The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-08 00:00:00

-;;.'1‘11E SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY EVENIN6, MARCH 8, 1849.

terms of friendship, things were not in a very satisfac-
tory state. True it was that there was no war, and he
begged to say that he was as much opposed to war as the
Noble Lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs,
and that he was most desirous to promote an amicable
and peaceful policy, and would avoid all those acts
which would by any possibility tend to disturb exist-
ing tranquillity, and which would lead to hostility, and
when they saw at present, wherever they turned their
eyes, that our relations were not of that amicable de-
scription which was desired, he felt authorised
in bringing the subject before the attention
of the House.—(Hear, hear.) He would touch
for one moment upon the events of last year, and draw
the attention of the House, in the first instance, to our
relations with the kingdom of Spain. At an early period
of the session, last year, our relations with that country
were not of that amicable nature which was desired.
Rumours of an unpleasant description were afloat,
and questions were put to the Government which
elicited only very short answers, until at last those ques-
tions were interrupted by a signal fact, viz., the arrival
of our ambassador, who had been sent away from the
Court in disgrace, the whole particulars of which had
never yet been c xplained to the House. In reference to
the matter, ho submitted a motion to the House in the
month of June last, and one of the highest authorities
of the House told him that the motion was premature.
Not meeting with that degree of encouragement, without
which he had no desire to trouble the House to vote
upon any subject, he did not press his motion to a divi-
sion, and indeed the Noble Lord (Lord Palmerston)
would not give him an opportunity of having a direct
division on the subject. Up to so late a period as last
week proceedings had taken place with regard to our
relations with the Court of Spain, but in that House
they had heard nothing upon the subject of them. It
was with the recollection of what passed with regard to
Spain that he took the opportunity to refer to another
branch of our relations—that was our rela-
tions with the kingdom of the Two Sicilies.
Then it appeared that the King of the Two Scilies had,
unfortunately for himself, invited to his Court a diplo-
matic agent of this country, who had been instrumen-
tal in fomenting insurrection in Italy, and latterly
rebellion in Rome.—(Hear, hear.) His efforts, how-
ever, were ineffectual in putting out the flame which
he had raised, and having made every place
too hot for him he came home. The presence of such a
nobleman was sure to have its natural effect upon the
insurgent party, and an opposite effect upon those who
were arrayed against them. What were their re-
lations with Sicily when these negotiations ceased
he did not know, as no official accounts had
been furnished. They had, therefore, to rely
upon the accounts published in the newspapers.
If, in point of fact, Sicily did become an independent
notion, it was only right--it was absolutely necessary
that the Houses of Parliament should have been in-
formed of a great change of that description;
more especially should the Houses of Parliament have
been informed of such a circumstance, since such a course
was opposed by the treaty of Vienna. Then, again, the
King of the Two Sicilies was recognised in the Queen's
Speech es thing of Naples; and they had beets left to
form their c/hjectures as to the cause. Subsequently they
learned from rumours floating terough the town that arms
had besn permitted to be sent by that authority for the
supply of the insurrectionists early in the past autumn.
Though he (Mr. Bankes) knew that arms had gone
from this country, lie could noostitibocn.licivne
tthheat
ect,ittieny.
had gone as ith the cognisance of a Cabinet
Minister, occupying a high p
cils of his couutry—he heard, therefore, with surprise
the Noble Lord not only acknowledge that the fact was
perfectly true, but that he saw nothing objectionable in
it. He must, therefore, at that tune, have considered
Sicily an independent state, since on no
other ground could such conduct be justified.
There must surely have been a time
when he acknowledged the independence of that
kingdom. It appeared that the contractor employed by
the Sicilian insurrectionists applied to the Ordnance-
office for arms, because he had not time to get them
elsewhtre. The Ordnance refused to comply with his
request, and the matter was referred to the Noble Lord
the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. He
did not know what degree of control the Noble
Lord possessed over the Ordnance department, but
of this he was satisfied, that the Ordnance-office
would not act without his authority, and that he
gave it and did not deny that he had so acted.
