The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-24 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, MARCH IN4Y.

tain, presented a petition from Sligo in,:favour of a
systematic and equal poor-law rating.
BIRTHS AND DEATHS REGISTRATION

(SCOTLAND) BILL.
Mr. FORBES presented petitions from several Pres-
byteries against certain of the clauses of this Bill.
NOTICE OF MOTION.

Mr. EWART gave notice that next week he would
move for certain returns connected with the public
works in Ireland.

Mr. SPOONER postponed Mr. Muntz's motion rt-
specting the small brewers of the Midland Counties ti.l
Tuesday, the 13th of April.
ROMAN CATHOLIC CHARITABLE TRUSTS.
Mr. ROMILLY moved for leave to bring in a Bill
for the better administration of the charitable trusts of
the Roman Catholics. It was not his wish to enter into
a lengthened discussion on the principles of the Bill at
present. He would, with the permission of the House,
move for leave to introduce his Bill, and reserve the
further discussion until the second reading of the Bill.
The main object sought from the Bill was to obtain a
return of all charitable property of the Roman Catholics
in the Court of Chancery, and to ensure a better admi-
nistration of the funds.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL hoped that the Hon. Member
would name a long date for the second reading of the
Bill, for the purpose of giving the Catholic Members an
opportunity of consulting the Bishops and Clergy of
Ireland. and ascertaining their opinions upon the measure.
The Bill was then ordered to be brought in.
REDUCTION OF THE DUTY ON TEA.
Lord SANDON presented a petition from Liverpool,
very numerously signed, praying for a reduction of the
duty on tea.
COMMERCIAL RELATIONS WITH CHINA.
Viscount SANDON then moved for a Select Com-
mittee on the present state of our commercial relations
with China. He was very gratified that he was saved the
trouble of entering into a lengthened statement of the
reasons which made this investigation necessary, as the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government had inti-
mated to him that it was not his intention to offer any
opposition to the motion. As he (Lord Sandon) did not
wish, therefore, to delay the House from proceeding
with the consideration of the Irish poor-law he would not
take up its time at present. He thought, however, that
the subject was one which required investigation, with a
view to ascertain what the obstructions were to the ex-
tension of the China trade. He thought the labours of
the Committee would be attended with the best
results. Their relations with that country were
of a recent date, and he might say merely
experimental, and the altered circumstances which the
recent rupture had brought about made it necessary to
inquire what were the obstructions to the extension of
their commerce, and by what means they could be re-
moved. He would not, however, delay the resumption
of the discussion of the clauses on the Irish Poor-law,
but conclude by moving the appointment of a Select
Committee to investigate the subject.
The motion having been seconded,
Mr. A. HASTIE said if the motion had gone directly
to the object at which it aimed, namely, the reduction
of the tea duties, he should have seconded it with great
pleasure. Looking at the character of the Chinese, and
to the jealousy with which they viewed the proceedings
of other nations, he feared that the motion as it stood
would not be productive -of the good which the Noble
Lord seemed to apprehend from it. The Committee if
appointed should confine its inquiries to the tea trade
alone.

The motion was then agreed to.
PUBLIC WORKS IN CLARE.—CAPTAIN WYNN.

