The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-24 00:00:00

BILL.

Mr. SHELL presented petitions from Carrick-on-Suir
and other pia e 3 in the South of Ireland, in favour of the
Bi.l introduud by Lord Morpetb, and against Lord
Stanley's Bill.

Lora CL hiVIENTS .preser.ted petitions from soveral
places is Leitrim with a similar prayer.

ADJOURNED DEBATE.
On the Order of the Day being read for resuming the
wijourned debate on the Registia.iou of Voters Bill (Ire-
land),
Mr. YOUNG rose, and said he wished to offer a few
observations on the Bill introduced on that subject by the
Noble Lord (Lord Morpeih) opposite, with respect to
tie accusation which bad been so often brought for
ward, of a settled enmity being entertained by
the party amongst whom be stood, against the peace and
the liberty of Ireland. He would have hardly thought it
necessary to take notice of what bad been stated in the
speech of the Noble Lord (Lord niorpttli) last night, if
he did nut think the statements made in that speech were
more suited to a discourse in some popular assembly than
to a speech from an Hon. Member to that House.
He conceived that the history of Ire!and for the last half
century, was a sufficient answer to the charges cf
hostility to the Irish people brought against his
party. Since the year 1765, they had founded their
pellcy towards that country on principles cf kind-
ae,s and conciliation. Liak by link the chains
which bound the teeth people had been struck off; and he
could not now discover the least difference between the
coLsbtion cf the Irish Roman Catholics and that of their
Protestant cormtrymen. The statutes which had been
passed of late years had been introduced in part by Hon.
Gentlemen on his side of the House, and the prosperity
of Ireland was shoving the wisdom of their policy.
Ai the present day he saw no diminution of that good
will. He found it stated by the Right Hor. Geutic-
man, the Member for Tam werth, when introducing the
Catholic Relief Bill, that he preferred carrying out it.;
dttails on priaciples of generous confidence rather than
attempting to impair the value of the concession by any
vexatious restrictions. He believed that that
Giwasestil. still
the course which the party led by the ILig
man was willing, to pursue. He remembered that it' tk
had'
been stated by the Right Hoc Member for Pembroke
mbroke on
the Irish. Corporation Bill that his party did not intend to
act on a narrow and exclusive policy towards Ireland ; and
the Right Hoc. Gentleman added that such an attempt
could no more be carried into effect than the sun could go
back from the dial. In thatopinion he (Mr. Y. )fully coin-
, ceded. The Noble Lord (Lord Morpetb), however, in the

course of his speech last night, complained o the effects
which the Bill introduced by the Noble Lord (the Member
for Lancashire) would have on the interests of the majo-
rity of the people of Ireland. The Noble Lord
stated that the Bill was full of snares and dangers
which the most wreckless only would be willing
to encounter. If, however, it were true that the
Bill contained clauses of a restricted nature, those
clauses could he altered in Committee ; and for his own part
be would not give his vote for any clause that could tend
unduly to restrict the franchise or to throw vexatious ob-
stacles in the way of the claimant. —(Hear, hear.)
But the Bill of the Noble Lord opposite was not a Bill
merely for the purpose of amending the registration, but
a Bill to alter the franchise by placing it on a basis mate-
rially lower, and one which he thought he should be able
to show was not calculated to benefit either the agricultural
or social improvement of Ireland-_( Hear, hear, hear)
—and one that, instead of conducing to the real
independence of the elector, was calculated to
injure it, and to prevent the electors from exercising
a viper control over their repiesentatives.—(Hcar.)
Hone el hardly say a word on the question cf the valuation
which had Leen so fully discussed last night. That valua-
tion made by the Noble Lord's own Commissioners had
not he in made according to tie provisions of the Poor-
law Act, and was, in fact, a fraud upon the landlords in
favour of the tenants; and instead of throwing overboard
I such a valuation, the Noble Lord brought it forward
as the foundation of his Bill for giving an ex-
tension to the franchise. lie thought the Noble Lord
ought at least to have laid aside his Bill for a time, in
order to see how that valuation would have workcJ. With
respect to the question of the lowering of the franchise,
most gentlemen acquainted with the existing franchise in
Irelaul ;would agree with him in st ding that it would
' require eight acres of Irish ground, well cultivate:l, with
a good house, to be held at a very leer rent, or at no rent
at all, in order to confer the franchise upon the holder, ac-
cording to the beneficial interest test which he should
throughout his argument assume to be the proper test for
the coeferring of the franchise. Now eight Irish
acres were equal to twelve English acres. According
to the Report of the valuator of the Lurgan union, all the
land in that union was valued at 11. sa. the English acre,
therefore the 5/ value would confer the franchise upon
the holder of four English acres; thus in the union of
Lurgan the possession of one-third the land required at
present would confer the franchee, and in the county of
Longferd the possession of one-half would produce the
same effect. Ile thought that must be admitted to
be a great lowering of the franchise. --( Hear, hear.)
