The Sun.
London, England, 1841-05-15 00:00:00

.11cri7tc, in any way, the ccndition of the ope-
rative; of the country. Seeing the Hon. Mem-
ber for Yaitdey in his place, he v.i ;lied to call his
urtention to what he stated hot night relative to the
India and Caine, Association. lie stated, as Deputy-
Chairman of thi. Association, that that Society were in
favour of the prorsitions of the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer. Now, he (Mr. Alderman Copeland) felt
bound most anequivo,..ally to state that such was net the
fret, but that they were most decidedly opposed to it.
Mr. TIASTIE felt obliged to the Hon. Meiaboe fur
:Wet-nine for giving him an opportunity Of putting him-
tsalf rzo.,t. What lie had stated wa; that all bat a ma-
-iority of ele people connected with India approved of a
swlerate difVere.ntial duty, not a prohibitory duty, and
-; the!, the Lon. Member cordially concurred. He had
.t.ao to state, that vilien he mentioned that he was De-
paty-Chairman of that aissociation, he mentioned it
with the view of convinctig the Howse that he had
.wounds for the statements he made.
• s:r 11. VIVIAN was always tenvilling to trespass on
ti o indulgence of the House, and especially was he
.so at the present time, when the discussion had
pitoeyeeded for six days ; but having always been a
sAxenuoas advocate for free trade, and having always
-noixen to favour of the Corn-laws, he thought he should
watiting to himself and the House, if he hesitated to
;tatty his entire concurrence with the views of
0-over:la-lent. With respect to the Corn-
iamvs, he would ask his Honourable Friend
the 11:enits for Coleraine whether they had ~ans-
iverA the purposes for . which they were in-
`Wed ? lie would rentur;! to say that they had not,
bat that they had deranged the whole monetary system
of the country, and they had made it appear as if there.
were two parties and two interests in the country. Now,
his own part, he had always felt that the agricultural
frost and the commercial were so interwoven that one
could not flourish without the other.—(Hear, hear.) He
would venture to say that as long as the Coen-laws ex-
ited, there would be nothing - but distress in the coun-
try. As an instance of the effect of the Corn-laws, he
would state that some time since he had occasion
;0 go to Liege to see if in case of necessity he ceuld ob-
lain arms there. He found the manufactory there busily
it.mployetl in getting up goods that had been ordered at
liirininghani but refused. there ; and upon making in-
quiries he (Sir H. Vivian) found that the arms for which
ni. 10s. were usually given in this country, he could
get there for 21. Upon going to Birmingham and in-
quiring the reason of this, he was told by a manufacturer
there, while the Corn-laws existed it was impossible for
them to compete with foreigners.—(Hear, hear.) As to
the sugar duties it was said if that measure was carried
id it would increase slavery. He was as decided an
euenny to slavery as ever existed, and being such he must
state his belief that it would have no such effect.
In considering the reduction of Is. Gd., they should
',oak not only to the reduction itself but to the effect
kisich it would have upon consumption. The Noble
Lord concluded by saying that borough after borough
liad slipped out of their hands. Was the Noble Lord
anti those who sat with him prepared to approve of the
means by which that had been done ?—(Cheers from
the Liberal Benches.) Were they prepared to go with
lye Chartists ?—(Here some observation in an under
tone was made from the apposition benches.).
lt was _ possible that such a change as Gen-
tlemen contemplated might take place.—(Hear.) He
would not admit that though.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh
from the Opposition benches.) When that change does
cake place, depend upon it we shall see the Hon. Baronet
rand Hon. Gentlemen opposite coming down to the
House to propose measures very similar to those under
the consideration of the House.—(Near.) It must be
era The time was come when it was not safe to put off
,tine consideration of this great question any longer. The
trillbe was come when England would see the cause of the
opposition which had been made to these measures, and
when it would be admitted that England, of all countries
on the face of the earth—England, rich in its productions,
• rich in its mineral productions, rin in its merchants,
rich in its artisans—that England, above all countries on
tiro earl, ought to have every possible facility given to
the extension of its trade.
