The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-16 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY

prietors be sufficient to support the destitute withcut external
std? He believed that it would not. sinless great exertion was
made, and it was to stimulate this that the present Bill was pre-
!iared. lie believed that it would Ise impossible to struggle
through without great exertion on the part of Irishmen them-
:elves; but with his knowledge of Irishmen and Irish energy,
it was his belief that the poor-law would prove a stimulus,
and, instead of crushing. would rouse arid inv:gerate them.
—( Hear, hear.) A gcod deal of discueion had turned on:the
conduct of the Irish landlords, and sweeping condemnations
had been made. He agreed with several Hon. Members, that
great injustice had been done them, as it was unfair. in esti-
eating their conduct, to leave out of view the pecuniary dif-
ficulties in which they were placed. And he believed that if
as great exertion had been made to bring to light the conduct
of those who had done their duty in the crisis, as had been
displayed in bringing obloquy on others, a very different im-
I pression would have beets produced on the House
and the country. He thought that if the con-
Net of many of the small proprietors, especially
the great sacrifices of the clergy had been placed before them
and the public, it would be seen that great injustice had been
done to the proprietors of Ireland as a whole. At the same
time, he must say that the Legislature had not received from
others that support which had been expected. lie never liked
to give names, but as several Scotch proprietors had been
most deservedly mentioned for the exertions they hail made to
relieve the destitute, he wished to name one Irish landlord who
could bear comparison with them, and he was but one of many
ethers he might cite. He knew nothing of the gentleman
personally, and the information he had derived was from one
.f the officers employed under the Government in that part of
the country where the gentleman resided. The Right
Honourable Gentleman here read an extract from the let.
ter of the officer, which stated that Sir Robert Rooth
the gentleman referred to, resided in the county of Sligo,
where he had a large estate. He had at his own place opened
two soup boilers of 140 gallons each, and daily distributed 180
gallons of soup. During six days in each week, he also distri-
outed 180 loaves of bread above 41bs. weight each daily, be-
-ides selling 30 tons of Indian corn in the week at a reduced
etiee.—( Hear, hear, and cheers. ) Besides this, he distributed
quantities of biscuit, oatmeal, and other articles 01 food. lie
ad, at the date ,if the letter, 527 tons of Indian corn in Stand,
mid had ordered 2,375 tons of Indian torn more, besides a
quantity of beans, peas, and other produce, for the consump-
tion of the neighbourhood. He had expressed a hope that. the
Government woulc: assist him in the matter which they had clone.
fhis Gentleman had never desired his name to be mentioned,

though it deserved to be, as well as many others in Ireland
who had acted in coequally meritorious manner. At the same
ime it was equally true that many proprietsrs who were deriv-
mg lark! incomes from Ireland had totally neglected their
fury, and failed :n contributing to meet. the destitution which
wevailed. He rejoiced, therefore, that the present Bill would
bilge them to contribute in curse to the support cf the
destitute. It was important that these parties should
:snow that if they did not exert themselves to
provide employment for the people, they would havn
0 support theta out of their incomes.--( Hear, hear.) This,
le thought, was the most valuable portion of the Bill. Ho
rtaol now stated the general reasons why he trusted the House
xould assent to the principle of the Bill. Having agreed to
hat, the details of it could be better considered in committee ;
is the) would then receive all the consideration which they
leserved In conclusion, he trusted they would now affirm the
main principle of the measure, which was that Irish property
hould be charged with Irish distress, and leave all the details
o be fully and c,refully discussed afterwards.—( Cheers.)
Mr. S. O'BRIEN said that, with reference to the people

of England, it was impossible to exaggerate their munificence
o the Irish people; but he had said, and he repeated the as..
stertion, that a national government in the country would have
,een able to guarantee every individual in that country from
starvation. He was not disposed to question the liberality of
s'arliament. He considered 10,000,000/. alas a sacrifice made
by thew, but he believed that the money which had been
xpended might have been done so more advanta.