Mr. C. O'BRIEN moved the appointment of a Select
Committee to inquire into the conduct of Captain Wynn
during his employment in the county of Clare in the
months of November and December, 1846, and January,
1847, as inspector under the Board of Works, and
into the statements contained in the printed
letters of Captain Wynn and Mr. S. Gamble,
addressed to the Board, and laid on the table of
the House, and report thereon ; and also to inquire into
and report whether the said Board of Works have, or
have not, suppressed certain letters or reports made,
or alleged to have been made, by Captain Wynn to
them, on investigations held at Ennistymon on the
10th, and at Liscanner on the 17th days of De-
cember, 1846 ; and also certain letters, in pos-
session of the Board, connected with these subjects.
He said it would be in the recollection of the House,
that, on the 11th of February, he moved for the produc-
tion of papers relating to the conduct of Captain Wynn,
in his official capacity ; but they were only laid
on the table of the House two days ago, and he
found them so incorrect, incomplete, and confused, as to
be almost useless. He considered this most unfair con-
duct towards one who had occupied a seat in that House
for the last sixteen years, the more especsally as he
and his colleague had during that time supported
the present Government ; it was, therefore, most
improper that difficulties should have been purposely
thrown in his way, and that the Government should
support a public officer who bad charged him (Mr. C.
O'Brien) with conduct which, if he had been guilty of it,
would have rendered him unworthy of a seat in that House.
The character of the House was embarked in this sub-
ject, and he hoped that the Secretary for Ireland would
render some explanation of the circumstances of the
case. The Hon Gentleman then referred to letters
written by Captain Wynn on the 4th of February and
the 26th of November, 1847, page 209 of the Blue Book,
which stated that the landed proprietors rendered very
inefficient assistance to the, relief committees. He would
say it boldly, that this charge against the com-
mittee over which he presided was calumnious and
false.—(Hear, hear.) 'When he wrote those letters he
had only been three weeks in the country, and could not
have known the working of even one half of the com-
mittees. The only reason for these calumnies was in
order to carry out the measures of the Government.
An outcry was desired against the Irish proprie-
tors, and this was the motive by which he was
actuated, and he wished Hon. Gentlemen to know that
this was a way to get rewarded and to obtain public
money. It would appear that the Clare Journal had
been purchased with the public money. The
next letter was dated on the sth of December of
last year, and was written by Captain Wightman,
of the Board of Works, in which they were charged with
being assassins. With respect to Mr. J. O'Brien, he
could, in his place, defend himself, but he (Mr. C.
O'Brien) happened to have a letter from the engineer of
the Board of Works, who was at the same time district
engineer and county engineer, and who was, of course,
cognisant of all the circumstances, and he had
fully stated his opinion that the charge was false.
If the Committee which he moved for were not able to
prove the assertions he had made, he would not occupy
a seat in the House again, but would resign imme-
diately. It was a most unfair thing for the Government
not to allow the Committee to be appointed. He had
constantly supported a Whig Government for a period
of sixteen years, and this was now the reward which he
received at their hands. He hoped, therefore, that these
serious charges, involving as they did his character,
would be investigated before a Select Committee, that
an opportunity might be afforded him of showing how
utterly groundless these statements were. One of the
letters which he sent to Captain Wynn—a most im-
portant one, to which no answer was returned, but
for which he moved—had been suppressed. The
Honourable Gentleman then referred to several letters
and read extracts from them, among which was the
following:—" I have displaced upwards of 9,400 persons
chosen and placed upon the relief works in seven
baronies; and I have placed upon. the list the poor and
starving labourers, who had not been attended to be
cause nobody had any direct interest in their welfare;
and I trust that this course will meet your approbation."
He particularly requested the attention of the House to
this statement, because when he was asked to furnish a
list he declared that he was unable to furnish it, although
he referred the board to it, well knowing it did not exist.
Now this was an imposition on the Government, and
was a fit and proper subject for investigation. He
called for a searching inqu'ry; he wanted no
favour, he wanted nothing but justice, and he
did hope that the House would grant the
Committee which he sought, notwithstanding
the indisposition of the Government to grant one.
Major MACNAMARA said he would second the
motion of his Hon. Friend. He could not help com-
plaining of the course which the Government had pur-
sued upon this occasion towards himself and his col-
league.

Mr. LABOUCHERE said that ho regretted very
much that the Hon. Gentleman did not postpone for a
very few days the motion of which he had given notice,
for he must remind the House that on the motion
of the Honourable Gentleman certain documents had
been presented to the House, and were now in the course
of being printed, and which, he could assure the House,
would be in the hands of every Member in a few days.
These documents threw great light upon all these trans-
actions, and the House would be able to discuss the ques-
tion with an accurate knowledge of the circumstances.
The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Clare had re-
minded him that the Government of which he (Mr.
Labouehere) was a member had received general
support from himself and his colleague, and he
had said that it was but an ungrateful and
ungracious return on his part and on the part
of the Government to have taken a different
course on a question of this description from that
adopted by those llonourable Members. He could only
say that he certainly could have no desire to estrange
any supporters from her Majesty's Government
—a Government which had not so numerous a
body of supporters in that House as to make
him, as a member of that Administration, anxious
to alienate the support of any of those who
honoured them with their assistance. He must say with
regard to a question of this kind if he were to alter
that course which in his judgment and conscience, he
felt himself bound to pursue, when reference was made to
the conduct of an officer of that Government—if be shrank
from the defence of a man when he thought his conduct
entitled to the defence and approbation of the Govern-
ment, in order to consult any support in the House of
Commons, he should feel himself disgraced. As an old
servant of the Crown, he had no choice upon this ques-
tion, and he felt bound to defend the honest services of all
acting under him, and to defend in that house to the best
of his ability, those whom he believed to have honestly
discharged their duty to the Crown. He must repeat to
the Honourable Gentlemen that, however much he
might regret having been obliged to pursue a
course which excited warm feelings in the mind
9f himself and his colleague, he could not allow
to i
himself,reeerr on any consideration of the description
to
his
oaltdeurtythteo course which The
Hon Gentleman
Gedeliberationatlemau
he had felt
had complained of the delay which had been interposed
to the production of these papers, and said that
the Government didNothing
some way wish to delay
their production.
could be more erroneous.
He had repeatedly urged upon
the Board of Works the
importance of having these papers
i and
shvol u-
mediately pro-
duced, but they were of that
minous description, that it was impossible
tune to lay them on the table of the Hounsea. They

