The Sun.
London, England, 1841-03-09 00:00:00

THE SUN 4 LONDON, TUERDA,Y, MARCH 9, 1811,

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cbolonial stations
which
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lastArtiylleearry n The
d ' Led
blyttioekforeign sta.
woArdisr. al‘ttirAibCatAedULtoAbYimdbeynietdbethHataah.e
Member. He
used the
maintained where a clamour which he thought uai
tinmueracan us. He had, hogsve
of
leen obliged to
leer • of the men on soai'veer,
an additional reason why a man of spirit and conscience C
and ill-tempered was raised against a man, it was.o:niclerste
lions, and if it she 'old be deemed advisably erwenhdeune et theh e
up the
should perform his duty freely and impartially. N
thaninhane present number cif men on the foreign an.d, eel!
respected the opinion of his countrymen more.
li• should be obliged next
sta-
kee always teens, •year to ask for an in-
(Mr. Macaulay) did ; believed they
to all crease. On the fourth vote there was an increase
ready to hear both sides, and to give fair pay
the owing to the appointment of a barrack aof 96/v
parties, and he believed that the course taken on m
wortsster
andat Tor -
the quay. Oa the fifth vote, for Ordnance-
percent occasion by her Majesty's Government was
to pairs in the United Kingdom andthe ' re-
one most consistent with justice, and best calculated
the admoni- keepers, barracks, clerks of works, &c., a great increase
promote the discipline of the army. Now
f a had taken place, owine
e to their being obliged
tion to which the Hon. Member for Bridport re erre to crest
new barracks and raise new
e one, and merely stated that a tenden.ey
first Waltham . Ordnance works. The
was a general was at Abh•ty
a corps in- _ ..„ , to afford an increased
to disagreement and dissension must render
d.
tate pro- means for the making of gunpowder. An
efficient ; and although it was not his immediate .b b
been i r dof 1 0
vieee to look after the discipline of the army, e'
le;
h n I, ifi)101, for maellinery. At Birming-
lieved ,'list to whatever cl.arges Lord Cardiganr miggih
'•-, muskets,nltheyeweeere obelieeerer t wash supplied
with
new
be liable, he had brought his regiment to av. e y h
*h A arms could h
elo aye el place in which
- 'n a very short time after its return se e AO lepte , which has cost 5,0001.
degree of efficieneY '
hear.) He could not sit down —(Hear, hear.) In consequence of a dreadful storm,
from India.—(Hear, . referred
point, to by the which had occasioned considerable damage to the sea-
without adverting to anotn.7rregard
for Dublin, with to line at Portsmouth, 6,900/. was required for its re-
Hon. and Learned Member .Whatever they pair. At
Halifax an additional expenditure of 4,800/.
Catholic soldiers serving in India.
' hold with regard to their religious establishments had become necessary. On the Cape frontier an ex-
at home, he thought there could be no doubt that if penditure of 2,870/., and at Gibraltar the Large sum of
they beat up for recruits in the Catholic counties of 22,000/. would be required. The works at Gibraltar on
Ireland—if they took poor and ignorant men, and put the sea line had long been complained of as out of re-
them on ship board, and sent them 15,000 miles from pair. It had been frequently patched up, but the ap-
their homes, into the midst of Pagans and Mahoine- plieation of steam navigation had create Iso great an
dans, where they were exposed to fever and wounds, alteration as to render it the duty of the Government
and were called on to fight the bat Ces of their country, to provide especially for the safety of places situated
they were bound to provide for them the comforts of like Gibraltar. It was necessary to have a g
te o d
od sea
their religion.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He line. Sir John Jones. who had erece
was quite satisfied that the happiness and morality of works in the Nctherlaals, at the close of the
the men would be improved by such an arrangement. last war, had gone out to Gibraltar for thew pure
He had not seen the statements referred to by the pose of making plans and estimates of th orks
Hon. and Learned Member ; but he would make it his required. He had not yet returned any estimate,
business to inquire into the matter. but he had sent home a rough draft, which he thought
Sir ROBERT PEEL could not help remarking justified the Government in asking 20,0001. for carrying
that the Hon Member for Kiikenny had a strong game preseat yeafr. The
barrac nexst
i item
m
prepossession against Lord Hill, because he had not f increase was on the works during the prese:rt year. Tue next item
prepossession against Lord Hill, because he had not of increase was an iof 8,857/ or kn t
central districts. In the northern district, for 18 years
resigned when Lord Grey entered the Administration,
and it appeared to him that the prejudice which he en- troops bad been lodged in temporary barracks. Two years
tertained against Lord Hill had communicated itself to ago be thought it his duty to go down and examine the
the case of Lord Cardigan, and swayed his mind to a barracks ; he found that the troops were very badly
certain extent. Now, in the case of Lord Cardigan, accommodated. In the first instance the barracks had
it would have been manifestly unjust to have dismissed been very comfortable, but at Bolton, Bury, and otter
him without a court-martial ; it would have been un- places, they wero now far otherwise. He thought it
wise to replace him on half-pay under the circumstan- was but justice to the troops to erect barracks in which
ces, and it was admitted on all hands that there was they would be comfortable. Again, an increase of
nct the remotest ground for justifying the appointment 10,0001. had become necessary for the erection of bar-
of a court-martial in his case—(Hear, hear)— racks at Brecon. They all knew the circumstances
in short none of these grounds could have been taken. which had occurred in South Wales last year. The
It was his opinion that the Commander-in Chief was a troops there had at first been stationed at public-
better authority on that point than the House of Corn- houses, which he considered highly objectionable. 'They
mono. He could not believe that any Court of Inquiry, were afterwards placed in buildings, fitted up for thst
extending as it probably would over many years, loves purpose ; and if it should be considered necessary to
tigating offences that might be given by look or man- keep troops in South Wales, they should erect
ner, would end in any satisfactory way. He thought a barracks for their accommodation at Brecon. There
wise discretion was exercised in permitting that case to was an increase df 10,000/. for the erection of
be decided by a man holding the high station which the fortified barracks at a station the name of which we
Commander-in-Chief of the British Army did, whose could not catch, and where at present the troops were
Public military services entitled him to the highest re- residing in old hulks. On the 6th vote there was an
spect, and whose private character was exempt from increase of 5,414/, On the 7th vote, items for military
suspicion. There was nothing which be (Sir R. Peel) service, there was a great increase. This was a most
would deprecate more than that the intentions of the important vote, and the increase arose in a great de.
Commander-in-Chief should be influenced by any ex. gree from the giving percussion arms to the troops, It
pression of opinion, on a matter of mere mgitary disci- was a subject which had engaged the attention of
pline. He was also bound to say that he could not the Board of Ordnance for many years. I t was well
conceive what motive the Secretary-at-War could have known that under the Old system of locks a great num-
in protecting Lord Cardigan. It WAS quite clear he ber of muskets miseed fire, It was well known that the
was not actuated by any political partiality. It was British solder always did good work with his musket,
evident also that some temporary popularity might have but he thought it was but due to him to put as good
been acquired by that Right Hon. Gentleman's adopt- arms into his hand as could be procured. The increase
in; a contrary course. Whilst he (Sir R. Peal) under this head was 130,000/, When he first became
