The Sun.
London, England, 1823-07-09 00:00:00

PARLIAMENT,

HOUSE. OF :LORDS JULY 8.
ROYAL, 'ASSENT.'
The Royal Assent was given by Commission to the Ada de
se Bill, the Larcenies' Bill, the Irish Elections' Bill, and se-
veral Private Bills. The Commissioners were the I4onn
CHANCELLOR, Earl BATHURST, and the Earl of SHAPTES-
RUB.Y.

The Barilla Duties' Bill was read the third time; us were
the Lotteries' Bill, and Irish Uourt.of Chancery Bill.
MARRIAGES ABROAD.
Lord HOLLAND moved the second reading of the Mar-
riages Abroad Bill, and gave notice that he should move the
third reading tomorrow.
The Slave Trade Acts' Frill was read the first time. The
Irish Customs Putiesßiltwas read a second dine.

SCOTCH. JURIES BILL.
Viscount MEd:ULLA:: moved the second reatling of the
Stvtch Juries 13111.

'.The Earl of LAUDERDALE objected to several clauses.
Viscount MELVILLE:odd; the Bill was similar to a toes-
sure passed lost Session, which had been found to answer in
every respect the desired. object. The Bill. was then read the
second time. ' •'
BILLS FROM THE COMMONS.. .•
.
Mr. Cou T tiNEX brought up -Meslage,'acpuunting the
Lords, that the Commons had agreed to the amendments made
by their- LOidships in the Prisons' Bill.
Mr. BROGDEN brought up, the Irish Court of Chancery Bill,
the EscherpterStamps'Bill, and Viscount St. Vincent's Pen-
sion Bill, which were read, the first time.

