The Sun.
London, England, 1840-04-08 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, APRIL 8, 1840

as the Circuits were not concluded, it was impossible to
have the opinions of the Judges before Monday next.
Lord WYNFO RD thought it would be better to have
the opinion of the Judges on the case. He thought it
might even be argued by Counsel.
Lord MELBOURNE—I never heard of such a thing
Lord WYNFORD—There is a case in point, the usury
case in India. He could not imagine that the words
" Protestant clergy" could have any other meaning than
" the clergy of the Church of England," and he never
doubted but that the Clergy Reserves were expressly for
the clergy of the Church of England.
The Earl of HADDINGTON said he should like to
have the opinion of the Judges, to see whether the Church
of Scotland was entitled to a part of the Clergy Reserves
or not, and he should, therefore, suggest after the word
" ordination" the insertion of the words " or the Estab-
lished Church of Scotland."
The Bishop of EXETER said he should have no ob-
jection to it.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH then said he trusted their
Lordships would not put the first question, as it was
not a question of law, but one of expediency. It rested
with the Ministers of the Crown to consult with their legal
advisers as to whether the Crown should give the Royal
assent to the measure or not. He (Lord Ellenborough)
was of opinion that the Church of Scotland in Upper Ca-
nada should be provided for from the public funds, and he
knew of no other funds but the clergy reserves. He
thought it was impossible to attempt to maintain the as-
cendancy of the Church of England in the colonies.
The Bishop of LONDON had listened with feelings of
unmitigated pain to what had fallen from the Noble Lord who
had just sat down. He understood that it was that Noble
Lord's conviction that it was impossible for the Legislature
to maintain the Established Church in that country, and
that such a state of things ought not to exist. Now he
begged to remind their Lordships that that idea had been
for some time prevalent in Ireland, and he doubted not
but that it would seen be attempted to be introduced in
some parts of this kingdom. He begged of their Lord.
I ships to consider, before they allowed themselves to be the
instruments of propagating such doctrines.
The Earl of RIPON was in favour of the motion.
Lord ASHBURTON objected to the first question as
useless. As to the others, he thought they would be asking
the opinion of the judges on subjects with which they could
have no acquaintance.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE confessed that he had
always understood the word Protestant to mean something
beyond the Church of England. That was evident from
the Act of 31 Geo. 111., for in some clauses the Church
of England was mentioned, and in others the word Pro-
testant was mentioned, evidently denoting a difference.
He trusted the Right Reverend Prelate would withdraw
the third question, or put it an abstract form, for the
charter, he was certain, did not exist.
The Bishop of EXETER, in reply, said, that be had
been informed by individuals who had acted under that
charter that the charter did exist.
The House then divided, when the numbers were—
For the motion 57
Against it 4O
Majority for the motion
Their Lordships then went into Committee on the
PRINTED PAPERS BILL,
when Lord SHAFTESBURY informed the House that I
Counsel were in attendance to be heard on the Bill, and
Mr. Platt having been called to the bar, stated that he
had only received his instructions at three o'clock ; and
from that time till five be was preparing himself, but cer-
tainly he was not prepared to advocate his clients' cause.
Lord KENYON said that he had gone to Newgtae that
morning, and informed Mr. Howard and Mr. Siockdale
that if they wished to be heard they must instruct Counsel
that evening, he had little doubt from the known abilities
of the Learned Counsel that he would be able to address
their Lordships with justice to himself and his clients.
he LORD CHANCELLOR said that Mr. Howard
and Mr. Stockdale knew of the House going into Com-
tnittee that evening, and it was not the Counsel's fault that
he was not prepared, but that of his clients, and they must

.uffer ior it:
The Duke of WELLINGTON said if they were to
hem. Counsel why not hear them in earnest, and that was
when the Counsel were prepared. He should suggest that
the House should go into Committee on Thursday and hear
the Report on Friday.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said there was no ob-
jection to that course.
The Hous:i having resumed, and the Chairman having
rcpurted progress and obtained leave to sit again, the House
adjourned at half past Ten.

