The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-16 00:00:00

THE SUN,

LONDON, TUESDAY

They had admitted more .peeple into the workhouses than
rer,„,,,he
were in ordinary cases calculated to hold. They had also 3
ex-
panded large sums in drainage, in order to give employment to
the poor, and 100,C00/. had been contributed by local com-
mittees for the relief of the poor. He regretted that the Go-
vernment proposed to institute the out-door relief test, bevaus.
he believed it would open a door to fraud. He quoted the
opinions of Mr. Lewis and sir. Twisleden, Assistant Pocr-law
Commissioners, to show the great disadvantages which could
not fail to attend the adoption of a large plan
of out-door relief. They agreed in opinion that
each a system would impoverish those who, like agricultural
labourers, had some work to do, and would throw a burden on
the landlords which they would be unable to hear. Until the
social condition of Ireland was assimilated to that of England,
such a poor-law as the one proposed would be found most impo-
litic, and Ireland, instead of being, as he hoped, the right arm of
England, would become a far greater difficulty than heretofore.
He, with those with whom he acted, were very sorry indeed to
throw any imputation on the landlords of. Ireland. For fifteen
years he had paid great attention to the affairs of that country,
but le must say, though an advocate for a poor-law, that he
believed that the measure proposed was quite inade-
quate to the necessities of that country. He had listened to
the speech of the Hon. Hember for the University of Dublin
and he could bear witness to the assertions of the Hon. Mem-
ber, after having listened to his speech, that he was in no way
open to the objections which had been made to his observa-
tions, for no man had done his duty better ; but still he felt
that the principles of the electoral divisions was a bad one, for
when he compared the principle adopted in Wexford with that
adoi ted in the division of Lady's Island, he fourid that while
in the former the borough rate was Is. 7d. in the pound, that
e
advanced.
mightuer es
p i not
P
in the latter was only 12d. The natural result was, that the
paupers had been driven from the electoral dislricts into the
fteorwgriets.thl That
speech
e thh e
of
the natural
Hon. result,
Memberand still
t,m
th he eLc.rno not
tuvledrsi
ty
had asserted that Ireland had not p gres-ed. That Hon.
Gentlemanthe
l landed
nthdeed paupers,hga
ed still
tr
a nofduugrthht, further
time
ioma asserted
support ehrat detorl?mattth, the poor
rhot
the
re
alhadanndd sup-
ported
and
un-
tily
o f that
ty
country
yd
neversom e
notine olsurugeledelhatnerbi,ned'ee,oa.interests
impression
on fe suffi-
cientat hri
Hear,)
Not hatingwitness,
butue h
hper oepoeurltdy be
the landlords
ayvoeuhgat
the
et
made
aroedsebe be
fort responsible eGst
ophote,neisrmintimpl ereon‘f,toermftheunielt rnseourfeprAitehtostert s
fore
poo
poor
thetn
poor.
rerriionlis ethge
Ireland ; and he trusted they would be carried out. When
the Noble Lord who introduced the measure for the formation
of railways had stated that this could only be a temporary
measure, he was anxious for a permanent measure for the
relief of the poor.
Lord JOHN MANNERS conceived that unless some
permanent measure were introduced, it would be worse
than useless, for, unless that were done, it was only weak-
ness to legislate. Out of a population of five hundred thou-
sand, this measure was only calculated to give relief to
Three hundred thousand labourers. Admitting that this
measure was calculated to administer relief to six
hundred thousand heads of families, yet it was evi-
dently inadequate to the circumstances of the case,
They had then to look to the measures of the Government,
and he must confess that the measures which they proposed was
totally inadequate for the purpose which they professed to
serve, and admitting all the facts which the Noble Lord had
adduced at the commencement of the session for the improve-
ment of the waste lards in Ireland, he still could not
perceive that there was anything like an assurance that
these measures would answer the purpose for which they
were propounded.—( Hear, hear.) On the remarks of his No-
ble Friend the Member for Lynn, be would offer no comments,
but he might say, that on the facts which he had adduced no
one could express the slightest doubt. That Noble Lord had
stated that by his project employment would be provided for
upwards of five thousand heads of families as su-
perintendents of the works which he had advocated,
and none of those assertions had been contradicted.
and then the House looked to the opportunity which was af-
forded for the employment of the people, he thought that the
House would be assured that the measures of the Government
would in no way prove superior for the advantage of the people.
