The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-06 00:00:00

it 11
.1641

sentenced in this country for some most heinoui offences,

if they were good mechanics or workmen, instead of
finding themselves worse off than they had hoen
in this ettuntry, they found their situations infinitely
improved. Ile remembered the case of some convicts
sent fr-in this cuuctry ; they were agricultural labourers
sentenced in consequecce of the riots of 1830, when so
severe a distress existed in Kent and Dorsetshire.
Many of them were extremely good aoricidtund
labourers, and consequen• ly their services were
much sought after. When they were assigned
their masters were extremely anxious to keep them in
ood humour ; and these men, whom the Government
meant to punish, were far better off than they had ever
been in England. The cause of these riots was the
severe pressure and distress which existed ; and they
who had Lem receiving 7s. nr 85. per week wages, and
living on the most scanty diet, received the most enor-
mous rations out in their place of transportation.
In some cases it was no punishment at all, while in other cases
it was a punishment of the severest kind. In many cases the
assigned convict was a frightful slave to his master, who, if he
were brutal or urgent, might subject him to a continued system
of annoyance and ill-treatment, and if he were stung into mu-
tiny and resistence, he was liable to be dragged before a ma-
gistrate, who, upon the representation of the master, sentenced
him to the most cruel corporal punishment. The returns on
this subject showed that this punishment was one of the great-
est suffering. This punishment was without its moral effect
in deterring crime, while those, who from the circums•ance he
had described, were better treated, wrote to their friends, tell-
ing them how well they were off, and holding forth induce-
ment to them, to the commission of crime, to enable them to
come out to them. When he was Under-Secretary for the
Colonies he had opportunities of seeing several of these letters,
which painted the condition of the writers in very glowing co-
lours. No doubt these represents. ions were sometimes false, but
their tendency was injurious. The Committee of 1838 had some
to a determination that the system of assignment should be done
away with, and a resolution to that effect was laid before the
House of Commons. Measures were then taken to abolish that
system, and it was determined that a much smaller number
should be sent out than before. The system which Lord John
Russell then proposed to introduce was to extend the system of
imprisonment at home. But in 1841 it was moved that it was
inexpedient that there should be such a number of convicts in
the hulks. That motion was resisted on the part of the Go-
vernment, but it was carried by a great majority of the House
of Commons. He believed this occurred when there were few
in the House, and in the month of March, and it happened to-
wards the conclusion of the Melbourne Administration; and no
measure was adopted for carrying that resolution into effect
during the Melbourne Administration. But there was a
change of Government. It was determined that the views of
the House of Commons should be acted upon, and after a good
deal of discussion, it was decided that the convicts
should be sent abroad, except a comparatively
small number, such as were more proper
subjects of the discipline of Pentonville, Parkhurst, and the
hulks, and those whose age made it expedient to send them out
of the country ; but the rest were sent either to the Bermudas
or to Norfolk Island. In consequence of that measure a large
number were sent to these parts. He confessed that at the
time he entertained the strongest convietions that this would
lead to a very great evil, that great mischief would result to
those colonies unless there was a system for carrying on pu-
nishment adequate to the occasion. Their Lordships would
remember, too, that at that great distance from the control of

Government, anything unusual, or requiring attention,
could only receive that after a year's delay and writing home to
the Government. Looking at that their Lordships must feel that
the difficulty of curving out a system of penal labour was
great indeed. In I'S-13', therefore, although previously the
system had been adopted to a considerable extent, a large
number of convicts were yet to be sent abroad.
If. however, he said transportation to Van Dieman's Land had
been confined to a small number of persons, he believed

that the impression produced on the imagination of
men respecting punishment inflicted by society, and at a dis-
tance. and the regret of being lost sight of by their friends
would have counterbalanced the evil, in a great mea'ure, of
carrying out that system of punishment at a distance. But
when this system was still applied generally—not to a few
hundreds, as proposed originally, but to many thousands—when
a system of this kind was carried out in Bermuda, he believed
it was utterly impossible that any other result could have been
anticipated than that which actually occurred. Now, he
thought the papers which had been lately laid on the table
would prove to their Lordships that the anticipations which had
been formed with respect to this system were but too well
founded ; but he would not disgust their Lordships by the
horrible, the monstrous details of the abuses which had
sprung up in Norfolk Island. A state of things had been
proved, upon evidence, to exist thee, the particulars of which
could not be doubted by the general effect of that evidence,
which made it perfectly clear that a system had been allowed
to grow up in that small island, the details of which, were too
horrible to mention.—(Hear.) It had been proved to the dis-
grace of the British name, that a system existed there which
was a disgrace to the British flag. Very shortly after he was
appointed to the office which he had the honour to hold, he
found that the condition of Van Dieman's Land was so con-
elusive against any continuation of the system, that he in-
structed the new Governor, before he left this country, to
break up the establishment there, and he was happy to find
that his predecessor (Sir E. Wilmot) had anticipated that
order, as he had taken measures to break up the convict esta-
blishments in the island. The fearful outbreak in the island
would perhaps have been successful, had not some troops op-
portunely arrived; had they not, they might have over-
powered the small body of troops, and destroyed the free in-
Habitants of the colony. The breaking up of the establish-
ment was, therefore, inevitable; but he was concerned to state
that Van Dieman's Land was not in a much better state ; it

