The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-16 00:00:00

---
1 Member, as he had not given notice of it, but
he had felt it his duty to explain the general principle on
which the Government of Ireland had acted.
Mr. HUME said that if there was any one subject that
should be noticed in this House, this was the most important,
1 because of all the evils in Ireland, this, if not remedied
1 by the Government would lead to other and perhaps gre-ter
evils. They read of murders perpetrrted openly and
in the day ; of pesaons entering dwel!ing-hotrses,
and, after committing the most brutal outrages, es-
caping unpunished He thought, therefore, that se
far from incurring blame for the course they
course they had pursued, that they should rather regard it as
one means of restoring o.zder. He regretted that any Hon.
Member should say in his place that he was glad that the cul-
prits had escaped; and he thought, that if this impression of
it went abroad, it would do much mischief.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN explained that the gentleman who wrote
the letter did not so much rejoice that the culprits had escaped,
as that they had not been subjected to a process of torture to
lore., them to do that which they would not otherwise do from
a sewn of duty.—(Oh, oh.")
Lord CLEMENTS congratulated the House upon the
firmness the Government had displayed in the present
instance. It would be utterly impossible to carry on these
works without resorting to the measures authorised by the
order of the Lord-Lieutenant. He did not believe that any
public office would have been worth a day's purchase had it
not been for that order.

Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN said some time previous to
the is.euing of the order in question, he made a communication
to the Government from his part of the country, recommending
them to issue it. He was therefore prepared to share its re-
sponsibility with the Government. Until property was ren-
dered secure in Ireland, they could not hope that capitalists
would invest their money in it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he must
trespass for a few moments upon the attention of the House,
while he made an explanation in reference to a statement he
made the other night. On Friday night last he stated,
upon the authority of a gentleman well versed in such
matters, that only from twenty to thirty men per
mile were employed in the construction of a railway,
and therefore that only 25 per cent. of the actual cost was
expended in labour. Last night the Honourable Member
for Shrewsbury said that he had mistaken the meaning of his
informant, and he (the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury had had
a communication with him), who stated he meant there were
only 23 labourers per mile permanently employed upon a railway.
(LEFT SPEAKING )

LATEST PRICES OF SHARES,
N BANKS, ASSURANCE, AND OTHER CON
PANIES' STOCK.

From etc jflicial List,
ÜBLISUED EVERY TUESDAY AND FRIDAY EVENING
LONDON, TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 16
JOINT-STOCIE BILNICS.

Dividend Amount
Name of Company, per of Paid. Fri
Annum. Share.
-- -
tustralasia -..•• • • • • 6/. per cent. 40 0 0 40 0 0
ilritsli North American 51. per cent. 50 0 0 50 0 0 -
.lommercial of London 5/. per cent. 100 0 0 20 0 0 I -
:?olonial.. .....• .• •• • 51. per cent. 100 0 0 25 0 0 -
Londn and Westminstr 61. per cent. 100 0 0 20 0 0
London Joint-Stock ... 61. per cent. 50 0 0 10 0 0 -
Metropolitan - 25 0 0 710 0
Provincialof Ireland.. 81. per cent. 100 0 0 25 0 0 44
Ditto, New... ... • -8/. per cent. 10 0 0 10 0 0 -
National of Ireland .. Si. per cent. 50 0 0 20 0 0 -
Nat. Provncial of Eng. 51. per cent. 100 0 0 35 0 0 -
Ditto, New......• • . 51. per cent. 20 0 0 10 0 0
Union of Australia •• • • 61. per cent. 25 0 0 25 0 0 -
Union of London.- -5/. per cent. ,50 0 0 10 0 0 -
INSURANCE COMPANIES.
Dividend Amount
Name of Company. per of Paid. Pric
Annum. Share.
£ a. d. £ a. d.
