The Sun.
London, England, 1824-05-12 00:00:00

NEGRO SLAVERY,

Sir M. W. RIDEEi presented a Petition from Newcastle,
agitinst Negro Slavery; and for the extension of the measures
of Government to all the Colonies. He was sorry to dissent
from so reany of his constituents, but he thought they would
beet promote the interest of those whose cause they advocated,
by leaving the subject in the bands of his Majesty's Govern-
ment, for further discussion of it at present, would, he thought,.
be most mischievous.
The Honourable Baronet presented a similar petition from
Alawiek, a petition from Newcastle against the Beer bill, and
-a petition from Bridport in favour of it.
Bit. C[IRWEN presented a petition from Cumberland
against Negro •Slavery ; another from Cockermouth ngeinst
the Hides and Skins Bill; and another from the Bankers and
-others of Cockermouth; praying that they might act as Notaries
Public.
Mr. LA WLEY
_presented a petition from Birmingham,
• against the Beer Bill.
Mr. BAGWELL presented a petition from Clogheen against
- any alteration in the Corn Laws.
Colonel O'NEILL presentfid a petition from Antrim against
'the repeal of the Linen Bounties.
Lord BINNING presented a petition from several Officers
of the Court of Session in Scotland against the Stamp Duties.
Mr. S. RICE presented a petition from Tipperary against
the Tithe Bill of the last Session, and praying that it might be
altered. lie was happy to say he thought there appeared a die-
position on the part of Government to make the necessary al-
terations.
Captain BRUCE presented a petition from Alio& against
Negro Slavery.:
Mr. iticF, presented a petition from
W Carmarthen praying
for the Repeal of the indow Tax.
AIL JONES presented a similar petition also from Car-
,:extart>.en.
Mr. B. WILBRAHAM presented a petition from Dover in
-favour of the Hides and Skins Bill.
The above petitions were ordered to lie on the table.
'
OUTRAGES IN IRELAND.
Mr..JOI SMITH presented a petition from an indivi-
'dual named "Maccartet, complaining of injuries. which he (Mr..
S.) thought could be committed no where but in Span or Ire.
land. In 1.1322 his cottage was broken open you forty
Mtn
ruffians and burnt, and 'he, his brother, his wife and chi
-severely cut and otherwise wounded. The affair was taken up
the Magistrates, and several individuals were apprehended ;
lent although the offence was 'a capital felony they were ad-
mitted to bail, and subsequently brought to trial and acquitted.
'Three of them afterwards applied to him for certain costs un-
der the indictment, and distrained a cow for their payment.—
die was lihnseKshortly afterwards accused of an assault on se-
veral of these persons, was convicted, and sentenced to six
emontlis imprisonment. The prayer of the Petition was some-
what informal, as it asked the House to call for the notes of
die Judge who tried the cause. In cases finm Ireland, Mr. Smith
observed, it wag Moult to ascertain the facts, as there were
enerally many xeneradietione between the different parties.
But he 'had, in the present instance,•rnade inquiries which led
,• him to believe that the facts were correct; and that the peti-
',toner's sufferings were attributable to political circumstances.

—But there was always more tranquility where there were no'
political- societies whatever.
A.Aember, whose name we could not ascertain, spoke in de-
fence of the conduct of the Judge. He defended the Orange
Societies, and thought a Protestant and an Orangeman_ were
the same thin.—(Hear, and a laugh.)
Lord MILTON begged to defend the great body of the Irish
Protestants against the charge brought against thenahy the
Honourable Gentleman. It was a charge that they belonged
to associations of a seditious nature,. which ought to be put
down; and which the Government had declared ought to be
discouraged.
Mr. Secretary CANNING thought the Noble Lord had
misunderstood the Honourable Gentleman. He (Mr. C.) did
not undertand the Honourable Gentleman to speak in con-
demnation of those Protestants Aim did not belong to Orange
Societies.
Mr. GOVLBURN also thought the Noble Lord had mis,
understood the Hon. Gentleman. With regard to the particu-
lar ease mentioned in the Petition, he had heard some of the
,circumstances; but he had not heard of the trials, though he
,had no doubt they were properly conducted.
Mr.. PLUNKETT said, the circumstances had been laid
before him, and he had directed an inquiry, the result of
which: was that-the parties were prosecuted at the expence of
the Government. In their defence before the Magistrates,
they alleged that the Petitioner had committed the first oat-
-rage against them ; but on their trial they offered evidence of
an alibi. The Hon. Member must certainly have been mis-
informed as to the costs. It was impossible that they could
have been chargeable to the Petitioner. He did not think the
circumstances sufficiently strong to warrant ti proceeding
against the Magistrates, though he did not,entirely approve of
their conduct. _ _ _ _ _

The petition was ordered" to lie on the table.
Mr. J. SMITH did not think the Irish Government had
'done all in their 'wer to puni3:l the perpetrators of these out.

Tatress
Mr.'DOHERTY denied that there was the least foundation
for a slur upon the.administration of justice in Ireland. He
never, in a professional experience of 17 years, knew of. a po-
litical distinction being made on the Bench.---alear !)
