The Sun.
London, England, 1847-06-05 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY
__EVENING-, JUNE 5, 1847.

:ieveral Bills were advanced a stage, and
The House adjourned a few minutes past nine o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 4.
The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four
o'clock.

THIRD READINGS.

The following Bills were read a third time and passed
Birmingham, Wolverhampton, and Stour Valley Rail•
way (No. 2) Branches.
Birmingham, Wolverhampton, and Stour Valley Rail.
way (No. I.—Smethwick Deviation).
Bristol and South Wales Junction Railway and Aust
Ferry-.
Coventry, Nuneaton, Birmingham, and Leicester Rail-
way.
Derbyshire, Staffordshire, and Worcestershire Junction
Railway.
Dundee and Newtyle Railway.
Dundee and Perth Railway (Alteration and Extension,
and Inchture, Polgavie, and Inchmichael Branches).
Eastern Counties Railway (Enlargement of the London
and Stratford Stations and Amendment of Acts).
Eastern Counties Railway (Cambridge, Royston, and
Ware Line, &c. 7
Edil.burgh and Bathgate Railway (Deviation nd
Amendment).
IS.ingsnorton, Northfield, &c., Rates.
,Laverpool •
Gas.
London and North-'Western Railway (Coventry and
Nuneaton Branch
London and NorthVeatern Railway (Atherstone any!
Whitacre Branch).
London and North-West R they (Purchase of the
Earl of Ellesmere's interest iiiwitheaySlanchester South
Junction and Altrinchara Ra
Newport Pagnell,
London and North-Western Railway
Olney, and Wellingborough Branch).
indon and North- Western Railway (Portobello and
Wolverhampton Branch, &c.)
o
Railway (Deviation and Lynn D k )
nn and Elyc s .
goi •thampton and Banbury Railway.
Par. kgate and Chester and Birkenhead Junction Rail_
Sandwich Haven.
Wexford Free Bridge.

declared that no reformation could be brought about in
the state of things in the sister kingdom for the next
two years unless two millions of the peasantry of Ireland
were transferred to America. The question of emi-
gration of late had been a good deal discussed,
but no one had ventured to propound a plan,
and he was prepared, therefore, to say to
their Lordships, " Let us have this Committee
of Inquiry, and see if this undiscovered plan of colo-
vnaisnattaigonescmouigldhtbaeriastetafirnnemd.;h—(e
iHngenairr,yh, ebaurt.)at Oaltlheevreandts-
if some others resulted from it the inquiry might have
the effect of setting the public mind at rest upon this
extensive and interesting topic.—(Hear, hear.) Up to
1830 no settled principles of colonisation were adopted
by the Government. About that time a commission
was appointed to inquire into the subject, and the re-
sult of that investigation was the establishmeat of Au-
stralian emigration. Since that period, upwards of
100,000 persons have been transferred from the shores
of the United Kingdom to the colony, and the number
was annually increasing. A good deal of the success
of the system was attributable to the exertions of the
Emigration Commissioners, who had succeeded in
reducing the cost of passage, and producing
such ample accommodation for emigrants, that
the mortality of late amongst emigrants had
not amounted to more that one per cent. It was
the intention of Government to extend the system of
colonisation, which had proved so successful in South
Australia, but before it could be carried on to the extent
recommended by the Noble Lord who had introduced
this motion, a good deal of caution and inquiry was ne-
cessary. True, in America the system had been no less
successful than in South Australia, although it had re-
ceived no Government aid in that quarter. But before
they could turn their attention to that object, some pre-
cautionary measures would have to be taken. Last year
upards of 1,900,000 emigrants were landed in Canada,
who, through the instrumentality of the Emigration
Commissioners, were distributed throughout the country
to places where their labour was likely to become avail-
able to the settlers ; and their Lordships ought to take
care that no act of their's should have the effect
of interrupting or overdoing the beneficial system.
There was now a system of complete protection ifor the
emigrants to Canada, and there was no abuse but was at
once put an end to by the interference of the emigration
agent. The consequence of this was, that emigration
was proceeding steadily and healthily to those colonies.
He said now, however, and he said it formerly, that it
was only a practical delusion on the Irish people to state
that the evils of that country could be remedied by a
system of emigration. He stated so in 1643, and he now
repeated it, that it was impossible by this means to pro-
vide a remedy for the evils under which Ireland was
suffering. He believed that those who were best
acquainted with the subject were of the opinion that
there would not be less than from 200,000 to 300,000
emigrants this year to America. Large as that number
was, he thought they could be provided for, in conse-
quence of the means of distribution which was at
present in existence, and of the deputed for labour. But
if this number was increased to a large extent by
Government interference, he feared that the effect would
be great suffering in the whole body of emigrants, and
that a considerable check would be given by this artifi-
cial stimulation to emigration generally. This hap-
pened in 1832, the year of the cholera, and 'he results
which followed then, and which were well known, would,
he apprehended, again recur if they adopted the same
means to increase emigration, as the colonies would not be
fited to meet the increased demand in their resources,
and would not be able to absorb this surplus labour.
The Noble Lord then read extracts from the dispatches
of Lord Elgin, to the effect that the emigration hitherto
had been easily absorbed, and that any interference
with it might be attended with the most injurious con-
sequences. He (Earl Grey) thought, that if Noble
Lords perused these dispatches—especially those which
arrived recently, it would be apparent to them, that any
artificial increase, such as that proposed, in the number
of emigrants, would not be attended with beneficial
consequences. His Noble Friend (Lord Monteagle),
said, that by the establishment of a system of public
works in Canada, a wide field might be opened for the
absorption of labour. Now he (Earl Grey), would like
to see a system of railways laid down in that colony,
and he would like particularly to see a railway laid down
from Halifax to Canada, as this would open up access
with Canada, at all seasons of the year. If that policy
were adopted, he thought the greatest advantages would
result. But these were not things which could be pushed
on with the rapidity some gentlemen desired. In the
first place the surveys were in a very imperfect condi-
tion, and instructions had lately been given
by the Master-General of the Ordnance to
have them pushed on with as little delay as possible.
Lord Elgin also, it would be seen from these papers, was
to bring the subject before the Local Legislatures of the
colony. Besides these objections, the present financial
state of this country must be considered ; it must not be
forgotten that it was with the greatest difficulty that
they could prevent the Exchequer bills from being re-
turned to the Government, and that they were not in a
condition to give effect to the railway enterprise even of
this country. He was persuaded, however, that all these
evils under which this country was now labouring were
of a transient and passing nature, and that as soon as
they were at an end there would be enterprise sufficient
to carry these Canadian undertakings into effect. There
was only one further point to which he felt it necessary
to allude, namely, the contrast which had been drawn
between Ireland and the American colonies. It had been
stated that these colonies when they were so had got on ad-
mirably ; and that, therefore, had furnished a strong ar-
gument for leaving ourlpresent colonies to their own ex-
ertions. He would conclude by saying that he trusted
that their Lordships would understand that in consenting
to this Committee he did not agree in the practicability
of carrying out this system of emigration upon that gi-
gantic scale which alone could render it an immediate
and effectual remedy for the pressure which now existed.
Lord FITZWILLIAM (who in the commencement of
his observations was quite inaudible) said that it ap-
peared to him that one of the great objections which his
Noble Friend saw to an extended system of emigration
was, the great expense it would entail upon this coun-
try, but that was a difficulty which would in a short
time be removed, although the present state of the
money market might not warrant any great outlay at
present. He thought, however, that any expense that
was incurred by the Government ought to go to the
removal of the evils by which Ireland suffered. The
Government had determined to give pecuniary assist-
ance, so as to encourage the formation of railways in
Canada, and he thought that the same course ought to
be pursued with regard to Ireland, where the distribu-
tion of money would be attended with far more
benfiecial effects. The want of some system
of emigration was universally admitted, and if
the Government did not assent in forwarding
that object, who was to do it ? The landlord
would be unable to carry into effect such an extended
system as would alone be attended with any satisfactory
result, nor, indeed, would they be able to carry it into
effect, so as even to produce any great reduction of the
sufferings of the population. He did say, if this country
did not exert herself more than she did on behalf of the
improvement of Ireland, and the condition of the Irish
people, they would inevitably have to contend with a
popular tumult. He was desirous of seeing the improve-
menteewnea:sse—c
to
eoerf
et
the lao nne
ol
colonies,at adc t
a,
thatlas
because
wesyaausn Nobleisbeeya
nt
far
shFe or
the
me
monf
ey
publiceoh
ysa t d
expended
works,
s opanei
odn
md i ned andrel
pf refer-
must
be largely reproductive. If they did not adopt
these means, unless the population was immensely d-
creased by emigration, the Government would not for
years and years be able to surmount the difficulty at-
tendant upon Ireland. What most impeded this pro-
vess of improvement, was the general public opinion in
which the Government unfortunately participated, that
the calamity of Ireland did not become the calamity of
the empire. That calamity was great. Suppose they
should proceed as they had been doing ; suppose, how-
ever, that instead of the potatoe, they should wish to in-
troduce wheat. It was certain that 2 acres or 2} would
be requisite for the support of a family that used to exist
on 1k acre planted with potatoes. But he was certain
that it was an impossibility to grow two acres of wheat
this year on the land belonginc, to those families which
had raised each but an acre ("potatoes. 'This being so,
he was bold to say, that unless the Govern-
ment was prepared to make up their minds
to adopt a new course, to foster emigration,
and the improvement of Ireland by public works, they
must have recourse again to votes of money for the
support of the helpless in that country.
Lord MONTEAGLE replied—He said he had no ob-
jection to move for the memorial alluded to by the Noble
Earl, just to rescue it from oblivion and the dusty shelf.
The motion was then agreed to, and the Committee
was named.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORTS.
The reports on the following Bills were further con
sid,red and agreed to:—
Lancashire, Cheshire, and North Wales Drainage and
Inelusure Companies Incorporation
London (City) Small D- bts
W,:ymouth and Melcombe Regis Harbour and Bridge
Trusts.
SECOND READINGS.

