The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-21 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EYE TING-, APRIL 21, 1847

be
argument against the justice of the measure.
The leading4_ feature of the scheme was the establishment
ye...7%a al teachers and stipendiary monitors. He had been
.4xious to see this accomplished, having the greate.,'-,
anxious
lice for the character of the schoolmaster, and
6:ring that really to influence education they should
thlehnot this point, and improve the character of the
th.,„t. aster before they hoped to improve that of the
Zi_ Ile therefore did not oppose this part of the pro-
p• Nor Nor did he oppose that part of the scheme
the established schools of industry, whether
'lll,:rheere agricultural or otherwise, in the rural districts.
lbw, !V" of opinion, was a sound proposition, and
he it his support. Again, the establishment of
_ workhouses and prisons was a system
*Ceti deserved the support of every one, fur there
haPO places where they were more wanted.
p`"4„ now stated those parts of the measure to which
tlies7l6 his adhesion, and he should therefore state
the to which he offered his objection. He objected
of that a schoolmaster should be a teacher
r euglen•—(Hear, hear.) It was not his pro-
province to meddle with theoretical doctrines.
to might be enough, as was done in Ireland,
Pertnit
religiohim to instruct in the general principles of
prig °u• If they could agree about those Christian
llit„ steles which ought to influence the lives of all—it
eh eh could establish a kind of neutral ground —on
tee various religions can meet as on a cora-
bet .bests—why_ then they should teach them ;
the i uojected that the schoolmaster should be made
estrutnent of theoloey. It had been said, let the
vt,Ptures be read every day in the schools, but he was
Ireg much afraid that it would become a mere task of
tislt'inund the repetition would prevent it from
This g into their hearts in the manner that it should.
systemhad been tried in Holland ; and those
twar„ ad ,read the report of Mr. Poussein were
Nal; that there they first made the schoolmaster the
efte4er a religion in schools, but in a year or two
and ch they were obliged to alter the plan,
admitand the clergymen of different denominations,
keunetbe.
system worked in the most effectual
teeet and had done ever since. When that great monu-
NA to the liberality of the people of Liver-
the tiler the corporation schools were established
!tau, gY of different denominations were admitted to
thect the scholars in the place where the pupils met,
thus mouton grounds of secular instrucion; and they
Rhinlearned that charitable intercourse between the sects
tts.ub.(nlod them in the bonds of union like one family.
stutatuojeeted to the sort of gratuity to the school-
:legit:lz
while he had no objection to providing
Bite emoluments, he objected to the d ting away
independence. He had another great
telehtel.On. that clause which ordered that where pupil
es were unfitted for the offices of teachers they
t.0„141o• still have a chance in some of the offices
h:.'L•eted with the excise or the customs. This
vf.,rOught was offering a premium to the less able indi-
e`_mals to offer themselves fur these schools, because it
044 in effect saying, "if you are not fitted for the one
I will at all events be eligible for the other." He
Ought that all Government situations should be thrown
'ttufeen....to public competition. He would have no power
e_otter any amendment on the second reading, or in
theeuut mittee ; and he had now to deal with it in a vote on
dot educational estimates. He therefore felt it was his
II,: to move the present amendments, though he had
tettriitie,
sdhioouubitdwhether the House could entertain them.
he be able to press them forward, he should
disbnitiLl'Y take the sense of the House on them. What
tla him to offer these amendments and not oppose
• ofe,„..Plan on the whole was, because he saw in it the traces
eieese_ •
s ession—of progress from a worse to a better sys-
e --but •
po_ it was not what he could wish ; still it was
the,Tevesst and he supported it. However, he
tf:'.ol but the Government, in making these grants,
eeee_onla
Veneitmake an annual statement of the ex-
sehuoiere for every educational institution; from
;70ceasils to the British Museum. On the present
'Sgaiu-s°,ll h e regretted to see ranged on this subject
.due the Government, some of the best friends of
tau-either,
-e who seemed to treat it somewhat. in a secta.
and
gof , narrow spirit—they seemed to realise the say-
. saudibras—
e "Civil and religions fears,
'These Set folks together by the ears."
than. parties seemed rather to give way to these fears
ever t° inquire into the real nature of this grant. From.
the e'r 122°tIve there was an inducement for the friends ot
Ish Xtension of education to be united, and no rea.on
"'ever
osithtiwe4 that they should differ. But he regretted that
and trusted that they ould not long
able to so. for united they were equal to anything, and
lee,t°seeemplish all that they desired. The Govern-
tishe however, still held the fate of the country in their
repriN and if they would but accede to the numerous
eerr'sentations which had beets made, they might still
leg tieut a great benefit for the country without alarm-
-454 e Prejudices of any sect, or disappointing the
the beig°f any party. Yet, although there was a bar in
bet as now Proposed, which seemed to him to be all
of 11Superable, he did not despair of the ultimate success
te %tine cause of education. With a wilting Government
ps,,,tvirse the plan, and with a willing Parliament to
„du_ e the means, he did not doubt but that in the end
01,1:tuition for all classes would be diffused throughout
Sir
WishesetAPlEß said if he were to consult his own
this
11. he should be content to give a silent vote on
I:lole,auit)c, because he believed that there were many
oe he 'embers far more capable of addressing the House
stit tu,Zadeet than him—but representing a large con-
and ta as he did—many of whom were Dissenters
tre,p,:inue Catholics—he thought it his duty to
short un the attt n idn of the House for a
hem"Ple•—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord at te
Ito the Government la-,t evening, stated to the
Cruse, that the deliberations of that Hou-e were
clv"rawed on the subject before it, and that many of the
41emb-re of the House had been called upon by their
—.anent& to give art account of their sentiments on
•
the Government measure. He (Sir C. N :pier) did not
know to whom the Noble referred. but as far as
himself and his colleague (Sir B. Hall) were eoneerneti
he could assure him that their th liberations had not been
overawed, and that they had n )t been asked or required
by their constituents to vote against the measure. He
must tell the Noble Lord that neither his constituents nor
any fear of the Governmeiit, or any body else could coerce
him, because in the course he intended to adopt with
respect to the measure he considered he was simply and
etnscientiously doing his duty. It was quite true that
Ilia colleague and himself had been waited upon by a
deputation of Dissenters and 'lumen Catholics, stating
that they objected to the measure. The Dissenters
°Thbieeted to it on the ground that enough of
-"teutieer had been already given to the Church for
e purpose of educhting the people, and that they
411 Dissenters had great objections to receive any money
fori educating the children of the sect to which they be-
onged; and that, therefore, they considered it most un-
'din that they should be taxed by the present Gevern-
letlerit for what they would derive no benefit from what-
:ex; whilst the Catholics upon the other hand, who
thrown entirely out of the proposed plan were of
°Pinion that it was extremely hard to be taxed for the
doctrines
of instructing other people in religious
Lseoetrines which they did not approve. The Noble
--"te rd also stated, that it was not the duty of
;-• Church to educate the working classes of the
country; but the Hon. Bart. the Member for the Uni-
versity of Oxford (Sir R. H. Inglis) disagreed with the
in this
Lord, as he stated that, before dissent was known
"us country, that the Church was the great educator
of the
41 People; 'and that even when dissent began and
"uerished, that the Church exceeded the Dissenters in
the education of the people. Nay, more, the lion. Bart.
Went still farther, as he said that he was distinctly
of cession, no grant should be given to any class
except to the Established Church; he (Sir C. Napier)
was surprised to hear such a sentence as that proceed
from the mouth of such an enlightened Member as the
Bon. Baronet. According to him, the education of the
People exclusively belonged to the Church, and that all
other sects, whether Wesleyan, Jew, or Catholic, were
to be deprived entirely of the means of education, so far
as aid from the Government grant was concerned ; or,
In other word, that those of all other denominations,
except those belonging to the Church of England, were
going to a certain place which he was unwilling to men-
tion.—(Laughter.) But it was possible that the Hon.
Baronet might have been overawed by his constituents,
and that he had been told by them, that if he voted for
any money being given to any body, except the Church of
i
England. that he would lose the eonfi denee of the Church
of England, and endanger his seat at the next election.
