The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-27 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY
_EVEN IN G, FEBRUARY 27,

heard any such doctrine broached, and he thought that it had
been justly condemned. Had the Honourable Mem-
ber referred to the diet intended for the veople
of Ireland, and to the consequence of giving them
a liquid food. The subject had occupied the attention of the
Government, and enormous quantities of solid food were being
sent by the Government over to Ireland in order to relieve, us
much as possible, the distress there. He felt it to be his duty
to do all that lay in his power to mitigate that distress, bat he
feared that there was a d;sposition to over-rate the power of
any Government to relieve distress.—(Hear, hear.) All that
they could do would be done,witre3s the fact that the Noble Lord
was at the present moment raising a loan of 8,000,C0)/, to re-
lieve the distress prevalent. The people of Ireland had, at this
moment, a claim upon the co-operation and support of England,
and that support had been given as far as it could be. He ad-
mitted that there was a feeling on the part of the English and
Scotch people, that while they were helping their Irish
brethren, there ought to be a corresponding exertion on the
part of the people themselves.
BOARD OF WORKS' REPORT.
Colonel WOOD wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Secretary for Ireland, when any additional report from the
Board of Works in Ireland would be laid on the table ?
Mr. LA BOUCHERE replied that they were made out
every month, and laid before the House as soon as possible
afterwards.

EXCHEQUER LOANS.
Mr. HUME wished, before the order of the day was read,
to call the attention of the House to the mode in which it was
proposed to effect tho loan of the eight millions that was in-
tended for the relief of Ireland. It appeared to him that the
proceeding, as he had seen it stated in the papers, was against
all experience, and would have an injurious effect on the finances
of the country. He regretted it very much, and was of opi-
nion that it would be much better to borrow the money at the
lowest rate of interest for which they could get it, and he
hoped the Noble Lord would alter his plan so as to embrace his
view.
Lord J. RUSSELL replied, that they had proceeded with
the plan referred to because they considered it the best one
which, from the best information they could get, could be
adopted.
On the motion to go into a Committee of Supply,
CONVEYANCE OF FOREIGN PROVISIONS.
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD brought forward the mo-
tion of which he had given notice, that an humble address be
presented to her Majesty, praying that she would be graciously
pleased to authorise and direct that such ships of tier Majesty's
navy', as can be spared from the regular duty, should be ap-
plied, under such regulations as her Majesty might deem ad-
visable, to the accommodation of merchants in the conveying
of co•n and provisions from foreign countries into the ports of
the United Kingdom. On taking a survey of the various
countries from which corn might be expected, it would be
found impossible to procure from the mercantile marine a
clent amount of shipping to convey the food accumulated in
foreign countries to the people of this country. There would
be one million of quarters of grain collected in the various
ports of the Danube toy the et of June, and this grain, if
brought to this country in the mode he pointed out,
would greatly alleviate the pressure of the present calamity.
end in America, also, and other places, the accumulation of
grain was equally great. It might be at once seen, then, how
great was the scarcity of ships from the increasing freights that
were charged for the conveyance of grain, a statement of
which he then made to the House. He would not attempt to
dwell upon the wretchedness of Ireland, as that was well
known to her Majesty's Government ; and he hoped that the
measure now proposed, tending, as it would do, to alleviate in
some degree the mass of misery which prevailed in that coun-
try,: would meet with their approval. He would not trespass
longer on their attention, but would conclude by submitting
the motion.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the subject referred to in the
motion of the Hon. Member had been brought under the no-
tice of the Government some time ago, and they had had it
under their consideration, but they did not think it advisable,
to adopt it. He should however, say that there were at pre-
sent a great number of vessels—sailing-vessels and steam-ves-
sels employed in conveying provisions to different parts
of Ireland. Thera were thirty steam-vessels, twelve
sailing-vessels, and five depot ship, employed
in the conveyance of provisions to and from different parts of
Ireland. With regard to the supplies from abroad, of which
the lion. Member had spoken, he feared that lie had estimated
them far beyond the truth. lie thought that the quantity of
grain which they might expect from abroad was very small
indeed. But supposing they acceded to the motion of the ilo-
nourable Gentleman it would be necessary, in the first place,
ti put the vessels in a condition adapted to the conveyance of
provisions. Now this would Occupy considerable time and
would occasion considerable expense. It would take about
Pl,ooo'. to put them in this state, and perhaps double that
amount to adapt them again to the purpose fur which they are
intended. In addition to this, the very limited supplies of
grain which they would be able to procure made it very obvious
that no adequate result would compensate for such expen-
diture. The certain consequence, however, would fellow that
as soon as it became known and was proclaimed that her Ma-
jesty's ships were employed in this service it would cause a
very great discouragement to the exertion= of the mer-
chants of this country.—(hear, hear.) It would re-
quire a much greater eff,rt to be made than he had
anticipated. His own estimate was, that it would require
from 1,20 /to 1,50) ships for a service of this kind. Now, it
it was proclaimed that Government vessels were to be employed,
the number of vessels now engaged in the conveyance of food
would be considerably less, and the freights from America and
Odessa would be considerably greater. There was also con i-
derable difficulty, as well as expense, in bringing Indian cern
from the western states to the ports of America. Corn, which
was sold in the interior at 7d. per bushel, was enhanced in
price several shillings before it arrived at the port in conse-
quence of the cost of conveyance. And in addition to this,
there was a great deficiency of boats to bring it down the Mis-
sissipi. The great objection, therefore, to the proposal of the
Hon. Gentleman was the expense it would cost—the great loss
of time it NNould occasion before it could be carried into effect,
and the great discouragement it would give to private enter-
prise. Ile hoped the Hon. Member would, under these cir-
cumstances, withdraw his motion, for he might rest as-
sured if her Majesty's Government thought they would be able
by that means to accelerate the importation of food, and to in-
crease the supplies, they would be as ready to adopt it as they
wore to employ her Majesty's vessels in the distribution of grain
to the different ports of Ireland.
Tit, motion was then by leave withdrawn.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL then stated that a proposal had
been made to the Government by the Society of Friends, who
had exerted themselves so much for the relief of the distress in
Ireland, that they should, by their contributions, endeavour to
raise a sum of money sufficient to purchase a cargo of corn, if
the Government would allow one of her Majesty's vessels to
convey it t'roin America. Government declined that proposal,
but cffered to pay themselves fur the freight of the corn from
America to this country.
Mr. KERR thought if Government had allowed her Ma-
vesels to be employed in affording accommodation to
thiEse persona who were disposed to emigrate front Ireland, that
this, in connexion with the plans which they were at present '
engaged in carrying out, would be productive of the greaeest
good to the inhabitants of that country. In that way they
should get rid of a large portion of a population which could
not fiod either sustenance or employment in Ireland.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that with regard to vessels
bringing corn to this country, they would be at liberty to take
in passengers to the colonies without beings, subjected to the
Operations of the Act. That was to be allowed, provided that
they confined themselves to passengers only, and he believed
that the system would be of benefit to the country.
SHIPS' SIGNALS. _ _

Mr. HUME wished io know whether the Admiralty had
come to any determination with respect to the signals to be
adopted by vessels sailing off the coast of England. 'fliere
were collisions so frequently occurring at sea, that some
measure was necessary to prevent it. lie saw, by a return,
that during the past year, s:io collisions of ships had takrn place
on the coast of Ireland, and he believed that if a proper code
of signals had been adopted, much of this loss might have been
avoided. The experiment had been tried by her Majesty's
ships at Portsmouth, and it was desirable that they should
know the result of the experiment.
Mr. WARD said that the trial had been made to a consider-
able extent, and the next week he should be enabled to lay the
results on the table. _ .

