The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-27 00:00:00

TEE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 27, 1847

Noble Lord that in time of peace, the Crown had
no power to enlist soldiers at all, except by virtue of
an act of Parliament. The power, as it now exis!ed, did not
warrant any enlistment for a perion of ten years, and therefore
this Act became necessary. lie would not detain their Lord-
ships any further except upon one point, namel:', that he had
been represented as stating thpt the condition of the British
so'dier was one of slavery. He had not stated any such thing,
but so far from it, he had, in order to meet that argument,
gone into a tolerably minute detail of what had been
done of late to ameliorate the condition of the soldier.
With reference to the application of this measure to
the marines, it was certainly proper and just that if Parlia-
ment sanctioned its application to the army that it should be
applied to the marines. It certainly would not be thought
necessary to establish a separate system for the two. He had
already gone sufficiently far into this subject before, and he
should not then detain their Lordships any further.
After a few words in explanation from Lord BROUGHAM,
The House divided, when there appeared:—
For the amendment—

Non-contents present
Proxies
94

Against it—
Contents present
Proxies
—lOB
Majority against the amendment —l4
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
committed.
Their Lordships then adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock

HOUSE OF COMMONS, April 26.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
SECOND READINGS.

The following- Bills were read a second time, and or-
dered to be committed:—
Lancashire, Cheshire, and North Wales Drainage
Inclosure Company's Incorporation.
Limerick Docks and Harbour.
REPORTS.

The reports on the following Bills were brought up
and agreed to:—
Ayrshire and Galloway Railway (Smithstown to Dal-

wellington).
Colchester, Stour Valley, Sudbury, and Halstead Rail.
way (lease to the Ipswich and Bury St. Edrulnd's
Railway Company).
Wolverhampton Hates.
',lartlepool West Harbour and Dock (Dock Extension).

GOVERNMENT PLAN OF EDUCATION.
Several petitions were presented for and against the
Government plan of education.
WESTMINSTER AND LAMBETH-BRIDGE

as looking back with astonishment to the opposition offered
to the measure, and looking back with even greater astonish-
ment that this opposition should he offered in the name of
civil and religious liberty. But would nut future ages look
!sack with still greater astonishment at the fact that
there were eight hundred thousand Catholics in this coun-
try, and that they were debarred the means of education.
Formerly the Catholics were only excluded with the Wes-
leyans and other parties from participating in the Government
grant ; but now, when it was' proposed to exclude. them
alone, he considered them to be deeply injured and insulted.
They were excluded by the construction which Dr. Kay
Shuttleworth had put on the minute of council about reading
the Scriptures in the sctsools. He considered this a most un-
worthy course, and the motion which he had to propose was
to put an end to all ambiguity and doubt on the question. The
Noble Lord the Member for the 'West Riding of Yorkshire,
said the other night that when he became a Member of the
Committee of Council for Education, he found certain rules
in existence which he considered FO important that he could
not consent to their being changed without the melee of Par-
liament. But he continued to say that if a notice for
giving aid to the Roman Catholics were communicated,
he would continue a Member of the Committee. It was for
that purpose, he (Sir W. Molesworth) had given notice, and
hoped the Noble Lord would give him his vote. He expected
also the votes of the Hon. Members for Dorchester and Tam-
worth on the ground of the liberal sentiments by which they
had Committed themselves to the country, and the Roman
Catholics the other night before the House. Now, it was said,
it was not expedient to meet this question at the present mo-
ment; who were to blame for that?—why Government, for
bringing it forward at this moment. But why was it expe-
dient I It was said that a general election was at hand—that
out of doors there was a strong feeling
against Roman Catho-
lics. Well if there were was that House to participate in
such feeling. Were the Members of that House to be the
mere puppets of the elective body in carrying out
their wishes. For his part he believed that House were in
advance of the people, and he considered a seat in that House
was the highest honour that could be conferred on a man, pre-
vided he obtained it by fair means. He said, then, let them
do justice to the Roman Catholics first, and then go to the
hustings and command their constituents to confirm the Act,
and, by heaven, he believed they would succeed.—( Cheers.)
The motion having been seconded,
Sir GEORGE GREY reae and said he would not detain
the House long in meeting the amendment of his Hon. Friend.
The Honourable Gentleman had twice risen to make this mo-
tion, but he had nothing to retract. He had pledged himself,
and he stood to the pledge, that a grant of assistance would
be given to Roman Catholics. The Hon. Gentleman had not
quite taken the right course to carry his
proposition ; and he
thought it would be far better to leave the matter in the hands
of the Government, and when the minutes were framed for
the purpose it would be time to discuss the question.—
(Cheers.) For his own part, he would a great deal rather
that a minute was quite ready
es, lay on the table of the House.
The Hon. Gentleman had requested that there might be no
doubt, no ambiguity whatever, and after the speech of his
Noble Friend there certainly was neither. For his own part
he might say, that if it were possible to lay a measure before
the House this session, the Government would do so, but he
would not pledge himself on the present occasion.
Lord HARRY VANE thought that the Right Honourable
Gentleman was quite right in the course which he had taken.
He was gratified to learn that her Majesty's Government were
going to introduce a measure on the subject, and he thought
that the minute, when it was introduced, should state expressly
the course which the Government intended to take in carrying
out their intentions. He regretted that the Noble Lord
(Russell) did not bring forward the question before this, so
that it might be set at rest. But after the discussion which
had taken place, be thought that no time should be lost, and
he trusted the declarations made to-night by two Members of
pre_ Government would be satisfaciory, and that during the
ent session the minutes would be brought forward. He
would, therefore, recommend to the Hon. Gentleman the pro-
prietyof withdrawing his motion; as under the circumstances,
he did not think it wise that he should proceed.
d be
tihnetrwodedugceed,,hovrwathiwehhattt
vitiamse,soonrahutndoerinwinhraet
rdmee,rtaatnioenes.. Hue,
owhojeueltdeddtoo
it,ao Lneeonsmealtietehrebliyevewdhio.tmtetbhee
circumstances.
ionrneStsuhii
question
na rr might
the great Protestant interests of the countr
He hoped he
might tell his Right Hon. Friend (Sir R. Peel) that not all
his protection, nor all his support, would enable the Noble Lord
to carry a measure of concession to the Roman Catholics, which
was inimical to the constitution of England, and thegreat
mass of the people. The great body of the ople
were opposed to any further concession, and hePe p
prehended that any measure of that kind would abe
hailed with the greatest disapprobation. According to the
report of the returns of Catholic marriages made by the Regis-
trar-General, the total number of Catholics in Englandwas
less than 300,000. That report only gave 2,230 marriages
celebrated among the Catholics in 1844, and from the circum-
stances of Catholics elevating niarriage into a sacrament, it
might be presumed that they would have all their marriages
celebrated in churches. He thought that when they had
heard the statements which had been made by the Secretaries
of State and the first Lords of the Treasury of the present and
late Government, that every exertion would be made to carry
this measure of concession to the Roman Catholics; but he
thought that the people of England would be too powerful for
them and would successfully resist any measure which had for
its object the payment of the Catholic priesthood in the exten-
sion of the public money to Catholic education. Ile would re-
sist any further concession, and he could not allow the speech
of the Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of State to pass, without
liberating his own conscience, and recording his determination
to oppose to the utmost all measures of further concession.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said that whenever his Hon. Friend
expressed any opinions in that House, however emphatic might
have been his declaration of them, so great was his (Sir R.
Peel's) respect for his integrity that he alwasis believed that
he expressed them with sincerity. He could not, therefore,
but believe that he would have shown more of courtesy and of
truth had the Hon. Gentleman extended to others the same
justice. For his own part, in the sentiments he gave ex-
pression to a few hours ago he was only inluenced by a desire
to act equitably towards all, and the only object he had in view
was to extend equal justice to the different classes of her Ma-
jesty's subjects. His Hon. Friend imputed to him a wish to
outbid the Noble Lord at the head of the Government in an
attempt to conciliate the Roman Catholics and liberal parties
lie could assure him, however, that this was not the case. He
had no such object in view, and if he had, he greatly feared
that that was not the move by which it could be
best accomplished.—( Hear. ) In giving expression to the
opinions which he did, he had only looked to the justice of the
case, and he apprehentied that in the course he took he
rather subjected himself to the loss of popular favour. His
lion. Friend said, that the entire number of the Catholics of
England was only 300,000. Now, if that were the case, he
would like to ask him what political purpose he could have to
serve in trying to conciliate this small number, who were but
the 148th part of the population. He did not think also, that
any measure in their favour was exceedingly popular in that
House, for he recollected that, not a week since, a measure of
concession towards them was lost by a majority of thirty-nine.
It was his decided opinion that the minutes ought to be made
to embrace the Roman Catholics as well as the other religious
partiespropose,l. Still he had no wish to press it, so as to embar-
rass the Noble Lord at the head of the Government. His ex-
perience of official life was too recent for him not to know the
difficulties which must surround the Government in dealing
with this question. The position of the Minister was different
to that of an individual in that course. An individual could
easily state a plan or bring forward a measure to carry out a
particular policy • but a minister had to consider all the cir -
cumstances by which
he was surrounded, and his official re-
sponsibility, ere be could agree to such a course. At present,
therefore, he (Sir Robert Peel) was content with the mea-
sure, and while he had taken the earliest opportunity of stet.
ing his opinion in favour of the Roman Catholics participating
in the grant, he would not be a party to
any vote eolculated to embarrass the Government. He
would hope, that after the speech of the Right
Hon. Baronet at the head of the Home Department, on this
matter, that the present motion would not be pressed.
After that statement, and the pledge of the Noble Lord to
introduce a special minute in order to embrace the Roman
Catholics, he thought the question might be fairly left in their
hands. He agreed with them in not pledging themselves as
to any particular time, as it might
embarrass them; it was
sufficient that for the rresent they were pledged to the prin-
ciple, and that they would bring forward a measure, after op-
portunity had been given them to maturely consider the
subject. He had seen enough of the difficulties of a Govern-
ment, under such circumstances, to admit of any other course
than this. Having made these observations on the question
before the House, he hoped the Hon. Member for Southwark
would not press kis motion to a division.—( Hear. )
Mr. VERNON SMITH hoped the speech of the Hon.
Member for the University
, of Oxford would open the eyes of
the Government, and tuat they would at once act on their con-
victions, and bring in a measure to promote the education of
the Roman Catholics. He did not think there would be much
difficulty in framing a minute, as there were Roman Catholic
bishops waiting to be put in communication with them on the
subject. They had already an excellent ground-work in the
British and Foreign School system now in operation in Ireland.
The question ought to be settled now, without waiting further.
No doubt the "No Popery" cry would be again raised,
but the Noble Lord should pay no attention to that,
bat act justly in the matter to all parties. At the present
moment, however, he trusted the Hon. Member for Southwark
would withdraw his motion.

