The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-20 00:00:00

ments in the prices paid, on account of their belonging to regard the value of life, or to respect the constituted
to the association. The working classes of that town and lawful authorities of the country. This appeared to
were now getting
their own frames and carrying him to afford an irresistable argument upon the
on work on their own account. Referring to subject. It was clearly the duty of Government to
the pamphlet of Dr. Shuttleworth ; he could not see protect the lives and property
why the Government should have sanctioned the gross and as ignorance tended the render _of
fthe
both life
libel which he found contained in page 20 of the and property unsafe, he was at a loss to conceive how
" Minutes of Education." He stated there that the it could be denied that education belonged to the pro-
object of the Dissenters in their opposition was to vince of Government —(Hear, hear.) It was admitted
advance the interests of particular sects. Now, what he that Government by some means ought to protect the
(Mr. Duncombe) wanted to know was, what objections lives and property of the community. Now, if they
could there be to the motion of which he had given took away education what means were there left. Absoe
notice ? It had been said by the Noble Lord at the lutely none which could be resorted to except in cases of
bead of the Government, that it was a vote of censure, extreme necessity. Take away education, and all that
though he (Mr. Duncombe) did not consider it as such ; was left to th em was military force, gaols, penal settle-
but if the Noble Lord would have it so, let it be taken as ments, gibbets, and tortures. Now if the protection of
such, as it involved a principle which he considered a life and property were the end to which Government
just one. He for one could not consent to the patronage was bound to look, the only wise and effectual means
which was to be conferred on a self-elected body ; and to attain it was, to elevate the moral and intellectual
the increased power which it gave to the Crown. Already character of the people. If Government had the power
the patronage of the Government had been too of inflicting punishment en the poor, who could doubt
ulttyseoe f
med to Governmenthim no proposition
to provide
educe-
much increased. Let them look to the in- that
that creased patronage given them by
the railway tion lf.torwaSthetmhe d
?
board. The local Small Debt Courts had
also could be more plain. The truth was manifest when they
increased their patronage very much. The. judges reflected that had it been acted upon, probably more
which were created, and were to be created, under that than one-half of the population who had been executed
Act, would cause a vast accession to their patronage. for crime might still have been alive—more than one-
It was thus increased to an enormous extent. The new half of the inmates of the gaols might have been at
Board of Health proposed under the Bill just introduced liberty, and more than one-half of the inhabitants of
would give the Ministry more patronage ; and there the penal settlements might have been honourably em-
were also to be four new Bishops, without seats, alal ployed
. on their native soil.—(Cheers.) Looking at the
pointed. These Bishops were to be without seats,
but first report presented to the Committee of Education,
they were to occupy the vacancies as they occurred. In just after a period of insurrection, it appeared that in
addition to this, there was now proposed these pensions the district where the insurrection had taken place there
to schoolmasters and schoolmistresses, which would were about 11,000 children of the age at which children
greatly add to the power of the Government. The pa- were generally educated, but of these about 8,000 were
tronage thus given them would be enormous. It was attending no school at all, while the other 3,000 attended
too great a power to give to any Government, as they schools. these were defective in their system of educe-
could not tell within half a million of money what the tion—filthy to the last degree, and conducted by masters
extent of this grant would be, within the next who stood in the position of ruined tradesmen. In such
twenty years. The Noble Lord had said a great districts as these where the population were suffered to
deal about the unreasonableness of the opposition grow up in this state readily listened to the advice of
but if ho thought so why not refer the whole subject to bad men, who were anxious to excite them to rise
a Select Committee? Why not refer it for investiga- against the constituted authorities. Here was the
tion to a fair, and enlightened, and impartial Committee? manner in which various insurrections were brought
If the Government would not consent to this, it was a about, and what were the means resorted to to put it
proof that there was something in the scheme which down. Having neglected to attend to one means they
would not bear the light of day, and that the real ob- had only one other to adopt, and that was resorting to