Mr. ROEBUCK said that as he did not see the Secretary
for the Home Department in his place, he would ask the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government, if there was any ob-
jection to lay upon the table the answer of the Poor-law Cons-
missionere to the question of the Government, as to the manner
in which they exercised their functions.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was understood to say that the
piper would be laid upon the table.
NAVAL ARCHITECTURE.
Sir C. NAPIER wished to call the attention of the House
to the system pursued in her Majesty's dockyards with respect
to the building of vessels for the navy, and to the abuses
which prevailed as to the use of ships which had
been built at an enormous cost to the country.
There had been eight three-deck ships cut does], and many
others so altered as to be materially injured. There had been
hardly one ship built of late which had not been altered in
some respect mere then once, but all of them once. He would
le Ad the retorts of the ships cut down, in order to show the ex-
tent to which the system was pursued. A 74-gun ship, built
in 1815, which cost 86,0401., was cut down in 1841. The Vin-
dictive, built in 1813, and which cost 81,0001., was cut down to
a frigate in 1832, without ever having been at sea. The
Amazon, 42, built in 1821, was cut down, without having been
at sea, in 1344 ; and another 42-gun ship was cut down in
1845. The Brilliant was cutting down at the present moment.
The Penelope, 44, was converted into a steam-frigate. The
Thames. which coat 37,0001., had been turned into a hulk, and
the Bacchus was now cutting down. The Ilebe, built in 1826,
h.uother
The ships
and which cost 32,484/., was turned into a hulk in 1839; and
soeboesetnweasith679,oesototidowsnhoiprstuorrn4l intoand
sum had also
of
their
.4., manylk.
guns had been cut down into corvettes, mounting
, -2 guns, and, in fact, the late Board of Admiralty
seemed to have it as their hobby, that a corvette of
22 guns could early heavier metal, and be superior
to ships of 44 guns. He very much doubted the propriety of
cutting them down, but it was well known that the practice of
the Admiralty was to turn large frigates into small corvettes.
The nest fact he came to was, with reference to the Caledonia,
a three-decker, built in 1808, costing 81,0001., and afterwards
1 repaired at an expense of 10,000/. in 1815. The Board of
Admiralty took the freak into their head of widening the
Caledonia, which was done at an enormous expense, and a good
ship turned into a very indifferent one. Lord Exmouth, who
commanded her in the Mediterranean, begged that they would
not spoil the ship, but they were indifferent to the request.
They had six three-deckers on the stocks at the present
moment, mounting each 110 guns, built upon the model of
I the Queen, and the Admiralty were in fact quite ignorant as
to whether she was a ship fit to use as a model. There were
six 90-gun ships built after the Albion, a ship which was sent
to sea in 1841. He cautioned the Admiralty at the time to
be careful in building ships until they had tried the models, but
no attention was paid to it, and the vessels were to be con-
structed upon a plan which acted indifferently in small vessels,
an I could not therefore be very applicable to large ones.
There had been many doubts as to whether the
Albion was a good or bad ship, but he had
one proof of her qualities ; namely, that in
a late gals she rolled 45 degrees to leeward, and lurched ever
to windward 43 degrees. Ile remembered when the Van-
guard wan in the Mediterranean she sailed excellently at first,
and with her ports seven feet four inches out of the water,
hut then she was in yacht trim, but the moment she had her
full complement of provieions and stores on board, sha sailed
v-ry indifferently. On one cruise the Vanguard carried only
635 tons, while the old Canopus had 793 tons. On another,
she carried 4't2 tons ; and on a third, only 618 tons, and yet
then she sailed well. The Superb had the same complaint made
of her, end her captain had actually been obliged to shift
the stores to trim the ship. The Rodney—a much smaller
ship than the Albion—carried her ports 7 feet -I'. inches,
7 feet S inches, and 8 feet out of the water, whilst the
Albion only carried them El.!, feet. She had now been sent
t.
,zoreltlalta. The Rodney had exercised her guns in a strong
I
'alla hardly shipped a drop of water on her lower deck,
whilst the people of the Albion were obliged to hold on inconse-
quence of the rollin
Water. Way th 'g, and she shipped an immense quantity of
old
dt a fit ship to send against a French vessel
built upon the
managed in conserSuystem? The steam navy was equally badly
of them were ul.,..eir of the frequent alterations, and many
He next came to the t.)carry main-deck guns at all.
one of the largest size. Terrific,.,e. which was a 40 gun frigate, and
feet by the Admiralty ; and
what
been lengthened about sixty
. she could not bear herself up.
sr.ifessthe result? Why that
only four feet eleven inches above the was,
i"
her altered state,
water. She went to the

