The Sun.
London, England, 1847-05-18 00:00:00

e,iacation—men whose lives are one professional and
• exercise of philanthropy—have assisted these
in the ears of the Le2islature by ttleir sanction and

4.20 in -7, r:;
tice, clergymen of every religious persuasion. Spriest
ing from such a source, founded on such a basis of feel-
ing and opinion, it has made its way through much dit-
ficalty against powerful opposition, till it has obtained
the sanction of an influential portion of a Cabinet, of a
conclusive majority of the House of Commons, arid, se
supported end recommended, has reached the table of
your Lordships' House. I state there things, my Lords,
not for the purpose of inducing any one of your
Lordships to abdicate your privilege of free discus-
sion or of deliberate judgment. Latest and least
of the importations to your Lordship' House, I
should be sorry to signalise my first endeavour at ad-
dressing your Lordships by proposing any surrender of
Your independence, any infraction of your privileges.
My Lords, the principle of this Bill has been impinged
as involving legislative interference with the rights of
capital and labour. I might slur this objection on the
ground of repeated precedent. I am prepared, however,
1f necessary, to contend that I am advocating nothing
inconsistent with the doctrines of political economy at
all. My Lords, 1 dislike a meddling Government. I
believe with them that for the creation of the greatest
producible wealth in any given community, and, there-
fore, for the widest diffusion of that material well-being
which attends the production of wealth, the policy of
abstinence from legislative meddling is the sound policy,
and, therefore, I think it incumbent on any ona who
departs from that policy to assign distinct grounds for
his justification. The master manufacturer and the
operative have both a right, I admit it, to say to me_
You are interfering with my free action—you are select-
ing mine from a crowd of other occupations, to make it
the subject of experimental legislation. I claim an ex-
planation. I demand an exceptional reason for your
conduct. My Lords, I find that justification, as most of
your Lordships will anticipate, in the inherent, inalien-
able tendencies of that agent which Watt forced into the
service of man as applied to the four great branches of
our textile industry which come under the provisions of
this Bill--I mean the tendency, in the first instance,
to attract to its ministration the labour of those
Whom, in respect of age and sex, or both, nature never
intended for hard and continuous labour ; and next, in
48 tendency to make that labour continuous, and un-
ceasing, and protracted to a limit of physical and
mental endurance which, in my opinion, no Christian
legislature can see its subjects approach without ac-
nowledging the duty of interfering, if it can interfere,
for their relief and protection.—(Hear.) It is ox this
these branches
my Lords, that, finding as I do, with regard to
branches of industry, the means and opportunity
of interference, I claim the right to exercise them. I
34:11Y, mY Lords, finding the means and opportunity, for
18 also is an essential element of practical interference,
used, is,
nay reply to an argument which, though often
;rut is, I think, singularly inconclusive to a course of
who very commonly adopted towards any man
13 is hunting down a particular grievance, and which
other
endeavoursojeettsoofdivert his attention by pointing out fifty
pursuit. My Lords, there is doubtless
enough of abuse, and misery, and oppression in the
fold world to make a sentimental or flighty philanthropist
his arms in despair. My Lords, I invite your
Lordships
to interfere with these large collected ag-
ferieigations of labour, because theory and experience
are ran you can do so with effect—because they
because°n to inspection and capable of control
you can do much to prevent abuse,
and, if
I am the hard necessity arise, to punish it.
aware that this very feature of the case has been
alleged as a reason for non-interference. It has been
said that the factory system la the very department of
Our industry in which
abuse is
oppression are most
o.eiseen overable, and can least escape detection. . We have
repeatedly told that we take an unphilosophical
view of the effects of tl e use of machinery; that it is
labourat dimninisher of the sum of mental and physical
, the fertile source of leisure and contentment, and
that we should be cautious bow we meddle with its ope-
rations. I admit these facts; but I demand your Lord-
ships' attention to some further facts connected with the
employment of that fixed and expensive capital
into the scope and effect of which it becomes a
duty, from %,vhich, as a legislator, I cannot escape,
_s inquire. n
quire. ese is, in my opinion, no grander result
of human intelligence than a large cotton mill; but I
say this of it, that from the moment its engine is started,
raised by the capital and governed by the will of the
acute and enterprising individual who sits in its office, it
becomes the direct interest of that presiding genius that
its motions should be as unceasing and continuous as
stamen contrivance can make them, that there is no part
Of that vast system of wheels and levers which can
rest without loss, or, in the ordinary and average course
ofcommercial prosperity, pursue its motions without
gain. The human labour attached hand and foot to thaf
is systemfor the most part admits not of relays. What
the e natural, the inevitable consequence of this ? Why,
that
.which has resulted—that with which, step by step,
haves'FraeliSan cautiously, effectually, and successfully, you
_been endeavouring for thirty years to moderate
2,1,u control, in wise defiance of the abstract principles
Political economy. That the strong impulse of gain
Placed in direct and dangerous antagonism with the
ellirus of humanity—that it almost invariably prevails
in the
left and hear)—as for a time it was
btizttie'orottenstt")iltfhleft to itself, it reduces a part of your popu-
e condition of slavery, unmitigated by that
does n the
owner
(ocfon the
well-being of the party which
operate
ha e hacker s ) I.
the slave-owner of Carolina, or the
row.—or a hunter in Leicestershire, or Rotten-
