The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-23 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY 3TORNING, APRIL
.23, 1847.

subsisted for many years, might at least have been per-
mitted to go on for another year, without making it
the subject of special comment and accusation.—
(Hear, hear.) Now, that the Honourable Member for
Southwark (Sir William Molesworth), spoke ably in
avour of a general motion for a grant of money for
education, and he wished to carry that motion for aid to
the Roman Catholics as a part of this grant, I consider
that the framing of any minutes upon this subject re-
quires great care and consideration. Should they be
framed upon the ground of their being entirely Roman
Catholic schools for teaching Romon Catholic doctrines,
and having Roman Catholic inspection, I am sure if
they were so drawn up, a great amount of opposition
would be raised to the measure. Should they be framed
so ss to afford education in the same manner as in the
National Schools for Ireland, and aid granted to these
schools in the same manner as granted to those schools?
I am not quite sure that the Roman Catholic Bishops
of this country would approve of a measure brought
forward in that shape had it been proposed. lam sure
that some Catholics in Ireland, do object to such a
system, and have expressed great dissatisfaction with
the State education provided for the Irish people. I
therefore think, that on those grounds, it was necessary
for us to postpone this question for further consideration,
rather than to adopt a plan which might not have given
satisfaction. I agree with the Member for Yorkshire
and others, that we could not regard any measure as
permanent which did not include the Roman Catholics.
This, however, was not proposed to be a permanent
measure. In 1839, we introduced a great alteration,
in the appointment of inspectors to the schools.
The money had, up to that time, been
voted by the Treasury, and in consequence of the want
of any surveillance being exercised, a great deal of it
was thrown away. This, however, was remedied by the
change which was then introduced. We now propose to
change the system as regards pupil monitors, and to im-
prove the condition of the schoolmasters, so that we can-
not be supposed to consider this as a permanent or com-
plete system. I trust that, in the end, we may be able
to come to an arrangement by which we shall reconcile
the various differences, and lay the foundation of a per-
manent system.—(Hear, hear.) I trust that, seeing the
general, I may almost say the universal, opinion that has
been expressed as to the State providing the means of
education for the people, we shall be able to bring in a
Bill that will have the support of the country, and of
bath Houses of Parliament. The opinions, however,
which I have heard expressed, confirms me in the
opinion I entertain as to the propriety of the course the
Government have pursued on the present occasion. Had
we brought in a measure, and asked for a much larger
grant than now proposed, they would have put it out of
the power of the other House of Parliament, when
it came to consider it, to make any change in
the measure. This was the course adopted in the case of
the Maynooth grant. My own opinion is, that the state
of education and of opinion is not sufficiently ripe for
such a proceeding. When, however, the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite proposed the Bill, I supported him
on that occasion. But those questions cannot be dis-
posed of without consideration. They require delibe-
ration, ripening, and discussion, both in this House and
the country before they can be brought to a satisfactory
termination. I remember that with regard to the ques-
tion of the establishment of the Small Debts County
Courts Bill that measure was taken up time after time
by successive Governments, and was introduced in 1824
and 1825 ; it was not till 1846 that it was passed, and it
was only last month it came into actual operation. When
such difficulties, then, accompany the settlement of a
question in which there are no prejudices at work, and
in which no great variety of opinion can exist, it is not
too much to expect that on a question of this nature, in
which men's feelings are so deeply interested, and which
involves such diversity of opinions, that there should be
some delay in arriving at a satisfactory arrangement. I
think the course we have anopted has tended to bring out
many opinions that will assist in effecting this arrange-
ment, and has shown that this House is not unfavour-
able to the extension of education; and with regard to
many points on which considerable doubt and difficulty
rested, this debate has enabled us to arrive at something
like a clear and satisfactory decision. For instance, with
regard to the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman the
Member for Bath, that we should provide an education
for the people entirely secular, it is so entirely against
the opinions of this, and we may predict a future Par-
liament, that the chance of success from such a measure
is no longer questionable; and I do not think that the
future Ministers who are to be the successors of the
present Government, and to exceed them in liberality,
are likely to have a long tenure of power, if
schools entirely secular are to be established by
the State.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the
other points, there has been so much unanimity
expressed, and so much support—handsome and
generous support—given to the proposition of the
Government by the Noble Lord the Member
for Liverpool, the Member for Hertford, and others,
that I will only conclude by thanking them and the
House for the reception that has been given to this pro-
posal, and I trust we shall not disappointed in the
hopes we have formed of it.—(The Noble Lord resumed his seat amid loud cheers.)
Colonel SIBTHORP said that when he recollected how he
had been deceived by former Governments en questions of re-
ligion, he was cautious in placing much confidence in
any Government. The Noble Lord said this was
not to be a permanent measure—he thought so too. He
thought this was like other measures which had been lately
brought before them, and the experience of the past induced
him to be very careful in assenting to what he mild not but
consider as a snare and a trap, to cover some ulterior design.
(Laughter.)
" Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes."—( Laughter. )
He wished to see the people educated, as far as they possibly
could be, but he certainly would not agree to any further
grants ; and if the Hon. Member would imove the repeal of
the Act of 1839, he would cheerfully second the motion.
Sir ROBERT PEEL—Sir, although I feel it wholly un-
necessary to add anyehinr,s to the argument by which the motion
of the Noble Lord has been supported, yet I should be unwilling
to permit this House to proceed to a division, without shortly
stating the grounds upon which my concurrence will be given
