The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-27 00:00:00

nently to improve the condition of the people. When
e,,,. , e.ene. r: „.e eperatlee
of this measure to a dreary waste of pauperism, what
would be the next thing ? Why, a distribution of the
whole property, amidst all the terrors of an agrarian
outrage, the effects of which would be severely and bit-
t-t ly felt by all the aristocracy and people 61' this country.
Unless they improved the country, so lonitwould Ireland
continue one mass of pauperism, deranging the condition
of England. Tho next question with which he wished
to deal was the question of rating. In hiss opinion, the
two modes—electoral and union rating—were open to
great objectims. Union rating especially, as persons
who had no right to support the poor would be called
upon to do so, even though they lived twenty or thirty
miles trom the parish of the person claiming relief. The
experiment they were about to make upon Ireland by
introducing the proposed poor-law was one of the most
monstrous and awful that had ever been even
suggested or ought to be introduced. It certainly was
one which ought to be investigated as he proposed, in
order that their Lordships might have materials for
thinking and judging on the matter during the Easter
recess. He did not object to the imposition of a pro-
perty-tax of 15 or 20 per cent. ; but what he objected
to was, the misapplication of the funds raised for the
relief of the poor, as it would be if the proposed law
were passed. General and aericeltural education ought
to be promoted in Ireland, and, in his opinion, a greater
scheme of emigration ought to be carried out in Ireland
than the one the Government were inclined to favour.
After thanking their Lordships for the patience with
which they had heard him, he concluded by moving the
appointment of the Committee.
Earl GREY said he felt constrained to ask their Lordships
not to accede to the motion. In whatever light he viewed it,
it was equally objectionable. Indeed, he was at a loss to know
the Noble Lord's object in bringing it forward—whether it
was to give their Lordships information on the subject, or
whether it had in view to abject to the out-door relief clause
in the Bill now in the course of deliberation in the other House,
and which had been acceded to ; a great number of those in
favour of that clause being Irish Members. He was quite at a loss
then, after his Noble Friend's :peeeh, to divine which of those
two objects he had in view. But if such a Committee were
appointed, it must sit several months before it could come to a
decision, and therefore the object which he stated he had its
view would not be obtained. No doubt the Bill would pass
the other House on the first day after the recess, and unless the
Committee of his Noble Friend was not allowed to impede its
progress, it could be immediately taken into consideration by
that House, and passed without delay, as it was urgently re-
quired. His Noble Friend stated that he wanted a digest of
ail the reports of Commissioners and others who had
dralt with the subject. But no Committee could
accomplish this so well as the Noble Lord, who
had devoted so much attention to the subject, and
who had himself prepared a digest of all these reports. Such
a function could not be delegated by Parliament to a Select
Committee. It was certainly a most elaborate way of adding
another pamphlet to the many valuable ones which had been
published on the subject. In his (Earl Grey's) opinion no
such aid as that proposed was required. The materials had
been prepared, and every man could easily form his opinion
from them. He considered he had utterly failed to show the
necessity of such an inquiry. The other part of his argument
was equally objectionable—namely, his objection to-out-door re-
lief to the indigent or ailing poor. Such a measure was demanded
greatly at the present moment, because the people stood more
than ever in need of such aid.—(Hear.)He doubted whether

the measure was one on which the Government were unani-
mous. Now, he (maid assure him that the Government were
quite unanimous as to the immediate necessity of such a mea-
sure as the one proposed. Throughout his whole speech he
appeared to him to have been fighting a chimera of his own
creation.—( Hear, hear.) The dispensation of out-door relief
to the able-bodied was to be placed in theihands of boards of
guardians, but it would only be given when the workhouses
were full, and when the Poor-law Commissioners had taken cog-
nizance of the matter, and decided that it should be given, He

. .
(Earl Grey )admitted that evils had sprung up under the present
Irish Poor-law; but that was no argument in favour of its
abrogation and the enactment of a new one. The prosperity
of the country had increased since the time when a poor-law
was first enacted ; and when the poor were supported by a tax
levied upon property, the owners of property would see that the
funds so raised were properly expended. What was the great
cruse of the misery in Ireland ? Every thinking man would
ts 11 him that the reason was, that there was insecurity
of property in Ireland. And whence had that insecuriry
arisen. All authorities concurred in the opinion that
it was the result of the feeling which prevailed in
Ireland that the land must be clung to for support.
The Irish people felt that if they could not stick to the lend
they must die like dogs upon a dunghill. No doubt there were
political causes which had helped to increase that insecurity;
but really and truly the immediate cause was that which he
had stated, and hence the want of improvement which was
manifest in Ireland. both amongst the people and in the land it-
self. This state of things he thought was a sufficient justifica-
tion for their Lordships refustng the Committee and -pressing
the Bill which would shortly come up to their Lordships'
House. Who, let him ask, could refuse to give the poor relief
when they were really destitute ? The affluent landholeers
ought to be the last to refuse it ; but his Noble Friend
who had brought this motion forward did not object to giving
relief, but he complained of the system Government was going
to establish, of giving out-door relief, declaring that it was not
justified by the old law of Elizabeth. Now he begged to differ
with his Noble Friend on that point.
Lord MONTEAGLE—The relief could not be given out of
doors without work.
