The Sun.
London, England, 1840-07-01 00:00:00

EVEN 11 CT EDITION.

in a manner that was very unwarrantable of the Dissenters i
—it was a ceurse which he would not follow, because he I
thought the example a bad one. Was he aware that he
Dissenters had expended a sum of eight pillions in the
erection ef places for public worship. Now, all those
places were for the purpose of teaching the people reli-
gieus truths ; they annually expended no less a sum than
two millions for religious purposes. They did not come
to the House, and demand a sum from the Consolidated
Fund. Nor did they say that the funds of the Church
were appropriated to the instruction of the whole people,
which was the fact; and that now it did not give instruc-
tion to more than half. They had a right then to com-
plain of the hardship which the Right Hon. Baronet
wanted to throw upon them. The Hon. Baronet had I
spoken of the entity means of the Church. He stated it
at 3,400,0001. He took that from the returns of the
Ecclesiastical Cociamissioaers. They were very inaccu-
rate. Let them look at the returns made by the Tithe
Commissioners, and they would find that the amount was
not less than 5,000,000/. These were very different
sums. It was the richest Church in the world.—( No.)
He eonfcssed he did not know any richer Ecclesiastical
establishment in the world. Why then did they come and
ask the House to take the contributions ef Catholic Ire-
land, of Presh)terian and Dissenting England, for the ex-
tension of that rich Church ? Why put their hands into -
their empty pockets in order to give their money to these
who were so wealthy ? The Hon. Baronet had boasted
much of the petitions which had been presented upon the
subject. Nov he fully believed that not one of Coons had
e% or heen subjected to the ordeal of a public meeting ; they
were all hole and corner petitions ; they were sent from
London to about 10,000 parishes, and only 2,000 had been
returned, with an average of from 60 to 70 signatures. The
Churchmen had had a twelvemonth start of ti e opponents
of the measure, yet their petitions, public petitions,
amounted to nearly as mauy in number, and with
more signatures. Had the First Fruits and Tenths
been al.plied in a proper manner since the days of Queen
Anne, they would have hat enough of Church accommo-
dation is every parish in England.—( Cheers). The mis-
application of that fund had led to all their difficulties.
The Hon. Gentleman quoted from the speech of Lord
Stanley at the late general election, to the effect that
the wealth ef the Church should be so distributed as tee
raise small benefices, and that pluralities ough; to be
abolished, he therefore hoped the Noble Lord would vote
against the motion of the ft ieht Hon. Baronet, as he bad
acknowledged that there was enough of wealth in the
Church to supply the preseut destitution. There was
mother source of revenue; the Church leases might be
made serviceable for extension, as it seemed now settled ;hat
they were nett to made available for the extinction of Church-
raves. Ia the borough of Leeds within the last three er four
years, a seta of no less than 40,000/. had been contributed
towards Church Extension.—( Hear.) That was an ex-
ample that ought to be followed, and then such a demand
es was made by the Right Honourable Baronet would be
unnecessary. Let the House also look at what had been
done in the metropolis in answer to the almost divine call
of the Bishop of London to build fifty churches. He
hoped the Church would go on in such a good work, and
he trusted the Dissenters' exertions would he increased
also, and no call upon the people of so unjust a character
would be rendered necessary. He hoped the house would
pause and consider what was the destitution of the Church
accommodation, and what were the moans of the Church, be-
fore they made so enormous a demand upon a benkrupt Ex-
chequer as 10,000,000/., for that was the amount stetted to be
necessary by that warm Church Extensionist the Rev. B.
Noel—in his lester to the Prime Minister he said, "My
Lord, give us 2,000 churches."—( Hear.) Let the Right
Hon. fisronet so alter his motion as to make it one of in-
quiry into the destitution, and he would support him ; as it
at present stood be must give it his most strenuous opposi-
tion.—( Divide.)
Mr. O'CONNELL could not allow the division to take
piece without entering his strongest protest against the
Motion. He considered it both skulking and audacious.
It was skulking, because the Hon. Baronet refused to tell
them how much of the public money he wanted. All i hat
ha told them was that during a period of 20 }ears the
people of England had had thirty. eight millions thrown
hack to there by the remission of taxation—so that then
they had the maximum of the Right Hon. Baronet, but
were left quite at sea as to what his minimum was to be.
It was bold in any denomination—he would not call them
a sect, because ho was told that that would be offensive—
he would not call then a Church, because that he could
lot do—but it was bold in any persuasion to come before
the country and demand from the public an indefinite sum
of money. At the time of the Reformation the country
was well enough churched. It stood upon good authority
that there were then no fewer than 27,000 churches, some
of them had been allowed to go to ruin, and now the '
Church comes and complains of its own default. The
Right Hon. Baronet had said that the population had in-
creased ; that was an admitted fact ; but so also had the
value of tithes and land —( Cheers.) Whose fault was it,
then, that there was great spiritual destitution? He
charged it upon the Establishment. Was not the speech
ef the Right Honourable Baronet a great triumph
to the enemies of the Church of England ? The
Hon. Member for Pontefract had felt the principle
was so unjust that he proposed to exempt Ireland frees the
increased taxation. Would he agree also to exempt Scot-
land and the Dissenters in England ? It was only last
Monday that he saw a meeting called at the Mansion
House by Lords and Bishops, for the porpoise Cl subscrib-
ing money for foreign mission 3. Now if there were this
miserable destitution in the Church why should not their
exztions be eesfined to home ?—( Hear, hear.) The
Drilionters built their churches and paid their clergymen ;
the Catholics in England did the same ; and without
calling upon the public to support thorn they had lately
doubled the number of the Bishops. Is Ireland they sup-
ported a perfect hierarchy, and that without calling upon
the public for one single sixpence. The Church of Englaml
was infinitely richer than the Church in Ireland. let in
Dahlia alone, within the last fifteen years, 170,0001. had
been collected upon the voluntary principle, and ex-
pended is the erection of places of worship. if they
were not rich enough in ecclesiastical buildings, why did
they not put their hands in their own pockets ?—( Cheers.)