The Noble Lord said last evening that there were nearly
a million of children now educated in the National So-
ciety of the Church of England. The liturgy and cate-
chism were taught in that Church, and the children were
obliged to go to them. The Noble Lord also said that
the Committee of Education rTither approved nor disap-
proved of that plan, but he ho-Ped and trusted that the
Church would follow the etabiple of the Wesleyans, and
be more liberal, by not forcing an education on the chil-
dren which their parents would not approve of. He also
said that he was quite certain that the Church would be
the gainer by some relaxation of that rule. Now, it ap-
peared to him (Sir C. Napier) that if the views of the
Noble Lord were followed out, that this would be very
nearly a secular education. The Noble Lord said that
he hoped and trusted that the Church would be regulated
en a more liberal footing, and that the Dissenter would
not be obliged to learn the Church catechism, or the
liturgy, or forced to go to church, contrary to the will of
their parents. It appeared to him that this was as he
had said—a secular education, and if it were
Possible in this country, where there were so
many different sects, to have a school attached
to every chapel at large, it should be done. There
could not be the smallest doubt that it would be right
and proper to connect the education of children with fze..
ligion,but when they knew that it was perfectly imetos-
*able that there could be schools attached to every
church or chapel in the country, it was evident. that
Where the English Church existed in agricultural
4istricts, that either the Dissenters and Catholics who
lived in these districts must go to school, contrary to
the will of their parents, and be taught a religion of
which tl ey did not approve, or else go totally and entirely
ithoLt education. Now, he really did not see how the
rreaert plan was to obviate that difficulty ; and it sp-
. peered to him perfectly impossible that a secular edu-
eBtiolli could be given to all the children of this
..
-12247. Let the clergy of the Established Church
St_Te them religious instruction and education on Sun-
-31. Let them do, what it was the custom to do in
wan, y very small districts with very conscientious
v"orgyraen, who, after the sermon of the Sunday fore-
12°0Usee invited the children into the vestry, and taught
..._m14•111 their catechism, and who thought that that was
144;_es MI/ proper way of giving them religious instruc-
. Who children went to Church in the afternoon in
isms manner as in the forenoon. Let them see if
-413Aae_,_ Was saiy, danger of the children having a reli-
-eductition, if through the country at large they
Zad the same aanser as the smaller dip
r
oftht
"611:47, The fact Will tat the higher

classes of the clergy would consider it a very consider-
able imposition upon them, if, after the sermon, they
were bound to give all the children belonging to their
parish a prop-•r and relicions education. The clergy-
were unwilling to educate their children ; they were
also unwilling that they should go without education,
and they, therefore, came to the country, and asked for
schoolmasters to be appointed with them, in order to save
them trouble. He was sorry to be obliged to state these
things, but he conscientiously believed t}'em. If the clergy
were obliged to educate theirown children, no person who
knew anything of the dissenters would believe that they
would be behindhand in following or setting an example.
He therefore could see no difficulty in giving the child-
ren a secular education, and allowing their different
pastors to instruct them in their religion. The Right
Hon. Genleman the Paymaster of the Forces, in an
eloquent speech, gave a great number of strong reasons
in order to prove why th Government ought to educate
the people, and he quoted the opinions of Adam Smith,
who said, that unless the people were properly educated
there would be constant revolutions, and he instanced iw
mediately after that upon the call and at the will of one
man there was an insurrection of 100,000 men. His words
were, that Parliament was besieged. the Speaker trembled
in his chair, the children of the Prime IMinieter were
removed in their nignt-dresses to the Horse Guards—
the Lords were pulled out of their carriages, and the
bishops were crawling on the tiles. lie did not think
that there would be much danger of their being besieged
in their new Houses of Parliament It was not very
probable that you Mr. Speaker will shiver in your chair,
or the bishops be sky-larking on the tops of the tiles.—
(Great laughter.) He was quite persuaded that they
never could get Roman Catholic children to go into the
schools of the Dissenters, or the children of the members
of the Church of England to attend at Catholic or Dis-
senting schools. But it was proposed to exclude
the Catholics altogether by the present mea-
sere. Now, they did not exclude Catholics from
the army, they did not exclude them from the navy,
they did not exclude them from shedding their best
blood, by land and by water, in the defence of the
country. He, therefore, did net see with what justice
they could now exclude the children of Catholics from
participating in the present grant for primary education.
Having said this much about the principle of this scheme,
he would state that he also objected to the details—an I,
objection which was shared in by great numbers of the
Dissenters as well as Churchmen in England. It was
provided in the plan that the Government inspectors
were to be suiiject to the approval of the Archbishops of
Canterbury and York. As to the Church, there could
not be much objection to this arrangement, but he could
not agree to it as it. regarded the Dissenters. With the
exception of the Wesleyens, however, such was to be
the mode of appointing the inspectors.
Sir G. GREY expressed his dissent to this statement.
It was true that, as it regarded the appointment of the
Church school inspectors, they were subject to the ap-
proval of the Archbishops of Canterbury and York,
but the inspectors for the Dissenting schools would be
appointed by the committees of the respective dissenting
bodies, subject to the approval of the Board of Riucation.
Sir C. NAPIER continued—He objected, at all events,
to the arrangement, such as he understood it. He ob-
jected to the mode of educating apprentices, as laid down
in the minutes, as perfectly impracticable. It was use-
less to go over all the regulations laid down by the
Council, as it would only tatigue the House ; but he
would merely mention that he did not agree with the
supposition of many opponents of the measure, that the
children so educated would fill all the places of the Go-
vernment. lie thought such an idea perfectly absurd.
He was extremely sorry to vote against the Government
on this question, but he could not consent to support a
system of education which excluded the Catholics, and
to which the Dissenters had so many conscientious
grounds of objection. Having thus explained his views
by intimating his intention to vote against the motion of
the Government.—(Hear, hear.)
The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY wished to
offer a few words. The objections of the Dissenters had
already been fully given, and he would confine himself
to the position of the Church of which he was a Mem-
ber. It was not without a painful struegle that he had
made up his mind to the course which he would pursue.
It appears that the body to which he belonged was alone
excluded from the grant, and he could not, after that,
see bow any Roman Catholic Member in that House could
support the proposition. He, for one, must vote against it.
He would thank the Hon. Member for Finsbury and the
Gallant Admiral for the speeches which they had just
made; for the Roman Catholics had complained, and
they had a right to complain of the exclusion to which
they had been subjected. When he saw that there were
thousands who were not only unable either to write or
to read, but who were totally unacquainted with the
name of their Creator, he could not, therefore, but
feel it hard that those of nis own faith had been left
without assistance, especially when he recollected the
efforts which had been made by the Church to which he
was attached for dispelling the darkness which had set-
tled on many regions of the world. Yet he would not
act, like the dog in the manger, for although he could
not dispel the prejudices of this country against his own
faith, he would at least do all that he could, and assist to
the utmost of his power to support the scheme of the
Government. He looked upon religious feeling as the
offspring of early British spirit; if there was some de-
gree of intolerance in it, let the House treat it with a
degree of tenderness and love, and endeavour to win it
over to charity, and toleration, and benevolence.—
(Cheers.)
Mr. SEYMER said that the Government had admitted
that the measure was an imperfect one, but still
iiiithiNig could ind!ice him to join with the party
who were endeavouring to throw out the mea-
sure. He b-heved that the speech of the Right
lion. Member for Edinbtirt,h, was perfectly ungn-wir
able by the opponents of the m, azure. Tee lion. and
Learned
ilolre "(
INSl7:y.P7niieb:e'r.ri.fdoeirt:ll-Id2aatalhlstshhuaerelfatbrlllitTellslmorrhioeflkGfthe'newbc.roir:4,"l":tteherai-tt.
if no
would lit. ,fcarhreve.
ticabe,seue:hn,ucirdlisa,:si been paid to s
of uch
stchhiant:'
tnhn as, t7:ilonft:g:tct
hhh:aim7::lll,'pwl'ithrri?dti,sßert.d(eol
treat all sorts of religi..n alike; he did not call those per-
sons " liberal," he called them indifferent. He did not
believe that the state of education wa, in this country in
so perfect a state as was reputed by some persons. The
character of the schoolmasters was also of the lowest
character. The Hon. Member alluded to some of the
schools in the county of Dorset, in confirmation of his
statements. He thought that, under such circumstances,
these persons incurred a serious responsibility who
offered any opposition to the measure of the Go-
vernment. He cordially approved of the sys-
tem proposed by her Majesty's Government,
and he was quite surprised that it should be said
that the measure was dangerous to civil and religious li-
berty, and the analogy between the effects of this system
and other systems of education as existing in Austria and
Russia was perfectly false and unfair. lie protested
against the principles of politic el economy being applied
to the great question of education in this country. The
Church did not seek by this measure to empty the cha
pets for the purpose of filling the Churches. He begged
most cordially to give his support to the Government
scheme of education.
Mr. AGLIONBY would bear his testimony to ttn deep
anxiety on the part of the Government to promote the
education and the welfare of the people at large. But
still differences of opinion would exist as to the suitable
nature of the plans propos, d by the Government for
the purpose of improving the moral and intellectual con-
dition of the people. He regretted, however,
that he could not give his entire support
to the whole scheme of her Majesty's Government.
He wished to make one observation in reply to what
had been said with respect to the able and eloquent
speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for
E iinburgh (Mr. Macaulay), who made out a triumphant
case for expending money on the education of the people
instead of expending it in punishing them. No doubt,
many were carried away by the eloquence of his address
but he failed to show by his conclusions that the Govern-
ment scheme was the best that could be adopted. The
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Dorsetshire said no
answer had been made to his speech, but he (Mr.
