The Sun.
London, England, 1840-02-05 00:00:00

EVENING EDIT I ON .

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county, among whom, he understood, were persons of
all political parties. Mr. Pare had called up in him the
day after his name had been brought before their Lord-
ships, in consequence of a summons which he had given
hint He (the Marquis of Normanby) had put to him
these questions, arising out of that discussion. The first
was whether he was present at a meeting of Socialists on
any occasion, when the question was the existence of a
God, and whether also he had heard the circumstance'
alluded to by the Right Rev. Prelate, viz.—the question
put as to the responsibility of the murderer of the late
Lard Norburv, when the answer given was, that such
person was not responsible, and to each of these inquiries,
Mr. Pare gave a distinct and specific denial. But he
(the Marquis of Normanby) had told him that his answers
to these questions, though clearly removing the impute-
tation cast upon him reapectine them, would not, he con-
ceived, influence his decision' on the ultimate question,
whether a person who during the time he had filled the
()Mee of Superintendent Registrar had also taken the office
of Vice President of such an Association as that, was a
proper person to be continued in it. He had told him also
it was not necessary then to enter into any question as to
speculative opinions, but he believed it would not be denied
their system would overthrow the frame work of society.
But putting out of view all these considerations, he still
thought that a person who had so ostensibly put himself
forward in such proceedings was not a proper per-,on to be
patronized by those whose business and determination it
Was to maintain the existing order of things, and that he
only postponed his decision on the subject till he had given
him an opportunity of answering those particular imputa-
tions which were thrown out on that occasion. Now,
with respect to the clergymen, all their Lordships
who were present when the Right Reverend Pre-
late had first alluded to him, would imagine
thin person was a retiring Minister of the Gospel, who came
unwillingly forward, but who had felt it his duty to watch
in secret what was going on, and felt that it would be
utter destruction to him to notify the proceedings on that
occasion. What would their Lordships say when he told
them this Clergyman was the very opponent of Mr. Mur-
phy, the lecturer, on that occasion ? What would their
Lordships say when further informed, that at the time the
preliminaries of the meeting for discussion between Mr.
Foy (for that was the name of the Clergyman) and Mr.
Murphy was arranged, Mr. Pare was invited by both par-
ties to take the chair ? and he therefore said again that
this Clergyman had not done his duty in taking any part
on that occasion, and also in not informing his diocesan or
the Government upon the subject, which would have led
to the immediate consideration of Mr. Pate's fitness for
his office. He would add, that Mr. Pare was thanked
by Mr. Foy for his conduct upon the occasion, and that
be (the Marquis of Normanby) was not defending
the conduct of Mr. Pare, which he thought, holding the
office which he did, was very improper. When he had
stated that he conceived the Right Rev. Prelate was on
Several particulars much misinformed, he had also stated,
and as appeared most correctly, that if their Lordships
at once gave credence to all the details laid before
them, they would not act with due prudence. The
Right Rev. Prelate had stated the Government ought
to- be aware of these publications because they were
stamped, and then be had afterwards stated he had never I
seen any of these publications, and that they were not
stamped.—(« Hear, hear," from the Bishop of Exeter.) 1
The Right Rev. Prelate would have an opportunity pre-
sently
of explaining for what other purpose papers went
to the Stamp-office ; but he did say, even upon the docu-
ments placed in bis hands by Mr. Pare for his vindica-
tion, they were such as called for the very serious atten-
tion of the Government. (The Noble Marquis then read
and commented upon some extracts from those docu-
ments, and proceeded to say.) He was very careful in
any extracts which he read not to shock their Lordships
by a repetition of the language which he thought had been
very unnecessarily intruded upon them—( Hear, hear,
hear)-- but what he had read showed sufficiently
the principles of the Society were such as to prevent any
member of it being employed by a Government determined
to maintain existing institutions. With respect to the par-
ticular Institution to which the Right Rev. Prelate had
alluded, and the doctrines which he stated it professed, all
that he could say was, that he hoped the Magistrates would
act on the advice stated by the Noble Duke to have been
given by him to the county which had the good fortune to
possess him as Lord Lieutenant. Certainly such doc-
trines as those mentioned by the Right Rev. Prelate were
illegal, and the Government would act against them. Now,
with respect to the present state of the Society, the Right
Rev. Prelate bad said, and he hoped erroneously, that it
had lately much increased. It had been a great length of
time in existence, but the Right Rev. Prelate appeared to
have taken for his authority the beasts of the disciples
of the Society. He found it stated in the New Moral
Woad, that, as long back as 1836, Mr. Owen, in his
address to King William the Fourth, had stated that old
prejudices were then tottering, previous to their final de-
struction ; and, language as sanguine as that was used in
a paper which was put into his hand yesterday, which was
called a " Manifesto of their Principles," in which Mr.
