The Sun.
London, England, 1823-04-18 00:00:00

HOVSE OF COMMONS.

The Order for the Call of the House having been discharged,
the Gallery was opened at four o'clock, and the House was
then occupied in receiving Petitions. The confusion caused: by
the crowd rushing into the Gallery rendered the proceeding a
first inaudible.

. MISCELLANEOUS.
Mr. DUNDAS presented a petition from Edinburgh,pray..
_ng for certain provisions in the Bill for altering the gimes on
S..:otch Spirits.—Laid on the table. • • •
Mr. WODEHOUSE moved for certain returns of the num-
ber of bushels of Malt upon which Duty had been paid during
the last year.—Ordered. •
Mr. INIARRVArf prefiented a petition from the Island of
Trinidad, camplatnins of distress.—Ordered to be printed.
General OASCON NE gave notice that on Thursday the
24th, be should naive an address to the Hotise upon the sub-
lect of Officers upon Half-pay residing in Ireland being paid in
rish currency.
Colonel O'NEIL presented a petition front the Merchants
and Ship-owners of Belfait against the Stranraer Harbour Bill.
Ordered to lie on the table; and to be *lilted.
CATHOLIC PETITIONS.
Petitons were presented against the CathOlic Claims, from
the Dean and Chapter 'of Peterborough ; from the Archdea.
conries Of Wells, Taunton, and Bath from the Clergy of the

Cathedral Churc'h of Winchester ' from the CorpoTation of
Dublin ; from the City of Oxford ; from the Areluleaconry of
Colchester; front the Arehdeaconry of Essex.; from the Arch-
deaconry of M iddleesx ; from the Clergy of the Diocese of
Gloucester • from the Archdeaconry and Clergy of Hereford;
from the A'relideaconry of Northumberland ; from. the several
Parishes in the City of - Bristol ; from the Deanery of Car.
marthen ; from the Deanery of Litchfield ; from the Arch-
deceonry of Stafford ; from several Parishes in . the county of
Armagh ; from the County of Down ; from the Archdeacon
and Clergy of Coventry; from the Maydr and Corporation and
Burgesses of Colchester; and from the-Inhabitants of Not.
tinglient, • .
Mr. Secretary PEEL presented a similar Petition from the
Chancellor, Musters, and Scholars of the University of Ox-
ford,,stating their alarm at the Bill about to be introduced to
the House.—The Petition havin4 been read,
Sir J. NEWPORT expressed his satisfaction that this body
had now given credit for honesty of intention to those who op-

posed them upon this question. it was not exactly in the to-
lerant
spirit for which they. were remarikable ; and the spirit I
which they had usually evinced was any thing but consistent
with their former conduct upon the accession of the House of
.Hanover to the Throne of these realms. He was, however,
glad to see this improvement in the feeling. of the University,
and hoped it would eventually extend itself to the general
question which the petition concerned.
The Petition was ordered to be printed.
Sir T. LETHBRIDGE rose to present a petition which had
been placed in hislimids froro.an intlividual.rnamed Harcourt.
Lees. He stated that he had no acquaintance with the peti.
• tioner, but that the petition contained statements which he re-
gretted had not. been before in the possession of the House,
since he understood it to be the intention of a Right Iron.

Gentleman opposite to move that night for leave to bring in a
Bill for removing the restrictions under which Roman Catho;
lies were placed by the laws of this country. .It prayed that
the house would reject such a Bill, as being dangerous to the
peace and existence of the country. lie would not read the
whole of the petition to the, House as it was very long.—(A
laugh.)—Neither could he 'answer for the truth of the allega-
tions which it contained, becanSe lie was not acquainted with
the basis on which some of them rested. As far, however, as
he .could understand the conclusions and -the prayers of the
petition, they appeared to him to be very reasonable. It
touched strongly upon the religious parts of the question, which
he conceived to be the essential part, and upon which all-the
other parts were founded. lie knew that Hon. Gentleman who
advocated the other side of the
,question always kept that
part of it out of view ; but this, he contended was an unfair
way of discussingit. The petition stated that a Catholic con-
spiracy had been entered into •in Ireland to establish the Ca-
tholic religion. This had been proved by . the confession of
persons,about to stiffer an ignominious punishment, from the
sentence of the law. This had been borne out fly the Right
Hon: the Attorney-General for Ireland in November last at the
trial of the Ribbomnen in Ireland, when it was proved that
the object of the conspiracy was to overthrow the British Con-
stitution, and to murder all the Protestants. It stated one ob-
ject of the conspiracy to be to make Popish Priests the re-
turning officers at elections-4A laugh.)—lle saw nothing like
a joke in thii—(l4aughter)—he thought it a very seriousmatter.
Ile hoped this was not the way that those who talked of reform
were desirous of reforming that House. The petition also
prayed that the House would investigate the inquisitorial acts
of the Catholic monasteries, nunneries, and Jesuitical establish,
ments- in Ireland. The Hon. Baronet expressed his concur-
rence in the sentiments contained in the petition as to the
dangerous nature of the Catholic doctrines. He also agreed
with an Hon. Member who spoke upon the subject the other
night, that no Cabinet ought to allow this to be an open ques-
tion. It was understood that the object of the Government of
Ireland was conciliation. Was it conciliation to put the lives
and properties of the Protestant population in the danger whicit
would result from a removal of the laws which protected them
against these dangers ? Ile thought the effect which this system
had already produced, was to be seen in the state in which Ire-

land now
Mr. WHITE stated his belief that not one allegation of the
petition was founded in truth. Ile could speak from his own
knowledge of the country and, of the people of Ireland ; and
he only wished that lion. Members knew them as well as he
did. The Catholic population .of Ireland would not then be
calumniated as they were. This was not a Catholic cause, but
the cause of the empire. He repeated, that,if the Hon. Mem-
ber knew the parties who suffered these deprivations, he would.
not have said what he had done; he would not so cruelly ma-
lign a body of people who discharged their duty to the empire
its they did.
The petition was ordered to be printed.
Similar petitions were presented from the town of Newcastle-
under-Lyme, from the Archdeaconry of Berks, and from the
Parish of Hatfield.
Mr. COKE presented a petition, signed by fifty-five of the
Clergy of the Diocese of Norwich, praying that the Roman
Catholics might be relieved frem the disabilities under which
they had so long laboured.
The petition was then.reati by. the Clerk.
Sir 131.1RDErr rose, not only to express his satisfaction
et a petition which was so hofiourable to the parties from whom
it proceeded, but also to state his dissatisfiletion at the .exhibi.
tiou of this annual farce of bringing forward the question year
tiller year, sowing the seeds of danger, by reviving and fo-
menting all the oppressive passiona, and feelings of violated
rights, which were connected with its agitation; and that par;
ticularly since they had beard, only two nights ago, from
one who was formerlY the eloquent advocate of the Ca-
tholics, now Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, that
he believed there was no chance of Carrying the question. in
their favour. Thus it appeared, that after all the exertions be
had made in the c.iuse, he had only selected it as a theMe for
its eloquence, as a means of eatchtng a little fleeting popula-
rity. And now the subject was agaiwto be brought forward to
hold up to the people of Ireland all their wrongs and injuries,
painted by the eloquence of the Right lion, Gentleman in the
brightest hues, to be followed by the assurance that they must
have no hope of redress ;,and this, too, coming frem, a Minis.
ter of the country. it !would be far better. to tell them at once
that all their hopes were extinguished, and that they were
never to exPect a restoration of their just rights. If the Right
Hon. Gentleman had always known that there was no chance
of success, why did he proceed in this course ? why were these
unfortunate people so long to feel the pangs of hope deferred,
to end at last in despair confirmed ? But the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had said mere than that —he had stated it to be his opi-
nion that no, Administration Could ever be found Whose mein;
bets could be' brought to agree upon this measure, which,, as,
he believed, was absolutely necessary: to the peace and safety.
of the country. They had heard from the Right Honourable
Gentleman that he was ready to give his place, if by doing
that he could accomplish the object for which he had-so zea-
lously and so eloquently pleaded. But it appeared to him that
the manner in which he had taken place was a compromise of
that object. But there had been instances of Administrations
who agreed upon this question.—(lf ear, hear, ft mirth e Treasury
Benches.)—There was the Administration of Mr:Fox.—((:heers
of dissent from the Treasury Benches.)—Undoubtedly, there was
at least a majority in the Cabinet at that time in favour of the
questiOn. •-'They brought in a measure in its favour."--(Hette!
They could not certainly curry it because they found deserters
in a quarter where the present GovernMent need not fear. it..-=
411 the miseries of Ireland had arisen from the impotent and
scandalous injustice of her GOvernment, and. she was now in
a-state worse than had ever before been known. The other
night, the first Law Officer of diet Government was basely
deserted in a case where he had endeavoured to make the law
effective to the best of his judgment and conscience. And
the reason assigned by the Right Honourable the. Secretary
was, that he would not do justice to either party, beeause he
was afraid of giving a triumph to one of them. He object-
ed altogether to exelefo informations„ but if, there was,
ever a case in which cirettinatances wool d justify one, it ap-
peared to be the one In question. With the body who were
concerned in that transaction, the question of the Catholic»; was
not a matter of religion, it was not a political consideration
which made them hostile. It was a calculation .of arithmetic.
They held all the places and the emeihnnents of the Govern-
ment, anti they were determined not to let in the larger part of
the population to share them; ile contended that no man
:could honestly feel alarth at the consequences ofearrying this
measure. Tbere was no lohipi, a fear of a Catholic league
of Sovereigns. That triumvirate the Pope, the Devil, and
the Pretender, had no longer- any terrors.—(A laugb.)—
The Pope, he, believed, was now as harmless as any. old
Lady in Christendom.-_(A laugh.)---There was one Hon.
Baronet, the Member for: Soinersetshire, who seemed indeed.
to have a fear of the Jesuits of Ireland. lie might as well
wish for the removal of thelaws against witchcraft ; for they had
heard lately of direeOld women trying to draw blood from an-
other, to take away her charms, as they termed it—and this
was in Somersetshire too.--(Loud laughter.)—Did the Right
lion; Member fur Oxford fear any thing from the power of
the Pope ? He was sure that the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman's mind was too enlightened ; and if be could see the
sentiments of his soul he knew that lie could not entertain
the slightest alarm upon that ground. Ile would be wil.
ling to put it to him upon his honour, and leave the question
to be decided by his answer. If then, there was no danger in
granting these concessions, was there not danger in leaving the
people of Ireland in such a situation as that in which they were
now placed ? After haying been taught the extent of their op-
pressions and their wrongs by the glowing colours in which
they had been held up to them by the Right lion. Gentleman,
he now came forward to undeceive them, and to tell them that
the Government would not relax one iota of the system of op-
pression which had been so long exercised. England could
never be a prosperous country while Ireland was divided and
miserable. With this system Ireland could not be otherwise.
They had now a Lord Lieutenant who was disposed, if he had
the power, to protect the Catholics and administer equal laws,
and lie was a much more rare bird than a black swan. And
for the. Attorney-General, that he was pretty generally con-
sidered, in the Cabinet, as a black sheep. Their efforts had
not been supported when directed to remedy these abuses, and
they could not be effectual under such a divided Govern-
ment. What, then, was to be thought of a Cabinet who
thus compromised all public dangers and qiiestions of
great public importance, in order to retain place ? The
evils of Ireland might go on--the balance of Power' in Europe
might be destroyed—but arrengements must be made for
keeping the seats which they had secured. He had the satis-
faction of believing that there was in this country tispirit which
was independent of, and superior to, its errors of Government,
whether fundamental or administrative, and by which it would
eventually struggle through all its difficulties. Holding this
opinion, he. should now protest against the annually repeated
fsrce which was to be played off that night, and not become a

