The Sun.
London, England, 1840-05-22 00:00:00

EVEN ING RI) ITION

Agreed to.
The SPEAKER then called upon Mr. French, who
had a notice of motion on the paper for a Select Com-
mittee t 3 inquire into the allegations contained in the
petition of Mr. W. Roberts, presented on the 3d of April,
but the Non. Member not being in the House,
Mr. WARBURTON said the Hon. Member for Ros-
common had not acted fairly towards the Hen. Member
for Lambeth and himself.—(Cries of " Order, order.")
He intended to conclude with a motion.—(" Order,
order," " Chair, chair.")
The SPEAKER said the Hon. Member mu3t be aware
that it was quite out of order when the name of an Hon.
Alember was called, fur another Hon. Member to get up
and propose any other motion. If he had any motion to
bring forward he should wait to offer his observations to
the House until the notice paper had been gone regularly
through.

WEST INDIA MAILS.
Mr GODSON was a!xious, as he had stated in an early
part of the evening, to obtain some information relative to
-tl.e contract for carrying mails by steam to the West In-
dies. He had no wish to embarrass the Government, and
he would rather ask a question than make a motion.
The documents had been moved for in the month of Feb-
ruary last, andjhe contract had not been laid on the table.
The contract for conveying the mails to Halifax had been
hid on the table, and also the charter to the Company for
conveying the mails to the West Indies, but the contract
for conveying the mails had not been laid on the table.
He would to-sorrow, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer
were in his place, ask him if there was any objection to lay
the contract in question on the table?
CENSUS OF THE POPULATION.

Mr. FOX MAULE, in the absence of Sir Henry
Parnell, obtained leave to bring in a Bill to take an ac-
count of the population of the United Kingdom.
CHESTER GAOL.

Mr. WARBURTON moved fora return of the number
of poisons confined in Chester gaol, distinguishing the of-
fences for which they were confined.—Agreed to.

