The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-27 00:00:00

prices.—(Hear, hear.) We have discontinued, in con-
sequence, the eontineenev of h per cent, el 'eh Govern-
ment, h,rpt,d'ore. tie= Itrr-,.; the h'" .f g.
Under vote N:,. 3 there was an increase of 1,3401. ; this hi-
eluded ti,e steam department, and comprised 2,000/. for I °st-
age, and 1.2001. for clerks. I will not now go into the min r
points, but will confine myself to the principal items. And for
the same reason I will pass over votes 4 and 5. With regard to
No. 6, we propose to take 7,2911. for the if crease of the sala-
ries at home, 2,785/. for other parts of the inspection and
measurement of the docks, and 300/. to Mr. Grant, at the
Clarence Dock, as an indemnity to him till he is promoted,
when the allowance will cease. I will pass over
No. 7. For No. 8 we propose to take 8.3771. for
attendance iii the dockyarde, aed 3 2:o'. of that will be
for the inspection of the dockyards 2,070/. for tr,iiiing
in the dockyards, 2,965/. for the metal-mills at Chatham, by
which alone a saving of 6,000/. per annum will he effected in
onse,,uence of the work being done by Government. We
propose to add 10,000/. to the wages of the steam department
at Woolwich. That item may appear large, but the great
convenience which the accommodation will give to the great
necessity which exists of having persons to execute the works
required by Government steamers justify, in our judgment,
such an outlay. We have 735 men now employed in the
factory there. I find that in 1844-45 there were 27 steamers
repaired at Woolwich ; in 1845-46 there were 36 ; anti in
1846-47, during a period of nine months, 29 steamers. The
value of the work bone in these periods respeciively wa549,000/.,
58,000/ , and 76,0001. The value of the engines was 501. per
horse power, and the cost of repairs :31. per home power per
year, and if they had been done in a private establishment, the
cost of this 41,000 horse power would be 328,000/. You now
pay 60.000/. in wages, of which 10.000/. is more than the esti-
mate of last year. Mle.. vote 10 there was a decrease of
89,995/. There was a decrease in iron steam-boats of 78,000/.,
which consisted of contracts not yet completed. I will not go
into the question of building large steam-boats without further
trial, which has been referred to by the Hon. Baronet, but I
sincerely hope the experiments that may be made
will justify the good opinion formed of them. I have
now to come to No. 11. In this vote we propose
to have an increase of 32,719/. for new works. This will ap-
pear a large sum ; but it must be recollected that in former
years sums that were placed under votes 8,9, and 10, and ap-
peared in these votes respectively, were now collected under a
generic head, and placed in vote 11. Those only which related
specially to votes 8,9, and 10, were charged to those votes. If
the House will allow me, I shall now state in order, one at a
time, the other items which we propose. We have taken
167,0001. for Portsmouth, and I should think the steam basin
there will be ready in the month of May. We have taken
10,000/. to complete the works at Woolwich, and 27,600'. to
construct new marine barracks. For Plymouth we have taken
120,0001., for the basin and docks at Devonport 39,000'., and for
Haul-bow-line, near Cork, 10 000/. For Malta, where we have
a dock ready for the largest steamer, we purpose taking
10,01101. I think 1 have now finished all the points to which I
intended to refer in this statement, and I can only say that
though the expenditure may be very great, I do not see,
considering all the facts to which I have adverted—seeing
what every country is now doing, and that we are now paying
for the niggardliness of former years—that we can reduce the
estimates to a smaller amount. I think that the vote for
wages in dockyards, under a system of restriction, and
having a check upon the repairs, will tend ultimately to a
saving in this department. It is possible—certainly there will
be a reduction in the expense of iron steamers of 85,000/.
I hope that there will be some reduction in the estimates
for steam machinery in subsequent years, in consequence of the
change we are about to make. The system will be placed on
a better footing than it now stands upon, and the probability is
that, in a few years, these extraordinary expenses will en-
tirely disappear.—(Hear, hear. ) I believe that I have stated
to the House that there are 185,000/. of excess for the year
1845 and 1846, but the responsibility will not rest with us.
