The Sun.
London, England, 1847-06-25 00:00:00

repeal of the existing poor-law ; and as it did not
directly relate to the administration of the law, he could
not consent to its introduction into the Bill. The Hon.
Gentleman seemed to think that the workhouse test was
introduced for the first time by the Act of 1833 ; but he
begged to remind the Hon. Gentleman, that so far back
as 1772, the principle was in operation in the country,
and sanctioned by a Legislative enactment. If the Hon.
Gentleman's clause were adopted, he was afraid it might
have the effect of inducing the labourer to rely more
upon support from the poor-rates than his own exertions,
and that was another reason why he called upon the
House not to agree to it. The Hon. Gentleman, in his
warmth, spoke as if the order of the Poor-law Commis-
sioners, as to the workhouse test, applied to the poor
generally ; but he could assure the Hon. Gentleman
and the House that it only applied to the able-bodied
poar, and not to the aged and infirm. Under these cir-
cumstances, he trusted the House would not think it
necessary to pass the Hon. Gentleman's clause.—(Hear.)
Mr. BANKES said the present rule of the Poor-law
Commission did not apply only to able-bodied persons,
though the order to bo established by the future Com-
missions might ; but the House would bear in mind
that a long interval might elapse before the provisions
of this Bill were carried into effect.
Mr. B. FERRAND said he could state from his
own knowledge that in the vast majority of the
workhouses of this country the test was applied to the
aged and infirm poor as well as to the able-bodied, but
if the rule did not apply to the aged and infirm why
not introduce a clause into the Bill that should remove
all doubt upon the matter?—(Elear, hear.) The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman the Member for Bath had
thrown out some insinuations against him, and he called
upon the lion. and Learned Gentleman if he had any
regard for his own character to speak out boldly and
tell the House what he meant, because he (Mr.
Ferrand) denied that there was any foundation
for the inuendos of the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman. The House would remember that, on a for-
mer occasion, the Hon. and Learned Member sought
for the protection of that House ; and ever since then
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had been making
these attacks with impunity, under the protection of
the House.— (Hear, hear.) He was prepared to give
the name of the medical officer be had mentioned to the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the
Home Department. When that medical officer gave
him information, as to the cruelty and oppression of
the poor-law, he told him that the cost of the drugs he
had to provide for the poor exceeded the salary allowed
him under the rules of the Poor law Commissioners.
—(Hear, hear.) With regard also to the statement
he made as to a woman being starved to death, he was
prepared to give the name of the Coroner to the Right
Hon. Gentleman, and to render him every assistance, if
he were desirous of seeking further information upon the
subject.—(Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Sir C. BURRELL,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER appealed
to those who had acted as guardians to bear him out that
the statement of the Hon. Member for Knaresborough,
that aged persons were forced into workhouses, was un-
founded.—(Hear.) He had acted as a guardian of the
poor for several years—in fact since the law came into
operation, and except under very special circumstances
no person above sixty years of age had, in the union
with which he was connected, been sent into the work-
house against his will. He had, it was true, ordered
persons above sixty to be taken into the workhouse ;
but the special circumstances of each case warranted
him in doing so ; for instance, in order that they might
obtain better care and attendance than they could out of
the workhouse. _

Capt. PECHELL reminded the Right Hon. Baronet
that the report of the Committee on the Andover
Union stated that it was the custom in that union to
make persons seeking relief perform a certain quantity
of labour before they acceded to their request—whether
in the shape of money or food—and that Committee
was of opinion that such a system ought to be abolished,
as it inflicted the utmost hardship upon the poor,
and besides was an objectionable mode of
applying the test. An instance occurred of a man com-
ing a distance of ten miles to seek relief, but he was not
allowed to carry food home to his family until he had
performed a certain quantity of work which had been
assigned to him. He was sure this never was the inten-
tion of the law. _ _

Mr. WAKLEY repeated that old persons were
forced into the workhouses against their will, and that
they were refused relief except in the house. Under the
27th clause of the Poor-law Act, infirm persons incapable
of working who objected to enter the house, were to be
maintained out of it; but in the face of this, old persons
were refused relief except within the walls of the work-
house. He would relate an instance: an old man, wholly
incapable of working for his living, applied to the
guardians of his parish for relief; he was, however, re-
fused, unless he consented to come into the House.
He went before the magistrate, and Mr. Waddington,
the surgeon, afforded him temporary relief. He received
out-door relief from his parish for a week, but at the
expiration of that period, they refused to continue it.
He returned to the magistrate, who told him that they
could not furnish him with any more relief, and that his
remedy was by action against the guardians. This was
one of the cases, which, as soon as her Majesty Govern-
ment became Poor-law Commissioners he intended to
bring before the House.
Mr. CHRISTOPHER said he should support the
amemdment. He said there were instances in which
out-door relief was given to persons who were neither
disabled nor infirm, and who were moreover under the
age of sixty. This showed that one general unvarying
rule could not be applied to all parts of the country,
and that the Poor-law Commissioners and the boards of
guardians should be invested with discretionary power.
—(Hear, hear.) He hoped the Government would take
the whole subject into their serious consideration,
and in the next session remodel the law as he had
pointed out.
Mr. ETWALL said aged persons had been forced
into the Andover workhouse in opposition to the law.