party to it. The Hon. Baronet concluded by reading the
following extract from a speech of Mr. Plunkett's, delivered
in 1813, upon the Catholic question, condemning the divisions
which existed in the Cabinet at that time with regard to it :
" But how can any honest. mind be reconciled to the ambi-
guity in which the Cabinet has concealed itself from public
view on this great national question—or with what justice can
.they complain of the madnese arising out of this fever of their
own crenting This Is nPsubject of compro-
mise—either the claiM is forbidden by some imperious principle,
eoo,eacred to be tampered with, or it is enjoined by a law of
reason and justiee, which it iS'oppreSeion to resist. - In ordi-
nary cases, it sounds well to say, that a question is left to the
unbiassed sense of Parliament and the people; but that a mea-
sure of vital importance, which has been discussed again and
again by all his Majesty's Ministers, should be left to work
its own way, •and suffered to drift along the' tide of Par-
liamentary or popular opinion, seems difficult to understand.
. . . . When it is known that they all have considered it
deeply, and formed their opinions decidedly, in direct opposi-
tion to each other, that .after this they" should consult in the
tame Cabinet, and sit on the same Bench, professing a de-
eided opinion in point of theory, and a strict neutrality in point
of practice. . . One half of the King's Ministers
encouraging them to seek without enabling them to obtain ; the
other half, suhtlivided, some holding out an ambiguous hope,
others announcing a never-ending despair. I ask, is this a state
in which the Government has a right to leave it? Some master-
-piece- of imperial policy must be unfolded, something far re-
moved frpm the suspicion of unworthy compromise of principle
fur power, to reconcile the feelings of the intelligent "public, or
uphold a rational confidence in the honesty or seriousness of the
G-overninente".
The Hon. Baronet, after reading this extract, sat Gown amidst
loud and long continued cheers.
Lord NUGENT said, that however lie might agree in some
of the sentiments expressed by his Hon. Friend, he had heard
with the greatest surprise what had fallen from hint at the con-
clusion of his sfiecch. He should certainly not follow the ex-
ample of abandoning the Catholics because Ministers did not
honestly support the cause. -
Mr. Secretary CANNING rose, and said that as he wished
to contradict what had fallen from the Honourable Baronet
iii tote, he wished to do so simply, and at once.—(Cries of—
Go on.")
Lord NUGENT proceeded after the calls on Mr. Canning
had subsided. He did not wish to stand between the Right
Hen. Gentleman and the House, but he was anxious to take
the ettrliest opportunity of refusing his concurrence in what he
conceived to IJC so highly injurious to the cause which he had
always advocated. So long as it was brought on, he was deter-
mined to give it what feeble support was in his power.
Mr. Secretary CANNING craved pardon of the Noble Lord
and the House for having interrupted him in his observations.
But he was anxious to put forward his unqualified contradic-
tion of the charges which had been made agains4im. He un-
derstood the Hon. Baronet to have said that he (ar. Canning)
had held out that ; the Catholic cause was hopeless. He ha
said no such thing; he thought no such thing. lie thought the
cause hopeless in the present state of the country. He thought
it hopeless to expect the forming of an Administration to agree
upon this measure, and also upon the measures necessary to
carry on the public business. Front this, his opinion, some
might have erroneously supposed he.. had stated the cause to
be altogether hopeless. He believed the question would make
its way progressively unless Government united against it.
He feared, indeed, that the question had almost received its
death-blow from the secession which had been threatened from
the opposite side; but in that case the blame lay upoir the
seceders. He had done his best to promote the cause whether
he was in or out of office. Ile had had the satisfaction of pro-
posing a Resolution on the subject, which for the first time sad
been ;carried' in that House. Last year he had brought for-
ward and advocated a partial 'question on the subject, which had
actually passed that House. Under these circumstances he
did not despair of the question, if it were fairly supported.
There was no man in that House, whatever might be his Roll- ,
tics, 'to whom he would not-give his support on this question,
thus differing from the sentiments of the lion. Baronet. The
Baronet had certainly,. in his opinion, diminished the chance
of success ; and although he would vote for the expected Moe
tion of his Right Hon. Friend, he would almost advise him not
to bring it forward.
Mr. TIERNEY assured the House he was no party to any
such a compact of secession as had been hinted at by the
Right Honourable Secretary. Let 'who would .bring forward •
the question lie would support it. Nothing should ever induce '
him to swerve from 'supporting a measure which be thought
essential to the interest of the country. In the general reason.
ing of the Hon. Baronet he perfectly agreed : and history and
posterity would decide who it was that had destroyed the hopes
of the Catholics. He thought it was a mockery to go on year
after year advocating a case admitted to be hopeless. His nu-
spresston was the same as that of the Honourable Baronet, with
repect to the language held some time since by the Right Hon.
Gentleman. Ile certainly understood him to say that the cause
would be hopeless until an Administration should be found en-
tirely friendly to the question. Ile (Mr. Tierney) :thought it
never could be carried' unless by such a Government. The
present was not a new question, it was familiar to-the House
ever since the. Year 1805 s when it was brought forward ley Mr.
VOL Was there,' he would ask, any chance of its succeeding,
iii another place without Government support? How stood the
Catholic Question when the Right Hon. Gentleman brought
forward his partial measure?' A new Reign had commenced.
He wished to-say nothing at ell disrespectful to the memory of
our late revered Sovereign, but it was known that there was
such a hias in-his mind against this question that It was under-
stood he would exercise his prerogative, and refuse the Royal
Assent to any-measure on the subject which might be presented
to him by both Houses of Parliament. This more than .410-,
lied any man in holding office without pledging himself to this
question. Now, we had a new Sovereign, whose mind was, at
least, open to conviction on the subject, 'and whose opinion, it
was believed, were more friendly than adverse to it. Vie Right
lion. Secretary had long declared his determination to support:
this question : and no man admired more than he (Mr. T.) did the
talents of that Right lion. Gentleman, or snore applauded the
exertion of them in favour of the Catholic cause. And with re-
gard to the Attorney-General for Ireland (if, indeed, after what
had passed he was still Attorney-General for Ireland)—(A laugh)
unquestionably no man had shewn more zeal upon' the subject;
but the misfortune was, that no mairliad the firmness to hold
to the tmeation to keep out of office : for on entering office the
question was substantially dropped. He had no doubt that.,
considering the paucity of talent among those who opposed the
weestion, firmness in principle, on this point, would ensure the
question ultimate success. Was there any thing in Lord Liver-
pool, or in a certain great Lawer, to induce a belief that pub.
lic.considerations alone would weigh with them on the question
of retaining or abandoning office ? And as for the Right Hon.
Secretary himself, slid he suppose that they would have receiv-
ed him into office unless they wanted him ? Did lie suppose
that they brought hint into the Cabinet from motives of.affec-
don ? Indeed somethiel had taken place. with regard to these
eminent persons, which reminded him of the humble, but pas-
toral language--. • . .
" So sweetly she bade me adieu,
She 'almost bade me return."
(A laugh.)...-lie feared too there was a knot of Gentlemen who
advocated this question, by their numbers (to lay. nothing of
their eloquence), who had without stipulation of any kind
given themselves up to the majority of that House. Had the
supporters of the question been firm throughout, he hail no
doubt that the principle of the measure would have been gain.
ed, ere this, and that all which would now remain to be done
would be to consider the details. Why, indeed, the Right
Hon. Gentiemanproposed bringing on the question this veer,
he really could not comprehend. Ile (Mr: 'l'.) had reskedinin
this year, whether there was any, the least understanding on
the subject, when he entered office. The least hint that there
was would- have Satisfied him ; but to his (Mr. T.'s) sorrow
and mortification lie fourid that office was the only substan-
tial thing he hail, gained upon the occasion. If the Right
Honourable Gehtleman tailed in his motion, the Catholics
would see how their interests had been trifled with. He, how-
ever, should always vote for the question ; and if the Right
lion. Gentleman brought it on, and God gave hint (Mr. I'.)
strength to sit out the debate, he would stop to divide with him,
though he really thought the bringing it on would not do any
good. As for the Right lion. Secretary for the Home De-
partment, he believel his opposition to the subject to be so
steady, so firm, and so manly, that he had no doubt he would
never compromise his principles. The Government, he was
satisfied, was hostilelo the Catholics: It had no objection to
eloquent men who advoCated tbe cause taking office under it,
Government cared not a farthing for theiteeloquence, so long
as they had not the power to decide the question. Under all
the circumstances, he hoped the Right,Hon. Gentleman would
take a discreet course. it e presumed to offer no advice. The
Right Hon. Gentleman himself must be the best judge.
he had before said; if the question were brought on,-he would
suppers it to the last moment; hut if the question were lost, he
declared before-hand that the odium could not attach to his side
of the House. lf, on taking office, the Right Hon. Gentle.
man had any reason to count upon an accession of votes in
another place, he (Mr. T.) shotdd be perfectly satisfied. If
not, the advantage alreadY gained was likely to be host. A-new
Parliament might not be so favourable to the Catholics as the
present; and the Right Honourable Gentleman was respon-
sible to those in whose- confidence he was, for the failure, of
their interests. In conclusion, he would repeat that, if the
question were lest, •it would be because some Gentlemen were
too desirous to obtain office. Once more he declared his
readiness to 4upport the question ; and he begged to know.
the 'determination of the Right Honourable Gentleman as -to
bringing it on.'
Mr. WYNN hoped the House would indulge him with a few