Albion .. --••.• • • • • 31. 101. 500 0 0 50 0 0 75
Alliance trit. and For. 6 per cent. 100 0 0 11 0 0 19
Ditto Marine -• • 6/. per cent, 100 0 0 50 0 5
Atlas . 130.6 d. pr sh. 50 0 0 5 0 0 15
British Commercial .. 7s. per share 50 0 0 50 0 7]
i'lericl,Med.& Gen• Life 51. per cent. 100 0 0 210 0 -
C.ounty .............. 31. 100 0 0 10 0 0
10s. 50 0 0 5 0 0 -
Eagle •
Eng.& Scot. Law •• •• 5/. per cent. 50 0 0 20 0 3
European Life ••• • • • 5% .per cent. 20 0 0 All paid. 20
Freemasons'. ••-• • • • 51. per cent. 20 0 0 3 iii 0
Globe - 132 x
Guardian - - •••• •• • • 51. per cent. 100 0 0 36 10 0 481
imperial Fire ..... • -6/. and bonus .500 0 0 50 0 0 230
Imperial Life ........ 12s. 100 0 0 10 0 0 -
Indemnity Marine..., 11. sh. & be. 100 0 0 613 1 31
Law Life• ••.••• • • • .. 1/. Ss. 100 0 0 10 0 0 -
.iegal and General Life - 50 0 0 20 0 V,
.;andon Fire .. ••• . • • 10s. 25 0 0 12 10 0 15
•ondon Ship ........ 10s. 25 0 0 12 10 0 15
Marine.. ....• ••• • .. 5/. per cent. 100 0 0 15 0 0
Ved. Invlid&Gen. Life 431 1. per ct. 50 0 0 2 0 0 48s,
National Lean Fund.. 5/. per cent. 20 0 0 210 0 -
National Life..,.
1-1 allndium Life 5l. per cent. 50 0 0 2 0 0 2xi
['timing • 3/. p. ct. & be. - - 195
Protector Life.... •.. 5/. per cent. 20 0 0 1 0 0 21s. 0,
Provident Life - • • 1/. ss. 100 0 0 10 0 0 23
Rock Life.... •• ...... 4s. 50 0 010 0 43i
Royal Exchange 5l. per cent. Stock. - -
Sun Fire ......... •• • 6/. 10s. - - 210
Ditto Life . 11. 6s. - - 49
Universal Life -
• CANALS.
.; I 1
...; Dividend
Names of E Dividend Names of
Companies. 2 ; per , Price. Companies. 5 per Price.
re:
.. Minum. 1 Annum.' m
X' £
Aslitn& 01411 97 51.55. p c - Monmouthsh 100 8/. -
Ashby-d-la-Z 113 4/. ; - Mntgomrysh 100 51. Barnsley.. • • ,160 121. ' - Macclesilt Id. 100 - -
...._
Basingstoke..:loo - - Neath •..... 100 171. -
11rknk&Abrgi150, 5/. - Nottingham. 150 121. -
Cromford•••• 1001 141. - Peak Forest. 78 31. 75
Dudley lOO 41. - Regent's ...• 33 1/. ss. 20
Derby .• • • ,100 6/. - - Rochdale •••• 85 41. -
EllsmrekChsll33, 4/. 55 Shropshire •• 125 8/. -
Eyewash . • .1001 321. - Somrset Coal 150 71.105. -
F I
Forth & Clyd 1001 4/. - Do.l.kFd St 12 6/. -
tlrandJunetnloo, 71. -- Stfrrd &wore 140 28p
I.c.
-
t.rand Union 100, IL 10s. - Shrewsbury.. 125 15/. -
Glamorgnsh . 1721 13%1. - gStourbridge.. 145 201. 315
iiistr&Brkly, ,O 0 - - Strtfrdon Av 79 11. 10s. -
Grantham • • 150; 12/. - Severn and
fl l
uddersneld. 57 - - Wye Itail.
26 1/. Bs. -
Remit & Atli 39 7s. td. ; 514 Trnt& Mr-1
Lancaster. ••• 47 I/. 10s. -11 cry 50 301. -
, IA sh. j '
Leeds& Livrp 100 341. 52214 •Thanis&Med 19 - I -
Leicester ... • 1401 10/, 10. t IVorcstr &
,i 78 2/.
Leicstr &Nth 83. 4/, 52 Birniing. j 43
Loughborogh,l42, 70/. - `Wilts & Mks/ 67 11. -

LIST Or SCOTTISE,
ide7do
IVIAP:ouNntX4S' PRICES
Name of Company. per of Paid. I Price.
Annum. Share.
