The Sun.
London, England, 1847-05-08 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT

HOUSE OF LORDS, May 7.
The LORD CHANCELLOR. took.his seat on the Woolsack at
Five o'clock.
Messengers from the Commons brought up several Bills,
which were ordered to lie on the table.

POOR RELIEF (IRELAND)—COMMITTEE.
On the motion of the Marquis of LANSDOWNE, the
qrcler of the day for resuming the consideration of the Poor
Relief Bill in Committee was read, and their Lordships went
into Committee.
The Earl of CLANCARTY wished to ask a question in
eennexion with what had fallen from a Noble Lord. It had
been said that the accommodation in unions and workhouses
was such that nut-door relief would be very little required. He
(the Earl of Clancarty) begged to ask whether, under the 4th
clause of the Bill, the Commissioners were to support;a relieving
officer who should have nothing to do?
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said the clause was ex-
ceedingly simple ; it gave the Commissioners power to ap-
point persons to dispense relief in particular districts. Out-
door raid was *sly intended to be given under special cir-
cumstances.—(Hear.) For instance, where impotent poor
required relief, it would be necessary to appoint persons to
dispense the necessary relief.
The Earl of CLANCARTY then proposed the omission of
the sth clause, which provided for the relief of destitute persons
under peculiar circumstances, and the substitution of another,
empowering the Commissioners to construct and aid fever hos-
pitals He said his object was not to curtail the means of substan-
tial relief to those who stood in need of it, but to protect another
class, who would be much injured by the Bill as it stood,
namely, the industrious persons for whom the medical charities
of Ireland were established ; by the aid of such institutions
ailing persons would be afforded relief until they were in
a fit wee to labour for their subsistence.—( Hear, hear.)
In proposing this amendment, he was testing the desire of the
Government to afford relief to the Irish people through the
medium of a Medical Relief Bill. The present Fever Bill
would terminate in November, and therefore he wished to
urge upon the Government to promote a measure for a
similar purpose, which might come into operation
at its termination : thus they might lay the foundation of
efficient medcal charities in Ireland. It was because he
thought the clause would interfere with these charities that
he proposed its omission.
'lke Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that he thought it
was necessary that the clause should remain in the Bill for its
efficient operation.
The amendment having been negatived,

The Earl of CLANCARTY thought it would be better to
insert words making the operation of this clause temporary, in
order to carry out the decision to which their Lordships had
come on the previous evening.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE had understood the effect
of that vote to make the whale Bill temporary.
Lord STANLEY thought words ought to be inserted mak-
ing the operation of the clause temporary.
Earl FITZWILLIAM thought it would be better to make
the whole Bill temporary.
Lord MONTE GLE 'aid his intention in moving the
amendment last night was to give a temporary effect only to all
the previsions of the Bill relating to out-door relief.
The Earl of WICKLOW said, that the vote to which they
cam, last night limited the operation of the whole Bill as, he
understood, to 1848. But in fact the whole matter was in such
a state of confusion, that no two men could agree as to the na-
ture or effect of the vote which they had come to last night.—
(Hear, hear, and cheers. )
Lord MONTEAGLE denied there was any confusion
whatever, unless the confusion of ideas of the 'Noble Earl him-
self.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that after a most care-
ful considesption of the vote last night, it was difficult to say
what part of the Bill was to be temporary and what part per-
manent.
After a few words from Lord MONTEAGLE.
Earl GREY said he perfectly comprehended his amendment
of last evening ; it was to make the Bill a temporary measure.
But the Noble Lord had given notice of amendments applying
to parts merely of the Bill, and these amendments went to
make these parts permanent. The Noble Lord now pressed these
amendments to night ; exhibiting that his object last riL ht
was to damage the bill at its earliest course. He was successful,
bat the Bill dispite of every manceuvre was too high in the po-
pular esteem that it should fail.
Earl FIThWILLIAM disapproved of the course of the
Noble Earl's remarks ; for it was very possible that, on a Bill
of so general import Noble Lords might differ, and differ consci-
entiously. The Bill was evidently affected by last night's amend
meat in whole. It had been determined that the Bill should
be temporary, although the limited time was not yet inserted.
Lord MONTEAGLE disclaimed the imputation, and re-
mindal their Lordships that he intimated last night his wish
to make the relief clause temporary and the rest of the Bill
permanent.
Eari GERMANS felt it due to himself to say that he
distinctly understood the Noble Lord to have intimated as
mash last night.
Lord CAMPBELL said the clause would be a new source
of difficulty, and would admit of so many different interpreta-
tions that a judge would find it most difficult to arrive at a de-
ci.ien. He hoped his Noble Friend would consent to pro-
PQS. the clause merely as a temporary one.
'Lord MONTEAGLE declared that the meaning of the
clause might be easily interpreted.
The Marquis of CLAN RICARDE said the amendment
would promote the confusion which had been already intro-
duced into the Bill.

