The Sun.
London, England, 1841-03-24 00:00:00

EVENING EDITIO N.

The CHANCtILOR of the EXCHEQUER did
[ not intend to withdraw the account, which was in accord_
ante with the orders of the House ; but at the' lame time he
would have no objection to give as full an account of the
China expenses as was possible.
On the motion of Mr. HODGES the seconel reading of
' I the Parochial Assessments Bill was postponed tit; April 21.
SECONDARY PUNISHMENTS.
Lord MAHON rose to move—" That in the opinion of
this House, the large increase of the number of convicts to
be permanently confined in the hulks of Gi eat Britain, al-
though senteacei to transportation, in pursuaece of the Mi-
nute of the Secretary of State for the Home Department,
dated Jan. 2, 18d9, is highly inexpedient." He said he was
sorry to have found on former discussions on transportation
aud secondary punishments, that these was such a discre-
pancy between the indifference of the ileuse and the im-
mense importance of the subject. That iodifference, too,
had been shown whoever was the party bringing it under
the notice of the House. He recollected that two years
ago, when the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies,
made a speech upon the subject of two hours' duration, he
made it to a number of Members that scarcely made a
House. Still, though that was discouraging, he felt it to he
his duty once more to press the question upon the attention
of the House. Before doing so he had taken an opportunity
of consulting some Hon. Members, who were weal quali-
fied to give an opinion upon the question, as maay of there
had been long engaged in the administration cf justice as.
chairmen of Quart< r Sessions; and if the House would
grant him their patience for a time be would pr eve,
by the most irrefragable evidence, the danger of the
course pursued by the Noble Lord.—(l-lear, bear.)
In the Noble Lord's minutes, on the 2d of January, 1839,
he laid down this proposition—that the coei;iets sentenced.
to seven year.,' transportation should be, as far as practi-
cable, contieed is the hulks at the dock-yarde. This was
followed up by a letter from the Under-Secretary of'
State. The accumulation of convicts at the
Hulks was 35,000, whereas it would ap,near
that the number confined there the Ist of January,.
in the previous year, was 1,789; the increase, therefore,
was about double. From the report of Mr. Capper it
appeared that the number on the Ist of January last was.
3,553. Bet he must observe that a much larger increase
most be soon expected, for without adverting to the flue-.
tuating policy adopted on the subjec,, arid looking•
only to the practical state of things, he found.
from a calculation appended to the minute,.
that in the year 1837 the total number of convicts sen-
tenced to transportation was 3,600, and that of these, those
sentenced to seven years' transportation were 2,100% or
nearly tyre-thirds cf the whole. Therefore, the practieal.
state of things, according to the system of the Noble Lord,.
was that 2,000 convicts, who otherwise would have been
transported abroad were retained in the dock-yarda and
hulks at borne. After a certain number of years
to be again turned loose upon society: Teis being the
state of facts, the first objection to the proceedings
of the Noble Lord appeared to him to be the
undue extension of the prerogative of the Crown.--
(Hear, hear.) 'They were, no doubt, in conformity
with the letter of the law, but they clearly appeared to
him ( Lord M.) to be a violation of its spirit:.
Let them consider what was the object of the law in.
allowing this discretion to the Secretary of State..
It was undoubtedly that he might discriminate..•
between particular cases, and that in the event.
of early youth or extreme old age, or any other
:-peciil circumstance;, he might at discretion retain .
at home those whom the law bad sentenced to trans-
portation. But the law did not contemplate the wholesale
exercise of this power by the Noble Lord, or that the..
