The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-23 00:00:00

LONDON, TUESDA Y

tress of this court Omni.? not be transacted by the Com-
?mission erathemselves. W' t i regard to the appeals re
lacing to matters of law, they could, as before, be taken
i before the Lord Caancellor or the Vice Chancellor.-
He cught to add that in 1831 the Court of Review was
contimied by the measure he proposed ; that measure
, was much opposed at the time, but ultimately it was
' carried with the Court of Review. It was not possible
for him then to predict that there would be no business
for this court, as it bad so happened. But this re-
sult, he believed, had arisen mainly from the admirable work-
ing of the systemsubstituted fix the old one. As he had
stated, the six Commissioners were to be reduced to three, as
the vacancies arose from death, resignation, or promotion.
This would effect a saving, from the reduction of the commis-
sioner. of 6,000/. ; on the Registrars a saving of 3,0001. ; and
on the official assignees from 4,0001. to 5,00 P/. Altogether a
saving of 15,0'01, would be effec'ed. Very nearly 200,0001.
had been recovered by the working up of these old commis-
sions. Another alteration he intended in the Insolvent Act
was to abolish the present system of going circuit, which was
attended with a great expense without giving any
countervailing advantages. Mr. Commissioner Philips,
for instance, was appointed to go to Caernarvon to •morrow,
yet in many places he had but threeor four cases to adjudicate
upon. He proposed, therefore, to do away with these circuits,
and place the duty
of the Commission in the bands of the
Local Courts appointed under the Insolvent Act. The prin-
ciple of the bankruptcy and insolvent laws would, with one or
two exceptions, not be int. rfered with. Now the exceptions
were in this case. The great difference, their Lordships were
aware, between the Bankruptcy and the Insolvent Acts was
twofold ; first, where the party was a trader, and where he was
not; and the other W4S with respect to his discharge. The
bankrupt's certificate was not only a personal discharge, but a
di,charge against his property for the time coming. The dis-
charge under the Insolvent Act was one which affected only
the person. Now, he was inclined to think that there were
many cases in which it might be requisite to vest in the Com-
missioners, before whom the cases might come, a power
to take into consideration the circumstances of the case.
In the first place, the likelihood of the insolvent
succeeding to an estate, and in the second place the conduct
of the party himself, whether he had been grossly extrava-
gant, and above all, whether, knowing that be was in an in-
solvent state, he deferred coming forward until all his pro.
perty was expended. He had framed the Act to take cognisance
of such eases as these. In those cases the Bill provided a
protection for his future gains. The case of a poor farmer,
which was really a very lamentable one, had lately been brought
before him. He had been unfortunate and tried to go on i
again, but nobody would lend him a horse or a cow, as f they
did the property would have been seized by his creditors.
That was just such a case which came within the spirit of the
Act. He had new stated all that he meant to say, and he
should now conclude by moving the second reading of the
Bill, to which he trusted there would be no opposition. He
then proposed that the matter should stand over until after the
holidays, when the several clauses which it contained would be
known, and all its weak points would be ascertained. It
might then be referred, together with the Bill of his Noble
and Learned Friend on the Woolsack, to a Select Committee
up stairs, and out of the two a measure might be obtained
which would give the trade and the people of the country the
inestimable benefit of a certain mode of proceeding in eases
both of insolvency and bankruptcy. His Lordship concluded
with moving the second reading of the Bill.
The LORD CHANCELLOR was not disposed to cffer any
opposition to the second reading of this Bill, especially after the
course which his Noble and Learned Friend intended to pursue.
In 1842 he had himself introduced three Bills on this subject,
but he had not at that time had the opportunity of giving the
investigation to the subject which it required, but the Bill
which he now had before the House, met, he bel eyed, most of
the points of the Bill of his Noble Friend. That Bill went
chiefly to the details, but dot sot touch the great principles
which ought first to be settled, then the details should be made
conformable to them. Th better plan would be to send b rth
the Bills up to a Select Committee, for it was not to be sup-•
wised that the majority of their Lordships could be acquainted
with the subject which was involved in them. He did not,
however, anticipate that there would be any greater informa-
tion obtained by the Committee, or that any better results
would be arrived at than those obtained by the Committee
which sat in 1828. It should be recollected that there was
already a machinery in existence; there was now three Com-
teissioners, each of whom took three circuits a year
each, from which much good was to be expected,
and, at least, by which much expense was incurred.
He said by the recent act judges had been appointed
throughout the country to every district of about seven miles
extent; so that a man might now bring a debt within 201.
amount to court within seven miles of his residence. The
duties devolving upon these judges might likely be heavy ;
they had still the power by act of Parliament to practice;
but how their time might be occupied the Government could
not arrive at any definite opinion. If, however. the business
should happen to increase too much, it would become neces-
sary to make additional appointments. Now, his Noble and
Learned Friend had proposal to give these Small Debts Courts
power in Bankruptcy. Why? did their Lordships understand
:he state of the Bankrupt laws at that moment ? Did they know
that a bankrupt in Norfolk must come up to London, brirg
all his witnesses, and attend his several examinations at
an immense expense. A deputation had recently waited upon
him to represent the great impediment which this necessity of
coming up to London to Basinghall- street furnished to the pro-
oeedings between debtor and creditor. They represented to
him that the expense was so enormous, that rather than incur
it, they would not come to London. The same remark applied
to Yarmouth, which was the limit of the London district. But
fi a debtor could find a competent judge within seven miles of
his residence, it was not likely that he would incur the expense
of coming up to London. Besides that, there were other
points in the law of debtor and creditor, upon which great
complaints had been made, ar.d which requited the most seri-
ous attention. He would not then remark upon these points,
nor had he said so much as he had with any other view than to
impress upon their Lordships the great importance of the sub-
ject, and the necessity of appointing a Select Committee to
hke the Noble and Learned Lord's Bill into consideration.

