The Sun.
London, England, 1841-09-28 00:00:00

EVENING SUN

to enter into the details of the new Poor-law, though he had
not in the least changed his opinion of their importance. With
reference to the instructions, he would not only say that he
went further than the Secretary of State for the Home De-
partment, for he believed that before the passing tithe Act, in
every well-regulated Union throughout England, the separa-
tion of the sexes was carried tint and insisted, on,—(ear,
hear.) He rose to express h.'.s regret that the House should
be troubled on that
'.cession with law whatever. It discussion on the Peer-
appeared to him that such a course on a Bill
which was mer-Ay
o renew, fora limited time, the Poor-law
her Majes
Commission., mts
an ungenerous return for the spirit in which
Government had brought it forward.—(Hear,
until
hear, eel oh, oh.) The Bill was to renew the Commission
ti, . next July, and it thereby held out a promise that, at that
tc, the whole of this great subject should be fully considered.
ft appeared to him that the manner in which the Ministry had
'framed the Bill, gave them an additional claim to the confi-
Totence of the country ; arid he believed that if any thing
'would shake confidence in them, it would be crude and, hasty
legislation on this great measure—(Hear, hear)—and not tak-
ing ample time to consider and reflect on those difficulties and
embarrassments their predecessors had bequeathed to them.—
(Hear, hear, and oh, oh.) Whatever unpopularity might at-
tach to it, he would not hesitate to express the favourable
opinions he entertained with regard to the result and
tendency of the Poor-law Amendment Act. (Hear,
hear.) He had always held the same language
on the hustings and elsewhere, and. lee would say further, with
regard to the Commissioners 1-ey whom it was carried out, that
without approving of e-iervihing they had done, yet, consi-
dering the circumstreees of peculiar difficulty in which they
were placed, the*/ had, on the whole, discharged their duties
most ably, and 'in a way which evinced the best and fairest in-
tentions.—(;{ear, hear.) He would say also that he thought
the last C.oiesrnment were entitled to the greatest praise for the
couraVe and skill with which they had grappled with this great
Sees'eOn.—(Cheers, and cries of " No," from the Opposition.)
H.e further believed that, so far as the great body of the coun-
'ary were concerned, they had carried it out without reference
-es party. He knew unworthy motives were attributed to
them, but they treated it with perfect scorn. Everybody
knew that with respect to rates, it was absolutely necessary
that some such measure should be adopted ; and, on the other
hand, he said that no friends of the New Poor-law Act would
say that its primary object related to Irates.—(Hear, hear.)
Its primary object was to create habits of industry, moral cha-
racter, and feelings of independence—( Hear, hear)—than
which no more important subjects could engage the atten-
tion of Parliament. It was for this reason he believed the
gentlemen of England had taken it up, and he wished he
could think that it would be in the same spirit discussed by
the House. There was no subject of more importance
affecting the interests of the people, no subject which they
should approach with greater freedom from party feelings and
party prejudices. He would appeal to those on both sides of
the House who should approach this subject to bear in mind
ins importance, and the duty of discussing it next Session,
svith an anxious desire to promote not only the temporal
welfare, but the permanent happiness of the people. For
himself, he had always endeavoured so to approach it, and
he had full confidence that the Ministry would give their best
attention to its details in the recess that would intervene.
He, for one, was most willing to consider any amendment
that should be proposed, or anything that would make it
more acceptable to the people ; but he would conclude by
hoping that her Majesty's Ministers, in their anxiety to make
it more acceptable, would not depart from its essential princi-
ples, which he believed to be good, and calculated to promote
the welfare of the people.--( Cheers. )
Mr. C. BULLER said he entirely concurred with the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Packington) in the sentiments contained in
the latter part of his speech, and he should waive any allu-
sions to the former part, except simply to beg him, when an-
other time he meant to comedown and speak so wisely and to
the purpose, he would not allow himself to deviate from his
subject into every possible irritating subject. He trusted that
the manner in which the Hon. Gentleman had addressed him-
self to the question would be followed, and that on a ques-
tion which concerned not a day or a year, not the existence
of any Ministry or party, but the permanent welfare of the
-people of England, they should discuss it with the same freedom
;from the lowest party feelings and the most miserable party
3seguments,—(llear, hear.) He (Mr. C. Buller) wished
merely to state, that he came down that night not very well
able to take part in the discussion, but because he felt it to be
his duty to support her Majesty's Ministers in the course which
they had taken on the subject.--( Hear, hear.) He had voted
for the New Poor-law Act when first brought in, and he had
voted for it ever since, and before his constituents and every
where else he had promised it his support, though, as the Hon.
