The Sun.
London, England, 1840-01-30 00:00:00

Hon. Baronet the Member for Pembroke, were Members, and I
will leave it to them to define what agitation is. I will leave it to
them to say to what extent a Government ought to agitate.—(Hear,
hear.) What is it that the Right Hon. Baronet has stated ? Why
ice said that he agitated because he liked the Reform Bill.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) That lie went just upon the• very eerge, of the
law, and no farther. Now the first question with me is,
are the principles which the Right Honourable Gentleman
agitated right, and proper--no one can doubt that they are.
The Right Hon. Baronet admits agitation to be the proper mode of
carrying through important measures.—(Hear, hear.) When the
Right Hon. Baronet comes forward and charges the present Go-
vern:vent with agitation, and directs his charge against no Member
of the Government more than myself, I really think that he may be
justly charged with some little want of generosity. My interest in
this case is small compared with his, because I was not interested in
the question till after the Reform Bill was passed, and I was not
one of those Ministers who told their Sovereign they could serve
him no longer sinless he created a sufficient number of Peers to
carry their measure.—(Cheering.) I was merely one among hun.
dreds in this House and millions in the country that was convinced
that the Reform Bill was a great and salutary measure, and that the
greatest confidence ought to be placed in the Ministry who brought
it forward. Now if there were two individuals at any time who
ought to have looked to the public peace during the agitation of
that measure, it was the Noble Lord who was Secretary for Ireland
and the Right Hon.' Baronet was then at the head of
the Admiralty. The greatest confiderce was placed in
them by the Members of the present Government,
and it was rather extraordinary that they should now be taxed
with the confidence that they then refused to those Gentlemen.
—(Hear, hear.) If the agitation, therefore, of the Reform Bill
was the cause of Chartism, then must the Noble Lord and the
Right Hon. Baronet plead guilty to that charge --(Hear, hear.) If
men were to be disqualified from holding place in the councils of
the Sovereign because they had exerted themselves in carrying the
Reform Bill, and because they had employed means within the
verge of the law for that purpose, than no men in this empire lay
under an equal disqualification for office than the Right Hon. Baro-
net and the Noble Lord, the Member for North Lancashire.—
(Hear, hear.) Let those two Gentlemen vindicate themselves.
The Right Hon. Baronet has already spoken, but there remains
the Noble Lord, who is perfectly competent to defend himself,
and, if he does not, there still remains the Right Hon. Baronet, the
Member for Tamworth. But if I thought that that Noble Lord
and the Right Hon. Baronet would admit of my defence, I would
offer some considerations in extenuation of their conduct.—
(Laughter.) I would say you condemn agitation—do you
mean that abuses should never be removed.—(Hear, hear.) Is it
possible that any great and deeply rooted abuse can be removed
until the public feeling is found to be against it? Is it possible
that the public feeling can be roused against abuse without argu.
meats and statements by speeches, or by writing; and what else, I
would ask, is agitation ?—( Hear, hear.) I deny the doctrine that
I heard over and over again to.day and last night, that a Govern-
ment who countenanced insurrection precluded itself from punish.
ing insurrection.—( Hear, hear.) Insurrection is, no doubt, one of
the greatest crimes known to the law—but there were certain de-
grees of it. I hold agitation to be necessary to the existence of
free government.—(Hear, hear.) They might, if they chose, adopt
the principle of Bishop Horsley, that the people had nothing to do
with the law but to obey it. That might be all very well ; but
they must recollect that they did not live in Russia, and that, in

this country, the popular voice was allowed to have effect—(Hear,
hear)—and it is childish to say that the people were to have a voice
in the law, and that those were agitators who gave them advice
as to what they ought to do. In saying this, I am defending
both parties; for I would ask, has there been no agitation against
the Catholic claims? Has there been no agitation with respect to
the Poor-law and Agitation measures ?—(Hear, hear.) Has

there been no agitation against Catholic Privy Councillors s—
(Great cheering.) But, to pass to measures in which all are
agreed. Can we not make out a long list of measures, the passing
of which have added to the glory and renown of this great country,
which never would have been passed but for agitation ? What
abolished slavery ? Agitation.—(Great cheering.) What ame-
liorated our prison discipline, and mitigated our criminal law?
Agitation.--(Great cheering.) Ido not mean to say that agitation
may not be abused, so might the freedom of speech in that House,
and the freedom of the Press. But what was agitation but the
mode in which the people dtbated their rights ?—(Great cheering.)
