The Sun.
London, England, 1847-05-29 00:00:00

SCOTCH BILLS.

Mr. HOME DRUMMOND wished to know when the
Scotch Bil were to he brought forward? _ _

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he would state on
Monday night what course should be adopted with re-
gard to them.

INDIRECT TAXATION.

Mr. EWART presented petitions from a number of
merchants, spirit dealers, and bakers, resident in Edin-
burgh and Leith, complaining of the oppressive system
of indirect taxation.

Ordered to lie upon the table.
On the motion for reading the order of the day,
Mr. EWART rose to move that it is expedient that a
more direct system of taxation on property should (as
far as possible) be substituted for the indirect system (by
Customs and Excise duties) now in use. That such a
change would, by removing restrictions caused by the
Excise, encourage trade, and the free application of
science to trade. Tie, by removing the restric-
tions caused by Customs duties, it would extend
commerce, and be the most natural means of
prolonging the peace, by promoting the interconrse of
the world. That it would be highly beneficial to the
poor (who now pay the great mass of indirect taxation),
by giving them more abundant means of subsistence and
of employment, and would tend generally and finally to
the good of all classes of the community. He wished
to call the attention of the House to the present system
of indirect taxation, and it was principally in the
name of the poor that he did so, for it
was an admitted fact that the greater portion-of the tax
on all the articles of consumption was paid by the poor.
A great pressure was inflicted upon the poorer classes
by the system of indirect taxation, which, according to a
calculation made, amounted to 20 per cent., or one-fifth
of the whole revenue. Many schemes had been pro-
pounded; among others it had been suggested that an
ad valorem duty, or one that should be regu-
lated by the quality of the article, would
be the most fair and just in its operation, and so far had
this opinion been impressed on the minds of practical
men, that Sir R. Walpole, and other names not less cele-
brated, were among those who supported it. But
experience had shown them that an ad valorem
system of taxation was impracticable. The adoption
of this plan would prove of inestimable service to the
poor, while it would do no injury to the Exchequer
For instance, when the duty was taken off salt, it was
anticipated that the returns from that source would
fall off, but the anticipations were not realised.
But this system of a discriminating duty, however just
in theory, had not at all succeeded in practice. lie was,
therefore, of opinion, that since the objects sought could
not be obtained by an ad valorem or discriminating duty,
they should at once try the system which he had taken the •
liberty of suggesting, namely, to reduce the duty on tea, on
sugar, on butter, and such other articles of consumption,
and place the same in their just proportions on the pro-
perty of the. country. Under the present system the
trade with :Mina had decreased, and in other articles of
general comfort and common use they were sta-
tionary. By adopting the mede suggested by him
they would greatly increase their commerce. With
respect to butter and cheese, it v as of great im•
portance that still further reductions should be made in
the duties now levied upon those articles. Large quan-
tities of those articles were consumed by the working
claves of this country. Since the alteration of the duties
on :those articles by the Right Honourable Baronet
the Member for Tamworth the consumption bad
:nereased in value to a very large extent. The value
the butter imported into this country in the year
1845 was 259,0001., but in the present year it amounted
to 312,3261.; the value of the cheese imported in 1845
was 372,7771., while in 1847 their declared value was
506,7451., arid there was no doubt but that a still greater
increase would take place upon a further reduction of the
duties. It was proved also before a Committee of that House,
that if they were to lower the duties on tobacco, a very ,
considerable trade would be created in that article, and
that it would lead to a much more extensive manu-
facture of snuff. By the abolition of the duties on the
importation of corn which had taken place, America, he
believed would be induced to increases her purchases of
their manufactures. There was another article
also, which would be greatly affected by reduction, the
article of wine, the consumption of which he believed
would be increased to an incredible extent if the duties
were reduced. The Hon. Member then referred to the
report of the Committee, in 1833, on the Excise
laws, which had made many valuable suggestions,
which he wished had been carried out.—(Hear)
He alluded. of course, to such petty interference of
observing the Excise claim, for if the system of
observing stock was to • be continued they would
require ten, times the number of officers as now
existed for taking those observances properly.
and he would ask whether any of the trades affected
would tolerate such a supervision as it would then be
necessary to institute ? The • Commissioners ap-
pointed in 1835, with Sir Henry Parnell at their
head, had unanimously recommeaded the reduction
of the duty from one penny to one farthing per pound ;
and they had stated that France, Germany, and Spain
were all in advance of this country in the manufacture of
soap. Ireland, it was well known, was not rated with
any duty on soap. He would not trouble the House
with any further observations on this head, because many
Honourable Members were intimately acquainted with
the subject. But there was another :subject of
very considerable importance, on which he must say
a few words. That was the duty on paper. Now,
this duty was first imposed in the 10th of Queen
Anne, in the year 1711, and it was said to be imposed
to provide supplies for the war, and to obtain a good
and lasting peace. A long time had elapsed since that
peace was established, but the duty "had never
been removed. To show the extent of this
grievant-Et, he might state that the paper on
which newspapers are printed is formed of the
sweepings of the cotton factories ; and one of the evils
which the petitioners complained of was, that the mate-
rial of which their paper was formed, nod which- k
was taxed in its manufactured state, had pre-
viously been taxed when is its raw condition.
He was particularly anxious to have the duty taken off '
paper, because he considered that it was a tax
upon the literature of the country. They must all re-
member the repeal of the almanac tax. Before that tax
was taken off almanacs could only be procured by the
rich. There was every prospect of the English language
becoming eventually the only language used in commerce.
This was evident from the rapidity with which Eng-
land sad Aunt ica were extending their foreign relations,
and this was an additional reason why the literature of
this country should be left free and untaxed. It was also
desirable that an equalization of the duties levied in this
country and Ireland on spirits should take place. Salt
also was an article, the consumption of which had greatly
increased since a reduction had taken place in the
amount of duty upon it, and upon which it was desir-
able, for the cause of chemistry, and the other sciences,
that the Excise duties should be entirely removed. The
effect of the whole of the Excise duties was seriously to
impede the progress of the arts, as well as to inflict an
injury upon the public at large. The Excise laws ope-
rated also upon science, and checked its advance, as ap-
plied to the arts. There was one kind of duties, how
ever, which were so unequal in their pressure that he
would briefly allude to them—he meant the stamp
duties. It was mentioned last year before
a Committee who sat upon these duties,
that upon a 501 sale of land the duty was 12i per cent.,
on 1001. 51, per cent., and so on to 5001., when it was 1
per cent. He called on them in the name of morality to
alter their present system. He also maintained that it
they had a more direct system of taxation, they would
collect their taxes at a much less cost, and thereby
increase the revenue very considerably'. One reason,
therefore, why he preferred direct to indirect tax was
because it elevated the morals of the people, and another
was because it was calculated to preserve the peace of
the world.
Mr. HUME seconded the motion.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
Messengers from the Lords brought up several Bills,
which were ordered to lie on the table.
The debate on Direct Taxation was then resumed.
The CHANCELLOR of tho EXCHEQUER thought
no excuse had need to be made by the Hon. Gentleman
forward the present motion. It was one of
for bringing
great importance, yet he hoped under existing circum•
stances the .House would bear with him, if he did not
attempt to follow him through the various items to
which be had referred, as in another Parliament it
might• be found necessary to increase the amount of'
dive, taxation, and therefore he regretted the question
was brought forward at the present time. With this
general declaration he considered it would be the best
course for him not to go into the details of the question
now, but leave it to a future and more fitting occasion.
Mr. B 5 YORKE hoped the lion. Member (Mr.