thought that the rank of Lord Cardigan ought Master-General of the Ordnance his attention had been
not to be any source of protection to him ; yet he roust directed to the best means of effecting the change
say that it was inconsistent with justice that a noblemen from the flint to the percussion. He had watched the
being the commander of a regiment, and a man of high operation of the flint, and he had seen regularly that one-
rank, should be exposed to a punishment from which a third of the arms missed fire. He felt the necessity of re-
man of inferior rank would be exempt. He did trust sorting to some change, more especially when the other
that the same motives which influenced her Majesty's European powers were doing the same. He had had pat-
Government to act with a sense of justice in the first tern locks made, and submitted them to the inspection of
instance would induce them steadily to adhere to the a Committee appointed by Lord Hill, of which the
same course. Store-keeper of the Ordnance was a member. He had
Cul mel SAL WEY thought there was great incon- had patterns of locks for muskets, carbine?, and rifle:,
sistency in the statements made relative to the present and had had arms thus fitted up sent out to the regi-
condition of the regiment commanded by Lord Cardi. MentS in Canada, India, and Ireland, and he re nested
q
gan. The Right Hon. the Secretary at War bad Lord Hill to direct the commanders of those regiments
spoken of that corps as being in a high state of ineffi- to report thereon. Some sixty or seventy regiments
ciency, whilst on the other side of the House an Hon. had been supplied, and he would read extracts from
and Gallant General (Sir H. Hardinge) had stated some of the Reports. Colonel Cathcart, of the King's
that a cabal existed among the officers of that regiment. Dragoons, said that they were better calculated for
That was in his (Cul. Salwey's) opinion the most un- service titan any arms he had ever seen. The Right
cestunate expression that could have fallen from any Gals Hon. and Gallant Officer then proceeded to read
eer in that House. He never heard it stated several other returns, all of which highly approved of
lint te,e.
, -eland in that regiment. Though he the adoption of the percussion arms. With these
that any canal e. e h
sting acquainted with Captain returns before him he was sure the House would
had not the honour or ..
" black-bottle" Captain agree with him that the Government had
Reynolds—better known as
ge„i.'ssynan would be the nothing to do but
to go on manufacturing these arms,
Reynolds yet he believed that officer.
.because, if anything should occur which would render
last to form any cabal against his comman,4lng
He (Colonel &Away) was sorry to hear such a:: ex- it necessary to send out an army to any part of the
pression from the Hon. and Gallant General opposite. world, the superiority of the percussion locks would
become apparent. He recollected an instance of a re-
Sir H. HARDINGE said that what he had dis-
tinctly stated was, that the differences in that regiment view at Dublin, where the men had the common locks
to their guns, and in consequence of a shower of rain
partook of the nature of a cabal among a few of its
officers. He was justified in using that expression, coming on, not one of their guns would go off. Tnete
because it had been used at the Horse Guards with re- was an addition of 15,000/. for stores, and there was
also an addition of 10,000/. for the purchase of military
spect to the subject now before the House. He was
far from attributing anything like a cabal to the whole stores. In the Commisseriat Department there was
36,000/. less this year than last ; the reason of that
of the regiment, for with the exception of three or four
a as, that the Ordnance Department had been taken
of its officers, none had any misunderstanding with Lord
Cardigaa. With respect to that nobleman, he (Sir H. H.) by the Treasury. Altogether there would be more ex-
did not mean to justify his every action, but he must ray pended this year than last, by 156,915/. He trusted
that he (Lord Cardigan) had not merited the severe the statement he had made would he satisfactory to the
censure which had been passed on him by the press. House, and he would now put it in the hands of the
He was happy also to say that the officers of that regi- Chairman, for the adoption of the Committee.
ment under Lord Cardigan's command conducted Upon the vote for 119,631/., for defraying the sala-
themselves in general with propriety, and with a due ries of the Civil Establishment for the office of Ordi-
regard to discipline. trance at Woolwich, and on foreign stations being put,
An HoN. MEMBER said it was unwise of any mill-
Mr. HUME observed that as the House seemed
tary man to say one word in that House as to the mo- determined to keep up a large naval and military force,
tives that actuated the Commander-in-Chief in his it was absolutely necessary to have it efficient, and if
treatment of Lord Cardigan. Lord Hill had sent anything was more important than another it was that
down the inspector of cavalry to inquire into the merits the men forming that force should have the best pos-
of the case, and his Lordship acted on the report of the Bible arms. It was no economy to have bad ones. In
inspector. the vete now before the House there was no increase
from the last year, and he therefore had no objection
to it ; he objected, however, to the enormous amount of
stores kept constantly on hand.
The vote was then agreed to.
A vote of 315,861/. for defraying the expenses of the
Royal Artillery and Horse Artillery was agreed to.
A vote of 37,810/. was also agreed to to defray the
salaries of Barrack-Masters in the United Kingdom and
on foreign station:.
The next vote was 525,0211. for defraying the charge
of Ordnance works and repairs.
In answer to a question from Sir A. DALItYMPLE,
Sir 11. VIVIAN said that the Government did
not propose to erect any other barracks in South Wales
unless it was found to he absolutely necessary.
Mr. HODGES wished to ask the Right Hon. and
Gallant Officer whether he considered the barracks at
Hythe were necessary to be kept up ?
Sir H. VIVIAN observed that he was prepared to
go and throw away those- barracks, selling them for
little or 'nothing, when, perhaps, 'in a short time, he
should be forced to purchase them at a great expense.
Mr. HUME considered this a very heavy vote, and
he was sorry to see the Gallant Officer was adopting a
course that had been adopted a few years ago, when a
disturbance took place in Lancashire, namely, that of
erecting barracks where mettles took place. He
thought the Government would do well to consider
whether, instead of studding the country over with
barracks, they could not adopt some other means of
putting an end to the discontents that existed in the
country. If they would allow the people to manage
their own affairs, they would not be called upon to lay
out large sums in the erection of barracks.
• Sr H. VIVIAN denied that the Government hal
erected barracks wliel'e- tbe'emeures had taken /Am.
Mr. HUME hoped that the sums received for show-
ing the different parts of the 'rower would be applied to
adding to the collection there, and also to defray the
expense of the new building. He also desired that
these collections should be made admissible, partly at
least, to those who could not pay. Sixpence was a
small sum compared with the payments which were
formerly taken, but there were numbers of persons who
could not afford even sixpence, a-rd who were therefore
entirely excluded from these collections. He thought
that one day in the week might be set apart for the
benefit of such persons. He mentioned the following to
show the advent ige which even the revenue derived
from the reducing of the rate of admission. During
twelvea months, when the demand was 25., 10,300 pen-
aas visited the armoury, produ • clog a revenue of 1,030/.
When it was reduced to one shilling, there were 41,000,
producing a revenue of
80,000 were 2,0401. WI en the fee was 6d.,
admitted, producing a revenue of 2,0001.
In the year ending Feb. 1, 1841, 91,897 were admitted
on the
same
Aft terms, produciog a revenue of 2,297/.
After a few words from
Colonel Thomas, Mr. P.
Howard, Sir Hussey Vivian, and Colonel Anson, with
respect to the erection of barracks, the vote was
agreed to.

