The Sun.
London, England, 1812-06-19 00:00:00

WAYS AND ME ANS.

11rphIS" Of etwoolidated Fund
Revenle - 4,scos,oo
.
.Lottaies . ..
scilwen's 41:ages, &c.
L, -1,,5,5)
_ - .
Low' iri Irelan'd '
Lein jrfErio.,land , • 4,712,00.)

13,:181,:3;
SU rply - 2,249

Surplus

80,6. i 1

• .
The Interest which was to he provided by Ire-
land for the Loans he had mentioned,. amounted
to 449,7601. including the Sinking Fund and the
Charges. The way in which he proposed to raise
ihat'snm had been- alluded to rather
ludicrously
hisiflon.Trieud (Mr. Huskisson), viz.' by
duty on spirits ;.but he hoped be should be able to
spew the Committee, that the duty on which he
relied, would permanently cover the interest of
the Loan.- 'lle Committee would recollect, that
during the present Sesion, a duty of 2S. 61. a
gallon, which was equal in amount to the foriner
duty, had heen laid on Spirits in Irelaird. The
quantity of Spirits consumed in 'lreland in 181
was 5,762,537-gaMns ; the duty on ,which,. at
2.5. 6d. British, or 8.0. Irish, was 780;3431.
. From this consumption,, he Would deduct one-
fifth, on account of the increased charge, there
wo'uid then remain 4,610,003 gallons, which at
ss. sa. the double duty would produce 1,248,5441.;
being 468,0001. above the duty on the consump-
tion of the last year, and which is 18,000/. more
than was required for the interest and charges of
the Loan of the present year,. It itight be said,
that as the Distilleries were now stopped, this re-
' Venue could not-be safely calculated upon ; but it'
would be recollected, that when thiS additional
flirty was proposed, it vas accompanied an-
_ Other ineasnre, -prohlhiting the exportation of
spirits frwu 'lreland ; and he hadth.c Satisiaa.' ticu
to state; that the duty arising pa-on:the stock in
hand, which might. be Considered as quite safe,
was 270,000/. rt would also be recaleeted, that
un (ley the Act the Distilleries inav he opened dgain
on the Ist November, if the state of harvest
woulti permit it a and he had the t,atisfactibn tef
state, from ,the'hest sources:of information, that
there was every
,prospect bf a most abundant' har-
vest, so 'that there would -be"scarcely any doubt
that the Distilleries-Wbuld-Open at 'the appointed
tikne. .1n 'his talealatians; he had taken no Credit
• for the duty arising :from the distillation_ 6orn
• Siot,hr, for for the duty on the importation of
foreign spirits, which certainly would be import-
- ed ill:he Distilleries continued to be stopped.
.flaVirtg given -this general -statement, heashould
- not at that late hour go into any further details
he Sh6fild,- libwever, be- happy to give any ex-
planation or information that .might be re-
quired.. He felt it necessary, however, to
say a few WOrds' inconsequence bf what had fallen
front hit- Honourable Friend (Mr..Huskisson)
i-nd -the Right Honourable Baronet -(Sir John
Newport). 'His Honourable Friend had com-
pared the revenue of Ireland,
,at the time of, the
Union, with "the revenue:at present, and had con.-
: tended that Ireland, in fact, bad no revenue at nil,
because it did not cover the interest of the debt.
Ile had also stated, that the taxes laid on :Ireland
had not been productive, and had entered into a
sort of general deelarnatioo against the Manage:-
ruent of the revenue in Ireland. No direct charge
had certainly been made against any individual
concerned in the Government, but there Was a
general accusation of mismanagement: These
were Charges very easily thrown out ; but he
wished, when Gentlemen made them, they would
come to particulars ; he ahould like to come to
dose. quattersavith them' upon the subject lie did
not think the 'Right Honourable Baronet quite
candid when he stated, that the taxes- had not pro-
duced the sums Which Were expected; N‘,:itlybut
-stating all the facts to account for the failure. One
tax :ohich had been proposed ;by Mr. Foster in a
famer year, and which was calculated to cover.
_great part of the Supplies, viz. the- tax on spirits,
had-failed. -Why ?--Becanse Mr. Foster miScal-
dulated but 'before the tax Caine into ope-

