The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-20 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SA.TITRI)AY MORN FEBRUARY ‘Jto 1847.

IMPERIAL PA iiLIAME-i-dT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 19.
Tl.,e LORD CHANCELLOR touk his seat on the Wool-
Tack at Five o'clock.

CROWN LANDS, ROSCOMMON.the •
of Marquis of WESTMEATH moved for returns
the amount of the costs incurred in the manage-
r; Put of the Crown estates in the county of Rwicommen.
is object in moving for these returns was to show to
wir Lordships the s;.ate of land in Ireland. The estates
11 'question comprised about 200 acres ; and hk believed
those returns were granted that he should be able to
sihow their Lordships that for the last fifteen years
not one farthing of rent had b-en paid, and consider-
re costs incurred in the managertint of those estates.
asked for an improvement of the law for the sake of
the people themselves, for he believed that it entailed the
'greatest evil upon them. It migut do very well for pro-
perty situated in Middlesex, but was by no means
adapted for the state of things which existed in Ireland.
The motion was agreed to.
DISTILLING FROM SUGAR BILL
Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from the
Anti-Slavery Society against the use of sugar
in distilleries, as they believed it would tend very much
to encourage aiavery by the increased stimulus it would
Ive to the growth of sugar. Since last autumn, when
the late change had been made in the differential duties
?LI sugar, the rage for sugar planting in Brazil had pro-
needed to an incredible extent, and the consequence
had
been that the coffee plantations had been greatly
neglected.

POOR-LAWS.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition
d.frnal the rate-payers of Killarnu, complaining of the
Aorty-seventh section of the Irish Poor-law Act.
GRAND JURIES (CORK).
The NOBLE MARQUIS also presented a petition from
4,he Corporation of Cork, praying for the equalisation of
the grand jury cess rate in that county.
REGISTRATION IN SCOTLAND.
The NOBLE MARQUIS (in the absence of the Duke of
Sutherland) presented a petition from the Presbytery
of Caithness, praying that births, deaths, and marriages,
aright be registered in Scotland as in England.
INDIAN RAILWAYS.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH wished to know
'whether the Noble Marquis (Lansdowne) was pre-
pared ,to lay on the table copies of the communications
which had taken place between the Government of this
country and the shareholders in certain Indian rail-
'Ways, with respect to the granting of loans for their
construction. The Government had opposed, on finan-
cial grounds, the granting of money for the construction
of Irish railways ; he was, therefore, anxious to
know whether the Government—or rather the Go-
vernment of India—intended to act, on a si-
milar principle, withrespect to Indian railways.
The reason fur his asking this question was because of arumour which he had heard
some short time ago, and
w
hich, if true, showed that the interests of India were
mu much injured by the course which was at present pur-
sued,lt was well known that money could be raised at
Zi per cent. to a considerable
extent, for several
effect
upon the money market in this country ;
India, at the present moment, he regretted
to sayVer that money could only be raised at 5 per cent
y recently the Government of India found them-
selves compelled to open a new loan at 5 per cent. A
return of four per cent. was guaranteed to those specula-
tors who were interested in the loan. Their Lordships
twonld at once see that if the Indian Government wished
to return to the four per cent. loans, it was impracticable,
as the same amount of interest was now guaranteed
'O,ll railways and upon the same security, while
the many advantages of patronage,
and, he regretted
to lay, of the jobbing system,were secured to the railway
proprietors. If a 5 per cent. loan were now opened, if
it once reduced the premium upon the capital advanced
upon former 5 per cent. loans, and the 4 per cent. went
own to 10 or 12 discount, it would produce the most
serious losses to the Indian capitalists.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, that if the
Noble Lord had given notice of his question, he would
have been better informed on the subject. The state et
the case was this. Two months had elapsed since the
Board of Control made known to the Indian Railway Com-
pany upon what terms and conditions certain advances
could be made to pay for those undertakings. No
answer had been received from those com pan.es—a
pretty strong proof that the terms were not considered
sufficiently advantageous, or they would at once have
closed with them. As soon as the correspondence was
in a
Rouse complete state, it should be laid on the table of the
After a few words from Lord BROUGHAM,
The Duke of RICHMOND said that with regard to
these measures he was very sorry that such an example
had been set, as the people of Ireland would be furnished
with an additional argument for a repeal of the union,
as offers of the assistance which had been refused to Ire-
land, had been made to India.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, that when the
correspondence appeared, the Irish people would not
have any additional argument for a repeal of the union.
The Earl of RIPON said, that when he was in 1844, Pre-
sident of the Board of Control, the Government had declared
itself favourable to the general principle of the establish-
ment of railways. A deputation had called upon him, and he
informed them that he concurred in the general impression
that prevailed of the utility of the railway system in India, and
that he was sure the Government would give it their support.
They (the deputation) then intimated that that support would
involve pecuniary assistance, and without it they doubted
whether they could go on. In that case, he thonght the Go-
vernment ought to issue a commission, and a gentleman was
accordingly appointed who reported upon the subject. He
conctiived they ought not to do more for Ireland than they had
already done for India.
The conversation then dropped.
Lord AS BANK RETURNS.
HBURTON then moved for the returns of the
acco
ou.cnt of capital or stock authorised to be raised by any rail-
wayapanies by any Acts passed during the two last sessions
of Parliament, of the amount of money actually so raised, and
of the amount remaining to be paid. Also, account
the sums authorised to be borrowed by all railway
comp; 'tiles under the '
were given them by Acts
of th p
e two last sessions of Parliament. Also, ac-
ount of all sums borrowed by all the several railway companies
from the period of their commencement to the present time ;
distinguishing each year, and stating the amount of such debt
still ciutstancling ; stating also the rate of interest at which
such bums were borrowed, and the several periods when the
moue yso borrowed is promised to be repaid. Also, an ac-
count of the amount which each of the several railway cons-
panie s have still power ;to borrow by their several Acts of
core i.ament. And also, account of the proposed amount of
capital, and of the proposed power of borrowing, of all
rail says of which notice has been given to the Railway Com-
:nisi 'loners, of Bills intended to be presented to Parliament
duri ing the present session. Account of the value of
all
_gold and silver coin and bullion in the Bank
of England at the several periods when the returns are
mad e public, from the Ist January, 1846, down to the latest
perm id. Also a monthly return of Exchequer-bills, held by the
Bane of England during the same period. Also return of the
amot tnt of discounted bills by the Bank of England during the
same period. And also, return of all investments by the Bank
of E ngland in the bonds, debentures, or other engagements
for L orrowing money of any railway company; stating the
periods of such investments, the rate of interest at which they
mere made, the periods of promised repayment, and the sums
still r ernaining due to the bank.