Earl GREY said his Noble Friend's observations showed
the inconvenience of discussing this question before the Bill
came before them in the usual form. Government did not in-
tend to give out-door relief without work, and his Noble Friend
would find that to be so when the Bill came before him. When
the workhouse was full, he could not see any reason
against granting out-door relief to the really neces-
sitous poor. Much of the misery which had recently
existed in Ireland was occasioned by the want of
a power to give such relief on the part of the parochial autho-
rities, who, when they found their workhouses overflowing to
an enormous extent, were compelled to restrict, their out-door
relief; because they well knew that the money they might
expend in that way, would never be collected from the rate-
payers. What a contrast this state of things presented to
many parts of England. For instance, in Castlebar, he per-
ceived from the returns, that the poor-rate never exceeded
2s. 6d. in the pound, while in parts of England they were
13s. 3d. in the pound. He did not intend to say that out-
door relief to the able-bodied poor was justifiable upon all oc-
casions, but he did maintain that it was advisable and just,
when the workhouses became inconveniently full during a
time of pressure. In ordinary times there would always be
ample room for relief in the workhouse, but in extra-
ordinary times, when the workhouses were full, out-door
relief ought to be brought into operation.—(Hear, hear.)
Upon that ground he justified the Bill which was in
progress in the other House, and upon that ground
only. It was the principle which prevailed in this country
while it had worked well, and he could see no reason why it
could not be applied to Ireland with equal advantage. The
system was, therefore, precisely the same as that which pre-
vailed in England, and it afforded all the security that could be
given. But he knew that it was said that the-population of
Ireland was so great, and the pauperism so extensive that no
Poor-law could overtake it. This was a most fallacious state-
ment. No doubt, in some districts, the number of labourers
was so large as to make it difficult to command-beneficial and
profitable employment, but in looking at Ireland as a whole,
he believed there was no real deficiency in the field of labour.
The resource of the country were more- than ample to em-
ploy all ;he people. The reason why Ireland 'had presented
suck a spectacle of distress was on account of the misapplica-
tion of her industrial power. If they looked at the large
extent of her uncleared lands, her undrained bogs, her neg-
lected fisheries, and mineral wealth, they would find the ample
truth of this statement. Such was the state of Ireland, and to
alter this, and to call into action the latent powers of Ireland,
he knew of no measure better calculated for the purpose than
the present measure. It would induce Irish proprietors to
improve their estates, and to find employment for the people,
instead of supporting them out of the parish rates. No doubt
the change must be gradual, yet the beneficial results he
had stated would be sure to come about. Let their Lordships
hear in mind that this was only one of several measures.
There were other measures in progress for drainage and im-
provement of lands, for the reclamation of wastes, and for the
development of the fisheries, which would co-operate with the
measure under consideration for the regeneration of Ii eland
and the elevation of the people. Still, though he had these
hopes of the future, he must say that he looked with great
alarm at the present state of Ireland, and the difficulties they
would yet have to encounter ere a better state of
things was brought about. The Noble Lord had talked about
this poor-law extending pauperism in Ireland, and reducing the
wages and condition of the people. Now he would call the
attention of the Noble Lord to the facts in the blue books on
the table of the House. If he did so, he would find that the
habitual condition of Ireland was of the most wretchedcharactei ,
the population without decent shelter or clothing with the
most meagre and ineadent supply of food. And yet the Noble
Lord asked them to abandon the present Bill, which he said
would still further degrade and pauperize Ireland ; though to a
similar measure in England had they been indebted
for much of her present industry, wealth, moral ,elevation,
and independence. The Noble Lord had also referred to the
former policy which 13 ( Earl Grey) had supported ; but in
reviewing that policy he t ound nothing in the present measure
inconsistent with his support of the present Bill. Though, as
he before observed. he could not void looking with alarm on
the present state of Ireland, still, as ne believed she contained
all the elements of wealth in abundance, if she were only true
to herself—anti he thought the present measure would afford
much assistance—if she only exerted herself to overcome the
present difficulties, he saw no reason why she might not emerge
out of her present darkness, and advance herself to a position
of the greatest plenty, and the greatest happiness—that she
might do so was his most earnest prayer.—(Cheers.)
Lord BROUGHAM wished that some Noble Lord con-
nected with Ireland had got up in preference to himself in the
present stage of
otnhseidedreabtiaot.el,tosetehinegm.theThime importance of the
measure under
theHouvseer,y he
peculiar need
liar not
presented was
o
neitselfpos-
sessing
to them in an aspect of extraordinary charac- '
ter. Still he did not wish at present to
_enter
ufeatu remindres, an them,
into the subject of a Bill which was not before their Lord
him -
ships, nor indeed would it be convenient for o do at
at
that advanced period of the night, or to go into debate
But on
e
the general principles of a provision fur the poor.
ucould not help remarking at the unhappy course
gh he did
which the
•
Government had been pursuing , and he hoped, though
not see much ground for success, that he might yet inprevail
diverting them from such a proceeding. From the beginning
of the session he had been endeavouring to show them the
total failure of the course they were pursuing. A great
calamity had overtaken the empire—a crisis had arisen
which he hoped would prOve but only temporary, and he had
endeavoured to impress on their minds that they should care-
fully distinguish measures to meet this temporary crisis and
those of a permanent character. He should freely give every
encouragement to any exercise of benevolence and beneficence
which was calculated to meet the destitution of the country ;
but when the question was the alteration of the whole policy
of the empire, he advised them to do nothing rashly. No-
thing should be done in the dark, or under the influence
of passions or feeling, but they should wait till the
calm after the storm, ere they devised measures of
a permanent character. Now there were several points in this
subject to which he would :call their attention. In the first
place, if they passed a permanent law, they could not retrace
their steps; whereas if they passed a temporary measure, a
measure that went but a little way, they could from time to
time bring experience to improve it, where improvement was
required. They could not do this with a permanent measure.
They would, in such a case, be able neither to recal nor
retrace their steps. Once let them say, that Ireland shall
be fed without labour, and that outdoor relief should be
granted, and they would not be able to stop till they had
ruined the landlords, and not only them but, what was far
worse, the farmers and tenantry of the country.—( Bear, hear.)
