The Sun.
London, England, 1841-09-28 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDONAIJESDAY, SEPT

(the parish was Royston, near Oldham)—and that he
received only ls. 611. a-week for the support of his fa-
mily, which consisted of five persons. He (Sir Bober,
(i
iqnu i
oneI; intooof the
t t a t
at
ga es
tnit.
ae
tnets,
Peel)andh et hroe tic
egihv ted it
ahni s
answer
of
ri
of that place to the following effect, viz., that the Magis-
trates of Royston having their attention called to the ease
alluded to, which appeared in a statement in the 7'ones,
newspaper, and being read in presence of himself and two
brother Magistrates, the overseers said it was untrue,
and that a single instance like the case described (lid
nor occur in a district of 60,000 inhabitants in Lan-
cashire and Yorkshire. The writer then said that no
case of the kind came within his observation.—(Loud
cheers.) They could not inquire into cases of a vague
description, but the House would concur with him in
the propriety of Hon. Members abstaining from bringing
forward cases of that description, unless they were borne
out by facts that came under their cognizance, and of the
correctness of which they were satisfied.—(Cheers.) He
admired the patience and long-suffering of the working
classes, which he thought was a bright .feature in the
national character, but he thought they ought to be
cautious from that example in listening to statements of
that kind not founded on fact.—(Cheers.)
Lord PALMEIiSTON did not rise for the purpose of
making any objection to the particular proposition
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because
he was ready to admit that if Government
did not get the vote that Session, which they pro-
posed to the House, for the purpose of making
(rood the deficiency in the revenue—if they did not get
a vote to supply the deficiency of the country, by relax-
ing the commercial code, by giving a fresh development
to the industry of the country, and by taking off some
of those fetters which confined that industry—he said
he was ready to admit that the course now adopted
may have the effect of immediately driving Government
to lay on fresh taxes. But, at the same time, he trusted
it would mark the course of the Government, which re-
turned to Parliament with a majority ; and would show
the country, which had niurned them there, that it
was paying 2,500,0001. for its gratification.—(Cheers.)
The price which the country would have to pay for the
gratification of having the Right Honourable Gentleman
and his Colleagues in power would be an addition of
two-and-a-half millions to the debt of the country ;
and he trusted that the country in the results would not
find them too dear at the price.—(Hear, hear, and
laughter.) He was perfectly prepared with his Right
Hon. Friend to agree to the course proposed by her
Majesty's present Ministers, as being, under the cir-
cumstances in which they stood, the least of the evils
of which they could make selection, but having said that,
he must repeat, that he could not but -express his
entire disapprobation of the general course the Government
seemed determined to follow.—(llear, hear.) It was
perfectly true that it would be unreasonable to expect
that the Government should now come down and state in
detail the system of increased taxation by which they i
hoped in the ensuing year to make the expenditure and
income equal. He was in hopes that they had now got I
a Government that could forte' future events,. for lie
would assert that they must be able to do so in order to
make the expenditure equal to the income of the country.
—(Hear, hear.) He quite agreed that it would be un-
reasonable now to call upon the Right Ilon. Baronet to
state the course he intended to pursue, assuming that the
Government had made up their minds as to that course.
If they were to understand that the Government had
made up their minds, then one question which they had
all asked had been answered.—(Hear, hear.) They had
a right to ask the question—not what detailed measures
they intended to propose, but whether they intended to
make up the deficiency that existed by proposing fresh
taxes, or whether they intended to do it by relaxing the
present commercial system, by increasing the comforts
of the people, and by giving a fresh stimulus to the
commerce of the country?—(Hear, hear.) Upon that
question he (Lord Palmerston) could not admit their
plea for delay. Upon that question they turned
out the late Government, and they did so without
necessity--.(Hear, hear, and laughter.) The present
Government, he would venture to sayNid not go to the
division on that question without having made up their
minds as to the substitute they intended to propose, and
considering the time that had elapsed, he thought the\
had no excuse for not being able to state plainly to the
country whether they adhered to the doctrine they laid
down upon the discussion of the sugar duties.—(Hear,
hear.) That question affected so deeply the great in-
terests of the country that it had a right to know what
the Government intended to do upon it. That there
would be a deficiency was admitted as a certainty, because
the right Hon. Bart. who spoke last had acknowledged
that whatever reduction he might hope to make would
not go to the extent of equalizing the expenditure,
with the revenue.—(Hear, hear.) When they were told that
the large expenditure was the fault of the late Government
he must beg to remind the House that with respect to the ex-
penditure of the army and navy they had been constantly urged
by the other side o t the House to increase their expenditure
in those two departments instead of diminishing it ; and, there-
