The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-06 00:00:00

IRISit POOR-LAW-RATE IN AID.

Colonel VERNER presented a petition from the
unions of Armagh and Down against the proposition of
the Government respecting a rate in aid.
IRISH OUT-DOOR RELIEF.

An HoN. MEMBER presented a petition from the
guardians of the union of Ballinasloe, itflreland, against
the system of adminstering outdoor relief in Ireland.
IRISH POOR-LAW—RATE IN AID.
Mr. J. H. HA MILTON presented a petition, signed
by the sheriff of Dublin, on behalf of a meeting of the
inhabitants of that county, against a rate in aid.
Mr. MONSELL presented a similar petition from the
grand jury of the county of Westmeath, assembled at the
spring assizes.

15001 t LAW (IRELAND) BILL-ADJOURNED

DEBATE.

On the order of the day being read for the House
going into Committee on this Bill,

.. -
Mr. OSBORNE said, whatever differences of opinion
might exist in the House as to those resolutions brought
forward by the Noble Lord, he (Mr. Osborne) thought
there could be no dispute that the case had been very
fairly put before the House by the Noble Lord; and that,
divested of all rhetorical verbiage, the question
amounted to this—that the poor-law had entirely
broken down i❑ the western districts of Ireland, and
the Noble Lord now called on the House to levy con-
tributions on the north and south of Ireland in
support of the poverty of the west. He
(Mr. Osborne) for one protested that if he
saw the Noble Lord and his colleagues entertained any
clear conception or any general knowledge of the great
difficulties with which they were surrounded—
if he thought they had any mast 'ry over
the details of the measure before the House,
he would refrain , from making any observations
on what he thought at best must be considered an ex-
ceptional amendment; but, after the speech of the Noble
Lord and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he thought
nobody could resist the conviction that they were .
not able to deal with the tremendous difficul-
ties with which the subject of Ireland was sur-
rounded. He could see no chance of their laying
down any permanent foundation for the establishment
of a better state of society in the western districts of
Ireland. This Bill could do nothing more than feed the
distemper, instead of attempting a cure, and it
became the House to pause before it entered upon a
course of policy which would not communicate any per-
manent benefit to the western parts of Ireland, whilst it
would exhaust the southern and northern districts.
He protested against the system of levying rates
for the purpose of giving eleemosynary relief to the
paupers of the west of Ireland, but before entering into
the details of the resolution before the House, he
wished to state expressly to the House that ho
for one could not sympathise in the opposition
offered to this measure by the Hon. Members more
immediately connected with the north of Ireland. It
seemed to be forgotten that there were provinces in the
south of Ireland whose loyalty, although they themselves
might not be in so thriving a position, and he might say
their religion and virtue, were quite on a par with any
other portion of Ireland.
" Their loyalty is still the same,
Whether they win or lose the game."

—(Hear, hear.) There were landlords who would
not throw up their commissions, and there were
tenants who would not take up their muskets
in the event of the House passing this Bill.
Now, what did the Noble Lord do? He simply gave
them to understand that the men trust yield either their
money or their lives, and in that way did he
perform the promise which he had rendered to the
country. The Noble Lord might declare that he had
done all that in him lay to fulfil his promise originally;
but he (Mr. Osborne) for his own part conceived that
the House had a right to consider what amount
of discretion had been exercised in the ful-
filment of the duty which the Noble Lord
and his Government owed to the country.
The Noble Lord had said that the only plan for the
relief was to draw a sum from the Consolidated Fund
for the relief of the people, and he had proposed to the
House a grant of 50,0004 from that source. But in re•
spect of this grant the Right Hon. Baronet the Member
for Ripon had asked a question, and put a position
which, as coming from him, was peculiarly significant.
It was well known that the Right Hon. Baronet and the
Noble Lord had been in treaty for the former to take a
place in the present Cabinet, and the question, therefore,
of the Right Honourable Baronet was particularly
effective, when he inquired as to whether
this was to be the last grant of the same kind.—(Hear,
hear.) The Noble Lord knew too well that he could
give no such guarantee. And what was the effect of
the Right Honourable Baronet's suggestion, that the
Noble Lord should come down with some comprehensive
measure, and some effectual relief for the people.
He came down with the information that the com-
prehensiveness of his measures would include wide dis-
tricts in the nerth in the ruin of the west, without saving
any of the community in the distress in which they were
involved, and that the grant of 50,0001. would save the
people from absolute starvation only for a few weeks.
—(Hear.) He would ask the Noble Lord what the
Members of that House had continually foretold, and
he would tell him that the Government were responsible
not only for the future, but for the want of foresight
and prudence which ought to have been exercised.--
(Hear, hear.) For himself, he should say that as a
Itlember of Parliament he was not satisfied with such
replies, and he could tell him neither would that
House be.—(Hear, hear.) It might be all very well

