The Sun.
London, England, 1824-02-28 00:00:00

ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.

Sir H. HARDINGE said, that in rising to lay before the
House the Estimates for the Ordnance Service of the year, he
felt gratified at not having to trespass upon much of their time,
because on almost every head there was a considerable dimi-
nution. The total sum of the Ordnance Estimates was 978,3421.
being less than last year 91,658/. If from that was deducted the
sum for the Ordnance Barracks 24,0001., the difference in favour
of this year would be 67.0001. Upon the Ordinary Department
there was a saving of 15;588/., composed of 6,000!. less for the
Civil Eestimates, 1,500/. less for the Military Academy, 3,000!.
less for Artillery Clothing, and 'some other reductions. Upon the
Extraordinaries there was a reduction of 55,0001., but that lie
should state was rather to be considered as a suspension of ex.
penditure than as a saving. The permanent savings were 5,000/.
in the Storekeeper's department, 6,000/. in stores, and 1,5001.
in small arms. The next, being the third item, was the (In.provided, which was reduced to 1,090/. less than last year
by 9,5721. This saving was to be attributed to the intro-
duction of short accounts, and he was glad that it had been
effected, as it was a branch of which the House was always-
jealous, because it was an expenditure necessarily incurred
without the sanction of the House. These three items would
shew a total charge, after deducting 141,0001. for the savings
and old stores, of 616,0001. for the effective charge of the land
service of the Ordnance, being 97,0001. less than what the Fi-
nance Committee of 1317 recommended. If they further de_
ducted the 24,000/. for Ordnance barracks transferred to the
Barrack Department, the Estimates of the year would be below
what that Finance Committee stated the permanent establish_
ment could be reduced to, by 55,0001. This bad been done by
the very great reduction that bad been carried into effect in
every department. There were two hundred and thirty clerks
less, which greatly augmented the duty of the others. The next
point was the Barrack Department, in which there was no in-
crease, although there appeared a difference of 14,000/. But
from it there ought to be deducted the sum of 16,000/. which
had been transferred from the Ordnance. In order to shew
the diminution which had taken place is the Barrack establish-
ments since the war, he would state that there were at that'
time barrack accommodations for 167,000 men, which was now
reduced to 42,000, making the very considerable reduction of
125,000. The expenditure on this head during the war amounted
to 620,0001. and was now brought to 120,000/. ; so that there had
not only been so large a reduction of men, but a saving of half
a million of expenditure. In the Estimate for Ireland, which
amounted to 134,376/., there was an excess over last year of
23,000/. But if they deducted 5,000/. which had been transfer-
red from the Ordnance Barracks, and 10.000/. caused by the
repairs of barracks in Ireland, according' to the recommend-
ation of the Commissioners, the difference would be accounted
for. The Commissariat of Stores was the next and last branch
to which he should have to call the attention of the House.—
The estimate was 182,7951., being 90,0001. more than last year.
The difference arose from a cause which he was sure the House
would willingly sanction. It had been found necessary to have
2-1,000 single iron bedsteads for the soldiers, who, during the
war, were put into double births, for the sake of convenience.
But now it was desirable that they should =lie more properly
accommodated. Besides this, there was an increased charge
for stores for convicts sent to New South Wales and Sierra
Leone, which were civil regulations, and not within the power
of the Ordnance Board. In all other parts of the vote there
was a decrease. These were all the observations he had to
make to the Committee, and he should now conclude by moving
that a sum not exceeding 47,2331. be granted to his Majesty for
defraying the salaries of the Master-General, Officers, and
Clerks, at the civil establishments at the Tower and Pall-mall.
Mr. HUME contended that the Finance Committee of 1817,
gave only an approximation to what was to be expected by
proper reductions. The reduction was not so great as it ap-
peared to be, because credit was taken for the stores, which lie
had always contended ought not to be the case; and he under-
stood front the Chancellor of the Exchequer last year that the
amount should be carried to the Ways and Means as was
done with the Navy. He allowed great credit for what had
been done with the Unprovided, and he hoped it would con-
tinue. The whole amount of decrease, however, was not more
than 92,0001. compared with the Estimates of 1819, and this was
not what the country had a right to expect. The expenditure
was now two-thirds more than that of his golden era, 1792. In
1792 it was 442,0001. ; in 1817 it was 1,284,0001.; in 1319 it was
1,212,0001.; in 1821 it was 1,326,000/4 in 1822 itwas 1,244,000/4
in 1823 it was 1,217,0001. ; and now it wa.s come down to
1,119,000. The gallant Officer had spoken of the great reduction ;
which had taken place; but in this vote for the establishment of
the Tower and Pall-Mall, there had been no reduction. He was
confident they might save one-third by consolidating the two
offices, which was recommended in the Reports of the Corn-
mission of Military Inquiry. He last year called the attention
of the House to the office of the Lieutenant of the Ordinance,
and he now begged the attention of the Right Hon. Secretary I
-for Foreign Affairs to what he was going to say upon that sub-
ject. The Right lion. Gentleman met him upon that occasion
with the necessity of the office, and argued that the Board of
Ordnance could not go on without it, and it was upon that
ground that the House supported him. But he wished to ask
the Right Hon. Gentleman how much the Lieutenant-General
of the Ordnance bad been at his post in the last year. He had
been out of the country, in Portugal, during that time, and
yet the Board had gone on perfectly well without him. lie
had been informed, however, that another Lieutenant-General
had been appointed within the last week. The result had
shewn that he was right, and the House wrong, when they
rejected his motion. If he was confirmed in his views by
experience, he had a right to call upon the House for support
in what he was about to propose. The Military Commissioners
recommended the uniting of the two departments of the Tower
and Pall-mall, and of thereby saving 15,0001, In 1797 the
expence of these two establishments only amounted to
18,000!., and now they cost 47,0001., in time of peace. This
was the first time that the House had been told that the
Estimates were brought down to their lowest point, and the
question now to decide was, whether the presenr arrangements
should be permanent. He thought they should not he ; and if
the Housecut them down to 36,0001., being double their amount
in 1797, they would find the office new-modelled in a week.—
The Hon. Member then made some remarks upon the salary
and fees of the first Storekeeper, and concluded by moving a
reduction of 10,0001. upon the vote.
Sir H. HARDINGE said that the lion. Member had mixed
up so many objections in his speech, that he did not know
what points he meant in reality to attack The reduction in
the department immediately before the House had been such,
since the year 1818, that out of 118 clerks, 26 had been reduced,
notwithstanding that the business had been greatly increased.—
He thought, therefore, that the proposition of the Hon. Member
would not receive the sanction of the House. With regard to the
Lieut.-General, although the Noble Lord had been absent upon
private business, he was. so upon the most urgent necessity. It