Ewart) would, after the declaration of the Right Hon.
Gentlrman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) postpeee
the subject. In another session of Perliament tin re
would have to be a general revision of taxation.
Mr. HUME said the business of the night was the
voting away of the public money, and therefore ha
thought the question was one which was fairly entitled to
consideration. He for one thought the whole exel,e
system should be revised, and as there was a league es-
tablished to effect this object, he wished it every auee Ss.
They would soon have to elect a new Parliament, and it
would depend on the people what Members should be
returned, and what should be done with the excise-laws.
The duties on soap, paper, and bricks, were most oppress
sive, and if the people were true to themselves, this
would be accomplished. There were many ways in whil
the expenditure of the country might be redueed, in
order to effect improvements in the taxes ; for instal .e,
a million might be saved by withdrawing the cruir rs
from the coast of Africa, where they were doing no got.el,
but evil.
Mr. WILLIAMS complained of such motions heire;
brought forward, unless they were persevered in. There
was one Omission in the statement of the Hon. Mereb.,r
for Dumfries. It was the reduction of the expenditure.
as well as the carrying out of direct taxation. l:e
would eJII their attention to the fact that the estimat-'s
in 1835 were seven millions less than they were in r:,e
present year. Year for year the increase of the es -
mates has been going on.. He called upon the Chance- !-
lee of the Exchequer to explain how this took pita—.
The country ought nut to be satisfied with this state et
things, or with the tax roll of fifty-five millions of money.
It would, in his opit.ion, be better that the sense of t! e
House should be tsken in a direct motion on this stdr-
ject.

