The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-06 00:00:00

WAR IN SYRIA.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL then rose and addressed
the House as follows :—Sir, in rising to ask the
House to agree to a vote of thanks to Sir Robert
Stopford, Sir Charles Napier, Sir Charles Smith,
and the officers and men who had been engaged in the
operations which have been recently carried on on the
coast of Syria, I am quite sure that the House will
give its cordial concurrence to this motion as a tribute
which is justly due to the gallantry of the gallant officers
and men who have been engaged in those operations.—
(Cheers) The success of those operations de-
pended in a great degree upon the promptitude
with which they were carried into effect, and how-
ever various the opinions may be as to the general
policy which had rendered those operations necessary
—whether that policy was right, or whether it was
wrong—whether or not. it was expedient to un-
dertake such operations—whether the policy of the
Government be approved of or not—l am quite
sure that all must agree in opinion that no-
thing could exceed the skill and judgment displayed
by those who had to carry into effect the orders of her
Majesty,issued in consequence of that policy.—(Cheers.)
Sr Robert S.opford had at his commend, it is true, a
large fleet in the Mcditteranean, but at the same
time he had to tyke into his consideration the
state of Europe at that time, which was so
alarming that at one period there' were sm.:pus
aperesen.ions of the peace of Europe being
disturbed. Sir Robert Stopford must also have
bet n naturally anxious that in the operations which he
was about to undertake the reputation of the navy
should be sustained—(Cheers)—and also to consider
what might bo the ultimate events arising out of
the operations he was about to undertake. It wes
obvious to him, and I think it must be obvious
to the House, that it would not be sufficient that he
should undertake those opermiens, considering that he
had no enemy to deal with but the Paella of E t.ypt, and
a chance or contingeecy that eorne cf the great
European Powersmight send their as,istance to the Pacha
of E,,zypt ; and he was oli!iged, therefore, to adopt any
resoutecs he coud comtnand in order to off .ct the
(Apia he had in vier. 1 say this because I consider
that the officer in command, whatever may be the
I question with respect to the gallantry and skill
displayed in naval and military operations the
officer in command has more under his direction
than eh her military or naval operations. He has, besides
the duty of the charge, not only to consider those intim-
! :Nate operations, but it is his bounden duty to consider
the position of the Gevsrnment and the country, and to
take into account malty c•ms;derations partly military,
partly naval, and partly political.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
I have said thus much as appl*g to Sir Robert
Stopford, and the part which I em now to state
applies also to Sic Robert S:opford, but equally
to every person engaged. Yoe Treaty in cot:-
Szquonce of which these operations were taken,
was signed on the 15th of July. Orders were
given by wide!) part of these operations were
taken before tie Conventi)n was signed, since then or-
ders had been given by Sir Charles Napier, and about
the 10,h of September, the fleet on the coast of Syria,
bei:tg aware that Mchcmet A!i held rejected al the
propositions, commence d the operations against the for-
tresses of Mehemet Ali which have finalle led to his
submission. Tice first operetion against. Mehemet. Ali
was conducted net against life or property, but with a
slew of s&.aluir a the reilatary force acting by the directions
of Mehemet A!i, and therefore consich-red as an hosti'c
oree. The consequence of those operations was the entire
destruction of the military force of Mehemet Ali. An-
other operation was immediately undertaken under the
direction of Sir Robert Stopford, but under the cont•
mand of Si;' Charles Napier. Tito troops which were
landed amounted to about 1,500. The position of
troops was not the position which, in ordi-
nary mi•itary operations, would be considered either
safe or the basis of any future successful operations, but
it was the position which Commodore Napier had con-
c7ivedi and rightly conceived, would best effect the ob-
ject to be accomplished. conceive that the judg-
ment displayed by Sir Charles Napier, as well as the
boldness of conception, are very remarkable features in
considering the se operations. The object was not to land a
great army in Ss rip, which was to be opposed to the army
of Mehemet Ali. The Oiled was with a small force—
and it was only a small torte—of Turks, aided by a
few hundred Marines, to encourage the innabitants, who
were disposed to do so, to revolt against Mehemet Ali.
I concur with this view ; nothing could be better
judged, and, as it turned out, nothing could he more
successful than the operations which were then un-
dertaken. It must be recollected that for some
years the forces under Mehemet Ali were organised
with great judgment and skill ; that the military farce
was supposed to be very considerable ; that some rec-
koned it at 100,030 men and some at 120,000 ; and
that those who professed to have the most accurate in-
formation did not fix it at less than 65,000, not Ine
eluding the irregular forces who 'assisted the army of
Ibrahim Pacha, and were under his command. It
was against such an army that this small force was
opposed. Sir, it was soon shown that Commo-
dore Napier and those who acted with him had
not miscalculated the resistance which would be
made by Ibrahim Paella. Sir Robert Stopford, in
order to gain possession of Beyrout, directed certain
operations against the Egyptian force in that town, and
directed Commodore Napier and General Joehmus to
aid him in those operations. That movement. was un-
dertaken, but before it could be entirely effected it was
found that a very considerable part of the Egyptian army
was on the heights before this small force of Turks, Ma-
rines, and Artillery, and that Ibrahim Pacha was present.