Aglionby) considered that the Hon. Gentleman the
Member for Bath (Mr. Roebuck) had given a fair and
clear answer. The Right Hen. Gentleman's premises
were undisputed, but his conclusions were erroneous.
He (Mr. Macaulay) considered that secular and religious
education should go on together ; but ho (Mr.
Aglionby) agreed with the Honourable Member
for Bath, that they ought to be separated,
and also that voluntary exertions had as yet been unable
to accomplish all that was required; and, therefore, that
aid ought to be given by the State, but that it ought to
be given in accordance with the amendment which the
Hon. Baronet the Member for the Tower Hamlets (Sir
W. Clay) intended to propose—" That it was expedient
that in any plan for promoting the education of the
people by p ecuniary assistance from the State, provision
should be raade that in schools receiving such assistance
the opportunity of participating in all instruction other
than religious should be afforded to children whose
parents roay object to the religious doctrine taught in
such scb.ools. He was strongly in favour of a secular
system of education in which all sects—Roman Catholics
as well. as dissenters—could participate. He would not
object to any scheme of national education which would
effort-) instruction to all—none being excluded.
It was on these grounds that he regretted
that he felt it his duty to oppose the Government plan,
so far as the religious part of it was concerned, as he
Believed it would create schisms and heartburnings
amongst all classes of the people.—(Hear, hear.) Such
a system as the one he had pointed out should have his
earnest support.
Viscount SANDON said he should vote in favour of
the plan of education which the Government had pro-
posed, and the grounds on which he did so were, that
it was the duty of the State to afford education to the
people.—(Hear, hear.) That education did not simply
consist in reading and writing, but in reigion
also ; and, to him, a scheme of education
not allied to religion was a delusion, a mockery, and a
snare, because the education of the moral part of man
was the most important point of all.—(Hear, hear.) He
thought the system proposed, that the education should
be allied with religious instruction, was a wise and:judi-
cious plan. He hoped. however, the time would come
when the Church would open their schools to all, quite
irrespective of the religious predilections of the parents
of the children, and that this plan would be ultimately
adopted. This, perhaps, was the only part of the plan
hTowevex.opponentstprheeelit
however,
could
tobject,hat
a with any
awith spwoocii.
oo
rf
troeaswonh.i7
ulosuol/d; tiayl
seoa rg,
i
tohuegrhetfotroe,b
he
aail
esdt_rtihcitsl strictly 500 i
uosr
n6,otOr
o- col it
wn
aunder hisir ;
but charge,hp
ml stun!.d
oruelie gg iriemast mstaenp.
i n it
the
right direction and hoped that in course of time it would
be materially amended, and be rendered more advanta-
geous to 'the -peeple,--(Hear.).
Mr. GISBORNE said that he. Aid not think her Ma-
jasty'e Government in guy way to blaine for Having

brought forward this scheme—it was brought forward
in accordance with principles already recognised by the
House, and was in its provision a measure of great
moderation. He had no scale by which he could limit
the duties of Government in the performance of any-
thing which was for the benefit of the community, and
natwtehne whether
to r
thhee Gputovtherenqmueensttiocnouolnd
re simpleadvantageously the
ou
d of
the education of the lower orders in this country than
it proposed under this measure. Taking into considera-
tion the proposition itself, and the principle upon which
it was founded, he thought it was in itself without
objection, but he very much questioned whether the
Government could ever interfere beneficially with the
education of the people. It was not so much a question
of Church principle, for in the speech of the Right Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Macaulay) last night all his arguments
against the voluntary principle would be equally appli-
cable to the Church system. The Right 1-ion. Gentle-
man would appoint inspectors to these schools, and
would receive their reports, but would these inspectors
and their renorts be t fficient. He could refer to a re-
port of—(the lion. Member here paused to select a
document from some papers near him, when)—
Mr. ROEBUCK rose, and moved that the House be
counted.
Strangers were ordered to withdraw, hut it being I
found that exactly forty members were present,
Mr. GISBORNE resumed. There were many reports
with reference to public schools, and nearly all of them
made various complaints aff,,cting the school or the
scholars. Many stated that those in the school found it
impossible to make themselves heard. That would cer-
tainly be an argument in favour of the foundation of
Normal Schools, to which only those who had been sub-
jected to a proper examination would be admitted. That
would have been the course to be pursued; but had the
Church
i of England which had adopted these improve-
ments n education succeeded? The Noble Lord in his
speech last night, described the ignorance which pre
trailed in the lower orders of the country, and that best
shewed whether the Church establishments had suc-
ceeded. If they doubted the fact, let them refer to
a report of one of the inspectors.—(Hear, hear.) The
Rev. Mr. Mosely, who described the poor as for-
saking the Church, and being utterly indifferent in the
greater number of instances to the benefit of education.
Mr. Kay, another authority, remarked that the Roman
Catholic Church had always been alive to the fact that
to teach the poor their teachers must be chosen from
among themselves, and therefore their priests were in
many instances—and with the sagacity which marked
all the worldly policy of that Church—chosen from
amongst the very poor. Mr. Wady had also stated
that amongst several hundred children, taken from the
highest class of these schools, a great many were unable
to tell the name of the country in which they lived, and
the name of her Majesty, besides possessing the grossest.
and most absurd ideas with reference to questions of
geography or histpry, although nearly.all of them could
write and knew something of arithmetic. These things
which existed under a system similar, though not so
extensive as the one proposed by Government, convinced
him that interference in this question neither had pro-
duced nor would produce any really beneficial effects.
Mr. Kay took no notice of Mr. Lang's book, and it was
therefore to be inferred that he was unable to answer it.
Mr. Lang praised the system adopted in Prussia, and
said that it was the most perfect in the world, but he
considered the effects of that education as making a man
more moral, were wholly incomplete, and that in this
regard the Prussian system was a failure. They had
heard much of this sy stem, but what was the fact ?
The character for honesty of the Prussians was far lower
than that of any other European nation. The Hon.
Member then quoted several passages to show that
chastity in the sex was very much disregarded.
The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edin
burgh had praised the Scotch people very much, but
he believed that he should have to make very serious de-
ductions to the eulogiums which he had bestowed upon
them. He had been in the habit of spending weeks in
the towns; in Greenock and Glasgow. Notwithstand-
ing the high education of the Scotch, he saw nothing in
those towns which gave him a high opinion of them; and
there were as many places there in which he would not
wish to trust. himself. Well, these educated Scotchmen,
who could read and write, were, in comparison to any
Englishmen,. nothing but barbarians. He was also in the
habit of spending several months in the Highlands, and
in a particular glen, 'and the character of it was not
that there were one or two drunken men in it, but
that they were all drunkards. Yet they received a
good religious education, for such was the fact, that
they were all splendid controversialists.—(Hear, hear.)
National education would pass by the very class they
wished to educate, in the same manner as the Established
Church had pas'.ed it by. He did not wish to speak
disresp2ctfully of the Church, and though he did admit
that it afforded to all the higher classes that instruction
which was to be desired, yet he held it to be his opinion
that she did not give religious instruction to the lower
classes. The SVesleyans and, where they existed, the
Roman Catholics were the real instructors of the poor.
But then he might be asked, Do you rely upon the vo-
luntary principle ? He would answer, that though
well aware of the difficulties of the question,
yet he would say that he had much more reliance
upon the voluntary system than upon any other.
He had more reliance on the voluntary principle than on
anything which the Government could do. If they were
to take Dr. Kay's statement, it would be at least four-
score years before its benefits would be realised ; but if
they looked to what had been already done by the vo-
luntary principle—seeing how much it had advanced
education among the lower orders, he did not despair,
but that long before the time stated the greatest benefits
would be realised. He had now stated his views, and
though he di," not like ' the motion of the lion,
Member for Finsbury, still ratio r than support the
plan of Governmi(nt, he must give it his support.
Mr. P. 130 R I.IIW ICK telloe ed in reply. The lion.
Gentleman who last addressed the House, hrtd gone a
lons way out of the usual hint to establish his views.
Among other places he had gone to Scotland, in answer
to the speech of the Right Hon. Member for Edinburgh,
as to the results of the education of the p-ople of that
country, lie had stated that some time ago he had
sp( nt soap (tars at Greenock and Glasgow, and
pointed out the filth and evils which he found to exist..
He had also amused them with the account of a High •
hinder called Donald, who had a gun, and who every
day was in the habit of g,tting drunk. These cases he
had cited to show that Scotland was not so moral as it
Lad been represented to be. He had also mentioned that
England was superior to Scotland, instead of as it had
been represented. Now the Hon. Member, he sub-
mitted, had misrepresented the argument of the Right
Hon. Member for Edinburgh. His argument was not a
comparison of England with Scotland, but Scotland with
Scotland—Scotland now with what it was before the
introduction of State education.—(Bear, hear.) He
would support the proposition of her Majesty's Govern-
ment, because it proposed some means to advance the
cause of education; whereas the motion of the Hon.
