The Sun.
London, England, 1812-04-11 00:00:00

SCARCITY OF CRAIN.

Mr. CURWEN, seeing a Right 'Hon. Gentleman
in his place, felt compelled however reluctantly, to
call his attention to a subject of the first national
importance. He said reluctantly, because he ,was
aware that to excite any alarm in fi! country with
respect to provisions, was to incur
,no slight re-
sponsibility ; and nothing but an imperious sense of
duty could induce him to do soon the present occa=
sion. He was persuaded, that the Rtht Hon. Gen-
tleman would do him the justice to acknowledge
that, at the latter end of laSt year, he believed in
Odober, he had stated to the Bight Hon. Gentle-
man,that from the observations which he had bren
enabled to make in an extensive country circuit, it
was his firm convietion, that the crop had been de-
fieient, and that the .e'irliest measures should be
adopted to prevent the evils which might otherwise,
He now again entreated the attention of the
Right Hon. Gentleman to this subject. An alai m-
ing advance had taken place in the price of grain
throughout the island., In various places, and parti-
cularly'in:the county which he had the honour to
repre.ent; this advance liad occasioned very serious
disturbances, in which some lives had already been
lost, and'in which others might possibly be also lost,
if no steps were taken to:remedy the grievance.--
While he..stated this, he must express his belief
that there was still grain sufficient for the neces-
sities of the country.if properly managed; but if
the.same supineness which Government had hitherto
exhibited. with respe'a to the agricultural interest
_were to continue," the greatest evils might arise.
What he most dreaded was, that the price of pain
should become so high as to press severely on the
lower orders of the'people, who ought, if possible,
to be pioteded from such a dreadful calamity. He
calculated ',that twenty weeks must elapse before
any supply of new grain could be expected, and he
thought it possible, by the adoption of a very simple
measure, to saye the consumption of three of'these
20 weeks, which, taken at 200,000 quarters a week,
,-would amount to a savinv, of 600,000 qrs. This
measure was the renewal of the ct t,t -0 Geo. 111.
ch. '6, by which it was provided, that flotir shOuld
be made only of one qmdity, instead of three qua-
lities. Taking the Winchester Bushel at sixty
pounds, the loss by grinding three qu aities of Hour
was not less than nine pounds a bushel. Now, he
apprehended, that by taking out a less quantity of
bran, a flour perfectly wholesome and nutritive
would be obtained, and a saving of five pounds
effected in eve), Winchester Bushel. Therti was
another consideration too, namely, that flour of this
kind would not be applied to any luxurious prepara7
lions, but would be exclusively confined to the mak-
ing of bread ; a circumstance which might justify
the anticipation of saying another week on the
whole consumption. There could be but one feel-
ing in— the f-louse on this most important subject.
It was no-party question ; he had done his duty in
calling the attention of the Right Hen. Gentleman,
and of Parliament, to it, and he trusted that some
.measures would speedily be resorted to, in Lrder to
prevent the dangerous consequences that, might
otherwise ensue.

The CHANbELLOR of the EXCHEQUER bid no
difficulty in admitting- that the Hon,. Gentleman
did, at the close of the. last year, state to him, in the
strongest manner, the apprehensions which' he en-
tertained of an apprOaching scarcity. -But he could
not help thinking, that when the Hon. Gentleman
now allowed, that whatever might be the scantiness
of the last harvest, there was no reason to fear. any
thing like famine, it was notvery candid in him to
talk of the supineness of Government with respect to
the agricultural interest. As far as any criminal su-
pineness, of a date antecedent to the first expressions
of alarm on the part of the Hon. Gentleman, might
be suppo,ed to attach to Government, all he
could say, was, that it certainly was not manifested
in the proposition made to Parliament, to adopt a
measure by which the distiller would have had the
option of chusing the mate' ial from which he would
produce his spirits. This proposition, made by, him-
self (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), was distinct.'
ly rejemed by -Parliament, -how, wisely or net, it
would be presumptive in him to say ; and 'then at the
close of that very year the Hon. Gentleman came
forward with his appreh tn....0i1s of scarcity. At the.
time when those appreln.ns:ons -were expressed, it
was however by no means a genet:illy conceded point
that the haivest had been dele4live. The statement
Made yesterday by the Hon. Gentleman, that if
every acre could be made to produce -two addi-
tional bushels, any fear of scarcity must disappear,
was certainly vety true ; but really unless it were
accompanied by another statement, that an Aa of
Parliament could excite this increased fertility, it ap-
peared to him to be vety useless. With regard to
the present suggestion of the Eton. Gentleman not
haviog-had any notice on the stibjea, it could not
be expeaed them he should be prepared at once to
adopt or to reject it. But, unquestionably, the im-
mediate impression on his mind was adverse to the
proposition ; recolleaing, as he did, that parlia-
mentary regulations on such a subje& had never
produced any other effe& than to occasion mis-
chief instead of benefit , ntid that there was no
greater evil than that which might possibly ac-
crue from any Meddling with the article of
_food
on the part of the Legislature. The very at,
the renewal of Which was advised by the Honour.