ARMY ESTIMATES.
The House then went into Committee of Supply,
Mr. BERNAL in the chair.
Mr. MACAULAY, in proposing the vote for the
yeomanry cavalry, said that the Hon. Member for
Kilkenny had on the last evening requested him (Mr.
Macaulay) to postpone the vote. The whole vote
amounted to only 8:2 2661. for defraying the expenses
of the yeomanry cavalry, and when the Hon. Member
(Mr. Hume) recollected that the conduct of the ca-
valry was perfectly irreproachable he (Mr. Macaulay)
hoped he would not press his opposition.
Mr. HUME had risen after twelve o'clock the other
night to prevent the vote being put, which he consi-
dered the most objectionable one in the Estimates. He
did not think such irregular corps ought to exist. They
never came in contact with their fel!ow citizens without en-
gendering unpleasant feelings, which were not occasioned
by the regular troops. He never recollected any com-
p' tints being made against the regulars, who always on
such occasions performed their unpleasant clut'es with
the utmost impartiality. There had been no instance
of complaint in Ireland against the regular troops,
whilst the employment of volunteer corps in that
country had given rise to the most bitter feelings.
Three regiments of regular troops could be maintained
for the sum now proposed for these volunteer corps,
and he was convinced that, with the present easy means
of communication, three regular regiments would be
found much more efficient than the whole of the yeo-
nialry corps. He should certainly divide against the
grant.

Mr. O'CONNELL, in reference to what had fallen
from the Hon. Secretary at War, before going into
Committee, in relation to Catholic soldiers in Indle,
whised-to remind him that preeiiely the same promise
had been made by his predecessor. He hoped he would
press the matter at the India House. The information
sought for could be easily acquired, and he would take
care he should be furnished with it.

Mr. P. HOWARD hoped the Right Hon. Gentle■
man would also direct his attention to the furnishing re-
ligious instruction to the Catholic soldiers from Lan-
cashire and the Highlands who were serving in India.
Strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the Coat.
mittee divided, when there appeared--
Ayes
Noes

Majority in favour of the grant 34
ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
Sir HUSSEY VIVIAN, who throughout was very
indistinctly heard, and Ir.equently turned away fr the
lOrdnance m '-
gallery, then rose to brtrg forAairc. the Esti-
mates. It would have afforded the greatest
had plan-
ea-
sure if, like the Hon. Secretary. at War, o
nounced a decreasein proposing the Army Estimates,
he could have it in his power to hat e announceett d
h a de-
cre Ise in the Ordnance Estimates. He regr,:d, ow-
ever, to say that he felt himself called on to propose a
large increase—an increase to the amount 0f186,903/.,
and ha would endeavour as briefly as possible t 3 ex-
plain under each vote the necessity that existed for the
increase. The first vote was for the Ordnance civil
establishments at the Tower, Woolwich, and the ern-.
stations. Under this heal there was an increase .of
2,757/. ; this was owing in a great measure to the in-
creased salaries of their servants, who, a; they grew older,
received an increase of salary, and also to the appoint-
ment of two additional storekeepers at Montreal and
Sierra Leone. On the second vote for the Royal
ncers: Sappers, and M•ners, there was an increase of 2,688/.
The Increase was ow:ng to an ap?lication from the Go-
vernor of Bermuda, for sappers and miners, to conduct
the works on that station. He had found that those
works could be carried on infinitely cheaper by the em-
ployment of sappers and miners, than by hiring
labourers, and therefore, at the suggestion of the Go-
vernment, he had applied for this assistance. On the
third vote there was a decrease of 1,212/.' arising from
the fact that a large quantity of clothing had heensup-
plied last year, and that therefore there was less re-
quired this year. No alteration bad taken place in the