ject was to increase the power and influence of the military force. Had the people been educated they
Crown. The result of this scheme, in his opinion, never would have listened to the advice of designing
would be, that instead of a free and an enlightened men, and there would have been no necessity for
people they would have an enslaved and corrupted na the shedding of blood. He said, therefore, that educa-
tion.—(Hear, hear.) He would now conclude by mov- tion was not only part of the functions of Government,
ing the amendment of which he had given notice. but it was the best end to which Government ought to
Lord DUNCAN seconded the motion. He had listened aim for the protection of the lives and property of the
with great attention to the speech of the First Minister of community. When he saw the efforts that were being
the Crown, and he confessed he had been much disap- made in the country against this scheme, and remem-
pointed with the speech. He had expected that the bered that all the great Legislators and moral philoso-
Noble Lord would have made some explanation of the ne- phers of all ages, and the eminent men who were
cessity which there existed of keeping up the Council of generally disposed to restrict the functions of Govern-
selacation which had caused such heart-burniegs in the ment, were in favour of such a plan—when
he remem-
country. He had expected also that the Noble Lord bered that the opinion of all the greatest champions of
would have seen the necessity of including the Catholics civil and religious liberty, and of none more so than of
as well as the Protestants in the grant; but he had been those whose memory were held in the greatest reverence
disappointed. The Noble Lord had made great reference by the non-conformists of England, was in favour of
to what had been done since 1839; whereas, in his (Lord Government education—he really was surprised to see
Duncan's) opinion, that from 1834 to 1839, education the movement that was now going on throughout the
had been in a more flourishing condition than it had country. He was the more surprised when he remem-
been in any former period. He wished to call attention bered Government education was supported by those
to the constitution of the Committee of 1839, because he steunch non-conformists who, in time of Bishop
found that the name of the then Master of the Mint Lied, for the sake of religious erinciple,
(Mr. Labouchere) was now awanting, and further he left their native country for the new world of Massa-
saw that, whereas the commission of that year consisted chusetts, and when they established that State took the
of thirty-nine persons, the commission of this year con- charge of education. In 1642 they passed their first
sisted only of six persons, and these were all Members Act upon that subject, and the preamble recited that
of the Government. He found that in the year 1841, Lord it was a matter of the deepest interest to the State that
Monteagle, who had no connexion with the Government, the poorer class of the community should be educated
but was only a Privy Councillor—he found him sitting under the direction of the State. He had peculiar
on the commission of 1841. Now, if Lord Monteagle, pleasure in referring to such an authority as this, be-
being unconnected with the Government, and but a cause those who followed their religious principles in
Privy Councillor—if he found Lord Menteagle a Mem- the present day were the advocates of the voluntary
ber of that Committee, he should like to know whether system, and, in support of that system, they invariably
any reason existed why the Archbishop of Canterbury, pointed to America, saying, see what the voluntary
or the Duke of Norfolk, or Mr. Fox Maule, or such system has done there I Why the practice of America
sort of persons—(Cheere, ironical cheers, laughter, and in this subject was just the reverse. A national system
the most absolute abandon for a few seconds)—he only of education was the last legacy that Washington left to
meant to say, that all, or any individuals might be the republic of the United States, while Jefferson was
introduced under thie principle, on this Committee.-- ever an advocate of a system of education conducted by
(Continued laughter.) Let the House look at the in- the State. He quoted the authority of Jefferson with
spectors made by this Bill. They had 16 inspectors, peculiar pleasure, because of all the eminent public men
who were paid 13,60(1., being thirteen and a-half that had ever existed in the world he was one of the
of the whole outlay.—(Hear.) Now, he thought that greatest who had ever resisted any increase in the
where this enormous expense was incurred in a mea- functions of Government. Against these authorities only
sure for the benefit of one section of a class, that the one emimrelaaree:could be placed, and the clamour of 1846
House ought to look with jealousy at the whole Bill. against a Government system of education was raised
Looking at the principle involved in the measure, he by those who opposed the wisdom of their former selves.
