The Sun.
London, England, 1812-07-02 00:00:00

TM IT S D(AY, L'Y 2,18 V.

lAIPEI-4 IA L PAR

'SOUSE. OF LORDS, WEDNESDAY.

pII.I3LIMINARY I‘;I:SINESS.

- - - .
About half past three o'aloCk,athe Loan CEIAN-
tILLOR took his seat on the Woolsack, and short-
af ter prayers were read.
the Royal Assent was given by Commission to
ne Loan Bill, the Irish Glass Duties Drawback.,
the Militia Officers Allowances, the ,
-Plantation
Sugar and CoWec Import Bill, the Irish Malt Dut--
'`'-3J the Laud Tax Sale Amendment, the Scots
'xcise Officers Allowance, the English Excise
eel's, the-Whitby and -Margate Harbour Bills,
and to one Private Bill. , •
, The Lords Commissioners were the Lord Chan-
.or, the 'Par], of Liverpool, and Lord Wal-
laugh a.m.
Their Lordships then adjourned during. plea-
Nre.
• About five o'clock the House resumed ; when
theiri .Lordships proceeded to -forward the Bills
1.7°1-1 the Table. Arno'no- these, the Southern
hole Vishery, the West India- Trade, 'and the
unlawful Oath's Bills, Were severally read a third
tiele., and passed.
On the Motion of the Earl of LAUDERDALE, Se-
iler°. Documents referring to and illustrative of.
;e•claims of Mr. Palmer, formerly of the Post-
t tee, for additional remuneration, were ordered
9 be laid before the House.
0:a the suggestion of the Earl of HARROW/3Ythe ',
'farther consideration of the Curates Bill,
rr ought in I;y* his Lordship) was postponed till
cidaYse'Unight ; to' this he was induced by a de-
re, that the Bill, when thoroughly amended,
nat4.2' before Parliament and the country : and
ti •Y
by a wish to press it then to the adoption of
t Lordship's : 'but it was certainly his intention
t° take an early opportunity next Session to bring
"e subject. fully before the House. •_
ta,:Lord GRENVILLE strongly approved-of the
eiciPla of the Bill proposed bv.his Noble Friend.
t_ .as a subject that merited the most serious at-
-0',41-on and the Most grave discussion on, the part
i,their Lordships ; and he rejoiced .his Noble
testwould afford the House that opportunity,
t,t't Scission. • It was impossible to contemplate ,
ae, n'r-ant state of the Clergy of the country,
alltt not to feel even thenecessity of entering, at
ti
early period of the next Session, into the full•
feunsideration of the subject to which the Bill re-
Lrred ; and he trusted their Lordships general-
e~egwould turn -their attention to it during the
er he Earl of SUFFOLK said a few words on the
e
ier-sion., and referred to a case within his know-
ge, in order to slew the necessity of some-
re for the- relief of the poorer clergy...
vthequestion for the second reading of Pal-,
rr s Compensation Bill
.on. Friday next,
'`.he Earl of LAUDERDALE strongly objected to
a e'r Lordships coming to any speedy decision on
jbeasure, which he conceived of very serious
c'Portance. .lire contended that their Lordships
onuld not with any degree of propriety-decide up--.
1;1e the until they were fully masters' of the
ipvle.essy information respecting the case out of
a "cla the Bill grew. There . was a report re-
aPecting'.it from a Committee of that House,
b" also one communicated to their Lordships-
Y the Commons, . and which could not be
t
.41Y so as to -be adequately considered against
He begged- the -House to pause, before
tieoncurreil, in the present situation of the coun-
tj in a measure which went to confer on an in-
-I`,.vidtial a sum of 75,0001. 'and 9,0001. per annum.
e requested they would recollect, that by a Bill
114-1
bcew before the rlont'e, the remuneration pro-
f°-`led to the'Great Officers of State was trifling
'•. been compared to that proposed by the Bill
.'in
restion. He therefore ,again requested their
ordships would wait until they had the tieces-
t oarY information. upon the subject, -before they
decided..
. .
The Earl of MoiaA (who had/proposed tlre'se-
"nd reading as above) said he should- certainlype'
sist in his motion respecting the Bill, on Fri-.
aY. He did not think the documents adverted
oe by the Noble Earl would,go to affect the merits'
r the justice of the case : they were of no itri-
prtance'with:reapect to the exceptperhaps •
fr::031. Points of reference in the-course ofthe debate.
dedi„4, the day mentioned, he.- should -press far the
of the House. . . •
iehe LORD CH4NCELLOR observed, that he.
th°llld have nil difficulty as to iris vote respecting
we measure' in question : his' present opinion
e aa, that it was his duty to oppose the Big, in
Ilcry way in which it may present itself to the
Ouse,
Lord REDESDALE, in consequence of the im-
tc)rtant discussion which stood: for this even-
tlF-g. postponed his motion for the commitment
ti the Bill to provide for the better Atlininistra-
:ll of Justice mail Monday, which, lie thought,
:11d be a convenient day for the Noble-Lords.
a}2'revious to the principal Order of the pay be
-4g'entered upon,
The Duke of NORFOLK -observed, that lie had
been: in several of the Public Newspapers,- anum-
, er of Resolutions, purporting -to have been
a M
atkgreed to at an. Aggregate Meeting of the
c)lies of Ireland.. lie did not wish to draw the
Itention of the House to those proCeedings ;
(71t, he wiShed.to learn from .SOITIC Noble Lord
iiPPosite, whether they knew that a statement he
„Itcl seen in a paper of that morning, importing,
ttat at an extraordinary meeting of the Catholics
held subsequently, their regret at the adoption-of
e :
ertain resolutions which he alluded to, was ex-
vressed, was well founded ?
ta Lord Viscount SIDMOUTIf answered across'the
bl* (Eta we could collect) that his Majesty's Go-

