The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-20 00:00:00

create d

(3:u2tlon of the
Lo (Sir Edward SYlen)
Ithl srco to induce him to
Val the frine':;.,.,e, woult P.sk,

t (.ther 1311

whizth t

:in cs,:thdratl of

pre-cent var that
Nobti L

Ancther

rOdUCtion 0

0 provlsion

ilorc to produce fraud,
tl wake three
rich man

fig rert rig

•cbr a Ulf•

the rich a•;c1 the poor
objectious to tlle B 11 ;
LEttl the Houle
it a tribunal
thOtlg.t,t, ti c
No, no.") Ile

various

17a1 rt pr

d co :.Pry was satis&d with the Revising
ieers - ‘• No, uo.") There were smile
ti-:fit were notliing,. but when lion.

.iissatisfaction in that res.,' ect,
would ask tile a-, thz.t they should point
cat t'-at ..vould work beler.—(Hetr, hear.)
re maoliiaery of the pre eat'l3l.l way not what
to be, and thererore it was that he objected to
re respects to which he had adverted. Now,
acre tho amendments he proposed? Why, he
111 tag t.,) take the Noble Lord's Bid of 1838
3.39, wth a slight modification of the registration.
wool I ask, could the NoWe Lord reconcile his
.tr!t 1 ,it year with that he was now pursuing ? Last
the NoLl Lord brougt in a Bill to define the
!hire, but on the present measure the Noble Lord
ail the dfsculty en which the franchise depended
• decided by the Court of Appeal. In conclusion,
Le would give notice to the Noble Lord, that it was his
interition, in Committee, to mova the.expulsion of such
parts of the Bill as he had referred to, and he should
4sk leave to introduce other clauses, which would have
the cfiect of carrying eut...the objects he had in view.
Mr. GISBORNE was happy to find.tbat there was
so large a perfon of till present Bill which was net
nicely to be opposed by the other side. He was sur-
prised to hear the Right Hon. and Learned Gentle-
aim stAtl tsiat ve.-y littla evil had arisen from the con-
Meting decisions of the Revising Barristers under the
preyeet system. The Right Hon. Gentleman had not
had so much experience in the Barristers' Courts as
he had, hut he rememberel an instance in which two
Beniiters, sitting, in the same room, with only a par-
tition betweeo, were deciding one one way and the
et' GC: anetl:a: ;'one Barrister was :admitting the trus-
tees of all chapels, and the other.was rejecting them.
He recollected another Ina Ince, where in one part of
a county two Quakers were admitted to vote, and in
another part were struck out. The,Hon. and Learned
Gentleman particularly objected to the Speaker having
political appointments, or appointments having a poll-
f.cal tendency. He begged to remind the House that
a proposal somewhat sire ir to the present had been
made by the Right lion. Baronet the Member for
Tamwoith, when ho introduced his plan for the ap-
poictment.of the Committee of . selection for election
petitions.—( Heir, hear.) There was some part of the
remarks of the Right Hon. Gentleman on the subject
of established voters in which he entirely concurred.
Teis Bill -gave great encouragement to persons to
establish their votes. That was undoubtedly a privi-
lege ; but. the extent of the benefit conferred would de-
pend entirely upon what 0;e voter was called upon to
establish before he could be admitted to vote. The
words of 'the Reform Bill were, that the claim of the
party wasto be proved to the satisfaction of the. Barrister ;
'cords giving the Barrister very extensive powers, and
leaving a great deal in his hands. He believed,• how-
ever, that the usual custom of the Barristers had been,
not to call upon him technically to prove his title, but,
if Lc was in the receipt of the rents and profits, to hold
that that was sufficient proof ol title. He (Mr. Gis-
borne) considered that that was the true mode.
If a person was unlawfully in possession of
property, kt the law be applied, but the Court of
Revising Barristers should not try the question
of the title of persons to the property for which they
claimed. The 56th clause of this Bill read thus .--
" Nor Amu any objection to the title of any eStablished

