The Sun.
London, England, 1841-09-28 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 28, 1841

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appears to be the deficiency of the revenue of the year.
Without entering at length more into details, which had
been so recently submitted to the House, he would pro-
ceed to state the mode by which he meant to supply that
deficiency for which they were now called on to pro-
vide. The House .was undoubtedly aware of the pro-
posal, which but a few days since he made known through
the ordinary channels, for funding a portion of the
unfunded debt of the country. The object he had
in view was apparent from what he said, namely, that of
making a reduction of the unfunded debt to the amount
of two millions and a half. He did that because he was
sensible that of all measures which would place the
finances of the country on an improved footing, that
of relieving themselves from some portion of the un-
funded debt was an indispensable preliminary. He
knew he might be told the amount of the unfunded
debt had not been such as would justify a limita-
tion as to the extent that would be required ;
but he would still adhere to the principle which he had
uniformly maintained in that House, that it was not safe
for the country to continue a larger amount of un-
funded debt than under the circumstances of the
country could lightly and easily be borne, and he would
beg the House to observe, that the pressure of the un-
funded debt upon the country did not depend upon the
amount of millions, of which it consisted, but that
the same amount might at different times be, in that
respect, very disproportionate ; and, that therefore,
though now at 20 millions, having formerly been at 30
millions, there might be circumstances now which
called more loudly for a deduction than when
the nominal amount was so much larger. As
long as Exchequer Bills are the only safe
security, which gave daily interest as long as the
premium upon these bills was kept tolerably steady, so
long, he admitted, there was reason to believe that
the burden of the unfunded debt was not greater
than the country was able to bear. But when
a period had arrived in which, so far from being the only
safe security giving daily interest, they saw other secu-
rities, esteemed much by the public, coining into compe-
tition with them ; when they knew that there were
certain banks of acknowledged credit which gave a
larger daily interest than that given on Exchequer Bills—
when they knew that a spirit of embarking, in which
might be considered a comparatively safe speculation
existed, in which larger profits might be made—
and when, above all, they considered that by the
change which had been effected in the Usury Laws, the
money which before lay in the hands of individuals, or
was employed at certain periods only in the purchase of
Exchequer Bills. was now employed in the more profit-
able business of discounts ; it must, he thought,
be evident to every one who considered the
subject, that the reduced amount of Exchequer Bills at
the present moment was in consequence of the altered
position of monetary affairs to which he had alluded.
And for these reasons, considering that it was
difficult, without material loss, to add to the num-
ber of Exchequer Bills already in the market,
his first object was to effect a reduction of the unfunded
debt to the amount of 2,500,000/. He was happy to say
that as far as the object went he had at present been com-
pletely successful, that he would be en ibled, by the sub-
scription which had been made, to afford that degree of
relief to the country. He had indeed another object in view
namely, to explain to the public the amount which w,ltid
be required to be borrowed for the public servxe. He
did not wish that every man should subscril-,, his capital
to the public without knowing the denr.ed which should
be made upon it, and he hoped to be e`dabled to raise at once
the 2,500,000/. in money, which was necessary
to equalise the expenditure and revenues of the
country. The total amimint which he had raised was
3,540,000/. thus relieving the market of the sum of
2,500,0001: from which he intended to relieve it,
and leaving it to Parliament to make up the deficiency.
He might be told that he had offered to the public terms
which were either unfavourable to the Government,
or which were unfair to the public.—(Hear.) He did
not, however, expect that this would be dwelt upon
by those who had attended at all to the transactions.
When the sum taken by the public was considered, it
would be seen at once that they had no reason what-
ever to be dissatisfied. On the other hand, he
thought it would clearly appear that the terms were such
as the Government were authorised to offer. Into the
details of those sums he would not at the present mo-
ment enter. Unless any Hon. Gentleman opposite should
wish to have the whole detail of the calculations,
he would merely state, that, comparing the terms of-
fered with those of antecedent periods, they were not
higher in proportion to the rate of interest than those
offered in the year 1838 by the late Chancellor of the
Exchequer: He should refrain from discussing, there-
fore, any further details of the basis upon whic'i the
calculation had been made, which, however, he stould
be perfectly disposed to explain, if any Hon. C;,entleman I
wished him to do so.

