The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-05 00:00:00

AIILI.BANK PENITENTIARY.

Mr. B. ESCOTT, in reference to the report which he
had drawn up, as one of the Mil'bank Penitentiary
Commissioners, wished to call the attention of the Hight
lion. Gentleman (Sir George Grey) to the matter in
question. The Right Honourable Gentleman had
refused to receive his report, differing as it did
from the report of the other two Commissioners, but he
expressed himself willing to receive the substance of it
in the shape of a letter. lie (Mr. B. Escott)
objected to do so, and in order to be satisfied
that he had acted right he had taken the
ad% ice of two eminent members of the bar.
The first Learned Gentleman applied to was of opinion
he had done perfectly right, but in order to be sure that
he was right, he next took the opinion of Mr. Sergeant
Manning. That opinion was confirmatory of the first.
Under these circumstances he (Mr. Escott) mustpersevere
in sending in the report.
Mr. DUNCOMBE said that neither the House or the
public were in possession of the report twice sent and
twice rejected by the punctilio of the Home Secretary.
He should move that the report be brought up and laid
upon the table.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir GEORGE GREY said he was quite ashamed to
delay the House by repeating the arguments he has al-
ready advanced respecting the practise adhered to in re-
ceiving reports of Commissioners who did not join in a
common report. He did expect that the Hon. Member
would have pat it in his power to have laid the document
before the House verbatim et literatim, the same merely
altering the commencement and the termination. He
had merely to say, that no such document as had been
moved for, was in his possession.
Mr. B. ESCOTT here rose, and placed a document
in the hands of Sir George Grey, who threw it from
him upon the table, and Mr. Escutt retired.
Mr. HUME said that it was a pity that the House
should divide upon such a subject. The Hon. Gentle-
man must know that her Majesty's Government had
pursued a certain course from time immemorial, and that
they could not now depart from that course. The Hon.
Gentleman could not blame them for not doing that
which was not according to practice. The document
should be read as a letter instead of being read as a
report._._________

Mr. O'CONNELL thought it unnecessary to divide
the House upon such a subject.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE did not understand now in
what light the Right Hon. Gentleman held the document
of which he was in possession.
Sir GEORGE GREY said that he was in possession
of a paper placed in his hands in a very unusual manner,
and really, at the present moment, in the discharge of
the duties of the office he held, and as a Member of that
House, he had not as yet been able to read one word
of it.

Mr. T. S. DUNCOMBE said that he should withdraw
the motion, and bring it forward at some future period.
Mr. B. ESCO l'T assured the Right Hon. Gentleman
that nothing was so far from his intention as to do
anything disrespectful or out of the usual course. He
was content to refer it to the highest legal authorities
and take their opinions upon it. The House would re-
member that the Right Hon. Gentleman gave it as a
reason for not laying the paper before tae House that he
was not in possession of it, and it was that statement
which induced him to act as he had done.
The motion was then withdrawn.
CHARITABLE TRUSTS.

Mr. lIUME wished to ask the Right lion. Secretary
for the Home Department a question, of which he had
given notice. He wished to know whether they were
prepared to take measures this session to regulate the
public charities.

Sir GEORGE GREY stated that the question was
already under the consideration of the Lord Chancellor.
DESTITUTE PERSONS (IRELAND) ADVANCES

