The Sun.
London, England, 1823-06-20 00:00:00

POOR'S SETTLEMENT.

The Poor's.Settlement Bill was read a second time, and or.
&rata be committed on Wednesday.
'SLAVE TRADE.

Mr. BENNErpresented a petition-from Sexham against
the Slave Trade.--Ordered to be printed.

DISTILLATION.

Mr. BENNET presented a petition from certain Owners'aml
Occupiers of Land in the. County of Northumberland, praying
for the repeal of the restrictions on the distillation of the Spirits
of the finest quality in this country.
After a few words from Mr. CURWEIi, the petition was or—
dered to be printed.
PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.

Mr. JAMES presented a petition, signed by 3107 inhabi-
tants of 'Newcastle-upon-Tyne, praying for a Reform in Par-
liament, for Annual Elections, Universal Suffrage, and vote by
Ballot. The Hon. Gentleman stated Tit to be the opinion of
the petitionerein which he concurred, that an freemen had a
right to :mist in making the laws In person,'er by direct repre-
carnation, which they were expected to obey. He was sorry he
did not see the Hon. Member for Bramber In his place, who
had so often exerted his great talents in opposition to Negro
Slavery. He (Mr. James) had it in his power to do something.
towards emancipating:the Blacks having had the misfortunes
to succeed toestates in the Westlndies.which had been purchased
by his ancestors. But before he did this he must make some
bargain with the Hon. Gentleman (the Member for liramber,)
which should bind him to use his best efforts to abolish Slavery
among the Whites. The Hon. Gentleman in that case must
cease to support the Government as he had done, in such mea-
sures as the six Acts for instance. He then instituted a com-
parison between the situation of the lower classes In this
country, and the Slaves in the West Indies, anti declared, all
circumstances considered, If the latter were placed in the
situation of the former, that he thought, by -Heaven I the
exchange would be against them. The English Government
deserved credit for the efforts which it had made to induce
Foreign Powers to abandon the Slave Trade. But he thought
before they claimed liberty for a race proverbially ignorant,
that they would have done well to require the Despots of the
Continent to make their own countrymen free, and the Minis..
tem of this country ought to have set them the example by
communicating the blessings of freemen to those who like the
present Petitioners complained of the frequent suspension of
the Habeas Corbus Act, of excessive taxation, and the other
evils of the present system, and especially of the mischievous
consequences of the wickedly called" Restriction Act of 1707,"
and the " Act of Confiscation," passed in 1017.
Sir I. COFFIN thought the Hon. Gentleman and the refl.
tioners must labour under some mental delusion. He bad never
seen people more fat, more flourishing, and apparently more
contented in any part of Europe or in America, than those he
had met with at the place from which this Petition was pre-
sented.
.11Ir. JAMES, in pesenting.the Petition, put part of It to.

wards the Clerk, but the greater part,of it fell from the table
and rolled towards toe door.
The spEAKER--" The Hon. Gentleman will have the
goodness to bring up the Petition."—(A laugh.)
Mr. JAMES lifted the Petition, which was very bulky, on
the tattle, and on moving that it should be printed, took occa-
sion to remark that the inhabitants of Newcastle, who had been
represented to be so sleek and contented, to all appearance,
must have been that portion of them who lived on the taxes.—
The Petition was ordered to be printed.
MIDDLESEX COUNTY COURT.
Mr. ABERCROMBY, in the absence of his Noble Friend,
the Member for Northampton, presented a Petition, signed by
9,625 freeholders, Housekeepers, and others, in the County of
Middlesex, praying for the extension of the jurisdiction of the
County Court. From the satisfactory manner in which the
business of that Court was carried on, it was conceived that it
might be desirable to enlarge its powers, so that debts to the
amount of ten pounds, -or at all events to that of five might
there be recovered. _ _ _

