The Sun.
London, England, 1840-05-05 00:00:00

TBE S'' N, LONDON, TUESDAY, MAY 5. 1840.

IMPERIAL PARLIAM

HOUSE OF LOIWS, 111 Ar 4

The LORD CHANCELLOR took seat on the wool-
sack at five o'clock, when there, was a considerable at-
t;:iidancc of Peers upon the Opposition Benches, and
all the Julges were in [tat:Li:lance for tl!e purpose of
their opinions on the questions relative to the
Canada Clergy Reserves.

The Earl oC ROSEBERY presented a petition from
Linlith2-ow against the intrusion of isilinisters.

The Earrof RIPON presented a petition from
members of the Society of Friends residing in Liver-
pool, deprecating a war with China on account of the
trade in opium.

Lord L L UG HBY D'ERESBY presented a
ptitioa front a place in -Yorkshire against alteration of
the Corn-laws.

The Murquis of LONDONDERRY presented
several petitions from Presbyterian congregations in
the county of Donegal against intrusion of Ministers ;
and also a petition from the Master, Wardens, and
brethren of the Guild of Smiths, in the Corporation of
Dublin, against the Irish Municipal Reform Bill.

against Non-Intrusion, and aoinst any grant for the
support of the Catholic religion in the United Kingdom
or the coloni:s.

Lord HATI ERTON presented a petition from
Longdon, in the county of Stafford, praying for Church
accommodation.

The Marquis of NORNIANEY laid on the table
the Fifth Report. or the Criminal Law Cominission.
The Earl of CARDIGAN presented several pe-
titions from various places against any alteration in the
existing Corn-laws.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND).
The Order of the Day tor the second reading of
the Municipal Corporations (Ireland) Bill having
been read,

