The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-03 00:00:00

to the notices that should be given, to the forms of claims e
seh-ch should be signed, ani to the questioa whether tee
registration should be annual or quarterly. The Hous,
had already decided in favour of the an; ual registration.
Whether the voter should be so fear protected as that the
objector who niight lying a strong prima facie case against
him, and who should fail in establishing it, should be
euv-
jPC't to costs, was a point to be decided by the House Au
other point which he wished to refer to was the notice pf
objection which he ( Lord Stanley) proposed, and whirl:
was conformable to the English system. The object°,
had merely to say, " I object to your name
on the reWstcr." Tile words were coped from :.'3(
Eeglieh Bill. He did not think he was thus pro-
Posing anything grievous. He did not think that
it was an unfair pro2ositkn that when the objector sough;
to remove a person's name from the regis..ry, he should
eive notice of the objet t'on which he meant to raise. Ile
(Lord Stanley) remembered that Mr. Justice Perrin, then
Mr. Sergeant Perrin, proposed tb-it a double appeal should
be given to the Judge of Assize. There was another power
to which he thought it necessary to refer, not because it
was in his (Lord Stanley's) Bill, but because he under-
stood that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (the Member
for Dublin) had said that lie would oppose the introduction
of that Bill, provided it contained no provision fir de-
fining the franchise. He (Lord Stanley) understood
that before he came down tl the House that Honour-
aide Gentleman had withdrawn his motion, and he stated
that he would move an adjournment. lie (Lord Stanley)
v:ished to state to the House that it was not his intention
to introduce into the B ll any clause to define the Parlia-
mentary franchise in Ireland. Ile stated last year to the
House that he was quite aware of the inconvenience that
would seise from any doubt being thrown on the franchise.
He then also stated that he was fully aware of the diffi•
cultic: which he would have to encounter were he to
mix up the question cf the franchise with the
laws affecting the registration, and upon the
• fullest consider‘Con which he had given to that
question he caner, to the determination that if he
• wished to carry his Bill it was indispensable that he
should separate these two questions, and that course was
in the last Session sanctioned by the Government them-
selves, who introduced not one Bill for the registry and fran-
chise, but one Bill, as his, for the case of registration, and
reserved the franchise fur ddeusder, in a separate Bill. He
bed not only the high authority of Ministers on that sub-
j.:et, but also the audit:6:37..4214e House itself; because
the question-of mixing up th4sregistry and the franchise
was discussed end decided in the House of Cenamoes
during the course of the last Session. The motion had
been made by the lion. and Learned Member for Dublin,
and the House had concurred in his (Lord Stanley's)
view of the case ; her Majesty 'a Ministers, the Noble
Lori the Secretary for the C lunies, and the Noble Lord
the Secretary for Ireland, with the Attorney- General end
many of her Mejssty's Government, voting in the minority',
had approved of the question Lasing kept seperatc,
end the numbers, on the &vision, were 162 and 311,
the latter being the number of those wh:,
thought it inexpedient that these, two Tiestions should be
united together. He was very sensible of the great in-
! converdenee arising from the difference of opinion enter-
' tained by the Judges on the question of the franchise.
Ile regretted that difference, but those who differed from
the majority on the Bence were, he had no doubt, actuated
by conscientious motives. lie (Lord Stanley) Was con
vinced that in the present state of the Huuse
and of parties, if he wished to introduce a clause
which would absolutely debsr him of the possibility of
passing that or any such Bill in the present Session of
Parliament, he had only to introduce a c:ause seeking to
d, flue the franchise in the sen,e in which he took it. lie
was even csrt:in that Gentlemen on the other side of the
House would find it equally impractic-able to introduce a
Bill defining the franchise in any other ssnse than that in
which it bad been hitherto tied- rstood.— ( Hear,
hear.) He confessed lie would flinch from the task.
It would so complicate the measure he was about to intro-
duce, render so intricate that which was sufficiently dif-
ficult in itself, that that Sessioe would pass over like Ile
last, and be a mere •eflux of time, and the undeniable
abuses of the present system would continue one yeer
more, with merely the prospect of the revival of the pre-
sent discussion. He would, therefore, adhere to the de-
termination that he had come to last year, not to insert
any clause of that nature. He would keep the question
separate. He vo..s quite willing and ready to &scuss
all the provisions of that Bill (if he would obtain leave to
introduce it) with all respect to the arguments which
might be brought forward un either side, and to those who
might seek to controvert it by argument, and ready also
to bow to the decision of the House if adverse to him.
Lord MORPETH said his Noble Friend could not
withstand the temptation, although the Government had
given notice of its intention.—( Hear, hear, from Air.
