The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-23 00:00:00

NATIONAL RATING.

The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH presented a peti-
tion from Winston, in the county of Gloucester, in
favour of a national system of rating.
BATHS AND WASHHOUSES.
_

The Bishop of ST ASAPH presented a petition from
the parish of St. George the Martyr, Queen-square,
praying that the provisions of the Act for the establish-
ment of baths and washhouses might be extended to
embrace parts of parishes.
POOR REMOVAL ACT.

The Earl of ELLE-NBOROUGH presented a petition
against the provisions of the Poor Removal Act of last
year.

PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND).
Lord BROUGHAM was disposed to ask for a return
connected with a circumstance arising out of the pre-
sent distress in Ireland, and the evils of the system
of labour in public works. He well knew that it was
illogical to argue from a use to an abuse, but.
as illustrative of this state of things, he would call the
attention of their Lordships to the representations made
by the Rev. Robert Brown on the subject of public wol ks
in that part of Ireland with which he was more intimately
connected. The statement of the Rev. Gentleman was,
that a presentment had bean made for 3001. for the pur-
pose of constructing 72 yards of road, net to spoil the road,
but to improve it. But a gentleman—Mr. Flaherty—
came forward and said, that he could get the road done
for two-thirds less than the Government could, and a
survey was made ; the road was given to the contractor
reponerneuded by Mr. Flails!, tje ere— —era was exa-
mined when completed, and it was found that only
36 yards had been constructed, thus proving a very dear
work to the country. The contractor, he might inform
their Lordship, was a brother of Mr. Flaherty. The
Reverend Gentleman mentioned the cruel distress
which prevailed among a poor population of 20,000
persons, who were comparatively neglected by the
upper and sustained by their equals of the lower classes.
He might also inform their Lordships that
he was in possession of much information,
with respect to the pauper immigration into different
parts of Scotland; and the result of inquiries showed
that, in almost every case, these persons had re-
ceived money from the landlords, therelieving officers,
or the priests, for the purpose of taking them out
of Ireland into the sister country. He wished
to suggest to those worthy persons, the relieving officers
of Ireland, that theirs was a dangerous experiment,
for he (Lord Brougham) perfectly remembered when
two churchwardens were tried at York for furthering a
marriage in another parish, that being held to be a con-
spiracy. The sending paupers into this country was a
parallel case.
The Earl of WICKLOW regretted that any such do-
cument as that which had just been presented should
have come before their Lordships, and that such a state-
ment should have been made, for the authorities to
whom reference had been made had no power whatever to
charge the electoral districts with expense. They had
no power whatever of giving relief in money, but those
who were advocates of what was called the clearing
system gave relief in any shape to any who were ready
to ernigeate, without much caring to what part of the
world they went. If the authorities of Glasgow had no
better plea than the one they had put forward, he feared
that they would be of but little service. For
his own part, he was not at a'l surprised at
the immigration of Irish paupers into this
country, and he believed that before twelve months
elapsed that it would go on to an extent of which at
present there had been nothing like a parallel. Only
let them wait till next harvest, and they would see that
there would be thousands and tens of thousands cif
labourers who would hurry into this country. The Go-
vernment had introduced a poor-law into the other
House in the hope of stemming the torrent of
evil, and with a view to relieve this country
from the influx of pauperism from Ireland, but
he begged to warn their Lordships that no system
of poor-law would ever stop that evil, and he
did so in the hope that the wisdom of their Lordships
would be able to devise some other and better remedy.
There was an excellent ground for them to go upon,
from two circumstances—first, from the indisposition of
the landlords to throw their dependents upon others,
and, secondly, from the danger of throwing such a
number of persons like these upon the world. It was
not to be supposed that the able-bodied poor would
be content to take the sustenance provided at
the several poor-houses, but would in thousands
upon thousands enter this country to find the support
which was needed by them. He would warn their Lord-
ships that this influx would continue until there was a
probability that the poor of this country might become
completely and entirely destitute.
Lord BROUGHAM was quite aware of the difficulties
of the case, but if they would look to the last
report a the committee, at page 130, they would
find that Mr. Hughes bad stated that he had
found that Dr. Donnovan and Mr. Swington had
applied the funds sent to them for the relief of the des-
titute poor in transmitting the paupers to places in Wales
