The Sun.
London, England, 1840-07-07 00:00:00

LeArned Lord ; if thu did not they would, by a larg3 ma-
jority, refuse to accede to the motion. _ _ _

The Earl of CARBERRY supported the moticn of the
Noble and Learned Lord, believing that the object of the
Bill was to transfer the Corporation of Dublin from the
hands of the Protestants into those of the Catholics.

The Earl of \V IC K LOW could not support the pro-
position of the Noble and Learned Lord. It was
evident that Dublin had been. the great object in view,
upon the introduction of the Bill ; and as he had hitherto
voted in favour of the measure, and had heard no
arguments which had convinced him that lie was in error
in doing so; to be consistent he must vote against the
Noble Lord's motion, He thought the principle of the
Bill good, as it was to transfer a power from a body,
and give it to the people.—( Hear, hear.) He believed
that in the present day corporations were of no use what-
ever.—( Hear)—and of this he was confident, that the
only effectual mode of governing Ireland was to give her
institutions similar to those that existed in this country.—
(Hear, hear.) He, for one, would never give his sanction
to any measure that was not based upon that principle.
The Marquis of W E ST 19 E ATH supported the amend-
ment. He could not admit the argument that because
the Bill had been introduced several times it therefore
ought to be adopted. It was saying, in effect, that men
became wiser by posthumous information.—(Laughter.)
The Commission of Corporation Inquiry was of no use
but to provide for the Commissioners, and there had not
been one of those who had not been provided for by death
or otherwise.—( Laughter.) The Government had never
read a word of the evidence in the case of the corporation
of Dublin, but attempted to confiscate the property of that
corporation, and only to gratify the party, by the assistance
of which her Majesty's Ministers kept forcible possession
of the Government.—(Hear, and laughter.) Ile had
read both the reports on the Dublin corporation, and he
would answer for it there was not any proof of any de-
linquency that would induce their Lordships to
hang a dog.---(Great laughter.) The object of the
Bill was to stultify Parliament. Several years ago Par-
liament abolished the assessed taxes in Ireland, upon the
ground that they did not pay the expense of collection.
But was it not stultifying Parliament to ask them now to
give the Radical corporation of Dublin the power of tax-
ing the people of Dublin to the amount of 40,0001. ? lie
called on their Lordships to hear his warning voice, and
not to throw themselves into an abyss which they could
not fathom.—(Hear, and a laugh.) He would vote for the
motion of his Noble Friend.

The Earl of G L ENG ALL supported and defended the
corporation of Dublin from the. charges of delinquency
alleged by the Noble Marquis opposite. lie opposed the
original clause on different grounds from those which be
had heard from other Noble Lords—he opposed it
on the ground that it would trans!er the funds
of the corporation to the amount of 50,0001.
to the Repealers, who were equally the enemies of
England and Ireland—( Hear.) The Repeal Society and
the Ribbon Society were now organized and in full force;
and it was on account of that state of society be was at
corporation
e t
were
placed under
integrity of the empire could not long be maintained.
There bad been in former times societies of Irish patriots,
to
clauseudcr the; for if
disposal the
of ffu thosends of
men,tije
which, like the United Irish Society, led to insurrection
and civil war. And he maintained that the present Re-
peal Society was identical in its objects with that of the
United Irishmen. The United Irishmen proposed only to
require a full representation of the people in Parliament,
end that was certainly not more than the Repealers de-
manded. (The Noble Lord then quoted from the letters of
Roman Catholic priests and others to the Repeal Society,
some violent and menacing statements, and strong decla-
rations of the writers " having three or four hundred
thousand men at their command," who were ready to rescue
Ireland from the oppressive tyranny of England.) There was
one feature in the present state of society in Ireland,
which would render the measure destructive—that was
the fierce political character of the young priests educated
in Maynooth, who would be the actual nominators of the
Town Councillors of the city of Dublin and the other
corporations. He would ask, in this plan, whether the
Government were not Repealers themselves ?—( Hear.)
110 asked for information, for he heard the Vice.. Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade declare himself a Repealer in
twol years ago, at the time
of He heard much of the
thea
ICI
eoluerett-ihoonu..4se orif
ear,C lonbtenaerl.l,)
desire of the Government to assimilate the laws and insti-
tutions of the two countries. They did so, however,
only when it suited the ,purpose of their party in Ireland.
But why did they not assimilate the registration of the
two countries by passing Lord Stanley's Bill ?—( Hear,
hear.) If they gases him that Bill, he would say pass
your Corporation Bill when you like. He did not care
even for Dublin.—( A laugh.) For the sake of the re-
spectability and prosperity, as much as for the reasons lie
Dukesaidas a that
speechthe
against speech
had alleged, he entreated their Lordships to adopt the
amendment.iiepu
k of WELLINGTON
,r
of his Noble Friend (Lord Glengall) was
the whole Bill. But although he was from the first of
opinion that it would be better to have no corporations
at all in Ireland, he would leave the responsibility of the
consequences which might follow to those who had under-
taken to prevent them. He would now confine himself
to the anundment of hia Noble Friend. After the Bill
had been five years before the House, the corporation of
Dublin had thought proper to petition the House, and they
were heard by Counsel at the bar of the House. But it
must be admitted that, however able the speeches of
Counsel, they were not borne out by the evidence which
had been laid before their Lordships. He would be very
sorry to see the people of Dublin subjected to the govern-
ment of such a corporation as might be created by this.
Bill; and he hoped their Lordships would attend closely
t 3 the enactments of the Bill to prevent the mischiefs
which he apprehended it was capsble of producing. But
he entreated their Lordships in the present state of the
question to vote against the amendment of his Noble

