The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-27 00:00:00

ch.g.suchLordships
a ocuort
course
we aso
Ili
dy imagine what a beneficial
tioe fproduce on the constieu
° that
if
lirgued •---(Hear, hear.) A Noble Lord lied
tif this measure were to pass, every soldier
The 4 a the expiration of ten years, leave the army.
argllnsent of the Noble Lord, however, went on the
BaPPesition that every soldier would be so dissatisfied
With
his
at _
enc_ondition, that he would wish to leave the ranks
%hair, dof ten years. He (Lord Grey) did not think
• thotneenaseldier would' be so anxious to leave the army
tinder the of ten years as he was atpresent, because
_, news ystem an improved condition
titakVieace would
the soldier, and the officers knowing that
thatrn a. would have the power to leave at the end of
fors4trtelorde,stveouldd do their utmost to promote the
scomh-
fwelfare of
Rohe principlea the men under them. Such
the Bill. Their Lordships would,
they sou
sight have an opportunity of deciding whether
Shoat the period of ten years too long or too
to present their Lordships were required only
be l'asitilcUi the principles of the Bill. He mignt perhaps
nf the ett
to state what he thought would be the result
be working of this measure but to such a question
eould
tinder Mr.
44, Only reply that the experience which they had
Wyndharn's Act, was so short that it
isuntily did not afford sufficient grounds for coming to
!iYatt;y°ll,e,initicsii". upon the subject, though he thought that
whie4 conclusion could be drawn from the short period
favour
of that Act was iu operation, it was somewhat in
itoporta the Present measure. It was, however, of great
ditien once to provide some means fur raising the
the
con-
teeter army, and for getting rid of the bad cha-
Whoc which the army derived from tke bad characters
went °,l33Posgd it; let it once be considered as a punish.
doubt Lo
be dismissed from the army, and he had no
public that the character of the army would then rise in
flailed esteem. Such a punishment was one much more
thet . to the feelings of the public of this country than
this SY the infliction of the lash. By the a loption of
dispornsetasore the country would also always have at its
for tt a numerous trained population ready to came
vas a `.l in the service of the country. Such a system
found to work well in Prussia, where almost
• th
Of th! Population were compelled for a period
Th -Lee years to serve in the army.—( I leer.)
%twat such a course tended to improve the strength
add to the stability of a continental country
it e„,,"usSia there could be no doubt, but although
astts`"lght be considered necessary fr.r Prussia it
An also equally necessary for this country,
th 'let had been passed in the last session for enrolling
When
Chelsea pensioners, with a view to active service
n required. Under this Act upwards of 13,000 per-
tlals had already been enrolled, and it was quite surpris-
N to see with what ability they performed the various
ZZercises.—(Hear, hear.) This torte KoalJJ, therefore,
be of great service to this country in time of war in
garrisoning the towns of Portsmouth, Plymouth, and the
ether towns of the coast. But if this measure were to
Pass there would be a still greater number of men ready
trained and in the prime and vigour of life, ready at a
moment's notice to come funs-wad for the defence
Of the country, without the great expense at-
!endant upon a standing army, though it would
ran equally effective force. He anticipated
from this measure that the effect would be, that
a smaller number of men would be required for
the
fService of the army, the country having that res rved
°tee upon which to fall back. Gratuitous discharges
;ad been given to soldiers of good character during the
W Past ears; and the persons who availed themselves
of
thosedischarges did not amount to mere than three
three-and-a•half per cent. At present the great ex-
nlent against the dismissal of the bad soldier was, that
if it were carried into effect the good soldier would mis-
h• uet himself for the purpose of obtaining his dis-
arge. There could be no doubt that they would lose
eivalY of the very best of their men, who would obtain
(tileasPPointruents. He hoped that they might do so_
the sr' hear)—for nothing would tend so much to render
se'
not tied it
as the knowledge that the men were
employment to it for life, but that they might obtain other
that at the end of their term. He believed that
sen was One of the reasons why
ti
the French service, in
eise ef the lowness of its ay, was more pop ~ ler than
sine English, He thought that the next point of import-
the, to which they should direct their attenti. n, was
amoun
the „ A of pension which should bd given at
sheul`riu of the usual period of service. There
be some means of encouragement held out to the
selfZ2l r.d after the period of his retirement to join him-
sic
aw.ith companies of pensioners, who would be occa
evi?.llY called out to do duty on certain days in the
:I%r It would require very little or no pains to induce
;le to do this, for in addition to the small annual
the Pleasure,
which would be given to them, they would have
oPleasure, and he believed that it would be no small
ea'r°f again meeting in the ranks their old companions
see,, Ins. The amount of pensions to be given to these
go when they became incapable of supporting them-
the any longer by their own lehour, was 6d. per
ofday.
Pension but
Lord near him smiled at the amount the
efu36l°ll, but he could assure the House, that the amount
ra„_3: GI per week in addition to n hat alit r means a
by saving might have provided, or might be still
t,tiabled to earn by light labour, was by no means con-
sidered
as as a trifling matter. Any increase I sum
in a pension would be found to be most
e vwureesse to the country, for it wool I offer to many the
rantattes of retiring upon their pensions while they
e still capable of service. In 1829, when a man
atter a •
upo a service of twenty-one years was allowed to retire
Pension of Is. per day, it was fouud that the
burldle
that 1.1 upon the country was becoming so very serious
te_ It was compelled to be discontinued. Many of
..""e men were only thirty-eight, thirty-nine, and forty
Years of age when they retired, and it was well known
that they left the service upon the large pension, while
Still perfectly capable of doing further duty. There
been
also a great abuse in another regulation which had
Lwen introduced since, namely, the payment of the pen-
sion to soldiers who were after a certain period incapable
Of doing further duty, and were discharged from the
ranks. The consequence of that was, that a man who
had ruined '
his constitution by the practice of drinking