not mean
wordstnt lhi r
ama
ba nt i
It: I 1,
e aotlt laeannntnst
lw.ersWneittheacheahrargegeofeathmeeßfimghmt Itthoenoßuraiglihlte
I yThthaatt oemfficaenhwaidthbetehne
vacceryepst.ednrat upongmeae. colinvpirthonrieigal,lGseil
however, to the charge itself he must observe, that any union
on this subject must have included union upon that of Parlia-
mentary Reform. When he (Mr. Wynn) entered ' office he
sitmipplittlarttii justicehad s
beenh should be
rbfne
nndi distributed tleiteleot ienwnease,salstrwshiet,:,,t,unitl
tacitoyiruf
vinit-Ittio
stipulated for an attention to the affairs of Ireland, and parti-
eutrylar:
rea-
son why the acceptance of office by one who supported the
question should be considered as an abandonment of it.—
Those, however, who were apt to suspect the motives of others
were generally able to find something in their own minds to
the suspicion. Whether he was in or out of office he should
support the qoestion.
Mr. BENNET said he should explain . why he intended,
upon this question to take up his bat and leave the Ilouse.e.-
Ile had hitherto supported the Right Honourable Gentleman,
because he believed that he advocated the cause with sincerity.
He now thought the affair was a perfect trick ; a what in fami-
liar language was called a humbug. It was not the Right lion.
Gentleman coming down to that House with honied words, and
1 fine sentences which would convince him of his sincerity. Ile
did not believe the Right Honourable Gentleman to be sin-
cere. lie had heard the Right Honourable Gentleman make
the very speech alluded to by the Hon. Baronet; and yet he now
saw him sitting on the Treasury Benches, acting with a Govern-
ment hostile to the .question. In the face of Right Hon.
doubt the Irish
Gentleman he told him he did not believe him to be sincere.--
He should not put himself into the cart with such a set of come-
dians. He would not lend himself to such a trick. Ile had n°
it honestly. But the people of Ireland had just cause to com-
pwlaairs twoitfhtirteisalSpessamionhalemspoookoenomfoisii•edm,by the Right Ilouourable
Gentlemen who opposed this questioniiigo:li:necoijosrediii
Gentleman and others of his stamp. He hail often been d
lighted at the eloquence of the Right Ilon. Gentleman, and it
compelled to do.
Mr.. Secretary PEEL said that somasethileintghtilsiafdmill:rileintitiiintfllsmenv:
the Hon. Baronet which rendered it necessary
trouble the House with a few observations. Belied insinuated
a doubt as to the sincerity of the Opposition to this question.—
He (Mr. P.) declared that the. Opposition was as sincere
he
the advocacy. If the Hon. Baronet advocated toleration, le
surely would tolerate the diflirence of opinion which he met
in his adversaries, . The opinkmsof the Hon. Baronet, as he
had expressed them, were the strongest proofs of intollerancae:
The Hon. Baronet had no right to arrogate to himself ans,ect,
elusive propriety of opinion. The Hon. Baronet hd a the !
whether he (Mr. P.) was apprehensive of wouldretender or
tie
devil ; just as if an answer to that question furnish i
Hon. Baronet with the grounds of his opposition.--(11e";
If his Right Honourable Friend should press the cluestg',„id
should persist in giving it his decided opposition ; and "
state the grounds of it; but until then let the lion. crone.,,,
keep to huuself his doubts of the sincerity of othfrm
froth
e
(Mr. P.) would rather consent to his eternal exclieet
.111.0 n!
office than consent to the slightest compromise of his txmi,ti_n2
on this question.—(Cheers.)—lle had never deviatt fiett:._'"
principle upon it. He cared not for the opinions of ott
..
this
he, so long as lie remained ueconvincet ,
oistoace
cailitelaardtiotiuyap;hpliiaesalarnadleateathhdeetoympeonuupynapleitsilnionutladit.b_e unanimouswheerA. per-
question,iniftos,tolounriltl
warrant
daneatittehethlelHonn.nß. airotatnnent-rest
pressly claimed the privilege of acting as he thottli In
is Wel•
this question. And, in the appointment,if the Atarqn ,foe.
leaky to the office of Lord-Lieutenant, and of
such charges. When he (Mr. P.) had ent:ctell°l°4Brcogifrliesenettal_ettn-hienf,r°sielEin:
Friend near him (Mr. Wynn, we believe) he hail foun
f the
,
stacle ,to co.opi;ration with a view to the best lir
~ ll' stercst o
under three different Lord-Lieutenants, and he ee la_ 1
missy
dently defy any imputation of impartial justice being pue had
brought against his administration during that ri 1
Pe a ;an& that
community. He had had the honour to hold thiisitsgin Ireland
never heard of such an imputation. Ile never con
eve any
his feelings. towards the Catholics of Ireland
other than their wannest friends could desire,
the existing laws. He knew his conduct wasasto luiscon.
liable]
to cilarge
struction, and that it had rendered hint open to the . lie
of his his being the advocate of a wkked Orange Ryst_ell'.., bay of
lived,' however, that the well-informed—the generiro utatiao
the Roman Catholics would not bring such an tiejled the
against him.-....(Hear, hear o—lle0—Ile should not ha_No.es _ ~., „oo
House haul he not felt himself called upon to difoon.u-booert,
aonfdhnnoneouner intwconnseeqxputeeancaeinnofa
ittl.iheierhem.
bestir
fit,futchnefrom•his Right
Hon. Friend. to On-
I Gentleman,
veyany personal reflection upon the Bight I.on
was
so dais-
Ile had said that his own opinion on the i
'-ueltztlebate igloo the
statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman,
ed, that he would almost take the issue of the 0 his seicef
Sir F. BURDETT explained. lie
believing danger would arise front the coil
question. t hlid n°t'
Barone t
Mr. Secretary PEEI. said that the lion.
to idiess, bu
only said that the apprehension of daneer WAS ttienui
I n dud not
sip
also that those who said they had sucht'an aPPte
sincerely feel it.
to throw an imputation on his Right lion. Frienue whether this.
• Mr. BROUGHAM said that as the questionewvea _ ?....4cries ot
" No, no.")--lie was much cheered by ai('
great subject should be given up now an!'or r
irregular negative!
Mr. NYYNN also explained and disclaimed
it.tny
this thy,Bight
(A laugh.)—li'ell, then., as the question was, whethert.o_, toe
Hon. (sentleman should bring it forward or not ,0 Lirroe to
Hon. Members had recommended him not to el!) s_e,oill'l'g, 0 so
protest against any such recommendation. ' rLi
Slit isoneurable,
did, in almost all which bad fallen from liii Rig
0, ,e coda.
Friend (Mr. Tierney), having the worst o 1 their
0f the to fl,'.°
of those who had substantially abandoned tbe! intern-
iy plain, andquestion, instead instead of pursuing the man ~ _ -sight lion. „
gable opposition which wat.toven to it Ity tne asw,O_ had . neva_
cretary.of State for the Home, Department, ,pu.....,d oppOr
taken office to abandon the question substanuanY ft:stion hot
it only by words : still he would not have t!le.,!1:/inine Pe:,
back. The Right Hon. Secretary of State f rn„
__„.ii, Gt
partment had opposed the question honestly anal:l,l7"a eon,-
. him no one could complain. But it was ofi t,g,,'oa. secret
to
coif
; for if, when the question of the Rigl f Polo go itttv
State for Foreign Affairs was, whether thisirshsPQrt4. ;
honourable exile, if, instead of submitting to t how, rueta
abroad, he preferred submitting to hard lab°4r3 I urn 11!) le
even by his own friends, when his fate tlepen et
I.
_lereibb
Chancellor Eldon, and when he exhibited the in I,..,oriation
instance of monstrous truckling, and of political tech" ,
I rise to declare that that is false." --( lemd eri° u .1
he had ever heard of— nd sotto i r
Mr. Secretary CANNING here interfered, a f 0 Orue
4
('hair, chair I) ..--
to Ores.
The SPEAKER said it was impossible for bias
00 ale
0 Sir,
the feelings of regret he felt, that persons of the
...T., Ago) ittli*e
racter of the two lion. Members ehould have been Plat rronina
situation so disagreeable. lie felt that he need hnhe
to
~,
Right Bon. Gentleman (Mr. Can that t„t le order'
which he had made use of, was totally, rePurl”aetine, it. .0.
convince him of the propriety of immediately retr Heiman '1
Mr. CANNING said that the Right Bon. he
• heed t le
terference was sufficient to satisfy hint that be Mad reretere lii.;
order of the House. It was sufficient for Ohl :e'n' overt"
hoped, to withdraw the offensive expression—the ': de'
could not recede from. hich 00,/,
..3
The SPEAKER then said, that the duty w going 0;
volved upon him would admit of' uncompronigc. the Oni'rthe
no time for consideration he must call wrnontsae .o..fie
assist him—lt was not fear him to remind tne resent, on
course proper to be taken in such! a s the Pas bad be
believed it was well known that such an eatlire°'°°
used must be recalled without any qualification- —try t° .se
• fall
Mr, Secretary CANNING said he should .belinnit l',
underghstliehedhisapdleasa
riugrhetotfo the house. -tilaepre :,stlietnin.iustail'ieilsat:pbrnot
resignation to, any censure it might inflict upon
Ti
of
.The SPEAKER, said he must then iroldore „ was
the-House substantially and eaettydy. , 'en, said "
.sag'
The CHANCELLOR of the E.XCH1:(10,1',,,, of hl s° Ls!
impossible to entertain a doubt as to the proPrieveo a°"the
gestion which-had fallen front the Chair. l'hereha }loose' lie
no doubt that, with reference to the orders oftt seine Mnseane
language in question was disorderly. At di ' sadng -as
uage
would ask the lion. and . Learned Gentleman, sPri'the 1,01, stud
Gentleman would to another—(Clieers)--whelheote 111)ietee
which fell from him was not highly irritatir+g f in that '
Learned Gentleman was in the habit. of speaking ...5410011 his
f ex)" '.es to er
with great eloquence, and with a strength 0 . :writrtlmeto,
to,
liar to himself. stied such terms as had been h, not Ine,,ot
Right lion. Friend, tetras of the severest relltr_ciiieter 11 ..,oi,
addressed to him an a Minister ; for in that eln'w,perso.:,oo
bear every thing : but addressed to him, as it w___,ooo,
_„,a
he feanxi.he should, at the moment, have exPT,..ile item r a
sentiments in language not very messore.-- eill'eraet..„,r 'title
Learned Gentleman would forfeit nothing lo__„ to eotoe_,,st
man, or as a Member of that House, if be i!ri: . lie tl,o7_l7t'te
language which had called forth the (Apses% have into' irti.
the lion. and Learned Gentleman never cm"
all 'ethic !„,,,,,ste
convey a personal imputation. They wlfh, inteinlitra",eled
table feelings ; and under the influence of vi,.'„c „nest b
language would sometimes escape 'Brut los ,
he c feel'
among them.ttitie file
„
than art ie .
The SPEAKER said, that the obeer „toe p ,esf
lor of the Exchequer led him to -, fear,,7lt was liTatall
difficulty was occasioned by_him.---(Not_ndui.ie„roed Trreessti°
ed that the language of the Honourable toi ,
not only L "...Roe;
applied to the Right Hon. Secreter,,ws;rersenaltY fol. aril
hi public conduct, hut- had, :soean!,'lt,t,le to WWI wort'
Ira such a case it was his (the .Speakstr'ih" s;,agined
he certainly should have done so; lino e

I

ty:
nt-

Ike

ie-
no
ed

ob•
the
and

not
but
d nut

0 sir,
Tao 1

gpre''
A ch -
tling
tlje
na
,essi°"

