The Sun.
London, England, 1847-12-14 00:00:00

THE BLOCKADE OF LA PLATE.

Mr. T. BARING inquired whether the Noble Lord
the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs was
prepared to state the present position of the negotia-
tions with the Government of France on the subject
of the French blockade of the River Plate, and
whether there was any prospect of a speedy removal
of the blockade ?

Lord PALMERSTON said that the Government
had been in communication with the Government of
France on the subject; and recently he had been
engaged with the Duke de Broglie in preparing in-
structions to be sent out to the British and French
representatives on the subject ; and he had no doubt
that upon the arrival of those instructions a speedy
termination would be put to the long continued
hostilities.

Mr. DISRAELI wished to know who was her
Majesty's representative at the River Plate ?

Lord PALMERSTON was understood to say that
Captain Gore would act as such. At present there
was no official representative there.

SWITZERLAND.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL wished to ask the Secretary
of State for Foreign Affairs whether he had received
official information of the decrees of the Provisional
Governments of the cantons of Friburg and Lu-
cerne, banishing for ever the Jesuits, the Liguorians,
the Brothers of the Christian Doctrine, the Ursiline
Nuns, the Sisters of Providence, and other denomina-
tions of religious, male and female, under pretence of
their being affiliated to the Jesuits ; also, confiscating
their entire property, and annulling any and every
provision which they might have made of it during
nearly two months previous to the surrender of Friburg
and Lucerne. Also, whether the Noble Lord had
received official information of the enormous demands
made upon the cantons of the Sonderbund for the
expenses of the war, one million of francs being
demanded by the 20th instant, and two millions more
within a brief space afterwards, besides other
charges and exactions ; and whether, considering
these acts of a tyrannous majority in Switzerland,
the insults and outrages to the clergy and the religion
of the minority, the extreme persecution and plun-
dering of individuals among that minority, whose only
crime was to discharge faithfully the duties imposed
upon them by their fellow-citizens, -an urgent case
has not arisen for the intervention of the Powers who
guaranteed in 1815 the cantonal independence of
Switzerland.
Lord PALMERSTON said that the Government
had received official information from Friburg of the
intention to banish the Jesuits, and certain other
religious orders supposed to be connected with them.
The Government had not received any official account
of any similar intention on the part of Lucerne, or
the other states. With respect to the amount of the
levies for the expense of the war, the Government
had also not received any official information. With
respect to the latter part of the question, there did
not appear to her Majesty's Government, in the pre-
sent state of things, any grounds upon which the
powers that were parties to the treaty would be jus.
tified in interfering in the matter.
RETIRING ALLOWANCES (ARMY).
Lord A. LENNOX wished to ask the Secretary
at War whether it was his intention to extend the
benefit of the retiring allowance of ten-twelfths of
full pay to regimental surgeons and paymasters,
which has been granted by the royal warrant of May,
1846, to veterinary surgeons and quartermasters.
Mr. FOX MAULE stated the subject was under
the consideration of her Majesty's Government.
SWITZERLAND.
Dr. BOWRING wished to know whether the Go-
vernment had received any dispatches from Berne,
containing any account of the proceedings of the
Diet which could justify the Hon. Member for Lime-
rick (Mr. J. O'Connell)
in speaking in such violent
terms of their conduct ?
Lord PALMERSTON said that the dispatches
received from Berne did not contain the details of
any of those acts of violence whichl had appeared
in some accounts of the transactions referred to.
INDIA.
Viscount JOCELYN moved for a return of
Europeans in the military or. civil employment of
any of the native states of India, with the amount of
salary paid to each individual.—Agreed to.
POOR-LAW (IRELAND.)
Mr. P. SCROPE wished to know whether any
returns relative to the working of the poor-law
passed in the last session would be placed upon the
table of the House before its rising ?
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that the returns
were in a forward state, and he had no doubt that
they would be ready to be placed in the hands of
Hon. Members before the rising of Parliament.
INFLUX OF IRISH. PAUPERS.
Mr, P. SCOPE wished to know whether any steps
had been taken to procure accurate returns of the
number of Irish paupers that might land in any of
I the ports of England and Scotland.
Sir G. GREY did not know that any steps would
be taken for that purpose by the local authorities, nor
whether it would be necessary for the Government to
order such accounts to be taken.
JEWISH DISABILITIES.

Mr. GLADSTONE wished to know whether it
wa4 the intention of the Noble Lord at the head of
the Government to bring forward his measure with
respect to the Jewish disabilities on Thursday next ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said that it was his intention
to bring forward that measure upon Thursday.
NEW ZEALAND.

Mr. GLADSTONE wished to know whether it
was the intention of Government to bring forward this
evening the Bill for the partial suspension of the
existing acts relating to New Zealand, as, in conse-
quence of a protest of the inhabitants of that island,
recently published, there was no doubt that the mea-
sure to be introduced would call for very serious con-
sideration.

