The Sun.
London, England, 1847-05-15 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT
HOUSE OF LORDS, May 11.
The Lona) CHANCELLOR took hi ats se on the Woolsack
at Five o'clock.
A number of Bills were brought up from the House
of Commons.
THE TOWNSIIEND PEERAGE,
Mr. AUSTIN having concluded his address in this case
shortly before the assembling of their Lordships, a num-
ber of papers were handed in, and attested by witnesses
on oath at the bar.
The Bill was then read a second time.
Ti 1E FACTORIES BILL.
LedLeos,rd FEVERSHAM. presented a petition from
iglied by 95,300 persons, in favour of this all.
IMMIGRATION OF IRISH PAUPERS.
Lord CAMPBELL said he had a petition to pre:ient
from Liverpool. It had been sent him on account of his
connexion with the Duchy of Lancaster. They com-
plained that, since the Ist of January of the present
Year, 150,000 destitute Irish paupers had migrated into
tiv€l'Pool, taking up their residence in the town and
neighbourhood, taking possession of cellars condemned
as human habitations ; and that in these places lever.
tio
small-pox, and ilym aeery had broken out. They peti-
ned that their Lordships, in order to save them from
Rooto,, nly this pressu: e upon the poor-rates, but from the
--iou which was spreading. into every quarter.
LUNATIC ASYLUMS BILL
The. NOBLE AND LEARNED LORD moved that this
13111 snould go into Committee pro for Ind.
The Duke of RICHMOND was opposed to the pro-
gress ~f this Bill. Ile had opposed the original Bill, but
On,
present changed the only redeeming parts . of tha,
old Bill.
Lord CAAPBELL said it would be committedt
ioArlezi. and ample opportunity tor discussion vi on iI
be offered when it was in Committee.
The Bill then went through Committeefound.
The pro
The Bishop of EXETER gave notice that he woul.di,
:ca Tuesday next, ask the Government a questoiot 11,
its!
egard to a communication made to a deputation )
eaters on the subject of education.
POOR REMOVAL ACT. Earl FORTESCUE presented several petitions in
fa Karl
of the Poor Removal Act.
TEN HOURS' BILL.
Lord STA.NLEY preseated several petitions in favour
of the
Tea
Lord
Hours' Bill. One of them had received ten
thousand signature a.
same
effBenItt.OUGHAM presented several petitions to the
tThe Duke of RICHMOND presented four petitions
hem the West Riding of Yorkshire, which were also to
sarne effect.
efftrd PEVERSHAM presented a petition to the same
eetthousand which had received the signature of twenty-eight 1
persons.
IRISH POOR RELIEF BILL.
Earl
from FITZ WILLIAM moved for a. return
toral each rateable district, whether union, elec-
le i
‘, division, or otherwise, of the rates struck,.
the.r-e"' °r in arrears under the provisions of
the temporary
_, Act for
4g rattles and females,
,iseach district
ii, 0, an account of the number of persons, disting,uis 1,1
relief of destitute persons;
accordi to those provisions of the s d
andgults and children, to be relievaeid
out' by which the lists of such persons are to be ma e
of acwithin each division; also, a return of the estimates
heY the relief committee of each electoral division,
food, turl needed from time to time for the purchase of
and
,usnder the provisions of clause 7 of the said Act ;
whetah',l.o a statement of the rate per cent. of the rates,
districts struck or levied upon the valuation of the
a., et according to the poor-law valuation. He
izautioasked his Noble Friend to give him some infor-
and 0
Was therefore most anxious that the House should
And
ril documents iti their possession as would en-
Ana
he
to collie to a sound and accurate judgment.
ne could
differen assure the House that there was a great
(Lau hee between rates struck and rates levied
strik! ter.) it Was
quite easy for the officer to
After rate, but it was quite another matter to collect it.
The I'll tew words from Lord BROUGHAM,
°untamed to the House!)