ardent spirits passed the Chelsea Board, and obtained
his discharge and pension, while those men who
had conducted themselves well, and were fit for further
service were retained. In order to obviate such abuses
it Was proposed that the men in the ranks should re-
ceive a trifling increase of pay for good conduct. The
amount of the increased payment was under certain cir-
cumstances to be added to their pension, and that in-
creased payment would bo regulated in amount accord-
ing to the period of service. He had now touched upon
all the principal heads of this measure. It was one
Which from its complexity and importance demanded
their Lordships most serious attention and considera-
tion. He left it in their hands, at the same time thank-
ing them for the kind indulgence he had received.
Viscount COM BERMERE thought that this measure
would not improve the condition of the army, and in this opi-
nion was borne out by the beet authorities upon the subject.
They could not get a better class of men than those they had
now in the service. He denied that they could get a better
class, but assuming that they did,how long would it take to bring
n
•"eal into a state of discipline, and having at last brought them
into that state how long would they be required to remain in
ale anny afterwards? It would be an impossibility to retain
‘ole troops who were stationed in the colonies in the efficient
state they were in at present, under the operation ot the new.
"Item. They had 198 regiments in all, and of those 72 were
cn foreign service. Why there were no less than 6,000 men
ping nut ancireturning annually from these foreign possessions
e took en intense interest in the welfare of the army, and it
because he did so that he had felt called upon to trouble
their Lordship at so muth length in opposition to the Bill.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said, the Nol le Lord, who
had just sat down, need not have apologised to their Lordships
far detaining them so long, for no Member of that House was
more capable of speaking on this subject than himself. Still,
however, he thought the Noble Marquis was wrong in the
opinion he had formed on this Bill. He should be the last
roan to support it if he felt that it would lead to a diminution
of the old soldiers of the army, but he was convinced that the
~
would produce no such result. No army could exist with-
out a sufficient number of old soldiers. In time of peace and
War the efficiency of the service must be kept up, and that
emild not be done without the army was well supplied
with old soldiers. When any dangerous operations were to
be performed, the old soldier was always the first to
get an example of bravery. The old soldiers of this country
were its safeguard, and if their Lordships passed any measure
that was calculated unnecessarily to reduce their number, they
virtually struck a blow at the defences of the nation. In all
parts of Europe, in the Peninsular, iu North and South Ame-
rica,d in Africa, and in fieinetea,enthtse aernisisteowf, tlheits autettytteatr
aardsniipiss,hgderergeretttoseaci achievements won? Why, through the
instrumentality of the old soldier. He could not instance a
better guidance of, the high value of the old soldier
than by rearm,d ing their Lordshps of the esteem
in which he was held by Napoleon, and well
he might, for through his instrumentality Napoleon
won some of his greatest victories. The old soldiers were there-
fore the ablest defenders of their country, and nothing ought
to be done which could tend to reduce their number. Now, it
was his opinion that this Bill would riot have such an effect,
and he would tell their Lordships why i:e thought so. Their
Lordships must be aware that enlistment for a limited period
had long existed in the army to a small extent, and although
it had failed when carried out more extensively, it had suc-
ceeded in that limited form. This Bill, however, held out
many inducements for good cendnct, and he was strongly im-
pressed with a conviction that these inducements would lead
to a re-enlistment of the soldier at the expiration of the ten
years. lie was, therefore, disposed to try the experiment
of limited enlistment again, and lie entertained the
liveliest hopes for its success. At the end of the
Bill tee years, their Lordships would perceive by the
that the soldier who had behaved himself during that
term of servitude would be entitled to an additional pay of 4d.
her day. and looking to the other inducements of pension and
Promotion that the Bill held out, he must repeat his decided
°Pinion that the soldier would became to comfortable in his
situation, and so attached to the profession that he would be
eertain to re-enlist. Of course his only anxiety was to secure
the efficiency of the public service, and he supported this Bill
because he thought it was calculated to ensure that object.
'ie entreated their Lordships, therefore, to adopt it. For his
own part he would do his best to carry it out. No doubt it
i_snsuld involve the country in some slight additional expense,
but the condition of the soldier could not be improved without
thatl, risk. With regard to the Bill relating to the pensioner,
Zev,thnught that measure was necessary, hut the pensioner to
—am Government ought to pay the most attention,
were the vetran soldiers—those brave men who were the heart
and soul and spirit of the regiment. What he wanted to see
:a; ',good conduct prevail in the army, and to see them treated
...t" good treatment
could
be Produced, and he believed that a system like that pro-
posed by the Government,thatn this m would have a greater effect in pro •
be adopted th
He believed good conduct, tha measure would not have oter course which could
effect
apprehended by his Noble Friend, and that it would
net remove the old soldiers from the regiment. He entreated
their Lordships to adopt the measure.—(Hear, hear. )
The Duke of RICHMOND gave the Government the
fullest credit for good actions with respect to the army, but he
looked with extreme suspicion on the measure before their
Lordships. He considered that great evils would result to the
army from this measure. Its effects would be most injurious
n
on tat part of the army which might be required for service
the coast of Africa, or other unhealthy places. His Noble
Friend had stated that great improvements had taken place in
tin he morals and conditions of the army in general. Why then
the name of Heaven, did they not leave well alone, and not
attempti to introduce any new and hazardous experiment?
This improvement had taken place in the army during a period
of unlimited to 414,04 enlistment; why, then, did the Government wish
saY clew 0)1491u? He thought that it would be