The following Bills were read a second time, and
ordered to be committed :—Leith Harbour and Docks
Dues ; Lincoln's Inn Rating ; Liverpool Fire and Life
Insurance Company.
REPORTS.

The following reports were brought up, and ordered
to lie on the table :
Aberdeen and Great North of Scotland Railways Amal-
gamation or Leasing.
Aberdeen Railway (Brechin Branch Deviation).
Birmingham and Oxford Junction Railway (Warwick
and Stratford Line).
Buckingham and Brackley Junction Railway, and Ox-
ford and Bletchley Junction Railway Companies
Amalgamation and Extension of Lines.
Cheltenham and Oxford Railway.
East Lancashire Railway (Southport Branch and Preston
Extension).
East Lancashire Railway (Burnley Connecting Line).
East Lancashire Railway (Clitheroe, Mitton, and Padi-
ham Branches).
East Lancashire Railway (Bury to Manchester).
Edinburgh and Northern Railway (Burntisland Pier, &c.)
Edinburgh Waterworks.
Great Northern Railway (Extension to Leeds and
Wakefield Deviation of Methley Branch of Wakefield,
Pontefract, and Goole Railway).
Leeds, Wakefield, and Midland Junction Railway.
Leeds and Thirsk Railway (deviation of main line in
Crimple Valley, &c.)
London and North-Western Railway (Ormskirk and
Rainford Branch, &c.)
London and North Western Railway (Kenilworth to
Berkawell Branches and Extensions, &c.)
London and North-Western Railway (St. Alban's, Lu-
ton, and Dunstable Branch).
Manchester and Leeds Railway (Branches, Extensions,
Deviations, and Alterations of Levels, and other
Works).
Midland Railway (Cheltenham, Warwick, and Learning-
ton Line).
North-Western Railway (Diversions at Skipton, Caster-
' ton, and Sedbergh).
Oxford, Worcester, and Wolverhampton Railway (No. 1)
Extension and Amendment.
Portadown and Dungannon Railway.
Rochdale Canal (Sale to the Manchester and Leeds Rail-
way Company).
St. Helen's Canal and Railway (Warrington and Black-
brook Branches, &c.)
York and Newcastle, Newcastle and Berwick, and North
British Railways Amalgamation.
MANCHESTER AND SOUTHPORT RAILWAY.
On the motion of Mr. ROEBUCK, leave was given to
the Committee on the Manchester and Southport Rail-
way Bill to make their report this day, notwithstanding
one clear day's notice had not been given in the Private
Bill-office ; and the report was brought up and ordered
to lie on the table.
THAMES CONSERVANCY.

Mr. DUNCOMBE moved that Mr. Wortley and Mr.
Cardwell be added to the Committee on the Thames
Conservancy Bill.
Mr. WARD objected to the motion, and intimated
he should be compelled to vote against him if it were
forced to a division.
Sir R. 11. INGLIS thought a sufficient case had been
made out yesterday to warrant an addition to the Com-
mittee.

Mr. T. DUNCOMBE thought that no objection would
be urged by the Committee to the assistance of gentle-
men of ability, like his lion. Friends Mr. Cardwell and
Mr. Wortley. They not only would, by the addition of
these gentlemen, be receiving an infusion of new blood,
but of legal blood—(Laughter)—which was still better ;
and after what they had heard yesterday he did not
think that the House would do well to remit the ques-
tion to the same Committee—a Committee composed of
the Admiralty and the Court of Aldermen—(Laughter)
—a happy conjunction.—(Laughter.) Why, the Court
of Aldermen were of opinion that if they did not get
this Bill through Parliament this session they would cot
get it through at all, and therefore it was that they
were so opposed to the introduction of new Members.
Mr. WILLIAMS was not surprised that the Secre-
tary to the Admiralty should be opposed to this Com-
mittee, for when, as he understood, the Committee
were themselves divided in opinion upon the Bill, the
Hon. the Secretary to the Admiralty decided in its
favour by his casting vote. But the Hon. the Secretary
said that this Bill should be approved of, and he con-
sidered that the Court of Aldermen was a proper Court
to have charge of this Bill.
Mr. WARD explained in a few words.
Sir DE LACY EVANS said that if the motion of
the Hon. Member for Finsbury should not be carried
he would feel it his duty to propose that the Hon. Mem-
ber for Finsbury and the Hon. Member for Westminster
be appointed conservators of the River, in addition to
the Members appointed by the Bill.
Mr. HODGSON was understood to oppose the motion.
Mr. HUME could not assent to the propositions which
had been made, and he believed unquestionably that the
change which he recommended would be serviceable, yet
he was ready to accede to the decision of the House.—
(Cries of " Divide, divide.")
The House was then cleared for a division, but
The motion was agreed to without a division.
BELFAST IMPROVEMENT.
Mr. ROSS moved that the Committee on the Belfast
Improvement Bill do not proceed with the said Bill until
the returns relative to the Belfast Corporation shall
have been laid before the House. He understood that
the motion was to be resisted by a Noble Lord opposite,
because it was supposed that he wanted to get rid of
this Committee by a side wind, but really and truly he
had no such desire. He enter twined no doubt whatever
that no case could be made out for the Bill, and sure he
was that it would be defeated in a legitimate manner ;
but if the inquiry were gone into, he wanted the Com-
mittee to be in possession of information that would
enable them to arrive at a just and proper conclusion.
Mr. F. FRENCH trusted the House would not esta-
blish the dangerous precedent of entertaining a resolution
of this nature. The Bill was generally approved by the
I authorities. It had been reported upon favourably by
the Admiralty Surveyor, and he did not think it right
that any obstacles should be thrown in the way of the
Bill. He trusted under these circumstances Mr. Hume
would not sanction the motion of the Hon. Gentleman.
After a few words from Lord CHICHESTER,
Mr. GREENE would submit toithe Hon. Member op-
posite whether it would not be better to leave it to the
Committee themselves.
Mr. ROSS assented to this suggestion, and the motion
was accordingly withdrawn.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
Messengers from the Lords brought up several Bills.
ILLEGAL IMPRISONMENT.
Mr. FERRAND desired to know from the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Depart-
ment, what steps had been taken with reference to the
illegal commitment of Mary Dawson, who had been com-
mitted to prison for three weeks, and punished on the
treadmill, for no crime whatsoever ; he also desired to
know what further steps he considered it his duty to
take.

