The Sun.
London, England, 1841-04-24 00:00:00

TI114.: SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, APRIL 24, 1841.

seuted to postpone the further progress of the Irish Arms
Bill t:11 next week.
On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL, the House, at
its rising, was ordered to stand adjourned till Monday.
The ATTORN EY-GENERAL moved that the House
resolve itself into Committee on the Administration cf
Justic.: Bill (No. 1).
Sir WM. FOLLETT presented a petition from the
Court-keeper of the Court of Exchequer, setting forth that
he had purchased hie place in the usual manner ; that the
Bill would very much reduce his fees, and that the com-
pensation clause to be proposed by the Chancellor of the
Exchequer did not provide for his case. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman gave notice that unhss that clause
were much altered, he would feel it his duty to take the
sense of the House upon it.
The House then went into Committee.
Clauses 1 to 6 were agreed to, with some verbal amend-
ments.
On clause 7 being proposed,
Sir E. SUGDEN said the effect of this clause would be
to trensfer to the Accountant-General-of the Court of
Chancery all funds in the hands of the Accountant-W,neral of
the Court of Exchequer. The effect of this would be
to greatly increase the emoluments of the Accountant-
G,ieral of the Court of Chancery, which were already
sufficiently large. The funds in the Court of Exchequer
were but a thirt]eih or fortieth part of those in the Court
of Cnancery. The proposed appointment cf one or two
Judges would in like manner iner else the income of the Ac-
countant-General, because the same business would be done
in a shorter time. He was not awere what that income was,
and he called upon the Attorney-General or the Noble Lord
to inform the Homo what would be the probable amount
~f the income of the Accountant-General of the Court of
Chancery when these additional sums were added to it.
He would be exceecingly sorry to have it supposed that he
said this from a feeling of disrespect to the Learned
Gentleman who filled the office; but he thought the
House should be informed of the probable increase if this
clause were passed.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he was not able
to state what would be the exact amount of salary ; in his
opinion the sum at present received was small considering
the important duties to be fulfilled.
After a few words from Sir E. SUGDEN, strangers
were ordered to withdraw, but no division took place.
On our return to the gallery we found
Sir E. SUGDEN on his legs. He said he was anxious
to re-state his arguments for the benefit of the Hon.
Members who were not present when he made his objec-
tions to the clause upon a former occasion. He asked fur
a postponement of the clause. so that he might have cer-
tain returns laid before the House.
Mr. GOULB URN, on the part of the publ,c, said the
morey ought to be applied to compensate the officers of
the Exchequer, in the place of giving it in the shape of in-
creased fees to the officer in the Court of Chancery.
Lord J. RUSSELL defended the clause as being es-
sential to the well working of the Bill.
The SOLICITOR. GEN E RA L supported the clause.
The alteration suggested by the Right Hon Gentleman
would be introducing into it that which would be wholly
irrelevant.
Mr. CHARLES BULLER thought the House and
the country were much indebted for the suggestion of the
Right Hon. Member for Ripon, which it was his intention
to support. This might be an antiquated way of paying
the Accountant-General, but it ought to be abolished.
Mr. O'CONNELL said, they were going to a division
on a clause that every one agreed to, for all agreed
that these funds should be transferred.—( Hea-, hear.)
How could they prevent the Accountant-General from
sharing the profits of the brokers ? If he did not, the
brokers would get the whole of it. Perhaps it might be
better to have a broker for the Court of Chancery ; but
if so there should be a clause for that purpose.
After a few words from Mr. HUME,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he was not before swore
of the way in which the Accountant-General was paid.
He thought it might be necessary to introduce a clause on
the subject