iti.,, in,
'ell the
rorc 1'1;
lent

bore such a construction. Ile now called upon the,llon. and
Learned ( lentleman to state, whether he had intended the words
to convey such is meaning. .: • - Mr. BR;OUGHAM rose in compliance with the call made
on his name from different parts of the House. 'He stated, ehat
he was now placed in a
very difficult situation. The Chair
had called, upon the Right Hou. Gentleman already to appolo-
gize as the offender--
Mr. TIERNEY rose to order.' He submited to the Chair,
that when the Right Hon. Secretary conceived the language of
the lion. and Learned Gentleman to be personally offensive,
he should have first moved that the words be taken down; and
then have called foe an explanation of them. But there would
be an end to any thing like debate if such an interruption as
that of the Right Hon. Secretary were allowed. It was in the
middle of a sentence, before any one could tell hoW much the
conclusion of it might qualify the first Member of it. •To call
now upon the lion. and Learned Gentleman fur an explanation,
when a timely and proper interference would have coMpelled
him to give it, was, he thought; entirely out of coarse. • The
expression of the Hight lion. Secretary had been. re-affirmed.
He,-for one, could assure the Right Hon. Secretary that he
thought there would be no imputation upon his honour if he
'would withdraw the expression he had used, in order to make
room for the explanation of the ' Honourable and Learhed
I 'Gentleman. - -
The SPEAKER said he hid understood the Right Hon. Sc.t rctary to say that he withdrew the expression, but not the sen-
timent. His endeavour was to bring abput that fair explana-
tion which would appear in a declaration that the language• of
the Ron. and Learned Gentleman was applied only to the ofil.
cial conduct of the Right Hon. Secretary.
Mr. Secrettny CAN'NING, after having maturely reflected
on the words which he had used, felt himself bound, whatever
censure the House might pass upon him, to declare that he
could not reeator yam a -single word that he had made use of.
Lord ARCH IBA 14D II *AMI uroN thought the rules ofthe
Houses° clear, that there was no misunderstandinyeliem. He
stizider,tioiilllittl that there was nothing in the case which could lead
ilionPourable 4:tit:liarel. lie, would suppose that tlieiwnoarndnaer ! ie
hi.. ,3
s i Nemec, had really been as objectionable as possible; and.
them he would ask, whether, even upon this supposition, the
Planguage of the Right Honourable Gentlemen could bejustified ?
ut when the words of his Hon. and Learned Friend hed not
been taken notice of at the time, it. now became the duty of the
Speaker to say who had been the rst to mak a breach of order. i After the first offender
had beenfi e made out it was his duty to
retract. Now he would in the present case called upon the
i Speaker to say who had been the first; and whether there be
I not an Order of the House--that whoever was the first to
pled tti corn-
init a breach of order ought not to be the first to make an ex.
on ? Then if hthe succeeding o
e retract, ffender ought
to do the same. _ Mr. r. BANKES rose with
pain to speak on this subject. But
he thought the Noble Lord in a mistake in - thinking that the
SPeaker did not call upon those who had been guilty of a breath •
elf order fbr an explanation ; for the Speaker had so called. He
(Mr. B.) was sorry that the Right Hon. Gent had not made that
~,Patlation, winch he could have (lane with perfect honour.—
the!ne flight lion. Gent. might have said that , lie way sorry tor
words of which he had made use. If the matter. was not
amongst!; it might lead to consequences of the most unpleas-
ant nature, and because they were so, lie "roved that both the
Gentlemen should be taken into custody.
•to take this course, because it was that Ile was induced,
e was usual.--
; It might be that the one or the other was wrong; and to find.
out who way so would be a matter of investigation, but till this
1 ~ were decided, he should move that both lie taken into custody ;
•a_nd he could not conceive that there could be .any other me.
et, t_liod.: ,The Honourable Gentleman concluded by moving that
5,.. Mr. Secretar
•tode, y' Canning and Mr. Brougham be teken into ens-
- , ' lir. Sericant ONSLOW seconded the motion.
,' AIL IVYNN must decline suorting the motion, though lie,
!.Treed with his Iron. Friend in till that fell from him, because
fie did not think the Rouse was in a situation to make the order
now Pr°Posed, until it had first decided 'that
uttered in contern t of the privileges' of the 'louse. lie assured the
II
cane unaffectedly
c, something had been
- . f the 406 . 4
!teamed , that he did not exact! rem.eotnnbertlitehiavtott,
l,alipaire, so far
the
.iatiocutsmetpinlet
• an •- Gent. but his ropres3l was, r ,
___,.
~i doubted!' trite that
his Hon. Gentleman was interruptete eeo _
as it went, was disorderly. ; but it it a J.,),n;
• he ti ad •
ctbdininsent e That interroption, he-joined
.ewas .a
disorderly act, but it was com-
Initted under circurn.stagr:ces which every one must see entitled
his Right lion. Friend to every indulgeuee.,
see any great diffieulty in the way of a lie really did not
&ample& explanation.
At all,evens, let what would happen in the t time,
the House would take care that the matter should norgo be-
yond that •House. He felt it to be a duty which they 'owed to
their constituents, to themselves; and' the freedom of debate,
not to allow that' either of the Alembers should leave the House
except in eustodye• until tl I • 1 •,' en their honour that the
ley Le lay
olion- should go no firther He thought that the explanation
his Right llonou'rable.•Frten'
thou '.l d was not sufficient. , Ile
~ e., n then that he was justified in asking as a favour froni
"le Honourable, and Learned Gentlemen that he would itate—
Mr. 13Rouei e, .
uti4.llle-.Not one word—
-I,Mr. WY NN thought that it would not be unbecoming in the
. on, Gentleman to. suite. to the House whether or not lie had
th. . to use ,
Intended the word in a personal sense. now ever, as
- 13 W" declined, he saw no other course tbr the tioitse to
adopt- eon! to demand a pledge from thoser Gentlemen that the
'hatterd not be carried firther.
Mr. ABERCRO3I WV thought that the question which the
' Bootie lied to Consider Was whether a breach pf order had been
the ccinit,llitted ; and this being ascertained, the next inquiry wits'
.pt.' oper apPlogy- had been made. With regard to
'e question. that there bad been a breach of order, he nought
d v?aa .admittell ; and this being the case,
would he thought the Goo 6
not do Its
duty, if it did not support its own, order. 'the
let of falsehood had been brought.
&Peened Friend by the Right Hon. Gentle Mun, and that
egaioSt his lion. and
Plvaaa breach of' order there could be no doubt. lie was of opt-.
ies. that the Ilottse should take care that,' no further proceed-.
i'!'phould take place ; and they would best do t1:1:; by a.;cer-
rthig who had been the first to Offend, and recommending to
inn id be tile. tint to explain. • • -
each. 'WILMOT had viewed the whole matter ae a:vectator,
such and Learn
he could give tin impartial opimon. If the Hon. and- Learned Gentlertian would Pay that the words of
.d °ill he halt made use were not. personal,, then • lie had no
'doubt but his Right Hon. Friend. would exlain . away the
'Times),! o is which had given offence. As for himself (Mr.
had viewing the matter as lie did, as a mere spectator, He
~no hesitation in Paying, that the words of the lion. and
ttetrned Gentleman did to him appear to have a personal appli-
e an ; he did not say that such was the intention of the lion.
sett_lrnatt, but still that did not alter the, impression they
the, impresiillll
74ietle upon him, and :to could not be presumed to affect.
If he had 'been tit the
...., !Welly have th"Y had made upon his Right Him. Frienil.—,
would
et . ti the situation of his Right Hon. Friend,. he
tt,ol. Friend had acted; and if he were in the situation of the
In the same manner as that. Right
tel e. and
,Learned Gentleman, he would haVe no hesitation in
~,hylng that he had not used the words in a personal sense ; he
d.itharthe House would declare who had been the first to
bred_
,le orders of the Ilouse.—Olean.)
0:211. jr; BURDETT could not concur in the view taken by
it 1), 1 t
ki'st," ti• Gentleman who had ittst sat dowii. The language
• wax no irritating.
because. it was personal, but because
lite ilred to affect the indivitlital to whom it was directeile-,
in hit
;mumble and Learned Friend had used no language,
fueetininton, which as a public man speaking of a public
Braless) Y, he wm not entitled to use. lf he (Sir t relicts
or the Ex‘'lte
ter,la or expose any act ot' the Chancelldr
tetsolial e leg it oughtnot not be taken as an, attack an his
°lvey character, but on his public station. They knew,
beer, ur? that the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite had
'3 Iteonve •
'. gulitY of a gross breach of 'oriler. Nothing could be
to ~,,}l,.i nient as Gentlemen making answer on'the moment
or as was said about them, instead of waiting . till the
hey fornis of the House permitted them to ' do so. But
n;ltes it was highly disorderly to ,interrupt any Mem.
bee emie COttne of his speech. If; as the Honourable, Itlem-
teo 1
as aiso
_a an spoke, had said, the expressions had struck him
haw heredi, he ought at the time to have pointed. it out, to
filet the words taken down, and then have called on the
thathe
lintai7tir, t° explain hie meaning. But, as the sentence was not
whet in n° one could say how it might have terminated, or
eluting- collectively the wordtr might have borne.. All
e._
slat embed to impress upon the. House was, that so fur as
it!'
_ter bad gmie, they should not fail to -put the saddle on
igtiiig it hose. It was admitted on all hands. that the - slight
"brezt,?ertlertitin opposite (Mr. (tanning)-had been guilty of a
withili3li ti
.9F.dee, and the House had first, lie thought, to deal
lik Awl .i.
'2llOl , --IeRT WiI..SON assured the House that in his opi-
-4.3 the eXPreseions which had fallen from the mouth of his
th7tend Leatned Friend (Mr. Broogham) were adilreseed to
elienftqfht Bon. Gentleman who had felt himself aggrieved by
in n hi'' official, character either as GoVerniirsGetieral of
e.... , ; or as Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. . Neither did
jettpnic that the interraption •of- the • ight---Hon-Gentleman
11;1,3114,4 httdire.cted to any thing but hn impression that the mean-
-Whet 1 „`t,ntion of the language in question was•the
entln- (bir It. Wilson) had•stated his view of it, ta be. 'That
'ttiir itt)i°ll-
affix made under• the, Jinn conviction of the mo-
-teleakill”ethe pression was personal, and not otherwise in.
tate- -irt dear t),,,With.thie view.of the -case, he lieg-ged leave
runt he theught the Right lion. Gentleman might, con.
;gym y' with -Iris; hermitr and feelings.s that:it was under
line
;ton that the language visas meant tube pereanal, thet he
;ton intr !..e'ipinio:-Which • had cant* forth the present discue.
41 h y
„loeulate as
tate j-,-(1: teary, hear I )—.I le- tendered. this. advice ;poet , delibe-
e 11 g a mt co of! tumour, he coascientiouslY declar.
gh consistently be adopted by the-Right Hon.

Gentleman. • • He could always reserve to himself the power of.
taking any course he might think fit according to the turn the' t
matter might take hereafteree-(Hear, hear!) • - • . . i
Mr. Secretary CANNING said, he rose to assent to the pro-
positinn• of the Hon.• Meniber.—(Hearn hear, hear !)—With
respect to the House, he begged to declare, art he had already'
done, that for the breach ot its orders, of which he had been i
guilty,_ be, wished to make everyeatonement in his power,. and
to. submit himself entirely to their guidance. He had further 1
to state, according to the suggestion of the Hon. Member, that
he had understood the Hon. and Learned Member for Win-
chelsea to apply to him imputations, which, if he should find
were not applied to him, then he would retract every thing he
bad said on this occasion. He had certainly understood that
he had applied language-to him personally, as haying made un-
becoming submission to a certain high 'character in the State„
for the sake of coming into office. That, charge, he conceived. I.
could not be applied to him in his official, but in his personal t
Character., • If in that conception,. how.ever,•,it should turn out
that he-was mistaken, he sincerely regretted the course he had.
Ltaken upon- it. - If that intention were avower!, be retracted:
nothing., ~ :
The SPEAKER intreated the atttention of the House whilst
be stated what appe.ared, to, him, to be the precise state of the
matter before them. lie considered that there were two dis-
tinct questions.under consideration. • The; one: was the-breach
of Order which had been committed, and upon this it was for
the House to consider whether the Right Ilone:Member who •
had been guilty of it :had made such an explanation as, ab-.
straetedly taken as regarding the House alotte, was satisfac-
tory. . The next point was, ti:P apprOleololl. of consequences.
which might arise from this disorderly-Conduet ;-. and Upon tlii.
he had only to say that it . was the duty of the Ilouse, if there
. ..
existed the sli.ghtest apprehension of consequences, to take
steps within its- own power to .prevent -.them. He ,the
Speaker) conceived that there were plain, simple, and io-
dispritable grounds, upon which there could be no Misap-
prehension of misunderstanding, , to call upon the House te ~
do What was in its own power to secure itself against impend.•
ing consequences. If, on the other hand, as was hie' own opi-
nion,- it should appear to the House, that the:matter be quet...
tion arose from a misunderstanding,- the. Ilouse would see,that,
there was no difficulty whatever in having the mieundefitanding'
cleared away, and all difficulty at once removed, lie then pro,
needed to state
.to the .Ilouse how these two pints had been
met. Ile regarded the violation-of the order of the House, as
undettlited ;'but-he also understood the It ight Hon. Secretary
had retracted conipltely as far as concerned the House. The
next point was the consequences likely to arise from the Right.
Hon. Secretary, understanding the language of the lion. and
',earned Aleinber to convey a personal offence. He had said'
that if no offence YRS meant, it was his wish that he should be
regarded as "rot baying intended to give any. Other Members
lied said, that in. then opinions no offence was meant, It was
unnecessary for hiM to add, that if if-had appeared to him that
any offence was meant, he should have stopped the lion. and
• Learned Member.—The point of consideration, therefore, was,
whether such offence .was intended to be giveoe and if so; they
would have to take steps to prevent its proceeding further.—
( lion, hear !)—lle (the Speaker) concluded, ofslourse, that
none
.was intended, , and it remained for the House to have
that opinion -confirmed. from the mouth of the LiOn. Member-
who. used .the words.—(Hear. heat !) , . . .
Mr. BROUGHAM. said, that if he were to consult his own
inclinations on theepeesent occasion, he should ask permission ,
of the House to pass .on to the remaining observations he was
,about to-make at the time. he was interrupted, .in one or two
more sentences. But underseending• that the Ilouse wished
him to explain, he would-proceed simply to remind the House
at' the state of ' the question as he regarded it then before them.
He begged, however, that the liouee would not • for a moment
allow its recollection to be deceived into the notion that - it was
he (Mr. Brougham) who had called upon the Right Honour-
able Gentleman (31r. Secretary-Canning) for ap explanation or
an apology—that mode of treating the case had not proceeded
from him. • The next ,question seas, not whether the Right
honourable Alemher wbe :had. been declared by the highest.
authority, backed by his own declar.ition, should be taken into
custody, but whether both,: including himself, against whom
there_ was no charge, sboull be taken' into custody also.- To
tbliemotionheintd not witnessed, not even; by signs or other-
: wise, any thing like assent. The power of the House was
undotititedly absolute, and- they might, if they thought -fit,
adopt this motion, which would; in his opinion, . be to act in
violation ,Of 'all principles of justice: -• He begged the House,
hpwever, to believe that he was as much' opposed to the first
part of the motion as to the last. He (31r. B.) was the last
Man in the House, =alto-ever:should be, to advocate the tak-
, ing a 31ember into custody for a phrase he might be pleased
to make use of in . adverting to .4.ll4li..uttered sentence.—
Now, as to the sentence itself' which he was required to ex-
plain, he-most unaffectedly declared to the House.that he was
utterly incapable of referring to the exact weals he had used,
Ile perfectly well remembered Whet he meant to say, and if he
had expressed his meaning,too personally, he professed not to •
have an over nice understanding to be able to distinguish in
such cases.; but that certainly was not-his intention. - ft .was a
mighty difficult thing to know what was personal and what not,
in -alluding to the political character ot. any - man. But lie
would tell die Mouse franklY what it was he meant to say, and
lease them and the'. Hight Hon. -Secretary to judge whether his
motives came within that line of personality, of which the rules
of that !louse forbede' the'•infraction. The opinion he had
adopted woo Jnatter of inference from facts, and he should be
glad to find that in his premises or-his deduction he was in
error. . The only wortheierhie -Memory as .having used, -were
the words " politiCal tergiver;stion " and those words, he
.thought, had stood .. out sufficiently iirominent in the con-
text to give
;a clue. to the intention of the whole phrase. It
Wits a strong expression, bat he hid , felt .strongly on ' the
subject on .which he used, them.,_it had beep many. times used
in that House, anti 'as he thought never more aptly applied.-
Rut that was. not all, ' He confessed he had a very strong feel-
ing on that passage in the life of the Right Hon. Gentleman to
• wifichhe had .referred. :AS -a-private individual he was bound
, to say that he .had never known him in any act or relation of
life mat did not da• bins honour.--(Hear, hear!)—But having
been. joined with him, in the seine pursuit-with regard to the
Roman Catholics of •Irelands he did feel most poignantly that
paneage in his life wherein it had; appeared to him he had aa-
eriticett awn- interests. lie had used that expression; there-
fore, •not, for party or factiops,• • and least of all for personal
purposes.•—(llear, bear, hear !)—lie had understood the Right
Honourable Gentleman • to have said in a .speech 'be niade.at
Liverpool, that he did not wish this question to he again
agitated in Parliament—that it' was his intention to support'
it if it did ; but that he wished it not to be brought lorviard.
4-Me might have been wrongly informed, but he had' reedit
to. in what appeared to be an
.authorised report.. This len-
toiage had been held at the precise moment when the Right
lion. Gentleman was to be either a Minister at home; or to go
to India aa.Governor.General e and when he. remembered the
ineteeof the Cabinet on this subject, and the precise opinions of
the Lard Chancellor in that Cabinet, to whom he (Mr. B.) who
Was also politically Hostile, 'he 'could 'not repel the-conclusion
he had stated in the . objectionable expression. It .was under
that impression, and with the• view of transferring it to. the
Ilouse, that he had used the
.expression In question—a strong
expression, ; certainly, ~but if tOo, strong for she orders of the
Reuse', he most readily aptilegiesd, although it was not too
strong for- his feelings. But he had besides imputed to die
Right Honoineble Gentleman's change in his feelings as re.
garded the Roman Catholics. - -lie had judged his motives
from - his outward conduct, from :which alone he could know
them; anti, as he conceived, was entitled to deduce them. The-
Itight Honourable Gentleman had since the period to which he
• had alluded, became -a Minister, and, as it was called, the
manager of that Uousc, and' upon all those circumstances put
together, he had thought- himself justified in attributing to him
truckling to the Lord Chancellor. - Ile knew it was wrong to
-attribute motives; and- from whatehe. could gather from the.,
;Right Hon. Gentleman, it appeared he was wrong on the pre- '
sent occasion. Ile was sorry if be has wrongly made such a
:charge in endeavouring to express his opinion of the ground of
, conduct which he could not but regard as a death-blow to
. the hopes .of the Roman Catholics ,of Ireland. But he ex-
pressly declared he had not' used it from
_party, and still lees
frwaL personal motives.—(.hearehearl)—lie could say no more
to satisfy the House, anti he must leave the Right iloM Gen-
tleman himself to 'judge, of the :`rest.-- Howevever dispotteil he
might be, he could go no fur Vier after the expression which fell
• from the Right Hon. Gentleman when last he .addreised the
Howe. An exression that he bad alien used completely
stopped his-mouth-unwillingly he admitted,. but hoivever de.
sirous he might bes it was impossible, he could proceed further
, under the declaration that it' he did not tie se, the offensive exS
prension would he repeated.—(Hear, heari)
Mr. PLUNKETT said a few words, but in so low a tone of
; voice as' to be-inaudible in the •Gallery. .;
Mr. Secretary ,PEEL considered that there was no necessity
to say any thing more,' in order to the intisfactory-settlement of
• the, matter with perfect honour to all parties- ;His tight llon.
Friend in a ninment.Of heat had made use of an-Objectionable
, word. The Von.-Member for Southwark; in -such cases an
authority of the highest description, and a man of higlehonottr,
, suggested antler these circumstances a course, which his Right
' Honotirable,"Friend 'immediately acceptetL Ills -Right •-liOn.
Friend had said that- if thellon 'and- Learned Member meant
, a-personal imputation, anal they all knew: the meaning of that,
then he did not. retract; but it' he did • not, he readily and
Willingly recalled all he had said....• Upon this the' Honour-
able
notlie riendat 14:4e,
lei:lidagapnfeotrlrwetrnomalnit9.l..
ct;.
riail
eideiui nl
hallsubstance,thisai,ciih ‘a,.
re. ye
of
that
itrtl
y J,ie
trucklingt didt)
4t
• in speaking of him, It was in his public character,, in the
, exercise of a-privilege, which he thought he had a right-to. As•
, to this Particular point he could only sayeabat Ins-Right Hon.
, Friend -had been completely ; tnisrepresented. to the, Hon. and

