The Sun.
London, England, 1847-01-26 00:00:00

he ought to be relieved from all contingent expenses, but
when a tradesman or a merchant was unable to meet the
demands made upon him, the country interfered and di- I
vested him of that property. The Drainage Act, passed
in the time of the lion. Member for Tamwo, had only
just come into useful effect, for the - Act of
last session had not yet come into useful operation.
The proposal to advance money at at 3i per
cent. for twenty-two years would take away
all the just grounds urged by _ the proprietors
of land against the improvement of their property.
With the aid of these measures, he confidently antici-
pated, seeing Ireland restored to peace and happiness.
Mr. LEFROY wished to.ask the Noble Lord two questions.
Did GVernment intend to take steps to insure a suppl y of
food ino Ireland ? Unless they did do so the proprietors of the
land would experience considerable difficulty in alleviating the
sufferings of the people. The next question he wished to ask
was, in what way will the proprietors of land have the benefit
of the borrowed money ?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL replied, that Government did
propose to interfere with the trade and importation of corn
into Ireland. With regard to the second question, he would
rather defer answering it for the present.
Lord LINCOLN said there were two questions which he
was desirous to put to the Noble Lord. The first was with re•
Bard to the drainage ; he wished to know whether the Noble
Lord proposed to ex.end the operation of the Million Act of
last year ? The Noble Lord would recollect that two millions
had been voted for the drainage of England and Scotland, and
one million to Ireland. Now, did he propose to limit the
amount to that sum, or was he prepared to advance sums from
time to time, according as there might be a demand for them ?
The second question had no immediate reference to the speech
of the Noble Lord, but it was exceedingly important that public
attention should be directed to it, and was becoming daily
more so. He alluded to the anticipated increase of fever in
several parts of Ireland. The late Government were so
strongly impressed with the necessity of taking some measures
to prevent such a calamity, that they passed a short Act called the
Fever Bill, that enactment would expire on the Ist of Sep-
tember next. Under it, power was given to constitute a cen-
tral board. Sir Philip Crampton and Dr. Corrigan were
named as presidents. He believed that the present Govern-
ment, conceiving that the board was no longer necessary, abo-
lished it. He wished also to know when the Noble Lord would
proceed with the Bill, with a view to the renewal of the dis-
cussion, and when he would be prepared to lay on the table
those papers to which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
alluded. He apprehended that the Government were in pos-
session of a great mass of other information, which it would
be most desirable should be placed in the possession of the
House.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Government intended to
have a separate Act for the drainage of Ireland. They wished
somewhat to enlarge the clauses, and although the sum would
be limited to one million, the overnment would not hesitate
to advance such sums as might seem requisite. With regard
to the second question, the Noble Lord was aware that there
were many practical difficulties which he was better able to ex-
plain than he (Lord John Russell) was.. With regard to the
third question, I do not know that I can precisely fix a day.
Sir G. GREY—Say Wednesday next.
Lord J. RUSSELL—WeII, then the papers will be laid upon
the table of the House on Wednesday next, and I propose to
renew the discussion- on Monday next.
Mr. LABOUCHERE explained that the operation of the
Fever Act had been very unsatisfactory, and many abuses had
crept in which had materially operated against its efficiency.
The Noble Lord opposite (Lord Lincoln) was aware, that be-
sides the Fever Act there were other Acts that could be
brought into operation for the prevention of Fever. There
was a provison under the Poor-law Act, by which the poor-law
authorities, with the consent of the commissioners could attach
fever hospitals to the workhouses. In many instances this
had already been done. There were likewise one or two other
Acts of Parliament. There was one of the Acts of George
111., cap. 55 and 56, empowering local boards to establish
fever hospitals, the expense to be levied for the time on the
county as the case might be. The Government had done all
in their power to meet the fever which was alleged to pre-
vail, but such had been the abuses of the law of last session,
that they were anxious to meet the evil by the ordinary laws.