do so.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY thought it ex•
treinely important that tiny should know what the intei:-
liens of the Nol,le Viscount were.
Viscount MELBOURNE said that it was not his in-
to ration to press the 1101 f°; ward hastily.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY trusted that the
Noble Viscaunt would postpone the Bill till after Easter.
Lord Melbourne mode no reply.
The Earl of GALWAY presented a petition from
some tewn in Seetheld praying for a settlement of these
rights with regard to the presentation of ministers.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE presented a petition
from Hull against the Corporation (Ireland) Bill.
CLERGY RESERVES (CANADA).
The Bishop of EX ET ER. then proceeded to make 1.-;s
motion that the Judges should p-oeounce an oainion upc,o
he legality of the manner in which the Ciergy Res •rvea
had been dealt with by he Legislature of Upper Canada.
He regretted the absence of a Noble Lord (Lord Lynd- I
toarsi), who was moat fitting to pronounce an opinion on I
the subject. The Right Rev. Prelate then went on to
trace the way in which the Clergy Reserves bad always I
been dealt with up to the present time. He (the Bishop
of Exeter) ventured to assert that the effect of the union
between Scotland and England was that the law of Eng-
land was the imperial law of the United Kingdom, and that
the laW of Scotland, endured only within the limits of
Scotland ; and Lord Redesdale laid down that as the
constitutional doctrine. With regard to property—il an
individual died intestate, not having been domiciled either
in England or Scotland, having returned from one of our
Colonies, the law of England applied to that case, and
the case of Dr. Munro was so decided. With regard to
marriage also, the law of England applied in our colonies,
a Scotch Presbyterian clergyman was not recognised by
the law of England because he was not an ordained clergy-
. men. By the 33d of George 111 , and the 38th of Geo.
111., it was clearly shown that the Church of England
was only recognised by law in Upper Canada. Now, he
adiniticd that the Church of Scotland was an established
Church, hut only of Scotland. He denied that it was
of the United Empire. It was limited by the Union.
By the great constitutional act of 24th Henry VIII., it
was declared that the jurisdiction spiritual and temporal,
was inalienable in the Crown of England. And by the
Act of Supremacy the Church of Rome could not be
the Established Church in Upper Canada, because it de-
nied the supremacy of the brown of England ; and for
the same reason it was, that the Church of Scotland
could not be the Established Church in that country.
Now, by the 31st George 111., chap. 31, there was a per-
manent maintenance for the Protestant Clergy, and an
appropriation of lands, and no power was given by any
subsequent Act to the Colonial Legislature over such ap-
propriation. But this Bill before them directed the sales
of the Clergy Reserves, and the application of the pro-
ceeds, and the 31st of George 111. contemplated a power
of sale. Ha ventured to assert that nothing but an Act of
the Imperial Parliament could release the Crown from the
trust that was imposed on it, by holding the Clergy Re-
serves. He had heard by papers that he had just received
from Canada, that a Roman Catholic member of the Le-
gislature of Upper Canada, on the most conscientious mo-
tives, had entered his protest against the present Bill.
The Right Reverend Prelate then concluded by moving
that the opinion of the Judges be taken on the following
questions :-
1. Whether the words, " a Protestant Clergy," in the 31st
Geo. 111., ch. 31, (sec. 35 to 42), include any other than
the Clergy of the Church of England, and Protestant Bishops,
and Priests, and Deacons, who have received episcopal. ordi-
nation ?
And if any other, what other?
`2. Whether the effect of the 41st section of the 31st Geo.
111., oh. 31, be not entirely prospective, giving power to the
Legislative Council anti Assembly of either of the Provinces
of Upper and Lower Canada, as to future allotments and ap-
propriations ; or whether it can be extended to affect lands
which have been already allotted and appropriated under for-
mer grants?
3. Whether there being a Corporation legally established for
the management of the lands so allotted and appropriated, isueli
Council and Assembly have power to apply the rents and pro-
fits, arising from the lands already so allotted and appropriated,
to any other use or purpose whatever than the maintenance
and support of a Protestant Clergy?
4. Whether in the Bill of the Legislature of Upper Canada,
now lying on the table of this House, intituled " An Act for the
Sale of the Clergy Reserves, and for the Distribution of the
Proceeds thereof," these powers, or either of them, hare been
validly exercised?
Lord MELBOURNE then rose, and begged leave to
say, with regardover to the charge that had been brought
aeainst the Gnment, that he (Lord Melbourne) was
not influenced by any partiality towards Dissenters, or by
any dislike to the Church of England. His feelings were
quite the contrary, and quite of a different_ character.
Now, he begged " Prelate to ask, as the Right Rev.rel ate had
stated so authoritatively that the word Protestant"
meant " the Church of England,"h—ofheEgbnegiagned, dtwohayskt,bitf,
Protestant clergy meant the
Why had they not said
Legislature had not said
so?
Church of Englanlelvoards and
,S,cpotrloatnedst?anatodclehregtyh,,ewugehret itcawrea-s
probable that the
t the
Christians, purpose
andof
ctoorneparteisnidngi:as
fully
much chosen
larger denominationa n d selected
flog
o
pthroavtisßionnl,s
which
nhite
hmaadnhnoceroirs,
owoltilfcrhomit
uhapdpobreecnaeoxatdean.dedTbhye
bCuhtubr cyhthoaf t oEngland
c h wo neverEngld. called
af
3
word Protestant
The
was a very late word in all ecclesiastical histories ;
it g
an by any other name
it was not in the Thirty-nine Articles—he believed wa
not. Nor was it in the Canons : he had not
read them all, but he believed he had gone half
through them. The Act of Uniformity called it the
Church of England, and he should say no Act of Parlia-
ment used the word Protestant unless it meant Dissenters
—unless it coupled the Dissenters, or inferred dissent.
The word Protestant was selected, he thought, in order
that the distribution might be made among the different
religious sects prevalent in the country. As regarded the
questions proposed to be referred to the Judges, he saw no
reason—no occasion for pursuing such a course. The
course was liable to inconvenience, and not called for on
the present occasion. The words were clear and plain,
freed from all legal technicality, aryl open to plain inference.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said the question was,
were they to take the opinion of the Judges on a case con-
• "nine which the Right Reverend Prelate bad stated one
ion, and the -Noble Viscount another totally opposite?
glow •'n'
N ',e thoue,ht that they did require the opinion of a
ty whether that House should exercise the power
toTardcidpractssl.eg he,. Majesty, praying her Majesty to wi'hhold
ct Is, that 2') l. s 0 certainly support the
um the Act. H• di uld
BAD 1,1 m E s
........., ___ e .=,s-___—__......,,,,......
f h plain fa •• •
would give content to the naturally eis .
are din: 0-..• t . hileeort"o3n3etnitt. :;r:i.. ail.Gi Might
11, Re. e.
inclinedl3relate to agree with the Right
times are productive of good to those discontented rap
id° tiln°„ Lord AB ..
well, by acting in accordance with the'‘dhicr)tates of • 'et. ,Ile thought, however, it could never he
:at ti,is. Rev. Prelate.
A c,,t,had a retrospective power of un-
to dO
truth.— TV!rze id: Advertiser. That Act referred to appropria_
ALTERATION OF Du -VIZ.—We under
1
in the article of gloves which base been
supplied j tic
i, IN c._? .o ; the American market, an alteration of the e eau .
doing the i i _
..
lders ,taso hat tions alrennv m. ,
rsropriatio ,e.
future
, octe„.n I, _
t .-1-1- \ The LOUD a-,
ii.orn 1 ...thi contended that
, 1 et to appropriations.
r'H AN CE LL OR thought it eas
so the Colonial Legislate:a;
:ea. •e•eii ordered ; all t how havin, silk 1 • , Coot
ut 0.. clearly intenas - .
i a entang , ~..
~, i !,:qten, on, aro hereafter to he cocsidcreol ' . -;:' '",e wri ..;'t i the power of altering . . rialon. Hewas et epi.
reserve . ~• --, -
s,s Ling, at;l aro t,: ,-;:,y a duty f; f' iroin •:n to 50, -q
- "`..Y• mac, 'a tilon that the fir ques„eteu wil7Ptoo much in the shape a
ej li,i'eti` With 1;1,111 Wi'l!S er nelli the putt eezu• ;al .1, a leading, que9tion. Id have no knowledge er
, -,.. i 0 ~,, , . , India-ri.bh,„ , facts of which the Judges cell
As to third question, it ii.volyed
I,' tt, i:e adldi,o, at tee sea nose ry 'Any of irr.. ---,:;rlere,i as e;itirely co. -
were bel..•re this rep to„tjon._ Tel irs to . nellatil":l'"'. These; low til
he
can
Jedees in ton in aed
e eies 34,r , 1 racy to _orm. _.icic w:r:e on.y six ' ' r-,
_------------

ter

110 USE OF COMMONS, APRIL 7.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at five minutes before,
Four o'clock.
Mr. BAILEY, the now Member for Inverness, was in-
troduced by Captain Gordon and Mr. Mg Kenzie, and took

- .
the oaths at the table.
A clerk from the office of the Poor-law Commissioner:
brought ep certain returns.
Oa the motion of Sir GEORGE STRICKLAND.
the Bra,kston Ash Court of Requests Bill was read a third

k

.ei Page, wlio had been a clerk to Mr. Dansey a solicitor.
anvas,“l-him ftr Mr. Clive, but witness did not like
nd altlmugh hecdered to st,lnti neutral, Mr. D.
,int he discharged him. Mr. Dane/
r. Clive, presided at meetings of his
and ed.her nouiiin-.!ed or seconded the nomination of

time and passed.
Oa the motion of Mr. ALSTON, the Bedford, Wo-
burn, and Leighton Bussard Road Bill was read a secncl

L.:t would not .to,

$11:1% at
frtl•uc

an a gent l'or

and canvassed witli
Me I lister' au apothecary was the: called to prove that
C,rlffiths, Llo,id and Danny, acted as and
a:;".,n,,xte:lged-,t4ewseives to be assents for Mr. Clive, in that
jiesenee, upon the occasion of settling as to
char of polling places t • at would be necessary for the election.
ilet is y,suleil in Lticilow, and used to write for
the it-or-cc:lu ,Thurnat, the Salopian Journal, the Ten Towns'
lfe atic;• , anti the IlexefordJournal. Ills pol.tics were Con-
ser v&!ive, and he was fr2quently engaged to unite articles for
thee, papers it the Clive interest. In 1836 he got up a Con-
s,rv.,tive Institution in Ludlow. Before the last election he
was riving in Shrewsbury. On tho Saturday before the elec-
tion he was sent for to come ovt'r to Ludlow. The messenger
teas Ffail, a hair-dresser of Ludlow. Witness went over next
day along with Cook the voter. When he got to Ludlow he
werit to Denham House, and there saw Messrs. Bird. Williams,
and tsh son, L. Clark and Lloyd, solicitors, and Mr. W. Holmes,
the Member of Parliament. The solicitors generally acted
as og,,ncs for the Clive interest on former elections. They
'Nene very instrumental in getting up the Conservative Asso-

time.
On the motion of Mr. DENISTOUN, the Calton
of Glasgow Police BM was read a third time and passed.
On the motion of Mr. BERNAL, the Stroud Church
Bill was read a second time.
On the motion of Mr. HANDLEY, the Farmer's and
General Fire and Life Assurance Company Bill was read
a second time.
1 Mr. MACKENZIE moved that Mr. Houston be added
to the Committee on the Clyde Navigation Bill ; the orris-
; sion of his name, in the first instance, having been caused
by his accidentally late arrival on the occasion when the
Committee was nominated.
Mr. GREENE opposed the application as inconsistent
with the due observance of the Standing Orders.
Sir G. GREY coincided with the objection.
Mr. MACKENZIE contended that it was quite con-
sistent with the Standing Orders that the House should
add a new name to a Committee after its original nomina.
tion. The Bill affected the interests of Mr. Hous-
ton's constituents to a very considerable extent,
and his local knowledge would be of infinite assistance to
the Committee in examining the details of the Bill.
Mr. CAMPBELL (of Argyleshire) opposed the mo-
tion. If the plea of the Hon. Member's coastituents,
being interested in the Bill, was admitted in favour of the
departure from the Standing Orders, the same plea might
be alleged in favour of nominating upon the Committee
any other Member for any part of Scotland or Ireland, or
even of England, as all were interested in the navigation of
the Clyde.—( Hear.)
Mr. ESTCOURT and Lord G. SOMERSET also
opposed the motion, which was ultimately negatived.
EDINBURGH AND GLASGOW RAILWAY
BILL.
..

