The Sun.
London, England, 1841-09-28 00:00:00

THE SUN,
1' ET ESDAY SEPTEMBEIZ 28, 1.341.

merit, looking at the diflicri.'
was placed—seeir— "
ation 11^'

in which the itOilittry
enat the last attempt to inercese tat-
-a peen a complete fallure-=taeing
gmpoeition of fresh tattee.,,whith.elAi laPected to pro-
daee a sum o£ not is 2,500,0001., had not only
&Hod lee:Ming that sum, but had actually been cc-
•o42Vied with a falling off in taxation as compared with
the preceding years. He was aware that the present
Chancellor of 'the Exchequer might say that he bad
found the Treasury in an embarrassed position, and that
as he was not the author of that embarrassment; its had
a right to be placed in a Cleat plasition. The Right
Hon. Gentleman would have a right to use that argument
if he and Ids party had not coincided with the late Go-
vernment in all their most expensive undertakings. Noe-
he (Mr-Williams) had Ro hesitation in saying that many
of the acts of the late Government, in dealing with the
public
,money, had been most extravagant and wasteful;•
but in every one of those acts, with the excep-
tion of a single one, the party opposite supported
the late Government, and they had therefore no right
-to complain of the present calamitous condition of the
public funds. He would also remind Hon. Gentlemen
opposite, that when the late Administration had pro-
posed to get rid of the public difficulties by a great
change in our commercial legislation—whet they pro-
posed to make a large addition to the revenue, while, at
the same time, they were about to relieve the wants of
the people—Hon. Gentleinen opposite interfered, and
prevented those measures of the late Government from
being carried into effect. They were, therefore, bound
at present by an imperative duty, to endeavour to make
up the present deficiency by retrenchment and economy,
and not to add to the national difficulties by the imposi-
tion of fresh taxes. He considered that it was a dis-
grace to the present generation, that, after 25 years of
peace, they should be adding to the permanent debt of
the country,, while they imposed upon posterity
the penalty of their prodigality.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
Ho should therefore move the following amendment to
the resolution of the Right Hon. Gentleman :—" That
after twenty-five years of peace it was inexpedient to
add to the funded debt the amount of the deficiency in
the revenue to meet the expenses of the present and the
four preceding years, and that such deficiency might
and ought to be made good by the observance of a rigid
economy and retrenchment in the.public service."
Mr. GREENE objected, to the motisu of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Coventry upon a point of form. We understood
the Hon. Gentleman, who spoke in a •very indistinct
tone, to ground his objection upon the fact of no notice
having been given of the motion.
Mr. WILLIAMS admitted the ynlidity of the objec-
tion, and would withdraW his motion.
Dr. BOWRING was glad the lion, Member for Co-
s-entry had called the attention of the House to the sub-
ject of the great expense incurred in the collection of the
revenue. The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to read a
Parliamentary Return, from which it appeared that
sum of more than 6,000,0001. were annually spent in the
public offices without the sanction of Parliament. Until
that stun was placed under the control of Parliament, they
could have no security for its being properly expendod.
He hoped the Government would take care to economise
to the utmost, and not indulge hinny useless or wasteful
expenditure.
Colonel SIBTITORP wished the Hon. Member for
Bolton bad, during the last seven years, been as anxions
to prevent wasteful expenditure as he appeared to be at
peesent. There was one article hi particular of wasteful
expenditure to which he had repeatedly drawn the atten-
tion of the House, and he could not but regret that the
Hon. Member for Bolton had not inculcated on his
friends the necessity of reducing it ; but, perhaps, that
would have been coming too near home, Ever since the present Ministers had been in office it seemed to him as !
if there had been an attempt at something like bullying
them, but they were too strong to be under any appre-
hensions, He had the most implicit confidence in them,
and, therefore, he should support the propositions of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer against any amendment
that might be proposed..
Mr. HAWES said that the Ministers, by asking a
supply, were asking the highest mark of confidence the
House could repose in them. Now he was not inclined
to repose any confidence in them, and he believed that
the expectations which they had raised would never be
realised. The Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the
Government had stated as a ground for asking this mark
of confidence that he would bring forward no measures
that he did not believe to be fur the public benefit, or
were not sanctioned by his own consmentous feelings.
He (Mr. Hawes) had no hopes of any great measures,
either of commercial or of financial reform, from her
Majesty's present Ministers. Let the House look at the
on
nr e
thess e dsbuyb
je theo
fdti
hffee a ewnsilear ss
uobfj
etcht e
of G
theo v
various and conflicting opinions which had been ex-
pressed
n
egrrnema teens tt
importance—involving the future peace and wel-
fare of the country, and one .wnich had long
attracted almost undivided public attention.—(Hear.)
The Right Hoy. Baronet the Member for Dorchester, in
addressing his constituents, had said that he regarded a
fixed duty on corn as a measure • to which the whole
commercial world was looking as a relief from their
distresses as an absolute • —l-•T
impoeei .1 ity ; while the ?as-
ter-General of the Ordnance, no _inconsiderable member
of the Government, was all in its favour end regarded
a small fixe • d duty as a panacea. The Noble
Lord at the
head of the Woods and ForeSfa said he thought the
,
sliding scale might be alters ". h d
the Noble
Duke who hell]. •th e with a vantaere ; w e
e Privy Seal had, since he
had taken office, dedeteed to thefarmers
of Buckingham-
shire, that he won'''.