Mr. LLBOUCHERE said that it was the inten-
tion of the Government to introduce that measure
after the orders of the day had been disposed of.
TURNPIKE TRUSTS.
Sir W. JOLLIFFE wished to know whether it
was the intention of the Government to bring in any
measure for regulating the affairs of turnpike trusts.
Sir G. GREY said that the subject was at present
under the consideration of her Majesty's Government.
THE CHANNEL ISLANDS.
An HON. MEMBER asked whether Government had
received the report of the Commissioners appointed to
inquire into the state of the law relating to the
Channel Islands and if so, whether they were pre-
pared to lay it upon the table of the House ?
Sir GEORGE GREY said it was received some
months back, and laid upon the table of the House
at the close of the last Parliament.
Dr. BOWRING hoped Government, after the
recess, would be prepared to tell him whether they
had any objection to extend the labours of the Com-
mission to the Isle of Man ?
COMMERCIAL DISTRESS.
Lord G. BENTINCK wished to know at what
period of the evening the Right Hon. the Chancellor
of the Exchequer intended to nominate the Commit-
tee on Commercial Distress ? He ventured to hope
it would not be at an unseasonable hour.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
could not say at what hour he would bring it for-
ward ; but immediately after the Bill for the Sup-
pression of Crime and Outrage had been disposed of
he should ask the House to take his motion out of its
order.
An.HoN. MEMBER wished to know whether the
lion. Member for Montrose intended to persevere
with his amendments ?
Mr. HUME replied in the affirmative, and declared
his opinion that the Committee ought not to be
appointed till after the recess.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER

appealed to the Hon. Member whether it was fair to
persist in moving his resolution. The House had
come to the determination that the Committee should
be appointed, and the appointment was, therefore, not
now an open question. The only question that
remained was, what Members should compose that
Committee, and it was not fair to interpose any motion
or amendment upon such a question. Besides, each of
the resolutions of the Hon. Member would give rise
to a week's debate.—(Hear and laughter.)
THE BANK OF SCOTLAND.

Mr. URQUHART rose to support a statement
which he had made the other night relative to a
speech which the Right Hon. Baronet the Member
for Tamworth delivered in 1844, while supporting
his Currency Bill. The Hon. Gentleman read se-
veral extracts from the Times of the period, to show
that the Right Hon. Baronet had expressly stated that
the Bill was not to apply either to Ireland or Scotland.
The Right Hon. Baronet had no ground for saying
that he had stated that which was destitute of founda-
tion. One part of the Right Hon. Baronet's speech
contradicted the other, and how could he judge cor-
rectly from aggregate statements thus contradictory ?
He left the matter in the hands of the House.

Sir ROBERT PEEL said there was no question
as to the intention of the Government with respect to
Scotch banks, because I had to move resolutions—
(Hear, hear)—which were necessary before I could
have introduced the Bill. Eight or nine resolutions were
moved by which the existing banks of Scotland were
not to be interfered with, a. 4 there was a positive
prohibition against the establishment of any new
banks of issue in that portion of the United King-
dom. Those resolutions were printed, and I was in
constant communication with the bankers of Scot-
land on the subject. I believe those bankers
distinctly understood that their banking privileges
would not be interfered with by legislation in the
course of 1844 ; but it was distinctly understood that
no new banks of issue would be constituted after;the
passing of the Acts.—(Hear, hear.) There could
not be the slightest doubt about the intentions of the
Legislature.
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion for the third reading of this Bill,
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL rose to offer a few
remarks, but the earlier portion of his brief ad-
dress was indistinctly heard in the gallery,
owing to the noise that prevailed from Hon.
Members leaving the House, and from the conversa-
tion of those that remained. He earnestly called
the attention of those who were too apt to vituperate
the Roman Catholic priesthood of Ireland to
listen to a letter which had recently been
written by the Rev. Mr. M'Dermott, the parish
priest of Strokestown, who distinctly and solemnly
averred that not only was Colonel Mahon not de-
nounced from his chapel, but that he had not even
mentioned his name within its walls. He
had also received a letter from the Rev.
John Hughes, stating that the language which had
been imputed to him had not been used by him, but
by a Conservative newspaper, which wished to
cast blame upon those of his sacred pro-
fession. The Honourable Gentleman, after reca-
pitulating what he stated on the introduction of
the Bill, and justifying his subsequent charge of
opinion with respect to it, proceeded to say that the
Government having now obtained their measure
.of coercion by overwhelming majorities, all he
had to ask them was this—having secured
coercion, to turn their serious attention to improve
the deplorable condition of the people. The
state of Ireland would not Brook delay. Delay
would be disastrous, because it would be fatal. He
warned them not to rely upon the poor-law, and as-
sured them, if they did so, that they would lean upon
a broken reed. Let them approach the evils of
Ireland in a sincere and peaceful spirit ; and
although the late Mr. O'Connell possessed an
influence over the people never equalled—they
might by acting in a conciliatory spirit ob-
tain a share of the affections of the people
almost equal to that possessed by the deceased
gentleman to whom he had referred. A good
beginning was half the battle. If they acted in the
spirit he had indicated, they would solve the problem
of Ireland's government—that government being, in
his opinion, one of a peaceable and conciliatory
character. He concluded by moving that the Bill
be read a third time this day six months. He im-
plored the Government during the recess to devise
remedial measures, and to bring them forward imme-
diately after the recess.

Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN seconded the motion.
He said he was sensible that the House was
thoroughly wearied of these repeated discussions—
(Hear, hear)—and he should therefore confine what
he had to say in as brief a space as possible.
There was no man in the House who felt a greater
horror of the outrages committed in Ireland, but he
trusted that when the bad government which had
produced that state of things should cease, that then
those outrages would cease also. With respect to the
measure before the House, he did not see through-
out the whole of it one single proposition calcu-
lated to produce the effect sought to be obtained by
this measure. He should say that the safer and
more effectual mode of suppressing those outrages
would be by the establishment of a sufficient
moral force to overawe the people.—(Hear, hear.)
The present Government had obtained office by op.
posing a coercion Bill for Ireland ; and with what
grace could they now come forward and ask for such
a measure ? The relief which they had afforded to
the people of Ireland was lamentably insufficient, for,
although large sums had been expended for food,
hundreds of thousands of the people had died, who
might have been saved if the Government had adopted
more judicious measures. As to the poor-law he had
predicted its fate ; he had said that the machinery of
it would not work well, and that prediction had been
verified. He always had declared it would be ineffec-
tive, and it was now proved to be so. It was true that one
million and a half of money had been expended as an
indemnity to landlords, but the grant was of no prac-
tical service in mitigating the general distress. Out
of that amount not more than 31,0001. had been ap-
plied to relieve the distress of the country. The land-
lords of Ireland had been abused last session, and all
the evils of the country attributed to them, but now
the blame was thrown on the priesthood, and a class
of men had been grossly maligned without whose
efforts Ireland would have been in a state of positive
insurrection. The Hon. Gentleman proceeded at
some length to address the House, but the noise was
so great that he was quite inaudible in the gallery.
Mr. ROBINSON- attempted to address the House,
but was met with loud and reiterated cries of
" Divide, divide," and was not distinctly heard in the
gallery.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL supported the third
reading of the Bill. This was a different Bill to that
of 1846 ; if it had been at all like it he would not
have given it his support, but he thought this a very
moderate Bill, and it interfered as little as possible
with the ordinary law. The power of calling in arms
was certainly unconstitutional, but it was a power
which had been exercised in England, and he re-
joiced to see the Government legislate for Ireland as
had been done for this country.—(Hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT said he was compelled to speak on
this question. He had presented a petition from
Manchester, signed by twenty thousand persons,
against this Bill ; he must, therefore, state why he
supported it. Had not the Government thought it
absolutely necessary he was certain it would not
have been proposed. The case for the Bill was com-
plete ; the ordinary law was utterly powerless. In
England the people generally supported the law ; but
in the disturbed districts of Ireland the public senti-
ment was so utterly depraved and vitiated that the
law was deprived of its force.—(Cries of " No, no.")
He maintained that it was so. Many of the murders
that had been committed were not regarded as assas-
sinations, but rather as executions. In the case of
Mr. Lloyd, the murder had been committed most de-
liberately. Extraordinary powers were clearly re-
quired. Whether the present Bill would be
effective he could not say. He feared the Go-
vernment had not shown the necessary courage
for dealing with the condition of Ireland.
The recent poor-law was certainly a most advan-
tageous measure ; and the Noble Lord at the head of
the Government had power to pass any measure that
he might propose through that House. He blamed
the Irish Repeal Members for not having themselves
brought forward the remedial measures which they
thought desirable. He had never yet known those
Members bring forward and consistently support any
measures, or, doubtless, they might have carried
them.—(Hear.) He would not imitate their exam-
ple, but suggest some remedy. He ascribed all the
evils of Ireland to idleness ; if it could be ascertained,
he believed it would be found the people did not work
more than two days a week. Hence Ireland starved,
and consequently rebelled.—(Hear.) This could only
be prevented by setting their industry in motion, for
their idleness was not their own fault ; they were able
and willing to work, and, when at work, were as ready
as Englishmen to keep the peace.—(Hear.) The
means of employment were extremely small in Ire-
land; there were few large towns or manufactories;
and in the towns of the south and west, groups of 20
or 30 were to be constantly seen standing idle. This
gave rise to annual emigration, by which large num-
bers of ,the peasantry were drafted off to other coun-
tries, and thus the means for producing wealth were
abridged. He doubted whether tenant-right would
be a beneficial measure. The House would never
consent to such a measure as the Hon. and Learned
Member for the county of Limerick wanted. What
was most needed was a measure empowering the sale
of encumbered estates. Why was it not ready ?
Lord J. RUSSELL—It has been ready several
weeks.
Mr. BRIGHT wished to know, then, why it had
not been brought forward ? Government ought not
to wait till they were urged to introduce certain mea-
sures. In his opinion much evil had resulted from
the conduct of the landowners. The encumbrances

