The Sun.
London, England, 1841-01-27 00:00:00

Noble Lord then read the address, which was an echo
of her Majesty's speech.

Mr. GRA'NTLEY BERKELEY in rising to se-
cond the address to the Crown, was happy in having
that opportunity of congratulating the House and the
country on the foreien and domestic policy pursued
by her Majesty's Government.-- (Hear, hoer, henr.)—
Although attached to a Liberal policy as be was, and 1
a supporter of the present Government as he had been
on runny and important occasions, 3et he felt con-
vinced he should not offer to the ear of that House
one single sentence of congratulation that would
not meet with the views of all who heard him.
He was fain to believe that there did not exist a nun
in England, Ireland, or Scotland whose breast had been
dead to the news a hich arrived by every Indian mail,
detailing the triumphs of British arms throughout the
length and breadth of the continent of India. He con-
gratulated the country, and he congratulated the Govern-
ment upon the Chinese war, as being so advantageous
to the great commercial interests of that country, and
here let him remind the House that among the
anery discussions of last Session, Ministers were on the
verge of losing the reins of Government for not having
counselled a submission on the part of that country to the
indignities of Commissioner Lin, and the injuries which
British merchants had sustained—(Hear, hear)—he
would remind the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
Pembroke ; and, although he now heard him, that
Right Hon. Baronet could not forget that he had
been greatly instrumental in opposing the motion
when it was brought forward. Still he felt confident
that the Right Hon. Baronet was too generous a po-
litical foe, and too enlightened a statesman, not to join
hint and the House in congratulating the country on its
present triumphant position. When operationscommenced
against China, the remoteness of the seat of war, the
novelty of the circumstances, and the enormous nume-
rical strength of the power against which they were to
contend, might well have raised a doubt in the minds of
some as to the issue ; but they had now seen that the
policy which had given instructions to the Admiral
commanding on the station was founded on the most
just calculations. It must be most gratifying to the
breasts of all, that a mere handful of men, schooled
to forbearance, but determined on success, had humbled
the brutal pride of an enormous empire, and forced the
Emperor of China for the future to regard the humblest
English merchant, while trading with that country with
honour and respect. Not only was the highly-trium-
phant policy of the Noble Lord likely to be productive
of beneficial results in a !percentile point of view, but
he was indexed to regard them in a religious point of
view—(A laugh)—and that the dawning light WAS
about to break through the darkness of that idolatrous
land.—( Bear, hear, hear.) The mass of the Chi-
nese people had been taught that they were
dealing with an enlightened and powerful nation, instead
of with humble barbarians, and not only had England
been brought into greater repute by that policy, but
their commercial interests would be hereafter much
better attended to. Look at the conduct of this coun-
try in Syria—look at the glorious and brilliant career
et our Navy, and the unprecedented bombardment and
taking of St. Jean d'Acre, which was not more honour-
able to the Gallant Admiral ,who commanded than to
;eery officer and seaman engaged ; and he would
not forbear from referring to the subject, although
a relative of his own was engaged in these operations.
Let them look at the simple facts. The first landing
of the Turkish troops and British and Austrian marines
was effected on the 10th and 11th Septe:nbcr. The
Turkish troops amounted to about 6,000, the British
marines to about 1,500, and the Austrians to 250 ; the
whole did not amount to 10,000 men. The troops of
Ibrahim amounted to 6,000 men, in different parts of
the country, but the people of the country were all
against him, having been driven by cruelty and oppres-
sion to desperation. They therefore flocked to the sea
beach for weapons, and from first to last received 30,000
stand of arms. A Turkish reinforcement followed the
first expedition, and then from 12,000 to 14,000 Turkish
troops were engaged. These troops, he thought, had
found in Commodore Napier a man possessed of the
must dauntless courage, of the most daring enterprise,
and gifted with a eenius available alike on laud and
water.—( hear, hear, and laughter.) Fort after fort,
and town atter town surrendered to their joint attacks.
The Egyptians, whenever they could escape from their
tyrants, came to make submission. The fortress of Acre,
which had defied Napoleon at the head of his best
troops, and had withstood every attack of Ibrahim him-
self in 1831 and 1832, surrendered to a British and
Austrian squadron, after an assault of less than four
hours. Never had the skill and valour of the British
Navy displayed itself to greater advantage, or with less
loss, their mortality having amounted to no more than
160 men. Compare this attack with that of Algiers, and
look at the results. In the latter had been lost 800 men,
yet this was considered as one of the greatest exploits of
I the British Navy. What, then, remained to them but
congratulation. By sea and land their arms were
successful. The policy of his Noble Friend
11 had made this country the arbitrator of foreign
I nations in spite of the attacks of France, and the cry
at borne. The Government had done their duty, and
were it the last act of his Noble Friend, he might
fairly exclaim—
" To-morrow do thy worst, for I
Have lived to di..y."