to My Lords, such things have been •
prevent them you have' repeatedly interfered and
your labours have net been in vain. Now, my Lords,
does the same reason hold good with other departments of
human industry in which machinery of human contrivance
is less concerned? I say machinery of human contrivance,
for I hold that, in some sense, the earth itself is a ma-
chine, that the clod of the valley, in which you drop
the germ of future vegetation, is as much a machine as
that in which you deposit your portions of raw cotton to
be twisted and elongated. In another place, my Lords, '
I took the liberty, at the risk of some offence, of telling
the lords of the soil that in this point of view I consi-
dered them as master manufacturers, and I re-assert that
opinion here. Your Lordships, in the management oF
hereditary estates which have descended to you from the
Conquest, are working with machinery as well as Mr.
Greg or Mr. Birley ; but, my Lords, there is this dit-
fereace between the machinery of God's contrivance and
that of his creatures. The earth will work alone, in the
silence of night, under the stars of heaven, unlit by your
gas, uufed by your fires, admitting st intervals, which
nature indicates, the regulated assistance of man, taking
him into partnership, but with no direct tendencies to
Make him its slave.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) Such,
my Lords, are the considerations which have induced
nie to overcome the repugnance I individually enter-
tain to meddling with concerns which, from their mag-
nitude and complexity, I dread to approach.—(Cheers.)
Two main objections have been taken to the measure,
two principal and widely distinct consequences have
been held out as certain to ensue. It is said, that by
striking off a twelfth from the time during which, when
employment is rife, you are at present able to labour,
You will either diminish wages or incur defeat from
foreign competition. For the first of these consequences
I have always advised those with whom I had been in
communication to be preared, and I have certainly
aYs received the answepr that, to the best of their
ability,
a they had counted the cost, and were prepared, on
oeuats of
ain themselves and their. families, to encounter it.
..„ not fond of prophesying in matters of this descrip-
t,no, hut if, on the one hand, I am not prepared to risk
the miserable value of my reputation for accuracy on a
calculation of the exact effect upon wages, on the other,
_ any man to favour me with a calculation of the
amount of actual domestic economy which may be
effected by the mother of three children who returns to
r home two hours sooner than at present. I cannot
calculate this, because I cannot sew, I cannot darn, I
cannot wash, and I cannot cook. On these matters I
Must refer your Lordships to your wives and servants.
Still less can I calculate the evanescent quantities, the
moral effects of leisure and repose to the mind, or lay
down in advance statistical results on bodily health or
longevity. I have no doubt whatever that the average
suns total of these elements, if they could be calculated,
Would show a set-off to any probable diminution
of money wages, which will one day be satis-
factory to those who have co-operated in passing.
I
this measure.—(Hear, hear.) On this subject T must
also call your Lordships' attention toanotthi.e e r
work
kumis-
stanee—the deductions now
fmade when
brought in by the operative or waste
and spoil. My
Lords, from such information as I can obtain, it is my
firm belief that nine-tenths of that spoiled work occurs
In the last weary hours of the operative's present ave-
rage toil. I have never met with any man, of any class,
conversant with the subject, who has not laid much
stress on this circumstance. I pass, my Lords, to the
question of foreign competition. I do not profess to
receive with indifference, from men for whose station,
acquirements, and abilities I have profound respect, their
warnings on this subject ; but I am consoled by the re-
flection that no step has been taken in this matter which
has not been preceded by similar warnings of ruin and
similar threats of emigration to those which, I doubt
not, have assailed many of your Lordships as they have
assailed me. And yet, my Lords, I hold in my hand a
paper which shows that England has yet held her own
against the competition of the world, and which leads
me to think that if she is doomed to suffer decay, it will
originate rather in a diminished supply of the raw
material than in any legislation which, for the sake of
the highest interests of humanity, your Lordship may
have consented to adopt. My Lords, I believe that from
a concourse of circumstances peculiar to the character of
this nation, England is in a condition to set an example to
the world in this matter. as she has done in others—that
she is able to do right and fearnot; and more than this, that
her example will be followed, and that foreign statesmen
who may not be disposed to follow it will be pressed by
that influence of public feeling and opinion which is
acting upon ourselves.—(Cheers.) My Lords, in the
course I have taken in accepting the conduct of this Bill
I have undertaken a grave responsibility for its eventual
consequences. Should it prosper to the extent of toy
InVes and expectations, and should I live to see that
result, I reserve to myself, as my sole but all sufficient
reward, the gratification of that spectacle. Popularity
I have not sought, and utterly disclaim. If that reward
should eventually fall clue, it is impossible that the intel-
ligence and justice of the people should not place the
saddle on the right horse. It will be due, in the first
instance, to my Noble Friend—it will be due to the
master manufacturer, who has not allowed himself to be
swayed by considerations which would place his own
interests in seeming, though, as I believe, delssive con-
trasts rasts with thus • of others. It will be due to those who
have
worked through the long hours of this Bill in the
workshop of the Legislature, and not the labourer of the
eleventh hour,
who now begs your Lordahips, pardon
for so long trespassing on your Lordships' attention.—
second reading of the'Bill
fobs rs-) The Noble Earl concluded by moving the

