The Sun.
London, England, 1841-03-02 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TITP,SDA.V,MARCII_2, 184 i.

to be laughed at ? He believed the Government were
afraid of meeting the House of Commons, and lotting the
public know that the peace of Europe was about to
disturbed through the!: rete:fererce. &Ai at they were,
they were not bold enough to state their case to the. ceue_
try at that time. Once Fedi:ln:cm was separated,
whet check was there that they might not hare earelled
50,000 men more than there were voted; the principle
was the same, and they actually did enrol 2,545 mea more
than were voted. The Noble Lord said they would take
the responsiblity, but he (Mr. H.) said, make out the case
first. He wished to see all the correspondence between this
Goverment and France, and he was satisfied it would fail
to make out their case. The vote now before them was
contrary to the usual practice of Perliament, and indeed at
the time no one supposed that such a step would be taken
without calling Parliament together. He felt himself jus-
tified, therefore, in moving that the vote be postponed until
they had the corresponderce on the table—if the case vse re
mode out then let the vote be agreed to, and if not, let it be
rejected. Until that was done he hoped that House would
not allow a vote incurred in such a way to pass. They were
now called on to support an armed navy of 41,000 men;
that was an enormous establishment A few yeer; ago the
establishment for the navy amounte I to 24,000 and 25,000
men, and the utmost number at any time at the period to
alfeh he alluded was 26,000 men, and those establish-
ments were considered veil large; what then must Ho-
nourable Members think of such an armament as 41,000
men ? Honourable Members ought net, he insisted, to
support a vote for so enormous an establishment without
some explanation being given for its existence. Parlia-
ment had now sat five weeks, and there was he contended
sufficient time during that period to make such arrange-
ments as would enable the Noble. Lori ( Lord John Rus-
sell) to give the required explanation. He would there-
fore move that the progress of the vote be postponed until
they should have laid on the t,b!e of the House the cor.
respondence which would enable Hon. Members to judge
how far Government was warranted in the responsibility
which they had taken upon themselves.
Mr. C. WOOD said that the question he underetood
to be before the House was a vete of 29,0001. to make up
the deficiency in the accounts up to the 31st of April 1841.
The Honourable Member for Kilkenny had, he appre•
headed, mistaken the immediate subject under discuse.on.
Sir J. GRAHAM said it was desirable that they should
keep the vote of 29,0001. perfectly distinct from that of
161,0001. He vtiated to know why it war th.t when the
supplemental estimate was proposed list Session of Par.
liareent —whee the balance of 29,0001. was ascertained—
that balance was not brought under the cogn.zance of the
House—why it was postponed ?
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL coneurre I in what had
fallen from the Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir J. Graham)
a 3 t i the necessity of keeping the question of the 29,000/.
separate from that of the 161,000/. With respect to the
observations of the Right Hon. Member for Stamford
(Sir George Clerk) he (Mr. M. O'Ferrall) thought
that the Right Hen. Baronet would have been the
la-t Member in that House to speak in such a strain.
The Right Honourable Member for Stamford had for-
merly expressed opinions cf quite an opposite tee-
dency, ar,d stated that when there was a pi essure cf the
public business, it was next to an impossibility to keep within
the strict limits according to which the estimates had been
fixed. The Right Hon. Gentleman had asked why was
not the proposal regarding this excess made in July last;
he must know perfectly well that that was totally impossi-
ble ; be must he aware that the accounts were made up
to the 31st of March, but not closed till Nosembe: ; the
time intervening being reserved for the receipt of the ac-
counts from the Cape of Good Hope, and the ether colo-
nies. Those accounts from the aolonies had not been re-
ceived till September 1840, end therefore the
excess could not possibly be laid before the
Parliament in July. When the accounts were
closed in November, it was then fur the first titre
that the excess of 29,0001. was learned. The Right Hon.
Baronet when in office took far elifferent views from those
to which lie now gave utterance; but then to some
Honourable Members the difficulties which were so ob-
vious when in office completely vani.hed from their
view when they were out of office.--( Hear, beer.)
The Hon. Gentleman thee real an extract from a
speech cf the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir James Graham)
and proceeded. The experience of the Right Hen. Ba-
ronet made him viol .te his principle within twelve months
after he had laid it down under no less than thirteen heads
cf expenci:ure.—(Cheers.) He (Mr. M. °Terrell)
asked, then, how it was possible to say, in a year like the
last, airy naval accounts should not exceed the amount
voted by 29,0001. ?—(flear, hear.) With regard to the
sum of 5,000/, in the present balance-sheet, the Right
Hon. Gentleman had omitted to look at the note in the
balance-sheet in his hand, or be would have seen that the
object of the Government could re t have teen con-
cealmeet With regard to 42,000/. for Canade, it
was mentioned in the sheet as the sum appropriated
to the nasal expenditure of that country, and if the Right
Hon. Gentleman would look to the balance sheet of 1 rst
year he would find it accounted for, under every head of
expenditure ; 15,000/. was on account of service on the

Sir JAMES GRAHAM sr id he was bound to say he
thought the answer of the ll'g,ht Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
M. O'Firrall) was satisfactory.—( Hear, hear.) lie ( Sir
J. Graham) certainly did attach geieat Importance to the
fact that when the estimates exceeded the amount voted
Parliament should receive a season for it. To that prin-
ciple he had adhered in 1831, and he still adhered to it.
