The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-17 00:00:00

THE SUN,
_LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 17, 1847.

that
only.been once made during the course of 18 months in
looarbtdisehuE.nalorni , and even that rate, by the admission of the
(Lucan) had not been effectively collected. Their
te Ts would ure-:ierstand and consider whether the len-
gds,ovveue:ee.d bb Mr. Otway concerning this union was a whit
set haer di n Bu',, the Noble Earl had thought proper to blame
rir-rne nt, because the Government had not come for-
bad • tAn case of this union and repelled the facts which he
jud 148.. read to them. He would leave their Lordships to
of
oge. °l':his after hearing the documents themselves. He was
Plni'on, that if the Government had done that, they would
di Conferred direct encouragement on those boards of guar-
"Zitr"d who were so disinclined to do their duty, and a discou-
ragement to all those hoards who, by some means or other,
managed to raise enough to support their expenses, and to
)keep their houses full ; if Government had done so, it would
have been conferring a direct premium on all such conduct as
had been just represented to their Lordships. Mr. ()sway, he
helieved, did no more than his duty in writing to the Poor-
law Commissioners as he did, and if he had not done so in such
tease
farsomthat of the Castlebar Union, he would not have
done his r'soisy. He (Earl Grey) said he could not
refrain,llend from,
thaehoNrotlbylecoEmarmlennetainr
him (
g on an expression which had
1
Earl Fitzwilliam). He
bearot her.rd the Noble Earl commence his speech, but he had
there
v
had h :/Is.res comment on the number of legal processes which
er-1, issued in the west of Ireland, .and he had said that
a close connexion between these processes and immi-
gral:ton into England. He (Earl Grey) believed there was a
ye•l'Y close connexion between these processes and the immi-
gtali°n; he believed that a very large number of persons against
Whorn processes had been issued had collected together the
*lv effects which they had remaining, had sold them at what
they would realise, and before these processes were perfect, had
left the town of Mayo for the shores of Liverpool. The Noble
-Earl (Earl liktawilliam) had said that these statements had
been made with the intention to indispose the public mind of
the People of England against the Irish people, and to do justice
to Ireland, Now, on his (Earl Grey's) part, and on the part of
his No'olo Friend, a very near relation of his, be must
tea's did ho not believe that statement to have been made
• the Noble Earl inadvertently, he would have commented on
._`"e• expression with no small degree of indignation. But it
°Wild be recollected that these gentlemen were responsible
Us Government, and those who were also responsible for the ad-
'ministration of the government of this country. The Noble
:Earl had stated that the Government and those connected
With it during the course of those discussions had made use of
language which called in question the conduct of the landlords
of Ireland. He much regretted this statement ; but if his
Noble Friends had read the papers which had been presented
to Parliament—if they had read the blue book which he held
in his hands—if they had read the report made to the Board
of Works--if they would take the trouble of reading those few
-volumes, they would know that neglect of Irish interests was
not one of the faults of the Government. (Hear,
benr.) He was quite sure, that under the circumstances in
Visich they were placed, the Irish landlords would exonerate
the Government from tho censures cast upon them. But he
would counsel the Irish landlords to hear the truth. However
disagreeable the truth might be, yet they had better hear the
truth now than some months or years hence, when it would be
perfectly useless. It was plainly evident that Ireland could not
remain in the same situation as she was now—dependent on the
assistance of England. The Irish people must help themselves,
they must put forth their powers, they must exert their energies,
they must rise their powers to get out of this state of doubt,
difficulty, and uncertainty. They must not depend on this
country, for however strong any Government might be—and
he did not care at all of what men it' might be composed—he
was quite sure that public opinion on this subject would be too
Strong for it, and this system must cease. He did not wish to
make any attack on the landlords of Ireland, but whether there
bad been a want of experience, or from what cause it might be
he could not say, but from some reason or other there had been
a failure on the part of the landlords of Ireland. That was the
truth, of the accuracy of which he was painfully convinced,
and, being convinced, he thought it was his duty to enunciate it.
But at the same time he appealed to their Lordships—he ap-
pealed to those who had watched the progress of the debates
In either House of Parliament—whether in either House any
member of her Majesty's Government had used one word of
censure towards Ireland without reluctance, and without ex-
pressing their deep regret at being compelled to use it—
whether they had not gone as far as their truth and conscience
would allow them, in uphohiing the right of Ireland to be relieved
in such an emergency as the present ; and whether they had
not gone as far as their duty te the empire at large would
Permit them, in asking Parliament to be liberal and most
generous at such a period,—( Hear. )
Lord MONTEAGLE said, his Noble Friend (Earl Grey)
bad not said anything in the course of his address at all calcu-
lated to relieve the Noble and Gallant Officer opposite (Lord
lAtean) from one of the most cruel and unjust charges
*--whether contained in a blue book, or in proceedings
elsewhere—that it had ever been his lot to find directed
against any individual ; and the Noble and Gallant Officer
would be less than a man if he had submitted to be held up to
Public obloquy and not come forward to vindicate himself in
the only just and legitimate way that was open to him. He
agreed with his Noble Friend (Earl Grey) that great Mcon-
Venience resulted from the Members of one House referring to
the debates in the other ; and when he had been exposed to
animadversions in the other House of Parliament he had
strictly adhered to this rule until the other night, when he
made some reference to what had been said respecting him ;
but if this usage was to be adhered to, it was requisite, when
charges were to be made against a Noble Lord a Member of
that House, that notice should be given to him, in order that
be might be prepared to offer a defence; but if he were
put upon his trial without having this opportunity offered to him,
this usage could not be maintained, and the person so attacked
had a perfect right to reply to imputations cast upon him,
though they were made in the other House of Parliament.
The Noble Lord had been held up to obloquy because he and
the other guardians were unable to collect the rates ; but when
he found this was the case, he came forward and, out of his
private resources, supported, and still supported, the persons
who in that locality stood in need of relief. Unfortunately, in
this country such instances were rare, but the occasions which
made them necessary, it must be admitted, were also rare.
The answer of the Noble Earl to the charge of non-payment
of the rate was, to his (Lord Monteagle's) mind, most satis-
factory, as there was not a single rate due on his property,
some of the rates charged against his property not
having been due by him. But the Noble Earl
had also stated that ho had directed the issue of 100 dis-
tress warrants against defaulters in the payment of the rates,
and he (Lord Monteaglo) would ask, was it not the most unpa-
ralleled folly, and would It not be the greatest audacity for any
one to make such a statement if he himself were a defaulter ?
(Hear, hear.) It had been said that the shield of the Govern-
ment was extended over the Irish proprietors in these reports.
He did not want such a shield to be extended over them, and
he denied that the Government officials were warranted in
making the statements they did against the Irish landlords.
He thought it was wrong in the Government to publish the
statements which were to be found in the blue book laid on the
table of the House, for there could be nothing more
unfounded than many of them. What, for instance, could be
more calumnious than to state that certain magistrates had
hounded on the people to assassination ? Such a gross in-
justice, such an unparalleled and unprecedented a statement,
had
never been made in any former blue book presented to the
,linoFse. Another charge was made, that a certain clergyman
I the county Mayo was a firebrand. Now, this was a charge
which, he contended, never should have been made in the
books. Certain statements had been also
made with with respecttoe
Father Mathew, which, he thought, would have been better
had they been omitted. He thought that the Noble Earl had
fully acquitted himself of the charges made against him.
After a few words from the Marquis of WESTMEATH in
defence of the Irish landlords, the subject dropped.
FIRE AT ST. JOHN'S, NEWFOUNDLAND.
Lord PORTMAN moved for copies, or extracts of corres-
pondence between the Secretary of State and the Governor of
Newfoundland on the subject of the fire at St. John's, and the
measures adopted for the relief of the sufferers ; and also soce
er extracts of correspondence between the Secretary of State for the Home Department and the committee for raising sub-
scriptions for the relief of the distress occasioned by the same
ire. His object in making the motion was to allay an impres•
Bien that existed in some parts of England, that only one-half
of the money collected under the Queen's letter had been ap-
propriated to the purpose for which it had been subscribed,
and that the other half had been devoted to the building of
churches by the Bishop of Newfoundland.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH asked if it was the Pro-
%tient Bishop.
Lord PORTMAN presumed that it was the Protestant
Bishop.
e Earl GREY had no objection to produce the papers moved
y the Noble Lord, and when they should be laid on the
table he would see that the money had been properly expended.
PORTUGUESE OFFICERS.
Lord BEAUMONT gave notice that, on Thursday next,
1a..0 would put a question; to the Noble Lord the President of
Pthe Council respecting the officers of the insurgent army in
ortugal, who hag lately surrendered themselves at Torres
Bras to the forces of the Queen.
MINISTERS' MONEY.
Gear Lord MONTEAGLE presented a petition from St.
ge's Limerick, against Ministers' money. Also
petit on from the town council of Limerick against light dues.a
BREWING FROM SUGAR BILL AND DISTILLING
FROM SUGAR BILL.
The Earl of CLARENDON, in moving the second reading
of these Bills, said that the first Bill had come up on
Thursday last, and the second had been just received,
but as they were similar in their character and provisions, he
thought it would be expedient that they should be both taken
together and read pro fornui and that the discussion on them
should be taken in dommlttee. To consult the
convenience, therefore, of their Lordships, he should
abstain at present from entering into any statement with re-
spect to them ; but he might observe, that they would be an
act of justice to their West Indian colonies, and would not be
productive of injury either to the revenue or the agricultural
interest. At the present time of scarcity and of high prices,
he thought they would not be wholly inoperative in alleviating
the great distress which prevailed throughout the country. He
would now move that the Brewing from Sugar Bill be read a
second time.