elation.
By Mr. CoensußN—Had you any communication with
Lord Clive respecting that Association, or with those gentle-
men, as his representatives?
Mr. Sergeant MELIEWET:SER objected to the question. Lord
Clive was no party before the Committee.
After the Committee had deliberated for near an hour,
Parties were recalled, and informed by the Chair-
scan that the Committee had determined that the
question could not be put, and he wee requested at the
same time to inquire of Sir. Sergeant Merewether whether he
could save the time of the Committee by admitting the agency
of arty of the parties named.
Mr. Sergeant MERRNVETHEr. was not instructed to do so,
but he would make inquiries on the subject, and inform the
Committee to-morrow morning.
Lord Howiex referred the Learned Counsel to the evidence
given hy his own witnesses upon the agency of Mr. Coppock—
, that showed and proved agency on the part of some of the
gentlemen named.
Mr. RE-ets was then recalled, and said he considered
that Mr. William Holmes had the whole management
of the election. On the Monday he saw Mr. Holmes,
\and in the hearing of Mr. Clive, that gentleman spoke
something of briber). Mr. Holmes was upon the
1
Committee in Denham-house; so also was witness. All the
solicitors in the Clive interest referred all matters to Mr.
I Holmes, and he acted generally as a Committee-man in the pre-
' sense of Mr. Clive.
Mr. COCKBURN submitted that he had a right to ask as to any
acts done by Mr. Holmes.
Mr. Sergeant MEREWETHEM would like to ask a few ques-
tions tiest. Witness thought himself a committee-man, but
,I there was no positive appointment. Knew that there
seas a Committee, but he was not cognizant of any appoint-
ments until the Monday previous to the nomination-day, when
Mr. Holmes appointed the persons to bring up the voters.
There was•no permanent Chairman appointed—no secre Lary, nor
was it stated on the door that such-and-such a room was a
Committee-room. He knew that there was a Committee, be-
-Icause it was always considered that the solicitors wilt) sup-
ported the Clive interest formed a Committee. Witness
acted as secretary to the Committee formed at the Blue Esau—
en the door there it was stated to be the committee-room. lie
took the office of secretary at the request of the meeting. He
took minutes, which he afterwards took to Denham alc use.
That committee-room was quite a blind.
Re-examined.—The Blue Bear committee was not a gent rral
committee—it met merely for the purpose of making arra ,
ug-
ments for bringing up voters. He found a body existing at
Denham House, who performed all the duties which usua ily
devolved upon a Committee. On the Monday he was sent
for to the private room in Denham House, and had an intervie w
with Mr. Holmes in the presence of Mr. Clive. Mr. Holm es
asked hint if he thought he could secure the vote of Mr. .Phillii, s
Witness said he thought he could ; and he asked Mr. .tioln les wh at
was the sum to be given. Mr. H. asked how much a *mild be le s-
quired. Witness said the voter would not vote with tht t CI ulserval,-
tvviietnpe.ar:tibaubt
cheipaht be out of the way for a con ,sideration.
wouldoffer .30/. and Mr. H. said, d; Ira so. Fr! 4 went to the voter, but he would not accept tlte n .toney, and I
would vote with the Radical
arty. On the same tact anion Mr.
ki. said Mr. Williams had spoken of his friend W; Isle. Mr.
upon the subject.
1 Williams had spoken to hun
Mr. CocKswa:s—State whatupo thatb conversation wa s.
dir. Sergeant M EitEwvr u za to the questi an. What
I had taken place was not in the presenceejeet:oudf Mr. Clive— it was not
tnoat
bIT. Wil Gams and
t on oath, nor was any person present
Co
mnir.ltetceeeibv,y
the witness. Such conversations could
31r. COCKBIR.N would not insult the
their time in arguing so e!ear a point.
The Committee, without clearing the room, decided!l hat the
question might be put.
Mr. Revis was recalled. Mr. Williams showed him a
paper
on winch were the names of a great number of voters.
Air. Sergeant M E It E WETIIE R— The paper must be prod +iced.
Witness—He said, referring to the paper, Wade and P 1 ;Mips
are friends of yours—will you secure their votes? Mr. H. Ames
at Denham House referred to that conversation, and salt Mr.
Phillips's vote was to be secured. On the day of polling, Mr.
Holmes, in Mr. R. H. Clive's presence, at the Committee.; oom
in the Blue Boar, had a conversation with witness.
Mr. COCKBURN proposed to ask what that conversation, vas
Mr. Sergeant 3IEREWETHER objected to the quest ion, be-
muse the candicap, Mr. H. Clive, was not present, . nor had
it been establishhat Mr. Holmes was an agent for It' ir. Cl ive•
Mr. COCKBURN would not detain the Committee furt her
than to beg the Committee to remember all the ‘ ;ogent • and
conclusive argu•net, nit
ts of his Learned Friends, Mr - Set ,i.,
Merewether iii4i.d. Mr. Austin in their opening, as to ui.,:..„,1--I.ie‘
and treating, against Mr. AlCock. What was saa ea
goooe must be sauce for the gander—(Laughter)— ..cela st was
law for the parson must be law fur the clerk.
that that which m as law f r the sergeant withilheisui a 5111: IVgdort,t-Z1 I
stuff one.—(Laughte r.)
should he law also for tri
recapitulating the evidenee,eh
oriet anys After
contended that there never te, as
a clearer case of agency pro
,eision of thCeaonCrat:
the Learned Gentleman's speech
....,_;journed. intet; ;ed.
that the
peaker was at prayers;
fore, remains ove.:,rtill t............_,......0-morrew.—A,l Comps; Use, there

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL rose " to call the
attention of the House to.the petition (presented 6th
April), for leave to bring in a Bill for the Edinburgh and
Glasgow Railway." Ihe Hon. and Learned Gentleman
proceeded to state the circumstances under which he was
bringing forward his motion. The undertaking to which
the motion referred was one which had been commenced
for the purpose of establishing a communication between
Edinburgh and Glasgow. and was one of great importance.
'rhe undertaking was a bona fide one, but the Bill brought
in on the subject was introduced as a third class one, while
it should have been introduced as one of the second claps.
The Bill had been thrown out on this technical objection,
which he now proposed to remedy.
The SPEAKER here intimated that the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman should for a moment defer his motion.
TOTNES ELECTION.
Mr. ORD then brought up a report of the Members
who had been chosen to serve on the Totnes Election
Committee. The Members were as follows :—Lord
Mahon, G. B. East, the Hon. C. Langdale, G. R.
Philips, Tuffnell, Captain Jones, and the Hon. R.
Clive.

CAMBRIDGE ELECTION.
Mr. ORD then brought up a report of the Mernfors
who bad been chosen to serve on the Cambridge Election
Committee. The Members were as follows : - Divett,
Sir J. Walsh, H. Compton, J. E. Sutherland, E. Pro-
theroe, Sir G. Somerville, and Sir C. Lemon.
Mr. Thomas Hamilton, medical attendant of Mr. Su-
therland, being called in and examined, stated that the
Hon. Member was too unwell to attend to any regular busi-
ness. He would not be able for three weeks or more to
discharge his duties as a Member of a Committee of
that House. He might have been able to come to the
House to-day, but he would not have been able to enter
into any defence of himself, or make his own excuse.
After a few words from the ATTORNEY-GENERAL and
Mr. STANLEY, who did not think the excuse quite satis-

factory,
Mr. ORD, the nominated Chairman of the Committee,
stated that if the House accepted this excuse, as seemed to
be the case—(Hear, hear)—according to the rules of the
House the Committee was dissolved de facto, and it would
be the duty of the General Committee of Election petitions
to select another Committee from the same panel, and every
Member upon that panel would be required to attend daily
in his place until the Committee was sworn in.
EDINBURGH AND GLASGOW RAILWAY BILL.

