The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-06 00:00:00

smelly to 4,000 ; so that Government, would have to provide
acrommodation in prisons of the character of Pentonville and
Parkhurst, for an additional 1,00 prisoners in each successive
year. Four thousand would be the average number of persons
to be provided for at one time, and of course the
expense of the system would be very considerable.
But that was not al'. At the expiration of the preliminary im-
prisonment, the prisoner was to pass to employment. upon the
public works. It would be remembered that he had asked this
question what was to be the period of that employment, and the
Noble Lord opposite answered, about half the period of
transportation. Now, assuming that the term of ten years was
the average transportation, that would give five years employ-
ment upon the public works, and he calculated that under this
system there would he 20,00) convicts permanently employed
upon the public works. He ventured therefore to say, that it
was impossible to carry the system into effect. It would seri-
ously interfere with the demand for ordinary labour, and lead to
great difileuities and dissenting. At the expiration of the sen-
tence, the convict was to be sent as a free emigrant, and
free labourer to some foreign port, and if this part of the plan
were to be carried out, it would inflict the grossest injustice
upon the good portion of the population. Why how could
such a plan be tolerated? Government were preparing to
give to the convicted criminal, what hundreds and thousands
of the honest portion of the population were begging for, but
which could not, from motives of economy, be possibly granted.
But let them look a little further into this question of emigra.
tints, as it was proposed to be carried nut by the Government.
They already had some experience of the feelings, with which
the different colonies of this empire regarded the presence of
convicts. He would not assume, as was assumed by his Noble
and Learned Friend, that it was the intention of Government
to send these convicts to France, or any other foreign
country, but of this there could be no doubt that they would
he furnished with the means to enable themselves and their
f milies to emigrate. Now, where were they to eo to ? Was
it to be left to the convict himself, or were they to be sent to
some one of the British colonies, under the control, and at
the expense of the State? When they arrived in the colonies,
were they always to be free, arid subject to no control? His
Noble Friend at the head of the Colonial Department, must
not deceive himself with the idea that the character and con-
dition of these convicts would be greatly improved under such
an emigration system. They could not be sent out by driblets
of three's and four's at the time ; and if every emigrant ship
were allowed to carry a considerable portion of
convict; without previous notice; a fraud would be
committed upon, the good and honest emigrant.
Under such a system, there would be a separation between the
convict and the emigrant in the very emigrant ship, while
upon their arrival in the colonies, there would he a marked dis-
tinction apparent to every man between the treatment of the
convict sent out at the public expense and the emigrant, whose
name and character had been untainted by crime. During the
time he had the honour of being at the head of the Colonial-
office he was most anxious to promote the success of an experi-
ment upon a small scale for sendinss out to some colony a limited
number of the most reformed convicts. With the greatest
difficulty, the colony or district of Port Philip was got to con-
sent to receive them, amounting in the whole to fifty ; but
this experiment was made the subject of the greatest possible
complaint, and petitions poured in from every British colony,
praying that they might not be subjected to the
contamination of these convicts. Government had already
pledged itself that New South Wales should no longer be a
convict colony, and he wanted to ask the Noble Lord if they
would be keeping faith with New South Wales if they allowed
conviel ato emigrate to that colony under this new plan? Cer-
tainly they would be keeping promise to the ear but riot to the
sense, because the convicts were not to be transported in the
first instance. But he wanted to know where these convicts
were to be sent ? No doubt they would be glad to go to Canada
or New York ; but did Government suppose that Canada would
consent to be a receptacle of their convicts. By their prelimi-
nary system, Government would involve themselves in consider-
able expense, while, with some trifling additional expense, and a
little better management, they might greatly improve the existing
system in the colonies. The system of employing convicts.