much better better if the Governtnent had made the period of en-
listment for the first for a term of fourteen years, and at the
expiraii in of that time gave the soldier an opportunity of re-
enlistment for a period of seven years more. He thought that
the better way to improve the coedition of the army would be,
to increase the pensions to the soldiers. The principle upon
which these pensions were bestowed were absurd and impolitic.
It might be said that this would entail very great expense on
the country ; the more expensive, however, war was made the
better he liked it, for it would prevent the nation
going to war upon such slight pretences as they were
used to do. He felt the greatest interest in the condi-
tion of the private soldier and the non-commissioned officer,
The infantry, the cavalry, and the ordnance of this country
were the best in the world. The Bight Hon. the Secretary
at War had most injudiciously and incorrectly stated that the
army was at present in a state of slavery, in consequence of
their having enlisted under the present mode. He totally
denied that assertion. They might depend upon it, that if they
should open those advantages to the soldier, they would not in-
duce him to get rid of the only failing the British soldier had to
combat with. He would not. trouble their Lordships with any
further observations, he thanked them for the attention they
had bestowed upon the few remarks he had felt it necessary
to make on the question.
Lord S fltA HORD then addressed the House at some
length, but his observations were perfectly inaudable in the
gallery.
Lord DE ROS had some doubt as to whether the induce-
ment held out by her Msjesty's Government to the old soldier
would cause him to re enlist, or to join those bands of pen..
sioners of which mention hod been made. In the event of its
nit being so, the most serious inconvenience would arise from
the necessity of taking a large number of raw recruits to fill
their room. In the cavalry, of which he was more qualified to
speak than of the infantry, much serious inconvenience would
arise from the recruits' want of knowledge with regard to their
horses. They would require men who were experienced grooms,
and not men who three months before had been tailors or shoe-
makers. He did not see hew such an evil was to be got over.
On these grounds, and on others which he would not trouble
their Lordships by stating, as the objections they contained
had already been put forth by others, he should not support
the Bill.
Lord CLEVELAND said that he did not think that this
measure would accomplish two of the great objects which it
professed to accomplish, namely, that of inducing a better class
of men to enlist in the army, or that of keeping them in the
army when their period of anlistment hed expired. He
thought that twenty years was the utmost period that a soldier
should be called upon to serve, for their Lordships had to con-
sider that he had to bear the extremes of heat and cold—he
had to undergo fatigues and privations, and the effect was that
few after ten years' servitude could boast of a strong or healthy
constitution. lie should certainly recommend that all soldiers
discharged at the end of ten years servitude should have a
pension of 6d. a day.
Lord STANLEY said that he felt the greatest difficulty in
dealing with this question, but his difficulties would have been
greatly increased if he supposed that his Noble Friend the
Duke who sat near him had recommended its adoption to the
Government. But although the Noble Duke had declared
his intention of voting for the second reading of the measure,
still they might rather from his speech that he at best thought
that the evils which were threatened by the measure might
possibly be avoided, and they could easily gather from him, that
he was inclined to think it an uncalled for, and, at best, a
doubtful measure. The Noble Earl sought by it to mike the
army popular, and ;to assist, by the training of an efficient
militia, the military defences of the country. The Noble
Earl's address for the first hour and a half was exceedingly in•
teresting, as showing the efforts that had been made to improve
the condition of the army, but not one word of that portion of
his address had reference to the present measure or in any dis-
tant manner bare affinity to it. Let the Government go on
improving the moral condition of the men—let them improve
their domestic comforts—let them improve the quality
of their, provisions—let them give them libraries and
means of mental recreation, but giving these, would it be al-
leged that they were ir compatible with enlistment for periods
at the individual's pleasure ? It was alleged that the army was
unpopular. Where was the proof that it was so ? Was this
Bill calculated to make it more. so? Ile thought not. lie had
returns of the enlistment from 1817 to 1838 (and this in a time
of peace) in the London district, and he found that out of the
