The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-13 00:00:00

parsimony of the P.omans. But it was to be recollected,
that with respect to those times, very different rewards I
were to be obtained—a Roman general returned laden with '
spoils.—(Cheers.) His Noble Friend had also alluded to
the rewards bestowed in the time of Elizabeth: New,
even in that time Sir Francis Drake brought home with
him such a quantity of silver as would have shocked the
people of the present day had they seen it in the case of
Sir John Keane. In those days the Crown had the power
to reward with lands, privileges, and monopolies, which
in these days would not be tolerated ; while even Sir
Walter Raleigh had a pension of 3,000/. a-year granted
him by Elizabeth—a sum much greater, considering the
period, than that now proposed. Then the Crown could
confer high offices, or grant large sinecures or pensions, to
those who had performed any signal service to the coun-
try ; but all that was now abolished— the House of Com-
mons had very properly said that all this power should
not remain in the Crown, and where money rewards were
to be granted, the House of Commons should be con-
sulted, in order that it might have an op-
portunity of showing its gratitude to those per-
sons who had performed eminent services to-
wards their country. Was not the case under consider-
ation, one in which eminent services had been performed ?
—( Cheers.) It was a case which admitted•of no doubt,
and the services had been duly considered and fully ac-
know:edged by the House last year. Now, suppose that.
the case had been reversed—even suppose that the policy
of the Government had been entirely wrong, they de-
sired the army to cross the Indus. Suppose Sir Jibe
Keane tied made object'ons respecting the d•fficultics of
the Bolen pass, or cempleined of the smallness of his
army, as compared with the force he was ordered against,
cr that he had returned from the enterprise unsuccessful,
what would have been the dangers to which the empire
would have been subjected?—(Cheers.) lied such been,
unfortunately, the state of cheernstanc s, the Govern-
ment must have come doen to the Ilouse, and
asked an addition of 5,000 cr 10,000 men, which
would have been necessary to restore that moral force
which we would have lost, and an expenditure of probably
sonic 300,000/. would have been essentially necessary, in
order to secure the Indian Empire.—( Cheers ) It was,
ir. fact, a matter of pounds, shillings, and pence,
after all. They had followed the example set them
by the cases of these officers who were promoted
after the glorious termination of the war in 1815,
and it seemed to him to be the reasenable course
to pursue, fir it would be a mockery to offer a
Peerage to any deserving general, rithout at the same
time giving him the means of supporting the dignity.
His Noble Friend said they ought to come to that H 1.130
fur the pension, before they granted the Peerage. That
was a doctrine to which he could not Agree it was most
uncoestitutienal ; and while he remained a Minister of
the Cretan, he would never bring forward any resolation
for a grant of money, upon the decision of which de-
pended the bestowal of a Peerage.—(Cacers.) Were
such a doctrine to obtain, it would be a heavy blow even
to democracy. What was to become of a younger brother,
or a man who had risen from the raniu—of ary poor man
who might have performed groat and gall4nt services to
the Crown, if the prerogative of the Crown were to be so
abridged? Upon all these grounds, and as it was not, and
could not be called a political question, as it was to re-
ward eminent sent iscs rendered to the country, he trusted
that the H :use would support the Resolution which was
before it.
Mr. HUME said that no man ought to be influenced
in his vote on this occasion by the charge which bad been
made against Lord Keane. lie objected t 3 the grant, on
'he ground that it was an attempt to pension the aristo-
cracy at the expense of the people.—( Hear, hear.) Ile
did not object to the green's creating as many Peers as
she liked. She might make Lords and Dukes in shoals.—( A
laugh.) The more she made the less value would the
possessors of titles put upon their dignities. But did the
Noble Lord mean to surround her Majesty with a pauper
aristocracy, supported by pensions ? The Noble Lord
prop ,sed to continue the pension for two generations.
Eut why not carry out his principle to the third? How
was the great-grandson of Lord Keene to support the
dignity of the peerage without a pension ? He could show
in the Pension List mothers and daughters of pauper
Peers, and did the Noble Lord think it right to increase
the number?—(Hear, hear.) The question was asked,
ought not her M,jesty to reward meritorious individuals ?
—and allusion was made to the course which he (Mr.
Hume) took when he brought the question of sinecure
offices before the House. He did not depart from what
he said then, that it would be better, if men merited re-
wards, to come to Parliament for a grant. But why not
create life Peerages ?—( Hear, hear.) Those who placed
so high a value upon the Peerage, ought not to degrade it
by giving it to persons who were not able to maintain its
dignity without taking money out of the pockets of the
people. It would be more honourable to Lord Keane and to
the Government, and safer to the country, to give him a
Peerage for life, with sufficient to maintain his dignity so
long as he lived, hut not to take his children out of the
ranks of the middle classes, in which they could maintain
themselves with credit by their own exertions. A second
objection to the grant was the state of the finances.—
( Hear, hear.) We were not able to pay the debts we
owed already.—( Cheers.) There had been in the last four
years an aggregate deficiency of five millions.—(Hear,
hear.) The aristocracy were always ready to pension
people out of the money of the people, at the same time
that they themselves avoided, by all possible means, to
contribute their fair share towards bearing the burthens
of the country.—( Hear, heare)
Sir BUSSE Y VIVIAN, after so long intimacy with
Lord Keane, hoped the House would allow him to say a
i few words on the present occasion. He did not mean to
reply at any length to the arguments of the Hon. Gcn-
tleman, bat one observaion he must make in answer to
the Hon. Member's question, whether the officers of the
1 British army were stimulated by the hope of pensions ?
He could inform the Hon. Gentleman that the officers were
actuated by as honourable feelings as any body of men in
the world. Nine-tenths of them bought their commissions
at the full value of their pay, and gave their gratuitous
services to their country.—(Cheers.) But it was only
right that an officer, who had rendered such distinguished
services as Lord Keane, should receive the honour
which it was now proposed to confer on him. He would
remind his Hon. Friend, that when an officer obtained
these high rewards for gallant services, it stimulated and
encouraged others to similar deeds of gallantry. It was
unnecessary for him to go into the details of the brilliant
affair of the taking of Giauznce, but it was an action that
had completed the triumph of their arms in that part of
India, and bad restored the throne to its rightful possessor.
Mr. MUNTZ did not wish to disparage the services of
Lord Keane. He had no objection to their giving him
an ample and honourable reward, but he did not think
that either be or the House had any right to tax those who
were yet to be born for such a purpose.—( Hear, hear.)
Sir H. H ARDINGE reminded the Hon. Member for
Kilkenny, that he had stated, upon the Naval and Military
Commission, that he wished all military appointments to
be taken away fi otn the Crown, but when a fair case was
made out, let Government come down with a fair propo-
sition and it would be supported. Now when they bad
done so the Hon. Member turned round upon theta. He
confessed he did not think such conduct quite consietcnt.
Mr. BROTH E RTON said they ought rather to confer
distinctions on those who bad saved lives, instead of con-
ferring them on those who had caused so great a destruc-
tion of human life.—(Hear, and laughter.) He would
remind them of Captain Clegg, who had last year saved
upwards of a hundred lives, and who had not received the
slightest reward. He wished to sac the Government imi-
tating the example of the King of the French in that
respect.
Sir R. JENKINS supported the motion.
GeneraIJOHNSTONE did not wish to detract from

