The Sun.
London, England, 1847-11-24 00:00:00

"WEDNES.DA.I PIf_eNING, NO.VEMfIEn
law criminal hiinselsfe--(Hear, hear.) He had hed -
with satisfaction that while the Governmen heard
t were
ready to vinditate the majesty of the law,
by punishing the criminal and suppressing
outrage, they would be no less prepared to resort to
remedial measures. It was not his province to antici-
pate what those remedial measures were, or to speculate
upon the probable reception they will meet with at
the hands of the House ; but, if he mistook net, those
measures would be highly calculated to develop
the almost inexhaustible resources of the sister
kingdom. Those who had travelled through the
country, as he had done, and witnessed her vast re-
sources, must be aware of the existence of a wide field
for the exertions of the Legislature in spurring on the
people to industry and wealth. From experience
he could tell the House that great good might
be accomplished in this respect, and he should
look forward anxiously for the success of those mea-
sures which might be introduced, with the view of
developing the boundless resources, both agricultural
and commercial,
then such measuref o 1re1and,......(11
s, e e •
ear, hear.) Whe-
timilar measures, would
be brought forward
venture positively to or not he could not
mi ht say. He thought he
g be permitted to call upon the House not to
look to these remedial measures for any immediate
success. The blood of the Saxon was not infused
into the veins of the Englishman in a day, nor could
Ireland be regenerated in a day ; but let gene-
ration after generation continue to make untiring
efforts fer her improvement, and the Legisla-
ture every time it met would have cause
to congratulate itself that its exertions had been
gradually productive of improvement in the sister
kingdom. But the Legislature could only assist the
country in improving itself. It could not, by its
own resources, and with its own measures,
reform the condition of Ireland, and he hoped
the people of that unfortunate country would
reedily second the efforts of Parliament. In
the belief that the objects he had dwelt upon, if
carried out, would promote the welfare of Ireland—
that if a large, general, comprehensive, intelligent policy
were adopted, it would alone tend to the regeneration
of that unhappy country ; and believing that such
would be the policy of the House, he begged leave to
second the address.—(llear hear.)
The SPEAKER then read the Address, which was
merely an echo of the Speech.
Mr. H. GRATTAN rose almost at the bar, and
said he deeply regretted that he was compelled on
this occasion to address the House. The Hon. Gen-
tleman, who appeared to labour under a severe cold,
and who, consequently, was not heard distinctly,
proceeded to say he had thought that the crisis which
had occurred in Ireland would have been
avoided. Nothing, he assured the House, but an
imperative sense of public duty actuated him,
and other Members from the sister kingdom
with whom he had hitherto acted, to rise.
He had heard her Majesty's gracious Speech.
Some parts of it met with his entire satis-
faction ; other portions he had heard with great
regret. He was sorry also that many parts of ,the
speech of the Hon. Mover and Seconder did not
call forth in him corresponding sentiments of satis-
faction, because he thought there were other means
of probing the wounds of Ireland than by means of
a speech. Some parts of the speeches, however,
he had received with satisfaction. He wished,
however, that the Honourable Gentlemen had
devised some means by which Ireland might be
extricated from the false position in which she was
placed. He wished the Hon. Seconder could have
propounded some panacea for his unhappy country,
instead of giving it a lecture upon agriculture,
as he did not think that his propositions
would afford salve to the wounds of his
unhappy country. They had full time to discuss the
question, for England was at peace, her character
stood in high estimation, and the new slave treaty,
like the 20,000,000/., had added new laurels to her
crown. France submitted, and America would not
meddle with them. They bad, therefore, plenty
of time for deliberation. The Honourable
Gentleman looked forward to the day when the
union of the people of the two countries would
be stronger than at present. But he did
not think that an union of poverty was the
best, and that Ireland should come every day
here with a petition of distress. Her condition was
deplorable, and the murders they read of were hor-
rifying. The union he wished to see, and it was one
that would promote the happiness of the country,
was an union of concord, and not merely of parchment.
He saw an union of parchment but not of affection.
The amendment he now proposed was one affecting
both Catholics and Protestants. He reprobated as
much as any one the horrible crimes and murders
which had disgraced his country. He thought that
that country ought not to submit to be stigmatised
either as a nation of beggars or marauders. They
were neither one nor the other. The Lord Lieutenant
had lately stated three things—that the Poor-law had
not succeeded; that it had not been fully carried
into effect ; and that he trusted that Parliament
would soon adopt some efficient measures. Nov,
what were those remedial measures ? Was it the
Landlord and Tenant Bill ? Was that a Bill which
could be called an efficient remedial measure ? It
was not; it would not cause a social compact in
Ireland. The landlord and tenant question was not
a social one. There were parties in Ireland who
thought that enough had not been done to mitigate
the distress of their country. They had to
return their thanks to many individuals who had
acted nobly and liberally.—(Hear, hear.) Those
persons had won for themselves the heartfelt thanks
and gratitude of all parties of Ireland. Their names,
though they were not known, would be remembered
with feelings of gratitude.—(Laughter.) Those
whose names were known would receive the warmest
thanks of the people of that countrv.—(Hear, hear.)
