The Sun.
London, England, 1841-05-11 00:00:00

MO7tNINC, EDITION

According t the statements of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, the President of the Beard of Trade, when bring-
lam forward I i Rum Bill, the quantity of sugar grown in
the East India colonies would increasa very consider-
ably ; but, even admitting that no increase took place,
there would be an ample supply at a price which could
no,: be complained of. The House had to choose between
cheaper sugar—cheaper by some infinitessimal fraction of
a farthing per 1b.,, by grinding down the unhappy slaves
on the soil of Cuba and the Brazils, or to extend a fair
proportion of protection to their West India colonies.
That was the proposition Ministers had ventured to sub-
mit to a British House of Commons ; but, thank God,
there was public spirit and humanity enough in that
House to reject such monstrous propositions.—(Hear,
hear.) Mr. DeaCon Hume, in his remarks upon that
subject, said he could not conceive, after the vast expen-
diture which the British Government had made for the

abolition of slavery, that they would ever entertain any
question of placing the produce of free labour in Jamaica
in competition with the slave-grown sugar of Cuba and
the Brazils. He could not for a moment entertain so
absurd a proposition as the bringing forward such mea-
sures as these, under the plea of an encouragement of
free trade. He thought the great object of these manu-
facturers of Lancashire and Sheffield, and other places,
was to keep the good markets they had got. Now,
the Brazils took. from them 2.600,0001. instead of
5,000,0001. as .had been most erroneously stated by the
Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
On the other hand, they had the East Indies taking from
them five millions of their manufactures, the West Indies
taking four millions, and the North American Colonies
taking three millions, and the Right Hon. Gentleman
would sacrifice all these for the trade of the Brazils.—
(Hear, hear.) He denied, even if the proposed measure
was passed, that there would be any increase of their trade
with the Brazils. That, at all events, was an uncertain
increase, while their present markets with their own colo-
nies was certain and progressive. What was the state of
progress of the exports to these places. The increase to
the Brazils during the last ten years had been only 8 per
cent. ; to the North American Colonies, in the same
period, it was 64 per cent—(Hear, hear)—to British
India, it was 84 per cent., to the West Indies, it was
was 40 per cent. To foreign countries generally it was
35 per cent., and to their own colonies it was 61 per
cent.—(Hear, hear.) What was the natural inference ?
Why, that while they should endeavour to maintain
their markets with foreign countries, they should more
especially take care of their trade with their own colo-
nies. He believed the present was the first time that in
that House commercial questions had been made the
subject of party warfare.—(Ministerial cheers.) His
(Mr. Colquhoun's) side of the House had been charged
with being influenced by factious motives, but what he
thought was a factious proceeding, was when a Ministry
had been ten years in office without ever having brought
forward any measures based upon the principles of free
trade ; when they found their energies paralysed, when
they found themselves unable to carry any measure,
when they had only to take up a question to damage
and injure • it—at such a time it was in
his judgment nothing but faction and absurdity to throw
up their caps.in favour of free trade.—(Loud cheers.) On
• these grounds he should give his hearty concurrence to
the motion of his Noble Friend the Member for Liver-
pool.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. R. H. GREY had heard the announcement made
by her Majesty's , Government with very great pleasure.
It was one fraught with the greatest benefit to the manu-
facturing interests, .which . it was neetlless for him to re-
saind the House was at present in a most depressed state.
—(Loud cheers.) He had hoped that the very
itiageitude of these - measures would have secured
them the approval of all parties ; that, considering
they had a falling revenue, and that it was not
proposed to lay , on any additional taxes, that the
comforts of the poorer classes would be increased, and that
trade would have been improved. Taking all these ad-
vantages into consideration, he thought it would have
eneirel v conciliated public favour. Ile had hoped that
even. tile monopolists themselves, however careless they
might be of the interests of the public at large, would
nevertheless have given a tacit consent to the measure.
But it now appeared that the interests of party were for
the present to prevail—that the interests of the few were
r prevail over the many, and the interests of a class
ever that of the public at large. He would remind the
House of the efforts which the Noble Lord (J. Russell)
had for so many vainly made to obtain representatives
for Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, and other large
towns: but when the Noble Lord brought forward a much
more ea-eeping measure of Reform it was carried,' and
was at present the law of the land.—(Hear, hear.)