was well known that Lord Beresford had long been connected
with the Portuguese Government, and that upon his return from
Rio Janeiro to the Tagus, the Revolutionists being in power,
would not permit him to land. It was in June last, that the
Noble Lord went to Lisbon, and in November the Master-
General wrote to.request his return on account of the duties of
his office, to which Lord Beresford replied by sending his re-'
signation. So far, not the slightest objection of a personal
nature could apply to the Noble Lord. The duties of the
Board had, in his Lordship's absence, been performed by the
Master-General, and no inconvenience had arisen on account
of his not being present. His Hon. Friend behind him, (Sir
Ulysses Burgh) had passed eight. or ten hours in the hardest
labour every day, and he himself had been prevented from
leaving town on. the same account. If it was asked why. the
first resignation of Lord Beresford was not received, he an-
swered that the very important services which his Lordship had
rendered to the Board, rendered it extremely desirable that he
should continue to be connected with it. Last week however,
a letter was received from Lisbon stating his Lordship's inabi-
lity to return. Accordingly the Master-General had named Sir
Charles Murray to fill the office, and his choice had been sanc-
tioned by his•Majesty.—(Hear, hear!)—The removal alluded
to by the Hon. Member had already taken place to a partial de-
gree. A considerable reduction bad already taken place upon
the expenditure, though not.upon the vote.
AIL FIUME replied. He contended that the sheaving of how
much had been reduced did not prove that no more ought to he
reduced- The Votes of the House were not always right,
merely because they were the Votes ; nor were the official
statements of Ministers always accurate.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the. Motion - 89
For the Amendment 19
Majority -—7 O
The vote for the Royal. Laboratory was put and agreed to.
X 35,000 was voted for the Civil Establishment after a few
words from Mr. HUME.

