The Sun.
London, England, 1840-01-29 00:00:00

EV EN :NG EUir lON%

ir, anied by the Americus Commodore they word given up. neral election by candidates opposed to the Government,l
He did tint for a moment wish the Government to break who made that the medium by which they solicited votes,
those friendly relations 16101 otisted between them and and excited the popular feeling against the Government?
the French Government, but he Wanted that when outrage —(Cheers.) Let me ask him, if he does not believe that
wits eommitted they would in a bold and fines nienster dc- the feeling which engendered Chartism had its origin in
mann reparation and obtain justice. In what cast! had , opposition to the Poor-laws? Had there not been an
justice been done._ Certainly, not in the case of the seizure 41/lance—l would say an "unhallowed alliance"—between
of 13ritish ships in 18i4, when under the pretence of a Tories—(call them Conservatives, if you please)—but be-
querrel with a native tribe they seized British property tween Tories, Tory- Destructives, and -Chartists, in order
to the amount of one hundred thousand pounds against to excite the people to violence against that law?—(Loud
all the laws of nations, as admitted by the Noble Lord the cheers.) Nay, is it not a notorious fact that at the last
Secretary fer Foreign Affsirs himself, and every other election which took place within these few days—even
person who had thought on the matter; eet for that tine since the notice of the Hon. Baronet has been on the
lawful seizure what had the merchants received? Mere boa:ea—that at the last election for the great metropolitan
promises—certainly neither redress not reparation Itdd yet borough of Southwark, the great Conservative champion
been afforded them. He would lay this country ought W , invited and received the Aid of the incendiary Oastler?—
demand equity from France as well as shdi% it ; but so long (jeme„„ ee„,.1,70
as this question was delayed so much the more ceinplicated :• Mr. W. DUN C OMBE—I ri.'e to order, Sir—(Cries of
did it become. He had received information recently thee " Oh," end *' Order, order 1") I aek whether the Right
the French were still pursuing the sines course to the ruin Honourable Gentleman is justified in nailing Mr. Oastler
of °tie of the most important trades of this Country—the " that incendiary Oastler ?"—(Great laud hter. )
gull trade. They had put a complete stop to that trade Sir GEORGE GREY—Sir, lat once retiect the word,
on the river Casa Masa, by forcing the ships to depart and leave Mr. Oastler to the protection of his panty.—(Liud
against ask.o nv, ,
i, the,elteill Government
lysteoronatmno ebnceta
litohi
stet
it y theysal t 1
that
tek t
without theit. cargoes. With respect to China, he would and rapturous cheering and laughter.) It has been charged
beg to remind the House that the trade with that countryfomented elan:: di
n!S:lnae.,teitsioo.-,
was most important; and the House would at once per- I
ticAotoorealplaaocceosaintioNtitravile;;to:,s,
ceive that when he stated that the imports of British menu- (if
chargeable)i on the Gove.rnmint'Y'
factures and British colonial produce into that country
amounted annually to seven millions. Why had not aught rather to have been brought against the Government,
I looking at the quarter from which it comes, is, not that an at-
redrees been forced from them for the insults offered to her I tack took place on Newport—for that seems to have been a
Majesty's representative at Canton, and the outrages coin- i godsend to lion. Gentlemen opposite, and it is the only no-
mitted on the British merchants residing there? These 1 velty they have introduced into this debate—but the real accu-
outrages had been committed in the months of March and 1 cation, if they dare to do so, and the soreness which exists 00
April last ; intelligence of them had reached this country 1 this subject, is that while her Majesty in her Speech from the
to
attbow
cerleownwe have carried up
in July and August., and yet no preparation had been made Throne has lamented thelt existencei of these outbreaks
for avenging these insults until just previous to the meet
ing of Parliament in the month of January. It appeared ,ameexoptr eistsaisn goooturhereen-
those circumstances, Parli
Iron the answer of the Noble Lord, the Secretary for linet
mi;insuinrrtooefucisionasd,dtaonsst
probation "onand the Government have not proposed, to increase
Foreign Affairs, in answer to the question proposed by his
athees severity of the penal code. nor have they, as
Hon. Friend, the Member for Oxtbrd, that her Majesty's
:Misters disavowed the conduct of the Superintendent, has been done at former times, when an outbreak has taken
I lace, come down and asked for extraordinary lee sto arm them
which they were bound to
and refused to sanction his proceeding—why was he not ior the suppression of that outbreak.—( Cheers.) No, they
then superseded ?—(Cheers)—why had they net sent out
some other person in whose judgment and discretion they athalinveinrie:tieerd, oantidthie
aeslkiswtinhgethlearwasn, any Hon. Gentlemanb opposite
reposed more conedence._( Cheers.) He hoped the will pretend to say that those laws have not been fain{, justly,
Nable Lord or some other member of her Majesty's strictly, and mercifully administered? C
( .It.v,.a.s)to those. have
Government would explain the reason why this course submitted the question of guilty or notegiuo
t 'a,' to the verdict par-
hadof
not been pursued.--( Loud cheers.) With regard ties who were taken in ()pett insurres
icion
of
bias,
and the
to Canada, thanks to the firmness of Lord Col. .
