The Sun.
London, England, 1824-06-25 00:00:00

PARLIAMENT,

HOUSE OF LORDS, JUNE 24.
ROYAL ASSENT.
The Duke of MONTROST, the LORD CHANCELLOR, and
Tail SIIAVI‘F.SIIURY, as his Majesty's Commissioners, brought
down the Royal Assent to the following Bills :
The New Churches Bill, the Snperanuation Allowances
Bill, the Irish Insurrection Act Bill, the Great Sessions in
Wales Bill, the Chelsea and Greenwich Hospitals Felony !till,
the East India Possessions Bill, the Earl Marshal Authoriza-
lion Bill,' the Crown Debts in Ireland Recovery Bill, the
Marine Insurance Bill, the Southwark Bridge Bill the Thames
Tunnel Bill, and the Irish Mining Company Bill.
The Marquis of LOTIIIAII took the oaths and his seat as
Baron Kerr, by the death of his Father.
Lord CAT HO RPE presented a petition from Colchester
praying for the gradual Abolition of Slavery.—Laid on the
table.
Mr. Powr LI. presented an Account of the Receipt's and Dis-
bursements of Shoreham Harbour for the last year.—Laid on
the table.

SOUTH AMERICA.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN, before the Order of the
Day should be read, wished to take that opportunity of ad-
dresaing a few words to their Lordships on a subject which
would not take them by surprise, as it was one to which he
had exiled their attention at an early period of the Session, he
meant the State of the Relations between this Country and
South America. After the sentiments which had been ex-
pressed, and the declaration made by his Majesty's Ministers on
that occasion, lbw months had been allowed to elapse without
one step being taken to establish those relations on the footing
olewhichit was universally acknowledged that for the interest
of all parties they ought to stand. He had, however, had the
satisfaction at the time to see the principles and- opinions on
which his motion was founded, adopted by his Majesty's Mi-
nisters. All he meant to impress upon them was, that in con-
sistency with their declaration made at that period, that no
considerable time should elapse ere they shoold recognize the
ndevendence of the South American States, if there was no
opening on the part of Spain to do it herself, and that this
country would consider herself freed from the engagement of
keeping the initiative for Spain, they ought once more to con.
-shier the importance of taking the last and decisive step
equally called for by the opinions and honour of the country
and the. interests and prosperity of trade. Recognition might
be deemed a mere matter of form after all that had been done,
hut all knew that the most important consequences were de-
rived from the peculiar modes in which things were carried
into effect. There was nothing more important than that it
-should be tattle impossible for any Court in this country to
throw doubts on the recognition of the independence of
those States which it must be the desire of every one to
see firmly established. Without speaking of South Ame-
rica, there were two States, at least those of Colombia
and Buenos Ayres, whose independence was as well esta-
blished as that of any State in Europe, and indeed better
than that cf the country itself in behalf of whom delay in
the recognition of the former bad been granted. It was his
Arm conviction, that, at the present moment their independence
might be properly recognised ; and it was his anxious hope,
that previously to the next meeting of Parliament, in pursuance
-to the declarations made by his Majesty's Government, such
recognition would have taken full effect. Should this hope
be disappointed, he should then exert himself, as far as it
lay within his power, to insure the attainment of so desirable
an object.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL stated, that the conduct of his
Majesty's Government, during the whole Session, had been
perfectly plain, distinct, and explicit. When the Noble Mar-
quit had brought forward the motion to which he had alluded,
he (the Earl of 'Liverpool), in explaining the course of policy
,eirsned, had stated that three points were to be considered._
'With respect to the first, whether there had been any engage-
ment between-this country anti other States, Spain excepted,
which formed a bar to the consideration of the question, he had
then declared, and he should now repeat, that this country was
bouad by no engagement, expressed or implied, with any State
in Europe, to delay the recognition of South American inde-
pendence ; that his Majesty's Ministers considered themselves
complenAy free to exercise their own judgment according to
eircumstances; and that whatever way their judgment Was
exercised, the question was purely and solely a British ques-
tion. The second point related to the propriety of allowing
Spain to take the first step in the recognition of her former
colonies. All that had s'etce passed had confirmed him in the
opinion, that as the recognition by the Mother Country was
the only one de jerc, till it had been made, some degree of
.inconvenience would always exist between that country and
,other States. But this he had not represented as a bar to
recognition, but only as a reason to make an effort, hopeless
perhaps, but not the lees just on that account, to induce the
Government to be the first to make that recognition.
ire had now no difficulty to state that every effort to that
ef!:ect having failed, his Majesty's Government did not con-
vdve itself precluded by any obligation,- moral or of any
other nature, from recognizing the independence of the South
American States, but felt itself as free both in policy and obli-
get],in of city kind towards Spain, es it hail done in the former
instance towards other States. The third and last point to
which he had directed their bords!iip's attention at the time
was toe face that Commissioners and Consuls had been sent
io ageertain the state of those countries, and to form a j.udg-
-intent whether their Governments had acquired a degree of per-
manency which would ailbrd grounds for completing the recog-
nition of their independence. This was the only point on
which the question now stood, and when he stated that that in-
formation had not yet been received in this country, he stated
that which he trusted must satisfy the [louse that there hod
been no unnecessary delay. lie repeated that this country was
urder no obligation, direct or implied, to delay her recognition
•of th, S th American States when it should appear consistent