Lord AUCKLAND reported the Limerick Regulation Bill.
• IRISH TITHES.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL, on rising to move the secand
reading of the Irish Commutation of Tithes Bill, said, he was
ready to admit that this was one of the most important subjects
which could be submitted to the consideration of den House.
The difficulty and importance of it were proved by its being
the first mensure of the sort which had ever been submitted to an.
Imperial Parliament, though the circumstances had been con—
sidered a grievance for many years put; but as many in-
terests were to be consulted, and numberless prejudices com-
bated, it was not surprising that any individtial should be
eantious of approaching the subject. This measure might bit
opposed-by two descriptions of persons,--nnmely,.,those who
thought that .the measure would endanger the safety of the
church,• and those who thought the measure dide not go far
enough. To the first objectors he should say, that be hoped the
whole tenor of his political life was a sit tficient security tor Nth
that he would not, with his eyes open, do any thing-that might
touch the safety of that church,. to `which no men ,wasenore sin_
merely attached: He would contend, that antecedent to the
union, and even by the articles of Mil* the Church of the
-united kingdom was °lie. Ile was ready hi:oomq 'tior that
principle, even as regarded the advantage of Ireland ; and
though he thought that any, obtrnsive, mean? of cenverting, the
Itoman CatholieS or heland Would he injudicionS yet he could
not but look with hope to theltiroAras of knowledge and infor-
Illation for the extensitm or the Church in Wall. t--ite-inust
think that any measure which would affect the clerterof Ireland
most important tp. the welfateef that country;. foe :monk the
most useful class. of -residents ;there, untlanbtedyf might be
numbered the Members of thy ttiteehl3shed Church ; and though'
any measure which might tend to make that reitacitce more
eftectual was desirable, yet the residence of the Cleigy to its
present extent did. in'. certain degree tend to Centeract the evils
to which ahssineeship gave rise. The objet( he had in, present-
ing this Bill for 'their Isinalships' consideration was, not to
weaken, but to strengthen—mit to the,inituence of the
Clergy, but to do away with those causes which had that
effect. It was not his intention' touch upon the subject
pf tithes, as to the atheintages disadvantagee Of that ttiode of
paying
to twe-thirds of the tithes were thefirOperty of laymen • and
it. was acknowledged that -the Mae were the most indit'lgent
class of tithe proprietors, He Was hot prepared toe.oneur with
t those wheethought that tithes the nhatract was tin objection-
able mode of paying the 'established church ; lie even thought
It was the best mode of pay-
that, under certain circituistancese
ing it. He was himself connected wish a part of the- country
where tithes were take' in kind, and yet he never heard of any
grievance resulting from that mode. The real cause of the
culls which afflict Ireland was the manner in which property
was divided and subdivided 40 that VOlintry, preventing thereby
the formation of a respectable,middling
were true as talent!, it equallY applied to tithes; and that'which
class in the commonitY,
on which the strength of every country must depend, If this
in one country might be no grievance at all, as applied to the
community at large, yet might lit the other give rise to a con-
stant
series of grievances andliti~atinn.Be therefore reined
this Bill not on the ground of &bee in the abstract, but its it
applied particularly to the state Pf property in the country to
which it applied. There was itethe Bill nothing compoisatY
it proceeded altogether on the principle of voluntary composi-
tion. The Noble Earl here cited the principal clung* of the
Bill, and concluded by observing, that he did not propose it es
a perfect measure, or as one to which many modifkatinnsmight
not hereafter be necessary ; but he thought their Lord-
ships would not act wisely. if they rejected it altogether,. be
cause it waft not at preSent in so perfect a shape as a little expe-
rience would give it ; for if they waited till a perfect melesure
.were brought before them on any novel subject, they would on
such subjects never legislate at all.
The Marquis of LA NSDOWN thought that
the principle
of the Bill should be reciprocity +
advantage' between the
tithe-owner and the tithe-payer e and would suggest, MCtc,farote
: 0
that flit the Commissioners hail power when they saw ,good, to'
add 20 per cent. to the receipt of the clergyman,'so they should
have power, in such other cases aft to them seemed fit, to dimi-
nish that receipt by eqt per cent, lie objected also to the.prin.
ciple upon winch the average had been frnied. T take eel
average of seven years prior to the year was to throw in
five years of the high pnces which existed previous to the pass-
irg of Peel's hill ; and to construct a system which was to np_
ply under the resumed cash-payments upon an leverage formed
out of prices which had maintained under a paper currency,
seemed to him (Lord rainsclown) smear and absurd. An.
other important objection to the Bill was, its effect (where.
ever it was carried into execution) upon the land of agistment.
At present the holder of agistment land paid no tithe what-
ever ; but under the new regulation of payment by parishes,
his privilege would be lost. lie (the Noble Marquis) by no
means said that the intereet of individuals ought not, under
some circumstances, to yield to the public advantage ; bits
in all cases where there was a loss tilers ought to be an vine,
relent; and he doubted whether the operation of*the Bill would
promise so nmch benefit to any p!stish as to induce the holder
of agistment land to surrender his personal exemption. The
Noble Alarquie concluded by stating, as his opintolnbre
teita, the
Bill was very unlikely to be carried into effect any ,
was to a commutation of tithes by exchange for land that he
eventually looked for benefit to Ireland. lie expected no be-
nefit from the measure before the house; but as it formed a
sort of opening to an important subjeet, he felt botend to give
it his support.
The Earl of lIA lIROWBV thought it unnecessary to give
the Commissioner* the power of reducing Clergymen's Income, ;
because it was impassible that they should ever find any case in
which a Clergyman had received more than his due. He con-
fessed that he didnot expect (now the compulsory clause was
struck out) to see. the Bill very rapidly acted upon ; nor was it
clear to him that a compulsory measure wtatitt not yet be found
indispensable.
The Earl of CA RNA VON said, that if we did not get
rid of tithes, we should soon get rid of Ireland, mine
pulsory clause had been resisted as a strong measure in the first
instance ; but the provisioner the Willi to the holders of agiste
meat land. was not only a strong, but a partial measure, in the
first instance.
The LORD CHANCELLOR protested against the
w treating
tithes as a tax. The one-tenth was <unell the property of the
Clergyinan as the ether nine-tenths were the property of the
Landeowner.
1 The Earl of LIN'ERPOOL, in explanation, hoped that the
Ate would '•ret a fair trial in Ireland. If that iere done then
they would next year see how far the measure were beneficially
or 110 G
Lord CLIFDEN, although he complained generally of the
tithe system in Ireland, affecting as it did en imPoverished
pulation, yet would insist Nein the introductioa of compul.
satory clause to give something like effect to this Bill, and to-
morrow he should move for its insertion. .
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be me_
milted to-morrow.
The 14,000,0601. Exchequer Bills 111.1 was coMmitted ; the
other Itills before the House were forwarded thrOugh their se-
veral starlit; and the House then toltioltrned.