juries ; raper; ially chosen,i without a
(la hear.) is it for this
borne, the rebellion in that country had been put tweet hastlustifieoetlf t ieir t
Commonse°nuei's. called upon to condemn her
down—but that rebellion never would have broken out that; the Gouosaessmnsar, and to remove them from office? Is
if in 1837 the Government had given proper suppers to it for this that they are to Les told by the Hon. Alderman that
Lord Gosford to put down the democratic assemblages they are slack in the admlnistration of the law?
which were then disturbing the country. But it was in- Alderman THOMPSON—No, ,o.—(Cries of " Order.")
convenient at that time to increase the army because the Sir GEORGE GREY—I understood the Hon. Alder-
country was on the eve of a general election—:n conse- man to say that Government had not been sufficiently energetici,
quence the aid was delayed for another twelvemonth, and in the administration of the law.—( Cries of "Hear, he ar. )
tee safety of those most important colonies wercoput in I will nut say a word on what I consider was i
a. defect in good
jeopardy. With regard to the colony of Jamaica, and this taste.
proceedings of the House relating thereto, the House must Alderman _ . THOMPSON—I beg, Sir, to be allows.l to
lex-
-1 made no observation that the Government was sack
be mindful that a difference arose between her M eesty's Ge- Plain.i administration of the law. What I said was that there
vernor of that Colony and the Legislative Assemblies on the
was al dispo. • • designate thingsb ' their wrong names.--
cition to y
subject of privilege—the Governor by repeated dissolutions (Cries of " Oh, oh.")
of the Assembly had excited feelings of hostility and discon- Sir GEORGE GREY—I was coming to that, that was
tent, which made it necessary to apply to her Majesty's another charge. lam quite aware that one ground on which
Government for protection; and what protection did Go- the Honourable Alderman asked the House of Commons to
vernment propose for her Majesty's subjects ? Why, the withdraw their confidence from her Majesty's Government is
destruction of their Constitution for five years, and the that Lord Normanby did not designate
lthe outrageT that was
substitution of arbitrary power for that Constitution under committed by its proper name.
dletcveonutd
‘a:okoltdheitliolanyoeurbaeen
which the people of Jamaica bad lived happily for a period Gentleman, would it h
ers hate been
a Secretary Of State writing be-
of two hundred years. However, through the persevc- fair toiwardslt
ofe pr
these orties took place, to make use of any
ranee, the foresight, and :the wisdom of the Right Hon.
• fore
eert ticegtmrisathan he did? Is the Honourable Gentleman aware
Baronet, that course was prevented, and the Constitution great of the doubts that were raised upon one case and of the
of Jamaica preserved to its inhabitants, who now enjoyed abilit with which some of the prisoners were defended? And I
perfect tranquillity under Sir Charles Metcalfe, a man of would ask the Hon. Member for Huntingdon, and the Hon.
understanding, experience, and foresight. But what fol- Member for Ipswice, who so ably defended thoee prisoners—d
lowsd the rejection of that measure? Why. the Noble de they concur with the Hon. Gentleman iii saying that Lort
Lord the Secretary of State for the Colonial Department Normanby took a wrong course, in not at once; rocianumg to
came down to the House and announced his resignation the wo.ld that those parties who were atbroeutotre,be(tieLet,,d,hres.)
