The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-16 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 16, 1847.

confidence, from whatever cause, which prevailed iu
regard to it, private individuals were not prepared to
introduce capital, the 13i11 of the Noble Lord the Member
for Lynn would be the effectual means of doing so.
His Noble Friend had shown so clearly the benefits that
Ireland must derive from that measure—he had stated
so eloquently the employment it would give—the new
markets it would open—the increased value to that coun-
try in the most essential points—the benefit the poor
man would derive, not only from the employment it
would give, but from the industrious habits it would
cherish, by attaching him fully to the comforts of
his home, that he thought it would be one of the
most desirable measures ever proposed.—(Hear.) lie
would refrain from expressing any opinion of his own,
but he might be permitted to quote the opinions of others.
He would call she attention of the House, in the first
place, to a memorial presented to Lord Besborough
in 1846. The memorial was from the inhabi-
tants of the city of Dublin, whose e pinions
certainly ought to be considered on such a euesiion.
(The Noble Lord here read the document in question,
which stated that the memorialists were aware of
the strong opinion of the country to promote railway
enterprise, from which they expected the greatest pos-
sible good would result ; that 40,000 persons were
employed by the works then in operation ; and pressing
the matter warmly on the attention of his Excellency.)
He was not arguing that in a country where employment
was ample, where food was abundant, where artificial
wants had already been established, where happiness and
abundance reigned—he was not arguing that in such
a country as that they might not quicken the pulse of that
country to a feverish and unhealthy action; but what he
was saying was this, that in the present low
and unfortunate condi:ion of Ireland a system
of railways well carried out might produce the
most important benefits. Amongst the other important
effects a system of railways must have in Ireland at the
present moment, he thought would be the means of faci
litating the transference of fish throughout Ireland.
He held in his hand a letter he had received from
a gentleman in Ireland who was well versed on this sub-
ject, and for whose talents and integrity he could vouch.
It was not, however, written for the purpose of assisting
the Noble Lord's motion, because it was dated, and he
received it so far back as the end of October, 1845.
The writer said, that at the end of October, 1845,
he was in Galway, and was much interested with
the proceedings of the Claddagh fishermen. The
herrings were on the bank, and he observed
at least a thousand boats stand out to sea. The com-
munity were under the direction of a king, whom they
obeyed more implicitly than any other monarch.
'The thousand fishing boats brought in, on an average,
8,000 herrings, which sold at the rate of 10s. a thou-
sand, or 120 for Is. This number was equally
divided among the fishermen, and before the close
of the day they were sold to purchasers who
attended with horses and carts, to hawk them over the
country. Eight thousand herrings at los. per thousand
came to 41. per boat, and the gross amount was,
therefore, 4,0001. per day. The shoals of herrings
continued off the head of the bank; but the King of
Claddagh would not allow any of the fishing-boats to go
out until the hawkers returned.—(Hear, hear.) Thus
four days elapsed, and on the evening of the
fourth day the horses and carts arrived, and the
fishermen again put to sea. It was plain that
if railways had existed 4,0001. worth of herrings
might have been fished on each day, and con-
veyed throughout Ireland and to Dublin. Thus, for
want of railways many thousands of pounds were
lost, and the evil was the more lett becanse
for want of these railways no curing was carried on
in consequence of the very high price of salt.
It had been objected to the plan of his Noble Friend,
that there would be such difficulty in carryiroe it out, that
they would never raise the 16,000,0001., and that the
plan would therefore be refused. But he did not think
that this country was in such a condition that the sum
could not be raised. lie would not obtrude any opinion
of his upon the House, because it would be of no avail; but
he did understand from a friend of his who was well ac-
quainted with the finances of the country, that it
was preposterous to suppose that four millions of
money could not be raised in this country during
the year 1847 for the relief of the destitute
poor in Ireland. Another objection was, that the people
of England would object to the imposition of a tax
for the relief of the people of Ireland. The Noble
Marquis then read a series of extracts from the account
of a friend, which stated that on last Monday morning there
were no less than 44 corpses lying dead in one house,
and that over one hundred bodies had been deposited
in the small burial grounds of Skibbereen and the
neighbouring places, and that in those places no less
than 401 bodies had been found apparently dead from
starvation, and that not less than 1,600 victims
to this terrible calamity had fallen within these
few months.—(Hear, hear.) Would the people of
England refuse assistance in such a case as this, or
hesitate at any measure calculated for the effectual
relief of the poor in Ireland? He was quite sure that at
the present moment no such measure would be refused
for the people of Ireland, and the only difference be-
tween the plans of the Noble Lord opposite and his
Noble Friend was, that the latter would enable
the Government to use the resources of the
Government, while the former would not. The
Right Hon. Gentleman had said that some time
must elapse before the railways could be formed, and
that during that time. no return for the money would be
coming in. He did not see the Right Hon. Gentleman in
his place then, but he was quite sure that he would
be very glad to hear that no such circum-
stance could occur, for there was a clause in the
.Bill which provided that the interest of the money
should be paid by the Irish railways. This was not all
—he would go further—he could prove that not only
would not a single farthing come from the pockets of
the English people, but it would put money
into the Treasury. He would take a passage from
the Spectator of last week, and he supposed
that gentleman could not suspect it to be a paper likely
to be unduly influenced by his Noble Friend or his
party. It said that it was not only the magnificent pro-
rises which could be seen in the proposition of
the Noble Lord, or in the elaborately lucid
sp eels of the proposer —it was the specific
nature of the object at which he aimed, and the
explicit account of the way in which the plan was ex-
pected to work. In all these respects the plan stood in
formidable opposition and contrast to the plan of the
Ministry. It was like the substance placed op-
posite to the shadow. They had there laid
down all the Noble Lori's data—they might be dis-
pute.?, they might be falsified, but, then, they were
challenging scrutiny. Three Chancellors of the Ex-
chequer had gut up one after the other, and not one of
them had attempted to deny any important fact or state-
ment of the Neble Lord's.—(Hear, hear.) His Noble
Friend had said in his speech that there would be
600,0001. or 700,000/. put into the Treasury from the
increase of the Customs and Excise under the
operation of the Bill ; and could they say that
that was no advantage to the people of England?
The measure would, therefore, put 600,0001. or 700,0001.
into the Treasury.—(Hear, hear.) An endeavour had
been made the other evening by the Right Hon. Gentle
man the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to prove that the
data of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn was false.
He had asserted that the scheme, instead of employing
112,000 men, would only find employment for
45,000. It w.s not his (the larqui, of
Granby',) intention to go into these calcu
Cations at any length, as the Right Hon. Gentle-
man's statement had been most ably exposed by
the Hoe. Member for Newark and the Right
lion. Member for Sunderland (Mr. Hudson).
They had shown that instead of calculating for
four millions of money, he should have taken
six millions, and that ho had committed a
great mistake in setting down the earthwork at only
25 per cent. of the whole coat. Now, he would call the
attention of the House to one Irish line, which was the
most favourable to the present plan, in proof of the
incorrectness of the statement of the Right lion.
Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer—
it was the line from Dublin to Mullingar
and Athlone. The earthwork and labour of that line
cost 3,600/. a mile. Now, it was said that a million of
money would employ 45,000 persons ; if so, a 1,0001.
would find employment for 41, or 3,600/. for 162 persons.
Therefore, according to the Right Hon. Gentleman's
own principle, a mile of the railway in question would
employ 162 persons. Now this was an unfavourable
specimen of what the Bill would do ; inasmuch as, while
this line cost 9,000/. a mile, and 3,600/. a mile for earth-
work and labour, 3,600/. per mile had been paid for the
grand canal, making the actual cost but 6,4001.—(Hear.)
It had been attempted to be denied that the Noble Lord had
no right to assume that 500,000 persons would derive em-
ployment from his plan; hut he could not understand that
because men were employed in earthworks, that their
families, who might not be employed in other ways, would
be benefited. The Right lion. Gentleman had said
that the really destitute would not be relieved. how
could they create any great work of improvement, any
great reproductive work, and not employ able-bodied
impossible.
eof
benefit
If 11
? The
2 , 000 men wereßight
emme
pn 1 y e dW, Why it
u
d not was
they be
Hon. Gentleman had also said that the contractors would
Rot take all the labourers from the immediate neigh-
bourhood of the railways.—(Bear, hear.) He be-
lieved that all the labourers would not be taken
from the immediate:neighbourhood, but no doubt a large
number would. The Right Hon. Gentleman had stated
that all the railroads went eastwards, while all the dis-
tress was in the west. Was that the fact ? Were
there
rnot railways from Waterford to Limerick, from
all
the
Supposing partshes to Cork, from Waterford to Cork, from. Cork
to Blackrock, and other parts of the country in the
western
of Ireland
in and ?
his He
c fadisteress was not in the west of Ireland.
was or
all railways were on the eastward, what te
also
naturalno t, that
all thatt
t
conclusion to come to, wrsetaadst amh
but that they would take their
labourers from thosedistricts in which was distress and
an abundance of labwould be taking the ou
labr
? Well, but it was said this
at once that thisou rers from agriculture. He ad-
mittedwould be a great and serious
evil, but when he reflected that
were nearly dying of
two millions of people
starvationnot from the want
of employment, e could
with all their aid and . help thinking that
be a sufficient number Ipaftssirsotrance, there would
think that teen, was any tillinga
He did not h the land.
r,hof a want of
hands to cultivate vie lend ; but' thenlei'•
Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that net lion. the
was incompetent, either from his physical energies,
his industrial habits, for the labour required on railways.
Why, Why, they found that the Irish peasant was superior to
the Englishman, and he would read to the House the se-
veralo proportions of the two countries. He found that the
average height of the Englishman was sixty-eight
inches, and the Irishman seventy; the average weight
of the Englishman 1511 ha.. of the Irishman 155'bs.; the
average al', Ene`a e -nee 403.. e ed. .1 the
IriShitida 432.—(ileac, ii, ere) lie tirouge ,
that there existed no physical reason why the Irishman
should not be employed QU railways, The Noble Lord

