The Sun.
London, England, 1812-06-27 00:00:00

NEW WRIT.

A new Writ was moved for the: Borough of
Doevnton, in the room of Sir Thomas Bonier,
appointed Attorney-General.
Mr. CREEVE'Y wished to know whether it was
intended to promote the Master of the King's
Household to .a Judge's. scat ? Such a, rumour
was afloat. .He understood that it was the • de-
sire of the Master, and that his Majesty's Govern-
ment, conceding to that desire, had advised the
appointment. ,If so, it would furnish one among
the many instances in which the situation of
Judges had been filled for political
.motives.—
Should the answer be in the affirmative, he should
think it his duty to make the appifintment the
foundation of a motion, thinking that it -was in-
compatible with the duties of the office, and con-
sidering that a Judge should be independent of
the Crown, that he should be a Member of Par-
liament.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER'--" Of
all the customs which have been introduced lat-
terly into this House of asking questions and de-
manding answers, this I think is the most irre-
gular.
Mr. WHITBREAD observed, that the Learned
Attorney-General held the office of a Welsh
Judge, and the same time officiated as Counsel
on the Circuit. This he thought was not g.orrect
in fact, it had been the subject of, discussion
some time since, when the propriety of excluding
Judges from seats in this House was brought for,.
ward. He thought it rather-extraordinary that
no answer 'Was returned to the question of his
Hon. Friend.
The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER was not
aware that he could answer a qUestion as to what
might be the private intentions of his Honourable
Friend. A question of fact might be answered,
and to' any question of that' kind he should be
prepared.
Mr. KENRICK hachm objection to answer the
qitestiOn of the Honourable Gentleman. Cer-
tainly no notificatiOn of his (Mr. K.'s) being ap-
pointed had reached his ears, or he should not
have seen in his place At the same time, he
.saw no reason why, after many years of attention
to his professional duties; be might not look for-
ward with honourable ambition to a station of the
kind now alluded to.

The motion for a new Writ was then agreed to.

NEW TAXES.-EXCISE BILL.

_
Mr. LUSH INGTON brought up the Report of the
Excise Bill.

Mr. BROUGHAM took occasion to object to the
Leather Tax; as being calculated to burthen the
lower orders of people. he considered it there-
fore as a very impolitic measure. He was not
disposed to grumble at War Taxes, beCause, if
the people would have war, they must contribute
to its support. The preSent Tax-would fall heavi-
ly upon the farmer in a middling way : he meant
those of'one hundred pounds a year, who em-
ploy not more than two pair of horses and three
Servants. The tax, he contended, operated in
every way to his disadvantage, for it fell upon the
beast before his hide was tanned, and consequent-
ly pvevented the farmer from stocking his .farm.
The upper classes in. Society were not taxed in
proportion; in respect AO leather, as the lower
classes. The farmer's 'servant, for instance,
would pay ls.' 6d. per pair more for his slioe ;
pair of horse's harness would cost 12s. more, For

a farm of IClO'actex,'• an additional tax of 21. per
annum would -be -lal4l. Was this addition, he
•would'ii4k, nothing? Taking -t•:.e 'farms on an
averaoirt-, throughout England and Wales, the rental
121. per axre, and this •tax would be the Means
of adding one-sixth to t' e Property-Tax, which
the farmer already pays. He therefore. entered:
' his protest against the Bill,: and against 'all nib-
bliag taxes on Hashandry.. 'l'heTax- on Leather,
as applied to shoes, was Brie it ..nifected the
lower, more.than the higher classes. -His ltight
Hon. Frieint by it !lad 'got bold of the feet of the
lower classes; be-wished•rather that hehad taken
hold of the headS and.hands of the upper orders,
by a tax on Hats and Gloves,. He objected to the
report being'br6nght up.
Lord ALTifORPE coincided in opinion with his
Hon, Friend. . The two 7 main' objections to the.
Tax on Leather were, first, the great consump-
tion of the article in the army; and secondly, the
inequality of- the pressure upon tha different or-
ders in society, the_ lower orders being , more •
heavily burthened by it. The tradesmen.em-•
employed in this branch of trade had informed
him that nearly one-sixth of the leather used
was consumed by the Government. There was
one great objection to taxation of this kind. The
tax, too, was sci pressing upon the agriculturalist,
that it was impossible he could bring np a fa-,
mily, every article of life being already so high.
He should.,
.therefore, oppose it—and. mop ~y
" That instead of now,' the Bill be reported
this day six months."