Lord FEVERSHAM said that in seconding the
motion of his Noble 17;•:r1 sat. down.
wished to make 01 L•W
gsnerally, A , ersbl, body the iminstrious o ti
well-disposed operatives, men in favour of this measure,
from a desire nut only to svoid the present severe labour
and its sudden alterations, but from a conviction that it
was a measure which ;mist eventually result in the ad-
vancement of their interest —by their eqalising the
awouut of labour to be distributed amongst them, and
rendering their employment more constant. The ques-
tion of wages was one which had induced many to
' stand forward iu opposition to this measure, who ap-
proved of ins regulations as being likely to benefit the
working classes. It was possible that the rate of
wages might be reduced, but that would be coun-
teracted by the greater certainty of employment.
This Bill had been brought into the other House by a
gentleman who was himself deeply interes:ed in the
manufactures of the country. Mr. Fielding had sped a
long life in the cotton manufacture, and during the
course of that life he had most materially benefited the
working classes, and he had brought forward this men
sure with a view of adding one more benefit to the many
he had conferred upon the working classes. The
opinions of this gentleman were supported by a very
large number of those who were also engagjd in the
various manufactures of the country, and who had
equally the welfare of the operatives in view. The
Noble nerd then proceeded to refer at a considerable
length to documents which showed that from the year 1819
to the present time the provisions of this Bill had been mat-
ter of agitation, not only amongst the class whom it more
insmedit elv• affected, bat in the Houses of Parliament.
and since that time, up to the year 1847, the consumption
of cotton had increased nearly at the rate of 400 per
' cent. In seconding the motion for the second reading
of this Bill, he was not aware of what reception he would
meet with from the House and from her Majesty's Go-
vernment, but he hoped that a measure, which was so
perfectly consonant with all recognised principles of po-
litical economy. and so well calculated to benefit the
working classes, would not be olherwise than favourably
received.
Lord BROUGHAM said that he was very sorry to
.dsturb the unanimity of feeling which had appeared
upon this question during the evening, by an expression
of dissent from the measure before them. He was glad
to see so large an attendance of the Right Reverend Pre-
lates, as this matter was one, in the discussion of which
they ought to be more than usually interested ; and
he trusted that he should be enabled to lay before
them such views of this question as would perhaps
induce them to consider it maturely before giving an
assent to it. The question was not one which was
merely affecting the interests of the manufacturer—it
affected the condition of that great body of men who
laboured for the support of these manufactures, and with
whose condition and labour he had, ever since he had
had the power of reasoning, maintained that they had
no right of interference. There were no mysteries of
political economy in science connected with this ques-
tion, for if any man who had formerly worked twelve
hours a day were restricted to ten, it was nothing but
common sense to believe that suck a step would have
the effect of increasing the price of manufactured com-
modities. He could not too highly deprecate the
conduct of any man who volunteered to meddle with
this vast subject, which effected thirty-seven millions
of the trade of this country, and assure the world
that ho was so confident of is theory that he had
no doubts of its future success. There was no question
which required more caution and slowness of action than
this. It required the deepest and acutest circumspec-
tion to deal with it ; and for any man to dare to assert
that there could be no soundness of the principles of the
measure was really surprising. At the present moment,
the manufacturing districts were overstocked with
labour—they were overwhelmed with an immense body
of destitute children—and their Lordships ought, there-
fore, to be the more cautious in the steps they took
with regard to the intermeddling policy. It must not
be supposed that he was the advocate of the mill.
owner. On the contrary, he was speaking for
those whom the millowner employed—namely, the
labourers ; and on their behalf, and their behalf
alone, he warned their Lordships of the direful
consequences that must. inevitably follow the adoption
of this measure. There was, however, no ground to
justify their Lordships adopting it. True, they had in-
terfered to a moderate extent already, but then that in-
terference was to get rid of a crying evil. Here, how-
ever, there was no such cause to justify the interference.
There were no charges of cruelty brought against the
millowner—there was no overworking of the labourer.
He was satisfied with his present situation, but the pro-
moters of this Bill knew better than he did himself, and
told their Lordships that he was not only overworked
but excessively and cruelly overworked. Their former
interference was in defence of children to prevent their
being unduly employed at night, but the present Bill
was not to protect the labourer but to destroy one-sixth
part of the total manufactures of the country. That
was the real object of the Bill, or at all
events it was ;the direct tendency of the measure, and
he put it to their Lordships whether they were prepared
to strike such a blow at a branch of the trade of the
country, which exported upwards of 70,000,0001. per
annum, and employed upwards of a million of people.
Surely such a step must considerably reduce the wages
of the labourer, and yet it was said that the Bill was
for his protection. For his protection, indeed Why,
he had been told upon the best authority, that if the
steam-engine of S. mill were stopped for repairs, but for
a few hours, it had a considerable effect upon the wages
of the labourer. The labourers in manufactories would
feel every reduction that might be made in the hours of
labour, and by the present Bill the wages would undergo
wagesifthis oufillth weree man
persims
tuesdt
follow. a very material diminution. More than one-sixth also
en
was taken from the master's profits, and if the profits of
the mastersuo w
had t
n away,
wdaoAyt the
but
in they should have ere long to retrace their steps. The
argument of his Noble Friend who had just sat down—
that manufacturers were at present
compelled to work
only six, seven, and ten hours per d
mint at all in favour of the Bill. The ay—was no argu
present distress
in the manufacturing districts was very great, but that
surely was no reason why they shouldenla
per-
petuate it, which would be the effect if
ftzur to
measure became law. " To belay" things, as the sailor
present
termed it, and make no effort to change them for the
better, was not the way to secure the prosperity of the
manufacturing interest ; and he apprehended if
they placed restriction on the hours of labour
they would be only confirming the existence of the
present state of things. He would ask their Lordships
would the Americans, the Dutch, or the Swedes, follow
their example? No, they would not; but the conse-
quence would be that not only those nations but the
French and other continental nations would be stimu-
lated to increased exertion, and would eventually suc-
ceed in driving them from their own markets, and anni-
hilate the manufacturing and commercial superiority of
this country.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the moral
effect of this measure he would observe that poverty and
distress was as fatal to the mental and moral as it was
to the physical condition of the people. Now, by taking
off one-sixth part of the profits of the manufacturers,
there could be no other result than a dimi-
nution of the bodily comforts and circumstances
of the working classes. (Hear, hear.) The
consequence of this would be poverty. And no more
effectual means could be desired to secure the moral
degradation of the people. He certainly did think
there would be much more good sense in an eight
hours' Bill, than one for ten hours. The principle was
the same, and the probability was greater of effecting
the object they had before them. The man who had
worked ten hours was so fatigued as to be unable to
attend to what was intended to enlighten his mind.
—(Hear) He (Lord Brougham) had had experience
of that for twenty-five years, during which he had en-
deavoured to educate the labouring classes, and had been
successfully defeated by sleep.—(Laughter.) But the
most remarkable thing was that all the good was to be
obtained at the sacrifice of one-sixth of the working
man's week's wages. Mr. Arkwright, a gentleman who
possessed four mills in the North Riding of Yorkshire,
having heard that his men were agitating short time,
made a proposal of short time to his workmen. The
first and largest mill decided for the long time ; the
second, by a large majority, chose the long time ; and
the third and fourth decided for the short time. He put
one at least of thus mills on short time, according to their
own election, but they had not been ong under the new
arrangement till they discovered that there was a dimi-
nution of their wages. This was a new fact, and they
re-considered their choice. But there was another au-
thority against this Bill. The House of Commons had
sent up the Bill backed by a majority. In theory it was
to he reckoned the same House of Commons. Well, in
March, 1844, the Twelve Hours Bill was rejected by
a majority of three ; shortly after they rejected
a Ten Hours' Bill by a majority of 7—not the same ma-
jority ; and they would neither have the Ten Hours nor
the Twelve Hours' Bill, and the Eleven Hours even had
not yet been heard of.—(Laughter.) The 3d of May
came, and the Ten Hours' Bill was again rejected by a
good workable majority of 137. But the year 1846 came,
and with a split in the House. The Corn Bill had been
passed, and the land-men',and the wool-men were pitted
one against another. A measure affecting corn had been
carried, and the other party were now determined to turn
against the mills. A short period of three years got a
majority of 108 for the second reading ; such was the
unaccountable change. And was this the time when the
House of Commons should come to such a conclu
aion ; a time when everything was threatening,
and
food riots were occurring in the country ?
Was this a measure to enforce in the present state of
things,
when in our country, the other day, 200 special
constables were sworn in in consequence of the food
riots; when the people,e craving for employment and
food, was this the were
time, upon speculation, upon
shadows, and upon fantasy, to pass a measure which
would curtail the four great and staple manufactures of
England?
Nothing
could injure or curtail manufactures,
or in the slightest way injure ;he;.i, that did not, of ne-
cessity The wool trade was one of the four
that was to be strucke
at by this Bill. 240,000 tons were
grown, and they were about
the labour to cut off one-sixth part of
upon it; and would
not that, of necessity, cut
down a part of the labof the Noble mover and o
u
r.
He had heard the speeches
seconder of this measure, and
by
they were characterised
an absence of all personal
reflection, and therefore
to them, but to less his observations did not apply
wise men elsewhere. A
measure to
be worthy of the sanction and
adoption of the Legislature, and to be
useful must combine
beneficence with benevolence.
The execution of good
it, in order co
as essential as the will to do
designed. There effectuallywere,hb benefit those for whom it was
ard-w b
orked, half-fansisheed admitted, thousands of poor,
h
factories, and they all wishedrnen engaged in the matito
to remedy their sufferings,
convinced but their reason should be
of the efficacy or
the measure they adopted before
should not pass it because theirf they passed it. They
feelings of compassion
were roused without seeing l
c early that that which was

