The Sun.
London, England, 1841-09-28 00:00:00

MORNlk&lgtifsT

,
• o;
ment, looking at the difficulties in which tile cu-on„,
was. placed—seeing that the last attempt to increase ttll-be
avon had been a complete failure—seeing that
imposition of fresh taxes which was expected to
lrl
dace a sum of not less than 2,500,0001, had net ellocy,
failed in realising that sum, but had actually been ith
cupied with a falling off in taxation es awl:tared !ill' I
the preceding years. He was aware that the Pres,44
Chancellor of the Exchequer might say that lie, ;jot
found the Treasury in an embarrassed .tion anu ,
position, bau
as he was not the author of that embarrassmant, b":
a right to be placed in a
,clear position. The
Hon. Gentleman would have a right to use that argin';`,o,
if he and his party had not coincided with the late t-'OO,
verrinient in all their most expensive undertaking's. .1\
he--(Mr.Williams) had Y. 9 hesitation in saying that; 101, be
of the acts of the late,Government, in dealing wit"fitit
public money, had. been most extravagant and wast'-'
but in every one of those acts, with the .oeru,,i
tion of a single over.the ~party opposite suPr.lt
the late Government, and they had therefore no rAe
to complain of the present calamitous condition et
public funds. He would also remind Hon. Gentlono.
opposite, that when the late .Administration haA,PC, t
posed to get rid of the public difficulties Elf igric
change in our commercial legislation—when. the 7 oatposed to make, a large addition to the revenue,
the same time, they were.about to relieve the
the people—Hon.. Gentlemen opposite interfe spa
prevented those measures of the late Goveremeg
being carried into effect. They were, theref4faitr e
at present by an imperative duty, to endea.ettr
up the present deficiency by retrenchment itp4 •
and not to add to the national difficulties by. tin
tion of fresh taxes. lie considered that it was a)r)i,c,f
grace to the present generation, that, after 25 Ye.''.,il
peace, they should be adding to the. perroanent.,4e,rl
,
the country, while they, , impose() how,
the penalty of their -prodigality.(llear, Bear'
He should therefore, move the following ,tittlePuni, 'll°
the resolution of the Right Hon. Gentleman nt to
after twenty-five years of peace it was inexptre:,. is
add to the funded debt the amount of the detie'enbd the
the revenue to meet the expenses of the present atijot
four preceding years, and that such deficient}
rild
and ought to be made good by the observance et 4
economy and retrenchment in the public setvice. blear
Mr. GREENE objected to the motion of the lio.
tod
ber for Coventry upon a point of form. We undAer:tifict
the Hon. Gentleman, who spoke in a very intaiee
tone, to ground his objection upon the fact of, no
having been given of the motion. •
Mr. WILLIAMS admitted .the validity of the °bice'
tion, and would withdraw is motion. fors C 47
Dr. BOWRING was glad the Hon. Member b'
ventry had called the attention of the House to the.f
ject 'of the great expense incurred in the collection eeds
revenue. The Hon. Gentleman then prockded t 0
That a
Parliamentary Return, from which it appear"' , the
sum of more than 6,000,0001. were annually spent l:10
public offices without the sanction of Parliament' t thel
that sum was placed under the control of Parliainen"nded,
could have no security for its being properly eqe „iso
He hoped the Government would, take care W een.teful
to the utmost, and not indulge in any useless or TV*6
expenditure. ber
Colonel SIBTHORP wished the Hon. alleill„ijane
Bolton had, during the last seven years, been asia,,,-"be Pt
to prevent wasteful expenditure as he appearen '''steftn
present. There was one article in particular of to-
expenditure to which he had repeatedly drawn the, the
tion of the House, and he could not but regret til3, hi§
Hon. Member for • Bolton had not inculcated:l:mot
friends .the necessity of redueing it ; but, perbarc:de
would have been coming too near home. Ever 10.0
present Ministers had been in office it seemed. t° living
if there had been an attempt atssoinethino• like htl pre'
them, but they were too strong to be underatPb'eta,
hensions. He had the most implicit confidence o'4: the
and, therefore, he should support the proposition°s :jot
Chancellor of the Exchequer against any Wu
that might be proposed. king I
Mr. HAWES said that the Ministers, by As the
supply, were asking the highest mark of contidenef,ined
House could repose in them. Now he was not inytbel
to repose any confidence in them, and he believe, r
be
the expectations which they had raised would Bret the
realised. The Right Hon. Baronet at the heti°, I'ool'
Government had stated as a ground for. asking this„,eree
of confidence that he would bring forward nom e'',"te
that he did not believe to be for the public beneler
were not sanctioned by his own conseientous fee
tiro
He (Mr. Hawes) had no hopes of any great me'- leer
either of commercial or of financial reform, frenli the
Majesty's present Ministers. Let the House look a ,es'
various and conflicting opinions which had beetl„,eot
pressed by the different Members of the Goveril'al
on the subject of the Corn-laws—a subject of the
importance—involving the future peace and loud
fare of the country, and one which hat;flear,/
attracted almost undivided public attention.--(i-o,,ia
The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Dore:
eesrtdteciheior
addressing his constituents, had said that he reg.° oole
fixed duty on corn as 'a meaiure to which
commercial world was looking as a relief front „to'
distresses as an absolute impossibility ; while the :ber
ter- General of the Ordnance no inconsiderable ni
of the Government, was all in its favour, and ir
a small fixed duty as a panacea.. The Noble Lor,t,l
he
head of the Woods and Forests said he tbyucil'obile
sliding scale might be altered with advantage 1 ce ho
the Noble Duke who held the Privy Seal had, Lrlohs',''
had taken-office, declared to the farmers of Buck' bat he
shire, that he would abide by the law as it was--,tt-Atel
would maintain the sliding scale in its present -lie
that he would sanction no backsliding, and tha,,t :tato!"