coast of Africa ; and he had learned, that while there, her main
deck was but four feet four inches out of the water, and they
had been obliged to cork in her port holes, to keep the water
out. He now came to the Terrible, which was built at Woo'.
wich, by a man of great talent and experience, and it was ex-
pected that she would turn out a real and proper man-d-war.
Now the Board of Admiralty were sitting only within six miles
of the dock where the ship was building, and although she ems
1860 tons burden, they absolutely forgot to have any stern-ports
made in her. The consequence was, they had to cut down her
stern-deck, in order to accommodate the guns, and then they had
to hunt about to get guns to suit. The bow ports of this ship had
also been very badly constructed. She was a ship. nevertheless,
that steamed well, and was efficient in several other respects.—
( Hear, hear.) But let them wait a little before they cheered, 1
they were not yet out of the wood. She was to have been
constructed to carry 800 tons of coal, but when it was stowed !
in her, it was found she would not stow away under decks
more than 350 tons, or coal for four dap, at ;he rate of 85
tons a day. They had been obliged to get coal bunkers built
on the deck, and then she could not carry more than 500 or
550 tons. But this was riot the only fault of the Terrible,
her paddle-boxes were elevated greatly above the decks, and
her steam-boxes and boilers were actually six feet five inches
above the level of the water. The engines were so placed
that in a fight there would he no escape If a shot were fired
into the boiler, then below, about forty persons in number
would be completely cooked. In fact boiled by the steam.
If such a thing were to happen the result would be that ,
not a stoker would be got to go into the navy. The Retribu-
tion was a steam-ship of 1,641 tons, and her main-deck was
but five feet six inches above the lower ; she was unable to
carry main-deck guns. The Avenger of 1,442 tons was ex-
actly in the same predicament. the same might be said of
the Barcemide, the Sampson, the Centaur, the Vulture, the
Pegasus, the Dragon, the Firebrand, the Orion, and several
others. Not one of these could carry main-deck guns. They
could not go into action, and could only carry eight days fuel at
the most. If they did go into action, from the position of their
boilers and paddle-boxes, they would be certain of destruction.
He remembered in 1841 he cautioned the Board of Admiralty
against the construction of iron steam vessels; and if they
built them, to plank them outside and in with timber. Yet,
they had not taken his advice, and had gone on
building iron steamers without ever having tried a
shot upon one of them. Ilere was a fine list, indeed, of
, no less than thirty-three iron steamers built, or laid down for
build:ng from 1840 to 1847. They hail not tried a single shot
on an iron steamer till very lately, and then they found that
the shot went clean through one side, and almost through the
other. These steamers would cost about two millions of
money, or taking the laree steamers with the small ones about
fifty thousand pounds each. If they would not cost two mil.
lions sserling, they would at least a million and a-half. 'They
were, in fact, perfectly useless. The Birkenhead steamer had
been turned into a troop ship. then she would not carry more
than 450 troops, and had no place for cable-tiers. But she
was rot fit for a troop ship in the time of war, for if she went
into action and received a shot she would go to the bottom,
and all the troops would be drowned. In fact, it would be
necessary to supply all the mien with air-collars.--( Laughter.) The
Admiralty should sell them all. One of them the Grappler, he
had been informed, was nearly lost the other day OR the coast
of Africa. He also complained of the screw vessels which had
been constructed. It seemed that 17 ware in the progress of
being built, and only one had been completed, the Rattler.
Doubtless the vessel ought to have a fair trial, and he hoped it ,
would succeed; but he considered one ought to have had a fair
trial before 17 others were contracted for. What he had now
shown was sufficient to prove that great blame was due not
only to the late Board of Admiralty, but to every Board of
Admiralty that had sat for many years. He now came to the
great change in the navy last year, and the condition the ser-
vice was in, prior to the brevet. In 1816 the service consisted
of 1 admiral of the feet, 66 admirals, 68 vice-admirals, 75
rear-admirals, 831 captains, 812 commanders, and 4,012 lieute-
nants. This immense number was repeatedly complained
of, yet up to 1830 it remained the same. The
Government became then ashamed of this enormous list,
and resolved, on the 27th of July, 1830, that no promottons
should be made, brilliant exploits excepted, except one pro-
motion to every three vacancies. ( The Hon. and Gallant
Member here read the decision of the Admiralty to that effect.)
Matters, however, continued bad enough till last year, when
the provision was made for the retirement of many of the
officers on the list. On the 30th of September last year there
were 171 fl ;g officers—these were reduced to 139; there were
858 captains, which were reduced to 730; there were 918
commanders, which were reduced to 855; and 3,5:0 lieu-
tenants,
which were reduced 2,558. 30,0001. was granted for
a retiring allowance, and the flag officers were reduced
to 150, and the captains to 500. But the first thing
the Government did at the same time was to increase
the flag officers to 160, though by vacancies which had
since taken place, the number was only two above the
150. Thoueln they had reduced the captains' list, what slid
they du? They promoted 60 commanders to the post of
captains. This was undoubtedly a breach of the arrangement
they had previously come to. No promotions should have been
made till the captains were reduced to 500. On this subject
he trusted he would get the assistance of the llon. Member
fur Montrose (Mr. Hume), in order to take the sense of the
House on these promotions, which, if persisted in, would place
a vast amount of patronage annually in the hands of the Go-
vernment. Instead of doing as they had done, if the Govern-
ment would make but one promotion for every vacancy he
thought the service would soon be brought into a healthy state.
fie had alreost forgot one thing of some importance, which he
had intended to point out to the Admiralty ; he was glad he had
recollected it. He had just been pointing out the monstrosity
of their constructing 20 screw vessels without trying any of
them except one, and 30 iron vessels, of which they had actu-
ally tried none ; but there was another fact which nearly equals
that, if it did not excel it. What did they suppose it was?
Why, the Admiralty had given orders for four line-of-battle
ships, and four seventy-four gun frigates being cut down.
Granting that object might turn out of use, what
was even more than that was, that they made
no contract with the builder who was to accomplish
it. This it seemed they wore not in the habit of doing; for
he was told that in the case of one of the ships which was
being built, he believed, in Mr. Green's yard, he was told there
was no contract, and that they just sent in their hill once a
month for payment. Ile hoped to be told that he had been
misinformed as to there being no contract. But here they had
four line-of-battle ships and four frigates to be cut down, be-
sides the war vessels on the stocks, and what, he asked, was the
estimated amount of the expense? What was the vote to be
tal:en? The vote of last year was 18,000/.; what was
the vote of the present session ? 18,0001. would do
no more than build one good vessel ; it was im-
possible it eould do more than cover the expense
• of the vessel in Mr. Green's yard. But then again there
was ! he case of the Vampire ; her bows was pulled to pieces,
and she was to be made into a bad steam-boat ; they were to
have a bad steam-boat for a good frigate. The vote of last
year was 18,000/. He begged again to ask what was the vote
for the present year ? Ile found that the vote of last year
for building iron steam vessels was 129,0001., and this year the
vote to be asked from the House was 100,175!. When Mem-
bem came to vote away such a sum of motley as that, they na-
turally wished to know, and they ought to know, how it was to
be spent. For his part, he did hope that the present Board of
Admiralty would spend it better than the last board
had done. He would not speak harshly of them just
now, for as yet they had had but little time
in office. Oise thing he must mention before
he resumed his seat. He understood that a commission had
been sitting at the Admiralty, will a view to increase the pay
of the lieutenants. Ile thought that there ought to be a com-
mission, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he believed,
agreed with him, to increase the wages and so raise the status
of their engineers. Ile said it was a most singular thing, but
a fact as true as singular, that Government had never sent out a
steam-vessel which had not broken down—add what was the
reason ? It arose from the parsimony of the Government,
who gave low wages, and engaged thereby a low class of men,
whe were ill qualified to do the duties of their office.
When a steam-vessel was built and the machinery put in, the
Government had never appointed the engineer, previously, to see
that the machinery, the cranks, and shafts, were properly and
efficiently constructed, and properly put up. In fact, there was
one case—he would not mention names—but he knew that a
steam-boat was constructed by order of the Government, the
machinery was put in, and the engineer, who had the superin-
tendence of her construction, and put in the machinery, knew
that he was putting in instrlcient machinery at the time, and
the consequence was, that when the vessel put to sea, she broke
down. Ills opinions was, that if the Government would in-
crease the wages of their engineers to a sufficient amount, and
raise their station to a higher grade—say the rank of Lieu-
tenants—(Mr. Ward : "4 hey have it.") Sir Charles said
lie was glad to hear it ; but if they would increase
their wages also, and appoint them in time to inspect the ma-
chinery as it was being put on heard, he was convinced that
the effect would be immensely beyond any anticipation the
House might be prepared to make on the subject. Another
point to which he wished to draw the attention of the Ad-
miralty, was their officers— he meant their petty officers.
He said the naval officers had been continually rated in that
House and throughout the country by persons who knew no-
thing about the subject they were talking upon ; but, if Go-
vernment would pay their first class and second class of officers
had
h(t)llida that
theirth e sweagemens,anwd otuhled
efoenelseigt
at a hater rate, and their seamen also, they would
u epnucne iswhonuteldntveresn' enough
bt
en)
that all corporal punishments would disappear from the
navy. He expre.sed his fervent hope that the Admiralty
would this year pay attention to the recommendations of that
commission. One thine that he wished to press upon the
Secretary of the Admiralty was that he would establish at least
one single seaman's home at one of the ports ; he begged dis-
tinctly to press this upon the attention of the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman. They had been to!d again and again by the Government
for the last four or five years that the Merchant Seamen's
Fur.d should be upheld. But now he begged positively to
ask the Government whether they intended or not to amelio-
rate the Alerc' ant Seaman's Fund; he begged they would
either do so at once or give it up altogether. The seamen
themselves said their wages were partially withheld by the Go-
cernmerm for the support of this fund, and they received no be-
nefit whatever from it. They begged, therefore, that Govern-
ment would either repeal the Act authorisine the
collection of
the fund, or so alter it that they would benefit from it, Again,
he begged to draw the notice of the Admiralty
to the Registration Bill about which so much had
been said of late, aed not a little against it.
A Bill was brought in some years ago, by his Right
Honourable Friend, for the registering of the names of
the seamen, and for the furnishing them with tickets. It had
been said that that me sure had proved ineffectual ; but he
quite differed from that (pinion, and he would read a letter
which he had just received from a friend well able to judge on
the subject, which would show that such an opinion was ill-
founded. The Gallant Admiral here read the letter, stating
that the registrations for 1845 had been 207,813, and for 1846
the number of tickets issued was 230,892; but in the latter
year it was found that the number of desertions was
2,341. The letter concluded by stating the writer's belief that
the effect of this Act would be the production of great good.
He (Sir C. Napier) said there were still difficulties and defects
in the measure, but he had seen an able friend the other day,
and he proposed as a means of remedying these, that some
gentlemen should be appointed to superintend the registration,
who, as soon as a bargain was struck between the seaman and
the captain, should register it, and the good effects, he believed,
would very soon be felt. Ile would now trespass shortly on the
attention of the House, while he drew their notice to the
subject of enlistment. his Friend opposite, the Right Hon.
Baronet (Sir C. Wood), had brought in a Bill, which in the
event of war, was intended to have the effect of inducing
the seamen to come forward immediately upon her ;Majesty's
proclamation. One of the provisions of that measure was to
entitle those who came furs and within five days after the pro-
clamation, to a bounty of 10/. ; and another was to entitle
those actually in service to a bounty of another ainowit. But
now suppose the 'limits should vote a supply of 50,0.40
men, that moment the Chancellor of the Exchequer
must be prepared with a sum nearly like 500,000/. But,
again, suppose they wanted five thousand men in a popular
war, they would tied that an overwhelmi' g number would
come forward out of the merchant service, and the immediate
effect would be to injure that service. He wished that some
arrangement could be made, so that men could be called out by
classes, an arrangement, for example, which would compel
every boy, who had served his apprenticeship in the merchant
service. to go the first or the second year after
into the war service, for a certain period, when he
would be trained to his duties on board a ship of
war, and should thereby be fitted for her Majesty's
service, and at the same time acquire a knowledge and a liking
of its superior eharacter. He begged once more that the Go
vernment would take into consideration the composition of the j
, Board of Admiralty. That was a subject which ho had often

