The Sun.
London, England, 1840-02-01 00:00:00

udgment.— LHear, hear.) I ant compelled by this course of in. 1
quiry to take a course wli ch reliaps may, at this late hour, be
tedious to the House, but which I teel called on, from the state.
ments on the ether side of the House. The Noble Lord, the slelia-
ber for Lancashire, Wishes us to confine ourselves entirely to the
proceedings of the la,t five years—he says we must not go beyond
the lest five years--he says we lidiast not refer to what
happened in 1829, for that Is beyond tne limit, although
lam most anxious Co embrace a longer period.—(Heari
hear.)
Reverting to this question, I must beg the House to observe that
towardS the end of the last century there Was a Very great increase
in the 'copulation, especially in the Mennfacturing towns. This
population it was easy to infiarne and ekcite by harangues at large
meetings, and by inflemmatoty articles in newspapers. Such ek.
citernent there was towards the end of the last ceetUry, and the
means taken to sUppress it were the suspeeslon of the Habeas
Corpus, new laws with regard to sedition, and a prohibition against
attending public meetings. Theta laws were renewed from time to
tame to the year 1801, arid Lord Eldon, who was then Attorney.
General, many yeas afterwards stated in the House of Lords that
he believed he had instituted more prosecutions than any Attorney-
General had done, but that the law was found to be totally insufficient
and that the adoption of a severe course was found to be necessary. In
the year 1817 a similar spirit occurred, aria a secret Committee
was appointed of this House, which gave an account of the state of
the country, which it is not necessary that I should now read to the
House. The Report, however, states that one of the doctrines
maintained was, that the landowner was an evil, but that the fund..
holder was a greater. In that year the Habeas Corpus Act was
suspended. It remained suspended for a whole year. And in the
year 1819 fresh dangers arose, of which, with the permission of the
House, he would give a short account by reading the statements of
the Noble Lord, who was the Foreman of the Grand Jury of the
county of Middlesex. That Noble Lord said that the Grand
Jury had made inquiries, and the result of those inquiries
was that the most inflammatory meetings had taken place—that the
object of the lower orders was to pervert the orders of society, to
wrest the land from those in whose possession it was, and to divide
it among themselves. The report further stated that the payment )
of taxes had been refused, and that the landlords had been threat.
ened with the non.payment of their rents. Such was the state of
things in the year 1819, and the result was that six dif-
ferent Acts were brought in for the purpose of
putting down those disorders. I do not intend to
blame the Government, who suspended the habeas corpus, in
order to curb the excesses of the people. Ido not mean to say
whether they were justified or not in the adoption of that course,
but this I must say, that at least there were great and forcible
reasons to induce the Governmen. to pursue the course they had
adopted. While I venture to do justice to the Governments which,
from the year 1794 to the year 1819, have upon every appearance
of disorder in the manufacturing districts, thought it their
duty to 'impend some of the most sacred laws and
institutions of the country. I must say this, that I have
been brought up in a different school.— (Great cheering.) I
have been imbued—rightly or wrongly I will not say, but I
have been bred in the belief that the doctrines stated by Mr. Fox,
that on the occurrence of such danger, it was necessary to put the
law in force, and to proceed against those parties amenable to the
law, but that there was something in the strength of the law by
which those dangers might be met, without any ;violence being
committed against the great liberties of the country.—(Cheers.)
Such, Sir, was the belief on which I proceeded, and I did myself
not many years after I became a Member of this House, oppose
the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. I did so not from any
factious, but from a sincere opinion, that such measures were inex.
pedient, and in doing so 1 was acting in company with such men
as Sir S. Hominy, Sir J. M'lntosh. and the best and wisest
men of my own time. Therefore, when I came to the Government
myself—when I found those dangers threatened, I would not plc,.
ceed with severity if I was sincerely convinced that those dangers
might ba overcome with greater safety by not suspending any part
of the constitution, and I set myself to work to consider by what
means I could, under the law, meet and suppress those d.s.
orders. I have stated at other times what I considered the
character of these laws. It is sufficient for me to say that I
conceived they were so far dangerous that they ought to be
remedied. With respect to the Poor-laws there were
Oastlers and others, who asserted that they ought
to be repealed even at the point of the dagger,
There were others who required Universal Suffrage by which
they meant the disturbance of the system of society altogether. In
1837 .and I S3B meetings had taken place in several parts of the
country, which were generally quietly disp,rsed, but at which
some persons, especially Mr. Oastler, advised the people to arm.
These meetings took place in the autumn of 1838, and in the be-
ginning of December in that year, I wrote to Lord Melbourne,
stating to him the various accounts which had reached me, from ali
of which I was convinced that a dangerous spirit existed in some
parts of the country, and told that Noble Lord that I did not fear
a general insurrection, that I did not think there were leaders to
carry it on, but that with regard to a partial outbreak, I was very
much afraid the danger would not pass over without something
being done. I therefore requested my Noble Friend to issue a pro..
clamation, which appeared in a few days afterwards, warning the
people against that form of meeting which was prevalent—viz..
meetings by torch-light. Those meetings were almost immediately
