The Sun.
London, England, 1840-02-01 00:00:00

question to my Right Hon. Friend ; I would say, when you
hive placed the Roman Catholics and Protestants on anu
equality in point of law, do you mean to admit them to
an equality in the enjoyment of office ? and if you do, you
will see the Roman Catholics and Protestants ad:ninister-
ing, equally, the affairs of a Protestant State. you
do not mean to look forward to this state of things, and
merely intend to give the Roman Catholics nominal
equality, I say that that practical exclusion from office will
be far more galling to them than any disability under which
they now labour, because it will be an exclusion on per.
sonal grounds." These, Sir, wore the Right Hon.
Baronet's words ; and I bare often indeed blushed of late
to see what outrage has been made with the name and
principles of Protestantism. Far be it from me, like
some in very high places of rabid orthodoxy, far be
it from me to stigmatize the name of Protestant as
odious--( Hear, and cheers)—cr to decry its vital and
essential principles, but I have ever conceived that
Protestantism in its original aim, and in its vital principle,
has not intended to draw out any line of demarcation, or to
parcel out any spot of separation on this earth, but to faci-
litate the access of all under the seencric name of Chris-
tians; and I, for one, think we arc all sometimes to attend
to various principles, doctrines, and habits—the epithet of
" Protestant," which, it is to be rem-irked, is in itself oc-
casional and temporary, and to overlook that of Christian,
which is for all times and for all ages, to fill and survive the
world.—( Loud cheers.) The only tangible fact which I
think I have heard alleged against the actual proceedings
of the Irish Government—l am sure it was the only tan-
gible fact alleged against them by the Hon. Mover of this
vote—on which is to be founded our ezelu: ion from office,
and the substitution of the Gentlemen opposite in our
places, was the circumstance of the Lord Lieutenant of
Ireland having entertained the lion. and Learned Member
fur the city of Dublin at his table. ( Laughter.) Now I
must say that these dinners seem to produce a great
impression on Hon. Gentlemen opposite.—( Laughter.)
However, since I have been connected with the Govern-
ment of Ireland, in one Session of Parliament or another,
there has been a good deal said about the circumstance of
the Lord Lieutenant in Ireland having entertained to din-
ner my Hon. and Learned Friend—a pleasure which
I have shared in common with the two distinguished
Noblemen under whom I had the honour to serve. Now,
of one thing I am quite confident, that if the Lord Lieu-
tenant of Ireland should be asked whether he disapproved
of any speech, or of any expression, or of any proceeding
by whomsoever adopted, he would not have hesiested
frankly to express his opinion, and I will go farther and
state that there very many things which have been said by
the lion. and Learned Member, and something moreover
done by him, of which we not only do not approve, but of
which we very strongly disapprove.—( Hear, hear.) Allu-
sion particularly has been made to recent speeches made
by the Hon. and Learned Member for the city of Dublin,
and to some talk of arming 500,000 men.—( Hear, hear,
from Mr. O'Connell.) Now the difference is, that when
in 1829 the Hon. and Learned Member talked of arming
500,000 men, the Government of that day receded from
their opinions and gave way to it, highly to their credit;
whereas we, in no one particular that I can charge my me-
mory with, have abandoned no one opinion in deference to
my Honourable and Learned Friend. re'sut others have
made allusions, which I think are always to be deplored, to
physical force. Allow me to turn to the speeches of the
memorable mover of the Committee in the House of
Lords—l mean, the Earl of Roden—and nothing shall
fall from me relative to the patriotism or the misdirected
exertions of what he conceives is for the public good,
which distinguished that Nobleman. He said on one oc-
casion, " Notwithstanding the apparently awful odds in
this country, we have, thank God, the moral energy, as ,
well as the necessary accompaniments of sinew and bone,
on our side." On another occasion, and before a very
large multitude of people, he said, "It is not people of
hig station we seek after. If they come, we shall be
most happy to receive them, and are ready to unite with
them, but it is to the bone and sinew and the strength and
unanimity of the people of Ireland, emphatically so called,
that we look for support."—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON—What is the date of that ?
Lord MORPETH-1832, during the constitutional
agitation which was got up in the North of Ireland against
the passing of the Reform Bill.—( Cheers.) I can assure
the Hon. and Learned Member opposite that I can supply
him with several very choice passages to the same effect :
I do not say all from Lord Roden, but from those who as-
sisted at such meetings.—( Cheers.) Ido not think Lord
Roden meant to take the field in opposition to his Roman
Catholic countrymen. I suppose he thought they would
act upon the offensive, and that he would be prepared to
meet them. I hope the same meaning was intended to be
conveyed by the Hon. and Learned Member—( Opposition
cries of " Oh," and Ministerial cheers)—and that if un-
constitutional, illegal, and violent practices were resorted
to under the domination of the Tories, he should be pre-
pared to wage open war against them, and to resist them
even to the death.—( Cheers, and cries of " Oh.") How-
ever, I do regret that he did not more explicitly convey
his meaning, and that he left himself liable to misconcep-
tion.—( Laughter on the Opposition Benches.) The
Government of Ireland has frequently disapproved of
many things which have been said by my Hon. and
Learned Friend ; but then you say we invited him to
dinner—l beg pardon of the House for condescending to
such a topic—and that we bestow a lucrative appointment,
in a public department, on one of his sons. Now I have
no hesitation in saying for himself that not denying the many
objectionable things which may from time to time have been
said by the Hon. and Learned Member,—not concealing
the many objectionable things also which have been pro-
posed by him, some of which those on this side of the
House have shown themselves the foremost to oppose ;
and if I know those with ;wham I am associated,—if
the occasion should arise, they would again show them-
selves the foremost to oppose,—not denying or conceal.