was in a state fearful to enter into, and those of their Lordships
who had looked at the evidence could not fail to be dissatisfied
with the present condition of that colony. He had often heard
of the abuses of the hulks, but he must say the worst of them
was well managed compared with the colony of Van Dieman's
Land. He had :every evidence that the system was as bad as
it could well be. For though the governor and superinterdents
of the colony did not altogether support this extreme view of the
state of things, Sir Eardley Wilmot and Sir John Franklin,
admitted that the system was most injurious. From other
quarters he had received accounts to a similar effect. Last
year the Noble Lord the President of the Council presented
a petition signed by the Bishop of the colony and a great
number of the most respectable inhabitants, calling attention
to the deplorable state of things. It was signed by from 1.7150
to 1,800 of the colonists, who described in the strongest terms
the condition to which the colony had been reduced, and that
there was no security for I, fe and property. He had also seen
within the last few months persons from the colony who, to
the fullest extent, supported this view of the state of things. lie
had seen the Protestant Bishop, as well as the Roman Ca-
tholic Bishop, and both the night Reverend Bishops stated
that the future prospects of the colony were frightful to con-
template. Then, with regard to the expenditure which had
been necessary to effect this system of transportation, it
was so large, that he was convinced, had it
been applied under a well conceived system of em-
ploying the convicts in this country, it would have
been sufficient to erect places of punishment of the best
character for those who offended the laws. Under the present
system the colony had been almost ruined. But further, he
was forced to say that in consequence of this system it was too
true that a great many of the most valuable settlers in Van
Dieman's Land had been forced to quit. A most serious blow
had been given to the property of the colony by this large in-
flux of convicts which was ptured into it. Van Dieman's
Land had been formerly a thriving and prosperous colony, but
from the time that this enormous influx of convicts was poured

into it, the state of things was greatly altered. He was far
from attributing that change to that circumstance alone. He
knew that commercial distress existed in this country—that
there was a reaction from over speculation, and from varicus
other causes of that kind. No doubt the distress in Great
Britain bad assisted the change in the colony, but it was
also certain that the system of sending large numbers of con-
victs to Van Diemen'. Land was one cause of the failing in
that prosperity. And it had been said thct the deterioration in
that colony was not so much owing to the system
as to the inability of the persons by whom that system had
been carried out ; it had been said that a greater degree of
energy on the part of the principal officers, to whom the Go-
vernment had committed the superintendence of Van Dieman's
Land and Norfolk Island anti instructed the management of
the convicts, would have produced a different result. He could
not adopt that opinion. In the first place, her Majesty's Go-
vernment had the choice of the agents to whom that superin-
tendence was committed ; but, without pretending to deny
that there might have been faults on the part of the authorities
—a question on which he did not wish to give any opinion
either one way or the other—but without pretending to deny
that such might have been the case, he still was strongly of
opinion that it was impossible for them in the difficult position
in which they were placed to have carried out this system so
as to have led to a satisfactory result, because, if their Lord-
ships would allow him to remind them, the carrying into effect
the system of penal labour had always been found most diffi
cult and unsatisfactory, whether that system had been tried
in the colonies of this country or in America.
Whether it had been tried in this country or in America, it
had always been found that any system of punishment hitherto
adopted had met with very great difficulties and obstructions.
It Lad already appeared that these difficulties and obstructions
had been multiplied tenfold when the system had to be worked
by a delegated authority, removed to as great a distance as Van
Dieman's Land, or Norfolk Island, from this country. And
from those who had the responsibility of carrying into effect.
and ordering the system, and who should look well into the
practical operation. It should be closely watched from day to
day; and whenever abuses seemed to be rising, they should be
instantly checked; and when any errors arose—and errors
were inseparable from a system of the kind—correction should
be instantly made by those in authority. Such an authority
as the Lieutenant-Governor of Van Dieman's Land could not
be sufficient ; for, in the first place, he was bound to consult
his inferior officers, and the Deputy Governor, before he could
make any material alteration of the plans or made any material
change, was bound to wait until he could receive authority
from home to the purpose. In Norfolk Island this was still nearer
the case. The administrator of punishment in Norfolk Island
was the delegate of a delegate. The Governor of Van Die-
man's Land was the authority to whom he immediately looked,
and over him was her Majesty's Government at home. The
communication between Van Dieman's Lard and Norfolk
Island was very irregular and slow, and it was kept up by
sailing vessel?, so that the opportunities of communication were
very rare, and in Norfolk Island, there being no free inhabi-
tants, so that if any of the officers there found anything going
wrong, there was no means of obtaining any Improvement ex-
cept by the slow process of appealing to the separate authori-
ties at Van Dieman's Land or here. Again, one of the great dif-
ficulties was the difficulty
ficulties of any good system of
of finding proper agents to carry on the executive part. When
he spoke of proper agents, be meant more especially the subor-
dinate agents. 11Iost of their Lordships had had more or less
knowledge of the means by which prisons were conducted in
this country, and they all knew that the efficiency of a prison
discipline depended almost as much upon the inferior officers
as upon the governors. If they had not trustworthy officers it
was impossible for the best governors to carry on a good sys-
tem of discipline. In Van Dieman's Land there was great
difficulty in obtaining trustworthy officers ,• and that diffi-
culty was infinitely greater than over here. In IS orfolk Island
it was greater still. In the first place, it was impossible, be-
cause the gale of remuneration was much higher there than
it was in this country, and the salary which in this country
would secure the services of a first-rate person in his rank of
life would, in the colonies, be wholly insufficient. Their
Lordships were aware that even the lowest artificers received
very high wages in the colonies, and many of those persons
who had been sent out by the Government as officers over the
convicts had been tempted out cf the service by the superior
offers made to them by merchants to go to them in the capacity
of clerks. Even supposing that the Government were to go
to a Neater expense than it did at present, it would then find
sitarist the impossibility of obtaining proper agents for their
purpose. But now that in smaller colonies, like Van Dieman's
La id, where he was afraid party spirit and party division ran
operateoreninfitZ
very high, it was extremely d.tfit•ul., to get overseers who
notethe
not generally implicated in these local dis-
putes,enced by wiser considerations which naturally
seers who humane
pmoiwn.edr.
toArtemthoeve saanrnye
otfimtheesteheover
go-
vernor had
reversed by the Secretary might be •
and his act was always liable to be
could
only
suspend
hi ineffictent, as existed at home. He
induce him to proceed"cnyal ofState ; which would naturally
power onf a very clear case; thus de-
unmediately suspending an
priving him of the
inefficacious functionary. Besides, if an Overseer died, it was

