The Sun.
London, England, 1823-07-02 00:00:00

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On the motion of the Earl.ofk,itivEnpoot., the Beer Bill
then went through a Committee ptittfinvna, and the dad read-
ing was fixed for Friday next.
The second reading of the Itlsh Insurrection Act was fixed
for Friday next, on the understanding that no discussion should
take place on that day.
APPELLATE JURISDICTION.
On the Order of the Day being read for the House going
Into a Coinmittee.on the Scotch Commissioners of Inquiry Bill,
Lord MELVILLE rose to obviate a misunderstanding which
,pied to prevail on the subject ofd Bill. He denied that
"there was any intention of making alterations in the Scotch law,.
or that the bill was to have any such effect. He took the op-
portunity of Keying, that he could not admit the correctness of
whathad been stated by a Noble Lord on a former night, that
the experiment of trial by jury in Scotland had been a complete
failure; on the contrary, it WAS rather extraordinary, consider.
ing the shortness of the time the system had been introduced,
that -so much had been done; and he was of opinion that the
trial by jury. would be one of the Most effectual instruments in
checking the number of appeals to that House.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE said he was never more aim.
Dished in his life • than when he beard a Noble Lord declare
yesterday, that the experiment of the jury court had completely
failed. He believed that though the system was still imper-
fect, it bad led to snore clear forms of proceedings in the other
courts, and be agreed with the Noble Lord (Melville) that they
must look to the trial by jury as the chief means of diminishing
the number of appeals to that House, for by that system the
fact was properly disconnected with the law.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL agreed with what had beep
stated by. his Noble Friend (Lord Melville), and by the Noble,
Baron (Lord Lauderdale); but in avoiding one prejudice they
must take care and not run into another. He agreed with his
Noble Friend, that it .was not intended to Make any alterations
in the law of Scotland ; but the.alterations were to be confined
to the forms and modes of proceeding. He thought it material
to notice this, because he believed that such alterationS would
cure the evil of which . they complained, if they were carried
Into full effect. But there was another point of importance
which was alluded to by the. Noble and Learned. Lord on the
woolsack last night--that in this country, in all trials the law
is carried on by oral argument in open Court, and those present
are fully aware of the whole of the proceedings,. and through
those persons present the Piddle at large were acquainted with,
the law, and the grounds on which the Judges came to their
decisions.. If the Ilotise could bring the. practice of the law. in
Scotland to that, he believed the appeals in such great numbers
would soon cease: to exist after the alterations hatl.been carried
into effect.. In the southern parts of the empire,.there was no
person but what from motives of common ettriositjt made lime
self acquainted with decisions in, the Courts, and thus we had
the advantageolpublic otrhfion oar he proceeding; whilst they
Were going on ; but that never could he Bad where the proceed-
ings were all written doctimente, which no person, would take
the trouble to read.

The Bill then went through the ,Committee; and the Rcpdrt
was ordered to be received to-inortovr.. _