He could not conceive under what circumstance it could
be right to give the high sanction of the authority
which the Noble Lord held in the country to the
arming of insurgent against their lawful King,
supposing there had been no
"distinct recog-
nition, on the part of that King, of the in-
, dependence of the revolted province. There were other
circumstances of a peintul nature to which he
might allude, such as what had been stated
positively in that House had been denied
in the other, but he would not further advert to that
subject. He would merely conclude by making the motion
of which he had given notice. He understood there was
no objection to the substance of the motion,
but he (Mr. Bankes) adhered to the whole statement, as
he believed it was the only way of eliciting the truth.
Lord PALMERSTON said that it was true, as the
Honourable Gentleman had stated, that he should
have no objection to produce the papers he moved for ;
but he felt bound to object to the latter words of the
motion, because it implied opinions with respect to the
question between the Sicilians and this country which
the House was not in a condition to decide upon. He
had no objection to the ulotion for the account of all
arms furnished to the Sicilians, but he must
object to that part of the motion in which the
Hon. Member called the Sicilians insurgents.—(Hear,
hear). The Hon. Gentleman had stated that there never
was a fitting and proper time to be found to discuss fo-
reign questions in that House. He must, however,
compliment the Hon. and Learned Gentleman on having
found out a time which he had thought fitting and pro-
per—namely, the time when he was perfectly ignorant
of the matters that were pending.—(Cries of " Hear,
hear," and laughter.) The House was not
at the present moment in possession of the documents to
oorrect the fallacies of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman.
He (Lord Palmerston) wholly denied the second
assertion of the Honourable and Learned Gentle-
man. It was true that when discussions were pro-
posed on matters of intricate foreign negotiations, when
those discussions were brought forward at an improper
time, that it was the duty of the Government, and he had
invariably adopted that course, to decline entering
into a discussion founded upon papers that had not been
laid before the House; but he had never declined
entering into a discussion founded upon papers that
had been laid before the House. Those who wanted
to find fault with the Government, that adopted such
a course, were to blame, and not those who really wished
for information.—(Hear.) There was a great difference
on this subject, as on many others, between the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman and himself; he seemed
to consider that all persons who took up arms in vindi-
cation of their rights were insurgents.—(Hear, hear.)
The Honourable Gentleman belonged to the old school,
who thought there was

.4 A right divine in kings to govern wrong."
—(Hoar.) The Honourable Gentleman had stigmatised
the Sicilians as insurgents—he would not go into the
question; the Sicilians had had a constitution for cen-
turies; enjoyed under that consti-
tution
hadthe rightsbeen confirmed by their Sovereign
in 1812, when their ancient constitution was
remodelled and reformed. At that time their constitu-
tion was sanctioned, article by article, by the word of
iFilians rose in arms to assert
He (Lord Palmerston) asserted,
inon, they did so for the purpose
theirtthh ee
of asserting a right that had never been abrogated. He
rSe
foroivgreehr,et
sitghtnao
to: theefont
hsdte.ai
tyus.
could not concur with the Honourable Gentleman
in stigmatizing the Sicilians as insurgents.—(Hear, bear.)
The Honourable Gentleman had said that the rela-
tions of this country with foreign Powers were not
in the situation he should wish to see them in.—
(Hear.) He (Lord Palmerston) thought some of the
views of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman would
lead this country into that condition with foreign
Powers he did not wish 'to see.—(Hear, hear.) He
(Lord Palmerston) denied that the relations of this
country with foreign Powers were in an unsatisfactory
state.—(Hear, hear.) He asserted most unhesitatingly
that the character of this country stood high with foreign
Powers, and that the moral influence of this country—a
moral influence founded upon the good sense and en-
lightened conduct of England—was great among foreign
nations. Foreign countries had seen, in the midst of
events which had shaken other countries to their very
centre—(Hear, hear)--this country

“ fell not, but stands unshaken;
From without and from within'gainst all temptations armed.',
—(Loud cheers.) And that had given confidence
among foreigners in the people and Government of
England. Foreign nations felt that the British Govern.
ment and the British people were fitted and willing to give
advice when asked—(Hear, hear)—and that advice was
valued and respected, and not spurned and condemned,
as bad been asserted by the Hon. and Learned Member.