He admi ted that, with the greatest care, it was impossi.
ble to frame the estimates exactly, and so as
they should not be exceeded, but the principle was, that
whoa this excess occurred, Pail:a-tient should be iufirmed
of it. He bad forgotten the fact, but after what had been
state 4, was ready to admit that November was by himself
considered as the period at which the accounts should be
made up.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. C. WOOD, quite rgreed wiii all that had fallen
from the Right HAI. Baronet (Sir James Graham), as to
the impossibility of extreme accuracy in framing the eati-
m nes. With regard to tl,e service on the Lakes in the
spring of 1839, when he held the situation now held by his
Right Hoe. Fr lend. af er the estimates were framed, is
coi.;equence of the dangerJu3 state of the frontiers, the
Secretary for the Colonies had intimated the necessity of
increasing our naval establishment on the Lakes, and I e
(Mr. C. Wood) had stated that he must move supple.
mental estimates for the purpose of defraying that expe .-
diture, or come to that vote cf credit passed in 1833, for
the purpose of defraying the expenditure of the insurrec-
tion in Canada. He thought the statement of the Hon.
Gentleman satisfaetori!y accounted for the manner in
which the excess of expenditure had arisen.—( Hear.)
Mr. HUME said that he would not oppose the vote,
as the paper in his hands gave a satisfactory account of the
expenditure.—( Hear.)
After a few observations from Sir G. CLERK, the
vote was agreed to.
On the vote being proposed that 161,500/. be grareed to
defray tie excess of the expenditure above the grant for
the yeer endii:g 31st March, 1841,
Sir R. PEEL. said that the Noble Lord opposite had
stated, in justification of this excess, that the state of irri-
tation in which France was at the time, rendered it more
expedieet for the Government to undertake the expense
upm their own responsibility than to come to Parliament
for a grant, as the latter proceeding would have tended to
alarm that power, and to endanger our pacific relations.
The Noble Lord had said, however, that the irritation had
sub,i led, and that there was no longer any apprehension
of hostilities being provoked between the two countries.
New be (Sir R. Peel) wi•hed to know whether the Noble
Lord was rightly understood to mean that a friendly un-
derstanding was established with France, or merely that
the expulsion of :Mehemet Ali from Stria had given so
different a character to the Eastern question, that a rup-
ture on that subject was not to be apprehended ?
Lord PALMERSTON said that his Noble Friend re-
ferred at the time to the irritation displayed in the speech
of the person who was at the head of the French Govirie
went in July 1840, when the transaction under discussion
took place.—( Hear, hear ) If the Right Hon. Gentle.
man asked what was the present state of our relations with
France, he would certainly say that he saw nothing con-
nected with the affairs of the East, or likely to time out
of them —( Hear, hear)—which would tlis.urb the pacific
understanding between the two countries.
Sir H. VERNEY defended the vote.
Mr. GOULB URN said that the vete involved an int-
portant question as to the conduct of the Government.
The Noble Lord opposite, and the Secretary for tins Ad-
mir,l ty, stated that a deficient estimate had been moved
for because a t u 2 st..tyment of the else would lead to
unpleasant consequences, in the irritated state of the
French nation at that time. He did not thick that was
any justification of their conduct in moving a small esti-
mate, when they luxes, that a large expenditure would be
require I.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was under: tend to say that
at the time the estimates were moved, the additional ex-
h,en liture was not anticipa.ed.
Mr. GOULBURN did not think that the Noble
Lord's explanation was a complete answer to his (Mr.
Goulburn's) statement. The Noble Lord sail that there
had at the time been a probability of a necessity for in-
creased force, and yet the Government had only provided
partially for that probability. The Government, as it war,
must have excited the suspicion of foreign Pots era ; and,
on the whole, he did not think they were justified incoming
t) the House with an estimate so far short of that which
was required.
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said tb:.t the Gevern-
ment were at first induced to hope that the forces they
carry
Sir cut the
ROBERTebj:, ept se, ofE theL
said Tr et rayt c
no
0 July.
one
con)
could command, would he sufficient to enable them to
Parliament were sittingornt thOeya
of the proceedingsof Admiralty, complained
the when the war
to sacrifice the interests of the country wouldthatt to strict st notric be
with France wise threatening.
tional rules. In times of danger it was always
a State. Theraendwia: occasion:et whetherrhoeenqsudt
iiurtrequired
of a Government to
highly probable that (al:
provide for the great interests of
was
question about thst. But the
force might be necessary—ssn•ga
question was—
rtisn important one—supposing it
~e, and to as.
verom nt tai nform
we.s likely to te i
tbority ? They might, for instance, c -edit, w!thout requiring any the
Lrietees
suchs anan inc-ease
e m rg e
~
coyf
parii,unesl itt
trisiit the duty of the Go).
a di.ereticnary stu-
mertei,Luaisk 1.4. a vote of
thought at all events they should liiiv'eatrakee'tnin"tP. lie
gene o show thaatrai
caution against the precedent the it'adS3MC.i pro
being likely to be followed again. 'YThe decal °pled
of the Noble Lord opposite had
des-
potic Govcrnmehts had some advantage over tie eenstitu-
tional States. There was no doubt inconvenience in being
obliged to bring tile State affairs under the notice of Par-
liament, and running the risk of publicity. That was an
inconvenience which they should submit to. What he
feared was that the precedent established by the Govern-
ment in the present instance might be followed on other
occasions. Towards the close of the last Session our re.
