The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-25 00:00:00

'MORNING EDIIIION.
The Noble Lord was difficult to 1
please—(Hear, hear)
thesecond
—and so the franchise of the Irish people was 'to Ix?
, frittered array, nndwh en
gainvi yet
his Billm
vetotot
eagainst
s;s,itimp-eveifirts t
the
unqualified present
opposition.sl'ste 11mwas e introduced
should
reading of the Bill before the House, and ahould give
the Bill of the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley) his
decided opposition. It had been said, those ma tters that
he
tsseo-
whener
(or eds complainediitrifhuet\hsc,Be.
oirmsl
lromi
wouldarSomerville)
tpore vlfeeii. in
fts)ha: Noblerethtahhaneotcuhwßgi
sohicluti
would
theeel
sobaduees' I Lord's
athe
ißillrbve be
very
community,
ootylotnmigi
justifiedagm.or l:u. tolerated,
e di
tie.
argu-
mentoaia.uitla
tptahsaset
ttileand
offerinpglaceoversyuoneupopusmoseiition to the Bill in his power, rather
ttuhdaen of the interests ngoshwhtyouatlidnterests in jeopardy. It was
havestake.
it was right
Billrigh
alsfenthsee of
fobtillee nrgordkii's-
the trutn should be told—.
it was right the Government
it was right the Right dotn should know the truth, and
Baronet opposite (Sir R.
Peel) should know rue trut' • if the Noble' Lord's Bill
passed, they must be prepareni—
to govern Leland by- other
means and with another wea
hi0n.....i:
was
his
firth
belie,
thateon ti.tr!an that of public! opi-
, the House passed that
011 all attempt at conciliation In Ireland by means of
public opinion would fail. e should oppose the
becauseßill, he did not
wish to see • tech a
st, ate of things existing—( Hear) d
s.
'
--7-an tecause he
attached to the Union that existed bet eeen the
eountries, as lon as itcould
~...
bon g
l-a7l; fo,
,n 1 .--- Hear,( hear, from the Repealere.) Ife
had not be. afraid to express that opinion,--he had ad-•
h.
re
hoed to it th. oug goad report and through csi!l • port,
'••
because he thougel tha
ieethe Union, if maintained upon a
basi.s of equality, won as tel.:.el-
to the advantage of both.
It was his wish to see 6,,at,:xperiment which the Go-
vernment was new making stice-eiesfni, and to be a witness
of the progressive improvendent of I.'etand in conjunction
with the improvement that tfre union of the two coun-
tries wan calculated to confer on both, and not to rest on
any weapon except public ie inion. Therefore it was that,
riot offering any factious! osition to the Bill of this
Noble Lord opposite, be Telt bound to resist it—he must
Ki,
therefore continue to give aids tucest strenuous opposition,
and 11,. was convinced that theAst way of doing so was to
support, independently of the'riiklts of the Bill itself, the
Bill of the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland. He
could not conceal from Idirself that the rejection of than
Bill was tantamount to the adoption of that of the Noble
Lord.—(Cheers.) •
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON was glad to observe that the
speech of t!.e lion. Baronet who had just sat aesse was
characterized by the saiDe spirit of moderation which had
characterized the whole debate, end he was gratified to
find that a debate of such importance was likely to be con-
ducted with such tszieporee -The.'llea. Baronet bad fol-
leveed-in the footsteps of the Hon. Secret...oy of ‘Var, who,
in the debate of last evening, had entered rather into the
merits of the Bill of the Noble Lord the Member for North
Lancashire, than into that of the Noble Secretary for Ire-
land. Both those gentlemen had assailed the BPi of the
Noble Lord because it gave a double appeal. They had
however forgotten that the law at present gave the appeal
one way, and the alteration introduced by the Noble Lord,
giving it both ways, was, he considered, rasher an improve-
meat than otherwise. But the Bill of the Noble Secre-
tary for Ireland professed to give the appeal. both ways on
matters of law, and therefore itwas equally asnenable to the
criticisms of the Secretary of War and of the Hem. Baronet.
