The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-23 00:00:00

TFLE
_i!tUNI_LONI3O-14% TplIS DAY
_EVENING-, FEBIICAR_Y 232 ii4dy

"w"se-seseesss .sees sseesseseeseeeeea-sseeeesseeereeseeeseeseete.fss,
150,259 ; in November die number was 285,817 ; in
December the number was 404.687 ; and in January it
was 571,000. The expenditure up to the sth of January
,
ast• far a staff for the Board of Works, has been
20,500/.
; anti the amount expended for other officers
to• the same dale has been 27,5001. There has been ex-
Fended up to this time, for the purposes of draining
about 218,0901., and on depots the amount has been
295,0001.: nearly all the latter sum will be repaid
to the Government when the sales of the depots
take place. For the purposes of the Labour-rate
Act there has been advanced from the Exchequer
of this country to Ireland the sum of 2.400,0001., and of
this there has been disbursed under the direction of the
hoard of WTorks nearly two millions. This expenditure
of 2,400,000/. had taken place up to the 20th of Feb. last.
she amount raised by donations and expended
in Ireland from August till now has been 80,0001.
Now from this statement I do not think that
there will be required a sum less than a
million a month to meet the exigencies of Ireland.
The amount Nvhich was expended in January was
80,000/ and this did not include ell the outlay. No
doubt the Board of Works will in future be relieved of a
great deal of its pressure, but, en the other hand, it should
be recollected that therine• the summer months there
,are
. the greatest number o?destitute persons in Ireland.
Itiuring the months of June, July and August, there are
infinitely less people employed than at an earlier period
of the year. It was, I believe, in reference to these
three months that the statement the Right Hon. Gentle-
Man alluded to was made—that somewhere about two
Millions of people in Ireland were iu a state of total des-
titution for three months of the year. Again, we expect
no inconsiderable saving by the different modes of ad-
ministering relief, through the medium of soup kitchens
and relief committees, for they are considerably
enesper than the relief given by the public works,
On the other hand, the increase in the destitution of
that country and the increased demand for a supply of
food, will, I believe, render a greater amount of ex-
P,nditure necessary. Again, Sir, there is no doubt that
considerable number of persons will be taken off the
Public works by the employment afforded by the land-
lords of Ireland, under the Bill, which I hope will be
Passed
before long, for the improvement of their estates.
believed that the Bill will work well in Ireland.
for all accounts of it have induced in my mind very
sanguine expectations. Again, Sir, the advances made
Y the Treasury will have to be made, as far as I can
see from the data we have to go upon, down to the ga-
thering in of the next harvest. It is impossible to sup-
Pose that all exertions on the part of these national mea-
sures
can cease at once in harvest time, and it is quite
clear that advances for the purposes of carrying on many
7 orks must be continued ; so that it is very likely that
for some short period after the harvest—looking at the
°case in the most favourable light—these advances must
,e continued. Taking, therefore, the briefest view it is pos-
sible to estimate, I cannot estimate the expenditure under
eight millions. Up to the present time, as I have
already stated, two millions had been advanced, and
therefore the estimate of the total sum which will be
required to be expended or advanced, granted or lent,
for the relief of distress in Ireland, during the period of
about a year, will not be less than eight millions of
money--(Sensation.) Two millions have been already
dvanced, eight are to be advanced, making altogether,
from the conclusion of August last to the conclusion of
these operations, which I anticipate at the end
e
the harvest, ten millions of money.—(Hear.)
I do believe that even if the 16,000,000/. which the
Noble Lord opposite wished the Government to advance
t 0 the railways had been ordered by the House,
that not even one shilling of these 16,000,000/.
oeld be saved to the country. With the heavy
detnands which are now made on the resources
of the country, I was glad, although myself unable to
take part in this discussion—l say I was glad, and gra-
tified to see the authority by which the House
*Mrmed so wise and prudent a resolution.—(Hear
a,ear,) The announcement which I have now to mike
•uust be evident to the Committee—it must be evident
that I must go into the market to borrow, because no
amount of taxation will be able to produce within the
time required the money which is necessary for the
relief of Ireland. It is, therefore, a matter not of chance,
but of necessity, that I must go into the market to
borrow, and the first question which it is necessary
for me to ask is, shall I borrow the whole of the
8,000,0001., or endeavour only to borrow a part. If I
adopt the latter course, I must first consider whether I
shall not reduce the balances of the Exchequer. Now,
Sir, this is a course which I am most unwilling
to adopt. Sir, I think that no person who looks to
the state of what is called the money market of this
Country, who considers that the exchanges had been
!sfiverse to us (although I am happy to say that they
have lately been less adverse than they were, still they
are just at the turn), will say, after a consideration of
these circumstances, that it would not be
exceedingly injudicious in ms3,,teaifm fartherat
pressure on the monetary of this It must also be remembered that by a country
ryo.f
last session great advances were made for the
purposes of drainage and other improvements.
But, Sir, there is a still further and more weighty con-
sideration. It is uncertain what hangs over us, and what
will be the produce of the ensuing harvest no man can
tell. No man can overrate the importance of a good
harvest. Hitherto we have been living mainly upon por-
tions of the harvest of 1845—1 mean on the harvest of other
countries of 1845, and to some extent upon the harvest
of 1846. In the course of the last year there was in-
troduced, for home consumption in this country, of
grain and flour of all kifels, no less a quantity than
,318,000 quarters. It was hoped that there would
have been a considerable import of Indian corn,
the produce of the harvest of 1846, but those hopes
were not realised. lam confident, however, that in the
course of this summer we shall have an abundandant
a
--tP'Y of Indian corn; but still it is impossible
r,3
t-ea,aay what will be the produce of the next bar-
% It may please God to give us a good liar-
je-st throughout the world, but unless that dispensation
Muelisafed to us it will be impossible to calca-
-late for
the future. Sir, the means by which we met
pe pressure of last autumn was the large balance in the
ofletnequer, and I hope this will convince every Member
• the Committee of the necessity fur keeping some core
eplerable balance in the Exchequer. Sir, this being so,
believe the wiser and more prudent course is at once
to borrow the extreme sum. Honourable Gentlemen
must remember, that in borrowing this, I do not take
Permanent responsible position, because a considerable
portion of the sum will be repaid by Irish landlords.
off the expenditure on the public works in Ireland, halt
Ihas been granted as a charge upon the property of
eaand, and payable in a period of ten years. The
arn °llat of these repayments, as they come in, will, of
course, extinguish a considerable portion of the
debt proposed to be contracted. But, even
th
ntigh the half of the sums granted to
Ireland should be repaid, there would still
remain a balance of 4,000,000/. or 5,000,000/., which
will not be no much when it is considered for what
Purpose the grant has been made, viz., for the relief of
our
ti suffering fellow creatures. The next ques-
-1 of course is, whether, in the borrowing of
tha'arge a Sum, I should not have accompanied
thet loan with increased taxation, not only for
Propurpose of paying the interest of the loan
to be raised, but also for discharging a portion
el; the debt before a long period. I was exceediegly un-
even to the amount which I have earned, to in-
crease the amount of the permanent debt without malting
some immediate provision for its extinction before
longf„, I was unwilling to add even this amount
the permanent debt; but, on the other hand, there
ere many reasons which induced me to pause before I
determined on the adoption of that course. In the first
place, among
many other reasons, the present year is
Ong in which it would be most unfortunate to attempt
any
alteration in the taxation of the country. Every
body knows that a season of great taxation invariably
induces stagnation of trade. In proof of that assertion,
compare the first quarter of the year 1846 and the first
quarter of the present year. In the last year the repeal
of the corn-laws and other duties was hanging over the
commerce of the country, thereby causing great
Uncertainty in commercial matters. in the present year
el agitation has been suspended, commerce has been
thrown open, and, as I have already stated, a remark-
able increase in the Customs and Excise has been
the last and present made in consequence in the corresponding quarter
years. Further than that,
'ay.
think no inconsiderable weight is t be
at-
tached to the consideration mentioned before, namely,
With reference to the amount which the Government
hist)! ultimately have to obtain. If, as I hope, the har-
vest.,
kof the next year turns out a plentiful one—it, ,as
"Pc, from one source or another, employment, or the
means of subsistence, be provided for the suffering people
ro.ofrlrthe elalonoda,then in such case the present demand now made
VaZof thee may
not be required. If, however, upon the
earrY, the produce of the harvest should be deficient ;
should be again a failure of the potato crop, and
count grain imported from elsewhere, or grown in this
" rY, should be a high price and dear, then it will be
itteheeeeesasy for the country to come forward and assist
starving Population, and allowing a further
demand to
country. ibe
unlade p the public resources of the
• that I ah 11 °Pe
the übefoonre Parliament meets again
a be Able to inform them of
prosperous state of the country, in connexion
with the harvests.
•
I think, therefore, that it is better to
postpone dealing
until with the question of increasod
taxation
knowledge of
e can deal with it with the
full
the existing circumstances.
lion. Gentlemen must be aware that in the next session
of Parliament it will be necessary to deal with the
question of the renewal of the income-tax. If taxation
was to be increased this year, that is one of the
sources of revenue to whichone would naturally look
As a fit tax to impose, but I think it would be extremely
unwise to deal with it this ear—to prejudge Parliament
--a new Parliament, perhaps. It for these reasons, Sir,
is
that it would be well if I could this year provide for the
loans Out of the ordinary revenue; but I !Propose adopt-
-11:1g A more prudent course, and not increasing the taxa-
tion in the present year, but leaving that question to
be dealt with next year. Now, Sir, I have already
stated that the ordinary revenue was 52,065,0001.,
t therefor
a : theordinary expenditure was 51,576,000/., leaving
surplus of 489,000/. Now, Sir, auseming that
I borrow 8,0t;,2•000/. what will bOhe annual interest OP
that amount ? V F dnurse it is obvious that at 3 per cent.
the interest would be :210,000/. ; at 4, 280,0001.; and at 4,
320,0001. Sir, I have no .I.loubt in the world of being
able to borrow that amount 3}—(Cheers)—there-
fore the interest will be 280,000/4 hut I am afraief
Sir, that that is not the only demand which will
be made upon us in the shape of intvrest,
for there is another description of debt upon
Which, after the best inquiries I have been able to make,
I regret to say that I feel myself under the necessity of
raising the interest upon Exchequer-bills. There
are many reasons which have led to a depression of value
in that description of security in the markets. The
rate of interest had been already raised, and it might be
still further raised in the course of the spring. If that
Were 80, it did apps r to him that it was tiq cleifirable