Viscount MELBOURNE said, notwithstanding the
very great importance of the question, yet the fre-
quency of the debates that had taken place was such as
to render it unnecessary for him to intrude himself at
any length upon their Lordships' time, or trespass upon
their Lordships? patience more than a very fear minutes.
When their Lordships' would recollect that the mea-
sure had been recommended on five different occasions
from the Throne by his late Majesty and its present
possessor--when their Lordships considered that five
Bills had been introduced into the Lower House of
Parliament, and thence sent up for their consideration
—when they recollected that all these Bills had re-
ceived their Lordships' sanction upon the second read-
ing, the principle being thereby recognised and ad-
mitted, and that by that means the measure hail been
stamped with the sanction of their Lordships' authority
—when it was considered that on no side, and from no
quarter, was the main principle of the Bill, viz., the
abolition of corporations in Ireland, as they at present
existed, objected to—when it had been urged by no
persons that it was possible, in the altered state of
things in that country, these corporations, in their present
exclusive character and nature, could remain as they
were, and that it was absolutely necessary to consider
what should be substituted in their places ; he repeated
when all these things were considered, it was not neces-
sary for him to take up their Lordships' time by any ar-
guments upon the general principle of the measure, or
even to go very much into detail upon the provisions of
the measures which had heretofore received the con-
currence and agreement of their Lordships. He would
beg, however, to call the attention of their Lordships to
the state in which that measure stood in the last Ses-
sion of Parliament. The Bill had been sent up from
the other House, and their Lordships had introduced
into it many important amendments. That Bill was
returned to the House of Commons, and, when it was
received back, there appeared a very strong disposition
to meet their Lordships on many of these important dif-
ferences, and the measure only failed in consequence
of the extreme lateness of the Session, the exhausted
state of both Houses, and certain technical Parliamen-
tary objections which were taken to some parts of the
amendments introduced by their Lordships. Under
these circumstances, it was thought wise to introduce
into the other House, at a very early period of the
Session, the measure now before their Lordships ; it
had passed through the House, not with a great deal
of discussion, but at the sense time there had
been divisions at very important stages, which
were supported by very small minorities, and
the Bill was ultimately carried by a large majority,
in which was found most of the principal persons on
both sides of the House. There was therefore a very
general concurrence in that House in sending up the
measure for the consideration of their Lordships. It
came up to that House at a very early period of the
Session, and it was only deferred in consequence of
unfortunate circumstances over which neither he
(Viscount Melbourne) nor Noble Lords on his side of
the House had any control. lie was not sorry that
that delay had taken place, because he hoped they
were now about to conclude thatilong litigated and con-
tested question which had produced much discontent
and irritation. Hewes glad on that account that it should
be determined, after the gravest and maturest conside-
ration, and with as large an attendance of Noble Lords
from all parts of the country as could by possibility
be procured, and altogether under circumstances which
could not afford the slightest grounds for even the im•
putation that it had been carried through in haste,
precipitation, or surprise.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He
did not wish to waste their Lordships' time with
entering into any details as to the scope and object of
the Bill, with which their Lordships were as familiar
as himself. The provisions of the Bill stood in a dif-
ferent shape from those which had been heretofore
proposed to the House, but they wore on the whole
pretty nearly the same in substance with former provi-
sions. With respect to boroughs in Schedule A, it was
proposed, as heretofore, to abolish the existing Corpo-
rations, and to establish Municipal Corporations in their
place. With respect to corporate towns in Schedule
B, the Bill abolished them, but did not establish others
in their stead. It merely gave her Majesty the power,
in case of petitions being presented by the majority of
the rated inhabitant., to establish Corporations in such
towns. With respect to those boroughs in schedule B
which have Commissioners already appointed for manag-
ing their affairs, by the 9th of George IV., the Bill
gave to those Commissioners the administration of corpo-
rate property. With regard to those boroughs which had
no Commissioners, the Bill followed the divisions which
had been made in former Acts of Parliament. It
divided those boroughs which had more than 1001. a
year property from those which had less. It gave
those which had snore than 1001. a year the power of
