The Sun.
London, England, 1841-05-08 00:00:00

PRICE sd.

Mr. GOULBURN presented 27 petitions egainst
any alteration in the sugar duties, twenty-six of which were
from the Island cf Jamaica, and one from the Island of
Tobago. They were signed by all the proprietors on the
islands, and all prayed against any reduction in the duty
on foreign sugar. They stated that th ,y believed it
would be impossible to make any distinefon
between foreign sugar, the product of slave-labour, and
the product cf free labour—that such reduction would re-
duce the Llands from their present high eta cof cu:titt-
tioh—that by it slavery would be cocaur,ged, and iie4ot.a-
lions tor the suppression cf slavery with foreign sla‘c-hole.
rag States would be rendered more difficult ia consequence.
CORN-LAWS.

Lard JOHN RUSSELL said—ln answer to the
question of the Ilan. Gentleman, with respect to the
duties o I corn, which I mean to propo.e oc the House
going into Committee, I Log to s: y, that on wheat I pro-
pose to lay a duty of 84. per quarter, on rye rp., on

barley 4s. 61., and on oats 3s: 4tl.
Lord DARLINGTON said—l suppose that the
inhabitants of this country are no longer en'ilied
to any commercial protection ; however I am perfectly
ready to meet the Noble Lord upon the statement he has
made. It is Lot for me to say whether the Noble Lord
has taken this course at his own suggestion, or wleaer on
the other band he may have adopted the advice of a very
sage counsellor, who is known in cases of emergency,
by a significant toss of his shoulder, to give strange

advice—(Cries of " Name")—or whether this course
is the c ,rnequcnee of the return to this House of an
Hon. Gentleman who hai distinguished himself in the
cause of humanity, and ;shorn the electors of Nottingham
have gained so much credit for themselves by elec -
ing.—( Cries of " Oh, oh.") Whether from oce
or the other of these causes, or from all of them in
con-
junction this course resulted he cared not, but this he ven-
tured to prophesy, that the Noble,Lord would not by any
tr'ck of that sort affect the landed interest of the cout.tr).
—(Cri2i of" Oh, oh," and ironical cheers from the M -
nister:al benches, answered by counter cheers from the
Opposition.)
WAYS AND MEANS.