-------
----------
----- Bank of Scotland
Royal Bank of Scotland 61. per cent. 100 0 British Linen Company 8/. per cent. . 100 0 0 2156%
Commercial Bank ... • 20
National Bank . • ..... • 6/. per cent. 100 0 0 166
per cent. 10 0 0 13/.15s
Union Bank of Scotland 17341. pr sent. 50 0 0 9134
Western Bank .....• • • 6/. per cent. 50 0 0 83%
North of Scotland Bank 61. per cent. 50 0 7 %
Clydesdale Bank.... • • 6/. per cent. 10 0 0 12
Eastern Bank .....• • • 5/. per cent. 10 0 0 12%,
Caledonian Bank .. • • 7341. pr cent. 210 0 41. 9s
Ed in b.& Glasgow Bank 61. per cent. 50 0 j6l. 18s
City of Glasgow Bank . 51. per cent. 10 0 0 1274
Scottish Union Ins. Co. 51. per cent. 20 0 0 1 0 0 24e. Od
Hercules Insurance Co. 71. per cent. 1100 0 0 10 0 0 14%
Inset. Co. of Seetlnd.. 51. per cent. 110 0 0 All paid. 9.4
North British Insur... 5341. pr cent. /200 0 0 10 0 0 27%
Caledonian Fire Insur. 101. per cent. 100 0 0 10 0 0 22%
Edinburgh Life Incur. 6/. per cent. 1100 0 0 12 10 0 18
Edin. &Glasg. Railway 1/.los. per c. 50 0 0 50 0 0 75
Ditto, IA Shares... • 7s. 6d. p. s. 12 10 0 All paid. 19
Edin., Leith, & Grantn 20 0 0 20 0 0 21
Glasgw & Ayrshir Rail. 71. per cent. 50 0 0 All paid. 69%
Glasgw & Greenck Rail. 21. per cent. 25 0 0 All paid. 16%
tllsgw & Garnkirk Rail. M. per cent. 25 0 0 All paid. 39%
Dundee& Arbroth Rail. 61. per cent. 25 0 0 All paid. 37
Standard Lite Aslspirnee.l Si. per cent. 50 0012 10 0 9
DOC/CS.
Dividend : Amount
Name of Company. per
I i of I Paid. , Price.
Annum. , Share.
1
X s. d. £ s. d. 1
Commercial ....
! East and West India ! 61. pr cent. Stock. i 135%
EaSt Country

Commercial ...
East and Mat India.,
Eaqt Country
Imann ••• .
ft.liatitarino ........
Southampton • • ..

X s. d.
31. per cent. i Stock.
6t. pr cent. ' Stock.
U. per ch. ilOl 0 0
5/. pr cent. ) Stock.
5 per cent. ! Stock.
U. per cent. 50 0 0 50 0 0

•
introduced at the present moment for the purpose of
meeting what was supposed to be a temporary exigency,
not for the purpose of creating a precedent, but intro-
duced upon its own grounds, and ho had a confident
belief that it would be found most benefl'eial. It un
doubtedly would have given him mere satisfhetidn to
have introduced to the consideration of their Lordships
a measure which had for its object to stimulate etep!ey-
meat in Ireland. It was his duty to press upon to it
Lordships the necessity of passing the measure with the
least possible delay. The Noble Marquis concluded by
moving the second reading of the Bill.
Lord BROUGHAM wished to offer a few observa-
tions on the first of the series of measures which the
Government intended to bring forward with respect to
Ireland, now that it was practically before them. Ile
felt deeply for the lamentable distress, accounts of
which arrived by every post, not only from the sish r
kingdom, but from• Scotland and the north of England.
But there was ern) fact, on which the eye reposed with-
out the heist disecinifhrt—namely,, the good feeling
which generally pre% ailed on the subject of distr. ss
throughout the country, and the absence of all indul-
gence in splenetic feeheg, of all violent invective, by of either Meese of Parliament. He hardly
knew what part of the Bill to commence with ; but in
the outset, he could not help repeating the opedon
which he shadowed forth at the b. ginning of the sessien
(and he said it in no offensive spirit), that they ought to
have assembled earlier in the year.—(Hear, hear.)
That was not the time at which they ought
to have been called upon to discuss the measure.