The Hon. and Learned Gentlemen had adverted to the
interruption of the intercourse between this country
and Spain, and bad complained loudly that no
information had been given on the subject. All
he could say was, that the papers on that subject were
laid on the table of the House last year; and it nothing
had been dune upon the subject, he was not to blame for
laughter.) Tt e
.
it, and the fault lay with the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman, and not with the Government.—(Hear.)
They might remember that the Hon. Gentleman had a
wonderful, but a somewhat defective, and certainly a
very short memiry.—(Hear,
lion. Gentleman had referred to the mission of Lord
lleienntoestsoenNtiaaplllyes,mainsedhhieavdosutsareidn that his interference had
b
hear,
provokingand
thehostility
between the King of Naples and his Sicilian subjects. Be
would again tell him that he was wrong in his facts as
well as in his conclusions.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord left
this country on his mission on the 17th December, and
reached Naples on the 6ch of February. He presented
his credentials on the 7th of February, and yet the lion.
Gentleman asserts that the disturbances which occurred
at Messina were in consequence of the excitement pro
duced by Lerd Minto's declaration after his arrival in
December.—(” Hear, hear," from all parts of the House
great cheering, and laughter.) Now, with respect to
the mission of his Noble Friend, the Hon. Gentleman
said that the principal object of it was to excite the
subjects to rebel against their sovereigns.—(Hear.)
Mr. BANKES—I said just the contrary. I said, not
that he excited the subjects to rebel, but that such was
the effect of his acting on his instructions.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON—The Hon. Gentleman was
so much accustomed to produce effects which he never
desired that he (Lord Palmerston) was net at all sur-
prised at his confounding intention with effect on the
present occasion. Now, he denied the Hon. Member's
assertion with respect to the effect as well as the inten-
tion. It was not true that any such effects as had been
ascribed to them had been produced by the exertions of
his Noble Friend. Lord Minto was aware when he

went on his mission what was the object of it,
and that while his first duty was to procure the
fulfilment of the articles of the several treaties, his
next was to bring the opposing parties into a pesitioa of
mutual peace and ainity.—(Hear, bear.) The ilonour-
able Gentleman might as wed say that the mission of
his Noble Friend to Rome in the beginning of last year,
was productive of the events which occurred at the be-
ginniug of the present, or rather at the close of last year.
—(Hear, hear.) Now, he could tell the House that the
interference of Lord Miuto was at the express request of
the King of Naples, or as the flonouralde Gentleman
wished in strict diplomatic phrase to designate him, the
King of the Two Sicilies—that interference was at the ex-
press request of the King himself.—(Hear, hear.)
Now the Hon. Gentleman misread treaties. He asserts
that the title of the King of the Two Sicilies was con-
ferred by the treaty of Vienna. It was very true that
by that treaty the Sovereign was empowered to enter
upon his dominions.
Mr. BANK ES—With the title of the King of the
Two Sicilies.—(Great laughter and cheers from the
Opposition, and counter• cheers from the Ministerial
eeeches.)
Lord PALMERSTON—True with the title of the
King of the Two Siciiits, but though King of the Two
Sicilies, he was in fact King of Naples, But title did
nut give a right to territory, and it was just as
reasonable to question the justice or the courtesy of any
men who used this mode of address as it would be for any
one to suppose that, because the sovereign of this kingdom
was formerly styled King of England and France, he was
necessarily entitled to a portion of the territory of that
country.—(Hear, hear.) Besides, the right to territory
or of title did not give the right to overturn constitu-
tions. The title was one thing-, the territory was
another.—(Hear, hear.) He regretted that the Hon.
Gentleman had not waited until the papers con-
nected with this subject were laid on the table
of the House.; Ile regretted it especially
because, although it was better fin. the Hon. Gentleman,
it was worse fur the House.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.)
These papers would diselo;e what he now might tell him,
that it was the most earnest desire of her Majesty's Go-
vernment to continue the friendly relations of this coun-
try with the kingdom of the Two Sicilies. That had
been the desire of the Government at all times, and
never more than during the period when these negotias
dons were pending.—(Hear, and cheers.) The desire,
indeed, was at all times expressed, and expressed
to preserve a perfect union between the Sicilies and
England.—(Hear, hear.) Now, with regard to the papers
he had no sort of objection to produce them.—(Hear.)
