The Sun.
London, England, 1841-03-03 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNTSDAYI MARCH Si 1841.

established as test beioks by the University of Oxford, ant
the Noble Lord had quoted teem from t' e works of an
opeonent.—(Hear, hear.) The University of Oxf
a; no more answerable for the works published ie Ox-
ford, than the Ci.y of London can for every work pub-
lished in London. It was chiidi,h, therefore. to content;
that the Un:v, rsity of Oxford was responsible for eveie
work published in that city. There was this great differ-
ence between the cases—these books had never been made
class-books. Did the Noble Lord mean to say that aly
person had ever lectuzei from them? Had they ever
been enforced an doctrines upon classes of the young
men? The Noble Lord had quoted them from the repre.
sentation3 of their opponents.
Lord MORPETEI had not quoted the publication as
expressing the sense of the Uraversity of Oxford, but as
expressing the sense of a groat multitude of persons with
regard to the doctrines promulga eel in the Oxford Tracts.
Sir ROBERT INGLIS would not now discuss those
points.—(' Hear, hear," from Mr. o.Connell.) lie
agreed with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman that that
[louse was not a proper arena for theological discussions.
—( Omar,. ) There were some parts with which he
differed with his Hon. Friend the Member for Kilmar-
nock. He Lai always opposed the grant to May nooth,
because. beiieving as he did that the doctrines of the
Roman Catholic religion were funded in error, he could
never conscientiously vote for the appropriation of money
for the teaching of that doctrine which he believed to be
erroneous. As there was no opposition to the motion,
and as whatever speeches might now be spoken would iu
all probability be spoken over again, he would not detain
the House any longer, but support the motion of his lion.
Friend.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL would not allude to what
had been said respecting the doctinea of the Catholic
Church. The Hon. Gentleman had ststed that he
hal bean hitherto withheld from voting against the
grant because it was sanctioned by an Act of
Parliament, and an express compact ectered into when that
Act was passed, but be bad no scruple in moving tor peal
that Act and that compact. If such a propositiou bad
been brought forward by a Member of his (\lr. M. J.
O'Conntles) religieun communion, lie could not help
thinking it would have been denominated jesuitical.
(Cheers and laughter.) But Hon. Members on the other
side seem to possess peculiar privileges in that respect.—
( Cheers and laughter.) With respect to the grant its, lf,
he was perfectly indifferent, believing, if it was withdraws',
that greater exertions would be made by the Roman Ca-
tholics to place the College on a respectable footing.
(Cheers.) Tee principle of the Hon. Member for the
University of Oxford was au intelligible one, but it might
have a twofold application, and if it should be found in-
convenient in its application, they had nobcdy to thank for
it but themselves.—(Cheers.) This motion was brought
forward for the purpose of supporting the Mayncoth
tation, which had rather been discontinued of late. The
agitation having been recently confined to the differences
between the Evaagelicels and the Puseyites, and he would
not allude further to that subject, as he should be sorry to
throw any obstacle in the way of one of those parties con-
forming to the communion to which he belonged, to which
they seemed rapidly approaching.--( Cheers and laughter.)
The Hon. Member had quoted Inglis's Travels in relation
to Maynooth College, and had attempted to excite a pre-
judice against the Roman Catholic clergy, and uefortu-
natelytherewere many ready to believe any story, however im-
probable, provided it was circulated of the Roman Catholics.
He did not think this feeling was confined te the unein-
catad and the vulgar, there was a publication which was
cornett red the organ of the high Tory party, he alluded to
the Quarterly Review, which, in an article headed " Re-
manism in Ireland," afforded an example of that kind of
spi.it to which he bee adverted, that of shadowing out a
spirit—giving nothing tangible to lay hold of, but doing
everything that could raise prejudices and excite schism.
The Hon. Member then proceeded to read several extracts
from the Quarterly Review, and proceeded—Such state-
ments disgusted all rational and thinking men. He hoped
they would see tha Bill of the lion. Member for Kerner-
neck shortly, as he hoped the Hon. Member would lose
no time in bringing it in. As he had said before, he
thought the Bill was not so much an object with the lion.
Member as the making of a speech.—( Laughter.) The
Hon. Member in the opening of his speech had talked
about avoiding asperities, now lie (Mr. M. J. O'Connel)
would have it to the House to say how far he had done so.
