The Sun.
London, England, 1840-05-16 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, MAY 16, 1840.

that it is not my intention to place any new tax on the
p üblie. It is not intended to place in the hands of the tax-
g athcrer powers with regard to any new object of taxa-
tion. I perfectly admit, Sir, that, in time of war, when
yor have driven all your common taxes to the point
which many of them were brought during the last war—
when you have brought them to that point, which,
Sir, if you increase them, the increase rather
diminishes than increases, I admit that in that case you
Mita have recurrence to some new object of
revenue, but as that cannot possibly be supposed to be
the case at present, several advantages may be gained.
—ln the first place, you get the net amount with
less expense than in any other way. The same
party that collected the old tax can collect the new, and
you are not obliged to have any additional establishment.
- Hear, hear.) My object has been, as far as
possible, to separate the burthen of taxation, to
make it as light and as general as possible, and not to lay
on any new subject the taxes which I propose. Looking
back to the practice of olden times, I have found it has not
been unusual to deal with taxation on the principle of per
vantage, and of increasing the duty now existing by a given
per cent. I should propose, as far as it is practicable to
•We opt that principle, although it is impossible to adept it
generally. La she first place, with regard to stamps, it will
be almost impossible to add a per centage on the stamps.
2.'he House must see that Out inconvenience would
arise in making a per centage duty attach to any indivi-
dual.,*mp. I therefore propose, with the exception of
the stamps, to take a per centage upon the Excise,
Customs, and Assessed Taxes. Upon the Customs with
some exceptions, I propose to take a per centage of five
per cent. Upon the Assessed taxes I propose to take a
per centage of 2s. in the pound, or 10 per cent.—(Mur-
mars.) It should be recollected that it is not a per
oentage upon the value of the article, but a per centage
upon the tax.—( Hear, hear, bear.) The first ex-
ception which I may state is with regard to
epithet. It is impossible to take a per oentage upon
spirits. There is one duty in and, another in Scot-
land, another in Eaglaad, afourth on rum, a fifth on East
India spirits, and a Axth on other foreign spirits. Long
experience upon this matter shows there is such a diffv-
reuce between the various articles, that it would be impos-
sible to carry a per tentage duty practically into opera-
iiol2 without great difficulty. In fact, it would throw
the whole trade into a state of confusion.—( Hear.)
I &holed be increasing the differential duties between
English, Irish, and Scotch spirit. I should bo increas-
ing the protection given to home-made spirits which has
been se much complained of by the Colonial producer.
Hear, hear, and cheers.) I should be adding to
that which has bees complained of as an injustice.
I mean the difference that it has made between the pro-
ductions of our East and Weat India possessions. I can
appeal to the experience of my Right Hon. Friend, who
`knows the difficulty of dealing with these questions, cad
If I am only half as successful as he was on the
occasion to which I allude, I shall have cause to
eougratulate myself.--( Hear.) I propose, therefore,
that one uniform rate of duty shall be levied upon all raw.
spirits, and that a tax cf 4d. a gallon additional shall be le-
vied noon all raw spirits, Irish, Scotch, English, Colonial,
and For,ign. There is a'so another exception in the
Casten is Department, to which it is not my intention that
any new rate of duty should extend. I mean the duty
upon corn.__( Hear, hear, hear.) lam not now going to
reser ii to the corn question, but I hope the House will.
recollect that, whether rightly or wrongly I will not now
stop to inquire, tat ce:n has never yet been subjected to
dray as a source of re,enue; but the duties imposed
upon it have been so imposed for the purpose,
if posaible, of securing a fixed price of corn in this country.
The questiel,of the (lilies on corn is not, therefore,
a sevenue question,. but it is one of the greatest poli-
tical impel Lance. I am not tow going to say
whether I consider it ought to be a 'avenue question or
not, but as the [Luse has always been pleased to
consider that corn could not be considered a fair
object of usual revenue, I shall not touch the duties on
corn, but leave them out of the question altogether.
The other point is as regarda the Excise. The House will
recollect that crlghelly cell duties on passengers by dif-
ferent modes of cone:piece, licences, &c., were In the
'tamp department, hut were subsequently tran:ferred to
the Excise.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Now if the in-
crease were to apply to then-, I think it would
effect these Interests in which it ,voultl be moit burdensome,
ta;:elorc 1 propcao to mike t xception from the increase
of the f.iciae.—(liver.) Now as to the Assessed
•Taxes—l propese an ada: jen of 2.5. en the
pound, or ten per cent. There is another point
w Ach retpares no test lutioa , but which I
thin-% it right ?0 state ac part of the cew arrange-
meats. The Hauso rill recolpct that it has been
tdse custom of the Departinnt of Taxes to isease
eirections for the surreys Its to the taoloua taxes;
that, tout ciicurestaeces, has been delayed for a lenge'
;ime than tau el. The esscesincnt hes not tacitly beer
taken, unlese when a new necessity fp:. it arose. But
I (r. 70 every reason to expect that if a
trash survey werai m :de, it woe!d raise
a considerable revenue—not in an unfe.ir manner, but ;-tort
partiva who leave 11,1 paid as much as they ought. This
Is a tax which I k.;ow would nut be very popular,
but it is perfectly just and fair. I would not
feel just:fied in prepoaing to impose new taxes,
until truer who are et present liable to taxes
which oth -r3 pay 1.411, should be brought to account,
sand pay what was feisty seeing from them.--(llear,
bear hear.) I do not mean to make a retrespsetive
charge.—(bear.) -kilo not mean to act vindictively to-
wards them, Qr tie make the tax re.tributive. I wilt not
gay them to pay up :he arrear.—(La'ughter.) I will only say
•• Gentlemen, you have been lucky enough to escape so
so far ; now, will
.you hays the goodness to pay
fairly what you owe in future." (hear, hear,
henr.) kissing stated t e sources from which I expect
to derive the increased revenue, I will proceed
to state the accounts upon which I calculate
from these diarent sources, making those ornis-
sisaa labial' I have explainei From the five per cents.
on C' stoles aced Excise, this is calculated upon for the
year at 426,4001., Spirits, 4d. a gallon, 84,800 e.
Ma tax of ten per cent. en the Assessed Taxes
276,000/. As to the increase from th
survey, when I state the amount of what I expect to get
from it, it will chow to what extent people have es-
caped ; the amount which I expect is 150.0001.
estimates I have already stated of the amount of in.
came which have been properly calculated on without the
atilditi:su, amount to 46 700.0001. ; add to this the addition,
arai the result will be 49,037,0001., the full amount of the
eapeaaditure; including the estimates for Canada and China,
the result will be 49,432,0001. ; and comparing it with toe
income proposed, will leave a deficiency of 397,0001.
Wish regard to the vote for Canada and China, I am not
prepared to make a permanent addition to the.burdens of the
country,and therefore propose to meet thed9d,ooo4 for these
purposes with a vote of credit. I have given that calcula-
tion which supposes all these taxes to be in operation,
and calculated,frem the result of these taxes, supposing
them to have been in operation during the whole year.
Bat as Gentlemei, conversant with the regulations of the
revenue know well that would not be a fair calculation, as
a certain period of the year has already elapsed, and from
the mode in which the assessed and excise taxes are col-
lected, a considerable part is not paid in until after a cer-
t:fin period, and consequently we cannot expect to receive
the whole of their amount during the present year. Sir,
I do not apprehend that 1 could, from any casual dal-
eiezecy of this natia-e arising from the time in which these
taxes are paid into the Exchequer—I do not apprehend
that that is a fair subject upon which I could call for an
additional revenue, and it would not be fair to propose ad-
ditihnal taxation, to meet, not a deficiency in the
revenue, but a deficiency arising from the circumstance of the
time when these taxes are paid. But that will be a consider-
able addition to the vote, which I shall have to ask for in-
cluding the Canada and China vote, and that pact of the
deficiency of the taxes which will not be paid into the Ex.
,chequer in
,the present year. Teat will increase the vote
of credit, which I shall call for, to the amount of 850,000/.
