The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-05 00:00:00

tress was attacked at the same time. Ho had no hesi-
tation in saying that this arose from the simple dispo-
sition of the fleet. It was also astonishing how few men
had been lost on board the fleet, he believed only about
sixty. Now, how did that happen ? Why, that had been
effected by the admirable manner in which both officers
and men had acted, and the distance at which the fleet
was placed from the fortress, under the command of the
Admiral; the ships took their stations at one-third the
distance the enemy supposed, and to meet which the
enemy had laid their guns ; the result was that the
shot went over the ships, and by this means a loss of
only one-tenth of the men took place, which would not
have been the case had the ships been placed at the usual
distance. It was true the Admiral had brought to bear
upon the fortifications, a most formidable force, but still
ho thought that what had been effected was wonderful,
and reflected the highest credit upon the bravery, in-
trepidity, and science of those engaged. He had en-
tered thus fully into the matter for the purpose of
showing to the public that such things could not be
done every day. He told their Lordships again that
these were singular instances performed by great gal-
lantry under peculiar circumstances, and it was not to
be expected that such things would happen in the fu-
ture. In modern times he knew but of one instance of
success in firing upon stone walls. In conclusion, the
Noble Duke begged to assure their Lordships that he
most cordially concurred in the motion of the Noble
Lord opposite.
The Earl of HARD WICKE could not give a silent
vote on this subject. Their Lordships must feel that
after the statement of the Noble Duke it was totally
unnecessary for him to enter into any statement with
respect to the glorious achievements that had taken
place. But he could not help expressing how perfectly
he concurred in the motion of the Noble Earl opposite ;
at no period in the history of this country had any
thing been exhibited that showed in a stronger light
the intrepidity of the seamen of England, and the effi-
ciency of its fleets ; and he must, on this occasion, say
that any conception to the contrary was most mistaken
and absurd.
Lord HILL said it was impossible for him to allow
the discussion to close without stating that he heartily
concurred in the honour which was about to be con-
ferred on that branch of the service which had at all
times, whenever an opportunity was offered, distinguished
itself by skill and bravery. He begged also to state
that, he thought the conduct of his Gallant Friend
Sir Charles Smith, and the officers and engineers who
served under him, was most praiseworthy.
Earl MINTO begged to offer one remark with re-
spect to an observation that had fallen from the Noble
Duke opposite. The Noble Duke had cautioned the
Government against engaging ships of war in attacks
upon fortresses. He could assure the Noble Duke
that he was fully aware of the great disadvantage a
ship was under in some respects when placed in such
a situation ; but then, the discretion and prudence
of an officer could always be trusted to, so to govern
their gallant enterprises as not to undertake any attack
of that description without a fair prospect of success—
such a fair prospect of success as the Gallant Admiral
felt he had before him in the recent engagement. Of
late years there had been a great and remarkable im-
provement
in the gunnery of the navy. During the at-
tack on Acre the firing was such as made it almost im-
possible for mon to stand to their guns with any degree
of steadiness. That he considered to be a new power
which had been acquired by the navy in later years, and
that rendered the attack of walls and fortresses a
much less desperate undertaking than it might have
been in the days of mere random firing. They had,had an
example in which the power of battery of ships of war
was successfully exhibited against much greater power
brought against it, and under much greater disadvan-
tages ; and without all these modern improvements of
gunnery which had given so much additional power to the
navy in the attack of fortresses—he alluded to Algiers.
On the occasion of the at' ack of Algiers it was undoubted
that the success was decisive. He could not refrain from
saying so much, hoping that in some degree he had
misunderstood the Noble Duke. He trusted that the
meaning of the Noble Duke was merely to give a gene-
ral caution against ships of war attacking fortresses--
not that they should never do so, or that it was in any
way intended to complain of the proceedings under dis-
cussion.
Tee Duke of WELLINGTON said he would
require to have much more experience than he had
hefore he could say that ships of war ought not to at-
tack any fertresses. He had merely stated a fret
which had come under his own notice, as his opinion
that in general they ought not to make such attacks.
The motion was then unanimously agreed to.
The Earl of SHAFTESI3U RY brought up a further
Report from the Committee of Precedents on the Earl of
Cardigan's case, stating the manner in which the House
was to be fitted up. Seats would be provided for 640, and
it recommended the Lord Great Chamberlain should
issue only one ticket to each Peer, and that only upon
personal application.
CHURCH-R ATES.

Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition signed by
the Mayor of Leicester, on behalf of a large meeting,
held in that town, of the members of the Voluntary
Church Society, and the friends of religious liberty,
condemning, i❑ strong language, the longer existence
of Church-rates, and the confinement of Mr.W. Baines,
of that town, for that impost, which he refused to pay
on conscientious motives ; and they prayed their Lord-
ships to adopt such measures as would afford relief,
and conduce to the release of that worthy and respect-
able gentleman. He understood that Leicester con-
tained 6,000 inhabitants, and that the Church rates le-
vied were 3301., of which 130/. was paid or duo by the
Dissenters ; yet for this paltry turn the town was kept
in perpetual strife. A Magistrate informed him that
the enforcement of Church rates was the most disagree-
able duty of the Magistracy, and engendered a strong
feeling of hostility against the Established Church. It
was now three years since the Government had intro-
duced a measure to give relief, but it was withdrawn.
He trusted his Noble Friend would be able to answer
him in the affirmative, when he asked if her Majesty's
Ministers had any intention of renewing that measure ;
and if not, would they introduce any other measure
calculated to effect the same improvement ?
Lord MELBOURNE—I do not feel it in my power
to give any answer to the question at present.
Lord BROUGHAM was afraid that that was an
answer in the negative, and one which he much re-
gretted.
JUDICIAL COMMITTEE OF THE PRIVY
COUNCIL.

Lord BROUGHAM said, he thought a misunder-
standing had gone abroad respecting the course of
proceedings in a very important judicature in this coun-
try—the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council.
He thought it right, in consequence of something
which passed in another place, that their Lordships
should have an opportunity of seeing whether there
had been any neglect of duty on the part of the Learned
Judges who constituted that Court. It had been said
that they had not sufficiently complied with the Act
of Parliament in holding the sittings which ought to be
held in the exercise of their jurisdiction. No personal
complaint whatever had been made against these Learned
Judges. It was only said that by the constitution of
the Court their meetings were accidental, that it de-
pended upon the chance of the case whether meetings
were held or not, and that parties were brought down
again and again, and much needless expense was in-
curred. One would naturally suppose from such state-
ments, that such delays happened very frequently.
Upon inquiry, he found that there were only two, or
at the utmost three, instances during the last three
years. The true way of ascertaining the truth was to
move for a return of the days of sitting. It had been
said that the Court had only sat eighteen days
during the year 1840.—( Hear, hear.) The
truth was, that it had only sat eighteen days
during that portion of the year 1840, which elapsed
previous to the close of last Session, that is to say, the
month of August. But there were five or six months
of the year 1840, after that return was made, and when
they came to look at the whole attendance, instead of
eighteen it amounted to thirty days. The Learned
Judges were called upon by the Act to make arrange-
ments so as to enable the Judicial Privy Council to sit
as often as the state of business required. They should
ascertain how often, in point of fact, the Judicial Privy
Council had held its sittings. He would commence
with the year 1834, aud take every year down to 1840
inclusive. He would also take in the number of ap-
peals which had been heard during that time, and the
number which were now received to be heard. If these
returns, when brought before their Lordships, should
show that there ought to have been a greater numbei•
of sittings in respect to the amount of business, and
that there had been a greater number of causes set
down than ought, in the ordinary course of business, to
have stood for hearing without being so despatched, no
doubt it would be the duty of the Learned Judges
to attend more closely to the provisions of the Act than
they had done. If; on the other 11.nd, it should appear
that they had sat, one year with another, as often as was
irne qt rte
cd ,naniirdt atha tn t hoexri es t
ewda s
inno
amnoyr more
irireera
Cr
oo of r
tCourt,
übusinesseh
more, if it could be found there was a less arrear, then
ha trusted the observations made would not be repeated.
The Noble Lord then moved for an account of the num-
ber of days that the Privy Council had sat during the
seven years ending 1840, and of causes and appeals.—
The returns were ordered to be made.
The House then Adjourned.

ROUSE OF COMMONS, FF.IL 4.
The SPEANER took the Chair at afew minutes before
Four o'Clock.
Mr. GLADSTONE was introduced by his brother the
Hon. Member for Newark and by Sir Robert Bate-
son, and took the oaths and his scat for the borough of
_ .

Mr. M. PHILLIPS presented a petition from the
Manchester Dispensary, praying to be mado a body
corporate.