Lord STANLEY observed, that his Noble Friend was quite
correct in stating that no discussion should take place on these
Bills at this state ; but, at the same time, he thought that the
Noble Earl would not hays abstained from stating what
the grounds were en which it was proposed to
make these permaaent instead of temporary measures.
These measures were introduced under the cover of being
temporary. These were Bills which might affect materially
this country as well as the colonies, and which, consequently,
would affect very important interests. When these measures
were brought forward, not as temporary, but as permanents
they ought to look most carefully into all the details and
figures. Unless her Majesty's Government should consent to
refer these Bills to a Select Committee of that House, he gave
notice that he would move that these Bills be referred to a
Select Committee of that House.
Lord MONTEAGLE considered that all the Bills con-
nected with the subject should be read together.
The Earl of CLARENDON was ready to give his Noble
Friend the reasons which had induced the Government to in-
troduce Bills of a permanent character. A pledge had been
Riven in the course of last session on this question which could
tint consistently be receded from. With respect to the course
proposed to be adopted by his Noble Friend opposite, that
these Bills should be referred to a Select Com-
mittee he could assure the Noble Lord that
there was nothing' complicated, but, on the contrary,
what was most simple in the details of these Bills. They had
already
passed through the other HOUR', and even those op•
posed to the Bills did not object to the principle upon which
th ey were based. His Noble Friend opposite had stated that
ist was not his intention to create delay. yet he must say that
uelay would be created if those Bills were referred to a Select
Committee. If the principle of that motion were agreed to,
there was no Bill involving fiscal or commercial details that
b!night not be subjected to delay. He therefore felt himself
odimd, on the part of her Majesty's government, to
n
resist the motion of the Noble Lord. With respect to what
t,„ been said respecting the Bill relating to the duty on rum,
-„?.-.r.e had been seine delay, which could pot be avoided. His
t
that Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to whom
speaking yesterday on the question, was of opinion
,
hat Bill should be read first:
Lil ST A NLEY, when be used the term cover, did not
alt,
~
aeitvnat he had said in any offensive sense. The ground on
til this measure had been brought forward
not nix) was
been any pledge of the House that had
givnen to relieve immediate distress; it was
distin referred to in the Speech of her Alajestv as one of
those etlY
the di
measures to be introduced for the purpose of relieving
44grese that prevailed.

After a few words from Earl GREY, the two Bills were
read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Friday.
THE DESTITUTE PERSONS (IRELAND) BILL.

This Bill went through Committee, and was ordered to be
reported on Thursday next.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 16.
MODE OF PUNISHMENT ADOPTED BY THE
BOARD OF WORKS IN IRELAND.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he must
trespass for a few moments upon the attention of the House,
while he made an explanation in reference to a statement he
made the other night. On Friday night last he stated,
upon the authority of a gentleman well versed in such
matters, that only from twenty to thirty men per
mile were employed in the construction of a railway,
and therefore that only 25 per cent. of the actual cost was
expended in labour. Last night the Honourable Member
for Shrewsbury said that he had mistaken the meaning of his
informant, and he (the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury) had had
a communication with: him, who stated he meant there were
only 25 labourers per mile permanently employed upon a railway.
This morning he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had re-
ceived a letter from the gentleman who supplied him with
the information ; and, with the permission of the House, he
ould read a portion of it. The first paragraph was this :
Of the total cost of railways, 25 per cent. is the outside of
what is spent upon the ground in labour. I find, from a large
number of results, that the average number of labourers em-
ployed in the construction of a railway of ordinary character,
may be taken at from twenty to thirty men per mile for a pe-
riod of three years." Now, when he addressed the House he
did not say that twenty-five men was the number employed;
on the contrary, he took the maximum number, thirty, and
then, assuming the quantity of work to be contracted at 1,500
miles, as stated by the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn,
that would give employment to 45,000 men, that was at the
rate of thirty men per mile, not twenty-five, as stated by the
Hon. Member for Shrewsbury.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon.
Member for Shrewsbury then went on to say that he (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) had misconceived the informetion
which he had received. He held in his hand a letter from the
same gentleman whose information he quoted on Friday last.
and which he received this morning, written since the delivery
of the speech of the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury last night,
in which he stated, " I never called upon Mr. Disraeli, or spoke
to him, or communicated with him in any way.—(Laughter.)
My information to you was fact." Ile (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) hail no business to state anything more upon this
subject, but he thought upon the authority of the extracts
which he had read that it would be evident to the House that
the p e.son from whom he derived his information did not in
any way communicate with the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury;
secondly, that he did not say that he (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) was mistaken as to the information he had
given to the House ; thirdly, that he did not incor-
rectly state the information which ho had received;
lastly, that nu Information was given to me by that gentlemas
whose name if I were to mention would be considered by
Hon. Members as a most competent authority, had been dis-
proved. He did not believe that the Hon. Member for
Shrewsbury would, any more than he (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer), state anything to the House which he did not
believe to be strictly true ; he believed him perfectly incapable
of so doing. After those statements he thought it was evident
that the Hon. Member had been misled or imposed upon, and
if he would forgive him making a suggestion to the Hon.
Member, he would advise him not to make any statements to
the House upon which he could not most correctly rely,
and the truth of which he had not most carefully sifted. By
acting otherwise the Hon. Member tended to invalidate not
only such statements as those he made to the House last night,
but also to detract from the weight of ether statements which
he might make to the House.— (Hear, hear.)
Mr. DISR AELI could assure the Right Hon. Gentle-
man that if he used any expression in the course of the
debate which might have caused him any annoyance, he ex-
tremely regretted it. He felt that respect for the Right lion.
Gentleman which was always due to his position, his talents,
and his abilities.—( Hear, hear.) lie thought, however, that
the Right Hon. Gentleman had wrongly stated the question
before the House. What he (Mr. Disraeli) said to the House
was, that a gentleman of great experience in the management
of railways, and well known in the scientific world, had sup-
posed, in consequence of the speech of the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer
that the information he had given him had been misunderstood,
He had reason to believe that he was the person referred to
by the Right Honourable Gentleman, and lamented
that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should have
fallen into such a mistake. The whole misunder-
standing arose from the use of anonymous letters. Had the
Right Hon. Gentleman mentioned the name of his informant,
there could have been no possible mistake upon the subject.
He did not say that he had seen the individual to whom the
Right Hon. Gentleman referred, but that he had seen an
individual who believed himself to be the person referred to.
He was authorised to name the person to whom he alluded,
but he did not think it fair to do so, especially as the Noble
Lord the Member for Lynn was present during the interview.
Mr. COLLETT said that he would not interfere with the
privilege of the Member for Wycombe, but that he hoped to
be fortunate enough to catch the eye of the Speaker before
the close of the debate.. He thanked her Majesty's Govern-
ment for the course eney had pursued with respect to the
public works. It had answered in every instance, and men
who had left the country were new enabled to come back with-
out the fear of being shot at.
Lord CLEMENTS wished to put a question to the:Right
Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The
Right Hon. Gentleman in his speech the other night had
stated that the landlords in some parts of Ireland were pur-
suing a system of ejectment by means of processes for rent
to an exent never before known. In one quarter
sessions he had said that 6,400 processes, had
been entered, so that 4,000 were issued by the landlords
for rent. He was quite were that the Right Hon. Gentleman
would not wish to make any misstatement with regard to these
processes, and he ( Lord Clements), therefore, wished to know
from the Right Hon. Gentleman from what source he derived
his information ?

The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER said that he
made the statement on the authority of a person who had been
in Mayo and through pu-t of Galway, and who had made the
communication to the Right Hon. the Secretary for Ireland.
If the Noble Load wished to ascertain the number of these
processes there would not be the least difficulty in moving for
a return of them.

IRISH RAILWAY lIILL.—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
The order of the day- for the adjourned debate was then
read.

Mr. B. OSBORNE !said, in rising to address the House he
would endeavour to condemie his observations as far as the
nature of the subject wou Id admit. He quite agreed with
what had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, th at they should steer clear of all
party policy or political c:tvasideration in discussing this ques-
tion, so important to the -interests of Ireland as well as the in-
terests of this country. fie for one never could admit that
there was any distinction. between the interests of England
and those of Ireland, as that which had a tendency to benefit
Ireland also benefited this country.—( Ilear, hear.) But the
Right Hon. Gentleman th e Chancellor of the Exchequer had
fallen into the very error himself of which ho warned other
Hon. Members. He had expressed himself dissatisfied with
the names of the Noble r...ord and the two Hon. Members on
the back of the Bill. Now he ( Mr. B. Osborne) must say
that whatever difference of opinion he might have with the
Noble Lord the Member- for Lynn, or the other two Hon.
Members, he felt certain, that on the present occasion they
were sincerely desirous of benefiting Ireland.—( Hear, hear.)
This was no party question,, and much as he admired the ability
of the Hon. Member for M ayo (Mr. D. Browne), he could not
see what connexion there was between the earthwork of rail-
ways and the extension of the franchise, or that the principle
of laying down railways •would have an effect on the Irish
Church.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member might as well
talk of the advantages that would result from a Conservative
engineer, or a Protestant starveyor.—(Hear, hear.) In history
he recollected a circumstance equally reasonable. It was also
during a period of famine., During the great fire of London,
when the metropolis was suffering from famine and distress, the
people of Ireland sent over 20,000 fat cattle ; but the historian
said, that so high did pa rty spi sit run, and so bigoted were the
citizens of London, though ma•ay of them were famishing, they
refused to taste the beef bees ,use they were Popish bullocks.--
( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) But they were so far improved,
that none objected to the present scheme, because the Noble
Lord who proposed it was a supporter of the Esta-
blished Church.—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. B. Osborne)
regretted that the Noble- -Lord the Member for the city of
London had not only oppc;a ad the Bill, but held out no hope
that a measure for railways in Ireland would be introduced in
the present session. He (-11 Ir. B. Osborne) lamented that inti-
mation, but having heard it_ he was bound to recotd his vote
in favour of the Noble Lard the Member for Lynn. While he
gave his support to the prim ciple of the Bill, he did not pledge
himself to do so in its details ; for when the Noble Lord spoke
of 16,000,0001., he thought that he would have rendered him-
self more popular if he had msntioned a somewhat lesser sum.
He would not give his a upport to the measure on the
ground assigned by the Him . Member for Kilkenny (Mr. John
O'Connell), who was indi ff. !rent as to the nature of the works
so long as a large sum of money were transmitted to Ireland.
He (Mr. Osborne) would not give the measure his support on
that ground, but he belie :red That the measure of the Noble
Lord contemplated profit; able works, on which English capital
might be safely invested. 'He could not help observing that
Hon. Members who
le
~ o,nonththiss
sqaumestion atppeahred not to
h a v listenedr toto
htlaieves
peeZ. n 1 looked at thee 'ideate in ythler.nvei=
news-
papers, for they brought fors rard the same fallacies which
theon Cthheanficresntores rennfinfhe
Exchequer,Righ Honourable
o uwrhaibelhe
werewee Gentlemanur
ged
afterwards so triurap hantly explodedand by
Honourable
no
nußrr
aiagbbhii
ect
Honourable the Lord 111.iryet
wwsbotifr-yY.
York
kThe Right
tiler had alleged that onplyeht,wie'edntyi.
tbc Friendc h
atnhceelllioermofbetrhefeEr
.Sch
he;
five per cent. of the gross outlay would be ex
labour, whereas it had been proved that from.n
sixty to seventy per co .nt. would be so expended.
It had also been said that it w as not right to interfere with
pri-
vate speculation. As appli ed. to England, no doubt that doe.trine was good, but it was entirely different when introduced
into Ireland. The Noble Lord at the head of the Woods and
Forests a few years ago was of this opinion, and if he was not
mistaken, the position the Noble Lord then took was supported
by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Member
for Portsmouth—nay, the Matte r Hon. Gentleman went so far
as to say that he was perfectly .astounded at the statement of
the Hon. Member for Tamwo: rth, that it would be unwise
to interfere with private speculation in Ireland.
He came now to the principal -objection of the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, namely, thsit h e was unwilling that the State
should become a great money—lender, He considered that it
would be mach better that• the State should be so, than
become a profligate spendthrift, disposing of the money of the
country
in the highways awl But what had been
the policy of the State ? Wi,y, always that of a money-
lender. He would men ti on a fact which could not be too
often impressed upon thelfoust •, that since the union eighteen
millions had been lent to E ngl and and Scotland, out of which
'
only six millions had bees r. _pal d, whilst within the same period
nine millions had been le at •t 4) Ireland, nut of which seven
millionsg
to the
beensham
shame
eeopfawi dot
e(
coo,tti:kot
r. ?es, That was an account
refer toa
tehreetihto onf.lNreielamnbde.r
for m
oold
n.tronsow ntdiregrsetaattelymetuntsthoef
:tie
hard
and he thought that the
Hon. Gentleman was a li;its his observations with re-
gard to Irish proprietors, a.:
irs dlideoidng he objected to Ireland's
drew an inference which he
e
getting
certainlying ny not
money warranted;
unlessSt atlan
got some also. Now he
( Mr. Hume) should have recullected that Scotland got a very
fair share of public mone:e. She got upwards of a million of
n(eod proprietor
likewise."
money fur
a rtheemnCaplaerti%ionn be cotch l adndian i
hear. ) He drew
moreover,
and the Irish, bidding t' ae latter to
Now, he would ask, did he know what,t the Irish
landlords were doing. One en
Noble Lord in the nntty,f(rNbourer
iroal.teirn-
fthsredp,
owreihthasaenoifnlcnodmiacnomf 2e
al, and
wasaysceatnr,phloayn
had spent peever
Y county
upon his estates, and ever
.y other proprietor in the co
imitating his example ; and he knew that the ladies of Ireland
were were selling their jewels and disposing of their jointures, •'
order to alleviate the dist xess. He did not allude to those who
u
his
were laying down their carriages, and diminishing their ex-
penditures, because 30, was what ought to be dune
by every one wh's hail a heart to feel, but it
was not just • to hear the Honourable Member
thank his God that h e was not the public sinner.—( Hear,
hear.) There was the Marquis of Waterford, whose name was
never heard but in as ;ass ciation with works of charity. What
was the reason that the., 'Scotch proprietors availed themselves