That sum shall constitute the first vote.
Admiral BOWLES, 'who was very imperfectly heard, de-
fended the Admiralty from the charges brought against it by
Sir C. Napier. He would wish to see as large a squadron
kept up in the year 1847 as had been maintained during the
past year, for the race of naval officers who had seen actual
war was now rapidly declining, and it was necessary that the
young naval officers should have opportunities of such exercise
as would enable them to keep up the national honour
in the event of a war. He objected also to the per-
nicious system of detaining ships at particular stations
for any length of time. Many ships had not the opportunity
of proper exercise in consequence of their being thus de-
tained, and the race of officers now growing up were thus
most materially injured, and hindered from acquiring a proper
knowledge of their profession.
Captain PECH ELL was glad to hear the observations which
had fallen from the Gallant Admiral, and that a new system
was to spring up which would effectually hinder that jobbing in
the dockyards which had hitherto prevailed. The Hon. Gen-
tlemen in his opening statement wished to show the reasons
for the measure of the estimate. The House did not require
that knowledge, for it was obvious to every person who took
up a newspaper that the measure was necessary ; but he should
be gled to know something about the condition of the squa-
drons on the coast of Africa. Those vessels were detained there
three years, and he thought that the system as at preset pur-
sues with regard to the capture of slaves was one fraught with
the grossest jobbing, for, what with fees and
other charges made in the Vice- Admiralty Coons,
very little found its way into the Exchequer of
the admiralty for the benefit of the seamen. He thought it
absolutely necessary that the system should be reformed. He
was also glad to hear that the salaries of the pursers in the
navy had been raised by the Government, for, in his opinion,
they were a most deserving class of officers ; but he was still of
epinion that the Government had not effectually carried out
the recommendation of the Commissioners with reference to
the higher class of officers. He would conclude his reference
to the masters and pursers, with the hope that the Hon Gen-
tleman below (Mr. Ward) would take their case into his most
serious consideraiion. There was another point to which he
would refer. They had done great injury to the service by the
indiscriminate admission of youths into the navy, without proper
inquiry. They had admitted a number of thieves and vagabonds
into the service. This was a matter which should be looked
into. With regard to the building of ships, he considered that
fair competition should be allowed, so that builders who were
competent might be induced to come forward and take a part
in the construction of the ships. They had also been promised
a reformation in the constitution of courts martial ; but from
recent cases which had taken place, this did not appear to have
been the case. Among these cases there was the one of the
captain of the Sphinx, which was lost off the Isle of Wight.
That officer was called on to criminate himself, and
had been degraded from his rank. All these
things showed that a revision was necessary. Now, that
they had had again another Reorm Ministry in, he thought
the question of Courts-martial should be fully inquired into,
and redress given. He had also to complain that the members
of the coast guard engaged on the west coast of Ireland were
not treated as they ought to be. At the present time, though
provisions in Ireland were excessively dear, and in many cases
difficult to be had for money, no advance in their pay had been
made, and no promotion was held out to them. He trusted
all the matters to which he had referred would command the
serious attention of the Government with the object of effect-
ing a reformation.
Dr. BOWRING congratulated the lion. Member (Mr.
Ward) for the improvement which was made in the arrange-
ment of the accounts. This would appear to have been done
in pursuance of the recommendation of the Committee of
Public Accounts, a few years ago. He said he was happy that
the principle had been adopted, partially in the public accounts,
of excluding all credits in aid of the departments ; and he
hoped that the column of credits would be entirely done away
with.
Mr. FITZROY wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman,
the Secretary for the;Adruiralty, whatwas the object of taking a
vote of 27,500 men, at a time when they had 4,030 men
more than the complement on the books. That was an excess
which they were not accustomed to have .on the books. He
did not think with many in England that the ships could be
manned and the harbours of refuge prepared all at a moment's
notice. Practical men knew that that was not so, but he did
thinklthat come of the minor details ought to be omitted. He
thought there ought to be 'some means got for coaling their
steam-ships. He understood that 100 tons was all they could
put aboard a s'ay. Now in that case an impediment might
easily be created in a time of war, and a steam fleet without
coals would become mere logs. He was also glad to hear the
Hon. Gentleman's plans with regard to the dockyards ; he
admired the principle of it, having had his attention specially
drawn to the dockyards while he was in the Admiralty; and
he would certainly give the measure his support when it was
brought in.