The e%ils of bribery were felt in the time of the 40r. fr ee-
holders, but he thought that those evils would be magni-
fied by the provisions of the Noble Lord's Bill, for the
franchise proposed by that Bill was very little above the
40'. freeholders. With regard to the numbers likely
to be admitted under the franchise of the Noble
Lord, he found its that portion of the union of
Lurgan, which contained the county of Armagh, there
was 39,847 scree, the whole county containing about
128,000, and in that county there were about
22,144 teternents which would qualify their occupiers
to have the franchi-e, while in thet county the
persons employing labourers did not exceed 17,000
Upon the point of what would best promote the social ini-
prcvement of Ireland he begged leave to quote the opinion
of a man who was much respected even by Gentlemen on
the opposite side of the House, he alluded to Mr. Blake,
the Chief Remetnbrancer of Ireland ; it was given fifteen
y ears ago, but he (Mr. Y.) had, he believed, good reason
to say that he retained the same opinion up to the present
time. The Hoc. Member then quoted Mr. Blake's opinion,
viz. by raising the franchise from 40s. to a fol. beneficial
occupation. That opinion wits quoted with much appro-
hearse by Lord Hatherton when he, as Secretary for Ire-
land, brought in a Bill to regulate the franchise.for that
country. Much had been said in favour of the Belgian
system ; but looking at all the recent writers upon the state
of that country, it was proved that they were in a wretched
condition ; that after severe and incessant labour, and prac-
tising the most rigid economy, they were scarcely able to
keep their heads above water. That system might answer
in that country, which was still in a state of transition, but
it would not do, and ought not to be attempted to be forced
upon a people like the Fish, who bad borne their difficul-
ties and privations in a mostsurprisingly peaceable manner.
They had recently added to these claims by a fresh title
to The sympathy and good feeling of the people of Eng-
laad. No country had shown more signal marks of
resolution of purpose and energy of character
than the people of Ireland had in rescuing themselves
from the evils of intoxication.—( Hear, hear.) lie trusted
that the refoamation might be as lasting as its benefits
were obvious and important.—( Hear.) It was desirable
that the constituencies should be sufficiently numerous,
that when some particular subject inflamed the public mind
they should hare sufficient weight in numbers and ieTec-
lability to stem the torrent of popular violence.—(Hear,
boa-.) In the year 1784 it was tic gerie•al feeling of
tl.e justice and sound policy of his measures that placed
Mr. Pitt in power. On another occasion of liter datc in
their own timer, which it was not very palatable to
Conservative to refer to—he meant the Reform
Biil--he conceived that it was the constituencies
who raised themselves is opposition to the aris-
tccracy, and thereby probably averted the riots and
bloodshed which would have ensued in the
event of the measure having been rejected.