Both classes would be inevitably ruined before a remedy
could be applied. This' was one great reason why
they should not rashly legislate on the subj,ct. Now
these two Noble Friends had differed, from him on the Act of
1838, to which he was opposed, and as he had been justly re-
minded that he had been opposed to this Act, for this Act went
much further. His Noble Friend had stated, that that Bill
might lead to a repeal of the union; and as his Noble Friend's

bad to call pon them to put it off because the majority of all
parties concurred in its principle.— (Hear, hear.) For him-
self, he had always called for a poor-law similar to the one now
proposed, and unless their Lordships wished to continue the
present state of things in Ireland, they, like the
other House of Parliament, would be unanimous in
passing this Bill. It was a monstrous exaggeration to
contend that there was, always to- be kept up an extestsive
system of out-door relief. 'Nothing thuld be further from: tie
fact. Out-door relief would be the last resort, and it would
only be brought into operation during extraordinary visitations
like the present It would seem that the objection of the
Noble Lords who opposed this Bill was, that it would not pre-
vent pauperism. Why, what nonsense that was. No Bill
could prevent pauperism • but he would venture to say,
that if it met with the co-operation of the people, it
would tend considerably to diminish the existing suf-
fering, and make provision for future periods of
scarcity. Of course, if the people of Ireland were so foolish
as to abstain from uniting to ensure the good working of this
Bill, it might be rendered a source of great evil, but he had
too much confidence in his countrymen to believe that they
would be dilatory in availing themselves of this opportunity of
permanently bettering their condition. Under these circum-
stances he did hope that the Noble Lord would not press his
motion to a division.
Earl FITZWILLIAM had heard the speech of the Noble
Lord (Lord Monteagle) with the greatest pleasure, and had it
been simply, as alleged by the Most Reverend Prelate, a pre-
lude to a motion for further inquiry, he would have thought it was
rather late to do so. But the/speech was not of this character,
but was rather a condensation of all the solemn opinions recorded
from time to time by those who had carefully studied the
condition of Ireland. Some years ago they bad taken steps to
alter the law as it existed in England, in order to do away with
the abuses which had arisen from the out-door system of relief.
Not long after the Government introduced a poor-law for Ire-
land, and at the time he thought it a strange proceeding to re-
trace their steps as far as England was concerned, while they
enacted an entirely opposite principle in Ireland. But the law
which had been passed was now, it would seem, but a prelude
to a more extended system, in which out-door relief was to be
a prominent feature. Oh, but it was said that no relief was to
be given out till the workhouses were full. Now, from his
knowledge of Ireland, he knew that this would be often the
case. In fact., they would be obliged extensively to give out-
door relief if the Bill were passed, and the numerous guards
and restrictions with which they hedged the Bill proved this.
From all that he had seen and read of the proceedings on
this measure, he felt assured that the Government
and the other House of Parliament were proceeding too ex-
clusively on English feelings and conclusions without
thoroughly understanding the real condition of the country for
which they were legislating. When they found so many words in-
troduced for the purpose, it would seem as if they were nullifying
the measure. He thought it would have been better for them bad
they taken the advice of those friends who were opposed to the
present measure. He differed from the Noble Lord (Bari
Grey) as to the 43d of Elisabeth having contributed in any
degree to the prosperity of England. In entertaining such an
opinion, the Noble Lord would seem to have set at defiance all
who had carefully considered the question, and especially that
much despised class of men the political economists. He
called on their Lordships to consider what would have been the
state of Ireland if the present measure had new been in opera-
tion ? Would Ireland have been better than now ? Would
fewer lives have been sacrificed, or would less destitution have
prevailed ? He believed that there would not, and therefore
it was that he thought such an extraordinary state of
things ought to have been met by a temporary, instead of a
permanent measure. He hoped their Lordships would re-
consider this subject before giving their final decision.
Lord BROUGHAM explained, that the pressure which he
referred to in his speech was the public opinion of England,
excited by the present extraordinary circumstances of Ireland.
Earl St. GERMANS said, as only one Member of the
Government bad spoken in the course of the present debate, he
wished to say a few words. A great deal had been stated about
previous Committees and Coaamissions, but it should
be recollected that the total failure of the potato
crop required that they should direct the in-
dustry of the people to a new means of subsistence
altogether. It was clear that the people of Ireland must
henceforth give up the possession of their small plots of land,
and depend on wages for subsistence ; and therefore it was
that be supported the present measure to assist in effecting a
transition to a new state of things. He would not occupy their
time now in discussing a Bill by anticipation, but he rose to
state his opinion on the subject raised by the motion of the
Noble Lord, and to state that he believed the measure neces-
sary to meet the condition of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.)
The Archbishop of D BLIN explained, that he supported
the motion of the Noble Lord (Lord Monteagle) though he
thought that an inquiry would be but fair before giving a final
decision.

I statement, which appeared to have been superfluous, now
preve,l to he anything but supe,fluous. What was the case now
when they were suffering, not from the pressure from without,
but also, the pressure from within. The measure was carried,
as it was expected to be carried, by but a small division.
What was that division ? Why, some 36 members were found
to vote against the adoption of that clause, of which 32 were
Irish Members, and so it was that four Members were found to
vote against some 180 or 19.) Members, including English,
Scotch, and Welsh Members; and thus it was evident that if
the poor-law was bad for England, it was tenfold worse for
Ireland. If the merits of this Bill were what they were
represented to be, they were tenfold worse with respect to
Ireland. It was perfectly evident that a poor-law was abso-
lutely indispensable for Ireland, but he could not trust the
functionari-s to whom this administration was to be intrusted.
He spoke with all respect to the characters of his fellow-
citizens in Ireland, but this he would say, that he could not
trust the execution to Irish agents. They must have a ma-
chinery to carry out the Act. They must have power. They
must have a force, whether civil or military, to carry out the
designs of the Government. But look at Castlebar. In
Castlebar they had 1,1001. to collect ; but what did they get?
