The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-26 00:00:00

tbouglit the adoption of the rating test as lii principle most
unexceptionable—with regard to the amount, that was merely
a question of detail. His own opinion was that asl franc
chise would not add to the present number of registered
vo.e-s irt Limerick, and he bad a lett I- from the Chairman
of the Board of 'Guardians of the Limerick Union, which
confirmed that opinion. With regard to the question of the
constituency as competed to that of England—the dis-
parity was so great that he thought something must be
done for Ite'and. With regard t 3 the observations of the
lion. and Learned Member ft r Bandon on the conduct of
the Catholic clr rgy—he did not think it desirable that such
a at de of things should exist as should call upon de clergy
if any religion to enter the a ena of politics, and be was
convinced it was not from their own choice, but from ne-
ces,i y, ;that the Roman Catholic clergy interfere with
elections. No body of men could he more assideous
in their duties than the Catholic clergy of Ireland, and
Cley were most disinterested in so doing, as they depended
solely on the pittance granted to them by their flocks ;
aid should a hostile army ever appear on the shores of
Ireland, no persons would be found more willing or ener-
getic in repelling au, h attacks than the Roman Catholic
,clergy of Iril Ind —(Heap, hear, from Sir R. Peel, and
loud chrers.) As a eroof of that, be would appeal to the
conduct of the Roman Catholic clergy in Canada, who,
throughout the late troubles, had exe.tcd themselves to
p event their flocks joining the late insurrection.—
( Cheers. ) With regard to the Bill of the Noble Secre-
tary for Ireland, it had diffused general satisfaction
throughout the country. But he thought if it should be
divested of its provision fur settling the franchise, it would
be divested of one of its most valuable portions. Be-
lieving that the measure would be beneficial to Ireland, he
should most cordially support the second reading of the
B11._( Cheers. )
Mr. SHAW gathered from the speech of the Hon.
Gentleman who had just sat down, and from that of all
those who had preceded him, that there was now scarcely
on either side of the House any Gentleman who was not
prfectly aware t':at the question they were discussing was
a question on the principle of the franchise, and not of the
method of registration. Let it be granted that it was, as
his Noble Friend had described it, a postscript to the latter,
yet still it was like the postscript to a lady's letter, which
contained the gist of the correspondence. Whether it
was to be considered as a preface or a text, as bad been al-
lowed by the Noble author of the Bill, no Gentleman in
that House could be unaware that the question they were
discussing on the second reading of that Bi I was the ques-
tion of the franchise, and not of the registration of voters in
Ireland—it was whether they should substitute a 61. occu-
pancy franchise in Ireland for the present 101 profit trait-
eldse in counties, and for the 10/. occupancy franchise in
twins. The argument was admitted to he that by the
Right. lion. Gentleman the Secretary at Wet in his
speed:, and .ti 1. more was it admitted by two Right Hon.
and Learned Gentlemen who had spoken on the other
side—he meant the Right Hon. and Learned Attorney -
Geeeral for Ireland and the Right Hon. and Letrned
Vice President of the Board of Trade—by the entire
absence of all refe-ence to it in their speeches.—( Hear )
Ho believe I that Hon. Gentleman opposite thought it
much wiser to entangle English gentlemen in the details of
the Bill of his Noble Friend, is ilia 'was not then before
the House, than to bring their minds to the real question,
which was wh tiler thee were prepared to depart from the
Reform Bill.—( Hear.) If they gushed to test the sincerity
i.f the desire c f Ministers to amend the Irish Registration
law, they had only to look at the history of their legislation
fJr the last few years. In 1835, and at other peri ids
since, the Secretary for Ireland and the Law Officers
of the Crown in that country had brought forward mea-
sures on the subject which they had introduced reluctantly,
and ca-ri:d on sturdy. They bad ultimat:ly abandoned
them all, although, instead of being opposed ou his
(Mr. Sbass's) side of the House, they were sti-
mulated is their drills by Honourable Members
wound him. At length his Noble Friend, the Memb. r
for North Lancashire, determined th it the admitted evils
of' the present system should no longer continue. He had ac-
cordingly brought forward the measure which had since caused
such excitement within and out of the House—a measure, how-
ever, which he (Mr. Shaw) sincerely believed deserved the
character which the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary at