were then upon the table of the House, and had been
ordered to be printed, and in the course of two days
they world be in the hands of every Member
of the House. When these papers were printed, then
it would be time enough to consider wheeler it
was or was not right to grant a Committee of
that House as, the Honourable Member wished.
In the meantime he would say that he was far from
asserting that it would not be right for that House,
when it should have had an opportunity of considering
the whole case, to assent to an inquiry into the circum-
stances of this case. He could not, however, consent
to any inquiry which would drive Captain Wynn before
a Committee of that House as a criminal, for it would
render the public officers in Ireland fearful rather of
incurring the displeasure of a Member of Parlia-
ment, than of doing their duty well to the Crown
This he would say, that neither now nor hereafter would
he assent to any terms that should complain of the
conduct of Captain Wynn. He would say
that it was the decided opinion of the se-
veral members of the Government that throughout
the whole of his duty, that gentleman had acted with the
utmost prudence and consistency. Under circum-
stances of the utmost difficulty, in the face of
an opposition the most formidable, and under
the oppression of a discountenance that few men
could endure, it was the unanimous opinion of the
officers of the Board of Works, in Dublin, that this
gentleman had discharged his duty with the utmost
efficiency and benefit to the country. He had not the
slightest acquaintance with Captain Wynn, but since this
matter had been discussed in Parliament, he had an
opportunity of seeing Captain Wynn, but not having
any acquaintance with that gentleman, was it at all
probable that he had any motive for supporting him at
the expense of two Members of that House, who were
usually the supporters of the Government of which he
was a member, except in the proper discharge of his
duty. He had also seen the words of the letter, in
which it was stated by the Hon. Member that they had
held him up as an object of assassination; and he says
that he could not at all grant that his words could be
construed to mean any such thing, and certainly he
thought that great allowance ought to be made for words
uttered in moments of irritation.
Mr. O'BRIEN—Read the words.

Mr. LABOUCHERE would repeat his remark, that
great allowance was to be made for words uttered in a
moment of irritation ; and making that allowance, ho
really conceived that Captain Wynn's words would not
bear that imputation.
Mr. O'BRIEN—Read, read. _ . .

Mr. LABOUCHERE said that ho would give the
words. He said that he had strong reasons for com-
plaining of the conduct of the county Members. He
(Mr. Labouchere) thought that if a man had asserted
that others had held him up to assassination, this was at
least a very mild mode of complaining of such an injury.
He had great reason to complain of the two county Mem-
bers, who had been creating a disturbance, and halloo-
ing on a mob of at least a thousand persons of the worst
description, to impede the general business. He did not
wonder that the clerks of the Board of Works and the
other officers had not been able to do their duty, or that
the men had done just what they pleased and nothing
else, for it would require a man of the strongest nerves to
stand against such an opposition as that which they had
experienced. At the same time Capt. Wynn wished it to be
distinctly understood, that he did not for a moment
intend it to be supposed that he wished to impute
to the Hon. Member a charge so dreadful as that of
having endeavoured to obtain their assassination. The
condition of the county of Clare had been fully
borne out by Captain Fishborne, another officer of the
Board of Works. He hoped that in a few days every
Member of the House would be in possession of ample
information on the subject. Under these circumstances
he hoped that the Hon. Member would not press his
motion at present.
Major MACNAMARA explained. He made no al-
lusion to the Government. What he complained of was
want of courtesy from them.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN thought that his Right Hon. Friend
(Mr. Labouchere) should evince as much delicacy of
feeling with regard to the reputation of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Clare as he did to that of Captain Wynn. Ho
thought the feelings of the Hon. Member under these
imputations were very natural. With regard to the
terms of the motion he was quite sure the Hon. Member
had no objection to any terms with regard to the Select
Committee, if the Right Hon. Gentleman would only as-
sent to its appointment. He thought the Hon. Gentle-
men were right in bringing the question before the
House, and in endeavouring to exculpate themselves
from the charges made against them.
Lord J. RUSSELL said his Right Hon. Friend did
not object to an inquiry, but he had stated that the
papers which would enable the Committee to come to a
decision upon the matter had not yet been delivered to
the House, and that therefore the Committee could not,
in their absence, come to an unprejudiced decision. If
the Hon. Member would, as the Hon. Gentleman the
Member for Limerick had suggested, word the motion
in such a way as would not convey anything objection-
able, not the slightest objection would be made to the
appointment of the Committee, and if they wished for
certain papers he did not think there would be any
objection on the part of the Government to furnish
them.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. WILLIAMS considered that the Hon. Member
had acted properly in bringing the subject under the
consideration of the House—in fact, if he had allowed
the charge to remain uncontradicted, he would not have
been justified in retaining his seat in that House. But
the Right Hon. Gentleman had aggravated the charge.
as he had asked if he would bring Captain Wynn before
the Committee as a criminal. But he (Mr. Williams)
never heard that that House. or its Committees, were
criminal tribunals, or that those who were examined
before them were criminals.

