The Sun.
London, England, 1841-03-23 00:00:00

EVEN LNG EDITION.

• that he would not ask the House to take it into their
consideration this evening, as sufficient -motives might
not baveheen given on the matter. What he proposed to
de with the Pcor-law Bill was to tshe immediately the
clauses wish regard to the • duration of the Commis-
sioner and the issuing of the general rialcs. But
as ho found that a great numbe:r: of amend-
ments bad been proposed which .weekl require
`much tieue and. consideration, and in- telileh• he felt it
desirable that he should have further communication
with,these who were entrusted with the adminitlration of
tl.:e law, he would propose that they should go on with
the bill on Friday, when be would Le able to state
whether there were any of these amendments
which he could be prepared either to introduce
h:inself, or to support when brought forward
by other Hon. Members. He would afterwards move
that next week, on Monday and the succeeding da)s
the Howe should consider the 13i11 in Cornmiitee from
day to day.. He hoped that course would -not le in-
convenient to the House ; and he • certainly .did not
wish to prex's on to-night any Bill to which it could be
objected that due notice had not lue:n given on the
subject..

S;r ROBERT PEEL said t'lat it appe Ire(' to him
that if the Noble Lord did not intiknate to the House
tint 1 Friday which of aincniknews he was inclined
to &low-, they would Le phi° to make but very little
progress with the Bill on that day. He thought the
Noble Lord sh,:uld at as early a period as possible, ex-
plain his mctenti'ns ur.:on the matter.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he hoped he
should be able on Wednesday to state the course
be would take respecting the He might
take that opportunhy of mentioning, with respect to the
Inotioa of an Honourable Member regarding the co-
lopy.of Newfoundland, that if the Honourable Mem-
ber wished t) have ,a Committee, the information
which he might desire was not completely rcady ; but
he (Lord J. Russell) expected further inforrna'ion at an
early peric.d. Still he should not object to the Com-
rtige ; if the Hon. Gentleman merely :Wed his inten-
tions with respect to the motion. He should oletve
fiat he bel:evA there was at present no other notice of
any consequence on the papers.
M. GOULBURN inquired whea it wa; pre.
poscd to proceed with the resolutions proposed by the
light lion. Pr silent of the Beard of Trade. Th‘ey
ttood in the paper for Friday, but be supposed they
would not coma or.

Lord J. R USSELL said the further consideration of
them wouki to postponed HI Monday so'onight.
CONSOLIDATED FUND BILL.
03 the motion of the NOBLE Lone. the House re-
solv, d irr,elf into Committee on the Consolidated Fund
(8,000,0301.) Bill—Mr. BERNAL in tLe Chair.
Toe CIIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
the thu. M .mhcr for Statnford had on a former evening
asked a question respecting some accounts to which he
had not been prepared to give an answer. He had looked
into the, matter, and found that the whale mistake
arose from the Hon. Baronet not calling for a full and
proper account. The return ordered by the House
asked for an account of ail the demands, but it did not
go en to (I,lmald en account of the sums in the Treasury
avail:lle for the payment of the demands, and this led
to the mistake under which the Hon. Baronet laboured.
Tr,ere was one sum which certainly required an cxpla•
nation--.A, was with regard to China.—(Hear, hear.)
Tae return stated Lire estimated amount of outstanding
det•.nnd to be, 23,0001. That war the whole. of the
amount which th! Tre ,sury knew of, but he was hound
to state that a much lirger sum than that was out-