Why, under 4501., when the union was in a state of debt.
He perfectly saw the reason of all this, for he knew that Irish-
men had a decided distaste for the payment of direct taxes.—
( Laughter.) His Noble Friend opposite, like all other
Chancellors of the Exchequer, had a religious horror
to the imposition of such a tax as would come
immediately at the pockets of the people.—(Laughter.) He
had had a pamphlet put into his hands, which he believed,
and was assured, presented a right state of the case. By this
pamphlet it was stated that 600 workhouses were to be built,
but would they serve the wants of the country ? Certainly
not ; for if these were to be satisfied, upwards of 3,000 work-
houses might to be built.—(Cheers.) Then what was the
case? Why it was evident that the workhouses could not pos-
sibly accommodate the number of the people who would apply
for relief, and what would be the consequence of this ? Why
that they would crowd to the houses for relief. Well, then the
moment that one applied for relief more than the House could
accommodate, the principle of out-door relief would immedi-
ately be adopted, and thus the evil would become inevitable.
He could bear testimony to the excellent and admirable and
generous character of the lower classes of the Irish peo•
ple, in which they might well set an example to their betters
and perhaps this had led to that great evil which had been
found to result in practice, and which was found in the effect of
Members of Parliaments placing their own tenants, and those

who had voted for their election, on the Public Works. Still
this character was evident, and in the large increase of emi-
grants into Liverpool and the other English ports, he was
happy to find that there was not the least tendency to disorder
or any disturbance. But yet there was one vice in the Irish
character, which was the source of all evil, and that was the
vice of improvidence; a vice tending to reduce the people in the
tone of their morality—that quality which had been engrafted
upon humanity, for the preservation of its dignity, and the se-
curity of its progress, The Noble Lord who had spoken last
had depended upon the Act of Elisabeth, but it should be re-
membered that that Act was totally inoperative, and it was not
till the 9th Geo. 1.-that the workhouse test was brought into play.
The Acts of Charles 11. and of William 111. had partly pro-
vided for the temporary necessities of the case, but it was not
until the Act of George I. that this test came into effective
operation. Then came the Acts to which Mr. Pitt had so
unhappily lent himself, and which were calculated in every way
to reduce the character-of the Irish people, and to demoralise
those who were already too prone to depend upon extraneous
support. We must confess that he was apprehensive that this
measure would be calculated to do more mischief than benefit,
and he considered it too frightful an experiment for any one to
attempt, without greater assurances of success, than any which
the Ministry at present possessed. He must confess, then, that
he believed that the better plan, by far the better plan, would
be, to take this as a temporary measure rather than to make
a permanent infliction upon the resources of the country.
He found that if the presentmeasure was passed, the promoters
of it would in a few years regret the course they had taken.
The Government would find it no easy matter in the six dis-
tinguished counties of Ireland to lead back the 300,000 persons
to habits of industry, who had been led lately to rely upon the
efforts of the Government rather than their own. It were ab-
surd to suppose that these 3C0,000 should be disposed of by
means of a system of out-door relief, proposed in the present
measure. In his opinion, it was most unwise and impolitic, at
the end of a Parliament, and in the present distressed and dis-
turbed state of the public mind, to bring forward a measure
such as the present. It was not to be wondered at, that the
people of England should cry out for an Irish poor-law, seeing
the thousands of Irish poor which had left their own
country to become chargeable to them. He did not think
that the landlords of. Ireland were as a body chargeable for the
present distressed state of the country, and that unmerited
obloquy had been cast upon some of them. ( At the con-
clusion of the Noble Lord's speech several of their/Lordships
rose at the same time to address the House, and considerable
confusion prevailed in consequence. A Noble Lord at length
proposed that the Archbishop of Dublin should be heard. This
motion having been seconded, and put by the Lord Chancellor,
was unanimously agreed to.)
The Archbishop of DUBLIN then rose and said that
he felt himself called upon not to give a silent vote upon the
present occasion. He felt that this was a duty forced upon
him by his peculiar connexion with the subject then under
discussion. He was, as their Lordships were aware, one of
the commission appointed to inquire into the condition of the
Irish poor—not by his own desire or offer, but by the selection
and at the request of the then Government. The Government
of the day perhaps considered that the experience which
he had bad in England as a governor of a parish union
might in some degree have qualified him for an inquiry of that
kind, but whatever qualifications they might have found in him
they certainly would not do more than justice if they believed
that he devoted himself to the inquiry most heartily. This he
would beg leave to say, that a comparison could hardly be
found less likely to agree in any erroneous views, or in any
kind of prejudice, than the Commission then selected by her
Majesty's Government. The Commission consisted of Pro-
testants and Roman Catholics, English and Irish, clergymen
and laymen, and Protestants of various denominations. There
were differences of opinion as to the propriety of establishing
such a law as was afterwards established, and several of them
were afraid of the experiment then tried, but he felt it
his duty to declare, that all were agreed—those who
approved of the poor-law as then existing, and as now exist-
ingE; all agreed that it was most essential that there should be
no out-door relief; that, they said asould be a ruinous measure,
and cause the confiscation of property. He shared in the
general apprehensions entertained at that time of the injurious
effects of the measure. What he dreaded had taken place,
viz., that when the workhouses were full, a clamour would be
raised for out-door relief ; this had occurred to a most alarm-
ing extent during the present distressed state of the country.
