The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-09 00:00:00

APPREHENSION OF MR. APLEOD.

Lord STANLEY rose and said—Seeing the Noble
Lard the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in his
place, I rise for the purpose of putting to trim a ques-
Lion of which I gave notice the other evening,
and that question is one of so important a
nature, put at a period so critical, that I am com-
pelled to preface the question by such a statement
of facts as I believe the rules of the House. will
1 ermit. If I go one single step beyond the rules of
the House I hope the Speaker will have the kind-
ness to stop me. It will be in the recollection of
the House that in the latter part of the year 1837, at
the time when, by the gallantry of the troops both of
the line and of the militia, rebellion had been put down
in the province of Upper Canada, and there was not a
single rebel in arms in that province, a band of
men organised, partly consisting of Canadians and
partly of Americans, was armed within the frontier
of the United States, posessscd themselves of arms by
seizing upon arsenals, the property of the United States,
and, in open day, took posiession of an island lying in
the Niagara river, the property of her Majesty, to which
they transported, also in open day, arms, ammunition,
and artillery, the property of the United States,
and brought over reinforcements of men to make
their position good. From that position, and with
those means, they for a considerable time preyed
upon the inhabitants of the Canadian frontier at not
inure than 600 yards distance, and in boats passing up
and down the river. This band was supplied on more
than one occasion by a steamer from the American
frontier, which they had chartered for the express pur-
pose with arms, ammunition, and reinforcements ; and
on the night of the 20th of December, that steamer
having been so employed throughout the day, a
body of men, with the authority of her Majesty,
and commanded by, or at least under the order of;
Mr. M'Leod, the Speaker of the House of Assembly,
who at that time commanded the militia of the pro-
vince, captured the American steamer lying on the
American shore ; and when they had captured her,
finding it impossible to carry her away, in conse-
quence of the rapidity of the current, they set fire
to her, and suffered her to float down the stream.
Sir, representations of these proceedings were imme-
diately made by the authorities of the State of New
York to the President of the United States, and at the
setae time counter statements were made on the part of
the authorities of Canada, through the intervention of
Mr. Fox, our Minister at the United States.
In consequence of the conflicting nature of the evidence
then adduced, the President, who was in commu-
nication with Mr. Fox, furnished him with the
evidence transmitted to their Government by the United
States authorities, for the purpose of being laid before
her Nlejesty'e Government, with a demand for reparation
for that which they characterised as an outrage
on the neutrality of the American States. The
counter-etatement from the Canades was, in like
manner, made the subject of strong counter represen-
tations on the part of her M ejesty's Ministers,
and the whole of the correspondence in the course
of the months of January and February, 1838, was
trans nitted to her Majesty's Government, accompanied,
on the part of the United States, with the demand for
reparation to which I have referred. I believe that, at
one period, information was furnished at the Foreign-office
respecting the transactions relating to that subject, and
the Colonial Office in 1838, and at subsequent pe-
riods, laid before us various statements bearing upon the
subject. Those public documents strongly support die
views taken by the Canadian authorities. Sir, I be-
liave that this country generally believes that this affair
is entirely settled; but on the 12th of November last, a
gentleman named M'Leod, who was engaged in the ser-
vice of her Majesty, and who filled the situation, I
think, of Sheriff of one of the Counties, but
who, so far as I have been able to ascertain the
circumstances, did not practically take any part whatever
in the affair of the Caroline, was seized in the
State of New York by the authorities there, on 1
the charge of arson, and committed to gaol. He
was also charged with having been connected with the
seizure of the Caroline—an act committed un-
der the sanction of the Canadian authorities in repelling
the invasion of the Canadian territory under the imme-
diate command of that gentleman to whom a military
force bad been, previous to that time, entrusted. Mr.
M'Leod is apprehended, and is about to be tried by a
Jury of the State of New York. I hope lam suiting
every fact correctly, I would be extremely anxious that
the Noble Lord would correct me upon any point of fact.
I am abstaining from making a single comment on any pat t
of these proceedings. Upon the meeting of Congress, ap-
plication was made to the President to lay b fore it the
communications with the British Government in refe-
rence to this subject ; and, in doing so, the President
among others laid before the Congress the strong re-
monstrances which Mr. Fox thought it his duty, as
British Minister and representative of his Sovereign, to
make against the apprehension and trial by the
State of New York, of a subject of her Britannic Ma-
jesty for an offence—(if it were an offence)--
which had been committed under the sanction of the
British authorities, and which Act was at that moment
under the consideration of the two Governments, and
had been for three years the subject of negotiations be-
tween them. The answer of the President was to refuse
altogether to admit the claim of Mr. Fox in behalf of
Mr. M'Leod for his liberation, principally on the ground
that the Federal Government in such cases had no
power to interfere with the authority of the several in-
dependent States, and also on the ground that if it
lied the right so interfere, this would not be a
case for them to exercise such authority, inas-
much as questions of international rights between
two countries in no degree interfered with the adminis-
tration of justice by these several States. Mr. Fox
closed the correspondence by the strongest expressions
of his regret at the views which the President had taken
upon the matter. He said he was not authorized to
express the views of his Government, but, on his own
part, he made the strongest protest in his power
against these views, and without loss of time would
lay the whole before her Majesty's Government for
its opinion. Sir, this is the position in which the
matter at present stands. A British subject was
arrested in the month of November : the Assizes will
take place during the present month, in February ; and
at this hour (and this is my vindication for interfering,
in any degree, in the matter in which communications
have taken place between two great nations, and which
are now in a very critical state), at this moment the life
of a British subject may be in jeopardy, in consequence
of his having acted in defence of his native country, and
under the orders and by the authority of the military
powers of this country, to whom he was compelled
to give obedience in repelling invasion and rebellion. The
questions I wish to put to the Noble Lord arc, inas-
much as this negotiation has commenced so early as
Jan. 1838, I wish to ask the Noble Lord whether he
has any objection to lay on the table of the House the
correspondence between her Majesty's Government and
the United States relative to the destruction of the
schooner Caroline on the night of the 20th Dec. 1837 ?
Whether the Noble Lord has received the despatches
of Mr. Fox referred to in the recent aecounts from the
United States dated 29th Sept., which Mr. Fox st ited
he had transmitted to the Government at home rela-
tive (and which I presume the Noble Lord has received,
he having acknowledged despatches up to the Bth. Feb.)
to the apprehension of Mr. M'Leod? --Whether her
Majesty's Government have taken any, and if so what,
steps for the protection of Mr. McLeod ? and whether
the Noble Lord will lay upon the table of the House
the correspondence upon that subject, between the Go-
vernment at home, the British representative at Wash-
ington, and the representative of the United States ?
Lord PALMERSTON—I must coafess the Noble
Lord has adverted, with great discretion, to a subject
of extreme interest, and which, from the gre it deer icy
of its nature, involving considerations of a very