- Col. SIBTHORP thought the best course would be
for the Right lion. Gentleman the Chancell.,r Of ti.e
Exchequer to give up his office to the Hon. Member f,r
Coventry. It would be then seen what he could do in
his new position.
Mr. E WART said as the subject would have to come
fully before the House on a future occasion, and after
the expression of opinion which had been elicited,
would for the present withdraw the motion. He telt
great unwillingness to vote this 77,0001, believing that
a greater saving in the department could be effected.
Mr. SHELL defended the officers of the min!. They
were not blameable for the large amount of expenditute.
There certainly were some things objectionable in Oa
management of the mint, but the officers engaged in the
mint were not answerable for them

Mr. HUME said he did not blame the officers, but tl- e
system. This country was paying more for this depart-
mint than any other country in the world.
Mr. SHELL was rejoiced to hear that Hon. Gentle-
man did not question the morality of the officers engaged
in the mint.

Mr. WILLIAMS complained that the department
was in the hands of a private company, whereas it ought
to be in the hands of the Government. lie hoped the
Right Hon. Gentleman would turn his attention to this
subject.

Sir GEORGE CLERK said there was a good deal
of uncertainty in the work supplied to the contractors
of the Mint. These contractors had a large capital in•
vested in the business, and it was not to be won-
dered at that when they were called upon sucl•lenly to
throw out a certain amount of work it involved the
country in a large expense.
Mr. HUME was not aware that the contractors had a
large capital lying dormant,
Mr. SHELL said it was true the Government
found the machinery for the Mint, but the miners bad to
keep that machinery in rerair. He entertained an ear
nest hope that ere long some useful modification woulJ
take place in the system.
Mr. THORNEIY wished to know when the country
might expect the issue of 2s. pieces?
Mr. SHELL said he had consulted his Right Hon.
Friend the Chancellor of the Exch, quer upon the sub•
ject, who was more officially responsible for the issue
than he was, and his Right Hon. Friend had promised to
give his attention to the subject. He had, therefore,
given instructions to the engraver of the Mint to hod
h mielf in readiness to prepare the et,.
After some further conversation, the vote was agreed
to.

On the question that 17,000/. be voted to her Majesty.
to defray the expenses of the Railway Commtuiuners'
services,

Colonel SIBTHORP said he could see no necessity
why the country should be put to such an expense. It
ought to be paid by the railway companies.
Mr. HUDSON said he did not approve of the Board.
All the railway companies considered it quite uncall.•d
for, and he could not agree to the suggestion of the
Hon. and Gallant Gentleman opposite. In selecting
the officers of the Railway Board, he regretted that Go
vernment had not appointed gentlemen who were con
versant with the railway system. 8,000/. a year would
be quite sufficient for the expenditure of the Com
-mission.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that the annual expenditure of the board was only
12,0001., and he was quite sure that the-ability. and
integrity with which the Flom Gentleifian conducted hi-
own. affairs put a much larger suminto this pocket than
that now proposed as, a salary -lot the officers of the
board. • - • •

Mr. HUDSON—Oh, but that is a mere speculation
—(Laughter.)

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that the appointment of the board was most populsr,
and the object of the Government was not to have in:).
one upon it who was connected with ra howls, in orde r
to secure perfect fairnest, and to leave no moth fiet.
jealousy or suspicion of favouritism.
Col. SIBTBORP said that one of the duties of ti.e
board should be to ascertain how far compensation has
been given, can be, and must he given to the famiti.•s of
those eho have been injured by accidents upon ruilroad
hich he was sorry to observe were, daily occurring-.
The Government were boded to take care of the lives ( t'
the pe,•p!e, and they should, thererore, pay attention iv
the subject.
Mr. 3 ri:UTT said, that by an Act passed at the end
of the last session for the purpose of giving compensit-
don to the surviving relatives. He had also to assure
the Han. Member that there was no portion of their du y
to which they paid so much attention .as to the cause:
of accidents. And when they heard of the melancholy
accident to which reference had been made, they sent
down a very able engineer with whom they had assts
ciated, Mr. Walker, a very eminent gentleman ; and
they had communicated with the other departments of the
Government, in order that some steps might be taken.
The Board of Ordnance had also sent down engineers
—(Hear, hear)—to examine into the circumstance of
the case. _ _

Mr. HUME considered that it was most important to
continue the commis,ion, and that it should be sup •
ported in an efficient manner.
Mr. WILLIAMS di,l hope that her Maj. sty's Go-
vernment would place great power and control in the
hands of the commission, even so far as to extend to
the regulation of the goods on the different railways.
After a few words from the CHA.NCELLOA of the Ex-
CHEQUER and Mr. HUDSON,
Mr. HUME wished t., know whether the Government
had any return by which they were able to ascertain the
number of third class carriages in which the passenger,
were obliged to stand.