Mr. BENNETT seconded the motion, for the
reason•, Wore stated by his Hon. Friends.

On the question beink put on the amendment,
Mr. LOCKHART adverted to the schedule of the
rates, Which he thought was so obscure as to be
unintelligible to some persons. He recommended;
therefore, a consolidation of them into one. The
taxes on Leather and Horses • were, in his opi-
nion, a tax upon Agriculture. He Was not dis-
posed to object "to any tax, if the necessities of
the State demanded it s:but he wished to see it
equally laid, and less oppressive upon.the lower
orders of the community. The Tithe Owner,
he observed, •reaped all the profits of the
Farmerand he stated, that several , instances
had come to his knowledge, Co justify him in the
assertion.

General TARLETON objected to the tax on
leather, as materially affecting the army.
Sir THOMAS TURTON considered the tanners
would be greatly affected by it. There were
upwards of two thousand who had on hand up-
wards of eighteen months stock ;' those in York-
shire and other parts would feel its operation ma-
terially.
Mr. Alderman COMBE made a few observations,
which it was impossible-to hear.
Mr. BRAND also observed, that the tanners
would be very much
,injured by the tax, for the
reasons stated by the Honourable Baronet ; they
thought that unless some counteracting duty n'as
put bn to prevent the loss which would be felt in
the home consumption, they must transfer their
trade to Ireland.

Mr: BIDDULPH objected to any new taxation
until the utmost economy was evinced in the ma-
nagement of the existing revenue. For many
years a report of a Committee of that HotiSe on
the public expenditure, had laid on the table un-
attended to. Sonic of the retrenchments recom-
fnenJed .in that report were, it. seemed, consi-
dered to.comprebend too large,- sums, others too
small sums, but, for his part, he thought that
there was no object 'of economy either too large
or too _small to be adopted. He stated it to be
his intention, at some future -period, to .propose
a Resolution to the House, that they would not
agree to the imposition of any additional taxes on
the people, until they had ascertained that the
present taxes were fairly and impartially collect-
ed, and• that all due attention was paid to econo-
my in their application to the purposes of the
State.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
•he had not risen sooner to address the House on
this qUestion, because he was desirous previously
to collect the various opinions that existed in' the
House on the'subject under their. consideration.
The Hon and Learned Gentleman who comthenc--
ed the present discussion, had admitted the neces-•
sity of additional taxation • he might ars-6 have ad-
mitted that, as during the fast century -every article
of use and consumption had been subjected to im-
post, it was nearly 'impracticable to resort to a
mode of taxation, but an increase of the existing
duties. It so happened, thatsno increase -of duty .
.had taken place on the article which was-the sub-,
ject of debate for 10.1 years, during which period
almost every other article of use or luxury had ua-
dergone a gradual increase of taxation. The ob-
jections to the proposed tax on hides and
skins- resolved . themselves into three classes ;
those who maintained that it would be injurious
to agriculture; those who maintained that it
would bear severely, and with-partiality, on the
poor; and those' who maintained that . would
Materially --affect the manufacturing interest.—
With respect to the first kind of objection--name-
ly, that the increase of the duty would be in-
jurious to agriculture, if even all the calculations
of the Learned and Hon. Gentleman opposite were
admitted, the case he had made out for the far-
mers appeared to be that, taking into the account
all the taxes they were liable to, with the additibn
of this increased duty, they were subject to a taxa-
tion of something less than two pounds for every
hundred acres, But the Honourable and Learned
,Gentleman had in some degree furnished an
answer to his own argument ; for he • told the
House, that if the. farmers would but adopt
throughout the kingdom the improved practice of
agriculture which prevailed in some districts, the
advantages which they would thence derive,
would amply compensate for any increase of taxa-
tion. - There could be no doubt that this improved
practice would by degrees siread itself over the
whole country; and that human labour, and the.
labour of horses, would be much abridged by the
gradual introduction of machinery to perform the
various agricultural operations, such as thrashing,
&c. to Which it was 'applicable, But the fact was, that
after all, the,proposed increase of duties would not
be at the rate of above 4d. or sd. an acre to the
farmer:
,Could it be supposed that this would occh-
sion any material injury ? Still less could it be ap-
prehended (as seemed to be imagined by some

Iron. (lentlernen) that it would cause any d

notion in the existing rents, of farms.
- -

for the first species or objection.