The Petition was read and ordered to be printed.
CASE OF MR. BUTT.
Mr. HOBHOUSE seeing the Attorney and Solicitor-Gene-
ral in their places, wished to call their attention to the case of
an individual (Mr. Butt) whose name was button well known,
but whose case, in his opinion, peculiarly demanded the most
serious consideration. It would be in the recollection of the
House that Mr.. Butt had brought actions against Sir N. Conant
and Mr. Newman, the late keeper of Newgate, for false im-
' prisonment. The Jury gave & verdict of one shilling da-
mages, and the proceedings were thus quashed. The expences
incurred by Sir 'Nicholas Conant and Mr. Newman, in con-
sequence of, these actions being brought, had been paid by
the Treasury. •• This, he contended, was against the law, and
he would now Thew the evil consequence which thence re.
stilted, as they had been painfully experienced by Mr.
Butt. When that individual appeared to pay the costs, Sir
Nicholas Conant and 3lr. Newman declined receiving them,
as they had been" paid by Government. He then applied to
My. Justice Richardson, and the case was arguedat Chambers
•by Mr. Sergeant Vaughan, .but no relief was gained. Mr.
Butt had gone to Lord Sidinotith, but was told that he was not
entered as a debtor on the Treasury Books. He had applied
to Mr. Sheriff Waitlunan, whoie after consulting a Solicitor and
a Barrister, told him that he'liettim means of relieving him.
After this 3lr. Butt petitioned the two Houses of Parliament,
who relieved him in the .usual, way—that was, they gave him
no relief at all On the occasion of the Coronation, he had
hoped to be liberated, but that even brought no relief to him.
At last, both Mr. Butt's defendants and the Solicitor died.
Mr. Butt then applied to young Mr. Conarit, and this was the
answer he received—" Had you been actually indebted to the
late Sir Nathaniel. Conant, I might have been able to serve
you; but, as I the action was defended by him solely at
the expence of the Treasury, it is to that office you must
apply, and so I trust you will see that I cannot inter.
fere." Here was direct proof that the expence was paid
by the Treasury but if further proof was wanted, he could
'supply it. He could prove that the Treasury had, singularly
enough, offered to let Mr. Butt take the benefit of the Insol-
vent Debtors' Act. A letter from Mr. Arbuthnot gave this
reply to an application which Mr. Butt had made :—" With
respect to the letter addressed to you by Mr. Motile and the
Treasury on the first ult., I am commanded by my Lords Com-
inissioners of the Treasury to announce that, provided you
think proper to take the benefit of the Insolvent Debtors' Act,
my Lords Commissioners will offer no opposition to your doing'
se .?" He wished to know what right had the Lords Commis.;
sinners of the Treasury to act thus ? Such conduct he main-
talned was in direct violation of the-act of maintenance. If'
such,a course of proceeding were sanctioned, law might be
turnedinto a most fearful engine of oppression. Mr. Butt had
been confined 26 months and 13 days for a debt which he had
offered tri_ptl.- •
The ,SOL =OA-GENERAL. denied that such offer had
' beefi made'. • •
114 L .411011.1101.1ki& begged perden, but Mr-Butt had offered
twpanand he begged to ask if the Learned Gentleman, with
All That modesty which initially. belonged, to ,the legal
would maintain that the Treasury had a right.. by paying cost;
fin stitlk4iiiie, inernaike the creditor of an individinti?-:-.
Whether.Nr. AlufrAsid.offered to pay oz: not, dbl t)oit alter the
fact that ih'4' Treasury haillpiiid the charges of the suit of an in.
