The Sun.
London, England, 1841-05-11 00:00:00

ADJOURNED DEBATE.

On the Order of the Day for resuming the debate ad-
journed from Friday last being read,
Mr. EWART rose and said that this question was
looked upon by some as a subject of party struggle, and
that the measures introduced by her Majesty's Govern-
ment were attributed, not to financial considerations,
but to political motives. For his part, however, he felt
that the people of this country would not enter into such
questions, but that they would judge of the measures upon
their own merits. They would merely ask whether the
measures were conducive or not to the prosperity of
the country ; he was sure, at least, that that was the only
consideration which would have any weight in that great
commercial district, which extended from Lancashire
to Yorkshire. He believed that the alterations
contemplated by the Government would be gladly hailed
by the manufacturers of that district of the empire,
and that they would not attend to any insinuations as to
the motives of Ministers which might emanate from
the other side of the House. They would also inquire
by what means Hon. Gentlemen would meet the defi-
ciency in the revenue, which they were the first to reprobate.
He should like to know what they had to substitute for
the measure before the House. Were they prepared to
substite for it a tax upon property ? If not, he should
like to know how they proposed to pay the interest on
our enormous debt, or to satisfy the commercial wants
of the country ? The country expected to hear, from
them, or from their leader, some statement of the mea-
sures by which they were prepared to meet the emer-
gency, and to protect the country in a crisis they had
so vividly described. There was one circumstance in the
course of the debate, which Hon. Members had not
adverted to, namely, that the Government had drawn a
clear distinction between sugar, the production of slave
labour, and that produced by-free labour, having imposed
upon the former s-duty of 425., but on the latter a duty
of only 365. It was right to call the attention of the
country to this omission. He (Mr. Ewart) had had I
the honour, with the Hon. Member for Beverley, to
stand up, through many a long debate, against the sys-
tem of West India monopoly, and in claiming the right of
equal duties for the continent of India. Since that
period a change had come over the spirit of his Hon.
Friend, who was now an ardent supporter of the mono-
polising proposition of the Noble Lord (Lord Sandon).
They had been assailed from the beginning of this debate
with the constant cry of " protection,"—a cry, in his opi-
nion, utterly at variance with the interests of the public,
and which ought not to be responded to by a majority of

' that House. Some thirty or forty years ago, a similar
exclamation was raised on the part of the West Indian
interests, when it was proposed to admit foreign cotton
into the markets of Great Britain. About the year 1784
American cotton was almost unknown in this country ;
and it was t singular fact that the custom-house officers
of Liverpool refused to admit the first cargo of cotton which
came from the United States, from an idea that in that
country it could not be produced. Had the attempt
which was then made succeeded, where would have been
that colossal fabric, the cotton manufacture, at once the
wonder and the envy of the world ? He appealed to
them in behalf of the consumers of this country to
extend to sugar the same principle which, fortu-
nately for the interests of the country, had been applied
to cotton, in the assurance that as in the one case it was
for the interest of the country that the protection should
be withdrawn from cotton, it was for the interest of the
country, equally in principle if not in degree, that it should
be withdrawn from sugar. The Noble Lord the Member
for Liverpool, and those who thought with him on this sub-
ject had asked for further protection. How long was it meant
that that protection should be extended ? He believed the
longer an approximation towards an equality of duties was
delayed the worse would it be for the interests of
the country. If they continued to foster and pamper
up these interests they would never be able to
endure a wholesome exposure to commercial freedom.
The longer they maintained those monopolies the
less monopolists would be able to meet a vigorous
opposition from commerce in other parts of the world.
Not only did the West India interests seek to
maintain their monopoly, but they were assailed
also on the part of the West India interest.
He earnestly hoped that as the commercial part of the
country at least was resisting the continuance of the
West Indian monopoly, that it would equally resist the
imposition of any monopoly, on the part of the East Indies
which, added to the other, would depress the commercial
energies of the country, in a manner that it would never
be able to get rid of. The arguments in favour of pro-
tecting duties were confined to three points-Ist, that the
imports would be sufficient for the demands of the
country, even continuing the present system of mono-
poly ; next, that the revenue proposed to be raised
by the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be insuf-
ficient ; and lastly, they endeavoured to show that the
price, under the existing system of protection, would be
sufficiently low to meet the wants of the consumer.