Member for Finsbury was for an indefinite postponement
of the question. He had admired the speech of
the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern-
ment. It was worthy of the best days of
English statesmen, and he only regretted that
the measure of the Government was not equal to the
speech. It was not extensive enough to meet the evils
of the case. Ile regretted also that on both sides of the
question an illiberal and intolerant spirit had been
shown. Nevertheless, though the plan did not go as far
};she could wish, it should nevertheless have his support.
Wi, h regard to those who objected to the measure of her
Maj, sty's Government, on what were their objections
founded ? It was none other than this—that because
the Bill was not shaped to meet the desires of all classes.
Therefore the people should have no education at all ;
they were not to be tacght their duty to Government, or
to their Sovereign, but were to sink into the degradation
of utter ignorance. He believed that if means were
taken to ascertain how many of the persons signing these
petitions had read the Book of Common Prayer, the re-
turn would be very little more than nil. He did not
say this with any intention of speaking dis-
respectfully of those persons, but still he believed
that such was the case. He most cheerfully supported
the measure of Her Majesty's Government, because al-
though it did not do all, it was yet a great step in the
himitot
o.tr
ht
bah
wta
kl.hv
Goa cdeanot etni del
yintoahnnee,
namely,
a n
ant)! uwenel
ytra, rt
that
givesa st yit t
right direction. The Hon. Gentleman who had preceded
tehoma
d. thefaaißlrred.m(TMehnret.
Hon. Member concluded by expressing his determination
whLicohrdthbisl O
questionliP Tilh sda
ri
etehi
vaet
daftert
ht
to vote for the Bill. -
'ebegroilnlningPooexmftthione
discussion, and the further explanation that had been
made from time to time he should have thought it un-
necessary to make any observation, and consider himself
inexcusable if he were long to trespass on the at-
tention of the House, but as a member of the
Government—as a member of the obnoxious Privy
Council—as one who had always taken an anxious
part in the question of education, but also as one who
found himself in the painful condition of becoming
separated in opinion from many of those with whom he
bad been in the habit of acting on this question, he
trusted that he might be allowed to make a few obser•
nations to the House. Indeed, he wanted all the cen-
sciousness and assurances of a good cause to sustain him
on this occasion, fur, not only in respect of the petitions
which he had presented to the House, and the immense
preponderance of such as were opposed to the course,
he meant to adopt ; not on account of this alone, or of
the number of voices or votes which might be brought to
bear against him ; but because he was compelled
to differ from many of those with whom he had been in
the habit of agreeing. He trusted that, those friends
also felt, but he knew that what he felt himself on this
occasion could be estimated by no common rule. What
was it that led him to encounter the pain arising from
this severance of familiar ties ? It was the conviction
that the different parties and denominations had taken
their stand un this occasion on very low grounds, and
that their weapons were of a coarser temper
than the nature of the case required ; they were too
intently considering the interest of the church or
of the chapel, of the tabernacle or of the
sanctuary, instead of giving that attention to
the people which their condition required. It was like
fighting the armour without giving any attention
to see whether the life was left in the body. The
eloctrine, that the State had no right to interfere in the
education of the people, had found a comparatively faint
and hesitating echo within the walls of Parliament
itself. It was partly hinted indeed by the Hon. Member
for Nottingham, who had lately addressed the House. In
his amusing speech he was particularly severe on the
Prussians and Scotch. Mr. Laing had indeed'given a
very unfavourable account of the state of education in the
first of these countries. But-others, and the great ma-
jority of travellers, he believed, had given a more favour-
able account. He (Lord Morpeth) hoped that it would
soon be unnecessary to stigmatisePrussia as waeting all the
characteristics of a free ' country. The Hon. Member
was particularly severe on Scotland. Now. as he (Lord
-]Morpeth) hschlot the gOod—or ft* the .110 u, Ibulber

would call it the bad—fortune to be born on the other
side of the Tweed, he did not feel it necessary to take
up the cause of a people who were never backward in
taking up or maintaining their own. But the Hon.
Member described them as akin to swages, and he gave
the House a very classical account of their vices. One
of them, a close attendant on the lion. Member's own
person, it appeared got drunk both on high days and
holidays. But whether the Hon. Member for Notting-
ham were right or wrong, he did sot wish to shrink
from the endeavour to brieg the mamitiery of the State
to bear on the education of the people. However,
much the ground might have been taken out of doers,
that it was not the business of the state to educate the
people, he Hon. Member who hac moved the amend-
ment, had scarcely touched upon it, while the Hon. and
Learned Member for Bath had altogether repudiated it;
he even said that he was prepared to go further than
they did. He (Lord Morpeth) treated with contempt
the bugbear that had been raised, taat the Government
measure would throw an undue share of patronage into
their hands. 'They inch ed pensioned a few worn out
schoolmasters, they rewarded and trained up some pro-
mising school boys, but they never calculated on the fos-
tering of a corrupted system, as some of the
Hon. Members appeared to consider it. But the
Honourable Member appeared to think that they
might have adopted a more efficacious system of
national education, and one less sectarian in its principles
and tenets. Now he was not sure, that as far as he was
concerned, that he very much differed from the princi-
ples that had been laid down by the Hon. Member. But
what was their option ? They had as usual three courses
open to be pursued ; they might have favoured one par-
ticular method of teaching, and probably if they had
adopted one method, that one would be the method in-
culcated by the Church of England. In no such scheme
would he have been a party. They might have taken
another scheme, by which the State would prescribe the
same course to all parties, without permitting any one to
be paramount ; but his plan he firmly believed would
meet favour from no party in that House, or in the coun-
try. Well, then, they had the co-operative system, which
was built on that which it already found. He was
himself satisfied that the voluntary principle
was capable of doing great good, and
he would willingly adopt it, as far as he
could, but because they would not consent to any ex-
clusive scheme they were taunted with indifference to
authorised opinions. He did not hear without emotion
the speech of his Noble Friend and Relative, the Mem-
ber for Arundel, that evening, for he was himself in
some degree connected with the Catholics of this c sun-
try ; and in what degree was he so Connected ? When
he became a member of the Privy Council he found cer-
tain principles laid down and established, and it was
only proposed by these minutes to extend or fill them
up. It was his conscientious belief that there were no
modifications introduced into these minutes, further than
were already recognised by the House. It further
changes had been intended, the House would have re-
eeived notice. He was as much prepared to receive ap •
plicatisns from the Roman Catholics as from any other
class of her Majesty's subjects, and if such applications
had been made and refused, he should not continue to
sit as one of the Committee. He thought that the ad-
vocates of the voluntary system had shown that there
was an immense number of the young in this
country lamentably destitute of the means of
education, and whether they took the higher or
the lower numbers, they still showed that a
frightful deficiency existed. An acquaintance
of his (Lord Morpeth's) had lately instituted inquiries
into the degree of education which prevailed in the
country, sued be would read to the House a few of the
statistics with which he had been furnished from the
parish of Bradford, in the West Riding of Yorkshire.
The House was aware that this was a populous district,
and one in which the vo,untary movement had exhibited
its.best efforts. The parish of Bradford was divided into
13 townships, with a population of 119,000 persons. The
number of public schools was forty, and of private schools
one hundred and eleven. The scholars who attended
the day public schools were 4,267, in private schools
3,783, while the Sunday schools were attended by 19,000
children. He did not, however, consider that this Sun-
day school education was satisfactory, inasmuch as they
were compelled to omit much of that information which
could be better given on the other days. The Noble
Lord read further extracts from the statistical table, to
show the relative numbers of masters and mistresses,
and the conditions of the schools in that part of York-
shire. The result showed that forty in every 100 could
not read in England, while ninety-nine out of every 100
could read in the State of Massachussets. Surely this
state of things should put them to the blush.
Now, he did not feel himself called upon to add any-
thing to what this report had stated; but he felt
the disparaging position in which the schoolmaster was
placed. Looking to the statements which these reports
had made, he found that in the district with which he
was connected, he found that in the West Riding of
Yorkshire, the number of prisoners committed able to
read was 32, 112 could read imperfectly, and 149 could
not read at all. At the last assizes he found that out
of 66, only ten could read well, 34 could read indistinctly,
and 22 could not read at all. At the last sessions of
Leeds, there were 212 prisoners, of whom only 6 could
read, 73 could read imperfectly, and 61 coulo
not write at all, and there were 74 who coub
neither read nor write. On reference to the
expenses, he found that the whole expense of the police
was 18,9261., of which, that for the constabulary was
6,478/., that for the county gaol was 2,2121., and with the
other expenses, the whole of the sum was male up.
