The Sun.
London, England, 1815-02-23 00:00:00

CORN LAWS.

On the motion of Mr. RoßtNsori that, the Re..
port of the Committee on the Corn Laws be laid
before a Committee of the whole House.
GORE LANGTON wished the idea not to get
abroad, that the general opinion of the people of
this country was in any respect changed oil till;
important subject. On the contrary, it remained
unaltered, and they looked with fearful appre-
hension on any alteration being made in the Louti
Laws.

General GAscoyrE, was convinced, that it was
from the necessity of postponing the measure hitt
year, that it was lost. An Hon. Member Lad
stated, that this procrastination had given en Oi;-
porcunicy for a farther invebtigation of the b-
ject, and that he thought it likLly to be more sa-

people at large remained much in the sane senti-
ment as they entertained last year, and this sen-
timent ivas again exressed by the innumerable
petitions which crowded the table of the House.
there was scarcely a large town in the kingdom
which had not sent up its prayer that no altera-
tion.he made in the Corn LAWS. They had seen
no other alteratiOn take place, in consequence of-
the labours of the
.Committee, hut an increase in
the price of bresid ; .and thongh it had been said,
that those who were guided by reason, rather
than by feeling, were generally right, he. was of
:aft opinion directly the contrary;
.forin whatever
related to the. subsistence of human life, those
who were guided by feeling: were sure to have rea-
son -on their side. Thellouse being composed of
the great. body of landholders in the kingdom,
and the representatives of the people, must come
to ,the discussion With feelings of another kind.—
He did not mean to say, that there would he any.
bias on their minds on this account, but only that
having an interest in the laud, their feelings..
eauoot be expected to be. the same as those of the.
po; 'dace at large, who subsist on the produce of
the land. It appeared a most extraordinary part
Of the regulation, that the House was called on to
prevent the importation of Corn into the country
fur-three mouths ; and that there was still to he an.
i,importation going on under the warehousing sys-
tem. Bit the time to which it was-proposed to allow
the importation to extend to at certain periods,
could not possibly answer the.porpose, as it would.
he impossible to import Corn to the manufactur-
ing parts of the kingdom, as far as the Clyde and
the Mersey, therefore a longer time became ne-
cessary to enable them in those parts-to obtain a
supply. As Corn is a very perishable commodity,
be conceived that us hen it is imported into this
Country, to be kept in warehouses till the price
attain a certain height, there must he some pro-
-1 iic,u ma'de fur the importer, as
.other
wise sustain a dead loss upon.his•property. Un-
lesS sonic clause were introduced to this effect,
The consequence would be most serious, and no
persons would be induced to import. But this
Might be said to be only one of the- of the
subject. On the principal point, it would, in his
opinion, be most judicious in Government to re-
duce the importation price to 725. which would
a sufficient protection to the farmer: The'
first consideration should he the •interest of
the consumer. The main body of the peo-
ple are the consumers, and riot the -growers.
It was justly observed by Adam Smith, that the
questions which must always be acquiesced'in
are those which relate to religious opinions
and the necessaries of life. He was confident
that the price now proposed was laid too high.
It was impossible that the importation of Fo-
nip Corn could produce the injury described ;
for it had been admitted and proved that the whole
annual quantity did not exceed one-fortieth part
of the consumption, it was impossible that .this
one part could affect the price of the 39, though
that of the latter might affect the price of the one
part. There were, certe.ittly, some c muses which
bad operated of late, to affect !lie quantity con-
sumed; one of these was the return of the great
number of prisoners of war, who amounted to
about 100,000. This must have had some effect.
.i.uothet cause was, the number of persons who
bad gone front this dountry to visit the Conti-
nent, and who might amount to 50 or 60,000.
The- combined effect produced by this change must
have produced more effect .than had been coun-
teracted by the importation of foreign Corn. If
this is the case, we ate 'likely •to have bread
cheaper ; and if encouragement is..given to the
landed interest to continue the . price at 80s: it
could not be expected that they would make any
great reduction in their rents. 'He thought that
this was no more aline to settle the price of bread
or rent, than to settle what should be the ex-
pellees of the Peace Establishment, which the
Bight Hon. Gentleman Opposite had said could
not be, ascertained for tour or five years to come.
(No, no, from the Ministerial bench.) He was
firmly of opinion, that before the House should
separate for the Summer recess, the price of bread,
which we are now eating. -at nearly a shilling,
xvould be nearer to 18d. than to that price. He
wished the House would agree to go into a Com-
taittee on the subject, wherein clause by clause
might he discussed.

Mr. ROSE would advise the House against go-
ing into a Committee. The matter had already
been under consideration two or three different
times. A Committee had sat, and made a Report,
'and the Hon. Gentleman now says the House
must shut their ears agahist its contents. He
was ;is anxious a friend to the price of Corn being
as low as possible, as any man could be, and this
too, without such low price being injulions to
tie grower: and for this mason he wishes for a
full and free discussion.

Col. GORE LANGTON said, that being conscious
of the rectitude of his intention:, lie would divide
the /louse upon the question of the Speaker leav-
ing the Chair.

Mr. CALCRAFT was of opinion that discussion
would afford the best n►ode of placing the subject
in its proper light.
Mr. PROTtiRROE thought that instead of the
Hon. Member opposing the Speaker leaving the
Chair, the properest step would have been to op-
pose the going into the Committee. It was now
unfair to oppose the discussion.

Mr. WHITBREAD said, that the Hon. Member
behind. him (Colonel _Langton) had put the busi-
ness upon a footing to which it was impossible
for hint to accede. It was unfair to the House
and the Palk, that the i-lon. Member should
take this step, which would make a false impres-
s'on abroad, and induce many Members to vote
contrary to the way in which they would, after
hearing all the arguments which could be ad-
duced. Ile trusted, however, that the Hon.
Mcmber was not inexorable.