CASE OF MR. ROBERTS.
Mr. FITZSTEPHEN FRENCH said that in bring.
ing forward the motion of which he had given notice, and
in drawing the attention of the House to the petition in
question, he did so, not because it was a case of great
dividual hardship—not on private grounds, although the pe-
titioner had suffered a very heavy pecuniary loss—but he
brought forward the motion on public grounds, because the
petitioner stated that the advantages to be derived from a
most important scientific discovery had been withheld
from the publie, in consequence of the conduit
of certain individuals filling official situations.—(Hear.)
The petition was from a gentleman named Roberts, who
was the inventor of an anti-septic composition to prevent
animal decomposition for a long period of time. The pe-
titioner tated that Dr. Somerville, who was in high favour
with the Government, had neglected his duty. He also
stated that his discovery was spoken highly of by Sir
Astley Cooper, Sir B. Brodie, Dr. Birkbeck, and other
eminent scientific men, and had documents from these
gentlemen to that effect. Sir Astley Cooper offered the
petitioner a letter of introduction to the Hon. Member for
Bridport, and he waited upon him with it, and the Hon.
Gentleman received him with great courtesy, and expressed
great anxiety for the result of the discovery, and asked Mr.
Roberts to state to him by letter what remuneration he
should expect for it, and Mr. Roberts in that manner in-
formed him, that in consideration of 5,0004, he would
transfer to the Government the right to use his composition
in all the schools of anatomy in the kingdom. The Hon.
Member for Bridport waited with this upon the then
Chancellor of the Exchequer, but that Hon. Gentleman
was then so engaged with public business, that he told him
he was unable to pay any attention to the subject until the
end of the Session (1836). At that time the Right Hon.
Gentleman suddenly left town to attend the scientific
meeting which was held that year at Bristol,
and then went to Ireland, to which ,place Mr.
Roberts got a friend to write to him; no answer was re..
ceived to that letter, but the Right Hon. Gentlemen ad-
dressed one to the Hon. Member for Bridport, dated the
22d September, 1836, in which he stated that the Govern-
ment were satisfied of the value of the discovery, as attested
by so many eminent men, but were not prepared to accede
to the proposal which had been made to them. Now he
(Mr. French) must state he had no complaint to make of
the conduct of the Home-office in the affair, as it was plain
and etraightfarward. Of course, Mr. Roberts thought that
then the negociation was at an end, and that he might use
his invention as he best could. But Mr. Warburton said
No such thing. Lord John Russell knows nothing of the
matter--the Chancellor of the Exchequer thinks highly of
it, and he is the only scientific person in the Ministry."__
( Laughter.) Subsequently "Mr. Warburton said, that un-
4.ess he Was put in possession of the secret he would not
stir in it. Mr. Roberts at first naturally objected ; but,
afterwards, on the advice of Sir George Sinclair, who
told him that Mr. Warburton was an honourable man,
*id' whom the secret was safe, ho consented to do so.
?4o report was given up to the end of 1837. Statements
appeared in the papers of other individuals taking
out patents for anti-septic process. Mr. Roberts was
anxious, and applied to Mr. Warburton, who told him to
keep himself easy, because if he (Mr. Warburton) reported
favourably, the Government would be bound to compensate
him, were there even twenty patents. Some time after
Mr. Warburton said he was prepared to recommend a
grant of 1,000/., and 2,0001. after the process had been
brought fully into operation. Several months of delay
and excuses occurred, at the end of which Mr. Roberts
received a letter from Mr. Warburton, stating that the
Chancellor of the Exchequer having referred the matter
to the Borne-office, Lord J. Russell had declined recom-
mending any grant. Now, (said Mr. French,) would such
a proceeding have been allowed in private life ? I confess,
as the case appears to me, it is one of the most unjus-
tifi ible I ever met with ; here there is, at all events,
ground for inquiry. It is of importance to know if the
Act of Parliament is violated. It is of importance to know
if Mr. Roberts has been subjected to a breach of contract.
say no more at present, but simply move a Committee of
inquiry on the petition of Mr. Roberts.
Slr. WARBURTON hoped that, considering the per-
sonatnature of that question, no advantage would be taken
of the thin state of the house until he had completed his
defence.—( Hear, hear.) It was perfectly true that Mr.
Roberts had come to him with high testimonials.
He had disclaimed any authority on the sub.
ject, but had consented to recommend to the
Chancellor of the Exchequer a small grant first, and
a larger when the process had been throughly tested. He
did make the recommendation, which of course was at-
tended with all the delay invariably accompanying appli.
cations for money to the Chancellor of the Exchequer.--
( liear, hear, and a laugh.) While the matter was going
cc, in March 1837, it came to his ears that Mr. Roberts
had made threats with regard to the prevailing mode of
acquiring subjects for anatomy, on which he (Mr. War-
bur.on) declined having anything more to do with him ;
hut was subsequently prevailed upon CO enter again upon the
subject, and having had the secret confidentially COM-
vnunicate4 to him. he had again made a recommendation to
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as stated by the Hon.
Member. In 1838 Mr. Roberts proceeded to carry into
effect a threat he had made, and went to all the Boards of
Guardians he could for the purpose of preventing the
Anatimy Act being carried into operatic n. He went,
either by stealth or forcibly endeavoured to find his way,
into the workhouses of London, and distributed
printed papcis among perties in order to excite
prejudices in their minds against the practice of anatomy.
Yet Chit was the man who came to the,House, and said his
object was to extend the practice of anatomy, and asked
for a grant of pubiic money to forward his views.—( Hear,
hear.) He hoped that no assistance would be f ffoaded
him by the House —( Hear, hear.)

Mr. FRENCH observed that Mr. Roberts sought for
no reward at the hands of the House, he merely asked for
innuiry.

Mr: HAWES thought that Mr. Roberts bad nothing
to complain of either against the Government or his Lion.
Friend, the Member for Blidport.
M-. GOULBURN said that Mr. Roberta had also
applied to him upon the subject of his discovery. He did
not think his conduct had been so culpable as to deprive
him of any consideration on the part of the Government,
but he deprecated subjects cf this sort .being brought be-
fore the House of Commons. At the same time, the
Government might fairly consider whether he was not en-
titled to some remuneration.
11r. FOX kl AUL E observed that there was one thing
connected with Mr. Roberts that made him suspicious of
his condsset and his secret too, namely, bringing charges
egaihst the Anatomy Act, and msking assertions that it had not answered the purpose for which it had passed. fie could state that the object for which that Act
was passed had been fully attained, namely, the
putting down of that abominable )stern that was formerly
carried on by resurrection men.—( Hear, hear.) He per_
fectly well recollected that about tour years ago Mr. Ro-
berts made a claim for remuneration, and his Noble
Friend, the then Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord
Alonteagle), came to the conclusion stated by the Hon.
Member- for Roscommon, that he would not be justified in

making any grant to him.
Sir ROBERT INGLIS suggested that the Hon.
Member for Roscommon had better withdraw his motion,
and her Majesty's Government would perhaps take steps
to have the case referred to the College of burgeons for its
decisioe.

