The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-29 00:00:00

GROUP XLVIII.

This Committee resumed its sitting this morning at twelve
o'clock ; Lord Courtenay in the chair. Members present—
Mr. Towneley, Mr. Chutepr. Seymcr,land Mr. 8.8. Cabbell.
GLASGOW, PAISLEY, IC.XLMAR,NOCICI AND
AYR (No. XV.)
CROSSING OF THE CLYDE.

On the assembling of the parties,
Mr. ANDREWS said, it was his painful duty to inform the
Committee thathis clients had received a communication from
the Admiralty, which he begged leave to hand to the Commit-
tee. The effect of it was equally against both companies that
were seeking to cross the Clyde at the point proposed, as it
contained; the decision of the Admiralty against any crossing
of the river at the place proposed by both companies.
What, therefore, he wanted the Committee to do was, to
adjourn the Bills that related to the crossing of the Clyde
till Monday, in order that further communication might be
made with the Admiralty, to see if an alteration of that
decision could not be obtained. The Royal Commissioners,
who had been sent down to inquire into the subject, had
reported strongly in favour of the propoced plan, and
that no injury to -the river would arise thereon; it was,
therefore, to be hoped that some modification of the Admi-
ralty's decision would be Obtained before meeting again.
Mr. FOBSYTII, on behalf of the River Clyde and Bridge
trustees, opposed the adjournment.
Mr.
said that Cci(nuingth on behalf of the Caledonian Com-
pany,
though his clients had not received any
communication from the Admiralty, they did not expect a
different decision from the one which had just been
produced by his Learned Friend. He must, how-
ever, say that it was at?,unexpeeted decision. Last year
the Caledonian had obtained an Act for the crossing of the
river, subject to the approval of the Admiralty ; this the
Admiralty refused, and UT result was that the inhabitants
of Glasgow, dissatisfied with this decision, took measures by
which Government Commissioners were sent down to inves-
tigate the whole matter. They sat three weeks making their
inquiries, and made their report in favour of the mode of
crossing proposed by the Caledonian Company. The ques-
tion now was, whether the veto of the Admiralty was to
override; the discretion of that Committee and the Legisla-
ture in reference to this matter.

The CHAIRMAN inquired whether the Admiralty, in cases
like the present,fdid not communicate to the. Committee their
decision ?

Mr. ANDREWS-It is, I lbelleve, always done through the
parties who promote the Bill.
Mr. COCKBURN thought that if the Committee acted on
the decision of the Admiralty it would be idle to
proceed until they saw what could be done
to modify that decision. If the Committee, on
the other hand, thought that the report of the Commissioners
should modify the veto of the Admiralty, then it would be
better to proceed at once. It was a question entirely for the
Committee, and he left it to their discretion. He would only
remark that they had all their witnesses in town, and if they
adjourned for a week or ten days, it would occasion great
expense and inconvenience,
Mr. AunitEws said the veto was a most important matter,
as by the general Act the Admiralty could veto in all ~,uch
cases as the present.
Mr. COCKBURN suggested that it would be easy to insert a
clause in the Bill to except it from the operation of the general
Act. The question would be for the Committee to say
whether they were disposed to adopt a clause, taking the Bill
for the crossing of the Clyde out of the operation of the
general Act.

Mr. ANDP.EWS intinuted that all he wanted wa3 an ad-
journment till Monday. Their scheme was somewhat dif-
ferent to that of the Caledonian, inasmuch as it pro-
ceeded from their line tip the south side of the river, and then
croesed ; whereas the other scheme was proposed to go in a
direct line to the river, and then to cross. The question
was, whether the Committee would go on or postpone the
matter to see what could be further done, as at present the
veto of the Admiralty was against a crossing of the river
below Stockwell Bridge.
Mr. FORSYTH said his clients had opposed this crossing of
the river at great expense, and they were anxious not to
be put to any more. For the three past years the proposal
for crossiug the Clyde had been successively vetoed. He
hoped, therefore, the Committee would not allow the parties
to proceed with their Bill, unless with the proviso, that if
the Admiralty vetoed the crossing of the river, they
would nevertheless go on with fie rest of their
scheme. He, for one, thought it was perfectly
hopeless to get the Admiralty to withdraw their
veto, and it might, therefore, be considered absolute.
He could not be a party to nei dless loss and heavy expenses
by adjournment, as be thought the promoters ought to have
ascertained the sentiments of the Admiralty long before now,
instead of coming forward with it at the eleventh hour.
They knew that the Admiralty had opposed the crossing for
two years past, and it was too bad now to call for an adjourn-
ment of the question. He called on the promoters of the
two Bills to make their election now—either to go on with
the rest tf their scheme without the crossing, or abandon it
altogether.
In answer to the CHAIRMAN,
Mr. ANDREWS said, the former vetoes of the Admiralty
did not apply to the present mode of crossing the Clyde,
with the exception of the decision of last year. The pro-
posal of last year, as of the present one, was to cross the
Clyde between the New Glasgow-bridge and Stock-
well-bridge. Above the former bridge only small
vessels ever went, and, therefore, no harm would
arise to the navigation by the proposed scheme.
Besides, in the present year they were in a different position
to what they were last, inasmuch as' three gentlemen of
great character and talent, one of them a naval officer, had
gone down to Glasgow, and after being fully satisfied, by
evidence taken on the spot, reported that no injury would be
done by crossing at the point proposed.
The room was then cleared for the decision of the Com-
mittee. On the readmission of the parties,
The CHAIRMAN said that the Committee had agreed to
postpone the question till Monday next, in order that the
Admiralty might be:- communicated with ; and that to-
morrow they would take the other Bills in the group that
were in a position to go on.
The Committee then adjourned.