This Earl of CLARENDON said that with regard to the
first .and second returns moved for by the Noble Lord, there
could be no objection to the granting of them, but as regarded
the of '.her three he did not conceive it fair to the Bank of Eng-
land t o give an opportunity to joint-stock companies and other
bankit ig rivals, to know the whole of their investments and
privats- business—business the particulars of which was even
denied by the directors to their own proprietors. The Noble
Lord 0 ten read the 6th clause, to show what returns they were
compel led to make weekly. Parliament had, therefore, limited
the am ount of information necessary to be published, and
those returns were accordingly published by the Bank of
England every week. If these returns were granted, a pre-
cedent it light be established for calling upon the Bank of England
to give i nformation as to the amount of assistance furnished by
the Baal cto each merchant or other party. The Noble Lord
had not brought forward any grounds for his motion, and he
thought that if the returns were granted, it would be con-
sidered as a slur upon the conduct of the directors, and detri-
mental to the interests of the Bank. He hoped, therefore,
that the Noble Lord would not press his motion.
Lord ASHBURTON thought, that considering the present
state of the circulation, it was necessary to have the returns he
had n toyed for, in order to show to what extent
the c irculation had been affected by the new
species of public securities by investments in railways.
It was quite true that Parliament ban stated what
returns were to be published, but that was no reason why the
director a of the Bank of England should refuse, out of cour-
tesy, to, grant those returns, which were necessary to assist the
Governs neat in conducting the financial affairs of the country.
Lord MONTE AGLE observed that he did not think there
woald b e any objection on the part of the Bank to grant the
returns. The returns, if they were furnished, would afford the
House the means of judging of the vast extent to which
railway speculations were being carried, and would,
perhaps, lead them to be chary of passing such
a large number of Bills, within a limited period,
as they had been in the habit of doing. Yet he did
not think. the returns necessary as his Noble Friend seemed
to him tr, possess all the knowledge which was necessary for
the (Nei :t which he had in view.-
Lord BROUGHAM said those who did not possess so
much knowledge of the Proceedings in the Bank parlour''
p 1 '
as his Noble Friend (Lord Alonteagle) could not -forrm,
an
accurate opinion on the subject. The withdrawal of
the
motion would not preclude the Bank of England from volun-
tarily offering the desired information; but if they did not do
so he should think they had some motive for withholding it.
Lord II.SHRURTON begged to be understood as casting
no reflection whatever upon the Bank, for he was convinced
that they were a highly honourable body. He called for this
information with other views, and not with the view of in any
way impugning its credit.
After a few words from the Earl of RADNOR the motion
was agreed to.
LAST DAY FOR APPOINTING RAILWAY COM-

Lord REDESDALE moved that no Committee should be
appointed on any railway Bill after the sth of July neat.
The motion was agreed to.
Lord STANLEY presented two petitions. The first peti-
tion was from a large number of farmers and landed prop ititors
against the use of sugar in rtisttllenes ; the second was from
several distillers in Scotland, praying that their Lord-
ships would not sanction a lower rate of duty
than 4s. 10d. per gallon on rum.
SUGAR BREWERY AND DISTILLERY BILL.
Earl GREY presented a petition from the Standing orn-
rnittee of the West India planters, praying for the remission of
all duties on sugar used in distilleries and breweries.
Lord MONTEAGLE presented a similar petition from the
agents of the %Vest India planters to the same effect.
Lord CLA RENDON presented three petitions, one from
the Nlauritius association ; one from the members of the London
W. st India and China Association; and one from the merchants
and traditis oJ London. to the sane effect.
Lord MOUN f CASH EL presented a petition front the
agr!culttnis.ts of Macroom, in the county of Cork, praying
their Lordships to protect agricultural interests against the
operation's of the Brewing and Distilling Sugar Bill now be-
fore the House.
The Earl of CLARENDON said that it had been Bald that
this measure ought. to he a ieraporary one, and that it had been
iun€,d in the measures of the Noble Lord at the head of the
with Otter measures of a temporary nature. No, v.
although there existed a most distressing famine in Ireland,
and he believed that this measure would, if passed, tend to set
free a great quantity of food for the people of Ireland, still he

would say, that if that distress had not existed, the Government
would have been bound to introduce this measure, in conse-
quence of the pledge given at the close of last session by her
Majesty's Government. The colonists of the West Indies,
therefore, claimed this Bill as a right. If the present measure
were to be a temporary one, and only to last till next Septem-
ber, there would be no security whatever to the brewer, the
distiller, or the colonist, and the greatest amount of evil would
result from the speculation to which the measure would give
rise. He would explain to the house the operation
of the proposed measure. The duty on malt was
21s. 60. per quarter ; the duty upon 180 lbs. of sugar, which
would be equivalent in yield to one quarter of malt, was `92s. 6d.
He was not, however. quite sure but that from the improved
modes adopted by the brewers, he had reouced 1801bs. of sugar
to an estimate mach ton low to be compared with a quarter of
malt. He believed that 200, or even 2101bs. of sugar was
nearer the mark. If, therefore, 1811bs. of sugar (taking the
lowest estimate), paid 225. 6d. duty, and one quarter of malt
paid 21s. 90., it was clear that the Government would be a
loser to a trifling amount-9d. upon each quarter. He did not
think. however, that sugar could ever be substituted for malt,
except. when malt was excessively high, or sugar exceedingly
low. Malt was from 87s. to 89s. per quarter, and already the
price of beer had been raised Id. per pot, at the rate of 25 per
cent., which to a labouring man was no small consideration.
