The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-25 00:00:00

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companies quarrelling, the Brighton Company would be in a
position to shut the South-Eastern Company out of London
altogether. But independently of these considerations, a line
must sooner or later be made to Lewisham and Bromley, and
even were the two companies friendly, he was confident, upon
a consultation, they would determine to make this new cheap
line to Croydon. At present the South-Eastern Company
had to hand over to the Brighton Company the whole profits
of the traffic, minus the expense of working, besides the main-
tenance and expense of six miles of the Brighton
line, between Reigate and Croydon, and therefore
should it unfortunately happen, that for the sake
of a foolish system of competition, the committee
should grant the Brighton Mid Kent line, they ought, in jus-
tice to the public and the South Eastern Company to concede
the new Croydon line with it. So impressed was he with
the conviction that it was not only dangerous but ridicu-
lous to think of tunnelling through the Broughton hill,
which the Brighton line proposed to do, that in the outset he
announced his intention to the South Eastern to decline being
the engineer to any line that pursued such course, and, upon
his recommendation, that insurmountable obstacle to a direct
North Kent line had been avoided. With reference to an
extension of the line from Canterbury to Dover, it might
eventually become necessary when the success of the
South Eastern Company had become well established,
but at present there was by no means sufficient traffic
to justify the construction of such a line. He was
quite willing, however, to leave such a question
to be decided by the Board of Trade. He had never heard
of a more monstrous proposition than to tunnel the Brough-
ton-hills
between Canterbury and Maidstone in the manner
proposed by the Brighton Company. Such a line ought not
only not to be made, but it never ought to have been proposed
either to the public or a body of proprietors. He disposed of
the question of competition by declaring that where com-
bination was possible competition was impossible. Amongst
corn dealers, where the traders were numerous, competition
was not only practicable, but wholesome; but in the case of
two railways the idea could not be entertained for a
mornent. Indeed the two parties here did not differ upon
that head. The Brighton Company did not want competi-
tion, but they wished him to give up what he considered was
the best line, and then they were ready to consent to amal-
gamation. Of course he refused to concede that.
The CHAIRMAN—Suppose these lines were to be delayed
for the present, could lines with better gradienti, and better
calculated to serve the purposes of the public, be obtained.
Mr. Stephenson—Certainly not. For the last three years
I have been ransacking the country, and let whatever lines
be passed, or whatever delays take place, I am quite con-
vinced the continental traffic will ultimately settle down on a
line running as the South-Eastern Mid Kent proposes to do
through the Durant Valley.
Mr. Stephenson was cross-examined by Mr. Talbot, but
nothing material was elicited.
The Committee adjourned shortly after four till twelve
o'clock to-morrow.

who had been told by the Secretary fot the Colonies
that unless the charges which were made against him
were refuted, he could not recommend him to any
other office under the Crown ; and when that
officer remained for some time on the spot in order
that the charge might be fully investigated, and when
they were not proved, he considered that it was but
justice that the papers should be produced. The Noble
Lord concluded by moving for their production.
Earl GREY said, except under no ordinary circum-
stances, he should have objected to the production of
these papers; but as the circumstances were so peculiar,
it was right that the correspondence which had been
moved for should be produced. The Honourable Gen-
tleman who preceded him in the Colonial-office had
no objection to their production.
The motion was then agreed to.
THE ARMY—LIMITING THE SERVICE.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY gave notice that
he should put the following questions to the Noble
Marquis (Lansdowne) to-morrow—whether the Bill
which had been introduced into the House of Commons by
her Majesty's Government for limiting the service in
the army, had received the sanction and approba-
tion of the Commander-in-Chief; or if it had ori-
ginated with her Majesty's Government, or of any
officer, and whether the opinion of any board of
general officers had been taken, or other competent
authorities ; and, secondly, whether it was the intention
of her Majesty's Ministers to issue a warrant like that
issued in October, 1806, to raise the pensions of non-
commissioned officers, when entitled to their discharge.
Lord BROUGHAM moved for a return of the cor-
respondence upon an inquiry into the subject of relief
works in Clare; and also the letter written by Captain
Gordon, of Clare, on the same suhject.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