establishing Commissioners for the distribution and
management of their property. With regard to those
boroughs which had less than 100/. a year, it allowed
that property to be administered by the Guardians of
the Poor in aid of the rates for the general purposes of
the borough. Those details of the Bill with respect to
boroughs, appeared to him to be more distinctly and
clearly stated in the present measure than in those which
preceded it, and they were of a nature to which he
thought no just objection could be taken. It would
only be necessary for bins further to allude to the par-
ticular points on which a difference of opinion had ap-
peared to exist in former discussions between their
Lordships and the House of Commons. The great
difference was, unquestionably, as to the qualification.
The qualification adopted by the Bill for the present
was the same which their Lordships had chosen on
former occasions, viz., a 101. qualification in boroughs
in Schedule A, and an 8/. qualification in others.
That was to continue for three years, and the
same qualification wet then to be est blished
as that which existed in English boroughs under the
English Municipal Act. Another great point on which
they had had much discussion, was the rat;ne of free-
men. It had been stated on the other side of the
House,that the rights bywhich those parties had, orwhieli
they mightestablish by law, were entirely taken away Irons
them by the provisions of the Bill. By the 6th clause,
however, of the present measure, they had protected all
those just rights of the present freemen, which it was
possible to protect. They had merely guarded against
some abuses which unquestionably were likely to arise
from the provisions which had been proposed by the
other side of their Lordships' House. Another subject
on which objections were taken, was the mode of appoint-
ing Sheriffs. The sense provisions were adopted on
that subject in the present Bill, which their Lordships
had adopted in the Bill of last year. If it accused good
to a majority of their Lordship?, they mi6lit however,
it was true, reject the provison. On the subject in
question, and also on the general and permanent quali-
fication in boroughs, they unquestionably had acted on
the principles proposed by their Lordships—principles,
on which he would proceed to make a few observations.
He thought, taking into consideration the circumstances
already stated, and the assent already given to the prin-
ciple of the Bill, it would not have been necessary for
him to have addressed their Lordships at the length he
had done if he had not gathered from what had been
expressed, and from what had passed on the presenta-
tion of petitions, that there prevailed a stronger feeling
in sonic quarters against this Bill at present than had
prevailed on former occasions. But he must state that
the general grounds for passing this Bill were, that they
should not refuse to Ireland, when they could with
safety grant it, that which they had confessed and car-
ried into practice in this country.—( Hear, hear.) He
was not one of those whoever held that language himself
or approved of it in others, that all the destitution and
wretched condition of the population—the crimes and
violence which unfortunately had existed in that country,
were to be attributed to its connection with England—to
the misrule and oppression of this country. If he
thought such were the case, he should think this im-
prudent language to hold, seeing that it could be pro-
ductive of nothing but useless recrimination ; nor
was he of opinion there should be entire equality
between the laws and institutions of the two countries,
believing it to be absolutely necessary to take into
consideration the various discrepancies—the variety of
circumstances that might exist between them ; but,
at the same time he had always held, and should ever
hold, that it was of the highest importance, that the
same degree of confidence should be if possible shown
to each ; and with respect to their rights, immunities,
privileges, and liberties, it was of tho highest importance
that they should, if possible be put on the same footing
generally he
that there should be no difference
betweeaisnttteistittnhloaleceotrrdwnet,h,%hvs:iucatnless when its necessity was clearly
froßiirntfinnitciiatlfilselelist, and generally admitted. It wagon these grounds
he proposed this Bill—he proposed the English
endh
he
rh
ee
vs
renderedpe o fye t trtehoar est
reason
ne N.fi'socesiarisertsrii
eff:ah fooappnbrtlii
o,p
nota, proposed the
conceiv-
ing
Bill, and none whatever in the present circumstances
ed
now than on any former occasion, he begged leave to
move that it be now read a second time.—( Hear.)
The Duke of WELLINGTON then rose, but his
inaudiblee‘vasalinostpsig
n in the gallery. We under-
stoodG. him to say he rose to recommend their Lordships
to go into Committee on the details of the measure.
The expedience of passing the
whoeßillha had
abeen
moveddispu disputed .
by a Noble Marquis near
papers upon the subject ; but whatever might be the
result of the reading of those
be against the contiuuance of corporations of the ex-
elusive character which they had borne in Ireland,
during the last fifty years ; papers, he for one would
but he was afraid that under

