The Sun.
London, England, 1840-01-31 00:00:00

THE MINISTRY-ADJOLTRNED DEBATE.

On the Oder of the Day for the adjourned debate being

read,
Lord PO WERSCOURT rose and said the result of
the speeches last night must have been to convince her
Majesty's Governm-int of the truth of the old
adage, " that ;it was comparatively easy for a
man to defend himself against his enemies, but that it re-
quired supernatural aid to guard him against his friends."—
( Hear, hear, and laughter from the Opposition.) Of all
the speeches which had been delivered upon this debate
none were more calculated to injure the Government than
the two principal speeches on their side of the [louse—the
speeches of the Noble Lord (Howick) and of the Right
Honourable Gentleman the new Secretary at War
(Mr. Macaulay). If the Noble Lord were in
his place, he (Lord P.) would congratulate him upo-. the
open and the manly manner in which he had avowed his
reasons for resigning his post in the Government—rea-
sons, not from any personal motive, or from disappointed
ambition, but on strong public grounds—( Hear, hear)—
and he might congratulate gentlemen opposite on the sup-
port of the Noble Lord, coupled, as it had been, with a
speech which must inevitably injure them most deeply.
With ref.Taed to the other speech to which he alluded, and
to whici he would but briefly refer, he must say that it
ta; a new thing and, in his opinion, a most unpopular
thing, for aMember of the Cabinet to come down to that
House, and boldly and openly declare that he upheld and
admired that system of agitation to which the country
owed all the evils it was now labouring under_ —( Tory
cheers.) He thought it was a new thing, and altogether
an unprecedented thing for a Cabinet Minister to come
(lowa to the House and speak in terms of disparagement
of the high and honourable office of a Privy Councillor,
:a terms which expressed that that high and honourable
office was merely an empty name, and a nominal title of
distinction.--( Cheers.) It appeared to him to be a new
and anomalous thing fur a Cabinet Minister to rise in his
place in Parliament ostensibly for the purpose of answering
a number of serious charges brought against the Adminis-
tration of which he was a Member,bythe Right Hon. Baronet

the Member for Pembroke, and instead of alluding in the
most distant manner—( Renewed cheering)—to any one ,1
of these charges, to fly off and talk about the Reforms-
tion—about some nondescript animal, half Roundhead,
half Cavalier—about the times of Milton and Raleigh, and
fifty other things, which had no more to do with the matter
in hand than if he had talked of the sudden death of
King Rufus, and entertained the House with a
panegyric upon his heroic deeds.—( Cries of " Hear.")
He ( Lord!Powerscourt) thought the speech, evidently well
digested—(Cheers from the Opposition)—concluded in
a very odd and peculiar manner. If he saw any resem-
blance to any hero, it was the ancient Roman, who, as long
as hef ound hostile weapcns against him, defended himself
with great bravery, but when he found a mortal
blow had been infbcted by a friend, breathed out those
memorable words, "et to Brute !" He trusted Hon.
Gentlemen opposite would take example from that noble
Roman. He (Lord Powerscourt) rejoiced at the oppor-
tunity of expressing his cordial support of the motion of
his Hon. Friend the Member for Devonshire. It was a
motion which he was convinced, whatever might be its fate,
would meet with the approbation of all thinking classes.
He believed he spoke the sentiments of the great consti•
tuency that he represented when he stated that the present
state of the country required a strong Government—a
Government which would unite men of education, and
the best wishes of both Houses of Parliament—a Govern-
ment composed of men, who, by their talent, character,
and influence would be enabled to carry on the affairs of
the Government with success. The present course of af-
fairs, as he had before said, required a strong Government,
and when he came down to that House, at the commence-
ment of the debate, he confessed that he thought no indi-
vidual on the other side of the House would have had the
hardihood to assert that the present Government was en-
titled to that designation. He was satisfied that a weaker
or a more inefficient Government never presided over
the destinies of a great nation than the present.
It could not be denied that the voluntary principle was the

