The Sun.
London, England, 1847-06-11 00:00:00

LONDON, FRIDAY

Hon. Members into that branch of the subject. It was
enough for him to know that grave doubts were enter-
tained as to the legality of this measure without going
into the merits or demerits of the punishment with
which it proposed to deal. It was enough for him to
know that the measure was disapproved of by all the
judges of England, Ireland, and Scotland, to induce
him to call upon the House to pause before
they adopted it. But there was another
difficulty in the way of the passing of this
measure. It did not define the =use of the punish
ment to be substituted for transportation ; and until an
Act dsclaring what it should be were passed, no judge
of this realm would have power to pass sentence upon
any criminal whatever, who might have subjected
himself to the punishment of transportation.—(Hear.)
He was not prepared to deny that there were at present
many cases punishable by transportation which might
be punished by something less severe. There
were also many cases punishable by death, such
as murder and arson, in which the next severest
punishment to that of death was necessary for
the safety of society. Did they wish to hold
out instead of the punishment of transportation, an inde-
finite punishment. He called on them to pause before
they gave a sanction to such a measure es this, which
was unconstitutional in all its parts. He should
not feel himself justified in going into Committee
on this Bill, but unless he heard a distinct
pledge from her Majesty's Government that this should
be but a temporary measure; he would oppose it in its
every stage.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, no one in this House
can doubt the great professional ability of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman who had just sat down, and if this
question was one in which we had to deal with the legal
interpretation of words, I would be sorry to dispute with
that Hon. and Learned Gentleman. But I must say that
I cannot fail to express my astonishment that the
Learned Gentleman who is so well acquainted with his
profession, in which he has attained so exalted and
deserved a position, should have shown such a
total ignorance of criminal law in this coun-
try.—(" Hear, hear." from the Ministerial benches )
He thought that not many years ago capital punish.
ments, for a considerable number of offences, had been
remitted, and yet it had been urged that such a course
was illegal. And in the case of many of the sentences of
death, although passed upon the prisoners by the Judge,
yet the same Judge immediately after wrote to the Se-
cretary of State, representing that it would be advisable
to extend the royal pardon to the prisoner. Again,
with respect to transportation, why, the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, when Solicitor-General, took it
upon himself to recommend that transportation should
be suspended altogether for two years—(Laughter, and
" Hear, hear")—thus bringing the law into contempt—
(Laughter)—making void the sentences of the Judges,
and not even breathing to the Government that the
course he was recommending was unconstitutional and
illegal.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir JAMES GRAHAM explained, that before he
left office transportation bad not been done away with,
and therefore the opinions of the law advisers of the
Crown had not been asked or given.
Lord J. RUSSELL had then been mistaken on the
point. But remission of sentences had been practised
during many years, and had been sanctioned by the
authority and names of the most learned judges. Now,
nothing so well resembled merely detention until they
could be transferred to a fixed place, where they could
be employed upon some public work as this, and the Act
went on to state that they should continue there as long
as one of her Majesty's principal Secretaries of State
shall direct, or until he could be transferred or become
entitled to his liberty, or until his return to prison may
be directed. There he was to remain until the time
when his sentence should expire. What was done under
this Act was this, that those sentenced by the
Judges were sent to the hulks, put to hard labour ac-
cording to a regular system which was adopted; but at
length a period of four years was fixed, at the expiration
of which, if they behaved themselves well, they would,
according to the established practice, receive pardon
from Her Majesty, signed, as usual, by one of the prin-
cipal Secretaries of State, and then the term of seven
years, supposing a person to be sentenced for that term,
was not carried into effect, but considered commuted,
by confinement in the hulks for these four years. This
system had been carried on from 1824 down to 1847,
and during the time when the learned and eminent per-
sons he had mentioned held the office of Lord Chancel-
lor, and during the time many others learned in the law—
being the law officers of the Crown—it came down to 1847,
when the Hon. and Learned Gentleman spoke ; and yet
(luring all that time no one raised a doubt as to the
practice. And here were judges passing sentences of
seven years, thinking that every man would be sent
to New South Wales. (Chi ers and laughter)
Well, it was the constant practice for Secretaries of
State—of Lord Sidmouth, Sir Robert Peel, and all
others who had held that office regularly—to set at
nought the sentences of the judges, and to send the pri-
soners whom they had sentenced to the hulks. His
belief was that such was not the intention of the Legis-
lature, and that it had been carried out by the several
Secretaries of State, the judges knowing what was done;
and he (Lord J. Russell) considered that the Act was a
sufficient authority for its being done. Then the
Learned Gentleman said, " You are making a great
change in the practice, and you now propose that there