community.
Sir B. INGLIS had never before had the advantage of
meeting the Hon. Gentleman behind him ( Mr. More O'Fer-
rall) on common ground before, and he could not refrain from
expressing the great satisfaction which he felt in so cordially
concurring with him as he did on the present occasion.
Mr. M. MILNES said that when it was recollected that the
Government gave funds for Mahommedan education in India,
it was at least surprising that there had been any objection to
include the Roman Catholics in the Government scheme, and
he deeply regretted that the Noble Lord had placed himself,
unnecessarily as he conceived, in a false position. by placing the
religious portion of the question, as he did do, prominently
forward, by making the grant to that body a separate measure.
When the Member for the University of Oxford had given his
unequivocal support to the principle of education, no felt that
there need have been no hesitation on the rapt
of the Government. Nevertheless, he did consider tha' it
was a defect in the measure, that the whole of the ersnt
had not been given solely to secular education,
He thought that it was quite an error to suppose that the
Roman Catholic church was opposed to the Scriptures being
read by the people. If the version authorised by that church
was read in the schools daily, their authorities, he was sure,
would find no fault with it. But looking at the many diffi-
culties which surrounded the question debarred him from any
wish to interfere with the religious education of the people.
A secular education was still somewhat unpopular. lie ex-
pected the nation would advance, and he thought the only sys-
tem which would certainly prosper, unimpeded by the diffi-
culties which he had alligled to. was one by which Government
provided for the secular part of the education, leaving the rest to
private effort, the Government only taking care that the schools
were conducted on high principles of morality. He, under
that conviction would give the Government his support, feel-
ing assured that they had to struggle with many difficulties
which they had endeavoured to overcome.
Mr. FORBES felt it necessary to state to the House his rea-
son for supporting the Government measure. It was that he
thought a necessary part o f the national system was that the
authorised version of the Scriptures should always form part of
the education of the young of the country. He would always
give his countenance to instruction in the Holy Scriptures, and
therefore he would oppose the motion.
Mr. AGLIONBY hoped the Honourable Baronet would
take the advice tendered him from many on both
sides cf the House, and withdraw his motion. He
(Mr. Aglionby) was opposed to the motion, not because it
went too far, but because it did not go far enough. He ad-
mitted Roman Catholics to participation in the benefits of the
Government, bat then there were some other sects excluded
and left unaffected by the motion of the Hon. Baronet. Why
was that ? Many Dissenters were excluded by implication.
But he referred more particularly to the Jews, who were de-
prived entirely of the advantages to be derived by other of
their fellow-subjects. He was sorry, indeed, that the Govern-
ment had not carried their measure much farther, and made it
much bolder at once. He was sure they would have met with
greater support than had been given them, great as that had
been. He begged again that the Hon. Baronet would with-
draw his motion
Mr. NEWDEGATE said the qustion was too important
that he should maintain silence, and give his vote without ex-
planation. He agreed with the Hon. Member on his left
(Mr. Forbes). He honoured the Noble Lord at the head of
the Government, for the manly way in which he had
brought forward his measure, disdaining to take his coun-
try by surprise. He repudiated the charge of bigotry which
had been thrown out from the other side of the House upon
those who rejected the spirit of this motion. He stood
by those sentiments and principles which had done
honour to this country, and entered intimately into
its constitution. Bigotry ! Why some of the Members of that
House set m to have been carried away with a fury for educa-
tion, till in the liberality of their sentiments, as they called
them, they opened the national privileges to Jews, Turks, and
infidels. He could not allow a charge of bigotry to be made
against him, for supporting principles which he defended
against a church which was encroaching, and which claimed
too much.
Mr. BELLEW, as a Roman Catholic Member of the
House, rose to explain his reason for voting in sup-
port of the Government measure, which was intended
to advance the civil and religious liberties of the
country. It was a matter of congratulation to the country
that it had a Ministry, whose life from the first had been given
in public to the advancement of these principles. The advan-
tages that would be gained from the measure were great, and
the amount of it nowhere so great as in this country. He
thought the measure was called for from the great amount of
ignorance which prevailed in this country, and though the
members of his own religion were excluded the benefits of the
grant of Friday night last, still he could not bring himself, on
that ground, to oppose the extension of education to others.
He thanked the Hon. Baronet, however, for bringing forward
the motion, but, after the pledges of her Majesty's Govern-
ment on the subject, he could not reconcile it with his sense of
duty to support the motion.
Sir WALTER JAMES agreed with the Hon. Member for
Cockermouth that the Government ought to have taken a
bolder course. He would be very glad to see his own opinions
of what he considered right carried out, but as from the divisions
existing among the people, this was impracticable, he would
extend the principle of equality towards all. As he had some
confidence in the Government, he could not suppoit the motion
of the Hon. Boronet.
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT was distinctly of opinion that
if the system of bestowing the grants of late years was to be
disputed, he thought the Noble Lord had acted rightly in
extending education towards all, and he thought the difficulties
of the Noble Lord would be aggravated by delay.—(Hear,
hear.) He disapproved of the principle of secular education
apart from religion as advocated by Dr. Hook, for he consi-
dered that religion should not be separated from education.
He thought the Noble Lord should feel satisfied with the
general approval with which his plan had been received, and he
sincerely hoped that, withont making any distinction of sects,
they wonid extend to all the advantages of education.
Mr. ROEBUCK said if the interpretation of the Hon. Gen-
tleman, who had just sat down, was correct as to the imme-
diate intentions of her Majesty's Government to bring in a mi-
nute to extend the advantages of education to the Catholics,
then the House would be saved a great deal of unnecessary
discussion. He feared, however, that this was riot an exact in-
terpretation. The lion. Member for Southwark was met with
all sorts of professions on both sides of the House. Would the
Noble Lord get up and tell them, either that the Catholics
were to get share of this 100,0001, or that he would bring in
a distinct minute for them this session ? If the Noble Lord
gave such a promise, he (Mr. Roebuck) promised he would not
trouble him again on this question. He was surprised that
the two Roman Catholic gentlemen who were connected with
the Government, had not opened their mouths on this question.
If it was my faith that was thus treated, I would not suffer the
contumely. Some Hon. Member, like the Hon. Member for
Warwick, would endeavour to raise a no popery cry, and that
convinced him of the evils of a mere sectarian education. It
was a proof that education should be directed to make men
virtuous and intelligent, and not to quarrel about religious
differences of points of faith. As far as he could judge from
the speeches of the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern-
ment, his fears were not that the House of Commons would
go against him, but that the country would ; and he knowing
this, that the House would soon lead the country, was desirous
of waiting till that time arrived.—(;Tear, hear.) This
seemed to be the actuating motive of the Government.
In talking so much about the faith of the Roman
Catholics, they seemed to forget the intolerance and illiberality
of many of the other sects that received aid from the Govern-
ment grant. The British and Foreign School Society was
one in point—for at their training school at Battersea they em-
ployed class-books attacking the tenets of the Roman Catho-
lics, and laying down rigid rules of religious conformity.
Neither Roman Catholics nor Dissenters could be admitted on
account of the regulations. If they passed this vote of
100,000/. the Roman Catholics would not be heard of more;
and if the next Parliament was a liberal House of
Commons, then, perhaps, the claims of tbat party
would be revived, but not otherwise. What is
the vote of the 100,000/. but to remove ignorance
and prejudice, and where in the country was it more required
than in those commercial and manufacturing districts where
there were large bodies of Irish Roman Catholics.—(Hear,
hear.) This was where education was most required, and he
therefore objected in tote to the educational scheme; because
it offered money to those who already had it, and refused it to
those who had none.—( Hear, hear.) He wanted some definite
pledge from the Noble Lord when he intended to bring for-
ward a motion to include the Roman Catholics. He ( Mr.
Roebuck) would not be contented with a general promise,
he must have a specific time given. If the Noble Lord had
the courage to avow himself, and at once bring forward such
a measure, he did not believe that ultimately he would
lose a single supporter.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman the Member for Bath had stated that he had not given
sufficient explanation, and had called on him further to state his
views. The Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark had
brought forward his motion in a fair and temperate speech, and
had asked him for some additional reasons why he refused to
accede to the request he had made. He (Lord John Russell)
begged leave tat say that his Right Hon. Friend near him, the
Secretary for the Home Department, had stated over again to-
night what had been stated on previous occasions, and the
grounds why the Government objected to the motion of the
Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark. That satisfied many
Hon. Members in the House, and they had expressed:them-
selves willing to leave the question in the hands of Govern-
ment. They had given them credit for the motives by which
they were actuated, and that they were satisfied with the pro-
mise of the Government. This had been the opinion of the
Right lion. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, of the Hon.
Member for Wiltshire, of the Hon. Member for Kildare (him
-
sell a Roman Catholic), and other Hon. Mernbeys. He( was satisfied with their confidence, and the distrust of the Hon. and
Learned Member for Bath---( Hear, hear)---and, therefore,
would not think it necessary to make any further
observations; for these reasons he would not t
enter
into further explanations on the question.—llhear.)
I'he lion. and Learned Member for Bath seemed to conceive
that no good men could act without some particular interest
was served, and he did not seem to believe that any member of
the Government could possibly have any object to effect except
their own. When every member had: been, in the utmost de-
gree, willing to relieve a starving and dstitute people,f
when a great calamity had occurred, and for whose relies
all parties in the State had conjoined to assist, whe
ther they be members of the Church of England, Protestant,
Dissenters or Roman Catholics.—(Loud cheers.) But the
Hon. Gentleman had given an expressive warning that there
were other populations which required the assistance of Go-
vernment in consequence of the great necessity in which they
were placed, and saidjthat he had observed a triumphant smile
on his countenance (Lord J. Russell's) at the expression which
had fallen from him. But if such were the case the smile was
not from the observations made by the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman ; but from the recollection that the provisions of
the minutes of 1839, had amply referred to the necessity of
which the Hop. and Learned Member complained. But
the Hon. and Learned Member hal a further complaint, and
had stated that if a Ministry had come into power by some
accident—and through the agency of its opponents—with any
merit of its own, it would feel that it was required, that it
would accomplish something that was great. To this he ( Lord
J. Russell) might reply. that if a city in the west of England,
sent a representative, who, without any merit of his own,
was willing to gain notoriety of his own, by carp and cavil at
measures which he himself was unable to devise, that if he wera
inclined to draw attention to his theories, without having any
particular measure of his own to devise, but was merely in-
clined to draw attention to theories which were never likely to he
realised, were they to be attended to?—(Cheers.) If a certain
city in the west of England chose to send a Member merely
from caprice, and without any merit of his own, he should re-
member that there was always a disposition to allow for the de-
ficiency. —( Loud cheers.) But the Hon. Member had stated
the example of the Hon. Member for Oxford, and that, in his
opinion there ought not to be any allowance to the Roman Ca-
tholics. But it was on this account proceeding on the notion
that all opposition was founded on selfish motives. In short
that there was no generosity—no consideration in any of the
proceedings of any Member of that House, who was inclined
to support the Government. But this he believed to be a
very
• imperfect view of the question, and without any reference
to the question of religiens (Titli°ll, "Prentd ia the Howe

Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL thanked the Hon. Member for
Southwark for making the motion ; for whatever it would lead
to, the discussion which had arisen on it must do good. What-
ever injustice the Government had done to the Roman Catholics,
in excluding them from the grant, they had believed in that
coarse they had done the greaten harm to themselves.
There was one point to which he was desirous of referring. It
was the treatment of the Roman Catholic prelates. They
ought to have been treated in an entirely different spirit, and
consulted in a more decorous manner than had been the case
One thine, however, he begged to insist on, notwithstanding
what had been said by the Hon. Member for the University
of Oxford, and that was, that the Roman Catholics should be
placed on the same footing as the other sects and portions of
this country. If the Hon. 13aronet, the Member for South-
wark ( Sir W. Molesworth) divided the House on this question
he should certainly vote with him, but he acknowledged that
he was not sufficiently impartial to give him any advice on the
subject ; but whether he came to the contest now, or at some
future period, he had fully entitled himself to the gratitude of
the poor both in this country and in Ireland.—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. LAW quite felt the difficult position in
which the Noble Lord (the Member for London) was placed.
But this much he would say, that he had well done his duty,
both to his country, to his party, and to the House. He had
himself given his ready support to the Government in the plans
which they had proposed, and he was quite ready to give kis as-
sent to the defence of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
Tamworth, which was conclusiveon. the score of popularity ; and
whether he looked to the late divhiastions, or to the feelings out of
doors, he was Protestant in stating t the plan was satisfactory to
all parties of the commurity. But what was to fol-
low was a matter for future consideratien, and whether the
plans to be hereafter brought forwardwere to be satisfactory
not only to the Protestants, but also to the Roman Catholic
gentlemen, who took an interest on this occasion, it would be
quite premature to discuss. whether the Douay version was
to be used or not, was yet a matter of question, and until that
was ascertained, it would be impossible to express any opinion
upon the matter; but this lie say, that whatever the plans
might be, that no plans, come from what quarter they might,
would be received with so much gratification as from him.
Yet lie must reserve his guarantee till any of those plans were
fairly before the House.
Mr. LIDDELL well remembered the time when, in oppo-
sition to those with whom lie had acted, he had stood by the
side of the Noble Lord many
}ears ago, when he was engaged
in carrying the Corporation and 'test Acts. The Hon. Mem-
ber for Kerry (Mr. M. O'Connell) had endeavoured to fix a
sort of charge on the Noble Lord, that he had neglected the
principle of general assistance, but to this the House, by its late
divisions, had shown that they were decidedly opposed, and he
must say, that seeing the difficulties to which the Noble Lord
was exposed, he felt it but due to
ehoi
im tot opposition to the mo-
tion say that on the pre.
sent occasion he should give his decided
of the Hon. Member for Southwark.
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said that no body was more
decidedly interested in the grant to general
the
eneralmeodtuicoantioonf tthhaen
Hon.we re
the whole of the Catholic body. but
Member for Southwark had at least brought forth this benefit,
that it had had at least this advantage, the bringing out ex-
planations which ought to be satisfactory to the whole of the
many yeti, known rrery Mem.
Catholic body. He bad for