terests and cilaracter to :nake it. The question was

.:;tely open question, and his Majesty's Government
•o-t on the information which they should receive on its
aro ; ,1 oi the manner most consonant with the welfare of the
COo :7. He hoped that he had made the House perfectly nn-
de:.:.,:: what was the present state of the relations between
this Gointry and South A:neriea.
PROTEST AGAINSI"I'HE EARL MARSHAL'S BILL.
- Lord HOLLAND, before proceeding to the motion for which
he had given notice, was desirous that the minutes of Friday,
the tdth, Saturday, the 19:1i, and Monday, the 21st of June, !
should be read. lie could not but express his satisfaction at
seeing on the last day of the Session, previous to die proroga-
tion,-suc:i a state of the House. Ile was happy to have the
good fOrtune of addressing so numerous an assembly of Peers.
lie felt much satisfaction that the delicate of otter—for delicate
lie could not but.coli it, which he was about to bring forward,
would receive the .cooslderatioa of so full a lions". He felt
satisfaction also, that if iiris recollection as to
facts, that tie spoke in the presence of man:. I?._!:sons who
• witnessed what had passzLl, and he was sure. whatever might be
their opinieu with too:poet to toe hill, would acknowledge the
correctness of his statements where they were correct, or set hits
right if he should in any respect be to error. This he not only
looked forward to ; he exoected that those who were present
would bear 101 l evidence to the statement of facts 'he was
shout to make:-, and upon which lie should call upon their Lord-
sliips to give their sanction to the resolution with which
lie intended to conclude. But if their Lordships should
.not agree to adopt his proposition, they would at least bear
•- this in mind,—teat it was not impossible, even at the short-
est notice, to procure a numerous meeting of that House.-
-Their Lordships had given a practical proof that at this very
late period of the sesszon, a fait attendance of Peers could be
obtained on 24 hours notice. Those persons, therefore, who
had such a feverish apprehension on all subjects connected with
this important Pill as it was called, must have had a full oppor-
tunity to att,..id'they
pleased. He then moved that the mi-
o
mites be read. [Here the minutes were read by the Clerk.
After some :m•era across the table between. Lords Liver-
pool and Holland, it was agreed, that toe minutes of the first
-two days should only be read,. in as far as they related to the
Earl .%larshal's Bill, but those of Monday enure.]—His Lord-
ship also moved the reading of the following

- .
Pit OTEST.
" DISSENTIF,!•7T.—Because, on general principles, I object
to any concession to Roman Catholics, either collectively or in-
dhitlually ; and the Bill violates the Constitution,
a Protestant
by enabling
a Papist to hold high office near the perso:i of
are
Kir., and dispenses with those oaths which
.Protestants..
with
.v
-bound to take. Because the practical effect of dispensinga
. the oath of supremacy to Papists, must of necessity create
constitutional jealousy on the part of the Protestants, thereby
g -A-. erating feuds. and aniziosittcs, most especially at the present
tune, when Papists avow their intentions by language and acts
8° ',u,disti,uisett, that they cannot be inisunacrstood.
`• Bec..tuse to sanc:ion the separation of the oaths of alle-
g;`:•-“_: and supremacy, is to establish a most dangerous and
_ ala:m:i7:f preecient, in asmuch- as the union of cnurch and
state, forms-the basis of our constitutional greatness and ex.ccl-
,kncei freedom an.l security. And lastly, because at this very
• latc period of the S'',tsion, and at the early hour of five o'clock,
-i-,-.:-;t-e Peers arrived at -t±,e House, the present decision cannot
••12:!. considered to be the sense oi: this House, many Peers being
absent, and the House talten quite unawaies. For these rea-
sons, end having the welfare o...iny coqntry indelibly at heart, I
st.,l,f.nrily protest aga,ti,: a Lonstrit course oft
this
Lill, and ot'aer measures of a simi-
lar nature which ar,..
(Signed) . .
p-cwre6lion.
" N EvroAsTLE.
S " ABINGDON."
Lord flO
that he-bed no ocen ,m ke
lii.A
ofresifettrZsre righttetith of .dissentiug• on to nia
It was cer-
;protestations