intended. 11,, had himsPir sern the toilA of ti •e, unfor•
offered to them as a remedy would really hare the eff,ct
Inftll. t--;W:.:7;(;i1 111 eati,. tole. T 1 :iat; ,

xieen or sec(

retureing to their homes worn on ej .:.e.
teen hours 01 labour, with gernienis chimed wiiii per-
spiration, without even the comfort of a change of
clothes, or the comfort—to theta a luxury—of fuel. He
had seen these, and was not the condition of the hardest
worked factory labourer to be envied by such men as
these ? Their physical existence was affected, and a
man employed as a farm labourer was at the age of 45
as iutirm as a man of 70 in the upper classes of life; and
if they spoke of unhealthy employment, why did they not
turn their attention to other occupations far inure delete
rious and destructive than that of factory labour. There
were the workers in steel and brass, who lived in an atmos-
phere
they
r filledworked,
with
andthe ti
w
ho filings of
f earlyth e
agesmetals
r olimpnoh diseases whtcit
engendered by it. Why did they not pass such a mea •
sure with regard to them? Why, it would be to them
yw o
dititelf(4l
as it was to the factory labourers, an act of the grossest
and most cruel injustice ; and yet the workers in brass,
from the time of Tubal Cain downwards, were destroyed
by their occupations. It was upon all these grounds,
and with many apologies for having so long detained
them, that he asked them to refuse their assent to the
Bill, and moved that it be read that day six months.
The Bishop of LONDON said that he felt that he
laboured under a great disadvantage in following the
Noble Lord who had just spoken ; but he felt bound to
express to their Lordships his entire concurrence in the
measure which they had then under discussion, and
which had been so ably attacked by the Noble Lord who
had just sat down. Ile gave his assent to the measure
without the smallest feeling of doubt upon his mind
that the grounds upon which it was proposed were
unsafe or unsound.—(Hear, hear.) He was ready
to admit as a general principle, that they should not he-
terfere with the free competition for labour ; but there
were circumstances which might warrant such an inter-
ference, and render it necessary. He thought that it
was the duty of a Government to protect the interests
of any large class of the community when it was likely
to suffer, and to remove, as far as it could, any evils
which pressed upon them unnecessarily. It was with
regard to the large body of children employed on fac-
tory labour, that he thought this measure most parti
cularly deserving of their Lordships' attention. The
physical condition, and the moral condition of the
children were objects to which their attention ought to be
directed in whatever occupation they were engaged.
The Noble Lord had painted to them in glowing colours
the miseries suffered by the agricultural labourer, but
he (the Bishop of London) thought that the picture was
overdrawn. The agricultural labourer could breathe
the pure air, and see the clear light of Heaven, and he
could at any time suspend his toil—even though it were
only for a few minutes—so as to prevent that exhaustion
of strength and spirits which continuous labour would
necessarily entail. The factory labourer, on
the contrary, was shut up in a close factory,
and could not rest for a moment. The ma-
chinery was kept continuously in motion, for a given
number of hours, and a given amount of work was to
be done. This had its natural effect upon the labourer ;
and was marked by the exhausted spirit, the debilitated
frame, and the early death. It was a fact, notorious to
all in the manufacturing districts, the labour caused a
fearfully increased number of deaths. The average du-
ration of human life, in the manufacturing districts,
was ono-half shorter among the factory labourers than
amongst the other operative classes. This was not the
only evil which arose; for, with the children employed,
not only physical weakness, but a want of mental cul-
tivation was the ccnsequence. Before they reached the
age of thirteen, they might, perhaps, be sent to an
evening school ; but after thirteen a double amount of
labour was thrown upon them, and their physical
powers being too much exhausted during the day, to
admit of their attending an evening school, they lost all
that they had learned. It might be argued that this in-
terference would—pro tanto—injure either the working
classes, by reducing their wages, or the property of the
manufacturer. That argument was not borne out by
the facts which had already existed ; for the former
Factory Bill had produced neither any serious di-
minution of the produce of woollen goods, or in
the wages paid to the operative.—(Hear, hear.)
His Noble and Learned Friend had told their Lord-
ships that the adoption of this Bill would considerably
reduce the manufacturing produce of the country. Now
it was a well known fact that from the best and purest
motives a large number of mill-owners had long ago
prescribed the short hour system their own esta-
blishments with the greatest success. Now was that a
sufficient answer to the argument of his Noble and
Learned Friend. In his own humble judgment it was,
for he could not believe that the mill-owner to whom he
had alluded could be so blind to their own interests
as to continue the system they had commenced
if it reduced their trade. Now, the truth was, it had
produced no such effect. It had improved the condition
of their labourers, both in mind and body, and the result
had been that the former productions of their mills had
not been reduced by the disinterested step they had
taken. There could be no doubt that, at the present
moment, the manufacturing interest was suffering from
the severest privations, and yet the labourers employjd
by that interest. were patient and contented under their
sufferings, and he was therefore glad, that in
supporting this measure, Government had showed
that they sympathised with them in their sufferings. In
conclusion, he had only to assure their Lordships that he