LONDON: Printed by 71-11
At the SUN OFFIC

ration, the House had thought prnpCT, tint Only'
6011tI•ktry to the opininn of Mr. Foster, hut\ against
his vote, to suspend the distilleries, so that no pro-
+ dnce whatever had been collected. He might re-
-1 fer alt:o to the tax on foreign wiaee and others, to
illilstrate his argument ; but it was not fair to
state cases of failure., as if the Chancellor of the
Excheetadhad'atiisled the House, without stating
the cireurustancei 'which occaSiOned that failure.
Me 'Riht Hononrable Baronet was in 'the 'habit,
every Session,' of ttiakingf these :assertions, and
upon several OneasiOns during the present Session
-heibad, in thetOsence of his' Right Honourable
Friend (Hr. FOster), thrown- out these kind -of
chasgeae and, made the most vindietive assertions
against him. [Here',Sie d. Newport spoke to or-
der e and denied the charges • made by the Right
Itnnourable Gentleman.] Mr. Pole said, he had
not-made any nee( charge,against the. Rig.at. Hom
Baronet ; it was the constant practice of the Rt..
llon Baronet to recalr to qaeStions which badbeen
bercire discussed and decideda it was a- practice
which he had adopted upon the present occasion,
for there was not a word -xhicie he had now said,
which the House -had not Vara overand over
again. Before: Gentlemen. threw blame on the
person who happened to -be Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer for Ireland, because taxes were not al-
. ways productive, they should recollect that it was
quite impossible for any titan to calculate the
amount of-a tax in Ireland with any thing, like
precision.; it could be done in England. Even
, In England experitnents had failed; and his la-
' neiitedFriend, Mr. Perceval, had often observed
to . him, that it was 'impossible to ascertain the
amount of any tax the first year it was laid on ;
sad that when he had proposed to repeal taxes in
Ireland that were unpopular and uuproductive, he
had resisted him, as sufficient time had not been
given to prove their efficacy„ "It was very true,
that great improvements might be made in the '
collection of the revenue of Ireland,, and he agreed -,
with the Rieht Honnurable Baronet that it would
r
be better to' endeavour to augment the revenue.
by improving the, collection of the existing taxes
in Ireland, than by tMposing new ones i hat he
protested agaitist the geberei sort of ebarge Wiiich
Gentlemen Wens hi thv habit of making, as if the -
same systeth now prevailed in Ireland, with legard
to the revenue, that existed- some years ago.— i
This _-night the whole system of the manage- .
meat of all The branches of the Irish revenue had
been stigmatized, as if a scene of fraud and cos-\.
nivance, and gross negligence en=ter} in its utmrist
latitude to this very momedt, and no credit -was
gi;:ea for any attempt at reform. . Was this fair ?
1i,'":,..-: this candid ? That greafmisconduct had for-
merly existed in the management of the revenue
of Ireland was perfectly true, but great exertions
had been made to correct it : numbers (.3f. persons
had -been dismissed,. the salaries 'of Officers had
been increased, to take away any temptation to
fraud; fees had been abolished, and compensations.
allowed, at an expense to the cieuntry,of not less
than 150,0001. a year. He did not think his Hon.
' Friend, Mr. Huskissona was quite candid in his
- statement of what passed in the,Committee up
stairs uponthese points. He would ask, whether
it had not appeared that the Irish Go vernment.had
been indafasigablin its examinations into every
branchof the revenueehadAey not given every pa-
n— ......d .4,,,,,nipnt FLA." IV.. lel U.,. yr r171,3* TZ.,,3.4. „r....
the, subject ? It was then rather hard to have
I these general charges of inattention and misma-
• nagement thrown out as it the, Irish Go-
! vernment had done nothing to remedy the evil.
If accusations • were to be . preferred, why were
1
they not distinct and specific, so that they could
be fairly met ? Did Gentlemen know the charac- •
ters of the persc ns at the head of the revenue de-
partments in Ireland, against whom they were ,
throwing these-general insinuations ? Did they-
know that they were men of as high honour
as any who sat in that Honse - was it. then
fair to malign such persons without stat-
ing the Specific grOund upon which the ac-
casation was founded. It Was not investi-
gation that he objected to, on 'the contrary he
wished that the. strictest examination should be
made into the mad:. of collecting the Reventredu
Ireland ;• be'lladi always been anxious to promote
such inquiries', and -he hoped- that hia_Honoura-
• bie Friend opposite to him (Mr.- Bankes) :would
. probe the subject to the bottom; what he com-
'plaisaied of was that species of general vague decla-
Illation which Gentlemen so frequently indulged
in when. speaking upon the Finances of Ireland,
which it was impossible to answer, because there
was no specific charge, but which were never-
othelcsa _calculated to make tile most unfavour-
: able impression on the public -mind. • His Hon.
-Friend (Mr. Iluskiison) had stated that the
Revenue of- Ireland was collected, at a charge 'of -
twenty-one per cent. now he begged leave
to state that , his Honourable Friend had been
misinformed upon this subject e but with respect
to the. expense- of collection, he had again to
complain,- that when Gentlemen stated the evil
whichdiad existed, they did not also state the im-
provements which had been made. By the print- .
tat Papers on the table it appeared, that the ex-.
pence attending the collection-Of the
,Custom du-
ties in the year•to'January 5, 1811, amounted to
251.5. 4d. per cent,. This year they appeared by
the printed accounts to have been reduced to 20/,
18s. The Exeise, for the same period, was col-
lected at a rate .of 161. lis. 10d. per' cent. and
this year it amounted to about the same. In
' ISll,' the charge of collecting the :Stamp Duties
was 131.e15: per cent. arid this year- 61. 3s. 3d.— .
Was it then fair, candid, or liberal; to repreSeni
the charge of collecting the Revenue 411!tt Ireland
as being 21 per cent. ? Was it fair or liberal not
to state the:impend:meats ' the' Irish GoVerinnent e
had matte,- and were making, in the collectinn of -
the revenue. It was, true, as had been stated, .
that the total charge, of coiled ing all the branches
of the revenue sanounted to 900,0001. a-year,_tlit
in treat ...,uni was ire-11.14:l the m
charge of the a- .
nafeerrient of the PosA-otrecet a ortneb-of the re,-
. p .
venue entirely on a cii9,rint principle from' the ..
others, and the management of Which it was ad- ,
mitted o n all- hatiila -coillic not be reduced as
the- other ilepftittflki6 :night be. in the 900;000/.
was also included thesums which Ix:Ahem granted
1
as a compenaation for fees, and those other -sums

