The Sun.
London, England, 1824-01-23 00:00:00

-MEETING OF SHIP-OWNERS.

Yesterday.a Meeting of the Merchants, Ship-
owners, and Underwriters, of the City of London, was held,
pursuant to public advertisement, for the purpose of taking
into consideration the effects of the present Inoue adopted at
Lloyd's of registering ships. The Meeting was numerously
attended.

Mr. WILSON, 11!.P.' -etas called to the Chair. He briefly
stated the object of the Mai:sting, bat declined entering into the
question, which, he said, would be fully and clearly opened
by others for the discussion of the Meeting—great numbers of
able and most respectable men, by whom he was surrounded.
Mr. MARSHALL then rose, and, after apologising for his
inexperience in public-speaking, addressed the Meeting to the
following effect
Gentlemen—When I first addressed the Committee of the
Ship-owners' Society, in November, on the subject we are now
met to consider, I certainly did not contemplate that I should
have to stand forward, in an assembly like the present, as its
advocate. It is not from any overweening confidence in myself
that 1 venture now to address this numerous and highly respect-
able Meeting ; 1 should have been glad to surrender this subject
to abler heads, of which there are so many here; but having
originated the measures from which this meeting ha; resulted,
I find it is expected that I should submit to you to-day the
further measures which seem to grow out of the previous pro-
ceedings, and in doing so I trust I may reckon on the candour
and indulgence of those who hear me, while I make such pre-
liminary observations as appear to me to be necessary. Having,
when I brought forward the Resolutions which were adopted
at the Ship-owners' General Meeting, stated some of the rea-
sons which in my mind rendered a revision of the present sys-
tem of classing ships indispensably necessary, it would be
superfluous to travel over the same ground again now. I be-
lieve there are very few persons connected with the naviga-
tion of the Empire who do not feel (in the language of the
Resolutions) that in many important respects the present
system is highly objectionable. According to that plan,
age is the criterion by which the shipping of the country is
regulated ; and the operation of that principle decidedly is,
to cause many inferior ships to be built, and to discourage
the repairs of those which have outlived their first character.
It is notorious that many ships are built so hastily, are
composed of such inferior or insufficient materials, and are alto-
gether so improperly constructed, that it may almost be said,
that from the hour they are launched they are unfit to be
employed in the conveyance of cargoes liable to damage ; but
the builders of such vessels have felt that for eight or ten years
they are secure, under the present system, of the first cha-
racter at Lloyd's, and consequently can, at the inferior prices
at which they are enabled to afford them, always find pur-
chasers —(Hear, hear !)—The Merchants, too often acting on
the same principle, give preference to any thing denominated
A. 1. ; and the consequence is, that a large portion of the men-
chant shipping is ft-tr from being what it ought to be. Again,
when a vessel has from age lost her first character, the owner is
deterred in many instances from repairing her, because if he
does so, the estimation of his ship is not proportionably raised,
although she may thereby be made intrinsically better than a
considerable portion of ships .snked in the first class. The
owner reasons thus with himself: If I repair my ship thoroughly
she will still have the Mond of a second rate character ; if 1 do
hot repair her she will stand with the same official designation
at Lloyd's; he therethre runs his ship, to use a well understood
phrase, literally off her legs ; and the consequence is, she da-
mages her cargoes, or perhaps a more serious result occurs—she
founders from insufficiency—and the Merchant and Underwriter
both too frequently experience in one of these results the prac-
tical consequence of the present regulations; whereas if the
principle of classing the mercantile shipping afforded a motive to
its proprietors to have their ships built by scientific men, in an
efficient and durable manner, and held out proper inducement to
keep them in a competent state of repair, if iniconsequenee of
such repairs a ship stood proportionably high in public estima-
tion, and could obtain employment according to her intrinsic
excellence, the Merchant would less frequently have his cargoes
damaged, and the Underwriter would be much more secure
against the losses to which the present absurd system exposes
him._( Hear is —I entreat the Underwriters at Itoyd's to take a
retrospective view of their books during the last few years,
and select the average number of ships lost by foundering
at sea, or abandonment from being water-logged, and inquire
of eminent builders, or competent judges, the principal causes
of this great destruction of property, and they would find, that
a vast majority of these cases have occurred through ill con-
struction, or inefficiency of the vessels, or from the want of those
lelanhYi their books
substantial repairs which they prevent by the mistaken system
they have so long adhered to. Practical men will tell them that
it is to their present mode of registry they have to attribute in
instances
possessesem an demands
e saontilnlee irrep reputation, as far as official
pockets;
ta tioa sloop built ves-
sdesignation can give it, with the best constructed ship ; a limited
u
number of years pass over ; both are removed from the first to