believed Ellis measure would add to tie. 'es.iluence of this
country, and improve the sous of toil, and it was upon
that ground he supported it.
The Duke of RICHMOND would not have risen had
it not been for one or two remarks which had fallen from
his Noble and Learned Friend who had addressed their
Lordships at so much length. His Noble and Learned
Friend had told them that the majority of the mill
owners were opposed to this Bill. Now that was not the
case. The mill-owners were supporters of this Bill,
and although he entertained the utmost disrespect
for the mill-owners or the Anti-corn-law League's
support, he cordially agreed with them in supporting
this measure. His Noble and Learned Friend had told
them that an agricultural labourer was not so strong as
any one of their Lordships who had reached the age of
seventy. No*, if his Noble and Learned Friend wished
it, he could produce an agricultural labourer from
Sussex, of forty-five years of age, who would carry any
one of their Lordships upon his back without any diffi-
culty, and in his opinion few Noble Lords could accom•
plish such a feat as that.—(Great laughter.)
Lord CLARENDON felt constrained to oppose this
measure, because he felt that it would oppress and
injure those who were to be benefited by it rather
than improve their condition.—(Hear, hear.) But
he felt that it would not only be attended
with that result, but it would inflict a serious injury
upon the trade of' the country. Besides, there was no
case of cruelty or injustice on the part of the employer
made out for this Bill, and considering that at this
moment the factory labourer did not on the average work
more than eleven hours per day at very easy work, he
thought there was no necessity for their Lordships fur-
ther interfering in the progress of the trade of the
country. There could be no doubt that the Bill, if it
were passed, would materially reduce the manufac-
turing productions of the country, and it must,
therefore, of necessity, reduce trade, and see-
ing that, as in former instances, there was no
crying evil to be put down by the Bill, he could
nat conscientiously give it his support. But be-
fore their Lordships gave their assent to this Bill, it
was their duty to consider what effect it would have
upon other branches of trade than manufacturers. In
the first place, a reduction of the hours of labour, from
twelve to ten hours, would largely reduce the consump-
tion of coal in this country. It would also reduce the
consumption of tallow, wool, and many other similar
articles of manufacturing consumption, besides reducing
the amount of shipping employed by this country. It
was, therefore, almost impossible to calculate the in-
jury
the passing of the Bill would inflict upon this
country. This country did not depend upon the
greater number of hours which her labourers
worked, in competing with the foreigner, but
e
tIhV reduced,eeiiris then,whatdshiifptshane
oswte ortiorokbui nes gl
effected of
at hw aaityt mbsb.yaocuahlnidn
impressionhr ya have
w e
ur
pe
po
nt o
thatob
upon the superiority of her machinery.—(Hear.)
export trade of the country. He, therefore e
im lc redell,
in passing this Bill they improved the condition of the
labourer, because it was clear, that if it reduced the trade
of the country, it must, as a necessary consequence, di-
minish the wages of the manufacturing labourer.
He thought the present time was not favourable for thi,
experiment. He agreed with the Noble and Learned
Lord that the operatives were not favourable to the Bill,
and that they had never asked for it. There were mills
at present working six, eight, and ten hours a day.
and among the manufacturing population, this state of
things was by no means satisfactory. Let them apply
the rule proposed by this Bill to other classes in so-
ciety as well as manufacturing. Let him ask their Lord-
ships how they would like an Act of Parliament com•
pelling them to dispense with the sixth of the labour of
their domestic servants ? What did they think of the
Legislature enforcing them, then, to accept the sixth of
the labour of their own agricultural labourers ? Let him
ask the Noble Duke opposite how he would like such a
proposition ?
The Duke of RICHMOND could see no reasonable
objection to it if the half of the agricultural labourers
died from excessive labour—(Hear, hear.)
The Earl of CLARENDON said that that was an
assumption in which he could not agree with regard to
the manufacturing population. Ho deprecated inter-
ference with the income of the poor man. By
this measure they were interfering with him, and were
inflicting the most serious injury to the working classes
of this country. For these reasons, therefore, he would
record his vote against the measure.
The Bishop of OXFORD would state the reasons
which induced him to give his vote in favour of this
measure before the House. It was contended that the
supporters of this Bill were driving the manufacturers of
the country abroad, and that they were interfering with
the legitimate property of the manufacturers. Now,
how did the case stand ? Why, this very class—the
manufacturers themselves—had, to the extent of two-
thirds of their number, petitioned in favour of the
measure. He denied that the Bill was an interference
with the legitimate profits of business. It was only an
interference with unsound and injurious speculation.—
(Hear, hear.) It was nothing but an assumption
that one-sixth of the income of the working classes
would be taken away by the measure. He himself put
that proposition to some working mechanics, and was
told by them in reply thet that was the argument of my
Lord Brougham.—(Laughter.) But what was their
answer to it, They said that they could not admit its
truth, but even if it was so they could not see their
children up with their bodies wasted and their
even to save that one sixth of their
mins
ligiruor e
e-
d i n g
income.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl told them that
thee exported thirty-seven millions of goods annually,
and that by the present Bill they would be cutting off