words " transperts fur seven years" should be con—
strued into " imprisonment in the Hulks at horne."-
Tlir.t was undoubtedly an undue extension of the powers
of the law ; and that was the first to which he wished to
call the attention of the House. The neat subject upon,
which he had to complain was the undue disregard of the,
evidence taken before the House of Lords. A Committee •
had sat in 1835 fur the pee pose of considering the whole:
subject, and that Committee had
pursued its inquiries , with
great diligence. It had for its Chairman the thus eof
Richmond—a sufficient guarantee that the inquiry had been
conducted laid, ciaigence talent, and skill That Corn-
mittee bad come to tl:e following resolution :—'"
From the
view which the Committee takes of the inherent defects
of the hulk system and of the mischief which it is ca;,,ailateet
to produce, tl:ej cannot but concur in the op 'mon
expressed by a Committee of the House of Commons 00
secondary punishments, to the effect that in future no persorr
sentenced to transportstion should be allowed torcmain per-.
aemeatly in the country, with the exception of these selected
for confinement in the Millbank Penitentiary, and that
henceforward the convicts established et the hulks
should be considered solely as an interrneeliete
station between the gaol and a penal colony:."
That was the recommendation of a Committee of the House
of Lords
e,mw,liiiattetihiittoeteuhrd after
ta;taaadniiy,ydcishns a f
uiceobwrws,
e?of,aiuu.cylretdul a
stnl,lltaehs
jekgr.
question
vthech
salettddeb i i
ogNnadl
Noble Lord
Lt
and
c o.doinquiryopposite
without
po s i itneitloa‘v%
having
Ili;,
ge
ernai determined
party
no
nceo al ylitznigd
understand the course of the Noble Lard, who might
say that he did not assent to an opinion adopted
by such men as the Duke of Richmond, or Lord
NVharncliffe; but on such a question as the present he
( Lord Matron) saw no reason why the Noble
Lord should not respect the recommendation in question.
Now he would ask why. v i,liout any subsequent inquiry,
this reccmmendaion cf the Committee for the discesnii-
nuacce of the hulks had been set aside ?

L-rd JOHN RUSSELL—The Transportztion Com-
mittee sat subsequently to that recommendation.
Lord MAHON would remind the House that the

Transportation Committee hud not en'etei into the
question of the hulks at all, nor was there one syllable of
their Report which could be considered as a commendation
of the hulk system of Great Britain. Perhaps the Noble
Lord might have thought that the Peers' Committee had
proceeded on their own judgment without nny ceidence,
but the contr.: ry was the fact ; they had examined those
persons who of all others were the most competent to form
an opinion on that subject. They had examined M. W.
Crawford, and surely the Noble Lord could not ob-
ject to his authority, seeing that the Noble Lord had
himself, in conjunctim wi.b his colleagues, ap-
pointed that gentleman to examine into the bulk
system cf the Uni:cd States. Mr. Crawford raid
the hulk system was very bad, and as a proof he stated
that having been on Ow Committee of the Refuge for the
Des' itute fors ears he had always found that parties !cleaved
from the hulks who applied for relief to that Institution,
lad invariably turned cut to be the lior,t characters, and
that he had frequently asked gaolors their opinion of trans-
portaiien, and they all stated it excited the greatest dread
in the minds of convicts. Mr. Newman, the turn-
key of Ncwgate, when asked if he thought ti ans-
portation excited dread in the minds of eriiiinalr, re-
tried that he thought it did, and that they gene.
ra'ly know that it was worse now than it used to be.
Perhaps the strongest opinion which he could adduce was
that of Mr. Samuel Elan, Secretory (as ate understood
the Noble Lord) of the Society fir Promoting the
Improvement of Prison Discipline. Being asked if he be-
Loved that the hulk system had Leon cf any ser-
vice, he replied that, so far from that, he be-
lieved it, to be most admirably ca'eukted to pro-
mote crime ; yet the system was relied on by the
Government as the means of checkingerime. Considerable

misapprehension had prevailed as to the object tobe obtained;
he bad seen many plans which had no other ends in view
than the recormation and improvement of the criminal,
for the prevention of crime was yet a higher object,
the hulks were entirely inefficient. He could state
on the authority of several respectable gentlemen, Mem-
bers of that House and Chairmen of Quarter Sessions,
that they did not inspire a sufficient degree of terror, and
were looked upon by the friends and relations of the criminal
as a light punishment compared with transportation. fis,
liey.al the records deposited in the office of the Secretary be-
ef State for the Home Depart meet would abundantly
justify this,r.
