The Sun.
London, England, 1841-05-12 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY MAY 12, 1841

nished last night to hear an Hon-:Gentleman on the
other side of the House running down the foreign trade
of this country. It was known that for the last six
years in the manufacturing districts wages were gra-
dually sinking, whilst the price of corn was gradually
rising. He had there a statement of the wages in Halifax
and Bradford for the last seven years, accompanied with
the price of corn, which he would read to the House.
The price of corn rose from 465. 2d. to 68s. 9d., in
the year 1834, in the space of a fortnight
and the wages in that time of the first class
of workmen fell from 10s. to 6s. 9d., of the second class
from 14s. to 10s., and of the third from 18s. to 13s. 6d.
When bread was cheap men clothed themselves. He
(Mr. Wood) heard from another gentleman that the popu-
lation in other towns were now only half fed, and for
that reason they were unable to purchase clothes, or
most of those articles which were the actual necessaries
of life. Now if trade was bad at home to what could
they attribute it but to the state of our foreign trade,
and the absence of foreign demand? And what was,the
cause of that absence of foreign demand? It was the
small amount of our exports to Brazil and other foreign
countries. He (Mr. Wood) thought the time was gone
by when it would be said that we would send out goods
to other countries without being prepared to take
something in exchange for them.—(Hear, hear.) This
small amount of our exports to those countries
was accounted for by the fiscal regulations of our per-
nicious commercial code, which were such as to prevent
our taking goods in return. There was most clear evi-
dence given before the Import Duties Committee, to
prove that the want of comfort, and in some instances of
almost the necessaries of life, experienced by the poorer
classes, was owing to the high price of corn. That was
not confined to the manufacturing artizan only, but ex-
tended to the agricultural labourer also, There was clear
evidence given by a manufacturer of Leicester, that at
the time when the price of corn was high, the agricul-
tural labourer could not afford to purchase necessary
clothing--the cheap wool and hosiery, which was one of
the staple articles of manufacture in Leicester. That
gentleman stated, as a matter of fact, that the commer-
cial travellers from Leicester, who went through the
country for the purpose of selling those articles of cloth-
ing, laid it down as a maxim, that the demand for
those articles in the agricultural districts was
slack in proportion to the high price of corn.
If it were true that the corn duties were a grievance to
the whole population,—if the restrictions on trade were
a grievance to the artizan,—he asked if they could look
at the depressed state of all classes, and yet refuse to go
into a Committee to consider what means should be
adopted for their relief ?—(Hear, hear.) He was ready to
admit that some protected interests might suffer. He
would admit further that some of the landlords' rents
might be reduced ; and, in calling upon others to forego
their protection, he was also ready himself to forego that
he had enjoyed.—(Loud cheers.) He might not value it
so much as others ; but, whatever it might be, he con-
sidered that his interests were more bound up in the ge-
neral interests of the country than in any individual
advantage he might derive from such protection.—
(Hear, hear.) One most essential feature of this pro-
position was, that it was not merely a measure for the
relief of trade, but a great financial measure, for tke
purpose of raising a revenue.—(Hear, hear.) He
was at a • loss to understand the objections tat had
been made made to it on the score of tinle"' on any
other principle than that they had originated in party
feelings. The Hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Col-
quhoun) had disclaimed them, yet the only remedy he
proposed was to remove the lleesent Government from
office.—.(Hear, hear.) That. might be a reason for the
vote he intended to give, but the Honourable Mem-
ber would hardly convince the world that his mind
was free from the influence of party considerations.
Anything more inconsistent than the arguments em-
ployed against this measure, he (Mr. Wood)
never heard. The Honourable Member for Beverley
said the country would be inundated with Brazilian
sugar, yet he said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer
world derive no revenue from the measure. On which
of these two propositions did the Hon. Gentleman mean
to stand ? It seemed to him (Mr. Wood) a matter of
no great difficulty to show that the expectations or his
Right Hon. Friend were not quite so unreasonable as
gentleman on the other side seemed to suppose. If
there were a decrease in price there would be an increase
in consumption, and if there were an increase in con-
sumption it followed that there would be an increase of
revenue. Hon. Gentlemen opposite disputed the point,
that lowering the price produced increased consumption.
