The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-30 00:00:00

that might be retinired of them. He felt peppy to have
it in his power to state that the obly objection the trus-
tees hallo allow Mr. Tidd Pratt, when he went to Ire-
land, to examine their books, was that they feared he
would saddle the nesponsibility on themselves, and there-
fore denied. his right to demand the inspection of the
books. In a word, the sole and only point of difference
betwetal the trustees and Mr. Tidd Pratt, was, that ho
claimed the right of settling the matter; whereas the 7th
and Bth Victoria removed all liability from the shoulders
of the trustees. lie looked upon this subject as well
worthy of the attention of the House, as he considerdd
it a very great and pressing hardship, that 'poor servants
and other industrious persons, should be so 41egitiously
deprived of their hard-earned deposits, through the neg-
ligence and dishonesty of others, and hoped that the
motion of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Reynolds) would be ac-
ceded to. He was empowered, on the part of the trus-
tees, to say that they courted an inquiry, and were una-
nimously prepared to attend a Select Committee, with
the hope that this matter would be sifted to the bottom.
Ho did not think that the Exchequer should be held re-
sponeible, but whatever party might be proved to be
morally responsible, that party should make good the
losses incurred by the depositors. At theeirne that Mr.
Tidd Pratt went to Dublin, there was no power what-
ever in the barrister, and when there existed such doubt
on the matter, and the depositors were not paid, he
thought that the Commissioners of the National Debt
should have called for the accounts, and that thosebanks
should have been closed. On the whole, be thought that
it was duo to the trustees that the matter should be in-
vestigated.
Mr. H. HERBERT said it was with much diffidence
that he rose to propose his amendment, for the case that
he had to support was equally pressing on his consti-
tuents as that of the Hon. Member for Dublin. Ho
hoped that the House would grant that the inquiry
might be extented to the Tralee and Killarney Savings
Banks, and also to the Aucbterarder Savings Bank is
Scotland, for a gentleman in that country had written to
him, requesting him to propose the extension of the in-
quiry to that bank also. In April last there was a defi-
ciency of 34,000/. in the Tralee Bank, the actuary of
which had been arrested and sentenced to transporta-
tion, and a few days afterwards the actuary of
the Killarney Bank went to America, leaving claims to
the amount of 36,0001.; but he should add that of that
5um,16,000/. had been afterwards awarded to the depo-
sitors. Before the year 1844 there was no doubt what-
ever, of the liability of the trustees. lie did not mean
to complain of the Act 7 and 8 Victoria, only as far as
that there was no system of inspection, or machinery by
which that law could be carried out. He had also to
complain that accounts had been frequently sent from
those banks to the National Debt Office with the most
glaring mistakes on the face of them, and at that time
no notice whatever had been taken of them, for at that
time a newspaper had been sent to him containing those
accounts, and that it was impossible for them to escape
detection, so plain and manifest as they were. He
would particularly remark two cases of this descrip-
tion, one an error of 516/. and another of 4271., which
have been observed by the officials in the National Debt
Office, but which, he regretted to say, had been to-
tally neglected.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member
stated three cases in which, the parties being brothers,
the same sum was deposited by each in the bank at
Traleo, on the same day, and at the same hour, and yet
Mr. Tidd Pratt had set down a different award in each
case. The depositors subsequent to 1843 had been de-
prived of their fair rights, and that, too, by a Govern-
ment officer, sent down to adjudicate upon these mat-
ters. He did say that, if ever a case was made out
calling for Government interference it was this. The
Government were bound to pay off these deficiencies, on
the same principle as was stated in Francis's " History
of the Bank of England," the Government had paid off
262,0001. out of the 377,0001. of fraudulent Exchequer-
bills, that being the amount in circulation at the time
of the discovery of the fraud. That payment was made
by the Government simply because they felt the debt
to be a just one. But he could bring an authority
who went down to the very town of which ho was
speaking, Traleee. By an extract from a notification
issued by the staff-officer of the district, who paid the
pensions, it appeared that that officer was authorised by
the Government to offer Government security for the
return of all deposits. That, too, was in 1843, and ap-
plied precisely to the case they were discussing. And
yet his constituents had been proclaimed all over the
world as fraudulent and dishonourable, and calumniated
in every possible way, after being robbed and plundered.
Under these circumstances he trusted that the House
would deem this a case peculiarly calling for its sym-
pathy and its assistance.
Mr. FAGAN seconded the amendment, and said
that if the Government were not bound in fact or in
law to repay their money, he thought the House
would be of opinion that they were at least
morally bound to do so. But ho thought there
were sufficient grounds in the very facts of the
case upon which to hold that compensation should be
made. First. These Acts of Parliament were instituted
for the safe keeping of the savings of the industrious
poor, and it was the duty of the Government to see that
the good intentions of the Legislature, in this respect,
were carried out. Secondly, every depositor of money in
these banks was persuaded that he had the security of
the Government for the return of his deposits. This had
been stated upon ample authority three times in the
course of the debate, and the duty of the Government,
arising out of that circumstance, was greatly added to by
the fact that the Government had used 25,000,0001. of
the savings accumulated by these poor persons, upon
which they had made a clear availablecevenue of 300,0001.
