The Sun.
London, England, 1823-05-16 00:00:00

:Ministers, on dis subject, rntidebimieel !Ibis 'duty to ad-dress'
the House thus early, for the purpose of stating without re-
serve, as without hesitation, the opinions entertained by him-
self and his colleagues with respect to this most important, and
at the same time he must say it, notwithstanding the rebuke of
the lion. Gentleman, most fearful question.—(llear, hear !)
He had never come to a discussion on any question under feel-
ings of such great difficulty, not as to the principle on which
his decision would he formed, nor as to the practical resolution
to which it would be expedient-to come, but from a conscious-
ness of the danger which, notwithstanding all that had been
advanced by the Hon. Gentleman, he must declare attended this
discussion, in which one rash word, one ardent expression might:
raise a flame that it would be no easy task to allay.—(Hear,
shear!)--He stated this not for the purpose of attaching; any
blame to the Hon. Gentleman or to those who concurcewith
him, nor did he say it with a view of discouraging fair and free
deliberation on this subject, but as a caution to those who, in
a more advanced stage of the debate, and in the conflict of
opinion, might be disposed to colour too highly that picture
which the Hon. Gentleman had sketched' with no light hand,
and who might pursue a practical goo6l with unnecessary hazard.
*This the Hon. Gentleman appeared to him to have done, for
what had the latter hart of the Hon. Gentleman's speech to do
with the practical purpose which he had avowed ? What had
past delinquences to do with his present object. and why was
he to bring forward occurrences in the West Indies which, if
,they had not been remedied before, could not be thus corrected.
Why recall the cruelties formerly brought under their consi-
iteration ; and why, when the question was totally new, did
'the Hon. Gentleman couple it with another, with which, if it
had been at dll connected with the present one, had never, for
the last 30 years, been placed in the juxta position in which he
(Mr. Canning), taking; the part he thought it his duty to take,
had placed it, but for the sake of contrast, to declare that voting
for the abolition of the SiaveTrade, they disclaimed all intention
of abolishing slavery.—{hear o—When he made such a dis-
claimer it was not done for the purpose of asserting that
slavery should be indefinitely continued, but to assure those
concerned, that in fairness and in honour they could not
'bring that Act (the Abolition of the Slave Trade) to beer
against slavery which they allowed to remain, not for ever, but
till on its own grounds they should feel that they had a right to
deal' with it. It was not necessary to look back to the extin.
guished atrocities of a remote penod to revive past animosities,
by urging against. those whose interests were now put at hazard,
'that which had been contracted should not be urged against
the continuance of slavery, the horrors of the English Slave
Trade. The Honourable Gentleman would have done better
to have confined himself to that which necessarily connected
itself with his present motion. He would not follow the Hon.
Gentleman through what he had said on the Slave Trade, but
should treat it -as that which had gone by. The slave popula-
tion in our Colonies was said to have been accumulated by a
series of crimes. This, if it were historically correct, was not
legally so. The Hon. Gentleman had argued this question as
one of atonement. This might serve for the reflection of the
historian, or the sentiment of the moralist, but in a case of
great magnitude and inconceiveable difficulty, like the present,
such an appeal ought not to be made to that House. The ques-
tion before them must be dealt with as a problem, which re-
quired all their prudence and all their caution. When he
looked at our Colonies, he found a great slave population there,
with a comparatively small white community. The question
then to be propounded, seemed to him to be this, in what way
can the greatest degree of moral improvement and political
happiness be communicated to the blacks, with safety to the
whites, who were entitled to protection, as belonging to our
own country, as being fellow-subjects and as fellow-citizens.
He, who would cut a short way through this difficulty, by ap-
pealing to the passions, rather than to their reason in favour of
the blacks, without regard to the whites, might eloquently de-
chdm, but Parliament would pause before they suffered their
conduct to be influenced by such an Advocate. Was it
then possible for those most interested in the success of this
question—for those who only looked on it with the eyes of
moralists or philosophers—was it possible for any persons to
look at it as Members of that House, mid still more as Mem-
bers of the Government, sincerely as they might commiserate
• the situation of the unhappy beings to whom the motion re-
lerred, and anxious as they Might be to raise theni in the scale
of existence, 'was it possible, he asked, to•look at the system
with the extended root it had taken—strengthened and con-
'firmed itseas by the lapse of ages, without feeling that it
• ought to be touched with a delicate band ? These were knots
which must be carefully untied, and difficulties which must be
gradually solved, to elieet which the most patient considers.
tion anti the undivided attention of that. House would be required.