Admitting that 5,000 hearts of families were to be provided for
by the scheme of waste lands, he then came to ask what was
to be effected by any scheme for increased emigration. The
Noble Lord had said that he did not in, end greatly to increase
the facilities for emigration, and supposing that the increase
would accommodate 5.000 heads of families more, they then
came to the extended fisheries. With all these schemes—the
drainage—the education scheme—and the fisheries—public
works—there-could not be more than 100,000 heads of families
provided for. He asked then, what became of the half million
of persons which remained.—( Hear, hear.) What was to
become of them, and what measures did the Government.
intend to adopt for their relief. He would put before the
House the reasons which induced him to think that they had
still population to provide for. He agreed that they had a right
to expect increased exertions on the part of the Irish laudlord,
and increased cultivation of the land. They ought to rely
greatly on the Irish landlord for th employment of these la-
bourers, and therefore they ought to take care to give such a •
poor-law as would not depress, but facilitate the exertions of the
Irish proprietors. The measure was one of the greatest im-
portance, and ought to be approached with the greatest caution.
It was a measure which ought to enable Irishmen to look back
with pleasure, instead of sorrow, to the period of the calamity
which afflicted them. He felt that a portion of this Bill tended
in the most direct manner to interfere with the exertions of
Irish landlords. It made no difference between those landlords
who spent their incomes in the improvement of their estates
and the amelioration of the condition of the peasantry, and
those who spent their incomes uselessly at Bath or at Naples.
The present measure would destroy the last remnant of that
ancient parochial and territorial system which had
tended so much to the benefit of the country,
Let them conceive the feelings of the man who was rated for
his portion of the expenses, when he had exerted himself to
the utmost in the maintenance of his own poor, and who had
forborne to place a burden upon those who were in distress—
let them conceive his feelings when rated equally with the
man whose tenantry knew or saw nothing of him, except at
certain periodical visits. He could not bring himself to sup-
port such a system—a system which pressed equally upon the
man who did his duty and the man who neglected it in every
respect. He thought, unless the House would show a bolder
wisdom than had hitherto been shown by her Majesty's Go-
vernment, they would extend a curse rather than a boon to
Ireland, by an extended poor-law. They should make Irish
property answerable to the Irish poor, but not in the way
in which her Majesty's Government proposed to do. Unless
that care were taken in imposing a Poor-law upon Ireland
ses-ion after session, would Irish misery form a never ending
hems of discussion in that House, and one which would never
be properly remedied unless greater caution were adopted.
Mr. LA-BOUCHERE said that he should not direct his at-
tention to the details of the Bill before the House, several of
which were most important, but to that which he believed to
be the main principle of the measure. lie should not, there-
fore follow the Noble Lord who had just sat down into the ques-
tion of whether the system of rating should be placed upon the
unions or upon the electoral divisions; nor should he advert to
the proposition made by several gentlemen, of increasing the
number of ex -officio guardians ; because he thought that in-
stead of mixing up all these details into one general description
it was the rule of that House to consider them severally in
committee, when the clauses relating to them were brought
forward ; and it would be of more use to con-
fine themselves to the general principles of the measure.
That principle was one of the most important kind—it was
whether the system of out- door relief should, however
slight, be extended to the able-bodied poor in Ireland. H.