fore, if any charge was to be made against the late Govern-
ment it must be one of being tardy in expending the public
money, and not one of being lavish of it—(Hear, hear, hear. )
Upon those two heads of expenditure he thought the Govern-
ment would not be able to make any reduction ?—(Hear,
hear.) He must press upon the Government, if they should
think it consistent with their duty to make any reduction in the
naval force of the country, to do it upon the consideration of I
the country alone, and not in conjunction with any foreign
country.—( Hear.) With respect to the question of commer-
cial policy the Government intend to adopt, he thought, before
Parliament separated, the House and the country ought to be
informed of the course the Government intended to pursue.—
(Hear, hear ) The question of the Corn-laws, in his opinion,
imperatively called for consideration. Upon that question,
however, the country was quite in the dark as to what the in-
tentions of the Government were.—(Hear, hear ) Those in-
tentions were only to be collected by what had fallen from dif-
ferent members of the Administration, when addressing their
constituents. Upon that question there was evidently dis-
union in the Cabinet—upon that ques•ion there was a thing
that could not be concealed.—(Cheers and laughter.) That
being the case, the Cabinet being disunited on that great
question. it was but fair to give them time to come to one opi-
nion or the other.—( Hear, acid laughter.) The country ought to
wait a decent time to give the Ministers an oppor-
tunity of coming to some decision ; but there was a limit
to that period, and he (Lord Palmerston) did not think the
decision of the Cabinet ought to be put off to be the subject of
Christmas revels.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) If it was
necessary, in order to enable the Government to come to a
decision on the Corn-law question, that time should be given
them, he thought that Parliament ought to meet again at the
latter part of the autumn.—(Hear, hear.) One of the first
duties of the Government was to attend to the interests of the
country and to consult its feelings.—( Hear, hear.) But
then it was said that the distress was exaggerated, and that the
meetings that had taken place day by day, on the subject of
that distress were only the means by which party spirit was
displayed.—( Elear, hear.) There could be no doubt that
there was great distress in the country, and that that distress
was owing to the Corn-laws, and he (Lord Palmerston) must,
therefore, say, that in decency the Government ought
not to postpone the announcement of their intentions
on the great question of the Corn-laws.—(Hear, hear.)
He knew something of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, and
from his knowledge of him, he could not, until he saw Par-
liament prorogued without any announcement of the inten
Lions of the Government, believe that he would adopt any such
course.—( Hear, hear.) He would never believe that the
Right Hon. Barnet would prorogue Parliament to February,
leaving the country in a feverish state of agitation upon so
impor'ant a question as the Corn-laws, and taking upon him-
self all the responsibility of anything unpleasant that might
happen. Without offering the slightest opposition to the mea-
sures, and without pressing the Government unfairly, he would
intreat the Right Hon. Baronet to use all the powers he pos-
sessed to bring the Cabinet to some derision one way or other
in the course of the autumn. If the decision of the Government
was to stand by the Corn-laws as they at present existed, all
he asked was, that they would let the country know it, in order
that they might make up their minds to it--( Hear, hear)
and in order also that the agriculturists might have the con-
solation of knowing that the Corn-laws would remain as they
were. If, however, on the other hand, the Government thought
they could make some alteration in the graduated scale, then,
he asked them to let the consumer know that fact.—(Hear,
hear.) In his opinion it was a mistake for the landowners to
suppose that the Corn-laws were a benefit to them—they
were no such thing; at all events, the present uncertainty was
injurious to every body.—( Hear, hear.) He hoped that
when the time for the prorogation came they would either
be told what course the Government intended to pursue, or
that they intended to call Parliament together in the begin-
ning of November, in order then to state what their inten-
tions were.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. FIELDEN then proceeded to address the House, but
in so low a tone as to render it almost impossible to catch a
single sentence that fell from the Hon. Member. We, how-
ever, understood him to say that the manufacturers in Oldham
were in so distressed a condition that they were obliged to work
their mills for short time, and that they did so more out of con,
sideration for their men than themselves. But notwithstanding
this distress, their taxes and burthens were increased. The
state of the manufacturing districts was such that something
must be done, and he trusted, therefore, that when the Right
mliati3nninneßrcatm.h.
alnvte
TouaDlddebaeiffnioiqeruvdierrdye
loti
enhfattthoe subject, he would do it in a
the
me
sdtaisttermesesnedts.
of the Hon.
Member for Oldham were most true, that a large portion of
the mills were working short time, and that more from eonsi-
deration to the working men than for the profits
of rhe.
nufacturers. They looked to the measures
po ed bymttaie
p
late Government as the sole means of enabling them to carry
on their trade, and thereby give employment to their workmen.
