The Sun.
London, England, 1823-07-11 00:00:00

i+~is'stb~:

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved the third reading
of the Scottish Ls* Commission_

Mr. lIROUGIiAM expressed his warm approbation of the
measure, but remarked great care ought to be taken to select
proper Commissioners. lle could wish its operations extended
to this country, anti especially approVed of the nomination of
Commissioners to report on abusers or defects which might be
discovered in the proceedings of Courts of Justice. lie won-
tiered it had not struck Lord Eldon, that inquiry, like charity,
ought to begin at home.' That Noble Lord very well under-
stood the importance of the recommendation that " charity,
should begin at home"—.(l laugh)—and be wished it had ocd
curred to him that inquiry could begin no where better than in
his own Court. Christianity enjoined us to take the beans from
our own-eye before we touched the mote in the eye of another.
But those were so much averse to touching the beam who. were
looking after the mote, that they oVerlooked abuses infinitely
greater than those which they now arrived at collecting. in
consequence of this feeling, their Lordships had not sought for
information where they were sure of finding it respecting
abuses in the Court of Chancery. lily lion. and Learned
Friend (Mr. iVethcrell). who knew as much of those -abuses
as any man, had not been examined.—(A 141.4;10—Ono of.the
compiaints against the Scotch Courts was, that much time was
lost by their. mode of proceeding. Now he really thought it
would not be very difficult to prove that more timc_was tant
lost in tine Scotch Court( than was consumed by proceeding* lb
the Court of Chanoery. He wished his lion. an ti Irnett
I.7riend had beekotainined touching this for aeon man knew
more of the saliva thanhe did, so none could;give better in.

. .
formation as to the means of terrectingethe evil; and if called
upon to do so, he would have brought to this, as he did to ever}
inquiry, a fresh unshackled opinion, letting loisfige.h6 whol,-.,
powerful mind without , regard tti perscin; andAttithout re-!
garding whom it might please or offend. He cotsld also
have Wished his Honourable Friend the Atteieney.Chnicral,
to have been examined; and he, though his experience: was
shorter than that of his other Learned Friend, **Old have
been able to throw much light on the subject. His Learned.
Friend next, to him (Mr. Abercromhy) had uot been ex-
amined, nor any of those learned and
,viittlOnsi Petsona ;els>
formed the Scotch Bar, all of Whom would have furnished, iie.:
portant evidence. The report which hatl been made aimed at
making it manifest that It was ititpossible for any individtial
holding the Great Seal to be at the saute tune Speaker of the.
i 1 ouse of Lords, and hear Scotch Appeals. No Man had thoOglit
more highly of Lord. Eldon than his late latnented Friend Sir
S. !timidly, but ho regretted. that political and other cir-
cumstances precluded, hint front giving g the full benefit of Ilia
Cneat, talents and unexampled knowledge of, the law as Lord
hancellor. lie (Mr. I.lroughatn) spoke.with all respect fat
the exalted talent and incorruptible integrity of the Noble
Lord; and was quite sure that in hii character of 'Judge. he
was incapable of doing any thing that could cast a spot on the
robe Which. he wore. His distribution of the patronage of hie
office snit quite another thing. With respect to that, he feared
the politician Often interfered with the Judge. No man., Iles.:
haps, who had , filled the situation of Chancellor had ever
carried the Palitician So far loe the Judge 4. he had 1104 e is
the diStribation of his judicial and legel Pittranalfe• T•ftisitt':
Stated not of hiniself, but it was the general feeling in !l'es't:
minstet.hall. But. though it was isemplaitiM' that the duties'
attached to the situation of Lord Chancellor were more than
any individual could fulfil, Lord Edon had lately added a new
office to all his others,-he meant that of Prime Minister....-(k
laugh.) :It Was idle for people to talk :about Lord Liverpool
being Prime Minister: , NVily; Lord Liverpool was ,no snore
Prime Minister than be (Mr. Ilibughaui) trim-4A langh.)---
Ile, (Mreßrongliton) now considered that he had the honour to"
act with the Earl of Liverpool.--(A :laugh.)-.-The Noble Earl
had in fact .becoriie one of the Opposition, and he should 'now,
as. was usual in such cities speak of him as " it Noble Earl' in
'another place With %Until have the henotir to act."..-.(Con.:
'tinned laughter.)—That Noble Earl had no longer any direct
inflitencer.-it was the laird Chancellor alone who was the
Minister, and he could carry what measures lie
.pleased.—
When he said •the Earl of Livetpool possessed no direct influ.
ence, he did not mean to deny that he had Sometimes carried a
measure against the will of. the Miniiter, but this was DO more
than, Lord titenillle himself and other Members of the (1 pro.
