The Sun.
London, England, 1841-09-21 00:00:00

he meant to do with the unions that were not yet in-
cluded in the Bill for the Continuance of the Poor-law
Commission?
Sir R. PEEL said he had explained his intentions but
a short time since. He thought it mould be prudent to
include such unions in the general Act when it would be
bi ought forward. It would be competent for the Hon.
Member to propose in the Committee that some union
should be excluded if lie thought fit.
IRISH CHANCELLORSHIP.
Sir THOMAS WYLDE said he was desirous
of bringing before the House the propriety of his Right
Honourable Friend, the-Chancellor of Ireland, continu-
ing to sit in that House after accepting the office
of Chancellor. The principle of, the constitution
was, that whoever should accept such an office
should go back to his constituents before he could sit
in that House. It was rendered necessary by statute
that he should do so. But it was said that some
ceremony, requisite upon the announcement of
that appointment, had not been gone through,
and that therefore his Right Hon. Friend had not been
guilty of any violation of the statute. But he would say
that a more dangerous and decided invasion of the prin-
ciple of that Act of Parliament had never been made. His
Right lion. Friend had been, by the authority of the
Crown, appointed to the high office of Chancellor of Ire-
land . Ile accepted that appointment, and having done
so, he (Sir T. W.) begged to know whether the influence
arising from that office. whatever it might be, did not dis-
entitle him from sitting in that House, or what part
of that influence was withheld, the absence of which
entitled him to do so ? What practice could be
more dangerous than that a person so situated may be
able to vote on questions of supply, and every
other question affecting the property and liberty of
the subject? He, therefore, begged to say he would
shortly bring the subject under the consideration
of the House, adding at the same time that he meant
nothing personal to his Right Hon. Friend, for no
i
man could entertain a ' igher regard for him than he
(Sir T. Wilde) did, ut he had a higher regard
for the liberty of the ople and the character of the
House, which he thought' the conduct of the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman was calculated to injure. He
conceived his occupying his seat was an invasion
of the Act of Parliament, and he would feel it his duty to
bring the matter before the consideration of' the House.
Sir E. SUGDEN said that as he was not present. at
the early part of the observations of the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman, he could not make any
reply to them ; but he understood the Honourable
Member to say that lie (Sir Edward Sugden) was
acting unconstitutionally in retaining his seat in that
House, having accepted the office of Lord Chancellor of
Ireland. He would beg- to say he did so, because
he conceived that he did not legally fill that office
though he consented to do so. Ite—ttnsidered it
his duty to his constituents not to abandon the trust
they reposed in him, until he had lost it in law. He
would also say that he had not voted on any question
j since he accepted that office. He would say, and the
House would believe him, that he had no intention of
acting unconstitutionally, and he was never so surprised
as when, without the least notice—(Cheers from the
Ministerial benches)—he heard the speech of the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman. And when he was pleased to
say, in his speech, that he entertained kindly feelings to-
wards him (Sir E. Sugden) he could only say that
by his acts he did not show it.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
He believed he was standing on his right as Mem-
ber for Ripon, by maintaining his place in that
House. He did not wish to carry the principle to any
inconvenient extent, and if it were the opinion of
the House that he was stretching the constitutional
principle, he would at once withdraw—(Hear, hear)—
but he did not consider he had lost his rights as a Mem-
ber of Parliament until he actually filled the office which
he had accepted. At that moment he was not legally Lord
Chancellor of Ireland. Lord Campbell still, legally speak-
ing, held that office. It was not an acceptance of
office, within the, meaning of the Act, until
the appointment had actually taken place.—(Hear.)
It was not an acceptance to say he would accept.
The Minister might withdraw his offer. The office
was held by patent, and the delivery of the Great
Seal into his hand was certainly necessary before the
appointment could take effect. That seal still remained
in the custody of those to whom Lord Campbell had de-
livered it. The patents were not perfected, and therefore
ntil they were so, and until all the necessary cere-
monies had been gone through he could not be eon-
sidered as Lord Chancellor of Ireland. He hoped
the House would acquit him of any improper feeling,
or.of any presumption on the subject ; but he considered
that his constituents would have a right to accuse him
of neglecting their interests, if he abstained from occu-
pying his place as' their representative, while he had a
night by law to do so.