He conceived, with his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Baring)
that the explanation of the Right Hon. Chancellor of tho Ex-
chequer had rendered the proposed financial transaction leSs
clear than it before appeared. It appeared simple, until he
told them the funding of the Exchequer Bills was his main ob-
ject. If so, in what manner did he propose to obtain his ways
How, oibulled for him to tell, until
March next, give and means for covering the deficiency ? According to the terms
gi him Exchequer
offered to the
wphuebtlhicer,
Bills or money.it
the w apsubilmi el) would
then, was he to provide his ways and
means? His Right Hon. Friend, the late Chancellor of the
Exchequer, proposed to obtain twenty-two millions from the
Customs, exclusive of sugar and corn.—(No, no.) Oh, that
included the sum of 500,000/. from corn. Well, he would be
glad to know what amount the Chancellor of the Exchequer an-
from sugar ? The last Government
ticiaated in the present year
estimated the sum to be obtained from that source at 700 0901
and it was admitted that that was a low estimate—that it
would amount to 900,0001., but not by the admission of fo-
reign grown sugar, but from the importation of an increased
quantity from our own colonies, both east and west. The
-
maxim of the Chancellor of the Exchequer last year was "Let
well alone," meaning that our colonies would produce to the
revenue as much as if the foreign sugar was admitted at a
lower duty. The Right Hon. Baronet, however, took upon
that occasion another view of the question--he opposed the
Budget of his Right Hon. Friend because, he said, it must
have failed, for so much foreign sugar as was admitted would
displace so much of the produce of our own colonies. Now he
would like to know which the House was to rely upon, the
calculations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or that i f the
First Lord of the Treasury?—( Hear, hear.) Such discre-
pancies between two such high officers indicated that
they,: was not that harmony at the Treasury Board which
he would like to see. He had never taken any part in asking
the Right Hon. Baronet to come forward and say what course
he intended to take. But he would not be doing his dnty to
the Right Hon. Baronet or to his constituents, if he did not
say that the course taken by him was not one that would or could
give satisfaction to the country.—(Hear, hear.) He was
ready to admit, that, had power fallen into his hands in an
accidental manner, or had it come to him unexpectedly, it
would have been his duty to take time fur the consideration of
his measures. But when he took office upon the very grounds
—when his attention was called to the subject in 1840—when
the Budget was brought forward, within a month after the ex-

piration of the financial tear, and that five months had elapsed
since that time, he did not think it was either just or proper
for the Ministry now to say that more time should be granted
to them to make up their minds.—( Hear.) They attributed
the distress to overtrading—to the Joint-stock Banks—
but, whether it was one or other of these causes, or whetter
it was attributable to the Corn-laws, or a system of vicious
Legislation, it was agreed on all hands that it could not be
removed except by an extension of our manufactures and trade,
which could only be effected by a large revisal of our fiscal
regulations. The Right Hon. Boronet said the country ap-
proved of his conduct, because, before the election, he had
stated what it would be—he (Mr. Wood) admitted the fact
—the Right Hon. Baronet stated it before the dissolution ;
but he ( Mr. Wood) confessed he very much doubted the
accuracy of the impression made upon the mind of the Hon.
Baronet—his declaration was very little known in the country.
Last year Hon. Gentlemen opposite opposed the Budget, and
talked loudly of their opposition to any addition to the Debt;
but now they came forward and proposed the very measure
they so much decried. After what had taken place last year,
the country had a right to expect any other course
from the Honourable Gentlemen than the one they
had taken. He admitted they had received the confidence
of the country ; but they had received the support of the dif-
ferent bodies on very different grounds. The agriculturists in
the counties gave their support in the confident hope of main-
taining the Corn-laws; but no one could say for a moment that
the support given to gentlemen opposite in the manufacturing
districts was because of the attachment of the manufacturers
to the Corn-laws. The verdict of the country was more
against the men than the measures.—( Hear, hear.) Some
doubted, however erroneously, the sincerity of the late Go-
vernment, while others aouiited their power to carry the Inca-
sur'es they bad propounded, therefore they changed ; but they
did not give their support to the Right Hon. Baronet, because
he would do nothing for a whole year. He believed they gave
it more because they expected Hon. Gentlemen opposite would
do more than the late Government. It was a gross fallacy to
say that the sliding scale prevented fluctuations or protected
the grower. Look at what had taken place only
during the past week. When corn was high some time ago,
the foreign corn was prohibited, and our farmers had none to
give—they were prevented from taking advantage of the high
prices. By-and-bye comes the harvest, but just before our
farmers have their supply ready, the sliding scale suddenly
admits one million and a half of quarters of corn, at the duty
of Is., an I so depriving him of his market be unnaturally re-
ducing the price. Every one knew that the high price of corn
had no effect on wages. That was shown ever since 1t136.