It was necessary to take an immediate resolution--
that immediate resolution was taken by the gallantry of
British sailors and British soldiers. That immediate
resolution was to attack Beyrout. The attack was
made, and it was entirely successful. Ibrahim Pacha
eft the field, and the forces under Ibrahim Paella, near
Beyrout, immediately retreated. The consequence was
that several thousands of the Egyptians surrendered to
the forces under the command of Commodore Napier
and General Jochmus, while ethers surrendered in other
parts. Soon after this an attack was made upon Sidon,
where likewise the success was very signal. The Arch-
duke commandieg an .Austrian frigate was one of those
who distinguished themselves on that occasion,
and the Egyptian forces not being permitted, in conse-
quence of the direction of the fire of the ships, to re-
treat to the mountains, were obliged to surrender.
The operations, however, of most importance took place
at Acre—a place rendered memorable by the prowess
and skill of Sir Sydney Smith—( Hear, hear)—in the
assistance he gave in its defence. It has fallen to
us in the course of the last year to ac•
coinplish its surrender, and the same service
which displayed so much skill and bravery in
its defence has been the means of capturing it.—
(Hear, hear.) Instructions left this country about the
7th of October, to attempt the reduction of the .fort
Of Acre. They were orders, as may be supposed,
which left it to the discretion of Sir Robert Stopford,
if he should think the enterprise practicable. He
had, however, considered whether he should un-
dertake this enterprise for some days before,
and at the time the orders arrived he was fully
prepared immediately to undertake that-operation. He

received the orders on the 2,9 th of October, and no time s
was lost in at once carrying them into effect. Several
sail of the line were employed in the operations
against Acre. The position in which those shies
were placed by Sir Robert Stepford, displayed the know-
ledge and skill cf a man who, in various parts
of the globe, has always shown his complete knowledge
of the profession to which he belongs, as well as the
most distinguished gallantry and skill. (Cheers.)
That complete knowledge and thorough skill in his
profession enabled him to choose the best position in
which his ships could be placed. The fire which was
opened_ from those ships was most effectual. It
was directed against two sides of the fortress
of Acre. It drove from their guns the
Egyptian troops, who were defending the place, and
after .some hours an explosion of a powder magazine took
i,i-plgneonorneating very great destruction, which induced
t afte'Reyjitian Commander and those under him to give
opralf;ehoughts of any further defence ; so that on the
::evei.nieg of the 3d, or on the morning of the 4th, the
ePlace wits surtendered to the arms of her Majesty.
I have made mention of the co-operation in these ope-
rationg-'of the Austrian ships, and of Admiral Walker
.on-it-needing the line-of-battle ship belonging to the Sul-
tan.• Sir, these, then, are the operations which
*ere conducted under the direction of Sir Robert
.St:opfacti as Admiral, with the naval forces of
'her AlljTitsty, and with Sir Charles Smith as
engitleir under his command, whose assistance
lias 'of the utmost value. Likewise the small
but effective force of the Sultan lent beneficial aid.
These forces, then, have been quite successful ; and what
is the consequence of these operations that were so
successful from the 9th of September to the 4th of
November last? The complete success of tho enter-
prise with which these officers and men were entrusted.
—(Hear, hear.) They have ended in producing the
utmost that could be expected from them, without any
alloy whatever—the complete submission to the
Treaty. I therefore say again, that whatever may
have been the policy in undertaking- this enter-
prise, it is impossible that any naval force could do
more than what has been performed by these men, or
that success could be carried further. They acted,
Sir, ably, zealously, and skilfully.—(Hear, hear.) I
may now remark, that it appears that the skill to which
modern milieus have attained in the various sciences
of seamanship, navigation, gunnery, engineering—
that all these arts are in themselves not sufficient
unleis they are directed by the mind and energies of
an able and skilful commander. Various books have
been written to show how success may be at-
tained in the enforcing of treaties ; but all those
means which civilized Europe have carried to per-
fection—all these, and attempts even with a superiority
of forces, and with time for preparation even with
every financial means at the disposal of a commander
ofsuperior mind, and cncrgy,and skill,have hitherto failed.
Sir, I am convinced that if the operations which took
place at Acre had been reversed, and that an Egyptian
fleet had attacked a British fortress, the result would
have been quite the opposite. The superior energy and
skill of the Commander, and the bravery of his troops,
would have ended in the complete discomfiture of any
force Egyptian opposed to them. But these great issues
. of peace and war are not decided by these merely mate-
rial considerations—they are to be decided by the mo-
ral force, the mental energy, and the superior talent of
the men who belong to a nation distinguished as this is,
and likewise some other nations of Europe, by superior
arts, superior civilisation and enterprise. Sir, I think this
is a consideration not to be lost sight of, because if we
could believe that any barbarian by merely cultivating
the arts of war, and by turning his attention to
having a larger artillery, and• larger number of
ships could compete with any civilized nation, the
result would be roost disastrous. lam persuaded such
is not actually tit- ease—that the character and institu-
miens of a nation must always have their weight,
and that those to whom you are to return
thanks to-night, distinguished as they arc by
their great personal courage, and by the feats they
have achieved, have shown themselves so worthy, be-
cause they belong to a nation in whom these qualities
are elweys found when we have steed of them—a
nation which, by its superior institutions, its free-
dom, and its pre-eminence in the arts, has
been always ready to produce men to defend
the honour and promote the interest of the nation,
whenever the occasion far their services required
it. I shall not add any more, but move the thanks of
this House to Sir Robert Stopford, and the officers and
men engaged in the operations on the coast of Syria.