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to carry their views. He knew there were yet some
of their supporters who declared an adhesion
to the Protestant establishments of the country,
but that adhesion was given in such a manner, so sleepy
were they in their support, that they were more calculated
to paralyse their energies than to advance the sacred
cause, which they declared their anxiety to struggle
for; with regard to the Church, he could not help advert-
ing to the policy which the Government had pursued ;
he thought every effort they made to what they called sub-
mission was nothing more or less than a surrender of those
sacred rights to the enemies of the Church. He knew full
well that the large and thinking portion of the people out-
side that House would not suffer a continuance of
such a Government ; there was also a numerous
and highly respectable party in that House, who Nvere
perfectly free from any kind of bigotry and prejudice ;
these, backed by the stronger body outside of these walls,
would form a phalanx so powerful that it would be im-
possible for the Ministers to retain their places.-7( Hear. )
He was ready to admit that they carefully abstained from
all outward expressions of dislike to the Church, but they
also abstained from all expressions in its favour, and
did not hesitate to give the party to which he had al-
luded all the increased weight of their expressive silence ;
because if they expressed openly their adhesion to that
Church, they would run the risk of offending that party
by which they were supported, and if they would insert
the word Protestant into any of their state do.
cuments they would offend the ears of that nu-
merous body who, if they were sincere disciples of the
religion which they professed, must ardently desire the abo-
lition of Protestantism.—( Hear, hear.) The voice of
public opinion called for men to assume the reins of Go-
vernment who would not be ashamed to announce their
principles of religion, who would truckle not to
any party, but who would manfully assert in a
straight-forward manner the principles of their policy—.a
party whs would stand not upon the breath of Court
favour alone—not upon party claims alone—but would
rest their claims to the public confidence on their sound
opinions and principles. This was the policy which they
had pursued with regard to the Church which they
were afraid to attack, but he considered their conduct
in State affairs was even still more culpable. Under the
names of forbearance and generosity they had displayed a
despicable and culpable weakness.—( Hear, hear.) He
would not allude, except in passing to the speech of the
Noble Lord at Liverpool, or to that of the Attorney-General
at Edinburgh, which had been so ably commented upon last
night. He should allude to those subjects if they had not al-
ready been alluded to lay Hon. Gentlemen on his side of the
House. He should say, however, that it was unworthy
and undignified on the part of Minister a of the Crown to go

in imitation of an Hon. Gentleman opposite, on an agitating
tour through the country.—( Hear.) There was one part
of the speech of the Noble Lord which he would allude to
—that was, his boast of a paltry economy in the secret ser-
vice money. He wondered whether the Noble Lord,
when he made that boast, contemplated his coming
to the House with the extravagant demand with
which he came down a few nights ago? he wondered
whether it ever struck him, when he boasted of that
paltry economy, that a judicious expenditure of that money
might have saved the lives of many of those who fell at
Newport, by obtaining for him a timely notice of the danger
which was intended. There was another matter to which
he should refer, and he begged leave to say, though
Honourable Members opposite might laugh at it,
it was a matter of great importance. The Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland had gone over to that
country with the express intention of playing a game of
conciliation. He had hoped to find a temporary cessation
of party rancour, and yet, after having received while over
there the most generous support from political opponents,
he had turned round on the principles on which he
should have acted.—( Hear, hear.) He invited to his
table the man most opposed to the principles on which he
had himself professed to act. He invited that man who,
a few weeks before that compliment from the repre-
sentative of the Queen had, not in one or two speeches,
but almost every day of his life, assailed with
the most unfounded and unjustifiable abuse and in the most
unwarrantable manner,not only all that was good and virtuous
in the land, but the most sacred institutions of the country.
These •things might be called trifles; he could not tell
whether they were or not, but he held them as demonstra-
tions of principles on the part of her Majesty's Ministers.
—( Hear.) But he asked what was the reason for this
display of fellow feeling and approbation on the part of
Lord Ebrington ? It was that the Learned Gentleman, by
means which his own conscience must justify, had attained
a power in the State hitherto unenjoyed by any other, so
extensive as to be most dangerous to the State, and which
so far from receiving favour from any Government deserved
the contrary, and ought to have been most seriously and
steadily discountenanced. He was not about to state the
position of that Learned Gentleman in the House, but
none could doubt it was a very great one. He could look
before him and around him, and see every where men of the
greatest wealth,the highest talent—aye,even of ancient rank
who held their stations in the House at his sovereign will.
—( Hear.) He might turn on one side of him and see the
Honourable Gentleman, once the independent Member for
the county of Middlesex—the bugbear of the Treasury
benches—the festering thorn in the side of each succeed-
ing Chancellor of the Exchequer, and once the head of
a respectable party in the House, reduced to the necessity
of receiving rank among his satellites.—( Hear, hear.)
No doubt, too, the Learned Gentleman might reflect that
there were many in that House whose names, by the force
of his influence, would go down to posterity, the candi-
dates for fame, in having supported a Government which,
but for his upholding hand, must with them have moul-
dered into dust.—( Hear.) It could not be denied that this
was a proud position. But was this a power that should
receive homage from any Government ?—a power which
nearly approached to the absolutism of the imperial sway
—( A laugh)—a power which exceeded, nay almost
superseded the authority of the Crowa in one important
and integral part of the empire.—( Hear, hear.) Was it
to be borne that the Learned Member should have sixty seats
in that House so entirely at his disposal as to be able to
send these persons:utterly unknown till they arrived there ?
And, indeed, if the boast of a priest at an election for
the county of Meath were to be relied upon, he could as
easily return cabbage stocks to that House.—( Laughter. )
Power such as that must be fatal to the peace of the em-
pire in the hands of any individual, but in the hands of one
who was continually raving at all our best institutions—
who was the sworn foe of the Protestant Church in Ire-