The Order of the Day on going into Ceramittee ca
Ways and Means having been read,
Lord J. RUSSELL rose and said—Sir, in movirg that
you do now leave the Chair, I think it incumbept on me,
owing to the notice given by the Noble Lord—owing to
the discussions that have taken place out of doors—
owing to the attitude that has been assumed by various
parties, both political and commercial, with respect to the
question, t i state to the House the general reasons that have
influenced the-Government in the adoption of the course
they have recommended.—(Hear.) Sir, I agree with the
petition presented a little while ago from cer.
lain inhabitants of Bath, that this i 3 a question not
to be looked at merely in a commercial and
financial view, because if it were of that nature, I should
willingly leave it in the hands of my Right Honourable
Friend near me, by whom it would be treated
with far more knowledge of the subject, and
f.r more perspicuity in stating the views of the Go-
vernment; but I consider it as a great national question.—
( Hear, and loud cheers.) And there never, perhaps, has
been submitted to Parliament a question which will be
more important, not merely to the finances of the realm,
net merely to the commercial regulations of the present
time, but for the conduct cf the finances of this country,
and for the regulation of the commercial affairs of this
country for a long time to ccme, than that which
I am now about to propose. ( Hear, hoar,
and cheers.) Sir, I cannot, however, commence
my observations on this subject, without adverting to
that which I know has been said, and which no-
thing but the mast inveterate hostility to the
present Government, and an entire ignorance of
the characters of the members of that Government—
(Cries of " Hear, hear," from the Opposition benches,
followed by loud cheering from the Ministerial side)—l can-
not commence my observations without adverting to the
assertion which has been made that this question was taken
up at the spur of the moment on the day before my Right
Hon. Friend brought forward his proposal.—( Hear, hear. )
Sir, I say that a long habit of hostility to the
Geer rnment, and a total ignorance of the character of
my Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer
and the other members of the Government, may form some
palliation of such assertion, but the assertion was one
which should never have been cast upon them.--(Cheers.)
'1 be Government knew full well this was a subject of the
deepest interese They ecre fully aware from the com-
mencement of the present year, that the slate of
the finances would require some course to be
adopted which in other views would be consistent with the
character of the country, and the future stability of our
tra 'iiig and commercial interest?. Sir, this question
naturally occupied much of our time and long
deliberation—this diffieultie the objections, such as
bad wren stated to-night in many of the petitions, were
carefully and fully weig'aed; thoy made a great impres:i
on tome mernters of the Government and on myself ;
but after a certain length of time it was thought
necessary to c me t r a decision, and the general decision
was taken upon grounds, which I shall afterwards state to
the House tl at these three greet questions of cern, sugar,
and timber shouldbe unc:e take a, fur the sake of the re:eaue,
by the Chanceller cf the Excbequsr, and that I should
give notice to tee House that, as a question af-
fecting the protection to the lanced int. rests—
affecting the general welfare of the country—th it I should
bring forward a proposal of the alteration of the Corn-laws.
Sir, that resolution was taken before my Right Hon.
Friend the President of the I3oard of Trade gave notice
of his resolution with respect to colonial duties—( Loud
cheers)—and that notice. I observe from the Votes, was
given on the 11th of March.—(Cheers.) Sir, I thought
it not right, certainly, that the question should be
brought forward before we knew at the•end of the financial
year, the clear return cf revenue as compared to the ex-
penses; but I thought it right to state, when those le-
solutions were under discussion, which I did o.npliati-
cally—( Loud cheers)—that all these queetious relating to
monopoly and restriction had been under the serious con-
:ida ration of the Government, and that the Government
were united on them, mad that the measure would be
brought forward when necessary.—(Cheers.) I may state
that on the very day the Budget was brought forward by
my Right lion. Friend, I received a letter speaking of
the Budget as a matter that was settled by ,the
information I then conveyed, and that not front
a gentleman residing 50 or 60 miles off, but from the
Noble Lord the Governor-General of Canada.—( Cheers.)
I hope, Sir, it will no longer be attempted to be palmed
upon the country that this resolution was a sudden one—
one taken up oa the spur of the moment, or for party
purposes.—( Loud cbe,r3.) Let we state further, Su-,
that in making that decision to which the Government
came, we were not ignorant of the vast interests, aided
by a vast portion of the community, that would be brought
against us—we have to-day seen with how much tender-
ness those who import timber from Canada view the in-
terests of the negro—(Cheers and laughter)—with what
horror the landed gentlemen who oppose the introduc-
of' foreign corn at a fixed duty, which I do not conceive
any absence of protection—(Cheers)—with what horror
they look upon the sufferings of men forced from their
homes to become slaves in a foreign land. I
know, Sir, with what disadvantage I stand
here, having to represent no large body of
mon connected with commercial interests not speak-
ing the sense of any merchants c:mbined and
associated, and having subscriptions, and ad.
vertisetnente, and meetings, regularly partial, when
I am speaking in behalf of no other body, than that
which is often a very helpless body, on this oc-
casion— the great mass of ber Majesty's subjects.
.—( Loud cheers from tl o Ministerial benches)—whose
interests, whose well-being, whose for tunes, are
deeply involved in this great question. —(Cries ef
-1 Hear, hear.") Sir, in adverting to ell these subjects I
must cot, I cannot, allow the House to separate from
its consideration the position in which the Government
was placed in regard to its finances. There Lave been many
questions of great inierest relating to foreign affairs, to
our colonial interests, to the state of the country at borne,
which called for and required an increase of expenditure. It
had become necessary in the opinion cf the Government to
arrive at some safe settlement of a question which had long
menaced the independence of the Ottoman Porte. It had
become essential to the honour of the British name to ask

for the redress of injuries inflicted upon British subji:ctein
the dominions of the Emperor of Chili*. It was Le:e..-
Rau to suppress an insu►rection which had broken our. in
Canada, the result cf legislative arrangement; half a cntury
ago. At onetime our domestic rranquillitywas threatened, and
when we resolved to mett .such dangers without recur-
ranee to laws of extraordinary coercion, it was necessary to
have a sufficient force in her Majesty's army to
preserve the tranquillity of the country. Wi:h respt et t
all these measures I know not that this House has differed
in opivion from the Government. Wit's respect to each
it may be that sense Meinbcrs of the Howie dirapproved
of the course pursued, but with respeat to all of them they
were supported by a great majority 'of the !louse of Com-
mons. Of course if these efforts were to bo made you
are to consider the success which has Lttendei titer,