Lord STANLEY—Sir, I am anxious to have the
honour, in a very few words, of seconding the motion of
the Noble Lord.—( Hear, hear.) This is a subject on
which there can be difference arising from political
questions. We are not celled upon, as the Noble Lard
has well observed, to discuss the political bearings
of the Syrian eitiestion, or to enter upon any question
of the policy which has guided her Majesty's Govern-
ment on this snejset. It is a question extremely em-
barrassieg and dangerous to the peace of Europe, if it
were fully discussed at the present stage of the proceed-
ings. We are called upon to express on the pert
of this House the exultation we feel at the success of
her M ijesty's army, and the gratitude we and the court-
try feel to the skid and intrepidity of the brave men by
whose combined exertions, arid by whose mental and
physical powers these great objects have been attained.
The Nch'e Lord and the Government alone were fully
in 'possession of the amount and nature of the instruee
tions issue;! for the steilance of Admiral Stopferd and
the officers ceder his command. They alone knew how
prompt:), and energetically they had fullilliad the i !-
! structians they had given ; but in the si -uatien in
I which Admiral Stopford especially was placed—wh tt-
! ever instructions were given to hint, and whatever
orders he received from home, such was the critic it
nature of 'the circumstances in which he was pieced—
so many circumstances must occur considerably modi-
fying or even varying the views of the Government at
home as compared with those which the officers
upon the spot were compelled to take—that he was
placed in a position requiring not only activity and in-
creasing care in obeying the orders given, but also prompt
decision and the highest degree of political prudence
in acting for himself in the absence of instructions, or
even under the serious 'responsdelity of modif:.iag or
neglectin the instructions which were given to him.—
(Hear, heat-.) I thsrefore think, Sir, without having
information more than that before the Houle—ediliout
knowing the details known to the Government at
home—that there is no Gentleman on either side—
I believe that there is no man in the country
—who would refuse, upon the general information
e !deli is aceesiible to all, that praise of prudence, corn-
; bined with vigour, activity, and valour which has been
assigned by the Noble Lord opposite as the distin-
guished theme of the applause well-earned, and I am
sure cheerfully paid to Admiral Stopford ; and on this
subject there can be no difference of opinion, still less
can there be any respecting .a tribute of gratitude to
those bravernen—(Loud cheers)--who have acted under
him, and have followed up and .seconded his endeavours,
who have displayed that gallantry and almost reckless
courage which had been always characteristic of our mi-
litary and naval forces, and which alone, when directed
by the highest prudence, can lead to successful results
in operations such as these. A series of operations,
termiaatieg in one of the most brilliant achievements of
modern limes, and which will render the name et Sir C.
Napier illustrious, as having thus signalised British
valour in his unprecedented and successful attack on
the fortress of Acre.—(Cheers.) 1 ought to apologise
to the House for addressing them at all on this sub-
ject—(Cheers)—but I was anxious to state, in the po-
sition I occupy, and in my own name, to give on this
side of the House a proof that on a question of this
kind, whatever may be our political differences—what-
ever may be our internal animosities—whatever ques-
tions occasioning discord may arise on other subjects,
there can be in the mind of the British senate—thereby
faithfully representing the minds of the British people,
whateier our political opinions may be—on a subject of
this kind, but one feeling, and one feeling alone—that of
rejoicing and exultation at every new accession_of glory
to the British arms, and that universal feeling of respect,
admiration, and gratitude which is embodied in this
vote to those brave and gallant men who have so much
contributed to the glory of their country.
Lord FRANCIS EGERTON cordially concurred
in all that had fallen from the Noble Lord in praise of
the great skill and gallantry displayed by the brave men
who had been. engaged in the operations on the coast of
Syria ; but he trusted the Noble Lord and the House
would not think him capable of taking captious objeci
Lions if he should indulge in what might perhaps be con-
sidered as criticisim on one of the expressions which had
fallen from the Noble L',rd relative to the reduction of
Acre. The Noble Lord, he thought, had scarcely done
full justice to the merits of the gallant men engaged in
that important important operation. He had said that
the reduction of that fortress was the consequence of
the accidental explosion which bad taken place in the
fortress. Now he did not consider that any improper
construction could be put on the meaning of what had
fallen from the Noble Lord by persons in that House,
e
v:xftttoh:or
laeZottr‘ thoughtweoinahrtnie'hdongasudtennhl
et:l
edi
s 1
aauti
nrneedodgtkoi expressionscaevoAe,nwatyhri both
hdat
oerobftbiepetseehseurre el
actionvi
nacait
until
caused
observations.
id(eieihgtellaphts
e
Cereand it was not until the vigorous exertions
msrbt.
misunderstood,
tnestsdustut
erhteannhteatdebei
et; elsewhere
the fortress
our ships had been for some time continued,
that the brave men who defescuntesmbheri
(for brave men they most certainly were) were
finally driven from their defences.—(Great cheering.)
He could not refuse himself the gratification of express-
ing his entire concurrence in all that had been said by
the Noble Lord in praise of the gallantry and skill dis-
played by those brave men.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
He would not subject himself to the charge of
exaggiration by comparing
the deeds of those
bravo men to those of the naval heroes of former
times, of Blake, of Howe, and of Nelson ; but he be-
lieved that they were fitting companions for those brave
men, and that the British Navy would always distinguish_
itself whenever called upon, as it had done here-
tofore, equally in the impetuous rush to the attack,

TEE SUN. LONDON, SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 6, 1841.

and in the skill and judgment by which that impetuous
valour was directed.—(Cheers.) But he might be
permitted to observe that during the course of these
operations in the East exploits had been performed
which could not have taken place in the times of Nelson.
The gallant exploit of the landing effected at Djuni
Point by Sir Charles Napier, and en which he con-
sidered the success of the subsequent operations had
mainly depended, had been effected by the power of
steam, without which it would not have been attempted.