SUN OFFICE, Seven o' Clock

EAFT INDIA HOUSE.—(THIS DAY.)
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition.)
THE RAJA OF SATTARA.
Mr. GEORGE THOMPSON supported the resolution. The
?lon. Proprietor proceeded to read certain extracts from the
letters of the ex-Raja to his agent Rungo Bapejee, stating
his determination to accept nothing less than full justice,
although terms (the terms which he (Mr. Thompson) had
laid before the Court) bad heck offered to him by Major
Carpenter, agent of the Government, in an interview held
with him at Benares, in September, 1845. Another letter,
sreciting the terms (the particulars of which had been
stated in the Raja's communication) was received from the
secretary of the deposed monarch, who added that the
Governor-General was himself expected at Benares, and
that he would endeavour to enter into arrangements in
a personal interview, with the Raja. The secretary's
own impression was that an endeavour was being made to
entrap the Raja into some admission which should have the
authority of his hand and seal. He (Mr. Thompson) had
afterwards received a letter (the only one of the kind he bad
ever received) from the Raja, expressing his regret that his
friends in England should have thought proiser to take steps
which compromised him with Major Carpenter, who had
atateei his annoyance, that the conversation he had had with
Use Raja should have been made public. He (Mr. Thompson)
sand friend Rungo Banpojee wrote in answer, that they were
accountable for the act, and that he was freed from any
implication in it. Mr. Thompson then detailed at great length
the manner in which he had obtained possession of the secret
papers referred to. They had been left unsought for at his
chambers. He had not fomented rebellion in their courts,
beat who could blame him if he had taken advantage of it.—
(Hear, hear.) But he did not run about the streets and
)babble to all the persons he met that he had possession of
these secret papers, but be did this. He framed a motion for
returns for the House of Commons, which Mr. Villiers had
the kindness to make just before the rising of the last session
of Parliament, but Sir John Cam Hobhouse had taken the
liberty of making a slight alteration in the terms of that no-
tice, and the consequence was, that when the papers ordered
by the House were laid before the House on the reassembling
of Parliament, the very documents that were particularly re-
quired rLdhwnecre igotbrio
Hobhouse;
them.an in
answerl)l r. Villiersto thseu
representationsbsequ subsequently saw
‘,l
that were made that a dispatch of the 24th August, 1845,
nd the corresprendence relating thereto, were not included in
t ese returns, the Right Hon. Baronet assured him that he
should issue an order to the East India House to furnish
them ; kat on the evening of the 15th February the Hon.
Stephen Byng, one of the clerks under the Board of Control,
mel Mr. Villiers in the lobby, and told bim that he could not
get the papers, that the East India Company would not give
them up. Subsequently the matter was brought before the
Illemse by Mr. Hume, and the result was known to them all.
Ift was for the proprietors to accede to the motion of his Hon.
. '-friend to have Sir John C. Hobhouse's sanction to have
-these papers before them, as the only bar to their production
existed in that house.
The CHAIRMAN said that he gave the Hon. Proprietor
who had last spoken credit for having made no immediate
use of the papers which had come into his possession. But
that silence was imposed upon him by the consciousness that
tl'.ey were obtained in a treacherous, clandestine, and sur-
rrepitious manner. A great deal hadbeen said about the al-
terations that had been made in the notice of motion which
had been placed in the hands of Mr. Villiers, but the usual
course had only been adopted, for it was never intended, and
the House rarely ordered that the papCrs of the secret office
should be given to the world. But Mr. Hume, in the after
session of Parliament, had moved for—not general papers,
but documents of a specific data, which he had
seen fit afterwards to withdraw without a division,
because he saw that the sentiments of the House
were in accordance with the opinion of Sir John.
Cam Hobhouse, whose opposition was founded upon a deter-
mination not to be coerced into the production of certain
papers merely because they were'in possession of some other
person. He (the Chairman) resisted this motion on the same
ground, and he prayed the proprietors not to sanction a
motion which contained an incentive to the production of
secret information originally obtained in a base, and treacher-
ous, and surreptitious manner.
Mr. TUCIIER (Deputy Chairman) supported the motion.
Much as he had admired the eloquence and ingenuity of his
Hon. Friend, he thought he had not, on the present
esecasion, met the question; which was, whether
each papers were, or were not, in existence. If
they were in existence he could see no public reastra why
they should not be produced for the satisfaction of the pro-
prietors. He should therefore vote for the motion,
Sir R. CAMPBELL (a director) was also in favour of pro-
ducing these papers.
Mr. SULLIVAN was proceeding to eeipp
'ben he was obliged to sit down fro o- ort the motion,
indisposition. I Mr. WIGRAM (a director) opposed the motion. He thought
that the Court should not sane:don the production of parti-
cul
ar papers which had beern obtained in a surreptitious I
manner.
Mr. CLARKE denied that the motion specified any parti-
oular documents. It, was a resolution commandin the pro-
sductions of papers hating reference to a
particular matter,
-and as such he steak support the motion.
Major OflPPeteer (a director) thought that they bad bad
quite suffieeent grounds submitted to them to warrant the
productica of these papers. They had, if he might be al-
lowed to misuse a word—they had tried, condemned, and
eletlarened the Raja, upon the evidence of certain papers, and
ha (Major Oliphant), as one of the judges to the condemns-
Eion of the Raja, demanded, and he had the right to demand,
other papers, if such evidence would set the innocence of the
&deposed Prince in a clear and satisfactory light. With these
'opinions he would support the motion of the lion. Proprietor. Sir JAMES LAW LUSIIINGTON (a Director) said that he
"could not consent to the motion. He would not attempt to
deny that these papers were in existence, and he would be
most happy when time came that they should be made public
irif they proved the innocence of the Rajah. Ile (Sir J. L.
eLueleington) would be the last man, in such a case, to sup- port an injustice.
Captain SHEPHZRD (a Director) supported the motion.
'The papers were refused because they had been obtained in a
surreptitious manner. He showed the weakness of their opi-
nions that this was the only plea advanced. It was mon-
strous, it was almost incredible, that justice, hould be refused
to this unfortunate Prince, because one of their own servants
kid been guilty of a gross misdemeanour.
Mr. D. SALOMONS was of opinion that no time was better
than the present for re-opening the question of the innocence
or guilt of the Rajah of Sahara, and he should therefore
:suggest to some of hi, friends, who held a strong opinion on
;this matter, that the question should be left in its position,
;mil examined into by the Governor. General of India.
Mr. MILLS (a director) did not think that this motion, if
-carried, would benefit the Rajah ; and he trusted, therefore.
that it would not be persevered in.
Colonel SYKIS (a director) would divide with the proposer
of the motion.
Mr. PLOWDEN (a director), on the ..ground that he was
desirous of ascertaining the truth would vote for the motion.
General ROBERTSON raid that the Raja was condemned
&unheard, and the case could not be therefore deemed a closed
'one. But this was not the place to decide the question. It
should be adjudicated on by Viscount Hardinge, who had
in the case of a Prince in the Punjaub lately evinced his de-
sire to do even handed justice. The case ( f the Raja was a
similar one, and he should vote for the motion.
Mr. WEEDING (a proprietor) opposed the motion.
Mr. GORDON supported the motion.
Mr. LEwis eeplied.
The Court then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion
40
Against it
38
Majority .....___ _

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND).
Lord G.BENTINCK (in continuation from our Afternoon
Edition) said—He had told them that since the month
of September—that was now six months-50,000 tons of
provisions had come into the port of Limerick. But in
one week, in the course of this year, 30,000 quarters of
corn went out of the port of Limerick; so that, after all,
what did these 50,000 tons of provisions amount to when
placed by the side of the 30,000 tons exported from the
same port?—(Hear.) But that was not all. It might
be true that these provisions were now imported by private
speculators; but what compensation was that for the deaths
of some 200,000 who had died from starvation, or from
pestilence growing out of starvation, whilst waiting
for this supply? But if the Government had had one-
tenth part off the sympathy shown by the people of
Boston, by America, for the starving people of Ireland,
all that food might have been supplied at least six
months ago. What did they see by the last returns?
They were told that, although the meal depots had been
diminished, yet, in truth, they had increased, and that it
was quite a mistake to argue that, because there were
now 24 depots, whereas there were 93 when they came
into office, that the amount of provisions distributed had
been in like manner diminished. He had looked at the
last calculation, and what was the value of the food dis •
tributed for the week ending the 6th of March by the
present Government? It was 262,0001., about 1,048,0001.
a month—but one-tenth part —scarcely an eleventh part
—of the food distributed by the late Government in the
month of June last, when the famine was not a ninth
part what it was at the present moment. It was under
these circumstances that he considered the Right Hon.
Gentleman, the Chief Secretary for Ireland, had little
cause to congratulate himself when he reflected upon the
hundreds of thousands of persons who had died under
his administration of affairs in Ireland.
Mr. WILLIAMS thought that statements of the ex-
penditure for Ireland should be weekly laid on the table
of the House, in order to show how much this country
was doing, and how little the landlords of Ireland were
doing for the relief of their own countrymen. In South
Wales one small town subscribed at a meeting 3,0001.
for the relief of the Irish distress, and at the different
assizes in that part of the kingdom large sums of money
had been subscribed for a similar object. This country
was doing much, but those on whom the people of Ire-
land had the greatest reason to look in their present
suffering were doing absolutely nothing.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the observations which bad been made by the Noble Lord
were merely repetitions of his speech the other evening.
The Government could not answer such repetitions,
which would merely occupy the House, and he hoped
that Hon. Members would allow the Bill to go on.
Mr. COLLETT said that he rose in consequence of
information which he had received on Saturday last
&Wm Wicklow, from a gentleman resident there. It was
stated to him that the preservation of the public peace
was very doubtful, in consequence of the discharge of
numerous men from the public works. Nearly 1,000
persons had been discharged, and they could now have
nothing but plunder to look to for the preservation of
life. He had felt it his duty, seeing the Secretary for
Ireland in his place, to rise and give the information as
he had received it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wished
to say one word. He had that day received a letter
from Colonel Jones, in the district referred to by the
Hon. Member, and he stated that the reduction of the
numbers employed upon the public works had passed off
very quietly, and no disturbance whatever was appre-
hended. It was impossible to answer for the state of the
whole country, but in general the districts in which
these reductions had taken place were perfectly quiet.
Major LAYARD thought that the attacks which had
been made upon the Government were most unjustifiable.
The Hun. Member for Shrewsbury had laid the blood
of the people upon the head of the Government, and
the Noble Lord who had lately spoken upon this sut.jcct
had laid the blood of the people upon the head of the
Noble Lord at the bead of the Government. A jury
in Ireland had, by their verdict, made the Noble Lord
answerable for the lives of the people, but then they
were in a state of excitement at seeing the people star-
ving around them. He thought that these attacks should
cease, and the Government be allowed to proceed with
the Bill.