Sir C. DOUGLAS said as he had been a Member of,
-ilia Committee on Import Duties to which allusion had
baAan made, he begged to tell the House that the analysis
proaented to the ouse was not a correct statement of
At occurred in that Committee. The Honourable
ber then referred to transactions which had
occurred in reference tto the slave trade during
the Administration of the Duke of Wellington ; and he
contended from the measures which had been adopted
'`wr that Government, they
ley had been opposed to and had
taken steps for preventing the slave trade by the very
e which were opposed by Hon. Gentlemen opposite.
In his opinion the measures under consideration were of
a 'Tv recent date, and
~proceeded entirely from an un-
e4litentional tenacity of office. The Government came
in with * zreat cry of " Peace, retrenchment, and re-
t,-m.4' He c-ontended that the Government had
enticell d • ved the country with respect to
4"i° objecta.—(Cheers.) --They never thought of
'a. exonpt when they found that they were
l
"AlQg gmund.—(Cheers.) He had no wish to say any-
"nal_Porsoaal er ofSensive, he-spoke of the Government
"InaGvernment, not as individuals. But he would just
agape one quotation from what Mr. Fox had said, on the
metion of L( rd
)George Cavendish against Lord North's
A-4ministration In 17p, : "He
roan who would be an infamous
should, on cOming into place, abandon the pro-
fes.sions which he made when out of place." If the pre-
vent- Government should, by the course they were pur-
suing, render it almost impossible for any other party to
hold the reins of office, he would leave it to the House
to ssy how that expression would then be applicable to 1

Sir IL PARNELL said the Hon. Member had found
f,,e;llt with the Report made by the Committee on Import
Duties, but he believed that they had named it in strict
ollitbrmiiy with the evideace laid before it, and that the
witnesses were those who were best qualified to pro-
. ;:iiance an opinion upon the subject. He believed the
Itoport of the Committee had gone far to enlighten the
F.:toile as to the large suaiswhich were paid, not by way
of revenue but for the purpose of protecting particular
laicrests.—(Hear, hear.) Why there were not less
tl,.an 84 articles of colonial produce on which protecting
4!1t:.t‘..,s were laid. It also showed how the increased
e.:-.oiee and the consequently enhanced price had inter-
fe.rod with the consumption of vanons articles. The
ot.untry had now obtained the most authentic
e.:l.lence as to the immense sums paid annually
•_: i. 6 t vs, ay of indirect taxation, and the manner in which
w' ./.I.tioni had crippled their co•mmerce and manufac-
), 7 -kli 'lle believed it had been clearly established that
'..1
k 5
Tapifilmt paid by way of indirect taxation equalled
Atike -i.l) ye sum paid by way of revenue, and the conse-
_:_snittig,vas that the people were paying L 0,000,000/.
00.4P'aas.more than they ouIX to pay,
It appeared to.
' - NI:I thirty carrying out the measures recommended in
..._,L A the.W..rt of that Committee by revising the differential
j , • - ~ otective duties, they would promote
\ 1 ..e. . the commerce
ci .e country, place it on a sound and more permanent ,

Indies would be inadequate to the demand in the British
market for the ensuing year. He did not think that
the question, as regarded those colonies, had been fairly
argued. During the past year the West India proprie-
tors had been aided bet of the Consolidated Fund, to
the amount of nearly 80,0001., and such being the case,
and the value of the slaves having been paid for.