1 panne by the law as it was—that he .
would maintain
that he we
the sliding scale in its present state—
not el-
~old sanction no backsliding, and that he had
- •
in • aanged his opinions ; and, in 1839, he had stated,
his place in the -House of Lords, that in his
opinion the present law was the best that could
be devised.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Thus . there were
two more members of the Government differing in opi-
nion on this important point. The Noble LoAg the
Member for North Lancashire said 'that the effrn•law
was justifiable, not simply because it raised rents, which
the Noble Lord admitted it did, but on high grounds of
national policy. The Noble Lord had not, however, stated
what those grounds were, and he. (Mr. Hawes) should
be most glad to hear them debated. But what said the
Noble Secretary for Ireland—did he treat the Corn-law
as involving great questions of national policy?- No; he
said that undoubtedly it was a landlord's question, and
that he should like to know why the landlords of the
country had not as great a right to. have their 'interests
protected as any one elk.. So much for the peace and
unanimity of the united Cabinet.—(Cheers and laughter.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth
was tied to no opinion' op the subject. He took credit
to himself for being as free .as - the wind,
and therefore he hoped, perhaps, that he might be able
to reconcile the discordant elements of which his Cabi-
net was composed.-4 Hear, hear.) Now, for what did
the Right Hon. Barohk Claim tinie.? No one asked to
place a Bill upon the
.fable 'Of the House on any one
subject. The Governinentivhitkliad preceded his had
frequently done that evAide ,t)teeßigebt Hon. Gentleman
was• asked to do. IVhen.leard G rr.y-s,"Government came
into office, which an autumn sitting, that
Noble Lord, when pres4d-feteinfermetion, had given an
assurance that he intended to introduce a measure of
Reform which should be' full and satisfactory, and he
had also stated that he had rot held the seals for three
hours before he had been pressed to give the details of
the measure he intended to propose. Another great
Minister, for whose authority the Right Hon. Gentleman
had a great respect, had:also pursued a course very dif-
ferent from that of the Right Hon. Gentleman. The
Ministry of Mr. Fox, in 1783, had been turned out on
the India Bill. It had been introduced on the 18th of
November, had been rejected on the 16th of December,
and on the 12th of December Mr. Pitt had taken office.
Parliament re-assembled on. the 12th of January,.l7B4,
and on the 14th of Jelluary -Mr. Pitt had laid his Bill
on the table. The course taken by the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman on the present occasion was ono eminently cal-
culated to endanger the peace of the country, and when
the Right Hon. Gentleman asked for delay, on the ground
that he would bring forward no measure of the propriety
of which he was not fully satisfied, he (Mr. Hawes)
must say, however painful it was to make the observa-
tion, that he (Sir R. Peel) was the last man in the
House who ought to ask for delay on such grounds, be •
cause if there was an instance of a statesman coming for-
ward to proposelneasures, to the principles of which he had
previously offered the most violent opposition, the Right
Hon. Baronet was that, statesman.—(Cheers.) Hopes
had been engendered of commercial and financial refOrms,
which had boon blighted by the Right Hon. Gentlemen
opposite. The Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had not thought fit to refer to former debates.
In those debates the Right Hon. Gentleman had stated
that he could easily refute certain statements which he
(Mr. Hawes) had made. The Right Hon. Gentleman
however, had not thought fit to do so, and he (Mr.
Hawes) should he glad to meet the Rightilon. Gentle-
man on that ground. The Budget of the late Ministry
had been misrepresented. The late Chancellor of the
Exchequer, in bringing it forward, had distinctly
given the House the option of two alternatives—
either to increase the revenue by the adoption of mea-
sures of commercial reform, or to fall back upon an in-
crease of taxation. The Right lion. Gentleman had
never stated that he expected to realise all the advantages
of his proposals within one year, • and he had stated that
if he did reap all the advantages he expected from his
scheme he should himself propose fresh taxation or an
issue of
.Exchequer Bills. The Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite had suceeded in defeating that scheme,,and now
he fell back upon the clumsiest of all 'contrivances—that
of raising money by loans ; for, disguise it as they
would, it was a loan, and the first act of the. Right Hon.
Gentleman's Administration was to increase the public
debt—(Hear, hear)—and it surely was not unreasonable,.
when such a proposal was made, to ask how it was pro-
posed to pay the interest of the debt thus proposed
to be incurred.. If he were simply stating his
own opinion the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite might
say that from their station they were better fitted than
ho was to judge of the propriety of delay, but he had . authorities to which the Right Hon. Gentlemen paid
deference. Mr. Deacon Hume had stated before the
Import Duties Committee that lie considered the duties
on food tended to undermine the nmanufactures of the '
Country, Mid that their continuance would a severe trial to
the manufacturing prosperity of the country. He also
gave it as his opinion, that those duties were. under-
mining the public revenue, by drying the. sources from
which it was derived. In 1835, before -the Hand-loom
Weavers' Committee, Mr. Gardiner had said that
if •we lost a • market one year we' lost it al-
together ; and, therefore, • it was not well to
trifle with trade even for a year. Upon those grounds
he called upon Right 'Hon. Gentlemen opposite to tell
what they meant to de.7---.(Cheers.) He did not ask for
specifi
c details, but at least he had a right to know upon
they intended to treat the Corn-laws---
hat principle
what measures of commercial or financial reform the
country was to expect, or if. it were to expect any at all.
