The Sun.
London, England, 1840-06-13 00:00:00

tented his opinion, for the people of Canada bad the same
access to his delivered opinion as he had. They were
unfit for self-government if it were possible that they could
be persuaded to conceal their opinions and motives by any
stranger going among them, however high his authority.
His respect for them induced him to think that that re-
port contained their true sentiments. He certainly did
not attacia much importance to the opinions of either Lord
Durham or Mr. Thompson ; they were comparative
strangers in the country—they had not sufficient expe-
rience to give weight: to their opinions. C nsidering
the mission they were on in Canada, be looked upon
them in the light of partisans ; but he did attach
the utmost weight to the opinions of Lord Seaton. The
respect he had for his character, his long public services,
the eminent stations he bad filled in both Canadas, induced
him to place confidence in his opinion. The language of
Sir John Colborne said at once that that Noble Lord was
favourable to the principle of the union. All the British
inhabitants of the Lower Province, the majority of those
in the Upper Province, were in favour of the onion, so
that all these facts induced him to support the Bill. The
same observations applied to Sir George Arthur. If these
two eminent men really were against the principle of
union, if there was any concealment of their opinions, the
responsibility of the Government would be great indeed.—
( Cheers.) He did not believe there had been any—he
believed that both were in favour of the Bill, not only in
principle but also in detail. Upon the last ground, the
opinion of the Governors, he gave his unhesitating assent
to the third reading of the Bill. He deeply regretted that
he was not present upon the committal of the Bill, Lnd he
was sorry the Noble Lord had not consented to its recom-

mittal ; but still the same reason that made him assent to the
preamble of the Bill prevented his interfering with the de-
tails. lie trusted, however, the suggestions that had been
thrown out would iaduce the Noble Lord to allow of
some little delay between the third reading and passing

of the Bill. He did not' think that the mercantile into-
rests were sufficiently represented in the Bill ; he thought
it would have been well to have insured for the mercantile
interests some share in the representation. He admitted
there were parts of the Bill that were entitled to great
weight and consideration ; the suggestion of no vote of
public money without the recommendation of the Crown,
was most important; it was also a most important provi-
sion that there should be a permanent Civil List provided
for the expenses of the Government. They ought to (Us-
abuse the Canadians of any supposition that they had a wish
to derive any benefit from them, and that when they in-
sisted upon a Civil List, it was only for the purpose of
insuring good Government. In consideration of that Civil
List arrangement, and a penal grant of 45,000/. and
30,0001., the territorial revenues of the Crown were to be
made over for the use of the province for a certain period.
Now, with respect to that, he thought it was desirable,
when theviwere parting with the territorial revenues of the
Crown, to be certain that they should not come into con-

flict with the House of Assembly. The Noble Lord pro-
posed, the; after the union of the two provinces the duties
and revenues of the province should form a consolidated
fund; that the expenses of collection should form the first
charge, and that the interest of the public debt of the pro-
vince should form the second charge, while the two items
of the Civil List formed subsequent charges.—
( Hear, hear.) Now, if the Legisla ure wished to
prevent the payment of these Civil Lists, they might
take up a suni of money on loan, and supply the revenues
with the payment of the interest of the:debt, to the exclusion
of the Civil List. It appeared to him, therefore, that the
guarantees they had were by no means satisfactory, and he
would suggest that the expenses of the Civil List should
form the second item of charge on the Consolidated Fund.
—( hear.) The Noble Lord proposed to give up to the
Assembly for Colonial purposes the land and territorial re-
venues of the province, but he disapproved of the plan of
giving permanent possession of these revenues to the
Assembly, because at the expiration of the present manage-
ment they could not take possession of them again. He
hoped the Noble Lord would maturely consider the enact-
ment of the measure—that he would take every reasonable
security and precaution that at the termination of the pre-
sent Civil List arrangement they would be as nearly as
possible in their present position. If the Noble Lord was
enabled to fulfil the three objects to which he had alluded,
namely, to give some additional influence to the mercantile
interest—to prevent the interest of any new debt being a
charge on the Consolidated Fund—and to prevent the Go-
vernment, by the alienation of those lands, from drying up
the sources of the present revenue, he thought the measure
ought to receive the concurrence of that House. He felt
that the subject was almost exhausted, and he should not,
therefore, trespass further upon the time of the House. He
thought, however, they bad a right to obtain all the secu-
rity they could in making the new compact, which he
trusted would ultimately tend to the peace, prosperity, and
tranquillity of the Canadas, and their permanent connexion
with the mother country.—( Hear and cheers.)
