The Sun.
London, England, 1824-02-17 00:00:00

NAVY ESTIMATES..

Sir GEORGE CLERK rose to bring forward the Navy Es.,
timates for the present year; and, after the great reductions
which had already taken place in our naval department, (lid not
apprehend that any further ones were likely to be proposed.—
The vote called for this year was 320,0001. more than had
been taken last, because it was necessary to make some small
addition to our present force. He anticipated no objection to
this from the gentlemen on the other side, because their com-
plaint for some time had. been rather that cur naval establish-
ment was too low. The unsettled state of some partsof the world
to which the commerce of England was now, with every pros-
pect of advantage, extending itself, would fully excuse the
trifling additional expence which was contemplated ; and in ad.
dition to this. consideration, there was the probability that the
piratical depredations in the West Indies, which now were en-
tirely stopped, would recompence if our strength in that.quar-
ter was withdrawn,;. and the necessity for maintaining out
power in the Mediterranean, aslong as the present disputes ex-
. isted between Turkey and her Greek dependencies. With re.,
apect to the petition which had been presented by the Hon.
Member for Aberdeen, the subject was already under the con-
sideration of the Admiralty, who was. not blind to its import-
ance. The fact was, in some measure, that from. o,e great.
exigencies of the late war service; it had been found necessary.
to build ships without those precautions, which would have
been used under circumstances. of full leisure. Timber had
'been used, in many cases, which was not sufficiently season,
ed. We were now, however, using every means to avoid: the
evil to which the Honourable Member for Aberdeen alluded.
Ships were built under cover ; the timber employed was pet-.
fectly dry ' • and the coal-tar—as to the harmlessness of which
he had understood the Honourable Member to be satisfied,—
the coal-tar was made use of, and as was believed, with good
effect. Independent of these precautions, an experimet t was
now making whether the dry rot might not be prevented by
immersing the wood in salt water before it was worked up ;
and lie begged to.state that the Comptroller of the Navy, whose
information upon the matter was much better than his (Sir
George Clerk's) own, would be fully prepared to answer, if ne-
cessary, all the allegations in the Hon. Member for Aber-
deen's petition. The Hon. Baronet concluded, by stating, that-
the extra charge of 320,000/. incurred, was to meet the, cost of
4,000 additional seamen (making our establishment, from 26;000
men, 29,000, including a 'force Of 9,000 marines), together with
certain expenses arising out of the increased price of provi-
sions ; and by moving that a sum not- exceeding 885,950/.
should be granted for wages for the Navy, for the year corn-
mencing January, 1824.
Mr. WARRE wished to put. a question with respect-. to the.
arrangements of the preventive service, which had established a
sort of gentiormerie—for it could be compared to nothing else—
upon our shores. The high duties imposed in time of war were,
now that France and England were at peace, operating as such
a bounty-upon contraband trade as. no vigilance could-with-
stand, and producing actually a regulargusrilla warfare between
the Government force and the smugglers. We had now no
fewer than 1,700 men employed in the preventive service,
patrolling-upon our coast. He wished also to,know if, in case
of any addition being made to the fbrce appointed to the coast
blockade, the additional forces would be put under the same
commands as at present. There was one ship of war stationed
in the Downs to watch over aline of coast so extensive, that the
officer who there held..controul was either on horseback or in
the boat, night and day continually, for weeks together. This
he might do from his.zeal and anxiety to complete a system of
his own creation ; but. it was, too much for the country. to
receive from the service of. any one man. For his own part,
he did not believe that while .the duties on foreign spirits and
wine were as high as at present, they ever would be able to
prevent smuggling. It was impossible to make those persona.
who were engaged in bringing in contraband commodities feel
any moral compunctions upon the subject of their: employment,
while they were tempted with. the bounty offered -by the prevent.
enormously high duties. His only object, however,lrerising,
was to know- if any, and what:portion of this:additional force
of 6,000 men was to be put under- the command of the gallant
officer.to whom he had alluded.

Sir G. CLERK said, thatit was the intention of Government
to continue the system of the Preventive Service as at present,
established ; which, notwithstanding the remarks of the Hen.