The whole success of th^ subsequent operations de-
pended, he believed, upon the success, of Sir Charles
Napier in effecting that landing.—(Cheers.) There
had also been another exploit to which he would al-
lude, which could not have been performed in
the time of Nelson. He had been informed that
a line-of-battle ship had been ordered to batter
down a round tower at Acre, with round-shot alone,
and that the operations for carrying that order into
effect had been executed in such a manner, that the
whole broadside was delivered with a most fearful
accuracy.—(Cheers.) He almost regretted that the
forms usually observed on these occasions prevented the
names of other officers being particularized. He could
not but regret that the names of Sir Thomas Hastings—
(Cheers)—of a gentleman who in politics belonged
to the other side of the House, and who he
considered as one of the best officers in the service, Sis-
John Pechell—(Cheers)---and Sir Howard Douglas
—( Loud cheering),—ha.l not been mentioned.
With regard to what the Noble Lord had said
as to his belief that if the circumstances had
changed, and if this country's operations had been
operations of defence rather than attack, the result
would have been the same ; now he (Lord F. Eger-
ton) thougLt there were circumstances that made that
extremely probable, for one of the officers engaged was
distinguished above all the rest as one of the finest officers
that England had latterly produced. In conclusion he
begged most cordially to support the motion of the No-
ble Lord.

The SPEAKER having put the question from the
Chair,

Mr. HUME rose. He hoped the time would never
come when a difference of political opinion in that House
would induce any Members to withhold their just mecd of
praise and approhaticn to the display of great military
and naval skill. He was as anxious as any man to afford
to the navy and military forces of the country their
just raced of praise, but he regretted that those
forces had been employed in a service so injurious
to the country ; he therefore, though he joined in the
vote, felt bound to condemn the policy that
had been pursued by her Majesty's Ministers ; and
he wished,. before the debate closed, to know
when the papers on this subject would be
laid on the table of the House, in order
that the House might see how far her Majesty's Mi-
nisters were to blame.

Sir lIENRY HARDINGE had no protest to
enter into against her Mejesty's Ministers, or the
policy they had pursued. He thought it would be
imprudent to do so in the absence of the papers. In
hie opinion, the Noble Lord, and those who had
followed him, had acted wisely, ar.d as they ought to
have done, when a vote of thanks was offered to the army
or the navy, by abstaining from any political allusions.
He agcaed with the accurate account given by the
Noble Lord of the operations in Syria, and it was his
firm belief that no men batter deserved the, thanks of
the House than those who were concerned in the ope-
rations in Syria. Whatever might be the difficulties of
any orders which our navy might receive, such were the
resources, such the genius, and such the originality of
that branch of our service, that, whether it:was afloat or
whether it was on shore, they always brought their ef-
forts to a successful result. On the present occasion he
considered that although the navy had not had the same
hard fighting that it had had on former occasions, yet
the skill and the science which they displayed were at-
tributes of their superiority of the greatest importance ;
and he (Sir 'leery Hardinge) hailed their success with
the greatest satisfaction. The Noble Lord, in men-
tioning Admiral Stopford's successes, had stated that
before he received instructions from home he was fully
prepared to carry into effect his own resolution to attack
Acre. Now not only was Admiral Stopford fully pre-
pared, but he had also made up his mind to attack
Acre before he received instructions to that effect.—
(Hear, hear.) He thought it was due to the Gallant
Admiral that that point should be clearly understocid—
that he had made preparations to attack Acre before
the Vesuvius arrived, bearing the instructions of Lord
Palmerston. The Noble Lord, in the course of his
speech had alluded to a very memorable instance in
which our navy had distinguished itself on that very
spot—the defence of Acre under Sir Sydney Smith.
He (Sir H. Hardinge) would not draw a parallel be-
tween the exploits of S'r Sydney Smith and those of
Admiral Stoptord. It was impossible to. institute a
comperison, for the cases were dissimilar in all their
features. On the one occasion Admiral Stopford dc-
strcyed the defences of Acre ; on the other occasion to
which the Noble Lord had referred, and which oc-
curred about forty years ago, Sir Sydney Smith landed
his marines and the crews of his ships; entered into
the breach, and in a aeries of about six days' opera-
tions, having sustained nine, assaults against the French
army—one of the greatest armies of that period—he
effected the safety of the town by repulsing, all the
efforts made against his force. The cases were per-
fectly dissimilar, and therefore he would not make any
invidious comparison. He would take this opportunity
of making a suggestion to the Howe, which he thought
of considerable importance. Sir Sydney Smith had
received the thanks of both Hous.-s of Parliament
for his explo:ts at Acre.. Lord Spencer, he believed, de-
clared, in his place in Parliament, that he had performed
en exploit uarivalled is history. Parliatnent was of
the same opinion ; for, departing from its ordinary usages,
it had passed a vote of thanks to him for his services,
though he was only a captain in the navy, The gal-
lant officer had been dead two or three 3 ears, and he
would take this opportunity of suggesting to the House
the propriety of erecting a monument to him in St.
Paul's. It appeared to him that his exploit at Acre
was of such a memorable character, that the House were
bound in that manner to mark their sense of his services.

Sir DE LACY EVANS made a few remarks, the
greater part of nhich were inaudible in the gallery; hut
we understood him to express his warm approval of the
vote of thanks, and his regret that any remark should
have been mode on this occasion condemnatory of the
policy of the Government.
