The Sun.
London, England, 1840-06-12 00:00:00

as no doubt they were, were well placed, I con-
fess that there is one feeling in my mind, which I
trust will be responded to by the country, and that is
that there ought to be some expression of thankfulness to
Him by whom Kings reign and Princes decree justice,
f,:r her Majesty's deliverance. I think that there ought
to be a general day of thanksgiving throughout the
country.—( [dear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said—Sir, if I decline saying
anything upon the subject adverted to by the Hon. Mem-
ber, I beg that it may not be supposed that I do not feel
the deep importance of the subject, and the value of the
suggestion of the Hun. Member.
The Address was then agreed to nemine emaradieente,
and a message to that effect was taken to the House of
Lords by Lord John Russell, and the other Members who
had attendrd the Conference.
Sir R PEEL wished to know when the Address would
be taken up te her Majesty.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he believed that it
would be received to-morrow, but he could not say pcsi-
tively.
Sir R. PEEL wished to know whether the Noble Lord
proposed that the whole House should take up the Address.
Lord JOHN JOHN RUSSELL was understood to
answer in the affirmative.
IRISH REGISTRATION BILL.
Lord STANLEY then moved that the House should
r -solve itself into a Committee on the Registration of
Voters (Ireland) Bill, No. 1.
Mr. CHAS. WOOD then rose for the purpose of mak-
ing the motion of which he gave notice last night. That
the present question might not he treated in a party spi-
rit, he thought he had already given most painful proof,
and it was upon that ground that ho would ven-
ture to recommend to the House the adoption
of the only course by which they could usefully discuss the
present measure. lie had expressed his opinion before
that it would not be difficult to alter the Bill of his Noble
Friend the Member for North Lancashire, so as to make it
conform to those principles which his Noble Friend the
Secretary of State for the Colonies had laid down as the
basis of the measure he proposed for England. That was
his opinion still. He voted for proceeding with the Bill
because he thought it could be amended in Committee, but
if :t were not, then at all risks he would have been pre-
pared to vote against it. There were many matters for
discussion that it would be most important to discuss with
the utmost calmness and temper—there was the question
of costs both to appellant and complainant—there was the
question of appeal—of the manner in which the Appeal
Courts should be formed—whether the decisions in those
Courts should be conclusive as against the House—all of

Member had not given him notice of his intention to state
the circumstances with respect to the tenants of Mr. Ling.
The facts had been staled by him on the authority of a
gentleman, who said they ware a matter of public notoriety
in the country.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the Noble Lord had
assumed that he had shown an example of temperance and
moderation which the other side of the House ought to
follow. The Noble Lord, at the same time, had accused
him ( Lord John Russell) of extreme disingenuousness,
and had taken the opportunity of accusing generally those
who claimed the franchise in Treland of every manner of
fraud, perjury, and corruption. He wished to state why he
was not exposed to the reproaches of the Noble Lord.
The Noble Lord was well award that Registration Bills
for England and Ireland had been introduced by the
Government, and he was also aware that it had been made
matter of charge against her Majesty's Government in a
pamphlet distributed at the end of the Session. entitled
Lord Lyndhurst's Review of the Session," that they
sent up Bills to the House of Lords which their Lord-
ships could not agree to, or that they had refused their
assent to the amendments made by their Lordships. He
certainly could not go the length of the Noble Lord in say-
ing that they ought to reject their own opinions and adopt
those of the Lords. With the view of preventing the
delay that had taken place on former occasions, he had
taken the Canada Bill, the Registration Bill, the Poor-
law Amendment, and the Ecclesiastical Duties Bill, at an
early period of the Session, and he was prepared, after
these Bills had passed the House of Commons to bring
forward a measure with respect to the registration -of vo-
ters in England. The Noble Lord, however, chose to
adopt a different course, and to consider the evils cf the
registration in Ireland as paramount to all other subjects.
It was not necessary, however, that the Government
should change its opinion and adopt the course suggested
by the Noble Lord.—( Hear, hear.) With respect to the
motion of the Hon. Member for Halifax, he must say, that
considering the whole vitality of the Bill was owing to the
vote given by 1113 Hon. Friend—(Laughter)—the propo-
sithn had been very ungraciously received by the other
side of the House. The proposition was one far more
likely to lead to the amendment of the system of registra.
tion than that of the Noble Lord. He complained of the
number of days which bad been taken up by party motions
from the other side of the House, and which had prevented
him (Lord John Russell) from introducing his Bill at an
earlier period. It appeared to him most injudicious to in-
troduce the English system into Ireland before it had re-
ceived the sanction of experience in that country. For
these reasons he should support the motion of the Hon.