Member; had operated' with most complete success. There hacl,
been one violent and bloody affray upon the coast of Kent,
which had been much dwelt on by the opponents of. the system,;
but it: was. merely the last desperate-efforts of the, srouggler.s
in that. part to defend, their •unlawlnl occupation against..
the encroachments of the PreventiveService..' was
,vtry,
true that Captain M'Culloch had - his• whole heart: in. the
success, of the' system,. of which- .he:. thei egntriYert and
that: his duties were- of: a veep weighty,. kind,. his. corm:nap&
.reaching-iniextenk front. Chichester., ,weßkwitolt, to;:tho: isle. o(
Sheppey, eastward. Of the additional force now asked
seen were.:to plate& mkt. the:. sOparintAndarrocand sec -
tiOnlOf . XheLiwriettAkessiktix:ethivlriclint tbilt
vision made the running of-spirits more easy than in other

aleiee. But he could only say, that the greater part of the
snieggling now carried on took place without the limits of the
v.:ay.-blockade. He admitted that the high duties on spirits,
reni.e.teed necessary by the large amount of taxes which must
reeesity be retied, offered i a great inducement for smug-
gileg, and therefore the preventive service naturally operated
less effectively in those parts of the coast which offered most
latihities for . the introduction of spirits.
;All. DAVIES doubted the last proposition -.of the gallant
Titer, that the amount of taxes could be augmented by such
eaorreces-duties on foreign spirits, and if the proper mode of
Rog:tient:ohm would not be considerably to reduce the duties,
orcii wooi.lai aenabletheintogetridot'thattnostexpensivesys-
fem of coat-blockade. By return for which belied moved in the
anst session. • It appeared that the eapence was no less than
tliViooo/. in the collection of that h"raneh of the revenue only.—
ei via* ills invention, heforelong, tei show how the revenue might
bs tietiefited and the establishment reduced by the adoption of
aorerr rtiotonithie policy. It was in vain to look for the ex-
tinction cf smuggling to the Preventive Service. Those velio
violated the hies by the introduction of contraband goods had
co immoral intentions--consegnently there was no direct dread
et the ignominy in the punishments which they had to fear.—
eere•wais nothing is the laws so prolific of crime (the laws
contenting poachers alwitya excepted) as the laws which went
is ;tie prevention of smuggling. As to the interests of the re-
set ae, he pledged himself, on a future day, to prove that they
neteineterially and constantly injured by the continuance of
an, present very high duties:
.%r. HUME was not satisfied with the view of any addition
• to the navy, nor did he like the mode in which the accounts
wsee laid .hrfore the House. It was impossible to choose any
method in which mischief would be more likely to arise, than
the combining of the preventative service with the regular means
of defence -for the country. The liousr was kept from know-
ineothe limits -of either branch of the service; and if it were not
toeit was next to impossible to ascertain the expenceof collect-
-• .inns the revenue; and consequently, they were without the power
nifailliberating upon the propriety of keeping up particular
k.irels of duties : they were proceeding altogether upon an erroe
-neotte principle. Formerly the naval estimates were kept en-
tirely distinct from the charges for collecting the revenue. The
naval officers on their different stations were at hand, and fre-
suently assisted in the caption of smugglers. It was no advan-
tage to the character of English seamen to be identified with the
tedlectors of the revenue—it would rather lower, than improve
:Lem. They would be anxious, for the sake of tits additional
pay and the milder kind of discipline, to get into that line of the
service. He wished that the estimates had continued to. set oat,
ea had been done up to last year, what force and expences
weee-wanted for the defence and protection of the country,
and what for the prevention of smuggling, He had moved for
returns which would be of great use in elucidating the system'
of the preventive service, as they would chew how far the re-
dieetion of duties in Scotland and Ireland had tended to the.
decrease of smuggling on those coasts. But what necessity
could there be for 29,001) men this year ? Ile remembered
very well that a Noble Lord, now no more, had held out hopes,
in 1817 and 1018, that they were to have the navy reduced to
-the limits of its establishment in 1792, at which time, and be-
fore, it did not exceed 16 or 17,000. That Nobleman justified
the continuance of the then establishment by the state of the
world, which was not settled down into that permanent and un-
questionable tranquillity which they had good reason to expect.