Sir ROBERT PEEL said it was quite clear that the
Government did not object to the appointment of the
Committee for which the Hon. Gentleman had moved.
tinier these circumstances he thought if the time of
the House was occupied in criminating observations,
that the ends of justice would not be promoted. Ile
thought it would be much better to abstain from
such observations, as then, they were not in a con-
dition to come to an unprejudiced decision.—(Hear,
hear.) The Right Honourable Gentleman had
suggested some alterations in the motion, which
would rrev.ent invidious, and, therefore, improper infe•
rences from being drawn from it. He trusted the Hon.
Gentleman would accede to this proposition.—(Hear.)
Mr. LABOUCHERE said he had no hesitation in
granting the inquiry, but he objected to anything in the
terms of the resolution, which would throw the slightest
impeachment upon a public servant whom he believed
had acted correctly.
Mr. SHAW quite agreed with the Hon. Gentleman
that this motion ought to be granted, and he did admire
the straightforward and manly manner in which the
Secretary for Ireland had defended an absent public
servant. Of Capt. Wynn he knew nothing personally,
but he had heard in various places the highest cha-
racter of him. He would suggest that no words con-
demnatory of the conduct of Captain Wynn or the
Board of Works should be permitted in the words of the
resolution ; he therefore considered that the motion
should, for the present, be withdrawn.
Lord JOHN MANNERS suggested that the Commit-
tee should be granted at the present moment, and that
they should leave out the objectionable words in the re-
solution, such a course would save the time of the House
and would answer the purposes of withdrawing the
motion.
Sir GEORGE GREY said that some time would be
lost in conferring upon the exact words of the resolution.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN considered that the Committee ought
to be granted with the least possible delay.
Mr. HUME agreed in opinion, that the Committee
ought to be granted. Ile did think that the Hon. Gen-
tleman should withdraw his motion, and then confer with
the Right Hon. Gentleman on the terms of his reso-
lution.

Mr. LABOUCHERE said no time should be lost in
making the inquiry, and he would take an early oppor-
tunity of settling the terms of the motion with the
Hon. Mowber for Clare.