The Order ot' the /fay was their read for the iMIA6 resuming
the debate on the Itesoltitions refuting to the alteration •of the
Standing Order of the house, tieing five days instead of three
days in the week for hearing
.eppeals.
Lord COLCHESTiIIt :sittd, on • the important subject .of the
person who should be appointed the I)epaty•Speaker, he rtnist
be of such a description, as td be enabled, from his knowledge
of the Scbtelt Law, to declare his opinion .on the case before
the House, should they require him to give it., Vat those who
with him (Lord Ookliester) thought that the people of Seotfand
were entitled to have their eaUttealieard nt that House with the
assistance of the LOrd • Chancellor, would desire • that means
might be suggested *hider/cold enable them to retain the ser-
vices of that Noble and Learned Lord. The true principle
proceed upon, he thought, was, that the highest dunes •
should be retained by the highest officer and on tbbl grin
.Ciple it was for-the House m consider whether it would not be
4toasible for, the -Noble ,and Learned Lord .to call for such
assistance in the Courts below, either •by the, means of an'
eflleient, Master of the Hells -(if there were' not means.one)i or by
the appointment of a Standing CommiSsion, having the assiitt-
ance of two plasters iu Chancery, He did not mean to say
that the duties would he done with the seine efficiency as tit
present, but it would be acting on What be considered the true
principle.
Lord Ii.I4IDESDAIJE said the aceninulatkm of the appeal
business was.not.attributable to any delays which took; place,
but might be -traced to the increasing •populatien and wealth. t.
the empire. The. due superintendence ofjustice in that House
had been of great importance in preserving the doe superin.
tendance of it in the Courts below. Be was convinced that • it,
was the bad amalgamation of the seoteh• feudal law 11.4tiv
the forms of the Raman Lira law, that had led to SO many
appeals oming.to. theit Lordship.% eiont,seotlanti. That un-.
natural amalgamation had given rise•to m • Protifitted'form of
action, and,to it, mass of papers that hail been welltleseribed on
a former evening. by his Noble and Learned. Friend on the
woolsack. Indeed, the. Lord President of the.Conrt of-Session
had stated that he wax completely.embarrassed by the accumu.
latter) of poPeftofhich came before him; and had', complained
that after hearing:ease* tiurinevthe day, he had to. read during....
the evening a,- MOSS dOCOMSO W . amounted in tho, year:
to 20,000 or 27,00(1 close written
.pages.. The Committee had
thought that it might be well to Issue a .roomiii°gort tq igcitire
whether any. beneficial .ebangecould be effdrtod in the. 14W of
Scotland. Ile did. not, believe-that, the. lieges. of Scotian were
so hostile.to the.:Trial by Jury as A, NOWA; 1404 had represented
them to be. He was, however, of opinion, that the Trial by Jury
ought to eta atimi,uistered by the Court of Session, and not by a
separate Court as it was at present: Thaw would have been no
arrear of appeals, if only the clue pruportiou had eoinefrom Scot-
land ; and therefore, if, any mrthod.Gould,io sic rpted topreyent
, sane h 14:ppg Al Is from :b ein Kbrou gl t 1100 re tit eirl•or. d i }pion points
of fact, instead of on points of law, nnarrear.wpolst ill future take
place. The abstracting of tho Lord Chancellor for three days
in the week frorn,the Court of' Chancery must prove highly tn.-
jurious to the suitors of tiutt _Court; and it wAa a delit, of J4ll-
- which the people of Sootland.owAtiste the. netiple of. Ifing.
land and Ireland, not to lettlie aceumulation of their business prove a burden to the suitors in. the UngliA *nil Irish courts
of justice. If any-of their LoodshiP, mad tatty, outa,kketint
plan than that which was at present untie* theie considetagot4
he would willingly embrace it; bait if. the* 0ptt)4401,,, he wool
aitiaa_thcal to try:the., plan DOW. prene -tft, thetot if fur pq
other reason, at least for this—that halt a loaf. was, better than
no bread. . • •

The LOIID-CRANS3IIP.4OII4 io explanation,thal
to a nuttkin the vigeurof .youth Itatt 4414, thpattowimge,
five days in the week ie. hearing tippolso4o4l4 be amiyere duty ;
hut be believed. dist no,llllin who know tint would unr
dertake that duty along with the heavy busitivaa 0t the other
Court.

DEArcteraiittifaLowzardiloiniscustiettation.Oent the of
Lord ELLENBOROMin said that this mg re. they. heard
the Opio;tellt Of the Nehle aud iAmnecl Lur44, the mac
diffieultioc present/4 themselves,. It W4S Said, that from dit
impossibility" a wending for. INQ days t 4 week to appeal
cases, concurrently with etteethel to other important hostiles,
thew mast, be a Deputy Speaker., NO .w. 40. walla osh,
timesinwiliefigirieirlettnlll4teaovBpliteinie:ornikk(Tsl4injonYntlitvtigoeollelfi47l:l"puiPU'elMitl'otlits,C:llo:l4l:44lll47ll4e'af'44;4llT;;;l:Wit;itrilistlchorniT:
of the House of New,. lltts the moat imP°ll4l444oittki wit*, u'IM
the Deputy Speaker to be a Peer? If they. were to lux, ak cum.
MOM, pTeSidittg over tort • Neeti Wild nlOl4 !tom, 1100 part of
a cue, and theu amt three. ethers Wht ratiiht hoar ow next,
and then again over three more 'OO, have ktl,tlecide
opens Om they had only partiikt besot. 1w 1%41 (limpid
that gwitt iruyonvenicogg 10041. 40410 to their liordshiPas
great diintisfaction to the parties, and that the character