less apply than to his conduct on the occasion alluded to. Pn-
der these circumstances, he did hope the. house would See that
it had gone far enough in this matter, having attained, the de.
sired object.—(Hear !)
Mr. BA 'LIKES then signified his readineskto withdraw his
motion.

Mr. TIERNEY said he was sure after what had passed; it
would be satisfactory to the House, before it dismissed the mat-
ter altogether, if the Gentlemen would have the goodness to say
that they would think no more of it.
Mr. becretaryCANN IN G readily gave the Pledge required,'
in saying, he would think more of .
"Mr. BROUGHAM rose with pleasure to' follow the Right
Hon:Gentleman in the same words he had himself used.He
assured him and the House he would think no more of the
matter(leer !)-LThis was-not the tirwtime- they had both
been embattled in political hostility against each ,other, and if
ritme of it remained in the breast of the Right-116m Gentleman,
he assured him none remained in his.—(cheers.)—leaving thus
disposed of this subject, one at all tittles- interesting to the
House, hut which he thought occupied more ofits time• than it
deserved, were he. to listen to his own 'feelingii, he should not
go on with the question out of which ithatr originated. He
could not, however, do otherwise than address his Right Hon.
Friend the Attorney-General for Irelatidplr.-:Plurikett)4 his
Right Mon. Friend next to him, and all- upon. that Bench, as
well as those 'behind -them, Who' felt sincerely 'pledged to the
queStien, • to:warn them, that in - abandoning the cause that
night, they were dealing With edged toot:. However, -by in-
sincerity, the Roman Catholics of Ireland might Inave been be-
trayetl,„ he (Mr. Brougham) would not betray them—he would
not betray the interests. of Ireland-. he would' not present to-
them the same spectacle as those who, out of office, were zea-
lous in their cause and who, from unqueithanableamitives at
leaSt, when in office sheweil symtorns, of inditference. lie
called upon the advoCates of the measure to take example
froM' the career of-the Abolition of the ,a-slave Trade: What
would have been the fate of that question, if his revered Friend,'
• the Member for Yorkshire, had trailed, year after year,: •to
bring it forward, because the Minister of the tiak,, who had
One., heartily supported,- all at once abandoned it'? If languae
such as they had heard that-night had then been .used, would'
that great and lamentable man, Mr. Fox, and Lord Grenville,
have carried it eventually.? They did'ssot. make •it
a Cabinet question, but virtually it became such in their hands.
They did not count noses in making an Administration about
it, making half one was and half another. And when the mi-
serable wreck of the slave vessel went down _in that House,
amidst the astounding cheers of all the real friends of humanity,
clinging to its miserable remains, and hound for ever to its rig-
ging, were.soinesixteen, who appeared in ,site division. in
fa-
vour of it, and amongiit whom was a predeeesser of the Right
lion.. Gentleman now.-called the 'illannager of that House.—.
(Bear!)—To abandon the emir that night for the reason given,
was just as -absurd blundering as it would be in a man-having
half built a house, should pull it down because a rat had got
into it. He (Mr. BrOugham) eared not for - the vermin' of the
raising superstructure, he would go on with the building, as he
r:eammended to the staunch supporters of the Cathcilic Ques-
tion to do that night.---(Hear .
Mr. HUME scarcely thought it necessary to tell the House
that he did not leave- it on a light occasion. . Yet. it was his in-
tention to do so if this question was brought forward that night.
Tl 4 Right Hon. Secretary (Mr.- Canning) on former debates
on this subject, had always declared that the vital interests of
the 'Emfdre and of Ireland required that it should be made -a
Cabinet question. .Yet • had he accepted a seat in a divided
Cabinet. If he were to leave this Important question to go
loose .in the way it.was at present, the vital interests. of• the-
=airy would indeed stiffer. He (Mr. Hume), however,
would not change, as others had done; and if the question 'was
brought on in such a way, he would leave the House rather
than give it his support.
Mr. R. -31 ARTIN was sure that a divided Cabinet on
.this
Pueition was snore agreeable to the divided population'of
rotestants and, Catholics in Ireland, than a Cabinet united to
carry the question upon any but its own merits, lie thought,
however, as flow Gentlemen chose not to support 'the.question
this year, for the sake of leaving those who would support it in
a minority, he advised hbfflight'llOn.. Friend not to bring it
forward this Session leaving those Honourable Gentlemen the
triumph' of a defeat.
Mr. SPRING RICE was sorry that any detriment to the.
Catholic. question should nroCeed frOm that side of the house.`
The major part of the Opposition of England had always been
known as the undeViating uncorrupted friends of the cause. If
there;wereto be but a miserable minority of two,-the Irish Oen.
tlemen would be found in their places. No matter what name
was given' to the question—whether sessional or wearisonie,
truth in the long run must prevail. If he were not to have any
other opportunity of discussing it, he would then say, that the
present state of Ireland was a stronger argument. in favour of
the measure than any that could be 'drawn from history, or any
other source. ,

Sir JOHN NEWPORT considered that on the passing of
the Bill about to be proposed, rested the' happiness of the Em.
lie trusted the Right Hon. Coffman would proceed
with' it, in spite of•the secession of Ihin. Members.
Sir ROBERT HERON declared his intention .of giving his
humble stippoit to the cause Whenever brought forivard. •
The Petition was then ordered to be laid on the table, and,
on the motion of Mr. COKU, to be printed.
IRISH., CATHOLIC CLAIMS. •
At the moment when the Speaker called on Mr. Plunkett,
several of the leading Members on the OPpiesititei Benches
' rose and left the House, among whom we noticed Sir F. Bur-
dett, flu.? Earl of Sefton, Lord Folkestone, Edward Ellice, Esq.
' Sir R. Wilson, J. C.. Ilobbouse, Mr. Hume, 110n..11. G. Ben,
net, Sir R. Fergusson, Peter Moore, Lord F. Osborne, S. Bar-
rett, Thomas Cseevey. and Mr. Coke.
Mr. PLUNKETT said, , that it hail been his intention
to have presented a petition• that day from some of the most
considerable Catholics in Ireland, bort Ice. was rprevented, in
consequence of some unforeseen informality. lie begged;
however, to be considered as 4uthorival to the sante extent as
though he had presented it. He never in his life had ad.
dressed that House under circunuo-ances of so much, dial,
culty. He found he had to sustain the cause of all the Roman
Catholics, not only against its usual opponents, but against its
ordinary supporters. The serious loss of those Gentlemen
who had so ostentatiously withdrawn themselves was not so'se-
rious as the deep wound inflicted by the speech of the Right
lion. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Tierney), and the contluet of
those who foretold the failure of this measure because of its Ad.
vocate. Let the cause be what it would, it must be condemned
by such a course. He however was not afraid of being thought
insincere in the cause by those whose interest it. most nearly
affected. It was impossible for him not to feel surprise at the
course pursued by those who had heretofore wished to be con-
sidered the friends of this question. He was really now at a loss
to know how the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite could furnish
himself with a plausible reason for *tying this question was not
now entitled to their,support; because it was in the hands of
decided Administration. The Hon. Gentleman had supported
it from the year 1807,' though it had been in the • hands of a
divided Administration. Notwithstanding this circumstance,
it was seen that the cause was daily gaining ground. how,
then, could the Right honourable Gentleman reconcile it to
himselfas a patriot, to act a different part now from that which
he had previously taken, because the queition was brought for.
ward on the Alinisteriel side of the House, instead of coming
from that aide on Which the Right lion. Gentleman' took his
'seat. The cause of 'Catholic Emancipation, had always, in his
opinion, been too high for party. It was one which lifted them
above all petty considerations and. party interests. lie was
happy to say, his having. come over from the opposite aide
of the House had not iojured hint with the Roman Cathci-
lies of Ireland. if his memory did not fail him, the Right
Honourable Gentleman, who taunted` him 'on this subject,
had performed the figure of passing from one side of the House
to the other and back again, as gracefully-Mid as frequently as
any Gentleman in it, lie did not say-the Right Honourable.
Gentleman could not give very satisfactory reasons for his con-
duct; but.if he IMr4 Phinkett). webs now to enter into an ex..
planation of those by which he himself had been actuated, he
thought he should be able to make out its good a. miens the'
Right Hon. Gentleman himself could. Words which he had
used in a former 'debate had beentvery sarcastically brought
thriven' on this occasion. At the period referred to he had ex-
pressed himself as he felt; with a strong impression on his mind
as to the manlier in which the Administration of that day had
conic into power. lie might, however, retsina the Right Hon.
Gentleman, that he (Mr. Plunkett), had held'a situation simi-
lar to that which he now held, under atlivided Administration
or which that Right Honourable Gentleman himself had
formed apart, which Administration bad been willing to de-
fer the question, and had finally'bnly brought forward in fa-
vour of the Roman Catholics a measure of partial relief. When
he joined the present Administration lie hail been' induced to
do so from conviction that those Alernhertinf the :Cabinet who
advocated the claims of the Catholics were sincere in their
efforts to gain the required concessions. The Right
Gentleman did him too much honour in supposing that his
accession to the Administration WAS likely to Tooke any ins_
varied difference to the Roman Catholics, if his joining the
Atlininistration would have Injured them he'sliould not stave
been seen where he then was. , He hell, however, made sacri-
fices in the cause which the Right Honourable Gentleman ought
Vint to forget, Which savid'him from the liability of being put
down by assertions like those now made to his prenulice. He had
perhaps detained the House: too long on this subject. Ho hid
our to explain to the house_ why IA had not brought the ques-
tion for Ward last year,_ and why he- brought it forward on the
present occasion, as there were not wanting those who thought
him in both instances wrong. lie had conceived It right to
exercise his own judgment in selecting the time for bringing
on this debate, and if because some ten, or twelve Gentlemen
chose to prognosticate failure, and to pronounce the funeral