he did not think they could stand in the way
of measures in which the interests of the country were
involved. He thought the House would be wrong, afte,
Ate great advantages they hadlgiven to the West Indians
if they were to refuse a great commercial treaty. The
exports to the Brazils in 1839, even under the present
slifavourable circumstances, amounted to more than two-
thirds of the exports to the West Indies, and if by enter-
ing into- a commercial treaty with the Brazils, and by
that means opening the markets of South America to our
commerce, we should realise the proud boast of Mr. Can-
ning, we should have called a new world into ex-
istence.—(Loud cheers.) • With regard to the timber
duties, he thought that that was perhaps the
weakest point of the proposition of the Right
Honourable Gentleman, because he had not carried out
his principles on that subject with the same boldness he
had manifested with regard to sugar and oorn.—(Hear,
hear.) He disapproved of_ the augmentation of the duty
on Canadian timber, and he thought it would have been
better to have further reduced the duty on Baltic timber,
and to have left Canadian timber liable to the same duty as
at present. With respect to the duty on corn the Mi-
nisters, by the proposal of a fixed duty, placed them-
selves in the position they ought to occupy—that of
umpires between the two contending parties in the State.
They had adopted a course which, while it would
give satisfaction to the country, would obviate many of
the evils of the present system. The Ministerial mea-
sure would tend to make the trade in corn a fixed
and regular trade and would conduce to tbe prosperity
of the manufactures of the country. It was the opinion
of Mr. Illanaire, a high authority on the subject, that a
Oxed duty as a protection to agriculture was preferable
to &e sliding scale, Many agriculturists would have
preferred a duty of 10s. to one of Bs., but he thought that
in order to obtain a final settlement of the question that
agriculturists would be acting wisely to accept the pro-
position of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.—(Rear,
) The present system had been tried for twelve
years, and during seven of those years there had been
a considerable importation of foreign corn, therefore
they had failed in their object of insuring a perma-
nent supply from the home-grower.—(Hear.) He was
glad to see that the Government did not mean to
deny to the manufacturers of corn that protection
to which he thought they were entitled. He should be
sorry to expose the British husbandman unprotected to
competition with the corn-grower of Poland and the Cri-
mea. He considered the absolute repeal of the Corn-
iaws a measure which would lead to vast mischief and
hardship, and he was glad to see the Government, in-
wtead of giving into the opinions of theorists, pursuine•
middle course, and he was ,sure the scheme they had suta-
mitted to the House would be approved of by the coun-
try, and that on an appeal to the country, a verdict
would be given in their favour.—(Cheers.) He gave
hem full credit for that dignified disregard of the emo-
- iuntente of office which had impelled them to declare,
that whether in or out of office, they would maintain
the principles they had propounded, and he was con-
vinced the country would wish to see these measttre car-
ried out by the Ministers who had propounded them
end not by those who, now seated on the Opposition
bienehes, might hereafter find it convenient to adopt
'hem. He was sure the country wished to sec thcsemeasures
esrried out by its friends, and not by those who were in
opposition to it. The country was anxious to see re-
irms carried out by Beibrmers.—(Hear, hear.) But
..,hat the Ministers should resign office without appealing
to the country, he could not tor a moment contemplate.
That the limas° and the country should ace this
measure carried out by single-hearted Reformers was not
(~.:13r his wish but that of every right-minded man in the
country.---(Hear, hear.)
Mr.,Alder_uan COPELAND totally dissented from
the proposition brought forward by the Chancellor of the
Ptchequze% He thought the budget, if carried out, would
prove the total rain of the commerce of the country.
s to the Corn-laws, their total repeal would not amc-

footing, and materially benefit the working classes. It,
appeared to him that the true character of the
proposition of the Government with regard to sugar
had been most unfairly misrepresented by Honourable
Members on the other side of the House. It was
absurd to suppose that the Government had proposed
the indiscriminate admission of all sugar. There was
still a high protective duty in favour of the production of
their own colonies, and he did not think the measure
would produce any further effect upon the West Indies
than to permit of a wholesome competition, which would,
at the same time, keep down the price and secure a suffi-
cient supply of that article. It was, he believed, stated
on high West Indian authority, that if that country
would take off the restrictions upon their trade, which in
some cases amounted to 70 per cent., they would have no
objection to give up the monopoly they enjoyed with re-
gard to sugar. He thought the true policy of that coun-
try, as a great commercial one, was to remove all restric-
tions, and establish the principles of free trade.
