The Sun.
London, England, 1824-06-18 00:00:00

CATHOLIC ASSOCIATION.

Sir F. BURDETT presented a petition from several Gen-
tlemen, belonging to the Catholic . Association of Dublin, com-
plaining that they had been grossly misrepresented, not as they
would say in that House, but through • those channels which
very accurately stated what had passed in that Houk,—
They stated
.that no portion of the people of this country had
exhibited a warmer sentiment of loyalty than the Catholics of
Ireland, and they complained that they had been unjustly
charged with disloyalty by those who churned a monopoly of
power and profit as well as of loyalty. They alluded to the
Orange Association, composed of men who were bound-. by
secret ties, and one of whose Champions defied the House at
its very bar. The petitioners complained that such meri'had
the face to complain of those who proceeded for a legitimate
purpose, in the open face of day, by legal and constitutional
means. It was not fit, nor was it his intention, to go into that
very important question relative to the state of Ireland.; as
would be brought under the notice of the House at a score
convenient period. He should therefore at present merely
move that the Petition be brought up.—lt was accordingly
read, ordered to lie on the table, and, after a few words from
Mr. GRAT TAN, ordered to be printed. •.
SCOTCH BURGHS. •
Lord A. HAMILTON moved for several Returns relative
to the Scotch Burghs.—Ordered.
Mr. J. SMITH presented a Petition from an individual,
complaining that he had been deprived of a legal office in•jre-
land, and praying for redress.—Ordered to lie on the table, after
a few words from'Mr. C. II u ICIIINSON.
• SCOTCH JUDICATUIIE. .
'The LORD ADVOCATE presented a Petition fiont the
Faculty of Advocates, against the Scotch Judicature Bill. •
Mr. A BERCROM,BY said the Petition was not unanimously
agreed to. Many eminent persons at the Scottish bar dissented
from it. '

The LORD ADVOCATE said the majority was 90 against
37 of the Advocates,
After a few words from Mr. ABERCROMBY, Lord .131N-
xraro,
table.and. Sir C. Fcarin s; the Petition was ordered to lie on
the
Sir GuoRGE CI,ERN. presented a similar Petition Nni
Edinburgh.' The Petitioners
did not complain of the provi..
sions of the fill ; they only prayed that a Bill which would
affect them, and which they had not seen, would not be passed
until. they should have had an opportunity of seeing and ex
arnining it. .
• •
Mr. HUME said, the prayer of the petitioners was perfectly
reasonable ; but as many Members approved of the Bill, and
tehet Houseoadt
il)o ru erssnhe
noa
int. should
Try: ohter
particulars sit twa s ;1.
In, daey.
absolutes
longer
et bs
sair was
contemplated at present Tberewas . absolute necessity for
thought it important that it should pass this Session, he did not
from Mr.e
presented .by air. W. DUNDA:§..— •
seetheT ‘Hhvcontemplated 3';
ti
, after a.fe**Oids
tifitivonmwtasaonrdd e3rierd. tsoeclireetaonrythpeEtzabtl.e
Ordered to lie on the table.
Mr.,LENNARD preaenteda Petition from the Catholics of . . ~ .
Similar petitions were
Monaghan, praying for Emanripation.--Ordered to lie on the
table, after a few words from Mr. S. RICE....

DERRY CATHEDRAL.II.Ir. tiOULBURN presented a Petition from the Dean and
Chapter of Deny, justifying
their conduct respecting the re-

of t Cathearal.—Ordered to lie on the table, after a few
-words from Mr. DAWSON.
IMPRESSMENT.

-.-
Mr. HUME begged to correct a mistake which had gone
abroad respecting wont he had said of a Captain Jervis, of the
Dispatch sloop, on the late debate respecting Impressment.
He had not intended to accuse Capt. Jervis of depriving the
men of food as had been represented. The Hon. Member then
presented a Petition from a Mr. Perrott, who had on a former
occasion petitioned the House for redress of the injury he had
suffered from a conviction for obtaining money under false
pretences. Ile had been a Lieutenant of the Navy, and was
discharged in consequence of the conviction which he again de-
clared to be unjust and founded upon falsehood.
Mr. CROKER said, the charge in question was made
against this Officer for forgetting his high character, and
swindling some poor people out of money, under pretence of
kis official situation. A dearer case of base and detestable
fraud had never been made out. One of the documents re-
lating to the fraud (a forged certificate), had been found upon
'him. He (Mr. Croker) must really object to arguing the case'
again.
Bir G. COCKBURN spoke a few words confirmatory of the
jmnice of the sentence.
Mr. HUME said, lie did not blame the Admiralty. He
only thought it hard that this gallant man should be left to
starve.
The Petition was then ordered to be printed.
A Message from the Lords here announced their Lordships'
assent to several Bills.
SCOTCH JUDICATURE BILL.

Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that in. rising to move the second
reading of the Scotch Judicature Bill, he thought it but due to
the 'lease to state that he had no idea of its passing into a law
in the present Session. It was right that he should add that
this course was pursued not because there was any individual
objection to the Bill. Every deference was placed in the cha-
✓acter, abilities, and learning of the Gentlemen who composed
the Committee whence the Bill emanated. He placed every
▪ liance ite their judgment ; but he also formed a favourable
u?-ihicn of tlsemeaseire upok his own opinion. his only rea-
son, therefcre' for wishing It to be postponed, was a comd-
deration of the circumstances under which it now stood before.
them. He understood that there was amongst a greahmajority-
of tile. Representatives of Scotland then present an anxious
desire to have a consultation with their constituents. He
also understood there were many persons in , Scotland who
wished to petition that House upon the subject; at the same
time that there were many of the Representatives of Scot-
land who did not expect that the measure would pass this
Session. Under these circumstances he thought it was due to
Scotland that the measure should not be hurried through the
House this Session.—(Hear, hear !)—He held the Bill in his
hand then wet from the press; it contained twenty-three pages,
and lie much questioned if it had been read by any one in the
House. He had heard it said that there was no reason why
the. House should not sit a week longer for the purpose of
passing a law. 'ln answer to this, it was to be observed that
week. would not answer the purpose, which he had noticed, viz.
the giving time to. Scotland to send Petitions to that House,
and to consult with their Representatives. He wished, how-
ever, not to be misunderstood as saying. that the House would
.abide the decision of every County Meeting that was held. It
was not the same thing that they should express their senti--
extents, and that the House abide by them. A certain deference
was due to the inhabitants of Scotland, in consideration of their
distance from the seat of Imperial Legislation. In conclusion,
he begged to say, that he was prepared to give the measure his
. full assent, and next Session should be ready to give it his
-hearty concurrence.
Mr. ABERCROMBY observed, that judging from his ex-
perience of the past, he must say that he felt considerable dis-
appointment at the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman. It
convinced him that it would he a mere mockery after that to
lead the people of Scotland to suppose that this measure would
. pass into a law at all. He was led to this conclusion from see-
ing the Right Hon. Gentleman place the success of the measure
upon the issue of the instructions which the Scotch Members
sLould receive from their constituents. He knew too well how
it had been on a former occasion, when the Noble Lord oppo-
site (the Lord Advocate) issued his mandate to the obedient
freeholders of Scotland. The issue in fact was thus placed upon
the Lord .V.lvocate.—( Hear, hear I)—lf:this were disputed, he
-could bring many thousands to speak to the truth of it. If the
Right Hon. Gentleman did not mean to decide according to the 4
wishes of the Scotch people, it was then only trifling with them
to make this delay. The evil of that House was, that it was
_always many years behind public opinion, and it was clear that
this measure would not pass till it was forced upon them by,
public opinion. If it had been an Insurrection Bill or Tax
Act, the Heim would have sat a week longer to pass it.
Mr. Secretary PEEL and Mr.• ABERCROMBY mutually ese.-
plained.
• The LORD ADVOCATE observed, that the llth of May
nest was the day upon which it was proposed that this mea.
sure should take effect. It was •clear, therefore, that none of
that haste ,contended for by the lion. and Learned Gentleman
opposite was in reality called for. He considered it would be
a very unfair -course not to allow the population of Scotland the
.opportunity of expressing their opinion of a measure which so
.nearly concerned them. He had done his utmost to prevent
the Bill passing, this Session, and if there was any crime in it,
he Was chargeable with it.
Mr. ...A.BERCROM BY explained.
Mr. KENNEDY spoke in favour of the Bill. The question,
le thought, was not whether they should row proceed with
this Bill in its regular stages, but why it had been delayed to
tile present period. It was evident to him that this was charge.
able upon his Majesty's Government seeing into whom the Bill
originated.
Mr. COUitTENAY .concurred in the postponement of the
measure. He certainly wished it had come earlier into the
House, but as it was he could not desire to see it now proceeded
,in. At the-eame time lie leaked forward cohfidenly to its sue-
oat& in. the next Session of Parliament.