to that motion. Considering the position ,which for five years
I held in the councils of the Crown—considering the con-
nexion I had with the appropriation of the educational vote,
during that period as a Member of the Committee of the
Council—considering the opposition which the Government has
had to encounter in proposing the measure, the main outline
and principles of which I cordially approve of, I think on
aocount of that opposition it is incumbent upon me not to
shrink from taking my full share in any unpopularity which
may attach to the support of this measure.----( Hear, hear. )
Sir, I al': 'erfeetly willing to admit that there are cersiderations
connected with this treasure which I think are deserving of
mature attention. In 1839, I fully shared in the objections
that were urged to proceeding by a tingle vote of this
House in reference to a matter of so great importance
as a scheme of general education, imperfect though I admit it
to have been. I still think those assertions were based upon a
sound foundation, as I consider it would have been a great
advantage to adhere to the ordinary coprse of submitting to
the deliberate judgment of the Route the regulations by which
the education of the people is proposed to be carried out.—
( Hear.) I think it is an evil to exclude the House of Lords
from an opportunity of a full consideration of this subject—
( Cheers)—of leaving to the House no alternative but a coin •
plete acquiescence or a peremptory rejection of the measure.—
(Hear.) But, Sir, with my view of the immense importance
of making some progress in the mitigation of the monstrous
evils which attend a neglect of public instruction—(Hear)—
forseeine. the probable consequences of insisting on the opinion
which egave in 1839 of refusing assent to any measure con-
nected with education, unless it had the Legislative
sanction of both Houses of Parliament in the shape of
an Act of Parliament. I will not now incur the risk of fur-
ther delay, by insisting on the objections which I urged in
1839. I feel that I could not, with propriety now insist upon
those objections. For the six years which have elapsed since
1539, there has not only been an acquiescence on every part,
but an acquiescence on the part of the House, in placing the
control of the grants in the hands of the Privy Council.--
(Hear.) In 1842, when the late Government assumed power,
the vote to the Privy Council did not exceed 30,0004 It was
by the advice of the Crown that that vote was increased to
75.000/. and then to 100,00 A per annum. We, charged with
the responsibility of the Government, and having thesupport of
a great majority of this House, did not think that Parlianient
would have acquiesced in 1840 and 1841, after
the debate of 1839, and after a mtjority of the House
bad declared their opinion in favour of the proceed.
ings by vote, seeing that Parliament thought that arrange.
ment had been made between Government and the heads of the
Church, and that in 1840 and 1841 there was no disposition to
resew the discussion of 1639; I say, considering these things,
and the increase of the vote, by the advice of the Crown to
Parliament, from 30,C00/. to 100,0004 and more, without re-
quiring any alteration in the channel through which it was ad-
mihstered, I think I should be utterly unworthy if I now, in
1847, attempted to throw any impediment in the way which
might obstruct the application, and in some respects imperfect
remedy, for an evil of which we ought to be fully impressed,
by proposing that we should proceed by Bill rather than by a
vote of the House. But has nothing occurred since 1842 ?
Have we not had an attempt to proceed by Bill with reference
to the education of the people?--( Hear.) And what was the
result? When my Right Hou. Friend the late Secretary of
State for the Home Department attempted to introduce a mea-
sure with respect to the education of factory children, and in-
curred the obloquy with which he was assailed--obloquy to
which he exposed himself, because he was actuated by a deep
sense of public duty—he considered that he should mitigate the
opposition that existed by proceeding by a legislative enact..
ment. He did not proceed by vote. nor did he propose
to place any authority in the Privy Council,
We made an attempt to introduce further facilities with respect
to the education of the people, but we met with no encourage..
ment in respect to a vote of the House of Commons, and the
Noble Lord and my Hon. Friend were compelled to abandon
the project ; and I regret that it was necessary to abandon that
attempt, because it was made with the view of uniting all
parties desiring some scheme, by which, without impolitic con-
cessions, great facilities might be given to the education of the
People. Now then, in 1447, seeing the failure of attempting
to proceed by legislation, seeing the evidence that there is,
:Ton with 100,0001., no sufficient, no adequate pro-
..education of the people —moral, intel-
lectual, for
rantbe
whicd 4',%Flittuost; I am ready to consent to any
measure,
chyisttanv.iolating the conscientious scruples
of any class of
monstrous evils which
et aff affords some remedy for those
(Cheers.) Sir, in the
coursee
from
the want of education.—
much able argument with this debate, there has been
the authority and
duty of the State to interfere vritrFetheetegcation of the people.
Sir, in the course of the debate
esslstiulEairerpereht blae ut
onno
denial of that—( Hear, hear)—and I
the part of that great body of her Maj
from the doctrines of the Established Chnenh,T, who dissent
position to deny the importance of education or r,e,,i3j_n° diS•
th
right and duty of the State to promote that ed
ppvo
this
Dtklt silos
by every means in its power.—(Hear.)
the chief objection of the Non conformrng
seeding on the part of her Majesty's Government, is is
es'ir°"so
much a denial of the right of the State to promote education
as a doubt whether or no the measure proposed is really mkt,:
latsd to promote that end. That the Nonconforming body, at
least, if they are consistent with their doctrines on the subject
—(Hear, hear)—only object to it on the ground that the vo-
luntary principle is better calculated to promote education, than
any interference on the part of the State. And, Sir, if Icould
believe that assumption—if I could believe that non-interference
on the part of the State was calculated to facilitate education
more than such interference, I should at once admit, that in
this country, in which such difference of opinion in relation to
this subject prevails—l should, I repeat, at once admit that,
whatever might be the right of the State, it was not desirable
that any such interference should take place.--( Hear.) But I
think the evidence is conclusive that the voluntaryprinciple has
failed to mitigate the evils which arise from a want of educe-
tion.—(Cheers.) Sir, I believe, if we could know the real
extent of this evil—U we could have presented to its aNI