—(Laughter.) In alluding to the Foreign policy of
Ministers, he should refer to our relations with Ame-
rica. He could not do better on this subject than quote
a brief sentence or two, with the permission of the
, House, from the Message of the President of the
Powers
ofthe to thewo rld our relations
House of Congress. The Hon. Member here read a
followingeffec
ar
e
those :Te
those of honourable peace. The excitement which grew
p, a
Withs sag e fromall
the thep o
w Messagee
out of the territorial controversy between the United
States and Great Britain having subsided, it is to be
hoped that a favourable period is approaching for its
termination. From the nature of the points in debate,
and the undoubted disposition of both parties to
bring the matter to a conclusion, I look with
confidence for a prompt and satisfactory conclu-
sion of the negotiations."—(Hear.) The spirit of that
passage proved that the Government of England had
done their duty in relation to that question. There
was' a recommendation in the President's Message to
which he also wished to refer. That recommendation
had for its object the diminution of the legal traffic in
slaves, and he would wish that the advice were
taken by England, wherever her dominions ex-
tended, and that she should endeavour to eradi-
cate the evil wherein it existed. That trade
had now assumed a darker form than ever front the
injustice which it did to those who honestly conformed
to the law. Wherever that trade prevailed it should
be abolished with even-handed justice. Let him,
therefore, express a hope on that topic, that the time
was not far distant when her Majesty's Ministers would
brim, forward a complete,generous, thoroughly-provided-
for, effective measure, unrestricted to any particular re-
gion, for the importation of free labourers not only to the
Mauritius, but to the whole of our West Indian colonies.
But to return to subjects of congratulation. We had
now the full flush of important victories upon our
G
mind, grateful to the people, honourable to theovernment, and glorious to the country.—(Hear,
hear.) He would now glance at some points
in our civil and domestic affairs—and first to
the New Poor-law system. The introduction of that
system was one instance amongst many of the erro-
neous feeling with which alterations of an old law is often
received by a large portion of the people. 'The new law
was, there could be no doubt, in the first place, de-
cidedly unpopular, and it frequently happened
that the most unfit men were made the instru-
ments of carrying it into effect.—( Hear.) He
knew instances in his own county of the
improper and oppressive administration of the law on
its first coming into operation. In one case he knew
relief to be refused to an aged couple—both upwards of
eighty years of age—who refused to go into the
workhouse, and who bad never before applied for
relief in the whole course of their industrious lives.
Now, however, the provisions of the law were carried
properly into effect. The poor were now feeling and
acknowledging its advantages. There existed now no
doubt that the Poor-law Amendment Act was pro-
gressing in the most satisfactory manner. In his own
county the rates were reduced twenty per cent., as
compared with the three years preceding the passing of
that Act. On the sth of January 1836, there were
in that county 846 able-bodied men receiving
parochial relief. On the sth of January 1841, there
were but "6.—( Hear, hear.) In spite of letters, writ-
ten from the felons' cell, to stir up discontent and to
render the law odious. In spite of these and other sub-
terfuges resorted to by persons who sought only by such
means to screen themselves from responsibility, it could
not be denied that, generally throughout the coun-
try, the great mass of the people showed an im-
proved disposition to look to consequences.—(Hear.)
He might safely say that the snow ball of the Chartists
—rolled, in the first instance, by a disaffected people
who had nothing to lose but everything to gain—by
confusion had melted away before the wise mea-
sures of her Majesty's Ministers and the returning good
sense of the people. Incendiarism was forgotten, and
the day labourer could now retire its peace to his
cottage. He begged pardon of the House for having
trespassed so for; upon its attention, but a sense of
duty, and a feeling of gratitude to the Government
which he had so often supported, and at other times so
freely opposed, had led him to make these remarks.
He would now express a hope that her Majesty's
Ministers,
having been Si) successful in using the art
of war, would for the time to come sedulously
cherish the greater blessing of peace, widely and gene-
rously extending such civil and religious benefits as
might prove blessings to mankind whatever their state
or station, their creed or colour. Impressed as he was
with the propriety of the Address of his Noble Friend,
with respect to the reasons of congratulation both on
eccuunt of our domestic state and cur foreign af-
fairs, he hoped that at such a thrice happy period,
• he sunshine, cereenrel, and ti

they would Ll:cte in a
tory Address, expressing their sincere loyalty and af-
fection, and their deep sense of gratitude for the

general prosperity which, under Divine Providence, 1
the Government rf.icy had produced.
Mr. GROTE rose arid said, In offering to the I
House a few remarks upon the Address which
leid been proposesi for tzioption, he should not
think it necessary f o examine in letai! the Speech ,de-
livered from the Throne, nor to touch upon all, nor
even upon most, of the topics which it brought before
them. He reed hardly say that in the expression of
congratulation which it had bean propoicd ~tF,:r 1,.
her Majesty with refeienee to the birth or
the Princess Reya!, he most sincerely concurred.