Mr. FITZGE:RALD said, the statement ".made by the At-
torney-General for Ireland afforded an additional argument for
the putting down of political societies. It appeared that the
prisoners had first admitted and justified the charge, and after-
wards had suceessfullyiwt up an alibi: He denied that the
Hon. Member who prMated the petition had said a syllable
in the way of imputation on the adtninistration of justice in Ire-
land. For his part be would say, that althriugh he admired the
institution of !trial by Jury, he would rather, in a case wherein
religious hostility was involved, intrust his life to a Judge than
to a Jury.
Mr. DOHERTY explained. •
Mr. Secretary PEEL trusted-the ;petition -would not be
printed, until there was time to make inquiry into the facts of
the case. He did not, however, see what other coarse could
have been taken by the' Irish overnment to promote justice,
than that which they had taken.
Mr. GRATTAN Raid he feared it was too true that there
were party Juries in Ireland.
Mr. J. SMITH explained.
Mr. CALCRAFT thought the case was one which called
for inquiry.
The motion for printing the petition was then withdrawn.
CAVAN ELECTION.
Mr. ABERCRO3IBY presented a petition from several'
Freeholders of Cavan, complaining that the freedom of election
had been violated during the late election for the county. The
Sheriff, it was said, had notified the election by a placard,
Which had a figure of King William on horseback, and other
Orange insignia at the head. They said also, that the place of
election was surrounded by Orangemen ; that the . voters of the
unsuccessful candidate were insulted, and compelled to apply li
even to their Sheriff for protection A man's life was lost
in the struggle, and a speech was offered to the people by
one of the Magistrates to' the Orangemen, saying that " they
were a legalized constitutional body." This was not the first
provocation which the Petitioners had received on similar
occasions. On a former one, a County Meeting to address
the Lord Lieutenant, the Orangemen so conducted them-
selves that the then Sheriff was obliged to dissolve the meet-
ing. The Petitioners prayed that the Sheriff might be called
to account for his conduct; and that they might be protected
in the enjoyment of such rights as the Constitution allowed
them. He (Mr. A.) wished to know how many persons were
on the panel of the Jury, which became necessary in conse-
quence- of the loss of' life to which he had alluded ; how
many of those were Catluelics, and how many _ Protestants ;
how many of each were sworn ; and whether those who were
sworn were persons whose names were originally on the
panel. In conclusion, he observed, that he was not for put-
ting down any Society merely on grounds relative to political
or religious opinion, but solely on account of their conduct.
31r. MAXWELL, as Member for the county of Cavan,
produced a copy of the only paper which was sanctioned by the
Sheriff at the klection. It was a paper with only the Royal
Arms at the head.—(Hear 1)—Ile had, on the Hustings, and
afterwards by public letter, disapproved and disavowed the
offensive publication alluded to by the Hon. and laearn'ed Geri"-
tleman. He (31r. M.) regretted that a life had been' 'lost ion
the occasion, and he particularly regretted that the offender had
never been discovered. The man who was tried on the charge
of being the murderer, offered such satisfactory evidence in
his defence, that even the Counsel for the prosecution ad-
mitted that they had not established their case. With regard
to the general charge which was made tegainst Orangemen, he
would observe that he was no Orangemen, hut he believed that
as a body they were united for the purpose of supporting the
laws and religion of. their country, and he had not seen any
thing in their conduct to induce a belief that they did not fully
act up to their professions. But it had now become the prac-
tice to stigmatise them, and to speak of diem and the Ribbon-
men.together. Nothing could be more opposite than the views
and practices of the two parties. The Orangemen,
however,
were attacked by many of those who did not dare openly to
attack the Protestant religion, and who zhus• indirectly attack-
eel the religion through the Orange Members of it. The object
of the Ribbonmen, their avowed object, was to violate the laws,
to destroy all property, and to massacre the Protestants.—
(Hear, hear!)
SALARIES OF THE GOVERNMENT CLERKS.
Mr. STUART WORTLEY gave notice, that on Thursday
next he should have to present a Petition from the Clerks of
one of-the Government offices, respecting the deduction of five
per cent. out of their salaries for a superannuation fund. .
Mr. HUME presented a Petition from the Synod of Angus
and Mearns, praying that religious instruction may be extend-
ed to the negro slaves.-'--Ordered to he printed. •
STATE OF IRELAND.