H 0 Ontendell tbst MOnlitroll**CV had been comp.mined ; that an individual had been grossly injured, and that it
became the ..duty that
.ifouse, efeadually 4o guard, against
the recurrence of any thing of the kind, !He asserted that pay.
mem, had beett Offered: r. 'Be ti'hatd'tendered'a Coluirildaff
bond for 4004. wief4 be said tht. was bad end of no value
'now, but it wits Shit's() it the' peri Ito which lie referred.-
Fie offerati.to,pr Air.
praokof what her..lankedvanced in the
hand *Thing of r. Arbuthnot, Mr. Maule, and Mr. Conant,
and coneludaijil'lleseuting a petition from, 311,:, Butt, setting
forth the circumstances of the came, and praying the House to
take such steps, itisl they shoUld. deem' necessary to prevent a'
recurrence of tile evil. .-
'l'he'titA:lt n'etIf:GENER AL complained of the conduct
of the Hon. Gentlemanlin laripging thisieubject forward, with-
, out giving notice dins:intention to do so on that occasion.-...
.()n a ft*Peg 'who applied to a Learned Gentleman op.
b
-posite to coninienicate to the lion. Member for NVestminster
is wish :to o present when !the
petition was presented. For
the last week he had 'attended there day after day, with the
eorreSpinutenee Whidi Mr. Butt had had with the Treastirk.
Now it, accidentally l!SPPe9fil !itt, it mile not in his possession,
or he'coidit have WtHeiatistliCtiOrt otthe House, and as
he thought,
toAlie satisflieligiliffXhe liOn. Gentleman himself,
that the greatest moderatibn had been used towards Mr. Butt,
and .that ..this.vras adthittol hylMri Butt himself. He would
ihorily,state the case; Alt. Bout after being convicted in the
Court of Xing's Bentlif' hid 'libelled' on Bird EllenbOrough,
and deaciibedhim large
posting* bine which had been snick
up in the most nubile part* of the metropolis;• -1
to have imposeu
a heavy.fine :him (Mr. Ilutti)
money inlocket. A
his Orin p Ith A- view of putting the
1 11.,,,ifir
libel had been sent fortis
by Mr.
,Butt on the late Lord Londonderry.: In consequence
Of this 3lr. Butt had been apprehended by order. of the Se-
cretary of State, and taken before Sir Nathaniel
Rail, being refused, he was commi.e.,
sa,e to Newgate In con.
sequence of 'this -it was that 14 r. 'Butt had tho. ht ug pro-
per to
„brinkith
action,* against Sir Nathaniel Conant and .Mr.
Neiman. e cases came. .on, and after being most elabo-
rately:argued verdicts were
R.ven against Mr. Butt. After
this, 3lr.Butt could not pay the coats, was it just to leave
Sir N. Conant and Mr. Newman to pay out of their salaries
the expencee incurred in defending actions brought against
them in consequence of their acting on the orders of a Secre-
tary of ,State ? If the Treasury paid ouch charges be would
ask was,there any thing in its doing go that was irregular or
illillePerf As to the offer, of payment which had been men-
tioned,' lie was not aware that any such offer had ever been
insole. , Ilre.Butthad always pleaded inability to pay. He had
acknowledged having been treated with great kindness by the
Treasury. Was intiniated to him that he might take
the benefit of the Insolvent Debtors' Act, he stated his
suchproperty to be in
Situation that he could not avail him-
self of 'the offer. Subsequently he had been allowed to go at
large by the Lord's of the Truants,. Under all the circum-
stances, he insisted that. Mr. Butt had no just ground of corn.
plaint, anti thought lie madethe case clearly out, so that the
House would . and he almost hoped the lion. Gentleman
himself would, that there were no grounds for complaining of
the conduct of the Treasury.
Mr. DENMAN did not approve of the conduct of the Trea-
sury in putting itself in the. situation of a creditor to an indi-
vidual.