to ask the House what more could be done ; gut he
must respectfully tell them that so long as the present
system continued, no improvement could possibly be ex-
pected.—( Hear, hear.) So long as the members of the
Carlton Club were unable to drive out or control those
of Brookes', so long would this evil continue and increase.
—(Hear, bear.) It was, in fact, adopting the old adage,
Date oitolum Bellisario.—(Cheers.) I he Noble Lord was
willing to grant a Committee of Inquiry, and he ex-
pected to obtain the repayment of the grant by a
rate in aid (Hear, hear) but he could tell the
Noble Lord that no man in his senses in the west of Ire-
land ever expected to realise this amount through a rate in
aid, and he must warn the House, whatever might be said,
that they would never realise more than 2,000L0r 3,0001.
from any such source. In fact the system must be alto •
gether altered or no benefit could possibly accrue. When
the plan for a Committee had been proposed last year
the whole of the Irish Members to a man had voted
against it, with the exception of Lord Portarlington, and
the Committee was to all intents and purposes a caput
mortuum. He knew of no precedent except one in Gil Bias
for the course pursued by the Noble Lord at the head of
the Government. He must now say one word on the rate
in aid. The House supposed they were doing something
like charity on this subject, but he was sure they were
doing no such thing. The Noble Lord had referred to
twenty-one unions that would be thrown on this rate
in aid, but he did not tell them how many
other unions would be throw upon it. The House
might depend upon it, if this measure passed, they
would have more than three times twenty-one unions
thrown upon the rate. He did not believe that the
Noble Lord bad given this measure a proper
consideration, and he trusted, therefore, he would recon-
sider it. It might he asked what other objections he
had to the measure? To that question he would an-
swer in the words of Lord Hule, "that the plaster
was not so large as the sore."—(Hear, hear.) He catied
upon the Noole Lord before the resolution passed
to state to that House how these unions
were to be supported when the rate in aid was worn
out, and the landlords of the north and south of
Ireland were eaten up by it. The Noble Lord had
said that the landlords of Ireland were exempted
from income-tax, and therefore they must pay a
6d. rate. Adam Smith's canon was, that the people
must pay to the rates according to their income ; he
joined with him in that opinion, but he asserted that
tt was no argument to say that, because Ireland
was exempted from the income-tax, that, therefore, the
landlords were to be subjected to a 6d. rate. The proper
course to pursue was for the Noble Lord to propose the
appointment of a Committee to inquire into the subject.
The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Cork called upon
the House to tax the landlords, for they had no friends,
and were the only parties who could pay this rate in aid.
—(Hear, and laughter.) But the lion. Gentleman,
when he talked in that way, did not take into his

consideration what these unfortunate landlords, who
had no friends, had been going through.—(Hear, hear.)
He called upon the House to lay an additional taxation
on the rateable property of Ireland which had gone
through the privations of three successive famines, and
had suffered by that means a loss amounting to no less
than 16,000,0001. Was the Honourable Gentleman
aware of these things when he talked of taxing
the landlords only, or was be aware that these very
landlords at the present moment were not receiving a
quarter of their rents ?—(Hear, hear.) He knew a
gentleman, a Member of the House, who in the course
of the last year had paid no less than 5,000/.
to the poor rates of his parish, while many
others had paid 8001. and 1,0001., and yet the
Honourable Member for Cork came down to the
House ready to tax these unfortunate landlords because
he said they were accustomed to it and ought to pay.
Do not tax any other property, said the Hon. Gentle-
man, but he (Mr. Osborne) was convinced that if the poor-
law was to succeed in Ireland it must be remodelled
and revised, and the rates must be levied upon all pro-
perty that could be made available for the support of the
poor, no matter whether it was composed of land, mort-
gages on land, or money in the funds.—(Hear, hear.)
The fundholder must be compelled to pay in the
same proportion as the landholder, but the House ought
to take some guarantee that the rates to be so
levied should not be spent :in eleemosynary grants,
but that they should be directed to the pur-
poses of home colonization and assisting the
people to emigrate to some of cur flourishing coloniee.
—(Hear.) In fact care must bo taken that the money
was not thrown into a bottomless pit, as hitherto it had
been, leaving the people still wretched, and the
country still in a state of pauperism.—(Hear, hear.)
With regard to this rate iu aid itself; he wished
the English
.Members to bear in mind that
the principle of a national rate was very
cinch fancied in this country. Apply that
principle to Ireland, and some good • might
be accomplished, but, at all events, if they persisted in
thvowing the whole burden of the poor upon the land the
tin ►e would soon come when Ireland would be entirely de-
peulent upon England.—(Hear, hear.) He agreed with