110,000 tons was the quantity of sugar that was expected
from the West Indies ; the West Indians themselves
calculated it at 150,000 tons, but he had been informed,
upon good authority, that the former calculation was the
more correct one. In Demerara the falling off had been
considerable, and from the Mauritius no more was to be
expected than last year. There was a large stock
on hand but that was easily accounted for by the
high price which sugar bore of late, which had decreased
the consumption. It was calculated that we would get
56,000 tons from the East Indies, making a total of
194,000 tons, which was almost the exact quantity we im-
ported 12 years ago, although the population had increased,
according to the best calculatons,atleast 'l5 per cent.
He (Mr. Ewart) was anxious for the good, both of the
consumers and merchants, that the duty on sugar
should be reduced as low as possible. He
was willing to advocate a reduction of the duty
on colonial sugar, and always said that he would give to
the colonists the advantages arising from three princi-
ples :—First, the reduction of the duty ; second, immi-
gration and its consequence, the means of obtaining free
labour ; and last and best of all, the advantages of
free competition. Great Britain ought to be the natural
entrepot for sugar, instead of letting it go to Hamburgh
and other towns on the Continent. Brazil was a country
of the most gigantic resources, which might be here-
after developed to the great and lasting advantage
of this country ; and he trusted that whatever might
be the result of the present debate, the time would come
when that fertile land would be opened to the people of
Great Britain. But he was aware that on the present occa-
sion they would have to encounter the interested op-
position, not only of the West Indian and East In-
dian bodies, but that they would also have to
struggle with the far more formidable phantom of
an anti-slavery opposition. He had always been
anxious, when the question of the sugar duties was be-
fore the House, to draw, if possible, some distinction fa-
vourable to free labour, and adverse to slave labour.
The most mature reflection, however, had convinced

him that such a distinction Was impossible. He did not

believe that any nation could at on such a prin-
ciple. The international commerce of the world
should go on, whatever might be the nature of
individual opinions. A few parties might be
found who, from conscientious motives, would
refuse to use articles which were the produce
of a certain species of labour ; but such reasoning could
not be applied to nations. He also entertained the
firmest conviction that if free labour were admitted
into fair competition with slave labour it would
vanquish it in any market in the world. He found it to
be the result of the inquiries of Mr. Gurney and Mr.
Baxter, that the slave-trade was not to be put down by
cannon or violence, but by commerce and civilization.
Even if we were to make the attempt to maintain freedom
and put down slavery by prohibitory duties, it was im-
possible that we should succeed. The sugars of Brazil
and Cuba would still find their way as an exchangeable
commodity to Hamburgh, and other Continental ports,
and the manufacturers must go there for produce.
Knowing, therefore; that it was impossible by fiscal laws
to suppress slavery, he could not concur in the opinion
which had been expressed by the Hon. Member for
the Tower Hamlets. Commerce itself was the great
emancipator. He knew not by what means slavery had
been more effectually checked in all ages of the world.
Had we refused to admit American cotton into this
country, the effect would have been to perpetuate slavery
in that part of the world. America, confined within her-
self, would have continued the system without a chance
of mitigation.—(Hear, hear.) But what had been
the effect of our commercial intercourse with that nation?
' There was a strong anti-slavery confederacy rising up in
America, which was shaking that system to its foundation.
He thought the proposed reduction of the duties would
enable them to make:arrangements for the extinction of
slavery in the Brazils—he believed all the people of the
Brazils was ready' to meet them on that point, if they
would only introduce a more liberal policy with regard
to articles the produce of the Brazils. His Right Hon.
Friend the Member for the Tower Hamlets, in his vigo-
rous declamation against slavery the other night, seemed
to forget the distresses of the poor of his own country.
In no part had that distress been more severely felt than
among the inhabitants of the Tower Hamlets. He be-
Ilieved that associations had been formed in various parts
of the country to provide a substitute for sugar not only,
for the dearness of its price, but on account of the injus-
tice and exclusive nature of the present protective system.
