The Sun.
London, England, 1840-03-03 00:00:00

,I',VENING EDITIOI

Tamworth was brought before the House, he had ven-
tured respectfully to state that he thought it would be
better to repeal the 9th G; o. IV. entirely, and pass an
Act by which Parliamentary costs might he enforced.
Unfortunately it seemed to him the House had taken
a different course, and erected a etatutabie tribunal,
which must proceed in the course the Act of Perlin-
liament bad prescribed. He regretted exceedinely that
the Heuse had got into its present difficulty, nor could
he see his way out of it except by fresh legislation. As
he had stated on a former occasion, it appeared to him
that that House could never satisfactorily and benefi-
cially exercise its right to determine election petitions
until all the Acts on the subject were repealed. AU
they wanted was the power to award costs, and then
their proceedings would be rendered independent of the
Courts of Law.
Sir THOMAS FRI;MANTLE regretted that the
Honourable and Learned Gentleman did not. approve of
the suggestion of his Right Honourable Friend,
which was to consider al: the previous proceedings
as irregular—to discharge the order, and then to come
regularly before the House again. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman said the House had done
everything required by the Act of Parliament.. Now it
could not be undone. He (Sir T. Fremantle) would,
however, contend that the House had not complied with
the provisions of the Act, but had done things in so
irregular and informal a manner, that they had not com-
plied with the Act of Parliament. It appeared to him,
under all the circumstances, that the best thing
they could do would be to commence de novo.
On the whole it appeared to him, considering all the
difficulties of the case, that the safest course which they
could pursue was that recommended by the Hon. and
Learned Member for Newark, and he believed that it
differed but very little from that which the majority of
Members on his side wished to follow.
Sir G. GREY said that he certainly thought that
of all the propos;tions made to the House, that of his
Hon. Friend, the Chairman, was the best. With re-
gard to the assertions of the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber for Exeter, relative to the 52d clause of the
Act, he did not think that that clause rendered
it necessary for them to adopt that course of pro-
ceeding, which the Honourable and Learned Member
seemed to think. That clause merely prescribed that
the Committees should be taken as they stood on the
list. But the question was what was the order in which
they then stood, and he believed that the Committees
might now be considered to have changed their place.
Mr. F. KELLY said that whatever difference of
opinion might exist as to the questions raised on the
occasion, they would all admit that it was of the last
importance that a correct decision should be arrived at
on the case then before the House. If there should
be any deviation from the statute, all the prc-
ceedings of the Committees would be void,
and the most injurious and inconvenient consequences
would follow. He should say that he differed in one
point with his Hon. and Learned Friend the Attorney-
General, and that he did not think that the least diffi-
culty could be created by the operation of the 93d sec-
tion of the Act. He thought that the provisions of
that section had been strictly as well as substan-
tially complied with, and that therefore the pro-
ceedings were not, in any degree, irregular in that
regard. That section merely required that petitions
pending in the then Session of Parliament should be
referred to the House in the order that had been
pointed out—that is, before any petitions presented in
the present Session. That he believed had been
done in the case then under their consideration.

The question was then put from the chair, a,
motion agreed to without a division.
The petition was then read by the Clerk, but in
sequence of the noise oocasioncd by the converaneit
Hon. Members, we were unable to hear a word at i
Mr. GISBORNE said he begged liteeeeto move:
it be printed with the Votes, as he apprehended, in
first place, it had not been heard by the Howse, and
the next, since on the present occasion they had had IA
benefit of the opinions of the greatest legal authoritit
in the House, and he was not quite aware that any tvrt
of them agreed upon it. In a case like the present,
where so much doubt existed, he thought the best tin
that could be done was to leave it to the judgment and -
discretion of the General Committee. He hr p:d there
would be no objection, under these circumstances
have the petition printed with the votes in order fiat
the members of the General Committee might be ac-
queinted with it.
Mr. WYNNE did not think the Heuse could adopt
any proceeding with regard to the present petition.
The ATTORNEY• GENERAL was of opinion
that Mr. Aleock had at present uo locus stivai in the
House.—(Hear, hear.) He was of opinion that the par-
ties interested in the matter could not hero justice
dote them without the intervention of an Act o:
liaoent.

