The Sun.
London, England, 1840-03-24 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, MARCH 24. 1840.

great alteration of the existing Council. It was proposed
that the existing divisions in Upper Canada should remain.
Wait regard to Lower Canada, the proposition referred
more to the foundation of what existed previously to the
Act of 1829 than to the divisions by which Members were
sent to the Assembly of late years. i have stated that that
was ore of the subjects on which Mr. Huskisson pointed
out the defects of their representation ; but although a
Bill was passed by the Assembly and by the Legislative
Council, apparently with a view of remedying that defect,
yet greater complaints had been made of the distribution
under that act of legislation than before existed, and those
of the British race complained that they had not a fair pro-
portion in regard to their population. It is proposed now,
in order to reduce the number to those mentioned, taking
generally the existing division, that only one Member shall
be sent from each county. It is proposed in Upper Ca-
nada, that besides the counties; the towns of Halifax, London,
&c., should each have one Member, and that likewise Mon-
treal and Quebec, should each have a Member ; the result,
therefore, w.ll be that there will be thirty-nine Members for
Lower Canada and thirty-nine Members for Upper Ca-
nada, making a total of seventy-eight Members. It is pro-
posed in the present plan, different from the Bill of last
year, that the district of Glasgow shall form part of Lower
Canada, having the same number of Members, that district
being inhabited by persons who have expressed a strong de-
sire not to be separa' ed from Lower Canada. With regard to
the duration of the Legislature no alteration is proposed in
what has hitherto been the period of its duration, both in
Upper and Lower Canada, namely, four years. The
next quest;oa relates to the laws and the mode in which
they shall be enacted. With regard to this question it
is proposed to give generally the power of legislation to
the House of Assemble, which it at present possesses,
but reserving certain subjects for the assent of the Crown ;
and with regard to certain of those subjects the Royal
Assent is not to be given if either House addresses the
Crown upon it. Among those subjects was first with re-
lation to the religion and the rights and usages established
by the Act relating to Lower Canada, with res-
pect to the Roman Catholic Church, the rights
of the Protestant clergy, and some other subjects relating
to distinctions with respect to religion. Then I next come
to that which I consider a most important subject, relating
to a change proposed in the Report of Lord Durham with
regard to the powers of the Assembly, as it is one which
affects the future constitution and government of these
provinces. It is proposed, in conformity with our own
constitutional views and maxims, that money votes should
originate in the House of Assembly, but that they should
not be voted without a Message from the Governor, of
course leaving the Assembly the power to address the
Crown. I think this is a most important provision, and
deeply connected and interwoven with the whole of the
misfortunes that have taken place in Canada. Another
prevision connected with this, and likewise of very great
importance, is the institution of a Civil List. It is pro-
posed in Upper Canada—the Governor having stated his
wish that there should his a Civil List—it is proposed that
this Governor and Judges should have permanent
appropriations with regard to the civil establishments,
and that they should Ise voted by the House of Assembly.
I therefore propose that a sum of 75,0001. be set apart for
that purpose, including a sum of between 5 and 6 0001.
a y ear for pensions. It was proposed in the Bill of last
year that the Act introduced by Lord Ripon, which gave
to the Assembly of Lower Canada the duties under the
14th Geo. 3, should be repealed, and that the duties
should become part of what was properly called the Crown
revenues. Sir, in proposing that the Assembly should
not have the power to originate money votes, and that an
ample, as I should hope, Civil List should be settled. for
the purpose of carrying on the civil government of the
province, and defraying the necessary expenses of Courts
of Justice, I think we shall be taking away one great
source of contention between the Assembly and the pro-
vince. It seems to be most important in introducing a
monarchical form of Government to remove as far as pos-
sible those sources of dispute.—( Hear, hear.) In con-
sidering this subject it appears to me that partly from the
effect of the constitutional laws of the colony, and partly
from the mal-administration of these laws, evils which
could not have occurred under the regular form of Con-
stitutional Government which we enjoy, have occurred in
many of our colonies, and in none more than in Canada.
It is, generally spenking, not only the theory, but the prac-
tice of our Constitutional Government that to the Executive
Government belongs the appropriation of the public money,
that they are responsible fur the disposal of it,
and that the House of Commons, by whom it is voted,
exercises a control over it. But in the Colonies there is
neither this system of representation: nor this control.
In the first place it too frequently occurs that the persona
entrusted with the confidence of the Governor, are above
the control of the Assembly, and totally regardless of the
votes passed in it, and therefore they escape from that due
examination and responsibility which persons holding im-
portant offices, to which a great expenditure of the public
money is attached, should be subjected.—( Hear.) Oct
the other hand the Assembly not having this power of
control, which is essential to the due performance of their
functions, assumed that which belonged to the executive
Government, and each according to his own interests,
passed votes of the public money, and sanctioned its ex-
penditure in a manner which did not benefit the public at
large. Thus while there was no proper power of control
in the Assembly, on the other hand an undue power was
usurped by certain persons, and the people at large lost
the benefit of that kind of government which they were
told was established amongst them, and neither had the
power of preventing that undue expenditure, by the officers
of the Crown appointed by the Governor, nor the
security that their own popular Assembly had the power to
lay out the money and taxes of the people according to the
exigencies of the State. Sir, what I propose seems to nee
to have a great tendency to correct those abuses. I think
the power of the Assembly as to money votes should be
taken away, and I think at the same time, that a more
wholesome practice should be introduced—not by positive
enactment so much as by rule of administration—for the
control of those parties who are kept in office by the Go-
vernor- General,and have the distribution of the expenditure.