Member for Halifax. He did not wish to re-argue the

these matters required the most calm and temperate conside- question now as to whether the measure was good or inju-
ration—it was impossible they could receive that calm dis- rious, but his opinion remained unchanged, that although
cussion upon the Irish Bill. Whichever of the Bills, evils existed in the Irish registration, he did not think that
whether that for England or Ireland came on Tor dicussion the measure of the Noble Lord was the one best calculated
must raise those points, and he thought they could be much to meet the evil. The whole object of registration was to
better discussed upon the English Bill than the Irish one. get a list of qualified voters to send representatives of that
That was the real and only object of his motion, but he was part of the empire. He (Lord J. Russell) did not know that
afraid his Noble Friend was not prepared to acquiesce in of Ireland the Irish Members were less the representatives
it.—(Cheers.) His motion applied in the first instance than Eaglish Members of this country. The question of
to the Bill of the Noble Lord the Member for North registration itself was certainly a most important one. It
Lancashire ; but it applied equally to the Bill of the So- was possible that under it bad votes might be admitted.
licit,r-General for Ireland ; and, with respect to the lat. But it was also quite as possible that by a too perplexed
ter, he believed his Noble Friend was ready to acquiesce. and complicated system you might, under the guise of re-
-( Cheers.) His object was to postpone both of these form, really cripple and restrict the franchise.—( Hear.)
Bills until the House had coolly and calmly considered the Sir R. PEEL said, the Hon. Member for Wicklow
Bill for England. He was not aware of what amount of had declared that he would not vote for the postponement
support his motion would receive. It was only last night of the Bill sine die, and that he was prepared for a full
that his Noble Friend the Secretary for Ireland informed and fair discussion. Now, after the speech of the Noble
him that the Government did not intend to oppose the Lord, could the Hon. Member doubt that the effect of the
committal of the Noble Lord's Bill any further, and since present proposition would be to indefinitely put off the re-
then he had had no time to have any communication with form of flagrant abuses?—( Hear, hear.) The Noble
his friends. His (Mr. C. Wood's) sole object was to 'r Lord gave no assurance that i.e would proceed even with
procure full and fair discussion of a subject applying the registration of England.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble
equally to both counties. Whatever might be the fate of Lord said other subjects were of more pressing im-
his motion he had now done that which he felt to be his portance.—( Hear, hear.) Therefore, the Noble Lord
duty, and which he believed would ensure the passing would, in fact, by supporting this postponement,
of some measure upon the subject after calm and dispas- really be driving off this measure. He (Sir Robert
passionate discussion.—(Hear.) Peel) was surprised that the Noble Lord should take
Lord STANLEY said he could assure his Hon. such a course.—( Load cheers.) After the House had
Friend that he gave him the fullest credit for the thrice debated, and twice, upon division, solemnly af-
motives which he alleged, and his declaration of the ob- firmed its principle, would it respect its own character by
ject he had in view—a calm and candid discussion of . now thus evading its decision.--( Hear, hear.) The Hon.
the subject. But be must add that if there were a sin- Member for Halifax, it had been said, had given vitality
gle form of motion which could be devised for the pur- to the Bill by his former vote. If so, certainly the
pose of quietly shelving the Bill—Loud cheers)—without Honourable Member had shown very little affec-
exposing any Members to the odium of voting against tion for his own offspring—( Laughter and cheers)—
the Bill in principle or details—(Cheers)—that motion and was about effectually to smother it.—( Laughter. )
was the one which bad been proposed by the Hon. Mem- The Noble Lord had never intimated in this, or preceding
her for Halifax. Could it be pretended that there was Sessions, that the consideration of the English registra-
any force in the objection that the Irish question would he tion should precede the Irish. Five or six years had
better discussed on the English Bill, when every Member the Noble Lord considered this subject, and not till live
knew well, that, though nominally an English measure, o'clock last evening had the Noble Lord discovered this
the Irish question was in the minds of all ?—(Hear, new idea.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord's own legal
hear.) For himself he would say that he had carefully authorities had brought in Bill after Bill on the same sub-
avoided all exciting and irritating topics, thought as- ject—never had this pretext for postponing it been urged.