to such an extent, that the mayor of Newport had pro-
tested against the practice. It was natural that, if there
was a poor-law in one part of the country, and none in
another, that the poor should go from the latter to the
former.
Lord MONTEAGLE could hardly express his indig-
nation at the course which it seemed had been, pursued
by one of his countrymen, after the lavish munificence
which had been poured out, not only by their Lordships,
but by the very poorest of this land in their behalf.
But he was convinced that the case which the Noble and
Learned Lord had referred to must be a rare and solitary
case ; for no funds were distributed for the relief of the
Irish poor except under the superintendence of public
officers in whom their Lordships had the fullest confi-
dence. These gentlemen had access to the relief corn
mittees to inspect their accounts, and the mode in which
the funds were applied, so that anything improper
must come to their ears, and would certainly
be reported to the Government, who would stop
the further supply of money. He must say that,
assuming the-facts to be true as they had been repre-
sented, be could not but view the case with the utmost
indignation at such an abuse of the funds supplied by
the Government.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE apprehended that
it was not public money which had been so applied .
Lord BROUGHAM believed it to have been money
sent by private individuals for the relief of the poor.
Lord MONTEAGLE said it came to the same thing
in the end, since money so sent was applied under public
superintendence.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE was strongly of
opinion that the funds so grossly misapplied had been
supplied from private resources. But he must say that
if the Noble and Learned Lord would give him
the letter from which he had quoted, he should cer-
tainly inquire into the facts of the case. But.
assuming the
that
efaact itts asbtoadbbeeeu a g
they had
abuse,adbee andnrep a grossresented,
he
job practised on the funds supplied by the excessive be-
nevolence of this country.
BANKRUPTCY AND INSOLVENCY BILL.
Lord BROUGHAM rose to move the second reading
of this Bill. He said, as the subject was familiar
to most of their Lordships, and had the approbation
of the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack
and other learned Members of their Lordships' House,
he did not find it necessary to enter into any long
statement on that occasion. But ho would merely
state his object in moving their Lordships to
sanction the amendments proposed in the Bill. Their
Lordships would recollect that some years ago he had
introduced a Bill, which had been passed by both Houses
into a law, abolishing imprisonment for small debts.
They were aware that that Bill provided that persons
apprehensive of arrest, if they chose to appeal to the
Bankruptcy court, give up their property, and stand
their examination. would receive a protecting order
from the Court; and if no hesitation to give up all their
property had appeared, or no contumacy, or no extra-
vagance, a final order was made by the court,
which protected him against further proceedings on
the same debt. He (Lord Brougham), how-
ever, had since seen reason for transferring
he found thatrle
this jurisdiction to the Insolvent Commissioners
misd
but
the Bankruptcy Court worked well, and seemed to
lead from
been the
urged Bankruptcy
to do so or, igina Clloy,
Commissioners.
have the preference over the other ; for that
Court had more stringent power to execute
the objects for which the court had been erected, and,
therefore, many more applications were made to that
court. But these Commissioners, unusual though it
was for judges, who commonly enlarged their jurisdic-
tion, had almost extinguished their jurisdiction.
The second was a still greater evil than the first. It
was extremely inconvenient to mix up two diffe-
rent codes of laws, each to be administered by
the same judge ; and while, to make up the
third evil, the merchants and traders of the
city of London objected altogether to the insolvent law
being administered in the Bankruptcy Court. Now,
ninet
thinkaddit biotrietroe
would be
beeascihx
long
—for,
n srioer received a
salary of 2,0001. There were six of them; but he did
from a return lie
held in his hand, he found that they did not work more
than twenty weeks a year with the insolvent busi-
ness, and, when that was tese's from them
by this Bill, the number would be reduced
to fifteen or sixteen weeks a year. Now, it was too bid
to pay six Commissioners 2,000/. a year each for
so small a
quantity of labour, besides six regis-
trars at 1,000/. a ear each, and official assig-
nees at not less than 2,0001. to 3,0001. a year.
He proposed, therefore, that the insolvency business
should be taken away from the Court of Bankruptcy,
and then the Commissioners would be reduced from six
to three. It was theiropinion, he knew, that two Commis-
sioners would do, and perhaps for all ordinary purposes ,
these would be sufficient, but every now and then a crisis
in commercial affairs would arise which would augment
the business. In order to meet any increased business
in the court from this circumstance, he thought

