The Sun.
London, England, 1847-07-20 00:00:00

„las augmentation of the sure of souls, as far as
Zese might be seen necessary, due msideration
'Zing always had to the wants and wishes of
the different districts. How, then, were the expressions
of Hon. Gentlemen justified? Here it appeared that the
Government, by diminishing the superfluous dignitiet •
of the Church, and by abrogating the patronage of the
Crown and of the bishops, had a sum of 300,000/. per
devote to the extension of the English bishoprics.
„”
AU did not wish to argue again the whole merits of the
Iltiestions it was sufficient for him to say that the pre-
sent was to be viewed in the light of one of a series of
measures, and looking to the reforms which had been
already obtained by the abolition of pluralities, the
More effectual provision for the cure of souls, and many
other reforms, he really thought that if a case could
he made out for the establishment of a new bishopric, it
Would not be right to prevent the Church from the exercise
of that power which belonged to all dissentients, whether
shill, ecclesititical, or political, viz., an extension of the
Means of government of such bodies. He thought that
it was an essential part of the plan which he had hinted
at that there should be an increase of the number of
bishops beyond that of Manchester. He was fully per-
suaded of the correctness of that opinion, and
he did not purpose to take one single farthing
from the taxation of the country, or to in
crease the power of the Church by giving those new
bishops seats in the other House of Parliament. In that
°Pilli°fl he was fortified by the opinion of the Right Rev.
13relatese who formed part of the Commission. The
'Whole bench of bishops were quite satisfied with the
arrangements, that there should be a creation of new hops who should not have seats in the Upper House.
lie trusted, therefore, that the House would not refuse
to
hgo into Committee this evening on the 8.11, especially
Ile e had given up the sitting of the House on Saturday
on the express condition that the House should go into
Committee today for the purpose of hearing the objec-
tions of the Hon. Member for Manchester, and those
0f
_the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Dorchester,
olsposition to the details of the B:11.
Sir W. MOLES WORTH thought that the whole of
the One
argument of the Noble Lord might be summed up in
one sentence, viz., " that we have hitherto done some
Mount of good, and it is right, therefore, that we should
now do a little evil." He did not think that such
Was
sure an argument fitted to be used in favour of a
tues for the creation of a new bishop. He thought
that it ought to be clearly established to the satisfaction
ete House that there was a necessity for a new bishop
nua re the Bill was allowed to pass into law. So far from
neeh a case having been made out, there had been
,fltY speakers on his side of the House upon the Bill,
V.!•
of that number seventeen had spoken against the
No pressing emergency had been brought forward
Y. the Noble Lord, or by any other speaker, tor pushing
aole measure forward with so much haste. The Noble Lord
said that the commission had recommended the creation
sereasileefvtbilishs°Ptof Manchester upon the union of the
thoanda g hott that there nd
Bangor ; he (Sir W. Molesworth)
"a
forward a measure of this nature,
only a Y when the Noble Lord had said that this was
portion
• the sub- rl of a great and comprehensive measure on
Would jeet` He thought
that the better course
beWhell to a
postpone the Bill till next session,
for full opportunity would be given
intithee eoneideration and discussion of the whole bear-
-4;e' he question; and he for one would promise!
best"„Bll,,efl a measure was brought forward, to give it his
most attentive consideration.
vte
TRELAWNY said that he would divide upon
,r); st
factious
of the Bill; but he would not be a party to
ns opposition.
MESSAGES FROM THE LORDS.
Mess
!•-. de_ engers from the Lords appeared at the bar, and
Tended a conference with the Commons.
the4derd 'I, • RUSSELL with several other Members
nod,l retired,and
ioti after the lapse of ten minutes returned
held throated to the House, that at the conference just
Lords, .eY had agreed to receive me-sages from the
twee sin
at ilttlre• by one Master in Chancery instead of
Log
_ present
a J
LTut' „
kr. coSELL explained.
just and oh• k'ETT continued to think the measure un
"
% !ermined 4;l' °liable in every resin ct, and he was de-
tlen pro resist it in all its stages. (The Hon. Gen ma-
the howl-cedede to read several letters expressive of
%tor, .ltY of the writers to the creation of any new
kirrlsse which excited much laughter.)
the rules thought it was not in accoriance with
read es of the House that any Gentleman should
fouse.su
' doecument without the permission of the
riu,,
Metal) "1E said that this was done every day by
here ; heL. the Government as well as by other Mein-
The st?&louse,
est or orde'ErAlEß did not think the Hon. Member was
kr. T.
•
Ileum '''uNCOMBE hoped the Hon. Gentleman the
his er for Winchester would not proceed further with
gent,bouniTehnd as he could not give it his support, being
tarn arrangement he had made with the Go-
lion rat eet
„ on Friday last, not to give any further opposi-
krOTlue House going into Committee on this Bill.
loan r.s.' °BI3ORNE concurred with the Hon. Gentle-
piece 'os'e Member for Finsbury, that after what took
Spent ~IflYridaY night, he could not support the amend-
and ale Hon. Gentleman the Member for Winchester,
krebilePed the Hon. Member would withdraw it.
from tie said, that after what had fallen
not e tion• Member who had just Token, he would
• Pea?" his amendment to a division.