Tha Earl of SHREWSBURY said he should cordially cor-
fon that he had been labouring under a misconception when
he had supported the amendment of the preceding evening.
The Earl of CLANCARTY consented to propose the clause
as a temporary one.

After 'a
few-words from the Marquis of WESTMEATH,
Lord STANLEY said the Noble Marquis opposite (the Mar- ,
quis of Lansdowne) had expressed a wish, which he said was
very near his heart, that they should commence business with-
cost any unnecessary conversation. He would not add to the
tmschi,f that might already have been done by any de-
3ultory conversation which might have taken place,
and would confine himself to the sixth clause.
He would not put their' Lordships to the trouble of dividing
upon the amendment if it did not appear to meet with their
concurrence, but he believed that if it were adopted it would
be found to have a most beneficial effect. The Noble Lord
conclude(' by moving that the following clause be substituted
for clause 6 :—" And be it enacted, that in every electoral
division of each union there shall be a relief committee ; which
relief committee shall consist of the guardians of such union
resident or having rateable property within such electoral di-
vision, together with the (two) highest ratepayers therein, not
being guardians of such union ; and every such committee
shall meet weekly, on some day other than that of the meeting
of the board of guardians ; and every such relief committee
,shall annually elect a chairman ; and every relieving officer
who shall be appointed as hereinbefore directed, shall at
each weekly meeting reprt to such relief committee any
case of sudden or urgent net essity, and shall have power,
sander an order signed by the chairman, or such person
as shall be, pro tempore, acting as chairman, of such re-
lief committee, to give provisional relief in such case of
sudden and urgent necessity, either by an order of
admission to the workr.ouse or fever hospital of the union, pro-
vided there be room therein respectively, and by conveying any
destitute poor person thereto, it necessary, or by affording such
poor person immediate and temporary relief in food, lodging, or
medical attendance, until the next ordinary meeting of the
board of guardians, at which meeting he shall report the case,
and the nature and cost of the relief so afforded, in such form
and manner as the Poor- taw Commissioners shall prescribe,
and after such report shall give no further relief otherwise than
by direction of the board of guardians in the case so reported
and the guardians of the union shall furnish the chairman of
such relief committee with the necessary funds for affording
relief in atanner aforesaid, and for the relief of those destitute
poor persons to whom relief shall be granted by the board of
guardians, at such times and in such manner as the Poor-law
Commissioners shall determine and direct."

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE hoped the Noble Lord would
leave the matter in the bands of her Majesty's Government.
lie thought the object of the Noble Lord might be attained b)
enahling;boards of guardians of large unions to appoint corn-
mitt,us of their own bodies to exercise the check which he re•

Lord STANLEY said that the propos:tinn of the Noble
Marquii was so nearly what he himself previously had proposed,
that he had no difficulty in acquiesefrig in such an arrangement.
After a fes words trom the Marquis of LANSDOWNE,
Lord STANLEY said the only object which he had in view
was to give the beard of guardians an intermediate control
over the relieving okcer, in order that the public interests
might be protected.
Clause 6 was then agreed to, and ordered to stand part of
am Bill.

