The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-13 00:00:00

portion of the money, proposed to he advanced by the
Covet ninent, would go to the Established Church. It
was right that such should be the case. Zeal aid acti-
vity would et cure the largest share. The Government
sere assailed on all sides by petitions got up again:
a plan, in carrying out which they deserved the
support of the whole of the community, especially of
those who were bound, from all previous experience, to
suppirt them, but who now opp-sed them. Mr. Taylor
then described the narrow-minded views entertained by
the Church of England in former years, and contrasted
them with the liberality of opinion now generally ex-
prc sled by that chui eh, and abandoned by the old ad-
vocates of t.leration, and concluded amidst loud cheers.
Mr. STACEY spoke merely in approbation of the
scheme of Government, and was delighted to see Mr.
Taylor at his old work of labouring for the amelioration
of the civil and religious condition of mankind.—(Hear.)
Mr. B. S. PHILLIPS, a gentleman of the Church per-
suasion, rejoiced in advocating the measure of Govern-
ment, and spoke of the unbounded liberality of those
who were at the head of that religion in educating the
poor.
Mr. W. LAWRENCE said that if the Government
bad consented to leave the whole in the hands of the
dissenters, not one word would have been heard of this
opposition. He then commented upon the good ten-
dency of the measure in every respect.
Dr. LYNCH was agreeably surprised and delighted at
seeing so fine a field day for the support of education,
and so little chance for those who opposed it. He con-
sidered that great praise was due to her Majesty's Mi-
nisters for propounding so noble a plan for providing,
amidst the unexampled difficulties which surrounded
them, the means of a sound moral education for the
children of all classes of the community, without respect
to creed, sect, or party.—(Hear, hear.) They pursued
the proper course to ensure the happiness and to elevate
the condition of the labouring classes. The long and
exaggerated sentences which they heard about interfer-
ence, tyranny, poison, were mere bugbears, mere poetic
hyperboli, calculated only to frighten children.—(flear,
and laughter.) The present means of teaching the
children of the poor, and even of the middle classes,
were most defective. Why should a broken down butcher,
or baker, find a refuge in the character of schoolmas-
ter? Why should the dishonest insolvent be encouraged
to turn teacher of children upon the failure of his other
experiments, and cheat both parent and child with im-
punity ? That tremendous evil would be corrected by
the inspection, without which it was absurd to attempt
to carry out any proper system of education. There
was no intention to churchify or to proselytise the ris-
ing generation. On the contrary, the only effect or de-
sire was to place them in the road to truth and virtue,
and to make them useful members of society, whether
Protestants or Roman Catholics.— (Hear.) In Prussia
there were three millions of children annually taught by
the State. America was still more liberal. In Prussia
the commercial classes were taught English, French,
German, mathematics, physics, history, and geography ;
and the education of the poorer classes was proportion-
ably enlightened. The statistics of education submitted
to the Court reproved their neglect. In despotic Austria
only 34,5001. were expended in forty millions of popu-
lation. The Government had taken the first step in the
right direction. They would impart to all the dements
of education which had at the present time become a
necessity, without cramming them with knowledge
only calculated to make our poor discontented with their
condition in life. Arkwright, Watt, Hunter, Faraday,
Cuvier, Haydn, Herschel, and a thousand others who
had risen from the lower ranks to eminence by perse-
verance, and who had left by their discoveries in science
an imperishable name, and made mankind their debtors,
were self-taught, or had only the rudiments of education.
They were only taught to read and to write. Genius
accomplished the rest.—(Hear, hear.) He gloried to
see Mr. Richard Taylor, in his advanced years, witness
the triumph of the principles which that enlightened
veteran had from the earliest period of his life advo-
cated.—(Cheers.) Ile gloried, too, to see a Jew rise in
the Court of Common Council, as a member of that body,
and :in instance of the increasing liberality of the citizens
of London, to deliver sentimehts shisb did honour to the
head and to the heart of their new acquisition.—(Cheers.)
Mr. WIRE said that all arguments used in favour of
th, Gov, ronent tnessure were grossly fallacious..,nd all
the statistical details were just as fallacious. He con-
demned the interference of the State as not only wholly
unnecessary, but as calculated to strike a blow at the
independence of the people about whose education the
Government never threw away a thought until they
.had
educated thern,elves ar, ar.) It was the object
of the Government not to make the peolle religious, but
to keep them in subjection. Mr. Wire, in comparing
the population of other countries with those of England,
insisted that this country sv:,s more intelligent than any
idea
other on the face of the earth. He deprecated the
of giving to Government functionaries such a super-
' visit n as the inspectors were to have, and of their
establishing an indefinite influence and patronage, and
he contended that the whole plan was part and parcel of
, the atrocious system of centralisation which was now
unfortunately so prevalent.

tion than the Chureh, who, finding their system failing
now sought tho aid of the State ; tut Dr. Hook was of
or union that the Church should educate the children of
its members. He denied the correctness of the doctrine,
that " if education was good for one, it was good for all."