should be imprisonment for a certain period, labour on
the public works, and a ticket of leave, or exile,' as
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman called it, to a distant
colony, instead of the ancient:system." Why, he must
say, that he did not believe that the Judge considered
that the sentence would be carried out in all its inte-
grity, when the persons they had sentenced were sent
to the colonies ; it was quite impossible to do so, be-
cause the assignment system had been proved, as his
Honourable Friend had stated, to be a system of
slavery; and at Bermuda the convicts were employed
at hard labour in the harbour. One judge, on circuit,
might sentence two persons to transportation. One
might go to Bermuda, and the other to Australia.
They would undergo two different sentences, but the
sentence of the judge would not affect either of them,
one way or the other. That was the change. When ho
was Secretary of State, he put a stop to the system of
assignment, and Lord Stanley, when he came into office,
propounded an elaborate system of probation, conjoined
with labour upon the public works. But the Act was
not changed. The sentence of transportation,
wherever carried into effect, as the convict by
despairing of abceding to the assignment system in New
South Wales, whether on the public works in Bermuda,
or whether on the system of probation in Van Diemen's
Land, whichever plan was carried out the sentence of
the judge remained the same. And then the Honour-
able Gentleman had stated, and others had done so
before, that they were to have another system by which
a certain period of time was to be spent in confinement
here—that the employment of some on public works in
this country, and of others on the public works in
the colonies, was not only highly unconstitutional but
illegal.—(Hear, hear.) One system might be wiser
than the other, and more efficacious; but that there
should be any difference legally between one system and
another was what he was utterly unable to conceive.—
(Hear, hear.) And then, with respect to tickets of
leave, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman represented
that a person with such a ticket might travel where he
liked; but a ticket of leave like the assignment system,
was a system 01 severe restriction by the colonial law,
and by means of colonial officers; it was a system
different from exile or banishment, it might
be a good or bad one, but it was not
a system in which the sentence of the Judge had any-
thing to do. The question is one as to what is the best
system, when the sentence of transportation had been
passed, of carrying it into effect ; and havieg stated
thus much for the purpose of vindicating the Govern
ment from the charge of introducing a system
at variance with the law, he was content to
rest the defence of the measure upon the
speeches of his Hon. Friend near him (Sir G. Gre)),
the Under Secretary for the Colonies, and of the Judge
Advocate (Mr. C. Buller.) He thought that the system
now proposed would be an improvement upon the pre-
sent system. They must, he thought, adopt some system
or another, The state of Van Diemen's Land—the horri-
ble accounts which were received from it would not allow
the late Government to continue transportation with the
same prospects as those which attended it some years
before. Being abandoned, it was obvious that they must
have devised, for the two years for which it was proposed
to suspend it, some means of employment for the per-
sons who would have in this altered state of things to
stop in this country. The Hon. Baronet the Member
for Dorchester stated that there were not sufficient
gaols for the imprisonment of all those who might be
sentenced to transportation. If this was so, then they
must have some subsidiary means, as, for instance, work
in the hulks, employment of some kind In connexion
with the public works, or of such a nature as to be
industrial and reformatory in its character.
He thought that as many years ago they had taken
away the punishment of death for various offences, so in
like manner they should do away with the punishment
of transportation for other offences. But that change
was not to be done without great deliberation, and it
would have been therefore unadvisable to introduce in
this session any Bills doing away transportation alto-
gether for a variety of offences, or for clearly
defining to what offences only transporta-
tion should apply. With these explanations he
trusted the House would consent to go into Committee
of Supply. It had been too much the habit not to con-
sider that while they were enacting that certain colonies
should be constituted penal settlements, they were for-
getting that in transferring crime from their own country
they were thrusting upon the colonists the very off-
scourings of society.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
House divided, when there appeared—
For going into Committee
Against it
Majority —4B
OUT-PENSIONERS (CHELSEA AND GREEN-
WICH BILL.)
This Bill was read a third time and passed.
POLICE CLAUSES BILL.

The report on this Bill was brought up and received.
PASSENGERS ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

This Bill was read a third time and passed, and several
amendments agreed to.
HIGHWAY RATES BILL.

Oa the order of the day for the third reading of this
Bill,

Sir W. JOLIFFE opposed the further progress of the
measure. The operation of the Bill was to throw the
cost of what were mere parish roads upon the public.
After a few words from Sir GEORGE GREY,
The Bill was read a third time, and passed.
The following Bills went through Committee:—Baths
and Washhouses Bill, Herring Fishery (Scotland) Bill,
Drainage of Lands (Scotland) Bill, Custody of Offenders
Bill, Corn Importation (No. 2) Bill, Navigation (No. 2)
LoInCE t heisLAßUillSE:244BlbLroLu.sht
Bill, Royal Marine Service Bill.
The reportPOup
up and
agreed to.