The Sun.
London, England, 1841-08-25 00:00:00

MORNING SUN

not to be revived.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It woulrl, in-
'df zd, be fatal policy in this country, if they suffered any
consideration to divert their attention from the manner in

which that state of things should be met and remedied. He
slid not think that they had a right to protect
• the landed interest as against the interest of tne
• manufacturer. If trade flourisjted agriculture must flourish
likewise. Let them take care of ',trade and commerce,
and agriculture will take care of itself ; but if they
neglected trade, the ruin of all would assuredly ensue. There
was one topic mentioned in her Majesty's Speech to which
he would advert. Her Majesty invited the House to consi-
der whether there was not a variety of the duties of trifling
amount, which might be revised without any c'etriment to
to the revenue. There was no difficulty in saying that an ample
field of inquiry was presented to the House upon that subject.
There were now upon one tarif 349 articles which produced a
revenue of 8,0501. There were 147 articles which produced
no duty at all, but on which there was a drawback. For his
own part he could only say that he rejoiced that the time was
come when the House must decide by whom and what
zrson the Government of this country was to be conducted.
He thought that ample time ought to be afforded to the
Hoase to discuss these questions.—( Hear, hear. ) Large
classes in the country would feel considerable disappointment
if the orily result of their deliberations should be that they had
advised her Majesty to substitute one set of persons for another
in government of the country—they would feel considerable dis-
appointment if no opinion were expressed in that House on
those subjects to which her Majesty had called their attention.
Those subjects were referred to an doubtful and ambiguous
language in the amendment proposed on the other side. That
language, perhaps, might be made more clear before the
• close of the debate ; not, indeed—for he did not expect
such —by the announcement of any particular
measure ; but that the House had a right to demand an tx-
plieit announcement of what was the line of policy which Gen-
tlemen opposite were prepared to follow up in the manage-
ment of these questions there could to no doubt.—(ol), oh,
and cheers from the Opposition benches.) He certainly hoped
that the discussion on the treseet occasion would not end in so
unsatisfactory a manner as that to which he had adverted.—
( Opposition cheers.) He could assure the Hon. Gent:eman
teat 'ae was as warns a partisan as any could be ; but, at the
same time, he should say that it was the duty of all public men
to consider these subjects with a view to putting them on a
basis which would lead the country from its present state. He
cared very little for an adverse vote of that House if it was
only to have the effect of transferring donourable Gen-
tlemen opposite to the Ministerial side of the House provided
the measures, of the soundness of which he was satisfied,
were carried out. There was no question, whatever might be
tie difficulties attending it, if it were founded on reason and
justice, that would not ultimately prevail. Therefore it was
that the principles of those moasures being founded on reason
and justice would the more they were diseased throughout
the country make it the more apparent that it was for the
geheial good of all classes to put the Corn-laws and the other
measures adverted to on a sound and practical footing. It
sat 'was therefore, he said, that whatever might be the re-
sult of the coming division, he should with confidence look
foreard to the period when those subjects would be carried
by a triumpht majority. Whether it was by those persons
with whom he was united, or whether it was Gentlemen
opposite, as he had:frequently seen them adopting the mea-
sures of their political opponents when they lotted a pressure
train without which they could not resist, that these, measures
were carried it was to him a matter of indifference if they
were brought to a satisfactory conclusion. (Cheers. )
sir. B. D'ISRA ELI said that he must declare, after all that
had occurred during the last Parliament, it was with surprise
he had heard the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat
down, appealed so frequently to the Right Hon. Mernoer for
:aruworth, for some developement of his future policy. The
Right Hon. Gontleman had terminated his speech with a pa-
trietic peroration, which sounded somewhat familiar in his
(Mr. D'lsraeli's ear; viz., so convinced was he of the truth of
*he prtnciples which he advocated, that whatever might be the
itoinion of the House, even though it might be adverse to
these princ pies, yet he should support them in Opposition.