O'Connell, followed by ironical cheers, and laughter from
the Tory benches.) Although her Majesty's Government
had given notice in the very first week of the open-
ing Session to bring forward a Bill on the subject, his
Noble Friend had shown himself so enamoured of that
subject, and so gratified with his reception and his progress
during the course of the last Session—(Ministerial cheers)
—with the several majorities he had obtained, and with
the carrying of twelve clauses in the course of four months
—(Cheers and laughter)—that he had shown himself
determined not to be forestalled, and would have the plea-
sure of having the first word on the subject. He was not at
all disposed to dispute that priority, and he was not will-
ing, atter the very temperate and moderate manner in which
his Noble Friend had brought forward the subject—
(" Hear, hear," from the Tory benches)—he was not
willing to fell in courtesy with his Noble Friend any more
than to any other Honourable Member, because certainly
in the course of last Session his Noble Friend had ob-
tained very important success and over whelmirig plaudits,
and ho was not therefore disposed to offer any opposition
to his motion for leave to bring in the Bill_(Hear, hear)
—not doubting that the Noble Lord, arid those who sup-
ported him, would extend the same accommodation to him
(Lord Morpeth) when lie moved for leave to bring in the
measure of the Government.—(" Hear, hear," from the
Opposition benches.) Having thus stated the course he
intended to pursue, and considering that on that occasion
he should have a fall opportunity of explaining the views
of Government on the subject of the registration
of voters in Ireland, he did not feel himself called
on to make any lengthened observations on the
subject.—( Hem., hear.) There were only two things
he should state, for the sake of obviating any misappre-
hension. From the statements of the Noble Lord he col-
lected, that although he admitted of some slight modifi-
catiens, yet that the main principles and provisions of the
13111 remained unaltered; that he still retained the annual
revision even upon the points that might be decided once
a year; and that upon points which bad been annually
decked the voters were liable to be annually called up ;
that he still retained the appeal both ways to the Judge of
Assize against as well as in favour of the franchise ;
and the Noble Lord fortified himself with a consistency of
opinion in these particulars eith the Ulster Aesociation,
the report of whose proceedings he largely quoted from.
He (Lord M.) imagined that upon a close examination of
the details of the plans recommended by the Noble Lard
and the Ulster Association, there would be by no means
found that similarity of views upoe which his Noble Friend
reckoned —( Hear, Lear.) The Association of Ulster did
not recommend an appeal both ways in matters of fact,
and they did not recommend it without settling and
defining the franchise. However if the Noble
Lord wag inclined to take the regulations
of that Association, there would be the less ground of dif-
ference. However that might be in conformity with the
notice that had been given, he should ask the House to
concur in a Bill to amend the laws regarding the quelifi-
hation as well as the t egistration of voters in Leland, ;end
he hoped on that occasion to be able to show the hitillw
and his Noble Fiiend, that in perfect consistency with eiery
thing that had been done and said before on that branch of
the subject—that it would not be expedient to effect-harry
material alteration in the present system of registration,
such as the Noble Lord would recommend, nor anything
involving the constitution of a new appellate jurisdiction,
without first explaining and defining the franchise. Guard.
ing himself upon these two points, he should offer no fur-
ther opposition to the motion of the Noble Lord, while he
reserved to himself and his colleagues the right of future
action upon all the future stages of the Bill.--( Hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL considered himself by no means
bound by any compromise between the Noble Lords on
both sides of the House.—( Hear, hear.) He did not in
the least stand there belonging to any party on the ques-
tion—he stood there on behalf of the people of Irelansi
( Ironical cheers.) The House and the country might
naturally feel somewhat surprised at the fact, if it vt
not too manifest, that the Noble Lord, in a prepared spe. fi
made with great deliberation, and making out the
strongest case for himself, and in order, as lie said, to
put an end to the multiplication of fictitious votes in Ire-
land (for that was his object), had omitted to give
the House some idea of what the number of
these fraudulent voters was.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He
did not tske up the statistics of Ireland, and say here arc
100,000 inhabitants with 23, or 10, or four thousand voters,
constituting an overwhelming number of voters claiming the
franchise in proportion to the aggregate number of the
people. That would be a fair way of investigating the
question. Why did he not take Cork, and say here are
713:000 inhabitants, and tell the House how many voters
were registered in the county ? Why, there were but
3,801) voters on the register, and the utmost of them that
could vote were 3,600. Why had he not celled upon the
House to remedy that? It was overwhelming, it was over-
powering, there must be fraud, there must be
" villainous perjury," for that was the phrase of last Ses-
sion —( Loud tries of " Oh, oh," from the Tory benches.)
