The Sun.
London, England, 1812-07-07 00:00:00

[Pilfer; SIXPENCE-HALFPENNY.

spect to his own Motives.' The ground to. wh-ofh
the mea.l.tre owed its• orioin, was ,a pronositbh.",n
the part of Mr. Palmer to receive 21 o,:r
upon whatever additional revenues may accrue to
tie Post Office, in conseounceolAtis
On this simple grou:id was the Justice of the
founded. It had occurred to. the Minister then t
the head of the, Treasury, after. be had ;o .!;reed to
th,is proposition, that grett difficulties might
tain in the ciMrse of carrying .the plan into e%.c-.;
cution ; and with a view to obviate thos:t, he
placed Mr: Palmer in a situation at the Post
Ot-
rice, in order that be might 'siTervise the/exec-o-
thin of the plan.. But their Lordships mhst he
aware that there existed in all public offices a-ais--
position to counteract improvements which did not
originate with :the officers holding sittutfthns
therein. Thpy regarded the adoption of such
measures as an impea;:innent of their own
ties ; and it stood upon record, .that. the otficers
of the Department in question had .strongly
pressed their opinions against the praetich6ll,l7,
of Mr. Palmer's plan, arid their etn wer'e
directed.to defeast its object., This coosideratioa,
it appeared; bad indoced the then FirA Lord of
thetreasury to placelkir.Pahner in, the sitcotion
in the Post (Mice to' vvhich be alluded,, and it cer
tain yealgy siilary was, assigned hip. It w s to.
',be observed, that this office was intendc,;,l-to be
for life, and-that the amount of 'the salary was to
be deducted froth that of the per centage,
was also granted for life. it:was however thohght
that the great of s*ch an office for life would .6(
contrary to ‘a principle which pi'cvailed lid Lillie ~
braneh of the sztvice,
.and therefore it was sealed
the office should be held . during pleasure. 'the
salary, was 15001;
,pet,,eannunt, and this bad been,
:regularly deducted from 04: • amount of the -per
centage; and when be was dep,:ived of the situa-:
tion, the ftillamotint 6f the original per ceniage'
should in justice be continued to hint. Events, •
however, as might have be.enforeseenj had led iu
the dismissal of Mr.-Palmer : this proceeding, -it
was asserted, bad arisen from his 'own misconduct.
_Even admitting that, such a dis Missal was a v,: iv
,severe punishment for his misconduct, inasinnert-,.
as it removed him froth a situation whhfe hehouid
superiuteud the management ,of those arrange-
ments from which the increase of his own per cc/it-
age, was to arise, and forced hint to leac;6 the CGri-
trOUl Ofslik plan to persons who were hostile to
the system, and even personally to its projiictor..
The Report of the • Commons distinctly stated the
full and just right of Mr. Pahner to all that he now
claimed. He was unable to, devise any well
foitnded objections to the claim. 'What he
heard, turned upon points so minute and sO._ pre-
suuiptive, as not to call for a serionsreilection.
any N obleLOrd thOtight that he had pas.sed oVei• any
material feature in the case, let it be s.tatcd, and
he would endeavour to ansWer the objection. He
would then detain their Lordships no longer, but
.to declare his firm conviction that kr. Pal:lief-was
most fairly entitled to what he e.laimed, from-the
justice of that country which he had so
_amply be-
nefited. His Lordship concluded' by moving, that
the Bill be now read a second time.

. The Earl of Si.TITOLK ex;nc-3...:eki his wish to be
informed by any Noble Lord whether there was
any contract made in the case before the House;
in writing-9r, if not, any that eoulcl be provea
by witnesses This, lie thought, was prot*.:r to
be knOwn, in order to afford their Lordships some
-certain' grounds for their deci4ion.
The Earl of .11A;:trtowiri began his observatiOns
upon the can in a low tone of voice, Ile said it
appe.ared, that the draft of some kind of insork-

baa teen prepared, bin by whom it wit.; drawn, or
decisive;y' for what purpose, did not appear.—
' Adverting then, to- fly.; gen,rA subject of ti :.e
'clainiz,, the Noble Earl argit::(l, that frtint ery
tiling that was known, that VMS 611 record, or had

appetirell i.n the.shao of evidence, they we:•e,,
now made, entirely unfounded, It was the de-