In Ireland there were other influences be idea those of
the landlord. He would not enter into the details
of that much controverted question, whether
the polidcal power which the Roman' Catholic
clergy cf Ireland possessed was obtained by I gitimete
means, or was used for legitimate purposes; but
tots le would say. that firrr.ly at teched as he
was to the doctrines cf the Established Church—great
as was the respect he entertained for the
ministers of that Chtireh,—yet not even in their hands
would he wish to see that vast amount of irresponsible po-
litical power which was undoubtedly wielded by the clergy-
men of the Catholic Church in Ireland. Now upon
those considerations, and wishing to do what was fair and
just, and looking to what was the present defective
state of information on the subject of valuation, he felt
bound to oppose the precipitate measure now sought to
be introduced. When be looked to the amount of qualifi-
cation granted by the Bill of the Noble Lord
(Lord Morpeth) opposite, and when lie saw in that
an index of the ideas of Government, he owned
he felt apprehensions. It seemed to bins that a
step was taken in an entirely wrong direction, and con-
trary to the dictates of sound policy, and opposed to those
anticipations entertained arid held out to the country by
the statesmen who changed the 40s. freeholders to
10/. freeholders. The measure of the Noble Lord would
destroy the political power of the country, by putting the
elective franchise in the hands of a second-rate and
less desirable cline of persons. It would dimi-
rush the independence of the elector and in-
crease the expense of elections, and would perpe-
tuate that low and degraded state from which,
under the influence of happier ercumstances, the
people of Ireland mere steadily, though slowly, emerg-
ing. If the great change so mysteriously. pre-
pared—so suddenly brought before the public—if that
great change now proposed should be adopted
there would be no ratification so strong that would not be
considered most easily changed on the slightest causes.
He would, therefore, oppose the measure now sought to be
passed into law.
;Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN then rose, but from the peat
noise in the House, 'was inaudible in the gelicry. We
understood the Honourable Member to be ad-
dressing himself more particularly to the speech
of the Noble Lord, the Member for North Lan-
cashire (Lord Stanley). He thought the Noble
Lord had brought a very slender stock of argu-
ment to bear against the Bill. The Noble Lord
the Member for North Lancashire had reproached
the Noble Lord near bias with inconsistency,
while the Nable Lord himself was in many cases
more open to the charge. The Noble Lord bad
complained that a 51. rent, and not a 51. profit
was adopted a's the test for the franchise in the Govern-
ment measure ; but the fact was Vent the Poor-law.valu-
ation iu Ireland was so low that if the profit test were
adopted under it the Irish constituences would be annihilated.
The Noble Lord had ended his address to the I-louse by
quotations and arguments, to show that though theindispo-
sition of the landlords to grant leases to tenants was one
cause of the small number of the constituency of Ireland
as compared with the constituency in Erigland, y 4 that
tie mails cause was the poverty of the country. The
Noble Lord could scarcely be ignorant of the value of pro-
perty in Ireland, and he would, with the permission of the
House, advert to that part of the country in which the
Noble Lord was a landlord. In Tipperary the population
in Ib3l was 402,000, and in the valuation by Mr. Giiflith
in 1832. the valuation of the land in that county was
886,139/. a-year, and lie believed it would be found that
the present number of electors in that county was not-more
than 2,000. The time had now conic when the Govern-
ment bad fairly grappled with the subject, and he regarded
the present Bill at one that would amend the Irish- Re-
ortti Bill; lie considered it a Bill that would settle the
franchise, atid would give a good system of registration
in I:e'and, would be productive of great good, and such a
Bill was th e one now under the consideration of the
House. AU. parties had admitted that the prevent state of
things was net sound. The question then came to
was it not possible so to reform the basis of the francluso
as to give satisfaction to all parties. Many attempts had
been made of late years to do so. Sir M. O'ligielecl'e
when in that House, had proposed and carried a Bill
it was
defined the- franchise, but the consequence war that
G
thrown out, in the Lords. The present Attorn.c-
brought its Bills for the same purpose last year,
~9
me ..
found that there was not the
slightest' chabnceewoarsbtio takeeta
ing with arty support. Thu only thing
adoptede that
e Reform.st a
at dh ae rind
new bads for the franchise, and they hatb unt rhael
ba-
sis which had been most praised by_then Conservativee lac' itlyl_,
and more especially by the Right .11
Exeter. When they found that t_
1;tof the extent proposed by.
ter for Taanwortb, and the Hon. ahneclocLo.enasrtinteadenMcieems boefrlrfee_r
Ire-
land did not amount to one-half
surely, then, it became
the authors of the
their duty totfoorsotahleevfmrae
franchise
samehe upon
such a basis as would bringi
county of Cork ; in 1834
was 703 716, the value of
the population of that
and the
J 37,9421. and
amount. He placewould take the
land VMS 1 county was
was
about2,ooo;
apparently there
were more, but making allowance
des and removals the number of the constituency
forwo deaths
be found to be about 2,600, which gave only one
cl-ctor t- t every 400 inhabitants. In reference to the
valuation there was only one voter to every 5001. of rental.
