The Sun.
London, England, 1840-11-28 00:00:00

C J J~~~

LONDON, SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 2B, is

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FRANCE.

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Just published with Four additional Pawes, No. 111., of
THE STUDENT, an EI\rGLISEI and
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Containing Original Essays, Reviews, Biographical Sketches,
&c., with Translations and Extracts from the. most approved
English, French, and Italian authors, and a Self-instructing
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London : Sherwood and Co., Paternoster-row ; Clement.
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As it is of the utmost importance that the debate on the
Address in the French Chamber of Deputies should be
given as correctly as possible, we have translated from the
Moniteur and the Messaor, the whole of the debate from
its commencement on Wednesday till Thursday afternoon
To the British public no apology need be offered for any
degree of zaal in guarding against a misconception of the
real sentiments of the representatives of France.
CHAMBER OF DEPUTIES, Nov. 25.
DEBATE ON TIIE ADDRESS.
Marshal Soult first ascended the tribune, and said he claimed
the right to engage the responsibility of the Cabinet on this great
question by a few explanations. His great object was to maintain
the truth. '1 he truth was, notwithstanding all attacks, that
France was ready for a just and honourable war, but that it pre-
ferred,
peace. Such was the idea which directed his present policy, as
and eouneilled both to itself and to Europe, an honourable
that of his former Cabinet. When the Ministry of the 12th of
May retired from office, this same desire had not been disavowed;
and now that the difficulties of the situation have been auemented,
it is the open and frankly avowed object of the present Administra-
tion. Faithful to the policy which had prevailed from the year
1830, France was anxious that the East should be preserved
from the visitation of war. It was aboVe all impor.
taut that a disastrous war should not break out in the
Ottoman empire, or at least, that if it did break out, it
should be terminated as speedy, as possible. What we
were anxious for, and what we still desire, was the safety
of Constantinople and even of Egypt. In demanding that the vas_
sat of the Porte should be maintained in a favourable position, we
wished to spare him the experiment of a war. France, which ap.
-'Geared to be more disinterested than all
,the Others in the Eastern
about question, had most chance of bringing laoitZnquttal3terrfente-
ment. It made efforts for this. it declaration was made, guaran.
teeing the integrity and independence of the Ottoman empire against
all, even against its protectors. ;A French fleet watched over Con-
stantinople. Inc Paella; inviteille make concessions, vso defended
on other points iand, larance,„ltaving taken taroteet sit attitude,
hopedstasasaoesaaseirtiarelotionce over the councilsof Europe. A
collective peotectosesseased bestaautaitittlted ter. atl I ;
Du rs it wißriniportant that Franeti should not be shut out ciflhim
lective protectorate. There was every wish on the part of the,
other Powers to admit her into it ; and hence the proposals and
concessions, greater or less, made at different times. Let Its be
just to ourselves without accusing others, nor supptee that any
other Power could be anxious to quarrel with us. On the con.
tsary, the opposition to France on account of its support of Egypt
had diminished, and much that was contested at first had
been subsequently ceded. Why were these concessions not
followed by results ? Why did important overtures made later
lead to no reconciliation? Why did no arrangement take piece
for a greater or less proportion of Syria, under a longer or shorter
tenure, instead of coming down to the abandonment of all Syria to
the chances of war ? lie would not examine this. He accepted
facts already acomplished ; but he was t ersuaded that. France was
a country with which all Powers would be rather at peace than at
war. There can, there could be no intention to insult us. It is
well known what France has done and can do. Ile saw in the re-
spect paid to himself in England, that the English knew well how
to appreciate the cld French soldier. He was proud and anxious
to preserve the esteem of the English in serving his own country,
whose interests he preferred to peace, and which he would not dis-
honour or compromise at the close of his days. As War Minister, he
saw that France must preserve an armed peace, and concentrate its
force, without letting loose mad passions, show itself powerful with-
out provocation, ready for events but equitable in appreciating the
acts of others. We may thus spare France the necessity of making
too great sacrifices to objects not of inoperative necessity. He
hoped that having long served the State as General, he could now
best serve it as a citizen.
M Thiers then ascended the tribune, and addressed the Chamber
as follows—The Chamber will, I hope, appreciate the motives
which have induced me to address it at so early a period of the dis-
cussion. Having taken a part in the great events of the last few
months, I naturally feel desirous of rendering an accnunt of my
conduct to the Chamber and to the country. I will do this with
frankness, but, at the same time, I will respect the secrets of the
State. I will not make of this great discussion a sorry affair of
personal feeling. Whilst Europe has its eyes upon us, I will not
endeavour to throw upon my predecessors or upon my successors
the responsibility of the misfortunes of the country. So, Gentle.
men, I will strictly confine myself to an expose of facts. I will not
recal to the' Chamber the way in which the Eastern question arose
here. We had not been fortunate in the Belgian question, the Italian
question, the Spanish question, and every person saw in the
Egyptian question the means of securing the prosperity of the
country. This is shown by the labours of one of your Honourable
Reporters, M. de Jouffroy. Every one was anxious that France
should play a great part In the Eastern question. They considered
that it was the interest of France to maintain the integrity of the
Ottoman empire. What was meant by this principle? That the
Ottoman empire should be rendered thoroughly independent, and
what had been created in Egypt be consolidated. An immense
difficulty, however, presented itself—we had before us Russia and
England. It was, indeed, a bold thing to enter upon this ques.
tion ; but, having entered upon it, we were bound to persevere,
and to come out of it with honour, and in a manner worthy of
the French nation—
Passy here asked leave to speak.