Mr. F. BARING inquired the am :Ant of bonus ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
he calculated the bonus at about 18s. 10d. per
cent. Tho bonus the case of Lord Mont-
eagle was 16s. 41 The funds at the time when
Lord Monteagle made the bargain, were about 91, when
he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) made it they
were about 89.—(Hear.) The result of the arrangement
then was this, having cleared the market of 2,500,0001.,
he was called upon to show to the House the manner in
which he thought it expedient to raise the remaining sum.
Part of the remaining sum would be paid by the money
obtained ilom those who contributed this fund,
and':nerefore what the amount would be
it -was impossible for him at the moment to state.
—(Hear, hear.) He could not,. ur...,11 the transaction
were concluded, which woifid r..ot be until the
mpaoynme)e'nwt.hichohf ad ioteheen available. This he would state
woulidnsbtaelnitehnet' atamousnttoe?
th distinctly
in n o
et (a)a the
supposing Hoir st
tth e
parties who had sub-
scibed to pay one-half in Exchequer bills, could it exceed
1,7Q0,0001. on the whole amount.

Mr. BARING--Half the amount.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged
pardon, he meant half the amount. Of course under the
circumstances of the country he need not say, after all
that had lately passed in that House, that it would be
impracticable to attempt upon the present occasion to pro-
vide for the deficiency which existed by any arrangement
which would leave taxation upon its present footing,
and therefore he should recommend to the House to
adopt that temporary provision which he believed every
man who had spoken upon the subject in the Honse
had thonght necessary, and which, however, it
was, in his opinion, and in the opinion of them all,
to be deprecated as a permanent mode of meeting the
deficiency in the revenue, was one which, under the pre-
sent circumstances, he thought that no reasonable man
could see the least ground for objecting to.—(Hear.)
He was sure that the House would see that the attempt
under the present circumstances, so soon after the ac-
cession of the present Government to office, with the ge-
neral disposition that had been manifested not
to embark in any lengthened discussion upon topics of
that nature—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition benches)
—he was sure it would be found impossible to bring
forward a general measure of taxation. It was
impossible to obtain even those accurate details
which might enable any one to say to what extent
the necessity for additional taxation might be dis••
pensed with. He should certainly feel himself
still more unworthy of the situation in which he was
placed, if he were presumptuous enough at the moment
to lay before the House a system of taxation to meet
the existing deficiency in the revenue. He should there-
fore simply state, that by the resolution he had then
upon the table of the House, he proposed that they
should give power to the Government of raising, either
by the sale of Exchequer Bills or by the sale
of a certain portion of stock, that sum which might
be necessary to make the amount received in money
from the subscribers for Exchequer Bills equal to the
2,400,0001., and add what was required for the public
service. He had left in the resolution an option
of applying either Exchequer Bills or the sale of
stock to that purpose. He had done so, because,
anxious ashe was to realise his original intention of re-
lieving the unfunded debt to the amount of two millions
and a half, he could scarcely be assured of the effect if
he were at once to attempt to raise the sum in the shape
of Exchequer Bills. He had recourse to that plan also,
because he thought that, under the circumstances
hich had been recently under their observation, show-
the difficulty of disposing of Exchequer Bills with
advantage to the Government or the public—and
he spoke rather of the interests of the public than
of the interests of the Government—because the sudden
introduction into the market of a large amount of Ex-
chequer Bills, which the public felt very severely—he
thought that, under the circumstances, the plan he pro-
posed would prove to be the least inconvenient ; and
he believed that it would be most advantageous to the
general interests, and loss liable to derange the monetary
concerns of individuals, to give the Government
the discretion of adopting either the sale of Exchequer
Bills, or the sale of stock in part. He did
not pretend to introduce a new principle, because he
was merely adopting a proposal which had already been
developed by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr.
F. Baring). He knew, at least, that the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman
had been in favour of a proposition of the kind ;
for with the candour which he had always displayed in
office, and which he expected to experience from him in
opposition, he had intimated distinctly that it was his
opinion that such a course might be adopted. Of course,
the sum to be raised would be limited by the necessities
of the public service for the year. He should observe
that he did not adopt the course he proposed to follow
without a deep feeling of regret at finding himself called
upon to add to the existing deficiency of the country.
He lamented deeply that while adding to the debt of the
country, he was not in a situation to hold out any hope
to the House ; but, tit the same time, he did not propose
to make any special provision for the debt to be created.