I know that agitation may be carried to too great an extent—l
know that agitators may make use of language that is highly im-
proper and inflammatory ; but I deny that such has been the
agitation of the present Government or the Government of Lord
Grey. Bad men might pervert the language of others to the worst
of purposes, and that which to an ingenuous man would convey no.
thing but the best feelings might be perverted and twisted by the
mischievous man to the worst of purposes. Even the words of
the Right Hon, Baronet himself had been perverted by bad men
for the purpose of deluding the multitude.—(Hear, hear.) I ad_
vest to a speech made by the Right Hon. Baronet, in 1830, on the
subject of the emoluments to be divided among the Privy Council.
I admit most freely that the Right Hon. Baronet said nothing
that was not strictly within the line of his duty ; but then 1
say that it is impossible for any one so to guard his
expressions as to prevent them being twisted to bad purposes I
do not blame the Right Hon. Baronet for this, but I think it ought
to be a warning to him to pause before he brings such charges as
he has done against her Majesty's present Ministry. Now to omit
very many topics which I should have wished to address the House
upon, but for the late hour of the night, I will hasten to the real
point in this case. We must consider this question not merely as
a positive, but as a comparative question. The question is, whether
thelHouse will be of opinion that a better Government could be
formed than the one that at present exists. All Governments areim.
perfect ; but some Government there must be, and if abetter could
be found than the present, it would be the duty of every Member in
that House to support it. I take it to be clear, that in the event
of the resignation of the present Ministers, an Administration
must be formed, of which the first place would be tilled by the
Wielit Hon. Baronet opposite, the Member for Tamworth. To-
wards that Hon. Baronet, and the gentlemen who would be then
associated with trim, I entertain nothing but kind and respectful
feelings. lam far from being one of those who can see merit in
no party but my own. I think that the Right Hon. Baronet is an
honour to any situation that he may fill ; and when I have said
this, I am sure he will be too just to find fault with those remarks
which, in my public duty, I feel compelled to make with respect to him.
It has been, I will not say the fault of the Right Hen, Baronet,
but Iris misfortune, to be at the head of a party who have had less
sympathy with him than with any other individual. I speak of
that which is matter of history. The Right Hon. Baronet declared
himself favourable to those measures of free trade which made Mr.
Huskisson odious to the community, and in that declaration he
met with no sympathy froth his party. The Right Hon. Baronet
also gave every facility to the removal of the disabilities of the
Protestant Dissenters, and in that he met with no sympathy from
his party. The Right Hon. Baronet brought in a Bill for the relief
of the Roman Catholics, and there the sympathy of his party
equally deserted him. The Right Hon. Baronet had declared
himself favourable to the principles of the Poor-law Bill,
yet in every Whig Bastile he: met with no sympathy.
Even upon the question of privilege, and I will say that the course
taken by the Right Hon. Baronet upon that question, ought to
render his name honourable in this House to the end of time,
still, Sir, upon that question the Right Hon. Baronet is at variance
with the great body of his supporters. I might say something
more, I might say that where he and the great body of his sup-
porters did agree lie very seldom arrived at the conclusion,
which both had done, by the same system of reasoning
by which they had arrived at it. The Right Honourable
Baronet considered great questions as mere questions of expediency
while they upon the other side considered them mere questions of
bigotry. Not one speech had the Right Hon. Baronet made upon
any of the great measures:introduced by Lord Melbourne's Govern.
ment that would ever prevent him from producing the very same
measure with some very slight variations —(Cheers.) Sir, I
listened with pleasure, as 1 always do, to the speeches of the Right
Hon. Gentleman, but I listened with particular pleasure to the
speech of the Right lion. Baronet of last year on the subject of
education, and I could not but be amused when he at.
tempted to give the reasons which induced him
to support a system— to take a course that was dic-
tated by bigotry alone. He convinced me of nothing but
this, that he thought exactly as I did with respect to the cry—
the insane cry—with respect to the Douay Version and the Nor.
mat Schools. From the position which the Right Hon. Baronet
now holds it does not appear to me that it is possible for him to
conduct the administration of affairs in this country with honour
to himself or satisfaction to the party which he now leads. I will
not say that I think that he would act the part of tyrant—that
he would give up the dominion of this country to that party
which formed a large portion of his forces, who were so intensely
anxious for the repeal of the Emancipation Bill. —(Cheers.) What
I am afraid of is, that lie would try so to trim with his own party
—that he would try to keep sueli terms with that portion of them,
as must naturally give offence to a large portion of the empire. His
Administration wou'd be discredited, and it would fall from causes
purely internal.—(Loud cheers.) It is not mere conjecture, Sir,
for we have seen the same piece performed on the same scene, and
by very nearly the same actors. In 1827 the Right Hon. Baronet
was at the head of a powerful Opposition ; lie had then a strong mi.
nority to support him in this House, while his views were sup-
ported by a large majority in the other House. He was the idol
of the Church and of the Tory Gently. The Ministry of the day
was distracted within, and it was most closely pressed from with-
out ; its Members were called Papists, Socinians, and all manner of
abuse was heaped upon them. That Ministry fell, and the Right
Hon. Baronet rose to the principal place in that House. He was
then freed from all those difficulties which pressed upon him, Mr.