The actual sum which I estimate to be paid into the Ex-
chequer will heap the Customs 2,500,e00/., on the Excise
14,241,0001., fdriStamps 7,020,000/. for taxes 3,880,0004
tor the Post-office, 530,0001. ; for the drown lands 170,0001.,
and for oher miscellaneous items 250,0001., making a total
0148,591,0004 Sir, I have now stated to the House the
probable income and expenditure for the ensuing year,
and !hare endeavoured, as far as in my power lay neither to
overstate the probable increase of the income nor to under-
state, that which I believe to be the probable expenditure.
Sir, looking to the state of the revenue and of the country,
'believe you may anticipate thlt the increase which has
fa- some years gone on in the revenue will continue—
( Hear.) We have passed through a year of considerable
ddifficulty and financial embarrassment—and when those
Menhirs,' are removed, of course the increase will be
augmented.—( Hoar, bear.) I haste endeavoured not to
impose too heavy hurdens upon the country in new taxa-
tion.; but I felt annviaced that at the present moment it
*mkt, be impossible to place the finances upon a whole-
some ebasis, without increasing our ;vat income.—
('Hear, hear.) I sin well aware that
ohr wtboordsoo,o,
"near are never popular in tbis Hot's
but I have still sufficient calleffdenee ill to e good snentnresywe
believea .tha.t
of the people of this country, not t
./apqn. consideration they will be satisfied
a wiser proceeding is meet this difficuolt/ leaadttie,cititncels,
ttarattempf to stave it off by temporary
, hear)—and at whatever sacrifice of pPopeifirits
tf.shall not regret having striven thus to meet the diffieulty.'
Icy prompt and immediate measures.—( Cheers. In "r_
oluilidn, I willagLetatp that I think it is of importanee
that the resoluWe shOttld be carried as soon as possible,
&a order to put an end to any doubts and hesitations in
vicious branches of trade.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.)
I hire three resolutions to propose. The first relates to
the Customs, the second to the Excise, end the third to
the Assessed The resolution which I now pro-
pose should be put from the chair, is the one relating to
Zee Customs. Tho Right lion. Gentleman, having
banded the resolution to the Speaker, sat down amidst
load cheering from all parts of the House, which lasted
some time. The resolution—which proposed that from
and after the 15th of May, 1840, an additional duty of
per cent. should be levied upon all Custom duties of all
kinds and nature whatever, except that paid upon spirits
and tat paid upon corn ; and that, from and after the
ekeed 15th of May, there shall be raise up an every gallon
dispirits imported into the United Kingdom acs additional
1141tyrojild. gallon—was then put.
UME said, that if- the cheers with which the
Right et. Gentleman had been greeted on taking his seat,
were intended as a mark obfeapprobation of the clear tend
drstinit maims!. in r hieihn
suci!liad made his statement, he
would cordially join
hear
rnlPPrabati?n.( Cheer)
theny
Rfini2haVaHl statements,,
k had been his fete to
and be was not complimenting
than when he said that it never had been his Hon.
(fYo:l4.rtulaee-
to hoar one more clear and explicit, or sniorer
intelligible. Many who had heard that statement IPI not,
I
'one,
folio red the Right Hon. Gentleman as
lee 'one, with pencil and paper in their lid, and as far astbhadet
had fiellowed hires he must do him th justice to say
nothing could be more intelligible thin the statement
which he had made.—( Cheers.) He rmretted extiernely
the necessity which the Right non. Gentleman had felt
f under, of laying en eddisional taxation, at a time
art such great pressure existed; and be could not

;Ir. HUME begged to refer the Hon. Chairman to the
rer ution appointing the Committee of Ways and Means.
The CHAIRMAN read the appointment of the Com-
, mittec to consider " the ways and means of raising the
supply granted to her Majesty."—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME then confidently submitted that his amend.
meet came within the terms of this reference. The Chan-
cellor of the Exchegter proposed one " Ways and Means,"
he proposed another.—.(Hear hear.)
Mr. EWART observed that the very appointment of
the Committee was for the purpose of consulting on what
ar, r.)
d on as to
plan should be adopted. None was
yet decide
moating the public esigencies.—(He hea
Lord J. RUSSELL said he thought the amendment
was not regular in the present Committee. It was far too
(general a proposition.
Mr. WA RB UR ['ON suggested that it should be ren-
dered more precise by wording it, " that the same duties be
levied on the descent of real as personal property."
Mr. G UL B URN strongly objected to Cie amend-
:meta ; nobo:ly could tell under it whether the equalization
will to he by diminution or increase.
Mr. HUME said it was monstrous
l to pretend that no-
body could propose a- new tax in the Committee but the
Chancellor of th,c Exchequer.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. GOULLIURN somewhat angrily denied that he
perhaps the Hon. Member could not un-
meant that,
and a laugh.) So vague a rcso..
derstand him.—(Hear,
~deceiving
lution, however, would be s,audin ,because
buf,
the public.

M. 11U11E would then razice it fair and plain enough
by correcting it, that the sameduty 1);) levied on the de-
scent of real as personal property.
Mr. LANGDALE thought ill fairness the transfer of
bancicd property should ba cc-pally taxed.
Mr. fIUME said, for fifty
ye:.;s past there had hcen in

agree with the proposal which he had made as to the
manner of laying on these taxes. The fault lay, he must
say, with the people, who did not send representatives into
that House who attended to the expenditure of the coun-
try. Frequently, when the estimates were discussed, and
when he had endeavoured in vain to procure reductions in
them, there were not sixty Members attending. He
would appeal to the empty benches which the House exhi-
bited on each of these occasions as a proof of this statement,
wheat not one-fifth of the Members were ever present.
i The Right Hon. Gentleman had, much to his credit,
placed in the hands of Members an account of income and
expenditure for the last five years, thus giving every indi-
vidual an opportunity of ascertaining, without question or
delay, every item of increase or decrease within that period.
It was satisfactory to see that so far as the revenue itself
was concerned there was no deficit. The revenue in
1.36 amounted to 46 millions and a half in round
numbers, while in 1840 it amounted to 47 mil-
lions and nearly three quarters. The House would see
that during those five years no relief of taxation, so far as
the subject was concerned, had taken place, and yet they
found that while in the first year there was a surplus of
2,339,0001., in the last there was a deficiency of 3,316,000/.
owing to the increased expenditure.--(Great confusion
in consequence of Members leaving the House, which
rendered the Hon. Member at times inaudible, and cries
of " Order, order.") That interruption only proved his
statement—that as regarded taxation the House paid no
attention to it. The people should send representatives
to that House who would economise expenditure as well
as make laws. There -.vas no department more impor-
tant for the welfare of the country than that they were
now discussing, and yet they could scarcely hear them-
selves speak. TiitHon. Member had listened to the
statement of the Brat Hon. Gentlemen, and he thought
he detected something like a feeling of satisfaction on
their parts, that the addition proposed to the taxation
was not more than it was.--( Cries of " Hear, hear.")
The necessity for this increase had arisen entirely from
the annual votes of that House. The army and navy, the
ordnance and the miscellaneous estimates, had been in-
creased ; so that while in 1836 and 1837, with a less
revenue, they had a surplus—during the last two years,
with an increased revenue, they had a deficiency. What
had occasioned this ? Why the Gentlemen on his side of
the House had unfortunately listened to the suggestions of
Gentlemen on the other, who had been constantly com-
plaining that neither the army or the navy were in a state
becoming the dignity of the country, and that they were
incompetent to its defence. Unfortunately they had
yielded to these suggestions, and increased the army and
navy, which rendered it necessary to lay on those taxes.
He had warned the House repeatedly of the danger of
driving Canada to desperation. Two millions and a half
had actually been expended in consequence of the acts of
oppression towards that country, and the question
would naturally arise, was Canada worth the money
that was expended in that way ?—( Hear, hear)--
oppression naturally led to other results. The oppressed
might suffer, but that suffering ultimately recoiled on the
oppressor, and we were now paying part of the penalty.
The Noble Lord must recollect that when ha proposed his
resolutions three ago years—resolutions which be con-
sidered the most revolutionary ever pr. posed, he (Mr.
Hume) had said that a day of reckoning would come,
and that day had now arrived, when they were
callel upon to pay two millions and a-half which
had been expended for the military establishments of
the colony.--k Hear, hear, hear.) If the rich had
been called upon to pay he should not object to it, as
they were the proper parties to do it ; and herein he dif-
fered from the Chancellor of the Exchequer's proposal. He
did not complain of the Post-office changes. He considered
them of the greatest value to the country. He thought
that change would fie of greater advantage than any other
redaction of an equal amount that could have been made.