immense number of 19,006 who had enlisted, only 218 had
chosen the period of limited service. But he would take a
stronger case. He found that from the year 1519 to the year
1828, 39,687 persons had enlisted in Dublin, and out of this
number only 95 men had chosen the limited period of service.
But this system was put an end to in 1829 by
an from order from the Government? Then why
appeal to that House on this question ? Why appeal to
Parliament then ? An order could at once command that
limited enlistment should be the rule from that stay forward.
They took from the- agricultural labourers, who were their
best recruits—they took from the manufacturing districts who
were their next best recruits—but if they passed this Bill,
they would begin to take from the class of lawyers clerks, and
the result would be, that they would have a dissatisfied and in-
subordinate body of men in the army. It was his opinion that
those who entered tile army as the law now stood, considered
that it did not matter whether they inlisted for a limited period
or for life ; but if their Lordships passed this Bill, they would
be holding out an inducement to the scope-grace or
uethinking youth to enter the army.—(Hear, hear.)
It would lead to the manning of the service
by a class of men who would look upon their duties as a tem-
porary occupation, instead of a profession. Now, the success
of' the army—the efficiency of the army it would be denied by
no party, depended upon the existence of a different feeling.
Just fancy then applying the same rule to any other trade or
profession. Could they ever ensure success or perfection in any
calling, where a feeling was only encouraged, that the parti-
cular trade or profession was to be temporary and not permanent.
The idea was opposed not only to experience, but to common
sense, and yet that was in point of fact the principle enunciated
in this Bill. He had now disposed of the arguments of three
points urged in favour of this Bill by the Noble Earl who intro-
duced it, and he had now to say a word, and a word would be
enough, to the reason adduced by a Noble and Gallant Gene-
ral, who he did now see in his place, in support of this Bill.
The Noble and Gallant General seemed to think that the pro-
visions of this Bill would prevent the desertion of the soldier
who hid served in the army for some length
of time. Why, were was the necessity for a
Bill to prevent such an occurrence as that, when
he found, by the published returns, that of the number of persons
who deserted from the British army, nearly the whole of them
where young recruits, who were disgusted with the hardships
and severe discipline of the first year's drill. The same Noble
Lord also remarked that the provisions of this Bill would have
the effect of inducing commanding officers to pay more atten-
tion to the conveniences and comforts of his m
ea.Suchanargument as that only served to threw discredit upon the exer-
tions of past commanding officers, while it only al-
tered the present principle thus much, that if a soldier
misbehaved himself, this Bill would place in the
hands of his commanding officer power to offer a reward
instead of chastisement for amendment, and thus held out a
premium for the acts of the wrong-doer. Looking, then, to
the experience of the past, and acting upon the conclusions
that such experience must lead to, be called upon their Lord-
ships, notwithstanding the opinion of the Noble Duke the
Commander-in-Chief, not to pass the measure.
The Earl of HARDWICK said he rose to call the atten-
tion of their Lordships to a branch of this subject which had
not yet been touched upon. Their Lordships were aware that
this Bill applied to the marines as well as to the army. Now,
it was well known that it took five years' servitude to make a
good marine. It was absolutely necessary, therefore, that the
enlistment of marines should take place for a longer period than
ten years.
fhe Marquis of LAN SDOWNE said that it was with the
most sincere conviction that he believed the present measure
would tend to popularize the army, and by so doing improve
its moral condition. He could not, for a moment, believe that
the passing of this measure would be attended with that
risk or danger which some of his Noble Friends
had said would attend it. It had been said that
the goad soldiers would leave at the end of ten years,
Why under the existing system, with respect to the good cen-
, duct warrants, only about twenty-five persons per annum had
availed themselves of its provisions; and was it tube supposed
that such great numbers would leave the army on the passing
of this measure ? it was a supposition perfectly unwarranted
by the experience of the past. If he thought that such would
be the result, he should most certainly not have given his sup •
port to the measure. The principle of the Bill was founded
upon the principles of human nature, and unless the British