on the estates were wholly unparalleled in this coun-
try. In the province of Connaught, he understood,
not five per cent. of the land was under settlement,
and not one per cent. was free from mortgage. Such
being the case, it was idle for the House to go further
in pursuit of the evils of Ireland ; and the longer a
remedy was delayed the greater the criminality of
the Legislature. It was impossible for the Govern-
ment to benefit Ireland by lending landlords money
at 3i per cent. out of the taxation paid by the inha-
bitants of this country, who were borrowing money
at eight per cent. Let a measure be passed for sim-
plifying the titles to estates in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.)
Let Government also diminish the stamps and other
expenses which hindered the transfer of estates ; and
let the system of entail be for ever put an end to.—
(Hear, hear.) This would be done in England at
some time; in Ireland it was absolutely necessary
now. The absurd system of entail and primogeniture
sacrificed the living to the whims of the dead; if
the system were applied to personal as well as landed
property, the country would be thrown into in-
extricable confusion. Some might say that the
system was necessary to maintain the existing aristo-
cratic arrangements. But rather let such arrange-
ments perish for ever, than that a whole country
should be in the state in which Ireland was now
found. Did the aristocracy rear up their sons with
proper habits of industry and just notions of their
property, the system of entail would become unneces-
sary. Whatever Government did fur Ireland, it
would be wholly unavailing, unless it rested on the
foundation of doing away the fetters of the land.
Some Hon. Members might think they had an inte-
rest in keeping up the system ; but it was no such
thing. He lived in a county (Lancashire) which had
been overrun with the pauperism and pestilence of
Ireland, and he protested against the continuance of
arrangements by which such things were occasioned.
The present Parliament was composed very largely
of men of business ; the present Government was
essentially one of the middle class ; and if they would
grapple manfully with the system of the land in Ire-
land, they would be supported by the House, and
would lay the foundation of Irish prosperity.—(Hear,
hear.) He should support this measure because he
believed the present law was powerless, regretting
that Government had not sooner brought forward
remedial measures, and believing that if this was not
done soon it would be impossible for any Government
long to stand.—(Cries of " Divide.")

Mr. HUAIE Wished to ask the Noble Lord at the
head of the Government when the Bill for regulating
the relation of landlord and tenant would be laid before
the House ?

Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to say that
last session the Landlord and Tenant Bill had passed
the other House, and that it would be introduced
again after receiving certain amendments.

-Sir B. HALL rose amidst loud cries of " Divide."
He read some extracts from the Freeman's Journal, to
show that the " Committee of national distress and
national safety" had given in their adhesion to the
Bill when it was first introduced. With regard to
the measure before the House, he thought it had been
shown, during the progress of the debate, that there
was an absolute necessity for it.—(Cries of "Divide.")
As he saw that the House was anxious to go to a di-
vision, he would content himself by making a state-
ment which he had received from Mr. Roe, the bro-
ther of the gentleman who had been murdered. The
Hon. Baronet then stated that the allegations which
had been made by Mr. Loughnane, in the letter re-
ferred to by the Hon. and Learned Member for
Limerick, were contradicted in all the Irish papers
three days afterwards. That contradiction was, he
believed, known to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman.
But who was this Loughnane ? He was a person
who had been employed on the public works, and was
known, as what in Ireland was called, a " gutter
agent." Did the Hon. and Learned Gentleman know
that a very near relative of this individual was now in
prison on a charge of murder ?

The House the❑ divided, when there appeared—
For the third reading ...... 173
Against it
Majority..... —159

On the motion 'of Sir G. GREY, some verbal
amendments were agreed to. The Bill then passed.

RAILWAY LABOURERS.

On the motion that the order of the day for the
bringing up of the report on the Railways Bill be
read,