PETITIONS ON PRIVATE BILLS.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(THIS DAY.)
(Before Mr. Examiner MAY.)
PORTSMOUTH PAVING,UNOPPOSED
LIGHTING, AND IM-
PROVEMENT.
This was a petition for additional provision. The cus-
tomary formal proofs were completed.
HOLYHEAD HARBOUR.
The customary proofs were also in this case submitted,
approved of, and completed.
OPPOSED.
EDINBURGH AND NORTHERN BRANCH FROM
BURNTISLAND TO DUNFERMLINE BRANCH, &c.
No. 2.
The further consideration of this case was postponed until
Friday (to-morrow), when the usual proofs will be entered
upon.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE

(THIS DAY.)
The Standing Orders' Committee met this day at the
usual hour for the dispatch of public business.
EDINBURGH AND PERTH RAILWAY.
This case, which it will he recollected stood adjourned
from Tuesday last, again came before the Committee.
A great niunber of witnesses were again examined; after
hearing a variety of proofs
The Committee adjourned without coming to any decision.
Grrat interest was manifested throughout the day to ascer-
tain the result.

VICE-CHANCERY.-(THIS DAY.)
(Before Vice-Chancellor Sir J. Wmiut.)
cosTonAntE v. COSTOBADIE.
The arguments in this case had not concluded at the rising
of the Court.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT,
(THIS EVENING.)

MOUSE OF LORDS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on theWoolsack
at Five o'clock.

DISTRESS IN SPITALFIELDS.
Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from the rector,
the churchwardens, and vestrymen of Christ Church,
Spitalfirlds, praying their Lordships to take into con-
sideration the distress in that parish, which was being
every day augmented by the distress prevalent in Ire-
land, and to legislate for the causes which operate on
that distress in Ireland. The Noble Lord said he
would not express any opinion on the prayer of the pe-
tition. Ile had already spoken on the subject of Irish
distress, and he had the gravest doubt whether they
could pass any permanent measures till they reached
fairer weather.

LAW OF SETTLEMENT.
The NOBLE and LEARNED LORD aISO presented a
petition from the rate-payers of Bradford, in Notting-
hamshire, against the law of settlement.
MARKETS AND FAIRS CLAUSES BILL.
On the motion of the Earl of CLARENDON, the
House went into committee on this Bal.
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY, after the Bill had
passed through Committee, was abont to report pro-
gress, when
Lord BROUGHAM interposed, and said he had pe-
titions from several companies whose Bills would be af-
fected by this measure to present before it passed, and
he did not know the occasion was so near, or he would
have presented them before. He had also a
clause framed by these companies, which he
would lay before his Noble Friend (Earl of Clarendon)
opposite, and he would take another opportunity to
bring the amendment befbre their Lordships, when the
Bill came to another stage. But, of course, the Noble
Earl must at present report progress.
Earl SHAFTESBURY then reported progress.
Their Lordships having resumed, the Commissioners'
Clauses and Waterworks Clauses Bills went through
Committee in order to he reported with amendments.
DRAINAGE OF LAND BILL.
On the motion for the third reading of this Bill,
Tne Earl of ELLENBOROUGH moved the insertion
of a clause, limiting the amount of money to be expended
in carrying out the Act.
Earl MINTO resisted the introduction of the clause,
believing that the Bill itself limited the amount to be
expended.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH said that there was no great
use in pressing the amendment ; he only moved it by
way of protest.
The amendment was then negatived without a division.
CONDUCT OF SIR EAIet)LEY WILMOTT.
Lord STANLEY rose to bring forward the motion of
which he. had given notice. Ile desired to obtain copies
cf the correspondence which had taken place between
the Colonial-office and the Governor of Van Diemen's
Land. Ilis motion was of an unusual character, yet as
he believed that no objection would be offered by the
Government, it would only be necessary to state
the nature of the motion, and the grounds
upon which he made it. He did not make
it of his own accord, but at the earnest desire of a public
servant, who complained, though 16,000 miles distant,
he had been made the victim of calumnious assertions
against his private and personal character, which
he declares to be wholly false and. calumnious.
He did not wish to enter into any disquisition on the
government of the colonies, ye; tie was ready to admit
that there could be no situfetion jn which the observance
of morality and decorum was more necessary than in that
of the Governor of a colony. While he had the honour
of holding e"ne office of Colonial Secretary, in 1845,
runaour'd respecting the conduct of Sir Nardley
the ilovernor of Van bleu:lea's Land, reached him.
These reports were, that such was the scandal-
ous misconduct of the Governor, and such was
the immorality prevailing at his house, that it
was impossible for any family to visit it. That state-
ment did not attract his attention; but having been
promulgated in this country, it reached the
colonies in the month of April, where to Soon
as it was known that such statements had been made,
in England, all the chief persons in the colonies, who
were in constant intercourse with the Governor, sent
back a counter statenaerA, which was received in
October last to this country.— (Hear.) it happened.
that when this refll-
Friend :weaeed was
sentt fromo
ffit he:
ocfo lsoenviree s..
His Right He-o.
uc
tart' ; he having also heard these rumours, and
having on other grounds been determined to remove
Sir Eardley Wilmot from the (Ace of Governor,
h‘se addressed a secret dispatch to the Governor, in which
he stated his reasons for his removal, adding, at the
same time, that he thought it necessary to inform him
that these rumours had reached him, and-that Weitz they
were satisfactorily refuted he would not be able
to advise her Majesty to employ Sir Eardley
Wilmot in any other colony. Sir Eardley immediately
wrote back that he was exceedingly happy to receive
the communication, and that he was prepared not only
to give the most peremptory and absolute denial to the
charges, but that he was determined to relnain on the
spot after he had been deprived of all authority,
and that he would there submit his conduct to the
strictest investigation. He did so, and a Committee
was appointed of the Executive Counsel, to which was
added the Governor of the Army and the Archdeacon.
The Committee reported that none of the charges
made were capable of being substantiated ; that
there was only one mode that tteald be adopted,
namely, to invite any perena who had charges
to make against the personal character of Sir
Eardly Wilmosr, to tome brwrrd and substantiate it ;
but, whilst reconneending this course, they admitted
that it was Open to objections, and would
.ri
lead to the creation of an i tot unlikely
tri;;;:.iiit. ptecedent. The
Coy Council that time had ;•!.c) power of calling witnesses,
made the inveßekation more difficult and uncer-
They, therefore, reported that in their opi-
nion it was not expedient to enter upon the inves-
tigation, and gave as their reasons itt
terms, that (luring their private and unielal intercourse
with Sir E. Wilmot for three ecars, nothing had trans-
pired to show that he had been gui4ty et any
Wvi_olatisen of the decencies of rtiVete life. It
head police
thme Colonial by the Commander of the Forces.
magistrte, the minister of the parish, and
cretary„ the Colonial Treasurer, the
A Petition, generally signed, was agreed to in
otherF,.
Hobart 1""lw, RhiiveTigtdo most unqualified con trac. ic tion to
cthheararceteporrotsf Sir E. \Ai been spread injurious to the
oglhotn He had the authority of
saying that the
eGentleman who had suc-
ceeded him in thellei
objectivn to themduction ofth e (Ur. Gl had no
e Mora- When)nffie