the second letter ; hence arises the inducement to owners to
procure ships at a low price, and their reluctance to keep them
in a proper state of repair. The wrecks I have already alluded
to occur, at once depriving the country of the services of hun-
dreds of valuable seamen, and their families of their dependence
for support ; thereby spreading dismay, want and misery, in
the abodes o a class of men, whose value can hardly be over-
rated, and whose widows and orphans might have contined in
I the enjoyment of comfort, contentment, and happiness, had the
security of those who are indispensable to us, by a due regard
on our part to the efficiency of the vessels in which they boldly
venture their lives, been made a proper object of our care and
attention—tapplauset—while at the same time the Underwriters
would be saved vast sums of money. But, Sir, I do not found
my complaint against the present system, principally on the
grounds I have now mentioned, strong as I regard them to
be. I see the vast mercantile shipping of England without
any general system legitimately devised for its regulation and
government ; and such has been the torpor of its proprietors,
that we actually find it under the controul of persons who have
devised a plan for its management directly opposed to its effi-
ciency, and contrary alike to the interest of the Shipowners, the
Merchant, and the Underwriter; and what is still more re-
markable, the persons who have been so long permitted to ex-
ercise this vast influence over the shipping of the realm, are self-
elected and wholly irresponsible to, and beyond the controul of
those whose property they preside over. It may not here be im-
proper to draw the attention of the Meeting to the origin of the
existing books at Lloyd's : about the year 1760, at a time when
no registry existed, and when the mercantile shipping was com-
paratively small, some inclividualsdeemed it desirable to set about
such a classification as would afford the Underwriters, and others
interested, some information regarding that important branch of
properly. This was at a time when the very name of Lloyd was
hardly known beyond thepFeclac ts ofLombard-street,when the in-
dividual whose name has since become immortalized as the public
designation of the most opulent and important body of men con-
nected with the trade of the world, had not emerged front its
original obscurity; and this effort at any thing like an organiz-
ed classification of ships went on for several years, until about
1798, when the arbitrary and overbearing conduct of some of its
conductors gave such
cause for dissatisfaction, that some per-
sons seceded, and set up a second book, differing in some minor
points from the former, but, like its progenitor, owing its origin
to a few individuals, and both equally devoid of the saction of
public authority. From that time these books have been the
only record of the mercantile shipping, and from the absence
of any other source of information, have from necessity been
resorted to by all concerned ; but such is the disapprobation of
the manner in which they are conducted, that they are sup-
ported only in a very limited degree; and while the funds of
one of these books are quite inadequate to the expence of con-
ducting it, the other,, which has experienced the largest share
of public support, is also travelling slowly, but progressively,
to ruin ; for I am informed, that the expence of conducting
it during the last year exceeded its income by about 6001.! !!
so much as expressive of the want of public approbation and
support of the system on which they are conducted, and such,
must continue to be the result of any system which is founded
on a disregard of public opinion, at variance with the interests of
those most deeply concerned, and presided over by men, who,
however respectable and excellent they may be asindividuals (and
no man can view them in that light with a higher degree of re-
spect than myself nit must be obviouscan have very little practical
knowledge of the management of the property they have assumed
to themselves the power of controuling. The most important
part of the influence exercised by these Committees, has been
the appointing Surveyors in London and the out-ports. Among
those so appointed there are persons of whose professional talents
and integrity I entertain a high opinion, and of whom I wish
to speak with respect ; but they are fallible men, liable to
err in judgment, and consequently should not be invested
with the authority they now exercise. There arc also others,
who should never have been placed in a situation of such
extensive authority and importance ; men alike unfit from
ignorance, self-sufficiency, and selfishness ! And is it to
the controul of such men that our property is to conti-
nue to be subjected ? I ask the Members of the Committees
of the existing books, is there hardly an instance on record,
when on complaint being made of the arbitrary conduct
or ignorance of their Surveyors, in classing particular ships,
of these Committees have personally inspected the cases, and
ascertained, from their own knowledge, whether they were jus-
tified in adhering to the manner in which sucks ships may have
been classed by their Surveyors? If not—if they have uniformly
supported them under complaints of unfairness, or mistaken
estimate on their part, without in any instance ascertaining by
personal inspection whether such complaints have been well or
ill-founded—then I say that, practically, the Surveyors are the
regulators and arbiters of British shipping, and if you concur
with me in this conclusion; I ask, and I intreat your serious an:
tention to my interrogatory, will you—can you—consistently