£4,143 for Master-gunners, &c. and 67,8341. for the Royal
Engineers, Sappers, and Miners were voted without obser-
vation.

On the questioA for voting 247,2081. for the Royal Artillery,
Mr. lIUME said the proportift of Artillery to the rest of
the Army was not a just one. The Artillery was sufficient for a
much larger Army than even that which we kept on foot, and
was twice the number of that which we had at the beginning of
the late war with France. It was, in his opinion, impossible to
maintain that such a force of Artillery was necessary. The
Artillery was also, he thought, brigaded very expensively ;
and he had no doubt that a contraction of the nine battalions
into six would cause a considerable saving. He did not wish
to say a word against the merits of the Artillery. They were a
deserving And 'a very efficient body; but we might have too
much of a good thing.—(A laugh.)
Sir HENRY HARDINGE said, the amount of the force
could not be at all reduced below its present standard without
great inconvenience. - The Artillery was the only corps which,
in the time of war, could not be aided by the militia.
Mr. lIUME said his remarks were made upon the statement
put forth by Ministers themselves in his Majesty's Speech, de-
claring•that there was no chance of war.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote for 29,5901. for Horse Artillery—
Mr. HUME said an appointment had recently taken place
in this branch:of the service which had called for much remark
and had occasioned some dissatisfaction. Ile alluded to the
appointment of Sir Benjamin Bloomfield to the rank of Colonel-
Commandant: He was an Ambassador, at present, abroad ;
and had been put over the heads of other officers, although
from his other situation he could not attend to his military
duties This had in many quarters been looked upon as a
grievance. _ _

- Sir 11. lIARDINGE said, that by a regulation made in the
year 1814, all officers were to take rank in the artillery accord-
ing to their brevet, and not their regimental rank. Sir Ben-
jamin Bloomfield was a General officer, and his appointment
came under this regulation in the ordinary course. The pre-
sent Master-General of the' Ordnance had caused this regula-
tion to be altered, but of course its alteration could not justly
have a retrospective effect. By the new regulation, Sir Alex.
Dixon, a young officer of spirit and ability, would be the one
put first into active service, though under the old regulation
this could not take place.
Mr. HUME said he had another remark to make. Formerly,
officers in the Artillery rose only by seniority ; but now, he
understood this was altered, and that they were allowed to ex-
change. He wished to know what had been the extent of this
alteration, the number of officers who had availed themselves
of it, and the additional expence which it had occasioned ?
Sir H. HARDINGE said the alteration alluded to took
place last year to relieve the- difficulty occasioned by the very
slow promotion in the artillery. Those officers, who were of
twenty years etanding, were allowed to sell, but only to un-
attached officers on half-pay. The commissions of several
officers in the army, had thus become extinguished The num-
ber, he believed, was fourteen, being the number of exchanges
into the artillery. On the balance, the whole of the increased
expence attending this- beneficial arrangement was 1011.—
(Hear, hear !)
Mr. HUME said he was satisfied with the explanation,
and only wished to see the arrangement extended to the
Marines.
Sir G. CLERK said, that such an arrangement as the Ma-
rines was in progress, and would have been completed before
this, had it not been for the
regretted illness of the First Lord
There were constitutional reasons for keep-
oifngtlttheeAsdermviircaelat
-Mr. HUME said he should always protest against the al-
leged constitutional reasoning of the Hon. Baronet who had,
just sat down.
Sir ISAAC COFFIN said, lie well recollected when the
Honourable Member for Aberdeen complained that Ministers
werir. HLA
eaboutrtiot t; aursid
turn the Marines into an army.—(Hear, hear!)
3
lie merely complained the Marines were
not rewarded as they ought to be. He was against increasing
their number.
Sir explained, and the vote was then
agreed The following votes were then agreed to, without any re-
ItSoA.AC COFFIN
re-
mark, viz.
On the foru the Medical
fbr X 1,788 ifor the Field Train Department.
for Civil Officers, Professors, and
Cadets at Woolwich, .
MM r. HUE observed,
that a reduction in the number of
gs7olEstablishment..
Cadets had been long since promised; but he did not observe a
reduction of more than four in the last three years.
Bir H. HARDINGE said there had been a reduction of at
least twenty within that-time. There were many young men
at this establishment fully qualified, who could not obtain com-
missions, in consequence of the preference given to the em-
dpoloaybntieanwtaorfe otflihactefros
romnerhlayift-hPeaYs:rtilTlehrye olfliitne.rs3wleemrebenrevwer
asputno
onivhialr.fHepuity3,i s thoughaid
he
now th they
were.
certainly
approved of the employment
of officers who had served, in preference to that of those boys.
Sir H. HARDINGE said it was that just preference which
caused the number of Cadets to remain so undiminished.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the question for 75,4741., for the extraordinaries of the
Ordnance-Office,
Mr. HUME said, he 'hoped this vote would sooner or later
(and the sooner the better), be reduced. The whole of the
money laid out at Feversham he considered as entirely thrown
away. He considered the same of the money laid out for Ca-
nada and the lonian Isles, which was an expence that ought to
be borne by the inhabitants of those possessions. He hoped to
see the vote reduced, though he should not propose a reduction
this year.—The vote was agreed to.
On the vote for 87,3361. for Ireland,