tainly a strange circumstance that he, who, whether wrong or
justly, had most abundantly used that right, should find himself
called upon to make animadversions on a protest entered on
their Lordships' Journals. He hoped he should prove that he
held that privilege to be most invaluable and sacred. He com-
plained of the present dissent on two grounds :—First, that the
fourth and last reason left a general impression with respect
to the proceedings of the Ilouse exactly the reverse of what
those proceedings should have
.proiluced ; and secondly, be-
cause out of the origiral propositions which were not lass than
sever., only one was fairly matter of judgment, and the other
six included a potent misrepresentation of the proceedings
of the House, or a potent want of recollection, and a direct
reflection on the honour of the Ilouse, accompanied by
a complete denial of the authority of that branch of the
Legislature, tending to subvert all respect for the laws of
the country. It was said, amongst other things, that very late
in the Session the Bill had teen read a third time at the early
hour of five o'clock, whilst Noble Peers were absent, and the
House taken unawares,. What was likely to be the impres- •
sion produced by this assertion on persons unacquainted, as
posterity might be, with the hours at which the House trans- ;
acted business ? Would they not imagine that something corn-I
pletely new to the British Parliament had suddenly sprung up
at the close of the Session ? That the House being taken by
surprise had expressed no opinion upon the measure ? That it
had been hurried through with indecent rapidity, and that no
pains had been taken to draw attention to the subject ? Was
not that the impression which would remain on the mind of
e4'ery man who read the Protest ? But so far from this being
the general complexion of the transaction, the Bill when in-
troduced had in substance and for object that which had been
under the consideration of the House during the greater part
of the Session. It had come recommended by individuals
of high authority, and of various opinions on the merits of
the Catholic Question. It had formed part of a Bill which had
been rejected, it was true, but which had been rejected on other
grounds, and it was the very part against which no objection
whatever hail been urged, except one of form. ,The arguments
of the Protect, and the most difficult part of the task which he
had imposed upon himself was that of abstaining from remark-
ing on those arguments, applied more stronely to the Bill which
had been proposed by the 'Noble Earl opposite (the Eacise Oaths
Bill) and which had passed withontany opposition and become
an Act of Parliament, than to that to which they immediately
referred. It was even expected that the same Noble Earl would
have proposed the latter ; but he had explained Inc conduct in
not doing so, not by saying that he objected to such a measure,
but by showing that the dignity of the Earl Marshal so difired
from that of the individuals for whom he legislatured, that they
could not be united in the same Bill, and also that there was an
urgent necessity for the passing of the latter to enable the Hovern-
ment to go on with the important arrangements then in progress.
—Could any man after this say, that the Ilouse bad been taken
by surprise, and the measure not expected ? Not a day had
passed since the period to which he had alluded, without some
conversation taking place in the Ilouse 'n the propriety of in-
troducing such a Bill. A stroke of Providence had at last re-
duced the Earl Marshal to a situation in which he would soon
be compelled to appoint a Deputy, and it was the sense of both
Houses, that he ought to be relieved from such a situation.—
Was it then fair to tell posterity that the House had been taken
' unawares? He should stand up for the privileges of the Majo-
rity thus far, that they must have the means of recording a court-
' ter statement. The Noble Lard then referred to that part of the
Protest which stated that the measure lied been proposed at a
very late period of the Session. Late with reference to what ?
To other Sessions and years ? Their Lordships' Journals
would show that it was a week later last year when a Bill which
was acknowledged to hove an unconstitutional object, the. Irish
Insurrection Act, was introduced to that House and passed.—
Year after year, Bills coercive of the liberty of the subject and
enacting severe penalties had been brought in still later. Were
they to be passed without opposition, on eccouut of their
nature, and were those which obtained concessions, however
small, to be alone resisted ? The next point related to the
early hour of five o'clock. Now in these few words there were
two propositions : first, that five o'clock was an early hour ; se-
condly, that the Bill had been read five o'clock. He disputed
both. In the first place live o'clesk was the hour adopted by
• their Lordships for proceeding to public business, out of courtesy
and convenience to all parties. It was too much therefore that
because what the regular practice of Parliament allowed to do
had been done, that should be recorded on the Journals of the
House as a crime. But he contended that it was later than five
o'clock when the Bill had been read a third time. As far as
his recollection went, as soon as the minute hand had reached
the figure twelve, he had gone to the table, and took the Bill
in his band. He then heard sonic person say " move, and go
on," hut he answered, " no, let the Petitions be presented first."
—Eight Petitions were then presented on different subjects,
one by a Noble Friend near him, which oecasioned some con-
versation at the table. A Noble Duke, it friend and relation
of his (the Duke of Richmond), had then presented live, and
stated their heads another Noble Lord inA presented one, anti
a Noble Earl had moved some returns, which had been ordered.
It was not sill alt this had been done, which had taken seine time,
that he (Lord li.) had risen. He certainly had not delayed the
House by many observations, but he had moved that the Order
lof the Day be read,- and afterwards that the Bill itself be read
a third time; and in doing so he had spoken a few sentences,
not to create a debate on a subject on which he believed all
were agreed, lint enough to draw attention :o it. lie did not
deny that he was anxious the Bill should pass at an early hour,
because he wished that it might go tlwough one stage in the
other House the same evening. The Protest said that the
third reading had taken place before Peers had arrived ; but
he contended that there was a considerable number of Peers in
the House, and he declared on his honour that if any one of
them had proposed to postpone the third reading to allow other
Peera to arrive, he would have consented to it. He would not
' have been afraid in that case of too full an attendance, but
rather of a loss of attendance, for at five o'clock the benches of
the House were generally much better filled than at half-past
six or seven. And if there were a wish to surprise the House,
it might much more easily be done at a later than an early
hour. This was proved by the practical experience of tkat very
day, for a Bill had came up enacting the severest punish-
meats on the subjects of this country, on principles not to be
found on the statute books. And yet that Bill, notwithstanding
its importance, had been passed the very same night,, and when
there were fewer Peers present than when the Earl Marshal's.
Bill had been read a third time. The. Welch Judicature Bill
had also passed late, and when there were only eleven Peers
in the House, as a division had proved. He wished either of
the Noble Lords who had sieeed the Protest, had divided
the House, when the Earl Marshal's Bill had passed, alai he
was sure that five or six times that number would have
been found to be preseet. That Protest said that the decision
In favour of the third reading was not the sense of the Ilouse.
Let their Lordships look to time consequences of such doctrine,
if it were allowed to question the sense of Parliament as ex-
pressed in its votes. What were the laws ? Were they not
what contained the sense of Parliament, and if the manner
in which they had hem passel was to be considered, would there
not be an end of them. Would their Lordships have. the. Test
Act tried that -way, the law which excluded thitholica from
Parliament? Let them hear what an old Protestant historian
(Ralph.) who lived 70 years after, and who having been brought
up a Puritan had no prejudices in favour of Popery, said
about the manner in which it had passed. He had said
that the whole had been carried rather like a riot in a' mob
than as by the Representatives of the people. Was not that
act on that account the net of Parliament? Was it not to
be considered as expressing their eense ? Sense or nonsense
it was their vote, and the law of the land, and every Peer
wl'io took his seat was also ahead to take the oaths which
it imposed. The Protest said many Lords were absent ;
but it was not on t'ais Bill alone that many Lords were ab-
sent : they were equally so on all Bills, and he had never
known but one inset:. 'a of the absolute majority of Peers
being present in that House. The whole number was, he
believed, 3M ; and he did not recollect any division on whidi
176 bad been found present. The Noble Lord then shewed
that their Lordships had been summoned on all the stages of
the Bill, and might therefore have attended to oppose the third
reading if they had pleased. Ile then shewed that there were
two precedents, one in 1701, anti the otherinp, for
ex-
punging Protests front the Journals of the Ilouse, on
the
ground, it was believed, that facts h
ad been incorrectly stated,
for one of them had been so effectually expunged, that no
trace remained on the books or in the puhlications of the time.
—But he did not propoee to follow that course. He would
revert to a still older precedent, committed to posterity by
,the
pen of Lord Shaftesbury. lie mearh the protest signed by that
bllolb,lewiPliecehr,afnotri atlilletiliersetrotiirinTei.t men of the House, against that
• the Peerage of this country, byi:eix.raileTien'gi(f).nroitihiel:beeirrtshrianghota. oath
previous to the discharge of their functions—that bill which
was licentiously called the Bishop's Test. The language of the
protest was thought to deny the authority of Parliament, but
it was left with its reasons on the Journals, to go down to pos-
terity. His last ransack should be with respect to that part of
the present dissent, in which the Noble Lords who said the
House had been taken by
Bill, and measures of the same sort which were now in a course
of pro.);ression." I
_t would appear, therefore, that their Lord-
s'arPriss, protested " against this
shis were taken unawares by things in a regular train of pro-
`—Ws hjr;:siup then moved a 'Resolution, minutely
gression
detailing the connn menceanent. and progress of the bill for dis-
pensing with the oath of supremacy to the Earl Marshal, from
its itaroductien to the third reading on the 21st instant.