account of all the crime which has been generated by igno-
rance—if we could know what really has taken place within
the last fifty years—if we could know how much evil the ex-
ample of the parent has introduced—how his example has in-
troduced infection into the character of his children—if we
could know how much of violence, how much of rapine and
crime against life and property have been caused by a dearth of
education—if we could know bow many souls have been intro-
duced
of the cnht ea
rtahcet e Pr e
os es
en,c ea
nodf tphr
ni re
pCI Creator
Christian d J uadogi
tey,
igant
In tehr
ink
we should be disposed to shudder at oueneglect, and to repair,
without delay, the evils of past legislation.—(Loud cheers.)
Sir, I look to the volume of evidence which has been pre.
vented for the last few years. I hold in my hand one of those
volumes, the reports of the Commissioners who were ap-
pointed to inquire into the state of education of the children
employed in the several mining districts of the kingdom. A
single report refers to the education of the children in Flint..
shire and Denbighshire, Lancaster, Staffordshire, Durham,
North Wales, and South Wales. The evidence had been
collected from men of the highest acquirements, and of the
most superior attaintamments, and they uniformly come to the
same conclusion, that there was complete degradation in many
parts of the country, on account of the neglect of education.
I believe that we are little aware of the extent to which
ignorance prevails.—(Hear, hear.) We see returns of the
number of children educated, but we rarely inquire what
is the real state of the question. We may be told that there
are from about four or five hundred thousand children, of whom
three hundred thousand are educated, and two hundred thou-
sand are not. This is a sufficiently painful reflection. But
if we are really acquainted with the education which the three
hundred thousand receive, our reflections would be still more
painful. I have not come to a conclusion en this subject
without having maturely weighed the amount of evidence on
both sides of the question, and although I 'mow that any re-
ference to these documents is not very palatable to
the House, yet they are far more important than
any speculative arguments which I could adduce. I
will take an important case with respect to Oldham,
in Lancaster, and I find in the evidence of the curate of the
church of St. James's, in Oldham, this testimony, which he
gives in reference to the state of the educated classes in the
district. And now, considering whether it be safe to trust to
the voluntary principle for the education of the poor, and for
the arguments of those who say that the rule of the State
ought to be non interference. Let us listen to what this gen-
tleman says, speaking of the district of St. James :—" There
is in this district no public day-school whatever ;
I have made several attempts to establish one.
I have even sought assistance from the National
Society. A good building has been erected, and two
smaller ones—one for infants, and another for more advanced
scholars. An attendance of scholars can be got, but no
money to pay a master. This state of things has been endured
four yearl—three masters have successively tried to maintain
a school here, but without avail." Now, here was a district
which up to the present hour contained no public day-school
whatever, it was quite true that there were Sunday schools.
The parents had no objections to these as they did not inter-
fere with the working of the children, and because the chil-
dren attending these schools were returned as educated.
But what is the opinion of this gentleman on this
education? He says—" It is obvious that schools
composed thus must be imperfect in the extreme—
as schools they do harm, by lowering the opinion of the people
of the value of secular instruction, and teaching them to be
satisfied with a quantity with which they ought not." They
had no day schools, none of the habits engendered in schools ;
and the clergyman thinks mere attendance, without any prepara-
tion for it, does more harm than good ; and yet these are the
persons who are returned as educated. They had it in evi-
dence that these Sunday schools were an imperfect instrument
for education ; that they did more harm than good, and that
for secular education they were worse than useless. The
evidence of the boys themselves was worth attention.
One of them, fifteen years of age, says, " I have
been at a Sunday school for five or six years and
I have not learnt to read more than my letters." He went to
a Sunday school for five or six years, and he did not know
how to read his own language--he did not know bow to read
or write. A day school could not be established; those parties
who would send their children to them were not willing to pay
for them. Is not this a proof that the voluntary principle could
not be relied upon ?—( Hear, hear.) What was now proposed ?
To elevate the character of the schoolmaster; to exalt his
position in the scale of society, and to give him encouragement
to advance himself. As to the patronage gained by the Go.
vernrnent, it was an objection so futile that it ought not
to have been advanced in the House.—( Hear, hear.) But
the most important tendency of the measure was to raise the
character of the schoolmaster. At present, as soon as they
had a competent schoolsaaster; as soon as he had proved him-
self capable to discharge the duties of such an office, tempta-
tions were held out to him to leave his situation, and to enter
other employments, which would lead to more certain pro-
motion. How then can you succeed, unless you teach him
that the office is an honourable one, and unless you hold out to
him some prospect that when he will be incapacitated, that the
State will not neglect him, but reward him for his
faithful services. Sir, that part of these minutes,
which has a tendency to improve the condition of the
schoolmaster is one to which I give my hearty concurrence.—
( Hear, hear.) I regret the opposition of the Noncoriformist
bodies to this measure, I have shown my attachment to the
Dissenters on many cceasions. I have supported many Bills
which had their relief for an object ; and, notwithstanding,
my attachment for the Established Church of this country,
I should be sorry to gain any covert advantage at the expense
of another church—and, if I thought it unjust to the Dissenters
I would not support it—it ii impossible to forget the services
which they had rendered to education, even when the English
Church had neglected it.—( Hear.) It is impossible to forget
the services and the example shown by the Non-conformist.
Try it on what principle you will, you can urge no objection to
this mode on account of the supposed advantage which will he
gained by the Church. There is no denying that the Church
is powerful, and I rejoice that it is so.—( Hear, hear.) I think
that the power of the Church is increasing; and why is it in-
creaeing ? My firm belief is that the power of the Church is
increasing from its hold over the affections of the people of this
country. It is becoming strengthened because it is becoming
more awakened to the amount of duty it has to perform. My
firm belief is that the Church has acquired a hold, an increased
hold, on the respect and veneration of the people of this country
by its willingness to make a timely ant salutary reform, and by
its readiness to consentto a reduction of thesuperfluous emolu
*lents of the higher orders of the Church dignitaries, in order
to devote those emoluments to afford increased accommodation
and means to the spiritual charge of the people by its superior
members. It is my opinion that the conduct of the Church
in that respect has greatly increased its power—and it is a legi-
timate source of power. It is not the Government grants that
are giving the Church an increased influence. That is a com-
plete mistake; the Church would be just as powerful without
this aid. In what way does that aid increase the power of the
Church in any district where the Church population is more
numetous than any other sect ? It is the Church's power over
the affections of the people. I say it not invidiously with re-