of the Drainage Act, while the Irish proprietors did not? The
Act was so drawn up, that it was impossible for any of them
to take advantage of it. Whilst he was on the subject of Scot-
land, he would state that there was a time when the inhabitants
of Paisley—he would not use the term used by another Hon.
Gentleman, and say that they came yelling for money—but he
would say that they were in great distress, and came to the
House for a vote of money. Who were the people
who supported them on that occasion ? Why, the
Irish Members. An Honourable Gentleman, the other
evening, in making his first attempt in that House,
had stigmatised the Bill Of the Noble Lord as an unusual mea-
sure, and in his argument he confined himself to the immoral
tendency of railways. He said that Irish railways were ali
bubble transactions. If he held any shares in the Kingstown
Railway—which it was clear he did not—and had been in the
habit of receiving the dividend, he would have been slower to
perceive their immoral tendency, or their ruinous character.
The Hon. Member for Sunderland had stated that the English
capitalists refused to embark their capital in Irish railways, but
that was because they had no security for their completion,
and if the Government would once assist them, the English
capitalists would be the first to come forward. It was not
till last week that a grant was made for this railway, amount-
ing to 78,000/., and it was stated by the Chancellor of the
Exchequer that Mr. Saunders, the secretary to the company,
wrote to him, objecting to employ the paupers
on the railway. From a letter he had re-
ceived a few days since from one of the directors
of the company, he found that one provision of the grant was
that the able-bodied paupers should be employed by task-work
to perform the earthwork of the railway. No notice had
been taken of the numerous presentments made to the Exche-
quer by the barony over which he had the honour to preside ;
and after a period of four months, the Government had adopted
the principle of the soup kitchens, a hint which they took from.
that admirable body of men, the Quakers. He did not believe
that such benefits would result from this soup measure as were
anticipated by the Government. There was no work
for the people of Ireland, and the Government
ought to establish some system of public works
by which the people could obtain provisions. He objected to
giving relief
etowtahsesepreroy
the statements made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer of
bthyethPeenl landlords of oodfethoaft Ireland
by pnleotofto
Chancellor of the Exchequer in his place.
An Hone. MEMBER—He is unwell.

Mr. B. OSBORNE—He was still more sorry to hear that
intelligence, but he did not wonder at it, after the monstrous
statements he had made.—(Laughter.) That Right Hon.
Gentleman had been also most grossly misled upon the subject of
the immense number of ejectments served in the county of
Galway. He had received a letter from the lieutenant of the
county, stating that there was no authority for any such assertion.
He thought that the Government was most seriously to blame
in not calling the House together at an earlier period. The
Hon. Member for Shrewsbury- had so attacked and refuted the
arguments of the three Chancellors of the Exchequer, that it
would be cruel to torture them any more. The Chancellor of
the Exchequer upon the other side (Mr. Goulburn) had said
that it was a most injurious thing to raise a loan in a time of
peace. Why, was not the present a most pressing emergency,
even more severe than the devastations of war ? Besides, was
it not more rational to employ the public money
for public purposes, than in improving the private
estates of the landlords by grants for drainage ?—(Cheers.
In the vote he was about to give, he did not. feel the mis-
givings of some Hon. Members, that, if the measure were car-
ried, the Government would resign. It was nothing more than
a mere threat—the Government would not resign. Govern-
ments often take leave but always seem loath to depart, and the
threat was nothing more than a mere crack of the whip for the
purpose of bringing up the Whig recussants, who could not be
brought to vote except under a threat of resignation.—
(Cheers.) He called upon the House not to make the present
a party question ; but because he considered the sufferings and
distress of Ireland as of greater importance than keeping in a
mere Whig Ministry, he should give his most cordial support
to the measure of the Noble Lord.—(Cheers.)
Colonel CONNOLLY congratulated the Noble Lord the
Member for Lynn for the very able and statesmanlike manner
in which he had brought the measure under the consideration
of the House. He would have no hesitation in saying, that
in comparison with the measure brought in by the Govern-
ment for the relief of Ireland, the Bill of the Noble Lord was
perfection itself, and, inasmuch as he (Colonel Connolly)
preferred a permanent to a temporary measure, bor-
rowing, and begging, he would give his most strenuous
support to the measure before the House. (Cheers.)
He said he had communicated the statement which he had
just made respecting the market of Enniskillen, that the re-
turns in the one year had been 58,000/., and the next year it
had amounted to 99,0001. ; and, in addition, the amount of
the population of the town itself. He would not at present,
remark further upon Enniskillen, for he would return to it;
but from the fact which he had just stated, he passed imme-
diately to the Ulster Canal, which was the more immediate
subject of consideration, and he begged to ask the house,
after having heard of so great a difference as that between
58,000/. and 99,0001., they were prepared to say the Ulster
Canal would not ultimately prove remunerative, if only time
had been given to improve the traffie, and bring out its pro-
ductiveness? Again he said, the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
attempting to disparage the project of the Noble Lord, had
stated that much the greater part of the project had been pro-
posed to be carried out as a matter of private enterprise, and
he said that it was proposed to do that at a cost of only
5,000,0001. instead of 16,000,000/., the sum asked for by the
Noble Lord. But he (Colonel Connolly) had no doubt that
by stating that sum the Noble Lord (Lord G. Bentinck) had
given himself ample margin, and unwilling to stand at all in
his own light, or to meet unnecessarily the amount of public
obloquy which would be raised if the smallest part of his plan
were not realised, had named such a sum as he was quite sure
would bring the whole project, in all its details, to perfect
completion. But when the Chancellor of the Exchequer com-
pared the 5,000,0001. with the 16,000,0001., it was strange
that, during the course of the discussion, some had
entirely overlooked so rernarka'sle a fact, which had
been quite forgotten, that the project of the Noble Lord had
been proposed to be carried out by private capital and enter-
prise, and that these very persons, as soon as they received the
encouragement of the Government, would come to the rescue
and effectually carry it out. Too much, he thought, had been
made of the withdrawal of those persons for the present from
the execution of the works. The House knew well the
position in which those persons were—that they were entangled
with the difficulties which became general, owing to the un-
happy state of the money-market. He trusted, however, that
they would be able soon to recover themselves, and ho thought
the fact that those persons had subscribed for the
construction of railways some 5,000,0001., a fact
which had been. used against the Noble Lord's
measure, on the contrary made for that measure,
and showed that the moment that Government would sanction
the raising of 16,000,0001., those persons would certainly come
to the rescue, and make good the effectual realisation of the
project. He was sorrry to say that it was the unfortunate
condition of Ireland,that the attempt to introduce English capital
into that country had, left them worse than they were before ;
for it had induced a reckless expenditure of money while the
spirit of speculation existed, but the money-market became
deranged, and this attempt had ended and left them worse
than when it began. It had been said, however, that the pro-
ject had been brought out only to serve the purposes of the
railroad speculators, and not to feed the people of Ireland ; but
that was an imputation which, as an Irish Member, not think-
ing it ever would have been made, but now that it had been made,
would repel with the utmost real. He thought it was much to the
credit of the good judgment displayed by the Noble Lord, when,
without any Irishmen in his councils, he had brought out so
splendid a project. He (Col. Connolly) did not like to say any
more in the presence of the Noble Lord himself, or even so
much, but eulogium had become very customary in that House,
and the Noble Lord would get used to it.—( Laughter.) It had
again been stated that the construction of the railways in
the east of Ireland, instead of relieving the Irish people, had
actually been a source of poverty to them. Now he did not
hesitate to give it hi, positive denial. He had full opportunity
of seeing the operation of railways in Ireland, for his window
looked out on two railroads, which ran some ten or twelve miles
from Dublin. Now although these railways ran through four
parishes, there had yet been no presentment for their con-
struction at the sessions, and all that he as an individual
had been called upon to pay, was only 101., to keep down the
markets. The House now, then, had two sets of measures be-
fore them, and it would be for them to givethe preference ; but
he asked them whether they were prepared to prefer the mea-
sures of the Government, which, he could not say, would pre-
serve life, but rather leave them to die by degrees—measures
which certainly would not de more than keep them in a mere
state of existence—or the measure of the Noble Lord, which
offered labour and honest remuneration to the starving people,
which would give them due support, and would restore them al-
most to their former position within a reasonable time ? The
latter measure—that proposed by the Noble Lord—
offered not merely a miserable support till August,
o‘• autumn next, but labour and remuneration for the next
four years. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had spoken
slightingly of the productiveness of Irish railways. Now he
could tell the Right Honourable Gentleman, that before the
present session he had come along the course of the Mullin-
gar line, which was a prolongation of two of the best and
great trunk lines in Ireland. He was well acquainted with
the course of that line, and the course of some of the others,
and he was strongly impressed with the productive nature of
those lines as soon as they should be completed, and it was
on that ground that he begged the Noble Lord at the head
of the Goverment to hand over the money asked for under the
Government measures to the Noble Lord who had brought in
the present mpaartrp It hard 11Pen seated, however, by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the people or tremed ere.e
not fitted to carry on the works on railways; but he begged to
state, in contradiction to that, on the credit of a document
published by Sir John Maeneil, where he stated that the
people were hard set the first week to earn their wages; the
second they could do it tolerably ; and the third week they were
ambitious of taking task-work, and showed no small amount of
cupidity. He said there was one great system of railways
projected onwards to Cork, and had been construeted
to Carlow. It was of no use to compare the remunerations of
that railroad with the London and Birmingham Railway.
end,wWi
thhy, there
and
nda
rge were a
about
g a
ptthe
en bstoahumet
et
xiednt
middle
il
tea constructedsdweasaitm t
impossible
oe
s s bt
other
it
eef
rt
that
tt
rtsehumec
such i
ty,
ae
rnauiltwhaey pay.
justHe advert thoughtsborty thatto
theone
would
Ireland—to desideratum t
the
in
e
Ireland was a line of railroad between Dublin and Belfast.
railway between Derry and Enniskillen. There were some
ten
miles of rail laid down, all the land had been bargained for,
some of it paid for, but it was still h
itunmade; and the question
seemed to be in that House whether
et
was
fieldthese
of enterprise
de
encouraged in their usefu
s effortsthetz benefit the population.
He looked upon these railways
capital into Ireland. There
there was a starving population who esweretm means of introducing
eager f.r em
em-
ployment. The Noble Lord's Bill would not only finish the
railways already in progress, but create cabers which were al-
most imperatively demanded, and that not at the cost of th
public. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had admitted tha
the western part of Ireland had been very much neglected
On the coast of Galway the *Ca was teeming with
fish, for which there was no market, while it was
notorious that fish bought in Galway on the Monday could
he dressed and upon the table in the afternoon of Tuesday in
Liverpool. If there were proper roads in Ireland, there would
be abundance of commerce to carry upon them. In Donegal
there was a salmon fishery, from which one hundred tens of
salmon was taken every year; and fee was an undoubted feet,
that trade in salmon had been doubled from the simple cir-
cumstance of there being a railway between Liverpool and
Birmingham.—( Hear, hear.) These was not an inch of
ground between Dublin and Galverey, orld
not
the other
places mentioned in the Bill, whichN wonderfullywas
'7:Lord if it
benefited by the measure of the carriednt
• • betwe en them. He had no
of a means of communication
• cr would stimulate the
hesitation in saying that notinne,
the establishment of
out; the people were starving at each of these places for
prosperity of Ireland more than
markets —which were a necessare consequence of wood
h was scarcely a
limit which could be put on the benefi
ere
cial effects of the pro-
,
roads. Markets would stimulate the consnmptism of manufac-
' tures ; and thus they would find tha t there
, posal of the Noble Lord. He had heart 1 it said that this was
mid say to the Noble
the time to regenerate Ireland. He w'
was the time to Lord the Member for London, that it
re-
generate Ireland, and the present Bill .as the very measure
Captain LA Y 'OM said that every
by which it was to be effected.—( Hear. )
Member who N;g.
an Irish represesitative would not fail in a reeiing of
Jour
He considered
gratitude to the Noble Member for LI ',ln.
that a system of railways would c onfer great good upon
Ire-
land, but he did not see from when ,eo the . money was to come.;
Where would they find such an enc qatons um as 16,000,000/..
H on.