abtq Gentleman, had hadly wisp& before the im-
possibility of, carrying it into execution was disco.
vered. Indeed he bad long been fully satisfied of
the fallacy of all attempts of that nature, and there-
fbre tie trusted that the House would not attribute
the -absence of Government from recommending
the adeptior of any measures, or the appointment of
any Committees vn the subject, to inattention, or
an. in4,,spc,sition to resort. to any practical and use-
ful remedy, if sod) could be, discovered, He per
fectly agreed with the Honourable Gentleman, that
this was not a question of patty feeling. High and
low,:rich and poor, must feel a deep concern in it:
It was plainly the in;crest of all to do away an evil
of such magnitude as a scarcity of food, if it could be
accomplished, The consideration of Parliament had
already indeed been so far called to the subiec., as i'ca
induce the suspension of the exportation 'to toteiga

p9rts of spirits distilled from grain in Ireland. 'roe
efficacy of stopping the distillation from grain in Ire'
land was under tile deliberation& Government. This
last was certainly a subjectof much doubt; for were
the legal diStillation put down, an illegal distillatiod-
wonld probably arise, occasioning a great waste ef.
grain and thus diminishing; notthe consumption of
ibat article, but the revenue alone; and though no
ode would for a moment put the preservation of tl
revenue in competition jti point of importance v.i:ll
the preservation of food for the' people, yet if tl
diminution of the revenue were not to be 'accom—

panted by an increase of food, it was evident that
an accumulated pressure would be brought upon the
country, since it would be necessary to provide for
that deficiency of revenue by some increas,d im-
post in another quarter. He gave the Honourable!
Gentleman credit for the best motive Sand the most
patriotic feelings, but he really apprehended-that the
agitation of such topics tended rather to augment tie
evil which it was meant to repress.
Mr. CURwEN entered into a short explanation, in
which he stated, that. by letters which-he bad ghat

morning- received, he learned that corn had risen 30,.
a gOartcr in the county of Cumberland. He gave:
notice that on Monday t:e would move tor au in-
quiry into the state and price of wain.
Galdstnid's Debt Liquidation Bill went through a
Committee, the report Of which was ordered to be
received on Monday. •

• IRISH MILITIA OFFICERS..
Sir J. Nmoar wished to krrow how the Offi-
cers of the Irish Militia were to be released from this
payment of the -Property taxi That 'tax was stin
exaeled from them, and they complained rely hea-
fly of the hardship.
Mr. Secretary, RYDER replied, that mean: for re-
lieving•the Irish Officers from the lur_lier operati.,rt
of the tax were in progress, laud that orders had
been given to refund the sums which they had al-
ready paid.
Sir J. NEWPORT observed, that the Right Hon.
Gentleman had,. many months ago, -pledged
self, M
that this tax should not be exacdfrom the
Officers of the Insh England.
Mr. RYDER denied haVing e“:r gym such. a

pledge.
Sir-J. NEWPORT said, that it W3i tben his Right
Hon. Colleague.
The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER difSClalfflvd

ever having pledged himself, that the °dicers of 11-e
Iri,h Militia should be ielieyed If-nib-the property
tax, but as with telerence to their pay. It had
been some thne in contempla!ion, whether or not i:
was necessary to bring fot,ward a measure, in ord:r
to protect them from paying in this country the. tax; .
to which-they were liable in Ireland.