Then, again, the Government hi the year 1844 relieved
the trustees of all liability to pay these depositors. Thai
being so, they were obviously bound to the depositors
that they should stand in as good a situation, at least,
as they did before. He apprehended that Mr. Tidd
Pratt was altogether wrong in the construction
which he had put upon the Act of Parliament. It the
Government had done its duty with respect to Cuffit-
street savings bank, that of Traleo would not have fallen
into so embarrassed a situation. The Hon. Member
then directed the attention of the House to the Killarney
Bank, and said that the money of the poor depositors,
subsequent to 1844, was transferred to the account of the
previous depositors, and that all those poor people got
was three shillings in the pound. He would not longer
detain the House than to say that he felt great pleasure
in seconding the amendment.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
was quite clear that the motion before the House was
simply for the appointment of a Committee to inquire
into and report upon the circumstances connected with,
the failure of certain savings banks in Ireland, and into
any security or liability that might exist for the satis-
faction of the losses - thereby occasioned; but the
Honourable Gentleman who had just sat down was of
opinion that the Government ought to take upon
itself the payment of the deposits. He would confine
himself to the motion before the House, and show
that the appointment of such a Committee would lead
to very considerable expense and inconvenience conse-
quent upon the summoning of persons over from Ireland,
and that it was nut, in his opinion, necessary, inasmuch
as they already had all the information that appeared
necessary, as given before a former Committee. He did
not mean to-night to enter into the very great and im-
portant question whether the Government was to take
upon itself that which it never dtd take upon itself,
liability for the whole demands of the depositors in
savings bank. Those banks were founded by kind-in-
tentioned individuals in their own neighbourhoods, and
those individuals had taken upon themselves to estab-
lish them for the benefit of the poor and the indus-
trious in their localities. They had also taken upon
themselves the whole management of those banks,
and the first act of the Government was, when the
trustees sent up account of the money, for the
Commissioners for the Reduction of the National
Debt, to take account of them ; but no one con-
nected with the Government had anything to do with
the management of the banks, nor with the appointment
of their officers. The actuary, for instance, was ap-
pointed by the trustees, and checked by the trustees. He
agreed in the opinion that when the liabilities to deposi-
tors amounted to 28,000,0001., the case was very differ-
ent to that which existed at the time when they did not
amount to one and a half million. It was his intention
to lay upon the table of the House, in a short time, a
Bill which would show what the determination of the
Government was with respect to savings banks, and he
at present entreated the House not to be carried away
to an assent to the appointment of a Committee, Ite
England, when persons ran away with the money in
their hands, the trustees of the savings banks invariably
came forward and refunded the deficit, by depositing a
sufficient sum of money for that purpose; and in one
case which had come to his knowledge a sum of
7,0001. had been paid in that way. It was the
law in England, that whenever a deficit took place,
it was .to be made good by the trustees, and in
no case had the deficits been made good by the Go-
vernment. The three Irish cases which bad been
brought under the notice of the House, were the first
in which any complaints bad been made against Govern-
ment in respect to funds over which they bidnoted over
control.
The Hon. Member for Cork (Hr. Fagan) stated
and over again that the actuary had been appointed by
the Government; but the lion. Gentleman should have
known that the officer acted entirely under the authority
of the Act of Parliament, and that he acted not as an
officer appointed by the Government, but as an umpire,
his authority deriving under the provisions of the 9th
Geo. IV.: So far as regarded the
banks, there was
e liability of Go-
vernment
addsavings
any
not,
he
deemedwi t with
it respect
right
lavv whatever that
could make them liable—thy never had been liable.
The Right Hon. Gentleman cited evidence taken before
the judge at the Tralee assizes in reference to the defal-
cation in the Traleo bank, and adverted to the decision of
the judge as being contrary to the decisions, in similar
cases,
of the judges in England. In the case of the Tralee
bank, the actuary made away with a very consider-
able sum of money, by falsifying his accounts; and
those accounts were certified by Dr. Denny and Mr.
Fitzgerald, two authorised persons. Mr. Fitzgerald was
asked how he could put his name to such a fallacy? and
his answer was that he had never examined them, and
took them to be correct. Mr. Tidd Pratt made his
award in the ease of the Tralce bank, and the opinion
of the judges in England was that he was the sole judge
in those cases; however, the judge in Ireland upset that
opinion, and inasmuch as there were still pending some
points of law connected with the Tralee bank, and
awaiting the decision of the Court of Queen's Bench,
and as that decision would bo pronounced early in the
approaching term, he (the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer) thought that it was advisable for the House of
Commons, pending such decision, not to appoint a
Committee. He did not for a moment deny that great
injury had been done to the poor depositors by the
roguery of the actuary, and that great misery had been
occasioned ; but he thought it would be his duty to
submit to the House whether the appointment of a
Committee was likely to lead to any satisfactory con-
clusien? In 1831, when the trustees were willing that
the banks should be closed, Mr. Tidd Pratt went o'er