not changed his opinions ; and, in 1839; he 10";•,bis
in his place in the House of Lords, .that :lout'
opinion the present law was the best )hate o..er,
"
be devised.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Thus ther,''or
two more members of the Government differing Pj th
nion on this important point. The .Noble
Member for North Lancashire said that the (i°
was justifiable, not simply because it raised rents, vis
the Noble Lord admitted it did, hut on high gr°liststrj
national policy. The Noble Lord had not, however,oool
is hat those grounds were, and he (Mr. Hawes)
be most glad to hear them debated. But what sar,,V
Noble Secretary for Ireland—did he treat the C°.,10- ;
as involving great questions of national policy? . $ll
quest °t f the
said that undoubtedly it was a landlord's
that he should like to know why the landlords
.°,.e.te§d
country had not as great a right to have their
protected as any one else. So much for the Pe o.hter;
unanimity of the united Cabinet.—(Cheers and atr,tl
The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Ta''' feea
(I,
was tied to no opinion on the suhject. He teo c
one
to himself for being as free as th°, be' sl',
and therefore he bop( d, perhaps, that he nsighA,
to reconcile the disco) dint elements of which 'hat a't,
net was composed.- (He er, hear.) Now, for w itecl
the Right Hon. Barn, et claim time ? No one :1,
place a Bill upon the table of the House on his
subject. The Government which had preced„e",,tico,,,iie
frequently done that which the Right- Hon• ore-t cstyt
was asked to do. When Lord Grey's Governroe:°,
into office, which was during an autumn sitit'n,c'elli„f
Noble Lord, when pressed for information, ha° „see-1,10
assurance that he intended to introduce a en e',
Refor,n which should be full and satisfactorY,for
had also stated that he had not held the seals; 0613 0
hours before he had been pressed to give the:ler g 14.0
the measure he intended to propose. Ano„,t°cntien,lf,
Minister, for whose authority the Right Hon. ue,ery,)
e'ho
had a great respect, had:also pursued a course
ferent from that of the Right Hon. Gentlems'" putd
Ministry of Mr. Fox, in 1783, had been turne" igth
the India Bill. It had been introduced on tr„,erece'
November, had been rejected on the 16th of 1'; 0°,14,
and on the 12th of December Mr. Pict had taUe 11-.11
Parliament re-assembled on the 12th of Januar/25 1301,
and on the 14th of January Mr. Pitt had Initial. Oe„v
on the table. The course taken by the Right:'oll.ei,*-0
tleman on the present occasion was one etn't'e
culated to endanger the peace of the country, aligrottili
the Right Hon. Gentleman asked for delay, °I thenerolgt
that he would bring forward no measure of tie,„'„fittri,":,
of which he was not fully satisfied, he (t.'",bsettio
must say, however painful it was to make let, in h.