M. Mites resumed—l do not want to accuse any one. I admit
the difficulty for all of us ; but I ask justice for myself, giving, per-
haps, more than justice to others. It was extremely difficult to
keep French interests in the East, having both England and Russia
to keep head against. There was, indeed, a hardy and selfish po-
licy, which would have enabled France, instead of uniting all the
Powers, to separate them irrevocably, and then, after having sepa.
rated them, to render the alliance of France necessary for one as
for the other, and to take advantage of this to make conditions.
Permit me to describe the sta‘e of wings when news of hostilities
in the East was brought. England was seized with suspicions and
renewaedlliancSehah She wished
if,eroavrsi,dethfaotrtthheiseviemnintsodofiailel3y,Bamndisttihtote
h her g
was
somewhat relaxed. owing to the Spanish and Belgian question,
he was still anxious to form a close alliance with us. It would
have beemeasy for them to have exaggerated the-suspicions of Eng-
land, and pushed matters to a war. Russia 1151 V with regret the
wish of England to form an alliance with France. She was pre-
pared not to recoil, but to meet events with energy. Austria and
Prussia, dreading the collision between England and Russia, were
for interfering. In this state of things, France might have blown
the flame, and set Europe in a conflagration. Instead of that she
succeeded in bringing about a general reconciliation, a restoration
of European harmony and concert. England then proposed a close
union between her and France. She proposed to unite the two
fleets, send them to the coast of Syria, and force the two bellige.
rents to lay down their arms,
the Russians all and alter that, after taking a say from
etioltfl tehsetyinhath"een3
pretext to remain at Constantinople, to proceed
.arTeinl Icehmca ianbi
nheetrerespaiiide,d
thither and summon them to quit it.
eodthtoofbmityli,erles.3"9.
It al. Thiess resumed—To summon them in words, which would
leave no doubt as to the immediate consequences of their refusal.
declared it not ready to explain the designs of France till it
knew more completely those of England, which seemed singu.
Theft.
larly to acquiesce in the arrival, in the first instance, of the Russians
.at Constantinople. The French Cabinet thus, going further than
the English Cabinet, made a profound impression on the latter,
which replied by a demand for an alliance between France and
England, the union and action of the combined fleets, the forcing
the Pacha and the Sultan to lay y down their arms, and then to pro.
cecd to the Dardanelles, summon the Russians to withdraw if they,
were there, or, if they were only coining, to ask leave of the Porte
to enter the Dardanelles to oppose them, or to do so without the
leave of the Porte, were it refused. France had here the option of
uniting her policy for ever to that of England; it was not without
peril. Instead of this she proposed not to give the Admiral the
bold orders which England wished, but to bid them ask leave of the
Porte to enter the Dardanelles simultaneously with the Rus
sians entering the Bosphorus. With this she proposed to unite
a Congress of all the Powers at Vienna, and of all the flags on th 4
sea, even the Russian flag, so as to act in concert on the Syrian
Matt, and in the Sea of Martnora, and for the Five Powers to take
the place of the Sultan in negotiating with the Paeha, England
made several objections to this plan. She edhered to the proposat
of France with respect to the orders to be given td the Admirals;
She objected to Vienna as the place of conference, preferring Lath,
don or Paris. She did not like the assembly of all the flags allei
fleets, especially of the Russian flag ; but she highly approved the
idea of all the Five Powers undertaking to settle the delimitation
between Porte and Pacha. The Conference of the Powers was
proposed at Vienna, where Prince Metternich instantly foresaw
that Russia would object to it, on account of the great activity
and zeal shown by England and France. He foresaw rightly,
Russia refused to join the Conference, declaring that the unsex.
sonable activity of the Powers would destroy the repose of Europe,
instead of preserving it. But what failed in Vienna succeeded in
Constantinople, Had Admiral Roussin, who had received in.
structions of which the spirit was conformable to the intended note
of the 27th of July, signed it—

NEW WORK BY CAPTAIN 11ARRYAT, C.B.
This day is published, in 3rnipost BT('''
OLL A PO'OWRIDA
By CAPTAIN MARRYAT, C.D. ~.., London : Longman, Ormr, and Co.

- - -In a few days will be published, in 1 vol. royal Bvo.
C
ArfERINIOLE'S HISTORICAL
ANNUAL. Vol. I. being
THE HISTORY OF THE CIVIL WARS
BETWEEN CHARLES 1. AND TIE PARLIAMENT.
By the Rev. RICHARD CATTERMOLE
Illustrated with Fifteen Plates, from Drawings .by
GEORGE CATTERMOLE, Esq.
London : Longman. Orme, and Co.

rUHE MONTHLY CHRONICLE for
DECEMBER contains—
I. A Christmas Gossip about New/Books-2. To Words-
worth-3. Letters from the Continent : Rome ; the Graves
of Shelley and Keats ; Fine Arts and Artists ; Florence ;
Roman and Tuscan Governments-4. The Poet's Alission-
5. To a fair Cousin-6. The Monja Alferez, a Strange His-
tory-7. Introduction to the Study of the 01(1 English Dra-
matists, Part 111.-8. Das Vaterland-9. Sonnet-10. Light
and Speech-41.• The Black Mail, a Tale.
