The Sun.
London, England, 1840-05-22 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, MAY 22,

an ee attached to thequestion under consideration, and the exertion
wade to bring up as many Members as possible. Before the public
was in posses,ion of this decisive evidence, it was, however, wr,,11
known that the Ministers had put forth all their energies open
the occasion, treating the question as a vital one to their Ail-
rninistration, and prodigally dispensing, threats and promises,
engagements and concessions, and all those other persuasives,
which give to the party in filliCO so manifest an advantage ia
eases Q 2 the kind. Taking the result of the debate and division,
then, in any possible view, it must be regarded as a solemn
sentence pronounced by the Parliament against the Ministers.,

Lord LYNDHURST said the Noble and Learned
Lord had stated that the petitioners were tee late in their
application. The fact, however, was, iliat the moment
jnil'omsent was pronounced ti.e application bad been nonce,.
and !bought they had an absolute right to, call upon tile
Treasury to give thorn the right of appeal to the Privy
Council. It was quite Clear that the-award of the Com-
missioners was incorrect, Eccause c.ornyici:san w.as
given for the Champagne estates, the award having been
confined to the Burgundy estates. The opinion of the
Law Officers of . the Crown, to which his Noble and
Learned Friend referred, did not appear to him ( Lord
Lyndhurst) of much weight, for they had be-:n retained as
Counsel against the petitioners. Under these circum-
stances, he thought the nartios bad a right to have
their claims referred to the Privy Council.
After afew words from the LORD CHANCELLOR
in explanation, the conversation dropped.
The Marquis of NORM ANB Y, in presenting papers
from Commissioners of Poor-laws in Ireland, took
the opportunity of explaining to the Noble .Baron
opposite that Le had ee,mmunicated with Ni-
culs, from whom he learned that the object of the
circular referred to in a former conversation was generally
to avoid the inconvenience of having fractions in the valu-
ation, and that the effect of omitting the fractions would
be to diminish instead of increasing the valuation. How.
ever,- the circul.r had been since recalled, as it was un-
derstood that the Assistant Commissioner had exceeded
his authority in issuing it. The Noble Marquis then
moved the second readinr, of the Insane Prisoners' Bill,
which, after a few words from the Duke of Richmond and
Lord Portman, was agreed to, and the Bill was ordered
to be committed to-morrow.

iMPERI AL PARLIAMENT.

HO U SE OF LORDS, MAY 21.

The Earl of SHAFTESBVRY took his seat on the Woolsack
at Five o'Clock.

Lord How DEN took the oaths, and subscribci the Par-
liamentary Roll.
The Earl of II ARDWICK E presented a petition from
Northileet, praying for no alteration of the duty on foreign
fruit, Also a petition to tho same effect from the parish
of Liston, in Cambridgeshire, and a petition from the
Farmers' A sociation of Cambridge for an equalization of
the taxes on manufacturing and agricultural property.