Then, with respect to the papers regarding the matter
to which the Hun., Member had alluded of the arms
which had been supplied to the Sicilian insurgents. The
contractor for the supply of arms to her Majesty's
Government had sent in a certain number of iron
gums. Having a contract also for Sicily, that gentleman
had applied for leave to take them out of the stores
to send them to that island. He had been applied to by
the official authorities on the subject, and he had, with-
out hesitation, given his assent for that purpose.—
(Hear, cheers, and counter-cheers.) But it was done
in a moment of inadvertence; and, as such, he stated it.
Upon a review of the circionstances, however, and con-
ceiving that such a proceeding might he offensive at
the Court of Naples, her Majesty's Minister at that
Court had been duly instructed to explain the
matter.—(Renewed cheering, and counter. cheering.)
Let not Hon. Gent emen suppose that this fact was with-
out a precedent—(Hear, hear)—or that it was an in-
variable practice. The Government of France had al-
ways allowed the sale of arms out of the public stores for
any people or kingdom whatever.—(Hear, hear, and
cheers, and repeated cheers.) He had no objection, he
repeated, to produce the papers with this alteration in the
terms of the motion, that the words after 4` to the"
should be left out, and others substituted, which would
prevent the publication of the political portion of the
affair.—(Cheers.)
Sir J. WALSH said that the Noble Lord had entered
upon an unusually discursive course on the present oc-
casion. But he would rather follow his precept than
imitate his example, and confine himself simply to the
merits of the case. He did not perceive that the Noble
Lord had in any respect answered the observations
of his Hon. Friend, nor had he in any way shown that
the duty of this country had been tulfilled under the
treaties into which we had entered at the Congress of
Vienna, and which the mission of Lord Minto had made
more difficult than they were, if not impossible.
It was simply this—were we neutral in the struggle giiing
on between Naples and Sicily, was the position of Eng-
land that of a neutral power, and if so was this transaction
inconsistent with the position and character of a neutral
power. That was the plain question which was raised by
the motion of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Bankes).—(Hear.) It
appeared that a contractor applied to the Ordnance for
some of the Queen's stores, for the purpose of sending
those arms to Sicily; that the Ordnance applied to the
Noble Lord, and that they received the sanction of the
Noble Lord for issuing those arms out of those
stores. It did appear to him (Sir J. Walsh) that
this veil of the contractor was so transparent and
so thin a pretext that it utterly failed. It
was impossible to argue, with a perfect knowledge of the
facts which the Government seemed to have had of the
contractor not concealing the purpose for which he ap-
plied for those arms, but that it was just as much the
act of the Noble Lord and the Government, as if they
had directly sent those arms on the applica-
tion of the Sicilian Government. If there was a
difference, there was something unworthy the character
of a great nation in effecting thie object by so indirect a
means. That was not the whole of this transaction.
The Noble Lord had very acutely dwelt at considerable
length on those general topics; but he scarcely
adverted to his (Sir J. Walsh's) Honourable
Friend's motion. He disposed of it in his
light, easy, flowing strain, in some five or six sen-
tences, and then he sat down; but the whole of this
transaction was not even now fully before the House of
Commons. It appeared there was a reconsideration of
this question. The act of the Noble Lord had come
more formally before the consideration of the Govern-
ment—(Hear, hear)—and it appeared that the
act of the Noble Lord was not approved of by the ma-
jority of his colleagues.—(Hear, hear.) His (Sir J.
Walsh's) Hon. Frien had remarked that the House of
Commons was almost the only society in which topics
relating to foreign affairs were almost tabooed, a
subject on which the House was scarcely allowed to
enter ; but there was another society in which
there was a similar exclusion, and that was the Cabinet.