Sir It. INGLIS said he had felt the greatest delight at
the success with which it had phased Almighty God to
bless ber Msjesty's fored.; he hoped this Christian people
while looking to the instruments would not forget that
it was the hand of God tfirst directed their efforts. He
concurred with the Noble Lord in the terms in which
he had. proposed this vote of thanks, the highest honour
which this House could pay to any of their follow-sub-
jects. But he trusted that the Noble Lord would not
feel that he had discharged his duty to the subjects of
that motion if, high as was the honour proposed, he
limited bis reward to that vote of thanks. It was in
the power of her Majesty's Government to confer a pe-
cuniary reward upon these men, but he trusted that, in-
stead of that, there would be conferred upon the gallant
Commander one of a more enduring character, and
one which had been observed on similar occasicns.
He trusted he had not unnecessarily obtruded these.ob-
servations upon the House.
_ _

passdu
ct orodf withoutit
hNo GoEffSe
gallantrTinßg I
men
es
ncouldwhose
toens
coo tr
exploitsallow
approval the
oe
were t ecn
to
under their consideration. He regretted to find that
there was an Hon. Member of the House who diEred
as to the expediency of such a vote, because it was a
question on which there could be no party or political
feelings whatever. He hoped her Majesty's Govern-
ment would attend to the hint thrown out by the Right
Hon. Baronet near him, of conferring some distinction
on the gallant Commander of the Forces in the Medit-
teranean. There was one officer who in those opera-
tions had met with his death, not by the guns of the
enemy, but by the climate, and whose services had been
such as to merit the insertion of his name in this vote
of thanks. He was an officer of marines, and perhaps
it might be some consolation to his family to find such
honourable mention made of the corps to which he be-
longed.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord concluded with
expressing his cordial concurrence in the motion.
Lord J. RUSSELL wished to say, in reference to
what had fallen from the Noble Lord the Member for
North Lancashire (Lord F. Egerton), that the allu-
sion to the explosion in Acre had only been made in
consequence of its having been so prominently men-
tioned in the despatches of Sir„R Stopford.—( Hear.)
The following Resolutions were then read by the
SHEAKER, amidst vehement cheers from both sides :
That the thanks of this House be given to Admiral
Sir Robert Stopford, for his gallant conduct in the ope-
rations upon the coast of Syria.—(Cheers.)
That similar thanks be given to Sir Charles Napier,
Knight Commander of the Bath.—(Cheers.)
That this House acknowledges, and highly approves,
the services of the Royal Marines.—(Cheers.)
That the thanks of this House be given to Major-
General Sir Charles Frederick Smith, and the officers
of the Royal Artillery, for their gallant conduct in those
operations.—( Cheers.)
That this House acknowledges, and highly approves,
the services of the corps of Sappers and Miners.—
(Cheeers.)
To Rear-Admiral Baron Bandeira and the naval
forces of Austria under his command.
To Admiral Walker, and the forces of his Highness
the Sultan under his command.
Which were severally carried nem. con.
On the motion of Lord JOHN RUSSELL, it was
agreed that the Speaker do communicate the above
resolutions to Admiral Stopford. and to request him to
make known the same to the officers and men under his
command.

COPYRIGHT BILL.
The Order of the Day for the second reading of the
Copyright Bill having been read,
Mr. Sergeant TA LFOURD said, that after the dis-
cussion which the principle of the Bill .had under-
gone in that House, he should . feel himself un-
worthy of the attention which bad been accorded

to him on former oceestoss if he were to oc-
cupy the House for more than a few minutes; and
were it not for some misconceptions that existed as to
i the principle of the Bill he would not have said one
word. One misconception was with respect to that
which formed the main object of the Bill—the exten-
sion of the term during which authors should retain an
interest in the works of their own minds. He supposed
that because the term of 60 years was mentioned, that
therefore those who supported the Bill of necessity in-
sisted on that term being retained in the Bill. He lied
always taken every pains to let it be understood that he
was not by any means wedded to that term, but that a
less term would satisfy him. There were indeed certain
Hon. Members whom ho would not ask to vote for the
second reading of the Bill, but he would ask those who
were ready to support him to follow the project introduced
into the Chamber of Deputies in Paris, for the purpose
of giving a copyright to the extent of 30 years. That
measure was introduced by the Minister of Public
Instruction, with the assertion that he thought
a perpetual copyright was but just, and he
regretted that it was not in his power to propose
that instead of thirty years. He (Sergeant Talfourd)
would ask those Hon. Members who approved of that
measure to vote for the second reading of the Bill ;
end he would ask them whether they would not give
something just on both sides. He thought that the
promoters of this Bill were misunderstood when it was
said that they overlooked the question of expediency
with respect to the publishers and the public. He
(Sergeant Talfourd) did not certainly love that word
expediency as much as certain Hon. Gentlemen on the
other side of the House. He had, with astonishment,
heard it said that their duty to authors was to give
them as little as possible, so that they might play upon
their (the authors') love of fame. When he heard
the creations of the mind compared with the usual lot
of land, he was not able to avoid asking the question,
whether those who occupied no space possessed by
others—whether those who altogether created that
which was to be a system of instruction for the human
mind—whether those individuals were not entitled to
the benefit of their own work ? But he denied that he
had placed the principle of that Bill merely in that
light. He had regard to what was expedient to au-
thors, to publishers, and to the public. As to authors,
it was enough to say, that amongst the petitioners in
favour of that Bill were some of the greatest
authors, and who were entitled, he should say,
to the thanks of that House. (Hear, hear.)
