The Sun.
London, England, 1840-07-31 00:00:00

EVENING EDITION.

went relied upon principally by the advocates of the
eicasure was, that, haling abolished all fnecures in the
State, they were new bound to put an end to all
weecures in the Church.—(Hear, hear.) The ad-
vantages Of these institutions were known, and
11c:knov,ledged by all who had paid any attention to
the subject, and the indirect advantages were nume-
rous, inasmuch as they inculcated a high love of 1i te a-
ttire, a respect for the best institutions of the country,.
end a due reverence for the religious observances of.
the Church. Such had been the invariable efforts of
these institutions in the localities in which they were
situated, and he would only refer to the diocese with
which he was connected, to show the benefits they had
conferred upon the ccmmunity at large.---(Hear,)
Again, it was of the utmost importance that there
should be a gradation in the ranks of the clergy, and
that those who distinguished themselves might obtain
those opportunities which would raise them higher in
the respect and estimation of the people. The Noble
Viscount had " sneered," and that, he believed, was the
most appropriate phrase to apply to it, at the idea
°f the Deans and Chapters being wanted as a coun-
cil for the Bishops ; but when he had to deal
With a refractors clergyman, he thought it was
‘f the utmost importance to have the advice and as-
sistance of the Prebends and other officers of the
cathedral to assist him in forming his judgment. Ano-
ther remark of the Noble Viscount was that as to these
cathedrels being useful as places set apart for the study
Of theology, why the study of theology was a very good
thing in its way, but it was not the thing they wanted.
--COI laugh.) He regretted that the Noble Viscount
s"ould have been permitted to make such a statement
is the presence of the Right Rev. Prelate and his other
e"lleastues in the Commission, many of whom had ad-
dressed the House on behalf of the measure, but not
"° of them hail thought fit to rebuke the Noble Vis-
count for having given utterance to such sentiments.
He trusted the Noble Marquis (Normanby) who had
Undertaken to communicate what fell from him to the
Noble Viscount would say that he (the Bishop of Exe-
Vill') most seriously rebuked him for the observation,—
eoud laughter.) He would be glad to know what the
h""°h!e Viscount intended to recommend her Majesty
ued be the object of the two new professorships of
°
, "logy which were to be created by the Bill. He
listed the House would pause before it consented to
seerifice these much calumniated bodies. He objected
t° the present measure because it would abrogate
churches.,, and. vested rights, and excite discontent and
eissatistaction throughout the country. He did not
keen to undervalue the importance of the 130,0001.
Which it was proposed to raise, but why should it be
taised at the expense of the deans and chapters. He
theselvould rather see it raised as a permanent charge upon
_ bodies than to see them totally annihilated and
robbed
,lustf the property which he did not hesitate to say
:hip:,as much theirs as the property of their Lord-
the ir,„lt might just as well be said, why should not
Nobi".000/. be raised from the estate of a certain
Giaese Marquis to relieve the distress existing in
$z -6°W or p iisley or any otherpart of the country ?
aliensked if there'" 'was so- much larger an amount of
Pl reh property why did they not look at that to sup-
, y these distre-ss'es ?. It was for the interest of the
'h°untry this spiritual destitution should be relieved, and
reef therefore asked the Noble Viscount his reason for
desujing to call upon this property to supply the spiritual
No,,tu'ion of country ?He would point out to thef._
fe °I Viscount a way he might remedy it without a
ilet'Pg vested interests.—(Lord Melbourne smiled.)
orte.,ni better reason than even the Noble Viscount to
vrnle for his conviction. Some time ago a Right Rev.
Zg.l' 'cud Come down to the House and expressed his in-
_na:ion at the conduct of the Noble Viscount. He
eh '_'.