London Longman, Orme, and Co.

THE ROMt ,c (41_ ROBERT MACAIRE.
Mr. TEOG has now ready, and' may be read at all , the Li-
braries. Book-clubs, and Literary Institutions in the KF4geforis.
tiggo P-1114114449 NIA N.C-aafN Oil .I{.'l"-
MACAIRE. • -
By G. W. REYNOLDS.
Author of " Pickwick Abroad," &c.,
With Eighteen inimitable Engravings by Phiz ; in 3 volumes,
post Bvo.

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IVIR. J. ROBINSON' will sell by AUCTION
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whole of the EQUIPMENT of the above TAVERN, con-
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Comprising Mahogany Dining and other Tables, sets of Ma-
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frames, Brussels and Kidderminster Carpets, Hearth Rugs,
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The STOCK IN TRADE, consisting of a few Dozen of
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which time the Goods may be viewed.

France ought to have ob-
'n'terenee of
tectorate of
de
feups Withoutreidvet specialohejrootnf
tt
the
eV:err
Constantinople, accepted the note of the 27th of r
Vienna,il,iri
..
7 hbi li
ceecirn
as a:
ri
because
hereitmod threatened— observed,Ruta----
o'
r.
July because it
was directed solely against the 1
tained some credit for her conciliatory endeavours, then crowned
with success. On the contrary, the other Powers united against
her. The signature of the note of the Cher
July caused the great.
est joy in London. The Engnsh Minister exclainled that Russia
was now tied to the rest of Europe, that her exclusive protectorate
ceased, and that accordingly, the distrustful and threatening atti-
tude of England towards Russia ceased. France gave to En I dadvice contrary to this, and bad her beware of Russia ;
it fl an
less. England drew nearer and nearer still to the CabinewtaosfusSet:
'actia.
Petersburg ; and from that moment England made to France a
series of P °positions, all dangerous and inimieal to her interests,
was hich Marshal Soult's former Cabinet was right to reject. One
wto take the Turkish fleet from the Pacha, which so excited the
press of both countries, and first relaxed the bonds
of the alliance.
On the 21st of September the French Cabinet proposed to 'give
Egypt and Syria in hereditary righHtotlo the. Pacha, and Candia for
life, he giving up Adana and thel 0
ty Cities, a-
s'lgiand rejected
the proposals. Yet M. de Fique.lim n , who replaced Prince Met.
ternich during his absence and illness. wrote to London that he
accepted these conditions for hisd Cabinet. lint Austria and Prus.
sia soon abandoned their views tot al o.pt tho._
" of England, which
were to give the Pacha of Egypt so e y in hereditary right. M. Bru-
now then arrived in London.
M. Passy said he arrived on the 15th of September.
M. Martih remarked that his
September,
rrival was anterior to the de-
spatches of the 21st and 22d Of
_h
M. Thiers—i
ai BrunoW declared t at, as to the territorial ques-
iews of England
tion, Russia adhered to the v
As to the means of
the
F ranceand
coercion, she adopted the plan o , viz., the employment of
lish
all the European flags,
- Eng French flags coercing the
Pacha in Syria, and the Russian nalg,
was
the sea of Constanti.
nople. This was unacceptable.
.s a repetition of the Treaty
England, at the wish of F
of Unkiar Skelessi.
ace ranee, rejected these
1 nd then turned and In 1 t ropositions to France, which,
proposa s, a
to be accepted, it was these.
if ever her proposals were iese. She offered
cre, without
Egypt, and the Pachalie of A.
at
hthe fortress, both here.
a des
ditary. This was contained in
fP c of the 3d of October.
France here obtained the rejection o . Brunow's oilers, and new
concessions to herself. Marshal ti
last Cabinet rejected these
offers on the
14th of October. This
iwas made known to Lord Pal.
merston, and the-English Minister nstantly semi—,
cu in the most
that the concession of the Paehalic of Acre was with-
icy manner,
relations between drawn. From that day the the two countries be. It and for all reconciliation became impossi.
came diflicu ,naturally,
ble. The question of territory was again agitated. Russia was
walling to 'cede in this respect. England would not allow
roposal, for all
it. England made a new Pflags to enter the
the
Dardanelles, if Russia entered . Bosphorus, offering
at the same time Egypt hereditarily to the Pacha.
France refused for the second time. Tlie Treaty of July, if
no actually signed that day, was virtually thenceforth concluded
At this time M. Guiaot left Paris for London, and he was in
strutted to obtain from the English Cabinet the hereditary pos.
session of Egypt and Syria for the Pacha; this was the position in
which the Cabinet of the Ist March found affairs on its accession
to power. What had taken place may be summed up in a few
words; France, instead of seeking to disunite the Powers, sought

which, Prince Metternich was most wroth ; and
very O
gran eavlesrunsipnigcien arose as to what could have induced M. Figuel-
mont so to run counter to the spirit of an administration of which
he was but the temporary representative,

PRICE 6d.

