The Sun.
London, England, 1841-01-28 00:00:00

EVENING EDITION.

that those Gentleman who now spoke at the latter part
•f the debate would speak at an earlier hour instead of
postponing it. He did not wish to make any motion on
the subject. He agreed v; ith his Hon. Friend, and had
always voted with him on every occasion that night
work was very prejudicial to the public interest. Many
of the most important measures of the Session were
passed after midnight, which would have been more ma-
turely considered if they had been brought before the
attontion of the House in the day time.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
House divided, when there appeared—
For the original Order l3O
For Mr. Brotherton's Amendment 31
Majority for the original Order 99
On our admission to the gallery we found
PRIVATE BILLS (COMMITTEES.)

Mr. E WART, addressing the House on the motion
with respect to the Private Bill Committee, of which he
had given notice. He said it must have struck almost
every Member who had either personally attended, or
become acquainted with the proceedings of Committees
on private business that the constitution of those Com-
mittees was capable of much amendment. The first
thing which struck him was the necessity of reducing
the number of Members composing them. The effect
of that reduction would be to increase the responsi-
bility of the Members forming the Committee, and the
efficiency of that body, but not only was there
ground of complaint on account of their constitution,
but the character of the Committees had been com-
plained of. It had been, and he feared with too much
justice imputed to those Committees, that they acted
freqeently from local and personal feeling, he need not
say how grievous such a charge was when made against
the Members of that House, how much it would tend to
lower them in public estimation. And how necessary
it was therefore that the ground for such imputations
should be removed. Members might now be personally
interested, and yet they might be upon Committees on
Private Bills: They were selected from the localities
from which the Bills emanated, and therefore were neces-
sarily interested. He appealed to Gentlemen who had
sat upon those Committees when, after the Committees
had met, they were not often divided into several local
parties, so that the Members were sometimes led by
local influences, sometimes by political influences, some-
times by influences still more partial and personal. He
saw several Hon. Members near him who served on a
Committee last Session, which was prolonged for the
space of about two months ; he alluded to the Liverpool
Docks Committee. In that case the contest became
one almost purely between two local parties, and it was
almost impossible, from the views taken by most re-
spectable persons on both sides, for the Members to
separate and keep clear of those local prejudices which
to the Noble Lord, the Member for Liverpool, on the
one hand, and to himself (Mr. Ewart) on the other,
rendered it so difficult to come to a conclusion. But
this was only one case ; such instances were almost in-
numerable. There was no Honourable Member who
had served upon Committees, who had not reprobated
this evil in a tribunal which ought to be strictly judicial,
and should never be made the vehicle of local and per-
sonal feelings. It had even happened that on a purely
local matter, political subjects had intervened ; one
political party had taken up one side of the question,
and another party the other side. It had been per-
ceived, for instance, that by the passing of a particu-
lar Act, the number of voters belonging to one .party
would be diminished, and thus the measure, from being
a purely judicial one, had become, first, a local one,
gm:badly, a politic it one, and thus the ends of justice
were frustrated, the House did not do its duty,
and the public interest. was damaged by such proceedings.
He bad already spoken cf the system of canvassing
which took place both previous, to and during the sit-
ting of a Committee—it wee a system much to be de-
precated ; therefhse he thought the time had come
when they were called upon to vindicate the character
of the House, and that Hon. Members should be al-
lowed to do their duty to the public. The public had
not slumbered on that important question. Certainly
there had not been many petitions from the people of
Eagiand, but a reference to the Journals of the House
would show that there had been numerous petitions
presented from Scotland, complaining of the subject.
Ile supposed that arose from the superior foresight
and knowledge of the people of that country, which
induced them to look sharply after the. doings of those
deputed to represent them. He proposed that as they
now had a Committee of Selection at the begin•
nine, of a Ses,ion, as Committees were required,
the Committee of Selection should choose seven
Members from among those' gentlemen who were
least interested, either personally or locally, Isith
the sulject•matter of the ail to he considered.
Ilia object was to increase the purity of these Libunal.,.
Ile had no doubt that by reducing the numbers, he
would ieerease tie respoesibility and insure a more
regular attendance. He did net cense before the
House without seine evidence on the subject, aiel. lie
would give them the epioioa of a gentleann weal ver-
sed in the practice of Parliamentary Cunanaittres,
who wis able to form an of-inion upon the subj,:ct,
namely Mr. Ha; ward, the well known Par i,:incntr.ry
Arent. His evidence went to :.her, that pet sota,
would he prevented from fight:ag a bad cause before
C;ramittce, if th case was to he hard before an lin-
partial tribunal—that tke present system was one of
very great expellee, where the rich ruin hi.d a decided
advantage over the peer man—that it would be a
cidqd advantage to have a sea,.ller unnther to fcrm the
Co,nmittee, as it would enerease the rcsp-rot.ibility and
4,C,110 a better attendance. evidence of otlftr
witnesses on these pints was to the sense effect, and
it was distinctly shown that local isfluetase was too
frequently exerted in levees of a measure beiere a Com-
mittee of the House. O.i these grow ids it apoeared
to him that the e.i:c!e,iion of Meath :-is who wcre
locally ni
ioteresteMtither by tliselves through their
Constituents wo,:i1(1 be attended with beneficial results.
The principle was admitted to be one of reform, whirsli
had been already in some tlegre carried into effect.
Committees would thus he totaily changed ; there
would be thus an entire reforaritioa effected in then:.
He had not only the evidence taken before Partin.
nientary Committers to siJpport the suggestion which
he made, but he had also the satisfactien to r.ntl that
the plan which he proposed was odopted i.i tire House
of Lords. It was well known to Hen. Members about
him that in the Heues of Lords they fetind it ahse-
lutely necessary to adopt the plan which he new sul.-
mitted to the consideration of the House. He would
not further advert to that part of she question, but
refer Hon. Members to the c\;idenee of the Doke of
Ps'ehmond respecting this subject, end which lie (Mr.
Eesert) had then before him. Inc hul also before him
some evidence given by Pailiamen'ary agents during
the last Session of Parliament before Committees of
that House, estahishing that the expeihnents made in
the other House had succeeded. He felt convinced,
that by the ellanje which he proposed, not only would
the tribunals to which it applied be rendered more
pure, but business would be better conducted, and the
delays which had been hitherto to a very great extent
effected during the sittings of Committees by Mem-
bers interested in the questions ender considera-
tion, would be put an end to. He said
Members had caused delays, and it must in-
evitably be so, as they were interested as
partisans, and they acted with the spirit of pirtisan•.
Another advantage of the system he proposed was, that
messy excellent Members who at present were scarcely
ever called on to serve on Committees, would have their
talents and their energies brought into action. If Mem-
bers did not happen to represent places in some large
manufacturing districts--:f they represented purely ag-
ricultural districts—they were never called on to act,
except on some petty miserable Bill affecting some
change in a road, or something that never called forth
their talents. Indeed he felt confident that the plan
he proposed would materially benefit the House. At
the same time he wished it to be understood that by his
plan Members on Private Bills' Committees would not
thus undertake two offices at the same time. If the
House wished the question might be limited to Private
Bills' Committees ; he only desired to carry a sound
principle into effect. He therefore called upon that
House to adopt the amendment lie proposed. It af-
fected the character of the House—and the character
of a public body like that House, should be as that of
an individual—the first of all considerations with it.
The character of their proceedings should be as pure as
possible, or at least as little contaminated as possible.
Strongly feeling that that principle ought to be the basis
of all the regulations of that House, he called upon the
House to assent to the proposition which he laid be-
fore it.
Mr. AGLIONBY seconded the motion.