From that period corn had been gradually rising, while wages
had been as gradually falling. But he was happy that that
was now a fact admitted by the Noble Lord opposite (Stanley).
No doubt the great difficulty was the Corn-laws. That was
the question which defeated: the Budget of his Right Hon.
Friend, for Mr. Handley frankly admitted that he supported
the sugar monopoly merely as a defence for his own. He felt
confident that some such measures musk be forthcoming. No
doubt the difficulties of the Right Hon. Baronet would be
great, and it would require all the time between then and
February to win over his supporters to such a course ; but when
party excite Tent abated, the feelings of humanity, which were
largely possessed by the landed proprietors of England, would
come into full play, their eyes would become eyen to the fal-
lacies which they had been taught to belie,e—they must soon
see that it was ridiculous to talk of the independence of this
country for a supply of food, when at least one million of
quarters had been imported every year since the law passed.
They must know that an increased population, without any in-
crease of production, must destroy independence, and then they
would be actuated by a feeling of kindness to do all in their
power to alleviate the distress of the country. If all that
should be accomplished by the delay asked for by the Right
Hon. Baronet, he would cheerfully acquiesce in it, as it would
be one of the greatest of blessings ever conferred on the
country.
. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER here made
a few observations in explanation across the table, which did
not distinctly reach us. We understood the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman to say that he presumed his Right Hon. Friend ( Mr. F.
Baring) had made his estimates in the usual way. He did not
pretend to state beforehand what every item was likely to pro-
duce, but taking the amount of the revenue at stated periods,
and balancing the deficiencies and the increases, he could arrive
at something like an approximation to the amount.—
Hear, hear.) With respect to corn, it was admitted
in every discussion that had taken place upon the subject that
what was received by way of duty upon that article was lost in
others, and what was lost by corn was gained in the increased
consumption of other articles. He (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) had never thought of stating, in ignorance of what
the probable result of the harvest might be, what was the
amount of duty to be derived from corn. As regarded the
article of sugar in the last year, there had been a reduction in
the amount of the duty of 163,0001. ; but upon the whole of
the year, up.to the present period, there had been an augmenta-
tion to the amount of 120,000/. ; and in the course of the last
four months the augmentation upon the sugar duties, amounted
to nearly 300,0001., as compared with the corresponding period
of last year.

Mr. F. BARING wished to know whether the Right Hon.
Gentleman expected to derive an additional revenue of 7e0,000/.
from British plantation sugar, without making any alterati9n in
the present rate of duties ?
The CHANCEBLOR of the EXCHEQUER and M. C. WOOD
made a few observations, after which the resolution for fund-
ing five millions of Exchequer Bills was put and agreed to.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE-
QUER, who stated that only half the amount had been voted
in the last Session of Parliament, a sum of 10,626,350/., to be
raised by Exchequer Bills, was voted to make good the esti-
mates voted for the service of her Majesty for the year 1841.
The House then resumed, and the Report was ordered to
be received to-morrow.
POOR LAWS.
Sir J. GRAHAM moved the order of the day for going into
Committee on the Poor-law Commissioners Continuance Bill.
On the question that the Speaker do leave the Chair,
Mr. WAKLEY hoped that considering the late hour of
the night—(Loud cries of " Oh, oh" )—he thouat, consider-
ing the great concessions that had been made by himself and
other Hon. Members in not opposing the Bill, that they were
entitled to have a full discussion of the measure, and by that
means in the next Session of Parliament they might hope to
have a measure which would be s msewhat satisfactory to the
House and the country. lf, however, it was the desire of the
House that the Bill should be proceeded with he would riot in-
terfere.—(Cries of " Go on.")

Mr. YORKE trusted the House would indu7ge him for a
few moments while he brought forward the motion, cf which
he had given notice, and in order that Hon. Members might
be in possession of the object of that motion, he would take the
liberty of rcading it to the House. That it ba an instruction to
the Committee on the Poor-law Commission Bill, to insert a
clause to the follots ing effect :—" That the Commissioners be
not emiltwered to-enforce iiidiserimMate separation between
man and wife, and that in no ca=e shall they sanction or permit
separation when the application for relief shall be suustatitiated
as arising from positive inahiity to obtain work, or from
physical infirmity, and not from idleness, vice, or crime."