with a due regard to your own individual interests, to the effi-
ciency of our mercantile marine, and to its just character and
estimation abroad, can you, I say, passively submit any longer to
a system, which operates so detrimentally on our own interests,
and on the-national reputation of our trading shipping ? I have
recently heard it asserted, that the Shipowners and Merchants
' have no right to complain of the system practised by the con-
ductors of ;he present books, that they are private undertakings,
' originated by and having no object but to afford information to
the Underwriters; but, Sir, I can hardly conceive it possible that
the Underwriters can, on such grounds, refuse to concur in the
institution of a Committee of which I seek the appointment.—
If their books never went beyond the precints of Lloy:l's—if
they were accessible to no persons but the Underwriters, for
whose exelusive use and guidance some persons profess they are
published, then indeed the argument would have sonic weight ;
but circulated as they are, not only throughout the united king-
dom, but through every part of the world where British enter-
prise can discover a channel for commercial intercourse, they
stamp not in Britain only, but also in all foreign ports, the cha-
racter and estimation of every British ship which visits theta;
and while, in numerous instances, some of the finest of our
merchant shipping have been unable to obtain employment in
foreign ports, owing to the brand of a second-rate character in
what are generally denominated Lloyd'sbooks, vessels absolutely
unfit to carry perishable cargoes command the choice of employ-
ment, solely from the mistaken and absurd plan of placing them
in the first class from age only.—(Hear, hear !)—I am desirous
at present to avoid putting forward any notions of my own with
respect to the substitution of a better system ; that is the object
and proper business of the Committee I wish to see elected ;
but I cannot refrain from observing, that the present system
of allowing the Surveyors to take fees, imperatively calls for
alteration. It appears to me indispensable to the efficiency of
any plan which may be devised, that the Surveyors should be
liberally paid, so as to command the best talents; but in no
case should they be allowed to receive fees ; and it is one of
the strong objections to the present system, that its conductors
from the want of public approbation and support, are so
crippled in their means that the Surveyors employed by them
are obliged to seek their chief sources of emolument from
those whose property is subjected to their judgment ; and
while man is the creature of interest, while his nature re-
mains what it is, independence and purity of conduct cannot
be looked for under such a system. 1 deem it proper, Sir,
to make these observations, explanatory, in some degree, to
the grounds on which I consider a revision of the present sys-
tem necessary ; it will not, however-' I trust, be expected that I
should, at present, offer suggestions for its improvement. I have
my own views and opinions on that head; but this is not the
moment to put them forward. All I contend for now is, that
solid grounds of complaint exist against the mode practised in
classing our shipping, that up to this period it has gone on, with-
out any general legitimately devised system for its regulation
and government, and that it is essential to the well-being and
prosperity of the commerce and navigation of the Empire, that
a revision of it, in all its details, should forthwith be entered
upon ; and, although it is said, that there are a few indivi-
duals reluctant to part with the system they have so long
presided over, and fenced round with such care, as to inter- I
diet hitherto any thing like approach to it ; yet I trust the
good sense and manly spirit of this Meeting, will not hesi-
tate in supporting the moderate and reasonable proposition
with which I shall presently conclude. That proposition is,
that a Committee to consist of an equal number of the most
respectable, intelligent, and experienced persons, connected
with all the great interests concerned in the definitive settle-
ment of this important question, be now appointed to con-
sider
and report to a subsequent general meeting, what alte-
rations appear to them to be expedient, for the future regula-
tion and classification of the Mercantile Marine, and to suggest
such a cotie of rules and regulations as they shall deem to be
most desirable. If there are those present who do not concur in
represent it ; if it is, as I have heard it asserted to be, as little
liable to objection as any which can be devised by erring man, it
reproposed inquiry, I would submit to them,
system does really work so well as they would
th the
t ani necessity ctehses i
present
ofs enthte stem
has then nothing to fear from a body of men composed of the most
sensible and practical Merchants,Underwriters,and Shipowners.
