The Sun.
London, England, 1815-06-22 00:00:00

MILITARY PUNISHMENT.

Mfr. 111ENETT rose to Move- for leaee to-bring
in a-Bill to restrict the infliction of military punish-
ment in the army. lie said that front all he could
learn, and he had Made rely extensive inqifirics
cis the subject; flogging neter prt.duced • ally.
amendment in the army. This was•proved by a.
document he held in, his hand This document
strewed that in the 10th rogiment of Hussa:s,:,
there were tto. fewer than 62flor.tged from the 14th
of February, 1813; to the 14th of Fehruarv, 1814 c
and some had reeeryed 600, some -five linnttr;,uh'-
and some four hundred lashes, in so much tb
there had- been fortrteetc thousand tine hundred
lashes inflicted in one veer in that regident. Yet
in the next six ,months there, were .32 lashedill
-
the same regiment. This yroved that flogging-
was not the right mink 'n im)trOVitig the army.
Thetoctnander-in-Clklef brut 1 c.rmaret. tt c.rec-
atm &r rCCOTUmenda(ion that there should not be
above a certain tuttither of lashes inflicted. list
in, most instanres it appeared that -the masi-
innni-of the Commander-in-Chier• directions Was
the in initntym of the actual infliction. It miss ;HI
possible for the 'Commander-in-Chief to attend to
every particular case. It appeared from the do-
ttnnents he hail recourse to, that there trere 500,
400, and 300 lashes inflicted 'for conduct unbe-
coming asoldier ; and %Own it was considered what
I V- fling (4,oces may he deemed unbecoming st sol-
dier, could it be said dna the discretion es' inflicting
-such a :punishment 'for such an undefined er me
was •not,too much for a Court. martial However,
tf flogging were productive of any cons; terabit,
are endnient in the army, there wo,!ti be some
'plea for it. But ;it generally destroyed its
victim. Ws.ile the lash stripped the hark, de511.3.1.
f wined round t e soul. 'All the feelings of manly
pride were cut up by it. Whitt,' it mangled the
body, it broke the spirit and &Traded the Mind.
llrhy s:tould such a system of nunishm:mt be con-
tinned ht liugland, which had been iliscontinued
in foreign nations ? Flogging formed a part in
the military system of- no other nation but this.
It Was -not used in the French armies. It was
oboltshed in the Prussian service in the last cani-
paign. Was there any 'thing peculiar in the
nature of am Enelish soldier that required a more
:degrading: and more cruel punishment than
the soldiers of other equntlies ? No person-
would dare tredt his own fume animal at. Charing
Cross 'as cruelly as souse of those' English soldiers
were used. •Indeed, he bad been
.infortned.of
ins
stances, whets-the bravest soldiers had fainted at
the hare sight of the tortures of their co
m
He left it tii the judgment of the House to say
whether some legislative provision ought not to
he made-to abolish all such punishments. lie
thought some provision ought to be made to pre-
vent, under any -eircumstaiees, the number of
lashes exceeding 100; and concluded with moving
for leave to brink in a Bill for limiting the ma-
ber of lashes inflicted by Courts Martial in the
,army. „ .

Colonel l'Atmr.ti was sorry to renew, in nny
manner, the qUestion of the Cont t-Martiat on Co-
lonel Quentin, • Wlich hood been induced to
.drop, ou hefting- that that Officer haul again been
ordered on service with his regiment ,but as the
list of punishments in the 10th produced by Col.
'a 'in his defence had been stated by his Hon.
Friend As the ground of his motion, he could not,
in justice to 114; own conduct, avoid entering into
an explanation of the. subject. With respect to
the general question of corporal punishment, it
could only. be justified by its necessity.; but dis-
Cipline was essential for the Government of the
At-my. Ilk did not: pretend 'to undev,tnnd the
subjee.t better than other OfEcers, but co,_
teuded that none but military then were eon,-
petent to &bide-, and that -he g4ve credit to
the motives - his 'lmmutable Fricod and

others who bad hronghlt •forwiird this
it had been productive. of serioii,. tnisehiet to
the. service, by- encouraging. insubord nation in.
Lite soldiers, and -:checking the cxe,rtions of the.
.ocers in.prev,enting it. The lion. INl.A•inher
entic.44 1)9 iiikaicUPg

