The Sun.
London, England, 1824-04-10 00:00:00

SATURDAY, APRIL 10,
.1824.

in two years it would be repealed. -He trusted this would be
done now. He moved for a return of the quantity of Salt used
for agricultural purposes during the last year. - •
ttax b
ee nacbooulirsahgeet a mono-
ot
polyM rialtteSdTeEalßingocomplained
f
andtha ought g the
e
The motion was agreed to.
DUTY ON RUM.
Mr. ELLICE presented a Petition from a Rectifier, -Corn-
' plaining of the monopoly enjoyed by Distillers; and pr4ing
that he might be allowed to convert rum into spirits: • If this
permission were not given, the reduction of the-Rum Duty
would be inoperative. At least it would be so with regard to
' the West India Interests. The duty, as it nowstocal;had ma-
terially injured them
, by diminishing the consumption. It
seemed unreasonable to take .off the duty, and yet to" restrict
the use of the article. lie hoped the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer would take the subject into his serious consideration.
Mr. CURTEIS was understood to speak against the Pe-
tition. •
Mr. Hulig said, the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to
consider the interest: of all parties, and particularly-that of the
consumer. The Hon. Gentleman here went into some'calcula-
tion• to chew- the- diminished-consumption of rum, in conse-
quence of the duty. There was also an unfairness shewn' in
diminishing the duty in one part of the country, and retaining
it in another. A partial change was worse than no chaneT at
all. The present regulation gave a monopoly to English dis-
tillers, and, denied a market to any others. - '
Mr. L. FOSTER denied the accuracy of the -calculation
made by; the Hon. Member, so far as it relates to Ireland.
Mr. HustE explained. •
After a few words- from Mr. BRIGHT, the Petition was
brought up—On moving that it should be read,
Mr. ELLICE observed, that unless it was the intention of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer to allow the=Rectifiers to put
Rum into their still, he,should oppose the Right Hon. Gentle-
man's resolutions with 'respect to rum altogether. It was ab-
surd,. st,nd a complete delusion to suppose that the small reduc-
tion prepbsed to be made would be beneficial to the West
India interests. He must take this opportunity of observing-,
that the' West Indians themselves were very supine in matters
which concerned their own affairs.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he
had taken-the course which he was convinced• was the heist
adapted to answer the end of the Hon. Members who wished
for a discussion upon this subject. -He considered that that
discussion would best take place upon the introduction of the
Bill for the purpose in. question. As to the supineness of the
West Indians, he - had no:..ing to do with that. He had
never held out that any great benefit would accrue to
the West Indians from the remission of duty proposed.—
He had resolved upon the reduction in question, because
it was one which promoted a good and sound principle, and
that was all. -If, therefore; any delusion had been practised, it
was not chargeablo upon him. With -regard to the rectifiers,
he considered it was his duty to watch the effect of the Distillery
Bill of last year, and that he would do infinite prejudice to the
whole concern were he hastily to interfere with the existing
arrangements upon, this subject. fie considered that he could
not do worse to the country than to put too many irons in this
fire at once, and take theni all out at the lama time: If al-
lowed to go on slowly he expected he should be able to do 'a
thousand times more good to the country, than in the hasty
adoption of any ill-digested schemes.—(Fleur!)
Mr. 13ERNAL complained of the uncertainty in which
the rum merchants were placed, from the want of an accu-
rate
knowledge of the intentions of the Chancellor of the Ex-
-
chequer.
Mr. ROSE LLLIS thought that greater benefit was to be
expected to the rum market frord the measures of the Chan- ,
cellor of the Exchequer, than seemed to be anticipated by the
liOn;Member opposite. ,
. .

The Petition Was then read, and ordered to-be printed.
Sir G. 'CLERK presented a Petition from the 'Candle--
makers of Edinburgh, against the duty an tallow.—Ordered to
be printed. . .
M
tbe
3lEnpresentedand
ShoemakersPetitio o
nsft:ofm meila
Greenwich;' v
Ber-
wick,r ainidU
CoMbination Laws.—Referred to the Committe on Artisans.
ee :s:
against of
tleMr. TIgRNEY presented a similar Petition from the Jour-
.iinnwavree
dshfoorrotatngl
al.c--colukenfrrteofe.dsu tmo s tphaeidC.
n e
Ltionredn
A.LI, Weaverso jot fr
mittee on Artisans.
dur
ing the last seven years under the Insurrection Act, the Peace
Act, and the Constabulary Act, in. Ireland.—Orderett-
00in,
tahtenmotoiotilofolVfltri.lJe .cAsilltipu:ri.critsrdry,ts:tuorfn
twhaesroxrdceiriezdaouf
xthne
amount of Duties on Stems for the last year.
the Report of the Committee of Supply 'was brought up.
Mr. HUME objected to the -vote- 'tat the Education of the
Poor in Ireland. He thought this money ought not to be
placed in the hands of the Kildare street Society. The..plan.
of education adopted by them was one in-which the Catholics
could not join, and it was upon that
ground. that he objected
to their having the disposal of the funds. The only
-ques-
tion between the Protestants and the Catholics was, whether the
Bible could be used with or without comment. .But thia would
appear to be very unimportant, when he stated that not many
years ago the Bible Society of this country and the Church of
England were at Variance ml the very same subject. A similar
schism had existed with reference to the Bell and Lancasterian
modes of education, but great advantage had since been ob-
tained from the union of the two Systems.
Mr. BUTTERWORTII contended that if the poor of Eng-
land were educated with proper religious instruction, then the
peer of Ireland must be educated-with insufficient or erroneous
religious instruction. Ile spoke of the Catholics, and he must
say that the observations of the Catholic Bishops cast a reflec-
tion on Christianity. -
The rote was then agreed to. ,
Mr. HUME made some observations on the vote for the
pictures of the late Mr. Angerstein. He hoped these pictures
-would be put where•they would he seen by the public, and not
like the monuments of Westminster Abbey, which were not to
be seen without the payment Of two shillings. It was felt to
be a most extraordinary proceeding by the greater part of the
nation.