Sir EARDLEY WILMOT said he had been anxious to
make a few observations on the preceding evening, when
the Hon. Member for Kilkenny (Mr. Hume) rose and
occupied the House to the adjournment of the debate.
It was not long ago since that Honourable Member
supported him (Sir E. Wilmot) in a proposition which
he made to the House for the abolition of the
negro apprenticeship., and it was not without great
surprise that he heard the Hon. Member last
night, in a long and able speech, support the views of her
Majesty's Government, which had a tendency directly
the reverse of what the proposition which he supported
relative to the apprenticeship had. Hc,(Sir E. Wilmot)
would not go one step to confer any advantage on the
West Indian interest, but if he would not do them a
favour neither would he do them any injustice. He
conceived that the reduction on the sugar duties was
against the principle of the emancipation of the negroes
in all parts of the world, and for any measure which
would have such an effect, he could never give his vote.
It was to record his vote against such a measure that he
now rose, as he conceived it contrary to all Christian
principles.
Mr. H. BERKELEY perfectly concurred in the prin-
ciple of increasing the revenue of the country by a
reduction of taxation. He was likewise delighted to
find that it was meant by the Government to revise the
Corn-laws ; he felt sensible that it was a measure which
was called for, and he had no doubt would be received
by a great portion of the community with the approba-
tion it deserved. However, with respect to the proposi-
tion for the reduction of the duty on sugar, while he
gave every credit to Ministers for so much of their plan
as would, in his opinion, after a certain period, be attended
with beneficial results, both as respects slavery and the
interest of the planter, yet he could not conceal from
himself that in the West Indies a great experiment was
now being tested for the abolition of slavery and the
slave trade. Upon the success of that experiment in the
West Indies depended the welfare of the African negro
throughout the world. If he represented the whole
of the West Indian interest, and were the cause
of humanity opposed to that interest, he would vote in
favour of humanity. But here the cause of humanity
and the interest of the West Indian merchant were, in
his mind, one and the same. He believed if the question
of the abolition of slavery was thrown over, that the
present would be the worst measure for the negro that
ever was passed. He would therefore vote for the reso-
lution of the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Sandon).
Mr. J. PARKER said, that the Hon. Member who
had just sat down had left out of the account the real
reasons which influenced her Majesty's Ministers to in-
troduce the present measure. The present Government,
and the majority of their supporters, had always perse- I
verei in endeavouring to rescue the negro from the-hor-
rors of slavery ; but they would never sacrifice the
rights of the people of England to the advantages of
the negro population. They had constituents—(Oppo-
sition cheers)—yes, he would repeat, they had consti-
tuents, not only electors, but non-electors. He, for one,
stood there in his place, the representative not only of
the electing, but also of the non-electing population of
the district which did him the honour of returning him
to that House ; and for them he supported a measure
which would provide the necessaries of life at a cheap
rate. It was his firm helief that the course adopted by
the Chancellor of the Exchequer was well calculated to
benefit the condition of the masses of the people of
England.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Whatever might
be the result of the coming division, he had no doubt
that Hon. Gentlemen would find that the principal and
substantial part of the proposed measure would become in
a short time the law of the land. Whether his friends
around him sat on the Ministerial or the opposite side of
the House, he had no hesitation in saying that no blind-
j eaa or infatuation, or laxity of principle, would ever
dh-ert them from the course which they knew
was for the benefit of the people ; they
would support the proposition which was now
made in whate,-er shape it might come before them.
It appeared to him that his Right Hon. Friend had taken
the proper course to protect the commerce of the
country, and supply the deficiency in the Exche-
quer. If there was any thing more clear than another it
was that the House should support the diplomacy
of the country, and strerigthan the hands of the
Noble Lord who had so long and so honourably
presided over it. The more the House did so
the more it enabled him to say to Germany and Prussia,
to North America and the Brazils, we will take your
corn and timber, and other productions; the more it en-
abled him to show to these great countries that our Cus-
tom-house was not hermetically sealed, the more would
it enable him to strengthen our diplomatic relations, and
to illustrate still more the merit of his policy.—(Hear.)
