The Sun.
London, England, 1812-06-23 00:00:00

inAti in c th eabittlec ft itact titen truly'
said by an Honourable and Learned Gentleman,
oh a foriner'hight, that the Catholic Question
.could• riot succeed unless it was
.made a Cabinet
question. if, said 11-4, "'it be not made a Cabinet
,measnrea it never will be a Legislative mega
surea" in that opinion he perfectly concurred ;
he did-not: think the question could be brought
forward in 'any other way, lie confessed that
after what had recently passed in Ireland, he felt
some difficulty at first in coming forward to sup-
port the motion this night ; but, upon considera-
tion, it appeared to him, that the very nature of
these proceedings skewed that no more time ought
tote lost in serionsly taking op the question.'
When the House saw the gross perversion of the-,
facts, the astonishing blindness that' marked
every part of the proCeedings , to which he
was referring, it would be "convinced that 'un--
less Parliament proceeded to the serious con-
sideration of the subject, the most mischievous
consequences Must' ensne. He was convinced
that it was the opinion of all the reflecting people
in both countries, that it was the duty of the
Government (let who will constitute i 9 to apply
theniselves -with every possible energy, to this Sub-
ject; to collect all the information in their power,
to take a dispassionate • review of all the .laws
which ha.dbeca passed against the Catholics, and.
to state distinctly to Parliament which of them
ought to be repealed. 'lf the -Government would
adOA that course cif proceeding with 'a firm de-
termination to conciliate the' Catholics, as far as
was consistent with the safety of our Establish-
ments—if, while they endeavoured to satisfy the
Catholics, the Protestants were convinced that
due attention was paid to their interests, and to the
preservation of those guards and securities which'
our ancestors had established, he was sure that
this .important question might'be settled to the
general satisfaction of all panties. Convinced, as
he was, that this measure to be effectuallybrought
forward, must be brought fOrward as a- Cabinet
measure, he was the more disposed to agree with
the motion of his Right lion. Friend, beeauSe, if
the'resolution proposed should be agreed to by
both Houses, and be laid before the Regent, it
must of course be taken up seriously by Govern-
ment. He was anxious to take the earliest oppor-
tunity of saying these few words to state his rea-
sons for the vote which he should give. He
would notoccUpy any more of the time. of the
House, except merely to repeat what he had said
upon a former occasion, that in his opinion a per-
son holding the situation he did, should not dis-
cuss questioos.of this kind. It was the duty of
a person in such a 'situation to carry on the Go-
:vernment of the Country to enforce an implicit
obedience to the laws, and to administer them
im-
partially, but not to attempt to alter the Constitu-
tion. He would not now have taken a part in
this discussion if he did not consider himself as
in effect withdrawn.from the, situation-which, he
lately held; he merely continued in itfor, the pur-
pose of transacting the business that was in progress
through the House. He had, therefore, now no
duty to perform which should prevent him from de-
livering his opinion upon this question. He shOuld,
however, at all times be ready to defend the prin-
Ciples upon which he acted during the time he'
had the honour of having *a. share in the Govern-
ment of Ireland, and also to justify, if. it should
be necessary, every measure of the Duke of Rich-
Mond's GoVernMent, since that Noble Person had
been Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. The' senti-
ments which he had now' delivered, as 'he no
longer considered himself as an official man, could
not in any way whatever commit that Noble
Duke: He concluded by declaring that he should
Tote for the motions
Mr. RYDER would have been more induced to
have concurred in the motion, had not the .former
discussions pn the subject "shewn the almost nulia
mited nature of the Catholic demands. No one
,could disguise from himself that no Concession
would. lead. to conciliation, unless' tfiere was
conferred on the Catholic a legislative right to
an equal share of- political , power with his
Protestant 'fellow-subject.' 'He was at a.' lOss
to discover how this 'could be done Con-
sistently with " the stability of the Protestant
establishment, and the general concord and satis-
• faction of all classes of his Majesty's subject.,"
*had no such hope. He therefore would not
hold out any such hope. - The tune might come
'when the Catholics had 'emancipated -theinselVes
from foreign Spiritual bondS, that the claims might
be conceded' tO them with safety. Bid as long as
the Pope maintained his direct and unbiassed in-
fluenCe over the Catholic Bishops, .and theßishopa
over the Priesthotid, and the Priesthood over the
Laity, he was convinced that concession could
not be made without danger to the Protestant es-
tablishmentof Ireland, and even to' that of the
whole Empire. The Right Hon. Gentleman's re-
solution would tend not to harMonize, but to add
materials to religious animosity. He for one
.should therefore oppose it.