:Aden had done, The Earl of Liverpool hod beaten the Lord
Chancellor on the Martiage Act, and he (Mr. Broil Liam) had
beaten Lord Eldon on the Education Pill. When the Qeeen's
ltill was in progress, Lord Liverpool defeated the Lord Chan:
cellar on ono climie, and he (Mr. „lironglou) might claiin the
honour of.liaving had a slier- in defeating Lord Inion on the
whole NIL ' Ile felt, thertrfo'ree that he was quite justified ia
styling the Earl of Liverpool " tali Noble Friend with whom
he had the honour to act," and he hoped the present was only
the beginning of a king course of co.Operation.—(A laugh.)-;
During the long period through which lie had sat tin that side
of the !Toma, he lout nertr gained a recruit who afibrded hini •
mote satisfaction— (a laugh).—and he Was not without somue
other hopes that they might, 1 uniting their efihrts, even:
M
elly succeed in turning out the Piime Minister. lie pro.
seeded to censure the side. wind—the ra4arte proceeding,
by which a measure, pledging the House of, Lords to a me.;
menteus change, had been get tip and agreed to elsewhere.—
The. measure of which he spoke was not a Bill. The Lora;
fearing the House of CoMinans would have something to say.'
to it, I-tad not given it that shape ; but a report had been pro.;
duced and agreed in, without the slightest notice being taken
of thellotise of CoMmons. Vas this such treatment as that
Rotate had a right to expect. He said nothing of strict tighL.
Many thing* were legal, which notwithstanding were uncon-
stitutional and itupt,per. It was legal for the King to do a
number of things, which if done would subject the Aliniaters
who eivitied them to an impeachment. 'Nothing was more
common than for addresses to be carried up to the Thrime on
the subject of various grievance*. What if to one of these
the Sovereign should reply, " You do not know Whit is for
your own good. You poor C'ommons, as you used to style
yourselves .in the time of- my ancestor Queen Elizabeth, must
Din meddle with elfoirs of State. You are the mere tools of a
-i discontented pispulaee. Get away about your bovine-is, and
never let me see your fairs again ?" Such a reply though
legal, would riot fail to trrodutst a new address, calling for the
name of the .Minister who adviied it, and this refused, another
address fountipl on that refiteal would follow, till at length an
impeachment woad inevitably be resolved upon. Though
the course pursued by the Lords Might be legal, the plain old
true eonititutional mode of index* Might
ed to have been pre4
retied. Had a Bill been *at cloths tri that House, it would
have been received with that respect With which they were ac.
customed to receive every thing (ruin the Lards; a respect
which would never .be Infringed upon unless on the part
of their Lordship's a want of that reciprocal respect hilted('
appear which the House of Commons had a right to expect.
Ile had known the time When that floilse would have been
thrown into an uproar by a proceeding like that which had now
taken place in the other, and when a ilkinatnittee would have
been promptly appointed to search the Journals for precedents,
and so forth. lied net the Members of that House constituents !
For what purpose did those conitittients send them to Parlia-
ment, but to labour for their benefit to repress abut* P. .Were
not the abuses in Chancery then to be incurred into P "Nes," . •
said the Lord Chancellor, " but only in the House of Lorthe"
Yet the Commons of England were annually summoned to Par. .
Bement by the King, acting on, the advice of this same Lord '
Chancellor' to consider of ‘ divers weight)? affairs;" but he •-
defied the Lord Chancellor to 14 that any of them were half ;
so weighty for them to consider as those connected with his
own departinent. The measure to which he alluded he consi.
tiered to have been carried by chicanery, by a quibble on or.
der, by, a carrying of rights to excess. All the represtnta.
tions in the Report were founded On the supposition titt.t the
business of Chancery was ito inbretnied that no one man was
equal to the duties of the Lord High Chancellor. The business
of the Conn must have indeed greatly increased within the last
ten years, to have made two such changes necessary as the
one which had been effected, and the one now propoeetl.----.