—(Cheers.) Ho trusted the House would not lightly
pass censure upon the Roman Catholic 'priesthood in Ire-
land ; time, howevee would be gicea en the second reading
of the Bill fur considering that subject. Tee Noble Lord
the Secretary for Ireland bad not overdrawn the influence
that that body of men had over their flocks, and he thought
they n,i ht challenge comparison for piety and devo ion
with any body of men, whether connected with the S.ate
or not.— (Cheere.)
Mr. CUMMING BRUCE was disposed to agree with
the Hcn. Member who had just sat down, that many of
the Roman Catholic priests had performed their dufes in
a manner that could not be questioned. As the Noble
Lord the Secretary for Ireland had stated that it was not
his inteetion to oppose the introduction of the Bill, he
should not occupy much of the time of tee House. lie
thought the speeches that had been made on the other side
had not answered in the slightest degree the excellent
speech of his Friend who had introduced the subject. The
Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had expressel a
hope that the Bill would be introduced as soon as possible.
Now for his own part he must say, after the postpone-
ment by the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies
the other z ight of so important a int a-sure as the
Registration of Voters (Ireland) Bill in consequence, as he
said, of the pressure of other public business, he ( Mr,
C. Bruce) thought his Friend was bound not to introduce
his Bill till after that most important period fixed upon
by tire Noble Lord, of the 24th of April. He trusted his
Friend would not be so uncourteous as ti introduce it be-
fore that period.
Mr. LANGDALE wished to make a few observations
with reference to what had fallen from the Hot. Member
fur Kilmarnock. That Hon. Member had repeatedly re-
ferred to the word allegiance, and from it he deduced these
the Roman Catholics were disloyal. Now, with referece
to that, he must be allowed to say that the Catholic held
a very diffrrent allegiance to his Sovereign from that which
he held to the head of his Church. They were as totally,
as entirely distinct as the two principles of spiritual and
temporal authority. He had repudiated over and over
again the doctrine that Catholics did not bold the same
allegiance to their Sovereign as was held by those who
were members of the Protestant Church. Tee
Honourable Gentlernaa said that the Catholics
denounced the Protestants as heretics and schis-
matics. Now, he should like the Hon. Gentleman
to state the difference between the Church of England
and the Rorn. i-h Church in that respect? Did not the
Church of England call those heretics and schismatics who
differed from tv-ern ? The Hon. Member for Oxford hart
stated that he was a Churchman, and any doctrines incompa-
tible with that Church he felt bound to deprecate. The
Hon. Gentleman had said that 'there was strong antis
Protestaetism in Ireland. He would ask that lion. Gen-
tleman whether aere was not a strong anti-Catholic feel-
ing in Ireland. Was there not a party there who, when
the claims of the Catholics were acceded te, kept op that
feeling against them that existed in Ireland before ? Then
it was said there was strong preaching in the pulpits in
Ireland. Was there, he would ask, any stronger language
used than that adopted by the itinerant preachers of the
Protestants in this country? He alluded to Mr.
M'Neilo and others who had gone through all the
large towns of the kingdom, raising a cry against
the Catholics. If the spirit with which the Catholic
Emancipation Bill was brought in by those great men
who had introduced it, bad been acted upon in Ireland in
the spirit in which it had been acted unon in England,
those prophecies that had been made at the time the Bill
was brought in, that it would turn out a failure, would
never have been accomplish° I, for it would then have I
been an entire settlement of the question, and the lion.
Gentleman would sever have had occasion to bring for.
ward a motion of the description he had called the atten-
tion of the House to that night.—( Hear, beer.)