Thosigh fever had arisen in cases where there was a defi •
ciency or want of food, in other respects the country was
generally free. He believed the alleged cases of fever that
had taken place in the workhouses were rases of dysentery and
not properly fever.—( Hear, hear. )
Sir R. INGLIS said, that from the observations of the
Irish Members, and looking at the state of the benches, the
feeling seemed general that the discussion should be ad-
journed. Still, he would be even more unworthy of a seat in
that House than he was if he suffered such a speech to pass
without expressing his cordial admiration of that address, re-
markable as it had been for the topics introduced, as well as
for those omitted.—( Hear, hear.) In discussing such a
question as the one under consideration the difficulty was to
treat the state of Ireland so as to avoid those points of diffi-
culty through which other Ministers had been overset.
His Noble Friend had attempted to conciliate both sides of the
House, and had not attempted to provoke any opposition to the
measures he proposed, There was one point upon which he
(Sir R H. Inglis) ventured to express some doubt, and that
was whether his Noble Friend might not re. consider his pro-
posal to great advantage. As far as he (Sir R. H. Inglis)
understood the statement made, there were no less than
4,500,000 acres in Ireland, which it was proposed to
reclaim. His Noble Friend proposed to divide this
large area into sections, so inconsiderable as not even
the most purely political economy would propose for an
impoverished and pauperised people, with its agriculture de-
teriorating from day to day. Supposing this area were to be di-
vided into compartments of /0 or 50 acres, it would be laying
the foundation of one of the greatest evils of Ireland
—a rising population without means to enable them to culti-
vate the soil. Let them look at France and see hew
the subdivision of land was injuring that great country.
He would rese• ye to himself the opportunity en a future occa-
sion of giving further expression to his opinion on the measure
of her Majesty's Government.
In answer to a question put by Lord HAMILTON, we un-
stood the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say that it was not
proposed to allow the proprietors of land in Ire-
land to obtain money from tke Government for the
purpose of carrying on the ordinary cultivation of the land.
He begged to state that relative to the parish of Skibbereen, it
should be borne in mind that there were an immense number
•f persons now to be fed, who had never required to he fed
before; and in one parish in that union the deaths at present
amounted to 25 per day. Having stated this he was most
anxious to ask two questions of her Majesty's Government
whether it was their intention to bring in a Bill to enlarge
she Piers and Fisheries' Act by affording greater facilities, and
also whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Govern-
ment to take steps in consequence of the survey then making
of Cork harbour (which they had been requested to do in
consequence of an important meeting held there to take
steps for the improvement and extension of that harbour. He
thought that he might state that any outlay laid out on the
harbour of Cork would be a most politie measure in conse-
quence of its important geographical position, and its import-
sauce in the case of war.
Mr. GRATTAN thought it most important, in considering
the propriety of adjourning the debate, to consider what time
the debate should be adjourned to. de fully coincided in the
remarks made by the Noble Lord opposite, as to the state of
the pariah of Skibbereen. He had received a letter from a
gentleman in whom every confidence might be placed, and he
stated that the only red ground seen now was in the church,
yard, and so great was the number of deaths, that five acres
more were taken [in to add to the churchyard. The Ministry
said that nothing could be done to remedy this dreadful visita-
tion. He remembered when something was done. When the
Right lion. Gentleman who sat beside him (Sir R. H. Inglis)
and himself were young, the greatest names which the country
could produce, who then ruled the destinies of the empire, took
measures for the speedy relief of Ireland. He remembered
also, at a period not long remote, there were imported from
foreign: countries 3,700,000 quarters of grain, and from Ireland
1,776,000 qua+ ters, making over 5,000,000 quarters, and she
sent back to the latter country 47,000 quarters. Out of a
revenue which Rome, in its palmiest days, could
never have boasted—out of a revenue of 53,000,0001.,
having an excess of 2,300,0001.—England allowed grain to
revel' 325. a barrel, and oatmeal 4s. 2d. a stone, while the
wages of the labourer in Ireland only averaged &I. and 9d. a
day. He thought, therefore, if they adjourned this debate for
a week, they ought to send over food in the meantime. If
they had sent some relief to the southern counties in time,
much of the present expense might have been spared them.