He had endeavoured to the utmostof his abilities to provide em-
ployment for the people in his immediate neighbourhood in order
that they might be prevented from going into the workhouses,
arid had by such a course of conduct prevented numbers from
going into the workhouse. He regretted to see the present
measure introduced ; and it was one of the most chimerical of
-b do ou or r. reliefT h The people
could be
f
snuosttiaoinnsedtobysuappose
England were not, he was convinced, aware of the real nature
well-directed a system
system of
ofout la
of the Irish people, when they thought such a measure would
be beneficial to Ireland, and profitable employment could not
really be found for the two millions of Irish paupers. No
power could ever be able to compel them to do a lair day's
work; and woe betide the unfortunate overseer who should
compel them to do a fair day's work ; and woe betide the un-
fortunate pauper who should do a fair day's work, if such
should be against the regulations of his fellow-la-
bourers. He believed the effect of the measure would
be to throw ultimately the whole charge of
the Irish paupers upon the United Kingdom. The rates as
they were successively called for would be successively in ar-
rears the whole country would become desolate and like
another Cholesbury. It would be far better for the Govern-
ment at once to confiscate the whole of the property of Ireland
and allow the landed proprietors a pension for the remainder of
their lives. It was physically impossible for the property of
Ireland to support its poor. The Irish people were most re-
markable for their improvidence, and their willingness to throw
themselves on the resources of others. An instance of this
had recently come to his knowledge. In the neighbourhood off
the Cove of. Cork there were a number of persons who had
till recently obtained their livelihood by fishing, and although
large quantities of fish were to be taken at a short dis-
tance from the shore, still these people refused to
leave their homes, and were content to live upon the mise-
rable 'pittance of soup provided for them by the hand of charity.
Some benevolent persons thought if they provided them with
tackle and provisions for the purpose of starting them on this
voyage, that they would afterwards be enabled to support them-
selves and their families; but it was found, however, a hopeless
undertaking, as when provisions were given to them for the
voyage, they landed and used them for the support of their
families. In fact they could not be trusted with a loaf of bread.
If they proceeded in the way this Bill proposed that they
should proceed, the whole rental of Ireland before the
end of the year would be swallowed up. But this was
the worst time of all to bring forward such a
measure as this.--( Hear, hear.) Yet after all something
must be done. He, therefore, recommended inquiry, in order
that they might not take a leap in the dark. if the plan the
Government proposed rested on good grounds, he saw no
bttrpr
hieee,
Parliament..
scannewm:wuaweellhnnliyitynww. t
ohehlt
thdtiel esytsuthty
poseihpy;chooeeguuvami
edydne,
agrariannat measure
buthe
r.pe
ewnrcothwtcohaet
outragesl
seeoedbwa iebhttf.
wouldoooe
lr.eeb makeAo
rtdnehidnaee rtdiat
soltha.
ethoe,hrefnaei
right
hdhr t
avohsneaersdn Housewte no
reason
in-
surrection had totally changed the face of Ireland, they would
have to retrace their steps with deep regret and humiliation.
At any rate, they ought to make the proposed investigation in
order to show that they had good grounds for the course the
Government proposed to adopt.
The Earl of DEVON considered that no good would arise
from the adoption of the motion, because the blue books, of
which a condensation was sought by the Noble Lord, were in
the hands of Noble Lords, and they were therefore in a condi-
tion to judge for themselves. He had the misfortune to differ
with many of the landlords of Ireland, as to what was the
besides
permanent
enens
roi
gmdmwearasnent
many
eti
neh bmfti ese
benefit
placedeusm nur
eierduring
g
ditwsiuuui
hsrtatierchesimilarsGbi
tedpohevoelrseoeiroptdnikeomteonhdie:al
net
upon
poihhotfeahnd IrishErapen sfsgepplbeapaucnrettdeo.dptoolnfiAeroonobut
fdthgaehti
best course to be adopted for the benefit of the people
s
of freland.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had spoken of
outdoor relief, as if the whole people were at once to become
recipients of out-door relief; and as if nothing was to be left
to the exertions of landlords. He was wholly incorrect in
supposing that all would become recipients of that relief.
Nevertheless, those who opposed the Bill had nut proposed
'any other and better plan for the purpose of improving
social condition of Ireland. The landlords would be driven by
this measure to find employment for the people; and therefore
there was no doubt about the people obtaining remunerative
employment. It would be well, he thought, to extend the
workhouse accommodation in order to apply the test of con-
finement in the workhouse with relief or labour given out of
it. He fully believed that this was one of a series of measures
which, collectively, could not fail to produce considerable
benefit in Ireland, and it was for that reason he should
support the Bill when it came up from the other
House. It might press heavily upon one class of the
landed proprietors of Ireland, but eventually it would lead to
their permanent good. As a body, he had no doubt the land-
lords of Ireland had done their duty, but he could not conceal
from himself that there were a few exceptions, and he trusted
this Bill would have the effect of refining them.—( Hear. )
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said his Noble Friend
who had just sat down had so fully stated his own views upon
the subject under discussion, that he did not feel it necessary
to trouble their Lordships at any great length. Still, there
were one or two points upon which he must be allowed to
touch, and in the first place, he must direct attention to what
had fallen from his Noble and Learned Friend opposite. Now,
his Noble and Learned Friend had told their Lordships that
Government were bringing this measure forward in a moment
of pressure and excitement.
Lord BROUGHAM—No; I said that the Members who
supported it voted for it under feelings of excitement.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE wss glad the Noble and
Learned Lord had explained himself, because he could assure
the Noble and Learned Lord that this Bill had been brought
forward by her Majesty's Government after the most mature
deliberation.—( Hear.) But the Noble anti Learned Lord
argued in favour of delay because the House of Commons ap-
peared to be almost unanimous in its favour. Certainly that
appeared to him to be a most extraordinary reason to urge in I
favour of delay. Had the ~votes on either side been nicely
balanced, there might have-been some ground upon-which to
urge their Lordships to delay the Bill, but really it was too

Earl ROSSE lose to support the notion. He could not
agree with the last Noble Lord, that the .old reports and com-
missions, on the subject of the Irish Poor-law, should go for
nothing. It ought to be kept in mind that those reports had
been made in calm and dispassionate times—( Hear, hear)—
and not as now, when the public mind was excited and alarmed.