the present Bill they would be as exclusive in another
sense, and to that he would he equally opposed.
From the time the measure was first introduced he nod
most of their Lordships had been seeking to avoid that
evil, and to find a mode of electing the government of
corporations which \sould prevent their exclusiveness
in that other direction which there was reason to ap
prehend.—(Hear.) A Noble Friend of his proposal
a mode of government for those towns which would
have bee❑ satisfactory to him (the Duke of Wellington),
to the House, and CO the country, namely, to put an
end to the corporations altogether. (Hear, hear.)
Many Members of the other House supported that
measure ; but it was rinally rejected, and there appeared
to be no prospect whatever of inducing the House of
Commons to adopt such a system. In the wean time
he did not find that the system proposed by the present
measure was very satisfactory to the people of Ireland.
Before lie sat down he would allude to a list of peti
tions which was presented to their Lordships and the
other House of Parliament, and he would show that a
number of towns desired to be placed in Schedule B
instead of Schedule A, so that they should have no cor-
porations. If the Noble Viscount (Melbourne) in-
quired he would find that his measure was
by no means popular in Ireland generally, and
the people did not like the prospect which it
held out of a very large, nay, unlimited taxa-
tion. He recommended their Lordships, however,
to enter upon the consideration of the question; and in
the Committee they would have an opportunity of con-
sidering those petitions, and would see how far the Bill
could be carried. The abolition of the corporations
was not the only plan proposed in the early stage of
this question, and it was also considered what mode
should be adopted for fixing the qualification of bur-
gesses to be eligible to office, or capable of voting.
That qualification should be independent of an oath,
which it was feared could not be depended on in that
part of the country.—(Hear, hear.) He for one never
disagreed to any of the measures upon the subject, until
he saw, by the adoption of the Poor-laws, a system
whereby the qualification of the voter could be clearly
ascertained. But the Poor•law had not been carried
into execution.—(Hear, hear.) The Boards of Guar
dians had not been fairly elected.—(Cheers.) The
Commissioners had not performed their duty—(Cheers)
—and the Government had not obliged them to per-
form their duty.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The qua-
lification depended, in that case, upon the
valuation of the property, and that depended on
the independence, honesty, and fair feeling of
the valuators—(Hear, hear, hear.) But how had the
valuators been named ?—( Hear, hear, hear)—and what
had been the conduct of the Guardians of the Poor,
by whom they had been appointed ?—(Hear, hear.)
The law had not been executed in that respect. It
had been violated purposely, with a view to this very
measure, in order that the qualification of the voters
might not he fairly fixed. It was therefore their
Lordships' duty to examine into this subject, and not to
agree to the Bill until they had some assurance, more
than they had at present, that the law could be car-
ried into effect, according to the intentions of Parlia-
ment, in respect to the qualification. He had con-
sented to the amendments in the Irish Poor-law Bill,
and was satisfied with the qualification ; but, subse-
quently, when he was out of town on public business,
an amendment, inconsistent with the tenor and prin-
ciple of the Bill, with respect to the election of the
guardians, and the qualification of the voters, was in-
troduced op the third reading, without any notice.—
(Hear, hear, hear,) The Noble Duke then referred,
in a tone which was nearly inaudible, to the enact-
ments of the 81st and 85th clauses of the Irish Poor-
law Bill, respecting which, he said, the Law
Officers of the Crown had given an opinion
which was not worth a pin. He entreated their Lord-
ships to agree to the second reading, and let the Bill
go to the Committee, but not to allow it to pass with-
out knowing what would be the operation of the
clauses relating to the qualification. They ought not
to allow the vote to be given without any qualification,
but that which he earnestly recommended no man to
trust to—the oath of the claimant himself. He ear-
nestly recommended them before they proceeded with
this Bill to take care to ascertain how the Irish Poor-
law stood.—(Hear, hear.) It appeared to him extra-
ordinary that the Noble Viscount who introduced the
Bill had not embodied in it those provisions upon which
both Houses of Parliament had been agreed in former
Sessions. The proposition introduced in a former Bill
in that House, relating to the nomination of Sheriffs
by the Lord-Lieutenant instead of popular election,
was agreed to by the House of Commons in 1833.
He could show the Noble Viscount that that was the
case..