Sir G. GREY said that in consequence of the repre-
sentations which had been made to him, he had the
warrant of committal transmitted, and he was advised
that it was an illegal commitment, as the magistrates had
convicted under one Act and sentenced under another.
The conviction took place under the 17th of George
cap. 56, and the sentence under the 67th of George IV.
POSTPONEMENT OF THE ASSIZES IN
IRELAND.

Mr. S. O'BRIEN wished to ask a question of the Right
Iron. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, of which he
had not given notice: it was with reference to the post-
ponement of the assizes in Ireland by the judges. The
gaols were in a very crowded state, and the precedent
was not a good one, but was most objectionable It also
appeared that the postponement wuuld not have any
b,neficial effect, as matters were not likely to mend.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that the judges had come
to a resolution that a postponement was desirable, but
he was not properly informed upon the subject as yet.
PORTUGAL.

---
Mr. HUME desired to know from the Noble Lord
whether the promised papers in reference to Portugal
would be soon laid upon the table of the House ? He
was determined to persevere in his intentiontof making
his :notion of Monday next.
Lord J. RUSSELL—The papers will be on the table
of the House upon Monday next, and I propose to go
into Commtttee of Supply on Friday next, on which day
it will be open to the Hon. Gentleman to bring forward
his motion.
Mr. HUMS—The question is of too much import-
ance to further postpone it.
Sir DE LACY EVANS said that he hoped that the
Hon. Gentleman would not persevere with his motion
unless he was of opinion that gentlemen could discuss a
question better in the absence of all information than
otherwise. He did earnestly desire him to postpone his
motion.

Mr. OSBORNE said that the House was aware that
a collision had already taken place between her Ma-
jesty's navy and that of Portugal. His own opinion
was so strong on this subject, that if the Hon. Member
had not pressed his motion, he should in the course of
the evening., have taken:some opportunity of bringing
the matter forward. The Government had every advan-
tage on its side in keeping these papers, while the
House was totally ignorant of their nature.—(Hear.)
Mr. BORTHWICK said that the Noble Lord the
Secretary for Foreign Affairs. had last night informed
the House that if possible he should lay this case on the
table of the House this evening, and that Hon. Members
should be in possession of the papers on Monday morn•
ing. is 1826, the 11th December, Mr. Canning, under
eircurnstacxes similar to the present, had come to the bar
of the House snd read a paper from the Crown, stating
that the interfeii.nce of lEngland had been requested, and
he apologised for the lateness of the information, al-
tkongt he had only received it himself on the previous Friday. Mr. Canning had on that occasion given the
information as early as pcsAbie, and had sought the
sanction of Parliament for the interference, and he

thought that a similar course ought to be pursued on
the present occasion. The interference which had taken
place on a former occasion, with the sanction of Parlia-
ment, had been successful, and all Europe felt the benefit of
.It. The lion. and Gallant Member for Westminster said

th;y ought not to argue the question in ignorance.
The:e was no necessity that they should do so, for the
Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs could
abundan.`l9 Supply them with all information. He
thought th.e House ought to be placed in possession of
the reasons which urged her Majesty's Government to in-
terfere with the liberties of a nation, in order to sup-
port the !Authority
of a despotic Government.
Lord :PALVERSTON said that he wished to ob-

servo that the House ought to be fully informed of the
grounds on whioh the Government acted. But it ap •
peered, from the course now pursued by Hon. Members,
' that they wished to come to this di-cussion without being
so info med. He could assure the House that ever y exer-
tion would be made to supply the House with the papers
at the earliest opportunity, and he hoped that if they
were not laid upon the table on Monday they would be
in possession of Hon. Members before Friday. He did
not wish to follow the Hon. Member throughout his
argument, but he was convinced that when the papers
were produced, the House would see that the interfer-
ence of the Government was not with the intention
of establishing despotism, but to secure the people of
Portugal in the full enjoyment of those liberties which
had been secured to them by the charter of Don Pedro.
Lord J. MANNERS said, that the object of Hon.
Members in pressing forward the motion was that some
measures might be taken which would be attended with
some good effect before it was too late. The Honour-
able Member for Wycombe had told the House that
a collision had already taken place between her
Majesty's fleet and the forces of the insurgents.
It was because they were anxious that the cause of the
people of Portugal should not suffer by any delay, that
thew wished to proceed with promptitude.
Lord H. VANE said that he would suggest to his
Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose to allow the
discussion to take place on Thursday next. The House
would then be in possession of the papers on Monday,
and be fully informed on the subject by Thursday.
Mr. HUME said, if he could bring on his motion on
Thursday, as a substative motion, that it should take
precedence of the other business, he would consent to
defer it till then.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he understood the
Honourable Member wished to bring on his motion
on the day fixed for the Supply, but if he would bring
it on on Thursday he would be ready to postpone all the
other business. The Honourable Gentleman had
mentioned that a collision had taken place between
her Majesty's forces and those of the Queen of
Portugal. His (Lord John Russell's) im-
pression, from the accounts in the papers, was
that the collision was between the forces of the Queen of
Portugal and some German vessels.
Mr. HUME said that under these circumstance he
wished to give his notice of motion for Thursday next.
The subject then dropped.
Mr. COLLETT would ask the First Lord of the
Treasury, whether it was the intention of her Majesty's
Government, during the present Parliament, to supply
the deficiency in the number of Members of this House
caused by the disfranchisement of the borough of Sud-
bury?
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Government had
no intention whatever of bringing in such a Bill dur-
ing the present session of Parliament, nor did he see
any reason for the introduction of such a Bill, or that
there was any necessity, unless a special case was made
out for giving two new Members to the House of Corn-
mons.—(Laughter.)
Mr. COLLETT then begged to give notice that he
should shortly move for leave to bring in a Bill to make
Chelsea a borough.—(Laughter.)
THE WELLINGTON STATUE.
Mr. CRAVEN BERKELEY begged to ask the
Noble Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests,
whether there was any intention of removing the 'Wel-
lington statue from the arch opposite to Hyde-
park? Whether there had been any communication
with the Committee appointed to place it there? And
how long it would be before the statue was removed
from its present site?