With respect to the distress of the country, he, with
other Irish Members, was not of opinion that
sufficient had been done by the Legislature.
The poor-law would be of no service. Nu-
merous boards of guardians had refused to carry
out that law, and had in consequence been dismissed.
The property of Ireland was in a great degree gone.
He knew one nobleman who had an estate of 7,000/.
a year; of this sum 6,0001. went for interest, and all
that he had to live upon was 1,000/. a year, and that
he could not collect.—(Laughter.) This would give
English Members an opinion of what the rental of
Irish property was. There was one parish in Cavan
in which the whole amount of the food
was under seizure for distress. What, then., was
the state of things ? The universal distress existed; the
poor-law could not relieve it. The whole of the food
was under distress, and yet the wretched individuals
still lived. Would not that account in some degree
for those horrible acts of assassination and crime
which had recently taken place ? He held in his hand
copies of fire hundred and fifteen letters from
Roman Catholic clergymen, in answer to letters
sent them by the Relief Committee of this
country, stating ;,the numbers of persons in distress
in each of those parishes, the length of time which
the distress had lasted, and the means which
had been adopted to remove its pressure.
The Hon. Gentleman then read a statement in cor-
roboration of the observations he had made, and
having done so, asked the Members of her Majesty's
Government whether they thought that a poor-law
would do for Ireland? He thought before her Majesty's
advisers had prepared her Majesty's Speech they
would have done well to have consulted with some
Irish Members on the subject. (Hear, bear.) If his
Noble Friend at the head of the Government went on
to govern Ireland with the same materials as he
had done he would find that he was taking a wrong
course. Men in Ireland would not now collect the
poor-rate, although they had been offered 25 per
cent. for doing so. The great cause of
misery in Ireland was its absentee landlords.
What was to be done in this state of things? Why,
let them send back the absentees; let the landed
proprietors discharge their duties, and they would
have very little of these disturbances. Why did not
' Lord Palmerston go back to his estate in Donegal ?
—(Hear, and laughter.) They had heard whispers
towards the close of the last session about
selling up the Irish landlords. Well, he had
no objection to that, nor had he any objection
to sell up the Noble Lord whom he had just named.
Why did not Lord Lansdowne go back to his estates?
He certainly had no fault to find with the Noble Lord's
agent, although he had built two-storied houses for
the cattle, which the cattle could not get up to ; but
let Lord Lansdowne go back to Ireland and do his
duty, and they would hear no more of the-se shocking
complaints. No man more lamented the present
state and condition of Ireland than he did, but
if the English absentee were allowed to con-
tinue receiving rents, and to leave his tenants
to the mercy of the assassin, he saw no
prospect of a change for the better. No one more
despised those who violated the law,lthoseowhhooset /all
rt
morality and good government at defiance,
se who
sought to establish a system which
shouled
did
.man
against man, class against class, than
he
u
it was not by agricultural lecturesthatt
It
'they
could get rid of such villians.I
only by enforcing the absentees to return and wdaos
their duty that they could hope to bring about a
reformation in the present state of Ireland...Meer.)
Ejectment was the chief cause of the outrages in
Ireland. What had the poor man to depend
upon ?
Nothing. He had seen men, women, and children
turned out of their cottages, and left to die in ditches in
a way that was disgraceful to a Christian country.
He cried shame upon such conduct. He trusted the
Noble Lord would carry out the law, and hoped
the Irish Members would aid him ; but there
was one law which they ceuld not carry
out. The law of ejectment directed the
sheriff to put the landlord in possession of his
land; and father, wife, and sickly children were
turned out of their houses. They fired the houses
to_ satisfy their revenge, and the law could not

therefore be carried out. How could they expect
the people who were treated thus to do anything
else than seek to gratify their deadly revenge, He
was not excusing the outrages which had been
perpetrated. He was merely stating the :caul
of them. A landlord had freighted out
ships to carry some of his tenants to an-
other land. They were shipwrecked, awl those who
returned imagined that this had been done purposely.
He pulled down houses, and made the land into
sheep walks. A fortnight after he was shot !
Another, who had made his fortune in the wars,
made a provision in his will that his heir should,
to entitle him to receive his property, clear his
land by ejectment, and that if he did not
do so the property was to go to another, and if he
acted likewise, to a third; and if he refused that it
should go to the public. (Hear, hear.) He
and those who acted with him complained
of the speech which the Noble Lord had
framed, because it did not suggest any remedial
measures. Now, he had stated the measures which
should be devised. Let the Government adopt them.