soldier was differently constituted from the soldiers of other
States, the meaaore would be as eminentll successful in this as
in other countries.
Lord BROUG HAM said that their Lordships had only sat
there since five or six o'clock, but he had been there since ten
o'clock that moaning. He had been sustained there through
that long sitting by the interest that the debate had excited,
although he felt extremely fatigued from the length of time he
had been there. He had no military knowledge or skill, but
he felt bound to express to their Lordships the views
he entertained upon this subject. The measure was
none of the Commander-in-Chiefs suggestion. The
Commander. in-Chief would have been the last man to
have suggested such a measure to the country, and he had not
even sanctioned it by his high authority. In speaking upon this
measure, his Noble Friend had only moderately supported it,
and while, on the part of Government, he spoke in favour of
the measure, he gave his reasons for doing so, every one of
which reasons told all against it. Those reasons were all
meant to guard his own consistency, and they did most amply
guard it; and his warning to the Government to leave the army
alone, seemed to say that he would hive them his assistance
if they wished it, but they had better leave it alone.
The Noble Duke bad addressed the House, not against the
present measure for which he was voting, but merely against
some portion of that measure which had been dropped by the
way, and which might be retrospective in its operations, or
might render the re-enlistment of the soldier, after the 10 or 12
years had expired, no longer a matter of option. He (Lord
Brougham) had never, in any debate in that House, heard
speeches delivered by his Noble Friends round him, and espe-
cially the Noble L )rd who spoke last, in which the arguments
used were so utterly at variance with each other, or where
the different portions of their speeches were so conflicting. Th-, re
seemed to be a doubt as to the result of the measure itself,
and although it was supported, it was supported in so timid a
strain, that it almost looked like condemnation. His Noble
Friend opposite had stated that the object of the measure was
to make the army popular. Was not the present law, as it
related to the army, quite as well calculated to effect that ob-
ject. '['he law permitted enlistment for life, for seven, or for
fourteen years ; at least that was allowed down to the year
1829, when it was suspended by an order of Lord Hill. The
Government had, however, still the power to enforce limited
enlistment, without bringing the measure so fully under
the discussien of the Houses of Parliament. They
could at any time issue an order reversing the order of
Lord Hill, anti there was their object attained at once.
His Noble Friend had said that one of the ways to be used to
popularize, as he called it, the army was to make dismissal from
the ranks a punishment. How did that agree with the rest of
his arguments, for at the end of a period of ten or twelve years
the mars would be dismissed and re-enlist. He thought that
this measure was pregnant with all the seeds, he would not say
of insubordination, but of discontent. It was one not calcu-
lated to improve the condition and efficiency of the army, and
was a superfluous and fruitless trouble. This Bill professed to
do nothing that they could not have done without a Bill at all,
and without the fruitless discussion and trouble which
had beets caused by this measure. The proceeding in that
House would in a short time form the subject of military con-
versations all over the country. In less than twelve hours all
that had been said in that House would he known to every
soldier in St. James's and all over the country. They would
know
that it seemed to be the unanimous feeling of all the
officers who had addressed the House that night, that the sol-
diers had not sufficiently large pensions. Would not such pro-
ceedings be calculated to excite discontent and dissatisfaction
by the attempt to enforce a needlers, useless, and superfluous
measure.broughteHpley
strongly
adutdhat such a
conscientiously m a souprpernheadd it; b been
forts. eardde.
feeling the evils it would create, hefurene should vote against
the theEfaurrlthGeßr
Epryogsraeisds
telft at this
Bill.e Noble ( and Learned
ppoonuLt
htoher
nshuoaird,
ja,e:ictne,
his speech, indulged in some romantic ideas• u
mson which he replied strongly—presuming u
of his hearers. The Noble and ee.aur
gnu exdilt,sootLke
spoken
d should, at
ant
and rate,Le,,r Learned
dv
Lord
dohwand the
th lawe
other a s ite evening
againstl e Noblethe
G •vernment for taking it up in themsnelnvess
in Council, which, by Parliament, they were 17. an, ouster
ae-
thorised to do. The Noble Lord now stated that was n')
necessity for this Act, as the power for enlisting for a
Howl period already existed. lie could state to th

