The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-09 00:00:00

Mr. M. MILNE:3 said, that if he might credit
ails' part of the statement of the Honourable
Meta less tr Cork, t lest the Herisci and the.
see
.try /IA not generally anil fully comprehend
and take ineicw the state of Irish misery, he would finer
em :tie of the Right Fan. Bartoifet, for valuable
as 5u71,0 r marks had been, and true, and over true,, as
niauy of his assertions in regard to the landlords
its
Ireland had been, ho could not think that the
ntrunet fully comprehended what the
tats Ui Isi land was, when he said that after
tie rnmitriis he had made he should not
s:int the Irish poor. This was no case of
•iiiii.:p —a fvLs a case of starving. There was no case
H. er c )mpare chronic English distress with
chronic Irish distress. It was a case in
which the English Parliament and nation
had cause to intervene in one of the most singular calami-
ties that had ever befallen any country during the last three
centuries, and for which it was in vam to draw arguments
ind conclusions from the ordinary course of measures.
He might presume to speak of the state of the country
more i eiaiily than other,, ma much as he had himself, with
his own eyes, witnessed it in certain parts of the country.
He said certain parts, because it should be borne in mind
that it was not spread ovtr the whole surface of the
country, but confined to certain districts. The remedy
therefore should not be general in its nature, but partial
in its operation. He should therefore recommend the
most careful consideration with regard to the introduc-
tion of the English poor-law. On the right solution
of that question, the future prosperity or adversity Of
the Irish people would depend. Ile prayed them, then,
to censider that the present state of that coun-
try was oue of peculiar and pressing nature,
and it was required to be met by general
as well as local assistance. The Honourable
and Learned Gentleman said that it could not be
doubted but twenty-five per cent. of the population were
being swept away by famine and pestilence. Now he
did not wish to make a comparison of things
that could not be compared, but if a pauper
died of starvation in the streets of London, the
public press would take the matter up—leading articles
would be written upon it, and the case would be put
forth in the strongest manner to excite public sympathy.
and awaken publio horror. Why then, he would este
was such indifference exhibited, when they_ erefe
dying by thousands across the Channel ? Wes !fr,
because Skibbereen was 200 miles to the
.west
London ? Why should there be one sympathy for
Skibbereen and another for London. Such a feeling
would not be exhibited by the capitals of Gwtinsny or
France to any part of the empire, however ex-
treme, that might be visited by a similar calamity.
Re objected to having those exceptional cases brought
forward upon such occasions as the present. Hon.
Members might speak of workhouses, for the, support of
which no rates were paid—they were only the excep-
tion. Let the House look to the number of
workhouses which were literally groaning beneath
heir load of mist ry and pestilence.—(Hear, hear.)
It was not decent that those exceptional cases should
be brought forward—great miseries and sufferings were
always sacred in the eyes of honourable men.-1100,1
hear.) It was not fair to treat the peeplc
Ireland in the manner they had been treats'
by the Honourable Member for Bath.—(Hear, hear.)
He thought that every moment of delay
in passing these relief Bills, was an injury inflicted on-
the people of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He felt assured.
that in expressing his sympathy with the people of Ire-
land he was only giving expression to the feelings which
glowed in and warmed the heart of every person in Eng-
land.—(llear, hear.)
Mr. P. SCROPE perfectly agreed with the opinione
expressed by the Hon. Member for Marylebone, and he
thought that the people of England would not be satis-
fied with the measures about to be proposed for the
relief, unless they had ample security that, for
the future, the property of Ireland should
be made to maintain the poverty of Ireland.
The rental of Ireland, according to Mr. Griffiths, Wes
stated at 15,000,0001, and it was well known that the
assured sum was upwards of 30,000.0001. The expert°,
from Ireland were upwards of 7,000,0001.
was well known that the resources of Ireland Were
enormous, and at a time when Parliament wefs,.
making these largesses to the people of that country it
was necessary to devise some means by which the pro-
perty of Ireland should be made responsible for the,,
maintenance of its own poor; and he must say that it
the lion. and Learned Member for Cork during the last
ten or fifteen years had been endeavouring to render
the gentlemen of that country sensible of their dutihs
as landlords, he would have been doing ukue,;
more good than he had ever affected by laying he the
them the magnificent results that were to folloW
repeal of the union. He remembered hearing 11.11"-
Honourable Gentleman assert, ten years age
that he was standing in the gap to PIE
vent a heavy poor-law being imposed on he
u°
people of Ireland by the jealousy of England; and
(Mr. P. Scrope) thought that in this session, even La,
this temporary measure, some means ought to ,
adopted for compelling the owners of Irish property to,
maintain their own poor for the future.
Lord DUNCAN said that he wished toestates ptaidn:
dividually he had a great admiration for th irei
anxious
lords. He believed that many of them Here
to do their duty—but lie had been requeshteed
had
the first magistrate of the city which
the honour to represent to state that many of his COTV•
stitueuts were in the last stages of distress, but that they
were willing to do their duty, and that none of their
countrymen should die of starvation at their own doors.
He trusted that some Irish Gentleman would be
able to get up and deny the statements in the
book which had been quoted, for they were really
awful. In the Castlebar union, it is stated by the
doctor that the sick in the hospital did not get the diet
prescribed for them on the 27th of December last,
neither did they get it on the 28th, 29th, 30th, or 31st.