He was inclined to hope, therefore, notwithstanding
the opposition the present proposition received, that it
',mould eventually, with many other commercial re-
forms, receive the sanction of that House.—(Hear.)
With respect to the fears entertained relative to the in-
troduction of foreign sugars, he could tell the House
that, during the ten years which elapsed from 1925 to
1835, we were unable to have one pound of Brazilian
Auger imported into this country. So much for the idle
tetra entertained about East and West India sonar.
During the last five years, the price of sugar had been
most enormously high ; and, taking the average of
duties, the price of Brazil sugar would have been lower
by ss. Gd. He must say that the Sugar-laws were more
reasonable than the Corn-laws. A great scarcity of
?eager often occurred ; but, however great it might be, it
was only reasonable, at all events, when the existing
sugar plantations in the East and West Indies could not
produce within a large amount of the quantity required,
that the people of England ought to be protected against
to et scarcity. It was asked how would the Chan-
sna
,r of the Exchequer make up his revenue in
That lose ? He answer, that if the East and West
Indies eupplied abundance of sugar, the revenue
would Lq derived from the great quantity of sugar
at the dots* nsf 245. per cwt. Whereas, if a scarcity
usplace, the
exec
eThancellor of the Exchequer would de-
rive his revenue eon the foreign sugar at 365. per cwt.
Under all circurnseances of the case, lie (Mr. G.)
thought that a more reasonable proposition could not be
made than that of the Government. It had been said
that the poor and labouring portions of the population
of this country would be more content with a dinner of
herbs than with the meat of a stalled ox. It was very
well for those who dined every day on a stalled ox to
talk in that way : but would the great masses of the la-
bouring population .of England submit to their being
deprived of what was a necessary of life. The question
on the sugar Duties was not one of a penny more or less
in the price of llb. of that article ; it was a question of. the
absolute denial of a necessary of life. He could not
see the necessity of passing a law prohibiting
sine-tenths of the people of England from using what
Naas now become a necessary of life, and any law tending
to raise the price of sugar would have that effect. de
would not, on the present occasion, enter into any details
respecting the subject of the Corn-laws ; but he wished
to make a remark or two on the necessary connection of
she two subjects—the Corn-laws and the sugar duties.
Ile thought they ought not to be totally separated.
The ability to consume luxuries depended not
so much on the price of the luxuries as
upon the ability of the people to provide themselves
with the necessaries of life ; therefore the two questions
nnere most intimately connected.' He was gong of
anehlion that there was no other means of benefiting the
masses of the people of this country, and at the
same time of securing the required revenue of fifty mil-
lions, en. iess by providing the people with an ampre sup-
ply of the necessaries of life. All other measures which
did not inclisde that within their compass must end in
failure and it;aappointment.—(Ministerial cheers.) It
nhould be remeinnered that the proportion in which the
Labouring classes consumed the necessaries and luxuries
of life was something of this kind—a family earning from
10s. to 12s. per week expended about Is. on sugar, tea,
and coffee, whilst two-thirds of the entire expense of the
family was in _food,. the necessaries of life alone. If that
quantity of food were not increased, no individual could
,have a larger l ortion of it, nor could his condition be bet-
s rod. Suppose tiara were ever so great a demand for la-
bour he coual ran see how it could be made available
for. the purposes of taxation, and for this reason, while
the quantity of food was limited, whilst the quantity of
.food was insufficient for the wants of the people, every
individual would bring his double wages, and try to get
;for them a fair part of that limited quantity ; and tutus
time effect would. be to increase the price of food, and if
ail went for feed, how was the Treasury to be increased ?