Sti.t, LONDON,

very difficult to replace hint. Moreover, when they came to
look at Norfolk Island, they found that they had a very
-rious difficulty to encounter, for few men, such as they
would wish to employ, would like to live there. Exc:uded
from civilised society, wi!hout any one with whom to associate
hut those who were employed in the same capacity as them-
selves or the criminals 'hey were to gnat d,—he believed that it
was quite impossibic for men so situated, not to be deteriorated
in character. It was impossible that their moral qualities
should not suffer from the atmosphere in which they were
placed. He believed that the reason of government, in this

particular, being more easy at home was, that they could em-
ploy men as overseers, who were not excluded from all social
intercourse, or compelled to associate only with those who
were employed in a similar capacity, or those over whom they
were placed. This was the reason of the inefficiency in the
government of convicts at home. It was this consideration
that led her Majesty's Government to the conclusion that
punishment at home could be effected more safely at a cheaper
cost, and more efficiently, at home than in a distant colony.
From a system of punishment properly conducted at home
they would derive this advantage, that they would have the
power of immediately checking abuse, the power of instantly
ejecting officers that proved inefficient, the power of correcting
any errors that might be made in the general regulations—all
those advantages which were altogether wanting to the colonies
would be enjoyed to the fullest extent, by carrying out a sys-
tem of punishment at home. Such then, was the determina-
th nof the Government. It was proposed still to look to penal
labour and imprisonment as the elements of punishment. It
was proposed to consider whatever would tend to the ref ,rma-
tion of the offender; and therefore it was de ermined that
every criminal sentenced to transportation should undergo a
period longer or shorter, as the crime might be, of what had
been called separate imprisonment—that no criminal
sentenced to transportation should escape what was called se-

parate confinement. Their experience for the last three or
four years had satisfied them of the good effect likely to be
produced by this system. It was most efficient in those who
seemed least capable of impression, and beneficial
on those most capable of reformation—( Hear)—but he
thought that that was a mode of punishment which ought to
be carried out with great caution.—(llear hear.) It could

not be carried out to a very great extent, and he thought the
Noble Duke, from his observation, as a Commissioner of
Pentonville, would concur with him that it could not be car-

ried beyond a very short period. It had been proposed, there-
fore, that every offender should undergo a period of separate
confinement, not longer than eighteen months. That was the
longest term for an offence of the gravest character.
Lord BROUHAM.—Eighteen months continuously?
Earl GREY.—Yes, continuously. The medical officers
of Pentonville had watched narrowly the effect of the punish-
ment of separate confinement, and they reported that eighteen
months was safe. Mr. Brodie and Dr. Ferguson had re-
ported that separate confinement could not be continued be-
yond eighteen months ; it was safe within that time, and
that with due care over the condition of the patient, as the
period advanced, it might be inflicted with safety. It was
clear, however, that if separate confinement should be adopted
that alone would fall short of the object, in the case of
an offender guilty of a grave offence. Let them take, for
instance, a case of aggravated manslaughter, where the jury has
hesitated whether they ought to convict the man of murder or
of manslaughter, and when the man was sentenced to trans-
portation for life, it'was clear in that case that eighteen months
separate confinement would be very inadequate. It was pro-
posed, therefore, under separate confinement that every of-
fender should undergo a further punishment by labour on the
public works. He was aware that mode of punishment was
liable to great objections. Formerly it was carried on in the
hulks, and it laboured under great objections, and these. too,
very just. But he could not help thinking that these objections
append rather to the manner than the nature of that punish.
ment.—( Hear, hear.) lie did not believe that penal labour,
when the offenders were allowed to associate together, had a
tendency eo raise any such objection as had been taken. The
objection to the system formerly adopted was, that coercion by
the lash was the only thing which the prisoners in the hulks
h d to fear, and the superintendence on board those ships was
most inadequate from the want of a sufficient number of offi-
cers. The whole system, in short, required very great im-
urovement ; but of late years many improvements had been
effected, and they would be carried much turther. Now they
proposed that convicts should be employed on the public works
under a system by which he hoped the evils which generally
arose by the associating together of large bodies of convicts
would be, to a very great extent, remedied. In the first
place, it would certainly contribute to this end that each con-
vict would undergo a preliminary and sepal ate period of con-
finement, and except upon the most hardened. that period of
confinement would make an impression upon their minds which
would greatly facilitate the maintenance of a proper system
of discipline after their liberation, and employment upon
the public works ; but if a convict rniscunducted himself on the
public works he would render himself liable to be sent back
to undergo a further period of punishment by imprisonment.
But what he looked a., as a matter of extreme impel- once, was
the system under which the public works were to be carried on.
Their Lordships were, no doubt, aware of the plan proposed
with this view by Captain Maconochie, but the trial which was
made of it under his own superintendence was very far from
successful ; it was right to state that he attributed its failure to
the difficulties which he had to encounter, and which, he said,
would not occur for the future; but looking at the experiment
which had been made, and relying upon the judgment of those
who had had much experience in the subject of criminal dis-
cipline, he ( Earl Grey) could not help stating that he was im-
pressed with the conviction that the plan of Captain ,laconochie,
as proposed by himself. could not be practically carried into
effect. Sill he thought there was much in his suggestions
which was valuable, and that his fundamental plan was
good. It was this, that convicts should be employed on
public works, or to be subject to a system by which they
should have a great and direct interest in their
own good conduct and industry, net only in the
abridgment of the period of their sentence, hut in the enjoy-
ment of certain immediate advantages. lie ( Earl Grey) was
convinced that this was an essentially sound and good plan, but
it was one which had been already tried, as et Bermuda and
Gibraltar the convicts had a direct interest in the labour which
they performed, and was found to be of the greatest possible
value, as it not only paid the expense of their maintenance and
superintendence, but left a considerable annual surplus besides.
In Gibraltar the gain of a convict for four years was some•
where about 421., or about M. a }ear, and this was effected
with the best results to the colony. Where the value of the
work was small, as in Van Dieman's Land, they
were naturally led to the conclusion that the system was lax ;
but where, as in the case of Gibraltar, they find the labour of
the convicts producing this result, they might naturally con-
clude that the system in force was a good one. Hitherto the
means of release had been dependent upon a convict's good con-
duct, as a person who behaved himself well whilst on board the
hulks, stood a chance of being recommended to have his liberty
guaranteed to him. No doubt labour upon the public works in
the way he had pointed out, would be found most valuable as
a punishment. With respect to the period for which a person
was to be employed on the public works, it was intended
that every man who really conducted himself well, who
was industrious, and who did not do anything which would
subject hint to fresh punishment, shall be able to obtain his
liberty at the expiration of about one-half the period of his
sentence. This rule had been acted upon in the Hulks, and
transportation for life was commuted into twenty-one years'
banishment; or that if he conducted himself well who was
transported for seven years, might obtain his discharge after
three and a half or four years' banishment. In continuing
this system they intended to retain what he thought was the
real advantage in the former system of transportation, for it
was not without compensating advantages. In this country a
man who had his character blasted by undergoing punishment,
found at the expiration of his sentence, however good his in-
tentions, however strong his tiesire to give up his criminal ha-
bits, and to return to a life of honest industry, that there were
yet difficulties in the way of his accomplishing his purp.se—
( Hear, hear)--a3 almost every description of employ-
ment was closed against him, and wherever he went
to seek employment, he found others selected instead of him ;
and therefore, however strong this good intention might be,
he was frequently driven by absolute distress again into the
commission of crime.—( Hear, hear.) The case was different
in the colonies, as there was a great demand for labour. In
New South Wales many convicts who had obtained tickets of
leave had amassed large fortunes—in fact, in many in-
stances this had been carried to an extent which was in-
jurious ; therefore they proposed, that during the latter period
of his employment, he should be allowed wages nearly the
full value of his labour, but that it should be retained, with
the exception of a srlesll portion to encourage him in his pre-
sent efforts, until the expiration of his sentence, in order that
he might have the means of emigrating; and, following up,
as far as possible, the system in force in the colonies, it was
proposed that those who had secured the means of
paying their way to the colonies, and who had conducted them-
selves well, should receive a conditional pardon, the condition
being that they should not remain in England. The plan was
in force in Van Dieman's Land, and was this— that a convict,
when he received a conditional pardon, might go where he
liked, but that he must not return to England until his term
had expired. Generally they had no wish to do so, as they
found it would be more advantageous to them to stop in the
colony. He was encouraged to hope that this system would be
attended with the best results. judging from the condition of the
exiles who had been sent to Port Philip from Pentonville Pri-
son. Those who had gone to Van Dieman's Land had not suc-
ceeded so well, on account of the state of the colony, and from
the difficulty of obtaining employment, owing to the immense
number of convicts who had congregated there ; in fact, they
had increased to such an extent, as to render it necessaey
for the •Government to maintain them, and the last
return showed that there were no less than 3.030 awaiting
hiring in probation gangs. It was not, however, proposed
that themen should go out without their families. It was true
that to those who left Pentonville this was riot allowed, as