thought that it was opposed in almost every particular It seemed to be the opinion of them who raised the
to the rule which had guided Government in 1634. But clamour that the proper functions of Government was
who was the originator of this measure ? Let them not always to wait till necessity called for the exercise of
be told at one time that it was the Prime Minister, and military force, and they had nothing to do with resorting
at another time that it was the President of the Council. to means for improving the intellectual and moral cha-
He trusted that this subject would be reconsidered. He ratter of the people. The duty of tile statesman was
did not desire to see himself placed in opposition to the simply to see great towns grow up and provide gaols and
Government, but he trusted that the number of petitions barracks for the correction of the people instead of
presented would have their eftct, and that they would schools for improvement of their minds, and when
not be thrown over to the mercies of the Privy Council. moments of danger arrived they will be wanted
Knowing, as he did that the Right Hon. Bart.,
the Mem- to be at liberty to send down soldiers to mow them down,
her or Tamworth, had opposed a grant of this kind in but he must on no aleount attempt to cultivate or teach
1839, on a highly constitutional ground, he should con- the intellect of the people. The same might be said of
elude by quoting a portion of the speech delivered by the populations of agricultural districts. He meant the
him on that occasion. The Noble Lord quoted a por- incendiary's Torch was at work before the statesman
tion of the speech of Sir Robert Peel, in 1839, and sat could interfere, and he must abstain from all attempts to
down by seconding the motion.
remove the ignorance which might prevail on machinery
Sir ROBERT INGLIS said that it would be in vain, and subjects of that nature. It was difficult to under-
at that moment, to try to create a different organization stand in what way men of undoubted ability and of
in the machinery for giving education to the country. excellent intentions should have become attached to so
He retained this conviction as strongly as ever, that it was strange a theory. The explanation which occurred to
to the Church of England, and Church alone, that the State him was, that be believed a considerable portior of
should delegate this duty ; aria however defective he this theory arose from the operation of a law of whsch
might think this scheme of the Government he would they might trace the operation in many similar ways,
receive it thankfully, if he could not receive it cheer viz., the law of reaction. The country was
fully. It was his own deliberate conviction, that they was just fresh for a great contest with the Government
would not have received so good a measure from any upon the subject of interference in matters of trade,
other section or party in that House.—(" Hear, hear," men's minds were naturally much excited by the pro-
from Mr. Duncombe.) He (Sir R. H. Inglis) had stated cess. Much was said of the advantages of non-inter-
deliberately hie opinion, without any intention of injuring ference, of the advantages of free competition; and some
her Majesty's Government in the eyes of those who had men of great ability and excellent intentions seemed in-
given them so general and so ready a support_(lronical dined, as soon as they had driven the Government from
cheers.) It was asserted that the education given to the a promise which clearly did not belong to them, to drive
population of this country had been generally furnished them from a promise which appeared to be clearly a
by the Dissenters. He denied this. Until within the part of the legislative domain. When he looked into
last century, they had no Dissenters at all—(Hear)— the works which had been wrttten upon the subject, he
at least no Dissenters who assumed to themselves the saw the principles of non-interference clearly laid down.
constitution of an independent church. An Hon. Gen- People were told to remember the power of the min-
tleman spoke of the Lancastrian system, but the Hon. ciples of fair competition, and this argument seemed to
Gentleman ought to remember that the Church imme- pervade the whole of their thoughts, and the writers and
diately introduced an equal if not a better system, that speakers seemed to imagine that if free competition was
of Dr. Bell, which was universally allowed to an im- useful in matters of trade and commerce, it could be no proved method of education. The Hon. Member would less excellent when applied to the education of the peg-
find that all the grammar schools in England had been ple. They seemed to think, that because it was good
founded by gentlemen belonging to the Church of Eng- when applied to corn, it must be sound also when ap-
land, and only within the last few years was a school plied to the school. No analogy could, however, be more
founded by Dissenters. Still he could not but think, that false. Consider for a moment what it was which made
the framers of this measure would find themselves advan- the principle of freedom of trade so excellent. In trade
tsged by going to a constitutional school—(Laughter)--- there could be no doubt but that the producer or dis-
He deeply regretted that he could not give an uncondi- poser of sugar could be able to sell his sugar at a more
tional support to the measures of the Government, but reasonable price than if Government were to turn grocer
yet while saying this he was bound to observe that no end open a grocer's shop in every parish throughout the
new reason had been alleged—no new principle heel country.—(dear, hear.) Why was it so? Because any
been advanced for the scheme which the Goveremeret individual grocer had more interest in adding to the
hadi proposed. All had been made fair and bright, bupublic welfare than any Government could possibly have,
t was evanescent in its character and quite unjustifiabLe If the grocer's prices were above those of his neighbours,
in its principle. The Government appeared to have if the grocer's sugar was worse than that of his rivals, he
acted on the principle of convenience, and according to was ruined; he had no customers; his name
the facts which had transpired there might lie assoon appeared in the Gazdie and his children
present advantage, they were quite ready to avail them- tok refuge the union workhouse.—(Hear, hear.)