The Right Hon. Baronet said the present was a Bill de-
fining the franchise. lie denied that ; it recited Cult doubts
existed, and instead of removing those doubts, an I declar-
ing the lair, it displaced the exiting franchise altoge-
ther, and adopted a new one entirely subversive of thu
Reform Bill. The Hon. Baronet was likewise mistaken-
whets ho represented that his Noble Friend was opposed
to any principle of rating. His Noble Friend objected to
no such thing, and he believed that there were many gen-
tlemen, on that side of the house who thought it would be
an excellent thing to adopt the test of rating. He for one
should be delighted to try that standard. The Hon. BE_
road had fallen into another error—he had seated t hat the
Noble Lord wes inconsistent with himself, .that lee dis-
franchised the 40s. freeholders because they were depen-
dent on their lendlordr, and he refused to enfranchise these
51. raters because they would be independene . of their
landlords. Now the very reverse was t:Ste fact.
The class of electors now proposed to be created s 'odd be
more objectionable infinitely than the 40s. freeholders.--
( Hew-, hear.) He was greatly surprised last night- that
the Right Hon. Gentleman who closed the debate should
have chosen to follow the powerful, argumentative, and
conclusive speech of the Hon. and Learned Member for
Exeter, with such a frothy piece of declamationy which. had
no sense ncr argument.—(Hear, hear, and _laugh ter.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Macaulay) was lie
(Mr. Jackson) believed a member of the legal prefer.-
lion. But in his speech of last night he showed ate
entire ignorance of law.—( Hear, and a laugh.)) The
Right Honourable Gentleman said that there ought
to ba no re-investigation of the franchise, when once.- de-
cide I, became no re-investigation of a case once decided
in a Court of Justice was allowed. lii fact, nothing aas
more frequent than re-investigation of a case in which ne w
evidence was discovered. New trials were constantly
granted where a verdict had been obtained by surprise or
by perjury. In cases of real property, ejections ware
issued agaia and again, after judgment had been given a
dozen tirees in favour of the person in possession.
Mr. O'CONNELL made some observation which was-
not heard in the gallery, but excited some laughter and
cries cf " Order."

.1 Mr. Sergeant JACKSON would be glad to he cos-
i reefed by the lion. and Learned Gentleman when lie rose
in his place. The effect of the 5/. franchise on tine coun-
ties would be to substitute a pauper qualification for the
property qualification which was created by the Reform Bill.
He sail that the proposed system was a direct contraven-
tion of the Reform Act, by subverting the existing quail'-
. fication—not defining iit—and substituting a towel,. one
in its place. He would not object to adopting the Poor-
law valuation, provided it were required that toe clain lapis
should have a 101. interest in his holding over and ate we
the rent. The Bill then before the House appeared to
have been originally too Bills. It contained two sets or
clauses; the one relating to the registry and the otherro.
the franchise. The first eighteen clauses referred to the,
former subject, and he found that that portion was printed
differently from the latter part, in which the type was
larger, and was leaded, so that it was spread over twice
as much space as that which preceded. His impression,
therefore, was, that the Bill was not that which it was at
first intended should be introduced; and perhaps the
Noble Lord, looking to the result of recent elections, and
to the dissensions among his own followers, hacf. thougto;
proper to alter the measure, in order to satisfy toe more
violent of his party.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He (Mr.
Sergeant Jackson) would, however, venture to s, ay that
Ministers could never expect the Bill to be passe 1 into
a law ; and he believed they would not ask the HOCSO to
go into Committee on it either next week or the week- aftser,
and probably not until after Easter. The Bill was a ate re
make-belief, and was supported on the second reading 'ay
many Hun. Gentlemen opposite, who would not vote _for
the 51. qualification. The Noble Lord in introducing ti le
Bill, bad admitted that an annual revision, and a doubt o
appe 11, as well as the abolition of certificates, were de-
sirable; and yet his Noble Friend (Lord Stanley) because
be had introduced similar provisions in his Bill of het
year, had become the object of unmeasured vituperation,
having been called a "scorpion," and a thousand ether
name:. The supporters of this Government Bill were at
variance with themselves. The Hon. Secretary at War
had said that the 51. clause was the very essence of the
Bill. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Attorney-Gene-
ral for Ireland, said that it was a mere question of amount
—that the 51. was printed in italics. That statement was
perfectly true. But were the words " that any person
who should be in the actual occupation of such property
should be entitled to be registered," were those words:printed .
