The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-24 00:00:00

tei.• eupen it even though liVoleswol th's motion—
i schter)— did come on on Monday. He objected to the
ex, oeen of the Roman Catholics from the grant. and he con-
that any scheme having for its object the education
• .he people, while at the same time it excluded
ortion of the people from the benefits of it would never
_ssee p
• sreeettever should give, satisfaction to the country.—
, . hear.) He thought that unless they passed some reso-
ietion like that which was proposed by the Member for the
lower Hamlets they would not give a fair encouragement to
Ilse clergymen of those parishes to which be had before alluded.
He, as a landowner, was not prepared to set up schools where
he Dissenters would be excluded. He would not vote for any
• stern which comprehended a compulsory power ;
Ise did not think that such a system could with
Avery be applied to this country They were often
in the habit of hearing the Prussian system lauded, but what
was the fact, notwithstanding all this education in Prussia
The State was everything and the people were nothing. It
was true they had lately obtained some kind of a Liberal con-
stitution, but it could only be regarded as a step in the right
d rection—.(Hear, hear)--and nothing more. The Hon.
Baronet then read an extract from a letter written
Ly the Secretary for the Massachussets Board of Education.
which stated that he never saw a more vicious set of boys, and
evil passions more strongly developed in the countenances of
the people ; and he, the Hon. Baronet was yet to learn that the
people of Prussia, after three hundred years of a compulsory
system by her Government, were a better disposed people than
the English. tiniest the Government gave some assurance
that they would carry some such proposition as that of the
:Wernher for the Tower Hamlets, great dissatisfaction would
prevail. He voted against the Government because he
thought the measure would widen Sae present religious differ-
ences which existed in the country.
Mr. HENLEY said that he thought the Hon. Baronet was
very unfortunate, because many gentlemen who expressed
themselves in favour of his principles, yet were determined to
vote against him, indeed two Right Hon. Baronets on this
side of the House ( Sir R. Peel and Sir James Graham ),
while professing themselves to be strongly in favour of the
measure, threw in a few observations which were as little
likely to facilitate its passing through the House as the
explosion of a barrel of gunpowder.—(Loud laughter.)
He warned the Noble Lord at the head of the Government,
and those who were with him, and who were acting under the
paetence of these Minutes of Council, that if they attempted
to give the Church of England, or any body in this country,
any sort of aid in consequence of what was said in that House
—if they attempted to force on the Church of England the
education of the people in a way which it conscientiously be-
lieved was not the right way—that they would meet with an
oppositirn which they had not calculated upon.—(Hear, hear.)
Be should not have noticed this point so strongly had it not
been for the speech of the Noble Lord at the head of the Go-
vernment. The Noble Lord did in that speech use very strong
expressions, and he (Mr. Henley) could tell him, that they had
been much noticed in the country. It had been well said by a
high authority the other night, that the Church had of late
years, by the course it had adopted, taken a considerable hold
of the people. He would ask if that fact arose from the Church
having sacrificed its destinctive principles, or by any system of
slip slop religion ? They knew that it was by their increased
zeal for the people's welfare. The Church stood more upon it,
destinctive principles than it ever did, and honestly and stedfastly
refused to give up what he bslieved to be its right, and he
hoped that she would contieue to stand fast upon her rights.
If, however, the Church was not to instruct the youth under
her charge in the religion see believed to be the true one, she
would not instruct them at all. Such had been the course
taken by her during the last ten years, and owing to the zeal
and good conduct of her members she had obtained that love of
the people which the Right Hon. Bart. had alluded to. Hold-
ing that opinion as he did, it was impossible for him not to
vote against the amendment of the Right Hon. Baronet op-
posite.
Sir GEORGE GREY said that he would call the attention
of the House to the fact, that from the time his Right Hon.