railed by attacks which he disdained to notice.— —.( Hear, hear.) Even during the late discussions, when
(Cheers.) All he asked was that the House would
_all( theeaar,rghuemare.) u
arguments thatp to five o'clock
coeld beenlisteydesitnerdtah)e,
tchaeusNeohbaled
go fairly into Committee to effect that which the been dragged forward, this pretence had not been used.
lion. Member for Haifa* admitted might fairly and H
easily be done—the proper amendment of the Bill. Lord meant to vote for the committal of the Bill.—( Hear,
If the proposition of hiseHon. Friend had been made on bear.) Did the Noble Lord think it creditable to the cha.
the part of her ,NlajetiO Government at the commence- racter of the House that the measure, having been twice
arent of the Session, in the month of March—if then, her carried, should now be thus evaded ?—( Hear, hear.) The
Majesty's Government bad come forward and said that effect of this proposition would be to place Irish Re-
they admitted the abuses, and that the question of a gistration Reform completely in the hands of the
remedy was open to discussion—that those points should Noble Lord ; for, of course, if Irish registration was not
be settled for England as well as for Ireland, and that the to be reformed, but the English registration, the Noble
House should have an opportunity of pronouncing its opt- Lord would be wise enough to keep the English reform
nion on the details of the measures for regulating the back, to delay longer that inconvenient measure of Irish
Registration in England and Ireland, he had no hesitation reform, which the Government so dreaded.—( Hear,
in saying he would have assented to it, and he would hear.) What reason was there for considering the mea-
not only willingly but gladly have waived his own sures both together ? The principles of them were in
Bill, and adopted the other proposition as most advanta- many respects different. Why not discuss on the Irish
'oeous to the welfare of the community. But in what Bill the great question of whether the registering should
way, and at what time had the Bill been introduced by the be final ? And was it not absurd to suppose that the dis-
Noble Lord ?—(Hear, hear.) How was it announced, and cussion would be more calm on the English Bill, when
what was the intention? It was plain that it formed a everybody knew it referred to the Irish Bill?—(Hear.)
convenient excuse for the purpose of postponing his (Lord Lord PALMERSTON said he was so anxious to re_
Stanley's) Bill, the principle of which had pre- taro the vote of his Hon. Friend the Member for Wicklow
viously on two occasions obtained the assent of the from the seductive appeal of the Right Hon. Baronet—
House—( Hear, hear)—and then lagging a 3 the English ( Laughter)—that he really must say a few words. The
Registration Bill had come, still more late and lagging Right Hon. Baronet had no ground for saying that his
came the Bill of the Solicitor-General for Ireland, who Noble Friend wished the English Bill to take precedence,
'to doubt was perfectly ready to acquiesce in the motion of to enable him to evade the Irish Bill. His Noble Friend
the lion. Member for Halifax.—( Cheers, and laughter.) had said no such thing.—( Hear, and laughter.) His
He looked upon the present motion in its effect, whatever Noble Friend could not have meant any such thing.—
the Hon. Member's motives might be, as nothing more than ( Hear, and laughter.) What his Noble Friend meant to_
a means of carrying into effect the declaration of the lion. say—( Hear, and laughter)—his argument was founded on
and Learned Member for the City o! Dublin, and for political reason and expediency for the postponement of
which he declared that he and his friends owed a large the Irish Bill to be better considered after the English
debt of gratitude to the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Bill. The best way was to render the English system
Colonies, that it would have the effect of preventing the first as perfect as possible, and then settle the Irish regisa
fair discussion of his (Lord Stanley's) Bill in Committee, tration.—( Hear.) And if it was said that this objection
and by hanging it up until such time as it might please had never occurred to their minds before, he ( Lord Pal-
the Secretary for the Colonies to bring forward his Regis- merston) replied that nobody ever before anticipated such
tratiort Bill for England, and after the discussion of all its a measure as this.—(Tremendous cheering from both sides.)
principles to obtain the sanction of the House to them, by Mr. CALLAGHAN strongly denied what the pally
postponing the Bill now on the I Ith of June, it would be opposite were very fond of asserting—that fraud, per-
utterly impossible that either his or the Solicitor-General sonation, and perjury were common in the Irish registra-
for Ireland's Bill could be carried in the course of tion.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") The Fctitious Votes
the present Session, but they would be left, as Cornmitee had been referred to. The report and evi-
the Hon. Member for Halifax had termed it, "in their dente by no means justified such a sweeping charge.