the Rieht Hon. Gentleman, would he not rather take
8,0001. than suffer it to go into Chancery? It was a mean
and pitiful economy to refuse justice because we would not
pay a sufficient number of Judges, especially when the
whole profession declared that this measure was necessary
for the due administration of justice.—( Hear, hear.)
Sir E. SUG DEN said that cases of hardship similar
to those cited by the Hon. Member were unavoidable.
The Hon. Member had asked, what he would do if
a legacy of 10,000/. were left him, and he were
told that unless he would tike 8,000/. it should
be thrown into Chancery ? Why he would do thie
He would take the 8,000/. and then file a supple-
mental bill for the remainder—( Laughter)—and if his
claim were just it would be awarded to him with costs. It
was absurd to abolish the Court of Exchequer to establish
another Court that was to be temporary, for such Court
would soon become permanent. The Government would
commit a gross breach of their public duty if they did not
abolish the Court of Review, and transfer the Bankruptcy
business to one of the Courts of Chancery. The Courts
would all be sitting together, very near each (tiler, so that
the bar would be running from one to another. He had
rai,ed his voice against the clause—he had warned the
Go, crnment, and thought he had done his duty, and would
nit divide the House upon the clause.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL would only refer to
the evidence of Mr. Baron Alderson, wherein he said diy-
tinctly that if the Equity Exchequer was to be retained,
it would require a Baron to give it his whole attention.
That would require the appointment of another Baron.
Was it not better, then, to call him a Vice-Chancellor, and
so have them all sitting together ?
Mr. J. STEWART could inform the House that al-
though Lord Brougham had formerly thought that the ap-
pointment of one Judge would be enough, only a fortnight
before the Noble Lord left England he told him that he
was now firmly of opinion that the appointment of two was
now necessary. He was of the same opinion, because at
present there was a delay of three years beta eetr the set-
ting down of a cause and its hearing—a delay which in-
duced many persons to allow themselves to be robbed ra-
ther than incur the expense, and trouble, and delay of a
Chancery suit.
Mr. WAKLEY said, those who were acquainted with
our law courts were giving a very pretty exposition of their
iniquities—ho hoped it would be well digested by the pub-
lic. He was afraid that, by increasing the number of
Judges, they would also increase the number of barristers,
and while they were allowed to interpose such technicali-
ties between suitors as now filled the Courts every day,
they would never have any actual legal reform.
The clause was then ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 20, 21, 22, 23, and 24 were agreed to.
On clause 25 being proposed,
Mr. HAYTER complained of the alteration made in
the status of the Vice-Chancellor.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the office of
Chief Baron was a very high, an honourable, and an
ancient office; and he had teen of opinion that the Vice-
Chancellor's ought to take precedence immediately after
him.
Mr. HAYTER was net satisfied wi.h the explanation,
and would take another opportunity of attempting to alter
the clause.
Clauses up to 28 were agreed to.
Clause 29 having been proposed,
Mr. AGLIONBY begged to ask whether there was
any intention to make any alteration in the Six Clerks
Office?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL was not aware of any
intention to introduce a Bill for such a reform, but he be-
.lieved, indeed he knew, that the Lord-Chancellor was
engaged with some eminent lawyers in devising regula-
tions which would prove a great benefit to every su:tor in
the Court.
Mr. AGLIONBY was aware that the public had much
confidence in the intentions of the Lord Chancellor, and he
hoped they would not be disappointed.
Clauses up to 34 were agreed to without observation.
The clause 35 being read,
Mr. PE MBE RT 0 N moved that the salary of the new
Vice-Chancellor be 6,0001. per annum instead of 5,0001.