The Archbishop of DUBLIN gave notice that he would
present on Tuesday a petition respecting the rubs.criiitin
of the articles of the Liturgy,
THE FINANCES.
The Earl of RIPON said that although the papers for
which he was about to move would not be objected to, as
they had been laid before the other House, nevertheless
he would take the liberty of making a few preliminary re-
marks upon the subject to which they referred.
At the beginning of the Session he had called attention
to the unsatisfactory, and,as he thought, alarming condition
of the finances. It appeared to him, then, that we were
entering on a course of financial policy inconsistent with
the best interests, if not the safety of the country. In
the last two years there had been a considerable excess of
expenditure over income, which had arisen from causes
over which the Government had no control, and for which
they were not responsible. The state of affairs at home
and abused had compelled the Goveruinent to call on Par-
liament for a great addition to the establishments of the
country. • He stated at that time that there did not appear
to him in the domestic and fortign relations of the country
any reason to justify the hope of such a change as might
make it expedient or safe to reduce the expenditure. He
had since watched.with a good deal of interest the events
to which he referred as having occasioned the unsatisfac-
tory and critical state of our finances. It would be a
satisfaction if he could see anything in the financial re-
turns of the last three months that could justify him in
expecting a possibility of reducing the expenditure within
the regular income of the country. It was true some
of the causes of expense might be diminished,
there might be a greater probability that some of cur
affairs with foreign powers might be settled, but that was
not apparent. With respect to the internal condition of
the country, it might not be in the same state of alarm,
but he did not think it would be prudent to reduce the
military force, which was increased at the beginning of the
Session in consequence of the state of the country., As
to another part of the United Kingdom he did not think
the Go%ernment could dispense with any protective force
that was established there. There was a volcano there
which now was in 'a state of repose, but which only wanted
a signal from those who controlled agitation there to
break out and overwhelm that unfortunate part of the
empire with its pestilence. Looking to those matters he
saw no reason whatever to justify the expectation that the-
establishments could be reduced. But there was another
cause of expenditure for which he had not been prepared,
he meant the impending hostilities with China—he had no
notion of the operations which were to be carried on, or
of the objects which were to be sought. The House had
been left in the dark upon the subject, and the reason why
he hael'not before asked for information was, that the re-
ference made to China in her Majesty's -speech could
not lead any man to suppose that we were on
the verge of a war with that empire. But at
that time the Government must have known that such
a war was probable. However they did not
choose to say so to. Parliament, although at the time or-
ders had been issued for the army to assemble in India.
He knew that the probability of the Chinese carrying on a
successful war with this country would not be entertained.
Yet there was in that great empire a via inertim, which
might make it very difficult for us to enforce any terms,
and no person could pretend to determine the conclusion
of hostilities or the limits of the expenses in which we
may be involved. Having watched without, he hoped,
unreasonable impatience, but certainly with some anxiety,
for the views which Ministers might form as to'the mode
of meeting the exigencies of the financial crisis,' he would
take the liberty of stating, in the first instance, what was
the absolute condition of the finances, and what was the
exigency which Parliament was called on to meet. It
appeared that in the year ending April, 5, 1838, the sur-
plus of expenditure over income was 1,428 000/. In the
year ending April 5, 1839, it was 430 0001., and in the
year ending April 5, 1840, it was 1,427,000/., making a
total excess of expenditure in the three years of about
4,300,000/. That was rather a formidable thing to go
on with from year to year, but it was more formida-
ble if it was looked at in connexion with what
it might be this year.—( Hear, hear, hear.) During
the last four years we had been going on at the
rate of an excessive expenditure of one million and a half
'over our income, and if that system were to be continued,
where would be the end to our embarrassment ? The ex-
penditure of the present year had exceeded the ex-
penditure of last year, but it had materially exceeded
that of the last six years. Supposing the revenue should
be taken at the same as last year, it would amount to
about 47,000,000/ , but from that was to be deducted an
expected loss of 300,000/., in consequence of some nego-
tiations going on with France. He did not wish to cuter
prematurely into a discussion of a treaty of which he knew
nothing, but he trusted that Government had made accu-
rate calculations on the subject; but the estimated defi-
ciency amounted to 2,730,0001., which it was obvious must
be met, and accordingly it was intended to impose new
taxes-to the amount of 2,337,0001., still leaving a deficit