—( Hear, hear.) Although the apparent deficiency was
800,0001. taking the estimate of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, yet he looked forward to a progressive improvement
in that department, when the plan of the original pro-
poser of the measure had been fully carried out. One
part of the plan was, that instead of an increase there
should be a decrease in the number of persons employed
in the Post-office, whereas there had actually been an in-
crease. He would meatier, oac instance. They had been
told that if all letters were pre-paid, one man would deliver
as much as four or eight; yet with all the facilities aff :rded
by pre-payment, a greater number of persons bad
actually been employed.-_( Cries of " Hear, hear.")
Yet, notwitlitanding ail this, he thought the country got
greater relief from that 800,0001. than if it had been
taken off any other article. He diffred with the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer as to the laying on of any new
tax: He thought toe present method ut taxation highly
objectionable, on account of its inequality. It pressed
not on the rich but on the poor and middling classes, and
those who lived by daily labour. Now the Right Hon.
Gentleman, instead of laying taxes on those who were
able to pay, had imposed this addition on the already over-
burdened middle and poorer classes. He would mention
ores item alone—the taxation on property by descent.
There were two Glasser of property—personal and real—
and why the one should b.; taxed beyond the other, Le
could not understand. But as real property belonged
alon2 to the rich, the difficulty was at once solved. The rLh
man excuses himself from all payment, and throws the
whole burthen on the poorer and middle classes ;
and this already unequal taxation it was proposed
to increase by 5 and 10 per cent.,-( Cries of " Hear.")
Mr. Pitt instituted these taxes forty-two yews ago ; and look
to what burthens were shifted from the rich upon the poor
and the middle class since that time I Take the case of
the Duke of Sutherland, who succeeded to an unencum-
bered estate of 200,0001. That property passed to him
from his father with Gut payment of a single farthing, of tax,
whereas one of his own servants could not leave 1501, of
his savings to his son without paing a tax of from one to
ten per cent. He marvelled much that the middle class
and shopkeepers stlio .had the power of sending Members
to Parliament, would send any man to the House of Com-
mons who would not pledge himself to make taxation equal.
Land, inherited by descent, paid nothing ; but the tax
upon other heritable property amounted to 2,000,000/.
But the Chancellor of the. Exchequer instead of equalising
the taxes, was about to odd to the burden of the poor indus-
trial classes. Mr. Pitt brought in two Bills—one fur a
tax upon the inheritance of personal, and the other upon
teat of real property. Both proceeded to the second
reading, when the numbers were equal upon the Real
Property Bill, and Mr. Addington (now Lord Sidmouth)
being in the chair, declined to give his casting vote, on
the ground that it might be better to reconsider the Bill.
In the meantime the country gentlemen waited on Mr.
Pitt, and told him if he pressed the Bill they would op-
pose his Government. Accordingly, the measure was
never again mooted in the House. The other Bill, how-
ever, for taxing property, which was the produce of in-
dustry, passed both Flanges; and in its operation it was
a most unjust measure. It had produced nearly 58
millions sterling since it was established. Why then was
the land to be exempted any longer, whilst new burthens
were to be thrown upon industry ? He asked the Chancellor
of the Exchequer was not such a proceeding sufficient to
increase the discontent of the country ?-....( Hear, hear.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman was adding to the inequality
of the taxation, and was putting a tax upon every article
that came within the reach of a poor man, for it was no-
torious that the taxes upon excised articles were princi-
pally paid by the middle and lower classes, and that the
landlords did not contribute in the proportion of one per
cent. to the taxes. The Right lion. Gentleman only
wanted two millions, and as that was the amount of the
tax on personal property, the .tight lion. Gentleman could
get what he wanted by putting an equal tax upon real
property.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The land had been
exempted for forty years, and surely ought to be so no
longer. It was by the influence of the landlords the ex-
travagance in public expenditure was incurred • but they,
in fact, contrived to make others pay the reckoning. In
the Reform Bill the predominance of the land was main-
tained, and in the new scheme of taxation the Right Hon.
Gentleman looked to the interests of his own class, and
threw the burdens of the State upon the industrious classes.
The Right Hen. Gentleman said that the mode of raising
revenue should be proper and vigorous. Where was the
fitness or the vigour of oppressing the poor man
still further, and letting the rich go free?—( Hear, hear.)
The landlords ought to be compelled to pay their fair
share. Why should not the son pay one per cent. and
ithe stranger ten when they inherited landed property as
well as personal property? Look to what took place in
Fran to in 1789—the people relic against their oppressors,
as had been foretold by those men who saw the danger of
throwing all the burthens on the poor. The landlords
were now following the ruinous career of the French Go-
vernment, and let them look to the consequences. Why
should they not allow the poor man his pot of beer and a
cigar ?—( Laughter. ) He would now move an amendment
to the effect that a duty be laid upon land inherited by
descent. Me had warned the Government not to
'take advice from the opposite side of the House,
but to recollect that their supporters were the middle
classes. Let the Hon. Gentleman bring in a Bill for the
e urpese of imposing the same tax upon real as upon per-
sonal property, and to tax the Corporations and the Church,
and if he should be out-voted let him appeal to the country.
He would then find that no Ministry could stand an hour
against him.--( Cheers.) The Hon. Member concluded
by moving a resolution to the effect " that it is expedien
to equalize the taxes upon real and personal property."
Mr. BE RNA L said that he did not think it was corn.
petent to him in a Committee of Ways and Means to put
a question which implied an opinion that it was expedient
to levy a new tax.

every Loan Act a clause exempting the transfer of funds
from taxation,
Mr. BRISCOE said Lord Althorp had been, from the
sumo reason, compelled to relinquish the plan.
Mr. LANGDALE said that on the point of form he
would withdraw his proposition, the justice of which he
yet maintained.--(Hear.)
Sir R. PRICE said the landed interests were subjected
to heavy charges on the transfer of land, mortgages, &c.
Mr. E WART said much or all of this might be avoided,
by a general system of registration applied to landed pro-
perty, to which, nevertheless, the landed interests ever
opposed themselves.—( Hear, hear.) The amendment of
his Hon. Friend was founded on justice ; and the inequa-
lities of taxation would not now exist, but that the
landed interest possessed the monopoly of one House, and
the predothinance in the other.--( Hear, hear.) The in-
justice of such distinctions between various classes, would
speedily be discovered by the good sense of the people ;
all would find that, by the inevitable decrees of Pro-
vidence, this country must cease to be an agri-
cultural and become a commercial nation.—( Hear. )
He agreed with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that care
ought to be taken that in raising taxes the trade of the
country was extended. But he believed that it was im-
possible to do so. He (Mr. Ewart) was one who thought
the Corn-laws ought to be totally repealed, and therefore
he was not the advocate of raising taxes by an exten-
sion of trade, and by putting a fixed duty ou corn.
If not from corn, at all events.by the reduction and equa-
lization of the timber duties. The Government might
derive a strong reinforcement to its revenues by ex-
tending the commerce of the country.—(Hear, hear.)
By reducing the duty on tea and coffee, and extending
the trade, the revenue might also be increased.—
(Hear.) He should probably on a future occasion
introduce that subject to the attention of the House, but
for the present he would content himself with supporting
the proposition of his Hon. Friend the Member for Kil-
kenny.
Mr. TURNER was opposed to any additional burthens
being thrown upon the people. He was in favour of the
general principles upon which her Majesty's Government
acted, but he should not be doing his duty if he did not
oppose the proposition made by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer.