to bring them to an understanding ;it had not succeeded in this the question with all her forces, she would have obtained the rea.
at Vienna—it succeeded in it at Constantinople by the note of i:ie I sonable coneesssions whit* we demanded : Europe would not have
27th July; and scarcely had this result been obtained than the beat willing to trouble the gelltval peace for a portion of Syria. I
Four Powers separated themselves from her, and formed a closer was also t'f opinion it was necessary to protest against the deposing
alliance with England. The Four Powers were now averse to of Mehemet Ali ; and in this I agreed with my colleague. We
granting more than the Pechalic of Acre and Feiel/t in hereditary did so by a note. Ms wished to oppose to an act of deposition an
possession, although they before agreed to grant the hereditary Go. act of guarantee. But tve did not stop there ; we thought it ne..
vernrnent of Egypt and Syria. The Cabinet of tl:e letli May li mil eels/try to add a physical effect to a moral effect ; that is to .•ay, to
three times refused the hereditary possession of Egypt. and the l'a• send the French fleet to Alexandria. and to make the French !lac
clialic of Acre. This wa; the situation in which we amend affairs. float on the walls of that town. We had resolved also to make a.'
The refusal of the new Cabinet of the Ist March to listen to the appeal to the Chambers, and to demand of them the means of teen.
proposition of England arose from a policy wain I will call piecing the armaments; we did so. This was our conduct. The
national, and which has obtained the sympathies of the no- sending of the fleet to Alexandria amounted to a case of war, not
tion. The Chamber became associated with this policy ; and it inevitable, but possible; but such an act would have sustained and
was out of the power of the Cabinet, to which he belonged, to saved the Viceroy; and Ido not think that the country will be angry
change it. Ills Cabinet was of the same opinion with the couldrY with a former Minister merely because he owns thst he had dared
in considerine that it had immense and real interests in this gees- to expose it to the possibility of a war. (M. Thiess here en-
tion—interests Shy tears old. I was always convinced that we tercd upon the justification of the motives which led to his
could not have the same influence in Constantin:epic that we had resignation. Ile said that he had wished in the Speech from the
in Egypt, because we were not the most powerful ally of the Porte Throne to explain the intentions and projects of the Cabinet, and
against Russia, and because an attachment to the Pacha retedered that all his views not having been adopted, he had telt it to be his
us suspected. We ought, therefore, to sesk cur chief influence duty to retire from office.) In fine, continued the Hon. Member,
over the Mediterranean at Alexandria- We might sacrifice this we negotiated up to the time of the signing of the Treaty; but the
to the desire of peace, if it was a mediocre interest, Ilia Wil; a Treaty once signed, the Cabinet adopted a serious resolution, that
great interest, I should have betrayed the country had I yielded. of arming the country. My colleagues and myself retired when
It has been said to us do not listen to the voice cf the prees, or we could not obtain the completion of tine measures which we
the voice of the Chambers.—(Exclamations of " Oh, oh !" " Yea, thought necessary for obtaining a modification of the Treaty. The
yes!") lam pleased wills this interruption, Gentlemen, fur the Speech from the Thrusts expresses a desire for peace; it has not
Chambers are something, and their voice must be Irrerd.—(Appro- raid encrogh, we are certain of peace; that is plain enough. But
batiou.) The Cabinet of the Ist of March knew how to respect why has the Ministry of 29th October replaced that of Ist March?
public opinion, the opinion of the Country; it has taken it for its Because the latter thought that in certain canes war was possible.
guide, and it thinks that it did rightly. I besides knew the dispo. The Cabinet of the alftes October wishes for Peace : it believes
sitions of England and the situetion of the Eugheh Cabiect, Lord firmly in peace ; it came Into office in order to make peace
Palinerston continuing to persist that France would yield. I seas quite eettedn.—(lnterruption.) 1 said that the Cabinet caste
bound in honour and duty under such circumstances to continue into office with the certainty of pence, but I am snaking
the policy which had obtained the support of the Chambers and of I a slight mistake ; the question upon/ which the Cabinet
the country. General Sebastiani quitted his must as AMi2At'lartnr -.o.4.#7,Ailarch went (*A of office wag Shia—it was not
to England, 'and in doing so be rendered a great sex.,, e , , or That the Treaty of tine 15th July should be executed,
France.—(Cries of "Alt, ah,'' and great interruption.) Yes, Gen- and therefore it teek up arms. 'The Cabinet of egth October,
I
Heinen, I i cleat that General Ss i'astiani, by resigning his Post, however, has stopped the armaments. Ali ! gentlemen, I think
rendered is 9-eat service to Ira idea because by it we gained time you are too good citizens to act thus if you expected a war !--(AP-
for eee,eiatieetea,..„(tereee of et lab,. :seise) . 1 gave instructions to probation.) Noe you do not CAneCf a war ; yes, you are certain of
M. Guizot roe zeo hurry on mette, e. bat to teraporiae and retards; peace; you Would bit but too culpablss if you acted thus while you
attairs, in order to facilitate an errengement. Gentlemen, for the I thought a war wail possible.--(Yes, yes. Bravos from the Left and
sakeor truth and for the honour of the country, listen to these Centre Lett.) You are disarming, you earnest longer negotiate ; fiefs. It has been said that I have been blind ;be if so—the facts the affair is over; 'the question has been cut short by peace; the
arc before you, Ido not distort them. If I do, let M. Guizot de- Powers will grant to the niche only as much as they think fit. For '
dare on the instant to my country that I deceive it.— (Cries of me the question is quite resolve:l ; so it is for the country; and
" Very well, very well.") 'This is the truth. I acknowledge that hence arises the calm which you all witness at the present day. But
at the moment when I proposed this plan of temporising, m. Guizot do you knew what will result from such a settlement ? France
wrote a despatch, which I shall be allowed to read. M. Guizot has lost all influence in the Mediterranean ; and this is not only a
wrote as follows : " Nothing will happen for some time in the ISest, physical loss, but it is also a moral one; whereas, if you had been
added Lord Palmerston. The Pacha of Egypt will remain tranquil willing, you might have got rid of the Treaties of ISIS. Our in.