discontinued, but other meetings took place, at which persons at.
tending were armed. Another proclamation was issued, and after
this it became my duty to correspond with the various
authorities of the country, in order to have the law carried into
effect. In this I was teset by difficulties, as I found many of the
Country Magistrates were of opinion that the peace of their dis-
ti ict would be better secured by allowing things to take their own ,
course than by the adoption of severe measures. But when the
Magistrates attempted to the utmost to do their duty they had not
the means by the civil power of putting down disturbances, with.
out calling :in: the aid of the military.—(Hear, and cheers.)
I very soon found that this was the case, and I mentioned it to a
Noble Lord, a Member of the other House, opposed to us in poli.
tics, and I stated that I did not think it was safe to prorogue Parlia-
ment without providing a more extensive constabulary force.
Other measures were taken by me; I requested the Major-General
commanding to take all proper measures consistent with the neces-
sary discipline of the army, so as to aid the Civil Power, and I di.
rected the Magistrates to proceed against all those who by their con-
duct gave any room for persecution. These directions were fo.lowed,
and I do believe sincerely they led to the prevention of
much disturbance. Some of the letters I then wrote, lam sorry
to say very few of them, were laid before the House. I therefore
hope that the House will take it upon my word, fortified as I have
been by the Under Secretary of State for the Home Department,
that during the whole of that time I most anxiously gave sash di.
rections as would tend to the preservation of the peace. I have
already said that having to employ the officers of the law I could
hardly do it without applying for the suspension of the Habeas
Corpus Act, and this was not a difficulty which occurred to me
alone far it had occurred also to other Hon. Gentlemen. I was very
much afraid that unless the danger was very apparent indeed—
(Hear, hear, hear)—had I introduced a measure for that
purpose I had been charged with acting unconstitutionally
and there would have beets the greatest difficulty in gaining the
assent of Parliament to such a measure, but I felt that without the
aid of the military and a good civil force, the safety and peace of
the country could not be maintained, and at the end of the session I
brought forward the measure for augmenting the military force,
and it passed with a unanimity almost unexampled; and about the
same time the constabulary Bill was also passed, That Bill has been
much opposed because of the patronage it gives to the Government;
and let me here remark that even now an objection is made to
that Bill because it was founded upon the report of a Commissioner
of the Police, and a Commissioner of the Poor_laws. Sir, I must
here remark, that to you I owe many thanks; to your knowledge
of Parliamentary affairs, and to your local knowledge I owe many
of the suggestions contained in that Bill. The disturbances were
completely suppress, d, but in many parts of the country the inhabi-
tants were in a state of great alarm, but the prosecutions were moot
successful. Out of 290 prosecutions there were 232 convictions.
That statement was made by my Learned Friend on a former occa.
sion, and it is strictly correct. Of course there were many cases
instituted at first, which were not proceeded in, which accounted
for the others. So that, considerina all things—considering the
verdicts which we have obtained, and the pease we have
maintained, the Parliament has no right to complain,
either of the Secretary of State, or of the Law Officers of the
Crown. It is a charge, against us that there are publications
which ate not prosecuted ; all I can say is, that we have never
prosecuted where we have seen that it would be unsafe. I have
always refused to prosecute unless the Law Officers of the Crown
were of opinion that we were likely to obtain a verdict. In the
case of the Vindicator, which has been much alluded to,
it was referred to the Law Officers, and they reported
to me that there could be no doubt but that
it contained many seditious libels, but at the same time they did not
think that a conviction could be obtained from a Jury. Now I
thought that it would be better to allow the publication to go on
than to prosecute and fail. If I had desired the Attorney or Soli.
citcr-General to go into Court with a case in which they thought
they could not obtain a conviction, and if their opinions should
be found to be true, I would have run a greater
risk of being obliged to ask for extraordinary mea.
sures for maintaining the peace of the country, I wished
much to avoid the necessity of asking for those extraordinary
measures, yet persons were going about the country using very
violent and exciting language, which it was necessary should be put a
stop to. I was convinced that those who had opposed the suspension of
the Habeas Corpus Act, that those who had opposed extraordinary
measures in 1805, on the general ground that unless at the last ex_
tremity, unless you feel yourselves totally unable to preserve the
peace by means of the ordinary laws, you should not have recourse
to extraordinary measures. I was convinced that those would
not have censured the course I had taken. The Act for the
punishment of illegal meetings was abandoned by the Government,
and we felt that temporary laws against the public produce long
discontent which may exist in future years. Now I have stated less
than I should hove done at an earlier period of the debate—l have
stated the general course I I ave taken with respect to the preserva-
tion of the peace of the country. There was one thing more, per.
haps, he should have mentioned. The Right Hon. Baronet had al-
luded to the reduction of the yeomanry. The yeomanry whenever
they were at my disposal were stronger by 4,000 men than the same
force when the Duke of Wellington was Prime Minister and the
Right Hon. Baronet opposite was Secretary of State for the Herne
Department—(Ministerial cheers)—so that I made a reduction in
the Yeomanry, I did not, as the Right Honourable Baronet