Mr. W. POLE soled, that the case wai as fol.
lows : Up to. the present period the tax -had been
charged on the pay of these Officers, but from this'
time the pay would be issued to them without any

After a few words from Sir G. HILL and Lord
FOLKESTONE, the conversation (which we cottld,but
imperfectly heal), was dropped. ,
GOLD COIN BILL.
The order of the day having been read (or the,
House to resolve itself into a Committee on the'
Gold Coin Bill, ti
1110 CHANCELLOR of theExcisßoairm moved that.'
the House should then resolve itself into the Cotn •
mittee.
Mr. PARNELL rose to move, as an amendment, to
postpone the further proceedings on the Bill tors
fortnight, with a view to ascertain the sense of the
House on the expediency of appointing a select Com-
mittee to inquire into the state of the current .: its
Ireland. Select Cominittees had been appointed at
various times to inquire into this subject. TaO
repOrt of a Committee appointed in 1794 was, that
the Bank of, Ireland had only 6 or 700,0001. wort ft
of paper in circulation, and that the rate of ex-
change bet Ween Great Britain and Ireland, was
six aed three-quarters, per cent, against the latter.
In the year 1801, another Committee reported that
the Irish Bank paper in circulation had increased to
2,266,0001. and the tate of exchange was tlevent
and one-third i)er cent. against Ireland. In Ja-
nuary 1804, another selea Committee reported tle‘t
the Bank of Ireland had issued paper to the amount
of 2,986,0001. and that the rate of exchange betweco
the twQ countries was 17 and 18 per cent. against
Ireland. It tlMs appeared, that in 1804, the 136nIte
of Ireland paper had suffered a most enormous
predation. The authority by which that faet was
stated wool(' not be 'disputed, when he Men.,
lioned that the Committee consisted of 'Mr. Pitt,
Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Yorke, Mr. Roe, Mr. Long,
Mr. Vansittaft, Mr. Manning, Sir John Sinclair,
Mr. Thornton, and oth,crs. "It was true, that Abe
Exchange between the two countries was now at
par, w hich seemed to imply, that Irish paper bar}
recovered its valor. But let it be recollected, that
in 1804, a pound note and a shilling would pur-,
chase a guinea. If a calculation were, made Orli
the additional sum which was tnAv necessary to
purchase a guinea, the result would show, that tilt,
existing rate of Exchange was at least twenty-five
tier cent, against Ireland. The Bib went to make
Bank paper, depreciated as it was, even more de'
predated than it was in 1804, a legal tender. al.
a measure of such importance, bethought that the
House could not refuse to pause, to give file- Fry',
pie of Ireland, whose interests -w( re so mate-
rially affected by it, every opportunity of defend*
ing- those interests on which the Le!:islanire were
- now called upon to decide. It was said the measure
was found most beneficial in. England; and thee'
fore it ought to he extended to Ireland, in justice r'
the people of that country; but those who said t