A deputation of the Catholic clergy had waited
upon the Lord Lieutenant, and they
were told by him that if ever there was a
country deserving relief it was Ireland, just
emerging from fearful calamity, and about to enter
upon a state of calamity which found them unpre-
pared for it. The Honourable Member then
proceeded to quote further extracts from the reply of
the Lord Lieutenant to the addresses of the Catholic
clergy in Ireland. It was the duty of the Government
under this state of circumstances to endeavour
to obtain a settlement of the vexata questio of
landlord and tenant. The English farmers were
calling out for a settlement of that question.
Would the Government still continue to refuse an
adjustment of that question ? The country looked
with deep anxiety for some measure to be
brought forward calculated to settle that question.
The English people were calling out for a tenant-
right Bitl, and would they deny it to Ireland ? Unless
security was given for the outlay on land no tenants
would be got either in England or Ireland to lay out
money in land. Let the Government do justice to
the Irish people and they might depend upon
it they would hear little more of the dreadful mur-
ders that were taking place in Ireland. The
Government ought to give to the people of Ireland
persons who would look into their local affairs.
Let the House remember that they could conciliate
six millions of people by conceding a measure which
could bynopossibilityinjure the country. The Irish party
hitherto had exhibited the greatest forbearance
towards her Majesty's Government, and the least
they could do was to continue them their aid
and assistance. With these sentiments he felt
constrained to move as an amendment, that "Although
the existing poor-laws might be adequate to supply the
wants of some districts in Ireland, it did not meet the
exigencies of others, and it was therefore absolutely
necessary that immediate measures should be adopted
to prevent pestilence and famine amongst a large
number of her Majesty's Irish subjects."
Mr. ROCHE seconded the amendment. He said that,
as regarded the six counties, the agrarian crimes com-
mitted in them were even worse than what was described
by the public press. The amount of poverty and social
disorganization in Ireland was frightful; but he thought
her Majesty's Government and their supporters might
have been prepared to recommend something beyond
the vulgar expedient of the bayonet. He would say
that it was an expedient which was not only vulgar, but
futile; for, upon looking to history, they could not fail
to observe that after centuries of coercion, martial law,
and blood, Ireland was now in a worse state, socially
and physically, than she had been for several hundred
years. Any attempt to save Ireland by a poor-law was
useless. In some places that law might be carried out
fully, but in others it was impossible—in such a place,
for instance, as Skibbereen, where the valuation of the
property under the poor-law amounted to only 96,0001.
a year, or, in other words, to about one penny per
day for each man. He (Mr. Roche) had come in con-
tact with the lower orders in Ireland as much as any
man. As an agriculturist he employed as many or
more than any man in the United Kingdom, and from
his experience he had come to a conclusion far dif-
ferent from that which was usually entertained, that
the Irish people were naturally prone to crime and in-
gratitude. In his own country, where he carried on an
extensive business as an agriculturist in places far
asunder; and as a landlord of 20,000 acres of land, he
did as much as any landlord in England did. He had
promoted an extensive emigration; he had dismissed his
tenantry and punished them in every form when be
thought them worthy it; but he could say with truth,
that since he was 19 years old he bad never been mos.
lested, or threatened, or interfered with—(Hear, hear)—
and this was mainly owing to the fact, that he tried to
act justly and fairly.—(Hear, hear.) He bad no bolt to
his hall door, and any boy of ten years old might push •
it open at night. It had been said that there was some-
thing in Celtic blood which was prone to crime and dis-
order. But when the Irish came to England, or when
they went to America, did they shoot or assassinate ?
Was there ever a chairman or railway director shot ?
What was the reason that in every country in the world
the Irishman was quiet and industrious except in Ire-
land ? Why because in those countries he was treated
with justice. Ho thought resident landlords gene
rally acted well and fairly. But there was al-
ways in Ireland, from the members of the
government down to the pettiest landlord a
system of injustice which was creative of all the crime
and bad conduct in the country. As to the question of
landlord and tenant, no one who had ever written or
spoken on the subject but admitted that the existing
state of things was unsound, and ought not to be con-
tinued. That question was a far more vital one in Ire-
land than in England. In Ireland, if a poor man had
not land, or was not employed on it, ho must die;
whereas, in England, there were manufactures and other
means of employment to which he might turn. The
question of tenant right must be settled, and the tenant
should have a right to the value of the money which he
had laid out in improvement by selling the occupancy.
They (the Irish members) as a body would never con-
sent to a Coercion Bill till the promises which bad been
made to the people of Ireland to inquire into the radical
causes of the evils and misfortunes from which they
suffered were made good, and everything which could
be. done to redress them was effected. With regard
to crime, he (Mr. Roche) thought there was no
reason for going beyond the present law for
its suppression ; but then that law must be
carried out efficiently, which had never been done
by the executive. The whole system for the trial
of criminal offences, both at the assizes and before the
assistant barrister,
stant barrister, was unsound, and the business carried
on in an inefficient manner, With regard to the police,
he thought it a most incompetent body. It was said that
no one assisted in the arrest of criminals. But did the
police go in the pursuit of them ? Take the case of a
man in Tipperary of the name of Harding, who was se-
verely beaten. It was said he had a gun, and should
have gone in pursuit of the persons who maltreated him.