selves of it. They adduced the principle offered by the If, however, on the otherhand,werh'
ihbiosusupplr was good, the
national schools, and might attempt to show how sue- prices were as low as his if ho conducted
e
cessful they had been. But they might as well attempt his business properly, and was civil to his customers,
chaiset
to show the principles of the mode of Government witl man would grow rich—he looked forward to
his respect to the tide-waiters.—(Laughter.) It might be and to his country house; and this was the reason why
said that with the advance of 100,0001., there orris the principle of free competition was beneficial in the
a sufficient opportunity for carrying out the whole supply of goods. But there was not the slightest parallel
of the scheme. But he had serious objections, and One in these cases between the freedom of trade in goods and
first of these was to the unscriptural portion of the the education of the people. What class of men could
education plan, and he had serious objections as to how have the same interest, the same strong and pressing in-
far these plans should be carried out. He had serious terest in supplying the poor with good schools as the
objections to the plan as it now stood. He had seriouts grocer had in supplying his customers with good sugar?
objections to an unsanctified education—to that education There were benevolent persons who contributed some
that the guide post sometimes led to the gibbet. If they of their time in order to give education to the poor, and
would give thereturns they wouldshow that education hail they might if they please say that there existed among
Tether increased crime than led from it. By those returns he such persons a kind of benevolence and a competition to
would show that out of 1,000 convictions, against those wh t, do good, but do not let Hon. Members be imposed upon by
were shown to possess, at least, some degree of educe, a mere play upon words, or imagine that such a corn-
tion; 845 were against persons possessing education; anel petition is at all to be compared with that earnest,
145 against without education. He saw, however, ix/ strong, and fierce competition, prompted by the desire
the reign of her Majesty's Government, that there wars for wealth on the one hand, and a dread of ruin on the
a design to waive all minor offences, and with the hope other.—(Hear, hear.) Would it not be strange to
that such would be the case, he would give his cordial say that there was a great deal of benovelence
'vote in support of her Majesty's Government, evinced in this country towards the poor, and
Mr. MACAULAY regretted that he felt any neces.• upon that ground it would be better to abolish the
Beaty to make an observation on the plan of the Go- poor's rates, because the abolition of such rates would
vernment for the education of the people. La give them
more by the payment of poor's rates from
seemed a strange time to moot the question as voluntary contributions. The argument holds equally
-to whether the people were to be educated good in the case of education as in the case of the
'or not, or whether it was the duty of the Government poor's rates. It must appear on a moment's consideration
to provide them with that education. He might that the task of educating the people is
'cite the penal statutes to show that there was upon every ground just such as those with which
no deficiency on the part of the public or of the the Government should interfere. Ha did not know
state, as was well shown by the existence of th n that the duty of Government interference had been
penal statutes. On that subject he could not quote an.), drawn with such clearness by any person as by Mr.
higher authority, or use stronger terms than those oaf Hume.—(Laughter.) He referred to Mr. David Hume,
Adam Smith, and he took Adam Smith's authority the and he had no doubt that the Hon. Member for Mon-
:more readily because it was well known that he rose would perfectly coincide in the opinion he was
'was no advocate for increasing the power of about to quote. After laying down in the strongest
Governments. Now, Adam Smith said there was a mariner the general principles of interfence on the part
difference, and particularly in highly civilised commer- of the Government, Mr. Hume went on to say that, "as
end countries between the education of the higher andi there are certain callings highly useful and necessary to
.ant poorer classes of society. poor, Adam Smith pronounced The education of the► the state, but yet which do not give that degree of ad-
Governments were mostto be a matter in which. vantage to any individual adequate as remuneration for
compared the ignorance haeply concerned ; and he his services, the State must, by means of bribes, by means
lower classes of society v*te. mah prevailed amongst the of distinctions, or by money secure him." If there was a
asle
dreadful disease, which it Iv
anent to check. If he searched 1111.
