The Sun.
London, England, 1847-06-29 00:00:00

granted to Ireland it not to England also ?
After the signal defeat which the measure had sustained
on a previous occasion, who would have thought that
such a measure as the present would have been pro-
posed by her Majesty's Government. The present popu-
lation of this country were suffering from the effect of the
measures which had been passed to avert famine in Ireland.
and was it fair, was it just to lay an additional burden
upon the people for the construction of railways in Ire-
land? If assistance were to be granted to Irish railway
companies, why was it not to be granted to the
distressed artisans and manufacturers of this
country ? The master manufacturers were fully,
prepared to offer more valuable security for such ad-
vances than any Irish Railway Company could propose,
and they could also employ a considerably larger amount
of labour. But it might be said that there were some
special reasons for proposing this grail. The Chancellor
of the Exchequer had said that he should not re.-
quire the whole of the 8,000,000/. which he had
borrowed for the purpose for which it was obtained, and
therefore he appeared to think it his duty to spend the
money in some way, good, bad, or indifferent. It would
be better to let the 620,000/. of surplus loan find its way
into the pockr'ts of the English people, leaving
it to fructify there ratio r than squander and waste
it upon Irish railway companies, thereby doing no good
to any person or company whatever. Entertaining these
opinions, he felt it to be his duty to move that this Bill
be read a second time that day six months.
Mr. WILLIAMS thought that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had done sufficient mischief already during
the nine months he had been in office without
incurring fresh risks and courting fresh dangers.
He had already reduced the balances in the Exchequer
from the sum of 9,000,0001. to 5,450,001., and had added
8,000,0001. to the national debt of this country. The
railways which it was proposed to assist had not made
out a ease to warrant such assistance being rendered to
them. The state of the money market was not such as to
afford the expenditure of so large a sum of money
as was proposed by this Bill. The Bank of England
and the commerce of this country was just emerging
from a most dangerous crisis, and this measure would
only have the effect of bringing about the same disas-
trous state of things ; and why was this danger to be
run for the sake of assisting or speculating in some Irish
railways ? Believing the measure to be wrong in prin-
ciple and injurious, he should give it all the opposition
in his power.
Lord J. RUSSELL had before stated that the pro-
posed measure was not at variance with the course
usually adopted by the Government. The Government
had felt it their duty to oppose the plan of the Noble
Lord opposite on two grounds, one of which was,
that there was before the House the prospect
of an immense expenditure for Ireland, and
the Government thought it unwise at that time to pledge
the House to the expenditure of 16,000,0001. of money.
Another reason was that the measure would not have
afforded the requisite relief for the people of Ireland.
He thought then, and still did, that railways were not
calculated to afford such relief as was then required.
The Government had, however, admitted that railways
and other public works, were the legitimate
objects of public assistance. There was
nothing either in the arguments used by the Govern.
ment, or the decision of the House upon that plea, which
was to preclude the House for ever from making ad-
vances to any Railway. The House had sanc-
tion invariably the application of large sums of
public money to the promotion of public works; the Bill
before the House was therefore in perfect accordance with
the practice of the House, and it was needless for him
to enter into any arguments in order to show that this
was not an exception to the ordinary rule. Looking at
the course of Legislation for Ireland for the past century
it would be found to be one calculated to degrade
and to depress the people, and, as in the present
case, thrown into a state of misery and starva-
tion in consequence of the failure of a single crop.