gard to the Dissenters, because I give to the Dissenters the full
credit which is due to them—they are actuated by the same
spirit, of which all religious opinions are beginning to perceive
the necessity. The influence of the Church has been increased
Gbyivteheo
rcowni
tdhubcot
dofththse ; heeouor?ahr,y
aid biyt
twhiellGeoonvteirnoumeetootbteo
ts
hoe.
Church, and its legitimate sources of influence over the popu-
lation will not be diminished; and I rejoice that it is so, as the
principle is one of fairness. On these grounds I shall give my
support to the motion of the Noble Lord, and shall not vote for
the motion or amendment of the Hon. Member. I think that
we have had abundant time. I think that the facts are well be-
:ore us, if we will but resort to the evidence of which we are in
possession. The in,titutions of this country are not capacious
enough, as they at present exist, to provide for the education
of the countless millions which are engaged in varied pursuits.
Sir, its the course of this discussion, a question of great im-
portance has arisen with regard to the condition of other sub-
jects of her Majesty other than those who are members of the
Established Church, or those whom we usually call Dissenters
—I speak of the Roman Catholics. Sir, lam of opinion that
the system of general education, even in England would be ad-
mitted as a conclusive, a comprehensive one, which excluded
the Roman Catholics from its operation.—(Hear, hear.) The
Noble Lord says there is no alteration in the principle of the
minute of 1839. In that respect I beg to differ from my No-
ble Friend; I think we are about—practically at least—to
make a differ, nce, a material difference, in the principle upon
which we have begun these minutes. You are about to admit
to the participation of the advantages of this grant the members
of the dissenting body, which certainly has hitherto been ex.
eluded. Hitherto the Wesleyan body—practically at least—has
not had any participation in this vote. They were not
in connexion with the British andi Foreign School
Society, anti therefore that rule which excluded from
participation in the advantage of the Parliamen.ary
etyvote, any
society not in connexion with the National Soci, or the British and Foreign Schools Society—excluded the Wesleyan&
from any pecuniary advantage from it. You are about to
alter the principle of these minutes in that respect. You
have given an assurance to the Wesleyans, that this rule,
which has hitherto prevailed, shall not be obligatory—and
that these schools, whether or not in connexion with
either of the parent societies, shall be entitled to aid,
and that authorities of the Wesleyan body shall be
consulted in respect of the inspection of these schools.
So far as the position of the Roman Catholic is concerned,
what is the material difference? There is a material difference
in point of principle as well as of advantage. You are going
to widen and spread over with the public bounty an unusual
space, and the more wide that space is the more marked will be
the exclusion.— (Hear, hear.) Therefore I think that the time
has come—and I am the more anxious to avow my opinion, as
an an avowal of opinion in this respect may
j be unpopular—
(Hear, hear)—the time has come when justice and good
policy call from you a mature consideration of the
position of the Roman Catholic. Take the case now
of the Roman Catholics of Manchester and of Liverpool, or
in many other places. Now let us deliberate upon this
question without insisting upon the alteration of the minute—
or inquiring of the meaning of the particular term of a word
" Scripture," amount to the words " authorised version," or
' whether the Roman Catholics are excluded from this grant in
consequence of their not being in connexion either with the
National Society or with the British and Foreign School
Society—let us neglect these, and instead of them, see that we
are about to adopt—l will not say—a permanent system,
but an extended system, on which we are about to act,
and let us consider whether or no we can exclude on any
ground or pretence, if we can continue the exclusion, of the
Roman Catholics; it would perhaps be as my Hon. Friend
said, to postpone the consideration of the question for some
months, but I am not bound or inclined upon that account to
force or precipitate the adoption of any measure, and I will
admit that it requires some consideration ; but I am
not disposed that there shall be any doubt as to the
opinion which I entertain.—(Loud cheers.) Let us take
the population of Manchester. There is a particular
district in Manchester called " Irish Town," so great is the
number of that people residing there, and I am told that there
are not less than sixty thousand or seventy thousand Irish
people inhabiting it. They are a class of people that come
over there, and who, speaking generally, are distinguished
by their industry and good conduct. They come over to the
wealthy manufactures of Manchester, to live there and give
the advantage of their labour. They have no natural pro- GROUP X VIII.
.AND OXFORD LINE.
lectors—there were no wealthy Roman Catholics connected CHELTENIZAINI
with Manchester to have regard to their spiritual concerns. The Committee on this Group assembled to-day at Twelve
Of that body, and there is no one there probably who possessed o'clock; the Earl of Lincoln in the Chair.
the means of superintending the education of 60,000 or 70,1100 The evidence taken was in continuation of' that yesterday,
of the inhabitants of the poorer classes. How is that education and principally given by Mr. Engall, and Mr. Howley, a
to be provided for them ? The priests no doubt would attend banker at Cheltenham, and Mr. Vivian. the Member fur
to them, but I apprehend that the means of the priest to pro- Swansea. The first two of these three gentlemen testified to
vide a system of education are most limited. Is it to the ad- the feeling of the inhabitants of Cheltenham being very
vantage of the State that the children of 60,000 or 70,000 strong in favor of theprojec of the Gr: at Western Company
should be brought up in ignorance? I confess that. I cannot Viviano
.tated twat nthi is opiuian, and in the opinion
conceive a more
against barbarism, or
advantage urgent cave; and so far only as the intellectual of ail those with whom he had come in contact, the Great
of the Roman Catholics is concerned ; but if it be
of character which is
only
Western line was by far the ta,st of the two. Tne line would
for the truth of
principle which the prnciple yen have brought forward shorten the distance between London and
,to
whbi be Swansea by five
en accoubnrtouofghtthe crime
u and degradation miles, and would give great facilities for the transport of
you reth7edebaroulidgnoranice--pif it be for that minerals from South Wales.
ought not
and ignorance 1 agreed to, those children Mr. Lewis, a magistrate of South Wales, gave similar
misery ts itC As a question of policy and could ably Y lead to crime. Mr. Davies, Member for the County of Carmarthen,
ration. The schools of the Roman Cathol,icaus,
to make some provision fo th e. I maintain that you ought confirmed the previous evidence, and stated that he
r e education of the rising gene- had received a memorial from the county town, re-
suppotratkeedn
int) therefore, it is I was a director of the S nth Wales Railway, and
_i,nlarge towns, questing him to support the Bill in Parliament. He
at present, are very imperfectly
ration. could say that that line was in active important that their case should be
It was more likely that such a course —the granit 'n3i4e
money to maintain their schools—would soften theif fSeueT
ere wars,
to be a course of construction.
sof So far as he was acquainted with the mineral district of
1411,earettnhuflyorrit'hitelvtirla,
nhsepobretl
of
tytettlie that
produce,g teabtuftaiclieliwtieassiwlootualdwatrtee
and reconcile them to the truths of Protestantism, thasn'
acting in an intolerant and exclusive spirit.—(Hear, hear!)
This was a much more advisable course than to leave the rising Severn floating bridge to cross the river
generation a state of perpetual 4110111aco• 141: firm per Dr Ufbjrt.
neb
"410r,PbYgiciati. the hospital at Chel-