Ifitd u e Rig it Hon. Gen leman torgotton the tiistingu.shed
sshices or etr. Wallace as Vice President of the hoard of
Teade, which had preceded the services of Mr. Hie -
'sisson. The progress of economical and commercial
fseiortn had been arrested by the progress of Parliamentary
reform. The Right Hon. Gentleman had spoken of the
ileport of the Comreitttee on Impart Duties as if that Report
had contained discoveries before unknown. He would not
teittervalue the importance of that document, and he thought
tie subject ought long before to have engaged the attention
te' the Government, but he had yet to learn that the data on
inch that Report was founded were new ; they ought to have
heen long known to the Government, and he was certain that
toeser os later the results arising from those dates must afford
:natters for legislation. But that was not the question before
the House or the country. The vote of want of confidence
had been tome to on the ground that questions so momentous
sou.d not be satisfactorily stiscussed if they were propounded to
ti,e lioure weak and incapable, and which had suffered a series
ofsieleats, which in any other reign would have heen consi-
thred as overwhelming. The country had ratified the' deci-
sien of the House, and the only question for them to consider
vas whether anything had happened since that vote to induce
tn. Flouts to put its eonfieence to the Government. On
-chat ereutal ceuld that confidence be claimed ? Was it on
tee ground of the diesoltition ? he result had shown that
then had no knowledge of the feeliugs of the ceuetry. Was it
es the manner in which the electioes had been conducted?
:he history of the country of girded no instance of a Mi-
oistry addressing a constituency in such language 2 What
could they say to a Minister woo, after the House of Commons
cad declared they had no confidence in him, and rise and defy
he opinion of that House, by:saying he had the support of the
Crown, which was the best support a Minister could have.
What tt ould they say to the clandestine champion which the
Government had sent round to every borough in the country,
petfainng the name of the Sovereign, as if the Majesty of Eng-
land had become the second. candidate of every paltry hole.
ice koala Lord doubtless recollected the words of one who
vas once an ornament of that House—that the Sovereign of a
faction was only the Sovereign of half of her people. He
could not believe that the machinations of any men calling
themselves Ministers—and why they called themselves Ministers
was to him still a mystery—(a laugh)—he would not believe
that they could have succeeded in making the Sovereign of this
country the Sovereign of a faction, but if such infatuation
should produce such miserable conseauences if her Majesty
were merely the Sovereign of the Whigs. She was not the
Sovereign of one-half, one-quarter, or even one-eighth of her
people, but a miserable section, few in numbers: although
foymidable from their name and principles, which had ever
been opposed to the true institutions of the country. Pulteny
had recommended George the Second not to speak of the
Tories as his enemies, because they constituted two-thirds of
of his people. It would be a good thing, if the Whigs would
recollect the advice of Pulteney. Could they claim a renewal
of confidence in consequence of the speech which had that
day been delivered to Parliament? On the contrary, that
speehh was the last effort of an expiring Government desirous of
laying the basis for a nascent Opposition. The Ministry had
returned to the vomit, by referring again to the Budget. They
would have to answer one question before the debate ceased,
'`icy would have to tell by what tenure they held office.
heir leader had volunteered a declaration that the opinion
cf the new Parliament was averse to them. A party which
cold power after it was aware that it did not possess the con-
fidence of Parliament was guilty of a high misdemeanour ;
that doctrine had been acted on when Parliament was not re-
formed, and such conduct had sent Dantz to a dungeon, and
Strafford to the scaffold.—( Cries of " Oh, oh," and great
laughter.) There were none of the Ministers who would
tot confess that they held office by the same tenure as the
Ministers of Charles the First by abusing the confidence of the
Sovereign, and in opposition to the opinion of Parliament.—
( Cheers and laughter.)
Mr. R. BERNAL, jun., knew not if he were one of the
ehindestine champions alluded to by the Hon. Gentleman who

had just sat down, but this he knew, that he had been returned
to that House by a constituency which had rejected the Hon.
Gentleman, who. whatever might be his free trade knew-
4edge on other subjects, understood free trade in politics well.
