The Sun.
London, England, 1847-05-11 00:00:00

APPOINTMENTS.

Captain—W. H. Hall, to the Dragon.
Commander—C. J. Balfour, to study steam at the Wool-
wich factory.
Lieutenants—R. D. Aldrich, to the Howe; Sir Godfrey
Webster, to study steam at the Woolwich factory; E. A.
Glynne. to command the Dart, new brigantine; J. F. Slight,
E. A. T. Lloydd, and T. D. A. Fortescue, to the Dragon ; H.
M. Kinsman, to the Avenger.
Masters—W. Archer, to the Avenger; J. Chambers
(acting), to the Dragon.
Paymaster and Purser—T. E. Gould, to the Dragon.
Secretary—George P. Martin, clerk, to be Secretary to
Commodore Lambert.

Surgeons—James Carmichael, M.D., to the Howe; John
Davidson,secon Second
Masters-Edward
t he aon .
. Tucker, to
Wil-
liam Moorman, to the Howe; G. H. Green, er the
toTtheribplrea•gon.
Assistant- Surgeons—James Peters and Henry Piers, to the
Poictiers ; Thomas Kincaid, Frederick Joseph Brown, M.D.,
and W. B. Dalty, to the Howe; Nicholas Littleton, to Green-
wich Hospital; J. T. Trousdell, to Plymouth Hospital; John
G. Campbell, to the Dragon.
Clerks—O. D. Sibbald, to the Avenger; J. M. Moore to
the Caledonia.
Masters' Assistants—Robert Martin Curry, to the Dragon ;
Alfred Forester, to the Bloodhound.
The Majestic, 80 guns, building in Chatham, is to be pro-
ceeded with so as to be launched this year.
Wootwicit, MAY B.—Lieutenant Louis, two sergeants,
two corpocals, two drummers, and seventy privates of the
Woolwich division of the Royal. Marines, embarked at Wool-
wich Dockyard at twelve o'clock to-day in the African
Steam-vessel, for conveyance to Sheerness, to join for service
in her Majesty's ship Howe, 120 guns, commissioned at that
port by Captain Sir James Stirling. The remainder of the
Marine force required for the Howe will be made up from the
second division of the Royal Marine Artillery.
The Atholl troop-ship, Commander Peam, disembarked
Major James's company of Royal Artillery, at seven o'clock
this morning, at the dockyard, and they marched to the
garrison. Major .James, Lieutenant Anson, and Lieutenant
Power arrived with the company from Malta, and disem-
barked at the same time. The Atholl will proceed to Dept-
ford to take in stores and return to Woolwich to embark
Captain Bingham's and Captain Fitzmayer's companies, both
of the Bth battalion, for a passage to Ceylon, to relieve the
two companies at that foreign station.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT
HOUSE OF LORDS, May 10.
Ths LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool-
sack at Five o'clock.
THREATENING LETTERS BILL.
Lord DENMAN proposed the second reading of this
Bill. In doing so, he said he conceived that his
motion would not met with the slightest objectio'
us it was to amend the present anomalous state of the
law with respect to persons sending threaten-
ing letters for the purpose of extorting money.
The existing law was so imperfect, that unless
a letter of this nature was actually addressed
to the person from whom money was sought to
be extorted no offence was committed, and the
object of the Bill was to render it equally criminal to
send a letter with the view of extorting money from a
person to that person's relations or friend-.
The Bill was then read a second time.
THE TOWNSEND PEERAGE.
The LORD CHANCELLOR presented a petition
from a gentleman named Charles Townsend, "coin-
moldy called Lord Charles Townsend and Marquis of
Townsend," playing for an alteration of the Act passed
three years ago with respect to the Townsend Peerage.
CORN.
The. Earl of HARDWICKE gave notice that he
would ask her Majesty's Ministers two questions, first,
whether they knew what quantity of wheat was in Cele
country ; and, second, what Quantity they expected to
be imported.

RATING IN IRELAND.
The Earl of ST. GERMANS presented a petition
from the rate-pa) ers in the County Down, praying that
the rates shiaitd be as usually charged, one-half upon
the landlord, and one ha:f upon the tenant.
THE FAG I ORY BILL.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented several pe-
titions from various parts of the country in favour of the
Factory Bill
PUBLIC-HOUSES IN SCOTLAND.
The Duke of BUCCLEUCH presented a petition
praying that their Lordships would take into considera-
tion some measure for licensing public-houses in Scotland.
ARMY SERVICE BILL.
On the motion of Lord STANLEY, the further read-
ing of this Bill was postponed till Fricay next.
LANDED PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL.