Colonel SIBTHORP thought the speeches of the
Hon. Member for Kilkenny and the Hon. Member for
Wigan had been directed more against the landed interest
and the abolition of the Corn laws than to the subject
broached by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. For him-
self, he must beg to say that the deficiency mentioned
by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was to be attributed
to the misapplication of the revenue of the country,
such as defraying the expenses of Dr. Bowring, the ex-
penses of the Canada mission, and other Ministerial hum-
bugs.—(Laughter.) He was directly opposed to the 10
per cent. upon the Assessed Taxes. Why did not her
Majesty's Government put a tax upon champagne, or a
tax of 10 per cent. upon the salaries of her Majesty's ser-
vants, or the salaries of all idle and dissolute persons Ike
them.—( Laughter.) When the Report was brought up
he should state more particularly his objections to the
Budget, but at present he would not oppose the motion of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. GO UL BUR N commenced by saying, that how-
ever true it might be that in the multitude of councillors
there was wisdom, that maxim would not hold good with
regard to the multiplicity of Chancellors of the Ex-
chequer,—(A laugh.) They had bad no less than four
Hon. Gentlemen that evening who had favoured the House
with their opinions. The Hon. Member for Wigan (Mr.
Ewart) proposed a reduction of the duty on sugar and
coffee; the Hon. Member for Knaresborough (Mr. Lang-
dale) proposed to meet the exigencies of the public ser-
vice by taxing property in the Funds, in violation of
every Act of Parliament that had been passed ;
then there was the proposition of the Honourable
Member for Kikenny ; and, lastly, they had the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, who, proceeding in the
ordinary course of official business, had communicated to
the House what was the real state of the finances of the
country, and had brought the subject regularly before the
House in the ordinary course of discussion. In alluding
to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he hoped he might
he permitted in the outset to express his entire concur-
rence in the sentiment expressed by the Hon. Member
for Kilkenny, that no statement on the subject of finance
could hose been more clear or more satisfaettay, so far as it
conveyed to the House a distinct view of the present
situation of the fiaances of the country, and the means by
which be proposed to meet the difficulty.—( Hear, hear,
from both sides of the House.) It was not his intent;on
to enter into a discussion of the whole of the conflicting
propositions before the House, and for this reason, that
when he had to discuss a tax, he must know what it was
to produce, cold that the person by whom it was proposed
had a clear idea of the nature of the proposition he made.
The Hon. Member for Kilkenny proposed to extend the
legacy duty to landed property, which, if the Hon. Meal-
her had bad the advantage of looking into the
detailed accounts of the duties at the Stamp
Office, he would never have broached to the House, for the
purpose of realising the amount required. When any
proposition of the kind should be brought before the House
he would be prepared to show the utter want of informa-
tion the lion. Gentleman possessed as to the degree of in-
come that would result to the public from the tax he pro.
posed. He would offer a few observations, and only a few,
upon the propositions of the Chancellor of the Excite-quer. He quite agreed in the sentiment with which the
!sight Hon. Gentlemen concluded his speech, that it was
expedient to meet at once a deficiency of this nature, and
not to stave it off from time to time ; but ho
(Mr. G.) could not but express his regret that the
Government of which the Right Hon. Gntleman the
Chancellor of the Exchequer was so distinguished a
member, should, not have been animated with that feeling
at a somewhat earlier period—that they shoull not have
pet off the consideration of that question , and have staved
oil' the difficulty of,meeting a deficiency of revenue until
the fourth year of its existence, and until it had arisen to
an amount sufficient to alarm all who felt the importance
of not permitting a deficiency of the revenue, as compared
with the expenditure, to exist. If' the Chancellor of the
Exchequer's predecessor had, when the deficiency first oc-
curred, been careful as to the repeal of taxes, or had faken
measures to meet the deficiency in its earlier stages, that
Right Hon. Gentleman, now a Noble Lord, would have
found greater facilities in meeting the difficulties which
arose, and would not have left to his successor the dis-
agreeable task of adding to the burthens of the country to
the extent required on the present occasion. The Hon.
Member for Kilkenny complained of tho expenses to
which the country was put oe account of Canada. He
regretted that they had been involved in great additional
expense on that account, but that had been in a great mea-
sure induced by the Hon. Member himself, who in the
outset had fostered the rebellious spirit in that colony.
The Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had thought it right to make some apology for
presenting an estimate of revenue, and then an estimate of
revenue different from the present, at the request
of his (Mr. Goulborn's) Right Hon. Friends, and amid the
cheers of his party. He had thought proper to animadvert
upon the course taken on that occasion, as imposing very
great difficulty on the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and
lie imprest upon the House that the estimate which he had
now prepared must be much more accurate, because a
quarter of' the financial year having elapsed, his calcula-
tions could be made with much more accuracy. He (Mr.
G.) could not see the strength of the Right lion. Gentle-
man's argument. Theßight Hon. Gentleman was required
on the lath of February to give an estimate of the year
ending on the sth of January following ; thirty-nine days
of the financial year had then elapsed, and the Rt. Hon.
Gentleman had taken till the 29th of March
to make the return. Ho had an opportunity of
consulting all the departments and yet, nevertheless
an estimate was laid on the table, which he now pro-
nounced to be incorrect. What was the difference ?
Forty-one days of the financial year to which the Right
Hon. Gentleman's present statement applied are expired,
and the estimate was presumed to be far more accurate
on account of those two additional days.—(Hear, hear.)
lie did not intend to go into any detail of the probable re-
ceipts and expenditure. There was one point, however,
on which he thought the expectations of the Right Hon.
Gentleman would be disappointed. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman proposed that the expense of the expedition to
China should be brought under the consideration of the
House annually, the Government being the party moving Customs. Excise.
the military affairs, and that they should not stand in the 830 £17,500,000 1830
situation they were in when the war-like operations were 831 16,500,000 1831 £36,000,000
left to the East India Company, she Government making 832 16,700,000 1832
33 32,000,000,000,000
good the expenditure. Tine House knew nothing of the 833
16,208,000 1833
32,000,000
amount of military or naval force required. It was dif. 834 16,402,000 1834 33,000,000
ficult for those not in the secret of the Government ' 835. 20,366,000 1835 33,630,000
to give any correct estimate; but if they were to 836 21,488,000 1836 36,642,000
give any credit to the reports in the public papers, and if 1838 20,846,000 1837 33,954,000
they were to draw any inference from the expense 1832 21,583,000 1838 34,978,000
attending former expeditions to Java and Persia, 1839 35,093,000
he must say that the estimate of 15,0001. was extremely The House would observe that, though these great dimi-
low, and those who were beat acquainted with the mode in notions in the taxes, both in the Customs and Excise, had
which operations were carried on in the eastern hemisphere taken place, yet at the end of ten years the present produce
would say that it was much below what the expenditure of the two branches of the revenue was almost equal to what
would really amount to. The general result of the Right it was in 1830. After reading these statements, be did
Hon. Gentleman's statement was that they had an ex en- net think it necessary to make any further observations.
diture of 49,432,0001,, with an income of 48,591,000/., Mr. WARBURTON said he had expressed a hope
and that a sum of 850,0001, was to be borrowed. It was last year that, when they came to this discussion they would
clear, therefore, that at the end of the year they would go into an examination of the different sources of the re-
have an addition to the debt little short of a million. Now venue, but instead of this, he thought the plan of the
if it turns out that the expenditure was at all under-esti_ Chancellor of the Exchequer seemed to be to produce
mated, or that the addition to the taxes would not be so a Budget that would pass easily
through the House
productive as had been calculated at the close of the
year, rather than one that would be advantageous to the country.
they wotad be in the situation they had been for
some Some points had been already noticed by those who had
years past, namely, that of congratulating themselves rather preceded him. He could not commend a system of taxa-
because the deficiency was less than they expected, than tion, which, when an increase was proposed, omitted from
that they made the expenditure equal to the revenue. one essential part of it, viz, the Assessed Taxes, one of
He was prepared, however. to vote fertile resolution, being the three kingdoms.—( Hear, hear.)