The privations caused by the present system fell exclu-
sively, upon the poor, and his Right Hon. Friend the
Member for the Tower Hamlets left them uncared for in
his just declamation against slavery. He (Mr. Ewart)
was as ardent an enemy to slavery as any one, even as
his Right Hon. Friend, but in his enthusiasm in that
cause he could not forget the claims of the poor of this
country. Surely if the duties were to be reduced at all,
that was the time—when commerce was depressed, and
did not show its usual elasticity in spring—when our
manufacturers were working only half-time, and our
commercial towns languishing, and the poor suf-
fering great hardships.—(Hear, hear.) The time
was come when some steps must be aken to re-invigorate
the declining commerce of the country. The labouring
classes were suffering great privations, and that, too, at
a time when their habits had changed materially for
the better. These high duties might have been retained
when they were consumers of spirits, but they were now
consumers of coffee and tea. Twenty-five years ago
there was no coffee-house existing in London for the ex-
clusive purpose of selling coffee, now there were 1,800.
In France the protective system had been partially
abandoned, with great benefit -to that country. The
principles' of free trade were extending themselves all
over the world. He deeply felt, that, in i these great
commercial changes, Great Britain ought to take the
lead ; and, as we had been the first by our navi-
gation laws, passed under the iron reign of Crom-
well, to introduce the exclusive system into the
commercial world, so he trusted we should be the
first to hail the new era, and to enter upon the glorious
career which was opening before us. There was a Com-
..

mittee then sitting 'to consider the subject of the ex-
portation of machinery, and he trusted that the result of
their labours would be to legalize such exportation.
Now, if we admitted a free competition in our exports,

- in
we ought to adopt the same principle our imports,
and assert the great doctrine of free trade generally. If
we valued our country, if we wished her to be hereafter
what she was at present, the first commercial country in
the world, we should do so ; if we did not, we should fall
victims to a narrow, exclusive, isolated system which
had ruined the Dutch, and would ruin the English
afterwards. If, on the contrary, we adopted the system
of free trade, we should maintain our right position at
the head of the commercial nations of the world.
Mr. HEATHCOTE could not help thinking that the
scope of the debate would be but ill understood through-
out the country. It appeared to him that there were
two debates -going on at the same time. The one intro-
duced by the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies,
who had stated that he intended to propose a fixed duty
of Bs. on corn, and entered largely into the general sub-
ject ; and the other, introduced by his Noble Friend, the
Member for Liverpool, who had solely confined himself
to the defence of the sugar duties. In the observations
which he was about to offer to the House, he trusted he

might be permitted to say a few words on the larger and
more general question. The Noble Lord the Secretary
for the Colonies had proposed this measure as the first

step in a new course on which he was about to enter, as the
first of a series of alterations affecting our colonial, our agri-
cultural, and our commercial system. The three great
articles which he proposed to touch were corn, timber,
and sugar. With regard to corn he had never known a
more determined feeling of opposition against any propo-
sition to exist throughout the country, than existed
against the proposition of the Noble Lord—it was par-
taken of by all ranks, and was entertained by men of
every political opinion.—(Cheers.) Representing, as he
did, an agricultural interest, he should think himself un-

worthy the position which he occupied, if he did not at
once declare that he would accept of no compromise.—
(Cheers and counter cheers.) The agriculturists gene-
rally were determined to resist a fixed duty—(Cheers)--
but when the Noble Lord talked of a fixed duty of Bs.,
he could not but think that the Noble Lord was talking
of that which he could never for an instant seriously mean
to propose. His Hon. Colleague the other night had said
that he would prefer having no duty at all to such a protec-
tion as would be afforded by a duty of Bs., but he thought
his Hon. Colleague might be quite assured that he would
never have to make his choice of such sad alternatives,

as there was not the slightest chance of the proposition
ever being carried.—(Cheers.) Then with regard to
revenue, it was utterly impossible that such a duty upon
corn could ever realize the expectations of the Chancellor
of the Exchequer. If a scarcity happened, with the
country, as it must necessarily be, dependent upon fo-
reign nations for a supply, it would be impossible that
such a duty could be maintained ; so that the country

.1

would at the same time be afflicted with the two evils;
a scarcity of corn and a defalcation in the revenue.,,,
believed that last year a duty of 1,200,0001. had 7
paid upon corn imported, and now the Chancellor ot
Exchequer calculated upon an increase in that reve.nAt
from the imposition of a fixed duty. Was it
rsib
to suffer a revenue of two millions to be
ject to the fluctuations which must necessarily occur le
times of scarcity ? Some gentlemen said they did not hoed
to carry these measures at present, but that they
to do so at some future time.—(llear, hear.) fie w°.o3
at once join issue with them and say, that as long
of
the Legislature continued, as at present, coinposett,,
sensible men such measures never could be carne •'
thit
(Hear.) How could that which was just to-day be uniire
to-morrow, or that which was true to-night be un'oed
a year hence ?—(Cheers and counter cheers.) lie st• st.
