The Sun.
London, England, 1847-05-11 00:00:00

TRE SUN, LONDON y TVESDAY EVENING,

pay the rates that the landlords in England . had complained ;of the imperfection of the measure, but
should do the same.—(Hear, hear.) Now, was that the imperfection of any law was no reason for departing
wise, was it pause, was it just, was it safe to create from the good principle which it might contain, and
such an anomalous state of things between two countries? trying measures which might aggravate the evil which
Let them tell him upon what ground, upon what argument, the law was intended to remedy. It was upon these
they could resist the demand to grant them the same grounds, and from the conviction that the amendment
privilege which they were willing to allow to the Irish would render the whole scheme of legislation useless,
tenants ? Well, it none of their Lordships would deny that he asked their Lordships to refuse their assent to it.
the character of the state of things in England, let them ' After a few words from Lord WALSINGHAM,
tell what was the safeguard which they could rely upon i Lord MONTEAGLE said that, feeling as strongly
in introducing such a system as this into Ireland. Was ' upon this subject as he did, he must be allowed to state
Ireland more wealthy, were her means of permanent j why it was that he supported this amendment. He had
employment greater than those of England ; were the I formerly stated, with regard to this measure, that the
relations between landlord and tenant more confidential, ! public et large were frequently led astray by supposing
more thrifty, and was she more capable of employing . that what worked well in one country must necessarily
labour than encouraging pauperism ? But it was note- ; work well in another ; and therefore they argued that
rious that the reverse of all this was the fact, ,I because the poor-law answered in England, it should
If there was security in the relations between the land- ! equally apply in Ireland. Many of his statements would
lords and tenants, and that that security existed in ; indeed
analogous be inapplicable,
oplticatbhloes,eitinthEe
ustgaltaendo.f tThihnegsGoinvelrrnemlaentidt
England, he saw no reason why the law with respect to wars
in l
Ehnegi r
'uknewiits
into e legislators.—(Hear.) g
considerationisl au) ir s
.
the two countries should not be assimilated. He did !
fish would find,
law ucli,lh
however,witout thatmod ifiifeattihoenys.intthreoyduweeerde tehneaEctiiingg-
not know whether he would not venture to trust such a
'l-ietahr2t
.
power as that proposed by the Bill, to Scotch proprietors 1 thepart
veryosfhould l a
and Scotch tenants. Looking at the intelligence ofLordships
the farmers, to the habits of the country, and to i land the poor-law rate had been recognised from time
the extent of their farms—their knowledge of their immemorial as binding upon all classes, but in Ireland
respective duties—it could be carried into effect with' the law was altogether new, and likely, therefore, to be
more advantage; but he should be sorry to trust to the I viewed with distrust. There was great difference in the
operation of such a measure in England. (Hear.) ! imposition of a tax for the first time and the levying
But h - was certain of this that in Ireland it would be j of a tax which had been long in existence, and long re-
absolutely and entirely ruinous—(Hear)—and absolute cognised by the various classes who paid their portions
ruin not only to the landlord, not to the landlord prima- of the same. Of all times, the present was the least
rily, but absolute and entire ruin to the whole property adapted for the collection of a tax which, compared with
1
of the country, whilst the plan he proposed would create the other taxes now levied in the country, was as the
a body of independent labourers, and also a class weight of a mountain compared with the weight of a
of farmers. If there was a hope of effecting this object, mole-hill. Suppose that an alteration were to be
and without this object there was no hope for the social made, from a system of out-door relief to ons of
regeneration of Ireland—if there was a hope of effecting in door relief, or a change in the amount of
this object it was by promoting the interest of the occu- the taxation of the countryfrom lOs, in the pound to ls.
pier, by increasing the amount of labour on the land in the pound, then there
might be a. probability of get-
which he occupied. Really the principle enu- Ling the lesser amount collected, but when it was pro-
worsted by that Bill was so Utopian, not to say posed to raise the amount of taxation from Is. to 10s. in
so monstrous, that he could not believe that it the pound, it was
evident
ient that the larger amount could
would be entertained by such an assembly as never be collected.
id
sue-
this. If it could not be safely applied to England it was cess of the measure
eveonuwl
within
no
not tthesaenlaguusieneasasprtooptohseedhy
the rather
hands leave
of the
the whole
Go .