Mr. STRUTT said, that under the terms of the Act
passed last year, each railway company was obliged to
run one train, at least, during the day, at a speed of not
less than twelve miles an hour, and at the charge of a
penny the mile, closed and with seats ; but whether any
company thought fit to run any other carriages at a 1.-ss
cost, or with less convenience, was an affair of which the
Act took no cognisance.
The vote was then agreed to.
PUBLIC RECORDS.

The sum of 12,812/ was then proposed for the ex-
penses of the offices of public records, compensation to
officers, &c.
Mr. PROTFIEROE hoped that some safe and perms-
nent,place would shortly be prepared for the receptpin
of the public records, in order to reserve th. m from t
very'nnsafe position in which many of them were now
placed.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that the subject was under the con,ideration of the
Government. There was, however, consirerable diffi-
culty in obtaining a suitable site for the er(ction of such
a building, which he hoped would soon be suet.
Dr. BO WRING thought that attention ought to be
bestowed by the Government in the collection of the
early records of the histories of this country, which were
believed to exist in grfat numbers, and of great value,
especially some of the writings of the monkish historians.
Great progress had been made in collections of this kind
by the different countries on the continent.
Mr. PRO THEROE thought it a matter of import-
ance to consider in what manner it would be best to give
the information which would be so collected to the
public.
After a few words from Mr. Protheroe and Dr.
Bowring and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the vote
was agreed to.
INSPECTORS OF FACTORIES AND MINES.

A vote of 13,0341., to defray the expenses of the sala-
ries of the inspectors of factories and mines was Olin
agreed to.
HEREDITARY CROWN REVENUES.
The sum of 1,7551. was then proposed to defray the
expenses of certain officers in Scotland. formerly de-
frayed out of the hereditary crown revenues of that
country.
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the vote. He had
divided the House upon several occasions on the vote ;
he would not, however, do so on the present occasion,
but he hoped that the vote would not be again brought
forward.
LORD LIEUTENANT'S HOUSEHOLD.

The sum
theo salaries6,464l.f of the officers, wastliencepro,
and posedotthoerdtefraxpeynstehce
charges •
of the household of the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland.
Dr. BOWRING objected to the vote; one of the
items of which it was made up, was 1,0001. to be laid out
in Queen's Plates to be run for at horse races. He
thought that in the present distressing state of that
country, it was most unreasonable to ask the House to
agree to vote away such a sum for such a purpose.
Mr. LABOUC HERE defended the vote on the ground
that various sums were voted by the House for England
and Scotland for this purpose, and he thought it would
be most invidious to refuse to Ireland so small a vote as
that now proposed.
Mr. WILLIAMS thought that it would be just as
reasonable to propose a vote for the encouragement of
cock-fighting and badger-baiting as for the pry motiov f
the gambling and nefarious system of horse-racing.e
should move as an amendment that the vote be reducedirn
to the sum of 4960 L Is. 2d., thereby excluding the
1 for Queen's Plates.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw,
and the
House divided, when there appeared,
The gallery was cleared for a division,
place; and the vote was agreed to.
osel
On the vote of 5,135 E being prop but none took
to defray the

expenses of the office oathe Puyn-,ll.ter thCCtrin Ser.
vice in Irelavd,
Mr. Iit:TRH ohjected\t. rote,-and slid that the
office of the Lord-Li, rater akyitf. IrelTtkAtekit, be done
away with altogether. Irer'fird- ghouTibe placiii in tho
same feoting in every respect as England, and if this