~ omplained of it in similar terms in a published.
v .41:he to the clergy of his diocese, and charged the Go-
dor._ Me.nt. with a direct violation of their pledges to the
thaL.Minssioners His Right Reverend Friend on
alLt, occasion stated to their Lordships that it was
ium d in the Commission respecting giving
„ncreased value to Church lands being made a
`Blatter for their consideration. The Noble Viscount
he that he had not disclaimed his assent to it, but
Temeltnevertheless did so, and submitted, or the Govern-
-I.:chnt submitted, to the House of Commons a measure
as no previous Government had dared to submit,
sauteed on manifest injustice, with the confidence that
Honourable House would assist them in carrying
it •
Into effect. A declaration was in consequence
hlgaed by every member of that Commission who was
:", a member of the Government, declaring they
could no long
er meet until such a resolution was
Sti
r,opted ; and in consequence of their refusal, the
‘"ommission ceased to exist. It was idle declamation,
ory, it was little less than gross hypocrisy, to deplore,
affect to deplore, the spiritual distress of the coun-
t,ty, and yet refuse to do that which justice demanded.
Ile would now shortly deal with the Bill itself. At
that Bill he must express his astonishment. It did not
appear to be framed so perfectly as it should be. Its
tr"isions were extraordinary, not only in principle,
rota in detail.—(Hear, hear.) He was persuaded
ei i arose, not from injustice, but the want
pr ,n.cluitY. The great point of the Bill was the sup-
vinee--I°n of these bodies, and after the vote of the pre-
--es oi s
eehoi got he was not going to attempt to obstruct the
thou°, course of legislation on the subject, but he
the flt Power should be left to the Commissioners
prelT3eves to increase in certain dioceses the number of
fromendaries. The Chapter of Canterbury had existed
Saxe the time of Augustus, the founder of the Anglo-
bed 4 Church, and from that time to the Reformation
deetb"i°Yed entire their privileges. In case of the
sterittilf !he. A.lost Rev. Prelate, who would be the
the v. 4, Jurtsdictor of the See of Canterbury during
with 4e'ineY ? The Dean and Chapter. Yet this See,
upon athll the duties that in such a case would devolve
than em, was to have a less number of officers than
late 3' f the small bishoprics.—(The Right Rev. Pre-
the
etas
here for some time inaudible.) The clergy of
oel, i'lfese were grossly injured by this measure. So
!NI the for the justice done to the Bishops, the Canons,
The effect of the measure was to en-
P ry"ertillee:CgYun•ons to make their elections from those
448 di— e less eligible than others. There was a reek-
appare, egard
of the violation of Charters without any
ters eret.reason. This actually swept away the Char-
itl th:kVi_lea,rs Choral. That House was the last place
Itleasere "gcl°lll he should expect any favour to such a
tvee t6_as this. Charters of late, in other places, and
teasotis 7; had been dealt with very freely on slight
tetbireiellt what reason at all was there for this ? It
kissio, the united crotchedness of the whole Commis-
eed e_ to devise it. He did implore those venerable
do, most Noble
Lords to lo what they were able to
11 d and cable
*(1 • their
4 : at was within power. He
Strict
el)°,otied out the mode in which, in
tileY weermPaatme with the spirit of the British law,
NI 8, . e 'I, ble to give relief to that enormous moral '
all the justV complained of. He called upon them, by
isi.ive
effeccotnsiderations which could weigh with them, •to
e given to that course, or to show that it could not
114 iustl effect to. Let them satisfy him they could
1144 the Y °So ; and he would say, refuse it ; but he
than ,el Must do as far as they could justly, or they
.00 ii ar th
key
a them' e reproaches which would be justly cast
ti.. aces He He adjured the first among his Right
'4 he e `4,ren, whom he venerated in a degree greater
1,10,5 t ReQmd mention, and he adjured the whole of that
iv
ere verend Bench to do their utmost to obtain
4,!alst bat h°oo for this Christian land--a boon which
4°oajd %granted, if demanded in the tone which
to
Cebu b Used when such an object was
.
