The Sun.
London, England, 1812-12-02 00:00:00

THE GERMAN LEGION.

Lord FOLKESTONE gave notice that he would
on Friday next submit a motion to the House, on
the subject of an order issued from the }Torse
Guards, on thel ith of August last, relative to the
Officers of the German Legion,
Mr. KENaicK gave notice that at ',an early pe
riod, he would move for leave to bring in a Bill
similar to that of last Session, with respect tb In-
closures.

Mr. WHARTON moved the re-appointment of
the usual Committees : the motion agreed to, and
the Committees nominated,

Mr. JACOB' gave notice that he would take an
early opportunity to move for leave to bring in a
Bill to repeal the 13th and 14th of Charles 11. re-
lative to.the obtainment of Parochial Settlements,
by a Rental of 101. per annum.

lit.Mrat A'ibttrA

Lord CLIVE preiented himself at.the Bar of the
house with the Report on the Address, and an
the notion that the same should be now rmeived,
•Mr. CREEVEY objected to the motion, On the
ground that sufficient time had not been allowed
for Gentlemen to make up their minds on the
many important points embraced in the Speech
from thesTbrona, and re-echoed by this Address.
In former times the Reports on A.thireSSCi were
not pressed on Parliament for five, six, or eight
d.iys after the Speech was delivered, and surely
if 'such was the practice heretofore, it was the
more necessary to allow them time now, when the
'matter before them was not only more important,
but infinitely more various. He also objected to
it on account of the omissions in the Speed',
which he conceived to be of more importance than
the subjects mentioned.. He alluded principally
.to what regarded the supplies; in which part •the
Prince Regent had been advised to say only that
lie relied on the House for support, to enable him
to carry on the war in the Peninsula, but not to
mention one syllable of the state of the revenue,
or of the pressure on our manufactures, though
surely there was eifough in both these,points to,
merit his attention, and the attention of Parlia-'
meut. He would not go through all the King's
Speedos, that had eves' been delivered during
the period of war, to stew that it Wes an
'--unprecedented ,omission, and that it was
Uitary, on asking for supplies, to notice the state
of the revenue, but' content himself with pniving
this fact from the speeches delivered in 1794, and
in 1804, which he called on the Clerk to read.
(The passages touching on this part of the sub-
ject were read accordingly.) Mr. Creevey re-
sumed; considering all these circumstances, did
Ministers mean to say they could not state the
condition of the'revenue on account of our re-
sources having failed—or. had, they withheld en-
tirely from the knowledge of the Prince Regent
the distress in which our manufacturers were
plunged ? It, would be better for the House to
inquire into these things than say at once they
would vote supplies. There was another circum-
stance which should dictate great caution to them
as to giving pledges to support the. present enor-
mous scale of expenditUre of the country.
the resolution on Finance, moved by the Right
lion. Gentleman (Mr. Viinsittart), and by another
Right Hon. Gentleman, not now among them
(Mr. Tierney) last Session, though they differed
in some points, yet the result of both was the
same, namely, that though the Sinking Fund
continued to perform its operation, yet that the
excessive extent of the annual loan was so great
as to countervail its effects, and the natural con-
sequence was the sinking of the national funds.
All parties agreed that this could not, under the
present system of loans be prevented. But the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor
of the Exchequer) had, it scented, a nostrum for
this,; which, if he understood it aright, was to
add to the hurthens and privations already en-
dured by a tax on capital. He Was not sure that
this was the Right Hon. Gentleman's plan, but
sure he was thaf,they could not go on to borroasthe
•
loan for the year in the usual way. Why; he
asked, was not this topic alluded to and_ explained
in the. Speech ; that would have been moredis-
erect than to ask him thus blindly to vote for xn
Address by which supplies were promised. :He
knew that the expenditure of last year was
101,000,0001. ; he knew that the National Debt
had increased, and would increase four or five
-millions yearly; he knew that this increase could
only be met by a paper currency, which was de-
preciated, and would be much further ;depre-
ciated ; .tie knew that by.this depreciation every
annuitant in this kingdom professing as we did,
good fa:fli and justice, had been robbed of one-
third of their incomes 'by the State, and not to
benefit the State, but to go in bonuses to the
Bank of England. This was the effect of making
Bank notes a legal tender; and the robbery must
go still further, if the expenditure of the year
was further extended, till it ended in the total
destruction of the stock-holders by some violent
convulsion tt? the national credit. It was to
avoid this catastrophe that he now refused to give
the pledge demanded of him. As for these Ad-
dresses, he considered them as mere Parliamen-
tary farce and parade; and it was impossible to
expect, when they were called on to vote them in
this hurried way; that there could be unanimity
on the question. Under these circumstances, he
should conclude by moving, that instead of the
word " now" the' report should be received on
" this day week."
-Mr. FREEMANTLE thought some notice ought
to be taken 'of our finances, and that the re-
sources ought to he compared with.the circum-
stances of the country. He could not see that
our situation, either externally or internally, had
been ataill improved since the close of the last
Session of Parliament. On the contrary, he
could discover nothing bat a failing off' in our
prospects. The allianCe of RusSia, he admitted,-
was a feature of importance in politics, but the
war with America was •to be set against it ; and
this done, our loss was greater than our gain.--
With all the consideration he could give the_ sub-
ject, he could discover no improvement in our si-
tuation: Much as he valued the glorious victory
of Salamanca, and the noble exertions made by
our heroes in the Peninsula in the course of the