Mr. PHILLIPS Said a few words against the di-

Mr. ITOEINER spo!;e briefly to the, same effect.
lie had coine down with the sincerest anxiety to
bear the discussion that was due to the importance
of the subject, to hear whatever could he said upon
o great a question.—The House then divided,
For the Motion of Mr. Gore Langton
Against it
Majority ----191

nsittee.—Mr. BARING rose.
Mr. ROBINSON thoua,ht, as the three first Pe-
solittious were not objected to; it might perhaps
be as well to tia.ss them at once, and take the dis-
cussion,.
foiirths
on' the general question when they came
to thic
Mr. BARING said, his observations would he
- founded on'the fourth Resolution, whiclebrought
the whole subject before the House,
The three first Resolutions were then read and
-agreed to —On the fourth Resohititia., winch fixes
the price at which \Vheat shall be ifitooTted , •
Mr. Ross and Mr. BAniNG 'offered to .address
the Committee.—The Chairman named-Mrßosts.
Mr. 117-nITBREAD reminded the Chairman that
the Hun. Gentleman (Mr. Baring) having risen
to
.speak before the Right Hon. Gentleman pro-
IRAed..to pass•his'three first Resolutions,
regarded as: haYing possession of the Com-
mittee, • -
Mr. hose. denied that- the Hon. Gentleman had
been in possession of the Committee. He had
offered himself thus early, in consequence- of his
having' been called on ,by the .Hon. Gentleman
(Air. Baring) on a fosnier day. Ile was very
willing to give way to him, as he had no wish to
• trespass on the Committee before they were per-
fectly at leisure to hear
• Mr. BARING would have been nappy to give
way to the Blight lion. Gentleman, but that he
had an intention of moving certain amendments
on the Resolutions, which he wished to submit
to the Conitnitteesat the commencement of the
discussion. At the same time, had he thought
the Right Hon. Gentleman would have taken upou
himself this tesk , with.the sante ability which he
had tlisp;ayed last Year, he should have been most
willing to resign it to him. This, however, was
that which he ,could
.not hope. Fle had been very
much disappointed on the former day by the little
part which the Ris,!:t Hon. Gentleman had taken
in the proceelings, and this circutnstance, corn-
billed with the reports which lie had before stated
to have reached him, had made arPl'ehei)sive
that tie had changed his opinion with respect to
the Corn Laws. Had he known there was so strong
a feeling in the House hi- favour of the view he
(Mr. Baring) took at the subject, as had been ac-
cidentally manifested, lie dui not know lint he
should have abstained from putting himself forviard.
on this occasion, in. the hope that the business
%e u.(l fall into abler hands. He was glad.to see.
that feeling to-which.he had referred more general
than he had expected it would be, and he hoped
the numerous eetitions which had been, presented
in the last Session against the propused alteration
would not have been presented in vain. Foe him-
self, his opinions were not at all altered from
what he had stated them to be in the last Session,
anti in the Session before the last. He bad seen
nothing that ought to induce the -House at all to
alter their conduct with respect to the Corn Trade,
on the general principle, though certainly there
was a derangement of the labour and of the agri-
culture of the country to be observed which called
for a remedy. In cases of great commercial dis-
tress, though it was not consistent with the prin-
ciples which usually regulated the conduct of Para
liament to vote an issue of Exstliequer Bills, to
furnish the means oficarrying on trade, yet this had
been done in some instances, as it was thought
such assistance would break the tall to be appre-
hended, and considerably tend to remove the tem- •
porary difficulties under which our continence la-
boured. Something of this sort, it appeared to
him, might now be done, without injury to the
public, and without abandoning those principles
from which he would be the last man to advise
that house to depart. To the measure now pro-
posed for the relief of the landed interest he had
very strong objections. Notwithstanding a feel-
ing more favourable to his views titan he was pre-
pared to expect had been manifested, he still feared
there was in the minds of a majority in that 'rouse
a strong disposition to pass the measure now sub-
mitted to them in its present state.• Under this
apprehension he should proceed to communicate •
to the Committee the view he took of the minutes
of the case. After a long war, the return of peace
had caused that confusion and derangement in the
agriculture of the country, which might have been
expected. . The price of the produce, and, of
course, the value of land, must be affected by
such a change'; and it was natural that those
• who 'suffered front it should come to Parlia-
ment to seek redress. The question now was,
whether the Committee could or ought, on con-
sidering: the case of these persons, to infringe
every principle by which the commerce of the
country had heretofore been regulated, by giving
them an immediate abstraction of the Corn Lass s.
To do this was to do no less than to give them
leave, by keeping up their rents, and the- value
of their laud, to continue at a high rate the prices
of labour and of food. He wished it to be con.
sidered to what extent the landed interest was al.
ready protected at the expense of the•constsmers
and closely to look at what they were called upoit
further to do. For this purpose be would sub-
mit to them a few short estimates. Taking the
population of England, Scotland, and Wales, at
12,500,000 souls, and assuming the annual average
consumption of each person to he one quarter of
wheat in bread, and supposing halt as much more
to be consumed in Beer and Spirits, &c. Suppos-
ing this average to be correct, and that there were
no Corn Laws at all to prevent importation, it
would be found, from the prices which that com-
modity had borne in other countries from whom
we derived a supply, that in England the average
price of a number of years would have- been 455.
per quarter. In France and Flanders,
the price
on taking the average of a number of years, it
would be seen had been 40s. the quarter. Al-
lowing ss, per quarter for the transtnission of it
to this country, its price here must have been, as'
he had before stated, about 455. per quarter; for
under such a system, the price of Corn, in a ma-
ritime country like this, must be about the ave-
rage of all other countries. This would have been
the state of the case had that situation of thing's
existed which he had supposed. The Corn Law;,
however, had excluded foreign grain, when the
price of wheat did not exceed 655. the quarter ;
making a difference of 20s. in the quarter in fa-
your of the agriculturist. .It would hencebe seen,
that an annual bounty had been paid by a pop -u- '
of twelve millions and a half to the Cora