He was sure that upon that point at least there would
he no difference of opinion in the House. The Speech,
taken as a whole, ;appeared to him not to be very rich
in promise. It dwelt principally upon foreign affairs—
topics certainly of great importance, but he must also
remark, that ever; with regard to foreign affairs the topics
which it omitted to notice, and which must be
present to the mind of many who heard him, were hardly
of less importance than those to which it referred. There
was one topic amongst those noticed in the Speech
which was pre-eininent above the rest in interest and
importance, and which had excited discussion and en-
gaged men's minds to a very remarkable degree since the
House last mat. He alluded to the Syri4n expedition,
its causes and its consequences. Upon that topic he
should entreat permission of the House to address to
them a few remarks. In approaching the subject it.
was his first duty to say that he thoroughly and heartily
concurred in the remarks which had been made, both
by the mover and seconder of the Address,
in commendation of the gallantry, the efficiency,
and the naval skill and decision which had been dis-
played by our army and fleet on the Syrian coast. No
one could feel that inure sincerely than he did. But
while he perfectly coincided with the Noble Mover of
the Address in applauding the merits of our officers and
our seamen, he was sorry to say that he could not coin-
, cide in applauding the spirit in which that expedition
had been conceived, or the purposes it was intended
to accomplish.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. G.) could not
forget that they had been exerting their force against
persons with whom they had not the slenderest ground
of quarrel. Neither Mehemet Ali nor his partisans,
nor any person in Syria, had inflicted the smallest
wrong or damage either upon Englishmen or upon Eng-
' lish interests.—(Hear.) They had no complaints to
redress, no injuries to revenge, no ground for anger or
displeasure against any body ; nay, so far as England
was concerned, and the Christians resident in Syria, it
stood upon record that they had been befriended by the
Government of the Pacha of Egypt. Whether his Go•
;remnant had been comparatively better or compara-
tively worse than the Turkish Government which
preceded hint, it had been indisputably authen-
ticated that Christians in Syria had been better pro-
tected by him than they ever were by the Govern-
ments which preceded him. They found it attested
both by Colonel Campbell and by Dr. Bowring, under his
Government the trade of England with Sytia had been
considerably increased ; that the number of English
merchants there resident had greedy multiplied, and
that the Christian residents generally, to whatever de-
nomination they might belong, enjoyed both justice in
dealing as to their property, more extended civil rights,
and a firmer protection agaiust the violence of fanatical
ussulmans, than: any Turkish Government had con-
ferred upon them.--( Hear, hear.) If then our expe-
dition had attacked and expelled the Pacha of Egypt
without any of the ordinary and universally recognised
motives, he would ask upon what grounds was it under-
taken ? They had been told that that expedition was
undertaken as a part of a scheme of policy which had
for its object_ to maintain the independence and into
grity of the Ottoman empire. On referring back, they
found that a guarantee for such maintenance was given
on the 27th of July, 1839 i by the Five Great Powers
of Europe. He (Mr. Grote) must say that to hint
this explanation of the object and the principle of
the expedition was not sufficiently satisfactory. He
could not admit the policy or the propriety
of the expedition ; still less could he admit
the policy or the propriety of that system which it pro-
posed to enforce generally, or of that guarantee which it
proposed to carry into effect with reference to
the integrity of the Ottoman empire. He
would, far toe present, make no allusion to the
proclaimed repugnance of Franca to the Treaty
of last July ; he would suppose that France
had acquiesced in that Treaty, and he was still pre-
pared to contend that the expedition against Mehemet
Ali was neither a wise nor a legitimate expedition.
The guarantee which was given by the Allied Powers
of Europe, on the 27th of July, 1889, pledged those
Powers to the maintenance of the integrity of the
Ottoman empire under the existing dynasty. That
guarantee admitted of two constructions. They might
either take it as a covenant between those Five Powers
to abstain from any encroachment upon the Ottoman
empire—a covenant to abstain themselves, and to
secure to the Sultan all his rights and territo-
ries unimpaired, so far as all foreigners were
concerned ; or they might take this guarantee in its
larger and fuller sense, as a bond to secure to the
Turkish Sultan and his successors the whole Turkish
empire entire and intact, to guarantee him against all
chance of resistance or invasion or division of his
territory, either from: external or internal causes, and
l to secure him, by forcible and positive interference,
from any attempt at resistance or emancipation on the
part of any of his subjects. Construed in the first sense,
the guarantee was a declaration on the part of the Five
Powers to defend the Porte against foreign invasion,
and in that light it might lead to much embar-
rassment ; but in its larger and fuller sense, it
appeared to him objectionable upon every ground,
uncalled for, impolitic, indefinite in point of ex-
tent, and indefensible upon any correct views
of international obligation. He hoped Gentlemen would
not be displeased if he asked them whether they had
considered the extensive consequences implied in this
obligation on the part of England to maintain the in-
tegrity of the Ottoman empire against all causes of dis-
memberment or disruption, internal as well as ex-
ternal ? Had they ever studied the past course of
Turkish history, so as to have become Acquainted with
the character and working of that Government to
which they were thus lending an artificial perpetuity ?
—(Hear, hear.) Were they aware that quarrels of
the Pachas one with another, and disobedience of
Pachas towards the Porte, were almost a part of the
order of nature in the Ottoman empire?—(rear,
hear.) Were they then prepared to promise to the
Sultan support against every disobedient Pacha ? Why,
suppose any other Pacha in the Turkish empire, the
Pacha of Bagdad, or any other, should find
means to appropriate to himself two or three neighbour-
ing Pachalics, would they say to the Sultan, " Don't
take the trouble to come to any terms with this rebel—
here is a fleet and an army ready to subdue him ?"