INFLUX OF PAUPERS INTO ENGLAND.
Lord SAN.DON wished to know whether greater
freedom of action could be given to the law which ena•
bled the authorities to remove the Irish paupers from
this country. These people were coming over by thou-
sands and tens of thousands, and unless some machinery
was introduced for the purpose, it would become impos-
sible to remove them from this country. There was a
great unwillingness at present to remove any of these
persons, while proper provisions did not exist for them
in Ireland, but he thought that in Committee upon this
13i11 a clause should be introduced for the purpose he
had mentioned.
Sir GEORGE GREY said that he had received
some information from Liverpool as to the difficulty of
removing these people. There did not seem to be any
very general disposition to send them away, while means
did not exist for their relief in Ireland. The Govern-
ment however proposed to introduce a vagrancy Bill,
and when that Bill was introduced into the House it
would afford a fitting opportunity for the insertion of
any such clause in it,
IRISH PAUPERS.
Mr. SIIAW wished toknow if the vast number of per-
sons rt turned as paupere coming fromlrelande as not over-
stated, and if many of them were not persona who had
Iprlaeclaenddt,hue'mhesnelinesreonalittab'etilliesyt hasdPleetlenPecrhsaregoemaibnlge
upon
a district in England for some time before.
Sir GEORGE GREY said, that upon inquiry the
returns would seem to be rather overstat( tt. Ab
6QvOO persona arrived annually from Ireland into l3rieou-
t
toi and Liverpool; Abeet 2'0,000 were emigrants to
America; and the other 40,000 were spread over the
country, and became in time entitled to relief;
Mr. NEWDEGATE had not intended to lay One
word on this subject; bitt he could not allow the obser-
vations of the Hon. Member -for Carlow to pass unno-
ticed. lie could not help thinking that the lion. Mem-
ber had snatched an opportunity of making unjust and
severe reflections upon the Noble Lord the Member for
Lynn. After all the Members on that side of the House
had determined not to continue the discussion, according
to the suggestion of the Government, the debate had
been renewed by the lion. Member, and an attack made
by him after it had been Understood that the subject had
been dropped, and yet he complained of attacks being
made epee the Government from that side of the House.
Mr. CARDWELL wished to remark upon one fact
connected with the observations of the Recorder for
Dublin. He had read a letter from a stipendiary magis-
trate in Liverpool, stating that in spite of the influx of
paupers there, there was no desire to remove them unless
some provision was made for their sustenance. The in-
flux Of paupers was at the rate of 2,000 per day, and in a
few days a fever hospital capable of containing 400
would be ready. That showed that seine measures were
being adopted for the relief of these people. The pro-
positione made by several lion. Members, applied rather
to the removal of a technical difficulty, which was, in
reality; met by the spirit of the existing law.
Mn P. BCROPE despaired of the Government being
able to solve the problem which laid before them, as to
the means of putting an end to the terrible state of
things which eXisted in Ireland, unless a sus-
pension of party attacks were made. The time of
the Government could not be occupied in answering
these ettecks, instead of attending to the business before
the house.
Mr. GROGAN said that the Government had in-
formed the House that a Bill for mendicancy and
vagrancy was about to be introduced, but he hoped that
the House, in considering it, would not pass such a
measure as would throw the support of the poor of a
whole district Upon a particular locality. Ho wished to
call the attention of the House to the charges brought
against that side of the House of unnecessarily attack-
ing the Goiternment. It must be borne in mind that
twice in that day the subject had originated from the
other side of the House. If the Government could not
control their own friends how could they expect to go
on undisturbed? He had observed that a great number
of officers had been appointed upon Relief Committees
in Ireland, and he wished to know how they were to
be paid ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the vagrancy Bill had
been prepared, but it would require a greet deal of at-
tention vu the part
. 6overnment, and was likely
'require a great deal of censideratien from the House.
The Bill would be shortl47 OA If siiy
eoeN e;;tte'el, any plan for the better preserva-
tion of the public peace he would be happy to give it
every attention. With regard to the preservation of the
public tranquillity, the accounts which were received
showed that there was no great cause for fear upon that
head. lie did not doubt that every gentleman connected
with Ireland would assist the Government iu the pre-
servation of public tranquillity.—(Hear.)
Mr. CALLAGHAN said that he wished to say a few
words before going into Committee, for it was rarely the
opportunity aas afforded to them of saying something.—
(Laughter.) There were very general complaints in
Ireland of the neglect of the Government in not pro-
viding seed for the laud. In many Lustauces the po•

..,ajority 0000 •••
• • 2
A considerable majority of the directorswere against the
motion, while the bulk of the proprietary were in its favour.
The result was received with much cheering.
Mr. D. SALOMONS postponed his motion relative to Lieut.
Waghorn's claims upon the East India Company.
The Court then eepara t ed.

- ----- ---
REGISTRY of BIRTHS and DEATHS
DURING THE WEEK ENDING MARCH 20.
Deaths registered in the week Births registered in the }reek.
Males ... ... ... 547 Males ... ... •.. 772
Females ~. ... 567 Females ... .. 745

Total

... 1,114

Total ... 1,517

TATTERSALL'S-THIS EVENING.

tiIX O'CLOCK.

NEWMARKET lIANDICA r
4 to 1 agat Euclid colt
5 to 1 agst Sting—taken
10 to 1 agst Footstool
2,000 GUINEAS STAMM,
7 to 1 agst The Liberator
20 to 1 agst PunchCHESTER CUP.
22 to 1 agst Antler
25 to 1 agat Newcourt
28 to 1 agat 'The Lamb
28 to 1 ags.c Dulcet
30 to 1 P.gst Mickey Free
40 to 1,
agst P
450 to 1 agst Plaudit
DERBY.
6 to 1 agst Van Tromp
10 to 1 agst Planet
20 to 1 agst Glentilt
25 to 1 agst Conyngham
25 to 1 agst The Liberator
30 to 1 agst Horn of Chase
50 to 1 agst Red Hart
50 to 1 agst Christopher
50 to 1 agst Black Dwarf
66 to 1 agst Philosopher
irRAILWAY COMMIIITES.
(THIS DAY.)