Mr. 110B110LTSE said the edge of the case had not been
taken oft' by what bad fallenisom the llon..and Learned Gen-
tleman., lie had indeed made the case clear, for he had made
it clear, that a breach of the law had taken place. He had
nothing to do with any-civillatters which Mr. Butt might have
written to the Treasury,- while ehelact was in proof that the
public money was adv*nced to.aower the expenses of individual
law-suits.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said Mr. Butt hail sent
forth two most abominable libels on Lord Ellenborough and
Lord Londonderry. For these he had been ,apprehended and
committed to Newgate ; and, in consequence of this, he had
brought actions against the Magistrate who committed, and the
jailer who detained him, 'rite case had been argued in the
Court of Common Pleas, and there the Judges not being so
competent to expound ie law as the lion. Member for West-
minster, had decided that Sir Nathaniel Conant and Mr. New-
man were justified. Mr. Bntt failed in both cases, and was
ordered to pay costa. This he was unable to do; and Sir
Nathaniel Conant and Mr. Newman had thus a right to look
to the Treasury for reimbursement. He believed the Hon.
Gentleman to be misinformed when he stated payment to have
been offered. Mr. Butt always. declared it was not in his
power to pay. If he tended a Colombian bond, which was ob.
jected to, why did he not sell it in the market, and offer the
money. Had the money been refused by the parties, Mr. Butt
would have had an immediate remedy
.on application to the
' to pay,
Court. Ile had only to do this, and he might have obtained his
liberty, but as he was unable
the whole essence had
fallen on the Treasury. He for, one, saw nothing Meg* in the
course which had been pursued,' and he was sure that there was
nothing unjust or oppressive in the proceedings.
Mr. HOB/LOUSE said, he understood the remark which the
Attorney-General had made on his law, but contended that his
opinion was borne out by that of Lord Camden. The opinion
of a Law Officer of the Crown, in a case where the liberty of
the subject wits concerned, he held to be not worth that—.
(Here the Honourable Gentleman snapped his fingers)—and
never had been worth that._( Repeating the action.)—The two
Hon. and Learned Gentlemen opposite had not dared to say
that the course which had been- pursued was legal, and he must
hog to say that he felt pretty well satisfied that lie was right,