ts,c.layos_ns.:acrut:ciiinstometeit.ehonritHued might allude to the case
which cecurred last year. In that case petitions were
presented by the friends of the criminal, praying that he
might undergo his sentence in the hulks. The argument
was plausiLla, that by increasing the severity of the
prison discipline at home, you inspire terror, but
eie n t t 1 dtaeiuste,errevatfrodmi st a crime.nce,
practically the puni-liment of the hulks was insufli-
Hear, hear.) He be-
lieved that the minute of the Noble Lord had
been attended with very prejudicial effects, not only to
the comforts, but the health of the prisoners, and that
many had died from confinement in the hulks. He had
moved for certain returns, about three weeks sifter', which
would elucidate that point, but they had not yet been
laid upon the table, and he could not in their absence lay
further stress upon the reports that had been atb
ofdthe
he
(Hear, hear, hear.) In the Report of
Hulks, which had been lately placed
Hon- Members, it was stated that the
.in:p
of health and
the unnatural and constant depression
the hard la.
inthe
inspector
hosret a
regretted
hands
strength that was experienced
bour and rigorous discipline
strong words coming from
an
for several years past there
pointment. He added thatfthe
I sci,
it
~eesmfarmsi
aeul
lesnbn,dettssli
isto(ufitoriafo the.notion
ptroiiif
had been a gradual decay o
I:Es:et:ice: ern° gglti holdinguik
'f t h suchT
pherisseaonnweaerlrs'e-,
didstne
place in their le ' I
h had of late taken . gis
a_
provement which otrn;Paaffnodrd,
itnhossehofrat,ciltihtiees
hfourlkismi-n
They could not luso either the se-
parate whichiet. he
The attributed t
ethr,
isii
nbii
kluctiot:eet_dshyt(uodu
(Hear,
kos the,,frr:)terhs
hteporeersrneanretm.s.s)pse 0
system
Theyin,
:led
same
cidpee-a
tion on that subject.
parate or
ratedsimprisonmenton s practice
3i
noi yeas
a g.
.
les7oeaorttol:inn
re0111.1a:: beerihmaidnablese, been re-
moved
sylsttemap.pearTedhetarepnrt
milest- of ccean
!oiler so circumstanced
fI • punishment,
ofthe
tsocusrwaei
w—ith(
him that if they
could avoid suffering consistently with the main objects
of
the
e the
in..
regulations were prompted by
specters, however, distiuctly showed that even when
humane and benevolent motives, they
their
rolling between
most
00
uf :her 1;1
01 11 ga from
p t t Chrel
toofre-
quently productive of past - had been.
the
prisoners. and suffering to
pri.oners. He would take thseever'yof the Penitentiary at
Milbank, and it appeared from casetbe fourth Report of the
inspectors of prisons in I F 39, that in case the prisoners
were well conducted they were allowed to see their friends
e
once in six months during
the first year of their confine-
ment, and once in ever three months during the second
year of their confinemnt,
punished in the Penitentiary for the slightest offence, or
for no offences at all. There was for instance a punish..
meet awarded for speaking,
certainly could
tolconverse_a
might
the Magistrates had
stand. Let him not, He foutn_dbctehoaujtudspta,nrtotiteccusesivaldseae,rr.:y
humane, intentions, and that
crime, the nature of which beweiteirl
however, be misunderstood.h lie dirt
netat.rnadmdeeexdnpytehdei thate
nt . those
regulations
il e dr ei
dgwuni ltoai i
denyons
they had been sanctioned by the Noble Lord from similar
home required so mush strictness of disci-
motives ; but those very circumstances showed that Un-
inspired so little
.dread, that it was necessary to
p ii.e,
the system with in
carry out severity the manage-
pirisonmorent at
manage-
ment. if they compared that severity at home
with the rigour of transportation abroad, they
found that in many cases transportation was not the greater
punishment. He had another objection to imprisonment
in the hulks fora number of years.”-it was that it led to an

VENINQ EDITION.