then proceeded to read extracts, showing that, as re-
garded his industrious habits, the Irishman was not
second to the English labourer. There might havo
been cases of idleness and inattention, but as a people,
he could assure the House that no men had performed
their duty lo:,tter. Tile Right lion. Gentleman the
late Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr Goulhurn), had
stated that he was quite inclined to how to the opinion
of his Right Hen. Friend the Member for Sunderland.
The Right Hon. Gentleman 1 a I stated that enterprise
and capital had sucee,ded in forming railways in
England, and he wished to know why the same capital
and enterprise should not have been succeesful in form-
ing raialways in Ireland? Why. the Right Hon. Gentle-
man might, perhaps, know, that the climate of Italy and
the south of France was favourable to the cultivation of
the vine. No capital in England, without the aid of
forcing houses, could ever bring the vine to per-
fection ; nor could they without the aid of English
capital and enterprise ever form railwa3s in Ireland, or
ever make them available for the rt lief of the people.
There was one of th best lines in the country—that
from Limerick to Ennis. At one end of the line there
was a population of 60,000, and 12,000 at the other, and
serving a population of from 100,000 to 400,000, and
which was calculated to take in the accommo lation of a
hundred miles of river. He had received a leaer this
morning from a gentleman in Ireland, and it confirmed
all the views that he (the Marquis of Granby) had ad-
vanced. The Bill of his N..1)1(; Friend would confer the

greatest benefits on the people of helllnd without any
cost to this country: Ile hoped, however, they would

not look to the results that Ns7.uld follow the mere ex-

penditure of the m mey, but to the increased prosperity
of the country, and the various other concom'tant ad-
vantages which would ari...e—by which not only the
present distress would be alleviated, hut the foundation
laid of permanent good.—(hear, hear.) lie begged to
thank the house fur the patience with which they had
heard him.

Mr. BROWNE said that the 20th clause of the Bill pro-
vided that one-third of the stock should be advanced by the
shareholders, and that the Government should advance the re-

mainder on the security of the undertaking. Now this was a
mercantile speculation, and he doubted if the result would be
any thing but disastrous. All railroads in Ireland were at
present at a discount except three ; and, under such circum-
stances, he did not think that the scheme could be considered

very favourable. It was said that the circulation of paper-
money would not derange the monetary affairs of the country,
but if any one looked at the history of the finances of this coun-
try, he would come to a different conclusion. Many applica-
tions for the reduction of duties in various articles had been

made to the Government, but if the revenue was burdened in
the way proposed, there could be no attention paid to these ap-
plications. He trusted the Chancellor of the Exchequer would
sustain the national faith, but if that were to be done, all use-
less and unnece,sary expenditure must be avoided.—( Hear.)
Colonel MUIR trusted he should not be misunderstood on
such ob.ervations he should think it right to make, or that in

anything he should say he should be supposed to be averse to
the extension of railway communication in Ireland. On the
contrary, he was of opinion that no means could be morefai rly
or effectually applied to develope the resources of that country.
He consi.lered, however, that the treasure was exorbitant and

unreasonable in itself, that its benefits to Ireland were ques-
tionable, and that its effects would be injurious not only to the
public interests, but to the credit and commercial character of
the United Kingdom. It was not his intention to refer to the va-

rious objections which had been:made to:the measureby speakers
in the former part of the debate, but there was one to which he

begged to call the attention of the House, which was the fla-
grant immorality of the measure. There was no one more
convinced than he was of the purity, the patriotism, and the
philanthropy of the Noble Lord who introduced the Bill, but
that was not what they bad now to consider, and he had no he-
sitation in calling it an extensive scheme for the encourage-
ment of railway gambling under the auspices of the State. He
trusted that in making that statement he should not be consi-
dered guilty of misrepresentation or exaggeration. What was
the definition of gambling ? Was it not staking money on
creditless adventures in the hope of realising large profits? Well,
if that were a correct definition, he could not believe that any
impartial man would designate the measure for the encourage-
ment of Irish railways in another way than an insecure and
creditless adventure. They had only to look to the prostrate
condition of railway stock in that country to be convinced of
this. He did not know what the Noble Lord the Member for
Lynn would say to this, but it was the only criterion by which
the matter could be tested, and, in his mind, the verdict was
conclusive. Now the whole scope of the argument in favour of
the measure was, that the credit merely of the State was lent
to execute these undertakings, and that the invest-
ments would be repaid ; but he very much doubted
whether such expectations would be ever realised. He
did not doubt but, by the proposed plan, a certain
value would be given to the shares in the various lines to which
the Government advances were to be extended, hut this would
be but temporary, and they would soon subside into the same
state as they were before. The wise were convinced of this
from the first, and the imprudent would be convinced by the
sad experience they would have of the sad reality. It was only,
therefore, through the influence of some delusion that what
they now, in their lucid moments, considered valueless, should
be thought valuable from Government assistance. He
considered he was speaking moat justly in designating
the teherne as one that held out encouragement to
a system of gambling.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord on
the eloquent and lucid speech in which he brought forward
the measure, stated that one benefit to be conferred by it
would be that the Irish landlords who had shares in these
undertakings would sell them in order to improve their estates
with the proceeds, but the Noble Lord told them in the same
breath that the way to improve Ireland was to construct rail-
ways. He hoped the House would not give its sanction to
such a great act of public profligacy. It was not a year since
the House resounded with denunciations of the pernicious
spirit which then pervaded the country with respect to railway
gambling. That spirit was now lying dormant, and he hoped
they would not give their sanction to the proposal of the Noble
Lord the 'Member for Lynn, and resuscitate its slumbering
energies to work the same evils.
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON was rather surprised to hear
the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down .designate the
Bill of the Noble Lord as a measure for the encouragement
of immorality in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) It was much to be
regretted that the lion. Member had not been in the House
for some time past, otherwise he might have stopped the pass-
ing of many railway Bills.—( Laughter.) His Noble Friend
beside him, reminded him that with respect to some of the
railways in Ireland, both Houses of Parliament suspended the
standing orders, that their passing might be facilitated.
In his opinion, the present was the very time that the Govern-
ment ought to assist Ireland. The lion. Gentelman had in-
stanced America. But let him ask the Hon. Gentleman, were
not the large canals, public roads, and other great works, for
the most part performed by the Government ? He believed
that the objections raised to this measure might be divided into
two. In the first place it was said that railways were properly
private enterprise, with which Government should not inter-
fere ; and in the second place, thtt it would derange
the financial system as laid down by the Govern-
ment. With regard to the first objection, several
cases had been cited where Government had come forward
for public works, not only in England, Scotland, and Ireland,
but even in the colonies. The principle laid down by the
Noble Lord hid been already approved of by a Select Committee
of that House. That Committee had been appointed to con-
sider this subject. Of that Committee some of her Majesty's
Government were members. In page 7of that report, among
the remedial measures proposed for the improvement of
Ireland, was the promotion of public works, and