wasting

t 0
bTheri
li gi
oa
Bill
to ATTORNEY-GENERALame
namend
the
Edinburgh
thenobur g
h movedan d
forG l a leave
Railway Bill.
Sir GEORGE GREY suggested that the more regu-
lar course would be to present a petition for leave to bring
in a Bill, which petition being referred to the Committee
on private Bills, would give an opportunity of bringing the
merits of the application fairly before that Committee.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL adopted the sugges-
tion of his Right Hon. and Learned Friend, and having
withdrawn the motion, presented a petition from the Edin-
burghand Glasgow Railway Company, for leave to bring
in a Bill.
The petition having been read,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved that it 1Y,7 re-
ferred to the Committee on PriNate Bills.
Mr. FRE SUFI EL D objected to the motion as incon-
sistent with the rules and practice of the House. In the
case of the Ardwick linpro‘ernent Bill, a similar petition
was opposed (as we understood) by the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman
el nteerdi ti
in
consequence
nos lei
tie
ooefogeree
ofa tleman himself (the Attorcxy-General), and was rejected
l was imp rroevj
thebirry,ptohretalnicoen.se,Talitiehopuegthitiol
aonsituhgelepacirtrooi rthsiveitpheotautioans,
intention to deceive the House
'. and though the eircumstaac-.‘s
were different from the present case, the principle was the
same. The reception of such petitions, and the referring
them totbe Committee on Privateßills, would lead to the
re-agitation of questions which had been already settled by
the House.
Sir GEORGE GREY supported the motion, on the
ground that there ought to be some indulgence give,l by
the House which ought not to exclude parties from ill
means of escape from an accidental error, be the merits of
the ease what they :Rigid.
Mr. GREENE. it was agreed that the petition should be
referreds Al I.errl
ao:::ii.ftelho:ne ttCl:ninm6einlio:tvei (cerlil'iolsgn teflPri oar'tilytattlSicei
Electionr Bills.
iGll :
e attendanceL E R
oKf :I; 'rd.
be dispensed with. Committee should