balance of nearly 400,0001., which it was intended to pro-
vide for by a vote of credit. That was nothing else than
borrowing money ; a vote of credit was to all intents and
purposes a loan, and we were now going to enter into a new
loan at the same time that we were going to impose new taxes.
It was said that the expenditure for China and Canada
will be but temporary, and that it is therefore unnecessary
to impose new taxes for that. If he were convinced that
the expenditure would be but temporary he might accede
to the proposition. But suppose the circumstances obliged
us to continue that expenditure for another year, just so
long must we have again recourse to
,the miserable and
dangerous expedient of borrowing, lie thought that the
deficit of 1841 would amount to 8.50,000/ , and must be
all borrowed, so that that will again create an increase of
expenditure, and widen the difference between income and
could think that these charges
expenditure. Even if he
were temporary he would Atilt feel very uneasy at the situ-
ation in which things would be left. The Government
ought always to have' an available surplus. Yet it ao,
peered that the principle upon which they acted was, that
the income should not be a farthing more than the expendi-
tnre. That was' a most unsatisfactory state of things,' aid
he thought our power would be materially crippled, both
at home and abroad. Sonic persons thought that it was
better, in place of having a surplus, with which
to reduce the debt, to allow the money to
fructify in the pockets of the people. That was
n principle which lie could not understand. -They could
never meet any sudden demand without borrowiug money,
whereas one of the greatest advantages of an habitual sur-
plus was, that it enabled them to meet any demand that
might arise without having recourse to the miserable ex-
pedient of borrowing. Ile would give one instance where
an available surplus had been of the greatest benefit to the
country. In 1823 there was a real available surplus of
considerable amount. The duty- upon spirits during the
war, and up to that time, had been very high, which had
been productive of the most evil consequence; every one
had become smugglers, and 'the whole country was in a
state of the utmost disorder'. The army in Ireland were
occupied not in hunting after an open enemy, but after con-
cealed stills. The position of things had become intoler-
able. There was but One remedy, that was a large reduc-
tion of tie duty, and it was reduced to one half, involving
a probable loss of 800,000/. He certainly had not anticipated
such a loss would accrue, but he, by having a large sue.
plus, bad been enabled to run that risk, and had done, by
means of the surplus, an incalculable good for the country.
Supposing that during last year there had been a surplus,
the Government might have carried into effect the Post-
office scheme—one which he did not value so highly as
many ethers appeared to do, but the scheme could have
been carried into eff.:ct without the necessity for imposing
new taxes. There was nothing in the world so unsatis-
factory as imposing a new tax for one that bad been taken
off lie that was relieved from a tax very soon forgot his
sense of grathude to the Government and Legislature,
while he who was subject to the new imposition never rested
until he had obtained its repeal. Besides, an available
surplus was a means of reducing the expenditure, and the
Chancellor of the Exchequer would be well received in the
House of Commons if he were enabled to say that he had
been able to save the sum of 70,000/. per annum. who-
ther it was upon the collection of the revenue, or by having
paid off a corresponding amount of debt. Again, the un-
funded debt in Exchequer Bills was very' sufficient security,
and also an easy means to raise money ; but, in his opinion,
time Government ought
always to have a means of con-
trolling that security by means of a surplus.--( Hear,
hear, hear.) Last year the Government had been
able to fund four millions of Exchequer Bills, which in
his opinion was a very wise measure, but notwithstanding
that diminution in the amount of those bills they sunk to
a discount, and the Government were compelled to raise
the interest at an expense of 150,000/. ; and if he were
correct in his anticipations for the next year that expense
would be increased by 20 or 30,000/. more. In fact a
surplus was the only means of keeping our finances and
circulation in a sound and healthy state. Taking all these
things together he thought it was a most unfortunate cir-
cumstance if lie were to understand that the principle of
the Government for the future was to be the utter rejection
lacyG o -
the
of a surplus. He believed that such a system
and a
do pti
would cad
ng
a in gre • t disappointmtchnett
veinment expected
would please the country because they did not impose new
taxes, he thought they would be di
-sappointed, and they
would find that it would be much easier now to impose
taxes, in order to give a valid surplus, than it would be
some 'years hence, after the principle had been acted upon.
The Noble Earl concluded by moving that an account of
income and expenditure of the country be laid on the table.
Load MELBOURNE, who was indistinctly heard at
the commencement of his speech, said that it was not un-
natural that his Noble Friend should take that opportunity
of calling attention to the subject of the finances of the
country. - His Noble Friend admitted the state of affairs,