they had undergone but a short period of imprisonment; but
when, after a long imprisonment, they were sent abroad,
and could by their earnings, take their families with them,
they would be allowed to do so; and to this he (Earl Grey)
attached the utmost importance, as this would, in a great
measure, do away with the disparity in the sexes which
existed in many of • our colonies ; and if the Go•
vernment did not allow it, they stood without ex-
cuse. The thought, also, that the sojourn in this country
would give time for teaching those who were ignorant to read
and write and to acquire some trade which might be useful to
them in the colony, so that they would have a class of persons
going to their colonies who would be found of great advantage.
He hoped also that they would be sent out in such a way in
which they would not be recognised as criminals on their ar-
rival at their destination. They would go as paid passengers
on board the ordinary emigrant ships amongst other emigrants,
so that they would not be recognised from those on their ar-
rival, or if they were, they would soon overcome any prejudice
which might be created against them. It was right to state,
that at a meeting recently held at Port Philip, it was urged
that advantage would accrue by sending more exiles to that
part of New South Wales. Where parties would become
responsible for the future condict of the convicts, they
would be liberated on leaving the public works, instead of
being sent out of the colony, as this plan of emi-
gration did not partake of a penal character. The next
point was when the proposed alterations would be carried into
effect. From information he had received, he found that in
the course of the present year, it was calculated that means
were already available for the separate confinement of the
prisoners. In addition to the accommodation which the Pen-
tonville, Parkhurst, and 111illbank prisons would afford, the
prisons in the various counties would, when not fully tenanted,
be available for this purpose, as the support of the prisoners
now paid by the State, and not out of the county rates.
But this duration only applied to Great Britain as in Ireland,
he was sorry to say there was not the required accommodation
for the separate confinement of the convict, but no time would
be lost in providing the necessary receptacles. Prisons, on the
plan of the Pentonville prison, were prepared. With regard
to the reception of the convicts, after the completion of their
confinement, he might state that it would be necessary to use
the hulks as at pre,ent, but nothing would be left undone
to improve them. A great deal had been recently done
in the appointment of additional officers, and in the promotion
of a better discipline than heretofore; yet he admitted after
all that the hulks were most imperfect prisons, and that re-
ceptacles on shore should be provided in lieu of them. Wooden
buildings were in the course of being erected, so that they
'right lie removed from place to place as the positi..n of the
public works required.
The Duke of WELLINGTON—Why not of iron ?
Earl GREY—The Noble Duke inquired why they were not
to be constructed of iron. He would inform him that wood, in
the opinion of engineers, would be both cheaper and more ad-
vantageous. The convicts could be employed in quarrying
stones and in labouring at harbours of refuge, which
the Noble Duke was JO anxious to see carried out.