He was most decidedly of opinion that their Lordships
ought to have been called together in the month of
November. It might be said, however, that it was better
not to bring the Irish Members and landlords over to this
conntry, but to leave them in Ireland. If it was for the
good of Ireland that the Irish. landlords should remain
in Ireland in the month of November, it was equally
urgent for them to be there now.—(Hear, hear.) It was
doubtful even whether the landlords would do the more
good by remaining in Ireland or coming over to this
country, especially when it was considered that upon the
estate of one nobleman 4,000 ejectments had been issued,
and that, too, in the middle of one of the most severe
winters, and in a season of unparalleled scarcity.. He
held it as his most decided opinion that it was no part of
the duty of any Government to feed the people of any
country, or to provide food, or wages, or labour for the
people; but it was the duty of a Government to secure
the rights of property, never to interfere upon any pre-
text with either the one right or the other, to remove
every obstacle, to relieve the people from every impedi-
ment to their progress, either of law or of violence, the
iniquity of man or of the courts, by improving the laws,
or amending the laws, by improving the Legislature, but
ice not to interpose anything in the way of every
man dealing with his property and employing his la-
- boor as he thought fit 'and might feel inclined. The Go-
vernment had no vocation or obligation imposed upon it
by the relative situations of ruler and subject to provide
either food or labour for the people. This principle
- should be deeply imprinted upon the thieds of every
Government—it was a principle which should never be de-
parted from except upon cases of the most urgent no-
its cessity. The proof of this emergency rested upon
those who claimed this exception. Another proof which
he required in his proposition was, that they
could so apply the funds entrusted to their
- . care as to grant the relief in question. It was also a
part of the proposition, and a necessary essential
condition, "that the State had no vocation to
give any relief whatever ; all the funds which they voted
away was solely and entirely the property of others.
ice There were certain positions in which it was
more difficult to stand still even when persons knee
that if they moved it was at their highest peril. It
was more difficult sometimes to do nothing even
'l4 when they were convinced that it was their
04 duty to do nothing. The next position wee, that
the Government must take especial care in the present
emergency that what they did did not tend to make
things worse, and thereby do harm instead of good. It
xd might not, perhaps, be considered as too bold of him to
say that it was hardly possible to devise any remedy hut
would create more harm than the relief it gave or pro-
xd fessed to have given. It was not according to nature
`4 that it should be so, or in accordance with the rules and
structure of society. All the measures adopted by
Government had gone upon an entirely different prin-
ciple. The Government sent over money to Ireland,
called upon the people to come to work, they found
the work for them, paid them for the work, and who
• could doubt but that was the cause of great mischief;
IL Their Lordships had had a lesson already of the ill effects
of such a course of proceeding in the evil results which
xd had hallowed the Labour-rate Act passed lest session.
$ The Government were now attempting to remedy that
,°ll mistake; but it was too late, the effects would still re-
main ; they had got into a slough, and worse than that,
their feet were caught so that they could not get back
again, for having spoiled all the roads throughout
the country, it was but fair that the Government
- should accede to the request of the people of
Ireland at least to put the roads in the same state as they
- found them.—(Laughter.) Ile to .eked upon the present
measure with some degree of suspicion; he thought that
its effects would be felt even after the famine had passed
over; but they had diverted the labour of- the country,
and thereby caused great mischief. The present 8.11
was certainly a little more disguised than the former one.
In a letter written by Sir G. Grey to the Lore!
Lieutenant, lie stated that relief should oely
be given in food, to be purchased out of
the funds placed at the disposal of the committees from
the three sources—assessment for the relief of the par r,
charitable subscriptions and donations, and Government
help. Then the letter went on to say that there would be
a gratuitous distribution of food on a large scale, but
the corn or flour meal was never to be sold at less than
cost price. An ordinary reader would learn such a re-
solution with horror —he (Lord Brougham) did not
mean a political economist, that much maligned indivi-
dual—he meant such a reader as could count ten upon
his fingers. The food, then, was not to he cold ar fens
than cost price ; but the very next sentence went on to
say that the food was to he given fiar—nothing
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—To those who are
starving.