GISBORNE
,would not press the motic4,
against the sense of the House.
Sic GEORGE CLERK doubted whether the peti-
tion could he received, and he would suggoat to his
Hon. Friend whether the most convenient course would
not be to withdraw the petition for the present.
Mr. GISBORNE did not see why he should with.
draw his motion.
The SPEAKER said that he did not apprehend
the Hon. Member would be entitled to call co the
House to have this petition printed with the rotes of
the House, as it was not an election pet... Lion, and he
therefore thought that it would be bettcrdor the Hou. ,
Member to withdraw the petition.
Mr. GISBORNE said he should yield to the 800.
gestion of the Chair.
Mr. HUME gave notice that he would, at an ear. 4
period, move for an account of sums paid as peettioas
under the statutes of George 111. and George IV. •
Sir JAMES GRAHAM gave notice that, if tiae
papers connected with China were not presented to the
House before Thursday naxt, he should, on that, day
move an humble address to her Majesty, praying her
Majesty that the papers relating to a commercial inter-
course with that country should be presented to the
House.
Lord J. RUSSELL gave notice that on Thursday
next he would move for leave to bring in a Bill for the
purpose of giving summary protection to the publishers
of Parliamentary papers.
Mr. BARNEBY wished to ask the Hon, Member
for Cambridge whether he intended to bring f6rwahl his '
motion with regard to the Corn-laws on the day ho had
appointed, or whether he intended to postpone it till tbe
general question came before the House ?
Mr. PRYME said that he intended to bring for-
ward his motion as an amendment to the motion of the
Hon. Member for Wolverhampton, if he should then
be able to attend in his place in the House. T';
Mr. BARNEBY said that the Hon. Member for 11
Wolverhampton, did not intend to bring forward his 11
motion, and he wished to know if the Honourable
Member wished to defer his amendment until then.
Mr. PRYME said it would depend on the day which
his Hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton fixed
his motion.