Why wish to put their heads in the pockets of other
people, who did toot believe in the doctrines they taught ?
The • Hen. Baronet had said that France had voted
1.400,0001. for the Church in 1841 ; but he had not stated
the whole case ; that sun covered the expense of all sects,
even to the upholding of the Jewish Synagogue. It also
provided for tee repairs ef the churches and the maintenance
of hospitals, and this wits for a population of 40 millions of
people. They had five millions a inually for a population
ef eight or Ries, millions belonging to the Established
Church, and yet they came to the House calling oat for
e ore money What connection was there between money
and religion ? Would not their Ministers preach with
zeal and fervour unless their pockets were stuffed with
public gold ?—( Hear, bear.) There seemed to be a notion
in the mind of the Right Hon. Baronet that money and
religion were so wedded together, that the latter must
perish if not liberally supplied with the former.—( A
laugh. )—lt had been stated that the Right Hon. Baronet, 1
upon former eccasione, said he would not give 6d. to
maintain a religion, the tenets of which he did
not believe, In that he (Mr. O'Connell) enth sly con-
curred with him. It would be a great injustice to make
the Right Hononrable Baronet to pay the same 6d., but
he would submit to him whether his religion did not teach
him to do unto others as he would be done by.—( Cheers.)
If it were injustice in the case of the Hen. Baronet, would
it not be as unjust in the case of any other individual ? He
joined with the Right Hon. Baronet in protesting against
:he principle of calling upon others to pay for the spread
of those doctrines in which they could net believe. If
there were religious zeal, there would be no want of funds
fZie Church Extension ; and if there were not religious
zeal, there was no use in building churches.—(Cheers.)
Ha protested against the motion, and trusted that the
ilotrie would reject it.
LerdTEIGNMOUTH and Mr. F. MAULE rose to-
gether, and amidst loud cries of '. Adjout le" The former
proceeded to address the House amidst such a noise, as ren-
dered it nearly impossible to hear him in the gallery, Ile
was quite astonished to hear the statements of the Hon.
Member for Leeds.—( Interruption, and cries of " Di.
vide, divide.") He was upon a Committee of Nletrolo•
Titan Heathers for the purpose of providing a site fer the
Royal Exchange, and they, without any ceremony, pro-
posed a tax upon the poor for such a purpose, altheugh
they now objected to an additional grant for building
churches.—( Oh, and cries of " Divide.") By the rc-
turas he held in his hand, it appeared that there was by no
moans sufficient church accommodation in the metro-
politan parishes. In Bethnal-green, which coetaiaed a
population of 70,000, there was only church room for
5,000, while the Dissenters had church room for not less
than 2 000. He thought the statistical details of the
Hon. Member for Leeds had completely failed is esteb•
liaising the positions which he set out with. He would
refer thorn to the state of Scotland, as showing
thegreat '
difference between the two oreestries in that respect. The
Noble Lord proceeded to state some detailsinr reference
to the buildiag of Roman Catholic chapels, but the loud'
and repeated cries of " Adjourn," " Divide," are. rendered
it impossible to catch his concluding observations.
Mr. OSWALD made a few remarks which were quite
of
inaudible, owing to the noise previously in the botii
the House.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL und,intood the whole ques-
tion to be, wh ether ICey should now resolve to go into
a Committee of ene whole Houle in order to move an
address to hats Majesty to grant a cnneidcrable sum of
money to supply the deficiency of religious instruction.
It effeared to him that the imposition of additional bur-
desaMpoe the people, under the present circumstances of
taeavy taxation, would be calculated to excite great irrita-
tion and ill-feeling.—( Hear, hear.) fie thought, also,
that it would by . no means give satisfaction to the
greet bulk of the Dissenters. He did not think that
there was any truth in the auert!on that had been made
that the interests of' the Church were in danger—on the
contrary, he thought at present it stood extremely well with
the people, and that it would not be judicious to introduce
any topics which might be calculated to excite a feeling o
prejudice or dissatisfaction in tho minds of the public
agaiust the estallishrnent. He believed it had been ad-
mitted by the most eminent Church authorities that a
suns of 140,0001. a year might be derived from an im-
proved management of Church leases, and the Archbishop
of Canterbury had given his assent to such a proposition ;
but her Majesty's Government had declined to introduce
such a plan unless with the express condition that the
fund should be applied for the purposes of education.
Viewing all the circumstances to which he had alluded, he
thought the Church would stand in a much better situa-
tion if it did net come upon the means of others, hut re-
sorted to its own. He thought that in adopting the plan
now under consideration they weuld come to a fir better
determination than according to the motion of the Right
Hon. Baronet, Such being his views, he must oppose
the motion of the Hon. Baronet.
Mr. V. STUART rose amidst loud cries of " Divide,
-IVillit " and " Spoke, spoke." The Hon. Member in
..... 4
'vain sealer. 24, p address the House, and finding it int-
et pos i• e i • 14' ht a hearing sat down.
• re, .. en. . e then ordered to withdraw, and the 1
4r:'/'-i lA' * . i, i en there appeared—
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