The report on this Bill was postponed till to-morrow.
POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
On the order of the day for going into Committee
upon this Bill being read,
The Earl of WICKLOW rose to propose an amend-
ment to the 20th clause, of which he had given notice,
but was interrupted by
Lord STANLEY, who said that he wished to ask her
Majesty's Government whether they intended to insert a
clause in this Bill respecting electoral division. He would
put it to the Government whether they did not think
that by argreeieg to the words " electoral divisions"
after the word " union" they would render more effectual
the working of this measure.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was understood
to say that power already exist, d to alter the extent
of the electoral divisions.
Lord STANLEY complained that the Noble I:arquis
had not answered his question. He thought that the
Commissioners should hare the power to make those
alterations, and not only that the Commissioners should
have the power, but that the Executive should give the
Commissioners authority to exercise it, and to reduce
the area of unions of large electoral divisions.
Lord BROUGHAM said, that under the law of
settlement, power was given to divide parishes in such
cases as those which were of great extent, and lie
thought that similar power ought to be conferred in the
present Bill.
After a few words from the Marquis of Lansdowne,
Lord Clancarty, and Lord Recicsdale,
The Earl of WICKLOW said that he was -quite
aware of the existence of the power to which the
Noble Marquis (the Marquis of Lansdowne) had referred.
He wanted to impress upon their Lordships what ap-
peared to him to Le a grievous injustice, namely, throw-
ing upon certain rural districts the whole weight of the
support of the pauper population of the towns. He
considered that the pauper population of an union
should be supported by the union at large. Un-
less this were the case, the expense which
would be thrown upon the towns would be enormous ;
in fact, property in towns would be destroyed altogether.
After the opinion of their Lordships the
other night he conceived that their Lordships
would accede to the following amendment :
" In clause 20 to insert, after the word ' repealed' in
twelfth line, the words and that it shall be lawful
for the said Commissioners, when they shall see
fit, to form into separate electoral divisions towns
with a population of three thousand, or upwards.' "
He said 3.000, because be believed small towns of that
size would be best accommodated by such an arrange-
ment.

After a desultory conversation, in which Lord Moat-
eagle, Lord Campbell, and Lord Brougham took part,
Earl GREY said, the clause which already existed in
the Rill was word for word the same with the amend-
ment of the Noble Earl, as far as could be.
After a few words from the Marquis of Clancarty.
Earl Grey, and the Marquis of Lansdowne,
Earl FITZWILLIAM said, the amendment of the
Noble Earl raised questions of a most important charac-
ter—how, and on what principle they were to form the
new communities which they were about to form in Ire-
land? The Noble Earl (Grey) thought the Commis-
sioners had power enough, and the amendment had the
effect of extending that power. He asked any Noble
Lord whether he thought the Commissioners under the
clause of the Bill would act in the way proposed by the
Noble Earl? What he asked to know was why the re-
lief of the poor should fall upon the electoral division
and not upon the whole union? That was a question
deserving attention. Another was, whether the town
poor ought to be relieved by the country division also,
or ought rather to be separated from the country. These
were important questions. He said he would support
the amendment of the Noble Earl.
The Earl of CLARICARDE said the whole question
under the present amendment was the area of the elec-
toral rating, and all that was meant by the Noble Earl
in his amendment was, not that he differed from the
principle of the clause in the Bill, but that he wished to
suggest some duties to the guardians or commissioners
for acting upon. But many other suggestions as well
as this might be made. He thought then it would be
far better to leave the commisiouers in power as they
were by the Bill.
The amendment was then put to their Lordships, and
was lost without a division.
The Earl of WICKLOW then rose to propose ano-
ther amendment, of which he had given notice, but after
a few words from the Marquis of Lansdowne, the Noble
Earl withdrew his amendment.
The clause was then agreed to.
Clauses 22 and 23 were then agreed to.
On the 24th clause being proposed,
Lerd NIONTEAGLE said that if they attempted to
remove the children from those workhouses, they would
deprive them of all chances of education ; and, on the
other hand, if they retained them, they would be bring-
ing up a pauper population which they could not turn
to any account. He would suggest that those Poor-law
Commissioners should have the power of effecting a
union of unions, and that the education of industry
should be superadded to that of intellectual education.
Thus the children would be properly educated and pro
perly taken care of. He merely wished to suggest the
insertion of such a clause as the one ho had prepared.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE admitted the im-
portance of the Noble Lord's recommendation, and inti
mated that her Majesty's Government were favourable
to the introduction of industrial as well as educational
training into the schools. He would, however, take the
suggestion into consideration.