le in Pareament for an augments.
lion by any call ma .. _
and it mightbe the Intel% s: o"
lations with foreign Powers might. have tern dangerously
tion of the national forces,
On the whole, therefore, it was
circum-
stance would create. if
the Government, pressed by any
perhaps advisable that
the country not to excite the alarm which such a
fake upon itself the roipon-
t an it should luau
acixbtiriaitoyrdoir
ardyditnleocet
sos iot ye; shouldforc :1s rather

a communication to Parliament on the subject, thereby
giving rise to discussion and diminishing the probability
ef an amicable adjustment of the difficulties which might
exist.—(Hear, hear.) He would ailaiv that our rela-
tions with France had bean of a most delicate
aed important mature, and might justify the course which
had been taken. The Government, however, in order to
avoid the danger that such a proceeding could be cited as
a precedent hereafter, might have stated in the Socech
from the Throne that there had been an excess of the na-
tional expenditure, and that they had on their own discre-
tion increased the force of the country. They would thus
have left a record that the case was a special one, and
such as could only be justified on these grounds. Future
Governments might not otherwise understand the peculiar
difficulties which pressed on the Ministry in the month of
July last; and he would venture to say that in all future
(etas the precedent would be referred to in eases where
perhaps it would not apply, or it would be easy for Go-
vernments to persuade themselves that in a particular case
they were facilitating an amicable adjustment of a difficult
question by assuming frr themselves a discretionary
power, and not claiming for t eir proceedings the int-
naediete sanction of Parli merit. He thought, there-
fore, it was to be reeretted—not that the Ge-
v rnment had i ecrease 1 'their forces—but that they
eid not make some dist:net communication to Parliament,
stating that they bad taken to themselves a discretionaiy
poser, but that they had done so under special ci cam-
stances, and th.t the case could not be considered as a
precedent for future imitation.
Lord PALMERSTON said that in the principles laid
down by the Right Hun. Baronet he entirely concarre 1.
He did nut deny the constitutional doctrine stated by the
Right Hon. Barone'. But the question was, wheti,e- the
case was one which properly ar,d justly should make an
exception to the general rule. lie thought for the re !sons
stated by his Noble Friend, that they were just:tied in
adopt ng the course they bad taken. What was the state
of things when Parliament was prorogued ? The Treaty
of July had been signed ; and at the tine great irritation,
arising out of complete misapprehension, pr e.ailed i 1 the
mi ids of the French people. Tnat irritation aro, e front
this—the French persuaded themselves that the alliance of
tie Four Powers, which Intel b ea intended simple and
specifically for settling the que-tion of the Levant, was
an alliance hostilely directed against France. The F.eneh
people-said that that was an alliance of the Four Rovers
against their country, and the national feeling was tit ,t it
indicated a determination to take from her territory, or
otherwise diminish her power. Undoubtedly they ni:glit
then have come down to Parliament arid stated that sir.
cumstances bad arisen which created an angry recline be-
tween France and the Four Powers, and that as Perli i.-
merit was about to separate for some months there was
no knowing to what results that irritation might lead in
the interval. They might then, in order to provide for
all emergencies, allesugh this was the immediate danger,
haze asked for a vo'e cf credit which would enable them
to take such treasure at a future period, as the necessities
of the times might requite. They might have done that,
and he could assure the House that the policy of such a
step had been fully considered by the Government, and
it was not wi,heut fell deliberation that they
had abstained hem taki ig it.---( Hear, hear, hear.)
What might have been the consequence if they hid par-
sued a different course ? Why, the French nation vs ould
have said—the British Government is asking for this vote
on the grounds of an anticipated war, and they are about
t ) enter into an alliance against us with ti,e other Powers.
They were, it would be said, asking fur a vote whirl'
would enable them to increase their naval forces, so as to
be prepared to attack those. of France.—( Hear, li, ar.)
They would thus have given great weight to the argu-
ments of those who endeavoured to create feelings of hos-
tility in the minds of the French people, and they would
have been acting in the manner best calculated to avoid
war, which was the great object they had in view. They
had, accordingly, taken a different course. But was the
Eug ish Govcrewisent the oily one that had done so ?
The same line cf policy was adapted by the G,.v. rein eats
of the Continent. England would have suffered from a
ear as would every Power engaged in it; but unque.-
tionably its pressure would have been more immedi itchy
felt by the nations of Germany, because a war
by land i 3 attended with g. eater calamities
than Conflicts by eel. Austria and Prussia had
abstained from everything that could lead to misapprehe t-
alon of the intentions of the Allied Powers. At a later
period, however, her Majesty's Government had thought
it necessary to increase our naval for ca, and the Govern-
ments of the Continent had felt it equally necessary
to take such precautions as would enable them to
resist any attack to which they might be subject.
He should say, therefore, that although he agreed ia .the
general principles laid down by the Right lion. Getitle-
roan, he thought that under the circumstances it was the
duty of the Government to incur t e responsibility they
had done rather than run the risk of disturbing the
peace, which it was their first object to maintain,
and which by the course which was then pursued, they
had fortuna'ely succeeded in preserving. 'nese were the
grounds on which they thought they could justify their
policy. They had hoped that the irritainn of the French
people might soon pass away, and that there would be no
continuation of an angry feeling between France and the
other Governments of Europe. But on the other hand
they hail felt that if these expectations should be disap-
pointed, and if in the course of the recess they should find
it necessary to augment their forces, they need not shrink
from such a responsibility. If a war had taken place they
should have called Parliament together, and submitted the
whole subject to their consideration; but while measures of
precaution only were to be taken, they had hoped that Par-
liament would give them credit for those larger views
which had influenced the is policy. In descending to details
be found that this course was not a very extraordinary one.