:
The 11l ' Hon. Ci rail( me sa!i, th.(
sugar had increased. He believed the Right lion.
mistaken; and thatat the endof time
b en,
Gentleman was mi
year it would be found
that the consumption, in propor-

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tiort to the popts( -4fon had deetensed.. Tito Right Hon. it,
gentlentaii had liken n fe* months of the year in which
ths ii'dOArqtis;i4 iint;-;dlS+a*S,V liiies,;eit;.;ansi ,tIi9JA •he
had based his calculations.if tliej4Cie S;;etreet the aeonialy
would be presented :of an increase of consumptls';'n in a
necessary of life, taking place because it had become
more costly. ' The' Hand-loom WeaVers' Commission
connected
eett,ci composedwithi
rgieonuetsloci;iiinienerteeosdftstl.hvietohgerteejal
eotefshttiihtuaeiclei
tol and Commi-
ssioners Ittreselyg and
dommerCial interests, and another of tneiii Mail Ld con-
nection with these interests whatever. Now, shat was
their opinion as to the propriety of settling these questions?
Did they thinit there was no chance of public. disquie-
tude ? Quite different. The lion. Member, then read
an extract from the Report to the effect that distress
tended to depreciate the character of the poor, and to
create ie them a desire for organie changes. Yet the
Right liori.Barotiet proposed to leave the COthitry to the
operation of such causes for a period of four months.
Having so much of the address as acknowledged the peo-
ple's distresses, he proposed to dissolve Parliament
without propagating one single measure for their relief.
He (Mr. II.) believed that the people would not be sa-
tisfied with such a state of things. Ho believed that by
such a course the Hon. Baronet was doing more to en-
courage Chartism than had been done by any other pub-
. trifasrhare,
The
net:
lie man.—(Cries of " Oh, oh," from the Ministerial
appeared,ed by
as their
tthe Gc3foverpnies,:eaenla(sutehaerbasiisieoafr.i)ts poHlicey.
had
• benches.) At present there was no intelligible principle as-
only object had been the
sßhaoruohnieth,einsaridefetience to the Cefrn-laws.
heard with satisfaction a statement of the Right
bi.Belegaronet had asked whether it would not belsetter
with respect to the Corn-
laws, until the plan had been fully prepared ? from
that they 'night fairly infer that the whole question of
the Corn-laws would •be taken into consideration by the
Government. He would be glad to know from the Right
llon. Bart. if such was his meanieg He confessed,
looking at the coarse taken by the Government, it Wits
one against which he felt bound to enter his strong pro-
test. He would content himself with simply sityine*" No,"
to the motion, because he knew what would' be the
result of a division. He could not allow the oppor-
tunity to pass without expressing his regi'et at the it-
difference manifested bas the OnVernitielit Td the- distrees
which existed; said a dotirst of policy Whiclrhe thought
likely to Ornate general dissatisfaction.
Mr. EWART said, he held in his hand' a deCument
which he had received that day from a resident
in Manchester, containing, en atcount of the 'Member
of miles entirely at It etniid, d 3 *tit ae tko§e. only
partially it Work in several of the manufacturing dis-
tricts. It was dated the 24th of Septencibeionly three
days since. In Manchester, et milli entirety di it stand
there were 17 ; in Stockport and the neighbourhood
',
17 ;in Bolton, 7 , Bony and the neighbourhood, 4 ;
in Oldham, Q ; hi Bhilese'alieidge fins. neighbourhood, 8 ;
in Itediciale, 3 ; and 11 scattered through the Mille
district. Of those only partially at work there were
in Manchester, 10 ;in Burye Steekaidit; i 4 j iii
Bolton, 6 ; and in Tcri,ttaii, 5„ The only demand at
present wits rntil RuSsia. That demand would soon
caste. and then they would bte depending upon India
and China. The state of our rele,tidiis•irlth the letter
country forbade any hope fruits that quarter. Id Siifili it •
state of things he must say he was astonished at the
course pursued by the Government. An extension of
trade was the only remedy fbr the Wowing distress.
The Right Hon. Gentleman, (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) had justly stated, that the sugar trade
had improved. Bat was the price of sugar what
it ought to be 2—Ulcer, hear.) 'Certainly not;
and the expiration of the treaty of Broil afforded an
excellent oppottoriity of Making ad ;alteration: All the
-ConimitttleS which had sat upon the commerce of the
country had been in favour of an -extension of'com-
merce, and it could not long be resisted.. He regretted
that the Right Hon. Baronet should appear .to wait for
circumstances, instead of coming forward and boldly
stating What measures he would propose. It appeared
to him that the Government had in it the elements of
disorganisation, If other Governments tottered to their
fall, this tottered at its formation.