supposed abandon them before 1 secured another force to replace
them. In the year 1814, the yeomanry amounted to 14,000;
whereas they were 18,000 in the year 1838. It appears to me
that, considering the difficulties of the country, and the means at

my disposal—considering what had taken place to disturb the

peace—that those instances which had beea brought forward as
instances of recrimination against me, are light matters in corn.

parison with our difficulties.—(Ministerial eheers.) One of those

charges is one on which I will not now dwell—it is, that I have

made Mr. Frost a Magistrate. It has been sa.d that
I received instructions on the subject from the Magistrates
and that I had been informed that Mr. Muntz Led been guilty of
a label which, however, was not of itself sufficient grounds for sae
logo on the occasion, or which, at least, was not alone sufficient
to exclude any man on the grounds of a want of character. The
Lord-Lieutenant of the County had recommended Mr. Frost, and

said that he was a fit persbn for the Commission of the Peace.
There is another charge abainst we. The Right Hon. Member
for Pembroke, when he made, I will not say a very acrimonious
speech.—(Much cheering.) His accusation was that Mr. Muntz
had been placed in the Commission of the Peace as had been
already said; I had to listen to recommendations with regard to
many individuals, and I could only obtain general information—the
information I obtained with regard to Mr. Muntz was, that he was
a gentleman, well informed, of a good deal of property, and that he
was one who attended very much to the business of Birmii gham,
and was a person who, though he had been at one time very violent
in his political opinions, was becoming more moderate. It appears
to tne not an uncommon case, and I have myself known men who,
when they began their political lives, were very violent in their
political opinion—(Ministerial cheering)--and yet who gradually
became more temperate, or, if you will, more Conservative.
(Loud cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") I can conceive it possible
that a man may become more temperate, more moderate, or Con.
servative in his opinions, his old principles, and his old friends.
(Ministerial cheers.) I could well believe what I was told, and
every thing I have heard since from those who do not preside
in the town of Birmingham, as well as those who were acquointed
with it—that Mr. Muntz has discharged fairly,
and
fully his Cuty as a Magistrate.—(Hear, hear.) There was another
accusation which I trusted the Right Hon. Member for Pembrokewould not have proceeded with after I had interrupted him, because
I thought his candooeueraswioonu.ldhßauvet atth eonficieghintduliceocinhouimratboießaronet
his error on the
dyaenagretrhoautshien tthhoeuegiht he speech I had
made at
circumstances thought
the
had againLrire
eprepaoteodl waianscevelrayst

country. I shall explain very shortly what the differences were.
There was a sinner at Liverpool, which was so numerous that it

seemed to me to be the nature of a public dinner. I stated toy
opinion then with regard to public meetings. I said that so long as
those meetings were for the purpose of discussion, in order to elicit
opinion, that they should not be suppressed. After the observations
which the Right Hon. Barol et had made last session, I could not
think that there would be any doubt or misconception on the sub.

......
ject. The speech I made on the occasion had not been reported
as usual, as it happened that there was no reporter at the dinner.
As to persons having been misled, I believe they only used the
speech as a colour to their proceedings.—(Hear, hear.) I was
Speaking of legal and constitutional meeetings only; they were