Taking the price of malt at 845.. deducting, however, from that
the sum of 2s. 60. as allowance for grains, and the price of
1801bs. of sugar, at 755. 6:1., it would cause a saving to the
brewer of the sum of els. upon each quarter, which to the
consumer would make a considerable difference. It was the
wish of the West Indians, that molasses should be admitted
equally with sugar for the purposes of brewing. The Govern-
ment, however, did not think it expedient to accede to those
wishes. The duty on molasses was ss. 9d., and if 2521b5. of
molasses equalled one quarter of malt, the duty, would require
to be raised from ss. 9d. to 9s. 4d., in order to place them
upon the same footing. Molasses varied very much
in the amount of saccharine matter, and different
rates of duty would be required in order to make
it equivalent to the rate of duty now imposed ; and
great expense to the State and inconvenience to the brewer
would be caused by the Excise officers, whose supervision
would of course be required. Now, with respect to the use of
sugar in distillation : the present amount of duty levied upon
spirits equalled a sum of 5,200,0001. The great obstacle
hitherto to the use of sugar in distilleries has been the amount
of duty levied upon it. British spirit was produced from a
mixture consisting of 2 parts malt, 1 part oats, and 18 parts
of barley ; and the spirit the result of that distillation was
7s. 10d. per gallon. It was now proposed that
the duty upon the sugar should be the same
as upon the spirits distilled from grain. In order
to carry this into effect, it was proposed that the dis-
tiller should take the sugar out of bond, paying the duty upon
it, and when be paid his spirit duty an allowance should be
made to him equal to the difference of the sums he had paid
upon the sugar and the sum he would have had to pay upon
the malt. Now the quantity of spirit produced from sugar had
been proved by experiments made in the years 1799. 1812,
and 1831, by the excise officers themselves, and also by a most
eminent chemist, that the yield of 1121bs. of sugar was equal
to 11} gallons of spirits at proof. Upon this 11} gallons of
spirits produced from 112Ibs. of sugar a drawback of 12s. 100.
would be allowed, the duty upon that quantity of sugar would
be about 14s. in ordinary times, when the price of barley was
305., he did not think, therefore, that agriculturists would have
much cause for apprehending a diminished consumption of
barley. Believing that it was most expedient to pass the mea-
sure without delay, he hoped the House would go at once into
Committee on the Bill.
Lord STANLEY hoped before he proceeded to comment on
the statement of the Noble Earl that he should not be consi-
dered disrespectful if he drew the attention of their Lordships
to a portion of the speech delivered by the Queen at the com-
mencement of the session. Her Majesty in her speech stated
" that it would be the duty of Parliament to consider what
further measures will be required to alleviate the distress," and
recommending Parliament " to take into its serious consider-
ation whether increasing for a limited period facilities for im-
porting the corn of foreign countries, and the admission of
sugar into breweries and distilleries, might not be beneficial."
It will not be denied, that when Parliament met, the inference
to be drawn from that recommendation was, that
her Majesty's Government would advise Parliament, with a
view to the mitigation of the existing distress, to adopt mea-
sures to promote a freer admission of corn tree of duty, and the
freer admission of sugar into breweries and distilleries ;. and he
could not but repeat the regret which he had al-
ready expressed, that this Bill, unlike some of the others,
proposed for th- purpose of alleviating that distress, should par-
take of a permanent instead of a temporary nature.-(Cheers.)
He was sure every one in that House would do him the justice
to say, that the temporary measures propounded by the Go-
vernment had not met, in that or the other House of Parlia-
ment, with any factious opposition, or that their progress had
been unduly retarded.-( Hear, hear.) He thought the Go-
vernment itself would admit that no disposition had been
shown to interrupt for a single moment the passing of mea-
sures which were proposed for the purpose of remedying
the distress that prevailed.-( Hear, hear.) The utmost
be contended was this-that if his Noble Friend had intro-
duced this as a temporary measure there would have been no
occasion for discussion-no occasion for a Select Committee
If fortwhaeryd had
intoa
at hae
temporary mer tsof
int heeasoprreo vi sion.
brought
tis ot
a t ienclq ut
ire
et
i
t
the sole purpose of alleviating that distress, he was satisfied
with respect to this and the other measures no opposition
partake of a temporary character-that it was
would have been offered.-( Hear, hear); but when he found
that it did not
not brought forward as a remedy for that distress-
or, rather brought forward under cover of that dis-
tress, for the purpose of altering a great portion of
our commercial policy, he did not think he went too far
in saying that the slight examination to which the Bill, if it
had been temporary, would have been subjected could be fol-
lowed, and that they should not do well to pass ouch a measure
without they had the fullest information as to the effect which it
would have upon the sugar producers of other countries, and
upon the barley growers of this. Another course was adopted
in 1795 and 1803, and upon many subsequent occasions, when
it was found that a sufficient quantity of grain could
not be obtained for the purposes of brewing and
distilling, as the measures brought forward at those
periods for allowing the use of sugar were tem-
porary. If the Government had come forward and said, as
other Governments had said in proposing similar measures, that
the stock of grain was small, and that it was desirable to econo-
mise the use of grain in .breweries till the next harvest; he
should not have opposed a measure which proposed to admit
sngar in breweries and distilleries in lieu of grain. No diffi-
culty would have been experienced in obtaining the sanction of
Parliament to such a measure. His Noble Friend had talked
about a pledge which was given to the West Indian interests
last year; but he (Lord Stanley) knew of no pledge, nor of
anything the Government had for making a pledge, that in
this session measures would be proposed for facilitating the
admission of their sugar into this country for brewing and
distilling. A pledge given at the end of last session that those
interests should receive the early attention of Parliament this
session was not tantamount to a pledge to bring forward such a
measure in this. But what he (Lord Stanley) said was-do
not let them take the necessity of this measure from the
Government; but let them see whether they had justice and
policy on their side, and whether what was declared by them
to be a great boon would not be found to be absolutely nugatory
and ineffectual, hut rather a boon to the foreign producer
of slave grown sugar.-(Hear, hear.) The West Indian
interests would gain nothing, as but a small portion of their
sugar would be imported, and the gradually diminishing rate
of duty upon all sugars would more and more bring producers
of slave-grown sugar into competition with West Indian sugar,
and with the producers of barley in this country. The Noble
Earl, in speaking of Canadian corn, alluded to a speech deli-
vered by him (Lord Stanley), in which he expressed an
opinion favourable to putting the producers of that corn on an
equal footing with the producers of cern at home. He had no
doubt that he stated, on behalf of the Government, that a
pledge had been given that the subject should receive conside-
ration in the interim, and that a motion, which was then be-
fore the House, was withdrawn on that understanding, but
when and where the pledge he had already referred to was
given he was at a loss to know.