Sir THOMAS WYLDE rose to explain why he had
not given notice to his Right Hon. Friend, and in doing
so he would repeat those expressions of courtesy
towards him which he had before used, although
he knew that his Right Hou. Friend had a very-
peculiar method of acknowleding any courtesies.—(Hear,
hear, and a laugh.) He was not aware when he entered
the House that it was the intention of his Honourable
Friend to rut a question to the Right Honourable
Baronet opposite on the subject ; but that question
having been put, he felt it his duty when
he heard the answer, to Jose no time in giving notice of
his intention to bring the subject before the House ; and
he had consequently no opportunity of giving notice to
his Right Hon. Friend. In that intention he had been
confirmed by the very dangerous doctrine laid down by his
Right Hon. Friend, and gave notice that to-morrow
he should draw the attention of the House to the subject,
Lord J. RUSSELL thought his Hon. and Learn"ed
Friend was quite right, as the acceptance of office by
the Right Hon. Gentleman had been published. He did
not imagine that the Right lion. Gentleman opposite
wished to retain his seat improperly ; but the question
was one as to the construction of an Act of Parliament,
and the light Hon. Gentleman's interpretation was, that
no one could be properly said to have accepted office until ,
lie was in the full execution of the duties of that office,
and all the necessary preliminary forms had been gone
through. In some offices, such as those of a Secretary
of State, this could be done at once; but in others, such
as those of the Lords of the Admiralty, the
patents would take a week to make out.
When he (Lord J. R.) was appointed Paymaster of the
Forces, it was three weeks before tho patent was made out,
but in all those cases it had been customary, on the accept-
aece of office, to move for a new writ. If it was right, that
custom ought to be continued ; if the construction of the
Right Hon. Gentleman was right, then it ought to be dis-
continued ; at all events the practice should be uniform.
—(Hear, hear.) A case had occurred during the
late Administration, in which Mr. Horsman, having ac-
cepted the office of a Lord of the Treasury,
Hon. Gentlemen opposite had raised a question respect-
ing his having voted in that HOuse after he had de-
clared in his addresses to his constituents that he
accepted office. No further motion or discussion
of the subject took place on that occasion, but after
what had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman
he thought it extremely desirable that they should come
to some understanding as to what was the real meaning
of the Act of Parliament.

POOR-LAW.
Mr. YORKE wished to know whether there was any
difficulty in introducing into the proposed Poor-law Bill
a clause taking from the Commissioners the power order-
ing the indiscriminate separation of man and wife.
Sir R. PEEL would consider the question, and give an
answer to-morrow. At all events, he would adopt such
a course as should not preclude the Hon. Gentleman from
bringing the question before the House.
Mr. YORKE said that if the provision could not be
introduced into the existing Bill, it would bo necessary,
as far as he was concerned, to introduce a separate Bill
on the subject.

PRICE OF CORN IN RUSSIA.
Mr. HARCOURT had seen a Report from the
Consul at St. Petersburg, stating that, in 1835, in
the Government of Tamboc, in Russia, 58 mil.;ions
of quarters of grain had been produced, 'and that
the price of Wheat in St. Petersburgh at tkat time was
from 13s. 6d. to 14s. ld. a quarter. Ne-,v, this statement
appeared to him so extraordinP:fy that he should,
have paid no attention to it had it not been sub-
mitted both to th', Foreign-office and to
the Board of
if it were *-
grade. He
ifH eso, wiisthed to
mus
tknow
e
a most '.....'iportant bearing on the discussion of the
corn question ? The province was by no means
;.opulous, and there would be at least thirty millions of
this corn surplus ; and from that they might judge
what would be the production of the rest of Russia,
From the statement it appeared that the corn could be
had at the first hand in St. Petersburgh for 14s. a quarter,
the charge of putting_ it on board ship would be 3s. 2d.
a quarter, the freight of ss. a quarter, so that it could
be brought into the Thames for 225. 2d. a quarter.
Bs. duty would therefore be no protection, as with that
the price would be only 30s. a quarter. Now he wished,
as a County Member, to enter into a dispassionate Con-
sideration of the Corn-laws, with a view of seeing what
modification could be made in them without injury.
But this statement as to the corn produce of
Russia certainly required explanation.—(Hear, hear.)
They had arrived at these results by erroneous cal-
culations ; and he, therefore, wished to ask his
Noble Friend whether any information received in the
' course of the last year confirmed those state-
ments? If these were true, then it was impor-
tant that the agriculturists should know what they
had to contend with in the event. of die trade being opened ; and if the statements were incor-
rect, it was equally desirable to allay the ungrounded
alarm which they were calculated to excite.