—(Hear, hear.) It appeared the Noble Lord mono-
polised the whole management of those things without
any communication with his colleagues, and that after-
wards, when those subjects were brought on more
formally, the Government felt it necessary
to disavow them ; and their instructions were
given by the Government to its Ambassador
at Naples that if any explanation was de-
manded it should be said to the Neapolitan Government,
on the part of her Majesty's Government, that such a
step was inadvertently taken, and was taken without due
regard to the consequences, and taken hastily, and
without fully weighing the construction that
might be placed upon it. He said that was
a position which he deeply regretted that this
country was placed in. He said those apologies and
those retractations for that equivocal and clandestine act
struck at the honour, and character, and reputation of
this great country. Ile did say, when the Noble Lord
dilated in his easy, flowing manner on the moral force
which England possessed, and on the weight which
was naturally attached to her great character in all her
diplomatic transactions and proceedings of this kind,
underhand in the first place, and disavowed and
apologised for in the second, were calculated to
weaken and destroy that moral force. That
was the real ground, and the very narrow ground on
which the question stood. He and his Hon. Friend
(Mr. Bankes) did not intend on the present occasion to
raise the general question of the politics of Sicily, or to
go over the field of Neapolitan and Sicilian affairs.
His Hon. Friend made this distinctive motion in order
to invite the attention of the House to the matter which
he had brought before it.
Mr. MACGREGOR said, if he had known this ques-
tion would have been brought under discussion he would
have brought facts and statements to bear upon
it which would have given it a very different
complexion. He would say, if the Noble Lord the Se-
cretary for Foreign Affairs could have been justified
in any interference whatever with the affairs
of other countries, it would have been in
the affairs of Sicily. He did not think there
had been anything like that interference with
which the Noble Lord was charged. He (Mr. Mac-
gregor) knew that country well, and had travelled over
many countries called despotic, but in no country
did he ever see so many military executions for pre-
sumptive crimes as in the island cf Sicily. The
Sicilians had acted with the greatest harmony, and there
was the greatest domestic tranquillity. With respect
to what was done either by the English or French
Admirais, he considered it was neither more nor less
than two gentlemen walking across a field,
and who interfered to prevent a great
many people from ill-using a woman and her
children. That was what was done at Messina.
There never was a greater act of humanity than that
done by Sir William Parker with regard to the people of
Messina. He (Mr. Macgregor) had no hesitation in say-
ing the Noble Lord the Secretary for Forcing Affairs
had done more to preserve the peace of Europe since
the beginning of 1848 than any Minister who bad ever
had the management of foreign affairs in this country.
—(Elese, hear.) He said that not from any personal
feelings, but merely from his (Mr. Macgregor's) own
actual experience and personal knowledge, and his com-
munications from other countries.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL congratulated the Noble
Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, on the
full determination on his own part, and on
the part of the Ministry, to recognise the
entire right and justice of a nation to demand the
government of its own affairs.—(Laughter.) Ile trusted
he should have the benefit of the Noble Lord's support
when Ireland made the same appeal.—(Laughter)--tor
the case would be equally as strong as that of the Sicilians.
The Irish people had advocated their rights by peaceable
and constitutional means. He congratulated the Noble
Lord on his approximation to better principles.—
(Laughter.) He had said there was no divine right in
kings, neither was there a divine right in a Parliament.
The Noble Lord also said that a country labouring under
circumstances of misfortune was not made for sovereigns
and governments to trifle with. Neither, he would add
to this, was the Irish nation made for sovereigns and
governments, ar.d though the people of Ireland had
great agection for their Sovereign, they had no attach-
ment for her Government. The Noble Lord spoke also
of an ancient constitution which ought always to be re-
cognised. He (Mr. O'Connell) would remind the
House of the ancient constitution of Ireland—(A laugh)
—which had endured for 800 years, and which was dis-
tinctly recognized in 1782 by Parliament, for in the
words of an Act which was then pissed it was declared
that the rights of the Irish nation bad been
established for ever.—(Hear, hoar.) The nation, how-

ever, was deprived of those rights by succ-ssive Parlia-
ments; but he hoped when he brought the subject more
formally in der the consideration of the House he should
at least have the support of the Noble Lord.—(hear,
and laughter ) He felt that he ought not to sit down
without saying a word or two as to Lord Minto's peace-
ful mission.—(Laughter.) " That mission," said the
Noble Lord, " was one of peace and consolation."—(A
laugh.) Well, they had no means of judging what in-
structions were given to Lord Minto, as they had not
seats ia the Cabinet, nor had they the paper relating to
the matter, but they could at any rate judge of the
mission by its fruits.—(Hear, hear.) Well, then, they
saw him going first to Sicily, and holding secret inter-
views with same of her sor►s, which led to war and op-
pression.—(llear.) Then, they saw him going to
Home, and tratereizing with Mdzzi❑i and the Prince
Canino, and going into a public balcony to salute a riot-
ous populace. Then they saw him going to Sicily, arid
there his proceedings had bee❑ followed by one of the
moat disastrous wars which hid taken place in modern
ii:nes. If this was a mission of peace, tie should like
to Itmew what was a mission of war.—(Laughter.)