LI i3l' A
lz
Y %1 i
.... .
Such were the measures which the Government proposed with f lia Iler occurred under it. The other parts of the statement.
regard to the male convicts. It was necessary that they should . is .ade by the Noble Lord were very satisfactory, particularly
observe that he had confined himself in all the observations to l s ,at relaCog to the improvement of prisons and tei,on disci-
adult male convicts. With respect to the female convicts, it One. The improvement of prison discipline would cause eon-
was intended, for the Kt sent, that they should continue to be sidereble expense; but the more they examined the subject
sent to Van Dieman's Land. Considerable pains had been tae more they would be of opmii,n that very considerable and,
taken in improving and e,tat lishing, for the reception of female .
he might say, lavish expenditure of the public money wouki
convicts. proper places in Van Dieman's Land. There was ibe required, and better it could not be expended than fur the
not much difficulty experienced in disposing of them, and, purpose of providing fit gaols. One of the causes of the want
therefore, at present, it was proposed to continue, sending them of good prison discipline was the want of good prisons; and
there. With respect to the clan of juvenile °g . enders, some he hoped much time would not elapse before he would
considerable modification of the system he had endeavoured to sage a considerable addition to the number of gaols—
describe to their Lordships, would be necessary. On that jea ch gaol accompanied by the means of proper and
subject it was inexpedient that they shoula then enter. It efficient industrial employment, either in the gar-
would be necessary that their Lordships' attention should be den or field, prison discipline could only be
called to it at a very early period, and therefore, for the present., perfected, and the reformatory process could only be completed
they might dispense with all reference to that head. Wi.at hi' by such a plan. If they talked of expense it was a monstrous
had stated applied is the prison discipline which it was pro- absurdity, and grossly inconsistent, for they were daily expend-
posed to adopt with respect to the male adult convicts. Such ing thousands, and he might say hundreds of thousands on mat-
were the measures upon which her Majesty's Government hail tern of less importance than the one under consideration. They
come to a general change of policy; lie had endeavoured to were about: to abolish tranportation generally, even if
describe it as it would be adopted. He had no further ob- they retained it in the few instances in which he thought
nervations to make, and in conclusion, he would beg their it ought to 1w retained, and the abolition of it up .n the
Lordships to assent to the second reading of the Bill before large scale up en which it had hitherto been conducted,
them. would place as' their disposal 600,000/. per annum—for
Lord BROUGHAM sail that nothing could be more sal is- the present cost of their penal colonies was actually
factory to him than to express his entire approval, and, indeed, sieo,(X)o/. If :they abolished transportation upon the
lie might say, his admiration of the clear, distinct, and candid larger scale, and retained it spun the smaller scale, as
statement made by his Noble Friend who had just sat &tan. applied to individtrals as seltioni as possible, they would
tie would not then enter upon the large subject opened to the retain a large reverrue, out of which they could witheut the
attention of their Lordships, further than simply to state that leaat difficulty constetuct gaols; and even penal farms and
some doubt remained upon his mind with reseect to the main gardens, with less expense, than they at present calculated
object of the. Noble Earl's remarks—the total abolition of uiem, lie was very glad to hear the Noble Earl's accounts
transportation- lie came entirely to the same result from an from Gibraltar,—indt ied, it exceeded his best expectations,—
examination, not only of the evidence, respecting the subject f.r he had no idea that anything so good had been effected.
this Bill referred to, but from a long course of observation arid The Ns ble Earl state d that between 101. and 12'. was the
experience in the public service in that respect, and from exa- annual gin up, n the work of one convict at Gibraltar, above
missing with great attention all the high authorities upon that the expense and cost of his maintenance and clothes ; the ex-
important branch of criminal jurisprudence. Ile had come to panic of his carriage there being alone excepted. That re-
the same conclusion, generally speaking, regarding that branch pert was very gratifying.
of penal itithetion, that punishment by transportation ought to Earl GREY—That aloes not include the expense of his
cease. Some doubts rested on his mind, which he had some transportation and vans) es other charges.
unwillingness to mention, on this subjec•, the much-to-be- Lord BROUGHAM- —lt included his maintenance, clothing,
lamented fattier of the Noble Earl, who brought forward this and lodging ; and above that was earned the sum of 42/. in
susiect, having been addressed by Archbishop Whateley, in an four years, from the actual profit of his labour. It was a most
able pamphlet, entitled " A Latter to Earl Grey upon the sub- satisfactory result, anti he gave his best wishes to the system
ject of Transportation," and published in 183:). which inculcated such industrious habits upon the part of the
He (Lord Brougham) agreed with the opinion ex- prisoners. He had devoted a great portion of his time to this
presses! by the Archbishop, with one exception, subject, and he had thought it proper to trouble the House
namely, he was unwilling to give up transportation absolutely with these remarks, and, in conclusion, he begged to express
t • - all He had • • •- • •- - __...
- ' ' No'