Mr. BEAUMONT hoped that Marlborough House would
be selected as the place for the exhibition of the pictures of the
late Air. Angerstein. •

Mr. WYNN said, it was much to be regretted that the Exe-
cutive had no means of redress against the Dean and Chapter of
Westminster for the exclusion of the public.
'Mr. BANKES said, that the eharrTe-ut the door was 6d. and
to see the rest of the monuments Is. (id.

Sir J. WROTTESLEY thought it .was a paltry extortion
on the part of the Dean and Chapter of Westminster.—_
Ile had been refused a passage through the Abbey without
paying 2s: •
Mr. BENNET said, that they ought to build some place to
put these public monuments in, that the public might see them
without being subjected to'the miserable and dirty extortion of
the Clergy of Westminster. He. wished to get those valuable
articles out of their clutches altogether.
Mr. HUME complained. of .the- amount of charges for Con-
sulage in the Mediterranean, which he said were twice the
amount of the American charges. He also complained of the
ascendancy. of a certain Company, who exercised undue con-
troul•in that quarter .of the globe over the. British Government.
Mr. Secretary CANNING said, that he was fully sensible
of the anomaly and inconvenience of the matter stated by the
Hon. Member. He assured the Hon. Member that an fin-
provement was in contemplation.
The remaining votes of the Committee were then read and
agreed to by the House.
BUILDING CHURCHES.
The House having 'rel-olved itself into a
,Committee on the
Church Building Acts,
The CH ANCLI.LOR of the EXCHEQUER said he should
not, upon this occasion, have troubled the House with any re-
marks, but for the. remarks which had been made at the time
he' first intimated the grant for building Churches.' Ile con,
fessed 'that he was 'much surprised at the opposition- then
offered to the grant. Ile certainly did not expect those who
dissented from the. Church Of England to be very anxious
`to promote such a proposal, but neither did he expect that
Dissenters from the Church of England, or- any Christians,.
indeed, would object to the principle of building Churches for
the freqUenters of the Church of England. In stating this
he assumed that he was able to shew that there was - a defi-
ciency of these Churches. He certainly should have expected
from all who professed Christianity, that the proposition was
prima...pas good in itself, and therefore his Ur4ti)/lISII Inent was
the greater at the opposition. 'What, however, was his sur-
prise, when he heard the proposal to build churches de-
nounced as..blasphemous !—( Hear, hear !)--"-He line* it was'
difficult to assign the legal meaning to that word, nor was
he now going to make such an attempt ; hut this certainly
iras the first time that such a meaning had been given to it.