wilvilisat occurred ill
prosy, or some other calling in the wide world to which this description ap-
duty of the Govern- plied that calling was that of the schoolmaster, whose
select a stronger proof of this than
history he could not business was to teach the poor. This calling was useful.
this country in 1780. There they
of ignorance upon the population. That his calling was necessary for the people no person
One Ted the effect could dispute ;as little could it be, that he cannot and
sand people, at the rumours of a mad
dundmraed thou- does not obtain adequate remuneration without the in-
to overturn the empire, and to make the preden, rose terference of the Government. Here, then. was an ob-
of the Speaker tremble in his chair—to pueirstehr: , -eious reasonable ule laid down by Mr. Hume, and this
House of Lords off their cushions, and make Bisho s -was a case in which the Government was clearly called
Ay over the tiles. (Hear and laughter.) That
yrsvhuiPcha 13Pen to interfere. There was no reason, a priori, to
lierrovee that could application of the principles of non-in •
oeeiarneodtuseueptipoley. thße
upteoleptle
state of things, however laughable it might seem,
the facts.P
jt would not be satisfactory to witness again. At the .ciptieresnrce
twheitHh
oaugsoeoleolopkri
at
to which he alluded, six and thirty fires were
t was the system which had existed in
blazing in different parts of the metropolis, the house , ngland fromhtl
timmemorial ? It had always been
eerference for the purpose of provid-
of the Chief Justice was destroyed, and the Prime i system of hots lint
poor. If,
thf, then, that principle of
Minister's children were carried from the nursery and ing education for th
peop.e might the
principles upon which the
ta.sfully be conducted;
laid on the tables in the Horse Guards. Nothing could free competition reall.
eionntrl,hat it was to a
have been more dreadful than these acts, resulting from education of
result of that
developedeueeeae ine
the ignorance of the population. To the same cause if the vinciple would b© to
they must attribute the riots of Bristol, the disturbances alvstenr of trade, they would have se
of Nottingham, and all the ruthlessness of Capt. Goring, principle as they had seen it
consequence of
and the horrors of the incendiary fires of the agricui- the removal of the restrictions on trade.—(Rear, hear.)
turd districts, and all these dreadful and degrading acts The principle of competition in matters of education
which mere than anything else tended to reduce man to co,uld not, however, have been the one adopted to the
the level of the animal. Could it be possible that such end, viz., general education among the people. It was a
,things as th4e could have taken place in a community principle which had been tried with perfect liberty in the
where the labourer had had his mind improved by edu- richest country under heaven, and in a country the
cation—had been taught to find pleasure in the exercise people of which are considered as intelligent persons,
of Isis intellect—had been taught to reverence his maker ltd cannot be fairly accused of being illiberal. If, then

there ever was a country in which the principle of non-
interference could have worked with effect, and shown its
power, it would have been in this country. The state of
things would have been this—the schools of the country
would have been models, perfect institutions, to be found
in every part of the country ; every school would have
been an example, it would have contained an excellent
little library and mechanical apparatus, the very fact of
such a thing as grown-up persons, who were unable to
read or to write their name, would have been unheard
of. And with respect to the schoolmasters, they would
have been men as expert in the business of imparting
knowledge, and in the management of the minds of
young people, as their cutlers were in making knives,
and as their engineers were in repairing machinery ;
they would have been amply remunerated and their lot
in life would have been respectable, and they would have
been treated with all that respect which the instructors
of the morals and intelligence of the people should ',al-
ways receive. Did they show that they possessed any
of those things at the present time ? Look at all those
authoritative sources of information, the charges of j ridges,
the resolutions of grand juries, and the reports of public
departments which have anything to do with ascertaining
the state of education among the people. Their effect is
the same as those facts already stated by my Noble
Friend. Take the report of the register of the prisons.
In Hertford Gaol and House of Correction there were
700 prisoners, one-half of those were unable to read or
to write. In Maidstone gaol there were 3,000 prisoners,
1,300 of whom were unable to read or to write, and not
more than 50 able to read or to write well. In Cold-
bath-fields there were 8,000 prisoners, but only seven
who could read or write well. Look again at the register
of marriages, of 130,000 couples married in the year
1844, more than 40,000 bridegrooms and 60,000 brides
could not sign their names, but put their marks to the
register.—(Laughter.) Even the education that was
rec-ived in some of the schools was of a most
inferior description. Many of the schodts are mere
dens—a heap of fuel on one side, half a testament, a
dog's-eared spelling-book, a broken slate, and a pen.