slondinr.
Sir GEORGE CLERK said that the Right Hon.
Gerfeman ha i given an explanation and a distinct
ansccer to the qlestion which he Ld put to him on
Friday night. Bet the answer which sthe Right Hon.
Gentleman in:Ae callei for some further observations.
The lion. Baronet her entered into a detail of, the
carious sums included under the head of naval
exi.e.ls.es, and said that he could net see why any dis-
tinction should be made in the appropriation of those
sue: s, eel fie 156,0001. which ba.l come under con-
sideration on n former occasion.
M. MORE O'FERRALL said that some of tl.e
monies mentioned by the Hon. Baronet never found
their way into the Treasury, nor was it intended that
they shoult!. Tile Right Hon. Gentleman made some
`Urtl et•-cbse-cations which we could not catch.
Mr. lIERRIES complained of the want of infortna-
IL: trusted that the Chrsncellor of the Excite-
-113 r would- see the propriety of giving Ml the informa-
c ► that could he obtained upon the suhiect.
1': e.CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
made a few obs:csvutiuns that were altogether inaudible.
M. HUME said he wished to inquire of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, whether or not he was now ap-
td)ing money belonging to the Savings' Banks to carry
en the expenses of the country. He ask-zd this question
because it was in Levet' in the City, that a very large
sum had been applied in this way. On a.former occasion
he (Mr. Hum-) had asked a similar question in the
Hen tr, which the Chancel nr of the Exchequer evaded,
bat in the end it i:ppeared that be had borrowed money
in this manner, and funded it to the amount of more
than three naMio .s. He, therefore, wished to know
whether in the ['resent s!a-e of the finances of the
country- this coarse was again resorted ta, as, if so, he
considered it t be highly improper.
The . CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,
who spoke extiemely low, was uAdcirfitnrirl •z t
nn.1.i.J.,--u--,--.4...;-I.,rtr.-ratinDer %Ale pre:eat year, bu
t) nothim: lik‘o the extent that had been stated. _ _

tinr.

tu;
g:11:311:
tr. Mr.
it.l?g,hUri; AtGloEec. thoughtit:rcin.
m ~ti.,
e,
titiih,
:a:
?tell,:
aeannccadenl
cidoairdi
loafofv
rotwtht
nea I
Eeoxfxperti
elites!.
sion of Ls disapprobation that any Government
should presume to add to the Nailonai Debt without
coming to the House.—(Hear, hear.) When the -
Hcuse was sitting, if there were any defi•iency in the
revenue, the Chancellor of the Exchequer cueht to come
before the house and st ate fairly what it was, and let the
Route Pr. vide for it. No Chancellor of the Exchequer
ought to be allowed to go into the market
aeil raise money as he pleased Withc.ut tie sanction
and knoaledge of the House.—(Hear, bear.) He
Protested against it, as being a most irregular
proces ,ed and it would be for Lie House to consider
t, •
whether it would place any more ways and means at
the disposal of a Government which had adopted such
an unconstitutional proceeding.
The CHANCELLOR of the 'EXCHEQUER
said there could be no doubt that he possessed tho
power to do that which Lad Leea done, and the course
which he had adopted was ot.e.that had been pursued
before under similar circumstances. lie perfectly ad-
tnitt2d that he was responsible for the manner in which
he had exercised the discretion conferred upon him.
The ve.;tion having been put,
The SPEAKER said, that before the clause was
read a second time, he felt it to be his duty to call the
attention of the House to the clause, more especially