land—( Hear, hear)—who bad agitated, and who
again threatened, the agitation of the repeal of the
Union, which would be the dismemberment of the em-
pire—( Hear, hear)—a man who lost no opportunity of
attacking private character—( Hear, hear)—who to-day
praised the man to the skies, whom to-morrow he loaded
with execrations—in the hands of such a man this power
roust be so dangerous that it should be the object of
every Government that wished to maintain order and
peace, and to uphold the dignity of the laws—to
discountenance and discourage, instead of giving it the
apparent sanction of their exalted station. He was not
now about to dilate upon any of the other important topics
on which, in his opinion, the present Government was
open to censure. He had already trespassed too
long upon the time of the Housa, but he could
not sit down without alluding to some of the
difficulties of the position in which they were placed.--
(Hear.) They bad, in the first place, an extensive Chartist
conspiracy breaking out all over the kingdom ; they had, in
the second place, a Ribbon conspiracy, of an extensively
organised nature, proved to exist in Ireland; and they had
also a system of agitation kept alive in that country, which,
like the effect of unwholesome excitement upon the hu-
man frame, tended to nothing but exhaustion and decay.
Such, in fact, was their condition, that a state of discontent

was a state of comparative tranquillity. Some were
discontented only, while some were in an utter
state of disorganization which could only be subdued by
force. If they looked abroad they saw that empire which
had been the scene of a late military triumph in an equally
precarious state. That was composed of a number of
petty States, partly independent of each other, and
only waiting the assistance of some foreign Power
tike a string of beads when the string was cut.—( Hear,
hear.) They had a war in the east, and an eminent State
exposed at their own doors, liable to be disturbed by
the introduction of the Russian sword or the French
bayonet into the scales of their adversary. They
had what was more than all, a declining financial
system at home, and to crown the whole, it was ridiculous
to deny it, they had a Government which could not pass a
single measure through Parliament except upon sufference
—a Government distinguished by no peculiar talent, or
remarkable ability—unillumined by one ray of genius,
unsupported by the common attributes of straight-
forward and dogged and plodding industry.—( Hear.)
Their efforts were directed not to stem the torrent, but to
keep their heads above the surface, and float listlessly on
the troubled waters. Their last resource was in the per-
sonal favour of the Sovereign, who was so inexpe-
rienced in State affairs, that she was altogether
incapable of seeing or knowing the impending danger.—
(Hear, hear.) They had, however, the pleasure of seeing,
whatever might be the fate of the motion, a limping majo-
rity, dwindling from day to day, supported by a specious
system of open questions and uncertain evasions. He said,
then that the fate of the Ministers was sealed.

Mr. FOX MAULE then rose and said, that as the
Noble Lord had come to the House for the purpose of

accusing his Hon. Friend of delivering what he termed
an essay, he had expected to hear an extemporaneous reply
to what had fallen during that debate. He could not but
remark that many points of the Noble Lord were directed
to an individual whom he expected to tee sitting in
his place, but who unfortunately was absent.—(Hear. )
In what he had to state to the House on this question he
must claim their indulgence, because the task would be to
enter into mere matter of detail, and not to dwell upon
subjects that were more entertaining to the House. The
Noble Lord bad attacked his Right Hon. Friend for stating
in his place in that House as a Minister of the Crown
his opinion on the subject of agitation. He could not think
that the Noble Lord had read his Right Honourable
Friend's speech carefully, for if he had he would have
yen that the views taken by him upon the subject
of agitation, were not entitled to be described as the
advice, on the part of a Minister of the Crown to
the people, to continue agitation, in his acceptance
of the term. The Noble Lord had made remarks on the
office of Privy Councillor—that was a most delicate sub-
ject, sitting, as he did, near the Right Hon. Baronet who
last night spoke upon that question. The description
given by his Right Hon. Friend of the office of Privy
Councillor was by many degrees worse than the remarks
made upon that subject by the Right Honourable Baronet.
With regard to the opinions of the public as to the con-
duct of the present Ministry, the Noble Lord had stated
his own abstract opinions alone. That remained
to be decided by the public out of doors, to which
he, with the Noble Lord, was ready to defer.
The Nobled Lord then attacked the Government as ene-
mies to the Church, yet he could not produce one single
measure which the Government had ever introduced which
tended to injure that Church ; no, but they could produce
many measures passed by that House by her Majesty's pre-
sent Government on the subject of the Church, every one of
which tended to confirm and strengthen the principle on
which it was founded in the hearts of the people. The other

topic which the Noble Lord had alluded to was the omis-
sion of the word Protestant. He (Mr. F. M.) would
leave that to be decided between the Noble Lord and the