k_ t• Tn nst surely be ignorant of the differente betwten-
the circumstances of the landlords of. England and
!hose of Ireland. In England it was common for
- Mild to be. occupied without any lease at all, or to
`be held by short leases. In Ireland, it was altoge-
ther different, as leases were conimOnly let for very
long periods. It was common there for leases to be
granted for three lives, and undvr theae circum-
stances, by the operation of the present mea-
sure; the landlord rrniit suffer greatly in conse-
quence of the depreciation of paper-money, with-
.'e tut any certainty of his having even a chance of
speedily recovering himself. He proceeded at some
length to sfiew the diffeteece between the establish-
'ed usages of England and Ireland with respect to
ii • Paper money, and from the view he took of the sub-
aleel, strongly contended, that Ireland ought to be
'exempted freM the oneration of. the A&. . Two
i*ices had obtained in Ireland, and it had been corn-
bron for rent to be paid in gold, or an allowance
blade, if payment were received
.in paper. ^He.
!.veuld suppose a person entitled to 16001. per an-
.' gumif paid in gold, and that, in consequence of the
L depreciation of paper, if paid' in notes, it was corn-?non for him to be alloWed three shillings and nine-
Pence in the' pound. In such a ease, what would .
b e the effect of this Bill ? Why it would go to
take 3001. a-year out Of 'his pocket. • This A&,
't had beet) said, . was brought in last year
!n sustain the public credit, but in what manner did
It suport public 'Credit it it violated t first rights of
Public proper*ty ? It-it ,was Mu- diced here to pre, -
.vellt the establishing of two prices, it could not
- with such a view he extended to Ireland, as these
two prices bad been long established. It could en- .
swer rio good purpose to extend the measure to fae-
iand• Here it bed been introduced to maintanithe
-"edit of the Bankof England. He would ask the
ght Hon. Gentleman who proposed to place the
Bards vieer 011telatid on a level with that of England,
11:,he had cpaite as much confidence, in the Directors
e.'
),' the Irish Bank es he'aad in those of the Bank of
leigiann ? Public.codit, 'so tar from being support.
tl this Bill, would, in his opinion, be greatly 1
,t4e)i',' ed by it. Under all the circumstances be
e,.."' House c :tild not refuse io accede to the amend-
n'ltt he had` to propose, in older to give" time to
tl" whose' interests were so seriously affected by
ti
'e •
'treasure to guard thoseinterests. lie concluded
si-I: uteving as an amendment, '' That the Howse
I.`lll, on this day fortnight, resolve itself into a Corn-
trtat.:e." •
4 Mt. G. JOHNSTONE thought no one could now
'llY that Bank paper in t his country was depreciated.
le thought it would not be denied that two prices
4cl now obtained in England, and that more
er MY ceininodity might be purchased for one hon.
y,".1 goineas than tor 1051. He then adduced a
4;,,tety of arguments to prove that Batik piper was,
. .
rresent actually depreciated. Assuming this, as
lustt,l Which could not be controverted, he contend-
114e, thst the present Ad event to do that which the
004 t Political writers, Smith, Hume, Lord Liver-
O:s Fee. had stigmatised as nothing less than a_
alld, inasmuch as it weiit to force 163. to be Oaken
ti Patient for a pound. The history of other [la-
at's) and of other banks, pointed mournfully to what
aa,likely,tre -result froth the present system, as he
e,alld see nothiug pt.! uliar in the seteaeer of this