And then the master—(Laughter)—and then the master
—where was the high principle, the high spirited, the
heroic devotedness on his part to the improvement of the
pupils committed to his care, many of the men were
merely discarded serving men, ruined tradesmen, many
of them who could not work a rule of three sum, who did
not know whether the earth were a cube or a sphere,
whether Jesusalem was in Asia or America. Those
were the men who could do nothing else, that were ap-
peinted to train the hearts of the rising generation—
(Hear, hear)—and upon whom the "'hole virtue, pros-
perity, and freedom of the country depended.—(Cheers.)
If the House thought he was taking too harsh a view of
the present state of education he would appeal to an
authority which he thought no person could deny—he
would refer to the report of the congregational union
representing the non-conformists of England. Last year,
not quite a year ago, upon the 16th of May, 1846, the
report of the committee of the congregational union for
general education was presented to the union. It was
moved " that the report now read be adopted, and
printed and circulated under the direction of the
board." That motion was made by Edward Baines, jun.,
of Leeds. What he would now read would he thought
be considered as an opinion not to be disputed. "If it
were necessary to expose facts to such an assembly as
this, with respect to the interest of so large a portion of
the population of our towns and rural districts, we could
refer them to the exhibitions in the various localities
by the published documents of the Registrar-General's
reports. Those reports would furnish us with enough
to make us modest in speaking of what has been done for
the humbler classes, and make us ashamed of England,
that the sons of the soil of England should have been so
long neglected, and should present to enlightened
foreigners travelling from other shores such a sad spec-
tacle of neglected mental degradation." He, like Mr.
Baines, most cordially adopted that report. It was in
perfect agreement with all the information he had been
able to obtain upon the subject. He believed that the
state of education among the common people of this
country " ought to make us ashamed at the sad spectacle
presented to the enlightened foreigners who visited our
shores."—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) And now, under
what system had this state of things come to
pass ? Under a system of non-interference—of
free competition—a system which they were told
was just as powerful a stimulus in education as in mat-
ters of trade or commerce. How long had it been in
this state? This morning he received a paper said to
contain " reasons for opposing the educational plan,"
and one of the reasons was if you wait with patience,
private enterprise will do it all. They had been waiting
with patience ever since the time of the Heptarchy.
How long were they still to wait? Till the year 2847
or 3847? Was there ever an experiment tried during
such a length of time with so little effect, and yet these
men called upon them to go on waiting still longer.
The experiment had been tried under the most favour-
able circumstances. They were asked to wait a short
time, and all would be right. He defied them, however,
to point out a single cose in which free competition had
been productive of beneficial results. And as the south
of Britain formed an argument, so did also the northern
part form'another. Now here were two nations of the
same origin, of the same blood, speaking, with a slight
diversity, the same language, separated, at the same
time from the see of Rome in the same generation, and
by the same great reformatory movement, united under
one sovereign, going through the same sours: s of politi-
cal revolutions, united together through a long series of
ages, and yet there now existed great differences be-
tween them. England had been for many ages one of
the richest, most prosperous and civilised nations in the
world ; in all these matters Scotland had been almost at
the bottom'of nations calling themselves civilised. They
(the House) knew that one hundred and fifty or two
hundred years ago Scotland and Scotchmen were words
treated with contempt ; they were considered as words
belonging to a people very far beneath other nations in
civilisation ; and even the greatest of Scottish patriots
seemed all but to despair of ever raising the mental and
moral condition of the lower classes of that country.
See the change that has been effected. In spite of the in-
clemency of the air, or the sterility of its soil, the Scotch-
man has no reason to envy any other part of the world.
Wherever he went, and there were few places he did
not go to—(Laughter)—the same undeviating career of
success was sure to await him. If he enlisted he soon
became a non-commissioned officer, and no matter what
pursuit he applied himself to, the resul;, was successful.