by the present law becaused he believed it to be Po
reasonable, and necessary ; and he believed that in ,this
opinion he was in unison with the great majority °f
constituency. With regard to timber he was far T,l
butsaying that when the protection afforded to any into but
was excessive it would not be right to diminish
regard should be had to the time at which such
rations were proposed, and when he recollected that;
had recently suppressed a formidable insurrectien4l,4
our North American colonies he could not but
it as impolitic to introduce among the colonists a th'eso
subject of irritation, and thought it a poor return t bad
loyal colonists by whose exertions the rebellion st
been suppressed. Besides, he could not forget the gi:eb,
shipping interests of the country, and how bur s :al-
it was to maintain the navy of the country 'fie 0
out a large commercial marine. The securin:o
supply of hardy seamen for the navy was of Prietoe.
value and far beyond any pecuniary considerats
With regard to the sugar duties, he considered niss to
great and costly experiment, but one most &riot of
the honour of the country, was now in the coal be
trial in the West Indies, and one which he she' or
sorry to see abandoned. The Noble Lord, with a ,
liness which did him honour, had stated that ile,,,,,el)ber
not think of attacking the protective duties on tested
and on sugar without attacking the greatest pro Est,
interest of all. So he, as representing that
would say that they would never think of defer esa
themselves alone, but also defend the other intero,
attacked with it.—(Cheers.) Why did not the rdis,ajo
facturing interests, who were so clamorous for free
for everybody else, abandon their own protective &Toe.
—(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Hume.) He knew the tio
Member for Kilkenny would say " hear, hear," ltuid
wanted something more than vague declarations. fie smn'ier,/
like to see some one connected with those interests ee-ribe
forward with a motion to that effect.—(Cheers.)
Hon. Member for Wigan had talked about our se'ntil
an example of free trade to foreign countries, but
_wt•be
they follow it ? He thought not, and as he preferred felt
substance to the shadow, and practice to theory, he 0,
himself with great regret compelled to vote agains,t,;,,)
nisters on this occasion.—(Cheers from the oppos',"-ed
Mr. LASCELLES who was very indistinctly Poo'
in the gallery, protested against the Ministers e the
gating to themselves exclusively the credit of being the
champions of free trade. Mr. Huskisson had began , the
system, and he had no doubt his Right Hon. Fria' col'
Member for Tamworth, would be fully prepared t° ooe
low up Mr. Huskisson's policy. The question we? dby
snrrounded by difficulties, which had been increase arty
the conduct of the Government in making i t a Pride
question. With respect to the principle of free ,re,
he cordially concurred in it, and thought that alitioo
strictions might be relaxed, provided such relit° or
took place gradually and in a manner consonant Too
present artificial state. He would not taunt owstir
with having brought forward their propositions to
otest
port a tottering Government, but he would Pr
against their right to go to the country as
exclusive advocates of free trade. Ijob
Mr. GROTE said he perfectly agreed with the de
Member for Lincoln, in considering this as one ttilt
series of measures which were intended to diveiss
commercial tariff of this'country of a restrictive c0_941-
ter. The measures proposed by' her Majesty's 01",,,i`itb'
meat for relieving the present financial difficulties.
out increasing the burdens of the people, met wit or
unqualified approbation. Though there hid been n° on'
mediate financial distress, he would still have ,„eat.