•
After a few words front Mr. HUME and Sir H. HARDINGE,
Sir J. NEWPORT referred to the proposed survey of Ire-
land, which he thought would not be productive of any good,
especially if it were to resemble that of England, which had
been no less than 9 years in agitation.
Mr. Got:Lau/tat, Colonel TRENCH, and Mr. D. GILIIERT,
spoke shortly in approbation of the surrey ; and the vote was
then agreed to. -

On the question for 312,572/. f'r the Half-pay for Ireland, a
few words were exchanged between Mr. HuM and Sir H.
HARDINGE, respecting the allowance for Stores, the purport
of which we could not collect.

Sir JOHN NEWPORT complained of the expence attend-
ing the keeping up of a large establishment, which was of no
use whatever ; 9001. a year was paid for the use of the land
alone. He had no doubt a discerning officer was appointed to
the station ; but it would be much more advisable to give him
a liberal retired allowance, and save the rest of the expence.
Sir H. lIARDINGE said the ground was let out for the
9001. a year, and the money was saved.
The vote was agreed to.
On the question, for 48,1401. for superannuated allowances,
Mr. HUME said this was the first, for many years, in which
any reduction had taken place in this expence. He hoped it
would in time be still further reduced.
After a few words from Sir F. OntataxNE v., the vote was
agreed to. • •
On the question for 1,4*.5)1. for Fees at the Exchequer,
Mr. HUME said this was an improper and absurd ex-
pence. It was an expence incurred by the country on the
payment of its own money; and he really haped that com-
mon sense would be allowed to prevail, and that the expence
would be abandoned. *He believed that 20 or 30,0001. was
incurred on this account as to the army alone. He trusted the
Secretary of the Treasury was able t 6 make some communica-
tion on the subject. • •
Mr. HERRIES said these fees were the perquisites of cer-
tain patent offices, and were, of course vested interests in the

1 persons entitled to receive them. The Treasury did all in
their power to avoid the expence, but the subject was one of
too di.Mcult a nature to be discussed incideistally on a question
like the present.
Mr: HUME said, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer would
grant him a Committee, he (Mr. H.) could enter fully on the
subject within a month.--(A laugh.)
Mr. HERRIES said he had forgotten to observe that these
fees forinedpart of the salaries of various public officers.
The vote was agreed to.
On the question fbr 114,531/. for the Barrack Department—
Mr. HUME said the country was now really studded with
barracks. The House was yearly called upon to grant increased
sums for keeping them up.—[ The Hon. Member here went
into some calculations of the comparative expences of former
years.]—Many Officers in the army, he had no doubt, would
take the situation of Barrack Master for the house-rent alone.
It was therefore most extravagant:to give some of these Bar-
rack Masters 15s. a day. There were many filling these situa-
tions who had never been in the army ; and some who resided
100 miles from the barracks. He would ask any Member of
that House, however determined he might be to support
Ministers through thick and thin, whether he thought 65,0001.
this year a necessary expence for barracks ? 30,0001. had been
voted last year, and. 50,0001. the year before. There was also
7,0001. for a Riding School, at St. John's Wood. Why did not
the one at Pimlico answer the purpose ? Unless the . matter
were satisfactorily explained he should propose a reduction.
Sir HENRY HARDINGE defended the vote. The Bar-
rack Masters were paid as low as possible, when it was consi-
dered that respectable men were necessary to fill the situa-
tion. Very few were paid 15s. a-day ; there were some at 10s.,
some at 7s. 6d., and some at ss. A reduction of 4,000/. had
taken place in only one year. The Barracks having been built
during the war, ought surely to be kept in repair ; they were so
kept on the lowest scale. If the Hon. Member would point
out any specific abuse or extravagance, the Ordnance would
be much obliged to him ; but to say in general terms that the
vote was too much, was advancing what it was difficult to
answer except in the same general way. The establisnment in
St. John's Wood was necessary to preserve an uniform system
of riding all through the army ; and that place was selected
from motives of economy, there already being a barrack there.
The size of the establishment should be taken into considera-
tion—it was able to contain no less than 7,000 men and horses.
Col. DAVIES thought the expence of this department was
enormous. It was too large; and was too highly paid. Much
better would it be to allow the barracks to decay than to incur
such an expence for repairing, with so distant a prospect of '
using them. The Hon. and Gallant Officer said there was no
specific complaint made; but it would be difficult on this Esti-
mate to make such a complaint seeing that the money was put
in a lump. If the eyes of Parliament were not directed to the
subjects, they would find the estimates again increase to an
enormous size.