He was content to support the measures of the Noble Lord
(Lord J. Russell), because he believed he would not turn
tail in this emergency, but do his best to promote the welfare
of Ireland. The late Government, and those who supported
that Government, professed themselves anxious to befriend
Ireland, but the Noble Lord at the head of the Government
had proposed and expressed himself desirous to carry out
others in a similar spirit. There were upwards of a million
horses in this country who were fed with corn, but he saw no
reason why these horses, but more especially those connected
with the army, should not be put on a smaller allowance. If
this were done three millions of people would have food for
seven or eight months of the year. Many impu-
tations had b •en cast ou the characters of Irish
landlords during the debate, but many of them were spending
immense sums of money, with the view- of providing food for
the people. He read a letter from a gentleman in the Queen's
county, stating that the resident gentlemen and others had
come forward in a princely manner to relieve their suffering
countrymen, and that the owners of the soil, who were in that
part absentees, had contributed but a trifling portion of that
sum. He was well acquainted with Ireland, and his ex-
perience led him to form the opinion that a more stringent
poor-law was required, which would throw the support of the
poor upon the owners of the sail and others, who were in a
condition to pay their quota towards their support of the
poor. He felt proud, as an Englishman, at the
noble exertions which had been made in England for the relief
of the distress in Ireland. To show that the Irish are good
workers, and could not only rely, when supplied with proper
work, on their own exertions, but aid their relatives at home,
he read a letter from a gentleman in New York, stating that
during a short period—since November last—the labouring
Irish of that city had remitted to their relatives in this country
600,000 dollars, or 130,0001. sterling. It was an exciting
period,rtiosion but theyot,eN
must
their free and calm judgment. He could not support the pro-
oblenot allow that excitement to prevent
Lord.
Sir J, WALSH had been an attentive observer of
these debates, and had gathered from the speeches of
Irish Members of all parties, and from all parts of Ireland,
that the Irish people looked upon the measure in a kindly
spirit, and that it would do much to relieve their sufferings.
He thought that in the course of the present debate many of
the arguments of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor
of the Exchequer had been entirely demolished. All the
objections he had urged against the measure had been com-
pletely disposed of. But before going into the merits of the
question, he ( Sir J. Walsh) would remark that it seemed to
be the general impression that the potato crop was not only
destroyed, but that there existed no probability of its being
perpetuated. He regretted to hear this, and hoped that such
would not be the case ; for he could not agree with the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that such
would eventually result to the benefit and improvement of
Ireland. However much he might admire the tone and
spirit of the Right Honourable Gentleman's address,
he could not agree with him in the opinions he had expressed
on this subject. He was quite persuaded that if the potato
crop was permanently destroyed, there would be the greater
suffering and distress, and that it would be perfectly impossible
for the poorer class of occupiers to maintain their position in
the country. A great deal had also been said respecting a
poor.law for Ireland, but he felt sure that if such a poor-law
was carried into effect as many advocated, the whole capital of
the country would be swallowed up. The property of the
country would be borne down by the burden, while the small
farmers would themselves be the greatest sufferers. Again,
the cultivation of the waste lands had been recommended% as a
panacea. Now he was firmly persuaded that this scheme was
one of the wildest imaginable, and would prove itself anything
but adequate for the evils of Ireland. The reclamation of
waste lands required two things—time and capital—whereas
the condition of Ireland wanted prompt and active remedies.
Emigration had also been referred to, and he much re.
gretted that the Government had net brought forward a com-
prehensive scheme as an auxiliary to the other measures
they had introduced for the benefit of Ireland. He knew o I
one noble proprietor who had an agent in Canada to assist
all parties who arrived in the colony from his estates
in Ireland, and assisted them in locating themselves in the
colony. The emigrants, in consequence, found themselves
among friends as soon as they got there. Such a system of
colonisation might be extended under the direction and control
of the Government. —( Hear. ) With regard to the present
measure, he believed it would awaken the latent energies of the
country, and therefore it had his most cordial support. He
would not speak of its advantages in opening up mines of
wealth, in accommodating the fishing on the west of Ireland,
or in carrying fuel and other produce all over the
country ; but he would say that they would be mach to
blame if they neglected to introduce into Ireland one of the
greatest means of improvement and human elevation ever in-
vented by the genius of man.—(Hear, hear.) He had no de-
sire to go into the details of the question after the very able
speech
ed.
follow, and the
pickH Hon. Member
some f
aeftosr
wShrewsbury,but
le left
stilltinht mightuntouched.
In doing so, he could not do better than to refer to a report of
Sir John Macniel, the eminent engineer, made to the share-
holders of the Great Southern and Western Railway in Sep-
tember, 1845. ( The lion. Member here read an extract from
the report in qtestion, stating that, for a considerable
time, there had been a great number of labourers
employed under him, and that every one was satisfied ; they
conducted themselves in the most exemplary manner ; had all
been unskilled labourers, and that throughout the district
through which the line passed there was no one unemployed. )
By another report made by the smile engineer in the March
following, it speared that there were 25,000 labourers em-
ployed, all Irishmen, in the district, and the same beneficial
results were in operation. Another objection which he heard
urged by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was, that it would
be an injustice to other railways. The Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer read a letter from a correspondent of his, and indeed
all his correspondents appeared to be anonymous, stating that
it would be an act of madness on the part of the Government
to encourage all the railways projected in Ireland. It was quite
clear that railways already established gained enormously by the
extension of the railway system, and hecould mention many cases
in which railways would be benefited by the formation of other
lines. Neither could it be said that the English railways
would be injured by this measure, for many of the English
lines would be immense gainers by the extension of the rail-
way system in Ireland. His Right Hon. Friend had urged
that private enterprise ought to carry out these railways, and he
was willing to admit that the carrying out of these immense
undertakings by private enterprise was a great proof of the
healthy and civilised state of the country. But his Right lion.
Friend might push his argument too far, and say that these
railways ought not to be carried out by any other means.
That was not so. Let them look at the Russian railway from
Petersburah to Odessa, which was carried out by the Govern-
ment, and no ono could deny that that line would be of im-
mense benefit to the country ; and similar circumstances existed
in France. He could mention many other instances, but he
was not willing to occupy the time of the House by
Lord was chiefly a financial one, but he thought that was an
objection which must really rest upon the urgency of the neces-
sity. The Noble Lord had also said that English funds would
theiblye
entering upon them at present. The objection of t
not bear this great call upon it, and there could be no argument
fact. If
adduced on the subject which was less founded upon
they could convince the House that the advance was necessary,
eould any man doubt the capability
' ' sum ? He did not furnish this comparatively trifling
itself, but only
under-
stand the Government to object to the advance
._
.s in
to the security for repayment. Let them see if the railwal)t
Ireland would give a proper security for the payment.that there
of the English nation to
ap-
peared from an extract from the railway returns
thDublin and
were four railways in operation in Ireland—
Kingstown, the Ulster Railway, the
Western.
Drogheda, and the Great Southern
and
the Ulster
The Dublin and Kingstown paid 9 per cent. ;
;
Railway paid 51. 10s. per cent. on the share capitaltai,
the Dublin and Drogheda paid 31. 14s. on the share c_ pi
ndaWes-
although not completed ; and the Great Northern a
1,0001.
t_s_ 'Dublin and
tern, which was only opened since August last, paid
per week, and, deducting 4001. per week for workingln
ex-
penses, that would give 31,2001. per annum. The
the Noble
the line was 56 miles, and if that, according to
Lord, were to cost 16,000/. per mile, that would give
904,0001. The two-thirds of that would equal 602,0001.,
t• would be
and the interest at three and. a half per cell-e..
as a
21,0931. ; and so they would have a revenue of 31,00 W
se.
length of
security for 21,0001. per annum. Was not that a propercurity for the money to be advanced? And let themu
remem-
ber that the last railway was only open a few months,too,a.nvd_
very imperfectly developed. He felt himself forced el °
of
calcu-
lated above all others to give relief to the present distresses
Ireland.
his vote for his Noble Friend, for the measure was one
Mr. V. STEWART said, that whatever
Lord would
opinion on this measure, he trusted that the Nobblee
He
net consider him less grateful than he should
He thought
(the Noble Lord) had already done for Ireland.
16,000,00 w ,
that on such a measure, involving so large a sum as
a responsible
brought forward by the Noble Lord, and not by
adduced to war-
Government, sufficient argument had not been
Noble Lord deserved
rant its adoption. He thought that the
sure before the
the greatest credit for bringing such al might be his
do as he was then
have tendered it to the Government, and n
He had not made up
doing, force it upon their consideration.
was suffering as it
his mind, however, that while his counts
the one which the
then was from famine, this measure was
miseries.
,
Ile railways
country, but he thought that the Nob eolnlet eoard ought only to
House could best adept to alleviate its misoerthe
people on three
must certainly give general employment t
which would
slop, there would be large portions of thewcas
quite aware that
not be benefited by it. Although 12te
iro.„,
Stitt they must
everybody must be anxious to benefit
a state of greater difficulty
necessarily 1
P.... the Government in
e• of a loan of 16,000,000/.
by encumbering them with the raisinato
step
forward, and not
miles on each side of their course, but eveononwti:yh that affinis-
That was the moment for any one
lie wished to say nothing
Government would not sanction..
Ireland. If they could be
against the formation of railwayshionn
eht they would be of great
formed by the Government, be a
h had taken a great part in the
interfere by forcing them to adopt me
advantage to the country, for
Goveroment would give that
Limerick Railway ; and if the
of a_sures which a responsible
could in carrying out
aidgreat benefit, but then the
counties ought to reader w
this design. had never felt greater pain in giving
Sir 11. W. BARRON ,
assistance, he felt it wouldhhate
but he fe t so com 1. d
nt occasion, p icate
a vote than on the prese .
vete engagements, that he could
by his public and byhhiisse private
0 thence to vote against the promo-
not bring his mind or
Ireland. Let him not be misunder-
tion of railways ina single share, or had the
not
r ehee
points
ndts given
which
hi c h
stood, for he heldd
railways, but yet he was con-
vincedslightest interest in
plan which would be so likely to
they
that there was no
promote
he had been one of a deputation who waited
rail-
ways. Last year
Baronet opposite (Sir Robert Peel), at
upon the Right Hen. .
nster was the head, to put this measure
the interests of that country as the formation of
which the Duke of Lei
embodiedy i ni n
thelB3h9
in coincidence with a
vote which was at that time perfectlynow e the
at the head of the
views of the Secretary forlreland,
He had then advocated the views which
Woods and Forests.
he now held, and they were Th
Government. ese three point -
he had submitted to the s w ere
retted that the Noble L
shortly as follows, and he re
Lord at the
in hisplace. He i -
head of the Government was not iad.then stated
before the Government ofthatda
that in Ireland they had no
.resour7s, no capital, no machi-
nery for the formation of rail ways in Ireland. But in Eng-
contrary was the fact, and in following land precisely the . the
i felt that it '
Noble Lord in those views he . was right. Now his
this, that it it was right in 1839 to promote
principle was was • •
the formation of railway?. in Ireland, it still more right to
do so now. He did not pledge himself to the 16,000,0001.,
but if the principle were right, then the details were
of
secondary consequence--(Cries of "No, no.") He might be
wrong, but if he understood Parliamentary usage aright, it was
that in giving a vote for any measure on the second reading,
he was only committing himself to the principle of the
measure and not to the details of the plan.—(Hear, hear. )
The second portion of the plan was to promote the railways
themselves; and the third:course was to advance money for the
formation of these several railways, and he conscientiously
believed that not a shining would be lost. He would
refer to a petition which he had presented in 1839, and he
might say that he should be ineonsistent if he did not vote now
for that which had been the object of his desire, in 1847. That
petition was headed by the Duke of Leinster, followed by
the Marquis of Bedford, Earl Mountcashel, and other equally
influential men in that country. This petition stated that rail-
roads were the best means which could possibly be adopted for the
impreveseent of Treleort. He Led been reminded that the
present Chancellor of, the Exchequer was not Chancellor tl:•ei
he would not, therefore, quote that gentlemao's opinion, but
he would quote the opinion stated by the Hon. Member for
Montrose (Mr. Hume), and that was, that railroads in Ireland
was the only cure for the evil, and he hoped that his vote would
this night be in accordance with his speech in 1839. This