Many abuses have existed owing to the want of this con-
trol. I sin not now going to raise that question on which
I hove already at some length expressed my opinion, in the
despatch wh'.eh is before the House, and a question which
lam happy to say does not naw excite so much heat in
Canada as it once did—l mean the question of what is
there called a responsible Government, on which I have
already stated that I do not think it proper that the official
servants of the Governor should be under exactly the same
control there, as the Ministers of the House are here, be-
cause the Governor r Iccives his orde s direct from the
Crown. But, Sir, as to the unfortunate practice which has
prevailed in some Colonies, of having particular sets of
men enjoying the peculiar confidence of the Governor, and
arguing the facility which long experience gives in ma-
naging the expenditure of the public funds—( Hear, hear)
—should be put an end to, and that men, stirring in ambi-
tion perhaps, but still men of talent and ability, should
not be excluded from office—( Hear)—and therefore my
Noble Friend, the Marquis of Normanby, when ho held the
office I have now the honour to hold, directed the Go-
vernor of Nova Scotia that, when any vacancy occurred
in the Executive Council, it should be filled up from those
among the majority of time Assembly. And a vacancy
having occurred since I came into the office, I directed
time Governor to pursue that direction, thinking that there
was n r better way of putting an end to factious opposi-
tion, than by vesting the leaders with the cares and re-
sponsibilities of office. You cannot, however, lay down
any positive rule upon the su,eject, still less can you in-
troduce any clause into an Act upon it ; but it ought to he
the general practice, that the leaders of the Assembly
ought not to be altogether excluded fsom the management
of the Executive.—( Hear, hear.) In thus making the
distinction between the powers which are to originate with
the Governor, and those which belong to the Assembly, if
I did not go further, I should deprive the province of the
power of making any useful local improvement, such as
improving roads, and so on. It has been the custom, with
regard to local establishments, or raising money for local
courts of justice, to propose a Bill in the Assembly, and
to vote the money cut of the public taxes. Instead of this,
we propose there should be brought into more regular and
uniform operation, municipal government in these provinces.
In Upper Canada there is already a municipal govern
ment. They have their townships, they have their
counties, which are, however, counties merely for the
choice of Members to time Assembly ; but they have like-
wise their districts, formed of two or more counties ; in
which districts there are taxes for courts of justice, for
sheriffs, and for constables, and for the expense of the local
administration of justice. But their powers arc extremely
lenient. The tax in Upper Canada is Id. on cultivated
land, and one-fifth of a penny on uncultivated land. I
propose that the power of these municipal counties should
be Increased, so as to raise a tax of 3d. an acre on all
lands. The Earl of Durham, in his Report, has made a
statement with regard to this subject, particularly as it re-
lates to Lower Canada, which shows how useful it would
be to have some municipal authority, by which local im-
provements could take place. As matters at present
exist in Lower Canada there does not appear to he any
such authority. But I would propose to extend to Lower
Canada the authority that exists in Upper Canada, of
giving to the Governor the power of forming districts, and
of settling the boundaries of such districts. There are
fifteen in Upper Canada, and there might be twenty-five
in Lower Canada. It will be seen that these districts
will not so much assume the shape of political bodies as
they will be useful for local purposes. I think it is neces-
sary that Parliament should provide for this subject, be-
cause we do propose to take away in other parts of the
Bill the power of originating money votes, and thereby
contributing sums to these objects. There is
another reason. It is one of those subjects on which it is
likely there would be great difference of opinion and con-
tention among different parties in Canada, and it is de-
sirable to lay down the basis on which these district Coun-
,lntnntuhiaiewesnmedecatir:itnevbim.cahrhsatilainhenrligiee-Itti
cils should be formed. There is another subject, likewise,
which does not form a part of the Bill whici_potim
irate
gmionyvquestionetd jr
wupanf
traprnyeoyiee omrti
government
tressnspeo. edo mfarsyyeLci
gdcoagar:
tt,narvtuactacenniadrnodttantr ito;misalnt
emigration t
bothti us
affectsy
in
have
b questionutt
appearshwt othhohuefi
that
thought
ner great a
itnwhich difficulties
thei n
taxesthe way
the sales of land take place in Upper Canada, do form
such an obstacle to emigrants settling there, that
we have in a great measure
,to attribute the mode
in which this part of the business is conducted,
vertooftlfloermUinngitepdaaSoLftetism,e
to the evil, which is constantly complained of, that after
having emigrated from this country to Canada, the emi-
grants
become
labourers immediately
hi
epraes s and
insteado
po-
pulation of the provinces of Canada. I urn convinced
that some regulations will be sufficient to remedy this
l.