Lord BROUGHAM continued to say, that whether the
buyer was starving or not, the extreme conditions on which
the Government were to let him have food were cast price, or
nothing.—( Laughter.) Supposing a person had fourpence,
but the cost price of the corn was a shilling, the Government
however, would absolutely refuse to take the fourpence, and world
rather give away the flour and meal for nothing. He asked
them why they would not take what the poor people could give ;
there were many degrees between want and wealth ; why, he
asked them, would they not take the man's groat ? He did not
wish to be understood as slighting, by anything he said, the
difficulty of dealing with the subject— ( Hear, hear,
from Lord Lansdowne)—or, to throw discredit even
on the letter which he had been commenting upon,
for there could not be a more &ear and sensible letter
than it was; indeed it was too clear.—(Laughter.) But the
letter proceeded, " It is of great importance,' in that he (Lord
Brougham) quite agreed, " that this object ought ever to be
kept in view, namely, the prieervation of the relations between
the labourer and the landowner." But he (Lord Brougham)
contended that the measure before their Lord -hips had just a
tendency to prevent that. The letter adds that the ielief must
be applied in a way which should not tend to encourage idleness.
The. encouragement of idleness would just be the effect pro-
duced, for between the two parties in the market, the labourer
and ihe agriculturalist, a third party interfered, and offer, il
the labourer, in case he could not purchase at a certain price,
a full supply of his wants for nothing ; the effect which that
would have upon the labour market could not he
a matter of doubt with any one, at least no one, he thought,
could suppose that it would prove a "stimulus to labour," as
the letter of the Right Hon. Secretary had it. Such a mea-•
sure could prove no stimulus to labour in a ronntry where the
people were certainly not characterised by the industry of the Eng-
lishman or the pride of the Scotchman—the pride which would
net suffer him to beg, if the severest struggles could maintain
his self-dependence ; nay, the Scotchman—and praise and ho-
nour be to him for it—would rather starve and lie down and
die quietly on his own hill-side, rather than be obliged to ask
alms of another and betake himself to begging for
his support. That was actually the caul at the present
moment in that country; he revered the people
there for that trait, which did them honour, their
feeling no doubt being that of the Italian poet,
when he said of his own case that he had been under the netts.
sity of standing and receiving alms, but that was an act that
made him tremble at every fibre of his frame with shame and
indignation. Yet the Government appeared to think that the
present measure would prove a stimulus to labour. The letter
to which he had already so often alluded proceeded with its in-
structions to the Government agents, who were directed never
to give food, flour, meal, or soup for nothing, to any individual,
without in each case—he (Lord Brougham) begged their
Lordships attention to this—each case—and every single case
would necessarily be different from another—yet the distribu-
tion of food for nothing was not to be made without in each
case being convinced that the person could not find labour in
order to obtain wages with which to pay for the food. Why,
the case supposed was that of a person starving, about whom
this circuitous inouiry was to be made and satisfied before re-
lief could be administered. In fact it was an instruction that
could not be carried into effect ; it was utterly impossible to
carry it out. But not the least painful part of the whole cme
Was to have to make the remarks which he felt it his duty to
make on behalf of the intores's of the country at large, on be-
half of Englishmen, and of all who could support themselves,
whether whether English or Irish. The measure would not
the present year in all the evil consequences which woulde cer-
tainly' follow upon its operation in draining
,n labour from the
the crops should
pursuits of agriculture, but
""
diseases ino" the potato should be
improve next year, and that the
cured, still the effect would be seriously felt on the labour market.
Ihe Noble Lord then proceeded to eulogise one little district in
Ireland where the poor had contribute) in money to the amours
of 1761., and where they could not give money others contri-
buted labour in relief of the distressed and necessitous ; it was
he said, worthy to be exhibited as an honour
altogether a case,
able, a noble exemplar. But he was sorry to add, that i nthe
same district where the poor people had acted in so noble a
manner, and contributed 1761., besides labour, the rich land-
lords had contributed 40/. The Noble Lord then referred to
the case of the Misses Gaskell, who had gone to Ireland to
live upon their estates, for the purpose of superintending the
distribution of their charity, and in order that their charity
—which he deprecated being misunderstood to speak against—
in order that their charity might be free from abuse. Ile
could refer to other noble cases, and among the others
that of Lady Carberry, who had actually reduced herself to the
mere necessaries of life that she might minister to the necessi-
ties of the neighbourhood. But that was a noble and a useful
example, and such had been exhibited by the Misses
Gaskell; they had been able to effect great good on behalf of
the really necessitous. These ladies reported that at least one-
third of the Government money was received by those who
had really no claim on the benevolent. That showed the
good which would result from these benevolent ladies super•
intending the distribution of their own charity, and it, evinced
the evil arising from the efforts of the Government, well meant,
perhaps, but ill-directed. Yet these were evils which would
spread and take deeper root, and throw a more dismal shadoc
over the whole of the land. He hoped, at the same time, the, his
observations would not be misunderstood by the persons across
St. George's Channel, who were accustomed to think that the
union had much to do with the evils which were at present
existing in that country—persons who were accustomed to look
back to their golden age as the period when a body existed
not a bow-shot from the College, or College-green--a body si,
pure, the most upright and honourable since the days, of the
Spartans, the mostdistinguished for Lacedremonian purity while
it existed. Bat it would be found that even in these days there
were evils prevailing. The Noble Lord then referred to a letter
from Lord Chancellor Jocelyn to Leed Chancellor Hardwick.