Were this lost sight of, the most flagrant injustice would be cont.
rnitted while they aimed at justice, if they considered themselves
to be carried away by an appeal to their feelings, without
paying due regard to existing etreumstances. The Hon. Oen..
tleman had commenced his resolution by a recitation which he
• (Mr-Canning) owned embarrassed him. His resolution set
forth, " that a state of slavery was repugnant to the principles
of the British Constitution and, of the Christian religion." Now
God forbid that he, if he ventured to say this was not correct,
should be understood to say that slavery was identified with
-the. Constitution, or .with the Christian religion. He did not
-say that the Slave Trade was consonant with the principles of
the British Constitution, and still less was he disposed to say
'that it was consonant with the Christian religion. But though
he did not say this, he must deny that the proposition of the
Hon. Gentleman in the sense which he appeared anxious that
it should convey was practically true. If the Hon. Gentleman
meant to assert that the Constitution did not admit of Slavery
in that part of the British Empire in which the Constitution
had been framed, the fact could not be denied, but it made
nothing for the object which he had in view. If he meant to
say that the English Constitution had not tolerated for centuries
another state of society than that which was preserved here, he

stated that which could not be maintained ; and he (AIL Can-
ning) but imperfectly understood the distinction which it was
intended to make between that which was morally true, and that

Which was historically false. The Christian religion was framed
to controul every thing that was vicious, by its operation on
-individual conduet and individual conscience. But to bring
its authority forward to aid a particular purpose, however
laudable that purpose, seemed to him in the present instance
an ill-timed'and improper reference. If this proposition were
true, that the Christian Religion opposed itself to the prin-
cipal of slavery as to every perversion of the human mind, and
in that sense might be held to condemn the practice of making'
man the property of man, he could understand that St might
be considered to oppose heat' to slavery, as to every thing else
-that was erroneous or vicious : but if it weremeant by the Hon.
*Gentlemen to convey an idea that Christianity and slavery
could not be co-existent, again he must declare the statement
to be historically false. The Christian Religion accommodated
itself to all conditions of life instead of confining itself to one.
It gilded the sceptre with glory and freedom, while it beamed
consolation on to slave. It tended to harmonize all differ-
ences of condition, by, shewing that the objects of this world
were trifling compared with those of the world to which it di.
rected pious expectation. True it was that it was hostile to
every abuse of power,; but it was not true that it opposed
slavery in the sense in which the lion. Gentleman would have it
understood that it did. Nothing in the Scriptures proved that
the Christian Religion could not be co-existent with slavery.
lie would therefore say "non men: hie aenno," and contend
that the position of the lion. Gentleman was not completely
defensible. One learned expounder of the Bible, Dr. Paley,
if his authority were admitted to have weight, would at once
decide the question between him and the Hon. Gentleman.—
' l'ilere the Right lion: Gentleman read a long extract front
Dr. Paley, setting forth, that when the Gospel was first pro-
mulgated', slavery formed a part of the Civil Constitution of.
most countries, yet there was no passage to be found in the
• Sacred Writings which condemned it. When Christianity so-
licited admission into all the states of the earth, it declined in.
ferferenco with the civil institutions of any. It did not thence
follow that Christianity discountenanced the change from a
'bad to a better system, but it had not enjoined, such a cluing°
as indispensable .to Christianity ; for to have done so would
."have been to set one half of the world against the other.—
This would have caused many calamities; and, among them'
might be counted that of a bellini servile.l—The Honourable
Gentleman could not wish fbr more than that in the dif.
~fusion of light and liberality the Christian Religion should
be left to its sure and free operation ; but it could- not be for
his own object desirable that those dangers should be incurred
• which a precipitate and violent course would almost of neces-
sity provoke. They must recollect that Christianity, was first
put forth to the world amidst the galling slavery of the Roman
-Empire--a slavery not exactly of the some character, yet so
galling and oppressive as to give the power of life and death.-
-They all knew the queation of the fine Lady in Juvenal's 6th
Satire, desiring. her husband to crucify the slave for not having
fulfilled her wishes. It was not by its o.ane that Christianity
worked the overthrow of that system, and it was therefore not
tor the Parliament to put forward the name of Christianity
now, for the purpoiee of dissolving the chains of modern slavery,
but to allow its principles to act their unerring part in finish-
ing the last great work of emancipation. If slavery were re-
pugnitnt to the spirit of the Constitution, and to the spirit of
Christianity, how could the lion. Gentleman pause for a moment
in endeavouring to obtain its entire destruction ? Instead of
which his own proposition 'was that of leaving to the one-half
the certainty of continual slavery, while only providing for the
gradual liberation of the other. But it was not entirely repug-
nant to the Constitution to have slavery exist in some parts of
-the dominions, although its spirit might be in the abstract op.