present relative position."—( Hear, and a laugh.) No doubt There had not been one case of personation.—( Oh.) He
there were many provisions of the English system which it asserted that.—(Hear.) Yet the Noble Lord had the
might be necessary and convenient to apply to Ireland. hardihood to make a general accusation.—(Hear.) As
No doubt it might be necessary to discuss the propriety of to frauds, certainly persons were on the registry without
registering annually or octennially. No doubt the question qualifications—( Hcar)—but no proof of fraud was given.
of an appeal to some tribunal, and the mode in which that —( A laugh.) The question was, which was the right
Court of Appeal should be constituted, ought to be dis- qualification ?—( Hear.) There had been no case of
cussed. No doubt as regarded the two Bills it might be bribsry in Irish elections since the Reform Bill, like
fitting to discuss the question of whether costs should be Hull, and Cambridge, and Ludlow.--( Hear, hear.)
given in cases of frivolous objection, or whether it should Lord HO WICK denied strongly that it was his inten-
be extended to cases of frivolous claims. All these were tion to evade the Bill without incurring the shame of re-
questions of importance in themselves, but they did not af- versing former decisions. The part that he and his lion.
feet the principle of the Irish Registration Bill. Whatever Friend the Member for Halifax had taken in supporting
might be the inconvenience or annoyance of the English the second reading of the Bill—(Oh, oh, from the Con-
system, they had the same crying and acknowledged evils, servatives, and ironical cheers)—bore him out in that.—
the same acknowledged abuses, which no man had stood up ( Hear.) But the fact was, there were two parties con..
in the course of the discussion on the subject in that House cerned in the Irish registration dispute—( Hear, hear)
to palliate, crying out for legislation in Ireland for the one party charged with having the under-
last seven years.—(Cheers.) And knowing how dif- hand aim of supperting fraud and perjury, and the other
ficult it was to apply a remedy to these minor de- with the equally unworthy design of restrictions under
tails in the English system in the face of the the pretence of reforming the franchise. Thank God, to
crying abuses, the House of Commons was to be gravely this pass the question had not yet come in England.
told, at the conclusion of tire Session, that till they agreed ' Therefore it was the subject could more calmly and dis-
to those details, no remedy was to be applied to the cor- passionately be discussed on English ground.—(Hear.)
ruption, and perjury, and personation, and fraud which de- And this he would tell the Noble Lord, that if he (Lord
filed the Irish system.—( Loud cheers, and a cry from the Stanley) had in view the effecting of a party triumph
;Ministerial benches of " Hard names.") Hard names they under the mask of a zeal for reform—(Cheers)—and
might be, but they were not harder than were borne out raising an unfounded prejudice against the Government,
by the evidence before Committees of that House, and he could not have taken a better course for such an object.
be would repeat them, that there was fraud, personation, Had not the Right I-Fin. Gentleman the Member for Tam-
corruption, and perjury.--( Cheers from the Tory benches, worth stated that the Noble Lord the Secretary fur the
followed by cries of " No, no," from the Ministerial Colonies, had adopted an underhand and dishonourable
benches.) Over and over again they had been proved be- course to evade a division which he could not fairly meet—
Cheers, and Tory counter cheers)—and that if the mea-
fore Committees of that House.—(Cries of " Name,
.(
name.") Before the Fictitious Votes Committee, and in sure of the Noble Lord were adopted, the Noble Lord
all the debates on the subject, the charges that had been would then contrive to postpone his own measure, and to
e off the disagreeable discussion of the Bill of the
factsLTrioleught
Noble Lord opposite;?-( Cheers and laughter from the
that enormous charge existed,
as being inseparable from Tory benches.) The Right lion. Baronet had no right
fo
weree w ar de
hh ardecnoervde,rebnedetwi aernesweenrdeisdp. —u t
e(dH;e earn,
dh
we ahri.l
e) sta s.