In former times, when the financial year began in January,
the Government was obligad to incur expemes for which
they hid not previously received a vote front Parliament,
bat in the present instance the Government bad cons drawn
with this e timate, before the end of the financial year,
to which it was to be applied, and therefore they could
hardly be said to have depatted from the letter of the law.
S.r R. PEEL said that the Noble Lord seemed to agree
with him in every respect. He (Sir R. Peel) had not
said that the Government ought to have asked for yo:e of
credit last year, as such a vote might have bean open to
some objection. Such a vote might certainly be attended
tei•h serious consequences, inasmuch as it might have led
t a increased suspicion and uneasiness in Frarce. He could
conceive, that, under the special circumstances of the sig-
nature
of the Treaty, assuming it was possible that the
Government would be justified in taking upon themselves
a discretionary power of increasing the nasal or military
forces of the country, rather than provoke di,cussien and
irritation by an appeal to Parliemenn—but while he ad-
mitted that they might have been justified in departing
from the usual constitutional mode of proceeding, he
thought they should have made some formal communica-
tion to Parliament, stating the circumstances limier which
they had adopted such a course.—((dear, hear, hear.)
They might, for instance, at the commencement of the So:-
siert, in the Speech from the Throne (although it it was then
too late to benefit by the suggestion), have stated that.
events had occurred which had induced them to inc. case
the it forces, but that this increase had been c teased by
peculiar circumstances., and that they expecte I Par da-
meet would sanction their conduct. He had no doubt
that such a course would be approved of by Parliament;
and the case could not then have been quoted as a prece-
dent in future, unless under such very exttaordinary eir-
cumstancea. He (Sir R. Peel) did not wish thet the
subject should be allowed to pass over unnoticed, lest the
precedent should be hereafter appealed to. Ile wished to
prevent that as much as possible by the observations he
had been making, and it was on that account he had given
expression to thern.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that the result of the
speech of the Right Hon. Baronet was, that they ought
t ) have advised her Majesty to state tho irregularity of the
course t' ey had taken. They should, in the opinion of the
Right Hon. Baronet, have come down to Parliameet at
the beginning of the Se,sion. This course they might have
taken; but he (Lord Julia Russell) sheuld observe, thet
in that case they should only have required a general
opinion on the subject. He did not say that the course
should not have been taken, but he did not see the advan-
tage that would have followed. from it. He thought it
better that this question should came before the House
in a Committee of Supply. He admitted tha t e I.?..ght
Hon. Gentleman was entirely right in the general
principles which he stated. He did not deny that;
and the Right Honourable Gentleman on ilia other
band did not deny that there might 1 e cases %litre the
departure from that gene al principle might be advisable.
lie thought that the discussion which i ad taken ph c . on
bath sides would be quite sufficient to prevent this case
being broeght into a precedent.
Mr. HUME said that as the discussion would not be
entered on the journals ti,ere would be no t °card against
this being drawn into a precedent. The Noble Lord ad-
mitted that the necessity for the inc ease had been occa-
sioned by the policy of the Government. Now, he wanted
to know what that policy was, and contended that it would
be impossible for them to.come to a deciaien upon this vote
until the Syrian policy should have been discussed. If,
after a discussion of that suit,
when all the papers
should have bean laid upon the table, the House should
sec right to sanction the policy of the Nelda Lord, he
w..uld then offer no fresh opposition to the vote. At pie
sent, however, conceiving that by voting these ceinnites
he should be sanctioning the Syrian policy of the Nell,
Lord, he would certainly propose to
negative the y,,te
and divide against it, if he divided alone. He con-
sidered that if the Treaty of July bad never
been signed the peace of Europe would not
have been disturbed, and that the Noble Lord, by
signing that treaty, had beet the cause of everything, flee
laid occurred. If the Noble Lord at the end of the ha-t
Session had come down to the House and explained the
grounds on which that treaty had been signed, and had
stated that its sole object was the restoration of Syria to
the Porte, and nothing more ; that nothing what! ye:
hostile to France was intended, such a declaration made
in the face of the British Parliament would have re-
assured France and calmed her, whereas, by going to
work secretly, he gave France cause to apprehend t tat
that treaty wits the renewal of art al:iance hostile to her.
The Noble Lord had resorted to the most
means to fan the Times of reteliiort in Syria. le could
not concur in the expense whica had been incurreeid , and I o
should certainly divide the House
The CHANCELLOR of the E XL: /I EQU la a ceebto
that tl.e concurring in the vote et ell impliedi an ap;:rfe :-
against the v, to.p , .
(i
tiun of the Syr:a policy. The only practice result I: a
logo on with. _(A laugh.)could not in that cete
He .
`' n Act,
and the expenses without breaking the Appropriation
.1,1,.
gativing the vote would be that they would have no money
and the public service would be put to the greatest possible
inconvenience. He perfectly agreed that it was wily under
very special circumstances that a Government s.ts au-
thorized to spend money without cansulting Pariv. lament,
but he conceived that those circumstances had been made
out in the present cite.