Mr. C. O'BRIEN complained that this was the tenth
time the matter had been postponed.
Lord CASTLEREAGH thought the terms of the re-
solution ought to be settled at once, so that the House
might agree to it. The imputation upon the character
of an Hon. Member of that House ought to be inquired
into as soon as possible.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL said it was true the words pro-
posed to be struck out were strong, but it must be re-
membered that the charge against the Hon. Member
was strong too. He had one remark to make, namely,
that there was a flippancy which he had remarked on
the part of these public officers. No doubt they had
many cases of difficulty to meet, but they certainly
should not accuse or bring accusations against the gentry
without giving due notice of it. There should be some
responsibility attached to these reports. His Hon.
Friends, whose characters stood high, were suffering
under a grievous charge, and they had retorted in strong
terms, but in terms by no means as strong as those in
which the accusation was brought against them.
Sir R. PEEL thought that the Right Hon. Gentleman
ought to allow the motion. It certainly was his duty to
defend those employed by the Government, but he would
grant an investigation into those portions of the charge
which seemed worthy of the attention of the House.
The original motion was then withdrawn, and
an
amended one, in conformity with the suggestion of Sir
Robert Peel, agreed to.
SUNDAY TRADING.
Mr. HINDLEY moved for a Select Committee to in-
quire into Sunday Trading in the metropolis.
Mr. HUME wished to know the object which the
Hon. Member had in ♦iew. He ought to state the cir-
cumstances which induced him to make the motion.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought it would not be sa-
tisfactory to appoint the Committee without good rea-
sons being given for it. To prevent any discussion on
the subject at present, he proposed the lion. Member
would withdraw the motion.
Mr. HINDLEY withdrew the motion till Tuesday
next.
DUBLIN STEAM NAVIGATION COMPANY,
Mr. COLLETT moved for returns of the name, ton-
nage, and power of all vessels of the city of Dublin and
th- General Steam Navigation Cc.mpany, with the date
of their respective construction, and the station upon
which each of such vessels has been from time to time
employed from the time when they first began to run.
Of the original cost of the said vessels, and their esti-
mated present value. Of the fares and charges made for
passengers, cattle, and merchandise on each station on
which they have been employed, stating the date of each
alteration of the said fares and charges. Of the capital
empowered to be raised by their Act of Parliament, and
whether the vessels employed by them are paid for out
of their capital, or have been provided by other means,
and if so, by what means.
Mr. PARKER hoped that as the Right Hon. Gentle-
man the Vice-President of the Board of Trade was not
present, who was opposed to the return, the Hon. Member
would postpone his motion.

Sir G. GREY thought that the return was a most ex-
traordinary one upon the Mace of it, as it proposed to
inquire into the original cost of all the ships of a
private company with their 'present estimated value.
Mr. HU-ME thought the question one of serious im-
portance. If they interfered with private concerns in
the mode proposed, it would be laying down a very bad
principle.
Dr. BOWRING could not consent to the motion.
Mr. COLLETT had good reason for making his
motion, as he was desirous of seeing whether it was
right that companies should devote their capital to other
purposes than those for which they were originally in-
corporated.
Lord LINCOLN protested against the motion.
After some further conversation, the motion was
withdrawn.

bouring, parish. The guardians or the landowners
never thought of going beyond the precincts of their
own parish, or of interfering with the proceedings of
another. If the poor law of Ireland were to be carried
out in this way, it would have the effect of reducing the
whole of the poor population to the condition of paupers.
All were bound in the same interests, arc! he might
take the principles of a community, in which the several
members were connected by common ties ; and he
thought that that was the principle to which the House
should come. This was, in effect. the question which
had been raised by the Hon. Member for Northampton-
shire, and on the grounds which he had stated when that
question arme did he object to the principle of the pre-
sent motion, and should give his vote accordingly.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN perfectly recollected the debate which
had ensued on the question alluded to, and now be-
lieved, with the Right tlon. Gentleman who had just
spoken, that it would be highly inexpedient to change
the electoral into parochial divi,ions. The great object
was, as the Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool had
stated, to give a stimulus to the landed proprietors of
Ireland, and he believed that that could never be done
until, by some means, the Irish landlords were made to
support their own poor. In the desire to obtain this, he
would readily vote for any taxation commensurate with
the extent of the estates; and if the Hon. Member for
Waterford divided the House, he should feel it his duty
to vote against him, for in his own neighbourhood the
parishes -were so large, that, without some arrangement
as this, it would be utterly impossible to carry out an
effective poor-law in Ireland.
After a few words from Mr. V. STEWART and Mr.
BELLEW in opposition to the amendment,
Mr. SHAW said, that as the whole of the machinery
of the public works was arranged in accordance with the
present arrangement of the law, this amendment could
not possibly be adopted.

Sir H. W. BARRON said that his reply to what had
been said, would be very short. He had always been an
advocate for a poor-law in Ireland, for he believed that
such a measure was the only effective relief for the evils
of that country. When the proposition of a poor-law
was first introduced, and there were only three to vote
for it in that House, he was one of the three. He was
desirous, therefore, of rendering it as serviceable as pos-
sible ; with that view he had moved the amendment now
before the House, and he had moved it because he had
found that hitherto the law had operated unequally. In
those parts of the country with which he was acquainted,
the electoral divisions were far too large for anything
like either a proper supervision or a proper system of
relief, for they frequently comprised upwards of
twenty thousand acres—an extent totally beyond the
power of any poor-law official to attend to properly.
Unless his clause were adopted, two years would not
pass over their heads without their being obliged to give
up the Bill or remodel it upon the principle he had laid
down.