campaign, he despaired of the ultimate success of
the Spanish 'came, as the Spaniards .themselves
did not make the exertions we had a right to ex-
pect from them. With regard to Russia, he felt
that its conduct was not only that which muSthe
the most gratifying to this country, but the most
honourable to themselves. The Russians"' bad
completely frustrated the designs' of BuOna-
parte, and preserved their independence. In this
point of view he thought our situation was ini-
prOved; but he was not:.satiSfied with what had
been said by the Noble Lord respecting Sweden.
He was dissatisfied with the'Government for not
having answered the American Declaration 'Of
War. He wished •to guard against pledging,
himself to the details of the matter contained-
in the Speech.. He sboUld take eVerY„oPpOrtn.
pity of expressing his sentiments; when'therwere
gone into.

Mr. ROBINSON regarded it as extraordinary_ that
it should ue contended that our situation had not
improirad since the, close of the last Session of

Tbd war in tb bd6
treated as if the campaign had commeneed tyitli
the battle of Balainanta. This was not ta.kiijg
right view of the subject; it ought to be retheln.7
hered that it commenced With the siege Of Ciudad
Rodrigo ; and this borne in mind, it would be
found, heyond;all doubt, that our prospects bad
exceedingly improved, and were infinitely better
than at the beginning of the campaign, When
the campaign -opened, theTtench were its pos'
session of the two frontier fortresses, owhicti it
was necessary they should possess befofe they -in-
vaded Portugal. These it was necessary to take;
to enable Lord Wellington td advance : they had
been taken, and be had advanced into Spain with-
out any apprehension for his retreat
.; and he had
been enabled to possess himself pf Salamanca;
which was a place of great importance, as it
commanded thelopen country of Castile. The bat"
tie of Salamanca bad not annihilated the army'
opposed to the victors : such a resilt from a bats
tle was that which very rarely occurred, and that
which was not to be expected. , It had, perhaps)
deprived it of half its strength, and forced, what
remained of the army ofMaimont to take up $
position behind. the Douro; Lord Wellington had
then advanced upon Madrid, arid the effect of this
movement, asahe had clearlfforeseen, had corn'
palled the enemy to raise the siege of Cadiz. The
fact of the French having been two years amt A
half before it proved to demonstration, that
these, Cadiz was considered the greatest iral
portance to the subjugation of Spain. Indeed, be
believed, instructions had been given by Buona-
parte to continue the siege, at almost all possible.
risks, anti certainly had r.o doubt thought it a
great importance ; more Occasions than one hal
occurred, when by raising it, he might have been
enabled to do something of consequence in ano
ther quarter. The effectathen, of Lord Welling-
ton's movement on Madrid had been to 'can-se the
siege of Cadiz to be raised, and to liberate the
whole of the Southern • provinces of Spairr. Ma-
dridhad since been given up, but heqnestioned if
Madrid, in a. military point ,of view, was as
portant as many other places in Spaiu----Lord
had failed before Burgos, but the consequena.,es of
that failure were not what the fears-of some
made them appear. The army which had follrisa-
ed Lord Welljngton, and Wbiah if had been said
would annoy and do he knew not what, to the -ar-
my•of the allies,- already began; he believed, tv
feel the inconveniences of keeping together its:
such force. This had caused Caffarelli to -retreat
to !Burgos ; and he was. not certain that
he would not retire to Victoria. This was d
proof that that army, of wbichso much bad ber22
said, did not feel itself strong enough to advance,
and push Lord 'Wellington to those extreinitlea
which had been apprehended, or to deprive him of
the advantages which his victories bad obtained-
He did not take upon himself to prophesy either
good or evil. The one_ be might not be_ itii?"
tified in doing. and under-1)6 circumstances woultt
he wish to do the other. - What he wished to .5.,1
was, that advantages had' been gained since the
commencement of .the campaign, of /I nattme
great and decisive, and the reverses which we hail
experienced Wart morelikely to be porarytluta
otherwise. With respect to the American war,
be would say that Government had not been re-:
miss in directing hostilities, though they hQ.ifeela
anxious not to close-the prospect of negotiating
an amicable- irrangement. Orders had beea
promptly given to bring in American vessels ;and
if War bad not been commenced with till that iacti-
vity and force which some might consider ckaita-
ble, it ought to be remembered, that occupied a 5
we were at present, it was impossible that an over-
whelming force could at once be directed to every
point.