•
of the 'House of Peers, as a Court of Judicature, would be
lost. The Noble Lord then went on to contend, that tbeieorn.
pulsory clause would lieve the effbct, mot of increasing, but
diminishing, the number of days for: hearing. appbals. On
the first day of the Sessions, the, names of all theTeers were
to be-put In a glass, and the days of their attendance were
to be fixed according to, the rotation in which they were
drawn.. Now it was possible that the names of Peers 'iv.
ing at the, Most distant parts of the empire might be drawn
for the first attendance. Then time would be required to.send
a notice to that effecit ; so that three Weeks -would be
lost before the business of appeals could be commenced--
Besides, it should be recoßeeted that Many Peers might rather
prefer paying the fine of fifty pounds than submit to the greater
inconvenience of coming at an early period so great a distance.
Then what would be the situation of the house ? Witnesses
and Counsel would be in attendance at a vast expence, and even
if One of the three Peers were absent, no business could be done.
He contended, then, that no advantage would be gained by this
compulsory clause. But his chief objection was to the appoint-
ment of a commoner as a deputy speaker, by which he contend,
ed their Lordships' judicial functions would he comproarised.
me tail of ROSSLYN contended at some length in favour
of the right of appeal to their Lordships by the people of Scot-
land, and from thence proceeded to argue the necessity of some
measure by which the arrears of appeals might badisposed Of.
As to the objection against the presidency of a commoner as
deputy speaker, he maintained that it was without founds.
don, and he cited several instances in which commoners had
presided in their Lordships' house fur years. It Wei not; there.
fore, contrary to the constitution of their Lordships' HouSe and
their frequent practice, that commoners should be in the chair.
But even, with the proposed alterations, he did not think their
Lordships could make any very great additional, progress in.
the dispatch of the appeals before them. Still, however, some.
thing must be done ; and he expected that a great deal might
be done by some good alterations in the courts below. With
respect to the compulsory clause, aid the objection arieing from
it, that three Peers might, have to hear a part of a case upon
which three others who had not heard the whole might have to
decide, lie would observe that there was nothing to prevent, the
Peers who shOuld hear the first part from remaining While
case was eoncluded. It by no means followed that because
only three Peers were mentioned, that only three should attend :
the objection, therefore, on this head, was without foundation.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL, in reply, said that what.
ever might be done for • the future regulation of appeals, it
would be necessary to devise some plan to get rid of the
arrears. The plan of giving five days a week to the hearing
of appeals, instead of three, as at present, would have that ob.
ject. He had no objection to let the resolution stand thus :
The compulsory attendance to be temporary, and only Unfit the
arrears were reduced to a certain number—he would say 40. or
60, or any number to be agreed Upon. Then the question
would, be—if they were to have live days attendance, could the
Lord hancellor attend, consistently with his Other important
duties ? He thought not. Indeed this was not denied on any
side. Then if the • Lord Chancellor could not attend, there
must be a Deputy Speaker to preside on these appeals., It
was objected that this Deputy Speaker might be a com-
moner; but if he were,. their Lordships would not bein any
new situation • for. in the _very best times of the Constitution,
commoners had presided 'in their Lordships' house, and
there administered the justice of the country. Even in . the
present day the practice was by no means unfreqttent. The
Noble Lord then repeated his former objection to the ini-
policy of diiiiding the office of Lord Chancellor freartithat of
Speaker of the House of Peers: In o:inclusion he, that
though the proposed plan was not free from objection, yet it was
the only one by Which they cOnfd get rid Of the load.of
.
items which had arisen from the accumitlation of appods4 Ile
then tidied the first resolution, with the venial aineudinent to
which he had alluded.. , • • ' •

. Lorti,ELLENßonottoH, then suggeited another Mimi-
tiOnt to this effect.:.—that only the names of the Peep preieilt on
the first day should be put Into the glasties to be drawn for at.
Ondance in rotation, by which means the delay which Might
arise from Peers living at a distant part of the, country ?mold
be avoided.

The Earl of LI vEnrom, said, that aftet the first three*,
polutiOns were decided upon he tvould postpone the 'considera-
tion of the others toe future day, by which tune wonld be given
for further consideration. - • !.
The Earl of CA UNA IWON urged the objections madeon
a former night against the establishment of a , tribitnal...where
t part of the case only might be heard by thole who.might have
to decide upon the whole.
The tint anti second resolutions were put, and agreed ,tt>
without a division.
On the.third resolution, which went to make the attendance
of Peers compulsory on the hearing of:Appeals;
4 Lord HOLLAND said he. would nut oppOse,the.reat)intion,
ion the .wound that the house had not the power to make the,
eitrulanon. lie admitted it was consistent with the.Conotitution
pf their Lordships' House, but he doubted the ptilicy.of it. He.
Mid not think it would be equally efficient as if the Peers Were
lift to their own inclinations. Ile admitted the:House had a
right to enforee.the attendance ; but ..when. a ..Peer :was thus
brought compulsorily, he believed their Lordsliipithod no power
tit enforeeins rematningimuch less to oblige him to vote. See,
then, what would lie their situation. The Lords forced to at.
!tend might appear in their places, and answer to their 1141110,
land then might leave the /louse or if they. remained. they
might retlise.. to vote, or to . give permission to the, Depoty .
ISpeaker to give his opinion, and thus the ,Wholtrobject.woUld.
!be defeated. He thought it would be better to leave the attend.
*tee to the patriotism, the honour, and the itenite of duty of.
itheir Lordaltips, rather titan resort to
„ti proceedihe which would
be casting tap updestived reproach upon
Their Itordabilts )hen 'Content,divided—
in I Not Content, 11 I l‘lajority for the resolution, le.
I Adjourned at Tra:t o'Cx.oc