Friend, at the same time, so to model the powers to be
given by this Bill to the tyranical democracy, to which
the Noble Lords opposite were responsible ; he for one
would vote against the amendment, and go on with the
rest of the Bill, with the hope of sending it back to the
other House as pei feet as he could.
The Bishop, of EXETER wished to do justice Ap,lncr,
land, in the persenof:an IriShm,au.. It was with deep,re.
t;T•ef.l)6.. had heard the Noble Duke. The Lcarned:Cen-
tlenan who appeared at the bar on behalf of the city
of Dublin had not only done himself great honour, but had
dolio the country great service by his admirable speech.
With respect to the toast of the " Glorious, Pious, and
Immortid Memory," of which so much had been said, ho
must remind their Lordships that tho toast went no farther
than the solemn service of the Established Church, on

the sth of November. He was glad that the Noble Mar-
quis (Normanby) had avowed that the Bill would transfer

.he government of the Corporation from an exclusive

Protestant to an exclusive Popish party, as that would
ensure the failure of the Bill. The Noble Duke could
not on such a view of the Bill vete for the third reading,
nor could their Lordships support it after the declaration
of the Noble Earl (Wicklow), who said that it must
be passed in consequence of its giving in Ireland, as
another Bill bad given in England, the management
of the Coiporatious to a democratic constituency. With
these views he most heartily said Content to the motion
of his No:3le and Learned Friend.
The Duke of WELLINGTON made a few observa-
tions in explanation, which were inaudible in the gallery.
The Marquis of 14 AN SDO WNE opposed the motion
of the Noble and Learned Lind. They had been told that
theatly Co
noer peooruatl
di onmoaf Dke uabnlyi n
complaint had
tiot d;me any act of which
now,
in
proof that
the contietry was the fact, he would refer to the evidence
of Alderman Beresford, who had been a member of the
Corporation for more than thirty years. lie said, in
first place, that he found that the boundaries had been
diminished—that property had been lost de ough the
neglect of the Corporation.—( Hear, heor, hear.)
fie found also leases in perpetuity, reserving
a nominal rent, that they were in possession of leases of
which they could give no account, and that upon the whole
their estates did not appear to be well managed for the
last fifty years. Such was the statement of Mr. Alderman
Beresford, and those statements were supported by three
other Aldermen. Such then was the virtuous Corporation
which had employed Learned Counsel to prove to their
Lordships that they have done nothing wrong, and to ex-
press their wonder at the charges that had been brought
against them.—( [hear, hear.) He thought this Bill was
calculated to do much good in Ireland, and he had little
fear of its working well with respect to Dublin.—
( Hear.) Wi!li reference to that city, he had the greatest
objection to its being omitted from that Bill, as he then&
-a very strong case had beets made out against the Corpo-
ration of Dublin.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY supported the
motion. Ile believed if Dublin was excluded from the
Bill, that individual who directed the Councils of her
Majesty's Government. would not allow it to pass in an-
other place.—( Hoar, hear. )
Lord W YNFO RD replied.
Strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the House di_
vidcd, when there appeared—
tshfeorortiiigeh;lennidomtio;................
3827
The effect of the decision is to retain Dublin in the
NCooNinilt:ijCnootrsilittfy:flotr the original.. m0ti0n,..... 47
schedule.
The Report (as we understood) was then ordered to be
received on Friday, and their Lordships adjourned at Ealf-
past Eleven o'Clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, juzr
The SPEAKER took the chair at four O'clock.
WEAVER CHURCHES BILL.
Sir T. EGEItTON moved the reading of the Or-
der of the Day for the adjourned debate upon this Bill.
Mr. J. JERVIS thel moved the introduction of a
clause, the object of which was.to add to the body of
the Trustees, which at present consists of 103 per-
sons, ten practical men, to be selected from those persons
who pay oineteea-twentieths of the funds from which
the tolls were paid. There would be no objection to
admit ten of these gentlemen, who at the same time
that they would control the management of the trusts,
on account of the small proportion of their numbers,
would be able to make important communications and
suggestions to the others.
Mr. T. EGER'FONopposed the motion. It was wholly
unprecedented to alter the whole constitution of so im-
portant a trust, by the introduction of ac'auee on the
third reading of a bill for Building Churches on the
river Weaver.
Mr. G. WILBRAHAM supported the clause, and
agreed with the Hon. and Learned Member for Chester,
that it would be of great advantage to the trust to
have ten practical men admitted to share in the manage-

went.
Mr. TIIORNELY supported the clause, and said,
that the trustees of the Liverpool
. Docks had failed to
give satisfaction to the pulik:, from a similar want of
men amongst them interzsted to the trade.
Mr. CRESSAA ELL opposed the clause, and said,
that there was no analogy letween the Weaver Trust,
and the Liverpool Docks T rust.
t Mr. E. J. STANLEY said that it had been clearly