The income of the landlords would be increased, but the
treasury of the State would be very little swelled. An
. ample supply of the necessaries of life could only be se-
cured to the people, by increasing the surface of the
tam from which food was . produced. He hoped he
avesuld have a future opportunity of going more fully into
tin 4
question. There could be no doubt that the taxa-
tion of fifty millions a year was very high, butt it should
be raised some way or other. Manufacturers stave a
class of persons who were in a very suffering condi-
tion, by reason of the competition to which they
were exposed,
and
.he (Mr. G.) knew of no
•
weans of improving theircondition but some such
measure as the Noble Lord had introduced. The only
Way of making taxation available to the country—of se-
curing a revenue, was to extend the base's of our opera-
tions. That would increase our general commercial
.prc(snerity, so wino enable the country to support that
trhiciu was now a severe burden—the greatly-increased
neopulaiion—in a way which would be consistent with the •
welfare of the country.
Mr. WALTER said, in giving his vote on the present
important quastion, he wished to make a few observa-
tions. He had voted against that most extraordinary
grant of twenty millions sterling for the abolition of
West Indian slavery on other grounds, as well as because
he thought that sunicient inquiry into the subject had
not been made at the time. Considering the degree to
which . sugar in the market had been since that
time affected, that sum fell very far short of
the sums taken from the pockets of the British
people. Between fifteen anei twenty millions more had
been expended in attempting to put down the slave-trade,
which was at the present time more flourishing than
heretofore. It had been calculated also the total sum
fawn from the country since the abolition, owing to the
assistance on West . India produce, and
other causes, was
Yenta little short of five millions.- After so much ivas
.done for our fellow-creatures of a dark complexion in our
,-,();011,111 possessions to have them raised to a state of com-
fort. he asked what had resulted from it to the labouring
classes at home, both commercial and agricultural? Was
their condition improved ? On the contrary, were they
not rendered less capable of obtaining the nee ;cries
of
life, one of which was sugar ? He (Mr. Walter) wean'
at least hope that a little of that feeling which had been
exhibited in favour of the negro would be extended to
our own poor. The Government, it appeared, had an idea
that by the sch eme they proposed, they would lower
the price of the avmmodtties, and increase the revenue.
He doubted the poneibility of that. In other cases he
thought it most deshmble, and he would concur in such ;
but he had conversed with most intelligent merchants on
the subj( ca who were as anxious as atinisters to re ieve
trade from all shaeklase and he found they had not the
slightest confidence in the financial measures proposed,
particularly with refer( nee to the diminution of the

duties on foreign sugar. It was proposed to lay on no
h:gh3r a duty than 12s. per cwt. beyond what was Un-
posed on sugar from our own colonies. That, he was
told, was no protection at all, on account of the greater
quantity of saccharine matter produced in foreign coun-
tries than in our colonies. There were other grounds
on which he objected to the proposed scheme. He
thought, if the finances of the country had been pro-
perly managed, there would have been no need of the al-
terations ; and he was satisfied of the incompetency of
those who produced the mischief to remedy it.—
(Hear, hear.) Without proposing to alter the Corn-laws.
he must confess himself to be favourable to some
change in them, although the amount of duty he was
disposed to support would depend on what was done with
the present Poor-law Bill. A Noble Lord (Darlington)
the other night was so kind as to speak in terms of high
approbation of a contest in which he (Mr. W.) was
personally concerned, and thought that the result of that
contest might have influenced Ministers in the course
they had adopted. Whether such was the case or not,
it did not become him to say ; but of this he was cer-
tain, that the issue of that election, and the consideration
of the principles which decided it, ought to influence
Hon. Members on both sides of the House. _ _

Lord F. EGERTON, the commencement of whose
observations were not audible in the gallery, was under-
stood to say, that he had listened to the able speech of
the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies
with that attention with which he always did,
and to the speech of the Right Honourable
Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and
it appeared to him that the subject they introduced was
classified by them under the head of " deficiency in the
revenue," which they proposed to make up and relieve
the consumers of this country by lowering the price of
the commodity named. With respect to the first of
those he confessed that it was a question that would
puzzle a more expert financier than himself to deal with.
He would not, therefore, trouble the House with
that part of the subject. It was true that the Noble Lord
said that there was an alarming and painful deficiency,
but that had arisen from causes over which they had no
control, but had arisen from causes in which they (the
Opposition) had participated as largely as themselves
(the Ministers). All the extra expenses which had been
incurred was supported by the other side of the
House. That was, after all, a mere accusation.