BILL.
On the order of the day for bringing up the report on
this Bill being read,
Lord CLEMENTS wished to call the attention of
her Majesty's Government to the Irish charities which
were at present lying dormant. He would name a few
of these charities. There was the Irish Peasantry So-
ciety, and the British and Irish Ladies' Society, both of
which had received subscriptions to a very large
amout, The British and Irish Ladies' Society lad
received the sum of 12,3001. from the subscriptions
of 1822, when the last famine visited Ireland,
There was another society which had received sub-
scriptions to a similar amount. There was also a
handsome subscription collected in the City of Dublin,
by a society, which afterwards dissolved itself, leaving a
large balance in the Bank of Ireland. Now, these
funds could not be touched, unless by an Act of
Parliament, and when they were called upon for ad-
vances to meet the destitution which prevailed in Ire-
land, he wished her Majesty's Government to look
after the funds. One society, called the Repro-
ductive Society, had a large sum to their account
He would not at present call the attention of the House
to the Destitute Persons' Bill; but he would say, that
there were divers provisions in that Bill which would
render it ineffectual, and still more difficult of management.
the present system of public works. He had asked the
Chancellor of the Exchequer last night what Govern-
ment intended to do to provide employment, and was
informed, that it was proposed to do so by the Labour
Employment (Ireland) Bill. He did not know whether
Government was aware of what would be required to
carry out that measure. There were 2,050 electoral
divisions in Ireland. They would also require a staff
for each of these electoral divisions, which would be
under the control of a central committee, of which the
Lord Lieutenant was the head. He thought that was
impracticable, and he would beg of her Majesty's Go-
vernment to reconsider that Bill. He gave the Govern-
ment full credit for sincerity,:but he did not think this
measure practicable. It would be necessary to form new
districts throughout the land, and this would require
some persons of considerable local information. Ile did
not see that it would be possible for the Lord Lieutenant,
with the machinery of the present Bill, to come to a
just decision. He bad no objection to the names
of Colonel Jones, and Mr. Redington, and
Colonel M'Gregor being introduced as members of
the board, but it would be impossible for them (were
they giving every attention to the measure, and he had
no doubt they would do so as far as in them la)) to
superintend efficiently the working of an extensive
measure of this kind.
In answer to a question from Mr. WILLIAMS, in re-
ference to the way the funds would be advanced,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
could only repeat what he had stated before. The ad
vances would be made from the Consolidated Fund ,
300,000/. was proposed now, and when more was re-
qaired, ho would come down to the House, and ask
them for a vote. The money would be voted from time
to time, as it was required.
Tce report was then brought up and received.
DESTITUTE RELIEF
.(IRELAND) BILL.
The order of the day for going into Committee upon
the Destitute Relief (Ireland) Bill was then read.
On the motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair,
Mr. MUTT rose and said that he was anxious to say
a few words on the subject of the distress in Ireland.
He entirely concurred with his Honourable Friend in
lamenting that the Government should have adverted to
the subject of emigration in somewhat disparaging terms,
lie lamented it the more, as he looked upon it
as one—if not the only means—by which
the country could be rescued from the terrible
calamities which were impending over theta.—(Hear.)
There were in Ireland upwards of 1,500,000 heads of
families, who maintained themselves on the verge of
starvation, their wages varying . from 2s. to 2s. 6d. per
week, and a small portion of potatoe
_land, whilst, in
order to give them the coarsest and cheapest bread, it
was necessary that they should have from 7s. t
Bs. per week. Seven shillings were scarcely

sufficient, and yet the whole rental of Ireland, which
was barely ten millions, was barely enough to support
them upon the grossest description of food. Even sup-
posing that every source of income was sunk, it would
not give more than seven shillings per week
to each of the labouring population of Ireland.
The feet was, that it was utterly impossible for Ireland
to meet 'the demand of its population, from the destruc-
tion of the potato crop. Let them say what they might,
or do what they might, a poor-law giving a right to
out-door relief could never be carried into effect in Ire-
land—and for this reason, that the gross revenue from
the soil would be utterly insufficient for the destitution
which it would be called upon to relieve. The acreable
production guf England was four times as
great as the acreable production of Ireland. Why
then, he would ask, did this disparity
exist? The soil of Ireland was not less fertile
than the roil of England, perhaps it was more so. It could
not, therefore, be attribuatable to that cause. The reason
he thought must be the indifferent system of agriculture
which existed in Ireland, and until an improvement
took place in this respect, he was afraid that
this disparity would still exist. The minu:e
subdivision of the land in Ireland also
presented insuperable obstacles to improvement. He
found, by a report laid on the table of the House,
that the whole extent of Ireland was cut up into
small holdings of from one rood to ten acres. Now,
he would ark what sub soiling could take place, what
drainage could be made, or u hat rotation of crops
could be put down under such a system ?
(LEFT SPEAKING