Lord A LTHORP said, that in rising to submit to the House
the motion of which he had given notice, he need not make any
preface as to the difficulty of the task he had undertaken. He
felt himself so oppressed by his sense of that difficulty, that he
must bespeak the indulgence of the House, not only under the
trespass he should commit upon their time, but under the in-
competent advocacy which he should be able to give to the sub-
ject. He felt himself, however, emboldened to proceed, from
the conviction that, even were be to fail in persuading the House
to adopt his motion, the discussion which it would create would
be productive of much benefit. The difficulties in the situa-
tion of Ireland were theresult of a long course of events. Ever
since we had obtained a footing hi that country we had treated
it he was sorry to say, like a conquered country. And that great
evil had been aggravated by the difference of religion between
the conquerors and the conquered. The consequence of such a
state of things was, distrust, violent party spirit, antta general
hatred of the laws which were tainted by the vice of partiality
in their administration. Thus were produced the difficulties
which presented themselves in an almost insurmountable
form, in the, situation of Ireland.: Nor were those the lei
formidable, inasmuch as they were evils which required to be
approached with Care; for it was obviously impossible to sap-
pose that the growth of centuries could be removed by any sud-
den, violent, or undigested. process.—( H ear, hear !)—lle had
described the state of things in Ireland at the time of the Union,
previously to which time, and under which circumstances, he
was willing to admit that there would have been great danger
in admitting the people to the whole of their privileges. But
the difference which that measure had created was to be marked.
The Catholics of Ireland, from being the majority, became the
minority, when joined with the rest of the subjects of the Crown
of England. Whatever danger there might have been before
from a free admission of the Catholics to equal rights and
' power, it could no longer exist after this change; and it would
have been true wisdom to have acted upon. that conviction.
The evils attendant upon the Union were an increase of abseil-
' tees, accompanied by a subtraction from the capital of the
country. To restore the balance a wise Government would
have made it a capital point of policy to put down the viTu-
lance of parties, and certainly to have abstained from giving
encouragement to either party by conferring honour and emo-
lument upon the principals of either. Besides this, an equa-
lity of political rights ought to have been granted. Under such
a course of government, if capital had been temporarily with-
drawn, it would have been soon replaced, and greater advan-
tages flow from it. The difficulty of dealing with Ireland was
increased, because the greater part -of her evils were of a na-
ture which could not be provided for by legislative enact-
ments.—(Henr, hear !)—Taking this into consideration, he had
come to the conclusion,, that a general.inquiry, into the subject
was the mode best calculated for.attaining eventual good. If
the general nature of the inquiry were objected to, no mode
would remain but to pursue the ;tame end by the appointment
of separate Committees. This he did hat think advisable, in-
asmuch as the single Report of a Committee a that Ilouse,ap-
pointed for such a purpose, would carry infinitely more weight
it
with than if divined into azveral reports upon distinct to..

pica as would then be the.ease. ~ lie was persuaded that a
Report of that House, spewing the ttue interests of the people
otalreland, and, if necessary, shaming the two parties into a
more conciliatory course, would carry great weight with it.—
The same objection which he grad stated. to separate Commit-
tees would apply to the fashionable mode of dealing with these'
questions, viz. by a Commission. It was true that a Commis-
sion could move its investigation to the spot, but they could not
properly report any remedy not within the scope of legislative
interference; and what weight would any recommendation of
theirs have, compared with the suggestions of a Committee of
that House? He did think that a body of Gentlemen of that
House, applying 'themselves earnestly to discover remedies for
the evils of a portion of their fellow subjects, would carry with
them a degree of respectability that would ensure attention to
their words. As. to the Objections that might be urged against
his .propositiOn, he did not apprehend that one would be the
improvement in the state of Ireland, rendering it unnecessary.
He did not expect to be met in that manner, because a Bight
llon.Gentleman opposite had given notice for Thursday next,
he believed of a motion for enquiry into the state of certain
counties, with reference to the application of the Insurrection
Act. Now, it was to be observed, that this Act would apply
all over Ireland, therefore a separate inquiry would only par-
tially meet the question. It might also be objected that
ar: inquiry such as he proposed, would occupy a long time.—
This was most true, and for this reason it was that he felt
indifferent as-to whether his motion were brought forward at
the beginning, middle, or end of the Session. But if Ireland
were in a state to require the application of the insurrection
Act, no man could say that it was not in the greatest dameer.
Lideed a view of such a state as Ireland was in, was enoughto
make any one bid farewell to the prosperity of England and
the independence of the country. It was impossible to look
at it without shuddering; and he would not believe that
Gentlemen in that House would not come forward in such a
case of emergency and interest, on account of the labour it
would entail upon them. For what did they sit there—fir what
did they offer their services to theirconatituents if they could
not find time for the important business of the State ? The
powers of the Committee -Should be large and extensive,
beyond the mere limits of legislative enactments. There
was no question which the House ought to be more cau-
tious in. approaching than that oi: Landlord and Tenant,
and there was none which more 'loudly demanded inquiry
;than time state of the law on that estiblect in Ireland. In
that country rent was paid by the latter in the form of
a running; account of labour performed foie the landlord.,
There were many evils attached to this mode. It was
inipossible under it to amesa any capital, without which so
many things essential to the comforts of the females of the
family could not be obtained.. If then any means could he
found of giving the labourer his pay as in this country, a
great benefit would be conferred. The question of Middle-
men, and the evils resulting from that branch of the system
in Ireland, were too notorious to need any illustration on his
part. Another important question was, the employment for
capital. The House would not agree the other night with the
motion of an Hon. Friend of his for a vote of public money
to Ireland. Yet no one. who had heard the speech of his Hon.