oration of cause before it had been entertained, he did not
thinleithis duty to yield:tie:their tepiesentationa. Last „year a
number of Gentlemen, whose sincerity he could not dotibt/
and sinitingibini the-Right Heel Gentlemen, wereof ppinio
the suhjectedeghteto have been then ,brought forward. Had
this opetiOn bcten unanimous' he might have= given way; but
such -ngs„ lieinXtlitocaee, he lead felt himself ,at liberty to exer-
cise his own discretiOn. The Right Ilona tientlemae • who fore
men) hatUchargei of this greet geestion, did not call the etten-
Lion of the House to it every year; and, 3fter the very elae
borate'discussion ;which it, underwent 1821, he (Mr. Mine
kett)i thought it might he advantageous not to agitate it in
It had bee/lAD:4,Mb), Others, and it was his 'opinion;
.that the claimaof the Roman Catholics might be sometimes
advantageously suffered to lie by to afford time for deliberation,
On the question itself his opinions had' not beealightly formed.
They had been formed when he had not the Shadow of a motive
fot takingthe course he had-preferred: - They had grown-out pf
instincts from which he could never part, bad been strengthen-
ed by reflection and enquiry in the course of professional and
liberal study, and _confirmed by the experience of a 3Seyeare7
residence in Ireland.' 'The 'result Was, he felt convinced that
the'claiths of the Catholics ought to be conceded as a water (If
constitutional right, and further, he-Was convinced the measure
was expedient,: and! abSolutely. necessary. , no did not mean by,
this, that if it were not carried there would be any danger of a
separation of the two` countries,' nor &the mean to say- that: its-
rejection would prove the immediate cause of disturbances in,
Ireland. 'TheßonitinsCatholice in that part of the ,Empire'were
too sensible:of the benefits they received.—(Here toe noise
which had for Someiimesikeealled in the. House became-991611d
that the Right Hon. Gentleman could with difficulty be heard el
He said he was aware of the disadvantages of rising at that
late hotir of the night, but he-must throw:himself. on , the ip-
dulgence of the House while calling a their attention to subject
which, t-hough lees-interesting than that which had just passed
eyer, was certainly not less important. He believed die Catholics
were too sensible of the progress which they hid made to be
likely to rush into any excesses in consequence of a further
poetponement of those concessions which as'British subjects
they had a right to demand. He believed -it was admitted by
every intelligent' man, that ultimately:the question must be
carried, or instead of a state of security and tranquillity, we
must remain in one of ceaseless watchfulness and feverish eigi-
lance: in peace or war our resources would be weakened,
our .consequende in the scale of Europe Would be diminished,
and we should be deprived of all the benefits which must re,
stilt from union and concord. Whatever consequence Mei.:
nailer - attached. to this -measures: was considerably increased
by the circumstances of the tithes. The declared sense of
the House of Commons had been given in favoids of a Bill
similar to that which he wished to introduce, Besides the Bill
of 1821, a second Bill had been passed faVourable to Catholic
ethaucipstion. Twice the settse of that House had been 'de—
clared in favour of such. a change of system as he was now
about to recommend, for the Billof 1822 did not confine it-
self for admitting. Catholic Peers into Parliament, but it ex-
tended 'for 'Making 'Catholies• eligible to the Peerage.- The
numbers of the Roman Catholics had, on some. occasions, been
much exaggerated ; and Vibe Bill which he wished to bring in
should pus, lie was-confident that- the youngest man in the
House would not live to see twenty Catholic Members in it._
So convinced were the Roman Catholics of this, that they would
net object to a limitation of the number of Catholics to be, ale
lowed to sit in. Parliament. Ile should not propose a limitation
because it would involve a deviation from principle for the
purpose . of meeting a danger which he held to be chimerical ;
but' if any -other Mernhee should introdoce•such a provision
into this 1)01, he should not, if it were adopted, consider the
measure to be lost. The Bills which had been paseied'hy that
flow in conformity whit ,his views of the question, had never
been returned to it. \Mat arguments had been opposed to
them elsewhere, it was not for .biro to guess, but it had gone
forth
.to the world that they had been found opposed to the ge-
neral system of the country, as established by the Referniation
and the. Revolution. To tins point he proposed to apply him-
self; in Order visitor that such was not the true description • of
those Bills. But first he must ofler a few words on the etthj;,ct
of securities. Some contended that securities were necessary,
Others that they were unnecessary, and a third class of persons,
not saying they were necessary, availed themeelves of the cir-
cumstance of their not being given tee oppose Catholic emanci-
pation. He was of opinion,that securities were necessary—end
so much did he fed this, that he should disapprove of the peese
ing of the Bill which he desired to see carried; if these could.
not be obtained. Sodie had objected to the measures brought
forward, for the relief of the Roman Catholic* on the supposie
tion that Catholic Dissenters would be relieved from disabi-
lities which would still' be allowed to press on Protestant
Dissenters. lint this was not the fact. His Bill, if carried, .
would only relieve Roman Catholics from dieabilities of which
Protestant Dissenters had not. to complain; and put them on
the same footing with other'Dissenters froM the Established
Church. Some argued, that if such a Biller assed, the repeal
of the Text and Corporation Acts must inunediately follow.
The 'Test-Act had been repealed in Ireland for forty yea's, but
the Roman Catholics had -not any the more for that been re-
lieved from their disahilitiee. 1k therefore insisted that; 'bes
tiVfell the measure of Catholic Emancipation/ and the Test
and Certioritidn Acts, there was no necessary ceneectitin.—
But while he stated this, he would -not be eo dieingenteme
as to conceal his sentiments en those subjects. If ever the
'repeal or the Tied :and Corporation • Acts shottld be- pro.
posed in that House, he would give such a .measure his en-
tire and hearty 'Support. —(llenr, hear, bear !)—lle would
do so because he. thelighe thie was doe to the exemplary man-
' ner in which the 'dissenter's had conducted thenitedees. The
Right lionotteableGentleman proceeded to itheweitat the Inca-
sure for which he was the advocate, was not inconsistent with
the principles Of theelleformation. The repeal! of the stet of
Supremacy was KIR to be at war with the Reformation. It
was true that from the period of the Reformatioa we were to
trace the precept state of the country, and the rights, privileges,
and duties which littiched- to the Crown. lie; however, denied
that the exclusion of any. class of subjects from that Repreten-.
tative Body, rested on any thing bum Special Enactmentiee.e
1 It was then to the Statute, Law alone .that they were to coddler
'those exclusions of which the Catholic% complained. The Act
of Uniforthity passed itidhe time of. Elizabeth was intended;
in the first place, to make the Protestant religion the religion
cot the State: The second Orilla* which it enforced Was the
potting- down of all other religions, and to ,prevent the public
exetcise of them as cootuthattiotie. t The third object of the A&
'tease to distinguish between Catholics well effected to the State
and those who were disaffected, in order to exclude the latter
froni thotte heitiours which- it was in .the power of the 'State- to
Confer. The putting down of all religions but that of the State
had been attemeiteCduring a period of nearly WO years, and
had been finally abandoned. It wan unnecessary to inquire
into the causes which had led to this, bet the principle had'
been given op when. the law against miceearits were repeal.
ed. The second principle contended ler atilie time of the Re--
formation.of winch 'hel had spokee, ,did,not appear to him to,
be intended to exclude Dissenters from office or from Parlia-
ment. Dissenters, flit one hundred and, tufty years aftet
Reformation; were admitted to both. Theethird principle, that
of deciding between the well-atfected and the theeffected, was
said to have been opposed by the oath prepared in the measure
of 1821.. It appeared to hint that the Oath of Supremacy had
never been framed for the. purposes which were commonly
supposed, , to have been contemplated by those with whom it
Originated. His view of the Oath of Supremacy-he supported
by referring to several documents. The firm aft these to which
he should refer was the title of thaAct of Supiemaey, Which
was entitled " An Act for restoring to the Crown its ancient
jurisdiction over the State, Ecclesiastical and Spiritual, and
abolishing, the exercise of
,all foreign . authority within. this
Realm_ , as repugnant to the State.' Th's Proved' the'Act to
have been intended to claim for the Crown tinted powers which
had been assumed by the Pope. Ile hOWever maintained,- rot
the authority of various documents -to which-he-referred,. that
the oath was intended to be the test of loyalty, and not of reli-
gion, Mid not to exClude Roman Catholics froth sitting in Pare
liament, or, from holding office under the Crown. Ile com-
pared the oath of 1021 with the Oath of Supremacy, and ape
pealed to the. House if thelatter were opposed to the former.—
The object of the Act of Elitabeth was not to exClude, but to
comprehend Catholics, by- framing. ate oath.which it, loyal CA-.
thohc might be able to take. Fronk reading Hume, Rapin,
and-Burnet, it-would be.found that in the,ragns of „lames 1.-
and Charles I. the _Catholics were admitted to all offices un:
del the Crown: Thiesit might be said, had been perhaps done
by the dispersing power of the Crown; but it was not sosee
corded, nor wee 'it so admitted by'the The' 27th Of
Elizabeth disabled Jesuits and Itornati Catholic Priests ip pare
denial. cases from holding office. Frith these penalties these'
were exempted ;who welt the oath of xepremacy. _lle would
ask, was it likely, that the Legislature would have proffered
such an exemption if the oath had been thought such thet--no
Roman Catholic could take it ? The law remained such
at he had deicribed it with tespeet to Roman embolic%
down to the tithe of Charles 11. when it became necesesery,
es it was thtiught to exclude Roman. Catholics fitim Pat-
Lament. , This -was not because the Roman Catholics were
then disloyal. They were not disloyal.. There was at that
' Period no Pretender, and no Jacobites, but the King himself
hod become prime traitor to the State, anti loyalty tohim was
stir hingerloyalty to the-Constitution. The oath of -supretpocy
mut not in the Act of the idth Charles 11. It wait, however,
necessary to guard against the pewee% formerly exeeeised by
the Pope; who hal claimed the right ..of excommunicating the
King, and had exercised authority over the subjecto of the
State. The powers once claimed by the Pepe, the Catholies,
.now disowned. Ile was elude to de so by the oath in the hit
Bill which had been heaughtin
nevelieve thd Cetholie
body from the disabilities elflike Which they laboured.- The
object of the oath,' which some had' Bald no Roman Whelk
could conscientiously take, was mash as he had describtxt