and entirely in . cases. great doubts if it would be
safe in certain cases—these cases being the exception, and by
no means the rule—that in certain cases of peculiar description
that punishment might advantageously be retained. The great
objection to trap-portatien—politically and economically—was
not the objection to which reference had been made. He could
state that in the penal colonies it was not difficult to find a
place in which the sentence might be safely executed. The
great objection was the nature and the incurable inequality of
the punishment. To one person it was a very grave punish-
ment—the greatest punishment, perhaps, next to death. To
other persons it wore a very different aspect—the aspect only
of terror, dislike, and aversion—and, to a third class, it was
really little or no punishment at all. The great
object ion to transportation as a suit able punishment
was, that it could not lie inflicted in the nature of a
punishment. It was never to be lost sight of, however,
inasmuch as they still considered it as a punishment, and ii
might have some effect in deterring by example. The aspect
of a punishment was various to various individuals, and it
might be used for the purpose of deterring some from crime
—as the aspect made so great a difference in its nature.
as 'o alter it entirely. They were about to abandon transpor-
tation absolutely area altogether, but he was quite certain that
they ought not rashly to give up any means of punishment,
provided even in a few cases it was likely to produce effect as an
example. Capital punishment they ail knew and thought
ought to be very sparingly inflicted, and some thought that it
ought to be abolished altogether. He differed from those per
ons who held the last opinion, and agreed with those who
thought it nught to be sparingly inflicted. Nevertheless he
could not give up capital punishment as a means of deterring
others, because there might be only three or four periods of the
year in which they could find a proper subject to whom the
capital infliction ought to be applied. lie would not give up
any punishment, although only applicable to a few instances,
proviited it produced a beneficial effect ; and fur that reason he
was, upon the whole, doubtful whether they ought to
abandon transportation—not as a punishment to be carried
out upon every offender, but yet it might be pos-
sible to make it of use in certain cases, although
in a very limited number of instances. Ile thought
that the objection of the Noble Earl that the punishment was
one of great inequality in its operation, was well founded, but
the few cases to which he alluded, that objection would not
apply. He should not, upon the whole, thin` it safe to confine
it to persons of an inferior rank of life, but rather to those of a
superior class. He had reason to think that to persons of that
description, it must be the most awful punishment that could be
inflicted next to death. It might have afforded a strong
example in the case of a malefactor who perished some years
ago tor forgery ; that would have been a proper case for the in-
fliction of transportation. A great malefactor had not very
long since been punished by his Noble Friend opposite (Lord
Derimaii), and to persons of that description and class such a
sentence was next to death. It was the greatest which coula
be inflicted upon persons such as the recivere of stolen goods,
who carried on their detestable trade—a trade about which the
law, and the administrators of the law, were universally and
perpetually in conflict. 'The traffic carried on by these persons
was driven with a certain capital--in fact, they were persons of
no little resources in point of money—they were persons who,
out, ardly to the eyes of the world, had a certain standing and
appearance of respectability in society. To such persons it
would almost. be as hail as to any person in the highest rank of
life to have denounced against them the sentence of trans-
portation for f iurieen years, or for life, for their offent es.
These offences were the very " pabulum"—the root—the
source from wh nee the varicus depredations committed by
thieves—thieves of all ages and descriptions—sprung. His
Noble Friend, who was in the s line profession as kimself, must
remember well many cases painful to contemplate, in which lie
had seen bankruptcies, and absolute insolvency and
ruin of the respectable trader, from the lacilit ies
disposal which these receivers possess without any doubt, and
enabled the servants and apprentices to commit depredations
from week to week upon their employers. Ile could not help
feeling that for some such culprits as these, to whom that
punishment was a terror, he should be somewhat reluctant to
accede to the abandonment of the punishment of trim:Torte
tion. Ile had another observation to make with regard to the
Noble Earl's statement, for it contained one point with w hi. Is
he did not agree, and that was with respect to deportation
He d.d not attempt to oppose it, but he would throw out
rather a suggestion for consideration. The first observation of
the Noble Earl on the subject had left him rather in doubt and
difficulty as to the manner of inflicting the sentence of depor-
tation. It appeared that a person, after he had gone over his
term of penal labour, and might be supposed to be nearly, if
not quite, reformed, was to be sent to Australia in an emigrant
ship. They were told that he was not sent out as a pueish-
ment, but in order to remove him from the society he had dis-
graced. If the convict were to be allowed to go voluntarily,
then he might
go whither he would, but if not lie could under-
stand that the removal was only to be a part of the
punishment to be inflicted, arid that the convict was only
liberated from labour. If the convict were to be told that
the moment he got out of his term of his penal labour he must
eo whether he will or not—he himself could regard it in no
other light ; although the language used might riot be that of
command, arid although the convict might be told that it was
all for his own good, the fact was the same, and he had no