Which had been stetedbyttiz:, 'Right Hon, 'rend
(Mr. Fitzgerald) ; that Innen yet tenntined to he
done ; that the charge of collect*. the revenue
WO greater than could De Wished, he wets most
ret'aly to.a.datit, hut everything, could not he done\
nt ()nee : miteh had- been effected, and the /rills
Government- was incessant in it 4, efforts to con-
tiooe the improyetto'ents which had been made.
Iris Han. Friend (Air. Huskition) had been kind
enough to compliment hint for the exertions which
he had made for the accomplisiontett of this ol.).
elect: He eertainly had endeavoure:i to discharge
this part of Isis duty us the best manner he could,
. but he could not liave' effected what be. had done
if it had not been for the active assistance of those-
very.,, persons who had been :no urnastly,censured.
The greatest attention was phi to the co ad tict of' the
officers concerned in. the collection of the re., enue
throughotiV the eountry, and those who appeared
to have misconducted themseves we're severely
,punished, He would State two recent instanees
to the Committee, one where sortie irreentlaritics
intd. been discovered ,in the ettildttet of a great
Distiller of Limerick, a trial took place, upon
which the distiller was acquitted ; butcirettinstanees
appeared Which induced the Government to order
an owa, avtl the result of which waS,'-a reversal of
,
the judgment of the Sub.=Connnittee ; the Di.stil-
1..--, in addition to the expence of those trials, was
made to pay..;300/. to -the officer who
.discovered.
the irregularity, . and' every officer belonging „to
the Excise and'Customs concerned in the trans-
action was dissnhesett The other' case was a fraud
' diseovered in the Stamp Office, in which 1f) or 11
persons `were concerned, 'all of whom haVe !JeC2ll dis-
charged, Virs then the conduct of thelrish Govern-
ment deserving of th e general imputations which had
been thrown out aoainst it. Be.sides the efforts
the
for the improvement of h collection of the re-
, tenue, which he 'had already entunerated, he.
''
should shortly have to propose a Bill for the con-
' solidation of ,Stiimp Ditties, from which be ex—
pected ;that considerable -benefits would result.
His Hon. Friend, Mr Buskisson, had said that
there was 'no direct tax in Ireland. He never
was more surprised in his life than he was
when
.he heard that assertion. Was the Win-
. clow Tax no. a direct tax ? Were the As-
sessed :Taxes not direct Taxes ? he could not
conceive: where hi. 3 .Hon. Fritn4 had ylyWned
the that inducted him to make such an
assertion. Having Mentioned the Assessed Taxes,
hethought,it right to state, that great improve,
meat had been made, in the -mode of collecting
them, and he had reason to expect that there
'would be a considerable inceease in their produce
this. year. The greater port of these amendments
and improvements had been suggested by the
Commissioners' of Excise, and the other, heads -of
.departments in Ireland, against whom the general
kind of declamation of whieb, -he had Complained.
was directed. One'or two instances of supposed
neglect had been pointed out by his Hon. Friend
and the Right Hon. Baronet, one of theist was
the Leather Tax, the amount of which certainly
had not kept ,pace with the increasing improve-
ment of- the country. The non-productiveness of
the tax was attributed immediately rather to fraud
or neglect, or to both, but he thought the defal-
cation Was capable of another solution. This