Owen stated the great encouragement he had received at
various periods of his life, and the great intimacy he had
enjoyed with the late Sir Robert Peel, and stated, that
on one occasion, when he was discussing his doctrines with
him, and while the present Sir Robert was engaged with
his companions, his father had said, " Robert does not yet
understand these extensive combinations—see if you can
niakw any impression on him after dinner." But Mr.
Owen found that the present Sir Robert was not able to
be convinced upon a subject so far beyond his then prac-
tical knowledge.—( Laughter.) Ttie Noble Lord then
referred to a publication, entitled " The Abomination of
Socialism Exposed," which he recommended to their
Lordships—which, he said, he had been much struck
with, but could not find, as it professed, that the quota-
tion; from the New Moral World tallied with that work.
From Mr. Barker, who was an iniefaiigable lecturer
against Socialism, they derived the consolation that So-
cialism was not upon the increase ; and all he could say
was, that, from all the observations he had made, and the
iuquiries he had instituted, he believed that in London
Socialism was decidedly on the decrease. He understood
that within the last few days, in consequence of the motion
of the Right Rev. Prelate, the meetings were more nume-
rously attended, but he believed that on the whole So-
cialism was on the decrease in London.--( Hear, hear.)
When, therefore, the Right Rev. Prelate took credit to
himself for checking these principles, he (Lord Normanby)
must be allowed to say, that, in his humble opinion, in-
stead of checking he had increased them. He had under-
stood that letters had been received from an individual at
Manchester since the Right Rev. Prelate had brought for-
ward the subject in that House, requesting to be furnished
with all the tracts that had been issued by the So-
cialists' society, as he expected that there would
be a very great demand for them, in consequence of
the motion of the Bishop of Exeter.—( Hear.) He
(Lord Normanby) had received from an individual he
would nut name, many tracts published by the Society
which contained the most blasphemous language. Imme-
diately upon receipt of these pamphlets, he laid them be-
fore the Law-officers of the Crown, and they were at the
present moment under the consideration of fee Govern-
ment.—( hear.) This, he could assure their Lordships, was
the first official information he had received of publica-
tions of this kind. Looking at all the circumstances
together, bearing in mind the whole of the statements that
had been made by the Right Rev. Prelate, he thought
that he had made no special ground for the extraordinery
interference, on the part of their Lordships, which he
asked, and he (the Marquis of Normanby) would put it
to their Lordships whether they thought any public good
would be accomplished by an inquiry before a Committee.
He trusted, in conclusion, that their Lordships would leave
this case to be dealt with according to law. If these
parties bad violated the law, then they would be dealt
with accordingly ; but if they had not, any inquiry upon
the subject would have no other effect than to give pub-
licity to doctrines that were highly objectionable.—
( Hear, hear. )
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY said it was not
his inteutian to enter at any length into' the discussion of
this question, at that late hour of the night, as he was
sensible that nothing he could say would add force to the
very clear and excellent statement which had been made
by his Right Rev. Friend, but he should think himself
wanting in his duty to that House, if he suffered that op-
portunity to pass without expressing his thanks to the Right
Rev. Prelate, for the course he had pursued. He thought
that he was entitled to the thanks of the country, for the
exposure he had made of the doctrines of those who profess
Socialist principles. He (the Archbishop of Canterbury)
was ready to admit that the number of Socialists was small,
as compared with the population of the country ; but he
would ask, were their numbers small when compared with
what they were a few years aeo ? At that time the indi-
vidual whose name had been so frequently men-
tioned that evening, entertained the same opinion as
he did at present, but he did not go so far as he did now
to develope them.—( Hear, hear.) The doctrines he now
professed went a great way to the total subversion of
society. At first his doctrines were considered of so ex-
traordinary a nature that it was thcught impossible they
could be carried into execution, but what was the fact at
present? Why, that this speculative enthusiast was at
the head of an association, formidable, not for its num-
bers, but for the principles it professed—principles cal-
culated to throw a moral pestilence over the whole land.