both at borne and abroad, was more proepereua now than •
it was at the period to which he had referred, and that it
appeared probab'e that virile of thole questions which had
then appeared to hint so menacing and pregnant with
danger and difficulty, would be brought to a peaceful and
prosperous termination—ti:h-t the state or affairs at home was
certainly more tranquil; and that even in these parts of
her Majesty's dominions which he had regarded with so
much dread and fear, and had represented as a volcano
which only required a signal to produce an eruption.
( How it was possible to give a signal to a volcano he 'did
net exactly understand.) Even there there was a tempo-
rary tranquillity, which it 'would be wrong to do any thing
to disturb. He ( Lord Melbourne) did not like to indulge
in any predictions on the present vtate of affairs, for he was
aware such predictions were frequently falsified by the
event ; but he thought he might, on 'the showing of his
Noble Friend, give thanks (Jr the favourabl,alteration
which had taken] place, and hope for better for the future, )
without expressing any confident views on the subject.
His Noble Friend had spoken of matters of which he said
he was not aware at the beginning of the Session, which
he was afraid would occasion great difficulty and expense,
and require more particular attention, and expressed his
regret that the attention of Parliament had net been pro-
perly called fo them by her Majesty's speech.
But if his Noble Frien-d would consider that
speech, be thought he would find nothing could more
distinctly point at that time to the circumstances which
had taken place, and those which were likely to take place
in relation to the interruption of our intercourse with the
Chinese empire, her Majesty having informed them that
"events had happened in China which bad occasioned the
interruption of commercial intercourse with that country,"
and desired them " to give the deepest attention to a sub-
ject so affecting the interest of her subjects and the dignity
of her Crown." It was impossible, taking into conside-
ration the usual reserve of Parliamentary language, more
distinctly to have called the attention of Parliament to the
consideration of the events which . had taken place in that
part of the world. His Noble Friend had spoken of the
growing excess there had been of late years of the expen-
diture over the income of the country. He stated gene-
rally that it would he impossible the system should be
permitted to go on ; that it was one necessarily pregnant
with danger, and called for the examination of the Go-
vernment and the country. It was that reason which bad
induced the Government to adopt the course they had
taken, and to propose the measures they had proposed,
having a strong sense and feeling that the excess of ex-
penditure over income could. not be long permitted, either
with honour, credit, or safety to the country. His Ncble
Friend had stated distinctly the whole state ofeheir finan-
cial affairs, the whole charges which were upon -jhe.
country, and the expected defalcation, and had seiff it
would not be proper for him to go into the consideration of
the articles of a treaty not yet concluded, and with which he
was unacquainted ; but he trusted that due consideration
h'ad ocen given to all matters relating to it, and the probable
amount of loss that may be expected: tie ( Lord M.) believed
that a correct calculation had been made on this subject,
and that all the circumstances to which his Noble Friend
had alluded had been taken into consideration. The loss
expected to be incurred had been placed at the highest,
and would very possibly be less, as he trusted would be the
case. That loss was not so great as was intimated by the
statement to which his Noble Friend had referred. His
Noble Friend bad stated distinctly these expenses were
considered but as temporary, and 'that the deficiency which
was occasioned by them were to be made up by a vote of
credit, for the Government did not think they would be
justified in laying on the country permanent taxes to meet
what they trusted would be only a temporary expense, and
not be incurred another year. If it should be continued,
or succeeded by others of a similar character—an event
which, unfortunately in the present state.of affairs, Waebut
too likely—they must meet that when the d'fficuitiescame,
for they thought the present circumstances of the country
would not justify the ithposition of permanent burdens for
expenses which he trusted would not continue. 'But the
great objection which his' Noble Friend made to the whole
system on which they acted, and to the whole course of
their conduct, nod that part of his 'speech which in his
( Lord Melbourne's) opinion, was extremely valuable,
and which, if it contained his sincere • opinion, he
thanked his Noble Friend, for making—the objec.
tion that he pronounced, to the principle of conducting
the financial affairs of this country—on the policy of net
imposing taxes for` the distinct purpose of producing a
surplus of income ever expenditure—that if taxes produced
a surplus it might be applied to those purposes for which
a surplus was applicable, but that it was not wise to
impose the continuance of taxes for the purpose of pro-
ducing that surplus. This was a question of -great diffi-
culty and importance, and which it was of great
importance should be decided correctly'.. The principle on
which this country had acted for many years was to have a
surplus. In the year 1819, a period. of considerable diffi-
culty, his friend, and the friend of his Noble Friend also, 'Mr.
Huskisson, moved a resolution to the effect that there
should always be a surplus of some millions, which was
carried in the House of Commons by a large majority;
but great financial difficulties had since followed, and their
pressure had spread over the whole. country, and induced
the Government to renounce and abandon that principle,
which it was, in fact, impossible to maintain • and it did
certainly appear to him to be a very difficult question,
whither it was wiser to impose taxes for the purpese of
creating a surplus, or not to impose more tharowas abso-
lutely necessary for the expenditure of the. country.--
( Hear, hear.) His Noble Friend had ridiculed the
phrase " to fructify in the pocket of the people," and said
he did not understand what was meant by that fructifica-
tion. The expression had been used by an Hon. Friend,