Lord ABINGDON vies wy: in the habit of addressing their
Lordships, but felt himself:called u
upon to state the reasons which
ss
induced him to sign the dlent alluded to in the speech of the
Noble Lord opposite (Lord !Tolland). The Bill at present no-
,ticed he conceived to he periec.tivinconstitutional. _lie there-
fore looked into their Lordships journals to see if any protest

to it had been entered, and finting one, he felt no hesitation in
signing it—more particularly as we understood his Lordship,_
who was for the most part inaudible below the bar) that if three
months longer had elapsed, lit should have had no opportunity
of expressing an opinion on the measure. The Bill stated, that it
was expedient that the Earl Marshal should be permitted to exer-
cise the duties of his office without subscribing to certain oaths,
but he (Lord A.) thought tlios2 oaths necessary, anti that the oath
of allegiance to his Majesty was not of itself, in the case of Ho-
man Catholics,a sufficient safeguard for the Constinition. The
Noble Lord then proceeded to illostrate the foregoing opinion,
but in so low 4 tone as to prevent us' from catching the exact
import of his expressions. 'il understood him, however, to
say, that he felt no dislike to Roman Catholics personally, nor
did he object to the Bill in question from Such motives. With
the qualifications just enumerated, he was quite willing to agree
to the motion of the Noble Lord.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE was so unused to address their '
Lordships, that he trusted they would excuse him from follow-
ing the 'Noble Baron opposite (Lord Holland) through the nu-
merona details embraced in his speech. Ho .should content
himself with what he conceived to be a short statement of the
facts of the case. He, however, had no objection to make to
the temper in which the present motion had been introduced
that nothing hurtful to his (the
as he wasof.Newcastle's)
acknowledget.
g
had been uttered by the Noble
Lord. He also wished to say, that in no respect was he ini-
mical to the Noble Duke who held the office of Earl Marshal ;
but on the contrary would rather render him a service than a
disservice. The present Bill he considered a favour to the
Roman Catholicsa and as such it met with his decided opposi-
tion. Under any circumstances be should have protested
against it; and to the last hour of ,his life would continue in
the same sentiment. With regard to the fourth reason assigned
in the Dissent, he should assert that every thing alleged in the
Protest was true. Ile never would subscribe to what he did
not consider truth: As every other person, however, he was
liable to error ; and though he would not admit that he had
fallen into such in this instance, if the house conceived otherwise
he was willing to abide by its decision. lie must at the same time
affirm, that he thouehathe,liillirectuestion was passed with in-
deceot rapidity. On Friday last the first notice of it was given to
the! louse, and on Sato May it was read a second time, its commit-
tal dispensed with, and read a third time and passed on Monday.
He saw it was then five o'cioek,--it might perhaps have been five
minutes after that hour, but he certainly thought the time un-
usually early for a Bill to be carried through the House. He
knew it to be a fact that several Noble Lords were absent on that
occasion because they were too late. If any thing he stated
was erroneous he was cony for having fallen into the mistake ;
and although he was reluctant to retract any opinion he had
expressed, lie was willing to subscribe to the sense of the
House. In conclusion, he was not prepared to differ from any
part of the statement contained in the motion of the Noble
Lord opposite (Lord Holland), and left himself entirely at the
mercy of their Lordship's decision.
Lord CLIFDEN said, that a, great deal had been said about
the Pope, but for his part he thought there was as much dan-
ger of Jupiter becoming again dominant. He was averse from
all asperity of language in treating of the Roman Catholics and
• their claims.

The Marquis of LANSDOWN denied that it had ever been
his intention to abandon the subject of the dispensation for the
Earl Marshal.

The Duke of RICHMOND said, that having been appealed
to by the Noble Lord (Lord Holland), he rose merely to state
that it was past five o'clock when he presented five petitions to
the House on Monday last.

The LORD CH NCE LLOR felt himself bound to say, that
after a Bill passed that House, it must be taken to expr:ss the
sense of the House generally, whatever might be thought of
the measure out of doors. if it were supposed that the sense
of the House was not correctly expressed, a means remained
of determining that point (though not immediately), and a
repeal of the Act might be moved at a subsequent period. Ire
would also observe, that if a Bill passed at eleven o'clock in
the morning, it was nevertheless to be taken as the sense
of the House. With respect to the oath of supremacy, to
which allusion had been made, he believed he was borne
out by all his predecessors in saying, that it was substan-
tially contained in the oath of allegiance. The oath of su-
premacy in the case of Catholics Was only deemed necessary,
as Lord Hale said, to unrivet the errors which crept in by
means of Popery. As to the motion before the House, he had
no objection to admit its allegations, he only wished it to con-
tain all the facts which had occurred. lie should therefore
moved that after "Saturday" should be inserted, " a Bill read
a first time on Friday"--aid subsequently, that it was read a
third time, " the house passing over the Order of the Day for
the Welch Judicature 13111." lie did not, however, wish to
say, that all orders should be taken precisely as they stood
on the Order Book of the House. But he was pretty eert,da
that if, for
.instance, the division on the Welch Judicature Dill
had been taken eariier on the night referred to, the result, in-
stead or beim, eigh, to three, would have been very differentlycollected. It U 95141: tily was not unnatural that Noble Lords
seeing the rotatiin tie orders for discussion, should suppose
that a particular one which stood last might not come on first,
and. n'ria.