Lion, that he (Sir R. Peel) was the last in
t;
House who ought to ask for delay on such gr°,;iitning '1,41
cause if there was an instance of a statesman ci,-;o1311„°;-4,16
ward to propose:measures, to the principles of "'lithe
previously offered the most violent opposition) 001;
Hon. Baronet was that statesman.—(Cheer%ireibt et)
had been engendered of commercial and fiitatjC
which had been blighted by the Right `';. the
opposite. The Right Hon. the Chancellor 0' della'eel
chequer had not thought fit to refer to former , sot
In those debates the Right Hon. Gentleman hui!,o.ll;
that he could easily refute certain statements wllicot,
(Mr. Hawes) had made. 'The Right Hon., 01'
however, had not thought fit to do so, and liaoty;
Hawes) should Le glad to meet the Right Hoo...,loiitr,
man on that ground. The Budget of the late
had been misrepresented. The late Chancellqctiuc,
Exchequer, in bringing it forward, had al'ores
given the House the option of two altern:f ft<
either to increase the revenue by the adoption
sures of commercial reform, or to fall back 14)0% P'g
crease of taxation. The Right Hon. Gentlewilataget
never stated that he expected to realise all the advAd .teig
of his proposals within one year, and ha had state ni I'o
if he did reap all the adrantages he expected f°:)or
01'
scheme he should himself propose fresh taxatni 0-elettle'-oe
issue of Exchequer Bills. The Right lien-
opposite had suceeded in defeating that scherne,
he fell back upon the clumsiest of all ,contrivance 1117,
of raising money by loans ; for, disguise iit;eilt.
would, it was a loan, and the first act of the-' 7, Pi'
Gentleman's Administration was to increase 005„"to:
debt—(Hear, hear)—and it surely was not unr:taa 't",;e6
when such a proposal was made, to ask how I" „roPtillo
posed to pay the interest of the debt thus
atrirg.
to be incurred. If he were simply st,t, inter'
own opinion the Right Hon. Gentlemen oPP°sfitteail by
say that from their station they were betterbut
lief sid
he was to judge of the propriety of dela), wen ;Yttic
authorities to wl.ich the Right Hon. Gent c,,,efote"_4jei
deference, Mr. Deacon Hume had stated ;the duct',
Import. Committee that he considereuttasb to
on food tended to undermine the nianufaet ` tV;ISO
country, and that their continuance would Ij' der
a
the manufacturing prosperity of the countsQ;erc.,l7loo:
gave it as his opinion, that those dude
source,SAoo,
Mining the public revenue. by drying the _ opia:
which it was derived. In 1835, before ,l'
Weavers' Committee, Mr. Gardiner Illosrt te'
if we lost a market one year we . • -tvp!., 00, f
together ; and, -therefore, it was niet 05e,01.#4;
trifle with trade even for a ,year. t-lc; Site
he called upon Right .Hon. Gentlemen 0131) not r•
what they meant to do.--(Cheers.) He diel
specific details, but at least he had a rigidLan-It' Of,
what principle they intended to treat the, reform) $1,1(
what measures of 'commercial or financial
_t 04,011 t
country was to expect, or if it were to exPec,toptt°,ive;
3,4J-tight Hon. Gentleman eonliglaki ply
s.nar.. had increased. He believed the encl ,P4or
Gentleman was mistaken, and-that at -the 'in f
year it would be 'baud that the cousin:oo'

tion to the population had decreased. The Right lion.
Gentleman had taken a few months of the year in which
the consumption was always the largest, and on them he
had based his calculations. If theywere correct the anomaly
would be presented of an increase of consumption in a
necessary of life, taking place because it had become
More costly. The Hand-loom Weavers' Commission
Was composed of gentlemen of the greatest talents anl
connected with various interests. One of the Commis-
sioners was largely connected with the banking and
cronitnercial interests, and another of them had no con-
nection with those interests whatever. Now, what was
their opinion as to the propriety of settling these questions?
Did they think there was no chance of public disquie-
tude ? Quite different. The Hon. Member then read
an extract from the Report to the effect that distress
tended to depreciate the character of the poor, and to
create iss them a desire fin- organic changes. Yet the
Right lion. Baronet proposed to leave the country to the
Operation of such causes for a period of four months.
Having so much of the address as acknowledged the peo-
ple's distresses, he proposed to dissolve Parliament
without propagating one single measure for their relief.
Re (Mr. H.) believed that the people would not be sa-
tisfied with such a state of things. He believed that by
• 'allch a course the 'Hon. Baronet was doing more to en-
- courage Chartism than had been done by any other pub-
lic Inen.-4(Cries of " Oh, oh," from the Ministerial
13atIehCs.) At present there was no intelligible principle as-
' i'serted by the Government as the basis o its policy. As
tar as appeared, their only object had been the
*itttininent of place.—(Hear, hear.) He had
'beard with ' satisfaction a 'statement of the Right
Ironourable Baronet, in reference to the Corn-laws.