Mr. GOULBURN said that they
were all agreed that
this was a question of no trifling importanCe. He nos
much struck with the argument of the Hon. Member fir
Kilkenny, that this discussion would het lead to anythieg
being record° 1 on the Journals so as to prevent this bei 1-4*
drawn into a
means of obviating the difficulty—it was that the present
precedent. He thougln ha could sugL.;est. tare

vote should be withdrawn, and that in the vote to
be subsequently brought forward, words should be
introduced marking the special circumstaeces of the case
which had led to Lhe deetoeure from the usual prsf t
Tuat would form a sufficient record to prevent he, being
drawn into a precedent. If words e ere intreduced, tdtieg
that the canons had been occasioned by special circum-
stances, which could not have been foreseen at the tote of
the prorogation of Parliament, every object would be an-
swered.—( Hear, beer.)
Captain PE C HELL sail the grounds of the objection
raised to the vote by the lion. Baronet, the Member for
Stamford, differed entirely from those asserted by the
last speaker. He should certainly support the vote, and
he thought the line of policy pursued reflected the highest
credit on the Governmera.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER con-
curred with the Right Hun. Gentleman in opirden that it
would Le advisable to prevent this being drawn into a pre-
cedent. He thought it would be almost better to intro-
duce a spacial Act of Parliament for the purpose.
Sir R. PEEL thought as it was a special case, it had
better be met by a special Act,
Mr. HUME—Then the vote will be withdrawn.
Mr. C. WOOD approved of the course suggested.
He would remind his Hun. Friend the Member for Kit-
keany that so far from the vote being withdrawn it mtot
be pane 1 to make it the ground of the Appropi iative Act.
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL thought an Appropriative.
Act would be ne.essary to enable him to apply tee money.
Sir GEORGE CLERK apprehended the vote of the
House woul I be sufficient.
Mr. HUME said the special circumstaeces on which
the Syrian policy depended might to he discussed first.
He thought it would be better to postpone the vote until
after that discussion.
Sir R. PEEL thought the voting of the money by no
mean; implied an approval of Government policy. Grant-
ing that policy to be decidedly wrong, stitl it was right to
pay the a-my and navy.
Lord FRANCIS EGERTON would go further, and
say that if the Government policy were wrong, that
might be even a greater reason for their armamente. A
suffi ieat cute of pre-:umption had been made out to
snais ! him to do what he was always desirous of doing_
support the Navy Estimates.
Lord CLAUDE HAMILTON disapproved entirely
of the Syrian policy of the Government. France was the
protectress, by treaty, of the Christians of Syria, and
therefore naturally viewed aith feelings of alarm any mea-
sure calculated to inflict the miseries of war on Syria. He
should vita with the Hon. Member for Kilkenny.
Colonel SIBTHORP rose to address the House, and
immediately of erwards Sir Robert Peel nodded to Sir
George Clerk, and the two Right Hon. Baronets walke I
slowly out of the House, amidst loud laughter fi om
the Ministerial benches. When the mirth had somewhat
subsided, the Gallant Colonel said be really could not see
what thtre was to laugh at in his Right Hon. Friend's
going out to procure some refreshment.—(Renewed '
laughter.) He believed the day was not far distant when
he should see him occupying the place which the Noble
Lord now occupied, and acting and doing what the
Neble Lord was incapable of Ling—something for the
henefit of the public and country.—( Cheers and laughter. )
The Noble Lord had talked of placing France in a false
position—what, he would ask, had France done? Why, she
had assumed a position which the Noble Lord and his
colleagues had been afraid to assume. °He should be
happy to support the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, if he
divided the House upon the vote, but he should be glad to
see all these subjects placed in the hands of a Select
Committee.
Mr. HUME could not accede to the proposition of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer without giving
up the principles with which he had set out. lie
was sorry to vote against her Majesty's Government, but
he could not consistently wi h the opinions lie entertained
of the policy they had adopted tots ards Syria support them
in that policy.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the Com-
mittee divide d, when there appeared._
For the ye to B9
Against it
M ijority in favour of the vote —Bl
On our rc-admioion into the Gallery we found—
Mr. CORRY on his legs, opposing the next vote which
hal Lean put from the Chair Lorene our adnriesion ii.t e the
gallery. He thought her Majesty's Government were
greatly to blame, for the state of the navy in 1839, ar.d
that, throughout, they hal been most cult ably regard-
less of the proceedings likely to arise from their policy.
Although the charges which had been made against the
Admiralty had been denied, they had not neelected to
profit by them. During the list two years five vessels
had bean launched, arid eleven vcere now ordered to be
built, and though her Majesty's Government had net in-
creased the number of men nominally, they had done so
virtually, by appointing 900 supernumeraries. Recollect-
ieg that three or four thousand of the present force were
employed on the coast of China, and considering the ex-
traordinary preparations which were made by other
nation., he almost doubted who her the force then prc-
posed to be added was sufficient for the public seta ice.
Lord A. LENNOX wished to take that opportunity of
calling the attention of the House to what he considered
an improper distinction between the privates and non-com-
missioned officers of the Royal Marine Corp?, and
those of the troops of the line. If a soldier
of the lire was on foreign service for ten y e
he received a pension far twenty-five years service;
whereas to a ma-ins the same period was only counted as
fifteen years. At Plymouth a marine must serve forty
years, Elting during that time the most responsible situa-
tion he:*ore he could obtain a pension. He hoped that
the Admiralty would soon remove the invidious distinctions
which existed between the two services. If no step were
taken towards such a result, ke would, after Easter, bring
forward a motion in order to take the sense of the House
upon ti.e subject.