the Committee expresso f their de.sire of calling the
attention of the House seriously to the question.
A Bill was introduced for that purpose. He himself bad been
consulted on the Bill, and the hunour was even done him of
employing his name in it. He must allude to what had been
said as to there being less distress in the north of Ireland than
in any other part of the country at the present time. Now it
was owing to the employment that was found for able-bodied
labourers on those railways that that distress did
nit exist. It had been also said that the Irish
would not he employed on those railways ; but
were there not hundreds of them employed on railways at pre-
sent it this country 2 With regard to the financial part of the
question, he was rLady to admit that the country was labouring
under some financial difficulty, which affected unquestionably
the Government securities. The Bill of his Noble Friend the
Member for Lynn did not propose to increase the taxation, and
before Government was required to do so there would be ad-
vanced a sufficient sum to proceed with. Four millions had
been advanced for East India railways, for the liability of the
Indian Government was confirmed by the Government of
this country. Was it not right railways should be promoted in
Ireland as well as in India? He regretted that the Noble
Lord did not feel it his duty to adopt the Bill even in a
modified shape.
Mr. F. FRENCH said he was anxious to say a few words
in explanation of some statements which were made by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer with reference to Ire-
land, but before he could do so, he desired to
bear his testimony to the laborious research of the
Noble Member fir Lynn, and his admiration of the lucid and
clear method in which he placed his opinions before the House.
Ireland owed him a deep debt of gratitude; he had been the
first statesman who had the courage to come forward and lift
the veil under which the country had so long withered ; and
his example should be followed by those who would in future
attempt to govern the country. He felt it his duty to repel all
charges which reflected on the character of Ireland, and he
cared not whether those charges proceeded from those to
whom Ire was politically opposed or otherwise, for,
come they whence they might, as long as he
possessed a seat in that House, he would raise his
voice in defence of the country. The first circumstance to
which he would allude, was the statement made by the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer that the Grand Canal owed a sum
of 100,000'. which had never been repaid. Now the facts of
that case were these:—The sum originally lent was 47,0001.
The Grand Canal, when that sum was lent, had an income of
50,0001., and they had a clear profit of 300!. a mile. They
were anxious to extend the line to Ballinasloe, and had there
bstnwiezhaepd inceehn,and
cwe of h
properas security
ney lost.
taken,
But
there w oul
the
Chancellor
d not have
of h
been
Ex-
chequer
ven a
of the day took a security upon a line not
whwolhlyichandwaesntirteoly
hon
g. trrhrhoeugehonseavenceo: wasntry
that that portion did not pay either principal or interest, and
a compromise had been lately offered of 10,000/. for the whole
debt. The fault lay completely with the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, who lent the money upon bad security. The next
statement which was made was in reference to the sum of
12,0001. to the great city of Cork, which is annually rated at
two or three hundred thousand pounds. This sum is reported
never to have been paid. This was a like case with the former;
and he would ask the House if proper security had been taken
in this instance? Was it likely th it the city of Cork would
not have paid the debt?—( Hear, hear.) There was also
the sum of one hundred thousand pounds lent to bend
two bridges in Limerick, and the only security
taken was the tolls upon the bridges.—, Hear.) Let the House
consider whether a place like Limerick ‘ would be able to repay
such a sum merely from the tolls arising from two bridges ?
This had been done during the Chancellorship of a Noble Lord
olandlords o n oe fy
grantedlreland hadat yendeavoured to
f
who did not then possess a seat in the House—he meant Lord
fora
gefloitnehr;eietldlTheeaah'ilelnabeen decided by the Lord Chancellor thatge of their estates. But they were pre •
vented,
nintl
loanset edt h
d ,
ll
reasons which he ha previously stated, and he
tenants for life could not avainlotthsenpmoseolvrtesthoef porfotvhiesii\onoshoief
the Biil. —( Hear.) He could
Lord for the
Mr. NEWDEG, T F said he wool(' support the measure of
-
his vote in favour of the amendment.
would accerdinelv give‘
the Noble Member fir Lynn, "/ch he considered well calen•
lated to meet the exigencies of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He
. ion.
Member for Ports-
had been surprised at the Right
local concerns. He
lly those mouth, and the Right Hon. GentlemsnntehveerCwhaonneidellroerpoafy
theth
capital, on account of being merelythe
Exchequer, stating that these railways
de-
nied that they were such, especia e great lines proposed
wellth
works of this kind, that there could be no better investment
tkonoi nwtnertsoe cetv
every gentleman
eimn a
nt the
flheea nogosdei,react
took up all the
than through lines of railway, which not only
mo
traffic of the districts through iltoy passed. but accoma -
tamllncs.onvletrswanats with
the te:,,,;;041 the pritieilial tiog
hu.r. ) A gr:-at deal had likewise 11;,-.1 said, ilitin th •
progress of this discussion, about the principles of po
economy, and of their violation by the present Bill. But was
cal

it not absurd to talk of political economy in the present state of
Ireland, when the people were starving? The circumstances
of England and Ireland were altogether different. During
the last eleven years there had Bills passed for 7,200 miles
of railway in England, of which one-third, or 2,600 miles, had
been completed, leaving yet to make 4,600 miles. In the
same time Bills for Ireland had passed for the con-
struction of 1,523 miles, of which but 123 miles
had been completed, leaving yet unconstructed 1,400
miles. By this it would appear, that while England had con-
structed one-third of the lines for which Acts had been ob-
tained, Ireland had constructed hut one-twelfth, and of this
one-twelfth they had been told that the great proportion of
capital had been subscribed by England. If this were so, and
if such a small proportion of the Irish railways had been made,
the result could only be attributed to the deplorable condition
of Ireland during the last few years. To talk therefore
of applying the principles of political economy under
such circumstances wag perfectly absurd.—(Hear, hear. )
The people of Ireland required employment, and the
plan of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn was expressly
adapted for the purpose. There was a vast amount of capital
in this country which at present could only be employed in
Government securities, and he saw no better mode of employ-
ing it than by the carrying out of the works contemplated by
the present Bill. He admitted that there were evident signs of
a corning financial difficulty and a commercial crisis ; but that
was in connexion with the present monetary system, and the
altered circumstances of the country, occasioned by the abro-
gation of the protective system last year. The commercial
difficulty which he apprehended would, therefore, arise out
of the present monetary system, and the excess of imports
over exports, occasioned by the leg:slation of last year; but
because there was a prohabi:ity of such a crisis, were the peo-
ple of Ireland to be left to starve ? Was no provi•
sion to be made for them ?—( Hear, hear. ) lie submitted
that there must, and 'hat the Bill now under the consideration
of the House was well adapted for the purpose. The Hon.
Member then proceeded to show how the present monetary
system operated against the extension of railway and other
public works, and in support of the views he advanced, read a
long extract from a letter which he said he had received from
an esteemed friend, in illustration of the injurious effects of the
currency measures of Sir Robert Peel. He believed that
the real difficulty existed in the monetary system. Why four
millions annually was only a part of the means adopted to
meet the emergency of the war, when the expenditure of the
country was 73,000,000'. Was there then any real impossibility
to meet the exigencies of Ireland? In 1843 the income-tax
was ten per cent., while now it was only three per cent. The
whole of the tax proposed now was less than nine per cent.
Could they refuse to raise less than one-half ? He believed
there was no difficulty, and if there was a difficulty, it arose
from the monetary system. The difficulty, if one there was,
arose from speculations in foreign railways, and when the crisis
has come, and when the bullion might be assorted, the specu-
lation in foreign railways kept capital short. He asked
whether it was wise to restrict one department whereby
the exchanges were regulated, when the other
department was confessedly employed to restrict the
enterprise of commercial capital ? He saw the Member
for the city of London - smile, but he only spoke
on the authority of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and if
there were no difficulty there was no necessity for restricting
this accommodation.—( Hear, hear.) If these opinions were
erroneous he alone was responsible for them ; but he would
turn to another point. He believed that in 1835 the drains
for gold on the Bank began, and with the commencement of
that drain all the difficulty arose.—(Hear, hear.) Ile
must confess that he felt considerable surprise at the spirit in
which the Government had met the proposal of his Hon.
Friend.