"eously for the psople.--( Hear, hear,) He considered
that if the State said to the Irish railway companies
hat they would advance half of the capital Mari passe necessary
te advance their troperty, a great and material benefit would
have been conferred. No reproductive work had been under-
'alcen for a long time, and the capital which could have been
•alled forth was suffered to remain quiescent and languish. A
treat part of the session has been lost in attacks upon the
Irish proprietors. He was not about to undertake their
tefence, but this he would say, that there were instances
tf generosity and liberality which equalled, if they
lid not surpass any that could be brought forward. If the
Irish party effected but a friendly intercourse between Gentle-
nen on the opposite side of the House, they would have
tchieved a great good —( Hear, hear.) He was not a party to
heir resolutions, and he, consequently, was not subject to the
animadversions which had been cast upon them, for, in his
teinien. a system of poor-Jassy was absolutely necessary for the
welfare of the country.
Mr. ROEBUCK, the opening portion of whose speech, as
well as various other parts, were perfectly inaudible in the
iallery, was understood to say, that the Hon. Member for the
tfniversity of Dublin had, on a recent occasion, stated to the
louse that he was perfectly at a 1 iss to discover the mo•ives
for his (Mr. Roebuck's) conduct. The amenities—continued
•he Hon. and Learned Member—of that gentleman's mind
could suggest to him only one motive as actuating his, which
.vas that of English spite towards Irish landlords. Spite, against
Whom ? against what he (Mr. Shaw) was pleased to call the
andlords of Ireland. He t Mr. Roebuck) did not know who
he landlords ot Ireland were; he hat! never been able to dis-
inguish or to learn who those gentlemen were. For his part
the
against mortgagee.tthe
t
.ie thought that the real landlords of Ireland were the tax-
.s ar and her a
never expz msed
oar?:
p
gathererNovr, o
tsagee. He was perfectly aware that there were
',tally persons in Ireland called landlords, who fancied
' hemselres to be proprietors of land, but who
riad not the means of supporting the dignity belonging to their
ration, as such, and he ( Mr. Roebuck) had often suggssted
hat such persons should be removed from their false position,
shish they occupied as merely nominal proprietors of land in
reland, in order that Ireland might be disencumbered
'Tom those who were hanging, like a dead weight, upon her
nergits and resources, and allow the real proprietors of her
and at once to be called into activity and exertion, and be
wade instrumental in promoting the interests which they
soses•ed in that country. What did the House, however, now
tropose to do. He would venture to say that, upon the pre•
.nt occasion, there were two separate questions before the
'louse, an' two really different and distinct things spoken of
)3, Hon. Gentlemen who had spoken upon those questiens.
some Hon. Gentlemen said " Oh, we are agreed upon all
hugs except upon the principle ot out-door relief ;" arid then
.ireetly some other lion. and Irish Member would get up and
nake a speech against all poor-laws whatever. If the House
would permit him, he would dwelt for a few moments on these
circumstances, and then say a word or two with respect
~s the real feelings of Honourable Gentlemen opposite,
What was it then that the House was endeavouring to do?
and what was the mode in which it was proposed to brill,
about the end it had in view? At the present moment. there
,ppearod to be in Ireland a remarkable collision of classes.
Large masses of her labouring population were not subsisting
upon wages but depended for their subsistence upon their
:mall holdings of land By a peculiarity connected with that
country the landlords have been induced to divide
heir property into innumerable small portions, and
,he result of their infinttessimal division of holdings
Would be. that if anything like what had happened
last year should occur again, the same disastrous results would
take place as had marked the history of Ireland during the
present year. A large multitude of persons were dependent
upon these small patches of land for their maintenance and sup-
port, and if a failure should take place, or anything like a gene-
al calamity come upon the people, a general and universal
.amine was the result. There was also another peculiarity at-
.ached to these small holdings of land, which was, the agrarian
disturbances which always overspread the country. These
fisturbances arose entirely out. of these small holdings. It was
:rot because one portion of the people were starving and another
was not, that agrarian disturbances took place. It was because
'hose small holdings of land were essentially necessary for the
txistence of the people. The law had not been their protector.
And the consequence had been that the people had had
secourse to every species and system of self-defence for
the purpose of maintaining their holdings. But they had
seen driven to this by dire necessity; the very exigencies
if their condition had driven them to attempt a stand against
the tyranny of their imperious landlords, who strove upon
every slight pretence, and upon the most ine.licient grounds to
eject them from their holdings. They were not so in England.