There were 31,000 houses, and the rate for the punish
racist of crime was equal to 10s. Bd. per house, which was
not, as he had stated, for the prevention of crime, but fir]
its pun shment after it had been committed. Deeply di(
be regret that in this measure he was compelled to diffe
from those with whom, through a long political career
he had been in the habit of acting. lie believed the
they were me-taken, and believing this, he was bound tr
give his vote in favour of the plan proposed by the Go
yernment.
Mr. BRIGHT rose, with the greatest deference, 0
express his opinions on this question, but with all hi
arled.ettion for the speeches of those who were in favou
of the Government plan, he folt that the respect was fa
more fur the ability which had been displayed in th
avoiding the question rather than for the argument
which had been adduced in supprt of it. But as he her
been educated as a Nonconformist he felt compelled 0
offer his opinion, lie deeply regretted, he would re.
peat, his opposition, but he could not see the advantage
that was likely to result from the plan which they ha-
produced, and one half of the time during which th,
lion. Member for Edinburgh had been upon his legs hart
been occupied in attempting to prove that the voluntary
system had been totally inoperative in
promoting the edu.
cation of the people. This he totally denied, 5110
notwithstanding all the statements of Dr. Hook, Mt.
Baines, and all the other authorities, both for lute
against the Government scheme, it appeared that it
1818, the number of scholars was 674,000; in 1833
was 1.270,000; and, in 1847 it was 2.600,000. Accord
ing to the population in the first year, the average v‘ a
one in seventeen; in 1833 it was one in eleven; and, in
1847 it was as high as one in eight. But the Noble Loral
seemed to place great reliance on the number of Sunda)
scholars, and had stated that upwards of 210,000
scholars were receiving instruction through the ageccy
of the Established Church; but on reference to the
reports he found that those who had been instrumental
in carrying out the voluntary system, had educated in
1818, upwards of 470,000 scholars; in 1835, they had
1,500,000 scholars; and in 1847, that number had beeir
very largely increased. He would now take Scotland,
and he deeply regretted that the Right Hon. the
Secretary at War (Mr. Fox Maule) was
not in his
place, for no people could have done themselves higher
honour than the Scotch, in freeing themselves from the
domination of an
Established Church, and the baneful
influence of a connexion with the State. According to
the reports, it was now evident that although the Church
had dated itsestablisbment only for a few years there were
at the present time between six and seven hundred thousand
children under tuition. If he were to turn to Wales he
might cite the authority of a very respectable paper—
the Caernarvon Herald, and state that while the Esta-
blished Church party had not founded a single school,
the several sects of the Dissenters had founded no less
than 676 for the education of the lower classes, and eV
the present moment there were no fewer than 1,022,000
children receiving instruction through the aid of the
Dissenters. Under the tuition of the Wesleyan Me-
thodists there were 463,000, under the Independents
260,000, under the Baptists 82,000, and which, with a
change under a variety of other sects, a number which
swelled the whole ansoant to, uptvards of 1,400,000p ;
and with respect, to the whole of the number of
those who were educated in the country at the
present time nine out of ten have been edu-
cated by the Dissenters, and this he would
assert without any fear of contradiction. The
Noble Lord at the head of the Government appeared
to differ from his Right Hon. Friend the Member for the
en
en voluntarytincould
l asuidfcient abundance:
no systemt find any ways
city of Edinburgh upon one point. The Noble Lord
appeared to think, when he came into office, that the
voluntary system had provided sufficient buildings for
the education of the people. They had the authority o:
hitherto
theand pursued
iNt o
wb
had
sa Lord
and means for distributing their grants for building
schools that they now came before the
grants in House to ask for
to be allowed to expend th. it
powerimproving
the quality of the education administered •
adbe peraouvsiedte Government
schools
therm
in the buildings
already erected. Now was it likely that a system which
had built up school-houses in so much abundance should
be a long time in insprovieg the quality of the educatioi.
to be given in them? Where then was the necessity of
this measure? The Noble Lord at the head of the
Government had said he did not understand why an)
dissenter could refuse to partake of this grant on the
ground that part of the money was to be given to the
Church of England. He dial riot think it wee very
ingenious for the Noble Lord to put such a statement
in his speech. It was not because the Church
of Engl=and received money from this grant the
the Non-confr irmists objected to it, but because it
would not be in accordance with their principles.
to receive public money for the purpose of teaching re-
ligion in their schools.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman, the Member for the City of Edinhnreh, di,
not usually speak with vary great courtesy of the Dis-
senters and Nonconformists. He had heard him speak
of the braying of Exeter Hall, and last night the Hight
Hon. Gentlemen spoke frequently of the clamour"
which was being made throughout the country against
this measure. Well, it was easy for Gentlemen in office
to speak in that Y .
via No doubt there were many com-
forts, and conveniencies, and pleasures connected with
office, or men would not seek it so readily, and it was-
easy for men in office to say that any opposition, -which
might be raised to their measures, was
" clamour ;" but
he asked whett er it was likely thatt 500 gentlemen would
come from all parts of the country, up to London, at
great personal inconvenience, to meet the obloquy that
might be heaped on the m, for making a clamour, if
they did ut believe tb§t.there danger-

ous in the principle of this measure.—(Hear, hear.) (
Tne Right Hon. Gentleman ought to be the last person
to meet that opposition with the simple declaration that
it was clamour, and phoo, phoo it way, as if it were the
resoning of an insane class of persons.—(Hear, hear.)
The Right Honourable Gentleman had told them
whit Washington, and Jefferson, and the com
mot:wealth of Massechusetts had done, but was it
fair to draw a comparison between the United States
and the United Kingdom ? Was there any Established
Church in the United States ? Had every parish in
the commonwealth of Massachussets the highly edu-
cated gentleman with considerable leisure upon his
bands, and connected with an aristocratic and privi-
leged class, that was to be found in every quarter of
the United Kingdom, acting always in unison with and
in conformity to the wishes of the privileged class with
which he was connected ? 'ree this country from the
trammels of a State Church—make the Church a free
and popular institution, and they would find that all
the other sects would be as harmonious upon the ques-
tion of religious education, as the various sects of
America. The Nonconformists objected upon princi-
ple to the manner in (which the Government seized; hold
of the public funds to aid and improve the functions
of any particular sect, and, therefore, they could not
consistently with their prineiPles, participate in this
grant. By this plan, Government were preparing
an extensive system of education, under which the
young persons of this country were to be instructed
in certain religious tenets, and all this was to be done
under the direction of the clergyman of the parish, who
would have power to examine the children, and, in addi-
tion to the minister of the parish, there was to be a Go-
vernment Inspector, who would also be a clergyman
under the control of the Archbishop.
An 110 N. MEMBER—He will only inspect Church of
England schools.
Mr. BRIGHT—Of course, the inspection of a Church
of England clergyman would only apply to Church of
England schools. Government could not have the as-
surance to propose that Church of England inspectors
should have the power of inspecting the schools of the
Dissenters. The Nonconformists were not quite so hum-
bled as that. No; the Dissenters were free from such
intrusion ; but had Government the power, they would
readily put it into execution. Now, he was pre-
pared to contend, that this proposal to appoint Church
of England inspectors, was calculated unjustly
to increase the power of the Established Church.
At present the vicar of the parish had only the power
at will to inspect the schools of his neighbourhood,
hut by this Minute he was made an officer of the
State, while it was quite clear, if Goverment fulfilled
their compact with the Church, their own inspectors
would have to be clergymen toe, and there could be no
doubt that the operations of these two functionaries
would add to the power of the Church, and retard the
progress of political and religious freedom. But if
there was anything wanted to show what would be the
effect of this plan upon the Established Church, it was
to be found in the exulting shouts with which it was
hailed by the clegrymen of the E-Aablished Church.
Did they ever support any plan that was calculated to
advance the interests of the Nonconformists. He was
surprised that it had net with so much support from
the laity, because nothing could more retard the pro-
gress of a nation in civil and religious liberty, than
investing the clergy with too much power. Their
functions already gave them sufficient power without
adding to it by legislative enactment. The Right Hon.
Gentleman, the member for the city of Edinburgh,
had asked the opponents of the measure, what he called
a plain question, namely, supposing in any city there was
a school connected with the Established Church—a school
connected with the Calvinists—a school connected with
the Presbyterians, and a school connected with some
other sect ; would any one point out to him what share
of the public money would be taken by the Church of
England. which could not be demanded by the other
sects. Now, if the Right Hon. Gentleman had looked
et the returns, he would have found that the total num-
ber of grants made during the last three years, amounted
to 149,0001., of which 141,000/. was received by the Es-
tablished Church. Could anything be more impartial
than that ? but, no doubt, he should be told that the
Dissenters might have had their share had they asked
for it. True ; but the Dissenters were of a different
temper to that. They did not separate from the Esta-
blished Church, to come whining and asking Govern-
ment to support their educational establishments. They
separated from the Church upon the principle that Go-
vernment had no right to appropriate the public funds
for the purposes of religious instruction. Did they in
this country exercise the impartiality of the United
States? No, for in the United States, where they pro-
posed to endow ten religious sects, and nine tenths ob-
jected to it, they did not give the whole endowment to
the tenth, but that was precisely the impartiality of
which the Right lion. Gentleman had spoken. The
Dissenters would not take this money, and it must be
clear to every Member of the House who had at all
examined the principle of these sects, that any Noncon-
formists who hereafter touched one sixpence of this
grant for the purpose of teaching in a Nonconformist
tchool would fur ever be debarred from protesting
against the domination of the Church; but that was a
point upon which the Right Hon. Gentleman and the
supporters of this measure always refrained to touch.