Sic E. SUGDEN said such being the case, he sues.o
withdraw his amendment. Lord J. RUSSELL objected to any increase of the
The clause, with several others, was then agreed to. amount roosed in the clause. The salary of the new
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the clause now Judge asps fixed at 5.000/., the ..same as was at present
under the consideration of the Committee related to the paid to the Puisne Juoges.
appointment of the new Judges, and the question was, Sir E. SUGDEN thought there was no comparison
what number the blank should be filled up with. He pro- between the labours of a Puisr,e Judge and those whieb
posed that the blank should be filled up with the word were to be performed by the new Judges. It appeared
" two;" for the opinion of all the witnesses examines to him that they would not get men of the necessary stand-
before the Committee of the House of Lords was that ing and talent at the bar to undertake the office for the
two new Judges at least would be required, and some of remuneration they now proposed.
them—among others, his Honour the Vice-Chancellor— Mr. HUME hoped the Noble Lord would not attend to
did not think that two would be sufficient. He need not the suggestion of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite.—
remind the Committee of the large amount of arrears at ( A laugh.) It was only a very short time since the Right
present existing in the Court of Chancery, and the delay lion. Gentleman had been reproaching the Government,
experienced by suitors in the hearing of their causes. and very justly, with their extravagance, and now he
Another general complaint was the vast expense attending wished them to add to that extravagant expenditure. The
these suits, and it Ras well known that unless the sum to Rtnt lion. Gentleman caaled 5,000/. a paltry sum. Why
be recovered exceeded a thousand pounds it was not a very 5,000/. per annum ought to buy the services of any man,
lucrative speculatiou to embark in a Chancery suit. From or at least of any lawyer.—( Laughter.) The Committee
the arrangements at present in contemplation there would should bear in mind the salary of the President of the
be such a reduction of expense and such an increase of United States was only 5,000/.
expedition that suits for much smaller sums would be freely The Gallery was then cleared for a division, but none
undertaken. er took place ; and 5,0001. was inserted, and the clause
Mr. HUME thought one Judge amply sufficient, and :greed to.
he understood that such was was the opinion of Lord On our return to the Gallery, we found Lord J. RUS-
Brougham. SELL, in answer to Sir E. Sugden, stating that he did
Sir E. SUGDEN objected to the clause, not on ac- net think it would be advisable, by any new law, to pre-
count of the appointment of new Judges, but on account vent Masters in Chancery from sitting in Parliament.
of the expense which could be entailed by the establish- Mr. HUME thought the Masters in Chancery, being
merit of Courts. If the clause should pass there would he in the position of Judges, ought not to be allowed to sit
no less than five Courts cf Equity, whilst there were only in Parliament. He objected to such an arrangement upon
three Courts of Law. Such a state of things must lead principle. He wished to know whether it was intended
to confusion. He ( Sir Edward Sugden) had before t i introduce any clause to prevent the successor of the
alluded to the defective state of the Appellate Courts of Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Richards) from sit-
this country. His proposal for amending the system was, tiog in Parliament ?
however, opposed by the Government. The opinion of the Mr. LYNCH thought the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
Vice- Chancellor bed been cited in favour of this clause. man could sit in Parliament as long as he thought proper.
If he rightly understood that opinion of the Vice-Chan- --(A laugh.) The right of the Hon. and Learned Gen..
cellor, it was that one extra Judge would be sufficient. tleman had been already defined and acknowledged.
Even if a necessity tor two did exist would it not be better Sir W. FOLLETT would certainly objet to any
first to appoint one in order to see whether the system clause to restrain Masters in Chancery from sitting in
worked beneficially? But in his opinion there would not Parliament.
bo found sufficient business to c ceupy two additional Mr. E W ART supported the clause.
Judges, and nothing could be more injurious to the prac- Mr. C. BULLER said that his only objection to the
tice of the bar than such a state of thine's. speech of the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Exeter,
Mr. L YNCH said be certainly differed' from the Right was that it bad not been delivered last Session, when the
Hon. Gentleman in one observation which he had made. motion was made with respect to the Learned Judge of the
The Hoe. and Learned Gentleman appeared to think that Admiralty Court.--( Hear, hear.)
nothing could be more injurious than a Court without Sir W. FOLLETT replied that he was not present on
business. In his (Mr. Lynch a) opinion, a still greater that occasion, but had be been in the House he should
evil was, that of suitors without Courts.—( Hear, hear.) certainly have voted against the motion.—( Hear, hear.)
He had really thought, after the evidence which had been After a few words from Mr. HUME, the clause was
given before the Committee, it was impossible that any one agreed to.
could deny the necessity for this addilional appointment. Oa clause 52 being proposed,
Mr. Wigram had stated that 18 per cent. was the Mr. HUME said be would take this opportunity of
full amount of causes decided by the Judges_ suggesting to the Noble Lord the propriety i f laying
the remainder were settled by compromise. Numbers of before the House an annual account of the Suitor's Fund.
causes were compromised after being set down. This The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the Hon. Gen-
would never happen if there were not great difficulty in den= might easily attain his object by meting for the
getting them heard. The Judges were now worked be- return. He had no objection to lay before the House an
yond their strength; it was impossible that they could annual account of the fund in question.
get otherwise through the business which came before The clause was then agreed to.
them for adjudication, and was continually accumulating. Clause 56 was struck out, and a new one in lieu thereof
The number of cases which came on for hearing in the proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, empower-
Court of Chancery, had considerably increased since the ing the Lord Chief Baron and the Treasury to grant corn-
time cf Lord Hardwick, when there were no appeals from pensation to officers of the Court of Exchequer, super-
Ireland. Such was the difficulty of obtaining a hearing seded by the present Bill, who held their offices prior to
under the present system, that nu suitor would set down 14th of March, 1840, and who the Right Hon. Gentle-
his cause for hearing if there were any other means by man stated had paid money for their situations.
which he could effect his purpose. There were at pre- Sir W..FOLLETT opposed the clause. He thought
sent fifteen common law Judges, at an expense of 75,000/. the officers of the Court of Exchequer were entitled to
a_year. The whole expense of the five equity Judges compensation. It would be a most unfair thing to intro-
would not amount to more than 24,000/. and the business duce a precedent of this kind in the present instance. He
which they transacted was the most substantial and im- hoped the House would feel this was a case without preen-