three would be the best number to propose.
With respect to the Court of Review, it was
already substantially abolished, and he proposed that it
should be altogether, as he saw no reason why the busi-

r nets of this court should not be transacted by the Com-
miss'oneri themselves. W regard to the appeal.; re
latieg to matters of law, they could, as baf, take=n
before the Lord Caancellor or the Vice Chancellor.
He ought to all that in 1831 the Court of Review ‘i as
continued by the measure he proposed ; that measure
was much opFosed at the time, but ultimately it was
carried with the Court of Review. It was nut possible
for him then to predict that there would be no business
for this court, as it had so happened. But this re-
sult, he believed, had arisen mainly from the admirable work-
ing of the system substituted ft r the old one. As he had
stated, the six Commissioners were to be reduced to three, as
the vacancies arose from death, resignation, or promotion.
This would effect a saving, from the reduction of the commis-
sioners of 6,000/. ; on the Registrars a saving of 3,000/. ; and
on the official assignees from 4,000/. to 5.000 e. Altogether a
saving of 15,0,V, would be effected. Very nearly 200,000/.
had been recovered by the working up of these old commis-
sions. Another alteration he intended in the Insolvent Act
was to abolish the present system of going circuit, which was
attended with a great expense without giving any
countervailing advantages. Mr. Commissioner Phillips,
for instance, was appointed to go to Caernarvon to-morrow,
yet in many places he had but threeor four cases to adjudicate
upon. He proposed, therefore, to do away with these circuits,
and place the duty of the Commission in the hands of the
',seal Courts appointed under the Insolvent Act. The prin-
ciple of the bankruptcy and insolvent laws would, with one or
two exceptions, not be interfered with. Now the exceptions
were in this case. The great difference, their Lordships were
aware, between the Bankruptcy and the Insolvent Acts was
twofold • first, where the party was a trader, and where he was
not ; and the other was with respect to his discharge. The
bankrupt's certificate was not only a personal discharge, but a
discharge against his property for the time coming. The dis-
charge under the Insolvent Act was one which affected only
the person. Now, he was inclined to think that there were
many cases in which it might be requisite to vest in the Com-
missioners, before whom the cases might come, a power
to take into consideration the circumstances of the case.
In the first place, the likelihood of the insolvent
succeeding to an estate, and in the second place the conduct
of the party himself, whether he had been grossly extrava-
gant, and above all, whether, knowing that he was in an ins
solvent state, he deferred coming forward until all his pro-
perty was expended. He had framed the Act to take cognisance
of such eases as these. In those cases the Bill- provided a
protection for, his future gains. The case of a poor farmer,
which was really a very lamentable one, had lately been brought
before him. He had been unfortunate and tried to go on
again, but nobody would lend him a horse or a cow, as if they
did the property would have been seized by his creditors.
That was just such a case which came within the spirit of the
Act. He had now stated all that he meant to say, and he
should now conclude by moving the second reading of the
se which he trustee there would be no opposition. He
then proposed that the matter should stand over until after the
holidays, when the several clauses which it contained would be
known, and all its weak points would be ascertained. It
might then be referred, together with the Bill of his Noble
and Learned Friend on the Woolsack, to a Select Committee
up stairs, and out of the two a measure might be obtained
which would give the trade and the people of the country the
inestimable benefit of a certain mode of proceeding in eases
both of insolvency and bankruptcy. His Lordship concluded
with moving the second reading of the Bill.
The LORD CHANCELLOR was not disposed to offer any
opposition to the second reading of this Bill, especially after the
course which his Noble and Learned Friend intended to pursue.
In 1842 he bad himself introduced three Bills on this subject,
but he had not at that time had the opportunity of giving the