Since then all the measures which he and his coadjutors had in
hand were completed. Never was the state of the world more
entirely settled and at rest. The war was at an end in Spain ;
the American President had set at rest all questions respecting
• the independence of :he South American Colonies. Thanks to
him and not to : his manly behaviour had dune that which,
dose bastardly fear of speaking cut to the potentates of Europe
had hindered us from doing. This might in a very good
ground of complaint between Spain and the United States,
bet there was nothing in it to require an • increase of the
rat,-al force, we having resolved at all hazards not to go to war.
sic admitted to !Ministers that the proper interests of the
ceentry should induce them to cultivate peace. Then. if they
iats, any reasons to apprehend war, (though he tioubteetielie
,general value cf the information which they received), let
triern speak out and tell the country exactly what was to he
expected. There ought to lo some good reason assigned for
to e present augmentation. The navy of England, both in
ships and men, exceeded the navies of all the other Powers.—
What was wanted with more ? They ought not to be voted
uniess it could be shewn that there was danger imminent.—
I'd render the navy efficient, however, much more was,neces-
sary besides men. There were defects in the whole of the
arrangements of the naval service, which were inimical to i:s
strength and welfare. How came it, then, in a time of pro-
found peace, the captains of the few ship; which were corn-
reiesioned found a difficulty in making up the complements of
their crews ? He believed that the reason would be found in
the late regulations which had crept into the rules of the ser-
vice. Tile class of officers now employed was not filled up
from the old, valued, and experienced officers. The late pro-
motions seemed to have been taken upon a better principle.
Bat world the House allow the Navy to go on as it was itepreS
-neat conducted ? i o come to the radical defect; formerly it
vat the pride of die service that the son of any man, however
w his condition or rank, might, by entering into., the Navy,
open to himself a sure way to the highest honours. of the pro-
fnenion ; and thie facility of advancenient in the service-used to
vorantingly contrasted with the naval services of France or
train, in which tie one could hope for a command, except he
were a cadet of some branch of the Royal Family, or was at
huts,: distinguished by his amorial quarteridge. To this dif-
ference was attributed, and with great truth, too, the great su-
periority of the -English over any other navy. He held in his
hand as order in Council, dated 19th .January, 1803, which
prohibited all persons holding warratiti, including toasters,
from passing examination as persons eligible for promotion in
the direct line of the service. The only exception to this order
wee the schoolmaster, who was sure to know lees of nautical af-
t-airs than any other officer, and was therefore "less fit for that pro-
motion which was secured to hint and denied to others whose ex-
perience and qualifications were unquestionable. The House must
reerAlect the admission made by Lord Howe, that he owed his
crielizated victory to the skill of the master of his Sill') more
titan to his own. Why should so valuable a class of officers
be excluded from promotion ? Why should there be any
more bar to it than to the promotion of itergeants i- the
army, many of whom had advanced themselves by `their
merit to great honours and distinction ? Let this be done
away, and then naval people of all ranks would readily flock to
the standard whenever the service of the country required it.
Whatever number of men were needed, let them be perfectly
satisfied, and then the navy would always be efficient. He con-
eidered the system of impressment an intolerable grievance, and
only equalled by the terrible system of discipline which gave
tinffsdered boys the power of flogging veterans without the
intervention of a Court-Martial, the natural and certain lemons
of protecting the service from abuse. Upon the whole he could
stiena reason for augmenting the naval force; and unless he
heard some better reason titan had bean advanced, he would
persist in dividing the House upon an amendment which he
would now submit—that instead of 29,000 men, the number
25,f;J9 should he substituted in the vote.