that that description of security should be left to be
berrnwed, like all other kinds of security, in
the money market. Taking all these matters
into consideration, he had, though most mi
willingly, determined upon raising the interest
on Exchequer- bii ls.—(Cries of •' Hoar, hear.":t
The interest on Exchequer-bills is now three-halfpence
a day. An experiment was made to raise them
a farthing a day, which so completely failed that it ha-
been abandoned. I propose to raise them to twopence,
which will make an annual expenditure of 142,0001., and I
c dculate that the increased interest of debt will hi
422,0001. ; so that the total ordinary expenditure.
with the addition of the loan, will make
a sum of 51,998,000/, leaving a surplus of 67,0001,
There has been this year a more than ordi-
nary source of revenue—l mean the balance ot.
China money yet unpaid from that source.—(Hear,
hear.) This is a matter of certainty, and not caleula
don—l expect 450,000/. There is, however, also, at
extraordinary source of expenditure of 185,0001., which
it is necessary to vote in order to cover the naval
estimates in the financial year ending in April last.
So, therefore, adding extraordinary receipts to ordir
!no, me, and also adding extraordinary expenditure to
,t-ciinary, it leaves a total
Income
Expenditure

Leaving a surplus £332,000
This was not a very satisfactory state of the revenue—
a state of things showing a considerable disproportion
r,etween the income and expenditure. But it
is not our intention, in the present session of Par-
liament, to make a permanent provision on the sub-
ject, partly from the want of infomation as to the
great amount which may be required, and partly from
the necessity which may exist the next year for further
large supplies to be advanced.—(Hear, hear.) Certainly
it is my anxious desire that there may not
be required more decided measures to equalik
the expenditure to the income ; but if there
should be, then, in another session, the
House must be prepared to make an addition to the
taxation of the country. I will not ask you at present
for any permanent provision; but should the necessity
continue, then I will not shrink from proposing thou,
measures which I may think necessary and expe-
dient for the purpose of bringing the revenue
proportionate to the expenditure.—(Hear, hear.)
At all events Hon. Gentlemen need not expect that we
shall have any revenue to spare this year.—(Hear, hear.)
And Hon. Members on both sides of the House who
advocate, some a reduction in tea, others a reduction in
coffee, tobacco, and paper, need not expect that
we shall be able to spare any of the revenue
to meet their respective views. I throw out this
intimation, in order that no hopes or expectations
may be excited.—(Hear, hear). Now, I will take thi
opportunity of answering a question which was asked
me in the earlier part of the evening, which was.
whether we intended to propose any annual duty in lien
of the sugar duty. Ido not think there is much import-
ance in this question, because it is my intention to
take two votes—one of which I shall propose to-night—
without which it will be impossible for the ordinary
expenses of the Government to be defrayed. This year the
duty on sugar is arranged for, and next year the income-
tax will come under consideration. At present, however.
it is not my intention to propose any other duty.
—it will be the better course not to propose any annual
duties. Sir, before I sit down, I will simply say that
ii
is idle to talk of personal regret of that which is an evil
to the public at large, but no person can regret more sin-
cerely than Ido the present period of calamity,which we all
feel. It is an interruption to that course of financial and
commercial policy which has for a considerable time
prevailed, and which during the last four years has been
carried on with unexampled success.—(Wear, hear.)
It is true that the income-tax may be continued, but it
is entirely changed in its character, when it has been
made the means of governing those beneficial changes
which the Right Hon. Gentleman has proposed.—(Hear.
hear.) Ido not mean now to say that I approve or dis
approve of the whole of them. No person can
more fully concur in the general scope and policy
of those measures which relieve trade from all unnecessary
restrictions, foster the industry of the people, and make
a material addition to their comforts. Just before I
came into the House a paper was put into my hand.
which I am sure will be satisfactory to the com-
mittee, and which I hope may dispel some
portion of the gloom which my statement may
have cast on the minds of Honourable Members
Sir, the statement which I am about to read contains ri
certain number of articles, the consumption of which
has been taken for the last four years. I have
taken those which enter most largely into
the consumption of the great body of the people,
and I think that the Committee will see from
the numbers I ana about to read how materially the
comforts of the people have increased by the enlarged
quantities they have been enabled to consume. I first
take coffee. The consumption in 1843 was 30,031,422
lbs.; in 1844, it was 31,391,297 lbs.; in 1843, it was
34,318,0951b5; and in 1846, it was 36,781,391 lbs. I will
next take butter. There was entered in the year 1843 ,
148,295 cwt.; in 1844, 180,965 cwt.; in 1845 there were
240,118 cwt.; and in 184, 255,130 cwt.
I will next
take cheese. In 1843 there were imported
166,563 cwt ;
in 1844 there were 212,206 cwt.; in 1845 there
were 258,246 cwt.; and in 1846 there were 327,490 cwt.