There were many thousands of Dissenters in the country
at this moment who had ever remained staunch and
arm to their principles, and if the House did its duty it
would pause before it adopted a system which offered
to them now, in 1847, such an enormous temptation to
,bandon their principles. But it was hopeless to expect
that the Dissenters would ever secede from their long
ettled principles, and therefore all the advantages of
his plan must of necessity be handed over to
die Established Church, to add to her coffers
ritl inert ase her power over the people.
the Noble Lord then spoke of the course which it was
pr.,posed to adopt with respect to the Roman Catholics
with regard to this question, and be did not think that
:e made a reply to the lion. Gentleman the Member for
Finsbury, who referred to a pas-age in a former speech
if the Noble Lord, where he spoke of "the sinews of the
..latholies, and the gold of the Unitarian." He was also
•f• opinion that a correct, a full explanation. had not
leen given of what had taken place between the Noble
Lord and the secretary of the Wesleyan body. He had
question, however, to ask, and he hoped the Noble
,ord or the Secretary of State would answer it. The
tuestion ho would ask was, whether any communication
tad been made by the Government to any of the
authorities or dignitaries of the Catholic Church,
respecting the appointment of inspectors of the Catholic
-chools? If this had been the case then it followed of
eturse that, notwithstanding what had been said with
respect to the use of the authorised version of the Scrip-
:,ures, the Government had the intention of m lting
;rants to the Catholic schools. He believed if this view
if the question were correct, there was something noble,
something great in the Government coming forward and
?reposing a scheme for all classes.—(Cheers.) He had
teard dissenters taunted with denying civil rights to the
,toinan Catholics, but such imputations were not borne
tut by facts, for had it not been for the exertions of
dissenters, in the advocacy of their rights, they would
tot then have a seat in that House. His opinion
was, that when the Minutes of Education were first
'sought under consideration, the Government were ready
to open the grant to all classes. They did not appre-
hend that any agitation would be excited by these Mi-
nutes. When, however, it was feared that the Wesleyan
00,1 y would strenuously oppose them, a negotiation
was opened up through the ail of a friend, who was al-
ways at hand on these occasions, and it was arranged
htit, in consideration of their not opposing the scheme,
he use of the authorised version of the Scriptures in
the school should be made compulsory, and the
Catholics should be excluded. An old writer said that
the pleasure of being cheated was as great as to cheat.
If this was so, he did not know whether the pleasure
if the Noble Lord or that of the secretary of the Wes-
leyan body was the greater ; but he thought the former
should have as much credit for statesmanship, as the
latter for consistency or liberality.—(Hear.) He was
riot going to enter into the question of the unconstitu-
tional power of the Privy Council, the schemes of the
s 3 stem, or the political bribes which it held out, except
to protest against the pernicious effects which would
follow this attempt to create a new body of State pen-
sioners, and recipients of Government bounty. But the
question was, whether it was politic or whether it was
right to teach young children everybodys religion at
everybodys expense ? If this principle was good, as far
as the children were concerned, he did not see
how they could refuse its extension to adults.
The consequence he believed would be, that the Dis-
senting schools would be at an enormous disadvantage, as
compared with the Church of Eugland schools. He de-
precated the introduction of this question at the present
time, when so many other subjects were pressing upon
the attention of Parliament—difficulties which required
the greatest minds to solve, have the effect, as might be
expected, of stirring up all the fountains of strife and
liscord which existed in the country. He was sorry
that this strife was excited and infused into the consi-
deration of the question, as he believed that it would
have the effect of retarding the progress in those re-
forms and improvements which were so much re-
quired in other things—(Hear, hear)—and prevent
them from working together for the good of their
common country.—(Cheers.) Believing, therefore, that
the effect of the measure would be to aggrandize the
power of the Established Church—that Church from
which his forefathers had suffered persecution, and for
:he support of whose ministers the furniture of the
church he himself had been attending for the last two
years, had been sold. It was impossible for him to sup-
port the measure.
sir u i uitu E GREY could assure the Honourable
Gentleman, and the House, that no one regretted
more than he did the infusion of religious strife
or bickering into this debate, but, notwithstanding
the different views entertained on the subject of
education notwithstanding the various differences which
were brought into the consideration of it, one thing
was very satisfactory, that they no longer hear of the
objection of the danger of diffasing education among the
ople, or of apprehension being expressed that the ex-
tension of education could endaneer the safety of the em-
pire. The Hon Gentleman, who had just sat down, had
q„,,,eion in such a way as to induce him
spoken of thy,
(Sir George Grey) to fear that he was not so well read
as he ought to have been in the history of his country.
This was the first time it has been proposed to remove
the popular ignorance anddiffuse the blessing ofeducation.
ilr. Whitbread brought . a Bill to that House for the
purpose, and another wa
sebeought in by Sir• S. Romilly,
and received the ~approbatioicl of that House, but was
unfortunately lost in the Lords,
s, owing to the existence
of the apprehension which, he congratulated the House,
was not to be found at the present day i▪ n conuexion
with the question of education. But if there was strife
infused into the discussion_ on it, theGover.n-
meat bad no cause to charge themselves with
The Honourable Gentle-
being the authors of it.
also was not more happy in his allusion to
the Nonconformists. He (Sir G. Grey) denied that
ship ogdy wail called tato ezistace cousequoupp of gle

resistance to endowments, and he really must again re-
quest the Hon. Gentleman to make himself more con-
versant with history before he pretends to enlighten 1-.
British Parliament on these subjects.—(Cheers.) He
asked him was he ignorant of the names cf Howe—of
Baxter, and of Oliver Hayward, and others whose
names, sufferings, history, and life were recorded
in the history ot le country.—(Hear, hear.) It was
not resistance to endowment, but the Act of Uni-
formity who made these men Nonconformists. The
Hon. Gentleman was equally unsuccessful also when he
said that the great objection of the opponents to the
I grant was not that the Government should refrain from
educating the people, on which so great stress had been
laid last night by the Hon. Member for Edinburgh ; for
what had been the prayer of a petition which he had
presented, and which was signed by 500 ministers as-
sembled in conference, at Crosby Hall, on the 13th
April ?—(Cheers,) (The Right Hon. Baronet then
read the prayer of the petition, calling upon the Govern-
ment not to interfere on the subject of education.)
He would call the attention of the Hon. Member to a
series of resolutions passed at a meeting held at Liver-
pool, at which Dr. Raffles presided, to the effect that
voluntary exertions were amply sufficient for the pur-
pose of educating the people, and protecting against any
Government interference with their education. He
thought the Honourable Member for Durham would not
refuse to admit that the principle distinctly laid down in
these resolutions was, that the Government should not
interfere with the education of the people. He
did not think that it was necessary to discuss that ques-
tion in the House. The present state of education in
the country was of itself a sufficient proof that the Go-
vernment ought not to stand aloof from this subject.
He would remind the Hon. Member of the eloquent lan-
guage of Robert Hall whom, no doubt, the Hon.
Member would believe to be a great authority among
the Nonconformists, his language was " that the great
body of the people are the basis of the great pyramid
of society, which so long as it stands will steed
whole; but in which if there is but a rent it
will affect the stability of the whole fabric.
What higher, what worthier object, then could a Govern-
ment propose, or come within its legitimate duty, than
to endeavour to foster and encourage the means best
calculated to promote the important end of raising the
moral, religious, and intellectual condition of the great
mass of the people of this country.—(Cheers.) The
Hon. Member for Nottingham had said that neither in
religion nor in education was it the duty of the Govern-
ment to interfere. The very reverse of this doctrine had
been repeatedly affirmed by the House. In the month ot
February, 1843, Lord Ashley moved for an address to the
Crown to take into consideration the best means of diffus-
ing the blessings of moral and religious education among
the working classes of the country. The Right Hon.
Baronet opposite (Sir R. Peel) gave his cordial concur-
rence to the motion. His Noble Friend (Lord J.
Russell) also supported the same measure; and not
one Hon. Member opposed the motion. The Hon.
Member fur Coventry last year brought forward the
same principle, and founded a motion of the
same character with respect to education in Wales.