one-sixth of that amount. lie thought that the asser-
tion of the two last, hours of th., (late'‹ labour being the

upon

Jit,NO

.OUta Wute uOn. hoUr. Ut profit., taxing as
they did excessively the energies of the poor creatures
who were engaged at those factories, and that they were
rather a drawback than otherwise on the labour of
the rest of the day. Those who knew their own inte-
rests had taken this view of the matter. The Messrs.
Marshall of Leeds, for instance, had cut off one of these
hours, and had reduced the time in their factories to
elev2n hours. In the case of another firm, which had
taken an account of the work done for five weeks before
a ',Auction of the hours of labour, and five weeks after-
wards, it was found that more work had been done cur-
ing the ten hours than during the twelve.—(Hear, hear.)
A measure, the very counterpart of this, had be.ti
brought forward by the late Sir Robert Peel, in 1815,
and from that time to the present it had been agitating
the public mind, and frequent attempts had been wade
to obtain for it the sanction of the Legislature.
They had already made several preliminary steps which
might serve to give them some oxperience of the opera-
tion of the Bill. They had passed a Bill against women
; working in mines. That was against much opposition;
but the result had been with increased good effect, both
I to the women themselves, the subjects of that legislative
measure, and to the masters of those mines. They had
passed a Bill limiting the time to twelve hours in those
very factories, and the result had been so far
beneficial. The result must be good. The want
;of the measure was evinced by dire effects
on the physical and moral condition of the
labourers.—(Hear.) It became then not a question of
wealth or loss. Wealth so gained was unlawfully
gained, and therefore the Legislature could not sanction
it by refusing to interfere. But why were the capitalists
able to impose the amount of labour? That was the
question iif the Noble Earl (Clarendon). He answered,
that the alternative offered them was no work at all?
Long hours or no work—such was the alternative, the
dire alternative, offered to the needy workman, and
could their Lordships doubt which he must choose ?
How, then, if their Lordships did not interfere, were
they to retrieve themselves ?—how, but by com-
bining against their masters. Were their Lord-
ships prepared for that result, and the attendant
evils? Were they prepared to encounter these, or to drive
the stay of the country—tbe labouring classes—from
their shores to a foreign land? On what did their supe-
riority as a manufacturing nation rest ? On these two
things—the security in this country of all vested pro •
perry; and, 2d, the physical strength of the people, and
their patience in attending upon machinery. Were they
prepared to drive the population to that extremity that
the manufacturer should be in dread of seeing his pro-
perty in flames; or to countenance a system which as
certainly reduced their physical strength as it existed,
and thereby to cut off the right hand of their strength
and their greatness ? He trusted their Lordships would
better consider the results of their decision ere they came
to a rote upon the Bill.
Lord BROUGHAM explained.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE—The question before them
now was not a new one. It was important, and it bad
occupied an important space on the attention of the
Legislature ; it had come before them in 1801 ; it had
been taken up again in 1815 ; it was again before Par-
liament in 1831, in 1844, and 1846. During all that
time public opinion had grown ; the votes of the other
House of Parliament and public sentiment had both
progressed, till, when the Bill was before the other
House of Parliament, petitions were presented with
178,000 signatures, while only something like 1,000
were sent in against it. The Noble Lord, who spoke
throughout in a very low tone of voice, concluded by
stating that he would support the Bill.
The Bishop of ST. DAVIDS regretted to rise at that
late hour of the night, or to weaken the effect of the elo-
quent and tender address of the Right Rev. Prelate who
had preceded him. But some things had struck his mind
with great power, and he hoped he might be allowed
shortly to address their Lordships. He agreed with
many things which had fallen from the Noble and
Learned Lord, and yet he felt compelled to give his rote
in support of the motion by the Noble Earl (El-
lesmere). There was one thing which fell from
the Noble and Learned Lord which seemed to hun
have no foundation whereon to rest. He said that this
was a subject on which legislation could not tuterfe-s
Why ? On what did he rest the assertion ? Was
Legislature a body 1€ as free from sinister motives, or more
likely to be moved by a bias ? Did the Nottle and
Learned Lord say so on the authority of what he con-
ceived to be the principles of Political Ecopotny ?
What was the principle of Political Economy ?
Why, that the Legislature should not in-
terfere with free industry. But here lay the
f-dlacy. It was assumed that industry was free.
In going back into the history of the factory system,
they could not deny but that great abuses had existed,
and that many of the manufacturers had not done that
towards the working population which was desirable on
their part to do. No doubt circumstances had done
much to cause them to pursue the course which they
had done ; bat on that very account he thought that in-
terference was required, in order to put an end to the
evils and abuses which existed in the system. In the
course of the present debate, the Noble and Learned
Lord opposite (Lord Brougham) had endeavoured to
alarm them with a fearful picture of what was to follow
if the measure passed—that wages would be reduced,
profits would fall, and general distress overtake the ma
nufacturing districts. Now to that he (the Bishop o
St. David's) would answer, that those who had fully con.
sidered the question, and who well knew the nature of
this branch of industry, declared that this was a
a gross exaggeration, and that the estimate of the evils
apprehended had no foundation whatever in fact. Not
only the most intelligent of the working population, but
Dlany of the greatest manufacturers of the country had
met these objections, and shown that they were falla-
cious and unsound. Though it had been said that this
would be a perilous experiment, he contended that the
peril was all on the side of the system the Bill sought to
amend, and he therefore called on their Lordships to act
on the humane
the greatest number, dthe second reading of
peinciple of the greatest happiness to
an support
the Bill.—(Cheers.)
beware lest by
knowledge of i
measure was, greattahat
Lord ASIIBURTON called on their Lordships to
the bread of injudicious interference they took away
Right Reverend Prelatewerepopulationworking population
pprroohpaebrl eauthorities
. t
oH decide
didnotthe
had to submit to the
had been taken to • would have been glad
inquire more fully into the feelings
and sentiments of the master manufacturers. At the
present time the manufacturingproducer of this country
ported it, but as it did not connthao.
contained a clause for eleven
of things.
The gallery was then cleared for they ought e
ere they aggravated that state Had the Bill
comptehtitrioefnorientoalpl
pause
vote for the amendmentofrheawdouivlideihoaewshulepn-i
the
Noblesuch
anad clause,
Learned
Lord.
there appeared—