vernment had no authentic information on the'
1. subject.
CATHOLIC QUESTION.
The Order of the Day upon which their Lord•
ships were summoned being read,
The Marquis .IYelai.est EY rose.. Before he
called their LOrdships attention to The most im--
portant subject of which he had the • honour of
giving notice on a former evening; he should, be
said, slightly,glance at some of the modes and dis-
positions in which that subject had formerly bean
• received and discussed by the Legislature of the
United liindotn. • He meant on the occasion of
those discussions which had directly arisen from
the Petitions formerly presented by the Catholics..
The subject had • not only been treated with ne-
glect and inattention, but pointed at with every
appearance of contumely and contempt ; it was
even regarded 'as . an object of compassion and
commiseration.. In that state of the question
some per Sons, much he thought to their honour,
distinguished themselvesb-y their.exertions in sup-
' pori: of it, and with a view to the furtherance of
the just and temperate prayer and tcnour of those
documents. It Was utterly impossible to avoid •
noticing' also, the ground and , principle upon
which' the question, to which he was about so
decidedly to advert, had been treated and consi-
.dered by the Legislature,and the governing policy •
of th'e' country, through a long series of ages—
they werentterly4listinct from those upon which
Most or all other political topics had been coe-
sidered and :'decided. It was a principle that
scented to embarrass all the received maxims of
state, or, yather the question, how long so large
a:description of their . fellow-subjects, not•ccin-
forming to the established religion of tlie State,
should be excluded from the.pale, and,body of the
Constitution ? It seemed to be left to the7occur-
refaces of chance and accident: A great deal had
been said of the Legislative s'ystem by which
,the
COnstitution in Church and 'State had' been forti-
,fied and secured-; but it would be a disrespect to
their Lordships to call the laws now existing, by
which so large a portion of their fellow-sulnects
were' aggrieved and excluded, a system s .they pos-
lessed no character whateier of a system,' They
never yet had an opportunity of considering this
important question as a great whole., and the causes
why the personal interests and feelings of so nu-
mesons a-body-were brought into their present
condition. It would appear as if the minds ,and
eyes of men were turned aside from. the consi-
deration of the dtEtails of the subject ; which
'seemed to be left open to every thing that could
embarrass or distract the public mind with respect
to it. . Was the season, he Would ask, now come
in which they could fully refer, to this great ques-
tion? .Was the season arrived in which it was
exempt from all those accidental circumstances
that touched it'in various times.? Was the time
at length come in which this' most important of -
all questions could be 'considered and discussed
-upon the general Principles of national justice,
upon which were founded all those considerations
which conferred upon this country its pre-emi- •
nences in liberty, in law, in property,, and in reli-
gion ! With respect to the . aggregate mass of
laws to which he had alluded, he repeated, be
could not characterize them 'as' a system. He
had therefore to 'request of their Lordships that
they would examine•the subject in question, upon'.
the same principles and in "the way they would
examine Any proposition essentially referring to
'any great branch of the existing constitution . of
the country; and whether. 'the system .so long..
upheld was in its theory,, in its principle, or in its
frame, so finely moulded', by the, 'suggestions of
' ancient wisdom, witl4out any defect upon the face •
of it ; so beautiful in its shape and form, as that
they 'ought not to enter into consideration of its
merits or effects; that they would 'consider whetherl
or not these effects, in practice and in point of
fiact, were or were not advantageous. He would
further request the House-to consider whether the
effects of. such a system, operating even. upon. 'its
awn principles, its effects taken upon every part
of the United Kingdom; were. such as tended to
produce happiness, satisfaction, liberty, or . even
security to the Church EstablishMents, that ob-
ject fbr which that part of the system to which'
-he referred was avowedly designed. Its practical
effects he • begged the House most . seriously to
'consider. They would further , and more . closely
have, to consider whether greater evils would not
be incurred by their keepirig tip, than by their
endeavouring to correct such a system. Another
consideratiOn for the House would be, .whether the
particular time or mode in which be pressed the
Resolution he was about to submit, were so ob-.
jectiOnable, as to render it necessary to reject the
proposition. 'He was anxious the subject should be
-considered in such away, that every Noble Lord may
have an opportunity'of stating his distinct Objec-
tion to, or acquieseence in every part ofe it. In
considering this important subject, he would first
point their Lordships attention to the state of the
Roman Catholics in England—they were
-com-
pletely disqualified from either sitting in Parlia-
ment; or voting for Members—and incapacited
for-all 'offices, civil or He believed .no
question could exist as to the coquet of the Eng-
lish Catholics, for a long series of time : it was.
exemplary for its loyalty ; they had practically
evinced their sincere attachment to the Conatitu-
tion and Government-of the Country. They
would next look to the ,situation and circum-
stances in which the Catholics of Ireland Were
placed. • These had been admitted. to a certain,
but a very limited participation of the benefits of
the Constitution. By an A'ct of the Irish Parlia-
ment, the principle of their capacity to all offices
was ,admitted_; but, at the same time, they were
disqualified eo nomine from every office that could
be important or desirable : they. were admitted to
the bar, but were prevented from rising into situ-