The reasons which debarred him from doing so, were
the same, as he had already stated, prevented him
from at once considering the whole question of the
deficiency in, the revenue. In his opinion, those
, important questions could not be well considered
until the whole subject, both as to the means of dimi-
nishing expenditure and of increasing the revenue, could
be fully considered in connection with them. He would
only further say, that as, in the present proposition, he
had sincerely endeavoured to give effect to that mode of
meeting the present difficulties of the case which he
had' to deal with, so he hoped he would not be sup-
posed as anxious to set a precedent of repairing a defi-
ciency by an addition to the debt. So far from it, that
I have not even alluded to any precedent which I might
have produced. He did not think, as a general measure,
the principle was defensible ; and he looked forward to
the time when the whole question would meet with the
calm consideration of the House to that period, which
was not distant, when it would be his duty to submit to
the House the whole case in detail—not to point out
how the deficiency of one year might be met, but how
the expenditure of the = revenue might be equalised.
The Right Hoe; Gentlerrierr " concluded with moving a
resolution in confortitiiY Witli his plan.
Mr. F. BARING had hardly thought it would have
been necessary for him to 'We troubled the House with

! any remarks upon the statement of the Right Hon.
Gentleman ; indeed, it was not what he had stated that
called for any observation; it was that part which he
. had omitted.—(Cheers.) It was at all times a difficult
1
' matter to follow a long financial statement without
preparation, and it was the more difficult for him to do
so then, as he bad been but a short time in town ; but
there were one or two points upon which he would offer
a few observations. He believed the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had made no alteration—had found no mistakes
in the estimates made by him (Mr. Baring) in his finan-
cial statement in April. It was a source of satisfaction
to him to find such to be the case after a lapse of six
months.—(Hear, hear.) He understood the proposed
transaction as it was stated in the newspapers ; he had
no doubt upon the matter until he heard the statement
lof the Right Hon. Gentleman. As he understood the
transaction, the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed to fund
I two and a half millions, while, by the arrange-
ment of the terms he proposed at the same
time to raise two . and a half millions in money.
But when the Right Hon. Gentleman stated that he men-
tioned five millions to inform the public that he should
want two-and-a-half millions he (Mr. Baring) must say
that he was left in doubt whether he understood the
measure of the Right H, n. Gentleman.—(Hear.) He
(Mr. Baring) trusted that no s-ord would fall from him
to encumber the -public guile! i ; but he did not think
that Right Hon. Gentleman co tid say that his measure
had succeeded. It appeared to him that the Right
_Hon.
Gentleman was in this posi ion -.that he did not know
whether he had fundat two-t was.-half millions or not;
that he would neither know :h.! amount funded or the
amount of money he was likely to receive—neither the
one nor the other. If, therefore, his main object was
to fund two-and-a-half millions of Exchequer Bills, the
Right Hon. Gentleman had not scured that object ; if,
on the other hand, his object was to obtain two and a half
millions in money, to obviate the necessity of going out
of the market, in that case the Right Hon. Gentlernan had
not got the money.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman stated, that no one would quarrel with the
amount or bonus he had adopted. So far from it, if he
(Mr. Baring) might have snggested anything to him
previous to his making an observation of that kind, he
should have said, " Don't make the operation without
being perfectly sure of succeeding." He (Mr. Baring)
believed that the advantage of any small saving (which
he did not underrate), would not be equal, in the preSent
state of the finances, to offering sufficient terms to se-
cure the operation proposed. But with regard tg.the
amount of the offer of the Right Honourable. Gentle-
man, he (Mr. Baring) must say, that it appeared to him
a satisfactory offer. He said that with satisfaction,
because it appeared that after all that the Right
Hon. Gentleman had said—that after ten years of Whir
Administration, he proposed terms which- he believ.,,j
were less by one-third than be himself funde-1 -
exche-
quer Bills in 1830. These were facts 'e (Dlr. Baring)
was glad to learn. After all the,- '
1. heard of the ruin
of our finances—of the en,,, _ _ usJ.
mo difficultiesa( in which he
(Mr. Baring) had l-'c the -finances of. the country, the
Moment the IV 6.nt —llion. Gentleman wanted money he
offered to
hoffader ''''
*iiie Public a sum one-third less than he himself
°..ered after some 40 or 50 years uninterrupted adini-
r..stration of the finances. These facts, .he repeated, were
consolatory amidst the abuse and obloquy that were cast
upon them, that when he (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) came to deal in the money market, he did
not find they had left it 50 per cent. worse, but
25 per cent. better.---(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
With regard to the operation of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, there was one point to which he wished to allude.