Lord MORPETH said, that in reply he had to say,
that it was the wish of her Majesty, that the statue
should be remcved from the arch. That intimation
had been given to the Committee, and in reply they had
stated that it was their impression that sufficient care
had not been taken to guard the scaffolding about the
arch. When they intended to remove the statue he
could not say, for he was not acquainted with the state
of the Committee's funds, hut he might say that both
t,e sculptor and the architect wer, dissatisfied with the
effect of the statue as it now stands. And he had only
further to say, that her Majesty had signified her plea-
sure whenever the House should vote funds for the
completion of the arch, according to the original design,
that any further decorations placed upon it should be
illustrations of the achievements of the Duke of Wel-
lington, and should mark the sense of the country of his
merits and deserts.—(Hear, hear.)
REDUCTION OF DUTY ON SALT IN INDIA.
Viscount SANDON put a question to the President
of the Board of Control, whether he had received in-
telligence of a notification published by the Deputy
Governor of Bengal, on the 31st day of March, 1847, by
which on and after the Ist day of April, 1847, the prices
of salt in store in Calcutta, manufactured under the Go-
vernment monopoly, and the duty on imported salt, were
to be reduced, but unequally, and without notice to the
importers ; and if so, what steps the Government in this
country are prepared to take in respect of such enact-
ment?

Sir JOHN CAM HOBHOUSE had to inform the
Noble 14)rd that it was perfectly true that the Indian
Government had thought fit to reduce the duty on native
and British imported salt. The best thing, however,
which he thought he could do, was to present to the
House the papers from the Indian Government which
related to that notification. A great mistake had been
made with respect to the duty upon British and upon
native salt, as it was stated that they were not the same,
whereas the duty upon both was reduced 25 rupees.
There had been no unfair play whatever against the in-
troduction of British salt. It was true the Government
of Bengal had made an exception with respect to a cer-
tain description of salt, but the papers which he intended
to present to the House (and he held a copy of them in
his hands), would give the fullest information on the
subject. It was stated on the 25th of March, 1846, that
an alteration would be made after the Ist of April, 1847,
so that the parties were not taken by surprise, and must
have been fully prepared for the change which had taken
place.
In reply to Sir JOHN FAKING TON,
Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE said that the change had not
taken place as a counter blow to anything which had
been done.

WELLINGTON STATUE.
Lord J. MANNERS wished to know whether it was
the intention of her Majesty's Government to commence
the pedestal of the Wellington statue before an estimate
was submitted to Parliament of its expenses.
Lord MORPETII said that if the plan and estimates
were ready they would most certainly be submitted to the
house ; and it was not the intention of the Government
to remove the statue from its present position until the
pedestal was ready.
MARY DAWSON,
Mr. FERRAND said that it was his intention to
bring the committal of this case at an early day before
the House.
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN wished to know whether
Government intended to proceed with the Agricultural
Statistics Bill this session?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
.n answer to the question of the Hon. Gentleman the
Member for Cockertnouth it was quite true that a report
had reached the Government that the potato disease
had again made its appearance, but he thought that it
was too early at present to form any certain judgment
upon the subject, as last year the great attack of the
potato disease did not come until Juiy. In answer to
the Hon. Member who had last spoken, the Government
did not intend to proceed with the Agricultural Statistics
Bill in the course of the present session.
Mr. OSBORNE said that there were two different
sorts of potato, the early and the late, and the early
potato had shown symptoms of a disease entirely dif
rerent from the disease of last yi-ar. He thought that
the Government ought to use some measure to hinder
the people of Ireland from sowing the quantity of po
tatoes which they were at present putting down, as the
disease appeared likely to spread.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that there was a body
celled the Agricultural Society of Dublin, which took a
great interest, in the general agriculture of the country.
He thought that it would be far better for such a body
to give advice than for the Government to take upon
itself the great responsibility of advising what course
the people should pursue upon such a subject.
Sir H. W. BARRON said that if the people were encon
raged to sow any substitute for the potato, it should be
the one which had been recommended in the Gardener's
Chronicle, namely, haricot beans. These beans formed
an article of fool to the lower classes of people in very
large districts of France, Spain, and Portugal.
Mr. E. B. ROACH said that when he had left Ireland
a few days hence, he had not heard any report of the re-
appearance of the potato disease. He had been round
100 acres sown with nearly every sort of potato, and in
not one single instance had any tendency to disease been
observed. He thought it would be the better way to put
in crops of late turnips, which he had done with great
success last year.
Mr. OSBORNE explained, and the subject dropped.

CHARdES ON VESSELS.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in reply
to a question from Mr. E WART, stated that an arrange-
ment had been made last year in reference to this sub-
ject.

'PUBLIC WORKS IN IRELAND.
Lord G. BENTINCK said he wished to ask his Right
Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchepuer whether
he was in a condition to inform the House what would
be the expense of the staff employed on the public works
in Ireland, or whether the cost of the rations was 2d. or
lastdt
year,eaci ?Nir o uAI dls oa
owuht t t towaa sb
o lui kt
5,800 clerks and overseers, which, if it Tailed that of
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that it was perfectly impossible to give a direct answer
to the first question of his Noble Friend, but he was
quite readytoe7l3yo,o 0 be.
the cost of
to lay on the table of the House the last
return which had been received. He could not say
exactly, at the present moment, what the outlay was
last Saturday. The rations had varied from 21d: to a
halfrenny, but he believed that the average was a penny.
Lord G. BENTINCK said that they had had the re-
turn of the expense of the staff up to the last statement,
and it was there asserted that the whole, or at least a
great number of the labourers had been dismissed, and
he desired to know whether there had been any pro-
portionate reduction of the staff. By the last returns,
it appeared that the weekly cost was 14,9001., and that
the number of rations issued daily was 2,200,000,000.
It would appear by this that the yearly expenditure in
this department alone, would be upwards of 700,0001.
and this, he thought, required explanation.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that he did not state what the cost of each return was,
but he stated that the cost would be 2,600,000/.
e whole _

IRISH RAILWAYS.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, in answer to a ques-
tion, that it was not his intention to proceed with the
vote for Irish railways on Monday next.
PORTUGAL.
Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE gave notice that, in the
event of Mr. Hume not persisting in his motion, re-
specting Portugal, he would move, on Tuesday next,
that it was hostile to liberty, and injurious to the in•

terests of this country, to enter into any convention,
having for its object the upholding of any dynasty in
foreign countries, or suppressing public opinion in
them.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL explained to the Hon. Gen-
tleman that his motion could not be taken before the
other motions which had been fixed for Monday.
Mr. SPOONER stated that he had given notice that
on the order of the day being read on Monday, he
should call the attention of the House to the recall of
Sir Eardley Wilmot.
COSTS TAXATION BILL.