He was glad that her Majesty's Government had not consented
to this inquiry, but he looked upon the production and the
printing these documents as far Isere important than the con-
venience of their Lordships, for it would answer the purpose of
making the public acquainted with their nature. There was a
general feeling that the more property was taxed in Ireland the
more pauperism would increase. Let them only look at the
subscriptions which had been made for the poor of Ireland, and
they would have a sufficient proof that this principle would
hold. He was anxious that this should be known, for he be-
lieved that the effect of these measures would be to throw a
large quantity of the land in Ireland out of cultivation. But
there was a limit to the assistance which had thus been ren-
dered, and that limit would soon be reached. Now, they were
not prepared to try the experiment in Scotland which they
were about to put forward for Ireland. Now, it was
evident that the landed proprietors in Ireland had
not done their duty in the same way as it
had been done in Scotland, and he thought that this was a
great reason for refusing the motion. The Noble Nord at the
head of the Irish Commission had ascertained that it was ut-
terly impossible to provide for the poor without out-door re-
lief. The Noble Lord who had opened the debate had put the
objection that it was necessary when the workhouses were full
they must provide some means to meet the deaciency. Take
the ease of the southern and western counties. And boir was
that expenditure to be met ? He thought-that'could only be
done by some system of colonisation. He had the other day
the pleasure of reading a letter from Mr. Murray, who was at
the head of the Provincial Bank of Ireland, and he believed
that that gentleman had the command of a staff which gave
him opportunities of gaining information which few people pos-
sessed. The bank had branches in the several pro .
vinces and districts of Ireland, and the only re-
medy which he could conceive as likely to lead
to a remedy for the distress in Ireland, was by some extensive
system of colonisation. Mr. Murray was allowed to be a very
sensible man, and considering the opportunities of information
which he possessed, he thought that his recommendation was
worthy of the highest respect. He bad not the slightest inten-
tion of saying more than one word on this question, but he had
been led into these details by his interest in the position of the
country.
Earl MOUNTCASHEL was quite astonished that the mo-
tion of the Noble Lord had met with so much opposition. It
was well known that upwards of 2,400,000 acres were employed
in the cultivation of the potato. The whole of that provision
had been lost to the country, and as the rental of the land in
Ireland was only, according to the report of the Poor-law
Commissioners, about 13,400,000/. ; and how, then, was this
to be sufficient, when the support of the people would cost
twenty millions. He sincerely trusted that the Noble, who had
shown so much information, and who had cited so many
authorities, would press this motion to a division, for if he did,
he should feel himself bound to give him his support.
Lord MONTEAGLE said that after the long time during
which he had trespassed on their Lordships he should not
occupy more than five minutes. He would put it to the House
whether, after what he had stated and the way in which
he had' been answered, his arguments were not most
triumphant. He might .not be successful in this division, but
he felt satisfied that the arguments which had been adduced
this night would have their full effect in hindering that wild
course on which the Government bad so hastily entered.
Under any circumstances he should certainly press his motion
to a division.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion l2
Against it ... 39
Majority against the motion —27
Their Lordships then adjourned at Twenty Minutes to One
o'clock.

HOUSE OZ CUM:IIOIVS. March 26.
The SPEAKER took the Cnair at Four o'clock.
CALEDONIAN RAILWAY BILLS.

Mr. GREENE moved that the following
Classifica-
tionrecommenda-
Committee of Railway Bills be considered, viz.:—
ion contained in the Third Report from the "
Your Committee recommend that the Caledonian
Railway Bill, No. 205, be divided into two
Bills ; the first to contain Edinburgh Station and
branches to Granton and Edinburgh and Glasgow Rail-
way. The second to contain branches to Wilsontown,
Fauldt,ouse, Biggar, and Broughton. The first Bill to
remain in his Group; the second to be placed in Group
47." That the order made on the 15th day of Feb-
ruary last, for referring. the -raid Bill to the Com-
Mittee of Selection be read, and '-discharged:
That the Bill be withdrawn. That leave be given
to bring in a Bill to enable the Caledonian Railway Com•
pans to extend their station iu Elinburgh, and to make
branch railways to Granton and to the Edinburgh and
Glasgow Railway ; and that Mr. Hope Johnstone, Mr.
Lockhart, and Mr. Hodgson Bin& do prepare and bring
it in. That leave be given to bring in a Bill to enable
the Caledonian Railway Company to make branch rail-
ways to Wilsontown, to Fauldhouse, and to Biggar and
Broughton ; and that Mr. Hope Johnstone, Mr. Lock-
hart, and Mr. Hodgson Hindu do prepare and bring it in.
—Agreed to.
PETITIONS ON PRIVATE BILLS.
Mr. GREENE moved " That it be an instruction to
Iwshthichday o
shallf
be appointed to meet on
April,
to entertain any
petitions which may be referred to them, provided the
the
Thursday,Committees
the
same are presented on or before Monday, the 12th day
of April."—Agreed to.
THE BRIGHTON POLICE.
Captain PECHELL presented a petition from several
parties in Brighton, complaining of the conduct of the
police and the borough magistrates, inasmuch as they
had been placed in cells, and not allowed to communicate
with any one except in the presence of the police ; and
that subsequently they were dismissed without any in-
quiry being made into the truth of the charge made
against them. The Hon. Member also presented a peti-
tion from Worcester agaDUCATION inst the Poor Removal/Act.
E.
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD presented two peti-
tions from Rochdale against the proposed Government
erant for education.
EDINBURGH AND PERTH RAILWAY BILL.
The second reading of this Bill was postponed till
Monday next.
IRISH POOR RELIEF BILL.
Mr. GREGORY presented several petitions in favour
of this Bill.