Mr. SPOONED, explained. -
The gallery was then cleared, and the House divided,
when there appeared—
For the clauses
Against them
• Majority against the clauses —72
Lord G. BENTINCK moved that the House de now
adjourn.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought that was most un-
usual. They were near the end of a Bill, which the
House had agreed to read a third time this night. But
there were some amendments to be considered, which
would not take long, and he thought it was most unusual
in the Noble Lord to move, before twelve o'clock, that
the House do now adjourn.
Mr. BANKES reminded the House they were to meet
to-morrow at twelve o'clock.
After a few words from Mr. Henley, Sir G. Grey, and
Mr. Ferrand,

Captain EGERTON said he thought it would be very
unfair to adopt the course recommended by the Noble
Lord, as it would interrupt public business.
Colonel SIBTHORP thought this a very unreasonable
motion.
Lord G. BENTINCK having stated that he would
withdraw his motion.
Mr. BORTHWICK then moved the following clause:
Provided always, and be it enacted, that when any
two persons, being husband and wife, both of whom shall
be above the age of sixty years, shall be received into
any workhouse, in pursuance of the provisions of the
said recited Act or of this Act, or of any. rule, order,
or regulation, of the commissioners appointed by au-
thority of this Act, such two persons shall not be corn-
parate and apart from each other in
o
thought the clause would be produc-
sPt e
vci
sel h ei
ro Gtlive f
workhouse.
very
E separate
great inconvenience, and he could not
accede to it.
Mr. ROEBUCK entreated the Right Hon. Gentle-
man to give way. He was sure that two old persots
who had passed their whole lives together felt the sepa-
ration as most painful.
Sir G. GREY explained that the whole objection
a the dame
Mr. FERRAND and Mr. HUMS hope-
ahreoinsge from the inconvenience in the case of the House
might be passed.
Mr. B. DENISON hoped the clause
as it would give the paupers those advantages
were not entitled to. They must have a right thereby
to claim a room by day and by night
for themselves.t would
whniocthpthaessy,
Mr. BROTHERTON recollected that when he was
an overseer several years ago, he saw an old couple very
needy, whom he asked into the house. Why, said the
old man, my old woman and I have lived together these
forty years, and if we were separated now, it would
break our hearts. He (Mr. Brotherton) thought the
clause ought to pass.
Lord GEORGE BENTINCK was surprised to see
his Hon. Friend who was returned for the West Riding
oyfeaYrsorkshire upon an Anti-Poor law cry, resisting a
proposition for mitigating the severity of the poor-law.
His Hon.
ofa Friendge
were
invariably h e them
relievedthat
out
of abovethe soixrkty-
house. How small then would be the accommodation to
be provided if this clause were agreed to.—(Hear, hear.)
They knew very well that soldiers and their wives lived
together in the same apartment, and therefore he
thought there was not the slightest pretence for resisting
this modification of one of the severities of the law.
w
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he believed the Poor -law
Commissioners had endeavoured to embody the rule
proposed by this clause; but, from the difficulties men-
tioned by the Hon. Gentleman the Member for the West
Riding, it had not been fully carried out. If, however,
it was thought desirable to introduce the matter into
this Bill, he should have no objection to agree to the
clause, provided words were introduced into it to place
the discretion of putting it in force in the hands of the
guardians.
Mr. WAKLEY said the Hon. Gentleman the Member
for the West Riding had given them the declaration of
the chairman of the board, and that afforded the House
a most decisive evidence of the impolicy
of adopting the
suggestion of the Noble Lord. He did earnestly entreat
the Government to agree to this clause without altera-
tion, for he firmly believed that many of the aged poor
had absolutely died of starvation, rather than go into
the workhouse to be separated.
Mr. HENLEY agreed in the view taken of this clause
by the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Salford.
Captain PECHELL did not see any difficulty at all in
carrying out the arrangement proposed by the clause.
Dr. BOWRING thought that it would not be right to
leave this subject in the discretion of the boards of
guardians. It was a point upon which the Legislature
ought to decide.
Mr. P. BORTHWICK hoped that the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government would not object to the clause
as it stood.
Lord J. RUSSELL felt it his duty to propose his
amendment.
Mr. BANKES would be glad to see the Noble Lord
leave the whole question of the poor•law in the discretion
of the boards of guardians.