Right Hon. Leader of his party. The question was mooted
on the first night of the Session by the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet the Member for the University of Oxford,
and although the leader of the party opposite addressed
the House, he never once alluded to that point ; and
although the leader of the party, in another place, had
introduced the word into the Address, whether it was that
they were afraid of a majority against them, or whether it
was that they were afraid of making an unfavourable
opinion out of doors—they did not venture even to suggest
the amendment in that House.—( Oh, oh.) The Noble
Lord then alluded to the speech of the Noble Lord the
Secretary for the Colonies, and alluding to some speeches
of his made at Liverpool, he charged him with being there
upon a tour of agitation. Was a Secretary of State to be
debarred from visiting one of the greatest commercial capitals
in the kingdom—not in his public capacity, hut as a private
character, without being charged with being on a tour of
agitation? Was it to be said that a Minister of the Crown
was to be debarred from hearing with his own cars, and
seeing with his own eyes the statement of that country, the
internal affairs of which it was his duty to control ?
All the rest of the Noble Lord's speech had referred to
the affairs of Ireland. The di iner-table of the Lord
Lieutenant had been again served up—(Hear, hear, and
laughter)—and various other matters had been mentioned
in connection with Ireland ; but he should leave these
matters to bo discussed by other Honourable Mem-
bers more immediately connected with that country.
—( Hear.) The principal reason of his rising was
to make some remarks which he thought called for by
what had fallen from the Gentlemen opposite, with regard
to the internal policy pursued by her Majesty's Govern-
ment in this country. The first point of attack on that
subject against his Noble Friend had been the appoint-
ment of Magistrates under the Municipal Corporations
Bill, and to that point he should first address
himself. They perfectly well knew that when the English
Municipal Corporation Bill was first introduced into that
! House it contained a clause in which the opinions of the
Noble Lord were openly and boldly stated, that it was
proper to give to the Members of the Town Council power
of recommending to the Crown tile persons who should
be appointed to fill the offices of Magistrates of those Bo-
roughs. That clause was struck out, and eventually the
Bill was passed without it. But did not his Noble Friend
state to the Elouse that he should still continue to act on
that principle ?—( Hear, from the Opposition.) Did not
his Noble Friend say so? All he asked waa an answer in
the affirmative ; •and since it was admitted that the Noble
Lord had said so, he should have to say no more about it.
But after the passing of the Municipal Corporation Bill