On the motion of Mr. HUME, this order of the day
was postponed until next Friday.
LOAN DISCOUNT BILL.
On the order of the day for the third reading of the
Loan Discount Bill,
Mr. GISBORNE said that he had been informed that
there would be very little discussion upon this Bill, and
if that were the general sense of the House, he was
quite willing to abide by it, but if the Chancellor of the
Exchequer were to make another speech, and other
gentlemen were to speak, he thought it but fair that he
and others should also give their opinions upon this mea-
sure and the Bill of 1844.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that he had never said that this order of the day• was to
go off without any discussion. He had heard that there
would not be any prolonged debate on this subject, but
he had never stated that fact to which the Hon. Member
had alluded.
Mr. GISBORNE said that he was sorry to have mis-
represented his• Right Honourable Friend, but when the
statement that this was to be the first order of the day,
had been made, he was not present, and he had heard
that there was to be no discussion upon it at all.
After a few words from Sir G. GREY, which did not
reach the gallery,
Lord GEORGE BENTINCK said that it was no in-
tention of his to protract the debate, as he understood
that the matter would be taken up by abler hands, and
he had only spoken for himself, when he said that there
would be no debate upon this measure. He had in-
tended to bring in a Bill to repeal the Bank charter of
1844.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that if there were any inten-
tion of bringing any measure forward, for the alteration
or repeal of the Bank charter of 1844, it had better be
brought forward in the shape of a motion.
Sir R. PEEL said that it would be better to bring this
matter forward in a more substantial way, and he for one
should not trouble the House with any observations oa
this occasion.
Mr. BERKELEY said that the better course would be
to allow the Bill to pass without any discussion.
After a few words from Mr. HUDSON, which did
not reach the gallery,
Sir R. PEEL said a few words in explanation.
Mr. BARING said he thought that the discussion
had better be taken upon a practical measure.
Mr. SPOONER said that he wished, if he went at all
upon the subject, to enter upon it fully, which he could
not do then. He thought that the debate had better be
adjourned to another time, provided the Noble Lord the
Member for Lynn would give an assurance that the
subject would be again brought forward in another shape.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he at first understood
that the discussion would be upon the Bill itself, but he
afterwards understood that the discussion would be taken
upon a more substantive measure. with reference to the
Bill.

Lord G. BENTINCIC said that he had another friend
who intended to bring forward a Bill for the Repeal of
the Bank Charter of 1844, and if that Hon. Friend did
not do so. he should do so himself.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that he was happy to inform the House that 2,678,0001.
had been paid ep already upon this Bill.
Mr. SPOONER urged that the Right Hon. Baronet
should not have refused the offer which was made to
pay up the money upon this Bill. That refusal had en-
couraged the bankers to believe that the Right Hon.
11,ronet had a sufficiency to meet the demand upon
him. He ought to have foreseen the consequences of
his measure, and he ought to have informed the con-
tractors for this loan that a demand would be made
upon the Bank, and not have kept them in perfect ig-
norance upon this subject. The refusal of the Right
Hon. Baronet to receive the money at the time when he
was making a demand upon the Bank, was not in Pe-
cordanee with sound policy, or even fairness to those
who were making the advances.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that it was quite true that at the time he refused the
money that he did not think he should want it, nor was
there any circumstance which he could foresee which
would lead him to the belief that he should want it until
the proper time for payment came.
Mr. NEWDEGATE rejoiced that the debate of this
day had called forth from the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer a more favourable bulletin with respect to the " Old
Lady" in Threadneedle-street, than he was able to issue
upon the occasion of the last debate. He thought it hard
to saddle upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer the
blame of causing the pressure which had existed on the
money market,
The Bill was then read a third time and passed.
PRISONS BILL.—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
On the order of the day for the adjourned debate on
the Prisons Bill,
Mr. EWART said that he differed from the Hon,
Member for Southwark (Sir Wm. Molesworth), who
stated in his speech last evening that he should not have
been surprised to have heard of some calamity which
would have swept from the face of the earth theinhabi-
tants of that wretched colony. He did not think that
the vengeance of Heaven, if he might use so
strong a term would have fallen upon the guiltless inha-
bitants of that place, but rather the dire visitation would
have fallen upon the heads of the legislators of the mo-
ther country. When he brought forward his motion in
the last session the House was counted out ; but he was
fully convinced at that time that a period would soon
arrive when the subject would be brought more fully
and seriously under the consideration of the House by
the Government itself ; and those anticipations were
now fully borne out, and the Government had brought
forward a measure, embodying almost the identical plan
which it was then his intention to have proposed to the
House, had it not been that the then Government care-
lessly allowed the House to be counted out upon
so important a subject. With respect to the Bill
now before the House, he approved of the proposition
as carrying out the separate system as at Pentonville,
but he disapproved of the proposed plan of making the
convicts work together in gangs; he entirely disapproved
of any system of congregating together those persons.
It was an admitted principle that the convicts, when they
entered the prison, should see as little as possible of each
other. After the prison discipline had been fully carried
out on the convict, was it not an absurd thing to bring
the convict out of the influence of this separate system,
place him along with numerous others of a similar or
worse character than himself, and thus afford him
the fullest opportunity for falling back into those vicious
habits from which he had been weaned by the influence of
the separate system? He regretted, therefore, that the
Government had thought proper to introduce this sys-
tem into their plan. The system of assignment was a
good system only on account of its being in effect a
separate system, and upon that ground infinitely supe-
rior to any system which proposed to deport the con
vista en mu+se, and in a congregated and gregarious
body to one colony or penal settlement. He did not
think that much weight was to be attached to the de-
cision of the judges upon this point. They were in
their habits entirely microscopic, and it was:quite as
natural to suppose that the powers of a microscope were
similar to those of a telescope, as that the minds of
persons long habituated to the study of the subtleties
of legal lore should be supposed to be able to give a
correct opinion upon so enlarged a question as th it of
.ransportation. And with ail deference to these Learned
Judges, he would say that they were the last persons
in the country to whose authority he would defer upon
a question of this kind. With two exceptions, one in
Germany and the other in Prussia, the dis
tinguished men who had turned their attention
to the subject were in favour of separate con-
finement, as a great means of reformation.
Many Hon. Gentleman did not distinguish properly be
tween separate and silent confinement. Separate con-
finement did not restrict communication with others, as
the prisoner had intercourse with those who were likely
to do him good and not evil ; but the silent system was
more severe in its nature, as the person so incarcerated
had but little communion with others. He entirely co-
incided with that part of the Right Hon. Baronet's state.
went which had reference to employing the prisoners at
fixed labour, a system which had been introduced with
the best effects among the prisoners intrusted to the care
of Captain Macconochi. Although he differed with some
of the details of the measure, he generally concurre,:
in it, because it proposed the system of separate
confinement, improved discipline, and because it did not
destroy hope in the minds of the guilty, for if they de-
stroyed hope in the minds of these unfortunate persons,
they would find that all their exertions at imprisonment
would be futile.