Glared intention of:Mr. Pitt, -at the time the pro-
position was first Made to hint by Mr. Falithr,
that with respect to the plan which t
at that time in .conteMplation, the . arrange-
latent should be regulated according 'to the compen-
sation which Mr. Palmer himself consented to re-
ceive,,(and upon w,hich along any claims could
be, grounded) which the Treasury warrants had
specified the terms of---this offer did not ins the

leapt prove, thatthosendvvtthges were to be: vest-
ed in Mr. Pahner for life, or tte .least ground that
he possessed any legal or equitable claims to the
full "amount of the per centlge, as alleged. Tl:p
Noble Earl then referred to -a variety ,of doNi-
ments then before the-House':of which he.quoted
various parts in support of what he_advanced.
He then adverted tothe' Cousidnation the
charges o'f misconduct, upon tillith 'Mr. Paliner
had been dismissed; and refer ring to the docu-

mints for various points, argued that the' dismiscnl
of Mr.P. was not only proper, but, untier tie cir-
cumstances, had become ue cr v :rout.end-

,ed, that the pensionof 3'ooo/. a year I:co-life L} ,:;ii
Mr. rainier; was a fair and,awpie-equiv:dent, tor
the services rendered by bi!n to the
calcniated the sums receivei by .Ainisalmer:; while
he remained in office, and what heirqceive,d sinec-;
which amounted to an iminense stun; nlo:-:t

abundant remuneration for any thing he couthl
justly pretend to, anZI observed it was.iucumbe:,t
on their Lordships • to pause_ v,ell,,and consier
seriously the grounds of claims, er th 4, espe-
cially in tint: present situation of the count;-y, coi -
eurred in a measure, vs hich went to confcr-on tt e

same person the additional sum, of: ;';800t.
gether With more than 9',5001. a year fOrlifei it
were t miserable economy hot liberally to IY2Wa d
real services , upon claims justly founded:
upon the presenf occasion, be- thought. the
claimi were neither foutilitl in equity or in
justice. He must protest against such a Wa:iltou.
lavishhig of the gublic mgneyi and he. felt it his

bounden duty to oppose the pill in every stage of,
its progress.
The Marquis of LAi4aDOWNE argued in favour
.or, the Bil!, ant in support of the claims of Mr.
Palmer, and insisted that it was only on a view
of the mere justice of the case, and not upon any
collateral pins connected with the extent of the'
grant; as adverted by theNoble,Earl; their Lord-
ships had to decide.
The Earl of LIUDERDALE, with great force and
-ability, and at much length, supported the argu--
ments of the Earl of liarrowby, and- contended
that the claims, r.s now%advanced by Mr. Palmer,
'were entirely unfounded. No onereorda feel more'
for the financial state of the country than. himself;
but tint consirteration, in the present case, had
no weight with i im.. He could 'not avoid notic-
ing, however, that want of discrimination and
consisteng, in the Commons,- whO had voted such
enormous sums to Mr. Palmer, and had thought
_ _

proper to rtulard a cotintryma❑ of his own Mr:
Campbell), who'had invented machinery for the
-a improvement of the manufactory of muslin, so as
to give employment to more than 70,00 Q men,

and added three hundred and eighty thousand

pounds per ann. to the Revenue, with the coin-
paratively trifling-sum 50001... The Noble Earl
'Wetted copiously to the evidence before the
• ihnlic; and contended it appeared therefrom, that
by tie arrangements made by Mr. Pitt with Mr.
Palmer, belvas by rio means entitled to what he
ow claiined, -Neither was the increase of the