portant to the country generally. On these grounds he dent, and that the House would deal here as in every similar
trusted the House would agree to the clause. case in which persons were deprived of compensation by
Mr. PEMBERTON said he was not disposed to op- the Legislature. It would be most unwise to introduce
pose the clause then before the House. He must, how- such a precedent as it would excite opposition ;to Bills of
ever, remind the House, that when a similar Bi.l was this nature. He should therefore move that the date
brought down from the House of Lords at the close of should be omitted in the clause, and that all officers in
last Session, it had met with opposition from the Govern- the Court of Exchequer, affected by the Act should be
ment. In stating his objections to that Bill, the Noble entitled to compensation.
Lord had pronounced a severe censure upon the Judicial The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
Committee of the Privy Council. He had stated that, in
would be a dangerous principle to adopt, that any person
his opinion, the mode in which justice was administered in possession of an office at the passing of an Act affecn.
was highly discreditable, and a disgrace to this country. ing it, should be as much entitled to compensation as any
Notwithstanding this censure, nothing had been proposed person who had held that office for 40 or 50 years. He
with regard to that Court ; and he ( Mr. Pemberton)
had nc personal feelings on the subject one way or the
thought that this circumstance afforded legitimate ground other. He only wished the question to be settled, and
of complaint. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then
proceeded to state the grounds upon which he should sup- whatever might beetle decision of the House, ho should be
satisfied.
port the clause for the appointment of new Judges—
Mr. GOULBURN said he objected to this proposition
namely, the great arrears of business in the Courts of
Equity. In the Rolls Court there were at the present upon the principle it involved. 'P here was a suspicion of
time one hundred and thirty-nine causes set down for collusion in this case, and a person appointed to a necessary
hearing. The cause now before the Court was set down in office was not to be precluded from the rights and emolu-
July last. There were twenty parties to it. If any merits attached to it, because in some antecedent session no-
one of those parties had happened to die in the interim, tice hat been given that a Bill would be brought in by
the greatest delay must have occurred. In the Vice: which the office would be abolished.
Chancellor's Court there was a still greater arrear. The Sir ROBERT PEEL also objected to the clause. The
entire number of causes set down for hearing was 619. persons who had purchased their offices in the Court of Ex-
He would not, perhaps, have thought that a sufficient chequer had a vested right in them, and were therefore
compensation if they were abolished.
ground for the appointment of two new Judges (for he entitled to
fully agreed with his Right Hon. Friend in his objections After a few words from the CHANCELLOR of the
to the establishment of new Courts), were it not that by EXCHEQUER,
Lord J. RUSSELL supported the clause. It was a
a Bill introduced last Session, power had been given to
the Lord Chancellor to make all neceasary alterations in question on which different opinions might naturally be
the practice of that Court ; and that men of all shades of entertained, but be quite agreed in that taken by the
politics, some of them at a personal sacrifice of emolu-
ment, had been engaged for months in framing regula Mr. PEMBERTON did not think that any barrister of
tions which would have the effect of facilitating the juris- any years' standing would have been got to accept the office
diction, and be of the greatest advantage to the suitors. upon the terms indicated by the Right Hon. the Chancel-
This, in his opinion, would remove the objections which for of the Exchequer. If the clause were not amended
bad been stated by his Right Hon. Friend. now, it must lead to the throwing out of the measure.
Mr. C. BULLER said be looked upon this not simply The other House could not make any alteration in a money
as a measure beneficial of itself, but also as the first of a clause, and they most undoubtedly would not agree to
series of amendments in the mode of administering the the Bill if it contained the claus as n
it ow stood.
laws of this country. In the Courts of Common Law it They were not dealing with the Chief Baron in the same
was commonly only a small part of a man's property that manner as they did by the Lord Chancellor, when they
was interested, hut in the Court of Chancery it was not abolished the patronage of that office ; if:they persisted in
uncommon that his whole property was waiting the deci- the clause, most undoubtedly the gentleman who now filled
sion of the Court. A case had recently occurred in the the office would fill it for yet one year and probably many
Rolls Court which remarkably exhibited the delays in the more.
Court of Chancery. He alluded to the case of Day v. Lord J. RUSSELL said the House of-Commons could
Croft. This was the case of a person who recently died, net agree in the doctrine laid down by the Hon. and
leaving a property of 400,0001. His widow and daughters Learned Member ;if they could, then it would amount to a
wi re each left an annuity of 3,000/. a year. lii cense- I full transfer to the House of Lords of all power to grant
quence i f some litigation, in which they had no concern, a compensation; it was telling them that they were to
from these annuities they could not raise a sixpence. In have no great remedial measures unless they gave up
their power of granting and regulating compensation.—
consequence they had peen obliged to borrow 12,000/. and
insure their lives. Thus, because the Court would not decide (Cheers.) That was a course which he was not prepared
their claims, the property of these ladies was being to take.
(niter ed away, and they were obliged to raise money atithe Sir E. SUGDEN said the Noble Lord had entirely
forgotten what was the course of proceedings with respect
most extravagant rate. A still harder case was that of a
to this Bill during the last session. The House of Lords
poor relative of Mr. Day, who had been left a legacy of
last year consented to abolish the Court of Exchequer with-
-401. a 3 ear, which, from the same cause, he had been
out inserting any compensation clauses.
obliged to mortgage. The Right Hon. Gentleman
Mr. J. JERVIS would vote for the amendment,
seemed much afraid that Judges should be appointed who ground that the Chief Baron had a right to
would have nothieg to do, but this was somewhat incon- ion the
make the appointment, therefore the person appointed
sistent with his conduct in 1830, when he proposed to '
, had a right to compensation.
create additional Judges. Supposing this system of the Mr. C. BULLER. also supported the amendment,
legal profession were adopted in other professions, and the
They ought to reward liberally those whose appointments
surgeons in hospitals were accustomed to have an arrear ()cf. :
were ablished by the progress of Reform. The officers of
patients, he doubted not that at the end of the year it would ,
the Exchequer bad acted nobly in respect to this Bill, and
be found they had disposed of a great number of panic, ts.
Mr. Scarlet was entitled to compensation, because Lord
The present system occasioned a compromise of sixty out
of every I..ur.;!leA stitF,.•iiud it was Low a common threat Abineer had a clear right to take advantage of what had
in the City to throw ivicase inte Chancery unless a corn- befallen him.
promise were agreed to," If a legacy of 10,000/, were left I Mr. FIUME recapitulated the circumstances under