With regard to the general principle of the sale' oisfelsvilad
is Colonies, it appears to me there is nothing more
sound, nothing better proved, than the superiority of the
system of which Mr. Wakefield is the most able advocate,
over all systems on this subject. —(Hear, hear.) It is
a system which enables persons at a moderate price to be
secured of certain portions of land. It does not force
them into the auction market to contend with some person
who is speculating upon obtaining a large tract of land
which he does not mean to cultivate, but it enables hiss, at
the expenditure of a small sum of money to obtain a certain
portion of land, and to get that soon enables him to provide
dalv
Idlcar:attt maao)

I the rest of his capital and means of improvement, thus tend-
ing to tile increase of population, to the increase of villages
and towns, to give an increased ealue to all the land, and an
increased strength to the population. W:th regard to the
mode of carrying this principle into effect in such a pro-
vince as Upper Canada, I do not wish now to speak posi-
tively as to the plan I shall adopt, more especially as the
Governor-General has informed me he will very soon ad-
dress me a despatch in answer to one I orate to him, ask-
ing for a report on this subject. But Ido not think that
by the introduction of a few principles of acknowledged
soundness, by taking care that the administration of the
Crown lands shall be open and well administered by com-
petent persons of established integrity, that it will be diS-
cult to make the greatest possible change in Canada within
a very few years.—( Hear, hear.) Of course we must rely
in a great degree where there is a popular Assembly, to
the concurrence of that Assembly, but it is one to which. I
see by the Address of the Assembly, they attach the
greatest importance. I have stated the general features of
the Bill.
Mr. HUME—The qualiiication of electors.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL—The qualification of eke-
tors I do not propose to alter—neither the qualification nor.
the duration of time of the Assembly do I propose to
alter ; but I propose that there should be a qualiticatien
for the elected. I propose that a person elected to the
House of Assembly shall be in possession of 500/. in land.
I do not mean 500/. a-year, but that he should be in pos-
session of land of the value of 500/. ; fer it appears that in the
las; Assembly persons of melt extreme ignorance were elect-
ed, that one is surprised they should ever have been the
objects of the choice of the people of that province.
These, Sir, I believe, are the ni&II and leading propositions
both of the Bill and of the policy which I propose. In
making this statement, I wish likewise now to state to the
House the views I entertain, and the views which her
Majesty's Ministers h,tve been induced to take
with regard to a subject of extreme importance,
on which some petitions have been presented
to-night, and with respect to which I have
laid on the table a Bill passed by the Legislative Council
and Assembly of Upper Canada—l mean the subject of
the clergy reserves. I hold in my hand the dispatch of
the Governor-General, accompanying the B;11 which has
been passed on the subject. The House is aware that in '
the Act of 1791. one-seventh of the land to be granted
was set apart for Protestant clergymen ; and in a subsequent
provision of the Act it was stated that the Provincial Le-
gislature might vary or repeal those enactments,
but that in such cases the Bill should be laid on the
table of both Houses of Parliament, and that the consent of
the Crown should not be given within thirty days of that
being done, in order that either House might address the
Crown to withhold the Royal assent from such Bill. This
question was brought repeatedly under the notice of the
Legislature of Upper Canada. It appears that the opinions
of the Assembly of Upper Canada for a long course of
years had very little bearing on this sulject. Their
,opinion has been, generally speaking, that in the first
place, the clergy reserves ought not to be set apart solely
to the clergy of the Church of England. So little were j
they willing to accede to its being set apart solely for the
Church of England, and the Church of Scotland, in con-
fortuity with what was declared by Sir Christopher Robin-
' son and Lord Lyndhurst to be the general intention of
the Act of 1791, that their invariable language has been
that, if given to the ministers of religion, it ought
to be given to all Christian denominations, but that
they saw so much difficulty in obtaining this object,
that they were of opinion it ought to be given to
education, and sometimes to building places of worship. I
will allude to some of the Bills of which the Governor-
General has given an outline, and to some of the resolu-
tions on this subject. Ic 1825 Lord Bathurst having ma :e
a statement with regard to the clergy reserve, that it was
not intended to appropriate it according to the Act
of 1791, they entered into certain resolutions stating
their opinion that the reserve ought to be appropriated to
the purposes of education and internal improvements. In
1828, 1829, and 1830 they agreed to simiiar addresses. In
1831 they stated that to give to the support of any one
denomination exclusively would be unjust if not impolitic,
and that it would be difficult if not impracticable to divide
the same among the clergy of all denominations of Pro-
testants, and therefore they considered it would be better to
appropriate it to thepurposesof education and to the erection
of places of worship. In 1832 and 1833, Bills were sent
up to the Legislative Council for the seine purpose, which
were lust. In 1835 another Bill was sent up to the same
effect, and they agreed to a resolution, declaring that their
opinions remained entirely unchanged. In 1836, 1837,
and 1838, similar proceedings were taken. In 1839 there
were various plans proposed—one was, that the amount
should be under the control of the Local Legislature.
Now, Sir, with regard t o the nature of the plan
proposed by the Governor-General, and agreed to
by very large majorities, both in the Assembly
and Legislative Council, it proposes that the Churches of
England and of Scotland, shall have the half of any sum
which may be derived from the sale of any rents, from
the leases of lands appropriated as clergy reserves. It
goes on to say that the remaining half shall be divided
among the denominations of Christians which are acknow-
ledged in certain Acts of the province with regard to regis-
tration and certain matters of that kind—that the half shell
lie divided among them in proportion to their numbers.
It likewise provides that although, as I have stated, one
half should be given to the Church of England and the
Church of Scotland, that the proportion which the
Church of England or the Church of Scotia! si
may have should be in proportion to the number
of persons belonging to those different communities.
He proposes that the parishioners should ascer-
tain the numbers ; and certainly, as I read the Bill, it does
not say that the proportion now settled should he invari-
ably the proportion ; but as far as that one half of the
proceeds are concerned, it is left open, to be varied front
time to time. Sir, there can be no doubt that this is a
matter on which very strong feelings have existed in Ca-
nada. I have heard from more than one person that the
insurrection which took place in Canada three years ago
was to be attributed far more to the excitement that pre-
vailed on the question of clergy reserves than to any
wish to separate from the allegiance of the Crown.