Captain PECHELL said he .regretted the course
which had been pursued by several Hun. Gentlemen oppo-
site; as ire tredmetsod it to Le admitted on all sides, that
the navy had now proved its efficiency beyond all dispute.
It lied been stated in the other House of Parliament,
that ;leer twenty-four years of peace, the naval
officers of this c: untry were not equal in efficiency
to those of France, and that even if they were, there
was not that affection and attachment towards the
Government which would induce them, if called upon, to
engage in action. He was confident that there was no
officer who had any such feeling. The late events had
clearly shown that whenever they were called upon to
se ve their country, tkeis deeds would be such as had ever
distinguished the navy of England. He beiieyod that at
no time we: the navy in a more prosperous condition, or
under bet r discipline. The attention which had been
bestowed on the naval artillery had greatly increased its
efficiency. He had laimse:f differed from the Admiralty
on many occasions as to minor details; but the r general
management he cordially approved. The French, on all
occasions when they had been in the presence of Ergdsh
ships, had expressed their admiration of the skill and abi_
lity of our officers and seamen—(Hear, hear)—and this
sentiment was not confined to that nation, but was com-
mon all over the world. It had been asserted that the
Bri a nia and Howe were sent out to take part in
the naval ong,gemeets on the coast of Syria. He main-
tained that the Britain:ix and Howe had merely been sent
out as relief ships ; and he trusted, in conclusion, the
Hon. Gentlemen would be ready to second him when he
came down to the House with a motion for a reward to the
brave men engaged at the siege of Acre.—(Heir, hear.)
Captain BERKELEY believed the gunnery of the
British navy was in as great a state of perfection as it
ever had beer, but he believed that it was not as regards
the fleet is the Mediterretrean, sufficiently manned to cope
with a French flee'. It was his doctrine, that no hi -It
man of war ought to leave the port without her full com-
plement of men, and if that were dons, he had no doubt
they would be found superior to any naval force in :la
world.

Mr. W. CHAPMAN Was always ready to g've has
vote in favaur of any grants for the efficient equipment of
the navy. That navy had done its duty most admi-ably,
' and he eats gratified to say without having had recourse
to impressment for their equipment. He believed ih-re
never was an instance in which so large a number of line
of b.ttle ships were sent out from that country without
havit:g had recourse to that distressing expedient of taking
men from the merchant service.—( Hear, hear.) It was
the first duty of the House to keep up the British navy,
and the vote should therefore have his support.
Lori FR A NCIS EGERTON lied vis'ted a French
ship, Montebello, when she was lying in the Bay of
Smyrna, and he believed she did not throw a heavier broad-
sid: than the Princess Charlotte. Now he had ewer.
tained that the number of men in the Montebello was 1,130,
and he left it to the Lords of the Admiralty to say bow
many the Princess Charlotte had.--( Hear, hear.) The
Committee would recollect that at Acre only one broadside
of the ships had been engaged, but suppose they had been en-
gaged with an equal number of French shipe, how would
the case have been ? Where would the Admiral have
bee-a ? Most probably where the victory was at Trafalgar,
lying alongside the two heaviest ships of the energy, and
he feared it.would have given Admiral Stopford more than
hie men could do to come off as British sailors always
hither 0 bad come off, triu ephant. On a former cce ton
he had alluded to the services which two naval offi:ers,
Sir Howard Dcuglas and another, had rendered to the
country by their improvements in the gunnery practice of
the navy ; he had since ascertained that he had done
i .justice t) a third and very able officer, Captain George
Smith, who had been equally serviceable in this respect,
and to where name be was anxious now to do justice.
A'COURT hoped the Government would lose
no time in placing all the navy upon its full complement of
men. The only proof they could hive of the Efficient
manning of the ships was in the event of a naval engage-
ment.

Mr. C. WOOD did not think that House the best place
fir discussing matters of detail connected with the service,
and it bad never led to any satisfactory result. They had
last year had Hon. Members impeachiag the conduct of
tl:e Admiralty, and it turned out that they were entirely
wrong ; arid now it was said that the present efficient state
of the navy was owing to their attacks. Why, the build-
ing of ships in 1836 could not have bcea owing to their
attacks in 1838; nor could the increasts in the number of
men in 1638 have soi3en from their attacks in 1839. He
would remind the Committee that the principle of placing
the ships on a peace complement, during the time of
p..ace, bad been the print iple uniformly acted upon by every
Admiral!y, on the ground ,hat the expense was thereby di-
miliished aod that men had net the same work to do in peace
in timeof war. The Noble Lord (G. Lennox) complained
that the trtt, in e was not placed on the same footing as
C.e
seaman with regard to the period of obtaining his dii-
clnrge, because two }ems' service in barracks was only
e)unted equal to one year's service at sea, but he must
protest against making these camparisons between the two
Lranehes of the service. The marine received a
.higher
pension than the soli r and was sooner entitled to it, and
ai regarded the seaman it would appear fromthe return he
i;e!el in his baud that very few seamen obtained their pen-
sions or discharge before thirty years' service, including, of
course, the various periods when they were.
paid off atid
in lc!iv• service, and :h refore the marine was not in
a worse p...sition than the seaman in that relacet..
