The Sun.
London, England, 1841-05-28 00:00:00

ig; SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, MAY 28, 1841.

would not pledge himself to a sliding scale ; yet he
(Lord Worsiey) did not know but the Right Hon.
Baronet himself might support a sliding scale.—(Hear,
hear.) He thought the agricultural interest, who had
had viewed with so much alarm the proposition of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, would continue in alarm,
unless they were informed of the intentions of the Right
Hon. Baronet.--(Cheers, and cries of " Oh, oh.") He
ought to make known to the agricultural interest what
amount of protection he proposed to give them when lie
came into office, for no man who heard his speech the
other evening could doubt for a moment that it was his
intention to alter the present sliding scale. That interest
had a right to ask that question, because one of the
Conservative Candidates for Manchester, one who
had been high in office under the Right Ho-
nourable Baronet--he meant Sir George Murray—
rested his claims for support upon his being an advocate
for a low fixed duty on corn.—(Cheers.) He agreed in
the general policy of the Government and could not see
any reason why he should withdraw his confidence in
them to transfer it to one of whose policy, even upon the
point he differed from the Government, he knew nothing.
—(Cheers.) The Government had a right to suppose
that the country agreed with their general policy, and he
could see no reason why they should withdraw from
office.--(Cheers and laughter.) When the Right Hon..
Baronet retired in 1835 it was not so much upon consti-
tutional grounds, but because he found that it was impos-
sible for him to gain the confidence of the House upon
any occasion. Ho did not consider that he was acting in-
consistently in supporting the Government—(Cheers from
the Opposition)—because he felt himself obliged to vote
against their proposition the other day—he was not acting
inconsistently in voting against the motion, approving as
he did of the general policy of the Government.
Mr. CHRISTOPHER said it was his custom, as a
Member of that House, to confine himself to questions
which affected his own constituency, leaving matters ol
general importance to Gentlemen on both sides of the
House who were better able, from their experience and
talents, to take part in their discussion. But he was
induced to rise on that occasion in consequence of the ob-
servations which had been addressed to the House by
his Noble Friend who had just sat down.—(Hear, hear.)
He confessed that he was very much surprised at the
speech of his Noble Friend.—(Hear, hear.) He had had
the honour to be present with his Noble Friend at one
of the largest, most influential, and unanimous meetings
of their constituents that had ever been held, convened
by the High Sheriff of the county in tho Castle-yard at
Lincoln, and he would venture to tell his Noble Friend
that there was no person who attended that meeting
who did not depart from it with the full conviction that
he had withdrawn his confidence from the Government.
—(Cheers from the Tory benches.) What illusion had
come over his Friend's mind since he had returned from
the county of Lincoln, he (Mr. Christopher) was unable
to explain—whether the air of the city of London was
more favourable to the doctrines of free trade and confi-
dence in her Majesty's Ministers than the air of the
county of Lincoln he was also unable • to explain ; but
he would remind his Noble Friend that at the meeting in
question he said, in emphatic terms, and was loudly
cheered by his assembled constituents when he said it,
that as her Majesty's Government had overthrown
the agricultural interest,", he would prepare to
overthrow the Government.—(Hear. hear.) • That there
might be no misunderstanding when he (Mr. Christopher)
addressed his constituents he gave his Noble Friend
credit for the difficulties which he had overcome in de-
serting his party after so long a connection. It was
true that his Noble Friend qualified his declaration by
saying that, with regard to certain measures he was
placed in this embarrassment, ;that if his Right Hon.
Friend below him assumed the reins of office he could
not by any means give his confidence to him--(Hear,
hear, from the Liberal benehes)—but there was no per-
son who attended that meeting, and he saw several gen-
tlemen afterwards who were in the habit of supporting
his Noble Friend, who did not depart with a conviction
that on a vote of want of confidence in her Majesty's
Ministers his Noble Friend would give it his support.-
(Cheers from the Tory benches.) As he had before
stated, it was not his intention to take any lead-
ing part in the discussion of that evening ; but,
as far as his own opinion went, ho ha no
hesitation in saying that on constitutional grounds
the motion of his Right Honourable Friend was
justified. What had been the conduct of the Queen's
Governni ent ? In the first place they had come forward
with legislative measures which they were unable to
carry in that House—measures which they declared were
essential for the full development of those principles of
Government which they professed. He was unable to
explain why they had withdrawn the Poor-law, unless it
was that anticipating a dissolution, they feared it would
not be favourably viewed in the manufacturing districts.
