The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-30 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT

HOUSE OF LORDS, March 29.
Their Lordships met at Five o'clock.
Messengers from the Commons brought up severa;
Bills.

BOARD OF WORKS—(IRELAND.)
Lord BROUGHAM also presented a petition from
Mr. James Bolger, civil engineer, of Talbot-street,
Dublin, and of Austin Friars, in London, complaining
of what he termed a system of jobbing which was being
practised by the officers of the Board of Works in
Ballinasloe, and stating that upwards of 70,000/. had
been expended by the Board of Works in that dis-
trict. H
He stated that it had been intimated that if
the engineer employed a person who was in the con-
fidence of the Board of Works that he would have the
contract even at a good price, and it was intimated that
Mr. John Macmahon, who had married the illegitimate
daughter of some officer connected with the Board of
Works, was in the confidence of that board. Under the
contract which had been made under this intimation many
thousand pounds had been expended. This the petitioner
stated was called a job; he apologised to their Lord-
ships for the term, but he believed that the proper
epithet ought to have been used, and it ought to have
been called a fraud. There had been 10,0001. spent on
the several contracts, and although the Government had
allowed 100,000/., there was a sum of 90,000/. of which
there was no account. The petitioner stated that when
his Noble Friend the Duke of Wellington was in office,
he had saved the country as much as 60,0001., by making
representations to his Grace.
REMOVAL OF THE IRISH POOR FROM
ENGLAND.
Lord BROUGHAM would take that opportunity of
correcting a misrepresentation of what he had said the
other night with respect to the removal of the Irish
paupers from Liverpool and Glasgow. He had been re-
presented as saying that the Irish paupers should be re-
moved at once from those towns. He found, on con-
sultation with Mr. Rushton, that there was crest diffi-
culty in the law, for although there was a power of
transferring Irish and Scotch paupers beyond the water,
and beyond the border, yet the doing so was so beset
with difficulty that the law could hardly be acted upon.
He trusted, therefore, that some declaratory Act would
shortly be brought in to remedy the evil.
Lord DESART said, in reference to a statement
which the Noble and Learned Lord had made the other
night, that the landholders of Ireland, or their agents,
had given money to the paupers on their estates, to
enable them to go to Liverpool and such places in
England, he had written to persons residing in various
parts of Ireland upon the subject, and only in one
instance had he ascertained that there was any founda-
tion for the statement of the Noble Lord.
Lord BROUGHAM said he made the statement upon
the authority of Mr. Rushton, of Liverpool, who had
transmitted to him the reports of three police inspectors,
in which it was stated that many of the Irish paupers of
Liverpool had admitted that they had received from
three shillings to five shillings from their landlords or
their agents to enable them to get to Liverpool.
The people could not come over for nothing ; it might
be said that the pressure of the famine had sent them
over, but then the famine could not pay their passage.
Then it had been said that the steam-boat proprieters
paid them to come over, but it was absurd to suppose
that they would pay them 2s. 6,1. to come over,
for the sake of getting 2s. 6d. to take them
back again. He had been informed that
numbers of the tenants had received 51. each
to tear or burn dow n their cabins for the sake of enab
ling their landlords thus to get rid of them. He could
not help making a passing allusion to the praiseworthy
conduct of the Saciety of Friends; they had already
raised among themselves upwards of 50,000/. to-
wards the relief of the Irish poor, and, upon the
occasion of the fast day, they not thinking it right
to keep that day sacred, had given the half of
their earnings and profits to the same charitable
object. He quite agreed with the Society of Friends
that works of mercy were better than works of sacrifice.
A Noble Friend of his on the bench was travelling his
circuits upon the fast day, and upon arriving at one of
the towns in Wales, he found it quite impossible to ob-
tain a morsel of bread, or anything in the shape of viands,
so completely had the zeal of the Welsh people to keep
the fast rummaged the whole of the town.—(Laughter.)
A NOBLE LORD—His Lordship kept the last.
BANKRUPTCY AND INSOLVENCY LAWS.
Lord ASHBURTON presented a petition from the
merchants and traders of the city of London, praying
their Lordships to alter or amend the laws relating to
Bankruptcy and Insolvency. The Noble Lord consi-
dered the petition so important that he would move
that it should be read.
The Clerk at the table, therefore, read the petition.
Lord BROUGHAM expl lined that the newspapers
which had stated that his opinion had changed on the
subject of imprisonment for debt were in error. His
opinion upon that subject had undergone no change.
NATIONAL SCHEME OF EDUCATION.
Lord DESART presented several petitions against the
Government scheme of education.
NATIONAL POOR-RATE.