and we need not be in a hurry. I confirmed Lim in this idea, fluence in Europe is lost for ever. Henceforth, on all questions
and ant confident that he has no intention of deciding or doing whereon the interest of England shall not squaw with ours,
anything till alter the arrival of the Turkish Ambassador, We the three Continental Powers will be all against us. There will
therefore have time. But I must observe that this advantage always be a coalition against France, and this country will
may be transformed into a danger if we let any one suppose remain powerless. What is now coming to pass you ought to
that because nothing is done at present, nothing can have foreseen long ago. When you made your revolution—an
be done in future, and that we shall thus dispense honourable revolution—you ought to have said to yourselves, in
with the necessity of forming a resolution. The Bri- such and such cases we shall be sure to have Europe against us. A
Cis!) Cabinet thines the moment favourable fin' settling country which wishes to save its territory when menaced, as the
the afleirs of the East, and thinks seriously of taking advan. Address says—(Long interruption)—a country which desires only
tage of the moment. It would prefer settling them with us, if pos. to protect its territory ought to reduce—not its energy to its preten•
sibte, and would make concessions to obtain an adhesion. But we sions, but its pretensions to the energy it is supposed to have credit
aim at always deferring and converting difficulties into impossibili. for,_(" Very well, very well," from the Left. Long agitation.)
ties; and the thine will come wheh the British Cabinet will take a M. Dupin—l ask for leave to speak.—(" No, no," from numer.
sudden resolution to do something without us. Time may serve ous voices.)
us, provided we make use o four time in bringing the English Cabi. The President declared that 51. Dupin had leave to speak upon a
net into a common plan of arrangement, If we do not, I fear it personal fact.
may turn against us." M. Thiess here regretted that the commis- M. Dupin demanded permission to speak on a point personally
sion had not heard hi, explanations, and then continued—l in. affecting himself and the other Members of the Corr mittee on the
stalitly replied to M. Guizot, saying, "It is possible, it is probable, Address.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear," and of " Order, order,"
that sooner or later a plan will be adopted in London ; can we not from the Left.) M. Dupin, however, proceeded, saying—You shall
ourselves make a proposition to the English Cabinet, and what shall not prevent my protesting against the interpretation which has been
we demand ? Egypt and Syria in hereditary possession ? But by given to certain passages in the Address. The Member who has
making this proposition we shall irritate the negotiators, and all just left tine tribune hastinsulted us in the most cruel manner. He
will be broken off; let us wait, let us temporise; we can no longer had done violence to our sentiments as Frenchmen.—(oh, oh )
act at Constantinople. Well—let us wait, let us gain thine." M. M. Thiers here observed that he had insulted nobody.
Guizot then replied, " Yes, I believe we must gain time, let us M. Dupin—l answer to all that has been said applicable to the
temporize." I considered myself in accordance with the Atn. Address_(Munnurs.) We hare been insulted by giving to the
bassador of France, and I persisted more and more in my line Address the signification that we desired peace at any price—peace
of policy. Let us now come to what was done at constanti- at the expense of honour.—(Explanations.) I assert the unfair.
nople. These are the facts; the agents of France had always ness of this interpretation.—(lnterruption.) We have been told
held one language. The English Ambassador had incessantly that we would not go to war under any circumstances. This is
said to the Sultan, "Come to no arrangement with the Viceroy; not true. We are the friends of peace, because we believe it to be
France will not isolate herself from the Four Powers and there will for the good of the country. There are wars which we would not
soon arrive a resolution from London." What was the language enter into, but there arc others which we would willingly undertake.
held by the French agents ? They said, "You are deceived. France —(Ala, ah, and laughter.) The Hon. Member then read the Ad.
will not be forced into anything. She will not consent to what is dress, and confined himself to arguing that it expressed no more
done in London. Therefore no resolution will come from London, than that the Government was desirous of peace, but with
and a direct arrangementis the only issue possible." French agents honour, and that it was ready to enter upon any just and advan.
could but think a direct arrangement the beat, and they did not tageous war.
conceal their thoughts. But I, said M. Thiers, did not labour to M. Guizot—Al. Thiers has just said that peace had been re.