y
for them to show that it could be safely applied to Ire- the Noble Lord. He w
land. But he wanted to know what the circumstances responsibility of the
oer
t aebdl e
thet
o
Go-
were which rendered the adoption of the same principle vernment, so
that they should
measure l
to both countries dangerous. Perhaps he might be told turn round upon those Nobleu Lordats any
who time
supported
p b
that they could not trust the Irish landlords to make clause, and ascribe its failure to the operation of the
agreements with their tenants. That really was the clauie which they had introduced. He thought that the
only argument he had heard against the principle of his principle of the clause was, however, a sound one, and
amendment. He did not wish to take the burden from the only difficulty he felt_
.in supporting it arose from
the shoulders of one body and to place it on the his belief of the
impossibility of carrying out the mea-
shoulders of another, but he sought to affirm in this sure before their Lordships.
Bill a principle which he believed would be of Earl of
HARDWICKE considered that the opera-
the greatest advantage to the people of Ireland. tion of the poor-law had, in England, been the means of
He asked them to interfere with no existing agreement providingmuch benefit ; but was it to be supposed
a
—he asked them to violate no present law. He asked formoment, that if the poor's rates had
paid b
them to interfere with no existing contract or agreement beenyth the landlords alone, that this country
between the landlord and tenant as it stood at that mo- would have ever risen to such a height of prosperity, or
went, but this he did ask them:—That whereas the been enabled as
it then was to assist in ameliorating
principle is sound and just that the occupier, who alone the mighty distress
had the means of giving employment, should be induced and Ireland. TheNowhhleichLoorvderhung.bo
opposite ht ha
tfli
sitsa
tceocil nt
ht rayt
to give employment by a knowledge that a proper divi. the Government were anxious to give landlords an
siou of the burden would fall upon his own shoulders interest in the working of the poor-law; but was it to be
instead of another man's, he asked them to affirm that supposed that the landlords, who paid two•thirds of the
principle. He proposed in the amendment of which he rates, should be considered as parties likely to assist in I had given notice that, from the Ist of January, 1850, the beneficial operation of the measure ; his only object
tenants at will should become liable to the same condi- would very naturally be to reduce the expenditure. He
lions as those who had at present permanent leases. If felt it his duty, therefore, to consent to the amendment
that principle were sound, the question then came as to of his Noble Friend ; and he thought that in doing so,
its mode of application—and whether it was a safe one? he was acting with a due regard to the justice, the pros-
He did not apply it at once—he applied it prospectively; perity, grad the safety of the people of that country,
he left it to the tenants at will and to the landlords forthe Earl ST. GERMANS said the Noble Lord who had
next two years and a half to enter into this new ar-
just sat down had advanced a line of argument in respect
rangement. He knew the popular feeling upon this of the ex officio guardians founded upon an erroneous
subject. He knew the declamations that were made view of the English Poor -law. But he could not avoid
upon the hard-heartedness and griping hands of the Irish adverting to the attack which the Noble Earl had made
landlords. lie knew the indiscriminating, sweep- when he remarked upon him, as the bearer of messages
ing condemnation which this country was so much from the House of Commons. He might disclaim this
disposed to cast upon Ireland and upon at once and be done with it. He had not been the bearer
all things Irish. He knew bow ready people were to of messages from the House of Commons, but he did
say that they could not stop to pick the few grains of think proper to mention the opinion of a Noble Friend of
wheat from the bushel of chaff, and that they could not his who had been lately officially connected with Ireland,
inquire into the exceptions in individual instances. Ile and who had not habitually acted with a party ; he did
had heard that the landlords of Ireland were totally in- think it well to mention the opinion of that Noble Lord.