brought before the House, and he felt the necessity of doing so
again. The mistakes that were committed were most nu•
nasrous, and they were all attributed to the First Lou.l
of the Admiralty ; but that was, in a great mea-
sure, the fault of the First Lord of the Admi-
ralty himself, there was a great deal too much thrown
upon him. The three Lords of the Admiralty had all
the docks under their management according to the
present arrangement ; but if this were altered—if the fleet were
put under the control of the First Lord of the Admiralty,
and if the docks were put under the second or the third Lora,
he believed that matters would turn out much more correctly.
He spoke from experiencewhen be said that, for he had had the
building of one ship himself; he had to consult with the builder,
with the engineer, and with the ethers; but he had invariably
had the builder and the engineer brought together,
so that by their frequent consultations each might know the
other'sduties and preparations more perfectly, and so abarrnony
be established which alone could ensure correctness and adapta-
tion. Ile was sure that without that, they could not go on as
he
n
could
ot
gm
they ought, and yet, as it was at present, the builder was per-
haps at Portsmouth and the engineer at Wociwich, and all
that each had of the other's work, was what could be supplied by
drawings. He felt assured that his suggestion as to the divi-
siona
Admiraltyof
lnothfe3o ywoeus dutieslrds
of w yetage
which
ei
he was e:
impossiblef
expected
services
x p ec te d by
adopted, despite the First Lord whoever he might he ; for it
was thatto
do the
hwere
Lords
be
a of
execute
u all
much less if he were a man at 76, as his friend Sir George
Cockburn was. Another point to which he would address
himself was the manning of the ships. They were told that
their men of war were not to be ships without guns, and they
were told that the 40-gun ships were manned with their com-
plement. But what was the number of men at present in the
service? Why they were 4,000 short.
Mr. WAR D—(laughing )-4,000 men over. That was not
a great mistake.
Sir C. NAPIER—WeII, but the late Government, when they
came into office, made large professions. Sir George Cockburn told
them that their line-of-battle ships and the other ships of war
must be properly manned, and he began on a magnificent
scale. But what was the end of it? Why, when the
squadron which was then fitted out put to sea, they sailed
with one-third less men than their complement, and the
vacuity was filed with marines. But it was said that the
squadron was out upon trial; yet there were three of the ships
at that moment in the Mediterranean, and one of them was
at Lisbon. If there were 4,000 men above the complement,
he wished to know how they were to be paid out of the esti-
mates of the present year? Last year they were 150 men
short, and this year they were 4,0[30 men over the complement
—how, then, could this extra number be paid out of a vote
no larger Ilan, if it was so large, as it was last
year? He must appeal to his Right Hon. Friend behind him,
and take his wonted argument that with so small a vote they
would be cbliged to have recourse to amounts voted for differ-
ent purposes. a course which was not to be approved of, fur
thus they did nut know what this Government was doing. If
they wishes! money for any object, that object ought to be
named, and a vote specifically taken for it. The Noble Lord
the Member for Lynn had chosen to think and to say of him
(Sir C. Napier) that he who had just stepped off the quarter-
deck into the dockyard could not be well fitted to
enter upon the discharge of his duties. Perhaps
he (Sir C. Napier) might say of the Noble Lord; that he
who had just stepped off a quarter-deck peculiar to himself—
for Newmarket and Epsom were the quarterdecks which he
had walked, and which he had left to come into that House—
could not have been very familiar or very much a master of
the duties which he was called upon to perform. But he
would tell the Noble Lord that. his (Sir C. Napier's) vessel
would be ready on Saturday night to put to sea on a trial
cruise, and he would invite the Noble Lord most heartily to
take a trip with him. He would give him a trip round the
Isle of Wight, and as good a bottle of—(Laughter)—as good
a bottle of port as he could get in the kingdom, and perhaps
that would prove a solatient to his wounded feelings over the
loss of his Railway Bill.—( Laughter and " Ilear, hear.")
Mr. CORRIE rose to make a few observations in reply to
the Gallant Admiral who had made his speech now for the
sixth time, as Hansard up stairs would show. Especially he
must notice one point of importance, not only to the
Admiralty, but to the nation at large—he meant the
building of iron vessels. The Admtralty felt it their
duty to encourage ship-building, from a material
which abounded in the kingdom. They were aware that the
timber used in the dockyards was for the most part of foreign
growth, and that during the last war there had been an exces-
sive demand for is. It was natural, therefore, if they could do
it with equally good effect to the navy, that the Admiralty
should wish to encourage the use of materials possessed by
Great Britain within her own territories. He thought these
Were quite reasons sufficient to justify the late Board of Admi-
ralty in constructing steamers of iron. But the Gallant
Adetiral thought that this experiment was carried
to too great an extent. Now, out of these 33
vessels, he should put nine out of the list. Several of
them were very small vessels, and he should, therefore,
only take twenty-four on which he should make any remarks.
The Gallant Admiral had stated that these iron ships strained
so that there was great danger of both crews and cargoes being
lost. That was the first time that he had ever heard such a re-
pot t, and just as he had a paper put into his hands by an Irish
gentleman who had made 250 iron vessels, some of them of a,
much as I,B'o tons, all of which were seaworthy; and he need
only take the instance of the Great Britain, now lying in Dun-
drum Bay, where it has been subject to a very heavy sea, with-
out that straining of which he complained ; but of the twenty-
four vessels, one was built only for the purposes of experiment
on the screw propeller, and only six, the Birkenhead,
and five others, that had been built for war Yes-
sels. The others they had taken, because they could
get no others. Subsequently to the Nemesis being built,
another vessel of much larger dimensions had been built. It
was of 1,3)0 tons, and they had the report of a ship-builder of
great experience for the assurance that no vessels could better
answer the purpose. Now, in refutation of tbis prejudice
against the use of iron for war vessels, he would read commu- j
nieations from commanders who had these vessels. One was
from Captain Hall, who had the Nemesis, and he said that the
Nemesis had been struck as many as fourteen times in action
but only one shot could have been said to pass quite through
the ship, and he had never observed any particular danger
from splinters from iron. Other shots glanced harmless away.
The hold of the Nemesis was divided into seven water-tight
compartments, and her bottom had been repeatedly pierced
by sunken rocks, and yet no danger had ensued ; and his
opinion was decidedly in favour of iron over wooden vessels.
Captain Hall was a man of as great exj erience as any man in
this or any other country. Teen there was the evidence also
of Captain Charleville, who had the Guadeloupe. The vessel
which he commanded was struck by a 24-pound shot, fired
from a distance of 1,030 yards, and the hole made was not
larger than just sufficient to allow the shot to pass through.
Another shot, an 18-pounder, struck the counter when fired
from seven hundred yards, and it only indented the iron, and
then passed away. Another shot, which passed through her
side, lodged in the coal bunker, but without starting a single
bolt. There were a variety of other instances which were
given by some of the most eminent officers in the British
navy, all tending to the same effect. So that he believed that
the late Board of Admiralty ought to be quite exonerated from
all blame ; yet he believed that the present Board was quite
right in holding their hands, and in refraining from going to
the expense of constructing iron steamers until, they had the
fullest assurance that they were fit for the purposes' of war.—
( Hear, hear.) The Gallant Admiral had charged the late
Board with rashness in ordering so many as seas n'een schooners,
but it should be recollected that these vessels were built for the
screw propeller. This was a charge that could hardly be sus-
tained, for if these iron vessels were not fitted for war purposes,
they would at any rate be fit for the conveyance of troops anti
stores; and many of these schooners had been built from
a us, j 'ifiable cause, that arose from the state of the
relations between this country and France. The
Gallant Officer (Captain Pechell) said that there
were the block ships, but it should be recollected that they
wanted vessels to move quickly about, and block ships were
totally unfit for experiments. lle would not have troubled the
House to such a length but he was anxious to defend the late j
Board of Admiralty from the attacks that had been made
up in it.
Admiral DUNDAS thought that the attack of the Gallant
Admiral was most unfair and unjust, especially as respected
the promotion of officers. He found by looking at the officer's
lists in 1816 and 1846 that as many as 1,454 officers had died.
The admiral's list had been reduced from 210 to 56; the cap-
tain's
list from 851 to 697 ; the lieutenant's from :4,317 to
4e348. With respect to the number of promotions that had
been made, he could state to the House that upwards of 160
lieutenants had been promoted for meritorious services rendered
to the country, and he only regretted that double that number
had not been promoted, in order that the Government might
show their sense of the services that had been rendered to the
country.
Captain HARRIS was glad that this attack had been
made,
as it had elicited the statements that had just been made on
both sides of the House, and he was still further rejoiced to
hear that our large vessels of war were not to be laid aside,
and that our seventy-four gun ships were not to be put out of
commission for the sake of using steamers. With regard to
steamboats, he concurred with what had been said upon that
subject; but he did not,think the steam-boat system had
yet been sufficiently developed. There was another point he
wished to allude to, though he was loath to do so; but after li
what had occurred the other evening, he f :lt it to be his duty
to do so. He deprecated very much the issuing of such
an order as that mentioned the other night by the Right Hon.
Secretary to the Admiralty, because, if the commander could
not be entrusted with the power of correcting the men under
him without previously consulting a senior officer, he ought not
to be entrusted with the power at
all.
He would limit the
power of punishment to thirty lashes, and make that number
uniform both for home and foreign service. The punishment
might be reduced by degrees, but he thought it could not con-
sistently with the maintenance of due discipline be abolished j
altogether. As another mode of punishment for slight offence!,
such as drunkenness, &c., he would suggest that the allowances
of meat and grog should be reduced.
Mr. HUME said the subject of improving ship building for
the navy was one of considerable importance to the country,
and did he not know that the matter was under the considera-
tion of the Government he should have felt called upon to
bring it before the House. ;Naval architecture had long been
it was a matter of disgrace to the
neglected in this country, and
country that its models for ship building for the navy had been
taken from the Spaniards, the Dutch, and other nations.
Some improvement ought to be introduced into the naval sys
tem of the country in that respect, and he was very glad to
hear that the matter was being inquired into. With regard to the
subject of promotion, he would defer his observations upon
that point till a return of the promotions had been laid before
the House, and, when that report did come, he should be
prepared to prove that the promotions of past years had been
extravagant and inconsistent. He was no advocate for in-
creasing the wages, nor was he disposed to adopt the sugges-
tion to employ the navy in carrying food from abroad, because
it would derange the commercial system of the country. He
would decidedly do away with corporal punishment, and sub-
stitute for it an improved mode of education. Let the Govern-
ment adopt that course, and they might depend upon it the
men would be more steady and attentive to their duty. He
was an enemy to the system of holding out the inducements ofl
bounties for men to enter the navy, but rather
preferred a steady system of wages which should
Increase exactly in the same ratio as wages in every other part
of the world.
The SPEAKER then left the Chair, and the House went
into a Committee of Supply, Mr. GREENE in the Chair.
NAVY ESTIMATES
Mr. WARD then rose to introduce the navy estimates. He
said—Sir, I have a difficult duty to perform in laying before the
I louse the navy estimates for the year, owing, first, to the large-
-111-se of the expediture ; and, secondly, to the great variety of
the expenditure; but I will still do my best to make them as
intelligible as possible. Now, Sir, the gross estimate for the
year exceeds, by 62,840/ , the estimate proposed last year.
The net vote will exceed that of last year in
a still greater amount, but this arises from the pecuilarit
of the credit account of this year. This year
the credits amount only to 175,0001-, while last year they
amounted to 190,000/. ; so that the apparent excess is 77,0)0/.
more in money than was required last year. I perfectly agree
with the observations that were made the other night by my
lion. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, and my llon.
Friend the Member for Coventry, upon the financial
state of the Exchequer, when they impressed upon
the House that nothing is more deserving the attention
of Parliament, or more required the watchfulnes of Parlia-
ment, the probable tendency of navy estimates to increase in
times of peace. They referred to the standard of 1834 and
len, when the navy estimates only amounted to 4,245,000/.
Perhaps I might ask them why they did not go still further
back ? Why they did not go back to 1817, when the number