GROUP LI.
The Committee assembled this morning in Room No. 29.
Present, Sir John Yarde Buller (chairman), Mr. Tollemache,
Captain Plumridgs, Mr. Newdegate, and Lord John Manners.
GLASGOW, DUMFRIES, AND CARLISLE,
AND GLASGOW, PAISLEY, !ICILMAR-
NOCE, AND AYR (No. I.)
Additional evidence was called by the promoters of this
Bill.

Mr. Alexander, examined by Sir T. Pitiful's, was called
.o prove the protest which was put in by the promoters.
Mr. Sergeant Munrxv wished to know whether he should
be entitled to examine the witness on this subject?
Sir THOMAS Plituars said he did not intend to examine
upon the point.
The CHAIRMAN then said that as the Committee had called
for this protest, and as the examining Counsel did not desire
to examine upon it, he thought that it would be unnecessary
for Sergeant Murphy to ask any question on the subject.
The protest was then read, and put in.
Captain Turner, shipmaster, Dumfries, was ship's hus-
band of the vessels in which he had an interest. He was
well acquainted with the coast and with the navigation of
the Solway. The loss of vessels was not by any means rare
steamer,
on the
which Sol
in the Frith ; within the last two or three years no less than
six vessels were lost on the coast o
ya
Solway.
was ib' eo
bound
membered the loss of the Solway
from Belfast to Port Carlisle. He imported from
;andaDn tudh, ine
fr
saving, Dumfries.
Kirkcud-
bright the English coal fields 1,200 to 1,500 tons yearly.
with Is. 6d. for
cde-
altt
Belfastcost 81sa
s,.
some6d. atu s. pCearrtloisnle
carriage, averaged 10s. in
s
bright were a port of shipment to the people of Belfast,
would be about Os., as compared with the port of Annan at
that time.
Cross-examined by Mr. Sergeant MURPHY—He bad
never known any shipment from Kirkcudbright to Ireland.
There was a large trade from Annan. The trade of Dum-
fries was larger, although Annan possessed a deeper river, and
Could therefore accommodate vessels of larger burden. lie did
not say that the Solway was lost in a fog, but he believed
that she was crowded with cattle. She was lost at a place
called Southerness, about 16 miles below Dumfries. The
freight from Port Carlisle to Ireland was 78. 6d. He could
not doubt that if a railway were extended from Canobie to
Annan, the carriage of coals to this place would be lees by
3s. 4d. per ton than to Kirkcudbright, but then the latter
place had the advantage in the sea carriage to Ireland. He
knew that at low water ships would be obliged to anchor six
miles front shore. He did not know that Lord Selkirk, whose
grounds lay between the .!ea and the town, was opposed to
railways.
Mr. Henry Smith, living at Fleetwood, was a merchant,
and agent for the North Lancashire Steam Navigation Com-
pany, and was well acquainted with the ports on the Solway.
The navigation of the Solway Frith was more dangerous
than any on the west coast of England. He included the
ports of Carlisle, Annan, and Dumfries. Goods entering the
Frith, and intended for Carlisle, were obliged to be
transhipped and conveyed up the river in barges. Annan
was a dangerous port for shipping. He did not mean Annan
itself, but a place called the Waterfoot, about a couple
of miles below. Glencaple was the port of Dumfries, and
passengers and goods were obliged to be conveyed from
thence to Dumfries, a distance of seven or eight miles
When the tide was very low, which occurred perhaps thrice
a year, they could not approach Dumfries nearer than
Carsethorn, a place about fifteen miles down the river. The
witness detailed the number of communications front
Whitehaven and Fleetwood to Belfast. The distance from
Fleetwood to Newcastle was perhaps 200 miles by rail, while
from Kirkcudbright it was little more than 100. Goods
sent from Belfast to Newcastle and the east of England at
present went round to Glasgow, thence by railway to
Leith; these were re-shipped and reached Newcastle by sea.
He considered that competition was absolutely necessary to
protect the public against railway companies. An instance
in proof of this came under his notice. When only two
companies were carrying from Fleetwood to Manchester the
prices charged for carriage was as 13s. 4d. per ton ; but, after
the North Union Railway came into the field, the price was
reduced to 65., while attention to the comforts of the people
was greatly increased. He considered that it would be of
the highest importance that this Bill should be sanctioned.
Cross-examined by Mr. Sergeant MURPHY—It was his
opinion that Kirkcudbright, if this railway were completed,
would be the port for the traffic of Ireland intended for the
south of Scotland. There were some good ports on the Clyde,
but none of these would supersede the port of Kirkcudbright
as tie key to the south of Scotland. Girvan would
not be preferred, for persons would never think of sending
their goods round by Avr. He did not know that goods
w ,re sent to the south of Scotland in greater increase
since the Lancaster and Carlisle Railway bad been opened.
Return goods from Kirkcudbright would consist of woollen
goods manufactured in the district. The only parts which
had at present a communication with Ireland were Port Car-
lisle and Annan, and if the Kirkcudbright Branch were
opened he conceived that, instead of one steamer, they would
have three. If goods were to be sent from Kirkcudbright to
the centre or west of England, they would probably be trans-
mitted by the Caledonian to Carlisle, and thence by the
direct lines to the west and centre—that was, supposing the
rates alike; but, for the east of England, he thought they
would be sent by the Dumfries branch to Milton, and thence
on by the Newcastle and Carlisle.
Captain Russell, harboar-master of the port of Belfast,
said that there was a very considerable import trade from
Newcastle to Belfast. The freight would be carried at 20s.
a ton. If this branch to Kirkcudbright were opened, he
thought that the southern trade would be exported from that