CLERK said, that as to the period of 1817, to which
allution-had been made by the Hon. Gentleman, there was no
time in which the Hon. Gentlemen opposite had been more
unitisi in their objections against Ministers for reducing the
Navy to what they considered too low and inefficient a standard.
lion. Member had asserted that no reason was given for
the increase of the naval force, except the coast blockade. He
must have been unfortunate in trying to make himself under-
mood, or the Hon. Member would have known what he meant
by the reference which lie had made to the unsettled state of
the Spanish American and the British Vest India Colonies,
and the inconveniences to which the disturbed relations
between Spain and her Colonies had given rise in the
western seas. It was impossible for so formidable a power
as Great Britain to allow the quarrels arising between in-
ferher belligerents, to interrupt her merchandise the
ottirg hemisphere ; and as large a force as the whole of the ad-
dition now asked, would be less than was required to restrain
the petty piracies within the West India seas. The difficulty
oCeetting men for the ships, he was happy to inSorra the Hon.
>leather, was only imaginary—no ship had suffered any cocci-
,sable delay on that account. As to the inirressmentwhich
bound men to the service for life, the Hon. Member must he
ignorant of the regulation which limited the period of service in
time of peace to three years. When the exigencies of state re-
qohad it, men must be compelled to serve in the navy even by
force. In referring to the orders in Council, the lion. Member
had neglected to quote a very important exception, which
opened the line of promotion to masters who should distinguish
themselves. The fact was, that no class of naval officers was
so valuable as the masters, anti therefore all that could be &lie
in the fair regulations of the service, was done to retain them
in their situations, but this was not. without duly warn-
ing them, that in accepting the master's warrant they excluded
themselves from the direct line of promotion. The rules of the
eeevico gave us much facility to a foremast-man to advance him-
self as ever. As to unfledged boys enjoying too mach power
in the service, the present regulations did away all grounds for
any such complaint. No midshipman could pass for lieutenant,
unlees he were lie years of age; and no officer could obtain a
„spoon** commission unless he had served two years as lieu-
tieeen t, This was all that he thought it necessary to say at
„lemma If the lion. Member chose to make the other matters
igitio speech the subject of a specific motion, of course lie was
aoilitreity so to do; but after, the triumphant answer which had
Won given to him in ate course of last Session by his Gallant
Friend behind him (Sir G. Cockburn), it was not very likely
that he would return to the attack.--(Cheers from the Ministe-
risi side.)
Mr. It. BERNIIL said, that if those cheers were to signalize
Mit-triumph of the Gallant Officer over his Hon. Friend (Mr.

Hume), that opinion was allowable for those who thought with'
the Gallant Officer; but if they went beyond that, and pre-
sumed that the House or the service were satisfied, he could
assure them, from the little experience .-he had had,. that no
speech could be more unsatisfactory to those who were chiefly
interested—ethe Officers of ,the Navy. elle we; aware. that the
present regulations prevented raw boys. front:- the imiiscreia
exercise of power as commanders in a greateedegree thatebefore;
and he believed that, the condition was thousand times better;
than ever it bad hien ; but still there was ,Much to -..correct,
especially in regard to the principle titian which appoint-
ments were at present obtained. He could not, however, alto-
gether agree with his Hon. Friend (Mr..H e) that there was no
cause ot; dread, and no reason for any alteration in our naval
equipments, arising from the unsettled circumstances of the
world. On the contrary, it appeared to him that the political
horizon all round the globe was full of signs and indications of
approaching danger. He was therefore willing to leave the
naval preparations of the country to the discretion of Ministers,
as he had all his life through approached that subject with the
greatest delicacy and caution. • -
Sir GEORGE .COCKIIIMIN would not appeal to either
of the Honourable. Members to know whether the speech
which he had the honour of making to the House in the course
of the last Session was satisfactory or not to the officers in
the service. There were several able and experienced officers
in the House—if they were prepared to say that there was
any thing in the remarks which he then made which was dis-
agreeable to the service generally, let them get up and assert it
manfully. lie himself was intimate with some officers of the
service, and probably had as much experienCe to guide-him, as
to the general opinion of what he then said, ae either of the
Hon. Members. What •he had- then advancede he now re-
peated, that while tliC road of promotion was kept open to merit
and enterprise, however • obscure the station and origin of the
parties, the navy would feel no jealousy whatever at seeing
persons of rank and condition promoted among them. They
were of use wherever they were placed. They were of use to
the navy. They were of great use in that 'House.—(Loud
cheers from the Opposition benches.)—The ships were as capa-
ble, and the officers, he would contend; were more capable, than
at auy former period. There was a mischievous practice of those
good old times to which the Lion, Member alluded, which now
existed iso longer, of boys in their mothers' drawing.rooms being
put on a ship's books', and thus serving their time without ever be-
ing at sea; and it was in the memory of ninny persons. that in the
American war we had post-captains of 17 years of age ; but now
no man could be made post till he was of proper age. Then it
was in the power of an Admiral to make his son or his nephew.