it became necessary to appoint Magistrates for these
various towns. They had heard much of the
manner in which the Noble Lord had betrayed the
trust which the Crown had reposed in him—it was
easy, however, to deal in generalities but it was not
so easy sometimes to lay one's finger on particular in-
stances of abuse. Such had been the case on the pre-
sent occasion. The house was not perhaps aware of the
number of Magistrates appointed after the passing of the
Municipal Bill by the Noble Lord. That number amounted
to 1,000, and out of that 1,000 appointed to administer
justice in the different municipal towns of the coune
try, not one single complaint had even been
made in the House save the two which had
been alluded to in the course of the debate.
The first regarded an unhappy man now under sen-
tence of death—the next was that of the brother
of the Member for Birmiogham. With both of
those cases he mild now proceed to deal. Out of
the number of Magistrates appointed, none he should
observe had been removed for misconduct, save the un-
fortunate individual to whom he had referred :
and out of the entire number, twenty-three only
had resigned their Commissions, and those 23 had done
so for the most part, because they found that their
duties as Magistrates interfered with their business.
( Hear, hear.) He thought that if it had been proved,
or if the fact had been true that his Noble Friend
had not paid proper attention to the appointment of
persons who were to administerjustice on those legal benches
in a way which the people could confide in, and from which
they might derive a proper and fair administration of the law,
there were enemies enough of Government in the House to
whom complaints would have found their way, and he was
convinced that no topic could be more satisfactory to
them. He was, therefore, justified in saying, that
it was easy to make general complaints without
affording any details to justify them. With respect to the
case of Frost, he bad this to say that on the appointment of
that individual his Noble Friend was influenced by the
opinion of the Town Council, and of respectable indivi-
duals to whom that person must have been known.
That was the fact, which he thought showed that hi s
Noble Friend had pursued a liberal and proper course,
calculated to excite, on the part of the people living in
those municipal towns, a greater respect for the law, be-
cause that law was administered by persons whose impar-
tiality was undoubted. When those appointments took
place, a recommendation came from the town of Newport
containing the names of two gentlemen, Mr. Brewer and
Mr. Frost. His Noble Friend received shortly after a
statement in objection to Mr. Frost's appointmtment,
and consulted those in whom he placed dependence and
the Lord Lieutenant of the county, with respect
to their opinion, whether Mr. Frost might or might not,
with propriety, be made a Magistrate ; the answer was there
was no reason why such should not be the case, and
consequently on such authority his Noble Friend appointed
the two gentlemen recommended by the Council, the one
being Mr. Bre wer,a strong political opponent of her Majesty's
I Government—and the other, Mr. Frost, of whom,
notwithstanding the insinuations to the contrary, he must
say that so long as he performed the office no instance ap-
peared of his having shown partiality to any person, or
having acted in any manner contrary to justice. But
Mr. Frost betook himself to other courses, and mixed
himself up with political meetings of the Chartists,
where violent speeches were made by himself
and others.—( Hear, hear.) As soon as this came to
the ears of the Government, it at once appeared to render
Mr. Frost unworthy, if guilty of such charges, of retaining
her Majesty's commission. It might be objected to h's
Noble Friend that be did not dismiss Mr. Frost on the
first intimation of this. That might be the justice of
Honourable Gentlemen opposite; but it was the practice
of his Noble Friend on such occasions, to make inquiry,
and give the parties an opportunity of being heard be-
fore they were condemned ; such an opportunity was given
to Mr. Frost on the 16th January, 1839, and as he did not
answer that inquiry satisfactorily, he was in con-
sequence removed from the Commission of the Peace.
This was the plain, the simple statement with regard to
that unhappy man, so far as respected his appointment to,
and his sdismissal from, the Magistracy. To come now to
the case of Mr. Muntz. The Right Hon. Baronet, the
Member for Pembroke, after proposing passing over the
case of Mr. Frost—(Hear, hear)--had last night said,
that with regard to Mr. Munta no apology had been made.
Now it was not his (Mr. F. Maule's) intention to offer
any apology for that appointment, not only as originally
made, but as having since been shown to have been one of
the best appointments ever made in Birmingham. He
had inquired into the statements of the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet. The Right lion Baronet had first stated that Mr.
Muntz was, or had been, a Delegate to the National Con
vention. So he had been. But he had ben elected a De-
legate without his consent, and though the Right Hens
Baronet sneered at that, he (Mr. F. Maule) repeated hat
Mr. Muntz had been elected a Delegate without his con-
sent, that he had never once attended, and that he had
withdrawn his name.—( Hear, hear.)Then the Right Hoe.
Baronet said that Mr. Muntz was treasurer to the Chartist
Fund.—( Sir James Graham, " Trustee.") That was in
the abstract true, but not in the sequence. Mr. Muntz
and his brother the Member for Birmingham, had been ap-
pointed trustees for the fund, and 6001. had been lodged in
Grote, Prescott, and Co.'s Bank, in their names. But the
first step they had taken was to write a check, transferring
the money to some other person, refusing to be the trustees
for any such fund.—( Hear, hear.) But then it was said
that Mr. Mentz had been Vice-President of the National
Political Union. So he had been, and was so when he
was made a Magistrate. But was that an objection to
the Right Hon. Baronet? If it were, why had he not
urged it when, as ae Member of Lord Grey's Government,
he had been a party to the appointment of Mr. Attwood as
President of the Union.—( Hear, hear.) And if the Right