Mr. HENLEY said, the Hun. Member for Glasgow
h•ad made a most extraerdinery defence tor the Noble
L rd, and had entered into a number of extraneous
circumstance:, but the simple and narrow question for
them to censider was, whether it was just and prudent
for a British Minister to sanction the issue
of a certain number of her Majesty's arms
and stores to assist a people in fighting
against their rulers.—(hear, hear.) That was the sim-
ple question to be discussed, but the Noble Lord had
thought fit to spend a great deal of virtuous indignation
upon the rights of nations, and various matters of that
kind.—(Hear, rind cheers.) He showed a most extreme
sensitiveness that there bhould be any word or any ex-
pression in the resolution which might seem in any wey
whatever to pledge the House to any opinion
on the matter in dispute between Sicily and the King of
the Teto Sicilies. The Noble Lord was extremely care-
ful and sensitive eta that point, but it seemed rather odd
that with this great sensitiveness on his part, the Noble
Lord, as the Queen's Foreign Minister, in speaking upon
this question, and almost in the same breath that he gave
this caution to the House, should have used the term
" Sicilian Government."—(llear, hear, and laughter.)
Ile should like to know what the Noble Lord meant by
that.—(Hear, hear.) Because, if he was so extremely
sensitive upon the effect of an accidental word in a reso-
lution, he ought to have been equally careful not to use
a term which might lead to the supposition that in the
mind of the Noble Lord he at least had recognised a
Government altogether different from that of the King of
the Two Siciliee. The Noble Lord's de ender,
who spoke from behind him, had told the House that
the Noble Lord had done more during the last year and
a half to preserVe the peace of Europe than any other
Minister who had ever held the seals of the For, ign De-
partment. That was a most extraordinary statement for
a defender of the Noble Lord to make, when the Noble
Lord himself had just previously admitted that he had
sanctioned the is•uing of arms to carry on a war.—
(Chsers.) To argue from that the peace of Europe
could be maintained was most illogical.—(Hear, hear.)
It was, indeed, a most illogical conclusion which the
Hon. Gentleman had arrived at, because it was quite
clear that had these arms not have been issued no
war could have taken place.—(Hear, leas, and cheers.)
But what was the justification of the Noble Lord for dosing
this? " Why," said the Noble Lord, ‘• the French Go-
vernmeut deal in arms!" Weil, but what had that to do
with the.Engiish Government? They had never dealt in
arms. They were not dealing with the French Gcvern-
merit but with the English Government, and their charge
was that they at least had no right to deal in arms.
They had never done so till now.—(Cheers.) He could
see no justification in that reason, then ; but
said the Noble Lord in continuation, " Let the
House remember that the moral influence of England
has great weight, and is respected in every Court in
Europe." No doubt it had, and he, for one, was glad
that the Noble Lord had nut yet succeeded in tar-
nishing that influence.—(Loud cheers.) But let not
the Noble Lord suppose that because the •acts of
former Ministers, of quite a different nature to
his own, had exercised a strong moral influence in
all the Courts of Europe, that therefore he could do as
he pleased.—(Hear, hear.) That moral influence was
not to be tampered with by the Noble Lord with im-
punity, and he for one hoped the Noble Lord would
shortly see the expediency of adopting a dif-
ferent policy to attempting to receive peace by open-
ing arms to the insurgents.—(Cheers and laughter.)