But why should he have taken the whole fight on him-
self, when within a mile or two, there were five or six
lazy policemen polishing their guns, who were not on
the alert. There was also great inefficiency in the man.
ner in which the Executive was conducted in Dublin.
It was composed of men who did not understand the
country, and who were idle and gossipping persons. Not
one of the heads of departments was an Irishman. The
head of the army was an Englishnitan. The head of the
police a Scotehman. It would be very difficult for
the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) to govern Ireland
with advantage to the country and himself, when
he had not the means of knowing the real state
of the country. The Right Hon. Baronet the Member
for Tamworth was still worse off, for he had not in his
Cabinet a single Irishman; and in a Ministry professing
to govern the United Kingdom this omission was a
direct and palpable insult to Ireland. The Noble Lord
had certainly one Irishman in his Cabinet, and the
Lord-Lieutenant was perhaps better than any Irishman.
He (Mr. Roche) had the highest opinion of his abilities
and his desire to serve Ireland. When he learned and
knew the country, he would probably become " Ipsis
Hibernis Hibernior." Still it would be better if there
were men in the Cabinet who understood that country.
If they would settle the relations between landlords and
tenants—if they would not see the poor die—if they
would not stand by their crotchets about the poor law
—it they would take care that those should be fed
who could not feed themselves, they would see Ireland
tranquilised. He protested against a Coereion
Bill, till it was proved that the present law was pro-
perly carried out. What had ever been done by a
Coercion Bill? What would be done by an Arms' Bill,
except to disarm all respectable persons, and place them
at the mercy of every vagabond ? By a Coercion Bill
disaffection was created among well-disposed people. In
1818 an attorney in Tippertry defended 1,441 men
under the Rebellion Act, and out of them only eleven
were convicted ; and afterwards seven of the eleven
were shown to have been unjustly convicted, and were
pardoned. No doubt justice was done on the four who
were convicted. The remainder of the 1,441 were ren-
dered disaffected. The immediate remedies for Ireland
were to feed the starving, to settle the relations between
landlords and tenants, to reorganise the executive, and
to be just and fear not.

Mr. S. ADAIR explained. Ile bad expressly said
that the power of the law was sufficient to suppress
crime, but that it would be better that the bayonet
should be used than that the present misgovernment,
amounting almost to a dissolution of society, which was
going on in those unhappy districts, should not be
checked.
The amendment having been put from the chair,
Mr. H. DRUMMOND (West Surrey) was under-
stood to say that he agreed with the Hon. Gentleman
who had spoken on the subject of tenant right, and that
he was prepared with a Bill upon that question in Eng-
land. It would be presumptuous in him to offer sugges-
tions to her Majesty's Ministers for the better govern-
ment of Ireland, but still he would beg of them to have
the courage to put in force their repeated promises of
impartial justice to Ireland.—(llear, hear.) Whatever
might be the character of the present House of Commons
--NNhatever of the evil surmises with regard to it might
be realised, he was confident that there never was a
House assembled with a more firm determination in the
mind of every ono of its Members to do their duty, to
put an end to the system of being influenced by mere
words and conventionalities, and, to use a homely ex-
pression, to show that the days of "sham" were gone
by. He begged to ask why was the Protestant Church
established in this country (as we understood)
but because it was accordant with the feelings
of the majority of the people : and wherefore
was there a Fresbyteriau Church establishment

24,

1841`.

tress in the western .
I
the terri
instal of
_____., —,a. . _as a fir...
in
I. 0
c/er . soon be furnished b
;Tee-
use svould
in Scotland ? Because there also it 7-
-r,ve, , went
bletoacethoeucnitrscuwlia.trhs served
able to the opinions of the majority. If the G,, - inets,
sent ten bishops, a thousand priests, and 41,000 bet)
they might (-et:Wish an Episcopal Church in Se_oi and, tho.lio
You to them b gY,, acting in obedience y the Roman Cs.
but on what principle o. justice could it be done?
" such Y Chi sir bishops II
'ht vete million after million for Irelafid, but thy'
an enti ~ . • e had so frequ
asig - -
tl
were tall q•t 'ID a( ignorance of I h en y observed
would be inefficacious unless measures en so . use, 11,- 'Lich had b rise matters displa d •
that there should not be this discrepancy betvr.eetr i Eng. jog, t,:t he felt constrain:
den exhibited again thatye nil
land, Scot!`mad) and Ireland, which did not ex::
Roman
any information el'Sriv,. Nd from the to
read to the Houseevteh.
other country in Europe, and which even.
Justiceoman The Hon. Mern,:".er read at sources he had mentioned..