Lord GREY said it was given in the House of Commons
during the progress of the Sugar Duties Bill.
Lord STANLEY proceeded to comment upon the state-
ment made by the Noble Earl that " restrictions upon trade
could not be permanently maintained, and that they could not
permanently place duties on their own colonies," Now he
(Lord Stanley) thought the Government were, in speaking
thus, following a course, the progress of which they should
watch with jealousy. First of all, measures had been passed for
abolishing the protection which the British agriculturists had
for years enjoyed, using as an argument in favour of it that a
measure to cheapen the price of sugar should follow it ; and
now the West Indian interests claimed a similar advantage.
He watched the measure with much jealousy owing to what had
taken place during the last few weeks. At the commence-
ment of the session they were told that a temporary suspension
of the navigation laws was necessary. There was not a dis-
sentient voice to its passing as a temporary measure ;
but what followed? A motion was made in the
other House of Parliament on the ground that,
as all other restrictions had been removed, that the ship
owners had no right to maintain a monopoly; and that the
colonies
anynat had a right
ion;
but
thet taorgroemcei
env h
argument was
wtawaer produce
hrieicehei hyeadd,m in the
anaddetthheeshiprirps of
noapvo
swi tho:tn wiere ewr
was,
s dwooput el
dd , tohaawt
epon
pr
to taewc tai
as an useless relic of former
times. But what course did her Majesty': Government
pursue? They gave the proposition their corial support. and
consented to the appointment of a Committee. Sometimes
when a question was brought forward for examination on
ou
thought
it convenient the
ofoanctvsaieridt
to refusefiguresi an inquiry.thenvolveltto be
their co
removed, Govern-
mentace account
g
produce of the Although
theand
tNoblehat
theyL ocrodul
could
statedn ot thhuatt restrictions
the
o
by high duties, yet in the third clause of the Bill it onies
that if any brewer should make use of any appearedlaa e
,
sugar, syrup, honey, except on what the duty had laseesn,
paid, or having them in his house, should be liable to a fine of
2001.-( Hear, hear.) He did not say that that was an im-
proper restriction for the purposes of revenue, yet this was
consonant with their free trade notions.-( Hear.) If the
principles of free trade were to be held sacred, he saw no
reason why,at least, they should not be extended to home pro-
duce. -( Hear.) If the tigures of the Noble Earl were cor-
rect, the measure could hardly alleviate the present distress, at
the present price of malt and barley. What he wished to urge
upon their Lordships was, that before they adopted
this principle that they should be satisfied by inquiries that
those calculations were correct. He almost despaired to make
the calculations intelligible, on which the expediency of the
measure was based. He said it had been assumed that 112 lbs.
of sugar were equivalent to eleven gallons and a-half of spirits,
.but then, he went on to say, to find an equivalent in barley and
in malt you must examine what quantity of sprits they would
produce, and upon the fact of those quantities the correctness
of his calculations
depended. The Noble Earl said he was
undecided whether
200 lbs. of s a quarter of malt was equal to 180 lbs. or
sugar, and yet on that difference, amount-
ing somewhere to about two gallons, one-tenth,
the Noble Earl
to bring these two , on
.these figures, was prepared
commodities into close competition. He
said, however, he wound ar,,ue on the - assumptlon that. 1801bs.
would prickles that, (rant' t- If
' ' he would refer to the evidence
adduced befere a Commit
tee in 1831, he would
tr tdictory statements. Onefind -
molt ought. to produce 18i; ;another,
said that a quarter of
ier, that 18 gallons ought to be
produced trim a quarter of the
malted largely and that the highest very
best malt; and that he had
lens from a quarter of malt, and u,aatmount obtained was 18 gal-
the lowest was 14, but that
the average was 16 gallons. The diff
and 20 gallons was just the value erefnce one , therefore between 16
o
Another stated that eighteen gallons ought to be produced from
fifth• of the article.
very superior barley malt. Mr. Ure, who
be-
fore the Committee, stated that the produce was examined
quantity was not eighteen, nor sixteen, but fifteen
from the same
If that were so, instead of making the fifteen gallons.
the Noble Lord, they would have to compare Comparison of
with 16
2
differencetlature of the
compet s.
There would, therefore, be a
on which had to be decided the of
‘1
. itiou between :hose different articles. Where state-
ments were so varied, it was incumbent upon them to inquire
carefully into the statistics, before coming to a determination,
as the operation of such a measure could not fail, ultimately,
to injure the agricultural and colonial produce, by the intro-
duction of foreign sugar at a small duty. He found, when
*lie experiment was tried on which the Government relied for the
success of this measure, the price of flavattnah sugar was 495.
Sopp„sosss on St,e valcul.tien of the Noble Ei,l, that.
a quarter of malt was equal to 201 pounds of
sugar was correct, the calculations of the Excise Commis-
sieuers at bOs. 4d. was equivalent to the price of malt at 90e.

not be brought into competition with isfagtahratcowualds
per quarter, but until malt was at 4it0.5 ,
time.
principle
so, it disposed of the measure as a remedy for the present
distress,T h e Noblebecause ahtatdh the
adopted,prese prices
in
p o insugar
fact,could t not
he b brought
.
at the present
into competition with malt and barley
of
the sliding scale. He ( Lord Stanley) was surprised to hear
it.