He wouli

ceed -to the second—namely, that the propose.'
crease of duty would materially and partia..!,7
fect poor people. Than thiN, nothing aT)i,
to him more unfounded. He admitted tii.kt

poor must feel their share of the proposed increase,
As they always felt their share of an incre ise of
any of the duties on articles, either of necessifv,—
or which custom had introduced into generai cc
sumotioiL It was- tine that the increase of the
excise duties: on hides and: skins would compal the'
poor to pay somtivhat more for their shoes ; but
even after the increase, the price which- they
would have' to pay would not be so 'great as it
was in the days of Queen Anne, when the original
duty was imposed. It bud been said that the'
poor would not only suffer indirectly but directly:
This he denied. The ealculatioin which had heen
made upon this subject was most erroneous.--•
would appear by, that calculation that the- duev,
would. be increased. 360 per cent. to the con-
. sumer. Into whose, poOkeas •, would this exorbis:
tint increase on the cansumer go ? The tanners
slenied that they Would receive any'of it. The cur=
tiers and shoe-makers ..did not adolit that they
would receive much; But. let the probable hict
be examined. Theweissitt of a, poor 'man's ptur
of shoes might be estimated at torn or-three phunda.
,The direct, tax, therefore, could not ,amount to
above fourpenee lsjfpeony, or fivepence, on each
.pak of poor man's shoes. • As to the •shoesof the
higher classes, 'it was -well knowil tt a great
part of the price paid for them was not in con--
, suleratiou. of the, leather, but of the ,fashion. He
.had still to reply tothe third class of .objections,
viz. that the increase of duty would very anusit
injure the manufacturing interests,
.rIT, e. had, even .
beep desired to. postpone theprogress of the Bill;
in order to receive the communications oftheraaa
nufacturers, and :to Ilear their objections.. He
-had received their communicatious, -and he had
heard their objections s---Every Hon. Gentleman
present, had doubtless a copy of the paper -which
he held in his hand, containing the statement-of
those objections. The first objection in that
statement was, that the increase of the duty
would operate exclusively on the manufacturers.
Nothing could be . more unfounded. Indeed
it was directly. contradicted. by some of the ob-
jections in the latter part of the statement, for it
was impossible for the manufacturers to support
alt the, objections -which this paper - contained.—
They clashed. -It was impossible that they could.
maintain that the price would be raised to the
consumer, and at the same time that the opera-
tion.of the duty would be confined to the menu •
-
facturers. He would here, observe, thatoit was
not intended to charge the additional duty on the
stock in hand, and the manufacturers would there-
fore gain ssonie advantage by the necessary rise in
the price of that article, which they had laid in on
comparatively advantageous
,terms: He would
proceed to the consideration of the next objection
contained inthe manufacturers' statement; namely,
that the increase of the duty would check exporta-
tion.. How could this be? A drawback was allowed
on exportation. Goods exported would be there-
fare free from duty, and there would be the single
inconvenience, that during the interval between
the manufa eture and the exportation, the ditties must.
be advanced, so that a larger capital might be nes
nessary than Would be requisite in other circum-
stances. • The next objection urged by the ma-
nufacturers (although it had nothing to do with
themselves), was, that the duty would have the
effect of lowering the price of oak hark.----NOva,
really, if the Manufacturers raised the price of
leather :to the consumer, . so:much as it was-by
some. said they would 'do, they would be able to
to pay. Moreofor oak bark, instead of wishing
to procure -it on easier terms than at present.
The manufacturers
.also complained that the
increase would give art undue advantage, to
the -Irish tanners. In what manner..?- The '
Irish', tanners at present paid a.doty somewhat
less than that paid bY the English tanner, anal .
when "the existing duties in England.were doubled,
it was evident that the Irish tanner would pay
much less than the English tanner. BUt in What
Market could this aflect the English tanner? Not
in the English market, 'for if the Irish tanner
bring' his goods' to an sEnglisk ma4tet, he must
par- the English duty o and if, on the contrary,
the English tanner carried his goods to an Irish
market, he would receive the diawback, and would
be subject only to the Irish duty. The remain-
ing objections inthe paper, containing the state-
ment of the manufacturei-s; consisted of a re-
ference to tha hardships which the lower classes
of the community would endure from the" in-
creased price of leather. But as he , had be-
fore observed, these objections were wholly
incompatible with the first declaration, that the
evil would rest exclusively on the manufacturing
interest. As to postponement, he really did not
see how delay could throw any light on the sub-
ject. The whole case was before the House. It
was a very simple one. • Sitailarobjections would
he made to any tax that could be devised.
was not .one of those who concurred in the sound- ,
ness of the principle, that the rich alone Should
be the subjects of taxation. Neither was it true .
that taxes which bore on the rich Were not felt
by the poor. For instance, if (as had been re-
commended in some quarters) the Income Tax
were increased in .its operation on the higher
classes, beyond the fair proportion, what would
be the consequence, but that the higher classes
must diminish their expences ; they must dismiss
part of their different establishments ;- they must
diminish- the number of persons employed' by
them in, the various occupations of life, and the
evil would thus be communicated from the anost
exalted to the lowest.members of the community.
The true principle was, that as the rich and the
poor had one common interest in the safety and
welfa're of the country; so the Legislature ought
to take care that one common system of taxation
should, if possible, be applied to them.
Mr. BASTARD observed, that the reason why no
additional tax had been laid upon leather for the
last hundred years, was, that it was found that it
could not bear it.; with respect to this tax af-
fecting land to the extent of three-peace for every
acre, it would follow, according to • the calcula-
tion of the Chancellor -of the Elxchequer, that the
poorest alto would pay much nacre in proportion