Mr. SCOTT said, that in the borough which he re-
presented, viz., Walsall, public distress was greatly on
the increase, and under these circumstances he pro-
tested against the question of the Corn-IaWS being locked
out of the Budget of the Chancellor of the Exchequer .
It was a question of vital importance as affecting the in-
terests of the country. Whether or not the Chancellor
of the Exchequer succeeded in raising a revenue suffi-
cient for the expenditure, still would the Corn-laws re-
main to be considered for the interest of trade and com-
merce,----(Hear.) The state of the country, as admitted
on all heads, was deplorable ; hundreds were thrown out
of employment, and if this state of things should con-
tinue it would be impossible to see the result. He hoped-
he was not trespassing too long upon the House, but he
could not but request the Right Hon. Baronet to give his
most speedy and casrnest consideration to the distresses
of the country.—(Hear.)
Sir R. PEEL said it was from no disrespect to Hon.
Gentlemen opposite that he adopted the course which he
was pursuing, but he deemed it necessary that her Ma-
jesty's Government should bete an opportunity ofconsider-
ing the present condition of affairs, with the aid of that
information derived from the tenure of office, and that
they should be allowed time to submit their measures to
Parliament; and that he should bring forward his mea-
sures at once, or abstain from doing so altogether, and
not give a " glimpse," as the Right Hon. Gentleman op-
posite had required, of his intention. He said the other
night he did not perceive the advantage of adopting
such a course. He thought such a course would be more
likely to mislead and deceive than anything else.—(Hcar,
hear.) The Member for Dumfries had imputed to a
Noble Duke force of character, and to him (Sir R. Peel)
a power of mind which he did not possess—(Hear)—
and that it was very rare to meet in the same individual
intellectual power and force of character. If it were
true that his panegyric was deserved, and that those two
qualities were rarely combined in the same individual,
yet it was some consolation to know, that if not com-
bined in the same individual, those attributes were to be
found in the sense Administration.--(Cheers.) The late
Chancellor of the Exchequer in his speech seemed to
think that the present Government had charged the late
Administration with laxity of principle' and profligate
expense, and he must say it was one main part of Go-
vernment that its public character should depend on the
expenditure of the country—(Hear, hear)—on the in-
fluence they exercise on foreign countries—on the mea-
sures they may feel it their duty to resort to ; and it
was quite impossible for any Government to exercise an
efficient control with a large deficiency of reeenue.—,
(Hear, hear.) • Government was responsible' for its
policy, and there could be no doubt that the expenses
connected with that policy made part of its, responsi-
bility; and any opposition which did not resist measures
which the honour and interests of the country might re-
quire to be resisted, would not be doing its duty, -though
they might under peculiar circumstances sanction the de-
tails of those measures. It was the duty of
.;tlae oppo-
sition to censure the policy that led to the expenditure,
and it would be quite inconsistent not to challenge the
expenditure after the policy had been blamed.—(Heir
hear.) The two things were perfectly reconcilable. The
Hon. Member for Coventry, in comparing the estimates
of 1830 with the estimate of the into Government had
said that those of the Duke of Wellington's • Govern-
ment, making every deduction for the late Government
on account of the expenses incurred in China, Canada,
and other places, were less than those of thelate Go-
vernment by 3,200,00e1.
Mr. WILLIAMS-2,200,0001
Sir R. PEEL—And yet after all the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman was willing to give hie support to the ,late Ad-
ministration and to withhold it from the present. He
would have no confidence in the presents Administration.
Mr. WILLIAMS said he- had expressed no opinion
on the subject.
Sir R. PEEL did not care so n ucb for the,opinien of
the Hon. Gentleman as for those decisive proofs which
he had given of that opinion.—(Loud cheers.) ' It seems
he had some conclusive reasons of his. own .for-not de-
pending on his (Sir R. Peel's) Government. He says
that a reduction of 5,000,0001. may be made in
the expenditure of the country. Sitilpose he
was right, he ought not fo deny to men entrusted with,
the functions of Government, an opportunity of considers
ing how far they could approximate to that ,reduction.
If; should give an opportunity of conzitierinn• ivhether
lie was right, because if lie were even within 5o per cent.,
it was quite clear the deficiency could be inadq,Ap withr,
out having recourse to fresh taxes.—(Cheers.) lie con-
curred with the Chancellor of the Exchequer in thinking
it would be prejudicial to the 'Abb.:elf they were made to
believe that such a reduction would been-lade. He bee,
lieved it to be impossible. All he would now promise
was—what it was right alone that a Minister should pro-
mise—that there should be a careful review of the esti-
mates—of what the public interest may require at the
present tithe ; and that whatever reduction could be
made consistent with the public requirements he was
satisfied would be made. The attempt should be made,
but it would be extravagant to make any promises without
knowing what those interests may require.—(llear.)