tended that there was ample space . for improveewwere
The three articles included under these propositionsosir
articles of comfort, essential in any domestic es,t3„te'o
meat, whether rich or poor, and in his (Mr. "1.-ettell
opinion the same principle of legislation applied to
of them. The propositions of the Government
theoed
tent of that protection, and in so doing greatly soft
and mitigated its pressure upon the consumers. -tie free,
sidered that the trade in corn ought to be pedectlY if to
and he had already more than once expressed hixoseere
that effect. The proposition of the Government, th re'
fore, fell short of what he thought justice to the countrla be
quired. At the same time a fixed duty of Bs. well/ or
a great benefit, compared with the system now inePeole
tion. Amongst the mercantile community a consinerr,ir,
difference of opinion prevailed as to the propriety o,',l.Toalt
ing protection to the landed interests at all ; some tlivtifere
a
that it should be given, others that it should not ; tto the
was no difference of opinion, he believed, as ,grat•
superiority of a fixed over a fluctuating duty.
cantile
hear.) A fixed duty would be regarded by the mei:vert
'population as a great improvement. It wolild ineii-
the trade in corn from the irregular and preC3rl,°g ; and
ratter which it now had, into a regular proceetdot
and
would prevent the evils arising from those sn voido
unforeseen demands which at present could not be ittr
The Hon. Member for Lincoln had talked about tre of
possibility of maintaining this fixed duty in a °lent of
scarcity. He contended that the present enhancenaeollar
price arose in a great measure out of the very ani
character of the duty, and that the country wen'd witu
case be benefited by the alteration.—(Hear, bear)e(4o
respect to the proposition for an alteration of 1."„., Ives
on sugar, there again the principle of protectw_d the
maintained, but it was limited to what he consider 50
50
very substantial protective duty, and difference U,,f 10
per cent.—(Hear, hear.) Had differential day u.tigo
per cent. been maintained in favour of West Indian, sows!.
over. East Indian, that would have been considered or if
unfair to East Indian interests.—(Hear, hear.) those
the United States had imposed a duty of 50 per een' tbose,
our manufactures, over and above what it imposed `9_,Tl ts
of France, there would have been serious comphuniii be
the disfavour shown to England. It could not, the 0,0
contended that a differential duty of 50 per cerit;boliG
not a substantial protection.—(Hear, hear.) Throu,
the whole of this debate great stress had been laid uscre
the encouragement which would be given by this ulda pOt
to slave-made productions. He must say he con' thi4
concur in the opinion which had been expressed ou
sir
subject. There had been loud denunciations against t tve
very, but what was proposed ? Was it proposed th,aooo
should remonstrate with slave-holders, or that we s,lls
use force to abolish the system, or that we shoulaiirthe
an interdict on certain articles of food ? Why eve dis.
Hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets had distinctlf, not
claimed any such intention. If Gentlemen won-Riot,
go that length they must be prepared to reason the
,ibio
ter not as one of conscientious objection but a roe
prudence and policy.—(Hear, hear.) They- deo°11,1„,
the slave-holders of Cuba and Brazils, but upon wilywhf
reality did the weight of their displeasure fall ?
not upon the slave-holders, but upon the consowoo
They were punishing the poorest portion of 015 ioe.
population, while they were thinking to punish the It
holders of _ Cuba and the Brazils.—(Hear, bear') hicli
should he remembered that the restrictive policy' v!j en-
had been adopted for the suppression of slavery ha
tirely failed to produce such a result, and had even that
the contrary effect.—(Hear.) His own opinion svnsioey
commercial intercourse would have the direct tenub, by
to diminish slavery. By persuasion, by inducenientieo,
intercourse much might be done to mitigate the s).s%`eri
The Noble Lord who had opened the debate had dwelt ins
much on the example of England in inducing other oa'r to.
to abolish slavery. It appeared to him that the line e,'
gument adopted by that Noble Lord was calculatcoi
an-
ther to encourage than repress slavery ; for he 113;40r
gued as if the productions of that system were slved?
to those of free labour.—(Hear, hear.) He belies
however, with his Hon.' Friend the Member for NI 48ra,
that that argument was founded on an entire rilitP„roso
hension of the subject. The question before the l'-ter
was not whether they should or should not give PTeit
tion to colonial interests, but whether they should g'sver
to a greater extent than a differential duty of 50.