Friend could doubt that one of the great evils of Ireland
was the want of capital, and• consequently want of the means
of employment. It was his 'opinion that the danger of ad-
vancing capital to Ireland might be made to appear in a very
diminished light. The Irish peasant knew his interest too
well, he thought., by this time, to do any thing which should
have the effect of frightening away so great a benefit. If his
views were correct, how great would be the advantage of cir-
culating these impressions with all the authority of a Report of
that House ? Ile had stated the other night that he thought a
large reduction of taxes ought to be made in Ireland, with a
view to the increase of capital. He had been blamed for this,
as a proposal for removing the burdens of Ireland and placing
them on England, and also as tending to raise Ireland to the
rank of a manufacturing competitor to England. , He wished
to God he could achieve so great a blessing.—(Hear, hear !)
—He was afraid, however, that they were far from so de-
sirable a point. All his object in the recommendation was,
that GoVernment should adopt a plah which should pro-
mote an incrirasad rate of profits in the absence of capital.—
Another effect of such a course would be the tranquilization
of Ireland, in the comfort of which every exertion would be
amply repaid. What motives indeed could they want to any
such course when they saw the eapenee Of maintaining a large
standing army, and extensive police were before them, be-
sides that the system itself was One which ought not to be tole-
rated within the limits of a free Constitution ? There was a
contagion about arbitrary power, which no exertions should be
spared .to get rid of. The Grand. Jury Presentments was
another question deserving the attention of the Committee,
That iminense engine of taxation ought to be got rid of in some
way or other. The next questipn for consideration was die
Church Establishment in Ireland. He 'did not wish to affect
the Established Church, but then he did not consider the inte-
rests of that .Church, and the wealth of the Clergy as syno-
mous. Connected also with this was the Tithe Question.—
In England nothing was easier than to force the Clergyman
to take his tidies in I:ind, if.there were any dispute as to the
money agreement. in, Ireland nothing; w,as more difficult; and
there were bCsides other 'difficulties and oppressions attached
to the taking of tithes, that 'it was most necessary to get rid
of. They already knew what bloodshed and disturbance
these things had created in Ireland. Another point to which the
attention of Parliament was forcibly called was the Orange
and Catholic; Lodges, llc.distinguished neither of these—they
were both bad, add he wished to see them both suppressed. It
was not easy to put them down by law, to do which an attempt
had
been made last year, which had proved distasteful to a
free country. Ilk exhortation and a wise policy might prove
successful. The next great point, was, the disabilities under
which so large a portion of the country laboured. By these
they felt themselves to be a degraded. caste, under which the
most galling feelings came in to aggravate any momentary die.-
tress into the direst confusion and misery. He confessed upon
this head he derived but little. hope from the political conduct
of the Right lion. Secretary for Foreign Affairs. That Right
Hon. Gentleman had now reached the highest point of fortune it
was possible for him to attain. No situation which this country,
Europe, or the world could offer him, could he promotion
to him.—(Hear, hear !)—Let him then use the power which
this exalted situation gave him, for the oolypurpose that power
could be acceptable or desirable, viz. the purpose of doing
good. It was not the title of Secretary of State, still less the
paltry salary attached to the office, but the power of handing
down his name to posterity as a benefactor to the public, tha'm,
could give the Right Hon. Gentleman's present situation a va-
lue in his eyes.—(Hear, he r, !)--The past career of the
Right Hon. Gentleman upon this subject, proved that he knew
what he ought to do. He bad great power in his hands, and he
(Lord Althore) called on him to come forward in a manly man-
ner, and carry his own wishes into effect. In doing so lie would
secure the support of every liberal nian in the House, and of
every man of talent and attainments ,in the country.—(Hear,
hear, hear !) The Noble Lord concluded by moving the ap-
pointment of a Select Committee to examine into the present
state of Ireland, anti report the same to the House.
Sir H. PARNELL seconded the 'motion. He thanked his
Noble Friend for the very able manner in which he had treated
this important question, as well as for his general exertions in
behalf of Ireland. The evils of Ireland arose, there could be no
no doubt, froth the poverty of the people. The failure of a crop
in that country was the sure forerunner of famine, the. prolific
parent of every vice and misery. It was not sufficient that the
people of Ireland should have employment—it should be such
employment as would afford. them the means of better living.
He had no doubt that a Committee, such as his Noble Friend
desired, would be productive of the greatest benefits. Ile
differed so far from his Hon. Friend on the subject of legi-
slative measures, as to think that they :night be made available
to the accumulation of capital in Ireland. In its present con-
dition it really was surprising. that there was so much capi-
tal in Ireland. There could be no doubt that there had been ,a
great accumulation 'of capital since 18112 or 1803. Ireland had
the benefit of a free trade in corn. with England in 1806, which.
had assisted towards the increase of capital. Already much
had been done towards the improvement of Ireland, which in-
creased the security of capital embarked there. Amongst
other things the repeal of the Usury Laws would be a great
boon to Ireland. But these questions would be best treated by
a Committee appointed with the powers proposed by his Noble
Friend.