./
equality was secored,,there would be little occasion for
such offices as that for which the present vote was pro-
posed. If he had the good fortune to he returned to the
next Parliament, he would not allow the first sessiom to
pass over without submitting a motion to the House to
abolish the Lord:llltut.-nant's office, and be believed
there would not be- f; and a single Member who would
not join him ithgetting rid of an institution whose only
object appearerl.to he the creating and fostering a great
system of 6'101.1. This mot:e of dealing- with • Ireland
was not the proper one, and had the • ffect of making
that country a colony instead of an integral part of the
United King,fom.. Re would enter his protest against
this and similar votes, as he bells ved those offices en-
tailed a useless and unmeessary expense upon the
country.
Mr. LA.ROUCHERE said that whatever opinion
might be enter:A:tied with vssoret the utility of these
offices, it w:is not upon an i'era like that the quußtion
could be &snis.t.:l. 11. s Ilc•r. s,i.l the gen ral
advantage should bc, lothea to lit the applicstion of his
experiiture, and he agrt.el wit2i hint in that opinion,
but he would not then enter into a discussion of the
question which the Hon. Gentleman brorght before
them.
The vo'e was then net-P.( d to.
On. the voti, of 97.0281. to defray the C penses of the
Bonrd of Public Works in Ireland.-
Sir R. FERGUSON asked the Chancellor of the Ex-
quer what arranuentent was made with rnedsphece t
should
the2ld
salary of the Ciairrean of the Board ; a
also like to know what part of that office was to be tem-
porary, and what permanent ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, Who

was very imperfectly heard, %as understood to say,
what part of the office would be permanent, and what
temporary ?

Mr. HENLEY said the vote was very much increased
since last year. It was very large, and as it was an ad-
ditional sum to what was expended in the weekly
superintendence-of the works going on in Ireland.
The vote was then azreed to.
On the vote of 39,0001. to defray tlle stcret'service
expenses,
Dr. BOWRING thought it very strange that the
same amount should be asked year after year for this
item, and he wished to know if there aas any balance
ever left from fit mer years.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
the vote every year was struck on un average by former
Sears.

- Mr. HUME objected to the vote altogether. He did
not think that bribing a set of fellows, such as those
who received thi,, money, was the proper plan for any
Government to adopt. A Government that could not
carry on its business without resorting to this expedient
was not fitted to carry on the affairs of the country.
The tendency of such expenditure was always to in-
crease more and more, and be protested against such an
outlay at all.
Mr. WILLIAMS considered it would te vcry desi-

rable to know whether any balances of this exp, nditure
remained at the end of the y-ar. He thotwhf the vote
:vas a most objecticnable one, and that it crested the
most erroneous impressions amino. the people, many of
whom supposed that it consider/die portion of it was de-
voied to electioneering experces.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
such s report was altogether without foundation. The
expenditure of this vote vas strictly locked after, and
he did not think that any portion of it was unnecessarily
incurred.

The vote was then azre-d to.
295,5131 was proposed to defray the expenses of the
stationery and printing, &c. of the various public de.
parttnents.

Mr. WILLIAMS considered that this was a most
enormous sum. and would like to see a deuailed account
of this expenditure.
Mr. PARKER said there were so many returns or-
dered by the House—so many inquiries made, and so
many documents deminded. that a very large expendi-
ture was necessarily incurred. ,
Mr. CARDWELL corroborated this statement, and
sail' if a dutail,d return of the cost at printing eseh do-
cument was male, the expenditure under this vote
would be greatly increased.

After a few words from Mr. HUME, who was desir-
ous that a full detail of the accounts should be Oven,
Dr. BOWRING said if the statements made by the
late Secretary of the Treasury (Mr. Cardwell) were
correct, it only show, d the comp icat,d and entangled
way ir. which the public accounts were kept, and the
oeceQsity which existed for an improved syst,-m of keep-
ing them.

Mr. CAADWELL said that these observations wore
ntirely untour-detl end uticulleo for. What he said
simply was a detailed 4ccount of the cost of printing
- ach return would_ cause a very considerable additional
expenditure.

Lord O. BENTESTB: thought that mary of the re-
turns ordered-were us. and he should like to have a
return of_ the cost of :he various ch,eUtnents which had
teen moved for by the. two Hon.. Gentlemen opposite
(Dr. Bowring and Mr. Hume.)—(Laughter.)
Mr. HUME had no. the t.lichtest objection to accede to
the Noble Lord's wish, and to challenge him to say that
he (Mr. Hume) never may. d for a r, turn that he did not
afterward.; use ef —(Hear, htar ) The N. hie
Lortl had no right t, say that the papers he moved for
%we useless and unnecessary. LA the 1 apers be looked
et, and it wouli be seen that in the crest majority of in-
,tanees his object was removsil of existing abuses.—
(Hear, h. ar.) As there appeared, however to be some
reluctance to givo a detailed account of the expenditure
of this item, he would, on Monday next, move that these
accounts be analysed, ants] that the result be laid before
the Hoase.