Lord BINNING contended that there was nothing in the
...paktponement of this Hill within two days of the close of the
rr*ssion, to call for animadversion. At the same time he beg.
ged to say, that if he thought the celct of this postponement
would be to defeat,the measure, he would be the last person to
coccurin such course.

Mr. Secretary CANNING said, that he consented to the
delay of this measure singly for the purpose of giving the ap-
pearance of deference and respect to the national opinion of
_Lice:Aland. For his own part, he was perfectly prepared to
vote at the present moment. The lion. and Learned Member
bad arainadverted upon the conduct of Government. In an=.
ewer he -might truly state, that up to a very late period there
had been no notion whatever of the feelings which prevailed in
certain quarters on the subject. He did not, however, believe,
. That there was any disposition in Scotland. to receive the Bill.-
-This meaAirewas intended to be again submitted to Parlia-
ment in the ensuing Session, and though lie might not appre-
ciate.the importance of what was lost by the delay so fully as
the:Hon. ',Gentleman opposite, he could assure him, that if
next year it did not pass into a law, he should be as much dis-
-appointed as that Hon. Member could be. When, at a late
perioriof the Session, they found all that remained in London
of the Scotch-representation muclvalarmed at the apprehended
efrects of the passing of this Bill, it appeared to them that they
would have been wanting in respect to the Gentlemen con-
nected with Scotland, as he thought the House would be in
discretion, if an attempt were made under such circumstances
to carry it against the feeling which prevailed. It was no ar-
gument to say the: Session might have been prolonged. In-
eelividuals- had already acted on its supposed' duration, and it
would now be nearly impossible to procure such an audience
in that House as would-be necessary to the full discussion of
'measure.. Theie had remained no alternative but to
-force the Bill on, or to delay the passing of it into a law until
'next Session, and he conseieutiously declared that the latter
course had only been acquieseed in, to soothe the feeling of
which, he had spoken, in the hope that by soothing it would be
overcome. It had been a question whether it would be better'
-that the suspension contemplated should be proposed in that or
-the other,House. His :Majesty's Ministers were not unaware
that the course taken might look as if some difference existed
between those who conducted the public business in the Lords,
and their Colleagues
in the House of Commons. But this con-
sideration had been overpowered by that of the superior ini-
,portance which would be given to the Bill, by carrying it
through all its stages in the Lords, that it might not appear to
have been brought up there, as if the propriety of the measure
were doubted. -It was better in all respects that the Bill should
+3 sent to those whom-it most concerned in a perfect state. He
concludedrepeating th e. -declaration, that the delay proposed was
only deference to the Representatives of Scotland. _
After a fest/ words from Mr. KENNEDY anti another Hon.
Mxstnien. the Bill wes read a second time ; and, on the motion
Of Mr. Secretary PEEL., ordered to be committed on that day
'two months.
EAST INDIAN' POSSESSIONS BILL.
Having moved that the. House shotild go into a Committee
an the East-India Company's Possessions Bill,
Mr. Secretary CANNING rose, according to a, promise made
a few evening and repeated last night, shortly to open
the grounds of ICt 'diplomatic transaction, out of which this
measure arose.
The House would be pleased to recollect the
state in which this
vernment of country was placed with respect to the Go-
thelh eriands by the.peace of 1814.. At that
period, all the
possessions of the Dutch on the continent of
India, from which they
had been driven by conquest, were re-
stored by Treaty.
discuss the policy or the way not called:upon at that moment to
generally fel. country case of ou:until
of that etep ; but he believed
that it was
was largely ,interested,
in supporting the H
tees and s_uch being the case, it
14 was, however, lit .
vas considered wise not to press
aro on the Government of the
i ealexiawki, maßeient to state the fact that