The Assessed Taxes
satisfied that some provision must 'be made for the for Ireland were altogether exempted, which he did not
deficiency, and that these taxes should have the authority think a legitimate exemption.—( Hear, hear.) The Right
of the House of Commons as soon as possible, to prevent lion. Gentleman (Mr. Labouchere), speaking of the
any undue advantage being taken of the proposition of the addition of 5 per cent. on the article of tobacco, admitted
Government. He bad some doubts with respect to the there was already a duty of 1,200 per cent. upon the ar-
general views of the Right Hon. Gentleman. It was pro- title, and used the argument, if there is 1,200 per cent.,
posed that generally on the Customs and Excise there should why not 5 per cent. more ? He joined in the wish of the
be an addition of 5 per cent., and that amount was calculated Hon. Member for Wigan, that in this great department
by ridding one twentieth to the existing revenue. Now he of the Customsrevenue, they should really go into an invcs-
(Mr. Goulburn) entertained very considerable doubts, tigation, and see whether a less amount and a different
whether on some of the articles the addition of 5 per cent, apportionment of duty would not really produce a larger
would not make a very considerable diminution in the revenue. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had used an
consumption, He would take the article of tobacco of I argument which might be used against him with regard to
1
which a large quantity was exported; he felt apprehensive I the duty on corn. lie said it was imposed, not for re-
that an addition of five per cent. would only occasion a con- venue, but for the protection of a class;
siderable adulteration of the article, without adding to the only article of this kind? He would just mention that
revenue. He doubted also whether the Right lion. Gen- against which he had so long and so frilitlCSS!y. COM-
but was that the
tleman had made allowance for the effect which the war ' plained—the differential duty on timber. —( Hear,
abi.easr;e)
i
with China would produce in the consumption of the very 1 The effect of this argument on that wou'd be, t,
would be
wtaokuelidi phlaavcce,thaendefftheect porficae
important article of tea. A consierable rise bad latel , per cent, on .555., the duty on Baltic timber,
would
before.
There diminutionmighty
o ti'n increase, which
consumption.
e.
There would be also a great inequality in tile general duty Lie entirely approved of the amendment of. Hon.
1 2s. 9d., and on Canada timber, which is 103., would be
I 6d., thus making the deficiency much wider thennris
of 4i!. a gallon imposed on all kinds of spirits, On brandy ; Friend, and he hoped the attention of the working classes
would be excited against
the addition would be only 11 per cent., en Rum it would I would be called to this subject, and that as strong a feels
he 4 per cent., on British spirits 5 per cent., on leg
Scotch 10 per cent., and on Irish spirits is per duties as on the subject of corn ; and if such were the
cent., and he very much doubted whether the case, he had no doubt they would succeed in obtaining the
legacy and probate
same effect might not be produced in Ireland and Scotland repeal of each.
as had been produced in 1830, when he ( Mr. Goulburn) ' Sir R. PEEL said the Hon. Gentleman who had just
imposed au additional duty on Irish and Scotch spirits, sat down, did not appear to entertain a very favourable no-
which only Increased the illicit distillation, without adding don of the Reformed House of Commons, for he thought

in the revenue. With respect to the assessed taxes, he had
very little doubt that these taxes would bear the additional
duty ; but when he coupled with that a new survey of the
windows, the Right Hon. Gentleman must see that he
imposes a much heavier burden, which would operate pe-
culiarly on the dwellings of the humbler classes. Many
of those had opened additional windows, which had been
previously exempted from duty, and these would all
be included in the new survey. (Hear, hear.)
He certainly could not but express his satisfaction
that the moment had arrived when he trusted the House
was prepared to look fairly at the state of its finances,
and to make provision for equalizing their income with the
increased expenditure. He felt it was a duty they owed
themselves and the country, to make an effort to discharge
their obligations, and not leave them to their successors to
pay. There was an opinion generally prevalent in other
countries, that so long as the finances of England
are in A sound state, she might defy the world,
but if her financial system were once broken down,
then the glory of England was set, and her power
and influence on the Continent put an end to.
Many of the meat respectable and best-thinking men on
the Continent thought we, were allowing uur income to
fall short of our expenditure, and that England might be
insulted with impunity. He never entertained any opinion
but that this country had the power of providing for the
ordinary expenditure, and also providing for that extraor-
dinrry expenditure for which in every country some pre-
paration must be made. So far, therefore, the proposition
of the Right Hon. Gentleman met with his support.
Mr. L ABO UC HE RE entirely agreed with the Right
Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, that it afforded
great satisfaction to all who regarded the permanent
althoughntr considerable difference of
progress interests
debate,
3rl to observe that in the
opinion existed as to the. means which it might be expe-
dient to resort to to provide for the diminished income, yet
at the same time every Hon. Gentleman who addressed the
House was ready to. assert
.it was the bounden duty to
enbanten,n
look at the situation in
.which they were placed, and pro-
vide the means for placing the finances of the country in
that position in which they ought to stand. He thought
the general accordance of opinion on this point afforded
the best grounds of satisfaction. He should not feel it
his duty to enter into details with regard to the subject to
be discussed to-night, as he should have a future opportu-
nity of doing so. At the same time he would make a few
observations on what had fallen from the Gentlemen
who preceded him. In the first place he could not but
think it singularly infelicitous in the Hon. Member for
Kilkenny to take this occasion of saying that the state-
ment and proposals of his Right Hon. Friend exhibited
an unfair desire to lay the burthen of taxation on the bum-
bler classes of the community, and to spare the more sills
ent. He thought that anybody who looked at the taxes
his Right Hon. Friend proposed, and considered the largo
additional amount ho proposed to lay upon the assessed
taxes, and the effect of an increase of the window tax,
would see that by far the most consideeable portion of the
increased burthen would be imposed on the richer classes
of the community ; nor could he agree with the Hon.
Member for Wigan, when he stated that the proposal of his
Right Hon. Friend would have an injurious effect on
the commercial interest of the country. He was riot
about to enter into a controversy with the Hon. Gentle-
man on the important points raised in this discussion as to
the expediency of reducing the duties on coffee, sugar, and
other articles of colonial produce. He did not mean to
say that strong and cogent arguments might not be urged
in favour of a course of that description, but at the same
time he need not observe the many difficulties with which
the subject was surrounded, and his Hon. Friend seemed
sensible of them, for he took care to guard himself against
being supposed to make a distinction between slave-grown
and free-grown sugar. He must say, es a financial and
commercial proposition, he thought it difficult to establish
that they would not by this do an injury to the grower; but as
his Hon. Friend admitted this subject had better be left for
a separate discussion, he would nut follow him farther upon
it. The Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down
stated that he thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer
complained of the difficulties in which he was placed with
respect to the estimates he was about to lay upon the
table, in consequence of the motion which had been made
by the Hon. Member for Warwick. He (Mr. Labouchere)
remembered a declaration not long ago of the Right Hon.
Member for Pembroke (Sir J. Graham) who while enume-
rating the defeats of the Government, and stating the rea-
sons e. by he thought they could not, with due regard to their
own character, retain office, after those defeats, took care
to remind the House of their defeat on that occasion, and
saying that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was placed
in a situation in which none of his predecessors had been
ever placed, and endeavoured to draw the House to a con-
clusion that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, being placed
in so embarrassing a situation, was a proof that he did not
possess the confidence of the House.—( Hear, hear.)
Taut was a little true, but the argument should be applied
to both sides of the question, for they were told
at one time when the Government were asked to agree to
this, that the proposal was so reasonable they ought not
to oppose it ; but when they thought they had placed the
Government in an embarrassing position, and had induced
some Hon. Members to forsake them, then they turned
run and slid, " Now we have inflicted a stigma upon you,
and placed you in a situation of diculty, and hold up the
Chancellor of the Exchequer as a man not trusted by the
House, and call upon the Government to resign
upon the vote come to by the House of Com-
mons." This was not fair on a class of sub-
jects which ought to be drawn away from the
usual topics of pnrty discussion, he meant
questions of finance. He must also express his satisfaction
at the general tone of the Right Hon. Gentleman, who,
although he had expressed doubts upon the plan of his
Right Hon. Friend, had, he thought, an impression upon
his mind favourable to it, that there was no better
way of meeting the deficiencies than by the proposition
which had been made. The Right Hon. Gentleman
stated, however, there were certain points on which the
proposal of his Right Hon. Friend to increase import du-
ties 5 per cent., would produce a detrimental effect, and he
(Mr. Labouchere) heard with some surprise the Right
Hon. Gentleman quote the article of tobacco, of which
we received the greatest amount of duty, as one that would
be eo affected by it. Now when they remembered the pre-
sent duty of tobacco amounted to 1,200 per cent. he thought
it impossible to conceive the addition of so trifling a sum
as
5 per cent. would make any material difference in the
consumption. He would also remind tile House, that it
was not unimportant to consider, when discussing the pro-
bable effect of a certain increase of duty on our imports,
especially on Customs duties, what had been the course
with regard to these during the last few years. If the
House would take the last ten years, they would find
that a great reduction had taken place, not only on general
taxation, but also on the Excise. He would remind the
House in a few words what had actually taken place in
this respect. He found that since the year 1830 the gross
amount of reduction on Customs duties was 2,163,0004,
the additional duties imposed 656,0001, leaving the amount
of duty repealed 1,507,0001. With regard to Excise duties,
there had been repealed during the same time 4,656,000/.