He said that he would admit sugar practically, but that he
would admit it just in proportion to the rising or the falling
of of
the price of corn, and then passing over the operation the
slitting scale, in other respects, he came
thfe porwuarrpdosaendoftoalvid
dothinem
that they must adopt the measure,g
the uncertainty in the prices of colonial produce. That un-
certainty being, according to the Noble Earl,
dependent
iwuocutluda tni nogt
thpern
i cs'
enter e in
nptroodt
huactt production
uolfatitohne, article
hee ause itself.
itwo
Pon the
oet
as
a matter of discussion for that House ; it was a matter of dis-
cussion for a Committee, where it could be examined and
tested and sifted, and if her Majesty's Ministers wore correct
in their statement, he was sure that there would be no indis-
position on the part of those who advocated the principle of
protection for the country, and adopted the measure without
looking whether the result upon the metoifacturing intsrest, or
the benefit of the colonies were likely to be derived from it was
better calculated. He wished to call the attention of the
House to the manner in which the Noble Earl thought
the colonies likely to be benefited by this measure. If the
colonies were to be benefited by this measure, the greatest
benefit to them must be the greatest rise in the price of sugar ;
but if a rise took place in the price of sugar—unless a large
and material rise—took place in the duty on other sugars, it
was impossible that the colonial produce could come into con-
sumption at all. The Noble Earl said that a very large in-
crease in the consumption of this country must benefit the
West Indies very much. But if any increase in the consump-
tion of sugar in this country would benefit the West Indian in-
terest, while the duties were low, and the duties on other pro-
duce remaining fixed, what hope was there of the slave-grown
produce being diminished? On the contrary, he believed, that
any increase in the consumption of sugar in this country, would
increase the consumption of slave-grown sugar also ; and if the
price of the sugar rose, while the duty of the slave-grown sugar
still remained fixed, the colonial produce could not come into
competition with it. In the course of the year 1844, the con-
sumption of sugar in this country was 206,000 tons.
In 1945, the consumption was 240,000 tons of
British sugar, and 3,867 tons of foreign ; making
altogether 244,000 tons, as the consumption of the year 1845.
Supposing that the consumption of the last month of the year
1846 was a fair average for the remainder of the year, the total
consumption of sugar would have risen in 1846 from 244,000
tons to 266,000 tons. Was that for the advantage of the
colonial grower? The result was, that, of that amount, 244,000
tons in the first year-240,000 tons British and 3,867 tons
foreign ; and in the second year, 266,000 tons, the produce of
British possessions, tliV the foreign slave grown sugar increased
from 3,867 tons to 28,196 tons.—( Hear, hear.) Unless he
was wrongly informed, that increase was going on at the pre-
sent moment—for, during the first six weeks of this year—
where there were 27,000 tons of sugar introduced against
13,000 tons of the same period last year—there had been an
increase of 1,500 tons of British sugar as compared with last
year, whilst there has been an increase of 7,772 tons of foreign
slave-grown sugar. He stated as this, the result of one of their
late measures. That increase in the consumption of slave-
grown sugar being the result of the opening of the ports to
sugar which had already taken place; but the stimu us they
had given to the slave trade had not had time to work. It was
the surplus of former production which had now come in, and
it came in under a duty of 21s. against a duty of I4s. Let
them take the state of things three years hence—the year 1850.
The increased market for foreign slave-grown sugar would
then be in operation. They would have assisted cultivation,
extended the importation of slaves, and increased the produc.
tion—and that increased production would come in com-
petition with that of colonial growth. In 1850 they would
have an additional seven shillings per quarter in favour
of the foreign slave-grown sugar, and could it be doubted that
it would have the effect of increasing the consumption of slave-
grown sugar in this country? if it had any effect at all it
would be to increase the consumption of slave-grown sugar.
and the benefit would not go to the colonies but to the pro-
ducers in the Havannah and the Brazils. The Noble Earl
had referred to the case of the distilleries, and had told his
Noble Friend that when malt was at 60s. per quarter, it would
require sugar to be at 365. in order to render it possible to
make it come in competition. In the first place, that de-
pended altogether upon the question not only of the quality of
the spirit which was to be forced from the sugar—a question
which was altogether omitted from the consideration of her
Majesty's Government— but also on the amount to be extracted
from one quarter of the malt. When the Noble Earl said
that 365. must be the price at which sugar must be in the market
to be introduced into this country, and at that price it further
appeared that out of the 365. a drawback of Its. 10d.
was to be received by the importer on the con-
version of the sugar into spirit, it was to be
received back in the shape of a drawback—the most objection-
able of all modes of receiving it—which covered nearly the
whole amount of duty. It was a subject which did deserve
the consideratiun of a Committee, and it was most desirable
that the Home should be satisfied of the prospect of a large
importation of sugar. The Noble Earl had quite forgotten
until then, to inquire whether the duty on sugar was as low as
it was at the present time, and now it was about to be still
lower than ever it had been. When the Noble Earl said that
sugar was never as low as 355., he (Lord Stanley) begged to
remind him that in 1830, Jamaica sugar was brought into this
market and sold for 435., paying a duty of 245., and a very
short time ago. Havannah sugar which the Commissioners of
Excise declared to be 3 per cent. better than the ordinary run
of foreign sugar, was brought into this country at 21s. minus
the duty, so that a drawback of 12s. 10d. made it consumable
value about 225. 2d., so that even if the price of Jamaica
sugar, which was 19s. minus the duty, were raised 2s.
higher than it was in 1835, the price of sugar would he 22s 10.,
instead of 365., as stated by the Noble Earl. He was not pro-
posing to their Lordships to reject this Bill. If it were a tem-
porary measure, and he could see in it a prospect of relief, be
would say, " Adopt it at once, and make no inquiry," but if
they were asked and invited to take this measure avowedly in
the course of free trade, and as one cf the measures in the
course of free trade policy to which they must come, and
through which they must adopt measures which would lead
still farther, because it was impossible to continue any restric-
tion upon trade—if they were invited to take this course, which
would have a permanent effect upon their commercial policy,
he would say—do not take this step blindfold ; do not take it
upon the statement of the President of the Board of Trade.