the course which he had described was taken by Ministers, and 1
had received the sanction of Parliament,' When he came to the
Board of Controul many of the stipulations of the treaty
were carrying.into execution—on many points 'explanation was
required, and many questions were open-for discussion. From
the natural eagerness to re-poesess the places which were to
be restored, and the slowness attendant .04 their evacuation;
some disunion unfortunately arose in the East Indies, be,:
tween the agents of, the two countries, and great forbearanced
was necessary, to Prevent these from breeding ill humour be-
t Ween the two Governments in Europe. He did not speak
with ill nature of the conduct of any..of these agents; but
subordinate persons, at a very great distance from home,
were apt to look more at the policy of the measures decided
upon than they were required to do, and to act accordingly.
They forgot their relative size, as compared with the Govern-
ment to which they belonged, and soiiietimes acted with-
out authority, and placed Ministers at home under the ne-
cessity of supporting measures which they had not advised,
or of rescinding what had -been done by their agents. He
spoke within compass when he asserted that in the years,
1816 and 1817 not fewer than half a dozen treaties were con-
cluded by individuals in the East Indies, who• had not the
shadow of authority for what they did, froth each of which
it had been his duty to advise the Crown to withhold its sanc-
tion. He was then informed that the Government of the Ne-.
therlands, by its Agents, was endeavouring- to regain all the
influence which it had formerfly possessed, and evidently aimed
at excluding the English altogether from the Indian Seas.—
As was his duty, he desired to be informed of specific acts
indicative of such a purpose, that he by means of them might
bring the subject before the Government of the Netherlanda.—
Toon these inquiries he received no very distinct answers.—
He was told of the hostile disposition of the Dutch—of their
determination to crush the English interest there—anti of their
resolution not to allow an English sail to sbe seen on those
seas, and it finished with an obscure allusion to the massacre
at Amboyna.—(A laugh.)—He never could .gct any specific
facts brought before him, which Ministers could call on the
Government of the Netherlands to avow or disavow, or atone,
if they could not' be disavowed. On the other hand, many
complaints were received from the Government of the Ne-
therlands of the conduct of our own agents. It, happened un-
fortunately in one Bence,' that a Gentlemin of distinguished
ability, whose zeal for the service of his country could not be
questioned,' and who had formerly, been 'Governor of Java, on
being removed from that splendid situation was appointed Re-
sident at Bencoolen. That Gentleman, instead of being called
exactly what lie was, the Resident (who was in truth a Super_
intendant of Pepper) was styled the Lieutenant-Governor.
This caused some alarm, and it was supposed that the Eng-
lish. Government meant to make Bencoolen the capital of a
new empire. Hence differences arose. If each accused the
other of coveting a monopoly of the trade of India, it was to -
be remembered that other Powers might have brought the
same charge against both. A degree of ill-humour, however,
springing from the causes which he had described, was grow-
ing up between the Governments,
.which made it exceedingly
desirable that some step should be taken to define and adjust
their respective claims. As it was Stated to be the plan of
the Dutch to carry on an exclusive trade in the Indian Seas,
though the course was somewhat unusual in diplomacy, a dis-
tinct disavowal of such an intention or desire was called for.
In the course of these animosities and partial encroachments,
the island of Sincapore had been taken possession of by the en-
terprise of a gallant officer for England. We occupied it. 13ut
he was never quite satisfied, in his own mind, that we had
a right to do so; and not feeling sure that we had a clear
title, our claim had not been so fully or so vigorously asserted-
as it would have been under other circumstances. The title to
territory in the East, was not in all cases so clearly made out.
and defined as in Europe. On this subject some mistakes had
Occurred, and -the language of European policy had been erro-
neously used where it could not apply, while the measures of
Government, with respect to some of its late possessions, had
been commented upon in a tone of romantic morality which
had not usually been called forth on such occasion. It had
been assumed that we arc as much found to maintain that state
of things which had existed after the removal of the Dutch, as
William 111. was to uphold that Constitution, which was com-
mitted to his care after the flight of James Second. The nego.
elation broke off with the Dutch Government in 1821. He had
however felt, that while the Government of the Netherlands
was charged with desiring to keep exclusively to herself the
►commerce with the East India Islands, England did the same
1 by the Continent of India. This consideration necessarily li-
mited the topics which might otherwise have been urged. At hen
lie looked at the Dutch possessions not one of them was of any
great size, but all claimed different jurisdictions and rights.—
One claimed participation in the sale of opium, which was -not
admitted ; another claimed paiticipation in the silk trade,
which was not admitted ; and others claimed privileges of a
like character, which were admitted. These were in fact sub-
jects of constant irritation, which could not but continue so.