But if they took a paper on the table of the House and
looked at the quantity entered for home consumption,
and at the column which contained the price, they would
see no instance in which•there was a remarkable increase
or decrease of consumption that was not accompanied by
a corresponding increase or decrease of price.—(Hear,
hear.) If this was so, he did not think the Chancellor
of the Exchequer could be accused of having taken an
undue estimate of the probable increase of revenue, when
he fixed it at so low a sum as 700,0001. If the Right Gen-
tleman (Mr. Goulburn) allowed this calculation to be cor-
rect, he should like to know on what grounds he
had stated the estimate to be utterly groundless.—
(Hear, hear.) But there was another question of great
importance for the consideration of the House, namely,
what was the proprosition which would be sub-
mitted to the House, if that of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer were defeated. He was sure that those who
were called upon to reject this proposition, ought to
have some intimation of what was to be the alternative.
—(Hear, hear.) He dared say the Hon. Member for
Whitby (Mr. A. Chapman) had been curious enough To
know what was the opinion of those around him on the
subject of 'the timber duties. Were they to look to an
increase of the duty on timber, or was their only object
to remove the Government in such a manner as to leave
their successors at liberty to introduce the same measure ?
In either hands he feared the fate of the Hon. Member
for Whitby would be the same. He did not deny that
he thought they ought to know how the revenue for the
year was to be made good. He had heard of some who
were only anxious for a quiet life, and who thought that
nothing was so easy as to meet this, like former difficulties,
by a loan ; but he must say that the only fault he had to
find with the financial policy of the present Government
was that they had carried this system too far. He
thought Lord Althorp's proposition for taking off the
taxes was a wise measure. He took off seven millions,
yet the actual loss of income was only two millions. The
next course adopted to meet the difficulties was a tem-
porary loan ; but last year the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer stated that it was impossible to pursue so discre-
ditable and ruinous a system further, an.',l came forward
with a proporition for increasing the taxation, in order to
make it equal to the expenditure
perhaps, only a temporary e, Pft the country. This Iv da,
7-pedient, but it could not be
denied that it had entirel7j,
failed, and that we ":eere, of ne-
cessity, reduced to ad-~pt some other mew-_,are. If, then
they would not ta ,
I:.e off direct taxation, the only other
mode was that
which had been repudiated, not only b
the present y
;,chancellor of the Exchequer, but even still I
by the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member
fmoorrTe
ps_tr ;ugly
mworth. If, then, the House was not prepared to
athrpt the Government proposition, he asked what was
.ae alternative to which they were reduced ? To pro-
pose the imposition of direct taxes was doubtless a
straightforward and honest proposition ; but, in the pre-
sent state of the country, would it be right to add to its
burdens before they tried the expedient of relieving
them ? Were they, then, to re-impose such taxes as that
on salt and candles, or a house tax ; or would they fall
back in time of peace to that which had been al-ways
held as a last resource, a property tax ? He, could not
agree with those who wished for a tax of that kind, I
believing it one which it was Most unwise and
inexpedient to impose in time of peace. But if'
they imposed that tax they would not relieve trade,
and if not he wished to kn
"Zak? to what source they were
to look for improving tie ,
was so to improve l
as revenue ? The only resource
and E trade to add to the revenue of the-
Customsthey would ..kcise. If Gentlemen would not do that
!eject the only mode of relieving trade from
a depression not temporary but arising from the compe-
tition 'of manufactures on the Continent, and which there
W 5 no other mode of putting down but by relieving our
trade from the fetters which encumbered it.—(Cheers.)
They would reject the only mode of relieving those who
were willing to contribute to the revenue of the country,
and would prevent the population ftom contributing,
as they were willing to do, to its indirect taxation.
Those considerations regarding the interests, the feel-
ings, the welfare, and the future prosperity of the coun-
try weighed with him so heavily, that he was not without
a hope that the House would take into consideration the
proposal of his Noble Friend. But however that might
be, he was perfectly convinced that the state of the coun-
try was such that measures like those could not much
longer be deferred.—(Ministerial cheers.) They might
be introduced by others—they might undergo some modi-
fication, but as the deeper ruin and distress of the nation
would make their consideration more imperative, he was
thoroughly persuaded that sooner or later, and at no very
distant period, Honourable Gentlemen who had come
forward as the strenuous advocates of monopoly in that
House, would find their expectations disappointed, and
that for the general benefit those Protecting duties must
be diminished, and that the interest of the country must
be preferred to the interests of a class,—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. GOULBURN said that when he reflectA that
the period at which he was called on to address the
House against a proposal for reducing the duty on
foreign sugar was that precise period which, by the Act
of Emancipation of the Negroes in the West Indies, was
marked out as the first year in which the slave popula-
tion of these colonies should enjoy perfet freedom ; and
when he reflected, also, that that period had been antici-
pated by three years by the voluntary act of those colo-
nists themselves—when he reflected on that circumstance,
he could not but consider what would have been the
feeling of that House and of the country, if,
when his Honourable Friend near him had
first proposed to the House the Act of Emanci-
nation. he had accompanied it by a proposition to
the effect, that as soon as the apprenticeship should P.'"