bring about a direct arrangement. I will net say that others did solved upon, and was certain M. Thiers had said only half the
worse by exciting an insurreetion in Syria, for the time is not come truth. Under the Ministry of the Ist March, the question had
to make these accusations. But I assert that I forbade all French also been resolved ; war was certain.—(Great approbation.) Do
agents to attempt to bring about a direct arrangement. M. Thiers you require the proof of what I say ? You have only to refer to
here read a despatch of his to M. Pontois. dated March the 171 h, what M. Thiess has just stated. He spoke of the deplorable solit-
conceived in this sense, and one dated April 17th, renewing the iii- lion for us of the Belgian question, time Italian question, and the
junction. M. de Pontois, said M. Thiers, replied that he had fully Spanish question, And why was it deplorable ? We consider the
understatel the instructions, and that they should be followed to the solution to have been a very proper one.—(Great interruption from
letter. You see, gentlemen, continued M. Thiess, that I had taken the Left.)
away every ground of suspicion from the English Government. I M. Piscatory (addressing M. Guizot)—You yourself have de.
was anxious to prevent its supposing that it was my intention to dared the contrary—(Cries of " Order.")
take the negotiations out of the hands of the conference. I M. Piscatory, after this interruption, rose in anger, and rushed
was perhaps wrong in this, but I was determined that Eng- out of the Chamber.
land should have no pretext for estranging herself loon The President—The Chamber is hound to observe silence
Francs'. It is orr duty not to give to Foreign Powers towards all who are speaking, and particularly towards the Minis..
grounds of estrangement.—( A eprobatione el Guizot wrote ters of the King.
to me on the 3d of April. "We can gain ground ; the Members 111. Guizot—What do call the Spanish question ? We think
of Parliament who 3111-Tort time Cabinet recornize the danger of an it was very preeer to ...dye that question witheut an intervention in
act signed by four ; the Ambassadors recognise that in estranging Spain, and without war ; but what had the Cabinet of the 15th of
themselves front France, it would be difficult to find a means of April to do with the Spanish question P
action." Do you know what the Ambassadors of Austria and A Deputy exclaimed, Ancona—(Great agitation.)
Prussia said ? They not only went so far as to lead us to hope M. Guizot—What do you call the Belgian question P
for Egypt hereditarily, but for Egypt and Syria hereditarily. M. 'M. Thicrs—The solution which you have yourselves blamed._
Guizot said to tire at the enciof April, that whilst the English Mt. (Great tumult.) .
nistry was endeavouring Co isolate us, it might happen that it iwould H. Guizot—it is impossible to make oneself heard in the midst
be itself isolated, both in the Cabinet and in diplomacy.—(Expres. of so much tumult.—(Silence was now restored.) H. Thiers may
sions of surprise and murmurs.) I wish to prove to you only remember that at the period of which Ise speaks I did not open my
one thing, that it I did entertain the idea. of obtaining Egypt and mouth upon the Belgian question, and for a very plain reason—l
Syria hereditarily for the Pacha of Egypt, I was not the only thought the question was justly and reasonably settled by
persons who laboured under the idea, for Si. Guizot, our Annbas- the Treaty of the I mai A ,i " .
.-.- ..pr...— ~ la errupt ion.)
sador in London, partook of this hope, and shared with me what AL Berryer here announced his intention of speaking.
has been called this delusion. H. Thiers read the following ex- AL Guizot—l considered that the Treaty of April 15 bound the
tract from a letter of his to Alexandria, dated April the 17th : Poem's, and received its legitimate execution, and that it was net
" I bear certainly a great interest in the Pacha, only participating a case for war. What Is the Italian question ? I could not think
in the general sentiment of France with regard to hint. But just now, when the Italian question was spoken of as settled by
let not tine Viceroy conceive au erroneous idea of hi; situation, peace, that the evacuation of Ancona was alluded to. Was An-
nor believe it better than it is. France may be tuneful to cone a case for war?—(lnterruption.) [al Thiers made some exela'
him—may defend him from severe exigencies, and gain him mations which could not be distinguished for the noise, and the
some months respite by negotiation. But the Four Powers may President, in severe terms, called for silence.] The evacuation of
end by coalescing to take from him that which he will not eon- Ancona may have been disapproved ; I disapproved of it *elf.
cede. England is obstinate against the Pacha. Russia will re- but it does not follow that it was a question which could be IT-
fuse England nothing. Austria and Prussia follow England and solved only by war. Besides this has no relations to the question
Russia. They will hesitate tang to sign a treaty without France ; now before me. When H. Thiers spoke of the Spanish, Italian,
but they may end by doing so. I know well that the Viceroy, and Belgian questions, he spoke of questions in which the case of
sneak Übe passes the Taurus, is strong in Egypt and Syria against peace or war was never laid down.—(Marks of almost general adhe-
those who would pass. the Taurus against him. But I fear that a sion.)
resolution of the Four Powers, supported by an English fleet, M. Thiers here made some observations inn a very animated way,
might cause an inserrection in Syria. Could the Pacha repress but his wends did not reach us.
it ? Let hitn not believe his mediocre correspondents in Paris. He AL Guizot—We think that in time ensemble of the acts which
can only avoid danger by moderation. lie now refuses to cede have taken place since 1830, and notwithstanding the real and pro.