without any reference expressed out of doors, without any re-
ber of the present Government, and he had not the slightest
doubt that the minute of council which had been promised ference to the opinion expressed by the Dissenters who were
would be laid upon the table, and he should be doing an jujus- connected with Mr. Baines, he would say that the hest pro-
ticvision that could be made had been made for the provision for
he was connected, ie to those gentlemen, and an injury to the body with which
in the event of a division, he refrained the poor. He might have the misfortune to differ from sceee of
from expressing by his vote his censsence in a ministry who those who hail taken part in the debate, but there appeared to
had exhibited such an en!igetened reeard for the welfare of the be in the observations of the opponents a singular forgetfulness
people, and who had the means, as well as the will, to confer of the ties which bound the several portions of society toge-
such an inestimable boon as that of education on the Catholic ther. He had the highest feeling for those who opposed
the plan of the Government, but he believed that out of
doors the highest respect would be felt, for an assembly
which had treated this important question in the way in which
it had been met, but he must say, in his own opinion, the best
possible plan had been devised for the education of the people,
and, he believed, that every member of the community would
be satisfied with a measure in which the greatest relief was
provided where there was the greatest need.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE was not at all surprised that the
Noble Lord had withdrawn the attention of the House from
the question immediately before them ; and ho was not sur-
prised at the question of the lion. Member fer Wilts. The
only object of the Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark
was to obtain a rescinding of the minutes of Council which
granted this relief, and if he went out alone, unless a specific
answer was given as to when a provision was to be made
for the Roman Catholics, he would go our alone and vote for the
motion. The whole of the difficulty had arisen from the secret
negotiations which had taken place with the Wesleyans, and
it was certainly owing to these understood proccedines that
the Government stood in the unfortunate relation in which
they stood on this matter. The Right Hon. Member fsr
Edinburgh (Mr. Macaulay) had stated that all the clear state-
ment which he had made the other night was neither more nor
less than a romance. But what was the real facts of the case ?
Why that the negotiation with the Wesleyan Methodists hail
not taken place at Lansdowne Honse, but at the Treasury, and
notwithstanding the assertion of Lord Ashley, who had so
kindly come forward to speak on the matter that such was not
the case, it was clearly evident that our Roman Catholic
fellow-subjects were to be sacrificed to the interests of the
Wesleyan Methodists. It was clearly stated in the circular of
Mr. Hughes, who appeared to have been the go-between
between the Ministry both with the Wesleyans and the
Church, and it was evident from that note that there was a
deeper intrigue—an intrigue with the Church by which the inte-
rests were equally to be sacrificed. By that note it was ex-
pressly stated that as an inducement to get up petitions Lord
John Russell had kindly consented to take charge of them.
What then became of the allegations of the lion. Member for
Edinburgh ? Why, what he }tad assented was substantially
correct. The truth was that the Church would get the whole
of the grant, for the Dissenters and the Catholics had both re-
fused it. Some promise had been held out that there would
be a provision for the Roman Catholics, but it was plainly as-
serted by the Hon. Baronet who was the Member for the Uni-
versity of Cambridge ( Sir R. Inglis) that if there was to be
any provision for the Roman Catholics that h e would most de-
cidedly oppose it. The Hon. Member for Edinburgh had
entered into a lengthy tirade on the general advantages of
education, and had blamed him for apparently doubting them.
Why who did doubt them in the present day. Certainly not
he; but unless there was some provision made for the Roman
Catholics, most decidedly would he oppose tke plan ' • but if the
Government would come forward and say expressly that they
would introduce a reeature for the education of their Roman
Catholic fellow-subjects, he fully believed that it would be
totally inoperative ; and in a few years the House would be as
heartily sick of it as they were at the present moment of the
new poor-law. When that law was introduced, he had told
them that such a consequence would arise, but he was then
discredited, and yet how universal was the disgust that was now
felt. Yet if the Government would give the assurance to
which he alluded, he would unhesitatingly advise the Hon.
Member the Member for Southwark to withdraw his motion.
alltehyo
cohuol
msoaosnterhsaavpepoetnootucd enough of
ftltiehossche. rospeeewthoerngetnhtelyetioheand
—when they had those State spies intermeeldndling with the vil-
lage affairs. They would say, "Oh ! it is a pity that we ever
eatisncghetmhoe.l%"Loßtstuetrgs eonotltehmeeL.ionrittbye,i.mhe.atil
tihme,
gaveyrs. e wayco congratulating ttuhl
had gotten the other night on his (Mr. Dunjctorimot'sh)loactmendey-
ment. He admitted it ; it was a great and
ma-
jority—but a majority obtained in the most ignoblepraaanner—
a majority obtained by truckling to bigot, y and making conces-
sions to one and to another, which deserved to be shown u and exposed. If the Roman Catholics obtained a benefit in these Government grants, they would obtain it on account of what had been said by the two Right Hon. Baronets opposite,
not because of any spirit of concession on the part of the Go-
vernment. It would have been well if the Noble Lord had
consulted those two same Baronets before coming to the House
with his measure, instead of going to the paltry pettifogging
sect, in conference at Centenary Hall. The House has been
struggling for many years to emancipate the Catholics, when
should they succeed ? The Noble Lord said in his speech they
might not succeed for some time—nay, he said, not for some
years. Some years! He (Mr. Duncombe) told him that
if :he might have succeeded at once, he might have suc-
ceeded now, if he bad come down to the House
and laid upon the table, whatever opinion Dissenters might
have formed, or even have expressed, a bolder scheme, one that
went further. If the Noble Lord had said to the House.
" Whatever faults it has, it off rs equal benefits to all equally;"
then the Noble Lord might have had to struggle with opposition
from the other side, but he would have succeeded, if not better,
at least as well as he did the other night against his (Mr. Dun-
combe's) amendment. But no, the Government had truckled
to their political opponents ; to the other side of the House ;
and their own friends, who had supported them when in oppo-
sition, had been sacrificed.
Mr. I3ROTHERTON felt that he would best consult the
interests of the Roman Catholics by leaving their case in the
hands of the Government. Ile felt confident that right would
be done them ; and although in favour of the principle of the
motion, considering the difficulties which surrounded the
question, and which the House, perhaps, were not in circum-
stances to value, he would vote against the motion.
Sir W. MOCESWORTII then replied—lie said he had
been requested to withdraw his motion, and among the rest by
the Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, whose judgment
he always respected. He ( Sir NY. Molesworth) had often been
assisted by the Hon. Member for Bath, but he could not agree
with him that night in his estimate of human nature in that
assembly. He (Mr. W. Molesworth) would respect the
Members on the Ministerial bench as gentlemen who, having
made a promise to bring forward a motion so, n for a minute to
include the Roman Catholics, would make it good. He would
on that understanding, with the per.nission of the House, with-
draw the motion.—( Loud cries of " No," from 1.0. h sides. )
Mr. BRIGHT wished to explain. The Noble Lord at the
head of the Government had spoken as though lie had last
year voted against the Maynooth grant, because it went to the
Roman Catholics. Now he begged distinctly to state that sui
was not his motive, and he then plainly intimated as much.—
(Divide. divide.)
Mr. J. COLLETT honed that the Hon. Baronet would
not withdraw his motion.— (Cries of " Divide.")
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD wished to know how the
matter stood ? Were the Roman Catholics to be admitted to
the benefits of the vote, or were they not ? Had a pledge been
given that they would ? If not. he hoped the Hog,. Member
would not withdraw his motion.—(Loud Cries of " Divide,
divide,") amid which,
Mr. HUME rose, and said he was gratified with what had
fallen from the Government, who had given their pledge for
the admission of the Catholics to a participation in the vote
ultimately, and with that he thought they ought to be satisfied,
without pressing the present motion to a division,—(Loud
cries of " Divide.")
The gallery was then cleared for a division, when there ap-
peered—
For the Amendment
Against it
Majority against the Amendment
Mr. EWAR l' then brought forward the amendment of
which he had given notice, "that in districts where there is only
one school receiving State support, children whose parents ob-
ject to the kind of religious instruction administered there, may
be admitted to the school without being sublect to such reli-
gious instruction. That appointments under Government
be not reserved (as proposed in the minutes) for unsuccessful
candidates for exhibitions in the normal schools alone, but be
thrown osen to general free competition, on the principle of
impartial examination." He thought that the proposition was
so equitable that no one could object to it. He would, therefore,
rest his case on its own merits, and would not take up the time
of the House with any observations.
Mr. AGLIONBY seconded the motion, and thought it so
equitable, that he would not picture to himself any objection to
the proposal. The proposition was as applicable to one class of
religionists as to another. To members of the Church of X ig-
land, Dissenters, and Roman Catholics. There could be no-
thing unjust in such a proposal, and he thought it the duty of
the Government to accede to it, as it did not give offence to
the religious feelings of any religious denomination.
Sir G. GREY thought that the resolution was the same in
principle as that which had been decided upon a few evenings
ago, and therefore he could not give it his support. 'f he
schools to which the Government aid was to be extended were
voluntary schools, and he thought that if the principle of this
amendment were adopted, their character would be entirely
changed, and many of them, if this condition were imposed,
would in all probability reject the grant altogether. He could
not, therefore, assent to the proposal.
Mr. V. SMITH thought there was a practical difference
between the two motions. He thought this was a great practi-
cal grievance, and Mr. Kay Shuttleworth agreed with him in
that opinion. He hoped the Government would accede to it,
more especially as there was no class of religionists who could
take offence at it.
Mr. FINCH.
ie
opposed the
to it,
bemoio
Majesty'„ Ministry asset. motion, and
ould bheefo believed,uriil to beif her
ut-
terly impracticable.
Mr. ADDERLEY thought that some great effort was re-
quired to meet the want of education in the country. He had
himself received a petition for presentation against the Govern-
ment grant, in which a great number of the petitioners could
not sign their names, but had to make a cross. '1 his showed
the state of education which prevailed, though they had peti-
tioned against its further extension. He though the Govern-
ment plan was the best that couid be carried in the existing
circumstances.
Mr. HUME was at aloss to understand the last Hon. Mem-
ber. He lamented the want of education, but he seemed to
desire no measure by which that ignorance could be got rid of.
The real question was to know how the evil complained of was
to be met. lie maintained that a system ef education should
be carried out in which secular education might be given to all,
religious education to follow. In his own neighbourhood, in
Norfolk, there was a population of 1,200 persons who could not
read nor write ; they had no school, and were it rendered im-
perative that they should have a Church Catechism they would
not have a school at all.—( Hear, hear.) He would support
the Hon. Member for Dumfries.
Mr. PROTHEROE could not look upon the proposition of
the Government as anything other than an extension of the
voluntary principle. As he believed that the ,notion if agreed
to would bring the Government in conflict with religious sects
in the country, he could not support the motion of the lion.
Member for Dumfries.
After a few words from Mr. W. MARTYN, which were
inaudible in the gallery,
re-
jected, he should certainly vote for the motion
Sir W. CLAY said though his own motion hado his
sen lion.
re-
f
Friend the Member for Dumfries if he pressed it. He thought,
however, after what the Government had stated, it would be
best to withdraw it for the present.
Mr. P. HOWARD would vote for the motion if pressed,
only he agreed with the last Member who spoke, that it would
be better not to press it.
After a few words from Lord HARRY VANE,
Mr. EWART said, after the general expression of opinion
by the House, he would consent to withdraw the motion.
The motion was then withdrawn.
Sir G. CLERK said that he had heard with regret that the
Noble Lord had no intention to apply
any of the grant to the
sNi
v)oaa:soi,
tethoh parochial schoolmasters
hsactl Irtieooao(bli mey
taaislnteerrt
efficient
wo
af
s a Ipe Scotland.provision,
iprovision.son oTher ro raised
Now,
to
he ostni gaysi.:eier dief
that were so, there ought to be some allowance out of the grant.
The Noble Lord said that he could not a gree to give any part
o(
of this grant to the schoolmasters of
Scotland, as 011ie grant was
intended to be only in aid of voluntar
ground was it, that, after a sufficient se) eff,
r.viee ut
F on
slnast
were to be denied to the parochial schoolmasters ? Yet it ao
peered that the parochial schools were to be subject to the
supervision of the Government inspector, and therefore there
was no reason whatever to deny them the advantage of these re-
tiring pensions. The principle of the retiring pension in no way
interfered with this matter, for the schoolmasters were to be
enabled to receive pupils, which, by the grant, they were au-
thorise] to receive; and he trusted, therefore, that in framing
the minutes, fg
su...c.ent attentiQp wqmid be
paid to this partici'.
lir point.