and the means of providing f,,r the incurred cost. Wi h
respect to the success of the measure adopted with regard
to Eastern affair!, I think that the means calployed have
been attended with most speedy and sail Let icy results.—
( Hear, hear.) With teapect to Canada, the ilsurrection
which had raised its head was proml.tly put down, and we
have every reason to hope that the inhabitants oft c
lolly will continue firmly loyal to the British Crown.—
( ) With rcrpect to our don.e3tic allire, tranquil
was establisl.cl w.tnout p.ei:ig beyond the r.fi •
nary laws of the countr:..—(l-ita-, hear, and ol.eNs )
wit: respect to China, I must admit, that cur r:-
lations are still is an unset.led sttate. But so far as
tho exhibition of our naval end military force wig
concerncd, it has been attended with the usual success
and triumph of the Br.tish arms.—(Loud (dicers.) Sir, we
nab,: came necessarily to consider, ..h,tv we ale to pro-
vide fir the cost of these starts—(Hear, bea.r)—and to
.
i.rcyidu the means by which that east is to be met. Ac.
cording to the statement of my Right lion. F lend, tic
Chancellor of the Ezell:quer, there is a deficiency of
2,400,000/. in the revenue of the list year, as compar;cl
with the expeaditute.—(hear, hear.) Sir, I can vary
well understand that the opposition, cf wha..cyer Menocers
it might be composed, whether of gentlemen now sitting!
on this side, or upon the other—(Cheers)—might say tinal
the plan of the Chancjlor of the Exchequer wa; n
taken—(llea:)—and that the scheme was Wrung in priiin"..
cipe.—( Heir, hear.) But that they should rkaru-se
any opinior, when the Budget was brought.f r giveand
maattea of
should now, when it is proposed to go into a Co war'
the whole Houle, ro,Tely attempt to give al legative to the
proposition of the G.vzrnment, without t •
attutating what