long as the establishments of the subjects of the Netherlands
remained intermixed with ours. It was desirable to get the
Dutch to give up these altogether. 14y inducing them to sur-
render their establishments on the Continent of: India, an end.
would be put to some of the, differences and to the et to gnogne
sort of argument which had been bandied between them. When
we had no lenger to call for an exclusive treaty for ourselves
we could with more effect advocate the principles of a free
trade. It was desirable that a line of demarcation should be
drawn to terminate present disputes and prevent future irrita-
tion. The retention of Sincapore was another object with us.
To obtain this, and to rid the Continent of India of the Dutch
settlements which had been mixed with ours, promised to in-
sure the existence of a good Understanding between the two
powers for all time to come. These points were all secured by
a treaty which, in return for them, gave to the Government of
the Netherlands the settlement pf Bencooien. This settlement
it had been more than once proposed to give up, from the
maintaining it being so onerous. The question bad been mooted
more than once by the East India Company, and itliati only
been decided not to abandon it, because if this were done it was
uncertain into whose hands it might fall. The charge created
by BencOolen exceeded its revenues annually by 85,0001. This
was the yearly cost of that barren possession. Same Dutch set-
tlers had gone to it with a view of raising spices there. To these
the Eied India Company had given the ground—had given them
the plans, and had lent them money to commence their pro-
' ceedings. Thus it would be seen that they had paid 85,0001.
per annum for a place in which they could not raise apices
without giving away the.land on which they were to grow, and
the plants from which they were to spring, and lending the
money to cover the first expences of cultivation. He would
ask when it had been before a question, whether or not Ben-
coolen should be abandoned, if the present cession deserved
blame, because they had got something for it in return. Mention
had been made of the loss sustained by giving up the trade in
spices. But with- such loss he had nothing to do, and -the treaty
in question had nothing to .do with it. That which was so re-
gretted was done by 'the treaty of 1814, which gave up to the
Dutch the only island in which they grew. It might be satis-
factory, however, to know, that the East India Company had
at present among their stores some five or six years' consump-
tion. There were a drug in the market hardly paid the ex-
pence of collecting them, and there was in hand a stock
which would last till the East India Company's Charter came
'again under their consideration, we were not likely to feel any
scarcity, of nutmegs, pepper, or cloves. To the Dutch mono-
poly or the spice trade we could not say much, while they
could point in their turn to our monopoly of the trade in opium,
in salt, and. in - cinnamon. For the lovers of those savoury
articles, which the Dutch were supposed to be anxious to
keep for themselves, it might be consoling-. to them to know,
that the climate and Soil of Sincapore and of Prince.of Wales's
Island were considered to be congenial to their growth, and
we might therefore
,hope for a' plentifitl. supply by the time,
the East India Company's stock in hand should be exhaust-
ed, if the Dutch should be mad enough (which he did not ex-
pect) to retain the monopoly of theist so long. By obtaining
Sincapore, we had gained what had been pronounced the one
thing necessary, the unurn necessarium, for the security of
our Indian possessions; we had secured a. continuous commu-
nication completely along- the whole of the Malay Peninsula ;
and by the Straits of Malacca to China, we had obtained the
extinction of all the Dutch establishments on the Continent
of India, and for these advantages we gave up a barren island,
which had cost us 85,000/. per annum, and thus removed the
cause of those differences Which had heretofore prevailed and
obtained a declaration from the Dutch in favour of as free a
trade in Asia as in Europe. This was a bargain which, it
appeared to him, could not be blamed as injurious to the East
India Company, or to that larger body in which the East India
Company merged. The Island of Sincapore thus obtained by
treaty had been left under the administration of the East India
Company, acting on the Act for regulating their Charter, which
passed ten years ago. Thus it was proposed that it should re-
main till Parliament should next be called upon to consider
what modifications of the privileges claimed under their charter
might be necessary—he meant that the Company were to ad-
minister Sincapore as they did their other possessions, and under
the same responsibility to the Government of this Country.
111 r. HUM E regretted the cession of Java to the Dutch at the
close of the late war. He did not know where the Right Hon.
Gentleman got his argument in favour of the cession of that
island. If, as he had stated, it was the object of England to
supnort the strength of the House of Orange" why did we with-
hold from them the Cape, Demerara, and Essequibo ? These
would have been given up, if the motive for restoring Java had
been-such as the Right Hon. Gentleman had supposed, but the
truth was that. Java had been given up in utter ignorance of
the interests of India. The cession of it was regarded by those
who were best acquainted with the subject, as one of the grossest
blunders ever committed in diplomacy. In giving up the na-
tives of Java, bound hand and fbot, to .thasae who had formerly
governed them by brute force, we violated the most solemn en-