and engendered in it, no man had attempted to bring the to make that insinuation.—( Cheers, and cries of Oh,
same charges against the English system. Therefore, he oh. )—He would not merely say that such an insinuation
would say that the cases were not similar, and that the ought not to be made against his Noble Friend, whose
one Bill could not, in justice and fairness, be made to conduct was always so fair and honourable in that House—
bane upon the other; but if they were made the one to ( Cries of " Oh, oh," and cheers)—it ought not to have
hang upon the other, then he would say it was the been made against any gentleman who had the honour of
duty of that House
to apply themselves to the a seat in Parliament.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
lie did not
.
instance—to di
in the firstdiscuss not think it seemly or decorous to impute to any Member
greater grievance
L d cheers.) H
first.—( ona was of that House such motives as the Right Hoar. Baronet
the grosser abuses
motion were carried, the only had imputed to the N
convinced that if the present
week after
that day after day, and . week, If his Noble Friend had had such motive the House
result would be,
the Bill would be postponed
from time to time, as the con- would not allow him to take advantage ofthe
lead them ; and then,
venience of the Government mightwere_. of the Noble Lord opposite, and to turn the Noble Lord's
knowing, as he had stated, that they , approaching concession
against himself.—( Hear, hear, and cries of
the close of the Session, and havingnear,yw wound up all " Oh, oh.") When he heard it stated that an acquiescence
the essential and necessary businfeshse, and having
House assenteed pourer
in the course proposed would be the same thing as giving
to the
of prorogation in their hands,
if
Halifax, although up the whole question for another ear, he must say, that
motion of the Hon. Member the all things considered, he thought it would give
of the 'louse, he 1
Bill might still remain on the order-bookthe better prospect of arriving at a settlement of the
for one should feel that it remained there hopelessthreei of that question in the present Session.—( Hear, and " Oh, r h.")
uocess which, he would venture to say, three In two days the English Bill. would
!rasa through Com-
and three divisions of the House had at least d
entitled it to
mittee—principles would have been laid down—the way
in point of principle.—( Loud cheers.) would have been cleared—and the increased rapidity of
regretted Mr. JAMES GRATTAN that tire N t roble iei r progress, when they came to consider the Irish mea-
Lord, in recommending temper and med eration to his sure, would more than compensate for the loss of time.—
( Mr. Grattan's) side of the House, had not acted up to ( Hear, hear and cries of " Div de, divide.") He would
his own recommendation.—(Hear, hear.) The Bill of the
only
say forgone, that in supporting the proposition of his
Noble Lord was one to disqualify and disfranchise 'lon. Friend the Member for Halifax, he had no view of
rand, although the motion, of
the people of Ireland; defeating the measure of the Noble Lord opposite.—
for Halifax had taken oh," and " Divide.") On the contrary
tile Honourable Member (Cries of " Oh,
certainly votefor it in prefer- he would say
him by surprise, he should
that if the same question were again before
area to the Noble Lord's Bill. The Noble Lord stated the House he would repeat the vote of the other night, if
that the charges which he made had not been refuted, but it drew upon him again the same obloquy.—( Hear, hear.)
on a former occasion he (Mr. Grattan) in reply to charges lie gave that vote, after all the consideration which he
brought against certain persons, the tenants of Mr. I
Ling, could give the subject, and if the question were again be-
who had personated voters in the county with which he fore the House, he would repeat the vote.—( Ironical
was connected, that charge had been promptly met and d cheers from the Opposition.) On the same principle—
put down. He made application to parties connected • apart from all party considerations—fer the sake of obtain-
with, and lieing near the ertates of Mr. Ling, who do- in.. a good system of registration of voters in Ireland, he
dared that they knew nothing of them, and believed them , would now vote for the proposition of his Hon. Friend
to have been mere fabrications.—( Hear, hear, and a 1 the Member for Halifax.—(Cheers and counter-cheers.)
laugh,) With respect to the Noble Lord's Bill, he thought j Mr. HENRY GRATTAN rose amidst deafening cries
it a most revolutionary and flagrant measure, and he would ' of " Divide, divide," " Withdraw, withdraw.") He would
be neglecting his duty to his constituents and his country vote for the proposition of the Hon. Member for Halifax.
if he did not given it every opposition in his power. On ;
___(.. Divide," " Withdraw," &c.) He was prepared for
these grounds he should certainly divide with the Hon, the course adopted on this occasion by Tory Members_
Member for Halifax. ' (Cheers.) He knew that when in former times a Bill for
Lord PO WERSCOURT regretted that the Hon. Trish liberty was introduced the Tory Members kicked it