whenever he found himself opposed to lam officers of the
Crown ; not that he was arrogant enough to think that his opi-
nion must be right, but because he considered it almost a mat-
ter of °course that theirs must be wrong.—(A laugh.)—When
Mr. Butt had tendered the Colombian Bowl, Sir N. Conant
told him that he could not receive the money at all. He again
remarked on the Attorney-General's polite notice of his law,
which, however, he contended, was as well entided to the at-
tention of the House as the opinion of a Lair Officer of the
Crown. The principle which the Learned Gentlemen oppo-
site had contended for was that which hal been 'maintained
against Lord Camden, tie Mr. Justice Park had done when
speaking on the subject of Lord Sidmouth's Circulars.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL had said nothing against
the Hon. Gentleman's law as compared with. his own, but as
compared with that which had been held .to be law by
the. Court of Common Pleas. Notwithstanding he stood in
the situation of a law officer of the Crown, he was not ashamed
of defending the decisions of that Court, even though acting
such a part should subject him to the censure of the lion.
Member for Westminster.

Mr. DENMAN considered the case of Mr. Butt to have
been one of considerable hardship. -
The petition was read and ordered to be printed.
CATHOLICS O!' IRELAND.
_ _

Mr. BROUGHAM enquired if his Hon. Friend, the Mem-
ber tbr Aberdeen would postpone his motion which stood
for Thursday. fie (Mr. Brougham) had given notice, that
he would bring forward the petition which he had to present on
Wednesday, and intended then to offer the motion which he
had to make on it. But finding it WAS unusual for the motion
to be made on the same day on which the petition was pre-
sented, he proposed submiting it to the House on Thursday, if
his Hon./Friend would consent to this arrangement.
Mr. HUME consented to give way, and postponed his motion.
COUNTY COURT.

Mr. LENNARD called the attention of tne House to the
County Court of Middlesex. He went into a description of
the business of the Court, and of the expence which it had oc-
casionecil.and concluded by moving--" That a Select Commit.
tee be appointed, to take into consideration the returns made to
this House on. the 24th of January, 1821, from the County Court
of the County of Middlesex, and to report to the House whether
the fees there taken may not be diminished, and whether it is
not ekpedient that the County Court should sit oftener than
once in each week in the Hundred of Ossulton, and to increase
the number of Sittings in the other Hundred where the Court
now sits."

Mr. CURWEN opposed the motion as :being unnecessary,
and said that if there were no other ottiections, the appoint-
ment of a Committee at this late veriod of the Session would
be useless.