Mr. A. STAFFORD said' he rose for the pur-
pose of bringing under the notice of the House the
condition of the labourers employed in the construc-
tion of those railways whose claims had been most
shamefully and dangerously neglected during the
whole course of their legislation on the subject of
railways. They were now about to dismiss great
numbers of them at an inclement period of the year
without the least consideration, and but for his voice
not a single word would probably be heard on their
behalf. Those who came after them might well ask,
when they beheld the groat and magnificent works
which had been constructed in this country by the
present generation, how they had acted in respect to
the temporal and eternal welfare of the labourers—
whether their medical care had been attended to—
whether their residences and their relieious instruc-
tion had been looked after—and whether they had
towards them borne out the character which they
assumed to themselves, of being a philanthropic
Legislature and a Christian State ? Amongst the
numerous Acts which had been passed on the
subject of railways, only one was to be found, the
Ist and 2d of Victoria, having especial reference to
the labourers, and that was one of repression. He
begged the House to remember that the present was
not the case of those who were old and decrepid, sick
and infirm, but of those who were strong and power-
ful, and who would be able very soon to avenge on
society the evils they had received at its hands. In
order to show what was the condition of railway la-
bourers, the Hon. Gentleman read extracts from the
evidence of the Rev. J. R. Thompson, the Rev. J.
Mason, Mr. Rawlinson, Mr. Pomfret, and Mr. Chad-
wick, which had been given before the Committee,
appointed at the instance of the Hon. Member for
Kilmarnock, in July, 1846. This evidence went to
show that the habitations of the labourers were of a
most wretched description ; that in several instances
men, women, and children, slept in the same room •,
that gross immorality was the result ; that the high
wages received were rather a curse than a benefit;
and that fever and small-pox were allowed to make
their ravages unchecked. Mr. Chadwick stated
that the truck system was most injurious to the
labourers, and he knew of one instance where the
contractors for a piece of work would have lost
by the work itself; but who made 7,0001. profit
by the truck of beer and inferior provisions.
They lost twenty and thirty, and sometimes
as high as 50 per cent. by the system, at the same
time that they were served with articles of an inferior
description. There was no regular system of
spiritual instruction, said the Rev. Mr. Thompson,
and Mr. Chadwick mentioned the case of a man,
who, having received an injury of the spine from
which he could not recover, requested to have the
scriptures read to him, but was suffered to expire
without receiving the least attention of the nature
he so earnestly besought. They had to deal with
nearly 400,000 persons, and were they to be left in
such a state? They had not heretofore been treated
as the members of a civilised community. They had
been suffered to go from work to work, receiving
high wages, which they squandered in gratifying the
wants which evil habits engendered, and in a reckless
course of improvident extravagance, insomuch that
their average age did not exceed that of forty. He
could not, therefore, suffer the further progress of
this measure, without raising the voice of notice
against the past, and the voice of warning in
reference to the future. The Honourable Member
concluded by giving notice, that, after the recess,
he should bring the question forward in a substantive
shape.
a undoubtedly an
sMember ha
Sir G. GREY said the subjectd
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important one, but as the Hon.given
should sduebfesrtanhtiis'veobpsreor.
position -
noticeofonhitshientsennbloene Johseu
vations on it. He would
donhlayd,npoepa
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thought the Hon. Member
the power of Parliament withnds of directors
co
Very
much .
must be left in the ha
panies, of contractors, and of the gentry resident in
the districts through which the line passed.
Lord G. BENTINCK could not quite let his Hon.
Friend's charge against the railways pass without
observation. He really did not think the devil was
quite so black as his Hon. Friend had painted him.
It appeared by the report which had been quoted that
these very labourers were receiving 225. 6d. per week
wages, and he (Lord George) had heard that the
companies were at this very time contributing
450,0001. a year to the poor-rate, or one-fifteenth of
the whole assessment of the country.
Mr. AGLIONBY believed that in many instances
railway companies hal provided admirably well for
their labourers.

Sir VERNEY expressed his gratification at
there being a probability of legislating on this most
important and interesting question.
The report was then brought up, when
Mr. STRUTT said he would state what were the
amendments he proposed to make in this Bill. The
first related to the compensation to landowners. It
was proposed to enlarge the exceptions under the sth
clause, so as to include all cases in which companies
had applied to Parliament to make their line, so that
no parties concerned would be in any way prejudiced
by the passing of the Act, but would have their re-
medy upon their contracts, either at law or in equity,
as if the Act had never passed. Another amendment
related to services of notices upon the landowners,
which must be posted on the church-doors of parishes
through which the lines passed, as well as given
through the medium of local or other papers. There
were some other amendments of minor importance.
The amendments having been read,

Mr. HENLEY, who had suggested these amend-
ments, expressed himself perfectly satisfied.
Mr. AGLIONBY, on the other hand, thought
the alterations would leave the Bill an exceedingly
clumsy piece of legislation.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
the objections raised by his Hon and Learned Friend
were met by the provisions of the Bill.
The clauses were then read a second time, and
ordered to be added to the Bill, and the Bill was
ordered to be read a third time to-morrow (this day).

SUPPLY.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the
EXCHEQUER, the Committee of Supply was
postponed until Friday next.
PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the
EXCHEQUER, the Public Works (Ireland) Bill
went through Committee.
Mr. F. FRENCH (on behalf of Mr. J. H. Ha'
milton), moved the addition to the Bill of the fol-
lowing clause :—" And be it enacted, that the word
treasurer' shall, as to the county of Dublin, meanand include the finance committee,' and the word
assizes' shall, as to the said county of Dublin, mew
and include the presenting term,' and the words
county surveyor' shall, as to the said county of
Dublin, mean and include the ' district surveyor;
and that the provisions of an Act, passed in the
seventh and eighth year of her Majesty's reign, in"
tituled An Act to consolidate and amend the laws for
the regulation of grand jurk presentments' in the
said county, and any Act for amending the same,
shall, with reference to the raising, applotting, levy-
ing, and recovering of grand jury cess, so far as the
same is applicable, apply as to the said county. Of
Dublin, to sums of money to be presented and raised
under this Act."

The motion was agreed to, and the clause was
added to the Bill.
Sir R. FERGUSON moved the insertion of the
following clause :—" Whereas, under an Act passed
in the first year of the reign of her present Majesty,
intituled An Act to provide more effectual meani
to make treasurers of counties and counties of cities in
Ireland account for public moneys, and to secure the
same,' it was enacted that every treasurer then in office,
and no other, shall have and receive the interest due on
Exchequer bills purchased from any balance stand"
ing to the credit of such treasurer's account, so that
such interest does not exceed one-half of the salary
appertaining to his office ; and whereas it is just,
that such treasurer and the bank, which the grand jury
of any county shall have appointed for recovering the
public moneys of such county, should be allowed
interest on sums paid and advanced under this Act;
be it therefore enacted, that the officer whom the
Lord-Lieutenan t,or other chief governor in Ireland, ha`
authorised, or may hereafter authorise, tc, audit and
declare the accounts of the treasurers of counties 111
Ireland, may, and he is hereby required, on being
applied to by or on behalf' of any treasurer entitled
to receive interest under the said Act, or of any bank
having made any advance above the balance at the
credit of such county, to ascertain the amount of
interest at the rate of 51. per cent., which would be
due to such treasurer or bank on the amount so frau'
time to time unpaid, from the time or times at winch
such money shall have been paid by the treasurers of
such county until the same shall have been dis-
charged, or until the first day of the assizes not
succeeding such application, and to certify the same
to the secretary of the grand jury; and it shall b.e.
lawful for any grand jury to present to the said
treasurer or bank such interest so certified to be due,
which interest shall be paid to such treasurer or bank.
out of any balance in hand, and shall be raised and
levied off the barony or half barony liable to pal
such sums."
The clause was agreed to, and added to the 13int
which was reported with amendments, and the report
ordered to be received to-morrow (this day).