was mare. teeegsarv---,ntnw-
neee-sity was not disputed ,20 years ago, y'llen
• the _army was on -so-s-mall, a scale, that 'mei-.
merits_ only admitted or.. retainefl.
,those of good
character,; 15114- of late 'years. front' time increase Of
the :estalilishmerit, men of-all desiriptions were
'enlF-sfed,.anil-those- of: the very woi:st cliaraci.ers,
were kept in the service.. _ With respeet,to. the
ret,,imeut lie had beliinged t'o "lie. hoped to justify
the system he lm pro:sned„ and • to•"s+tristy the
I-I mist that it= hail co atpletelv answered the- pti,r7
poses of . Regiment had "been
quartered in LitiilPti under Colonel Quentin, pre-.
vious to its going abroad, and it was to. its re-
laxer! discipline at home th att he punishments which
had been found necessary-on service were to be
imputed ; on the -arrival of the,regintent at Lisbon,.
the whole were a state of drunkenness-and
disorder,which it was his indispensible duty, for
the sake of the regiment and the service to put a
stop to. He did not punishi a single man till lie
had given warping to the whole •• but by a firm
Mid consistent conduct, in less than. a Month the
regiment, from the worst state of discipline!, was
in as good order as any regiment in - the' service".
During two months that he. had held the coin-
mand, only nine men were punished, and during
the next two months, the regiment-being under
thec(immand of Colonel' Roharts, the same dis-
cipline was kept up with as fei punishments:—
On Colonel Qhentin's return to the regiment, the
discipline fell away immediately, till, at last, the
excesses vi the men,brought on the disgrace con-
veyed in the 'censure of Lord Wellington. Had
Colonel-Quentin pursued the same system, the
same grind order must have continued; but where
only one in twenty, were punished, climes could
not be prevented, Mid -yet without effecting the
benefit, upon which alone -corporal punishment
could be justified; malty more men were punished.
by Colonel Quentin th in by Colonel Robarts him-
self.. The Honourable Member peoCeetled to point
out instances of Colonel -Quentin's inconsistency.
in punishing the men. .. .
Colonel
of the Hon. Colonel commenting on the
goon interposed, to suggest the im-
proprietyconduct of Colonel Quentin at w period-subsequent
his (Colonel Palmer's) conitnand of •the.regi-.
meat, and at the present time, when that Officer
was commanding his regiment abroad.