Mr. 0. BENNET said the,question was, whether the Court
could not be rendered more advantageous to the public ; and
for the purpose of that inquiry he could not see why a Commit-
tee should be refused. Me thought the salaries of the officers
too greatt and without meaning any censure to them, he should
support the motion.
The House then divided, When there appeared—
For the motion - . . 18
Against it . . . 44
Majority . - . . —213
NAVAL PROMOTIONS.

On ouvre.admission to the Gallery we found
Mr. HIII‘IE addressing the House in terms of eulogy upon
the expldits and character of the naval service. In what he
meant to say, he intended no offence to any naval officer, be-
; cause he respected the service too much to do so; but since
the peace he considered that the Lords of the Admiralty had
neglected the services of old meritorious officers, anti placed
their juniors, who were inexperienced and incapable, over
their. heads. . Nothing could be more grating to the feelings of
a soldier or sailor than to be commanded by those who had
served under their orders. If promotions were to be made, and
the service kept !up, the people of this country had a right to
have.those officers appointed who might be found efficient in the
time of need when it should arrive. He should shew that this
attended to. He
had not been done and he should be much surprised if it should
be proved outhe Other side that his statements and views were
erroneous. He complained that the recommendations of the
'Finance Conamittee,of 1817, with regard to the reductions of
naval superannuatiOns and officers on half-pay, had not been
shelving. a redu
be 4,888.'
by the
tahie)plo'innpternrsenotn,ot.ter(' the number of naval officers in 1816 to
TliCCommittee
.anticipated a reduction of five per
cent, her annum, which In seven years would have reduced the
tnutqlier one third. But it appeared there were now 5,558,
310 only. This was to be accounted for
the
ilt.ttanisili re:1:11111:1ml swhaeswnedotthoraret thinerdievitilluadal been
who
965 steps. or promotions singe.the peace. lie believed that in
had
not,deserved the reward by length of aervice. But he com-
plained of the number of the other promotions and of their
having been filled by • officers whose services had not entitled
them, while others of long standing had been looked &ver.—
He contended that an improper intluence was exercised, in the
manner In which these promotions were made by the'Adrui-
reit,. The Admiralty had an. unlimited power of promotion
which ought to be restricted. , In the Army there could only be
as many officers appointed as would fill up a battalion; but
in the Navy, us he had said before, the power of appointing
was unlimited. The consequence was, that, from calcula-
tions he had made, the number of officers now upon the list
was fargreater than would be necessary for every vessel in the
possession of the country that could swim or not. In corn-
plaining,of rthe manner in which promotions had been made,
he stated that there had been one. hundred and twelve Post
;Captains appointed, and he found that forty of them had been
posted from Lieutenants over the heads of a great number of
old and meritorious officers. He acknowledged the facility with
which the Admiralty had given him the necessary informa.,
tion for his motion, and expressed his intention of bringing it
forward as fairly ail possible, without making it a party Tics-
tion. Be believed, indeed, that he should meet more-opposi-
tion on his own side of the House, than from Hon. Gentlemen
opposite. The lion. Member then named several officers who
had been posted over their superiors In standing since the peace.
Ile particularly remarked upon the cases or Lord Henry Fre-
derick Thynne, and the Hon. Frederick Spencer. The former
he stated to have been posted over 3,580 lieutenants, and 67.5
eenimandere ; and that almost without having set his foot on
board ship. He had served four years, and a great part of that
time was in a guard ship, so that he might be said to have scarce.
ly been afloat. Hewes however appointed to a ship which was
not yet built, but was upon the stocks at Madras. The Hon.
Frederick Spencer was promoted over the heads of 3,642
lieutenants after the peace ; and, in 1822, he was posted over
the heads of 750 Commanders. These he considered to be very
strong cases, and he wished them to be impressed strongly upon
the House. Lord Henri Frederick Thynne was two years.and
five months at sea, and then made Post-Captain, to command
old and meritorious officers. The Hon. Frederick Spencer, it
appeared, was appointed at sea, according to the convenient
method of invaliding; and he found that there were now two
Lieutenants under him, who were his officers when he was a
boy. lie mentioned several other names of officers who had
been advanced these three steps since the peace. Among them
he found the name of Hope Johnson three times; and When he
saw throe sons of a Lord of the Admiralty, so promoted, it was
impossible to say that promotion did not depend upon favour
and influence.. After going through the appointments of Lieu.
tenants and Commanders since the Peace, and contending
that the same disregard of seniority and service had been
there observed, he came to the subject of employments.—
At such times as the Coronation he should have no objection
to triployments being given, provided there was something
like an attention to the claims of officers by seniority, so that
they should be taken by seniority or nearly so. And at the
time applications were made to the Admiralty, and assurances
were given that the senior officers of merit would be employed.
But when the time came it was found that what the Lords of
the Admiralty meant by seniority was seniorit• of standing
since the peace. There were tifty-aeven Commariders then ap-
pointed, and how many old officers would it be thought were
amongst them ? At least half would be thought a reasonable
proportion. But the number amounted only to five. There
were six employed who were made during the war, and the
other fOrty-six were all young officers made since 1814. Ile
thought be had now stated enough to make out his case, He
wished, however, to make a few observations upon the hard.
ship of the situation in which Midshipmen were' placed by the
present regulations. Ile found that in one ship there were ten
Midshipmen whose united years of service amounted to 154.
In another ship 'refound that the same number had served under
sixty years. There was oneindividual, T. Jones, in the ship he
firit alluded to, who had served as Midshipman for fifteen years,
without getting an appointment. He had been informed that
day that he was going out with Sir George Eyre to South
America. He had obtained the history of these ten unfortu.
nate men, for such he must call them, and he found them dis.
tinguished for their services and good conduct. There was
one who had been at Algiers, and distinguished himself in se-
veral actions in the late war, but who still remained unrewarded,
anti was likely to do so to the day of his death. The Hon.
Member then read a list containing several names of Midship-
men who had been made at home as soon as their time was ex-
pired. Mr. Seymour was amongst these, and it was said that
he was one of three promoted for attending the King to Wm.
burgh, but the fact was that he was not there at all. The same
was the case with Lieutenants. He found that in the Blossom,
there were now Lieutenants of seventeen, fifteen, fourteen,
and thirteen years standing. In the Royal Marines the regu-
lations were different, and there were no such complaints in
that service. On the lit of January, 1816, there were 11,949
Officers in the Royal Marines, and in January, 1023, the num-
her was increased m 13,494 ; andi during that time there had only
been 37 steps; whereas in the Naval service, with a smaller
number of Officers, the number of steps was 1960. He would
aslc,"how could such a difference exist in fair and equal justice ?