' Saxony did not require. from three • . great length
Catholic royal family ial united , 1 tulles in Slireturns modes
should be lea f
of Ireland
required that the ptlnpleistrict in n °l2l'll°t' b g by the Rev. E. peen
starving, but it shoui,i. )4, by their own labourers -Meal. , nan, and from other y the Rev. Michael Brener
d h•th to
sew ha ter proved rent parts ea 'llAn Catholic 1 a
hear.) It was true that the Pout-- ' ',Gen 4 aid to- that h of Ireland, all eoncurri a er-ymen in
diffe.'
inoperative, but everything which hat. !`"• 4. ten ow how hundreds were dyin 't.
star 19g in the
dstatement:
night showed that the Irish gentlemen did mf's famine had done and gc.
- vatieti
and
-is
was do. ¶ng its work; ease;
th"
sources—cattle, 'as and that th
to work it. .
te. ntit'n of enabled the ' cruise"- ' Pc, IhrY--whi h e re...
Sir G. GREY was anxious to draw the fee e to pas- . e heretofore,
dd .. a ress sorbed,his r see had all
the House to the terms of the amendment to the and that the prospects o' f, been ab-
which had been proposed, and which, limited 0 they vFre more alarming than the seaso taw
Coming winter
were, would probably be lost sight of am 3 dst the Theyi came from men who had an intimn hlc''
had passed_ grievances of Ireland, of which the debate was :.'eltely to one knowledgeof thepeople—rnen who:it:ken""riee With.
be so fertile. The amendment set forth that "a !though lateness,' the death-beds of their fever-sted. till'
it lires in e
the present poor-law might materially allele :ate the ioners. In S:2° midst of this destitution,
mizken parish-
existing distress in some districts in , Ireland tress, what was there in the measures as rty' "d
dill-
yet, as it would be quite inadequate to do so in by the Government to meet it ? These
promized
others, it was absolutely necessary to devise immediate concur that the country was in an i fi • l Itatemenill
n nite y worse con -
measures to ayes t famine and pestilence from a large dition now than it was this time last e th .
portion of her lll4jesty's subjects in that country .” On there was the same deficit in the potato LY•r ar
at
op—that
the part of the Government he regretted that he must. the clothing of the people was worn
out, and that th
offer the most decided opposition to the introd uetion of would have to peas through the winter naked and hungry
such an amendment on the Address in answer to her and labouring underfever. This'
was estate of things which
Majesty's gracious Speech from the Throne. The spirit called for the entire attention of the
Government,
e instead
of this amendment was opposed to the spirit
H o;! the ob- of their devoting the whole stress th ueen's Speech
servations of the on. Gentleman who mowed it, in to their letter on
thequestion ofof h t e restriction of the
which he expressed a desire that a feeling of i :elf-eels- Bank Charter. Ile implored the
ance should be excited among the people, and LI
attention to the state of Ire-
should be led away from that degrading system of de- land. At present he did not
gather from the speech of
pendence on extraneous aid which would be
xie promoted the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir G rey) tat they were to
by the adoption of this amendment. It was cessary, have anything beyond legislation on th
in the great calamity which betel Ireland last :year, for rights of landlord and
tenant. Necessary as such a
the Legislature to interpose with a large and us isparing measure was, it was
insufficient to meet the present con-
hand to save the lives of thou ands. But was tlesre such dition of the country. Let the Gove
a perpetual necessity as to make the recurrence of such consider the state of Ireland, and enact measuresry
measures perpetual ? And because the people were that starving nation, and to restore her t toaraeise
preserved from a calamity which was pressing tb em into prosperity.—(Hear, bear.) If the unfinishedc roads were
the grave last year, and which it was said might again taken up they would give much employment, form
arise three months hence, were they to be taught not to useful works, and avoid the charges for damages done
depend on themselves, but on the exertions of others, to land. Let Government adopt some such measure for
and on grants of money drawn from the taxation of the temporary relief, and they would do considerable good.
country? It had been assumed, both in the House and Let them charge Ireland as they liked afterwards, but
elsewhere, that the poor-law had proved inoperative. It let life be saved for the moment. A statement
from
would, however, be admitted when the information Ministers of the additional relief they were prepared to
which was now in course of preparation was laid before grant would produce vast good in Ireland. The letter
the House, that the poor-law, although in some parts which the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir G. Grey) had read
of the country it did not meet the requirements of was a cruel and heartless production ; and it was not
the aggregate poverty of Ireland, yet that its re- right to bring forward such a letter anonymously. The
tilts were sufficient to gratify the expectations of Times would not dare to write as it does
against the
the Parliament that passed it; and the terms in people of Ireland, if it was not backed by a large party
which it had been spoken of in her Majesty's in England, who gave to that infamous, calumnious,
and
Speech showed that it had materially assisted felon paper the largest share of their support, and thereby
in the alleviation of distress. The sum of 300,0004 identified themselves with its outrageous attacks on the
bad been collected by rates before the introduction of people and the priests of Ireland. Nothing could more
the present poor-law in Ireland, whereas in September directly tend to a separation between the two countries
of the present year, and since the operation of the new than the infamous attacks which perpetually appeared
law, 73,0004 had been collected, and in October in that journal. He implored some of the Ministers to
121,0001., as compared with 26,0001. in the same give a general outline of the measures they were pre-
month last year, and in the present month there was pared to adopt for the relief of Ireland before the meet-.