It stated that in Ireland they were then in a very melancholy

condition, on account of the previous two hard winters ; .for
the people, accustomed to mild and temperate seasons, had not
laid up provisions in sufficient quantity. Disease and fever then
prevailed, and crime increased so much that they were
oblieed to :end three judges on the assizes to Munster and
Leinster. One of the judges had died of the gaol fever, and
the Attorney-General, whohad volunteered, for a benevolent
purpose, to go on the same circuit, had died alto. The same
letter stated that the judges were offended daily with the
most miserable spectacles of expiring wretches, and the most
noisome effluvia. The Noble Lord continued to say that much
had been referred to the power of law, but he doubted whether
it could ever recreate any near approach to
an Irish Parliament. The position in which the
people of England were at present placed was, that
though straitened themselves, they were called tines
for an advance of money which it was said would be repaid.
He would not question that the people of Ireland might really
nish to repay, but what he had doubt of was, whether they
would ever be able. But he had another reason for speaking
as he had done ; he saw that notwithstanding all the clamoured
necessity the Irish gentlemen still contrived to live in luxury
with livsried servants and their French wines ; and one thing
he would put to them was, how was it they did not pay be
many taxes a$ the English people? They were at least free
from those which pressed heavily on this country. There wail
the income-tax, which was very heavy in its operations, though
not quite so heavy as it once was ; there were the cess-taxes,
snd, he believed, the land-taxes, which they were not subject
to, (Lord Lansdowne—They pay quit rents.) Well, at least they
were free from the payment of the income and cess- taxes, amount-
ing to four millions and a half, which this csuntry had to NIP
The land in Ireland did not maintain its own poor, as it did in
England. Nevertheless he admitted that something must be
done to prevent the painful state of distress in the west of Ire'
land, for they had heard that 27,000 had come over to Liver
pool in one month. It was quite a mistake to say that persons
who came over at the rate of nine hundred a day were an'
grants, intending to make their way to other parts Of the
world. They were professional beggars, who came there to
obtain food, and to stay until they were removed. He was told
that persons in Ireland who occupied an inferior position in life
kept servants and carriages, which a similar class in this country
Would not dream of doing ; they were parties who were fit to
pay a higher tax than they did. There were very few inert'
gages in France ; but in Ireland, reckoning the value of the
rent of the land et 14,000,0001. a year, 5,000,000/. Of
6,000,0001. went to the mortgagee annually. This was
great exascerbation of the evil under which they laboured, for
the mortgagee did not care for the famine or failure of the
potato crop. —( Hear, hear.) He was sorry to have felt it hn
duty to utter these unpalatable truths ; but he was not in the
position of an individual who was bestowing his own charity"'
he Was a law-giver and a law-maker; he was not giving ewel
his own money, but the money of the public, one of winne
trustees he was. The money was . for the relief of the eel"
ployer as well as the employed, and would in his opinion he
injurious in the end to both.
Lord LUCAN wished to ask the Noble and Learned Lot
from whom he derived his information that as many as 4,00
ejectments had been made in a short time in one part e
Ireland ?
Lord BROUGHAM said the statement was made by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer in the course of his address to
the House of Commons on Friday last, and that it was net
gainsaid by any one who heard it.