which Mr. Scarlett was appointed, and contended that he
was clearly not entitled to any compensation.
Mr. CRESSWE LL supported the amendment on the
same ground as the Hon. Member for Chester.
Al-. HAWES hoped the Noble Lord would persevere
in dividing the Committee in support of the clause.
Mr. V. STUART said he believed Mr. Scarlett had
given up a situation of 5001. per annum to take the ap-

pointment in question.
Major SCA IMETT said the gentleman in question
had given up the situations of Counsel to the Mint and the

Pos.:office, and was certainly entiled to compensation.
Tile CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
p'rh ips it might be as well to leAve a discretionary power
Kith the Treasury, to grant a limited compensation to

•
Mr. Searlett.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
Commi!tre divided, when there appeared—
For the clause
For the amendment 73
Majority for the amendment
Mr. El A YTE It said, as the clause then stood, a corn-
pens..tion amounting to three.feurths of the salary and
emoluments was to be granted to the party during his life.
Now, it night happen that, in the case of Mr. Searlett he
might be cal ed to the Howe of Lords, and in such a case
it would be proper that the compensation should cease.
He proposed, therefore, that the time during which the
compensation than to be paid be diicretiorary wi►h the

. .
Trcasury.
Mier some discussion the amendment was withdrawn.

The house then resumed:the ChAirman reported pro-
gress, and asked leave to sit again on Monday next.

THE HULKS.
Lord MAHON begged to put a question to the Noble
Lord the Secretary of State for the Colonies relative to
the number of convicts confined in the Hulks. The House
would recollect that on the 231 March last a resolution

was passed by the Huuse of Commons on that subject, and
he ts ished to know from the Noble Lord whither the Go-

vernment had taken any steps for the purpose of carrying
that resolution into effec.. He need nc,t remind the
House that the number of convicts had increased since
the Ist of February, 1838, from 1,700 to upwards of 3,000,
and he wishel to know whether it was intended to reduce
that numLer?

Lord J. RUSSELL haying on the occasion referred to
agreed with the Noble Lord twit the large increase in the
number of convicts was detrimental to them, did not at-

tempt to meet the resolution with a direct negative, but
had moved the previous question, and in a rather thinly
attended House, the Noble Lord bad succeded in carry-
ing his motion. The Noble Lord in his speech on a
former occasion, had intimated that he thought it desirable
ti bound a new settlement in New Holland, expressly for
the purpose of transportation. That opinion did not ac-
cord w,th the Report of the Transportation Committee ;
they had given so such recommendation, and the Govern_
mint would feel the strongest repugnance to such a
cow se. There were three modes of punishment which
should come under consideration in discussing this ques-
tion—transportation, confinement in the hulks, and con-
finement in penitentiaries. The first had been condemned
by the Committee; with regard to confinement in
penitentiaries, it was impossible to carry that to
any extent, until buildings for that purpose
had been erected. It seemed necessary therefore fur the
present to increase the number in the hulks. If, however,
the Noble Lord would bring forward a definite motion,
for the purpose of improving the system f transportation,
he would be orepa- ed to give it an attentive consideration.
Lord NI AH 0 N said he understood, then, that, there was
to be no alteration in the present system.
Lord J. RUSSELL said it appeared to him desirable
that a certain number, smaller than hitherto, should still
con inue to be transported, and that an increased number
should be confined in the hulks, until a Letter system of
prison discipline should have been devised. lie could not
express his siews more definitively at present.
Sir R PE EL said the subject before the House,
though always of great importance, was peculiarly so at a
time when there was a great disposition prevailing to
abolish capital punishments. At such a time it was de-
sirable that too system of punishment which was retained
should be the most effective that could be adopted. In
the Committee on this subject, of which he ( Sir R. Peel)
was a•member, it was proposed entirely and immediately
t t abolish the present system of transportation. In that
proporul he did not concur, 'believing that in the present
state of the country it would be attended with injurious
off cte. He hoped her Mejehty's Government, in any
measures which they might propose on this subject,
would consider the possibility of combining severe
punishment with expatriation from this country.
Transportation was a just and legitimate punish-
meat, and was open to none of those objections
which applied to capital punishment. In his ( Sir
R. Peel's opinion, if capital punishment was abolished,
it would be necessary, in some form or other, to continue
transportation. He had been as sensible as any of the
Committee of the evils existing in New South Wales, and
he had therefore acceded to the resolution for moderating
and restricting transportation. Still be was afraid if
the Noble Lord relied upon the Hulks or the
Penitentiary as a substitute for capital punish-
ments he would be disappointed in the result.
He thought two evils were to be apprehended from the
abolition of transportation, either that the criminal popula-
tion of this country would be led to entertain hopes that
by an appeal to the Government, through the intervention
of their friends, they would obtain a release, or that being
on the spot they would effect their escape. Besides ob-
jections would be raised to the punishment of the Peni-
tentiary even under the soundest discipline. If ten or
twelve eases of alienation of intsllect should arise from the
system, it would meet with great objections. Neither
did he place any reliance upon the reforming effect of
the best system of prison discipline that could be adopted.
Prisoners might, in the hope of obtaining indulgence,
behave with decorum during their confinement ; and yet
from their inability to obtain employment in consequence
of their imprisonment, they might afterwards return to
their old practices. That was in his opinion a strong ob-
jection to the penitentiary system. Of the 4,000 persons
transported annually, it was impossible but that the majo-
rity should labour under this difficulty. If some system
of transportation could be devised which would obviate
the evils existing in New South Wales, and pre-
vent the convicts from labouring under this disad-
ventage, that, in his opinion, would most effectually meet
the Mfficulties that had been suggested.
Lord J. RUSSELL rose to explain. Ho thought in
considering this question they were bound not only to
have regard to the immediate effects upon our own country,
but also upon the social condition of the colony itself.
Far too great a number of convicts, as it appeared to him,
had been sent to our penal settlements. His object was
to reserve transportation in certain cases, and in others,
when the crime was not of an aggravated nature, to apply
another system. They were not justified in peopling colo-
nies with persons who had been banished for their crimes.
Ile thought that imprisonment might be usefully extended
to five years.
Mr. HAWES supported the clause.
Mr. WAKLEY hoped the Noble Lord would not be
deluded by the accounts he had received from America as
to long imprisonments. The most lamentable aberration
cf rritiO. had constantly resulted from that system.
Colonel SIBTHORP wished to ask the Noble Lord
wl-ether it was his intention to proceed with the Miscel-
laneous Estimates?
Lord J. RUSSELL replied that the subject would be
postponed for some time.
On the House going into Committee on Supply,
21,626 3201. was voted to pay off the Exchequer bills.
The House then went into Committee on the Parlia-
mentary Voters (Ireland) Bill.
The Court of Chancery (Ireland) Bill was read a second
time.