uld
hitltitinswme
proposition
rsg9t liopintotcisbol
:sent
opiinconsistent
pton togsicontendedieny,ei
atti
ihnwir
at that
to-apply
eiaotpl, nt6t
not oitnPO remitmgthla°tt:
we n to osed
ay hhbterctohdtuheolag-wdt
be condemned as bad in itself, it. passed his humble com-
prehension to conceive. Another .objection was made', to the
proposition, which appeared"to him a singular one. ' was
said that it was absurd to call - upon the people at large to
contribute.to.the building of these churches; becanse amongst
theni Dissenters might be found - whom it wOuld-he.onjust to
tax for such an object. :If this principle were carried to its
test, it would result, that they could have no established
Church at all. They voted every year • a suni of money for
the education of the Catholics, which he considered to be in-
consistent with any prinCiple of the kind contended for. No one
'had deified that it was material theta further sum should be
adVinced for this purpose. Fronr the papers before the House
it would be seen that after all that had been done; deonsiderable
number of persons were still left without the means of religious
'instruction. He knew that there were many aged and infirm
persons.who could not attend divine worship, and dissenters
who ought to be_taken from the account, but from this Report
it would be seen that there were 179 places cOntaining•a popu-
lation of 3,548,000, in which there was no church accommoda-
tion for more than 500,000 persons, or about one out of seven.
Many were in consequence• precluded from attending divine
Worship according to the frame of the Church of England. The
cause of this want of accommodation might' be ascribed to the
immense increase of our population which had outstripped
all ealcidation, and left those parishes which had forMerly suf-
ficient room .in their places of- worship without the means
of accommodating those who would willingly attend them.
Many of the parishes thus- situated were too poor to be
able to build for themselves,, if they were 'not assessed by
the Public. He considered it would be to shew a' most un-
worthy indifference to the interests of the church and to those
of the people if assistance" were- withheld-. A great anxiety: for
religious instruction had been manifested. The Churches,
which were already completed, had been crowded to the great
benefit, comfort, and consolation of those who frequented them.
Tnhave those who were anxious for religious instruction to
seek it as chance might direct them, would, in his opi-'
nion be to.neglect. their duty'rei a-Christian Legislature. 'lt
was 'desirable to see what had been already done, and thence
judge whether there was not 'room to hope, that from an addi-
tional grant a corresponding benefit might. be derived. Ile did
not mean to say that a new grant of 500,000/. would afrord
all the accommodation which he could wish to sec afforded.
But if they could not do all that was desirable at once, it was
proper that they should now accomplish as-much as they could.
and do more when a fit opportunity should offer. The sum of
1,000,0001. which had already been granted for building
churches, had not only done all that was expected from it, but
had exceeded the calculations and the hopes Of the Conimis-
sioners. They had expected it to furnish the means of build-
ing eighty-five churches, which would accommodate 140,000
persons. But the result•was, that 95 churches had been built;
or were now, building, which would offer' seats for 153,000 par-
soas. It ought to be known that the sum of two hundred
thousand pounds had been subscribed . in aid of the onenid-
lion which had been granted by Parliament, and by means
of the subscriptions, additional means for the 'accononoda-
tion of 13,000 persons had been provided. The fact which
he had just stated proved that professors of the church were
not so supine as they had been represented to be, and that they
were not resolved to do nothing but what they were ena-
bled to do by
,the extravagance, or, as some might think it,
the profligacy, of Parliament. He would refer to one or two
particular cases, to shew the good which had been effected by
the former grant. The-Right.Hon. Gentleman then proceeded
to rea.d.papers relative to the attendance at the new Churches
at Blackburn, Birmingham, Nottingham, Portsea, Ringwood,
and Trinity Chapel,, Bath. These; which were letters from
Clergymen, described the attendance tO be good, most of the
pet's which were to be let were- taken, and generally the
greatest- practical benefit was realized, , from the effects- Of
the grant. He had trembled the House with these- state-
ments to refute the assertion, that when the Churches were.
erected they would not be well filled. Ile had sheath that
the Ministers were not likely to preach to empty 'Wall., and"
having •already granted' ono.'.tnillion to 'erect 'new Churches;
he-thought if the present grant were refused now, when they
were much richer than before, and' could spare the sum ten
times better.. it. would be -most extraordinary. He did not
believe the House would ' act so niggardly and miserable .a,
part, or that they would _view this as a mere question of
pounds, shillings, and pence.. .He knew that it -might be
said that as this sum would not suffice to afford all the ac-
commodation that was wanted-why did he not ask -for more ;
that lie took too little, or he took too much. He should
ever not ask for more; but he had no difficulty in saying, that
if it were the pleaiure of Parliament to appropriate a larvr
sum to this purpose, it would not, be a misapplication of the
public money. He, hOwever, "should move for no in -re than
the sum which he had first mentioned,- as he felt that if the
bounty of Parliament were to extend beyond reasonable bounds,
'those friendly to the Church would not have that inducement t)
exert themselves which it was' desirable should continue to ope-
rate on them. Hi concluded by. calling on the House to eanc-
tion :the grant; -and thus contribute to promote an object Which
they must feel to be of no' small importance to the country.__
Notwithstanding the 'observations which had been thrown out
when the subject was first mentioned, he seas confident that the
Bill which he desired to bring in would pass with but little op-
position. He moved a Resolution to " enable his Majesty to
give directioni that ;xchequer Bills to the amount of 50,0eu.
shOuld be issued to the 'Commissioners appointed to promote
the building:of additional Churches and chapels, to be by them
applied according to the regulations of Acts of Parliament
passed or to be passed."
Mr. HOBHOUSE admitted the question, relating as it did
to the religion 'of the people, to be one of no small importance.
He was aware of the delicate ground on which he stood, as
some observations had been thrown out relative to those who
were indifferent about such matters. He did not stand as the
representative of the indifferent of the country ; but as the
representative of the people Of Westminster, he, thought, by
opposing the present motion, he should best consult their
feelings, and those of the people of England. The Right Hon.
Gentleman had spoken of them being very rich, but he had'not
proved that they
.were so. If, however, a want of religious in-
struction were one of the immediate 'wants of the people, he
should be disposed to vote for the proposition of the Chancellor of
the Exchequer. This however, did not appear to be the case, and
if it were he olui
akvie d the ma
hiabvuen thought,
en thes °f. e
Churchcorre
thighly,ntheg
ebeneficedvliiht.
as
cnitcwansi might
ng to the public. The Right Hon. Gentleman had Said
he had not objected to the grant for a like purpose for Scotland.
But in Scotland there was no established churches highly be-
neficed as here, on which such charges could be 'thrown. Be-
cause there a grant had been made in aid of the PreSbyterian
Church of Scotland, it by no means followed that a vote. like
the present ought to pass. There had been no call for new
Churches—not a single Petition on "this subject had beetere-
ceived. He, however, believed that the religious feelings 'of
the country had greatly increased of late years..—(llear !)
By • that cheer he understood he was supposed to have ad-
vanced something which 'made against his own argument.—
He believed religion had become more prevalent among the
people of late years, but by that he did not mean since the'
grant of one million had been -made to erect additional
Churches, but he believed that it had been on the increase
from the period of the French Revolution. For the forty-
three applications • which were said to have been made for
assistance in this way, 'these did not at all surprise him,' as
whenever Parliament should make it known that a portion
of the public money was to be given away he had no
doubt there would be a sufficient number of persons ready
to receive it. They were told that sufficient means were
not provided for the accommodation of the people with re-
spect to religious instruction: In six out of the . eight
parishes it was represented that one hundred and thirty-three
thousand persons were thus circumstanced. 'He had enquired
into this. .In the parish of St. George, Hanover-square,
there was supposed to be 33,477 deficiencies. This, 'by the
bye,. was assumed from a reference to the census of 1821; which
included all persons living there, among whom were many in-
fants anti others who could in no case ‘atthnd' a public place of
.worship. 'lhe Church of St. George, Hanover-square, was
certainty thronged ; and at St. James's the excellent man who
there officiated was 80 attended, that to 'obtain a pew it was
necessary to engage it seven years before hand. An applicant
for a scat was promised to be put on the'liet, but more could
not lie looked for..' But in-the parish of. St. George there were
three chapels of ease. .The first of these 'at which he inquired
could have-furnished one hundred places ; tile second was not'.
full ; the third was: -' In St. Ann's Church, it was stated that"
there was a deficiency of room for fourteen thousand persons.
There was no chapel of ease in that
parish, which contained
but about twelve or fourteen hundred houses, but he found