Mr. HUME was glad to hear that the Noble Lord
had emitted that the naval force of England had pre-
served the peace of Europe, because he trusted when he
should propose at an early period a reduction in the
army and navy, he should have a fair field.—(Hear and
laughter.) lie gave the Noble Lord full credit
for sincerity when he expressed his conviction that
England with her moral force had succeeded in securing
the peace of Europe, and he hoped the Neale Lord
would be prepared at the proper time to support a
motion fur a reduction of the forces.—(Loud
cries of " Hear, hear.") With regard to this; particular
question no doubt the Noble Lord had acted with the
best intentions, but he doubted much whether the fact
of a Minister high in office stating in another place that
the policy of the Noble Lord iu reference to Sicily
had been adopted with the sanction and privity of the
Cabinet, was calculated to increase the Noble
Lord's own moral influence abroad.—(Cheers.) The
Noble Lord's defender had talked about the Noble
Lord and his Admiral having interfered from motives
of humanity; but he for one deprecated the use of
such a justification, because, if they were always to
fall back upon motives of humanity, many
of our finest armies who fought our battles as a
matter of duty might be induced to abandon
us by motives of humanity.—(Hear, and cheers.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said his Noble Friend (Lord
Palmerston) had been accused of going beyond the
bounds of the motion, as it he had introduced other
subjects besides those directly relating to it; but the
tact was that the lion. Member (Mr. Bankes)
who made the Motion had alluded to a
number of matters which were not strictly
before the House. From point to point of the Hou.
Member's statement did his Noble Friend give answers,
which he (Lord John Russell) thought were en-
tirely satisfactory to the House.—(Hear, hear.) Now
he was not the only Member who had entered
into statements which were entirely irrelevant
to the aecount to which the motion related.
Did the House ever hear of a motion of censure with re-
gard to the acts of a Government proposed under the
shape of a motion for an account of a certain number of
guns which had been supplied by the Ordnance?—
(Hear, hear.) Was that not a strange mode of
censure when the account had not yet been laid
before the House, and when the Government were not
unwilling to produce it ?—(Hear, hear.) Was it not
unallowable to introduce a statement of the conduct of
the Government with respect to a particular matter
when the means of deciding upon it were not in the
possession of the House ?—(flear, hear.) That, in fact,
was the whole question at issue and nothing more, but
the occasion was so tempting, that Hon. Members could
not refrain from going into other matters.—(Laughter.)
he Hon. Member for Limerick said that was en occa-
sion to introduce the question of the repeal of the union,
and the Hon. Member for Montrose said it was a good
°ppm tunity for stating what should be the amount of the
estimates, and what reductions should be made.—
(Laughter.) The House would see the consequence of
that inconvenient proceeding, fur instead of moving for
an account of the number of guns supplied by the Ord-
nance, and ending there, statements had been introduced
with respect to the kingdom of the Two Sicilies and our
conduct towards it. Among other misunderstandings
upon the question before the House, there appeared to be
one with regard to what passed in another place
on the same subject, in substance to the effect that his
Noble Friend (Lord Palmerston) had said he maintained
that he had done perfectly right. Now, his Hon. Friend
said nothing of the kind, and had offered no opinion
upon the subject at the present moment. The lion.
Member for Montrose had stated that whatever might be
the opinion of other members of the Cabinet, they dif-
fered with the Noble Lord (Lord Palmerston). Nothing
of the kind had occurred. The fact was, this:—His
Noble Friend, some months ago, received an applica-
tion from the Ordnance-office with respect to the
supply of guns, and he then said that he
had no objection to assent to arms being given, but it
was not thereby intended that that country should be
inundated with British arms, nor that this coun-
try should be denuded of her arms.—(fieer, hear.)
Instructions were afterwards given to her Majesty's
Minister at Naples to offer an explanation, and to state
his regret at what had occurred. He did not wish to
enter into the merits of the qui alien, as to
the rights of the King of the Two Sicilies,
as acknowledged by that treaty of Vienna—as to the
right secured to the people by the assent of the ancient
and hereditary Prince of the Two Sicilies in the
year 1812. All these matters were of very se-
rious import, which he thought could not be well
understood without reference to the papers of the time
of the transactions of 1812 up to 1816. The papers
certainly did not justify the Honourable Gen-
tleman in saying that Lard 'Mint() had raised
the insurrection in the Two Sicilies in January
by going to Naples in the month of February. Lord
Minto went to Naples in February, the King having
expressed a wish to communicate with our
Ambassador from this country, and Lord s,linto, who
accepted the office, consider, d that he might be of use
to the King in arranging terms between him
and the Provi4onal Goverment of the Two Sicilies.