(Hear.) Or suppose another case, one by no means
unlikely to occur. Suppose these very Syrians, to whom
they had been supplying muskets to put down the
Pacha, should rise and employ these very muskets in
establishing their own independence of the Sultan ?
(Hear, hear.) Were they to send a fresh expedition
for the purpose of reconquering them ? He did not
know whether gentlemen had troubled themselves to
analyse all that was contained in that guarantee, and in
the policy which had been pursued, but this he knew,
that it' they acted consistently with such policy, they
would find themselves compelled to interfere, not only in
the cases which he had supposed, but in thousands
of analogous cases which would arise. There was a pecu-
liar reason assigned for our interference in the affairs of
the Ottoman empire, and it was one connected with
Russia. Many persons said that if this country did not
interfere in the East, Russia would ; and if she did, she
would be able to promote her own ambitious views on
the subject. That was an argument one heard very often.
Now, it appeared to him that that argument, with respect
to Russia,went on a supposition which,w hen plainly stated,
would appear absurd and inadmissible. It implied
that the fact of this country's being desirous of arresting
the career and the ambitious designs which Russia was
supposed to pursue against Turkey—that, with the fact
of this country's being desirous of doing that, she had
no better means to employ than to outbid the offers
of the Emperor Nicholas to the Sultan.—( Hear, hear.)
That was what the argument supposed; it supposed
that if he increased his forces w e were to increase ours ;
so that all those offers which the Emperor of Russia,
animated by some sinister object of his own,
thought fit to make, we, having no sinister objects, had
to make on our parts. He should say it appeared to
him that a plain statement of the argument was enough
to show how little it ought to have guided our councils.
It degraded the foreign policy of this country into a
blind imitation of whatever Russia might choose
to do. It gave no security at the same time
against Russian ambition except such as was
to be most troublesome, costly, and least effective.
It would appear, in fact, as if we had no better chance
of rescuing Constantinople from Russia than constantly
outbidding the Emperor Nicholas in offers of service ;
and we certainly had very little chance of succeding in
that way. But it was fortunate that we did possess a
more powerful machinery for the purpose than any thing
implied in the argument he had been stating. 'The
real security against the ambition of Russia, as
regarded Constantinople, was to be found in the direct
terror of our army. The fleets and the armies
of England, ready to be employed in the prevention of
the designs of Russia, formed a guarantee against her
usurpations, well known and sufficiently effectual. So
long as the Emperor knew that he could not hold Constan-
tinople without incurring the enmity of England, so lorg
might we be assured that he would not make an attempt on
the independence of the Ottoman empire. The objectien
against the expedition to Syria, was one that required no
proof—it was this that we could not have acquired by' that
expedition any increased security against Russian aggres-
sion. Why, Russia was herself' the main instigator of the
enterprise. We had been taking securities against Russia
at the instance, and with the co-operation of Russia her-
self. We were consulting the very party whom we sus-
pected cf entertaining treacherous designs.—(Hear, hear.)
Unless they supposed that the Russian negotiator Mr.
13ror,p-Au--who ireer s. Grote) had erre
eneidea .Al. a IhiL0:1 01 very distinguishi.a
unless he was ruining his own harvest, the Government
of this country must have been mistaken. One of those
conclusions must be wino to—eitlier Russia bad 319 ar

gre-siv.edesigns at all, at in ti at ca3e their tn-tiv,

rmeddlin4 fell to the ground, and their pr'c in
were superfluous ; or else the had aggti.tss:ve desienr.,
they were such as could be executed as well after the ex •
pulsiou from Syria of Mehemet Ali as before it. Cheoee
ehich alternative they might, lie sheid.l say that the curie
t of Russia herself was the best evidence that the ex.-.
peditine affercled to us no possible security against any de-
ettie she might entertain. Finding nothiies which coelst
appear to bun to be sound or sat4actory in the arguniews
:n support of the policy of the Noble Lard,he wets come
polled to take a decided objection to it; and when he re-
fleeted that a formidable navy had been sent to the Syrian I
coast, not for the purpose of preventing any wrong to
England—( Hear)—not for the purpose of procuring any
advantage to the nation—not even for the purpose
of repellieg foreign invaders from the Ottoman empire,
but for the purpose of assisting the Sultan to subdue a
powerful and disobedient neighbour—he considered that
object to be neither a wise nor a legitimate one for British
arms or British interference. If they told him that they
were done in pursuance of t general system of policy,
founded on guarantees, for the purpose of suppressing I
.ether attempts to dismember the Ottoman empire—in his
( Mr. Grote's) view of the question, this only made the
matter worse. Other Governments might enter into such
guarantees, but with his coesent England should never do
so. If that principle were acted on, they might equally
sell enter into guarantees with regard to Persia ur the
Empire of Morocco ; such a policy, however, would be
reckless and extravagant on the part of the Government
of England. It could produce no national benefit,
while it would involve the country ill expenses
.vhich he would defy any imagination to anticipate.
The expulsion of Mehemet Ali from Syria had been now
consummated, whether for good or evil, but the system of
policy pursued towards the Ottoman Empire was preg-
natit with perils. It had been opened only on the first
page, and menacing enough that page was. We had in-
deed escaped—and he fervently trusted we should escape
—the present terrible reality of anything in the nature
of a European war ; but he d'd not the less fear that we
had been urged on to the verge of one.—(Hear, hear.)