Mr. P.O2E wished to -reply to what had' I,4lTeri
from an Honourable Gentleman opposite, .on
subject on which great misrepresentation hal
hone
abroad. It had been understood .that his
Right Honourable Friend, the Chancellor of 1].4
Exchequer, had it in contemplation to propose A
tax upon capital. This, he wished now to state,
to prevent further misconception, was not true-
Stiehl:had never been-his intention!; and be (Mr.:
It.) would say, that to derive benefrt from such
measure was impracticable and impossible. ..tV
Right Reverend Prelate had some years ago pub--"
lished a pamphlet in favokir of a tax upon 60447
He (Mr. R.) had, on that occasion, addre7pwd tb.at-
Right Reverend, to skew that it was impractica-
ble, and exerted himself at that time to- pro,ve,
what he still believed, that, putling policy. out .of
the question, such a measure could not be resorted
to.

Mr. S. Wown.rty, referring to what bad been
said in favour of attempting to ,negociate a peace,
gave it as his opinion, that whenever a peace was'
concluded, it nmst be the work of the Govermnent
of the country. If tbcy were driven to attempt'
to negociate b 7 a resolution from the I-lOnse of
Commons; or 'ay the clamours of the: feo'ple, the
honour and-independence .of -the country wonid
be endangered. tie, however, begged, while tic
said this, to 'Warn the Govern:l:lent against shut-
ting their. eyes to the distresses of the veople
for heavy inileed would be their responsibility if -
theyttleglected to avail themselves of any favtatra
bile opportunity that may occpr for prbffering
to France.

Lord 'tilt:TON thought the Governments of Ear:-
land and America were less disposed to,peace that.
might be irished:
.lie believed there was as much
irvitatiOn:ron the part of the Government on one
side, aa. on that on the other side of the Atlantic..
Whatever might 'be the feelings •,or the
.twO GO-.
ierntnents, he was confident the people of bOtli
countries were anxious-10 -be at peace, arid he
hoped the war would not be tnnecessiirily'prOlOng-
ed, by, the feelings of irritation t 9 which he Ead.al-
luded, in the Governments of &this- country -and
Ameiria a.. ‘.

Mr.. STEPITEV contended, that the charg&Of
ritation 'against the PovernMent of this country
was. unmerited. He thought knitters had beer/
wrqng in not replying to the Manifesto published
by America. He differid from those*WhO thought
such a step would tend to protract hostility: .In
his opinion it would ben step to conciliation, to'
refute, in.the face-of .the world, the elargeS pre-
ferx.ed. against .the countryThy-America. He re-
peated, that nothing of irritation was justly to be
imputed to England. He had employed his tongue
and his pen ou the subject

