The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-03 00:00:00

charging his duties.—(Hear, hear.) It was said that the
landlords of Ireland were beggars, bat he denied that state-
ment. With the assistance of Government, it would be found
i that the landlords of Ireland were quite ready to do the. h
duty; bat of this subject he should be prepare('
to speak when the proper time arrived for doing so. Ht
would no longer trouble the House except to entreat Govern-
ment to encourage emigration and colonisation, and to than).the people of this country and the Government for the anxiety
they had evinced for alleviating the distress of Ireland.
Lord CLEMENTS thought the Irish Members had been
unjustly blamed for the failure of the Public Werlis Act, be-
cause it was not likely that they could be in their places when
their services were required in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) At
all events he would not share any of the blame. His services
were more useful in Ireland at the time the Bill was passed than
they would have been had he been in his place in the House.
He admitted that the statement that farmers had forsaken their
farms, to labour on the Government works, eras correct; but they
were to blame in this respect, as they had held out inducements
for them to leave their legitimate means of subsistence. The
wages were, first, 2d. a day less than the usual rate, but tht
Government yielded to the popular clamour, and in-
creased the rate of payment to that demanded-
-( Hear, hear)— and now they come forward and charged
the country gentlemen with being deficient in firmness,
and with having given relief to those who were not fit reci
pients. The Government officers had not carried out the
measures in a proper manner, as in many instances they had
sought the advice of the resident proprietors. Captain Lay ard
was appointed in the district in which he lived (in Leitrim),
but he never consulted him (Lord Clements). He therefore
blamed the Government for not having sought the advice of
those who were competent by their long connexion with the
country to testify to the state of the populace and the proper
mode to set about dispensing relief to them. The em-
ployment of farmers and others who had no claim to be em.
ployed on the Government works might have been prevented in
this way, by the dismissal of the check clerks, wherever such a
class of persons were employed, because they had ample oppor-
tunities of knowing the position and condition of those who
were engaged. When he became a member of the relief com-
mittee in Leitrim, he considered that the 41. tenant test was
the proper one, as parties se rated were paupers, who were
unable to pay rates, and who were, therefore, fit subjects for
relief. From his experience, he found that this was
a fair pivot to tarn. Bat after the lists bad
been made out from the -rate-books in this way,
the Government called upon them to make it out accord-
ing to another plan; thus confusion bad been created, and
even np to that time no efficient list had been made out.
Many farmers who only rented four or five acres were net only
above want, but in a condition to assist their poorer neigh-
bours. Some had six head of cattle, one or two of which the)
had, perhaps, been compelled to part with, owing to the want
of turnips. It was, therefore, unfair for those persons who
possessed such a small number of acres, from which, by their
industry, they derived a epod living, to be called upon to contri-
bute towards the support of those who held more land, but who
were less industrious. Therefore, he said the Government
were not acting a beneficent part towards Ireland by giving
relief indiscriminately, and not protecting the industrious from
supporting the idle, some of whom held twenty acres, into
which they had never put a spade, yet they were now receiving
relief as destitute persons. They let the land in con-
acre, and lived out of the proceeds; but they continued in in-
dolenee and paid neither rates nor taxes ; in fact, the only
thing they would do was to labour at the public works, and tc
receive the public money. It was incumbent upon the Govern-
ment to put a stop to such a pernicious system as this.
In many parts of Leitrim the people had neglected to collect
manure, so that the land could not be expected to produce
crops, and therefore deficient harvests would continue so long
as they neglected the proper cultivation of the land. Tin
"rundale "
system was equally open to objection, and ought
to be grappled with at once. Even if the harvests were pro-
ficient there was not sufficient mechanical power in Ireland tc
manufacture the grain. He had visited one mill in which ht
found thirty persons waiting to have their corn ground, anc
so great was the s,uantity brought that the mill her.
to be kept at work during the night. He re-
gretted that the Government were disposed ti
encourage absenteeism, which had reduced the towns to a state
of pauperism, as the money realised out of the soil was spent
out of the country, a great portion of it being expended here.