NEW ZEALAND.
Mr. LABOUCHERE rose to ask, pursuant to big
notice, the permission of the House to introduce a
Bill to suspend some of the most important provisions
of an Act of Parliament passed at the close of the session
last year, to make provision for the Government of the
tention to this important colony would rem
colony of New Zealand. Those who had paid sh that
in 1836 it had been, with the general concurrence of
all parties, thought exceedingly desirable to introduce
a constitutional form of government into that colony.
There had been petitions from the inhabitants of Nevi
Zealand presented to that effect, and the subject had
been urged upon the Government by the New Zealand
Company ; and he, also, thought that in the discussions
ember_
which had taken place in this and in the other House
of Parliament, all the leading statesmen of this coon"
try had expressed a desire that a beginning should be
made to introduce a constitutional and representative
government into that colony. Such was the state of
things when her Majesty's present advisers came into
office ; and his Noble Friend, who now held the seals of
the Colonial Department, at once applied himself to this
important subject. He believed that his Noble Friend
fund in his office a record of the determination of
the preceding Government to introduce some mea-
sure of that description, and, accordingly, at the
latter end of the year 1846 a Bill was passed almost
unanimously by both Houses, by which her Majesty
was empowered to grant a charter, and to issue in-
structions which were to regulate the future govern-
ment of New Zealand. The main provisions of that
Act, and of the letters patent issued under it, were to
the following effect :—The colony was to be divided
into two provinces—the one to be called New Ulster,
the other New Munster; municipal districts were
constituted, with town-councils in all those parts
where any considerable number of English colonists
had assembled. These were made the nucleus of
system of provincial government, and were to elect
vinces. There was also to be a general assembly representatives in the legislature of each of the pro-
both provinces, the members of which were tojibcet
elected by the two provincial assemblies. This re
was to take effect as soon as the letters patent were
Such
sere
proclaimed by the governor of the colony.
the instructions which had been sent out, and be TN-
also mention that with regard to the very ".
cult part of the subject—namely, the condition of
the aboriginal inhabitants of the colony, it for
was pro"
posed to be treated and settled in the following
manner : it was suggested that the municipal dis;
tricts should only comprise those parts in which there
were settled a considerable number of white i°l's4-
bitants, and that those great tracts of country.
pied by the aborigines should not be brought iline;
diately within the scope of those institutions. It vl, 11i,
thought that the aborigines were not yet ripe
institutions of that kind, while, on the other banal
the difficulty of subjecting them to the authority ati°,
control of the white population was foreseen. It had
been endeavoured to provide for that difficulty,
by
securing to the aborigines the enjoyment of their on
not
laws and customs in those parts of the colony
included in the municipal districts, and by preventing
occa-
the representative assembly from interfering with
their rights, laws, and customs. Such, then, was the
outline of the scheme sent out to the Governor of New
Zealand. The reasons which induced her Majesty's
Government to propose now to suspend the operation
of this constitution were contained in the dispatches
which had been received from Governor Grey after
the best consideration he had been able to give to
the plan of the Government. The opinion of
Governor Grey ought to have the greatest weight
with the House and the Government. Any person
who had perused those dispatches would acknowledge
that Governor Grey had given valid reasons for net
promulgating the new constitution. His main obje"
tion rested on the intelligence of the aboriginal poPr
lation, and because it was left to the white KO";
who were the minority, to make laws and to i-wP° 1
duties which would be mainly paid by the aborigirt
inhabitants of the island. From this he stated
~t";:
dissatisfaction would be created, and tumult and -
surrection would be the consequence if the white in-
habitants had conferred upon them the power of tall
the great body of the population. His Noble Frien
at the head of the Colonial-office, on receiving these
dispatches had not hesitated as to the course which
he felt it his duty to recommend, and had joined in
thinking that the peace of the colony ought not to be
risked by prematurely, and without due deliberation,
forcing the new constitution upon the inhabitants'
Lord Grey thought it his duty to recommend to hi 6
colleagues at once to suspend the operation of the law•
por-
When he said suspend the Act, he meant only a
tion of it, for that part of it which provided for the,
framing of municipal institutions for the purposes oto
local government it was thought might be safelyree,
tamed. It was proposed, therefore, to leave untoucl?
that part of the Bill which related to municipal in-
stitutions with only an alteration of the qualification'
The qualification for a voter in the municipal districe
was, the possession of a house and the capabilityuna
reading and writing in English. But it was fo
ry.
that although most of the aborigines could ready old_
write, it was in their own language, and there
also foreign settlers, German and French, who coul.a,
not read or write in English. It was pro
therefore, to modify the qualification, and to won!!
poor
the governor to give certificates to those who 3
sessed the requisite tenements, whether foreigners
re
aborigines. The principal provisions of this Bill vvers
firstly, to suspend so much of the former Act, lette
patent, and instructions relating to the legislative a.y;
seinblies for five years, and to re-enact the legislati.,
council of 1840, giving power to the governor to ac!°
to their number. These legislative councils werf.t!
be in each of the two rovinces, either by.nrnin.atsZ,
in
nrblto
or election. The parts elating to the municipal
tutions to be retained, with power to the
enlarge the franchise by certificate. This rn
S,°-
sure gave a very large discretion to the 50
vernor, but he believed that, under the 'l.__
cumstances, it was the wisest and safest crionror
to adopt a simple scheme, leaving to the gover
council a large discretion. A complete nar
would be found in the papers before.eLenrvj
House of the circumstances which led to this ci
everno