When certain emergencies occurred, involving the
honour and commercial existence of this country,
they (the Opposition) did not oppose measures
proposed for their remedy. Canada, they were told, was
a subject of expense originating in causes which were
brought into existence fifty years ago. He (Lord F.
Egerton) thought that some of the discontents and diffi-
culties originated in the conduct of those from whom the
Noble Lord sought his best support. With respect to
China, he considered it an open subject for any discus-
sion that might affect the conduct of Ministers. With
respect to the second division of the subject—relief to the
consumers of this country—it was a question of higher
interest than any other consideration. When the Noble
Lord brought the subject before the House, he (Lord F.
Egerton) thought that he devoted more energy to the
topics than he generally did. The Noble Lord drew a
picture of the operative turning away in disappointment
and despair at the excessively high price of the commo-
dity. It was not the business of the Noble Lord to de-
bate the question as he had debated it—to call the atten-
tion of the House to the more cheering prospect of the
supply of sugar for the next season—but it was his busi-
ness to show, with his usual ability, the prac-
tical and appreciable relief that would result
from the measure which he proposed.(Hear.)
So far as he could calculate, the reduction in the price of
sugar, which would follow from the proposed measure,
would not amount to more than six-tenths of a farthing
in the pound, which would not make the average reduc-
tion for each individual in the kingdom amount to more
than 2id. per year. He did not undervalue that reduc-
tion, provided the measure by which it was to be effected
were not liable to other grave, and as he (Lor F. Eger-
ton) considered insurmountable objections. The Noble
Lord, the Secretary for the Colonies, attempted to de-
prive every Member on that (the Opposition) side of the
House, with the exception of the Noble Lord the Mem-
ber for for North Lancashire, of any right to advocate
the cause of the enslaved negroes. Now for his (Lord
F. Egerton's) part, he had not, like the Right Hon.
Gentleman, the Member for the Tower Hamlets, grown
grey in that cause, but he knew no reason why he
should be deprived of his right to read the work of Mr.
Gurney, and to draw from it his own conclusions. It
appeared to him that it had been made out almost to
demonstration, that the Noble Lord was now taking a
course which, as far as regarded the article under con-
sideration, would positively give not merely a stimulus to
the employment of slaves, but would give a stimules to that
worst feature of the case the traffic in slavery in the co-
lonies, which would not only give a bonus to Cuba itself,
that plague spot of the world, the centre and the focus
of the trade, but extend that worst of all crimes ever com-
mitted by man. It was impossible, in his opinion, for
those who had paid the least attention to that great sub-
ject, which it was impossible and which it would be
indefensible to overlook, not to see that the proposed
measure would aggravate an evil already so great. A
great difference of opinion had certainly been expressed
in that House on that subject. The Hon. Member for
Wigan and the Hon. Member for London, however, had
that night treated the question with the seriousness
which it deserved, and had expressed their sentiments,
founded on philosophical principles of their own, that the
cause of humanity to the slave and ultimate suppression of
the slave-trade, would be advanced by the measure which
the Noble Lord had proposed, by an extension of com-
mercial intercourse in those commodities which are the
production, of that slave-trade. He could not follow those
deductions, and he could not assent to those propositions.
He should admit, however, that the subject was treated
by them with ability, and in that tone which became the
discussion of such a question. He was somewhat sur-
prised on a former occasion to have been compelled to
consider that it had been treated in a tone of levity by
the Hon. Member for Lambeth—(Hear, hear)—which he
(Lord F. Egerton) thought unsuitable to the occasion..
The Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies had re-
cently entered into a dissertation on the state of the repre-
sentation of the metropolitan boroughs, and had uttered
some very strong opinions on the results of that portion of
the Reform Bill which had given representatives to these
boroughs. It was not for him (Lord F. Egerton) to deal out
any criticism on that subject, but he should say that the
complaint then made by the Noble Lord was at least a
strange and anomalous one. The Hon. Member for Lam-
beth gave it as his opinion that the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Mewls r for the Tower Hamlets, might perhaps main-
tain that slavery was in itself sinful, and that it ought not
be encouraged ; no very unreasonable proposition cer-
tainly, and no very extravagant one for the Right Hon.