PRICE StVENPlikeii.-

there was nlenty ofrOOmin this Cfnirch., So the statenaes
of a deficiency to the' itinount einted was incorrect. In the
next parish the deficiencies were 26,319, but then therein* a
chapel of ease; in which placeetwere to be, obtained. In, St.
Martin in the. Fields, • the 'deficiencies were 'reported 23,761,
but Seats were eaey,tei beigOt.... In St.. Margaret's parish,. Me
deficiencies were said to be .10,889. The church was full, but
in that parish there were three chapels of case, where seats
Might be obtained without difficulty. In the Parish of Saint
•TOlits, • iogin was wanted for '14,830 additional personae—
• That• Church, howeVer, was not at all full, and one of the
•sextona had • told him" that -when a sermon, which war ex-
pected to bring a crowd, was preached; there had been room
for more than 100 peeeona. There were inetancee of defi-
ciencies of reoml in the.Dissenters' Chapels, but this was no
• argument in favour of assisting Dissenters to build additional
places or worship. He did not think that ought to be!
done. The attendance at Church had not fallen off, and there-
was ecaece a tradesman. in Westminster who did not take his
family to a place of worship on Sunday, and who would sot be
pointed at if he were riot Oslo so. upon She whole be was of opi-
nion that a general want of accommodation for the purposes of
religious instruction had .not been.iproved. It appeared that
the 4,090;0001:
,expendid "in building Churches had provided
aecOmModation for 133,000 .persons. It followed. that the'
500,0091. now to be voted would preside for about 77,000 more.
The Chancellor of .the Exchequer had said he would not stop
hero, but proceed by degrees as- Parliament might see fit. But
going on at this rate, did the House consider what it would
cost to proVide for the 3,024,148, deficiencies which weep
stated ,to exist? It Would. cost the country no less than
26,000,0001. He thought the present,motion unnecesiary, and
nexist
in
that 'the intended grant might be served by. instituting don*
service, or even treble service, as was .cannion on the Conti
neat. Ile had another. plan to propose, which .had already
been suggested by his Hon. Friend the Member for -Mid-
hitt:Ste namely,' that congregations should be allowed to mi.
point their own"pastor, subject: tn the approbation of Ihk
Bishop of the diocese, who ought to possess a -Veto in such
cases ; and if the privilege of choosing their blinisters were
granted' to theni; •he thought the professors .of the Church
would' provide plea Of worship .for themselves. Since he
had been one of the 'Members for Westminster, in which it
Was stated theee'Were 133,000' deficiency, he thought his doors
had been open to all, and. though all sorts of other complaints
hid been brought under his notice, his, constithentaisad never
called his attention' to this subject. Considering there was not
that went of accommodation for the people generally, which;
Right on. Gentlean had supposed, he begged to move
the following Resolutions:— 7-
" That it appears to this Committee, that the sum Of
1,000,0001. sterling has been already granted out of the pidie
lie revenues, and that the number of indielduals accommoe
dated in the chuiches provided, or about to be provided, by•
means of that grant, would not exceed, 163,886.
" That it appears to this Committee that a further sum of
• money is now called 'for by the Chancellor of the Exchequer,.
for the' same purport.purport.• "-That it appears to. this Committee,, that in 179 Parishes
only, snore than 3:000.000 of persons are stated by the Parlia.:
mentary • Returns to be still• unprovided with this requisite.'
accommodation; and that, according to the rate of experice-
incurred by providing for the deficiencies already caused, to
• provide for those stated to exist in the 179 parishes, would
pitliee isartso f the country. 2
cost the country nearly 20,000,0001., besides what might be.
wan
modes of providing wanted
fora like purposevidink
furn o
any
" That it appears to . this Committee that therearc otherseveral-
deficiencies
that
the accommodation provided for the religious instruction of
the 'people,. according to the principles of the .Established
Church.
• " That it therefore appears to this Committee that it is inex-
pedient to make any further -grant for the erection of new
churches."
Mr. Secretary PEEL said nothing could be more -fair
.thas
the principle, and nothing more liberal and becoMing than the
tone in which the Hon. Gentleman had oppoiked the motion.—
The
lion. Gentleman adinitted that if a want of religious in- •
strUctierf weraproied, such a grant was proper; and declared
that in such a case he would be among the foremost to support
it. ' He however had attempted to contravert the statements of
his Right Hon. Friend, and to shake the validity of the argu-
ments drawn from those statements. It would be his (Mr.
Secretary* Peel's) object to shew that he bad not succeeded.—
The Hon. Gentleman considered the present motion was Un-
necessiary, liecause it had not heen called for by the people.