He thought he (Mr. Goulburn) should use his best en-
deavours to avoid a loan. The House might recollect
what was the case in the good old times when a loan was
to be executed. Except in extreme cases, he should re-
gard it as extremely wrong to have recourse to a loan.—
(Hear, hear.) He conceived the plan of opening to com-
bination the raising of 2,500,0001., was liable to very
strong objections. He thought it was not right to have
recourse to a combination of the monied aristocracy. The
Right Hon. Gentleman proposed to make up, by means
of Exchequer Bills or sale of Stock, what he was unable
to do by means of his operation. He agreed with him
in the necessity of keeping down the amount of Exche-
quer Bills. But the Right Hon. Gentleman would find
that the amount of those Bills had been reduced by him-
self and Lord Monteagle in 1835 ; therefore the Right
Hou. Gentleman would find a less amount of those Bills
in the market than when he came into office. Though
the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite had reduced them
by three millions, yet they were not the only persons
who reduced diem. Ht should be rather for
rasing the required amount by sale of Stock
than by Exchequer Bills. But he was surprised
the Right Hon. Gentleman did not make any allusion to
the prospects of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Not once
did he vouchsafe a small glimpse as to how he should
proceed with the finances of the country hereafter.—
(Cheers.) When on a former occasion he was taunted
with saying he would let this alone ho twice rose and in-
dignantly repelled the accusation. And yet he now
considered, after his success, that the wisest plan was to
leave things alone, and wait the next Session.—(Cheers.)
If he (Mr. Baring) thought delay was absolutely neces-
sary he should not object to a delay of some weelcs—
(Hear, hear)—but in his conscience he could not admit
the plea of delay in the present position of affairs ; and
after the late Government had been attacked and de-
feated upon their financial measures—(Hear, hear)—
he could not understand such a proceeding.—(Cheers.)
He had, with his Noble Friend the Member for London,
opposed any such delay under such circumstances, and
considered it unadrisable to pursue the course pursued
by the other side. Ile hoped the Right lion. Gentle-
man had some expectation that it would not be necesary
to levy new taxes, but it' he had no such expectation then
he thought it dangerous to delay, and he considered it
unfair that those taunts of profligate expenditure a.hould
be directed' against the Whig Government.
_ _

Sir R. PEEL intimated that he made no such accu-
sation.

Mr. BARING—But they were the words of the Noble
Lord, before whoso motion the Whig Government was
beaten.—(Cheers.) He knew the Right Hon. Baronet
was always ready to disavow the sentiments of one-halt
of his friends.—(Cheers.) These accusations were made
and charges were founded on them, and then the Right
Hon. Gentleman says he did not make them.—(Cheers.)
But when a great party were banded together it was
not natural to suppose that without some bond of union
they would be employed by those holding situations
in the Government of the Right Honourable Baronet.—
(Cheers.) He delivered his protest against. the course
of the Right Hon. Gentleman. He hoped he would be
successful in his measures, and he was himself as anxious
about their success as when he was in office himself. He
was convinced the good faith of the country was un-
shaken, and though the Right Hon. Gentleman might not
get the amount he desired, he would not draw from
thence any evil omen of the finances of the country.—
(Cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
the Right Hon. Gentleman had concluded his speech
with a sentiment which he was in the habit of using
himself when in opposition, viz., that the good faith of
the country was secure, and that. there was no reason to
despair of the finances ol.the country. He had stated
some objections to the measure he (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) proposed. He protested against the Ex-
chequer Bills, but he really did not understand the pre-
cise meaning of his objection. He said he thought it
necessary to redeem the unfunded debt, and not to have
recourse to a loan—but his proposition met both those
ends.—(Hear, hear.) He had objected to the principle
of his measure. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
knew it greatly depended on the temper of the public
mind; but, taking the whole of his measure together, he
had in his hands the power, from subscription:, made, to
redeem the unfunded debt and to raise the amount for
the service of the year.—(Cheers.) So far the measure
had succeeded. But he was told there was danger in
the plan he adopted. He allowed there was, but there were
reasons for doing so. Lord Monteagle attempted to fund Ex-
chequer Bills through the medium of public competition.