Thz reason was, that there were no Marines in that House,
and that they possessed no Borough influence. Both these
services were administered by the same Board, and the diffe-
rence between them was, that one was managed by influence
and favour. The Admiralty themselves had pointed out what
ought to be done as a remedy for the evil. On the 4th July,
1805, an Order in Council was issued, which ordered, that in
order to prevent the increase of the number of Pursers in his
Majesty's Navy, no Purser should be appointed till the num-
ber was reduced to correspond with the number of ships in
the service, and that the number of Pursers should never again
be increased beyond that proportion. He would say, let the
same order be extended to all Officers, and then a just ground
of complaint and discontent in the service would be removed.
The Hon. Alember concluded by moving the following Reso-
lutions :

" That it appears by returns to this House, that there were
3,91)4 Lieutenants, 813 Commanders, and 851 Post Captains,
on the list of the Royal Navy, in January 1816; and that not-
withstanding so great a number of officers on the list, there has
been, between Ist January, 1816, and the Bth January, 1823,
an additional number of 860 promotions, exclusive of. Post-
Captains to be Admirals, viz. 513 Xidshipmen to be Lieu-
tenants; 222 Lieutenants, to be Commanders; 125 Com-
manders, to be Post-Captains; and that although. peace has
existed seven years, there were, on the Bth January, 1823,
3.720 Lieutenants, 1114 Commanders, anti 829 Post-C'aptains
on the list of the Royal Navy—a number more than sufficient to
officer a fleet of twice the number of ships of every. description
in the British Nary, should all be at sea at the same time.
" That there are 814 commanders on the list of the Royal
Navy, and 57 of them now on full pay, of whom only 7 were
promoted during the last ten years of active warfare (from 1802
to 1813), and 50 who have been promoted since June, 1814, the
termination of the war in Europe.
" That many of the promotions have been made in the royal
navy, without due regard either to the length of service, to the
merit of the midshipmen and officers, or to tie efficiency and
advantage of the navy; and that the expence of the half-pay of
the officers of the navy, necessarily great, after a long war, has
been thereby greatly and unnecessarily increased to the country.
" That there were 950 persons on the list of the Royal Navy
in January, 1816, and 747 in January, 1823, shewing a decrease
of 203 in the seven years, exclusive of 16 persons added to the
list in that time.