of the differs

kfreen the cot ntrl6Siarlii given it tridch o .lei
-attention; and he Might invoice thesearchera
hearts fo bear witness huts anxionsly he- had
sired to peace and- i(mity reestablished With
.An' gland and America. He then noticed the 'natl.:,
ber in which the concession' Made by Mr.Ertkine
I.4en received by the !Amerieatis, and stheig=
4lominious manner in which M. Jackson hitibeeri
sent away befOre an answer tin 'the communiea-
tion made to his Government etittld he received,
to enable them to judge 'Whether' Or riot his
conduct Was upheld or ilis-avtivved in England.—
These things ought to be retheniliered by those
who accused the English Government of acting
With a feeling of irritation towards Anierica. The
conduct of America, it Would be found, had
bees:that which was best calculated to Second the
• views of France, to make the treaty of Utrecht the
common law of Europe, to exile England, and td
tnake her navy' useless but to defend her own
Coasts. The Government of America had dropped
their -complaints • against the Orders in Council,
and resorted to other grievances when there ap-
'Peared a probability that those Orders would be
'abandoned. PeaCe, he contended, the recent con
`duct of the American Government made it int•—
possible to preserve, but at the expellee of the
Stift-ender of our maritime rights. He had dis-
aPproved of thr repeal of the Orders in Council,
'and must ever condemn that policy which dictated
:Such a measure. This had been caused by the
,exaggerated statements made of the distress of our
mercantile towns. ! It was then said, that the lan-
guage of all the orders received from America was,
'" Ship goods the moment the Orders in Council
are repealed." The consequence was, the Ame-
rican Government! had the justice to . condemn
those goods which were English property, and
restore to their owners those which were Ameri.-.
van. •It was in vain that he had contended that
-such would be the result of the Orders in Council,
es had since been e;perienced, all he could urge
was over-ruled, and 'they were abandoned. After
some-, further obSerations, the Learned Gentle-,
concluded, by deprecating the War between
-I.'algland And Americ,a, for the countenance it gave
to the ambitious views of a desperate Usurper;
for what was more to be deplored, than to see the
two co'uutries in the world which possessed the
rilost•of civil liberty, and which, tor- various rea-
sons, oughtto be united for ever iu.amity, ready
to play his game; by turning their arms against
each other?
Mr..WmacaroacE Was of opinion that nothing
, could prove mon: injurious and pernicious to the
cause they wished to serve, than- that line of con-
duct which.went to raise ail-Outcry for peace at a
time when it could not be obtained. He trusted
that all fair measures would be taken to.. repress
• Such an outcry, Which, from its nature. being
misunderstood in foreign parts, rikigbt be most -,1-
trinlental 'to our interests. That peace was de-
tirable, when it could be obtained on safe thud hn-
nourable terms-; no man could deny, and 'no man
touldinore highly prite its bleSsings thin he did.;
but'h-e did not think any instructions that r arlia-
Ment might give to conclude a peaco, would be
likely to accomplish so desirable an end. ,On the
ontrary„ he -thought. such- instructions--might
place it more at-a distance ;• and with this feeling,
under existing circumstances, Ile had' felt' satisfac-
tion -at seeing the Amendment of tihe preceding
night negatived.
Mr. Po& SONBY could not concur itt the amend-
ment. moved by his Hon: Friend (Mr. Creevey)
in agreeing to the Address, he contended, they
did not pledge themselves to take the sa-me view
of the subjects it embraced as was takeil of them-by
MiniSters. These things had, now become in Par-
liament almost matters of course, and 'lnch an ad-
dress as was proposed was received rather as a
complinient than as any thing else. It was like,
" 1 reMain, with great regard, your most obe-
dient humble servant," from one pers,an'to an-
other, for whom, he felt no regard, anil to Whom
he had.never rendered any service. If they were
• .to take upon themselves to debate the' Address to
• be presented in answer to the Spec*, paragraph
by paragraph,. the session would be far advanced
before.they could come to a conclusion. Though
they generally conctured in it, they were not
bounds to the details, and lie thought, from the
debate. of that night, it would he, seen that it
was better to let it go off gaiety, and discuss the
subjeatse'it embraced separately, than to take
them as they had thus been takevi. When the
. Chancellor of the Exchequer, for instance„ came
forward to ask •sullplies ,for carrying on the war
in the Peninsula, - then it would be for the House
to-inquire into the policy of granting a supply,
if any should .be granted. .
Lord c3ASTLEREAtii felt obliged to the, Right
lion. Gentlerrian for the hint he had given, as lie
thought it-by no means desirable that the subjects
touched upon in.the Address-should he taken in
the loose manner in which they had that night
been debated. That which he had principally
risen foCnow was to state, in anOver to 'what bad
fallen from-one who bad spoken in debate, that
the Maritime rights of England had in no instance
been surrendered to America by the partial repeal
of the Orders in Council ;—this had been parti-
cularly guarded against in the -commitnications
made to the American Government. ,
WHITZREAD- satirically noticed the silence,
held by; the :Learned Gentleman opposite (Mr.
Stephen) on that day, which gave the death-blow
to the Orders in Council. It had that night been
stated'hy' a Right Hon. Gentleman, whom he be-
lieved be Might call the Patriarch of the Treasury-
Bench (Mr. Rose) that much misconception had
gone abroad .on the. subject of a tax On
This he "now said was impracticable and impos-
sible. It was quite foolish,-and the Right Hon..
Gentleman wondered- how such' an'idea could have
gone abroad. and got into all- the papers, yet still
be (Mr. W. would.assert that the Chancellor of
the Exchequer bad., in his hearing, last year,
inentiOned a tax upon capital„as' that which might
be, in some cases,• .resorted to. He (Mr. W.)
had been, spoken of, as. if he had been the
first man to propose --a resolution in that House,
in favour:of-peace— But he 'remembered that
nineteen. .years ago, when he commenced his po-
Zitic-at life, that greatmaii Mr. Fox, -moved an dd.,
tore'' torus Majesty", -priiiing him to send an Am-
bassador to Park to-nelyie-iite 'a Peace. Ile- also'
~,4remembered, that one w • ,sion, When the tfon;
Cientletuan; late iNfetri. •fw YOrk, irliti noW