Mr. HAMILTON agreed with the principle of the
amendment, but he thought the mode by which it was
proposed to carry it out was impracticable.
Mr. DILLON BROWNE thought it was highly de-
sirable that the principle of the clause should be affirmed.
There ought to be a community of interest amongst the
landlords for assisting the necessitous poor of Ireland.

After a few words from Mr. SHAW, and one or two
other rion. Members,
Mr. H. W. BARRON said he believed there were at
present 2,500 parishes in Ireland, 700 of which he pro-
posed to have divided, and when that division was made
there would be 3,500 parishes.
The amendment was then withdrawn, and clause nine
agreed to.
Oa clause 10 being proposed,

Mr. M. J. O'CONN.ELt rose to move the amendment
of which he had given notice, the object of which was to
place the rating of the poor not upon the electorial, or
other union divisions of parishes, of which they had
heard so much, but upon the union generally. Levying
the poor's rive under the present system, was not a fair
mode of taxation, for many parties were overrated,
while others who ought to be rated were not
rated at all. If Ireland was to recover from the
calamity which had befallen her, it must de-
pend mainly upon the energies and industry
of the inhabitants of her towns, and it therefore became
the more desirable that the poor-rates should be levied
in the most equitable manner. At present the charges
were highly disproportionate ; for instance, in the
parish with which he was connected, the charge for the
maintenance of the poor was more than the aggregate
charge of the rest of the union. In some parishes heavy
rates were levied, while in others there were no rates
paid at all. It was not that in the latter parishes there
was a paucity of population, because he found that the
population of some of these unpaying parishes was con-
siderably larger than that of the parishes in which the
rates were levied. Now, being aware of these fa.ets,
he could not help feeling that there was something radi-
cally wrong in the present system of taxation for the
poor, and therefore he was anxious that the expense of
maintaining the destitute poor of Ireland should be
equally distributed over the whole union, and not con-
fined to particular sections or parishes.—(Hear, hear.)—
He could not understand how the Bill could be carried
out. If he saw the means by which it could be carried
out, he would have no objection to support the measure.
lie felt convinced that large electoral divisions would
not answer, and he thought that the better plan would
be to raise the entire rate for the support of the poor
upon the whole area of the electoral division, and
this was the recommendation which he would propose
to the Committee. Great difficulties would also exist
From the complicated nature of the accounts, which
would be required, if the Bill passed in its present shape.
He did not think that he should have much chance of
carrying his amendment, but he must say that he thought
the motion, which he had read at the beginning of his
speech, was calculated to ensure the more efficient work-
ing of the machinery of a poor-law for Ireland, and he
should feel it his duty to divide the House upon the
amendment.

Mr. BELLEW opposed the amendment.
Sir R. FERGUSSON was understood to be favourable
to the clause as it stood.

Colonel RAWDON entered into some details for the
purpose of showing that in some electoral divisions the
assessment amounted to a large per tentage on the va-
luation, while in other localities it amounted to a mere
trifle. Thus proving the necessity of extending the area
of rating, so as to prevent that unequality. He denounced
such a system as most unjust in its operation. Some
proprietors were in consequence taxed to a considerable
amount, while, others, who were equally entitled to con-
tribute to the support of the poor were altogether
exempted.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM confessed that his opinions
had been materially changed on this subject.
When the Noble Lord first introduced a poor law
for Ireland he had opposed that Bill, but the experience
which he had since convinced him that the Noble Lord
was right, and that he was wrong.—(Hear, hear.) The
Noble Lord, however, did not then introduce any law of
assessment and removal, and he (Sir James Graham)
thought that the time might come when it would be
necessary even in this country to disconnect the law of
settlement from the law of removal. Much might be
said on both sides with regard to the question under
consideration. No doubt the towns frequently suffered
by the clearance of the rural districts, but on the other
hand these latter had also cause of complaint. In
Ireland the rate was levied on the value of
the property, but in England the number
of poor, formed an important consideration in deter-
mining the amount of the assessment. Considerable
difficulty, therefore, arose as to what course should be
adopted consistently with a due regard to all these con-
flicting interests. The Right Hon. Gentleman then
read the opinion of Mr. Gulston, an Assistant Poor-law
Commissioner, in Drogheda, in support of an union
settlement in preference to a parochial one, and pro-
ceeded to say, at one time, be thought enlarging the
area for the rating would be advisable. But further
consideration induced him to think that this would be
inexpedient. He was of opinion, therefore, that it
would be wrong, at present, to substitute a union for an
electoral division rating ; and on the whole, he thought
that the middle course, therefore, in the Bill before the
House, was the preferable one. On the main question,
he would give his cordial assent to the clause of the
Government.