—( Cheers.) When that Hon. Gentleman attacked the Go-
vernment, he snould recollect the time when he went down to
canvass a borough with letters of recommendation in his pocket
from O'Connell and Mr. Hume, and when he was pro-
nosed by his friend '!'reacher, the Radical, and seconded by
his friend Rose, the Tory.—(Cheers and laughter.) It would
be for toe House to decide with how great farce any rebuke
eattie come horn such a quarter.—(Loud cheers.) " Gentle-
enett," said the Hon. Member, when he was immediately
6,,,e;:ted by shouts of laughter. " Well, I suppose you are
'era-n.—(Cheers.) Then, Sir, I hope the House will ex-
:elct any little inaccuracies in point of form into which I may
fah, "_—(Loud cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman continued—He
steed, before them entirely connected with one of those great
interests which could be affected by these measures—
! ' oended entirely on the West India interest, and by that
interest'ae' he must stand or fall, but he should second his
1. ein favour of a reduction of the sugar duties, because he
felt convinced that the ultimate prosperity and well-being of
the country depended on the sacrifices which the upper classes
make for the well• being of the lower.—
must be prepared to
suddenly
Glseera )
• In 1795 the average price of corn had
765., the consequence had been
xi-en from 545. a quarter to
not risen in pro-
great distress in the country,
the
for wages had n • •
contrary, wages had fallen
pertion.—( Hear, hear.) On
landholders, had eh eed a .-s the Magistrates, who were the tree
the deficiency of wages out
the parish officers to supply
of toe poor-rates.—(lear, hear.) That was the first
thee that wages had been paid out of the poor.
rate, and he would ask, would it not have better, before they
had passed the New Poor-law, to have re-modelled the Corn-
laws, and on that to have founded their new system of Poor-
laws ?—(Cheers.) What was the present Poor-laws,
direct concession to the landlords, and to nobody else , but
tie a
wiehed the lam:lords would follow the example which he,
,a f
their
brother monopolist, was prepared to set them, and would
once accept an ts. duty as a boon, the acceptance of which, _ a
it
_
delayed, would become small by degrees, and beautifully
less.—(Cheers.)
Sir CHARLES NAPIER would reply to the speech of the
Hon. Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire, for he must
confess that et.e speech cf the Honourable Member op-
pos te, who had just sat down (Mr. D'lsraeli), was ut-
terly beyond his comprehension. The Honourable Mem-
;bier for the West Hiding, in speaking of the present
.Ministers, after throwing out his skirmishes pretty well, had
made his grand attack upon them for not keeping the promises
whieh the had made, on taking office, of peace, retrenchment,
and economy. The Hon. Gentleman said that they had taken
o&ee in 1830, and eight or ten little wars had, eluting that
time, been carried on by the Government. " Gentlemen,"
said the Gallant Commodore, amidst roars of laughter, in
avhich he himself joined. When the laughter had subsided,
the Hon. and Gallant Officer continued. If the Government
.had carried on little wars, he hoped the Hon. Gentleman op-
ii-site would allow him to say, that if those little wars had not
teen carried on with vigonr and talent, they would not have
been brought to the satisfactory conclusion to which they had
iieen.—(Cheers.) If Honourable Gentlemen oppreelte had
been in power, they might possibly have great wars,
rod with them great contracts and great loans.-2( Cheers. )
Ile doubted if any other person than the Noble Lord the
Seeretary for Foreign Affairs would have preserved the peace
of the country its the manner which that Noble Lord had been
able to do. Ile Hon. Gentleman had accused the Govern-
meet of making little wars. He had told them that the Go-
etetiment which had held office for 18 years before the time the
Government came into office had made but one war—.
tie: war at Navarino ; but that Hon. Gentleman had fergotten
tl that Government made war with Algiers, and also in
.11; engaged in the Burmese war, in which he be-
lie, :e a great deal of money had been expended. But
he I. et not sold the House that while they
were in office
suffered France to go to war with Spain, and
to e-ch one hundred thousand troops into that country,
(town a constitutional Government in that country.