it., ls

--,_- _M,

Mr. WARBURTON was not at all satisfied with the 1 heretofore enjoyed. They stated that they were borne Majesty's Government. I wish to pass lightly over that
medical testimony given with regard to Mr. Sutherland. out in this opinion by the events of 1829. and state that other portion of the case which relates to Lord Napier.
He wished to speak plainly, and the truth appeared to him I they are struck with the contempt exhibited by the Su- I believe him to have been an honest and an upright man,
to be, that though that Hon. Member could not attend a perintendent for the authorities of China, and his and I believe that he executed his instructions to the best
Committee, he would be very well able to vote with his unwarrantable freedom in commenting on the laws of his judgment; but I think he committed some grave in-
party, and attend a division of the House. and institutions of that Empire. (Hear, hear.) discretions. Having sacrificed his life, on that account I
After a few words from Sir CH ARLES DOUGLAS The real and sound principle of the management of our am sure there is that generous feeling implanted in the
and Sir G. GREY, intercourse with China, and of our trade with that country, breasts of Englishmen, and that regard for the feelings of
Sir G. CLERK moved that, for the further information had been laid down with explicit strength and truth in this those who survive him, that no harshness of expression
of the House, Dr. Hamilton should be again called iu and document. Two hundred years of experience and of a po- will be allowed to escape in the course of this debate. I
examined. hey which ended in the most successful manner, bear tea. think, however, without transgressing the rule which I
It was found, however, that Dr. Hamilton was no longer timony to the wisdom of those views. In the same paper_ have prescribed to myself, and which others may be dis-
in attendance. a reference is made to an opinion of a revered and
Noble posed to follow, that I may allude to two or three palpable
Mr. STANLEY wished that the consideration of the Friend of mine, now no more. Application had been errors committed by him. It will be found in page 11,
question should be adjourned till to-morrow. made to Lord William Bentinck by parties who sought that in his first communication with the Chinese autho-
The motion was then withdrawn. for certain I demonstrations against China, and his rifles, he stated that he was charged with political and
Mr. W. STANLEY gave notice that he would in the answer to them was, that it was quite impossible judicial functions. Now, nothing could be more alarming
Committee on the Ecclesiastical Duties and Revenues to doubt that the discontinuance of trade with China would to the Chinese than such an announcement, and when, un-
Bill, move a clause in conformity with the recommendation be one of the greatest calamities which could befal the happily, disputes arose, he exhibited a heat and violence
of the Ecclesiastical Commission of 1835. East India Company and the nation. He added that it regarding the attack upon Canton, and under circum-
Mr. F. MAUL E gave notice that on this day se'nnight, was the bounden duty of the Company to give their best stances which did not justify it.—( Hear, bear.)
he would move for leave to bring in a Bill for the regula- aid to the establishment of so great a source of revenue But passing on from Lord Napier's mission, I now arrive
tion of the trade of chimney sweeping, and commerce to this country. He thought that no at the most important step in these transactions. Here
CHINA. measure of intimidation would be justified by the proceed- was a warning given by the East India Company about
Sir JAMES GRAHAM then rose and said—Mr. ings of the Chinese Government, and that he could not the transfer of trade, and advice given by the Honourable
Speaker, when I consider the magnitude of the subject lend himself, without the sanction of a superior authority, to Baronet the Member for Portsmouth, that there should
e hich I have felt it my duty to bring under the any change in the pacific policy which had been hitherto have been no steps taken, and the mission of Lord Napier
considertion of this House, and when I think of invariably and successfully followed towards China. ending in a complete failure; and then we comhink eto the
the immense immense national interests which are at stake I will net detain the House by reading any more of these traordinary memorandum which we find in,
I t, in page
and when I think of the perilous position in which documents, the publication of which preceded the change 61 in these papers, which is a memorandum addressed by
those are placed at this moment, I confess in our trade with China. I had the honour of being a the Duke of Wellington to his colleagues before quitting
that I shrink from the task which I have imposed on my- servant of the Crown and a colleague of the Noble Lord office in March 1835. It has been the good fortune ofthat
sell—not so much on account of the inability which I feel the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, when the Chinese Trade remarkable man to leave on record that which, after all,
to do justice to the cause, but from an apprehension that Act was introduced. I am, therefore, responsible for will be the foundation of his future fame—the hidden
any inadvertent expression or imprudence of mine every portion of that Act, and I hold myself responsible also springs and secret motives of conduct exposed to the fullest
should place those great national interests in a for the instructions issued by the British Government gaze of his admiring country ; and all those motives will
state of greater jeopardy than they are at present. at that time, as well as for everything which be found to have been pure and worthy of imitation.—
But Sir, I think it impossible, considering the present then took place with reference to Chii.a ; but it is my (Hear, hear.) On this occasion his conduct was remark-
state of our relations with China as evinced in the papers misfortune to differ at present with those who were then able. This is a memorandum clearly intended for the use
laid on the table of the House, that this [louse, though not my colleagues on other grounds. It would be vain to of his colleagues. It was just as he `was on the eve of
invited by the Crown to express any opinion on this sub- dissemble the motives which then induced me to be- leaving office, and was by no means necessary : ordinary
ject could with advantage to the public interest any lieve it politic and necessary to make a change in men would have taken care not to stand corn-
longer delay the expression of their opinions.—(Cheers.) our intercourse with China, and to establish what was con- mitted upon so difficult a question.—( Hear, hear, h ear.)
I therefore conceive lam discharging a public duty when sidered a monopoly. It must, however, be admitted that But the Noble Duke
ofeeling that a great national interests
I bring this question under the notice of the House, and that change was attended with considerable danger. It were at stake—that great and momentous crisis had ar-
that I shall most faithfully discharge it if I give was so felt at the time, and those who bad the rived in our relations with China—did not avail himself of
expression to the feelings and impressions which greatest knowledge and experience of China—of the cha- anY subterfuge, but manfully recorded this memorandum
a careful and attentive consideration of the subject ratter of its people and its trade, expressed in the most at the Foreign-office, thereby showing his successors what
has produced on my mind. I fear I shall not be able to marked and decided manner their dissent from the course was his opinion on the subject—how he was prepared to
command the attention of the House during the length of which Lord Grey's Government adopted at the time. act and to meet difficulties, and giving his successors all
time I must occupy in bringing under their notice the de- I know not if I can refer to any authority on the subject the advantage of his knowledge and advice.—( Hear, hear. )
tails of this great questions But at all events I shall best more entitled to weight and respect than than of Mark how he detects the points and delivers his opinion,
deserve their patient forbearance, if I at once proceed to the Honourable Baronet, the Member for Portsmouth. with that intuitive sense and manly grasp which enables
the subject-matter to which I call' their attention. And, Upon the discussion of the renewal of the East India him to seize the strong points in a case, and deal with them
Sir, in the first place, I would beg to call to the serious Charter, and before the China trade was thrown open, but in the most summary manner. Judging of Lord Napier's
consideration of the House the magnitude of the interests immediately upon its being notified that that trade would failure, he puts his finger on the two defects to which
which are involved in our relations with that country. I be thrown open, Sir George Staunton moved several reso- I have already adverted. The Duke said," It is obvious
am guilty of no exaggeration when I state that lotions, which were put on record as an amendment. that the cause of Lord Napier's failure was an attempt to
one-sixth of the whole united revenue of Great I must say that those resolutions were not treated force upon the Chinese authorities a mode of communica-
Bi itain and India is dependent on our relations with China with so much attention as they deserved.—( Hear, hear.) tion to which they were unaccustomed, and the assump-
and India. In the last year the revenue paid into the Ex- Ido not know whether upon that occasion the Hon Mem- tion of a power hitherto unadmitted. Such an attempt
chequer on account of tea in this country amounted to no ber for Bridport made his usual motion for adjourn- must ever fail, and bring along with it national disgrace."
lees a sum than 3,660,000/. Besides that there are save- ment—( Laughter)—but this Ido know, that one of the Here was the warning. The Noble Duke foresaw the
ral receipts arising from imposts upon other imports from then*Sheriffs of London took the occasion to count out failure of any endeavour to have a direct communication
chat country, making the British revenue derive from her the House, and in consequence Sir George was defeated in with Vice-Royalty. And what is the remedy be sug-
intercourse with China no less a sum annually than his intention on that first occasion of putting those resolu- goats ? He says, " Lord Napier must not go to Canton,
24:00,000/ Then, with respect to India, where our diffie tions upon record. But the Hon. Baronet persevered, and be must not depart from the accustomed mode of commu-
culties are principally financial, I would beg to call to the he moved those resolutions which now stand upon nication." This is the Duke of Wellington's plan for
attention of the House how large a proportion of the the minutes of the House as a memorial of restoring the harmony of our relations with China. Yet
revenue of that country is remitted into China. his sagacity, of his knowledge, and of the up to this day the Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Af-
fairs, rejecting all past experience, disregarding all the
The gross income of India may be stated at wisdom which dictated them.—( Hear, hear) With the
00,000,000/. annually ; and, unless I am mis- permission of the House I will read one or two of those warnings of his predecessors, adhered to the original in-
taken, the income derived from China is no less than resolutions which bear so closely upon the present state of structions to Mr. Elliot to reside at Canton. Up to the
0,000 0001. annually ; and the difficulty of our connection affairs. (The Right Hon. Baronet then read the 6th arid 13th June, 1839, the last despatch of the Noble Lord,
with India being the difficulty of remittance, China has 7th resolutions, which were to the effect that the trade he obstinately adheres to this.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
afforded this remarkable facility in its intercourse with with China would not be carried on without the previous The Duke then proceeded to give some further advice,
India, that year by year, for the last five years. since the 1 sanction of the Imperial Government at Pekin, and that and to point out the fact that by the Order in Council