Noble Lord that in time of peace, the Crown had
no power to enlist soldiers at all, except by virtue of i
an act of Parliament. The power, as t now existed, did not
warrant any enlistment for a perion of ten years, and therefore
this Act became necessary. He would not detain their Lord-
ships any further except upon one point, namely, that he had
been represented as stating that the condition* of the British
soldier was one of slavery. He had not stated any such thing,
but so far from it, he had, in order to meet that argument,
gone into a tolerably minute detail of what had been
done of late to ameliorate the condition of the soldier.
With reference to the application of this measure to
the marines, it was certainly proper and just that if Parlia-
ment sanctioned its application to the army that it should be
applied to the marines. It certainly would not be thought
necessary to establish a separate system for the two. He had
already gone sufficiently far into this subject before, and he
should not then detain their Lordships any further.
After a few words in explanation from Lord BROUGHAM,
The House divided. when there appeared :
For the amendment—
Non-contents present
Proxies
94

Against it—
Contents present
Proxies ... ...... ...

64
44
-108

Majority against the amendment... —l4
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
committed.
Their Lordships then adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock

HOUSE. OF COMMONS. April 26.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
SECOND READINGS.

The following Bills were read a second time, and or-
dered to be committed:—

Lancashire, Cheshire, and North Wales Drainage and
Inclosure Company's Incorporation.
Limerick Docks and Barbour.
REPORTS.