He trusted they had come forward, as they ought to
have done, in the case of those northern parts of
the country to which his attention had been directed;
and he trusted the Irish Members would second their
efforts. He was sure, if they did, although the constitl-
eney which he represented paid many taxes from w=ish
the Irish were exempt, they would willingly come OW
ward, as far as they were able to assist.
Major MACNAMARA. denied the oorreotuees of al
statement made by Captain Wynne in his letters in repro
to the non-payment of the rates in the county acure•
Mr. B. OSBORNE said he had no wish to Prtssi!,:
this debate, but he must say a few words before
closed. He did feel surprised that Hon. Gentlemen
connected with land in Ireland had not thought proper
on that occasion to say something in reply to the feW
words dropped by the Hon. Member for Mo°4
He had no disposition to interfere with the Hon. gem:
Der for Scrope—(Laughter)—he meant the Hon. Merebe'i
for Stroud. But, without saying whether the poor-le!
was good or bad, he (Mr. B. Osborne) did not think
he was justified in bringing on a discussion On that ellet.
!'
Lion on subjects that had little or nu connexion with
But when the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member I°'
Marylebone, lectured the landlords of Ireland on their
duties, and paraded the case of the Castlebar union+
which was the stock in trade of orators of his
description—(Laughter)—as the Keighley Union was °
another gentleman. He was surprised that the lane-
lords of Ireland, who, he regretted to say, were
not represented in that House—(Laughter)--01,"
not get up in their place and tell him that his
inferences were erroneous, and that they did their duty.
fie fearlessly said that the case of the Castlebar Union
was not the rule in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He could
tell him, in several of the unions where there were work-
houses built to contain only 600 individuals, there were.
at present 2,000 inmates.—(Hear hear.) He did 00;
concur in the aspersions cast upon Lord Lucan, and
others. The report of Mr. Otway, the Assistant Poor'
law Commissioner, had been quoted, but he would ask
the Right Hon. Gentleman, did lie know that the Noble
Lord wrote a letter exonerating himself from any blame.
In that letter he said that he was not prepared to centre'
diet the statement.—(lronical cheers.) He (Mth r.
Osborne) was not personally acquainted with e
Noble Lord, but he understood that he kept
the house open at his own expense for A
period of three montbs.—Cheers.) Nay, more, Lord
Sligo had acted in a similar manner with regard to
Westport. Well, then, it came to this. Ballina, Bel-
linrobe, and Castlebar, were exceptions, but he said they
were exceptions, and not the rule. Much had been said
about the neglect of the landlords of Ireland, but he
would ask on whom did the fault rest in the first in;
stance. They had themselves to blame for they hs.ll;
been always in the habit of legislating for Ireland, 29
it was a colony of England.—(Hear, and cheers.)
He repeated it, the Government were legialeting fenr
colony. If the legislation had been conducted i
different spirit, Ireland would not have been in the state
it is at present.
Mr. HASTIE hoped that it would never be said of
him that he had stated in private what he feared
to state in public. What he had stateu
to the House, he had stated on the authority
of the reports presented to Parliament, and delivered
to each Member, every Honourable Member could
see for himself, by reading those reports, that the
Irish landlords had not as a body done
their duty. The Irish landlords, the lessees,
the middlemen and the farmers should, when
of the failure of the potato crop, have formed. them-
selvese into committees for the purpose 0f
v eurr al ht
ihn -
they knew
total amount of the failure, and giving BCC L•
formation to the Government
Everything was to be found by English
wthhea
tuswtleasi
UP°lllllollethye. The duty
quantity of potatoes grown in
.the quantity of oats
of this supervisor was to ascerteahinpwarhiaaht,awnads
the failure of the crop.
TiWcr ale! wasae
r tar ne d that they ought
m jesty'sGovernment andto
to
en
have each
made parish,
v e
pa :vat having
shya
of Ireland were to be assessed
usl degree with that of En
otclooo/. a-year would be requiregd
thiste the
land, 1,500,0001. to 1,8
House.peev.
poor-rate
tteh e
inp raonp
from the Irish landlords. In Ireland, the gross rental
from land was known to be upwards of 15,000,0001. a
year. The usual assessment on land in England was
ten per cent, and it was not until the Irish landlords had
borne a burden equal to that that they could be in n
position to come to the people of this country and ask
for relief. But when that was done, then he was quite
sure that no man would refuse to bear his share in ren-
dering all the assistance he could.
Sir D. NORREYS said that Sir W. Beecher, who bad
formerly had a seat in that house, had been made a district
surveyor, about six weeks or two months age, and he thought
that such charges as those of the Right Hon. Baronet should
have been restrained until his report of the districts was made.
The Hon Baronet had not made his charges fairly,
he made them he ought to have inquired how far .his state-
me its were justified by the condition of the whole of time
hundred and thirty-six districts in Ireland, and whether all
out of ten of the several workhouses were not perfectly full.
for before
The country gentlemen, in many instances, had been wilting ,
to extend the poor-law, when the Poor-law Commiisioners
have stepped in and
revented them. He did not mean to be
the apologiser of all the Irish landlords, but, considering the
panic which prevailed, they bad exerted themselves better
e
than under the circumstances might 11011 inn expected. To