Noble Lna'rquii. of LANSDOWNE suggested that the
After
.--1- • rd should post one the motion which he had
Fsoinr further conversation,
cotton Earl
. Z WILLIAM consented to postpone his
until Mond The Mar • a.
difficulty
that, in Commisq ' .
the ANSDOWNE rose again and said
ir,lttee on this Bill, after consid.erablr‘..
the mea '' oxing a
limit to the duration ot
reserve
m!ght himself to take that
to himself
he th ...en stated that he would
course which
Bill 1 think properat
he
• t was I, . the subsequent stages of the
ex now °nr his duty to retain the opinion which
of the 13,11 in Committee, namely, to strike out
affix a
,!ii, those
clauses which were intended to
- terapor limit to the measure, or to make it of a
ry a Y nature.
la in
The arguments on both sides
those Til.„ very narrow compass. It was stated by
... a''ttlitted
sure Lords who wished to affix a limit to this mea-
lie i at it was in a great degree experimental.
vested it ou introducing the Bill and he now re-
ture, b that the measure was of an experimental na•
PeriA but he still as strongly objected to have any fixed
also ,4,
_assigned for its duration.—(Hear, hear.) Ile
sure, tsa' °Pansed to its being made a temporary mea-
count:urn, the difficulties which they would have to en-
they wr in carrying it out; and in the course of time
difficult old be enabled to ascertain the nature of those
politi- ""; and to be, as a matter of course, in a better
thei " than at present to amend them. Of course
yearsr Lorkhhips would reserve to themselves the power
Onsidering the measure in two, three, or even teo
hence ; unless they reserved this power, the
greatest inconvenience would result. An additional rea-
son in favour of the permanency of the measure was to
be found in the diversified arguments of Noble Lords in
favour of the limitation of the Bill, some being in
favour of one year, some one year and a half, and some
for its limitation to five years—(Hear, hear)—that in
itself was an additional reason why they should not
anticipate the duration of the measure, but more espe-
cially was it inexpedient to do so at the present moment.
The experience which they had had of Ireland ought
to prevent them from passing the Bill as a temporary
one.—(Hear, hear.) The house of Commons intended
that it should be a permanent measure; that, however,
Vas no reason why it should not be submitted to revision
like all ether measures.—(Elear, hear.) They might
pass it as a temporary measure, and subsequently alter
,or abrogate it altogether. Under these circumstances
he begged to move that their Lordships do disapprove
ti Lord
°f thoSe clauses which made the Bill a temporary one.
BROUGHAM highly approved of the proposition of
ne Noble Earl, and considered that their Lordships should
eXpress their opinion upon it, and that they should abide by the
tesult."----( Bear, hear.)- He considered that his Noble Friend's
t;:otnents (Lord Monteagle) were rather in favour of making
eretion
'made it
e Bill Permanent instead of temporary. He said, if they
a!rmanent, that they would be unable to use their dis-
tan . _ with
da - respect to the Bill ; whilst he (Lord Brougham)
thaears'elfo-;:di that the very opposite would be the result, and
ft, . the je
considered it advisable for their Lordships to
a theeasure as a permanent one, and to alter
Re said ,Y thought proper, at a future period.
tt tri- ‘; 'ne idea of binding themselves to use their discretion
n4hta.ter-tirne was most absurd. He agreed that the measure
nu i only to
be temporary, and he thought so because it was
hinisainf 'Ystem and gave out- door relief. The Noble Marquis
ye,, 'a" admitted that the measure was only an experiment;
With rat experiment—a hazardous experiment encompassed
esiaetrarrY risk. Surely, it ought to be but a temporary
Was na dnt• Did they forget the measure of Ni 3-1, that it
he mast eats
emporary measure, and that merely ? He felt that
Lo7,t v against the motion.
ri,,,,e;"e CAMPBELL thought the Learned Lord had surely
in Lot ,read the measure as amended. Never was la reins le vent or
tf,
threet le reut pronounced over a more miserable farce of legislation
r ble Earl on his right had moved a clause at the close
of
ur, Bill that it be in force for three or five years, that
otheraa it
Ilium have been in the regular course of legislation. But the
stood contained clauses at utter variance cith each
itivi_r,s It contained four clauses, severally permitting the
kao,4"7_ef out-door relief; of provisional relief without the
tempurasrdge of the guardians and of medical relief. These were
l.