The reports on the following Bills were brought up
and agreed to:—
Ayrshire and Galloway Railway (Smithstown to Dal-
mellington).
Colchester, Stour Valley, Sudbury, and Halstead Rail•
way (lease to the Ipswich and Bury St. Edmund's
Railway Company).
Wolverhampton Rates. . _

Hartlepool West ❑arbour and Dock (Dock Extension).

GOVERNMENT PLAN OF EDUCATION.

Several petiCous were presented for and against the
Government plan of education.
WESTMINSTER AND LAMBETII-BRIDGE
BILL.

Captain PLUMRIDGE moved the second reading cf
the Westminster and Lambeth-bridge Bill.
Sir ROBERT INGLIS said that he had a petition
to present against the Bill from his Grace the Arch-
bishop of Canterbury.
ISPEAKERsaid,ovedreading that the second of the
Bill
the Hon. Baronet could not pre-
having 8 1-)E
b
soitthie
Sir H.
INGLIS then moved that the Bill be read a
second time that day six months. He was in hopes
that the Honourable and Gallant Member who had
moved the second rending of the Bill would have
tated the grounds on which he made that motion.
The Bill purported to be a Bill to enable ore solitary
individual to take, in a compulsory manner, a certain
amount of property, and that, he thougtv, was a reason
why the Bill should not he read a second time. As he un
derst )od it, the Bill proposed that the bridge should
be a suspension-bridge. Now he could never give his con-
sent to the erection of such abridge, because such abridge
was perpetually in action, and always liable to accident.
Ha deprecated the erection of a suspension•bridge
in any case, but in the present one particu-
:arly, as the land was low on each side, and
the raising of it would greatly interfere with the pro-
perty of the Archbishop of Canterbury.
Mr. LAW seconded the motion for the reading of the
Bill that day six months.
General EVANS supported the second reading of the
Bill. The Hon. Baronet the Member for Oxford had
stated that the Bill was put forward by a single individual,
Sir Samuel Brown; that might be true, but it was equally
so that it was opposed only by one individual, and that
individual was the Archbishop of Canterbury. He
thought that the arguments that had been used by the
Hon. Baronet for the second reading of the Bill were
strongly calculated to induce the House to send it to a
Committee up stairs. He could assure the House that
there was no wish on the part of the promoters of the
Bill at all to incommode the Archbishop of Canterbury.
Dr. NICIIOLL said he believed that Sir Samuel
Brown, one of the principal promoters of the scheme,
was a partner in a large chain-cable manufactory at
Newbridge, in Glanaorganshire, and his chief object
was, no doubt, to get rid of some of' his chain cables.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, when there
appeared—
For the second reading 26
Against it 4l
Majority against the second reading —l5
N AVIGATION- LAWS.
Sir HOWARD DOUGLAS presented a petition,
signed by six hundred of the merchants and principal
inhabitants of Liverpool, against any alteration in the
navigation-laws.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL presented several petitions
from the county Longford against the ex officio and other
clauses of the Poor-law (Ireland) Bills ; also several
petitions from the same county, praying for a system of
railways for Ireland, by loans or advances of the public
money:
Mr. HUDSON presented a petition from South
Shields against any alteration in the navigation laws.
Lord GEORGE BENTINCK presented petitions from
Kilmarnock, and other places in Scotland, against the
Marriage (Scotland) Bill. Also, petitions from various
places in Ireland, iu favour of a system of railways for

that country.
SCOTCH MARRIAGES BILL AND REGISTRA
TION OF BIRTHS AND DEATHS BILL.

Mr. MACKINNON presented a petition from the in-
habitants of the Isle of Skye, against these Bills.
Mr. FORBES presented several similar petitions from
parishes in Scotland.
LAW OF SETTLEMENT.

Mr. MACKINNON presented a petition from the
guardians of the Richmond Union against the law of
settlement.