--( Hear, hear.) Secietie, were now established in every
Principal town in the kingdom, which had money at
their command to erect buildings in which they might
propound their pernicious doctrines. They had also mis-
sionaries at their command, who went all over the country
disseminating their pernicious tenets, and not only that
they had a general congress of all their lecturers, in order
that they might give an account of what had taken place
in the different parts of the country in which they
had been. When such had been the progress of this sect,
that associations such as he had adverted to had been esta-
blished in the course of a few years—when such progress
had been made, how was it possible that they could have
any security against its further extension, more especially
when they con• idercd the doctrines which they maintained,
and when they considered that its missionaries were active
and, in many instances, intelligent persons? The doctrines
broached by these Associations were of the most pernicious
tendency, and calculated to produce the worst effects in the
minds of the unlearned and ignorant. Any person joining
those Societies were lost to all those feelings which held
society together, namely, happiness in this life and a re-
ward for good works hereafter.—( Hear, hear.) He was
struck with horror when he considered the rapid progress
that Socialism had made, for rapid he must consider its
progress to be, when $,OOO individuals had petitioned from
Birmingham in its favour. What was the prevention for
this? Why, the duo execution of the law; and he thought
that the Noble Marquis who had stated that he had
adopted that course, was entitled to the thanks of the
country for having done so, but at the same time he must
be allowed to differ from him when he stated that h e
thought the publicity of this matter did more harm than
good. He could not agree with that, because he thought
the exp inure of the doctrines would do great good, and
tend to enlighten the eyes of the people to the absurdity of
them ; but then that exposure must be followed up by the
due execution of the law. lie believed that the feeling of
the
country would go with the Government in their attempts
to put down these Societies. With respect to the for-
bearance hitherto exercised, if the Government had no
official information then they had good reason for their for-

I bearance ; but it might be carried too far. In conclusion
he thought that the Right Rev. Prelate was entitlesl to
their Lordships' thanks and those of the cont./ ry for bring-
ing forward his motion.—( Hear. )
The Bishop of LL AND AFF observed that at the
meeting at Birmingham, which was presided over by Mr.
Pare, the Superintendent- Registrar, the most horrible
doctrines had been broached.
The Marquis of NO R MANB Y made a few observa-
tions in explanation, which were inaudible in the gallery.
Lord MELBOURNE would not have troubled the
House with any observations upon that occasion, but that
allusion had been made to him in the course of the debate,
The Right Rev. Prelate had read a letter of his for the
purpose of making a charge against the Government. Now
I hat letter only acknowledged that he (Lord M.) received
a letter from a clergyman enclosing a pamphlet of Mr.
Owen's. It was his usual course as a matter of courtesy
to acknowledge the receipt of letters addressed to him.
But if he acted indiscreetly in introducing Mr. Owen at
Court, he did not act so in confining his answer to the
clergyman to a mere acknowledgment. For if he had
answered otherwise, his answer might be made use of by
his political opponents. ( Hear, and a laugh.) He
thought it would be only discreet and prudent to
answer all such correspondence in a similar
manner.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He bad already
stated his opinion that the doctrines promulgated by those
people (the Socialists) were exceedingly dangerous, and
deserved the highest attention on the part of the Govern-
ment. In this discussion the Right Rev. Prelate had the
advantage of him, as he could not argue the matter with-
out seeming to countenance the opinions of those men.
Those opinions, in respect to religion, were impious and
pernicious. In other respects they were highly immoral
and mischievous. But he could hardly say that they were
illegal. As to the doctrine of the " necessity of human
action," that was held not by Mr. Owen and his followers
alone, but by a class of religious Christians of superior
devotion. He did not know how that doctrine was recoil-
eileable with responsibility. That was a metaphysical dif-
ficulty which he could never understand. As to the state-
ment of the Socialists, that the people were all in misery,
and that nothing but their adoption of Mr. Owen's sys
tom could save them—that was said by every one who had a
new system to recommend, or a favourite doctrine to pro-
mulgate. Mr. Attwood took up the question of the cur-
, rency, on which he held peculiar views, and he told the
people that they were sunk in misery, from which they
could be relieved only by adopting his plans. Mr. Oastler
told the people also, that they were in profound misery,
occasioned by the amendment of the Poor-laws ; and that
they were justified in having recourse to any means, for the
purpose of compelling the Legislature to alter the system.