Mr. HUME trusted that the House would never give i
sanction to the motion of the Hon. Member. At the pi ese
moment the Scottish schools derived their subsistence from t
land of the neighbourhood, and it. was entirely o wing to that sy
tern that the people in Scotland were not in so educated a state
as they were forty years ago. He trusted that this system
would s ill be followed out; for he believed that it would be
eminently advisable to follow out that plan ; for he deemed it
unfair, that the money of the Exchequer should be sent to
Scotland when there was already such sufficient means in exis-
, tence.
Mr. FORBES MACKENZIE thought, if the money was
to be paid, that Scotland was as much entitled to a portion of
the grant as any other district.
Mr. HOPE attached more impr.rtance to the measure ofthe
sa!aries of the schoolmasters than to the reception of the
teacher pupils. .
•
Lord JOHN RUSSELL interposed to say that he had as
yet been unable to express any mature opinion, but he trusted
shortly to do so ; and certainly it would be a matter that
would engage his most serious attention.—(Cheers)—and a
minute would shortly be framed.
The motion was then withdrawn without a division.
RAILWAYS, PIERS, AB D HARBOURS (IRELAND)
ILL.
On the motion being read fur this Bill going into
Committee
Mr. HUME wished to know whether the Government was
prepared with any specific statement as to what they in-
tended to do?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that
they were.
The House then went into Committee.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
in this Committee his object was to grant a sum not more
than 6.)0,00/. The capital of the Great Southern and
Western Ireland Railway Company was 2,600,000/., of which
the paid up capital was 1,400,01)01. They had a power to
raise 500 RV. by way of loan, and he was ready to advance
another 509 000'. at five per cent. in six instalments ; and
he believed that most of the money would he advanced be-
fore the winter. The next railway which he proposed
to assist was the Waterford and Kilkenny Railway.
The capital was 250,000'., of which the paid up
capital was 125,0001., and to that company he proposed to lend
the sum of 113 0001. The next company was that of the
Dublin and Drogheda Company, the carital for which was
153,0001., with a power to raise 100,000! more, and to that
company he proposed to lend 36,0001., the whole of the rest of
the capital to be raised by calls.—(Cheers from both sides.)
Thus he did not propose to lend more than 620,0001., which
was to bear an interest of five per cent., secured upon the
whole of the works. While making this statement he had de
greatest pleasure in informing the House that the expellee of
the public works had been greatly reduced. Daring the last
six weeks it had been reduced from • 1,000,000/. a month to
600,0001., thus making a reduction of more than 400,0001.
By the reports for March, the sum paid in wages was 245,0001.,
while during the next month up to the 24th of April the sum
expended was only 125,0001., showing a reduction of more
than one half. This would unquestionably be a great relief not
only to the companies, but to the landowners.
Mr. HUME thought that great care ought to be
taken in granting supplies for such an object as this, and be
believed that Ministers must surely have forgotten what had
passed on a late occasion. At that time, when the Bank had
upwards of 15,000,000/. of specie in their coffers, and had
been granting discounts at three-and-a-half per cent. they had
refused their assent to such a measure as this, but now,
when the amount in the company's hand was reduced to
7,000,000/.
Several Members—No, no, 9.000,0001.