There seemed to be a determination on both sides of the House
not to continue this debate. The Noble Lord had made a
very able speech. He had drawn a picture of Scotland, Eng-
land, and Ireland. He (Mr. Grattan), would not quote from
the books referred to by the Noble Lord, but he would only
remind them of the state of Ireland before that country was
handed over to him and his predecessors. He would ask the
Noble Lord why the Duke of Buckingham paid
only 6,000/. in his neighbourhood, when he (Mr.
Grattan) was actually taxed for teaching the children
of his tenantry? Did they think that if individuals
like the Duke of Buckingham, lived in the country, the loss of
this esculent would have ruined Ireland. He would Impress
the Noble Lord on
home, they
that if he 'intended to tax those
men who lived at :fur eiyl should also tax those who had
abandoned their count
that a man dischargedrlis duty toe
his estate to
Nr. Grattan) did not think
specroinahnt.ry,Earif hleFirtzawniriaamy:
and left the people on
took his 50,0001. from the same part of the country, and Lord
Portsmouth, was also a great proprietor. He trusted, there-
fore, that the Noble Lord would tax those gentlemen double,
and he could assnre the Noble Lord that the union with Ireland
could never be stable, until they had a contented peasantry, a
happy yeomanry' and a resident gentry.
Colonel VERNER said that there was one important point
which seemed who
had have escaped the attention of all those ho
had addressed the House that evening. He referred to the
purchase of fire-arms by the discontented peasantry. He
had had a communication from a gentleman connected with
the county which he had the honour to represent, and he was
assured by thatgentleman that a certain dealer had sold in a par-
ticular district of that county net less than 1,000 stand of arms,
while at the same time not a farthing of rent was paid by any
of the tenantry. In fact, it was dangerous to walk along the
public road, for such was the practice at targets, that the pea-
santry, unaware to what length the guns would carry, very
frequently missed by a hair's breadth the lives of the passers
by. He would submit to the Noble Lord, that when people
were steeped in destitution like Ireland, it was high time for
Government to interfere and prevent the exportation of oatmeal
from that country. Just before he left Ireland he gave his steward
instructions to purchase a quantity of meal, but he had since
learned that there was none to be bad. This state of things
could net have existed, had Government taken steps to prevent
If* being exported by speculative dealers.
"Mr- TAJITE said he wished particularly to be allowed to refer
to one
Lord had the Noble Lord had mentioned. The
Noble
acres Of landed stated that farmers, who held 30, 40, and 60
of funds,
which
their son to participate in the distribution
the poor starving had been intended for the relief of
he had attended very Pepulation.—( Hear, hear.) Now
committees in his part,
closely to the working of relief
circumstance
the country, and he was quite
convinced such a
Lord could not take place as that mentioned by the Noble
without the sanction of the relief com-
mittee of the district wher,e.itul,candrred. He thought it due
laad den, their duty, that the
to those relief committees
published
such a disgraceful
led to tbhuetwohreld.
names ef the committee who
areyla( ear,
occurrence to take place should be
rther, bad no doubt that it had taken
bated it all to absenteeism—the curse) Ole't
attri-
an earlier
hear.) /le would net trouble the House
ex-
cept to regret that the Noble Lord had not nnamed f
day than Monday for the further discussion of those
Mr. HUME had heard with great satisfaction the statementsnres.
of the Noble Lord, but still be must take exception to oneo
two of his points. The Noble Lord had, with great candour,r
stated the evils that had arisen from the attempt of Govern-
ment agents to employ the people. The Noble Lord had
stated enough to convince them that the system had produced
as
.much evil as good, and the sooner it was brought to a
close the better. There was one experiment in which he
felt convinced Government would fail. He alluded to their
intention to reclaim waste lands. These attempts had always
bailed, and resulted in robbing this country of much of its
capital. if the land was worth reclaiming, their would always
be plenty of private capital to do it with, provided Govern-
ment would only consent to simplify the transference of land
in Ireland, and establish there a similar land registry to that
of Scotland. Now land agents had recently told him that there
was plenty of private capital in this country ready to be ap-
plied to the recovery of waste lands in Ireland, but for the

THE

expensive and complicated machinery of conveying it, and the
continued intermeddling of Government.