Lord MELBOURNE—I don't deny it.
The Duke of WELLINGTON—Then I want
to know why he did not try to get his majority
in the House of Commons ?—( Hear, hear, hear.)
I beg pardon—his friends I mean—(Cheers and laugh-
ter)—to adopt that provision in the present Bill ? He
(the Duke of Wellington) wanted to know whether the
proposition was good or bad, that the Sheriff, an officer
of Justice, should be named by the Crown, and not by
popular election. He wanted to know which was most
consistent with the Constitution of this country.
Lord MELBOURNE said that Sheriffs were chosen
in England.

The Duke of WELLINGTON asked this question,
Was it fit that in Ireland the Sheriff should be named
by the Crown or by popular election ? He wanted
also to know whether other clauses which had been in.
troduced in the Bill of 1838, and agreed to by the
House of Commons, had not been inserted in this Bill ?
He did not think that the omission of them manifested a
very strong desire to carry the Bill through their Lord-
ships' House. The Government proposed to separate
all jurisdiction from the counties of cities upon fiscal
matters. There ought to have been no discussion upon
that part of the subject ; but the Bill had come up in
another shape, and a novel proceeding, it seems,
had been adopted, with a view to get the
matter through with celerity, that was to say, another
Bill had been introduced which was to be part and parcel
of this Bill, introduced only on the 10th of April. The
Corporation Bill had come up on the 10th of 11Iarch,
and their Lordships were then discussing that Bill on
the 4th of May, without knowing anything about the
other Bill, except what they could learn from the news-
papers. The Noble Viscount would, no doubt, call upon
their Lordships to go into Committee upon the Bill, but
until some further information was given upon those
points to which he referred, he should oppose their pro-
ceeding another step after the present proceeding. He
had several objections to the details of the Bill, into which
he would not then enter, as lie did not wish to detain
their Lordships. They had been told this was a very po-
pular measure in Ireland. He held in his band a list of
the petitions presented for and against the 13,11, and he
found that petitions had been presented from Galway
for vesting the property in Commissioners ; from Clot].
mel, praying to be transferred froni
.schedule B ; from
Sligo, to the same effect ; from different parishes in
Dublin, fur vesting the property in Commissioners ;
and against the Bill generally—from Londonderry,
for vesting the property in Commissioners ; from
Cashel, to the same effect ; and another petition
for the Bill as it stood ; from Mar) burgh, for
vesting the property in Commissioners ; from Cork,
against the boundary clause ; from Limerick, against
the boundary clause ; from Armagh, that the qua-
lification might be ten pounds rental, exclusive of
taxes ; and there had been various other petitions on
the subject of compensation. These petitions showed
that the Bill was not so universally admired as was
pretended. He wished to observe to their Lordships,
that all provision for auditing the accounts had been
omitted from the Bill. He had proposed amendments
to the Bill of 1838, requiring a very strict audit of the
accounts, and of the expenditure of the Corporation.
He admitted that he had Many objections t 6 the Bill,
and he for one should endeavour to amend it in Com-
mittee. He earnestly recommended their Lordships to
allow the Bill to be read a second time—to let it go
into Committee, and to amend it as far as was in their
power. He gave notice for one, that if it was not
amended to his satisfaction, he would positively say
" Not Content" on the third reading, and ho hoped
their Lordships would do the same.—(Choers.) (The
Noble Duke throughout his address spoke very low,
and was frequently inaudible in the gallery.)
The Marquis of NORMAN BY said it was not his
intention to trespass on their Lordships' attention for
any length of time, after the declaration of the Noble
Duke, that he should vote for the second reading of the
Bill, but he wished to correct the misapprehension into
which the Noble Duke had fallen, as to the opinion of
the Law Officers on the sth Section of the Poor Law
Amendment Act of last year. The effect of it was
that no person should have a right to rote for the elec-
tion of Poor-law Guardians, unless they had previously
paid all rates. We could not but regret that the
Noble Duke should have expressed an opinion that
the Poor-law Commissioners had not carried out the
provisions of the Bill, because when the papers were
produced, their Lordships would see ample ground for
believing that the Poor-law Commissioners had fairly
• and impartially done their duty, and he must therefore
say that a somewhat hasty censure had been passed on
persons who were engaged in very arduous and delicate
duties. The Noble Duke had alluded to certain peti-
tions against the Bill. He (the Marquis of Normanby)
had been entrusted with petitions from several of those
places—Clonmel and Galway, among others ; but he
had postponed presenting them, because he thought, as
they touched merely the details of the measure, and
affected the interests of particular towns, the proper
time to present nem would be immediately before go-
ing into Committee.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA never laboured under
more painful feelings than in rising to address their
Lordships upon that occasion, differing as he did with
the Noble Duke and many other Noble Lords, for
whose talents and abilities he entertained the highest
respect, and in whose opinions he was at all times dis-
posed cordially to concur. But believing that the Bill
before their Lordships, under the specious garb of
giving corporations, would he found fraught with evils
not only to Ireland, but to this great Protestant empire,
he would lay aside all personal feelings, and consoien..