HOUSE OF, CIFMAIO ‘. S.

On the motion of Mr. litivroN a Return was ordered of
the number of busl,ds of Malt ellarged with duty the
sth January, 1822 ta thelith January, 113353..
Mr. F. fiLIXToN. also moved fur Extracts or. Copies of.
Correspondence with Government as to the state of Slavery at
the Cape of Good Hope.
Dr. PHILLIMORE-brought in a Bill for allowing Roman
Catholic Priests to seleninize Illarriagcs between Roman Ca-
tholics, under certain restrictions. It was read a-. lost time ;
the second reading was postponed for three months, anti the
Hill ordered to be printed.
The St. Petersburgh Marriage Bill was read a aiaind time.
Mr..II..IIIATON laid upon the table two petitions
.front
places in Norfolk against the existence. oftilavery. -
Lord St. Vincent's-Annuity Dill was read a thire time' and
passed., ,
NEW SOTTTII WA! ES,BILL.

several Sit
3teiticCryn,Kv/iNet'ls'6ol:i.Ngeilvirselnatiedis:id2ition front
complain--
ing of the effect of certain disabilities ithposed upon them by
tieeisions of the Courts of Law in that Colony. The necessity
of presenting thiS Petition arose in con Sequence, of the course
taken by Ministers last 'night in the debate of the New south
Wales Bill. The Petitioners did not appeal to the liberality
but to the strict justice of, the l nsse. After stating the pro-
perty possessed by the Petitioners, amounting as they•stated to
a million sterling; the Petition went on to observe, that the
attainder upon each of then), through- their Convictions, re-!
• maned in ibrce, in consequence of an omission on the part of
Government to complete the pardon which had been granted'
their -by the Tlovernor'or the Colony. He really hoped the
House would retain the clauses in the Bill which Ministers
wished to be left out, and )vhich proposed to grant the relief
prayed for by the Petitioners.
• The Petition. was ordered to be printed.
Dr.- I..LTSH INGTO,N.presented a Petition froth several per.
sons in favour-of the fret of Religious Discussion.
After a few words from Mr. HUME, the Petition was ordered
to be printed. ,1
THE PENITENTIARY.

RENNET brought up the Report of. the ..Committee
xin the State of Prisons. On moving • that it be printed, the
Hon.. Member observed, that after the most minute inveitiga-
don, the Committee saw no reason to find' fault with the CM.
vcrnor of the Penitentiary at, Milbank, who discharged his
duties in the most exemplary manner. The cause of the 'nor-
,t-elity in that place was, he believed, to be attributed to the se.
'veiny of the weather, co-operating with the moisture arising;
from the adjoining river. , The evil had, however, been cons!.
'derably mitigated ; and, under the care 'and.skill of the meth.
:eel attendants, it was expected that it would be almost entirely
removed. The Secretary of State for the Hoale Department
had shown every attention W.. the subject, anti every disposition
to afford all the relief in his power. The Report was then or.
• dered to be primed. • ' • • •
Mr. PALM ER presented a Petition frOm a place in Berle
shire, the name of which we did not bear, praying for a Reform
in Parliament...:-Ordered to be printed.
-'Mr. M A BERIX moved for several Returns relative to the
Charges on the Consolidated Fund.—Ordered.
" • • • TRISH 'CURRENCY.

Sir,H. PARNELL gave notice, that he should next Session
move. for a Committee' to inquire into the state of the Irish
Currency,' with a 'vie* to assimilate it to that of England. •
Mr. BUTTERWORTH presented a Petition from several
Tea-dealers of St. Pancras,.complaining, us we understood, of
the unequal amount of the duties on Tea-dealers' Licenses in
arid near Limdon.:---Ordered to lie on the table, after a few
words in icy favour from Mr. 11. Gri.nkin.T..
.SaUTH AMERICAN REPUBLICS.