a lieutenant at 16 or 17 years of age, but now there was a point-
ed and difficult examination to go through, and if the candi-
date was not sufficiently skilled in navigation to sail the ship
without the assistance of the master, lie could not be made a
lieutenant. With regard to the masters, of the impediments
to-whose promotion the Hon. Member complained, it was to
be observed, that no officer could become so at once ; a lieu-
tenant could not be made, nor pursers or surgeons attain their
respective ranks, without going through the previous steps
in the royal navy ; but a master, if he had sailed in a mer-
chant ship and was competent, might be - made a master at
Once ; and on that account it was thought but just that to that
rank he should be restricted, unless he distinguished himself
With respect to discipline, the lion. Member should not mis-
lead the House by asserting that boys might flog the men ; that
power was in the hands of the Captain only ; and as it was a
power necessary, the House would see that it could not be
lodged in more proper hands.
Sir F. ORMANNEY defended the vote proposed, and ex-
pressed his intention of voting for it. •
Captain MA BER IN. said, that when we were assured by
his Majesty's speech that our foreign relations were never in a
more pacific state, and when it was apparent that the late Spa-
niel: colonies of South America could not be reconquered by
the mother country without foreign assistance, he could not see
with what face any lion. Gentleman could justify the augmen-
tation proposed on that ground.
An lion. MEMBER under the gallery declared, that South
America was the place which peculiarly required an additional
force.

Mr. HUME said, he had heard nothing to justify the aug-
mentation, if a proper il,lstribution of the existing force were
made. The gallant-officer (Sir George Cockburn) had argued
as if it were the examination of officers which impeded the pro-
motion. Certainly, if th 2 officer were not competent, he ought
not to be promoted, but the Order in Council did not hold that
lar;fua,e • it said, that no master should be eligible to be
'6
examined for promotion. The speech which the gallant offi-
cer delivered let year was certainly calculated to create
dissatisfaction in the breast; of every officer in the navy ; and
from every communication which he (Mr. Hunle) had had
with officers, it appeared to have produced that effect, and
surely nothing else could nave been expected from the gallant
o2icer's declaration that the sons of Noblemen and Gentlemen
were, as of course, to be promoted after serving their ".itne.—
(No, no, from the Ministerial benches.)—That„-at least, was
his understanding of the Gallant Officer's speech. If he (Sir
George Cockburn) had then said nothing but what he had now
said, he (Mr. Hume) would not have found fault with it. With
regard to the proposed augmentation, he took the speech of his
.'Majesty to be true, and that this country never had a better
prosp3ct of the continuance of peace : it WaS impossible, there-
fore, for him (Mr. Hume) to see any reason for an increase of
our naval force.

Sir COCKBURti said there never was a more bold mis-
representation than that which the Hon. Member for Aberdeen
had made .of his (Sir G. Cockburn's) speech of last Session. 1t
was impossible for any one to suppose that he could have said
that the son of every Nobleman and man of fortune should be
mede directly he had served his time ; he was in the recollection
of the House, and on that he would rest, for he should be
ashamed if it were necessary to discuss the point. All his ar-
gument was, that provided proper attention was paid to merit
and services, the navy did not feel jealous that a-proportion of
Noblemen should belong to their profession.
Mr. CANNING said he perfectly remembered the speech
of the Gallant Officer alluded to by the Hon. Member for Aber-
deen, and the proposition contained in it was certainly very
different from that delivered from the opposite side of the House.