investigation to the subject which it required, but the Bill
which he now had before the House, met, he believed, most of
the points of the Bill of his Noble Friend. That Bill went
chiefly to the details, but did sot touch the great principles
which ought first to be settled, then the details should be made
conformable to them. The better plan would be to send both
the Bills up to a Select Committee, for it was not to be sup-
posed that the majority of their Lordships could be acquainted
with the subject which was involved in them. He did not,
however, anticipate that the) e would be any greater informa-
tion obtained by the Committee, or that any better results
would be arrived at than those obtained by the Committee
which sat in 1828. It should be recollected that there was
already a machinery in existence • there was now three Com-
missioners, each of whom took three circuits a year
each, from which much good was to be expected,
and, at least, by which much expense was incurred.
He said by the recent act judges had been appointed
throughout the country to every district of about seven miles
extent ; so that a man might now bring a debt within 20/.
amount to court within seven miles of his residence. The
duties devolving upon these judges might likely be heavy ;
they had still the power by act of Parliament to practice ;
but how their time might be occupied the Government could
not arrive at any definite opinion. If, however, the business
should happen to increase too much, it would become neces-
sary to make additional arpointments. Now, his Noble and
Learned Friend had proposed to give these Small Debts Courts
power in Bankruptcy. Why ? did their Lordships understand
the state of the Bankrupt laws at that moment ? Did they know
that a bankrupt in Norfolk must come up to London, brirg
all his witnesses, and attend his several examinations at
an immense expense. A deputation had recently waited upon
him to represent the great impediment which this necessity of
coming up to London to Basinghall-street furnished to the pro-
ceedings between debtor and creditor. They represented to
him that the expense was so enormous, that rather than incur
it, they would not come to London. The same remark applied
to Yarmouth, which was the limit of the London district. But
fi a debtor could find a competent judge within seven miles of
his residence, it was not likely that he would incur the expense
of coming up to Lendon. Besides that, there were other
points in the law of debtor and creditor, upon which great
complaints had been made, ar d which required the most seri-
ous attention. He would not then remark upon these points,
nor had he said so much as he had with any other view than to
impress upon their Lordships the great importance of the sub-
ject, and the necessity of appointing a Select Committee to
Sake the Noble and Learned Lord's Bill into consideration.
Lord ASHBURTON said he was not aware that the Noble
and Learned Lord intended taking the second reading of his
Bill that night. He had a petition to present to their Lord-
ship signed by most of the large firms of the city of London,
bearing on the law of debtor and creditor. He was happy,
however, to hear that the Noble Lord had determined on such
a course as that the subject would come on again after Easter,
and that the Bill would be referred to a Select Committee,
a hen the petitioners might be heard. Thesegentlemen would tell
them that as much as 24,000,000/. a year was lost by bad debts.
He was afraid that the gill would encourage to a frightful
extent frauds on tradesmen. Before such a measure was
agreed to, he hoped that the Noble Lord (Lord Brougham)
would consult not only those who were learned in the law, but
also the great commercial interests of the country. In deal-
ing with a question of such magnitude they ought to consider
the propriety of resuming arrest on mesne process, and also
the distinction which ought to exist between bankruptcy and
insolvency. He submitted that there was a great distinction
between an individual in business, who got into difficulties,
and a person who contracted debts for his own gratification.
The law, therefore, as applied to each case should be clearly
distinct. He threw out these suggestions to their Lordships,
and hoped that when the House went into Committee on the
Bill, all its provisions would be fully considered.
Lord BROUGHAM was most anxious that the provisions