Mr. HOPE had no intention to object unnecessarily
to the measure of the Government, and trusted he might,
in the course of his address, be enabled to assist the
Government in some of the details which were to be en-
countered in a plan fraught with so many difficulties as
that of convict discipline. He regretted that the Right
Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark (Sir.W. Moles-
worth) had reflected so severely upon the conduct of his
Noble Friend Lord Stanley. He had matured a plan
of convict discipline, but if it had failed, surely the Noble
Lord ought not to be blamed for the faults and failure
of his agents, and they were selected from those who
seemed best adapted for carrying out the system he had
proposed. It seemed to him, also, that the Hun. Baronet
had not paid that attention to the Right Hon. Baronet's
speech, which it deserved from one who differed with the
plan he proposed. When his Noble Friend acceded to
office, the system of convict discipline was in a most
imperfect state, and he did his best to remedy it ; and
he appealed confidently to the public to pass judgment
upon the course which his Noble Friend adopted, because
he believed it was carefully revised, and would have
been most successful, if it had been properly carried out.
lie had no intention to advert unnecessarily to the con-
duct of the late Sir Eardley Wilmot, but he could not
help stating that that gentleman, in a communication to
Mr. Gladstone, dated July, 1846, spoke favourably of the
system of probation passes, and of the good which had
been effected by his system. With respect to Major
Childs, he thought it right to state that he had
been recommended to his Noble Friend as a gallant
officer of Marines, as a good disciplinarian, and as
.likely
to fill the office with advantage, which his Noble Friend
had found some difficulty in filling. The office was that
of a gaoler, without society, as it was in an isolated part
of the colony. But his Noble Friend ought not to be
blamed for the conduct of Major Childs, because he hats
appointed him under the belief that he was the best per-
son to fill the office; and here he ought to state, that his
Noble Friend had appointed persons without favour, and
with a sole desire to promote the public service. He (Mr.
Hope) was in favour of giving the convicts, when they
reached their destination, probation papers, because, It

they conducted themselves improperly, they could be
revoked ; but the plan of giving them their
discharge as soon as they arrived at the end
of th- it journey, might lead to great evils.
He therefore contended that the views of the Right
Hon. Gentleman were perfectly consistent with the
measure of her Majesty's Government. He did admit
the difficulties of controlling distant colonies, but the
spirit of economy, which was meant for the good of the
country, was too much developed over the other side of
the world. A more liberal expenditure would secure them
a better inspection, for the amount of remuneration was
not at the present moment sufficient. The evils which
were admitted to have arisen did so from the want of
the commonest vigilance, from the result of separation,
from the want of employment, and the want of accom-
modation. He believed that if greater facilities were
afforded they would remedy all these evils ; and the
Australasian colonies afforded the very best means to
effect the object which ought to be d, sired. They had
numerous natural prisons where seclusion was
effected by nature, and from whence escape
would be less frequent as this attempt would be more
difficult. All they wanted in Van Diemen's Land was
labour; they had in that country, with a population of
60,000, an area equal to that which Ireland presented
with 8,000,000. It was not his intention to impugn the
separate system, but the House should not so easily
believe that in this system they had the cure of all the
evils complained of; it appeared to him that too much
had been said in its favour, for it was a notorious fact
that many of those who were the best conducted con-
victs in Pentonville had proved themselves the worst in
the penal colonies. In the last report which had been
made upon the convicts who had been sent from
Pentonville, and who had obtained whilst there high
marks of confidence, in which it was stated that they
gave way to temptation the first moment it was placed in
their power. The reason of this might be that the
criminal was too soon exposed to danger, and in his
opinion the separate system would he much better pre-
ceded by the gang proposition, thus the criminal would
first receive his punishment, and when his mind was in
a healthy state, then the separate system would work
well. The second stage appeared to him to be encum-
bered with more than financial difficulties. There was
a feeling, a desire of reaching home, which
could not be gratified in the penal colonies.
and, therefore, one of the motives towards the reclama-
tion of the convict did not exist. They had the ex-
ample of a neighbouring country, France, on this
subject, where a military system existed, but so diffi-
cult was it to control convicts, that though a sentry
stood with a loaded piece on the ramparts of their pri-
sons, yet still they found it impossible to make the
system work well, and whole districts were overrun by
runaway convicts, who carried with them all the
contamination which was the natural consequence
of their dissolute lives. A large portion of
the convicts might, under the present system,
be sent abroad under control. If sufficient information,
pro tanto, could not be obtained, he would wish to know
what course the Right Hon. Gentleman would propose ?
He was afraid that the system proposed by this Bill
would entirely fail. In 1845, in France, under the penal
system, 7,961 men were withdrawn. Out of a popula-
tion of about 35,000,000, about 8,000 had been removed
from the country. As to the general effect of transpor-
tation, he might refer to the advantages that accrued to
the penal colonies from the system of transportation.
He would refer to the authority of Mr. Baker, a barris-
ter who, speaking of Sydney, spoke in the most favour-
able terms of the state of society there ; and this was
most important, because Sydney was a great resort of
convicts ; and then the vices of prostitution and drunk-
enness were, for its population, numerically small. He
thought, therefore, the case for the total abolition was
not made out so strongly as to call upon the House to
give its assent to a system to that effect.—(Hear, hear.)
If it was intended to establish any sy 'tern of transporta-
tion, and apply the system of giving tickets of leave, a
new and entirely independent colony would have to be
founded for the purpose. There could be no doubt that
the colony of South Australia owed its prosperity to the
assistance it had derived at an early stage of its exist-
ence from convict labour.
Mr. E. DENISON had considerable fear, from what
had passed in another place, that the system of trans-
oortation was to be put an end to, and a system of
exile, or voluntary banishment, was to take its
place. He was happy to see that the system
was not to be abolished, --nnd that convicts
were not to be sent out of the country to exile as free
men, but under supervision, and under a system or
tickets of leave. The present state of Norfolk Island
was mainly owing to the maladministration of the af-
fairs of that colony. The course pursued by Captain
Alacconochie was more adapted to the government of
persons not predisposed to crime, rather than to persons
who had, in most of the cases been twice convicted and
once transported from this country, and which could
only be considered as the scum of society, which had
risen twice at least to the surface of the putrescent mass
of crime congregated in that colony. Upon the com-
mencement of his reign he distributed among the con-
victs allowances of grog, and entertained them with fire-
works and plays. It had been said that the sys-
tem of transportation was not looked upon as
a terror in this country. A report had been
presented to the House by the Coriunittee appointed to
inquire into the subject, in which it was strongly re
commended that as capital punishment had le.-en eery
much reduced in extent, it was highly necessary that
some effective secondary system of punishment should
be kept -Up. The opinion of Mr. Baron Alderson, re-
ferred to last night by the Hon. Member for Southwark
was not a fair exposition of his Lordship's opinion, as in
the portion of his evidence directly bearing on the ques •
tion of transportation, he stated that transportation was
absolutely necessary. The opinions of Lord Denman,
Mr. Baron Parke, Mr. Baron Rolfe, Mr. Justice Erle,
Mr. Justice Wightman, most, if not all, of the superior
judges in the Scotch Courts, Barons Lefroy and Penne-
father, of the Irish Courts, were also decidedly favour-
able to the continuation of the system of transportation.
as the most effective system of secondary pueishment.
There was no doubt that the colonists of New
South Wales were favourable to the assignment system,
and he felt that if something of the nature of the assign-
ment system could be connected with the punishment of
transportation, it would have the best effects upon the
criminal, while it would directly benefit the colony
to which he might be banished. The inhabitants of
many of the penal settlements found a difficulty in pro-
curing free labour, and they were naturally anxious for
the establishment of some system which should enable
them to take advantage of the services of the convict.
lie thought, therefore, that Government ought to turn
their attention to this branch of the subject. He was
quite ready to leave the matter in their hands, and he
hoped, now they were about to introduce some improve-
ment into the existing system of transportation, that his
suggestion would not be lost sight of.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir JOHN PAKINGTON could not agree with the
opinions expressed by the Hon. Gentleman who had just
resumed his seat, nor could he concur in the
plan which her Majesty's Government had
nrought forward, no doubt with the best in-
tentiens. 'Phis question of secondary punishment
had occupied the attention of successive Parliaments,
but instead of its leading to any improvement in the
system it would appear that year after year the subject
was becoming more unsettled and more coatis@d 11t
Baronethcarefullyad the Secretarymid
otthesstpaeteechfoesr Rightotfhethaeome epaHornt
anent, and of toe Noble Lord the Secretary for the
examined
Colonies, and he must express his regret, that it ap-
peared to him that her Majesty's Government
tied not paid that attention to the subject which
it; importance demanded. It was said that the
probationary system, as established by Lord
Stanley, had failed, Now Honourable Gentlemen
who made that assertion should remember that Lord
Stanley made his experiment under very difficult cir-
-umstances; but supposing the probationary system had
failed, it did not therefore follow that the punishment
of transportation ought to be abolished. He had the
fullest confidence in the probationary system. It had
never yet had a fair trial, and he very much regretted
to find her Majesty's Government proposing their pre-
sent plan as a permanent one. The Right Honourable