Lord LAUDERDALE said, the House knew no rule by
which the tirst or second order, or any other was to be peremp.
torily disposed of.
The LORD CHANCELLOR explained.
Lord HOLLAND agreed in opinion with his Noble Friend
who spoke last (Lord Lauderdale). After what had fallen
from the Noble Duke oppogite (the Duke of Newcastle), he
should add, as an amendment to his motion, what he thought
would express the unanimous sense of the House—namely,
that those who had signed the Dissent should subscribe only to
such reasons, or parts of reasons in the present Motion as may
appear to them to merit their approbation.
The question was then put on Lord Ho'. LAND'S motion
which was agreed to : aftz:r which, the House Adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
MISCH. LLANI:OUS.

The House was summoned in the usual way to hear the
Royal Assent given by Commission to several Bills.
Mr. HART DAVIS presented a petition from the Retail
Brewers of Bristol, against certain provisions of the Beer MIL
Laid on the table.

Sir J. YORKE presented a Petition from Mr. Glennie, an
Actuary, for some improvement in the law relating to Friendly
Societies.—Laid on the table.

Mr. HUME brought up the Report of the Committee on
Piivate ilusincss, and made some observations on the imperfect
accorm . dation provided for the reception of Private Com,
mittees.—The Report. was then htid on the table.
Sir J. NEWPORT •presented a Petition, signed by 2,5a6
Roman Catholics of the County of Waterford, praying for re-
laxation of the Laws of Disqualification which effect their body.
The Petition was couched in temperate but forcible language.
They stated, that there was no hope of pacification for Ireland,
unless a complete abolition of .distinction was effected.—The
Petition was laid on the table.
Mr. C. PELFIAM presented a Petition from Whitchureh,
.
against Negro Slavery.—Laid on the table.
' ' 11ISII CURRENCY.
Sir H. PARNELL said Aliat,_ he was anxious to know from
the Right lion. Gentleman opposite, if it was intended to take
any steps towards assimilating the currencies of Great Britain
and Ireland: • .
Mr. WALLACE said, that every hour he considered the
subject he was morn convinced of the importance of it ; and
he hoped to be able, in. an early stage of the next Session, to
bring in a bill for assimilat'lng the currencies of the two coon-
tries.—(llear !) .
Trus.4.cmPQRATIONS.
Mr. BROUGHAM. said that, intending in the next Session
• to bring in a bill respecting Irish Corporations, he wished to
move for the production, of certain returns calculated to throw
light en the subject. He then moved for certain returns.
Mr. GOULBURN said he was not disposed to acquiesce: in
the motion-to the extent mentioned- by the Hon. Gentleman.
After a few words from Sir-J. NEWPORT, Mr. GRATTAN,
and Mr. ARERCROMRY, the motion was negatived without a
division.
PETITION FROM THE DEBTORS IN THE SURREY,
I yr
bore
ileool :If I ltheO
Gaol against certain
GAOL, AND CASE (IF' CA PT. O'CALLAGHAN.
CDSAto7sidini
thell
regulations which iethie-osseurtroepyresent a Petition from
imposed upon tliem many grievousrestrictions.
These renrictions and limitations were contained in the Gaol
Act, the 4th of Geo. IV. c. 64, which gave some rules, but in
so undefined a manner that it became the duty of the House to
guard against ;be abuses which might be practised by the unpaid
Magistracy under colour of it, BY the 12th and 14th sections.
the Justices of the Peace were entiticd to. lay down such rules
as to them might seem meet. There was no saying to what ex-
tent this power might be carried. If they prescribed one ounce
of bread and a
glass of water to the debtors, he saw no objec-
tions which could be made to it under that Act. As to the
Surrey Magistrates, against whom. the complaint was made, he
begged to say that he heard nothing which could derogate from
the high respectability of those Gentlemen who composed the
Bench; and he was sure that his Hon. Friend below him (Mr.
Denison) and the Chairman,. with whom he (Mr. Hobhouse)
had the honour of being acquainted, were incapable of perpe-
trating injustice; yet after the treatment which Captain O'Cal-
laghan had received from the Bench—(Hear, hear!)—he was
induced to look with suspicion on every thing which they did.
The petitioners complained dial one hour only was allowed
them for providing food and other necessaries; and that on
Sunday the period was limited to half an hour. Their friends
might reside at a distance, and if they did not arrive at the
gaol between eleven and twelve o'clock, the time fixed,
they must be obliged to wait twenty.four hours, till they