Lord PALMERSTON said that there was no ground
for the alarm of his Honourable Friend, for the
returns -from which he had just read were
evidently erroneous. The province of Tamboc was
smaller than Ireland or Scotland in the propor-
tion of nineteen to twenty-two, and it was
not probable that its productiveness was equal
to that which was calculated in these papers. But
looking to the actual exports of corn from all Russia,
there was no reason for alarm. Even in the years of alleged
productiveness, 1835 and
8
from St. Petersburgh was none.—,(Hear, export of wheat
ar,laugh.)
and a Mr. HARCOURT said that he had felt no
alarm
whatever, and he had only to add that the document
from which he had quoted was official.
WAYS AND MEANS.
Mr. WILLIAMS said, that seeing thethe Exchequer then in his place, he would
C)uhtatnoceblilmor of
the
question he had before put to thte iwasi o.bt Hon. Baronet
intention to
bring forward the question of
(Sir G. Clerk), namely, when ilva
bring forward
and Means ?
EfoXrCwilarEdQthileEqßuesstiaoidn
-
e
thaTthiet CwHasAbNisCEinLteLnOtioßb to
le but nat sooner.
ofbthn
SYRIAN TARIFF
OWRING said that before he put the question to
On Monday next, if possible,
Dr. B
her Majesty's Government, of which he had given notice,
on the subject of the great increase of duties on export
' nd
import said to be levied m Syria since
hat province was restored to Turkiab. authority

EVEN-LNG SUN

he would request the attention of the,
to a .hort explanatory statement. For a Toni
there had existed between this country and the (
elllpiro a treaty ofeanmerce, by which there was a
3 per cent. on exports and imports. It was known that gr
a
abuses existed, and that these duties were subject to hittoryetaysmag
internal charges. In order to remove this grievance, in
1836 a treaty was entered into, the object of which was,
instead of a duty of 3 per cent. to impose a duty of 12 per
cent. on imports on the Turkish Treasury, and a duty
of live per cent. on exports for all internal taxes
were put an end to. He was aware, that with
respet•t to Turkey Proper, that treaty was of
great value and very important to commercial interests,
but the treaty could only have been entered into by
persons having an imperfect idea of the state of
Turkey, and its dependencies, because, in many of
them in which the internal duties were levied,
the old cluty of three per cent, was not paid.
In the provinces of the Danube the treaty
was altogether a • dead letter, while in Syria it was
grievously • oppressive. It must have been to this
treaty that Prince Metternich adverted in a despatch
of tha 20th April, 1841, in which he said that it'll&
was not altogether deceived, the Porte would have to aban-
don, i t the greater part of its dominions, the mode of
receipt recently introduced into several of them.
It w0,,k1 seem that the Turks had imposed upon the inha-
bitant-. of Syria enormous duties, contrary to the argu-
ment; entered into by her Majesty's Government.
His Kon. and Gallant Friend below, in an address to
th'e ;;;Tians, dated August, last year, said " The Allied
Powers have engaged to recommend the Sultan to make
an assangement which will make your condition
happy and prosperous. Lord Ponsonby wrote that the
Porte had engaged to make a remission of taxes. The
Noble Lord the Member for Tiverton himself said
the honour of the British Crown requires that the
promises made to Syria by the British Government
should be fulfilled." Mr. Wood certainly went very
far indeed in his promises, and in some of
his daspatches was very • extraordinary language ; for
this Turkish Envoy of a Turkish Government, called
upon the inhabitants of Syria, in the name of the
Koran, which he entitled " the Holy Book and the Sacred
Levis" to rebel, and Lord Ponsonby said so great was his
confi.lence in Mr. Wood, that he said, "I have instructed
Mr. Wood to consider himself absolutely free from the
authority and control of everybody in Syria, in his excu-
tion ta' the duties of the trust reposed in him by the Porte."
The Noble Lord, in answer to the complaints which came
to him of the vexatious proceedings of the Turkish
troops towards the Christians, required Lord Ponsonby
to give full satisfitction to them, and Lord Pensonby
stated that the Porte was ready to take any measure for
that purpose. Now, the Syrians had suffered much.