Ten yearit ago the Lord Chance/for had sent dOwn s Rill
to that House, but its reception wits such that he had now
determined to do the job in another way. Ten years ago he
bail procrired the appointment of a journeyman Chancellor,
and now, int 1t123, it appeared he wits so worked in the House
of Lords that he required the eisistance of A jourileyman
Speaker. The coneequence of thus divesting the office of
' Lord Chancellor of the duties heretofore connected with it, •
would be to enable the Monarch to confer m situation of "Owe. .
e.year on a favourite who had not those riosiliticetions which
were lieretotbre inditipeasible to him who was so promottd.
As to the case of Lord Shaftesbury, whom King Charles had
pat in' office because he will the Minister of his pleasures, for . .
aping the gait and ridiculing the manners of Lord Clarendon,
• some individual might be appointed who had no just claim to
such distinction. The King might name a Lord Chancellor
who kneW no more of law than the man in the moon. But
this phrase might not convey his true Meaning; as it was not
certain how much law the man in the moon might have. Ile . '
reminded the house of the fears which Sir Samuel Romilly
had expressed when the Vice. Chancellor's Rill had passed,
and contended that these were ‘now proved to have been well
founded, lie had .contended that if that measure passed, it
might become the custom to give the office of Lord Chancellor
to an individual who was not a great lawyer._ 1 Aye,' was the
answer then given, ' but yon will always be sure of a great ,
lawyer in the House of Lords.' Now, hoWeVer, it was pro-
posed to appoint a Deputy Speaker; and ten, years hence,
perhaps, the curtain would rise sari the last acts to show, tricot
some tine Gentleman. acting SW Lard Chancellor, who niiiiiit
' bedeacribed in the world of Roger North., .as,. being " y ,
'caparisoned in a silk driest, but whose appointment astonished
%II the practitioners;"' a Gentleman who knew more tlf the
~ Court of St. James's than of the Coins of our Lord and ft:tog
in Westminster Hall. Under the prowls sYstfuri...„ i!: ntte- TS
best, nearly the best lawyer must be selected.
cie_tp9M
‘,
i,
Lord Chancellor. nut this security would eta* .if that Chutes _
bpttook
: Deputy,d,price:ldy,,,,,,,s)::,,,ieluak.:wfurg:7l:::l:l:::::::::ZEl,,,!::-,;:j!,;!,,:,,th',,,,,::::".:-,?:::::ii. ..-
~,,ive (1411140 d "Pu.!t4.170. The high theracter if the pre ' '
paid =otitis: their door Kee , ~ „._,_,
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_e
ail
,
f i ot repose with the settle confidenCe
Scotland, and they wou-‘. rt an
stil'lutriiimrytedhinegjtjuiel,,at
jicti‘4r4
,riteacnaldlidamaiiivnelgtrae'.ei3fr.:ol:,4:;:gioYfh.thij;euch:P:tiilitecYhti
jetiri
c's.it,o4h.tatinittlereil7r:aesuPot_
itirie;aeittliti,:,interiall;':wirs.f :
, what they Lad to expect. Sharper language he had newer

'heard than what fen from the Lord Chancellor, on a case
-of this kind. Ile would, describe the occasion. A factor had
snails an extravagant charge on the estate of an infant. The
Eourt of Sessions iii Scotland sustained, as it was called,. this
eatiarge, and sotureof the Judges had thrown out remarks, that
a hilth degrell of hospitality was necessary—that this furnished
the helm which united the different classes of society, and
thus hid iodinated that in their judgment eating and drinking
*ere necessary to keep up the connection as had been formed
when min was in a rud state inethe origin of society. The
charge was therefore allowed. 'When the case came before
Lord Eldon , who knew nothing of man in a- rude state, but
a- great deaf of man in a polished state, the question which
he put was this : Pray, di, •'s factor live near any, circuit
town ? His idea was, that so eof those who held this doctrine
had been connected, with others by thoee ties which, in their
judgment, finned the proper links ftir holding society togs-''
steer, and at once disallowed the charge. lie argued against the i
appointment of en intermediate Court of Appeals, which,
theugh formed of persoas of the highest character, such as the
, • Lord Adv ate, Air. •k, and Mr. Cranstown, woultilairto Cler
give 11:108 on. With respect to the other recoimpendation, I
to censidei' whether the'right of appeal tould not be properly
•WiLtitirawn altogether from some cases, he was satitied ehitt
could never be:acted upon; Lie again. expressed his ipproba.
tiara of bind Bill, and was, of opinion, that nothing beyond it
Hugh: to' have been done by the other House in the present
Set-sion.' No change in, the appellant jurisdiction would be sa-
tisfactory to Seotland; and he was of opinion that no case
had been made Alit which proved that one nun, aided as lerd
Eldon now was by the Alaster'of the Rolls end another deputy,
would not be found adeqw,te to perform all the duties which at
erhient attached to the 'office of'Lord Chenc.ellor.