He, however, was not disposed to consider an indifference
•
aboutreligious instruction a proof that.such a measure was un-
necessary, but should rather be disposed to argue the contrary. •
, from that very circumstance. The Honourable Gentleman
, should hoWever recollect, that applications for assistance in.
this respect had been made previous to the year 1817, and since,.
to' the Commissioners who had sat, which,, but for their
sitting, 'would have come before the House. The Honourable
Gentleman had stated that no complaints had been made to Mat
on this subject by the people of Westminster ; and that on in-
quiry, that several of the churches and chapels were full, but
that others were riot so. It might not be improper to ask if.
thoSe chapels which were not full were.those in which free ad
mission was given to the poor. The object of the present •
measure was to secure free admission to those who could
not afford to pay. But the Hon. Gentleman contended that •
as the present vote would only provide for the accommodation-
e'f but 77,000 persons, it was doing a mere nothing, and not
worth doing at all. But was it an argument against doing any ,
thing that all which might be desired could not be done. Ha
referred the Honourable Gentleman to the salutary effects
produced in many cases by one member of a family going to - -
a place of worship.' The presence of one person who had so:
frequently rebuked and corrected the improper habits of
others, and parents had in many cases been redefined from the
vicious practices in which they had indulged by their children
who' had had the benefit of religious instruction. The be •'
nefits derived from religious worship were not . lireited
the effects produced on those who actually attended a place
of worship. He hoped to be able to show the Honourable
Gentleman that the vote was not so useless in point of amount.
as he might suppose. He thought, in looking at the populae
tion of a place, they ought to make an 'allowance for infants
and infirm and other persons, who,. from various reasons,
could not attend a place of worship. ' He was not quite sure.
Olathe ought to exempt' the Dissenters from the number of
those who would attend a church if accommodation were pro-- •
vided, as many went to dissenting. chapels not because they
objected to the rites of the church, but because they preferred •
hearingelivine worship in those chapels to none at all. Mak..
ing the proper deductions, he did not think it unreasonable to • •
suppose that a fourth part , remained who desired church ae- •
commodations. Supposing the inhabitants of a place to
amount to 10,000, he thought, lie might, calculate that 2,600-
Would be anxious to receive religious instruction, and on this
supposition it would be seen that a grant of 600,0804 might
enable the GovernMent to do much good. The population of
Manchester amounted to 187,000. The fourth part of them
was about 46,929. Now as .of this number, 22,468 were at
present accommodated, it followed that but 24,461 remained to •
he 'provided for. At Birmingham the population exceeded
100,000 Perkins. The fourth of these was 25,000. Of that
number,l6,ooo were already accommodated with the means of
obtaining religious instruction, and but 10,000 remained to proe
vide for. At Leeds, the population amounted to 84,000. The
fourth Part beieg about 20,000, and 10,000 being now aceom-.
modated, it remained to furnish the means of religious instrue- •
tion according to
,the principles of the Established Church en •
about ten thousand persons more—diminishing -thus the .three- •
millions of persona wanting the means of religious instruction,
it would be seen how important the grant would reee.
which it was propOied to take. If it were not -so, -nothing .
could be' more fallacioes than to argue becauee.4oo,ooo/. is tots
smell a Sum to effect all we could wish, we will therefore de
nothing. He would say, they ought-to .do what they could,
in-the hope that the. seed now sown would produce a future
harvest of great advantage to the country. But the Hon. Gen-
tleman had said, why not institute a double . service 1' He ad--
witted this to be an expedient which might co-operate with-
the grant ; but that which the Hon. Gentleinan had suggeeted, -
was already done. He knew that in many places treble service.-
was performed, and in some instances, he believed five services •
were performed. It would thus be seen that the principle's
contended for by the Hon. Gentleman had been carried further• •
than he had proposed that it should be carried. But in some,
populons place§ there was a difficulty in doing this, as other •
religious ceremonies were to be, performed 'which-ought not se •
be hurried over. Marriages, burials, and • baptisms, were to-
he attended to, and in addition to these :at different periods •
the Sacrament. , He doubted much the policy .of encouraging.-- •
congregations to build chapels, by allowing them to choose'
their own pastors. The plan might not be unworthy of consi-
deration, but they ought to adopt it with great caution. He
would state the situation of several populous places, such, /10