could obtain an interview with them. The Act of Parliment
said, that " food should be introduced into the prison at pro-
per hours ;" but the regulations of Ilorsemonger-lane gave
only one hour. The Act provided that the restrictions and
limitations, as to food and mccesStaries, shotild be so fixed as to
prevent expellee, profusion, and extravagance. Look to the re-
gulations ; nothing except bread and water is allowed ; and on
inquiry, he found that the cruelty bore so excessively on those
who were subject to it, that die gaoler himself departed from the
regulations. To allow the prisoners to purchase whatever food
they chose was certainly more consistent with the spirit of the
English law, than to fix the-quantity and the quality of it.—
(ilear ! )—There was actually no cookshop, no huckster, no per-
son who sold b titling, within the limits of the prison ; and if a
prisoner wished bread and cheese, he could not get it. He had
heard that a girl, who hod gone to see her mother in the gaol,
with a bun under.her arm, was sent back, lest she should give
it to her and relieve her hunger.—(Cries of hear, hear !)--The
petitioners complained of another regulation, which'allowed no
visitor to attend them till after five o'clock in the evenhig • the
consequence of' which was, that petty tradesmeo' who could not
leave their business till after that time, anti the lawyers, whose
occupation did not permit them to conic abroad till a late hour,
could not get access to the debtors for friendly intercourse or
business. In the King's Bench. in the Fleet, and in the Mar-
ehalsea, there were no such regulations. In the summer season
the prison was shut up at six o'clock in the evening, so that the
petitioners were prevented
.from walking in the evening in the
purlieue of the prison, in order to obtain healthful exercise.
Who were these who were subject to this great and monstrous
description of punishment ? They were debtors—persons who
were accused of no crime, and who demanded all kindness and
humanity. Under there circumstances the petitioners prayed
the Ilouse to amend the Gaol Act. He hoped something would
be done to remedy their grievances, and to abridge the dis-
cretionary power of the Magistrates. He did not mean to say that
they wilfully abused their powers ; but sonic of them had given
rise to abuses to cautious and over-prudent conduct.—(llere
Mr. Secretary Peel entered the House.)—He was glad to see
the Right lion. Secretary in his place; he wished to have seen
hint there when he presented the petition. The debtors asked
the Right Hon. Gentleman to take into his serious considera-
tion the necessity of interfering With prison regulations. Ile
(Mr. H.) did not know how the law stood; but he understood
that the Magistrates had divested themselves of the power of
doing this. In the ease of Copt. O'Callaghan, the Magistrates
had referred him to the Visiting .lustices ; and yet these 3 ustices
had no power granted to them by the Quarter Sessions. The
evil cried loudly tier a remedy. Suppose a person was put into
the gaol at twelve o'clock in the forenoon, by the regulations he
could receive no food till eleven o'clock the next day..—( Hear !)
so that he must fast 23 hours. The only relief he could obtain
was by taking the gaol allowance, which was eighteen ounces of
bread and water ; but even this pittance could not be got till
nine o'clock; thus placing the unfortunate prisoner in a dilemma
whether he was to that 21 or 23 hours, unless indeed his fellow-
prisoners shared their scanty allowance with Min. The Hon.
Gent. concluded with moving that the petition be brought up.
Mr. DENISON said that he agreed in many parts of the
speech of his Hon. Friend. He disliked the existing Gaol Act,
and he hoped that they would recur to the old system, which
was infinitely preferable to the new. (Hear !) While he
thanked his Hon. Friend for the compliment he had passed
upon him, he (Mr. D.) could not receive it at die expense of his
brother Magistrates ; for though undoubtedly they, like their
fellow men, were liable to fhll into error, yet he could say with
truth that no Magistrates felt it sincerer desire to do their duty,
• and to promote the welfare of their country.—(Hear!)— lie
thought the petitioners had directed their battery against the
wrong quarter; it was not the Visiting Magistrates who were
to blame; the fault was in the law of the land. One of the
regulations provided that no spirituous or fermented liquors were
to be allowed without the consent of the surgeon ; anti another
gave the option to the individual to take the gaol allowance or
to provide his own food. There was certainly a wide distinction
between a prisoner and a debtor. Debtors ought to be treated
with leindness and humanity; security of the person and not
punishment was •the cause of their confinement. He admitted
that there were two regulations which were very objectionable.
The first was the limitation of the time for bringing in food;
and the other the two great restrictions upon the intercourse of
the debtors with their friends. At present the doors are thrown
open at nine in the morning and arc closed at three in the winter
season, and in summer they continued open till five o'clock.—
Now he thought that the tune ought to be extended till four in
winter, and to six or seven in summer, or, at least to a reasonable
time. But as this matter would undergo a discussion before the
Magistrates to-morrote morning, he would not allude farther to
it at this time. As to the case of O'Callaghan he had neither read.
the trial, nor did he know the particulars. lie had heard a re-
port of it from an Hon. Friend who was a-Member of the House;
and on the Monday after the conviction he went to Horsenion-
ger-lane, and told the jailor that there must be sonic mistake
about the restrictions which had been imposed upon that Gentle-
man ; and lie (Mr. D) requested that food, a newspaper, 84c.
should be afforded to him ; and he referred to the surgeon 9.3 to
the use of spirituous liquors. To his Noble Friend who pre-
sided on the Bench, the country was deeply. indebted; and no
one could tax him with harshness or inhumanity.—(Hear,
hear !)—His Noble Friend had no idea of that individual being
treated in such a manner; and in a letter which he (Mr. Do
had from him yesterday morning, he lamented the circumstance.
I Although the Surrey Illagistrates could not be charged with an
abuse of their powers, he thought it qudstionable whether they
ought to sit in the House ; that is to say, both to make and to
execute the laws. Ile merely threw out this hint ; but he hoped
the Secretary of State would allow his merciful feelings to speak
for Mr. O'Callaghan, and procure the remainder of his sentence
to be abridged. He thought that the influence of the gross in-
sult which had been put upon that gentleman, and a conviction
of his innocence, had prevented him from bringing his case
' before the Court of King's Bench, where he would have re-
ceived every indulgence ; but as the case came before the Sur-
rey Sessions, the Magistrates were bound up, and had no re-
medy but to send Mr. O'Callaghan to the county gaol, a place
which was not at all suited for the purpose. Ile wished to see
the old system restored, for little could be hoped for under the
existing Act, .which tended to harden and sour the prisoner's
mind._(Hear !)
Mr. MA BERTA' said, the Quarter Sessions delegated the
power to the visiting Magistrates. These Magistrates were
accountable for their acts, and blame should not be thrown in-
discriminately on the Magistrates of the county, many of
whom were not aware of the existence of their objectionable re-
gulations.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said he regretted the Hon. Member for
Westminster had reason to complain of his absence. Had he the
least hint of the Hon. Gentleman's intention to present the Peti-
tion, he would have made a point of attending; but the House
would not attribute neglect to him, as it knew public men had
-several duties to reconcile. It sometimes happened that
answers were required respecting capital punishments, and he
had to wait till near post time for the decision. He regretted
that he had not heard the Petition, but he believed that he un-
derstood
its nature, and that it was a complaint from the debtors
confined in- Horsemonger-lange Gaol. Before the Gentleman
(Mr. Denison) complained of the law, he recommended him to
look at the old law, and lie would find that one was a mere
compilation of the other, and included no severities not existent
under the old law. He (Mr. Peel) apprehended that he had
no power to interfere in the penal case, and he felt the less
interference he made with the Magistrates of the County the
better, and the more consistent it would be with his duty and
theirs. Every precaution was taken by the Act to guard
against improper regulations, as none could go into ope-
ration until sanctioned by the Judge of Assize. If any thing
harsh occurred on the part of these Gentlemen, lie was con-
vinced they would be ready to listen to proper suggestions, Ile
could say nothing more than express his conviction, that every
thing would be done by a body of Gentlemen like the Magis-
trates of Surrey which could be done. With respect to the
case of Mr. O'Callaghan, it was not long since it was brought
under his consideration. When it was, he immediately had an
interview with Lord Eastnor, and he confessed he was satis-
fied on the propriety of the conviction. Mr. O'Callaghan was
tried according to the law of his country. He was brought
before a Jury and a verdict ofguilty returned against him, and
the Magistrates on that verdict decided his sentence. He
(Mr. P.) took care in his interview with LOrd Eastnor to en-
quire if the Magistrates, in considering the sentence, took into
account the recommendation of the Jury. The answer was in
the affirmative. Under all these circumstances, he did not
think the sentence was severe or that Mr. O'CalLoglian should
be recommended to mercy. There was also a complaint of that
Gentleman's treatment in the prison, but he sent for the gaoler,
and all those complaints were redressed. Mr. O'Callaghan
was allowed a newspaper, to supply himself with provisions,
and to see his friends. On the general question, as the regula-
tions of the gaol were to be submitted 'for revision to the proper
quarter by the Hon. Member for Surrey, he (Mr. P.) saw no
reason to interfere.