Mr. LITTON said that if he beli.ved that the Roman
Catholic doctrines, as taught by a great portion of the
priesthood of Ireland, were of the nature which had just
been described, he fir one would not be anxious fur the
success of the motion before the House. He believed
that the Hon. Gentleman had se:if truly, ftr himself and
for a very large body of the Roman Catholics of this
country and Ireland, that they had rcpudi del upon their
oaths the doctrines which were imputed, and which he
was obliged to say he continued to impute, to the teacl:ers
in the College of Maynooth. But if the statements which
had been made both in and out of the House for five cr
six successive years were not true, he was surprised that re-
spectable and conscientious Roman Catholics, who pro-
fessed to be the friends of that College, should not be the
first to challenge inquiry, and refute the charges which
had been brought forward. If the Hon. Gentleman would
fairly meet the charges, he (Mr. Litton) would be most
happy to assist him in the investigation. There were
none who were mere keel e tad in having this question
settled than the respectable, loyal priesthood of Ireland;
none ought to fe,l half so much anxiety to grapple with
the subject, not by reading scraps of books, but by
b Idly and fairly testi:sg the whole of the state-
meute.—(Hear, hear.) He would not then go at any
length into the contents of the class-books used at May-
nooth,—but he pledged himself to prove, on a future oc-
casion,- that they inculcated, in almost every is, ge, all
the intolerance and disloyalty which was evinced by the
few paragraphs read by his Hon. Friend the Member for
Kilmarnock. The Hon. Gentleman who last addressed
the House had candidly stated that he had never looked
at those books, and that he did not even know their names
Yet it could not he said that the motion then before the
House had taken them by surprise. For five successive
years exactly the same statements bad been made ; for
three or four years the same divisions had been taken;
and Hon. Gentlemen could not therefore be unaware of
the nature of this motion. He would ROW give notice
that upon the second rending of the Bill be would call
upon the Hon. Gentlemen opposite to deny if they could,
oe w
openedwo
ro
k r
sd st o whichthatwhdcoh henbaahtd
bba
an ded
ro
fr
,oc r
tai
or to explain away if they could, the distinct palpable
e
tinHa
ioenanen.di meaning
fun
tdhtolio.chs
hicedrb.syc ofihnie!
should then show that no man reading thole works could
doubt that their plain and palpable meaning, especially
as cddresscd to youth and to the unlearned, was, first, to
inculcate the absence of allegiance to the. Crown,
and next, to inculcate that ot.ths need not be kept
with heretics, if the interests of the wman
Catholic Church required that they should be brOken,
and he thought that no conscientious Roman Catholic
should suffer such allegations to be unansee e 1 or twin-
w.
qre into, d if he was convinced that they could be dis-
proved.—(H ar, hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL rose and said, Sir, I begin first by
saying that I believe all that is taught at Maynooth, and
next, that I will check, from respect, to the Howe, my
contempt for some assertions that I have heard made to-
• ht ) I have heard it said that the charges
which have IRen made tonight have been made frequently
in this House bt fore. I have been longer in the House
than the Han. Member, and I never heard anything ut-
tered thin
ain House so indecent as the assertions I have
heard made te-night.
He says Viey have been made else-
where. Oh, I admit that they have been made elsewhere.
He says they have not been denied. Oh, Sir, they

,save been denied as often as they 'have been merle,
rid their falsity has been demonst-ated to such a- ire
that I am astoriihed that e ey men's pri iudices, or his inte-
rest, or his prejudii e•! intere-.. could induce hen too rest
asser. iens wiiie'a have been soi..i:.gaantly denied. He has
talked r f aileeiance beiag !rite red away by our r eleeten.
I ail( pM him to that—l will prave t him, w. ensves tine
uhject comes ferward, that t'ere ntver was a more un-
founded assertion, that bigotry Lever mattered
nor did malice ever utter a calumny more untrue. He
has, in talking to gentlemen, who are hi; equals at least,
• presumed to say that they disreg rd their oaths. I will
not trust myself to say how that may be answered. If it
was answered out of this House I should say it was as f ilse
as Lel. He never can prove it—he ha; proved noti lag.
He has quoted the ribaliry which has been uttered-
, at fanatic meetings, and he has called for en loves-
ligation of these charges without attempting t r give
page or chapter. If he had done so I have that
by me by means of which I could in three minutes hulas
reputed his statements. The Hon. Memher who speke
last stated that the Hon. Gentleman quoted book. Ah
he did so; he quoted two passage; by pages; I have
them before me, and if it were not that I have something
more important to do at present th an to go through these pas-
races I would show that there is not a single word ie tee m
which a Christian should be in the slightest deeree
ashamed of tr shrink from avowing, or that a Christian
should not utter; and that there is not in the passages
quoted a single word which is inconsist .at with the charity
which belongs to any creed.—(Hear, hear.) He has
quoted from Dr. Slevin, wad a number of other works, but
e did not give me the Large. I called to him fur tee
gas •. He tattler had it or he had it not. If he
had it and concealed it I leave him to the jutieent
of the House. If ho had it not, I ask how
could be presume to come down to this House and write
out the passego and nut give the page in which that pile-
' sage was to be found ? I will tell Lain why he did it. It
was because he knew that if he gave the page he %vauld
be contra lieted in a momest, and confuted, too, with ease.