Adana; he is wrong. He will render every peaceable arrange- found dissidence which may have existed on such or such an act in
meat impossible." It is evident from this that I regarded things particular, the policy which has presided in France over the De_
with a sombre view, and I even excited the impatience of my col. partment for Foreign Affairs was just, reasonable, amid honourable,
leagues by persisting in fears of tine worst, when every despatch pro- and that France has neither to repent of nor to remedy it. There
Inked a solution. Certain negotiations led Al. Guizot to hope that is nothing to be found in it to justify any recommendation for war on
Egypt, and even Syria its hereditary right, might be obtained. In. the present occasion. We must not say to Europe, then, that
stead of that, Lord Palmerston offered the Pachalic of Acre, France has reparations to call for, and vengeance to exercise, and
with the fortrees for life. H. Guizot recommended that no that there is a portion of her policy which she is anxious to efface by
harsh refusal should be given. I followed his advice—did some striking acts. We think that the peace policy which should
not accept, but left him at liberty to state the refusal govern France, should be similar to that which has been adopted
when end how he liked. The Turkish envoy then arrived since 1830, and we have reasons for preserving it, as it was when
in London, and gave new animation to the affair. Certain ne- Poland or Italy were in question. I shall not now enter fully upon
gotiations gave hope of Syria for life being granted. M. my subject. To morrow I will endeavour to go through the history
Guizot wrote on the lath and on the eeta of June, that they hoped of the negotiations, and will examine the picture which AL Thiers
to bring Lord Palmerston to make these proposals. What could I hes presented to you. I shall, in all probability, frequently come
do? I could not accept them till I knew whether Lord Palmerston in collision with him. Yes, the question is, indeed, resolved with
Would make thesis, or whether the Pacha would accept them. 'bra- us as to the desire for the maintenance of peace, and our
him Wee much irritated; he threatened to cross the Talents, and if belief that it will be maintainrd.—(lnterruption.) We believe in
France had ateeded to the proposition of giving Syria for life only to the maintenance of peace; we believe that it is practicable with
the Pasha, she mug of necessity have taken part in measures of honour and security for France. I say that the question was re.
compulsion. What did 1 now say to M. Guizot ? Nothing which solved in another sense by the Cabinet, the maintenance of peace
could appear like a rejection. I consulted the Cabinet, and sent to was not possible with the honour and dignity of France. Ido not
AIM:m(11'1a to endeavour to induce the Viceroy to accede to this reproach that Cabinet with having entertained this opinion, and
last engageosent. The Pacha bad always said, that if Khosrew, his having armed under this persuasion ; I think, however, that it was
old enemy, were to be dismissed. he would throw himself into the •in error, and that its policy was a bad one.
arms of the Sultan, affil restore the fleet. When M. Cocitekt went AL Thiers—You served it, and ought to have said so sooner.
to him to announce that Roshrew was dismissed, he threw himself AL Guizot—Do you know what happened when the treaty of the
on the neck of the Consul, and said, " I will now place myself in the 15th of July was signed P There was a possible chance, a possible
hands of my master, and restore the fleet." When this newsarrived, germ of war in Europe. We have in the bosom of France certain
I sent for al. Perier, I was afraid the :P. cha would not keep his pro- passions.
mise, and said to M. Perier—" Go to Alexandria, anti tell the Several persons on the left exc'aitnee—" Ali ; we are coming
Facile that if he does not give up the fleet after having promised it, to it."
Europe will turn against him. When it was reported in London The President—Thesel interruptions are Intolerable. The Ali.
d not be thus interrupted.
that the fleet had been restored, it was thought that it had been the nisitier
tesuhioinuot We have in our bosom passions, which, wherever
work of France, and that an accommodation had taken place tar.i
they perceive a chance for war, endeavour to bring it into operation.
tween the Patera and the Sultan. England, by her excessive
meads, was about to oppose this prospect of arrangement, and'e You have been told that the party of the 15th of July was the re.
M. Guizot wrote ffe me that our
;t eweon only one vival of the Holy Alliance, a coalition against France, and an in-
that could be acknowlereed. 'We gave advice; wished suit to thecountry. Well, then, in this position), the duty of the
for a direct arrangement; title was all; we did not deny time Government was. to resist suoh attempts, to enlighten the country,
fthe factious whichwouldmislead it. It
that the late Cabinet undertook this task with
promise of giving back the flat. Amid what -has bet n the and to preserve it imn
conduct adopted with regard to us I,' Has it had the same frankd.;
sduoffiescnicont:tponpeeragryt;oanuds
ness ? Has it had the same candour ? Ton know what has passed, that weareboundat this moment to repress fac-
tion and denounce it —( Approbation.) This, Gentlemen, was the mo.
Gentlemen—an attempt was made to push alt Syria '. o insurrec.
Live for the formation of the present Cabinet. It was not formed
tion. Do you with to know why, after having' agreed to the con--s
for the maintenance of peace a tont prix. Such a word is shameful
ditions of the Treaty, the signing of it was hid teens its ? It w
in order to get ready svhat has since been done. 'The Treaty
to utter and shameful to hear. Who has a right to attribute ;to us
wa
kept secret from u', in order that commands might boessued. Anh s.
csuicbhinaetdessiraein?ol
battles
uesohuatisi,rylil7 tllivehcohi
miral Stopford had received orders suddenly to quit the Bay of
hate‘ r'ieht to call themselves better patriots than we arc.
inef otthitsbeChPareinsbeenrt
Naples before the Treaty was signed. This was a fault, on impor.ma amongst
rnghsits
Presiden I beg to inform those Members who indulge in
tart fault. The Treaty was signed. It has been said iliac I wished
TheLaTa'schereau—We did not go to Ghent!
to exaggerate the meaning and intentions of it, in order to hurry
such improper and unparliamentary interruptions, that I shall be
my country into a war. But did I inform you that orders had
Guizot continued-1 thank the Hon. Member who has just
been issued before the Treaty was signed ? No, I kept this fact compelled to call them immediately to order.