slave-grown sugar should be admitted wit),
into the markets of this court"
believed that if any m^-
political o*i--
would '

restriction

_.ay.—(Hear, hear,) He
whatever might have been his
' had stated that such a proceeding
_ na've been "adopted in 1841, the assertion would
nave been scouted and denounced as an imaginary ap-
prehension. He would have been told, that if Great
Britain, which `was doing an act of justice to the.negroes,
immediately on the accomplishment of that act were to
turn round and deprive the West Indies of the protec-
tion which tbeY-2had enjoyed in pur markets, she would
enter on a proceeding vvhich no Miernment could re-
commend,- mid -Which no 'louse of Commons could
sanction. -And although, with respect to the first part
of that proposition, they had been undeceived by the pro,
posals of the Government; he belieVed that • with regard
to the second part of the proposition their confidence
would still be unshaken, and that the House'of Commons
would not approve of the measure which the mittistry
submitted for their consideration.—(Hear, hear.) In
that view of the question it mattered not whether the
measure was brought forward as a financial one or as a
part of the budget ; for when he remembered, Ow 3 cir-
cumstances uncler;*hibii the Emancipation AO Waq
- .

passed, the House could pot, in his opiniqn, adopt such
a proposal. The measure had been brought forward as
one of financial policy; and the justification offered for it
was the extreme necessity of the country. He (Mr.
Goulbourn) did not then, any more than on a former
occasion, deny that w e had arrived at a crisis in the
financial affairs of thecountry which demanded the im-
mediate application of a remedy.--(Hear, hear.) lie
did not, and he could not, deny that ; but, while he ad-
mitted it, he was bound to say also that those who were
responsible for the crisis were bound to prepare an ade-
quate remedy.—(Cheers and counter cheers.) It was
not sufficient for the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, or the Noble Lord at the head
of the Government, to come forward and say that they
proposed a measure for the reduction of the duty .on
sugar, which would give them 700,0001. a year,
while they were absolutely silent as to the
mode ' in which the revenue could possibly be
so greatly increased. For his part he thought that the
explanation given on the subject by the Noble Lord the
Secretary for the Colonies was altogether inefficient.
Hon. Members on his (Mr. Goulburn's) side of the House
had been taunted by the Hon. Member for Halifax because
they adopted two inconsistent modes of argument. The
truth was, however, that they were driven into opposite
courses by the contradictory statements of Mimsters,
and the fault was not in the reply to the propositions but
in the propositions themselves. But he should like to know
in what mode the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed to
arise those 700,0001. from an alteration in the duties on
sugar. The Right Hon. Gentleman required no more from
the contemplated alteration than was raised under the
present system in the year 1828, when the duty on sugar
realized 5,000,000 L, whilst the .Right Hon. Gentleman
anticipated only 4,400,0001. under the new duty. He
was consequently persuaded that they might raise the
revenue to the required amount, without the nostrum
proposed by the Government. The only effect of the
contemplated measure wouldbe:an alteration, probably, in
the revenue ; but at the same time they would substi-
tute a certain quantity of Brazil or Cuba sugar for that
of our West India colonies, and would thus give a com-
mensurate incitement to that slave-trade which they
had been so desirous to remove ?—(Hear, hear, hear.)
The Hon. Member for Halifax had made it a great
ground of complaint against Members on his (Mr..
G.'s) side, that they did not enter upon the general
question of commercial policy. But he (Mr. G.)
did not think that they would be justified in entering
upon the discussion of any other question than that of
the sugar duties, which had been submitted to the consi-
deration of the House by her Majesty's Governine:;(._.
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman accused s` on
all reduction.
Bthe
he Oppositionwuu ld t sideell theonf
übmeinGgenotvosed to
ma"... that they by no
means resisted reduction, when `Lc was consistent with
financial and commercial o^:ficy.___.(llear, hear.) The
price of sugar was alreaLy below that to which the mea-
sure of theGovcianr..ent. would reduce it.—(Hear, hear.)
