The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-23 00:00:00

ensure what they might discover to be wrong. - It was
in this spirit that he should direct his attention to the
matter under discussion ; and on the threshold of this
subject the abstract question presented itself, as to
whether it was, or was not, the duty of the State to in-
terfere with the education of the people. He could not
hesitate, in discussing this abstract question, at coming to
the conclusion that it was not only one among the highest
duties of the State, but among the noblest, if not indeed
the most noble, functions of the Government, to do
everything to extend and diffuse knowleds,e, to elevate
the moral, and cultivate the religious feeling of the
people committed to its care, and looking at this as a
Christian assembly, he could not hesitate to state that
the noblest and purest system of education for tho
people was that system of morals which bad received
the Divine sanction, and which held out to mankind on
the one hand a future state of eternal reward, or on the
other a state of eternal punishment. But this view of
the subject would lead him into considerations which at
present he did not intend to enter upon. To pass them
fi otn that subject, and to turn from the abstract to the
practical question, if it were to be admitted for the pur-
poses of the debate, that in the abstract it was
the duty of the State to promote the education of
the people, the real question as a practical
one would be, how could that duty be best performed?
Now, as was the case with all matters of poliey, the
practical question must be considered in reference to the
varied circumstances in the different parts of the United
Kingdom. The question had been transferred to Scot-
land by the most able and eloquent Gentleman vi ho re-
presented the metropolis of that country, and in refer-
ence to Scotland, it should be remembered that at an
earl) period of its history the happy circumstances oc-
curred of the one religion being embraced by the entire
people, and the education of the country was delegated
to the Church. There was here no difficulty, ss, when
the Presbyterian religion was first introduced in the reign
of James 1., and again in the reign of William 111., edu-
cation was altogether confided to the national
Church, formed part of its social and prac-
tical system, and received the sanction of the
Scottish Parliament first, and afterwards of the Parlia-
ment of the United Kingdom. The education of the
people progressed in strict alliance with the Church as
by law established until the late disruption, which he
to that day deplored. Religious feelings and secular edu-
cation went hand in hand, and very many circumstances
combined to elevate the people of that portion of the
island in history, and enabled the country, notwith-
standing its natural disadvantages and its poverty, to
rise to a level with the highest and most civilised nations
in the world.—(Rear, hear.) In Ireland, again, the
circumstances were exactly different. There the reli-
gion of the State was the religion of a small minority ;
dissent from that religion was the distinguishing fea-
ture of the great majority in that country.
Their religion was not recognised by the State,
bat Parliament had granted, year by year, considerable
sums of private money, not in alliance with the Church,
indeed, but still by this system Dissenters were admitted
to partake of benefits in which Churchmen also parti-
cipated. It was, therefore, consistent both with the
practice and policy of the case that the views of the Go-
vernment should vary with the varied circumstances of
the United Kingdom. And now let them turn to Eng-
land. Here from an early period, unhappily to the latest
period, to that very hour, the greatest differences had
arisen on the subject of religion, and every class of the
community had been bitterly divided on the subject of
their religious faith. In that difference of opinion on
religious matters had consisted the real difficulty
of legislating on the subject of education. The
State had encountered violent and uncalled-for
interference both from the members of the Church and
the supporters of different religious persuasions. Now he
felt bound to say that in his own person he had some
experience with reference to the attempts of Ministers
of the Crown to interfere on this subject,—(Hear, hear,
and laughter,)--and he had never been enabled to do as
much for education as his zeal would have led him to do.
But he bad done this at all events; ho had navigated the
channel, he had sounded all the depths, and he had
marked the rocks and the shoals which were to be
avoided by future Governments.—(Hear, hear.) If be
had done no more, he had at least done this ; he had
shown the Government that succeeded, that which they
ought to avoid if they wished to bring forward a measure
calculated to extend the education of the people. Ho
thought then, that it was indispensably necessary that
the course which had been hitherto pursued
should not be persevered in, namely, that an
annual vote should be taken, and that from time
to time rules and regulations should be determined
upon in the deliberations of that House. Now, he did
not think it altogether superfluous to point out how
occasional assistance ought to be administered with
caution, by the State for the education of the people.