was no transitory calamity passing over Ireland, to be cured in
seven or eight months. In his own neighbourhood he had
done all that he could to alleviate the evil.--( Hear, hear.)
But it should be remembered that the whole of the potato crop of
Ireland had been destroyed, and therefore it was that he
warned the House that some measures should be devised for
the relief of the people of Ireland, add unless they did devise
such measures, he was quite sure that the people Faust starve.
What was the condition of the landlords of Ireland?
Why that in the majority of the cases the rent was not
paid by onesfourth of the tenants ; that in half the cases there
was not one-sixth of the rent paid; and in many cases it was
an actual fact that the people who were oppressed were them-
selves more in need of relief than those who were on the list of
the guardians. He knew a nobleman, a landlord in the county
of Tipperary, whose annual rental was some 7,4001., but what
would the House think when he told them that that nobleman
had only received 5101 out of his 7,4001., being not 8 per
cent. of that which was legally due to him ? He told Hon.
Gentlemen in that House that the landlords in that country
with which he was connected, as well as in the county
next to it, had sold their houses, given up their
carriages, and devoted their time and their money to the
maintenance of the destitute poor in their localities ; they had
taxed themselves to the extent of 30s. in the pound on their
rental. In one barony in the county of Waterford, they had,
up to that peried, laid on themselves a burden of 30s. on their
average rental to meet the exigencies of the barony. He
knew three landlords in the same county who employed and
paid from their own resources upwards of 1,200 individuals,
and if Hon. Members doubted the fact, he would give the
names of these three gentlemen, although it was sometimes
unpleasant to do so in that House. And when Irish Members
were told, by the Hon. Member for Inverness, that the land-
lords of Ireland ought to have taken measures to borrow money
from the Government, as the landlords in the Highlands of
Scotland,:and in other places, had done, his ( Sir H. Barron's)
answer to that was, that he himself, and other Irish landlords,
had applied to the Board of Works for a portion of the million,
which had in a previous session been voted for the purposes
of draining; and what did the House think was the answer he
received from the Board ? Why, he got a post letter asking
him if he was a tenant for life, because, if he was, he need not
apply, as the Government had taken the opinion of the law
officers of the Crown, and the provisions of the measure did not
apply to such. Why, he told the House that eleven out of
every twelve proprietors in Ireland were tenants for life, and
therefore they did not get a single shilling out of the million
which had been so much talked about in that House and out
of it, and they were altogether thrown on their own resources.
That was the fair and honest answer to give to the Hon. Member
for Inverness. And now he might perhaps be allowed to say that
he regretted exceedingly the tone adopted by the Chancellor
of the Exchequer in regard to Irish landlords. He regretted
that tone most sincerely, because he thought it an improper
tone. to take with regard to Ireland ; he thought that her dis-
tresses and difficulties were great, and it peculiarly interested
the Government of this empire, the people, and this House, to
show their sympathy by giving their assistance to that country.
He would net dwell at any length on this point, but he hoped
that a sympathy of feeling would be evinced by her Majesty's
Government with the people of Ireland. The Chancellor of
the Exchequer had told them that this Bill was intended rather
for the relief of destitute shareholders than of the destitute poor
of Ireland. That might have been intended as a very good
antithesis—as an amusing way of putting the question—but it
was not consistent with the fact. The Bill was for the pur-
pose of giving assistance to the poor of Ireland. He believed
in his conscience that this was the objectof the Bill, and for
that reason he intended to vote for the second reading. Ile
( Sir H. W. Barron) had no connexion with the destitute
shareholders in Ireland, or any other shareholders, but the Bill
received his support because it was intended to give relief to
all classes in the country, from the highest peer to the hum.
bleat peasant. He knew that the landlords in Ireland had
come forward on this occasion in the most noble and generous
manner.—(Cries of " Question, question.") He thought it
right to state these things, because much had been said in that
House against the course pursued by the more wealthy classes
of Ireland. In the city of Waterford, the merchants, the
shopkeepers, and the residents of all degrees were doing their
duty nobly; they had not got the assistance of a shilling from
Government, and yet they had four relief committees at
work.--( Hear, hear.) He did not, however say, that the
landlords of Ireland had in every period of their country's
history done their duty so well; he admitted that absentee
landlords had grossly neglected their estates and forgotten the
interests of their tenantry. It became every man who retained
a feeling of humanity in his bosom to attend in his place and
to provide some means for the relief of the starving thousands
in Ireland ; this measure afforded hopes of doing so, and there-
fore he should give it all the support in his power, because in
thus acting he would be doing his duty to his constituents, his
country, and his God.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said—Sir, it is my wish to discuss
the proposal which has been brought forward by the Noble
Lord in a spirit and temper befitting the deep sense which I
entertain for the magnitude of the calamity under which
Ireland is now suffering, and the magnitude of that future
danger which is, I fear, impending over her.—( Cheers. ) Sir,
I understand the Noble Lord to bring forward this question in
a spirit free from all party feeling. I understand him to
bring it forward, not as a measure in hostile rivalry with
the proposal of her Majesty's Government, but as a
contribution suggested by the Noble Lord towards the mea-
sures that were deemed to be calculated to diminish the suffer-
ings of Ireland. Sir, in that spirit it is my intention to dis-
cuss it. lam the more inclined to do so, because the vote
which I shall give will be upon the merits of the question
founded, and will be influenced by the consideration of those
consequences which the Noble Lord indicated as the possible re-
sult of the measure. Sir, the proposal is, that the credit of the
country should be pledged to the amount of sixteen millions for
the purpose of providing employment for the poor of Ireland.
sir, the extent to which it is proposed so to engage the credit
of this country, justifies, and, in my opinion, necessitates some
reference to the financial condition and financial prospects of
the country. Sir, the financial condition of the country, judg-
ing from the last returns, made up to the beginning of Janu-
ary last., shows the financial condition of the country, no doubt,
to be in a prosperous state. It would appear from
those returns, that the amount of revenue received within the
year--not of course ending the sth of April, but on the sth of
January last—that the amount of revenue received within the
year far exceeded the estimate which was made by my Right
Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. That revenue
was partly derived, no doubt, from sources which my Right
Hon. Friend could not calculate, but, speaking generally of
the ordinary sources of revenue for the year ending on the Ist
of January last, the receipts were greater than the most sanguine
expectation could have anticipated.—( Hear, hear.) Sir, I
think my Right Hon. Friend calculated that the amount of
revenue for the year ending sth April, 1847, would be about
51,900,0004
Mr. GOULBURN-50,000,000/.