Friend made his motion, until the time when the Hon. Mem-
ber who had just spoken arose, not one word had been said
with reference to the particular motion. The debate had been
entirely upon the general question—it was in fact a continua-
tion of the debate of the three preceding nights. He for one
as unwilling to interrupt the present discussion upon the ge-
neral question, and if gentlemen desired to express their opi-
nions, they had a right to take the present opportunity of
stating their sentiments The Hon. Member who had just
sat down had confined Wessell* to the particular motion, and he
was frse to say had called the attention of the House to it. He
tliffered from the Hon. Member in some points, and especially
in his supposition that the Government was about to adopt the
ystem proposed. He hoped that although it was not the hi-
::neon of Government to attempt to force or impose, as a ne-
:es,ary condition, upon all schools receiving the Government
aid, thas they should extend their education and instruction to
the children of these parents who objected to the religious in-
struction of the Church of England—that the practice
was becoming prevalent in many cases, of not enforcing the
instruction in the catechism and liturgy upon the children of
those parents who objected to their receiving such instructions.
He rejoiced to say that that liberal feeling and good sense was
becoming dully more prevalent. Some short time since, an
Gentleman said in that House, owing to a similar sen-
timent expressed by his Noble Friend at the head of the Go-
vernment, that it was the intention of the Government—their
avowed intention to enforce such instruction as a
necessary condition on receiving those Government grants,
and he (Sir George Grey) had endeavoured to explain
a few nights since, that such an act would be totally inconsistent
with the course which the Government had in view. They
did not propose to establish a system, to impose any conditions
as to the kind of instruction to be given in those schools re-
ceiving Parliamentary aid, they only proposed to assist existing
institutions to increase their usefulness and efficiency relating
to secular instruction, subject only to the condition of inspec-
tion. He confessed that if the Government adopted the prin-
ciple of his Hon. Friend, it would be totally
inconsistent with
the desire they had to increase the voluntary efforts of large
bodies. The National Societe and the British School Society
would have to remodel their arrangements. Such a proceeding
would put a stop to many voluntary efforts, which the Govern-
went did not want to supersede. He thought, therefore, that
the apprehensions expressed by the Hon. Member who had last
spoken, as to the conduct of the Government, were not well
Jimmied. The Government wished, and it was quite consistent
to wish it. that perhaps by a voluntary arrangement these chil-
dren of different sec's might be brought together—that children
of
every denomination might be found in the same school
without in the least interfering with each others religious
opinions„Such a wish was different from enforcing this
s bool ri•gulation in the arbitrary manner which the Hon.
"";ember had mentioned. His should, therefore, not feel at
liberty'to cut pert the motion of the Right Hon. Baronet.
31r. ROEBUCK said that there was one thing very grati-
fying to all the friends of a liberal education in this
country, to see the very many attempts which were made to
forward this educational measure continued in the universal
feeling expressed by every person whose opinion was worth
having on this matter, as to the absolute necessity of some
education for the people, and also the discussion as to what
sort of education was most fit for her Majesty's subjects. He
wished even at that late hour if the House would permit him
to say a few words as to the principle which governed that
vote. It remained now to be admitted as a general principle
that it was the duty of the Government to provide, or attempt to
educate the people. The other question they had to consider
in spite of the intelligence reit of doors, was the nature of the
education to be so bestowed. It had been admitted that the
Government was justified in attempting to educate the people,
and therefore he should net attempt to prove it. He would
assume also that it was the business of the Government to edu-
cate the largest number of the population that it was possible.
The Noble Lord the Men.hsr for London and the Right Hon.
Member for Tamworth stated together that it would be of no
use to give the people half an education. If the Government
objected to give half an education to the people, there
was certainly a difference between doing that and
giving an education to half of the people. He
would give the children in these schools knowledge on
which all parties were agreed. Whether it were geography,
mathemalcs, or any other branch of knowledge, it mattered
nothing, they all agreed as to the necessity of teaching it,
:whether they were Roman Catholics, Baptists, or Presby-
tsrians. He now came to the fashioning of the habits of the
:sing generation. This consisted in the moral influence of the
Ilarnily, the opinion of society, the law, and the influence of a
future state of reward for virtuous conduct. All these went to
form the character of the individual. Now, what he would
wise to know was, whether any difference existed among
ail these parties as to the teaching of them.