Lord WHARNCLIFFE presented a petition, praying
for the enactment of a national poor rate. In doing so,
he said that he was still of the opinion which he had
expressed last year, that it would be quite unadvisable
to enter into the question of the settlement of the poor
until the whole matter was under the consideration of
Parliament, for if they came to any ill advised altera-
tion of the Act of last year, he felt assured that it would
lead to great confusion and difficulty for those who had
to administer the law.
SERVICE IN THE ARMY.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose to ask the
questions of which he had given notice. He had,
therefore, to inquire whether the Bill now introduced
into the House of Commons by her Majesty's Govern-
ment for limiting the time of service in the army has
the sanction and approbation of the Commander-its Chief,
icnoimo ens hnadvaet recommendation
nt ot a
kheenr
manadjeisftyit,shGasoovreirgniranaetnetdoornif
ahnisyorpe
by any board of general officers, or other military
authorities on the measure. Whether it is the intention of
her Majesty's Ministers to advise her Majesty to issue
her royal warrant, as in October, 1806, for fixing and
raising the pensions of non-commissioned officers and
soldiers who become entitled to their discharge by rea-
son of expiration of certain periods of service, viz., to
non-commissioned officers to ls.l Od., to privates Is.,
thus returning to the standard thought advisable at that
period, when limited service was first introduced, in-
stead of remaining at the diminished pensions now esta-
blished.
Earl GREY said that although no inconvenience
might arise to the public service by giving an explicit
reply to the question, yet it was plainly improper that
confidential communications between the Ministers and
the Horse Guards should be brought before the House,
and he could, therefore, return no answer at all. With
respect to the second question, he had to say that no
such warrant as that to which the Noble Marquis al-
luded had been issued, or was intonded to be issued.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY had then to move
for copies of all the communications between her
Majesty's Ministers and the Horse Guards with
respect to the term of enlistment for service
and also with respect to the increase of pen-
sions, according to the minute of October 18, 1846.
As the oldest general officer in the service, he felt bound
to perform this duty : it was a duty he did not shrink
from, because he felt confident that nine out of ten of the
general officers of' the army were opposed to this Bill.
He thought they had a right to know what were the
opinions of the general officers of the army on the sub-
ject. There was not at present a single military officer
in the Cabinet. In matters of law, in the navy, or in
the church, the opinions of the dignataries, or the offi-
cers at the head of the department were studied 1 but
with respect to the army a great and fundamental change
was now, to be brought about under the recommendation
of the Secretary at War, who was, no doubt, a very
respectable sort of gentleman, but certainly knew no
more about the army than one of the clerks at the table.
He said that was not the first time that a limited service
had been proposed. A similar proposition was made in
1806, and before that in 1757. Had the present mea-
sure resembled that of Mr. Wyndham, who proposed
pensions for the soldiers after their service had expired,
there would have been some encouragement for the
army. But by this measure it was proposed that at the
end of ten years the soldier could demand his discharge.
Now, only let them suppose this arrangement had been
in existence during the war. Suppose the Duke of
York had had a number of these young men from twenty
to twenty-five years of age, what would have been the
consequence? Why that army, after their first campaign,
was ordered to Copenhagen, thence to Corunna ; from
Corunna to Vimeira, and thence to Talavera. Such
was the service which these forces saw. How soon, he
asked, could a recruit be fitted for his duty ? Sir C.
Napier, an authority on such a subject, had said that an
infantry soldier could be fitted for his duties completely
in three or four years ; but he (the Marquis of London-
derry), as a cavalry officer, took upon him to say that a
good cavalry soldier could not be made under
five or six years. He could not speak of the artil-
lery ; but if a cavalry soldier could not be per
fectly fitted under that time, an artillery soldier
could not be prepared in a shorter period.
Their cavalry was not like the cavalry of continental
countries, for the officers by purchases or promotions
were always changing, and great irregularity and em-
barrassment would be the consequence of the soldiers
being allowed, at the expiration of ten years, to retire
from the service. It should be remembered that it
required five years of hard discipline to make a good
soldier, it should be remembered also that under the
present admirable regulations it would only require a
mero trifle to buy a man off. The best mode of getting
men for the service was the men that would stand by
them the longest—British men and British bayonets.—
and he sincerely hoped Government would not, for the
sake of false theories, go against all practice. He
thought Government could do no better good thttn by

NATIONAL SCHEME OF EDUCATION.
Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from the
Protestant Dissenters of 'Tunbridge Wells against the
Government plan of education. The petitioners sug-
gested, that if the version of the Scriptures, as au-
thorised by the Protestant churches, were allowed in
school, the benefits of the Government plan might be
extended to all religious denominations, with the single
exception of Socinians and Roman Catholics. He (Lord
Brougham) did not coincide in the prayer of the peti-
tioners, although he respected the feelings which gave
rise to their objections. He should wish, on a future.
occasion, to know from the Noble Lord opposite if the
Government had taken into consideration the same idea
that was suggested by these petitioners.
Lord DENMAN presented a petition to the same
effect from Nottingham.
ELECTORAL DIVISIONS (IRELAND).
Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from the
rate-payers of the electoral divisions of Wexford, com-
plaining of the present mode of levying the poor-rate.
lie also presented a petition from Tougham to the same
effect.