Perhaps the Noble Lord did not say it, but somebody said
it for him.—(oh, oh, and laughter.) What was meant
by those interruptions ?—( Hear, hear.) He had " beastly
bellowings" last year, perhaps they would be renewed in
the present Session. He was showing the country and the
House what it was that called for the vigilenee of the
Noble Lord. Cork had a phpulation of 713,000, and the
rural population of Wales was 710,000; the latter had
30,000 voters, while Cork, with the greater number of in-
habitants, had not more than 3,800; yet that was the
apt: cm that required to be watched over. The Irish, it
appeared, had too many votes. Let them contrast it with
the English representation. and then tell him if that were
equal justice. The sole thought of the Noble Lord by
day and his dream by night when he was in office,
ended in the miserable abortion by which he bad
swindled the people of Ireland cut of their votes by the
kind of franchise he gave them. He was the author—it
was he that brought in the 8.11. He was required to
give the people of Ireland the English mode of registry,
and that was tt hat he gave them, and it had even worked
badly, because the franchise had not been defined. He
( Mr. O'Connell) would not aliow that Bill to come be-
fore that House without exposing its hollowness and
mockery, and the paucity of voters in Ireland as compared
with that of England. By the returns that had been
laid upon the table of the House, it appeared that in the
registration of 1832 the number of voters in Ireland was
net 5 per cent of the male adult population, while
in England it was full 20 per cent., and when they had the
returns of the lest registry from. Ir land, it would be round
there a dirniitttion of cell 'feast,, cod a note le- .
man who was well acquainted
formoi 11.110 that it would Le nearer Zit; per -cent. The
Noble Lord's measure was a mockery, and was far mere

distinguished for cunning than for fairness. Notice bade
been given by the Government for a to amend tne,
registration of voters, which would have been introeueueln
en the previous night but for tho accident of therefor` g.
13e:
4noh
the
ea cNel
oablltehoLu
Latching fur him, and togorhod
noticekbacda care
seomt
oheaarndet
cpbiepeceatn:ebgiteihvagetne
nmtioet;;
Why not give the Government an opportunity of bilog"'h
pose ? Oh, no, the Noble Lord had his pocket pisi pur-
th a '
ferward its measure, which might have answered the
the Ulster Constitutional Association, who little 'be
fee total want of candour with which they were tOl
Ca
He thought it highly improper to have that wh,..106a0
brought forward in such a manner, and that the 1-1 'i •
was entitled to have that Government measure bore
previously to the Noble Lord asking for leave to bringth',
his Biil. If he were disposed to feel any sorrow at. 5.!
teultittsclineus attendance of that night, or to congratina....ht
the Noble Lord on the enthusiasm of his foliowers.
(Loud Opposition cheers.) He was glad he gad prole
yoked that shout, for it would show the
PeUN
of Ireland, how little they had to expect from that fl39!ea,
—( Ironical deem s.) Whatever became of them
must rely upon themselves and their own exertions, he.l
every act and exhibition of enmity to that peoples an
every attempt to lessen their franchise was a hew ergti,
eta
ment to those who thought that the connection hew
the two countries was not on a basis of justice odei34;
which ought to be permanent.—( Cheers from the h
Members.) He thought the House should pause, aldwuto
he feared it would not, and not allow allow the Bill to ,
brought in before the measure of the o,cer ;
:font was on the table. Protesting Win" gen
vexation of the Noble Lord's Bill—demanding Inn
the House, it there were any bond of unT
that they should have the benefit of it, and without
p roost 0
into the details of the measure, he must enter his ,
against a plan which gave them the worst part of. taptt
English system of registration. If they meant to bto
the people of both countries, and of Ireland especiallrh
consider the Union as binding, they must give them kinigt;
lel) rights and liberties.—( Cheers.) Let them noltig,
the people of Ireland the Noble Lord's vexatious ref, for
Lion. Why had not the .Noble Lord brought in a 131110 i ?
England when the s)stcm was so much conipleined
Ile cted not to amended registration, hut to the ohce'r..
the Noble Lord, which was to aim a blow at the(ll
ties of Irelan I ; and being determined to meet
foot, he should now move that the debate be adjourns
afte the 4th instant.