There are various feelings on the subject, but they are all
against the sum being appropriated to the support of
the Church of England. There is a very strong feeling,
not only in Canada but in almost the whole of the Conti-
nent of North America, against having an Established
Church, which is to have ally exclusive privileges, or
which is to be considered as having a right et all to
govern. Having that opinion, they of course would not
agree that there should be any such peculiar privileges, or
any such distribution of these funds of the clergy reserve
to the members of the Church of England in Upper
Canada, because, according to all accounts, and according
to the census that has been made, the members of the
Church of England do not amount to one-fourth of the
whole population of the prm,inces. Other feelings have
existed upon this subject, which have very great influence
in preventing its being divided, among various denomina-
tions of Christians. The \Veslevan Methodists seem
always to have had strong objections to any part being
given to the Roman Catholics—a feeling which does not ,
seem to have operated so strongly with the Members of
the Church of England. But however that may be, it is
certain that both in the Legislative Council and in the
House of Assembly, the great majority who voted in favour
of this Bill belonged to the Church of England. It is
so stated in the despatch of the Governor-General, and I
think that is a most important document for the conside-
ration of this subject. For my overt part, I would much
rather say that I am content with the diatribution that has thus
been made by the authorities of Canada than that I
would undertake to say that upon any abstract grounds I

think that settlement is the most desirous that could be
made. Various obvious reasons may be urged' against
such a settlement, but I cannot think there are any rea-
sons which can be urged of an equal weight with the pros-
pect of returning peace to that province—( Hear, hear)—
that this subject should be settledsby the agreement of the
various branches of the Legislature, without its being ne-
cessary for Parliament to interpose.—( Hear, hear.) For
my part, Sir, if I had to propose any scheme to Parlia-
ment, I should find it extremely difficult to frame any
scheme which, on the ono hand, I should think was likely
to meet with the concurrence of Parliament, or which,
on the other, might not meet with the decided disapproba-
tion and hostility of the people of Upper Canada.—( Hear. )
It is not at this day, after se long a period has elapsed
since the Act of 1791. that you can expect to argue success-
fully with a people of different sects, living on the borders
of the United States, with regard to the abstract merits of
a Church Establishment—even if you argued on that so
far as authorities go which are in favour of a Church Esta-
blishment, the authorities of Paley and Warburton fail you
if urged in favour of giving supremacy to the Church of
England in such a community as Upper Canada. Paley
says, if the majority cease to belong to the Church of
England, the Church of England changes its place with
the majority; so, if there come to be a majority of Pres-
byterians or Roman Catholics in Upper Canada, the esta-
blishment, if the establishment of all, ought to he an esta-
blishment of that kind. But, Sir, I go simply and en-
tirely on the fact. I say, whatever may be my wishes,
and whatever I may have thought 30 or 40 years ago, I do
not think you can at this time of day impose oa the people
of Canada an Established Church from which the great
majority of the people may dissent.—(Cheers.) I am
speaking with a sincere wish to maintain these
provinces in allegiance to her Majesty, to maintain them in
connection with this country ; and I think, if these are
your views, you must be prepared somewhat to bend opi-
nions, somewhat to relax the views which may be agree-
able and suitable to this country, in accordance with the
wishes and prejudices of the people whom we wish to go-'
vern ; at the same time, by a constitution and the attach:-
merit of willing hearts.—(Cheers.) Sir, with these
views, therefore, I have no hesitation in answering the
question of the Hon. Member, that the views of her Ma-
jesty's Government are that, unless Parliament interpose,
they will humbly advise her Majesty to give her assent to
a Bill respecting the clergy reserves.—( Cheers.) I think
we should thus do away for the future, from Upper Ca-
nada, one great source of discord. I think we should
thus produce harmony, with regard to those peculiar sub-
jects with which their minds are so much agitated. I
think we should encourage them to believe that, with re-
gard to their wishes and their views, they would meet with
ready attention from the Sovereign and Parliament of this
country. Sir, in all I have stated, in the views I have
ventured to lay before the House, both with regard to the
Bill I propose to bring in, and with regard to those other
measures on which I have nothing immediately to propose
to Parliament, it has been my earnest wish to state princi-
plea, and to propose measures in accordance with the
continued and permanent connection of these provinces
with Great Britain.—(Cheers.) Sir, it is one of the
proudest—perhaps the proudest among all our boasts, that
wherever we have established colonies, we have made
them fit to manage and enjoy the institutions which were
once peculiar to ourselves, that we have educated them so
as to fit them to be themselves freemen, and to govern
themselves according to those maxims which, as E„glish_
we most revere. I remember it is said in that able
work of De Tocqueville on America, which has been re-
rred to, with regard to the people of the United States,
that their political education has been long complete, or
a! her that it was complete when the people first set foot
upon the soil. Sir, I say that that provides a test for the
institutiou of an establishment higher than any I am aware

of belonging to any empire or nation on the face of C.e
globe.—( hear, hear.) It was no doubt a proud feeling of
the importance cf the country to which he belonged, that
made Cicero refer with such exultation to the fact
that the simple declaration, " Civis roninnus sum," was
enough to obtain for the Roman citizen privileges and
immunities over a great portion of the globe ; but that
boast, however great and proud, was limited and tem-
porary ; it coutinued only so long as the legions of Rome
could enforce the terrors of the empire; but with regard
to the United States of America, with regard to these Co-
lonies, connected with us, the boast may be ever enduring.
