The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-05 00:00:00

ej. •

'the Irish people, they would be trending money that
would never bo repaid, were scandatlous calumniators.—
(Cheers.) lle had forgotton to stat&ethat, originally his
'ntention was to propose that the repayment of the money
should commence seven years aftera ceri-XcatesTiould
be signed that the railway was in ofbratfoli, to the
whole to be paid from that time hi instalments, running
to the end of twenty years. When, however, the interest
and profit of money was paid, to all intents and purposes,
the debt did not exist, and, therefore, it did not matter
' when the money was repaid, or how long it took to repay
it; but upon consulting with the monied interest, he was
told that the repayment of the money by instalments would
create confusion in the dividends, and therefore it would
to much more advisable if it were specified that the
money should be repaid in thirty years.—(Hear, hear.)
He had heard at different times that there was danger of
outrage in Ireland. They had heard a story oftentimes
repeated, and as often refuted, that the peasantry were
buying arms, with which to rise up in rebellion. He,
for one, denied it, When he read accounts of ten bodies
out of eleven persons, lying dead in one house—of dogs
and swine wallowing over their dead bodies—of the
dead being denied the common decencies of a burial, to
save the price of the coffin to sustain the living—ho
could not help expressing his surprise that they had.
been so long patient.—(Cheers.) He could blame them.
not ; and so far from expressing discontent at anything
they might have done under their long suffixing, he
said let them rather fill the bellies of the starving Irish
people with good meat—wholesome mutton, good bread,
good strong beer—and fill their pockets with Eng-
lish gold. Let them assist to cover their beds with the
blankets of Witney—to clothe the men with the fustians
of Manchester—their wives and daughters with the
cotton prints of Stockport, and ribbons of Coventry, and
with his head he could answer for the loyalty of the
Irish people.—(Cheers.)

Lord JOHN RUSSELL had no hesitation in offering his
Noble Friend opposite the tribute of his praise for the feeling
he had exhibited in bringing forward this motion, and the
ability he had displayed in the statement he had made to the
House, as well as the zeal which he had shown for the people
of Ireland. But while he did not hesitate to pay that tribute to
his Noble Friend, and approved of the principle of his measure,
he must say that his plan was one to which he (Lord John
Russell) could not agree to adopt, and that his proposition was
not one that her Majesty's Government would have brought
forward. He could assure his Noble Friend that he felt
the expressions that had been uttered by him, and that his
plan was not rejected from any petty feeling of its not
having been a measure of Government, for no such conside-
ration would have induced him to refrain from adopting it.
The fact was, that the plan which his Noble Friend brought for-
ward, though not exactly what he proposed, had been sometime
under the consideration of her Majesty's Government. They
were obliged to look at it in quite a different aspect. In considering
such a plan it was requisite to be certified that such was suited
to the general state of Ireland. The Commissioners of Woods
and Forests had brought forward a plan with respect to rail-
ways in Ireland which they thought calculated to benefit the
country; but. that plan contemplated railways to be under the
direction of Government in all its departments. This would
have been most excellent, and have been preferable to the
Titan in this country, as giving a most desirable control over
the works to be constructed. But that was not the plan of his
Noble Friend.—(Hear, hear.) In the course of late
years there had been lines passed for Ireland which would
require 1500,0001., and therefore any plan of Noble Friend
was not particularly required. Besides there were other rail-
ways proposed.—( Hear hear.) Morever, it was not desirable
for Government to step out of its usual department, and to
favour, as this measure proposed to do, companies, or sets- of
companies, who should set on foot railways. He would call
the attention of the Home to one circumstance in connexion
with the subject. The North British Railway was at a pre-
mium of 40 per cent., while the Midland South
Western (Ireland) was at a discount. If Govern-
ment acted in the way proposed it would be a
departure from these -functions, an •i be favouring certain
parties to the detriment of others. But the present case as
brought rests its merits,• he. (Lord John Russell) though,,
upon its application to the present distress in Ireland. It was.