Member for the Tower Hamlets to maintain—(Hear,
hear)—but the Honourable Member for Lambeth
said that •that was a principle which all bigots
might appeal to for enforcing their own opi-
nions. They might call upon the House to pass
Acts of uniformity, for the purpose of settling
matters of faith and ceremonials ' • and on the same ground
the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the Tower
Hamlets might come forward with enactments to en-
force the suppression of the slave trade. Now it was
not necessary for him (Lord F. Egerton) to enter into
any defence of the Right Hon. Gentleman, but he might
be allowed to say that the attempt would be superflous,
as he had never beard a vindication more able and more
complete than that which the Right Hon. Gentleman had
himself made.—(Hear, hear.) He would ask whether it
was a false, a fictitious, and spurious humanity which
made them shrink and hesitate before they interfered in
what he should consider a most critical moment for
that great experiment—a moment when they might hope
that in the West Indies the throes of parturition were
over, and that the time had come when they might bless
Providence for the success which had attended their efforts?
It was not a want of philanthropy which induced them to
pause before adopting a course which might fatally interfere
with those results. The Noble Lord the Secretary for
the Colonies no doubt was at present actively employed
in endeavouring, as far as the resources of diplomacy
enabled him, to check, in other quarters of the world, a
similar traffic - to that of the African slave-trade. He
had no doubt but the Noble Lord, for instance, was using
his influence with the Sultan, and that good-humoured
old gentleman who governed Egypt, to effect a cessation,
or at- least a mitigation, and, ultimately, the extir-
pation of a system which prevailed in Africa, and
across the Atlantic Ocean. They had heard, the
other day, from a distinguished public officer who
had been employed on the coast of Syria, that,
in a conversation with the Pacha, the latter stated
that he hated the slave trade, hut that he wished
to get time for its abolition—that he could not do
these things in a hurry. The example of Eng-
land was doubtless quoted to him and made its due im-
pression. But the PaAla was acquainted with the affairs
of England, and he would soon be enabled to say, if the
Noble Lord's measure were carried by a majority of that
House, that though England had emancipated her siteeo
at a great national expense, and had thus given a bril-
liant example to the rest of Europe, that when difficulties
overtook her she had, for the sake of a reduction of six-
tenths of a farthing on the pound of sugar, abandoned
the great experiment they had made.—(Hear, hear.)
Let them pass that measure, and they would lose that el@
vated station which they held in the Courts of Europe—
let them pass that measure, and they would descend from
the high ground which they held in Egypt and in Con-
stantinople—let them pass that measure, and for hu-
manity and consistency he believed they would do well
to go much fart; er. He should say that what he iirei
heard from the Hon. Member for London induced him to
form conclusions very different from those to which the
Hon. Gentleman himself came, for he thought his state-
ment showed that it would be more humane to allow
their slave vessels to issue once more from Liverpool
under proper restrictions and with Government insist'tors, if they willed, and to legitimize the traffic, than to give
to it in its present illegal form the encouragement
which would be the result of the proposal of her Ma-
jesty's Ministers. The West Indians too might call
upon them, in removing all restrictions., tip remove the
restriction imposed upon them of not empliryina. Slave
labour. They might tell them that when they vifortrod
! them to compete with Cuba they would be ready to do
that they would ha ready to contend with the
fertility of the soil of that silstittl, which need only be
PAP. while their own
term
yur of fifty
years----‘4 that it 'is ould
-
renewed after arfetnerewaed
be fair in the first place to place them ssa 0,4 #o!..i.g
Ifooting with their competitors. They had lately collected
the rank and the talent of the country in Exeter Hall, and
' had brought the first subject in the realm to head the pha-
lanx for the purpose of discountenancing the slave trade,
and they could not now abandon the cause which they
had advocated. They had given the name of the Prince
gracefully and properly to that vessel which they had
equipped for its mission of mercy—
God and the good angels guide her as she goes.
For not of conquest greedy or of gain
Seeks she distant worlds ;
but he should say they would do well to abandon the en-
terprise if they acceded to the measure then under their
consideration. It was for these reasons, thinking as he