it to be. All the researches which had been made in con-
aectiou with this subject, had produced but., one. solitary. case
in which the head of the Roman Catholie Chiirch could act hi
oppOsition to the' litti of 'the.State.; Persons or that degree of
consanguity, which admitted of their marrying without offend-
ing;the laws of the Protestant Church, could not marry by tte
laws of the. Roman Catholic Church. • 'Finein,thli circumstance
in a particular case where the. restoration 'of conjugal rights
.might be decreed by our laws, the laws of the Roman Cathokee
Church might oppose it. But those laws could not deny the vat*
lidity of the marriage, nor the legitimacy of the children of such
Marriage; nor could they do any thing that might affect the rightseeee
liberty, or property of the subject. They could merely eseltida
the 'parties from :participation in the rites of their Church. =.
The power of the Pope was no longer what it used to be.
devouring lion, as it had been called n the Oath of
'supremacy `was irathed, had become me • • o:e
time, had. in tact been tendered utnoc
Whatever banger might he supposed . • , - ,
.which the Pope, as head of the -Catho: . se
cise in his.reahn, that danger• enieted ie. a, great a dee
gree as it could rationally be expeee.e. to t )Cst after the
claims of the Catholics had been grented. If the Getliollt•
Were dispoSed to trifle with his conscience, w:at could peevene
trim from misconstruing the .oath • which lit! AC IS now called
upon to take. If he were honest, the to be
posed to him would blind hint ; it dish-flees:, .Zll at pre.
sent profilired would not. lie compleined : :e injustice
of supposing such depravity ,on the' part part e 7 -.ee Roman Ca-
tholics could reconcile them, to the to which it
Was. presumed they were equal.- While on this iiuttk....z.
read a letter addressed .by Lord Burheigh to Qtteen
zabeth, in .533, in "which that celebrated titetesmar,
mil to her Majesty the propriety of relaxirig in favour ofte
Catholics, and set forth that if it were presumed that the R, .
man Catholics would dissemble and equiVoeate while taking.
an oath, anti seek-absolution from the Pope, he might in 'ht-,
same manner dissemble, equivocate, and sack absolution wilt -
regard to others, which were then supposed to secure the REQ..
testant interests. Such had been the opinion of Lead Burleigh, •
who was a sound Protestant and an honest Steteeman. But it
should seem that we grew wiser as the world grew oider, ar cl
after 200 years had elapsed since the sentiments he had juet.
road lied been, written by Lord Thirleigh, it was Naiad out that
it was in vain to think of placing contiaknee Jr, the inte.
grity of a I,oman Catholic. If such an idea could be en.•
tertained with justice:--if it were thought the CithAiCs OUgh;
to continue to experience such treatment, he should be Elise
posed to say to the. Ilouse---" Go hack to }'cur Penal newee,..
But if they did so, he would certeinly advise them not to reit,-
due, but to exterminate the Roman Caliollee. If they age ha
succeeded, in binding the strong man, the wisest course would
be, not to cut off his haine which might grow again., but to cut
ofrhis head, which would never grew any more.—(Hear !)—lie
now proceeded with reluctance to notice the arguments drawn
front the Revolution Against Catholic Emercipation, . Thera
was no greater mistake than that which was fallen into by thoea
persons who supposed the itevollititm and/Settlement had any •
thing to du with the system established by the :nth and Stith
of ITharles the Second. So. far from this beiag the case the
Revolution was at right angles with that. system. The feet
Was, Charles the Sectind had
.ceased to be the protector ee
the State.. The Crown had formed the pro'iect of ov,:turii,.
ing the established religion. The Acts of the 2.501 and "dihit
of that reign were not intended to make the l'hrene Made-
mentally Protestant, ' but were framed' as a subititute for
'such protection. It was ' obvious that such. a sytitem could
not be lasting. The Parliament in effect said to the King,—
" We cannot trust you, but we will keep vou un a:a
Throne, yield you dutiful obedience, but we will not suffer
you to change the religion of the State." The first ineti-
sure of the Revolution was in direct opposition to :the system
of Charles 'the Second. It altered the law by making the
Throne fundamentally and unalterably Protestant. Ring
William's Parliament altered the Oath of Supremacy, and
proposed to repeal the Test and Corporation Acts. It was
ntit true that at the time of the Revolution; a system
j.•
of just' anti enlightened toleration was secured.' By the
laws then enacted, the Roman Catholics were shut out
from almost all the rights which belonged to Members of civi-
lized society. Instead of finding theniselves relieved by a
system of.snlightened toleration, tiles, were the victims of is
cruel persecution. The Throne was at that period made At:-
alterably Protestant, and it was prOvided. that none hilt a
Protestant should be King of these reelms, that no hostility
towards the Protestant Church might froM that time.forWard
be apprehended from the wearer of the Crown. The peried
of civil and religious liberiy did not eon:tote:ice till
and why should a, system of improvement not go on ? The
Revolution only brought in constitutional liberty, and the ii:-
tention of the founders was to promoto-religiuus libferty. It
Was said Mr.: .Locke did not allow toleration to the Roman Ca-
tholics. That writer asserted that whilst they follow foreign
authority they could not be good subjects. Would any man
say the Roman Catholics of die present day were not gaol
subjects ? They were good subjects ; and if so, what becameof the authority of 11.1 r. 4)40 Could they find on the'authb--
rity of any writer that good subjects ought to be deprived of the.
benefit of the Co eistitution ? silo. Justine Blackstone aaid tit
civil magistrate had nothing to do With Rornan CathelicS, whilst
they contented to ',the laws. They might enjoy their laded..
genres and purgatory, if 'they did not aeknowledge the authei-
rity of a foreign Power. It' they did, they were not to be
treated likeegoed subjects.' Was it twesible to soy. gee
lions of people were bad subjects I' If that really was Iljey.ais.,
thee ot4;lit to give up' all dependence on their defenilices',. And look
at a large portion of ,the'ropulatiott with siiSpicion
doubt. With respect to Scotland, it was true titer ' Sio;ch
bill disabled Roam Catholic from being elected. Whilst the
seenien etiated, Catholics were shut out, and if any
Scotch Aleuther would move to relieve them in that respect, hu
should he happy to, support the measure. 'fluty-might 'heal
with that law which lie called electien-law, without infrioging
the Act of Union.. The . Right Hen. (lentletifrin gilled, ispon
the House to reject the idea of danger front tite.atitnission: of
`persons with fixed religious principles to: the Legielteure.—
There was danger in admitting Atheists, and men who protes-
- religion without feeling any,. bat there could be none in
the admission of Roman Catholics who acted tinder a strong
sense of moral obligation. The Honite would do well to Nil-
. eider that the privileges. of the Constitution.: were within time
reach amen without religion, and withheld from a large portion
of religious persons, devoted to the'dutiei of good subjects.—
The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by thoving--" That
th;ft Haase do resolve itself into a. Committee of -the whole
House, to eonsider the sMte of the laws by which oaths and a
declaration must be taken as a' qualification,for the exercise of
civil offices, •by his 'Majesty's Roman Catholic' subjects, aod.
whether inmay he expedient to remove such restrictions front
Roman Catholics."
• After the motion had been read from the. Chair, a -loud and
le
general cey of " Question ! Question. was misled.
• elle. t i. BANKES addressed,the House, aniwith some def.
ficuby obtained 13 hearing. Ile. could not help feeling that
dangee,was to be found under the -Right Hon. Gentleman's
motion. The body of .Prottetatit Clergy was tleifilY intereStA
in the question. If Roman Catholics were once admitted to
Legisiatton, they would -contend that their Clinreh Was" The
tight Church, and wish to overthrow the Protestant Estab/ish-
m2nt. It had been saul they had gone too far in cooeSsions,to
the Roman Catholics to.recede. He did' not see the strength of
that argument ; if they eeeild not go back they *,:vittkstaml.
still. There was danger in gi7ing these securities Which
our ancestors he'd very clearly Purchased,. and when, they, woeie
told to despise danger, it was like telling a Man to unroof his
house, and break his windows when tie storm was ragirtg. 'T'he
lion. Member most strenuously opposed theemition.
Mr. W. BECHER vels' el to say a ft w Wards, in Which. b
contended strongly that although the etliwts of the herd Lieu-
tenant might do IMICIfto restore harmony,' complete and, per-
manent tranquillity could only be given to Ireland by, this bill,
'which gave equality of right...l'4nd privilege' vu all parties: itseas
the trite and only remedy ter Orangetstne aid the other eiriralty
which Ireland was now constantly athictial.—(" Adjourn, '•
" question," " withfre,W.")
Mr. LAMBTON4 with some difficulty; Obtained
such was the impatience of the. House, while he stated that, in
not giving his vote in this instance for the Catholic eleiros, it
was -not to be 'understood that be hail ire thettlightest degree _
changed his opinions as to their justice; he thought the whole.
proceeding upon this occasion. nothing lalowapT has elmswie
hare-far-0
mockery and a -giVSII SteltlSlOri Wethe
Roman Catholics of Irellintl, and me this account he would not
! in any way countenance it..--( Hear !)
The question was again loudly called for, and steal-0;0' were
ordered .te withdraw. A considerable tirtiecliips4l !dire the
Gallery Wag tletred, daring which the Members 4t-fe most
$ anxious to come to 'decision. '• '

After our exclusion we understand the question was put, to
adjourn.the thihate till Friday. T umbhe ners were.—
Aye* -
Noes -
Majority
A very stormy discussion then took puce, with closed viovrs,
and tiw 01titnately divided upon*.the amendment,
this House do tow adjourn."
For the Amendment
Against it

3.137,

Aigibrity foe the Adjourninent
By this division the question is virtually loci. The Wine
adjourned at HALr4iter o'Cr.o4.

So great has,been the demand. for seamen at
this part, that th-eir wages have advanced to 4L,
anti 4(. Ws. per,month, in vessels to Brit sh
Ainerira.—( Lkerpoot .Ith:eraser.)

PRICE a
THIS I)Ait AT

UL M( Stock
per Gent. Red. 75fi
3 per Cent. Cons. 7611
31 per Gout fig
4 per Cent. f 9,1 d
I. New 9Ol
ti der Cents. 1797
Bank hong Ann. ...19 7.l6ths
Imp. 3 per Cents.

F STOCKS

ONE O'CLOCK.
India Stock
India Bonds 34s,
South Sea Stock
Old Annuities
Ex. Bills l7 15
Ditto Small
Bank for Act.
India for Con. Acct.
Cons. for Acct 76

MICE or FOREIGN STOCKS tx LONDON, Aram 18,
AT ONE O'CLOCK.
Five per Cents. 83.
Six per Cents. 00.
Aur.sian Five per Cents. (Metallic) 00.
Dim) New 75.
_
Neapolitan, f Five per Cent. Bonds, 72.
4 Scrip, 00.
Austrian Five per Cents. (Metallic) 00,
Five per Cent. Bonds, 00.
Spanish New Ditto, Ini.
Scrip, 00 disc..
Prwsian ,(. Five per Cont. Bonds, (hi.
1 Ditto New, 801.
Danish Five per Cent. Bonds, 84.
"Oa - , 68.
!C/tAtnntislo .Six per Cent. Bonds, .64.
reertivian New Loan, 00.
f Bank Shares £2l ss.
Air/witan ) Six per Cent. 90-98.
1 Five per Cent. 9151-97.
lertiree per Cent. 70.

Precch

frail WATFIR ,er LONDON BRIDGE TO-MORROW.
irt4rning; 57 minutes after 8. l EveninK, 30 minutes after 9.

'TUE SUN.

SOLEIL' QUIS DICERE FALiLIM AUDE.ID

LONDON,
FRIDAY; APRIL 18, 1823.

EXPRESS 140A1 PARIS.

We received tills morning, by Express, the
Paris Journals Of Wednesday, and the following
important article of private intelligence :----
" PARIS, Wednesday Evening, Six o'Cled..

" ft was stated yesterday in a high quarter
-that the Russians are actually marching towards
Fonce. The seaming non-resistance of Spain,
hithertn, begini to cause great uneasiness, and is
c4miiditreti more the result of policy than inabi•

My. San Sebastian and Pampeluna are both in a
good state of defence, and it is doubtful whether
the siege of them will be attempted. No serious
obstacle is opposed to the advance of the French;
for the strong position of Salinas on the route to
Vittoria has been left undefended by the Spa-
niards, whose policy it evidently is, that the
French line should be extended over as great a
space as possible. We have nothing new from
Perpignan nor Toulouse. MINA does 7101 suer
his intentions to transpire."
The Moniteur contains a long article, justify-
ing the French invasion of Spain, but it adduces
no, arguments in favour of that iniquitous mea-
sure, which are not to be found in the speeches
of the French Ministers, MM. de. VILLELE and
CHATRAuARIAND, which we have already re-
ported.

