The Sun.
London, England, 1823-03-12 00:00:00

from the year 1793 to 1819, during their loans, the House
was unfortunately pleased to sanction a different course,
which was, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should
burrow several millione—sometimes twelve or fifteen millions
at once—from the loan conttactoeseand give them, in lieu of the
money so borrowed, an article:caeled 3 pee cents., and detit it
was wise that the same Mintstereheuld stead Cormoiesionereleto
the stock market with this identical money, and vest it again' in
the 3 per cents. ; and:gels *.ea called an advantageous mode of
dealing for the public interest. Nothing could be a greeterlh.
surdity than this mode of doing business ; and yet, though
often exposed, it was not abandoned till the year 1819. Were
this sham system innoxious, he should net quarrel with it ; but
the fact was, that it was capable of demonstration, it had cost
the country during the 'foul-last loans of the late war, a sum
equal to a perpetual annuity of 268,000/. .On one loan alone It
bad, cold 3,600,000/. of 3.ntir cents. Nothing could more strongly
Plustmte this mode-Of doing linsineiti than the effect of itattban.
rPatient 1810. On the,4th or loth June in that year it was
umoured in the usual quarters, that a loan of 24;000,0001.
Would be wanted; but when the contractors repaired to a pre-
liminary meeting in. Downing.etreet, 'they were, to their
aatonislunent and sorrow, .informed ley the Chancellor of the
Exchequer that he only wanted 12,000,0001. and that the Go-
vernment had at last determined to act upOn Mr. Fox's clause.
The price of the 3 per cents. the moment before the contractors
wentup to Downing.sereet ;wits tie; but the moment they re-
turned to the city the price rose, and within two days went
from 65 to 70 and 71, and the contract for the 12,890,000!.
loon (at course regulated by. the price of stocks of the day) was
eflected et an advantage of at least 3,000,000/. to the public.
liad the Minister Acted upon eir. Fox's claim of 1791 down.
wardeethe.cOuntry would have saved 50,000,0001. of money. He
hoped and trusted that, with the experience of the past before
their eyes, they would never recur to so ruinous and Improper a
system. ,Having said this much of the sham SinkitigFund, he
would lily a few worth' of the real Sinking Fond, that is, of a
surplus of income over and above the e.xpenditure. For the'
maintenance of this Sinking Fund, lie was a steady advocate.
It had been said by his lion. Friend (Mr. Jimmie) on a former
night, as an objection to the existence of a Sinking Fund, that
e rapacious: Minister might at any time sweep it away. Ile
was not convinced that such could be done, for he thought no
however rapacious, could do so without the sanction
of Parliament and of the country ; but suppose it was taken, it
could only he applied to some purpose winch was deeMed ad-
vantageous to the country ; and was not that itself a sufficient
reason fur supporting a Sinking Fund ? In 1013, lie had sup.
ported Mr. Vansittart's plan, which was the greatest invasion
that had ever been made upon Sinking Fund ; the country was
then exhausted by taxation, and required beathing timeeand
by. the plan ofllll3, it received it fur 3or 4 years. Was not
that another proof of the value of a real Sinking Fund ? Many
plans had been devised to pay off by one great effort the nation.
al debt, and the project (he hoped his lion. Friend Mr. Ricardo
would excuse the word) of accomplishing that great payment
by a general contribution from all the property of the country,
WAS the wildest of them till. flow wits it possible toarrangesuch
e plan with equity and impartiality ? 'How was the contribution
from each species of property, lands, houses, goods, kc., to be
arranged? But that was not the whole difficulty: after the
amount of each was ascertained, how would it be practicable
to get each man's share, so as to liquidate in the mass the
trifling stun of 000,000,000/. ? The Ilan. Member then bore
testimony to the merits of his Hon. Friend's (Mr. Hume's)
finance resolutions, which, he said, contained more . valuable
information than 'any other paper he hied seen upon the same
object, although he differed from some of his Honourable
Friend's inferences. His lionotnable Friend had stated truly,
that the debt at the present time had greatly exceeded its
amount when the Sinking Fund was established in 1793, and
from thence, be says, it is demonstrable that the Sinking
Fund system is founded in fallacy, and maintained by delusion.