- bad been the results of hie little wars whic•h had been
teat;',ythe present Government. They had given a free
Gu%.:clunent to Portugal. They had given Spain a tree Go-
verienent.—( An Opposition Member here exclaimed, " Spain
is at4:4bsolute Government.") An Hon. Gentleman said that
Si:4:u was an absolute Goverment. He only knew that there
was :. Cortes in Spain as there was a Parliament in this coun-
try ; .'ne was therefore! justified in saying that ihere was a free
cee,,rinent i Spai
ne •
00: n. The Noble Lord had put an end to
tt ..t despicable tyranny which had ever been inflicted, on
ounrry in Slri.—( HI ar, te.enet Ali hear.) He had restticted
within the limits of his own ter-
, et•-s; and he hoed
to act in atecrp that Turkey would have been
r.; and laughter.) tlanee with the Noble Lord's views.—
POLLINTON • •
was glad the Gallant Officer had risen,

because he had relieved them from the monotony of a Corn-
law debate. The Gallant Officer did well to dazzle them with
the successes of Syria, as if any man could doubt what British
valour could do under a Stopford of a Napier—( L oud cheers)—
or as if the successes of those operations proved the wisdom of
the wars. What quarter of the globe was there in which her
Majesty's Ministers did not leave the British name less re-
spected than they found it ? Look at the ill-suppressed rebel-
lion in Canada, at the Bosphorus closed against our vesseis, at
our suspended commercial intercourse with Persia, at the pre-
sent state of the frontiers of India, at the war in China, where
not even the success which had attended their arms
could atone for the blunder of their diplomacy. Above
all, let them look at Syria. They were all aware
aware what had been the state of that conntry
before it came under the power of that extraordivary man
who had so recently been an opponent—the ill-treatment of his,
the total insecurity of life and propeaty, and the utter cessa-
tion of commerce. In a very short period the whole face of
things had been changed. suddenly the Goveanment deter-
mined to assist the Port against Mehemet Ali, and the conse-
quences in his opinion would be most disastrous to this country.
With respect to the home policy of the Government, the coun-
try had already pronounced its decision, and he would not
therefore allude to ir. He would only observed in conclusion
that when the Noble Lord opposite addressed the House at the
meeting of Parliament in 1831, he contrasted the state of his
own side of the House with that of his opponents, and said that
all the great cities and towns were represented by his party.
That could not be said at present.—( Hear, hear.) However
ninth the Government were as a Government, they would
prove a formidable opposition, but formidable only as those
eastern barbarians whom the Roman legions learned to tear,
but feared only on account of the poisoned weapons which they
hurled behind them in their retreat.—( Great laughter from
both sides of the House.)
Mr. EWART and Mr. ROEBUCK rose at the same time
to address the House, but repeated cries being made for the
latter, Mr. Ewart sat down.
Mr. ROEBUCK said that if the question then proposed
to the House were simply an inquiry into the character of
the present Ministry he would have little difficulty in coming
.to an opinion, though he might have some difficuity as it
was actually proposed. His opinion was adverse to the Mi-
nistry ' • but on grounds sod distinctly opposite from all those
which had been alleged by Hon. Gentlemen and Noble Lords
opposite, that he could not reconcile to nimse f voting against
those wqom he disliked only because they too much resembled
them.—( Hear, hear.) But the question was not :imply as to
the character of the present Mihistry, it was a comparison
of character.—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Roebuck) did not
quite understand the analogy of the Right Hon. Gentleman
who had compared himselt to a physician. He would have
theught that he was already called in when he was elected as
a Member cf that House.—( Hear, hear.) He would never
dismiss one physician until he felt assured that he could ob-
tain a better in his place. Ae must have some advisor, and
though his present adviser might be inefficient and not alto-
gether trustworthy. one might find one still more inefficient,
still less trustworthy. They had to find, then, whether Hon.