The Hon. Gentleman is, in. his general conduct, a gen-
tleman of perfect candour. He avows what he thieks, and
fellows it out to all its consequences. Sir, I would wish
tis imitate him—it is my ambition to bo like him ha that
reseed. lam a Catholic as he is a Protestant, and I
wish only to express my real feelings upon this subji et.
He has given his opinion upon every occasion hitherto
without the least discourtesy. I always respected him f
it ; but I cannot say that I was satisfied with his answer
this evening._( Hear, hear.) Sir, the Noble Lord, who has
spoken of the Puseyite doctrines, did not attri-
bute those doctrines to the University of Ox-
ford ; but he did impute them to several cler-
gymen of the Establishment who had been educate !
there ; he did impute them to the professors et Oxf ntd,
and, I believe, he imputed then to a Bishop educst yd
there; and be said that, contrary to the oaths which they
had taken, they were preaching Popery through the me-
dium of Protestantism. B 1 used be God, their doctrines
are very near those efihe Roman Catholic Church. 1a n
very glad than they have commenced this charge; I re-
joice in the triumph which it give.; to our religion. The
Hon. Gentleman commeacei his speech with a declaration
that lie would not willingly say one word to wound the
feelings of those who differed from him in religion. Such
was the commencement rf his speech, and yet in that
speech he introduced one of the most violent tirades of :he
most abominahle calumnies that were ever heard.—( Hear,
hear.) Now, if instead of being a sincere gentle-
man he had been an arrant hypocrite, wool t he
not have followed the same course, bi- ginning with
profeisions of liberality, and ending with vituperation
and calumny ? That is a course which is altogether un-
becoming in him, He quoted authorities, and he referred
to the Cisalpine and ultra- Montanist doctrines; and cer-
tainly he has got the most left•handed views of those dh c.
trines that I ever heard.—( H ar, hear.) If any Catholic
clergyman had heard his statement of those doctrine, Jre
must have been exceedingly auewel. The quartet in that
case was an invasion by the State upon the Church, and
he has quoted a running commentary upon the violeare of
many of the French is that quarrel. Yes, Sir, he is qui c
right—the Parliament; were opposed to the Reny of the
Church. And what was the result ? The French Reva-
lution, with all its hone r:, the infidelity which brought on
tl.e Revolution, and the trampling upon all institutions
which accompanind that Revolution. But I may remark,
is passing, that there seems to be no g eat symbathy on
some points between himself' and the Hon. Gentleman who
seconded hp motion. If I mistake not the Hon. Gerais-
man is a Non-intrusionist whilst the Hon. Gentlemen who
seconded his motion is as letrusionist. I saw the other
day a speech of the Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Kilmarhock, in which he disclaimed any connection with
that party who thought net the State should presume to
interfere with the Ciurch. Do the Honourable Gentle-
race agree on that.point? No they entirely differ. Tne
Non-intrusianist sets the State at defiance, deriving his
views from John Knox ; the other is fur giving the State
control over the Church. I tell the Hon. Gentleman
that I don't think the quarrel of the Scotch is likely soan
to termiiiate—it seems to be as pretty a quarrel as any per-
son ibitnical to the peace of that Church could dealt e. I
beg to tell Lim also that tie ultra-Montane doettitie,
as far as we are concerned, is now at an end in all
Catholic countries. Let him go into any State of Europe
aid show me a state in which Catholicity is not Weed-
ing. Let him go through the world and show me a state in
which Protestantism is extending. I am sorry to make
these remarks, but I Lava been forced into a polemical
discussion, and I should be ashamed were I not prepared
to give the reason for the hope that is in me. He talked
f Bulls which were required to be published in the
addresses to the Catholic Bishops. We struggled fir
emancipation—it was offered to us if we gave up the ap-
poietmest of our Bishops. Wo flung en.aacipation to the
winds, rather than our Church should bow her head to
any Church whatever, or have her tarnished by any adul-
teraus connection with State authority. We have Tel
triumphed the less. The Hon. Member talks of the cif-
ference betwem the Irish priests educated in France aid
those educated at Maynottia—(Hear, hear, hear.) He
quotes Inglis as an authority the water, not tits
Member.—(A laugh.) The House will see at once what
discrimination the Hon. Member possesses. when he tells
them that Inglis wrote in 1832, and that there had been
no education of Irish priests iri France since 1792. Ia
that year the French Colleges were suppressed, and no
man was afterwards allowed to go'to France to be edu•
cated. I will leave the House to say how many of these
who were educated before 1792 are now alive, It is
manifest that the priests educated before that peri id
were not, as a body, living in 1832. I give the
Honourable Gentleman credit for not discerning fast
from falsehood—truth from error. He is under a happy
kind of delusion on this sehject. The Hen. Gentleman
has alluded to Lord Castlereagh as being a great theo-
logian; that is a quality for which I never before had
given him credit. lie has also referred to Emmett and
he has read part of Emmett's evidence before the Com-
mittee of the House of Lords when he acknowleeged ltime.