and that of his colleagues, and the ground for that resig- jury of their countrymen were gnuilc of
toynnectionawilth this subject
nation was, that they had lost the confidence of this House. Bat, Sir, the Hon. Gentlemanmrirt iwho is now convicted by a jury .
has complained that . . .
lie ( Alderman Thompson) asked what circumstances had (''''' of treason, was re-
of his countrymen as having been guppy
occurred which could have induced the House to restoreor rather
commended by my Noble Friend to the allagistracy, l
its confidence ?—( Hear, hear.) That was a question the was appointed by him to that judicial office. Now a great dea
Noble Lord, or some one of his colleagues, must answer
, has been said out of the House upon this subject. I sun not
before the debate ended. Lord Melbourne, in another aware whether my Hen. Friend the Member for Devonshire
place, which according to the rules of the House he must alluded to it—(Cries of " Yes, he did")—but whether he did
nut particularly describe, en the Ist of May last, had said or not, one of the counts of the indictment on which the Hoare
that unquestionably the worst Mini-try was that which of Commons is now called upon to condemn the Government, is
did nut prissess the confidence of Parliament and the that my Noble Friend, three or four years ago, appointed as
sp oebre.
country, and could not carry those measures that were son to the magistracy of the borough oifeeNrewhpeoarr ) I ask whe-
t, who has
necessary for the well-being of the people. He would sequently been guiltyd of tbreastoanke.--n
a(n fa
ins
to
ascertain the
ask the Noble Lord whether he thought he had in a whe-
ther theof Htbone. Antseernia,n,
yaess,,,
fromy Lerman Thonmson. )
sufficient degree the confidence of the House to carry lrets says he has. 'Then I must say he is grievously mistaken.
such measures ? Why, what was the fate of the first mea- What would be the inference deducible from the Hon. Alder-
sure her Majesty's Government had introduced in the pre- mares „see,
p h, but that my Hon. Friend, knowing Mr. Frost
sent Session ?—it was rejected by the House, and to be a traitor, and not fit to be trusted with the magistracy
therefore if Lord Me.bourne were consistent in his of the borough, went out of the way to renninate him to the
opinion, her Majesty's Government must be changed. magistracy, and that he is now to be held up as a traitor ?
He found that in a space of little more than six months. Does not the Hon. Gentleman know the rule laid down with
there had been no fewer than eighteen changes of the regard to all those municipal corporations was boldly statssl in
principal officers of Government—there had been marching in the face of the country, viz. that it was my Noble Frieno's
and ccunter-marching from office to office.—( Hear, hear.) intention to give attention to every recommendetion which
Ile found that the Right Hoe. Member for Edinburgh, might. submitted trom the Town Councils of those
bentboeughc?
h-sd been substituted in her Majesty's Councils, for the tv
opt
administrationtbehenotttien at ntohGeoverntment otit to rusted
Noble Lord the Member for Northumberland. But he ) 'hat was tLoutilm7 to
havewhich adopted
,rotli that
course e—( Cheers.