Sir R. INGLIS said the Right Hen. Baronet had sug-
gested three alternatives, but he had omitted a fourth,
which was to leave Upper Canada in her present position,
and give a new constitution to Lower Canada. He behaved
that British influence, which should be the main considera-
tion with that House, would be materially injured by the
present plan, and he should therefore give the motion his
decided opposition. He thought the measure would
strengthen the Anti-English and the Anti-Protestant party '
in the Colonies, and such a proposition would never receive
any countenance or support from him.
Mr. E
.EL LICE regretted that the Right Hon. Bart.
who had just sat down had not placed that confidence
which he usually reposed in his political leader, and given
his support to the measure. lie (Mr. Ellice) on behalf
of the people of Canada, begged to express to the Right
lion. Baronet the Member for Tarnw ortb, his warmest
thanks for the manly and able manner in which he had
conic forward to share the responsibility of the measure.—
( Hoar. ) He was aware of the value at which the Right
Hon. Baronet's support would be estimated in Canada,
and he therefore felt the more forcibly the advantage of
his support. He confessed he felt considerable apprehen-
sien as to the issue, and be believed it would be difficult
to bring the matter to a satisfactory settlement. They
must, however, look to the recorded opinions of the inha-
bitants of the country for which they were about to legis-
late, and he was satisfied to abandon hie own opinions in
such a case in deference to those expressed by the
inhabitants of the province. On these grounds he had con-
eiderable hopes of its success. He believed the people were
sick of the agitation that wae:going on, and were ready to
accept of any settlement that offered a hope of the resto-
ration of peace and tranquillity, and that the improve-
ments which had been so long retarded, would be carried
into effect. He was confirmed in the opinion by every
thii g he had lately heard on the subject, and he did not
dcsfair of the French population receiving the measure as
one whirs would promote good government and prosperity
throughout the colony. It appeared to him that no insti-
tutions which they could form for the people of Canada,
would give so much satisfaction as those institutions which
they already enjoyed. The object in establishing the new
Council was to place an additional power of taxation with-
in the control of the Government. But the result of the
plan would be, that they would have two con-
flicting authorities in Canada, and that they would
give to others, besides Parliament, a power of taxing
the inhabitants of every district to any extent
they might think proper. He could not conceive
any expedient more mischievous than that, or one more
likely to give rise to dissensions. Ile had never, lie
should say, read a paper so full of vague theories and
speculations as that report of Captain Pringle, the recom.
mendations of which the House was then called on to
adopt. He would readily admit on the other hand that
Mr. Thompson had executed on the whole the difficult
task which had been imposed on hint with the greatest
ability, tact, and expedition. He thought, however, that
that Right Hon. Gentleman might have proceeded with
more caution as far as regarded the report of Captain
Pringle. He might have consulted persons in Canada well
acquainted with the subject, and if the Governor-General
had done so he was persuaded that he would not be left
ignorant of the many erroneous views it contained. It
was proposed that the new Council should have the power of
taxing to an amount which would lead to the confiscation
of property in Canada. The proposal was not that they
should give a certain power to the Legislature, but that
they should give a power to the Governor of con-
stituting what was t called a Municipal Council by
Charter, which would be allowed to tax land
to an enormous extent. He thought that the House should
be very cautious in sanctioning such a plan. He could
conceive nothing so dangerous as the comparison which
the people might make between the two Councils, the one
of which would have the power of taxing to the amount of
ono penny an acre only, while the other would have the
power of taxing to the amount of threepence an acre, He
was net, however, completely opposed to the principle of
introducing new municipal institutions into Canada, but
be thought those institutions should be introduced gra-
dually, and with great caution. So far was he from ap-
prehending that the English Provincial Legislature would
be slow to introduce English laws and usages, that he
thought the danger was that it would he too eager and
precipitate. With respect to the purchase of land, it had
been found by the poorer emigrant- more advantageous to
buy land from the land-jobbers than' from the Government,
for even if the Government gave thelands for nothing, the
trouble
.and expense of obtainingu tdeir title-deeds would
be greater than the amount required
lohY the land-jobbers
as purchase-money—that is, n acre. In an-
swer to the allusion which had been smadean
to his Right
Hon. Friend the Governor of Canada, hemust say that he
thought it was the duty of his Right Hon. Friend, who
proposed this measure to the Government, to stop in the
colony until he saw it carried into execution, It was of
the utmost importance that there should not be frequent
changes in the Governor of the colony.—(Hear, hear.)