Mr. HUME seconded the motion,
Mr. S. O'BRIEN said there was nothing in The rost:etc;
ment of the Noble Lord that surprised him. The
Lord had last year stated that he had no political or P'id
vices whatever in bringing forward the measure,
b"ro't
jet
.he had taken the very first opportunity, wit °a,
waiting to ace what the measure of the Government
and bad evinced his determination to make the q„,jet
Lion a regular party struggle. Although the Gover"-acto
bad at tee very earliest period announced its intentiob
djournc
, bring forward the subject, 'the Noble Lordbilimad't°,‘lla.t,i,l,l
I piece of jockeyship net in very good taste, taken ant oe
cage of that motion to interpose his own in the firsdean
stereo. He did nut think the Noble Lord had tee
ftnrly with the document hich had been issued by it
it
Ulster Association, and he doubted very much whett,-i- of
was his real intention to make that Report the hahajeet
his Bill. Ile wished to point out to the Goverl;',.lesi
the expediency and wisdom of extending the pro the
of the measure which they were about to introduce "dg io
amendment of the Act for the Registration of Veter of
Eagiand, to Ireland, as it would do away with gn—itbs
the jealousy and discontent that existed on Ile
other side of the Ceannel.—( Hear, hear.), the .
; threw these remarks out for the corisideratien (with
Geverninent as the resud of considerable reflection. 'hie
regard to the definwon of the franchise it seemed I°f the
that they were determined to regard the del cts clfean
a
Reform Bill as sacred.—( Hear, hear ) Na 'n' ..gtiOti
y i hers of the opposite side had thrown out anngg
with respect to the qualification. The Ilan. I‘ll,-iec
was th, n underetood to state his views upon thii sahhgegf
and to ray he thougid it should be based upon the 'o-eat
under the Poor-law Act, but from the great noise tab,
prevailed in the House during the whole of his sP re'
they were aitegether inaudible, in the gallery. ri'diblier
commended his Hen. Friend the Member for mg sir'
riot to press his motion, as he thought under existl'e'
vumstences it would be unavailing to do re. eige•
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he confessed big °;;'t to,
tion to the measure which the Noble Lord had °U° the
' introduce last Session, was but little diminished-I*es%
statement which the Noble Lord had made of the pr.e,"o of
measure, which seemed to him, with the exeePtl'senie
some particulars, to be, in its main features, the ne
Bill, and calculated to produce the same celarnit°nshrell
eurostances which it had appeared to him would have/ WI
the result cf the enactment into a law of the Bill
trill
„lb;
year.—(Cheers.) He must own, candidly,
Noble Lord had stated his case very fairly; Yet ISO,
certainly somewhat singular on the part of the f
Lord, that while there were many abuse/ °de 0
kinds in the registration system, in the °l° pit
voting, and in the practice of elections In, tests
land, Scotland, and Ireland—that while all oils,
I existed in England and Scotland, and that vet 01'
those in Scotland the Neble Lord bad dwelt up?o,4e re'
these he had passed by, and it was the abuses to 'Nettl°
gietration system of Ireland which called for the eel
Lord's especial attention, and made him anxious, all
moment of thesessioi, to provide a remedy for, les,vol,"r l°
the others in full vigour without attempting 01'; 01
remedy or palliate them.—(Cheers.) He n'ubp's to
I.kewise that although there were many *bus" 111)
the registration system of Ireland, that although he•ae: 0
not deny the statements made as well on the one Si eel
the other, yet ho did view with considerable jealoel est
alarm a measure for reforming these abuses, whieetios
sought to be enacted entirely with a view to the resit{ tbs
of the franchise.—( Cheers. ) This was the Froiti,t eboli4
Bill of 1829, brought in for the cenceseion of the Does',
claims, and which was a stringent measure of discll2/3ill°'
Lion.—(Cheers.) It was also the spirit of o°,o,
1832; and the Noble Lord again considered this "'a- nes;
with a view to remedy abuses which might have r-rr
and to granting franchises which might be neeesssn3l,/
not of altering the restrictions of the Bill °f ores
(Cries of " Hear, hear.") After these two In-ans ,
the Noble Lord proposed a measure on the to Tbe
of restriction, and to narrow the franchises grant oebi°
people Ireland some fifty years ago, so as to disfraodeos
the people of Ireland. It might be quite right to Wirt, et 4
a Bill on the subject, but it behoved the House dto sr°
most narrowly to the provisions of such a Bid, a° take:
clearly whet would be the effect of all its provisienghlohl
together.—(Hear, hear.) He remembered his ogle:
Friend the late Lord Durham, in discussing some,hroogb;
tions on the 101 franchise in England, which h°,
too numerous and too apt to be vexatious, said,
say every man who is a 101. householder shall bays -,env
but sou may add that he shall also be able to e°-gth'
the fired hook of Homer," intimating that TP° Pei
chise might, in fact, be confined to a , 5,1,1
sons, althought it might seem to be a
tot:" /47°'':
exrended franchise —( Hear, hear, hear.) The
proposed to continue the franchise to I fool'
isted, by proposing that the franchises should heortrtso
chises defined by the Courts of Law, whose ujointil
course, as he hid already observed (without (Pa
the Judges any political bias, but only the teridene,'oey 1
the authorities of the Courts of Law), was Ochre fr°l,
restrict, by technical distinctions and defieitionsr T'laer.dr.