(Hear, hear.) With regard to measures of finance, the
Government had failed, for on the question of the Sugar
Duties the House of Commons had declared that they
would not sanction that system of legislation. They had
heard nothing from the Government about the Timber
Duties, but they proposed to bring forward the question
of the Corn-laws in the course of a week. Now
he would appeal to his Noble Friend, and ask him whe-
ther it would not be an insult to his constituency to tell
them that they were solely to oppose the Government on
the question of the Conn-laws, but they were to support
them on every other question. If they did so, they
would in effect be giving a tacit support to the Govern-
ment, ansl would enable them, in case a dissolutions took
place, to return to Parliament those parties that would
enable them to carry the Corn-law question.—(Cheers.)
Lord WORSLEY, in explanation, read a report of the
speech he made at Lincoln, in part of which he stated
that there were many questions on which he agreed with
the Government, but when he found they were acting
wrongly on the subject of the Corn-laws, he was deter-
mined to oppose them. In withdrawing his support from
Ministers on the Corn-laws, it was not to be supposed
that he would withdraw his support from them on every
other question.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir J. HOBHOUSE was extremely glad that when he
first rose he gave way to the Noble Lord the Member for
Lincolnshire. It was not to be supposed that any gentle-
man who had so long supported her Majesty's Govern-
ment, as the Noble Lord had done, because ho could not
go along with them on one subject, that, therefore, he
was to oppose them upon every question they
brought forward.—(Hear, hear.) Ile hoped that the
example of the Noble Lord would not be lost sight of,
but whether it was, or was not, his high character, his
honourable motives, and the situation he held in the
House, and the country, would put him far above
any suspicion.—(Hear, hear.) He stated this
because he thought from the cheers which he had
heard from the other side that it was supposed
that some unworthy motive had induced him to adopt
the course he had done. He agreed with the Noblelord
that the Right Hon. Gentleman, in bringing the present
motion forward, had done it with the greatest moderation,
but at the same time he must say that he totally dissented
from the chief position he had laid down. He totally
dissented from the fact that the Government, on the
whole, since it became a Government, had been unable to
carry into effect the measures it had proposed to Parlia-
ment.—(A laugh.) The same Noble Lord that had
laughed before had done him the honour of laughing
again ; all he could say was, that if in the assertions he
had made there was anything which the House and the
country contradicted, there was ground for the laughter
of the Noble Lord ; but if what he stated was the fact,
then the laugh of the Noble Lord was entirely out of place.
It was most true that the Government had had to con-
tend with great difficulties. When it first came into
office in 1835, the Right Hon. Gentleman took care to
remind the House and the country that the 'Ministers
had not the confidence of the Crown. It was true
that they entered into office without. having that kindly
feeling on the part of the Crown which every Adminis-
tration ought to have.—(Cheers.) But in spite, how-
ever, of all their difficulties, in spite of opposition on the
part of the House of Lords, they had carried many and
most important measures, some of which he would recall
to the recollection of the House. The present Govern-
ment came into office in April, 1835, and in their first
Session they carried the great measure of English and
Scotch Municipal Reform. In 1836 they carried the
great measure of the Commutation of English Tithes, a
measure which he would venture to say was sufficient work
for a Session. They also carried through in the same
Session a measure for the Registration of Births, Deaths,
and Marriages. In 1837 the demise of the Crown pre-
vented any important measures being carried. In 1838
they carried the Irish Tithe Bill, notwithstanding the
taunts that had been thrown against them for the omis-
sion of the appropriation clause. In 1839 they carried
several important measures. They carried a general
measure for the establishment of a rural police; and
also a measure for the reduction of postage, which
the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite seemed to
think was a measure for which they ought to be con-
demned rather than praised.—(Hear, hear.) Who, he
would ask, supported that measure ? why the propriety
of it was urged upon the House of Lords by Lord Ash-
burton—(Hear, hear)—and in that House some of the
most respectable supporters of the Right Honourable
Gentleman, and among them the Noble Lord the Member
for Liverpool, had stated their opinions in favour of the
measure. In 1840 the present Ministers passed the Irish
Municipal Bill, the Ecclesiastical Reform Bill, and the
Union of the Canadas Bill.--(Hear, hear.) During this
time they had also to carry on affairs of a most com-