lialifax, Weis:ill, and Froome. At Froome the population
amounted to 12,500, with accommodation in churches and cha.
peis for 930, and conseqeently 11,600 remained unprovidect
ter. At 'Walsall the population was •12,000 e of these 7,000
were provided with the moans or giving religious instruction.
eft Halifax there was a population of 92,000 souls, ant1..85,480
--were without the means of perforniing Divine Worship. HE
-might increase the list, lint without -doing so, he would ask
oily Man to say that such was a state of things that ought to,
exist. It was fit that the Legislature Should interfere and, pro-
, vide for these people, who, though poor, were the sinews of
tioi state, whenever extraordinary exertions were required. It
cod, therefore, appear to him that no sound objection could
oor made to the appropriation of half a million to such an im-
portant and necessary purpose. The application of the last
million which Parliament had devoted to the same object was
-perfectly satisfactory, and there was nothing to fear on that
head in case the present grant were made ; and if the expen-
diture of this half million should provide the means of reli-
Pious worship to one out •of eighty thousand families. it would
'demure good' than could be obtained by tie use of any half
million applied in any other way. He should therefore give
his vote most cordially in favour of the grant.—(llear co • .
Mr. J. SMITH said,-that if we had such a sum as 500,000/.
to spare, it could be applied to much better purposes than
Aat of building churches. _lt had always been his opinion that
their lino duty was that of providing education for the poor, and
all nicalern authors from Helvetius downwards had declared
ei.elacation to be the basis of all improvements-in society. He
believed that the vices of the lower classes in the country were
entirely to be attributed to their want of moral and religious
instruction. Ho had beeninvited to visit the prisons of Paris,
and he had alio attended the Courts of Justice in that Metro.
atolls, and it was with shame as an Engliehrnanand a Protestant,
enat he found the proportion of -vicious crime and of cruelty
tio much smaller than it was in this great City,. He believed
that the difference was entirely owing .to the education given
- .the: poor in France. There was a school there that he
.• hel. been made acquainted with, the beautiful effects of
• which would not be believed by the House if' he were to state
them. Oat of 240 children that had been educated there upon
• the Lancasterian system, not one was ever known to commit
. a crime. These children were also taken from the lowest
classes. He had turned his attention to the state of education.
this country, and he found that amongst the agricultural
mtees, who were the most ignorant, there was' the most vice.
,hue the Ountry was left in so lamentable a want of inetruc-
Jinn-, it•was little less than blasphemy to expend 500,0001. in
-eke building -of churches. He was quite certain that in London
tbere was no necessity for applying}, the public money to such
oittrOoses. If left to themselves the pesiple would not fail to
:provide churches whenever they were wanted. In proof of
-this, the Hon. Member alluded-to a church, the name of which
see could not hear, that was built by voluntary contribetion.—
Re admitted that there were particular places, and he could
.name some in Lancashire, where churches were necessary, and
=zooid not be supplied by the people; • but they would require
ion such sum as ;sOO 0001. The expence would be covered by
..140,000/., • 0r150,000/. ' - and if a grant to that extent were pro-
opesede he would give it his support: But lie should feel it his
duty to oppoee the present motion.
D•
ie-LIISHINGTON said that the arguments of the Hon.
,Gentleman had failed to, convince him that this grant of
5e0,040/. was not due to the people. So far was he from agree-
ing with the opponents of the measure, that he considered it to
be an act of justice and duty on the part of that House. The
old.laws of the land compelled all classes of the people who
professed the religion of the Church to attend public worship.
How then, he would ask, could they leave tfic people in their
present state, when the poor had no means of complying with
the law, and what was of infinite more importance, when theye
Zonel no means of conforming to the first duties of religion.'
- These; :tie thought, were sufficient grounds to justify the voting
cfehe -stem proposed. But if he looked to the consequences of
leaving .olle people in-such a state, he wes still more strongly
impressed with the imperative nature of the necessity for re-
moving it. The first unavoidable consequence must be, that
tee people absented themselves altoge:her from the service of
• (sods or they were driven to the meetions of the Dissenters' He:
did not mean to allude disrespectfully or with 'intolerance to
any class or.botly, but he was desircius to give the church fair,
';Play—(Hear, hear, hear!)—and to see tient it had the same
means and opportunities as its enemies. It was well known
that the people were assailed in every possible-way, in order.
to make them secede from the worship of the Established
.Church: - There Iris a Home Missionary Society established,
al which the Missionaries were almost exclusively Dissentere,
and these were finding their way into almost every parish in
.the kingdom. He' hellin his hand a paper which contained
as . account of their proceedings in that dark district, the
aunty of 'Worcester. He slid not know whether any of the
unemners for Worcester were present, but if they were, he
hoped they would be able to answer for the -unenlightened
ciao. of that county. The was a report from some of the M is-
sionerien to whom he had alluded, and it stated the horrible
facts, that the boys played against each other at foot-ball on
Sundays, were seen in the fields with sticks, went into the
river to catch fish with nets, and moreover, the boys and
--the girls assembled together ! The paper went on to state,
that .Christianity could not endure under such a state of things,
eand • that they must go from house to house and convert the
people from their errors. He (Do Lueltington) objected to
The progress of such doctrines by such means, and thought
:.here calculated to deteriorate the British character, and to
be
,productive of infinite misery.— (Ilear, hear, hear!)—
Me found also that there were regular monthly preaehings, at
which three preachers were announced to relieve each other in
• succession, to attract audiences and gain subscriptions for the
support of their chapels. Ile knew he should be asked why the
people did not subscribe to build churches. The answer was
that in all times the people of England had been accustomed to
have churches proviucd for them, and that the poor, for whom
-churches were wanted, were not able to build them. No activity
on the part of the members of the church could avail, if the
people had not the means of attending its worship. - Ile did net
think this was a state of things which that House, the large ma.
jeritee of which were of the Established Church, would wish to
sea continued. At all events he would do his utmost to change it.
With regard to the right of presentation to the new churches,
the Hon. and LearnefGent. expressed his opinion that. the con-
-sent of the incumbeat should be dispensed with: But he would
have no election. That practice exited in some cases, and
he once had the honour of being counsel at one in tile City.
The contest lasted five days,. and there was a regular scrutiny,
and, every appearance of a political election. Now he thought
ail this was degrading to the character of a Clergyman. It
wee unbecoming his character to be canvassing-votes and soli-
citing favours as the ground of his elevation to an office whose
subsequent ditties were of so serious and important a nature.
Besides this, he did not think such a mode of appeintment cal-
culated to place the most proper persons in much situations.
People were often induced to give their votes upon any but