I shall now take currants, and I find that there were
entered for home consumption in the year
1843
1844
1845 '369,000 „
1846
In the article of sugar I find that there was entered
for importation in the year.
1843
1844
1845 -
1846
Now in all these articles there had been a great reduc-
tion of duty, and it will be observed that on the article
of tea—the reduction of the duty on which has been
of late so much agitated—it will be observed that
though the duty on that article has not been reduced,
yet, from other causes, the prices had been considerably
lowered, and a corresponding increase had, therefore,
taken place in the consumption. Now I find that in this
article there has been entered for home consumption in
the years
1843
1844
1845
1846
These were articles which entered largely into the con-
sumption of the great body of the people, and it must be
satisfactory to the House, and is more especially to the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, to observe the increas-
ing imports of these very necessary articles. It
is very satisfactory to me that I am enabled
to make such a statement as this, because
it proves, in a very great degree, the tendency
to increased prosperity of the country, and to extended
comforts among the labouring classes. Sir, I have now
made the statement which it was my duty to do. I hope
that I have made it clear to every one, and I have ti
request that if any person has a question to put, he
will put it now, as I am afraid I may
not be able to stay longer in the House. The vote, Sir,
which I have to put into your hands, is a vote of
8,000,0001. out of the Consolidated Fund.
Mr. HUME wished to make one or two observations
on the statement that had just been made. He at once
admitted that the Right Hon. Gentleman had made the
ease perfectly clear, and he must udd that the Right
Hon. Gentleman had exhibited skill and knowledge in
the statement he had made. He could not consent
to this new grant to Ireland without he
had some pledge to compel the property of
Ireland to maintain its poor—(Hear, hear)—and he very
much regretted that the Right I-lon. Gentleman had sat
down without saying one word upon the remedial
sures which , had already been promised.—(Hear,
hear.) He must also regret that the Right
I I oneurable Gentleman, after stating such undoubted
proof of the wisdom and advantages that have arisen
from the liberal policy of former years, did not say one
word as to these future reforms which were so much
calculated to increase the commerce of the country.
With reference to the article of tea, he did not think
that the revenue would suffer anything by the reduction
of the duty on that article. Of the 600,000,000 yards of
common calico sent out of this country, 180,000,000 yards
t hCehindautyonlyon.
tea© tahouggrheta
great
h ai
nt c
rbe)ilsae
roefdiutctiownentofto
would be made in the quantity of consumption.
of
articles.
view
He thought
he
subjecttte
u
c s
Governmenttomabl ew andus
takingexcise aub 100 n
e-
sided
of f
in the course they had proposed. Then, again, with
respect to the duty on copper, which amounted only to
the paltry sum Of 40,0001 or 50,0001., he thought that
the country lost three times that amount by the system
of policy pursued by this country. France and the
United States were already beginniess, to smelt their own
copper because of the restrictions imposed on the
article in this country. There were also 150 or 200
articles the duties upon which should be
eelotwrehoile
u
swept
away
thefroGmovtehrne tut
Ireland. There was no doubt that the state of that coun-
mesntatsee-ebmeoekd.
toTh
c
coun-
try was one of the greatest emergency; the Government
should, however, treat Ireland as an extraordinary charge
and take the surplus revenue for the purpose of libe-
rating the commerce of the country, treating Ireland
by extraordinary means. He was quite dissatisfied with
the policy pursued by the Government ;
utmost freedom should be given to the com-
merce and the manufactures of the country.
He held a statement in his hands which set forth,
that, during the last two months, a decrease of
men in full employment, and increase of men
in half employment had taken place in one
part of the country also; who was to support them?
(Hear, hear.) Such an extraordinary emergency
as the one with which they bad to deal ought to be
met by extraordinary measures. By a great
change in their commercial policy. The surplus
balance was, he believed, 76,0001. ; this year
it was 2,800,0001., which was to be attributed to
the partial carrying out of rational and proper
measures for the extension of commercial en-
tPrerise ; but was not this a strong proof
1 thai. tliey ought to go on and remove the shackles
still iniposed on trade, by promoting other
measures having for their object the promotion of
commerce unfettered by injurious restriction. He sin-
cerely hoped that such measures would be
brought forward without delay. Even the money
bei et: spent in feeding the unemployed in
.Irellied end Scotland would promote the regeneration
of the people. Certainly there was no hope
of regenerating the people of Ireland, because
• hev would lead them to believe that, in similar emer-
ne 'cies, they would be supported by the state, and not
e
by the owners,. of the soil who ought to be
compelled to support them. There was more
hope for Scotland, as the proprietors had come
forward and aided thew. Thal evyry Qll Qf the

