The Sun.
London, England, 1840-05-09 00:00:00

the United Kingdom, from six Dissenting and three
Catholic establishments of science and art, as well as those
from the University College. He believed that at pre-
sent the medical examiners received 2501. a year, but 100/.
a year would Le an ample allowance.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN also opposed the vote.
Lord SANDON inquired what length of time the
medical examiners were employed in the examination?
Mr. WA 13.13URTON believed two or three months in
every year._

Mr.. GODSON said there appeared to be an expense
of 1,000/. incurred in examining 50 pupils. From the do-
cument in his hand it appeared to him that at present the
fees were much too large. The establishment was only an
infant one, and when it became la, ger and more extensive
the scale might perhaps be moderau• enough, but at pre-
sent they appea,ed to be paying 3,3101. for examining
about 100 pupils.
Mr. WAKL E Y said it was generally believed that the
manner in which the University was conducted was most
objectionable, and it had given rise to very general dissatis-
faction. When the discussion on the subject of the Uni-
versities of Oxford and Cambridge came Mare the House,
these institutions were condemned as being too illiberal
arid restricted, and it was then said, " Let us found a new
establishment, which will be mere in accordance with the
spirit of the times." Why, the whole management of the
University was in the hands of the Minister—was that in
accordance with the liberal times in which they lived ?
( Hear, hear.) He presumed that the large fees charged
were to be taken as a proof of the estimation in which the
new shop was held.—(A laugh ) Tuey were now shout
to vote 6 0001. of the public money for the maintenance
of an institution—he did not like to say it had bt en a
hunibtim—( A laugh)—that might be thought ofilisive—
should-he say it was a fraud ? That would be still more
offensive ; but in poii.t of fact every body believed it was
both the one and the other, and his (Mr. Wakley's)
opinions were very much in accordance with those of the
public.—( Laughter.) It was his determination before
the next Session of Parliament to make the most minute
investigation into the management of the University, and
if his surmises were well-founded he would call upon the
House to repudiate it altogether.
Mr. WARBURTON said the Institution was still in
its infancy, and it could not be expected to be altogether
perfect. He believed that the greater number of the
charges which had been made against it would be found to
be wholly unfounded.

- •
After a few words from Mr. GO ULBURN,
Mr. HUME said the discussion that had taken place
wILs a proof that the House had not sufficient information
before it upon which it ought to vote so large a sum.
There should be annual statements laid before the House
of the proceedings and expenditure of all these public in-
stitutions which were in the habit of receiving grants of
the public money. The salaries and fees appeared to
be exorbitantly high, and, in fact, the whole system was
vicious in principle. He sugg,sted that they should have
a report of the proceedings of the Council before the pre-
sent vote was passed.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was
not prepared for the objections that had been brought for-
ward, and without going the length of agreeing with the
opinions that had been put forth by the Hon. Member for
Finsbury, ho had no objection to postpone the vote for the
present. He did not think, considering, the sums paid to
Revising Barristers and other persons of that class that the
remuneration of the medical officers of the Uni-
versity was at all too high.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
Supposing no individual held more than one office, he did
not think the sum paid to each exorbitant, at the same
time he had no objection to postpone the vote.
Mr. HUME said the Report should include the names,
duties, salaries, and other particulars relative to these
offices.

Mr. GOULBURN thought that would be unnecessary,
and tint by overlaying the subject they would do no good.

Mr. W -AK LE ir said he should riot be satisfied unless
the minutes of the Univerity, which he understood were
in print, were produced, for it was not to be expected these
persons would make a report inculpatory of themselves.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would
not object to produce the names of the examiners, their
duties, salaries, and thu number of their pupils, but he
was not prepared to promise the production of the minutes.
After a few words from Mr. Godson, Mr. Darby, Mr.
Waklcy, and Mr. Warburton, the motion was withdrawn.
On the motion of 1,3001. for the School of Design,
Somerset Ilouse, being put,
Mr. WILLIAMS (Coventry) said lie had made many
inquiries on this subject, and found it was the general
opinion this institution was of no benefit, while he be-
lieved the superiority of the city of Lyons in their similar
manufactures to that of the town he represented, was en-
tirely owing to the school of design in that place. He was
sure that if a few hundreds a year were spent in establish-
ing schools of design in various manufacturing towns in
this country, it would be attended with the most beneficial
results.