trade, there has been an annual influx from China into any attempt to appoint a national officer for the one of the Superintendents had the power to hold a Court.
India of specie averaging 1,300,0001. annually, and in the protection of trade must be liable to compromise He says, that according to this mode of proceeding the
last year yielding no less a sum than 1,700,0001. I have the honour and dignity of the Crown, and that any whole plan can be carried into execution without altering
already, I think, related enough to this House to fix its attempt to establish such an office must bo premised the Act of Parliament, that is to say, that he considered
attention to this subject as a most important one, consider- by a successful embassy to Pekin.) The House will the Act as it stood was sufficient to give to the Superin-
ing that, at the present moment, whether at home see that Sir George Staunton states as a previous matter, tendent every control that was necessary, and then he pro-
or in India, our difficulties are principally financial. it t„ must be a primary object to obtain the sanction ceeds to point out the machinery by which it is to be car-
But I should not do justice to my subject if I did not for of the Government at Pekin before establishing any offs- tied out, and then he says, "if the Cabinet should be dis-
one moment ask permission of the House to call attention ter at Canton, and he goes on to recommand that the posed to adopt this plan, I would give immediate dires-
to the peculiar character, the vast importance, and the English should constitute an Admiralty Court at Canton
tions for the draft of the prsposed Order in Council to
great strength of the Chinese empire. Unhappily we for the cognizance and punishment of homicides, &C. To make the necessary alterations of arrangements." Now I
are on the veree of a rupture with that country, and the latter portion of his advice attention was paid in the have it from the very best authority, that within a fortnight
there is nothing less mice than to despise our enemies.— Act which was introduced, but to the former no attention an Order in Council would have passed, giving to the Su-
( Hear, hear.) And it will be well to consider what are whatever %as paid, no attempt to negotiate with the perintendent jurisdiction under the Act over all British
toe resources of the country with which we are about to Government at Pekin was made preliminary to the subjects. The Duke then adds one other piece of advice,
engage in war. Now I must say I think a very general establishment of the Superintendent at Canton. All that he had recommended was discarded; the Order
fallacy prevails in this country respecting China. —( Hear.) Now, Sir, I think it better, as a very considerable portion in Council remained as it stood in 1833. The Duke con-
Our notions of that country generally are derived of this case turns upon one clause in the China Trade Act, eludes his letter with this piece of advice—" I would recom-
fieen the intercourse with a single port, to which alone if the House would pardon me—l fear lam wearying the mend that tillthe trade has taken its regular peaceable course,
I3irtish subjects are admitted; and the public opinion i-i House—(No, no)—I think it would lead them to under- particularly considering what has passed recently, there
formed from intercourse with Canton alor,e. Now, if I stand more clearly what I shall think it my duty to say before should alweys be within the Consul's reach a stout frigate
wished in the plainest manner to illustrate the extent of I sit down if I should read the clause which was inserted and a smaller vessel of war." We shall see how the re-
this error, I would say it is exactly as if a foreigner were according to the recommendation of Sir George Staunton, commendations of the Noble Duke have been carried into
permitted to anchor at the Nore, and after a time to land for the trial of British subjects, even in the waters of effect. lam unwilling to detain the House by detailing
at Wapping, and, when there, placed in close confinement Canton. I may appeal to my Hon. and Learned Friend the circumstances of the case at greater length than is ab-
during his residence, under such circumstances were to the Judge of the Admiralty Court, if this clause was not solutely necessary—(Cheers)—but still, I hope the House
pronounce a deliberate opinion upon the resources, genius, at least a straining beyond the international law. gut will pardon me if, having undertaken to bring this case be-
and character of the British Empire.—( Hear, hear.) Sir, it was under the peculiar circumstances recommended by the House, Igo fully into the grounds on which I bring
I will now just call attention to what is the real truth with Sir G. Staunton, and adopted by Lord Grey's Government. forward this motion—(Cheers)—frankly, fully, and firmly
respect to the Chinese Empire. It is inhabited by three I pray the attention of the House to the very large powers stating to the House the grounds on which it is founded.
hundred and fifty millions of human beings—all which are given by that clause. (The Right Hon. Be. I will now direct the attention of the House to an incidental
directed by the will of one man—all speaking ronet then read the clause, which was to the effect " that point—but a very important one as connected with this
one language—all governed by one code of laws—all pro- it may be lawful to her Majesty, by an Order in Council, question—but, before Ido so, I will call the attention of
ceasing one religion, and all actuated by the same feelings to give to the Superintendents, or any of them, power
thet a
communication House to a memorandum
w ith Pekin;o
of t hhee
sNobleays
thatD uikt Duke
iilil b referencee in
the
of • national . pride and sympathy. They date their over the trade and commerce of her Majesty's
o meanswpowera of theewbiet
hadwith
ga devisedo Governmentvt.ie_w.( c to
ehne for
enteringme hereafter
into t o
communication
origin not by centuries, but by tens of centuries, transmit- subjects in any part of the Chinese dominions, and
ted to them in regular sacceassion, under a patriarchal to make any regulations for the Government of her Ma-
stu I
sit wrpsa.riv neoTtut u
h o r
lose the enjoyment
The
papersiati on
to , but
whichthat
government, without interruption ; and boast of educa- jesty's subjects in their dominions.") Thus, not only were
tion, of printing, of civilization, of arts, and of all the the very largest powers for regulating the trade and corn-
what was required at pre
conveniences and many of the luxuries of life as enjoyed merce of her subjects in the Chinese dominions given
of with
wh t may
w Pekin
by them when Europe was still sunk in barbarism, and to the Superintendent, but it was also enacted have to refer on this subject are so voluminous, their size
when the light of knowledge was obscured in this our that "he shall have power to impose penalties, is so formidable, and their number so immense, that it is
western hemisphere. But not only their numbers—not forfeitures, and imprisonments, and to make such exceedingly difficult to present any condensed view of them
only with regard to that unity which is strength, but I regulations as may be necessary in the manner specified to the House. The volume is a bewildering labyrinth
call the attention of the House to their great means. by the Order in Council, and that it might he without any clue. There is no index—there is no table of
They possess an annual revenue of 60,000,0001. re- lawful to her Majesty in Council to establish Courts of contents, and they are not printed in chronological order,
gularly collected—.they have no debt—they inhabit Jurisdiction in those dominions, or in the ports, harbours, and it is almost impossible to derive a complete knowledge
the largest and fairest portion of Asia, nearly one- and havens thereof, and in the seas within one hundred of the subject from them.—(Cheers.) I was stating the
third of which is in the finest climate, they cal- miles of the Chinese coasts." I think I am not misre- details of that portion of them which relate to the procur-
tivate a most fruitful soil, which is watered by the presenting that clause, when I say that it was not possible ing an admission to Pekin. I know no one, next to the
finest rivers and intersected by a canal 1,200 miles in for any terms to be larger than the terms there employed. Right Honourable Baronet, whose opinion is entitled to
aKc account
gaveonug Lordnt itohim
teai i
o re NapierEEntgmhilpsandero advice, left
without this
an country
autograph
fChina,that
and, he
if h
necessary, length, which is one of the wonders of the world, and in It gave to her Majesty's Council (so long as she chose to greater weight on Chinese affairs than Lord Strathearn,
o should o, r;
every portion of this immense empire there is one uni- exercise it) an arbitary power over her subjects in the and I have his authority for stating that three times
of system—one jealous suspicion of strangers, dominions of China, and on the waters of that empire
beforebe folretteCrhfrinoan:
ed both on the shores of the Yellow Sea and along the limited only to 100 miles from the coast. This brings me
confinesfortuity
of India, and the boundaries of Ava, Tibet, and to Lord Napier's mission, and I beg to state that I hold
no
Nepaul. Surely, then, I may ask the question myself strictly responsible and am not skrioking
lire
whether it is not wiser to trade than to quarrel in the slightest degree from my share in the shall be able, during the course of the debate, to produce
with such a nation as this ?—( Hear, bear, hear.) instructions to Lord Napier. I shall point out to irrefragible proof of the truth of this fact. Mr. Davis,
Would it not be more prudent to conciliate such a people the House the points upon which I think previous who was the successor of Lord Napier, and Sir George
by the arts of peace, than attempt to use them with the warning and subsequent experience proved that those Robinson, who succeeded Mr. Davis, both in the strongest
cruelties of war ?—( Hear.) There is one remarkable instructions were wrong. One part of the instruc- manner urged the absolute necessity of some communica-
characteristic of this people, to which I have already tions was defective, but the remainder was well tion with the Imperial Government. For five years, not
alluded. Their extreme jealousy and suspicion of stran- adapted to meet the circumstances of the case. The clause a trace of an answer was to be found to the Report pre-
gers—this is their general policy ; and as to Great Bri- in the instructions which I think erroneous, was the order
M i'is
taenrys
saiurged
that
upontthheer
there
considerationwhim.e re
neprtlwciraooeawvnrrniiseslttloi
ownanwnth:Lhaodi
acneownhtrsodi
dpnhri
rdagaNtsedGhs
order given
tepeoobei ni
Napier's
dterget the
been
soiled by him.—(" Hear, hear," from the Opposition.)
lain, it is with more than ordinary caution maintained. I in page 2of the printed papers,it is this : "In execution of There was no communication from him except p. 258, in
indi
dwnhoi
tc which
eteh eN
their o bwl ea
yw Lordith says that
sufficienther clearness MajMaj es Majesty's s
justify
could glance for one moment at a natural cause of that the said commission you will take up your residence in the
jealousy. They have only to look across the Himalaya, port of Canton, in the dominions of the Emperor of
et oourota
outwarde, , n
gad oudm
their
in
a.
and they see Hindostan prostrate at the feet of Great China ; and you will discharge the several duties confided proceedings on their part.—( Hear, hear.) That was the
Britain.—(Hear, hear.) They are not so ignorant to you by the said Commission and Orders in Council re- only answer given by the Noble Lord in the course of five
as not to be perfectly aware of the policy spectively at Canton aforesaid," &c.—(Hear, hear.)
that led to this conquest. Hardly a century is past since The House would perceive that these orders were snot
h years,erstrenuously
points. notwithstanding
our empire, by small beginnings, arose ; and how did it peremptory, and that there had been no pre-
Wellingtoneafoundvnetroyn points,thingiobtf uirttne
remained
ei
impossible
ni
sneseani
nibenhtleeei sdiothnoi arise ? It arose under the pretence of trade and the sem- vious communication to the Court of Pekin.
etoetfhe
instructions. These errors had been pointed out
blance of commerce. Scarcely a century has elapsed since The House observes that nothing was said in his instruc-
blywisthheto comeDek