Sir G. GREY said that the great preponderance of
feeling in Ireland was in favour of the course suggested
in the Bill, and it was not without the most careful con-
sideration that it was adopted. The Government at first
intended to place the out-door relief on the union, and
the in-door on the electoral division, but the course now
proposed was the one which seemed to be most satisfac-
tory as well as most just to all parties.
Mr. SHAW supported the rating on electoral divi-
sions in preference to that proposed by the Hon. Mem-
ber for Kerry.

Mr. MACARTHY supported the amendment, and
said that the rating in the city of Cork amounted to
six-sevenths of the rating in the union, and he con-
sidered it was most unfair and unjust that when the
poor-law in Ireland was to be revised this inequality
should not be put an end to.
Sir W. JOLLIFFE supported the amendment. In
many rural districts the rate was only Is. 6el. in the pound,
while i❑ the towns it was from 7s. to Bs. - He thought
the present system operated most unjustly, and
that the propositions of the Honourable Member
for Kerry should be substituted for it. Petitions
had been presented from Drogheda, Ennis-
earthy, Tullamore, Wexford, Mallow, and other places,
in favour of union-rating, whilst few had been pre-
sented against that mode of rating. At present great
and disproportionate burdens were thrown upon the
towns. When any public work was commenced, great
number of labourers came from the country; but when
they were completed, and they became destitute, they
were obliged to be supported by the parish—not out of
rates equally levied on unions, as was manifestly the
proper mode. He was therefore strongly in favour of
a general, or national system of rating, as it would be
one which would not press too heavily upon particular
localities, and would at the same time afford proper re-
lief to the destitute.

Mr. S. CRAWFORD was in favour of the clause as
it stood. lie objected to particular localities being
heavily and disproportionably taxed, but he thought the
amendment would not remove the objection.
Mr. ARCHBOLD said in the district in which he
resided they paid 151. a year for each pauper. There
were but six paupers in the workhouse, who cost them
901. a year. He objected to union rating, because he
considered it would prove injurious to the country, and
instead of having six paupers in the workhouse it would
be impossible to tell how many they would have. He
was in favour of rating electoral divisions.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL replied; nothing had been
stated in opposition to his amendment to lead him to
withdraw it. He therefore should divide the House upon
the question.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority —9s

The amendment was accordingly lost.
Mr. VERNON SMITH considered that sooze power

ought to be vested in the Commissioners to levy rates,
when the board of guardians refused to act. This would
be a much better proceeding than that of dissolving the
board altogether, which was an odious and most in-
vidious act. He wished to know, was there any compul-
sory power vested either by mandamus or otherwise, to
compel the-guardians, after they had struck a rate, to
proceed upon their own act ?
Sir GEORGE GREY said that there was one instance
where a board of guardians was compelled to act upon
their vote.

Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN said that one great ar-
gument he had for not interfering with the present state
of things was, that the present Executive have the
power in their own hands of altering the system to suit
my evil that might arise. There was another way of
meeting these evils. The boards of guardians need not
want for unanimity to remedy any existing evils, for by
merely leaving out the name of the electoral division to
which the pauper belonged, he bec itne chargeable upon
the union at large, and any disturbance of the present
salutary arrangements for so trifling an inconvenience
was unnecessary. After the existing Act was passed,
the same question was raised as to the pressure of the
districts upon the towns, but an Act was passed to re-
medy the inconvenience in 1843, and yet still the pro-
portion of electoral paupers remain just the same. The
lion. and Learned M,ruher for Cork had stated that the
pressure was very severe upon that city, but that pres-
sure arose from the allocation of the paupers of country
districts upon the cities, and could not be
remedied by any existing Aet, for ample provision
existed already to avoid the evil. %V ht-n they
narrowed the area of taxation they induced the inha-
bitants to give relief from private sources sooner than
send the paupers upon the division or district ; besides,
any alteration in the present electoral divisions would
materially increase the difficulty of collecting them.
The Irish peasantry had, from the tricks which were
constantly played upon them in the towns, imbibed the
notion that the townspeople were making large fortunes
at his expense, and, therefore, he would have little wish
to assist in relieving their poverty and misery.
Believing, as he did, that the clause, as it stood, must
lead to union rating, and considering the difficulties to
which it would lead, he had no course left him but to
move the omission of the clause.