As to publishers, with one or two exceptions, the pub-
lishers were quite satisfied with the provisions of the
Bill. Then with regard to the public, he always con•
tended that in the first place, the public should learn
justice. He contended for that, because it was expe
dient it should be kept in mind in the subject of this
Bill as wi.ll as in matters of law and justice. In the
year 1814. there was a greater extension of copyright
than that he now asked for. The term of copyright,
which was fourteen years, was then extended to 28
years, and precisely the same arguments were then
urged as against the present Bill, that hooks would be-
come dearer, fewer written, fewer published, and fewer
bound. Now, since the year 1814, the books had
greatly increased in number, and diminished in -price,
and, therefore, had he not a strong and unanswerable
proof that extensions of copyright by no means implied
dearness of books ? He had only made these remarks
for the purpose of showing that it was a misunder-
standing to say that he rested the right of this
13.11 merely on the ground of some natural
right, without regard to expediency. He would. only
. submit to the House, in two sentences, two considera-
tions, which seemed to him to prove an absolute neces-
sity for this measure. The first was, that it was only
by this means they could give to authors the power of
preserving the purity of their works, and of securing
them from pretended ebridgements, which would eines-
. culate, or pervert, or pollute them, and give to those,
to whom it would be a labour of lore—their families, and
those who cherished their memories—the means of pro-
. tecting them front such injury. The next consideration
; was, that, as it was too much the tendency of the pre-
, sent day to purchase works of light and airy character,
and of temporary interest, and as such works were
abundantly rewarded by the immediate profit they af-
forded, it became them to encourage that which was
slow in production, high in aim, and lasting in duration,
and not to say that all the profits should be
. given to the labours of a day—( Hear, hear, hear)—
; that those who vindicated their own powers for im-
mortality, as far as it could be judged of by the years
; of life, should not go without their just reward.—( Hear,
hoar.) He would not trouble the House further on a
subject, which he believed, on his part, was quite ex-
hausted. He therefore begged leave to move the second
reading of the Bil.
, I Mr. MACAUL AY said it was in some sense with
pleasure th It he approached a sal ject with which poli-
tieal
, I rise without considerable anxiety. It was painful to
, him to take a part which might be misunderstood and
misrepresented as unfavourable to literature and literary
' men. It was painful to him to oppose his Hon. and
Learned Friend on a question which he was sure he
. I had taken up from the purest motives, and had sup-
' ported with distinguished ability.—(Cheers.) But so
. satisfied was he that the proposed measure would con-
fer no boon on men of lettiirs, w hich would compensate
for the injury it would infleet upon the public—(He ir,
hear)—that he felt it his duty to express distinctly li's
disapprobation of it. One word on the subject to
which the greater part of his Learnel Friend's
speech related, for it was surely important that
in starting they should distinctly settle on ;ilea
principle the question rested. Was that a question
of right, or a qu-sstion of expediency ? It was of gr at
importance to determine that, because if it were an
undoubted question of right, he should be by no means
(lisp ...cc' to join in any compromise such as that which
his Hon. and Learned Friend acknowledged his Bill to
be. if there were a right in the case, let that right,
he should say, be vindicated, no matter at what cost.
He knew :hat some of those who had written on the
measure, and some of those who had presented peti-
tions in favour of it, laid it down as a principle, that a
man had, by the law of nature, an indefeasible right in
i his own ideas, in the fruits of his own imagination, amid
his own reason. The Legislature lead, of course, the
power to take away that right, as it had the power to
pass an Act of Attainder, or to cut ( ff the head of an
innocent party; but as such an Act of Attainder wou'd
be considered an act of legal murder, so an Act th-
-1 priving authors of their natural rights, should be looked
upon as an act of legal plunder. For his part, he most
[ certainly held that property was simply the creature of
the law, and that the law which created property could
be defended on no other ground than that it was a law
which tended to the benefit of mankind. But even
though he were to admit that property had a different
origin from that, that it was a right independent of
public utility, he should still hold that the right
would at all events expire with the original proprietor.
Whatever opinion might be held about the origin of
property itself, he maintained that the right of succes-
sion to it, as it now existed, was at all events the crea-
ture of the law. How, then, could the right of suc-
cession be considered as a right registered in Heaven,
as a right written in the minds of men, and anterior to
all legislation ? If there were such a law he was sure
that the law of copyright was by no means the only in-
stance in which it was violated. He need go no fur-
ther for an exemplification of that than the manner in
which personal property deseeaded, it, acing in certain
cases limited to the eldest son, in other cases divided
equally among the children, or being allowed to be
transmitted to strangers. Whatever might be the me-
taphysical opinions entertained as to the origin of the
right of property, there could be but one opinion, IL
apprehended, as to the principle by which legislation as
to the distribution of property should be guided, and
that principle was the public good.—(Loud cheers.)
Now that was the whole question between his Hon.
and Learned Friend and himself. He did not
wish to infringe upon or interfere ev'th the right of
the author during his life, and the whole question
between himself and his Hon. Friend, therefore, r:!•
duced itself to a question of posthumous copyright.—
(Cheers.) With regard to that, he contended that the
Legislature had a perfect right to act as might seem to
it best, that it was quite fair to act in any manner
which it might consider most conducive to the public
good.—(Cheers.) Let them now descend from the
clouds, and come to the practical consideration of the
question as to the duration of posthumous copyright ;
and in considering this question, it was to be recollected
that there were evils on both sides of the question.