12,500,0001. in the Bread and Flour", which they
consumed. Add to this half as much More for
the Corn consuined in Beer and Spirits, _and
6,250,000/. must be put to the 12,500,0001. mak-
ing the total bounty paid by die consumers of
Corn to the landed interest in a year, cot less
than 18,750,000/. This was an advantage not
enjoyed_ hy
..the janded interest in any other
part of the .world.. Now .it was proposed
to raise the price at which the importation
of Foreign Corn should be prohibited, to eighty
shillings ; and doing- this, au annual additional
bount.y..of 14,000,000/.. was reqnired of the cow..
sumer. This, if acceded to, -Would raise the
hOunty paid.for the protection of the handed in-
terest to 32,7.50,0001. As'lle• did not wish to s.ay
any thing that could be considered as art all in-
flammatory, he wished it be understood that'
he did not take'llpon himself to say; that so much
went from the people into the pockets.of those
:by whom their food oral grown, ,but .he, reserved
to himself to consider if. it, were .necessary that
any-part of _this should In making
his calculation he had rather 'undervalued the
surirpaid. by the .consumer.. If a calculation were
'maim in another way, on the rent paid on all the
cultivable land, the. result would .be similar, 'and
it worild lie impossible not to see that an immense
bounty was given in this country to the agricul-
turist, which the agriculturist of no other cotu:try
in the world was
.supposed to be entitled to. 1 n
France there were certainly persons possessed of
great landed property.- They cultivated it and
lived on it with that sort of hospitality which
formerly was seen in England, but it was only in
this country that the proprietor of-- landed pro-
perty could securely leave his farms, receive their
produce and go abroad to spend it elsewhere. On
the subject of the additional bounty proposed to
be given he wished to address the Committee in
particular. Notwithstanding he admitted distress
to exist which called fora remedy,he was decidedlyof
opinion that protection might be extended too far.
It night be carried to a point which would be de-
structive to the manufactures of the, country
front the increasing price of labour, consequent
on that protection. They ought, therefore, to
proceed with cautionary steps, and consider well
the consequences of what they were doing, or
their _proceedings might cause incalculable mis-
chief. He considered it would be a waste of time
to comment on certain ingenious, but whimsical
statements, which had been made in the evidence
given in another 'place. He could not conceive
that ill that House there could be any understand-
ing so constructed _.as. to require to be convinced
that the price of labour might be effected by the
price of subsistence. He would assume this to be
conceded. The resolutions if carried would not
fail to augment the price of Corn and Bread, and
those of labour must he raised in progression. An
Hon. Friend of his, who had spoken in favour of
them, had declared lie would not support them if
he considered thent likely to cause bread to be
sold at a high price ; he, on.the contrary, was in
favour of them. as he was Confident their effect
would be to make it cheaper. Hebeheved the Hon.
Gentleman to be sincere ; but be could nut coin-
prebend the course of his understanding, when it
led him to look for such an effect from the mea-
sure in contemplation. The petitioners for a change
in the Corn Laws declared if the importa-
tion prices of Corn was not raised to 80s. they
could not live, and must throw up their lands.—
If the effect of the change should be that antici-
pated by his Hon. Friend, they must all be starved ;
for now their complaint was, that its.price was
so low that 'foreigners could undersell them in the
market; and unless protected against them by the ,
Legislature, they must be ruined. If the change,
then, should cause -the price of Bread to be lower-
ed, the farmers would be thrown out altogether,
they must give up their farms, and the conse-
quence would be, ,that situation. of things which
they were so fond of bringing forward to the
alteration which they desired. Agriculture would
be given up, and we nitist then depend on foreign-
ers for a supply of Corn, and take it at their price.
It was impossible Bread could be cheap if the Re-
solutions were adopted. The argument of those who
supported them would be consistent if they were to
say; these will ensure you a steady supply, but
you must/ pay for it, and it is better to pay a good
price for your bread at once, than to be dependent
on foreigners for the supply of an article of such
primary importance. This he could comprehend,
but that a measure brought in to give relief to
those who could not live unless corn were sold at
a higher price, would make bread cheap, was that
which he could not understand. What was the
case of this country ? It was that of a country
which consumed more than it could grow, and
which Must therefore have its prices regulated by
the charges on that portion of its supply which -it
derived frotn foreign countries. But it would be
said, if these Resolutions were adopted, a suffi-
cient supply would be raised at home. • This,
however, by the arguments of the supporters of
the Resolutions, could not be, if the effect of
them was to make the price of Corn low. Of
what use could it be that this Measure caused
barren lands to he turned into corn fields, if the
low price of Corn was immediately to throw them
out of cultivation ? He called upon the Com-
mittee to look at the returns which had been
made at various •periods, and it would be
found that in England—an importing coon-
try, the price "of grain had ever followed that
which was named as a protecting price.—
For five years before the year 1764, the ave-
rage price of Wheat had been 11.10 s. 7d. the quar-
ter, and an alteration was made in the importing
price in that year, and the consequence was the
average price in the five following years rose to
2/. 35., From 1701 to 1764, no considerable alt,
teraiion had taken place in the price of Corn, Par-
liament having left it to itself, it had fluctuated
according to the harvests in the different years,
but not greatly. No material advance took place
within the long period of 65 years, but in 1764,
an alteration was made in the law, and its price
was, in consequence, raised from 11. 10s. to 2/. 3s.
the quarter. From 1764 to 1794, no change of
any importance was made in the Corn Laws,
and the price of Corn was not increased,
to any- considerable amount. In the
fiif at all,
years,ve ending
in 1794, the average price
Was 21; 7s. the quarter. An alteration Was made