Mr. LABOUCHERE said, that after full considera-
tion, the Government thought the present proposition
the best that could be introduced. It was a compromise
between the extreme principles on both sides. He con-
sidered the clause contained a fair system of rating, as
it was but fair that the expense should be equalised.
The subject had often been fully discussed, and the
merits of the mode of rating fully considered. He
hoped the House would not consent to the alteration.

Mr. J. O'CONNELL hoped the Government would
not give way an inch on the question, as the omission
of the clause would be a serious evil, and considered the
attempt to expunge it as an undisguised landlord's
attempt to release themselves from the provisions of the
law.

Mr. D. CALLAGHAN supported the clause.
Lord SANDON thought the present was not a dis-
cussion between the interest of town and country. He
thought the clause objectionable, and would support the
motion of the Hon. Member (Mr. A. S. O'Brien.)
Sir G. GREY—A few months ago there was scarcely
a union in Ireland, in which the rate was more than
one shilling, and, therefore, it was that a provision was
made for doubling the rate.
Lord G. BEN TINCK—What, then, was the reason
for imposing 10,000,0001. during this present year, upon
a rental of 13,000,000/. ? Under the present arrange-
ment they would have to provide for 225,000 fa-
milies permanently.—(Hear, hear.) At the pre-
sent moment there were a million of persons engaged
in the cultivation of the 14,000,000 acres, now occupied
in the growth of agricultural produce. He would like
to ask the Members for Cork and Kilkenny, how it was
that there was such an overgrowth of paupers. In Cork
there was a population of 195,000, with a ratin; of
292,000/. ; and let them then step into Skibbereen,
where there was a population of 23,000, and a rating of
48,0001. Take again the City of Dublin, where there
was a population of 323,000, and a rating of 900,0001.
In Ballina, again, there was the same instance
observable, and he thought then, that by the amalgama-
tion of the towns and the country, that the country
would be the sufferer. The only remedy, then, in his
opinion, was to be found in the proposition of his Hon.
Friend the Member for Northamptonshire. It was well
observed by the Duke of Wellington, in 1837, that by
extending the area of trxation they would only be en-
abling every man to put his hand into his neighbour's
pocket. This was a sufficient reason why the propose•
tion of the Hon. Member for Northamptonshire should
be taken.—(Loud cries of " Divide," with cheers.)
Mr. NEWDEGATE rose amid much confusion, and
said that while the population of England was
16,000,000, while the property assessed was 63,000,0001,
giving a rate of 3/. 18s. 9d. The population of Ireland
was 8.000,000, while the assessment was levied on
13,000,0001, giving a rate of 11. 12s. 6d., making a pro-
portion of two and a-quarter to one. What, then,
was the reason why the poor-rate in England had
been increased from 5,000,000/. to 12,000,0001,
if this motion would not prove a heavy and unjust
imposition on the landlords of Ireland ? From the dif-
ference which these statements showed, there was
a sufficient justification of the motion for the Member
for Northamptonshire, and it would accordingly secure
his vote.—(Cheers and cries of " Divide, divide !")
Lord LINCOLN, as it was his intention to support
the amendment of the Hon. Member for Northampton,
wished to have an opportunity of stating, in two sen-
tences, his reasons for doing so. He could not admit
that this was a question between the landlords of Ireland
and the tenants of Ireland ; for it would be found that
the idea that the social population of Ireland
were in times of distress and want thrown upon towns
was entirely groundless. In consequence of the inten-
tion of Government to adjourn the House to-night
earlier than usual, he had not time to go fully into the
question ; and, therefore, he should content himself by
expressing his belief that in adopting a union rate they
would be inflicting a considerable injury on particular
individuals, while, by agreeing to an electorial division
rate, they would avoid that evil, and render the poor
more dependent upon the law for assistance in times of
distress than upon the exertions of individuals.

Lord J. RUSSELL had only one word to say before
they went to a division. The Noble Lord who had
just sat down and the Hon. Member for Northampton
had argued throughout as if Government proposed to
levy a union rate ; but he must beg leave to remind the
Committee that they had no such intention.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
For the clause
Against it 57
Majority in favour of the clause —6l
The clause accordingly stands part of the Bill.
The Chairman obtained leave to sit on Thursday at
noon, for the purpose of proceeding with this Bill.
Lord J. RUSSELL moved that the House at its rising
do adjourn until Thursday next at twelve o'clock.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned until Thursday next at a fepi
minutes before twelve o'clock.