That you sent there with the qualification, the educa-
tion, and the feetangs of themselves, the progenitors who
made them a free people in all time to come, and have
thereby given them the love for free institutions, and
shown the way in which ie should be exercised.—( Cheers. )
It is my belief you may maintain that connection with
these Colonies of British North America, without im-
posing upon them anything they feel it incumbent on them
to resist, and which they may add to our strength, without
wishing to take the situation of an independent nation. 1
believe it vs as the opinion of Sir J. Macintosh, that Colonies
in this situation must, looking back upon it, know they
. have greater happiness than it they possessed supremacy
of power, since they arc freed from those internal imposts
and burdens which are necessary for the protection of
great nations, while they have the reputation of this
mighty empire to protect them if they are assailed, and can
devote their produce to the promotion of the internal ad-
yancemeht of the education and general welfare of their
awn province. I am convinced that if by passing a Bill of
the nature proposed—with any alterations which mature
consideration may suggest—that if we can pass such a Bill,
and thereby establish permanently a free Constitution, to
which the British settler may retort, we shall then have
added to the strength of the empire, that we shall then
have subjects on the other side of the Atlantic as loyal
to the Queen as any that exist in the British Isles ; that
we shall have no compulsory establishments there, or any
insolent dominion, and that while our power and reputation
extend, their freedom and happiness will he secured.—
, (Cheers. )
Mr. HUME said be could not alloy the motion to pass,
without making some observations on what had fallen from
the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord, at the conclusion of
his speech, spoke
proudly and fairly of free institutions.
lie was also occupied for a considerable time in pointing
out that nothing but misrepresentation and misgovernment
had prevailed in Canada, for the last- fifteen or twenty
years. He had spoken of this in that glowing language
he was so capable of using; but he (Mr. Hume) asked
whether this Bill was anything like free institutions—
whether a people, living at such a distance, should have
all their regulations framed by individuals in Downing-
street—and how the Noble Lord could flatter himself that
the public, eithey here or in Upper Canada, entertained
the hopes he bad expressed ? He asked the Noble Lord
whether he had not pointed out that, for fifteen years, the
people of that province hail not by large majorities passed
a Bill with a view to settle that question, which the Noble
Lord stated to be most important—and whether these Bills,
the expressed wish of nineteen-twentieths of the popula-
tion, were not rejected because of the discord which existed?
This the Nots!'e Lcrd had given as an instance of the bautiful
result of our establishments and education in other parts of
the world. What did the Noble Lord ask the House to do
now ? He teed them that her IMajesty'e Ministers would
advise her Majesty to give her sanction to this Bill, not tint
it was in his opinion right, but because a certain majority
in Upper Canada had passed the Bill, and he said (which to
him was most astonishing) that if that Bill passed the ques-
tion would be settled in Canada. He asked the Noble
Lord was this Bill right or just to the people of Canada,
which was passed by a packed Assembly, and to which the
greatest possible dissatisfaction at this moment existed, and
nothing that the House could de in giving censent to that
Bill would promote peace. He told the Noble Lord he
was as much mistaken in expecting peace from that Bill as
he was in p ssing his revolutionary resolutions of 1837.
Three yeas a had passed, and what was the Noble Lord
ebeut to do ? He was about to concel e, as the only means
of conciliation, that which was asked in 1837, and might
then have been conceded with effect. He told the Noble
Lord he was as much mistaken in the effect of the Clergy
Reserve Bill as be was in the effect of those resolutions.
On the contrary, it would be, to the last hour Canada bad
a government, a source of discord. Would the Noble
Lord allow him to tell him the members of the Church of
England at this moment in Upper Canada were not one-
tenth of the population ? Did not the Noble Lord think
this measure vas contrary to the feelings of the Cana-
diana, arid that it would promote discord and disaffection ?
He was not disposed to go lack to cases of
any great extent against the proceedings of
the Government in Upper Canada, but he had
no hesitation in saying that if the Noble Lord or
his predecessors bad been disposed to give that which
they were now disposed to give, they would never have
heard of civil war or disaffection in any part of these pi-e-
-vinces. He held in his hand a paper containing an address
of the Speaker of the House of Assembly in 1830, stating
what they wauted, and it was impossible for any man has,'
ing that paper not to lament mismaaagement which had
kept those provinces in a state of discord. The Reports
and the Committee to which the Noble Lord had referred
all pointed out those things. He saw with great satisfaction
a passage in the Address of the Governor-Gene-
ral to the House in Upper Canada, after the
receipt of the Noble Lord's letter, and which he
would read. The Hon. Member then read the extract :
The Hon, Member proceeded to say that nothing could
be more opposed to the principles of the British Constitu-
tion than the treatment Canada had uniformly expe-
rienced. Those provinces had been made a source of pa-
tronage from first to last, in the shape of grants of land
and sinecure offices, and interruption of those improve-
ments which had been attempted in the laws of these co-
lonies. The No'd'e Lord had talked of the free institutions
of this country ; but the Noble Lord seemed to have for-
gotten that in all our colonies those institutions bed been
hampered by Biliiish Governments, and even in America
itself, on the British origin of whose people the Noble Lord
appeared so mach to pride himself, it was only after an
open resistance to our authority that free principles had
become triumphant. Canada would not be tranquillized
with a cost less than from 5,000000/. to 6,000.0001.