Why, where would they stop ?—(A voice, "Nowhere at
all.") Would they carry the higher branches of educa-
tion to the plough tail ? because, if the principle were
admitted, all must be placed on an equal footing with
respect to education. They could not draw a line of de-
marcation.—(Cheers.) It was a most dangerous doctrire.
when so many prejudices prevailed as there did upon the
question of education, it would be almost impossible to
scuhpuprocrht .
comply Th e
carry out one general scheme ; and if the Dissenters did
not avail themselles of it, they would be taxed for its
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great mass of the people, would be benefited by it. The
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to ordaneort,haenrd;tosomheeremfaarks, b
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istl that r:s:
rather personal nature, followed, between
several of the
members.
Mr. LAWRENCE who had rather h astrly exclaimed
"Question Question !" claimed a right to do so when
he thought a speaker had said enough, and commenced
trespassing on the time of the Council. In the House of
Commons, the cry of " Question " frequently settled the
question.—(Laughter.)
Another GENTLEMAN observed that those in favour of
the proposition must submit to such observations if they
thought proper to introduce such glaring motions.
After some little acrimony,
Mr. DE JERSEY proceeded to say that despotism was
prevented by local influence, and that the Government
acted improperly when it sought to moncpolise those
local interests. He was opposed to any system of
education which would prevent men, as the Government
scheme would, from being independent.
Mr. ANDERTON said the question before them was
whether they did or did not agree in the scheme of
education proposed by the Government. Now he con-
fessed he was much surprised that any opposition had
come from the gentleman who had just sat down, as at
all seasons and on every opportunity he had strenuously
advocated the education of the people. He had even
solicited their aid for schools with which he was con-
nected ; but now they found him doing all he could
to destroy the fabric be had assisted to raise.—
(Hear, hear.) There never was a greater fallacy
in the world than this uttered by him—that the pro%
posed plan would destroy the principle of voluntary sub-
scriptions for the maintenance of schools, because the
object of the Government was to aid and assist these
schools, not solely to maintain them.—(Hear, hear.)
Why, the Lord Mayor and the Aldermen, and, in fact,
all of them, had been frequently called upon to aid by
subscriptions schools whose funds were inadequate to
maintain them; in fact it was but yesterday that the
Lord Mayor attended a sermon in St. Sepulchre's, which
was preaohed in aid of a school in that parish, which
educated about 100 children, but which,- from removals
and other causes, had got 120/. in debt. They all knew
the great exertions Mr. Wire had made on behalf of
education, and that he took great interest in a school in
his neighbourhood, that he was the schoolmaster, and, in
fact, a father to the children.—(Roars of laughter.) This
school was supported on the voluntary principle ; but if
the funds fell off, what objection could he have to apply
to the Government and say " The school is in want of
funds. I can educate more children. Will you give as
funds to accomplish so desirable an object ?"--(Hear,
hear.) To talk of education destroying the indepen-
dence of man was absurd. In his opinion education
made men independent.—(Hear, hear.) Give the slave
education and he becomes a free and independent man.—
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman was about to refer
to the circular issued by the Government, when he was
interrupted by
Mr. WISE, who said that it was not an authorised
document—it had not been set agreed to. It might be
tniterially changed before it was adopted. It had even
been charged five times since first issued.
...r. ANDERTON said Mr. Wire had opposed the
Church, but now he found the Church becoming more
liberal, he turned and said. " No; we will have nothing
to do with you. This is a scheme supported by the
Church, and what is supported by the Church cannot be
good and therefore we will have nothing to do with it.'
But if the Church had opposed the plan, no doubt the
Dis,enters would have favoured it. Where was the
obi ctionable power of the Government? The Com-
mit ee of the Schools are to have the power of dismiss-
ing the master." Surely, there could be no objection to
that. They were also empowered to select the books,
and the mode of discipline to be adopted. Whv, what
more could be required?—(Hear, hear.) "He would
have no authority to dictate what should be done in the
management of the school, and would not be allowed to
(afar his advice, except wished to do so," by the School
Committee. What honest Dissenter could object to
that? No honest Dissenter could.—(Hear, hear, and
cheers.) If they were sincere in their desire to see the
people educated, they would not oppose one of the
greatest blessings ever proposed by a Government.—
(Hear, hear.) Mr. De Jersey said in his statement, that
they had room for 400 children; but that they could not
get the requisite number to attend. But this might
arise from various circumstances. Perhaps the masters
were unable to teach them; that was one great failing,
as a great proportion of the masters in these schools
wanted teaching as mach as the scholars. In IsB4
the report of the British and Foreign School
Society stated that 150,000 children were then growing
up in London without education ; and that within a
radius of a quarter of a mile. In the neighbourhood of
Barbican, there was a population of 18,000, out of whom
the number of children attending day schools did not
exceed 300.—(Hear.) This was in the city of London ;
and the voluntary sytem had not been able to keep pus
with the number of children who stood in need of educa-
tion. A meeting was held in the hall, under the auspices of
Alderman Johnson, in order to raise 500 for a school ;
after it an application was made to the Court to defray
the expenses, or that they might not be taken out of the
fund collected, end Mr. De Jersey was in favour of that
motion.—He hoped that they would pass an unanimous
vote in favour of the Government plan. The Govern-
ment would not be thought to do their duty if they
flinched from carrying it out.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. CASE! said, when he was told that there were
150,000 children in London without education, he would
not be a barrier altogether to the plan of the Govern-
ment. It was the duty of a paternal Government to
educate her children, but he was opposed to any system
of education which partook of a compulsory character;
he did not, therefore, decidedly object to the scheme.