our first factory was established in that country. We be- tionc with respect to a passport on the spot, but the order
channel
waters.
China.
nstructions, o f
If,
communication.hnever
therefore,
eet.failed
eipaidlfeo dre itnh
experience
gun by building a warehouse ;we surrounded it with walls; to Lord Napier is to proceed and establish himself as
we added a ditch ;we armed our workmen ;we increased of right at Canton. The next point which 1
themt:aßobinsond e tpor
o: afterpoec re
ee havingdd
at
on dc
the number of Europeans: we formed a garrison; we think was erroneous is to be found at
treated with the native powers; we soon discovered their page 4, whore Lord Napier is ordered to announcegoing
ieanrs
gtiMeanrttoee
MnCe
favourablyeaxt hmne
weakness ; that garrison marched out ; Clive appeared ; his arrival at Canton, by letter to the Viceroy. These
Arcot was seized and defended; the battle of Plassy was orders prejudiced the Chinese, and were made without not depart from the usual channel of communication, while
won; won; what Clive commenced the Wellesleys concluded, any previous communication or consultation. Then,
Seringapatam was taken, the Mysore was vanquished, and as to the point which I think is defective ; and in the
the Mahratta war was terminated by the battle of Assaye, course of what I have to address to the House, I shall show Noble Lord before his lastP RC •
and India became ours.—(Cheers.) Nor is this all—the that the Noble Lord and I entirely agree that there was e_sssiotun to power, ,
of the
course he should pursue towards
Indus and the Ganges no longer bound the limits of our a defect in the original orders of the Consul. The point years and a quarter experience
whichd khethceoduntry, the two
empire—the Hytespes has been passed—Cabal and Can- where the instructions were defective arises as to the modesince his last
accession to office, ought to have demonstrated
dahar have witnessed the advance of our armies—Central in which the power was exercised by the 6th clause of theto him the
extreme imprudence and impolicy ofadhe
origi-
Asia trembles at our presence, and almost acknowledges China Trade Act, whereby a transfer was made of the nal instructions. Mr. Davis and
Sir
Georgermg to his
our dominion, and on the borders of such an empire is it power enjoyed by the supercargoes of the East India Lord, Robinson
had in the mean time urged on the Noble
not natural that the Chinese, seeing what has passed, Company to the Superintendent. It subsequently in the
strongestthe necessity
manner,
should feel the utmost jealousy at the settlement of any came to the knowledge of the Noble Lord, Sir George Robinson says he cannot
pro-
of' the British within their territories.—( Hear. ) Their as is stated in the dispatch, to which I shall hereafter re- svten, guess the
bable views and intentions of her Majesty's
whole policy is fixed upon two cardinal points—the for, that there was an error in that. When the China in y s Government,.
and he adds that he acts advised]
in-
exclusion of strangers from residence as of right Trade Act was passed, the power vested in the supercar- reversing his
structions. Those instructions werye, that lie
within their territories, and from direct communication goes had ceased to exist. The power vested in the super- .go to
Canton, and communicate with the vice-regal eau
with the vice-regal authority. Now, Sir, we have carried cargoes was the power of withdrawing the li • in the
while he continued on the contrary to remai
out-
on ,an unsuccessful commerce with that country for two tenses from those who traded on the waters of ward waters. I confess that lam curious to inquiree
centuries. A great change took place in the manner of China—a more vindictive and grasping power can- what ground the recal of Sir George Robinson was
to
ne
conducting it, when it was taken from the direct control of not be conceived, because at that time no trade justified. —(Cheers.) I do not find any ground for it't in
the East India Company. I hope the House will permit was permitted except under license. An absolute and those despatches ; indeed, if a departure from his
me to read some passages from an admirable letter written arbitrary power of withdrawing the license gave, therefore, instructions and success in carrying on the trade
in the year 1832, by the Directors of the East India Corn- unlimited power to the supercargoes; it_ was an ample were sufficient grouads, then his recal might be
pany to their Superintendent, resident at Canton. power, and the attempt to convey to the
Superintendent justified. The Noble Lord never blames him throughout
The letter was written in answer to a communiea- the power exercised by the supercargo was an entire. the whole correspondence with neglecting his instructions,
*ntendent during the re- failure of the power, inasmuch as the authority
tion received from the Superi nor were any fresh instructions ever sent out to him ;but,
-f mis- whichsought to be conveyed had been rescinded
seeding year, stating the circumstancesrred o. a
ben was
Act of Parliament anterior to the China tSbier, I find that which probably justifies his dismissal, at
understanding which had doccu _ between . the
_ao
authorities at Canton. I will not ra c ct. o
Td A N w the portion of the instructions to which but bottom of p. 117 in these papers—" To use the common
Superintendent and the
r nds of that misunderstanding, I entirely adhere are to be found in the third page in which applicable maxim, of `letting thatwhich •
is well
alone,' I shall carefully'
enter at length into the grounds
House that it arose out of a there is that most solemn direction to the Superintend- avoidt all danger and risk of any
change of a doubtful
but will merely state. to the
prejudices of the Chinese, ent to the utmost of his ability to protect British subjects. This
Ina nature in its prospective effects."—
want of proper attention to the
had
they establishedrespect- (Hear, hear.)
Now observe these words, " Not in all their commercial • conceive to be so decidedly hostile
and to the regulations which.
h females to the factory at Can- speculations, not in their trade in general without limitation, and opposite to the policy of her Majesty'sG 9
Government--
and
ing the admission of British
fh es lanade in front of that but in the peaceable prosecution of all lawful entwrprises (Loud cheers)—that an agent, even at Canton, declaring
ton, and From the enlargement° t e p . that his maxim was to let well alone, n t
quote this letter with the in which they may be engaged in China,"—( Loud cries of a urally altogether
forfeited the confidence of
factory by a few feet. I
the matter of it " Hear, hear,)—and it then tells the Superintendent thather Majesty's Government.—
greater confidencebecause I know that
.(Hear, hear.) But,
Ministers, and he is to observe all possible moderation, "cautiously to ab- Sir, Captain Elliot, upon his acces-
t deliberation to the
was the subject of grea
; d the head of the Govern- stain from all unnecessary use of menacingalanguage, sion to office, immediately adopted the
opposite course,
I believe that it was submitted to
his . and he proceeded to use his end,
met with entire approval. At or from making any appeal for protection to our militaryendeavours to ive effect to
silent at that period, and _ his instructions.
at the present time more or naval forces unless in any extreme Case. The most However, after the lapse of two ears,
anent events it is a document which,Captain Elliot, being in the entire confidence y'
House. Tlevident ' necessity shall require thatsuch '
of the le
especially is well worthy the attention
_Lord
opposite, proceeded
dispatch from the Board language should be holden, or that any such appeal
Right Hon. Baronet then read a tions, and from that
Superintendent at Canton, should be made ; and we do further comrnand and moment occurred irritation—hastiness
of Directors to the British . on the one part, andthe
in which the Board stated require you, in the general discharge of your duties, on other a constant state f
dated the 13th January 1832, by = bulence. I had almost said that a s t o tur-
been sought as.such Superintendents, to abstain from and avoid all such sem of agitation pre-
that the trade to China bad originally
' h ityielded them - • ht veiled from that time. Captain Elliot
themselves, and that the advantages which
• bstanding the attempts which excite jealousy amongst the inhabitants of China ;" and with the Chinese authorities, and from that moment I think
were great, and that, notwithstanding is to be dated
belligerent policy, they were it goes on, "we do require you constantly to bear in alr. . the origin of the present calamitous disputes.
had been made to adopt a
best to be pursued inmind,Elliot soon discovered that his
and to impress, as occasion
may offer, upon our sub.
convinced that a pacific course was
could powers over British
and that they not ecter • • China, the dut f subjects were imperfect and •
their intercourse svith the Chinese, ,, 3 esident in, or resorting to. y c conformin inoperative ; and he stated
long as
this expressly and repeatedly
refuse to China what our own country claimed—theh.right to the laws and usages of the Chinese empire so as Sept. to the Noble Lord. On
exclusively to regulate the grounds on which any any I,liter_ such laws shall be administered towards you and them with o t 26, 1837, Captain
Lor Elliot writes thus—" I would in
this place, m
course would be permitted with otherf ec.otuhnattriecs.hio They justice and good faith, and in thesam same manner in which e be lost
a respectful but earnest hope
teat no timey ma
impressed on the Superintendent the China was
the same are or shall be administered towards the subjects in the formation of adequate
affairs • without the judicial and police institutions
perfectly free to regulate her own
persons They regretted that any foreign nations resident in or resorting to China.” „ s subjects this empire, and I have no hesitation '
tervention of any other pers . , ,in
ken place, and stated that Nowthe Government " assuring your Lordship that is •
misunderstanding should have taken place,
the Provincialauthoritiesshould the most formal sanction to their
operation.
into any discussion with the Chinese ferred in these instructions, as demonstrated by
lously avoid entering than 2 00
ofor several months in the year there are not less
Government except when absolutely necessary, 4
ane experience, and foretold by competent authority— Macao,,his Majesty's subjects at Canton, Whampoa,
be carried
that ins such a case the discussiion should that these two cardinal errors—that of the right and the immedi t a ely adjacent anchorages ; and
on with temper and moderation, and closed at the to reside at Canton, and to correspondence, not with the b • •
your Lordship is aware that, except in cases of
earliest possible period. The Directors stated further Hong merchants, but with the Viceregal authority, have homicide, the Chinese Government do not interpose
their desire to correct a dangerous notion, which was but never been corrected. My second allegation is, at all for the preservation of peace between them and
too common with the merchants who inhabited Canton, that there was a legal defect in the instructions, namely, their own people, or between his Majesty's subjects
which was, that nothing was to he gained from the Chi- the attempt to convey a power which it was imagined themselves." Thus, Sir, we have repeated warnings from
nese by attention to their laws, but that everything was to was dormant, but was proved to be extinct, had up to the the Duke of Wellington and from Captain Elliot of the
be gained by their intimidation. You may, for a moment, present day never been remedied. My last charge is, that been given. And this did not arise from ignorance on the
China at defiance, but not only do they take the able, and which directed the Superintendent to support part of the Noble Lord, for I beg leave to call attention to
first moment to assert their dominion, hut may British subjects only in the peaceable exercise of national the following despatch :
take also the first moment to deprive you of i rights and lawful trade, has not been carried into cacti- VISCOUNT PALMERSTON eo CAPT. ELLIOT.
sonic advantage which either tacitly or openly you h , have !lion, and has not up to this moment been enforced by her ogi " Foreign-office, Nov. 8, 1836.
r,—l have observed that in your minute of the 15th