It should be remembered that the premonitory symptoms
of such an event were in themselves full of actual mis-
chief.—( Hear.) England and all the other nations of
Europe kept up war establishments—(Hear)—and main-
tained the position of what w .s nssvca!led an armed peace.
Now that in itself was no light os irivial evil.—( Hear.)
But the feeling in which it originated was of a hostile
tendency ; it multiplied the uncertainties as to the future,
arrested the outlay of capital, and awakens dreams ut can-
quest which inflamed men's minds in one place whilst it raised
anxious apprehensions in another. These phenomena acre
great evils in themselves. Let the House contrast the sen-
timents of the English and French people towardscach other
in the beginning and close of the pest year, and would
;icy man say that that change was not to be deplored ?
( Hear, heart—would any man say that it was a subject of
congratulation so unqualified as the Noble Lord had re-
presented ?—( Hear, hear.) He had often heard it said by
her Majesty's elenisters, since 1830, that the alliance be-
'wccu England and France was a leading feature in their
system of foreign policy, and was the best security for the
tranquillity of Europe. How often was it a matter of con-
gratulation to every enlightened mind, that the hostility
which embittered those neighbouring nations against teem
other down to 1815, was giving way, and relations of
amity and private intercourse were rapidly multiplying, so
that the mere contemplation of a state of war was be-
coming intolerable. But how stood the fact now ? The
feeling of union between the countries had passed away--
be the blame distributed as it might between both parties,
the old European jealousies of 1815 had been revived,
and especially on the part of the nation ehich was van-
quished at that time.—( Hear, hear.) Nothing- was heard
of now, at both sides of the Channel, especially in the lead-
ing organs of public discussion, but clamorous demand: for
reparation on the one side, and disdain and scorn on the other.
What a contrast was there in the beginning and close of the
past year. Entertaining a high esteem for tlte French
nation, he looked upon the rupture of the ahance as a
singular mistortuua to both parties ; and he deplored it
the more, when he was compelled to recollect that the
initial cause of this change—the tropical point from which
the sun of peace began to avert his rays from the nations
of Europe, originated with the Treaty of J uly. --( Hear.)
He entreated the House to look to what benefits had ac-
crued by our victories which counterbalanced the revival
of the hostile feelings of 1815. The Noble Lord had said
that the Eastern Question was settled, but let him recollect
what he had unsettled.—( Cheers.) The Noble Secretary
for Foreign Affairs had cured a distemper in the extremity
of our continental system, and bad driven it into the heart
and vitals. He had awakened feelings in men's bosoms
which were fearfully infectious, and would spread from land
to land. Against such risks and mischiefs, was it sufficient
consolation that order reigned in Syria, and that we had
overreached Russia by a Russian method of cam-
paign.—(Hear.) It was complained against the French
Minister, that he i isked a European war upon so unimpor-
tant a question as to whether Mehemet Ali should retain
Syria. Now he (Mr. Grote) asked what mischief would
have arisen if the settlement of the Syrian question had
been postponed, or if it had been left in the same state as
by the Treaty of Scutari, in 1833, upon which the Noble
Lord congratulated the House in March 1834, that the
differences of the Porte and Mehemet Ali had been satis-
factorily settled? Ile possessed in July last no greater
territory than that settlement awarded to him. Tee
Sultan endeavoured to counteract it in 1839. What the
Sultan tried then to do, the Noble Lord had done for him
in 1840, by the Syrian expedition. The Syrian expedi-
tion was avowedly to rupture the convention of Scutari, in
subservience to the new settlement of the Ottoman em-
pire. Would the new settlement be any more lasting ?
He knew that it would last so long as the Noble Lard
held the irresistible force he then pessesscd. By the
same means the Convention of Scutari might have
been made lasting, and the expedition to Syria,
and the rupture with France have been avoided.__
(Hear, hear.) If then he could admit the necessity
for interfering by force of arms to support the weakness of
the Ottoman Empire, he should still deny that the Noble
Lord had taken the most unexcepionabie mode for the
accomplishment of that object. Having a knowledge of
the Convention it was his duty to take all reasonable
means of maintaining that settlement, but if the Noble
Lord chose to become himself the direct instrument of
subverting the settlement of Scutari, and to introduce
a new settlement of the Ottoman empire, he said it was
his (Lord Palmerston's) bounden duty to see that the new
settlement was not such as could afford any ground of
quarrel or disunion or hostility among the Great Powers
of Europe.—( Hear and cheers.) That was a good
and proper object, and how the Noble Lord's plan
had accomplished it, the events of the last six melees toll.