Hon. Baronet said he knew not of it, it proved that he
had not been so acuto in observing his own Government
measures, as those of the present.—(Hear, hear.) He
(Mr. Fox !Mule) would go ou farther, and show that the
appointment of Mr. Muntz, so far from deserving reflection
upon the Government was a credit to it. Did Honourable
Members opposite know anything about Air. Muntz?
—( Hear.) Did they know that he was one of the
best educated men in Birmingham—that he was one who
had derived extensive information from his travels abroad
—that Mr. Muntz was a most accomplished scholar—that
he was deeply interested in the trade of Birmingham, where
he employed a great many hands, and that he was a most
active Magistrate. He ( Mr. Fox Maule) had that morn-
ing met a Commissioner of Police from Birmingham. He
had inquired of him as to what was the conduct of Mr.
Muntz. The reply was most satisfactory in all respects,
for that gentleman had stated that there was no Magistrate
in Birmingham from whom the town had received greater
assistance. He ( Mr. Fox Maule) bad one point more to
ask—had Mr. Muntz ingratiated himself with the Chartists
by his becoming a Magistrate ? What were the attacks
made upon that Gentleman a few days ago ? So far from
that appointment making him a favourite with the Chartists
two of the leaders of the party had voted against him, and
in favotr: of Sir Charles Wetherell; and gentlemen of the
Council Board, with whom he formerly acted, voted against
Mr. Muntz and in favour of Sir Charles Wetherell. He
did not know whether this explanation was satisfactory to
the Gentlemen opposite, but he thought he had satisfacto-
rily proved the competency of that gentleman to hold the
Commission of the Peace. Those were the only two cases
as regards the appointments made by her Majesty's Go-
vernment, to which objection had been made. He would
not now pursue this point further; but whenever any Geri-
tleman would bring forward a distinct motion on the sub-
ject he would be able to convince that House and the
country that the appointments to the Magistracy made by
the present Government had proved of essential service in
the conservation of the peace, and were a credit to the
Ministry by whom they had been made.—( Hear, hear.)
Having disposed of the two questions he now came to the
great quession of the existence of Chartism. Chartism
had been imputed by buth sides to each other. He (Mr.
I'. Maule) begged to say that the other side were not in-
deed altogether connected with the consequences of its
promulgation. He had found out that it received its public
birth in 1837, at a meeting held by the Working Men's
Association at the Crown and Anchor, to pass resolutions
for Universal Suffrage. He then found that in August
1838 the Charter was adopted in Birmingham, and it was
in the end of September in that year that several speeches
were made in which insurrectionary opinions were used,
and seditious expressions thrown out. Now on looking
to what had passed between the Home Department and
the country upon the subject, he found no intimation of
any alarm existing in the country on the subject of Chartism
till November 1838, and the Government had been ac-
cused of neglecting information then and since offered,
and by inertness and inability encouraging the
growth of that which, in common with every Member of
that House, lie deeply regretted—of encouraging the
growth of Chartism. In November, 1838, intimation
was given at the Home Office of the disturbances in the
North, and in answer to those communications the Secre-
tary of State for the Colonies called upon the Magistrates
to act with proper prudence and care, and offered them
whatever aid they chose. In December, 1838, the Go-
vernment thought it right to call upon the Magistrates
to unite in putting down those dangerous meetings. In
that year the Government issued a proclamation against
the torch light meetings, and he then wished to remark,
that Chartism was not exactly the object that could be
solely attributed to those meetings, but he thought
they had a closer connection with the revision
of the Poor-laws.—( Hear, hear.) He must say that the
first time he recollected language of an inflammatory de-
scription, and such as was foreign to British tongues,
—(which he hoped would also continue so,) was made
use of by Mr. Oastler, who threatened with " fire and the
dagger," in his agitation against the laws of the country.
—( Hear, hear.) And this occurred long before the agi-
tation on the subject of Chartism commenced. In 1837
the whole of the northern districts of the country was in-
darned by a spirit which was completely placed in op.
position to the authorities of the country. He was bound
to say that they did not avail themselves of the popular
cry of 1837, to strengthen their position in the country,
which otherwise they could have done.—( Hear, hear.)
After 1837, this language about the Poor-law still con-
tinued to exist, and the moment the Charter came to
be agitated, that instant opposition to the Poor-laws, and
support of the Charter became in the hands of
Oastler, Stephen, and Co., one common cause,
and has been so ever since.—( Hear. ) What had
the Government done since that ? Wh3, in December
1838 they issued a proclamation calling upon all good sub-
jects of the Queen to oppose such measures. In Decem-
ber 1838 Government had also added considerably in the
disturbed districts of the North to the military force there,
for the preservation of the public peace. They had done
so as far as they could, and if they had not attempted to
insure order they would not have been entitled to the con-
fidence o the country. In January, 1839, the first intel-
ligence of arming on the part of the Chartists was re-
ceived at the Home Department. In February and March
organised meetings were reported to have taken place at
Birmingham, and a large body of men were said to have
been in arms there. The same report continued to be re-
ceived for some time, but during the whole of that period
constant additions had been made, in order to protect the
public peace, and continual vigilance was exercised over
those seditious meetings, which were held in that district.
Could any further proof be wanted that Government was
ca-eful ir. watching over those proceedings ? He wished