Sir. GEORGE GREY hoped the Hon. Member for
Wigan would not press his motion to a division, but
would await the result of the improved system now in
operation. Ho hoped the Hon. Member would think
his purpose was sufficiently answered in having brought
the question bore the House. If the Hon. Gentle-
iaan did press for a division he (Sir G. Grey) should be
compelled to vote aglinst him.

Mr. AG LIONBY said it had been always thought
most essential to have our tribunals as pure as possible
from all private and local interests. This, question was
not a new one, but had been raised again and again be-
fore the House. It was necessary to have local infor-
mation, but it was not necessary to have local interest
—(Hear, hear)—or if it were, the local interest he would
have should be the same as that had by the House of
Lords. It was admitted that no Member. who had
pecuniary interest could sit on a Committee about to
decide on sow question that mlqhtaffe!l it, and he
(Mr. Aglioliby) could not distinguish between
pecuniary interests and the bias and force imposed upon
Members by the wishes of their constituents.—( Hear,
bear.) The system adopted by the House of Lords
was found to work very well, and he could not see why
the House of Commons should be behind that Noble
House in reforming its private business. Sufficient
time bad been allowed for trial of the present system.
bear.) The Speaker had had the honour of
introducing many reforms, but many were still required.
Mr. GOULBURN hoped that Hon. Members
would take the advice of the Hon. Baronet (Sir G.
Grey), and not press for a division, It was a question