3vidaiity of punishment. Indeed he could scarcely con-
-1.4 ',Ave any system which would weigh with a more unequal
--I:eecur on the different classes of offenders. Much had
heeen said against the inequality of the system of asiign-
.Teent, but that inequality was nothing when compared with
the inequality of imprisonment at home for a term of years.
Persons who were used to labour in the open fields felt the
punishment of confinement In a tenfold degree compared
to the artisan, who had been all his life used to sedentary
occupations. To a person of a quick and sensitive mind,
imprisonment was intolerable, while one of a less active
disposition regarded it as no evil, if his meals were suffi-
cient in quantity and of regular recurrence. The same ob-
jections applied to the hulks that did to imprisonment, with
this additional ono, that it. was impossible to introduce into
the hulks the recent improvements which had been intro-
duced into prison discipline. The hulks system had all the
evils of imprisonment without any of its advantages. An-
other objection to the hulks system was its expense.
He admitted that in such a question as the
present, economy ought not to be made a
paramount consideration, but yet it ought not to be alto-
gether set aside. The Noble Lord had himself calcu-
lated that the expense attending the transportation
of each convict was 151., and as on his arrival in the
Colony his labour more than maintained him, that
se was the whole of the expense. At the hulks the expense
o f maintaining a convict amounted, during three years, to
es 9/. a year. Now the Noble Lord calculated that his
eaeeour was worth 10/. a year, leaving 81. a year as the
actual expense, but that was assuming that every
corselet at the hulks was able to work. Now
Mr. Capper had _reported that a great number
of those at present at the hulks wore wholly
unfit for work of a laborious nature, therefore there
could be no set off in those cases against the expenses.
Again no account bad been taken of the expense of
fitting up the hulks, which he understood was considerable.
great misapprehension prevailed as to the comparative ex-
pense of transportation and confinement in the hulks. The
expense of the former was 15/. whilst that of the latter
was 100/. Tho Noble Lord would say perhaps that they
should take into account the expense of maintaining
the military and police establishments of the Colony.
That argument, however, had no practical applies.
Lion. The Establishment was in existence, and it
• ecsuld be a long period before it could he re-
d abed. He came now to tke main and paramount
al ejection to the system, an objection which no improve-
• ent in the discipline, no reformation in the crimi-
al 4 could ever remove.—( Hear, hear.) How were
ea, Iminals to obtain honest employment when they
we re discharged ?—( Hear.) The difficulties which arose
oa this point were of the most painful nature. He
wa I happy to learn by the report of the Chaplains, that a
gre at reformation had taken place among the prisoners.
ut , admitting the truth of such statements, and supposing
,thy
.erisoner to be a reformed character, how was he to get
to ? Who would give him employment? What
chance t ad he of obtaining a situation for which four or
five pew ens of unimpeachabie character were applicants ?
It often, occurred that women who had taken one false step,
who di :tested a life of prostitution, were driven to that life
becaut e they had ne other means of obtaining a livelihood.
The ?Coble Lord then proceeded to road portions of the
evidence of the Rev. Mr. Winter and Mr. William Miles
before the House of Lords, in illustration of this view.