He would reason thus it he could acquiesce in the pre._
ciple laid down of the obligation of Great Britain to in-
terfere to maintain the integrity of the Ottoman empire,
but in this principle he could not agree. Believing as he
did, and feeling strongly as he did, respecting the
Syrian expedition, he had troubled the House at greater
length than he had wished. He had only a few words to
add. If in respect of our internal affairs we were des-
tined to obtain no further progress—it the cold shadows
of finality had at length cast their shade upon, and inter-
rupted all the visions and growing hopes associated with a
Reform Ministry, and had perished like an exploded
bubble, at least with regard to foreign affeirs let them
preserve that which had been bequeathed to them by an
unreformed and a reformed Ministry—he meant peace
with foreign Powers, but more especially with our nearest
neighbour—France. He thought me- most valuable and
most comprehensive interests had been pit to haz ird for
an object not only remote, but on which we might have
bad their co-operation. He therefore declined concurring
in any sentiment of co-operation or acquiescence in the
foreign policy of the Government.—( Cheers. )
Mr. JAMES thought the merit, of the foreign policy
of the Government spoke for itself in its results, and
needed no defence. He hoped the country would be long
spared the calamities of the policy of :the Hsu. Gentleinae
opposite.—( Cheers.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was anxious, as soon after
the commencement of the Session as possible, and as sa
as possible after the objections to the foreign policy of the
Government had been stated, to state his views of that
foreign policy, and to explain to the House the grounds on
which he rested his approval and support of that foreign
policy. He felt confident, with regard to any further ob-
jections which might be urged relating to those questions,
that his Noble Friend, the Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs, would be quite ready then, as on any future occa-
sion, to give to Parliament the fullest explanation of the
grounds on which he had acted in pursuing the course
which he had pursued, It would be in the remem-
brance of the House that her Majesty, at the com-
mencement of the last Session of Parliament, had
informed the House that the Great Powers of Europe
had been unanimous in arresting the hostilities which had
taken place in the Levant, and her Majesty had further
expressed a hope that such unanimity might continue, and
that the result might be the upholding the integrity and
independence of the Ottoman empire, and the giving fresh
securities for the peace of Europe. He regretted to say,
and the Hon. Member for London could not feel greater
regret than he did, that the hope which had been expressed
that unanimity might continue among the different Powers
on this subject had not been realized ; end there was no
one of the Powers of Europe whose separation from the
rest, with regard to the affairs of the Levant, he had seen
with greater regret that the secession of France.—
(Cheers. ) But with regard to the great object Which
they had had in view, they had succeeded, they had upheld
the integrity and independence of the Ottoman empire,
and had maintained the peace of Europe; and he under-
stood that the Hon. Member for London admitted such to
be the case. But with regard to the policy by which these
objects bad been effected, he understood that the views of
the Hon. Gentleman differed entirely from his own. He
(Lord J. Russell) however, believed that the course
which had been pursued was, if not the only course, at
least the course of all others the most likely to conduce
to the preservation of the integrity and independence of the
Ottoman Empire, and to the preservation of the peace of
Europe. There was no necessity for him to address any
lengthened argument to them on this head, inasmuch as
in the answer to the Address of last Session, the House had
expressed its approval of their objects. The Hon. Mem-
ber for London himself, and the other Hon. Members
who differed with the Government as to the means pur-
sued, all admitted that the preservation of the integrity
and independence of the Ottoman, Empire eves a subject
of paramount importance. But the Hon. Member for
London took a different view of the measures to he pur-
sued for the purpose of effecting this object. The Hon.
Member, with his usual petspicuity, had informed the
House what he considered to be the proper pacific policy
which ought to have been pursued. It seemed to be the
opinion of the Hon. Member that the preservation
of the peace of Europe would be best attained
by this country interfering as little as possible, except
upon very special occasions. Now he trust differ from
him. He could not conceive that a country like this,
with so many possessions in different quarters of the globe,
••,e-ineeted :is it was with all the Neel s of Europe so in-

i-l?.intainirTy bPlinc2 pcwer pre-
serving the peace of Europe, could maintain that balance
of power and preserve that peace without continually in-
tcrteriag iu affairs which might arise calculated to destroy

)101ININN;

the balance 01 pewee eed to prise.e tih p
Cheers. ) If they appeelect to itetther;ia co this
sitt.jacti, would lee"( to The cowse wiiieh aaa h• pt,ra
sued by the most pacific: Minister that ever gui ied the dn"
tiaies of taia eetsatry, be meant ST ELbert
far from adoplieg the line of policy tail :lean
Hon. G nt!ernen that great than was constanily. tli",
every +there, interfering teith counsel anil
advice, throwirg the weight of Englend alternatftlY Int°
the one scale or the other, a; the preservation of the
balance of power might require; and rot only dld
take a part in cegotiatiere but he iererfered with the
e
Peet, insomuch, thet 111 one Swatter he demanded a sulliY
far the equipment of a fleet of thirty nail, and 8,10,
for the purpose of maintaining the peace of Europe!
and who during the whole period of Lis power ricyerol,
gaged this country in wet except upon one occas:o3ei
when he suffered' his own better judgment to be or cr-rule
by the judgment of others. With regard to the partictiis
case now under their consideration, he doubter' whether the
e
policy recommended by the Hen. Member was S}!" lc
most likely to conduce to the preservation of pewit..
understood the Hon. Member to say that in his vn'i' there
te
was no necessity whatever for iriterferiug between
Porte and Mehemet Ali, but that in ease Russia 'int'',
advance into Turkey and establish herself at Constatilint.'
plc, that their own fleet and own army should he pot
motion, and we should Ceclare to Russia tiiat the iii;egov.
and independence of the (Montan empire must he r
served. But let them suppose a case—let them sunpl
that Turkey should say to Ei gland, here is a rebe:llen
Pacha who is interfering with and undermining my a"thwe
rity, and I feel it impossible to maintain my independence,
against him without your assistance, and that Engia.%
should decline to interfere, or to express an oPild
on that subject. Suppose, then, that Turkey she'',
say she must then look to Russia and
tart
Russia alone for assistance, and Rusaia %vele to tar.