_ _ _.........._ ..........
He contended that the 93d section had been complied
with, because the Ludlow Election Petition was re-
ferred to the Committee before the Cambridge; and
the section which required the petition of the electors
to be referred to the Committee had been complied with.
No difficulty, therefore, arose under the 93d section, as
to the legality of the proceedings of the Committee.
He (Mr. Kelly) was not able to agree with the Solici-
tor-General in his construction of the 53d section. The
great difficulty was as to the course that was to be pur-
sued. To proceed to appoint the different Select
Committees in the order in which they appeared
on the list would be nugatory and erroneous.
The question, therefore, was, what could
now be dune consistently with the provisions of
this statute ; and he agreed the Howe must consider
not what it might have been expedient to do at the
time the Act passed, but what had been done by the
terms and provisions of the Act ; and he thought it '
was clear that the jurisdiction which tormerly
existed in that House to rescind and alter
orders made from time to time, was now, by the opera-
tion of the Act, transferred exclusively to the General
Committee appointed under the Act. It was not compe-.
tent for that House to rescind any order which it had
mode for referring this matter to the General Committee.
He felt that there was great difficulty in the present
case, and that it was of the utmost importance that
the proceedings of the House should be regular accord-
ing to the strict terms of the Statute. lie therefore TURKEY AND EGYPT.
could not support the amendment of the Right Mr. HUME gave notice that it was his intention.
Honourable and Learned Gentleman below him, . on Fritlay next, either upon the House going keep a
but he thought some amendment might be come to Committee of Supply, or upon.the Report being brow&
under which, in reality, the House would not take any up, to call the attention of the House to the state ,
step whatever, but leave it to the General Committee of affairs in Turkey and Egypt, and the conduct ;IT thee
to take the course they might think right, which he Government in endeavouring to keep up a war to thclea.
(Mr. Kelly) apprehended would be to rescind their parts.
present-order. Lori J. RUSSELL said that he should he prepared
Lord JOHN RUSSELL did not know whether he when the subject was brought ft:twat:el, to show that
t
apprehended the question correctly, but as he under- the Government had interfered in . a manner that was
calculated to prevent iTtli r than excite tiostilitics,
stood it, he felt very much inclined to agree with the
Hon. and Learned Member who had just sat down. AMERICAN BOUNDARY.
c,
The view he took of the question was this—by the 93d Sir R. PEEL wished to knew whethor th Noble
Lord opposite would be prepared to lay any papers before,
section of the Act the House was to refer the election
Parliament connected IN itb the differences with respect
petitions, which were before it last Session, to a
to the North American Boundary, He thought thee'
general Committee, the House bad ' referred those
petitions according to the previsions of the Act, the dignity of the House required that it should Lave '
with the exception of one, which had since its information on so important a subject. from official.
been referred to the general Committee of selection,
had and papers, and not from the newspapers, which at pres-ent
were the only means Of affording any information on
the question was whether the general Committee
any power under the Act of appointing days for those that subject.
Committees to sit, and whether they could make any Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the papers to
which the Right Hon. Gentleman had rekrred bad ap-
alteration as to the order in which the whole stood.
As to the last point, he did not think the order could peered in the nompapers, ia consequence, as he be-
believed, of the President of the United States havieg
altered, but he thought, from the words of the
Act, that a power was given for altering the time. thought fit to lay them before the Senate of the United
Now that being the case, the Learned Gentleman who States. He had no objection to lay on the table of the
bad last spoken asked, was it necessary the House House all the papers the Government had on the ersbject.
should interfere ? He (Lord J. Russell) did not think At the same time he did not think the negotiations wane
it was. But as he viewed the motion of the Hon. in a fit state to be discussed by that House ais. the
'
Chairman of the Committee, it was not proposed that correspondence was still going on.
the House should in any way interfere or direct any-
C 0 R N-L A WS.
thing to be done by the general Committee, but only
Mr. HUME wished to ask if there would be laid. before,
the House in time to avail, during the Corn-law debates,,
to interfere in regard to an order made by themelves.The
du,
Chairman of the General Committee having stated in the valuable and important information relative to
meeting at Berlin, of Delegates from varlous pacts of th a
the House that if there was no notice given other than
Continent? The Reports were printed, and in that
the 24 or 48 hours directed Uy the Act, the first
and second panels would not be in attendance when the hands of some Members. They contained most' ins.-
Committees were chosen. It was therefore desirable portant information as to the effect of a repeal o f
that the House should so far interfere as to direct the
the Corn-laws, in respect to an amicable arrange -
ment for commercial intercourse wife this conetr, ;
attendance of the first and second panels on certain
the Corn-law debates would come on about the ele h
deys. That was quite an independent question
from the 9rie which they had now been arguing and there was hardly time to have these doenesentl ;
—( Hear.) The House had the most perfect right. printed ; and unless they were officjelly before Sao
House they could not be used with advantage.
to make such an order for the general convenience, or to
Lord J. RUSSELL had no objec.tou to their pro-
revoke it. But it was not proposed to interfere with
the general powers of the Committee under the Act. auction. •
Mr. HUME—No objection ! Why, so I was ton
He thought it most desirable that these powers should
be left to their own discretion—(Hear)—anxious, as two months ago ; but I want them.—,-(Latrgbter..l Can
I give a notice, Sir, for an address to procure thelr pro-
thethey doubtless would be, to conform to the provisions of
Act of Parliament.—( Hear.) duction ?
The SPEAKER said—To-morrow.—(A laugh.)
Sir R. PEEL said he was confident of this, that if a
SUPPLY—NAVY ESTIMATE. Act were necessary to do effectual justice, that ittce or
Act would cheerfully be passed. He apprehended that 4: . The House then resolved itself into a Comm
Supply on the Navy Estimates.
it was clearly the intention of the House that the pelf- Mr. MORE O'FERRALL moved a ‘ve is of