J

•
re
the average price was- 31. 9s. lie thought the
was no doubt, that raising the importati,°ll,
price 9f Corn would invariably raise the Pr`c-
of Corn and Bread. This he found on an
spection of our imports and exports at different
periods of our history. The great demand for
Corn unquestionably arose from the increased poi
inflation of the country, and from the military es-
tablishments, &c. which had been formed in the

course of the war. While we were a great ilr1„:
porting country -our
-prices had been low. .1-1
knew that it bad. been asserted the prices qt C°1:11
were low, when the importing price was 1411-
A garbled abstract of the . returns at certain Pe-
riods might seem to prove this, but .be had little
faith in the statement.. He did' not believe the
1 importations of Corn injured the interests of agri-;
culture. Within the last 20 years, England had
imported more over her exports, than ever site
had done before at any'period upon record. IC
was admitted such-great improvements in agrical
tufe had never been made before, as had been
made in this country within the last twenty Yea"'
No Gentleman could go through the countrY
without being constrained to admit that its Agri-
culture was in a flourishing condition, and to
this it had risen during this season of importation
This fact dispi•oved the arguments of the supporters
of the Resolutions, and proved the increased de"
mand for Corn which rendered a supply :necessarY:
was caused by our increasing population, and did
no injury to our agriculture at home. .But th.e
fashionable arguthent seemed to be the ,great va"
Joe of independence—that we ought to be hide"
pendent of foreign countries for a supply of Corn,
was that which the agriculturists wished to ests;
blish. That by keeping out all foreign Corn, an"
by cultivating all sorts of land at whatever el."
pence, we might procure an independent supl)lY'
was that which could hardly be doubted; .but au,"
thing could be more absurd than for any delibc".
rative body to decide on such a measure, as
Which would be beneficial to their country. fit)'
dependence in any thing would always be dear t°
Englishmen, but that we should raise Corn on
lands which were very good for other purposes,
but good,',for little for Corn, when we 'nigh
procure it at a much cheaper rate from oilf
neighbours, was a measure which he could not
admire, though it was coupled with a Dui'
thou of independence. What if the people '0
Norway and of Malta should, in the same waY'
resolve to be independent, and scratch their bar':
ren rocks. and sands to sow corn, instead of vs'Prh:i.
lug their mines, carrying on their fisheries, and
forwarding their manufactures, by which their
might obtain with ease, ten times over, the
greatest supply their agriculture could ever far'
nish. From Malta they might sail to Egypt f°l
soil to spread over their rocks, to receive the see";
but what- would be the result I The consequenc4-
of adopting such a system of policy would be this
---they would no,: he able to raise corn for the
population ; but they would cut down their poPuti
lation to their corn. They would not cut the 11e.
to the man, but. the limbs of the man to the beat
The soil of Scotland was bad in many parts f°g,
the growth of corn ; but if she were separated, is,
formerly, from England, and determined to u'o
independent, declare no one should go there ate
did not take his bread, what but misery could t 0
the consequence of such a resolution, to attempt t?
do that which nature had never intended her to 'lllO.
The soil ofEngland was much worse for the grow
ot corn than much of the land on the Curie
tinent. Bad harvests in this country were rou'd
frequent, yet to cultivate barren lands, it seelneit
a new 'System was to be acted upon, whiffh
threatened to destroy all the sources of our tveal:l,
and power. He did not say that the fifteen 51°
Bugs, proposed to be added to the present imnP"li,
i.
tation price, would produce such an effect, but
the plan were persevered in, that might be sacrl
ficed, the loss of which would be most injuricilis.
to the country. It might never be got back
again, and our present advantages might be I°st
in the same way as they were formerly gained, Iv
doubted not much more bad land could be bronl,i
into cultivation, if 80s. were the protecting Pri("ii;.
than if it was fixed at 70s. and still more 101fce.
be done in this way, if, instead of 80s. the price
were fixed at 90s. or 100 s. ; but the question `935;35:
would it be wise to -wait the success of this ee-
pensive experiment, and tell the people in tat
meantime, that they should eat no bread but W1,,j11
was grown in the country ? Not only would t'ds
measure be the means of bringing poor larity
into cultivation, but of improving those alre3;t, ,
cultivated. One of the witnesses bad said thlile
in consequence of time low price of Corn,
could no longer use the hand-hoe in colt ivatingly,
fields. lie (Mr. Baring) understood o'o
while price was no object, the cultivator eu
afford to hand-hoe, or hand-rake, his land Vorft
to make it a perfect garden ; but he could auoo,
to do this no longer when, from competitiot
Corn had become cheap. He did not see toe
such improvements were those which that 0° Ji •
ought to encourage at time public expense.. ti,
this were done there might be co end to the 3
ficial improvements made in agriculture, and the
might possibly soon hear of a large water flatness
ing constructed to be used in dry weather. '-i-Ltba
niceties were not wanted. They might suit aa
taste of some of the Corn growers, but they .„10
not answer the purpose of the consumers.
enconragement giv.en to the landed interest info>
end would have the effect of destroying the „as
nufacturing interest, aria then the Corn n'r°"
04
would be compelled to export their Corn, an"
of
that great desideratum in their eyes the ina-i jo ,en,
this country an exporting country would be g'l*.fica
To raise Corn in consequence of the high r 11;
to be ,paid for it, immense pastures w"uldi a;
ploughed up, much wood would be grub' be:o-1.1).
land would be artificially prepared for the gi 00
g
of Corn for which it could never be fit, and b;
raisin, of which its owners could never ott
appropriating it, but for time bounty offered use
that commodity. For. this reason be must cry)t
lre
giving any bounty in addition 'to that q
iarge#
given, as most injurious to the country at d'
and not less rightly considerable to the la
holders than to the other members of there in'
immunity, as they as much as any others, we Or
terested in promoting- the public good._ Sato Of
posing the House attached no importance .0 0
reasoning, still would he contend the preterls'0