Atter a few words from Capiain BERKELEY,
Mr. WARD said he had just consulted with Lord John
Hay, under whose care a plan was being carried out for coaling
their steam vessels. He found that the construction of a Coal
Board would cost from 40,000/. to 50,0001., but they had
adopted ono of the old hulks, where they had put an engine on
board, and they were enabled to put 100 tons an hour on board
the vessels
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that while he held a place in
the Admiralty, he had never diminished the naval estimates,
except so far as that could be done without diminishing
the efficiency of the navy. ( Hear, hear.) hut he
had risen that moment to express his regret that there
should be an increase a constant increase in the
naval estimates ; and he heard the Hon. Gentleman with
alarm state that, in his opinion, the estimates for the present
year were not so large as they would yet require to be. But
he regretted one thieg—he very much regretted one delicate
point which had been touched upon by the Hon. Gentleman
he meant the payment of the men. The Hon. Gentleman
said it would be necessary to raise the wages of the seamen in
the Queen's service up to those given in the merchant service,
or near to them. But he (Sir J. Graham) entirely dissented
from that proposal. If they brought the Queen's service into
competition with the merchant service, the moment that some
new arrangement was made by the Government in her Ma-
jesty's service, a counter movement would be made in
the merchant service, and there could be no seeing
the end of the expence which it would entail
upon the country.—( Hear.) He thought it unhappy that
the subject had been mentioned at all, arid the subject, if
con-
sidered, would naturally bring on with it the consideration of
the marines and the army. He did not propose the postpone-
ment of it to a future day, for he entirely dissented from the
principle. Under such a system there would
and of boundlessld be opened up a
plan of boundless expense on the one hand,
expectation on the other, and he thought it could not be main-
tained even if it were to be entered upon. He did
hope that it would not be entered upon without the
sanction of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or, indeed,
witliout the sanction of the Government. He would not have
made these observations, but that it gave the Right lion. Gen-
tleman the opportunity of making an explanation of his views.
Mr. WARD said that the Right Hon. Baronet had entirely
misunderstood what had fallen from him. The Honourable
Member for Montrose had entered fully into the matter, and he
was quite aware of the itnportance of the subject, arid of the de-
licacy of the question which had been mooted, and he was at
the same time aware that such a step ought not to be taken
without the sanction of the Government. The Gallant Officer
had alluded to the number of • the desertions, and
the object which he (Mr. Ward) had in view
was, to offer such inducements to the seamen, that from
the common ranks the men might rise to be petty officers,
and thus by offering the inducement of promotion so to elevate
the moral character of the men as to have the advantage of a
better class in the navy. That was the question which lie had
mooted.

Sir J. GRAHAM had only spoken of the disadvantage of
confusing the positions of the petty officers and the seamen.
Mr. \YARD—To that he was alluding. He hought there
would be no difficulty whatever in arranging the plan. If they
allowed the seamen to rise in rank, they would give all the
inducement that was necessary for gating good men into the
service. That was the only question—he never contem-
plated anything further—for the House could not but be aware
that he could not carry out this design without the sanction of
the Government, and he did not at all intend to permanently
raise the wages of the seamen.
Sir C. NAPIER was much disappointed to hear the decla-
ration which had just been made by the flight Hon. Gentle-
man the Secretary of the Navy, for one of his main objects in
desiring this increase in the wages of the men and the petty
officers in the navy was, to oblige the merchants to raise the
wages of the persons in their employment. They wanted to
keep the men in the service, and how were they to do that
unless they gave them as good remuneration for their exertions
as they could obtain elsewhere. The labourer was always
worthy of his }tire. It was said that there were 51,00 j British
seamen engaged in America at the present moment, and it
was well known that the greater part of the mercantile
marine in America was being worked by British seamen. He