0161104. sliA a proi6iling wOnid be attended With
such perniciont coifi;equileels; had thought-Nr,_
Pitt riot sufficiently akvake 1i an opportunity whith
offered for Making peace, had himself endeAvorired
to induce the House to come to a resolution'simi
lar -to that which he now characterised as likely to
be so pernicibus. He then proceeded .to notice
the transactiOns which had recently . distinguished
the Atherican war. He contended a favOuriible'op
portunity now offered for making, or Attempting
to make, a peace. He was sorry nothing on this
subject was contained in the Speech ; and he
wished to make a peace before the necessity there
existed for one was exposed bare and naked to
the world. He agreed generally in what had been
stated by Mr. Robinson respecting ,the compa:
rative situation of things in the Peninsula, but he,
complained of the conduct of the /Spaniards.—
Where were their efforts ! If we were fighting '
the cause of Spain in Spain, it would be sup-
posed that '2O Spaniards would fall to two of their
10,000 to your 1000. What was the c;f:se
when the returns were made out ?—English so
many, Portuguese so many, Spaniards—two !7---
He believed Lord Wellington able to beat all the
French Generals; but without the cordial co-ope-
ration of the Spaniards, he could not drive the
French out of the Peninsula. - The French Em-
peror, if able to take the position on the river be
wag hastening to, and if he could provision his
army, might be enabled to advance against St.
'Petershrirgh with greater ease than he could in
summer. A pause would probably precede his at-
tempting this, and in that interval he would wish
an Ambassador to.besent to him with 'proposals
to which we meant to adhere, and this done, the
result of the mission would soon be known: This,
he thought, ought to be done, as piing on as we
had gone on for the last few years, our situation
became worse and 'worse ; and always rejecting
the terms offered at the time, worse were after-
wards tendered • and these again refused, though
we would gladly accept of terms a little better,
though much inferior to those previously rejected,
still kept us as far as ever from the wished-for pa-
cification. In the end, unless some great effort
were made .to obtain a peace, they might be
forced by the people to accept of any terms the
enemy would grant.
Mr. WiLnEnFoacE explained,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
with regard to the war in Spain, he perfectly
agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman near him.
in thinking that Ministers are very much to blame
if they have not made use of every effort in their
power. In order to shew that they had made
great efforts, he would state one, or two facts.—
During the year 1809, the amount of money paid
by the Treasury was 2,800,0001.: -whereas, at
the close of the year ending in November last,
the amount of the expenditure was no less than
eleven millions and a half. He was aware that
Ministers were open to the charge of prodigality.
But allowance shoUld be made, when it is recolr
lected that they were obliged to make every effort
in their power. It bad been said by an Hon.
Gentleman, that in Speeches from' the Throne, it
was alo.vays usual to make some 'reference to the
state of the revenues of the nation ; yet this was
certainly not correct; for in the speeches at'the
opening of the Parliament in 1807 and 1809, no
allusion at all wa3 made to the sabiect., Even in
the Speech for the year 1806, he believed the sub-
ject was not mentioned. With regard. to the
threat which had been imputed to him, for a tax
on capital, before the end of the last Session,
he could explain thewhole affair. In speaking
with some Gentlemen on the subject, of the
resources which had been resorted to by other
'countries, he had stated, that in Poland, and
several other nations, the ni,.rastire of a tax on
Capital had been adopted; and that he conceiv-
ed that the adoption of such a tax was practica-
ble in this kingdom. When he said this, it was
not under any impression that it . should ever
be necessary to resort to that expedient. Last
night, he said, we were told that our,commerce
had been. swept from the seas, and to-night we
Were told that we had' been defeatedat sea. Ile
did not conceive that it was at all to be wondered
at, if a larger force Shoidd- beat one Much infe-
rior. With regard to the assertion that our com-
merce had been swept from the sea ; he would
just state a circumstance, to show that this was a
mistake. Last
.year the amount of the exports
frOm the port of London was eight millions, this
year it was 13 millions. Now, how could it, hap-
pen that our commerce should actually increase,
if it were, as the Right Hon. Gentleman had said,
swept from the sea ? One other circumstance he
could not forbear to state, viz. that in the year
ending in October last, 'in a revenue of 60 mil-
lions, there was only a deficit of 90;000/.'