It was idle to say, leave the Irish people to themselves ;
the English people have done well, let the Irish do the
same. That was an unfair argument ; there was no
doubt that if the government of the two countries had
been conducted on the same footing and in the same
spirit, the Irish people would have been enabled
to equal England in its prosperity.—(Hear, hear.) There
were abundant reasons to be found in the late mis-
governed state of that country, for considering Ireland
as a country not to be governed upon general or abstract
principles, the present state and future prospects of
Ireland were most discouraging ; there was, at all
events, a considerable amount of reasonable danger with
respect to the failure of the potato crop. The land-
owners of Ireland had, in his opinion, very justly been
called upon to pay a large burden in supporting the poor
of that country. Under all these circumstances, it was,
in his opinion, the duty of the Government to assist by
all means in their power the people of Ireland. With
respect to the railways proposed to be assisted by this
measure, it bad been clearly ascertained by
very competent persons that they were such
as would amply remunerate the outlay of the
proposed capital. lie thought, therefore, that
by passing this Bill, the House would be
taking a step in the right direction towards the improve-
ment of Ireland. Measures had already been passed
calculated to afford immediate relief to that country, and
it was now the duty of the House to consider and pro-
vide measures calculated to raise and promote the future
permanent condition and welfare of the people of Ire-
.

land, too long delayed by unjust and imp-roper legisla-
lation. With respect to the charge brought by the Hon.
Member for Coventry against the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer with respect to the financial state of the coun-
try, the House would bear in mind the large amount of
distress which the Government had to meet and to provide
for. They thought that the proposed measure, as forming
part of a general and comprehensive scheme, was one
which ought to receive the sanction of the House.
Mr. ROEBUCK thought that the Noble Lurd at the
head of the Government should be greatly obliged to
the Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn, for having, at
an early period of the session, propounded a measure to
extend over four years of legislation, calculated to pro-
mote the interests of the people of Ireland. The last
was only part of a comprehensive scheme of that nature,
eohfimthethsepeegrcehateosft
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that
ansentence
hg aw,,
o
ould, if possible, endeavour to convince the people
this country what course the Government proposed
to adopt for raising the condition of Ireland. The
Noble Lord had alluded to the state of Ireland,
as resulting from centuries of English oppression,
the real oppression and the real injustice
was the Irish Church ; the legislation upon
that subject had tended to make serfs of the
Catholics, and to turn the Protestants into
oppressors.—(Hear, hear.) The sum proposed to be
expended was not for the purpose of alleviating the
distress of that country, for the Noble Lord had ob-
jected to the measure of the Noble Lord the Member
for Lynn, on the ground that railways were not calcu-
lated to relieve the distress of the people of Ireland.
The distress of the people of England ought then to be
looked at in a case where an advance was proposed to
be made which was admitted not to be required for the
purpose of immediate relief. He stated it advisedly,
that in this country the potato crop would prove a mise-
rable failure, the spring crops would be considerably
below the average, and the crops of America were not
calculated to be at all of an abundant nature. Was it,
then, for the Government, with such a prospect before
them, with empty granaries staring in their faces, to
squander what little money they had in hand? Was it
not their duty to keep the money by them,
to provide for the necessity which would un-
doubtedly come upon them? Then the railways pro-
posed to be assisted were said to be of a most valuable
nature, and likely to yield ample returns; if so, why
then did not the speculators, who had already it ap-
peared half-finished them, complete them? The Bill
proposed to take a large sum out of the savings of the
people of England to assist speculators in Ireland with
a view of regenerating the people of that country. It
was a wild and absurd chimera, one of the wildest that
ever entered into the head of the leader of any Govern-
ment. Let the Noble Lord attend to the legitimate
concerns of the people of Ireland, and not yield to the
rapacity of people on the other side of the channel.