confessed that that change had not his confidence.—( Loud ward this motion, and not now, when a man by an act cont-
cries of " Hear, hear.) Mr. Burke had said that his misted years after, is convicted of treason.—(Cheers.) But;
standard of a statesman was a disposition to preserve and what are the facts of the case. The Town Council recent-
an ability to improve the institutions of the country. He mended an addition to the Magistracy in the borough. The
believed that there was no disposition on the part of her supplemental list sent up contained the names of Brewer and
Majesty's Government to preserve our present institutions. Frost. Mr. Brewer was a gentleman agreeing in politics
—( Loud cheers from the Opposition benches)—and be with Mr. Jones. Mr. Frost was a Gentleman who, in common
with the Hon. Baronet the Member Pembroke, and the
had no confidence in their ability to improve them. It
, Noble Lord the Member for Lancashireforvery active part
was on these accounts that he gave his support to tne in
the proceedings of the Reform Bill.—(1-;ear, hear, and
motion of the Hon. Baronet. Before he sat down he hoped lawthter.) They both possessed the confidence of their fellow
he would he permitted to express his acknowledgments to , townsmen, and were both recommended. Having r sferre Ito
the House for the forbearance they had shown to him during i the Lord Lieutenant, and ascertained that no sub;tantial
the period he had been offering them these observations. i cbjcetion existed to those individuals, his Noble Freend
That was the first occasion during a Parliamentary life of attended to that recommendation, as in the face of the'
more than twenty years, on which be had appeared as House and the country he stood pledged to do—( Hear,
taking a prominent part on any great political question. be:a)—and for his adherence to that pledge he is now to
He should have shrunk front appearing in that character be condemned, and the coittidence of the House is to be withal:am,
on the present occasion, if he did not feel impelled by a from the Government, simply because Mr. Frost has sine been
sense of duty as an independent Member of the Houee, guiltyiii
has
sore% aandcl,
orutnddisgulisedbotrfel.ostion.HuNowt the ri,eitzet
was
and if he did not feel he was acting in accordance with 'Toltec which, I thought,.e Nt-ooulYd tha - • .-
Jonfe opposite
terms of
the honour and the best interests of the country.—(L d topic
' •
Loud i . t he. oesupie , from the
his motion, a much more prominent part of this debate. It
cheers.)
Sirseems, however, that lion. Gentlemen arc wearied of the dis-
G GREY
G. then rose and said, in rising to oPleose cussiun of Irish olicy and Irish questions.--(Cheers and
a direct negative to the motion which has just been made, laughter.) It was glanced at by the Hon. Baronet, but the
it was his pleasing duty, in the first place, to express his whole of the count as respects Ireland, and, as I understood him,
cordial and heartfelt concurrence in the first sentiment consists in this, that the son of the lion. Member for Dublin
which fell from the Hon. Baronet—a sentiment which would had been appointed to a place, and that the Hon. Member for
meet, he was sure, with the equally cordial concurrence of Dublin himself had dined with the Lott' Lieutenant.---(Great
all his friends around him —namely, laughter.) I confess, I have not put myself to the trouble of
satisfaction tha
at length this course was taken—(Cheers)—that Ile- inquiring who are the ordinary guests, or the extraordinary
nourable Gentlemen opposite had at last abandoned the guests, at the table of the Lord Lieutenant;of but,otm Soisr,i I
etahliliet
policy which they had for the last five years pursusd it is extremelyt ridiculousbntt when tah 11
veoteoawsheich is dsscroibed- by. the
—( Cheers)—that they had substituted for the poor uHpoonn no
Alderman
momentous on the simple ground that
warfare of detail—( Loud cheers)—for the perpetual an Hon. Gentleman, a supporter of her Majesty's Govern-
obatruction of the measures which the Government sub- meet, and an open and undisguised • supporter, the
mitted to Parliament—(Cheers)—with the somewhat vain. Hon. and Learned Member for the City of Dublin, has dined
glorious boast at the close of the Session, of the nullity with the Lord-Lieutenant of that country.—(Loudeheers and
of their deliberations—(Cheers)—he rejoiced that Hon. laughter. Why has this motion not been made ou former oc-
Gentlemen opposite had at last substituted for this course casions, and why has the opinion of the House not been taken
the more manly, the more decided policy of abandoning on this solemn. this important, this monr.ntons question, a
assaults upon individual parts of the Government measure:, where the Hon. Member for Dublin dined ?—( Renewed laugh-
and on individual members of the Government administra- ter..) Atlthough,etthienHsiohnnioGe ellnitalTlnuasizoinmt? havel fodunil itancoont-
tion, and venturing to call up in the British House of vooennisednotrin%
considering this is the Parliament of Greatren Britainc len!