Under the Government of Lord Grey, a small sum was
asked for the aid of building school-houses. That
small sum was, he believed, 20,0004 or 30,0004 to be
disposed of under the inspection of the Government;
but by other, and after regulations, the distribution of
that sum was placed at the disposal of the Committee
of Privy Council. Of course, under the circumstances,
to which he had adverted, the difference of opinion in
matters of religion rendered it exeeedingly difficult to
give any aid for the purposes of religious and secular
education; and, therefore, it was limited to the mere
external fabric of the schools. Grants were subse •
quently made to two institutions, the one the National
Society, immediately connected with the Established
Church, and the other, the British and Foreign Society,
which had the confidence of a large portion of the Dis-
senting bodies. Until a recent period, in the year 1839,
no assistance was given, except for the single pur-
pose of building schools, and a further restriction
was observed that the schools to be built must he con-
nected with one or other of those societies. The first
relaxation of that rule took place when Lord Melbourne
was at the head of the Government, but the order of
Council of 1839 still maintained, as an indispensable con-
dition that these schools should be conne2ted with one
or other, of these two -societies. The rule was also
maintained that the assistance of Government should
only be given for the building of the fabric, except in
special cases; these special cases were to be connected
with one or other of these two societies. lie was not
aware that the Government of Lord Melbourn, ever en-
tertained any more than two or three of these special
cases, and they took care that in these cases the
requirements should be rigorously executed. He
thought that the first time assistance was given,
to the amount of 50001., for 1842, to two normal
schools in connexion with the two societies,
In the year 1843 an annual vote of 1,0001. per annum to
the National School, and 7501. to the British and Fo-
reign Schools, was substituted in lieu of occasional
grants, and annual contributions were also given in aid
of the Normal Schools of Scotland. After this depar-
ture from the original rules, applications were pressed
upon the Committee for annual contributions in aid of
maintenance of the members connected with those
Schools. When these cases were to be considered, he
felt it his duty to state t 3 the House, that these cases
would be sure to be interrupted, and they would be in-
volved in such a discussion as they were now engaged
in ; and they would find it necessary altogether to
desist from allowing these grants. If it could be
shown that the means of education were deficient,
and that Parliament determined to give grants to one
denomination, then he showed that on the same prin-
ciple they were bound to extend that provision to all
persuasions.—(Hear, hear.) A time had now, however,
come when they felt it necessary that some assistance
should be afforded to the Dissenting bodies in the cause
of education, and he was greatly rejoiced that they
should, at last, be allowed to receive that assistance
which they so well merited by their exertions. But he
was bound to say that if they admitted the principle,
that assistance should be given to the Dissenting body,
the Roman Catholics should also be alloy' ed to parti-
cipate in the benefit. The only ground of
exclusion which was alleged, was, that they
did not use the authorised version of the
Scriptures ; but what was the authorised version of the
Roman Catholics ? It was the bible from which Bossett
and Fenelon drew the texts from which they preache3,
and from which Pascal drew his immoral thoughts.
Would it be told them that this version was to be the
sole barrier against the admission of Roman Catholics
to the benefits which the State had provided ? Surely
Protestant zeal would not go so far as that. The Hon.
Member for Southwark had referred to Mr. Landell,
he (Sir I. Graham) had long had the honour
of an intimate acquaintance with that gentle-
man, and he assured the House that his
every word might be depended on implicitly.
He was of opinion that an effort should be made by
the Government in order to ascertain whether terms could
not be agreed on by which the Roman Catholics might
be enabled to come in for some share of the benefits of
Government assistance.—(Hear, hear.) He was bound
to say that he could see something like expediency in
not doing so on the present occasion, but he did not see
any justice in doing so. (Cheers.) The preseiA
vote was not a vote of 100,000/. only, it was in addition
to the sum authorised to be expended under the new
minutes. By this vote, which might cause an outlay—
which he for one did not grudge—of not less than
1,000,000/.—some persons had set it down at 2,000,000/.
—now, lout of all this sum the Catholics would
not receive one shilling, and the whole subject
was to be put off to an indefinite period, when the con-
sideration of the question would be brought forward by
itself, and, he must say, invidiously.—(Cheers.) He
thought that the proper time to do justice to his Roman
Catholic fellow subjects was the present moment.
He should not vote on the present occasion with the
Hon. Member for Finsbury, because he thought that tha
course taken by Government was justifiable and prueent
outto
hwai
vt he thisall ows iendg
tl eh e
R exception,om a n cha
tohweeliveear
vote.—(Hear, hear.) He thought it was infinitely better
to proceed by order in Council in the present state i f
top th aatr ttihjpyate ginh the
feeling in this country, than to attempt by Act of Parlia-
ment to establish any uniform system which would not
be in accordance with the general wishes of the Tropic.
The good, however, that might arise from the course pur-
sued by the Government, he would net purchase at the
expense of what he thought was due to his Roman Ca-
tholic fellow subjects.—( i tear, hear.) He must, there-
foreent repeat that he entirely approved of the Government
measure, with the single exception he had named, and
he really thought it would be averse to all religious li-
berty and religious toleration it' his Roman Catholic fel-
low subjects were to be, excluded from participating in
this plan.
J
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Sir, I own after three
nights' debate, I rise
apprehension I very
considerably relieved of any
might
have entertained with respect to
the course the discussion might have taken. The great
objection stated to the front of this measure
was, that the State ought not to interfere with
the education of the people, and the various
petitions presented to this House on the subject, or at
least the greater part of them were declared to be against
that principle, while the 500 delegates assembled from
various parts of the country declared that experience
has convinced them that a rule ought to be laid down
that the state should not interfere with the education of