Sir H. HARDINGE could only say, in answer to the Hon.
Member, that the Board of Ordnance employed the most dis-
tinguished Artillery and Engineer Officers in the estimates
which they sanctioned.
Sir J. NEWPORT said, he was convinced there was a vast
number of barracks in Ireland which had been improperly
erected. If then they had the details of the estimate before
them, they would find that such money was laid out on build-
ings which ought to be burnt to the ground. Many of them,
indeed, were built as a sort of job, and constructed of unsea-
soned materials.

Mr. GOULBURN reminded the House that, no longer ago
than last Session, a Return was laid on the Table of a distinct
Account of every Barrack in Ireland. It was, therefore, in
the power of any Hon. Member to make what objections he
pleased to these buildings, and which, no doubt, would be done
if any fault were to be found.
Sir J. NEWPORT and Mr. GOULBURN explained.
Mr. HOBHOUSE made some objections to the continuance
of the King's Mews as a Barracks. He was sorry to see
so much apathy upon this subject. Honourable Gentlemen
opposite knew very well, that one or two years ago they had
fifteen or twenty divisions upon this subject of Barracks, and
now they could not get up one division.—(A laugh.)—He con-
tended it was necessary for the country to know that the House
had altered their minds on this subject.
Since 1815, in times
peace,of
eßigwh st
Hon.wer the
were
cGentleman
a barrack, because they were convenientopposite would not deny that the King's
Mto act upon any occasion against the people. This was uncon-
stitutional, and what our ancestors would never permit. The
modern inhabitants of the neighbourhood of these barracks
had been much disturbed by the military practice of beating
drums. He altogether disapproved of the practice of keeping
Sir H. HARDINGE begged to observe, that deducting the
Constitutional question, the whole speech of the Hon. Member
up solarg.e a standing army, and hedging them round in for-
tifications
was founded on error. If the Hon. Member had looked accu.
rately through the estimates, he would have found that there
was a saving of 2,000/. in that very arrangement which the
Hon. Member found objectionable. With regard to the obser-
vations the Hon. Member had made as to the separation of
troops from the citizens, he begged to remind him that it was
the people who first demanded that separation, and not the sol-
diers or the Government. Neither could he suppose the Hon.
Gentleman would wish to see the soldier billitted more exten-
sively than he WM; in the low public-houses in the purlieus of
Westminster, and places which were the resort of every species
of bad company, and the sink of debauchery and vice. He did
not think the soldier would be made .a better subject, or a more
peaceable citizen, by being domesticated in Tothill-fields, or
what was called Petty France.
Sir ROBERT HERON contended, that the difficulties
alluded to by the Hon. and Gallant Officer were created by the
practice of keeping up a large standing army in time of peace.
Whenever they departed from the wise course of their ances-
tors, they were sure to be involved in difficulty.
Mr. HUME maintained• that there was an increase in the
charge for the Barrack Department this year. The Barrack-
Masters,
very well ' were too highly paid. He thought
7be taken from the charge for Barrack.
11:11115aa4s0ttee179 might,
in his opinion,
and 7,0001. from the charge for the Riding School at
St. John's Wood. He should therefore propose that the pre-
sent vote be reduced from 114,0001. to 100,0001.
Upon this motion the Committee divided—
For the Motion - - 38
Against it - - - 95
Majority in favour of the Resolution —57
Upon the vote of 182,7951; being proposed for the Barrack
Department,
Mr. HUME said, he thought it quite farcical for the House
to be granting votes upon such vague and general estimates.
They ought to know hew this vote was decided, and why the
Commissariat was charged with the Store Department.
Sir. H. HARDINGE expressed his conviction that this
Vote was best charged under the head of the Commissariat.
He was satisfied that the present arrangement was beneficial to
the country.
Mr. MABERLEY had no doubt that there was a far greater
number of Storehouses than was necessary for the good of the
service, and that the country was put to considerable expence,
which might be saved.
Sir H. HARDINGE assured the Hon. Member that strict
inquiries had been instituted to ascertain whether these store-
houses could be dispensed with ; and that the result was, that
they could not. Whilst they had so many places in the globe
to send stores to, it would be impossible to do without store.
houses in different parts convenient to the shipping.
Mr. MABERLEY explained.
Mr. HUME thought that 50,0001. might be saved upon this
head of Storehouses. They ought not to be under the Com-
missariat Department; and he contended that the House ought
to know how much was paid for each separate place.
Sir H. HARDINGE stated that 12,0001. of this vote was for
the liberated Blacks; 8,0001. for fees, presents to the Indians,
and 20,0001. for the Convicts of New South Wales.