All he asked was, that the House should examine into it, by
the evidence of competent witnesses, who would to the best of
their judgment show—not for present purposes, but ultimately
arid permanently—the effect of the measure upon the intetest
of the sugar cultivation in the West Indian colonies, and upon
the slave grown and produce of Cuba. He asked that they
should adopt measures which would satisfy their own minds
as to the effects which would be produced by this Bill, and
then vote for it—if they ultimately decided upon voting for it
as a permanent measure—with their eyes open. That was all
he proposed, all he asked from their Lordships, that they shook:
legislate on this important question with satisfaction to the
public. and with satisfaction to themselves; that they should
examine not only the papers produced by the officers of the
excise, however credible and worthy they might be, but that
they should inquire from other sources to satisfy themselvesthat
they were not doing mischief where it was their earnest desire to'
do good, and that they were not injuring the cultivation of the
colonies under the plea of relieving a temporary distress,
which the measure, as he was convinced, would not do. He
asked that they should not do mischief upon the plea of grant-
ing a boon to the colonies, which the Bill would not do, and it
was upon these grounds, and not professing any opposition or
hostility to the measure, but merely with a desire to be satisfied,
that he invited their Lordships to refer this Bill, not to a
Committee of the whole' House, but to a Select Committee,
where the facts might be investigated carefully, stated with a
tolerab:e certainty, and where a deliberate judgment could be
come to as to the probable effect of the measure.—(The No-
ble Lord sat down amidst loud cheers, but rose again immedi-
ately, and moved that the Bill be referred to a Select
Committee. )
Earl GREY said that he could not help thinking, from the
speech of his Noble Friend who had just sat down, that he
(Lord Stanley) had a very bad cause indeed ; because he knew
so well his Noble Friend's ingenuity, that whenever he saw
him during the greater part of his speech altogether leaving
the great question before the House, and entertaining their
Lordships with very ingenious and acute arguments upon
points which hail nothing to do with the real merits of the mea-
sure, he felt very certain indeed that his Noble Friend had a
consciousness in his mind that the cause which he was defending
was a bad and a rotten one. Their Lordships would recollect
the course of his Noble Friend's speech, and they would per-
ceive how completely, in the greater part of it, he had avoided
the real merits of this case. He had entered upon an argument
at some length, and read a passage from her Majesty's speech
at the opening of the session, for the purpose of proving that in
that speech this measure was introduced to Parliament as a
measute intended to relieve a temporary distress, and, there-
fore, not to be a permanent one. On that point he had only
to say, that whatever might be the construction which the words
were capable of bearing, the intention which the passage of the
speech conveyed was well known ; because some explanation on
the point was sought by his Noble Friend on the first night of
the session, and it would be in the recollection of their Lord-
ships who were present at the time, that it was stated distinctly
that this measure, with respect to the introduction of sugar in
breweries and distilleries was intended to be a permanent one.
His Noble Friend had commented at some length on this verb
subject, and had objected to that course. He, therefore, ad-
mitted his Noble Friend's view of the Royal speech so far,
and what was the result ? merely that her Majesty's Ministers
in the wording of the Queen's speech, had not shown them-
selves very skilful im composition -( Loud laughter.) That
was the whole result of the long and elaborate argument of his
Noble Friend. His Noble Friend had also endeavoured to
alarm the House, with regard to the measure itself, and had
objected to the dangerous policy to be pursued in the present
instance, and referred to the pledge given by the Government
upon this Bill in the other House. The Chancellor of the
Exchequer, in the other House, had stated that it was im-
possible, at the then late period of the session, to enter fully
upon the consideration of this complicated question, and pro-
mised to place sugar upon an equality with corn in distilleries,
so as to benefit the British colonies. The pledge given by the
Government had not bound the House, but it had bound the
with
Government. When on the other side of the House, they had
given it out as their conviction that duties should only be im-
posed a viewand capital
increasingfro m theirthe
revenue,natural
sources.
dnot
to turn as
industry
But ih a Noble Friend said that C
the appointment of this orn-
mittee was getting themselves into the position of the fine
edge of the wedge. Did that not mean that they had not
understood the subject. But, further, he thought that he did
hear something of the hostile intentions of the Committee. He
the more believed that he was right in this opinion, because he
had hear his Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack say,
,‘ Oh that gives us a clue to what will be, and, therefore, I pre-
sume this Select Committee is a convenient instrument for
rejecting the measure to which we are asking you to assent."
But what were the grounds on which the Committee was asked ?
What were the legitimate grounds of this inquiry? What
were the principles which they believed ? They considered
that the sugar of their colonies ought to came into consumption
subject to no impositions save what the safety of the country
required. if required for distillation or brewing, they ought so
to arrange it that no more bias would be
in left on the minds of
distillers or brewers than
the case of there being no tax
levied at all. If their object was
s to raise a revenue, then they
should so imptoe a far
that the'.sould tot in any deg! ce give
hau been levied at all. The did
not require a Committea greater bias than if' no taxe
Y
to ascertain if this was a good
principle or a bad one. He maintained that the lrinciple was
carried out. His Noble Friend made as curious a confusion
• between malt and raw grainas he had between sugar and
is (Lord
soGrey's ) deth,
molasses, and he had got far beyond
.im. The rev on he beliep ved
although' h
he had tried to follow hheouse
that there was some
he could not follow him was La if he followed his Noble
confusion in his own mind, u
soive iteelf into simply this—
Friend's argument it would re
brewer or sii,i ilter to use
ge the • .
would it answer the purpose
ue,,ti,„o with which they had
sugar or not ? That was a (1, ni for the manufacturer to
nothing to do. That was (Pl"t 1:",,a, to take care that the
determnse. All they ,
the mat had ttl -iufacturer should not
revenue was so conducted that ile wou e b bene-
be injured, at the same time filet.
the
f the b
greatest importance
fired. This measure would be °- season, by pre-
" giving a security in a 11;1.- &stilling, while it
venting the u-e of malt in The tendency
prevented sugar falling to roineusis low }iris:'.. .;on of prices.
of the measurs would be to give an equalises. • that was
They new that the smallest quantity ,-ter of
capable of yielding an equal amount of spirit with a qua. ''ile
malt, was 180 lbs. The malt paid a duty of 1/. is. Dal /14.