'Mr. J. SMITH presented a .Petition from a person of the
name of Lowe a merchant of London, complaining of the
inconvenienee •he in common with' others taitibred in cense-
kn oce of their hei vim .aceredited English Agent in Colombia.
. e did not say that Ministers were without very good reasons
,
r not acknoi•ledging the IlePublic of Colt-1611)4i, but be be-
lieved that they were'hardly aware of . the importance of that
country with referenre to our commercial relations. • The
prayer of the Petitioner was ,‘ the reeognition of Colombia, as
a free anti independent State, in order that our eotnmerce may
increase with its prosperityand that oar industry stay find
employmentin itt9iches and wealth."
—__

Mr. ROBERTSON censured his Majesty's Ministers for not
having acknowledged the Republic of e!oloinbia, and the other
new Stales of South America. If Ministers were • waiting for
the sanction of the European Powers, they would do well to re-
collect
theconduct of those Powers when we were at war with
our own colonies. The Advantages which would attend our
commerce by a dee regard of these States were immense ; and
be sincerely wished Ministers would follow the independent
-Conduct of the United States of America in this respect.
. After a few.wortht from 'Mr. BUXTON,
• Mr. MARRYATT agreed in opinion with the petition, and
thought it highly desirable that. this country should acknow.
lodge these States.
The petition was then. ordered to be printed.
A Message from the Lords hero announced by their Lord-
ships' assent to several Bills. '
• APPROPRIATION BILL.
Mr. 11ii3113 begged to call the attention of the Houm to
what had -taken place last night respecting the Appropriation
Bill,' and which he considered as deeply affecting the prtvileges
of the House:: On
,the 25th of June in this year, leave was
given to bring in two Bills, one in particular relating to Ex-
chequer Bills, not a word being then Said about appropriation.
On the :Id of July the House went into a Committee on this
Bill, the next day it was reported, a clause having been intro-
duced in the Committee respecting the general appropriation
of the Supplies,. although nothing appeared on the Joutnals to
spew that the Bill referred, to any thing but the Exchequer
Bills. Ile did not say that much observation would be neces-
sary on the Appropriation Bill, but he complained of the op-
portunity for any observation being taken away. It was saul
that the course now taken was the usual course, but this he
altogether denied. The Appropriation Bill hail usually been
presented as a separate Bill, down to the 1822. The pre.
sent practice interfered with the- Constitutional right of the
House to examine all questions of supply. He melted, there-
fore, a Resolution :-..‘"rhat the Appropriation Bill of this
year had been passed without the usual notice; in consequence
sif which the usual opportunity of watching the Wants of
Supply had not' been allbrdcd."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he ap.:
prehended the Hon. Gentleman had taken an erroneous view
of die practice of -the House. Undoubtedly there was no dis-
tinct notice of the Bill ; but, in point of fact, since the year
1700, there. had been innumerable instances of introducing the
Appropriation Clause, sometimes in one Bill, sometimes in
another. He could not admit that an thing irregular had been
done, though be wished that the fullest opportunity should al-
ways be given of discussing matters of 'Supply. For the fu.
tore he should take care to give notice which Bill lie intended
to take for the purpose of introducing the Appropriation
clause.- (Hear, bear, hear'.)
W... . •
Mr. MABM' thought the Appropriation Bill ought
always to be;printed.
11 r. ABERCROMBY said, it Was clear that the modern
practice had been departed from, whatever' reliance might be
placed upon earlier times.
Mr. IILISKISSON said he was not disposed to retract or
qualify any thing he had said last night on the subject. There
nova was a Bill brought into the Ileum as an Appropriation.
Bill alone.--(Near, hear !)..-The course was for the last Corn-
; mittee of Supply to have instructions to receive a Clause of Ap-
propriaticm. He could show numerous instances of this. Some-
times the Clause was. introduced in a Glass Duty Bill, some-
times in an Exchequer Bills Bill, and at times in other Bills ;
but he confidently stated that it had never been introduced
specifically, and by name as an Appropriation Bill. He would
take upon himself to say that his Right Ilon. Friend, when he
gave notice of the annual statement of .-the Budget, said that he
should make' that statement in the Cotninatee upon the Ap-
propriation Act. This was a sufficient notice, and if lion.
Gentlemen had lonked at the votes next morning, they would
have seen the Bill so named. -
Lord A. HAMILTON, said that what the Right lion..
Gentleman had advanced did not contradict the stateineet of his
Hon. -Friend theMembet for Aberdeen. The Bills for 1842
and the preceding yeara were called in the printed notice, .Ap-
propriation Bills. It was - highly important and necessary
that they should understand the course to be pursued in future.
• Mr. littaxissox explained.
111 r. CA LCR AFT said that the Bill appeared whew passed
through the house by miseake, without the knowledge of Mem-
bers,' and be was sure that true courtesy of the Right Hon.