Clauses up to 30 having been agreed to,
Lord STANLEY rose to propose the insertion of the
following clause in the Bill :—That, save as herein-
after provided, it shall not be lawful for any occupier of
rateable property holding under any lease or agreement
to be made or entered into after the j assing of this Act,
nor for any tenant at will, or from year to year, after
the Ist day of January, 1849, to deduct from the rent
to which he may be liable in respect of such property
any amount whatever in respect of any rate which may
be imposed at any period subsequent to the date of such
lease or agreement, or subsequent to such Ist day of Ja-
nuary, as the case may be. That all the provisions of
the Act 6th and 7th Victoria, c. 92, intituled, " An Act
for the further Amendment of an Act for the more effec-
tual Relief of the Destitute Pcor in Ireland," for the
charge and recovery of rates upon property rated to a
net annual value not exceeding 41, shall be deemed and
taken to apply to the like property rated to a nettahnenes.!
value value not exceedingunfit;
51. ; providedsor
holdingnevr
and be it enacted, that no immediatealee;
or entered into
any lease or agreement to be mace
be authorised to de
after the passing of this Act,
duct from any rent by. him.payable under such lease or
agreement to his superiorlanpdmloayrdb,
eaniympamosoeudnattwahhaytepveef
in respect of any rate which
riod subsequent to the date of such lease or agreement.
He said the time had now arrived when it became his
duty to submit for the adoption
.of their Lordships the
amendment
of which he had given notice. He was
quite sure that their Lordships, proceeding with the
discussion, and with the amendment, of this most im-
portant subject, would approach it without any reference
on their pi!rt, or without any influence on their minds
misapprehension and misrepresentation which
fromhad the
been industriously circulated, not only within the
walls of that House, with regard to the object as well as
the motive which had led him to propose the clause—
that they would not consider whether the vote which he
asked them to come to, should confer upon them a mo-
mentary popularity, or the reverse of popularity—that
they would not either bo influenced by those insinua-
tions which had been very liberally circulated with re-
gard to the probable political consequences of their
Lordships' adoption of the motion which he had
submitted for their consideration and adoption. (Hear.)
It had been stated that his was a landlord's amendment.
Now, he denied that altogether—(Cheers)—nay more,
he should be ashamed of himself if, connected as he m
with property in Ireland, he submitted to their Lord-
ships' consideration a clause intended or calculated, ex-
clusively or even primarily, to benefit that class to
he himself belonged.--(Hear.) He shculd be yet more
ashamed of himself, if that advantage were to be pur-
chased by any corresponding advantage upon any. other
class of scciety ; but his firm conviction was, that so far
from being a landlord's question, if it be any
thing it was
especially a labourer's, and not a landlord's question.—
(Loud cheers.) The object whichhad in view was—
and which he was sure all their Lordshipse had in view—
was how they Could best conduct this perilous experi-
ment, upon which they were called upon to enter, upon
which you had decided and notwithstanding
all the objections, and all the difficulties,
and all the dangers, he thought, upon the ,
whole they had wisely decided to enter, but it was for
their consideration, and it was important that they
should all consider it calmly and deliberately, how to
conduct that experiment, so as to render the property

of Ireland", test able to bear the burden, which was
about to be thrown upon it ; and best ale to bear this
burden of the employm.et of those labourers whom they
desired to rescue from a pressure upon ths poor rates.
Ile was not then deter red by any of the considerations
to which he had referred, from submitting. to heir
Lordships an amendment, which, in his conscience, be
believed was nesessary for the safe working of this
measure. He was not even deterred from submitting
this amendment, by the rather unusual intimatien con-
tained in that extraordinary message from the House of
Commons, which was conveyed to their Lordships a few
nights ago—(Cheers and laughter)—by my Noble Friend
the Noble Earl on the cross benches : who, for the
purpose of influencing your Lordships' deliberations
and decisions upon this measure, thought it necessary to
state to your Lordships that he was in a positcrioe
to state from authority that Earl Line, In had chant
his his mind upon the subject of an Irish poor-law.—(Cheers
and laughter.) Undoubtedly, recent events had wade it
perhaps convenient that when there was any general
change in the House of Commons En masse, early led'
fruition should be given to your Lordships of such
change, but he (Lord Stanley) with all the respect which
he had for his Noble Friend on the cross benches, and it
was most unfeigned, :and the other Noble Lord to when'
he r, ferred, he hardly thought that such an intimation
was likely to have an undue influerce on your Lord-
ship's deliberations, wh, n his Noble Friend on the cross
benches, stated that he was authorised, on authority, t 0
state fur the information of your Lordships, that Lo rd
Lincoln had changed his opinions.—(Laughter.)