the sugar paid 1/. 2e. 6d., so that this measure on the most
unfavourable calculation they could take, would not give the
smallest advantage or abatement of the tax on sugar, and if
they took sugar on its real calculation of 200 lbs. to the quar-
ter of malt, it would, instead of 1/. Is. Bd., pay a tax of 11. bs.,
therefore, in this respect, there could be no partial duty. The
question was one of such perfect equality that it would
be in vain to refer it to a Committee. With respect
to spirits it was equally clear, and he did not think
that any man had ever maintained that the drawback on sugtr
was more than was necessary, in order to put distillers in
sugar, and distillers in malt, on an equal footing; he said there
was no doubt that they had, as nearly as possible, equalised the
burdens on these classes of manufacturers. Now, he never
recollected a case in which a matter of this kind was referred
to a Select Committee. The practice was, that the Govern-
ment for the time, acting fairly towards all parties, should
make some proposal to Parliament ; if they were wrong, their
views were contested, and the House divided ; but if they ap-
pealed from their views, they should apreal to one of the
Houses of Parliament, and not to a Select Committee. A
Chancellor of the Exchequer, he forgot which it was, but in a
proposal of this kind, one of the Chancellor's of the Ex-
chequer said, that he would never consent to have
his office put in commission. If his Noble
Friend thought that their calculations were wrong
he might have prop sed an amendment, and the question
would have been fairly discussed, and they on that side of the
House would have been prepared to defend their ow n. He
would remind their Lordships that his Noble Friend wished
them to go into a sort of fishing Committee, in order to distoter,
if possibleelsome error which was not before them. He mile; said,
‘• you are wrong." but he did not tell them where they , were
not right. He (Earl Grey) confidently appealed to their• lord-
ships not to assent to a course which was unusual, not to say
inconvenient. There was one point in his Noble Friet td's ar-
gument which excited in his mind so much surprise t had he
must advert to it. He (Lord Stanley) said " this he si ipi tosed
was a measure for the advantage of the colouies, I out the
colonies knew nothing about it." He (Lord Grey) pr ese nted
petitions from the West India planters, and his Noble Fr iend
beside him presented similar petitions from the China Associa-
tion in favour of this measure, yet his Noble Friend said they
knew nothing about it. He said that the measure was for the
benefit of the slave sugar grower. Their Lordships might
remember that by the provisions of the Bill passed last ! session,
the duty upon slave grown sugar would be reduced eve ey year
till, at the end of five years, the duty upon slave grown and
colonial sugar would be equalized, and during that per iod the
proposed measure would operate in favour of the colonial
planters. There was advantage to be gained from the
extension of competition. This was a proposition so
plain that it could hardly bear argument. He could
not help saying th at his Noble Friend, whoa he
said " competition in sugar would be injuries 5 to
the colonial planter." He entertained the most confident belief
that the British colonists would be enabled to reduce the
.prices
of sugar, and he could not help expressing the greatest. satis •
faction at the evidences which were afforded them, both it 1 the
West Indies and in the Mauritius, of the tendencies on tin : part
of the planters to introduce a better mode of cultivation and
generally improving their system of growing, so as to him -ease
the amount of their produce. These improvements were pro-
gressive in Jamaica, Trinidad, Antigua, and in almost the
whole of the colonies. The planters were beginning to see
the identity of the species, and they were commencing to im-
prove the condition of the negro. He believed that th e crop
which was now in course of comieg to the markets of this
country would turn out greatly superior to former crop. ,; and
in proof of the progressive improvement, he might itestance
w
the imports within the last few years. In the year 18.15, the
imports amounted to 45,000 tons ; in the year 1846 the a tate-
ment was 50,000 tons ; and at the present time there were in
on
nurse
that o
of
fbleBin4gs.seFnot
rtothtehsies
reasons
sy
he 6 id rejecttons,
0 ,00
oao bethine stgm7end
in-
crease of one-fifth on the produce of last year, or 15,000 tons
ment of the Noble Lord.
Lord ASHBURTON totally objected to the course a legis-
lation adopted on this subject. The negroes in the British
colonies, with an inferior soil, were expected to
cope with the
cheap labour and better soil of Cuba and the
Brazils, and the result would naturally be, that the
British colonists would he driven out of the m.arkets.
They were seeking to reduce the price of a small article
of consumption, by sacrificing the interest and lives of
hundreds and thousands of individuals. There never was a
subject which demanded more of their Lordships' consid era hen
than this, because the measure itself depended upon evedonce
and calculation. It would lead to the introduction of the
worst kinds of sugar into breweries, and thus it would have the
additional effect of stimulating the slave-trade. It was rather
ineonsistent tor them to be spending large sums of money in
attempts to suppress the slave-trade, while they were directly
stimulating it in another way.
Lord MONTEAGLE wished to explain the vote he was
about to give, because he did not wish it to go abroad that he
was supporting a measure of the serious character repress nted
by the
Noble Lord. Whatever might be its effects up on. the
t evenue, it had become absolutely necessary that sugar tihould,
fur the present, be introduced into breweries, but re illy its
effect upon the sugar market would be so insignificant, that it
was not worth while instituting any inquiry into that branch
of the subject. Its effect upon the market, it had been de-
monstrated, would be infinidecimally small. In saying thus
much, however, he did not wish to commit himself upon the
measure for the reduction of the duty on rum. There he
thought an inquiry was necessary, and, when that Bill came
before them, he should vote accordingly.—( Hear.)
The Duke of RICHMOND said it had been urged that this
measure would confer no very material benefit upon any class,
and that in his opinion was a sufficient reason for inquiry-. In
his opinion the measure would produce injury rather than
good. The Noble Lord, who had just sat down, had told them
that there was a Bill about to come up to that House thee he
was anxious should be inquired into, because it was based
upon erroneous calculations. Now, these two Bills. came
from the same shop, and if the one was wrong
he had a right to suppose that the other was; too.
Last session the agricultural party had been deceived,
with the free-trade measure, and it was the duty of their
Lordships to see that they were not deceived again.—( Hear.)
The manly declaration of his Noble Friend now at the head of
the Board of Trade admitted as much, and he must be allowed
to say that he better liked a fair and manly opponent than an
insidious friend.—(Hear, hear.) It was the duty of their
Lordships not to allow any measure to pass without a f all and
ample inquiry into its details, or the agricultural party might
be victimised again.—(Hear, hear.) If they wanted to give
the people good wholesome beer, let them get rid
of the malt-tax.—(Hear.) A partner of Mr. Whitb read in
his evidence given before the committee which sat upon this
subject said, beer made from sugar was wretched stuff, and the
only wy to make it good an wholesome was to antefa ctur
it from English malt and hops.d Hee asked whether the parti-
e
sans of that measure would go to the hustings and say to the
people, " We promised you cheap bread, but chea.e,bar.rei dad yod
have riot got ; but now we promise you cheap beer ,' some
poor man, more daring than his neighbour, would to its this
cheap beer, which would half poison him and all his boon COM• t
hsei. bee
panions.—(Laughter. ) He thought that Parliamen
which ulti-
n
for some time in the habit of passing measures
heir defects, gave
mately in their operation, by t
e of passing
little satisfaction to the country, in coesequene
measures with little inquiry, or with no inquiry at all, and they
s ect the
might expect by and bye that the country would not re
dperstood
measures of Parliament at all. He begged to be u_
Committee
that he did nut give his vote for going into Select
thatch e
for the purpose of defeating the Bill, and hehopedf
t.
i t
Noble Lords who agreed with him would get credit or
_orti_
it was no intention of theirs to defeat the Bill by
mittee which had been moved tor; indeed,
if the Noble Lord
in that Committee should make out the case which he had pre-
Bill
sented, he (the Duke of Richmond) would support the,
ed j
ibe
operation, he certainly would like to know, before the Bill
pashsalf the
operation, that the effect of it would not be tornoin
side
people.—( Laughter. ) Much had been said the other
in the
about putting off the Bill ; but surely
could
case of this last, of all the measures, there
days,
be no objection to deferring for two or thraeeveeaayse,
or even a week. He had always been the d . t
minds of
for inquiry, as that which was most satisfactory to the
d ino
the people—inquiry into those subjects where inquiry ha
r.
tendency to unsettle the public mind on great public merca ..