The following are the most important articles
of intelligence from the Paris Papers 6f Wed-
nesday:—

[From the Moniteur.l
TELEGRAPHIC DISPATCHES.

•• BAY ON E, (received IGth

• " Fampeluna is closely invested. The head-
quarters of the army were on the 14th at Villa
Franca. On the 17th they will be at Vittoria.
The two corps of the army will on the same day
he on the Ebro." .

'From the Quotidienne.l

" The French Army will not cross the Ebro
until the corps 'of Marshal MONCEY and of
General MOLITOR have entered, the one into
Catalonia, the other into Arragon.: Marshal
MONCEY will not commence moving until the 23d•
(Frain Ma Journal de, Diboll•]

" A report of the capture of Pampelttna..was
this evening circulated ; Government has received
no official notification of this circumstance. The
following is the probable origin of this rumour :
The garrison being informed that a division of
the French Army was marching on Pampeluna,
retired into the citadel amid the hisses of the
whole populace, and universal shouts of !live
Ferdinand!

( From the Courier Francais.)

" The Duke of BELLUNO arrived last night at
eight o'clock, and alighted at the Hotel of the
Minister of War, where M. DiucoN has not
slept for the last three or four nights. This
rnorning his Grace resumed the reins of Admi-
nistration, and has already re-established M.M.
PIIIICEVAL and De CIETLOSQUET in the exercises
of their respective functions. The report nt present
current In the public offices is that M.TIIIRAT will
resign the post to which he had been advanced by
M. DIG EON, but that M. TAnAttra will still pre-
serve a portion of the privileges of the Intendant-
General. This morning M. PERCEVAL retools
possession of his Cabinet."
" Reports in their nature most contradictory
were plentifully distributed on the Exchange
this day. Some announced the reduction of
Pampluna, others the capture of St. Sebastian.
—A few again asserted that MINA had made
an offensive movement. The Elude of this
evening repeats the first of these reports
without guaranteeing its truth. As to the
second, it thinks that ' Saint Sebastian might
possibly defend itself, as two thousand of the
very worst subjects of Spain were shut up
therein.' As for MINA, according to l'Etoile, he
has tio more than 4,000 men, he is in full re-
tren. , and his army is on the point of disbanding
Itself. The tenor of the last letters from Perpig-
nun renders these details not a little improbable.

FUENCII IUND.4.--APRIL 16.
F.', It per Cents. Money, Opened at
Closed at B4 f. 60 c.
Account, Opened at B4 f. 90 c.
Highest
Lowest B4 f. 30 c.
Closed at
Neapolitan Five per Cents.
Spanish Bonds 1821 Money 34, .
Account 33' ."

We yesterday' inserted the Proclamation ad.
dressed to the Spanish Nation, by the new Pro-
visional Government which has been established
by the Royalists, or rather by the Cabinet of the
Tuileries. We had not room yesterday for of-
ferieg some remarks upon it, which involve ex-
tremely serious considerations. This self-consti-
tuted Government, acting under the sanction
of France, it appears, has had the presump-
tion. to declare, even before it had set foot
on the Spanish territory, " that It does not
recognize, and that it considers as never hav-
ing existed, the political and administrative acts
of the (Constitutional) Government erected by
rebellion 1" Here, then, is a timely declaration,
that if the French succeed in subverting the pre-
sent order of things in Spain, it is not the intention
of the King's friends to recognize the debts con-
tracted by Spain since the Revolution in 18'20 !
But have the, Provisional Junta forgotten that
the English Government is the principal Creditor
of Spain, or have they the folly to believe that
Great Britain will relinquish her claims, in
consequeuce, of the arrogant disclaimer of the

acts of the existing Spanish Government, set'
forth by the three important personages, EGUIA,
ERRO, and CALDERON ! The holders of Spa-
nish securities, we are aware, have felt some ap-
prehension for the value of their claims, in the
event of the iniquitous enterprise of France
being crowned with success; and it has been
repeatedly enough announced by those persons in
this country who seem to have had something
like a guilty knowledge of the intentions of the
French Government, that the time is rapidly
approaching when the value of the securities
issued by the Constitutional Spanish Government
will be exactly that of the paper on which they
are written ! Buti by the Decree of the Ex-
traordinary Cortes of Spain, on the Bth of
January last, relative to the various claims
and representations of the Government of his
Britannic Majesty, it is amongst other matters
enacted, that " the nation from henceforth re.
cognizes in the Great Book, the sum, greater or
less, of forty million's of reels for the indemnities
which may result from the foregoing adjustment"
[with Great Britain) ; and that " the pay-
ment of the claims of the English subjects men-
tioned in the order of the Cortes of the 27th
of June, 1822, remains a charge on the Na-
tional Treasury." This is an arrangement,
of which, whatever may be the fate of the Go-
vernment of the Cortes, England will, of course,
exact the rigid fulfilment ! She has fully recog-
nized, and continues to recognize, the legitimacy
of the present Government of Spain ; and she
will not suffer herself to be defrauded of her just
claims by the new and revolutionary Govern-
ment which may be imposed upon Spain by
foreign violence. And as the new Government
(if a new Government be established), will be
compelled to pay that portion of the debt which
is due to this country, will not its recognition of
a portion of the claims, necessarily involve its
recognition of the whole ?--Will not the British
Government insist upon the settlement not only
of its own claims, but of those of Its subjects,
upon a nation, which, whatever may be its in-
ternal arrangements, it now treats with as
an independent Power, and which it cannot
suffer to escape from its engagements, by
the mere adoption of a modification of its
Constitution ?—We confess that for our own
part we have the most perfect confidence in the
validity of all the engagements of Spain, what-
ever may be the issue of the present war.

But the Proclamation of the Junta embraces an-
other topic not less interesting than that to which
we have been referring. It has rendered quite
manifest, that of which no man previously enter-
tained a doubt, that France, notwithstanding her
professions to the contrary, has not relinquished
the design of re-establishing an absolute despotism
at Madrid ; for the document now before us
" establishes provisionally the administration of
the State which existed before the violence of
anarchy in 18'20 ;" and declares that " the edifice
of anarchy being thus destroyed, and the King
restored to liberty, then the institutions may
be established which circumstances advise and
require, and which Mt Majesty may deign
" the Provisional Jun-
tato gorfartiltle.l"Gboevcearunsne:ent of the Spanish nation
recognizes only in the King the origin and seat
of the Sovereign Authority, and as a necessary
consequence does not admit in the political sys-
tem any modification which is not made directly
by the King, by the advice of those wise men
whom he may be pleased to consult !"

Lisbon Papers arrived this morning.

'r fol-

lowing are extracts :
" LISBON, APRIL Q.—The last dispatches of
General REGO are dated the 29th ult. at night.
The factious are retreating. He was marching in
pursuit. of the enemy, and %you'd leave Amarante
on the 30th, proceeding by Campia to Villa Real.

" APRIL s.—The Mario of this date contains
two short notices from General Rego, dated
Villa, the 31st of Marchand Ist of April. They
state the continued retreat of the factious at the
approach of the Constitutional troops.

" CORTES.

ft ROYAL SITTING, MARCH 31.

" His MAJESTY havi►►g been introduced with
the usual ceremonies, and having taken l►is seat
upon his throne amidst the enthusiastic salutations
of the persons who filled the galleries, a profound
silence succeeded, and Ills MAJESTY spoke as
follows :

" GENTLEMEN—The labours of the present
Legislature being to cease to.day, according to
the Constitution, I come to rejoice with you at
the wisdom and patriotism which you have shewn
in the legislative measures which you had judged
necessary for the execution and progress of the
Constitution, and for the security of civil liberty
and the re-establishment of order and public
tranquillity, which the spirit of faction dared to

disturb in one of the extremities of the kingdom.
" This circumstance so afflicting to my paternal
heart, offered at the same time an irrefragable
testimony of the purity of the Constitutional
spirit, and of the patriotism of the greater part of
the nation, as well as of the firmness with which
the Representatives answered to the confidence
of their constituents.

44 Yes, gentlemen, I owe to the nation, to its
worthy Representatives, and to the whole world,
the just and consolatory declaration, that the great
majority of the kingdom is faithful to the
oath which it took to the Constitution, and
every Portuguese who is worthy of the name,
that in the same manner as his King would
rather lose his life than disregard the sanctity
of his oath, and the dignity of his character,
to any one of his subjects, who should fail to
follow his example, would be the object of his
certain indignation. I do not fear, that the
criminal attempt of internal or external armies
will prevail against the general will of the na-
tion. I regret, however, that the shortness of
the time, and the accumulation of business have
hindered you from passing those organized laws
relative to the Courts of Justice, the finances, &c.
on which the progress and the consolidatio❑ of
the Constitutional System depended.

" I, therefore, under these circumstances, con-
sider it necessary that the National Representa-
tion should be speedily united round the throne
in the form+ determined by the Constitution,
since the public security and the perfection of
the system require it.
" I have now, Gentlemen, only to promise to
you, as well as the nation, which you so worthily
represent, my co-operation in the cause of na-
tional liberty, ns faithful and efficacious as my
sentiments are pure, of which I can offer you no
better pledge than my conduct and my cha-
racter."

" The PRESIDENT returned a suitable answer,
in which he especially complimented his MA-
JESTY on the firmness of character which he had
displayed under the difficult circumstances in
which the kingdom had been for some time
placed."

American Papers arrived this morning to the
25th March.

VERY LATU PROM LIMA.---.The brig Shepillion
has arrived at Baltimore from Lima. At Lima
the greatest disorder prevailed—nothing but
robberies and disaffection among the natives.
Foreigners were murdered with impunity. A
mass of Government paper has been issued,
which had depreciated 50 per cent. So disor-
ganised is the Government of Lima, and so to-
tally unable to pay the military, that the road
from that place to
_Callao is completely in-
fested with robbers. The Royal troops, under
CONTERAC, were about 40 leagues from Lima, in
considerable force, and fears were entertained
he would be in possession of Lima. Pisco, and
all other ports to the South‘iard, are still in pos.
session of the Royalists. The force under VALDEZ
are about 5,000, and those under CONTERAC
about 7,000. The Supreme Junta of Peru has
decreed that DON Mosyrr.AoAno, Secretary of
State for Foreign Relations, is for ever expelled
from the Republic as a traitor to his country.

Frtom COLOMBIA.—By the schooner Convey,
from Jamaica, we have advises from Rogota to
the last of Dec. Cal. TODD, authorized agent
from the United States, arrived on the 24th of
that month. A Rogota Paper, in noticing his
arrival, says, the Civil and Military Autho-
rities, and the Towns through which he passed,
manifested every sign of pleasure, being the first
foreign Agent who arrived there. It appears
from some proceedings, which grew out of dis-
patches from the late Mr. Zea, that he had in his
negociations in Europe, transcended the Powers
with which he was invested, but the Government
seemed disposed to fulfil the engagements ho had
made.

[FROM A COIMESPONDCNT.]

STOCK EXCHANGE, Twelve o'Clock.—Consols
opened at 761 1, and remain steady, with little
doing.
FOREIGN M A llKET.—Spanish Bonds have de.
dined this morning, having been done at 2S
09! L.

4 4.

HORRID Al u run. a.—( D eal, April I7.)—The
neighbourhood of Deal has this day been thrown
into the greatest consternation, in consequence of
an atrocious murder having bien committed on
one of its inhabitants, a Mr. JOSEPII BELL, resid-
ing in the vicinity of the town. The murder was
committed about nine o'clock last evening, while
the unfortunate man was sitting at table, by a
loaded gun fired from without side the window
of the room in which he was. Three persons
have been arrested on suspicion (one of them the
only son to the deceased, aged about 19. years,)
and are now under examination.—lt is appre-
hended, from what has already transpired in evi-
dence, that the murder will prove to have been
one of a parricidal nature. A Coroner's Inquest
will be held on the body immediately when a Co-
roner can he 'obtained, and further details of
this, melancholy affair will be given.