doubt that very juvenile offenders would have the acuteness to
make answer, " 'rhea I wish you would employ it upon your-
self, and not upon me." If they were expected to go as emi-
grants in an emigrant ship, his Noble Friend would find that
they would, probably from their station and manners, be dis-
covered to have been convicts, and they would no: be very lung
on board bef ire a line would be drawn across the deck—one
side of the ship being found for emigrants', and the other for
emigrant convicts. With regard to the system of exile there
coved be no doubt about it. He could not conceive it possible
that its the year 18-17 they were about to revive and restore
ilia t old abandoned, that entirely abandened, pueishment of
the Scotch law—banishment forth of Scotland, with re.
spect to which Sir George Mackenzie had written
nearly one hundred and twenty years ago;—lt was clearing
out their malefactors to send them to their neighbours; but
tiro could
play at that game—(A laugli)--and their neieh-
baurs could send over their convicts to this country. Mr.
Alison had also written, about a year ago, upon this ex-
ploded punishment, which was repealed in the reign of George
h
the Fourth, and which ail long been recorded as a law of
barbarism, and only fit for the infant stages of society.
sCer-
tainly they could not avoid calling the plan the puni hment of
exile, because they merely said that it was for the good of the
person, whom they did net even allow to choose his place of
resident As soon as the penal sentence was over—as soon
e.
as the labour was over—the remaining part of the sentence was
to be that he should go abroad. They state it to be no part
of the sentence. and yet it was compulsory upon the criminal,
why was to be compelled to go, and to be told that it was only
to prevent him from offinling
_again. According to that they
might say that the infliction of death might be no part of a
punishment, because it would effectually prevent the prisoner
from offending
agaire—(A laugh.) They might say to a cri-
minal in his last moments—" It is not a punishment, we are
only
limb (Laughter)—" going to remove you "—as the surgeon said with regard
to a
We are only going to remove your
head ; it is no punishment. Nk e are only going to remove you
from society, that you are not likely to err again. It is true
we remove you by iiiflicting a wound, which you are not likely
easily to get over, but we hinder you from again offending."—
(Laughter. ) The same observation would appiy to the sys-
tem of compulsory exile. If they wet e to go away only by
the aid of the Government, they would, in all probability, go
to the nearest place, which was Calais, and thin they would
perhaps return. And how were they to prevent that? A Liverpool
man might go up to London, and a London man to Liverpool
What would the Custom-house say when they heard the an-
swer to the question of " What cargo have you brought—wheat,
sugar, or cotton ?" The reply would he—" No, no, we have
a cargo of convicts."--( Laughter.) They would be asked—
" What kind of goods are those " And the persons on board
would in the bsst French they could muster say, " They were
highway robbers, forgers, and perjured persons—people who
have broken all the statutes of the law, but they were all re-
formed.—(Laughter.) He suspected that these kinds of car-
goes would meet with a pretty high prohibitory duty in France.
They would be apt to say that they could not allow them to
come there, and it they were to send them their convicts the
French people would adopt the principle of reciprocity and
would send over all their convicts to this country—( Laughter)
—and that proceeding he did not think likely to increase the
benefit of the entente cordiale.—(Loud laughter.) Consider-
ing these difficulties he did feel a little astonished at the at-
tempted introduction of an ancient and exploded law. There
was, however, one further consideration, namely, that this
plan could never be adopted or adhered to, He assured them
that it never could be. He did not think that anything so
preposterous would ever be adhered to, as a plan for turning
upon the French shores all our convicts, after a certain
period of labour. In introducing a cargo of such people to
any place, what conversation would take place—for instance,
with the Mayor of Calais they would hale to admit what they
were. They would have to say, " These people have corn.
mitted various crimes, but they ;re at present nearly or quite
reformed, and we have just brought them over." The
chaplain of the penitentiary would say, "Oh ! they
are reformed—they are very excellent people, they
are very worthy and good people, they have
committed robberies and forgeries, but they are
in process of reformation." The Mayor of Calais would ne-
cessarily say, "We have here plenty of excellent people
amongst ourselves ; pray keep them, for we do not want them ;
we have plenty of tee best people of Europe in every rank of
crime and degree of refermation. We do not want any impor-
tation of worthy and good persons upon our side of the water,
but if you do leave them we shall order—with the view of
keeping up the entente cortlirde— some very good people of ours
to be sent to you." That would be one of the effects of intro..
ducing this obsolete penalty of banishment. There was one
instance of its having been tried of late years, and that was when
one of six Aces was introduced. With the aid of his Noble
Friend opposite, who was then with him in the other House of
Parliament, he had done all he possibly could to prevent it fiom
pa-sing. They- moved heaven and earth to effect their object,
but they were defeated. The principle of that Bill was not so
objectionable as the principle of the present one—it was for the
Purpose of sending away political libellers. The people of
France might nut object to a political libeller, but they
might
object to the carrying over a cargo of ruffians from all parts of
St. Giles's. That Act, however, was never once put in force; '
and not one single instance of the prosecution of a political li-