ORDNANCE SURVEY.
On the motion theta
L iseuomt'tlalid
ou that, e Ordnance survey,
Inot exceeding 156,2.59/.,
be applied for the expeos
Sir A. DALRY M 1
II voting money
for the proposed survelsl,: E
the s
object to be carried out wap wi.se should see that the
: bin the
officers who were to be employel. powers of the
should not be thrown entirely n
u OHe thought that it
ment. The Honourable endl:er
cues M the mittary depart-
to allude to the great expense which would
understood
d attend this
survey.
Sir HUSSEY VIVIAN said he thou 1t his Hon.
g I
Friend was labouring under a mi,take on this subject.
any
The sum then proposed was not larger than that of
Previous year ; and the proposed survey on the seal
six inches to the mile would be carried on in the sameeof
manner as the old survey of one inch. He could assure
the Gallant Gentleman that the geological survey was
not carried on by the Ordnance officers—it was entirely
under the management of M. Delabeche—though he
was sometimes assisted by the Ordnance engineers.
The vote was then agreed to.

The next vote proposed was the sum of 328,0001.
for„defraying the expense of Ordnance stores.
Mr. HUME wished to ask the Gallant General
if he could tell him what amount of stores bad been
scat out to Syria.

Sir H. VIVIAN could not say off hand what the
amount was ; he could tell his Hon. Friend, howeve-,
that there were 15,000 inuskets sent.
The vote was agreed to, a 3 were

5,5791. for the purchasing of land at Kingston,
Canada.

116,529/. for defraying the expense of superaoua-
tions, half-pay, arid pensions of the Ordnance depart-
ment.

And 248,5951. for the Commissariat supplies to the
same department.

The House then resumed—the Report to be received
n Wednesday.

Tne Report of the Turnpike Act Cont;nunnee
Bill was brougbt up, and the Bill ordeterl to be en-
grossed.

Ti,e 'Turnpike Act Continuance (Ireland) Bill went
through Committee.p 00
It.LAWS.

Mr. P. MAULE moved that the House resolve
itself kto Committee on the Poor-law Amendment all.
Mr. 'l'. PARKER did not know what sympathy for
the poor would be shown in that House, but he would
certainly continue his opposition to it when it was pro-
posed to proceml with it. As the present was merely a
pro forma proceeding, he would not then detain the
House.

Mr. F. MAULE would only assure the Hon. Gen-
tleman that her Majesty's Ministers felt quite as much,
and probably more, sympathy for the poor than many
who made much noise upon the subject.
Captain PEC HELL wished to know whether he
had correctly understood the Noble Lord—were all
local acts to be left untouched, and were Gilbert Cor-
porations to be exempted from the operation of the Bill ?
Mr. F. MAULE said his motion was merely a pro
forma one. When the Bill was printed with the
amendments, Hon. Gentlemen would see them.
Colonel SIBTHORP said he did not think his
Hon. Friend (Mr. T. Parker) had been answered in
the most courteous manner by the Han. Under-Secre-
tary ; and, as for his boast, there was a very true, al-
though a very trite saying—it was, " The proof of the
pudding is in the eating of it."—(A laugh.) Now, he
thought the acts of the Ministry had never given any
proof of sympathy for the poor. They had shown an
ardelt love for their places, and, although they had
only come down to five years' continuance now, rati er
than give up their dearly-loved places, they would
come to two, or even one•—they would descend to any
trick in order to insare them. If no other Member
took the sense of the House upon the Bill on a future
occasion, he would do so himself.

Mr. HINDLEY earnestly prestel uron the Go-
vernment to adopt the suggestion of the Hon. Member
for Finsbury, and divide the Bill into two.
The House then went into Committee—Mr. BERNAL
in the Chair.

Caphin PEC HELL again inquired whether de
Gilbert Incorporations were exempted from the opera-
tion of the Bill.

Mr, F. MAULE—No.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE would warn the House
against the insidious provisions of the Bill. Local Acta
were net to he touched, but the Commissioners had
uc-
thing to do but join a parish having a local Act to another
which had not one, and then their board of guardians
immediately ruled the union. In that way they had
joined Kensington and Chelsea—the utmost confusion
had been the result, and they had been compelled, i❑
order to remedy the evil, to bring in a bill of divorce be-
tween the parishes—(A laugh)—for no other power
than Parliament could effect a separation, a union hav-
ing once been formed by the Poor-law Commissioners.
He did not see the Noble Lord the Secretary of State
in his pl tee who could give the required explanation,
and ther, fora he moved that the Chairman report pro•
gress arid ask leave to sit again.
Mr. FOX MAULE said the Han. .Gentleman bail
refused to concede what he had never known to he re-

fusel in that House, namely, tn go into Cummittee pro
forma, for the purpose of amending the all. He had
never heard such a step refused to any Hon. Member
much less to the Let(ler of the House. His Nabk
Friend had in the early part of the evening detailed tl.e
amendments he proposed to make, but whether the
Honourable Member heard him or not be realy (lid not
know—he was taking no step in the Bill, But was
merely asking to place before the House in more el ,ar
and intelligible terms the alterations he proposed to
make. _ _ .