He was satisfied the more they increased the productions
and manufactures of the country—(and herein he was
supported by the testimony of the Right lion. Baronet,
(Sir IL Peel)—the more their own prosperity would be
augmented. He apologised to the House fix trespassing
on their attention, but representing a community inter-
ested as much as any, or above all others, in freedom of
trade, or reduced production, be felt he should not have
acted in the manner they had a right to expect from him,
if he had not raised his voice in favour of the proposition
advanced by the Right Hon. Gentleman.—(Hesr,)
Mr. D'ISRAELI said that he was much struck by to
observation that had been made in the course
of the debate, that one remedy was seldom
found sufficient for two &senses. He thought
it would shortly receive an illustration, and
that it would be found that the present proposition
would not suffice to replenish the Treas2u and keep the
Government in office. The Right Hon. Gen::lem4n had
taken what was called high ground. He had arfog:ded
to his party the peculiar honour of representing the corn
mercial interests of the country, speaking, too, again
the resolution of the Noble Lord the Member for Liver.

pool, backed as it was by the Hon. Member for Bristol,
who had just deserted him.—(Hear, hear.) With regard
to the question immediately before the House, there
were two points which he thought the present debate
had established ' • first, that the supply of sugar from our
colonies was sufficent for the country, and that in case
the proposition of the Government was adopted, the
reduction in price to be consumed would be almost im-
posible to be computed from its littleness. Then it fol-
lowed that the real question at issue was whether the
adoption of the proposition would open new markets for
us. The Right Hon. the Judge Advocate had de-
scribed those with whom he had the honour to act, as
hypocritical Pharisees thanking God. He (Mr. D'lsraeli)
supposed at the same time that he was a placeman and
a sinner.—(Cries of " Oh, oh !") A fiscal point of great
importance on this occasion was the nature of the market
of Brazil. But when the House heard so much of the
Brazilian nation, and the importance of a commercial
treaty with that country, he thought it would be well for
the House to remember that the population of Brazil
was only five millions, of whom three millions were
,negro slaves and 250,000 coloured slaves, and that it was
the result of general observation and experience that
the population in slave trade did not increase. He
wished, therefore, to see the Government extending their
patronage to other and free countries—the Mexican and
the South American States—but, above all, he wished
them to remember that our exports to Jamaica were
greater than those to Mexico and Peru together. Hon.
Gentlemen had talked a good deal of the commercial dis-
tress in the country. He had not heard that that, dis-
tress was denied ; but neither had he heard any evidence
to prove that it was any other than one of those periodi-
cal depressions which must always occur in a country
where manufactures and commerce were carried on to
the extent in which they were in England. Similar dis-
tress and similar predictions of the decay and ultimate
destruction of her commerce had existed in the
time of Sir Robert Walpole, throughout the whole
of the reign of George 11., in which the foundation
wasnie
hor a
su.
tsluaea
rri laid
Burke,
of
ancondoudurwtl
dhhce commercial
notmlNlverer.
Pitt
remember
et greatness
roli egoperiods
t.O
Members
hislon f the time
commercialofM
de-
pression. But if they would look
tti
so n facts cetvs md in
nffir ctihal
documents they would find there w
what-
ever of any permanent decay. It was said tehnacteit was
true the amount was maintained, but that its character
was altered. That was an important question, but one
which could only be decided by the profoundest
inquiry.