The House resumed, and the report was ordered to be re-
ceived on Monday next.
USURY LAWS.

Sir R. HERON begged to ask the Learned Sergeant (Or-
slow) whether at that late hour, and in the exhausted state of
the House, many Members having attended already 9 hours,
he proposed to go into the Committee upon the Usury Laws
Repeal Bill It was really to be hoped that the Learned Ser-
geant did not, seeing the vast importance of the subject, the
extreme anxiety of numerous opponents to the measure, and
the probable length to which the discussion-would run.
Mr. Sergeant ONSLOW thought if the Hon. Baronet had
been present on Friday last, he would not have asked this ques-
tion. He had then postponed it till to-day, upon the express
understanding that it should now come on.
The House then divided, when the numbers were—
For. the Motion - 85

Against it - 31
Majority for going into the Committee --54
On re-entering the gallery we found
Mr. ROBERTSON on his legs. tracing the existence of usury
laws up to the time of the ancient Romans, and opposing the re-
peal of those now in force in this country. - The borrower, as it
seemed to him, was always a fit object for protection, inasmuch as
that he acted from necessity, the lender had no such plea. It was a
gross error to suppose that there were no usury laws in France,
or Holland, or Germany ; no doubt the laws were evaded occa-
sionally in those countries, as they were-in this; but by no
means to such an extent as some Hon. Gentlemen imagined. Let
the House look at India, and see the state to which the natives
were reduced by the want of a check upon the interest of money.
Where usury was once permitted to get footing, there was "no
end to its encroachments ; money was lent, not by the year,
but by the month, the week, and the day. In China, where
interest was limited only to 33 per cent., the wealth was all
found collected in a few hands, and the mass of the people

were ground down to the lowest state of misery and degradation•
The witnesses examined before the Committe had almost SU'
of them been interested parties; but there was not one who
spoke to any inconvenience from the laws as they now stood;
Mr. Rothschild was decidedly of opinion that there would
be danger in their alteration. It was instanced as a proof,
that throwing open the money. trade could do no harm, that
on the interest was DOW lower than the sum arlowed by the
State ; but though this was no doubt true as regarded the trans-
action of great capitalists, the lesser trader, it was well known,
did not now get his discounts under five per cent. The Hon;
Gentleman, after declaring his conviction that.the country hail
not the slightest belief that the (louse would pass the Bill sat
down by moving that it should be read a second time on that
day six months.