With regard to the revenue collected,
the Hon. Gentle-
man alluded to the number of collectors, and the sums
that all
Ralilollitenshonou.lGdedno:
these officers had . fees which were obligeddbe relin-
quished,
tfothreecollect the as being found disagreeable odious to the
paid to them ; but be should recollect thtaot formerdy
public. Their salaries were increased in consequence,
said that week after
ttaill'elotmildattem;deibedet
de-
scription he had given of the state so.. country when
ntwo tlt,
eh of course,
hoeuladp phr
e 0
gbe
:approbation
oe
oic
ofm
week the country was becoming more distressed; that em-
ployment was becoming more scarce, and debts with mote
he had first come into office. •He
difficulty recovered ; that a universal stagnation of com-
merce was taking place,. and that
greatestlac despon-
dency prevailed when he (Sir R.
that in
come into
office. He (Sir R. Peel) admitted in that important
f tu
branch of commerce—the cotton manu_an re—great de-
pression did exist ; but he cautioned Hon._.?entlemen
against making exaggerated statements.—(Beat,
not to
hear.)
ot
They were only calculated to inflame, to relieve.
for the —(Hear, hear.) And it was important
..e peace of
thh
truth should be Is' eid—(Hear
country—not that the
•
hear) but that too high a colouring should
not be
given to it.—(Cheers.) This course he meant to
nn , pursue
SO Or detailed
—.to institute inquiry upon every ca distress
that came before the notice of the Hoiise through
Hon.
Members.—(Hear, hear.) He would apply the means
placed at his disposal by Government_ the purpose of
investigating such cases of distress as demanded in-
quiry.—(Hear, hear.) But if these
were vague unde-
fined descriptions it would be impossible to make that
inquiry. The other night the Hon. Member
for Ashton,
net only gave a general account of the , 'distress
e a state
of the country, but he made !tent of
a particular instance which he (Sir B. Peel) listened
to with the utmost attention. He i was
xv.. rellP.,ll9d to hat
2
said thathe met a working. man whoto
,a 0
looking forforwork having been thrown ,emPiesiitent.
The HUI'S lalemher, he (11.1r.. Ilindley? to.iou,
d- loin he lutist' gc
on the parish. The poor man saidhad been them:.

(the pafisli lads ligyston, near Oldham)—and that he
received only ri-lieek for the support of his fa-
mily, which consisted of five pereeii.e He (Sir Robert
Peel),.thonght it his duty to inquire intd that akritement,
and he received an answer from one of the Magistrates
of that vi' the fellowing effect, viz., that the Magis-
trates of Royston IYair attention called to the case
alluded to, which appeared in a. aVeneeig in the Times,
newspaper, and being read in presence and two
brother Magistrates, the overseers said it was untriie,
and that a single instance .like the case described did
nor oesctic its tt 4i4r).,et of 60,000 inhabitants in Lan-
cashire and Yorkshire. The writer then said that no
case of the kind came within his oiaservation.—(Lond
cheers.) They could not inquire into cases of a vague
description, but the House would concur with him in
the propriety of Hon. Members abstaining from bringing
forward cases of that description, unless they were borne
out by fact's that came under their cognizance, and of the
correctness or which they were satisfied.—(Cheers.) He
admired the patience and long-suffering of the working
classes, which he thought was a bright feature in the
national character, but he thought they ought to be
cautious from that example in listening to statementa of
that kind mit founded on fact.—(Cheers.)
Lord PALMERSTON did not rise for the purpose of
making any objeetion to the particular proposition
of - the. Chancellor of the Exchequer, because
he was ready to admit that if Government
did not get the vote that Session, which they pro-
posed to the House, for the purpose of making
good the deficiency in the revenue—if they did not get
a vote to supply the deficiency of the country, by relax-
ing the commercial code, by giving a fresh development
to the industry of the country, and by taking off some
of those fetters which confined that industry—he said
he was ready to admit that the course now -adopted
may have an the effect of iinediately, driVing Government
to lay on fresh taxes. But, at 'the same time, he trusted
it would mark the course of tile Government, which re-
turned to Parliament with a majority ; aud would show
the country, which had returned them there, that it
was paying 2,500,0001. for its gratification.—(Cheers.)
The price which the country would have to pay for the
gratification of having the Hight Honourable Gentleman
and his Colleagues in power would be nn addition of
two-and-a-half millions to the debt of the country ;
anti he trusted that the country'in the results Would not
find theta- itid dear at the price.—(Hear, hear, and
laughter.) He was perfectly prepared with ilia Right.