Vas that the case in any county in England ?—( Hear.)
For his o wn part he was of opinion that keeping the tenure
with the .51. rating the number of voters iu the registry
would be much smaller than at present. ri e was glad,
therefore e the Government had erred on the side
of liber salty, if any error there was, and they acted
wisely not to place it upon a higher basis.
At the a ame time he thought they would have followed
out a ma re constitutional principle if the franchise bad
been gr 9 ated to the tenantry of Ireland without reference
to tenure at all. He did not think it wise ir, any country
to give t he landlords the power of withholding tee r gilts
of citiza (Alp from the people. In that opinion he con-
curred ci ith the Ulster Association ; and he should say, In

EVENING EDITION

reference to the Report of that Association which had
been alluded to by the Noble Lord, that he had never read
a more able and comprehensive document on the whole
question cf registration. He would add, that if the Noble
Lord foll)wci the recommendations it eaitained, he could
not be much at variance with the opinions entertained by
Hon. Members on his (Mr. S. (Mien's) side of tb
HouFe. He regretted, however, that the Bill of the Go-
vernment did not abolish the necessity for the payment of
rates and ttxes, with the exception of the poor-rates.
With regard to the registration clauses, they had his entire
concurrence, as they went on the fair principle of re-
moving from the register all those who had ceased to pos-
sess tee right to be there, and to facilitate Vie acquisi-
tion of the franchise by those who had a right to it.
The Hon. Gentleman proceeded, at considerable length,
to make observations on the several clauses of the Bill,
stating the grounds on which he assented to some, and
diff, red from others. With regard to the clause which
related to poging he thought that the Bilt did not go far
cnouu,N. He would wish to see all elections concluded, if
possibly, in one day.

Sir R. BA'CES-UN said, after the speech of the Noble
Lord (Stanley) last evening, it would ill become him to
trespass long upon the House ; but he could net sit silent
and hear the constituency of Ireland so misrepre.entcd as
lie had heard them last right..--( Hear, hear.) He did not
understand the Noble Lord ta vsialt that the. •landlords
should control the votes of their tenants in an uncon-
stitutional manner, but that they thould only exercise
the legitimate influence of property. The tenants
in Ireland had the greatest repugnance to register.
Because, if they did they would be compc l'ed to vote
against their landlords, under terror of remorseless persecu-
tion for themselves and faiti its in this rata Id, and the
tbrezt of eternal punishment in the next. —( Hear, hear. )
That was the intimidation under which the people suffered,
and that was the cause of the falling off in the registry.
It had been said that all partie3 in Ireland were opposed
to the Bill of Lord Stanley. But the contrary wag the
fact in the wealthy and intelligent province of Ulster, al-
most the entire population of which was in favour of that
Bill. This was shown by the petition presented la.t
with 91.000 signatures, every one of the petitioners ha'-
ing written his own name, and added his place of rani-
denee.—( Hear, hea-.) in the cther province a large
part of the wealthy and intelligent inhabitants were
friendly to the measure. A: to the proposed qualification
of 51. rated value, it would be in many ewes practically
lower than the fa7-famed 40s. freeholders, who were con-
sidered in 1829, even by the grea'est Liberal', a body of
voters whom it was desirable to get rid of. He begged
the independent gentlemen of Ergland not to trert this fs
a party qaeition, but to look upon it solely a; one
of vit ii importance to the interests of Ireland.
As a resident:lrishman he supported the Bill oft .e Noble
Lord near him, considering as he did, that the system of
sr.bdividing 14nd was the source of the rack-tents, and of
many of that calamities of Ireland. Ha believed, therefore,
that if the Si. rating proposed by the Noble Lord opp osite
were adopted, it would destroy all the good produced by
the establishment of the 10/. franchise, and that it would
lead to the misery and beggary of the Irish people. The
Noble Lord had appealed to thtir fears of the repeal
agitation, but be fe't that no fe.r recd be entertained on
the subject—none, at least, need be felt as regarded• the
province of Uhter. He believed that matter had been
settled by what wearied at the late visit of the Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin to Belfast. On that occa-
sion, in spite of the pomp of the preparations, the attempt
to enlist the people of Ulster in favour of the repeal agi-
tation had proved a total failure. The Hon. Baronet con-
cluded by expre sing a hope that the Bill c f the Noble
Lord the Scerct,v-y for Ireland would be rejeated by the
House, and that .he Bill of the Noble Lord the Member
for North Lancashire would soon become the law of the
lam!.