Gentlemen opposite were, or were likely to he, better than the
present Government —( Hear.) They could know nothing
of the Government except by their acts • and
he proposed to take such a retrospect of the
past as should give them a full insight into the
character of both parties, and according to the result would he
give his vote on that occasion. He found at the outset of the
inquiry that the preseet Administration in the year when the
first Reformed Parliament met, in 1832, was predominant,
having power to do elmost anything that it desired for the
good of the country, and being forced into power by the strong
arm of the people. He found that party day by day losing its
influence until at length it had become so weak, tottering,
miserable, and wretched, that it was unable to do anything
either bad or good. He found the Right Hon. Gentleman,'
who at that time was the leader of a broken phalanx, a party
which seemed for ever annihilated. has found him now, flushed
with success, at the head of a party eager for the spoil. How
came this to pass? The Right Hon. Gentleman and his party
contended that they bed vanquished, not only their persons but
in their principles, though they were glad enough, indeed, to
be able to say that the Reform Ministry, the pushing on, ad-
vancing, moving party, were at length conquered. The pre-
sent Government looked upon themselves as martyrs to their
Liberal principle's. His ( Mr. Roebuck's) explanation differed
from that of other parties. The ruin of the Government
nor attrivutable not to their too great liberality, hut to their
forgetting their own opinions.— ( Hear, hear.) Flushed with
success in the year 1833, the Liberal party believed that they
had intorred the party opposite ; they then believed that the
only party from whom they had anything to fear was the ex-
treme section on their own side of the House. They became
Conservatives. They were placed in power to work out Re-
form ; they stopped in their course, and cost contumely upon
those who pointed out that they were in error. They were
told that this opposite party was not dead; that it was strong
in wealth and influence, that the clergy. many of the pro-
fession, and nearly all of the landed interests were opposed to
them. But the Ministry declared that they had obtained
chat they desired to effect by the Reform Bill, which was to
give a preponderating influence to the landed gentry.--( Hear,
hear.) '1 hat was the real course of their loss of power. They
were told that unless they advanced every day would add
strength to the opposite party, but they heaped scorn,
contumely and hatred upon those from whom the warning
proceeded.—( Hear, hear.) Deeply grieved was he to think o
the golden opportunity which had thus been lost. That the
Ministry had thus lost the confidence which was reposed, and
justly reposed in them for introducing the Reform Bill. The
result of the elections clearly showed that they had lost the
confidence of the nation; but it showed nothing more—it said
nothing as to principles.—(Hear, hear.) The country had
simply declared that it nid not like the present Government,
but when he said the country, let him not be misunderstood—
he meant the constituencies; and the Ministry complained
that the trial had not been a fair one; that there had been
bribery, intimidation, and corruption. He must candidly tell
them that the fault was theirs who had refused to remedy the
evil. Still was the conduct of the country wise in throwing off
ihe present Ministry for one of an entirely opposite character.
Before this question could be answered, it would be nect scary
to compare the character of the two parties. This he was pre-
pared to do ; and in their conduct in reference to the colonies,
at home and abroad, wherever the present Government was in
fault, he found the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite their inge-
nious assailant. The Right Hon. Gentleman had been their
evil genius.— (Hear. ) His compassion should extend over
the last ten years, and he would take the Colonial Secretary to
on the representations of the one party, and the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite as the representative on the ;other. In
judging of a Ministry as a party, he thought it was just to
take them in large proportions—not to look with micriscopic
precision into their little divisions, but to take the whole tenor
of their policy. The first step of the Noble Lord representing
his party was the Reform Bill. The Right Hon Gentleman
representing his, true to his nature, opposed it, and checked
what he now admits to be an improvement. So far then, he
was not at that time the friend of the people England. Of
course he applied tht observation politically, not personally.
That was the first thing on which they differed. The next
great improvement was their Municipal Corporation Bill. That
also was opposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman step by step.
There was nothing infamous which he did not do to impede
that measure. Lt all in England who had a voice in the
government of a borough recollectthat the Right Hon. Gentle-
man and his party would have refused the Municipal Corpo-
ration Bill. Was that then the party which was togovern the
country ?
Sir R. PEEL said a few words across the table, denying, as
we understood, that he had opposed the English Municipal
Corporation Bill.
Mr. ROEBUCK said he would next refer to the Poor-law
Bill. Here he was sorry that he could not separate the Right
Hon. Gentleman from his party. Not one single election had
passed in which those who had come forward on the liberal
side had not bean met by vulgar appeals to the lowest passions,
for passing a measure which the Right Hon. Gentleman him-
self had supported. The Right Hon. Gentleman had now
spoken of this conduct as dishonourable ; he had now raised
his countenance severely against those who had had recourse
to it, although it ought to have been done.—( Hear. hear.)--
The greatest act which the Government had ever brought for-
ward was made use of against them for the basest purposes—
( Hear, hear.) Still that was the party whit must rule,
tor it had been so decided by the elections.—( Hen., hear. )
He believed that the principles of the party opposite would
work out their natural consequences; and that the people of
England would rue the day when their principles came into
action upon their own bidding, for they would find that they
could not obtain from that perty those measures which were in-
dispensable to our commercial welfare. But the Liberal party
in that House should submit to the necessity of circumstances,
for the people of England must rule themselves.—( Hear,
hear.) He found at present a wondrous assent to that opinion
from the party of the Hon. Gentleman opposite.—(Hear,
hear.) But when they said it was the people who had brought
things to their preseut position, he denied that such was the
case—it was to the constituencies alone their condition was Cr'
traced. And he could not but think the Whig parte -
was answerable for that result, because it was the fa itself
made the constituencies what they were. T' w o had
s _
enced the fruits of their own want of s'e' now experi-
Member who had introduced the - eight, The HA.