Ikra.X, FITZGERALD was willing to accede 'to
the Amendment of the gallant General, or if the
Howe thought -that too much, to the original mo-
• flan. He trusted that there was a general ac-
quiescence in the principle of concession. But
adverting to some of the arguments urged by. the
_Right Hon. Gentleman who had just spoken, he
denied the great influence attributed to the Pope
over the Priesthood, 'and to the Priesthood over
the People. In any securities which might be
deemed necessary, he deprecated too officious an
interference by an hostile religionawith the most
ancient religion- of Earope. 'He deprecated the
further postponement as dangerous, and even
threatening separation, and wished that 'the
concessions might proceed from an amicable
Ministry; 'instead of coming from what must
be considered. by - the Catholics -a . suspici-
ous quarter. With • respect to the Resolu-
tions of the aggregate meeting of the Catho-
lics, as far they related' to: the late prosecu-
tions; and to the 'obstacles thrown in the way of
the right of petitioning, he went the full
_length
of their expressions. He agreed also, that they'
were right. -in proffering. no securities ; the ldw
,was the security to he looked to. s The Catholics
demanded politiCal freedom, -and they demanded
it in a manly tone, oe they would not deserve it.
He rejoieth in this frank communication. He
maintained, that though the Catholics were, con-
nected with the Pope,' he had uo influence in

t2Kiti6tat ontettis,.Mia that tbt noulinatl6n of,
aii their Bishops in Ireland was an internal no

MI . FULLER snida that no man he hoped would,
suspect him of a hOstile feeling toward's any re-'
ligion hi which any man thought that he served
Go' better titan be did him Self; but there might
he reasons for keeping down the tenets of one
religion, when they wanted More thaii• all the
other 'dissenting sects. The title
.deeds of his
etc were the same-as the title; deeds of the Con-i
stiti&on—and he was sure no generous Irishman
would ask him. to'giVe Up his title deeds, without
proper securities against their abuse. He was
glad thut the question was put off. No man tould
admire the Irish more than he did : they were a
manly, fine, generous race; the agreed perfectly
in his sentiments, for they loved "women and wine
as much' as he did.—(Lnud'burits of laughter)—•
Their religious tenets, however, prevented them
from a greater share of freedom ; some of those
tenets credibility could- hardly: swallow,- an& he
thdught he was right in asking them; as they be-.
lieved so much already, that they. would not be-
lieve much more. "He was glad the proposition
was to be put olf, as he hoped they Would be able
to find intermediate means. Every man Who
wished Well to the British empire, must be anxioas
to see its religious feelings and political strength
united ; and if that could, be done, and this ques-
tion of Cativilic Emancipation carried with per-
feet security to Church and State, no man would
be happier to grant it tkan he would.
Sir J. gewrori declared he could not see the
necessity of calling tor securities. 'What was ne-
cessary to the protection of Church and State was
in the hands of Parliament, and Was equally bind-
ing upon all Members of the commuoity.
way to have securities was to take away' the fire--
sent restrictions. When they repealed the' test
laws against the Dissenters in 1784, the) asked
fur no securities, and he would ask had they found
that the church establishment was weakened by
such. concessions He rejoiced in the feeling ma-
nifested by the House towards 'the infamous pub:. '
lication qubted by the Right Hon. MOver, and
was of opinion, that 'a' more fatal inevainre could
not be,adopted than the cry of No Popeey."
They might depend that in time it would be -an--
swered
by a cry in lrelainl, of " NO Union," by
a cry of,,`! Separation." ‘•
Mr. Via RRNATT thought_ that nothing would
tend more to preyent the zealous --Cooperation
and Confidence of the Spaniard's, than the pre-
text which we afforded to the enemy to represent
us as persecutors "Of the. Catholics
After having conceded when the best interests of
the country called opon them to make -a stand, be
hoped they would not think of Making a stand in
a point which the best interests of the country
called upon them to abandon.