Mr. HUME—WeII he supposed that it was 7,000,0001., but
if 9,000,000/. the case was still the same. What was the
situation of railways in this country or aerosss the Channel ?
Could they borrow at five per cent. ? Could they borrow at
six per cent. ?—( Mr. Hudson, " Yes.")—He was glad to hear
it ; certainly his information had been different.—(Hear.)
He understood that to.day the Exchequer-bills could
hardly be diicounted. Were these the times when
the Government should propose to make large advances for
works in Ireland which would not benefit the people ? He
thought not, and he hoped the hour of the night was such that
Mr. Greene would report progress and ask leave to sit again.
He moved to that effect.
Mr. ROEBUCK seconded the motion of the Hon. Member.
Mr. GOULBURN was of opinion that the Hon. Gentle-
man's motion ought to be acceded to.
Mr. B. OSBORNE said he felt he was taken by surprise
by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer. He was surprised, too, that before so many
Irish representatives, there should have been no one to speak
upon the vote but himself. Had he not taken it up, the vote
would have passed sub silentio. He specially repudiated the
bestowment of the money as a boon. He expected that the
Chancellor of the Exchequer would have proposed a sufficient
sum to be laid out in a remunerative manner. He would not
say the sixteen millions, for he thought the Noble Lord (G.
Bentinck) was wrong in that; but he wished the Right Hon.
Gentleman had proposed something other than 600,000/.,
which could do little more than help such as perhaps the Great
South-Western Railway.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER saw that
there was likely to be an Irish debate, and he would accede
to the Hon. Member's motion, unless they would consent to
an adjourned debate.