He submitted that resolution to them on authority which ap-
peared to him unexceptionable. He proposed to justify it on
the evidence of the humane and enlightened gentlemen on the
other side, whose kindly feelings of benevolence, acting upon
them in the months of June and July last—( Hear, hear).—
prompted them to proclaim throughout the country, that only
which he asked f,-;r, namely, that " those whom God had join-
ed, let no man put asunder."—( Hear, hear.) He proposed it
also in conformity with the Scridtural law, which taught them
practical charity to all men, and to do to others as they would
be done by. The distress which at present existed throughout
the country was undeniable, and unless some steps were taken
to remedy it, he feared it would lead to mischief. The remedy
was one which, perhaps, they wet e not at the present moment
able to supply ; but he believed the distress would be very
much alleviated by removing from poverty a legislative penalty,
and he put it to the House whether such a step would not be
calculated to soften the asperities of the great mass of the suf-
fering community ? He was anxious that the integrity of his
clause should not he compromised by the idea that it was in-
tended to include the worthless or abandoned. At the present
moment the national stomach was unfed —( Hear, and a laugh.)
It struck him that that was a subject for sympathy and regret,
rather than ridicule and laughter.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The
courery being in the state he had referred to, he
put it to the House whether it was fitting that the
people should be punished for their poverty ? As the
law at present stood, a married man could not accept relief
without incurring a penalty which was repugnant to hu-
man nature. He had prepared some statements on the subject,
which at the present advanced hour he would not trouble the
House with, but he would merely refer to the Slave Emancipa-
tion Act, for the purpose of showing the extreme care with
which the framers of that Act had provided for the social ties of
the negroes, and made provision that under no circumstances
should they be removed from one plantation to another, if it
subjected them to separation from their wives and families, or
even their reputed wives. If they accorded to the Commis-
sioners the power they hitherto possessed, the wife of the negro
during the existence of slavery, stood in a better position than
the wife of the Engl'sh pauper would be. That was his case,
and he put it not to their mercy, but to their justice and hu-
manity.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he would avail himself
of the opportunity which the present motion afforded,
of announcing to the House the course which he
would take with respect ..to that motion, and to the sub-
sequent ones about to be made on the same subject. He
(pies-
ti didon
sn, obtu
tmheea nd
dt on
td
be ne
lyi
etvhee gieneral iem
tp rto
dainz
ue
im-
mediately connected with the interests of so large a portion of
which touched more nearly on the feelings, :.saosf
aninthyoesr:
subject
their tellow-countrymen; and feeling that, sincerely as he did,
he was impressed with a sense of the necessity of approaching
the subject with caution. If he followed Honourable Gen-
tleman in discussions on that particular question, involving a
portion of the workhouse regulation, it would bo impossible not
to follow other Honourable Gentlemen into other details, and
thus incidentally and gradually, but with his eyes open to the
inconvenience of such party discussions, he should be betrayed
into a discussion of all the details of the Poor-law. Ile thought
it necessary to be thus explicit. The object of the Govern-
went in introducing the present. Bill was to avoid pre-
cisely the discussion of the pints which Honourable
Gentlemen now brought forward, and to afford tittle arid
opportunity carefully and cautiously to Consider eViVy
portion of that important titeßstire Which was adopted by the
Legislature Ave or six years ago. There might be defects
which they were anxious to supply, and imperfections Which
they were desirous to remedy, but those consitleratietti requieed
time and caution. To be done stibly, the thing Must be done
by the Government upon their responsibility. They did not
shrink from the arduous duty of considering this qiiestion df
remedying the imperfections of the laslblit he repeated that
caution was neeesserys They only thought that the Commis-
sion should be continued till the close of the next Session of
Parliament. Before the commencement of the next Sessiclit
Government woad turn their attention to the ntir'e Hbject. In
the course of last Session theft laheurs *ere cut short on the
question, and seine of the proposals of the late Government
were withdrawn, others were adopted and amended, and it very
considerable proportion of those peoposals Were hot con-
sidered at all. Now, it eroUld be the duty of the
present Government to consider all 'those proposals
On the present occasion, therefore, the House ought nOt to
enter into a discussion of the Poor-laws in detail, slit confine
iutnsedlefrtaollthcie
resinntnnbgferoet:sleirehtig.,:eeluntrn'ihelleleeee::::iu.tn,:eHiln.oadiwonttGfinia:rt:s.ernnant°.Gaush:
Inleeeinnwlmm:ttbi.lialtocewilneifOrtmnakdgxrsaohatpnpit,e7uostdsoshveieseegeinntoneetan3t/Ilantlsratiidtibbid.huiolneuinti
re,ttiaho,twtthhmithwof;wechett
oohtuv
,ohumee,baalr:d.st.,
jestttbtmh:
y:iarnsonts whiomovenmao thishs
ex-
isted under local Acts. Wherever several parishes had been
united by such Acts there was a large number of both sexes col-
lected together, and from the absolute necessity of the case a
division of the sexes was obliged to be had recourse to. Such
tathaiedcond
oulskullt
particular
ryt
had been the case in the Gilbert union for the last fifty years, and in the Isle of Wight, where, under local Acts,
something
identical with a union had existed fora long time. Any argument
against the fact must be an argument against the assembling of
a large number of paupers in the same place. It would be his
duty then to resist the instruction moved by the Hon. Gentle-
man, and, on the same ground, to resist all the other instruc-
tions referring to the question of the Poor-law regulations.