•He (Mr. t lretifelf) denied this deduction--he denied that the
increase of the debt woe a proof that the principle of the Sink.
ing Fund was founded in fallacy, and maintained by delusien.
The lion. Member, after showing that the case of a private
gentleman, who should be induced to put by a portion of his
income with a view to paying Men debt upon his estate, was
applicable to the operation of the Sinking Fund, (and that
though the individual might afterwards encroach upon the re.
served portion, still the effect of the remainder would be to .11.
quidate the debt, although the period would be protracted in
proportion,) expressed his conviction that the object for which
the Sinking Fund wax originally instituted, night have been at-
tained, although it should.be admitted, that in point of fact the
public debt had not been decreased in the mean time.—(hear!)
The country might even have been mogressively improving m
the interim. In conclusion, lie would only say, that the Sink.
hoe Fund was calculated ultimately to have the same effect as
in the'. ease which he had put to the Meuse and he would,
therefore, express a hope that it might go on increasing,, until
the purpoeefe of the Bill introduced by the Right lion. Gentle.
,nun should be effected..—( H ear !)
Mr. Jitite: SMITH thought it would be readily admitted
that in the course of the long and dangerous war in which we
had been so recently engaged, great difficulties had been some.
time,. experienced by the Governineut in raising money upon
the public eremitic*. Now, whenever loans were to be borrow.
ed; it followed, as matter of course, that the greater the faci-
Mute of borrowing, the better were the terms upon which the
public-could procure the monies. So tar' and in this sense, al.
though the sinking fund might have failed to be effeceual in its
appropriation to the discharge of debt, it would be granted that
it had been very efficient. He could not refrain from bearing
' testimony to one very judicious measure that was adopted in
respect ofthe last loan, by *Noble Lord, who was at that time
Chancellor of the Exchequer. It being rumoured, that the
Chancellor would want to raise a loan of 24 millions, or even
110• millions, to pay off a liege amount of Exchequer Bills, and to
Otte up sonic other stock ; stocks were sold in the market to an
enormous extent. The Chancellor of the Exchequer very pro.
ferlyiTnade no previous communication of his intentions.; and
the :consequence of his prudence was, that stocks which at his
going into the. market were at 65 rose to 70 ; and,; then he
turned .round and said, " I have occasion, Gentlemen, for
142(elf),0011/., and no more." This was, therefore, a beneficial
loan, and he e,Mr. al, Smith) gave the noble individual great
credit for his proceeding. , lie (Mr. J. Smith) was one of those
who had had occeeion, to obierve, end perhaps on sonic ac.
counts .he had Mid greater opportunitiee of observing it than
innny lion. Gentlemen, that without the services of the Sink.
lug Fund, this country could not have gone on for two years
Linger in its present tiptoe) of raising money. With respect
to the Bill before the Mese, be was happy to eive it hie
warmest approbation, and lie congratulated the Right lion.
Gentleman opposite on lieving 'nought it forward at such a
time, and under sucit circumstances.
Sir HENRY .PAIINELL then addressed the House ; but
froth the circumstance of hie speaking from under the gallery,
we heard, him but indistinctly. lie had given this blt Wet: a good
deal of cOnsideratione And if lie had a plan of his own to pro.
pose,. among :Melt a multitude of projects as had been opened,
lie was almost afraid to bring it forward, lest he should gem
unnecessarily to increase the number of those schemes ; still he
Amid feel it his fluty to sketch the general outline of a pro.
position which lie would leave, should the !liaise approve it;
for future disco Minn. The lion: Member for Knaresborough
had ttilly said, that what the House 'was to decide upon this
subject was—WAS the country capable of bearing a Sinking Fund ?