Yet Government could from the first have settled all the
difficulties of the question by yielding to the just claims
g, euel
of the Canadian people. Lord Gl though an
amiable swan in private life, was the person who led the
country into all those embarassrnents, and vet, instead
of having been immediately removed from office, as the
source of all those evils, he had been rewarded
with a pension of 2,000/. a-year. At the time of
the extraordinary course taken by Sir Francis Head in
Upper Canada, one of the individuals whom he (Sir F.
Head) had vielently removed from office was a Mr. Bald-
win, and that gentleman had been sent over to submit to
the British Government the real state of Canada. Mr.
Baldwin, however, after having undertaken that long jour-
net, bad beets unceremoniously refused an interview by
Lord Gleneig. The points, however, which Mr. Baldwin
intended to lay before the British Government would have
led to th.) ultimate pacification of Canada, as they were all
that were required by the people of that country, and if
that gentleman had been consulted he (Mr. Hume) be-
lieved that all the evils which followed could never have
occurred. The same Mr. Baldwin whom Lord Glenelg
had refused to see, had since been appointed Solicitor-
General in Canada, and he had been deputed on the occa-
sion as one of the most moderate men of his party. What
was it that Canada required ? They wanted a control over
their own resources—they wished to have the power of
granting the civil list which they might think proper, and
they claimeit a control over ministerial authority by
annually voting the supplies.—( Hear, hear, hear.) They
wished that the colonial administration should be
guided in conformity with the wishes of the House of Com-
mons as was the case in this country. That was all that
the Canadas wanted, for he believed that the wishes of the
people of both Provinces were the same. Why then, he
would ask, had so much blood and treasures been after-
wards expended ? He (Mr. Hume) could only account for
that by attributing some incompetency or infatuation to our
Foreign-office which it was impossible to explain. He
(Mr. Hume) did not object to the proposal of uniting the
two Provinces if the Government were left under popular
control. He believed that in that case the majority of each
of them would act in unison, as their interests were the
same. He did not, however, think that the Noble Lord
was acting fairly in introducing the election qualification
into his Bill. That was an exploded practice which was
unfitted to the present time. He would venture to foretell
that before this time ten years, or perhaps within a shorter
period, it would be found that Canada would not submit to
the conditions imposed on them by the Bill. They
would want a control over their own affairs, and the
Bill would become nothing but a subject of contention
between them and the parent country. He believed
that the Noble Lord should render the Canadians, and
with them all our othertcolonies, free from any undue ex-
ercise of authority on the part of the sovereign office.
That was one of the first objects to which he should at-
tend. When the Bill came hi he would object to many of
its clauses, and he hoped that the House would never con-
sent to its passing in its present form.—( Hear.)
Sir R. H. ING LIS would not suffer one part of the speech
of the Noble Lord to escape without entering against it
his protest. The House would perhaps have no difficulty
in judging of the part to which he referred. He alluded to
that part which related to the Church. If the Noble
Lord had been present during the speech of the Hon.
Member for Kilkenny he would have heard from no mean
authority on Canadian affairs that his Bill was not one
from which peace and tranquillity could be expected to
flow. He (Sir R. Inglis) trusted that Parliament would
never so far neglect its duty as ever to allow that Bill to
become law. What could the House of Assembly have to
do with the property of the Church ? Suppose a grant of
money had been made to the Corporation of London, in-
stead of the clergy, what right could Parliament have to
interfere with that grant? There was no difference be-
tween the two cases. It could not be justly said that the
clergy reserves could be applied to public purposes. That
was a doctrine which might be acceptable to many,
but it was not the less true.—( Cries of "'Hear.")
Tire Hon. Member for Kilkenny had more opportunities
than he (Sir Robert Inglis) had, of intercourse with per-
sons (who were now happily away from Canada) as to tha
real chareeter of the transactions of the rebellion. But the
charge against Sir F. Head. was first made by Lord Dur-
ham (no enviable distinctum) and was afterwards fully
refuted. Be would not longer intrude upon the House
than to protest against the measure which the Noble Lord
(Lord John Russell) himself avowed he introduced, not
upon his own conviction, but in compliance with the will of
others.
Mr. PAKINGTON would not go into a discussion of
the Bill, as its details were not before the House. But
he etid not think that the union of the provinces would be
productive of the advantages which the Noble Lord seemed
to contemplate from it. He regarded the experiment as
one full of risk and danger. But as he saw the Noble
Lord now returned to his place, he would ask him e wo or
three questions, which were suggested by the observations
of the Noble Lard himself, and by statements which had
been made to him (Mr. Pakington)—lst. He asked whether
it was consistent with law that the House of Assembly
of Canada should pass a bill which was in effect a repeal of
an Act of Parliament, the 37th of George the Third?
Secondly, what were the various denominations of Chris-

tiara! who were to benefit by the distribution of the two-
fourths of the reserve not appropriated to the Churches of
Scotland and England? And, thirdly, what was held to
be the construction of the thirty days? Whether they
were to be understood as thirty days of Parliamentary sit-
tings, or as days of the calendar?

ir CHARLES GREY defended the measures pro-
posed by the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) and con-
tended that they would not be productive of the evils anti-
cipated from them by the Hon. Member for Kilkenny.