CAPTAIN BLLIOT.
" Choo the Prefect of Kwang Chow-Fso, and Hse,
Commandant of the same department, jointly issue cAn-
mands to the English Superintendent, Elliot. On the
25th of December, 1838, they received from the Governor
Kwangtung and Kwangsetang, the following official door
ment. I received on Dec. 23, the subjoined Address from
the English Superintendent Elliot (the Address of Dec.
29, inclosure 9, is here inserted). Tho said Superin-
tendent came, I find, to Canton, in obedience to commands
received from his Sovereign, to exercise control over the
merchants and seamen, to repress the depraved, and 10
extirpate evils. Having such commands given to him he
' must needs also have powers. —( Cheers.) It is very
inexplicable, then, that these boats having in violation of the
4 law entered the river, he should now find it difficult to send
1 them out again, owing to his not having the confidence i❑

thus appears, Sir, that the Chinese themselves coved
not understand that the Government would have alloyed
a Superintendent to remain some years at Canton without
furnishing him with the requisite powers.—(Cbeers.)
But now, Sir, I anticipate it mty be urged by the Noble
Lord that he did make as application to Parliament in
1838 for an extension of powers, and the Hon. Member
for Lambeth ( Mr. [lasses) will recollect the course he
and I took upon that occasion. I resisted that Bill intro-- p
duced by the Noble Lord.—( Hear, hear.) I know u
taunt will be raised upon that, but what was tee
abject of that Ma I cannot state it mora dis6netly
than in the words of the Noble Lord himself, w'no said
" the object of the Bill is to extend the powers now e 11•••
isting to the trial of civil offences." Now, Sir, this
argument is that the sixth clause of 'ate China Trade Act j
gives her Majesty unlimited criminal and admiralty juri3.l I
diction over her subjects at Canton, but gives uo
jurisdiction, and I thought—and was supported by th''
Hon. Member for Lambeth, and by another Hon. Meru-
ber of great authority upon this question (Sir G. Steal' 1
ton), that it would be a gross hardship to extend the
diction to actions of debt between the Chinese anria Bri-
tish, when I knew that the Chinese would take adaredltagc
of it as plaintiffs, but would not submit to it as deAnd atttl'•e
But, Sir I now come to every grave charge againstthe NotDct
Lord that of giving to the House a most unfair and impierieto I
view of the question when he made this affirmation
it
Parliament. From what the Noble Lord then stated
must have seemed that the most amicable understanding, ,
prevailed with the Chinese, when, at the same time, tc'• '
al .1 •
I Noble Lord was in full possession of information as to
these serious and dangerous disputes with regard to ti
opium trade—( Hear, hear)—and it is now only that t
question presents itself to Parliament in all its accamt
lated and aggravated difficulties.—( Hear, hear.) 50
early as the 3d of Nov., 1834, full warning is given by 110
imperial edict upon the subject, and transmitted by
Mr. Davis to Lord Palmerston, and the East India Coin-
pany, before they transferred their management of the
trade to her Majesty's authorities, left a veay emphatic
warning—" The time is fast arriving when, under
the system of non-interference, has been reared uP
a piratical and lawless traffic, which it °I..
incumbent upon us to put down, or the very existence
our legal trade may be in danger."—( Cheers.) And njaoi 2
what was the answer of the Noble Lord ? At Pag-
we find the following ;
" VISCOUNT PALNIERSTON TO CAPTAIN ELLIoT.
" Foreign Office, July 22, 18r.36.
" Sir--With reference to that part of red-, in in
of the 27th of December, 1835, inclosed
Sir George Robinson's dispatch of the 18th February
last, in which, for the reasons therein stated, „
s.: Y.
advise that the commander of the steamboat Jaral
should be enjoined, in the King' authority, bY
means to proceed up the river to Canton, I think it nece„ ,
in
sary to recommend to you great caution, in interfering
ts.
such a manner with the undertakings of British merchan
In the present state of our relations with China, it is e 5513,,
cially incumbent upon you, while you do all that lie
your power to avoid giving just cause of offence to
coo
Chinese authorities, to be at the same time very ear
ti,, $
not to assume a greater degree of authority over Brl
subjects in China than that which you really possess.
(Signed) " PALMERSTO'S',.; 1
( Cheers from Lord Palmerston and some Waist'
Members.) The Noble Lord cheers.__( Beef , 11e8)
What was the power which the Superintendent °Eseagor
—( Hear, hear.) Why none at all--( Hear. hear) ity
the Noble Lord had conveyed none, although. tile nectics,s. ,
for so doing had been pointed out ever since I. 833,---(il•-fd
hear.) Now, Sir, I may be permitted to se y, with regf-orof
to the opium trade, that I believe there is T iretty clear P. to
that the Chinese Government connived at 'the traffic "ere
a certain time—( Hear, hear)—when ;t lippears there 100
debates in the Chinese Cabinet as to whether the 010,
should be totally prohibited, or have. only a heavy datYadera
posed upon it, and I ant not quite sure if the free 11.
had not the best of the argament. —( 'Hear, hear, from 1090'
Hume, and a laugh.) But it appeara that there are eo,a f
divisions in China as well as herea—the prohibitionaee
carried by a majority of one, and strong edictsppword,
passed, which were transmitted to the Noble
e'd) the
'file despatch is to be found at page 241, and is dat
take°
19th Nov., 1837, and states several facts which had tonal
Place consequent upon the change of policy of the 11aPb'e)en
Government. It stated that " The native boats ha"c eon-
burned, and the native sniuggle•es scattered ; and turtlepietc
sequence, as it was foreseen it would be, that a c° whole,
and very hazardous change has been workedofinti;cupaaaret•il
manner of conducting the Canton portion
Now when was this despatch received ? and I ei,,,irlod
cularly to draw the attention of my Hon. roiaed
on
Member for Tamworth to this fact. It was re% of tle
the 15th of May, 1838, so that it was in the ban" the
Noble Lord at the very time that we were discus April
Chinese affairs ill this House. The despatch °I, In 03';
20th, 1838, received Dec. 1, 1838, stated that
_bor ot
course of the last two months the nc
English boats employed in the illicit trail'nereaseci.
tween Lintin and Canton has vastly aeon':
and the deliveries of opium have frequently been_ Is and
panied by conflict of fite-arms between those vel since
the Government preventive craft. About a I",ecwitheat
an unfortunate Chinese was executed immediatel...otence
the walls of this town by strangulation; as the
inscribed over him bore, for traitorous intercourca` silor•
foreigners, and tor smuggling opium and gr`.'edeedlll
The place of execution (quite unusual), an 'a _dote
terms of the sentence plainly indicated that it 07a1::%aropic,;
mainly with a view to the intimidation and for a t
abjee
to the foreigners." So that, we see, the. S: Majesty,
brought constantly under the attention of -her 3to 153..
Government by a series of despatches from. -Isp3 Govern'
On the 18th of April, 1839, her Majc!AY fromCar
meat received a further communication 327 .1
tain Elliot, which will be found at Page origin t'a,
" It had been clear to me, my Lord, froan tlieroust ger,
this peculiar branch of the opium traffic, that the trioltt..
more and more mischievous to every branch clio, its
and certainly to none more than to that a
Ificreaseki;
As the danger and the shame of its pursuit s into tvjo,,
was obvious that it would fall by rapid degrees it We!'
hands of more and more desperate men—'
aaravati,cf
stain the foreign character with constantly .617 ,f t
disgrace in the sight of the whole better tortelif" more g',ll
people ; and, lastly, that it would connect
more intimately with our lawful commercial
interest; f
to the great peril of vast public and pripve Ivjaramgs et ,
And in the dispatch, at page 3-97, ta_aa distditi
Captain Elliot become more clear alt"whieb
and the representations and warnings forctul`,
made were as clear, as distinct, and ag t Noo,
as it was possible to be made to any —ove
a rrntealiln• Flllet
were any additional instructions sent to Cap s __nferre' ,
Nothing like it. Were any additional power :for, ex
upon him ? Nothing of the sort. Were the iie we
ercised by Captain Elliot, and which he tbouff
ric v
already invested with, approved of ? Quite ticu..rain t
Captain Elliot had made a vigorous effort "
r arried ()e •
opium trade in the mode in which it was then e 0
and, as I have already stated, had endeavoured to
this this purpose by the establishment of a police. 'wbo, io •
side meet with the approval of the Noble Ler Lad JuliU
e vt
h patch, rebuked Captain Eliot for what "
and told him he had no power to do as he had
the concurrence of the Chinese authorities.
ression
Noble Lord did not give any power for the suiy.s_
ode,
.e
this traffic?, did he eive any intimation to the Briii b trade
t to th
cc. •
to exercise great(4 caution, or to show more respects so.
ego
Chinese authorities ? All diet the Noble Lord oi..tTuter