The floucie then divided, when there appeared
For the grant... ... 372
Against it

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(YESTERDAY)
GROUP I.

GROUP V.

WINDSOR, STAINES, AND SOUTH-EVES,
TERN (STAINES TO ASCOT, &c.)

The witnesses were cross-examired at considerable length
on the part of private proprietors, &c.
Tt, Committee adjourned till to-morrow (this day) at
TwEive.

GROUP VI.
SALISBURY AND YEOVIL.

EXETER, YEOVIL, AND DORCHESTER,

At the commencement of the proceedings this morning,
Mr. DEEDES, the Chairman of the Committee, stated that
the Committee thought it desirable, in order to avoid a waste
of time to themselves and expense to the parties concerned,
to state that it was the opinion of the C.:mtnittee that they
had heard sufficient evidence to convince them of the exist-
ence of a traffic between Salisbury anti Yeovil, which would
warrant the construction of a railway in that district. They
wished, however, to guard themselves against the supposi-
tion that they had come to any conclusion with respect to
the merits of the line before them. At the same time he
thought it desirable to state that, in the opinion of the Com-
mittee, any further evidence upon the consequences of the
break of gauge should be confined to professional men, who
were acquainted with the whole nature of the subject.
Mr. HILL, QC., felt obliged to the Committee for the ex- '
nressions they bad thrown out, which he considered were
kindly intended on the part of the Committee for their
guidance rather than for their government.
The CHAIR:KAN—The Committee do not wish, in the slight-
est degree, to interfere with the course which counsel may,
under such circumstances, think it their duty to adopt.
Mr. Farman, collector of harbour dues at Southampton,
gave evidence as to the amount of the exports and imports
into that port.

Mr. nutter, solicitor, residing at Shafte=bury, and agent
to the South-Western Railway. He had taken great pains to
inform himself of the district round Shaftesbury and its
wants, and it was his opinion that the construction of the
proposed line would fully meet the requiremants of the
district.
Mr. T. Ensor, a large glover in the neighbourhood of Mil •
bourne Port, paying upwards of 2001. a week in wages, was
the next witness examined. He thought it of great im-
portance that there should be a continuous line of railway
to London-bridge.
Mr. Dingley, draper, of Sherborne ; Mr. Alexander, an ex-
tensive carrier in the western districts; and Mr. Ilannam,
grocer, of Wincanton, also gave evidence in favour of the lines
proposed by the South-Western Company.
The Commirten then adjourned till to-morrow (this day)
at Twelve o'clock.

GROUP XI.
The Select Committee appointed to consider the merits
of the Bills comprised in this group re-assembled at the
usual hour this morning ; Mr. Forbes Mackenzie in the
chair.

COLCHESTER AND STOUR VALLEY (LA..
VENHAM AND BURY ST. EDMUND'S
EXTENSION).
Mr. Sergeant WRANGtiANt opened the case for the pro-
moters of this line. The object of the Bill was to extend the
line passed yesterday on to Bury, where it would join the
Ipswich and Bury Extension line to Norwich, and thus form
a competing railway to the line of the Eastern Counties and
Newmarket and Chesterfield, from the metropolis, to Nor-
wich and Yarmouth. It was proposed that the Eastern
Union and the Norfolk Companies should lease the line at
five per cent., with half the surplus profits.
A number of local witnesses were called to prove the ad-
vantages of the line, and the Committee adjourned.

GROUP XVI.
The Committee met this morning at the usual hour; Mr.
Kemble in the chair.
GREAT NORTRE3ZSr (RER.TTORD TO ST