of seamen voted for the service of the year was only 17,000 ?
They did not do so, because tlleir own ccmmon sen e ,
told them that in that fact was to be found
our justification. It shows that a country like this cannot fix
Os owh expenditure in matters connected with public expense.
What may be ample provision only two years after t e
termination of an expensive war, affecting every coo-
t inental state, may not prove sufficient twenty years afterwar fe,
I mean the power which is strictly necessary for the purpo es
of defence, not for the purposes of aggrandisement. There is
not, I am sure, a person in the House who will not feel that is
necessary to keep up the power of the country. 1 do not
think that the Government is asking too much, when the dig-
nity and honour of the country is taken into consideration.
What is now the actual increase in the navy estimates, exclu-
sive of the packet stations? 'the expense of the packet ser-
v ce in the year 1830 was 97,0001., in 1831 it was 24,0001.,
and for the present year 820,083/. It will be found that after
deducting this charge of the packet stations, and other charges,
amounting to the sum of 1,564,948/, the total expense for the
maritime defence of the country is only 5,996,0001. It must
be borne in mind that in this country there are no fortified
towns as in France, neither is there any great
military organization upon which to fall back. The
French navy estimates for the present year, with her
immense army and her Paris fortifications amounted to
5,639,000/., the difference between the estimates of the two
countries amounted only to 327.000/. In the year 1846 an
extraordinary credit was taken by the French Government for
a sum of 93,000,009 of francs to be distributed over a period
of seven years. The French navy estimates for the present
year are 114,594,591 frantss, and to this suns must be added
the seventh part of the 93,00.1,000 of francs of the extra-
ordinary credit. It was also proposed by the French Govern-
ment to increase their present number of ships from 358 to
393. It is also to be borne in mind that the French Govern-
ment have expended and are still expending large sums in the
construction of steam basins, in order in some measure to
supply the deficiency of natural harbours, along
the coast at Dunkirk, Calais, Cherbourg, Brest,
Toulon, and numerous other places. At Cherbourg,
44,000,00.) of francs had been expended. At Brest, a
las ge naval establishment was set up, in one of their smitheries
there were 127 furnaces; at Portsmouth, the largest of our
naval stations, there is a smithery which has but 48 furnaces.
I These things, I am sure, ought to operate as a lesson to this
country. It i 3 perfec'ly necessary that some parallel should
be kept up between this country and France. 'i're naval esta-
blishments of this country were in a most disgraceful state ;
there is not a single station where a large vessel can put in
between Woolwich and Constantinople Bermuda,. Malta, and
Devonport were all in a very bad condition. Now all this has
arisen from the miserable parsimony which has recently ex-
isted in this House ; you have been always for cutting down
the estimates, and now in a year of great depression, and
when there is not a shilling but could be well employed
by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, you are called
necessarily to devote a large sum to the purpose of improving
thsse naval establishments, which might have been distributed
over a period of several years. The works at Bermuda no ill be
oqliged to be suspended, in order to finish the works in progress
nearer to home. Now, with reference to the marines, it is
necessary to add 1,503 men to that body, and also to re-orga-
nise the corps of naval engineers. Nothing can be more im-
portant than the adoption of such a step. A Committee was
appointed to inquire into the subject of the naval engineers;
they reported that in consequence of the low wages given in
her Majesty's navy to engineers, that service had become the
last resort of the ignorant and inexperienced. The pay of the
first class engineers at present in her Majesty's navy is 131. Is.
per month. The pay to the first class engineers in the East
India Company's service, with 50/. for outfit, is 15/. per month
for the first three years, 191. 4s. 6d. for the next four years, and
21/. 4s. Gd. for the next four years. The pay in
the merchant service is 25/. per month for India and China,
16/. per month for the Mediterranean, and 211. per month for
the West Indies. In her Majesty's service the engineer is
compelled to rank with the carpenter ; they were not treated
as gentlemen ; they did not feel themselves to be such. The
Committee proposed to divide the engineers into first, second,
and third classes. The chief inspectors of machinery afloat, of
the first class, to rank with, but after masters of the fleet ; the
chief engineer to rank with, but after the master ; the assis-
tant-engineer with, but after the second master. We propose
to give to the inspectors of machinery afloat 25/. per month ;
the eldef engineer, 16/ per month ; engineers, 14!. per month;
assistants in the first. (lass, 121. per month ; in the second class,
91. ; in the third, 8/. per month. The inspector of machinery
afloat is to have the power of reporting upon ail matters con-
nected with the machinery. New when it is considered that
these alterations will not exceed 8,000/., I feel assured that the
Committee will not refuse its assent to the proposition of the
Government. The total amount of the value of the machinery
with which these officers will be intrusted, wi.l be at least
1,4'11,000/, and the proposed additional expense will not be
more than a half per cen'. on the value of the machinery. It is
proposed that a vote of 500 men for 12 months, and 1,000 men
for six months should 1 c taken fir the marines. It is also
proposed to take a grant of 20,009'. for the organisation of
the dockyard corps, this carps will be a very useful body of
men, and can be turned to very valuable account in case of
invasion. The greatest readiness had been evinced by h e
artisans employed in the dockyards to enlist in the corps. The
numbers had been—