Mr. II UNIE had occupied himself much on this sub-
ject during late years, and while he thought the Govern-
ment should maintain a normal school of design, as it were
in London, there should be institutions of ths nature in
the large manufacturing towns of this kingdom. He hoped
the Government would direet their attention to the subject.
Mr. L ABOUC HE RE quite agreed with the Hon.
Gentleman in the 'advantages that would result from the
plant ecommended, and the importance of competing with
the French and other Continental nations in the art of de-
sign. Hs regretted: the subject had not been introduced
earlier. This institution was but recently established, but
some (A the most eminent artists of the day were connected
with it, and though their repeated experiments had not
yet been so successful as could be desired, they neverthe-
less did not despar that it would ultimately answer the
views of its founders. He could assure the House the
Government had not been unmindful cf the importance
of the plan recommended by the Honourable Gentle-
man, or of this particular institution.—( Hear, hear.)
He was informed several plans were in contemplation to
increase its utility, among others, that they hoped to be
able to make a good collection of moulds from which spe-
cimens would be supplied at a cheap we. If a larger sure
of money should be required to render the institution more
useful, he would have no hesitation in coming down to the
House to ask for the augmentation.--(Hear, hear. )
Lord SANDON supported the vote, and hoped that
the Right Hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board
of Trade would be able to render the institution as import-
ant as he proposed to make it.
Mr. MARK PHILLIPS hoped that the manufactur-
ing towns would take the matter into their own hands, by
establishing schools of design to which the Government
might give assistance.
After a few words from Mr, WILLIAMS, the vote was
agreed to.
31,000/. were then voted for the expenses of the Re-
gistration of Voters in England and Wales.
Mr. HUME trusted that this was the last time the
House would be called on to agree to such a vote, and that
the bill brought in two or three nights ago by Lord John
Russell would put an end to the expenses.—( Hear.)
The sum of 11,300/. was next voted to defray the ex-
penses of the office of the Queen's Remembrancer.
On the question that the sum of 93 0001. be granted to
defray certain charges heretofore paid out of the County
rate,
__

Mr. HUME opposed the vote, on the ground that the
expenses of prosecutkins ought to be borne by the counties,
and ought not to be thrown upon the country at large.
He bad opposed the vote for three years, and he would
oppose it as often as it was brought forward. It was
shameful truckling on the part of the Government to the
country gentlemen, to relieve the land of this burthen.
He believed that the country gentlemen would get rid of
every burthen if they could, and before long would throw
the expense of the highways upon the Consolidated Fund.
He would take the sense of the Committee on the vote.
Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL supported the vote.
After a few words from the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, Mr. Pryme, and Mr. Darby, in support of the vote.
Mr. WAKLEY observed that this expense was in-
creasing every year. Ile should not object to that increase
if the expenditure were properly applied ; but ho did not
think that prosecutions would be well conducted until there
was a public prosecutor.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL wished to allude to
the suggestion of :he lion. Member for Finsbury with re-
spect to a public prosecutor. He acknowledged that a
great improvement would be effected in the administration
of justice in the country by the establishment of such an
officer; but at tile same time, es he bad frequently turned
the subject in his mind, be would tell the Hon. Gentleman
why he refrained from props sing anything of the kind to
Pdrliament. His not having done so arose from his ap-
prehension of the great expenditure which be felt would
follow from the c stablishment of the office in question.
They should in that case have a public prosecutor in every
county, in every city and borough of England, and in
every Court of Quarter Sessions. That was one of his
reasons for not making the proposal in question. Another
objection to it was the great amount of patronage which it
would bestow upon the Crown, and which patronage would,
he believed,be attended with great inconvenience and ember-
rr.ssment. He bad been deterred by these reasons from
bringing forward a measure which would otherwise be a
great improvement in the administration of justice in the
country.
After a few word.; from Mr. J. Jorces and Mr. WAKLEY,
The Committee divided, when the numbers were--
For the vote
Against it
Majority
The vote was then agreed to.
On the next vote being put, that of a sum of 7,000/, as
a compensation to the Messrs. Fourdrinicr,
Mr. HUME said he felt the vote too scanty a one.
Mr. MACKINNON concurred in the opinion of the
Hon. Member for Kilkenny. He had himself been a
Member of the Committee which had invested the claims
of the Messrs. Fourdrinicr, and that Committee had been
unanimously of opinion that 20,0001. should be awarded
to those gentlemen for the services they had rendered to
the country. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer
had expressed his intention of granting them the sum of
,fefittnduurnpdriesredtlalotstehecisrmeualmlnsetassneoefsthheop(teA,lern.t Mac-
kj i5l; r°,l).
The CEIANCE.LLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that for his part he felt great hesitation in proposing the
vote at all, as he thought it might tend to encourage indi-
viduals to look for compensation to the public funds, which
he thought woulci be a very serious evil. Considering
that Fulton, for the invention of the spinning machine, re-
ceived 5,0001., the present vote did not appear too little.
Mr. G. KNIGHT was astonished that the Chancellor
of the Exchequer should not think it just to reward those
whose inventions, as in this instance, had added greatly to
the revenue. There had been a breach of good faith
here. The late Chaecellor of the Exchequer had said,
that "if this matter was left to him he would see to it," and
now, after the Messrs. Fourdrinier had expended 40,0001.
on the invention, and it saved 25 per cent. in the manu-
facture of paper, and near 40,000/. a year to the Go-
vernment, they only offered them 7,000/.—( Hear.)
Mr. M. PHILLIPS said, no man could be more op-
posed to undue grants of public money ; but these gentle-
mpaerepnh,ad conferred great benefit on the public, and had
been deprived by the merest technicality of law, by that
i
advantage which they would otherwise have derived from
their
ingenuity and skill. They had saved 103. a ream in
which, in the quantity used by the House alone, for