COL PALMER resumed. He said he felt himself
justified in the observations be had made, as be
considered Colonel Qaentin to have been the means
of dragging hint before the Flonse in the present
discussion.- He knew that many of his (Colonel
Fs) friends had been influenced by the.defence
• which Col.Quentln had made on his Court-Martial;
and knowing, as he did, the great prejudice that
• had been excited against him and. Col. Robarts, he
on_ly, wished to prove that. his system was better
than
.Colonel Quentin's; at the same time that he
%email' only attribute tlie•alteration he had made tti
it t6-a-defteietrcy,of jOgnient. Redid not Wish
to impute improper motive.s tti this9l4er but,
on the.eontrary, he was convinced -that lie had
acted with ffumantty towards 'the men:: 'At the
same time he would say, that what lie had stated'
wt} the Court Martial respecting dogging, wins
e u-
` to. no:credit whatever, He denied that the
men had been flogged till they 'fainted ttway.--7
Snme men were constitutionally better able to
hear the punisltment than others.; and be- had as
often seen them taint away at iheir prayets as at
their halberts. So:ue men could• hear•soo ta,ho
better than others could support 100; and he had
seen-instances of men who had received 400 lashes,
who within an hour afterwards were found dead.
drunk in the streets. The Commanding °dicer was
responsible for all suentrishments, and.was coat,
pelted to have a Surgeoh, present, to see that they
were not ton severe for't heconstitution of the cut-
,
prit. In short, our System of military punish-
ment was not near so rigid as that in the French
army. Marshal Sault had -shot an Odicer for
being guilty Of plunder ; and in the Portuguese.
service, the punishment was more severe than its
the British, beyond all comparison. The Hon.
Colonel concluded with declaring it to be impos-
sible to preserve discipline in regiments on foreign
service,
,and-Particularly•in the cavalry, without
this System of punishment. .
Colonel-Woon had only to observe, in reference
to flue 10th Hussars., that he was informed that
regiment was now in such perfect condition, as to
be partienlarli complimented by the Earl of th-
*bridge, and pronounced by him superior to ltis
own regiment, the 7th, whith he had studied to
bring to the highest possible perfection:, Ile de-
nied that it was a fair calculation to multiply the
number of punishments in the Hon. Mover's cases,
by the namber of regiments in the service, as in
litany regiments -such pnujshments were very rare.
He saw no danger in trusting to the discretion of
Commanding. Officers, whose feelings were , as
merciful and I-mina:4e as those of any other men,
and saw no great alleviation of severity or suffer-
ing in abolishing corporal punishme::A, when the
punishment of death must in a variety of cases, as
that of mutiny, be substituted for it. Military
men who had 'served abroad, were the only judges
of this question, and such glowing and pathetic
descriptions, as those of the lion. Mover,
:,Were
likely to have a very injurious effect upon the mind
of the army. • ' • •
Colonel Piss:v.(l;Am thought this a question Of
great delicacy and danger. it was hurl! to.-draw
the line between civil independence and military
insubordination. He believed corporal puitish-
-1""ts had become less frequent, not frOtn• tiny
orders that had. been issued by the Commander in
Chief, but from the discretion, good cOnducr, and
example of commanding officers abroad. 1-le de-
nied that there was any analogy between-the artny
and navy; and as to the example of the French
army, he would ask, Was it for the conquerors. of
Vittoria, of which glorious battle the anniversary
will this day, to take an examplelioln the French ?
He trusted that news. would soon arrive Of a Ito:-
ther practical and glorious a rgwitent agaizisye'tt-
ing up the French army as a Model to be impli-
citly followed by the British. .
Sir. VV. SMITA ‘riSlie.d the total abolition of a
punishment already exploded in many of our public
schools, and which must always degenerate mild
disgrace its &jeer. He had no doubt thinking
men (if any then going into the army eoultl be
snpposed to think) must be distoitraged from en 7
tering the ranks by tlte liability to, this degrading
lAttelslitn,en,t,; and Ow,ci t.i.i kennets, hr. NTotild

hare .thr OfTirell
:get an examnie to Om men hy
their a!t,ti,iettee frfini-tlie !piffle; btit ifi
in;; dill: he I.Vtlatt'VCr tycll
tits GifiCer3 OP the liit..;ll--Araly at the pfe.beitt
!day.

A Member, 'Ailiiisestiartie ate c 6,11,- hot_ le":11.rt,
thi• tli•gratt..i:io,i of awl cx.-
111)cti911 or 311 orothiced iii a yoniig.iwrson,
by being ernploye,.(l to iiiiiict this shocking iiiish•
'thew,

, .
Lord PALNIERSI'On •said the' nractice ..6fr the
at•ln`y, and order of t.iie Corinna-inlet% in Chi..f,-) Kcl
already greatly etnitriblited
pitilishinefit less fregtient. wa,•-ev.c.ty Ills-
pnsitiOtt op`quA.t‘ters to dimpenSe With• i+
tfs possible; and to-The operation"OtHheSe causes,
already-Hui sensibly felt,' he thought it iboitin be
left'4.t he House. 'rite military code tyonlit
bc-ScarCely less Sangitinary, as et:4)nd! imilislithenr.
must .neCk!ssarily 'be sUbstituted in • many: cases,
and circninstanCes-might occur at ituiiie,:as- te-
hellion or insurrection, which IyOnld render c or!.
perat'punlslithent as necessarry as in foreign-ser-
vice. Other'inods•of• ptinishineht were •stibsti-
tilted as far, as • possible : bitt total- abolition 11*
cdrisidered wholly inadmisSible.