so that Ireland, in a period of suffering, had a right
to receive subsidies from this country; in fact,
she was almost in a position to demand such aid
He had to lay upon the table of the House petitions from the•
farmers of the county of Leitrim, complaining that every ter
pound freeholder was obliged to go and attend in his place
as a juror on a summons from the sheriff. Now he considerec
it was most unfair that these men should have to attend while
the absentees were never even called upon. There was an-
other point to which he would wish to refer—it was to the con
duct of the bailiffs and agents upon estates. It was considerer
a very hard thing of him (Lord Clements) when.
in his capacity of a Magistrate, he declined to gc
into a great many cases for the burning of lan,
—which they were all aware was a very grave offence—
but he had heard that the money did not go into the landlord',
or the agent's pocket, but into that of the bailiff, who, whet,
he found- that he could no longer receive the fees upon these
cases himself, but would have to return an account of them.
never troubled the Bench any more. He did say that th
time was corns when they should oblige the absentee landlord.
to look after their property, and that the time was also come
when they should endeavour to form a home market
as it was utterly impossible that a country should be purel
agricultural without meeting such reverses as the present. He
lived in what he believed to be the very poorest district in Ire-
land, e here he had been toiling day and night to benefit the
condition of the poor.—( Hear, hear.) He had received a let-
ter from his steward no later than on last Wednesday, whiel
infermeed him that, in one day, no fewer than 175 person:
came to his farm-yard to purchase turnips, man)
of them coming a great distance to obtain ever
so small a quantity as two stones, and non,
above a hundred weight, and they said that when the trot
was exhausted, they did not know where to go to obtain
food. He was a little surprised at the answer which had beer
given by the Hon. Member for Donegal, with respect to the
depots, along the western coast, he was happy, however, tt.
hear, that they were about to put these depots into operation
He should tell the Government that it would be n,0,1
important to form inland depots. There was another point
to which he woul I wish to draw attention; the greater portion
of the people resident in the district from which he cam.•
mainly depended on the sale of their pigs. On January th.
14th, he was informed by a person on whom he placed implici
confidence, and who was in the habit of spending from fourtee:
hundred to fifteen hundred pounds on pigs alone, on Januar
14th he was not able to purchase one, and in the market of
that district to which he had alluded tha fair was generally wet
attended, but last month there were only nine pig•
in the whole fair. Indeed, so defective had the supplies Iron
Ireland become, that the merchants and manufacturers wen
obliged to use American beef, although they had a string
disinclination to its use. In fact, the country—the lan,
itself—had become greatly impoverished. This trust
to a t
poowunulda
s n d,
an not
acre, upon
aod
was forced upon him when he Was walking over the
country to sea where public works should le
been
orneecnecoesdtloed to pay,ohechanced to g
hi-
noble parent's estate, where the people told him that they had
three oro four
which he himself would have given that price at a former time
but for which he would be very sorry to
give ten shillings at
acre now. He wished the Government would d •
devise measure,
either to compel the landholders to cultivate the lan;
themselves, or let somebody else do it.--(Hear, hear.
In his opinion, if there was to be any enactment to give out-
door relief it was not necessary, unless they wished more
particularly, not utterly to ruin Ireland, but this country also.
He said, and said most solemnly, that there was no life on earth
to him more painful than living among the unfortunate p •
lotion of Ireland. He had, since he had left his duties iPu
n°-"tht
House, been amongst them almost without intermission. lit
had, during the last ten years, done all that could be done 1n
a man to endeavour to assist these poor people.—( Hear, hear.)
He confessed that he was disecuraged and heart broken a
seeing, after so many years of toil and labour, such small re
sults as he had experienced. He seriously implored the Houo
to take into consideration, as he was sure he had every reuses
to hope that they would do, from the kind manner in whicl
the debate had hitherto been =ducted— the state o
the country—and to avoid making any further false steps
Let them determine what should be the pivot on which the ad-
ministration of that relief should turn; let them show the lint
of demarcation, or else they could not expect any private o.
public benefit either to the country or to individuals, and they,
would always be the same abuses and distress.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that his Noble Friend who had
'test resumed his seat had blamed very severely the conduct co
her Majesty's Government with regard to the Labour-rate Act.