Mr. Cotton, the Ordinary of Newgate, bore testimony to
the immorality of offenders after they had left the prison,
in csmsequence, in most cases, of the difficulty they expo-
rieneed in finding employment. Mr Capper himself, the
superintendent of the bulks system, gave similar testimony.
ile slid not think that after such evidence the Noble Lord
won Id be enamoured of the system. But the Noble Lord
himself, when referring to a similar system in France, said
thrt " that country was suffering from the mass of released
convicts who, after having been confined in gaol, again
joined the criminal part of the community, perfect adepts
in thieving and house-breaking. That must," he said, "be
the case in any country where crime has every temptation,
and industry is abundantly employed." These were the words
of the Noble Lord; and he (Lord Mahon) wondere.d bow
, after the expression of such an opinion, the Noble Lord
:ould sanction the introduction of a simiiar system into
t lis c. u :try. He would next direct the attention of the
I louse to the objections made to the system of transporta-
ti on. Ho should observe that he thought the Report of
tl e Committee of the House on that subject was liable to
to o mein objections. In the first place, :Veey teiseeed t
ps r icular acts, and deduced from the genersl condu-
ce -as. Ho moult give, as an instatce, the fact mentioned
of a clergymen having been implicated in some gross line-
lerity, from which the Hon. Member for Leeds had
lire-
-I~u seeded that the whole clergy of Australia were dome-
Tee sod. Rut the Bishop of the colony bad altogether de-
tie the accuracy of such a statement. In the next place,
it ai ared to him that the Committee had c onfounded the
alou of the system with the system itself. Notwith-
st ere flog all its abuses, he contended that the system pur-
sued in New South Wales bad reformed more criminals
th,,l could have been done in England. In order to make
one 1 his assertion. the Noble Lord quoted the opinion
o tl 'e Chief Justice and the Attorney-General of
Irc~s South Wahss, and also the testimony of seve-
ral ch neseymen who had devoted themselves to the
refer eaa tion of convicts in Van Diemen's Land.--( Hear.)
'llles•e 'were a athorities that ought not to be discarded
by th•- nen' ,e, toying ss-thay re, re t' e highest in the law
and thee Church. The colonies themselves were not
&gains st'leee'liscontinuarce of the prere it system. Could
the 11 onto believe that pecuniary considerations would out-
ecesesh_ ell the evils %hien were charged upon the system ?
That. statement was inat'e out by resolutions passed at
pub sic meetingi in all the colonies. and he did not le.11: ye
thet there was a rese ectable eel:mist, except, indeed, one
holding effiee under reed at the pleasure of the Crown,
who approved of the system of the noble Lord. He ac-
e es,cseed in the abolition of the assignment system of the
nAele Lord, and although he thought that the Noble Lord
h, :el acted hastily and without due notice in the case of
N v South \Yaks, still he thought the time had anised
on convict, should not be sent to that colony; but be
we decidedly cf opin ion th o the convicts might be very
bee, eEcially isercased in Van Die:nen's Land. These
w s' Fis practie. I views, hut he was anxious to kayo
ti, a n where they ought to ret, with the Government, Lot
lee 1, ad thought it his duty to enter so fully into the cpees•
thee. Upon these grounds be called upon the House to
eIE rot the rosoluti in of which he had given notice.
!Vic. PAK ING "PON ascended the motion.
1,,0rd J. RUSSELL concurred in the regret expressed
by this Noble Lord, that that subject did not excite more
attrretien in the House. It was a most important one.
But after listeningeo the speech cf the Noble Lord he
(Lord J. Ru2--eell), did not think there existed such a
diff-rence of opinion between them as the terms of the
motion would appear to indicate. The Noble Lord die
not deny the great evils of the assignment system. and he
(Lord J.. Russell) did not believe that the Noble Lord
could i• ,duce the House to Ci tab! ish a system of slavery
in Am. cralia so shortly after they had abolished it i, their
other colonies. The Noble Lord seemsd to thick Celt
theses had been no inquiry since the Lords' Committee
had. set ; in that he u a mistaken, for a Committee of that
House hod set for two ye, r.; they tcok a great deal of
scvitlence, and came to re'olutions upon v, thee was no
difference of oeiniore He did not beiese there was a
cliviAnn in the Committee, although it was composed cf
Members of various political opinions, as well as of
these who had paid muck attention to the subject,
Tiss..se gentlemen came to certain resolutions, the effect of
villich was, that transportation, to certain parts of New
:South Wales and Van Diemen's Land ought to be dis-
enntinued, and that it should be confined to parts net
:settled. It was upon those resolutions that he had acted.