lion of the electors should have been referred at the
602,6001. for seamen and marines dariog the onrren t)'Orior.
time to the General Committee. But by some accident
Mr. HUME remarked that there was a. great'
„hi-
that reference had not taken place. He quite
agreed with the Noble Lord that it was important to
crease during the last year or two in the vietualli or
interfere as little as possible with the General Com-
charges. He found from the returns of the price of
neittee.—(Hear ) Tho House had intended by
Sour, for instance, that the quantity which formerly
late Acts to take away from itself the temptations to
cost U. 18s. had during the year 1839 cost 21. 4e. 2d., :
the
and that a great increase had taken place in the price of
such discussions, leading as they did to party contests,
—( Hear.) He thought it much more probable that the provisions generally.—(Hear, hear.) He wisVd,
General Committee had the power to give directions in therefore, as this was a most important question,
as showing how the Corn-laws pressed upon the finances'
this case than that the House had it.—( Hear.) He was
inclined to think that the Committee had the power not of the country, that the Honourable Secretary would 1
to alter the order in which the Committees stood,
state to the House what was the amount by whials the 11
but to postpone the whole proceedings to such a period, estimates bad beeuereased in consequeose of the A*
as would enable the notices to be given as at first, ormaon wo
in the price of previsions. This int ti tici he
He thought the wisest course for the House to pursue
of great importance in the discussion some future occasion. on of the Ceps'-lavis
would be to remove all obstruction to the free action of
the General Committee, and if the General Committee Mr, MORE O'FERRALL (who spoke very falle%
on further consideration of the subject should find the tinetly, and with his back to the g-ajleryl, said he an-
intervention of Parliament necessary to remove the chili_ derstood from the Hon. Gentleman that it was not }fief
culty, they might make a special report to the House on intention to raise a discussion on the question of the
the subject. He should support the motion of the Corn-laws on the present occasion, but that,when tee
Honourable Gentleman, of which he approved, and 'vas furnished with the information he desired, he svoald
he thought it ought to be complied with in order to give suffer the discussion of the Estimates to proceed.—(A
the General Committee an opportunity, of seeing if. sign of assget from Mr. Hume.) He would, therefore,
they could not provide a remedy for the evil, for if furnish the-Hon. Gentleman with the information 'Lk de-
' they could not do so they might make a special report, sired, which, as he understood, was merely for the rite on
calling for the intervention of Parliament for the
pup-
corn and flour, and not en other provisions.- He would,
pose of obtaining tt at which he was convin.eed was the
object they all had in view, that of doing justice to all therefore,. state the rise per cent. in the price o? those
articles during the year 1839, as compared with the
parties. three preceding years, distinguishing the rate pet cent.
Mr. GISBORNE said he hadN a petition to present of the rise at home,—of the rise at home and abroad ;
and as many of the ships. in the Mediterracean
from Mr. Alcock, the sitting
dlember for Ludlow, in fleet were victualled at Malta, he would likewise state
reference to the matter now un
Clerk,er discussion, which he the rise per cent. which had taken place in the price o requested might be read by th
toydas-2 per cent. at home
.i 1 at the table. It articles of provision in
home,
island.o The increase its 4
had only just now been plaeedein h
uh
me
ehnat had
andcorn
not made himself acquainted withs all Lands
eaanrdcompared with the
therein made use of in support of the prayer ; gbut the abroadwas 18dpuerirncgenthe year aro mlBe
three preceding years. in biscuit thei
2
ncrease was, at
petition, after reciting the circumstances of the case, home 9 per cent., at horfe and abroad per cent. ;ia
went on to state that the provisions of the 93d section flour it was, at home and abroad 36 per cent,, at
of the Act not having been complied with, as appeared home 10 per cent., and at Malta 11-
per cent. In
from the report of the General Committee on Elections, wheat, at home and abroad 28 per t cen ~ at home 20
it would be manifestly a great injustice ,to the petitioner per cent., and in the Islandof
Malta 16 per cent. ,
if any measures were adopted to revive a petition which In spirits tbrise ine ere lB4O over 1839 had bees 8 'i
p
had been put an end to by due course of law. He did
cent., and in fresh meat the rise in the present year ova
not know whether he should be in order in moving that over the last had
been 11 per cent.
the petition be now read. • Mr. WARBURTON wished h • lets to ask, whether the '
Mr. GOULBURN rose to order. There was a Government had made any inquiry with regard to a
question already under discussion, and therefore he ap- reef of rocks which
had lately sprung up on the eciast
prehended that the petition could not be non' read. Dorsetshire so as to form • l a
.na-uraharbour there ? '
The SPEAKER said it would be quite contrary to ,He wished h 'to ear if any sureeyor had been sent to
order to have the petition read at the table until the I that coast? •
question now before the House had been disposed of. Admiral ADAM said that he had not beard of the

DELIVERY OF NOTICES.
Sir G. CLERK said that he wished to have the
evidence that was taken the other night, relative to the
delivery of the notices respect* Election Petitions,
referred to the consideration of a Select Committee.
in order that they might consider the subject; and re-
port to the House in what way the regular service of
those notices could be secured. It was obvious that, as
the General Committee would have to issue noticeA
very soon again, some directions ought to be
given for the mere regular fervice of notices. Had
Iles° notices been delivered regularly, the House
would not have been placed in the difficult
and embarrassing circumstances that had eaten,
and which had given rise to the discussion of that day.
He therefore begged to give notice that he should to-
morrow move for the appointment of a Select Committee.
POOR LAWS.
Lord G. SOMERSET wished to ask when it was
the intention of the Noble Lord, the Secretary for the
Conies, to bring in his Bill for the amendment of the
new Poor-law Act ? He trusted that the Noble Lord
would give ample time after its introduction to Hilo.
Members to make themselves ecquaiuted with the
provisions of the Bill.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he should be ready to bring,
in the Bill before Easter, but it was his intention to
propose that the principle should be discussed lifter the
reet'SS.

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