At the same time,, if they looked to the last fifteen years,
and took periods in which the consumption
of sugar was the greatest, the price would be found
to above the price upon which the Noble
L,,rd had calculated as that which would increase the
consumption to the large benefit of the revenue, which
Ministers were pleased to anticipate.—(Hear, and a
laugh.) It was his own firm belief that the consumption
of sugar would not be increased by any legislative enact-
ment beyond the present amount, and it was on that
ground he was of opinion that the rate of duty ought to
be left as it was. It had been asserted that they (the
Opposition had no sympathy with the feelings of the
poorer classes of their countrymen, and great pains had
been taken to contrast the unfortunate condition, and the
privations of the industrious classes in this country, with
the happy state of the slaves in the Brazils. But,
without regretting the happiness of the slave:„
or wanting a proper sense of the se.4.7erings
which his own countrymen had sometimes to endure,
he must say that he did not thific that the re-
duction contemplated in the duty -.:(pon slave-grown sugar
would tend greatly to imPro:ee the condition of the la-
bouring classes of Great. Britain.—(Hear, hear.) It had
also been stated that he, and those with whom he acted,
were indifferent to the importance of our foreign trade.
Now, for himself, he must say that he had, for the
greater 'Part of his political life, served with Mr. Hus-
kisson, and supported him in Parliament—(Hear)—and
although he had in the latter part of their connexion the
misfortune to dissent from that lamented friend on some
points, yet he had been so long known as a supporter of
his policy, that it could not reasonably be supposed he
was indifferent to the prosperity of our trade in any
branch. He was quite alive to the value, both of our
colonial and foreign commerae, and the only distinction
which he. would make in favour of either would be
grounded on this. question alone ; which of them em-
ployed the greater number of our own population ?
(Hear, hear.) Much stress had been laid upon the dis-
satisfaction with England which prevailed in Brazil, and
the importance of conciliating that country, before the
commercial treaty expired.--(Hear, hear, hear.)
But he did not ascribe the dissatisfaction to
the same cause. He believed it arose only
from our efforts to put down the slave trade.— (Cheers
from the Opposition)—and whether we conciliated the
friendship of the, Brazilians, by relaxing in those efforts,
or by the measure now before the House, the effect
would be the same, to cover this country with odium and
contempt.—(Cheers and cries of " Oh, oh !") The No-
ble Member for Halifax said that, as we already took the
cotton and tobacco of the Brazils, why should we refuse
to take dual'. sugar ?—(Hear.) But he shcail.a. remind
I-the-Hon. Gentleman that thia was a question whether
we should open our markets to a slave-labour product
against which they were closed before.—(Hear, hear.)
If they first abandoned the sugar duty, and then went to
Brazil for the purpose of obtaining additional powers
from that nation for the suppression of the slave trade,
They would be going with their hands tied, and without
the means of inducing Brazil to consent to any such mea-
sure. He would, therefore, recommend the Right Hon.
Gentleman to follow the example which his Noble
Friend had set in his negotiations with Texas, and
to which allusion had been made during the de-
bate last evening, and to pause before he made
reductions which must be injurious to our own colonies,
until he was certain that by so doing he could be securing
the paramount interests of justice and humanity._
(Hear, hear.) The Preside'll, of the Board of Trade had
given a brilliant, but at "tie same time a just description
of the great natural advantages possessed by the Brazils,
with a view commercial objects. But, while he had
been the: enlarging on the
peculiar advantages possessed
by t:atit foreign country, he had forgotten to advert to
.ne superior advantages enjoyed by a possession which
was no foreign country, the population of which was not
like the population of Brat% confined to six millions
of inhabitants, one of which' was a slave population, and
therefore unable to consume our manufactures so exten-
sively—but a country which was inhabited by a free
people in the highest state of civilization, with rivers
extending through a vast *d densely-populated country,
and which was fully equal to the Brazils in the possession of
the means of making a return for our manufactures.
He saw the Noble Lord the Member for Totnes whis-
pering to the Right lion. Gentleman, and no doubt he
was confidentially communicating to him, although at
rather a late period certainly, the information which
had been comm'anicated to the Import Committee, as to
the capacity of India to become a most extensive ens-
torn'a for our manufactures—(Cheers)—and that all she
required was the power of making returns for our efforts,
and that the only return she could make was hi sugar.—
(Loud cheers.) He would therefore ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman to have some corresponding feeling for India.
--(Cheers.) He was aware that many persons had em-
barked a large amount of capital in India ; by adopting
this course they would check the rising prosperity of
India. If they looked to the rising prosperity of India
—to the sources which India possessed for making'
us returns for our manufactures —he believed
that no better customer for England could be
found thao India--(Hear, hear)—and that India
would take, not like Brasil, our coarser articles only, hat
that she would take, also, our more elaborate manufac-
tures. When the 'Hon. Gentleman expressed his. fears
that, by giving an increased stimulus to the diversitai of
capital into India, did he forget that, by the measure
proposed, he would create a diversion of capital into
Brazil which would employed in the production of an
article which Meat necessarily give encouragement to
slavery and the slave trade, that British capital would be
made accessory to the forwarding of that traffic which
Parliament had so recently denounced ? Ile would refer
to the documents which find been last year laid on the
table by the Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign
Affairs, to prove this assertion. It would thus be found
that the Commissioners had reported that British capital
had been employed in the Brazils in forwarding the
slave trade, and in cultivating land by slave labour.