3=07; t Revem:cs,whieh had since accrued,,to be

t ributed to the operation ofidr.Palmer's plan;a
•
rii-tv or causes contributed, such as increasing rates
ofpostage, ciiivinution of the privilegeof franking,
and not a little .to th egreat increase of the.coun-
try baks, in 1784, did not exceed fifty,
but were noW dpwards of eight hundred ;
nothink; of these'sources of increase was attribut-
able to Mr. Palmee's plan. With
..rOpect to the
dismissal of Mr.' Palmer : he also sitipported the
argument of the Noble Earl, that it had become
necessary from his great misconduct ; in illustra-
tion of which, he referred to the documents, par•
ticularly to the afliclavit orMr. White, and from
which he contt4,-aded, it "appeared that the Gentle-.
man in question had endeavoured' to excite con-.
fusion and. disorder, in that department, that he
raighi: throw the blame of it on the then worthy
Postmaster-General. . In concluding, the Noble
solemnly declared, that though the natural
'turn of his mind would leazi' him to favour the in-
dividual claiming, yet he felt it a matter of impe-
ratve public duty to resist the claim in question,
as the most unfonnded that was ever brought be-
fora a House of Parliament.

The Earl of - QARNARVON contended, that,
though the claiTs of Mr. Palmer were such •as
could not be supported in au action at law, yet he
had a fair demand upon the justice -of the country
for an invention, by which the public hadbenefit-
ed, and were continuing to benefit up to this mo-
nient,. The real question before their Lordships
was, whether they would break faith on a-virtual
contract, or pay their just_debts.
Lord WAIAINGRAM opposed the motion—and
defied any one to' produce an: instance in which
Mr. Palmer's authority, 'while in office, was. con-
trolled. lie allowed-that the plan had great ,
hut thought the claim -to any additional reinune4
ration fo;feitedby his misconduct. • .
Lord Viscount MOUNTJOY •cxpressed
in favour of Mr.. Palmer's Claim, principally up-
on the ground, th'at the Government could not have
derived the additionaLtaxes from that source,' but
for the excellence and the success of that Gentle-
man's improvement..

Lord ERsKiF. maintained that the Resolution
-voted by the Housi of Commons, Went upon the
pound that the individual
,alluded to had a claim
uy.on the justice and the purse of the country,—
Mr. Pelmer's conduct, though it might justify his
remoital from office, could not,' in bis opinion,
extinguish his right to the per centage.

The:LORD CHANCELLOR warned the House of
the consequences of giving into a, demand at laSt,
Which had- been repeatedly, refused Lr the twenty
Years preceding. After Some arguments in oppo-'
sitton to the legal claim, and in denial of the al-
leged contract, he declared his intention ofoppos-
ing the second reading, and liringing,forwal•d some
propositions in'luture stages of the Bill.
Lord 11.r.-zsDALE denied the existence of such
a contract as was contended for: It was not even
asserted, in the preamble of the bill, and thetes-
titnony as the conduct of Mr. Pitt, appear-
ed so'him to remove all ground from such an as=
sumption.

Tbe:Earl of LivtitrooL resisted the motion on
the ground that there no distinct agreement with
Mr. Palmer, and that even if there was, his con-
duct was such 2.s to justify the refusal of any fur-.
ther remuneration than: he. had already received.
--;LThe passing of °:elie bill would, he conceived,
be setting the worst' possible examyle to public
servants.

Tile Earl of MoIRA ''replied, after which the
1-douse

exitents , n 7
Nou-Contents -
Mjiarity iu favour of tbe second
Tile bill was then read a second time.
• Tite Earl of RPOOL, moved the seco,nctread-
of•the•t'oxcise Duty Bill. •
'file Dukf of Nc.,,arotA: opposed the tax on Lea-
tiltyr iucluded in tho Bill, on the general ground or
the i nipat icy of ta'ing he rft4', material of any mar
•r.ufacture.

The 1..1r1 of SUFFOI.K, adverting to the bad
mtlde 'of collecting the Income Tax, contended,
that if clue strictness were used in that respect,
the duties at present p±oposed would be rendered
linnecessary.
The Earl of 14;VERPOOL defended the Taxes in-
cluded in the Eili before the House,, as the best
which, under tie existing circumstances of the
country, -could be. devised. With respect to the
• particniar Di.lty on Leather, the Committee would
be the proper stage of the Bill in which to oppose
the. Clause iii which it was contained.
Earl FITZW ILLIAM observed, that from all he,
had heared'on the subject, he was satisfied that
the proposed additional duty on hides and skins
would be very injurious to the community at large,

as well as tothOse who were cap ged hi the nia-
nufaeture of leather.