For the second reading of the Bill,
Contents
Against the Bill ............................... 11
Majority for the second reading...
—42
Their Lordships then adjourned at a Quarter past
Twelve o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 17.
SCHOOLS OF DESIGN.
Mr. WAKLEY said there was a second question, and
he hoped he should have a more satisfactory ansmec
than to the first. It was with reference to tee school of
design, and he wished to know when the evidence taken
before a Special Committee of the council of the School
of Design, as to the state and management of the school,
is to be presented to the House?
Mr. M. GIBSON said that he regretted that such
dAily had taken place, but ha thought that in ten days
at furthest he might be able to furnish these returns.
Mr. 11. BAILLIE said that he had asked the Govern-
` went the other night, whether it was their intention to
restrict the amount of grain in distilleries until the pre-
sent crisis should be past?
The CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER said
' that the Government did not think it politic on their
part to interfere with the commerce of the country, by
placing any restriction upon one of its most important
channels. lie found that the distillers had stated to the
Government, that they were about to use a large quan-
tity of sugar for the purposes of distillation, and had
requested that several of the preliminary investigations
might be dispensed with. Under his (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) direction, it had been notified that all
the obstacles that could be dispensed with should be
tsce,s whetherof tea, coffee, and other
articlessu e
of ff there was to be
re-
moved, for he considered it exceedingly desirable.
Mr. HUME said that this day week he would put a
question to the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern-
ment, as to whether t was
.his intention to take any
n
any reduction of the duty?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said
he
that the Government had received notice that a lear
similar lar reducing
nature?tplrf o
consi-
derable quantity of molasses was required for distilla•
Lion ; but there had been a consideration of other arti-
cles, with a view to ascertain whether they should re-
duce the duties on other articles mentioned in the Cus-
toms Duties Act, and they had found that although the
importation of the articles hadincreased, the prices had
not been raised. Among those especially y were the arti-
cles of sugar and tea.
ENLISTMENT OF MARINES.
Captain LAYA. RD. moved for returns connected with
the enlistment of ma marines during the last five years.
Mr. EWART wished to know whether the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government had any objection
to lay upon the table of the House the address of the
board of wine-growers, presented a short time back ?
Lord J. RUSSELL replied that there would be n,)
objection whatever.
COLONIAL
.GOVERNMENTS.
Mr. HUME said he wished to ask the Under-Secre-
tary for the Colonies a question, of which he had given
notice. It would be remembered that last session he
presented a petition from Van Diemen's Land, signed by
6,000 persons, praying the House to apply the repre
sentative system of government to that island. Now the
question he wished to ask was, whether Government ha,l
been maturing any plan for extending; the privilege and
rights of representative bodies to that island and the
other colonies ?
Mr. HAWES said, in answer to the question of his
Hononourable Friend, he had to state that the subject
to which he had referred had not been lost sight of.
There was a measure in contemplation—hemight say, in
preparation—with the view to give the benefits of the
British Constitution to the Australian coloniewhie
had generally included Van Diemen's Land.Tle di
not think, however, that the measure could intro-
duced in the present session.

TRANSPORTATION.