.-
limit s h propositionouli
lt he-
fore
.iese
to. that excessive 'severity which-at present was.
withobt limit. He was certainly a warm friend
to the principle advocated by the Hon. Mover;
he' had at 'a former period-endeaVoured tO'intro.
duce the piinciple of linsiiing the puniShttient of
flogginglaY•a clause in the Mutiny. Bill. it was
consistent with the Coirs'titutioir th:ir tbere should,
be some limit to a ponishmentrwirich, in. many
cases,' nature could not-sust'lie. It had, hereto-
fore, been' the practice to condemn men fo severe
punishment, 'and because they' could not support
the whole ofahose punish-ments at-once, they re-
ceived the' at different times, as it were, 'by in..
stalthents. This: shocking - practice, • it appeared,
was now discontinued. Certainty, the -present
Commander in Chief had made -great'andsincere
exertions to abolish' flogging as far t-t 3 lie 'could ;
'but there might come-a Commande,r iu Chief of a
different '-Character, •and what was -wanted was
a legislative enactment to regulate and -limit
the' punishment of flogging. Thoie'siho..voted
'against the •motiOn, must be • prepared to say,
That there should he no litnitation to military
punishment. ile was certainly happy that the
subject .had-again come under consideration, as
fact's must 'convince-every -one that fornier dis-
cussions of the question had produced inore'ketod
iliait almost 'almost any other that had eaerlakers
place in the Honse. The Hon. and-Learned Gen•
tleman'then adverted to whdt had been sankts to
the presence of a satgeon•during military punish..
Ment ; bur this, 'so far'fivat being a proof of le.
nity was actually demonstrative of cruelty. .Fur
what wars the sturgeon there i but, to -ascerrAin
lento much torture the syretehetrvictim conic! bear
without' its Occasioning his death. As to the na.
lure of the limitAtion, that was to'he considered
hereafter. For his part he thought the giebtest
nutaber of lashes should not exretal one hunttred ;
other Gentlemen might think a greater monner
necessary, hilt he hoped they .would all aL.ree
the principle ; and that even the Noble Lino (p.a.
merstoo) would so far agree ith oim, oc tuoret
consideration; -a's to allow the Bill 'at least to be
brought in. .
MANNERS .SUTTTT said-, whatever might bas
the statement's or argumeats 'of Hun- Gentlemen,
the. proposition submitted to the 1101n.' 'was a
plan t.o abolish flogging as a military
at home, and to limit .icabroad ; whether or
not those Hon. Members believed in the neeessity
of the measure, they mtvit: at least .lic'kpow-
ledge • that the prop.,sed_. alteration ..vas a most
important one. For the lastotheer years corporal
pimishments had been graclualtand grearly (le-
aning. -.A clause had heel) • iutrodueed into
the Mutiny Bill, allowing. of imprisonment
and in many instances this clause hail been
made available. in' the. last year there had beets
laid before, the Priiree Regent ,reports of only
sixty-four General Coarts-Marti 11, on non-vom-
missioned officers and privates ; of thebe 19 were
abroad, and 43,4 home ; in, seven cases ,only was
the sentence. flogging ; two of tho.:e were re-
nutted, and in five the punishment was inflict-
ed. It certainly was in contemplation still fur-
ther to diminish corporal punishurent. His Noble
Friend had - introduced into the Mutiny Bill, a
clause to deprive. soldiers of an increase of pay as
.a punishment, and Allis would come in ; and of
corporal infliction, a great change its the. system,
was working its way, awl .no doubt, ac-
complish_its end better than by direct enactment.
The Honourable and Learned Gentleman had pro-
posers to limit t!te punishment of offenders to
an hundred lashes ; if this were to he the case,
the systeal would retain all the odium of its
character, and at the same rime tell the efficiency
of its operation. •Wirb regard to, taking out
men to receive a §econd part of a sentence, lie had
no (tomb( that it was illegal ; and an otti,:er of
great merit, for this.act, hail been brought to a
court martial and cashiered' for it ; • nor could any
merit or soliei6tions obtain his. reinstatement.
The'Right Hon. Gentleman adduced many aro-
mentspgainst the proposed Bill, and said he bad
this leading objection to the measure, that it would
Introduce the inconvenience of having one law for
Off troops abroad, and another for them when at
home. under all these circumstances, he would
oppose, the Bill. • '
Mr.-Fon:3n said, he Tvvis in favour of. the pro.
posed measure ; from the experience of. twenty
years in -India, he could.. say, that in those regi-
ments where there was most fogging (litre was
least real aliscipline. The •Hon. Member adverted
to ti practice which formerly prevailed, of letting
out grot: shops for the I)cm-fit of the COnlnotn.k
• ing Officirs• of garrisons. and afterward!:,of
ni7.hilig the men for that drunkenntss which had
be'en etscoaraged.
Mr. A. Roanasos said, since the year 1786 the
practice alluded to by the Hon. (icnticnnto (Mr.
,
Forba,) relative,tirthe disposal of grog shops itt
hurl been put a stop TO.
FOrBES eplaitted.
Sir F. Busr37.-.-r co!tii) not consent to give rr tie
leaf cute upon so interesting a question. -He
ervun w . hoevur much lie ielt obli
s' geit to his lion.
forbrinef.ipg forward the ,nbject, y, tart r,. is
late lietiOd of the Sessiou Inccooler-u7: hot* cleat