Hon. Friend to agree to the couveo proposed by her
Majesty's present Ministers, as being, under the cir-
cumstances in whiCh they stood, the least of the evils
Of wide!' they mold make selection, but having said that,
he must repeat, that lie could not but express his
entire disapprobation of the general course the Government
seemed determined to follow.—(Bear, hear.) It was
pal:fedi:a true that it would be unreasonable to expect
that the Goveftlffient should now come down and State in
detail the system of increiteed taxation by which they
hoped in the ensuing year to make the expenditure and
Income equal. He was in hopes that they had now got
ri GoVeritneent. that could forte' future events, for he
would assert that they must be able to ale so in order to
make the expenditure equal W the income of the country,
--(Hear, hear.) He quite agreed that it would be un-
feastniable now to call upon the Hight lion, Baronet to
dale: life bOiti'st lie intended to pursue, assuming that the
Governifiellt lied Mad& up their minds as to that course,
If they were to undersitatki that the Government had
made up their minds, then one tlitemlou which they had
all asked had been answered.—(Hear, helm) They had
a right to ask the question—not what detailed measures
they intended to propose, but whether they intended to
make up the deficiency that existed by proposing fresh
taxes, or whether they intended to do at by relaxing the
presaitit cotrunercial system, by increasing the comforts
Of the people; arid by giving a fresh stimulus to the
contra-Weil liiildchhitry7--(Hear, hear.) Upon that
question he 6.4stlfd kalniersten) could not admit their
plea for delay. Upon that question they turned
out the late Government, and they did eta without
necessity—.(Hear, 'hear, and laughter.) The present
Government, he would venture to say,idid not go. to the
division on that question without having made up their
minds as to the substitute they intended to propose, and
considering the time that had chinned, he thought they
had no excuse for not being able to state plainly to the
country whether they adhered to the doctrine they laid.
down upon the discussion of the sugar duties.—(ilear,
hear.) That question affected so deeply the great in-
terests of the country that it had a right to know what
the Government intended to do upon it. That there
.would be a deficiency was admitted as a certainty, because
the right lion. Bart. who spoke last had acknowledged
that whatever reduction he might hope to make would
not go to the extent of equalizing the expenditure,
with the revenue. —( Hear, hear.) When they were told that
the large expenditure was the fault of the late Government
he must beg to remind the House that with respect to the ex-
penditure of the army and navy they had bean constantly urged
by the other side o t the House to increase their expenditure
in those two departments instead of diminishing it • and, there-
fore, if any charge was to be made against the late Govern-
ment it must be one of being tardy in expending the public
money, and not one of being lavish of it.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
Upon those two heads of expenditure he thought the Govern-
ment would not be able to make any reduction ?—(Hear,
hear.) He must press upon the Government, if they should
think it consistent with their duty to make any reduction in the
naval force of the country, to do it upon the consideration of
the country alone, and not in conjunction with any foreign
country.—( Hear.) With respect to the question of commer-
ciab policy the Government intend to adopt,he thought, before
Parliament separated, the House and the country ought to be
informed of the course the Government intended to pursue.—
(Hear, hear ) The question of the Cern-laws, in his opinion,
imperatively called for consideration. Upon that question,
however, the country was quite in the dark as to what the in-
tentions of the Government were.—(Hear, hear.) Those in-
tentions were only to be wiles:tett by what had fallen from dif-
ferent members of the Administration, when addressing their
constituents. Upon that question there was evidently dis-
union in the Cabinet—upon that question there was a thing
that could not be concealed.—(Cheers and laughter.) That
being the case. the Cabinet bring disunited on that great
question, it was but fair to give :hem tine to conic to one epi-.
nion or the other.—(Hear, and laughter.) The country ought to
wait a decent time to give the Ministers an oppor-
tunity of coming to some decision; but there was a limit
to that period, and he (Lord Palmerston) did not think the
decision of the Cabinet ought to be put off to be the subject of
Christmas revels.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) If it was
necessary, in order to.',enable the Government to come to a
decision on the Corn-law question, that time should he given
them, lie thought that Parliament ought to meet again at the
latter part of tke autumn.—(Hear, hear.) One of the first
duties of the Government was to attend to the interests of the
country and to consult its feelings.—( Hear, hear.) But
then it was said that the distress was exaggerated, and that the
meetings that had taken place day by day, on the subject of
that distress were only the means by which party spirit was
displa3cd.—( Hear, hear.) There could he no doubt that
there was great distress in the country, and that that distress
was owing to the Corn-laws, and lie (Lord Palmerston) must,
therefore, say, that in decency the Government ought
not to postpone the announcement of their intentions
on the great question of the Corn-laws.—(Hear, hear.)
He knew something of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, and
from his knowledge of -him, he could not, until he saw Par-
liament prorogued without any announcement of the inten
Lions of the Government, believe that he would adopt any such
course.—(Hear, hear.) He would never believe that the
-night Hon. Baronet would prorogue Parliament to February,
'leaving the country. in a feverish state of agitation upon so
important a question as the Corn-laws, and taking upon him-
self all the responsibility of anything unpleasant that might
happen. Without offering the slightest opposition to the mea-
sures, and without pressing the Government unfairly, he would
intreat the Right Hon. Baronet to use all the powers he pos-
sessed to bring the Cabinet to some decision one way or other
in the course of the autumn. If the decision of the Government
was to stand by the Corn-laws as they at present existed, all
he asked was, that they would let the country know it, in order
that they might make up their minds to it—(Hear, hear)—
and in order also that the agriculturists might have the con-
solation of knowing that the Corn-laws would remain as they
were. If, however, on the other hand,.the Government thought
they could snake some alteration in the graduated scale, then,
he asked them to let the con'umer - know that fact.—(Hear,
i hear.) In his opinion it was a mistake for the landowners to
tsuppose that the Corn-laws were a benefit to them—they
were no such thing; at all events, the present uncertainty was
injurious to every body.—( Hear, hear.) He hoped that
when the time for the prorogation came they would either
be told what course the Government intended to pursue, or
that they_ intended_ to call Parliament together in the begin-
ning of November, in order then to state what their inten-
tions were.—( Hear, hair.) •
Mr. FIELDEN then proceeded to address the House, but
in so low a tone as to render it almost impossible to catch a
single sentence that fell from the lion. 11:lenib,r. We, how-
ever, understood him to say that the manufacturers in Oldham
were in so distressed a condition that they were obliged to work
their mills for short time, and that they did so more out of con.
