The Sun.
London, England, 1847-01-26 00:00:00

had been intrusted with money to employ persons who
were not provided with other labour, or who were
noxious to obtain such employment. In many casts •
this had operated most injuriously, and some days
ago he had received a letter from a gentleman
in Ireland, stating that under the Act of last
year cons;derable mischief had been effected, and
that a heavy expenditure incurred unnecessarily,
some of the pay clerks and other officials having disap-
peared with the money.—(Hear, hear.) He concurred
also with the Noble Marquis, that whatever might be •_
the dangers and difficulties at the present moment, that
it would be nothing compared to what might be expected
to take place if there were an abandonment of agricul-
ture in Ireland. At the same time, he did not take the
same gloomy view of the extent of the evil complained
of as the Noble Lord. It did appear that there was a
great remissness in the agriculture in Ireland. 11e
would now take the liberty to express his
strongest opinion that her Majesty's Governd
ment would have done better if they ha
sacrificed some of their opinions to political economy
He agreed fully with the Noble Marquis, that the pre-
sent was a question not of money but of food—(11"1.'
hear)—and provisions and not money should be stir
plied by Government. The corn had got into the hands
of petty local speculators, by whom it was purchased •
Now, that was not a description of persons with wh0,.,113' -
in his opinion, Government should not interfere. eel
thought that there should be depots established
throughout the country, in places that were remote or
difficult of access, for the sale of corn at fair commer-
cial prices, and the effect would have been to withdraw - •
the corn that was stored up, and enable the people
to obtain it at fair but remumerating prices. lie re-
peated remunerating prices—not famine prices. na
had been told that her Majesty's Government had no•
right to interfere with such, but that night, to his utter
astonishment, the Noble Marquis told the House that
her Majesty's Government had already done this, and
intended to carry this plan still further. It had been
stated that there had been established 950 relief con'
mittees. His Noble Friend had said with respect to the
employment of ships, that, what he (Lord Stanley) had
contended for; and that her Majesty's ships of war and
war steamers 'had been employed in carrying corn •
to the different ports. Now all that was i 0"
consistent with the principle of non-interferenet
On the subject of emigration he entirely concurred wit
the Noble Marquis, that it was a subject surrounded
with difficulties of no ordinary nature, and one with
respect to which it would be hard to devise any plan
likely to produce a tangible or practical effect on the Pe'
pulation. He felt that abuses were likely to arise froel
the proposed plan of advancing small sums of money t°
emigrants to British colonies, because many of those Wal)
most successfully emigrated had funds of their owe, al..
.
were going out to meet friends or relatives, and the re. ,
sult of the proposed advance would be, that fee'
if any, would go out on their own resources''
With respect to the question of poor-laws—decidedly
one of the most important of those under Or
sideration—he should not long detain their LordshiP9*
The Noble Marquis had laid much stress upon the bear
I fits likely to accrue from the fact of enabling the 10'.
lords to relieve the incumbrances upon their propeller
by raising money in the way of a loan. Now this eloll'4 ,
be most advantageous, if there were a simularity,e..
circumstances existing in Ireland to those pre that
ing in England but, he regretted to sat, th:o •
after a landlord had expended a sum of money upon t
improvement of his tenant's property, he found IPs
utterly impossible to get a due and fair increase of rem.
for the increased value of the land. He could state frel;
his knowledge that there were many landlords at tne, •
present moment in Ireland, who possessed both h
means and the ability to improve their properties, e,
they found it impossible to do so with the slightest pros
pect of getting a fair return for their outlay-, and theee
ne
tore thought their Lordships ought not to be too sangal
as to the beneficial effects said to be likely to arise fro
enabling the landlords to borrow money in the roaancv.
and for the purposes, proposed. There existed in reanf'd
parts of Ireland a class of tenants holding under (360
leases and at low rents, who derived all the bac
from the land, to the total exclusion of the head Its,
lord, and who, for the increase of their own Pr°„.oo
promoted a large and accumulating pauper poPws7rol
upon the land, the head landlord having no CT:thing
whatever over the mode of tillage, letting, or' 40'. et
else connected with the management of the property..
n 4
might be said, and was said, that this state of en
arose from improvidence. He would grant it. But tali, 0,
they must_ bear in mind that it was improvideneefsio
very ancient date. He alluded to these circumstance, js..
show the great difficulty of guarding against whr
England would be most easy of consummation, saushei
hoped her Majesty's Governmant would, before to
threw additional burdens on Irish property, takesla.
consideration the propriety not only of imposing
dens upon the head landlords, but also upon those cod
sons to whom he had just referred, and who reales..
the whole benefits from the soil, and wettiote
means of creating a surplus and pauper point or
He said he would strongly advocate the advancer of
capital on indisputable securities, for the purpout ott
being laid out on remunerative works ; he inel,lll
railways. Considering the present state of Irelanusna
the political insecurity of the country, adbopearni
money could not be mare in a more lAA Mt°
mode than this, where remuneration 111 arkolo-
tainly be looked for, and the persons °I3 • ..egt
security the advances should be made would ettlialltru;s:
the employment of it, and in a more efficient
Wsl 11F it
could be done by the Government. Such a raeag, ass.
should be deemed practicable and desirable by her
jcsty's Government, would more than any other cf.
forth the capital of these railway companies, and at
earlier period than it was likely otherwise to be the case"
11e suggested this measure to her Majesty's Govern'
ent was about to a1.a.a...w their relief by
ment as one most likely to call forth capital into pro
W
wanne..4,sa in Ireland, at a moment when GLY
ment of the poor; and what was more, • it was less likeli
to draia off 1 The
labour from agricultural employments. ae„
Nobleu Lord said that he would offer no observations °,;
.e measures of the Government, and he might say
employ'
when the measures came before the 11:11-'
what he had already said before, that from the Hat
generaetv,
they wows not meet with any captious obLord BR' hajections.