RAILWAY BILLS.
Mr. H. HINDE moved that the Standing Order,
Number 32, relating to Railways', be read.
The Order having been read, the Hos. MEMBER

proposed that the Standing Order respecting railway
Bills, which requires that a sum equal to one-tenth
part of the amount subscribed to be deposited in the
Court of Exchequer, be modified by substituting one-
twentieth for one-tenth. The Hon: Member proceeded
to say that he would not detain the House by enter-
ing into arguments at any length in support of his mo-
tion ; but he would merely mention a few facts bearing
upon the subject. The House was aware that, pre-
vious to the year 1830, of the Bills that were passed for
making railways a considerable number was confined
chiefly to the purposes of local capital ; but after the
opening of the great railway between Liverpool and
Manchester a great impetus was given to speculations
of that nature, and in the following years several Bills
were introduced into the House to enable capitalists to
open railways. In the year 1832 four Bills were
passed for that purpose, and in the year 1834
five Bills were passed for a similar purpose.
In the year 1835, 24 Railway Bills had passed through
that House, including the great lines from London to
Birmingham, the Grand Junction, the North
Union, and the London and Southampton.
In 1836, the number of applications was very
large, and the attention of Parliament was
particularly directed to the subject in consequence
of the Standing Orders having been evaded, and, in
fact, there was strong proof before the House that eva-
sions had been practised to enable parties to pass the
Standing Orders. Notwithstanding that, twenty-nine
orders for the formation of railways had passed the
House. In 1837 the number of Railway Acts was
fifteen. He admitted that many of the schemes in these
three years, particularly in that of 1836, were not worthy
of the support of Parliament, and were not brought under
the consideration of the House in such a way as would
enable them to be proceeded with. Out of the large num-
ber brought forward 44 did pass the House of Commons,
and although there was no particular protection, there
was not a single one of them could be called a bubble
Company, and in proof of it he could state, that of the
forty-four twenty-one were at the present period
actually finished, ten were partially opened,
nine were in progress, and four not commenced.
Two of these four were Irish railways, and of the pe-
culiar circumstances connected with railways in that
country it was unnecessary for him to say any thing
Of the other two, the Deptford pier and railway had
never been commenced, and the other, the Thames
Haven railway, could not be commenced in consequence
of the delay in advancing the Eastern Counties Railway.
In August 1836 a Standing Order passed the House,
requiring that a longer notice should be given than
heretofore, and in July of the following year the standing
order was passed, requiring a deposit of 10 per cent.
and both these came into operation in 1888. After
the passing of these two Standing Orders there was a
remarkable decrease in the number of Bills presented to
that House. In 1838 only two Acts of Parliament
for new railways were passed, in 1839 only one, and in
1840 not a single Act for a new line passed the House.
Surely that looked like putting a stop to them al-
together, and it would appear, that in taking steps to
prevent fraudulent schemes, they had prevented the
carrying on of wholesome plans. Among the
Bills passed within the last three years the
Edinburgh and Glasgow one had been before
Parliament the previous year, and therefore
the Standing Orders did not apply to it, and another,
the West Derby, had beer, in progress of formation by
another Company, and that also was exempted. 'foe
only Bill, therefore, which could be termed one for a to-
tally new line was one for a short line in Devonshire,
near Torbay, which was not quite three miles in length,
so that, i❑ point of fact, only one Bill had passed since
the Standing Order to which his motion referred. He
did not mean to object to the March notices, although
he had, in common with many others, objections to
these notices, but he referred particularly to the
order which required the deposit of 10 per cent.
He did not believe that the Standing Orders relative
to the March notices had had the effect of preventing
these being given, because, in point of fact, in 1838
there had been 35 such notices given, in 1839, 29, and
in 1840, 30, sliming that these notice; had not bee❑
much decreased. It might be urged, and not without
reason, that the state of the money market had been
one of the great causes of the small number of Railway
Bills brought forward, and no doubt that had operated
to a certain extent ; but he would remind Hon. Mem-
bers that although British capital had not been invested
to a large amount in railways at home, yet large sums
had been invested by British capitalists in railways
in Germany and France, and particularly that one be-
tween Havre and Paris in the latter country, besides many
speculations in the United States. Having disposed
of the reasons why so small a number of railway bills
had been brought before the House within the last three
years, it only remained for him now to meet the objections
of Hon. Members, who thought it of little importance
whether railways should continua to progress or not, and to
these he would use the strong argument that British
capital was being absorbed in these undertakings in fo-
reign countries. Some time ago it might have been a
question whether every large town should have a con-
nection by railway with the metropolis ; but from what
had occurred of late years, that was a point on which
there could be now little doubt. He would take
an instance with which he was familiar, namely, the
Great North Road. It was true there was a railway
from London to York, but instead of being a benefit to
the large towns in a direct line it was the reverse,because
in many instances it deviated 30 miles frera that direct line.
A great number of persons were employed upon these
railways, but this employment, so far from being a boon
to the labouring population, would be a curse if it were
to be suddenly withdrawn. Look at the operation of
railways at this moment. During the last year, from
February 1840 to February 1841, about 600 miles of
new railway had been opened in the kingdom. On
these 600 miles far more than a moiety of the labourers
throughout the kingdom had been employed. It might
be asked if he had the means of showing the number
now out of employment, and he confessed that he had
not. The works, especially the embankments, had been
subject to so much dilapidation from the state of the
weather, and from the railways having been opened
with undue speed, that on many lines the same
number of labourers were employed 'in repairing
them, as had been employed during their for-
mation. But as spring advanced, these would be
thrown out of employment, for though there were many
railways going on, with the exception of the Great
Western and another, he knew of none that were going
on with spirit. These were the chief causes he had to
advance in favour of a modification of the Standing Or-
der ; but he would point out another inconvenience,
namely, the formation of railways without the sanction
of Parliament. If persons found generally they could
more easily make a bargain with the landowners
than by submitting to the restrictions laid upon
them by Parliament, depend upon it this system
would increase, as saving the expense of an appli-
cation to Parliament would enable them to give greater
sums to the landowners. These railways were not sub-
ject to the Act of last session for the regula-
tion of railways, which related only to those formed
under the sanction of Parliament. He would only
further state, that if the House agreed to the
proposition he had had the honour to make,
they would only place the Standing Order in
that House on the same footing as that of the House
of Lords. When these new Standing Orders relating
to railways were passed, a communication was made
to the other House, under the auspices of theNobleLord
then at the head of the Board of Trade, to assimilate the
Standing Orders of the two Houses, and he believed
there was no other difference between the Houses than
that the House of Commons proposed a deposit of 10
per cent., and the House of Lords thought this too
much, and would assent only to a deposit of 5 per
cent. He thanked the House for the attention they
had paid to his statement, and submitted his motion
for their decision.
Mr .JERVIS seconded the motion.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said, that although he was
certainly prepared to offer every opposition in his power
to the motion made by the Hon. Gentleman—( Hear,
hear)—the Hon. Gentleman was quite '_right in assum-
ing that he did not rest opposition e n any wish to
discourage the progress of railways in this coun-
try—(Cheers)— provided they were real and bona
fide undertakings.—(Cheers.) He was as much con-
vinced as any man could be that it was his duty to give
every encouragement to the development of the railway
system, but he was well convinced that the only way by
which they could guard against a practical monopoly
on the part of the lines already existing would be by
lines more or less parallel, and constructed in such a man