At Deptford 9OO
Sheerness
Chatham
Portsmouth
Plymouth
13, mbroke

It would be most essential to the discipline of this body of men
that they should be instructed, and have as much as possible
their condition improved, measures will be proposed for that
object. It is proposed to extend to the marines in
somt modified form, the benefit of the Bill for re..
during the neriod of enlistment. Of course, the
peculiarities of the nature of the service in which the marines
were engaged, should be taken into due consideration. It is
intended to bring forward some measures for the improvement
of the condition of the marines, and for placing them substan-
tially upon the same footing as the army. With respect to the
punishment in the navy, I do not wish to go again Into that
question. The order recently issued by the Board of Admiralty,
has, it appears, been received by some Hon. Members favour-
ably ;by others not so. It is. however, proposed to introduce a
measure for the infliction of secondary punishments, while the
vessel is in harbour. The Government also propose to introduce a
Bill to legalise the apprenticeship of boys in her Majesty's service.
, These two 1311's we wish to bring in, and we intend that the
system which at present exists, when a ship enters the dock-
yard, shall be in a great degree done away with. We pro-
pose that if any man of good character desires to remain
upon the ship's books he may do so, and six weeks' leave of
absence shall be given, to enable bins to have a " run " on
shore, while his clothes, kit, &e. can be kept in the dockyard.
Now, Sir, there is another subject to which I wish to direct
the attention of the House, and which 1 ask it to provide for
under two separate heads. I ask a total vote for salaries and
wages of 810,6641., and you will observe that this is less
than the vote which has been taken for many years past.
The vote for 1843 and 1844 was 779,3961., for 1845 and
1846 951,808'. and there is consequently a ;reduction; in the
present vote of nearly 150,000/. Now, when the flouse con-
siders that the stock of each of the steam factories amounts to
more than a million of money, speaking in round numbers ;
and that the charges for new works amounts to 526,0001., 1
think that, with these facts before us, you will agree with me
that th t question involving, as it does, an expenditure of three
millions, is worthy the attention of Parliament. The House,
I trust, will see the impolicy and inconvenience of leaving all
the affeirs of the steam factories to be conducted as now, in
one place, and that at the least accessible point. Look at
France, she has factories at Cherbourg, Brest, Toulon, Ro-
chelle, and other ports; while England has only Woolwich.
—(Hear, hear.) It is, therefore, this imperative ne-
cessity that induced the late Ministry to commence at
Portsmouth, Devonport, and Sheerness, magnificent
steam factories with all their concomitants. The house must
be aware that in these establishments the utmost vigilance and
carefulness is requisite to prevent any misapplication of the
Government stores, and to insure a necessary and wise eco-
nomy. But as economy and vigilance are virtues not easily
commanded in Government establishments, it is cur intention
to make the individuals employed in these feel that their own
interests as private members are dependent on a proper and
fitting attention to the interests of the country. Yon cannot
have that watchfulness in her Majesty's dockyards that charac-
terise the establishments of private companies ; you must,
therefore, trust some, and as they have to deal with a large
amount of money, it is better that you should appeal to their prin-
cip!es
than vainly endeavour to coerce them into a rigid system of
morality —( Har, hear.) You must show them that their
chances of promotion depend upon their merits, and you must
prove to them that these merits shall have fair play.—
(Cheers.) You must show them that they have a higher au-
thority than that of their own officers to appeal to. Ido not
hesitate to say, that promotion for merit has hitherto been
worse than a de id letter, nay, it has been often said, that a lot.
freehold was better than any testimony from a superior officer.
We have seen that when a vacancy has occurred in the dockyard,
applications have reached the Board of Admiralty from every
quarter but the right one recommending a successor. The
printed regulations were no doubt excellent, but they
were a dead letter. There never hal been any-
thing corresponding to them in the practice of the Admi-
ralty.—(Hear, hear.) I shall riot say for how many years it
has been the rule that meritorious exertions should go unre-
warded. Now Ido not blame any particular Board for the
continuance of this system. I believe that all Boards have been
highly culpable, and if I want pooof of this, I will find it in the
feet th it no Secretary of the Admiralty has dared to leave
behind him the correspondence which has taken place on this
subject of promotions.—( Laughter. ) Sir, I say that that
system is a most baneful and demoralising system. There are
12,000 artisans belonging to, or hoping to belong to these
establishments, these men have no prospect beyond the dock-
yard, they look forward to becoming foremen, and from fore-
men to inspectors, and from inspectors, dock masters, until they
hope to reach a status which will give them perhaps 600/. per
annum with a free house to live in. Thus a proper emula-
tion will be created, because you show the artisan that his pro-
motion is certain, because based upon fair and intelligible
principles. fly the system that prevailed, you had no hope
that good conduct would be noticed or bad conduct checked,
unless such exceeded what was called the dock-yard license.
The result was, that a sort of apathy was engendered in the
dock-yards, which no authority could check, and which there
was no getting rid of. Now this was a system which the Noble
Lord the First Lord of the Admiralty felt peculiarly annoying,
and I saw a great deal more of ifs evils, because many things
are exhibited in the Secretary's department which reaches not
higher. I must say that I think all the defects of the system
are to be attributed to the mode of distributing the patronage of
the Admiralty. If the House will only
consider the vast
amount of power, for good or evil, which the officers in these
establishments possess, if you consider that every one of the
180 inspectors expend on an average 10,000/. a year, they
must concede that an improved system of p romotion —a system
which will connect the interests of the Government with their
own— will be a desirable one. I shall now state the principle
on which we intend to proceed. We wish to have, in the first
place, an improved educational test for all who desire to be
workmen. We wish to place schools on a superior footing to
what they are now, for we conceive that it is better to give
the boys access to the best system of education that can be
commanded, than to allow them, as by the present course, to
attain only an imperfect education from some of the officers
of the dockyard. In every application to the
dockyard, we shill require from the apprentices a
schsol as well as other certificates, and if considered
qualified, they shall be admitted into the mould dock. Having
conducted themselves in a manner to give satisfaction, they
will then be admitted as shipwrights, and they will then be in
some degree left to themselves. We wish also to introduce a
system of periodical returns, that is, the master of a gang of
twelve men, shall make a return, over a fortnight, to aoo a-
man ; the foreman make another return once at month,
il to
of
master; and the master once a quarter to the
Admiralty. Again, when a vacancy occurs, three names shall
be submitted to the master, who shall strike off the one least
qualified fur the vacancy, and the Board of Admiralty shall
choose to supply it one of the two names remaining. We pro.
pose that the salaries of the masters
shall be raised at once
from 100/. per annum, as at present. to 1251. I have sub-
mitted these regulations to the governors of the
different dockyards, and they all express their ex-
treme satisfaction with the measure. I_
ishall new
allude very shortly to the different points in time
.B 1 1. In vote
No. there is an increase of 31,100-,, which isintended to
defray the expense of the addition to the marine force, and
the corps of steam engineers. Under vote No. 2 there is a
reduction of 4,220/. The Government have taken the cost of
provisions at present, and have calculated on the coming har-
vest, when every article shall have reverted to their former

prices.—(Hear, hear.) We have tliseentinued. in enn
qiienee, the cola ink. Ley 01 J p.'; il-
ment, heretofore, has been in the habit of takir:g.
Under vote No. 3 there was an increase of 7,3401. ; this in-
eluded the steam department. and comprised 2,0001. for post-
age, and 1,2001. for clerks. I will not now go into the mini r
points, but will confine myself to the principal items. And for
the same reason I will pass over votes 4 and 5. With regard to '
No. 6, we propose to take 7,2911. for the it crease of the sala-
ries at home, 2.785/. f, r other parts of the inspection and
measurement of the docks. and S;o't/. to Mit. Grant. at tle
Clarence Dock, as an indemnity to him till he is promoted,
when the allowance will cease. I will pass over
No. 7. For No. 8 we propose to take 8,377/. for
attendance in the dockyards, and 3 2 W'. of that will be
for the inspection of the dockyards 2,010.'. for trsieing
in the dockyards, 2,9651. for the metal-mills at Chatham. by
which alone a saving of 6,0001. per annum will be effected in
onse:_oience of the work being done by Government. We
propose to add 10,0001. to the wages of the steam department
at Woolwich. That Item may appear large, but the great
convenience which the accommodation will give to the great
necessity which exists of having persons to execute the works
required by Government steamers justify, in our judgment,
such an outlay. We have 735 men now employed in the
factory there. I find that in 1844-45 there were 27 steamers
repaired at Woolwich ; in 1845 46 there were 36 ; and in
1846.47, during a period of nine months, 29 steamers. The
value of the work dune in there periods respectively wa549,000/.,
58,000/., and 76,000/. The value of the engines was 50/. per
horse power, and the cost of repairs 31. per horse power per
year, and if they had been done in a private establishment, the
cost of this 41,000 horse power would be 328,001'/. You now
pay 60,th10/. in wages, of which 10.000/. is more than the esti-
mate of last year. Undee vote 10 there was a decrease of
89,9951. There was a decrease in iron steam-boats of 78,000/.,
which consisted of contracts not yet completed. I will not go
into the question of building large steam-boats without further
trial, which has been referred to by the Hen. Baronet, but I
sincerely hope the experiments that may be made
will justify the good opinion formed of them. I have
now to come to No. 11. In this vote we propose
to have an increase of 32,719/. for new works. This will ap-
pear a large sum ; but it must be recollected that in former
years sums that were placed under votes 8,9, and 10, arid ap-
peared in these votes respectively, were now collected under a
generic head, and placed in vote 11. Those only which related
specially to votes 8,9, and 10, were charged to those votes. If
the House will allow me, I shall now state in order, one at a
time, the other items which we propose. We have taken
167,000/. for Portsmouth, and I should think the steam basin
there will be ready in the month of May. We have saken
10,000/. to complete the works at Woolwich, and 27,600'. to
construct new marine barracks. For Plymouth we have taker,
120,000/., for the basin and docks at Devon port 30,000/., and for
Haul-bow-line, near Cork, 10.0001. For Malta, where we have
a dock ready for the largest steamer, we purpose taking
10,000/. I think I have now finished all the points to which I
intended to refer in this statement, and I can only say that
though the expenditure may be very great, I do not see,
considering all the facts to which 1 have adverted—seeing
what every country is now doing, and that we are now paying
for the niggardliness of former years—that we can reduce the
estimates to a smaller amount. I think that the vote for
wages in dockyards, under a system of restriction, and
having a check upon the repairs, will tend ultimately to a
saving in this department. It is possible—certainly there will
be a reduction in the expense of iron steamers of 85,000/.
I hope that there will be some reduction in the estimates
for steam machinery in subsequent years, in consequence of the
change we ars about to make. The system will be placed on
a better footing than it now stands upon, and the probability is
that, in a few years, these extraordinary expenses will en-
tirely disappear.—.( Hear, hear. ) I believe that I have stated
to the House that there are 165,00 n/. of excess for the year
1845 and 1846, but the responsibility will not rest with us.
That sum shall constitute the first vote.
Admiral BOWLES, who was very imperfectly heard, de-
fended the Admiralty from the charges brought against it by
Sir C. Napier. Ile would wish to see as large a squadron
kept up in the year 1847 as had been maintained during the
past year, for the race of naval officers who had seen actual
war was now rapidly declining, and it was necessary that the
young naval officers should have opportunities of such exercise
as would enable them to keep up the natiozal honour
in the event of a war. He objected also to the per-
nicious system of detaining ships at particular stations
for any length of time. Many ships had not the opportunity
of proper t xere:se in consequence of their being thus de-
tained, and the race of officers IIOW growing tip were thus
most materially injured, anti hindered :rum acquiring a proper
knowledge of their profession.
Captain PECHELL was glad to hear the observations which
had fallen from the Gallant Admiral, and that a new system
was to spring up which would effectually hinder that jobbing in
the dockyards which hail hitherto prevailed. The lion. Gen-
tlemen in his opening statement wished to show the reasons
for the measure of the estimate. The House did not require
that knowledge, for it was obvious to every person who took
up a newspaper that the measure was necessary ; but he should
be glad to know sometliiing about the condition of the squa-
drons on the coast of Africa. Those vessels were detained there
three years, and he thought that the system as at preset pur-
sues with regard to the capture of slaves was one fraught with
the grossest jobbing, for, what with fees and
other charges made in the Vice-Admiralty Courts,
very little found its way into the Exchequer of
the admiralty for the benefit of the seamen. He thought it
absolutely necessary that the system should be reformed. lie
was also glad to hear that the salaries of the pursers in the
navy had been raised by the Government, for, in his opinion,
they were a most deserving class of officers ; but he was still of
opinion that the Governnaent had not effectually carried out
the recommendation of the Commissioners with reference to
the higher class of officers. He would conclude his reference
to the masters and pursers, with the hope that the. Hon. Gen-
tleman below (Mr. Ward) would take their case into his most
serious consideraiion. There was another point to which he
would refer. They had done great injury to the service by the
indiscriminate admission of youths into the navy, without proper
inquiry. They bad admitted a number of thieves and vagabonds
into the service. This was a matter which should be looked
into. With regard to the building of ships, he considered that
fair competition should be allowed, so that builders who were
competent might be induced to come forward and take a part
in the construction of the ships. They had also been promised
a reformation in the constitution of courts martial ; but from
recent cases which had taken place, this did not appear to have
been the case. Among these cases there was the one of the
captain of the Sphinx, which was lost off the Isle of Wight.
That officer was called on to criminate himself, and
had been degraded from his rank. All these