On clause seven being read,
Lord BROUG HAM con-idered that the latitude granted to
paupers was by
off as obe enviet by the landlords. His great objection to the
measu e arose trona the fact of his being unable to see, the
way in which it was to be carried out. The Government did
not follow the old principle, of resting while they were in the
dark ; but they said, 4' because we are so let us go on."—
( Laughter.) Because we do not see our way, let us do some-
thing." It was often much better to leave what was not quite
well, alone, because meddling with it made it very often much
worse. 1-he more he considered the question, the more he was
impressed with the necessity of Government not interfering in
the manner which was proposed to do by the clause.
Lord LANSDOWNE said that the Act did net confer a
right to relief. Individual cases of hardship might arise, and
the only way to remedy it was by leaving the right to relief
discretionary in the poor-law guardians and the Poor-law
Commissioners.

Clauses 7 and £5 were then agreed to.
On drause 9,

Earl IRTZ*ILLIAM moved the amendment, of which he
had given notice, to the effect, that the surrender of the
quarter acre should take place to the landlord, or some properly
authorised afficer.

Earl GREY said that the principal clause as proposed by
his Noble Friend purported that if a tenant were in
possession of a quarter of an acre of land and a
house, he should not be entitled to any reliel
under the Poor-law Act, and if he were obliged to
surrender, he should surrender the entire holding, for it was
clearly evident that if the tenant chose to surrender the land
without the House, it would be a great injustice to the land-
lord if he were obliged to accept the surrender of the land
vvi hoot the house. If there were to be a surrender, there
aught therefore to be a surrender of the whole of the holding.
Lord VIROUO,HANI was quite opposed:to the whole principle
of the t itl, and he did not believe that any arrangement could
bedevisecl for the granting out-door relief without work-
ing a crest evil somewhere,
Earl FETZWILUANI said, that his Noble and Learned
Friend appeared to have
measure, for it
reducing w
it. ould not have the effect of increasing pauperism,

On the question being put,
The Earl of St. GEppli,N,l,6Aivlifosarid. that the whole operation
quairftearsruanfwere in the pos-
of the Bill would be o
sash
of half, or three
, therefore,
Land, he might be obliged to 0 an acre of
was the
.f.f . guaidians for relic , and the ruaelome to the board
wereat
was ...ha: was the amount of the relief, anccillwehlti"
ri,l relief, which the Board of Guardianskind
to admin.
Under the pres.ure of An insuperable calamity a man holding. administer
a
r
small portion 4, f ground might be obliged to apply for parochial
relief, and then there was no alternat,ve whatever but that he
mast give up his lane, and he must either go into the work-
house. and tus become a permanent pauper, for without either
hou-e orland he must be in a state of destitution, anti he
must therefore either go into the workhouse or else throw hi,
ex,:rtions into an already overstocked labour-market. For
those reasons he h.sd formed the opinion that it would be unwise
to lt mit the relief to those who were not in the possession of
any portion of land He had shown, as he thought, that he
had not come to his conclusions with ut sufficient grounds, anti
ertain he vtaA that some limitation should be placed on the
power rested in the boaud of guardians, and with this expres-
sion of his feeling he would leave the clause in the hands of
~ ... ,
t.-reir 1..“-‘1,11,p,. . ...
- . .
The Earl of..1101)Elit said that he believed some limit
.
56,,,,i,, i,, I, - pie nii -he lavish expenditure of .he board of gun--
dianii, f.r he believed that abuses must prevail, unless the pro
visions of the law was strictly carried out. He would state a
case which occurred during the last autumn in the district of
the b-srd of guardians. of which he was a member. A man
in um: di-tri..t he' unfortunately tallen into great distress, and
he applied to the board for relief, although he was at the time
pi possession of the holding from which his subsistence had