, - - - •••••,.
o, s, ...1..411/4-0.,, CIMI l O.;
'fell nothing more than the evidence be-
tote the other House to prove it. . It was ins--
Nate to read that evidence, without seeing the
Partiality with which it had been drawn up.
prom the style of the witnesses-examined, it was
clear they were. all on .one side, but .nothing
e conclusive against them than there evidence
could have been hoped front the examination oF-a set of witnesses, • all of the opposite party. :In.
104
thought the price then named as 'the importation
"ee, a satisfactory price. It was for bins to shew 1013 r that which was then a protecting price, was.
TRIt sufficient now. It was said his expences were
Increased. He (Mr. Baring) hoeentle-
Men who treated this subject 'genperd ally; some
woGuld go
a little into the detail, and shew what these ex-
Nnees were, and how it happened that they would
oat be lessened in consequence of-a declension- in.
tae price of. Corn. .All his expences (excepting,
bt"es), he maintained, must follow the price of
t'ead• It was said the expence' for horses was
greater than in 1804; but as these were the
Produce of the farm (of some farms at least)
though that produce • bore a -higher price than
"'"rty, it was not to ••be taken into consi-.
deration as a serious augmentat:qn of the exe.
P'oces.of which they complained. Thl.: seeds, hat-
Illelss' and blacksmith's. work were mentioned.—
„ hat-
Ills' only gave an additional charge for labour,
-L
„'-'inels must' decline with the price of suStennce.
`he i a
ncreased charge for manure, • and the coin-
-I.lints founded on it, he considered as absurd.—
," cakes were spoken of as increased in priee ;
:D'lt it was evident that the miller would sell them
(1' the farmer at half price, rather than throw
-lern away, as the seeds must be useless to him
tvaeu the oil was pressed out. It was in one in-
4tinee where 2s. were formerly paid, as many.
t,citleas were now demanded -for the same quail-
ti„tY. Of this article. there could be no diminu-
t'oo in quantity; and it was therefore impossible
0I- arty Gentleman not to see, that it must he sold
for that price which the farmer could afford to
Pay. So much for the general merits Of the coin-
Plaints, of the Petitioners. The price fixed upon
ti 4 those who had given evidence before the Coin-
ttee, as that 'which would protect the farmer,
la's eighty shillings, and•the siitnesses who stat,
t'' this, universally stated on the supposition
that all the charges for taxes, labour, and rent,
l'ere' to remain the
.same. .As_ the farmers took
ii.e. Corn at a low, and every thing else at a
11l price,. in order to make out their case,
10* could the Committee give • them relief
under such circumstances, when they must
1.:1-0w it was impossible hit- the high prics of
t.tils our to continue, if the price of Corn de-
r:enied ?• One of the most sensible 'of the wit.;-
sses wilo were examined; had 'been asked, "Jf
bulelaieulated on wheat being sold .at Bs. the
saute
I.' the expences of-the farmer continuing the
is!'i• ' W!tat Would be his ,profit ?" The answer
ve-a %,,,,,. •
tau,
~ -0, that " if the question were founded on
tat. ti;!'e',farmer would lose 21. 105. thequastei .
laho 's could not be, as hisexpences for horses,
xhit 11r' 81e. must of necessity be diminished .to ad-
u--as,7ifil his selling his Corn at that price." • This
they °the,
had .a,,,_ wordi, telling the Committee that
asked a very foolish question ; such -a
one as the
the 1 ' Y Could not- have thought of asking, if
Y lad ha
The
sync ''. .011 e sensible man among them all.—
witness, was asked this- question—" Are
tiotill.
rho., di HY of the expences of the farmer the same,
1/ -4g° the value of his,produee is diminished ?"
sh.le answer given to this' by Mr. Webb, who, it
"°41(1 be remembered was himself a farmer, was
' that they might be for sonic! short time, hut could.
tbiQt he for any number of years." This answer be
t'"hglit conclusive, and every one of the wit-
ilcs ," bad answered to the same effect as Mr.
erb e°b, though not so very distinctly and to the
7 Pose ; and- all wanted a protecting price of
s• if their charges were to continue the same
b a,itPreewil.- It had been said the rents paid had
t 00titug to do with the question. He should like
r7tis„ bear some 'Gentleman state this in that Com-
te e, and give his name to it. Among the wit-
fsses examined was a Mr. Brodie, a great Scotch
Z4lelehaut, who held an estate for which he
paid
, l tit.rt per annum. Some years ago, he had
paid
m
te sae lands but about 20001. This rent had
vepadvanced from '2Bs. per acre to 51. and some
61. ills neighbours had theirs raised to 6,7, and
benPer acre. He considered his landlord had
e .1
t moderate in only increasing his rent from
...;31 t
~, ; 0 51. from 20001. to 60001. Were they
to told, that if his rent were lowered again
~..-coook that it would make no difference ?
Nettling was more clear than that it would,
,!
41e 1" g more obvious than the fallacy made
lie of by those who asserted the contrary.—
tesseousidered the measure now called for lume-
n),and improper, as a moderate sacrifice on
N. Part of the landholder would answer every
tisie°se. On the average, a fourth produce of the
;ad went to the landlord, a fourth to the tenant,
Ciat the other two-fourths were expended in
4iise ges• Now ,talon
'takin
ta
g Bs. to be the gross pro-
ft of the land, 20 would go to the landlord, 20
%v. 'e tenant, and 40 for Charges If the landlord
(told •
a., 'go back to take but what he took 20 years:
rs.Nutt would receive but 10s.; but still, though
1)r,,,t4g but one-eighth of what had been the
tilmioiee of the land, he would be in as good a si.,
foi,t„)" as that in which he now stood. Let a
el,d `.'.l,be deducted.from the profits of the tenant,
iiii,l
ti u'arth from the suns set apart for charges,
take,,it.e. result ' would be 25 'shillings might be 'lse ~-:..r°'" the 80s: and this , would bring down
the re,c of the quarter of Corn to'. 555. BLit if
kid a'l"lord shoidd go back only half so far as he
the
rie'ioPosed that be should—if lie only lowered
I t, 4.0 f an estate, which had been raised from
le
t.. 11 i°,(3" to 1500/. that might enable the tenant
.'etwe
."' C)l:u_at-,605.- and lea‘e a
„good maygin
4,,, ll the sl.-Ilin••• price and the present Protect"
`'"lllititl('-e '°1•• (i'ss. bl.' 'here was. something which.
f ' nut to Escape .
of
~itch the notice the Comnrittee,
e fernWaS the difference between the present and
•
ler style
of
101-the
cot .
.. living among the farmers all
..10 ult.y. Formerly a bottle of port was
Aviii it a „in
4I .411,011 b ',lt luxury ; Ina riots', go where you
vt, a he g thefarmvrs, you will generally find thby
if'Alict tootlett 'of Madeira to put beside their Port.
1 .11,-ev ensure them for indulging in luxuries
Atit, e°4l(l iffn, 1
' •-•( to purchase t tem,
e t odurckl that they should come to Pat--