Sir %V. CLAY said there could be no doubt that many
of the returns moved for were quite anti( ceiisary, and
`only gave trouble t, the departinvnt without producing
any advaetage. .

Mr. WILLIAMS'siid it appeared that there had been
an incr,ase of 68,000/. in th. course of last year ; but
the 1-lon. Gentleman had only acc-untad fur 11,0001.
He was not aware that. more Parliamentary paper, were
published last year than in ita.predecessor. He hope-d,
therefore, that the Eln. Gentleman w“ula cake the
t,ubject into consideration, and that fir the future a
strxinct account would be famished of the different
pal:IA.B published, and of the quantity of p spar supplied
to the different public offices.

Dr. BOWRING said, frequently repetitions of the
.ame return were published, and suggested, in order to
obviate this, that be ore an unoppos.,d order was put
by the chair, it should heascertaine.l that no similar
document had been previously published. Returns
were invariably made according to the letter of the
order, acid where figures extended over a number of
pages, they were not added up at the bottom of each
page, and Hon. Members were often obliged to add up
the whole at the end of the twentieth or thirtieth page.
He bail never moved for a return, because he had been
asked to do so ; but because they had reference to mat-
ters b. for, the House.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER depre-
cated the turn whin the dismission had taken. He
considered, hoy.ev..r, that some censor, was deserved,
with respect to the a ay in which returns were made out.
, Wher Hon. Member-. h id asked him whether he had any
objection to a return, he had invariably suggested that
!hey should search their library in order to ascertain
whether they had or had not been furni.hed, and fre-
quently similtr re:urns had hi en found. It woul Ibe
utterly impossible to furnish every item of expense in
preparing a return--uch as paper, printing &C.—but at
the same time he could not avoid saying that the expense
of this department ought to be conducted as economi-
cally as po.sible, but without, at the same time, militating
what portion of the
sosgaiinr.stitpEeNvLalEueyofwitshheeddoetuinmkennots.
w
increase related to papers published by the order of the
Hou,e, and what to the papers published by the order of
the different public derrirtments ?

Thy• CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
h• had al►eady stated that the inc►ease in Parliamentary
prii:Trs was 15,0001.

Mr. ARK WRIGHT inquired what control the sta-
tionery-office had in the publication of papers?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
the stattonery-office could not print any papers without
authority to that effect trom the public office from which
they were supplied. Papers were printed under the
authority of the Government, and the Government was,
of course, responsible.
After some further conversation, the vote was agreed to.
9,6001. was next voted to defray the expense ofp
Of
pro-
secuting offenders, and 16.000/. to detray the expense
sheriffs. commissions of the peace, &c.
13.3681. was next imposed to detray the expense of
the Insolvent Debtors'
Court.
Mr. HUMEhad understood that the
Bankruptcy and Insolventhe Debtor,' Court were to be
amalgamated. lie wishedn to
know,
whether this was to
_
be the ea,e not F
Mr. PARKER replied, but the purport of it did not
reach the gallery.
The vote was agreed to.
61,060 L was next proposed to defray the law ex-
penses of Scotland.
In reply to Mr. HUME,
The LORD ADVOCATE said the accounts were
regularly audited.
On the vote of 71,2591. being proposed to defray the
expenses of criminal prosecutions and law charges in
Ireland,
Mr. HUME wished to know if the system of detain-
ing witnesses for many months before the trials on
which they were engaged will:allowed, or was still con-
tinned ?

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for Ireland said, ex-
cepting in very rare instances, this system was done
away with.

The vote was agreed to.
On the vote of 388,0001. for defraying certain charges
formerly borne by the county rates. being proposed,
Mr. HENLEY said that as this vote could not
cover the expense at present incurred by the country for
the maintenance of the penons detained in custody, he
wished to know how the balince was to be made up?
Sir GEORGE GREY said that there were two classes
of prisoners—those to be detained in custody in the
gai,ls of this country, and those sentenced to banishment
beyond seas. The present vote was intended to cover
the expense of the former class, the latter would be pro-
vided for by a future vote of the House.
Dr. BOWRINU wished that the Right Hon. Baronet
the Secretary of State would give the House some
assurance that the gaud c.,n ,uct on the part of s pri-
soner, would alleviate the condition and length of his
puniAment,
Sir G. GREY said that such an assurance was not
required, as the principle was already acted on.
The vote was agreed to.
On the vote of 14,3491. being proposed to defray *be
eapenses of the Parkhurst Prison, Isle of Wight,