There was that in the observations of his Noble Friend which
grieved him, and also that which, he must confesss entirely re-
moved from his mind any weight
er unpleasant feeling which
the other arguments of the Noble Lord against the Labour-rats
Bill and her Majesty's Government might have produced
His Noble Friend had told the House that there
judgment, was no public
this Bill which, in his
work executed under
was
not a permanent public Bill. He (Mr. Labouchere) thought
that such an
observation ought ha erdly to be in the mouth o'
his Noble Friend, who, influenced by a sense of justice, ha:
been obliged to bear testimony in favour of the measure which
at present the object of his censure. Ile had heard th
was
declaration wit • h some surprise, for he believed that certainly
the evil effects that he attributed to this Bill and his loos,
condemnation of
the works executed under him, ha,.
been exaggerated by many Gentlemen who had ad-
dressed the Friend
House. His Noblehl stated that
the Chancellor of the Exchequer hadsweeping censure
passed a
e did
on the landlords of Ireland and their conduct. H
tent
understand his Right Hon. Friend at all to have
usedhe (Mr. ex-
pression,Leexpression of that description _
and any he should by DC
beuchere) was sure that if he had done so,
means have been prepared to concur in that statement. He
had had, during his official residence in_
observing
Ire-
land, but too many opportunities of obs
the conduct of the Irish landlords, many of whom he
the
saw
around him at that moment. He had remainedamongst
Irish during the last four months—months of the greatest
distress.country
were is that
distress. Gentlemen of the greatest distinction. _
e was
were the first in exerting themselvesH
to alleviate it.
well acquainted with many instances o popular spirit on
f thiswqua inted
the part of the Irish in general before he
vete charit on
with the instances of the exertion of p y
rthat the ithe part of the gentry of Ireland ;
he knew
sub-
scriptions from many of them had helped the Government in
•
its efforts for the public, under the distressing circumstances in
which they were placed. He thought that admission was quite
consistent with his saying, as truth bound him to say, that it
was to certain gentlemen of the county which, in their efforts
with the general
to meet the tremendous difficulties, coupled
spirit which pervaded all the gentry
.0f Ireland generally, the
Government was most materially indebted for assistance.
There were, however, many exceptions, and some of the relief
committees did net give her Majesty's Government or Parlia-
ment the support which they ought to do in many cases. He
did nut mean to say that these cases were of uncommon necur-
rence, for extraordinary effects were not to be expected from
ordinary persons ; but such services had been received from
certain noble, and from many
gentlemen, both distinguished and
persons for whom, as a Member of the Government, he felt a
lasting gratitude'
for the spirit and co-operation they
had afforded daring the last four months. He
rendered his thanks sincerely to the many noble and
distinguished rsons who held a front position
in the party always opposed to her Majesty's Government.
He could not forget Lord Farnham, and Lord Lauton, and
others, who had not hesitated to come forward to assist Govern-
ment in any measures proposed, forgetful of all party preju-
dices. He was happy to see that spirit of moderation prevail-
ing, without which they might pass and devise measures with-
out ever being able to extricate Ireland from the difficulties
which surrounded her. They had had already great difficulties
to contend with, and the more he looked into the matter the
more tremendous and overwhelming the difficulties he had yet
to overcome appeared.—( Hear, hear.) He did not state this
to decry the exertions which had been made, though he believed
they would be met and overcome by the energy and determined
spirit of the Legislature.—(llear, hear.) In the course
which the Government had already taken he had been sup-
ported—he was glad to say by Irishmen of all ranks and par-
ties—and whatever the present sufferings and distress might
be, he was persuaded that out of the evil good would arise—
( Hear, hear)—and that this would yet carry the country
through its present trials. But they would have an awful
struggle before thein.—(Hear, hear.) A good deal of the
discussion of the last two nights had been occupied with dis-
putes about the spirit in which Ireland should be treated.