Mr. W. SMITH was averse to such discussions
on the subject of peace as had of late taken
• place. They must necessarily lead to disclosures
which tend to defeat the very end which is, proms
fessed to he wished •for, by making, the eneuiy
the more inclined to be averse to pacific measures,
iu proportion as they find us incline for negocia-
tions. Ale, however, conceited that the motion
of the Hon. Gentleman on this occasion, stood on
the same grounds with that of Mr. Fox in 1793.
He had been very much grieved at the exposures
which took place during the debates.for'the repeal
of the Orders in Council, for he could not but
think. that to those exposures might he attribut,.
cd, in a great measure, the cause of the pre-
sent American war. He, however, laid the blame
of this exposure at a different door front that which
an Hon. Gentleman opposite had done. This ek-
. postire sheaved to America, that a great party in
this country thought. that we should yield, front
an inability to continue the struggle any longer.
This was certainly not the way to obtain pea Ce.
As to Spain, We must- know that .Buonaparte
knoWs :the actual -situation of affairs in Spain
quite .as well, and perhaps better, than we
do 3 and of course can regulate his proceed-,
ings in
.that quarter. He ,thought A tax oil
capital a measure so absurd an impracticable, that
it coidd never go down in this country. What
the Right Hon. Gentleman had said on this sub-
ject,
did certainly give rise to that report which
he had a few minutes ago so positively contradict-
cd. And the reason why., this obtained any
credit was, that -people were -in general disposed
to rate too low the resources of our country.
Mr. CANNING. wished to set himself right to the

he that hiS
sentiments on
•
some .points hi& been MiSunde,rsfocid, It had
been suppoS`t.d, thikt H his only objection. to the
Ainerican wai: was ein account of the !banner- in
which war bdifi ileelared, and to the Manner
of issuing. letters di.' inswques4c. and on thi4, Sup-:
position be had beta answered by the Noble Lord;
He wished now tki state, that his ObjectiOnto the
American war waS., the Want of energy in carry-
lug it on.. No vigorous efforts have 'been. Made
by sea or land. 'Whereas, if proper exertions had
been
.macW by our GoVertirrient, the nei'al force of
America should have been prevented from having
alit' opportunity of doing lig mischief. It should
have bezel, as it were, hermetically sealed. He
stated this to spew that his objectiOn to this war
had not been answered by the Noble Lord. With
w
regard to our commerce being sept from the
seaS,_ Le meant, considering the comparative
forces of this kingdom and America, the latter
had made an infinitely greater number of captures
than bad been taken by our ships. The answer
made to. this by hiS Right 1-ion. Friend (Mr.
Vansittitrt) was an account of exports from Lon-
don. But it was to be recollected that the greater
part of the, goods exported, and whose amount had
been stated; were sent in directions where they ran
no risk of falling in with American ships. His
remarks on the subject Of the declaration of war
had also been thisjanderAtood. Government had
certainly been guilty of an act of injustice to the
country brnegleeting to State openly a denial of
those charges Urged by America. The answer to
this was, that an answer to those charges .would
have contained Matter which would have tended
to irritate the American Government. " GoOd
God !" said the Right lion., Gentleman, " are we
come to such a state.olhumilintion as not to dare
to refute charges made against us, for fear of ir-
ritating the Power that urges these charges ?"
(Hear, Oar !). He thought it very probable, that
had these .charges.heen openly and immediately
answered, it ~iwoiild have. greatly acCelerated an
amicable 'adjustment of the pending differences 3
for any peace made without a refutation of these
charges would have been an act of flagrant injns-
tice to this country. With regard to the question
of peace, he disclaimed the idea that no peace
could be made with . the present Ruler of
France. Neither did he think that there was any
Member in that House, who had ever uttered
such sentiments. Yet, in' the present Govern-
ment of France, there existed a determined reso-
lution to pull down this country from the high
station in which it now stands, and which they
conceive to be an absolute usurpation. As in ne-
,gociations for peace we have to contend against
this fixed principle., of course, it becomes us to
use the greatest caution in all such negociationS.
On this -account it is dangerous to stir up any such
sentiments, a:; thatit is easy to make a peace with
France. One of those who argued on the subject
of the repeal Of the Orders in Council, contended,
that the repeal of these Orders would not produce
the end designed. The 'question on the . subject
of these' Orders was `to consider whether they
really were, as they were intended to be, a mea-
sure of Warlike retribution', and whether they I:n*ol-
&teed efftets: po the enemy which might ',be a re-
taliation •for the effects of the hostile decree' of
France. He concluded by asking Lord Castle-
reagh, for the sake of information, what was the
present state of affairs between this country and
America. " Whether are we at war, or at nego-s
dation, or half at • war and half at negociation ?
And whether the correspondence which has led
to this anomalous. state is to be produced, and
when ?"