It was, in fact, the great evil of the day, that people sat
down and concocted a plan of their own, which they wished
to force upon the country as the only remedy for all
evils and all abuses, and would stop at nothing to carry
their opinions into practice. He believed the opinions of
the Socialists to be highly dangerous, but he doubted the
propriety of the course which their Lordships were taking.
He thought with his Noble Friend, the Secretary of State,
that they were giving the greatest encouragement to this
system, by sending up the address. Ile was charged with
having done great mischief by introducing Mr. Owen to
Court, but their Lordships were about to introduce him to
Court a second time—( Laughter)—and in a manner which
would give him much greater and stronger encourage-
' ment. He (Lord M.) had perhaps been indiscreet in being
the person to introduce him, and he was sorry for having
done so. But those people were now calling for inquiry
into their views, and their Lordships were exactly meet-
ing their aims. If, by inquiry, their Lordships meant that
the Government should keep its eye upon them, very well.
But if they meant that a Commission should issue—(No,
no, from the Opposition)—there was nothing the So-
cialists would desire more than an opportunity of giving
their opinions publicly in an authenticated form. He
thought that the course which their Lordships were pur-
suing was only giving a mischievous importance to the
Society. But after the debate which had already taken
place, he would not divide the House if the Right Rev.
Prelate was disposed to press, his motion .
The Duke of WELLINGTON said, that although
much had been said about the notoriety of Socialism,
he had heard nothing at all about it until a letter was sent
to him requesting him to present a petition on the subject
:)f Mr. Owen's introduction to the Queen. He declined to
present that petition, because he knew nothing of the sub-
ject; but books were afterwards sent to him, from which
he learned what Socialism was, and he could answer for it
that the statements of the Right Rev. Prelate were not
at all exaggerated.—( Hear, hear.) As the Lord Lieu-
tenant of the county in which he resided, he had thought
't his duty to make inquiries, and he found that there
was established a large Socialist Institution, for which
500 acres of land had been purchased-4 Hear, hear.) He
found that there was a great deal in their proceedings
of which the law could not take notice ; but there
in
eras a great deal which called for attention their bias-
phemies and their public revilings of the religion of the
land—indeed of all religion. He held in his hand a peti-
tion from the Magistrates of the county, from which it ap-
peared that matters had gone beyond the point at which
you could say that nothing should be done, on the ground
that those proceedings were beneath notice. Something
more must be done. The people must be made to under-
stand that the notice of the Legislature had been brought
to their institutions, and that they looked upon them other-
wise than with favour.—( Hear.) They should under-
stand that wherever a breach of the law took place,
it should be punished.—(Cries of " Hear.") When
that was understood throughout the county, the public
peace would be less disturbed, and public decency would
he less outraged by the acts of those institutions. He was
perfectly satisfied, if this motion were allowed to pass, to
let the matter remain in the hands of the Government, to
whom he would promise every assistance in his power, by
making inquiries in the county of which he was Lord-
Lieutenant.-_( Hear, hear. )
The Marquis L ANS D 0 WNE would not oppose the
motion on the ground stated by the Noble Duke. lie
thought that the discussion had come to that pass,
that it would operate mischievously throughout the
country, if it should be supposed that those matters
had been brought under the attention of the Legisla-
ture, and that a deaf ear had been turned to them,
more especially if there were people capable of asserting
that the Government turned an indifferent ear to the com-
plaints because they were not unfavourable to the abomi-
nations which the Right Rev. Prelate had under-stated.