Sir R. PEEL—Yes, 50,900,0001.—that would be about
51,000,000/. The net receipts of the year ending the sth of
beingß an
excess Right igb
January last (being the receipts to the sth of January and not
the sthesstbtehanestsim3,
Wateo,ooT7., my
Honourable Friend.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") The
of of April,2,oo o, were
0001. not
upon l
balance in the Exchequer was not less than 9,000,0007.,
and the total amount of excess of revenue over expenditure
was, I think, about '2,800,060/. Se far, therefore, as the re-
ceipts and disbursements up to the present year are concerned,
the financial condition of the country is prosperous; but with
reference to the proposal of the Noble Lord, pledging the
country to the amount of 16,000,0001., the matter for our
consideration is rather the prospects of the coming year than
the results of the year that has past--(Hear, hear.) Sir,
the Noble Lord at the head of her Majesty's Govern-
ment, or the Chancellor of the Exchequer, will, upon
an early day, state to us the view which her Majesty's Govern-
ment take of the financial state of the country. Sir, I appre-
hend they can hardly calculate upon the receipts of the coming
financial year being greater, perhaps not so great, as the
receipts of the present year. It is hardly possible to con-
ceive that, considering the high price of provisions in the
country, considering the depressed state of manufactures, par-
ticularly in some great branches, considering the expected
high price of one of the great raw materials of manufactures--
I mean cotton—considering the effect which the high price
of provisions thoughout the whole continent of Europe,
and the high price of provisions in the United States of
America must produce upon the power of consumption in
ayrfdatoteole
ratevaethrpro,h:intbsaewtsyty:i
sense
niwsfsapasaethionyt
responsibility
01
estimate,s;
slfifobjric ap:olihavetsuntmhtybaienfipi
believe
lecceaetdei oli
with
complaint
is
vaseayte.,nci calculaterepoasvnucasetbtithrttuelhnai
estimates,
different quarters of Europe and America—it is hardly possi-
ble for us to believe that this concurrence of untoward circum-
stances will not materially affect the revenue. Sir, as to the
upon no ordinary expenditure. I believe, in respect to the
, memelod:ffofoaienpal
mni
affairs. But
contrary,
ytttt uleaatkßlsquarrel
ih,stataehi,
ready
thwychi
raritteetdulohsdttpitherefore,
naval,netneai
egetorthuen
there will be an addition of not less than 400,000/. 1
no Goverment would propose an increased estimate
Increase proposed of 400,0007., while I cannot anticipate that
there will be any reduction in the miscellaneous estimates. I
apprehend that there will be an additional expenditure on the
charge of debt, and thus the ordinary annual expenditure will
considerably exceed the expenditure of the present.—( Hear,
hear.) Then, Sir, with respect to the future. I
am prepared to expect an increase on account of the
necessary expenses, for the purpose of doing that which I
am prepared and ready to do, namely, for the purpose of miti-
gating those horrors which at present overwhelm Ireland.—
( Hear, hear.) lam prepared to consent to a full expenditure
—so a noeral expenditure—to errors ru into count, y in common
with the other relief, but I anticipate that the necessary result
will be this—it will cause a considerable deficit, comparing
the revenue of next year with the necessary expenditure. Sup.
posing this terrible calamity had not fallen upon Ireland, it is
possible that the Noble Lord might have been enabled to esti-
mate some considerable excess of revenue, but if the amount
of expenditure required for Ireland should at all approach the
sum that has been estimated by the Noble Lord, namely, some
9, or possibly 11 millions, it is still highly probable that there
will be, on the sth of April, 1848, a deficit of not less than
7 or 8 millions, comparing the actual expenditure with the
receipts. But, I believe, you will have to follow up that ex-
penditure by a large and liberal expenditure, to enable the
people of Ireland to lay the foundation of a better food than
that upon which they have hitherto existed.—(Hear, hear.)
Our great object, therefore, will be in having proceeded,
by absolute necessity to meet the present emergency to con-
sider minutely what those measures will be. I hope they
will be conceived in a wise, and candid, and liberal spirit,'
such as shall lay the foundation of that social regeneration so far
as the sustenance of the people is concerned.—(Hear, hear.)
Looking at these measures and exertions on the part of the
Government and the country, considering the great expendi-
ture that will be required, and considering that, to meet the
present emergency, it will require a sum of not less than seven
or eight millions, it is hardly possible that the future finan-
cial condition of the country can be gratifying.—( Hear,
hear.) Now, with these financial prospects before
us, let us just inquire what is the present and
probable future state of the money-market. That inquiry
may possibly excite a smile, but I use the term money-market
in the sense that means neither more nor less than what are
public wants.—( Hear, hear.) It is
purpose of supplying
public should contract another loan for the
roposed that the .
measure. It will be a burden upon the
purpose of a certainnbe
provided for in some way or other by
the terms upon which the public can borrow money for the
people which must _
ar
e Cents., which a short time since
Three-and-a-Half per.
,hear.) Well then, 1 find that the
which were, even a short time ago, as
presentpar,
not more than 91/. Calculating
high as 1001., are at
ot' the last six or seven months, that
that price with those
not less than 4 or 5 per cont. So much for
shows a depression of
Let
us now look to the unfunded debt. I
funded property.
Exchequer-bills that they are at a
find in in the case of the
1 some 55. premium. Now, of course,
count, or at all events,
on
Yarket is a most material considera-
the state of the money-
pv;ebrleicatsencoutrlietises't.h—an( ti
f to the prospects of the country
again, with respect
.
affairs. It was given out
its foreign
in relation .to
the first day of the session, that
by her Majesty, on
still continued, and was likely to continue,
this country
with the foreign Powers of Europe. I
on terms of amity
announcement with great satisfaction, but my con-
fidenceheard that bshaken b-•• recollecting the discus-
• it was somew at Been this
.
tion in discussing the jmuestion of the Noble Lord. Then,
in
questionplae ; and the remembrance that it was
upon a certain
announced th.lt three other great Powers in
, at the same timem
tted a
ma.
ifest violation ot good faith to-
Europe had com t 6 between this and another great country
lat 911., and Exchequer-bills
le Lord calls upon
Now, i a this state of things, the Funds
bills scarcely bearing premiums, the
us to authorise her Majesty's
Governmentol' to sanction contracts shichN are to spread
swioannisswthhiicshcotounktry.