was also farther deterred from bringing forward thi!
question, than by that which had much greater weit,h4
In his mind—namely, the expressed objection of rel
Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Brougham) whore he
did not see in his place, and also from the
objections of the Noble Marquis Cbartsi
downe) on the opposite benches. He rePeate
their
that he was not even deterred by
objections, but he thought the objections of his Noble
and Learned Friend had reference more particularly to
what were fallaciously announced to be the objectthe
ions
to the measure. The Noble Marquis, in stating
ground of his objections, stated what he (Lord Stanlen
considered a most dangerous principle to enunciate of
which a public man could be guilty, nansely•--that thel,
must legislate, not upon principles, but upon impress's%
—(Hear.) This was a matter of too great consequeitece
for them to consult impressions ; they must look to tta
effects—to consequences. They must see that theirete:
gislation did not obtain momentary popularity. but taaa'
it would lead to placing the country out of hazard'alise
enable them to legislate safely for her defence ; f
felt convinced that, unless they adopted the princn'r of
the amendment he had intrusted to thew, they ce" n
hope that this experiment could be conducted
the most dangerous and cruel results. He askedittfe
to deal with Irish property as they would think '"The
to deal with English property.—(Loud cheers-)
great body of them, perhaps, were unconnected with
property in Ireland ; they were called upon to legist
with regard to that country, and he asked the`-:,
before they decided, to place their hands or"'
their hearts, without
and say whether they would doe
to propose, or whether they could carry: les
effect a poor-law for England based upon the prineiP s
of this poor-law ?—(Renewed cheering)—and deprives;
of the safeguard which they had in England agai-,:b
abuse.—(Hear, hear.) Why, if they could not, r
'ismhopwoseof
hope of success, could what
yt
what conscience, with
,1 that
which they knew they could not impose upon Englan t
At all events they must show him that this experimen
re for
was dangerous for England, and that it was safe
etc
Ireland, before they rejected his proposition ; the, inie-ss
urpeoanamlrewliatnh-W1:;
point out the circumstances which rendered it
e;tea
injurious to Ireland than to England. On then' rVhen
the onus of proof, and cot Is, on r
they asked him to cramp the relief to the Pe°.
in Ireland, be asked them, on the othal
side, to show that that system of relief which was
safe tor England, was safe for Ireland, and would be ac,
companied by a safeguard. They must explain the, lit
fereuce. The measure which they were about to so*.
would, by the confessionof heavily or"'
every man, press tees
the parishes, and their object was—and his main otel
was—to relieve too great a pressure upon the poor rat;
not by a straightened and niggardly parsimony, rot by
withdrawing relief from those really destitute• not jut
pushing and grinding down relief to a minimum rega
in rural districts, but to supersede the necessity for
11),oeur
perism, by furnishing the means for independent la heir
—(Loud cheers.) Now let him first recal to thich
Lordship's attention what was the principle weants
the Legislature imposed on the landlords and tenants
the
with respect to the payment of the rates? its t"--eeltt-
existed, the rate was in the first instance levied e:hig
sively on the tenant, but when he paid his rent to the
landlord he deducted not one-half of the amount °
which
rate, but one-half of the poundage upon his rent, wo'
on
was equal to one-half of the poundage charged
.oPthe
the rateable value of the laud. Such at this period Isthat
practice. He had heard many Noble Lords betty
n
n
this burden was, after all, equally distributed betwee
the landlord and the tenant. It was no such thienger-y
(Cries of " Hear, hear.") It was notorious to every
(Cries
one of their Lrdships conversant with the „
land
of Ireland, it was notorious that the rated valise„ e
was invariably upon an average below the fair rent•Ta
ate
ue
of the land. He believed.he should not much exagger
when he stated, that in some cases a piece of land WO
rated at 201. • yet, without bein overrated, it was worth
301. ; still the'
tenant only paid rates for the 201., et
which it was rated. A shilling rate was levied upon
the tenant, and he paid one shilling upon each pound Of
his rate-201. ; but he was entitled to deduct Is. 21
from his rent
to defray the expense of the rate, and he
deducted, not 205., but thirty sixpences, or 155., from
his landlord, out of the 20s. ehich he had been called
upon to pay. (Hear.) The result was this, that one-fourth
of the rate was borne by the tenant, and three-fourths
was borne by the landlord.—(Hear, hear.) He did think
that this, was exaggerated; it was rather below than
above the mark. The occupying tenant paid one-third,
and the landlord the remaining two-thirds.—(Heat',
hear.) Now, the relations between landlord and tenant
were far better understood here than in Ireland, and the
condition of the tenant was eminently expensive
England to what it was in Ireland. Farmers, for in•
stance, were larger here than in Ireland. lie should be
content to rest the whole question oa this ground.