of great importance. If he considered a Committee of
the House of Commons as a purely judicial tribunal, he
might agree with the Hon. Member for Wigan ; but he
did not regard a Committee of that House as acting in an
exclusively judicial capacity, His view of them
was that a Committee was appointed to do that which
the House of Commons itself ought to do, but which,
for the convenience of public business, was devolved to
a selection of Members of the House to prevent the
House being so encumbered with business as to be pre-
vented discharging its duty to "the public. He should
as soon think of excluding any person from giving in-
formation as a Member of the House of Commons from
a Committee on a question in which he was locally in-
terested. The Hon. Member for Wigan's motion went
to the point that no Member should serve on a Com-
mittee who, through his constituents, was interested in
the Bill. Now that would exclude him from doing that
which was one of the objects for which he was re-
turned.—(Hear, hear.) A Peer had no consti-
tuents to represent, and could have nothing but
a local interest, therefore the House of Lords
were bound to take measures to prevent their Com-
mittees being formed by those who might be person-
ally interested. He (Mr. G.) could not consent to
adopt a practice, which, in his view of the duties of a
Member of Parliament, did incapacitate him from su-
perintending the interests of those by whom he was
s'nt to that House.—(Hear, hear.) The present sys-
tem ought to have a fair trial, but at all events it was
a subject of too much importance to be decided in so
thin a House.

Mr. WARBURTON could draw no distinction
between the duties of Members upon public Bills
and their duties upon private Bills. Members were
sent there not as the agents or attorneys of their con-
stituents, but to consider the interests of the whole
empire.—(Hear, hear.) No doubt the present prac-
tice was an improvement upon the old system, but
even now repeated applications were made from Com-
mittees on private Bills, in consequence of the requisite
number of disinterested Members not attending,
for permission to proceed in spite of that non-attend-
ance. He was of opinion that the sooner the present
system was changed the better it would be for the pub-
lic.--( Hear, hear.)
Sir CEO. STRICKL AND said that if his Hon.
Friend pressed his motion to a division, he should cer-
tainly vote with him, because he was inclined to think
the Committees wanted further improvement. At the
same time he thought his Hon. Friend had not com-
pleted the plan he intended to adopt. He agreed that
the Committees ought to be kept as pure as poss.b!e
from local interests. .He thought that the plan pro-
posed by his Hon. Friend might be more fully worked
out, and he would therefore wish that he would not call
on the House to come to a decision without further
consideration.

Mr. ESTCOURT thought that the Hon. Member
might more properly have introduced his proposition
some years ago, when abuses existed in regard to Com-
mittees on private Bills, which had since been removed.
The amendment had been made on various occasions,
and some of them ha tee eourse of last Session. Be-
sides, no slstem could obviate every possible inconve-
nience ; and for his part he was of opinion that if they
removed from Private Bill Committees all Members
who had an interest in them, they would only deprive
themselves of the necessary local information.
Mr. LABOUCHERE hoped that his Han. Friend
would no press his motion against the recommenda-
tion of the Committee of last Session that the system
then adopted should have a fair trial. The question
whether Committees should be exclusively official and
divested of local interests was one of very great diffi-
culty. That House could not separate its Committees
from the representative character of the whole body,
and render them strictly judicial, as were the Com-
mittees of the House of Lords.

Mr. PRYME considered it would be a great evil
net to have local Members on the Committees, and
thought that a Committee, constituted on the plan of
the Hon. Member for Wigan, might, with the greatest
possible desire to do justice, commit gross injustice for
want of local knowledge.
Mr. HUME would ask the Hon. and Learned
Member for Cambridge what he would think if he were
to see a jury-box filled with persons having a local inte-
rest in the matter to be tried, and the cases of a jury
and committee were exactly similar. He would admit
that it had been usual to consider Members were placed
on those Committees to do the jobs of their constituents.
But that was an abuse which ho wished to see done
away with altogether. He would admit that many
abuses which 11•1,1 existed formerly in respect to the ap-
pointment to Private Committees, had been remedied,
but that was only a reason for getting rid of the rermir,
jag ones. He thought that the time had come
when there should be no more temporising, and would,
therefore, support the motion cf his lion. Friend. He,
for one, would not be afraid to go before the country on
this question, as he was convinced that every honest
constituency would say that they would nailer £llbMit a
question to a C Hnmittee having no lola' interers than
be s:uhj,ctcd to
,j )liLing.
Mr. RICE s chat it was frecoenly considered an
advaot,,ge at qu.lrter sessions and assiz,ni‘ far a jary to
have local koo,.:ledge of the matter in dispute.
Mr. JAM STEWART supported the motion.
Mr. EWA RT, with every disposition to accede to
the prepesition of the R:ght Hon, throaet felt, so
strenely that justice and reason ve:,:re on his side, thlt,
117, iteist press the question to a di.'ision.
Setangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
Meuse divi(h d, then there appeared

I: Jr Mr. E.7nrt's resclutiv.m4 22
tim
againq the resohtioa3 --2
COPYRIGHT „ILL.