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
GROUP I.
The SePeet Committee, appointed to consider the merits of
the Bill., comprised in tais group, re-assembled in Room 30
at the usual hour this morning, Lord GnArivitax Somett-
al= 4.n the chair.
THE SOUTH EASTERN SCHEMES.
Mr. Robert Stecensoni confirmed the testimony of Mr.
'Bidder. In point of gradient. speed, and regniarity, there was
no comparison between the lines of the South Eastern and the
Brighton Companies. The Brighton lines rose 40 feet a
431311;ki,e_i and with the New Cross incline, it would be impos-
re"ad tot work them without two engines. With
the argument of making the lines
anWA btoTd tents, and relyiog to the improvements
the'
Asapproyed of itltaci overcome the difficulties, he entirely
?system just where it was
it would be leaving the railway
:affirm that bal roaldswas now. Such an argument went to
or better horses could 011:bight to be preferred when improved
the Brighton line the co e Obtained- With the gradients on
Samemtimunication with Dover would in
winter occupy the
Zmthat it did now on the cir-
r-uitous route, while in a
the
.saving would be very
trifling, and then it would be one]
....to light trains. Punctua-
etneeninttd mainly upon
lity in the running of trains dye
of the importance,
_gradients, and to convince the good
he might mention that nine accidents
gortiatdioef ten ari,:, I
by want of it. An engine adapted to bad
became comparatively useless upon the good. Theultvl'• '7-f °uld
line would be much used for continental expresa :el Xect
trains, and it was of the last importance that, the `-'lltBTlden
of such line should be the best the coulr ould
afford
With regard to the branch to Bromley, he considered it would
be a great inconvenience to place that local traffic upon a
through line. As an example, he might mention that it was
admitted on all hands that it would be highly inconve-
nient to accommodate Croydon traffic through the me-
dium of Brighton trains. He did not lay out the Croy-
don branch so much with the view of putting Partsmouth
in direct communication with Woolwich and other North Kent
districts, as to placing the South-Eastern Company upon an
independent footing with regard to the Brighton Company.
At present the South-Eastern obtained access into the metro-
rQ 1
h. along the Brighton line, and in the event of the two I

THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY E VENING, MARCH 25, 1847.

tion that the arrangements made in 1829 should not be al-
tered. All magistrates shoUld be ex officio members of the
boards of guerdians; and he intended to propose, at a
future stage, an amendment having that object in view.
He objected to the Government plan of not making all
the magistrates in an union ex officio members of those
boards.
Mr. BELLEW had always been in favour of such a
poor-law as the one proposed by the Government. He
considered, however, that the amendment would be pro-
ductive of much good on account of the great dissimilarity
between the number of Catholics and Protestants.
Sir J. WALSH said that in his opinion the religious
differences in Ireland would not form an insuperable bar
to any proper administration of the law, lion. Mem-
bers came forward and said that Cleholics and Protest-
ants could not sit at the same board without mutual
jealousy. Such an argument was erroneous, for %diet-
er( r might be the difference of religious opinion, he
was sure that measures had been already taken by the
House to remove that feeling. He admitted that with re-
gard to ex officio guardians, those who were so appointed,
from their station and education, took a very leading part in
the active administration of the affairs. Such a fact was
sometimes deprecated, but by no means justly so, for it
was generally desired by boards of guardians that such
should be the case, as considerable benefit and assistance
was derived from their interference.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said, he wished to bring the
attention of the House to the real bearing of the ques-
tion. That he considered to be aas whether or
not the land', rds of Ireland, from their past and
present conduct, were entitled to claim any in-
terest on the board of guardians or whether such would
be more likely to lead to a better working of the system.
Now, he would wish to know right they (the landlords)
of Ireland) had to demand any greater influence
on these boards than other individuals eligible
for the office of guardian. On a late occasion
he had brought forward a resolution which
contained the assertion that all the evils of
Ireland were to be traced to the system adopted by the
landlords of that country. In support of that assertion,
he hart adduced facts which Hon. Members had never
attempted to controvert. He was happy to hear an
Honourable Gentleman assert that the interests of
the landlord and tenant were identical. That was a
principle upon which hitherto the landlords of
Ireland had never acted. There was no guarantee
front their past conduct that the landlords of Ire•
laud would administer the law in the manlier in which
the people of this country would wish it to be admi-
nistered.
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN said that a great deal of dissa-
tisfaction had existed on this very measure. He thought
the proposal under consideration would do a great deal
of harm. Such a system of class legislation must be
the cause of much ill-feeling and dissatiefactien.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
Bill was as near as possible, founded on the law of Eng-
land. Now the law in this country in respect to ex-
officio guardians had been found to work well, and he
did not see why the same system should not operate as
advantageously in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) From a
considerable amount of experience of the working of
the English law, he was sure the measure. could
not be worked without a considerable infusion of
cx officio guardians. If the present law was carried
into effect there would be a greater number of meetings
of the poor-law guardians than before, and he was per-
suaded the elected guardians could not sufficiently attend
to the business. Hence there was a necessity for a
considerable number of ex officio guardians, who would
have leisure to attend to the administration of the law.
From a full consideration of all the circumstances, he
thought the clause ought to stand in its present form.
Mr D. BROWNE opposed the clause, because it
would give a decided preponderance to one class in
Ireland—the landlord class. lie opposed it also,
because it was a violation of the electoral principle.
He would much rather have a Coercion Bill than
such a Bill as the present ; inasmuch, as while coercion
was to put down insubordination in the country, the
present measure was one that would cause every kind
of ill-feeling and insubordination. No step could
be taken to make the Government more unpopu-
lar than forcing such a Bill through the House.
He would tell the Government, with the greatest respect,
that this clause would prevent the peaceable working of
the measure in Ireland.
Mr. FITZGERALD was quite ready to adopt
the principles of the Hon. Member " for Dublin
(Mr. Shaw), and trusted the Government would
reconsider this measure, and put this clause
into a modified form. The Hon. Member for
Northamptonshire had divided the Irish landlords into
two parties—that which was desirous of seeing all the
measures of the Government passed, and that which
was called the Irish party, and of that party he would
say that it had no object to serve in impeding the Inca
sures of Government. That party had issued certain
resolutions which he had certainly signed—(" Hear,
hear," from Mr. Shaw and others)—but in being
a party to those resolutions he must profess that
he was no violent revolutionist, although he was a
repealer, and he was therefore in no way adverse
to auy measures which were likely to benefit Ireland.
lie was not consulted on the deputation which waited
on the Noble Lord opposite (Lord G. Bentinck), but he
might take that opportunity of expressing his admira-
tion of the conduct of the Noble Lord, although he might
not be able to accede to his views. But he would say,
in joining in the opinion of a late writer, let them return
to the people their church property, Ic4 them return
all that had been taken away, and they would
have ample funds not only for the sustenance
of the Church, but fur the support of the poor, and for
the edit, ation of the people—(hear, hear)—and this
would have the greatest effect in putting down religious
differences. But there was another subject to which he
desired to call the attention of h( r Majesty's Govern-
ment, and that was the provision which was made under
this clause, for the support of a stipendiary magistracy,
and the payment of the several officers under the Bill.
The operation of the Bill was defective in many respects,
and he thought it was advisable to make some better
provision than this, especially for the safe carrying out
of the Bill.
Mr. LEFROY was quite satisfied with the clause in
the Bill, and did not think it would operate in the way
described by the Hon. Member for Kilkenny.
Mr. CALLAGHAN did not think the magistrates of
Ireland so unobjectionable in their bygone history as.to
warrant the Government in conferring on them any
additional privileges. He wished the ex officio guardians
were removed altogether. He ehoutcl for these reasons
support the amendment of his Hon. Friend the Member
for Kilkenny.—(Cries of "Divide, divide.")
Mr. V. STUAR supported the amendment,
Major LAYARD considered that the clause would
materially operate against the proper carrying out of
the Bill. The amendment he considered absolutely ne-
cessary, as there were in Ireland 2,065 Pro-
testant magistrates, and but 410 Roman Catholic
magistrate.t. In three of the counties there were
no local Roman Catholic magistrates. He thought,
therefore, that the people of Ireland would be dissatis-
fied with the Bill If the clause remained in it. In his
opinion it was the " Chandos" clause of the Bill. He
deprecated the conduct of the Noble Lord (Lord G.
Bentinck) in coming down' and making gross charges
against the Government.
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN supported the clause as
it stood.
Mr. B. ESCOTT rose, but owing to the noise that
prevailed, and the cries for a division, the purport of his
observations could not be heard in the gallery. Finding
the House disinclined to hear Lim, owing to its impatience
for a division, he moved that the Chairman report pro-
gress. The galleries were cleared, but as the lion.
Gentleman withdrew his motion, the Committee imme-
diately divided upon the amendment, when there ap-
peared—