therefore, with a view to the distress of Ireland, that they
were to look at the question.—( Hear, hear.) Some two
mouths ago certain railway companies had met in Dublin,
and made re, resentations to the Lord Lieutenant, which were
transmitted to him ( Lord J. Russell.) These were to the effect that
supposing by the Railway Act of 1846, fifteen millions were
required in order to execute the works, that Government,
'hould advance five millions, and they would advance ten mil-
lions. They (the Government) then stood in the position of
having before them the expenditure of a large sum of money,
in a grant from the Exchequer, for alleviating the distress in
Ireland. They could not say there was a boundless mine at
their disposal. They were bound to see how they
could meet the immediate distress, and seeing that that which
was the most pressing was the want of food, and that, toe, in
the remotest districts of the country. Now, the application of
money for.railways did not apply to that particular oldect.—
( Hear, hear.) It was certainly true that railways were valu-
able to the country.—( Hear, hear.) Without entering into
the calculations of his Noble Friend, particularly when he had
such able assistants as Mr. Lamb and Mr. Stephenson,
the question they had to consider was, how the application of a
large sum of money from the Treasury was to relieve a cer-
tain number of persons pressed by eistress. They must see,
if that was likely to be carried out by these railways. He
( Lord John Russell) had examined certain deputations from
railway companies. and be ascertained that the first thing
they did was to go to a contractor over whom they bad no
control. That contractor had a sub-contractor intervening,
who was to supply the men, and in 'the selection it was con-
ditioned, that when men had been employed for some weeks
they were to have Is. 6d. a day. Now, it was evident that
this contractor would engage only the most able-bodied men
at the time when wanted, and at the place where their
services might be of benefit. If there was a place where there
was great distress, bat where there was nothing to do, there
would be no relief afforded. It was the business of
those contractors to employ only the persons whose labour was
well worth the money. It appeared to him, therefore, that the
proposition of relieving that distress by employment by railways in
Ireland, was not the most efficient means of meeting the dis-
tress. By the plan proposed, the railways would pass through
the north and east, where there was least distress ; therefore
railway labour would not apply to those parts of the country
most peculiarly distressed, and to which their attention ought
to be first directed. This subject had been under the con-
sideration of the former Government, and from the com-
munications that had passed between that Government
and parties interested ba the question, it was evident
that they were not favourable to the question. No doubt
they were influenced by the same motives as they
(the present Government) were. His Noble Friend's
(Lord G. Bentinck's) calculations might be generally
correct; but he did think he could hardly imply that
there would be such a duration of employment as
he had stated to the House that evening. For instance, he
had said that 1,500 miles of railway would employ 60,000
men ; but it should be remembered that every year the num-
ber of miles would be diminished. The greatest distress, how-
ever, existed in the south and west of Ireland, and therefore
the larger portion, that required it most, could derive no be-
nefit from the extension of these works. It was proposed to give
to those 580,000 persons the means of buying the food
they required; but in Let, as at present, when there was so
great a pressure on the poor rates, they would not be doing
justice unless they employed them in useful works. He (Lord
J. Russell) agreed generally that the establishment of railways
in Ireland would be of great benefit, nor did he think that
public assistance ought altogether to be withheld. But he
did not think it would be wise to devote sixteen millions to
railways. He did not wish to enter further into the question
of railways. He would not oppose the bringing
in of the Bill. When he said he did not oppose
the introduction of that Bill, let his Noble Friend understand,
in order that he might not afterwards be accused of deception,
that when the Bill went into Committee, that he would adopt
any line he thought Government ought to adopt, if they
thought fit to refuse their consent to its being carried. He
did not wish to be understood as giving any favourable opinion
with respect to the course he would pursue when the Bill
should go into Committee.—( Hear, and cheers. )
Mr. B. OSBOIt N E came there that evening prepared to
support the Noble Lord's motion. He thought the Noble
Lord who had given his voice against the Bill had not acted
fairly, in allowing the Bill to be printed, and then opposing it
in Committee. Now, the Hon. Member for Lynn was enti-
tled to greater praise than any other Member, for having brought
forward a great measure for the redemption of the country.