ing from myself those things, yet, taking into considera-
tion all that has occurred since the accession of the pre-
sent Government to office,—all that has occurred in
England,—all that has occurred in Ireland,—all that has
occurred with respect to the combination of trades in
Dublin—(Hear, hear)—all that has occurred with respect
to the Chartist insurrection in England—( Hear, hear)—
I do believe that the energies and abilities of the
Learned Member for Dublin—sure to hare great
weight, and to exercise prodigious influence on whateverside
they are exercised—have, on the whole, been exerted
for the maintenance of order.—(Loud cries of " Oh, eh 1"
from the Opposition.) I am not asking your agreement
or sympathy in that opinion. lam stating my own honest
impression of the actual state of things, and I say that,
on the whole, the Hou. and Learned Member's influ-
ence has promoted the maintenance of order, and the
peace of the country.—(Cheers, and cries of " Oh I")
I shall advert for one moment to a charge, which I under-
stood to have been made by the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Member for Pembroke, that my Noble Friend, the
late Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, had encouraged, by a
speech which he made in the House of Lords, assemblages
of large bodies of people. Now, I contend that the words
used by my Noble Friend, in his place in Parliament, do
not bear that interpretation. His words were these :
" In answer to the Noble Lord's question, as to the course
Government intend to take, I beg to state the Govern-
ment intend to watch the proceedings of those meet-
ings, but I know of no power to prevent those meet-
ings, provided their object is legal. We are all
aware that large public meetings not legally con-
vened sometimes take place in England. There
have been very great Anti-Poor-law meetings, and
though some inconvenience has been occasioned at those
meetings, yet so long as we live under the British Con-
stitution, there is no power to prevent the holding of
meetings for legal purposes. I regret there should be
meetings on the question of tithes. I believe they have
not been so frequent since I have been in office as before,
and all that have been assembled have passed off peaceably.
This I can assure the Noble Earl, on the part of the Go-
vernment, that if it should be found those meetings arc
not held for the purpose of petitioning Parliament, but
for intimidation, every possible means of precaution and
intervention will be employ ed." Perhaps I ought to leave
it to lawyers to decide as to the strict law, but with respect
to the practice of the two parties, all I have to state is,
that when Hon. Gentlemen opposite are in power, it is
found necessary to dispel large public meetings at the point
of the sword : and on the occasion specially referred
to in the quotation I have read to the House,
so far from any such painful necessity being imposed on us,
the course of the Irish Government was, by remonstrance
and persuasion, to prevent any meetings taking place at
all.—( Hear.) Sir, I feel how much I have trespassed on
the attention of the House, and I therefore come at once
to touch very bristly on the main point, which is to be put
in issue by the vote of this night. You tell us that we are
a weak Government, and that we ought to give p!acc to
make room for a stronger. Now that the circumstances
of the country do call for a strong Government, and that
the interests of the public service would be benefited
thereby, no one is more fully persuaded than myself; but
when you tell us to make way for yourselves, I want to
know, where do you point out the elements, and how do
you guarantee to us the formation of a strong Government?
—( Cheers and laughter.) Is it among those who formed
the Ministry in the latter part of 1834, and in the early
part of 1833, who began their period of official existence
in this House in a minority, and afterwards, as the Right
llon. Baronet on the opposite Bide very good humouredly
remarked the other night, counted their nights by their
minorities?—( Cheers and laughter.) Since that period
the party in question have received the formal adherence of
a section, of the utmost possible weight in point of talents,
and of the least possible weight in point of num
bers.—(Loud cheering and laughter.) And since
that, their united effects have never been able, on one single
question of importance, on one single question of Con-
stitutional importance, to reserve a majority from her Ma-
jesty's present Alistister=.—( Cheerg.) Is it that the
accord in sour language and sentiments well make up for
the comparative scantiness of your numbers—do you take
upon yourselves to say teat there is anything no ,v among
you which separates itself from the speeches of Canterbury,
of Ashton, and of Derby ((„Curlipeearrsty)in_Adoroerys,otaigarnededyooun;
party out of doors, it rie?t—,
is a
that vote t
ah tt
eohmeerr props_ciu
the policy of carrying out the Catholic Relief- Bill ?
( Cheers.) Are you agreed on the subject of Irish Educa-
tion ?—(Cheers.) Or do you think that the vote of
people who are
genatdeowidmoleart
admis-
sion of a Catholic Chaplain into our gaols is
l
provision for the good of the
opposed
in-
carcerated, or that it is the admission of the "abomina-
tion tion of desolation ?''—( Cheers.) Why, upon Your---
great stalking-horse, the present Corn laws, and its
matchless and immutable perfections, one of your sup-
porters told us last night that he was decidedl
to the principle and working of the present Corn-laws.
—( Hear, hear.) I have perceived that you are very sen.
sitive on the subject of privilege ; and I have no doubt the
Right Hon. Baronet, who took so distinguished and
honourable a part in those debates, is prepared to launch,
before this debate closes, a very vigorous and effective
speech against her Majesty's Ministers, with all the skill
and means which his great dexterity and resources enable
him ; bat as to any abiding cordiality between you, the
discussions of last night have offered a very striking,
but by no means the first and only proof. When in this
debate it was so important for you to exhibit a show of
unison, the Hon. Member for Durham stated that the
conduct of his leader was marked by tyranny and in-