no doubt that the collection of October would be ing of Parliament in February ; and if even this were
exceeded. Those funds were raised from the land given, the Irish Members would not persist in their
in Ireland for the relief of the poor by the exertions of amendment. He fully concurred in the statement of art parties appointed to carry the law into effect, by some Hon. Member, that the House was bound to teach the
who in that House (as we understood) bad expressed a landlords that they had duties as well as privileges.
wish to carry the law into effect, and on the other hand The Hon. Member's parallel between English and Irish
by paid agents, where those who had been elected for crime was decidedly to the disadvantage of the former,
the purpose had failed to perform their duty. The Hon. in respect of the abominable character of the crimes.
Gentleman who had moved the amendment had alluded On the question of coercion, he must say that great re-
to the boards of guardians which had been dissolved, paration was due to the Right Hon. Baronet opposite
assuming that that had been done because they had failed (Sir R. Peel) from those who had succeeded him. Why
to carry the law into effect. The whole correspondence had they ousted him ? He had just effected a great
on the subject would be laid before the House, and, reform, and done much to redeem the errors of his past
therefore, he (Sir G. Grey) would not enter upon it, conduct towards Ireland ; but the moment he proposed a
but he would say that it would be found that the Poor- Coercion Bill, the present Ministers turned him out, and
law board were justified in the course they had pursued now proposed to do just the same thing.—(Hear, hear.)
in placing the local administration of the law in the His (Mr. O'Connell's) sympathies had long been with
hands of those whose obedience they could compel. He the party of the present Ministers ;ho had thought them
believed that the law was working well in the great in many respects in advance of the English public ; but
majority of the unions. There were 130 unions in Ire- he could not conceive how the Noble Lord at the head
land, and he believed that in only twenty-two aid• of the Government could propose a Coercion Bill, after
would be required in addition to the rates to his past declarations, without first attempting to relieve
meet the exigencies of the people. But did it follow the miseries of Ireland, and to carry out his own promise
that an amendment would be adopted which recom- of patting the axe to the root of the evil. Deeply did
mended the passing of measures to avert famine he deplore the change that had come over the Noble
and pestilence, which, of course, meant grants Lord. Surely there must be something in the nature
of money, without its being known what measures of office which wondrously altered men's sentiments.—
would be brought forward by the Government ? A (Hear.) Having referred to the speech of the Noble
large store of provision from last year was still in the Lord, in 1846, with respect to a Coercion Bill, be •4* hands of the Government, which would be applied to (Mr. O'Connell) now said to him, increase the police
meet any extraneous distress ; and they would meet and the military, and even, if necessary, send down
every case of emergency, if possible, without the neces- special commissions, to try the offenders, and punish
sity of the interference of the House by further grants them severely ; but let him not infringe upon the con-
of money, although on this point they would be able to stitution. What was there in the present state of
speak more confidently hereafter. He trusted that by things, even in the accounts of this day, to justify such
the exertions of the landed proprietors and the people infringement ? Did not the Times of this day state that
themselves, poverty would be relieved and industry re- the people had turned out to assist the police in captut.'
vived, and that reliance would not be placed on the ing the murderers of Mr. Hill ? At the very moment
Government, but on their own efforts. He would read the people were showing such anxiety to aid the course
an extract from a letter of a gentleman employed by of justice, was it right to bring down upon them these
the Poor-law Commissioners at Bantry, one of the extraordinary powers ? Another instance of the same
unions in which the board of guardians was dissolved. kind was recorded in the county of Limerick, one of
It was to the following effect :—" He hoped that no the most disturbed counties. Why not foster such a
public works, as a means of relief, would be sanctioned, spirit, rather than repress it by these arbitrary pro-
He believed that, with the assistance of the ceedings ?—(Hear.) It was said, he believed falsely,
Britifh Association, they would get on well, that landlords who were most humane and indulgent to
anti that the landlords must give employment. their tenantry, had been sacrificed. Look at his Hon.
They never were in a better position to improve Friend the Member for Cork (Mr. Roche) and Isis rela-
their property, if they knew how to take advantage of tive, who were resident in Tipperary. Were they afraid
it. They had seen enough of temporary advances to of being shot at ? Were they obliged to keep at home?
know that the parties who received them were worse He rejoiced to be able to adduce the Hon. Member as a
off afterwards. The Government could give assist- proof of the good feeling of the tenantry in Tipperary,
ance after local efforts had been made, but not else." which would be general, if all landlords were like the
Now, the spirit of the amendment which had been pro- gentlemen he had named. Mr. Philip Bianconi was
posed would lead the people to suppose that the Govern- another instance.
went would do everything by grants from tho Treasury Mr. B. OSBORNE—He is not resident.