different to anything except collecting, in the most ra- But to advert to the argument of the Noble Earl—He
pacious manner, every thing that they could screw from had overstated the proportions of the rate levied, as he
the hard earnings of their tenants ; but he also knew would find by reports which lay upon their Lordships'
that they were proceeding to legislate for the purpose of table. The rate levied by the Bill was by far the most
laying upon the landlords those hardships which they equable, placing the grasping and the liberal landlord upon
charged them with inflicting. If such were the character a level, for the tenant was entitled, out of every pound
of Irish landlords—if it were the fact that there were of rent which he paid, to half the rate which was levied
instances of stich short-sighted capacity—if they thought upon him. The Noble Lord then reverted to the debates
that they could protect the tenant by this regulation which occurred both before their Lordships and in the
from the griping spirit of landlords—if they thought that Commons when the original Irish poor-law was intro-
the same landlord, who had the power of exacting the duced, and quoted at length from the opinions expressed
uttermost farthing from the tenant, and screwing out of by several Members of the Lower House on the
them every shilling and every penny that he could drag 5/. clause, all which, he said went to make
from him by any process whatever—did they believe it more stringent upon the landlord ; nay, more, a Corn-
that such a landlord would not protect himself against mittee of which the Noble Lord (then Mr. Spring Rice)
their legislation by such an increase of rent as would was Chairman, went so far as to recommend the imposi-
cover any possible amount of rate ? They tion of the whole rate upon the landlords. He greatly
said that the tenant had not got the money doubted as to the policy of the amendment, believing that
to pay the rate, and that they could not pay it. The it would deprive the Bill entirely of any chance of
fact was that the tenants did pay it—(Hear, hear)—it success.
was by them it was now paid, and all that they had to The Earl of MALMESBURY said he would explain,
do, was to produce a receipt for so much rate as part as briefly as possible, why he would support the Noble
payment for so much rent; could they believe that if, as Lord's amendment. He was an English landlord, as
they said, there was this spirit on the part of the some of their Lordships knew, without one acre of land
honest peasant to bid for land at whatever price it could in Ireland, and without any experience whatever of that
be obtained—if there was such a determined spirit on country. He had, therefore, hitherto refrained from
the part of the landlord to exact the uttermost farthing debates on Irish affairs ; but on this occasion a great
—did they entertain the delusion, that by saying, that principle was in question, and in that principle he was
the landlord should pay the rate, they would relieve interested. It was a principle which the members of
the tenant?—the landlord would exact the utmost rent, her Majesty's Government had adopted and affirmed in
muchwhc.h less Y
the tenant would pay. so that there would be so the English poor-law, which they bad produced,
rate collected. They might fancy that they brought in, and passed.' They affirmed then that the oc-
relieved the tenant, but in the meantime they did away cupying tenant ought to pay the rates. The principle
with the inducement to the tenant to employ labour. of the amendment was, therefore, no new principle, and
He would, perhaps, be met by
atala e asserti, that the if Ministers were opposed to it, he asked them why they
amendment would meet with
Government would make without being degraded—that unless it was altered. That was a universalconfession resistance did not abandon the poor-law existing in England, and
wch no enact a new law containing a new principle. But
was a confession which was fatal to all l what would be the consequences, he said, of the
trusted that in that House it would not be brought
he present amendment On this head reference
was one *ft
tbheenr. stirred against the payment of tithes to
r(lfughtt had been made to the disorders that had
forward as an argument,—(Hear, hear.)
were believed, that the principle
etherotestant clergy. He, however, denied the analogy
sound legislation, they should be firm in the application of
i g Ron aloneade tmigh
.t
_evince to them, and one
twoforcere ; they were. entirely different, as the
ms a
senoselevittaintg
hfor the country as
of it, and the prospective application would enable all history
parties to arrange it between themselves; but he hoped allusion had been
thatp rtoasele
that he should not undergo what ho considered the de- it was. There wa
gradation of hearing, in that House, as an argument, agreed ; but he could not advise,niislwahteic
for
h ae
that they would adopt a principle not sound in itself, and country as it was instead of what it ought to be,
Awsasl not
which would not answer in England, because there was the way to improve and benefit that country,
a passive resistance which they dare not encounter. He as they refused to assimilate the poor-law
of England
was not aware that he need trespass further upon their and Ireland, so long would discord continue ; they might
Lordships' attention in advocating the amendment of be twins, but they never would be twin sisters.
which he had given notice. He had shortly put forth Earl WICKLOW had always maintained the princi•
what he conceived to be its recommendation—its encou- ple that the rates should be paid by the occupier and not 1
ragement of labour—and that which would be fatal to by the tenant ; but although he supported such an
its rejection, namely, that in future it brought the in- amendment at the time the poor-law was passed, he
terest of the landlord and tenant to one dead level, and considered that the present moment was most inexpe-
would remove that mass of pauperism which threatened client to introduce it. It would cause muck bitterness
the available resources of the country, and the only between landlord and tenant, and would materially pre-
means of providing for which was the diminution of that vent the proper and desirable carrying out of the urea-
tenacity with which the tenant in Ireland clung to the sure. These were sufficient reasons to induce him to
occupation of his wretched plot of land, and the esta- vote against the clause.