There was something very peculiar about railroads in
Ireland, if they were so good why were they not
finished? But really now were these railroads such as
the Noble Lord, or any other Hun. Member would
wish to invest his money in? During the mania
patriotism in railroads rose to a great height,
the panic came, and shares which pointed to a fortune
fell down to the lowest depths of disappointment. What
was the last resort of these speculating individuals? The
unfortunate Chancellor of the Exchequer. He really
did not see why the House should be called upon to pay
up the calls, or make good the losses which any of her
Majesty's faithful subjects might have sustained through
excessive speculation. He thought that it was now the
time for the House to step in and prevent this first step
being taken in a course so ruinous as that proposed by
the present measure. It was a rule which nothing could
controvert, that the Governor of a country could not ex-
pend the public money in any commercial speculation
with half the advantage that the people could do for
themselves. The moment the state became a money
lender, it became a money loser. Unfortunately there
was a very large Exchequer to draw upon, but de-
pend upon it the time would come when the
Chancellor of the Exchequer would be called
upon to render a very strict account of his doings, and
one of the severest ordeals through which that Chan-
cellor would have to pass, would be to account to the
mercantile interest of this country how it was that he
dared to lay his hands upon the hard-earned savings of
the people of this country, in order to make amends for
past centuries of misrule.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord G. BENTINCK thought that the proposed
measure was a step in the right direction. The loan to
be advanced by this Bill differed in its terms from those
proposed in the measure which he had the honour to
bring forward. In his Bill, he proposed to lend the
money at 3/. Gs. Bd. per cent. interest, whereas, by the
present measure, the loan would be made upon 5 per
cent. ; and the Government having borrowed the money
at 3k per cent., would, by lending it out again at 5
tahhNel
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crthsortenhaosienel
ftwql
hrryuaoea3eann
consequence
ccap(pleocrfott
neoirtsotfhpsinaeiot.nnnhGgi
the statement
Government
yr e
per cent., clear 10,0001., in the shape of
proposalin-
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ey ian stl
liwhiche would
loan,
he intended to submit to the House for
thrsoaent rsnaon
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nh ce
comprehensive scheme for affording assistance to other
railways in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord
then proceeded to set forth the securities which could
be offered, the advantages to be derived from, and the
claims of the Midland Great Western Railway, the
Waterford and Limerick Railway, and other lines, to
the same assistance as was proposed to be given to the
railways named in the present Bill. He was quite pre-
pared to defend the policy of the Government in this
circumstance ; and he was ready to go before the people
of England and show that this Bill was not one intended
to feed the rapacity of Irish landowners, but one calcu-

Wed to improve the condition of the people of:lreland
without the imposition of any burden or tax upon the
people of Eugland. He most sin erely hoped that the
Government would be prepared to bring in a measure
to assist the railways, to which he had called the atten-
tion of the House, and he hoped the Hon. and
Learned Member for Galway would support the claims
of the Midland Great Western Railway to the assistance
of the Government.--(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and
Learned Member for Bath had spoken of the fear which
there was that the potato crop would prove a miserable
failure. He believed that in that statement the lion.
and Learned Member would find himself mistaken; for
from every account which he had received from Ireland
the crops were in a most healthy and promising state,
and he had no doubt, trusting to the statement, " that
while earth lasted seed time and harvest should con-

thaw " that the potato and other crops of the country
would prove to be exactly the reverse of the predictions
of the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath. It had been
said that the proposed measure would tend to lock up
the money and derange the finaccial condition of the
country. It could be proved, however, that the effect
of expending money in railroads was the reverse of lock-
ing up money. The money already expended in railways
in the United Kingdom, was 96,000,0001., and the gross
revenue from them was, from passengers, 5,000,0001.;
from goods, 3,000,000/.; but taking into account the
charges previously made, these sums rept.. sented a con-
siderably larger amount of revenue than at first sight ap-
peared. The actual saving to the country by the railway
system in the item of " travelling expenses " of the Poor-
law Commissioners, was upwards of 5,0001. since their
accession to office; and the time saved in the travelling
of the Commissioners was three years and eight weeks,
out of the twelve years they had been in office. In the
one town of Leicester alone, the completion of the
Leamington Railway, saved to the town 60,0001. a year.