Mr. PRYME thought, if the invention was of any
value to the public, it should b.; purchased, no matter what
the character of the party was.
Mr. WARBURTON was again about to address the
house, when

Mr:FRiNCH said he thought the Hon. Member for
Bridport had had ample opportunities of etpiaining
his
views upon the subject.
Mr. WARBURTON merely wishod to read the cer-
tificate of two surgeons, who slated that they thought the
invention was not applicable to anatomical purposes.
Mr. F. FRENCH replied ; in conformity with what
appeared to be the wish of the House, he would not press
bl 3

Th; motion was then by leave withdrawn.
The Order of tie Day for the House going into Com-
mittee on the. Salo of Beer Bill having been read,
General JOHNSTONE moved that the House be
counted ; and there being only 32 Members present, the
Hells. adjourned at a Quartcr past Seven till to-morrow
(this day).

A meeting of Welsh bards is to taly place at
Live pool in the middle of next month. The ehief composition
will be the resources of Liverpool, and its claims to the name
of l' modern Tyre."

only person who had entered into the speculation. The
lf.n. and Learned Gentleman concluded by moving that
petition of M. Ilercu!es Bradshaw be referred to a
lrct Committee.

Lord CA[L EREA G fl seconded the motion. It was
true that there were few subjects on which he could
agreee with the Hon, and Learned Gentleman, to whom
g:eat credit was due for the manner in which he had
2ken '4lAthi, case.
Mr. O'CONNELL said it had been suggested to
him that an arrangement might he made by postponing
the matter, and he would therefore beg leave to move
that the debate upon it be adjourned till Tuesday next.—

CHUB.

~NSION.

Mr. Hume's Amendment to ir h. Inglis's motion,
that an humble address be presented to her Majesty,
praying that, before recommending this House to grant
any further sums of public money tcwards Church Ex-
tension, her Majesty would be graciously pleased to
take into consideration the rich and valuable endow-
ments which are already possessed by the Established
Church of Englsnd and \Vales, as well as the large
sums of public money which have been granted for
Church Extension since the year 1809 :
That her Majesty will be graciously pleased to consi-
der, that the bulk of the property held by the Esta-
blished Church of England consists of endowments
orig:nally made by various sovereigns of this country,
and by other individuals, for the maintenance of the
Roman Catholic Church : and that this property was
subsequently appropriated by the legislature to the sup-
port and maintenanoe of the English Protestant Re-
formed Church, at a time when dissent from that Es-
tablished Church was expressly prohibited by law, as
appears from the sth and 6th of Edward VI., cap. 1
(A. D. 1552), when " every person or persons inha-
biting within this realm, or any other of his Ma-
jesty's dominions," were required to t, resort to their
parish church or chapel upon every Sunday, and
then and there to abide orderly and soberly
during the time of common prayer, preachings, or
other service of God, upon pain of punishment
by the censures of the Church :" and it was
also at the same time enacted, " that if any person
shall willingly hear, or be present at, any other manner
or form of common prayer, or service, than is set forth
in the Book of Common Prayer, according to the laws
of the realm, on being convicted thereof before a Justice
or a Judge, and a Jury of twelve men, shall for the
first offence suffer imprisonment for six months ; if found
guilty of a second offence, one year's imprisonment ; and
for a third offence, imprisonment for life."
That her Majesty will be
graciously pleased to re-
member, that since the year 1688, the laws which pro-
posed to enforce, under the above severe penalties,
uniformity of prayer, and regular attendance on one
form of worship, have been modified and partially re;
pealed ; and that a very large portion of the subjects of
her Majesty have, under various denominations, dis-
sented, and do dissent, from the doctrine, and from the
discipline of the Established Church ; and that nu]
merous places of worship have been erected, and Minis-
ters to afford means of religious worship and instruc-
tion have been appointed and supported, at the sole ex-
pense of these several sects and denominations, with
little, if any, assistance from the public Treasury ; and
that, whilst the Established Church, at this time, in-
cludes only a portion of her Majesty's subjects, it has
yet been allowed to retain the entire property, and re-
ceive the whole of the revenues formerly granted and
intended for the religious instruction of all her subjects.
That her Majesty will be graciously pleased to con-
sider that it appears, from the Report of the Commis-
sioners of the Ecclesiastical Revenue Inquiry, dated
16th June 1835, that the permanent gross annual re-
venue
of the Church of England, on the average of the
three years ending 1831, was upwards of 3,750,0001.,
and the permanent net annual revenue was upwards of
:3,450,000/. exclusive of glebes, and of the amount of
fines paid on the renewal of leases of Bishops' and other
Church lands ; exclusive also of Church-rates, of
Easter Offerings, of fees on marriages, births, and
burials, to a large amount :