War had given of that introduced by the Noble Lord opposite,
namely, that it would admit good voters and shut out bad ones;
while, on the other hand, the Bill of the Noble Lord the Secre-
tary for Ireland would only tend to put bad voters on the re-
gistry, and keep them there._( Hear, hear.) The measure of
his Noble Friend had been met by much personal abuse. But
he should say by very little argument directed against
the provisions of the Bill. How had it been met by
the Irish party ? Last year the Noble Lord the Se-
cretary fur Ireland, had introduced a measure very
appropriately called by a leading Liberal journal in Dublin,
and by way of compliment, too, " an embarrassing Bill." The
Noble Lord now said, that his Bill was bold and open, and
manly. He (Mr. Shaw), admitting that the Bill sv.-s bold—
it was even reckless as regarded its real object. but he should
say it was a covert measure, and that it was brought forward
under false pretences as regarded the purposes it professed to
have in view.—( Hear, hear.) He had heard the proposal of
the Noble Lord, when he asked for leave- to introduce the
measure with astonishment and alarm. It was not that the
Noble Lord was over-squeamish in party. pelitic3, or that he
did not consider the Noble Lord a promising disciple of the
Movement. But still he did not think that the Noble Lord
coull have been induced after his own profession, to have lent
h mself to a project which would unsettle the mea.ures of 1t329
and 1832. He believed that the measure was fraught
with mischief to Irel.vd, and that it_ would de-
stroy the hopes of the "'permanent prosperity and
peace of that country. The peculiar position of Ireland, in
connection with the Bill, had already been touched on, but
he wished to add a few words on that subject. There was no
Hon. Gentleman, he apprehended, would deny that the great
source of the evils of Ireland was to be found in the subdivision
of laud, and the imperfect state of agriculture there. the
Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Vice-President of
Trade, had said last night that it was the efforts of the Irish
landlords which abolished the forty-shilling freeholders. He
believed that the Right Hon. Gentleman was altogether mis-
taken in that opinion. It said, he remembered, that Committees
of that House were held in 1825, before which the Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin, together with Mr. Blake, and many
other gentlemen of the same party, were examined ; and those
Hon. Gentlemen were the principal witnesses for the expediency
of abolishing the 40s. freeholders. Mr. Blake went so far as to
say that he considered their abolition and the establishment of
a higher franchise to be essential to the peace and prosperity of
Ireland, as it would tend to a better division of land, and to
the establishment of a substantial yeomanry, and still more
because it would tend to give its due weight to property, in con-
stituting the basis of political power in Ireland. A Report of
the Railway Commissioners had been published in 15,32, and
the late Mr. Drummond statal in his evidence before
them, that, in hisopinion, the division of land into small farms,
and their subdivision again into smaller portions, was the prin-
cipal cause of the present impoverished condition of Ireland.
He stated that the landlords had two motives for adopting the
system ; first, the desire to swell the amount of the rent-rolls,
and next, the wish to possess themselves of political power and
influence at elections. Mr. C. Lewis spoke also of the
effect of the 40s. freeholders in this respect, and all the wit-
nesses agreed that from the abolition of the 40s. freeholders
the condition of the country had improved. They said that if
that system continued, it would have reduced the tenants to the
lowest state of degradation. Mr. Nicholls said that the Poor-
laws, if established, might not at first work well; but they would,
he thought, help to aid the country in getting overits present
state of transition. He said he meant by that state of transi-
tion the period which elapsed between the system of small
holdings and the subdivision of lands Which now prevailed in
Ireland, to the better practice of large farms and more scien-
tific husbandry. That period, he said, was always attended
with difficulties and struggles, but he added that the Legislature
helped as much as possible to shorten its duration.
He (Mr. Shaw) would try the Bill of the Noble Lord the Se-
cretary for Ireland by that test, that landlords of Ireland
were now lending themselves to shorten the duration of that
state of transition described by Mr. Nicholls. It was but a
few days ago that a meeting was held in Dublin composed of
gentlemen of all parties for the purpose of forming an Agri-
cultural Association, and with the view to introduce an im.