his vote
oteJ. ono' Ct
the
NpNr
eEs
eLaL felt
t occasion. co n s considerable rat
ib
el e
feltdifficulty
that
there in
one great benefit in the Noble Lord's proposal, and that
was, that it promised immediate employment.—( Hear, hear.)
But the Irish Members felt themselves in this difficulty,
that while the Noble Lord at the head of the Government
promised immediate employment, yet the plan of the
Noble Lord the Member for Lynn (Lord George Bentinck)
promised something commensurate with the distress new ex-
isting in Ireland. He was quite ready to allow that the Go-
vernment and the people, both within and out of the House, had
evinced the warmest sympathy for the people of Ireland, and
he did hope that the Government would have taken up this
plan, and even if it were modified, that they would have car-
ried it out. France had adopted some such plan, and it has been
discovered that in their taking possession of the railways in
that country they had found their account. Not only had the
Government of that country realised all they expected, but had
obtained a dividend out of the returns. The plan of the Noble Lord
the Member for Lynn seemed to give the only chance of getting
the relief that was necessary, and for that reason he would give
his humble vote for the motion of the Noble Lord opposite.
He deeply regretted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should '
have felt it his duty to advance a position that the officials in
Ireland had not done their duty. He deeply regretted this.
because that Right Hon. Gentleman had stated to the House,
when something more than 300,000/. had been advanced for a
wide street in DuAin, that nothing of this sum had been '
repaid. This was entirely a mistake, and he would take the
paper which had been given in a return of the moneys carried
from the English to the Irish Exchequer, and the contrary.
By that paper it appeared that the remittances from
the English Exchequer to the Irish Exchequer was
7,000,0001., whilst the remittances from Ireland during
the same period, that was from the period of the
union till last year was 26,000,000!., making the
difference in favour of the Irish Exchequer of 19,000,000/.
Was this any proof that the advantage had been all on the side
of Ireland ? Then there was a question respecting
the expenditure of 500,0001. on the part of Eng-
land for the improvement of Dublin, but the same
principle held good in this as in the ether case.
By the financial returns it would appear that 3,600,0001. were
advanced for the support of the Irish police. Now, if this
were solely and purely an Irish loan it would be proper that
Ireland should pay all of it, but it must be recollected that the
constabulary of Ireland did the duty of soldiers, rnd if this
police forcedid not exist the army would have to be extended by
some 7,000 or 8,000 men. Still the sum was in the course of
repayment. With regard to the roads and bridges there had
been upwards of 600,000/. advanced to Ireland on that ac-
count, of which all had been repaid with the exception of
24,0001. He must now go into other matters. In the Scotch
fisheries upwards of 1,400,000/. had been expended by the
public exchequer since 1809, while the amount advanced to Irish
fisheries since 1800 only amounted to 300,0001. Now, he found
that although large sums of money had been advanced to I. e-
land, the treaty of union had been violated by this country in
its fiscal provisions and other of its provisions. He did not in
tend to go into minute details upon the point, but the House
might rely upon the figures he was about to quote ; indeed they
the
to extentthe
0 t
could be proved by Parliamentary returns. Since the union
4G7r, Great, aoot B,
orwi t al i
,n
whhaidl
eble
Ireland
aed relievedhad only from thaexeant ion tto
relieved
ex-
tent of 2,670,000/. The taxes imposed on England since the union
amounted to 40,120,0001., and the imposition upon Irelandwas 5,510000/. Therefore England had had an excess of
relief from taxation over the amo. 01..
nt imposed of 6,503,00
whereas Ireland had experienced an excess of taxation amount-
ing
,
to 2,800,000/., a sum greater in amount than the retie.
given. On these grounds alone Ireland was entitled to a large
measure of relief in her present emergency ; but the relic'
would be useless if the HORN did not follow it up with mea
..
sures to raise the general condidition of the pesetPiliee:
It was their bounden duty to do so in
honesty to their own interests. At all events,
themselves
they did not do so, they would leave ,
to drain the coffers of the country. The condition
position
people must be raised, and then Ireland would be in a
should be
open to a recurrence
uthrpempwseoh.tiacthoH. tchrroepaetafegntaheiien
to repay the debt. But, even supposing Ireland
.nwets'
unable to repay the whole of the debt, if their condi: hoe
s_as
improved they would be able to repay this country in t_ h
of an increased revenue. Out of thirty millions
revenue of the United Kingdom Ireland only
i it was
seven. Now this was by no means proportionate
1 of Ireland
(Hear, hear. ) The truth was the peol'e xeisabl,
remembered that the population was as eight to wheneighteen.—
were too poor, and could not afford to purchasee
There
and customs-paying articles in proportion to England.
which
in Ireland, upon which the duty was paid in this country, w
paidtrittomttipete
was, besides, a large quantity of foreign manufactures
acnondsusomme:
were estimated at the value of 389,000/. per annum, .
6 lando,oowoa/.s
notor 70,
giveneoC 1.
credit.derived
Thefro m
peopleCro Crown lands,nef
Irelandf or
wwehriecehrt
ealxroced,
at the same rate as the people of this country, but they w ;
tpioeorie tao bseimppulencthuyaplettohettihceal seaamsee, extent. might men
position of the people of Ireland. Supposing a
00r mat
one penny in the pound were levied upon meat, theP
while
purchased his two pounds and paid his twopence,
his oft
the rich man bought his eighteen pounds and
paid
lion here
shilling and sixpence There was excess of taxation ,
The poor man, in proportion tomd tht
money, Pal
local
rateof t hof;
the positioi
same as the rich, and that was exactly
should du.
of Ireland. Now, what the House
condition. ant
would be to endeavour to better her trade and
te
the revenue.
thus enable her to contribute her prop" sharel
ich he adopter
Mr. COItRY explained the course se,l
her step he should
tions, namely, that before he took any
0t
already proposed.
wait the result of the Government measures
struction of rail.
He agreed with his Noble Friend that the conch
good, but he
ways in Ireland would be productive of
hmeve
the present dis-
when he was invited to join the Irish party in their delibera.
thought they would be ill adapted to re
_e
H considered that i.
forseirvawteiadalinAsit% it the
tress which prevailed in that country.
' G vernment did not
and he was glad to see that her Majesty s 0
ergency. They hoc
was the duty of the State to arrest the P
hesitate to come forward to meet the em
already expended nine millions for. .
al outlay which was pro-
assent, therefore, to the great addition
favourable a view o
posed by this Bill.
He did not take Po . .
th th
it would terminate wi e
the calamity as to suppose that
, of the seed for this
e could not
next harvest, as the Progress
of the famine
iathreatopf
ee etation. He, there.
PeState should be hue.
fore, thought that the resources of the
. . f t
possible continuation o a s ate o
banded, and kept to await the posent.
Besides, even if they die
year's s
not crop,su eahn and
as the
to anticipated
warrant esaurecfhat ti
a a
things much worse thanhthe pre
withdrawal of the expenditure then
contributed to depress tin
might find, at the expiration of
of
this
i cotabowntuaLhti,
leti
rtypywo,-
cookaupnel
opposed
begetsoetfdhtahtt
heaaef
speculator,e
ge lßri
eni ofalglt.
portiondi
ie dependence.
instead
snwtdoea efsandtnchoeo;.l
scheme was a dazzling pro
who were dependent on it in as helpless
hhteich it was intended to relieve. Ile
which,
etaschxecepouenflndodduiltreaiaolyl,neetahrtatsiesi,emtptoiheinaaeettpyl
et'
of
the
not consider it would be a just measure ti
posal, but he
_aeco_nd reading of the Bill.
energies
money would go
benefit it was intended. He should,
those for whose
e, them.
eliars'ilsohlarge a measure out of the hands of tht
ditPheliitesn.tgceoTlnie'ie'der the House of Commons
He 'the principles
such expenditure. He did
thought,th e people moreover,
principles of political economy ; but
s was against toothe measure not set
advanced to
why money should berailway companies at 3,:
market rate of '
when the interest was so much
per cent.
said that Government interference with fresh
higher. It was
Government.
opposed, manou not assent ti
though he was he lieved that
snch a doctrine, fory of the measure,
disposeddi cig itsie s dutymorett a ikt advising
now advocated
dopted, and , partook of the same
H thought, however, that though the House shouli
nature. e
speculators, they should take
not legislate for care that a goo(
system of railways
should
be constructed to develops the re.
They ought,
sources of the country. however, to follow, not pre
rfoairlmwearyl y a
cede, the development of commerce, as they did in this country
It was also said that railways would not afford immediate relie
to the distressed labourers; but the point of fact was, that the
earthworks to be executed would afford a very considerable
amount of labour ; and he was informed that the Dublin an
Cashel Railway had been willing to have made the whole o
their earth- works, from one end of the line to the other, ho'
the presentments were reftsed,. and the money was expendet
upon public works, when it might have been more profitabls
expended.—,,Hear, hear.) It was to the future which he most
y would
t :hm r there
bef railways wasa
looked to. They should not alone examine the preset)!
He therefore pressing calamity, for it was necessary that then
should endeavour to restore a sound social system
security for the investment of capital, either in commerce
which would not be
ausnAtiilts
considerei
that the question of a system cf railway lopingm e manufacture,sth etaheefi.,ai
pa
ipo rl
application
agriculture.iolreland,nof
ca p i
t. a l .
extension was wet
worthy of the anxious consideration of the House ; and he
hoped that the Government would devise some plan which woulc
involve the principle of the Noble Lord.
,ste. Vii a W said. tii:s, ;-,,s did no. melts to eeter into ti ._
particular merits of the measure 'before the House. Fits tees.
ings would lead him one way, but his judgment and reason let;
him another. Considering the statement which he heard an
means awonfudl perfect
dove
v be s
hisan illustration
lie

to the result of the measure upon the present Government,
he would not be a party, by any vote, to overturn that Go-
vernment, or lead to the formation of a new one.—(Hear. )
lie was in favour of a combined system of railways in Ireland,
under the management of the State. This might expose him
to come utip pularity in Ireland, but he considered it was an
Advisable suggestion, and he hoped to see the Government
before long promoting works of this kind. He regretted that
he could not vote far the second reading of this Bill, because
he believed it would impede the Government in those
measures which they had brought forward so benefleiently for
the purpose of immediately relieving the distresses of Ireland.
He sincerely thanked the Noble Lord for the interest he felt in
the welfare of Ireland at a period when she was afflicted by a
great and deep calamity, and when she was deserted by her
natural leaders. He had spoken out like a country gentleman
of England; but, however he might admire the courage of the
Noble Lord to assume the Government if it were offered
to him. he could not, consistently with his duty, vote for the