tei,.`,)tta to save it from that fate which they had been
of able to avert. He then took a view of the history
et lII' Batiks of Venice. Hatuburgh, Amsterdam,
`k
ck holm, Russia, and Austria, and thence pro-
eedeo to EiltW the fatal censtqaencesot tee State's
Interference with the concerns of the Bank. lie
text went into the lustot y of the Bank of England,
and described the causes which hail led to the pre-
sent state of things. He wished the Bank Cow-
Pany could be left to themselves, as in that case
they would lessen their issues, till at length their •
notes were equal in value to gold ; but the force of
overnment•was a force which in no country could
t;:e resisted, and lie therefore came to ibis conclu-
sion, horn all he had seen, that the flank would
''''lntinue to gg on in the same way in which it had
ft°ne on so long. Government deceived itself, when
B,esuPPose(.l it could carry on thebuainess of the State
' a less ultimate expense Owl/it would otherwise
Zst tly the expedients now resorted to. What then
i• ere we to do in our present situation ? To return
..• iiillrnediatelv to gold and silver payments, might be
Itt,ended with considerable difficulty and inconve-
- iertee. He thought it would be bettt at once to
raisel;l, the taxes necessary to pay off the 3,000,0001.
nich Parliament and the Ceuntry had borrowed
-unwisely as it now appeared) of the Bank. This
e ought to do, and surely we ought not to say we
141 d not do, while we were able so largely to assist
private
Portugal, and Sicily. He ' thought the
'lvale Banks ought not to be released from the
'°ndition which was imposed On then when
• they were permitted to issue theif one and two
tpound
v notes—that of paying them in money
oen called upon to do so, on pain of being
proceeded against, and their goods and chat-
tels seized by a very summary process. Their
notes in circulation might now amount to
'2'opo,oool. Perhaps his Right Hon. Friend
W, Quid say, would you think it fair to call on them
.
-' a moment's notice to make good so large a sum ?
tie thought it might be myle easy for them to meet
tiero by various expedients, from' several circum-
stancesl whiO he here briefly mentioned; and it was
"I?teovet to be remembered, that they bad long
tenloYed a most valuable boon in the permission they
had received to issue their notes. If the present
"Rill were tg pass, as, far as it affeeted Eng-
land,
still he thought Ireland ought to be left
Slut, and even Scotland he would wish to be
exempt from the Act, as in that case they
flight be of essential service to us, in enabling
vs, to return to a metallic currency. In what he had
said he meant to throw no reflection on the Bank,
(311 Government, or on the Private Banks ; he -only
Mated what were . his opinions on the facts Of the
vase, and from all he had. read in the history ;of
other nations, he felt it impossible to hope, if the
Present system were presisted in, that we should
but
from the , gulph into which we had fallen,
'tot as others Lad done—by utter bankruptcy, and
. the total loss of our national character.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT conceived the measure be-
fore the House to be as reVolutionary a measure
as had ever been passed in the reign of Robea-
Pierre. He contended, that .the depreciation ofPa-
,.P'r Money was most unequivocally established, that
"3 Make it a legal tender was therefore unjust, and
Ill't at all events the motion of his Hon. Friend,
WLich only called for time to inquire into the sub- -
•