'Could it sustein the taxes necessary to raise such a fend.? This
seemed to be fair, and, indeed, the only ground upon which the
question could be agitated ; and if he (Sir Parnell) could
Sink that the country was in a state so to bear a Sinking
fund, he would support the upon the table. But, looking
to the pregent state of the country, he really could not bring
himself to consider that the, country was able to make the effort
thus required of it. With regardsindeed, to our manufactures
a:.d our commerce,. these two Interests, 'it must be admitted,
were in a most flourishieg condition. The Right 11(m. Gent. the
Chancellor of the Exchequer profeesed to leave a surplus of
e,000.0001., and totha propriety of retaining these 6,000,000/. he
Parnell) would accede under certain qualifications. But,
if the Right Hon. Gentleman contended that it was necessary
for the country to maintain the surplus, lie wasceitainly bound
to produce it with the greatest passible regard to the ease and
coAveniqice of the public. Ile would admit, that if ever there was
a time at which such a surplus was necessary, it was the present.
Government had certainly made liege reduction* t but in the
c..ittrie of the last two yeers they Might' have been carried to an
infinitely greater extent, had every pro_per exertion been made for
the diminution of our expenditure. When he proposed, there.
fore, that the sinking fund 'Should be increased to the amount
of 8,000,0001., lie was called upon, not perhaps to devise
the precise mates .by. which it could be so increased, butt
. could state two lerge ?mecca, at least, of increase. In the
6 tst place, the whole system of our taxittion ought to be re.
Netted. Ahnnat every one of the taxes had been eriglioally
imported in a great hurry, and was still improvidently col-
lected. There had been no pales taken to itopose or to levy
them in the leak. burthensome Way. By a Judicious revision,
he thought it certain, diet a vastly greater inoduee, might be
raised out of the existing taxes ; that they mig,ht be rendered
much lese burtheneome to the community; and that they could
be levied in a way much more beneficiartoThe country than
at present. He hefted that the Right Honourable Gentleman
wouM abandon the d eluiii on of the commutation of the half-pay;
for he could not bat see, that it was the oddest thing in the world
to establish a Sinking Fund to relieve the country from debt,
at the very Mlle moment that he ,s creating it debt for owe
verity, in order that he might relieve the present generation from
its payment. The Hon. .11aronet thin proceeded to detail his
plan ; which was (as far agree were able te collect it) that the Sink.
ing Fund, by means of further reductions of expenditure, and
en improved collection of the taxes, should he raised
e,000,0001., or an amount equivalent to about It. per ceet. on
the total-debt : that such Sinking Fued shoeld be placed be-
yond the chance of being diverted by the Government to any

other-purls* than the payment of debt, by its application un-
der the authority of Parliament, not as at present proposed, to
periodical purchases or buyings.in of stock, but to tie redepap-
thin of our permanent annuities; that for this purpose, an addi-
tional 11. per cent. on his stock should be given for a certain,
number of years, to the patine creditor holding 3 per cents.,
which 3 per cents. Might, at die expiration of such tem, be al-
together redeemed, perliaps in the eourae of 45 years.
Mr. RICA RDO thouglit that the plan proposed by his lion.
Friend, would do away a great deal of his (Mr. Ricardo's) ob-
jection to the sinking fund.--(hear !)—His objection to that
fnnd was, not to its principle, but that it might be so easily
diverted from' the -objecenf Institution..- Now, his Hon.
Friend's proposition would take its control entirely out of the
hands of Ministers; and this was very satisfactory. His lion.
Friend also suggested the etpediency of mathi . the permanent
annuities determinable ; and thought that by giving the pub-
lic creditor U. per centanore fora.certabknumberot years, the
public debt might• be extinguished after a limited period.,—
But his Honourable' Friend (Sir 11. Parnell) did not do his
own plan - justice; for he • calculated, that in ,forty-tive years
the 3 per cents. might be,got rid of. llere, hOwever, he cal-
Culated them at only HO; whereas he had a right to assume their
price al 100. belts, therefore, than'4s years might -suffice for.
this operation. If parties would accept this commutation,
of their perpetual annuity of ;it. per cent., and receive in lieu
41. per cent. for a limited time, this surely' was a proposition
well deserving the 'attention of the House. 'What might be
the effect of so applying the Sinking Fund to the extent of the
whole debt ? In the event of a war, Ministers ought not to
have any power over that fund; but they ought to conic down
to the House for fresh grants, when new expellees made these
necessary. The Hon. Member, adverting to the Right lion.