than the richest; had been asserted; that this
'tax would fall upon the landlord, -not on'the fa't
flier ; but he thought it would be proper that any
new tax should he, inakto Qperate directly on the
class which it .was intenklibitt it should affect ;
on the whole, be 00;104: flits: tax very prejudi-
eial to the agriciilttiral interests_ of the country,
and;in this sensy, 'So; important, that he begged
the aouse to take it.into very serious considera-L
tion.

- Mr. SYTRIbAN said, that he, was Member for a
town where this taxl.woUld he most severely felt,
and-thought that any other Member in asimilar
situation would, frgm motives similar to his-own,
feel di posed to "object to this tax, which was
one calculated to preSs most severely and heavily
upon poor labouring people, while it affected the
richer classts of society but lightly; and the tax
being laid on the leather by yeight; would make
it still more oppressive- on the lower .classes, as
the sort of leather Used
.by them is of the heaviest
and coarsest kind ; 'he was surprised that any al:-
lusion should hate been made regarding. the
length of "time that has elapsed since any addi-
tional tax haS been laid on this article. When
he was in the Treasury, a proposition was made
for a tax on this very article, and the reasons for
its. rejection were So very strong, that he did not
think it would ever again be proposed.
the Committee then divided—
. .
For the Amendment 4O
Against it . _

Majority
—26

The Report was then brought Up and agreed
to, and the 'Bill was appofutcd to be read a third
tithe on Wednesday.
A message from the Lords announced their
Lordships assent to 'the Blackfrian Bridge Bill,
and the Irish Grand Jury Bill.
7, A person from the Victualling Office, presented
an 'aecount .of old naval stores sold in 1811.—Or-
' dered to lie on the table.

• Mr. SHERIDAN presented a Petition from
~Mr.
H. St. John Mason, stating that he had seen a
,•-• letter 6one-the-Lord Lientenant'of Ireland to Mr.
'Ryder, cotitaining eahnhilieS and falseb oods against
him, which., as. lie could not at present find means.
to 'clear' himself, he therefore
.pOyea the, House
-to afford 'MM. an opportunity" at some future
pe-
-riod of 'Nitta-eating his character. . Ordered. to lie
on the table;