Much had been said which he regretted, though at the
same time he thought that the very great majority ,

of the House bad treated the question under consideration in a
becomirg and proper spirit. He for one could not admit that
Ireland should come before them as a mendicant seeking alms
from England. That was not the footing on which he asked
assistance for the present alarming distress. It should be
granted not as alms, but as justice.—( Hear, hear.) Ireland
should be treated on the same principle as that which regu-
lates the affairs of a private family. When one member of
a family is afflicted with some great, or sudden, and tremendous
affliction, the other members of the family come forward to
affard relief.—( Hear, hear.) ' In the same way the Legislature
should come forward and assist the misfortunes and necessities
of Ireland.—(Cheers.) It was not his intention to trespass
on the House at any length to-night. as he thought the general
feeling of those present was favourable to the propositions of
the Government, and that they would allow the Bills to be
read a second time without further delay, reserving the discus-
sion of the details till in Committeeee—(Hear, hear.) If the
House would do so—if they would allow the Bills to be read a
second time, he would pledge himself that they should be
brought into Committee with as little delay as possible.
Let them recollect the importance of these measures. He
alluded particularly to the Temporary Distress Bill. It was
exceedingly important that that measure should be passed with-
out the loss of any time but what was absolutely necessary for
the fair discussion of the question.—( Hear, hear,) The House
appeared generally of opinion that whatever might be said of
the system of relief in operation at present, it was high time
that the works commenced under it should be brought to a
close, and another system introduced in its stead. If so, then time
was valuable in order to liberate the labourers for the cultivation
of the soil. He did not believe that much injury had been done
as yet, though some effects might have been produced—effects
that had been greatly exaggerated.—( Hear, hear.) The Go-
vernment hid thought it their duty to collect information on
this point, and they had caused a series of queries to be is-
sued in order to learn what the people of Ireland were about in
cultivating the soil and preparing for the next harvest. The
result of these queries showed that there was a much larger
breadth of land under wheat than in former years; and that
in the potato growing districts rye and beer had been substi-
tuted for that article to a considerable extent.—( Hear,
hear.) As yet little had been done towards preparing the
spring crops; yet, nevertheless, no irremediable injury had
been committed, and if the farmers had labourers now there
was yet ample time to make every preparation for the coming
harvest. He thought also that it must be obvious to the
House that they must persevere in the present system of public
works unless they would leave the people to starve, or
be prepared to substituto the other system. To delay the
present measure, therefore, would be perpetuating the
system which had been condemned, and interfere materially
with the necessary preparations of the land for the next year.
He threw out these suggestions for the consideration of the
House, in order that the Bill might be read a second time,
and then considered in Committee, thus preventing any
unnecessary delay. He had no right to complain of the tone
or temper in which the House had received these measures.
They had given the Government credit for having acted with
the best intentions, however mush they might diffee on the
policy pursued. Had it been otherwise, he should not have
complained, considering the extraordinary circumstances of
the case. But some Hon. Members. had expressed themselves
strongly against the policy of the Government in relation to
the importation and sale of food. He could assure such Hon.
Members that they had not acted as they did without mature
consideration ; and, so far from time and experience
having altered his opinion, on the contrary, he
believed, that had they followed the opposite course spoken of,
and imported provisions into Ireland, and established depots,
not on the coast alone, as they had done, but throughout the
interior of the country—if they had become importers as well
is distributors of food, they would have aggravated, in a most
painful degree, all the horrors of famine.—(Loud cries of
" Hear, hear.") Had it been practical, as asserted by that
course to have relieved distress, reduced prices, and saved
human life, he would not have objected to the infrac-
tion of the abstract doctrine of political economy ;
but because he believed that distress would have been much
aggravated, prices raised, and famine extended, he must ex-
press his decided opinion that the Government had pursued the
only proper course.—( Hear, hear.) They had also been
blamed because they had not sold the corn imported under cost
price. The reason they had not done to was, because of the
unfavourable influence such a step would have exercised over
the retail dealers in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) It would have
done serious injury to this important class—a class respecting
which, he believed, Ireland would not be safe until they were
greatly extended. In order to place Ireland in apraper condi-
don respecting distribution, they musthave village shops every-
where. It was with this view that they refused assistance to
those relief committees that would not act ueon the principles
which they laid down, which were that they should sell the pro -
'duce at a rate which would yield a fair profit. He was firmly
convinced that the Government had acted right in adhering to
what was called the abstract principles of political
economy, which were the principles of common sense.