v. But there were classes inserted by the Noble zno.rd which quite stultified these. Clause 3 was to be a per-
kh'o7nt clause ; and it enacted that an exact return
",,,enid be made of all applicants for every kind of relief—
lilt"heal and out-door relief. In 1850 the powers to grant
•door relief would have failed. But it did, not cease then.ou
ri '1
-re was a clause respecting e
r - oft ; cio
i guara
out ns
its He w.
various
ld
i 't go through all the details of the Bd
to point
d'
Congruities.,T They had the confessions of three-fourths of
ri':ose who voted for the Bill that they did not know what they
Were about.
Lord MONTEAGLE said, though he had net the experi-
ence in legal matters that his Nobl.-
this case were so potent and Learned Friend pos-
sessed, yet he thought the fallacies in
that even an unlearned person could discover them. Medical
relief differed altogether from what was called out-door relief.
There was no inconsistency in the measure, as it clearly pro-
vided that out-door relief should be given for three years, and
that the Commissioners should have the power of controlling
Fed regulating it.
And the other objections of his Noble
riendwere equally i
untenable, namely, that permanent and
temporary clauses in a Bill were irreconcilable. The charter
or the Bank of England and of
the East. India Company, for
instance, contained temporary clauses with others which
were
b Perpetual, and therefore the insertion of
etialas-ses or this kind in the Bill was no novelty,
Was no evidence of inexperience on his part. Therefore,
sthe Bill stood it was partly temporary and partly the reverse,
buttil they
should bear in mind that the temporary part related to
Most important and at the same time the most serious part
or the Act. Nothing was more likely to prove fatal to the
the
than making it permanent, because it proposed the
introduction of - d rs ous principle, which its supporters ad-
u a
purely
rnitten ir, be
experimental. If they believed that the
t"Periment would be successful let them make it permanent,
but
ir th
r ~,, ey felt that they were introducing. a dangerous expe-
the
le'ereat--a frightful one, in his opinion, if they thought_ ?
Whiaagr°Ping in the dark, he asked them to support the clause
the
ne had succeeded in carrying.—( Hear, hear.)
r4r Bill were temporary it would be more successful and
',sheen advantageous, because it would be tried at timeto
the irerY one was interested in securing its success
they
har4VrnitY which had visited Ireland, from which could
' "Pe 'tshe could extricate herself in the next three
Year, ~ I
whiehh i,e denied that there was any truth in the statement
d-
Meru forad been made, that he had brought forwari! hisiamben ,
via, t the purpose of defeating the measure ; his sa e o
itpc.
cay, n render it more efficient and less injurious than as l
(„ea before them. His Noble Friend the Po3tmaaer-General
tnth Margois of Clanricarde) in 1543, when he was connect/
op the administration of affrirs in Ireland, was strong y
nial-"ed to out-door relief ; and said that he wondered that any
effee,,eould have the hardihood to introduce a Bill to carry into.
pru,A such a system, as it wool l lead to the confi•cstionlioet
coriP;irtYi and to the greatest misery and injusticei. )
hardl ered the proposition of the Noble Marquis ( Lang( owne
PortetYl respectful to the Noble Lords who, in Committee, sup-
Port his clause. To them he appealed to confirm. that suii-
Ayarqui;t, and not to consent to the proposition of the Noble
hangs Marquis of CL A NRICAR DE said his Noble Friend
relief, ins clause, lust sight of the main principles of out door
ad mttadnd had confined it to its least important matters. He
ferred,e that, at the time to which the Noble Lord had re-
if the that he was strongly opposed to out-door relief ; and,
doub,,e!raeurnstances were the same at present, he might, no
eont_‘_ll.ve heels of the same opinion ; but at that tine he
1i,,,,,0_7c1ed that out- door relief should he giveu to the indigent
eriranii.e he was of the same opinion now, and that
At of Ireland rendered out-door relief to the