If they would look to the markets of the o
would not find a single evidence of their decline—they
they
n—they
would find, indeed, that our exports were diminished in
those countries which had been under the ausp" •
care of the Noble Lord Palmerston, but auspicious
care n s
ici
would suppose that our commercial tariff had produced
these results. The Noble Lord admitted that these
markets had been disturbed, but attempted to fix on
those around him the approbation of the policy Which
had occasioned it. He (Mr. D'L) had never heard
statements more erroneous. He would not tantalise the
Noble Lord's memory by referring him to a debate on
which he had had a majority, but on the China debate
lie was satisfied that no such approbation had been be-
stowed as that which was asserted. But our expbrts to
those places, with whom we had long maintained com-
mercial relations, had of late considerably increased ;
and not Only so, but we were now penetrating into the
interior of new countries with whom we had every reason
o expect we should form extensive commercial relations.
Nothing in the course of this protracted debate had sur-
prised him more than the charge of faction made against
Hon. Member for Tamworth—(Cheers)--
whose
ltti
gotal want of factious feeling kept the Noble Lord
who made the charge in his present seat in the Adminis-
tration.--(Cheers.)
Sir 11. VERNE Y thought it was necessary for the ex-
tension of the trade of this country, that measures such
iais heleiratAlltarjaeisety's lledGwoivtehrielmonetnint
ere
proposed,
ialnien sihnouthld be e
interior of
of
Sthoautt!tihlebwneerialctliti,
which the
Great r e s u lßt
roi
ti h n
ini s
inighobservationsderive
w ive from
was
a free commerce with the Southern continent of Ame-
rica would far surpass all the gains that the two
Spains had acquired from their mines.—(Hear, hear.)
Those Members who supported the Government were
not calling upon the House to abandon the West India
interest, or to sacrifice Canada to the Baltic trade.—
(Hear, hear.) The object of the measures proposed
by her 'Majesty's Government was to give an impulse
Htoetrhaclopp,eaand to benAt equally ail parts of the empire.
that Ministers having thrown down the

gauntlet would go through the fight like men and if
they were beaten, it could not be to their dishonour
and it must be to the advantage of the country.
Mr. KEM.BLE said that it appeared to him that they
were then called upon to undo that which the country
had formerly done for the emancipation of West Indian
slavery. The consequence of the proposal of Ministers
would be to give fresh encouragement to slavery in the
Brazils and in Cuba, by creating a new market for their
sugar. The Gentlemen were now acting in direct con-
tradiction to the precedent which they had themselves
laid down in opposing the motion of the Hon. Member
for Wigan last year. There was nothing to justify such
inconsistency, as the price of sugar was now becoming
so low, that, according to the evidence taken before a
Committee of the House, there would be no limit to the
consumption. He confessed that he had read with great
astonishment in the papers of that day the resolutions
of the Anti-Slavery Committee of Liverpool—(Hear,
hear, from the Ministerial benches)—for he could not
have conceived it possible that those who had been in-
cessantly urging in the country the criminality of the
slave trade, would not come forward to support a mea-
sure which in June last they held to offer an encourage-
ment to the evil which they
.were formed to suppress.
It was, however, to the national wish—it was to the
people of England, they were in reality indebted for the
emancipation of the negroes ; and he confidently be-
lieved the people would not now shrink from the conse-
quences of the course they had pursued. He admitted
the difficulties of the country, and deplored them as
much as any man ; but it was to the conduct
of the Government themselves he attributed those evils,
and he hoped that they would not long have the destiny
of the country in their hands.—(Hear, hear.) How dif-
ferent was the state of England from what it had been
when the Whigs came into office after the downfal of the
Ministry of the Duke of Wellington ; and how much
had they forgotten the principle of Mr. Huskisson,
that there should always be in this country a surplus re-
venue of from 4,000,000/. to 5,000,000/. ? He did not
think that the present was a proper time for bringing
forward the measures introduced by the Government, or
that they could, under existing circumstances, be brought
to a satisfactory conclusion. Those measures might in
the opinion of some be ultimately successful.—(Hear,
hear, from the Ministerial benches.) They might pro-
duce some good, but it was possible, too, that they would
bring much of evil and of disorder upon the country.