A man had to learn his business when he went out there—
( Hear, hear)—and perhaps if his Right Hon. Friend had
been six months longer in Canada, he would not have
drawn up such a Report. However, he (Mr. Ellice) was
resolved to stand by the Bill. If he divided alone, he
wold divide against the amendment. He felt that on this
Canadian question be bad not always done his duty. He
thought that if his advice had been taken for the last five
years, Canada would not be in its present state. He had
sacrificed too much to party and personal feelings;
and even if he were now left alone by his lion, and
Right lion, Friends around him, he would take the sense
of the House.—(Hear, bear.) The lion. Member oppo-
site was apprehensive of religious dissensions terminating
in the ascendancy of one sect. But there certainly was
no ground for that apprehension—certainly there were no
grounds for apprehension of the ascendancy of that sect
of which the Hon. Baronet was most in fezr.—( Hear.)
Indeed there were no men in the world less likely to en-
courage religious animosity for party objects than the
Roman Catholic pastors of Canada.—( Hear.) Their in-
fluence had been exerted to allay dissensions and to pro-
mote peace and order, and lie believed the House and
the country might rely on the continuance of that course
of conduct on their part.—( Hear, hear.) In tak;nc, leave
of this subject, at the same time that he must express his
doubts as to some parts of the measure, he must also avow
his hope that, as a whole, it would lead to the peace and
quiet of Canada, and to the establishment of its permanent
Hear, bear. )
prosperity.—(
Lord STANLEY said it had been his intention to
give a silent vote in favour of the Bill; but he now wished
to make a few t:laserva tion 3 in consequence of what had fallen
kcal his Right Hon. Friend who proposed the amend-

ment. He was not insensible of the hazard and danger
which accompanied any measure that could be taken by
this country in respect to Canada ; but he thought that
the hazard of doing nothing, and of leaving matters to ad-
just themselves, was not to be called hazard, but absolute
ruin.—(Hear.) He not only hoped that this measure
would pass the House, but that his Hon. Friend the Mem-
ber for Caithness would not give the House the trouble of
dividing, or give the people of Canada reason to suppose
that there was a difference of opinion on this subject in
the British House of Commons.—(Hear, hear.) The
Hon. Member for Caithness said that there was good
reason for the separation of the provinces in 1791, and
that those reasons now weighed equally against their re-
onion. It was very difficult to put one's self in the posi-
tion of the persons who adopted that measure in179l ;
but with all respect to the great man of that time, he
thought the measure was one of very doubtful policy.
But even admitting that it was wise then, he could not
agree that the same reasons which had served at that
time would weigh equally against the reunion of the pro-
vinces in their present state of maturity. The separation
was from the first quite sure to lead to animosities between
the two races, and embarrassment to the Governor. In
fact it created the very cella which it was desired to prevent,
and the time had now arrived when it was necessary to retrace
the step.—( Hear.) If a measure had been proposed
which was more nearly balanced in expediency and fitness,
against the measure of the Government, than any which
had been seggested from that (the Opposition) side, he
should feel very reluctant to take it out of the hands of
the Government, who must, as long as they remained a
Government, have the responsibility of carrying it into
effect.—( Hear, hear.) It was a fearful risk for Members
opposed to the Government to take upon themselves the
responsibility of advising the steps that should be taken on
such a question. The fact that the measure was sub-
mitted on the authority and responsibility of the Ministers
of the Crown, would induce him to weigh well his own
preference of any abstract plan, and of a measure
at least equally advantageous to Canada. His Right
Hon. Friend the Member for Oxford University sug-
gested that Upper Canada should retain the Constitution
which it now had, and that the Lower Province should have
anch a Constitution as was adapted to the circumstances of
its population. How did his Right Hon. Friend think
that would tend to protect British interests? Did he
think that he could introduce a measure which would•at
once maintain the authority of the Crown, and remove the
stigma of despotic Government from Lower Canada?—
(Hear, hear.) flow did the Right Hon. Baronet propose
to provide fir tile interests of the British portion
of the population in that province, who, what-
ever might be their internal differences, were
faithfully attached to the connexion with England.—
( Hear, hear.) If he overlooked (as he was not disposed
to do) the interests of the French Canadians, how long did
his Right Hon. Friend think the British inhabitants of
Lower Canada would be content with the state of inferiority
in which such a measure would place them ?—( Hear,
hear.) He would not enter into the details of the measure
of the Government, but he hoped that they would hear
from his Noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies some
satisfactory explanation as to the security which was taken
for her Majesty in respect to the expenses of the adminis-
tration.—(Hear.) The 45th, 30th, and 60th clauses left
the question of the Consolidated Fund in such a state that
the House of Assembly would be able at any future time to
throw the charge of the debt upon that fund.--( Hear.)