Mr thought that the prix-nt syteem was an
eerie. it, it ereeti (ewe 0' l't fl. veal
the . • tle g t .!:, ! ref rePle
n ; • 4 I 0 • ~u;]. y r
te•reg i s w.•• .. I. neg.. ter ',Li, 0, II
I je es 111, ii. pc. 4, ry aas
put to v •st 'lt a e, it I
.a .1 rived.
Sri ei fltleY seed Ow the • xperiteeet had cern-
-- eplete ly succeed. d.
Me:WILLIAMS said that the cent at present incurred
under this system eas 201. per 1)03, which would be tar
less if they were, by coesent of their parents, sent out ut
the c..utitry.
The vote was, after akw words from Lord GEORGE
BEN t'INCK, agree I
01 the vote of 18.3071. heirg propesed to defray the
expenses of the Penrenville Miele; Prison,
Mr. wiLrAA ms or j tied to the expense incurred at
this prison fir tire meinti of etch prisoner. Die
aver tge cost mainterience in each case was 361. 15,
which was a larger amount then two independent. and
bonest labourers had in wages to support themselves
and their families.
Sir GEORGE GREY said that the expenses were
daily decreasing in the establishment, which was other-
wise of the big...est importance, as furnishing a model for
the prisms throughout :he country.
Mr. WILLIAMS said that he found fault with the
exrenditure in this matter of I,st year. Things were
d'fferently managed in New York. There were two
prisons there where the product of the labeur of the
pr:soners confined there last year was 10,000 dollars more
than the cost.
Mr. HENLEY said the ces• of maintaining prisoners
here was 14, a-week, it being necessary, ander the
silent system. to %leaf out a nip re livable diet. Pe must
ear that he did not think there was any extravagance
committed in the coat of maintaining the prisoners under
the system her • adopted.
Mr. HU VIE said that it did appear to him that Go-
vernment ought to take a comprehensive view of this
subject, for he thought they were not at the present
time pursuing a very wise course. This was a model
prison, and was a great expense.
Mr. HENLEY said that he was of opinion that this
exp riment was not very convincing, inasmuch as only
picked prisoners were confined in this prison, Some
doubt also existed as to the effieacy of seilarate.confine-
m "it. and a great number of cases of insanity er of delu-

sion.

'`t'• G. GREY denied that there was any excess of
the: e cas, s
The estimate was then agreed to.
The estimate for 8.8121. for the prison at Perth wa:
als to.

fhevote of; 10,0001. to defray the expense of a prim:),
for general convietm in Ireland.

The vote of 4,402/. to derrav the charges of maintain-
ing criminal lunatics ttt Ireland.
T.ie vote of 6,29:31. to defray the expense of erecting a
prison for criminal lunatics in Dublin.
The votes of 11,100/. to pay the salaries of inspectors
of p.is,,ns in Seotlard and of lunatic establishm.nts
Ireland were alzreed to.
On the vote of 39,500/ to defray the charge of thy•
Al-tr-politan Police, in Dublin,
:vin, HEINLE said he had often intended to ask who.,
were the expenses of the pollee courts, and how many
tri'.eistrimes were in each i.fficr; he now, therefore, put
th. question?
Me. LABOUCLIERE said the salary of each magi—
trat, was 6001. a year, and there were three attached to
each court.

T•te vote was agreed to.
Tha vote of 119.780/. to defray the expen,es of the
convict establishments at Bermuda and Gibraltar.
The vote of 200.00/. to defra) the expenses of the
convict ectablishureots at Van liemen's Land and N, w
South Wales, were agreed to,
On th, yob-) of 100,0001 for education in Ireland,
Mr. HINE regretted that no report of the previous
history of the experiment hail been laid on the table.
lie had himself visited 'rebind, and when he saw the
sehodts there, and the actual effects of the system, he
was sa!i4fied in his 04n mind that the system was xcel-
lent —(heir, hear.) By it all p4rties were united ; and
he was sure the only way to eff,ct the %amp good end.
the union ()f all parties. in S7otlani and England, wuu:d
be t‘:) adopt the same system.
- -