Mr. MaiRTiN. said-, he should 'have approved
more -of a resolution, -pledging the House to the
consideration of the question, with a view to
granting the prayer of the petition. He should
vote for going into the consideration of the ques-
tion as 'soon as possible. •
- ,
Mr. MATTHEW MONTAGUE regretted the absence
of that powerful voice which- was accustomed to
address them with such force and elOquence on
this subject. His reason for t 'it agreeing in the;
of the Right .nirahle Gentleman
on the floor, was a conviction that the measure he
, would propose would not answer the purposes of
conciliation. The Catholics had now declared,
than nothing but unconditional emancipatkn
would content them. He would ask the House,
whether,after granting this measure, they must not
proceed to equalise all rights—Whether they must
not repeal the Test Acts must appear, fiial'
the,eheeriog of,. the Gentleien theinselYes that
. they; were about to' pass it Upon tire' broad basis of
right,
,fre did not _only deplore the: loss of the
talents ahis late Right HonourableFriend, but
the yigo'rOUsSPiKf. and determination which mark-
ed his dia tl-4(4o'i' and regretted there had .been
•
string
of .COACCSSIOTIS from the present Ministers.
, He believed;''that concession in the present'case
would lead to a demand for equalization of property,
;md that the sane :coarse as Was adopted. in
-France, iyoUla,follow here, -if the principle of in-
novation was once admitted: He -;should vote
acrainst the motion.

-Mr. DARNEL stated, that there were but three
points in which the Pope exercised any power. in
Ireland : that of marriage, that of appeals in cases
of dispute between-the Catholic Clergy, and that
of appointing Bishops, all of which had fallen
greatly into dis'use. If any evil arose frOm the
unconditional grant, Parliament might take the
measures which were necessary, and be was sure
that' if Catholics were admitted into ParliaMent,
those who were likely to be returned would be the
first to join in such measures.
Mr. WILBRAIIAra BOOTLE declared his intention
to vote for the Motion of his Riglit Hon. Friend,
but would not pledge himself to any
,further step.
He hoped that something would be done to re-
lieve that estimable class of men the trio,lish Ca-
tholids.

Sir JOHN NICHOLL said, he should Join the
Rit,;ht Hon. Gentleman on the ildor (Mr. Secre-
tary Ryder) in giving his sincere: and decided
opinion on this subject. He would allow, that.
if political power could be granted to the Catho-
lics, with safety to the Constitution,. it ought to
be granted ; but the safety of that Constitution
was 'of paramount importance, and the Muse
could , not with propriety advance a single
step without insuring that safety. In what
manner, he would ask, could the Resolu-
,
tion be necessary ? Could not an individual
compel the House
,at any time to consider
the questiOn. After, debating it year after year,
was it, now necessary to pledge theuiselves to its
consideration? The Resolution could la. filpt be
only necessary with this view, to delude the House
with a pledge to ulterior' meaSures. In all the
discussions which had already taken place, it t -
ver was disclosed what the securities should be
that would acCompany the concessions. Those Gen-
tlemen who said that we ought to concede with-
out limitation, 'spoke a plain language, but a lan-
guage that might lead to a Catholic establishment
in Ireland, and even to a Catholic Monarch on
the throne, wrapping up the matter in such mystery,
rendered him suspicious until they were disclosed.
The Right 'Hon. Gentleman himself did not seem
to -think they wore likely to be satisfactory,; they

would Operate-its aasurprise to both parties. Af-
ter the last resolutions of the Catholics, it was impos-
sible to expect that this would lead to concili:;tivn.
If this was no longer to be a Government ques-'
tion, the more was it for individuals to exercise •
care ahtd. caution. Was•it fair towards the CA:11o.
lies themselves to excite hopes in them which.
must be disappointed ? If they would satisfy Par-
liament that concessions could be made with Safe-
it was calumny to the House to say that they
were unwilling to extend it. He felt it his duty
to negative the motion.
The Cr of the EXCHEQUER declared
his 'intention to vote for the resolution of the ,
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Canning) in the-
same. sense in which his Hon. Friend had done,
without pledging himself to any future measure.
Something, •he hoped, knight be done,
.but What
it would be he could not now say. As to the
charge of vatillation against the Government, he
knew of -no: other. measures that were given up
than the resolution reSpecting the barracks, the
allowance to the Private Secretary of his ltoyal
Highness the Prince Regent; and the important ,
question of the Orders in Council. On this sub-
ject of the Orders in. Council, it should he recollect-
ed that the late lamented Chancellor of the t'ache-
quer had made large concessions. - There was no
other ground of charge against thepresent Govern-
mant, than they had shewn a dispoSition to act
up to their own judgmein. On the question he- -
fore. them he should say, that though he sup-
ported the Resolution, he did not do so upon the
grounds or arguments adnaoced by the ITtotht
Honourable Gentleman.' The Right Honotiroble
Gehtleman seemed to think there was no middle
course e at present there was not; but. time was
the great innovator ; it prodheed changes every
day, and was leading the Catholics towards the
full aceomplishment of their wishes; which no-
thing could impede so much as any violence on their
part. Before any chanse of statem could be success-
fully Attempted, they ought to observe the cheinges
which had taken place in the Catholic Church it-
self, and the destruction that hadtspread as well
over the ecclesiastical as the political state of
Europe. All they knew of the Pope was, he was
the. first Bishop of the French Empire, and there
could be little doubt that the successor of the
Pope wosild be the mere nominee of Bonaparte.