the true merits that were requi-red, and many referred those
•Clergymen who were inclined to send them to the world below
with the least scruple. lie thought the duty cf a Clergyman of
the Church of England was to maintain those doctrines he had

-sworn 'to maintain.
and to stoop for favours to no man.—
(fl..r, hear!)—lt had b2en said, that churches, if wanted,

mold be built by voluntary subscription in London, and one
chapel had been selected as an example. Such places were
very good for the rich, hut at this identical chapel the seats
were. the dearest in London. He denied that sufficient means
of public worship were possessed by the people of Westmin-
ster. Ile lived in Westminster, and (it was a duty to which
he eheerfollysithinitted) he was obliged to pay a considerable
sum fur seats for his servants.—He would again ask how the
poor were to obtain Divine worship under such circumstances.
He knew, that within a mile of where they 'sat, there were
thousands and tens of thowamds who were unable to attend

the church for the same reasons. He would now state that he
thought the last million appropriated to this object had been ex-
tcndeil upon too large a scale ; and that much more accommo-
dation might be afforded to the poor at less expence. When
they came into a Committee on the Bill, he shculd propose a
clause relative to this part of the question; and another to pro-
vide that none of the Churches built by the benevolence of Par-
liament should be tenable with any other benefice. The last
observation he bad to make, was to express his hope that the
Right [lon. Gentleman would find means of appointing to these
Chapels without the consent of the Incumbent, taking care
never to dispense with that of the Diocesan. He would once
more declare his cordial approbation of the vote, which he was
confident would be acceptable to the people at large. Ile said
so because • he was confident that the people at large felt the
want of it—and so long as that want continued to be felt, so
long would vice and crime go on increasing.—(Cheers.) -
Mr. HUME said that he should not have troubled the [louse,
but after the speech he had just heard, he could not sit still.—
(Dear !).—lle had never heard a speech so little applicable to
:th7 question before the House. The Learned Gentleman had first

.Ittisicpt:e.sented the intention of the Acts of Elizabeth, which

compelled people to go to Church, and which were exclusively
against the Church of Rome. The paper he had introduced
could oniy have been used to induce the House to go into a
crusade against the Dissenters. He knew not whose writing
the document was—it might, for what he knew, be written by
the Learned Gentleman himself.—(A laugh.)--,But it could
have been introduced for no other purnose than that he had
described. Diddle Hon. and Learned Member mean to deny
that these missionaries had done good, or that there was any
thir, so ridiculous in their wishing to abolish the games
he had described on a Sunday ? If so, let him look to the lan-
guage and conduct of Wesley, whom Southey had described as
having done the .greatest benefit to the Church by pointing out
its ahuses. He had procured an account of the number of places
or ren_gious worship, and he found that in 1881 parishes there
were 2533 churches, and that the dissenting places of worship
*amounted to 3413, being one. third ;nor:: thsa those afforded