poled to it. It was because the spirit of the British Constitu-
tion and the spirit of Christianity were inimical to its exist-
ence that he should be inclined to leave them to work our
eventual emancipation. Ile agreed with much that had
'fallen from the lionoursble Gentleman, and he. agreed in the
necessity and justicesof neuch which he recommended to

be dome; but he could not agree to preface their exertions'
by resolutions so liable to misconstruction. If he were
asked why he objected to the plan proposed, he would
say that they must, in some degree, tionsider property as
the creature of law, and ae therefore being entitled to the
laws' protection. But if the Hon. Gentleman asked him whe-
ther he would have the progeny of the existing race be slaves,
undoubtedly he should say No." If; then, he asked him,
how he could reconcile this with. preserving the sacredness of
property, his answer was, that in removing a great national
stigma, in doing a great national justice, hp would not consent
for that national stigma to be removed, for that national justice
to be done, at the expence and loss of any single class or in-
terest, but that the burthen should be borne alike by all.—
(Cheers !)—ilis opinion, made up with that of his colleagues
after the most earnest and mature deliberation, was, that in
oilier to work with more certain and secure effect, these ope-
rations had better be left in the hands of the Executive Go-
vernment. With that view he should move certain resolu-
tions for the adoption of the House, instead of those proposed
by the Honourable Gentleman,. and they would differ only
in this—that he would lay down the same principles more cau-
tiously, leaving them to act more gradually, and, as he be-
lieved, more securely. Although he deemed it expedient thus
to treat the question upon general bases, yet he did not shrink
from particulars such as the Hon. Member had gone into.—
The lion. Gent, asked, whether it, were proper that there
should be driving to the field with the tart whip ? and he should
say, certainly not. He was for abolishing in tutu that degrad-
ing punishment as applied to females. He would have the
Sabbath more strictly appropriated to elevation and religious
instruction, and a greater time should be allowed for recrea-
tions, To those three points he was disposed to yield entirely;
there were also other points upon which he wished for a more
gradual change, but upon which he also agreed with the Hon.
Genileman in principle. The right of holding property he
would render still more sacred. lie agreed that the liberty of
bequest should be extended to 'the slaves, if possible ; he
agreed also that it was desiiable to allow of receiving their
evidence, with certain restrictions and regulations. He
agreed with the Honourable Gentleman, that public scales were
not justifiable upon the moral consideration, but then a legal
question superinduced over it upon the writs of venditioni ex-
ponas. There were many representatives of the property
which this question involyttl, who having every thing at stake,
were still anxious to ameliorate the condition of, the slaves, and
to give them freedom whenever they believed it practicable
and safe. Under these circumstances, he would ask whether
it were not the course of .wisdom to deliberate with calmness,
and- to act with caution, or Ishether, in the heat of angry dis-
cussion, some expressions might reit fall innocently there, but
which being in rafted in another place, might produce conse-
quences which he was sure the Honourable Gentleman him-
! self, though he did not expect them, would be anxious to ,
avoid; and, therefore, he trusted that he would be satisfied
with his Resolutions. There was one seaseein which, indeed,
they disagreed with the opinions of the lion. Gentleman. '"He
thought the shortest and the best way of extinguishing slavery
would be to name a day after which all who were born
should be free; and he moreover thought that such a measure
would satisfy the present race of slaves, and render them con-
tented with their situation. Now his (Mr. Canning's) opi-
nion was, not from any knowledge which he possessed of the
wishes and feelings of that unhappy race but from all he
knew of human nature, that It would be At least a matter, of
doubt, whether pouring out the full blaze of liberty upon their
eyes as being the portion of their children, would produce
that effect, or whether its actual effect would not be a direct
contrast to the supposed one. He only threw out these doubts
as presenting themselves stronly to his mind ; yet they
were but doubts, and if he, and those who acted with him,
could be ultimately convinced by the Honourable Gentle-
man that such doubts were not well founded, the channel of
their conduct would still be open. But lie objected to giving
any pledge of an abstract nature, and laying it down for
the construction of those whose every feeling and passion
would be awakened to force extreme, unanticipated, and con-
tradictory meanings upon the terms employed. In Parliament
laying down those principles in such a manner, the enslaved
would see what the eye of reason must see—unqual;fied eman-
cipation. They must not, therefore, lay down their principles
too largely, or their qualifications would come too late. The
course he would earnestly recommend to the House was, to
bind up their qualifications id the body of their principles, so
that no misapprehension could be pleaded, and no misinter-
pretation arise. To efreet this he should propose the following
resolutions:— _

" Ist. That it is expedient to adopt efficient and decisive
measures for ameliorating the condition of the slave popula-
tion of his Majesty's Colonies.
" 2d. That in their determination to persevere In the timely,
judicious? and temperate enforcement of such measures this
House will look forward to the gradual and progressive im-
provement in the condition of' that population, such as will
prepare them for a participation'. in the civil rightsl and privi.
leges enjoyed by the other daises of his Majesty's subjects.