Gentleman's observations on what he called a " crotchet" of
his (Mr. Ricardo's), observed, that the principle of his pro.
position was the same as that of the Income Tax. There
it was necessary to ascertain the income of every man
in the country, 111 order to make him contribute; in pro.
portion to his income, to bear the general burden of the
country. He hoped that the Right lion. Gentleman did
not suppose that this contribution was to be made in one pity-
ment. It might be extended to a variety of instelnients,
spreading over a period of two, three, or even 12 Months ; and
he (Mr. Ricardo) did trust, that when the house looked at the
effects which. might result from the execution of such a plan,
they would not think it quite so Utopian as it had been de.
scribed tO be. The Hon. Gentleman then went on, in reply
to some observations that had fallen from the Chancellor of' the
Exchequer upon a speech of his (Mr. Ricardo's) on a former
night, to vindicate the several positions which they had attack-
ed, and to express his approbation of' the suggestions that had
just been thrown out by his Hon. Friend (Sir If. Parnell.)
A ME3IIIER (whose name could not be learned) contended
that the Chancellor of the Excheqiier was not warranted in as.
sinning the surplus at more than 3,000,0001. The other
2,000,0001., arrising out of the half-pay computation transac-
tion, was palpably a delusion, and could form, therefore, no
part of any such surplus. Upon the whole, he should vote
fot the proposition of the Right Honourable Gentleman, be-
cause he (the Hon. Member) was friendly to the principle of a
Sinking Fund.;
Mr.'IIIONCK. was of opinion that Ministers ought to aban,
don the Sinking Fund altogether, and remit taxes to its amount.
Mr. J. MARTIN observed, that many Gentlemen who had
taken part in the discussion spoke of the Sinking Fund as if it
were completely under the control of the Ministers; but the
fact was, that Ministers could not touch a farthing of it without
the sanction of an Act of Parliament.
Mr. HUME said, that it was notorious that all the pro.
positions which Ministers had made in that House for seiz-
ing upon the Sinking Fund had been,invariably agreed to. In
that way 1iN,000,000/. had, from time to time, been taken from
the Sinking Fund, instead of being allowed to accumulate.
Ile would vote against any Sinking Fund, unless the principle
upon which it was at present conducted were altered.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee on the NI),
and a conversation took place bet Ween the Honeurable Mem-
bers, whose names follow, whielt Owing to the low tune iii
which it, was carried on, was frequently inaudible in the
gallery
In answer to a question from Mr.. II V3IE, •
Mr. OREN FELL asked whether, in the event of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer not being eble to sell the annuities at,
the price be expected, the Right Ilon.Thntleitian must not
act upon the clause which he (Mr. Grenfell) had the honour of
ismoduciug last year, for empowering the Commissioner; for
the reduction of the National Debt to become purelascrs of
pensions and annuities.
Mr. HUSKISSON said a few words across the table, which
we could not hear.
Mr. HUME objected to the present Dill, because it proposed
to continue. all the intricate machinery of the Actof last year.
The Hon. 'Member also complained that it was impossible
understand ,the accounts as they. were stated by the Chancellor
of the Exchequer ; and concluded by moving that the words
" Sinking Fund" be expunged front the UM, and those of
"clear surplus of revenue nut exceeding live millions," be
substituted fur them.
Mr. GRENFEIei, wished to know whether it was the in.
tention of Government to give rive millions riot of the cons&
lidated funds for the purchase of stock, in ease the present sur-
plus of revenue should decrease ?
The CHANCEI4I,OR of the EXCHEQUER said, that if
the sutplus in any particular year should be less than five mil-
lions, the deficiency must be made up in spine way. The loss
of one year might be made up by the gain of another. It was
impossible that be could state positively what the amount of
the surplus would bet all that he could do was to form his cal-
culation on an average of former years.—(Hear !)---It was.cer.
thinly an extraordinary doctrine, that because Chancellor of
the Exchequer could not ensure a certain Surplus, he was not
to be allowed to state that a sinking fund of aparticular amount
ought to be maintained.