Mr. EWART asked the Hon. Gentleman the Seere-
‘ I'o 7: Ha' i; 1.,,. iVkd V in-

t.qttion of revising the present system
a, view alteraliuu Ine law

Mr. HAWES said the subject would shortly come
under discussion in that House, when his Noble Friend
the First Lord of the Treasury would be prepared to
state fully what his intentions were.
CORN RETURNS,

Mr. P. MILES said, in the early part of the session
he moved for certain corn returns in continuation of
those which had been annually laid before the House for
many years past. It was, however, communicated to
him, that an additit,a hq had made to the return would
cause a delay in making the return, and ho intimated to
the corn. inspector that he would not press for that part
of the return. Still, the return was not forthcoming,
and he therefore wished to ask the Hon. Gentleman
(the Vice-President of the Board of Trade) whether
the return would shortly be laid upon the table of the
House ?
Mr. MILNER GIBSON said the order was made
upon the Treasury, and not upon the Board of Trade ;
but. nevertheless, he would make inquiry into the cause
of the delay.
POOR LAWS.
On the order of the day being read for the second
reading of the Poor-law Administration Bill,
Mr. FERRAND asked the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer whether the private defence of the Poor-law
Commissioners to the charges brought against them
before the Andover Union Committee (intitled, " Let-
ters addressed by the Poor-law Commissioners to the
Secretary of State, respecting the transaction of the
business of the Commission, &c., &c., &c.," embellished
with the Royal Arms, and " printed by W. Clowes
and Sons, Stamford-street, for her Majesty's Stationery
Office)," has been printed and circulated with the sanc-
tion of her Majesty's Government ;—if printed and cir-
culated with the sanction of her Majesty's Government,
whether he intends the expense to be defrayed out of
the public purse ;—if printed and circulated at the pub-
lic expense, whether he will lay upon the table of the
House a statement of the expense ? The defence, the
lion. Member asserted, contained most unjust calumnies
and flagrant untruths, and had not only been circulated ,
amongst Members of that House, but had been for-
warded to different tradesmen throughout the country.
He held in his hand, for instance, a copy which had been
sent to a tradesman in Oxford-street.
The CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER said,
with regard to the first question, the Poor-law Commis-
sioners were called upon by his Right Hon. Friend the
Secretary of State for the Home Department to make a
defence in answer to certain inquiries which he had
caused to be instituted into their proceedings, and the
Commissioners made what the Hon. Gentleman called a
private defence, which was comprised in certain letters
which were laid upon the table of the House. He did
not think, therefore, that the defence could be strictly
called a private one. It was certainly true that the let-
ters had been published and circulated by the Commis-
sioners, and it had been done by the consent of the Go-
vernment. With regard to the second question, he cer-
tainly thought the expense ought to be defrayed out of
the public funds, because, in publishing the correspon-
dence, the Commissioners had only to act in conformity
with their usual practice in such matters.
POOR LAW IRELAND.

Mr. P. SCROPE desired to ask the Secretary f.r
Ireland, whether he was prepared to lay upon the
table of the House any statt ment as to the progress of
the system of relief in Ireland under the Temporary
Relief Act Y He also wished to know, whether there
was any compulsory power to compel the Relief Com-
mittee to do their duty, and in cases where they would
not do so, to discharge them and appoint fresh off►cers?
The Honourable Member adverted to a charge made
against Lord Berehaven, that there had been great
destitution on h:s estate, and that he only subscribed
twenty shillings a month, and that he subsequently
withdrew that relief altogether, confining himself for
ten months to the inside of his demesne, the gates of
cafich were strktly lucked. _ _

Mr. LABOUCiiERE said that there would be a
report laid upon the table of the house which would
give his Hon. Friend all the information he desired, ho
was anxious to say that it was no fault of Sir John Bur-
goyne that a great many evils had occurred, it was quite
!sue there was great indispositio❑ on the part of many
►telief Commissioners to aid the Government, and the
people themselves desired to return to the ancient system
read begging. In conclusion he would only say that
from his knowledge of Lord Berehaven, he would not
believe that he had been guilty of such inhumanity as
that stated by the Hon. Member. That Noble Lord had
expressed to him such a concern for the poor in his
neighbpurhood, that he could not come to any other
conclusion.

Mr. SHAW said that he was quite sure that Lord
Berehaven could perfectly clear himself of such a charge.
And on the part of the Irish proprietors, he would say
that the Member for Stroud took advantage in that
House to say things which he could not justify out of it.
Mr. B. OSBORNE said that it was rather hard to
blame the Hon. Member for Stroud for his observations
on the Irish landlords, for such a course was so popular,
that it was not to be wondered at.
WARNER'S EXPERIMENT.
Lord INGESTRE said, with reference to an answer
from a Member of the Government respecting Captai❑
Warner's invention, he would say that he himself was
a witness of the late experiment, and he wholly disagreed
in the unfavourable opinion which was given of it.
NEW POOR-LAW BILL.
Mr. FEHR AND, on the order of the day for the second
reading of the New Poor Law Bill being read, asked
the Law Officers of the Crown, by what authority Par.
liament is invested with the right to delegate to any
person, or body of persons, the power of making rules
and orders which shall be as binding and authoritative
upon the people of England and Wales as an Act of
Parliament ? If Parliament is not thus authorised, by
what statute can the people of England and Wales be
forced to obey, as law, the rules and orders of the Poor-
law Commissioners ? If there be no statute, have not
all parsons committed to prison for disobeying the rules
and orders of the Poor-law Commissioners been illegally
deprived of their liberty?
The ATTORNEY•GENERAL said that Parliament
had an inherent right to delegate its power to any person
or persons in such a manner as should be binding upon
the people. He mentioned courts of law, and other
tribunals, as instances where this power had been
exercised.
Sir JOHN WALSH desired to ask the Member for
Stroud whether he had communicated with Lord Bere-
haven relative to the charge he brought against him.
Mr. P. SCROPE replied that he had not, and that it
was objected to mention anonymous cases. He would
be quite happy if Lord Berehaven was enabled through
hi,t means to justify himself, for the present was not the
first time such charges had been made.