self a traitor, and consented to be examined. Let me not t e
of Emmett. He was an
accomplished gentleman; he was a conscientious gen-
tleman ; he was a man adorned with all the virtues of pri-
supposed to speak slightingly
rate life ; he was rising exceedingly fast in his profession,
ienee; he was a rigid
schemes Presb-
yterian of the French lie ye-
lution,f his talents and virtues ; he wassec
and
wasa alceeaaeurmsneeb daurnki in
odertiriineur
tyoh
one of the United Irish Executive Directory; when I.e
was captured he gave that evidence. But what authority is
he for Catholics? He had no connection with the Catholi .s.
In that insurrection there was scarcely one Catholic gen-
tleman implicated. ALuost every gentleman executed was
&dial- a Protestant or a Presbyterian. I do net
remember one Catholic who was executed for taking pat t in
it, though I remember many Protestants and Presbyte-
rians. He kiss, indeed, made a long dissertation on the in-
timidatioa useii by the priests, aid ae has ventured in t' is
House to say that he can prove to demonstration that such
intimidation is ia force. Oh I Si-, the facility with which
Honourable Gentlemen can make as.ertions they have no
means of proving ! Does he know that there has
been no less than thittsen Committees before every
one of which the electors were influenced imgroperly
by the intimidation of the priests ? In six cut of these
Committees, the popular Members were unseated, but not
in one of then was there an attempt made to prove inti-
midation or misconduct on the part of the priests. Not
in one of them was the charge which he makes established.
An opportunity for proof was offered ; and I implore the
House only to remember that that opportunity ef support-
ing the statement on oath was neglected, and flinched

from by those who continued to repeat the calumny.
To be sure these priests have taken a part, they
spoken in disparagement of bribery and of perjury ; but
I deny that ti:ey have done aught that is unworthy` of tl ear
sacred office. Mr. Singleton be mehtions. as Mr.
Singleton es er wltbin the walls of a Cithslic Chapel?
Was he ever within the precincts of a Catholic altar ?
Such men speak wbst they have heard, and what they
would have others believe ; bet throughout the wh(he.
,f that eviLnee there is but one wi:ness who speaks
of being present, and as we have tad a discussion abut
him before I need not now relent his statements. But I
treat
that calumny upon the priesthood with contempt.
I c!,l imagine, Sir, that Exeter Hall was the place in
which alone such low, filthy, loathsome, falsehoods against
the Catholic clergy could be uttered.—(Cheer..) I
thought that the utterance of these mean calumnies would
be confined to Exeter Hall. Is that, Sir, to be t aas-
planted into this House? Are we to have Exeter H 11
here? The speech of the Honourable Gentleman has
teen called an able speech ; Sir, I say that it :was
a s'anderous and calumnious speech.—( Loud checr,.)