10,reh e,
e ° seefie FroPerty, and it might be they would
1.,11 to this Portion of the beneficial interest by acced-
4ot 04 Proposition, but he was sure there was
ticoeld he amongst them who would oppose it, if it
PPlied Proved, consistently with justice, it could be
kill° t° rescuing many from the way of sin in which
t_l'.°ll:l,B of °Ur countrymen were placed. He was,
it- 44
not in a large measure, possessed of property
ill°lle whature, and when he had made provision for
114 large° would follow him, he should have done so
eo. degree by means of Church leases, and he
Ai pared most
!Istroilpemnly, he should rejoice if their Lord-
teielb lilt o_uld
his family of that beneficial interest
11: salie`gynt!.inconsistent with justice for them to retain.
V;„: Was sure be be was expressing a sentiment in which
Itt to oheircee one who had an interest in it would
I°4l to
eg_ teeprop with its full value, to enable
for the
arZtuale to Parli tment and secure a remedy
s„ the
Arthaht• evil this country had ever known.
he
4 few
words !Silo., of
I' CANTERBURY wished to
440(111'01a to th in explanation. He had not said that
rhos said a reform buke of Wellington and Lord Grey,
ilredeodn
done the diBtin .. was necessary in the Church, but that
a at it reusu.ished individuals had said so to him, and
le,ehesoernmenced by the Church itself. He
Noble Lords that something must
ittioubt
twtter.e it was to ogri '
he confessed he hardly knew how or
kaomtnission h dir
this4,l,Nion with gsMate...., He subsequently had some com-
itobert Peel on the subject, and
_ The Bsh a originated from these circumstances.
°P o,f EXETER explained, and quoted
pport of his 'elbe aimed
..._.cement in au
h:r,Ele Archbi-b
t.'olBtlsht Rev. Preiaotep hadf declaration.
CANTERBURY said the
Cometse subject than he used much stronger language
4...ssioners' R had and a great portion of the
eat eport was founded on his recommen-
i, ThA p• i
fro - ...Isnop of EXETER said after what had fallen
to puthre,M?st Rev. Prelate he should feel it his duty
Th_ ''..13 his correspondence with him on this subject.
tea, e Duke of
i*-4_ trespass on thelirN
WEL
LGoTrd(lllpesatidimehe
fora
ai t
few r. e-
r 4 • tea,
to tr
,e•Nies, after t• he:pot to his
coats
had.passed. To say the truth with
ersation with the Most Rev. Prelate
1410 id
ni3t recollect a single word of it. He did not
he /1° What 1
- 411,1 "getlnaga ke had used, but this he did know,
net, "
aver
*co and th_.
oentertained but one opinion on this sub-
to4 that ad4citi .Plumo was that it was especially access
Dete.,4ltrY for thtelellal means should be adopted in this
tteaPie..,(HearPr.eaching of the word of God to the
xl2. at:11 Cbur 11 hear.). And considering in what de-
f 0,. aulein e of tilts country was endowed, it was
that the first steps in ord
or that
er to procure funds
ti5ve1...,1511,!,'"e should be taken by the clerg them
80 eqear, hear., T. Y . -
°Pinions ene had always entertained
, and whenever any of the Right Rev.

Prelates had done him the honour to converse with hirn
on this subject, he had stated these opinions to them.
He could not recollect on what particular occasion, or
in what words he had delivered it, but be had delivered
the same opinion few few nights ago, in that House, on
presenting a petition from the Universities of Oxford,
and he had also, in his correspondence with that Uni-
versity, stated the same opinion. He would go a little
farther, and 4ay these persons must have derived little
advantage from the contemplation of what was passing
around them, if they did not see fresh cause every day
for thinking that it was absolutely necessary that the
first step should be taken by the clergy them-
selves ; and when a Commission, composed of such
men as the Most Reverend and the Right Reverend
Prelates, reported there were resources for this purpose,
it was quite ridiculous to apply to Parliament to assist
with other sources for that which he must say was of
the utmost importance to religious service. They had
had many nights' debate on this important subject, and
it appeared to him there was no difference of opinion on
that part of the question—namely, that means must be
found of preaching the Word of God to the people of the
country, and that those means must proceed, in the first
instance, from the Church itself. Those means
must be exhausted before 'Parliament was applied to.
In doing this they would not only be performing the
duty which they felt incumbent on them, but would
be following the example of every nation in the world.