cent. It appeared to him most unreasonable to claps
higher duty. He would not draw- pictures of ells be'
which prevailed throughout the country, because he iota
lieved that such a course seldom influenced the decTiot
of the House. He would, however, remind the Hoosejore
the aggregate consumption last year was sometbingwhich ,
than 180,000 tons. The addition made to the taxation, Ile
pressed upon the people was no less than 1,600,000/•
fed
therefore called upon them to pause before they eoncel`tijo
to impose so enormous a burden upon the people, not for. 6
purpose of replenishing the Exchequer or the coon„.lt
but for the purpose of protecting a private interest.
re,
would be much more consistent with their duty, as
presentatives of the people, to study in what manner Weft
could best diminish those burdens.----(Hear, hear.) pr
few days ago he had presented a petition, numerous it
signed by the mercantile community of London—a 111,;j,
enligb(ened class of men, praying for a tu
revision of our tariff. He rejoiced that the 111inistr:,
had come forward with a measure that went so far to lot
complish the wishes of the petitioners—(Cheers)re
he felt quite satisfied that it would lead to a very lfbe
extension to the trade of the country.--(Cheers.) , to
remission of the duties upon :Agar would tend greativ
make London the centre of the sugar trade for all itch
rope, as Hamburgh now was.—(Cheers.) With. 11 of
feelings he gave his humble support to the propositio fah
the Noble Lord, which, he trusted, would be succescea
and would be followed up when the proper time arila.
by measures directed towards the same end, and v-
ceived in the same spirit.—(Cheers.)
theliHr.ouCs? LtoQtijhellaN thabtetreedy wtoerecnallot dthisecuaststienligtitn°ll-woe,
tion for the House to go into a Committee of free trim
but a Committee of Ways and Means to consider of
ora
scale of sugar duties.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble 14,e,
on Friday night stated that he appeared there as the
cis,
presentative of the people of England, but they vox
claimed such championship most emphatically, as tile
shown the other day at Nottingham, where„„nr
Ministry was even more unpopular than the -1-,,,:;e0
laws. The finances of the country had now uors,
under the control of the Government for six edy
and certainly they were in a bad state, but the re'-ne ;
proposed by the Noble Lord was not the proper °of
the only real remedy was to place them in othelrio
better hands.—(Cheers.) There was a party as an-. 11)•
that the change should take place.—(lronical cheerio 00
Hon. Gentleman might put their own construction be
what he said, but he meant by the party to wil° tea
had alluded, that party who were not fitly repreeat
by the Noble Lord—the people of England ; that'l4s
and influential party were most anxious that the
should be relieved from all the cares and responsibiteld,
of office ; nay, he believed the constituencies of Shells to
Leeds, and every other great town were auxi° mou.
follow the example of their fellow workmen of &Wog"

According to the statements of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, the President of the Board Qf Trade, when bring-
ing forward his Rum Bill, the quantity of sugar grown in
th 3 East India ceonies would increase very consider-
ably ; but, even admitting that no increase took place,
there would be an ample supply at a price which could
not be complained of. The House had to choose between
cheaper sugar—cheaper by some infinitessimal fraction of
a farthing per lb., by grinding down the unhappy slaves
on the soil of Cuba and the- Brazils, or to extend a fair
proportion of protection to their West India colonies.
That was the proposition Ministers had ventured to sub
ni4.t. to a British House of Commons ; but, thank God,t
there was public spirit and humanity that
enough in t
House to reject such monstrous propositions.—(Hear, ha t
hear.) Mr. Deacon Hume, in his remarks upon
subject, said he could not conceive, after the vast expen-
diture which the British Government had made for the
abolition of slavery, that they would ever entertain any
question of placing the produce of free labour in Jamaica
in competition with the slave-grown sugar of Cuba and
the Brazils. He could not for a moment entertain so
absurd a proposition as the bringing forward such mea-
sures as these, under the plea of an encouragement of
free trade. He thought the great object of these manu-
facturers of Linea-hire and Sheffield, and other places,
was to keep the good markets they had got. Now,
the Brazils took from them 2,600,0001. instead of
5,000,000/. as had been most erroneously stated by the
Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
On the other hand, they had the East Indies t.q.1.-ing from
them five millions of their manufactures, the West le4.ies
• taking four millions, and the North American Colonies
tithing three millions, and the Right Hon. Gentleman
would sacrifice all these for the trade of the Brazils.—
(Hear, hear.) He denied, even if the proposed measure
was passed, that there would be any increase of their trade
with the Brazils. That, at all events, was an uncertain
increase, while their present markets with their own colo-
nies was certain and progressive. What was the state of
progress of the exports to these places. The increase to
the Brazils during the last ten years had been only 8 per
cent. ; to the North American Colonies, in the same
Inriod, it was 64 per cent—(Hear, hear)—to British
India, it was 84 per cent., to the West Indies, it was
Was 40 per cent. To foreign countries generally it was
35 per cent., and to their own colonies it was 61 per
cent.—(Hear, hear.) What was the natural inference ?