Their towns had been destroyed ; their fields had been
devaatated, and numbers of them had perished. He re-
joiced that his Noble Friend was present who was cogni-
sant ot; and a party to, the promises given. His object
in b: iaging forward he subject was to ask the Right
Honourable Baronet opposite whether her Majesty's Go-
vernment were aware that the 'duties had been increased
by the Turkish authorities in Syria, notwithstanding all
the engagements to which haled referred; and if so, whe-
ther any measure had been taken to obtain a redress of
those grievances ?
Sir ROBERT PEEL said the Noble Lord opposite
would be better able to answer the question than him-
self.— (A laugh.) He believed that in 1838 a treaty
was made, which for various internal monopolies substi-
tuted a duty of 9 per cent. upon exports. There had
been previously an export duty of 3 per cent., which
continued to be levied, and at present the whole duty to
which British subjects were liable was a duty of 12 per
cent. on exports. In some cases he apprehended that the
operation of the levy of that duty might have borne
hardly upon the native inhabitants, comparing the pre-
sent amount of duty to which they had formerly been
subject. Bat, upon the whole, he apprehended that the
substituticn of a duty of 9 per cent. in lieu of the
various monopolies and exactions which had before pre-
vailed, was an advantage to British commerce. Teling
Syria generally, he apprehended there could' be
no dout that the operation of the treaty hail been
satsittetory. Complaints were made by the inha-
bitants of Syria that they were subject to new impositions.
He believed there had been Commissioners appointed by
the Porte, who had been in communication %Rh the in-
habitants of Lebanon. Those people had demanded ex-
emption from the operation of :he new duties for a period
of three years, in consequence of the assurances which
had been given them by the Turkish authorities. That
questi ni still remained unsettled. It was, however, un-
der consideration. He (Sir R. Peel) could only say
that there would be every disposition on the part of the
Government of this country to use their influence with
Turkey, in order that the advantages which the Syriabs
had a right to expect from the interference of 13ritisja
authority would be obtained. The Hon. 'Gentler
_tan
himself must see that the object of the operatie.,,s in
Syria: being to restore Turkish independence, it
in our power to interfere beyond certain limits was not
only interfere in the matter of a British We could
injured, or in order to induce the Porto to fulfil the en-
gagements into which it had enteentered.'subject being
to restore Ottoman power when no The object being
such reasons as those
existed, it was no easy matter rior foreign Powers .to in-
sist on the Porte observing. certain conditions with re-
spect to its own subjects.. He repeated, that all the in-
fluence which Govere.ment could use in preventing great
changes
thentakig Pl'ace to the injury of Syria would be ex-
erted to r:
Linost.
Lord .P.
ALMERSTON said, that though the course
was P'.c a regular one, yet as he had something to do in
tsivase matters, he would make a few observations. He
knew well the feelings of his Hon. Friend in favour
of Mehemet Ali, and it was natural for • him to have
some anxiety on the state of Syria. The Hon. Gentle-
man was naturally anxious that • the treaty of 1838
would not be extended to Egypt, because its operation
would reduce those finances which Mehemet Ali applied
to pu, poses not agreeable to the Ottoman Government.
I With respect to the people of Lebanon, regulations were
entered into to prevent their being oppressed.
In reply to some observations from Lord C. HA-
MILTON,
Lord PALMERSTON said that Mr. Wood was act-
ing under the authority of Lord Ponsonby, but in obedi-
ence to orders from the Turkish authorities.
SUPPLY.
On the Order of the Day for going into Committee of
Supply being read,
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said that he thought it neces-
sary to inquire into the distresses of the country before
any grants of money were made. He thought it neces-
sary to make an appeal on this subject again to the
Right Hon. Baronet. He was the more tempted to do
so, on account of a communication which he had received
that morning from Rochdale. In that letter he was in-
fornaial that there were in Rochdale 136 families living at
the nee of 6d. per head per week, 291 at 10d., 508 at
Is., 1,850 at Is. 6d., 1,500 at ls. 9d., and 812 at 2s, 2d.