Sir NI, DE CRESPIGNY said the whole power was in the
hands of the Quarter Sessions.
Mr. J. GRATTAN complained of the extension of the Gaol
Act to Ireland.
Sir R. WILSON thought the Right lion. Secretary should
have asked Lord Eastnor if the Court took into account the
severity of Mr. O'Callaghan's treatment for six days.
Lord EASTNOR said he would defer any observations on
the subject, as he was not. in the House when the Petition was
read, until a Petition from Mr. O'Callaghan, which he under-
stood was in the bands of an Hon. i%le►nber, was laid before the
House. It was only within the last three hours he had any no-
tice in the. country of the Petition being to be presented that
evening.
Sir F. BJRDETT was convincTd that his Hon, Friend (Mr.
Hobhouse) did not mean to accuse the Right Hon. Secretary
of neglect, in not being in the House when the Petition was

first noticed ;.he merely offered an explanation why he brouglet
forward the petition in the absence of the Right Honourable
Gentleman. He was glad to find the Hon. Member for Surrey
determined to bring the subject before the Magistrates of the
county ; and he had no doubt, from that Gentleman's well.
known humanity, that every thing necessary would be done.—
lie could not help saying that a great share of the fault was in
the l:tw, and alteratiohs simalti be made in it. lie regretted
that a law should exist, by which a debtor was shut up in a so-
litary cell, and treated as a vagrant and a disgrace to society.
Ile cared not for the corporal punishment—but the mental
pain given to a man of feeling was fir more severe; and he
declared that he would rather be hanged than tarifa as this
gentleman appears to have, and be placed, like him, within
the bars of a prison. He wished that the House would go back
to old principles, and take away from the Magistrates the
power of regulating the care of prisoners, and replace it in the
bends of the recognised constitutional officer, the High -Sheriff
of the county.—(Cheers.)
Mr. HOBHOUSE. requested one word of explanation'. -He
was sure Lord Eastnor would not be a party to any cruelty.—
He was not one of the visiting Magistrates, and therefore not
accountable for their acts. With respect to what had fallen
from the iloaourable Member for Surrey (Mr. Denison),
theueli in word he disagreed, yet in tact he admitted the whole
case of privations and injurious regulations. He set eut with
three points and in them all the Honourable Gentleman
concurred. Ile trusted that the new-fangled system would
be done away with, and the old system returaed. He would
almost, rather than its continuance, that they went back a cen-
tury, and huddled men between four walls, without regard to
vice or contagion. With respect to the case of Mr. O'Cal-
leghan, there was a case perfectly similar, to which he would
allude without any intention of giving ofilence. A Gentle-
man (brother of Mr. Secretary Peel), was found guilty of an
assault in shaking his whip at a person who offered-el Ladies
under his protees,on—he was sentenced to a month's inipr:,en-
meat in the flip g's Bench. He (Mr. Hobliotore) had seen -eee
place where the Honourable Gentleman was coeiined—i a
had friends every day to dine with him, and spent his thee
agreeably. The Gentleman was a relation of the Rieio
Honourable Secretary. Here he begged egein to aptilegise
for saying so, as he did not mean to give effence. Ile ho-
noured the Gentleman for what he 'did, and he (Mr. Pub-
house) would have acted precisely in the same manner,
though he suffer-cal a year's confinement for it. lie was the
brother of the Right Ilonoureble Gentleman, and he passed his
time in a good -room well furnished, where his friends might
dine with 'him every day. Ills punishment was merely no-
minal ; but Mr. O'Callaghan was thrown twelve hours out of
the twenty-four into a solitary cell, with brad and water only.
This was, a disgrace greater than any corporal punishment, as
his Hon. Friend had well observed. lie had seen Mr. O'Cal-
laghan, and he believed him to be a most respectable and ho-
nourable man. He must say he never knew a harder sentence,
or one made so much more severe by the mode in which it was
put into execution. There was a case in the Court of King's
Bench a few days since for an assault, and the Chief .Justice
Best instrusted the Jury to find only a farthing damages. As
Mr. O'Callaghan had received a greater punishment than he
was sentenced to, he thought there was a good case made out
for a remission of the remainder of his punishment.
Mr. Secretary PEEI4 assured the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Hobhouse), that lie took no offence at the allusion to , his
brother's case. When his attention was called to Mr. O'Calla-
ghan's business, lie naturally asked himself what punishment
the Court of King's Bench would have probably inflicted, and
his brother's immediately suggested itself. He, besides an. im-
prisonment of one month, was fined 5001. and -obliged to enter
into recognizances to keep the peace for five years, in 3000/.
The Magistrates of Surrey acted with perfect fairness to Mr.
O'Callaghan, and as to his treatment in prison, he was treated
as every person was who was found guilty of a misdemennour.
The law cannot take into account whether the prisoner was a
' gentleman or not. No Act of Parliament said, be it enacted,
because A. B. is a Gentleman. The law placed a certain
power in the hands of the visiting Magistrates who were
ac-
countable for their acts. Whatever causes of complaint there
might have been, tleey were now removed, anti as to the Re-
' commodation in different gaols, he must be excused from en-
tering into a discussion about them.
Mr. DENISON again repeated that part of the gaol disci-
pline which he thought required correction, but at the same
time he felt himself called upon to state, that he believed there
was not in the country a body of gentlemen who endeavoured
to execute their duties more strictly or more honourably than
the Magistrates of the county of Surrey. It was true that
they might have committed some errors, but who were not
I liable to err ? perhaps the lion. Member for Westminster was
free from this frailty ; if so, he must be very fortunate, but let
not hint, who, in the execution of his duty, may be liable to
blame, throw the first stone. If the Prison Discipline Bill
was struck off she 6tatuta Book, he thought the
.prisoners would
bemuch sore otr, and subject to more restrictions.