Baronet opposite, in a letter he had written to Earl
Grey upon the subject of this plan, said it was

to be an experiment ; why, then, had the
Right Honourable Baronet departed from the
declaration contained in that letter. Now, let him
point out one of the difficulties which surrounded this
plan. Under thti existing system, it occasionally hap-
pened that the sentence of transportation was passed
upon an offender, and yet, from the complicated nature
~f the law, the criminal often. left the dock without
knowing what would be his real punishment. Now, the
difficulty of such a system had long been felt, but under
the change now proposed the law would be rendered still
more uncertain. The sentence of transportation if this
plan were adopted, would some times turn out to be
merely a tirade of words, and the criminal, after his
trial would return to his cell, not knowing whether he
was to be shut up in a prison at home or sent abroad
with his family to a flourishing colony, and there set
free to enjoy a state of things that was far more pros-
perous and happy than the condition of the honest
labourer at home. He could not agree in the propriety
of such a' change, and he regretted very much that it
should have emanated from her Majesty's Government.
He did not point out these defects in the plan from a
factious opposition to her Majesty's Government; but
with the view of pointing out the difficulties they were get-
ting into by adopting hasty changes in the law. To the
first portion of toe plan, he would give his support. It
would prove a satisfactory change in the law, and he hat',
no doubt it would produce the most beneficial results.
upon criminal offenders; but with regard to the second
stage of the plan, he entertained the most unqualified
opposition to such a change. He did not see any reason
for depriving the honest industrious labourer of ern•
ployment, by bringing the criminal offender into compe-
tition with him. Such a proposal was opposed to
all
principles of sound legislation, and he was surprised 'to
see a gentleman with the experience of the Noble Secre-
tary for the Colonies, advocating such a change in the
system.
remonstrances
o onstranc have detained
m of the
other House of Parliament, after the
system. These were the views he entertained upon
es
theth House
eeuhjeest.o long,ne was
but after bu
expression of the
opinion of the judges against the charge, did hope
the measure would not be proceeded with, he
and should
any vote be proposed to arrest the pro
he should certainly support it.—(Hear,
of the Bill
Mr. HUM w
E said there were fe hear.)
subjects of more
importance than that at present before the House. With
respect to the Bill itself, he must say that he entirely
concurred in the principle of •
it, as he thought
the general central superintendence which it created
would be attended with the best possible results. One
of the grand evils at present existing in the
prisons of this country was thewn t
he was long of opinion that theya
os
}lf
()nla uniformity
have,rm ity beenan d
changed, and that they should be
under one individual
management. There ought to be a Minister of Public
Justice, to whom should be confided
the general super-
intendence of all matters of this kind. lie listened with

, great satisfaction to the speech of the RightHott. Baronet,
and he very much approved of the principles he laid
down. He differed, however, very much from the Hon.
Member for Dumfries, and the Hon. Member for
Southampton. He did not object to the punishment of
transportation, but to the mode in which it was carried
out. For a long time transportation was not considered
a punishment at all, and the consequence was most in-
jurious, as it ceased to operate as a preventive of arime
As an Hon. Member said to-night, there were three par*
ties to this question—the colonists, the British penlge,
and the criminal—and the interests of none of these
were consulted. They had not less than from 20 to
30,000 convicts in this populous country, and, according
to Mr. Russell, there were convicted within the last five
years, 108,800 persons. His opinion was, that those
who were sent abroad would be worse at the end of the
term of expatriation, under the plan of the Government!,
than they were before. He had questioned managersof
gaols of twenty years standing--he had consulted ma.
gistrates of the City of some considerable experience
a
the late Alderman Wood for instance—le
hear)—and he found that confinement in this
country had little effect, and what better would the
convicts be by being sent abroad, where a ohanic"e.
of scene and their liberty would lead them to fres
crimes ? But they would endanger the safety of Weie./
by confining such an immense number of offenders in
this country. There would be 30,000 or 40,000 prisoners
confined in the gaols of this country, bat if there was
any outbreak, the greatest danger might come. They
sitolwdoieurlsd
tb.oer
had not two large a number of soldiers in this countri
for the duties they were called upon to perform, atonal
which
might ensue. But what benefit would there be in the why
would be the advantage of the so
stage ? If they= let men loose in their coloaies,
e
etheeeepsuzs%rynsteoohfarveeprless,soh3oog or 16,000 ad
he wished to n
which they had undei gone? Then
some line drawn between those transported for seve
fourteen, and for a longer term. conductedof the convicts
themselves
they had sent to the colonies had .
well; in fact, but for them 30,000,0001b5. of wool would
not have been sent to this country. Therefore, the PIT
paanr:cborneafiknemse:
sent system if carried out properly svould, he conceinven_
answer well. To show that the confinement of rise
,t;
at home did not promote their moral refortuatio.n,...e.
quoted an extract from a report to show that the
per
committals committals of criminals in Scotland was sixty-seven Pent
cent. In Liverpool, during a period of seven kyles,
500 under 17 years of age had been' committed' of 51,000 prisonersd32,ooo males, and 19,00Y0e
noo
erice,
of maturer age were committed, and 25,000 twice, t bad
four, and five times committed; and a person
;W that a
visited Tothill-fields yesterday, had informed blip .
person was confined there who had been couttnitetel
180 times.—(Laughter.) The difference hetwaad
the number of prisoners convicted in France
i_
of
England was not more than 1,000,0001. The svh°„to
thethe
galleysre-c om re-commitments mp
eern tese
cent.
; France
Belgium,w as 3 3331:ienprge
reu elanrt: 0:: and-nueii
in England 33 per cent. This was a itted; 25,-
&nee, but still it was a fact. In London, the range
re-commitments was 47 per cent., whilst the nvs ~:,
number of committals in the more distant and leswirei
pulated places was but 16 per cent.—(Cheers) of
that the removal of criminals from the dense society_
_.
towns into the country was favourable to mo.
went principle was better than any the
rality. On the same principle,
me
they could adopt, because the convicts were reraoved:
_232_.
the contamination always to be met with in be
010
from his punishment on account of his
of society.—(Hear, hear.) A man ought to be relieved
duct,
other assis_roeta
any other system they could adopt. lie considered that
and he held that this would be more rerr°nlatocr7 than
system had not failed, but it was owing
Captain Macconochie had been badly treated to ite,
to
euri
conduct of his successor that such a rniePeor
had been . spread abroad. Let them enlY redi„po,
ber what had been said by Sir George ~, rsos
namely, that on his arrival in the island, although I'vi_ts
wholly unexpected, he found the conduct of the e°l3g_c...r,
orderly, and their demeanour respectful. Bo w
roper
I.,urVuel
Captain Macconochie was recalled, without anyty
reason, and an officer was sent out who adopted teetled,
system, and it was no wonder that the former ale ~,,,
He considered, therefore, that transportation ought t
__.
continued under a properly revised system ;
_ft
colonial appointments should be filled with Prtrai
persons, the men sent out were generally those w°'
, of the
the Government were anxious to get sent 011. - fat
country. He had never objected to a proper sahlrYno.
a competent person, but a high salary rendered then
fit for duty. No man could stand a high salary:'Bo
(Laughter.) He would recommend the Governmello
reconsider their determination, and although he eh° ia
support the Bill, he would propose several alterationS
the Committee. A ter
Mr. HAWES said that he was surprised to fie- "„r
the plan was exclusively regarded as it affected thetn°4"-ts
countries, and not with reference to the mischievous effl'e,,A
upon the colonies. There could not be a plan dells;
to destroy and dig up the resources of any colony)hi_tla
soever. The Hon. Baronet (Sir John Pakingt ha
referred to the system of transportation as being heler
ficial to New South Wales. He had also said that th.e
coi,viet should undergo the probation system in this
country. Why, that was the very proposition of the
Government. The House should not for a women'
suppose that the greatest efforts had not been made ,t 43,,
secure the strictest discipline. Let them only turn '-
the reports which had been made to the House froll/
time to time. Well, then, it they had given 15 you:,
successive
the
iveeffuervs of the whole system,tsilbysucceedingSecretaries and
ofStaitfe
sow
these had failed, were the Government to be blamed felt
endeavouring to introduce a new and well cousideir
proposition, such as in his opinion was the present. J'IL, a,.
was prepared to show his Hon. Friend the Menihern
Montrose (who was a Scotch Member) that it we"—
be more economical to adopt the principle of prison
discipline at home than the mode in operation of deporg'
ing convicts, keeping them at compulsory labour in tbS
penal settlements, and employing officers to superintene
the system there. One fact would for this purpose serval
welle o asudre
court-house
thousand.oihuesde t h
et
o
steno
etreportsinse e
voferfro from 0 tvhi
ne g Pfro not .
ta
the
e colonies
and from that again to the court-house.
gentleman intimately conversant with these Int.eol
proved that the expense of 1,200 convicts for a Perl„ai
of four years would be, if transported to the Pe%-f
settlements, 177,9001., while, taking the average cost -0
the prisoners in the penitentiary at home, the Wed,
number could be maintained for 85,0001. On the gran ,
therefore, of expense alone, he thought that a sufficierly
case was made out for a change in the system hitherto_
pursued with regard to the subject of trallSpOrtatioll. 16
was surrounded by difficulties, but, on a full consider_s-
tion of it, he considered the modification proposed hY
the
IFril.llMisihlre;P a
the Government one which would be productive of
best results, and would be less expensive to the
country and more effective for the repression of crinte:
He hoped that the House, seeing the difficulties attend
ing on the present system of transportation would
presentwith h erwagree
Majesty's
thej e st yonly
practicable Government inny
atem consideringtha t n that the
motion of Mr. NEWDEGATE, the debate
carriedthe ou t.
On
wasL adjourned.ord ~iA l t
)N asked the Noble Lord which question
would be first taken up on
pMonday?
Oedhat the Lord li t
Lord JOHN RUSSELL replied
cate had a statement to make on the Scotch Marriage
and and Registration Bills, after which the adjourned debate
would be taken.