—(Hear, hear.) Five-sixths of the whole population
were almost without blankets. When such statements were
placer. in the hands of a representative, it was his duty to
call th a attention of the House and the Government to
them. The Right Hon. Baronet required time te., eon-
sider how these evils were to be remedied. He aaould not
object to give him time, but he thought five months too
long .n the distressed condition of the c.'ziuntry.—(Hear,
hear.) If the Right Hon. Gentlemaas could not give the
peoplo permanent relief, he would at all events alleviate
their sufferings by giving them cheap food.—(Hear,
hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet claimed also a renewal
of the new Poor-law Bill, diminished to the poor
the means of obtaining rePef.—(llear, hear.) His majo-
rities ould only sustaisi him so long as they were in ac-
cordance with the feelings of the nation, to which, if they
were adverse, the greater the majorities the greater his
future weaknass. The declaration of the Duke o
Wellingtor, that no reforin
The
oel
eSt
bosi
ehnl.
should
unu
lcieTdtu The
foe
Ministers
enn itrso et,declarationleiwresvo ewud.io,dual
ndo df
forcet
produceth haet
was wanted, produced
the former
rlstZmilieloe.fuopirde:
on the peoplew,as that
further thererefor coulded.
He
oofren-
elAa.tvlil i.l
even
rsirt:iieesfrrot
crtrrehocesealtnsbt
ftohreme(:nivtiiel convictionintt
C.) did not desire to advance the interest of any party, or
anyplai
complained
particular uwl ears
tmeasurehede idelay
no
ft
fivehe Government.ni ont,,
a nd
the i.ulefinite postponement of relief. He would suggest
that there should be a short adjournment of the House, to
enable the Right Hon. Baronet to decide on his measures;
but if that night lion. Gentleman persisted in the course
which lie had indicated, lie (Mr. C.) would record his
protest by saying " "to the motion for a Committee
of St:pply.
Sir R. PEEL could assure the lion. Gentleman and the House that he heard with the deepest regret ajaY
statement of the suffering of any portion of the pe0,13',....
At the same time he had a strong impression that_ it
ally
legislative very difficult matter to provide for such distress
legislative enactments and he would be
would only be conducing to deceive the people «ere Le
to ho! ,l out any such hope. All they Could hto do
would be to lay the foundation for improvements,i)
which
society
would make a gradual amelioration in the state
—they could not by legislation at once improve
he could not
the con-
dition of the people. He was sorry that
the acquiescence of
consistently with his duty purchase
the lion. Member to the motion before the Chair, by
holding out any such false hopes.
Right Hon. Baronet, for
every
the utmost depression,
factures was now in a state
greater pleasure, wait
and lie would, with infinitelyaa
Mr. THORNELY was sorry
jto
bhrseanrehtheofreopulry
mofaitilnte-
ann
adjourntte miAtotiallmtehlaiotrpaeteriothdewcoithn:
Comparing the weekly consump-
otdhoi
tetiroactilibotrifdl the
abpnrejuoraprlye,.ienth
the present time,
short space of one year. He had
and that within the
tion of raw cottoniliiitt:
sthheo%Lveidvearpdoiomlimnuatrikoent
oirnolnBe4.os
one-sixth,
tnhd,
found
il practicalcon v
iiinceed n,
thatir irrespective
propositionstiveofpoliticaof political otphie
late to -
nio ns ,v thatreaGovernment would tend greatly to relieve the trade
oftheic%
country. There was not less than 1,600,000
w
revenueh
e present 64 Od,OuOtyot,ofbuits., according
wouwould
yi
.ttdo
quarters of foreign corn in bond, which, at Bs. duty,
80,0001. to the Treasury, while.
r would not have been:
t‘hVeou
)1(
rbiyereeieldtt thanont thhaeettconsume
enhanced by the larger duty.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.)
ntlote presenti law,
In his opinion, this wheat would not have cost the con-.
sumers one shilling more, although the Treasury would
have gained upwards of half a million of money. (Hear
hear.) Gentlemen in the corn trade foresaw, and pro-
bably managed these averages.
cmc'nesasequlgsuceo
He was told in August
last, on the Corn Exchange at Manchester, that on the,
9th or 16th instant, wheat would come out of bond at.
was,
per
at quarterall e;
oarnddi
ntahrey
fofeotnahirns eexrepiecaltaptirnoxf
deuce were set aside, and corn was procured from abroad
to any extent, and at any cost It was usual to fix the
duty according to the value of the article. But let theirt
look at the present rate of duty on corn. Wite.at
was at Is. per quarter, barley 6s. 4d., rye 10s. 4d ,
oats 12s. 4d., and peas 2s. Then let them lotils
the operation of the Corn-laws as respected the rinited
States. It was quite clear that Gentlemen who ,ought
in Ausust last the duty would be now at ls. per • quarter,
would be able to bring in corn from the nearest ports in

-House
period.
k*a.a,Tl

i,