—a spirit which they could not do too much to discou- Mr, O'CONNELL said ho was. He regretted that
rage.—(licar, hear.) Having thus disposed of the his Hon. Friend who bad interrupted him, and who had
amendment, he (Sir G. Grey) must say a few words recently gone into Ireland, had got amongst a set of
upon a subject touched upon by the Hon. Member for bad advisers; and he feard he would become a specimen
Cork (Mr. Roche)—namely, the state of crime in Ire- of regular Tipperary landlordism. Let him beware,
land. He (Sir G. Grey) would not now enter upon these for there was something not right about him. He
painful details, which it would be his duty to lay before might also mention as good landlords in the same
the House on an early day, upon bringing forward the county, Lord Lismore and Mr. Shadwell.— (Hear.)
Bill (of which he had to-night given notice), for the pre- Doubtless there were others ;he only wished their
vention of crime in certain parts of that country, He number was greater.
In conclusion, he must charge
must, however, say that he could corroborate the state Ministers with having all owed eighteen months to pass
ment of the Hon. Member for Cork, that the allegations without doing anything for the benefit of Ireland. Why
contained in the public press in respect to crime did not had they put the Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tam-
apply to all parts of Ireland. He joined with the Hon. worth, out of , when they had proposed nothing
Member in his denial of the assertion that all the Irish, to relieve Ireland, and now did the same as he had
from the north to the south and from the east to the done, by bringingforward a Coercion Bill ? Let the
west, were assassins.—(Hear, hear.) On the contrary, House, especially the d
strong declarations the present new Members, refer to " Han-.
her Majesty's Government believed that there weremany sard?'' and see the
s had made, only eighteen months ago, against
parts of Ireland in which life and property were both as Ministers
Ireland and let the new ' Members beware of
safe and secure as in any other portion of the dominions coercing . ;
of the Crown.—(Hear.) With regard to those remedial giving . . their support to such a proposal. He must ax-
measures which the Hem Member for Meath (edie press his conviction that the people of Ireland and their
Grattan) and the Hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Roche) sentiments had no weight here ; there was no know-
seemed to think ought to accompany any measure of ledge of, or sympathy with, their distresses. On the
coercion, he must observe that neither one nor the other question of coercion, he should think he was acting
of thoSe Hon. Members had done strict justice to the with the grossest inconsistency, if, after opposing the
Speech from the Throne; for the very passage following measure brought forward by Sir R. Peel, he should now
that paragraph to which the amendment has been moved support a similar proposition because .made by the pre.
states that "her Majesty views with the deepest anxiety sent Ministers.
and interest the present condition of Ireland, and she Sir B. HALL had hoped, that after the speech of the
recommends to the consideration of Parliament mea- Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary for the Home De-
sures which, with due regard to the rights of property, partment, the amendment of the Hon. and Learned
may advance the social condition of the people, and tend Member for Meath would have been withdrawn. He
to the permanent improvement of that part of the believed that it would have been withdrawn but for the
United Kingdom."—(Hear' hear.) One of those mea- speech of the Hon. and Learned Member who had just
sures, he could assure both his Hon. Friends who had sat down. He (Sir B. Hall) would ask that Hon. and
respectively moved and seconded the amendment, was Learned Member what he had done for the people of
that which had relation to the question of the individual Ireland ?—(Hear, hear.) The English people had sent
rights of landlord and tenant—a subject which had over eight or ten millions sterling to recover their dis-
deeply engaged the attention of his Noble Friend the tress, and that immense sum had been promptly and
Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland and of the Government, and cheerfully granted. The Hon. and Learned Member
it was intended to submit a measure on that subjebt to for Kilkenny held a distinguished position among his
Parliament on an early day. At the same time, looking countrymen, and, instead of doing anything practical to
at the Bill introduced last session by the Hon. Member relieve their distress, he had sanctioned the use of lan-
for Rochdale (Mr. S. Crawford) he (Sir G. Grey) could gunge towards them of the most inflammatory nature.—
not but remark that the question was not free from dif- (Hear, hear.) Language inciting to murder and assassi-
ficulty, and he could not think that the question of per- nation had been used in his presence, and that, too, by
manency of tenure, which by the Bill alluded to would high dignitaries in his own church, and he had not, by
be given to a mere tenant for life, could be word or gesture, reproved that language.—(Hear, hear.)
disposed of in a short Bill, as seemed to be supposed. The Hon. and Learned Member had said that before
To the subject, however, he repeated, the most anxious coercion Bills should pass he would fall a victim on the
and careful attention' had been directed, as the pare- floor of the Houe7e of Commons. No wonder, then, if the
graph he had quoted from the Speech from the Throne Hon. and Learned Member should oppose such Elea-
indicated.—(llear, hear.) He did not wish now to sures, if it were only to retard his own immolation.