- , jet, ought to be accederllo. They had before them
no inquiry into state of the Bank of Ireland, and yet
was proposed to make its notes a legal tender. Was
this dealing out ecetal justice ? What man in that
House would be bold enough to say, he kneW the
state of the Bank of Ireland ? He wished to be un-
derstood as not dOubling, bit if an inquity were ii.l7
stitote,t into' the affairs of the latish Bank, the result
• wouli be satisfactory, but it was not enough that
he believed this; as a Legislator he ought to kabw
it, and he had a right to demand, for the people of
Irel'and, that au inquiry should be made. There,
was a depriciation at present of -ss. 6d. in the auinea,
and who knew but it might go to ios. 6d. ? What
security had the landholders of Ireland to the con-
trary ? The only petition in favour of the measure
before the House, was one presented by the Noble
Lord (Lord Castlereagli) from foul-Score persons,
respectable traders he woad admit, but persons who
he. believed paid snore rent than they received. Per-
haps the Noble Lord might be.liable to the suspi-
cion of favouring airs measure, with a view to elec-
tioneering purposes, with a view of making himself-
mere acceptable to those by whom he was before
driven out of the representation of a certain county: .
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, -he should not detain
the House long. upon the arguments of ib9 flight
Hon. Baronet, as whatever insinuation his speech
might have contained, it did not afford much matter
addressed to the understanding. With" respect to
the measure itself, thee flight Hon. Baronet was as
parsimonious of argument as any person could have
bten Mica occupied the seine time. The original
restriction on the Bank of Ireland was agreed to
withpat inquity, and Parliamant had not teoughr it
necessary to anqn;re into the solvency of the Bank
of England, on the measure of - which this was
the counterpart., He (Lord Castlereagh) had
stated before, that he saw no reason why the
measure of dast year should not be Appliad
generally to Irelaechas well 83 to England; the onlx
difficulty on the sobjeft arose with respect to some
counties in the north, for the laneed ittlereSt of
w!ech he hoped the Right Hon,jßarooet would ti
low that he must be in some degree interested, what-
ever electioneering purposes he might be pleased to
ascribe to him. At all events, .he woulsi act up to
what he conceived 'to be his duty, and endeavour
to relkve the tenantry of Ireland from the intolerable
oppresston,of being c illed upon to supple gold, when
lit yeas impossible for their to Obtain it. He con-
-tended that the depreciation of. Bank paper, so much
talked of, was rn refit negative, and arose from an
increase in the v due of gold; the Committee, he
thought, had taken up an erroneous acid hasty
view of this subject. He did not rest the mea.ute
merely open the Petition, but he, thought tte Pe-
titiOn entitled to some .weight in the discussion' of
the question; for no man who knew any thing of
the North of Ireland, could be ignorant that those
who signed it' were persons of great respeclability.
If the
,!light Hun. B tronet had any arguments to
produce against the question, he, Undoubtedly would
not have been under the necessity of alluding to the
individuals who had signed the Petition, or. to the
motives of any person whose sentiments were. fa-
vourable to the measure., No arguinent, however,
had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet against the
general necessity for which ire contended,
.and in
• which the me:tsure was grounded. ,
Mr. PoNsoNey said, his Right Hon. Friend had
,spoken to the question before the Honse, se le the ,
Noble Lord who had censured Iris view resortad to
other topics titan those. which could come fairly
under their consideration, for the question was not
on the general principle, but whether that principle,
such as it was, should be extended to Ireland. The
Noble Laid had stated that Bank paper Was not de-
preciated, but that gold had risen ; but all the last.
accounts concurred in proving, that the quantity of
&old had increased. of late years in the European
world, and he had never understood it to be a am-
sequence of increased plenty to increase the price.
As to the circumstance. of English and Irish notes
being equal in value, the fact was, that they had
met in depreciation, and it was the nature of the de- .
,preciatioe to go on, which would finally lead to this
state of things, that the tenants would be possessed of
fine estates, while the pour landlords were starving.
If this measure was extended to Ireland, some re-
gulation shodld take place as to the tenures on
which lands were held, anJ contracts to be paid in '
gold, and then what would become of the contracts in
England to be paid in corn, for steely a different
measure of justice could not be aeopted in the two
countries, compelling the one to forego their con-
!rads for payment in gold, and admitting the other
to retain and enforce their contracts to be paid in
corn. The Bank of England, he believed, to he in
as good a elate as any Corporate Body of the kind,
having never entered itito any en gtigements it could
not fulfil ; but inquiry ought to be adopted, in older
to make the generality of the measure less hard.
Mr. W. Pole said, he was glad that time Ho-
nourable Gentleman had brought forward this mo-
tion, b,-.cause it had afforded the Gentlemen on the
other side an opportunity of strewing the nature of
the feelings with which they were actuated towards
the tenantry of Ireland. The whole of the', Ivo-
['lents which they had urged. against the measure,
the objea of which was to put the inhabitants of
both countries upon an equal footing, was, that it
would be unjust to the landlerds, without' once con-
descending to take into their .consideratioa the
grievous situation hi which the tenants would be
placed if they were deprived of that .protection
which Parliament had thought proper to extend to
persons in a similar situation in England. With
respell to what had teen said abort tilt necessity of
an inquiry into the state of-the Bank of Ireland, it
hardly called for an answer, becaut,e the very Gen-
tlemen who called for the inquiry had themselves
most distinctly acknowledged, that it was becauae
they had all admitted, what indeed, it was impos-
sible to deny, that the Bank of Ireland was perfe6t-
ly solvent. No inquiry had been made into the
state of the Bank of England before this measure
was adopted last year; and after the unanimous tes-
timony of the Gentlemen on the other side, he,
could see no reason why a delay should be granted
fpr the purpose of an unnecessary inquiry. But the
real faa was, that though Gentlemen professed to
call for inquiry, the motion was nothing more than
a vehicle fo enable them to deliver their sentiments
at large upon the measure in general. The Right
Honourable Baronet had contended that this mea-
sure was now proposed to be extended to Ireland,
solely on account of the petition which had been
'presented by his Noble Friend, and had.endeavour-