Mr. GOULBURN would endeavour to confine himself to
the question before the House, and avoid following the Noble
Lord and Hon. Baronet into the topics which they had intro-
duced. Those who did him the honour to recollect the part
which he had taken when motions of a similar nature were
brought before the House, would have little doubt as to the
course which he must pursue on the present •occasion, would
be satisfied that lie could not give his assent to the motion.
At the same time he begged that it might be understood,
that he was opposed to no inquiry into the state of Ireland
which could be advantageously conducted, and brought to an
useful result. He considered the motion of the Noble Lord
embraced too many objects. Time former state of parties, the
old and present system of tithes, the situation of landlord and
tenant, and as if these were not enough, the concession%
claimed by the lloman Catholics, to which all the evils which
afflicted Ireland were attributed. This last question, he was
surprised to find the Noble Lord would refer to a Select Com-
mittee. If that were the fittest course to pursue, why had it
been discussed in the House year after year ? Not approving
of this proposition, it would be his duty to offer an amend-
ment to the motion, the object of which would be to post-
pone the consideration of some of the matters which the Noble
Lord wished it to embrace, till the motion of which he had
given notice should come before the House. The Noble Lord
lied anticipated some of the objections which might be made
AO his
;proposition, rma
a-a had contended that the improved state

of Ireland could not be urged in answer to it, when it was in
contemplation to call the attention of the House to the dis-
turbed state of Cork, Limerick, Tipperary, Clare, and other
counties. He, however, could not consent on account of local
disturbances, to adopt a course which would affect the whole
of Ireland. fri proceeded to defend the conduct of the Go-
vernment of ft:eland, which he contended was free from any
partialities growing • out of religious persuasions. It would be
found from the lists on the table that of the individuals em-
ployed by the Government. it would be found that to six
Protestants, there were nine Catholics. He begged the House
to pause before . they adopted the ideas of the Noble Lord with
respect to the • wealth of - the -Church of Ireland. • H
Goulburn) would admit that the Church of Irelarcd was fully
endowed, more so perhaps than that of England ; but this ad-
mission made, it ought to be remembered that double duties
attached to the Irish Church, and to secure the discharge of
these the revenues ought to be ample. After some further re-
marks the Right Hon. Gentleman said he should move an
amendment which would substitute for the inquiry which the
Noble Lord had proposed, one of which he thought would se-
cure every benefit that could be hoped from carrying the mo-
tion. He moved to omit all the words of the original motion,
after the word examine," for purpose of adding
.those
words, " into the nature•and extent of the disturbances in cef-
tain districts not subjected to the operations of the Insurrection
Act."

Lord MILTON contended that it would be better to enquire
generally into the state of Ireland than to eater upon that par-
tial inquiry which the Right Hon. Gentleman had recommend-
ed to the House. This country ought to know the state of Ire-
land well to govern it properly, and at prt-sent he maintained
that a great degree of grievances prevailed with respect to its.
affairs. Ile believed there was no country in Europe in a
similar state with Ireland. It was his hope that effectual mea-
sures would be adopted to afford adequate and permanent
relief to its inhabitants. Capital could be found in England
for Colombia and for other States, and, indeed, for States not
in existence, but none could be: found for Ireland. Could
English capital he taught to flow in. that direction, the greatest
heneliti would follow. He, therefore, wished the motion for a
general inquiry into the state of that country, as till that shotild
be known, the necessary remedy could not be suppli A. There
were a number of persons in Ireland, to- whom he thought ad-
vice might be conveyed with very considerable e&ct.. To the
Grand-Master of the Orange Lodge, and to the Post-Master
General, advice might be conveyed ire a mode which, could not
fail to lead to beneficial consequences. ,But a proper course had,
as yet, never been taken. It had been the policy of the English I
Ministers to govern 4-sthis of the people or Ireland bypeana of
the remaining fifth. The arts of corruption were not unknown
there, and he who could not get forward in.Engltuid commonly
received preferment in Ireland. This was the way in which
Ireland had been governed. Ile did not say that it was so now,
but the traces of past misgovernment still remained. They
could only be effaced by a long course of good government,
and this could never be accomplished by the interference of
Orangemen or Ribboniten. He noticed the oppressive laws to.
which. Ireland had been subjected. Some of which, and among
them one which made it death to marry a Roman Catholic and
a Protestant remained at pre;ent unrepealed, but by implica-
tion and usage. To effect a general improvement in the state
of Ireland, it was desirable by enlightening the people to dimi-
nish the influence of their priests. Ile earnestly contended that
the circumstances of every part of Ireland ought to be fully
known in England, and hence inferred the necessity of that in-
quiry for which the present motion called. Would any body
believe that such an inquiry had taken place, that a Bill like
that which the House, much to its honour, had rejected yester-
day, would have been brought before it ? Was there a
man who believed that the Dean and Chapter of any Cathedral
in England would have dared . to come forward with such a
Bill. That Bill he considered to have' been generated by the
state of Ireland, by the state of the law, and the state of the
administration of the law in that country. He considered
good likely to result from the limited inquiry proposed by the
Right Honourable Gentlethan ; but as still greater good might
be expected from the more general inquiry contemplated by
the motion,- for that he should feel it to be his duty to vote.