[ anticipate the discussion of these measures in detail; Let the House only see into what state Ireland had
but thus much he had felt himself bound, in justice to been brought by the agitation going on in that country.
the Government and himself, to state, after the obser- One Repeal Association was bad enough, but now there
vations which had fallen from the mover and seconder was no less than four. He had no hesitation ino saying
of the amendment. He also must request Hon. Members that the scheme of repeal carried on by
anything,
. them
to suspend the expression of any opinion upon the work- from year to year, without ever coming
b tbawthari ever been
ing of the Irish Poor-law Act until they were in the one of the greatest political humbugs that
verily
believed, that
possession of that accurate information on the subject perpetrated.—(Hear, hear.) H
motion placed on the paper by the
which would very shortly be furnished to the House. had it not been forr the
the question of repeal
Nottingham, .
Having done this, he must also express a hope that his Hon. Member for
allowed to pass over this year as it had
Hon. Friends the Members for Meath and Cork would would have been
)
adopt the advice tendered to them by the Hon. Member in formered sati)ar
y! s But for that motion, he
had made up his mind to put a question
(Hear, hear.
for West Surrey (Mr. Drummond), and not press their (
Si•r B.
ch should put repeal at once upon its merits before
amendment, but concur in carrying up to the foot of the w h
Throne a unanimous address in answer to the Speech the l House of Commons.—(Hear, hear.) He believed
that with the lion. and Learned Member for Kilkenny
with which the new Parliament had been opened.
In
it was a mere facia de parley. He remembered to have--
conclusion, he could not but add a hope that on
men-enter-
heard a m an—whom he admitted to have been
one of the
ing upon the business of a new Parliament every
condition of greatest men of his day—(Hear, hear)--he sure intended for the improvement of the
atef Hon. and Learned Member for e meant the
• d with the absence of those Cork—state that he
Ireland would be receive
would lay his head
opponents,
upon the block if r
motives which frequently influenced political
ea candid carried within six months from repeal were not
and that the prevailing feeling would be to guy
prosperity lion. Still the same the date of his Obtlervae
place the
attention to measures intended tohumbug • assertions were made still the
d on the most permanent and same carried On in the f '
and happiness of Ireland
ace of the people of
Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) T
enduring basis.—(Cheers.)
.1,
he Honourable Baronet
Mr. J. O'CONNELL said he could not hold out to enumerated the four political associations• •
now existing
the Right Hon. Baronet, the Rome Secretary, any hope in Ireland, and quoted speechof
that the Address in answer to the Speech from the Learned Member for li. es
the
Hon.
all
ilkenn
Throne would pass with unanimity; for, even if the or three of those sy, made in each. In two
amendment now moved was got rid of as suggested, a had vowed t • eeches pthe lion. and Learned Member
o die on the
second amendment would be moved in relation to the before he pe • floor of the House of Commons
promised Coercion Bill. That was a proposition which All he permitted a Coercion Bill to pass for Ireland.
would necessarily awaken an angry discussion. Her (Sir B. Hall) could say was, that if such a catas-
Majesty's Government were much mistaken if trophe should happen, his Hon. Friend the Member for
they Finsbury thought the remnant of provisions in the Gover y would be in readiness to hold the necessary
defies would suffice to inset the distress • nment inquiry.---(Hear, and laughter.) As to coercive e ress which
mea-
continue in some districts where the must sures, although he had voted against them in 1832, he
as to render it impossible to collect the Poverty
was such should now, looking at the murders committed in Ire-
what hope could be entertained that oor-rates. Then land every day, be prepared to strengthen the bands of
meet and combat with the miser ds the poor-law could Government in every possible way.— (Hear, hear.) He
le
ease which prevailed? The last' e taution, and dis- believed that there was a class of men in Ireland—he
dd—o a
Commissioners showed that 3,000 0 return of the Relief meant the Roman Catholic priests—who might msoiginclined.
receiving rations relief, and th , 00 of.population were great deal to prevent violence if they ' I!er
against the
of these rations ld at the minimum expense He did not mean to insinuate anything
wou amount to knew that among them
remind the Government 7,000,0004 Let him priesthood as a body, because be
but ho saw a sad
of the state exemplary men,
of alarm which ex- were a great man
isted in 1834 in England,when condUct of the priests of 1847 and
poor-rate to the amount it was' shown that a contrast between the
pursued by the priests of 1762. In
of 7,000 000/ would be that which had been
, • necessary for
to meet the distress which solemn fast was ordered the success of
then prevailed in this portion that year a
the priests published an address
of the realm. Ireland his Majesty's arms, and. Was a poorer country, and what in the most emphatic terms, to
must be the feel' exhorting the people,
ings awakened by the declaration that
the preservation of law and order. Would fo God they
7,000,000/. was required in the chof poor-rate to
. ape a
.h
d could hear of such exhortations now.—(Hear, hear.)
keep her peo le from p starvation? He held in his an
most frightful details of the extent of the They had heard lately of one of a very different ohs-
(Waging dis- .