, Earl LALTDPATDALE iuquired whether it was the
intebt,,ion .f Government to Fopcse any couster-

vailin duty on.bizies and skins in Ireland, in Order
to plt the rnanufactored article of the tn,7o cowl-
tries on a level in the market ? , .

The Earl of LIVERPOOL professed hiniseif un
able to see the necessity of such a proCet•tlillg.
Earl. LAu-ecnnALt declared, that unit-ss some
measure of that nature were resorted to, tilt ma-
n'ufactu're of leather in this couritry would be. Ma-
terially injured.
The Bill was then read a second time, and or-
d.dred to be committed to-morrow,

The nous'e having resolved itself into a Coin-
Inittee on the Court of Chancery and Appeals'Re-
gulation Bill,

- Earl LAUDERDALE made a variety of objections
to the'Bill; -and-oh-served, that the mock of exa-
mining witnesses in the COmmittce of their Lord,
s'hips in which the Bill originated, was farcical and
defusive

Lord R6F.SDALE expressed his surprise, that
the Noble,Eqrl, who had himself been a Member
of the Comthittee to which he alluded, had not
in that Committee stated his objections to the
report.
_ _

Earl LAUDERDALE declared that he had strongly
objecte4to the report.
- Lord II cit.i,Akr, corroborated the statement made
by hiS NobleFrierid. On the only day on which he
had attended the COnimittee, he had heard his
Noble Friend "strenuously object to •several. pas=
sages in the Report. ,
The LORD CHANCELLOR observed;-that let the
exertions of any "man be what they might', their
Lordships bad better at once tell the Appellanti
at their Bar, that their:Appeals could not be heard
in the' next Session ; or induce them to give UP
their estates, unless it were determined:to sepa-
rate the situations of Lord Chancellor and Speaker
of that House.

LordEnsKINE expressed himself to be decided-
ly cf the same
The Bill then pa,sed threligh the Committee..
The various ilk ,an the table were then. for-
warded in their respective stages, and the House
adjourned.

lOTISE OF CM:ENIONS, MONDAY.

'Mr. BATIMVST took the oaths and his seat.

Mr. WrzAßToNlirought up an Estimate of the
Sums re:;%iled for the erection of the New Mint. ,

Ordered of lie on the table.
It was ordered that the House.should to-mor-
row resolve itself into a Committee on the Trade
to .the Isle of Man.

Mr. WINCHESTER, from the Post-office, pre-
sented Accounts of the Sums of Money r-,xeived,
as Cabin MOney,fram persons leaving the Coun-
try in his Majesty's packets.
Ordered to. lie on the.tahle.
The' East India 'troops Bill, and the Lottery
Bill, *ere read a third time and passed.
The Report of the Starch Bill was bropgbt up
and agreed to, and the Bill ordered to be read a
third time to-morrow.

The Scotch Taxes Bill and Stone Bottles 'May
Bill were read a second time, and, committed for
to-morrow.

Mr;BROUGIIA7t2 wished to ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequeq, if
he had made up his mind with respect .to, the
prayer of the Danish Claimants ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, in-,
quiries on ' the subject were still, going on; and
therefore he could not make up his mind at
•
present:

• Lord Viscqunt JoCELYN appeared at the Bar,
with an Ans*er from the Prince Regent to an
Address of the House, in which his Royal High-
ness stated himself to have ordered Accounts of
the Sums expended on the Buildings and Im-
provements in Mary-le-bone Park, to be laid be-
fore the -House.

On the Report of the East India . Loan Bill
being• brought up, Mr, CiEVEY gave notice,
that he would • to-morrow move certain Resolu-
tions respecting the Finances of the. East India
Company. The Report was then agreed to, and
the pin ordered to be read a third .time to-
morrow.

. Mr. if.. SUMNER brought up a Report. of the
PioCeedirigs entered on the Lords .Tournal, on
the Manure Carriage Bill. He then brought. in
4 Bill to explain, the Exemptions from Toll, 'or-
dained by several Acts 'of Pialiament to be al-
lowed to Carriages used for Carrying Manure. The
Bill was read a. first time, and ordered to be read
a second time to-morrow.