Mr. ETWALL supported the clause as it originally
stood. _ _ .

Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, when there
appeared—
For the original clause 7O
For the amendment 55
Majority in favour of the clause as
originally proposed —ls
On the motion that the clause be read a third time,

Sir J. PAKINGTON opposed the clause; he did not
anticipate anything but confusion from the operation of
the clause.

Mr. ELLICE supported the clause.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he wished to insert the
words he had proposed, in the clause, in the same sense
in which the existing rules of the Poor-law Commis-
sioners were interpreted. One of the provisions in the
poor-law was to the effect that as it might be
desirable, in some instances, to depart from the rules
laid down for the government of workhouses with re-
spect to married couples, they should be at liberty to
have a sleeping apartment set apart for them specially,
and separate from the other paupers.—(Hear.) He,
therefore, did not wish to throw upon the board of guar-
dians the odious task of making a selection as they
were empowered to make such an order themselves, and to
place it on their minutes, and to send it to the Poor-law
Commissioners for confirmation. He wished to take
away this necessity, but if the clause was to be agree d
to without such a limitation as the one he had
proposed, he was not certain that it would have
the humane effect which those who voted in the
majority seemed to suppose. The Honourable
Gentleman the Member for the West Riding
had stated that the system would become most inconve-
nient where a number of persons were admitted. Then
the guardians were empowered to say they would relieve
them out of the workhouse ; but he was not sure that
that was desirable in every: case. Married Per-
sons, of seventy years of age, without friends
or relations might, for instance, find themselves
more comfortable in a workhouse than out of it—
(Hear, hear)—but when they were admitted those mar-
ried persons might demand a separate apartment. This,
he was afraid, would be the effect of the clause as it
stood ; but he did not think it would be desirable to
take another division upon the clause, in order to amend
it as he had in the first instance pointed out.
Mr. S. WORTLEY did not see the difficulty which
the Noble Lord pointed out, as these aged married per-
sons might be either taken into the house, or have relief
afforded to them out of it.

Lord GEORGE BENTINCK explained that what he
said was that married soldiers slept with their wives in
the barracks. If there was any indecency in the work-
house with which the Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Pakington)
was connected, it must arise from the bad management of
the Hon. Baronet and his colleaguesin their directions ;
he had known instances in which four or five married
couples slept together in one room, in a barrack, and be
never found that they were guilty of any indecency, or
that they violated the rules of decorum.—(Laughter.)
The clause was then read a third time.

On the motion of Mr. ETWALL, the following
clause vi as agreed to:—T►:at all meetings of boards of
guardians be opened to the ratepayers of their respec-
tive unions.

Sir GEORGE GREY said he had no objection to the
insertion of the clause.
Mr. WAKLEY thankei the Right Hon. Baronet for
his ready acquiescence to this clause. The Right Hon.
Baronet-had done more service to the poor by adopting
the clause, than he was probably aware of, and he (Mr.
Wakley) was sure it would be productive of great good.
After a few words from Mr. FERRAND and Mr.
Htnnz the clause was agreed to.
Mr. BANKES moved the insertion of a clause, pro-
viding that all the present rules and orders of the Poor-
law Commissioners should cease after the expiration of
six months, and the same or others adopted upon the re-
sponsibility of the new officers.
Sir G. GREY opposed this clause.
Mr. HUME said he thought it was not right to inter-
fere with the operation of the new commissioners in the
manner proposed.
After a few words from Mr. SPOONER, who sup-
ported the clause,
Lord J. RUSSELL said it was the intention of the
new commissioners immediately to consolidate the exist-
ing orders and rules.
Mr. FERRAND said if that were so, they ought to
know who the new commissioners were. Some time
ought certainly to be named when they should become
responsible for the new rules and orders that might be
issued from the offices of the Poor-law Commissioners.
_ _

Mr. HINLEY thought, with the Hon. Member for
Birmingham, that the House should have some security
for the consolidation of these rules. _ _