suasion is that considerable advantage will result by arranging
that the children of all shall have the benefit of a secular edu -
cation. On this head I must state, that I listened to the
speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary
with the greatest satisfaction—a speech which holds out great
hopes of a settlement of the question in a manner to meet the
wishes which the House has expressed. I know that the ques-
tion is most difficult, and-I thick that it is wise to proceed with
caution; still I think that some means should be taken for
providing for the education of the children of Roman Catho-
lics. I rely, therefore, on the early settlement of the
Roman Catholic claims, and beg leave to impress
on the Government the necessity of framing some
measure by which the Roman Catholics shall not
be excluded. If an early election was to take place, it was
important that no misunderstanding should be made, and that
fair notice to all parties interested might be given. He re-
cognised and supported the principle that no party should be
excluded from participating in the Government grant, and in
support of this view, he begged of them to look back on what
had yet been done to advance education, and what yet re-
mained to be done. According to proceedings as they went on,
the Churchmen opposed one day, and the Dissenters the
next. Meanwhile, what was doing to educate the 80,000
children who were wanting education, or the 300,000 who
were added yearly to the population of the country. I know
the difficulties of the case. Yet still I think that some arrange-
ment should be made by which the children of all sects might
be made to participate in the benefits of the Government
grant. Ido not believe that a purely secular education would
be acceptable to the people of this country, but I do
believe a religious one to be at the least as important
as secular education; and I believe it to be for the interests
of the country. I believe it to be for the interests of that
Protestant rel'gien which shrinks not from the light, but ever
rejoices in the spread of knowledge, that the people should
not be left in a state of ignorance; but, by receiving intellec-
tual culture, their minds should be prepared for the reception
of those great truths which, in the first instance, is the foun-
dation of all religion, and more especially of that religion
which relies more than any other on self-judgment and intel-
lectual culture, which courts inquiry, and is, therefore, the
more likely to recemmend itself to a wise and reasoning
pee*.
Aar. PLUMPTRE was anxious to say a few words, in con-
sequence of the debate that evening. Wherein did the diffi-
culty consist? Was it that the people of England were an
ignorant people ? No ; but they were a Protestant people,
and therefore it was that there were objections to the proposi-
tions which were made by the Government. The proposal
might be expediency, but it was not Christianity. The people
placed no dependence on their leaders on either side.
of the House, and he thought that they would at the proper
opportunity, choose good and faithful representatives, who
would truly consult their religious feelings Ind act upon them.
Mr. NEWDEGATE, who ruse amidst the utmost con-
fusion, was understood to ask Lord John Russell whether it
was the intention of her Majesty's Government to submit the
future minutes of the council, with respect to the admission of
Catholics to a participation in the grants of the Government,
to the Horse?

Lord J RUSSELL—Of course, on future minutes he musi
ask the opinion of Parliament.

Majority for he Government :if 5
QUAKERS' AND JEWS' MARRIAGE BILL.
This Bill went through Committee.
The remaining orders of the day were then disposed of, and
he House adjourned at One o'clock

RAILWAY COAIMITITES

The Select Committee appointed to consider the merits of
the Bills comprised in this group-,,re-assembled at the usual
hour this morning in Room 30; Mr. W. 0. Stanley in the
chair.

THE BRIGHTON (MID KENT) SCHEME.
Mr. Sheroad's engineering evidence in favour of this lir,e
was resumed. The; total cost he estimated at 1,500,00 C/.,
exclusive of stations. The main line to Tunbridge would
cost 392,8357., and the branch 18,5411. The construction of
the works would occupy about two years.
•

The witness was cross-examined at considerable length by
Mr. MERREIVETHER.

The Committee adjourned at the usual hour till twelve
o'cicck to-morrow (this day).

The Committee met at twelve this morning; present, Lord
Harry Vane, Chairman ; Hun. M. Gore, Hon. M. Sutton,
Mr. Rice, and Sir E. Filmer.
WINDSOR, STAINES, AND SOUTH-WES-
TERN (RICHMOND TO WINDSOR).

tenham, and who has been residing in that place for the last
38 yews, testified to the advantage which the line would be
to the town in the removal of a bad neighbourhood, and by
permitting the access of fresh air not only to the hospital but
to the houses near to it. Within the last few days he had
been over the property which would be removed for the rail-
way, and he could say that the places were a disgrace to
the town. On many accounts the proposed station of the
Great Western Railway would be the best of the two. Ac-
cording to the present arrangements the hospital would have
to be removed to the distance of a mile and a-half from its
present site, but there was to be a branch dispensary, so
that no inconvenience would be felt from the change.
Several other witnesses were examined relative to the re-
spective advantages of the Opposing lines in their course
through Cheltenham, and the Committee adjourned at Four.

Mr. Locke, the engineer-in-chief of the South-Western
Company, said the principle on which he laid out the pro-
jects was how far he could accommodate the district compa-
tibly with a great through line. He preferred a system of
loop lines for that object to one of branches. The routes
now fixed on differed in several advantgeous respects from
the scheme of last session. It had been laid out with a view
to connect all the towns of the districts with each other. as
well as with London—to give facility of communication
through Wokingbam to Reading, and so to the north, by a
narrow gauge line, and to connect Windsor easily by the
main line of the South-Western with Southampton and
Portsmouth. It was proposed to provide depot accommoda-
tion at Brentford for coals brought up the river, whence
they could be distributed through the district on the rail;
for it was supposed that the same tide would take the barge
to Brentford, and perhaps the same expense as would take
the coals to Nine Elms. The estimated cost of the works for
making the new road through Windsor Park, and the bridge
carrying the road to the station, as furnished by the Crown
engineer, was 20,0001., exclusive of land The gross esti-
mate on each of the two Bills was 500,000/. On the Rich-
mond and Windsor line the earthwork was 30,672/. ; bridges
103,220/. ; permanent way, 118.90•14; sidings, &c., 37,19 t/. ;
land and compensation, 131,330/. ; contingencies, 78,6781. ;
On the Staines and Wokingham, with branches, the earth-
work was 113,789/ ; bridges, 77,485/. ; permanent way.
150,100/.; sidings, 23,296/. ; land and compensation,
71,1001. ; and contingencies, 6,301. The gradients were
very easy, the deepest cutting, or the highest embankment,
was about 20 feet. The only important bridge was that
crossing the river at Richmond, which had received the
sanction of the Admiralty and the other authorities.
Mr. Lie, surveyor to the Company, estimated the pur
chas,. of the land on the Richmond and Windsor line a,
131,330/, and on the Ascot line at 7.100/.