Under these circumstances he would feel it his duty to
oppose, as he did on the 25th of June last, the motion of
the Government.—(Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
could not but regrets that some of the leaders of the
party to which the Hon. Gentleman who had just ad-
dressed the House belonged, were not present during the
latter part of his speech, for he was 'sure that if the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Pembroke, or
the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire, who
had assisted in drivinc, the Duke of Wellington from
office in 1830, though' they had since united with his
party—he was sure that if they had been present du-
ring the observations of the Hon. Gentleman they would
have enabled him to give a different account of the state
of the country at the time from that which the Hon.
Gentleman had given, and they would have refreshed
his memory with some few particulars which he had
omitted.—(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches.)
They would have reminded_ him of circumstances which
he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should have
thought that a gentleman so much connected with the
City could not have forgotten. They would have re-
minded him at any rate that at that period, throughout
the whole of our agriculture, no one could sleep in quiet
—and that property was repeatedly in flames.—(Cries
of " Hear.") They would have reminded him that at that
time the King of wEngland was not able to pass through
his own City of London • and, with respect to foreign
affairs, it should be recollected that a Noble relative of his
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) then declared that the
state of our foreign affairs was such, that he defied the
Government to keep the peace of the country for six
weeks. If the Hon. Gentleman, in his statements on the
sugar trade, was merely as correct as in his recollection
of political circumstances, he (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) was afraid that the House could not place much
reliance on his statements on that subject. It was a
great satisfaction to • find that the Hon. Gentleman had
not so many facilities of obtaining accurate information
on the sugar question ; he only touched upon that subject.
He had referred to the ;;lovely case, but when he came
to the details of the question before the House, lie found
that the Hon. Gentleman handled it as ilitgerly po§B
Bible, and contented himself with referring to general
questions of finance and commerce. He would not follow
the Hon. Gentleman into these questions—he would say
nothing of the opinion of Mr. Huskisson, that we should
have at all times a surplus revenue to the amount of
4,000,0001. or 5,000,0001; that was one of those beauti-
ful dreams which financiers sometimes indulged in ,• but
he would tell the Hon, Gentleman, if he consulted the
history of the country he would find that under no
Administration had it been reallsed..—(Hear) In the
observations which the Hon. Gentleman had made an
the sugar question, he had fallen into the same in-
consistency with other Members of his party who had
preceedcd him. Some Hon. Gentleman told him that
he would get no foreign sugar, and that he could not
hope to make up the revenue from that source,
whilst others told him that under his scheme there
would be such a deluge of Cuba sugar—(Hear, hear)—
that such a quantity of it would come into the
British market, that the negro population of the
West Indies would be thrown out of employment,
that the West India proprietors would be ruined, and
that even the rich ryots of the Ganges would sink under
the weight of competition. , It was very inconvenient to
deal with Hon. Gentlemen who did not know exactly
what line to take upon the subject. They should have
settled before-hand whether no sugar was to be imported
and he was to get no revenue, or whether there was to
to be an extensive importation of sugar, and lie was to
get a large revenue at the expense of the West Indies.
The two propositions were utterly irreconcilable. His
Noble Friend (Lord J. Russell) had stated to the House
the mode in which the duty was to be raised ;
and he thought that statement would satisfy the House
not only that ample protection had been given to the
West Thdian interest, but also that they could safely
calculate on receiving the amount of revenue which they
had stated. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) sin-
cerely believed that their expectations on that subject
would not be disappointed. Her Majesty's Government
had satisfied themselves that the proper way to meet the
nos,iNeial difficulties of the country was to take an en-
larged view of its difficulties, to give a new impulse to
cocnierce, and not to lay additional burdens upon a people
already lciently burdened ; and they had thought it
their duty to cdri'slder what was the due amount of the
protecting duty to be o!ven to West India sugar in con
parison with foreign, sugar. He would ask was that a
sufficient price to the West Indian—would those prices
secure to that interest a fair Awl reasonable return ?" If

Honourable Members would look $ !hp paper which he
had the honour of laying upon the table et the House,
they would see that from 1820 lip 0 MP:
throughout the whole of that time, with the
exception of the two years, 1835 and 1836, the price
of colonial sugar had never exceeded 395., while in those
two and the last two years ho would acknowledge the
price of sugar had been very much higher, but the price
he had secured to the British colonies was *Nice which
had not been exceeded, with those exceptions, during
the last 20 years. He had been taunted that 50 per cent.