in italics? Instead of being intended for the consideration
of the Committee, they were in fact made the very essence
of the Bill. The Noble Lord had stated most distinctly
that he would not have introduced the 811, however be-
neficial it might be in other respects, unless it contained
that principle. He thought that every Hon. Member of
that House who was attached to the monarchical institu•
tion of this country, as opposed to the democratic prin-
ciples which were abroad, was called upon to resist the
innovation, and to vote rgainst the second reading of this
Bill. English gentlemen were as much interested in this
measure as Irish. It was not exclusively' an Irish ques-
tion which they were then called upon to consider and to
settle. Would any one imagine that if the Bill were in-
troduced in Ireland, the principle would stop there, and
not be introduced into England? There would imme-
diately be an exclamation on the part of the English andhe
Scotch, that they were not upon the same footing 7tthie
Irish. It was extremely important in the discussion
question to look to the opinions
referringep to
in the discussion on the Reform II
Bi
stating and rejoic-
ingthat discussion, he found Lord Durhamionc-third of the voters
snsioxn oressed
in the consideration, that ayvhicli.hadobe
lowstating,
that in towns there
be found Lord Lansdowne
in this country would have so"
I householder:. He found
a qualification as
would be more 151. than
Bill as a resting place
fLeormrd the Secretary for the
it would not be again
eramees, in the straits in which they
furco LordltohneiGe
Constitution,sr,eysp,
e andaki
e gt heefs
ONt
hotehbalßel
Was it not then a monstrous thing
Propose an alteration of that settlement?
felt themsel,e'r
t°whould be made under • any circumstances,
If such a change.'
for dis-
turbedh,,
rrevolutions.tyMajesty's
es,
should be
made here? It was said that the constituencies
the necessity fur
the case
of
ns
y
Irelandi werei increased
c re a s ed considerably
since
cthe
he passing
as sng of the Reform Bill.
reduced. The returns laid
upon the table proved no such thing; they proved that the
constituencies both of the towns and counties in Ireland had
co
He bad returns from the Queen's county, and according
to them, in December 1832, there were on the register
1,494 voters, and in December, 1840, that was after 'the
dcrab I
expration of toe eight years, the constituency was 1,559;
that was, therefore, an increase of nearly 100, and such
was the actual strength of the constituency at that mo-
ment. He bad also returns from other places—from
and those the constituency, in 1832, was 1,121,
while in 15e0 it was 1,961 ; there was, therefore, an in-
crease of between 800 and 900 in that small country. In
Wicklow, in 1832, the number was 1,520, and hi 1840
1,468; that was a falling off, but that sass to be accounted
for by the landlords of Ireland being indisposed to grant
leases; but there was also an indisposition on the part of
the tenants to take them, because they did not like t)
place themselves between two fires—because, if a man
w voted aga't the priests he rendered himself obnoxious, and
if he voted against the landlord he incurred his displea-
sure. The returns before the House showed a larger con-
stituency than real
ly existed, because it included the names of
many that were dead.
was not enough to say the con-
stituency was reduced,—it must be shown that it was re-
duced in such a manner as not to give fair representation,
before they could call upon the House to reveal the Re-
form Bill, which was the effect of the present Bill. He
norerd with the observreions of the Noble Lord the Se-
cretary for Ireland, that the country could not stand suc-
cessive
revolutions. The 51 rating cosatitucecy would
be infinitely worse than the old 40s. frceholders, and
what had been the evils of the system of the 40-s. free-
holders ? Why, the landlords, for the purpose of cleat-
jog riots, had diviclo the land into the most minute por.