as respected the practice of the House, because it was
the first tine an appropriation clause had been intro-
duced
in this way. . He bel eyed the object the lion,
Gentleman Lad in view in proposing the clause, was to
milt:, the
t excess
e odfraewln-
p, , ,
mark the sense of the Iloutsheatupir
Slnce the year 1762 he
ii.o„eut,,,nddi a. ex-
penditure,
0- pc
ir(elisent:adnuec:elA' aoifn‘av suture.anyy
u
.
of appropriation except
one, asd that en e was a remarhable instance of a
course coatrery to what was now adopted. That in-
stance occurred in 1790, when no extreordiral expen-
diture took deco, in consequence of an expedition
attended with great expense, that had been fitted out.
It was then considered desirable that the vote should
not he mixed up with the, ordinary roe of supply, but
should he . reserved to the end of the Session. He
merely threw this out as a suggestion for the informa-
tinn of the House.
o
i ~,
u s e
se mixedns el d-
Me. iILI NIE said that after what bad fallenf from
the Speaker it appc:ared to
c suggested
quence that they should
loeted•
lmoif hy,t.thaet s osvgag:-
I.:::
nil': td
discretionary
'NI. snid that the objection he stated
Mr. GOIXLBURs
ent
had brought down an esti-
uni.Hpoy
et.
t.
be
1 et
0,1-o lr
so allowed tp c' e
ap y: e
c zr
1,1.
:at lie ! s
sexed a
ro,ooevreenia:sta:k,l:iri'iidl:a!oae•
f t thet
0 el matter
subjectsu.
er .
s estimate
placei
proceeding.
Member
r cceoeu on the
bEi
inefhßog.
er.
was that the
igl.tbejusttiofi
mate confes,,,Gity:hlccirinetcliv what they knew to be necessary.
be sati4ed with any course which
guard
upon but lie thought the House was- called
circumstances, riareutfirocnaar: provision
8 gi
:ito t
\lt E..
nor, :,
or:Dtf theEs f
peculiar°itt.
Ili
which of
f natureßighti ithead oHEf.
takenoxtn 1 i.Ce
make
upon is
The CHAs
that the only Practical object of the Reuse was to
said
mar -
It
was thought that that had been (led in a great mea-
sure the discussion's
sure
soWect.
Tzutwerth had expressed his satisfaction at the course
suggested. No one at the time was aware of the oh-.
jection to which the Speaker had so forcibly adverted.
He thought, after what the Speaker had said, the ob-
ject would be best effected by withdrawing the clause
from the present Bill, and introducing it at the end of
the Sessioe. It. should be withdrawn on the distinct
unk!!lrstandint,•,, that it would Le re-introduced at the
close irt:' the Session.
Sir R. .;) EEL said he had been entirely satisfied
with the course which the Hon. Gentleman proposed,
thinking' it quite sufficient to mark the sense of the
this proceedingi from being
House, and .to prevent
drawn into a precedent. He wou have been satis-
re said, If m the Queen's speech the
fled, as he hal befo , . t . e
I have dept. ed from the ordinary
Queen had said,
course with respoct to the expenditure of the Navy. I
have exceeded the estimate, and I foresaw that I should
exceed it, but the circumstances were such as to justify
me in tekiog the course which I dikl." That would
have entirely satisfied him. It would have been a re•
cord of the circumstances under which the thing was
don,. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer's zeal
outstripped his (Sir R. Peel's), and he said he would
bring in a Bill providing for the special case. - Same
objections, however, had arisen which he had not fore-
seen, to the course proposed. The object, he thought,
would be equelly answered by inserting it in the gene-
ral appropriation clause, with some specific reference to