M-. DUNCONIBE sa:d he bad been charged with

,aping an unusua! and uncourteous step in objecting to

the aTOratiotis about to be made, but he must say it
was much more,unusual and uncourteous, when he asked
the Hon. Gentleman with reference to certain amend-
ments which it was proposed to make, to be tAi " you
will see that when the 8.11 is printed."—(Tory cheers.)
If Le had been treated in that manner.bi any Secretary
of State even of the high departments, much less of the

lower—(A laugh),—he would any that in any other
place it was a somewhat impertinent answer.-4 Hear,
hear, and cries of " Order.") Tile Noble Lord had
been much more courteous ti the House than his sub-
altern, because he had condescended to explain when
asked ; but he considered the answer he had received
from the Hon. Under-Secretary both uncourtcous and

unusual.

Mr. FOX MAULE said his answer had certainly
bons given in an unusual and irregular manner from his
seat, as one friend would give to another on the same
side of the House.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted, how-
ever, the House would not consent to the unprecedented
motion of the Hon. Gentleman.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said it was a very frequent
course to propose amendment, in order that the Bill
might go into Committee in the state in whiles the Go-
vernment wished it to appear. That proposition had
been generally agreed to. Now, because he (Lord John
Russell) had done more than was usual—because he
had stated the nature of the amendments he intended
to propose, the Hon. Member asked for more, and
wished to have every item and iota stated.
Mr. D UNCO MBE hoped the Noble Lord would

excessive— although it might be said that there was
nothing in the offence itself which required that extreme
and irrevocable punishment, yet so far us the prevention of
crime, the grease object of the criminal law, was con-
cerned, if the opinion of the country was in favour of the
inflation of that punishment,it would tend to prevent t hat
crime ; for instance, not a great many years ago, on a
certain c'rcuit, a Judge of this country, after the ver-
dict of the; Jury, condemned fourteen persons to death
for the crime of sheep-stealing, and all those
fourteen persons were banged. The punishment
at the time was thought an extreme one, but the Judge
thought it his duty to inflict it, and the Jury thought it
their duty to find the persons guilty ; and with regard
to the crime of sheep stealing, it was effective for a
certain time in the prevention of that crime. But if
the opinion in that respect was changed, though the law
declared that certain crimes should be visited with
death, yet if there was such a repugnance on the part of
jurors, that although the indictments might be found
by the Grand Jury, although the evidence be-
fore the Petty Jury might be convincing to
the mind of any reasonable man, still, if the repug-
nance to inflict capital punishment might be so great
in the minds of the Jury that they would find a verdict
of not guilty, in spite of the evidence before both the
Grand Jury and the Petty Jury, then the Legislature
would, in that respect, not attain their object. Crime
would not be prevented, because a person who would be
likely to commit a crime would have a temptation to
commit it. He would not have the punishment of
death before his eyes ; because, whatever the declara-
tions of the statute law might be, those persons would
look to what the law was in operation—what it was by
the verdict of a Jury and the sentence of the Judge,
and likewise by the recommendation of the Judge to
tire Crown reseecting the sentence—those persons, see-
ing that one was se's:loco executed for such offences,
would not be deterred from the commission of them by
chat law. Omitting all the questions which were raised by
many persons in this country, and the opinions which
probably the Hon. and Learned Gentleman himself
entertained as to the lawfulness of executing the pu-
nishment of death in any case—looking to that which
he (Lord J. Russell) said was the object of society—to
prevent crime—it was a question to consider how far the
criminal law as at present constituted effected that ob-
j 'et. They hal made very great alterations in the
criminal law—they had very much reduced the num.
ber of offences for which persons were by law punishable
with death, and with respect to certain offences there
was on the statute book the infliction of that penalty
commanded, but which was not in practice. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman opposite had taken all these ques-
tions together, and had proposed them in one Bill. He
(Lord J. Russell) did not feel that they ought to look
to the abolition of the punishment of death altogether.
The Hon. and Learned Gentlemen opposite ought to
have proposed a different course to the House. He
(Lord J. Ressell) would propose a course considering
offences separately, with the exception of a certain
number ; in regard of which no doubt existed in the mind
of any person. The Legislature had abolished the punish-
msnt of death with regard to some verygreat offences--
with respect to forgery, &e. The Bill of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, in the first place, took cognizance
of crimes of that sort. With respect to embezzlement
by the servants of the B ink of England, and bills of
the South Sea Company, stamped duties, &c., there
was no doubt whatever that in such cases they ought not
to leave on the statute-book the announcement of the pu-
nishment of death. That announcement also ought, he
thought, to be removed in the case of persons return-
ing from transportation to St. Helena. He therefore
brought in his preseat Bill, which he conceived the Le-
gislature could have no hesitation in passing into a law.
There was another subject on which he (Lord John
Russell) had stated a difference of opinion list year, and
respecting which he went to the extent of saying, that
they ought not to grant the total abolition which the
lion. Gentleman (Mr. Kelly) desired. It was with
respect to the offence of destroying or burning ships in
tire Queen's dock-yards. He (Lord John Russell)
conceived, with respect to that offence, that if it was
committed with a view of destroy iag ships of the navy,
or of destroying the whole naval stores of the country
in the dock-yards 1: elonging to the Crown, it was an
offence of a treasonable nature—that it was an offence
which, although it might not be really committed, yet
yet when it was attempted with such intent to
cripple and destroy the naval forces of this cowry,
and prevent her Majesty from using the forces of the
Crown against aggressions made by foreign enemies,
was of so serious a nature, partaking so much of the
character of treason, that they ought not to take away
from it the severest punishment. At the same time, it
appeared to him that the Act was drawn up in such a
manner as to involve malicious—and, it might be,
and wilful intentions, but yet without destroying of
naval stores, with others which were not undertaken
wilt a treasonable purpose, or with a view to cripple
the naval resources of the ceuntry. He proposed,
therefore, an amendment of the Act in this respect,
and to endeavour to confine the punishment as
much as possible to the greater offence.--(Hear,
hear.) There was next an offence which cer-
tainly was one on which the greatest doubt and cliff
cultybad been entertained, and on which the Govern-
ment had come to a decision with very considerable
difficulty. He alluded to the offence of rape. With
regerd to that offence, he (Lard John Russell) felt no
doubt in saying, that when that offence was an aggra-
vated offence, that when it was accompanied by cireuin•
stances which showed it to be an offence of violence with
aggravation, it was an offence which ought to be
punished with the most extreme punishment which
coel I be inflicted. But when they considered this
offence as it was brought before the Courts
of justice in this country, where great doubts and diffi-
culties arose, when they considered that those charged
with this offence were generally charged upon the evi-
dence of one person, and, that not a person against
whose evidence, as in the case of robbery or attempt to
murder, no suspicion could r.rise ; but that they were
persons who were, to a certain degree, subject to the
doubt and suspicion that they were endeavouring to
clear their own character by bringing a serious charge
against another person—when they considered that these
doubts much affected the minds of Juries—that
questions of that sort that were brought before Juries
were sifted, of course, and that very often different
statements were made of circumstances stated in evi-
dence, and with regard to proofs of the life of both
parties, and of circumstances that had happened imme-
diately before—when all these circumstances were
weighted together, if they considered the repugnance
there was to give a verdict, which might end in taking
away the life ; and the general impression there was
that nothing but the most certain evidence ought
to induce Juries to bring in a verdict of guilty
on a capital charge—they might. well conceive
that verdicts of acquittal were often pronounced
upon persons who had committed the offence, but
still against whom there was not the certain evidence
which would induce Juries to bring in a verdict that
might end in the termination of the life of the
prisoner. These considerations had no doubt very
much affected the minds of Juries, and he (Lord J. Rus-
sell) could show by returns that they had been very
powerful in producing verdicts of acquittal. Now, in
the administration of our criminal laws, they must con-
sider that the Judges had the opportunity of observing in
th it circuits the impression they produced, first upon the
gentl men who formed the Grand Juries, next upon
the chess of persons who formed the petty Juries, next
upon the various classes of barristers, officers of the
Courts of Justice, and indifferent persons with whom
they caine in contact. Therefore the opinion of the
Judges in any case, not in one case only, but generally
in cases regarding the infliction of any punishment, was
entitled to the greatest weight. He (Lord J. Russell)
had been unwilling to state any decision of the Go-
vernment on this subject, because he had been anxious
to see if the views, first, of individual judges, and after
ea ee or my..., .1...44 is. La it
perienee. He would state what the result of that fur-
ther experiment was. When he had the honour of
being Secretary of State for the Home
Department, a case of rape occurred, in which
three persons had been concerned, and therefore one
which was generally considered as an aggravating case,
and one in which the punishment of death might have
been inflicted. The Judge before whom that case was
brought, informed him (Lord John Russell) that if he
could not make any objection as Secretary of State,
he should be prepared as the Judge to recommend
that life should be spared. Struck by that opi-
nion, and knowing the intelligence, ability, and
learning of the Judge, and not being averse
himself, whenever he possessed the ability, and
thought it safe, for the administration of the law,
to spare life—(Hear, hear)—he (Lord John Russell)
stated, that if such a recommendation came, he should at
once recommend the Crown to adopt it. The recom-
mendation was made and life was spared. Other cases
had since occurred, and it bad been found that the
Judges generally agreed in the opinion he had just men-
tioned, and that they thought, with regard to cases in
which conviction was obtained for rape, that the
capital sentence ought not to be executed. In stating
what had been the result, he stated that what, with-
out saying that they could deduce inferences from it,
they could entirely defend, was still of considerable
weight. The general result had been that when there
had been executions one year the proportion of convic-
tions was less the next year. There was certainly a feel.
ing against the execution of capital sentences, and if
these returns were to be relied on, which he would not
say, and they were to be taken altogether, it
would be found they entirely concurred, In the
year 1834 there were fifty-five persons acquitted, and
eight convicted of capital crimes. Four of the eight
were executed, and four transpbrted for life, the pro-
portion convicted being one in eight. In the next year,
1835, fifty-two were acquitted and only four convicted,
and in all these cases the sentence was commuted.
The neat year, Tan forty-si* wore acquitted and nine
convicted, that was to say one in six ; but in that
year one person was executed. In the. next year,
1837, sixty-seven were acquitted and six conyjcteo;,
the proportion of those convicted I?cipg, one
A ,
in twelve ; but all those convicted were tract