The Banking Copartnership Bill then went through
Committee.
Mr. HA WE S moved for a return of the number of in-
stances cf corporeal punishments inflicted on a Sunday, in
the British army, during the last ten years.—Agreed to.
Mr. HAWES moved for a return showing the quantity
and various kinds of fresh fruit imported in each year,
trom the year 1835 to the end of the year 1840, with the
rates of duty chargeable, and the amount of revenue re-
ceived thereon. The Hon. Member also moved for re-
turns of the produce of the additional duty of 5 per cent
on each article subject to excise duty for the year ending
the sth April, 1841. Of the produce of the additional
duty of 5 per cent. on all articles subject to customs duty,
and specifying the amount of such duty received on each
of the twenty principal articles subject to customs duty for
the year ending sth April, 1841. Also, the produce of
the additional duty of 10 per cent. on each article subject
to assessed taxes, from the year ending sth April, 1841.
—Agreed to.
The House then adjourned at a Quarter to One o'Clock.

STEAM-BOATS TO BOULOGNE.—Weare happy
to say that a complele change has been effected in the
steam-boats belonging to the General Steam Navigation
Company that frequent this port. In the course of last
year we felt it to be our duty, not only to the public, but
to the Company, to call constant attention to the time oc-
cupied in the passage from London to this town. We are
happy to say the Company have taken the hint. During
the last two months the Magnet and Harlequin have un-
dergone a thorough cleansing and repairing for the
approaching season, which is expected to be a busy
one, and which has commenced so auspiciously. The
result has been nearly a realisation of what we stated
should be the average passage from London. The Magnet,
under the quiet and steady management of Captain Stock,
made her passage, on the 10th instant, in nine hours
and fifty minutes. The Harlequin, Captain King, with
82 passengers, and a la-ge freight, arrived on the 15th sin
ten hours and fifteen minutes. This is very different to
twelve and fourteen hours. We trust this pace will be
m4intained, and that the patronage the Company will re-
ceive will prove to them, that a generous public are always
alive to every attempt to add to their crimforts and expe-
-1 dite their desires. One thing now remains, to reduce the
fares to summer prices, and content will be general.
Boulogne Gazette.
PRETTY JESTING.—The person on whom my
memory dwells with most pleasure, is the 'Marchioness de
Bouffiers. Notwithstanding the tender compact con-
cluded between the Marquise and his Majesty, it was said
that the lady had not entirely broken that which existed
between her and M. de la Galissiere: Stanislas was aware
of this, and sometimes showed little symptoms of jealousy ;
but being of an indulgent disposition, he avenged himself
merely by making jokes, which he flattered himself were
very good. Indeed the King piqued himself so much on
his talent in this way, that I verily believe he would net
willingly have been deprived of this ever-ready subject for
his own mnfacyClings, for the sake of g
thisa gave
subject,unrestrained
app
apparently ;
d
justiceis jets,
to all parties con-
hc
violence nßmceeu
stttoh
gratify-
inganeehtiso
yhains
ty. humorous,
Hw
o everin n salliesohne
beihs as
confessed that the Marchioness fur-
nished him with frequent opportunities of exercising his
wit.--Theodore Hook's French Stage.
Barbadoes papers to the 12th of March speak
favourably of agricultural matters in that island. There
had been a succession of refreshing showers which proved
a great relief to the planters, and would be highly bene-
ficial to the young canes for 1842.