The Al"rc/RN KY-GENERAL said the Leained Gentle-
men heal made a very amusing speech, which, however, had
net much to do with the question before tht Dalt, . Thai quae.
tien was simply ehis, Whether 'the SCA*. ' i• Commission
till should be read a third time? The real a which hail
4
been made- on the Lord. Chancellor were who .e uncalled for
•On this occasion. He preceeded to dnfend the ifeport on whiCh
the liettourable and twarned Gentleman had remarked, and
evens of opinion that no better means could be suggested for
getting rid of the Scotch Appeals than that Which had been
roposed for preventing their accuinulatien, by endeavour-
ing to effect reforms in the Courts of Scotland which would
make such Appeals unnecessary To 'ell'ect • these reforms
was the object of the present Bill, whieh had' the entire op-
, probation of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman. lie
did not mean to sarthut the plan was not peen to some ob-
jection, but they had only a choice of diffiettlties hef6l'o them,
and in his opinion the better course had beet' preferred. . The
Learned Gentleman hail treated the subject its if the only
,oh-
eet in View were to relieve the Lord. Chancellor. Such was
riot the fact.. It wits deshecl to get rid of the Senteli Appeals,
lilt not to spare the Loaf Chancellor. lie had heardspOken of
his suffering hie political avocations to interfere wiih his
judicial duties. If the Learned Gentlemen would take the
trouble to inquire into the Subject, he would find that' no man 1
two had held the office ever gave more time to his judicial
duties than had been devon'id by Lord Eldon. Ile agreed that
it would be an evil if the Lord Chancellor were hereafter to be
regarded` ae a political rather than a judicial character. But
of this there was no danger
,from the measure now propoiAl.
He denied that there had-been any
.improper attempt nutde by
rti the Lea to' ;withdraw this subject froiyi the jurisdiction of
the Commons. .If a Deputy Speaker were not appeinted
the Lord' Chancellor could not give more than three days in
the week tie Scotch appeals„ and those had been proved meth'.
ficient for the purpose. Alore than three days lie could not
be spared from his own Court without grievous injury to the
suitors. If it were wished. that the delays complained of should
continue, let the present system continue. But he was of opt-
nion, that the accumulation of appeals for the time to come
would. be in a great 111caitire prevented by the inquiry, now
proposed to be instituted. As the. Bill was now before the
• House for a thirst reading,; and as upon that question there was
no diKeence of opinion, he should not have troubled the House,
Gat for the' remarks of his lion. and Learned Friend:
Air. BILOVOILLAT explained.
AI r. Secretary CANNING said, that there was only one
:point to width he would address a very few•words. That the
evil complained of existed there wee no doubt ; and that the
Appellant Jurisdiction was the highest and most important
tribunal there was also no doubt e but if there was a visible
accumulation of arrears, beyond the possibility of reduction
by the regular mode of proceeding, it was equally certain that
same remedy must, be adopted. The point to which he meant
to confine himself, was the observation of the lion. and
' Learned Gentlanan, that no other opportunity would occur
for discussing the proposed alteration. The !louse would be
aware that in the chair re for Civil Contingencies, the salaries
of tbe °Meets of the linitses of Lord* and Commons were in.
eluded. In a dissection 'of one of these estinettes, he found
the sallary of the Earl of Shaftesbury. That of the officer to
be newly appointed v..ould appear in the sante manner in the
ry.itintates of next ' year, and tilinoet the terliest potable op-
eentunity 'would be thus afforded for disensting the subject,
then that vote was proposed.
Air. A IIERCRO3IIIY said, that this was the first occasion
4.,')011 whitil the plan in question could be discussed in that
Vouse, and it must be necessarily the last in the present So-
rtie:l.- Instead, therefore, of complaining of his lion. and
Irearnd Friend going 'into the subject now, they had a right
to complain that no opportunity had been sooner allowed for
diectuising it. It wile a matter of great public importance to
<decide whp should be the judge in the last retort, and what
eliould be the nature of that tribunal. • His Hon. and Learned
• Friend, theAttorneysGeneral, objected to the alltisions which
'.hhs Him; and Learned Friend (Mr. Brougham) had made to
the Court of Chancery. But what could be more important to
tie public, than the proceedings by which their property was
disposed of or 'protected P • Ile- knew not whether his 'Hon.