EVENING EDITION.

to show Hon. Gentlemen opposite the course the law had
taken, in 1839, on the subject. If he could show the House
and the country, that without the parade of coming down
for any extraordinary powers of the law—without extend-
ing alarm to other districts—criminals who had attempted
to spread sedition through the land, and to disseminate
treasonable doctrines through the country, had been not
only brought before the legal tribunals, but had in many
instances been convicted, and were now undergoing
their sentences—if he could show this, he thought he
would go far in refuting the charge against Government of
having neglected the public tranquillity. In 1839 there
had been twenty-three individuals tried in the county of
Chester for various acts under the laws of sedition. Of
these five had been found guilty, fifteen had been dis-
charged on their own sureties, and two had been imprisoned
for a year, making out of twenty-three eases twenty-two
convictions. In Cumberland there had been two parties
tried, one of whom had been imprisoned for six months,
and the other was fined and discharged. In Monmouth
there had been 88 convictions, in Montgomery 43, in
Northumberland 5, in Nottingham 12, in Wilts 11, in
Worcester 9, and altogether the numbers amounted to
290 ; and he might add, that at the present moment the
leaders of Chartism, Macg,uire, Stephens, Vincent, Ed-
wards, Lovett, and others, were in prison, while prosecu-
tions were pending against Feargus O'Connor and Mr.
Taylor. These proceedings proved that the Government
had not been indifferent, though they had not been osten-
tatious. He thought when these facts were laid before the
public, they would see that, instead of coming down to the
House for extraordinary powers, but relying on the law
itself, and on the good feelings of the juries, and on the
justice of the cause, her Majesty's Government did not
only not neglect their duty, but maintained in that manner
in which it ought to be maintained, public peace and
tranquillity.—( Hear, hear.) That they had not been able
to extinguish Chartism he freely admitted, but they had
guarded themselves against it. Where Magistrates had
desired assistance it had been furnished them—whenever
any portion of the country had expressed alarm, protection
had been given to them—( Hear, hear)—either by the
military being stationed there, or some arrangement
made by which their assistance could be conveyed
in a short time, He would now draw attention
to the number of convictions obtained by Government from
the juries on whose loyalty and integrity they had relied. He
would look back to a different time, and compare what was
done by a Tory Government in 1817. Oa comparing
the state of the country now to what it then was, it gave
him some satisfaction to think they were not in so danger-
ous a state now as then. He trusted that the returning
good sense of the labouring classes, and their seeing the
punishment that had fallen upon those who had violated
the law, would enable them to say they were not likely to
have a recurrence of such events again. The Govern-
ment of that day came down to the House for extraordi-
nary power, and obtained the Act 19, chap. 57, Geo. 111.
which, under pretence of preventing seditious meetings,
was passed for the purpose of preventing public discussion
altogether.—( Hear, hear,) They applied for the most
extraordinary power the House had ever given ; for the sus-
pension of the Habeas Corpus Act, a most extraordinary and
unnecessary stretch of power by the Government; but what
he wished to show was, that with these extraordinary
powers the Government rather defeated than advanced its
own object, alarmed the country, shook all confidence in
the State, and had shown that most undesirable spectacle
of bringing a number of State prisoners to trial without
means, whether from the weakness of the charge or other-
wise, of obtaining convictions. He alluded more particu-
larly to the trials at York in 1817—of twenty-four persons
against whom the Government Solicitor instituted prosecu-
tions ten were found not guilty, against eleven others
no bills were found, and one was liberated
on bail, leaving only two who were detained,
without trial, by the Secretary of State's warrant, under
suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act.—( Hear, hear.)
Now, when he contrasted these proceedings with the con-
victions which had been obtained now, of 232 out of 290
prosecutions, he could not but come to the conclusion that
it was better to rely on the authority of the law than to
resort to extraordinary power, and at the same time not to
risk the trial of the culprits at the bar of justice without
some satisfactory conclusion, that the prosecutions would
be attended with success, ani that the culpri a would not
be dismissed in triumph from the bar.—( Hear, hear.)
It was impossible not to look at t'ie transac-
tions in' 1837, without seeing that tho mod, in which
the Government proceeded against those guilty of sedi-
tion, was by subornation of perjury. When be looked on
the Parliamentary history of that year, and found recorded
there charges against the Government of a far more cul-
pable nature than any now made, that not content to rely
upon the law to convict those guilty of sed tion, they em-
ployed men to go as spies amongst those misguided indi-
viduals, to associate themselves with them, and then betray
them into the hands of Government—( Hear, hear)—it
was no charge against the present Government that they
had recourse to such men as Oliver, Reynold, and Castles,
that they tampered with those unhappy individuals, and
obtained convictions against them by means which could not
be too severely deprecated. He could not better describe
those proceedings than in the words of Lord Miltown, on
Mr. Thackeray's motion, respecting spies and informers,
wino said, " by whom was the hope of receiving assistance
in the disaffected districts of London held out ? by whom
was the connection between disaffected persons in the
country and in London kept up ? By a person sent down .
to the country by the Secretary of State—by an individual
who assumed a character, and on whose appearance the
disaffected manufacturing counties, when they knew he
was in the neighbourhood, rested for support. He could
not help knowing that much mischief resulted from the