not misrepresent him, he had merely asked one question.
Mr. BERNAL said an observation had escaped
the lion. Member, which he was sure was not meant in
,the sense in which it was taken, and which he thought
the Hon. Member ought to expla'n.
Mr. DUNCOM BE said that he had qualified his
observation, by adding if it had been made in another

place.
Colonel WOOD thought there had bean a good
deal of warmth about nothing at all. He understood
the word" impe:tincnt" had escaped the Hon. Member,
and Vint required some explanation.
Mr. DUNCO MBE said after the explanation of the
Hon. Secretiry he, of course, withdrew the obser-
vaGin.
After a few words from Mr. JOHN JONES, the
Bid went through a Committee pro form, and wes or-
dered to be printed with the amendments.
COPYRIGHT OF DESIGNS.

Mr. ENIMERSON TENNENT, in moving the
Order of the Day for going into Committee on the

Copyright of Designs all, proposed that it be an in-
struction to the Committee to consider all the Acts
connected with the copyright of articles of manufac-
ture, for the purpose of combining them in one Bill.
Mr. SHIEL said be had suggested that when an
Act of Parliament was about to be brought in effecting
alterations in one branch of copyright, that it would be
much wiser, there being no less than five Acts on that
subject, to include them all in one general Act. There
were copyrights upon designs on metal, on glass, and
other articles, and he thought it would be much more
judicious to have the whole subject considered by the
Committee.
The House then went into Committee, proforma.
-Mt. --114.57ted u tbk, 1314 i
would come into operation after the data of registration
or that of publication.
Mr. E.TENNENT—After the date of registration.
After a short conversation between Mr. Hindley,
Mr. I-lume, and Mr. Shell, the Bill was ordered to be
committed on Wednesday, the 17th instant, and the
House resumed.
LEASE AND RELEASE BILL.