PRICE 5d..

grave nature between the two countries; I am
sure the House will feel should he touched upon
with great reserve, either by the Noble Lord or by
myself in ray answer. Now, with respect to the stetc-
went which the Noble Lord has made with respect
to the occurrences which led to this nutter, it
is strictly, as far as my memory serves me, correct.
I will first answer the questions the Noble Lord has
put to me, and afterwards say one word in explanation
of the transaction. I think it is not expedient in the,
present state of the discussion between the two Govere-
ments as to the seizure and destruction of the Caroline
to-lay on the table that correspondence. Whenever it
is brought to a close, of course there can be no objection
to do so. Her Alejesty's Government having received
within the last few days despatches from Mr. Fox and his
correspondence with the authorities of the United
States, which correspondence has been furnished to the
public in the American papers, there can be no
objection to lay before Parliament those papers that
are already before the public.—(Laugh:er.) But this
is a departure from what I consider an important rule
in regard to international affairs—( Hear, hear)—
and one which may operate injuriously to na-
tional interests, to lay before Parliament documents
relating to pending discussions ; but as I have before
said, some of these having been already furnished, as
respects them there can be no objection. I think it
p meant to make, with reference to the notice to Mr.
Forsyth, one o'rservation. The Noble Lord said,
he believed Mr. M`Leod was slot one of
the party by whom the Caroline was attacked.
My information goes precisely to the same conclusion ;
but with regard to the ground- taken by Mr. Forsyth,
in replying to Mr. Fox, I think it right to state, that
the American Government nndoubtedly might have
considered this transaction either as a transaction to be
dealt with between the two Governments, by demands
tor redress by one to be granted or refused by the other,
and dealt with accordingly, or it might have been con-
sidere 1, as the British authorities consider pro-
ceedings between American citizens on the British
side of the border, as matter to be dealt with by
the local authorities. But the American Government
chosc the former course by treating this matter as one
to be decild between the two Governments, and this is
the ground on which they are entitled to demand re-
dress from the British Government for the acts of its sub-
jects. I assure the House that on a matter of such ex-
treme difficulty it would be improper for me to enter
into further remarks or observations, and I shall there-
fore content myself with answering the Noble Lord's
questions by s acing the matters of fact I have just
mentioned.