Captain MA BERLY supported the Bill; and was no more
inclined to limit or interfere with the price of money than he
would be to fix that of any other commodity. The laws as they
now stood, every one knew, were practically evaded ; and he
thought the value of money would always find its level accord-
ing to the supply and the demand.
Mr. Alderman HEYGATE decidedly opposed the projected
measure, and read a recommendation from a Committee 01
the House, dated the 30th of May, 1318, pointing out that
time as a most fitting one for the repeal ,of the laws in ques-
tion. If that recommendation had been followed, he would
put it to the House what would have been the case twa
months after, when the change was made in the state of the
currency. He heard of no incovenience from the laws as
they stood : saw no petitions for their repeal. The witnesses
examined before the Committee above stairs what were they ?
Lawyers and capitalists—no people. else. Besides he, gene-
, rally speaking, attached no great weight to the evidence given
before Committees. When a Gentleman brought a questioa
forward in the House, he was permitted probably to name his
own Committee; and then the Members of that Committee
called witnesses whose views coincided with their own. IL'
had himself been asked twenty times to come and giie evidence
on particular committees; and if ever he had stated that hi:
opinion differed from that of the friend applyine, the answer
had been—" Oh, then you had better stay away."—(Hear, and
laughter.)—He foresaw great difficulty in the common transae•
tions of life from the want of a fixed-rate of interest. Guar-
dians and trustees, who had not got high rates, might be chal-
lenged with neglect of duty. Besides, the question was not, how
would the measure affect the great monied men, but the small
dealer who wanted accommodation. If a farmer went to a
country bank for money, what was to prevent the banker from
charging him any interest he pleased ? The man, perhaps•
was known but at that one Bank; perhaps there was na
other within a considerable distance. Again, with reference
to the arrangements of Government, could any man doubt that
if the usury laws had been repealed twenty years back, the
National Debt would have been four or five, millions greater.
than it was? We were in a situation now in which the repeal
of the laws, perhaps, would do no great harm ; but we should not
count upon remaining in that situation for ever. As to autho-
rities, they were not all on one side. There was a writer Of
the name of Adam Smith, whose talents were once as inuchr
renowned as any of those who had since written in favour o.
unrestricted usury. There was one evil which lie admitted
in the existing law—it imposed its . penalties . with great
inequality. The fine was treble the amount of the loan.
so that the fine for taking 20/. too much upon a loan Of
1,0001. would be 3,0001., while the fine for taking 501. too much
interest on 100,0001. would be 300,000/. This enormous inc-.
quality was highly objectionable, oppressive, and absurd. Ile
pledged himself, should this Bill fail, and no other Member
took up the subject, to bring in a Bill for the more equitrble
adjustment of the penalties of usury. He might be asked whY
he did not support this Bill, which would save all further
trouble on the subject. There was, a great difference in his
apprehension between doing away with the laws which were
essentially wise and well-founded, and doing away absurd and
opprestive penalties imposed under those laws.
Mr. C. W. WYNN attributed the usury laws, the wisdom
and antiquity of which was so loudly vaunted, to the spirit of
medling interference, which formerly regulated cloth, corn, and
other commodities, including poultry, once a subject of grave
and deliberate legislation. As to the merits of antiquity, the
usury must share it in common with the law which punished
all the members, whether nearly or remotely related, of him
who had committed a particular offence. In fact, they were
beneath the enlightened spirit of legislation which characte-
rized the present age. That they were mainly inoperative was
certain. Every one could produce instances to prove it. he
would content himself with one. He knew a gentleman urr
whom a mortgage of forty years standing was about to be fore:
closed, and though a fee simple to secure the money, he coal('
rate
AAn osd t
at
moor apaiisusnei
authorities,
isoh. BiLei t
edouwnailmaddbstisnituesnoorttoteniitx:p, cclela.epacnt:ydbmot yhuuer c
eminent
mo nireliance annuityeesisl a,ttht
aall
teuonhpptiossenroceei
argu-
ment .was for ever overturned by Mr. Jeremy Bentham, in
wale of as much ability as ever was displayed by the head an"
convinces!
statutes
a twtibast,
htiminecnu,amsbceorrnede
the
f
construction of the Committee of which the
thethhlaceldinecomplained, lie did not know what nwrif"
pen
eono
nkao.sbf.AoallniAdtyieosrmnnit oao:
able and fit persons could have been called to it that the'e°,l-;
nent solicitors and those who had most experience in borro"nr2
transactions.