ver four years, that may amount to 16,000,0001.—( Hear.)
I know of no other mode for providing for this assumed defi-
ciency, except by a vigorous effort—by direct taxation—
( Hear, hear)—visited on all parts of the United Kingdom—
(Heir, hear)---or by the issue of Exchequer-bills in this
doubtful state of the public revenue, or the contraction of a
loan to the amount required, engendering possibly a direct
taxation in order to provide for the interest of that loan. I
give no opinion whatever on the policy of adopting the alter-
native course. But suppose the financial Minister considered
it right to risk the loan upon Exchequer-bills, I am
compelled to ask, would it be advisable to increase the difficulty
of his financial position by entering into engagements to the
amount of 16,000,000/., to be spread over a period of four
years? Sir, I must totally and entirely differ front those who
contend that you can pledge the public credit of the country
for the purpose of promoting commercial enterprise without
subjecting the country to any risk of loss. (Hear,
hear.) Why, the Noble Lord may find it absolutely ne-
cessary to provide also four millions of money in the
present year to meet the emergency of the time;
and, depend upon it, you will at once so surcharge
the money market, that there must be a positive addition made
to the interest paid upon Exchequer-bills.—( Hear, hear. )
What is the public credit of the country ? Why it is a part of
the national property—it is one of the elements of our financial
strength, and you cannot appropriate any portion of that credit
to the encouragement of commercial enterprise without weak-
ening your power to apply the same principle in eases of emer-
gency. It is quite impossible that the contrary should be
the case, and, therefore, I say that the application of
the national credit is very much the same in principle as the
application of direct taxation.—(Hear, hear.) Every appli-
cation of the public credit engenders a necessity of an in-
creased taxation, and renders you less able to make a great
exertion when necessary ; and therefore it does become abso-
lutely necessary to consider whether the application of sixteen
millions of money is required for the purpose of meeting the
present calamity and averting the future danger of Ire-
land, and whether the gain is equal to the risk
we run from such an application. If I understand
the Bill, it is this, it enables the Treasury to advance, for the
next four years, a sum, the maximum of which is sixteen
millions; it does not impose any obligation that the whole sum
is to be levied at the same time, but twelve millions may be
levied in four years, and the remainder when the Railway
Commissioners might desire. This advance of sixteen
millions was not limited to railways that had absolutely
received the sanction of Parliament; but supposing,
after the investigation of the Railway Commissioners,
there should be found only a sufficient extent of works
to demand the application of twelve millions, you must not
infer that the Treasury is limited to advance only the
12,000,000/.; power is given in the Bill to the Treasury to ad-
vance the other four if Parliament should give its sanction to
any other projects. It is not that the Treasury is liable to ad-
vance the motley, but as I read the Bill, there is no dissection
given to withold it, provided that the Railway Commissioners
certify that the project is likely to afford employment, and be
beneficial to the country. The power which was invested in
that department was taken away, and placed in the hands of
Hon. Gentlemen who might be railway shareholders. It was
certainly a novel principle to make the Treasury of the country,
with respect to the advance of sixteen millions in the course of
four years a mere instrument destitute of power, and to transfer
it to a body in no way responsible, and in no way interested
in economising the expenditure of the country. It certainly
was a novel principle to introduce. What ! to divest the Trea-
sury of its power, and make it a mere instrument in the hands
of Railway Commissioners, compelled to advance the public
money on the certificate of those Commissioners, which was
not even very stringent in its provisions. as the Treasury
should find the money if the certificate ran thus,—" That the
effect of the railway would be beneficial to the public, and likely
to afford public employment." It is not to be that there is
any certainty of repayment—(Hear, hear)—and on receiving
that certificate, the financial department of the country has no
option, but must'at once proceed to raise the required amount.
Now, as to the prospect of repayment, it was generally
assumed that at the end of thirty years they would obtain their
money back again. But observe that there was no providing
in the Bill which insisted on the borrowing company provisions
for the gradual repayment of the loan. Last year—l allude to
the Drainage Bill—we advanced money at a very low rate of
interest, at three-and-a-half per cent., but we provided that
the borrower should instantly commence to repay the
principal at not less than six-and-a-half per cent.
But by the present Bill the borrower could do so at three per
cent., and is not required to repay any portion until the expira-
tion of thirty years. Well, even at that remote period—
(A laugh)—have you a certain prospect of getting back any
portion of it ? By no meant; for there is a clause in
the Bill which provides that the time can be extended.
The measure, I admit, is as* free from objection as that for
making roads, or administering relief; and it was not on that
account that I have considered it right to oppose it. The Hon.
Gentleman who sits near me (Mr. Hudson) takes a particular
pride in that part of the Bill which pays off mortgages on the
railways which are now existing.—(Laughter.) The first
part of the measure pays off three debts.—(Laughter.)
(Mr. Hudson here observed that it was only intended to
pay off the private debts. )—But, says the Hon. Gentleman,
this will make the coast clear if they pay off the private debts.—
( Laughter.) I understand, therefore, that the first application
of the money to be advanced from the Treasury would be to
pay off the creditors of the railways, even though they were not
holders of shares. —)Laughter.) Some railway companies were
at present borrowing money at 5 per cent. (Mr. Hudson re-
marked that the Great Western Company only paid 41 per
cent.) The Hon. Gentleman says—See what I have done ;
look at the state of the money-market. I have been able to
raise a capital of ten millions within three or four months.
But, he says, don't suppose that I have a share in any Irish
railway. 1 have no interest whatever in any Irish railway.—
(Laughter.) Is it not a fact, however, that a great portion
of the shareholders in Irish railways were Englishmen?—
( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Lynn said," See what
an enormous profit the construction of Irish railways will
be to the English railways. Can it be supposed that a railway
with a terminus in Waterford, Drogheda, or Dublin, will be of
no use to English railways ?" But if this undoubted and
enormous profit to English railways be the consequence of the
construction of Irish railways, on what ground do they now
come forward and ask Government for assistance ?—(Cheers. )
Suppose they are deriving 10 per cent. on the railways in this
country, and that an extraordinary increase of profit is ex-
pected on the completion of the Irish railways, why do they ask
money at 3/ per cent. for which they ought to pay five or
6 per cent.?—( Cheers.) Was not that a clear gain of 21,4 per
cent., or 25,0001. on every 1,000,000/.?—( Cheers.) If that be
the case, then do not say it is merely pledging the public credit;
it is a direct bonus on Irish railways.—(Cheers.) I, there-
fore, am of opinion that no claim whatever has been established
for Government assistance. Even if they were not sharehold-
ers in these railways, they would have no right to claim Go-
vernment assistance for an undertaking which they stated pos-
sessed so many clear and undoubted evidences of intrinsic profit.
—(Hear, hear.) If the statements be true which had been
made, they were an inducement to English shareholders to come
forward and embark their capital in these railways, and my
Honourable Friend (Mr. Hudson) should come forward
liberally, and head the list.—( Cheers and laughter.) But if,
notwithstanding all these objections, it be a great measure,
calculated as the Noble Lord (I3entinck) says, to encourage
industrial enterprise in Ireland—calculated as a great instru-
ment to work out the social amelioration of the condition of
that country—l ant not disposed to be diverted from the attain-
ment of such desirable results by the financial difficulties that
may be its accompaniment ; but it is because I have a doubt
that neither the advantages predicted, nor a considerable
portion of them, will result from the adoption of the measure,
cud that the financial difficulties to which I have adverted will
aertainly be its attendant, that has decided the vote which I
shall give to-night.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Member for
Shrewsbury has alluded to the mistakes of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, and has endeavoured to show the great mistakes
made by the Right Hon. Gentleman ; but I think there was one
mistake into which he himself fell. The Honourable
Gentleman was referring to the inferiority of Ireland
to England, and was stating what a strange contrast
there existed between the currency of Scotland and Ireland.
I consider that as a most fallacious test of the prosperity of the
country. It has been the evil of Scotland that it has not
increased its circulation. I believe that no country in the
world has made more rapid advances than Scotland has,
and yet by looking at the comparison of the amount
of the present currency with what it was thirty years since,
it would bu found as., r-, •• - - ;•-•
opposition to the arguments of the Hon. Member for Shrews-
bury. The Hon. Member stated that in Ireland the amount of
notes in circulation averaged only 1/. per head, whereas in
Scotland it was equal to 161. per head.
Mr. DISRAELI—No, no.
Sir R. PEEL—This showed the necessity for indulgence
on the part of lion. Members in alluding to speeches pre-
viously delivered. I certainly understood the Hon. Member
to say that the allowance for Scotland was at the rate of 16/. 111
per head.
Mr. DISRAELI—Not of currency.
Sir R. PEEL—Then I have mistaken the statentents of the
Hon. Member. I have not the slightest wish to misquote the ex-
pressions of any Hon. Member.—( Hear. ) I was going, however,
to advert to that which is, after all, the main test of the pros
perity of a nation. The Hon. Member for Shrewsbury says
that he admits the truth of the abstract doctrine, that it is
better to leave commercial enterprise free of all State inter-
ference. I think that doctrine is not only practically sure, but,
in the case of England, I think it is also perfectly practicable.
The prospect of commercial gain is alone the feeling which
influences the conduct or enters into the views of Ste specu-
lator s near, near)—he calculates upon a certain amount of
profit, and the number of men whom he has to employ ;
these and other considerations it is which induce him to de.
termine whether he shall speculate in a certain enterprise or
riot. The doctrine of non-interference is not only perfectly
true, but also perfectly applicable. But the Hon. Member for
Shrewsbury says that those doctrines are not perfectly appli-
cable in a country like Ireland, because, there, political con•
siderations overpower commercial speculations. The State
has misgoverned Ireland, and, therefore, the State should in-
terfere in commercial enterprise.—( Hear, hear.) That is an
argument I wish to protest against. I do not think it is for
the advantage of Ireland that political considerations should
overpower those considerations. I have heard several speeches
from Hon Members who have addressed the House in favi.ur of
the measure, and, from those speeches, I am convinced that if
the statements made by those Hon. Members be true, then
they are such as should induce the Irish landlords to encourage,
from their own resources, the commerce of the country.—
( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the Member for Lynn said,
" Complete the Irish railroads, complete the 1,500 miles
of railroads, and see what will be the benefit to the Irish land-
lords. The land upon every square mile adjoining the railway
will be improved, every acre within the vicinity of that rail
way will be improved by a positive addition to the value of the
rental, taking it at the lowest estimate of 10s. per acre. The
whole number of acres so improved in the annual rental of
10s. will amount to 1,900,0001. ; and this increase
of rental would cause in the purchase price of the land an ad-
dition of 23,000,0001." derived
by If this, then, is the profit to be
by the Irish landlords by the construction of these
Have I not
railways,
,whty
do they not make these railroads?—(Cheers.)
right to call upon the Irish landowners in the vicinity of these
railways, to give every facility to an enterprise,
the sum mwz
bene-
ficialfrom the
a effects which they are to derive
Now, with reference to the Galway fisheri i
essa,id of ."3,00
the
. p pent ft
pl e-
b e r for Stamford (the Marquis of Granby)
of Galway could go out in their boattos, ant bring on their return
with them a quantity of herrings
said thehe,
what a benefit it would
value of 4,0001., the
produce of a single night; and,
be to the Irish people, if they
were enabled to take their fish to
other parts of the country by means of railways, and dispose of
lay
it at once, instead of having to idle for three or four nights,
and losing fish to the value of 4,000/. on each night. Are not
these,
then, considerations of great commercial importance, and
should not the Irish landowner s embark their property in such
valuable undertakings? Their land will be improved, and
profitable fisheries will be encouraged.
Mr. HUDSON—They have got no money.
Sir R. PEEL—The Hon. Member for Sunderland says they
have got no money. Why, there is the same power that raised
10,000,0001. a few weeks since. —( Cheers). If these railways are
so beneficial, what is the reason that British capital is not in-
vested in them ?—( Cheers.) The Hon. Member for Shrews-
bury says that political considerations have overwhelmed the or-
dinary commercial considerations, and that the shareholders of
Ireland find a great difficulty in obtaining possession of the
land, in consequence of the complicated nature of
the title to the land. Then I would say, simplify the
means of obtaining the titles to land in that country.—
, (Cheers.) It has been proved that it is to the interest of the
landowners to give their land for the purpose of making these
railways, and I meet that objection of the great difficulties the
Irish companies: have to contend with in obtaining possession