Mr. NORTH *aid that many aid various as were the evils
which afflicted Ireland, the number and variety of the causes
assigned for them were equallY great, each class of persons as-
signiag that which his own particular interest suggested. The
mass of the unemployed population had been represented as
one of those causes, and undoubtedly it was a true one. When
the arts of civilization had not been tried to make peace and ins
dustry go hand in hand and assist each other, it was natural that
a people so energetic, with whom employment was a want, a
natural appetite equally powerful with the desire of food, should
become restless and turbulent. But there was another cause
which should not be overlooked ; which was the powerful in-
fluence of habit. The habit of resistance to the Government
was one which was transmitted from generation to generation;
it was an example which they inherited from their fathers._ The
first cause of this disordered state of Ireland was its imperfect
conquest. From the time of Henry 11. to the reign of
.Eliza-
beth, there was e continued struggle. 'The country was repeat-
edly overrun, but never subdued; and the conquest which was
begun by StrOngbow, was left unfinished by Essex. Another
powerful-cause of evil was the corrupting and debasing influ-
ence of the Penal Code. Who that looked through the history
of the country would venture to say that he had a specific for a
disorder so inveterate as this? For the insufficiency of employ-
, ment for the labouring portion of the population several reme-
dies had been proposekand among them was one which had
much in it to recommend it to his mind—which was that of
emigration on a large scale. It was one which reconciled itself
the most perfectly With the feelings and character of the people.
If he knew anything of his countrymen there was among them
a love of novelty and a spirit of change, which was highly fa-
vourable to colonization. They spoke with enthusiasm of dis-
tant countries, which they fondly imagined to be more peace-
ful than their own; and were ever ready to seek—
" Some safer world in depths of woods embraced,
Some happier island in the watery waste."
There would be found in every country certain natural deposi-
tories of power and influence among the people, who ought to
be gained over to the support of the Government. One of the
most powerful of those in Ireland were the Catholic Priest..
hood, who ought by all means to be enlisted in the cause
of improving the condition of the people, by raising them
and placing them in a situation of competence and respectabi-
lity. There had also grown up within a few years past a consi-
derable body among the laity, whose talents, station, and charac-
ter hail acquired for them a powerful influence over their fellow
Catholics ; but the influence of these had been much checked by
the system of doubt and distrust which had grown up out of that
party spirit, that like a moral Malaria spread its baleful influence
over the whole country. No
.man more ardently desired than
he did the extinction of all party spirit in Ireland; but he must
say that the course recommended by Gentlemen on the other
side of the House for arriving at that object appeared to him the
most mischievously calculated for inflaming and, perpetuating it.
The most likely method, as it appeared to hirn, of neutralising
the spirit of party was a steady and determining perseverance in
that system of imparti• lity and disregard of personal consider-
ations and opinions which characterised the present Government
of Ireland, and led him to regard it as the best calculated for
promoting the interests of the country that it had as yet enjoyed.
Much had been said of the share which the Protestant Clergy
had in promoting discontent in Ireland ; but as far as he was
enabled to judge between them and the Country Gentlemen who
seemed disposed to array themselves against them, he was in-
clined to decide in favour of the Clergy. He thought the
Noble Lord would be greatly deceived, if he anticipated any
practical result from the success of his motion. The extent'
variety, and nature of the subjects which would present them-
selves for inquiry, would serve only to distract and perplex the
Committee. The description of persons they would have to ex-
amine as witnesses, the nature of the evidence that Would be
placed before them embracing every opposite extreme of (minion,
would furnish them with nothing but what they had already
heard and read in speeches and pamhlets, until they hitei' been
surfeited with its repetition. As an Irishman, he felt grateful to
the present Government for what it had done, and was thank-
ful that it had not attempted more ; for the surest way, in his
opinion, to defeat its. endeavours. to improve the condition of
Ireland would be, by directing its efforts to too many objects at
once. Much good had already been done; and he believed that
the time would soon come when it would please Providence to
enlarge and open the hearts of the English people to the recep-
tion of a just and liberal policy towards Ireland. If any modi-
fication or change were to be made in the institutions of that
country, he trusted that it would come from the Country
Gentlemen of Ireland themselves, and he strongly depre-
cated any attempt at such change from any other quarter.
Let the Gentlemen of Ireland set themselves in earnest to this
work, and let them begin the reform of the abuses of their
country's institutions by reforming themselves.—( Loud cheer-
ing. )—Let them reform their country on the ruins of faction.
If they did that—if they rooted out their own prejudices, the.
English people would forego theirs; and he saw every prospect
that Ireland would at length attain that pitch of fortune and
prosperity which it was, the wish of every Gentleman of that
country that it should attain.
Sir J. NEWPORT said that, for one, he would deprecate
any inquiry within the narrow limits prescribed by the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. North.) If ever there was a period when a
proper inquiry could be made with safety into the affairs of
Ireland it was the present. If it were deferred the House would
be certain to lose an opportunity of doing much good, without
doink any evil.