Turkey under her own exclusive protection— ( Cheers)!
and Russia yielding to the temptation, which it weuldb's
almost impossible for a Power possessed of her vast Wine
to resist, should take the opportunity of gratifying that °Pe
bition which must necessarily arise in her in consequce,ee
cf our inertness—(Cheers)—and her ambition would
increased just in proportion to your want of energy srl
vigour. Would it be sufficient that you should say n?;
Would she retreat at your summoning when tier artniti
had been ordered into the positions which she had assignee:
to them, and when she was proceeding to execute
intentions which perhaps she might have already declarer
in the face of Europe? Would not the peace of Filitt:Pa
be in greater danger in this latter case front the Pct.'',
line of policy advocated by the Hon. Gentleman,
from the course which her Majesty's Government n'n,
adapted? —(Chears.) He would admit to the Hon. G,,:d e
tieen en that the interference of this country was not caller
for in every case of a difference between the bead of tr.(
Ottoman empire and one of his rebellious Pashas ; that,
the Pacha of Albania, or any other Paella should be
obedient and rebellious to the Sultan, or that if the St.ol,
should find that his power in Syria was net suffiel'.l4
strong to put down any mountaineers who might he inelli3,
4
",
to disobey him, •hat that would he no case toi.nlj,
interference. Toe fault of the argument of the Ho
Member was, that he considered these cases to be all et
—that he made no distinction—teat he consideredit ',ell
cessary to lay down a mathematical rule to ragulite
cases of interference between the Sultan and his
—that we were bound either never to interfere at he
.or to interfere in every case that might arise. Outls
utterly denied that it was possible to Ise down any „u
with such exactness. Human affairs were not of sufbla
nature as to admit of the application of such invarlice,'
rules.--(Cheers.) They must judge of the eirelonstance,
of each case as it might arise, whether those eircumsten„,e
were likely to interfere with the preservation of tie! neia
of Europe. Now what was the ease with reael'Ad,
Turkey ? A war had horn coded by the Treaty ofd
rianople, following other wars, the result of which 41,
been greatly to we,ken Turkey. The Sultan, whose.k
dependence we had always professed our intention ri4o'
to maintain, constantly urged on the English Ann
sador the danger to vi Bich lie was exposed f 0 i 0 00
Egyptian Pacha ; and he certainly said that it
ad,
1 necessary for hint to have the protection of Engtiaa
! if England would give it to him, or the proteckia
of Russia if Russia were ready to give it to ;he
against the eneroachments.of his rebellious vassal, 0,0,
was every day endangering his safety and indepeptle
A conflict at length took place between the troops of
hieli
Pacha and those of his Sovereign, the result of
threatened still more deeply the Turkish Empire. 0.
Sultan, after the defeat at Nezib, certainly asked the 01
sistance of this county against the Paella. It 17'9,1
11
given to him for reasons which his Noble Friend hSb
that time explained to the House. The result had
gel
that Russia had afforded to Turkey the assistance' 01
Russia had, as he thought, most imprudently, but vela
not unnaturally, considering her position, secureas",,est
tam peculiar. advantages to herself by the
of Unkiar Skelessi —( Cries of " Hear.") He tberTni
Russia had acted imprudently, because, without On.; pi
to herself any substantial increase of power, Reaeli'e
given wanting to Europe that if that Treaty st.hejtb.
followed by tther acts, the result would be to estahll „era
exclusive protectorate of Russia over Turkey. Stichoeea
the vices which the Government of this country 106 dada
' of that Treaty, and official representations had WO, eat
to Russia that the Treaty of Unkiar Skelessi would Ost
be recognised by this country as an European Tresll4ool
it would not be considered as part of the public 11"
Europe, and that this country should consider it icci./
liberty to act as if no such Treaty had ever exis ;e od
(Hear.) The same course had been pursued by th° tba
vernmeut of France. He did not know what courgil ba
I Government of Austria had pursued, but there ccill,glo
no doubt but that the Treaty of Unkiar Skelessi etaed
displeasing to that Government, whose great objeo
iF
the maintenance of the integrity of the Ottoman riles
It was not a safe condition for Russia ; the truce b Ups
the Sultan and Mehemet Ali remained for some tiev'
broken ; but still there were dangers, and it could 12°t 10,
' said that the peace of Europe was safe so long
state of things continued. Such was the 0%4
affairs, when Mahmoud died ; his successor was very Y. 501
' and not capable of exhibiting and assuming thepil!
vigour which the late Sultan had exhibited. The e>
es
was threatened with imminent dangers. The relation,"
tion of Mehemet Ali and the Turkish empire had b' 11M
clearly laid down, and the reason which had influeoe'teei!