( The Right Honourable Gentleman here read a letter from
the chairman of a relief committee in the county of West-
meath, showing that the most beneficial course had been to
charge the produce at the usual rates sought by private
dealers. The Right Honourable Gentleman continued by
stating that this was only a specimen of the general feeling in
Ireland of those who had experience respecting these matters.
The Government had considered that their best course was
to do nothing which would check or interfere with
the retail dealer.—( Hear, hear.) It was real huma-
nity and real wisdom for them to follow the dictates
of experience and common sense, which were also the doc-
trines of political economy. Complaint had also been wade
why the Government had not stopped distilling from grain in
Ireland. If distilling had been stopped in Ireland, there was
no reason why it should not have been stopped in Scotland
and England, the effect of which would have been to have
renewed smuggling to a very great extent, and enriched those
who had large stocks cf spirits on hand while those
who tad small quantities would have been seriously
injured.—( Hear, hear.) He believed no practical relief
would have been gained by such an arrangement. While on
his subject, he would refer to what had fallen from the Hen.
Member for Meath, who had represented a distillery in
Dublin as using large quantities of oats and other grain.
[a answer to that he was bound to state to the House that he
uad received a letter from that firm, which stated that ll
the grain which had been used had been imported from abroad.
Such a course would prevent many persons from obtaining
labour in distilleries, while they would not succeed in saving
say provisions. He was unwilling, on the present occasion, to
make many ob4erva•ions about what had been said with regard
the measures proposed by her Alajesty's Government for the
relief of Ireland. He felt that these measures were so im-
portant that they deserved a grave and general consideration,
tad they could not he discussed with advantage in the general
manner in which only they could be treated en the present
occasion. He would only observe that it was unjint to say of the
Government that it was characterised by a desire to enrich the
Irish landlords without considering the effect on the main body of
the people of Ireland. Let them consider what were the wants of
Ireland at the present moment. One of the greatest of her
wants was employment for her pepulatien, and he knew no
immediate way of providing employment enless by the agency
f the State. The Government had offered assistance to the
,andowners to enable them to employ the great body
of the people, and allowing that to be the
sound principle recognised by England, it could be
affected by loans to the landowners. It had been said that
these loans were not to be repaid. On the contrary, it would
be paid, and he would call the attention of those who doubted
the fact, that all loans previously advanced to the Irish land-
lords had usually been repaid. It was not only just to the
country, but to the Imperial Treasury. The circum-
stances under which the present loan was proposed were
if the greatest consequence. It was impossible not to see how
:weeping had been the calamity, the destruction of food, and
what millions now lived on the surface of the soil of Ireland
without the prospect of sufficient food for their subsistence, as
well as at once to see of what consequence it was to give every
stimulus, by legitimate and particular means, to the productive.
ness of the soil of Ireland. The project of draining the waste
lands must be a means of producing a great increase in the
crops. It was necessary to carry this principle into effect, and
it would be for them to decide in what manner when the de-
'ails of the Bill should be laid before them. He did not know
chat he need tresspass env further in addressing the House,
except to say that he felt the greatest gratifieat iota at the tem-
perate spirit in which the House had treated the most import-
ant measure now submitted to their consideration and delibera-
tion. He agreed that that spirit was of the greatest benefit
to Ireland. The spirit evinced by the House on that occasion
was of equal importance to Ireland as the measures themselves.
