The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-26 00:00:00

not be able to accede to his views. Bat he would say,
in joining in the opinion of a late writer, let them return
to the people their Church property, let them return
all that bad been taken away, and they would
have ample funds not only for the sustenance
of the Church, but for the support of the poor, and for
the education of the people—(Hear, hear)--and this
would have the greatest effect in putting down religious
differences. But there was another subject to which he
desired to call the attention of her Majesty's Govern-
ment, and that was the provision which was made under
this clause for the support of a stipendiary magistracy,
and the payment of the several officers under the Bill.
The operation of the Bill was defective in many respects,
and he thought it was advisable to make some better
provision than this, especially for the safe carrying out
of the Bill.
Mr. LEFROY was quite satisfied with the clause in
the Bill, and did not think it would operate in the way
described by the Hon. Member for Kilkenny.
Mr. CALLAGHAN did not think the magistrates of
Ireland so unobjectionable in their bygone history as to
warrant the Government in conferring on them any
additional privileges. He wished the ex•ogicio guardians
were removed altogether. He should for these reasons
support the amendment of his Hon. Friend the Member
for Kilkenny.—(Cries of " Divide, divide.")
Mr. V. STUART supported the amendment.
Major LAYARD considered that the clause would
materially operate against the proper carrying out of
the Bill. The amendment he considered absolutely ne-
cessary, as there were in Ireland 2,065 Pro-
testant magistrates, and but 410 Roman Catholic
magistrates. In three of the counties there were
no local Roman Catholic magistrates. He thought,
therefore, that the people of Ireland would be dissatis-
fied with the Bill if the clause remained in it. In his
opinion it was the " Chandos" clause of the Bill. He
deprecated the conduct of the Noble Lord (Lord G.
Bentinck) in coming down and making gross charges
against the Government.
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN supported the clause as
it stood.
Mr. B. ESCOTT rose, but owing to the noise that
prevailed and the cries for a division, the purport of his
observations could not be heard in the gallery. Finding
the House disinclined to hear him, owing to its impatience
for a division, he moved that the Chairman report pro-
gress. The galleries were cleared, but as the Hon.
Gentleman withdrew his motion, the Committee imme-
diately divided upon the amendment, when there ap-'
peared---
For the clause
For the amendment
Majority in favour of the clause
Mr. SHAW then moved, " That the justices resident in
the poor-law unions shall be ex did° members of the
board of guardians of such unions ; and whereas, under
the provisions of the said Act of the first and second year
of her Majesty's reign, tithe composition is liable to be
rated only as and with the hereditaments upon which
such composition is charged, and it is expedient that
such provisions shall be amended ; be it therefore
enacted, that from and after the passing of this Act, com-
position for tithe, or rent charge in lieu thereof,
shall be deemed to be a separate rateable hereditament
under the said Act, and shall be distinctly rated as such.
And be it enacted, that in all cases of rent charge in
lieu of impropriate tithes, the annual amount of such rent
charge, after deducting therefrom all rates, taxes, and
public charges, if any, imposed on the owner in respect
thereof, shall be deemed the net annual value thereof ;
and that in all cases of rent charge in lieu of tithes,
payable to any spiritual person, the net annual value
thereof upon which the rate for the relief of the poor,
under the said recited Act or this Act shall be
made, shall be deemed to be the amount of such rent
charge or composition, as ascertained and valued by the
Ecclesiastical Commissioners of Ireland, for the purpose
of a certain tax or assessment upon Church property,
under an Act passed in the third and fourth year of the
reign of his late Majesty King William IV., intituled
'An Act to alter and amend the laws relating to the
Church Temporalities of Ireland,' after the deduc-
tions and allowances therein directed to be made, and
after deducting also the portion of the assessment or
tax chargeable in respect of such rent charge, under the
said Act. And be it enacted, that the rate made upon
each rent charge or composition for tithe, shall be paid
by the person in the receipt or enjoyment thereof, and
may be recovered by all the ways and means by which
any rate made on any lessor may be recovered. And be
it enacted, that from and after the passing of
this Act the net annual value of all rateable heredita-
meets, other than rent charge or composition for
tithe shall be deemed to be the rent for which, one
year with another, the same might, in their actual state,
be reasonably expected to let from year to year, all the
rates, taxes, and public charges, if any, and the probable
average cost of repairs, insurance, and the other ex-
penses necessary to maintain the hereditaments in their
actual state, and the rent charge or composition for tithe,
being assumed, for the purpose of estimating such annual
value, to be paid by the tenant."
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that as the Bill at present
stood there could not be a majority of ex-officio guardians,
and the jealousy apprehended by the Hon. Member
would not exist with respect to their numbers. He
hoped that the Hon. Member would withdraw the
amendment.
Mr. SHAW consented to withdraw the clause.