He begged to:suggest, therefore, that after the third read-
ing had been agreed to, the passing of the Bill should
be postponed, in order to afford time for a cairn
consideration of this part of the subject. (Hear.)
It was most important that it should be distinctly under-
stood, and i.e trusted the Noble Lord when he rose would
inform the House what means were to be taken for main-
taining a free and constant stream of immigration. He
admitted the great improvement made since he was con.
nected with the Colonial Office in the mode of raising
funds for promoting emigration to the Australian Colonies.
It was proper that it should be understood that by the
present Bill the Government had dispossessed themselves
of all power of dealing with the Crown lands ; he trusted
the Noble Lord would be able to inform the House that
they had merely given up the control of the funds arising
from them, and that the management of those lands was
still wholly to be in the power of the Crown. He would
consider it a most unfortunate thing for the colony were
it otherwise. He perfectly concurred with his Right Hon.
Friend ( Mr. Ellice) in lamenting those clauses appointing
district councils, and thought their functions would have
been better left with the United Legislature—the people of
Canada best knowing their own wants. The Noble Lord
read several extracts from the pamphlets of Lord Chief
Justice Robinson, in order to prove that these local go-
vernments were already established in Upper Canada, and
that for eighteen years that he had been a Member of the
Legislature, no one individual had ever proposed the ex-
tension of the principle; that, on the contrary, when a
small local board, with the powers of taxation, was tried in
a new part of the country, the people almost unanimously
petitioned against it and it was abolished. Yet by this
Bill these institutions were to be forced upon an ap-
parently unwilling people.—( Hear. ') Sir John Colborne
in one of his despatches, gave it as his opinion that the
powers of taxation ought to be retained in the hands of
the Legislature. He was perfectly aware of the waste of
time occasioned by the system pursued in America, but,
in his opinion, the people of Canada were better able to
appreciate their own wants than the Imperial Legislature.
Strongly sensible of the necessity of now legislating, and
as strongly apprehensive of the danger of allowing the
Session to pass over without legislation ; aware also of the
deep responsibility attaching to any one man, or body of
men, rejecting the Bill of the Government, he felt it to
be his duty, notwithstanding his objections to some of the
details, to give the proposition for the third reading of the
Bill his cheerful and cordial assent.
Mr. EL L ICE explained.--The Legislature of the
United Provinces were the best judges of what and where
local governments were necessary.
Lord HO \VICK considered that the explanations of
his Right Hon. Friend were a little at variance with his
former arguments upon the same subject. He had for-
merly argued that such bodies would clash with the .I.c-
-gislature. From that opinion he (Lord Ho wick) entirely
dissented. lie thought the clauses in question were
almost essential to the success of the measure before
them. He was persuaded, unless they created some means
of local government, it would be impossible for the United
Legislature to work well. He was perfectly aware that
there would he found great practical difficulty in carrying
on the government by one single Legislature for such an
extended country.—(Hear, hear, from Mr. Pakington.)