—( Hear, hear.) He could not help hoping that it would be of
benefit to that country, when he saw that the spirit of union
and energy were spreading themselves, and a spirit of mode-
ration rising up, from which they might expect the best con-
sequences. He was sure that the English nation was only
anxious to supply the wants and wishes of the Irish people;
and as long as they pursued the temperate and tolerant course
which had made its appearance, they should not have to com-
plain of the Parliament or the people of England—either
would be ready to do for her all that she could natured}, ex-
pect.—( Cheers.)
Sir R. PEEL said, Sir I concur with the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman that it will be much more advantageous to discuss the
measures intended to effect a permanent improvement in the
condition of society in Ireland when we shall be put in posses-
sion of the details of the measure, more than by the present
Bill, and enabled to enter into a debate upon it. At the same
time, lam not surprised that those gentlemen connected with
Ireland, after the scenes they have witnessed, and after the
struggles and didiculties they have felt, feel, as they must ,to,
deeply interested in the welfare of their native coun-
try, and deeply sympathise with those suffering
from the terrible effects of the calamity with which it is
afflicted. lam not surprised that they should feel themselves
anxious, at the earliest opportunity, to submit their views with
respect to the operation of measures of this important nature to
this House. I for one not having this motive for entering upon
a dismission which they have, feel that it is of
much importance that we should proceed at once
to discuss those measures intended to reach the difficulties
which threatened them. At the present time I am unwilling
to oppose any delay in the way of any measure you might be
prepared to grant ; but as I think that you are entitled to frame a
full and complete liberty to her Majesty's Government from the
responsibility of the course which they are pursuing, it may be
advantageous at once to decide that the Bill which grants
that indemnity, and which Parliament seems willing to
accede, should be prefaced by a full explanation
of the circumstances under which this responsibility
has been assumed by the Government.—( Hear, hear.)
You may entirely approve of the assumption of that responsi-
bility, yet still, when the executive Government, however
justifiably it may be, undertakes to supersede the ordinary ope-
ration of the law, I doubt whether it is not for the public ad-
vantage that all the circumstances connected with that assump-
tion of power by the Executive should be fully stated. I ad-
vise Hon. Gentlemen to consider whether, in taking the liberal
power, they should not explain the circumstances under which
the ordinary law is superseded, and whether it will not
be for the advantage of those who may hereafter refer to this
assumption of power—that the indemnity granted by Parlia-
ment should be placed in the preamble. or appendix to the
Bill, and to set forth the particular letter read by the Noble
Lord. I am prepared to vote at once for this Bill, giving an
indemnity to the Government. With respect to the details of
the Bill, and as it is intended to make a total alteration of
the system under which relief is now granted. I also
at once give my consent to it. I think the
evil of the present system very great, and I think
that the sooner you apply the remedy the better. I cannot
help thinking that there is great danger considering how
nearly we approach that period when the peasantry should
not be employed in labouring at productive works. So fir
as concerns the harvest of next year it will enable the
Government to make a material alteration in the pre-
Sent system by permitting labour to be applied to
the cultivation of the soil.—(Hear, hear.) There are
scarcely two months when, without reference to
spring corn, labour ought to be most actively employed.
I know that labour is sometimes net applied in Ireland, partly
from the condition of the soil, and partly from the superior
moistness of the climate. The sooner, however, that you
make an alteration in the present system with regard to the e
cultivation of the soil, the better it will be for the country. I
am rather surprised that the Right Hon. Gentlemen underrates
the danger arising from toe application of labour to public
works. Did nut the Right Hon. Gentleman remember that,
in August last, he resisted the operations of the late Govern-
ment, and said when only between 60,000 and 70,000 were
employed on the public works, that great inconvenience arose,
from the labour being diverted into the ordinary channels.
How much more must that inconvenience be now?
thought that the conduct of the Irish landlords sdeserve
praise; and the active .POIWITICIICO of the ladies has etil I