There were- internal changes• in the body of .trio
CathOlies of ireland, which led to hopes Of a fa-
v6thrable .issue : they were daily advancing in
knOwledge and inquiry, and in proportion as they
adopted' the Bible for their role of conduct, di
the prospect of conciliation appear.
Mr.7.l3aNies dwelt at some length on the change .
which had lately taken place in the opiniona_of
both Houses of Parliament on the subject. He
• should go into the Consideration of it, he hoped,
without prajodice. ' pie should insist upon ample
securities, seenrities,as full as any that were vested
in any other Crowiro the most ample that
'history could furnish, were ;those. which he ex-
pected; and would exact. He always thought,
and he-thooght, still,' that the unfortunate mea-
s Ore of the Union threw a great bar in` the
way of farther concessions fo the Catholics. lie
hoped, hOwever, that the difficulties thence arising
would not prove insuperable. One of the chief
obstacles to the Measure proposed was (unfortu-
nately) removed; and in another Sesions, know-
ing-the sentiments of their constituents on the sub-: ,
ject, it might be hoped they would be able to (mote
to. smile satisfactory and practical conclusions If
If
his night Hon. Friend; or any. other Hon. Mem-
ber could brihg forward a plant: embracing the
three objects S: hick he had stated himself to have
in View, it would meet with his (Mt. B.'s) support.
Mr*. GaATTAN observed, that the Changes e.hAa
took place in human affairs were such, that that
which was impossible at one tLine, was not only
possible, but necessary,aloanoer. if toe opi-
nions of those Who formed the Governmeot were
changed, he could easily conceive that such chanoe
might be justified by circumstances, •and :he would
not call the present a victory gained over than;
to hinit it appeared,, that they had gained a vie-
tory over themselves. He objected tot he Anienda
meet, as, after what had occurred in the course
of the Session, it could not be expected that the
House would be disposed to go into a •Corninittee
on the subject at present. This Was a motion of
concord, to conciliate the Catholics without pitt.,,
Ling the ProtestantChOreh in danger, and passing
the resolution underacousideraton, they voted the
English and Irish to be one people,. and as such it
ought tOtbe considered by the people of both,
:countries. The question came forward now un-
der'Circhmstances differing considerably froth those
under which it Was 'brought forward before. The
discussions which had taken place on the subject,
the situation of'the Executive, the great number
'which had appeared in its. favour on the last dis-
cushion, though it-was still a minority, was such
as to evince.a dispositioh on the part of England,
to shake hatids with Irelmid. He' room-mended
mutual conciliation on the part of Gisvernment
and o'n the part. of Catholics, in exacting' se-
curities; °tithe one hand; and inseekingeonces-
siona on the other. He had it in contemplation,
in the neat Sessions of Parliament, to bring in a.
Bill *on the subject, or to move -for a ComMittee,
but he was convinced that the measure vehold be..
mucal? better, in the ands of Govermirent. If they-
, would bring it forward, he would be happy to be
able to second the measure they might propose, .
and willing to approve. ' •
Lord CASTLFREAGH complimented the fa.st
Speaker oil his taleirls and exertittns, and still
more on the tone of that speech which they had
joit:heard. It was for_ them that night to dis-
charge their -duty,. by stating the grounds upon
which they voted, that they might hereafter come -
to-the diS'eutsion of the subject With as little miss.
undetstandiog on any part of it as possible: For
himself he had to, say, that if he were not that
night to concurin the motion of the Right Haus
Gentleman, his conduct would work an. abandon- -
ment of thane principles which he had altrays
avowed,'cad which had unit-bra* regulated his
conduct. Feeling as he always had, thenecessity
of endeavouring to admit the Catholics into:the
'Constitution, when the difficulties which bad op-
posed" that' niesso..e were lessened or • rennived,
when the temper of the CatholieS, and the cirs
chmstances of the times Would, 'in hia opinion,
justify is being attempted to be done, if no one.
elsehad‘ taken u the subject; he hiniself would