sideration for their men than themselves. But notwithstanding
this distress, their taxes and burthens were increased.. The
state of the manufacturing districts was such that something
must he done, and he tru'tcd, therefore, that when the Right
Hon. Baronet made inquiry on the subject, he would do it in a
manner that would afford relief to the distressed.

Mr. C. WOOD believed that the statements of the Hon.
Member for Oldham were most true, that a large portion of
the mills were working short time, and that more from consi-
deration to the working men than for the profits of the ma-
nufacturers. They looked to the measures proposed by the
late Government as the sole means of enabling them to carry
on their trade, and thereby give employment to tneir workmen.
He conceived, with his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Baring),
that the explanation of the Right Hen. Chancellor of the be-
chequer had rendered the proposed financial transaction less
clear than it before appeared. It appeared simple, until he
told them the funding of the Exchequer Bills was his main ob-
ject. If so, in what manner did he propose to obtain his ways
and means for covering the deficiency ? According to the terms
offered to the public, it was impossible for him to tell, until
March next, whether the public would give him Exchequer
Bills or money. How, then, was he to provide his ways and
means? His Right Hon. Friend, the late Chancellor of the
Exchequer, proposed to obtain twenty-two minions from the
Customs, exclusive of sugar and corn.—(No, no.) Oh, that
included the sum of 500,0001. from corn. Well, he would be
glad to know what amount the Chancellor of the Exchequer an-
ticipated in the present year from sugar ? The last Government
estimated the sum to be obtained from that source at 700,000 S:,
and it was admitted that that was a low estimate—that it
would amount to 900,0001., but not by the admission of fo-
reign grown sugar, but from the importation of an increased
quantity from our own colonies, both east and west. The
maxim 'of the Chancellor of the Exchequer last year was " Let
well alone," meaning that our colonies would produce to the
revenue as much as if the foreign sugar was admitted at a
lower duty. The Right Hon. Baronet, however, took upon
that occasion another view of the question--he opposed the
Budget of his Right Hon. Friend because, he said, it must
have failed, for so much foreign sugar as was admitted would
displace so much of the produce of our own colonies. Now he
would like to know which the House was to rely upon, the
calculations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or that of the
First Lord of the Treasury?—(Hear, hear.) Such discre
pancies between two such high officers indicated that
thorn was not that harmony at the Treasury Board which
he would like to see. Ho had never taken any part in asking
the Right Hon. Baronet to come forward and say what course
he intended to take. Bat he would not be doing his dnty to
the Right Hon. Baronet or to his constituents, if he did not
say that the course taken by him was not one that would or could
give satisfaction to the country.—(Hear, hear.) He was
ready to admit, that, had power fallen into his hands in an
accidental manner, or had 'it coma to him uoexpectediy, it
would have been his duty to take time for the consideration of
his measures. But when lee took office upon the very grounds
—when his attention was called to the subject in 1840—when
the Budget was brought forward, within a month after the ex-

POOR LAWS.
Sir J. GRAHAM moved the order of the day for going into
Committee on the Poor-law Commissioners Continuance Bill.
On the question that the Speaker do leave the Chair,
Mr. WAKLEY hoped that ,considering the late hour of
the night—(Loud cries of " Oh, oh" )—he thought, consider-
ing the great concessions that had been made by himself and
other Hon. Members in not opposing the Bill, that they were
entitled to have a full discussion of the measure, and by that
means in the next Session of Parliament they might hope to
hate a measure which would be somewhat satisfactory to the
House and the country. lf, however, it was the desire of the
House that the Bill should be proceeded with he would not in-
terfere.—(Cries of " Go on:")
Mr. yokk-5 trusted the House would indulge him for a
few moments white; he brought forward the motion, of which
he had given notice, ant..in order that Hon. Members might
of that motion, he would take the
be in possession of the obj
Chat it. be
.‘aninstruc.tion to
liberty of reading it to theeelts'lou ;c.