He brought forward charges against ua, but he took espe-
cial care not to enable me to contradict him, and would
not give me the page from which he quoted, after I had
asked him. I repudiate these doctiines, every one of
them.—(Cheers.) They have Leen repeatedly repeated
and repu6ated. —( Hear, bear,) My sternal salvation de-
pends on my sincerity. I speak in the presence of a God,
who will judge me; and I cannot atfod to annihilate a
single portion of the comfort, consolation, and hope, that
is in me.—(Cheers.) And who is it that uttera those
calumnies against my religion ? A disciple of John
Knox. If the Hon. Member for Newels (Mr. Glad_
stone) was here, he would not allow the Church of
,he Honoinal la ilr'ealber (Mr. Colqubon) to be a Church
at a 11..( Loud laugh:cr.) there any ordination in his
Church? The Hon. Member for Newark will m t allow
it. And who was the founder of his Church ? Has the Ilins
Gentleman ( Mr. Colquhoun) read Mr. Tytlei's welt
raspectirg Queen Elizabeth, and his charges against John
Knox ? Does he know Oat Tytler proves him to have
been as accessory before the fact to two murders? H .s
he read the works of John Knox himself ? And does he
know that John Knox says that faith is not to be kept with
Catholics ? We hare ever disclaimed such doctrines, and
I defy him to prove that Catholics ever held them.__
(Cheers.) Faith is to be kept with every body, and that
man, let him call himself what ha may, breaks the law of
God who violates faith with any human being.—( Cheers. )
John Knox argues distinctly that faith ought not to be
kept with heretics, and he kept none, for having obtained
power by means of Catholics, his first act was to abuse it
hY procuring laws to be enacted. against Papists. Talk Cf
allegiance! Had the disc'ple of John Knox never heard
•f his " Blast egsinst the monstrous regiment of women ?"
Did he not preach up rebellion, and condemn sovereign
authority? I have been unwillingly forced into this polemical

_ .
discussion. My religion has been attacked, and it is my pride
tad my duty to defend it. It is the ancient religion this
land— it is the religion of Alfred and of E.lward,oFe seee.
nod of Sir Thos. Mere It is a religion which ca: e e g
the persecution of the early Christ tins, and h eue
the flames anal wild beasts of the Reinsn leeiene e t,..,
and it will exet when some traveller from Zealeiet
shall sketch the ruins of St. Paul's from the last ar eh of
L :noon Bridge. As I said, I did not provoke tbis discus-
sion ; but I have other topics. Can anything exceed the
bigotry of the petitions which have boon preheated ? Do
they net breathe all the rancour of the early Reformation,
as it is called ? And was not that rancour exhibited by
the Gentleman who gloated over the bigotry of those
petitions ? "It was time," said the Hon. Member, " that
the House should respond to the sentiments that had so
long existed abroad." I know there are millions in this
country who scorn such sentiments.—(Cheers.) lie
talked of a response in this House, and I saw Ho-
r.ourable Gentleman on the other side cheer the must
malignaut and unfoundel of his assertions. Blessed
be God, the pe Tie of Ireland know that big try
so foaming and boiling over, never polluted this House
before. I wish I could prophesy it never would again. It
shall not do so with impunity. Talk of the people of
Ireland ! Do not judge of them as they are calumniated,
and their religion perverted in this Huse. Has not the
Noble Lord given you their character ? Are not our
women among the purest—are not our men among
the most temperate ?—( Loud cheering.) Is not
their relieious feeling the strongest? The Hon. Gen-
tleman tells me he has bests in Ireland. His visit was
nut one of mercy and charity, but to discover what he
could blarre.—( Hear, hear.). lu his own evidence there
is no mark of candour, or I would read it for him. He
has been there ; arid does he know any people on the face
of the earth so many of whom are communicants every
Sunday in the yr ar ? The altar rails are thronged
with them, and let Honourable Gentlemen remem-
ber hew they regard the solemn mystery there consum-
mated, and tell me where, on the face of the t ar:h,
they find a people with so much zeal for their religion,
with so much practical piety as the poor people of Ire-
land.—(H, a-, hear.) True, they have their errors,—re-
venge is perpetrated among them, and under its influence
many are scattered at road and meet with untimely deaths;
vengeance has broken down the restraints of religion
and the feeliogs of humanity ; but look at the country,
and contrast it with your own, or with Scotland, and you
will find crimes infinitely less in proportion and atrocity.
No horrible murdes arc committed there, from the
base motive of acquiring a little property.—( Hear, hear.)