tatoes kept for seed had rotted, or had been consumed
by the people, who were therefore wholly without seed.
Mr. BELLEW sail, he thought there should be but
one feeling on the present occasion, and that to unite
for the carrying out of those measures which would be
most advantageous to the country.
Sir H. BROOKE said, he hoped that her Majesty's
Government would not supply the landlords of Ireland
with seed, for he thought that they should put their
hands in their own pockets on an occasion like the
present. He thought that her Majesty's Government
had done as much as they had a right to do.
Mr. DILLON BROWNE said he thought that there
would be greater distress next year in consequence of a
little money not having been expended in supplying the
people with seed in an emergency like the present. He
had received several communications from Mayo, deny-
ing the statements that had been made in that House as
to the disinclination of the people in that quarter to cul-
tivate the land. The majority of the people had not
seed to do so—the landlords would not give, and the
Government, under the circumstances, should do so.
Sir WALTER JAMES said, under the very difficult
circumstances in which her Majesty's Government had
been placed, he did think it to he his duty to state his
opinion that as far as every effort and energy went all
had been done to alleviate the famishing poor of Ire-
land.—(lfear, hear.) He thought that it would have
been right for other Hon. Members as well as the Noble
Lord at the head cf her Majesty's Government to say
that every effort had been made to relieve the poor of
Ireland. The Hon. Gentleman who had last spoken had
accused the landlords of Ireland of not having supplied
the people with seed, but if they would look at some
correspondence that had taken place on this question he
might view the question in a different light. He held
in his hand a letter from a Mr. Mahon, who had offered
to supply his tenantry with seed, which they refused to
take. Ile must say that these circumstances were quite
sufficient to give a colour to the charges which Hon.
Gentlemen had brought forward. He was very sorry
to have been induced to prevent the House going into
Committee.
ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION BILL.
Mr. COLLETT said he wished to ask the Noble Lord
at the head of her Majesty's Government whether it
was his • intention to create four new bishops under the
Bill which he proposed to submit to the House?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that, in answer to the
Hon. Gentleman, he begged to state that on the first
Tuesday after the Easter holidays it was his intention to
bring the subject to which he alluded before the House,
and that it was intended to itske some change.
POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
The discussion on this Bill was then resumed.
Mr. HAMILTON said he begged to say that he did
not understand the Noble Lord's observations to be any-
thing else than that hopes were held forth which it was
not the intention of her Majesty's Government to fulfil.
The House then went into Committee on the Bill.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL moved that clause D, section
11. p. 4, which goes to enact that the number of ex
officio guardians of the poor shall be increased from one.
sit
nttiaoitnuegtdrhottchi Huactoi
annn.4
the
extended Gentlemenpre
s enphtoaocdri
reaeslenv
lguiltyavot
fourth to one-half of the whole number, he struck out. He
u al
dl
af
nilsitweoehl:asdiasttebpereceye:
sent, because the landlords of Ireland would not do their
duty without a Poor•lew Act. Yet what did they
do ? They handed over to them the power of taxing
themselves to just that extent they might wish. It
was not to be supposed that landlords would
punish themselves for conduct of which they did not
admit themselves to be guilty, and that punishment
which it was the professed object of the Bill to inflict
was prevented from falling on the proper parties.
The ex officio guardians amounted to one-fourth of the
whole number at the present time. Besides they had
considerable interest from the property they possessed.
He complained that the proposed arrangement would
create a fradulent constituency, and the whole business
of the board of guardians would pass into the hands of
the ex officio guardians. He did not think any case
whatever had been made out for the proposed increase
of the ex officio guardians. There had been no
cases of fraud or wanton prodigality established
against the elected guardians that they should
now be swamped. While they had regularly at
tended to their duties, front their connexion with the
mass of the people, they were better able to understand
their wants and provide for them. Throughout Ireland
there were 2,600 Protestant magistrates, and but 410
Catholic magistrates. This would show how
the proposed arrangement would operate. It had
been already shown that this difference in
numbers operated most injuriously in the working
of boards of guardians. The Honourable Member
referred to the proceedings of the North and South
Dublin Unions, and other Irish unions, in illustration of
the bigotted conduct of the ex-officio guardians under
the present law. If they, therefore, increased the
number of these guardians the evils referred to would
be greatly increased. The Noble Lord at the head of
the Government, in introducing the Bill, had expressed
a hope, that in future, parties in Ireland would be con-
ciliated towards each other, and would act for their
country's good. The sentiment was very creditable to
the Noble Lord, only he was sorry to say that
there was little ground to expect its realisation.
If he was required to give an illustration, he might refer
to the so called Irish party, who had met together with
every appearance of doing something for the benefit of
Ireland, but who were now broken up. If he had felt
—as they, the Irish Members in that House did—
the strain of the present distress in Ireland, he would
have called upon the louse to appropriate the funds of
a church of a minority, a very small minority in that
country. The Hon. Member for Kinsale (Mr. Watson)
had brought in a Bill to repeal a part of an Act of by-
gone years. The Bill only related to a very few words
which could Le construed as nothing but an insult to the
members of the Catholic Church. These words were
neither more nor less than superfluous verbiage for any
other purpose, for they had lost all effect as a legal en-
actment; and yet these gentlemen came down, and both
spoke and voted against the abolition of this last shred
of worn-out bigotry. And these were the men into
whose hands they were about to commit the guardian-
ship of the poor, and the education of the children of
the Roman Catholic population! Although they had thus
obtained a predominance in Ireland, they yet had been un-
able so far to command themselves as to refrain from
adopting this means of tyrannising over the majority of
the people of that country. The Roman Catholic Mem-
bers were in a small minority in that House, and they
had very little hope of carrying the amendment of this
clause; yet, it' it were not carried, he would give the Go-
vernment notice, and that frankly, that they would be
giving rise to a religious agitation such as they had
never yet seen, for the Irish Members felt deter-
mined to protect the helpless people over whose
interests it Was their duty to wateh, If there was
any advantage of salary, of emolument, or of trust,
in Heaven's name let it be given to the Establishment,
but let them not depress the Roman Catholic people.
There were two amendments ; one provided that there
should be d iieptitatn Chapel, and the second was
the supervision of the education of the children of the
Roman Catholic population ; and if they passed the
Bill as it hoes good he Warned them that they would
be Rowing the seeds of a religious agitation which it was
sickening to the heart to anticipate. He had now passed
°Vet the Most painful part of the subject, Unfortunately,
he had very large details, but into them he would not
now enter ; end he would now turn to the political
Pirreesested this clause
ot.thisil
in its clause. If the Government
ts present shape they would be
giving the Irish landlords the opportunity of sealing up
their pockets more closely than ever, and if it were per-
severed in he gave the Hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. P.
Scrope)
.warning that he would fail in both of his ex-
pectations. Ile would fail in obtaining the collection of the
rate, and he would fail in the repression of these agrarian
outrages which bad always resulted from these imposi-
tions on the Irish people. It was his firm belief that so
far from repressing these outrages, it would have the
effect of increasing them, and not only would the assas-
sin be alert on his midnight prowls, but he would be
seen in open day ready to commit those murders which
were equally aligning to the mind and discreditable to
the law by which they were occasioned, He trusted,
therefore, that the Government would not persist lii
the adoption of this clause without first referring it to a
Select Committee to inquire into the effects which were
likely to follow its incorporation into the Bill.
Sir G. GREY agreed with the lion. Member for Kil-
kenny that the rights of conscience of the people of Ire-
land should be respected, and everyreasonable precaution
taken against their infringement. In proposing this
clause, however, the Government never dreamt that it
would have the effect which the Hon. Gentleman anti-
cipated. He regretted that the introduction of it should
have given occasion to a discussion involving religious
considerations. He respected his feeling of attach-
ment to the Church to which he belonged, and he
liberty. Bat her Majesty's
agreed with him that every proper precaution should be
taken against its members being subjected to any in-
fringement of their religions Government thought that the religious differences which
existed in that country would be removed by the pre-
sent law, The Hon. Gentleman rested his objection to
the clause on religiousgrounds, but he drew his inferencea
as to the probable working of the clause from the actual
state of things in Ireland at that moment. lie stated
e,
that,6 speaking generally, the greater number of ex.
it't •
o guardians in Ireland were Protestants ; and the
consequence would be, that tyranny would be exercised
over the inmates of workhouses who were Roman
Catholics, by the influence of these magistrates. He
thought that, by the alteration proposed in the clause,
there would be far less opportunity afforded for
the exercise of religious interfereece.—(llear, hear.)
By the operation of the clause the present partial se-
lection of el.o.Aio guardians would be put an end to, as
the Roman Catholic magistrates who might be resident
in the enien would have the privilege of becoming ex-
officio guardians. In England all the justices re-
sident in the union were ex officio
a thought, that when it was nd it was guardians,
pro-
posed to increase the burdens on property for
the relief of the poor, it was but right there sLeuld be an
increase in the representation of that property on which
would fall a large
proportion of the rates. In the
ceee 9f ell tenements above 41. oise-half of the rate, and
f.dilaidefethly more than one-half, was paid
by the tenant, and afterwards deducted from the rent.
Hip trusted the clause would not be productive of the
euecls by the Hon. Gentleman, but if so, he
thought it much better to meet the case by a special en-
actment than by any indirect means—by limiting the
number of ex-officio guardians.
Mr. SHAW did agree with the Hon. Member for
Kilkenny, that the clause would have the effect antici-
pated by him. Ile deprecated the ;introduction of any
thing having a tendency to introduce religious discus-
sion. With regard to the censure of the lion. Gentle-
man with regard to his opposition, and that of some
of the "Irish Party," to the Bill for the removal
of the disabilities of the Roman Catholics introduced by
the lion. Member for Kinsale, he wished to state that his
Tote °nth" "cud= vras entirely influenced by his convic.