Cnms.:,,,sion
cm', to insert a
the Committee on the Poor-law
Commissioners be
clause to the following effect :—" That th.
not empowered to enforce indiscriminate sep,- r"9" between.
or permit
separation and wife, and that in no case shall they sane's.
separation when the application for relef shall be subb, scooted
as arising from positive inability to obtain work, or
physical infirmity, and not from idleness, Tice, or crimb. •
He submitted that resolution to them on authority which ap-
peared to him unexceptionable. He proposed to Justify it on
the evidence of the humane and enlightened gentlemen on the
other side, whose kindly feelings of benevolence, acting upon
them in the months of June and July last—(Hear, hear)—
prompted them to proclaim throughout the country, that only
which he asked far, namely, that " those whom God had join-
ed, let no man put asunder."—( Hear, hear.) He proposed it
also in conformity with the Scriptural law, which taught them
practical charity to all men, and to do to others as they would
be done by. The distress which at present existed throughout
the country was undeniable, and unless some steps were taken
to remedy it, he feared it would lead to mischief. The remedy
was one which, perhaps, they weie not at the present moment
able to supply ' • but lie believed the distress would be very
much alleviated by removing from poverty a legislative penalty,
and he pet it to the House whether such a step would not be
calculated to soften the asperities of the great mass of the suf-
fering community ? He was anxious that the integrity of his
clause should not he compromised by the idea that it was in-
tended to include the worthless or abandoned. At the present
moment the national stomach was unfed —( Hear, and a laugh.)
It struck him that that was a subject for sympathy and regret,
rather than ridicule and laughter.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The
country being in the state he had referred to, ho
put it to the House whether it was fitting that the
people should be punished for their poverty ? As the
law at present stood, a married man could not accept relief
without incurring a penalty which was repugnant to hu-
man nature. He had prepared some statements on the subject,
which at the present advanced hour he would not trouble the
House with, but he would merely refer to the Slave Emancipa-
tion Act, for the purpose of showing the extreme care with
which the framers of that Act had provided for the social ties of
the negroes, and made provision that under no circumstances
should they be remoeed from one plantation to another, if it
subjected them to separation from their wives and families, or
even their reputed wives. If they accorded to the Commis-
sioners the power they hitherto possessed, the wife of the negro
during the existence of slavery, stood in a better position than
the wife of the English pauper would be. That was his case
and he put it not to their mercy, but to their justice and hu.
manity.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he would avail himself
of the opportunity which the present motion afforded,
of announcing to the House the course which he
would take with resnect ;to that motion, and to the sub-
sequent ones about to be made on the same subject. He
did not mean to deny the general importance of the ques-
tions, hut he did not believe it possible to discuss any subject
which touched more nearly on the feelings, or was more im-
mediately connected with the interests of so large a portion of
their fellow-countrymen; and feeling that, sincerely as he did,
he was impressed with a sense of the necessity of approaching.
the subject with caution. If he followed Honourable Gen-
tleman in discussions on that particular question, involving a
portion of the workhouse regulation, it would be impossible not
to follow other Honourable Gentlemen into other details, and
thus incidentally and gradually, but with his eyes open to the
inconvenience of such party discussions, he should be betrayed
into a discussion of all the details of the Poor-Jaw. He thought
it necessary to be thus explicit. The object of the Govern-
ment in introducing the present Bill was to avoid pre-
cisely the discussion of the points which Honourable
Gentlemen now brought forward, and to afford time and
opportunity carefully and cautiously to consider every
portion of that important measure which was adopted by the
Legislature five or six years ago. There might be defects
which they were anxious to supply, and imperfections which
they were desirous to remedy, but those considerations required
time and caution. To be donb safely, the thing must be done
by the Government upon their responsibility. They did not
shrink from the arduous duty of consideuing this question of
remedying the imperfections of the law—but he repeated that
caution was necessary.
_They only thought that the Commis-
sion should be continued till the close of the next Session of
Parliament. Before the commencement of the next Session
Government would turn their attention to the entire subject. In
the course of last Session their labours were cut short on the
question, and some of the proposals of the late Government
were withdrawn, others were adopted and amended, and a very
considerable proportion of those proposals were not con-
sidered at all. Now, it would be the duty of the
present Government to consider all 'those proposals
On the present occasion, therefore, the House ought not to
enter into a discussion of the Poor-laws in detail, but confine
itself to the tingle question now before the House, whether,
under all circumstances, it was not expedient that the Com-
mission should be renewed for a limited time, and with the ob-
ject he had stated ? He was unwilling to enter into the ques-
tion mooted by the Hon. Gentleman opposite; but he would
throw this out for the Hon. Gentleman's consideration, that
that particular regulation of the workhouse establishment was
by no means a new regulation. It was a regulation which ex-
isted under local Acts. Wherever several parishes had been
united by such Acts there was a large number of both sexes col-
lected together, and from the absolute necessity of the casea
division of the sexes was obliged to be had recourse to. Such
s
had been the case in the Gilbert union for The last fifty Marc;
and in the Isle of Wight, where, under local Acts,
identical with a union had existed for a long time. Anysimg7unmgenot.
against the fact must be an argument against thfita:soeuldbib,e
his
a large number of paupers in the same place.
md uatny, then
and, tonn rtehsei st a thea m e
ground,ns t instruction o
ton movede resistiGnsetorle..-
Poor-law regulations.
tions referring to the question of th
sition to the instruction arose from
not
disrespecttt'that Government disre-
gardedHe trusted the Hon. Gentleman would notthiokthfaotrhtihseopsupo.b.
sub-
ject of which it treated. It was
se anxious not to
the condition of the poor ; but they were mo
any matter of the kind so intimately connected with
tmaraelTiaanofy mthiasttacklase a matter so immediately affecting the in