He trusted the Hon. Gentleman would not think that his oppo-
sition to the instruction arose from any disrespect for the sub-
, ject of which it treated. It was net that Government disre-
garded any matter of the kind so intimately connected with
the condition of the poor ; but they were most anxious not to
make any mistake in a matter so immediately affecting the in-
terests of that class.

. _ .
Mr. STUART WORTLEY said there was great reason
in what had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet who had just
sat down, and he trusted the lion. Member for York would
not, by pressing his motion, place Hon. Gentlemen in a posi-
tion of some difficulty to *hose inclinations it was repugnant I
to give a vote contrary to the principle of the instruction
which he wished to submit to the House. Proposing to make
any alteration in the Poor-law could only have the effect of
opening the question of other alterations, which would be, in
fact, undertaking to do that which would be impossible for the
Government at present, namely, to commence the entire dis-
cussion of that great and extensive question. Under those
circumstances he could nat kelp thinking that it was by no
means an unreasonable request if the Hon. Member should be
asked to give in on the present occasion and let this great subject
be discussed hereafter. .He.(Mr. S. Wortley) did not mean in
the slightest to give countenance to that principle which the
Hon. Gentleman meant to condemn—that principle which
justified separation of husband and wife to the extent to
which it had been carried. But what the Right Hon. Mem-
ber for Dorchester said was perfectly true—that the separation
of the sexes depended on the question as to whether they
should collect large numbers of paupers into one Union.
Therefore if they discussed whether they would separate the
sexes, they should, to deal fairly with the subject, go into the
whole question.—(Loud cheers.) That appeared to him as a
good reason for adjourning this important and extensive ques-
tion. If the Hon. Gentleman persisted in pressing his in-
struction, it would be extremely repugnant to his (sir. S.
Wortley's) inclinations and feelings to give any vote which
would countenance a principle of the description under con-
sideration. Yet he confessed under existing circumstance!.
—( Cheers and laughter from the Opposition benches.) He knew
what that cheer meant. He was unwilling, it was supposed,
to face the question which the Hon. Gentleman was inclined to
place before the House, lest he should be placed in any embar-
rassment with respect to her Majesty's Ministers. That was
not the case. He would take an opportunity of expressing his
opinions fully on the subject, and he would not shrink from snak-
ing known to Ministers what he felt on the subject. He
thought it desirable that they should do one of two things—
either to proceed at once to the entire discussion of the Poor-
law, and deal with it as they intended to do at a future period,
or else they should allow the question, together with those
matters which would open the whale subject, to remain at rest
until the period arrived at which it appeared reasonable they
should enter upon the consideration of the entire mea-
sure.—( Hear, hear,) If they allowed discussion on one point,
they should allow it on all others—( Hear)—the bastardy
clause—that regarding out-door relief, &c., and if the House
was prepared then to enter upon the whole, why it might do
so. But he thought the Right Hon. Baronet and his col-
leagues in office were justified, under the circumstances in
which they arrived at power, in asking for some lapse of time
for the purpose of consicering a question of such importance as
the Poor-laws, with the attention and care it required—a ques-
tion which the Whig Government of 1833 and 1834 took two
3ears to consider, and respecting which, certainly, the present
t,overrinit•nt had sense right to demand a few months, with a
view of considering it fully before they brought in a Bill to put
the measure in a satisfactory state. There was one instruc-
tion to which he did riot entertain these objections, and that
was the first one which was proposed by the Hon. Member for
Rochdale, namely, " has it shall not be lawful for the Com-
missioners, from the date of the passing of this Bill, to declare
the formation of any new unions in disti jets which are not al-
re:dy placed under tha opera-ion of the Act 4 and 5 Will. IV.,
c. 7n." 'I hat instruction had reason and justice in it, indepen-
dent of the merits of the general question. Tie general ques-
tion reepscting the amendment to the law was at present in a
state of suspense. He believed that those who were thoroughly
interested in the question—those whom the future proceedings"
of the Commissioners might deeply affect, had fairly a right to
ask, that during the period the question was to be put
in suspense, the Commissioners should abstain from
carrying their operations further than they had been already
carried. He, therefore, must say that towards the principle of
that instruction he entertained a different opinion from that
he had towards the others. lie thought that so long as it should
remain in that state of uncertainty in which it must be before
a Bill on the subject was brought before the House—during that
period he thought the Commissioners should not pro-
ceed to extend the Unions over other parts of the
country. The districts which be had the honour of represent-
ing were deeply interested in that part of the subject ; and he
did but his duty towards those districts when he said that they
had a right to ask, that that question should be left its statu
quo, as the case required,
Mr. V. SMITH said, he certainly felt for the embarrassed
state in which the Hon. Gent. found himself, in being sud-
denly called on to take one side or the other on this important
question. He (Mr. Vernon Smith) thought the course sugs
gested by the Hon. Gentleman unbecoming the House. That
Hon. Member bid them waive the questions which were of most
importance—delicate and interesting questions—questions of
weight and moment. But let them consider the questions
which had been proposed by the Hon. Member for Rochdale.