then in office with them both, and late President of the
Board of 'grade, and his meaning NM to ask, whether it
was wiser to impose taxes for a surplus" to be kept with
great expense and loss, or to leave a larger capital in the'
possession of the people which might be so employed as
would promote the general wealth and prosperity of the
country, and enable it to meet any of those difficulties
which might arise, and • not to exhaust it by unnecessary
taxation. He (Lord Melbourne) said this was an impor-
tant questiob. He knew well the system of a surplus had
not been hastily abandoned—but, on the contrary, on
principles of reason and political economy, and possibly it,
might be said, of political necessity. His Noble
Friend had panegyrised the advantages cf a sur-
plus, but that was quite unnecessary, for 'a sure
plus was generally admitted to be good and desir-
able thing. It needed not the exertion of .much elo-
quence to prove that. Taking- all the circumstances of
the Government into consideration—taking also into con.
sideration the feelings and situation of the people, and the
general economical question, it did appear to him that it
was not clear that it was wise or prudent to impose
taxes on a country, for the sake of producing a surplus.
At the same time, it was not a question on which he would
,undertake or presume to give a decided opinion at pre-
sent ; but he thought, under the present circnmstaaces
and situation of the country, the measures which bad been
proposed were sufficient for the occasion, and the best that
could have been proposed. There would be no objection
to produce the papers desired by the Noble Lord.
Lord A SHBURTON, who was nearly inaudible at the
commencement of his speech, was understood to say, that
he highly applauded the measures of the Noble Earl
(Ripon), and pancejrised the manner in which he had
carried them out during the time he held office. At that
period there was a deficiency of between five and six mil-
lions;and what policy did his Noble Friend recommend to
the people ?—not that recommended in the present day.
He did not •court popularity by reducing taxation, and
leaving cur burdens to our children, but met the, difficuley,
manfully in the face, and covered the deficiency
tion. Whether it was called a sinking fund by taxa-
On a surplus,
it amounted to the same thing, and he thoeg lit that unless
this country returned to that—the ord.y sound and honest
but 'roguery and swindling in
policy (for there was nothing
the opposite system), they W0...1W find themselves subjected
to time insults of every country, without the means
or resources of avenging them. Every person knew.
even in ordinary affairs, that their income never should
exceed their expenditure. He would recommend
the Noble Viscount the perusal of Mr. Huskissou's speech
on this subject, where he would find it powerfully ex-
pressed that no country could be independent in power or
resources, unless en this one principle of having some
surplus fund beyond its ordinary expenditure. The reso-
lution which the Noble Viscount alluded to, was one passed
in the House of Commons in the year 1819, by a majority
of 19.7, there being but a small minority, and is—.. To
provide for the expenses of the public service,:and to make
such reductions in the debt as aro adequate to the support
of the public credit, and afford to the country future relief
from the present burdens; it is absolutely necessary there
should be an increase of surplus over expenditure, of not
less than five millions,' and for which it is expedient there
should be an increase of income amounting to three mil-
lions annually." And what would happen to this country,
if any tireumstances should occur, which would require
an expenditure of eight, ten, or fifteen millions, a hich
was a small amount compared to what was ex-
pended at different times during the last war. Then
they must borrow or tax for the purpose, and it was unjus-
tifiable to go on in a system of borrowing on the plea which
every Minister adopted—that it was merely an occasional
expense, and that therefore it was unwise to impose taxa.
tion for the purpose. If they looked to other countries—
, America for instance—they would find a different system
prevailed. That country, unfortunately for us and for
themselves, was involved in a contest with us, which occa-
slotted a large expenditure. Nothing was more justifiable
or sound in finance than to borrow for that purpose, but it
was not honest to borrow if they did not make
provision for the gradual payment in time of peace
of that they had borrowed in time of war. That
country had paid that debt, and did not owe a sixpence,
and ire (Lord Ashburton) doubted whether the sagacity
of that people had not found, as every people must find,
that their honour and independence was best secured by
taking off that debt in time of peace which they had con-
tracted during war. As to the occasional demands which
might come upon him, the Noble Viscount had only to
consider how numerous they had been, to see they were of
constant occurrence. We had now a quarrel with Portu-
gal, and an Ambassador had arrived from that Court to
endeavour to prevent an interruption of the amicable
intercourse of the two countries. There was Naples
and Sicily, and the Boundary Question in America.
All these difficulties were greater in number than
could have been by prudent management of our
foreign affairs, at least he must be a very unfortu-
nate Minister for Foreign Affairs to have so many things
of this kind an his hands. Therefore a surplus of revenue
was desirable in order to make provision for any sudden
exigency ; and further, as was so ably stated in Mr. Hue.
osrpreeeveehr,mteo,
amgaakinestpwrohviieshionnofotirlintghecoorudldinaproysfliiabely-
tkui estei
(a,an's
guard. He laid down the principle that in a revenue of
fifty millions a fluctuation may be expected to the extent of
, ten per cent. This was a most important question, and
be had too much opinion of the honesty and good
sense of the people of this country, that if they
were reasoned with, as in the days of Pitt
and Huskisson, they would be willing to submit to the ins.
position which was necessary for the sincerity and inde-
pendence of the country. He thought hr the calculations
the Government were going on they had much undervalued
the sums that would be required, to what extent no one
knew ; but except they had a " little war" 150,0001. in
Judie appeared to biro to he. very little for a dcroonstra-