'The Noble Lord said there was a great objection to the
.punishreeat of the hulks, No doubt there was; but when
they had once stated that capital punishment was not to be
eased as an ordinary punishment in this country, there came
.a punishment to which there was another sort of objection,
,and which could not be entirely got over. This punish-
:meet was liable to certain disadvantage', but, moll they
ehowed some better system could be established, there was
no foundation on which the House c mild come to a decision
os the subject. No doubt confinement affected the health
of these persons, but the House must, at the same time,
keen in view that the object of the punishment was to defer
from crime ; and if the Noble Lsrd told him (Lord J.
Russell) they would remedy these evils by sending them
$o New South Wales, where they would get permanent
cflaploymeet, with the prospect of making considerable
fortunes, he replied they would then incur another objec-
ti at the opposite end of the scale; they would
cease to have a punishment which would have the
effect of deterring from crime; and, by preserving the
health of these persons, they would is effect tell a
great proportion of the population et' the country who
were in want that by committing crime, they would have
a good prospect of making their situation better.—( Hear,
hear.) Another effect which the Noble Lord stated was,
that they could net find employment for those persons
'Olen they were leaving the hulks. That was a recessary
effect its a settled country like this, and one which they
could not very
well remedy, but if they said that every
person who committed a crime should be sent to a country
wbere he would find employment. They would get rid
indeed of tee one objection, but they would failinto the
other to which he had alluded. He did net wish to enter
into the great subject of transportation, because it had
been pone into with great care by the Committee. With
regard to tho expense, the account given by Mr. Capper
of 4th Feb. 1841, stated that the expense of the felons
in the hulks was 30,233/., for the total value of their labours
3274174 It was not therefore so much as the Noble Lord
lead said. With regard to the whole question, he thought it
wee one of degree between the Noble Lord and himself. The
Noble Lord did not approvb of the old system, and was not
prepared with any improvement on the present. It was
one_ by which we got rid of the evil of making a colony a
depot of the crime of this country. Though anxious to
diminish transportation he (Lord John Russell) had not
agreed with Archbishop Whateley and others that it ought
abolished,to be entirely abolished, and on the contrary, a great num-
ber were still sent out, to the amount of 2,000 each year.
He quite agreed with the Noble Lord that the sentence
oadured by the felon should be such as was pronounced by
the Judge, and not by the Secretary
of State ; but he did
not think the system of commutation was carried on in
the wholesale manner which the Noble Lord bad stated.
For these reasons, therefore, he should move the previous
question.—( Hear.)
Mr. PAKINGTON said, having the honour to fill
the situation of Chairman of Quarter Sessions he hoped
to be allowed to express an opinion on the subjects He
thought great praise was due to the Noble Lord for the
mprovements that he had effected on these subjects, but he
must say he thought the Noble Lord had given a very
unsatisfactory answer to the case made out by his Noble
t
Friend. He was happy to hear whtaot heaffdecfatlltehne
from
h
sentence e
Noble Lord respecting carrying into
pronounced by the Judge. He thought this was essential
to the ends of justice. Another objection to the present
system was the great uncertainty of cart ying into effect
the sentences at Quarter Sessions. The moral effect of
this was very
bad, and the practical effect was to reverse
the
ejecsetinor theil Cekourt He threw these out as strong
system
of the commetaelo,:u his. mind to this wholesale
ob-
jection was, that e punishment. Another graver
the confinement of large bodies of per-
sons in the hulks was • .
health. neeensustent with their personal
nth r Power
point to which he would ad-
war exercised by lie seeratary of