EVENING EDITION. 2

I tin the preamble. That would prevent its being drawn
into a precedent, and avoid those inconveniences and
possible dangers to which the Right Hon. Gentleman,
the Speaker of the House, had so properly called their
attention.
The Bill went through the Committee, and the
House resumed.
POOR-LAW AMENDMENT ACT.

Lord J. RUSSELL having moved the Order of the
Day for the Committee on the Poor-law Amendment
AO,
Captain PECHELL presented a petition from a
town in Sussex, forming one of the seventeen parishes
in the Sutton Union, complaining of the Bill, and
praying that the clause relating to the Gilbert Act
might be expunged.
Sir A. GRANT and Mr. LANGDALE presented
similar petitions, the latter being from Springfield, near
Chester.
Mr. HODGSON HINDE then rose to move that
it be an instruction to the Committee to define the ne-
cessary rides, orders, and regulations for the manage-
ment of the poor and the government of workhouses,
and make provision for the discontinuance of the power
of legislation now possessed by the Commissioners ;
and for confining the power of the said Commissioners
to the completion of unions, and the superintendence
and inspection of the beards of guardians. The Hon.
Member was proceeding to address the House when ,
he was interrupted by
Lord JOHN RUSSELL, who said that this would
defeat the Bill, and therefore it could not be the sub-
ject of instruction to the Committee.
The SPEAKER was understood to decide that the
motion was irregular, and it was therefore withdrawn.
Mr. W. DUNCOMBE said he hoped the Noble
Lord (J. Russell) would give an assurance to the
House that he did not desire to hurry this Bill
through its future stages before the Easter holidays.
It appeared to him to be due to the great body of pe-
tioners who bad petitioned the House against the Bill,
that no unusual course should be adopted with regard
to it, and that ample time should be given to consider
its provisions after it had gone through Committee.—
(Hear, hear.) Und.:r these circumstances he trusted
the Noble Lord would assure the House that he had
no intention of hurrying the Bill through before Easter.
He trusted it would not get through the Committee be-
fore Easter, but if it should he trusted the Noble Lord
would not press its other stages, but would afford ample
opportunity to the lime and the country to consider
its various provisions.
Lard F. EGE RTON wished, before Cie Speaker
left the Chair, to enter into an explanation, which he
thought was due to himself, to the Noble Lord, and
the House. He had understood that there were pe'i-
Cons against the BM most numerously and respectably
signed from Manchester and Salford. These petiCous
were now in the course of signature, and would pro-
bably receive many more signatures before they were
presented. They were not only against the present
but were also in opposition to t!-,e principle of the
Poor-law Amendment Ac!. He had bar.en applied to
to present thee petitions, but having voted for ti.e se-
cond reading of the Bill on Friday night, he ha I ad-
vised the petitioners to request some other Member to
present the petitions, but at the same time he stated to
them that if they still desired he should present their
petitions he would do so. At the same time be could
not but consider tho intelligence he had received as an
indication of a very strong feeling on the subject is the
manufacturing districts, at the existence of which he
was not surprise,!.—(Cheers.) Having had cGnsider-
able txperience of the operaton of the old law in the
south of England he had come to the conclusion that
the syst'm there adopted required great alteration, and
he thought the alteration that had been effected there
by the present law was in every respect an improve-
ment. At the same time he regret:el that rti:er dis-
stricts differeLtly circumstanced should have been sub-
jected to it, and thought it might be ua•ter for coe,i-
&ration wh(ther it ought to be cxtcnded to diets ti
;here circumstances did not render it absoLitely ne, e
He trusted the N‘..ble Lord would gra:A further

tle!ay.
Lord .1. RUSSELL—It was by no means hi; wish
to hurry the l'our-ltw 13:11 throuAlt the
(Hey., hear.) Ile wished to proceed day by day wA,:i
the consideration of the clauses, because in a al! of so
much iniper awe it was de,i.-abc to I at c as full an
:attcndanca as possibly, ;Ind t to interposition of other
11:u4iness tensed to distract attention iroua
sear.) With resp,ct to wnat hal been said by the
Nible Lord opposite, he did not doubt but that a :in-
ineously s;gned petit on had been presented against the
13:11 from Maoclicster, but he could not ~1!ovz that
proved that the generi.l feeling of the people in thitt
town was against it. Oa the contrary, so !ar as his
information wont, the feeling was the ce.ier way.—
(I,•ar, hear.) In so la-ge a place it was alvnlys
easy toolttiu a numerous attendance at a puUlic raCe'•
ing, when the te•lings of the people were roused upon
the subject of it, yet he understood t' at not more than
300 persons attended the meeting at which the petition
was agreed to, and that the signatures to it had
obtained by very considcrabll industry, and same mis-
representation.
Mr. J. FIELDEN could assure the Notla Lord
cheater, that the tiOnithrbisniaiio,,kak_BO strong in Man-
thority of the Government, would never sueeeed to
putting it into force there. It was wholly unsuite It)
the manufacturing districts, and would never be adopted
in them.