Commons for a direct verdict of condemnation on the Ireland, consent to withdraw it altogether from the considers-
whole policy of the Government—legislative and admi- lion of the House.—( Hear, hear.) I say it is notorious—it is
nistrative.—(Chcers.) That was the real question, and admitted by lion. Gentlemen opposite, that the Government
the principal difficulty he felt in meeeng, the question How have the confidence of the people of Ireland.--( Cheers.) It, is
submitted to the House, was the absence of anything to notorious that from that country to this, there have bent
grapple with.—(Great cheering.) He looked in vain withdrawn regiments, with perfect security to Ireland, and
to the speech of the Honourable Baronet who had with increased security to England.,-(Hear, hear.) If this
brought the motion forward, and to that of the Honour- had not been the case, would not the Hon. Baronet and the
aisle Alderman v.-ho seconded it, for any topic that Hon. Alderman have been too ready, to have charged this on
afforded ground for the motion, or any reason why it her Majesty's Goveornmaenndnaas sLzanettlit:ctuori security ofe
own -
should. - spartnre of thed
disapprobation er
; of the House. Now, is it because
mg.) He expected that the Hot,. Baronet would have her Majesty's Government possessed the confidence of the
Laid before the House such an alarming state of the people of Ireland, teat, therefore,. Honourable Gentle-
country, and such a dereliction of duty on the part of her men opposite, ask this House to withdraw its confidence
Majesty's Ministers, as would have rendered it imperative from therm ?—(Loud cheers.) The next topic which we
for the House to have taken the administration of the alluded to by the Hon. Baronet was the topic of the Church.
Government from the hands of his friends, and have Here again, as in other parts of his address, he was totally
'tended it over to lion. Members on the other side of the silent in stating facts in support of the allegation he made—that
House.—( Cheers. ) Had any fact been stated to justify the Government were enemies of
li C
11 heat tl
ltieurcehh ;it
ethhaNt„tsh coy°. t psatfi-e
such a course ?—( Hear, hear.) No adequate motive had moSed the voluntary scydetienm,n,avrer.t
What sbadOw of evidence
been assigned by the Hon. Baronet and Alderman for sub- '
r: ltohnegreainthey
support of thatpallegation ?—( Hear, hear.) I ask
witting the motion which had been most justly describes' as the Hon. Baronetsuo to call to his mind the legislative measures
important. He felt, he must confess, some satisfaction, with reeard to this subject.—( Hear, hear.) Does he mean to
in not being the only party who was ignorant of the say the' Eng,,ish Tithe Bill has lessened the revenue or en-
grounds on which the motion had been brought dangered the security of the Church? hoes the Diocesan
forward.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) He had looked of the diocese in which he resides--t Cheers )—and do the
to the organs of the other side or the House, but thee ap- clergy %Nish that Bill to be repealed? Or do they think their
peared as much in the dark as himself as to the motiies of situation has been less beneficial in that respect since that
the lio.i. Mover and Seconder of the motion. They had Bill was passed ?—( Bear, hear.)
arWhere are the petitions. I'7
been toad with great confidence that by the result of the its repeal ? And liaski the i Hon.r
thl3, Baronet tt what I egislat7
trrie.o-,
elections Ministers must find themselves in a minority. "Irek has passe. ' slmF. . ~,.. i est degree rate ed
~
-ened the oderests of tie ..stablished Church ? " Oh,
That on the :28,11 JAnuary would be decided the existence saysr . the lion. Baronet, " there was a measure two Or three years
of the Whig Government—that their existence would be agie" Why slid he not bring his motion on then ?—( Hear. )
annihilated, and that, Government would be transferred to 'there "as a motion for trannerring a portion of the property
the hands of Hon. Gentlemen opposite. That note was of the Church, in which the Church had no beneficial interest
changed, and they had been told that they looked for- whatever, to the maintenance of the fabric of tie Church.
ward to the moral effect of a Ministry.—( Cheers from That measure was proposed with a view to strengthen the
tbe Ministerial side of the House.) Why the motion was Church, by removing that euitful source of discord between
rendered necessary he knew not, unless it were to test Churchmen and Dissenters, which unhappily has rent this
the votes of Hon. Gentlemen opposite.—( Loud cheers from country from one end to the other, and has raised one class of
the Ministerial side.) It was thought that
Gentlemen on the Opposition side wavering in their allegi- had been accomplished, I for one should have been sincerely
anon.-4 Tremendous cheers.) It was still intended to
rejoiced at it. I should have been glad to have enumerated
continue the warfare of detail, but it was feared the war- the accomplishment of that object among those circumstances
which entitles the Government to the confidence of the House.