Gentleman had said, he was willing to alter any details which
experience might prove to be harsh and unwise.—(Hear,
hear.) In spite of the obloquy that had been cast upon it, he
believed it to be an honest law—a wise law—the best law ever
made from the best motives in this country, for the moral and
social welfare of the working classes— (Hear, hear)--and
therefore he was anxious to say that he thought the course
taken by the Government was precisely the course which
In duty they were bound to take.—(llear, hear. )
It seemed to him that the question was one which should not
be discussed under the influence of party feeling or under the
pressure of temporary circumstances.—( Hear, hear.) If
there was distress prevailing at the present moment in the
country, he did not think that a permanent measure of that
kind should be altered under the pressure of a temporary evil.
He was therefore of opinion that the Government was
quite right in bringing in a measure simply continuing the
Poor-law Bill, which put off the discussion of the entire ques-
tion until Parliament should have more time for its considera-
tion. He would therefore put it to his Hon. Friend the
'Member for York, who he was sure would give him credit for
sincerity on the occasion, whether he could consistently call
not only upon Members who had generally supported the mea-
sure, but on those who had declared themselves against many
of its provisions, whether he could consistently call on them
to pass an opinion upon the single measure of the separation of
the sects. It appeared to him (Mr. Buller) that any Hon.
Member who would vote for the prosped alteration would
thereby affirm that the law in other suspects stood in no need
of amendment. It would be advisalle, in his opinion, to con-
sider the whole measure once and for good; and if they were to
commence at all to legislate on the subject, they had better, in
that ease, make up their minds to continue there from the
present moment up to the end of next year. He wished to
say one word before he sat down upon the remarks which had
fallen from the Hon. Member for Yorkshire. He did not
wish to undertake to defend the Hon. Gentlsenan's consistency
from day to day, hut he thought that the 'Hon. Member was
right in pursuing_ the course he proposed upon that occasion.
He should say, however, that the language of the Hon. Gen-
tleman that evening was much more moderate than that which
he had held in Yorkshire.—(Hear, hear.) He said to the
electors of the West Riding—" We shall have no bastiles, my
friends; from February, 1642, we shall have no separation of
roan and Wife ;" but the ardour of the Hon. Gentlemen had
considerably abated since. It appeared to him that the Hon.
Gentleman was quite right in the tone he assumed on the pre-
sent occasion, though he no longer said we shall have no
more of that infernal, abominab:e, diabolical law, and all
that sort of thing.—(llear, hear, and laughter.) He confessed
that ho did not expect that Gentlemen who had held that
language would vote for continuing for a moment the power
of " the Three
eir own infernal regions, but to the upper earth we lir
in. He (Mr. Buller) never wished to say anything offensive;
but it really seemed to him there had been a good deal of
howling resertesi to on the subject.—( Laughter.) It appeared
to him that, a good deal of very talked--vague nonsense had been
t:nat
talky
) a very great deal of dishonest stuff had been
'e ; and he did not think that Hon. Gentlemen had a
rig it to mislead people by false hopes, and to agitate them by
se eartions which were never meant to be carried into effect.—
( Hear, hear.) He certainly wished to put Hon. Gentlemen
opposite to the test—he wished them to state whether or not
they meant to continue a law which had been supported by
large majorities on both sides of the House, or whether they
would repead it when they took it into their consideration.
Colonel, 1;VOOD said, that when the time arrived he would
be ready lairly to consider the entire question. He did not
think the proposition, the motion of his Right Hon. Friend
opposite, was so unreasonable as had been represented, al-
!)-..ough he did not wish it should be pressed upon that occasion.