•
tion which was to frighten the Emperor of China. lie
hoped, however, the Noble Lcrd had sufficiently con-
sidered the subject with respect to the treaty with France ;
all he could say was, nothing could give him grcat:T
pleasure than a commercial intercourse with that
country. He thought if the project were really
entertainrd in good faith between the two countries there
could be no greater advantage to both, but the little expe-
iience he had on this subject left hitr in doubt as to any
thing effectual being done. He would not trespass further
on their Lordships than to make one observation with re-
spect to Exchequer Bi!ls. Instead of having a surplus the
country were saddled with an expense of 150,0001. interest
in Exchequer Bile, and the whole monetary affairs of the
Government were deranged by an unfunded debt more than
the market would bear, and what ordinary prudence would
have prevented. 13-fore he sat down he must thank his
Noble Friend fur having drawn attention to the
subject, which was the most important that could
engage the attention of the Government and the people.
He begged to ask the Noble Viscount whether the treaty
with France was expected to be effected during the pre-
sent Session?

Lord MELBOURNE was understood to reply that he
could not answer that question.
• Lord MONTE AG LE presented a petition against
Church-rates, and a petition againSt the opium trade with
China.
The House then adjourned at Eight o'Clock.

EVHNINCI RDITI(Ast•
tho Government of Canada being brought forbYgrip 114
ssou4l rnc,v4, that it he cocsidcred that day six tron92lh
Ii !.,' also gave notice on the same Biji of aa
amei,dreent fur an Address to her Mdcsty, prayitk her to
remove the suspension of the habeas Corpus Act is
Canada.

CAPITAL OFFENCES.
Mr. GODSON gave notice of a motion, 2d June, for
erecting the fifteen Judges into a Court of Appeal in cri-
minal cases—(" Hear, hear," from Mr. O'Connell)—
and, on tie part of his Learned Friend, Mr. F. Kelly, that
the motion respecting capital punishments would be put
off till the same day.

ADJOURNMENT' OF THE HOUSE.
Lord J. RUSSELL gave notice that to-morrow be
would move that the House, at its rising, to adjourn till
TuestLy next.
Mr. E. J. STANLEY moved for a new writ for the
borough of Coekerinoutit in the room of Mr. Horsorian,
uho had accepted the office of one of the Lords of her
Msjcsty's Treasury.
In &timer to a question from Mr. HERRIES, who WWI
wholly inaudible in the gallery,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was understood to say, that
the Bill with regard to the taxes would be proposed to-
morrow.

Sir R. PEEL begged leave to inquire what the Noble
Lord proposed to do on the 29th, with respect to the busi-
ness of the ?

Lore. J. P USSELL said that he proposed the House
should sit.

Sir R. PEEL said the Noble Lord would recollect
that, before the Easter holidays, he stated that the
papers mow. d for respecting the Boundary question,
and our differences with the United States, should
be immediately laid before Parliament. Shortly before
the House separated he understood from the Noble Lord
that the papers were actually printed, but they had not yet
been presented. He (Sir R. Peel) wished to know when
they would he laid on the table.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the Right Hon.
Baronet had correctly stated shat he said at the
time. When he gave that answer be thought the
whole of the papers had been printed ; but that hap-
pened to be the ease only with respect to papers
from his own department. They bad now been ready
for some time, but he thought it better to present them to-
gether with tho3e from the Foreign-office, which were not,
but shortly would be, ready.
CLERGY RESERVES.