NEWFOUNDLAND GOVERNMENT BILL.
This Bill went through Committee.
BURGH POLICE (SCOTLAND) BILL.
The report of this Bill was brought up and received.

HIGHWAY RATES BILL.
This Bill went through Committee.
STAGE CARRIAGES, &c. DUTIES BILL.

The House went into Committee on this Bill.
Colonel SIBTHORP called attention to the very
crowded state of the omnibuses in the metropolis, and
the cruel way in which the horses were treated. 00
many occasions he saw these vehicles .crowded in the
closest manner, while the horses were scarcely able to
draw the conveyances behind them, far less the greet
number of persons.
Mr. PARKER stated that provisions were in the
Bill by which the Commissioners would be
empowered to deal with the matters to which the ilob.
Member had referred.

The Bill then passed through Committee.
SOAP ALLOWANCES BILL.

This Bill passed through Committee. d of
Tne other orders ‘f* the day were then dispose.
and the House adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clocii•

LIVERPOOL, FRIDAY--The Royal Mail stead
y an
ship Cambria, Captain Judkins, sailed to-day for Bow?
Halifax, with the usual mails and a large number of Pwr-
sengers.
.'"
[ ADVERTISEMENT.]—DEBILITY AND o,
EXTRAORDINARY CASE.—CURE ST HOLLOWAY'S FILL 9.-0'KNE..r-ItS s
not
chell, of Bristol-road, Birmingham, was in that weakly staff
to be able to dress herself, besides which there was a eenstant
er free
in the right side, preventing her lying upon it. She was,.n.,,evopirita
from head-aches, appetite and digestion very bad, andf_,— so aa:
always greatly depressed. Now, this lady, ere she becafetb, beet
tremely ill, visited various watering places, where she had
et to the
medical advice, but her case baffled the skill of ill, and Lt bola'
surprise of her family and friends she is restored to pelinan`d— at Pre'
by the use of Holloway's Pills.—Sold by all druggists, an
fessor Holloway's Establishment, 244, Strand, Londol

On the 30th ult., at ClifßtoinirViriBll.as, Maida-vale, the Wife 0!
Charles Parkinson, E-q., of a daughter, still-born. t.adOo
On the 31st ult., at the Parsonage, L'ambourne
yPood
Berks, the lady of the Rev. John Bacon, of a son.
On the 31st ult., at York-crescent, Norwood, Surrey, 31rg‘
Sam Smith, of a son.
On the Ist inst., in Soho-square, Mrs. E. Foster, of a 0011.
On the Ist inst., at Tottenham, Mrs. Cox, of a son.
On the Ist inst., the lady of the Rev. Sydney Turner, ry:
sident chaplain to the Philanthropic Society, of a daughte"
who survived only a few hours.
On the 2d inst., in Torrington- square, the wife of EdWard
Willson Crosse, Esq., of a daughter.

MARRIED.
On the Ist inst., at Hove, Brighton, Henry Oakeley, Lie%
tenant, R.N., to Emily Letitia, third daughter of the lat
Colonel Trelawney, R.A.
On the 2d inst., at Hove Church, near Brighton, Fred
erici‘
Dundas, Esq., M.P., to Grace, eldest daughter of Lady Grace
and the late Sir Ralph Gore, Bart.
________---------

DIED.
On the 26th ult., at Iver, Bucks, Richard Wicks, Escl..._.„
On the 30th ult., in Dawson-street, Dublin, Sir Wilful"'
Fitzgera, Bart., of Carrigori,
wife county of Clare.
On the ld
2d inst., Selina, the of the Rev. Samuel Mg'
tin, Rector of Warsop, Notts.
On the 2d inst., at Eltham, Kent, Frederic, eldest son of
Isaac Guillemard, Esq., M.D.
lace, St. John's-wood, Ems.
On the 29th ult., at Abbey-Ems.
wife of Mr. James Boyd, aged 23.
On the 29th ult., at the Rectory, Hart-street, Mark-19.
Egerton Buckle, the infant son of the Rev. John Letts.

London: Printed and Published by REURDO YOUNG, of No'S.:7
fib
:trend, Printer, at The Sun Office, N 0.112, Strand, in the rr=
of thee Savoy, in tbo County of Middlesex. Saturday', Au"'
1847.