Canning was no more—the most accomplished states-
man of the nineteenth century had been laid at rest in
Westminster Abbey. Tire Right Hon. Gentleman was seated on
the Treasury Bench, and those who had set him there hailed him
with acclamation, hoping that all their wishes were now to be ac-
complished. He was raised to power by prejudices and passions,
for which he had no regard—his followers were bigots—lie was a
statesman.—(Loud cheers.) IJe was calmly balancing convenience
against inconvenience, while they Were ready to prefer penal laws,
premunire in preference to giving away any part of their prejudices.
Agitation in Ireland, which had slumbered, became more formidable
than ever—the Catholic Association became so formidable as to
frighteu the Government. The Pcnenden Heath meeting on one
side of the Channel, and the election of the lion. and Learned
Member for Dublin for the county of Clare, announced that a crisis
had arrived when the Government must either take one part or the
other. A plaits and simple issue presented itself to the mind of
the Right Hon. Baronet, whether he would disgust his own party
or ruin his country.—(Cheers.) He chose the good part, he per-
formed a painful, and in some sense, a humiliating but
most honourable part, and proposed the great measure of
iephrelvjuadsircaeisseanid
bpassions.
Catholic Emancipation. Among the followers of the Right Hon.
d eßaronetncytheren aall
thingsw e r were some
was g
owhood. thought
Tthheeee :vies along
ryoestcghhs
eowa
othersmi tgehe
changed
reproachhi
eol
bn
Universitywu,
tte rtit
cal
leaningr: that
e ntueggh xii
great
by matters of personal interest—
n
a out the
of " Question
Hight Hon. Baronet's ears—(
of ." and "Order!")
all whole Clergy of
upon him. He was counsellcal to follow tire example of the deserted
is
for
rst out. The
tE)o:leyr yo fo
hn
mustfolio remembery ers
eld
tbhyec tempesttresir wwnh
wherech
he
set ol rmydhbacdcbeen
Dido, and he was likened unto Judas Iscariot ; in the University
the Established Church hurried in from parts of England, in
Now, Sir, what I want to know is,
order to vote against the in in whose presence a few weeks previ.
ransackedcckwedas c
adored ran
sh
the friends of the Church and
it fell, attacked by the whole body of .
.oruhsel ym
,wouldtraystry
draggedset
otnh
support on the Whigs, and sometimes on the Tories, but at length
what reason the Right Hon. Baronet has to believe that from
an Administration formed by him from the same materials he
the Tory gentry of England.
can anticipate better things. The Right Hon. Baronet is still
feo rwal :Tel teller tells
the same —he is still the statesman, moderate in his opinions, calm
in his temper, free from prejudice and passion ; but what are his
followers ? (Cheers.) I will not say that tire party which follows
the Right Hon. Baronet is the same ; it has undergone a change.
His followers have become more fierce and snore intolerable. I
judge by their proceedings at public meetings, and tire lan.
' gunge uttered in their pulpits--(Loud and continued cheers)
—pulpits which every week are ringing with envenomed
slander which would disgrace a hustings.—(Loud cheers.) A
change has come over tire spirit of the party ; I sincerely trust
not over a majority of it. The Tory party used to boast of being
possessed of all the loyalty in the country. To exemplify it, I will
only quote one single verse—the language of a great Tory poet—
" Loyalty is still the same,
Whether it won or lost the game ;
True as die dial to the sun,
Although it is trot shone upon."
We have lived to see very different tinies.—(Loud cheering.) We
have lived to see a party made up of the wors, parts of the
Cavalier, joined with the very worst parts of the
Roundhead.—(Hear, hear.) We have lived to see Toryism
take the same line as in former times—when, because it was not
suffered to grind the people after the example of Strafford, abused
the Queen after the manner of Hume.—(Loud cheers.) Sir, it is
my firm belief that the largest portion of the party in the country,
supporting the Hon. Gentleman at the present moment, ardently
desire the repeal of the Emancipation Act.—(Cries of " Oh, oh,
In what other way, then, are we to understand—in what way can
we possibly explain, the great outcry which has been raised against
the appointment of three Popish Councillors P (Hear, hear.)
Is the Emancipation Act to be maintained ? If so, then