Sir E. SCIGDEN hoped the Noble Lord woul 1 pro-
pose some chase, providing that aged wives and hus-
bands, when driven to the workhouse, should not he
separated..—( Hoar, hear). That question had much
excited the public mind, and he thought some provision
of that sort was necessary. If the Noble Lord did
not propose such a clause, he (Sir E. Sugden) would
feel it his duty to do so.
Colonel WOOD said, in the Staines Union work-
house, of which he was an ex-officio guardian, such a
practice did not exist. The aged married people had
good rooms, with a comfortable fire—they were not
heated with warm water.
Hr. W. ELLIS said the aged poor were not so
lodget3 in a vast number of the unions, and he trusted
he wouf'l receive the support of the House when be
proposed the amendment of which ho had given notice.
Mr. LI:ADER said a very strong feeling prevailed
in the coun,kry on the subject. The Noble Lord said
that there we're not so many petitions presented on the
question as nvigi:t be expected. He (Mr. Leader)
could account fol. that from the manner in which peti-
tions were treateG in. that House—it was in fact a farce.
The people had no confidence in the House. There
was no political subject on which the public hen so
strong a feeling as the question of the Poor-laws ; and
the Noble Lord was mistak RD if ho imagined that the
strongest feelings possible woul,.
not continue to be exhi-
bited by the working classes on t,r:.at subject.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL gain' be had stated no
such thing as the Hon. Member attriLl'uted to him. He
bad merely alluded to what he beam' respecting the
Manchester meeting.
Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL was ,Ipposed to
the Poor-law Commissioners having theright to sum-
mon before them persons attending public m ,v-ti‘e
n‘"s
who belonged to the Poor-law establishments. "
understood the Hon. Baronet to ask for some inforn to •
tion on that subject.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he o uld not then inform I
the Hon. Baronet on the subject, but that ho intended I
to make inquiries into the matter, and that he would
communicate the result.
Mr. SLANEY said that as he bad been Chairman
of the Committee appointed to inquire into the
clauses
of the Poor-law, he was enabled to state that thee
Re-
port of that Committee showed that abuses of the
grossest nature took place under the old system. Some
change was certainly necessary, and he thought the
Noble Lord should be allowed sufficient time to give the
subject due consideration, and thereby be enabled to
remove those abuse:.
After a few words from General EVANS,
Mr. WAKLEY said he hoped that something would
be done with reference to the principle which the mo-
tion involved. At present the entire government of the
workhouses was left in the hands of the Commissioners.
They made whatever rules, and orders, and regulations
they pleased. The boards of guardians were so many
puppets or nonentities in their bands. There was a
fact, bearing on the subject, which lately came to his I
knowledge, and which he thought it his duty to men-
tion
to the House. The circumstance involved a great
amount'of moral guilt.—(Hear, hear.) A case had
lately been investigated at Shire Hall, in Nottingham-
shire, this subject of which was a pauper named Parkes.
It appeared on evidence that the man died from exhaus-
tion. The overseer surgeon were brought before
the Magistrates, a int having been made against
them that they ne
giem,etpeld to
done on the occasion. do what they ought to have
The
surgeonv stated to the Ma-
gistrates that they had
endeavoured
theto from
roublteainthey matdhee
board of guardians a relaxation
with respect to giving nutriment in cases of destitution
and exhaustion. For six:vreeks he
continuedrectedthat entreating
them them to alter the rule which directed
surgeon ordered anything beyond thediietariyii
which the
diet table contained, it was not to he gives t, thehe hoard
bad sanctioned the prescription.—(Hcar,
that, in point of fact, if a medical man svitnessaerd)a r
50
pa-
tient of his dying hour by hour from weakness o
ex-
haustion, he had not the power—the governor had not the power—to give the sick man a glass of wine or a
single ounce of meat. When the questren was
discussed before tie B .rchMagi:trate, named
Rolleston, who was a Membert a
of that House, and who
he (Mr. W.) hoped was then !oleo' as could
p he ex-
plain(mr. tw.) hadbefaetstt
of the case be than he could, as he
tion in the merely read an account of the tranea>
stated that he publicbelic papers—that Hon. G. athanan
with the ed the rule in question had met
geon had called on disapprobationhim(t the Commissioners. A su-
hi (Mr. Wr: W.)
his surprise at
he bal ,mtto-day,
takingand exprt I
communication which nonce of a
WA) stating that Le did not rseenoet him. Un his (11Ir.
ll
Con, and requesting him to mention
dispute I.c.th
referred, the swgeon said tat he the a
the Usbridg Board of Guardians, H. (the surgeon)