the foreign policy of the Gove-ame;t,
mendment had tt
but he 01r. Roebuck)
to
should observe that all
in which the Gover
the mese-stets hf foreign policy
anent had been engaged, had received
no rebuke from the other side of the; House. Why was
not one of •
ale Wars in 'et hieh the country had been engaged
sae of yolur evil deeds?—( taken ri ?
?deedist?n_d
BthaetynonosLthaltdhinthg
of tlie
3111.11. Wi.kah avas it not not laid at the door of the
beets hone. (An (wChhyeersw.e)re his
shaids
Honourable Member on the opposite
benches here
the
ease
in ementioned the Chinn debate.) What had been
that debate? He had not then honour of a scat
in the House a
Parliamen hada that time ; but he thought he had read that
that question, tiVve
Now
ved of much of the proceedings upon
war Amara have iNw in his (Mr. Roebuck) opinion, that
(Cheers.) A called
up
the indignation of every honest
a aerce rebuke of th:d if he had found on the opposition
to give up that tropert entire proceeding. and detentination
sid that they petty, so jestly condemned, he should have
national gratitude,. I have swab), entitled to
the state of our telatioas An
h allusion had
--(en Made tb
of the Aerreselean Government wi!atlil kmer.:ea and the oencluet
(Mr. Roebuck) was prepared,. • seen censured. New he
nattlt on the whole of their pr justify the American Govern-
-( Hear and laughter ) 41%t
ititga from begitning*ib end.
Position of M'Leod was setch, thatleeier
I:egret Ntas that the
United States, and after I,l\
ceoitese 'ditig tithe laws of the
Minister, they could not rtike, the eTitit.v " 1 by_ the British
permit h4m' to explain 'icily he stated that. The House would
marl misconceptiest exi=ted upon the subject, e believed that
state the facts et the case. A party of our t Let him first
commawdet crossed the frontier, seized a boat Tops and their
certeile number of American subjects. Some tianda killed a
011ie persons supposed to have been engaged in
the fter one
ceed-
ing was arrested because he had left Upper Careek
had been an Under-Sheriff, where he feed 'got in debt thrroeuhhe
facilities afforded him by office. He reseed over to New yort
and there was arrested and cornttAtted for trial. A true btll was
found by the grand jury. and 31•Leod had to take his trial.
The House should itrrow that there were two Courts in Arne-
rica—the Federal Court, which belonged to the other States,
and the State Court, which belonged to the State of New
Yorks The Federal Court could not, by common law, take
cogoizsnce of murder • everything of which they take cogni-
zance was by statute:law, and they could have cognizance of
murder in those cases only in which it had been committed
within the peculia. districts assigned to them ,• but in the
State of New York, as a State, they had no jurisdict:on what-
ever, the entire jurisdiction being in the hands of tha State
Court. The peculiar result of that system was that the power
of pardoning a person found guilty in the State Court lay in
the Government of the State, incependently of any other
power, while a person convicted by the Federal Court might
pardoned by the President, whose jurisdiction reached him.
Mr. Forsyth, in his answer to ?dr. Fox, stated that the
Government could not reach the case of 111'Leed,
and that it was entirely in the hands of the
authorities at New York. There might be a deficiency
in the legislative system of the United States, but they could
not now remedy the evil. A similar case might have occurred
some years ago in New York. A woman might object to an
appeal in favour of the murderer of her husband; and the
King could not afterwards interfere
for the purpose of par-
doning the prisoner. Now, let them suppose that in Prince
Louis Napoleon's late attempt at Boulogne, he bad been ac-
companied by an English citizen, and that citizen had been
murdered, while the persons who had killed him had been
taken up, if the: widow objected to their pardon, they would
had a case under the former English law precisely similar to the
case of M‘Leod. He (Mr. Roebuck) did not think tha