I am proud el being the representative of such a
people. They are a religious and a moral people, and
true religion and morals is still spreading through the
land. I hold in my hand a document from which I will
read to you what the state of the population it. You
talk of Protestant Ulster. There aro 976,088 Protes-
tat;ts of every description in Ulster, but there are
1,992,828 Catholics, giving us a majority of 116,740.
In Leineter our majority it 1,334.014: In Munster it is
1,975,964, and in Connaught 1.166,280, do luctin,, only
57,750 Protestants. Is it then in this House that the cry
of bigotry is raised and propagated against that country ?
It is not wise--it is not prudent—above alt, it
is not Christian.—( Hear, and cheers.) Would 10 God
an end were put to these polemical discussions; and they
would be put an end to if the Hon. Member would mind
his own religion more and that of others lees. Let blip
study Presbyterianism, let hiru study the principles of the,
English Church—it is said he communicates with it. al
hope it is a calumny as he is a Pie3eyte ion. I conjure
him, therefor e. to look at his own religion, and not at the
religion of others—of others who are no more then him-
sof tainted with any one doctrine inconsistent with the
purest morality or the precepts of the Divine law, either
expteased or and whose ancestors had the courage
to sacrifice the last drop of their blood rather than aea--
don by deed, or word, cr insinuation, one p rtiele of
their faith.—( Loud cheers.) I beg leave, Sir, to support
the Hun. Member is asking leave to bring in his Bile but
I believe he %ill never 17ring .it ire —(Hear, hear, and
laughter.)
Mr. :Sergeant JACKSON began by eulogising the
character of the Hon. Member for Kilmarnock, thae
whom, he said, there was no man in this country e h
possessed more moral and religious feeling. Was this
question to be met by an attack on such a man, or by an
attack on John Knox ? His Hon. Friend's statements
had teen deeisd, but he (Mr. Sergeant Jackson) was
ready to prove, and to give chapter and verse for their.
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. O'Conre'D
had misrepresented, as was his custom, what had fallen
from his Hon: Friend, who had not stated that he quoted
from Mr. M.Nevin before the House of Lords, but from
the work published by Mr. M'Ncvin himself. Mr.
M`Nevin was a member of the Roman Catholic Commit-
tre for establishing a Roman Catholic College in Ire-
land—a feveurite project at that filo.. What he hal
written, and what had been quoted by his. Hoe. F isnd,
was as follows :—" The Education Committee for the
united education of Roman Catholics and Protestants to
be dependent on the people for support, and under the
joint control of the clergy and the laity. But the clergy-
men determined to have the sole control, and procure] the
assent of the Crown by addresses against Defenderi rr."
That was the statement of his Hon. and Learned Friend.
The lion. arid Learned Geotleman the Member for Dub.
lie stated that the conduct of his Hon. Friend was inde-
cent in the highest degree. What was the facts of this
case? This College was established in Ireland for the
purpose of promulgating sound moral principles. Such
was the intention of the Legislature ; but, as his lien.
Friend had said, " was that the result ?" He raid no,
bemuse he found books containing objectionable m. ter
used in tee course of eiticaii m. He could refer to them.
The. Comm;ssioners is 1834-5 applied to the Principal of the
College of Maynooth to be furnished with a list oft he becks
used by the students, and a return was made which might
be fonnd at page 11 of their Report. In it he found I! e
names of all the books the students were required to per-
cheo-, and alio a list of those recommended to 'heir use by
the Professors. Among them would be found all those
from which these objectionable passages had been quoted.
It was a question whether the Roman Catholics believed
these thirg:: He ( Mr. Sergeant Jackson) thought they
did not believe them. He beieved no educated Catholic
in that House or out of it behe:e.l them, and that if they
were a sate of the use of such books by the students, they
would denounce it. He agreed with what had been said by
the Noble Secretary for Ireland as to the religious charac-
ter of the Irish people. He (Mr. SergeantJaskson)beli ved
there was hot a more pious and singularly religious
people upon earth than the poor Roman Ca belie popu-
lation of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) Could anything, there-
fore, be conceived mere cruel than to allow those who
were to be their teachers to:be instructed in such books ?