—A Committee thus constituted would fairly represent all the
great interests concerned, and the result of their labours would,
I am persuaded s
combine the approbation and support of all.
Some consideration and attention too is due to the great body of
Ship-owners whose property is the subject matter in question ;
and among tile the feeling is general and strong, that the sys-
tem under which their property is now controulled, is at once
highly. unjust and oppressivetowarzls them, and exceedingly in-
jurious to the character and efficiency of our Mercantile Marine.
It should, I think, also be an instruction to the Committee, to
suggest the best mode in their opinion of raising a fund liberally
sufficient to meet the necessary expences of conducting the sys-
tem they may recommend to public adoption. The revenues of
the books now in use are estimated to be nearly as follows :L.-The
old book has about 180 subscribers at S guineas each, and 20
guineas each from the Royal Exchange and London Assurance
Companies, give, as I aniline, an income of lAOI. The new
book has about 126 subscribers at the same rate, and, with two
similar donations, realises about 1,0301. If instead of two, only
one book was published, and that on a principal which would
combine general approbation, the aggregate number of sub-
scribers would, I conceive, be much increased, and the ability
to pay fit and competent Surveyors, and other necessary and
efficient officers of the establishment, proportionably augment-
ed. The number of vessels registered in the old book is, in
round numbers, about 14,450; in the new one, about 13,950;
and upon so numerous a marine a revenue might, in my
opinion, be raised without any undue pressure upon its Pro-
prietors fully adequate to the expences of any establishment
in all respects efficient for its objects, and worthy the mag-
nitude, value, and consequence of the mercantile marine of a
country, which, whether contemplated with reference to her
riches, power, freedom, or the intelligence, enterprise, and
happiness of her people, is, in every point of view, the greatest
nation ever yet exhibited to the wonder, the admiration, and the
delight of mankind. Let us not then hesitate in endeavouring
to improve the condition of the property in which we are more
immediately and intimately connected, or be deterred by those
who, for ever doubting the expediency of measures, see grie-
vances perpetuated by their indecision ; let us proceed with
caution, at the same time remember that
" Our doubts are traitors,
And make us lose the good we oft might win,
By fearing to attempt." ,
I trust I have laid sufficient grounds to induce this meeting to
concur in the Resolutions which I will now, with your pennis-
eion submit to you.--( Loud applause.)
de then proposed a Resolution declaratory of the opinion of
the meeting—" That the present mode of registering vessels in
the two books at Lloyd's, was erroneous and injurious to the
Merchant Ship-owners ; that it misled Shippers and Under-
writers,
and tended to prevent the building or repairing of yes-'
sell of a superior quality."
Mr. MIT c:t ELL said, he perfectly agreed with Mr. Mar-
shall in all which he had so clearly and ably stated. He rose
for the purpose of proposing a motion for the appointment of a
Committee consisting of 36, with power to add to their num-
bers, to take into their consideration the best means of obviating
the evil which was felt by all. It was important that the Com-
mittee he proposed should be composed of Gentlemen whose
various avocations would qualify them to put the system of re-
gistration on a footing correct in its principles, intelligible in
its details, and satisfactory to all.—(Applause.)—lt should be
put for the consideration of the Committee to raise a fund for
the purpose of carrying these objects into execution.
Mr. ROBINSON then said, it was essential that all the great
1 interests concerned in the question should be fully represented.
For this purpose he moved that the Committee should consist
of eight Merchants, eight Shipowners, one Resident Mer-
chant from each of the ten principal registered sea-ports in
the kingdom, which were named, one Representative from each
of the two chartered Marine Insurance Companies, and the
re umber to be made up by gentlemen who were Subscribers at
Lloyd's.
Mr. URQUHART expressed a doubt whether any of the
Members of Lloyd's would attend.
Mr. ASHTON stated he had it to say, that the gentlemen of
Lloyd's had not the smallest objection to the appointment of a
Committee, and that they would join hand and heart in the
inquiry.—(Applause.)
After some further discussion, in the course of which several
gentlemen in the room, whom we understood were Members of
Lloyd's, expressed their hearty concurrence in the measure, the
Resolution was carried unanimously.
Thanks were voted to Mr. Marshall for the able manner in
which he had brought the subject forward. Thanks were also
voted to the Chairman, when the Meeting separated.