upon public works must break clown, as it ought, the plan of
emigration would operate unjustly, and he was therefore,
strongly disposed to improve the existing system, by
enabling the more reformed of the convicts in the penal settle-
ments to emigrate to neighbouring colonies in bodies of three
and four at a time. He had taken the liberty of saying thus
much, although he was quite aware that there were many of
their Lordships more competent than he was to speak upon
this subject, because they had had more experience than him-
self, but, considering the hasty and extensive change that was
now proposed to be made in the criminal code of this country
—a change too summary to admit of its being carried into
beneficial operation—entertaining great doubts whether the
system was not, in point of fact impracticable—whether it
would lead to great advantage, or whether it would not be at-
tended with similar abuses to those of the present system—he
had taken the liberty to submit to their Lordships the doubts
he entertained upon the subject, to express his earnest hope,
that Government would take no immediate step in the matter
without Parliament and the people had had the fullest oppor-
tunity of considering the question, and expressing their opinion
upon it.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord DENMAN was rejoiced to hear the question so sin•
cerely and ably discussed by both sides of their Lordships'
House, while he was extremely gratified to learn that Norfolk
was to be entirely broken up.
Hand, as a penal settlement,
The terror, however, of transportation ought not to be with-
drawn from the minds of the people, and he must, therefore,
own that he viewed with dismay the proposal for altogether
abandoning that mode of punishing offenders. It would have
a dangerous effect upon a vast portion of the criminal popula-
tion of the country, who were constantly being instructed in
the arts of crime, who were leagued together, were connected
with large capitalists and well-constructed associations, to tell
them that, however great the •rime they might commit, they
should not be transported. Ile did believe that the fear of the
punishment of transportation -had a great effect in deterring
some people from committing crime, and, from ex-
perience, he could state that he had seen instances
where the terror of transportation was quite over.
whelming. But there was one fact which Noble Lards
seemed to have lost sight of, namely the importance of remov-
ing criminals of wealth and ability from all communication with
those whom they had been employing day after day for pur-
poses of crime. The receiver of stolen goods was perfectly
respectable in general appearances, in his conduct he seemed
exemphvy—paid his tradesman's bills regularly every week—
was considered a great benefactor in the neighbourhood in
whirls he lived, and hence he could always secure a retinue of
witnesses to speak to his character. Now, if they did away
with transportation, there was no punishment which could be
effectually inflicted upon such a man, and the crime of receiv-
ing stolen goods would be greatly increased.—( Hear,
hear.) Criminals could not always be imprisoned in
this country, because they would always find some
means of communication with their friends and relations, and
the result would be, that some false public sympathy would
be continually excited on their behalf. Criminals could not
be employed in this country on public works, as they were
at Marseilles. The people would not consent to have such a
spectacle continuously before their eyes. Besides, it was ex-
ceedingly dangerous to say to the criminal, that, in the event
of his behaving himself well, his term of imprisonment
would be confined to eighteen months' confinement, and
then he would be sent abroad at the public expense.
It was well known that the worst criminals were
generally the best-behaved in prison, and the reason
was obvious. They were cunning designing fellows, and
they knew that it served their turn to behave well.
There was one point to which he wished to call the attention
of their Lordships. If a man was condemned to death under
the present law, and if, in consequence of some doubt enter-
tained on the case, a compromise was made with him, and he
was told that if he submitted to be transported for life, the
sentence would not be executed—if he chose after that to
return to this country the sentence of death might be executed
on him. But in the change proposed by the Noble Earl if
the criminal returned after his banishment, they would be then
obliged to transport him again, so that the whole difficulty re-
turned, and he believed that the power of transportation must
be to some extent still retained. There was another
point, also, the consideration of which filled him with some
degree of pain. If this country found that transportation was
itone away with, he was apprehensive that a greater desire
would be excited to recur to capital punishment than at pre-
sent existed in this country. If this should result from the
contemplated change, he was bound to say that, in his opinion,
it would be regarded with great aversion ; but if people found
that the punishment proposed to be substituted for the former
system of transportation failed in repressing crime to the same
extent as it did, it was to be feared that the effect which he
anticipated would result. He then held in his hand a petition
against capital punishment; and it was well known that the
public mind was running strongly in that direction ; but if

anything occurred from"the prWosed change to increase the
amount of crime, the consequences to which he referred
would be likely to follow. He did not think it right
as the subject had been brought before the House, to be quite
silent on it, but he was of opinion that it would be much better

to proceed by Act of Parliament, in making any changes on
the system at present adopted. lie had no objection to the
Government endeavouring to diminish the number of trans-
ports, and improving the discipline pursued in the place to
which they were transported; but such large changes as those
contemplated should, in his opinion, be made with the greatest
caution and deliberation.