" 3d. That this House is anxious to accomplish such change,
at the earliest period consistent with the well-being of the
slaves themselves, the safety of the colon4es, and a fair and
equitable regard to the rights of property involved."
It these resolutions were agreed to by the House, he should
follow them by another, which was (as was understood), that
the Resolutions be laid on the table and printed. There was
one other topic upon, which he would detain the House for a
short time ; he meant the conduct to be pursued by the Execu-
tive. There were some Colonies in which the Crown held au-
thority without independent Legislatures ; and there the mea-
sures decided upon might be carried into effect without obstruc-
tion. What was done there, he trusted, would operate with the
force of example upon theother colonies. He thought it was only
fair to expect a real and earnest co-operation from the Colonial
establishments. Looking to the extreme, and what he believed
not to he the probable case, of any disinclination or opposition
to the measures recommended by the executive, on the part of
the local legislatures, he should not be slow in coming to Parlia-
ment to its assistance. Having said thus much, rather, he was
anxious to persuade himself, calculated to close debate than to
provoke it,
_he should relieve the House from attending to him
further. The Hon. Gentleman had perhaps pursued a some-
what different course ; but he had only to deal with the ques-
don as one of humanity, prompted by the undivided influence
of moral feelings. Their conduct had also been actuated by
motives of the same nature ; in fact their duty prescribed it ;
but they had also to be guided by the consideration of prac-
tical results, and of the preservation of doubtful interests__
They should not, however, be backward in endeavouring to
recover the character of the country, by doing justice to those
whom it had so deeply wronged ; at the same time having a
just regard to the rights of those who, by no fault of them-
selves, were placed in a situation which they had inherited from
their ancestors, and in which they had been encouraged by re-
peated Acts of Parliament. The very encouragement which
Parliament had given them, had placed them in a situation of
hazards and difficulties ;-hazards, therefore, which they (the
House) had no right to aggravate, and difficulties which they
had no-right to increase.—(Cheering.)
Mr. WILBURFORCE said, that lie was at a loss to con.
eelve how a preposition which was so much in the true spirit
of Christianity and the British Constitution, should have met
with any opposition. That unfortunate class of ' men who
were the objects of this motion, were British subjects, and
to what tribunal could they appeal for relief more propnly,
than the British Parliament? And it was impossible to state
that case correctly, without going into details. He rejoiced,
however, that his Honourable Friend had not labour-
ed totally in vain, for it was an important concession
which the Right Ilouourable Gentleman had made of
abolishing the punishment of women, the abolition of
the Sunday slave-market, and the dispensing with the
working of slaves on Sundays. But it was a duty incum-
bent upon his Majesty's Government, to observe the prac-
tical effects of Government in the Colonies, and apply
such remedies to it as might, be necessary; on these grounds
the discussion of the question was at all times proper, and
as to the danger which might be apprehended from it to
the colonies, former experience had disproved the probability
of it, for reports of former discussion, of this question had been
published in the colonial newspapers, and yet no insurrection
followed. The condition of the slaves was ultimately con-
nected with the Government of the West India Colonies.—
There were upon the table returns of' the population of the
%Vest India Islands, from which it appeared that a great de-
crease was still yearly taking place. This decrease had been
attributed to the excessive labour imposed upon the slaves.—
It was idle to caleulaie that the prohibition to import slaves
would be effectual, whilst slavery was suffered to exist in
the SVest Indies. Ile admitted, that it would be better if
the slaves, were prepared gradually for rise enjoyment of
freedom ; but unless the legislature interfered, no bene..
ficial improvement could take place. Certainly, if they were
so converted, it would be as much for the benefit of the
planters as the slaves themselves. Surely the legislature might
sanction some of the preliminary steps; a proposition was
made thirty years ago, by Lord Melville, for bestowing upon
them, partially, some of the blessings of freedom, which if it
had been adobted, there would not be a slave in the West In.
dies. But the question was whether the changes were to be
made by the British Parliament, or the Colonial Legislatu.e.
He had no hesitation in saying, that if these latter took up tie
matter, he would prefer them. But how was that to be ex-
pected
pec . Had the House no experience on the subject ? It was
a fact, that the colonial legislatures had always opposed every
proposition for setting the slaves free. He hoped the Right
Hon. Gentleman would feel the necessity of effecting some re-
form in the state of the colonies, and that he would feel him-
self responsible for seeing the Reform into effect, as these per-
sons had no other protection to claim, but that of the
British Parliament. lie hoped, however, the matter would

be mended in one way or other. In one part orhis Honour-
able Friend's statement, he differed from him, namely
that in which he compared the slaves of the West Indies
to the Helots of old. In the condition of the two classes,
here was this broad distinction in favour of the latter; that
when they distinguished themselves by any particular good con-
duct, they were generally rewarded with their manumission,
which was rarely done in modern times. It was not enough
that the changes should be recommended to the colonial legis-
lature, but the Government should see them effected. It was
their duty to do so, and it was quite consistent with the spirit of
the constitution, that they should insist upon having those
changes carried into effect.--( Hear I)—He congratulated his
Hon. Friend upon what he had gained by his mstion. He was
in a much better situation than when he came into the House.