England, because she had
back. Of what am I accused then?
which I expected for some time. There has been
an interest in the Mediterranean, has abandoned in a single day intAeri.ruGp‘t.ed me, but whom Ido not know. I thank him for this
heaped on me for a sufficiently long time; I
calumny and insult
the alliance of ten years' standing; but this has not been the interruption, .
work of the nation; it has been the work of a single man, hap.
pity for the country ; anti it is not I only by whom thin truth has will
at length reply to it. Yes, I was at Ghent ; yes, I was there,
been felt—all France has felt it.—(Yes, yes; approbation.) In this but not on the morrow of the 20th March, not in the suite of
affair, however, I am accused of having been the person to give * Louis XVIII , not as an emigrant, not for the purpose of quitting
the provocation. Men of honour and respectability have come my country ; the day after the 20th March I returned to the Sor.
to me and said, " Sustain the dignity and honour of France! Sus. bonne, nnel, inthus
order, to resume the modest rank which I had occupied,
gave proof that as a good citizen I wished to
tain it even to the end:"--SVery good, very good !) And yet, and r
now at the present day, pets& are almost ashamed of the noble obey the laws of my country; but when it was evident to
sentiments with which they were previously animated. Oh,
Gentlemen, this is deplorable. because sentiments such as pevaey would man of sense that peace was impossible with Buona.
rte; when it was evident for us that the House of Bourbon
return into France—(Munnurs ; interruption front the
those do honour to time men Mee profess them, and do honour
Lelt)—then 1 went to Ghent ; I went there, gentlemen, snot from
to the country.—(Approbation.) „Everybody knew the poosiftitohne,
personal interest, but to carry to King Louis XVIII. useful truths,
situation in which the country was placed. W
the dangers, the isolated Rate, in fact the importance
forh
eof
mb the r
me to I to make him understand in the name of the true Constitutional par.
lower my head ? for me as a Frenctnetan ias asPresident
it :
ty in France, that his Government had, in 1814, committed faults,
Council? and this, too, after the approbetirni which 0
I that it was impossible to recommence, and to tell him, in fine, that
thee Chamber
'm
myself from I only those which were secured by the charter, but new liberties
had given to the national policy ? If I had done s° Gentlemen, llf he reappeared on the throne of France, there were liberties, not
I should have blushed. I should have witihdrawli
tiled myself I which he most grant to the country ; that with regard to new in-
public business, and I should not again have
dol;."'"erhe Cabinet terests, he must adopt a line of conduct which would inspire more
before you.—(Bravo, bravo.) What did we
sions, which the first restoration had raised, and that he had round
resolved to adopt a plan of aellaing the coitntrY in
.a serious and security, which would dispel all the suspicions, and all the pas.
official manner—which should strike awe into foreign
remove,!, This, Gentle-
there- men, is what I then said, in the name and for the interest of con-
of arming in reality—because a false den tonstratiloonKien•ould not him influential Ministers, who must be r
deceive anybody in Europe. r proposed to 0 6,
i.
fore, to arm not 400,000 men, but 630.,000
This the new reign the consolidation
men of the line, i stitutional royalty, and to uniteto tl
was what we I and development of the Charter.—(A voice from the Left here
and 300,000 of mobilized liatioral Guards.
and that not exclaimed " France was fighting during that time," when nume's
rout voices in the Chamber cried out, " Silence, sience."
did. Besides this, I gave fortific anions to Paris i
his coon.
as a complaisant courtier, but as
When we shall AL Guizot--It was not I who raised this incident, but lfeil
try and convinced of the inmoirts, rice of it-
ou. So much 1
; such an important act of my life. DU
bound to seize on it with eagerness,'state the truth on
in order to
a citizen devoted to
come to discuss this point I dui; prove thi abroad 0 ,
This was •
for home affairs. And what 414 we do
the Taurus ; cover plishing it I did es of it.
what I said to the Pacha :—Do' as at pass
d d the mediation • not foresee all the possible consequences
Boyer
Collard, from his place, said, " All that M. Guizot has
well St. Jean d'Acre and Alexarin ria;
era"
negotiation last out, . Al.'
the neitot. just stated is perfectly true."
H. Guizot continued—Whenever
of France; and if you can make
till Spring, I believe,
and whenever I shall
you believe that in &mom-
if you can :prolong it
a will do so with advan. ' •
country, if it is legitimate,
Ranee will then, at the
believe, that an act may be useful to my ow_
head of all her forces, ileaeSiate for you, 'Thom, such was my ob.
tile. Such was my idea, such were p -' " h.,1 +.l,
..we -on my future Battey.
Jock And be persuaded, gamma, it France ........en pert in sisals it, whateya mfiumice it may eXe......-
, nd has nothing reprehensible in it, I shall not hesitate to accom.