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN rose for the purpose of putting
a question to the Government upon one point of the Noble
Lord's speech which he wished to have explained. It related
to the jurisdiction—the contemporaneous jurisdiction of relief
committees and boards of guardians. Did the Noble Lord
mean to put an end to the relief committees,orto combine

them as boards of guardians ? At present each had a separate
jurisdiction, and he should be glad to knew how this was to be
in future.—(Hear, hear.) Since the commencement of this
session he had heard a good many charges brought against the
Government for passing the Labour-rate Act. Now, he was
quite ready to admit that Government could have been justly
blamed for bringing forward such a measure, but after the
House had passed a:measure, responsibility ought to be shared by
the House.--(Cheers.) He knew, from experience, that what
the Noble Lord had said with regard to the landholders of
Ireland was corrrect, and he was quite ready to allow that
whatever had been the errors of former occupants of the land,
it ought still to be made responsible for the maintenance of the
poor. Unless, therefore, the landholders were prepared to co-
operate with the Government, with self-denial, energy, and
exertions which were not to be confined within common bounds,
or limited within ordinary duration, Ireland never could be
freed from its wretchedness and suffering.—(Hear, hear.)
He warned the Noble Lord, however, that if the landholders
of Ireland were slow to avail themselves of Government's
assistance, it would not be from a lack of desire to do so,
but because they were ruled by an agrarian law,
that had its origin with their forefathers, and which placed
them in extraordinary difficulties. All those who were ac-
quainted with land holding in Ireland, must be aware that it
was not a very easy matter to induce a tenant, to increase his
rent, for the improvement of his farm. It was difficult to put
such a question ; or if it were put, no doubt the landlord would
only give one very significant answer.—(Hear, bear.) The
Noble Lord must, therefore, be prepared to find a slow opera-
tion of his measure. He regretted to hear his Honourable and
Gallant Friend, the Member for Clare, blame the Government
for not putting a stop to the exportation of oatmeal from Ire-
land, because he was decidedly of opinion that it was for the
benefit of all parties that the trade should be free and un-
fettered. He would relate a simple anecdote to show why he
thought so, which would perhaps carry much more weight with
it than any arguments based on political economy he could
urge in favour of the principle. He spent the end of last
summer and the early part of autumn in two very different
parts of Ireland. He dwelt first on the alluvial shores of the
river Shannon, and then passed to the mountainous districts of
the county of Clare. He found in the last place that in con-
sequence of the peculiar nature of the climate they had to de-
pend almost entirely upon oatmeal. The crop, however, this
year was exceedingly short, and in consequence of the failure
of the potato crop they were compelled to carry their oats to
Limerick, then sell them in the market, and purchase wheat
imported from England. The oats brought an excellent price
but had Government interfered to prevent their expor-
tation these poor people would have been entirely de-
prived of food. , This showed the necessity there was for
the interchange of the commodities of the two countries.
He begged to express his entire concurrence in the general
views laid down by the Noble Lord. He cordially hailed the
proposition that the land of Ireland should support the poor of
Ireland. Before concluding, however, he would draw one
more moral from the calamities of Ireland, which was, that it
was to the landowners and proprietors of Ireland that the
country alone should look for its political regeneration.
Mr. ROEBUCK could not entirely concur in every view
taken by the Nobls Lerd ; he could not, however, refrain from
expressing his admiration of the lone and feeling which cha-
racterised the whole of the speech of the Noble Lord. He
could not, however, allow the world to believe that he would
find it easy to carry out the whole of his elaborate scheme.