aeecond reading of the Bill.
Sir W. IIIOLESWORTH said the argument of the Hon.
Member for Kilkenny (Mr. J. O'Connell) was th's Let
there be the largest possible expenditure of money—spend
without measure, spend without stint—give us all the mule),
you possibly ran." o:her Irish Members adopted a similar
argument. Now he sincerely pitied them, and meant no dis •
respect to them by saying so. Words could not express, minds
could not conceive, the scenes they had witnessed in Ireland—
famine, death, worse than death, the agony of impending death
from famine, from tl.e actual want of food. He did not

wonder, therefore, that they were glad to adopt an, measure
.= hie!) was at all likely to alleviate the distresses of theirj coon-

ryinen—even the measure of the Noble Lord ; but it was the

duty of English Members to exercise their calm judgment on
the question. Ile believed that the people of England
were ready to snake any sacrifice to save the
people of Ireland from starvation, and with that view a mea-
ore had been already passed for affording immediate relief to
the destitute poor of that country. When myriads are suffer-
ing from hunger it was impossible to scan too narrowly a mea-
sure which was requirod in actual operation without delay ;
yet that measure alone would involve the expenditure of mil-
lions of money, which the people of this country would be
compelled to pay. But the adoption of measures were neces-
sary for the purpose of placing the burdens of Irish distress on
the shoulders of those who ought to bear it. Nos, he obj, cted
to the scheme of the Noble Lord because it would not accom-
plish either of those two objects. Ile objected to it, likewise,

because, looking at it in its:most favourable light, it would not

aecomplish its object for which he said he brought it forward—
namely, the relief of the destitute poor. No more than one-
third would be employed in the payment of wages—that labour
must be chiefly performed by skilled and able-bodied men, so that
a considerable number would be imported from this country. Then
railways would not be made through the destitute and ill-popu-
lated parts of the country, but throu.,„h the north and the west ;
consequently labour would be created in those places where
there was less need of it; arid even there the destitute poor
would suffer, because the labour could only be performed by
the vigorous part of the people, and they alone would obtain
employment. Thus coalition and riots would ensue. It would
only benefit those in the immediate neighbourhood of the rail-
ways, and that benefit would be inconsiderable compared
with the amount which would be spent. The landlords through
whose property the line would pass would be the first
gainers; secondly, the shareholders, whose shares would be-
come as profitable as the best English securities; and, lastly,
the mortgagees, who would take a considerable portion of the
money. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had, he thought,
characterised the Bill as a " Bill for the benefit of destitute

,hareholders." Most English railways were constructed with
capital raised on their intrinsic merits; but if Government

ivere in a position to furnish money to shareholders to construct
lines which their intrinsic merits could not raise, he

jaw no reason why the money should not be devoted
to the construction of English instead of Irish railways.
Every farthing spent in making bad railways in Ireland
would be so much deducted from the making of good railways

in England. Ho begged the Noble Lord and his party to con-
sider that, however much they were bound to afford relief to
Ireland, they were bound to do justice to their constituents,
and not to vote for the spending of money on such an useless
project as the one before the House. The Government hail
ever found great want of enterprise and energy amongst those who
were in a position to carry out works likely to be beneficial to
the county; there was a want of self-reliance among the
people.—( Hear, hear.) It was strange that they had
read of an abundant harvest —of fields covered with
grain----yet when but a portion of that crop was deficient they
were plunged at once into all the evils of a famine, without
any means of support. A stronger poor-law, which would
compel the owners of the soil of that country to relieve their
awn poor, was required; and until such a measure was passed
he considered that little good would accrue to Ireland.
Mr. DISRAELI said, that in occupying the attention of the
House he hoped to address himself to the immediate subject
under consideration, arid should not attempt, like some
other Hon. Members, to diverge to other topics—

so doubt of paramount importance, but, whether right
or wrong, just or unjust, were not the question they
hail now to consider.—( Hear, hear.) The impression which
had been made on the House by the address of the Hon. Alm-
ber the Recorder for Dublin, rendered it necessary that he
(Mr. Disraeli) should advert to the feeling which he had ex-
pressed, and the position in which they, on that side of the
House, were placed. The Right Hon. Gentleman had ex-
pressed himself, that while he gave the Noble Lord the Mombe-r
for Lynn great credit for the sentiments he had expressed, and
the measure he had introduced, still he felt it his duty to vote
contrary to it.—( Hear, hear.) He told them that bec -use
the Government depended on this vote he must record his
‘uffrage contrary to the proposition of the Noble Lord the
Member for Lynn.--( Hear, hear.) This was the position of
the Right Hon. Member, and this led them to the consideration
the circumstances of the question now before them.

lie could easily understand why a member from a party con
-rexion might not only be induced to be silent on a particular
question or vote against a particular measure that they might
think abstractedly beneficial to the country, if by so doing he
expected that party to ride into power. He could understand
t Member so situated supporting his friends even when the
policy might be considered antagonistic to the welfare of the
.iountry. That, however, was not the position of the Right
lion. Gentleman the Member for the University of Dubin.
He still was, and he (Mr. Disraeli) hoped he would remain
with the political parfy he originally began with, though
fighting against considerable odds. He would now address
himself to the consideration of the present position which the
party with whom he acted occupied. This measure had sug-
eested itself to his Noble Friend the Member for Lynn some
considerable time ago. It had been long matured, and well
digested, and so constituted, as to be peculiarly adapted to the
circumstances of Ireland, and for the elevation of the condition
of the people of that country. In the Queen's Speech the pro-
position for immediate relief for the people of Ireland was
,nooted ; and on the first day of the session his Noble Friend
pressed on the Noble Lord at the head of her Majesty's
Government this measure; but as the Government, it was
sated, had prepared measures for the emergency,
,hough his Noble Friend had matured for many
months this scheme of railways for Ireland, he
did not further press it then. What had since then been the
conduct of the Noble Lord ? It would have been easy for his
Noble Friend, and those with whom he acted, mere than
once to have opposed the measures of the Govern-
ment. But considering the extraordinary circumstances under
which her Majesty's Ministers came into power, and the exist-
ing emergency of the country, they thought it would be un-
worthy of them in the circumstances of the Government to
oppose it in any petty spirit.—( Hear, hear.) It would have
been easy for them to have opposed the Labour Act, but in-
stead of this, all they did was to con,ider whether the gentle.
men occupying the places of her Majesty's Government, had
acted with ability, energy, and zeal in the circumstances under
which they were placed. They (the protectionists) beleved
that they hid done so, that they had acted with ability, energy,
and zeal, and that in their candid opinion no body
of men, under the circumstances, could have acted better in
these respects.—( Hear, hear.) But the Noble Lord on the
iccasion he ( Mr. Disraeli) had referred to, en the opening of
the session, said he was ready to support the measure of her
'.Majesty's Government ; but that if he found them defective in
their details, if they did not sufficiently meet the case, he would
be prepared to br ng forward another measure, not in an an •
r agonistic, but in an anciliary spirit.—( Hear, hear.) These
were not the words of lip rhetoric, but every one knew, whether
from public explanations or from private conversation, that
this was the case. But now they were told that the exist-
ence of the Government, depended on the rejection of the
i present measure ; to that he (Mr. Disraeli) would answer,
why did not the Noble Lord at the head of the Government,
when his Noble Friend made the exposition of his plan to the
House, why did he not then state this to be the case ? That
was the time fur him to say that he could not accept the
measure, and that, if it was carried, he would divest himself of
the responsibility of carrying it out, and threw it on those who
supported it and the Noble Lord who brought it in. That would
have been the proper course to take. But when he allowed
the Bill to be laid on the table of the House, and when he
had given his leave to introduce it, then his Noble Friend, as a
man of honour, was bound to carry it through to its last stage,
and to say that whatever might be the result no conclusion
could be drawn reflecting on his conduct or character
in what he had done.—( Hear, hear.) This was the
real view of the case. The Noble Lord the Member
for Lynn having made an exposition of his plan, and the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government having given his quasi
sanction to its introduction, they were not to be told that the
Ministry was in danger as an inducement to abandon the
scheme. If an adverse vote against the Government threat-
ened its existence, it was what often had been done before
without any serious result. He saw Hon. Gentlemen on both
sides of the House, who, when they entered Parliament, were
told that the Government would not last, as they were going
out on the Irish question. (Hear, hear.) They
did not, however, go out then. Two years after the
leader of the most powerful opposition that had aver ex-
isted in this country declared that Ireland was his grea'est
difficulty. That party succeeded to power, and toad them and
the country that they were the only party that could govern
Ireland. But the question now before the House was not the
government of Ireland, the question of the last ten years, but
it was, how they were to feed the Irish people.—( Hear.) And
this was the best time to discuss this question, when no passions
or prejudices were raised up with its consideration. If the ques-
tion was whether Popery should be increased or diminished,
whether municipal powers should be extended or abolished,
it might admit of some hesitation and discussion; but when
they found a country like Ireland, with a population the
densest in Europe, as it regarded arable land denser than
China, and while the capital of that country was only twenty
shillings or thirty shillings a head—while that of sterile Scot-
land was sixteen pounds a head, the present measure became
one of paramount importance. (Hear, hear.) That
e ars.
body
o Hef
tbe believed
people that
of
t
was the result that had been drawn by the people of
England
fivree great
this country, without reference to creed, class, or party, that
no hallucination has been greater than the supposition that
iwa s
the during
conviction the lastn o
w fourof
the or
g
this was a political panacea which could cure the griefs of Ire-
land. The Noble Lord, in his general address on the subject of
Ireland some time ago, stated that the state of Ireland was a
famine of the 13th century with the population of the 19th.
No doubt that was a striking and picturesque description, but
he must say that it was a fallacious one. In the famines of the
middle ages, and the feudal famines, they understood their
cs and their consequences, but he believed that the famine
inaulsreel and might find a parallel in countries and times less re-
mote, and he was sorry to say in the dominions of her Majesty.
There was another portion of her Majesty's dominions :where
population was almost as dense, where poverty was almost
as intense, and where the people were del endent upon the
the
lowest sources of human subsistence. It was India that he al-
ludedand when the rice failed, as when the potato failed in
Ireland, they found the state of affairs very similar. It was a
f Providence, for these calamities always came from
to,
visitation o
the Most Divine. That truth none could dispute;
but would
would it do for that House to forget to use the sorry phrase
visitationo of Providence to conceal its own remissness in
that respect,
because what had occurred had been
in Ireland.
foretold by
great statesmen, and by men of most experience
told them, twenty-five years age, that the
gradual degeneration of the
seed of the potato would ulti-
mately destroylreland unless they arrested its course. They
dispatches and public papers of Mr. Drum-
Lord Wellesley
would find, in the
mond, the
samf
et
opinion,the inevitable result of events long foreseen
then, was, in
knew
Ireland best, and were capable of forming
by those who
it. They had the Government measures to
an opinion upon and anything occurring in Ireland,
he may, their supporter, and, as he
, Government affairs;
id be, whenever he did support, the earnest sup-
porter"" 50" • He would, however, venture to re-
mark, of these measures.
of the :Noble Member for Lynn was
that the measure
alleviate this state of affairs, and it was not fir him to crisicise