of the Bill should be as fully considered and discussed as pos-
sible. With regard to the other matters, alluded to by the
Noble Lord, he was also quite willing that they should be
reconsidered. If any error had been made in abolishing im-
prisonment for debt, it was but right that they should retrace
their steps, though he felt himself that to go back was impossible.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
committed after Easter.
BOARD OF WORKS.
The Earl of CLARENDON laid on the table certain core
respondence with the Irish Board of Works, between the
months of January and March last.
DRAINAGE OF LANDS BILL.
Earl MINTO proposed the second reading of this Bill, on
which, he said, he would say but little, as the Bill had already
met with such general concurrence. The object of the Bill
was for the advancement of loans by the Government to the
proprietors of land for the purpose of drainage and other im-
provements. As its details could be better considered in Com-
mittee than now, he would reserve further observations till
then, and he would now move that it be read a second time,
and as the measure was important, he would further move that
it be committed to-morrow.
Lord EGLINTON would not do anything to delay so ex-
cellent a measure. Still there was a point or two to which he
would call attention. The first was, the limitation to five
years. This would be very inconvenient in several respects, as
in many cases the improvement on the land could not be well
carried out in that time. The second point was, the limitation
of the sum to 10,0001., which he thought was a most incon-
venient arrangement. He considered the sum advanced should
be in proportion to the rental of the land.
Earl MINTO said, whatever advantages might arise from
the proposed alterations, there would be considerable difficulty
in meeting the suggestions of the Noble Earl. It was im-
portant that the Bill should be got into operation as soon as
possible, considering the distressed condition of many parts of
Scotland ; therefore no delay should, if possible, take place.
Lord STANLEY agreed with the Noble Earl (the Earl of
Eglinton) that the limitation of 10,000/. was an unwise pro-
position. It was a departure from the original intention of the
Bill, which was, as he understood it, to increase the produc-
tiveness of the soil. He considered the advances should be in
proportion to the rental of the estates.
Earl GREY said that it had turned out that the necessity
for relief was much greater than was at first apprehended, and
the question then arose how was the money to be appplied?
On inquiry it was ascertained that the great proprietors were
in a much better position than the small owners of land, and it
was accordingly resolved to give the assistance to the latter,
and leave the former to drain the lands themselves. He did
not understand the Noble Earl to say that there should be no
power given to borrow more than 10,000/., but that should be
the limit in general cases, and that there should be a further
limitation under that sum, so that the relief might be made as
general and as extensive as possible. With respect to the dis-
tricts in Scotland he did not conceive that there was any ex-
clusion whatever to forbid their partaking of the benefit of the
grant. There was evidently the same destitution as in Ire-
land. The people were therefore entitled to relief equally
with the proprietors in the sister country.
After a few words from the Earl of MINTO, in support of
the Bill, it was read a second time.
SALE OF ENCUMBERED ESTATES IN IRELAND.
The LORD CHANCELLOR moved the first reading of
the Bill for the Sale of Encumbered Estates in Ireland, and in
doing so said that there had been some delay in the production
of this Bill, but not more than was necessary to constitute the
machinery of the Bill.
Lord STANLEY wished to ask his Noble and Learned
Friend when he proposed to take the second reading of the
Bill? As it was of very considerable importance, and there
were few of the Irish Peers in town, it seemed advisable to
postpone the second reading till after the Easter recess.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that as it would be
necessary to circulate the Bill in Ireland before it was read a
second time, he did not propose to take it till after the holidays.
The Bill was then read a first time, and their Lordships
adjourned.

