The Sun.
London, England, 1847-05-04 00:00:00

JUDGESHIP 61' CEYLON.

Mr. B. ESCOTT wished to ask the Secretary of State
for the Colonies when the papers would be laid upon the
table of the House with respect to Mr. Langston, the
late Judge of Ceylon.
Mr. HAWES said that no delay had taken place in
laying the papers before the House. They were of a
very voluminous nature ; they had been placed in the
hands of the printer, and would be laid upon the table
of the House as shortly as possible.
FACTORIES BILL.

Mr. FIELDEN moved the third reading of the Fac-
tories Bill.

Mr. TRELAWNY rose to move that the Bill be
read a third time that day six months, and in doing so
said that it would no doubt be agreeable to the House
to hear that it was not his intention to make a long
speech, but simply to confine himself to the support of
the clauses which he had moved upon a previous stage
of the Bill. The present Bill was an experiment,
and some of the classes for whom it was intended, saw
that they were prepared to risk the evils of the measure.
He considered it as experimental legislation in the shape
of a penal measure levelled at the labouring classes. He
did not know what crime they had committed to deserve
such a penal enactment. Certain it was that the mea-
sure was a penal one. The House had come to a con-
clusion in favour of it in a must summary manner, and
all the arguments used in the debate showed that the
House was not satisfied with itself in the course
it had had adopted with respect to this measure.
He proposed to do that by this clause, which would re-
lieve the anxiety which was felt upon this measure, and
which was at least likely to be dangerous in its effect
and uncertain in its operation. He proposed to
limit the Bill in its operation to a period
of three years from the time in which it
would first come in force. The reason why
he fixed upon the period of three years was this : in the
first year of its operation there might be an unusual in-
i crease of business, and in the next year a decrease, so that
the third year would perhaps afford a fair criterion to go by.
The period of three years wolud enable the people to
know the measure in its operation better than they did
at present. It was admitted to be a purely experimental
measure, and, therefore, would be much better if passed
for a limited period than if passed permanently; so that,
if its operation were defective, the people would be not
saddled with a disagreeable and hurtful measure.
Mr. LEADER seconded the motion.
Mr. GRIMSDITCH said, that this matter hav-
ingeuld been already sufficiently discussed,
see no reason why it should be further ceohit. sid,cie,rheedy.
The question at issue he thought was selt-evident.
id
had, from 1837 to 1847, been proceeding under a former
Act, and, taking all the working hours intothmt account, he
ten
:years'
found that each day's labour .n
experience, amounted only to ten hours per day. Why
should they, then, oppose the passing of this measure ?
Mr. Grimsditch, amid muchdecdontte'useioanil,
the
ed
altt,euedtiecnrieesf
of " Divide, divide,"
the Hon. Member
in the
to the number of the
men . the manufacturing. districts were
hours which
required to occupy with labour, and then went on to say
that he believe that the restriction to the ten hours
work would be a great benefit to the working men,
while it could be no detriment whatever to the manu-
facturers.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said, upon that occasion the
words he should address to the House would be
but few, because he had been permitted on a
former occasion to express at large the reasons
which induced him to view with apprehension
the step
the House was about to take. It was no agree-
able task for him to express opinions at vari.ince with
those entertained by many of his friends, with
whom
he had long been in cordial coopera-
tion, and for whom he f-It the greatest respect.
He felt bound to state to the House that, after carOully
reconsidering the opinions he had always entertained
upon this subject, his objection to the measure remained
unaltered and unshaken. He felt that the House was
about to make a most perilous experiment,
while he was no less convinced that it would not pro-
duce the results that were expected of it, but,
on the contrary, he thought it would result
in deep disappointment to its promoters, He
could not say that he had listened
ith any
great favour to the proposal of the Hon. Member for
Tavistock. The Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down
proposed that if they passed the third reading of this
Hill its operation should be continued for only three
years, to try it as an experiment. Now,
one
of his objections to thismeasure was that
it could not be tried as an experiment.
He must do those lion. Members who had supported the
Bill the justice to say that they had not sought to conceal