For the clause 154
For the amendment

Majority in favour of the clause ... —l2B
Mr. SHAW then moved that the justices resident in
the poor-law unions shall be ex officio members of the
board of guardians of such unions. And whereas, under
the provisions of the said Act of the first and second year
of her Majesty's reign, tithe composition is liable to be
rated only as and with the hereditaments upon which
sucn euniposition is charged, and it is expedient that
such provisioilS shall be amended : be it therefore
enacted, that from and afar the passing of this Act, com-
position for tithe, or rent charge in lieu thereof,
shall be deemed to be a separate rateable hereditament
under the said Act, and shall be distinctly rated as such.
And be it enacted, that in all cases of rent charge in
lieu of impropriate tithes, the annual amount of such rent
charge, after deducting therefrom all rates, taxes, and
public charges, if any, imposed on the owner in respect
thereof, shall be deemed the net annual value thereof ;
and that in all cases of rent, charge in lieu of tithes,
payable to any spiritual person, the net annual value
thereof upon which the rats for the relief of the poor,
under the said recited Act or this Act shall be
made, shall be deemed to be the amount of such rent
charge or composition, as ascertained and valued by the
Ecclesiastical Commissioners of Ireland, for the purpose
of a certain tax or assessment upon Church property,
under an Act passed in the third and fourth year of the
reign of his late Majesty King William IV., intituled
"Au Act to alter and amend the laws relating to the
Church Temporalities of Ireland," after the deduc-
tions and allowances therein directed to be made, and
after deducting also the portion of the assessment or
tax chargeable in respect of such rent charge, under the
said Act. And be it enacted, that the rate made upon
each rent charge or composition for tithe, shall be paid
by the 'Arson in the receipt or enjoyment thereof, and
may be recovered by all the ways and means by which
any rate made on any lessor may be recovered. And be
it enacted, that from and after the passing of
this Act, the net annual value of all rateable heredita-
ments, other than rent charge or composition for
tithe shall be deemed to be the rent for which, one
year with another, the same might, in their actual state,
be reasonably expected to let from year to year, all the
rates, taxes, and public charges, if any, and the probable
average cost of repairs, insurance, and the other ex-
penses necessary to maintain the hereditaments in their
.tetual state, and the rent charge or composition for tithe
beini;
Lord J 01-
value, to ..
he paid by the tenant.
assumed, for the purpose of estimating such annual
not be a majority of ex officio guar rsans,
and the jealousy ii;Trehended by the Hon. Member
would not exist with respect to their
numbers. N RUSSELL said, that as the Bill at
sent there could
amendment.
Mr. SHAW consented to withdraw the clause.
After a few words from Sir W. JAMES, 01
e word
hoped that the Hon. Member would withdraw the
He
Mr. J. O'CONNELL moved, that after
"magistrate," the words " whether for couklty or
borough" should be inserted.
After a few words from Mr. Smith O'Brien, J.
O'Connell, and Mr. Morgan J. O'Connell,
Mr. P. HOWARD said he
thought
the alteration in
the poor-law would give more power to the ex officu9
guardians than any other measure.