The atnendment was then by leave withdrawn.
m"rt:ltiouse then went into Committee on the Bill.
teent PHILIPS said a deputation of his consti-
bead had With him waited upon the Noble Lord at the
to
pa e Government, urging him not to allow this Bill
Of sea of t s
ill its present form, and he took that opportunity
the..questing of her Majesty's Government, that when
Joel ealfle to legislate again upon this sub-
lesi'e their views and statements should not be
was sight
of. There could be no doubt that Manchester
not - great! '
think Y 111 want of spiritual education ; • but he did
clew,this Bill was calculated to supply the deft-
to e.must therefore move a verbal amendment
ruaa,!.preamble of the Bill, to prevent certain parochial
of tssin Manchester being appropriated to the purposes,
Bill.
Air. Ph.
had be OLMONDEL EY regretted that this measure
he hoped
but ell hitherto discussed in so intemperate a tone ;
4 the Bill, now, that they had
.got into Committee
with Would the merits and details of the measure
„ be discussed with more temper and decorum, and
less reference to party feeling or sectarian differ-
supported of .
pinion. For his own part he most strongly
withinthis measure. At present Manchester was
din; the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Chester, but that
of his prelate had so much to do in other parts
1415 diocese that he could not devote that attention to
u_anchester which its wants and importance demanded.
trcu- e. under existing circumstances, considering the
ity of the funds attached to a new diocese, he
b:ftght it would be much better both for the bishop
f_l_atself as well as the diocese, that the bishop should not
4rpeloh? Present be put to the expense of sustaining the
T Lord J•
otgnity of a seat in the House of Lords.
n'Ek'ra J. RUSSELL wished to say a few words in
ewer to what was stated by his friend the Hon. Mem-
Which h
oer for Manchester. He did not think that the reasons
gave were such as to make it at all necessary
Chapter
introduce a clause in this Bill as to the Dean add
vhapter of Manchester. The question in regard to the
parochial duties connected with the Dean and Chapter
did not depend upon this Bill; but at the same time he
must say that he thought, after hearing the statements sf
the gentlemen who came as a deputation, that the revenue
of the Dean and Chapter was derived almost entirely
from estates in Manchester and its neighbourhood, that
Provision ought to be made in some future Bill for better
apiritual;care, by applying part of these funds for that
POrposie. In what manner that was to be done, and what
Was the exact state of the law, he was unable to say;
but he did think there was sufficient cause for calling the
attention of Parliament, at a future time, to the applica-
tion of these funds.
Mr. HUME did not believe that the necessities or
wants of Manchester required the establishment of a
new bishopric. Manchester was within the diocese of
the Bishop of Chester, and all the services the people
required of a bishop could be easily performed by that
Right Rev. Prelate, if the number of poor district work-
mg clergy were augmented.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. 11. WALKER said it was his intention to give
his consent to the passing of the Bill.
Mr. HORSMAN supported the amendment. He
did not object to the creation of a Bishop of Manchester,
but as it had already been settled that a bishopric
of Manchester should
not be created till the union of the
Sees of Bangor and St. Asaph took place, he did net
till that event
think it right to proceed with this Bill on-
Burred.—(Hear, hear.)
Me .SEYMER said he
had no doubt that the work-
ing clergy were of great service to the Church, but it
Was necessary that some supervision should be placed
over so larg
e a body of them as were engaged in admi-
nistering spiritual relief in the large and important dis-
trict of Manchester.—(Hear,hear.)
After a few words from Mr. AGLIONBY,
Col. PENNANT said he represented a portion of this
new diocese of Manchester, and he e
cterns of the district which he represented were strongly
• in favour of this measure.—(Hear, hear.)
~..After a few words from Mr. Hume, Mr. Horsma n,
ear. Cholmondeley, Mr. Collett, and Mr. M. Philips,
Sir W. MOLESWORTH thought that there
an io.
erewere
two questions to be considered, first, whether
Crease of bishops were really necessary; and secondly,
Whether it would or would not be more advisable
ins• tead of creating those bishops, an increase were to
t? Made in the amount of the incomes of the working
o
clergy of the country. He did not think that a case
new
teeessity had been made for the creation of a ne
wiall°l3- It had been stated by the Noble Lord that the
.11eeessity had been established eleven years since. h
flied that such was the ease; it had been proved y
r eotnnaission, which then inquired into the subject,
—natin some cases there was not enough for the bishops
do, and in other cases there was too much,
sod it was resolved to unite the sees of St.
ts.,,sPh and Bangor, to divide the see of Chester,
create a new Bishop of Manchester.
Ent he would ask the Noble Lord why in the present
114.stsilee he had not, instead of proposing to make a new
%--11°P, brought in a measure to add a portion of the
tis,te °I Chester, which was considered as too large, to
bee see of St. Asaph ? The Government would thus
j4--"e avoided inflicting on the people of England an in-
P"101 as was proposed by the present Bill. The
oble Lord had gone--
further, and said that it was his
istentt
• the „ to propose to create a Bishop of Bodmin for
otese-t°lllltY of Cornwall. But he having sat for the
havY of Cornwall in one Parliament might claim to
he fesl.ome knowledge of the feelings of that county, and
r
for quite convinced if there were any Hon. Membe
• ores,
rise up al i
l n the House that he would nut dare to
in his place and thank the Governm?t
went of a Bishop of Colima My, will"