seeeeeeeeeseereseeeeeeese,,,---e., ~.eeepeeeseeeeeeee
from the House that the effect of this measure would
be to limit the factory labour for adults to ten
hours a day. He could not bring himself to believe
that, at a time when all other descriptions of labour were
left unrestricted, and when those foreign natioes who
were our competitors in industry were working more
than twelve hours a day, that the present was a step for
the country to take, or that it would produce any-
thing else but embarrassment to our manufacturers,
and wide spread distress among the working classes ofthe
country.—(Hear, hear.) He could not agree with the
opinion that it was immaterial whether the question
discussed, were discussed as a question of prin -
(epic or one of degree, he believed it to be
very important in whatever view it was discussed.
He could not discuss it as a question of abstract prin-
ciple, he had supported interference in factory labour so
long as it should be done safely and wisely, but the
present question was different from all others which he
had supported with reference to factory labour. The
w for the limitation of labour in factories to ten hours
was to be inflexible. The manufacturers were not to be
allowed to make up for short time by working longer
hours, and whatever should happen to be the
state of the market, or whatever might be the
demands for labour, the manufacturer was net
to be allowed to employ labour for more than ten
hours a day, and it was his opinion that the present
measure if passed into law would be productive
of the most disastrous results to the manufacturers
and to the working cleeses of the country!
An Hon. Friend of his, the Member for Belfast, had said
that if this measure were passed into a WV'
that Ireland ought to be exsmpted ?rem it. Con-
sidering the present state of the people of Ireland, he
thought that this measure would lead to the most un-
fortunate results, for the lengthened hours of labour
were by no means the worst evil to ahich the
people of any couutry could be subjected.—(Hear.) The
handloom weavers in Ireland were in a most destitute
and distressed state. By weaving a web of fifty or sixtl
yards they could only earn 2s. 6d. to 3s. per weea
and in many instances they sat up two or threo
nights of the week to provide food for their
families ; under such circumstances, could it be said that
if a well-regulated cotton factory were set up in Relent!
that it would not be a benefit to the people, even though
they should be compelled to work 12 or 13 hours a dee':
Such was the state of things in Ireland, and the ques-
tion tion came to this, how would they deal with other trade
if
and branches in connexioniwith the cotton trade ?
they legislated for those in factories, they would also
have to legislate for fustian cutters and similar branches.
He confessed, however, that as between a ten and
an
eleven hours Bill, he was in favour of the letter.
He was absent on a former occasion, when the Eleven
Hours' Bill was under discussion, else he should have
supported it, and would do so to-night, were another op-
portunity afforded. At present, however, be would jet)
for the amendment before the House.—(Divide, The' of
Mr. H. STANSFIELI) rose amidst loud cries
" Divide, divide." He culled on them to pause ere
they passed the Bill, which would seriously ,endanger
twelve millions of capital invested in the cotton trade,
and abstract two millions of money from the revenue.--
(Great confusion.)
Mr. HUME was surprised to see such impatieec°
manifested; interfering as the Bill would with the
whole industry of the country. He knew the
many Hon. Gentlemen were desirous to get to dinner,
still that was no reason why they should sum
manly dispose of the present question. lie had also
been in favour of the rights of the industrious classes,
but he could not consent to the present Measure'
It was extraordinary, that in a free-trade Parliament'
that a motion for the destruction of free trade :haul"
been
receive so much support. He had always
a friend to the working classes, and he might appeal to
the House for a confirmation of the assertion,
that he had invariably voted for an improvement the
those classes, they should recollect that of all tut;
articles which were employed in the furtherance.
the manufacturing interests, capital was the most dee',
cate. Land would remain, and the labourers would
remain, but in the event of the resources Wile
he would remind the country gentlemen that t 7
whole of the tax must be upon property, and jet!,
Ht
in proportion to the want on the one side would be the
tax on the other. Ile should, therefore, vote for Jo
reading of this Bill on this day six months.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, the Hotta*
divided, when there appeared—
Se
For the amendment
Against it
3
Majority for the third reading
Upon our readmission we found Mr. TRELAu e'ef
moving the insertion of a clause limiting the duration.
wench
the Act to three years, from and after the day on
it should have become law.
Strangers were again ordered to withdraw; no diTie
sion, however, took place, the clause having been with-
drawn, and the Bill was read a third time without &
division, and passed.
THE GREEK LOAN.
On the order of the day being read for going into *
Committee of Supply,
Lord J. MANNERS rose to move for a return of all
moneys paid by Great Britain on account of the interest
of the Greek loan, up to the Ist day of January, 1847'
The Noble Lord after
glancing at the conditions 011
which England had guaranteed to pay interest on part,
of the loans, and contending that they had been violated,
and this country absolved from continuing the payments,
proceeded to read a lengthy report on the subject from
Committeeah
te
subject,appoin andbytedto re
the Frenchportupon
Chambers to in-
vestigatepon so Hs went
on to say that the unworthy Finance Minister of Greece
had resigned his trust, and although his conduct had