Lord LUCAN said it was stated at the last sessions at"
nar 6,000 processes were issued ; now he was correo
in saying that 400 had mot been issued, and they were
issued at the instance of middlemen for conacre, because so
ejectment could be made on such a process. When the Noble
Lord talked about wishing to discuss the question with greet
feeling, he could not help thinking that the speech which the
Noble and Learned Lord had just delivered was more act
monious than any speech he had ever heard. He did not
believe one word of the statement with respect to the eject'
ments.
Lord BROUG HAM said it was stated that out of 6,0
cases 4,000 were processes, with this addition, that this
accounted for the immense number which had emigrated to
Liverpool. He naturally thought they were ejectments and
not mere processes; for What could induce persons to collie
ever in such large numbers, except that they had been ejected
from their holdings ?
The 'Marquis of WESTMEATH explained that the pod
cesses were simply for debt, and not for ejectment.
Lord STANLEY did not wish to offer any factions orlPt
sition to the passing of the measure, but was content to tsus°
it as a temporary measure—as one, however, which in his es 4:
mation violated all the principles of political economy, and si°,
the rules of common sense. It was a Bill which, if it he'
been submitted to him except for the purpose of meeting
temporary calamity, and one which they all thought wale
lead to the preservation of large masses of the population et
the point of perishing 'from famine, would have encountered
his determined opposition ; and he was 'satisfied that 00 far
from receiving the unanimous sanction of that or the other,
House of Parliament, it would have been Nina
exceedingly difficult to have found any Member
in either House to take the responsibility of introducing
( Hear, hear.) He wished in the first instance to address
himself to some of the provisions of the Bill, for the purpose
of showing their Lordships, mere especially after the speech
which had been delivered by his Noble and Learned Friend, in
which he thought he threw too severe a censure on the conduct
of Irish landlords, the almost irresponsible power which it
would place in the hands of the Government and of the lee"'
committees till applied under the Act. He wished their
Lordships and the country to understand, and to have placed
before them the way in which Irish landlords had voluntarilf
consented to be taxed for the relief of the indigent in their
own neighbourhoods, and how they had consented to have that
relief dispensed. He did not think there was an instance in
which so much power was sought to be placed in the bands °
any Government as was sought by this Bill. There was the
power of local taxation to an almost unlimited amount, and of
issuing money from the Treasury without the control of the
Executive government of the country. It appeared
that the
_
Lord-Lieutenant was authorised to appoint a certain number
of persons to act in the capacity of relief commissioners, who
had unlimited power of appointing as many officers, and with
as large salaries as might be required by the exigencies of the
case. First of all, the Lord-Lieutenant was to issue orders,
that in any electoral district, or any division of it, which he
might think fit to constitute, a committee should be constituted
as a relief committee, which, with the exception that the reg..
dent justices within that district, and the elected guardian'.
must be guardians of it, was to be constituted by the sole Will
and pleasure of the Lord-Lieutenant. The inspector was alto
to be a member of it. This power of the Lord-Lieutenant
might lead to the exclusion of the landed proprietors
of the district. Mere committees had to frame lists
containing the names ef those whom they considered fit
recipients of relief, with unlimited Isomer to select thew in-
dividuals, and with unlimited power as to the number who were
to be placed on the lists, and receive relief; and this committee,
so constituted, was authorised to expend certain sums of
money which they and the Lord-Lieutenant might think fit for
the relief of those individuals. It might be said that there was
a check put upon any undue expenditure by the finance come
mittee. It was a cheek, but the check was only upon the local
authorities, and not upon the Government. It was true the
Lord-Lieutenant had the power of altering or amending the
expenditure of those committees ; but he might amend the
expenditure by increasing it—at least there was nothing in the
Act to prevent him from doing so. The expenditure was,
therefore, at the option of the three or four persons who eon:
stituted the committee, one of whom was the Government
inspector, and who were appointed at the will and pleasure 0e
the Le:el-Lieutenant, to incur what expenses they thought'
proper—there was no restriction. It was just peesible
that they might cor sist of parties who were net
responsible for one farthing of the expenditure they
incurred ; and let it be borne in mind—let it be
in the recollection of their Lordships, that the measure had re;
ceived the consent of the Irish Members of Parliament, and of
Irish Peers in that House, so deep was their sense of the pre-
sent calamity, so anxious was their desire to do all in their,
power to meet an appalling emergency. He did not say that
their conduct was reckless ; but he said so simply to show the
great lengths they were prepared to go rather than allow the people