CHARTER-HOUSE SQUARE.

ORIGIN OF CHARTISM.
In a letter lately published by Mr. Hetherington, on
Chartism, be says :
The Working Men's Association was formed in
June, 1836, and was composed of nearly all the active
men in the metropolis, who had advocated the princi-
ples of the. Charter for many years before the Asso-
oiation was formed. Early in 1837 the Working
Men's Association called a public meeting at the Crown
and Anchor, Strand. The room was crammed to over-
flowing. It was computed, also, that two or three
thousand persons were unable to obtain admission. The
resolutions and petition were all moved and supported
by working men ; and the petition, which was drawn
up by Mr. Lovett, contained all the principles em-
bodied in the Charter—Universal Suffrage, Annual
Parliaments, Vote by Ballot, No Property Qualification,
Equal Electoral Districts, and Payment of Members.
This petition was unanimously adopted by the meet-
ing, and received between two and three thousand
s'gnatures on the same night, from persons who
attended the meeting. The Association next deter-
mined to test the Members of Parliament who professed
Liberal principles, by calling a meeting at the British
Coffee-house, Cockspur-street, of as many of them as
the Association could induce to attend, to discuss the
propriety of some one or more of them bringing
in a Bill embodying all the objects of the petition. Nine
or ten Members of Parliament attended, among whom
were Col. Thompson, Mr. Hume, Mr. C. Hindlev, Mr.
O'Connell, Mr. Sharman Crawford, and Mr. Hawes.
Thu discussion Listed t..vo nights, on the second of
which the Association succeeded in pledging
some few of them to support and bring in a Bill
embodying the principle of the petition. A Committee
was then formed, consisting of six Members of Parlia-
ment, and six members of the Working men's Associa-
tion, to prepare the Bill ; but, as is ever the case when
working men and gentlemen are assembled for any ob-
ject, the work fell exclusively, with the exception of
Mr. Roebuck, upon the members of the Association.
They prepared the drafr, discussed, in the Association,
every thuse—rejected some, introduced others, and
ultmately submitted it for public sanction."
To this meeting—lest the working men might have
come without any plan of operation—Mr. O'Connell
brought the fo!lowing draft for an Association, in his own
hand-writing :
" Common sense is better than diamonds, saith the
Englishman."—Spanish proverb.
PLAN OF AN ASSOCIATION TO PROCURE " JUSTICE
FOR THE WORKING-CLASSES," BY AN EFFECTUAL
REFORM OF THE LEGISLATURE.

The following is proposed as the basis of the Asso-
ciation, being the principles on which its members are