Indeed, it was impossible that any man in his senses. in this
free country, could say that rank or birth had any claim to be
promoted as a matter of course. The proposition he made was,
that for the good of the whole profession, it was desirable that
the general respectability of it should be maintained by an inter-
mixture of men of rank and birth with those of merit and ser-
vice; and this intermixture was necessary even for the good of
those whose merits and services were all they had to rely
upon. They might feel disappointment at being passed over, but
they would be convinced that the interest of the whole profes-
sion was best promoted by the mixture of self-created merit
with hereditary claims. It was this species of intermixture
that made all classes cling together. in this free country. It
was desirable to allure men of rank from the ease of their
fire-sides int, a toilsome profession, with something like a
partial consideration, nrovided it did not interfere with the
claims of those who 'had only their merits and services to
depend on for their bread. Any proscription, so far from
ennobling the navy, would degrade it from the rank it
held at present as the profession, not only of men of gal-
lantry and skill, hut of gentlemen. He would take this oppor-
tunity to say, in explanation of a passage of his Majesty's speech
which had been alluded to, that there never was a period in
which this country might with greater certainty expect a conti-
nuance of peace; but it must be clearly seen, that there never
was a period in which there was so much agitation ; and it was
necessary, not only that we should ourselves be satisfied, but
that the conviction should prevail in all parts of the world, that
the country would be ready to mainnain its rights. He might
therefore, without making any disclosure, say that in the three
great stations, the Mediterranean, the West Indies, and new
South America, it was necessary to have an increased force,
as those quarters could not be considered without seeing the
possibility of events arising which might require our interfer-
ence, not only with a strong hand, but with promptitude and
vigour; and, as the Right Hon. Barone: observed, who had
made so able a statement in moving the estimates, it was our
duty to have the British force equal to any, and it might be ne-
cessary in some places even to outnumber all others. If Gen-
tlemen would take the trouble to calculate the numbers neces-
sary to make the addition required, he believed they would be
found rather under than exceeding the necessity ; and they
might found on this vote an additional confidence of peace,
because, if that confidence did not exist, the present vote
would be insufficient. •
Mr. HUME expressed his intention not to divide the Com-
mittee.
The amendment was then put, and negatived without a di-
vision, and the original resolution—
For granting 835,9501. for wages for 29,000 men was
agreed to.
The following Resolutions were then agreed to:-
4:584,350 for victuals, at the rate of it. l Is. a mat: per month.
£282,750 for wear and tear.
£94,009 for ordnance for the sea-service.
Sir O. CLERK now proposed to move the ordinary estimates.
Mr. HUME had not hat: an opportunity of looking to the
estimates, and put it to the Hon. Bart. whether it would be
fair to press them forward now.
Sir G. CLERK consented to postpone them.
The resolutions were then agreed to, and the report ordered
to be brought up on Vt'ednesday next.
On the motion of Mr. Gou ',BURN, the Committee en the
Irish law-courts bill was postponed to Wednesday next.
RESIDENCE OF THE IRISH CLERGY.
Mr. GOUL BURN rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill
to compel, as far as was possible, the residence of the Clergy
of Ireland upon their benefi-tes. He did not think it necessary
upon this occasion to detain the House very long by explain-
ing the particulars of the measure which he proposed. No one

would deny that the residence of the Clergy was in all coun-
tries beneficial to the inhabitants ; it was obvious that the
practice was still more necessary in Ireland, because, the
greater and more difficulties under Which that country la- 1
Loured, the more requisite was it that a vigilant attention should
he paid to the wants of its inhabitants.: There was another point '
ofeview in which the residence of the: Irish Clergy seeni
ed no less important ; not only were they called upon to per-
form the offices of. religion, but in consequence of the absence,
of the gentry, other' duties devolved upon them, and they were
required to minister to other than the spiritual wants of the
people. The object of the Bill whiehle prOposed to introduce
was to effect this. In some cases he was.aware that 'the resi-
dence must be dispensed with. These were either when the
incumbents were compelled to reside on other parts of their be-
nefices, or where the infirmities of nature caused their absence.