Mr. LABOUCRFRE said he had re, difficulty in ex
pressing his opinion, that the system, from the results
which hal followed, was the best that could have been
adopted ; and in reference to that country it.elf, the
most adapted. But he did not think that a report
must necassarily be laid upon th 2 table, to induce
the atuse to agree to the vote. At the same time,
h., thought it desirable that incormation should
furnished, and a report would he laid upon the table in a
few tlat st. Three who read that report would at once hd
gratified to mirk how great had been the blessing. 01
04Jueation.—(Hear, hear.) There were half a million of
children, both Catholics and Protestants, often educated
together, but at least all well educated. The R:ght Hon.
G n Leman then read from * document, that there were
456,410 children under a course of education in the Go-
vernment schools; that the last year's increase had been
23,500 children. and 211 schools; that one seventh o,
the children w re P,o e.tants; that of the total number
of schools, viz . 3.986, there was 1,601 in Ulster alone:
that 300 teachers were annually trained, one-fifth of
whom wee Prot4,s•ants; that both Prote,tants and Ca-
tholics were educated together, ire-spective of creeds,
and always with the greatest harmony.
Mr. EWART was gratified with the statement of the
Right Ron Gentleman. But as to the remark of the
H. n. Gentleman about its being adopted in this country,
he had to tell him, that it had been adopted by the t;or-
porativn of Liverpool, and acted on with the happiest
results.

Mr. M'CARTHY said, that amongst all the diff-rent
t education. there was none so much prac-
tical importance Ai th it of agriculture in all its
branches. He h. peel that this branch was not !ess at-
ten:ted to than he other and lesi imp,,rtant branches of
secular education.

Mr. LBOUCHERE said that the subject had not
been lust sight of by th,:. Government, and a proper
system of education on this subject had been es►a
Wished ; the importance of which was fully appreci-
ated both by the Government and the people them-
selves.

After a few words from Mr. VERNON SMITH,
The veto was then agreed to.
0:, the vote for a grant of 6,5001. for the School of
Desige,
Mr. EWART ex!-.ressed his anxioty that one uni-
form system should be kept up in these school,, and
that the taste of pupils in the country should be
modelled and guided by casts of !he best designs from
c.mtral school in London. He was also anxious to
call attention of the House to the instruction of
rem Ales in the schools of design. He he,ped that every
faeility w-uld be granted for the est iblishment of
schools for females in that branch of the arts.
Mr. HAWES answered the observations of the Hon.
'Member, but wa, quite iimadible in the gallery.
After some further conversation the vut:: was agreed
to.

The next vote proposed was 2,006/. for the purpose of
defraying the expenses of certain professors at Oxford
sAtel Camht-iage.
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the sum as extravagant,
con-adering th •en weatth of the Universities.
Mr. ESTCOURT detenaed the vote. The ,urn hart
been sgreed to on a former occasion, when the Crown
appointed those pro'essors, and it had never under art
ti
circtunstunce been inereas-. d. It would, therefore, be
very improper to refuse the vote ;tow, and he trusted the
Ito Ise vv,,uld affirm it.
Mr. EWAR C regretted that the course of education
pursued at the univeriOies was such as to justify such
ohj:•c:ions as had n .w been taken.
Mr. HUME thought the matter a very sh.fhtry busi-
ness altogether. He bed repeate-ly culled on then) to
furnish a statern, nt of their ace,)unt, and fund., but they
nev,i• bad yet furnished it. lie trusted the matter would
be fails inquir ti into. Mr. WAKLEY called the attention of the Govern-
ment to the tact that the profe-sor n''ehemistry had but
10.1. a year. wh,l•• the professor of modern history ILA
35!)1. Th a „flea t., b amended.
A, ter some further discuasion the motion was agreed to.
Thenext vote was for the trum of 4.536/. to defray tht
exo-nses of the L ,salon Univers;ty.
It Wa3 agreed to, after a t,Ar rcm Lrk3 from M--.
III; 41E2.

Th • sum Of 7.4801. wits votod to hp'. Majesty, to
der,ty th” •it th. Seirti+h univer-ities
rile Rex. WAA tor 300/, a grint to the Roysl Irish
Ac wa+ liguled to.
Tswinge. wen. al+o agreed to:-
6 0.);)/ for OP. II rvat Doblin Society.
3.49 J/. for the B-Iftst Inst:torion.
11,-• u xr• v.te was for 47.559/. to defrty the expenses
of thr new of rho Brt ish Museum.
1: was /greed to• after a prirest from Mr. HUME und
Mr. ki/RAIA