Lord GEORGE LENNOX bad complained that
there bad been seveaty-six nav4l officers promoted at

Acre, and only three marine officers. If there was no
distinction between seamen and marines in etecr re pcct:,
in the name of God let there be no distinction between
naval and marine efficere—( Hee-, hear.) He wcul,',
however, shortly g;vo Hon. Members an opportunity el
recording their opii inns, by bringing forward a specific
motion on the subject.
Mr. PLUMPTRE understoed the Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. C. Wood) to say that he did not consider that cow:-
try gentlemen, and those living far in-land, nad a right to
express any opinion on the subject of naval affairs, with
which they could not be reasonally supposed to be very
intiinet ly acquainted. Now, he (Mr. Plumptre) thought
that every Member of that House ought to enter into
that, or any other subject, as much as he possibly could.
On the efficient state of the navy at the present period he
would congratulate that Hou:e ; indeed, the navy was
never mere efficient than it was at the present time.
Mr. C. WOOD was not aware how anything which
he hal said could site rise to what the Hon. Member
( Mr. Plumpti e) had attribute I to him. He (Mr. C.
Wood) never objecte I t 3 country geatlemen giving their
opinion on naval matters, but ah at he state ] WAS, that dis-
cussions such as the present were only likely to give rise
to insubordination in the navy, and that gentlemer, not
practically exie rienccd in those male re were not ee-
queint:d with what number of men, See., might or might
not Le requisite.
Sir C. ADAM said that it had been the fashion in that
House to say that our ships were net in an effee:ive state.
Them we-e, perhaps, some few instances in which with
some degeee of fairness that charge might hays feet ma;.e,
but one would suppose, that after the experience of the last
few months Hon. Members would no longer bear such as-
re-o°ns made in that House. Let that House and toe
country only look to what had been done lately in the Me-
diterranean, and Frey whether S r Robert Seopfurd had not
had sufficient means to carry out his plans. That Gal-
lant Officer was delighted with the complements of men
furnished to him. He had evea written home to state his
satisfaction at the means which had been placed in his
hands to carry on the operations on the coast of Syria.
The fleet was composed of 17 sail of the line with
1,600 'nee short of their complement, and he, Sir IL
Stopf.ird,) had 1,200 or 1,300 supernume:ies to fill up
;heir places. From the statements made at timea by
Honourable Gentlemen in that House, one might
be led to suppose that our ships were more ineffiiient than
those of former times. Now, he (Sir C. Adam) had got
a return made out of the number of ships under the com-
mand of Lord Nelson at Trafalgar and the Ni'e, the com-
plements of men to each ship, and he found that the fleet
under the command of Lord Nelson had not a greater
complement of men than that at present in the Mediterra.
Lea-. With regard to what hal been stated by the No :le
Lord behind him (Lord G. Lennox) as to the marines, he
(Sir C. Adam) should say that the marines distinguishel
themselves as much as any other portion of the men ea.
gaged in the late operations on the coast of Sy via.
With respect to its being said that our trees in the
Mediterranean were not sufficient to cope with
;he French, he should say that our fleet was more than
able to cope with the French, who put forward every ship
they could supply; whereas the British had 26 line-of-
batt!e ships in the Meditetranean, and 15 other line.of
battle ships which, when necessary, they could put into
active service. The navy of this country was in a state
to satisfy any reasonable demands that would be made
upon r.
Sir T. COCKBURN reprobated the departure from
the old system of equipping the navy, which was to hare
fewer guns and more men.
Captain MAUNSELL was not in the beta of support-
ing the Government, but felt it his duty to bear testimony
to their liberality towards the marine department, and to
their readiness to listen to suggestions from that side of
the House.—(ll:,ar.)
After a few words in explanation, Croat Capt. Pe.lol,
Sir G. Cockburn, and Mr. C. Wood,
Mr. HUME said, as nu satisfactory explanation had
been given for the vote, he should move to reduce it Coin
43,000/ to 35 000/.
Lord PALMERSTON said it was t-ue the face wo
had last year was quite sufficient fur the accomplishment
of all our operations in Syria, but if other maritime coun-
tries increase t their naval force, it was becoming in Eng-
land to put ht rs on a footing of equality with them.—
(Hear, hear ) Although there was nothing at protect
likely to disturb the peace of Europe, be was sure there
could be no better course to preserve peace than having
our navy in a state of preparation for any contingency.
Mr. HUME said be admitted the success of the opera-
tions in Syria, but it was the arms of the wicked that bad
triumphed.—( Cheers.) He thought it would be wise not
to inc.case, but to diminish our force, at present. Nothing
could tend more to bring about a return to relations of
amity with France, than our setting the example of re-
ducing our armaments. He would strongly recommend
the Noble Lord to be content with the force which he had
last year, and which was found sufficient to meet all the
emergencies that arose. It would be time enough to in-
crease our forces when a necessity arose for active
hostilities.
The question was then put, and the estirna a was carried,
Mr. Hume and another Hon. Member being the only
dissentients.
The next estimate of 1,493,750/., for wages of tea
men and marines, was agreed to after a few words from
Captain Ptchell.
The earn of 782,040. for wages of seamen and marines
is ordinary was next voted.
The next vote was for 121,8441., for the salaries of
officers of the Admiralty and dockyards.
Colonel SIBTHORP objected to proceeding w'tla
such important vote,: in so Brie a House, and at so late an
hour.

Mr. M. O'FERRALL hoped the lion. and Gillett
Member would not obj set to proceed now, when there was
only one vote more to be proposed.