He wished to see the most ample remuneration secured
to authors. We could not expect our literature
' to be kept up unless this were the case. It could only
be kept up by the exertions of those who had leisure af-
forded to them to pursue their literary labours. It
would not do to trust solely to the exertions of the rich
and noble to effect this, although among that
class there were to be found those who reflected
the highest honour, anti who had been of the greatest
possible service to literature, but they were not
impelled by necessity to those exertions, anal although
the desire of usefulness, and the desire of distinction,
were doubtless great motives to exertion with that class
of men, yet in this country, as the House was well
aware, the bulk of men of that class who were actuated
by those motives devoted their attention to politics,
and, therefore, the bulk of them could not, of course, be
depended upon to forward the cause of literature, which
must depend upon the exertions of men who looked to
it for their remuneration. Now, there were two ways
in which that remuneration might be afforded to literary
men—the one was by patronage, the other by copy-
right. With regard to the first, it might be, and doubt-
less was desirable, when the reading public was small in
number, and the author could not obtain a sufficient re-
muneration for the sale of his works, that an author
should enjoy the same sort of patronage as he had in
the days of Mecaenas, of Louis XIV., aed which
had been extended to literary men in this coun-
try by Halifax and Roxburghe ; but no one, if I
he valued the dignity of the literary character,
would wish to see such times as these.—(Cheers.) I I
He thought that literature ought to depend for support 1
upon the many, and not the few.—(Hear, hear.) ' A I I

particular case might arise in which it might be
proper, nay, in which it might be the sairel duty of
the Government to confer a pension upon genius in dis-
tress, but it was not right—it was not reasonable—that
literary men should be taught to look to patronage of
that sort for their support—(Cheers)—and the effect of
their doing so would be to turn their minds, which na-
ture had formed for the blessing and ornament of so-
ciety, into its scandal and its pest.—(Loud cheering.)
lie would admit that the giving a monopoly to the au-
thor was by far the most advantageous method of af-
fording remuneration to the author, but on the other
hand monopoly had its evils. When his Hon. and
Learned Friend said that it was a theory that a mono-
poly increased the price of works, it was the same thing
as saying that it was a theory that the sun gave us light,
that it was a theory that lead was heavier than water.
These were all theories, which were the results of the
experience of all men, of all ages, in all times, and he
should as soon expect to hear the accuracy of any de-
monstrated mathematical tru'h called in question, as to
bear it denied that the effect of monopoly must neces-
sarily be an increase of price.—(Cheers.) If the
theory of his Hon. and Learned Friend as to the ten-
dency of monopolies to cheapen articles were correct,
he should be prepared to go much beyond the present
Bill.—(Cheers.) Why not make the monopoly per-
petual ? Why not restore the monopoly of tea?—
(Cheers.) Nay, why not restore all those monopolies
which were in existence in the days of Q :eon Elizabeth,
and which had roused the people of this country to
such a pitch of indignation as to make even that proud
Princess flinch before the spirit of the people.—
(Cheers.) There could be no doubt that, abstractedly,
monopoly was an evil, and between these two evils they
must take their choice and exercise their judgment,
so as to devise the plan best for the public good.
He had no hesitation in saying that the aid which the
present law gave would be greatly impeded by the
measure proposed by his Learned Friend, for it would
have the effect of giving a sixty years' monopoly, which
would be highly injurious ; for the effect of it would be
to give an advantage that a man probably would never
enjoy himself. In such a case, what would that man
care for that advantage ? Was it reasonable to suppose
that that would produce any great effect upon his exer-
tions ? It was probable that a time would come when
property in Australasia would become exceedingly va-
luable, but would that induce any man to give 5/. for
a whole province there now ? Dr. Johnson died about
sixty years ago, and, if bid Learned Friend's proposition
led been law, there would have been a monopoly in his
works. Did any one think that the prospect of such a
thing would have given the Doctor any pleasure, or have
increased his exertions ? Certainly not ; he would much
sooner have had 2d. to buy him a plate of beet at some of
the coffee-houses in the Courts in Fleet-street, where
he was obliged to go. He (Mr: Maceulay) could buy
Rasselas at the present moment for Is., whereas if his
Learned Friend's proposition had been law he should
have been obliged perhaps to have given ss. He should
not grudge any amount he paid for books in consequence
of the law of copyright, provided it gave increased hopes
and energies to the author ; but when he was convinced
it would not, he must say that the public ought
to have the benefit of having their • works at a cheap
rate. The effect of copyright was to levy a tax upon
readers ; it was a tax upon the purest pleasures and
pursuits of mankind, and it was a tax hostile to the vir-
tues of the people. He had no objection to give
20,000/. to Dr. Johnson, hut he objected to imposing a
tax of 20,00 C/ upon the public without giving Dr. Johnson
one farthing's-worth of pleasure. No one would be more
. rejoiced than himself to sco a descendant of Shakspeare
. enjoying the profits of the works of his great ancestor,
but be would remind his lion. and Learned Friend that
7 probably there was no species of property which was
• less likely to be enjoyed by all the descendants of an
author than copyright. It would be sold to the book-
sellers long before the end of sixty years.—(Hear,
hears.) Would the bookseller give the same price for
a term of Of/years as he would for a term of 10? Every
one knows he would not, fo- nothing was more uncer-
tein than the value of copyrights: after so long a period.
Every one knew the estimation in which Cowley's works
were held in the time of Charles 11. and yet who now
read them ? The same might be said of Lord Bolling-
broke's works; they were eagerly sought for at a high
price when they first came out, but in 1810 they were
no longer thought of. He would say, therefore, that
. there was no species of property that would be parted
. with to the booksellers at a price so far below the bur-
den of the tax imposed upon the public as copyrights.