ner as to offer some competition for the benefit of the pub-
lic. He trusted therefore the Hon. Gentlema❑ would be
satisfied that if he (Mr. Labouchere) felt it his duty to
oppose the motion, he did not do so from any desire to
interfere with the progress of the railway system. But
really was at a loss to conceive how it could be
believed that any railway undertaking could be car-
ried on, so as to afford a fair and reasonable prospect
of remuneration to the subscribers if there were a
difficulty in obtaining a deposit of ten per cent.--
(Cheers.) It appeared to him that if there were a
difficulty in obtaining a .deposit of five per cent, as a
subscriber, he should think he had little chance of ob-
tainino. the remaining 95 per cent. This subject
had often been before the House. The principle
had been considered by two Committees of the
House of Commons, who iiad decided against it,
in consequence of those disgraceful gambling trans-
actions which, under the name of irailway specu-
lations, had imposed upon the country.—(Hear, hear.)
It would, indeed, be with great concern be should see
Ihe House relax their rule, which had had the most
satisfactory effect in arresting the progress of schemes
which were set up for no bona fide object, but only to in-
duce inexperienced capitalists to purchase shares and give
the advantage of temporary rises in price to. the first
spculators. The House of Lords had ad opted
different principle, and the consequence was that Bills
were introduced in that House which subsequently
became abandoned, after much loss and inc‘onveni-

coca to parties who were misled by the projectors.
To him it appeared impossible that any parties
of character and substance could find any difficulty in