Mr. O'CONNELL said that, after the decision which
had been come to, he did not expect much support to his
present proceeding. Still, that the people of Ireland
might know who were for them, 'and who were against
. their, rights, he must put them again to the necessity of
another division.
The gallery was then cleared for a division, when there
appeared—
For the clause .
Against it
Majority in favour of the clause
On the 12th clause being put,
Mr. VERNON SMITH said that under the 78th
clause there was a power to enforce the orders of
the Board of Guardians, and, he did not therefere see
that there was any security for obtaining the rates. He
should therefore move for the insertion of words which
should refer to the 78th section of the Irish Poor-law
Act, and giving them power to levy the penalties
made payable under the 102 d section of that Act. He
thought that this was a great deal better than giving
power to dissolve the board of guardians, which, under
the present phase of the Bill, the Commissioners would
possess. At present there was no efficient control, and
the penalty imposed was not likely to be in any way in
strumental in enforcing the provisions of the Act. He
would rather, therefore, that words should be introduced
for that effect.
Sir G. GREY said the only difference between the
present clause of the present Act and that to which the
lion. Member had referred, was, that in the former case
the Commissioners had simply the power of dissolving
the board of guardians, while under the present Bill they
could, without dissolving the board, impose a penalty- of
20/. for non compliance with their orders.
Mr. HAMILTON said that the Committee should not
legislate on this Bill as if the boards of guardians in
Ireland had not done their duty. By a report of the
Poor-law Commissioner for the year ending 31st
December, 1845, it was stated that the general condition
of the unions was never more satisfactory. When such
general censure was poured out on them. lie thought
it right to state this fact.
Mr. V. SMITH thought it was strange to see such a
large amount of arrears in the rates. If the board of
guardians had done their duty, either this was the fgult
of the board of guardians, or the rate could not be raised in
Ireland. They must adopt either the one or the other
alternative.
Mr. SHAW defended' the -board of guardians. He
thought, with regard to the rates, that in many cases it
was wholly impossible to raise them, owing to the desti-
tution which prevailed. He was of opinion that,
under the out-doer relief principle lately adopted,
it would be found wholly impossible in many
parts of Ireland to collect the rates, and he now warned
the House of the results which would attend the ope-
ration of this Bill. The law they were then about to
pass could not be carried into effect in the western coun-
ties of Ireland.
Mr. ARCHBOLD said, the expense of these poor
houses was not very great.
Mr. POULETT SCROPE said, there were many
great proprietors who had not paid one farthing of
money for which they had been rated, and he thought
that the payment of their arrears should be enforced.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
thought his Right Honourable Friend would find
it very difficult to oppose this Bill on such
grounds. If any Honourable Gentleman would take
the trouble to read the correspondence on this subject
would be convinced of what he asserted. He trusted,
therefore, that his Hon. Friend would not persevere in
his present course.
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN could not, in justice to
Ireland, act in any other way than he had done.
Mr. P. SCROPE said if any one bad read the blue
books respecting the workhouses and the raising of the
rates, he would find the truth of what he bad stated
about the non-payment of the rates. All that he had
stated about Lord Lucan and others would be found
perfectly true.

133

Mr. SHAW could not agree with the Hon. Member
who had just spoken.
Mr. BELLEW entirely differed from the view taken,
and the statements made, by the Right Hon. Recorder
for Dublin.

Mr. SHAW explained.
Mr. V. SMITH would not divide upon the clause
after what had fallen from the Right Hon. the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer.
The amendment was negatived without a division, and
clauses 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, and 17 were agreed to.
Mr. SHAW wished to know whether Government
would proceed further with the Bill this evening?
Sir GEORGE GREY replied that he was ready to go
on up to half-past six.
Mr. SHA W said, in that case, he would proceed to
move his amendment, of which he had given notice
namely, " That the justices resident in the Poor-law
unions shall be ex-dlicio members of the board of guar-
dians of such unions."

On the clause being brought up,
Sir G. GREY said that the Irish title to property was
placed precisely on the same footing as English pro
perty in this country. The next clause provided for the
deficiency that had been felt by the lion. Recorder fur
Dublin. But there was one difficult;., and that was
the vagueness which existed as to the declaration for
where a curate was necessary and where he was not.
If he would allow the principle of the law to be assimi-
lated to that of England, he had no objection to accede
to the change.
Mr. HANIILTON said that the Ecclesiastical Com-
missioners had to pay the rates on the monies which
hey collected for that purpose, so that an incumbent had
to pay to the poor-rates twice for his income. lle had
to pay for the amounts levied for the improvement of his
glebe house, and again for the stipend which be gave to
his curate. He thought, therefore, that it would be
well if the Government wouli take this matter into
consideration, for by changing the plan they would pre-
vent a great injustice.
After some further observations from several Hon.
Members,

The clause was withdrawn until the bringing up 01
he report.

The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
to House adjourned at a Quarter to Seven o'clock.

SINGAPORE.
(From the Singapore Free Press, Feb. 6.)
Singapore, in the moi:th which has elapsed since the
' last issue of our Overland, has not presented any
striking incidents for comment, affairs having run on in
an even course. The junks from China have begun to
' arrive, but at this early period it cannot yet be known
whether there will be any great decrease in their num-
bers or not; although in those which have already
arrived, a very considerable alteration in the value of
their cargoes, compared with former years, has been
manifested; the articles brought by them being of con-
siderably less value than in former sasons.
OCCUPATION OF LABUAN.
On Tuesday last her Majesty's ship Iris, Captain
Mundy, arrived from Borneo, bringing accounts of the
Island of Labuan having been at last formally taken
possession of by the British Crown. The Iris arrived
at Labuan on the 18th ult., and operations were imme-
diately commenced by clearing a space about three
times the size of the Singapore Esplanade. On the
24th the British flag was hoisted on the island in
presence of many- Malays from Bruni, &c., who
appeared to be highly delighted with the proceedings.
The proper salutes were fired from cannon which had
been brought ashore, and from the Iris and Wolf. The
natives, we understand are exceedingly anxious to be al-
lowed to settle upon Labuan, so that as soon as permis-
sion is given to that effect, we may expect to see a large
population speedily gathered together.
We regret to hear that Captain Gordon, of her Ma-
jesty's ship Wolf, died while at Labuan of jungle fever,
and that a number of persons belonging to that vessel
and the Iris are also suffering from sickness. Unneces-
sary exposure and over-exertion are thought to be the
cause of this sickness, but which has no doubt been
partly, if not wholly, caused by the unwholesome miasma
produced by the clearing of the jungle. There have
been many instances in Penang and elsewhere of mor-
tality arising from persons inhabiting houses built on
ground where the forest has been newly cleared, which
in all probability, would not have occurred had a suffi-
cient time been allowed to elapse after the clearingof the
ground, before building, so as to permit the miasma
arising from the newly-uncovered ground, as well as from
the decayed jungle, to be effectually dissipated.—Singa-
pore Free Press, Jan. 21.

CMAIIRAIN BAR AND BOILER PLATE WORKS.—
We are happy to hear that the result of the experiment
mado at these works, for the manufacture of boiler
plates, is no longer problematical. Mr. John Hughes,
the engineer of Pillgwenlly, has made several boilers
with the Cwmbrain plates, and speaks of their quality
in the highest terms. It is a singular circumstance, that
the two buoys put down near the new South Wales
Railway bridge, over the river Usk, at Newport, were
made by Mr. Hughes, with some of the first plate manu-
factured at the Cwmbrain works; and if a date were now
put upon them, they would offer a lasting record of the
year in which these works were established. We hear
that the plates have already been successfully introduced
into the markets of London, Liverpool, Glasgow, and
Bristol.—Monmouthshire Merlin.