curses whic'i existed, either by common law or sT"
( Hear, hear.) It was thus that the largest wor:isteits",i
charters, " our communities." " burgesses (",.. „lb, hit°
" community of our said town of Bath." arid so re'r
b •en in the course of time restricted to s°) 10'
os thirteen persons.—( Loud cheers ) N"vi' lettenEr
wished to part with alt control over these °1- ethol
if they wished to pass a Bill to Which these nes,
House of Parliament would not give its consents th to
be a Bill in.which these franchises were in - futs'f
defined and settled by the Judges of the Court' -the";
for if the franchises were to be thus submitted to it, Oil
cision of the Judges, he could well imagine thrtir 60.1
long course of time they would be limited to a 1110511 f
class of persons.—(Hear, hear.) . It was very we ret''
that when a man has not a vote, because he does note P be
possess the estate which by the law he was mean-00"re
sess, and yet by fraud is placed upon the registeet'eeect°,l
should be taken off; but they must, on their part, tete trt,,
that, in erecting a barrier against the fraudole° tope
did not also erect a barrier against the real b°l7, tees;
voter.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Now how laffito bids
to exercise the franchise, who, conceiving hirese tea
voter in Ireland, but happening not to be connebet
any strong, and wealthy, and powerful landlord, th' it
ding 0'
on his own independent property, and who Tea „ate. te
Acts of 1829 and 1832. conceived that he had a
went to the Assistant-Barrister, who allowed gejtci
. was then appealed against, end put to the expense ore:
to the Judge of Assize. That Judge might "Lalio"er.
had an opinion in his favour, and his vote might '; leaeo
tiler', but the same process was to be repeat", n 0t t° `t,
4ft
He might find an Assistant-Barrister, or if he (linos
assize town, he might find a Judge, who Put`gategtiil
ent interpretation upon the law, whoso °deer be
•tho fiecholder might be enabled to follow, and KO' te,
that ho had no vote ; and thus, after considerah'-his 1° s•
found himself deprived of the power of giving, 0411
He ( Lord John Russell) said that when Intl, °`' e
boors saw that—when they saw that Toderglo
result of his labour was that he had I.' to col'ot
great loss of time and trouble, and had been Put reer're.
&treble expense—had been sent before three. or bad Po
five, six, seven, or eight Judges, and that they 5,
riVt Old,
nounced learned, subtle, and intricate diequhtiti°°J Int
ended in depriving their neighbour of his vote, send !en
time, and trouble, he (Lord Julio Russell) alto
though their votes might be excellent in lass, the' tioel 1)
be thus discouraged and prevented from eThto
exercise them.—( Hear, hear.) He (Lord J°,7rel's Yje•
said this would be the effect of the Noble
He did net say there might not be certain case's' toioseeli
that there might not be either cases of fraud 0r a d'"he
but be did say that these might be corrected 'anettli
more simple manner, and that if they wished t° ohqib.a
whole question he.believcd they would find it imPli peefoa
do so tranquilly, and, above all. with justice te tdeefue''.,ss
of Ireland, unless they took into consideration th'osechlths
of franchises. Was it not a great evil to givied 00.4
to the people of Ireland, and that they slou„' oeh 18Y 10
Lord Chief Justice of the Court of Queen's 1":100ried
down the law in one manner and the Cle'en er,''eg'
;soother ?—( Hear, hear. ) Wes nut this an e;cd Poi
when the (Noble Lord entirely pratterouillhote toe
land and Scotland, and had given his
,;* snit -
sole attention to Ireland, was it too much tr.hio'o
if he did not choose to do it in this Bill—or let, oche
liked, bring in a separate Billbut was it t°' t„ tr',gro
say that this system of franceise ought likewite (l'oa
tied ?—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord said thsTronee hee
J. Russell) stated that the questions of regi't deaf tote
qualification ought to be separated. He did "tble to ,
but he had found that it was perfectly imP°lsi ropier tbe
the franchise in a separate Bill and to frame. be bs
tion Bill solely relating to that subject. That rn'igitet :n
right ceurse. end wag the tole Test )"..nt.. 2-
he ( Lord .1 rho Russell) sa;d net, they otqbt
kut-11, tiviy ere;glV;tue; A I cmcll, to ea rid'
in iactg all that. was done west to • foie'
plete system of registration, and to narr°P7 thu