agreed :
First.—Universal suffrage.
Second.—Equal representation in point of number o
constituents.
Third.—Free selection of representative, without re
Terence to property.
Fourth.—Free voting by means of secret ballet.
Fifth.—Short Parliaments of fixed duration, the limi
not to exceed three years.
The object of the members of the Association being
to obtain all those ameliorations, they will, as practical
men, accept the assistance of all persons honestly dis-
posed to concur in the currying into effect any part of
these improvements.
They will accept an instalment, as so much of this
truly national debt ; but they seek for, demand, and
insist upon the entire. Neither will they ever consent
to forego or abandon any part of that entire, accepting
portions or instalments of their rights only the better
to enable them to obtain the residue.
In fine, the all-engrossing feature of the plan of the
Association is, and always shall be, to obtain for the
most valuable species of property—human labour--the
best and greatest protection which the social state
can possibly afford.
The Association refrains from including the reform
of the House of Lords, as part of its basis ; but it rea-
dily adopts the principle that a Chamber of Legis-
lators ought to be responsible, directly and potentially,
to the people, for whose property, and lives, and liberties
it contributes to legislate.
Sixth—That the House of Lords involves the prin-
ciple of irresponsibility, and the absurdity of hereditary
capacity or legislation ; and it ought, therefore, to be so
reformed as to be rendered consistent with the progress
of the amelioration of British institutions."
This plan, however, was rendered wholly unnecessary,
in consequence of the working men having prepared the
following resolutions, which were adopted :--
RESOLUTIONS AGREED TO AT A MEETING HELD AT
THE BRITISH COFFEE-HOUSE, ON WEDNESDAY,
JUNE THE 7TH, 1837 :-
Ist. That we agree to support any proposition for
Universal Suffrage made on the petition emanating
from the Working Men's Association, when presented
to the House of Commons by Mr. Roebuck.—Proposed
by Daniel O'Connell, Esq., M.P. ; seconded by Charles
Hindley, Esq., M.P.
id. That we agree to support a vote for a Bill or
Bells to be brought into the House of Commons, em-
bodying the principles of Universal Suffrage, equal
representation, free selection of representatives, without
reference to property ; the Ballot, and short Parlia-
ments, of fixed duration,—the limit not to exceed three
years.—Proposed by Daniel O'Connell, Esq., M.l'. ;
seconded by Charles Hindley, Esq., M.P.
3d. That'we agree to support and vote for a Bill or
Bills to be brought into the H.usc of Commons, for
such a reform in the House of Lords es shall render it
responsible to the people.—Proposed by Daniel O'Con-
nell, Esq., M.P. ; seconded by Sharman Crawford,
Esq., M.P.
4. That a Committee of twelve persons be appointed
to draw up a Bill or Bills, in a legal form, embodying
the principles agreed to ; and that they be submitted to
another meeting of the Liberal Members of Parliament
and the working Mens' Association ; and the following be
the persons appointed : Daniel O'Connell, Esq.M.P., J.
Arthur Roebuck, Esq., M.P. ; John Temple Leader,
Esq. ; Charles Hindley, Esq., M.P. ; Thomas Perro-
net Thompson, Esq., M.P.; Wm. Sharman Crawford,
Esq., M.P. ; Mr. Henry Hetherington ; Mr. John
Cleave ; Mr. James Watson ; Mr. Richard Moore;
Mr. William Lovett ; Mr. Henry Vincent. Proposed
by John Temple Leader, Esq., seconded by Mr. Robert
Hartwell.
:Signed) DANIEL O'CONNELL, M.P. for Kilkenny.
CHARLES HINDLEY, M.P. for Aston-under-
Lyne, except 3d resolution.
W.SHARMAN CRAWFORD, M.P. for Dundalk,
JOHN FIELDEN, M.P. for Oldham, except
31 resolution.
THOMAS WAKLEY, M.P. for Finsbuiy.
I cordially concur in the 2d and 4th resolutions.
DAN. W. HARVEY.
T. PERRONET THOMPSON, M.P., Hull.
J. A. RoEBUcK, M.P., Bath.
I am friendly to the 2d, 3d, and 4th resolutions.
JOHN BOWRING, M.P. for the Clyde Burghs."
The day Mr. O'Connell signed the resolutions he
gave the deputation this list of names, in his own hand-
writing, as persons he thought would also sign them :
but the death of William the Fourth caused the disso-
lution of Parliament, and prevented the deputation from
waiting on the Members named.
DILLON BROWNE M. P.'s for County Mayo.
Sir WM. BRABAZON
Mr. BODKIN Galway County.
Mr. BLAKE Galway Town.
Mr. H. TALBOT New Ross.
Mr. C. WALHEN Wexford Town.
Mr. HENRY GRATTAN Meath.

Sir R. NAGLE t
Mr. L. CHAPMAN

OTWAY CAVE t Tipperary
R. L. SIMI, S
JOHN MAHER
Wexford County
JAMES POWER
Most of the Gentlemen are now silent as the tomb.
Places have done for Members of Parliament what
prisons have not done for the members of the Work-
ing Men's Association—silenced them.

A HABIT OF INTEMPERANCE.
What is the actual condition of the Conservative
party at the present moment ? This is aq
to anuestion
likely to be agitated in no slight degree,owing
explosion in the Times newspaper of yesterday. Our
answer to the question is briefly this :—" The Con-
servative party is pretty well, it thanks vou ; and though
perhap', a liitle surprised (which it ought not to be)
at the explosion to which we have alluded, not at all
discomposed, or disconcerted, or disunited."
That the help and advocacy of the Times, owing to
its great circul ition and authoritative manner, is of con-
siderable importance to any party, it were folly to deny;
but it must be added that there are many awkward
things connected with the support of that Journal, and,
among the rest, a habit of intemperance where indi-
vidual interests are concerned, which makes it occa-
sionally very unjust to the cause which it generally sup-
ports.
The arfcle of yesterday was an instance of this oc-
casional intemperance. The description given of the
feeling of the great body of Conservatives out of Par-
liament towards the Conservative leaders in Parliament
was utterly extravagant and untrue in regard to mat-
, ters of fact, and its style was far more fitted for the
rudest mob than for men of thought and educat*m.
The writer of this outrage upon the Conservative party
does not seem to see, or at all events to observe, that
even in style there is a distinction between the robust
and the ruffianly, and that the language of well-written
invective is not the same with that of boisterous abuse.

It is a flimsy pretence to put off as a quotation,
as the spoken words of some anonymous person whose
position makes him worthy of being quoted, the assertion
that the changes consequent upon throwing out the pre-
sent Ministry by the present Opposition would be merely
the change of one set of " scoundrels"for another. It
is to the very last degree unlikely that any such lan-
guage was ever used by anyone having the slightest claim
to be called respectable ; and, even if it were used, it is
unpardonable and quite disgusting to draw attention
to it in a leading article, as if it were highly worthy
of being listened to by the Conservative party. And
this is so apparent that we are sure it would not have
been done but that a passionate—a sore and angry—.