- - - - - -
setimates had been increased. Last seeelon
the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) sought a vote of
1,000,000/. for the purpose of placing the steam navy in
in efficient condition, and the House acceded to the
proposition; but did any one believe that the Navy esti-
natee would be increased this year? Instead of such a
preposition. he expected a reduction this year to that
smount. This ought not to occur at such a period.
Looking, therefore, at the great increase which has been
illuded to, and looking at the difficulties of the money
!nark( t, when the Government were obliged to raise the
interest of their money. He would wish to ask what
would be the effects of the measure upon their
merchants and traders who were carrying on the com-
eeerce of the country. The income-tax should be ex-
tended to Ireland. The Irish should have fair play—
(Hear, hear.) Yes, they had been an oppressed people;
they had never been given either civil or political privi-
leges. He would give them equal laws, but they should
iave equal taxes. (Hear, hear.) In fact, he would at
ence extend the whole code of English laws to Ireland.
He regretted that there had been no attempt to equalize
he rate of taxation. In what situation would
.hey be at the end of August, if there came
another year of scarcity, the Government would fled
the echoes from the different parts of the country by no
neans satisfactory.—(Hear, hear.) According to the
statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman, there was to be
an increase in almost every department of the State—in
the army, the navy, and the ordnance. Now, the Right
lion. Gentleman should have stated the grounds on
which this increase was proposed to be made. Hew was
it that the expense of these departments was to be more
'him in 1845, and last year ? Moreover, there should have
been some arrangement by which the 8,000,0001. pro-
posed to be raised might be paid back within a few years.
The expenditure of 1832 was 5,800,0001. less than the
present year. That was during the unreformed Parlia-
ment. The next year, 1833, under the first estimate of
the reformed Parliament, the expenditure was 7,428,0001.
less than the present year. In the year 1835, which was
ather a remarkable year, when the Hon. Member for
ramworth, then Prime Minister, prepared the estimates
himself, the expenditure was less than the present
year by 7,773,000. Ho did not include in the present
year's estimates either the 8,000,0001. to be advanced on
the interest, or 400,0001. on the Exchequer Bills. The
House had a claim upon her Majesty's Government to
be told why this additional expenditure was called for
this year. He was told that it was extended upon the
army, navy, and ordnance. Well, let them take 1830,
under the Duke of Wellington's Government, the esti-
mates for the army, navy, and ordnance were less, by
3,000,000/. than the present year; and the miscellaneous
estimates were less by 1,800,000/. In 1840, when they
were engaged in the war with China and a dispute with
France—when they had a large fleet in the Mediterra
nean—when the siege of Acre took place—and when the
urge amount expended in Canada had not been repaid—
the estimates were 2,930,0001. less than the present year.
The Right Hon. Gentleman had not attempted to justify
the increase which had taken place in any one of these
departments. He only made his estimate in a clear and
distinct manner. It might be, but still he only men-
ioned the sums he wished the House to sanction, without
stating what were the reasons which compelled them to
'lave recourse to the House for these amounts. He
agreed with the opinion of the Right Hon. Baronet
ipposite, that no tax ought to be imposed on a country
a a time of peace. But if the Right Hon. the Chan-
Aor of the Exchequer must borrow money, he should
to it in the right way. He should borrow one hundred
eounds of money on every hundred pounds of stock, for
ray the operation of the three per cent. consols he would
he adding 800,000/. to the permanent debt of the country.
Now he should like to see the Government commence
upon this new course; and, depend upon it if they did,
:hey would then be enabled to reduce the interest pay-
tble upon the national debt. But now they were going
upon an eroneous system altogether, in so far as, al-
houghec ho
usttohme
Custom-house
officersmsl had been
baebeonlisihneedre,asthede
bsyal4a9,
rieosoo 1.
h
while in the three years, 1843, 1844, and 1845, the in
!rease in all the public departments amounted to
234,000/. It behoved the aristocracy of this country to
weigh well the effects of throwing upon posterity the sum
,18,000,000; for depend upon it, a time would come
when this debt would be shaken of, and the consequence
would be, that all property would be shaken to its centre.
Mr. ROEBUCK could not allow that opportunity to
pass without entering his solemn protest against the
measure proposed by the Government. In common
with other Hon. Members he considered that the state-
ment of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, could not have been more complete,
Tore proper, or more frank.—(Hear) ; and he, in
common with them, regretted the indisposition under
which the Hon. Gentleman laboured whilst delivering
his statement. He deprecated any desire to unfairly
it tack or oppose the Government, but he thought on
.in occasion like the present—important in the highest
degree—and he believed most imminent and portentous,
that no one should shrink from openly stating their ob-
jection to the propositions laid before the House. First
,f all, a suspicion was created in his mind, in consequence
,;f the altered course of proceeding. The Government
had already passed a Bill, creating machinery for distri-
buting relief to the Irish people, and of vesting the per-
sons so appointed with unlimited power over the funds.
This Bill, he believed, had passed the other House. In
addition, they had passed a Bill, which had been impro-
perly called " a Bill of Indemnity," as it was a Bill to
make valid every presentment made at Quarter Sessions
in Ireland, and he believed that such presentments
vith scarcely an exception had been made throughout the
whole of Ireland. Yet the Chancellor of the Exchequer
now sought power to make a loan of not less thin
3,000,000/, stating, at the same time, that he had in
view the incurring of an expenditure of 10,000,000/.
What was absolutely necessary was a Bill to tax the
proprietors of land in Ireland for the support of the poor.
A Bill of that nature had been introduced, but it had
been put off since the commencement of the session in
the most remarkable manner. As he should
show from [the conduct of the Noble Lord
at the head of the Government. He (Lord J.
Russell) said that he really hoped and believed
that he was about to encounter no opposition to
the principle of the Bill, which, he stated, was, that the
property of Ireland should be taxed to the amount
which would sustain the poor of Ireland.—(" Hear,
hear," from Lord J. Russell.) Now he (Mr. Roebuck)
understood that seventy of the largest proprietors had
signed a statement in opposition to the Noble Lord's
views. A number of Roman Catholic clergymen had
waited upon him, expressing their dissent at the conduct
of the Irish party. Now these gentlemen represented
themselves as expressing the feelings of the whole of
the Irish people. He was inclined to believe that
they had banded themselves together for the pur-
pose of opposing the proposition of a poor-law for Ire
;and. They are quite willing to receive what money we
will give them. But he did hope that English gentlemen
would make a stand, and that they would not permjt any
delusion ; and before they assented to any sum they
should insist upon a poor-law for Ireland. He would
like to know why Irish gentlemen, who came over to
England for six or seven months, and maintained their
carriages, should not be made to pay the same taxes
as the poorest [wizen was liable to. t (Hear,.) Why
he wanted to know how it was, that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer did not come forward and propose, in order
to meet a portion of the eight millions, it' not the
whole,_ that a property tax be imposed on the landlords
of Ireland. He could not at the present time make a
proposition on the subject, but before the matter was
disposed of he would bring forward that question, and
he did hope that every English gentleman in that House
would support it ; or if they did not, he trusted the con-
stituencies which they represented would vote it. He
would propose that property in Ireland, as well as in
England, should be made to bear the same burden,
so that all might contribute alike. The present was
said to be an imperial calamity, and that it was right
that the United Kingdom should afford relief. Graeted ;
it was an imperial calamity, and should be met by impe-
rial measures. Ireland, as well as England, should be
made to contribute. It was said that if they imposed an
income-tax on Ireland, the landlords would never pay.
He did not accede to that ; the lauded property of Ire-
land was rated at 13,000,000/. ; and taking that as a
basis, he would tax it to that amount. Irish Members
had stated that the poor-rates wore generally
paid, and he did not see any reason
why a property-tax should not also be paid.
If the property-tax be not paid, let the property be sold.
It appeared to him that they should not get out of the
scrape. It was but common justice that they should be
placed upon the same footing as the rest of the UnitedKine'-
dom. There was one great difficulty to which he wished
to call the attention of the Noble Lord. Government
had gathered together 600,000 men on the public works,
and the next difficulty would be to disband them. They
had been withdrawn from the cultivation of the soil, and
applied to employment of a different kind, and the diffi-
enity now would be to get them to resume their ordinary
occupations. He admitted that the Government had a
difficult problem to solve, more difficult than any body of
potatonLord
,dlow nrr.hodotl: JOHN
failure.
hoOyoElbwli3lNea
men had had for a long time to contend with. He did
Government.mietuthsesELL—youeannot blame us for the
extent,ah e
w h oo
whole
evUeer,Ke—The
ipuoitoantsoocfroappohpaudlaftaioilleidtot o
fetehde.
six
population nimillions.--(A
Ireland voice
was" notsix t starvingen: " T;
hbeuyt
those who were subjected to the calamity were forced to
that
use a kind of food superior in quality and more difficult
to obtain than any to which they had hitherto been
accustomed.
and
TheheEmasetanlntlo use
a term
was
ia aof
paternal,h
Government,
approbation. It had great power, good intentions, vastg
intelligence, and had besides what no Government in
Ireland had to deal with—a docile people. What
was the result which they experienced in
dealing with the visitations of Providence in
India. Why, every attempt they made to
alleviate those dispensations had failed, and had been
productive of more evil than if they
So strong, therefore, had this feeling prevaledeithat
_ had done nothing!
i
they were determined to interfere no more with these
dispensations. They were determined
the way of obtaining
re-
strictions, and to put the people in
ined to remove all
the means of relief, but to abstain fi om all interference
themselves. Now the same line of proceeding was
statement made by a number of gentlemen, some of
whom were Catholic clergymen, with respect to the con-
exactly applicable to Ireland. He held his, hand a
dition of Mallow. The Committee stated that the dis-
tress in that town could not be considered as
resulting from the failure of the potato
boonr
op,
as the sufferers had no land—there had
some reasoning attempted to account for this—hutthese gentlemen stated that the same distress prevailed
every last and
iled
every year—it was the same the year
would be found to be the same next year—the greater
part of the population living on one meal in the day for
half the year round. What was the inference he wished
to draw from that statement. It was not to make any
imputation, and therefore he hoped not to be made
the subject of the angry vituperation to which he had been
latei/nbleoctl. 1119 inferouce betwisited to draw from thin was