—(Cheers.) Surely the Noble Lord would acknowledge
the truth of the fact, and that it had been proved that
not in one, two, or three instances alone estates were
cultivated by Negroes newly imported by bletitls of
British capital. Thus British capital was diverted into
the Brazils for the purpose of being employed hi violat-
ing the laws of the country
_; and that was another argu-
ment for giving every possible stimulus to the introduc-
tion of capital into Indita.-='--(Cheers.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman the 3Nieniber for Edinburgh had said that the
question Of the encouragement of slavery ought not to
diveat tit din from their purpose on the present occasion ;
that according to his views we had performed our duty
on the subject when we had taken upon ourselves to ter-
minate slavery in our own territories, and to put a stop
to the slave trade, and that it was no portion of our
natural duty to prevent the slave trade in foreign coun-
tries, but that when we put a stop to slavery ourselves
we had done all that we were bound to do. He was
anxious to protest against such a doctrine.--(Flear.)
had been the fashion to say that the Whig Government
was the only Government which had proposed and exe-
cuted measures for the extinction a +"- '
they had 0rn,,,,--a

and executed 41

_ traLue. True,

bwo great measures
.ur tne abolition of the gave trade and for the abolition
of slavery, and he was free to admit that the proposing
and carrying of these two great measures did them
the highest honour— (Loud cheers) and he had
given his humble support to both those measures.
lie could not forget when these claims were made on be-
half of the Whig Government the part which had been
taken by a Government to which he had belonged. He
t'ould not forget that at the treaty of Vienna the British
negotiator, acting under orders from a Conservative Go-
vernment, brought all the Powers of Europe to a unani-
moUs declaration that they would exert their utmost
powers for the suppression of the slave trade.—(Loud
cheering.) Though he would not attempt to dis-
parage the acts to which he had before alluded,
yet he could not but think that the period would arrive
when the world would bless' the country which authorised,
and Minister who proposed, a declaration so honourable to
humanity—(cheers)--and he could never admit that we
had fulfilled the obligation which the treaty had
imposed on us by our Emancipation Act. No sooner
hid the Neg-ra Emancipation been carried than the Hon-
ourable Baronet, the Member for Oxford, called upon the
House to address the Crown, beseeching the Crown to use
every effort in its power to induce foreign Powers to con-
sent -to the abolition of the slave-trade. The . Noble

Lord had cordially united with them on that )
occasion as to the necessity of pursuing measures !
to give effect to the treaty of Vienna. The Noble Lord
had on this occasion not only given an account of the
steps which he had taken to attain that object, but he
also stated the difficulties which he had encountered. In
1839 an address from the other House of Parliament
had confirmed those views, and again the Government
had been called on to leave no means untried for the
suppression of that traffic which was represented as being
more especially carried on by Cuba and the Brazils
from which it was now proposed that sugar should
be admitted. (Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord
had on that occasion explained that he had received from
all those Powers expressions of their willingness to sup-
press the traffic, but that they used no efforts for that
purpose ; and when the Noble Lord should be next
called upon to urge upon those Powers the necessity of
taking more active measures for the suppression of the
slave-trade, he did not think that they would be
inclined to agree to his proposition, when they found,
by his own acts and speeches, he was encouraging
that very product, the cultivation of which gave the
greatest stimulus to the traffic. He was opposed to the
present measure, because he considered it useless as a
measure of finance, which could produce no revenue,
except at the expense of our colonies, to which it must
prove deeply injurious,and because it would give a direct
encouragement to slave labour, which he felt bound by
every motive of humanity, and every feeling of justice to
our own colonies, to discourage. For these reasons, he
should support the resolution of his Noble Friend.