" That there were 6,949 officers and men in the corps of.
royal marines in January, 1816, and 8,494 in January, 1823,
being an increase of the corps of 1,545 in seven years; but there
were only 5 first commissions granted, and 32 promotions to
higher rank in that period.
That an humble address be presented to his Majesty, that
he will be graciously pleased to direct an inquiry to be made
into the manner in which the Right Honourable the Lords of
the Admiralty have exercised their power, both as regards the
placing on full pay those officers already on the list, and the
promotion of the several officers to higher rank in the navy
since the peace in 11115."
Sir G. COCKBURN begged to thank the Hon. Member for
expressing himself a friend to the Navy, but he assured bins
that he could do nothing that would destroy it so soon as to
adopt the principle that promotion' was to depend upon senio-
rity.—(hear, hear !)--.The Hon. Member had made use of the
high sounding numbers of the officers in the service, but that
did not serve his argument when compared with the small
number of abuses he had brought forward. He bad said, that
if he (Sir G. C.) would grant to him that interest was used in
the service,
_he had obtained all he asked. That admission he
was prepared to make to a certain extent. And he contended
that it was most desirable for the good of the service to have
the sons of Noblemen and distinguished individuals in the
navy ; they give it respectability, represented it in that
House, and added to its character in society, ; and it was not to
be expected that they should undergo all the hardships of info., •
nor service, which was indured by those who served in the pro-
feesion for their bread.--(pear, hear !)—He was sure that those
who did so were so satisfied with the rewards bestowed by the
existing regulations.—(Hear, bear!)—He could not be expected
to follow the Hon. Member, at the moment, through all the cases
he had stated, but that of ord H. F. Thynne he happened by.
chance to be acquainted with. The name of that officer stood
at the bottom of a list of seven, who were promoted upon,a.
particular occasion, as being the seven oldest commanders
upon the different stations. With regard to the service of
that officer, it was well known that the King's son must go
through six years of active service before he could be made;
and that, he thought, entitled an. officer to an appointment,
who had given up the comforts of atiluencs and rank, if it
could be made with justice and propriety. But this officer had
also served in the Mediterranean, end afterwards in the ACP
tive, with such credit to himself, that Lord William Gordon
came to the Admiralty and reported to him the meritorious
conduct of this young officer as being entitled to reward ; and
he was proud to say that he had it—(Cheers.)---and this was
what the Hon. Member called never having set foot on board
excepting
merles,
to t to South A •
afterwards A ten-gust brig orderedeo out
there, was no one to command her, when this young officer
a few years' se in a guard ship. There was
dlioton.a.llslieimipber complained that he
which was not built.
But the Admiralty knew that it would be built when he,
t. With regard to junior officers passing over the
arrived at Madras, and by that arrangement they saved an
appointeTetheir seniors, it so happened that his junior Lieute-
sh°ohuinldte'li
mint had been placed over the head of this young Nobleman,
eadvet'tedeonsoProilloitee
woo -served under bins without a word of complaint.—(Hear,
heat, bear')—The Hon. Member had stated that influence in
that House was a ground of advancement in the service. Now
upon looking at the list of the seven Commanders who were
promoted. It would bo seen that the one immediately above
, Lord H. Thynne was the Hon. F. Spencer, who belonged to an
opposition family.—.(Hear.!)—ln the Coronation promotions, all
, were selected from Midshipmen who had passer! before 1813.
He did not mean to say, that there were none who were pro-
nioted with reference to their birth ; but the instances were
very few. On occasion of the Coronation many promotions
bad taken place in the army.; and it was not improper that
some should take place in the navy. Even now he was happy •
to say that many officers were daily adducing claims which 4`
was smporsaible to resist.—.(Hear, hear !)—The coast blockade; .
the attacks on pirates, and the discoumgement of the Slave
Trade, all brought forward claims on the service. The name
of Hope had beets alluded to; but no one of the promotions of
that name had takes place in consequence of the influence
of Admiral Hope. The promotion as to the name of Coffin
had taken place on the recommendation of an old officer, and
if any Hon. Member found fault with this, he could only say
that'he did not envy, that Honourable Member his feelings.
The Honourable Member for Aberdeen had very unfairly
spoken of the Invalid Service. No officer was allowed to be
invalided withcut medical examination at the Admiralty ; and
if any Captain improperly recommended an officer to be in-
that Africa and the West Indies were particularly it:thee:thy arid
valided be was liable to be cashiered. But the House well kneir
he was sure they would not suffer the officers to remain and
die upon their stations.--(Hear, hear, hear I)—Captain Gam.
bier, who was also alluded to, bad died three days after he
had been invalided. The Hon. Member was very partial to
counting the number of persons who bad leaped over the heads
of others; but this must be the case in every promotion._...
With regard to the Marines, they were regulated by the Hon.
Member's favourite maxim, and advanced by seniority. On
the whole, he confidently declared that the Adeniralty had done
their duty, and that the majority of the promotions were the
result of actual and meritorious services. He should move a
direct negative on the main Resolution, anti the preview(
question on the others, which related to mere matters of feet.
Admiral Sir JOHN BERESFORD said, it was witl.'n his
own knowledge that many promotions had taken pine i i fa.
your of those who were opposed to Ministers.
Admiral COFFIN said that, so far from the prontotione
being too quick, he had known -midshipmen who hid served
18 years without being promoted. If men were kept unpro.
Imoted until they had arrived at his time of life, they would be
good for nothing. lie himself, if he were now sent .to sea,
Should fall about like an old three-legged stool.—(A laugh.)
Mr. F. PA LME It spoke in favour of the Motion.
Captain GORDON said, that many Midshipmen had served
double the dine prescribed by the rules of the service without
being promoted, and were not allowed half-pay. He thought
this deserved the consideration of the House. He had nothing
to observe on the promotions, but he trusted the house would
not check what little aspiration remained in the Navy.
Mr. BENNET thought that length of service should be the
principal circumstance to regulate the promotions. lie did
not think that birth should enter into the question. There
could be no doubt that many would be found to bear testi-
mony to the excellence of the present system at the expence of
the past. He had no doubt that those of the present day found .
fault with the Admiral who bad commanded at the Hague; and
that he, in his turn, would have found fault with the Comman-
der who had opposed the Spanish Armada. He did not say,
however, that the Admiralty had not succeeded in making out
any case ; but he repeated his disapprobation of the system of
allowing birth to interfere with the question of promotion.
Mr. Secretary CANNING observed that something new was
to be learned every day ; and they had just heard • from the
Hon. Member that (contrary to his, Mr. Canning's, impres-
sions) men were apt to undervalue the actions of the dead, wad
to enhance those of the living. Those ' who had heard the
opening of the- Hon. Member for Aberdeen,
which he (Mr. C.)
admitted wawa very temperate one, and the answer given to
it by his Hon. and Gallant Friend behind him, could'not but.
be satisfied that the case of the lion. Member for Aberdeen,
had received a complete and satisfactory answer. No doubt it-
would be too much to say that his Gallant Friend had met
every specific and individual instance referred to by the Hon.
Member, but he had met the greater proportion of them. and
that too on the moment—a circumstance from which the House

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