proved state of husbandry into Ireland. He was sorry the
Hon. Member for Liikeard was not then in his place, for he
thought the observations of that Hon. Member in his speech
of last night in regard to the Irish landlords were most unjust,
most uncalled for, and unfounded. He admitted that the
Irish gentry did not in general possess the wealth of
the gentry of this country, but they were compara-
tively poor, and more thinly scattered over the coun-
try. But he must say, that as a body there did not
exist anywhere a class of men more benevolent, more charitable,
and more indulgent in every way to their tenants, and to the
poor of their neighbourhood, or at the same time more anxious
to promote their comfort by every means in their power than
the landlords of Ireland. But was one of the evils which

Irelertd had to complain of, that gentlemen, like the Hon.
Member for Liskeard, talked of that country in respect to
matters of which they were profoundly ignorant. The Hon.
Gentlemen said that there were two parties in Ireland—that
all were either Orangemen or Radicals. In that opinion the
Hon. Gentleman was entirely. mistaken. He (Mr. Shaw) be-
-li:eyed there was a large class in that country composed of men
of all politir•,s and of all religions, who were sincerely anxious
for peace, and were desirous of co-opera►ing for the improve-
ment of the country, if they we e left free ft om agitation and from
legislative experiments such a. the Bill then before the House.
The lion. Member for Liskeard must have derived his views

'coin his new instructor the Hon. and Learned Member for

Dublin.

That Hon. and Learned Gentleman had said the

other day that Mr. Blacker went the circuit wearing an Orange
badge : there( was not, however, a word of truth in the state-
ment. Mr. Blacker had given it his most positive denial,
stating that it was contrary to all the opinions and practice of
his life.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Member,
however, had made no apology, and had expressed no regret at
the error into which he had fallen. The statement had nerved

his toryose for the moment, and there was afterwards no de-
nial of it.--( Hear, hear.) The ideas of some Hon. Members
with regard to impend were completely one-sided. He would
tell the Hon. Member fur Liskeard that the Irish landlords

were as honourable a class ss any •in this country, and the
Honourable Gentleman should have been more cautious in

his statements respecting them.--(Hear, hear, hear.
He would not deny that the excitement, the political excite-
ment, of the last few years, had caused the want of leases in
IrelancL The introduction of the New Poor-law into Ireland

had been a vent experiment, and all these things were matters
for the consideration of the landlords, and operated upon them
and prevented leasing. But supposing that was not the case,
did the Bill of the Noble Lord apply any remedy? What new
impression, he would ask, had come over the Government since

832, or over the Noble Lord ? In the debate of 1839, Mr.

O'Connell, in introducing the measure, stated, that what he
propo•ed was to reduce the franchise to 5/. Now, what did
the Noble Lord say to that? Why, he refused even leave to
the Hon. Gentleman to lay the Bill on the table. He. said he
could not but think if the motion was assented to, it would

be in direct contravention of the settlement that accompanied

. .
the Emancipation Act in 1829, and the settlement made by the
Reform Act in 1832. And the Noble Lord having expressed
these sentiments in 1839, and repeated them again in 1840, he
introduced the Bill now before the Howe, sihich contained
the very provisions he bad so much deprecated. Much had
been said on the question of population. Now, he was free
to admit that population ought to be fairly represented, and
he thought, looking at the population in Ireland, that. it was
fairly represented. If he thought the present Bill would
prove a blessing instead of a curse to Ireland. he would give
it his support ; but the mass of the freeholders that would be
introduced by the present Bill would be worse than the 40s.
freeholders. The Bill of the Noble Lord, in his opinion,
would be found to be insufficient for the purposes for which it
was intended ; its provisions were simple enough, but it pro-
vided an insufficient test. He was persuaded that no Act cf
Parliament could curo the defect ; differences must continue
to arise, and to whom could they be referred, if not to the
Judges? Upon what ground did the Noble Lord change the
opinion which he had expressed in 18.,9 ? He (Mr. :t•haw)
contended that ,at that f1),.r., a ;he retaeseuta
Lion of Ireland a preponclorail. c iu fa‘oar Of population over
property.—(Hear, hear.) lie entertained great respect for
many of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, the representa-