The Petition way. then icad, laid on the table, and ordered
be printed.
_

311.. ABERCRO3IBY then presented a Petition from the
individual whose name had been mentiomed in the discussion of
the last Petition, The case, he said, had excited some atten-
tion in consequence of the nature of the effence, the recom-
mendation to mercy by the Jury, and the severity of the pu-
nishment. These circumstances alone had caused great public
interest. The Petition stated the circumstances already pub-
lished, and the Hon. Member then proceeded to observe upon
the treatment which the Petitioner had experienced for a whole
week. He wished to know whether the Magistrates would
really have passed such a sentence if they believed the indi-
vidual would have experienced such treatment. He thought
the case particularly called for mercy, though the Petitioner
rather wished for an inquiry into the general practice.
Lord EASTNOR, as Chairman of the Quarter Sessions which
had tried the petitioner, said he had no knowledge of either of
the parties to the trial ;, that • the Court had duly attended to
all the circumstances, and thought it their duty to mark their
opinion of the assault. The provocation, about which so much
had been said, was not of a kind to justify such an outrage ;
and the provocation alleged by the prisoner's Counsel had not
only net been proved, but had been actually contradicted by his
own evidence.

3IABERLY thought the discipline imposed on the pe-
titioner had been unnecessary; and that the Magistrates ought,
therelOre, to recommend him to mercy.
The petition was then read, and after a few words from
Lord EASTNOR, Mr. DENISON', and Mr. ABEItCROMIIT,
was ordered to lie on the table, and be printed.
EDUCATION IN IRELAND.

Mr. Secretary PEEL brought up several ?apers relative to
Education in lreland.—Ordered to be printed.

INSURRECTION ACT.

Mr. C. nuTcHINSON rose to move that the evidence taken
before the Committee on the Insurrection Ac., be laid before
the House. The Committee was not a secret, but only, a select
Committee, and the evidence was therefore already known to
many Members. It was however to be desired that no garbled
statement of this evid.:ree should go before the public. Lie
believed too that many Members of the Committee had under-
stood that the evidence would be laid before the House. The
evidence taken before the Police Committee had been allowed
to be published, even before it was complete ; and the same
had been done in several other cases. The Report of the pre-
sent Committee did not contain the whole of the evidence taken
before them, but only so much as went to support a re-enact-
ment of the law. He did not see what objections there could
be to the production of this evidence. The witnesses were all
respectable, and not likely to give evidence which they
would wish to have concealed. It was publicity alone which
would give any chance to the people of Ireland to obtain
any retirees for the oppresion under which they now suf-
fered. Ile supposed the Committee had gone into all the
great questions affecting the state of Ireland, including Tithes
and Emancipation. All, however, that they lied produced as
the fruit of their labours, was the Insurrection Act: He had
no doubt the evidence would afford much useful information
relative to the state of Ireland, particularly as to that of the
labouring poor; and next Session the House week come to
the subject fully prepared with all its details. Ire really be-
lieved, that if the distresses which prevailed in i r,-;and were to,
take place in Yorkshire, Lancashire, or an other county of
• England, all the force of the empire would not be sufficient
to keen the people quiet. He concluded by moving that there
be laid before the House a copy of the whole of the evidence
taken before the Committee appointed to enquire into the
dis-
turbed districts of Ireland.
Mr. GRA'rTAN seconded the motion.
Lord PA I.3IERSTON opposed the motion. He denied that
the Committee had any wish to withhold from the House anY
part of the material evidence. Two Members of the Commit.'
tee had been nominated to select the evidence applicable to the
Act, whether for or against it, and these Members were chosen
• from different sides of the House. The Committee had dis-
tinctly stated that they had gone into a wide range of inquiry,
which they could not possibly go through this Session. They
added a wish_ for their appointment next Session, in order to
go through the subject. The evidence, therefore, as it now
stood, would indeed be a partial statement, to which the 1-10 r.
Member had very properly so much objection. The Commit-
tee had no desire for concealment or mystery ; they had given
the utmost latitude for examination and inquiry, and when
their labours were completed, they would report the whole of
the evidence they had taken. .

Mr. JOHN SMITH supported the motion, believing that
the publication of the evidence would be beneficial.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT, as a Member of the Committee,
declared the impression on his mind to be that it was intended
to publish the evidence. He thought more dissatisfaction
would be caused by the suppression than there possibly could

e.

be by the publication of the evidence.' If thele were any
errors in it, a publication might lead to their correction.
Mr. (10IJI,BLJRN said, ha had no impression or. his mind
that the Committee intended to publiSh the whole of 'the evi-
dence. As a proof that they did not he hid only to mention
the circumstance of their giving mere extracts of the evi-
dence. The argument of the Right Hon. Baronet would go to
chew that no Committee of that nouse ought to make a report
until several months after they had published their evidence.—
The Committee had,• however, forborne to publish a consider-
ble portion of the ea&idence, front the very wish not to put forth
any partial statement affecting individuals. Their doing other-
wise. would have excited much party feeling. He saw no reason
for e.oncurring in the motion.
Colonei TRENCH then rose en said, that as the subject
before t:,e House was one of considerable importance, he did
not think it ought to be discussed in the present stare of the
House, which he therefore moved should be counted.
This was accordingly done; and there being but 36 Members
present, the House adjourned at Half-past Selen..