in accordance with the general intention of the Government •
system. The measure of the Government would alleviate, or
attempt to alleviate, the immediate distress. The Noble Lord
indicated means by which future renovation might be secured.
The measures of the Noble Lord were such as would se-
cure that employment desirable in early states of that
future renovation. All that was brought forward was projected
as a means of giving immediate employment to the people of
Ireland, but which at the same time was to a twofold effect—
to give a new character to the country, and so as to change
the very complexion of that long-deserted and unhappy land
by results similar to those which had recently occurred—from
i
He would the evils under which she was then suffering. not
dilate for a moment on the character of the proposition which
the Noble Lord adverted to, and which proposed to itself two
objects, and principally because it was the most regarded,
although scarcely the most important consideratior , he confined
himself to its power of employing the people of Ireland. His
Noble Friend had made a statement from data which he gave
without reserve to the House, and by which he calculated that
110,060 able-bodied labourers would be occupied under his
scheme, and who would represent a population ex-
ceeding 500,000 persons. Alt hough it was not em-
ployment which could cure the evils of Ireland,
he was sure that there was no gentleman present but would
acknowledge that if they could secure such employment it
must be the means of alleviating the present pressure upon the
resources of this country. The proposition of his Noble Friend
had been met—he would not say by an able—but by an ex-
tremely z ialous opposition. He did not mean to say that in an
offensive sense, far he was quite sure that lion. Gentlemen
who made the opposition had made the best of their means in
doing so. The objection stated by the lion. Member
of the Government who first rose on this subject was a critical
objection, founded upon the back of this Bill. He found that
the Bill was introduced, not by the Hon. Member for Siam-
ford, but it was also introduced by the Hen. Member for
Sunderland, greatly interested in railways, and alto by the Hon.
Member for Westmoreland, who was known to be one of the
greatest manufacturers of iron in England. It was the first
objection raised by the Chancellor of the Exchequer against
the present proposal. He was perfectly willing to admit that the
Chancellor of the Exchequer did net for a moment impute, even by
reference, any corrupt motive to his Noble Friend. There
were few gentlemen present who would dispute his proposi-
tion. They ail knew the fascination of an engrossing pursuit—
it did give a tone to the judgment, and it was not impossible
that men so interested would view the general affairs of the
world through the coloured prism, their usual acts. He was
not disposed to deny that his Hon. Friends the Members for Sun-
derland and Westmoreland might have viewed the circumstances
placed under their consideration with feelings resulting from one
engrossing idea. Still he must reply that it was not merely
creators of railways and manufacturers of iron, who had fol-
lowed the principle, for he found that three Chancellors of the
Exchequer rose each after the other, so that lie was disposed
to view their financial opposition as arising from the same
feeling. The Hon. Member for Portsmouth who came for-
ward on this occasion in a gallant spirit, which all the sympa-
thetic reminiscences of official life could not stop, and said
that the Member for Newark had made a decla-
matory speech, but no reply to the unanswerable
statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
If no answer had been given, they had adduced no proof
in the first instance. There had been many alterations made
by the Chancellor c f the Exchequer with regard to railways.
lie was surprised that it should be so, but he was more sur•
prised that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have an-
other Chancellor of the Exchequer ready to be his bail and
guarantee, and to tell the House that his speech was unan-
swerable. He would then detail the expenditure to the
House, and he would give an analysis of the expenses of the
several railways, and this he thought would decide the
question ; and he thought still further, that as to the accuracy of
this question, it was a bona fide report to those
who were interested in railways, and he was sure that the
House would believe this. There was given in it an analysis
of the description of expenditure incurred upon a dear line in
England, and also upon a cheap one ; likewise upon all the
Belgian railways, and upon the Paris and Rouen—one of the
most complete lines in France. The total expenditure per mile
on the London and Birmingham Railway was 49,650/. Of this,
there were expended on law, Parliamentary, engineering, and '
direction, 2,1501., and on land and compensation 6,3001., giving
an average of 17 per cent. out of the 49,6501. Of items indi-
rectly connected with skilled labour, there was on the carry-
ing department 3,0004, and for the permanent way 5,6501 ,
giving 26 per cent.; and on the items connected immediately
with labour, such as earthworks, and stations, and the like,
out of the 49,6554 that was expended, 32,6301, or 62 per
rent.—(Cheers.) That was a dear railway, .and he
would now take a cheap English one. The total ex-
penditure of the Grand Junction was 21,200;. per mile,
arid the items unconnected with labour were 17 per
cent.; the items directly connected with skilled labour were
26 per cent.; while those connected with common labour
were 50 per eat.— (Hear, bear.) On the Belgian railways
the total expenditure per mile was 16,1301., and the
items connected with common labour per mile were 6 92 V.,
or 43 per cent.—( Hear, hear.) On the Paris and Rouen
Railway the expenditure per mile was :'2,500/., and out of that
there was paid for common labour 12,570/., or 56 per cent.,
giving an average on the whole of these railwass in. England,
in Belgium, and in France of 57 per cent. expended on common
labour.—( Cheers.) He would now call the attention of the
House to the declaration of the Right Hon. Gentleman the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, who estimated that the ex-
penditure on labour on railways was only 25 per cent.
Now, if they took the Irish railroads at 16,0001. per mile,
and allowed 57 per cent. as the average expended on
labour, or 0,1201. per mile, which, over a period of four
years, was 2,9801. annually, and if they took the Chancellor
of the Exchequer's statement, that for every 1,0001. per mile
there were 45 men employed, it was clear that, according to
the Right Hon. Gentleman's data, there would he employed
for every 1,000/. expended per mile 102 persons for fur years
—( Hear, hear)—that would make, over 1,500 miles of railway,
153,000 labourers, instead of 110,000, as his Noble Friend had
calculated ; and, supposing five persons dependent on ecle
of
tqcse labourers, that would make, according to the principle
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, 765,000 people derivinz
their means of subsistence from these works.—(Cheers.)
begged to say that when his Noble Friend estimated the employ-
ment of the people at the rate of 6') per mile, he under-esti-
mated his case, for he had documents in his possession which
showed that the number was much larger. His lion. Friend
the Member for Newark had referred to page 35 of the blue
book containing the proceedings of the Board of Works, and
he also would refer to that volume, in which they would find,
from the memorial of the Lord Mayor of Dublin, that 40,000
persons were, in October, 1846, employed on railroads in Ire-
land ; but in October, 1846, there were only 300 miles of
railroad under the operation of being formed. Now,
taking the number stated in that memorial to be em-
ployed on 300 miles, the same calculation; applied to 1,500
miles, would give employment to 200,000 perseria.—( Hear. )