o'clock (Sir J. Y. Buller, chairman), and proceeded to take
the

GLASGOW, DUMFRIES, AND CARLISLE,
AND GLASGOW, PAISLEY, KILMAR-
NOCK, AND AYR. (No. XI.)
Mr. AUSTIN opened the case for the promoters. He sa'd,
the object of the Bill was to extend the line to Portpatrick,
with the view of accommodating the Irish trade, and fur-
nishing a communication between the northern portion of the
island and the Irish port of Donaghadee. Were this
finished, it would form one of three routes to Ireland, the
midland portion of the country being. accommodated by
Holyhead to Dublin, and the remaining junction being made
by way of Fishguard to Cork and Wicklow. The Dumfries
Company wished only to open up one instalment of this route
at present--namely, as far as Kirkcudbright; but even from
that town the distance to Donaghadee would be as short as
from Holyhead to Dublin, and shorter than from Fishguard
to Wicklow. The country was an agricultural one, and
there was a considerable local traffic. The line was some
twenty-seven miles, and, the cost of construction would be
moderate. The only opposition offered was by Mr. Aglionby,
but he believed that, before their case was concluded, an
arrangement would be entered into with that gentleman. He
would not detain the Committee longer, but at once proceed
to call his witnesses.
Mr. John Mackie, deputy- lieutenant ani convener of the
stewartry of Kirkcudbright, was examined by Sir THOMAS
Puts.rara—He gave gensral evidence of the importance of
the line as opening up the local resources, and furnishing a
communication not on 1: with Ireland, but with the southern
and eastern parts of this island.
Mr. M•Lellan, town and county clerk, and agent for the
Bank of Scotland at Kirkcudbright, concurred on the import-
ance of this line as giving a communication with the eastern
and south-eastern part of the country. The opening to
Cannobie would lower the price of coals, and afford
abundance of lime, which would greatly advantage the
agriculturist. The different ports on the Solway would
greatly benefit by the line. The exports of Kirkcudbright
might. be reckoned at—fat cattle, 2,000; fat sheep, 30,000;
wool, 1,000 packs; salmon, 800 boxes; and general mer-
chandise, 1,500 tons. The imports were—lime, 1,500 tons;
guano, 300 tons ; timber, 700 loads ; general merchandise,
`2,000 tons; and coals to a considerable extent. There was
a passenger trade in the last year between Kirkcud-
bright and Liverpool, of 3,000 to 4,000 persons ; the
tonnage of the port in the, same year was 31,000 tons, but
this would be greatly increased by the formation of this line.
There were three stage coaches from Kircudbright to Dum-
fries, and several coaches to other places, the rate being 3d.
to 4d. per mile for outside passengers. The line was gene-
rally demanded by all parties in the country.
The CHAIRMAN expressed himself satisfied with the im-
portance of this portion of the line, and would desire no
other evidence upon it.
Mr. M'Knight, proprietor of Barlochan, situated within
two miles of the terminus at Gibbs'-hole, spoke to the excel-
lent character of the land, which would be greatly bettered
if the agriculturists had a plentiful supply of lime. The want
of that article had fettered agricultural energy. It was at
present brought by sea from Cumnock, cost at the ship's
side 14s. per ton, and was, as some of the farmers
were obliged to cart it very many miles, con-
siderably increased in expense. He should say that
18s. was at present the cost to the consumer.
The witness also detailed the disadvantages under which
they laboured from a want of coal—a disadvantage which
would be entirely obviated by the construction of this line.
There was a part of the water of Urr which had an import
registered tonnage of 10,000 tons. It would be exceedingly
advantageous to the public if Gibbs'-hole were formed into a
sport, because it offered excellent anchorages, and was only
half a mile from the sea, while it was protected on the land-
ward side by hills on the south and south-west. Kirkcud-
bright, although an excellent port, was six miles from
the sea.
Mr. Lidderdyke, living at Castle Douglas, knew the coun-
try well. He was factor for some estates in that district, the
rental of which was some 10,0001. a year. The wishes of the
proprietors were in favour of the two lines. It was known
that there was iron ore on these properties, and he bad one
offer for it from Brumpton, on the line of the Newcastle and
Darlington Railway. There were iron mines at Auchincairn,
the outport of which was last year some 3,000 tons, and this
year it was expected to double. The produce was sent by
sea to the coast of Cumberland, and thence found its way by
rail to Newcastle. This railway, as supplying a desired com-
munication, would be a great public benefit.
Mr. M'Laurin, Dalbeattie, spoke to the local traffic be-
tween Dumfries and Dalbeattie, and the necessity that
existed for the formation of this railway.
Mr. John Miller, C.E., was engineer of many railways:7in
the south and other parts of Scotland. He had since last
year carefully examined the country through which this
line passed, and he had laid it down in the way he conceived
best calculated to benefit the district. It commenced at
Dumfries, and went on in the direction shown on the map to the
town of Kirkcudbright. The length was 27 miles and 2 fur•
longs. The steepest gradient was 1 in 80, and extended
a distance of three miles. The whole cost was 660,0001.
The cost of the works was for the main line 441,5261., and for
the Gibbs. hole branch, 11'2,217/. The balance provided for
stations, land, and contingencies.
The formal proofs were then put in, and there being no
opposition offered, the preamble was declared proved.
The Committee then considered and passed the clauses,
and, at a quarter to: four o'clock, adjourned till to-morrow
(this day).

AWJNTELLIGENCE.