Tax. had certainly attracted the notice of the
i Atli. (7-' rtv...evirrit:.•nt , .1,,. 1,...1 rry,..1.. ..m.":7 "'i'"9,
in his power into the subject. The tax .upon
leather was taken on the pit at a certain rate per
foot ; that rate was calculated at the time the tax
Was laid on according to the supposed quantity of
leather that could he tanned in a given time. He
had reason to believe that - great improvements in
j the art of tanning had lately been introduced, and
that a much larger -quantity could now,-be tanned
, in the same time than eoslld haie been xehen the
tax was first calculated; and that -he .conceived ..to
be the cause of the • evasion: The stilOct of this
tax had been discussed by' him. with the Right
Hon. Baronet in the Committee up stairs, and the
Right Hots. Baronet knew this-sentiments uponit,
and his intention of endeavouring to collect the
tax upon leather by the ,pound ; but, the Right
Hon. Baronet had advised him to be cautions,
how lie altered the mode of eoliectingthe duty, aze
be had been. informed by someerespectahle tan-
ners, with wheal he had conversed, that taking
the tax by fly pound would be more subject' to ,
fraud than by the present method. Thtof. the,
Right lion. Baronet,had advised that the subject
should be thoroughly considered before it wase
proceeded upon, kneW that it was under.the,con-
stderation 'of Government, and yet joined inthe
accusation of negligence and misconduct on this
point. Whenever he heard Gentlemen complain
that Ireland did not bear her share of the-taxation
of the eMpire, he could not but help recurring to
- the state of that country at the time of the Union.
It should be recollected that Ireland was an in-
fant State ; with regard to taxation, -it waS not-
understood in Ireland as it was in. England. In
England every man knew that it-was' his intere>t
to take care that his neighbour paid his proper
share of the taxes, because otherwise he would
have to pay his proportion-to snake up the de-
ficiency occasioned by the 'non-payment of his'
neighbour. This was. not understood in Ireland.;
there was not the same facility' in 'collecting.
taxes in Ireland that there was. in England,.and
therefore it was unreasonable to expect 'that the
amount of a, tax could he estimated with the pre-
eision, or collected with the certainty that it was
in England. It was undoubtedly-true that Ire-
land:Was improving, rapidly improving,. in every
respect, in agriculture, in. manufactuies, iii the
L.
'export of her. native produce, in snipping., and
navigation ; but still -she could not keep pace
With the powerful means of Great Britain. It
would be necessary- therefore to . revise the bar-
gain made ,at the :Union, to- proportion her eX -
ertiovi to her powers, and to giVe her time. If
sucha. course were pursued, Leland would, he
was -sure, bear her share.' in the general burthenS
of the empire. Bathe begged the House to.look
at
,the state 'of Ireland at the time of the Union.
At that time Ireland was called. upon to bean, her
proportion Of two 17ths of twenty-Jive millions ;'
this year'she was called upon to bear a like pro-
portion of fifty-eight millions. This was an ex-
peace which, though Great Britain Might; Ireinnd
could not Sastain.. It had been suggested, that the

•
fOM.A.S WOOD, of No. 3S, Maiden-lane, Covent-garden; and rubliehed, by WILLIAM :11tMMER ScitIPPS, South \iolto
:E, Striz(t) where ilacettitTmGas, Orders for 14e
__ether, 14eiters. for-the Editor, &c. (post paid ), ii