fare would be somewhat diminished, and it w But therefore I would only ask the house whether they would withdraw
found necessary to test Hon. Gentlemen by a direct vote their confidence from her Majesty's Government, because
of hostility to the Government. He repeated again, thatthey
made the attempt te pass that measure, and were foiled?
it would be met most willingly, if not cheerfully.— —( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Then as to education, the
( Hear, hear, hear, and cheers from the Ministerial side.) lion. Gentleman had made a proposition which I deny, and
Ile was confident those cheers assured him that they were which I will disprove, if he will give WIC any more fitting oppor-
anxious to remove any obstruction to public business— tunny than the present, with regard to the scheme proposed and
(Continued cheering)—and that they would be strengtl carried into effect by the Government for the education
cued in the course of progressive improvement which 1-
of the people. I cannot think that is a ground for asking the
they had all along maintained, and had determined
them House of Commons to
still to withdraw its confidence from the Go-
maintain. The Hon. Baronet had reminded vernment, because, looking at the lamentable state of igno-
that Chartism had been promoted ranee in elect] the people are—at the lamentable effects that
Government. He begged to by the present have followed that ignorance—l think that they ought to
db.:ea.
lion. Baronet referred say that the Right praised rather than blamed for endeavouring to bring forward
to aperiod anmeasure,
which, witnout at all affecting the iii'
the date of Lord Melbourne's G tecedent to comprehensive . .
the Established Church, or the right of the lista-
Right Hon. Baronet, the overnment. Seeing the terests of -
.Member for Pembroke,andthe blished Church to.educate the members of its communion, A
Noble Lord, the Member for Lancashire, calculated to enlighten the people, and extend the blessings of
. opposite, and
' knowing the zeal, thei .liions education to all the classes of the people,
energy, with which they worked the amoral an, re e .
Reform Bill through
Parliament, and agitated the people lof ' (Cheers.) lint
without violating the rights conscience. -
on the subject—( Hear, hear, and laughter)—it would ill I "":
I N did not the lion. Baronet allude to Ireland here? Was it
become •
him, with very inferiorPi ht Baronet, theMbT th
because the sig t - on. ern er for amwor ,
experience, and inferior I
1 and the Noble Lord, the Member for Lancashire, and others
talent, to address a word in exculpation of the Govern- ; who were members of the Cabinet five years ago, not only ap-
nicnt•—(Cheerss) He did not believe in thejustice of the ac- j proved of the principle of the vote for Irish education, but
cusation. The people did not require to be agitated— also proposed an extension of it?—(Cheers.) But, Sir, this
they rose 55 one man. and desired that they should is only one of the many questions on which Hon. Gentlemen op-
be represented.—( Loud cheers.) The Honourable i posite are disagreed and disunited.— (Loud cheers.) Here I
llsronet proceeded—But such, I believe, is not the i A,RY allure to an observation that struck me forcibly
opinion of Honourable Gentlemen opposite—they have : while the Hon. Baronet was addressing the House; viz., that
attributed the Carr 'n of the Reform Bill to ms,i- ! t askinguoici yen to
ltranosffher, yourleer
co confidence fsi d erce from the knoowrnte,dubn-
tation promoted by the Government, and l" me (the' m'ajeittrli)tryinoePtheiss Elolu'se Majestyhitherto, to Government,ioGeitsluelimpen oppoy-
ask any Gentleman to name . any one measure site, they were totally silent as to the policy you might expect
of the Government, which has been carried by agitating : from them, and that upon no one of the many occasions upon
and stimulating the people.—( Hear, hear.) But if the i whicli Hon. Gentlemen opposite have been dividing into op-
lion. Baronet is so sensitive as to the passions of the ; posing, I might say contending, factions, did they ever state
people being excited, let me ask him whether, without which was to prevail, or what policy was to guide the future
coming to this side of the House, he may not find around Administration. (Loud cheering.) Another question in
bins Gentlemen who have excited the people on the Poor_ connection with this subject, as perhaps it is the better course
laws e --( Loud cheers.) Let me ask the Hon. Baronet, to follow the Hon. Baronet and the Hon. Alderman through
whether he has not read speeches made at the last gc- those charges they brought against her Majesty's Government,