Mr. STANLEY said that the Hon. Gentleman opposite
(Mr. North) had drawn a melancholy picture of the state of
Ireland, whose miseries be lead. declared were not casual, but
appeared to be inseparable _from the nation. Deeply as lie re-
gretted its truth,
he did not regret the oratory of the Hon. Gen-
tleman, which, he conceived, proved more than any thing else

could the deep necessity for an inquiry into th cause of its
evils. The only way in which he had endeavoured to meet the
question was, by contending that they were of too extensive a
nature to be remedied ; and he therefore proposed to leave Ire-
land to her solitary and unregarded misery. But he (311',
Stanley) would ask, if there were no good to be anticipated
from the inquiry, what advantage could possibly arise from the
amendment ?

Sir JOHN SF,BRIGHT supported the motion. The re-.
medics proposed by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman could
not succeed.
Sir F. BURDETT considered the speech of the Hon. And
Learned Gentleman a most able and eloquent picture of the n,
state of Ireland, but the Hon. Gentleman would allow him to
say it was not less inconsistent than eloquent. It was a speech
no one could answer, because it was a complete' answer to it—
self. The statements contradicted each other. The Hon. Gentle-
man lied drawn a high-coloured picture of the disastrous state
of the country. The Legislature wcs called upon to prOb
e
the wounds of Ireland to the bottom ; but althongh that was to • •
he the remedy, they were to have no inquiry. The Honourable
Meenber who was for taking effectual measures supported the
Amendment, which was a mere inquiry how the Insurrection
Act had not produced the desired effect. DeScribing as he did '
the calamities of Ireland, the Hon: and Learned Gentleman
had terminated his harangue by saying he would not support
the.motion for inqiiiry. The situation of the people of Ireland •
was sail to be such that they had nothing to fear or hope, yet
they were to have no, redress, because the evil was above con-
troul. A panegyric was then bestowed on the 'people whose
privations bad stimulated them to 'exertions'. People who thus
conducted themselves were surely entitled to inquiry with a .
view of redressing their grievances. That consideration brought
to his mind the Cetholic question, one of the great leading fea-
tures of discontent in Ireland. The people making a virtue
of necessity, had remained patient without redresS in that re
specs, but it mien be settled at last. The Hon. and Learned •
Gentleman, with a facility of language peculiar to himself,
had praised the Orangemen as possessing all that was good in
Ireland. Ile might ask-why had the Hon. and Learned Member.
been so ready to allovn that party so much merit, and withhold
praise from othees? With respect to colonization, he• was
sure Ministers would not sanction it, upon "a proper plan sod •.,
scale. Means should be taken to secure the comfort of mei-
grants upon a system different from that which had led tomi-
sery at the Cape of Good HOpe. It was proper Parliament at
lawn should know what could be ddi)e for Ireland. It wax .
important to the people of England to assist Ireland, and the
English Gentlemen would'do well to consider, that in the pre-
sent
state of distress, they were supporting the poor of Ireland.
The evils of Ireland arose out of the extreme poverty of the
peasantry. From- all lie had formerly heard, he thought that .
time would' be hailed by all descriptions of persons in that
House, when a full and fair inquiry into the state of Ireland
should take place. If the proper time had not now arrived, be
knew not when it could be expected. For these reasons he •
should support the motion.
Mr. PEEI. said, this was the second time lie had heard the
Hon. Baronet express his-regret at not hearing the opinions of
the Members of his Majesty's Government upon the subject
under discussion ; but had not the lion. Baronet, whom he al-
ways heard with great pleasure, been so frequently absent front
the House, he might have heard the subject discussed over and
over again, and the opinions of his Majesty's Ministers givers .
upon it usque -ad nauseam.—(A laugh.)—llad not his Hon.
and Learned Friend Oita North) risen before him, he was
about to express his regret that the forms of the House did not
allow him an opportunity of correcting several misrepresenta-
tions of what he (Mr. North) had said, and which had fallen ha
was sure through misconception from. the Hon. Baronet. This
short explanation, however, which had just taken place rendered
the remark unneceseary. Now with. reference to the general
question, which in his (Mr. Peel's) ..opinion laid •in a. tnuch
narrow compass than the Hon. Baronet (Sir Francis.Btudett)
seemed willing to allow, he could not for his part • see so
marked a difference between the proposition submitted to them. •
by the Noble Lord and that which his Right Hon. Friend had
moved as an amendment. They both meant to remedy the evils
of Ireland: The one embraced a large field, the other confined
itself to a specific remedy and surety. The remedy which his. Rt.