Oa our al!nission to the gallery we found
Sergc:Ant TALFOURD on his legs, moving for
I:,ave to bring in a Bill to amlnd the law with rcsp,?et
to enpyriabt.

Mr.
Mr. WARBU RTON could as:;ure the House that
he ((10 not intend to let even a stage of the Bid pass
without olThring to it his most strenuou3 aed dotermined
opposition. When the matter was formerly discussed,
either upon the introducing of the Bill or the second
readiee,, Gentlemen on that side of the Home stated
that they entirely diagrced, both wall r2spect to the
principle wad details of the Bid, but if he (Mr. War-
burton) weuld allow the Hon. and 1,-arned Member to
hring in the Bill, when it came into Committee they
would ar,i.rt him (Mr. Warburton) in opposing( till de-
tails of the Bid, and then there w3uhl no dia:ultv
gaffing- rid of the qtrs:ion. He (Mr. Wirimr;on)
divided the House on Ihe second reading, end these
Gentlemen voted tit ii the Hon. and Learned
man. Ho (Mr. Warburton). ref course!, supposed
that when the Bill came to the Caminittee he shouid
have had the assistanco of thx.,.e. M•mihers. Amongst
whntn were her M ijesty's Attorn::.:7'•Gencral and same
of the CAhinet Mitdsters ; but when the Bill came into
Committee he (Mr. Warburton) had as much reason
to ce.mpiain of the state of the House as the Hen. and
L'arned Ges!nticman had. Those had promised him
their support were not in attendance, i.nd he had to
riz.ht f•gainst the Bill single handed. He (Mr. War-
burton) would not commit the same m;stake azan, and
therefore it was that he was determined to fiiht it in
every stage, and if he co.itd net get support in that
House, he would endeavour to get it out of it. He
considered the Bill as one that was calculated to in-
flict the greatest injustice on certain portions of the
community. In the very outset of the question the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman and himself were at issui,
upon the true principle on which the judgment of
Members ought to be guided with respect to
the measure. He (Mr. Warburton) considered that
that judgment ought to be formed upon its utility.
He did not agree with that mode of meeting the que:-
tion. He contended that the interests of authors and
the interests of the public were both to be considered,
and properly and duly weighed. It was upon these
grounds that the discussions before the Judges and the
House of Lords proceeded. On former occasions,
when this question had been argued, the Hon. and
Learned Member had said, " I have the common law
right with me."

-Mr. Sergeant TALFOURD interrupted the Hon.
Member by saying that he was quite unaware that any
opposition would be made to his motion ; he had no
notice of it, and he trusted that the House would not
commit the injustice of taking advantage of his surprise.
—(Cries of " Adjourn.")
Mr. WARBURTON observed that he also had
been taken by surprise, for he was not aware until half
an hour before he came down to the House of the motion
of the lion. Gmtleman.

Mr. Sergeant TALFOURD stated, that not being
aware of the opposition, ho w °aid renew his motion on
Friday.

CONSTABULARY BILL.

Mr. HODGES obtained leave to bring in a Bill for
the better regulation of the Constabulary Force of
England and %Vales.
The House adjourned at Eight o'Clock.

ROYAL MARINES.—An order was on TLl3:4lay
received at the Woolwich division of Royal Marines to
forward immediatc!y two recruiting parties, one to Edin
burgh, under the command of Captain Philips, and one to
Hereford, under the command of Captain Wright. It is
said similar orders have been issued to the other divisions
at Chatham, Portsmouth, and Plymouth, preparatory to a
considerable augmentation of this force. The number of
companies about to be raised is twelve, which will give
commissions to twelve Captains and twelve First Lieu-
tenants, and the appointment of sixty sergeants and sixty
corporals, five sergeants and five corporals being attached
to each company of marines, while there are only three
sergeants and three corporals attached to companies of the
line. The difficulty which at present exists in obtaining
men for the Royal Marines, renders it probable that for
the inure speedy raising of the number required, a reduc•
tion of the standard of height, or an addition to the amount
of bounty, will be resorted to.
The Earl of Wilton arrived in town on Monday
evening from Eaton Hall, the seat of the Marquis and
Marchioness of Westminster, in Cheshire. The Noble
Earl has quite recovered from his indisposition, and will
leave Grosvenor-square at the close of the week to join
Ole Countess of \\ ilton, at Egerton Lodge, Melton Mow.
bray.