There had been imposed 181,000/, leaving the total
amount repealed 4,475,0004 He found on the Stamp
duties there had been repealed 587,0001., imposed
21,0001., leaving a net repeal of 566,0004 On taxes
there had been a repeal of 1,740;0001., imposed 1,0701.,
leaving a net repeal of 1,73:4,9304 On this branch,
therefore, there had been repealed 6,284,000/, during the
last ten years, to which must be added 1,000,0004 for
postage. He thought the House would perceive, there-
fore, that though proposing to lay fresh ‘irthens on the
country, during the last ten years, not only, in fact, has a
great diminution taken place, but that on those taxes
which bore on the commerce of the country, viz. the Ex-
cise and Customs, there had been a great diminution.
There was another point to which he thought it material
to call attention upon this occasion—he had already
stated how many Custom duties had been repealed, and
how large an amount of revenue was derived from them,
but was it the case the revenue had diminished upon
this system ? On the contrary, nothing proved
more conclusively the energy and industry of the
commerce of this country, than to see that although they
had had the good fortune to propose this diminution, how
the Customs revenue had kept up during the operation of
this system. He would now read to the House the net
receipts of the Customs and Excise duties during the same
apace of time:—

-
the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) had produced a Budget rather with a view of
meeting the concurrence of the House of Commons, than
for the advantage of the country. This was the result of
all the labours of the Hon. Gentleman in favour of a Re-
formed House of Commons—(Hear)—that he thought the
House of Commons so little represented the opinions of
the country, and felt so little interest in its prosperity,
that when the Budget was proposed, it was proposed ra-
ther with a view to passing through the House, than for
the promotion of that interest, thereby implying that the
opinion of the House of Commons and the welfare of the
country were entirely opposite.—( Hear, hear.) He ap.
prehended the discussion of to-night was not on the details
of the proposal made, but whether, there being a defi-
ciency in the revenue, they should resort to the miserable
expedient of meeting that by imposing fresh duties, or
making an effort for equalising the revenue with the ex-
penditure. He had no doubt, nor did he hesitate to declare
in favour of the principle recommended by 'the Right
Honourable Gentleman. He thought nothing was
more discreditable, after a complete proof that the deficiency
was not temporary, than to think of shifting the burdens
which properly belonged to you after twenty-five years of
general peace, and refusing to look these difficulties fairly
in the face, and make some effort to equalize the expendi-
ture and the income ; and therefore he said, if the Hon.
Gentleman had resorted to any such experiment, and asked
for a vote of credit for the amount of the whole deficiency,
whether such a vote would have been popular or not he
(Sir R. P.) should have wholly disregarded, and have given
it his most strenuous opposition. He thought it right
to propose in the present year an increase in the taxation
of the country to meet the deficiency, and he must say he
thought, on the whole, the slight addition to the present
amount of taxation, without imposing novel taxes, was the
best course the Hon. Gentleman could adopt; because, if
he had imposed new taxes, he thought there would be a
ranch greater disturbance of capital than by making a
small addition to those which already existed.—( Hear.)
And in the second place the plan is a good one, because
there will be no necessity for any large increase of the es-
tablishment such as would have been necessary had they
revived the tax upon salt or leather. Upon the whole
he thought the plan was a good one, and he preferred
it to either a small property tax or reviving others. At
the same time it was impossible to look at the state of our
finances without great mortification. On looking at the
expenditure of the last five years, they found a gradual
and very rapid increase ; in 1836 the expenditure, apart
from the payment of the charge of the debt, was fourteen
millions ; in 1837 it was 14,400,000/. ; 1838 15,392,0001.;
in 1839 it had risen to 16,452,000/. ; and in 1840 it rose to
17,100,0001., that was certainly very unsatisfactory, but
it was more so when they took a view of the revenue for
the same period; there was nothing consolatory there; in
1836 thev hada surplus of 1,376,0001; to 1837 there was a
surplus of 1,862,000/., but in the next year there appeared
to have been a very great turn in the affairs; the surplus
was turned into a deficiency, which, in 1838, amounted to
428,0001. ; in 1239 it was 430,000/., but in 1840 it had
risen to 1,427,0004, so that the revenue had
been gradually and rapidly decreasing, while the
expenditure was as steadily increasing, The deficiency,
however—the permanent deficiency—was now 2,236,0001.,
the actual deficiency upon the year was 2,800 000/ ; but
the Right Hon. Gentleman deducted 500,000/. from that
sum, as he did not calculate that Canada and China would
remain a permanent charge, even allowing that there
was still a deficiency of 2,300,000/. Now what prospect
was there that there would be no recurrence of such charges?
—( Hear. I He supposed that the charge for Naples would
this year be very small, but he was afraid that in the pre-
sent unsettled state of the world, and of our relations with
many countries, we ought to prepare for a recurrence of
the charges imposed upon us by Canada and China.
There was still an absolute deficiency of 2,300,0001., and
that but a deficiency for the present year ; only he could
not resist the conclusion that the time had at length come
that we ought to look for some more honest and ho-
nourable expedient than bolstering up:our finances by loan.
After twenty-eight years of peace, it would be most unjust
that we should burden our posterity with the expenses
which our imprudence had brought upon the country, as
probably they might not be blessed as we had been with
peace for so long a period. The miserable expedient of
resorting to Exchequer Bills to cover the deficiency, or the
raising of leans at such a period, wouli be extremely unjust.
But that must be the consequence, unless they met the
case manfully and fairly by increased taxation on them-
selves. He did not think that the President of the Board
of Trade had said much in favour of his colleague, the
Chancellor of the Exchequer. It was a novel proposi-
tion to hear from the school to which he belonged, that
because an article was taxed to a great amount, therefore
it might be safely iecrea.ed —(A laugh.) The remainder
of his speech only went to show that the reduction of
Customs duties upon an article increased its consumption,
and the revenue derived from it. Yet that was a speech
wade in favour of increasing taxation upon all articles
liable to duty. Still, in spite of those areutnents he was
favourable to the proposition of the Right Hon. the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer. He wished, however, that he
had made some exception in favour of the raw materials
of our manufactures.—(Cheers.) He knew the difficulty
attending such a course, but he was rather surprised when
he found that the duty on raw cotton was to be increased.
( Hear, hear.) No doubt breaking through the principle
might be very inconvenient, it might lead to numerous
applications of the same rule, and might lead to
an insufficiency of resources to meet the expenditure ;
and be thought there was such an oveibearing necessity
to maintain the public faith, that ho thought the Right
Hon. Gentleman was perfectly right in adhering to his
principle if he entertained any fear that it would break
through his plan. He might take it that one-half of the
present deficit arose from the reduction of the postage.—
(Loud Tory cheers.) He took that from the statement of
Right Hon. Gentleman. 530,000/, was the revenue
which the Chancellor of the Exchequer estimated from
the Post-office. Did that include 64,000/. for the Foreign.
office ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—That
was entirely left out,
Sir ROBERT PEEL—Still he might very fairly
estimate that one-half the deficiency arose from the Post-
office. Ho knew all the disadvantages of reviving such a
tax ; but if the Chancellor of the Exchequer had come down
and said, " I find myself deficient 1,100,0001. from the
Post-office, and 1,100,000/. from other sources, and in
place of increasing the tax upon raw cotton, I shall pro-
pose a general rate of 3d. per letter," he doubted that
although that plan might not have met the general con-
currence of the country, still, upon reflection, he
thought it would have been more to the benefit
of the country. From some ominous words which had fallen
from the Right Hon. Gentleman, he was led to believe
that some domestic jars had occurred in the honeymoon of
the Post-office.—(A laugh.) He believed that within the
last few weeks there had been a considerable falling off in
the revenue of the Post-office. He believed he was deist.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—There
have been fewer letters.