FOOD RIOTS IN THE NORTII-MILITARY MOTE •
MENTS —The outbreaks which have recently occurred in se-
veral of the northern counties,_has led to the departure of a
large body of troops from this city, in order to aid the local
authorities in preserving peace. On Thursday morning a de-
tachment of eighty men of the 76th Regiment marched from
the Castle to Granton l'ier, where they embarked on board
the steamer for Aberdeen; and on the following day other
fifty men of the same corps, under Captain Dennis, left
Granton, per steamer, for the same destination. In addition
to the above, another 100 men of the 76th embarked on
Sunday morning on board the Bonnie Dundee steamer, for
Burghead, under the command of Brevet-Major Scott, with
Captain Flannaghan and Lieutenant Large. Yesterday
afternoon eighty men of the 74th arrived, per railway, :from
Glasgow, to take a chard in the duties at the Castle during
the absence of the other detachments from the 76th—Edin-
burgh Ache, ther.

A black hare was lately shot in the parish of Den-
ham ; it was full-grown, and the fur was the finest glossy
black.

The Lord. Advocate cf Scotland had an interview yester-
day with the Right Hon. T. Milner Gibson.
PILL, FEB. 3.—The Princess Royal, Manning, of and from
Cork, with live stock, drove ashore on the mud, above Portia-
head this morning, and lost anchor and chain.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 4.
RAILWAYS IN IRELAND.