The Noble Lord at the head of the Government, although he
said that the subject of Irish railways had been under their
consideration, did not say that he was prepared to bring in
any measure on the subject. The Noble Lord concluded his
speech by contradicting the very first proposition with which
he commenced his speech. He said that e.e did not think it
fair to advance so much money for the purposes of railways,
because it would interfere with private enterprise, and then he
concluded by saying that at a future time the state might per-
haps render some assistance to the railways. The Irish
people expected that the Government had been put in their
places not to filch little schemes from individual Members of
the House—a suggestion as to the poor-law from one lion.
Member, soup kitchens from a Quaker, anal so on. They
ought to come forward and adopt some bold and com-
prehensive plan, like that suggested by the Noble Lord the
Member for Lynn. lie would not sit down without expressirg
his great admiration for the great tales t displayed by him iu
the very able and practical speech which he had delivered that
evening.—( Cheers. )
Mr. ROEBUCK was quite surprised at the course pursued
by the Noble Lord at tee head of the Government. He said
the' there were instinerable objections to the measure of the
Noble Lord the Member for Lynn, and yet he had allowed the
Bill to be introduced air, read a first time, reserving to himself
the liberty to oppose it in some futtire stages. He (Mr.
Roebuck) objected to the scheme in limbic., and he would tell
the House why he objected to it. The Noble Lord had pro-
-mosed to spend 16,003,000/. in making railroads in Ireland.
Now, in ordinary times that work was left to private enterprise.
and the capital requisite for such works was always obtainedr
from the surp,us wealth of the people. The NobleoLfc
ord thed
Member for Lynn proposed not to ask the rich t
eo
twhioth t
Governhei r
too ne enyt , butto th. ex asked
rt
ohoe Noble
EL
gdl
a.a(dt' th me
ie. head forward
producep of that tax to
that they might applytthheaitr capital in any
the people of
Ireland. He objected topeople of England
the
being ttaixoed,fhoratot
vhe. He w
er
ofemploying
opinion
Englandec.la n w
should be taxed for the purposes
noferxtihtgeenttG:o aosv as Government,
Querynamtent
but they ought not, under any consideration,- to be taxed for
the purposes of speculation.
Englmsh representative if he would allow his constituents to be
taxed for such a purpose, and toH such
pro-
posed by
Fo ir.ot
wouldll the e
a N
reottbuel
re
required
Lord.etqhu
airte hda
fdolr
bhteeheyen were already told that
mlaeidasuupr
oens othfothteahGlooovferthno-
-11;e"ouuri0,t'it appeare-d that. presentments had also lately been made
to the tune of 2,500,000/., and a Bill was about to be brought
in to sanction that expenditure. Let Hon, Members just add
these things together, and see how the matters stood. There
was the 9,000,000/. already proposed, and the 2,500,000/.
about to be sanctioned—that would make a total of
11,500,000/. Then the Noble Lord came forward and pro-
posed to take 26,000,0001., that would make together, on the
1 sweet calculation, 37,500,000/. The ordinary sum collected
for the purposes of the revenue daring the year was about
55,000,0001., and more than one-half of that sum
had to be placed to the credit of the national
debt ; so that the case stood thus : —There were
8,000,000 of persons requiring for their own benefit a sum
equal to more than one half of the whole expenditure of the
Government. This was all very fine; Gentlemen might talk
of comprehensive, schemes, or accuse others of malignity or
mendacity and ignorance, if they attempted to make any state-
ments or express any opinions upon the subject. But the
question to be considered was, wi at would the people of Eng-
land say upon the subject when the tax-gatherer came round?
—( Hear, hear.) The state of England ought not to be over-
looked. In the very constituency which he had the honour to
represent, there were persons in such a wretched state that they
were obliged to tear up their clothes and those of their children
into rags, and sell them as such at 2d. per lb., in older to ob.
tain a meal, but when such tales of suffering and want were
told of the poor wretches in Somersetshire, they excited no sym-
pathy in the hearts of Hon. Members, but the momenta tale of