There were, however, several details which might be
materially improved.—(Hear, hear.) He was glad to
find the Government earnest at last with respect to the
education of the people.—(Hear, hear.) In his opinion
the voluntary system was inadequate to educate the
children of this country as they ought to be educated.—
(Hear, hear.) A great deal had been done in some dis-
tricts; but, speaking generally, he considered that
the voluntary system had proved a failure, and
that some aid should be received from the State.
especially as the greater proportion of these schools (and
he had considerable experience in them) were not sup-
ported as they ought to be, and therefore no taxation
would be more palatable than one which was raised for
educating the juvenile mind. Besides the Church of
England and the Dissenters, there were a large number
of children who belonged to neither the one or the
other, who shoulo be induced, as much as possible, to
avail the maelso. s of the education which would be afforded
to them.
AL. PRENDERGAST considered that the Government
would be happy to avail themselves of any suggestions
from any quarter, which could render the system they
were about to carry out more • ffactual ; and with that
view they had, no doubt, so extensively circulated the
minute which had been agreed to by the Council. It
certainly did not partake of a bigoted or sectarian
character. For every sixpence to be given by the
Government one abiding must be raised by voluntary
subscriptions ; and no persons could receive it for
echools with which they were connected unless they had
given their shillings—(Hear)—and the Government, in-
weed of wishing to take the power trom the people in
this matter, had put the whole power in their hands,
thus showing thar they bad the highest confidence in
the voluntary principle. Mr. De Jersey, and others who
opposed the Government plan, had not had the hardi-
nood to propose a better plan, but they said they would
one day be able to accomplish all that was required,
although they admitted that as yet the voluntary prin-
ciple had failed. But hew much crime, which
might be stayed, would occur in the -interim ?
The members of the Established Church had come
forward in the most handsome manner, and those
who opposed the system which the Church
supported, seemed to do so on this ground—that the
Church could save more shillings than they could, and
therefore they would have nothing to do with it.—(Hear.)
Mr. Baines's argument that the Government Inspec-
tors would exercise a kind of despotism over the pupils
and the teacher, and combine together to prevent the
teacher from obtaining a situation elsewhere if he had
the misfortune to lose his situation, was the most mon-
strous he ever heard. Why they had no power to dia-
-1 miss, and it was unlikely that theywould concert
together to deprive a monitor of his 10 _ /
a year, or fur
the purpose of
crushing a teacher because he would not
succumb to them.--alear, hear.) Mr. Baines' book was
the worst be had ever re .
ad —(Cheers.) He had been a
teacher in a Sunday-school, and he found that what
was taught one Sunday was forgotten by the
children by the next—or that in fact they were mote
ignorant—(Cheers)—thus showing the importance of
day schools in connexion with them. He was afraid that
the young people confined in Newgate were but a sample
of the great body of uneducated children in this country.
He bad just returned from the circuit, and had found
that those who were marked in the calendar as reading
but imperfectly, were, for all purposes, as uninstructed
as if they had received no education at all. The Go-
vernment wanted to .obtain good schoolmasters, and to
put a atop to the nonsense taught in many of the schools.
Is a proof of ignorance amongst persons moving in a
higher sphere of society, he could state that out of eight
coachmasters who came to him as a deputation on some
business, two could not write. He was not one of those
who considered that the Government had propounded
this scheme in order to help their fortunes at the elec-
tion, which was so close at hand ; but that they had
brought it forward for the sole purpose of benefiting the
people.— (Hear.)
Mr. AsnuasT considered that the Established Church
had ever taken a most reprehensible part against the
education of the people. Those in favour of civil and
religious liberty would be as desirous that Atheists
should enjoy their opiniens without molestation; but if
the Ministers and the Legislature were of that way of
thinking, and appointed Magistrates to dispense the laws
of a similar opinion, would they think that snob •
Governmeut was fit to be intrusted with the manage-
ment of the education of the whole people? Certaisll/
not. Yet the Government were to be intrusted wtith.ps_
m -nse patronage, which it was fviden
roved?would abuse. Wnat bad past experience P