SCOTCH REGISTRATION BILL.
Mr. MATHESON presented a petition from the
schoolmasters of Dingwall against the proposed Regis-
tration Bill for Scotland.
CIARING-CROSS BRIDGE BILL.
This Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be
committ'd.
Mr. GREENE presented a petition against it, which
was referred to the Committee on the Bill.
GOVERNMENT PLAN OF EDUCATION.
Mr. BRIGHT preseutei several petitions against the
minutes of Council recommending the increased grant
for education,
Mr. C. BERELEY presented two petitions to the
same effect.

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY MORNING, MARCH 27, 1847.

candle Life Assurance Society; Staffordshire Potteries
Waterworks; Stockport Manorial Tolls and Bridges;
Swansea Docks; Terringtun Marsh Division, Allotment,
and Inclosure; Wakefield Market; Wisbech Port and
Harbour.

One part of the Irish case differed from the other part
of the Irish case, and one part of the Scotch case dif-
fered from the remainder. If he were justified in ask
ing for a Select Commits ,e—if he were justified when
he gave notice of the motion—he was so far from
being dissuaded from it by the aunoucemi nt
made by his Right Lion. Friend, that he was still
further encouraged to persevere from the very reason
that the mind of the Right Hon. Gentleinan was not
made up upon this subject. Whilst up to the
present time he had thought that the dif-
ferential duty should be sixpence, he had now
consented to give way; and, though he did
not acknowledge that his mind was changed, still he
had changed the measure of the Government. He could
ussure the Right Hon. Gentleman that if he were put
upon that Committee, so little was he prejudiced upon
the subject, so little was his desire to give any advantage
to the British distiller over the colonial producer of rum,
that if it could be proved to him that there was a neces-
sity for 9d. instead of 6d., or that there should be no
differential duty at all, he would be the first man to pro-
pose such a measure to the Committee. It was not
very long ago since an Act was passed relating
to the differential duties between the Channel Islands
and Great Britain. That Act was the 65th sec. of the
8 and 9 Vict. In that Act it was stated that
is. 2d. was the amount of the countervailing duty be-
tween the spirits from the Channel Islands and
the agricultural produce of Great Britain.
He had, therefore, a right to assume that the sum of ls.,
or at least was a just assessment as between rum
and British spirits, because the Act of which he was
speaking recited in its preamble that the object of the
Bill was to determine what was the extent of the Ex-
cise restrictions, and the House by passing that Bill
had decided that the extent of the Excise restrictions
amounted to Is. 2d. The Excise laws were altered in
1823, not for the advantage of the distiller, but for the
better collection of the Excise duties. The result was
that every distiller was forbidden to distil and brew at
the same time, and to brew and distil on the same pre-
mises. Every distiller was consequently obliged to
double his plant, to increase the size of his premises,
and to increase the number and size of his coppers. The
effect of which was that a distiller, whose business,
could be carried on for 40,0001, required a
capital of 80,0004—(Hear.) - He was putting the
Irish part of the case first. Now it was given in evidence
before a Committee which sat in 1823, that an Irish
distiller, who produced 60,000 gallons of whisky in his
business, and who previously required but 5,0001. as
his capital, was in consequence of these new re-
strictions obliged to increase his plant, and to lay
out 5,000/ more in order to conduct his business.
101. per cent. would be the result, or 5001. a year,
which would have to be charged against 60,000 gallons.
5001. divided over 60,000 gallons would give exactly this
result. The next item was the loss of material
arising out 'of these restrictions. These re-
strictions obliged the distiller to brew at a
certain gravity—to give so many days' notice of his in-
tention to brew, and al many hours' notice of any
removement he makes. Thus he was sometimes
obliged to stop his works for twelve hours—to
allow his furnaces to become extinguished, causing a
waste which was estimated at - one-twelfth of the
whole produce. The Irish distillers estimated the loss
in this way at 2d. a gallon. Then there was the loss in
wages, because it was necessary to pay the workmen
during these temporary stoppages ; in fact it was
necessary for the distiller to increase the num-
ber of persons in his employment, to expend
double time, and to pay double wages.—(Hear.) Irish
distillers put this at ls. 2d. per gallon (as we under-
stood). Then again with respect to yeast.—(Hear,
hear.) In making spirits, owing to the restrictions, it
was necessary to use fresh yeast at every brewing, which
would not be necessary if the restrictions were removed.
It was a fact that under the operation of the Excise laws
the distillers were obliged to let their yeast run down
the gutter, and to purchase the same from other parties.
The distillers of •Galway, of -Belfast, and of Drogheda,
were thus obliged to 'tome to. the London mar.
ket in order to purchase yeast,, while they thern.:
Selves were obliged Co waste it. The expense of yeast
to the galloo was a yenny, There were. 26,000,000 of
011614 ot-spirits distilled in England and Ireland, which;
at id., would give an amount of 110,0007. of wrs-e turned
down the gutter, under the operation of the Excise law.
That made sid. They then cause to the malt duty. He
was now speaking of Ireland. In what was
called the raw corn spirit, about two-thir-
teenths of the corn was malted ; therefore,
if they charged an amount equalling two thirteenths
on the whole quantity employed, the malt duty being
ls. 4d. a gallon, it would give a duty of 2d. per gallon
for malt duty alone. A high authority in these matters
in former times—he meant the late Mr. Huskision—
maintained that the whole malt duty was in itself a
heavy charge, but that the restrictions on malt added
one-half to the amount of duty, to the real
cost of malt ; for the same restriction that applied
to spirits applied also to the making of malt.
In cold weather the barley required more than forty
hours for its proper steeping, but in warm weather less.