When the Poor-law Bill had first been passed, he certainly had
um notion that it would have been indiscriminately applied to
;all parts of the kingdom. It had been admitted that great
abuses existed in the administration of the old law in the
Southern Counties, but he believed those abuses were unknown
in the North of England. There was no payment of wages
out of the Poor-rate in the North ; there was no payment of
cottage rent from the same source. He hoped that his Hon.
fFriend would not press his proposition, although he con-
essed he approved of its principle.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
In the union to which he (Colonel Wood) belonged, they
had resolved, to
allowing old men and women to live
the hay'
toeether--(A laugh)—in spite of the instructions
h y ha':treceived from the Commissioners. He thought work-
/10'15'4 ought to be places of comfortable retirement for the
ap'el, that they ought to contain schools for the chit,' ren and
t.oat hat
they who took refuge in them slimes'
sr, comfortable as the aged. Hhoped not be quite
York would not press e the e.n. Member for
- his instruction, be.
'would go fairly into the discus.'
.dsion after f.ehristmas.
es that the House
Captain PECHELL h
wick would not consider had the Hon, 'Member for Droit-
If he asked the lism. Barotgi saes, taffer;-44. a factious opposition.
enter into some explanae.en t 'member for Dorchester, to pursued with regard te, the Gil
to the course intended to be
Gilbert Unions. He wished for
that information its .der 'tom
persons who had ame tha"n'atisfy a highly respectable class of
on the subject. tle wished once entrusted him with petitions
to prefect toes
Possessing Gil Localr Acts, and parishes incor-
porated int.° unions, under
eon be t's act, frem the operation of
the Bill If no eapt
were given, he should certainly
vote fen" the instruction moved by the Honourable Member for
Mr. H. HINDE had hitherto been opposed to the rinci le
be the Poor-law Amendment Act, and still continuedpopp_ sped support the motion of the Hon. Mem-
St.;o it, but he could not supp
her for York. The Bill_waseo
seoutieue the Commission for
six months only, and he theretoreldid
not think the session
time a proper one for offering oppwtion. He had last S
moved various amendments, and he would propose them again
next Session when the, law should be under discussion. He
was inclined 16 agrese with the Hon. Member for Bath that it
would be better so repose the power now vested in the Om..
missionere ir, the Secretary of State, but. he thought
that neither of them ought to possess such power, which
was, ire fact, the power of making laws. He opposed the
amen anent, because in
all cases in which the separation was
ins on a stigma woulda be attached to the parties, and no
Ball ought to have such
meted
stigma cast upon him without hay.-
ing been convicted of some offence. It would also Ise neces-
:eery totelax the rules relating to oat-door relief, and in fact
*. revise the whole machinery of the Poor-law Amendment
Act. For these reasons be should vote against the amend-
silent, not because he dissented from the principle of it, but be.

_
cause he believed it ill-timed.
c If nugn
ia
thee
_
Sir H. FLEETWOOD rose for the
topurpose of drawing
attention of the Right Hon. Baron et
tions which he (Sir H. Fleetwood) had certain m
received from Preston.
The first letter accompanied a petition,which
vented by his Honourable Colk,ague
land), and which was signed by 1,260
reevery one
persons, had been pre-
(Sir George Strick-
of whom was out of work. But he receivedanottheeir fears
another letter
thatthat day, in which the people of Preston expressed h
day,
out-door relief would be withheld
during the
coming winter. It was the wish of the House to receive in-
formatiou from the Boards of Guardians ; and as those Boards
were constituted of persons who had no pecuniary interest in
'the immediate administration of the law, he thought it would
be right that those individuals should be entrusted withits
execution, and that it ought to be taken away from the uncon-
tutional authority of the Commissioners.—( Hear.) What
would be the consequence if such a system was adopted with
regard to the constabulary ? Why, it would be tantamount to
a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act.—( Hear.) He trusted
they would come to the
was brought before consideration of the question when it
feeling.—((Hear.)) them, with their minds free from party
_
Mr. GRIMSDITCH, though opposed to the new Poor-
law, would vote for the
rary. He would not present Bill, as it was merely tempo-
desire its continuance for an length of
time, but if carried'Ont at all y
out the Central Beartt— it ought be to carried out with-
isted there never would , (Rear, hear.) As long as that ex-
bequiet or harmony in country.--
(Hear, hear.) The filember for Sheffield wasthe mistaken in
supposing the respectable portion of the community was favour-
able to the system of centralisation.
be treated as a party question.-- He hoped it would not
( H
law was doing injury to the soci ear, hear.) The presental system--drying up_ the
sources of private' charity—doing more mischief than the House
was aware of.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted the Ri!ht Hon.
Bum% woul4 nut rely On 11:1Y Bill eutfaating trorq '..p.erset 1