Istr. RICARDO complained that the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, by' the Bill before the House, declared that to he cer-
tain which he now admitted to be uncertain. The surplus for
next year might be only 1,000,0001., and y tt the House was
called upon to declare that 5,090,000 t. shau'd be paid out of
that surplus. •
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
Forthe Amendment, - 7 ,•
Against it, . „ 55 ,
Majority, , -"P
The other clauses of' the. hill were tnen agrees., to ; the
House resumed, and the report was ordered 'to be received to.
morrow.
The report on the Assessed Taxes' Repeal Bill was then.
brought up and read ; the amendments were agreed to, and
the llill was ordeted to be read a third time to-morrow.
Mr. HUME ;gave notlee,that he should to-morrow move
for certain returns relative to file public debt.. •
The otlier.Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
lionise adjourned:

From the LONDON GAZEVIIE, March

Lord Chamberlain's 011iev, March 11,10:13.
The Kirro has been I.,,raciouify pleased to
.promote Patrick
Macgregor, Esq. to be Third Pnncipal '§erjeatit.Stirgeon in
Oidmary to his Majesty. •

---
110KRUPTCY IJAII0E1).
14. 11. Martelly and 3. Dayrie, Finsbury-square, merchants
from March 15 to April 12, at eleven, at the Court of Ow—
tnissioners.

BAN K R PTS.
T. Tait and J. Tait, Dover-road, Southwark, brewers, to
surrender March 151 at one, 25, at ten, and April' 22, at one, at
the Conn of Commissioners. • Atomics, Messrs. Spence and
Desborougli, Furnivars Inn, Ilolborn.
• C. Niche,. Altiermanbury, dealer, March 15, 22, and April
22, at twelve, at the Cour: of Commissioners. Attorney, 141 r.
King, Coptitall-eosin, Tiirojnitorton-street,
1.. Thompson, Ileaale, Kingston-upon-INR, miller, l‘larch
19, 20, and April 22, at eleven, at the Georg‘e Inn, Kingston'.
upon-Hull. Atomics, Mr. Itusliworth, Hull ; and Mr.liigh-
moor. Scotts-Yard, Bush-lane, Limbo.
DIVIDRNDS.
April 5, J. Carey, Ilagtiet-court, Fleet-street, merchant—
April.l9, G. Smeeton,.St.•Martin's-lane, Charing-cross, pan-
' ter—April 22, F. Forbes, Greenwich, druggist,—April 12, W.
F. A. Dufour,. Berners-street, Oxford-street, jeweller—April
12, R: Bowman, Manchester, grocer—April IS,. J. Burgle,
Mark-larie,carpenter—April 6, It. Barrett, l'oultry,linen-draper
--April 1,, It. Brown, Sheffield, Yorkshire, , draper—A Pril
11,
.1. Bond, Munsley, Hereforibliire, coppice dealer—April 11,
T. Hill; bedhury, Herefordshire, surgeon.—. March 2,lti it.
Roxby, Arbour-square, Commercial-road, ,merchant—April
1, W. D. Gootleve, Wimborne Minster, Doisetshire, brewer
--April 15, S. Bulmir, Oxford-street, linen-draper—April 15,
'W. Dallas 7 Cushion-court. Old Broad-street, merchant.
CRItTII'ICATILS, APRIL 2.
Lee, Cluirles.street, 11orsleydown, lighterman—W. C
vewmP, St. Midi's-court, Bridge-street, Ulackfriars, pain.
ter—J. Giddens, Norwich. bombazine-manufacturer--T.Moly.
Deux, Holborn, boot-maker—E. NVoodward, Derby, inn.
Iceeper.

PARTNERSHIPS DISSOLVED.
J. Johnson and W. Burgess, York place, City-road—J. At-
kinson and W. Leeds,orkshire, surgeons—T. Lowe
and Co. Derby, common-brewers, n far as regards It and 0.
Lowe—T. M'Adam and J. Henderson, Shrewsbury, Shrop-
shire, tea.dealers—J. Richards and J. Harden, Deepntoor Mills
millers—J. Crouch and G. Eveans, Wandsworth, Surrey,
wheelwrights—ll. Bidwell and M. Bidwell, Norwich, woollen.
drapers:—W. Knowles and W. Shawerass; Manchester, linen-
drapers. •