1 tiously discharge his duty to his country by opposing
the Bill being passed into a law. He maintained the
Bill would destroy all the existing Protestant Corpora-
tions in Ireland, which were the outposts of the Esta-
blished Church, and which, when once destroyed, the.
strongest Government that the country ever :eel could
not restore without a civil war. What would have
been the situatiou of Ireland in 1830 mei i 8:31 if
the civil authorities of the Protestant Corporations had
not extended that timely aid which broke down the re-
bellion which brurst forth in Ii eland, or if the Corpora-
tions had been in the hands of agitators, who were now
using that political power which England had con-
ceded, for the destruction of the Legislative
Union, and the separation of the two countries ?
He believed that the 101 qualification would throw the
whole political power into the hands of a few individuals,
who, with the Rcman Catholic priesthood, had declared
that they would never cease from agitation until they
had thrown off the yoke of England. He was tho-
roughly convinced that if the present measure passed
into a law, it would give the entire political power of
the country to that party. Looking at Dublin be found
that there were 15,000 101. householders, and out of
that number 9,700 were in the hands of the Roman
Catholic party ; if the present measure were passed,
his honest and firm conviction was that they would es-
tablish a democracy of the most fearful character, di-
rected by the worst spirit of intolerance that ever de-
graded a civilised country. If they allowed the Esta-
blished Church to be put down in Ireland, he defied
their Lordships to maintain it in the other country.
That church contributed materially to the moral strength
and to the enforcement of law and order, and if it was
once subverted, anarchy would speedily ensue. Upon
these grounds it was, seeing that it was not in the
power of any legislation to effect an equality in
these corporate towns between the two con-
tending parties, that on a former occasion he
had recommended their Lordships to agree to
to an extinction of all corporations, and put an end to
the animosity and strife they created. He believed
that by adopting that course they would confer a
greater benefit upon Ireland than by perpetuating re-
ligious animosities, and placing power in the hands of
those who are bent upon the destruction of English
connection. What had been the course pursued by
that party with reference to the Poor-laws ? Let
their Lordships look at the manner in which the guar-
dians of the poor had been elected in Ireland. No
Roman Catholic dare to exercise the franchise which
that measure conferred upon him, if he happened to
have an opinion different from that of his priests. The
lists had been regularly proclaimed by the priests from
the altar, and no one dare to oppose their nominees.
How much more would the political power conferred
by the present Bill be used by the Roman Catholic
clergy for the destruction of everything that was dear
to them ! Upon these grounds, objecting to the prin-
ciple of the Bill, and seeing that no alterations could
recommend it to him, he should move that the Bill
be read a second time that day six months.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH would not have
risen but for the allusion that had been made to him by
the Noble Viscount opposite, as to opinions which had
beeu pronounced which had not appeared in the de-
bates. It was certainly true that he did not take the
same prominent part on former occasions as on the
present, and it was, therefore, necessary for him to
state what his feelings then were, and what causes had
now operated to make him view with very increased
alarm the present measure. In voting on former
occasions for the second reading, he had followed those
to whose political opinions he attached the greatest
weight, but recent events had induced him to view the
measure with very great alarm. Among other grounds
was the increased and increasing influence of a certain
party, and Mr. So-and-so at the head of it—(A laugh)
—and although the Noble Viscount had said there was
no confederacy between them, yet they acted together
with great consistency, and all persons now viewed the
measure with the most intense anxiety. It had been
said that if Mr. So-and-so were mentioned, people
shrugged their shoulders, and said, " What have we to
do with that ?" Still it was rather curious that no ap-
pointments were made but such as, through sonic
channel or other, were taking place under that influence.
--(Hear.) The Noble Marquis at the head of the Home
Department had stated that the elections under the
New Poor-law Act had taken place fairly ; but
his (the Marquis of Westmeath's) opinion would be
considered by many of equal weight upon Irish af-
fairs, and it was totally different. If he had
no other documents to rely on than those which
he had received since he had moved for the appoint-
ment of a Committee on the subject, they would have
been sufficient. The Noble Marquis thought that the
Poor-law Commissioners had done their duty, but he
must say that he did not think they had. In England
Mr. Nicholls might have done very well, but in Ireland
a man was required of less soft materials to carry out
the measure firmly and impartially. He should give his
decided opposition to the great portion of the measure,
and if it was not very considerably modified, it should
not-have his support.
The Earl of MOUNTCASHEL had stated that if