It was nonsense to tell him that capital invested
in railways was money thrown away—money
locked up, and could never be used again. The
sum of 160,000/. had been spent in aid of
M. Soyer's soup scheme, and he hoped the
country would next year contrast the advantages
derived from that service with the advantage to be de-
rived from the advancement of the present 160,000/. to
be advanced in support of Irish railways. Another re-
commendation in favour of the proposal was, that it in-
volved no expense for the support of a staff of officers.l
At the present moment the country was paying nearly
100,000/. a year as the salaries of the clerks and officers
engaged in superintending the execution of public works
in Ireland. That expenditure was justified on the ground
that it afforded employment to the people. Now, was
not that a strong argument in favour of the present
Bill ? Here were they advancing money to be employed
in the _execution of public works wanted ; involving
the country in the expense of maintaining a
staff of officers to see that the works were properly
executed. They were told that railways could not in-
crease the supply of food to Ireland. He, for one, did
not think so. At present the counties penetrated by the
Great Southern and Western, they depended mainly for
their fuel upon burnt cow dung. The construction of
the railway would so reduce the price of coal, that the
cow dung would be applied to the improving the land in-
stead of used for the purposes of fuel. He urged the
House, therefore, to pass this Bill. It would lead to the
introduction of British capital into Ireland, and in doing
that, they were taking a decided step towards putting an
end to the existing unfortunate and lamentable state of
the sister kingdom. Mr. Labouchere did not intend to
follow the Noble Lord, or enter into details ; but there
were one or two points in the Noble Lord's speech
which he could not pass over without notice. No one
in that House, he believed, denied the advantages of
railways ; and no doubt they would be productive of
great good in Ireland. But if they were to be encou-
raged in the extravagant manner proposed by the Noble
Lord, they would involve this country in ruin without
attaining the great object they must all have in view.
What was that object ? Why the alleviating the dis-
tresses of the people while suffering from the effects of
an unforeseen calamity, and it could be no remorse upon
the Government that they had taken the means that
they thought were best calculated to mitigate the suffer-
ings of the people. At all events, whatever the Noble
Lord might say to the contrary, he believed the people
of this country did not begrudge the money that
had been expended in the execution of public works for
the purpose of affording the people employment. He
held in his hand the last report of the Relief Commit-
tee to be presented to-morrow, and from that report he
saw that, at the present moment, no less than 2,600,000
people in Ireland were receiving daily rating. He felt,
therefore, that had the Government not taken the steps
they have done, not only Ireland, but the whole of
England and Scotland, would have been involved in the
most frightful distress and suffering. The Noble Lord
had accused the Government with promoting useless
public works in Ireland, for the purpose of exercising
its patronage ; but he, as a Member of the Govern-
ment, felt called upon to deny that statement in the
most positive terms.—(Hear, hear.) He would not de-
tain the House further than to express a hope that
the House would pass this measure. He would not pre-
tend to say that it would be the means of relieving all
the distress under which Ireland was suffering; but he
would say that it was calculated to go far towards re-
ducine•'d the distress, and it was that conviction which in-
duce him to entreat the House to pass this measure
without further delay. He did not agree with the Hon.
and Learned Member, that this country derived no ad-
vantage from its connexion with Ireland; but, even sup-
posing that were the case, was it right that rich and
affluent England should forsake her fellow brethren in
Ireland when they were suffering from extreme distress
and suffering.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. LEI ROY said he should give his most decided
support to the measure of the Government, and he only
regretted that the sum to be advanced for Irish railways
was not larger. Still he must thank the Government
for having introduced the measure, and for the hope they
held out, that should any railways be found worthy of
assistance, the Government would not be indisposed to
render that assistance upon its being shown that they
were likely to turn out profitable and useful works.
Some thing had been said upon the state of the potato
crop this year. He cared not for what had been said
upon that score. Some of the letters he had received
from Ireland held out hopes, while others were no less
desponding, but he must say that at this early period it
was useless to speculate upon the condition of the
crop.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted, most sincerely,
that the great distress Ireland had latterly been
suffering under, would affard a useful lesson to
her people and teach them to depend upon a more
certain food than the potato.—(Hear, hear.) The state
of Ireland had been cruelly exaggerated in that House,
but he saw with satisfaction that it had arrived at the
period when it was determined to take a step in the
right direction. Upon these grounds he gave his support
to the measure with very great pleasure.