the merits of Lord Keane, but he objected to so wasteful
an expenditure of the public money.
Colonel SIBTHORP would not be doing his duty to
his country if he did not give his decided support to the
motion.

Lord HO WICK explained. He thought the allusions
made to him in the course of the debate wore quite incon-
sistent with the usages of the House. His Nook Friend
the Secretary of State had not done justice to his argu-
ment. Ile had never intended in all cases to object to the
union of Peerages and pensions as the reward of great
services, for, as he had before stated, in any great cases
of military services he approved of it. But it was only in
ruch cases be thought it justifiable, or even customary, and
he believed that even the greatest of our naval commanders,
Lord Nelson, did not receive the reward of a Peerage and ,
a pension until so late in his brilliant career as the battle
of the Nile.
Colonel SALINE Y could not avoid expressing his re-
gret that her Majesty's Ministers had been so ill advised as
to propose the continuance of this grant to the two suc-
cessors of Lord Keane. With regard to the conduct of
Lord Keane he believed it could not be said that there was
a more gallant officer in the service, but he must oppose a
grant to his two successors, which he considered to be in-
jurious and erroneous in principle. He must again express
his regret that such a grant should have been proposed by
her Majesty's Ministers, and it was his
opinion that the
contrast between their professions in that House and their
conduct out of it was melancholy in the extreme.( Ironi-
cal cheers from the Opposition.)
The House then divided, when there appeared
For the motion ......................j
Against it
..... • ..... • 43
Maj0rity...............
DUTY ON RUM. .....
152
Sir ALEXANDER GRANT presented a petition
against the equalization of the duties on East and West
!eche Rum.
Mr. HA WES presented a petition, signed by the pro.
prietors of 150,000 acres in British India, engaged in the
pro •
ducton of indigo, raw silk, sugar, and tobacco, in fa.
sour of equalization of the duties on the produce of the
East and West Indies.
On the motion of Mr. LABOUCHERE the House
went into Committee; Mr. BERNAL in the chair.
Mr. LABOUCHERE then moved, "That it is expe.
dicnt to reduce the duty payable upon rum or rum shrub,
the produce of any British possession within the limits of
the East India Company's Charter."
Mr. G 0 UL BURN had certainly expected: the ques-
tion would have been discussed as to what effect this pro-
posed measure would have on the system of slavery in In-
dia before the question was agreed to. It had formerly
been the custom, in considering eases of this nature, for
the Members of the Government either to investigate the
sut*et in the recesses of their offices, and to receive infor-
mation from all the parties interested to guide their judg-
ment, and to come to the Howe without any previous an
nouneement of their opinion. or to come down to the Ilouse
and to propose a Select Committee, before which the
different parties interested would have an oppor-
tunity of urging whatever they might think necessary for
the protection of their interests, and that Committee
having considered the whole of the evidence, reported
thereon to the [louse. In the present instance, however,
neither of these courses had been followed. The West
In ha interest had been lulled into security by the Govern-
, ment, who now turned round upon them. The ease was
altogethera new one ; and he should be glad to hear from any
gentleman connected with the Government on what gr,,urni
they rested the arguments for the adoption of the course
which they had pursued. He was not now merely plead-
ing the CMS Of that interest with which by his property