.
rHAM said the Noble Lord wh° 'ad
just sat down hat- eooken of objections to the measure!!
he (Lord Brougham, be hi'
for one, whatever might
oee
opinion of these measui-• had a strong wish to -114,
the amount of money
comp' headed by these tneastl'-„o
the number of millions propo.:e. for the loans, the o'4
kitchens, and the out-door reliei"nd also the atnetl a
of loan that would be required, ana ,
interest,
how that was to be found? whether ta, tiws wbi
had been handed down ;row preceding Cla,ornalell,
heavy enough already, were not to be increase...o toe,w
'
this demand, and even the property-tax itself, we dr
it too would not be added ? lie had heard that ISO
ing that the amount comprised in the Government at
was 15,000,000/. He hoped that his Noble Friend 11,,°eeti
surely give him some idea of the amount. He !,gt•oot
with his Noble Friend that the Government ougu'Adrs,
to be corn merchants, agriculturists, or *ra,:;lo
but he went further, he thought they "0,9
not to become loan contractors. That tea a
new capacity for a Government, it had generally ugroiiia
d-btor, but it was to become a creditor now, a,,,nd,, the
be felt to be the harshest of creditors. 1Y l'J'iri4h
Government proposal was to lend money to thus the
landlords at 31 per cent interest ; but as soon loan
Irishman heard that it was to be 611 per cent. if t 119,004
was to be sunk, and 31- per cent. if it was not to bile oas
and to continue 31 per cent. for ever and ever ;S wits
sure no loan would be taken on such terms. •Pee Gtr
afraid that this, like many other measures of te so ee
vernment, would prove a complete falure, as
carp twice lete
the crops of last year, or rather as a more Erbe
failure than that, he meant the Labour Rate Act. f big
0
Noble Lord went on to state that a friend hi'
rather than submit to having an improvement or
road, such as the Government staff would have rnaclegoe,
posed upon him—rather than have the road nal'aasked
which was the word descriptive of the reality---he 7 on
what would be the expense of the improvement, IT tell
being told that it would amount to ,801., he imineulatbey
drew out a cheque for the amount and begged ope•
would leave'his road alone. Such, in fact, was the
ration of this Act—an Act which was as luinbers°.,,, lO
its working details, as it was ineficie.„%sd
the general result. Why, there was one functln-atis
employed at present in the superintendence of the /Ivor
for every 30 labourers. The staff of overseers Was
.0 00 i
mense, and yet it was so necessary to extend the -.
that the staff also must be increased; for without contl,llol.
oversight, it was impossible to prevent jobbing in Ire' po
On this subject I beg to ask the Government a questinn•corf
they mean to erect a regular staff of bailiffs in order to the
out this design ? If they did, they would cause ire'
cor.tinuance of one of the greatest evils the woad
land hasever suffered from, and property
be split gut into still smaller quantities than it of
now. He might recur to the old distich that every rrrool
land should maintain its man, but in Ireland every b_dai twee
was made to maintain its man, and that was the cosaW die
why that the money to be paid now would never eatl;o,o
necessities of the country. It was said that the money "pee
be , sent over would never meet the occasion, and hisooo,'
Brougham's) impression was that if they sent over Ain tter
the same would be the case. Indeed something like the :p
sum had been suggested, and on the suggestion being„ yolj,
another worthy individual had immediately said, "
~,115001
have not asked half enough. They owe us 601v"-..1 to
It was said that Parliament intended to extend the poor :Jeer
Ireland, and shut the door of the workhouse by granting 'tarer
relief. Why, instead of shutting the door they were OPd do
the door, and had already discovered that the poor Wlrit the
anything rather than enter it, and if they carried 1, they
system of out-door relief, as it seemed was propose% pot'
would commit one of the most fatal mistakes that colmo such
sibly occur; but he trusted that his Noble Friend had !la
unhappy intention. See what the effects already leere isteree•
the extent at which out-door relief was already earn° reset
Within five days, between the 16th and the 21st of this Poised
January, as he had learned from an official ROO
of his, no less than 2,200 men, who were paueerteest of
Ireland, 2,056 women, and 897 children, making _ that
more than 5,200 paupers, had been brought over from .44
country. And these were not brought, as some
ingeniously supposed, in order that the owners of the bat
but
vessels might realise a freight by taking them back agalst, is
one vessel alone, the Rover, from Sligo, had been pa,Tii, woo
one day, for bringing over a freight f paupers. of those
indeed, a growing evil, for, in five days, the detatif,,btol.
who received casual relief at Liverpool, was truly rils
the pelt
On On one day, Monday, the number was 18,095 ; on ~,n; and
it was 19,200 ; on Wednesday it was over 19.,4,70 that
on Thursday it was 22,095, who received relierxc'eptios
one parish. Then it was evident that there was e°!fatoine ;
to the sad rule that pestilence followed in the train w veer
not that the greatest exertion was not made by the veer
and charitable who could administer to the wants ands, but
sities of these people ; he did not mean to say that it litional
gentles: V:0
the official friend of whom he had spoken had taken auph was
premises for the erection of a fever hospital. And Wei net
svre
also the case with Manchester and Glasgow. They /rood,
a bit better. Let them, then, extend the poor-lave to r
unless they intended to bring over the whole of the PI tut
lation. It had been said that Ireland was for the ba" Bet
seemed that England was to be for the Irish alaclo frr
let them have fair play. If Ireland was to
eke thei
,he Irish, let it keep its own poor. Let than* nl