been proved to have been base in the extreme, yet they
were told by this Committee of the Chamber of France
that they gave their entire confidence to such a
Minister. He (Lord J. Manners) had no wish whatever
in lei inging forward this motion, to cast any imputation on
the diplomacy of this country, or to ask the Noble
Lord (Palmerston) to take any hasty course to-
wards France, or towards the Government of King
Otho. He was willing to leave the whole matter in his
hands—to his own discretion. He did not ask him to
make any threats or menaces towards Greece, to obtain
the payment of the loan which England had advanced ;
but what he asked the House to do was this—to give an
expression of opinion, on the determination to which
the Chamber of France had come, to support our
Minister in whatever part of the world he might have
to act on the part of his country ; and to act with pre-
deuce and with due regard to the liberties of the people
of Greece. He asked the House to express an opinion
favourable to the independence of the people of that
unhappy country.
Lord PALMERSTON said, it was necessary for him
to state, in the first place, that he had no objection to
the production of the papers for which the Noble Lord
had moved. He had no wish to make an address,
which might interfere with the business which was
more properly the business of the evening ;
but at
the proper time he should feel happy
to
enter more frilly into the merits of the
whole question at issue. With regard to the general
view the Noble Lord had taken of the affairs of Greece,
he must say that he, in a great degree, concurred with
him. The House well knew that the independence of
Greece was achieved by the interposition of England
and of France and Russia—an interposition which was
exercised after a struggle of five or six years between
the Greek nation and the Turkish Government—an in-
terposition wrung from the Government of that country,
and with the approbation, not only of this country, but
of almost the whole of the civilised world. The object
thatin s to
ppol as e a
ftuoharet woanhe itendeared
n it
tnsot emorfpa ontskhi
iet
liiiordnfboytroeancientplace
srecollections—by
aby positionthessehe was
mueta,
ns
at entitledthe t o
saraoecupy ; to put that people in
independence,e
etiommeetrt, increashappiness,e
which
thtemrgphrtosbpyeriy
and civilization ; for that end the
Powers concerned that a constitutional monarchy would
prove favourable to internal tranquillity, and that it
would at the same time promote the industry and in-
crease the wealth of the country; but he was obliged to
confess that heretofore the benevolent intentions which
influenced the three Powers had not been accomplished.
for it was perfectly true that the internal condition of
Greece was far from that which its well wishers would like
to see; it was also, he was afraid, true that the existing
Government of Greece was carried on upon a principle
of peculation, and by those who one would have thought
would have been the last to have acted in such a manner,
and that corruption existed amongst those who ought
to have been the representatives and guardians of po-
pular rights.—(Bear, hear.) It was too true, also, that
acts of great atrocity were, From time to time, committed
by persons in the employment of the Government—
(Hear)—that violence, terrible in its character, had been
exercised in a manner which he would not shock the
feelings of the House by explaining. Terrible punish-
ments had been from time to time inflicted upon unof-
fending persons, for the purpose of compelling them to
make disclosures of the places where criminals had taken
refuge, or where conscripts, who had fled from the ranks
had concealed themselves—extorting confessions such as
these from innocent persons.—(Hear, hear.) He la-
mented to say that this frightful punishment was in-
flicted upon an lonian, who, being a stranger,
was entitled to protection and succour. The statement
of the Noble Lord with respect to the Minister of
Finance was perfectly true, that the revenue was em-
bezzled in its progress to the Exchequer. and what was
expended was misapplied in its application, and in a
way wholly adverse to the public service ; and it was
stated cpei.ly in Parliament by the Minister of Finance
that the greater part of the revenue of Greece was de-
rived from contributions in kind—of grain, for instance,
and that in one district in which the average quarters
of grain to which the Government were entitled was
180,000 kilos., out of this no more than 8,000
kilos. were sold—(Hear, hear)—as the remainder
were embezzled by the parties intrusted with
their collection and sale. It was also proved that
the documents with respect to the finances, which had
been laid before Parliament, professing to set forth the
amount of revenue received had been falsified, and it
was charged, and he (Lord Palmerston) believed it was
admitted that that falsification took place for the pur-
pose of concealing the amount of the revenue actually
received, because it was said if the whole amount was
publicly acknowledged, it would have been evident that
there was a large sum of money over the expenditure,
and that the surplus would have been claimed by the
three powers who had granted the loan, whereas
by a false document they would be enabled to
keep the money in the country, although the
Britieh Government in connexion with the
Governments of France and Russia guaranteed the inde•
pendence of the mixed States, yet he did not hold that
that guarantee gave to any one or more of the guaran-
teeing parties any right to interfere in the internal
administration of the affairs of Greece beyond the point
of requiring that the treaty by which Greece bound
herself to pay the loan should be faithfully observed.
But, however they might deplore the mode in which the
affairs of Greece were administered—however much
they might lament the lot of a free people whom they