Why,, that while they should endeavour to maintain
their markets with foreign countries, they should more
especially take care of their trade with their own colo-
nies. He believed the present was the first time that in
that House commercial questions had been made the
subject of party warfare.—(Ministerial cheers.) His
(Mr. Colquhoun's) side of the House had been charged
with being influenced by factious motives, but what he
thought was a factious proceeding, was when a Ministry
had been ten years in office without ever having brought
forward any measures based upon the principles of free
trade ; when they found their energies paralysed, when
they found themselves unable to carry any measure,
when they had only to take up a question to damage
and injure it—at such a time it was in
his judgment nothing but faction and absurdity to throw
up their caps in favour of free trade.—(Loud cheers.) On
these grounds he should give his hearty concurrence to
the motion of his Noble Friend the Member for Liver-
pool.—(Hear, hear.) •
Mr. R. H. GREY had heard the announcement made
by her Majesty's Government with very great pleasure.
It was one fraught with the greatest benefit to the manu-
facturing interests, which it was needless for him to re-
mind the House was at present in a most depressed state.
—(Loud cheers.) He had hoped that the very
magnitude of these measures would have secured
them the approval of all parties ; that, considering
they had a falling revenue, and that it was not
proposed to lay on any additional taxes, that the
comforts of the poorer classes would be increased, and that
trade would have been improved. Taking all these ad-
vantages into consideration, he thought it would have
entirely conciliated public favour. He had hoped that
even the monopolists themselves, however careless they
Might be of the interests of the public at large, would
nevertheless have given a tacit consent to the measure.
But it now appeared that the interests of party were for
the present to prevail—that the interests of the few were
to prevail over the many, and the interests of a class
over that of the public at large. He would remind the
House of the efforts which the Noble Lord (J. Russell)
had for so many vainly made to obtain representatives
for Manchester, .Birmingham, Leeds, and other large
towns; but when the Noble Lord brought forward a much
more sweeping measure of Reform it was carried, and
was at present the law of the land.---(Hear, hear.)
He was inclined to hope, therefore, notwithstanding
the opposition the present proposition received, that it
would eventually, with many other commercial re-
forms, receive the sanction of that House.—(Hear.)
With respect to the fears entertained relative to the in-
troduction of foreign sugars, he could tell the House
that, during the ten years which elapsed from 1825 to
1835, we were unable to have one pound of Brazilian
sugar imported into this country. So much for the idle
fears entertained about East and West India sugar.
During the last five years, the price of sugar had been
most enormously high ; and, taking the average of
duties, the price of Brazil sugar would have been lower
by ss. 6d. He must say that the Sugar-laws were more
reasonable than the Corn-laws. A great scarcity of
sugar often occurred ; but, however great it might be,
itr
was only reasonable, at all events, when the existing
sugar plantations in the East and West Indies could not
produce within a large amount of the quantity required,
that the people of England ought to be protected against
that scarcity. It was asked how would the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer make up his revenue in
that case ? He answered, that if the East and West
Indies supplied abundance of sugar, the revenue
would be derived from the great quantity of sugar
at the duty of 245. per cwt. Whereas, if a scarcity
took place, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would de-
rive his revenue from the foreign sugar at 365. per cwt.