Hon. Friend proposed to apply could not be said to be of a very
partial nature when it propoSed to extend it to the whole of one.
proiince (Munster) and to some of the counties of another. Go-
vernment had been accused of indifference to the distresses of
Ireland ; but surely the conduct which they had adopted was
a refutation of the charge. Last Session, when it was proposed
to institute an inquiry into education in that country, His Ma-
jesty's Government would willingly have acceded to, had .it
not been for the late period of the session. This Session, how-
ever, they cheerfully acceded to the .motion of the Right Horn
Baronet (Sir J. Newport), and a Commission had in conse-
quence been appointed. The language of Government rove - .
riably was, " Point out some specific grievance, and we will
assist in finding out a remedy. Above all-things he (Mr. Peel)
was surprised at the abuse which had been lavished on the
motion of his Right Hon. Friend, which was the very same
that had been submitted to their consideration last year by the
Bon. Baronet who that evening seconded the motion of the
Noble herd. lie was sure if he had an opportunity he would
rise and vindicate his own motion from the aspersions that hact
been cast upon it. The Noble Lord (Milton) had said that Go-
vernment wished to get rid of the motion by a side-wind. That
was not, however, the case ; for the amendment of his Hors
Friend was prepared inconsequence of a distinct pledge given •
by him last Session, when he stated, that if at any future time
he shOuld find it necessary to move for a renewal of the
Insurrection Act, he should in that case bring the situa-
tion of the disturbed districts fully before the House. He -
concurred in one or two objects brought forward by the Noble
Lord, but in many lie totally differed. He was as strenuous an
advocate for the cause of the Church as any man ; he thought
there ought to be a difference of rank in it. It might suit a
republican form of Government not to' have an established
Church, but with 'respect to this country it could never be ad.
vantageous. When this subject was under consideration last
year, lie had the same opinions which he now had. He thought •
that secret societies in Ireland were not beneficial; but he was
more anxious to make an impression apon their minds by exhi-
biting the wishes of the Government, than by actual enactment.
It had been said that parties who were engaged in them, if be-
longing to Government, might be dismissed. If this measly
were resorted to, it would only increase party spirit in that
country. He trusted that he had shewn that Government wetb-
sincere in their wish to.alleviate the distresses of Ireland, and
that much good would accrue from the inquiry proposed by his
Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Goulburn).
Mr. Secretary CANNING and Lord ALTHORPE rose; the
latter gave way. •

Mr. Secretary CANNING—In intruding between the Noble
Lord and the House, and the motives which induce me to do
so, will be a sufficient guarantee to the House, even if I thought
it necessary to go into the arguments, not to go over the ground
which has been so frequently argued. In the first place, Ido
not intend to take any view of the great question which can in-
duce me to go into such a case as the Noble Lord conceives...-.
There is nothing that I am aware of which can put the HOLISO
and the country at rest upon that great question, excepting .
advanced state of opinion, which was calculated to produce COD,
version. But when the Noble Lord calls upon me to shew my
sincerity, I, in the first place, as a proof of my sincerityin the
opinions which I have embraced, refer to my public line of con-
duct. I deny that I have here or elsewhere shrunk from de-
claring my opinions. I may have been right or wrong—l may
have been politic or impolitic in the line which I have followed,
but in all the cases in which I have advocated the cause of the,
Roman Catholics, I have studiously abstained from leading
them to believe that I was a partisan to their notions. To
them, therefore, or to those who have placed tjlemselves in
such a situation, and whom I blame not for doing what
they have, to those I neither owe nor will I render any .est-,
planation of my conduct. I have reserved to myself at au
times in or out of office, and I still reserve to myself, an
unfettered disposition on that subject for its progress or
success. I have come to no agreement with the Noble Lord
or any man who shall take up the subject, in what mannef
I shall proceed (I speak not in an offensive sense); but 1,.
have supported every one who has brought the queetiert
forward, and am ready to do so again when the occasion shall
present itself ; and ,on every occasion I have been actuated
with a view to the good of the country. Ever since t!.e Catho-
lic Question existed, the members of the Administee,ion have
divided upon it. It has so happened, it has come into the
world as it were having differences of opinion respecting it. It
is said that 1 am bound to take some steps towards accom-
plishing this 'object. But I deny that I am bound to do so in
the way pointed out. I.thought it was more likely to be car-
ried under a divided Government, than under a Government
united - upon that point, but divided upon different sub-
jtcts. I have held that opinion, but have recommended it.
g always held it and acted upon it, I have no right
to called on to explain. There is not a time in which.
.111
did not take such a line of argument to be proper, and is
Noblebe calledl.ord uponaHeg
e tos
thatexi)ln 6 Y
which I did not hold such an opinion • and having donee
I might be called upon to vindicate the wisdom of it, but I
cannot
The
hallegedproclaimincontsoismtey col-
leagues iesuagnlit to
leagues that the period is now come in which we ought to make
up a common opinion on the Catholic question. This I deny,'
holding the course which I have adopted. I certainly am not
here by any wish or choice of my own • the result would
have been much better for myself, perhaps, had I been
far away; but perhaps the Catholic Question would have
been in no better condition than it is at present. I believe
with the Noble Lord, I wish as much as he can for its sup-
port, that will ultimately make its way, notwithstanding all
the opposition it meets with ; but I am bound to say that there
is a strong feeling against it in this country; and I am iler-
suaded that it never can be carried consistent with the peeo

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