blishment of an independent body of labourers, apart The Archbishop of DUBLIN rose amidst loud cries of
from the farmers. He did not think, unless his measure " question" to address their Lordships. He should not
was adopted, they could prevent that which support the amendment of the Noble Lord ; but at the
was acting as a continual flame in this country against same time he admitted that his principles were right and
Ireland—namely, the influx of a large body of labourers. sound.—(Hear, hear.) Still he believed that the plan
So lung as the rate of wages was higher here than there, he proposed could not, in the present state of things in
so long would that influx take place. He did not ask Ireland, be carried out. He was most desirous that the
them to consider the measure with selfish eyes, for their Bill should have a fair trial, and he was roost anxious,
sin would be visited on their own shoulders, and a retri- therefore, not to throw difficulties in the way of its
butive infliction upon this country. Let them consider working. He thought, as lie had said, that the clause
the question as judges deciding a question of life or proposed a healthy and a correct system of rating ;
death, and he asked no more for the Irish landlord and but still, in the present state of Ireland,
for the Irish labourer. It was such a measure, and such he conceived that the rate must after all
a measure only, that could be effectual for this country be paid by the landlords. But he feared that the poor
or for Ireland.--(Cheers.) tenants of Ireland were not either in a fit condition of
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE (who during his purse or mind to be induced to believe if they paid the
speech was frequently quite inaudible) said that he mites, that they would not be called upon to pay them
would venture to state to their Lordships that of all the again. He cited a case in which 1,600/. a year was saved
differences which they had had in the course of that ar- by' the guardians of a parish by the adoption of a better
gument on this important bill, the difference which the arid more direct mode of paying the rates. Although
the most
present judicious
state t that
amendment of his Noble Friend had made was the he considered that
the
ee plan
is tof the tenants paying the
most important. He said that not in reference to re.te was the best, h
the particular consideration adverted to at the outset could be adopted, he couldesn, andcl,in in the speech of the Noble Lord, on an observation made Ireland, consent to the insertion of such a clause into
upon a previous occasion. He was far from thinking the Bill.
that the consideration arising out of the privileges of the Lord REDESDALE said he could hardlyb reconcile the
two Houses of Parliament, ought to be disregarded, extraordinary argument which bad been against
Yet, leaving that as a subject of a subsequent consider- the proposition of his Noble Friend, becartiosught:
ation, he did wish to meet the Noble Lord fairly, and told that the principle was correct, but that from weretle
discuss this amendment upon its own merits, exclusive state of Ireland it could not safely be carried our. m No-
of any external consideration. The Noble Lord had thing could be more safe or more simple than the pay-
stated that he had no hesitation in stating that the re- went of the rate by the tenants. Why, if a tenant had
jection of this clause would prove disastrous in its con- hud a lease granted to him in which, for instance 3s. 6d.
sequences to both countries ; yet, he as confidently in the pound was deducted on account of the rates which
stated, that it was its adoption which would be he, would have to pay, where was the hardship that would
productive of these effects to Ireland ; and to be imposed upon him, and where was the ex-
the success of the measure, which he was justi- traordinary advantage which the landlords obtain—
fied in saying, was approved of by a great Much had been said, and, in fact, many Noble Lords
number of their Lordships. Those of their Lordships he.d argued the measure as if that was the sole ground of
who were most opposed to the principle of this Bill, had the measure, namely, the immigration of poor from Ire-
allowed many of the objections to the clauses which were land to Liverpool ; but if they wanted to keep them in
most objectionable to pass without dividing upon it, and Ireland they must afford them some encouragement by
even the Noble Lord himself said that he was one, and providing them the means of lucrative employment and
he was desirous of this Bill passing into a law. He by making it to the interest of the landlords to afford
begged their Lordships to consider what was the cha- them the employment they stood so much in need of.
ratter of this Bill, and that it required extensive ma- Much might be done in this respect by leaving the onus
chinery to be created, for the assistance of the board of of the rates on the landlord and charging him a smaller
guardians. The principles of the present Bill were en- rent. He would thus be spurred to use exertions to im-
tirely consonant with the principle of a measure adopted prove his soil and to realise greater profits. In Scotland
by their Lordships five or six years ago, and which, during the rates were paid by the tenants, and the greatest ad-
that time had been found to work well.—(Cheers.) vantage was derived from the plan there adopted.