Mr. PAKING TON wished to ask the Noble Lord
the Secretory, for the Colonies if ho had decided on the
course _he. intended to.prapore.with regard to the Clergy
Ilcser%,es

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said it was his intention to
move for leave to bring in the Bill into that House.
regard to the nature of the Bill it would not be
to carry into effect the Bill passed by the Legislature of
Upper Canada, but it would contain generally provisions
upon the same principle as that Bill.
Mr. PA KINGTON i►,quired whe'dicr it would be
on the tabla before the discussic,n on the Canada Govern.
cent Bill?

Lord J. RUSSELL—No; I don't think it will be ready
by that time.
IRISH REGISTRATION BILL.

Mr. O'CONNELL begged to give notice, that upon
the motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair, on going
into Committee on the Irish Registration Bill, be should
MOVZI that it be an instruction and a direction to the Com-
mittee to daae the existing franchise. in order that the
more due registration of voters might take place. The lion.
and Learned Manber then said that he wished to correct
a mistake thr.t he niar?e a little while ago pith respect to
the p, titian from Buth. He had stated that that petition
was totally false; he meant by that, merely that every
charge against him of a criminal nature was Use.
fie did not mean to deny that he was agitating for a repeal
of the Union.

Sr C. DOUGLAS put a question to Mr. F. Maulo,
relative to Union Workhouses, but neither the question nor
answer were hoard iu the Gallery.
Mr. GODSON bogged to wk the Noble Secretary
fur the Colonies whether there wcuid be any objection to
I.:y the contract for carrying the mails to the Colonies,
which involved the sum of 2,400 0001.
Lord J. RUSSELL said his Right Hon. Friend the
Chancellor of the Exchequer would he better able to an-
swer the question. It had better be put when he was in
his pike.

CHURCH EXTENSION.
The Order of the Day haying been moved, petitions in
favour of Church Extension were presented by the Earl of
Darlington and Mr. Pusey ; and against, by Mr. E. Buller.
Sir R. INGLIS—Since be came into the House a
communication had been made to him which left him no
alternative but to postpone the notice of motion which
stood in his rime..—( Hear, hear, hear.) He had to
apologise to Members on both sides of the House for the
needless trouble which he had caused them, and he deeply
regretted, for the sake of the cause itself, that any
circumstance should have rendered any postponement
necessary. At the same time the communication
made to him was of such a nature, and from so
high an authority, that he .could not withstand it.
He considered it more respectful to the house at
once to state that that communication was, that he ought
to have originated his motion in a Committee of the whole
House. He had then no other course to take than
to beg leave to withdraw his notice of motion, and in
doing so he begged to state that on the earliest possible
day after the holidays he would certainly call the at-
tention of the ' House to the general subject. He
was not then prepared to state the terms of the
notice he would give, but he would take care that it
appeared upon the books in time for the information f
every Hon. Member. He regretted the course he was
obliged to take, and he bad now only to withdraw his no-
•tiee of motion and tcnew it for an early day after the
holidays.
Mr. II UME was sorry the Hon. Baronet had put off
his motion ; he did not seem to be aware of the excitement
existing on the subject. What. was to prevent the Hon.
Baronet moving at once that the House should resolve itself
into a Committee, and then bringing the subject
forward, or he (Mr. Hume) would move, that
the House do resolve itself into a Committee,
when he would bring forward the amendment of which he
had given notice as a substantive motion, and the Hon.
Baronet could bring forward his motion as an amendment.
The SPEAKER said that the proposition of the Hon.
Member was quite as irregular as it would be for the
Hon. Baronet to bring forward his motion. The Hon.
Member must be aware that any motion for imposing an ad-
ditional charge upon the people must be made in a Com-
mittee of the whole House, and that due notice must be
given. - -