Now it appeared to him that they were not to discuss any great
question this Session. So it had been said by the Right Hon.
Baronet at the head of the Government. The present was not, he
thought, the only deviation from that regulation which would
be attended with inconvenience. He conceived that this ques-
tion was one of such intense interest, that if they were not to
discuss the Corn-laws in conjunction with it they
ought to separate it from that measure after the pro-
clamation of those miraculous Ministers who were
to • advise nothing they having nothing to advise
the Crown.—( Hear, and laughter.) If such was to be
the case, he thought the position of the Right Hon. Member
for Dorchester not an unfair one. But he must say, that the
embarrassment -of the lion. Gentleman who had last spoken
was to be attributed, not to the Right Hon. Baronet opposite,
but to the course pursued by lion. Gentlemen on the other
side of the House. It should be recollected, when Govern-
ment said they meant to continue all expiring laws from De-
cember, that the Poor-law required no continuance ; it was
the Commission only which expired ; and when the Right Hon.
Gentleman proposed the continuance of the Commission, he
did not say for what time he meant to continue it. Would
it not be more manly if the Right Honourable Gen.
tleman thought that the Commission ought to last for five
years, to have proposed that period at once, and not
to be pottering with Parliament in such a way. The Right
lion. Baronet declared over and over again, that five years was
the period that. he wished the Commission to continue, and if
he proposed that period there would be no difficulty in con-
trolling the Commission. lie (Mr. V. Smith) did not mean
to object to the proposal of the Right Hon. Member for Dor-
chester, but if any man was to settle the question, assuredly that
Right Hon. Gentleman was the person. He (Mr. V. Smith)
had lately read a speech of a Noble Lord elected for:Monmouth
( Lord G. Somerset), who made a sort of apology for having
the Right Hun. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) and the Noble
Lord (Lord Stanley) in the Cabinet.—( Hear, hear.)
He said they were very talented and able men, but as
for himself he regretted to see them in the Cabinet. He
( Mr. V. SS) therefore extremely rejoiced to see the Right
Hon. Member for Dorchester coming forward on the present
occasion. If he was called on to vote he should vote against
all instructions equally, in order that the whole object for
consideration would he the continuance of the Poor-law Com-
missioners. Upon the continuance of that commission they
ought in his mind to he called on to give a decided opinion.
Sir R. PEEL said he was sorry to see the Hon. Gentleman
so much excited on this subject.—(Cheers.) He appeared
unable to calm his insubordinate indignation in the absence of
his leader.—(Cheers ) He (Sir R. Peel) begged leave to
acquaint him that it was intimated to him (Sir H. Peel) at an
early period of the present Session that the Noble Lord, the
late Secretary of State for the Colonial Department, had in-
tended to move for leave to introduce a Bill for the continuance
of the Poor-law until the end of the next Session of Parlia-
ment, and that the measure which he ( Sir H. Peel) now pro-
posed was exactly in conformity with that which the Noble
Lord ( Lord John Russell) himself intended to introduce.
Yes, it was intimated to him by the Member for the
City of London, lately at the head of her Majesty's Govern-
ment, that it was impossible, in the course of the present Ses-
sion, to proceed to consider those modifications in the Poor-
law, to which be had intended to call the attention of the
House, and that it had In en his intention, during the period of
his tenure of office, to give notice of a Bill, for the purpose of
continuing the Commission for the period of one Sear.—
( Cheers.) That being notified to him (Sir R. Peel) on the
part of the late Government, it did appear to him a reasonable
proposal to make the same proposition ; and he was surprised
that, on his making it, the Hon. Gentleman should have dis-
played so much unnecessary indignation.—( Cheers. )
Mr JERVIS said he was at a loss to understand how what
had fallen from the lion. Gentleman opposite could dissuade
those who were opposed to this measure from giving their op-
position to it. It might be a reason if the Hon. Gentleman
fairly represented the aliens taken by the lion. Member for
Northampton, but it was no ground whatever for calling upon
those who had formerly opposed the law, or those who were
returned for the express purpose of so doing, for now pressing
on the present Government this question, on which- at all
events, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and
the Members of the Government, must be prepared to express
an opinion, and with the details of which every Member of the
House must be acquainted; for the Right Hon. Boronet could
not urge the necessity for access to information peculiarly
within reach of the Government as aground for delay, informa-
tion on this subject being as open to all as it was to the Go.