The Hon. Member for 'Durham did not object to that
motion.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet then
went on to read an extract from the Leeds Mercury.
which appeared in that journal on the 18th of March,
1843, upon this subject of factory education, brought
forward by Sir .1. Graham, to the effect that in those
towns or villages where there were both churchmen and
dissenters there should be two schools instituted by the
Government, one on the principle of the National So-
ciety and the other on the principles of the British and
Foreign School Society. He must say that after read-
ing that article he did not contemplate that so great an
opposition would have been raised by the Nonconformists
against the present measure. Allusion had been made
to the conduct of the Free Church of Scotland, but they
had not upon all occasions refused the aid of the Govern-
ment, and in the present instance, although there w ere
some of its members who opposed the measure, still they
did not wish to oppose it upon the grounds of those per-
sons who joined in the agitation with which the Hon.
Member for Durham was identified. Mr. Baines
thought, in 1843, that Lord Ashley had painted
too dark a picture of the want of education in
the manufacturing districts, and that he might have found
a greater want nearer home, which he urged, by the aid
of statistics, in a letter to Lord Wharucliffe, who was
then at the head of the Council. But had this state of
things changed? It had not, for every day, brought
forward new pictures of vice. During the discussion
which had already taken place in that House, two things
had been admitted—first, that education itself was good;
and, secondly, that the Government was bound to exert
itself to extend it amongst the people. The Noble Lord
the First Commissioner of the Woods and Forests (Lord
Morpeth) said, there were three courses open to be
pursued; but he (Sir George Grey) thought there were
but two, and that the question of placing the whole
education of the people entirely in the hands of the
Church was not clearly before them—it was a tertium
quid which he should throw aside altogether. The two
courses, were the plan proposed by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man the Member for Bath, and the plan proposed by the
Government. The one was this—that they would esta-
blish an entirely new system of education, not regarding
the differences of religion in the vast number of schools.
in connexion with the different denominations: thus
bringing all the people into one system in which all reli
gious differences would be disregarded, and the Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Cockermouth (Mr. Aglionby:
admitted that the only fault in the Government plan was
that it did not accomplish this object, and that it was the
duty of the State to promote the education of the people.
But such a plan as this would have been utterly imprac-
ticable, and would not have been acceptable to any de-
nemieation, none of which desired entirely to excleee
religion from their schools. With respect to the other
plan—the Government plan—he would adopt the descrip-
tion given of it by the Noble Lord, the Member tor
Liverpool, who stated that the scheme was not a new
one, but simply an attempt to improve the existing
system. It was not proposed 0) supersede any of those
weans which at present existed for the education of the
people,. but was intended to raise the character of the
education given in those schools, and at the same time
to raise the position of the schoolmaster. Since the Go-
vernment bad proposed grants of money for the purposes
of education 3,000 schools of various &nominations had
received aid. The lion, Gentleman the Member for
Nottingham (Mr. Gisborne) seemed to think that the
control of t6e schools would be placed in the hands of
the Government, and that the voluntary system would
receive a check ; but it would do no such thing. as it
would simply aid the existing means of education ale
promote as much as' possible voluntary exertions, and
render them mire valuable. The question, theretore,
to be asked was, what wns best to be dotes under exist-
ing circuesstances ? The Noble Lord, at. the head of the
Government, said he did not propose the scheme as a pet -
feet, one, adding that it was no objection to his plan that
it did not accomplish all he could wish. What were the
objections which had been urged against it? It had been
urged, and the Hon. Gentleman heel repeated it, that
the teaching of the catechism was forced by law. Noe/
he (Sir G. Grey) denied that that was a portion of the
measure. The Government morel; wig', dto aid exist-
ing schools, and to leave the system of education and
religion taught in them untouched. lie believed that,
in connexion with the National Society, there were
schools, in which the good sense and liberal feeling of the
Society provided education for the children of parents
who were desirous that they should only receive secular
education. The Hon. Gentleman said that the inspectors
were to be appointed with the concurrence of the
Archbishop of Canterbury, such a thing had never been
contemplated by the Government, but that was an
argument on which he would not detain the House.
Then, with respect to the statement that it would de-
stroy the systems of education existing at present, he
would only say, that it would foster and encou-
rage those educational societies, and endow them
with new life and vigour. He then came to the mea-
sure which referred to the inequality of the plan. That
inequality was not the result of any interference with
the right of the Dissenters. That objection had been
made upon the ground that of these grants, by far the
greater portion had gone to the Church of England.
That did not result from design—there was nothing in
it to show any partiality in the system—the members of
the Church of England greatly exceeded in number the
members of the Protestant Dissenting body, and it must,
therefore, follow, that the grants to them were larger;
and in addition to that, a feeling had been at work
during the last two or three years, which bad produced
an objection on the part of some classes of Dissenters to
receive these grants of money, and therefore it was
rather hard to state 'as an objection to the measure, that
the money had not been divided equally. He wished to
notice a question which the Hon. Gentleman had asked
with regard to the inequality of this measure with refer-
ence to the Catholics. On the subject of Roman Catho-
lics, he would only say that he was bound to admit—and
he did it in great sincerity—that with regard to that
sect there was great ground of complaint. He was per-
fectly ready to admit that there were parts of this coup.
try—he would take the instance of Manchester—in
which a number of Roman Catholics resided in a body,
and where those employed in factories were compelled
by the factery law to allow the attendance of
their children at these schools, and at church,
where the Protestant catechism was taught. He admitted
that it was a hardship of which they had a right to com-
plain, and of the alternative of being excluded from the
benefits of and participation in these grants made by her
Majesty's Government. He could only say, with refer-
ence to this subject, that after having heard and listened
—as he believed every one else in the House listenedb-
with great attention and pleasure to the speech of. i
Noble Friend behind him, sLord Arundel), last mgeehsts.,
with regard to these objections, he could helpn:dtoi I
this was not
removal. He must remind the House that,s of Council ;
ing a desire to contribute as much as possible. their
an inequality arising under these Mi7oir t
ese
h purp,,s, s
for there was not more mob was
he was not aware
had not been excluded by name. and
wThhi :lit
l . h
made at al in t e a/Oleo,.
this year than the last. It was true that the Catholics
that any distiuction had been h
tmi oi
ha
uot
ef tthoewmh
required the we of the authorised version of the scrip-
icuheYl eefexrceet Pt cte haditb been egnr antB
mode,i wasnl 8309 n e
scrip-
tures in the instruction in these school, and although
there seemed to be some doubt as to w heteer the correct
interpretation of the-Scriptures was the
.authorised ver-
sion, he was sure that the Committee of Council, which
prepared that minute, and the Committee which acted on
it, had, in applying-the term authorised version to the
Scriptures named in the minute's, they had no intention
of excluding what might by some be termed the real
translation; yet they were compelled to adhere to the
minute,or they might have laboured under the imputation
of obtaining grants of money from Parliament for the
purpose of applying them to another. He rejoiced that
the subject had come before the House, and
he rejoiced at the feeling which had been ex-
pressed in the course of that debate, that
the exclusion of the Roman Catholics was unjust,
and ought to be removed. He had not heard
duce tb,e begina4 of that debate one single

gentleman rise and say that the Roman Catholics ought
to be excluded from any participation in the benefit of
this arante There was no use in concealment in this
matter, for in some instances Government must defer to
popular feeling in looking at these difficuAies. There
existed in the minds of the people a great apprehen ion
with regard to the extension of she Roman Catholic
relition. He himself not long since was nit very far
from participating in that apprehension, but he now
avowed that he would not be a party to any imposition
of any principle of exclusion, or any unfair or unequal
mode of dealing with any class of persons whatever
they might be with regard to this grant.—(Loud
sheers.) He affirmed that if these grants were to be
made, the Roman Catholics ought to participate in
them, and no one would more sincerely rejoice to see
the difficulties which stood in the way of that participa-
tion removed—no one would more cordially co-operate
with his Noble Friend in endeavouring to trams
these minutes—so as to bring the Roman Catholics
under the operation of a rule by which they might par-
ticipate in these grants in those cases in which they
were in large numbers collected together, and under cir-
cumstances which certainly would deserve a very con-
, siderate and especial notice. He bad not touched
upon all the objections which had been urged against
this measure, and were he to do so, he felt that he should
only trespass upon the time and patience of the House.
So little had been said in opposition, except upon
the details of the measure, and the imputation of an im-
perfection which they admitted, namely, that the measure
did not go far enough, and also of its not being a final
measure, it would not be just in him to occupy the time of
the House any longer in adverting to the various obser-
vations which had been made by gentlemen who objected
to the provions of the measure, and who intended to
support the motion and amendment of the Hon. Gentle-
man the Member for Finsbury. Ele hoped that the tole-
rance with which the measure had been received in that.