Lord ASHBURTON said he was not aware that the Noble
and Learned Lord intended taking the second reading of his
Bill that night. He had a petition to present to their Lord-
,hip signed by most of the large firms of the city of London,
bearing OR the law of debtor and credi'or. He was happy,
however, to hear that the Noble Lord had determined on such
a course as that the subject would come on again after Easter,
and that the Bill would be referred to a Select Committee,
when the petitioners might be heard. These gentlemen would tell
hem that as much as 24.000,0001. a year was lost by bad debts.
Ha was afraid that the XIII Would- eneoura to a frightful
extent frauds on tradesmen. Before such a measure was
agreed to, he hoped that the Noble Lord (Lord Brougham)
would consult not only those who were learned in the law, but
also the great commercial interests of the country. In deal-
ing with a question of such magnitude tbey ought to consider
the propriety of resuming arrest on mesne process, and also
he distinction which ought to exist between bankruptcy and
insolvency. He submitted that there was a great distinction
between an individual in business, who got into difficulties,
and a person who contracted debts for his own gratification.
The law, therefore, as applied to each case should be clearly
distinct. He threw out these suggestions to their Lordships,
and hoped that when the House went into Committee on the
Bill, all its provisions would be fully considered.
Lord BROUG II AM was most anxious that the provisions
of the Bill should be as fully considered and discussed as pos-
sible. With regard to the other matters, alluded to by the
Noble Lord, he was also quite willing that they should be
g
reconsidered. If any error had been made in abolishing im.
prisonment for debt, it was but right that they should retrace
their steps, though he felt himself that to go back was impossible.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
committed after Easter.

BOARD OF WORKS.
The Earl of CLARENDON laid on the table certain cor.
respondence with the Irish Board of Works, between the
months of January and March last.
DRAIN AGE OF LANDS BILL.
Earl MINTO proposed the second reading of this Bill, on
which, he said, he would say but little, as the Bill had already
met with such general concurrence. The object of the Bill
was for the advancement of loans by the Government to the
proprietors of land for the purpose of drainage and other im-
proeements. As its details could be better considered in Com-
mittee than now, he would reserve further observations till
then, and he would now move that it be read a second time,
and as the measure was important, he would further move that
it be committeo to-morrow.
Lord EGLIN TON would not do anything to delay so ex-
cellent a m,asure. Still there was a point or two to which he
would call attention. The first was, the
limitation to five
years. This would be very inconvenient in several respects, as
to many cases the improvement on the land could not be well
carried nut in that time. The second point was, the limitation
of the sum to 10,1;00/., which he thought was a most incon-
venient arrangement. tie considered the sum advanced should
be in proportion to the rental of the land,
might arise from
Earl MINTO said, whatever advantages
the proposed alterations, there would be considerable difficulty
in meeting the suggestions of the Noble Earl. It was
im-
portant that the Bill should be got into operation as soon as
possible, considering the distressed condition of many parts of
Scotland ; therefore no delay should, if possible, take place.
Lord STANLEY agreed with the Noble Earl (the Earl of
Eglinton) that the limitation of 10,000!. was an unwise pro-
position. It was a departure from the original intention of the
Bill, which was, as he understood it, to increase the produc-
tiveness of the soil. He considered the advances should be in
proportion to the rental of the estates.
Earl GREY said that it had turned out that the necessity
for relief was mach greater than was at first apprehended, and
the question then arose how was the money to be appplied?
On inquiry it was ascertained that the great proprietors were
in a much better position than the small owners of land, and it
was accordingly resolved to give the assistance to the latter,
and leave the former to drain the lands themselves. He did
same
r, i
rdestitutionied
t o
r relief
i eafs
e inv laeiiy-
not understand the Noble Earl to say that there should be no
power given to borrow more than 10,0001., but that should be
the limit in general cases, and that there should be a further
limitation tinder that sum, so that the relief might be made as
general and as extensive as possible. With respect to the
rdis-
tricts in Scotland he did not conceive that there was any ex-
clusion whatever to forbid their partaking of the benefit of the
lgrant.lre-
land. d.
The There
peoplew as evidently dr en tr
with the proprietors in the sister country.
After a few words from the Earl of MINTO,
in support of
the Bill, it was read a second time.
SALE OF ENCUMBERED ESTATES IN IRELAND.
The LORD CHANCELLOR moved the first re
the Bill for the Sale of Encumbered Estates in Ireland,ading
of
and in
doing so said that there had been some delay in the production
of this Bill, but riot more than was necessary
to constitu:e the
machinery of the Bill.
Lord STANLEY wished to ask his Noble and Learned
Friend when he proposed to take the second reading of the
Bill? As it was of very considerable importance
and the
were few of the Irish Peers in town, it seemed ad
re
visal:ee to
postpone the second reading till after the Easter recess.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that as
it would be
necessary to circulate the Bill in Ireland before it
second time, he did not propoze to take it till after thewas read a
The Bill was then read a first time, and •
th en. holidays.
Lordships
adjourned.

HOUSE (fl COMMONS, March 22.
Tht, SPEAKER took the Chair apt Four o'clock.
NEW MEMBER.
Mr. PERFECT ti,ok caths a dhis seat for the 10-
rough of I.,,wes, in thi' 47 ro-11 ot.s)r 13. Elphinmone, who
ace(Tted tl,e stew,,rdship of the Chiltern Hundred:.
The Hot). 31tinber was introduced by Lord Marcus Hill
and Mr. Parker.