thst if Government pursued the course they now proposed,
they would only increase and exacerbate all the evils which
belonged to Ireland. They would encourage that improvidence
and: want of forethought which made that people trust upon
every one rather than themselves. They had three millions of
people now deperalieg on them, and were expending at the
rite of a million a inouth for their support, and the conse-
quence of all this would be, that they would demoralise
the people.—(Hear, hear.) He had letters from every
part of Ireland to corroborate what he said, and he knew that
it was true, else he would not say it. He appealed
to every one who knew any thing of Ireland in confirmation
of the truth he had expressed—that the people placed their
sole dependence on the Government. He thanked the House
for allowing him to make these observations, and he would
conclude by warning the Government to abandon this loan for
eight millions. They would find their calculations, as to the
termination of the distress in August, disappointed ; they
would find then that they would have to cope with the same
amount of distress as at present—Parliament not sitting—
themselves unable to meet the emergency—the same cry—
" give '—"give"—still prevailing as at present, and all their
exertions ending in making the mass of misery still greater.
He warned them, therefore, to stay their steps in time, and eat
drag down the people of England to the same condition
as the people of Ireland were at present reduced.
Lord J. RUSSELL rose not to add any thing to the state-
ments which had been made by his Right Hon. Friend the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, as he had stated the views of
the Government so fully and clearly that it would be quite
superfluous to do so, but he wished to make a few observations
on the speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had
just sat down, because admitting, as he admitted to the Go-
vernment, that his views were for the benefit of the country,
he was hound to say that he was utterly deceiving himself as
well as Parliament, and the greatest danger and folly would
result from their adoption. In the first place, with regard to
taxation, the Honourable Gentleman said that the income-
tax ought to be extended to Ireland; that the pre.
sent was an imperial calamity; and as Ireland was a
part of the United Kingdom, that it should contribute
its quota by the income-tax to the alleviation of the
calamity. It must be recollected that the present distress
pressed most severely upon Ireland, and the greatest exertion
had been made by the gentlemen of that country to relieve it—
that they had received but a small portion of their ordinary
rents, and had expended in many cases all their usual income.
He said, thin, while this was the condition of Ireland, however
right it might be, if the income -tax was to be continued to
this country, to extend it also to Ireland, at the same time,
in the present circumstances of that country, he thought it
would be neither wise nor just to impose the income-tax upon
Ireland. He, therefore, could not agree with the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman in that proposition. The Hon. Gentle-
man then went on to show that the present state of things was
nothing but the ordinary state of Ireland, and he
read a statement which he (Lord John Russell) had seen
in October last. It was, however, a most rash and
unfounded statement to make, that the description there given
was at all like the ordinary state of Ireland. Let them sup-
pose that three-fouths of the ordinary production of the soil
had failed, could it be said that the state of things which fol-
lowed that was the ordinary or usual condition of the country.
It was this difference which now produced so large an amount
of mortality as now prevailed, and it was clear to every
one, that had net some means been adopted, that the
deaths would have been multiplied ten or a hundred fold. In
England there was a poor-law to meet that state of things, but
seeing that they had, not resources in Ireland to meet the
emergency, large sums of money had to be advanced from the
National Exchequer to ward off the famine. There might
have been different ways to do so than the Bills which had been
introduced, but he could not reconcile himself to allow such a
calamity to pervade the people, without endeavouring to
h
,virt Gentleman
tnao te
oy
mistakef wastthph areet wanted in the ordinary operations of trade.
There might
m
alleviate, to some extent, the pressure, and to supply
ypf auwebilfle a
prevailed
dloertr
with
odiun
of
bhtt
hewf
respectaoi
tsar edcavoe advanced.
neon
csntti
eroor
country,
the economy, but
nThbt
aauhshyte:oey yetr)assertion
iunahelcevthehr gaderadet
that
regretted
ahsettsethtafe i n
epodger ttpechhai
people
had been taken from farm labour to be employed on the public
works, as well to the assertion that there was an amplitude of
employment for the number of persons who might be employed
in farm labour. From the very necessity of the case it was
evident that the holdings were so small that the farmers did not
require the assistance of these labourers, and, therefore, it is
evident that no injury whatever could have accrued to the
country to any extent. He did not think that the people
had been demoralized by these works—by the execution
of these task works, so far as the wages were concerned. If
the labourer could obtain the wages for his work, why should
he be demoralised by changing from one kind of work for an-
other, simply because the works on which he was employed
were what might be called useless. Supposing any gentleman
chose to make a piece of ornamental water on his grounds, and
was it to be called a useless and demoralising r , e men
got their wages, any more than if they had been engaged in
But the great
u
he paid the wages to those who wereemployed
wokonifththe work
making a harbour, er in deepening a river. B
Irish society ? and that was t
Whether the landlords or the Government could, by employ-
ment of the poor, so provide as to create a permanent supply of
question was, how was this grheeatveehsatinognetotohohceobntroomugphlatteodv—er
producedthouh t
tthat
sufficientb y the
lands,F oitr be
merefood for
culture the coofuthcetry
time; and, considering the increase of the population, he was
impressed with the belief that the potato culture could not be
recovered in less than seven or eight years with success, lie
cohuimldsenla
perfectly agreed with the observations of the Hon. Gentleman,
that in addition to the great distress of this year, much was to
be apprehended and provided for during the next, and it was
therefore ridiculout not to anticipate great changes. He did
believe that in consequence of this movement that a measure
must be introduced, both in this House and the other House of
Parliament, for an amendment of the poor-law in Ireland ; and
he stated this, because he believed that the Irish Members
would not, in consideration for their country, oppose such an
alteration, and he believed that the result would be productive
of great convenience, although he very much regretted the
immediate inconvenience that must, for the present, arise from
it, and which appeared to be apprehended from the few words
that had fallen from the Hon. Member for Coventry, respect-
ing the estimates, for those estimates had been prepared with
the most impartial consideration, for the welfare of the
country. He could certainly tell that Hon. Member, that
those estimates had been prepared with a view to the utmost
economy, so far as it was necessary for the welfare
of the country to consider that point. But it should be recol-
lected that it was necessary to keep up both branches of the
service in such a state of efficiency as would enable them to act
effectually in the event of an invasion of the country. It
should be recollected that last year there had been a great
increase in both trade and commerce. These estimates had,
indeed, been prepared with a view to preserve the greater
uniformity between the two years, so that there were only three-
quarters of the year included in the estimates for this. Last
year the estimates for these branches was 6,630,0001., and this
year it was 6,640,0001.; during the quarter last year it was
9,972/, and this year it was 12,7871. In the Ofrdnthance
ythear
e
2,679,0001., making an increase of 135,0001.
,
For the corres-
ponding arter it
quarter last year it was 61,2391., while for this quarter and or is
estimates last year were for 2,547,0001
b an
addition to the number of men required for the Ordn
de lii the
n Navy
ment, and in order to render the service effective.
I
was 67,258/. This increase had been rendered necessary
Y
estimates, the increase was 17,4261., being for an addition of
1,500 men. He could assure the Hon. Member for Coventry
that the estimates of the increase of the number of men was
for 3,000, but the Government had only decided upon an in-
crease of 1,500 for the present year. He (Lord J. Russell)
must allow that there had been a large increase since the year
1835, but still be believed that the increase was no more thann
justified by the enlargement of our commercial relations,
d
that it was necessary, for the security of that commerce, and
was one of the great reasons why that commerce flourished at
the present period of distress.—( The Noble Lord was loudly
cheered throughout his speech, which continued some time
after he sat down.)
Lord G. BEN TINCK could not sufficiently admire the
clearness of the exposition which his Right Hon. Friend the
Chancellor of the Excheqner had made to the House, nor
sufficiently admire the chivalrous bravery which had induced him
to leave a sick bed to make that statement; and deeply did he
(Lord G. Bentinck) regret that his Right lion. Friend had
been compelled to leave the House, especially as the discussion
had stated that he
His Right Hon. Friend sta _
might prove useful in that discussion to make up the deficiency
in the Exchequer.
Was not prepared to make up that deficiency by any increase of
the income-tax. His Right Hon. Friend might well abstain
from making any increase of that tax amid the present stagna-
tion of trade, and had done well to congratulate himself on
the increase of the revenue from the taxes derived from the
taxes on the articles of consumption. But there might be an-
other reason why his Right lion. Friend had abstained from
an increase of the income-tax, and this he supposed would be
found in the fact that the present Parliament was in its last
year, and that neither the members of the present Government
or the late Government would like to go to the country for an
election with the knowledge that they had voted for
an increase of the income-tax. The Honourable Member for
Coventry (Mr. Williams) had expressed great surprise at the
great increase of the military and naval forces. Nor was it
all surprising that he should do so, for when he recollected
the high flown promises of the Noble Lord who had risen from
his native woods and forests into his new quality, he had pro-
mised the people of Sheffield that be would never have to go
to his Right lion. Friend Mr. Ward to maintain the navy in
all its efficiency—that the red artillery was to quench its mur-
derous battery, and he (Lord G. Bentinck) thought the Hon.
Member for Coventry had great reason to complain when he
found that amid all those promises 1200 men were to be added
to the army and 50G to the marines. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that he (the
Member for Lynn) would certainly consent to raise four millions
for Ireland, for the purpose of public works, which
grant 10,000,000/.
the Ministry had consented to
of English
to come out the
for the same purpose, but it was
had
were likely to be useless, but he should recollect that
thus aivancet was net to be expended
faction that the money to be advanced for rail-
in in sip Bonds, but that HonsG
Right Gentleman had cougratu-
ways in Ireland. The
slhose.4oin,ooocreasecwotf.,thebuttaxensowderitvheed from
purse. The Right Hon. Gentlemanniexpressed his sails.
tion, and had instituted a comparison
nd butter, and had stated that
on the the articles of coffee a
d 1845 •
43 an , increased from
tween the years
ltahteedartthioelons House
nosl
ro p
con-
-180,000 cwt., to 2,
1843 and 1845, the increase
consumption between
sumption a2mso7notoed
cast:
t0.)0,208070,00c0wt:wt.1,n
buctheebseetwethene
d the last the consumption had in
that year an creased to
Right Hod Gen h d
288,000 cwt. The . t. a been inclined to ascribe
to free trade and had
all this improvement asserted there was
increase of 250 per cent. on the tea returns. Between 1844
an increase of
and 1846 there had been anfrom 41,000,00011e5. of
tea to 4;i,000,0001bs. in the latter year. In hops there had
was from
been an increase of from 27,000,000 to 32,000,000 lbs. ; and
in malt there had been an increase, between 1843 to 1846,
from 35,000,000 to 4600,000 ; but then it should be recol-
lectedwas owing to the repeal of the duty on
that all this increase was to be ascribed to the great
increase of population. The Noble Lord then went through
the several amounts of the sugar and the silk duties, alleging
that in the former the increase was owing to the use of slave-
grown sugar, and that the increase in the duty on silks, from
foreign silks, to 25,9w7,ht had been productive of great distress to
" perished'H ar, e
ianr ,
the''j
wayt h e peo-
plethey the Suitalfields w
nha—anvtdche honest expression of the
weavers, with whom he had been placed in
He agreed with them, communication ; and yet who, notwithstanding their
own sufferings, bad intimated their intention of con-
tributing to the relief of the distress in Ireland.
The letter went on to state, " and had your Lordship possessed
night Honourable Gentleman'
htswhu ahebv reinsejeoen.f:
ttghh ei
Tanothfihioprseoeoawol v rranadnets rdr —ty.
from_h would
(oLemoxa power--(Laughter,
itarg
herhne: t9ohei retel
ta
g.
poor working classes of Spitalfields, for their unfortunate fellow-
em and
expenditure, but
the statement that in all this large
295,0001. had been expended to afford a certain' kind
efnutr,
at
tei
g upon people
pon o
thef
joefsty's employmentGovernmfor
political ne
felt deep regret at the smallness of the sum which Her Ma-
economy, had advanced. It would be a standard in the face of
Europe, that 250,030 Christian people had perished from
starvation in Ireland, while in a neighbouring country, under the
more paternal Government of the King of the French, whose
Government, he believed, had purchased nearly 200,00 of
quarters of grain to feed the people of that country. Not " a
man, or a woman, er a chile." —for, as the lang uie g of Mr.
Burke, in speaking of the scarcity of 1795, had been alluded
to by the Right Hon. Gentleman, he might be allowed to quote
him—yes, not " a man, woman, or child had died from starva-
tien i>l Frone."..(iiear, hear.) And was it vossihle that the