Mr. ROEBUCK could not consent to any step which would
commit him to a principle which he repudiated.
Lord GEORGE BENTINCK said he had no objection to
the Right Hon. Gentleman proceeding with the Bill, but there
was "more joy ever one sinner that repenteth"—(Laughter).
He was glad to see that the Right Hon. Gentleman had at
length come to see the propriety of laying out the Government
moneyl on reproductive works. He was wrong in supposing
that his (Lord G. Bentinck's) plan was an indiscriminate
system of loan. But that was a fault which he thought cer-
tainly applied to the scheme of the Right Hon. Gentleman.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained
that his plan was to lend only in case of one half of the capital
being paid up. And in the particular case alluded to 1,400,000/.
had been paid up out of a capital of 2,600,000/.
Lord G. BENTINCK said his plan distinctly was not indis.
criminate, for he proposed lending to those companies only
where one. third h. d been paid up of the capital. He
found now that his calctlations had been too low. He
would ask what was the state of the money market now ?
Wer! not Exchequer-Bills at 4s. discount, and would it not be
necessary for the Right lion. Gentleman to raise the interest
on them.—( Hear, hear.) All he ( Lord G. Bentinck)
wanted was to raise 4,000,000/. every year for four years. and
if his proposition had been assented to three months ago the
large expenditure now made on unproductive works
in Ireland would have been saved. He hoped the
Right Honourable Gentleman would give them some
information on the money market, and on the
state of trade. He wished to know what would be the effect
of the large export of gold that would be still required. He
wished to know was it railway legislation that raised the dis-
count en good bills to 7 and 8 per cent., and that reduced
Exchequer bills to 4s per cent discount ?" He asked whether
it was the intention of Government to allow things to proceed
on this downright course till the country could ne longer bear
it, or whether it was the intention to make some relaxation of
the rules relative to the currency, by which, after the issue of
fourteen millions of bank notes, the Bank of England was
restricted from isuing any further amount, unless it had gold
in its coffers to meet the issue.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
Noble Lord had touched upon a subject which it would be
most inconvenient, at a minute's notice, to discuss, especially at
that time of the night ; he would, however, in answer to the
Noble Lerd, say that he, with 'others who took so low and de-
sponding a: view of the state of things, took an erroneous view
of the circumstances bf the case. The fact was that the Bank
had not restricted its circulation in the least degree ; and with
respect to the injurious effects of the Bank Bill upon that estab-
lishment, he would also say that that measure had not as yet
come into full operation, and he was not, therefore, prepared
to say that any course would be adoptec by her Majesty's Go-
vernment with respect to the Bank of England. Now, how
did the account actually stand? On the 29th of August the
amount of bullion in the Bank was 16,366,000/.
The circulation at that time amounted to 20,426,000!.
On the 17th day of April last (the last day up to which the
returns had been made), the bullion in the Bank amounted to
9,329,000!., showing a decrease of 7,037,000/. What, how-
ever, had been the reduction in the circulation ? It would have
been expected that there would have been a diminution to some-
thing like that amount. But instead of that, it appeared that
the circulation was 20,242,0001., thus showing a decrease of
only 184,000!. Let the House take the facts as they find them,
and do not let Hon. Members endeavour to increase an alarm
which unhappily exists by an exaggeration of the evils. Then,
again, with respect to the pressure upon the public, if the Hon.
Members would look to the returns, they would find an enor-
mous increase in the " private securities " of the Bank, which

every person, acquainted with the subject, knew amounted to
an increase of accommodation to the public. It had also
been very generally reported that a great pressure had
been made by Government requiring assistance fr•m the Bank.
Now, by referring to the same dates, Hon. Members would see
that on the 29th of August the Government securities held in
the banking department of the Bank of England amounted to
12,961,0001., private securities 12,395,000/. On the 17th of