things showed that a revision was necessary. Now, that
they had had again another Reform Ministry in, he thought
the question of Courts-martial should be fully inquired into,
and redress given. He had also to complain that the members
of the coast guard engaged on the west coast of Ireland were
not treated is they ought to be. At the present time, though
provisions in Ireland were excessively dear, and in many cases
difficult to be had for money, no advance in their pay had been
made, and no promotion was held out to them. He trusted
all the matters to which he had referred would command the
serious attention of the Government with the object of effect-
ing a reformation. _ _ _

'hr. BOWRING congratulated the lion. Member (Mr.
Ward) for the improvement which was made in the arrange-
ment of the accounts. This would appear to have been done
in pursuance of the recommendation of the Committee of
Public Accounts, a few years ago. He said he was happy that
the principle had been adopted, partially in the public accounts,
of excluding all credits in aid of the departments ; and he
hoped that the column of credits would be entirely done away
with.

Mr. FITZROY wished to ask the Right lion. Gentleman,
the Secretary for the Admiralty, whatwas the object of taking a
vote of 27,500 men, at a time when they had 4,0.0 men
more than the complement on the books. That was an excess
which they were not accustomed to have on the books. Ile
did not think with many in England that the ships could be
manned and the harbours of refuge prepared all at a moment's
notice. Practical men knew that that was not so. but he did
thtnk:that some of the minor details ought to be omitted He
thought there ought to be some means got for coaling their
steam-ships. lie understood that 100 tons was all they could
put aboard a s'ay. Now in that case an impediment might
easily be created in a time of war, and a steam feet without
coals would become mere logs. He was also glad to hear the
Hon. Gentleman's plans with regard to the dockyards ; he
admired the principle of it, having had his attention specially
drawn to the dockyards while he was in the Admiralty, and
he would c2rtainly give the measure his support when it was
brought in.
Atter a few words feom Capiain BERKELEY,
Mr. WARD said he had just consulted with Lord John
Hay, under whose care a plan was being carried out for coaling
their steam vessels. He found that the construction of a Coal
Board would cost from 40,0:10/. to 50,000/., but they had
adopted one of the old hulks, where they had put an engine on
board, and they were enabled to put 100 tons an hour on board
the vessels.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that while he held a place in
the Admiralty, he had never diminished the naval estimates,
except so far as that could be done without diminishing
the efficiency of the navy. ( Hear, hear.) Hut he
had risen that moment to express his regret that there
should he an increase a constant increase in the
naval estimates ; and he heard the Hon. Gentleman with
alarm state that, in his opinion, the estimates for the present
year were not so large as they would yet require to be. But
he regretted one thing—he very much regretted one delicate
point which had been touched upon by the Hon. Gentleman
he meant the payment of the men. The Hon. Gentleman
said it would be necessary to raise the wages of the seamen in
the Queen's service up to those given in the merchant service,
or near to them. But he (Sir J. Graham) entirely dissented
from that proposal. If they brought the Queen's service into
competition with the merchant service, the moment that some
new arrangement was made by the Government in her Ma-
jesty's service, a counter- movement would be made in
the merchant service, and there could be no seeing
the end of the expence which it would entail
upon the country.—( Hear.) He thought it unhappy that
the subject had been mentioned at all, and the subject, if con-
sidered, would naturally bring on with it the consideration of
the marines and the army. He did not propose the postpone-
ment of it to a future day, for he entirely dissented from the
principle. Under such a system there wouldldieoofpebnoed boundless
pesas
plan of boundless expense on the one hand, n
expectation on the other, and he thought it coulda not be
He did
main-
tained even if it were to be entered upon.
hope that it would not be entered upon without the
sanction of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or, indeed,
without the sanction of the Government. He would not have
made these observations, but that it gave the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman the opportunity of making an explanation of his views.
Mr. WARD said that the Right Hon. Baronet had entirely
misunderstood what had fallen from him. The Honourable
Member for Montrose had entered fully into the matter, and he
was quite aware of the importance of the subject, and of the de-
licacy of the question which had been mooted, and he was at
the same time aware that such a step ought not to lie taken
without the sanction of the Government. The Gallant Officer
had alluded to the number of the desertion., and
the object which he (Mr. Ward) had in view
was, to offer such inducements to the seamen, that from
the common ranks the men might rise to be petty officers,
and thus by offering the inducement of promotion so to elevate
the moral character of the men as to have the advantage of a
better class in the navy. That was the question which he had
mooted.
Sir J. GRAHAM had only spoken of the disadvantage of
confusing the positions of the petty officers and the seamen.
Mr. WARD—To that he was alluding. He bought there
would be no difficulty whatever in arranging the plan. If they
allowed the seamen to rise in rank, they would give all the
inducement that was necessary for vtting good men into the
service. That was the only question—he never cont nn•
plated anything further—for the House could not but he aware
that he could not carry out this design without the sanction of
the Government, and he dic not at all intend to permanently
raise the wages of the seamen.
Sir C. NAPIER was much disappointed to hear the decla-
ration which had just been made by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man the Secretary of the Navy, for one of his main objects in
desiring this increase in the wages of the men and the petty
officers in the navy was, to oblige the merchants to raise the
wages of the persons in their employment. They \Named to
keep the men in the service, and how were they to do that
unless they gave them as good remuneration for their exertions
as they could obtain elsewhere. The labourer was alwayss
worthy of his hire. It was said that there weres:l,oo',)British
seamen engaged Li America at the present moment, and it
was well known that the greater part of the mercantile
He
marine in America was being worked by British seamen.

• wanted to bring 1,4, from America.
th it tot, etr.re.t.,r) to die Adnair,,u) would 0.0
of from 3s. to 4s. in their pay, that he would
object which he had in view, for he was quite at
would never get gocd men into the servrce
them better than they did at present.
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT thought that if '
to the Admiralty would Inok into the matter h,
that, with the exception of a few instances. the pa.
men in the navy was not lower than that of men
6a,-,t service, and that, considering the low pri
slops were supplied, and all the other advantage
end cf a certain period the seamen in the
be in the possessi',n of more hard
any one would obtain from the mercht.
There was one thing that he thought was not prudent in
statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman, and that was the at
position to reduce the estimate for the victualling depart
of the navy below the ratio of former years. Ile proposef
the
take five per cent. from the estimates of this department °would
navy. If he would take the highest point last year, he „r a
find it was absolutely necessary to take the estimates
higher number of men than those they aholu.'eull
required at the time, and in the present year e,Pe,c,12.0,
it seemed to be a matter of indispensable protium "'" t
causes might arise for extending the number of ml
was impossible for the Noble',Lord the Secretary t.‘
Affairs to see precisely what number of men he wor
If they would take the experience of the last few
consider the various wants of the empire, the ext
colonial possessions, and all the various requisition,
been made upon the Admiralty, he would see that
partment at least it was not prudent to reduce
mates. With respect to the dockyards, he
enter into any detail, but he understood that promo',
to take place on the recommendation of the officei
dockyards.
Mr. WARD expressed his dissent. Such was
the ease.

—Mr. S. HERBERT had had some considerable
and he believed that it would he dangerous to trus.
the recommendation of the officers in the dockyards
officers enjoyed a position of great local importance.
would recommend any man either because he was a
Tory. They had greater faith in Lord Auckland sr
continued at the Admiralty than in any other
The only plan to render such a system available
take the recommendations of the highest officers
several establishments.