LI,

1

I]

ament and petition tc be supparte4 -in thew ;it
the expence of the community at large. Yet this
was what. they were now doing, for every one
who knew Any thing at all of country matters,,
knew that the farmers now drank their wine with
as much gout as any Gentleman in that House.
If, notwithstanding ail he had said, the Commit-
tee did not think any 'of these things worthy
their consideration, if they thought the landlord
ought -to abate nothing of his rent, the tenant
give up nothing of his profit, still would he main-
tain, that .a protecting price of eighty shillings
was that which could lint be justified. Of the
witnesses before the Cononittee, Mr. Maxwell,
and Mr. Crabtree, ha'd mentioned 755. as a good
protdcting- Mr.- Mann., had spoken
of 725. as beingr,snflieient. After this, if the Com-
mittee did not take itito
,their consideration the
alterations in the :4_iyiee of 10.30ur., of rent,. &c.
Which ought to take place, nor the change which
might be made by the tenant in his mokol-
still would 80s. be a most extravagant price to
fix, as that at which foreign COrtimight be import-
ed. Mr. Henny had cal-Mated,' ,tirat 7s: br Bs.
'per bushel would be a
,proper...protecting price,
and therefore if they came to decide on the single
naked question, what shduld be the stun tley
ought! to •name, .they must: be, of opinion 80s..
would be too high. Whatever the Committee
did, he trusted they would look at the "subjeet
with eyes very different from-those of the Com!:
mittee who. had sat up stairs. He was not,against,
giving the farmers relief for some distress be believ-
ed to exist at present. This indeed could not be
denied, and thotigh it might be said that the farm-
ers ought to be more cautions in taking their
leases and purchasing their land, still lie was dis-
posed to assist them, prOvidtid it could be clone
without injustice to the Public. This it appeared
to him might be effected by raising the importaL
tion price higher for a limited period. He would
propcie that the present price should be taken' as
the pr ..-ecting price. 'I his done for a period to
be then to be gradually lowered, would,
he thought, give the farmer time to recover him-
self, and ten 'to 'bring things back' w their old
state by gentle degrees He should first move,
that the words " for a time to be limited," should
be inserted in the early part of the Resolution
before the House. The question. respecting the
Bank. Restriction Act, he considered as not re-
motely connected with this subject. The Paper
Currency, and the Country Banks; it appeared
from the evidence, had had considerable influence
on the price of Corn. A permanent measure with
respect to the Corn Laws ought not be decided
on at present. What he recommended he pro-
posed as a temporary expedient. !Having moved
as an Amendment to the Resolution before the
House, that the words " for a time to be limited'
! should be introduced :he stated it to be-his in-
tention to suggest the propriety of substituting in
the after part of the Resolutions, for 80s. 765.
which pt ice he felt disposed to prefer, in the- pre-
sent instance, to 725.
Mr. PRESTON said he could not suffer the pre-
sent question to pass without giving his -decided
opinion on the subject. He then- began to s_ hew
the great advantages of agriculture, from the time
of that most sagacious and politic Prince Henry
VII. ,in whose reign it was allowed that pasture
land was a. clear profit, bat tint the cultivation of
corn was a great risk, and therefore ought to be
protected by all fair means that were posSible.
That great sage of the law, Lord Coke, was many.
years afterwards, when the subject was better un-
derstood, deCidedly of the same opinion. 'Froth
the time of Lord Coke, agriculture had risen in
estimation, and Was now arrived to that height,
that during the late tremendous contest, had, en-
abled this country to triumph over all her enemies.
He confessed he was not surprized to find that the,
Citizens of London were impatient and clamorous
against paying 30 per cent. more.for- their bread
than was paid in the country. There was no rea-
son for this : they ought unquestionably to have
their food as cheap in London as at Exeter, where
meat was sold for sd. and 6d. the pound, which
in London fetched 10d. He was clearly of opi-
nion, that unless the Parliament encouraged the
agricultural interest of the country anti supported
the farmers, which was the only sure way to
make bread cheap, the worst consequences mus

Sir F. FLOOD requested the indulgence of the
[louse till he said a few words on •the present
pestion, which he was the more induced to offer
o their
.consideration, because neither of the last
speakers had said a syllable on the state
of Ire-
land. He adverted to a meeting which bad taken
place in the county he had the honour to repre-
sent (Wexford), consisting of laymen, spirituals,
and other agriculturists—((Y laugh) ;—and from
these proceedings, it would be seen, that such
meeting was of one opinion that there could be
no distinction or difference of interests between
the agriculturists and the manufacturers,,and he
who was not a friend to either was an enemy to
both. Ireland had in the course of eleven years
sent. to this country eleven millions of quarters of
grain, and this was a fact which ought to con-
vince this country how very important the con-
nection -between the two parts of the United
Kingdom was to each. Viewing things in the
light he did, he thought the House was it) duty
bound to encourage the agriculture of Ireland;
and he should therefore vote for the largest shin.
Lord BINNING, said, that after the very clear
manner in which the case had been opened by his
Right Hon. Friend. (Mr. Robinson) he had hoped
that all the Gentlemen who took part in the ills-
cusSion Would have abstained from examining it as
a question of party, and.above all, that they would
have abstained from throwing out topics of. inflam-
illation. He was sorry to find that in this hope
he had been somewhat disappointed. The Gen_!
denten on the other side had attempted to narrow
the question as with respect to those who took the
side of it that he did, but to indulge them Selves
in a very wide field of discussion. They stated the
question shortly to be a question between the
landholders and . the whole community ; and
sometimes they put the land-owners on one side,
and the poor on the other. He must deny that
this was any thing like a fair statement of the case.
He should contend that this was no question be-
tween the interest of the country Gentlemen and
the Manufacturers, or between the Landholders
and the Poor. When they talked of the whole