He hoped, therefore, after the pledge given by Government,
that his Hon. Friend.would not press his motion, but confide
in that pledge, that thasubjeet should be taken into the earliest
and fullest consideration.

Mr. C. ELLIS said, that he always felt the difficulty of op-
posing the fascinating eloquence of the Hon. Member who had
just sat down, but he felt in a still stronger degree the duty of
supporting the rights of that class to which he belonged. He
did not stand there the champion of slavery, nor were the pre-
sent planters to be held responsible for the establishment of
that system which they were compelled to uphold. They found
themselves in possession of property acquired by their ances-
tors or predecessors, and amongst a population with whom a
certain scheme of society had long been carried into effect.—
All they had to do was to administer their power with feeling
and humanity, carried as far as their own safety and the secu-
rity of their property would allow. if they had not done so,
they were answerable to a much higher tribunal than that House.
The Slave Trade had begun, not for the benefit of the Colonies,
but for the commerce and manufactures of the country. Be-
fore slaves were employed in the Colonies, this country was
engaged in the traffic, and carrying them for foreigners, as a
common use of ships and seamen. The establishment of sla-
very in the Colonies, he contended, was- the fault of the Go-
vernment, not of the planters. Before the Ijouse came to any
strong measures upon this subject, it was bound to reflect
and weigh the consequences. Liberty was the greatest bless-
ing that man could possess; yet it was liable to abuse if
conferred on those who were not fit to receive it, and to
be abused to the injury of those on whom it was conferred.
Supposing that amongst those negroes, where Christianity
had but recently and imperfectly bden inculcated, some
should fall back to their old, superstitions, and take to mur-
der and plunder, after having been emancipated. Should
they in such a case have done their duty ? He should con-
ceive the duty of the House to have been of a very different
character. He believed it to consist in bringing the slaves
under the gradual and complete influence of the Christian
Religion, and then they would be fitted for emancipation.—
The Honourable Member then alluded to a proposition which
he carried through the House upon the subject in 1797,
and to the progressive measures which had been taken at
other periods, for ameliorating the condition of the Blacks.-1
With regard to a repeal of the law of renditioni exponas, he
had no doubt that if the legal difficulties Which appeared to
present themselves to such a repeal, could be surmounted by
the Attorney-General, or the Noble and Learned Person who
presided in the Court of Chancery, no objection would be
made to it by the planters. Many improvements however had
taken- place without Parliamentary interference. The Coro-
ners Bill .had been paired by the Assemblies, directing In-
quests to be-held on the bodies of slaves, and the purity of the
office of Coroner was ensured as far as it could be by a liberal
salary. But the principal improvement was in the condition
of the slaves themselves. They were, in general, much more
Orderly:and more industrious than they hail been. They at-
tended divine service in great' numbers, and marriage among
them was very frequent. lie mentioned these facts merely to
spew that Improvement had actually taken place ; for really, to
some of die proposals of the lion. Member he had no sort of ob-
jection. For instance, the proposal to secure property to the
slaves. To this he did not apprehend any difficulty would be
offered. As to the driving system, he was convinced it had
been much exaggerated, in the statement. He did not believe
the whip was generally used as a stimulus to labour, but merely
as a symbol of authority. Indeed the West India- Proprietors
attached but little importance to it. To the proposal respect.
ing the punishment of females there would be. no objection,
that lie was aware of. To that for rendering the evidence of
slaves admissible he believed there was no objection ; but the
adoption of this proposal must be understood with considera-
ble qualification, and must, at all events, be preceded by rell.
gious instruction. Much stress had been laid on the inattention
which had been shown to religious instruction amen the
slaves, but it should be recollected that the Colonial Clergy
were nominated by the Governors, who were appointed
by the Crown. The only share which the Colonists had in
these matters was the payir.g of the salaries. They were
therefore, not to blaMe for the inattention in question, though
their liberality in the payment had too often proved a tempts.'
tion to an abuse of the patronage. He by no means intended
to insinuate that any abuse of this description prevailed at
present. On the contrary, he believed that the Church pa.
tronage was now most judicioulsy exercised ; but it must not
be forgotten that the present state of morals among the Slaves
'
was the fruit of seed long Mince sown • and, at all events, he
apprehended the remedy was not to be found in emancipation.