Gross Net
Details. Average. Average.
Revenue of Archiepiscopal £ £
and Episcopal Sees.. , 181,631 160,292
Do. Cathedral and Collegiate
Churches
Do. of Dignitaries of Cathe-
dral and Collegiate Churches 75,854 66,463
Do. of 10,540 Benefices
Do. of 62 sinecure Rectories 18,622 17,096

£3,757,573 £3,456,861
That her Majesty will be graciously pleased to re.
member, that according to the Diocesan Returns for
England and Wales (made by the Archbishops and
Bishops to her Majesty's most honourable Privy Coun-
cil, in the year 1838), of the incumbents of the total
number of benefices, 10,742, the enormous proportion
of 4,307 were non-residents ; and,
That her Majesty will be graciously pleased to con-
sider the extreme inequality with which the Ecclesiasti-
cal zevenues arc distributed ; and that, by these Re-
turns, the 3,230 curates, employed actively in 1801,
received on an average only 791. per annum, showing,
that although the revenues of the Church are upwards
of 3,750,0001. annually, the active duty, in nearly
one half the benefices, was performed for less than
420,0001.
That her Majesty will be graciously pleased to con-
sider, that, in the opinion of a large portion of the
people in England, the present revenues of the Church,
if wisely administered, are amply sufficient to provide
religious worship and instruction for that portion of her
Majesty's subjects belonging to the Established Church
of this kingdom ; and that any apparent want of such
religious worship and instruction may fairly be attri-
buted, not to the deficiency of the Ecclesiastical revenues,
but to the evils arising from sinecures, pluralities, non-
residence, and inequality of distribution of income,
whereby a considerable proportion of these revenues
are absorbed by dignitaries and incumbents, who, per;
forming but little duty themselves, instead of aiding,
actually impede the spread of religious instruction, and
increase the labour of those clergymen who are the most
actively engaged in promoting religious knowledge.
That her Majesty will moreover be graciously pleased
to consider that, besides the large permanent annual re-
venue 013,7.50,0001., and the income from glebes, &c.,
the several fines, rates, and fees to a large amount, as
stated above, there has been paid since the year 1809,
from the public Treasury, the further amount of up-
wards of 2,750,000/. for the extension of the Established
Church, and for the promotion of her religious worship!
Sums levied by Parliament for augmenta-
tion of poor livings
.£1,100,000
For Church Buildings, &c. . 1,500,000
For Drawbacks on Building materials.

£2,753,15
That, finally, her Majesty will be graciously please0d
to consider, that the public revenue is levied not only
from members of the Established Church, but also from
dissenters of every sect and denomination in the United
Kingdom ; that the conscientious belief and conviction
of Dissenters prevent their profiting,,eithor by the ex-
tension of the Established Church, or by the doctrinal
instruction which is promulgated therein, and that it
will, therefore, be highly unjust and oppressive to grant
from the public Treasury any more of the money, con-
tributed by all her Majesty's subjects collectively, with
a view to the extension of a Church which embraces
only a portion of her Majesty's subjects, and which
Church, moreover, is already so liberally and largely
endowed.