It had been his fate to live among idolators, and among
people of all creeds and religions, but he never knew
yet of an instance in which public means were not
found sufficient to teach the people the religion of the
country. It might be a false religion, and he knew
but of one true one, but still the means were found ;
and he trusted they should not have done with this
subject until they had found sufficient means for
teaching to all the people of this country their
duty towards their Maker, and towards one another.
He believed, with the Right Rev. Prelate, that if jus-
tice were done, means would be found within the Church
of supporting itself, and of teaching the Word of God
to all. He would co-operate, to the best of his power,
in effecting that object.—(Hear, hear.) He thought
the Bill before the House was a fair sample of what
might be done, and lie hoped that, before it came out
of the ComMittee, it would be made the foundation of
something more—namely, that of upholding the Church
upon the old system.—(Hear, hear.)
The Bishop of LONDON would make bat a few
observations—first, because he was anxious the Bill
should be passed into a law as speedily as possible, and
next because he was unwilling to keep alive those feel-
ings which the speech of the Rev. Prelate (the Bishop
of Exeter) was too well calculated to excite. Indeed,
he was glad that the debate on the former occasion ter-
minated without a speech from that Right Rev. Prelate
—(A laugh)—because he was sure that had he spoken
he would have said something that would have created
a bad feeling among those whom it was desirable to con-
ciliate. Many of the statements made by that Right
Rev. Prelate were of an extraordinary nature. He
would not call them misrepresentations, but they were
certainly, to say the least of them, of an extra-
ordinary character.—(Hear.) Notwithstanding the
opposition which the Bill had met Vaith, he must say he
still thought it would prove a beneficial measure. It
was true there had been a great many petitions pre-
sented against the Bill, but he was persuaded that
two-thirds of the petitioners did not in the least under-
stand the question. He acknowledged that possibly
some of the provisions of the Bill might be altered with
advantage. The Right Rev. Prelate then adverted
to the object of the Bill, which was to provide for the
spiritual destitution of the people, and observed that no
Christian could surely oppose with sincerity so righteous
a measure.--(Hear, hear.) For instance, in his own
diocese there was the Cathedral of St. Paul's
with a dean and three residentiaries, enjoying
an income of 12,000/. a-year. There were a number
of minor offices, yielding to the persons enjoying them
an enormous income, for which little or no duty was
performed. A mile further on was a dense population
of the most wretched and deplorable description, and
in the midst of a population of 10,000 persons there
was only one church.—(Hear, hear.) In another dis-
trict there was only one church and one clergyman for
45,000 people, and yet he was told that St. Paul's
ought not to be touched—(Hear, hear)—and he was
not to consent to the abolition of the most insignificant of
those sinecures in order to furnish spiritual food for those
wretched creatures who were perishing from want of it.
Was it to be said at this time of day there was to be
no re-distribution ?—(Hear.) If that principle were not
adopted the Christian Church must cease to exist.—
(Hear.) The Right Rev. Prelate next adverted to
the charge that had been made against him and his
Right Rev. Colleagues upon the Commission, that they
had violated their oaths. That charge, which amounted
to nothing more nor less than a charge of perjury, had
been made with considerable bitterness by the Right
Reverend Prelate. His conscience told him that
he was unstained by any such crime.—(Loud cheers.)
All he and his Right Reverend Brethren had
sworn was to defend the rights and privileges
of the cathedrals from unlawful aggressions ; but they
were not prevented from giving their consent to or ori-
ginating such measures as should be consonant with the
usefulness of the cathedrals, or their efficiency.—(Hear,
hear.) Then it had been said that he and the other
Ecclesiastical Commissioners had been actuated by fear.
He pleaded guilty to the charge ; but what fear ? Was
it the fear of popular clamour, or the fear of those de-
magogues? But he ought not to use the word "dema-
gogue," because this was a subject distinct from politics.