The effect of this measure would be to throw the bur- Lord ROSEBERY explained the nature of the past
den of the rating entirely upon the tenant, instead of and present poor-law of Scotland.
imposing it equally upon all classes. He asked the Lord CLANCARTY said that, although he entirely
Noble Cord to reflect a little before he imposed burdens concurred in the clause proposed by the Noble Lord,
of this sort upon the tenants of the country. The and was convinced that they were indispensably neces-
Noble Lord had stated that they ought to allow them- sary, he yet noticed that as the House had not yet gone
selves to be influenced by the impression which any the length of stating, that they would confide a discre-
measure was likely to produce. He thought that such tionary power to the boards of guardians, or that the
a principle was not calculated to assist any Goverment first clause should be carried into effect—that no assist-
in carrying out its measures,—for some regard for the anceon either side would be expected from hint. Heshould
impression that any measure was likely to produce, was leave the matter to the House unaided by any vote of his
a isolutely indispensable.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble The measure was in the details inconsistent, as those
Lord had stated, that the burden would be dis- clauses which referred to the system of relief to be
tributed equally by his measure, and which would given were temporary, while the provisions for rating
remove much of the odium attached to the were of a permanent character. The existence of these
Bill, by the proceedings of the Government. two provisions in one measure was an inconsistency
That odium did not attach itself to the measure in cos- which he could not feel himself justified in supporting.
sequence of any fault of the Government. They stated He felt :much reluctance in withholding his vote, but
that they were about to impose a burden upon the coun- still upon the present oecasion he felt it to be his duty
try, and naturally it was not received with any degree to do so.
of pleasure, and it only remained for the Government to Lord STANLEY said that there had been, no doubt,
protect the tenant against any undue exercise of power in that discussion much which had given him the deepest
by the landlord. A new system of valuation of the land pain and anxiety. There was not one of their Lord-
had been introduced into the country, and with that and ships who in the course of that discussion had an-
other remedies he thought that sufficient good would be noaneed their determination to vote against his amend-
produced without adding to this measure—(which they merit, who had questioned the soundness of the
admitted to be attended with some degree of uncertainty,) principle upon which it was founded. The kind
the further danger incurred by the motion of nests with which their Lordships had listened to
the Noble Lord. It was the desire of the Noble him that evening would be a strong inducement to
Lord, as
he stated, tot
conciliate the people, him not to trespass upon their attention for any length
and yet he attempted iby affording a further of time, yet he must still bring a few points under the
facility for the infliction of taxation of the people. He attention of their Lordships. It bad been stated that

corn

elled in

the Irish Poor-law had for the last five or six years
worked well, but what was the Irish Poor-law?--(Hear,
hear.) It had been during that time strictly confined to
relief within the workhouse and to the destitute poor.
His argument was that it was the occupier of land in
Ireland who had the power of employing labour, and as
it was by the employment of the poor that the poor-rate
could be kept down, some inducement must be given to
them to reduce it as much as possible. He would sub-
mit that point to their Lordships, and also that of the
principle of out-door relief, for in the course of the de-
bate those arguments had remained untouched. He
felt most deeply that they were about to adopt for a
permanent legislation a mischievous and a dangerous
principle, and when they laid down this law for Ireland
they gave it a mischievous principle for its guidance and
operation. Reference had been made to the poor-law
of Scotland, where there could be no comparison, for
out-door relief was not known to the Scotch law, and
the landlord and tenant might make any agreement they
pleased with reference to which of them should pay the
rate charged, while it was a serious infraction:ot the law
to do so in Ireland. He regretted that he should be
compelled to differ from so many of those with whom he
had ever acted, and he yet more deeply lamented the
language and tone which had been used on this occasion.
lie regretted that the majority of their Lordships'
House were opposed to the principle which he wished
to introduce in the Bill. Whatever might be the fate
of this question, he could assure their Lordships that no
personal consideration would prevent him from doing his
duty. He trusted that those who had done him the
honour to support him on this question, and whose sen-
timents coincided with his own, would not think that he
exercised an unwise discretion in not giving their Lord-
ships the trouble of an unnecessary division. He should,
however, feel it his duty, for form's sake, and for that
only, to move this amendment on bringing up the report
on the Bill. He would do this in his own justification,
and in order that it might appear upon the journals of
the House that this amendment had been made.