ed to t mince the rfoun that the people of Ireland
in generk*ere not apprehensive of any grievance
because they had not been incinded irl this Bill.—
He begged to assure the Right Honourable Baronet
that he was completely mistaken: The people of

. .
Ireland were anxious to have this Bill extended to

them, and they would (eel themselves very 'hardly
• dealt by if. they, were denied that protedion which
was granted to their fellow subjeas in England.—
%V hen this measure was brought forward last Ses-
sion, he bad. returned: to Ireland to discharge hs
official duties; most of the Irish Members were
also absent; but a representation was then made to
the Government of this country to have it extended
to Ireland. He had in a former discussion stated
this fadt, and his Right Honourable Friend (i-1 r.
Perceval), to whom he had appealed, had confirrns
ed his statement. But were the Honourable
Gentlemen on the other side not aware, was it pus•
stifle that they did not know,that the greatest alarm
was felt inlreland, when it was foundthat the Ad
of lasts Session did not extend to that country ; and
he was sure that if it were now to pass, confined in
its operation to England only, the people of Ireland
would complain, anti justly complain that their in-
terests were negleded, -and that they were deprived
of that protection _which their fellow subjeds in
England enjoyed. The Right Honourable Baronet
had said that this,measPre would create a; great
revolution in property in Ireland as any that had
been effeded in the rime of Robespierre; but he
believtd that, the converse of the proposition was
true, and that amore complete revolution of pro-
perty could not be imagined thin that which would
inevitably follow, if the people of Ireland were
deprived of elite prote&ion- which this measure
was calculated to affld them. The Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman (Mr. Ponsonby) had said
that the tenures hi' Ireland were -very different
•,'rum those in -England, that in the latter
country lands -were •in general upOn.very short
!leases, whereas in the former the leases were %cry
long, and some of them fbr e'er. This statement
was, generally speaking, correl, but he was at a
loss to conceive how it operated against the meastire
now before the House. Seven-eighths of
,the
people of Ireland were paid their rents in notes,
which did not suffer any depreciation, and the land-
lords who received those rents carried on all their
dealings with those notes. But the.feelings,of the
Gentlemen on the-other. side were :tremblingly alive
to the situation of the poor landlord, though they
seemed not to feel at all for the condition of the
tenantry of Ireland, who might, if not included in
the proteoion afforded by this Bill, be compelled to
pay from 20 to 25 per cent. in addition to their
present rents, by -being obliged to pay m gold. soli
was no hardship upon the landlords of Ireland to
receive their rents in notes ; it was not denied that
seven-eighths of them had always received them in
that manner; but it would be a serious hardship
upon the tenants to be obliged to purchase guineas
at-a loss of 20 or 25 per cent. to pay their r-ens.
The Hon. Gentlemen were most anxious to extend
their protedion to the landlords of Ireland, but with
respea to the tenants, the only' protedion they
would extend to them was to leave them _complete-
ly at the .mercy of their landlords. The only re-
lief they would give
.to the tenantry of Ireland was
to gi,e them the choice either of paying in gold at
the loss which be had mentioned, or to quit the
I,inA to „eieh teey were attached, and upon which
they and their families had for years resided. He
- would put the case of a tenant of a farm, fur which
he fined. down his rent,
ppr
eieoarirtialolanvirt:g n Ireland) to 2.501. a year,
!ittidi( 5e 0O
veryl. y
a
would it .not be a serious hardship ireon such a
tenant to be compelled to pay 251. per cent. upon
that remaining rent ? But that ve,e4 -a hardship
to which the Gentlemen on the .other side were .
most anxious to leave him exposed. He vas con-
tending for the tenants, they. for the landlords ;
wished to extend to the tenants of-Ireland the ssme
protect ion which was granted to, those in England;
they wanted to leave them entirely at the mercy of
their landlords. And yet these ,A ere the Gentlemen
who complained that, Parliament did not legislate
equally for the two countries. It was impossible to
conceive a greater perversion of the human under-
standing. He begged, before he sat down, to say
a word about the supposed depreciation of the Bank
'notes. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ponsonby)
had favoured the House with a shoile-of two per-,
sons meeting, by one of them standing still and the
other advancing towards him, and h-ad said that was
the case of English and Irish Bank
.paper ; but
the fad was not so, the Englith notes had not sunk
in value, but the Irish paper had risen to par with it.
The Right Honourable Gentleman had tepre-
settle t the Irish tenants being all rich, and
therefore-it was no hardship to make them pay
.one;-fourth in addition to their present rents,
itr 'order: that the poor landlords might not suf-
fer. But when the Right Honourable Gentle-
man talked of the Irish tenants being rich, did he
recoiled the number of 40s, Freeholders there were
in Ireland who would, if the Right Honourable
Gentleman's arguments prevailed, be the first vic-
tims, and be immediately called upon by the middle
men to pay their rents. From the first moment
this measure' was propos-d, he Was convinced that
it ought to be extended to Ireland, and he had heard
nothing from the' Gentlemen on the other side to
induce him to alter that opinion. He should there-
fore oppose the motion.
Mr. PosrsoNey (in explanation) said, he had
never called the law, which was passed last year in
England, a benefit. He bad not done his judgment
such a violence, and therefore he did not think Ise
was guilty of any inconsistency in disapproving of
its extensieni to Ireland. He wanted the state of
things to remain unchanged. The Right Honour-
able Gentleman had represented hint as an op-
pressor;