gagernents. The removal Of.ilie,Dutch Settlements from the
Continent of India, obtained by thi's treaty, he held to be very
unimportant. Those settlements were the cause, perhaps, of
two hundred chests of opium being withdrawn from our mono-
poly, and was this- an object worth the price which had been
paid for it ? He,adverted to the allusion made by the Right
Hon. Gentleman to Sir Thomas Raffles, and eulogised that
Gallant Officer in the warmest terms. • He was of opinion that
the engagements entered into with the natives of the islands
now to be abandoned ought to have'been observed. He had no
hesitation in saying, that every cession we were now about to
make was as great a breach of public honour and good faith as
had ever been committed. Ile would agree that to maintain
Bencoolen at an annual expence of 85,0001. would be madness,
and six years ago he wished elle establishment of Prince of
Wales's
might have been abandoned without breaking faith, as
I‘,ehleastis Islanddoneandtoabcteinggivan tip. Rut those expensive establish-
ments
part by those to whom we
were bound by commercial treaties. In giving up the natives
to the Dutch, we handed them over, bound hand and foot, to
the most remorseless and tyrannical power that had ever been
established in India. The conduct of the Dutch was known
to be such as he had described, for proofs of this it was not ne.
cessary to go quite so far back as the massacre at Amboyna,
for in 1798, when he was at China., the appearance of a Malay
boat caused fear, from the murderous disposition by which the
natives were considered to be distinguished, in consequence of
the injuries they had received from the cruelty of the' Dutch.
The measures subsequently adopted by the English had re-
claimed the natives ; and, though accidents might sometimes
happen the character of the people had been completely
changed. After, this it was most unjust to' place. them once
more under their old masters. We had a right to abandon the
island in question, but not to restore their to the Government of
the Netherlands. This was an act of great injustice to the natives
and settlers. If the Right Hon. Gentleman had been'told that
the spices of Bencoolen cot' which he had spoken facetiously)
were not good, he was misinformed. In proot' of this, he would
read what had been said on this subject in a letter which had •
been received by one of our first brokers in, that trade: Here
the Hon. Gentleman read part of a letter, which pronounced
the mace, cloven:, and nutmegs, to be equal to thole of -Am-
boyna. He spoke of the evils which might arise from the ces-
sion of Bencoolen in the event of a war breaking out, and con-
tended that these would be of a serious character. He did not
think the Dutch could give us a fair title to Sincapore. He
hoped the measure before the House would bealeferred. If it
passed, it would be a recognition- of what had been done. He
thought it would be better to leave things as they were for the
present, till it was seen whether the mischief could not be re-
paired. He concluded by moving as an amendment, that the
House should resolve itself into the Committee on that day six
months.