Three large capitalists made proposals different from each
other, one of which was the Bank of England, but he did
not succeed with either. He (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) did not think the principle of competition was
liable to the objections of the Right Hon. Gentlemen op-
posite. He conceived tbatall parties ought to have an equal
chance of partaking of any benefit that might arise from his
proposition. It would certainly be impossible to take
1,001;1. from one man and 1,0001. from another ; but
then the small capitalist could come in and subscribe upon
the same terms as the person having a million, and on
the present occasion many persons had done so. He did
not think it right to retrace the steps of Lord Mont-
eagle, who was not successful in his attempt, and it
would appear unjust to those who came forward in the
first instance, to make offers such as Government could
not accept. Did the Right Hon. Gentleman think that
if he had offered a bonus of 18s. 9d. per cent. he could
obtained what he had desired ? Certainly not. Why,
when Mr. S. Rice had proposed the loan for the West
Indian compensation, he had offered a bonus of V. 18i. per
cent., but he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) by a com-
bination of advantages had been enabled to, make a
better bargain for the public. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman thought that he (the Chancellor of the Ex
chequer) had damaged the credit of the country by
offering terms which it was doubtful whether the public
would accept now. He had taken the best means in
his power to ascertain the terms which the public had
a right to expect, and he had made his arrangements
accordingly. He thought it his duty to make this offer
to the public, little regarding whether the whole of the
subscription was filled up so that he could obtain suffi-
cient to accomplish his object. The Right Hun. Gen-
tleman had stated that he had offered ten per cent. less
than he had done ten years ago when he had occupied the
same office. Now, these matters were subject to such
perpetual variation that it could not be matter of praise
or blame that these arrangements . had been concluded
on more advantageous terms at one period than at an-
other; but since that period the Government had ob-
tained the power of regulating the absorption of Exche-
quer Bills, so that they were enabled to obtain more ad-
vantageous terms than could have formerly been ob-
tained and be felt that it was better to stand there and
defend hitriself against the charge of having made too
advantageous a bargain for the public, than to have to
defend himself against the charge of having uselessly
squandered the public money. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man had said that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
had misunderstood him on one point as regarded the im-
position of new taxes. What he had said was,
that before proposing new taxes he must examine the
expenditure as well as the revenue, and that, if he should
then, as he expected he shOuld, find it impossible
to go on without proposing new taxes, he could
state that the welfare of the country required the
imposition of new taxes, and appeal to the good sense
of the public on the subject. If he were now to bring
forward a crude and undigested scheme of taxation,
would he not be - told by Hon. Gentlemen opposite to
look into the expenditure, and he would not bring for- .
ward his plan of finance until he had carefully consi-
dered the subject, so as to be enabled' to impose the new
bureens, if such should, as he thought they would, be-
come necessary, in such a manner as to produce the

least amount of inconvenience.—(Hear. hear.) Tha
Right Hon. Gentleman had forgotten what he (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) had said when the question of
the Sugar Duties was under discussion. He had then
said that if time were given, the importation of' sugar
would increase, and the revenue would increase in conse-
quence ; and such had been the case. He stood in a
different situation from the late Government; they had
had 10 years to devote to the consideration of the subject.
He had had no opportunity of fully considering the
questions of finance to which the Right Hon. Gentleman
had alluded, and he would not be driven to act without
due preparation.—(Hear, hear, on the Ministerial
benches.) He did not know that it would be necessary
for him to offer any further observations in reply to the
Right Hon. Gentleman. It appeared to him to be evi-
dent that the Right Ylon. Gentleman approved of the
principle of his plan, although he might object to certain
details ; and he, therefore, thanked the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman for the support he had given him.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. WILLIAMS said that he should be far from re-
commending the Right Hon. Gentleman the (Chancellor
of the Exchequer) under any circumstances, to have re-
course to fresh taxation. He believed that the deficiency
in the revenue might be easily made good, not by the
imposition of new taxes, but by having recourse to a
system of economy which might be enforced without any
detriment to the public service. The means by whieh
the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed to get out of his
financial difficulties might appear to him the easiest
which he could adopt ; but it was precisely the mode
in which every spendthrift endeavored to get rid
of the eifficulties into which his prodigality had
led him. For his part he had heard the Right
Honourable Gentleman's proposition with great pain
and regret. No reasonable. man could have expected to
find that they should be called on to add so largely to
the debt of the country after twenty-five years of peace.