anii very important advantage would be obtaipirl ;
lie would therefore suggest to his Hon. Friend to
withdraw his motion for the present, and bring
it -ou again early in the ensuing session, when "a
fuller attendance might be expected. Now he
had only to complain of a want of numbers, and
not of the disposition of Hon. Members, who
appeared to consider the question with a degree
of attention and feeling highly honourable to
to their character. The Right Hon. Gentleman,
in stating that military punishments had . di-
minished, had only spoken of General Court
Martial, whereas, for this subject, Regimental
Courts-Martial would have been much more im-
portant ; and he was surprised, with the Right
lon. Gentleman's means of information on the
subject, that he ,had not said more on that head.
He did not agree with his Honourable Friend
as to limiting the punishment ; he thought it
was disgraceful that it should exist at all. Some
Gentlemen who justified the practice did so only
on the plea of necessity, and yet that necessity
was not shown ; it did not exist in any other army,
and every other people were shoatal at it. At
present the English Officers laboured under a pe-
culiar difficulty, because many of them were not
disposed to use the lash, and_ no punishment
had been spbstitnted in hs stead. TheHonmirable
Baronet continued to argue against the practice,
and said the advocates for the abolition of it had
on their side the authori:y of his Royal HighnesS
the Duke of York. The --Right Hon. Gentleman
bad declared the practice of inilleting,punishthent
At different times foe one offence to be illegal, but
what satisfaction was this to the soldier who had
so suffered ; hesides,..this was the, first time he
had heard that the practice was illegal. The lion.
Baronet adducedsorne cases to shew the necessity
of abolishing flogging in the army, and said good
conduct was to be obtained as much by rewards
as by punishments --r en were goTernell by hopes
•and fears, and where the one was extinguished' the
other must operate in its stead. This principle he
considered to account for so many punishments
being thought necessary in the British army. After
•some other observations to the same effect, the
Baronet, in conclusion, declared his satis-
faction at the tact hick had appeared, namely,
that the odious practice %yea rapidly going out
of use.

• Lord I'ALMEFSTON and Air. M. SUTTON -
`riained.
13AzttiGTou did not see the epediency of
eny I(..gislative provision on this subject,. which,
did not think would answer the end. The pro-
g7eis of opinion would do. much, and it would
I. hctka to leave the question Ar!th the Officers
slimy. • -_

, ti:pwA.an BULLER that no Captain
the Navy Could take upon himself, as hod been
.asserted by the Hon. Baronet, to punish and dis-
iniss a seaman without an order from the Adtniral
:under whom he served, or from the j3oard of Ad-

Sir V. BtiRnETT, in explanation, said, that Iris
yncaning bad teen misconceived, he having taade
Do such assertion.

„
Mr. ISEZ.;NETT replied ; after which the clues.
-tion.w.as -4n4 the motion negatived withou
division.

. Lord PALMERSTON obtained leare to bring in a Bill re-
sp.cting certain deductions from the half-pay, and also a Bill
• to enlarge the powers of the Commissioners of Chelsea sad
.reenwiA Hospitals, on the s,ubjeo. of granting pensions.
, Mr. ,MELLISfi moved, that the .accounts, of Balances of
Public Monefin the hands of the Bank, fora series of years,
rtipto the 7th-of April, 18 15, shOuld be laid before the }louse.
Ordered. • , •

The Report of the Signal Station Bill was received, and the
Bill orderred'to ht read a third time to-morrow.
The other Orders Were 'then disposed of, and the House
sdjotqied at gpsyEN o'Cipcx,