HOUSE 01 COMMONS, March 22.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
NEW MEMBER.
Air. PERFECT took the oaths and his seat for the bo-
rough of Lewes, in the room of Sir IL Elphinstone, who
has accepted the stewardship of the Chiltern liundred;•.
The Hon. Member was introduced by Lord Marcus Hill
and Mr. Parker.

NEW WHIT.
A new writ was moved fir the Eastern Division of
Somerse:,shire, in the rom of Colonel Gore Langton,
decea,ed.

RAILWAY BILLS WITHDRAWN.
Captain GLADSTONE moved that the order made
upon the Ist day of March inst., for referring the Ips-
wich and Bury St. Edmunds Railway (Extension to East
Dereham and to Aylsham) Bill to the Committee of
Selection, be read and discharged. That the Bill be
withdrawn.—Agreed to.
The Flory. MEMBER also moved that the ()icier made
upun the Ist day of March irst., for referring the Ayl-
sham and North Walsham Railway Bill to the Com-
mittee of Selection, be read and discharged. That the
Bill be withdrawn.—Agreed to.

SECOND READINGS.
Tie following Bills were severally read a second time:
Crowland and Cowbit Washes, &c., Drainage.
Glasgow, Kilmarnock, and Ardrossan Railway
(Amendment, Deviations, and Branehe..4).
Lancashire, Cheshire, and North Wales Drainage and
Inclosure Company's Incorporation.
Leicester Waterworks.
Lytham Improvement.
Scottish Equitable Life Assurance Society.
Shipowners' Towing Company.
Thorne and Crowle Moors Drainage and Improvement.
Wakefield Gas.
RATIN OF SMALL TENEMENTS BILL.
Mr. WADDINGTON presented a petition from the
County of Wilts, in favour of the rating of small
tenements.

MARRIAGES AND REGISTRATION--
SCOTLAND.
Mr. SCOTT presented a petition from the Presbytery
of Selkirk against the proposed marriage Bill for Scot-
land ; also petitions from the schoolmasters of the
Presbyteries of Selkirk, Dunse, Lauder, Melrose and
Langholm, against the proposed measure for the regis-
tration of births, marriages and dea•hs.
BEERSELLERS IN BOLTON.
Dr. BOWRING presented a petition from the beer-
sellers of Bolton, praying to be allowed the same privi-
lege of keeping their houses open as was allowed to the
London beersellers.

EDUCATION.
Mr. BRIGHT presented petitions from Leeds and
Chorley against the Government educational measure.

UNIFORM RATING.
Mr: WYSE presented a petition from Waterford in
favour of a uniform system of rating.
• IRISH POOR-LAW.
Sir WILLIAM CLAY presented a petition from
certain inhabitants residing in the Minories in favour of
extending the principle of the English poor-law to Ire-
land; also, a petition from the Tower Hamlets against
the proposed educational grant.
SCOTCH MARRIAGE BILL.
Col. MURE presented petitions frona-the Presbytery
of Paisley, against the proposed Scotch Marriage Bill
and the registration of births' 'marriages, and deaths.
ANATOMY ACT.
Mr. FERRAND presented a petition from a place in
Yorkshire against the provisions of this Acr.
REGISTRATION OF BIRTHS, MARRIAGES,
AND DEATHS IN SCOTLAND.
Mr. DUNCAN presented a petition from the school-
masters of the Presbytery of Dund.e against the pro-
visions of the proposed Registration Bill for Scotland; in
relation to its effict on them.

GOVERNMENT SYSTEM OF EDUCATION.
Mr. HINDLEY presented a petition from the mem-
bers of the Baptist Union against the proposed grant
for education. The Hon. Member moved that the peti
tion be printed with the the vote/.—Agreed to.
SCOTCH REGISTRATION BILL.
Sir G. CLERIC presented tea petitions from several
places in Scotland against the clauses in this Bill, in as
far as they affected the parish schoolmasters of that
country. He should, therefore, give notice, that when
this Bill went into Committee, he should move that the
12th clause be omitted.

SEAMEN'S ENLISTMENT BILL.
Sir C. NAPIER gave notice of his intention to bring
in a Bill to amend the Seamen's Enlistment Act.

SUNDAY TRADING.
Mr. HINDLEY gave notice that to-morrow he
would move for a Select Committee to inquire into the
state of Sunday trading in the metropolis.
NATIONAL EDUCATION.
An HON. MEMBER presented a petition from Worces-
ter against the Government plan of education.
REGISTRATION OF BIRTHS, DEATHS, AND
MARRIAGES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Lord LINCOLN presented a petition from the pres-
bytery of Linlithgow against certain clauses in this Bill.
Mr. FORBES presented similar petitions from the
presbytery of Annan, and other places.