He concluded, however, that the estimate taken from the data
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the data taken from
the lines of England, Belgium, and France, were extremely
within the limits, and, since he had come the House he had
found, in the Irish Railway Gazette and Conunerc,:al Ad-
vertiser, a statement to the effect that, on the works on the
main line of the Great Southern and Western Railway, 38
miles from Dublin, there were 8,600 men constantly em-
ployed on 47 miles, giving 183 men per mile.--( Hear. ) So
much for the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
that only one-fourth of the capital of a railway was invested
in lahour.—( Hear, hear.) Why, according to the estimates
founded en the expenditure of the English, Belgian, and
French lines, they could not have less than 3 00(1,00(1'.
expended on skilled labour in Ireland under the proposal of his
Noble Friend.—(Cheers.) And, suppose that the navigator
was a man who had a wife and who had a family, not only
would they employ 102 persons per mile for 1,500
miles, but he would show that the estimate they had taken
of five persons maintained by each man's labour was as
much underrated as the general statement of the Noble
Lord. He thought the House must wish that this question
should be fairly put before them ; and he would read for their
information a document full of knowledge of the subject
written in a straightforward spirit, and in the melt perfect,
simplicity, and altogether so conclusive that he was sure they
would net regret the time occupied in reading it. It was a
letter dated February 8, 1847, from one who had much ac-
quiintanca with the subject of railways, and great experience
of Ireland, and who had no knowledge of the Noble Lord to
whom the letter was addressed. He said—
" It is scarcely possible to overrate the benefits which would
result to Ireland from the passing of the Bill now brought into
Parliament by your Lordship. Allow me to trespass shortly
on your Lordship's time while I endeavour to refute two
of the principal objections which appear to be raised against
the measure, which I think the experience I have had in
that country will enable me to do. The first is,
that if railways in Ireland were at once undertaken upon a
large scale, English ' navvies' would be brought in by con-
tractors, and by superseding the labour of the country,
greatly decrease the relief thereby sought to be given to the
existing distress. For the greater part of the last five years
I have been living near Londonderry, executing very large
works, which are peculiarly adapted to the labourers of that
country, when once they are taught, and which a very few
weeks serve to accomplish, namely, the making of very large
embankments to reclaim land from the sea, and on the Lon-
donderry and Cbleraine Railway. On commencing there I
found the difficulties almost insuperable, from the total unac-
quaintance of the people with the nature of such works ; I fir-
tunately persevered, and with beneficial results to them and to
myself. I brought over a few experienced gangers, who, in a
few weeks, instructed the more intelligent, who, in their turn,
taught others; and the men now employed are almost exclu-
sively Irish, and are quite capable of executing any works of
the sort. I have now about 1,000 men employed, and if the
company would furnish the means, I could at once greatly
increase the number, and in a month or six weeks from
this time I could take on between 3,000 and 4,000 more,
and to enable me to do this, I should not require additional
English labourers of any description. There are some works
in which it is the interest of contractors to employ high-priced
labour ; these works, from the nature of the country, are al-
most unknown on the Irish railways. I have, on the Coleraine
line, I believe, almost the only tunnel in Ireland, which is a
very difficult one, being nearly 1,000 yards in length, though
the solid basalt rock. To commence it, I brought over some
experieneed men, and added the necessary number of local
labourers, who very soon became sufficiently expert to con-
tinue the works without such supervision and assistance.
All the Englishmen but three have returned to England,—
the works, with this exception, are carried en exclusively by
Irishmen, entirely to my satisfaction and to that of the resi-
dent engineer of the company. Many of those men are now
earning three shillings per day, and several men have left
me at different times to undertake sub-contracts in other
places, for whick shey have become capable, after two or
three months' instruction, although previously totally unac-
customed to the work. The works, generally, on this line
are of a difficult description. On the Londonderry and En-
niskillen, fifteen miles of which are completed, there are still
45 miles to make, the works being of the ordinary description,
and upon which some thousands of Irish labourers could be
immediarely and beneficially employed. The number of
ho__
Eng-
lishmen now employed by me does not exceed two and a . 1.. f
per cent. on the whole, and these are principally. gi
thaten thee
drivers and mechanics. Another objection raised
counties through which the railways pass are not the most dis-
tressed,
not relieve
and therefore the works on theinit
ir wouldriiost. I believe
those parts of the country
that the comparatively small which
amount reogfudiestress, which till very
lately existed in the neighbourhood ofm Londonderry, has arisen
chiefly, if not solely, from the emp oyeu
on the works of the two railways connected with that city. I
should add, that when I first went there the average price for
per day, but that now, and for a long time
laboturitwia I s .
is Is.
Is. Gd. per day, and in many instances higher.
past,
always found that when I required an in-
crease of labourers the fact soon became known,
and in a very short time they came oat of Con-
naught and the western coast. If all the able-bodied
men remain in those parts, the farmers will of course employ
them first, and thousand.; who cm find no employment must
be fed by charity, or starve ; whereas, if the able-12odied men
came down to the railway works—which, from my own
perience, lam convinced they would, if they wer certain of
employment at good wages—they would afterwards return
with their earnings, and, in the meantime, the farmers would
absorb the whole or greater part of the remaining local labour,
1 and the entire community would be benefited. Previously to
I going to Ireland, I had, during several years, very largecon-
e tracts, both on the London and Birmingham and the Bristol
and Exeter Railways, exceeding in value 500,0001 , and
having frequently
employed above 3,000 men at one time. ' I
mention this fact to satisfy your Lordship that I am not igno-
rant of the comparative difference between works of this sort
in England and Ireland. In these observations which I thus

venture respectfully to submit to your i p ... -.. ----iti sa tisficii
that Mr. Dargan, who has the larq ' iiaarid,
and the other large contractors in i . ~ ,
' -i: . :._ 111,113,
concur." I .-74:; • - —,,. -------=--' -.,. \
Eng' eh labourers in Ireland were on* d ob-timavera 6
of 2.1 per cent. This statement/H(4: fuirr boror out 1, M ,71
Montgomery Martin, than wbpin no o.a knew bett [rag
the state of Ireland. The writer of this letter, IV
Samuel Hemming, was one of :the, reatest contracto
in that country, and he (Mr. Disraft)flptpg tht„ /joust
would allow him to put the statement berbrb thtitt:. It• was a
sufficient answer to the so-called facts and shad.iss?Y 'crbiAtions
heard from the first, again from the second, anal again from
the last Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr. Hemming also
found tbat as more labourers were wanted, the peasantry came

even from Connaught, on the west coast, in search of work.
The farmer was benefited in an equal depoe with the other

clas,es of society; in fact, it Yeas the entire community that
this Bill proposed to benefit.—( Hear, hear.) If they
therefore on that side of the }louse could prove
that the measure would bent tit the community, he

rusted the How would supp.rt it. ; or if the flight lion.
he Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Hon. Mernh>r who

supported him c,uld prove i hat the Bill was adverse to the
interests of the country, he (Mr. Dis!ach) was prepared to
vote against it.—( Hear, hear. ) He thought the House tcaold
agree with him that this document from Mr. Hemming nEs tell
worthy of its attention. He sluswed that the lalyan: employed
was Irish labour ; he showed that the average was only as
per cent, of foreign labour; he told them that they might em-
ploy thousands more on three public works ; he told them that
in two or three weeks these men were capable of making tur:ncls,
and that when he wanted more labour they came from a dis-
tance to obtain it—from Connaught, on the westci it side of
the island. But he (Mr. Disraeli) was told that dies.; navi-
gators were '•gay Lotharios"—that they had come fr% m Eng-
land, where they had left their wives at home. Ile had
shown, however, that they were Irishmen. and that they had
their wives along with them. He would read to the Ifouso
another document he had received that night. It was from a
gentleman well known to many of the Hon. Members around
him—he meant Sir Harvey Bruce. That gentleman, re •
marking on the Chancellor of the Exchequer—it was a
continuation of the Criticism on his unanswerable speech—
(Loud laughter)—said that he sat on the Coleraine
and Londonderry Relief Committee, and he found that the
works going on in that district had greatly relieved the
pressure upon them. He stated that many of the labourers
upon the railways had wives, with families of from eight to
twelve children—( Laughter)—and it was considered a very
small family which did not number more than from three to
four. The labour was cheap, and the land, in many cases,
could be had for 600.!. a mile. There was new data for the

Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he wished
to ascertain the proportion paid for labour to that for land.
—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman said that none

but unskilled labourers were employed on railways,but the fact
had been proved to be otherwise. It was said also that moneys
had already been advanced to widen the streets of a certain
corrupt corporation ; why what was it to them if that money
had never been returned? He had no doubt th it the Govern-
ment of that day had had the support of two Members from►
that very corporation. Let the Government meet them with
facts and correct data, and let those decide on the merits.