Irish people, when many of them had perished by thousands,
could abstain from comparing their condition and
their treatment with that which the people of
France met with at the hands of that Government. It was not
his intention to trouble the House at any length upon that occa-
sion; but, he must. Say that it did strike him as somewhat sur-
prising, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should come
down to the House and state that before long it was his inten-
tion to contract a loan, and that it was his intention to pay 31
per cent. W hy, 31 per cent. was not the interest which he
found very general at the present moment ; and he (Lord G.
Bentinck) could not help supposing that those who had money
to lend, hearing that the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed
to pay 3 per cent., would not accept less, although they might.
perhaps, have been disposed, if the amount had not been speci-
fied, to take a smaller rate.
Mr. SHAW said at the time the income-tax was imposed on
this country there was no machinery to carry out such a tax in
Ireland. But the Hon. Gentleman was the very man to-night
who, at such a time, would advise the imposition of such a tax
on Ireland. If the burden was an imperial one. he was at a loss
to know why Ireland should pay full half of it. If the public
works were stopped suddenly, he could not see what would
be done with the persons employed on those works at the pre-
sent moment. The small farmers, who were but Blighty re-
moved from the holding of a" cottier" tenement, paid as long
as they could their tenants in potatoes ; but if the public
works had not offered employment to the starving,
prewar mortality would have been the result.
The ca'amity had not been confined to Ireland, but bad
extended to parts of this country, and on the continent ; and
in such a state of things, it was incumbent upon this country
to come forward and aid those suffering in another part of the
kingdom. In referring to the statement of the Hon. Gentle-
man, with regard to the poor-law, he (Mr. Shaw) begged to
say that he was wholly opposed to an indiscriminate out. door
relief ; but as that was not the proper time to discuss a perma-
nent poor-law for Ireland, he would not address the House with
respect to it. He did not, however, object to giving out-door
relief during such a calamity as the present. He did not say
that every man in this country did as he ought to do; but this
he could say, that the resident landlords and absentees of
Ireland had subscribed to the funds being raised to the utmost
of their power.
Mr. ROEBUCK explained that what he meant to say, was
that the landowners of Ireland had exacerbated the evils of
that country. If an inquiry were granted into the matter, he
could prove that even the resident landowners had not con-
tributed to the fund for the relief to the poor, to the utmost of
their power. It was the gentlemen of the country who were
thus to blame, and not the farmers and other persons of Ireland
who were to blame. If Englishmen would join him, he would
drain the land of Ireland for the support of Ireland's poor.
The land of England had been mortgaged for the support of the
poor of Ireland ; and it was but right that the soil of Ireland
should be mortgaged for a similar purpose.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. GOULBURN would not then deal with an im-

