The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-17 00:00:00

course of a year or two, build up a measure upon the
experience which they would thus be enabled to gain.
It appeared to him that this Bill was at variance with
the object it professed to have in view. It was wished
to stimuli's the owners and occupiers of land to embark
their capital in the tivement of the agriculture of the
country and the e ent of the people. It professed
to encourage emigre, on, and yet its provisions were not
of a nature calculated to make emigration a beneficial
measure to the people, nor was it at all likely to improve
or facilitate the collection of the poor-rates in Ireland.
That such would be result of this rash experiment he
was assured. It looked, in fact, more like the reckless
proceedings of gamblers than the cool and sagacious
resolutions of statesmen. It was exceedingly singular
that, while their affairs were in a prosperous state,
no measure of this kind was contemplated, but as soon
as these affairs got into a state of confusion, then they
forced this measure upon the House. He wculd give
his decided opposition to the Bill.
• Mr. F. FRENCH wished to call the attention of the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government, and of the
Right Hon. Baronet beside him, to certain communica-
tions which he had rec ived of the lamentable state of
some of the districts in Ireland. He found that, in the
workhouse of Castlecarey, the master, the matron, and
the surgeon, had died of the workhouse fever
which prevailed among its thousand inmates.
He had now called the attention of the House to the
state of things which existed, and he hoped some atten-
tion would be paid to it by the Right Hon. Baronet the
Horns Secretary.
MESSAGE FRO'el THE LORDS.
Messengers from the Lords brought up several Bills,
which were ordered to be laid on the table.
Viscount JOCELYN wished to offer a few words.
He believed that it was one of the most important mea-
sures ever introduced, and one which he could
not look
upon without some degree of appre-
hension. Ile wished that the amendments and al-
terations which had been made might be the means
of making it operate without danger to Ireland; still he
thought it would have been wiser if the Government had
introduced a temporary measure to meet the evils,
instead of bringing in a measure of a permanent
character, during a time of excitement like the present.
He was at a less to understand how they were to come
to any conclusion as to what might be the effect of the
calamity upon the people.—(Hear, hear.) He felt that
this measure had not so Lair a consideration as
so grave a question demanded. He did feel
that they were legislating permanently for what
might be only a temporary calamity. No Minister
ought to pass a measure inflicting the right of out-
door relief without being at the same time pre-
pared to show that there could be a test im-
posed to prevent the abuse of the right. They
might be told that the poor. law test might be applied,
but that would be bsinging them back to a pauper
workhouse test, which had inflicted so many
grievances already. In this change about to be
effected there would be a great increase of pauperism.
He hoped that in 1847, when the law was under re-
consideration, the evils which had hitherto attended its
operation would be remedied. He recollected that an
Hon. Member, on a former occasion, urged it upon the
Government to carry through a poor-law measure
purl pa.esu with the measure of the temporary
relief. Now, he was of opinion that the far-sighted
people of this island could not be better employed than
in bringing out the capabilities .of Ireland. He would
not now enter list° the question whether all kinds
of property ought to be subject to a rate.
_ He wished to inapreas upon the Government the neces-
sity of calling upon mortgagees, annuitants, and others,
to contribute their f* share towards thesupport of the
people, as proposed by this Bill. No doubt
many. of the proprietors of land, if they had
imagined that such a burden as this would be
imposed upon them would not have entered into arrange-
ments with others, for the purpose of raising money
upon their property; but that was no reason why the
land should not contribute to the support of the poor.
He considered that no able-bodied labourer, who sunk
into distress, should be denied out-door relief, because
temporary aid might enable him to get work again in a
short period. He sincerely thanked the Noble Lord for
the spirit in which he had brought forward his measures
with respect to Ireland. At no time hie] Ireland
offered se ample a field for the labours of a courageous
Minister, and he trusted that this measure, in
conjunction with others, would redound mate-
rially to the advantage of that unhappy country.
He said that the present moment was one to introduce a
most efficient system of legislation for Ireland. There
were many Gentlemen who thought badly of the
landlords of Ireland; he was not there to defend that class;
but if they would consult the report of the Commission,
they would find it stated that many of the charges
against the landlords of Ireland were exaggerated.
However hateful the landlords of Ireland might be
to this country, it was through them that they
must assist the suffering people of that country.
The landlords only were in a position to give out to
the poor people that essistacce which this country
wished to extend to them ; and, therefore, it should be
the aim of the Legislature to put them in such a position
that their good qualities could be exercised while their
bad ones could not be brought into play. Much had been
said of the evils of the union of Ireland to this country,
and many stated that that stneion would be
fatal to Ireland. Such a statement was incorrect.
but he thought that if the union was fatal to the one
country it would be fatal to the other ; for England relied
greatly for her prosperity on the well being of Ireland.