Ile did not even think that mere emancipation would have the
least tendency to correct it; for the House were not to be in-
formed that the greatest degree of licentiousness was com-
patible with political freedom. He considered that the
course proposed by the Right Honourable Gentleman was
the wisest, as well as the most just. He had no doubt
that it would meet with the co-operation of the Colonial As-
semblies, nor that the very able and statesman-like speech of
the Right Hon. Gentleman would materially assist towards the
insuring of that ce-operation. Indeed, this course had' been
also pointed out by a most able writer, who was himself
friendly to the cause of emancipation ; and had been glanced
at by the Report of the African Institution for the year 1008.
These authorities had recommended that slavery should be abo.
lished by, a change of manners and the encouragement of
manumission, rather than by compulsory enactments ; that it
should be accomplished by insensible progress; that it should
not be mowed down by the scythe of Legislation, but should
be gradually rooted out by stalks collected by individual hands.
Mr. W.M. SMITH gave credit to the Hon. Member who
had just sat down for many of his sentiments. He agreed with
him that the abolition of slavery should be gradual; but then
he thought it should be certain ; and the proposal which had
been made that night by the Right Honourable Gentleman
rendered it uncertain. He begged to call the attention of the
House, and that of the ltight lion. Gentleman opposite, to a
circumstance to which he did not appear to have given its de-
served importance. In June, 1816, that House had voted
an Address to the Prince Regent, requesting his Royal High-
ness would be graciously pleased to use his influence in the
British Colonies towards bettering the condition of the negro
slaves, by giving them moral and religious instruction, and
increasing their comforts; and to this Address his Royal High-
ness had returned a most gracious answer, promising so to use
that influence. Now, either the planters did not attend to the
•reeommendation of the Crown, or, if they did, they must
have notions differing very widely from those of that House as
to what was comfort and what was not. Ile would ask the
Hon. Member who had just sat down, whether any one of the
propositions to which he had himself admitted there could be
no objection, had ever been put into a train of accomplishment
by the West India Proprietors ? When he looked at the papers
which had been laid on the table, respecting the condition of
Negro Slaves, he was not a little surprised to find that no return
had been made from Jamaica; and the House was therefore
obliged, as to that Island, to take the statement of the Hon.
Member, drawn probably, in a great measure from that of
others. He found, however, on reference to a Jamaica Gazette
of last November, that the Committe reported there was no at-
tendance of the negroes at places of divine worship, except in
few large Chapelries. Indeed, the condition of the negroes lie
was satisfied was as much backward in some respects, as it was
fcrward in others, and in particular, in,anumission had been
rendered more diflicult. The lion. Member almost appeared
to protest against the right of interference on the part of Parlia-
ment.

Mr. ELIAS said, he had applied himself to the policy and
the consequence Ot interference.
Mr. W. SMITH said, if the arguments of the Hon Member
in this view of the question were allowed to prevail, the work
of abolition would proceed slowly indeed. When they were
told of the slowness with which the abolition of Villeinage in
Europe had proceeded, was it to be inferred that, in the 19th
century, they were to make no greater progress in the aboli-
tion of :Slavery ? For his own part he should always protest
against the doctrine of man being, under any circumstances,
the property of man ; and until this idea should be altogether
done away with, he feared the march of amelioration would pro..
ceth meat slowly. Before he sat down, he could not but ex-
press his wish that the Right Hon. Gentleman had stated more
fully ard explicitly, his views as to the length of time he pro.
posed, and the kind of security he ()trued.
Mr. BRIGHT appealed to the dispassionate sense of the
House whether the condition of slavery were in many islands
gradually improving. There had been some misrepresentations
published on this subject, whence it would appear that some of
;he Colonies had adopted restrictions on granting freedom to
slaves, almost amounting to a prohibition of manumission. The
fact was, that these fines on manumission hhd been in St. Kitt's
and St. Vincent's remitted, or front being from 3001. to 2001.
had been redacted to a mere annuity of 101., 151. or 181. per
annum. In Tobugo, the line was entirely remitted. In De-
merara, Tortola, and Trinidad, all the large fines on manumis-
sion had been remitted ; so that in 'most cases, these fines were
now remitted or abolished. He was hence emboldened to ques-
tion the inference that the heavy tines now existing on granting

freedom to Slaves, almost -amounted to a prohibition of the,
practice ; in fact, West India Traders had been excessively ill
treated by many persons who had written on the subject, and
more particularly by a' Mr. Macauley, who wrote a work on
this subject. The fact was, that if any important change could
'be effected in the state of the West India Slaves, the West India
Planters would be glad to throw away the whip altogether.—
Such was the opinion of a very intelligent and worthy medical
man, who had been a long time a resident in those islands. For
his own part, he must assert, that as far as he was acquaninted
with West India Proprietors, he believed they were actuated
by the sincerest desire to improve and ameliorate the condition
of the Slave population.