But was it the fear of those who had been the most active
and loudest in their cry of " Down with the Church—
down with her even to the ground ?" It was no such
unholy fear as that ; but it was the fear of being found
wanting in their duty as rulers of the Church of
Christ of this nation, when they knew that that
Church possessed the means of remedying so enormous
an evil as leaving multitudes of their countrymen a
prey to the evils of ignorance and infidelity, andin-
stea4 of being the basis of the strength of the nation,
the cause of her ruin and desolation.—(Cheers.) The
Right Rev. Prelate, after controverting other argu-
ments which had been urged against the Bill, proceeded
to observe that the diminution of the number of causes
could detract nothing from the decent performance of
the service in the cathedrals. Even the musical ac-
companiment of the service would lose nothing of its
effects, as it did not usually depend on the vocal powers
of; the canons.—(Hear and a laugh.) In most of the
cathedrals only one sermon was preached on the Sun-
day by a resident canon. So that in this respect the effi-
ciency of the cathedral would not be impaired by the
reduction of the number of canons, as proposed. He
would have assented with less hesitation to the recom-
mendations which the report of the Commission con-
tained, if they had come from any other quarter. If
they had not come from himself, and others who
would in some small measure be benefited by them,
he would have had not the slightest hesitation in sign-
ing them. But he confessed that it was only from a
sense of their paramount importance he brought him.
self to sign them when he considered that they would,
in however slight a manner, be of advantage to himself.
The Right Rev. Prelate then quoted from the evidence
of the Bishop of Llandaff (whom he warmly eulogised)
to show that the number of the canons might be re-
duced considerably without inconvenience. His Right
Rev. Friend had asked why did they attack the pro-
perty of the corporations alone ? thereby implying that
the property of the Church, in the hands of the lease-
holders, ought to be resorted to. The Commissioners
had given that part of the subject every consideration ;
and they were of opinion that they could not for a
long time to come recommend any interference
with that property, which, though public pro-
perty in the strict legal sense of the term,
was in some measure regarded as private
property ; at least, more so than that which was
in the actual possession of the corporations. In the
meantime, the danger was pressing and urgent—
( Hear, hear.) It was objected erroneously that the
Bill went to suppress spiritual offices. It did no such
thing. Those offices were ecclesiastical, certainly, but
not spiritual.—(Hear, bear.) Why, her Majesty was,
at this moment, a prebend of one of the cathedrals.—
(Hear, and a laugh.) He believed there was now
only one point of his Right Rev. Friend's speech to
which he must allude, as involving a question of prin-
ciple. His Right Rev. Friend deplored the inter-
ference with the corporations of the minor canons.
This was a part of the Bill of great importance. It
was necessary for the discipline of the cathedrals that
those separate and independent corporations of the minor
canons should be dissolved, as they were an obstruction to
discipline. He did not wish the services of the canons
to be dispensed with. They were a most useful body,
but their efficiency would be improved by placing them
under the authority of the Bishop. He would net
longer detain their Lordships—( Hear, bear)—but he
had thought it incumbent on him to defend himself and
his colleagues from the imputations which had been
cast on them.—(Hear, hear.) They had given the
subject committed to them a long, careful, and accu-
rate examination.—(Hear.) They had met with great
difficulty, and had not found a friendly disposition on
the part of the chapters.—(Hear.) He would not
say that if they had continued to ask for information it
would have been refused, but they had not been met in
a friendly spirit.—(Hear.) However, they had acted
conscientiously—(Hear)—and he was glad to have had
an opportunity of stating the seasons
which induced
him to give his support to the Bill in its main
features ; and he had no doubt that before many
years more passed they would have the thanks
of all Christians in the country for having removed
evils which were the bane of the Church. They had
set a good example, by making a sacrifice of one part
of tdthtalniatfrotinheya
vantageli Church,octimthe
and
most
t useful
h e a
nd least i
m p useful,o f
important.—(
t ._o r thei ad-
Hear,)
ar.)
elxfpteliceteßd,ililtshwoouuldldfafialitlo
want of consideration or caution on the part of those
freoffmectotahilerthceaugsoeos
who had submitted to the Crown the recommendations
on which it was based.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
The House then went into Committee, when
Lord MELBOURNE said that it would be the
best way to read the amendments now, in order that