Under all circumstances of the case, lie (Mr. G.)
thought that a more reasonable proposition could not be
made than that of the Government. It had been said
that the poor and labouring prtions of the opulation of this country 'would be more content with ap dinner of
herbs than with the meat of a stalled ox. It was very
well for those who dined every day on a stalled ox to
talk in that way .; but would the great masses of the la-
reuring population of England submit to their being
prived of what was a necessary of life. The question
on the Sugar Duties was not one of a penny more or less
la the price of Ilb. of that article ; it was a question of the
absolute denial of a necessary of life. He could not
see the necessity of passing a law prohibiting
nine-tenths of the people of England from using what
Was now become a necessary of life, and any law tending
tv
o raise the price of sugar would have that effect. He
reweekl not, on the present occasion, enter into any details
specting the subject of the Corn-laws ; but he wished
make a remark or two on the necessary connection of
the„. two subjects—the Corn-laws and the sugar duties.
-tle thought they ought not to be totally separated.
The • •
ability to consume luxuries depended not
so much en the price of the luxuries as
upon the ability of the people to provide themselves
wwi h the necessaries of life ; therefore the two questions
ere most intimately connected. He was long of
opinion that there was no other means of benefiting the
same great masses of the people of this country, and at the
time of securing the required revenue of fifty mil-
lions, unless by providing the people with an ample sup-
ply of the necessaries of life. All other measures which
did not include that within their compass must end in
failure and disappointment.—(Ministerial cheers.) It
should be remembered that the proportion in which the
labouring classes consumed the necessaries and luxuries
of life was something of this kind--a family earning from
10s. to 12s. per week expended about Is. on sugar, tea,
and coffee, whilst two-thirds of the entire expense of the
family was in food, the necessaries of life alone. If that
quantity of food were not increased, no individual could
have a larger portion of it, nor could his oondition be bet-
twd. Suppose then were ever so great a demand for la-
bour he could not see how it could be made available
for the purposes of taxation, and for this reason, while
the quantity of food was limited, whilst the quantity of
food was insufficient for the wants of the people, every
individual would bring his double wages, and try to get
for them a fair part
of that limited quantity ; and thus
the effect would be to increase the price of food, and if
all went for food, how was the Treasury to be increased ?
The income of the landlords would be increased, but the
treasury of the State would be very little swelled. An
ample supply of the necessaries of hfe could only be se-
cured to the people, by increasing the surface of the
land from which food was produced. He hoped he
would have a future opportunity of going more fully into
this question. There could be no doubt that the taxa-
tion of fifty millions a year was very high, but it should
be raised some way or other. Manufacturers were a
class of persons who were in a very suffering condi-
tion, by reason of the competition to which they
were exposed, and he (Mr. G.) knew of no
means of improving their condition but some such
measure as the Noble Lord had introduced. The only
way of making taxation available to the country--of se-
curing a revenue, was to extend the bases of our opera-
tions. That would increase our general commercial
prosperity, so as to enable the country to support that
which was now a severe burden—the greatly-increased.
Population—in a way which would be consistent with the
welfare of the country.
Mr. WALTER said, in giving his vote on the present
important question, he wished to make a few observa-
tion?. He had voted against that most extraordinary
rant of twenty millions sterling for the abolition of
Vest Indian slavery on other grounds, as well as because
he thought that sufficient inquiry, into the subject had
not been made at the time. Considering the degree to
which sugar in the market had been since that
time affected, that sum fell very far short of
the sums taken from the pockets of the British
people. Between fifteen and twenty millions more had
been expended in attempting to put down the slave-trade,
which was at the present time more flourishing than
heretofore. It had been calculated also the total sum
drawn from the country since the abolition, owing to the
advance on West India produce, and other causes, was
very little short of five millions. After so much was
done for our fellow-creatures of a dark complexion in our
colonial possessions to have them raised to a state of com-
fort, he asked what had resulted from it to the labouring
classes at home, both commercial and agricultural? Was
their condition improved ? On the contrary were they
not rendered less capable of obtaining the nee' essaries of
life, one of which was sugar ? He (Mr. Walter) would
ex
at least hope that a little of that feeling which had been
hibited in favour of the negro would be extended to
our own poor. The Government, it appearecl,had an idea
that by the scheme they proposed, they would lower
the price of the commodities, and increase the revenue.
!lie doubted the possibility of that. In other cases he
len,ght it most desirable, and he would concur in such ;
b.: t he had conversed with most intelligent merchants on
the subject, who were as anxious as Ministers to relieve
trade from all shackles, and he found they had not the
slightest confidence in the financial measures proposed,
Particularly with rArence to the diminution of the