ations in. which they could serve the CroWn.—
'These concessions were only shfficient to excite
sentiments of :discontent. That spirit 'must arise
out of the very-concessions theniSelves. Sqch
coneeesions would naturally inspire into every
English or Irish breast, for he knew no difference,
a confident hope, that persons so admitted were
qualined- for proceeding further, but they were
prevented. He next adverted to the case of the
military profession: In this their 'admissions Pro-
ceeded on the same principle,; encouragement to
a certain point was-held out, and then the hopes
which 'were fostering were blasted; for beond
that point they were nut to go ; and hare he could
not avoid regarding the 'principle of contrast
Which was suffered to prevail with respect to the
Irish and the English Catholics, when the uni-
form loyalty and attachment of the latter were
never called in question. In another point of
view,
,he could not .blit consider the principle-
, adopted as grossly'iinpolitic : a certain degree of
political power was confided to a description of
people who,, in general, regarded considerations
of the kind on, no other principle, than that of
their own strength. He would next most serie!
onsly beg .the attention of their Lordships to tie
situation of the Catholics in Scotland, in that
cootintey, in his view of the case, they were,. un-
der the Act of -11793, rendered eligible to every
office, civil or military ; they Were restricted how-
ever front voting or sitting insParliinient. Not-
withstanding the eligibilities to which he alluded,
these persons Were liable to be prosecuted for '
exercising their religion l He would ask, how
these indulgencies granted to the Catholics, of
Scotland had ever, in the least degreeetended
iliju-
riously to the interests of the EStablisited' Church'
in that part of the Island Even the High Cothmis-
sioner to the Kirk of Seotla.nd may be a Catholia.
These obVious 'and irreeoneilable disparities and in-
congruities should be an 'additional inducement to •
the Legislature to endeavour to,bringethe whole to
some regular system. The existence Of these various
restraints, he musecontend, were in theory, con=
trary to every principle ofnational. justice : it was,
printa.facie, a gross- injustice, when no necessity
could be shewnlor the continuance of such re-
straints. In the next place, they were contrary
to the spirit of the Christian religion ; it .chished
with this, to impose upon any dOeription of
Christians any civil disability, or ade privation of
civil rights on account of their religious opinions;
and he would assert, it was for these opiniods
that the restrictions Were continued ! He would
say hirther; that any thing in the nature of op-
pression upon Oren, or any withholding of civil
right on such account Was,,rimafacie,' contrary
to every principle upon which the reformed reli-
gion was introduced. Its principles were adver.§e.
to every species of intolerance ; nay, the system
itself was unjust even upon its ' own principles.
The restrictions were imposed merely in conse-
quence of the state of things at. the. periods in -
which they were provided, in consequence -of the
existing state of things, foreign, and domestic. In
the first place, their origin: was founded in
the jealousy, perhapS , justly entertained, atthe
state of things iri Europe; especially the pre-
valent power of, the Pope. In ;the reign of
'James the First the apprehensions which were
entertained of the preponderance of the Romish
religion and the Papal power,' caused, the kgis-
lative restrictions which
,were adopted at that pe-
!
riodi (L n the two subsequent reigns, anti uring the
period of the civil dissension, the same apprehen-
sions snore or less preponderated—they, in no
case, had any ground of justification, save the
urgent sense of 'the circtiinstantes:of the thiles.,--
Some temporary occasional principle always.pte-
vailede---and the fears which were-entertained of
PropiSh'succession before the second James canie
to. the Throne;- suggested the restrictive laws at.
that time. 'ln the early parts of William's reign,
a favourable disposition towards the Catholics
was thought to prevail on the part of the Govern-'
matt : it certainly manifested' itself to be actuated.
by .principles of toleration ; but When
XIV. its most - poeVeful Prince, in the face of.
all Enrol*" acknowledged a Popih Pretender to
the Crown of these realms, that illustrious Prince;
King. William, and his Ministers, found •ethemT
selves limier the necessity,. as they thought, of
_passing several' laws against "theltoman Catho-
lies. ..They had heard'nmeh of the great names of
Lord` Somers and Lord Ilardwicke ; they were .
great and :venerable .names :—and if he erred in
any opinions faVourable to the system of policy
which he (Lord 'W.) sb decidedly' advoeetdd, he
erred in common with these great au illustrious
characters. At, the period when the councils of
Lord SomerS preptinderated, Louis XIV. Was.
the very zenith of his power, and had openly af-e
forded his support to ae Popish Pretender to the
English Throne at that very time ; it was well
known, there were men; even in the Council of
King William, who were favourably disposed to-
wards a-Popish successor.' Under these, circum-
stances, it was not justified, hut deemed expedient
to enact these laws, merely for the lie,ervtition",of
the existing system against the Catholics, who
were then comparatively numerous and powerful,
supported by a Popish Pretender, and encouraged
by the Pope, then in the full vigour of his. autho
rity : it was then thought expedient to have every
additional'security for the support of the Protes-
tant establishments: He therefore desired to enter
his protest against any consideration- of the prin-
ciple acted upon by that great character, further
than it' was applicable to temporary objects, 'called
for by 'the apparent necessity of the case. :lie
had a similar declaration to make with respect to
the conduct of Lord Hardwicke, who counselled,
in that respect, at a period .when a Popish Pre,-
tender had actually invaded the kingdom : that
was the basis on which he founded that part of
his political conduct. So urgent was the Occasion