lie asked those who considered the poor-law
advantageous in England, what would be the condition.
the social and moral condition of a parish, in which the
farmer should have the power to levy rates, two-thirds
of those rates having to be paid by the landlords?---
(Loud cheers.) Ho did not ask them what they thought
would be the effect upon the landed property—that wasf
an important question ; but it was not the only one
bot
great importance ; and he asked them what they thereugr
would be the social condition of the labourer ?—("e,a of'
What would be their state—what would be the elle% t
the magnitude or diminution of pauperism in t
pa
arish ? He asked them what inducement there woo
be to the farmer to employ additional hands and to me"
improvements upon his holdings if he had not the alter-
native, as in England, that unless he employed ther
he would have to pay for their support in the
union, but that if he did not comply, then they roust be
supported by the parish, out of rates lei ied indirectly frons.
his soil. He was certain that if in England Oda'
attempted to introduce such a measure, that it w"--
, lead infallibly to the destruction add
of the moral and sou'
condition oc , that parish, to the destruction of inne:
, of
fnthdeent labour, to the increase not only of the rates, he:
ate number of paupers
; that it would absolutely On'.
andhil all exertions at the improvement of that parish,
it would be overwhelmed by flood of universal
pauperism. Was there a a
ships man among their wee,
I who would deny that that would be the whew-
result of of such a measure in Eland? Was there'
among their Lordships prepared fellow P th."
to u ter
legislation by assenting to a similar measure
England? And upon what ground did they refuse to
~t
do so? If they did not, the farmers in England relig"i
say, " This is what the farmers in Ireland have obtaine,-,
why ought we not to be placed in a similar position?
They would say that if the landlords in Ireland we'i
compelled to pay the rates that the landlords in Engler'
should do the same.—(Hear, hear.) Now, was that
wise, was it politic, was it just, was it safe to create
such an anomalous state of things between to o countries?
Let them tell him upon what ground, upon what argument',
they could resist the demand to grant them the stone
privilege which they were willing to allow to the Irish
tenants ? Well, if none of their Lordships would deny
the character of the state of things in England, let thera
tell what was the safeguard wbich they could rely upon
in introducing such a system as this into Ireland. Was
Ireland more wealthy, were her means of permanent
employment greater than those of England ; were the
relations between landlord and tenant more confidential,
more thrifty, and was she more capable of employing
labour than encouraging pauperism ? But it was noto-
rious that the reverse of all this was the fact.
If there was security in the relations between the land-
lords and tenants, and that that security existed la
England, he saw no reason why the law with respect to
the two countries should not be assimilated. He did
not know whether he would not venture to trust such a
power as that proposed by tl e Bill, to Scotch proprietor+
and Scotch tenants. Looking at the intelligence Of
the farmers, to the habits of the country, ed to
the extent of their farms—their knowledge of "'en.
respective duties—it could be carried into effect with
more advantage; but he should be sorry to trust to the
operation of such a measure in En an
d (Hear.)
England.` I
But he was certain of this that in Ireland woUld be
bsolute
abso!utely and entirely ruinous—(Hear)—
and a
ruin not only to the landlord, not to the landlord prima.'
rily, but absolute and entire ruin to the whole pr
ropertYlass
of the country, whilst the plan he proposed would create
a body of independent labourers, and also a c
of farmers. If there was a hope of effecting this objecte
and without this object there was no hope for the socilit
regeneration of Ireland—if there was a hope of effecting
this object it was by promoting the interest of the °ea;
pier, by increasing the amount of labour on the Irina
which he occupied. Really the principle enu-
merated by that Bill was so Utopian, not to sal.
so monstrous, that he could not believe that
would be entertained by such an assembly
this. If it could not be safely applied to England it Was
for them to show that it could be safely applied to Ire.
land. But he wanted to know what the circumstances
were which rendered the adoption of the same principt„
to both cour tries dangerous. Perhaps he might be to!?
that they could not trust the Irish landlords to Off:
agreements with their tenants. That really was
is
only argument he had heard against the principle okra!
amendment. He did not wish to take the burden
the shoulders of one body and to place it thia
shoulders of another, but he sought to affirm to ee
Bill a principle which he believed would be.
_T+
the greatest advantage to the people of Irentunut
He asked them to interfere with no existing agreerekeed
—he asked them to violate no present law. He
"eked
—he
them to interfere with no existing contract or agree
mo•
between the landlord and tenant as it stoocaber that
s the
raent but this he did ask thens:—That
principle is sound and just that the occupier, who alone