Nit.. CAREW did not mean to eat 'r into any details
with regard to the Bill of the Noble Lord. It was ad-
mitted on ell hands that there were many abuse; in the
precrit system of registration, and none were greater
than those arising from the vexatious proccelli-gs to which
those who claimed a right to be on the register were ex-
posed. Such persons were kept in many instances for a
week waiting about the Registration Courts, and losing
their valuable time, and were often rejected on mere
technical grounds, which could not but :tepees to the
voter to be a most vexatious proceeding.—( Cheers.) The
consequence of these vexatious proceedings had been that
there was growing up among the constituency of Leland
an apathy and a disinclination to exercise the franchise.
The Bill cf the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland was
calculated to remove those coils and that apathy, and
the. close it should have his h, arty support. It was cal-
culetel to extend the right cf voting—that every
one would koit upon the possession cf. the fran-
chise as indispensable to his personal comfort.—
( Issas), flo had received a letter from a elsrgy-
man of the Church of England, residing in Queen's County,
in which he desetibed the evils of the present state of re-
gistration ; that litter stated thct the plai of Lord Mew-
1-rah had been hailed with universal satistact,on ; and the
writer went on to say that he had recently attended a Re-
gistration Court, which appeared to him "t 5 biSnothing
more than an arena of hard swearing, in which the man
who swore the hireest was the moat SUCC2SfuI.—( Cheers
from the Oppusition)—that the honest voter, who had
sworn to the value of his property, and who was in a con-
dition to be better acquainted with its value than any
other person, was set aside upon the hard swearing of
some lured valuator.—(Loud cheers from the Nlinistcrisl
side of the House. ) lie would ask it such procecdirgs
were not revolting to all DCCSOTIS possessed of religious
feclii,gs? 6 He hoped the House would consider the pr,-
sent state of Ireland. Notwithstanding what had faders
from the Floe. Gentleman opposite, he cotrid assure the
House that fisoeixths of the people of Ireland were op-
posed to Lord Stanley's Bill. —( Loud cheers.) If ever
an opportunity had occurred for the House to conciliate
the good feeling of the people of Leland, it was on the
• present occasions • and he hoped they would embrace it,
by passing the Bill of the Government, which was calcu-
lated to remove the evils of the registration system. :tad
to enlarge the franchise, while the Bill of the Noble
Lord, the Member for North Lancashire, was one calcu-
lated entirely t.) destroy the franchises of tho people of
Ireland.—( Cheers. )
Lord HO WICK would remind the House that the
question they were c .11e on t 3 decide war, whether in
attempting to amend the system of registration in Ireland,
they should also endeavour to give a clear definition of
the electoral franchise.—(Cheers.) The question was
not whether they should adopt all the details of his Noble
Friend's Bill, not whether they should determine that a
5/. rating should bestow the qualification for the franchise,
not whether it would be advisable to apply the test of rate,
for the purpose of ascertaining the franchise, in any given
manner, but simply whether. in amending the sys-
tem of registration, it would be desirable at the same time
to introduce some method of making the franchise depend
upon the assessment to the Pcor-rates.—(Cheers.) That
was the question which was really before the House. Now,
putting aside all recollections of the angry discussions of
last year, and of the party feelings which had been then
excited, he thought that he might assume that wi h regard
to the necessity for alteration in the system of registration
ahl
tseirdaetsi
oonfs
ttoh eb
etimo uadsee cfroer
alsoawll
eptaor,lt.elersabwleyraegargeerededa's andto the both
h the. he looked at the Bill of his Noble Friend opposite
or at that of his Noble Friend on that side of the House,
the differences between the two systems were not so
great, but that one Bill might be made perfectly to
resemble the other without undergoing greater altera-
tions in Committee than almost every other important
measure had undergone in the course of its progress through
pos-
sible House.t h lei ee
emi•josui
rne
totwt
eadhderetshs
ehrimeaslelf tieeas briefly
stieeh as
efet
ethe
House, and in so doing he should not quote from any docu-
ment, or go into any statistical details of which he thought the
House had had snore than sufficient during the debate. The
simple question was, in a measure for amending the system
of registration, ought they or ought they not to attempt some
improvement in the definition of the franchise? Without going
so far as to say, that they were bound under all circum-
stances, in a measure for amending the registration, to in-
troduce some provision for a better definition of the franchise,
he would express his decided opinion that such a provision was
in the highest degree desirable and expedient, and that it was
also in the highest degree desirable and expedient, that both
subjects should be included in the same Bill. Throughout
the whole course of the debate no one had denied the existence
of great evils as connected with the unsettled state of the fran-
chisein Ireland. The lion. Member who had just sat down,and
who had given as a new Member such promise of his future e_x-
cellence—( Hear, hear)—had read a letter to the House de-
scribing the proceedings that took place in the Registration_
swear that his land was of the value required,,h,y lad, in short, men
Courts. They had on the one hand the tenaanitidbreoeuteutphetor
the landlord to swear that it was not.