He, proposed to limit these cases to such as were strictly un-
avoidable, and to take care that an adequate provision should al-
ways be made for the administration of the incumbent's
duties.. By an adequate provision, he not only meant persons
who should be duly qualified by their moral character and ac-
quirements, to be ministers of religion, but that their stipends
should be suitable to the rank they would hold, and the
duties they would be expected to perform. He would, there-
fore, shortly state to the House, that the form of the Bill
would be in most respects similar to the existing law on the
same subject in England • it would considerably narrow the
grounds upon which a plea of exemption could be allowed,
and provide that the stipends of the curates should be pro-
portioned to the value of the benefices, and to the extent
of the population under their care. The House would, there-
fore, probably excuse him, from stating seriatim the seve-
ral provisions of the Bill, and he thought he should best
consult its convenience by moving for leave to bring in a Bill
to consolidate and amend the laws relating to the residence of
spiritual persons on their benefices; to restrain such persons
from engaging in trade or merchandise ; and to provide for the
stipendiary -curates in Ireland.
Sir J. NEWPORT expressed his readiness to concur in
any measure which should be calculated to carry into effect
the object of the Right Hon. Gentleman, and he thought
the best means of accomplishing that object would be by pre-
venting the beneficed clergy from holding pluralities. There
were instances in which clergymen, already holding five or
six, and even ten benefices, had obtained faculties by which
they were permitted to unite to those benefices three or four
more parishes. By a reference to the episcopal returns, it would
be found among others that Lord Viscount Clifford, in the ,
Deanery of Armagh, held four parishes, in which duty was
performed, and that he was in possession of 383 acres of glebe ;
he held also four other parishes, and in sight of them 297 acres
of glebe; but in these latter parishes no duty was performed.'
There was also another living in another diocese, consisting
of five parishes, in none of which there was a glebe house,
although there were 240 acres of glebe land. In the diocese of '
Cloglier there was enjoyed, in right of a living, 1,300 acres of
glebe land, though no glebe house; and in that of Meath, five
vicarages, containing 2,600 acres, were in the same situation.
The only way, he thought, of procuring the residence of the
clergy would be by doing away with these monstrous plurali-
ties, as he would call them. The law, as it stood upon the
Irish statute-book, prevented the Bishops who were inclined
to do so from dissolving these unions. The Bishop of Cloyne
had publicly expressed his regret that he was prevented from
doing so by the Act of the 21st of Geo. IL' which forbids such
dissolutions, that the value of ecclesiastical dignities might not
be diminished.

Mr. HUME expressed his fear that no good could be done
while the present syStem lasted. Until the overgrown incomes
which were at present enjoyed by individuals who did nothing
should be reduced one-fourth, he must consider such measures
as that now proposed to be little better than patching up, not
remedying, the inconvenience.
Mr. DAWSON deprecated any attempt to interfere with
the church property of Ireland, and bore testimony to the va-
luable services of the clergy of that country.
Colonel TRENCH said a few words in support of the
motion.
Mr.. BUTTERWORTH also supported the motion, and
bore testimony, from his own personal experience, to the ne-
cessity of a great number of clergymen in Ireland.
Mr. GOULBURN replied, and said, that he should for-
bear from entering into the details of- the Bill, upon tile ob-
ject of which he presumed the House was agreed—namely,
that it was highly desirable to make the residence of the clergy
aatslegglerteal substitutea spo
blsel,maunldd wbleiereit
provided,7:is with an adequate in.
not possible, that an
come.—Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
WELSH. JUDGES.
Mr. JONES moved for leave to bring in a Bill to extend
the power of Judges in NVales.—Leave was given, and the Bill
read a first time.
• Sir JOHN NEWPORT gave notice, that he should move
on Thursday next for leave .to bring in a Bill to repeal the
Aet of the 21-st of George H., chap. 8, restraining- the Bi-
shops of Ireland from diminishing the value of ecclesiastical
dignities.
CRUELTY TO-ANIMALS.
Mr. R. MARTIN brought up a Bill to amend an Act of
tile :Id of George IV., to prevent the improper treatment of
cattle.—lt was read a first time, and ordered to be read a se-
cond time on the 2d of March. --
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at a quarter to Nine o'Clcck. •