—( Hear, hear.) He said it would be a great wickedness
in that Assembly if this fact were proved to their sari:_
faction if they continued their support to at inst;tution in
which such abominations were tolerated and promulgated,
They had been told no references had been made, awl
therefore, though he was sorry to weary the House, he
would give one cr two :—ln Bailey's Modern TI en
logy on the subject of theft, chapter 7, page
232, was as follows : " How great may be
the quantity of things stolen in order to constitute the theft
a moral sin ?" Arid the answer was, that the question was
not easily determined, and that the offence was less with re-
spect to a rich man than a poor ore, who could
less afford the loss. Then "Dens' Theology" distin-
guished four classes of men. First, the illustrious,
or those who lived in splendour; 2dly, those who lived on
their own estates, and in competence ; 3dly, artificers and
those who supported themselves by their own labour ;
and, 4teily, the poor who supported themselves by b g-
girg ; and it was clearly laid down, that, in order that
theft should constitute a moral sin, from the first rank
fifty or sixty ponce were sufficient; from the second rank,
fur iy pence ; from the third rank, twenty or thirty pence ;
and from the fourth rank, four-pence, or even a penny,
if they had nothing else to live by than beggisg.
Such was the scale given to regulate what amount of
theft was required to constitute mortal sin. It was also
alleged in the same work that a woman might steal from
her husband, if it were for the support of her children,
and to keep them from want. Such were the morale in-
culcated in a seminary established for the education of the
Roman Catholic clergy and laity. Again, on the sub-
ject of oaths, it was held that a man might violate an
oath under certain circumstances, and on the express order
of his superior, and it would be remembered that all the
monastic criers in Ireland, the Dominicans, the Fiansis-
cans, the Augustins, and the Jesuits, bad their In ads or
snpei iota resident at Rome, and yet these men were to be
allowed at the dictum of their superiors to violate any
calm they had taken.—(Mr. LaeArdale—" No, no—it is
not so.") It was so stated, hoe ever, in the book, unless
his understanding was very obtuse. He should be glad
to hear some explanation of it. He should not occupy the
time of the House by giving other quotations from the
Rr rk to show that that was the doctrine held with respect
to oaths, but he could an hundred other instances. He
had been induced to refer to it, in consequence of the
challenge thrown out on the other side, that there was no
ground for the statements of his Hon. Friend. The
Noble Lord said, of the works read in the College of
Maynooth, many taught the Roman Catholic doctrine
that that House had no right to quarrel with
them.--( Cries of " Hear, hear.") Now these atrocious
doctrines which had been referred to in the course of the
debate, had been condemned end censured, and denied both
in and out of the House, and it was acid that they were
merely a pact of the series of calumnies which had been
heaped upon the Roman Catholic body. The books were
now set forth—their names and titles were given, and if
these doctrines were repudiated and scouted by the
Catholic body (and he sincerely believed they belonged
to no religion), why not have them erased from the list
of books which were presented for the instruction of the
Roman Catholic laity and clergy ? He thought the House
owed a deep debt of gratitude to his Hon. Friend for
having brought the subject before the House, and it was
scarce just or equitable to heap odium and abuse upon
him for doing so, when the quotations he had made fully
bore out his statements.—( Hear, hear.) There was one
thing he was delighted to hear from the Noble Lard,
namely, that these denunciations from the altar, of which
they had heard so much, and which could not be deni:d,
were an intolerable nuisance and ought to be put down.--
( Hear, hear.) It was well known that the soldiers were
frequently prevented from attending chapel in consequence
of the language used by the clergyman from the altar.
The lion. Member for Kerry had reed a long extract from
the Quarterly Review, and among the passages the fol-
lowing—" How many Retinae Cathelic clergymen are R
p tilers?" and had made a commentary upon the question of
the editor. Why, it appeared to hies, and that was alto
the opinion of her M.jesty's Government, that no honest
or loyal man ought to be a repealer, orouglat to belong to
any society having for its object the dismemberment of
the empire.--( Hear, hear.) And yet, at a late meeting
at the Corn Exchange in Dublin, a letter was read from
Dr. Higgins, the titular Bishop of Ardagh, inclosi
the subscriptions of himself and 74 clergymen of the
diocese, to the Repeal Association In addition to that,
they had the testimony of the lion. and Learned Member
for Dublin, that all the Catholic clergy and hierarchy he_
longed to that Association.—( Hear, hear.) He had tres-

passed too ling upon the time of the Hoube, but h,
could not sit down without observing, that nothing was
mere foreign to his intention, and be should be exceed-