bey the Church Estaltiliihment. He contended that election to
the churches would greatly improve the state of its members.
lie thought the revenues of the Church were too great ; they
were larger than those of any other country except Ireland,
and they ought to be revised so as to ascertain whether they
could not bear the aspences of building new churches. The
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite said that the people were
rich and happy. H.edenied it, and maintained that 'the work-
ing classes were all in the most extreme state of poverty. They
had therefore no sight to take this 50t000/. front the pockets
of the people, because it was a god-seed, and constituted one-
fourth of all they would receive in return, for 21;000,0001.,
which they had paid. Minisrers thought they might do this,
because they were in some grace and favour with the public—
at least they said they were—(a laugh)--and he believed they
were. But it was only because those who went before them
were so bad. It was only by comparison of degrees. He denied
the justice of calling on the Dissenters to pay for such a grant.
If the Right Hon. Gentleman would introduce a Bill, inviting
the inhabitants of large towns to contribute to the building of
churches-where neceseary, he had no doubt that many persons
would be quite ready to acqniesce, provided that a Committee
of five or ten of the parishioners might be allowed to nominate
the Clergyman. fie would admit that all candidates should be
obliged to produce the qualifications from a Bishop who should
finee,examined them. That examination he thought was not a
very difficult ordeal if he might judge from those he met with
101-0 had passed it. It was well known that officers who had
.bed a gay dashing life in the army, navy, and marines, had
'got through it without much trouble. The Honourable and
Learned Gentlemen said he wished to give the Church fair
play. The Church could not have fair play, until they put an
end to non-residents and pluralities. Its members must have
zeal and activity to give it fair play ; --and he would . say, that
those who did not choose to have duty, should have no benefice.
The Hon. Member adverted to a Meeting at Manchester for
the building.uf Churches. When the question fbr building
new churches in Manchester was put, the opposition was great,
and, on a scrutiny, the proposition was negatived by a large
majority. A communication was vent to Lord Sidmoutin
stating that new chueches were not required. Notwithstanding
that representation, the Commissioners were of opinion that
new churches should be built. The Ilon. Member was ena-
bled to say the churches were badly attended.
Dr. LUSIIINGTON disclaimed all hostility to Dissenters,
-and was assured nothing he had said could warrant an inference
That lie had ever entertained such hostility. His hope was that
the House would vindicate him against the misrepresetltstion
of the Hon. Member for Montrose.
Mr. G. BANKES had always found the `churches in Lon-
don tilled to repletion. If the Hon. M ember - for Aberdeen
would attend at the doors of St. Pancras Church, he would find
that church numerously attended. The Hon. Member appeared
to forget .another object which might be gained by new
churches, namely, the union of sexes—(a laugh)—he should
have said sects. Much advantage had been derived in that re-
Spect in Ireland.
Mr. W. SMITH was convinced his Hon. Friend (Dr. Lush-
ington) had misrepresented himself. lie was convinced his
lion. Friend felt more liberal opinions than the Hon. Member
for Aberdeen had supposed. Ile abjured entering into reli-
gious argument, hut was ready at all times to discuss the poli-
tical part of the question.
Lord PALMERSTON said the House on a fernier occasion
had been ready to vote a million for the purpose then under
discussion, but now when a surplus was in the hands of Go-
vernment applicable to the purpose; there was considerable
hesitation to give half that sum. The increase of population
rendered Churches necessary.
_The people required instruc-
tion in Churches, or they would be thrown on the Sectariars
'to receive that instruction they could not obtain from the
Established Church. The Noble Lord wished to see no diffe-
rence in religious principles, but could not say he should
be anxious to find Dissenters increase. If they denied
the people the means of frequenting their. temples of war-
ship here, could they expect to keep up the Church Establish-
ment. The Noble Lord adverted to the good effects produced
be frequenting places of worship. In Scotland, where the
lower classes were instructed by their pastors, every thing was
conducted with decency anti order. In Ireland it was quite
the reverse. Every thing was vicious and lawless,. because-the
minds of children were not impressed with - good examples.
The object in building churches might be •considered the
a,ivancement of education. The Noble Lord was persuaded
the application of 00,000/. to the intended purpose, would
greatly•promote the interest of the public.
Mr. GORDON observed, that he was greatly surprised
when the Chancellor of the Exchequer first mentioned the sub-
ject, and proposed to appropriate the money to building
churches : but when he heard the speech of the Learned Civilian,
he changed his opinion. He had attended to the Hon. Member
for Aberdeen, and was obliged to say he never heard a speech
which he disapproved of so much.—(ll ear !)--The speech of
ti at l ion. Member had determined, him to vote for his Majesty's
Ministers on the present occasion. He was more, particularly
disposed to do so from the great exertions need by M!s!iionarics
to Kaiu proselytes. This was a cantireg and hyp -critical
—a he canting, did not come from Ministers of the Church of
England, but from those canting dissenting Missionaries. Be-
cause he would deprive them of their influence, he should vote
tar the motion.

The cluestion being loudly called for, thc.Heuse.divided--
. For the Resolutions • 148
For the Amendment
Majority
- RUM DUTIES.

-89

The report of the Committee on the Rum Duties Act was
received, the Rciolutions agreed to, and a Bill ordered to be ,
brought in thereupon. -
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER proposed to
take ,the discussion on, the Bill on Thursday.
'the other Orders of the I fay were disposed of and the House
adjourned at ONE O'CLOCK.

THE GREEKS.

[From the Etaile, dated Thursdayl

SEMLIN, MARCH '21.--The people have risen
most parts -of Albania. They began by ex-
pelling all the Turkish authorities, who were
mmediately replaced by the natives of the couti.
Lry. It appears that they were English agents
ho succeeded in effecting a strict alliance be_
vs yen the Albanians and the. Greeks. Letters
'rom Biaxits of the 7th of March even give the
:artieulars.

TRIESTE. MARCH 24.--A vessel Nchich has ar-
rived from A lexandrette, in Syria, in 20 days,
brings the news of the Declaration of Independ-
ence, by the Viceroy of Egy pt.— (Jugs/meg Ga-
zette, March 26.)
PARIS, APRIL 7.—Letters from Odessa, of
16th March, say—" We received some days ago
news from Constantinople, of the 6th of this
month. The revolt of the Pacha of Egypt was
still talked of. To-day we have letters of the
10th, which repeat and confirm this great event;
and the vessels which the Porte sent to Alexandria
for grain have returned empty. The news of the
surrender of Patras to the Greeks, which was
spread at the same moment, completed thecon-
sternation of the Divan.--The Grand Vizier is so
dangerously ill, that the Sultan visits him every
day."