proved poor-law for Ireland. Ile knew no question more
difficult to deal with than the one on which the Right lion.
Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had addressed
them. It was impossible, he thought, to lay a statement more
clearly before the House than he had dono—( Hear)—and the
office was one of great responsibility, inasmuch
as a gentleman in his position had to pursue impor-
tant measures for the present, and at the same time
to keep in view whatever exigencies might occur. The
Right Honourable Gentleman began his speech by a statement
of the expectations which he (Mr. Goulburn) held out on a
former occasion with respect to the public revenue of the year
which had just elapsed. He (Mr. Goulburn) said that he had
stated that he anticipated there would be a surplus next year
exceeding 776,0001. He confessed he had entertained sanguine
expectations that that surplus would have been greater ;
but as reductions of duty were made, it was impossible at-the
time to which he referred to form an accurate estimate of the
revenue which would be derived from the increased consumption,
yet although his expectations were of a large amount, he did
not estimate so large a sum as that which those reductions had
already produced. Thus, instead of being 776,000/., it would
be nearly 3,000,000/. The Hon. Gentleman made, he thought,
odtoun te statedeesr: rtboh r:
calculate
h ,vhuheepe
on,n,seal
was not
statedaveni
ona t
tne
increase
the araeseee he (
author
grownin
tllhier D.
os
sugar ugtgoahuarerl
waduertrrteei
alteration
had n
admitted
teitaneoudtsr
these
right
into
oee
this country, a great increase in the consumption took place.
The increase in free sugar had been 1,700,000 ewts., while the
increase in slave-grown sugar was only 400,000 cwts. ; so that
the increase of slave grown sugar had not increased to an ex-
tent to influence the revenue. Unquestionably the great in -
crease in the revenue was in consequence of the facilities
offered to manufactures, and to the cheapening of articles of
food, by which the comforts of the people had been materially
enhanced. The Noble Lord said the Hight Hon. Gentleman
had encouraged the introduction of the silk of other countries ;
but if they had admitted raw silk into this country, they had ex-
ported to other countries a great increase of manufactured silk.
From the returns, it appears, that in 1844, the quantity of raw
silk imported was 3,600,000 lbs. ; in 1845, 3,700,000 lbs. ; in
1846, 3,900,0001b5. ; showing a large increase in quantity over
the antecedent years of the raw material imported. With re-
spect to the experts, he might state, that silks to the value of
692,000/. was exported in 1844 ; in 1845, to the value of
700,000/. ; in 1846, to the value of 768,000/. ; being an in-
crease of 68,000/. of the manufactured silk exported in the pre-
ceding year ; showing clearly that, however large the quantity
of raw silk imported into these countries, the export trade has
received a corresponding activity. That the manu-
facturers had suffered largely from the high prices of
provisions, be regretted to say he could not doubt,
But the Noble Lord further went on to say that it was net
merely on the articles of silk that consumption had increased.
He told them that an increase had taken place on malt and
hops and other articles on which there had been a reduction.
Why he admitted that such was the case—that was part of the
advantage derived from that very system which he (Mr. Goul-
burn) had the honour of introducing to that House, which gave
increased power to the industrious to purchase, by reducing
the taxes on the raw material. But he told us that it was
owing to a system of railways introduced into the country, and
a large sum: of money expended mostly under the direction of
the Hon. Member for Sunderland, but he ought to have re-
collected that the expenditure on railways has not been con-
fined to the last year, but to some years antecedent, years in
which there had been the greatest deficiency in the revenue.
He found that the London and Birmingham had expended
8,000,0001. ; that the Grand Junction had expended 4,500,000!.;
the Brighton 2,800,000/. He did not wish to disparage
the effects which railways had upon the country, but he said
that it was not just or accordant with the fact to ascribe to
them the augmentation which had taken place in the revenue,
which had arisen from a reductic n on the articles of prime
necessity. The Hon. Member for Montrose considered that
the Government should have raised a loan in order to relieve