Mr. WARD said there was to be a chain
mendations. beginning with the superintendent.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL said that he observed t
recommendation in the estimates for the
of 600,0001, on the coast of Ireland ; he wished it had btl
more, for he felt assured nothing would tend more to proure;
the interests of his country than the establishment of lOr
naval arsenals on the coast.
Mr. BARING was glad to understand what was the. W.
tention of Governthent, and not the less so because it
mated a desire on their parts to maintain the whole of ti'ej
public service in a full state of efficiency. The House hit
not only given its sanction to this policy, but it had al's();
lutely forced it upon the Government ; at the same Atl°c.
he must add a hope that this endeavour to keep ur I°r„nt,
and efficiency would not be confined to one departin"b"je
only. Still he hail listened with great attention to the at.
statement of his Right Hon. Friend, and was rejoiced to find tunst
he had devoted so much time and attention to the itnrrtai.
subject of keeping up the national defences, and he must be in
lowed to express a hope that Government would continue, t
the course they had so ably begun. With regard to the sub/e,fr
of promotion, be, with the Honourable Member !vb
Dorsetshire, trusted the Government would receive rl,t,.
caution recommendations from the officers of the dockyar'';
In any promotions they intended to make, they ought raiaerths
trust to the discretion and judgment of the Admiralty, tb,t,°„ot
prejudiced recommendation of dockyard officials. He
the
mean to insinuate that there was anything like jobbing in tie..
dockyards, but still he was glad to hear the Right Hum Ge"
man the Secretary for the Admiralty was determined teile°l;f,
port a system of promotion founded upon merit.--(H
hear.) Perhaps he would have some dieulty in carrP
ffi eid
out so laudable a design, but he trusted that that prospect
not deter him from carrying his praiseworthy object into eild
With regard to excess in the vote, it must be borne in 1°
and
that it was to meet the deficiencies of the past two yearn
therefore it ought not to be objected to. Ile navy est'l, 7t,
were not singular in these deficiencies, for they applied alle,°`this
ev,.ry branch of the service, and he, for one, was rejoice':
system was about to receive a deathblow.--(Hear, hear.) at
Ceptain BAINBRII)GE made a few remarks, the pure
of which were inaudible in the gallery. nen'
Mr. GOULBURN explained that the excess of the ex/. re
diture over the estimates in the year 1845 arose from the desciir
on the part of the Government, to carry out the reeonireelttate
tions of the Commissioners apj ointed to inquire into the
of the defenees of the country. a the
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the statements made by
Hon. Member the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, as t° re.
cause of the expenditure, was perfectly satisfactory.
lit
memb red, in the vear 1840, that the Government rile.,
!Toper to go beyond the estimates after the prorogation e' as
liament, but upon the ri -assembling of the House a isotviritb
passed upon the subject, indemnifying the Governmeni• to
respect to the present expenditure of the navy, he had sta', na)
the Noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty (Lord Auckl2t
that whatever sum might be voted, it would be necessary ,f 1
ensure a proper expenditure of the sums. He did not thin%
when it was considered, what strides steam navigationt
the
taking, and the immense sums expended by France, Oa' &
House could justly entertain any opinion nn the subject °the
reduction of the expenses of the navy. It was the duty "f jt
executive to provide against the risk of any emergency's,
was not to be supposed that because this country once I—be
nested a powerful marine, that therefore it should na'r,;„,
content and stand still. With respect to the abuse of ra"s7,
in the dock-yards, measures would be taken by the Achnir°4B,
to prevent as much as possible the recurrence of the abuthe.
An eminent and gallant officer, who was at present out o ,
country, had stated that the labour of those persons, hat v111:f
political influence, was much more inefficient than tha
et
hired workman, who held no such influence. He ws';p-
und •
t.
prepared to say that the scheme of his Right Hon• a-r•--
would he in every respect successful, but as they would re
quire to report to the House next session, the Hon. Gentle'
man opposite would have an opportunity of suggesting 'e•a's
more effectual a3stem for effecting these desirable improve'
• mento.
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said that many of the aPriint''
ments which the late Government had made, were to indiaiduals
who held not the same views with the Admiralty. If the
Right Hon. the Secretary of the Admiralty wished to ascertain
the correctness of every. appointment, he would find that his
time would be too limited for that purpose. •
The vote was then agreed to. of
The sum of 1,325,8201. was then voted for the salanie
seamen and marines, and another vote of 635,4521. for tii°
victualling department was also granted.
reported
On the motion of Mr. HUME, the Chairman .
pregiess, and the Committee obtained leave to sit again °
Monday.
The House then resumed.
Captain PECHELL moved for certain returns connected
with the operation of the Poor Removal Act of last session.
Agreed to.
THE DESTITUTE RELIEF SUPERVISION BILL

FOR IRELAND.
On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL, this Bill was read
first time, and ordered to be read a second time this u 4/
se'nnight.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
!louse adjourned.

PETITIONS ON PRIVATE BILLS'
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
(Room 22, before Mr. Examiner SMITH.)
OPPOSED LIST.
LEEDS, DEWSBURY, AND MANCHESTER R--IL
.0
WAY (OSSETT BRANCH AND DEWSBURY
MORELY STATIONS).
Opposition withdrawn, and standing orders eomplied
~y
KILMARNOCK AND AIR DIRECT RAMIS'
(RAILWAY FROM KILMARNOCK TO AYR, WITP
BRANCH TO THE HARBOUR OF AYR). of
This petition was resumed. It occupied the whole
the day.
(Room 23, before Mr. Examiner MAY.)
OPPOSED LIST.
SOUTH DEVON RAILWAY EXTENSION AND
AMENDMENT.
This case was closed to-day. Standing orders not COrr
plied with.
EDINBURGH AND GLASGOW RAILWAY (AMES -
MENT OF ACTS.)
In this case the standing orders were complied with.
GREAT SOUTHERN AND WESTERN RAILW;
EXTENSION (PORTARLINGTON TO TULLAMOREq
Standing orders complied with.
Birmingham and Oxford Junction, and Birmingham. Wolver;
hampton, and Dudley Railways Amalgamation (propose,'
Amalgamation of the Birmingham and Oxford Junction'
and Birmingham, Wolverhampton, and Dudley ItaU`w3Y
Companies, with power of transfer to or Amalgam/1600
with the Great Western Railway Company).
Standing orders complied with.
Adjourned till to-morrow (this day).

[A ERTISEM ENT.] —The Registered Paletot of
Llama cloth, the most fashionable coat for both the present
and approtelting seasons. still retains the same moderate
price, which, with its usefulness and gentlemanly appor"
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by special command for their Royal Highnesses Prince
Albert, Prince George of Cambridge, Prince Edward of Saxe
Weimar, his Grace the Duke of Wellington, and the several
royal visitors to the British Court. In London it can only
be purchased of the pa'entees, 11. J. and D. Nicoll, Court
tailors, 114, Regent-street, and 22, Cornhill. Agents foF
Liverpool, Dawbarn and Son, 80ld-street ; for Dublin, Gen,i
Maclona, Molesworth-street ; for Birmin4ltam, Wareing an:
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towns.
IMPORTANT FAMILY MEDICINE.—FraMptOII'S Pill
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They remove head-ache, sickness, dizziness, pains in tile
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spirits; while, to those of a full habit and free livers, who are
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ls. 11/2d. per box. See the name of " Thomas Proat,
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[ADvEnTisEmENT.]—AN EXTRAORDINARY CURE of
A HAD LEG, AT HORNCASTLE, BY HOLLOWAY'S PILLS AND 01111,
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een
legs, frequently enduring the most excruciating pain. He had
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111117.75.
,sth
On Feb. 21, at Pevonport, the lady of Captain F. J. Isacke,
Fusiliers, of a daughter, st,ll- born.
On Feb. 21. the lady of cieorge French, Esq., of Lincoln's Inn, bar-
rister. ~f a son.
On Feb. 24, at Long Ditton, the lady of Charles Corkran, Esq„
of a son.
On Feb. 25, at Irampstead, Mrs. Thomas Butcher, of a sort.
On Feb. 25, In Goswal-street, the lady of Charles Gordon, Jun.'
Esq., of a (-taught, r.

MARRIED.
On Feb. 23, at Trinity Church, Regent's-park, Captain 13Yug
Creagh, to Charlotte Jane Minchin, daughter of John Minchln, Esq''
hei Britannic Majesty's Consul at Fayal.

DIED.
On Feb. 21, Albert Walker, son of IL Bell, Esq., of Gower-stree rigid
01.1 F,b. 24, at Brighton, Matilda diary, daughter of ItegaL"

Graham, Esq. _ ~ ,
relict
On Feb. 24, at Thames Ditton, Surrey, Mrs. Charlotte Bette,
of the late J. Betts, F.sq., aged 72.
On Feb. 25. at Richmond, Surrey, Geraldine, only daughter of the
late Capiain Winton:, of the E. I. C.'s service, aged 14.

Loncirm : Printed ern! Published by MURDO YOUNG. of No. I fa.
,Strand, Printer. at Tri, Sun No.lll, 4tnind, in the Precinct
of the Saw,. In the County of Middlesex, Saturday, Fe.
bruary 27, 1847.

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