.The Hon. Baronet had asked whether it would not be better
:ed nethin(r.should he said with respect to the Corn-
laws, Until the plan had been fully prepared ? From
that they Might fairly infer that the whole question of
.the• Corn-laws would be taken into consideration by the
Gniernnient. He would be glad to know from the Right
Ron. Bart. if such was his meaning.? He confessed,
looking at' the course taken by the Government, it was
one against which he felt bound to enter his strong pro-
test. Ile would content himself with simply saying" No,"
to the motion, becanse he knew what would be the
'vault of a division. He could not allow the oppor-
tuttity to pass without expressing his regret at the in-
difference manifested by the Government to the distress
which existed, and a course of policy which he thought
likely to create general dissatisfaction.
Mr. EWART said, lie held in his hand a document
which he had received that day from a resident
in Manchester, containing an account of the number
of miles entirely at it stand, as well as of those only
partially at work in several of the manufacturing dis-
tricts. It was dated the 24th of September—only three
days since. In Manchester, of mills entirely at a stand
there were 17 ; in Stockport and the neighbourhood,
17 ; in Bolton, 7 ; in Bury and the neighbourhood, 4 ;
in Oldham,.6 ; in Staley-bridge and neighbourhood, 8 ;
in Rochdale, 3 ; and. 11 scattered through the same
district. Of those only partially at work there were
in Manchester, 10 ; in Bury, 4 ; in Stockport, 24 ; in
Bolton, 6 ; and in Wigan, 5. The only demand at
present was from Russia. That demand would soon
Cease, and then they would be depending upon India
and China. The state of our relations with the latter
country forbade any hope from that quarter. In such a
state of things he must say he was astonished at the
'course pursued by the Government. An extension of
• trade was the only remedy for the growing distress.
The Right Hon. Gentleman, (the Chancellor of the Its-
chequer) had justly stated, that the sugar trade
had improved. But was the price of sugar what
it ought to be ?—(Hear, hear.) Certainly not ;
and the expiration of the treaty of Brazil afforded an
excellent opportunity of making an alteration. All the
Committees which had sat upon the commerce of the
country had been in favour of an extension of coin-
anerce, and it could not long be resisted. He regretted
that the Right Hon. Baronet should appear to wait for
circumstances, instead of coming forward and boldly
stating what measures he would propose. It appeared
to him that the Government had in it the elements of
disorganisation, If other Governments tottered to their
fall, this tottered at its formation.
Mr. SCOTT said, that in the borough which he re-
. presented, viz., Walsall, public distress was greatly on
'the increase, and under these circumstances he pro-
tested against the question of the Corn-laws being locked
°lit of the Budget of the Chancellor of the Exchequer .
It was a question of vital importance as affecting the in-
terests of the country. Whether or not the Chancellor
of the Exchequer succeeded in raising a revenue suffi-
cient for the expenditure, still would the Core-laws re-
anain to be considered for the interest of trade and corn-
anerce.—(Hear.) The state of the country, as admitted
on all heads, was deplorable ; hundreds were thrown out
'of employment, and if this state of things should con-
tinue it would be impossible to see the result. He hoped
he was not trespassing too long upon the House, but he
could not but request the Right Hon. Baronet to give his
*vest speedy and earnest consideration to the distresses
Effie country.—(Hear.)
Sir R. PEEL said it was from no disrespect to Hon.
Gentlemen opposite that he adopted the course which he
was rursuing, but he deemed it necessary that her Ma-
jesty s Government should have an opportunity ofconsider-
ang the present condition of affairs, with the aid of that
information derived from the tenure of office, and that
they should be allowed time to submit their measures to
Parliament; and that he should bring forward his mea-
sures at once, or abstain from doing so altogether, and
not give a " glimpse," as the Right Hon. Gentleman op-
posite had required, of his intention. He said the other
might he did not perceive the advantage of adopting
such a course. He thought such a course would be more
likely to mislead and deceive than anything else.—(Hear,
bear.) The Member for Dumfries had imputed to a
Noble Duke force of character, and to him (Sir R. Peel)
a power of mind which he (lid not possess—(Hear)—
and that it was very rare to meet in the same individual
intellectual power and force of character. If it were
true that his panegyric was deserved, and that those two
-qualities were rarely combined in the same individual,
yet it was some consolation to know, that if not com-
bined in the same individual, those attributes were to be
found in the same Administration.—(Cheers.) The late
Chancellor of the Exchequer in his speech seemed to
think that the present Government had charged the late
Administration with laxity of principle and profligate
expense, and he must say it was one main part of Go-
vernment that its public character should depend on the
expenditure of the country—(Hear, hear)--on the in-
fluence they exercise on foreign countries—on the mea-
sures they may feel it their duty to resort to ; and it
Vasquite impossible for any Government to exercise an
'efficient control with a large deficiency of revenue.—
(Hear, hear.) Government was responsible for its
policy, and there could be no doubt that the expenses
Connected with that policy made part of its responsi-
bility; and any opposition which did not resist measures
v'Bich the honour and interests of the country might re-
'Vire to be resisted, would not be doing its duty, though
they might under peculiar circumstances sanction the de-
tails of those measures. It was the duty of the Oppo-
sition to censure the policy that led to the expenditure,
and it would be quite inconsistent not to challenge the
expenditure after the policy had been blamed.—(Hear
hear.) The two things were perfectly reconcilable. The
Ron. Member for Coventry, in comparing the estimates
f 1830 with the estimate of the late Government had
`said that those of the Duke of Wellington's Govern-
Ment, making every deduction for the late Government
nn account of the expenses incurred in China, Canada,
and other places.-were less than those of the late Go-
v'eenment by 3,200,0001.