With respect to the observations made on the Clergy Re-
serves Bill he could not go so far as the Hon. Baronet the
Member for Oxford, or the Hon. Member for Kilkenny,
who had stated that it would have the worst effects in
Canada, but this he would say, that he was not sanguine
enough to suppose that either of the measures of the
Noble Lord would produce contentment. But, believing
that they would effect great good he would support them.
Sir R. PEEL thought it would be unadvisable at the
present moment, in the absence of much important matter,
to discuss the principles of the important subject brought
under the attention of the House by the Noble Lord. He
should therefore for the present postpone all discussion
upon the principles of the measures, reserving to himself
an entire and unfettered discretion as to the course he
should pursue, until he had seen the enactments by which
the Noble Lord proposed to give effect to the measures.
The Chief object he had in rising was to ask the Noble
Lard in what position the clergy reserves were in Lower
Canada, and what course he proposed to pursue with re-
spect to them.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he intended to leave that
subject to the Legislature of the United Provinces, subject
to the provisions of the Act of 1791, by which power was
given to address the Crown by either House.

Sir R. PEEL wished to know, supposing neither
House of Parliament to interfere with the Clergy Reserve
Act, and supposing the Crown to have given its counsel
whether the Noble Lord would, or not, consider that a
final settlement of the Clergy Reserve in Lower Canada?
Lord J. RUSSELL was anxious to put the House i n
possession of what he conceived to be the state of the law;
he believed it to be this--that supposing the assent of her
Majesty was given to the Bill, it would not, in point of
form, prevent the Legislature of the united provinces from
legislating on the subject, but, on the contrary, they would
have the power of interfering, and proposing new legisla-
tion on any Bill not subject to the provision of the Act of
1791. With regard to the question of the Hon. Member
for Droitwich, as to the Act of the 7th and Bth of George
the Fourth, which provided for the sale of one-fourth of
the Clergy Reserves, and directed the proceeds to be in-
vested in this country, he had to say that great part had
been invested in the country, and that the Act made no
exception with respect to the restrictions of the Act of
1791. With respect to another question of the Hon.
Member, the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown
was, that without an Act of the Imperial Parliament the
Act of the Colonial Legislature would not be operative.
As to the Hon. Gentleman's question as to the thirty
days he would consult the Law Officers of the Crown,
and inform him on that subject. Then as to the debt of
Upper Canada, it was intended that that should form part
of tne debt of the United Provinces.

Mr. PA KINGTON said that there was ono ques-
tion to which the Noble Lord had not replied, and that
was as to the denomination to which the Bill was intended
to apply.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the sects who would
derive advantage from this settlement were those which
had been recognised by several Acts of the province.
Sir R. PE EL wished to know whether the Papers ty
be laid on the Table would state what these sects were
which were to be recognised ?

Lor3 J. RUSSELL—Yes, there is a phrase in the
proposed Bill respecting the different sects recognised by
the different Colonial Acts.
Colonel SI BTHORP wished to draw the attention
of the House to the expense of the appointment of the
Earl of Durham and the Right Hon. C. P. Thomson,
the late and present Governor-General of Canada. Re-
turns had been made of the expenses of the appointments
of Earl Gosford in 1835, and of Lord Durham, but he
wished, if possible, to have those accounts laid before the
House in a more satisfactory manner--he wished to extract
kroai the Noble Lord a promise to lay all the papers be-
fore the House relating to this matter—he wished to have
the returns simplified. There had been a must unwar-
rantable expenditure in 1835, on the appointment of Lord
Gosford ; there had been a great waste of money on the
appointment of Lord Durh'im, and he believed the same
thing bad occurred on the appointment of the present Go-
vernor-General ; he wished to obtain a simplification of
those returns, which had been purposely mystified, in or-
der, if possible, to prevent the public from obtaining any
knowledge on this subject.
The question having been put, leave was given, and
Lord John Russell and Mr. Labouchere were ordered to
bring in the Bill.
SUPPLY.
On the Order of the Day for the report of the Com-
mittee of Supply being brought up,
Sir J. G. BULLER said that he bad understood that
the Right Hon. and Gallant Gentleman opposite wished
to take that opportunity of offering some explanation re-
lative to the dismissal of Mr. Foote.

Sir HUSSEY VIVIAN said that he had no wish to
make any statement, nor did he see any necessity for
making one. The fact was the Ordnance Department
had nothing whatever to do mith the case. Mr. Foote
was merely the agent to the Solicitor for the Ordnance
Department, but since what had passed the other night he
requested Mr. Hignett to furnish him in writing with his
statement relative to the case of Mr. Foote, which he
would take the liberty of reading to the House. The
Right Hon. and Gallant Gentleman then read a state-
ment of Mr. Hignett stating that on the death of Mr.
Smith, the late Solicitor to the Ordnance, he received an
appointment, and that, as be alone was responsible for the
due performance of the duties of the office, he thought
he was fully justified in appointing as his agents his own
friends, and those with whom he was acquainted, that in
consequence he had employed new agents at several dif-
ferent stations, and of all the persons who had been re-
moved Mr. Foote was the only one who had thought it
necessary to make any complaint.
Sir J. Y. BULLER asked at what other stations new
agents had been appointed.