r •
LPRICE SIXPENCE-HALFIF.NNY.

. . .
Judged, that the friends of. "that nnforterutte
Prince; Peers of the realm, were- doomed to ter-
iiiinate their lives. upon a scaffold. : Were they
now, he would ask, 'tinder apprehensions of that
kind ? Weie they now called on to act upon
any such principle .as that which actuated those
illustrious Peers ? e Was there any pretence
. :continuing those baneful restraints., ate. the
grOund of securing the House of Brunswick
against a Popish' Pretender to its lawful pos-
sessions ? Was there any point or particle
•of similarity, . between the cases and times.,
now and then ? No ! they were perfectly dis-
tinct in every- feature.—They lied the autho-
. rihy of Lord Somers and Lord Hardwicke, tit .t
they had grounded those restrictive measures
which- they had, respectively advised, on' the
evident necessity of the Cases ; and, as. such; only
' applicable to the occasions. whiCh called for them.
The protections of that tune were not'wholiy re-
straints
on Papists, but political engagements
agaenst igh etreason. They were extensions of
the statute of the 7th of Anne, and the restric-
tiohs which \they contained (particularly that of
the 17th of George H.) were to expire on the
death of thee family of the Pretender. • Did not'
this slim that the whole piewisions ct those acts
referred to the state of .eireunistancesat thet
period, and to their probablehluration I Thorne
circumstances, as connected with the: family of
the Pretender, had ceased to exist. '['hose laws
had theeefhce ceased to exist.e7Wirit remained ?
The Pope—,and 'the do6triues attributed 'to-the
Catholics. And, first, -with respect-to the Pope :
he. could not refrain from 6:pressing.his astonish-
ment at the Course of -argument adhpte7d. 'on that
part of the subject: in several publications, and.
particularly ,in one froM the pen of a NhbleLerd,
it head/been contended that greater danger'Was to
be arreehencied from the intlneuce.Of -the Pope in
consequence -of the reconciliation between the
Peipe and Bhonapatte, -Whet had beevi the nature
of that reconciliation ? .The object of Buohapartel„
:as his views extended, had been-to subjugate the
whole of Italy to the Irtm Crown. Lie conceived,
it desirable to annex the rich temperaiities of the
Pope to that Crown, anil he did so annex them.
Was it probablethat in doing this, he attached
the Pope to his interest ? And yet some contend= '
ed., that this% increased the "danger ! Some con-
teaded that the Pope enjoyed
.his -.ancient autho-
rity, and that he was-disposed to use it subject to
the influence of BuOnaparte ! Could those who
_maintained these opinions point out the smallest
use of -the Papal authority in the present times ;
or even a single instance in which that authority
had been 'in the slightest degree recognised by.
BuonaparSerhimself ? Nay, if he were not 'Misin-
formed, nothing that the-Pope could do,, under
the circumstances in which he was at present
placed,. would be recognized, even by his en'en
Church. His authority was thtiS evidently exhin-
guished ; the facts- shelved thas it Was so. If the
authority of the. Pope actually existed,. had there