of the land, by advising, with the hearty consent of the lands;
owners themselves, the adoption of some measure to facilitate
the purchase of land upon fair and equitable terms.—(Cheers.)
Nothing is more easy than for you to do that. You have al-
ready done it one case—the case of the Shannon navigation.
In that case the claims have been left to the decision of the
just,
and Commissioners. Their awards have been so
and made in so fair a spirit, that not a single appeal has
been made against their decision. The same principle
is carried out in France and Belgium, and I earneetly hope
that some measure will be adopted for the purpose o!
simpli-
fying the titles to property in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Wel2,
then, it has been said that political er religious differnl. ces
would prevent the people acting in concert in the formation of
.
these works of utility. They should be invited to take part
in the concerns of their common country, and all these
religious and political animosities will pass away
.when they
find that it is their interest and their duty to combine together
to enconrage these works, and to discourage all those party
feelings and religious animosities.—(Cheers.) But let the .
people suppose that they can do nothing for themselves, and
that the Government is prepared to do everything for threes
these animosities will continue to prevent the elViii-
sation of the capital and energies of the people
,to the promotion of works of commercial enterprise'
Thus they will obtain double advantages by leaving those
works to be constructed by the means of individual enterprise,
and, at the same time, encouraging great social improvements
among, the people. The lion. Gentleman the Member for
Shrewsbury called upon the State to make those railways;
but what advantages were to accrue in return ? There is, he
said, a field of coal at Mallow more extensive than any coal-field
in operation in England. " Make a railway," he said, " and not
five years will elapse before that field of coal will be explored,
and its produce carried along the line proposed to be con-
structed to various parts of Ireland. It would be transported
to Dublin, and to the other large consuming towns in the
country." He said further, that it would be found as important
and lucrative a coal-field as any in England. But why do
political considerations overpower commercial consideratiovs ?
Why do not men of capital, and men of sense, estimate the
probable produce of that coal-field, and calculate' what amount
of toll would be received for the transmission of that produce
over the line ?—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman also said
that the fisheries will receive a new stimulus--that new resi-
dents will be brought into the country, and that the trade of
the country will be increased. But why are not all these results
still obtained by the commercial instead of political enterprise?
1 firmly believe, that if you de not overpower Irish enterprise
by the application of English capital by Government interfer-
ence, I firmly believe, that at no remote period, that those
works will be carried out by the enterprise of the country.—
( Hear, hear.) If I really believed the financial condition of
the country would permit it, and that it would be decidedly for
the advantage of Ireland, a great part of my objections
would be removed, but I have most serious doubts
that if you fetter Irish enterprise by the applica-
tion of English capital, as proposed in the Noble
Lord's Bill, Ido doubt very much whether it would be for the
benefit of the Irish people.—( Hear, hear.) Yet, I admit that
there have been interferences by the State for the purpose of
promoting public works. In the last year, when I was the
First Lord of the Treasury, I consented to advance some
money to an Irish railway on the same principle upon which
advances for commercial purposes are made. I ate not at al/
prepared to say whether, owing to this calamity which has
visited Ireland, that it would be unwise under certain restric-
tions, and under certain guarantees for the repayment of the
advances, to make such loans.—(Cheers from Lord George
Bentinck.) But the extent and encouragement which.
the Noble Lord proposes to give, will, I believe,
not be so beneficial to the country, arid to the
districts through which the lines would pass, as he
anticipates ; and, moreover, will not give such tan-
gible security as we have a right to expect. The only security
that you have is, in cases of default, the seizure of the railway.
—(Cheers.) If the shareholders in those lines to which ad-
vances have been made refuse to contribute their share of the
money borrowed, or the interest upon' it, you have no other
option than to take possession of the railway, and finish it at
the public expense (Hear) —or in a case of absolute
failure, you have no remedy against the shareholders.
The remedy is not against the shareholders, but against the
old iron rails.—(Laughter.) In speaking thus, I am stating
the views which I have long held. lam not adverse to the
occasional application of capital for the purpose of encouraging
enterprise both in this country and in Ireland.—(Cheers.)
What I sincerely deprecate is such supposed encouragement as
shall prevent individual enterprise, and those who ought to rest
upon individual enterprise, by such an interference as shall pa-
ralyse that enterprise, by rendering it valueless, and conse-
quently inoperative, as I think the advance which any such sum
as that proposed by the Government, whose interference would
be carried to some extent as to its application, could not have
any other effect than that of paralysing individual enterprise.
Sir, I know the Noble Lord will say that myestimate is incorrect;
that 7,000,0001. will be required, independently of the capital
proposed to be expended by his measure for the relief of the
distress in Ireland, under the powers of the Bill already passed
by this House, as his measure, by finding, employment for the
people, will reduce the necessity of making such large advances.
Now, admitting in the first place, the men who will be employed
are generally Irishmen, and not Englishmen from this country,
yet 1 greatly doubt whether the passing of the Bill of the Noble
Lord would immediately diminish that expenditure which wilt
be absolutely necessary for the relief of the destttue. Now I
hold in ray hand a map of the railways which have received the
sanction of Parliament, of those which have been completed, and
of those in the course of execution. By this map it appears that
it verifies the observation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
who, speaking generally, said that railways were sanctioned by
Parliament mainly for the east coast. I only find two, of com-
paratively small extent, passing to the westward. The first is
from Sligo to the Shannon, the capital of which is, I think,
100,000/ ; and the second from Limerick, through Killaloe to
Ennis, the capital of which was 300,000/. But, with respect
to the west, there are no Bills for the construction of railways
through it, except one in the county of Clare; nor in Donegal,
Roscommon, Leitrim, Sligo (with the exception of that small
railway for which the estimate was 100,0001. ), Mayo, Galway,
Clare (with the exception of the railway from Limerick to
Ennis), and through a great part of the county of Limerick.
But no provision would be made for the employment of the
destitute persons in the immediate neighbourhood of the line
which would be made. In the returns read the other evening
by the Hun. Gentleman, it appeared that the persons who
would be employed on railways were those residing in the im-
mediate neighbourhood of the lines. If that be so, first of all,
the removal of men from Connaught to work at the lines
would take him away from his family, and that would be a great
misfortune, if they numbered as many as ten. That is no
small evil. Who would provide for their sustenance during his
absence? Certainly it would net do away with demands on the
Government from the west, which would still be heavy notwith-
standing the employment which would he given under the Noble
Lord's Bill. I was saying that I have for a long period enter-
tained sincere doubts whether you might not carry Govern-
ment interference too far, so far as to injure commercial enter-
prise. Now, I wish the House could be fully aware of the
history of the inland navigation of Ireland. Inland navigation
in Ireland was promoted and encouraged by the Government.
It is necessary that I should refer to this point, although I may
trespass a short time longer on the attention of the House,
and I thank the House for the attention with which it has
listened to me.—(Loud cheers.) I wish to present to the
House the contrast between enterprise encouraged and
fostered by the Government, and enterprise undertaken
under every difficulty and discouragement, and what was
taken for individual gain by individual enterprise.
The Irish Parliament greatly encouraged and fostered
inland navigation. What were the grounds on which public
aid was granted? Exactly the same on which we are asked to
give the enormous public aid sought by this Bill.--(Loud
cheers.) By the 23d of George 11., a corporation was ap-
pointed to carry on inland navigation. What was intended to
be done? To take a canal directly across Ireland, in the con-
fident hope that the returns would be most enormous—so enor-
mous that the prosperity of Ireland would be promoted, and it
would have been most beneficial if it had been left in the hands
of individual shareholders. I3y this Act of Parliament it was
stated " that these works of inland navigation, being for the
public benefit, by encouraging tillage, and giving employ-
ment to the poor, it is fit and reasonable that they should be
carried on at the charge of the kingdom, by grants from
the public funds." In 1787, then, it was found that the works
had progressed so badly, that it was decided that they would
not ultimately prove advantageous to the company. It was
- -t- eranting public money was perilous and
abortive. The °ulcers wt., ,
+l-1- Act at
salaries as large as 5001. to superintend and control the worsts,
but the result of their management was that they made two
canals running parallel to each other.—(Hear, and laughter.)
The lion. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer re-
ferred to the wo canals—the Royal and the Great Canal,
the original estimate for the first of which was, I think, 180,0001.
The circumstances of the canal caused an inquiry to be made
in 1811. Now what was the position in which this canal, sup-
ported and fostered by public money, was found ? Why we
found that 186,000/. of the public money had been granted,
though the original capital was stated to be only 190,00,1.--
(Hear, hear.) And while the Government had advanced
186,0001., it appeared that 182.000/., had been expended
otherwise. The increase was 15,000/., while the mainte-
nance of the permanent works was 11,000/., leaving only
4,0001. to cover the whole debt and expenditure of the corn-
pany.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") This was a work
which was stated at the time to be a great national
undertaking, yet the unfortunate results I have given
are the fruits of the company being fostered by the Government.
The company to which I have referred, at the very time it was
in this state, made dividends without any profits, and even
when they were obliged to pay not only the interest on their
debt, but also their present expenses, by fresh leans.—( Hear,
hear.) The same results have been shown in the case of the
Caledonian Canal as what I have shown in the present case.
Both the Caledonian as well as the Royal Canals were great
national undertakings, yet at the very time., I have referred to,
the latter company told me, as I was then Secretary of Ireland,
that unless they could get 100,0001. more, their whole affairs
would go to ruin.—( Hear, hear. ) Parlianaent grantedthe canal
50,000/. more, which was added to the 182,0001., making a total
sum advanced of 232,000e—(Cries of " Hear, hear")—but
what is the present position of the company I cannot say ; but
since then I trust its affairs have been under better manage-

merit. This is the rernlt of Government interference:—
( Hear, hear.) Sir, I cannot leave this part of the subject
without adverting to what has appeared in the admirable re-
port of the late Mr. Drummond, in much bf which I agree;
anticipating as it did many of the improvements and suggestions
since made in that report, in which is given the results of the
Government interference in the Royal Canal. There is also an
account of the indomitable efforts and enterprise
all
o
theesounth:
vidual within the last twenty years in suppiying
the south-west, and many other parts of Ireland, with means of
internal communication. This account affords a contrast. be-
tween the results of a scheme like the present underconsictera-
tion, fostered by the Government, and those of individual en-
terprise. The one to which I refer, is the establishment of a
regular system of cars between the provincial towns of Ireland.
The Hon. Member read an extract from the report in
question. It set out with stating, that about twenty years
ago, while there were coaches in a few of the leading roads of
Ireland, the cross-roads and small towns had no convenience.
The country was in this state until an individual took it up—
an individual who had no advantages from connexion with the
country—no great capital or influence. He was a foreigner—
an Italian, a native of Milan, who could not c,en speak the
li
language of the country. Signor anconi tried first with one
car, which he started between Clonmel and Clare. He had no-
thing but his industry and
forhe
integrity to depend on for success—
but these were sulEcient,uoon increased his number of
cars until he had established
he
, them all over the province
From
of Munster.extended them into Leitrim and
Sligo, and throughout Connaught generally, until they occu-
pied all the north-west parts of the kingdom. He had now
ninety-four public conveyances, and the distance which they
in
travelled exceeded three thousand —(Cheers.)
These results had been achieved in districts which were theloci
of agrarian disturbance in districts where life and property were
nut secure, where party processions and religious feelings
ran high. Notwithstanding this state of things, M. Biancoai
had carried out his system everywhere without hindrance or
disturbance, and was popular wherever he went. In the face
of the greatest difficulties had individual enterprise succeeded ;
he established himself securely in those foci of agrarian outrage,
where life and property were not secure, and when there was
every discouragement to the enterprise in which he had em.
barked. His confidence had net been abused. By just and
active exertions he had succeeded, and was not only safe, but
popular with all classes of the people.—(Elear, hear.) This,
continued the Right Hon. Baronet, is a contrast to the cases
that have gone before to the schemes fostered by Government
support. By the exertion of individual enterprise, this
foreigner, who did not understand the language of the country,