Snd why ? The poor man knew full well that there was a poor
`muse and a poor-law to afford him shelter. In Ireland, on
rhe contrary, the poor man saw death—nothing but death
staring him and his family in the face, and he wa, compelled out
of dire necessity to fall back upon some means of slit-defence.
Icy which they could maintain their holdings against the do-
mination of their landlords, and hence it was that conspiracies
spread from one end of the country to the other, and threats
from shore to shore. Hence it was that numerous combing
tions had been formed for the purpose of carrying out this
wild spirit of justice, and the instruments or assassins of the
combinations had been brought from the north and from the
:ouch in order to carry into execution the wild determinations
of prigs of secret conspirators. What was their object? It
was nothing more than to maintain the poor man upon his
eolding, and to protect him by a species of wild justice in the
tbaence of milder forms of law against the imperious domi-
nation of the merely nominal proprietors of the soil. Such was
'he condition of the large labouring population of Ireland,
And unless England stepped in and brought some measure to
hear upon this state of things, such would continue to be their
wretched condition. And the same wild spirit of justice, and
unhappy, and unchristian mode ot maintaining the means of
*hat existence would continue. The House would, however,
by the adoption of the proposed measure bring the people under
the mild spirit of the law, anti snake the property of Ireland
the means of providing for the exts'ence of the poor, insure a
spirit of mildness, gentleness, and subservience to tile law, in

;dace of the conspiracies. and the ill-feelings, and the secret
societies which previously existed. Who were the ac-
cusers of these righteous measure.? The landlords of
Ireland. It was a noble sight to see the land-
lords of Ireland laving aside their personal conside-
rations, putting aside all their feelings of aggrandisement, and
devoting themselves to the improvement of the condition
of the people, but there was not a more degrading or a more
debasing sight than to see those who were rich in this world's
goods banded together for purposes of defence and aggression
against the poor, and bringing to bear all the power which
their station and intellect could command, to crush what should
be considered by all right-thinking persons as the rights of the
poor. Could he not then ask the House to look upon this
picture and upon that. The people of England asked that a
law equal to that which existed in England should be passed
for Ireland. He would not be told that that which was bene-
ficent legislation for the poor in England would be the ruin of
Ireland. But that was an argument which hail been vary
strongly put forth by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member
for the University of Dublin ( Mr. Shaw ). Ireland, said that
Right Hon. Gentleman, was ruined. He (Mr. Roebuck)
should like to know what the Right Hon. Gentleman meant by
Ireland. Did he mean the millions of her working population,
or the narrow-minded sects of one of which he had been a
favourite born child—sects that instilled feisling,s of the bitterest
hostility against the English into the mind of the Irish people?
—( A cry of " Divide.") Divide ! there would be no division ;
there would be much talk, but no min had pretended that
this question would go to a division.—(Hear, hear. )
Now, in what position were they placed with regard to this
linrgen i(iner Ireland, ela
then d,
enactment but the inte
ol;
t opinion
N
or, pio
question? It was no longer doubtful that Ireland must have
a real and efficient poor-law, similar in spirit to the poor. law
England.of
such a law necessary.—( Hear, hear.) Such a poor-law
onl
meant that there was a right, on the part of
oft
this country,
the
feeling
the destitute poor to relief—( Hear, hear )—a right
to receive relief somewhere, and in some satisfactory manner.
It did not involve the law of settlement—it did not involve
the law of removal, and those points they did not quarrel
about. Now, they already had the houses and the adminis-
trators of the law ; they had got the law of settlement and the
law of removal, and all that Government wished to add was
out-door relief, upon its being clearly ascertained that the re-
espient was really destitute and in want. Irish gentlemen,
however objected to this, and in doing so it would seem to argue
that Irish landlords ought not to he called upon to pay in this
way for the relief of the poor. And when these gentlemen dis-
cussed:lrish questi ins.the question itself invariably meant them-
selves. Indeed, when Ireland was talked about by them, Ireland
meant nothing snore nor less than Irish landlords,
and because they were called upon to fulfil those duties their
property imposed upon them, they declared that Ireland was
being ruined.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) Now, far frog its
being ruined, Ireland was just in a condition when it 'to most