Sir HUSSEY VIVIAN was not aware of the names of
all the places; but he would mention two—Liverpool and
Birmingham. The Right Hon. and Gallant Gentleman
then proceeded to conclude the reading of Mr. Hignett's
statement. Mr. Foote had not only made complaints on
this subject, but be had caused a letter to be inserted in
the provincial papers which had been transferred to the
columns of the London daily journals, alleging that after
acting for Uty-five years as the confidential agent
of the Board of Ordnance, he had been re-
moved from that office solely on the ground of having
given his rote at the recent election, in favour of the Gen-
tleman who was opposed to the Government. That Mr.
Foote might imagine such to be the case, Being the strong
part he had taken in that election—(cheers)—giving his
professional services gratuitously to Mr. Dawson, was not
to be wondered at—(Opposition cheers)—but he begged
to say that Mr. Foote was entirely mistaken in that sup-
position,
as he had determined on appointing a new con-
fidential agen t at Devonport long before the election had
come on, and not having the honour of Mr. Foote's per-
sonal acquaintance, he was entirely unacquainted with that
gentleman's political opinions at the time he had come to
that determination. It was entirely a private affair of his
o►wn, as neither the Ordnance or the Admiralty had ever
recognized legal agents in the country, as wit; proved from
what occurred at Portsmouth, on the death of the late Mr.
Greatw•ood, when a gentleman applied to the Admiralty
for the appointment, and received an answer from Sir
James Graham, the first Lord of the Admiralty, that the
Admiralty had nothing to do with the matter, as they never
interfered in the appointments of legal agents, which
rested solely with the solicitors.—(Loud cheers front the
Ministerial benches.) He (Sir H. Vivian) was certain
that Mr. Foote never considered himself as the agent of
the Board ; if he bad so considered himself, he was a man
of too much honour to have interfered in the way he had
done in the election. The Right Honourable Gen-
tleman then read a handbill, headed Mr. Dawson's
election, in which Mr. Foote and other solicitors adver-
tised themselves as coming forward to give their gratuitous
services for his support. What would have been said had
he done this in support of Mr. Tufnell ?—( Loud cheers.)
With regard to Captain Dundas, be could state that his
visit was solely on Ordnance business, as he had written to
Captain Dundas to meet him ( Sir H. Vivian) there, for
the purpose of seeing some Ordnance property which a
person was desirous of purchasing. On that occasion
Captain Dundas had called on Mr. Foote in relation to
this business, and as he was quitting him he might have
cursorily alluded to the subject of the election. With
regard to the case of Underwood, which had also been
alluded to, he begged to say that that person had been ap-
pointed to Woolwich in the room of a person named
Nicholets, who was in the hospital, and not expected to
live. He believed that soon it would be impossible to
send an Ordnance boy to sea without inquiring which way
his relations had voted. He pledged himself that the ap-
pointments in the Ordnance Department were made irre-
spective of politics. One of the clerks in the Ordnance
had voted plurnpers against him at the Cornwall election,
and he had afterwards gone over the ground with him,
and had given orders that the suhjcct should not be alluded
to.—(Cheers.) At the last election four of the Ordnance
Department had voted for Tufuell, and four for Dawson.
This at least was an equal division.
Sir J. Y. BULLER thought the explanation of the
Right Hon. Gentleman, as far as regarded himself, satis-
factory, but still he thought the case of Mr. Foote a hard
one, as he had no notice of any intention to dismiss him,
as his letters to Mr. Hignett on the subject had remained
unanswered, and he had been employed in Ordnance busi.
ness since the death of Mr. Smith. _ _

Sir HUSSEY VIVIAN said that Hignett had not re-
ceivrd Mr. Foote's first letter until long after it wa-
written, as he was absent on an Ordnance trial at Win_
cheater.
Mr. S HA W, in reference to the question of the mili-
tary, wished to bear his testimony to the manner in which
the Master-General exercised his patronage in that esta-
blishment; he believed that in the appointment of boys to
to the College, he was not in the least influenced by pc-
litical consideratiuns.—(Cheers.) Ile also highly ap-
proved of the alterations which had been made in the age
of admission,
UNION WORKHOUSES BILL.
Mr. MAULE moved the third readaig of this Bill.
Sir C. DOUGLAS wished it to be postponed.
Mr. BERNAL also said he thought it ought to be
postponed, because the country were not generally aware
of it.
Mr. BURROUGHS and Mr. HODGES concurred
in the suggestion.
Mr. lIUME wished to know if hospitals were to be
exempt from rating.
Mr. Ir. M AULE said, the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer had already stated that he would not assent to it.
As to the request for postponement, the object of the Bill
was simply to exempt from parochial rates buildings
taken for workhouses, and a new rate commencing on the
sth April, postponement would amount to desertion.
. Sir E. KNATCHBULL said the rates were quarterly.
Sir T. FREMANTLE was in favour of the Bill, and
hoped it would not be postponed, but he wished the clause

which had been struck out to be restored, placing the land,
or the buildings used for workhousep, in the same position
as to rating as before, so that the parish should not be
injured.—( Hear. hear. )

Sir C. DOUGLAS moved that the Bill be postponed
to that by thr,:e weeks.

The gallery was cleared for a division, but none took
place, and on our return we beard
Sir R. PEEL assenting to the principle of the Bill,
but ndvocating postponement.
Mr. HAWES also trusted it would be postponed, to
give the country opportunity of expressing► opinions on it.
Mr. F. MAULE would no longer resist their solicits.
tions, and postponed the Bill for a fortnight.
The Law of Evidence (Scotland) Bill went through
Committee.