Sir ROBERT PEEL—It did not require the talents
of a Chancellor of the Exchequer to find out that if there
were fewer letters there would be fewer pence. He was
sorry that such should be the case, for though he might
have been consistent in opposing the original plan, he had
given his consent to a fair trial; but if the Chancellor of
the Exchequer had proposed a general rate of 3d. he
would have supported him, although he himself would not
make such a proposition. With respect to 10 per cent.
increase on the assessed taxes, he would not oppose it.
some wished to have an increase of 30 or 40 per cent. on
those taxes. It might be very fair if they could oblige
men to keep up their establishments, but when they could
go to another country to live, the taxation might be
pressed to too great a limit, though he did not think that
applied to the 10 per cent. The Hon. Member for Brid-
port, the leader of a large party in that House, complained
that this was a tax put upon England, which did not ex-
tend to Ireland. Now, considering whence the Right
Hon. Gentlemen obtained his support, without under-rating
his public virtue, it would have been too much to have
expected him to come down and say " Here is a tax upon
England from which Ireland is free, lam about to pro-
pose an addition of 10 per cent., but in justice
to both countries I think both the tax and the
addition ought to be extended to Ireland"—consider-
ing the source of his support, it would have been
too much to have expected such a proposition from him.
—( Laughter.) But after all, he (Sir R. Peel) was willing
to place this additional burden upon England, and let
Ireland escape. The Hon. Member for Bridport and his
friends would have an opportunity of making the proposi-
tion, but if it had come from him (Sir R. Peel) or his
party then it would have been said, " We shall now see who
are the real friends of Ireland." The Right Hon. Gentle-
man had praised the elasticity of the commerce of Eng-
land. In all that had been said respecting that
he fully concurred, and he would hereafter
take the liberty of calling his attention to
that fact, that that elasticity had been shown under the
existing Corn-laws. There was a true economy in main-
taining public credit. Look at the amount of debt on
which they paid 3 par cent. Look at the satisfactory
source of saving which would arise from such a state of
public credit as should enable them to reduce the interest
of that debt to 3 per cent., and thus save millions. He
entreated them always to bear in mind that the result of
some increase of taxation might bring about so satisfac-
tory a state of public credit as might enable:them so to re-
duce the publie burdens as to lay the foundations of real
and pernTinent reductions, consistent with the honour and
dignity of the country, and thus dispenee with future taxa.

Mr. WARBURTON would not again have troubled
the House if the Right Hon. Baronet had not suggested
tan increase in the rates of postage. He had not ventured
o propose a return to the old rates—(Cheers)—bat he
had suggested to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that
he should (ripple the present rates. The Revenue at
present derived from the postage was 60 per cent, upon the
expenditure. Surely that was profit enough ; but the
Right Hon. Baronet was not content with a profit of 60
per cent. But the question was not of Revenue—it stood
upon much higher grounds—it was a question that con-
cerned the comfort of the people.-4 Cheers.) It was de-
grading the question to consider it merely as a question
of revenue.—(Loud cheers.) On the reduction of
,the
rates on General Post letters from an average of 7d. to
one of Id., the increase of the number of letters had been
in the ratio of 26 to 10, an increase of 160 per cent., and
yet the Right Hon, Gentleman was not satisfied
with these profits. lie
was not satisfied with 60 per
cent., but wish, .1 to go beyond. He hoped that no.
thing would induce the Chancellor of the Exchequer or
the Government to depart from the boon which th3y had
given to the peorle. They were only now at the corn-
inencement of the experiment. The stamps had only
been introduced within a few days. He was perfectly
satisfied with the increase which had already taken place.
He had never anticipated the realization of the former
revenue under a period of three or four years, and he was
satisfied from the increase which had already taken place
that within that period the deficiency in the Post-office
revenue would be more than made up.
Mr. GILLON considered that ever since the change
which had taken place in the monetary system, in 1819,
the funclholder had been revelling in the distress of the
other classes, and that it would be abmurd to suppose that
peoFle could derive any bonfit from the reduction of tax-

ation until the amount of the debt were reduced. Taxa-
tion ought to be so shaped as to fall on the fundholder,
and make him pay his share. He hoped the Hon. Mem-
ber for Knareaborough would press his proposition on
the attention of the House. The Hon. Member
for Cambridge had attacked his Hon. Friend the
Member for Kilkenny on the Canada question, and had
said that the troubles in that country had been owing in
a great measure to his Right Hon. Friend. Nothing
could be further from the fact. The fact was, we had
broken faith with our colonial subjects. With regard to
the diminution proposed by the Right Hon. Gentlemen on
carriages, he considered that it gave the smallest possible
relief to the poorer classes of the country. It was so very
partial that, without meaning to say anything unpleasant
to the Right Hon. Gentleman, he must say that the boon
was not worth accepting. He thought the persons ag-
grieved by this tax would come before the House another
year with a better chance of obtaining a repeal of the
whole duty on carriages kept for hire. The persons en-
gaged in keeping these carriages were paying a high duty,
while railways and steam-boats were not burdened with any
duty at all.
Sir G. CLERK would not have troubled the House
at any length, after what had fallen from his Right Hon.
Friends the Members for Tamworth and Cambridge, had
it not been that the other night the Hon. Gentleman had
obtained the appointment of a Committee to consider the
whole subject of the import duties of the country.
Now, as all the calculations of the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had been made upon the assumption, that the
whole of the import duties would remain as they did at
present, he should advise the Hon. Member to move that
the order for that Committee be discharged, as it would
relieve them from a very irksome, and, as it now turned
out, a very unprofitable duty, He thought the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer w,.s wrong on both sides of the ac-
coun—that he under-eattimated the expenditure, and over.
estimated the income. He thought that the estimate laid
on the table in March last, was more to be relied on than
that of tonight.—( Hear, hear.) There was an error in
the ordinary expenditure of the country, on which he
begged to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman for an explana-
tion. The vote for the Navy expenses last year was
5,172,0001., but the actual expenditure was 5,472,000/.
Now, he wished to know out of what fund the deficiency
of 300,0001. had been made good, It appeared to
him that the Navy Board must have anticipated
that sum out of the grant for the present year,
in which case, before the Ist day of April,
the Right Hon. Gentleman would be obliged to ask for a
vote of credit of that amount, for there was not the slightest
chance, in the present state of our foreign relations, that
there would be any reduction of the expenses of the navy
in the current year. If his calculations of the other parts
of the expenditure were correct, there would be a defi-
ciency of 600,0001. besides that sum, making in all a defi-
ciency of 900,0001., instead of 800/., which was the
estimate of the Right Hon. Gentleman. He again begged
for an explanation.
Mr. BRISCOE concurred entirely in the principle of
the resolution moved by the Hon. Member for Kilkenny.
It was Isis opinion that property was taxed too little and
industry too much.—(Cheers.) And so far was he from
complaining of the amount of taxation proposed, that he
thought it was not enough..—(Hear, hear.) He thought
there ought to be a large surplus—he did not think
that four or five millions would be too much.—(Cheers
from the Opposition.) There ought to be an ample pro-
vision to meet the payment of the interest of the debt in
case of an emergency, and to enable the country at all
times to hold its place amanget nations.—( Cheers.) He
thought the House ought to look the difficulties of our
financial situation boldly ill the face.--( Haar, hear.) As
this moment we were in a state of difficulty, and we were
going to meet it by the issue of Exchequer bills to the
amount of 800,000/. or 900,000/.—( Hear, hear.) That
was not a state in which this nation ought to be placed.—
( Hear, hear.) It was a state in which no private indi-
vidual ought to place his affairs.—( Hear, hear.) As a
person possessing some property, he must say he felt that
he did not pay as much towards the taxation of the country
as he ought to pay in proportion to the burthens of the in-
dustrious classes. There were two things to which he objected
in the scheme of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
These were the increase of the taxes upon cotton and
wool. He represented a manufacturing district, in which
there was at present a great dearth of employment, and the
distress would be increased by any farther tax upon the
raw material. He hoped those articles would be exempted
from the additional impost of 5 per cent. He also ob-
jected to the tax upon windows as detrimental to the
health and comfort of the people. Ila thought the House
ought to look more boldly at the state of the finances,
and lay on a tax upon property, and make a large and
permanent provision for meeting the interest of the debt,
so as on all occasions to maintain the character and credit
of the country.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. DARBY agreed with his Right Hon. Friend the
Member for Tamworth, in regretting that the Post-office
duties ought not have been increased, He thought it
ought to have been raised from Id. to 2d. per letter.--
(Hear, hear.) With respect to the duty on cotton, he
agreed with the Hon. Member for Westbury that it would
be better not to impose it on that article. He also hoped
that hops would be exempted from the increase of duty.