Let them not talk to him about the broad streets of Cork,
while they were considering the broad guage of Ireland. It
had been said that the measure of his Noble Friend would

only make the half of Ireland rich.—(hear, hear.) Why,
did eny Government who were ever in officer or
did those who were now in office ever propose a measure cal..
culated to make one-half of Ireland rich ? If the Noble Lord

had succeeded in doing so much, he thought that he had really
done enough for one session.—( Cheers.) Multifarious as had
been the objection: offered to the measure, it would be found
that they all ranged themselves nnder three great heads, and it
was a curious fact that each of those great heads were repre-
sented by three Chancellors of the Exchequer. The first, the
real Chancellor of the Exchequer, said, that under the opera-
tion of this Bill there would be no commensurate employment
of labour. That objection lie had disposed of. Another objec-
tion was represented by a second Chancellor, who represented
an objection grounded on the monetary system. The
third Chancellor represented the great principle of
non-interference with private enterprise. The first of
those objections had been disposed of ; he would now come
to the second objection—the monetary crisis, and the danger to
the State. He would deal with that objection as with the
other, not by abstract reasoning, but by an appeal to facts,
which he would lay before the llouse, and leave the House
to form its own judgment upon the subject. The re-
presentative of that objection referred the House to the situa-
tion of France and Belgium, and warned the Howe against
the danger of raising money by loan for railroad enterprise.
Now let the House refer to Belgium. In the year ISIO the
Government of Belgium determined to create railways by vir-
tue of a grant from the State, and the State granted, in round

number:, 6,000,000'., of whirl► RUM 2,7 00,000/. `Was instantly
raised by loan by the St ate, although its revenue did not at that
time exceed the scm of 3,330,000/. This state, with a revenue

of 3,300,00(1. determined to create railways by a grant of pub-
lic money to the extent of 6,000,000/., and at (ince, corn-

menced by a loan of 2,700,0001., winch sum was raised at
the race ot 5 per cent. interest, and that loan cost the country
Se. 6s. Bd. as interest on each 1110/. Two years after; in the
year 1842, Belgium raised a second loan of 1,0,;0,0;01. as part
of the original grant of 6,000,000/. ; and in pursuance of the
first loan of 2,700.1.00/., and at what rate of interest would the
House suppose that this second loan was contracted at the rate
of 4'. 17s. 4d. per cent. So that after taco years, nntwithstane-
nig the alleged depreciation of the Government securities they
actually rose in value 1114 per. cent. And these sums were
received ashen the whole annual revenue of the country was
3,300,0301. Look then next at France. In the year 184:2
France had a floating debt ot 17,500,000/., in consequence of
the fortifications of Paris, and it was under those circumstances
that the Minister proposed to the Chambers a grant of
12,1.00,0001. sterling for the construction of railways in France,
so that there was a debt of 19,000,0001 to be added to the
fleeting debt of 17,500,0001. ; of this sum 18,000,0001. was
raised by loan, and the balance of 1,0e0,00(7. was raised by a
royal bond, similar to the Exchequer-bills of this country.
In the year 1841 the proceeds of indirect taxation in France
was something like 23,8:;0,000/., but what was the proceeds of
indirect taxation in the tear 1846? Why, it amounted to
32,000,000/. or 33,600,00/. sterling, leaving a balance in
favour cf the two years of 6,800,000'. SuTh, then, was the
consequence of the support which was given to industry by
the construction of these railways under circumstances in-
finitely more difficult than any the House had now to deal
with.—(Cheers.) France actually created a floating debt ef
nearly 40,000,0001., which has been paid over and over again.
France had derived upwards of 4,500,0001. from the traffic cf
her goods and merchandise upon these lines of railway, bur.
what had she not gained in her revenue by indirect taxation.
eatie.ed by an increased consumption of goods, and the stimulus
which was given to industry?— (Cheers. ) This, then, was
that Belgium and France brought forward by the lion. Mem-
ber for Portsmouth (Mr. F. Baring) in order to school his
Noble Friend (Lord G. Bentinck). When he
( Mr. Baring) was Chancellor of the Exchequer,
could ha refer to a revenue like that ? It was
enough to make his mouth water to hear it. These
Chancellors of the Exchequer seemed to think that the mea-
sure was to be disposed of by the mere recklessness of an
official inse di.rit.—(Cheers.) But then it had been said that
the rates of fares were considerably lower on these French and.
Belgian lines than they would be in Ireland. He held in his
hand the French tariff of railways, from which it appeared
that the first-class trains of France were as 166 tq 144 on the
Ulster Railway; the second-class as 125 to 100 on the Dublin
and Drogheda; the third-class as 92 and a fraction to st;
on the Ulster Railway. Why the fares in France were actually
higher than they were in Ireland. In France every railway
was leased to a company by the Government for forty years ;
Government could have no supervision over it until the expira-
tion of that period. In the Bill just brought in by the officer
()filer Majesty's Government it was proposed to exercise super-
vMon at the end of every ten years, and if the fares got to-)
high upon the Irish railways, the Government would have the
power to reduce them. Then it had been said by the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer that only 25 men would be employed
upon each mile of railway, and this was one of the many as-
sertions made in the Right Hon. Member's unanswerable speech.
There was a gentleman going about the City—a most respect-
able man—a friend of the Chancellor of the Exchequer—
representing that he was the anonymous correspondent whom
the Chancellor of the Exchequer quoted the other night, and
that the statement of that Right Hon. Gentleman had given
him the greatest distress, because when he told the Right. Hon.
Gentleman that there were only twenty-five men employed
upon a railway per mile, he meant permanently employed.—
( Hear and Laughter.) The truth was, this anonymous cot-
respondent represented that the Noble Lord who introduced tte
measure had under-rated the number of men employed in the
construction of a railway. Another and another still succeeded,
and still he had a third Chancellor of the Exchequer to deal
with. lie had dealt with the Chancellor of the Exchequer
who had called upon them not to believe this eipital in labour ;
he had dealt with the Chancellor of the Exchequer who
warned them, with France and Belgium before their
eyes, that borrowing this money would create a
financial crisis; and he came now to the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, whu, under no consideration, would
consent to interfere with private enterprise. Now, what was
private enterprise? He thought it highly important that their
should come to some understanding upon that question. it
was a remarkable circumstance that every night they -saw
statesmen who were present, or had been late- advisers of the
Crown, rise end denounce all interference with private
enterprise, and yet every night they found them sup-
porting measures adverse to that principle. Therefore if
they could arrive at a clear and distinct understandinee
of the definition of the meaning of the term private enterprise.
it might tend to throw a great light upon that subject. What
was meant by private enterprise? In this country it was
pretty well understood. It meant the operations and ex-
ertions of private individuals to bring about certain commer-
cial undertakings. Suppose any man wished to construct a
railway in this country, all he had to do was to calculate the
cost. Now he knew the cost of Parliamentary expenses, the
cost of land, and the rate of labour, and he therefore had,
some data upon which to calculate the estimate,
while he had the same facilities of calculating profits ; com-
mercial enterprise in that sense could be carried out in this
country, but how different was it in Ireland. There the lan
was encumbered almost beyond comprehension, and its
h;
pur-
chase might lead to public rancour and private animosity.
capitalist had to employ labour at doubtful rates
could not go to church or chapel without subjectingweli that the
em-
ployer to personal animosity. lie knew very well
n threatening
moment he had commenced his operations
w
the principal
—labourtehres !
notices were served upon him, might be shot from
agents employed upon thel t woks
well that these were
behind hedges. The
principles—commercial principle had not
might be the cuse of
ace
mnaocry, t hoer tamei,apitseto
mnoatdeciotms
wmaeyrciinalfreplarnindec,laPbPleui
inquire.
such. a stateit of
mightthingbseh toat wProtestant
upon which private was
ascendancy, but be that how it might there was
enterpriseno doubt the
commercial principlebased
had not taken root in Ireland, and the question then arose
whether political principles ought not to be brought into
operation to guide the commercial.—(Hear, hear.) That
towwhfhaesinincohntt-hoi enihtneetrerfarefrtewieornaensicieleiotpth.ropefprriravir‘at,ehatdeteee
enterprise.
e illnulttrhheeleanwdo,(uibuledecsadtuierye
there was none ; and if he wanted anything to prove this, he
could find that proof in the speech of a late Chancellor of the
most of the existing
Exchequer. That Bight Hon. Gentleman told them that
railways in Ireland had been undertaken
by English capitalists. Well, that only proved to them that
traeptiei)nisrre:es. meet the
the way in
they were profitable undertakings, while it proved that the
reason why they were stopped at present was that
there were political principles connected with them
over which these capitalists could have no control.
If Ireland were to be redeemed, or she were to feel the benefit,
there must be something more powerful than private enterprise.
If they trusted to private enterprise, Ireland would remain
where she was now three centuries to come.—(Hear, hear.)
The measure of his Noble Friend would supply to Ireland what
he believed private enterprise could not supply. They had
been told that it was a party measure ; but he, thought the
course of the debate had shown that it was not a party mea-
sure. The course of the debate had shown that most of them
in that House agreed that it would be an advantage to hate
railways in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Although they
were prepared to show the House that it could
stimulate and employ a large amount of labour in.
Ireland, that it would open up the immense coal field of
Mallu, he thought it ought to be admitted that it was important
to the Irish people that the measure should be carried. Rail-
ways in Ireland would create new fields of industry, new
markets, new residents, and would give an impetus to trade,