About one hundred years ago it was customary in Eng-
land to speak of them as it was now of the Esquimaux,
but the language of contempt was at an end, that of
esteem took its place. The system of education establshed
in Scotland was one open to many objections not necessary
now to particularize, but imperfect as it was, Scotchmen
rose to such a degree as they never could have done had
education been left to free competition. Well, then, let
them see how the argument stood. Let them observe
what different results followed in the two countries. As
to one—the richer of the two—free competition was al-
lowed to exercise its influence under the most favour-
able circumstances, and the consequences, were pointed
out by the Congregational Union in a report describing
the lamentable ignorance which existed in this country,
and of which all foreigners who visited them were
ashamed. In the other country, which was little fa
voured by nature—one with a very imperfect state of
education—the consequence was such an improvement
in civilisation, such security of life and property,
and such general prosperity, as had been hardly
ever seen in the world before. Now, if these results
had happened in any experiment in surgery or che-
mistry, would it not be conclusive as to the excellence
of the course adopted.—(Hear, hear.) The objections
which had been raised to this question were vanishing
on every side. If the Government had nothing to do
with the education of the people, then all the grants
which had been made were but a waste of money ; but
if they had, then they should not be prepared to forego
the advantages of the system for the sake of one hun-
dred, or even two hundred thousand pounds. Even in
an economical view he considered that it had its recom-
mendations, for when they took into consideration the
money which would be saved in prisons and punishment
of crime, and for the purpose of preserving order and
property, he believed its advantages could not fail to be
appreciated on this score alone. The money, too, could
be expended under the superintendence of the managers
of the school in each locality ; so that the charge of cor-
ruption and political jobbing could not be borne out.
For, in the first place, Government did not appoint the
teachers ; in the second place, they did not dismiss
them ; in the third place, the managers of the schools
were perfectly independent of the Government ; and,
in the fourth place, the salary to the teacher was
entirely contingent on the approval of the managers,
and there was no stun voted in the estimates,
over which such surveillance was exercised. The
result would be that the voluntary system would be
stimulated, because before paying 2,000,0001., 4,000,000/.
would have to be paid by those locally interested in the
schools. He thought, therefore, he had met that part of
the objections with regard to the proposed scheme in-
creasing the influence of the Crown. Then it was
stated that it was unconstitutional, and that Parliament
in adopting it would exceed its functions. He really
wished that those who urged this doctrine had shown
in what way the plan was unconstitutional. Tell him
what principle of the constitution would be violated.
Fifteen or thirty times the Hon. Gentleman the Member
foil, Finsbury, in the course of the speech, urged
that the Committee of the Privy Council was a
self-elected body—a self-constituted body ; and
inquired if the House would place so much
irresponsibility in the hands of such a body ? Why it
was not more a self-elected body than the Board of the
Treasury—it was appointed by her Majesty, under the
advice of her responsible Minister. He confessed that
he was quite at a loss to understand how he could say
that it was a self-elected office any more than that of the
Secretary of State. Then what constitutional principle
was violated? He said they ought to have an Act of
Parliament. True, they required an Ac'.; of Parliament
to give the Crown any power which it did not possess;
but if the Crown possessed the power dealing with
this matter, and the House should vote the money sought,
surely the Crown would not act unconstitutionally in
expending it for the purpose for which it was voted.
Surely these were fair principles—surely they were con-
stitutional. Were they illegal on the part of those who
thought proper to expend their money upon them ?
Might he not give a stipend, out of his own private
resources, to a seise.; almaster—a salary to a stipendiary
monitor, or to a pupil-teacher ? Surely he might do so
without seeking an Act of Parliament to legalise such
a proceeding. The cases were strictly analagous—(Hear.)
Why, the Hon. Gentleman seemed to tall: as if nothing of
the kind had ever occurred before in thi,l country ; for
instance, grants of money had been voted for the mili-
ilam w
mili-
tary
eanstes to
established
h schools, and for the Military Asylum, for granting
aid to which an Act had been passed. When he was
Secretary at War, he found no difficulty in inducing
grante
d for
sumor the
oef moneypurpos
eof for a n
educating
institution
which
the
daughters of soldiers. That was the usual, the constitu-
tional way of giving the Crown money for legal pur-
poses. If the Cro
err), out,wn asked for what it bad no powers to I
they must have "
ve a separate Act: this he thought