his acquiescence in the Bill proposed by the St;ble Earl.
Lord STANLEY said that he was quite aware that there
were many Members in their Lordships' House who were more
competent to address themselves to this question than he was,
bet he trusted that, from the position which he had had the
honour of holding, he would be excused if he trespassed for a
short time upon their attention. He was the more anxious to
take this opportunity, because, if he rightly understood his
Noble Friend, this was the last opportunity which was likely
to be affording their Lordships of expressing their opinions
upon the subject. This Bill proposed to substitute a better
system of secondary punishment fur that which had hitherto
existed ; but he could not help thinking that her Majesty's
Government, in their efforts to limit the extent of the
evil, had too readily adopted a new principle, and too hastily
departed from a system which appeared to hint (Lord Stanley)
most valuable, however subject it might have been to abuses.
He had, at the same time, to express his regret, if he had
correctly interpreted the announcement of the Government, that
t his was the last opportunity in which Parliament could interfere,
because, although it was perfectly true that it was competent
for the Governor in authority at the colonies to mitigate the
punishment, although competent for the judges in this country
to pass sentence of imprisonment in lieu of transportation,
and therefore so far to effect an alteration in the penal system,
still, it did appear to hen that to introduce these great—these
very extensive—these important, and in his opinion mast
doubtful measures, there should have been something inure than
a mere announcement of the intentions of the Government, there
ought to have been a something more than a trilling discussion
in this or both Houses of Parliament. Such a measure as this
should not be carried without the sanction of an Act of Parlia-
ment defining in the clearest manner who were to be the
subjects affected by the measure, and the extent
of punishment to be affixed to each degree of crime.
lie was afraid that too much haste was not only observable on
this but on all former occasions on which this important ques-
tion had been considered, anti he could not help entertaining
the greatest deubt of the prudence of abrogating altogether the
punishment of transportation. Ile believed that it was min-
ced.- d by almost ail who had taken the trouble of considering
this subject, that transportation, as a secondary punishment,
impressed the criminal with more terror than any other mode
ur degree of punishment. He believed that many of the most
hardened culprits who would hear with perfect indifference a sen-
tence of 13 months' imprisonment, to be afterwards commuted
to labour in public works, would look with very different feel-
ings on a sentence of transportation for a period of 21 or 14, or
even 10 years. Ile believed that however faulty in
practice the system at present in existence was, it
capable of being worked advantageously for the pur-
poses of reformation as well as of punishment. The
Noble Lord opposite had correctly stated that in this punish-
ment much deeendsd on the charac es of the convict himself, and
much on the temper of the master to whom he might have
been assigned, and whits to some this would be hardly any
punishment at al', to others it would be a severe one. His
( Lord Stanley's) conviction was, that if after a period of
punishment by labour in the colonies,' here had been the means
of distributing among the scattered population of so large a
continent as that of New South Wales, these labourers—if
facileies had been given for allotting them to free emigrants—
men possessed of property—if there had been proper facilities
ztven for distributing the convict population, after
they had undergone the severe ordeal of punishment which
Government had commanded—if such facilities had been
given, he believed that great good might have been accom-
plished, and that many and singular advantages would accrue
to the character, the dispositions, and the welfare of the indi-
viduals who had beers subjected to that punishment. He re-
gretted to think, that net only were hasty steps taken by the
Committee which sat in 1827, but that still more hasty steps
were taken in 1840, when her Majesty's Government, without
any previous preparation, at once announced that transportation
to New South Wa'es was immediately to cease. Ile thought
they had then sacrificed a great advantage when they threw
up as a tres.al settlement a colony large as the continent tit
teurope,--a colony to which they might have transported a
great mass of crime, which it was of the first importance
should be sent from their shores. Even his Noble Friend, in
the plan which he that evening submitted t.i their Lordships,
admitted the necessity of removing this mass of evil from
their country. Ile (Lord Stanley) slid not mean to deny
Gat great and serious inconveniences had arisen to the
colony of Van Dieman's Lind, from the extent to which
transportation had been carried, in consequence of the declara-
tion of Government that New South Wales should no longer
be a penal settlement, and that Van Dieman's Land
should he the only and single point to which that tide
of vice and depravity should flow in future. But this
inconvenience was immediately aggravated by the unfortu-
nate coincidences of the period in which the operation
of the new system was first commenced. At the period when
the new system was first introduced, there was every reason
to believe that as the convicts came out from the first step of
punishment, namely, from the probation gang, they would be
absorbed in the population, and proper and honest labour pro-
cured for them, it was unfortunate that coincident with that
period, trade should be in a most depressed condition, that a
sudden eclipse of that prosperity which had been blown up to
an artificial and premature extent should supervene, and that
those classes who were the employers of labour, were in a con-
dition to do so no longer. Nothing could have happened more
unfortunately for the Government than that the new system
was in•roduced at this period, yet he (Lord Stanley) was satis-
fied of this, that to a great extent notwithstanding all those
disadvantageous circumstances, the system adopted with trans-
eorted convicts had acted beneficially in the case of a great
proportion of those persons who had been subjected to this
punishment. He did not mean for a moment to say, that in
the papers before the House, there sr. re not instances of
horror (which he was glad to find his Noble Friend had not
disgusted their Lordships withl—but those horrors were in the
probation gangs, confined to two or three localities.
Earl GREY—No, no.
Lc rd STANLEY—It was so, and he affirmed it after a
careful examination of the papers. These acts of horror were
occasioned by the absence of proper superintendence and
watchfulness, and they might by proper superintendence have
been in every instance checked. All precautions having been
inconceivably neglected, it could net be deemed matter of
astonishment, or even of wonder, that such consequences
should have ensued. But let them look to the especial docu-
ments which treated of the character anti conduct and disposi-
tion of the convict population of Van Dieman's Land. He
asked them not to take the authority of the Governor nor of
the comptreller, nor to take the authority of those official
reports which one and all announced a great improvement in
the character and conduct of the convict population. But he
would ask their Lordships to look at a letter which would be
found in those very papers, and which gave the
impressions of the writer with regard to the
general conduct of the convicts in the year 1845,
and again, in 184;;, and Mr. Fry, their Lordships would re-
member, was no advocate for the continuance of transporta-
tion, especially for miner offence!. His letter would he found
in pages 190 arid 191 of the book before their Lordships, and
the statements con'ained in it were such as ought not to be
overlooked. The Noble Lord then proceeded to read an ex
tract from the Rev. Mr. Fry's letter, which had appeared in a
colonial paper, to show the great improvement which had taken
place in the moral character of the convict population. The
writer said that the sea-ports of England presented more im-
moral aspects than the towns of the colonic s—that the ministers
of religion who had been provided by the Government in 1842,
I bored in extensive congregations, every Protestant family
having their Bibles, and both Protestants and Roman Catholics
deli kiting in their r ligiou, o'.servances. The tendency of the
whole article was to prove that society in the penal colonies had
greatly improved, and were in course of even greater improve-
ment. Now, this was the article which appeared in one of the
colonial papers, anti the same facts were confirmed by another
article, dated in August, 1846, exactly a twelvemonth after the
publication of his first letter. He went on, at a later period,
to state that he had married upwards of a hundred discharged
convicts in the last year, who were living as happy as any la-
bourers in England. The writer also referred to the working of
c• nditional pardons under the olsi system. With reference to
the intentions of her Majesty's Government as regarded
conditional pardons, the Government desired to give the go-
vernor power to grant conditional pardons which should extend
over the whole of the penal colonies, so that an emancipated
convict might have the option of a widely evtendeti country to
settle in. With regard to the punishment, his Noble Friend
and himself appeared to agree on the principle; in fact, he
theught there was no difference in this respect between them.
His Noble Friend admitted, in his place, that the same prin-
ciple of punishment should be carried out as that which at
present prevailed in the colonies, namely, the inflicting a
severer degree of punishment in the advanced stages, anti in
every successive stage giving greater or less restraint, until by
perseverance and good conduct the convict should emerge
among the free and uncontaminated population ; therefore, as
far as the principle was concerned, there was no dif.
Terence between them, and he believed that there would be
none with any other of their Lordships. The question, then, the
great question for them was, what kind or degree of punish-
ment would be the best calculated to prevent crime in the first
instance, and restore in the sec and place the convict to a useful
position in society ? He was afraid that in the vast scale of
offences which were now punishable with transportation, the
distinction would be neglected which existed between the
highest and lowest grades of punishment. The offender in the
first instance, would think it a matter of no great importance
whether the minimum sentence of six months, or the maxi-
mum sea tence of eighteen months were passed. That differ-
ence would not strike the mind so forcibly as the difference
between six months imprisonment and transportation for life.
The fear of transportation was new very strong, even with the
most hardened culprit, and he doubled that if they substituted
imprisonment for some months to be followed by emigration,
with their wives and children, the punishment would not
only cease to be a matter of dread, but actually consti-
tute something to look forward to, and hope for.
He admitted without hesitation, that the question of expense
was in this care a misor and subordinate matter ; and what-
ever might be the expense of carrying out this plan, it it were
calculated to diminish crime, the country he was sure would
not object to a slight additional expenditure of one, two, or
three hundred thousand pounds. But Government would be
subjected to great difficulty in the first apelication of their
plan. That wouid necessarily be the effect of abandoning the
sentence of transportation. He believed the male portion of
ho population now sentenced to transportation amounted an.