The Duke of RICHMOND considered that the greatest
danger would arise to the peace and to the security of life and
property in this country, if it once went abroad that transpor-
tation was to cease to be a punishment of crime. If three or
four thousand people were to be confined in future in the gaols
of this country, he hoped they would not attempt to introduce
such a system till they had the gaols ready for their
reception. Besides, he did think, with regard to the change,
that the term of 18 months of solitary confinement was by far
too long, and he thought they should have an opportunity of
being taught trades, and of taking exercise in the open air
during the period of their confinement. With regard to em-
ploying the prisoners re public works, as proposed by the Noble
Earl, he could not approve of that, as he considered transport-
ing them beyond the seas was one of the strongest restraints in
crime. Banishment from their own country operated, he be-
lieved, as a most powerful preventive, and the most abandoned
criminal was not unfrequently most strongly attached to his
wife and children, and native land. He hoped, therefore, the
Noble Earl would take the advice of his Noble Friend the Lord
Chief Justice of the Court of Queen's Bench, and instead of
proceeding on so large a scale as he proposed, to endeavour to
try what
could be done, first by diminishing the number of
transport?, and in any case, by proceeding by Act of Parlia-
ment. He thought, however,
t hatthe system of Pentonville
prison had not been sufficiently tried. With regard to the
hulk system, he did not think that it was possible to maintain
good prison discipline there. They put too many prisone.is
together. He was glad that the prison inspectors of Millbank
were to be removed. They should have been employed in
visiting the various prisons throughout the different es unties,
with a view to get a more uniform system adopted throughout
the country—the business for which they were originally ap-
pointed.
Earl GREY said that after the observations of the three Noble
Lords who had just addressed the House. he wished to make a
few remarks, which he would. do as briefly as possible. It had
been observed, and an opinion was strongly expressed by the
Noble Lord opposite ( Stanley) and also, he believed, by his
Nob'e Friend behind him (Lord Denman) that the change
proposed by
.Her Majesty's Government ought not to be carried
into effect without an Act of Parliament. He agreed that an
Act of Parliament would be ultimately necessary if these
changes were considered beneficial, and he intended to state
that in the course of his speech, but the magnitude of the
subject prevented him. Now, by the existing law, the punish.
ment of transportation could be commuted, and as they cossi.
dered that the present law was sufficient to enable them to
carry out the proposed plan, they did not consider it
necessary to require, at present, a special Act of
Parliament, the more especially as the system to
be introduced was merely experimental. Until the
change was fully tried and sanctioned by experience, they did
nut propose to apply for an Act of Parliament. They at
present commuted the sentence in regard to criminals, from
transportation to Van Dieman's Land, to sending them to work
on the public works in Gibraltar, at Bermuda, the hulks,
Pentonville, and Millbank, and the system now proposed was the
same there, but ou a larger scale. The meaning of seven
years' transportation was understood and acted upon, as four
years' imprisonment in these places now mentioned, till this
Noble Lord (Stanley), in 1643, sent the criminals abroad
on a large scale. Until the advantage of the experiment,therefore, was confirmed by the experience they had of its
operation, it was not intended to apply to ParliamentlD .ontilsohe
subject Besides, according to the opinion of Ad r.
who had just gone out there as governor, and.,
impossibley
indeed, ofe
one who knew anything about the colonies,
. it was_
to send convicts out there at present. His Noble Friend also