Ile was as well aware of it as the Hon. Member who
cheered, and nothing but the impossibility of the present
state of things continuing to exist,—nothing short of
the present state of Canada would have reconciled him
to the union of the two provinces. It was absolutely
necessary for them to constitute some local bodies
having the powers of taxation for local purposes and im-
provement—he thought they were the more necessary be-
cause of the clause which prevented the Legislature from
granting any money not first recommended by the Go-
vernment. fle highly approved of the clause, but without
the local boards no bridge, no road, no work or improve-
ment of any kind could be undertaken without the local
authorities entering into correspondence with the Govern-
ment, and the consequence might be to create much job-
bing in the Legislature. Far better to follow the example
of the United States, or o;* this country, is the matter of
parish taxation. In the former country there were country
budgets, county budgets, state budgets, and parish budgets,
all independent of each other—the same was necessary in
Canada. It was to be remembered that in Upper Canada
these boards already existed, and the Bill only went to
improve and extend them, and to subject them to the con.
trot of the Government. In Lower Canada nothing of the
kind existed, and it was absolutely essential that they
should be created, so as to work in sympathy with the
United Legislature, and that they should come into opera-
tion immediately, and therefore was the reason that he re-
joiced to see the clauses in the present Bill. The United
Legislature would have matters of the utmost difficulty, and
of the utmost importance under their consideration on their
meeting, and it was the duty of that House to relieve them
as far as possible. He could not agree in all the opinions
in the report of Captain Pringle. He however considered
that the scale of taxation upon wild land was a fair and
proper scale. His Right Hon. Friend objected to that
power being vested in the Colonial Legislature. He knew
it was said that the tax would be laid upon absent proprie-
tors. The Bill only gave the power to those boards to impose
such rates upon wild land as were necessary and reasonable.
It was necessary for the future prosperity of the province
that an increase of hurthen should be thrown on the wild
lands.—( Hear.) There were many other observations of
his Right Hon. Friend on this subject, in which he entirely
concurred. Ho agreed with him that in many cases the
cry against the land jobbers was an idle cry, and that there
must be a mode of investing capital in land, which led to
the advantageous settlement of the province ; but it was
impossible not to be convinced that there were great
abuses in the facility now afforded to persons who had got
possession of large tracts of lend, to have them unimproved
for a number of years. With those views he could not help
expressing his anxiety that the clauses to which attention
had been particularly drawn might not be omitted from
the present Bill. If any amendment of those clauses
could be made he would be happy to concur in that
amendment.

Mr. PAKINGTON felt so deeply the importance of
this subject that be could not refrain from entering his pro-
test against the third reading of a Bill which he believed,
as he declared on a former occasion, to be fraught with
danger and evil. He had heard nothing in the course of
the debate that evening to remove the alarm he then ven-
tured to express, and he still retained the opinion that
there would be great danger in governing so gigantic a
territory with one Legislative Assembly and one Executive
Government. He further believed it would be impossible
to govern that country beneficially by a Legislative Assem-
?lx,rconstituted as that Assembly was to be under the Bill
before
forltle House. Even the Right Hon. Baronet, the
Tamworth had stated, that he doubted whether
the British majority would not be too narrow to continue the
connection with this country, t. ile (Mr. Pakington) very
much doubted wlietber t.h e first Legislative Assembly
would contain a majority
Bill in favour of British connection.
He did not think the would prove so satisfactory as
w it
as expected, or that
meetstid
a otehobsye
Chiefevils
complained of, and in that opinionwgxydas sustained
Justice Robinson, a man whose opinions
were deserving of
proposed the greatest weight, and who had
leeight alteratives,
every one of which he had stated u
would be to
tatfe be had
the union. In conclusioe be begged to state
expressed his sincere conviction, but he hoped the
had expressed would prove to be groundless, and thaartsthhee
Bill would be satisfactory.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought the suceesseofoattfle
measure was not at all improbable, after the dispassionate,
calm, and reasonable mode in which the propositions made
by the Government had been met. With respect to the
general measure and the principle of the union he had
considered most carefully all the various propositions that
bad been made. He would not venture to say he had gone
through the eight alternatives of Chief Justice Robinson,
but he had examined the chief of the propositions before
he considered the measure of the union, with a view of
seeing whether any one of them could be adopted with a
prospect of safety and advantage to this country and
Canada; but the result of that examination was that, on I