Lord CASTLEREAGH apologized for again trou-
bling the nouce.' The explanation given last
night was, he thought, sufficient to inform the
Right
.Hon, Gentleman that the, state in which
this country stands with AMerica, is one of unqua-
lified war. He did not feel himself authorised to
say.that the result of any negociation which at
present was going on, would be an amicable ar-
rangement between the two countries. Govern-
lnent-had reason-to expect an answer to their dis-
patches some time ago, for these dispatches had
been sent some time before the departure of Sir
John,Borlase Warren. He did not mean at that
time to enter into a review of those circumstances
which had indliced Government to change their
measures, by repealing the Orders in Council.—
The rights of this .colintrynEver had been seceded,
and this the Right Honourable Gentleman would
find when the documents were produced. As to
the time when it could be in hiS power to lay
the information before the House, he had to say,
that it should be done as soon as an answer was
received (if unfavoUrable) from the American Go-
vernment.

Mr. CANNING and Mr. STEPHEN mutually ex-
plained.
Mr. WHITBREAD asked how. long the Noble
Lord would wait for an answer. ?

Lord CAsT-LEREAGII said it depended on so many
accidental circuMstances, that he could not exact-
ly. say.

The Question being put; the Report was order-
ed to be brought up and read, when •
Mr.PONSONBY rose. He thought that the ex-
isting Government of one country could forin no.
obstacle to that of any other country treating for
Peace with it. He therefore thought that there •
Was no reason.why, if a fair opportunity offered,
this country. should not treat for, peace With the
present Emperor of France; considering him ah-
stractedly as the head of the FrenCh Government,
without regard to his character otherwise. If the
Hon. Gentleman who wished for • peace, could
prove that his Majesty's ;Ministers were deter=
mined nut to make peace with Brion4parte; he
(Mr. Ponsonby) Would to=morrow vote with. him
fot an address to make Ministers try.whether an
honourable peace Could not now 14 -made. The
constitutional mode of acting in.sUch,a case would
be, not to address the Prince Regent to enter into
a ilegoeiation, but to pray him to remove his Mi-
nisters: By appealing to the Crown for peace;
we told our enemies,,, that we were compelled to
make .peace, because unable to continue the way
any longer... He; however, thought that the pre-
sent season was not by any- means one in which
the state of affairs rendered it politic or necessary
for Us to have recourse to any such. expedient.
Mr. WHITIIREAW rose ,to explain: • -The 'Right
Hon. Gentleman opposit“Mf. Canning) express-
ricaci”c. 11 •11 Iv% twth arwni,f<7 111.. n

• , .
bread) had heard. the dibctrine prOrnnlgated,that
no treaty could be eritQied into w itlt the French
EmPetOr.i. He could infOrth him, that he had fre-
4uently,beard it atrion'g Men; wotneri, aitd chil-
dren. When Bponaparte Was raises! -to the Situ=.
ation of Pir Consul; the Govertiruent of this
country refuSed to treat with hini; he belieVed,
upon_ do other'gi.diind than the character of the
man.. It was a doctrineineulcated in •Isoo by the
Government itself: jig remembered ',having a
publication pot iiitO hand, liv the Cliurchwar.:
deo of a parish in BedfoiNiiire; virhi,.!h was direct.•;•
ed to be readfroin that
,publicaH.tion the g'anie principle was laid down; that no
treaty could be safely commenced Or con-chided
ywith such a uimi as was then at the head of the
French Government. With repect Co sthe-Subject
of peace., he pledgCd hint lf that lie would again
bring it forward soon after the recess.•