confessed that, for his own part, he should be willing to take
the justification of the measure which had been proposed by
her Majesty's Government from the speeches which had been
made in vindication of its principle by gentlemen connected
with Ireland, and which had been addressed to the House in
the course of the evening. He alluded particularly to those
speeches made by the Noble Lord the Member for Down-
shire, his Hon. Friend the Member for Waterford, and the
Hon. and Gallant Member representing Londonderry. They
were three gentlemen entitled, by their experience as Irish
landlords, their intimate acquaintance with the local concerns
of Ireland, and the honourable anxiety which they had
evinced in their respective localities to improve the
condition of the people around them, as well as any
Members of that House could be, to express an opinion upon
this subject. Those three gentlemen could not be influenced
by the disposition attributed to the Irish Members by some of
the English Members of that House, namely—that of support-
ing the measuresdevisierdisfrinthteerersetla. Tn
relief of Ireland,
Hon.reland Member,without any
d
individual regard to
said that he opposed the introduction of out-door relief, as it
was introducing a dangerous principle into operation ; but the
question was, a great calamity had overtaken Ireland, the
potato-crop had failed, and hence!orth the people of Ireland
must either starve or be enable to earn wages. Such
was the state of things, and he raid it was no longer
possible to leave them to chance, or to toe support derived from
voluntary contributions, but that a provision must be made by
the Legislature to support those persons. They hail now ar-
rived, if not to the end of the discussion, at least to the second
night of it, and he het heard no answer to the question pro-
pounded by the Noble Lie d at the head of the Government In
his opening statement, which was the alternative before them,
either to maintain the peo, le or allow them to starve. No one
had said let them be left to perish, or that England, or the
imperial treasury, should maintain them. On the contrary,
though it was admitted that Ireland at present had peculiar
claims on this country, it was held right that the destitute people of
Ireland should be supported by the property and the soil of Ire-
land. This was the principle of the present Bill, which he had
no doubt would be agr:ed to by an immense majority, not only
of English, but of Irish Members, and be made the law of the
land. The Noble Lord who had just sat down, stated that he
was not against the measure, but he objected to it, because it
was not accompanied by other large and comprehensive mea-
sures. He (Mr. Labouchere) admitted that the Bill should be
viewed in connexion with the general scheme of the
Government, but he could not but see that the
e
main objection of the Noble Lord arose from the
rejection of the favourite scheme for eailwanys
This
troduced by the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn
but he (Mr.Ly n
constituted the main objection of the Noble Lord,
Hon. Member for the University of
evils of the case. ThehHo
ta.te of the county of Mayo and
Labeuchere) could not see how the measure could have met
Dublin had referred to t efo
to support the destitute. This
was an 'extreme
cumstances,
and Learned Member cited. But sup-
posingasked how it was possible for the. proprietors, under such' sir-
asked
which the
would ask another question,
sft s
s would u was,
theh e(Nir.
propertyLaobf Labouchere)
pro-
prietorsere) that Mayo was
aid? He believed that it would
not unless great exertion was
be sufficient to support the destitute without external
made, and it was to stimulate this that thei present Bill was
pre-
pared. He believed that it would he
great exertion on the part of Irishmen mpossible to struggle
through without
them-
selves, and therefore he thought the present
n the
conduct measureon
lead to this. A good deal of discussion had turned
conduct of the Irish landlorag d
s
,
and sweeping condemnations
had been made.
net
gretaitnaintjhuesitriceeonhdaudeb,etionrleeaed done
re with
out of view the pecuniary
several Hon. Members, that
them, as it was unfair, in
dif-
ficultiesesti-
in which they were placed. And he believed that if
as great exertion had been made to bring to light the conduct
of those whe had done their duty in the crisis, as had been
displayed in bringing obloquy on others, a very different im-
pression would have been produced on the House
and the country. He thought that if the con..
duct of many of the small proprietors, especially
the great sacrifices of the clergy had been placed before thent
and the public, it would be seen that great injustice had been
done to the proprietors of Ireland as a whole. At the same
time, he must say that the Legislat ore had not received from
others that support which had been exiected. He never liked
to give names, but as several Sco:ch proprietors had been
most deservedly mentioned for the exertions they had made to
relieve the destitute, he wished to name one Irish landlord who
could bear comparison with them, and he was but one of many
others he might cite. He knew nothing of the gentleman
personally, and the information he had derived was from one
of the officers employed under the Government in that part of
the country where the gentleman resided. The Right
Honourable Gentleman here read an extract from the let-
ter of the officer, which stated that Sir Robert Booth
the gentleman referred to, resided in the county of Sligo,ee
where he had a large estate. He had at hdiasilownstribute 180
i
gallons of soup. During six daysplace
opened
two id
n
two soup boilers of 140 gallons each, and
distri-
buted 180 loaves of bread above 4
s.in the week at a reduced
Besides this, he distributed
inb each
wewigehetk, eh aceh also
dai
sides selling 30 tons of Indian
hr )
corn_
pgruiacnet. —(H
oaantdmceaele
and other articles of food. Hen
had, 51 7 tons of Indian corn in sand,
a
Indian cern m %ere, besides
bad
dttie ordereddate o fa bletter,
tons