Mr. CALCRAFT strongly objected to urging this measure
forward so late in the evening, through a thin and exhausted
House-_a measure which he would be hound to say was second
in importance to none of the public interests. As this measure,
had received the commendation and encouragement of five °`
his Majesty's Ministers on the Last occasion, it was a great phi
that they had not lent the House their assistance in the present
discussion. If the Bill was fit to be carried into effect, it ought
in short to be made a Government measure. There was'nu;
thing which the House could do which would more deeply and
extensively affect the community at large. What was it that
was now proposed to them ? To alter a system of legislation
which had been continued with increasing succes down to this
time—which had operated a legislative reduction of interest
from the time of Henry VIII., when legal interest was fixed
at 10 per cent., to the reign of Queen Anne, when it was lowered
to 5 per cent., each succeeding statute containing express re-
cognition of the wisdom of all the preceding, and the country
manifestly growing in prosperity in proportion as the Legislas
ture was successful in depressing the rate of interest. The
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite showed a wonderful degree of
faith in this new proposition, considering his general dread Of
change or innovation. As to authorities, he also had some to
quote, which might serve tokeep the 27 persons who had voted 0
foolishly as he was said to have done, in countenance. Dr. Paley,
in speaking of them; said, that the policy of the usury laws
was to prevent the too rapid accumulation of wealth without
industry—to enable traders to borrow money on easy terms, to
carry on pursuits which would be profitable to the community,
and to secure the power of raising money at moderate interest
for the Government. He'could bear witness that this measure
had already greatly excited the country. As to the case.min-
tioned by the Right Hon. Gentleman, how would this borrower
be situated, if this Bill should past into a law ? Instead of 10
per cent. annuity interest, he would have to pay 10 per cent. us
mortgage. As to Holland, undoubtedly the evidence shewed that
usury was restrained in Holland; and they all very well jrneW
that there were usury laws in France. The only precedent which
he knew of, was one of ominous import, that of the French Can:
vention of 1793, who resolved that money was merchandise, an",
the confusion into which that one resolution threw that confuse°.
country ;—he would not tire the House with the description-
It was enough to say that the law passed the 7th 'of April:
and was repealed the 4th of May. In like manner, should
this Bill pass, the Honourable and Learned Serjeant would be
renowned with posterity, and all the lenders of the present
times. Huzza, for usury ! This Bill would be the signal for
a general rise of interest, and the road would be opened for CaS
full career of avarice—sordid, pitiful, base, mean, hatefsh
avarice. The simplicity of five per cent. would be scouted--
-extortion would cease to be a vice, and solicitors who no" 1
refused to mingle in such transactions, would be eon].
polled to lend their abilities to the binding of the roost un-
righteous bargains ; the most remorseless usury would be
reputable as the profits of productive and advantageous intius.
try. He claimed at least, if the Bill should pasi, that it should
be made a Government measure, and that it should go through
a Committee of persons who would apply a more trying course
of examination to it than any to be found in the esidence be-
fore the House.
Mr. HUSKISSON said, lie could not conceive that it was at
all the duty of his Majesty's Government to take the measure out
of the hands of a Gent. who had brought it forward year after
year, and was Chairman of a Committee appointed to inquisre'
into the subject. It was one on which men might differ, WO'
Out deserving any opprobrious names, and he had come to
different conclusion from the Hon. Member for Warehaul,S
The obloquy which at present attached to those who exacted
more than the legal interest, was, under the present systernt
necessarily paid for by the lender, who required harsher test°
than if no such obligation existed. He was, therefore, &mit
convinced, that the law as it stood was oppressive and injuri-
ous to the borrowers. The opposition to this measure seed''
ed to come principally from the landed interest ; but he was
satisfied that in a course of years these laws were • more
jurious to that interest than to any other. He attached s°
much importance to the change of this law, by which the
value of money was tied down in this country, that if the
s
gentlemen who had mortgages at five per cent. would be
satisfied with a clause that they were not to be affected by this
law, he would be disposed to agree to it. It was said there
were usury laws in Holland and France; but he would ask
were those laws enforced ? Was there any power there for 04'
borrower to recover three times the amount of the money lent
in the shape of penalties ? The Hon. Gentleman (iilr. eat.
craft) praised the laws passed for the reduction of interest fro'