Mr. EWA Rr brought up the Report on the Lease
and Release Bill, which was ordered to be read a third
time.

CRIMINAL LAW-
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he rose to bring in a
Bill for the Amendment of the Criminal Law. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman whom he saw opposite
(Mr. F. Kelly) had introduced a Bill in the la,t Ses.
sion of Parliament en that important subject. It was
for the House to consider whether they could now go
further than the extent they bad hitherto gone in the
mitigation of capital punishment, and, if so, t 3 what ex-
tent. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman stated last year
that it was his opinion the capital punishment might be
abolished altogether, but that was not the measure
which he (Mr. F. Kelly) now proposed to the House,
dis-
tinctly. Heea
but one which would abolish capital punishment for all
offences, with the exception of treason and murder.
T uese were the principles on which the Hon. and
Learned G t(lLemerd an veryjperhoeceitedeeedgeu)was not persuaded
clearly and
that it was expedient to abolish capital punishment
altogether, because he thought it was at times neces-
sary. But, at the same time, Public opinion with re-
spect to this subject must be looked to, and they must
see whether the changes already made in the criminal
law operated well, and whether public opinion would go
along with them in maintaining the proposed changes in
the law ; because, in a country where the decision on
that question was by trial by Jury—where the persons
who should ultimately decide whether the life of a
human being should be taken away or na—
me persons selected from thp general body
of the country—it must depend very much
on the country whether or not capital punish-
ment should be abolished.—(Hear, hear.) Because
if it was the general opinion, however erroneous, that
capital punishment should be inflicted for certain of-
fences, although it might be said that punishment iy"

ported for life, aid there was no execution.
In the next year, 1838, thirty-two were acquitted, and
seven convicted, being a proportion of th3sc convicted
of 1 in d for the ye,.r immediate ly folio vine that ie
which all we.e transported for life. In 183 d, sixty
acre acquitted, and seventeen convicfci, the propor-
tion convicted being lin CI. In 1840, there were
thirty-eight acquitted, and eighteen convicted, tl.e pro
portion convicted being nearly lin 3. Tne resul.s.
therefore, of these returns were (at least it would seem
so), that when executions were carried into effect, ii,
the next year a less proportion were convicted,
and that since custom and justice had been that
such sentences should in all cases be commuted,
the proportion of convictions had been greater.
Now, he thought if such was the general re-
sult, and, without too much relying upon the re-
turns, if they saw that such was the general tendency
of these trials, he thought he might say it was more
important for the prevention of crime, that they should
have a law by which a great proportion were convicted,
than a law by which a small proportion were convicted.
—(Hear, hear.) The great object was, that a person
convicted of crime should be punished ; and whether
by the punishment of death, or by transportation for
life, if there were a certainty, or nearly a certainty, of
punishment, they were likely to prevent more crime
than if they made it a lottery, and said that one,
or a number, ten, twenty, or thirty should be executed,
and the re:t should go scot-free.—(Hear, hear.) The
disposition of the human mind and character was to
take the chance of acquittal, which was a considerable
chance, and run the risk of execution, rather than incur
the probability, the very strong probability, of banish-
ment or severe imprisonment as the result of the crime.
It seemed to him, therefore, with respect to the crime
of rape, that they ought now to take away the punish
went of death.—( Hear, hear.) At the same time it
was one of those crimes respecting which, if they re-
carded particular instances of it, if they regarded
the atrocity and violence with which it was committed—
looking at it as a conviction for a moral offence, there
was no offence for which he thought the House, or the
country generally, would be more ready to say ex-
treme punishment ought to be inflicted. But,
looking at a question of this kind, with re-
spect to the effect of the criminal law, they
must consider what the criminal law was
be 'and what it could be. They could not make
the criminal law—they did not pretend to make it
reach moral offences, according to the degree of moral
guilt, as a divine power affixed t) any moral crime
the moral penalty which ought to attach to it. That
was beyond their power, and if it were in their power,
there was not only this offence but others to which they
could not affix such penaltie,.. They could not affix
such penalties to many offences to which the indignation
of our moral feelings would say that they
ought to 133 affixed. They could not, for
instance, affix it in the case of slander. In

the case of slander, for instance, a young and inno-
ceat woman might have her whole reputation de-
stroyed, even her ire endangered—the peace of her
family destroyed—her innocence unjustly tainted—the
greatest possible injury, and from the most malicious
motives, might have been inflicted on her ; and yet
when they appe Jed to the law, it was merely a case of
slander, to which pecuniary damages only were affixed.
Were their moral feelings satisfied by such a verdict?
No. Was the law wrong ? No. But it was one of
those cases which was beyond the law and above the
law, the punishment of which must be left to the feelings
of mankind, to the conscience of the offender, and to the
retribution of et, maul life. Still he doubted whether there
we. e not certila cases of the offence of rape, which
were deserving of the punishment of death. On that
question he consulted Commissioners of the Criminal Law,
and persons engaged in the administration of the law, how
they would mark the distinction, when they would draw a
line between offences of rape to be punished with death,
and those not to be so punished, and he had never been
able to obtain a clear definition. It had been supposed
that in offences perpetrated by more thin one parson,
when no consent could be supposed, the punishment
of death ought to be inflicted. At the same time, when
he considered the wide chasm which separated the punish
meet of transportation from the punishment of death,
the wide gulf there was between the two, he must own
that he was not satisfied with the distinction that had been
made. He had stated the case as it appeared to him, be-
cause there was no subject on which he had had so much
doubt, and it was not until he had obtair.el the opinions
of the Judges, and seen the results of the convictions of the
juries, and he considered well all the circumstances which
he had stated, that he had conic to the decision teat the
prevention of the crime was more likely to be accox-
plishel by the infliction of the punishment next to death,
than by continuing the punishment cf death itself. At the
same time, he thought it was an offence that should be
visited with no light punishment, end he would propose, as
a substitute for the punishment cf death, the punishment
of transportation for life, or for not a less period than 16
years. He also proposed, instead of the punishment of
death, to inflict the same punishment on persons guilty of
the other offences mentioned in the same clime of the
Act. He believed he had stated the nature of the three
Bills which he proposed t ) bring in. He was not
prepared to make any altera ins rest ecting the
Act of 1837, the first of Victoria, with regard
to attempts at mutter or burglary attended with violence.
Ile did not mean t s.ty that there w e:e not several offences
from which it ni.g t not be right to take away the punish.
meat of death, but he did not intend to do so by the Bill
which he proposed bringing in, and ho would rather ergue
thce e questions on. the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's
Bill than now. He had stated to the House, when fn-
merly speaking on the Hon. and Learned Gent' emotes