During the seven years which had elapsed since 1834,
an addition had been made to the funded debt of this
country of a sum of '33,900,0004 of which the annual
interest was 1,167,0001 The proposition of the Right
Hon. Gentleman would make the debt incurred since
1834, amount in all to the sum of 36,500,000 ; which
wds at the rate of more than 5,000,000/. during each of
the last seven years. He knew he would be told that
twenty millions of that sum had been incutred for the
purpose of purchasing the emancipation of the West
India slaves, and that that sum had been devoted to
a just and ri,ghteous purpose. That he believed was the
opinion of the country; but he should say tha tif the
present generation so highly, estimated that act, they
might have borne the cost of it, andnot throw the burden
upon pot terity. What could be • more unjust
or more dishonest, than that 'the present gene-
ration should contract a debt, the payment of which
would devolve upon future generations. An end must
come to the system of adding to the national expendi-
ture during time of peace. They had, in the course of
seven years, added 36,000,0001. to a debt already ex-
ceeding 800,000,0001. Was there to be no end to this
accumulution of debt? • Could any man suppose that this
increasing weight could be borne for any great length of
time, or that generation after generation would continue
to pay the interest of such a sum? He believed that no
rational being could believe that the system could be pro-
longed. What was to be the end of it? When the end
came, and come it would inevitably, it would be attended
with consequences which no human being could calcu-
late. But, instead of there being any necessity for im-
posing additional taxes at the present moment, he hoped
he should be able to show, and not from any speculative
doctrines of his own, that by the adoption of a system
of rigid economy, not only the whole of the present
deficiency might be made up, but a considerable saving
in the national income might be effected besides. The
amount in the estimates of the present year of
those four branches of the public service, the
Army, the Navy, the Ordnance, and the Mis-
cellaneous, amounted to 18,949,0001. As he wished,
however, to contrast the expenses of the service
of the present year with the expenses of former years he
would deduct the extra charges of the present year. He
would deduct 400,000'(. for China and 155,000/. for
Canada, and the expenditure in the navy over the last
two years, which amounted to 191,000/., making alto-
gether 746,000/. ; and that sum deducted from the
amount he had previously named would leave for the
four branches of the service for the present year the sum
of 18,200,000/. Now, he did not think he could do
better than refer to • the last year when Hon. Gentlemen
opposite were in office before. He asked, then, what
difference there was in the circumstances of the country,
as compared with the year 1830, which could make a
difference in the expenses of the public service during
the two periods necessary. The expenses of the four
branches of the service he had alluded to amounted in
1830 to 15,860,0001., being less than the sum required
far the present year, after making the deductions he had
mentioned, of 3,330,0001. That would just complete the
sum which the Right Hon. Gentleman wanted to add to
the funded debt this year. He could refer the Right
Hon. Gentleman to a still better example. During the
years 1834, 1835, 1836, and 1837 the expenses of the
four branches under the late Government amounted in
the average to no more than 14,148,000/.. making a less
sum than that 'proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman.
of 4,055,0001. If the Right Hon. Gentleman would only
adopt the estimates of those four years he would have
the deficiency of the present year, and of the four last
years, almost entirely made up for him in one year. He
should like to learn what there was in the peculiar cir-
cumstances of the country now which rendered so large
an increase in the expenditure of the four services ne-
cessary? He could point out no material difference in the
circumstances of the country, compared with former
periods, which imposed such a necessity either as re
garded the state of public feeling at home or the state of
our foreign relations. In 1830 a great coevulsion had
taken place in France, the consequences of which no
man could foresee. In this country a great portion of
the population were in a most distracted ai.d dissatisfied
state. In some districts both life and property were in-
secure. But what was the state of the country at the
present moment ? He believed that greater distress ex-
isted in the country, and that the people were suffering
greater privations, than had been ever known in this
country at any period of its history ; but still everything
was tranquil, and no political disaffection was displayed.