_.„.
this was exclusive of the charge for collection,
and the charges on the debt. This, however, was not perhaps
a fair representation, but taking 1835: to 1846 there had been
an increase of five millions in the year's expenses. le3o was
before the Whi,s came into power, who made a considerable
reduction ; still, at the end of 1846, there had been an increase
of five millions in the year's expenses:—(Hear, hear.)
He thought that when they had before them the prospect of
next year increasing the burdens of the country ; he did think
—perhaps it might be impertinent in him to tell the Heuse so—
that it would be better for it to change its conduct, rather than
impede Ministers, and cause their country to bleed at every
pore:
~,,, _ _

Mr. MUNTZ said that it had been alleged that they ought
not to increase the taxes at that period, but he did not see the
force of this reasoning. Why should they not have an in-
creased property-tax? He thought it would be better to have
'heir difficulties placed before them, instead of deferring the
consideration of them to a future year. He was in favour of
moderate taxation, as opposed to the measure introduced that
night, and would give his vote for it accordingly.
Mr. B. ESCOTT thought that if the Members of that
House went back to their constituents, the better it would be
for the country. The Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn, had
given the true solution of the policy of the Government, when
he said that this was the last session of the present Parliament.
But the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Portsmouth,
had told them very significantly that the question of finance
must be considered in Parliament next year. He certainly
thought this his Right Hon. Friend, the able Chancellor of the
Exchequer would (as he was sure the Speaker who had last
spoken, or the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn could) have
introduced a better measure than that he had presented them.
He thought that when this enormous sum was wanted, a con-
siderable reduction of taxation should have taken place.
Mr. EWART was opposed to the principle of the resolution
introduced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Those who
looked to the interest of the country, must sooner or later turn
their attention to the principles of direct taxation.
Mr. G. BANKES was glad to see that the measure of the
Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn, was receiving a greater
degree of favour in that House now, than it did when it was
first brought forward. The Noble Lord had proposed that
they should have some return for this outlay of money,
whereas, now it was proposed that they should
advance the large sum of 8,000,000/., without the
least prospect of a return. The Hon. Member for Winchester
was pleased to say that he did not receive the Noble Lord's
proposition when it was firs) propounded, with the same favour
that he did now. No wonder. The Hen. Member, it was
quite clear, up till now had not taken the trouble to under-
stand it. His Noble Friend proposed, not that the money, but
the credit of England, should be brought to the aid
of the people of Ireland ; but Government proposed
they should give, not the credit, but the money of
England, without a chance of a return.—(Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth has asked his
Noble Friend what was the credit of a country. He would
tell the Right Hon. Baronet, in the words of a distinguished
predecessor of his own, Mr. Pitt said "the credit of a country
was not its storms, but its sunshine, which gives life and spirit
to everything around without injuring the principle from which
it emanates." His Noble Friend had endeavoured to throw
the sunshine of the credit of England over the plains
of Ireland, and he did not envy the man who could
throw his shadow in its way. Ireland had a great
claim upon this eountry, and England ought not to
shrink from redeeming the pledges of Mr. Pitt, given at the
time of the union. The time had now come when these pro-
mises ought to be fulfilled, and the only way to do so, was to
fertilise the plains of Ireland, through the medium of English
credit.

Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL begged leave to remind the Hon.
Gentleman who had just sat down, that the proposition of the
Noble Lord would not have been a substitute for the eigbt mil-
lions proposed to be advanced by the Government. The money
advanced under the Noble Lord's Bill would have been in ad-
dition to the eight millions. When the Honourable Gentle-
tleman said that he did not think any portions of
the eight millions would be returned, it was his duty as an
Irish representative to tell him that a portion of it, if not the
whole, which it was proposed to advance as a loan, would be
paid, and punctually paid--at all eveats, were it not, he should
be prepared to support the application of the principles of di-
rect taxation to Ireland.—( Hear, hear). Much credit was
due to the Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn, for having
mooted the principle of assisting Irish railways with English
capital, and while he did not agree with the details of the
Noble Lord's plan, he hoped shortly to see Government
introduce a measure based upon the same principle.
He was gratified to witness the good feoling on the part of
Hon. Members of that House towards Ireland. He was also
gratified to hear the Hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Roebuck)
speak in such terms of approbation of the course of conduct
pursued by the Government towards Ireland, and seemingly
to forget so much of those great powers of reason by which he
sometimes addressed the House, and under cover of which he

(Mr. Roebuck) sometimes appealed to the prejudices of Hon.
Members.

Mr. FINCH thought that the present unfavourable state of
the circulation of the country, and the high rate of interest,
arose from the deficiency of a well-regulated system of paper
money. If such a system were in existence, the Chancellor
of the Exchequer would be able to save the sum of 800,C001.
in the loan he was about to contract. He wished to be under-
stood with reference to the proposed grant for the relief of
Ireland, that if the sum of eight, ten, or twenty millions were
to be instrumental in raising the moral and physical condition
of the people of Ireland, he should say that the money would
be well spent.—The resolution was then agreed to.

The House resumed.
Mr. GREENE brought up the report which was ordered
to be reported to-morrow.
LABOURING POOR (IRELAND) BILL.
The report upon this Bill was brought up, and the Bill
ordered to be read a third time to-morrow (Wednesday).
LANDED PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL.
This Bill went through Committee, and the report was
ordered to be received to-marrow.