Mr: CANNING begged leave to say a few Words
in explanation. When the Hon; GentleMan,(Mr.
Whitbread) stated his opinion that such a prin
ciple was entertained, lie (Ilr. Canning), na •
turally supposed that it was imputed to per-7
sons in power, whoSe ()pintails on such a subject
may. .tend, considerably either to the public injury
or the public interest. Now, however; • from
the Hon. Gentleman's -explanation, it turned
out. that such a strong aversion to treat with Bo-
naparte was. only entertained in some private cir-
cles in which the Hon. Gentleinan mixed, It was
only entertained by some men aad women; and by
a yet more tender part of society, by the children.
(A laugh.) He could not but rejoice that the
youthful generation were growing up in
,such
principles, and if there was any error in the excess
of their zeal, it could not fail to be corrected 'when
they came , into that House, and saw that no such
principle was there allowed, and. that their vir-
tuons dispositions were not to be carrie'dso far.—
The Hon. Gentleman referred to Lord Grenville's
letter, but nothing could be more different tlian
the situation of France now andin 1800: -At that
time the people of France were subjected to an
usurpation that was -yet green, and to treat with
.its Government then might have given to it a
degree of stability-Which it would not otherWiSe
acquire. The case was quite different now, for
the Government, such as it was, had at least some
appearance of duration. He rose' merely to pro-
test against that basis of alarm which the Y4OO.
.Gentleman had taken. But there was one paint
to which be must allude,, and that was the part he
himself had taken when the question of the Or-
ders in Council was discussed. When he saw the
Opposition, as it was commonly called, and also
the Government, disposed to the removal of them,
he,. an humble individual, bad' nothing to do but
simply to protest against the principle upon which
that concession was Made to, America.
Mr. BATHURST said, he did not know any thing
of the publication to which the Hon. Gentleman
alluded. If such a publication.was circulated, he
was confident it was done without the knowle,te
or consent of GOVernment. The Hon. Gentl6,
man, to prove any thing, should. have proved that
such doctrine-was held oat by the Government. It
was indeed true, that the nature and con:luct of
the French Government was such as to render
caution necessary in any treaty that thiS country
may feel disposed to enter into with it.
Mr.Witia-BREAD said, the publication was hand-
ed down to hiar7hy the Churchwarden; and the
matter of it was such as to prevent the Minister
of the parish from reading it from the pulpit, as
was directed. It was. sent through the Post Office,
free of expense.

. .
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wished 10
know the name of the publication.
Mr. WHITBREAD answered, that he should send
him the publication itself before Many hours
should elapse.
Mr. CANING wished to know at what time the
subject of the East India Charter would be brought
under the consideration of the House

Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that it' would be in a
shape to be brought forward some time after the
•recess.

The Report of the Address *as then agreed to,
and ordered to be presented by the whole
At nine o'clock the House adjourned.

Fnoil VIE LONDON GAZETTE, Nov. C:s.

- DIVIDENDS—At Guildhall, London.
Dec. 19. W. Coles, Mincing-lane, broker, at eleven. •
Dec. 19. J. Batson, nyder-street, St. James's, tailor, at 12.
Dec. 22. W. P. Meeker, Basinghail-Street, merchant, at ten.;
Dec. 19. J. Smith, Blue Anchor-lane, Bermondsey, paper-;
maker, at eleven.
Dee. 19. F. Henderson, Lothbury, merchant, at twelve. •
Dec. 19. E. B. White, Chaml.er-Street, Goodman's-fields,
WhitechapeL.cilrpenter, at eleven.
Dec. 19. T. Hale, Worcester, glover, at twelye.
Dec. 19. W. Visick, Medhurst, Sussex, draper, at eleven.
Dec. 19. C. Fairbone, New-street, Fetter-lane, optician, at 10.
Dec. 19. T. Thompson, sen, Waltham HOly Cross, Essex,
shopkeeper, at eleven. ' •
Dec. 19. It. James, New London-street, merchant, at eleven.
Dec. 22. J. Hayward and G. Turney, Louden-street, mer-
, chants, at eleven.
Dec. 19. J. Worhall and J. Thurston, Catherine-street,
Strand, upholsterers, at ten.
Dec. 19. H. G. Hilbert, New London-street, latrehant, at 11,
Dec. Is. E. Lnrd, Ronghlee, within the Forest of Itossen-
dale, Lancaster, woollen-manufacturer, at four, at the Bull
• Inn, Burnley.
Dec. 22. S. Holland and T. Smith Williams, Liverpool, mer-
- chants, at one, at tt:e Gl,lbe Tavern. John-street, Liverpool.
Dec. 22. It. Stelling, Norton., York; wool-dealer, at eleven,
at the Talbot Inn, New Mutton.
Dec. 22. J. Dear. Hommington, Wilts, carpenter, at tea, at
the Spread Eagle Inn, New Sithith.
' CERTIFICATES—Dec. 19. • • .
W. Jones, sen. Bristol, brush-manufacturer.
•W. Morgan, Liverpool, pipe-maker
T. Follett and J. Neale, Liverpool, merchants.
B. Ray wood, Barnsley, York, linen-draper.
J. Liverpool, merchant. ,
W. Hankins, Brewer-street, Golden-square, undertaker. .
T. Gooch, Exeter, grocer.
'F. Harriett, Bishopsgate-street, china.man.
J. Forrester, Savage-gardens, wine-merchant.
Simpstin, Lloyd's Collcc-house, insurance-broker,. •.•
J. BrOwn, sen.. and G. Brown, Croydon, Surrey, cheese-

mongers. ,
A. Stewart and J. M. Minham, St. Mary Abbut4Kensinwtun
-dealers.
0.-.EvanA, Upper East Smithfield,, glass. inerch474.
J. Gamble, St. Neuts, Huntingdon, paper-malier.. -..