With regard to our foreign relations the Eastern 'ques-
tion is admitted upon all hands to be now settled. They
were told in her Majesty's Speech at the commencement
of the Session " that the causes which had for a time
separated France from the other great Powers of Europe
had ceased." Canada was now in a tranquil state ; and
he would venture to assert, from his own observation of
public feeling in that country, that if the same course
was pursued hereafter in Canada, which had been fol-
lowed by Lora Sydenham, they would have that country
firmly and honestly attached to this. Again, in the
United States. of America, he had no doubt but the
questions that estranged that country from its good feel-
ing towards us, if affairs were properly managed, might
be settled amicably ; for he had reason to believe that
the great body of the people of the United States—and
they governed the. country absolutely—were decidedly
in favour of a continuance of amicable relations with this
country. He also begged leave to point out another branch
of the public service in which a great reduction might
be effected—namely, in the collection of the revenue.
He found that the amount of taxes collected last year
amounted to 51,850,000/., and that the cost of the col-
lection, as appeared from a paper laid before Parliament,
amounted to 4,280,0001., being more than 8 per cent►
upon the entire revenue. Now such an expense would
appear to him monstrous under any circumstances, but
when he compared that charge with the amount of for-
mer years, it appeared to him a matter in which a very
great reduction might be made. He found from a return
made by the Treasury to the Finance Committee, that in
the year 1806 the amount of taxes levied amounted to
upwards of 58,000,0001., while the amount of the collec-
tion amounted to no more than 2,790,000/., being no
more than 44 per cent. upon the whole sum. He should.
like to know what was the cause of the vast difference
between the cost of collection then and its cost at the pre-
sent day. There was then 1,300,0001. less expended in
collection than now, although the amount of collec-
tion was greater by the sum of 6,000,0001. Add
then 1,300.000/. to 4,200,0001. excess in the public
service, and they would have a sum of 5,500,0001.,
which might be saved in the present year. That
was. not a mere speculative opinion. He gave it to
them from data which were, he believed, quite unques-
tionable. Besides they should remember that, in 1806,
when the collection amounted to no more than 2,790,000/.
the value of money, as compared with the present day,
was but 14s. or. 15s. in the pound. This sum of
4,200,0001., the present cost of collection, never found•
its way into the Treasury ; but every department put a
finger in the public purse and took out as much as;was,
required for its own expenses. That was a most objec-
tionable system ; and so long as it was continued they
could never effect any solid and efficient reduction. • He
said that such a system should be amended ; and he
hoped the present Government would take the subject
into its most serious consideration, and that they would
adopt the plan which he believed was in operation
some fifty or ,sixty years ago in this country (althut!gh
he was not sure of the fact), namely, that of enfe_ rcing
the payment of all revenue into the Treasury, amid
let-
ting the Treasury afterwards make a repayment of the
necessary sums to the officers of the differenthtv
ments. • The' House of Commons ought to.
4,200,00 CL laid before them to be annuallyhat
was a source'of
have, then,
was also aware
(Hear, hear.)" He was aware that
itidhe
great patronage to a Government, investigated.
speak of the present Governmentt ahow they were pressed for such paatrol
o
nn
e
ge.
question should,
be laid before
butH sdtiidll nothe
thought that the suin in
the House among the estimates
wishing to cast any sort ofht
avast reduction might be
obloquygues of t the ytehaer, a
Governmentand
he would venture to say,
at. Be understood that, before
effected in that
lesbsAdministration, a most rigid
during Administration
that control
control
collection, but that
I have a very remarkable proof
of ayesapreelcBh37m.adlie
ebysatliide
ievausfext Mr. Pitt.
thhe. Treasury over the expense of
was entirely withdrawn.
lal iine
late Duke of B
s to be the Lord of its own will, an 1
Every office
seemsseems the effect of tubeakth:iitthaidnr,alw.
instead of their being, as theer 't 'e
every officer nt o have an unlimited power over 1,
purse of the
.natlo spirit
of the Constitution directs, under the constant cheek of
the Treasury." He begged to read upon the seine sub-
ject ail extract from a digest of a Report of the Commis-
sion of Inquiry into the Excise Establishments. They
say " that the charge of the collection for the revenue
and the payment of such revenue in its progress to the
Treasury, amounted to 4,500,000/4 which was obtained
by stopping that amount out of the gross revenue in its
progress to the Exchequer, or that that amount of the
produce of the taxation was not paid into the Exche-.
quer, contrary to the great principle of the Constitution,
which requires that the Exchequer should possess the
means of securing the legal appropriation of the money
levied upon the public." Now, he quite agreed with that
Report, and he did say that the present system was one. _
in the slightest degree objectionable, and that it did en-
tail a vast expense, which he had. no doubt was totally
unnecessary. He did trust that the present Govern-