Mr. TRELAWNY said, that as emigration was
paid for out of the coffers of the State, it
was only another mode of out-door relief. He
would be against a poor-law, were he not assured that the
wandering paupers did much more injury to property
than any poor-law could effect. He wanted to know
whether there was any intention to tax personal pro-
perty for the relief of the poor of Ireland. As yet no
intimation to that effect had been given ; but he trusted
it would be done in the course of the present debate.
He agreed in the main with the Bill, as he thought it
sound and just in the whole, and therefore he would
not oppose it.
Sir W. JAMES wished to offer a few words on the
measure under the consideration of the Houle. He had
hoped that a system of emigration would have been in-
troduced, but the statement of the Noble Lord at the
head of the Government had done much to damp their
expectations in that respect. Now one word regarding
the measure before the House. He agreed in the main
with the excellent observations of the Noble Lord, the
Member for Lynn, that it was a measure which was
imperatively required, but they ought to beware that
the evils pointed out by the excellent Prelate the Arch-
bishop of Dublin, in the other House, did not arise.—
(Cries of " Order, order.") He thought that this mea-
sure ought to be accompanied with another measure,
giving some relief to land, from the great pressure to
which it was subject.
Mr. P. SCROPE said he regretted the many altera-
tions which had been made in the Bill during its course
through the House ; alterations which had been hailed
by the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn ; all of them
concessions in favour of the landlords of Ireland. One
of these concessions was an alteration in the second
clause, limiting the authorising of out-door relief only
in case the workhouse was full. Another concession was
the immense increase of es-officio members of the board of
guardians. Applicants would, before they can receive re-
lief, be obliged to give up their farms, and that operating
on 300,000 or 400,000 individuals, would have a most
disastrous effect. There was another proposal of a most
infamous kind which would have the effect, he believed,
of throwing the whole of the rates upon the tenants, and
the Bill would in consequence, it was asserted, become
practically inoperative, and therefore ought to be re-
jected by the House. Then there was the clause with
respect to the leases, which would again have the effect
of throwing the whole of the weight—an unknown
weight—upon the tenant, which would be excessively
oppressive at a future period. Something had been al-
leged in a pamphlet published by the Archbishop of
Dublin, which went entirely upon an assumption, for there
was not the slightest ground of proof to support the alle-
gations to which the conclusions of the author led.
The author of this pamphlet asserted, that in the first
flaw a poor-law never could be levied upon Ireland; and
if it were levied it would, secondly, be so burdensome as
to be a greater evil than a benefit, so that it could never
be carried into effect; and, thirdly, even if it were to
be carried into effect as its directors desired, the result
would be a destruction altogether of the poorer classes.
But this was all assumption, and the assertion that there
could be no relief to the able-bodied poor; for, if it were
afforded it would altegether destroy the rents of the
lands, was equally groundless. For his own part, he
believed that the imposition of a sound poor-law would
be influential in improving the rental of Ireland. The
Noble Lord the Member for Lynn (Lord G. Bentinck)
bad asserted that the rental of Ireland was upwards of
17,000,0001., and other authorities, among whom Mr.
Senior, had estimated it at 13,000,0001., while others
again had stated that it was no more than
8,000,0001 Between these several accounts there was
a sufficient margin, and take it as they would the rental
constituted a tolerably extensive fund, and one which
would not be easily exhausted. At any rate, it would be
sufficient for the present, and there would be sufficient
to give an opportunity for bringing the poor-law into
effective action. Then there was a third allegation, that
the imposition of such a law would demoralise the Irish
peasantry. But what ground was
.there for this asser-
tion? he Irish peasant had invariably shown himself
trustworthy, wherever his energies could be brought into
play, and where his traaoth was relied upon; and although
at had been said that an
of
Irishman would never work so
long as he had a loaf bread
ed left, and that they were
not in any way to be trusted, however, had never
been shown to be the case, whersuecoP;dilhraen had been left
nature ; and when
to the impulses of their own
the fisher_
the benevolent Mr. Foster had gone
who were in urgent distress,ainong
men,
lent them money, they had invariably band had
to go out, and had done so with considerable success.
and had brought in such a quantity of fish as had pro.
duced 800 per cent. on the money which had, been lent
to them, end which had honourably been repaid. It wag
therefore evident that the Irish people were always ready
to avail themselves daisy advantage that could be thrown
in their way, and had evinced the utmost readiness to
exert themselves to procure a subsistence for themselves
and their families ; is all cases where they had been put
to task work, no men had excelled them in the results
which had arisen from their labeurs. In England they
bad always shown themselves ready to undertake work
which English labourers wculd not touch. Such was
the case in America, and in the latter country the poor
expatriated Irish had absolutely made up a fund of
200,000/. for the relief of their distressed fellow-country-
urc mop• 4,p) would conclude with reading a letter
' 'Doyle, written in the year 1831, which
rse?ese— 0003481 that if some sufficient provision was
not that* for the poor, that the whole foundation
Of ioeiet iwould be broken up. That prophecy had
nearly come to pass. But it bad been alleged that this
Bill had, en too suddenly and too frankly introduced ,
lad It wit seerted thtl it oughtto have bees introduced
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