to die from famine. It showed that Irish proprietors were dir
posed to entrust unlimited power of taxing the Wh°4l
property they possessed in the hands of those coin'
mittees.—( Hear, hear.) He would say that they had c 00"
sented to place their whole property in the hands of an irre'
sponsible tribunal. The way in which, without distinction of
party or political feeling, they had rendered the control of
their whole property, or rather the taxation of their whole
property, into the hands of the Government, and of the Lord'
Lieutenant, not only for the relief of those or, their own pro'
perty, but those in their immediate neighbourhood, showed
that at that moment the Irish landowner did not deserve to
have imputed to him that he was indifferent to the sufferings
of the people, and that they were unwilling to take upon their
own shoulders the burden of supporting the people.— ( Hears
hear.) Then with regard to British people, this Bill gave'
for the first time, most extraordinary powers, because power
was granted to the Executive to dispose of British money for
the relief of distress in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) It
was true the Bill stated that the loans for this pur-
pose should be limited to 300,000/. ; but unless he
misunderstood the Bill, it gave, over and above, powers, with
regard to which no limit was placed, as it gave the Commis-
sioners of the Treasury power to make grants of whatever stun
they might think proper in aid of the subscription raised in
various parts of Ireland in aid of alleviating the prevailing dis-
tress.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—Sums voted for that pur-
pose—sums granted from time to time for that purpose bi
Parliament.
Lord STANLEY admitted that so far he was in error ; but
of the definite sums they had no means of judging. The
Bill, as he had said, was no doubt of a most
exceptional character, and violated every principle of political
economy. It might leave, as his Learned Friend had said, be-
hind it some evil, though it might do some immediate good.
It would lead the people to an habitual dependence upon the
people of this country for support when their country was
afflicted by any similar calamity. Were their Lordships pre-
pared fo overlook them ? The other House had overlooked
them before the prominent consideration that the people of
Ireland should not be allowed to starve. There were no other
considerations which could have justified the introduction of
the Bill. The powers granted by it with regard to many
public measures were almost unlimited, and with regard to the
local taxation of Ireland absolutely unlimited. It was to the
credit of the Irish proprietors of land, that not one word of
complaint had been offered as to the extent in which the whole
property was to be encumbered by taxation by irresponsible
authorities. That was one of the provisions of this Bill, and
which, perhaps, he should say, was more objectionable than
any of the others. It was a greater power than was ever before
vested in any irresponsible body—that not only they should n%
the amount of taxation for particular districts, but that they
should declare, according to their will and pleasure,' who were
the persons who were to be called upon to pay it. That pre-
vision, strong as it was, was, in his opinion, infinitely less
objectionable and dangerous than the one which was to be
given to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, who was not only to
have the power of saying that A should pay for A's poor, and
B for B's poor, or A and B together should pay for their poor,
but the power of saying that A, B, and C, being together,
should pay conjointly for the district which they occupied, and
for which C might not be responsible for the inhabitancy of a
single poor person. The power was unlimited. He did not
doubt that it would be wisely and properly exercised, but it was
an enormous power to vest in any single person. He was not
going, as he said before, objectionable as the Bill was, to sng-
ge,t ally alteration ; he would rather that the responsibility
was left with her Majesty's Government, than that
any attempt should be made to alter or
ma-
terially amend the Bill. He would rather it
should at once be passed. This was a great national emer-
gency, and these powers the Government deemed indispenee
able. They asked for their confidence, and it ought to be
given to them to the fullest and most unlimited extent; and,
although he was conscious that there were some provisions
of this Bill which ought to be amended, yet, under these pe-
cu'iar circumstances, and the measure being a temporary one,,
it would be better that the Bill should pass as proposed by
the Government, than that their Lordships should attempt to
amend that which in all its provisions was so exceptional,
that it would be difficult to interfere with it. That for which
,ie ruse principally was to express his earnest hope that en
this proposition—considerin the readiness which the Irish
Members and proprietors in' the, other House of Parliament
had shown to inset the views of Government, in legislating
for an immediate remedy for a temporary but most formidable
emergency, the Government would be cautious how they af,"
coached the subject of a more permanent relief.—(Hear,
hear.) The evil which might be done by improvident legis-
Wiwi for the next eight months might be inconsiderable, but
the evil which it would do if they introduced