Friend, the Member for Lincoln, intended to renew his motion
upon this subject in the next Session ; hut he knew that it had 1
oaken such hold on the public mind, that whether lie proceeded
or not, the public would proceed, and they would never be sit.
tidied until a full inquiry were made into the mate of the busi-
wiseis in the Court of Chancery. He did not admit the evil coin,
pigiined of, to be as gieat as some stated it to be t but lot it be
what it would, .he preferred giving relief throujgh the business
of Chancery, to removing. the Lord Chancellor from the Appel-
hint•Jurisdiction in the House of Loran. . •
A Message 'from the Lords announced that their Lordships,
Lad agraixi to the Customs Duties Bill, and several others.
Mr. J. WILLTAAIS said,heenuet express his surprise that
they hasinot be:n favoured with. tile opinion of the Right Ii on.
Secretary of State for the Horne Department, and particularly
as the subject had been so fully dui:timed on his side of the
House. With respect to the Bill before the House, he had no
objection to it. But why, lie would ask, and he wished he
could suggest any fair and satisfactory anima to the inquiry,
for what earthly reason had the measure been delayed until
thapatisnce of the house was exhausted, and many Members
lied left town ? The evil which it intended usMeet was not the
,gtowth of a tily, or A week, or a year. It was as well known
•in January as in July.. They were, indeed, told by the Bight
Ii tin. Foreign Secretary, that the House Would have another
opportutsity of disetiasing it; anti this tea*, forsooth, to be
when they were called upon to Mote the allowance made to the
(ewer about to be created ; and then they should be met, as they
always were, with the charge of using pe.rsonal abuse. The
anly time when they could oppose the office without incurring
this charge was before the ()Meer tease appointed. His lion.
Friend had inquired whether it was his intention again to bring
forward his 11100011, and- he took thin occasion to reply to the
inquiry, to Fly., notice that he should take the earliest oppor-
tunity of doing so in the next Session.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said he saw something like a smile on
the Iron. and Learned aentleman'm countenenc: when he no-
ticed that he (Mr. Peel) had not taken part in the discussion.—
Ile would tell the House why he bad not done so. 111 the first
place, he had not heard the two first speeches of the debate ;
and besides that; having been in the IlOuse till three o'clock in.
the morning debating the InsOlVent Debtors' Bill, hit appetite
fdi discussion was not rernarkablyekeern His thirdreivion was,
ALAI benthoetitl give the same vote' as .die Horn and Learned
theitlinuart ; and, lee they were iill,aoced upon the Rill,; he did
not wish ta meted) the harmony that prevailed. Lastly. be
considered 'that a 'better opportutitty would'oifer itself for going
fully into the qiieetion, when it came benire the Itouse In all4l.
*ewe tiesixion 111)9t9 the vote being prOpoSed. The °Ricer wOuld
then not be Leo weeks old ; ant he could not conceive a better
in of expressing their opinion upon the appointment.
Mr. WETHERBLIesaid that a measure of this nature
oug_ht to have been brought down at a period when the House
could have investigated its merits. He did .not • mean to say
this in adoption or rejection of the plan ; and the language of
all who supported it to the other House only went to this, that
it was adopted in a.choice eef difficulties; lie did trot predict
that it was to be a 'permanent measure, but only intended to
apply to the present emergency. .
• Mr. TUNISIAN complained of the manner in which the pa.
teottage of the Bar ,was bestowed. Ile considered- it highly
improper that such men as his Hon. and Learned Friends, the
Alembets for Winclielsea and Lincoln were. not placed-more
tieriverel, and it was a veryieriousinconvenieoce to the Northern
Circuit,
The Bill was then read a third time. and passed. •
' • -SLAVER Y. .
Mr. WILBERFORCE gave notice of his intention to sub.
not a 'notion, beforb the House broke up, to inquire into the
coutlition ef the Slaves and Free Indians in. Honduras. '
'lord A, HAMILTON pre/iented a Petition against Slavery
in' Wu West Indies. •
. • . ' LIIIEJtTY OF THE PRESS.
. . Mr. II HAM took this oortunity of asking a question of
tlieltight Hon. fient:.(litfie Wynn), which affbcted the Liberty'of the erDis in India. 'He had been inforixied that Mr. Buck.,