THE REPORTED GREEK LOAN.—The follow-
ing letter was posted up in the Foreign Stock
Exchange yesterday morning:—

" No. 5, Jefferies-square.

Stn—l beg leave to announce to you, for the information
of the Gentlemen of the Stock Exchange, that the person calling
himself his Excellency tile General Count de Wintz, Knight
of the Order of Stanislaus, &c. has no authority from the Greek
Government for raising any Loan for that Account. The
powers for that purpose are vested in a Gentleman now on his
way to this country.--I have the honour to be, Sir, your obe.

dient servant, " JOHN BO WRING,
" Hon. Secretary to the Greek Committee.
" To R. W. Wade, Esq. Secretary
to the Committee, Stock Exchange."

PRICE 0:

TUIS DAY AT
ftenk stock
237 k
per Cent. Rm.
3 per Cent. eons. B9?-4
i)er Cent 10k
4 per cent. Old 102
tNew
5 per Cents. 1797
I.3ant Long-Ann.
Imp. 3 per-Cents.

STOCKS
TWO O'CLOCK.
India Stock
India Bond, VAis
South Sea Stock .
Old .Annuities .
Ex. Bills
Ditto Small
Bank for Act.
India for Con. Acct
Cons.; for Act.

54 5.6

891 g

PRICE OF FOREIGN STOCKS IN LONDON, JAN. 23,
AT ONE ('CLOCK.
f Five per Cents. 95. .
( Scrip, ,6g pm. .
Six per Cents. 00.
-! Five per Cents. (Metallic) 00.
(Ditto New 89i.
Five per Cent. Bonds, 81,i.
Scrip, 5.i prem.
Five per Cent. Bonds, 1820, 00.
Ditto 1821, 24t.
Ditto 1823, 145 i.
j Five per Cent. Bonds, 91.4.
Danish ( Ditto New, 89k. . •
1
Five per Cent. Bonds, 00.
Portuguese 87.
Peruvian New Loan, 00.
Chili 70.
Colombian Six per Cent. Bonds, C 2
Mexican Loan, 1 prem.
f 00.
( New, 3
( Bank Shares £22 105..--£2l
1 Seven per Cent. 000.
American ) Six per C,nit. 00-000.
tFive per Cent. 00-000.
Three per Cent. 711.

French

nussiatt

Neapolitan
Austrian

Spanish

Prus'ian

Poyais

PRICE OE IRISH STOCK, JAN. 20.
Bank Stock
Goy. Deb. 3,, per cent 971 Ditto 4 per cent.... 404-
Stack, 3,1, per ct 9(3) DittoStock
Royal Canal Stock
Gov. Deb. 5 per cent. -
-Stock, 4 per cent. -
--New 3i Pipe Water Deb. 5 per ct.
Treasury Bills, 5 per cent — Do.
City Debentures, 5 per ct. Ballast Office Govt. Sec.
Lying in Hospital 4 per ct. 5 per cent.
Exchange on London, Jan. 19, Bf.
_......

HIGH WATER AT LONDON BRIDGE TO-MORROW.
Morning, 5 minutes after 8. 1 Evening, 37 minutes after 8.

THE SUN.

SOLEM QUIS DICER FALSUM AUDE,47'.

LONDON,
FRIDAY, JANUARY 23, 18'24.

MEETING OF PARLIAMENT.

On Thursday se'nnight, we understand, Mr.

Secretary CANNING, after an interview with Lord

BAT/ILTRST, upon the state of the Colonies, went

to Coombe Wood, where he remained with the

Earl of LITERPOOL till Saturday, arranging the

heads of His MAJESTY'S Speech, which is to be

delivered in person on the opening of Parlia-
We are assured that the Speech will.