Here Mr. W. POLE observed, that the •Right
Honourable G.!ntletnan was nut speaking no order.
The SPEAKER stated, that as the Right. Hon.
Gentleman had said he rose to order, he was bound
to believe him.'

Mr. PoNSoNBY observed, that if the Right Hon.
Gentleman expeMed he should derive any popu-
larity for his conduct, he had no objection to allow
him to enjoy it.
Lord A. HAMILTON contended, that if the Right
Honourable Gentleman's (Mr. W. Pole) argument
was 'good for any thing in favour of the tenant, it
went against 411 the arguments of last year,
,and
that the inetsure conid nut be congdered as in cot

the .same Js the treasure of this country, the dr,
Cum%taices of the tvVci-UOUntries- heing different.
Mr. HEttfinwr spoke hi favour of the measure.

The CHANCELLOR (Af the EXCHEQUER said) •that
as the general question had been so much discussed
on former occasions, there could hatdly be 'much
ground for dispute in the present instance. If
then in Eng'aed, upon a principle of justice, it was
right .to prey, nt a man fro‘m being dragged tope.
son, for not doing what it was impossible that he
could do, it must be right in frelaed. That there
. were parts- of Ireland to which the measure did not
apply in the same manner as its applied, in this
country, he would admit; but to many, and the
greater part, it applied precisely in the same way.
There was, therefore a chotc pf difficulties, whe-
ther they would apply it to the whole. co-entry,- or
not to any part-of it; for how conld-they draw'
line to distinguish and limit its operation ? One ar-
gument had been urbed by his-Hon. Frie-rlbee'
hind hitn (Mr. George Johnston), which he thought
it right to .notice as often as it should be'brought
forward. He had stated that we were proceeding in
the same line of insolvency another countries had
done, where paymems in paper were adopted. If
that was the case, one yenirld expetl that some
trace or symptom of the ealam ty would hay-: shewn-
itself, instead of which they would find the contrary
.was the case ; they would find, that since the Bill
had passed, the number of Bank-notes,' instead of
iticreaslng, had rather diminished; they would find'
also; that the Exchanges had considerably improved:
With Hambutgle they had fallen (torn thirty to
feurteen and a half, while the mischief was going
on;_ and in Paris they had fallen from twenty five
and a half to eighteen and a half. The price of
gold had. also fallen in the course of the present
year. He therefore trusted the House wouhl see
that as to the observations drawn from history, they
did- not apply to the stale of this country, the 1-loud
aid the Bank having proceeded in a manner so dif-
ferent from the instances alluded to, as to leave no
other.leundation for their representations than the
fears that suggested them. He had thefurther
tisfaetion of being enabled to state on the subjed
of the revenue, that in the leading article of ex=
cise, which was the most likely to be affeeled by
the depression of trade, the produce bf this yeas'
amounted to 17,950,0001. that of 'the preceding
year having been 17,399,0001. The amount of
the consolidated taxes' was 61,330,0001. 'and -in
the year 1811, 62,136,0001: He thought it ma-
terial to mention these iaas, with this view, titt
whatever theories others,. and \ his Hon. Friend
among others, might entertain, he had the practice
here to shew that we were going on in a manner
which enabled us to maintain 'our revenue circlet
all difficulties ; if we had tried the theory recome
mend,d, the most it could have done for us would
be to place'us in such a situation ; but If it had
failed,, the disasters would have been incalculable. .
He hoped, from what -had been stated, that the
House perceived no reason why this measure should.
be retarded.

Mr. THouPsoN contended that the. Bank of Eng.
land' ought not to be com Pated to any other bank
ing concern. With resped to the excess in the
sue of Paper, there was not a little of prOof that the
assPrtion was founded in fan; that issue had not the
effed of keeping up the price of gold. As to th*
scarc,ty of gold and silver, it would be obviated, if
our export trade was opened, for he was of opinion
that the wealth of a country did not depend on the
gold and .silver it contained, but on the produce of
her labour ; the encourlg4tnent of our manufa6tores,
by a free export trade, would put
.the country in a
situPtion to defy all the world.
_ _

Mr. MAGENS was of opinion, that. Paper was ma-
terially depreciated. He wished, however, that the
state of the circulation should be put upon Inch a
fo,,tinz, as to give complete security.
Mr. BANKES cold not disregard all the fans which
history discloses as to the mischiefs arising from a:l-
-ing against first principles, and was desOotis to guard
the House against the danger of legislating upon
such principles as the bill is now framed. It was,
he considered, a question deeply interesting,to the
vital interests of the country; but as a measure of
expediency and. necessity, he should not vote
against it.

Mi., STEWART was for extending the bill to Ire•
land. He had conversed with many landlords, and
had never found one inimical to that extension.

The House then divided on the question for tilt+
second leading :

For the amendment
For the original motion
Majority,

27
• 87
-=6o

The House then went into the Committee on
he Bill.

• .
The several clauses were gone through, after
some discbssion, in which Mr. Giles, Mr. Barry, the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Ponsonby, Mr.
Attorney-General,. Mr. Brougham, Mr. Thompson,
Mr. Elliston, &c. participated. •
The duration of the Bill was limited to two\
months after the commencement of the next Sesd
sion of Parliament.

The House having resumed, the Report was or-
dered to be received on Monday.
The Irish Spirits Exportation Suspension Bill wn
read a second time, and ordered to be committed on
Monday.

, The third reading of the Innkeepers' Rates
and the further consideration of the Report of the
Embezzlement Bill, were postponed to Monday.
Mr. W. POLE obtained leave to bring in a Bill,
the better to provide for the Examination and Audit(
of Public Accounts in Ireland•, as also a Bill to -ap-
point Commissioners for auditing Military Accouti s
in Ireland:

Mr. \VALLI& brought up the report of the Com-
mittee appointed to take into consideratiom the.
Affairs of the East India Company.—Ordered to be
printed. . _

Mr, W. POLE brought in the Irish Spirit any
Bill, and the Irish Tobacco Duty Eio.—Rad a ti.rt
rime, and ordered to be read a second time on
Monday.
_ _ _

On the motion of Mr. Secretary RYDER, the
Lords' Amendments to the Local Militia B;11 were
referred to a Selett Committee, toriport on the pro-
priety of their being adopted.
Mr. Secretary RYDER gave notice, that on Tues-
day he would move for leave to bring in a bill ro
amend the Local Militia Laws ac they re..Lted to
Scotland,

At twelve o'clock the House adjourned to Monday.