urination and the reasons- which induced Governor
Grey Earl
not to promulgate the charter, as well as those
of arl Grey in proposing this course. It was in-
tendedto promulgate the charter in New Ulster,
but the Government thought it better to suspend al-
together for the present the introduction of these in-
stitutions
rather than to carry them out in part of the
country. The lion. Gentleman concluded by eulo-
tsing the wise government of Governor Grey, which
ad caused great improvement in the colony, and ex-
Pressed his hope that New Zealand would become a
valitable addition to the possessions of this country.
Mr. GLADSTONE agreed, almost without excep•
f,,no, to everything that bad fallen from the Right
'cum Gentleman. With regard to what had been
laid of Governor Grey, he would only re-echo the
expressions of the Right Hon. Gentleman; and he
adopted the language of the Right Hon. Gentleman
With regard to the natives ; and he rejoiced the more
et what had been said by the Right Hon. Gentleman,
because there had not always been a disposition in
that House to recognise the qualities of the New
Zealanders. If that House could show towards them
that paternal care and tenderness which it was their
duty to show towards them, he could not but think,
even after all that had happened, from the intelligence
Which had been lately received, that there was every
hope that they would yet witness a satisfactory ter-
letination to the enlightened labours which had been
bestowed on New Zealand. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman said that the late Government intended to give
free constitution to New Zealand. It was true that
they did so intend ; but there was a difference of
opinion between the late and the present Government
as to the speediest mode of effecting it. It was their
opinion that any step which should be taken to bind
the hands of Governor Grey would be a measure not
only ill advised, but would lead to a loss of the time
it was intended to save. He (Mr. Gladstone) thought
it would have been better if Earl Grey had deferred
More to the opinion of Governor Grey, and not sent
out instructions which were not suited to the circum-
stances of the colony. With regard to the Bill in-
troduced by the Right Hon. Gentleman, he (Mr.
Gladstone) thought that a case had been made out
for it. The reasons which induced it were of a pe-
culiar nature, and he thought the House should re-
frain from a detailed discussion upon it till the mea-
sure had been some time in their hands, and had
been well considered. As he (Mr. Gladstone) under-
Stood it, it put the whole power of establishing the
representative government in the hands of the go-
vernor. These were extraordinary powers; but he
would grant that there never was a man into whose
bands they could be better entrusted, and there
sever was a case of greater difficulty of governing
at a distance, and which more required local
knowledge. Everything which would allow local
knowledge to prevail over distant and speculative
plans ought to be done. He wished to say a word
with regard to a dispatch of Earl Grey, relating to the
disposal of public lands in New Zealand. In the be-
ginning of the session he asked if the Government
would lay on the table the dispatch of Earl Grey in
December, 1846, especially that part of it which re-
lated to the disposal of lands. He found in the papers
which had been delivered that morning an acknow-
ledgment by Governor Grey of the receipt of that
dispatch, but no reference to that portion of it relating
to the disposal of land. He concluded that, if it had
arrived, it would soon be laid on the table, and, if not,
it would not be long before it did. He (Mr. Glad-
stone) thought that portion of the dispatch was of
great importance, and he read with great misgivings
*with respect to the mode of applying the doctrines
laid down in it. The dispatch of Earl Grey, which
closed the papers on the table, referred to the protest
of the Bishop of New Zealand, in which he assumed
that the dispatch of the Noble Lord in relation to the
disposal was at variance with the treaty of Waitangai,
and he protested against it. A protest of this descrip-
tion, in its first aspect, seemed to be a gratuitous and
wanton interference of a spiritual person in civil affairs.
ut on examination it would prove not to be so,
and the character of the Bishop of New Zealand
was such, that he was not so disposed to interfere,
but was more inclined to attend solely to his spiritual
functions, and to shrink from political affairs ; that in
thia instance the clergy were chosen as the instru-
hsents by which the treaty of W'aitangai was carried
o at. It was only by their means that the governor
Could hold real and extensive intercourse with the
aborigines, and the governor did commit the conduct
of the treaty to them. It therefore became the duty
of the bishop, as their head, to see that the ,public
faith conveyed through them was strictly kept. In
his dispatch, Earl Grey expressed no doubt of the
sincerity of the bishop, but he also expressed his fear
that the language of his protest was such as ought
not to have been addressed to a people so lately
emerged ftom barbarism. This was evidently not a
protest made public in the colony, but addressed by
the bishop to the governor, as a person for whom he
had every respect, and whose authority he was most
anxious to support. That being so, the bishop was