If he could select instances of the absurdity of such
protection he should mention a case which had been
referred to more than once by his Hon. and Learned
Friends he meant Milton's granddaughter. Trey
were all aware that Tonson the bookseller went to the
Court of Equity and obtained an injunction to restrain the
. printing of " Paradiss Lost." The injunction was oh-
tained in 1752, and Conies was performed for the be-
ni.fit of Milton's granddaughter in 1750. If they went
round the whole course of literature, they could not
'find so striking an instance of the inutility of such pos-
-1 tection. The party who printed a cheap edition of
Milton's works was punished ; and, in the meantime,
what became of the only person in whose welfare, if
living, Milton would have felt an interest ? His grand-
daughter was starving, while the public were compelled
to pay an exorbitant sum for his works, and they were
also compelled to pay a suns of money in charity for the
relief of his grandlingliter.—C.;licers.) But there was
another danger, as far as his knowledge went, that had
not been adverted to in the strong manner it ought—it
was a matter :which some believed chimerical, but
which lie believed to be real, and it was a
danger likely to arise, whether the copyright got
into the hands of the booksellers, or remeiried in the
hands of the descendants of the author. lie spoke
not of mutilation but of the utter suppression of valu-
able works.—(l-fear, hear.) . He bslieved there acre a
great many persons who, it they had their own way,
Fielding's novels and Gibbon's 1-;story, n ver
would have /seer, printed.—(Hear, hear.) There was
another author to whom he should also refer, and he
was sure his Hon. and Learned Friend would
admit, that Richardson's novels were among the most
original and striking of all the English writers, and no
one went closer to nature, with the exception of Shale.-
, speare, while none had spread the fame of English
literature more widely. Mr. Wilberforce, in speaking
of the anti-Christian tendency of works of that nature,
marks Richardson's as an exception ; and Mrs. Hannah
Moore declared that it was from the writings of
Richardson she first derived those principles of piety
that were her guide through life. Now no one could
suppose that a book like that could be suppressed, and
yet his firm belief was that if the copyright had been in
the hands of his descendants it would have been sup-
pressed. He was intimately acquainted with Richard-
son's grandson, a clergymen of the Established Church.
That gentleman had a strong feeling that novels were
frivolous reading, and he would not admit them into
his house. He would not read his grandfather's works,
and if ha had the power ho was satisfied he would never
allow them to be printed, and that a Clarissa, or a Sir
Charles Grandison would have been as hard to have
come at as a Caxton.—(Loud cheers and laughter )
Another question wou1:1 arise—what did an edition
consist of ? Would 12 copies on large paper, at 20
guineas each, be considered an edition, or were they
to lay down precise rules as to the number and psice ?
Every body knew what were the feelings of the eldest
son of Boswell: He thought the greatest blot on his
escutcheon was the whole of the relation that existed
between his father and Johnson. It ,was his (Mr.
Macaulay's) belief that actuated with that strong feeling
of vanity and pride, Bosweles son would have, if not
altogether suppressed his father's work, rendered it so
difficult to be obtained that it would he in the hands of
but very few at the present time, had the Bill now pro-
posed been then the law. It would indeed be as diffi-
cult to come at any of the works he had mentioned as
at the first edition of Camden's " Britannia." But if
the present law was to be superseded by the lion. and
Learned Gentleman's Bill, what was to become of '
books affecting the great sectarian and political parties ?
It was now, he believed, just fifty years since the great '
John Wesley founded that sect which was one of the
greatest and most flourishing ever founded, whose mem-
bers were now counted by hundreds of thousands. That
sect was indeed a union in the highest degree remark-
able, and its power and influence on all public occasicns,
such as political elections, &c., were counted upon
as of the greatest importance to every party. Tee me-
mory of the founder of that sect was held in the greatest
veneration by his followers, and his journals were of the
highest interest, as containing the whole history of the
rise and progress, in its infancy, of that important sect ;
his hymns, too, were such as would be, read wills interest
by all persons. Suppose, then, that the copyright of
the works of Wesley were to come, in the course of
transfer, into the bends of persons entertaining the feel-
ings which many persons did entertain and publicly ex-
pressed respecting Wesley—why it was only the other day
he took up a book in which he saw Wesley called a for-
sworn priest—suppose, then, the copyright of Wesley's
works came into the hands of persons who thus felt and
spoke, how difficult it would be to obtain those works'
so much regarded, and to which such interest attached,
if indeed they were not suppressed altogether ? Again,
suppose the case of the Book of Common Prayer being
suppressed for any period of time, why the price would
mount to five guineas, and such a monopoly as that, in ,
his opinion, his Hari. Friend's Bill would go to esta-
blish. What he. (Ms. Macaulcy) apprehended was,
that if his Hon. Friend's Bill should pass, if it. produced
one-tenth of the grievances that its passing into a law
was certainly calculated to produce, the evil would be
great indeed. He would say that if that Bill became
the law of the land—that as the poacher evaded the
Game-laws—as the smuggler evaded the Revenue-laws
—so would the piratical bookseller evade the law now
sought to be enacted. After some further observations
on the grievances that would arise to the public in ge-
neral from the passing of the Bill, the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman concluded by moving that the Bill be read a
second time that day six months.

Sir R. H. INGLIS felt great difficulty in following
the Right Hon. Gentlemen, after an exhibition of so
much eloquence, so much research, and powers of il-
lustration, perhaps unequalled in that House.—(Cheers.)