After a few words from Sir J. GRAIIAM and Mr. Hume
the voce was agreed to.
The sum of 2,952/. was then proposed for the salaries
and expenses of the office for the Register of Merchant
Seamen.
Mr. HUME observed that the object for which the re-
gister was established had not been obtained.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that the Act had in its results
exceeded his expectations. He had expected only 13,000
apprentices to be regi-te red in a year, but the fact was that
the number bad been upwards of 21,000.
The vote was then ag:eed to.
The sure of 31,9821. was voted for the salaries of officers,
and the contingent expenses of several scientific persons in
the navy.
The sum of 124,5291. was vote) for the salaries of offi-
cers, and for the contingent expenses of her Majeety's naval
establishment at home.
The au +n of 22,1521 was voted f r the salaries of officers
and the contingent expenses of her Majesty's naval esta-
blishment abroed.
The vote for wages was postponed.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and ob-
tained leave to sit again on Friday next.
The house having resumed,
On the motion of Mr. HUME, fur Mr. Wallace, the
fAlowing Returns were ordered :—A Return, in columns,
by the Justice of Peace Clerks of the several Counties ir
Sco land, and by their Deputies and Assistaet, respec-
tively, of the total amount of Fees levied, and of other
emoluments received by them annually, since the Return
to this House for the years 1833, 1834, and 1835 respec-
tively ; specifying, in detail, the amount of Fees le-
vied under the Small Debt Act, the Baekrupt Act,
on Piecognitions, and all other fees or emoluments
wha'ever ; and also, the amount of the annual ex-
penses or charges incurred by these Officers for
Office-rents, Fees, or Salaries to their Deputies or
Assistants ; with the na nes of these persons, and under
what authority and by whom they acre appointe•'.
Also, the date of appointment of the Justice of Peace
Clerks and their Deputies., the hours of their daily attend-
ance at their office, wigs the name of any other palm
office they hold, or employment they are engaged in ; and
whether the raid Justice of Peace Clerks hold their office
for life, and on what terms they and their Deputies hold
their appointments. This Return to he dated and signed
by the Principal Clerk and his Deputies, if any. Also a
Return, in columns (in continuation of that made in 1833),
of the salary, fees, and all other emoluments paid to or re-
ceived annually by Procurators Fiscal to the Justices
of the Peace in each County of Scotland, since last
R-turn, and up to the Ist of January, 1841 ; with the
name, place of residence, and date of appointment
of the said Procurators Fiscal; the' Return to show the
sum paid t each Fired in etch county annually, and also
the sum paid by the county or by fees annually, stating
the amount received wicks- the name of expenses or costs
cf suit, with that chargeable to the county funds respec-
tively, and the total amount of both. Also, the amount of
fines imposes, and of fines received resprctirely i■ each
year by e •ch Procurator Fiscal; the Return to state
whether the Fiseals keep a book or any record of the sen-
tences:, and a book showing the fines, or, if net, to wive
how these are recorded; the Returns to be dated and
signed by each, Procurator Fiscal in each county.
On the, motion of Mr. HUME, a return was ordered cf
the expenses incurred by Government in preparing for and
conducting the prosecution of Earl Cardigan is the House
of Lords; distinguishing, under separate heads, the
amounts paid to the several parties engaged therein, and
the names of the persons to whom these sums were paid.
Mr. FOX MAULS pee notice of his intention to
more t -morrow for a Committee to consider of authoris-
ing. any advance out of the Consolidated Fund of the United
Kingdom of Gr. at Britain and Ireland, which may here-
after be required for supplying any deficiency in tl e fund
primarily applicable to the eapenres of County Courts, as
regulated by any Act to be passed in the present Session
of Parliament.

The other Orders of the Day we•e teen disposed of, and
;hell-louse adjourned at a Quarter before Twelve o'Clock.

ACCIDENT ON THE GREAT WESTERN R AIL-
WA Y, —An accident of a fatal nature, arming from ezre-
sive carelessness en the part of the urfortuca'e deceased,
occurred at the Steventon sta*ion, to a man upwards cf
sixty years cf age, on the afternoon of Thursday last, who
vas knocked down (as be was incautiously crossing the
line) by the half past four o'clock train from Wootton
Bas,:ett, to Paddington. The poor fellow, who got his
living by selling fruit, was struck by a projecting portion of
die engine on the Itond, and his death must have been in-
stantaneous ; for, upon his receiving immediate assistance,
life was found to be extinct, arising from a severe wound
on his bed. But very few drops of blood oozed from tl.e
wound. It should be observed that there is a footpath
which crosses the lines at the place where the accident oc-
curred, where the Company's men are stationed to endea-
vour to prevent accidents occurring through the carelest-
E 036 of the public.

ALGIERS.--The Semaphore de Marseille of
the 22d tilt., states, that the population of Algiers eon-
li.sted, on the 31st of January last, of 30,000 individuals,
16,247 of whom were Europeari4s;ll,2ta
viz. 7,208
and 862
5,201 Spa. iards, 1,564 English,
Germans; of these 8,076 me- e mon, 3 042 women, and
5,199 were chi'dreo. "An officer of the areoy,
M. St. AuLyn," acNs the correspondent of the Semaphore,
" la.ely cone to spend a for days in our city; but I could
not micertain whether he had undertake!, his journey to
&wit." his curiosity or to accomplish a mission."