Sir G. GREY said that, on the third night of this de-
bate, he was happy to have it in his power to impress
upon the House an important disclosure which had been
made by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, in the
speech just made to the House. It would be in the recol-
lection of the House that on the night when his Right
Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced
his scheme, the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite concurred
in the opinion that decisive measures must be token In
order to make up the deficiency. They cautiously re-
served, as they had a perfect right to do, their opinion on
the subject until this scheme had been breught before
„,'
them. Hon. Gentlemen on that side 1,.., in three nights'
debate, been anxiously expectin-
opinions of the Right Ho- -6 to hear what were the
whole financial statt• _. ..s. Gentleman, not only on the
without enter;-
, ~went of his Right Hon. Friend, but
h
.....g into minute details, by what means
theewould.-propose to supp the deficiency ; and what was
answer of the Hon. ientleman in answer to the re-
, peated questions proposed to him ?—(Hear.) Why, he
said he would just leave things alone.—(Cheers from both
sides of the House.) Such was the satisfactory announce-
ment made to the House by the Right Hon. 'Gentleman.
The attention of the country had been fixed on the sub-
ject of the Import Duties for the last six months, ever
since that much traduced, but valuable Report had
appeared, which united the whole country irrespectively
of political opinions.-7(Tory cheers.) He (Sir G.
Grey) thought the country would hear with anything,
but satisfitetioa that it was the intention of the Govern-
ment', who intended to succeed that now in existence
to leave the deficiency in the revenue altogether
untouched.—(Cheers from both sides of the House.) He
was sorry that in the speeches of the Right Hon. Gens
tlemen opposite, there had been no distinct enunciation
of the principle on which their opposition was
founded. The Hon. Member for Newark stated
to the House at the commencement of his address, that
he did not come there to discuss principles.—(Hear,
hear.) He (Sir G. Grey) would have thought, that on
a question of that kind, he at least would have been
anxious to propound some principle by which the con-
science of the State might be guided.—(Hear, hear.)
But the Hon. Member distinctly stated that it was
not a question of principle.—(" No, no," from the Tory
benches, and cheers from the Ministerial benches.) He
rested his opposition entirely upon the promise of a
greater supply from the West Indies during the coming
year than had been received for several years past. In
another part of his speech the Hon. Gentleman concur-
red with his Hon. Friend, the Member for the Tower
Hamlets, and had adopted all that horror of sla-
very which had exposed his Hon. Friend to the shafts of
malevolence from the West India body. It turned out,
however, that the principle was to be maintained
only when sugar was at 57s.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
On that side of the House he had no such • complaint
to make. The objections to the measure had been stated
clearly and distinctly, and Hon. Gentlemen opposite had
cheered their speeches. To what principle were those
cheers applied ? The Hon. Member for Lincoln had
said, treating this a whole, that if he admitted the prin-
ciple contained in these measures, they :would touch the
capital, and down would come the Corn-laws. That
having resisted it in one case, he would be in a better
position to resist it in the other.—(Hear.) Were Hen.
Gentlemen opposite prepared to adopt that argument ?
—(Hear, hear.) Would there be the same eagerness to
protect the West Indies, if they did not believe that this
was an outwork which must be defended in order to
maintain their position with respect to the existing Corn-
laws ?—(Cheers.) The Hon. Member for the Tower
Hamlets would not consent under any circumstances to
admit slave-made sugar into this country. Did the
Noble Lord or the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite
adopt that principle ?—(Hear, hear.) It would• be satis-
factory to the country to know from the Right Hon.
Gentleman who had addressed the House, put forward
as he was as the agent of the Right Hon. Gentleman and
of that great party with which he was connected, that
however extravagant the price of sugar might be, his
actc,rinin.tt.n wars to malco no nitoration, and that the
consumer should in no case have the benefit of competi-
tion.—(Hear, hear.) He must say that the extreme hor-
ror which had been expressed with regard to slavery,
coming, as it did, with a good grace from his Hon.
Friend, came with a very ill grace from 4ny of those who
joined in it. The •petition presented a few nights ago
by the Hon. Baronet opposite implored the house not to
incur the guilt of slavery—putting that forward as a plea
which was to excite the warm and generous feelings of
the people of England—feelings which had been evinced
in that profuse gift which had been so liberally showered
upon themselves. They knew that they could not main-
tain their position without enlisting those feelings; there-
fore they professed a great horror of slavery.-s-
-(Hear, hear.) He would ask his Noble Friend 'opposite
was it against sugar only that he intended to wage war ?
Would it not be extended to many articles the produce
of slave labour which were indispensable articles of con-
sumption ? The English were a great commercial peo-
ple. They had, infinitely to their honour, abolished
slavery, in spite of opposition for a series of years ema-
nating from that very party which now came before the
Rouse to complain of enconragement being given to slavery.