The Excise laws would not, however, change the hour,
and in many instances in warm weather the barley
sprouted and was spoiled. The loss in this way was
2s. 6d. per quarter. He then came to another subject,
which was called, in the language of distillers, the
decreases. In England the duty was charged upon
British spirits as they left the worm bead, but it was
charged upon rum, not as it left the East and West Indies,
or arrived in this-country, but as it came out of bond.
lie found :by a !return, ordered by that House on the
29th May last, that the allowance made to the rum pro.
(lacers was-elin England, three six-tenths of a penny ;
in Ireland, seven seven-hundredths of a penny ; and in
Scotland, eight five-tenths of > a penny, upon . each
gallon. In England, out of 2,411,001 gallons
imported, 76,794 had been allowed, the money for
which, as returned for deficiency and leakage,
was 36,248/. In Ireland 737 gallon were allowed,
at a sum of 3471. upon 30,770 gallons introduced, and
in Scotland the sum of 1,5341. was allowed for 3,287
gallons, out of 43,135 gallons imported. He would now
calculate what would be the amount of drawback (if
such it might be called) to the rum producers of Eng-
land, Ireland, and Scotland. He found that the
drawback to the rum producers of England would
be three 4-10ths of a penny ; Ireland two 1-Bths;
and Scotland, four 3-10ths of a penny.--(Hear, hear.)-
The result of all theist!, disadvantages, as far as the dis-
tillers were concerned, was that it would take 11-td. and
/I- of a penny to put them on a par with the colonial
distillers, whereas it was only proposed to take off 9d.
per gallon. In addition to this the distillers had to con-
tend with many other disadvantages. Another example
of the same kind was the removal of the glass duties.
For that measure the country was indebted to the Hon.
Baronet the Member for Tamworth. Although his:(Sir
R. Peel's) sanguine expectations bad not been realised,
yet the result was perfectly surprising. By a return laid
on the table of the House last year it appeared, that
owing to the increase for sheet and plate
glass, the manufacturers had increased their
Works. New works had been erected in Dublin,
Belfast, Hull, and other places. The want of
skilful hands was much felt—in fact, so much was this
scarcity felt, that the workmen who could be obtained
had forced their employers to allow them higher wages,
and they had been increased in consequence 301. per cent.
—as they received from 41. to Si. a week. He thought
in the case of glass he had shown a very strong example of
what the removal of Excise duties would accomplish, for
it must be borne in mind that as regarded the glass duties,
the removal of the Excise duties upon it had not led to any,
increased exportation of the article. The increase was
created at home, as shortly after the repeal of the duties
in this country the duties on foreign glass were re-
pealed, so that English and foreign glass came at once
into competition, and they competed on equal terms.
He was justified from
the increase of the home con-
sumption in these articles to suppose,' that if the Excise
duties were amended, and greater facilities given to
to the distillers in their manufacture, an enormous
increase would be the result. As regarded the
case of Ireland, there was another conside-
ration which the House was bound to entertain

Whisky was the great drink of Ireland, but a
very small proportion of that whisky was
made from malted corn. The advantage which
arose from the malting of barley was. that
it was deprived of its poisonous qualities. As only
100,000 gallons were distilled from barley so prepared.
it followed of .course that the mass of the Irish popula-
tion drank a poisonous instead of a wholesome liquor.
The exports of foreign spirits from this country were
enormous, but no British spirits were enabled to be ex-
ported at all. That was the case with Irish spirits ;
what was the case with regard to England. The Eng-
lish distilleries did not consume half the quantity of
grain that was consumed by the Irish distillers, for they-
rectified the spirits they manufactured instead of malt •
lug them. The English distiller also claimed id. per
quarter on foreign barley employed in the manufacture
of spirit. If, then, the house would consider the several
items they would find the duty on barley amounted to
id., on malt 21d., the charge on increase plant Id., the
interest on money required for increased plant Id., the
loss by allowing the yeast to run down the gutters Id.,
the loss on material 2d., the duty on the decreases 3d.
4•loths, the interest on the amount of duty paid in ad-
vance, id., and the loss by the prohibition to allow the
distillers to rectify their own spirits 3d., they would find
that upon the whole of the items a charge was made of
134 d. and 3-20ths of a penny on the home producer.
He would now finish with the Scotch case. It differed
from the English and the Irish case in this, that 00-
thirds of the spirits made in Scotland was malt spirits.
They had the same restriction with regard to the excise.
As a set-off to the 34d. to which he had referred in the
Irish case, and the 2id. in the English case, they had
the entire malt duty to pay, with the exception of the
Bd. of drawback. In the manufacture of Sccteb

SPirits, a duty was paid on the malt of is. 4d. per gallon.
The various items made altogether 190. and 3 20th of
Id. in addition to another id. which ought to be chargH
for interest ; or, taking Mr. Huskisson's estimate, at 4c13
less, 1514. and 3. 20ths of Id., to which Scotland would
be entitled, to put her on equal terms with the produe
of foreign countries.—(Hear, hear.) He thanked th 4
House for the patience with which they had listened td
his statement.—(Hear, hear.) He thought he h&c}
shown the House just reasons for referring the subject;
to a Committee up-stairs,—(Hear, hear,)—where wit
nesses might be examined, and where they might deli-'
berately ascertain what was the exact justice of the case:
He was no advocate for any wanton interference with!
the EnOish, Irish, or Scotch distillers, or for giving theinl
any undue advantage over the Colonial 'distillers.'
He was no advocate for any monopoly whatsoever, but sought only exact justice between both parties ; and the
case he sought could only be properly investigated in -a
Select Committee up stairs, consisting of impartial per-
sons. The Noble Lord concluded by submitting 'his
motion, and re:unied his seat amidst loud cheers.
Tha CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, who'
was ‘ery imperfectly heard, said, that he thought that
his Noble Friend, in his anxiety to make a good case,
had somewhat exceeded the amount of grievances which