• ile interests. lie and his Noble Friends did not act as the
n laws,
free traders had done in reference to the nav gatio
eid
fin.
with minds hostilely set against these laws. TheY
if n
r y
• ing it were
this Select Committee in a friendly spirit, belles,
of the
granted that it would assist the manufacturing interests
of
country, and certainly not destroy the maritime supremacy
the nation, and render her a secondary power in Europe.r
Lord-
ships, BEAUMONT said, in rising to address their
would
ships, he was convinced most distinctly that thi. 13111
t could pro-
either effect the intended object, or certainly that
el k
that any
duce no harm. He was rather inclined
t°
thi
roduced any
effect it should produce would be very small
if
itldp at all injure
at all. But he could not suppose that it would at
any
any colonial interests. If he were called the
namo
amendment, he
argument in support of this, and against..tohhee _
I Lord who had
would instance the speech made by the N
That Noble Lord
moved far the Select Committee•
onl exhausting the
had moved for it in a speech not y
but exhausting
general principles of the subject,
oble Lord credit for
it in the details. He would give the
correct. The Noble
his statements and his calculations;
"N d
clations which
Lord, however, who followed put forva r
fi uresalcu were from 180
varied from those considerably, for his
g Noble Lord rented,
l•ulations the.
so 210. But on whatever ca c into competi-
tiond never come
he was convinced that sugar would never
would only be
with barlet, for sugar used in
of barley. In the
used in assistance to the inferior qualities
Riven in evidence
Committee on the subject last year, it wasr
Realities of barley,
that there was no market for the infersioewq
assistance would
and therefore sugar coming into use
he sale of barley. But
rather be in favour of than against t
ertace, was one which
this Bill, which was of little or nor imp
airily
one which would pro-
would produce little effect, d. r,
sled ceect that the Bill was bat a part
duce no harm. He ackn
°:ign ofgmeasures some of them already
of a consequence and a chat
t to follow.—(Hear, hear.) He
passed' and som e of them ye
that when they had passed that first
step, by repealing t
always had maintainede
corn-laws,
it would be an injustice to
&in y full, If their Lordships had adopted
stop short of free ti's the
carr that out into all the ramifications of
a principle they T. u,
duties Bill was a necessary sequence to
free trade; the Sughe ar-
abolition of differential duties was a
Bill. S 1
he Corn
matter of mere justice to the colonies after the repeal of the
duties en corn ; and this Rill .
._....
ill was a just
' ennsequence and if the
colonies demanded
it their Lordships could notrefuse it. He
excise
doubted not but that after the duties had been con-
siderably reduced on manufactured produce as well
h t those - •
I produce, t - . titles that should
as agriculture
.be
'wax
re-
tained. such as the me , which was a burden en land,
Would come forward more prominently than ever.
The sari
I qus of SALISBURY sad he had been the mover
for the Commi
ttee last year to consider the bur
heir Lordships burdens on land, and
he begged to remind t..
_.ec that the inquiry into the
w
effect of the malt-tax;'ltch h onsidered a burden upon land,
before they had well entered •
was interrupted
therefore, he thought was the time for getting that inquiry
it ought not to be lost.
resumed,The
and Noble
then
Lord proceeded in a very few sentences, which
were almost inaudible in the gallery, to contend for the reduc-
tion of the malt tax, as a compensation for the object proposed
by the present Bill.
Lord REDESDALE said the princiele of the Bill before
their Lordships was not ther principle of free trade, for that
principle was contradict' o prohibition, produced by excess
in duty on one ar icle ;bu now, in this case, there would
a, excess Of duty, and ii would be against the British
pro-
ducers, the refiners of sugar. He believed that for the pur-
poses of brewing• malt and sugar might be reduced to equality
in duty without bad effects ; but,
as in the case of spirits,
would not come into competition with malt, he contended surrarr
it would become prohibitory if they shouldrelieve
sugar and
have the duties on malt. He contended, therefore, that the
effect would be to produce a prohibition against the British
producer.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH said that he felt it his
•
Lord, duty to vote against the motion of the Noble Lo He could
not lend 'timer:lf to any meaeure cateolati.a
z , o et:sheers the
present Government, who had taken office tinder very peculiar
circuandances in their financial ',lea- ure' Upon all those
questions relating to Ireland, on which cie thought himself
better informed than the Government, he would reserve to
himself the liberty of voting es he thought
proper.
Their Lordships then divided on
the original motion, when
there appeared—
Contents
Noe-Ceetents

... ..

Ajerity
..
The bit' then went through Committee without amend
ments.

DISTILLING FROM SUGAR BILL.
This Bill also passed through Committee without amend..
ments.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE laid upon the table of the-
House several returns relating to the state of Ireland.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 19.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
LONDON (CITY) SMALL DEBTS BILL.
Mr. MASTERMAN moved the second reading of this
Bill.
Mr. BODKIN moved the adjournment of the second
reading for a week or ten days. This Bill proposed to ex-
tend to the city;of London the provisions of the Act passed
last session for the recovery of small debts. The judge to
be appointed under this Bill had not been appointed, in
consequence of the existing differences between the Court
of Aldermen and Common Council, and he thought it much
better to postpone the consideration of this Bill until
some adjustment of the differences had taken place.
After a few words from Mr. MASTERMAN and Mr.
WARBURTON, strangers were ordered to withdraw; no
division, however, took place, and the Bill was read a
second time.