viLvt

I

to il

voter to bold any land-or tenements be allowed." That
was the cave of a person objected to as an established
voter. The plain inference from that was, that if the.
party was not an established voter the Revising Bar-
rister should have power of inquiry into his title. If
not, why were those words introduced ? 'Why was it
Said that the title of as established voter should not be
inquired into unless it was open to the Revising Barris-
ter to inquire into the title of those who were not esta-
blished ? His view was that possession should be taken
as a sufficient title, and that would remove one of the
great objections which he should otherlise have to the
system of making a' distinction between established
voters and voters not established. There was another
provision which he thought ought to be introduced, in
order to make the Bill consistent. If a person were ob-
jected to, it was now for the first time required that the
grounds of objection should be stated. It. would be
going too far to say that when a person had been
brought up upon ore ground of objection only, and that
had been decided in his favour, he should be considered
as an established voter ; but having sustaieed bis vote
upon that ground, be thought he ought not to be ob-
jected to upon that ground again. Doubtless, there
would remain great objections to the dividing voters
into two classes—the established, and the non-esta-
blished. To the person of property it would be a mat-
ter of little consequence, but to the. poorer weer it
would occasion great inconvenience.—(Hear, hear.)
Let them take the case of a poor man pos-
sessed of a 51. house, who bad mortgaged it for 31.
He would have to procure the attendance of the. mort-
gagee and of the .lawyer, so that there would be con-
sidrable difficulty and expense in the way of his esta-
blishing his right to vote, which the rich man would not
experience ; in fact, he would be left as a mark to be
shot at by any person who chose to object to him. He
did not say that this was a sufficient objection to the
making two distinct classes of voters, but he mentioned
it as an illustration of the disadvantages under which
the non-established voter would labour, and also with a
view of showing that when once one ground of objec-
tion had been established to be untenable, the voter
should not again be liable to objection on that ground.
He thought there was something in the objections
taken by the Right Hon. Gentleman to the ambulatory
character of the Commissioners for the revision of the
lists, but on the whole great advantage would accrue
from the establishment of a Court of Appeal, without
which there was no prospect of their obtaining anything
like a uniformity of decisions. He thought, however,
on the whole, notwithstanding the objections that might
be urged against some of its details, that the Bill pro-
ceeded on an equitable principle, and that it would cor-
rect many of the abuses of the old system. The objec-
tions were to the minor points, and he felt great satis-
faction in witnessing the introduction of the measure.
Mr. W ARBUItTON said that as there was to be no
division on the second reading of the Bill, it was not
his intention to enlarge on the objection urged against
it. He should observe, however, that he thought it
was a settled point that the present constitution of the
Courts of the Revising Barristers was highly objection-
Ale, and had been found exceedingly inconvenient by
the electors, as wcil as by the House, in consequence
of the great number of disputed points that came be-
fore Election Cernmittees. He believed he might al-
lude te the neectiations which hod taken place between
both sides of the House in 18.18, on the constitution of
the Courts of the Revising Barristers, by which many
of those points ..•:ere decided, to which the Right Hon.
Baronet opposite had objected. The Right Hon. Ba-
ronst had complained of that provision of the Bill which
took away from the Revising Barristers the opportunhy
f again returning to Westminster Hall ; but he (Mr.
Warburton) aid sot think that such a provision would
operate unfavourably. The Commissioners cf the
Court of Bankruptcy were placed in the same poSition ;
and he, whatever might be the other defeats of that
Court, believed that no complaint had ever been made
upon Cast head. The fact was, that cases of the most
complicated nature in law and equity %multi come be-
fore the" Revising Courts: and these would be sufficient
y their entire attention. He would reserve any
other observations he might have to make on this sub.'
jcct till the House went into Committee on the Bill.
Mr. HUME said diet he thought it would he easy
to avoid many of the inconveniences which it was urged
woell follow from the Bill. The Government might
get rid of the objections to the measure by defining the
franchise as they had done for Ireland.--(Hear, hear,
from the Odpesition Beuchea.) He had ahvays under-
stood that whet was good for England was good for
Ireland, and what was good for Lelaod was good for
Ea and.—( liar, hear.) As far, howevsr, as the 1 .11
went, he thought it was a gre it improvement in the pre•
vent sv:tem.

to occ

Mr. ROWLAND ALSTON supportel o,ie Bill,
as he thouglit it high free that the pre:ent syvem
sheul,l be a:te ed._ _ .

Cull: el SIBTUORP begged to ask what the salary
of tic Barrister would le. Perhaps that subje(t was
below tire Noble Lord's consideration ; but he should
eertninly take tbe zen:e of the tiouEe on it in Com-

Lord. JOHN RUSSELL was not prepared anti!

tl-y

tint

il+'i 1C

C C

t) St

mount. of

rsd Galia

Membcr

~inr of wxmomy, v becd to inform
bll :? a .t,L;v::-g probthly of 15,000/.

proposei systcm.

At preFeat tht, cost wts

,35,000/. or 86,000/., and it would be ah-mthalf that sum
under the new cyst. m. Now when the Hon. end Gal
lent Member wou'd see the reduction of expense, he
wculd perhaps give his suppott to the measure, bet of
.

course ester;

V wont

into Cuminittee it wou!d be for

him to propose any further reduction if ho thought
proper. The Right lien. Gentleman opposite had
tulde a great many observationi on the details of that
measure, but he (Lo:d John Russell) would nut falfew
him. It wi-,s sail thA there was :•orncurafairne:s in the

orci!;7ion of the tst of the payment of taxes. He
had thought it very inexpedient to keep up the test of
il.c p.lytr.e:a of taxei and rate, ni each had often dir-
fraezh:.el a number of vt.t..:rs who were otherwife fully
entitled to cote.---( oar, Few.) It was certainly his
intention to make some &he:rat:on in the (huge with
respect to the pa:i wont of rale3 and taxer and the change
of o7ouPation, When his Hon. reield the Me:liter

for Kilkenny bad asked why not make the franchise
th,!slmc in Encrb,lnd as in Ireland ? had been cheered
by the Hon. Gentlemen opposite; l)ut he dii not know
whether they meant by that to abolish tily2 403. free-
holders, or to introduce ,s3gain thc 40s. frcel:olders to
Ireland. He certainly was not inclined to agree to
r,ny proposition for aborishing the 40g. freel,o!dt-T6 it
E, 314,4 d, because he thought them a Most useful and
important class of voters. • _ _ _ _

The Bin :vas ttea read a second fmo, and ordered
to be committee that day e'nriight.
'EAST INDIA RUM BILL.

Oil the mot'on of Mr. LABOUCHERE, the East
India Ruin 13!:1 tints real a second flair, and ordered to
Le comakted on Monday.

IRELAND

Thn Tithe Coinposi;imla (Irc'and). Bill was nal a
third time And poised.
The Committee on the Turnpike Ae!s Continuance
(Ireland) Bill Wll3 postponed to Fiiday.
MACHINERY.

Mr. BROTHEItTON moved that the following be
nominated the Select Committee on Machinery :—Mr.
Mark Philips, Sir Robert Peel, Mr. Labouchere, Lord
Francis Egerton, Mr. Hume, Lord Viscount Sander,
Sir George Strickland, Mr. Emerson Tennent, Mr.
Morrison, Mr. Bolling, Mr. Vl:Hers, Mr. Townley Par-
ker, Mr. John Heatlicoat, Mr. Colquhoun, and Mr.
Oswald.