13.11,t.h.at it would be expedient th it some general view
should be taken of the whole subject of our criminal law,
more especially of that °art of it relating to the punishment
of transportation and imprisonment, in the infliction of
which there was no method or uniformity ; but he had
found, on looking over the Acts, that they were so compli-
cated' and confused, that it would be imprudent in the
Government, without further information, to bring in B
on the subject. He proposed at sonic future period of the
Session to bring in Bills for that purpose, not, however,
with any intention of passing them dining the present Ses-
sion, because he thought it better that subjects Gf that kind
should be fully canvassed throughout the country irr order
to afford those capable of forming an opinion,
an opportunity of communicating witn the Govern-
ment or Members of Parliament on the subject--( Hear)__.
as the utmost deliberation ought to be used in efleeting al-
terations in the laws upon such a subject. Great progress
bad been made of late years in ameliorating the extreme
severity of our laws, and the great evil at present existing
was the uncertainty respecting the punishment to be in-
flicted. Ile was of opinion that they ought not to relin-
quish any one of their chief punishments. He thought
they ought to retain the punishment of death for certain
and gross offenc2c, and those only when there were no
mitigating eircumstanc.w. The next great class of pun-
ishment, transportation, he thought, ought also to be
retained. He had heard of nothing to COO, ince him why,
as fir as regarded England and Ireland, that punishment
ought not to be kept up. With regard to the last class of
punishments, imprisonment, an expel iment on the subject A as
in the course of operation, and they had before then the re-

suit of the experiment from several places. ird ought tt,
be had to another punishment which was not now junta .d
in common Courts of Law, a'though the punishment it.
self was actually constantly suff:Ted by criminals ; he
meant the punishment of hard labour its the dock yards of
the country, but to which the punishment of transportation
was frequently commuted by the Secretary of St ate. He
thought they ought to maintain that punishment, but they
ought not to lease it entirely to the Secretary of State to
say what criminals should be transpertel, and what crimi-
nals sent to.hard labour in the dock-yards.—( Hear.) He
thought the punishment ought to remain, but it should be
a punishment by Act of Parliament, and not a punishment
inflicted by the person holding the office of Secretary of
State, sometimes on the recommendation of the
Judge•, but often by the adv'ce of the Super-
intendent of the dock-yard. He would not enter
into further argument on the subject, as the ques-
tion was not touched by the Bill which he now pro-
posed to introduce. He should, therefore, move for
leave to bring in a Bill to do away with the punishment
of death in ce►tain cases.—(Cheers. )
Mr. KELLY would be doing_ great injustice to the
Nhast.:. Lord. and acting in a manner little coeseetost to
his own feelings and opinions, if he hesit tted to express
the great gratification which he felt at the statement of
the Noble Lord, and if he was compelled to admit that
that gratification was not altogether unmingled with dis-
appointment, he need scarcely say how much he re.
gretted being compelled to make that admission.
Sill those who thought as be did could not but entertain
great satisfaction at the views which had been taken by the
Government on that question. The Noble Lord in ad.
vetting to the Bill he had the honour of introducing into
that House suggested matter which he had listened to with
surprise. The Noble Lord had stated that by the Bi'l he
had introduced he went too far; that he had called upon
the Legislature to do more than could he safely attempted ;
but when the Noble Lord suggested to the House that he
disapproved of the Bill, and called on the House to enter-
tain doubts upon its propriety, because its author looked to
the entire abolition of the punishment of death, that ap-
peared to him to be an argument altogether unworthy of
the Noble Lord in aquestion of such importance. It was true
that he, in common with many others, did look forward to
the entire abolition of the punishment of death, as one of
the greatest benefits that could be conferred by the Le-
gislature on the community, and he had no doubt the
time would come when the punishment of death would he
looked forward to with a: great horror rs torture was at
the present moment; but while he thus admitted that he
looked forward to the abolition of the punishment of
death, he felt bound to say than any measure for its par-
tial abolition ought not to be looked upon with di;-
approbation. In introducing the Bill to that House,
which had been read a second time, he c illed
upon the House to consider it on its Iner'ts ; if
the measure was good, he trusted it would be
passed, but if the provisions of that Bill were bad, then
he was content that it should be condemned. Bat he felt
be might with confidence appeal to the Noble Lord himself
whether in any other department of legislation a measure
bad been discountenanced because those who supine-Led it
west further than the party who had brought in the mea.
sure; if such was to be the case, what, he would ask, would
have become of that great measure of legislation in which
the Noble Lord took so prominent a part ? In some of the
remarks of the Noble Lord he begged entirely to concur;
he agreed with hill when he said that no Act of Parliament,
no course of Legislation, no operation cf the law could be
of any effect unless the public voice went Wong with
and that observation applied parigularly to the Criminal
Law ; not only would it be imprudent but mischievous,
unless the Juries by whom the law was administered con-
curred in the expediency and wisdom of tile law. Those
Rhv woreiikeetiSto4lo.4 to the Cowls of Justice felt the