any motion was made against the Bill he should sup-
port it, and he would now redeem his pledge by voting
for the amendment. He regretted to be obliged to
differ from the Noble Duke, under whose banners he
always wished to fight. He was convinced that the
present Bill could never be moulded into a proper shape,
and that it would only conduce to the establishment of
Popery in Ireland. He thought it dangerous and un-
just to attack the vested rights of corporate
bodies. He opposed the Bill because it would
increase the power of Popery, and establish a Demo-
cracy. He opposed it because it contained a variety
of clauses highly prejudicial to the constitution of the
country. He opposed it because it would give
amazing power to the mob. He opposed it because it
enabled every pauper to become a burgess. He opposed
it because it qualified every pauper to become a Magis-
trate, and these persons having no character to lose,
would never be respected. He opposed it because it
gave a power to the nominees of the mob to pass most
objectionable bye-laws. They might declare anything
they liked a nuisance—a Protestant school, or a Pro-
testant meeting might be put down by them, on the
ground of a nuisance. He opposed the Bill because it
sanctioned the misappropriation of public buildings, and
these persons might turn them into nunneries or monas-
teries, or Roman Catholic Chapels. These were a few
of his objections to the measure, and on these grounds
he should decidedly oppose it.
Viscount MELBOURNE had merely stated that there
appeared to him to be greater hostility on the present
than on former occasions. With respect to the general
objections that had been taken by the Noble Earl who
had last spoken, they went to the very root and prin-
ciple of the measure. He begged leave to put it to
the Noble Earl, if he was to proceed on the princi-
ple of distrust of the great majority of a people—if
he thought they were not to be trusted with the
management of their own affairs, how was it possible
that the country could be governed, unless they re-
sorted to measures which were inconsistent with the
government and institutions of a free country ?—( Hear,
hear.) Being sincerely anxious to terminate the dis-
cussions of the present question, he was glad to find
that the Noble Duke had given his support to the
second reading, at the samo time he was sorry to
bear the tone and spirit of the observations in which
that support was given. He had hoped that the
Noble Duke would have held language more encourag-
ing. He trusted that on further consideration the Noble
Duke would not find it necessary to make such strong
objections as those he had taken. The Noble Duke
had said that the Poor-law had not been carried out
fairly in Ireland ; and that neither the Government nor
the Commissioners had done their duty. These were
very strong accusations, but they were entirely con-
trary to die information he had received ; and he
trusted, on further consideration, the Noble Duke would
find that they had been hastily urged, and were en-
tirely without foundation. The Noble Duke had ex-
presed his surprise that the present was different from
the Bill of last year. It was very rare to find two
Bills upon the same subject drawn up in the same
words. The question was, not whether the clauses
stood in the same order, or in the same shape, but
whether the whole arrangement was not better for
carrying into effect the main and real objects
proposed by the measure. The Noble Duke asked
why they had not introduced the clauses which had
been agreed to by both Houses, and he particularly
asked why they had not adopted the clauses respecting-
freemen contained in the Bill of 1838 ? Why it had
been stated, over and over again, that they did not un-
derstand those clauses, and they were passed by per in
euriant. When they did look at them, they took con-
siderable objection to them, because they gave a scope
to the creation of freemen which the Government had
not contemplated. The clauses which were now intro-
duced were all that in justice could be asked for, when
at the same time they precluded all the abuses which
might be perpetrated under the former ones.—(Hear,
hear.) He admitted that the Commons had sent
back the B 11, having agreed to the clauses respecting
freemen and sheriffs, but it was a different thing to
, agree to certain amendments for the sake of peace,
and to call upon the other House to bring in a mea-
sure directly contrary to its expressed opinions. The
Noble Duke had asked him why he had not called on
some of his friends to propose some of these clauses in
the other House, but he (Viscount Melbourne) with
more fairness might ask the Noble Duke why he had
not called upon some of his friends to make such a
proposition ?—( Hear, hear.) It was natural that die
parties originating a measure should make it agreeable
to their own views. The Noble Duke objected to
charters being granted upon the petition of the ma-
jority of the rate-payers, but he thought there could he
no fairer test of the opinions and wishes of' any
town or borough. The Noble Duke had said there
were many petitions against the Bill—some of them
were certainly against their Bill, but many relate to
particular parts of the measure, and in sonic of them the
prayer merely was to be transferred from Schedule B to
Schedule A. Whether these petitions were from the
majority of the inhabitants or not, did not appear, but
unless the majority of the inhabitants of the country