Mr. HUME wished to ask if he was to understand that
cc subject connected with religion could be brought for-
ward, except in a Committee of the whole House, and
that notice must be given? He thought that was a doc-
trine perfectly new.—( Cries of " Order," " Chair.")
The SPEAKER said the Standing Order of the
1-1; use was, that they should not proceed to the discussion
of any motion for an Address to the Crown, on matters
likely to impose an additional charge on the people, except
in a Committee of the whole llcuse.
Mr. HUME was perfectly aware of that ; but he wanted
to know whether it was necessary that notice should be
given of the intention of moving that the House resolve
itself into a Committee.
The SPEAKER said that it was necessary far an lion.
Member to give notice that it was his intention on some
future day to move that the House resolve itself into a
Committee for such a purpose.
S:r R. PEEL said it was exceedingly doubtful whether
it was absolutely necessary that every question relating to
trade or religion should originate in a Committee of the
House. 11e was aware, however, that many Bills had
been stopped on that ground.
Mr. GOULBURN said the rule was that no grant of
money could be proposed, for whatever object, but in
Committee.
Sir R. INGLIS said if it were found necessary to make
two motions, he hoped that the formal one would be allowed
to pass without thbite.
Lord .1. RUSSELL said he had discovered that a clause
in the Canada Bill should have been introduced in Com-
mittee. He hoped, therefore, that the House would allow
him to take the Committee stage to-morrow.
Mr. G B URN— What clause ?
Lord J. RUSSELL—That referring to the Civil List.
Sir R. PEEL—I for one shall not object, but I must
give the Noble Lord full notice that if he cannot use his
influence with his own friends, to rest:ain them from taking
advantage of every little point of form to obstruct motions
on tli:s side—( Hear, hear, hear)—be will find that the
same advantage will be taken by others, and that he will
not thereby advance the Government business.—( Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL —The Right Hon. Baronet is so
far mistaken that what I propose is not against Corm, the
I3itl being now, I believe, on the orders tor to-morrow.
As to the Right Honourable Baronet's second obser-
vation, I perfectly agree that advantage ought not
to be taken of points of form, unless for the
most serious reasons, otherwise every party will
avail themselves of such points, and for myself I shall pro-
test, against such conduct front any party.—( Hear, bear. )
Sir R. PE EL—Lie two eases arc precisely parallel.
—( Hear, hear, and No, no.) The Noble Lord states
that two stages are nee2ssary, and he proposes to take one
without discussion_that is exactly what my Hon. Friend
proposed.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—I must agree that what the Hon.
Baronet proposes, will be in this case the most conveni-
ent.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME begged to say that he did not object to
golng on now—(Laughter)—but to taking two stages at a
time he should object.—( Laughter. )
BE:ET-ROOT SUGAR.
Mr. O'CONNELL then rose to call the attention of
the House to the petition of Mr. Hercules Bradshaw,
which he had presented on the 7th of May, and which had
been printed and placed in the hands of Hon. Members.
H
the facts of the petition. In Oc-
tober,st petitionera had commenced the rea-
-3e"lld 85 briefly,thestate
nufacture of beet-rout sugar at Hilsborough, in the
county of Down. He had been for two Years
engaged I in the erection of premises, and had ex-
pended 5,0001. for that purpose. He carried on the
manufacture for the period of eighteen months, during
which period there was no duty upon sugar so prepared.
At the expiration of that period a regulation was made by
the Government, in ardor to prevent frauds being prac-
tised in the trade. In conseqnence of that Treasury Mi-
nute, Mr. Bradshaw had been allowed to alter his pre-
mises, at a very considerable expense. He continued the
manufacture till June 1837, when a resolution was passed
by that House, imposing a duty of 245. per cwt., which
amounted to a prohibition. Mr. Bradshaw consequently
lost the value of sugar in the process of manufacture ; and
his loss altogether, in consequence of his being prevented
I from carrying on his business, amounted to 16,0001. He
thought he had stated a case of very peculiar griev-
ance to that individual.—( Hear, hear.) A Noble
NOTICE OF MOTION. Lord (Lord Castlereagh) opposite, with whom he
Mr. CHRISTOPHER gave a notice in regard to (Mr. 0•Counc11) did not agree upon any other topic,
the Bill for imposing additional duties, which had ref:2:-. supported the statements of the petitioner. He thought
ence, we think to Ireland, but the cYcct of which we i the House was called on to refer this matter to a Corn-
were unable to hear distinctly.
CANADA mittce, as Mr. Bradshaw told him he was prepared to
• .
prove his ents. There no hance of
radshaw
Bthewascasetho
M IN
r. PAKGTON gave notice that on the Bill for 1 'being drawnstate inmtc a precedeut,was as Mr.c