Mr. WILLIAMS-2,200,00a
Sir R. PEEL—And yet after all the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman was willing to give his support to the late Ad-
3alinistratiim and to withhold it from the present. He
would have no confidence in the present Administration.
Mr. WILLIAMS said he had expressed no opinion
on the subject.
Sir R. PEEL did not care so much for the opinion of
the Hon. Gentleman as for those decisive proofs which
he had given of that opinion.—(Loud cheers.) It seems
be had some conctusive reasons of his own for not de-
pending on his (Sir B. Peel's) Government. He says
that a reduction of 5,000,0001 may be made in
the expenditure of the country. Suppose he
Was right, he ought not to deny to men entrusted with
the functions of Government, an opportunity of consider-
ing how far they could approximate to that reduction.
lie should give an opportunity of considering whether
be was right, because if he were even within 50 per cent.,
it was quite clear the deficiency could be made up with-
out having recourse to fresh taxes,—(Cheers.) He con-
curred with the Chancellor of the Exchequer in thinking
it would be prejudicial to the public if they were made to
believe that such a reduction would be made. He be-
lieved it to be impossible. All he would now promise
vas—what it was right alone that a Minister should pro-
tnise—that there should be a careful review of the esti-
ihates—of what the public interest may require at the
present time ; and that whatever reduction could be
made consistent with the public requirements he was
satisfied would be made. The attempt should be made,
but it would he extravagant to make any promises without
'lowing what those interests may require.—(llear.)
With regard to the revenue collected, the Hon. Gentle-
man alluded to the number of collectors, and the sums
Paid to them ' • but he should recollect that formerly
these,officers had fees which were obliged to be relin-
quished, as being found disagreeable and odious to the
public. Their salaries were increased in consequence,
and he..did not, of course, expect that all he should do
would Meet with the approbation of the Right Hon. Gen-
'enlan ; but he would beg of him to recollect the de-
hption he had given of the state of the country when
. had first come into office. He said that week after
Meek the country was becoming more distressed; that em-
rlinent was becoming more scarce, and debts with more
7,4.l.Metilty recovered ; that a universal stagnation of com-
Ze_reee was taking place, and that the greatest despon-
o Y prevailed when he (Sir R. Peel) had come into
He (Sir 7L. Peel) admitted that in that important
13-7;011
.h of commerce—the cotton manufacture—great de-
tt exist ; but he cautioned Hon. Gentlemen
iciest making" exaggerated statements.—(Hear, hear.)
wy were only calculated to inflame, and not to relieve.
ear, hear.) And it was important for the pence of
„ Bear),) Minot that the truth should be withheld---(Hear,
given to llota that too high a colouring should not be
it.—(Cheers.) This course he meant to pursue
th.,_,lastittite inquiry upon every case of detailed distress
-jetZlit:ll.6,e before the notice of the House through Hon.
Placed 4t:-119-kee, hear.) He would apply the means
purpose of
xnvestigati disPcselby-Governinent for the
quiry.lliee,at:s.itheeharcsses of distress as demanded in-
. dye.scr_iptions it •woußldittbeifimthpeossesibwleeretovamgaukeeunthdea-t
, ilorronly The other night the Hon. Member for Ashton,
' the 16%1 a general account of the distress
11 particular instanceutmost which he (Sir R. Peel) listened
said that• he attention.
. met a vrorkin was reported to have
~eltang for work, havin F man who was obliged to go
Eton. liembeen,,g Dee 11 thrown out of employment.
"4, Lbe parish, Ti:"' RindleY) told him he must gc
e poor man said he had bees there=—