Having done that, having dissolved all connection with
slavery, was it to be said they were to sacrifice the in-
terests of the people of this country by waging war
against all slave produce ? The Hon.,Member for Newark
had endeavoured to draw a distinction between cotton
and coffee, and he stated that in the produce of those
articles there was great difference in the labour of the
slave—that was a distinction which the Hon. Gentleman
was more competent to decide than he (Sir G. Grey)
was.—(Cheers.) But that was a species of argument
which the people would not tolerate ; it was against
the principle of slavery the peoyle were determined
to contend, however mild it might be. Did his Hon.
Friend believe the people of this country would draw a
distinction between the slavery which existed under a
burning sun, and that, which was carried on in the.cotton-
trade in America ? The strength of the people on the
subject of the slave-trade bad been shown with respect
to the exportation of Hill Coolies, and even the Right
Hon, Baronet himself had rather an active part in check-
ing that which he thought tended to slavery. The Hon.
Member for Newark, had stated that they were aban-
doning a principle long acted upon with respect to the
slave-trade Ihe denied that they were doinc, so. No one
knew better than his Hon. Friend that those duties on
sugar were placed upon it long before the abolition
of the slave trade. There was nothing in the prohi-
bitory duties, except by the merest accident, which had
the effect of ehangino slavery or the slave trade. If the
House acted upon the principle laid down by the Right
Hon. Gentleniati, they must revise the whole commercial
tariff, hi order to exclude every article that was produced
by slave labour. Now, that he thought was Et principle that
could not be acted upon by a great commercial country ;
more, perhaps, might be done than had been in order tO
check English capital from finding its way into other
countries, for the puose of carrying on slave labour.
rp
It had been said that English money had found its way
into Cuba and the Brazils, in order to employ slaves.
If such was the case, it was a most shameful
transaction, especially if that money came, as had been
stated, from those who professed their abhorrence of it ;
but he thought he knew an instance where the name of
an Hon. Member had been seen to a Company working
mines in the Brazils where slaves were employed. The
Right Hon. Gentlemen here read a document to show
that slaves were employed in every one of the colonies
of the ceuntry, and observed that he thought the course
.
that naa been pursued by those who opposed the measure
proposed by Government arose from a political pretext.
lie wits very glad to see that even the Hon. Gentlemen
opposite had given up the petition which had been pre-
sented by the West India interest. Even the Hon.
Member for Newark, who was formerly a West India,
advocate, had now changed his interest, and was the ad-
vocate of the East India interest.—(Loud cheers.) • The
great object of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite was,' to
show that the supply from the East and the West In-
dies was to be enough for the demand ; but what was the
ground upon which the Hon. Gentlemen made such a
proposition ? We had now been four years acting under
the assimilated duties, yet the supply from that coun-
try had not increased adequately to the expecta-
tions form--.**ear he-ar.)- ril'!,'_, Question before the
House was, whether protection should be 5'.....1'. stituted
for prohibition.—(Lond Cheers.) It was said upon a
..
former Occasion, tuft the Iffilifirtai tIOTI
, of East India sugar
• - at
would pauperise Lae negiO, btit tie Would ask whether
s
that prediction had *ll borne out by the facts ? His
Right Hon. Friend had taken security against any
iast
mono-
poly, while at the same time he took securitytha
any scarcity that might arise. It was said
the negro
mea-
sure proposed by the Government would bring t thae''race back to a state of barbarism. - Thatalssd,ould indeed
not see in
be a matter for lamentation, but he c
what way the Hon. Members made out such a case.
the sac
had set . a noble example ,
mil ions, but in
fice, not only of twenty
consenting to bear a taxation of ten millions in the in-
creased price of sugar—(Cheers)—but was that sacrifice
to be made indefinite ?--(Cheers.) Was that House to
proclaim that the great experiment of emancipation had
been a failure ?--(Cheers.) Thej, would do so if they
decided that the West India colonies required so much
protection that a differential duty of 50 per cent. would
not do, that such a protection was not adequate. Hon.
Members on the other side, and among the others, the
Hon. Member for Newark, bad stated' that they
did not
come there to discuss principles, and th e Right Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Cambridge stated', that he
should not enter into a general and desultory discussion
of the subject. It might be a prudent course for them. to
take, but he believed the country would see through it.—
(Loud cheers.) They would duly appreciate theunwiLs-
lingness of Hon. Members opposite to grapple with the

principles laid down by her Majesty's Government. And
although they might dwell with satisfaction upon their an-
ticipated triumph, and the result, of the eoniWg division.;
he believed with his Hot ti'fiend the Member for Halifax,
that the ntOte the question was discussed, the better it
vothild be understood by the country.—(Renewed cheers.)