. -
Chancellor of the Exchequer would induce him to give amen
specific noiiee in future.
After a few further observations from Mr. CREEvEr, Mr.
Lnsts INO TON, Air. CA LORAET, and Mr. 'CANNING, Mr.
11U att withdrew his motion. •
FOREIGN POLICY.
Colonel PALAIER expressed his regret that the Honour-
able Member for knaresborough had withdrawn his motion on
this subject. Ile (Colonel Palmer) felt bit/licit'. nevertheless,
obliged to express his opinion, ;der the public notice he had
given otitis intention to GO so, which intention he. had only re-
linquished upon learning that the lion. Member hadpropotted
to take it up ; but the proceedings, if the Hon. Member had
compelled hiin to the painful alternative of declining 'what it
would appear he ought not, to have undertaken, or presarning
to undertake .te'hat un Honourable Alember of so -much- weigh
t
and eetimation he that Floitse heti declined. In this diletrarta
he bogged, to give notice ii w. he should to-moi-row express Ina
own opinion on the foreign policy fix the purpose or rttleem.
ing Ins promise ; but lie shotud not feel it necessary to call for
the eenae of the House.
BEER
Mr. C. F. PALMER, seeing the Chancellor of the Excite.
quer in ills Place,. beggL'd I)ertniattion to put a question tec..hins
relative to this Rill,
.by answering which the
demon would set at rist• litany doubts which were- at present-
entertained. Ile .wished to know whether the public brewer
was enabled by the present law, regulating the trade in beer, to
retail beer or ale in smaller quatititi,.,s than four tullons and a
half; the beer not to he consumed upon the premises, turd the
brewer not taking out a publican's license.
The CHANCELLOR. of die EXCHEQUER, in riliing to
move the third reading of the Irish and Scotch Distilleryßill,
took the opportunity of replying to the Hon. Member's twee-
titn As he understood the Bill alluded to, the restriction ap-
plied only to persons selling quantities of beer less than four
and a half gallons, for which they took out a.partieular license,
and these • brewers did not enjoy the advantages grarited to
others. The brewer.who did not retail received as an allitiance
one-twelfth of the dui%, and the brewer who dill retail ieeelved
the profit upon the sale of the bet..r. The object of the wet was
to prevent any individual front reteiviug both these advantages.
On the motion for the third residing of the
DISTILLERIES HILL.
Mr. ‘l'. SMITH, understanding that it was the intention of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer to add, upon the third TVatt-
ing of this 13111, a Clause relative to the Scotch distillers, begged
toinform hiin that 'be bad a petition against that clause from
the English distillers, who prayed to be heard at the.bar Iyy
their counsel.

The CIIANCELL(Mt of the EXCHEQUER said, he' W al+
aware w the provision to which the lion. Member Minded, al-
though he had not stated it,expressly. The object of the pre-
sent Bill was solely that of effecting an uoiformitv ire th•e sys-
tem and practice in Scotland anti -Ireland. England had beim
left out of the arrangement altogether. As the law nathitood,
the Scotch distiller would bring his goods 'into • the Market of
England upon the same terms as • the English distiller but it
was required that he should give.a year's notice of his inten-
tion to do so, and for 'that period his mannfactories remained
idle. • This was considered. a - very hard regulation, and the
Commissioners reconaneoded that the time should be changed
from twelve months to'diree. To this he saw •no objection,
end therefore -consented. But when the subject came to !%,
discussed, the English distillers: complained of the. hardship
of
,having. this- clause introduced into a BillWhieh -professed
not to interfere with English regulations. - He considered the
Bill likely to confer great benefits upon Scotland and Ireland,
and if the opposition to the clause in question would Sodelav
it as to prevent its-passing this Session, he should nOt:be.abre
to press it. • • - - • ••. -
Lord A. HAMILTON said, that if the state of thelloust
was such as not to allow them j.o perfect their own measures,
the sooner-they adjourned the better.. ,• -, -• '
The CitaxcELLon of•• the Exotrutirn explained: •
Mr. KEITH DOUtiLAS defended the clause.
Mt.•Eßltifirspoke in, favour of the clause, And ex pressed
his hope that the Right. Hon. the Chancellor 'of the Exatequer
would- enforce it. • •• .