HOUSE OF LORDS, April 22.
The House sat to-day in the New Chamber to hear ap-
peals. The Peers present were the Lord Chancellor, Lord
Brougham, the Earl of Clancarty, and Lord WaldegraTe.
GERM-ITT V. MALONE AND °THEM.
The argument on this part-beard appeal were resumed to-
day. The case came before their Lordships upon appeal
from a decree of Sir Edward Sugden's, when Lord Chancel-
lor of Ireland. The following are the facts of the case, out of
which the appeal arises:—
The respondents had filed a bill in the Court of Chancery
in Ireland, praying to be declared entitled to redeem certain
lands, and to hold them under a lease of December, 1823, on
payment of what should be found to be due to the present
appellant, upon accounts being taken between the parties.
The appellant held the lands direct from the Archbishop of
Dublin for the time being, under a lease considered to be
perpetually renewable, and had granted a lease to a person
named Frayne. Rent being over-due in the year 1839, the
appellant brought an action of ejectment. The action was
not defended, and the appellant obtained judgment, but
before a writ of habere faces possessionem was issued the
rent and costs were tendered by the widow of Frayne. The
ejectment was stopped, and Frayne, jun., took possession of
the lands. It was stated that Malone advanced the money,
and took a mortgage on the, lands by way of security.
In the year 1840, rent again being in arrear, another eject-
ment was brought. The ca,e went to trial, and the appel-
lant recovered judgment and a writ of habere, which was
executed, and under which he entered into possession. The
respondent, M&one, afterwards filed his bill in the Court of
Chancery, with a prayer to the effect above stated. and al-
leged his title to be that of mortgagee of the premises in
virtue of having advanced the money which in 1839 was
paid to the appellant for the rent and costs then due. The
respondent, Malone, proved a tender of the rent and costs
within the time permitted by the statutes of Ireland to a
person who desired to redeem a forfeiture. The appellant
refused to accept the tender. The Lord Chancellor granted
the prayer of the bill, and apparently considering that the
appellant ought to have accepted the money tendered, di•
rected him to pay the costs of suit. The lease of 1823 ex-
pired in March, 1843, but the decree was not finally made till
April, 1843.

Mr. GERATITY, the appellant, who is an Irish barrister,
argued his case in person on Tuesday last, contending, first,
tbat the alleged mortgagee had not made out a good title,
either in law or equity, to have redemption of the land; se-
condly, that there was no ground to award costs against
him; and lastly, that the decree ought not to have been for
possession of the land, because the term of the original lease
had, in fact, expired.
The arguments occupied their Lordships the whole day.

ROLLS COUNT, April 22.
WASON V. BRIDGES, &C.
This was a motion for an injunction to restrain the de-
fendants from pulling down certain houses in Westminster,
under the power of an Act entitled, "The Westminster Im-
provement Act." It appeared that the defendants were tha
commissioners under this Act, and the plaintiff was the per-
son who originated the speculation for which that Act had
been obtained, and the object of which was to make a street
from Westminster Abbey to Buckingham Palace, which
would pass thr.ugh prop,rty which he held under lease from
the Farmers' Charity and from the dean and chapter of
Westminster. The proposed projf.ct of the plaintiff was ap-
proved of by the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, who
agreed to give 50,0001. towards its prosecution. In February,
1845, the plaintiff assigned his interest in this scheme to two
parties named Mason and Taylor, and an agreement was
entered into as to the terms. A Bill was subsequently in-
troduced into Parliament, which received the Royal Assent,
to carry out the proposed improvement; but the agreement
not having been duly executed by Mason and Taylor, the
plaintiff sought by the present motion to prevent the exe-
cution of the work until a satisfactory arrangement should
be made.

Mr. KINDERSLEY opened the case for the plaintiff to-da'

VICE-CHANCELLOri'S COURT, April 22.
( Before the VICR-CRANCRLLOR OF ENGLAND.)
His HONOUR took motions to-day, but no case of interest,
except to the parties concerned, came before the Court during
the morning.

c;OURT OF QUEEN'S B F NCH, April 22.
,Sittings in Banco, before Lord Chief Justice DENMAN and a
full Court. )
THE QUEEN v. SAUNDERS.
Mr. PASHLEY moved for a rule to show cause why a
criminal information should not be filed against M r. Saunders,
a magistrate in the county of Carmarthen, for committing
Win. Griffiths to gaol, and refusing to take bail, under the
following circumstances :
On the 2d of December last, the applicant and his son
were walking along a train road, or?:public way, near Lla-
netbly, towards the sea-coast, where there was a quantity of
wild fowl. It was then eleven at night. A person came up
to them on horseback, and on seeing them collared Wm,
Griffiths, who bad a gun upon his shoulder, and
raised his whip as if to strike him. Win.
Griffiths raised his gun as if to strike him,
and the person let go of his collar, saying
I know you, and then rode off. On the Friday following, a
policeman came to the house of the applicant at eight
o'clock in the evening, and took them into custody. They
were conveyed to the house of a person named M'Kennyon,
and then instead of being taken before the petty sessions of
Llanethly, which were held on the following day,lie was con-
veyed nearly twenty miles across the country, to Caermaerd
' -
then and taken before Mr. Saunders. M'Kennyon deposed
that he found the plaintiffs walking on the property of the
tramroad and canal company, and, as he
iabelieved,ttreewwithastohoe
intention of killing game. He admitted t
game within two miles of the place where he saw them,
found
but he stated that a hare skin was in their house.
That skin was proved to have been left there by a friend for
the purpose of being sold. Mr. Saunders was much
out of temper, and committed the elder prisoner for trial.
stating that he should not take bail. Applications were sub-
sequently made to Mr. Saunders to admit the applicant to
bail, but he refused. The trial took place on the Bth of Ja.
nuary at the Carmarthen Quarter Sessions, and a verdict of
acquittal was given, and the applicant had been previously
convicted of felony and transported, but was pardoned after
four years in the hulks, and since that time had been known
as a respectable man, so that the refusal to take bail could
not be upon that ground.—Application granted.
JURISDICTION 015 THE COURTS IN THE CHANNEL ISLANDS.
Mr. LUSH stated that there were two prisoners in Court,
brought up by writ of habeas corpus. They had been sen-
tenced to transportation in Jersey, and the question arose as
to the jurisdiction of the Court to award that sentence. He
would not press the application, as he understood that the
Attorney-General was not prepared.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that no notice bad been
given of the application. The usual course was, to give
notice of such application, and furnish the Crown with a copy
of the sentence, &c., or else merely to move for a rule nisi.
It was merely by accident that he found that such an appli-
cation was about to be made.
Mr. LUSH suggested that the proceedings should be de-
ftged tv any Wm day that the curt might am%