—( Hear, hear.) But he agreed with the motion only upon
this understanding, that the Government had no part in
giving to those proceedings a publicity which they ought
never to have obtained He believed that in other coun-
tries equally pernicious and abominable systems had died
away ;n consequence of the wise policy of the Governments,
elm followed a different course from that which was now
urged upon this Government. He did not know whether
the Right Rev. Prelate had polluted himself so much in the
doctrines of St. Simonianism as he had in studying those of
Socialism. The Right Rev,. Prelate shook his head ;
he ( Lord Lansdowne) was not very learned in those mat-
ters, but he knew that in France doctrines not less abomi-
nable than Socialism were promulgated for some years, and
that now, without any effort of the law, they had fallen into
insignificance, if they had not altogether died away. The
mischievous activity which urged Mr. Owen, of whose
motives he could say nothing, had carried him to America,
where his doctrines found followers but for a very short
time, and did not now exist at all. It was thus with all

those delusions which from time to time possessed the
minds of some men, and infected a few. If they were al-
lowed to wear themselves out they soon passed away; but
persecution only gave them notoriety and favour. He did
not say that where the laws were violated they should not
be vindicated ; hut the effect of bringing the laws to bear
upon a particular class of men marked teem out sometimes
for popular sympathy, and very often enabled them to
propagate their mischievous and abominable, but happily
impracticable, doctrines with greater effect. With regard
to that particular feature of Socialism—the purchase of
land and the formation of colonies, which appeared so for-
midable to the Right Rev. Prelate, he (the Marquis ef
Lansdowne) did not apprehend so much danger from it.
He knew that there was a colony on the borders of the county
with which lie was connecterl, and within the limits of
that of which the Noble Duke was Lord Lieutenant.
He had made inquiry respecting that colony, end he
found that one of the conditions was, that every person
must bring 201 into it.--(A laugh.) He thought their
Lordships would admit that this condition was sufficient to
prevent the too rapid increase of such a colony. When
the people found out that they were deluded by artful
men, and that they had been cheated of their money, that
experience would do more to put an end to those colo-
nies than any act of the Attorney. General. Those people
would soon find that those mischievous and abomineblc
doctrines were fortunately wholly impracticable, and those
unsuccessful experiments which, with whatever ether evil
they might be attended, would serve at least to convince
mankind of the utter impossibility of moulding
human nature upon those immoral systems. He
therefore did not view wi.h that apprehension which
others did, those particular instances of what were called
" Man Colonies." On those grounds, and those grounds
alone, he acquiesced in the motion for the address.
The Bishop of LONDON would trespass on the atten-
tion of their Lordships for only a few minutes. He con-
sidered that a very beneficial effect would result from their
Lordships' debates on this subject, and by their publicity,
because he was persuaded that there was as yet so much
of good in the heart of the country, that the well-
educated classes, and those who possessed a just influence
on the lower orders would combine together in opposing
those pernicious doctrihes. But he was afraid they en-
joyed the worst kind of publicity, they were well-known
and canvassed by the great bulk of the population,
not merely by those who were commonly called the public,
but by those on whose good principles the safety of the
public depended.—( Hear, hear.) There was a weekly
publication, which he believed enjoyed an extensive circu-
lation, and he regretted to say, if common report spoke
true, that the joint proprietor, if not the active editor of
that mischievous publication, was a Magistrate of influence
in this metropolis—a paper which did not content itself
with setting forth the abstract principles of Socialism, and
a paper which, he would venture to say, could not have
escaped the notice of her Majesty's Attorney-General,
and which, without hesitation, he asserted, ought to have
been over and over again the subject of prosecution by
that legal functionary. That was only one of the peri-
odical press that was diffusing their pernicious principles
and practices, end that kind of publicity so far from being
likely to derive any increase, would, ho was per-
suaded before long receive a salutary check and
diminution. He would take the liberty of remind-
ing the Noble Viscount at the head of the Govern-
ment that if such an address was presented to her Majesty,
the effect likely to be produced on the Government would
not depend SO much on the character of the address as
upon the answer that might be given to it —( Cheers.)
He had not intended to have troubled their Lordships,
but interested as he was in the spiritual welfare of the
people of the great metropolis, which was the citadel and
stronghold of all that was evil as well as much that was
good, he considered that he should. have been wanting in
his duty if he had not expressed his assent to all that had
been stated with so much Christian feeling and eloquence
ley his Right Reverend Friend.—( Hear, hear.) He be-
lieved the discussion and the unanimous feeling expressed
in that House on the subject would have a most beneficial