April the Government securities had fallen to 11,677,0001.,
showing a diminution of 1,284,0001.; the private securities on
the same day amounted to 17,111,0001., showing an increase
over the amount held by the Bank on the 29th of August of
no less a sum than 4,716,0001., and on the 3d of April the
private securities in the Bank amounted to 18,627,000/.,
thus clearly showing an increased accommodation
given to the public of a sum of no less than
between 5,000,000/. and 6,000,C00".' while the Government
securities have been diminished by at least 1,000,000/.
The Government Securities in the Bank had net been reduced
by the present year, as compared with last 284,0001. The follow-
ing was a statement of the Government Securities held by the
Bank in the present sear t—On the 2d of Jan., 12,824,000/. ;
on the 9th of April, 12,757,000/. ; on the 16th, 12,757,000/.
Compare that with the three corresponding weeks in April,
the Securities were—on 3d April, 11,900,0001.; oA the 10th,
13,534,0001. ; and on the 17th; 11,677.000/. In 1846, on the
4th April, the Securities held were 13,136,0001. ; on the 11th,
14,437,0001. ; and the 18th, 13,967,0001. ; so that, contrasting
corresponding periods, the difference of the Government

securities was only in the greatest difference 1,584,000/., and
in the least 284,000/. This would show that the Government
had not acted in the manner described by the Noble Lord (the

Memberforiynn). What he rose principally to state was
that his Noble Friend opposite was quite incorrect in asserting
that there had been any diminution in the circulation of the
Bank of Engl-id, or that there had been any diminution in
the system on which they carried on their private trade, by the
Government pressing on them for any assistance. Such was
net the case, and if the Bank had not grit a larger
amount ef circulation than it had at
_nowledge present,
it did not arise from ay want of k
or from the fault or negligence of the Government Havin said this much, he would conclude his observations,
trustingg that he had satisfactorily explained the ease to the House and
the Noble Lord.
Several members here rose for the purpose of addressing the
House, and after some confusion
Sir J. GRAHAM said that it was probable that he rose for
precisely the same t
obj which had induced many
other Honourable Membersec to be anxious to address
after the latter par
the House. He t must say that he thought that
Member for of the speech of the Noble Lord the
Lynntt was indispensably necessary that the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, without the loss of a moment,
should make the reply which. he just mask to the House. He
must say, that he thought that the statement was remarkable
for its clearness and its perspicuity, and although it might not
be in all respects so satisfactory as they could desire, he bad no
doubt that it would have its due effect in diminishing those ex-
aggerated alarms, which had arisen from a misapprehension.
He had listened to that speech with the feelings which be had just
expressed, but he thought it involved a mo*t important question.
which it was too late to discuss then, and which, in the pre-
sent state of the monetary affairs of England, it became them
carefully to consider, not what were the wants of Leland, but
what was the condition of England? When they were Railed
upon to borrow 650,0001.—f0r that was the proposition—to
advance to the Irish railways after all the immense ad-
vances which the necessity of the case had compelled theirs to
make to that country in the last few months—it was too
portant a question for them to discuss. It was a question re-
quiring the most grave and serious consideratien of the House.
and he hoped that the Chancellorlof the Exchequer would con-
/.sent that they should now report progress add resume the con-
sideration of the subject at a future time.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he
was perfectly willing to accede to all that Ind Right Holi.
Friend bad proposed.

After much confusion in the endeavour to obtain an ad-
j ourranent,
HUDSON said that he was quite sure that the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer would not wish his statements to go
forth to the world, without a counter-statement along with it;
for he was quite sure that in common justice to the Noble
Lord, the Member for Lynn, it was necessary to do so.—
( Cheers, and
great confusion.) The Right Honour-
able Gentleman bad, in bringing this matter for-
wa,d, alluded only to the quantity of the bullion,
now in the Bank, but had said nothing at all of the deposits.
In 1841, the amount of bullion in the Bank was only about
2,000,0001. or 3,000,0001. The pressure was precisely that
which was now felt in the commercial community. He per-
fectly agreed in the necessity of granting the assistance to the
Irish railroads, and was perfectly ready to vote for the amount
proposed.
Mr. THOMAS BARING said that in the whole of the
observations of the Right Hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer
he had not touched upon the real question before the House.
Tha' question was not so much as to the amount of specie in the
hand• of the Bank, as to the facility which the Corporation
gave to the operations of commerce. In old times the bank
was expected to provide for the contingencies of business, and
did do so, and the real matter to be considered, therefore, was
as to the system which it now pursued.
Mr. FORBES could not but express his surprise that when
the Government had been voting 8,060,000/. for the support of
the Irish poor, that se much debate should ensue on a grant of
500,0004, which was certain to return its own interest.
Mr. J. A. SMITH wished to say a very feat words before
the House adjourned.
air. ABEL SMITH said that a general want of confidence
prevailed throughout the country with respect to the Bank of
England, and he thought that one of the evils under the exist-
'orz
Bank Bill was that requiring a large amount of ‘‘ rest.
lie h. sight that if the Bank were allowed to increase its cu-
m! it would tend greatly to remove the state of alarm
wh-ch existed throughout the country. He had never known
a feeling of alarm so general and wide spread as the present
had been for the last few days, and he must say at the same
time that, in his opinion, the alarm was totally unfounded.
After a few words from the Marquis of GRANBY and Mr.
MARX PHILIPS,
Mr. NEWDEGATE said, that in his opinion his Noble
Friend the Member for Lynn had been treated unfairly by the
('h tricellor of the Exchequer. His Noble Friend did not say
that a restriction of the issues had taken place, but it was
Itk..ly that such would take place.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER in answer
to a question put to him by Mr. Mark Philips, said that it was
his ,ifiention to adjourn the further discussion of the measure
until this day.
The House then resumed, the Chairman reported progress,
and obtained leave to sit again.
LANDED PROPERTY IMPROVEMENT (IRELAND)