That portion of the Noble Lord's plan referring to the pre-
sent difficulties he (Mr. Roebuck) would not then touch
upon. That portion, however, referring to the regeneration
of Ireland, he could not connect with the end proposed the
means which had been proposed by the Noble Lord in his
speech that night. He (Mr. Roebuck) considered
that taking the money from England to foster
and assist the Irish landlords was a grievous
error. All the money passed from the country to Ireland
was absolutely given to them.—(" No, no," from the Minis-
terial benches.) He had seen loan after loan of the public
money sent over to Ireland, but ;they had never come back
again, and it was proposed to take only one-half c.f the money
in return for the advance which was proposed to be made.
He was glad to hear that a blow was now struck at the root of
the evil in Ireland, and that it was ackn iwledged that the
land of Ireland must support the poor of Ireland. The Noble
Lord would no doubt meet with considerable opposition
from the landlords of Ireland, for the measure would no
doubt be a bitter one to them. He hoped, however,
that the Noble Lord would preserve that gallant bearing which
he had shown that night,and not spoil the effect of his measure
by endeavouring to sweeten it or make it mere palatable to the
people of Ireland by taxing the people of England for them,
and he hoped the Noble Lord would recollect that there was a
large English population to be considered even in legislating.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would Sake
that opportunity of answering several questions which bad been
put to him by Hon. Members. He had been asked what was
the distinction between the functions of the board of guar-
dians and the relief committees. The Government did not
propose to make any alteration in the functions of the board of
guardians. They were to remain as at present constituted,
and to continue to superintend the administration of the poor-
law, but in each electoral division a relief committee was to be
appointed. The members of the board of guardians and the
magistrates of the county would be ex-officio members of the
relief committees. These committees were to be constituted
legal bodies for the duration of these temporary measures,
administering relief throughout the electoral districts. The
rates would be levied by the board of guardians, and a cer-
tain portion of the rates so levied would be allotted to the use of
the relief committees. In answer to another question that had
been put to him, he would say that twenty-six depots had been
established in the west of Ireland, all of which had been open
the last six weeks. With reference to the question as to why
the delay had taken place till the introduction of these Bills, as
though the relief had been suspended till these Bills were
passed, he would say that such was not the case.—(Hear,
hear.) The most active measures had been in progress
on the part of the Government in the establiihment
of food and soup kitchens, which were now becoming very
general throughout the country. Ho would merely add, that
consequent upon the passing of the Act for the suspension of the
duties upon corn, large quantities of grain, to the extent of
500,000 quarters, would pass from the different warehouses,
and a reduction in the price of corn had already taken place in
the markets of Dublin, and in other places, and he hoped that
the present high prices would not long continue.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that it was the intention of
her Majesty's Government to proceed with the Bill founded on
the provisions of Mr. Labouchere's letter on Monday next,
and that he would move the second reading of it on Thursday.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN thought the time mentioned by the Noble
Lord was much too early.
After a few words from Lord J. RUSSELL,
Lord G. BENTINCK said that he agreed with the greater
part of the propositions of her Majesty's Government, with the
exception of the provision for the compulsory sale of waste
a nds. In his opinion the measure fell short of the necessities
of the occasion; as, for instance, when the Noble Lord spoke
of a grant of 50,000/. to supply the! wants of Ireland with sees.
That sum would be scarcely sufficient to sow five baronies—( Some
remark was here made across the table by Lord J. Russell,
which was inaudible in the gallery.) The Noble Lord then
went on to say that that sum would only be sufficient for about
25,000 acres of oats, or 5,000 acres of potatoes. A grant of
50,000/. would be almost like doing nothing. With reference
to public works, he (Lord George Bentinck) was in hopes that
the Government would have brought forward some measure
by which the employment of English capital might be stimu-
lated in Ireland. There was one feature of public works in
that country, viz., the formation of railways, which he had
hoped that the Noble Lord would have come forward
with some well-digested scheme to promote, upon as great
a scale as the construction of railways in England. He knew
of no other means by which, at so short a notice, so many
persons could be brought into a profitable employment as in
the construction of railways in Ireland. He (Lord George
Bentinck) was prepared to introduce a measure upon that sub-
ject, to which he hoped the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government would give the same amount of consideration as
he had given to the measures proposed by Goveinment. He
entirely dissented from the opinion of the Hon. and Learned
Member for Bath, who considered it a grievous error to foster
or assist the landlords of Ireland. He (Lord G. Bentinck)
knew nothing that could be of greater advantage than foster-
ing to the utmost the Irish landlords in the cultivation of their
estates. A noble proprietor of that country had stated, a
short time since, that if he could have obtained an advance
from Government of 24,0001., he would be able to improve
bis estate to the amount of 3,000/. a-year. He could not
conceive how England could possibly do better than lend to
the Irish landlords 24,000/., or even 24,000,000/, if they
wanted it. It appeared to him, that by so doing, the State
would be merely putting out its money at the most
profitable rate of interest, and he would be happy
to see 10,000 persons coming forward and asking each of them
24,000/. He did not approve of a system of emigration.