In Sussex a great part of the agricultural population was
employed in the cultivation of hops, to which the duty of
2d. per lb. was a considerable check. That duty had for
some time been paid out of the capital of the grower.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that as the statement of
his Right Hon. Friend had been met so fairly by the
House, and as the opinion of the House had been so
strongly expressed in favour of the propositions, he would
not take up the time of the Committee at any length. The
Right Honourable Baronet, the Member for Tam-
worth, had stated directly what was stated in sub-
stance by other Honourable Members, that he agreed
in the proposition that it was now the time to meet the
deficiences of the revenue by taxation, and not by loans.
And, secondly, that, as to the mode of taxation, he thought
it advisable, both for the sake of not increasing the estab
lishments, and of avoiding interference with industry....
to increase the existing taxes. Ha (Lord John Russell)
trusted that his Right Hon. Friend would be contented
with the general support which he had met with, and
would not endeavour to conciliate those on both sides of
the House who desired the exemption of particular articles.
It had been proposed by the Hon. Member for Westbury,
to exempt cotton and wool, and the gentleman who had
just sat down, proposed to exempt hops. If his Right
Hon. Friend consented to exclude those articles from his
scheme, he would find on Monday that gentleman
would come down and claim the exemption of eight
or ten other articles. A great many gentlemen would imi-
tate those who called for particular exemption, although
most probably not one would imitate the example of the
Hon. Member for Westbury, who stated that he was not
adequately taxed, and that he considered it a reproach upon
his conscience, that he did not pay enough.—( Laughter.)
He hoped, therefore, that his Right Hon. Friend would
adhere to his proposition. His Hon. Friend (Mr. Briscoe)
was of opinion, and it seemed to be concurred in by the
other side, that the increase of taxation was not sufficient,
but that there ought to be an increase sufficient to cover
the whole deficiency. He (Lord J. R.) thought with his
Right Hon. Friend, that it was a legitimate mode of meeting
a casual deficiency, to do so by means of a loan, rather than
by a tax, which might not be required for more than
two or three years, besides that the imposition of a new
tax was likely to interfere with some department of indus-
try. Before the French Revolution a Bill had been passed
for laying by a considerable sum for a sinking fund, and
when an increased expenditure was required by the expe-
dition to the Northern Sound, Mr. Pitt thought it better
to meet the emergency by a loan, rather than encroach
upon the Sinking Fund or have recourse to a new tax.
The Sinking Fund was afterwards found to be fallacious.
But the precedent to which he referred was in
favour of his Right Honourable Friend's proposition.
He should say that the country was better after it had in-
creased in wealth by diminished taxation, than had they
kept up the taxation and paid off certain portions of the
debts. Such had been the course pursued during the
last five years, and the excess of expenditure over income
had only been 77,0004 They were now about to raise
two millions by increased taxation, and they would place
themselves in a situation to pay all the expense of the
country without borrowing. With regard to the Post-
office, he did not at all look upon that as a question of
mere revenue. He certainly heartily concurred in that
measure ; but he had no strong belief in the calculations
made that we should get back the amount of revenue by
the increase of letters. No doubt in time there would be
an increase of revenue, but it would be very
small, and would not produce one million of re-
venue for some years to come. But if the Post-
office revenue should produce only 500,000/, lie
should not in the least regret his concurrence in that mea-
,,ure.—( Loud cheers.) He concurred in it as a mea-
sure which would give persons of a middling means, and
even poor persons, the means of corresponding. He felt
no disappointment with respect to the measure, and he
would he quite ready to repeat his vote of last year.
He trusted that the Hon. Member for Kilkenny having
seated his views, and made his proposition, would not
think it necessary to bring them to a vote upon it.
Mr. GROTE would certainly support the proposition
of his Hon. Friend the Member for Kilkenny, for he
thought it was the proper manner in which they ought to
raise their revenue. He was sorry that the Right Hon.
Gentleman had not thought proper to take off or reduce
the Stamp Duty upon Marine Insurances, for its effect
was to drive that business to foreign countries, and press
very hard upon the poorer shipowner; again it acted as a
burden upon imported goods, so that if a small increase
was made to the Customs duties, that tax might be done
away with very great benefit. He threw that out for
the consideration of the Right Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. VILLIERS said all that had taken place in the
debate showed that the time was come when
we ought to come to a commutation of our taxes;
therefore he was happy that his Honourable Friend
had cal led the attention of the House to the
subject, although only in a partial way—it must soon force
itself upon the attention of the House. Ile would sup
port his Hon. Friend if he went to a division. They
ought to consider by what means they could increase the
powers of consumption in the country. The present
mode of taxation tended to limit consumption. lie could
not but think that the congratulation of the Right Hon.
Baronet, and his giving his support to the present system.
of Corn-laws was somewhat ill-placed. Was not the
country in a state of suffering, and was not that suffering
to be traced to the Corn Laws ?—( Hear, hear.) All
the House cared for was to raise a large revenue
—they cared not at what cost of suffsr:ng that revenue.
was raised, if it was raised,
Sir R. PEEL did not say that the Corn-laws had
raised a large revenue, and that, therefore, they ought to
be continued. He had merely alluded to what had fallen
from the Right Hon. President of the Board of Trade re-
lative to the buoyancy and expansiveness of national
prosperity, and he had merely said this prosperity and in-
creased consumption had taken place concurrently withprotection to agriculture, and he had, therefore, asked
if
it was prudent to do away with that protection.
Mr. MUNTZ should not on this occasion support the
Ministry. This was the time for the upper classesr
, to
show they had the good of the country at. heart. !_
House would be doing their duty to the people if, instead
of increasing the burdens which the people were hardly

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—BritTrs.
of Lind
On the 12th inst., the lady of u
H. Williams, Esq.,
field House, Sussex, of a son.
On the 12th inst., at Plymouth, the wife of Dr. Torsikrs'
of Norton-street, Fitzroy-square, of a daughter..
On the 13th inst., Mrs. Miguel Yglesias, of Camden-street,
Camden-town, of a daughter.

MARR.
On the 14th inst., at St. Lukel ED
's, Chelsea, T. Hill, Esq., !"f
North Brixton, to Harriot Mackay eldest daughter of Captain
11I'Leod, of the Royal Hospital, Chelsea.
On the 11th of March, at Bombay, Captain J. Davies, of the
Bombay Army, fourth son of the late S. Davies, of the Elm:,
Epsom, Esq., to Sarah Ann Elizabeth, second daughter of
Ilarrison, Esq., R.N., late of Upmarden.
On the lith inst., at Kingston-on-Thames, Mr. E. Pam-
philers, of the Strand, to Miss S. Brown, youngest grand-
daughter of the late M. R. Wheatley, of Epsom, and niece of
Mrs. Fuller, of Kingston.

DIRD.
On the 1-Ith inst., at Lyncroft House, Lichfield, Anna Maria,
wife of the Rev. H. G. Lonsdale, and daughter a the late T. F.
Heywood, Esq.
On the Bth inst., H. D. Stephens, Esq., Fellow of New
College, Oxford, and student-at-law of the Inner Temple.
On the 11th inst., at Upwey, Mary Charlotte, only (laughter
of N. J. Trowbridge, Esq., of Weymouth, aged 21.
On the 12th inst., at Holloway, Catherine, the wife of Chris—
topher Gabriel, a:;cd 68.
On the 9th of March!, at Calcutta, F. Ilathie, Esq„ son. of
the late Rev. Ur. Ilathie, of Hammersmith.

London: Printed and Published by MITIIDO YOUNG, of
No. 112, Strand, at The Sun Office, No. 112, Strand in the
county of 3litldluex. Saturday, May 16, 1640.