House would be felt by the country. In that House
they were removed from all troublesome associa•
tions and the pressure of party, and where they
consulted only for the general interest of the
community at large. Ia the opinions which bad been
expressed in that House, it appeared that the main
question at issue was not with regard to the principle of
the measure, but its detailed operation. I pray them
(continued the Hon. Member) to think of the danger
which their conduct may thus promote—of the great
increase which is taking place in our population, and of
the consequences of not making any provision for the
increased wants of the people as respects education. I
again address them in the language of the same eminent
individual to whom I before alluded—l mean the late
Robert Hall :—" These are not the times in which it is
safe for a nation to repose on the lap of ignorance.
While the world is impelled in opposite directions, and
the seeds of mutation are thickly sown, the improvement
of the mass of the people will be our grand security, in
the neglect of which, the politeness, the refinement, and
the knowledge accumulated in the higher orders, weak
and unprotected, will be exposed to imminent danger,
and perish like a garlend in the grasp of popular fury.
Wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of the
times." This is the language of that eminent man,
whose name is so much respected by all ; and I
would ask them, after such words, not to endeavour
further to induce us to stand still as mere spectators
of the meral evil, without making any attempt to check
the moral pestilence that is spreading around us wider
and wider every day, and without any attempt to instil
moral health and moral vigour into the vitals of the
community.—(Loud applause.)
Mr. HINDLEY thought that the dissenters
had not been fairly treated in the opening observa-
tions of the Noble Lord last night. He would
ask the House to look upon the dissenting bodies,
and to look what they had done. They had
spread the blessings of knowledge through the land, and
he therefore asked the House to look with a favourable
eye upon their exertions, He wt .s sanguine in 1839 that
the voluntary principle would be sufficient for the educa-
tion of the pe ,ple. He was at the head of a board
which had collected 120,0001. for the purposes of educa-
tion, and though he found many bright examples of the
munificence of the people, still if he was asked, was
the voluntary principle sufficient, he would be
obliged to say conscientiously that it was not. He could
of course, instance many glorious instances of indivi-
dual liberality. There was one which he could not re-
frain from relating ; it was the case of a gentleman's
servant, who gave il. for himself and 5/. for his wife as
their subscription to the cause of the education of the
people. It was only four years since the plan had been
brought forward, and he thought that the Government
might have given it a longer and a graver trial.
He felt exceedingly jealous on two grounds ; he desired
that the interference of the Government should not
meddle with the civil rights of the people.—(Hear,
hear.) The second point which he would be anxious
to guard against, was that no partiality should
be shown by the Government, and on this point he did
think that the Dissenters had some reason to be jealous.
(Hear, hear.) Did the Noble Lord believe the
Church catechism himself ? Supposing he did not.
Why, he was calling on the schools to teach
that which he did not believe himself.—(Hear.)
He thought that the Dissenters had a prior right to be
represented in a case of this kind, instead of the appli-
cation of the grant being left entirely to the Council and
the Government. The system of pensioning off school-
masters had also his decided objection, on account of the
mode in which it was proposed to be carried out. Such
a grant ought not to depend on minutes of education at
, all. There ought to be an Act of Parliament for a sys-
tem of national education, instead of attempting to do it
by this system of minutes, a hich were changing every
year; the next year, lie had no doutot but that the
minutes would be different to what they are now. In fact,no
security could exist 'elder such a mode. He hoped the
time would come whet Churchman and Dissenter would
meet for works of public good, but at present the y must
deal with the state of thins us they found it, and there-
fore it was thot he must vote again:A. tee proposition of
the Government.
On the motion of Sir W. CLAY, the debate was ad-
journed till Thursdsy Lext.
PUNISHMENT OF VAGRANTS (IRELAND)
BILL.
On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL, this Bill was
read a second time, and ordered to bo committed on
Thura•day week.
AGRICULTURAL TENAN I' RIGHTS BILL.
Mr. PUSEY moved the postpenetrent of the Agricule
tar Tenant Right Bill till Wednesday, May 9.
After some e bn 7..t,ation this was agreed to.
Dl.altEhS IN IRELAND.

Mr. HAWES lain on the table to copy of a dispatch
From the o,,vernor of Newfoundland. communicating
[l-.e t: rant of 500/. for tLe r. Lefo' th.- distress in Ireland.
The Hotta then ad'ourtierl at

PRINTERS' PENSION SOCIETY.
The anniversary dinner of tills society was held yesterday,
at the Loudon Tavern; Luke James Hansard, E 41., in the
chair. The chairman was supported on his sight by Lord
Dudley Coutts Stuart, the Rev. Dr. Stebbing, hi'Dotitiell,
Esq., Dr. Spurgiu, M.D., &c., and on his left by— Shackell,
Esq., &c.
The vocalists engaged on the occasion were Mr. Ransford,
Mr. Kenny, Mr. Robertson, and Mr. Moody ; the pianoforte
accompaniments were ably executed by Mr.- Ransford, jun.
On the removal of the cloth, Non was was sung.
The toasts of " The Queen and his Royal Highness Prince
Albert, her Majesty's Consort," " The Prince of Wales, the
Queen Dowager, and the rest of the Royal Family," " The
Duke of Cambridge, Patron of the Society," and "The
Stationers' Company," having been drunk with an enthu-
siastic feeling,
The CHAIRMAN rese to propose the toast of the evening.
The toast which he was about to propose was one which be
was sure required no preface or apology ; it was " Prosperity
to the Printers' Pension Society," the object of which was
to aid those who, having laboured in their calling, were •
overtaken by the pressure of physical disease, or other cu.
cumatances over which they had no control, from supporting
themselves in their latter days. The object of the society
was to give support to decayed members of a body of men
without whom the master printers were as nothing—with-
out whom the authors themselves would be unable to make
their communications to the public, and without whom
the booksellers' calculations would be void. It ass to
the labour of the compositors and pressmenwtat
so much was owing, and whose benefit they were thatrom t nigheht
assembled to promote. Compositors and pressmen, f
nature of their occupation, were in early life liable to be crip-
pled in limb, and frequently in after life to lose the blessing
of sight. By the contribution of five shillings annually,
those who were subscribers bad been enabled to assist in the
good work of this excellent society„ of continuing pensions
of twelve guineas per annum to males, and eight guineasser
annum to females, who were pensioners on the list. The
compositors and pressmen, from the nature of their profession,
had the opportunity to become the very embodiment of great'
intellect. But for the great machine with which they were.
all connected, they knew that the great blessings of thi
Holy Gospel would not have been spread so widely amongst'
us as it had been. The Hon. Gentleman adverted in glow-
ing terms to the unobserved but never ceasing toil of the.
1 compositors and pressmen, and concluded by proposing the
toast, which was received with reiterated cheers.
Lord DUDLEY STUART said it would indeed be a great re-
proach to this country if those who contributed so efficiently
to the promotion of everything which was good were not
protected and sheltered in the hour of their necessity and
sorrow. All classes of society were more or less i,,debt!d_ to
the labours of the printers and compositors. The Noble
Lord concluded by proposing the" Health of the Cbatowen,'
in very glowing terms.
The CHAIRMAN returned thanks. _ ir;
The song of " The Oak and the Ivy." "composed by • . .
Ransford, was given by thatta gentleman in a manner which
pplause. The song itself poi-
justly elicited the
se es great merit.wa Ones an—encore being demanded, Bk..
e The Monks of Old," by Glover; and here
Ransford sang
the song was received with even greater enthuiasm, and we
are bound to recommend both these productions to the
patronage
of those who have the voice to sing them. The
tatter. especially, is an admirable song, and tilr. Ransfortra
humour added much to the effect.
The CHAIRMAN proposed " The Church and Dr. Steb.
bing."
Dr. STEERING returned thanks, and, in prefacing a
of great eloquence, said that if tie had been promoter ea
bishopric he could not have been snore suprised thaast
being called upon to respond to the toast. In speaking of
the Printers' Pension Society, the Rev. Gentleman said that
he owed much indeed to the printers; to them he owed
not only the income he enj• yed, but the best feelings be
po,stss_ea.
The CHAIRMAN proposed, in a very able speech, " The
Press, the totr:thition of knowledge, the bulwark o' freekm,
and the founder of the three estates and its preserver."
~
31r. SHACKELL returned thanks.
Lord DUDLEY CoUTTs STUART announced donations front
many lady authoresses who had applied to him, which
amounted to 35/. 16s. 6d.
Among the subscriptions were 251. from his Royal High-
ness Prince Albert, who had consented to become patron ount
f
the society ; 501. from the chairman, &c. Th amO
of subscriptions was 3211. 16s.
Among the donors was the name of Miss Jane Porter, the
authoress of " Thaddeus of Wra-saw," float whom a letter to
Lord Dudley Stuart was read. Want of space preventls US
giving a longer account of the proceedings. The dinner:was
excellent. Mr. Higgs officiated as toast master, and vent
throught his duties in good style.

_ -
The Earl and Counteie Granvillehave arrived in tow*
from Paris,