No, they all agreed in the obligations of the
moral law, and in inculcating a belief in a future state of re-
wards and punishments as beneficial to the habits and conduct
of the children who were to be taught. Whether they dis-
puted about consubvantiation or transubstantiation, the Douay
vers:on or the authorised version of the Scriptures, they all
agreed as to the teaching of the moral principles to which he
had referred. It was only when they introduced their fantastic
dogmata, supported by prejudice, passion, and ignorance, but
not by virtue, that they differed and disputed. It was by these
dogmata, these peculiar theological opinions, that disturbances
':were created, and a noise made about the necessity of a reli-
gious system of education. Let them avoid such causes of dis-
pute as these, and in their education admit only of such religi-
is teaching as was permanent and common to all, and which
d:d nat raise the phar.tom of religious hatred and enmity
throughout the kingdom. What he would ask on the present
occasion was, did the Government not introduce into their
scheme that religion about which there was no difference,
and that religion about which so much difference
prevailed? Take the Roman Catholics. Among them there
were many men who were good fathers, brothers, citizens, and
Christians, in spite of their religious prejudices. The same
might be said of all the other religious sects, in spite of all
their differences. What, then, did the Noble Lord mean by
this teaching of religion which he proposed? He (Mr. Roe-
buck) did not object to their teaching the moral duties of life,
and to a state of reward for virtue hereafter ; but he objected
to their laying down any standard by which other men were
to be judged on religious matters. The Hon. Member (Mr.
Plumptre) had endeavoured to lay down such a standard,
and bad said as much as that all who would not
eel-ea with him would be doomed. (Hear, hear.)
If the Hun. Member had substituted a for o perhaps he
would have much better expressed his real meaning.—(Loud
laughter.) He objected to (his setting up of authority. The
-•
Weals- ans had come in, and they had objected to the Roman
Catholics participating in any of the grant in a document they
had recently issued ; and they, fainting with a glorification
that they hoped ere long to have full religious toleration. Such
toleration with them, however, meant, that it be only tolera-
tiers of their own sect. They wished to exalt themselves as
the standard of all virtue. He, however, had no faith In
such toleration.—Hear, hear.) It would appear that the
-Wesleyan* had entertained some doubt as to the
minutes of council, because it appeared to favour the suppo-
sition that the Roman Catholics would be allowed to partici-
pate in the grant •
applications to the' Government, but now it would appear, after sending
rhee,.
Romantei their mcina
had been partially satisfied.nvaTe,
eaeluded• There satisfaction wassaintroportiodriths,toliittchawewoeeuxricedlutsoseieobmn: of the other party. He must
conduct of the Govern-
ment, in this matter, had ezhillthedmeanything bat fair dealing,
and had it not been for the
and manly expres-
sion of feeling, the hallueinatieaont
tortuous policy, would have eentritred by this
who had put faith the minutes in those
In a country like theirs, full sf religious opinions aottid council.
de2mae
it was impossible to create on s system which could be taught-e-'
under one roof, and, :1-lerefsre, they would require either to a muletudieous nun Oen of schools, or, throwing awl;
1,140.113 degtnas, permit the teachers t f each sect to educate
the children elio were tee of spring of parents holding smell. •
cilar opinions. He had great confidence, however, in the ex-
patelieg qu lithe of a Minister's conscience.—(Laughter.) It
W.2.S of at. India-rubber texture, and, ere many }ears expired
--before ;he year i 313, reliably—they would see the Catholics
elasped to the bosom ni the Pteademand included in the vote of
tt.e Government. Tee Noble Lord, in reality, at present said,
•• I will teach every sect in its own school-room,', but this he could
aaurc the Noble Lord was exceedingly offensive to the Wes-
-1 enns. They would cot take the money of the Government
to mop egate what the .l'ob'e Lord conceived to be error, but
e., e y took it in order to rescue the people from the deep degre-
elation in which they were plunged. They took it as a matter
of policy; they took it for the purpose of repressing vice and
New 2 r, and it was only by steps like these that the
EW • 0 11 e elevated ;it was only by a course like this that
en'.
- colt(,, part, dispel the darkness which had gathered
t mad Aietht d only when the Government increased in
kitowledie. ,vitfit the period arrive when all the people of the
feesgefr;-.4siVen—tintry.levell educated and enlightened. Thus they would, I
ssaneeed. a'es' yin knowledge, in wisdom, and in Christian
/7-
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