After a few wards from Sir W. JAMES,
Mr. J. O'CONNELL moved, that after the word
" magistrate," the words " whether for county or
borough" should be inserted.
After a few words from Mr. Smith O'Brien, Mr. J.
O'Connell, and Mr. Morgan J. O'Connell,
Mr. P. HOWARD said he thought the alteration in
the poor-law would give more power to the ex officio
guardians than any other measure.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that, after the decision which
had been como to, he did not expect much support to his
present proceeding. Still, that the people of Ireland
might know who were for them, and who were against
their rights, he must put them again to the necessity of
another division.
The gallery was then cleared for a division, when there
appeared—
For the clause 133
Against it
Majority in favour of the clause —ll2
On the 12th clause being put,
Mr. VERNON SMITH said that under the 78th
clause, there was a power to enforce the orders of
the boards of guardians, and be did not therefore see
that there was any security for obtaining the rates. He
should therefore move for the insertion of words which
should refer to the 78th section of the Irish Poor-law
Act, and giving them power to levy the penalties
made payable under the 102 d section of that Act. He
thought that this was a great deal better than giving
power to dissolve the boards of guardians, which, under
the present phase of the Bill, the Commissioners would
possess. At present there was no efficient control, and
the penalty imposed was not likely to be in any way in-
strumental in enforcing the provisions of the Act. He
would rather, therefore, that words should be introduced
for that effect.
Sir G. GREY said the only difference between the
present clause of the present Act and that to which the
Hon. Member had referred was, that in the former case
the Commissioners had simply the power of dissolving
the boards of guardians, while under the present Bill they
could, without dissolving the board, impose a penalty of
201. for non-compliance with their orders.
Mr. HAMILTON said that the Committee should not
legislate on this Bill as if the boards of guardians in
Ireland had not done their duty. By a report of the
Poor-law Commission for the year ending 31st
December, 1845, it was stated that the general condition
of the unions was never more satisfactory. When such
general censure was poured out on them, he thought
it right to state this fact.
Mr. V. SMITH thought it was strange to see such a
large amount of arrears in the rates if the boards of
guardians had done their duty. Either this was the fault
of t he boards of guardians, or the rate could not be raised in
Ireland. They must adopt either the one or the other
alternative.
Mr. SHAW defended the boards of guardians. He
thought, with regard to the rates, that in many cases it
was wholly impossible to raise them, owing to the desti-
tution which prevailed. He was of opinion that,
under the out-door relief principle lately adopted,
it would be found wholly impossible in many
parts of Ireland to collect the rates, and he now warned
the House of the results which would attend the ope-
ration of this Bill. The law they were then about to
pass could not be carried into effect in the western coun-
ties of Ireland.
Mr. ARCHBOLD said the expense of these poor
houses was not very great.
Mr. POULETT SCROPE said, there were many
great proprietors who had not paid one farthing of the
money for which they had been rated, and he thought
that the payment of their arrears should be enforced.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
thought his Right Honourable Friend would find
it very difficult to oppose this Bill on such
grounds. If any Honourable Gentleman would take
the trouble to read the correspondence on this subject
he would be convinced of what he asserted. He trusted,
therefore, that his Hon. Friend would not persevere in
his present course.
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN could not, in justice to
Ireland, act in any other way than he had done.
Mr. P. SCROPE said, if any one had read the blue
books respecting the workhouses and the raising of the
rates, he would find the truth of what be had stated

about the non-payment of the rates..... All that he had
stated about Lord Lucan and others would be found
perfectly true.
Mr. SHAW could not agree wish the Hon. Member
who had just spoken.
Mr. BELLEW entirely differed from the view taken,
and the statements made, by the Right Hon. Recorder
for Dublin.

Mr. SHAW explained.
Mr. V. SMITH would not divide upon the clause
after what had fallen from the Right Hon. the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer.
The amendment was negatived without a division, and
clauses 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, and 17 were agreed to.
Mr. SIIAW wished to know whether Government
would proceed further with the Bill that evening?;
Sir GEORGE GREY replied that he was ready to go
on up to half-past six.
Mr. SHAW said, in that case, he would proceed to
move his amendment, of which he had given notice
namely, " That the justices resident in the Poor-law
unions shall be er-qfficio members of the board of guar-
dians of such unions."
On the clause being brought up,
Sir G. GREY said that the Irish title to property was
placed precisely on the same footing as English pro
perty in this country. The next clause provided for the
deficiency that had been felt by the Hon. Recorder for
Dublin. But there was one difficulty, and that was
the vagueness which existed as to the declaration for
where a curate was necessary and where he was not.
If he would allow:the principle of the law to be assimi-