-6
-;"-
EVENING EDITIONa
they would themselves adopt--(lronical cheers from the
Toria)—that course, much as the Right lion. Gent a-
nte' (Sir R. Peel, we believe,) may deride, is. not what
becomes tiny greet party--( Lond cheers)—arid is
I certa•nly more factious than arrytiing I ewer heard of.—
Sir, I am not siyirg that the (Deposition ought to state
the measures which, it, their opinion, would he the lee to
be adopted, to restyle the finances—(Cheers)—and that
they should indicate the taxes to be pt.t on, or the sources
from which the revenue was to he derivo.—(Cheers.)
But, Sir, this is a question of opposite principles.—( Hear,
hear.) his a question whether we cannot raise the funds
required by some small and petty mode of taxation, or by
a general improvement of the trade of the country.—
(Cheers.) It is true, Sir, that there is another mode of
maintaining the finances—by raising a loan for the present
year; but, Sir, considering that it might be expedient to
continue the army and navy on their present footing, vie
did not think it becoming to have recourse to a loan.—
(Cheers.) But if Hon. Gentlemen opposite think that
the raising of a loon was the course which ought to be
taken, I hope they will not hesitate to dt Clare their opinion.
Now that was a course which would not have betel ere-
dit dole to any Government. But when we e true to con-
sider that question we bad to oppose to it a further alter-
native, nanielt , whether it ea; riot possible by diminishing
excessive protection—( Hear, hear)—by giving to the
people cf this country additional means of purchasing, not
the luxuries, but the comforts and the necessaries of life—.
(Hear, hear)—to obtain a reteaue which would meet the
deficiency which had taken plane. We came to the opi-
nion that that might he. done. For the moment that we
had deliberately formed this opinion it would have been
wrong for us to have proposed to the House a direct tax,
either on the property or assessed tastr, hying upon the
people of this country large additional burtheas when
there were means obvious to our eyes by which those ad-
ditional burtheus might be spared, and the people at large
be not oppressed but relieved. This, therefore, was the
opinion to which we came, :a course which .was more
likely to lead the Government into difficulties than perhaps
either of the three courses width I have named, having
to meet such vast interests—having to meet the additional
feeling which the Noble Lord ties embodied iu the re-
solution which be means to propose. But we could
shrink from then difficulties—( Hear, bear)—we could
not, when my Right Hon. Friend had shown by his calcu-
lations that from sugar acid from timber, by means per-
fectly just and legitimate in themselves, which had been
often acknowledged and asserted to be so--a large revenao
might be obtained—we could not refuse to propose such a
measure to the House. I now put this question to the
House, whether, being prepared to consider auger and tim-
ber with a view to revenue, we should have been justified
in saying "yes, we propose these questions as ques-
tions of revenue, but there is another great in-
terest where we think the protection given
is a serious grievaneo to the people of this country—a
protection which is not for the advantage of the great
landed interest itself, who appear to hate so thought—
a protection which might be changed and rectlifiel for
the benefit of the country, net only as a gre t ariaeuhß-
turing and commercial country in its rite ry with other
nations, but also ultimately for the benefit of the land-
owners and the growers of corn in this country"—l say, if
having this opinion we had stated, that we were prepared
to touch two of these great interests, but that we abrunk
from touching the third—( Hear, hear)-1 say, could we
have met the House of Commons, I will not say with the
same chance of support, but could tee ha.,e mat it with the
same confidence that we are proposing good and right
measures, and measures which, one day or other--( Loud
cheers from the Ministerial benches)—Rill he a new
foundation for the continued prosperity of this country ?
Sir, we could not have met this House with the same con-
fidence, if while we had proposed two of these changes we
had become alarmed, and in consequence been deterred
from bringing forward the third.—(Cheers.) Sir, I will
say but a very few words respecting those other two mea-
sures, which are not at present so immediately before the
House. With respect to the timber duties, I may state
that in a correspondence with my Nob'e Friend the pre-
sent Gevernor-General of Canada, I had stated to him
what were the views and intentions et the Government on
this subject. He, as was very naturally to have been ex-
pected, replied that the adoption of such a course would
place him under increased difficulties—( Loud cries of
" Hear, hear" from tile Oppoailian)—but that there was
a measure which had been fiegeently in discussion between
us before the .departure of my Noble Friend for Canada,
and to which I will not now further allude, by which,
without burdening the country, great relief might be given
and great improvements made to property in Canada ; and
if he were able to hold out the hope that such a measure
would take place, he thought that, on the whole, Canada
would be a gaieer.—( Hear, hear.) Sir, with regard to
the other question—the question of corn—l have stated
the duty I mean to propose, which is not, as the Noble
Lord proposes, an entire absence of all protection to the
landed interest. It is, on the contrary, such a protection
as with the prices of corn in foreign countries, the cx.
pease of bringing corn to this country, end prepatiug it
for the market, would, I thirds, keep up a steady price of
50:. or 60 a quarter ; and, at the same time not ex-
pose the country to those ruinous fluctuations—( Cheers)_
by which at one time corn is subject to a prohibitory duty,
anti at another, by a skilful and artificial arrangement of
of the averages an importation of foreign corn takes piece
at a nominal duty only.—( Cheers.) I now come, Sir, to the
consideration of the qtiesti in cn which my It'ght Hole
Friend intends to bring fore aril Lis Meii in else Committee
of Wats and Means, and the fiat thiag I think it necessary
to state wttli regard to the present duty on foreign sugar
is the principle vie wish to see adopted. The
principle, Se, we wish to see adopted is the removal of
prohibition (Cheers) and the imposition of fair