conduct of the Government in the negotiations hetel#
Mehemet Ali and the Sultan had been so clearly atlel,lo
his Noble Friend's note of the 3lst of August, o'lleti
would refer the House to that note. Not only was bielo#o
met Ali in possession of Egypt and Syria, but he i
immense disposable army and a naval force far,e'e,
what he ought to have, or what the resources of h'i', ,o,ter
try could maintain. His army occupied a position thr`tbe('
ing Constantinople on one side, and Bagdad on ail' °tea
I He was trienacine the Sultan. He would not sta tedoci
the note of his Noble Friend what bad been the .ce, tit
pursued by Mehemet Ali, but he would appesie,`ostr!,
authority of a French Minister, one of the :11',1111'
of the 12th of May as it was called, which was 3i#01,/,
period in power in France, and was auPeo4,,
to be favourable to the cause of ,Mehemet
he would appeal to the authority of M. Passy''
statement of M. Patsy to the French Chamber oaf' ;It'
propositions had been made and had been reject.ed•
hernet Ali not only demanded that he should keep Pori
sion of all which lie had then acquired, but he clegeg„
the displacement of the Grand Vizier. He alio ae`',ol:
letters to the other Paellas of tine empire, urging tdg
declare their independence of the Sultan, 'while a,
same time he maintained a correspondence hr COO lato
nople itself. M. Passy said that there were other Mt
relating to Mehemet Ali, to which he would not Insithie
allude in his present humiliating position. Such °cite'
statement of the French Minister, trem which it aPPoer
that Mehemet Ali not only from his position was the,haiit)
ing the Sultan, not only excited all the (Abe: Pa,orre
rebellion, but that he maintained must dangerous „ire°
spondences in Constantinople itself, so as to aell-0011!"
power inn tho heart of the Government. But the Pe ear I
able Gentleman might say that that was 130,.,0d
cern of ours, that Mehemet Ali might be as
Sovereign as the Sultan.—("
Hear,
liam Molesworth.) The Hon. Member
from,Si .
vial
for Leedg 5e race
eace
to he of that opinion, but there was one little cireet° elte
which appeared to havo escaped his consideration enib
gether. The Emperor of Russia might take 0° 'lle
views of the nature of his treaties with the Sultan' ist'
Emperor of Austria might be of the same opinion'eetia!
Powers might say, we:are not going to abandon our
_t,rty,
. with the Sultan—it is our interest, as well as our tb°
maintain them, and Constentinople, occupied by °fa
troops of Russia or Austria, would become the areesit 0.1
conflict of which no man could foresee the event. della
impossible fur Great Britain to look on and he f°erlgelei
of all her declarations in favour of the integrity and I,- oto
pendence of the Ottoman empire,. or, if she could 00;
forgetful of her obligations, and so unmindful of heerouStl,
lest she should be involved in war, he "bail
he had proved, that so far front war
se
avoided, war would be a necessary consequent bad
pursuing that course of pacific policy achic,"
been recommended by the Hon. Member for P°,051
Neither England nor the other powers of Europe e 0;
omit taking part with regard to this question. Ibreloi
bassadors of the Great Powers declared at Constaelleil
that it was the wish of the Sovereigns whom they roett
rented that the Sultan should not conclude a 6e,i,st''
and abrupt arrangement with Mehemet Ali, liete`i, bric
' should wait the effect of the interest they took ill ve 1/
half. The Noble Lord then read a letter, dated th;lee!lf
September, 1839, from the Foreign Minister in krstgedl'i
the Governor of Austria, and which had been clu°
the late debate in the Chamber of Deputies, to 0°,,, 0
at that time the Government of France thought go
Government of England did ; that the first olaieetTeri°
considered was the general preservation of the est!°A
empire. About the same time that that commulbes.o4
was made by France to Austria, the present
.E
Ambassador, Baron de Brunow, arrived i.Ph ;05
country with propositions on the same subject, vaile osejeo
communicated to the French Ambassador, who e° eiblco
it to France, and an answer was made by Franceeecest4
had also been quoted in the discussions in the 'ereru,
Chamber. He must say the conduct of the Ern!) ate.;
Russia throuehout had been that of one most strilor tf
desirous to co-operate with the other Powers of .Eud ta(of
establishing peace in the Levant. The Noble leediagi,,
observed that if a war had justified them in demange
the House, and advising, the Sovereign, to incre,,eo,
army ant: navy to an enormous extol, they "`:,
hane hesitated in doing so. Ho sure eel with
Member for London, tit it e.aia a triafortnee reite
it t
be an estrangement with France, but the blared Loa
upon the Government of France in the conduct near')
at the time the Treaty- of July was commence.. corn
the
The Noble Lord then read several extracts from ceeelgof
respondence ofM. Guizot to the Minister of a`wercio
Affairs, showing the French Government w rels'
fe
the nature of the negotiations that were peno.ot,grreed
to Syria, and proceeded. His Noble Friend ((sr.
French Ambassador, on the 17th of Julys of
(„;(;cireili::.ili, and yet the I,3o:CrLii4.; ilo
said they were taken be surprise. He contraif
thought there was any justice in this compirareseii,
lamented the estrangement and irritation %chic
France, He believed France to be an enlightened,

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