Mr. WALLACE, said that the existing law was very ieriotis.
Ip injurious to the Scotch Distiller, and no one could doubt the
Justice of the principle on which the alteration was proposed.
But he did not deny that the English Distiller. was interested
in it, and with the attention which that House, always paid to
the interests of all who were faceted by itivatas' it was mipos-
sible that they could retbte to give the parties a full hearing.—
' As such a course would inevitably throw out the measure for
the present Session, lie approved of the prudent course taken
by his Bight Hon. Friend:
Mr. HUME supported the proposed alteration, and 824 that
he hoped another year would not pass without the Duties on
Spirits being equalised.
111 r. IVI ABER IN said, that the article produced by the Eng..
lish Distiller would not find a market in Scotland, acid he there-
fore did not get a fair exchange by the alteration. All that the
English Distillers asked, was a full hearing of the questions
when.the Proper tine arrived.
Mr. W. SMITH said that the English Distillers' so far
front desithig to throw any impediment in the way of inquiry,
were most anxious that in another Session the whole question
should be fully investigated.
The'Order of the Day was then read, and upon the motion
that the Bill be read a third time,
Mr. C. HUTCHINSON- contended that the clause ought to.
be added to the Bill, notwithstanding the opposition it was
likely to meet with. As the Scotch Members had deserted their
vantage ground, and left only himself and the Hon. Member
for Limerick to speak for Ireland, he could not hope to make a
successful-J.loft. But as he represented a great Distillery In..
terest, he felt it his duty not to concur in the course adopted by
the Right lion. Gentleman, although he should not make use,
of vexatious opposition. ife hoped that the measures adopted
towards Ireland would be found as successful as the Right
Honourable Gentleman anticipated, because he was sure they
had proposed them with the sincere desire of benefitting that
country. But he was afraid, that lowering the ditties on spi-
rits would be fatal to the peace of Ireland. The true object to
be pursued was that of encouraging breweries, and of iliseoun .
tenanting the ,use of spirits. By allowing the use of small
stills the consumption would be increased, and those Gentle,
men who had embarked great capitals in the large distilleries,.
made under the sanction of Parliament, would ho seriously
injured in their property. lie trusted that in another Seission
the Bight Bon, Cieralenian would .not WI to bring forward a
measure For placing the three Countries upon an equal footing,
and he thought it would be better for the preseut Bill to stand
over until a general measure was completed. The Hort
her then complained that Ireland Ittul been cheated of her
rights by the distillery regulations. The Act of Union pro-,
vided that Ireland should bring her spirits into the English
market in the state in which they were manufactured. But
afterwards, the Hon. Member for Norwich, (Mr. W. Smith),
among others, discovered that they were too strong, or that they
had too high a flavour for the morals of the people, strati they
were stopped on the coast, and made to pass througli the handa
of the rectifier. It was but the other. night that the House
made an important relaxation in our navigation laws, to favour
foreign countries, yet these prohibitions were kept up against
Ireland. The Irish Distillers had been exceedingly in treated,,
and had any interest in England been so much neglected, they.
would have heard more of it in that House.
Colonel TRENCH expressed his entire concurrence in this
system of small stills. If it were carried to a much greater ex-
tent, it would be highly beneficial for Ireland.
The Bill was then read a third time.
Mr. H ERBIL'S rose to submit some clauses to be
the Bill by way of rider.
Mr. S. RICE protested against alterations being matte to the
law at so late a period, when no one present could have any
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The um was then passo.