EDUCATION.
The HON. GENTLEMAN also presented a petition from
Lancashire in favour of the Government scheme.
MARY YOUNG.
Mr. NV AKLEY presented a petition from Mary
Young, of Finchana, in Norfolk, complaining of the con-
duct of the committing magistrate towards her boy.
The Hon. Member said, that on the 9th of December,

1846, the petitioner's husband sent his son, a boy of
fifteen years of age, on a message to the superintendent
of police. When the bay appeared there the superin.
tendent said, " That's the boy that stole the spoons nine
months ago." The boy was consequently charged be-
fore the magistrate, notwithstanding that the charge
was distinctly repudiated ; and the magistrate, when
the petitioners said that a witness, Small by name,
in court, could prove that the boy was absent five
miles from the place of the robbery at the time
in quo,tion, would not hear Small upon his oath.
The boy was therefore remanded to Swatfham gaol for
nine clays, and during that period both the silversmiths
to whom the spoons had been offered for sale
were confronted with him, when both positively
said the boy was not the same person. The boy was
discharged ; but in consequence of the ill condition of
the cell in which he had been confined for nine days he
had been seized with inflammation in the hip Joint,
which would make him a cripple for life. The peti-
tioner's husband, in consequeoce of his anxiety and the
xposure to which he was subjected, had become ill, and
died. The Hon. Member hoped that the statement of
the case would receive the attention of the Secretary for
the Home Department.
Mr. HODUSON HINDE presented a petition from
with
viary caution
Young, thend the magistrate mentioned in the petition of the Hon.
aitetenin
Member for Finsbury, praying the House to receive
st
ying
the containedee rcorrectness
t inne s
st the
of
the petition
o
asser-
tions made therein.

Sir G. GREY said that with regard to the petition
presented by the Hon. Gentleman, the facts had not as
yet been brought under his notice. When he receive d
an official intimation of the facts be should be better
able to judge what course should be pursued.
The petition was ordered to lie on the table.
iEALTH OF TOWNS.

Sir G. GREY then presented a petition from the
clergymen of Sheffield in favour of the Health of
Towns Bill.
SUPERANNUATION ALLOWANCE OF POOR,
LAW OVERSEERS.

Mr. HODGSON presented a petition from the over-
seers an I administrators of the poor-law, praying the
[louse to adopt some means of giving a proper super-
annuation allowance to persons employed in that cepa.
city. He wished to ask the Right lion. Gentleman the
Secretary for the home Department whether it was the
intention of the, Government to adopt any means for
making these cut erannuatien allowances in this session?
Sir G. GREY said that he was not prepared at that
moment to state the course the Government intended
to pursue.
Lord MORPET.II presented a petition from the West
Riding of Yerkshire against the Factories Bill ; and
also seven petitions from the same place, six against and
one in favour of the Government scheme of education.
REGIS TRATL )N OF MARRIAGES BILL.
Sir ANDREW LElra HAY said he wished to ask
the Learned Lord-Advocate of Scotland, first, what was
his intention with regard to the Registration of Mar-
riages (Scotland) Bill; and, secondly, whether he in-
tended to alter or omit the twelfth clanse, and whether he
proposed any, and what, alteration in the Bill?
The LORD-ADVOCATE said, in answer to the
question of his Honourable and Gallant Friend, he
could state that it was his intention not to in-
sist upon the twelfth clause. The ground upon which
the Bill was intro luced had been much misrepresented,
but he should have another opportunity of explaining
himself upon that subject. With reference to the
various objections made to the Bill, he proposed
to make many great amendments which he should
not have hardly otherwise ventured upon. He
believed that his Hon. Friend would not object to
the course he intended to pursue, namely, that they
should go into Committee pro forma, so as to enable him
to send the Bid down to Scotland in time for the public
meetings which were shortly to be held in different parts
of the country.
Mr. HUME hoped that the alterations which were to
be introdaeed in the would be at the same time
made clesr to the pers. ns interested in it.
Mr. RU fill intended to do so.
After a cow wor .1-0,11 Sir R. 11. INGLIS,
Mr. RUTHERFORD said that time had been given
t tohi
himself
f into
the Cr
right
t
to enable the peep'', of Scotland to expreee the objec-
tions they 1411;.!,iii, e;itol-tit6s ageieet I_, a. ef la ea
Sir G. CLERK lbvuotu
mittee pro forma,
bl de
Tneostervochjdee ot