He thought that it was not the way to improve a country by
transporting the best of her sons. If a system of emigration
was carried on in Ireland it would take away the bone and the
sinew of their country, with all its enterprise, its strength, and
industry; and instead of leaving the country richer, but leaves
it poorer and weaker than before. The platy of facilitating the
sale of land contained in the proposition of her Majesty's Go-
vernment he looked upon with satisfaction.
CRACOW.
Mr. HUME said, as he did not see the Noble Lord the
Secretary for Foreign Affairs in his place, he wished to inform
her Majesty's Government that they were waiting for the
papers referred to in her Majesry's speech. Me was reluctant
to make a motion on the subject.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, since the House had met,
a paper relating materially to the relations between the dif-
ferent Powers had been received, and that the whole of the
i papers would be presented with the least possible delay.
Mr.
GRANTS FOR IRISH RAILWAYS.
tion r. W. R. COLLETT rose to bring under the considera-
tion of the House a notice of a motion which stood
effect :
In his name in the
no public works can
thhentnofriosgarwetatelineyor,
..TharPers.. and which was to the follow-
ingiopinionamn importance
rt
that
oant
coeofT
et
rotyh
thefisa
c i
IfutureiHouse,tyf o r
their construction be given by her Majesty's Government ,
provided always, that proper security can be afforded for the
repayment of any advances made by the Treasury." He said
the intimation of the Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn (Lord
G. Bentinck), would render it superfluous in him to press his
motion, but he could not forbear addressing a few observations
to the House on the subject. He deprecated the plan of spend-
ing millions of money in the cultivation of reads, whilst
the country was suffering so much from the want
of speedy and easy communications from place to
place. The interference of the Government was
absolutely necessary, for the purpose of carrying out
railways throughout the country. Without such interference
on their part, the Dublin and Kingston Railway would not
have been constructed, and the Government would advance
loans on good security, capitalists would be forthcoming to invest
large sums of money, and to guarantee ample security to the
Government. If the Government would step forward in this
way, before 48 hours had passed by 150,000 persons, who were
now subsisting on the charity of England, would be set to work
at profitable and useful employment. It would be unnecessary
for the Government to advance an) more money until the pro-
moters of such lines had paid up 20 per cent. of the required
capital, the money advanced to be secured upon works.
Thus 10D,000 able-bodied men, and 50,000 mechanics, would
get instant employment. When he heard that agriculture was
tot be fostered, and the whole country drained and improved, he
of the
produce cheaply bought that all this expenditure of money would be useless,
ago he urged aYand
unless railways
of the were constructed for the coneeyance
would materially land, required for the cultivation
similar argument, believing
and for . the purpose of conveying the
He did not s speedily to eligible markets. Ten years
peal
solely
to the advantage of the country.
because he was that its adoption
extensively
one connected with Irish railways,
s:htehnadhbeeeanp, connected
ix with English lines.
apprehended
Id e dt
shfaiptY'a rt
famine, he bought all the corn Ireland would be visited with
could obtain, and the re-
was connected, no one had received assistance
with which he
committees thus 500 men, or I moassiostance from the relief
ported since the calamity began. Tit Ve, had been sup-
could be employed if the Government waorull'clve 2"°° men
vance money for the construction of railways. ozsetosirtz ad-
vance
ing upon the advantages which would thus accrue to Ireland