vernment.—( Hear. ) But his Hon. Friend(Mr. V. Smith)
did not apply his observations to the Bill to lie introduced
by the Noble Lord. His complaint was, that this was not a
Bill to renew the Commission, but a Bill to renew the law;
and when the Right Hon. Baronet concurred with the Noble
Lord in renewing the Commission .for .five years, .he thought
that he ought now to be prepared to.bring forward 'his mea-
sure
boldly and openly, though he might alienate the support of
many Hon. Gentlemen, the opponents of the measure, by
whom he was brought into office.—(Hear, hear.) He appre-.
heeded they had a right to call on Hon. Gentlemen opposite to
tell them how they would deal with this measure, and having
opposed the whole Bill, though he had never lent himself to
excite the people against It, he would oppose the Government
on the question, so long as they would not boldly declare their
opinions upon it. He was happy the Right Hon. Gent. had said
that this *as something like the measure to be proposed by the
Noble Lord (J. Russell), for that would release the Hon.
Member far Finsbury (Mr. Wakley) from all his nets engages
ments—( Laughter)—fur it was certiiin that if it had been pro-
posed by the Noble Lord; he (Mr:
_sWalsley) would have op-
posed
it,
as
also woilid
rattly other Boni Gentlemen opposite.
—( Hear, hear.) When the addreis 50 the Crown stay moved,
distress was increasing.
the Hen, Member (Mr.' Wakley) doubted whether it adsititted
pstt the cities,
lion to the Bight Hoff. Baronet; *Hch:otidnAttthtietye' (14tiitniirddIrtitrihotit
taidureittel
of people were
be-
tweenatt eed prevalence 6 xhttnaexistence
iot anofn f(tii i
greate
winter,lid
consequence,ei distress. distress
ei
grdilnd tit tO? they
orrm tavitioournraluired
notd time to. spare
from their shooting and hun
' twit" tiff f • +
he
ne
thousands
ecteitions, to
inquire at least into the eatises.ot that distress? He Atidkfi Mot
of the grbat financial qtt, s' len on Which it Was said time shotild
be ado: tied; btit Of that milde adraliastefing Fetid by Which
-or' not ? dr
it was supposed by some that distress was grdatly
principles which
the RlAht Bardriet.k Sir is Gfaii,Pra) had contested, step
h(ailcieathr,ehy tt.:ioatr.t)o
deWala.
with
iftuhr further
oirniefo
by step; with Mr. Walter, the late. blerribot' for
,Nottingbam,
and beat hint on thent ? When the. Right lion. -Baronet said
that the separation of the sewn ices a necessary consequence of
assettabling a. liege body of poolis in dile InStittition,vtas he
not aware that this assembly was owing to the refusal to grant
out-door relief? And *heti they considered that, in order to
obtain relief, the poor *ate obliged td sell attyy furniture
they might possess to enter the workhouse, thereby toting from
them the means of returning to their homes--When this
was considered, and the distressed state of the poor was de-
plored in that House, but not remedied—when all this was
considered, was it too much to call upon the Right Hon. Bart.
to enter upon the consideration of the subject? And would
it satisfy the people to know that Hon. Gentlemen opposite
wanted time to inquire into What they had uniformly opposed
out of office, and on which they had excited the people to
remedy which, when in office, they had
not the courage to un-
dertake the responsibility ?—( Hear, hear, from Sir Robert
Peel.) He understood the Right Hon. Baronet's cheers, but
the Right Hon. Baronet could not accuse him of exciting his
constituents on the subject. He had never addressed them on
the subject at all.—(Hear, he ir. 1 He had been uniformly
opposed to the measure; but he had scorned to use it for the
purpose of exciting the people. He had scorned to make it the
means of his advancement out. of •the House, and to shrink
from the responsibility', of upposingiit there if it were the means
of annoyance to the party- with, which he was connected. The
only excuse that could be nisde,,for separating tlie House at
that period of the year was,,t4at. 09;11‘1. he, conveni,ept for the
pr. sent to forget this 4istrOas.a.tb, hear.)
Mr] PA KINGTOPT stiid 'B°tll4 -14ut. enter Ititti the in-
structions moved kx 66- e>i•
teniali opposite, -neither would
, •