He believed, the better it was understood, the less
chance there was, whatever pretext or, guise tleyfight
assume, to enlist the Vnitifill'e6 tif the soon -thinking'
Tportion of the aimunity on their side of the question.
ilt inure the question was discussed, and the better it
was understood, the more certain would be the triumph of
the principles submitted to the House by her Majesty's
Ministers.—(Loud and general ehWiiiiti)
Lord SAND 'rose to explain, but was met with
tend &les of " Spoke,"
." Adjourn," &c., which ren-
dered it impossible to catch his observations distinctly.
We understood the Noble Lord to complain that the
Right Hon. Baronet had attilliuted to him sentiments
which he entitely disowned. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man hadinterpreted his cheers as if he had agreed in
the Right Hon. Gentleman's exposition of the sentiments
of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the Tower
Hamlets, which was not the case,---(Loud cries of
" Spoke," " Adjourt')
Mr. GOULTIUIIN also explained. The Right Hon.
tientleMan had imputed to him that he had stated that
in the present crisis of affairs it was necessary that
nothing should be done.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
What he stated was that they were in a crisis which de-
manded great exertion, but the additional revenue that
would be derived from sugar under the circumstances of
the qtuitity announced by the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Chancellor of the Exchequer to be, in the course of
arrival from the East and West Indies would be sufficient,
and he had said that that revenue would be obtained by
their doing nothing.—(Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Sir G. GREY in explanation,
Mr. BROTHERTON rose and moved the adjournment
of the debate.—(Loud cries of " Adjourn," " Go, on,"
" Divide, &c.; for some minutes.)
Mr. IRVINE said that it was not his intention to
have said a word on the subject, if he had not been
singled out by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir G. Grey)
to justify some remarks which were made in answer to
the , questions put by the Committee of which he was a
member. He (Mr. Irvine) thought that if the evidence
of Mr. M'Quean were read by every Member of that
House, it would give them a due and just account of
what the Westlndies have been and what they are now—
of what they were likely to become in the event of such
a measure taking place as was contemplated by her Ma-
jesty's Government. He was sure that if the Govern-
ment had that consideration which was due to the
country, and to the great - principles on which
.the country was hitherto governed they would not have
proposed the present measure. They would hesitate in
carrying that measure. He agreed with Mr. M'Quean,
that the West Indies would become a place of desolation
if the present Bill were carried. The question at present
under consideration was not, in his opinion, argued ac-
cording to true principles. He could not pass over the
accusation that he was connected with a gold mine
worked by slaves. It was perfectly true that, like a great
number of'persons opposed to the slave trade, he had a
share in property worked by slave-labour. He doubted not
there were many persons in the House as much concerned
in mining as he was, and he wished them joy of their
speculations.—(Laughter.) He hoped they would be
more fortunate than he had been.—(Loud laughter.)
Much was said about the blood he had squeezed out of
the negro, but he could squeeze no gold. He doubted
not that the Right Hon. Baronet would be glad of a share
in it if it were a profitable specUlation.—(Laughter.)
The House had paid a large sum, for . the emancipation
of the negro, but another Government had valued the
negroes at 140 millions, and if the House would do the
justice they were so fond of talking of, they would pay the
planters the other 120 millions.—(Loud laughter.) This
was a subject in which he had a deep interest, and he
therefore. trusted the House would excuse his obtruding
hiniself on their attention.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BROTHERTON moved the adjournment of the
debate, which was agreed to.
PUBLIC PARK AT THE EAST-END.

Mr. E. Ji STANLEY proposed that the House
should agree to a resolution authorising her Majesty's
Commissioners of Woods and Forests to devote the sum
of 100,0001. accruing from the sale of York-house, and
the interest received upon the sum of 72,0001. for which
York-house had been purchased, to the formation of a
park in the east-end of the metropolis. The site chosen
for the purpose was Bonner's-fields, and a portion of the
vicinity, consisting in all, of 290 acres.
Sir R. PEEL wished to know whether the money ac-
cruing from the sale of York-house would cover the entire
of the estimated expense of the undertaking. '
Mr. E. J. STANLEY said that the sale and the inte-
rest thereon amounted, as he before stated, to 100,0001.,
and he believed that sum would be quite sufficient for the
intended purpose.
Mr. KEMBLE thought that so large a sum should
not be voted at that late hour, and in so thin a House.

Mr. E. J. STANLEY explained that the resolution
would merely enable him to bring in a Bill for the ap-
plication to the object he had stated of the money ac-
cruing from the sale of York-house. The property was
not public`, but belonged strictly to the Crown.
Colonel SIBTHORP opposed the resolution.
Mr. E. J. STANLEY having again explained, the re-
solution was agreed to.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of,
and the House adjourned at a Quarter to One o'Clock.