Mr. ROBERTSON thought there were ample proofs before
them of the disposition of the Dutch to monopolise the. whole
commerce of the Indian Seas-. The island of Sincapore had
had nothing on it but a few baboons perhaps, and what diffi-
culty could there be in taking possession of such a place ? The
cession of BencoOlen would prove most injurious to us in case
of a war. The Hon. Member called the attention of the House
to the danger of giving up possessions in the. Indian Seas—
which would give the Dutch the power to exclude the East
India trade from the passage to China by the Straits of Sunda
and Molucca. It was of great importance to have a passage
by Sincapore; a war with the Dutch would destroy the China
trade.

Mr. C. WYNN said, before he entered into the arguments,
he wished to state what the bill was. It had been said they
ought to pause, in order to enable his Majesty's Ministers
to see what the effect of the treaty would be. This bill had
nothing to do with the treaty. It would be found that one
treaty had taken place, and that the passing .'of. this bill could
make no difference. The effect of it was this :—Bencoolen
having been given up by the East India Company, this bill
gave ,he power to cede it to the Dutch. He considered that
part of the I-lon. Member's speech (the Hon. Member who
moved the amendment) referred more to the treaty of 1814 than
any recent treaty. If the Hon. Member had attended to the
provisions of the Bill, his view would have been very different.
It was said the cession of Bencoolen would be attended with''
the loss of the China trade. What was Bencoolen ? Whatever
power had the naval force in those seas, would possess Ben..
coolen. The Dutch, in time of peace; would treat England at
Bencoolen as a favoured nation ; and, in time of war, he did
not know whether the 'country would require .any favour
whatever. The trade, in short, would be carried on after the
treaty, as it had been carried on previously. was then said a
great sacrifice was to be made. All that we gave up was a fort
and one carriage gun. It was also said the Dutch would form new '
commercial establishments. Admitting it might be so, had not
Holland the right to follow up commercial prospects, and would
not the principles of free trade benefit England in common with
the rest of India ? With respect to the spice trade, it was well
known that Prince of Wales's Island was likely to furnish as
much as this country could consume. The lion. Gentleman
supposed there would he bad faith -on the part of the Dutch,
but in the treaty the parties had agreed to recognise the rights
of the inhabitants of Bencoolen.

Mr. IiRIUiIT considered this a question which concerned
the honour ana'character .)f the country. If they suffered the
Bill to pass, they would give a sanction to the treaty. The
Dutch had long been known for treachery, and the commerce
of England in the East Indies would be endangered. He op-
posed the Bill firmly believing the treaty would be violated by
the Dutch.

Mr. ASTELL could not agree to the statement made by an
lion. Member who supposed the treaty would be broken by
the Dutch. The parties had agreed to observe it with good
faith, and it was useless then to say it' would be broken. II e
supported the Bill,

Mr. TRANT had attended several meetings where this
question had been discussed, and all the mercantile houses
trading to India. had given the treaty their approbation. The
cession of Bencoolen would be advantageous to she country.
Sir C. FORBES thought the treaty might he advantageous
to trade, at the same time he considered the cessions made by
the Dutch and England a violation of the rights of the popula-
tion in the places ceded.
Colonel MONEY said the . treaty was one of the most im-
portant for trade in the Indian seas which ever had been nego--
mated. The Hon. Member for. Aberdeen had said the trade
would be excluded from the Straits of Molucca,• and the Hon.
Member for Grampound also stated that the Straits of Sunda
would be shut. The Dutch had possession of Ceylon last war,
and trade was not stopped. Near Sincapore they had anchorage
for shipping to protect the trade.
The question, after a few words from Colonel BAILEY, was
put, and the amendment negatived.
The House then went into a Committee on the Bill.

Mr. HUME asked whether any compensation was to be
given to those who sustained loss by the cession of Bencoelen.
Mr. Secretary CANNING said he should have no objection
to listen to a claim, when a claim was made out, - •

The clauses having been agreed to, the Report was received,
and the Bill ordered to be read a third tinie this day.

SUPERANNUATION BILL.
Mr. 'BUXTON rye to move the third reading of the Super-
annuation Bill. Had the question been brought on earlier, he
should have stated his objections to the measure at some length.
.lie considered the Superannuation allowance to Clerks very
irregular. It was better to make a fixed allowance, rather than
give with one hand and takeaway with another. He thought his
Majesty's Ministers were not overpaid, and he threw out
these hints, not to be acted upon in the present Session, but for
the consideration of his Majesty's .‘linisters next Session.
'Mr. HUME objected to the Bill, and moved that it be read
a third time that day six months.
Mr. BA NKES seconded the motion. If the Bill was not to
pass in the present Sesaiorwthere might be an opportunity to
do justice to the subject next Session.
1)r. LUSH INGTON approved of the Bill, and thought Mi-
nisters were not overpaid for their services.
Mr. S. RICE supported tile Bill.
Sir C. FORBES suggested that the Secretary of the Board
of Controul ought to have a superanuation prov►sion.
Mr. Secretary CANNING conceived that office ought to have
a superannuation allowance, and intimated that it might be a
matter of future consideration.
The amendment was then negatived, and the Bill read a
third time.

The Report of the Irish Insurrection Bill was received, and
the Bill ordered to be read a third time this day.
The other Orders of the Day were disposed of, and the House
adjourned at lIALF-PasT Two O'CLOCK.

t 74,
....VT, 41,
-