been nh temptation to exercise it for the further-
ance of lltiodaparte's_ views he--Had there been no
so to 'exercise it in Spain ? Had there
been no temptation so. to exercise it in Portugal ?
Had there ‘,eete no temptation so to exercise it in
the Spanish Colohies ? -Had ally _attempt been -
made in any plaCe to-use the authority of the
Pope for thte purphse-of advancing the intereste
Of France lf uotowas not the fair inference thet
Buouaparte considered that authority as 'having
Lam dead-beira ? Would he not otherwise have
endeavhured to avail himself of it •h
-But his object
in senbjegatint. the Papal. dominions vas to "seize,
not the Po,e's spiritual influence, but his
terriporal pos cessions. -Ifethis ivere so, he-asked
the.sl-Iyho • talked of tlangers.to be, apprehended
frown the,powyer of:the Pope—where that power--
existed ? It had been. destroyed in Rome. It lihd
been-destroyed in the othereatlolic countries of Fee-
rope. Wh yee even the 'Pope resided he kneW not.
The. Papa'ianthority had been extinguished'. by
Btionaparee, who had.set up his own' inlien of it..
So muelh'fhr the danger to' be apprehended from
the Pope. • -With respect to the second
thedoe-triues held by the Catholic Church, \vhat
was state of that, question ?—He 'contended that
the influence of the Pope-over the teat on] off -
of the Catholics (or over the spiri''ie as they bore
.Upon the temporal), had been completely 'abjured
by them: The Cathoiics• denied the eXistence of
any such authoeity. Whenever ihterebghtede
they told those by ;,vitoin th.ey were eXaironed,
that such a doctrine had never beer: heldby them;
or that if ever held, it was 'not now heid., in the
oaths which the Catholics bad taken, thevrenottne,
ed the temporal authority of the 'lope.' All the
learned Catholic 'Universities concnrred in rev,-'
nouneing that opinion. • Pius VI. the last free
Pope,'in the exercise of his.freedom, renounced
that principle. But it was e.esertedrbyeome;that
it Was not renounced by. the authority by- which it
was at first esXablished. The'doctrine 'proceeded
originally front a General Connell, and it seemed
that it had not been renounced by a Getforal Coun-
cil. This was a stronger reason than any other
for believing that the principle. had ceased. There
had been no. General Council, at which a fOemal
reuunciation . could have taken place, The com-
plaint then wa,i, that the 'authority whence this
principle first proceeded Lid not now exist, and
could not be revived. Was this a proof of danger ?
Under all these impressions he would again: -call
upon their Lordships—he would- ask them 'if. the
general spirit and frame of the haws against the
Catholics-e-elaws, inconsistent with the character of
the British. Constitution, inconsistent with .the
equal d>cussion of civil and religious rights;
founded on circumstances of a temporary nature,
winch had ceased' to exist, supported by the ap-
prehension of danger no where to he found—he
asked if their Lordships would mt,intainthatthis
frame'oflaWs, abounding with anomalies hie- Ong-

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