coar:;!d;:t7, lie couhl riot exactly see what they
meant. they forget, that upon the Land-
holder' depended the farmers, the labourers they
employed in-agriculture, and tire different mecha-
nics and little shopkeepers in the country towns,
that were supported entirely by the agricultural
interests. If all the persons thus interested in
the prosperity of agricniture were reckoned, he.
believed that the majority of the country would
be found on the side of the question which he
supported, and that those who were called in ar-
gutnent the whole community, would he found to
be -a minority. When an Minoru-able Gentlenian'
(Mr. Baring) had stated that Corn might be im-
ported ai"45S a•tfUarter, and that all the excess of-
price above that was a tax levied on the eonimu- •
dity for the benefit of the Landholders, he was
really surprised at hearing such an argument -from
a Gentlernairso acute andsclear -in his CO mprehen-
Sion. What was that contiguous country from,
whose ports we were to .be sapplied at that price-?'
It was' France. It -;.was• therefore-necessary to,
compare the situation- of that county with that
of Great Britain.' France had a population of 26 or'-
27 millions, a revenue of about 35-millions, and a
debt of 70 millions. • In Great Britain (he should dot
speak of Ireland at present) the. populatiOn was
12 millions and a half,' the taxes 'GO Millions a
year; and 'the. debt between 8 .and 900 millions. It
therefore appe3redthat the people of France viere
taxed the rate of less than one pound •for each •
individual, while the people'of this Country Were
taxed at the rate of five'pounds for each. "Under'
such unequal circumstances, it was ridiposiible that
there could be 'an equality of prices;- The IlOn.
Gentleman thought proper to make many remarks
on the onode•of expense of the farmers and their
families. It appeared however, surpris-
ing, that he should have forgotten the growth of
the wealth and magnificeifee of the trades-people
within the same time. They, too, occasionally
indulged themselves with wine .as well as _the
farmers ; but he was so 'far: from being.displeased
at this, that he was' happy. to:, see the, increasing
wealth of- the mercantile part of the community.
He must deny the statement of the Hon. Gent. that
the landholders of other countries resided more
upon their estates than time landholders of Eng-
land. He believed that -the very reverse. was :the
fact. He believed. that therevras not. a country
upon earth where the -landholders resided so
much Upon their estates. ;-They:there_fortned the
Connecting link • between the crown and the peo-
ple, and diffused-blessings .thraugh.the:Conntryin
consequence or their residences superior to what
the owners of other 'countries did : and yet
this was the -class of people that it . was now
,en-
deavoured to hold up to public odium- An' Hon.
Gentleman who spoke on a :former night (Mr.
Marryat)., had•professed the g-reatest,.disintereg7
edness in the capacity. of ••a -country-gentleman,
amid had spoken of the -great. increase of ,rent 9n. a
farm-that was' in his family for a long time. This
increase the Honourable Member, seemed to think
was too great, -and therefore
.that it ought to:be
given up' for the good, .of • -the •country.,,Such
conduct he would allow to be very ,disinterested.
An-Honourable, Gentleman (Mr. • Baring) -•had
stated the evidence on the report, as if no one
bad 'thought of a higher price than' 80s: • He
might, however, see in that report that Mr.Artbur
Young, Mr, 'Wakefield,-and others, did think of a
higher price, and stated. it. For hiS part,. he
could not attach much Weight to the evidence of.
Mr. Mant, which had been so much relied on up-
on the other side. Mr.-Mant was not a farmer,
but a merchant (a very respectable man no doubt),
-but he was a merchant who had taken .a farm.—
He-had not stated the result of his experience for
he had none; but he had stated what be-supposed
that his experience would be in future, from the
calculations that be had made. As to the taking
Off the Property Tax, he would allow that that
mast in ike some difference, but not:nearly so great
as was generally ;opposed. On an average calcula-
tion of a•farm of a hundred acres, all the direct
taxes, including the tenant's property tax, might
be calculated at -181. I's. 4d. while the poor rates
alone amounted to 33/. 19s. 2d.. He would rate
the tenant's -property tax at 2s. 6d. an acre, at
the very highest. Now, as the average of a
wheat crop was at least three quarters to the•acre, if
We were to divide this half-crown by three, it
would appear that ten-pence a quarter was as
much as that Property Tax affected the price of
Wheat: The Parochial Taxes, on the other hand,
might be considered aka charge of 2s. 101. on the
quarter. The removal of the Property Tax, be-
sides, could not be considered as clear gains to. the
farmer. Other taxes were necessarily imposed
their place. The addition to the• Assessed Taxes
Would be felt by the farmer, and, as he heard that
they now drank port wine instead of ale, the new of 20/. a tun must also partly be paid by them.
In the depressed state of agriculture for the last 12
months, some relief was absolutely necessary.—
Numbers of persons-had been t'nrued out of em-
ployment, and the pressure of the poor rates was
become intolerable. It would be said by some that
this depression was but temporary. Supposing
even that. it did proceed from temporary causes,
that-would not remove the burden from the diffe-
rent :parishes. Most enormous losses had been
suffered in. the last year ; and If some speedy
remedy was not administered by.the wisdom and
firmness of the Legislature, the agricultural inte-
rests of the country might soon-be completely
ruined. It. was not asking for a minimum, of price,
to ask for. a price to be fixed at- which foreign
farmers, might be allowed. to import' their Corn,
duty free. The price of Corn in, all the markets
of England and Scotland was in a great measure
governed by the price at Mark-lane. He believed
it was perfectly true, as had been stated by one
lion. Gentle Man, that it was time increase and
improvement. of Our agriculture which principally
enabled this country to get out of the desperate
contest in which we had been so long engaged,
with honour and success. Ouragricnlthre could not
be, carried on upon-an extended- and improved
scale, but by the application of large capitals.
It was impossible to give time farmers a remedy for
what losses they had already met, but it was pos-
sible to save them from still greater 'losses. He
believed. that the country never yet sustained so
great, a loss as it would suffer now, if the legisla-
ture were'not to interfere. A great deal had been
said against the improvement of poor lands. if
such expressions were to go forth as the senti.