was a very considerable protection to any article of ne-
cessity or trade. The Noble Lord, the Member for
North Lancashire acknowledged on the other evening
that sugar now was an article of neecNity, but his (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer's) object was not to inter-
fere in any measure, but to give ample security
to the West Indian interest, by giving them the
high protecting duty of 50 per cent. But it
must be remembered that that was not the only
advantage which the West Indian interests had obtained.
His Right Hon. Friend the President of the Board of
Trade had introduced a Bill giving certain facilities to
the West Indian trade. In 1833 a Committee of that
House sat; and long calculations were entered into, Th@
West Indian interest then stated that the restric-
tions upon their trade and commerce was a heavy addi-
tional taxation upon their sugar. He did not
want to tie them down to the statements then
made by them, for any interest making out a
case for themselves were generally carried away by their
feelings, but he was bound to say that by the Bill
his Right Honourable Friend brought in—which,
though it did not enirely remove, still greatly
reduced the restrictions pressing upon the West
Indian trade—that trade received a facility to the
amount of the restrictions taken off. It had been said

that the 700,0001. which he expected, would not be
realised ; now, in his dealing with sugar, his object had
been to fix a certain sum beyond which the price of
sugar would not rise. So long as colonial
sugar could be sold below a certain price
foreign sugar could never interfere or come in competi-
tion with it. The question then was, what sum he could

,
really obtain at the price he had fixed ? He begged, then,
again to refer to the table which he had laid before the
House, and they would find that in 1825, when the price
of sugar was 38s. 6d. the consumption was 3,020,000
tons ; in 1826, when the price was 30s. 6d., being then a
reduction of Bs., the consumption had increased by
494,000 tons. In 1836, when sugar was 40s. 10d„ the
fallen to 345. e consumption was
d., the
consumption was 3,480,000 tons ; while in 1837 the price
having again4,B6o,oootons. Let the House look at the price of sugar
during those years, and they would find that by securing
the price of 365., while of late it had been from 395. to
495., he had therefore secured a fall of 65., and therefore
they could calculate upon a much larger importation
of sugar during the next year than any of those
Preceding. Taking those amounts, and looking to the
increase, of population, he found that, even taxed as it
had been, the consumption had increased. Taking
the amount of last year, and considering the reduction,
they might rely upon an increase of 523,000 tons of
sugar, and taking it and the revenue, he proposed
it gave 660,0301.; he had placed at 700,000/., but that was
supposing that every ounce of sugar that came in was to
be colonial sugar, and introineX at the lowest rate .of
duty, and that did not include any duty upon molasses.
Provided he could secure a low and fair price for sugar
for all turned upon that point, provided a certain pries) of
sugar were realized they might rely upon a certain re-
venue of 709,000/. Re believed that that sum was
very much under-rated. In 183 a the consumption of
the country was 191bs. per head, taking thg population of
1841, and the rate of consumption the bo.iNg ns
in 1830 instead of raising 700,0001. they
would raise a revenue of 1,606,000/. Taking
the duty always at the lowest rate, in the year
1831, when the consumption amounted to colbs, a-head,
we would have received, 1,659,009/. ; in 1839, 1,320,60'r'1
in 1833, when the price had risen, 992,000/. ; in 1834,
1,000,0001. ; in 1835, 1,300,0001. ; in 1836, when the
price was highest, and the consumption lowest, only
SO that, taking 991NITnPti'm
549,000/. ; in 1837, 1,115,000 L ; in 1838, 1,128,000/. ;
and in 1829, 720,000/.
of any one of those ten years, with the exeeptiott a 1130
year 1836; as the basis of their calculation, he would re- 1