arid honest (tat e=.—(Loud and continued cheering )
The probildion is injurious to tee petite of this country,
aid the production or the ertiele itself is never so good as
in aseto of competition. Now, what is the duty on
foreign sugar at present? It is 633. per cwt. which, ex.
cept in some very rare instance; during a short time ha
the eerese of last year, corni.letely excludes foreign sugar
from tnis market ; so much was tit the case, that wbea at
certain periods, ass, the a ear 1815. it was thought proper
to admit foreign sugar into the marker, a special Act of
Perliarnent war pase d for this purpose. 1 am not now
inquiring whether there onght or ought riot to he a pro-
hibition of nil foreign sugar,. lam not now saying that;
but the proposition which I mak-, and to which this prin-
ciple applies, is one which is :upperted by what was stated
this evenirg in the various petitions which sere presented
to the House. It is that proposal vt Lich was made by my
Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor e f the Exchequer that
Ureic timid be such a protection as wocid enable growers
of coloMal sager to sell their sugar in a fair compethion.
If you add to the 22.. which you may take as the price of
the foreige sugar in bowl, the duty of 37s , it will raise
the price to 591.--51 s. is the fair price at which the peti-
tioners to this House state that they aie able to sell West
India sugar. Now if ti,ey arc ogle to introduce sugar at
515., what necessity is there to introduce foreign sugar,
which will be only sold at the same prier, cr at a higher
price? It may be asked, might we not as well avoid so
doing ? The a isyser to the question is, if sugar should
rise, as it has hitherto done, to 68g. per ext. the public
would hate uo remedy against the high price ; they would
not be able to counteract the high price by any competition,
and thus a great grievance would be iafficted on the peep's..
Now, Sir, with regard to the general principle of cone-
petition. I think it' I were to point to instaucee, there are
so many with regard to the benefits acciutng therefrom
that I should weary the House by stating them.—( Hear,
hear.) But I know no reasons why thew instateet should
not apply, and I will mention two. In the eximmercial
treaty of 1786 the earthenware cf England was admitted
into France, and a gentleman who travetled there shortly
afterwards stated that' since the introduction of that
eirthenware the French manufacture had been greatly
improved, and they were able to produce something like
the English ware.—( Hear, bear.) Another instance was
given by Mr. Hume in his ethic:tee before the Committee
on Import Duties. Fur some years after French cloth
was admitted into this country tho English manufacturers
imitated it, and sold it as French cloth, and it succeeded
very well, being a better and cheaper cloth than they had
ever sold before ; and such was the consequence of com-
petition.—( Hear, hear.) The same thing happened with
regard to a measure proposed by Mr. Eluskisson, who ad.
mitted silks and gloves into this country at a reduced duty.
On that occasion it was stated that the manufacturers
would be ruined, our English silks and gloves being se
much inferior, whrreas the cousequerice was an itayrov. e.
mont of these manufactures, and an extension of _
although it was said that dui would be rui.sh havAee l
what cas the case with regard to sugar? wc
in statements which have been made to me
They
—veld some of which I shall read to the( Eleousse
..hon
repeatedly
were furnished in proof of the Oka of.
cultivation slavery, in the improved methods of cultiLitingleonauliwleir;
employed. So long as slavery existed,
than, than the
worse or more careless., or more barbarthh
mode of cultivation ; in fact produce
but since the abolition of alavery
Jwceultivation. have
lion of various methods cf imprler.awn
up
sonic time ago,
it was a complete monopoly;
here a memorandum which
nda ry Magistrate
tens drawn
and gone point
with regard to the effaces uf
refers to coffee.for clearing
cf Manchester, refers to a machine,
great saving of ma-
coffee, shich would cent
He
the
Mr. Grants,
cork much better,
nual labour and perform
contend with strong
states that he badt° in introducing the
machine
p ej u -
dice, ridicule, and apathy,cforts are making by .;
_ Nest India
and it is clear that efforts
other point., :ni Icontend
planters upon thitis and
~ that
t.i •
that anmi t g the posattiltty that sugar and
competition—
her countries mate h • A • e Introduce. into
coffee grotvn in
this country, will induce them to exercise their industry
in that vet
aad stimulate tartmy which Englishmen have
s shown themselves tine first to originate in all mat-
tersalway
f a practical nature. 1 Len with respect to the pro.
prictors, I think re say that in the first place you .have it
-stated to the House that the price he wishes to obtai-i Is
about the Wile price et which at the lowest this foreign
sugar can be introduced into England ; if that amount of
duty net sufficient, thst is a question for a Corrnitt, e
of ais House. What I want to sec is the principle thr
it shall he possible that the price- in the Evigli
market shall nut be an excesaite price. Such,
then, will be the condition of the West India
planter, Ile will not Lye to come into competition such
as Lis friends dread, but merely into competition such as
they admitted themselves at one time would leave them
stilt n asters of the market. Now, Sir, I came to another
part of the question, one upon which I think the House
ought to lay the graatest stress—to which we mutt all
attach the greatest interest, and upon which I wish to
make some stater:l:rite I Weill with regard to the effects
of ernanei• mina.—(Cheers.) I think, Sir, that having
t i ciscuss'a question upon which there is so much oppoei.
Lion, the Howe, with me, will le happy to dwell for a
!nor:lett upon some atatements which I thick must be gra.
tillting to all pastes, that whatever other effects may have
bean produced, the great act el emancipation, which this
county so nobly cai fed iLto effect, at the treat tacrifice
of twenty millions, has been upon the whole the mate Sue-
Centel vxpoitnent, that has Leer taken place affecting the
inteiests of 50,000 people. It is impossible to read nitb.
out the liveliest gratificetioe the ate c in which the
tegro labourers are, the man tea in which s many of them
are reeuiring al the e enforts of live Rua 'Reaming pro.
lei 'tors of small p:rtiens of lard.—(Cite rs.) Perhaps