Mr. SHEIL was not unconcerned in the success of the
Great Southern and Western Railway, which passed
near to a small property with which he was connected,
but he supported this measure not so much upon that
ground as upon the conviction that it would be pro-
ductive of great good to the country at large.
Justice to one country was perfectly consistent
with generosity to another, and those who carped and
cavilled with this measure must bear in mind that Eng-
land was not giving this money, but only lending it.
Then, in lending this money, he maintained that they
were doing justice to their country, because it would
tend—it must, of necessity tend—very materially to im-
prove her manufactures. It was pernicious, then, to
say that this grant was only intended to improve Ireland.
Mr. Porter, in his "Progress of the Nation," proved that
the trade between England and Ireland had increased to
an enormous extent, as from time to time the one
country had assisted the other. At the present
time the trade between the two countries could
not be less than ten millions sterling per annum
and if they continued by measures of this sort to increase
the
necessityconsumption
continueof t
o intheecereepastee
of this country. He was ready and willing, and did ttuhreiy ng musttr trade
othre Ireland,manufce
ac-
knowledge the great generosity this country had evinced
cowards her sister ally, and he sincerely hoped, indeed
he felt confident that the gratitude of the people of Ire-
land would be commensurate with the generosity of the
people of England.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman concluded by passing a warm eulogium on
the late Mr. O'Connell, and urging the House, now
that the present Parliament was expiring, to give the
people of Ireland some pledge of its sympathies for
their severe sufferings and distress.
Mr. W. R. COLLETT supported the Bill. He said
that the Government would clear 50,000/. by the loan.
At first the Government threw cold water on the lend-
ing of,money to Irish railways, but now they found that
the Irish railways would afford permanent employment
to the poor, they came forward with this Bill. He
thanked them for it. Ile repeated what he said some-
time ago—that the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath
(Mr. Roebuck) had shown much ignorance on the sub-
ject of Ireland. Why he should wish to become trus-
tee of his Irish estate he was at a loss to know.—
(Hear, hear.) He bad taunted Irish Members with
wishing to promote this Bill for the sole
purpose of advancing their own interests ; but he (Mr.
Collett) held no shares in any Irish railways save the
South Western, but he held only a sufficient number of
shares in that company to qualify him to act as one of
its directors. He should continue to promote the wel-
fare of his suffering fellow-creatures, notwithstanding
the invectives and sarcasms of the Hun. Member.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL also supported the Bill. He
said the political-economical arguments of the Hon. Ba-
ronet the Member for Southwark (Sir W. Molesworth)
sounded very well as mere abstract pieces of reasoning,
but they came a day too late; they should have been de
livered at the commencement of the session. The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman the Member for Bath through-
out his speech had said nothing which could wound the
most sensitive; and this was rather remarkable from one
so prone to sarcasm as the Hon. and Learned Member.
But there was this novelty in his speech—he be-
, came a prophet, as he said that not only
would the potato crop fail, but that the corn
crops would be blighted. It was impossible, how-
ever, to tell what would happen. He dragged the Irish
Church into the debate, but it appeared to him (Mr. M.
J. O'Connell) that the Hon. and Learned Member
would be found wanting when any proposition was
before the House for altering the constitution of those
churches. But these matters were not strictly before
the House.—(Hear, hear.) The great object which all
the friends of Ireland should unite to obtain was employ-
ment for the people irrespective of the land, which from
its being the sole means of employment hitherto
afforded to the people, had led to much of the misery
under which that unhappy country laboured, and as a
great step in that direction, he should support this Bill.
Mr. M. GORE said as he had supported the measure
brought forward by the Noble Lord the Member for
Lynn, he should support this Bill; but if it had extended
to other lines, it would have been still more deserving of
his support.—(Hear, hear.) In support of this view he
read a statement from a work by Sir R. Kane, showing
how the internal resources of Ireland had been neglected,