not open to the charge, made by Lord Grey, of ad•
dressing exciting language to a people easily excited.
He hoped the Hon, Gentleman opposite would state
\ whether this protest had not been made in the way he
had stated. Into the merits of the question he would
now decline to enter, After the recess he hoped
a clay would be fixed for giving to the measure the
full consideration which its importance demanded.
Mr. V. SMITH regretted that the necessity should
have arisen for another direct interference with the
colony of New Zealand. This colony was the one
most congenial to Englishmen, and therefore possessed
Peculiar interest for the Legislature. However much
praise might be due to the governor, Parliament
could take none to itself ; for this Bill was an admis-
sion of their past neglect. A Bill had passed the be-
:gislature in 1846, almost without discussion. In
December last the Colonial-office had begun to act on
this constitution—which now turned out to be wholly
inapplicable to the circumstances of the colony—
'although it had been promised that it should not be
enforced until it had received the approbation of Go-
-vernor Grey. Almost as soon as the Bill had passed
'there arrived from New Zealand a protest against the
measure by the inhabitants of Nelson, denouncing the
Measure as one based in utter ignorance of the colony.
'As it was now proposed to suspend the political con-
stitution, he would suggest that it would be as well
to suspend also the territorial constitution, as placed
is the hands of the New Zealand Company. It
seemed that certificates were to be granted to the abo-
rigines, entitling them to vote ; and it was highly pro-
bable that their pride might be thereby offended. Ac-
cording to Governor Grey's account of these men, their
moral and religious character stood very high—more
so, he feared, than the character of many of the emi-
-grants from this country. He thought that matters
'of this kind might be safely left to the discretion of
Governor Grey, whose conduct afforded an ample
guarantee for his efficient management; probably to
no man who had ever been sent out as governor
l'sight a wide discretion be more safely entrusted.—
(Hear, hear.) With every respect for the character
or the bishop, he certainly thought him an agitating
la'ishop.—(Leughter.) He had made his protest
ainst Governor Grey's proceedings, as the " head
of the missionary body ; and everybody knew how
frequently missionary zeal overstepped discretion. It
could not be contended that he did not mean the pro-
test to be made public, for he declared his intention
" God being his helper," to inform the natives of
New Zealand of their rights and privileges.—(Hear,
hear.) Such a man as bishop must impede very
seriously the steps taken by Governor Gray.
Mr. PALMER defended the character of the
bishop, and said that he had done more genuine ser-
vice, not only to the cause of religion, but to the poli-
tical and social interests of the colony, than could
possibly be done by any company here or elsewhere.
'The colonisation of New Zealand had presented a
dayourable contrast to the colonising efforts of other
countries ; by the aid of the missionaries, civilization
and religion had been introduced, amidst much per-
secution from the natives; and upon the foundation
they laid the Government had been enabled to build
its political system. The advantages thus derived
-were owing to the missionaries.—(Hear, hear.) It
was true there might be instances amongst them, as
amongst other men, in which zeal had outrun discre-
tion. The high character-of the aborigines had been
manifested even by the humane way in which they
had conducted their wars. The bishop had clearly
understood Lord Grey's dispatch, as he (Mr. Palmer)
understood it, to deny all further terri-
torial rights to the natives ; and with this
view the bishop and the missionaries could
not do other than protest against the principle.
Mr. HUME regretted when
,he first saw it an-
nounsled that Government intended to repeal that
portion of the Act of last year which extended sel
the
f-
governmen to the colony, but, on looking at
papers which had been laid on the table, he must
adinit they fully warranted them in the course they
had taken. The rea.ions seaigned by Governor Grey
for such a step were ananly sufficient.—(Hear.) The
conduct of the bishop, he was sorry to say, had thrown
a new element of difficulty in the government of the
colony. He believed no document had ever been laid
before Parliament in which a bishop or clergyman
load stood up and publicly bearded the governor of a
%limy, and declared that he would dispute the orders
not of the governor only, but of the Secretary of
State for the Colonial Department—(Hear.) It had
been laid down that the natives had no right of pro-
Verty except in the land they actually occupied. This
pcinciple the bishop opposed, and preached to the
s wages that they were entitled to all the land in the
colony. The people of England were, in fact, paying
a salary of 6001. a year to this bishop to be a firebrand
in the colony. He did not dispute the high qualities
the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) had as-
cribed to Bishop Selwyn, but to him (Mr. Hume) it
appeared the Rev. Gentleman had every sense but
common sense.—(Hear and a laugh.) He would
advise the Government to remove him as soon as
possible to a better climate, or, at all events, stop hie
salary. The Hon. Gentleman who last spoke had