Ile (Lord J. Russell) was told that no such Government
existed, and that Lord Minto was not justified in the
course he adopted. The Noble Lord then referred
to the establishment of a Provisional Government in
Belgium, which he said this country did not hesitate to
acknowledge. He replied. to the statement of the Hon.
Member for Limerick by saying that his statement, that
the case of Sicily was similar to that of Ireland,
reminded him of a story told by a friend of his, who had
travelled in Shay. A child told him that she would go
to England by land, but he said she could not, as Eng •
and was an island; but, said the child, Sicily is an-
island too. (Laughter.) That was the resem-
blance between Ireland and Sicily.—(Hear, hear.)
But then the Honourable Member for Montrose tells us
that as England had so much moral force, this was a
good time to reduce the estimates. He thought that
wis rather too hasty an inference, because the Hon.
Member must know that if we wished to retain that
moral influence it would depend a good deal on our
being looked upon by other countries as a nation hag'
ing considerable power to make its views respected by
other nations.—(Hear, hear.) As to what the Hon.
Member for Limerick had said about Lord elinto
having endeavoured to excite insurrection in Rome,
and in Italy 'generally, so far from that lacing the
case, Lord Minto, when consulted by the Governments
of those countries as to the amendments in their con•ti
tutione which he would recommend, did not feel it his
duty to go so far in any case as to recommend a repre-
sentative- constitution for adoption,—(Hear, hear.) It

should also be recollected that the King of Naples was
the first t give a representative constitution to his sub-
jects, and that that alteration was the beginning cf the
disturbances which afterwards took place at Rome, Tus-
cany, Milan, and other parts of Itaiy.—(Bear.) Lord
Mint() was far fr:un having advised anything democratic.
He alvised the Sovereigns with whom he was brought
into contact, whilst they supported their independence,
to make such reforms as were required by the wants of
their people. He (Lord J. Russell) believed that with
regard to Italy, as well as to other parts of Europe, that
if such advice as that given by Lord Minto in 1848
ha I V( n given, and given with success, teenty yc aro
before to Austria, Prussia, and Italy, the disasters
that had occurred would have been averted. If the
Sovereigns of Italy Ed allowed their people
some liberty—if they had given them represeu•
tati)n--if, in short, they had given some
outlet to the intelligence and desire of the people
fur political power, which, with the progress of know-
ledge and the existence of peace, had been rendered ab-
solutely neeessar) —so fsr from bloody civil war
arising in Europe, they would have been
spared the >cene of past havoc, and instead
of beholding a transition from the most complete and
absolute de.potisrn to the most wild and rabid demo-
cracy, they would hare had the introduction of
constitutional governments, and would have beheld A
better state of things in Europe thau existed at the
present moment.—(Cheers.)
Mr.URQUHART rose amidst loud cries of " Divide."
He said the state of things iu Sicily was another instance
of the mischievous nature of the interference of this
country with foreign states; and it a similar course were
pursued in the future, the name of this country would be
brought into contempt in the eyes of the world.
Mr. BANKES was quite ready to adopt the sugges-
tions of the Noble Lord, and withdraw the word in-
surgenis as applied to the Sicilians, and he would make
his motion to the following effect : .6 An
account of all Ordnance stores returned from that de-
department to any contractor, in the year 1848, for the
purpose of being sent to the Sicilians, iu arms against her
Majesty's ally, the King of the Two Sicilies, with the
consent of her Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs." If the Noble Lord would consent to the motion
in that modified shape there would be no necessity
to divide upon it, but if he did not, 10
must persevere in his motion.

Lord PALMERSTON, not assenting to the motion as
amended, strangers were ordered to withdraw, isnd the
House divided, when there appeared—
For the motion
Against it ... 124
Majority against the motion ...-85
The motion was consequently lost.
The House adjourned at Six o'cl-ck.