The Archbishop of DUBLIN explained.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE denied that the
principle contended for by the Noble Lord opposite was
acceded to by the advocates of this measure ; and he
would have taken an earlier opportunity of proving this,
did he not see that the Noble Lord appeared to have
overlooked that a large majority of that House was op-
posed to the principles which he wished to lay down.
Lord MONTEAGLE moved that the Bill be reported
on in its present shape.
Lord CAMPBELL said, that in all his experience
he had never heard or seen a motion like that just
moved by the Noble Lord ; and he was convinced that
neither in the Irish nor in the English Parliament
could they find a precedent for it. It was the rule
that a Bill should be reported in the state in which it
was to be passed in a law. Yet he found that in the first
four clauses of this Bill two were limited in duration,
and two were left so far unfinished that they were with-
out limitation, reminding him very forcibly of Sir
Walter Scott's Melrose by moonlight. Buttress and
buttress alternately seemed framed of ebon and ivory
There appeared to be a strange misunderstanding be
tween the Noble Lords on this side, who opposed this
measure, and the Noble Lord opposite, for while one pro-
posed to limit the operation of the measure to the Ist
January, 1849, the other proposed that it should be
limited to 1850.
Lord MONTEAGLE then moved, that the operation
of the clauses authorising out-door relief to the able-
bodied poor should be limited (as we understood) to the
first of January 1849.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE then proposed that
the clause limiting the operation of the Act should be
inserted in the Bill for the information of the House; and
at the time of bringing up the report the Government
would feel themselves at perfect liberty to adot an course which they might think proper with respect to that subject.

The Earl of WICKLOW complained that the Noble
Lord had adopted the amendment which he had pro-
ip)sed to move, and he hardly knew what course he was
now to adopt. He thought the only course for him to
pursue, would be to bring forward his amendment, when
the amendment of his Noble Frivnd had been disposed o£
After a few words from Earl FITZ WILLIAN, and Earl
GREY,

The Archbishop of DUBLIN said that he thought
the object of the amendments of the Noble Lord was to
make one portion of the Bill of a temporary, and the
other, of a permanent character ; he had always ex-
pressed opinions unfavourable to a system of out-door
relief to the able-bodied poor, and it wag because he
entertained these unfavourable opinions, that he pro-
posed that that portion of the Bill authorising out-door
relief to the able-bodied poor would be of a temporary
character ; while the other principle involved in the
Bill, not being of a new character, and involving no new
principle, should be considered as permanent.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH thought it nothing
more than fair that the system of out-door relief for the
able-bodied poor should be allowed a trial before the
measure was made a permanent one.
After a short discussion, the clause was agreed to.
After some desultory conversation, the House re-
sumed, and the report was ordered to ,be brought up on
Friday next. _ _

Their Lordships then adjourned, at a quarter par
eleven o'clock.

•• HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 10.
DISCOUNT ON LOANS.
Mr. MASTERMAN said that nothing in the proposi-
tion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been stated
which was calculated to alleviate the feeling of uneasiness
that exists in the commercial world. In fact there ought
, to have been a joint consent between the Government
and the Bank. The arrangement made by the Right
Hon. Baronet the Chancellor of the Exchequer would
I simply be taking a sum out of the Bank, in order to
place the Exchequer in the situation in which the
:esheeGo-
vernment ought to be placed without such an effort. It
was not to be expected that at these several
quarterly periods of two or three millions of
deficiency that the Bank should advance the money
without some Government surety, and he would there-
foreti propose some addition to the resolution which the
Chancellor t
atohtfeattthhte}: Ethe et e
a
e
t ts
ought to be obtained by some other means, and he would
:titre
eho afi dnt pht
irbsoepaopds
dreeidet.ieonnt Iwouldhis bey
that the Committee were of opinion that nothing would
tend so much to relieve the
present pressure on the
money market as an assurance from the Chancellor of
the Exchequer to Parliament
nt that he had arranged with
the Bauk for an advance out ofthe •ue department of
the Bank, such advance to
be repaid out of the public
securities like the remainder of the loan.