Lord STANLEY—The Noble Lord has not an-
swered one question at all. One question, and one of
great importance, I asked was, whether the Government
has taken any, and it so, what steps for the protection
and liberation of Mr. M'Leod.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON, after a tow words that
escaped us, said—Sr, a case somewhat similar in
principle to the present was expected a year and
a half or two years ago, and instructions were
sent at that time to Mr. Fox, on which he founded
the communication he made to the American authori-
ties. Of course the House will suppose, I trust, that
her M ijesty's Government will send—they have, in-
deed, sent—certain instructions ; but till we get the
conclusion of the correspondence it is impossible to send
final instructions. I trust the House will believe the
Government will send such further instructions as they
way think it to be their duty to do, but I assure the
House I am not prepared now to state formally what
those instructions are.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUME wished to ask one yestion of the
Noble Lord, but before doing se he must request the
House to suspend their judgment on the case brought
before them by the Noble Lord till they had before
them the whole of the papers on the subject. Tile
question he wished to ask was this :—lt appeared by
the papers which he had in his possession, that in Jan.
1838 a motion was made in the House of Representa-
tives, calling upon the Government to place on the
table of the House all the papers respecting the Caro-
line, and in consequence of that motion certain papers
which had been received from Mr. Stevenson. had been
I on the table of the House on the 15th of May, to.
ge7her with a letter from that gentleman ; what therefore
tie wished to know was what Mr. Stevenson's instructions
were upon whicla he had acted as he had done ? As
to the whole subict-, he hoped the House would not
enter into any discussion until the whole of the
documents were before it.
Lord PALMERSTON ;aid—l rather think that
my Hon. Friend will find in that correspondence that
instructions from the American Government were given
to Mr. Steven,on to abstain from pressing the subject.
—(Hear.) With regard to the letter of Mr. Forsyth,
I beg leave to say, that the principle stands thus :
in the case of the American citizens engaged in in-
vading Canada, the American Government disavowed
the acts of those citizens, and stated that the British
authorities might deal with them as they pleased—
( Hear, bear, hear)—and that they were per.
sons who were not in any degree entitled to
the protection of the United States. But in the other
case, they treated the affair of the Caroline as one to
be considered as that of the Government, and not to
be left upon the responsibility of individuals. Until,
therefore, the British Government disowns those persons,
as the American Government disavowed their citizens in
the other case, they would have no right to change their
ground upon the question.—( Hear, hear.)
Sir R. PEEL wished to ask the Noble Lord the
Secretary for the Colonies, whether there were not offi-
cers of her Majesty's army and navy engaged in the affair
of the Caroline, and wounded in that service ; and further
whether they had received the same pensions as they
would have received if they had suffered such wounds in
the service to which they regularly belonged ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he had understood
that officers of her Majesty's army and navy were em-
ployed on that occasion, under the orders of the Colo-
nial authorities, and that some of them were wounded
in that service ; but he had not heard that they had re-
ceived any pensions.