Lord GEORGE BENTINCK (in continuation) said—
He would take the Waterford and Limerick Railway.
Now, the position of the Waterford and Limerick Rail-
way was this : it was estimated that the cost of the
railway would be 750,0001., but they had taken power to
borrow 250,0001. more, and he was assured, from the gene-
ral experience of all railways which had been constructed
in this country and in Scotland, that he should not be
safe, unless he estimated the amount of the cost of the
railway not only the estimated capital but also of the
loans which they had power to take. Ile assumed,
therefore, that the Waterford and Limerick Railway
would cost 1,000,0001. sterling before it was emi-
r pleted. They had already expended 324,000/. in the
construction of different works—(Hear, hear)—
but they were stopped for want of money, and
the consequence was, that though 271. 10s. had - been
paid up of each 50/. share, those shares were at from
12 to 14 discount. So that, in point of fact,
the market value of the 324,000/. so expended
on the Waterford and Limerick Railway was 162,000/.
Now, under his proposition, it would not be
necessary to make any further vain calls on
the shareholders, as the company would be entitled at
once to demand from the Government a loan
.equal to
648,0004 What would be the effect of this ?
It had been estimated that the traffic of the
railway would admit of a dividend on a capital
of 750,000/. of 64 per cent. But considering that the
true expenditure would be not 750,0001., but 1,000,000/.
sterling ; that would give 5 per cent. as the probable
dividend on the entire cost of the railway. But
her Majesty's Government came in and lent
them two-thirds of their capital at 34 per cent.
The result would be that the 324,0001. share capital
already expended, would have a fair and early prospect
of a dividend of 8 per cent. The effect of such
a course would be, that the shares of that Com-
pany, instead of being dead in the market,
instead of being at a discount of - 162.0001.,
would instantly rise to a premium, and the landed
proprietary and tenantry of Ireland being unable to
meet the calls upon them, would be enabled to
get rid of their shares at a premium, and
employ the money so obtained in the improvement of
their estates, and in giving employment to the people
of Ireland ; so that his propositions would have a double
effect ; it would at once set to work an immense
number of persons, and it would enable the lauded
proprietors, who were now shareholders in the concern,
to make use of the money for the improvement of their
estates and the employment of the people. He
had a letter from Lord Glengall, stating that he
knew a railway company which, if they had money,
were prepared to employ 16,000 men.—(Hear, hear.)
In the counties of Kilkenny, Limerick, and Water-
ford, as well as in each of the four baronies, a
similar result would take place.—(Heir.) Now, in
each of these places the expenditure under the present-
ment sessions had been at the rate of 4,0001. per month
for the last three months, with every prospect of these
demands being continued.—(Cries of " hear, hear.")
And there was this additional objection to this expendi-
ture, that it was upon useless and unproductive works.
A magic influence had, however, come over the Govern-
meat, and they had allowed money to be advanced on
the earth-works of railways on the security of pre-
sentments. He thought the course he proposed,
—namely, to advance money on the security of railways
—would be much better than on the security of
land. The proposal of lending money to
railways in the security of land was made in 1839, and
when first proposed, was carried by a majority, but her
Majesty's Government would not assent to the
proposal. He considered this a wrong course,
and the result showed that he was right in
coming to such a conclusion, for while the lands along-
side of which railways passed were increased in value to
the amount of 1,000/. per cent., the land along the
old channels of communication remained stationary.
When he was upon this subject of the railways in the
southern districts of Ireland, it was only fair to state
that the Waterford and Limerick Railway Company
were prepared to employ 16,000 men upon their
works. But he would read the application made
by the Chairman of the Great Southern and
Western Railway Company to the Government,
on the 22d of May, of the last year. Mr. George Carr,
the chairman of the Great Southern and Western Rail-
way Company, addressed a letter to Sir Robert Peel,
in which he stated that, after consulting the contractors,
he found that, if they were accommodated with a sum
of 500,000/., they would undertake to give simultaneous
employment to many thousand persons in different
portions of their line, and the writer of the letter
added, that the utmost care would be taken in the
payment of the wages to adopt a system
of wise economy, while at the same time
a great extent of relief would be afforded to the popula-
tion of the different counties, and Government still would
be remunerated for the money advanced. He also inclosed
a copy of a letter which he had addressed to the
Secretary of Public Works in Ireland, and
after stating that the length of line was 200
miles, and that the dense population of the
towns along the line, from Templemore to Tipperary,
had long been known for their discontented condition,
and there was no means of alleviating this evil excepting
by an employment of the people. He might safely
assert, that 50,000 poor fellows were now starving
and idle, who would be placed in a condi-
tion of comparative comfort by the receipt of
wages which would render them and their families
happy during the most trying period of the year--
namely, the months of July and August. Now, he would
hare Hon. Members to reflect on this offer of the
Great Southern and Western Company to employ 50,000
labourers; it would have exhibited a true wisdom and a
true economy, and have prevented the necessity of now
being called upon to pay half the expenses of these
parochial presentments for the maintenance of the Irish
poor. In addition to this, he had a communication
from Mr. Garvan, a great contractor of Ireland, who
had taken contracts for three hundred miles of railway,
but he states that he was stopped on a hundred and two
miles out of the three hundred, partly in consequence
of not being able to get possession of the land, and
partly on account of the want of money to go on with
the works. He states, that if he were at liberty to pro-
ceed, he could, upon the next day, employ thirty thou-
sand men.—(Hear, hear.) It might, however, be said
that his proposal would only affect those counties
through which the railroads passed; but he begged to
tell the House, that out of the one thousand three hun-
dred and forty miles of railway for which Acts were
passed in the sessions of 1845 and 1846, and previous
to that, the result was, that there were but four coun-
ties in Ireland which would not be traversed by rail-
ways.—(Hear, hear, and cheers) Those counties were,
Mayo, Sligo, Galway, and Roscommon. There were
already before the house Bills for the extension
of a line from Athlone to Galway, which would traverse
one end of the county of Roscommon and pass through
the centre of Galway. This was a line which those in-
telligent gentlemen, Messrs. Bidder and Smith, who
were employed by Mr. Stephenson, said, that of all the
other projected lines of railway, this was of the greatest
importance to the welfare of that country, and a line
which would pay at least five per cent. to the share-
holders. There could not be a doubt, if this measure
were to pass, that another branch from the Midland and
Great Western Railway would be made, passing from
Longford to Sligo, through a very fine mineral district,
which, according to the report of the Railway Commis-
sioners in the year 1842, contained the finest description
of the richest and most luxuriant ore, but which could
not be worked at present for want of railway communi-
cation.—(Cheofs.) There was a Bill before the House
also for a line which would be carried on to Cavan
there would not then be a single county in Ireland
which would not be traversed by a railway.—(Hear.)
Acts had beets passed empowering companies to complete
1,522 miles of railway. There were before the House
at that moment Bills for 150 miles more, and there were
the lines which had already been carried out, making
together 1,970 miles of railway, of which 123 were made,
164 were in the course of construction, leaving 200 miles of
wargiu of railway to be allowed by the Railway cm.