Mr. ROSE said, that he had felt, as far as he was connected
with the West India Islands, through a small estate which he
possessed in Jamaica, the greatest difficulty in procuring fur
his slaves any religious instruction from any other quarter ex-
cept. through the Wesleyan Societies. On his own estate, the
scale of punishment in a very short period had sunk so low, as
not to exceed in the course of a twelvemonth above ten in-
stances in 150 males, and one instance in above 100 females.—
He hoped, through the medium of religious instruction, the
objectionable practice of severe punishment would be altogether
abolished, as already some islands were opened to the %V esley-
ans, against whom alone any objection existed. He was strongly
induced to hope the work of reforming and improving the con-
dition of slaves in these Colonies would be effected, if en-
couragement were given and funds created by West India Pro-
prietors for the use of the Wesleyan, Moravian, and other
religious Missionaries.
Mr. SYKES objected to the evidence of Mr. Williamson on
this subject, who it was plain was a friend to the system of
Colonial Slavery. It was impossible to look at the Jamaica
Gazette without perceiving that slaves were excited to action,
called to their meals, and even to their miserable repose, by the
exercise of the whip ; and that they and their little property
were continually exposed to sale with the cattle and furniture on
the estate. He was happy to find that the business was about
to fall into the hands of Government. They could do much
more; perhaps, to alleviate the condition of slaves than any who
were not official persons ; and he hoped they would take care
that the Local Legislatures should not be permitted to defeat
their benevolent intentions.
Mr. MARRYATT said, he had recently had occasion to re-
fer to some documents from the island of Dominica, and he
was enabled to state that slave testimony had been rendered
admissible by an Act of the Assembly passed in the year 1013.
—(Hear !)--This had been found to be attended with no incon-
venience, and he had no doubt- the measure would be adopted
by the other Islands. The Hon. Member for Norwich would
probably ask if any thing had been done in consequence of the
Address of that House to the Crown in the year 1816 ? He
(Mr. M.) confidently answered, there had. It was very ex-
traordinary that the Hon. Member had not read the Reports of
the different Governors to the Crown in consequence of the
recommendations which followed that Address. Or, if the

Hon. Member had read those Reports, it was extraordinary
that he had not collected the fact that great improvement had
taken place in the condition of the Slaves.—[The Hon. Mem-
ber here referred to the Report from the Governor of Domi-
nice, stating that the Slaves of that Colony were well treated,
and that the Planters were inclined to attend to any recom-
mendation from the Government' as to their future treatment.]
A similar Report had been made by the Governor of Hondu-
ras, according to whose account it appeared that the Slaves
were allowed the produce of their Saturday's labour, and
that the Sunday was considered as their own. This Gover-
nor had said that he was, when he first went out, " a per-
feet 'Wilberforce as to slavery."—(A laugh.)—Reports to
the same effect had been made from St. Christopher's, Nevis,
Montserrat, St. Lucia, Tobago, and Jamaica. Theplanters of
the latter island were merely apprehensive of too eudden a '
change in the manners of the slaves. It was a fact that many
of them preferred their present condition to manumitting them-
selves, or accepting manumission when it was offered to them.
The authorities to which he had referred were not those of the
rather
the as
original
proprietors themselves, but of governors. Indeed he be-
lieved that the slaves of the West India islands are better
off than the labourers of this country. With regard to the two
motions before the House, he thought the differencea between
Motion
theme
twhoatniltatsgtiove jtheusetndgroinonvdiewof.
thoughtHe s
dissatisfation, and that the Amendment would cause good will
between the planters and their slaves, and induced the grati-
tude of the latter towards their masters. He should support
the Amendment.
Mr. BROUGHAM said, he could not allow this question to
be finally disposed of, without taking care that he should not
be understood to be a party to what he thought would prove a
delusion though he sincerely believed that it would not be a
delusion intended by the Right lion. Gentleman who had been
uniformly a warm and able advocate for the abolition of
slavery. He (Mr. Broughtn) could not see any means of
carrying into effect those admirable doctrines which were
somewhat slieculatively advanced in the Amendment. Two
Addresses from both Houses of Parliament had, at different
times been presented to the Crown, praying that it would.
take measures for ameliorating the condition of the Negroes.
Those Addresses had been most erraciously received by the
Crown ; and yet, seven years after the last Address, they were
not any more forward than they were originally. He was told
however that his distrust of Colonial Legislatures was misap-
plied; and his Hon. and Learned Friend the Member for Bris-
tol (Mr. Bright) was well content to take the testimony of the
slave owners themselves as to their humanity. His Hon. and
Learned Friend had also told them not to trust to a book called
" Negro Slavery," anti had brought a grave charge against
the author of that book, a Mr. Macaulay, whom he had long
known as a friend; and whose conduct was above all praise.