conduct of that individual—that person's appearance was
even made the forerunner of confusion and disorder. He
much wished the House to attend to one striking circum-
stance. It appeared in some parts of the county of Not-
tingham a groat outcry was raised against Oliver, the spy,
in consequence of which he refrained from going there ;
and what was the consequence ? No rising ever took
place in Nottingham, while from every other part visited by
him victims were obtained for the scaffold." They had
employed such means as these, He had a right to go
back to Tory times, and the only Tory time he found bear-
ing comparison with the present was that of 1817, 1818,
and 1819, when they not only came down to the House
for extraordinary powers, and employed spies to ob-
tain convictions, but moved for a secret and ex-parte Com-
mittee, where the case of the people was never heard, and
on which this remarkable observation was made :—" From
this Committee the people were shut out ; the case of the
Crown was heard, but the case of the people was never
heard ; the people of England were visited by one of the
greatest plagues with which a people ever could have
been visited; the Government, which ought to protect
them, sent persons among them to stir them up to acts of
violence." Such was the parallel between the Govern-
ments of 1817 and 1839. But be came now to another
part of the case—a Noble Lord not in his place, did not state
that, towards the end of the last Session, a Bill was introduced
to enable the counties to establish a constabulary force ;
and had he seen that Noble Lord, he would ask bow it
came that a Magistrate of Monmouth, when it was pro-
posed its the county of Monmouth to adopt that Act, was
among the first to repudiate it, and found among the ma-
jority who voted against it?—( Hear, from the Opposition
benches ) Hon. Gentlemen cheered, was it agreeable to
their feelings to charge a Government for not giving pro-
tection, when they would not avail themselves of the pro-
tection given? He thought on the subject of Chartism be
had shown the House fairly the conduct of the present
Government. He had shown them to be in active corre-
spondence with the disturbed districts since 1835, and
had given advice to all who had asked for it. He
had shown, also, that they had not neglected the
power which the law vested in them ; but, on
the contrary, had carried nearly three hundred cases
before juries, in 230 of which they had obtained convic-
tions. He was willing to rest the voie of confidence or no con-
fidence, so far as this concerned the question between the
House and the people of England, on the statements made,
and on the papers he was able to produce.—( Hear, hear.)
He should proceed shortly to make one or two re-
marks on the speech which fell from the Right lion.
Gentleman opposite in the course of last evening. At the
commencement he was very complimentary to his Noble
Friend, the Member for Northumberland, and advised
him to cross the House, and join his party. The Right
Hon. Gentleman reminded him of a certain animal who
had lost its tail, and wished all the other animals to cut
off their tails also.—( Hear, hear.) But were his
Noble Friend now in his place, he should venture to
tell him to pause before he accepted such ad-
vice, and to advise him not to cross the House on
the light Hon. Gentleman's suggestion, but rather to
avoid a political Will-o'-the-Wisp of that description
which would lead him through bogs and quagmires until
his reputation for consistency stood upon as unsound a
basis as that of some other persons.—(Hear, hear.) He
would rather advise him to regard the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman as a warning beacon erected on the sands, on
which political consistency had been miserably wrecked.
—(Hear, hear.) He said that if the Noble Lord would
cross the House he should find him willing to enter upon
a proper settlement and a progressive reform ; he thought
without the Noble Lord's crossing to the other side, or
thebofe
pa
rbßoi
goi grtehost
progressive
ievset
ther Hon.c f
opramr
tparty Gentleman
aonpdp opposite
tcs
orzoftwis
sshhfi
abolitionaeni
setgh t
oe
rtr
yo
theythat,
w e hr were friends
arrangement would
o f
the question of registration.—(Hear, hspe aeoref.c)ht
what he
hGentlemanminottihone cfoorurtshee
t ion of Members sitting in that House, was pleased
ear;gurloh(ihlsstueoueelidafa,ntilfwno Right
eati
as
inferior
wouldrct
with-
out nearlymiosp neur anott r
sending
rlieoeenet
cignhhdaut
hear
tat
requiring
nhpnedritegteerc
gas hadboaewreunin.
fytiotdyharg,i
representatives lived
recollect,vahaoeniewsiand in
npocoirfanni
proceeded
inference)—
epeehnerry
ie,duepr
tion to make of those words, he (Mr. F. Maule) was will-
ing:dee bhrdecoeoacnpfrd:ci
further,
rseietrh,hosi:e,entrTt
hadN
iihhnui
afadedt
That Scotland,
aboisbniento'sy words,expi a n
mea-
sures that passed through the House, to what any other
part of the empire had."—( Hear, hear.) He must eel
he thought a greater insult had never been conferred on
the representatives of the people. He contested he little
thought to have heard the Right Hon. Gentleman, wheal
he had seen riding from Netherby gate through banks and
braes, for the purpose of panegyrizing the Scottish charac-
ter, and congratulating them—
On victories won in border raids
O'er his own clan in former slays,
come down to the House and state that the representative;
of that people, from the want of qualification, were infe-
rior to Members returned for any other place. He might
rely on it that more anger could not be raised against him
than would be by his speech last evening. He wished be
saw the Right Hon. Member for Stamford in the House,
who cheered the remark of the Right Hon. Gentleman'
and who was formerly the Member for the metropolitan
county of Scotland, and by so doing made himself a party
to it. Was it possible that he could forget all that ""
owed to the county of Edinburgh, or did there remain in
his mind the chagrin of his defeat--
. Menet alta in mente repositum judicium paradist
Spraataqum irijuria forma,"
that he indulged in general remarks so insulting to the
county ; that was the only inference, and he took upon,bill'il
self, in the name of the Members for Scotland, at
events on that side of the House, to give it the most post
five contradiction he could giv.. it in Parbarnen"
tary terms. He also wished to relieve the depart