the voter. Then, by the presentiss.
good or not, and then they
ter is to deride whether the
mo,afs iatllneortdaersti
rote
eo
decide- whether the Revising
antelreo-f
springing up one after the other tovtsltoelteal!-Othieeyßceovutlsdietgoi3daerfreias-t
have the Judges called upon
often the whole subject had to
mmittee of that House. Now,
nvaers"fdiscreditable to a civilized coml.
society in
be Barristergo ne ot,v,
ears
againri ht ,
beforea ncl
was not that a state of 61
Walg. not that a state of things which
sap i to place one portion •of
oother? He thought that no man in that
try ?—( Hear, hear.
r)—ant
land—(h ear,
sere caused by the uncertainty of k
opposition to
deny
t)oputths: etOntlintdoa,t-laonnds
that such was the ease, and no person could
Par
House would
il,vastGe lednetti 1 tetteegtit ought
rate of value on whi hnow-
-hat t c the voting
ing " depended.— ( Hear. ) It was this difficulty
it Ireland,
i ascertaining the value that was the cause of all that he had
Lscribed, and such being the case, the question was how were
they to clear up those doubts? Could the difficulty as to the
construction of the words of the Act be cleared up? Should
deny that those elils
they take the construction put upon it by the Hon. Member
for Dublin, reckoning all the labour of the tenant, and thereby
giving him a beneficial interest,. or were they to take it as a
10/. beneficial interest beyond the rent ? If it were possible to
make the former the proper construction by a declaratory Act,
he should not approve of that course. because he believed it
would have bad consequences in Ireland ; it would, in fact, lead
to the consequences which the lion. 111erriber for Cavan had
told them would flow from the measure now before the House.
But then should they introduce a declaratory Act to say that
the tenant must be enabled to pay 101. more than the occupa-
tion rent, psrhaps his Noble Friend opposite would tell him
there was no necessity for that declaratory Act, because there
was such an Act already ; but what would his Noble Friend
sag with respect to the decision of the majority of the Judges
binding the minoi ity bound ? Ile had heard with dismay the opinion
put forward that the minority of the Judges were not weight by
o
the majority. If such an opinion weregiven
Butany
then came
there would be an end of society altogether.
to compel others'to act
the question, had the House the
subject? He feared that that
according to their views on the
was not the case ; but that was not all, the swearing
at tie registration was most contradictory, and had
they got rid of the root of that evil?—(Hear, hear.)
Hatt they yet
that
got rid of the real cause ofcontradictory
tei
h they had all -complained? In his opinion
swearing of whic
they had not. Did this contradictory swearing, begin • when
to the • • c as proper con,tructi mof the term
the dispute arot
beneficial interest? Why, notoriously this complaint existed
previously to 1829, during the system of the 40s. freeholders.
It existed between 1829 and the passing of the Reform. Act,
' ender the system of the 10/. freeholders. So notorious was
the abuse, that it was made use of as an argument. for the
change. And he thought the argument was well founded ;
he thought that the change did ;set rid of a great deal of
perjury. Under the words as they now stood he believed that
an Irish peasant, who felt that his whole existence depended
upon Isis maintaining possession of his farm—that he had no
other means of obtaining a livelihood—he believed that that
man, according to what he conceived to be the real interpreta-