The Irish Stamp Duty Bill was read a third
time and passed...,
Mr. P. COKE presented a Petition in favour of
the "Frame-work Knitters Bill: Tile Bill, was or-
deredlb,be committed to-Morrow,
Sir W. 'Cuntris moved, the further 'considera-
tion, of the Report of the London Prisons •Bill.
Mr. H, SUNNER disapproved of the principle of
the Bill, from the ineyylity
,of, its operations.
He thought 'the. City of London ought not to
make such an application to Parliament, without
shcwing that they.had no fund of, their own ca--
pable of meeting the charges of the propos'ed
building,-; After a variety of observAions on the
injustice and inexpediency of the measure, he
concluded by moving, as an amendment, that tire
Report should be further taken into consideration
on that day three Months.
Sir W. CURTIS defended the measure, and con-
.
tended that there was no impropriety in the ap-
plication made to,Parliament on, this occasion' by:
thy City. of London;. He trusted the House would
approve !if the measure, and that the Report
would be then received.
After a few' fUrther observations, from
,Mr.
Sunnier, Sir C. Price, Mr. R. Thornton, Mr. Al-
derman Combe, and Sir James Shaw, , •
The House diviiled, when we understood. the
numbers were—

For the Amendment
Against it
Majority in favour of the Bill

-2R

The Bill was ordered to be read a third time.

On a motion for taking into further considera-
tion tfie Report of the Moodields Improvement
Bill— ,

Mr. H. S 'LIMNER opposed the Report. The City
of London, be thought, acted :very inconsiitently
with respect to
.Moorfields, The ground there
had been granted to the City on condition th'at
tutu should not build on it. had, however

built on the cuter Moor .without=gaying a=ward,
artd now they came to Parliament to gain its sanc-
tion to them to inelbse and build Upon the Only
open piece of ground rempitling in the City.
Sir W.
•CURTIS defended ' • -
The CHAiccElioa of ExcnEcaura-thought
the proposed improvement:s very desiralyle
The Iteport Was then 'agreed- to, and the Bill
ordered to be read a third time to-Morrow. and to
be 'engrossed.

Mr. 'J. lERNEY moved for returns of the income
of, and charges upon, the Consolidated Fund, from
July,.lSlli to duly 1812; diistinguishing the in-
come and charge of each quarter:
GinnY brought up 'a Report from
the Committee appointed to inquire into the mate
of Lincoln gaol. • As they found it imposibie, in
this the first stage of the itiquiry, proceed with
the investigation, without having persons brought
up to be examined befOre them, who Were now
prisoners at -Lincoln, though the power of the
House to bring up any persons so confined was
undoubted, yet the Committee, submitted to the
House that great inconvenience might result from
bringing prisoners some of whOin were in' eon=
finement for criminal offences; and others for debt
that yuch a proceeding must be attended with con-.
siderable expense. The Assizes would shortly be
bolded at 'Lincoln,, when it would be very .incOn-
venient for some of those persons to attend, whom
it would be necessary the clothaiittee-shotild exa7
'mine. Under these circumstances they recoin-
mended it to the House. to discharge them front 'a
fiirther prosecution of their duties at present, or
to devise such other modes of carrying on the
tliiry •as the House' in -its 'wisdom might decm
proper. .

rine question was then put that this Report do
lie ou the, table.'

Mr. DAvis GIDDY then intimated an intention
of moving an Address to the, Prince Regent,
praying that he would be graciously pleased to
send down a Commission to proceed with the in-
vestigation.
Some conversation followed; in "which Mr.
Abercromby,, Sir S. Hon illy, *Mr. Ellison, and
Mr. -.Brougham participated.
Mr: H; Sum NRR was entering into 4 repetition'
'of his previous statements, when
The SPEAI i R reminded " the Honourable Mem-
ber of the irregularity, 'and the necessity of ab-
staining from further details on the subject, pend-
ing inquiry.
The Report was then ordered to lie on the table.

'On the motion of Mr. D. GronY, an Address
was agreed to be presented ,to his Royal High-
ness the Prince Regent, praying that he would be
graciously pleased' to direct that a Commission
should be issued to inquire into what has been
'and now is the condition and treatment of pri-
soners in Lincoln Castle. •