After a warm and eloquent eulogium on Mr. Macaulay,
and his exertions in the sacred cause of abolishing slavery,
the Honourable and Learned Member observed that, in the
case of the particular charge brought against that Gentleman
respecting his misquoting Mr. Cooper, the answer was short
and decisive. Mr. Cooper had himself corrected the press
sheet of that part of Mr. .111acauley's work.—(Hear, hear!)—
He (Mr. B.) was quite satisfied his Hon. and Learned Friend
had no intention to bring an unfounded charge against Mr. Ma-
caulay. The Hon. and-Learned Gentleman lamented that he
could not see the treatment of the slaves to be so admirable as
an Honourable Member lied described. He admitted that Go-
vernor Maxwell was humane, but if the inhabitants of Domi-
nica were as humane, why was the Governor presented by the
Grand Jury ? It was said 211 was perfect, and that the slaves
were so delighted with their condition that they had no wish to
change. Ile had seen in the Jamaica Paper something like
a contradiction to that statement. It was not reasonable to
suppose they wished for no change in their situation, because
he found not less than fifty runaway slaves advertised—
The Honourable and Learned Gentleman read the advertise-
ment, and also one for a runaway female slave named Celia;
her person was described as being marked and branded with
the letters P. IV. S. He denied that ancient history could
furnish any cases of slavery so disgusting as the system of sla-
very in the Colonies. No one could find anything like the bru-
tal force anti use of the whip which distinguished the treatment
of slaves in the West Indies, who were reduced to a footing
with the brute. It was said however, on a former occasion,
when the subject came under the consideration of that House,
that the unfortunate negro would be enlightened by reli-
gion. They were told of the kind Governor, the humane
master, and the amiable driver. All these topics were urged
to render the generous efforts of humanity made for the libera-
tion of the unfortunate slaves unsuccessful. The statement that
slaves were under the controul of old masters was incorrect.
The West India Planter was not like the English landholder,
Nest India property was always subject to fluctuation—masters
of plantations might be humane, but it appeared on inquiry,
that it was not the interest of masters to behave well to slaves.
Persons too often purchased Colonial property as a specula -
tion, and to make the most of their purchase they were tbs_
posed to flog their slaves, under the expectation of making the
property more productive. The Postmasters in England often
flogged their horses on a principle of profit and loss. The more
the animals could do, the greater was the interest of the merciless
owner. He might ask what had been done since the abolition to
ameliorate the condition of the slaves ? His lamented Friend
(Si, S. Romily) put that question, and no satisfactory answer
could be given ; and all the advocates of emancipation had
been bitterly disappointed. After dwelling upon these topics
at considerable length, he expressed a hope that his lion.
Friend would not quit the subject until he produced a law
to make all male children born in the Colonies free; and con-
eluded by hoping that this and other similar regulations would
be enacted. _ _

_Mr. ManitvaTT explained.
Mr. BERNAL thought his Hon. and Learned Friend, the
Member for Winchelsea, had made an invidious attack on the
owners of colonial property, in comparing thtm to Post-mas-
teri. He could prove that acts of cruelty in the West India
colonies had been prosecuted and punished. It was unworthy
the talent of his Learned Friend to state that negroes were
branded and treated like cattle. Was it candid or fair to call in
the aid of ridicule which could only cast unmerited obloquy on
the unfortunate planters. Run-away slaves had always been
found by advertisement, and were secured in workhouses. It
was well known that in Jamaica 41 persons of the black popu-
lation having claim to freedom, could proceed by law against
any one who detained them, and recover dantages.
Mr. ALA INING explained.
Mr. BARING shewed that the statements as to the situation
of the slaves had been greatly exaggerated, and entered at some
length into the general question that it was not one on which
this country could form a correct judgment, and of course the
greatest circumspection ought to be used in legislating upon it.
Lord ALTIfORP strongly condemned the present system,
observing that he wanted nothing more to prove the necessity
of interfering in behalf of these wretched beings, when they

were -content, of their own free choice, to doom their progeny
to the perpetual lash of a brutal master—their daughters to his
lust.—(Hear, hear!)
Mr. F. BUXTON made a general reply.
Mr. Secretary CANNING explained that he had abjured
the idea of perpetual slavery, being convinced that a time must
arrive when the progeny of slaves must be free. But he had
guarded himself, whatever might be his feeling, front saying
any thing specific as to when or how, because lie had no pre-
cise plan in his mind, and also because he did not wish to say
any thing that night, which he might hereafter be required to
qualify.
Mr. F. BUXTON said, that under these considerations, with
the concurrence of his friends, he had only to express his ex,
treme satisfaction at the decided manner in which the Right
Hon. Gentleman had declared himself, and ask permission to
withdraw his motion, with liberty to renew it, should any mis-
understanding arise.
The Motion was then withdrawn, and the other Orders of
the Day having been disposed, the ouse adjourned at HALF.
PAST ONE.