The gallery was then cleared, and the House divided
when there appeared—
For the clause 35
Against it 7l
Majority against it —36
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE moved the insertion of a clause
to the effect that the appointment of the President and
Secretary should be vested in the Crown, and the salary
mentioned in the Bill.
After a few words from Sir G. GREY,
The House divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority against it —39
Mr. WAKLEY moved an amendment limiting the
Bill to one year.
Colonel SIBTHORP hoped, if this amendment was
carried, that no salaries would be allowed these com-
missioners during that year.—(Laughter.) Too much
money had been spent already on the poor-law.
Sir GEORGF GREY reminded the House that this
amendment bad already been before them and nega-
tived, and thought it was unnecessary to divide upon it
again.
After a few observations from Mr. HualE and Mr.
SPOONER,
Mr. BUNCOMBE begged to know what the salary
of the president was to be ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
the opportunity for that question would turn up to-
morrow night, when the estimates for the Poor-law
Commissioners would come on with the first vote.
Mr. BANKES said by that time the Bill would-have
passed. It was, therefore, desirous that they should
know now what the salary will be.
After a few words from Mr. FERRAND,
Mr. HUDSON said he would move the adjournment
of the House unless Government would disclose what
would be the probable expense of carrying out this Rill.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the Goverment would:be
prepared to state to-day what the salaries,would be, and
then would be the proper time to discuss them.
Lord Ingestre, Lord G. Bentinck, and Mr. T. bun-
combe contended that the passing of the Bill ought to
be postponed till the salaries are disclosed.
Lord J. RUSSELL said there would be no increase
upon the expense of the present Commission.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion .. 26
Against it 7l
Majority
The Bill was then read a third time, and passed.
THREATENING LETTERS BILL.
This Bill was read a third time.
REMOVAL OF THE POOR.
Mr. BODKIN obtained leave to bring in a Bill to
amend the Act 9 and 10 Vict., c. 66, for amending the
laws relating to the removal of the poor.
The orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Half-past Two o'clock.

FISHMONGERS' AND POULTERERS' INSTITUTION.—
Wednesday
Lord Morpeth laid the foundation-stone of
an asylum for aged and infirm fishmongers and poul-
terers, at Wood-green, near Hornsey. The ceremony
was performed with the usual observances, and was wit-
nessed by a large and respectable assemblage, invited to
celebrate the occasion. A very handsome dejeuner in
celebration of the event was given ins pavilion erected
on the grounds, and the amusements terminated with
_ .

dancing:.
THE EXHIBITION AT WESTMINSTER HALL.—On
Tuesday the public exhibition of the works of art and
oil paintings intended for the ornament of the New Pa-
lace at Westminster was announced to commence on
Monday next, the 28th inst., at 9 o'clock in the morning,
at Westminster Hall.
FALL IN THE PRICE OF BREAD.—Wednesday the
bakers throughout the metropolis reduced the price of
the 41b. loaf one halfpenny. The best bread is now
charged I Id.; second quality, 9d. and 9d. In White-
chapel, the New Cut, Westminster, and other populous
districts, the price is 84d. and Bd. weighed on delivery.
Rye bread, 7d. and 7d. the 41bs.
TAB LATE THOMAS Hoon.—We have much plea-
sure in stating that Lord John Russell has announced
her Majesty's gracious intention of conferring a pension
of 100/. a year upon the children of this highly-gifted
but unfortunate author.

DEATH OF DR. LYNCH.—This distinguished ad-
vocate of sanatory reform expired on Wednesday,athis re-
sidence in Farringdon-street, atjtwo o'clock, of inflamma-
tion of the throat, after a few hours' illness. He was
one of the Common-Councilmen of the ward of Farringdon
Without, and senior surgeon to the West London Union.
Even so late as Saturday last he enjoyed the society of
some of his friends. He was the architect of his own
fortune, and leaving achieved an honourable name, he
died at the early age of 38 years. Through his life he
was the popular and eloquent advocate of progressive
measures for the reformation of abuses both in civil and
commercial affairs. His premature and unexpected death
has caused considerable sensation in the City.
ROYAL SOUTH LONDON FLORICULTURAL SOCIETY.
—Wednesday the second grand miscellaneous flower show
of the season, of the members of the above society, was
held in the Royal Surrey Zoological Gardens. The
weather was very unpropitious, but, notwithstanding, the
grounds were very well attended. The flowers were
very tastefully arranged beneath extensive marquees and
pavilions, and consisted of the most splendid display of
roses, pinks, Cape heaths, tail cacti, pelargoniums,
ranunculuses, calceolarias, orchedaceous plants, specimen
plants, and cut flowers. The fruit and vegetables were
also remarkably fine.
FATAL ACCIDENT ON THE RlVER.—Wednesday
afternoon Mr. Baker held an inquest at the Albion
Tavern, Upper East Smithfield, on view of the body of
James Weller, aged thirty.seven, a boatman in the
employ of the Custom House. On Thursday afternoon,
the 17th instant, the deceased was engaged to row a
female searcher to the James Watt, a steam-vessel, lying
in the river off the St. Katherine Dock Steam Packet
Wharf. He had landed the female on board the vessel,
when, in returning to his boat, he slipped, and struck
his head against the side of the steam-vessel. He was
rendered insensible, and immediately disappeared under
the water. Search was made for l:-in. but he was not
recovered until the following Tues(l,..,. morning, when
his body was discovered by a waterman in the paddle-
wheel of the Shannon steam-vessel, lying off Alderman-
stairs, Upper East Smithfield. The jury returned a
verdict of "Accidental death."