mews of the legisla:ure ti',.:on the sabject, it
would cut up all improvement by the roots. ..the
light lands would be first thrown out of cultiva-
v
n oninto degenerate and inferior pasture. In
many districts of the country a want of capital
wag. still strongly felt ; so slow was the applica-
tion of capital to agriculture, even where there •
had been encouragement. How much slower
would be the-application of it, if it was pointedly
discouraged. by the legislature ? When an Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Baring) talked about attempting
to cultivate sand-and rocks, did be recollect what
was the state of the County of Norfolk. before
the- new and scientific system of agriculture bad
. been introduced there ? Norfolk was now a pat-
tern to other countries which were more favoured
in their soil. From the improvements of agricul-
ture, we might now see the progress of cultivation
up the sides of bills, which .bad never before been
ploughed. We saw black moors now yielding to-.
• the plollgh, and giving crops, not of wheat, .but
of oats and rye. On the subject of Ireland,
should forbear to speak at present. It- was not
that he did not feel it of the-most vital impor-
•cance, and a principal feature in this question 3,
but he .wished now to come to the great question,-
--what was the country from-which thee. Gentle-
men on the other side expected to draw.their.sup-
ply ? He thought that it could not be too often rung
in the ears of the House, that that country was
France.- France, previous-to.therevolution, was
not an exporting country. it- had, however, since,
been greatly improved by doing away of mapy-,
.abuses,' that existed prior to the revolution, and,
by thealivisiou of lands that took plate subsequent •
to-it. :He then read an extract from a letter which.'
he had received front an' English GentlemarLin.
.Paris, stating the very .
.prices of Corn:in
France, and the impossibility of our ageiculturists,
contending againSt them witholit Parliamentatiy
protection. France was :now •ready to export all
her surplus produce to this country,:and her .last.
harvest had been .most abundant. Supposing that.
the system should. be- established of depending
upon France for our,supply,,and a scarcity should
take place in that country,..whAt,wOhld then be-
come of us ? put this Supposition on the,groand
of our being long at peace with France, which he
ardently . hoped-might- be the, case,: and:which,
from the Wisdom - and virthes'-of 'that expellent
King,-who,succeeded Our.lateierremys as well as;the•
temper and moderation of his Majesty's Govern •
ment,-he was led to -expect!. :Rut supposing a war.
to take place, .when • France,- that-, had' become
our granary, should declare-herself our-enemy. In
that caw, it would clearly be in the power of
France,iby refusing- a_suppiy 'of corn, to placethis•
country-. in-a.most, diStressed-.-and perilous•situa-
lion., He hoped, indeed, that even wars might; its
future be conducted upon more liberal principles.
than hitherto ; but still he could not risk-the en-
tiresubsistence of the nation on sitch a hope, and
be content to. rely on the generosity of an enemy.;
‘• The- Plough, the Loom, and the Sail,"•was an
old and -favourite -device to this country. The ,
plough,.hoWever, was placed first in ranks as he
thought it deserved to be.. Did Gentlemen now
wish to degrade it froth that rank which it was
formerly coneeived to be entitled to ? Whatever
might be said of the importance of foreign cern-
merce, the whole amount of it did not exceed ones,
tenth of our internal trade. If from;the ruin of
agriculture, the means were diminished of 1)!V-
-chasing manufactures at borne, the dot Wing of .
our foreign- co:Nrn;:vce svueid not replace the •
country in the situation that she is in at present.
• •Mr. ItOSE said, that•on a former night-an Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Baring) 'bad assumed, that he -
had entirely changed his opinion and view of the
subject. He would venture to say, that his mo-
tives were as disinterested aS• those of any other
'Member, and that there was nothing which could
bias his conduct against the common interests of
the country. Ile certainly could not agree with
that Hon. Gentleman -in his statement, that a
bounty.of IS millions was now given by the coin.
immunity to the landholders. of this country : nei-
ther could he agree with hint as to the facility of -
bringing corn front France. He was convinced
that ss. a quarter was far less than the expellee- of -
carrying it. AlthOugh in sonic countries, as in Po-
land, corn was easily collected at the sea ports by ,
Means of great navigable rivers, yet the corn Which
was exported from France was•collected in different
districts, and broUght at a considerable expellee
to the ports front which it was afterwards to be
exported. There certainly was last year a most
redundant harvest in France, and Corn could,
therefore,- be sold cheap ; but he did not believe
that France wOuld ever be a great exporting court- •
try. He had always, however, a decided objec-
tion to being- dependent upon foreigii supply. He
had always said, " Protect the Corn-growers of
this country in the first first place, give them.a
Moderate anti reasonable, protection, and then
afford every facility and relief to the consumer.''
Tl.s had been
ralways -his opinion-, and he bad
never expreskd any Other. He belieVed that no-
thing could be "more mischievous than an tin..
shackled importation. • •When, however, last year
it was proposed to change all the -laws that regu-
lated and controuled the exportation of Corn, he
opposed so great and sudden an innoyation in a sys-
tem,of laws that had existed for 500 years. He
thought it rash and imprudent to overturn that
sys-
tem on the sudden feeling of the moment. He, how-
ever, then said, that if they-- had thus chosen- to
grant a free exportation of corn at all times and
•
under all circumstances, they shoidd be particu-
larly cautious with-'respect to allowing importa—
tiOn. , As to what had been said of the evidence
of Mr. Webb, he must observe -that that -Gentle-
man was so perfectly convinced that prices could
not be kept up to what they bad been some t.iree
back, that in all his leases, he put a condition
that the rents were 16 'NI as the prices fell. As
to the new taxes, he did not see hove, they could
affect the farmers. A to the poor-rates, he was
inclined to believe that they would rather fall than
rise. uninformed as be felt himself upon this sub-
ject, and wishing to Obtain,informathlt, he had
voted for the appointment of a Committee to inves-
tigate it. The Committee Sat a considerable time,
and bestowed considerable pains ut:on the investi-
giition. As he had not, however, at the tnae
heard the whole of the report read, be should now
comment upon those parts of it to which be would
have objected if he hart been present. In the first
place, there was a mistake in the report, which