Mr. GREENE conceived that the Hon. Gentleman
was not competent to move the amendment, inasmuch
as the motion for going into the Committee of the whole
e interest House was for raising th
on the loan in the
future instalments.
Mr. MASTERMAN said that he hadshown that the
amendment was part of the •
Mr. BROWN was proceeding.
House when loud cries
commencingco his address to the
Speak out " were heard from
several sides of the House, and the Hon er stated
that his voice was so weak that he could n M
otemb exert him.
self more than he did, and then
-- proceeded to say that
one portion of the nation was not consistent with the
other. They were aware that in the export and import
trade there was at the present moment great distress.
Much effort had been made in the provinces, and he be-
lieved that part of the object of the present motion was
to relieve the depression of foreign trade. No confi-
dence whatever was felt in the United States, and though
there were large orders at this time in Liverpool, there
was no sufficient inducement to send out the goods. The
case was the same in the interior among the manufac-
turers, and in Manchester there was the utmost
uneasiness prevalent in the several houses with
respect to the imports and the exports, and busi-
ness had indeed assumed a very serious aspect.
The condition of the country was this. The business of
the country was stopped, and day by day thousands of
her manufacturing labourers were being thrown out of
employment. It was a fallacy to tell him that there was
not sufficient money to carry on the business. At pre •
sent there were from thirty to forty millions of
sovereigns in circulation, and if a portion of that
amount were called in, and .one-pound notes substituted
for it, there would be amply sufficient gold placed at the
disposal of Government -to enable it to relieve the
country from the prevailing depression without touching
upon the principle of, the Bill of the Right Hon. Baronet
opposite.
Dlr. NE WDEGATE felt it to be his duty to state
that he had long predicted that the result of the mea-
sure of 1844 would be what it had been so graphically
described. It was impossible that any other result could
happen, for there was no practical man in the country
who did not agree with him, that his anticipations would
be fully justified. Let them, however, not incur greater
future danger by their endeavours to escape from the
past. He was of opinion that an issue of bullion accord.
ing to the present standard could not be maintained.
On a fair calculation the issue was twice as much AS the
bullion remaining in the bank. In 1798, the standard of
Elizabeth, which was silver, was altered to gold. lie had
the high authority of Lord Ashburton for such a state-
ment, and that silver standard was one of which the me-
mory of man did not run to the contrary, The Right
Hon. Baronet was in error, therefore, when he said that
the present standard was the one of Queen Elizabeth.
He could not help feeling—when he saw the Right Hon.
Baronet prepared to pass the mighty measure of free
trade in the last year, and, at the same time, determined
to maintain a system of currency adverse to that advo •
cated by the advocates of free trade--that the people of
this country were about to be exposed not only to a
foreign competition, but a heavy pressure r
in thei
monetary difficulties. By their present system, accord-
ing to the words of the member for Lancashire, they
must either send their gold abroad or starve the people.
One of the greatest dangers that could befall the
min_
try was to permit to have any power over the Bank of
England ; it would give the executive a despotic in-
fluence which they ought never,to possess; it would give
them a control over every man s property in England,
which was a power which they should never permit
either to be held or exercised. He hoped that the
noble Government lord at the head of the would
deeply consider this matter,_
hi
although he
might be compromised by s former votes
and although he may be anxious to retain the assistance
of those who were still more deeply compromised, to act
like an honest man,
as he believed he would, and save
the country from the evils pressing upon it. Whenever
they sought assistance, either from the pressure of the
supplies
home market, or the necessity forabroad, they
were met by this Act of 1844- For years himself and
friends had laboured against policy,
that and it was with
no exultation that they found their fears realised now.
The Hon. Member proceeded to read extracts from
speeches of Sir Robert reel delivered_ in 1819 and 1844,
to show that the effect contemplated by the measures
had not been realised.
With the fact before them of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer advancing the discount
on Government bills, with the mills
and workshops
standing idle, and yet tit the same time Wile mama