plicated nature with respect to foreign politics. He
would not trouble the House by referring to any of
those great measures which his Noble Friend had con-
ducted in a manner that had won for him the admira-
tion of all Europe, and the reluctant acquiescence of even
some of the gentlemen opposite. He would venture to
say, if the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite was asked
that it had never entered into his head till very lately
to make such a motion as he had done that night.--
(Hear.) The Right Honourable Gentleman had referred
to conduct the Government, and the character it main-
tained in the country, and he had stated that as they
could not carry the measures that they had brought for-
ward, they were not entitled to the confidence of the
House. He (Sir J. Hobhouse) thought in theshort review
he had taken of what the present Ministry had done,
that he had proved that the Government had carried
out the policy they had set out with. It was very true
that they could not carry the Irish Registration Bill,
but they had carried the principle of it. If they were
to have motions condemnatory of them, because
they could not carry their views with respect
to Ireland into effect, he should hi t to '-now,
if the Right Hon. Gentleman came into office to-
morrow, what
chance there would be have of his
carrying the Noble Lord the MeMber for North
da on thea p pretextoar
ei
h
tosuppose ind
Lan-
cashire's Bill ?—(Hear; hear.) It was true that an ad-
verse vote had been come to on the amendment moved
by the Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool. On that
occasion the Government had -
of humanity, but a more gross failure to attempt
proved
oroved
abortive.up-
set a Government never took place. The attempt to
aie
e
Tanti-slaverybeendfe
natetl
cryei
nn p
that it was usual for Minister's to
resign when they were defeated upon any great
rraise
l)
ihuemßight cry, Honourableand
financial measure. Now he (Sir, J. Hobhouse) asserted
that such was not the case. The Right lion. Gentleman

had alluded to the case of Sir Robert Walpole. That
Right Hon. Gentleman proposed a great measure of
finance, and he was beaten upon that, but he did not
resign. He alluded to the question of Excise. Upon
that occasion Sir Robert Walpole stated that he consi-
dered the carrying of that measure was necessary for the
support of the country under its then circumstances. But
nevertheless such was the opposition against it, that he
was obliged to give it up, but he did not resign.—(Hear.)
Lord Liverpool's Government was beat upon the Pro-
perty Tax, by a majority of 37, pretty much the same
number as the majority of the other night, Tet he did not
resign. But he would give a case in which the Right
Hon. Baronet was himself concerned. He was in office,
when the Test and Corporations Bill was repealed. That
Bill was brought forward by his Noble Friend ; he beat
the Government upon the question. It was certainly a
great measure, yet, although beat, the Government, in
obedience to the vote of the House, allowed the Bill to
become law, and yet they never thought of resign-
•ing ; and no one that he remembered ever taunted
them with it. With respect to the taunt which the
Right Hon. Baronet had alluded to, it was an act of in-
discretion, of which lie had publicly repented in that
House, and he had hoped that the generosity of the
Right Hon. Baronet would have induced him to spare
his (Sir J. H.'s) foclings on that occasion. He then
came to the Ministry of the Right Honourable Gentle-
man, in 1834 and 1835. He admitted that he
had at last yielded to the expressed wishes
of the House. He had done so, but at what
period ?—he did not yield at the time when,
in accordance with the principle he now laid down, ho
ought to have yielded. He was beat upon the Speaker-
ship, which was a question which, in former times, was
regarded as decisive of the fate of a Ministry. On the
Address, an amendment, not one of mere form, but one
strongly condemning the first act of the policy of the
Right Hon. Baronet, the dissolving of the Parliament,
in which those on his side of the House had a majority
of about 240—that amendment was carried by a ma-
jority of 7. Yet the Right Hon. Baronet said, although
the vote was one of censure upon him, ho would perse-
vere, because it was not a direct vote of no confi-
dence. He could not, of course, allude to the case
of the appointment of Lord Londonderry, because the Right
Hon. Gentleman said, had he been beaten on that subject he
wonld have resigned. He acknowledged that a Government
must either have the confidence of the House or they must re-
sign, or they must, of necessity, take the course which the
Right Hon. Gentleman took. The Right Hon. Gentleman
was beaten also on the Chatham election by a majority of 31 ;
on the Leicester election by 46, and on the grant of a Charter
to the London University by a majority of 110. Then came
the successive defeats on the Irish Church. No man could for
a moment suppose that he had the confidence of the House, but
still he held the reins of Government. At the time, bethought
the Right Hon. Baronet was acting against the spirit of the
Constitution—he thought so still. He was of opinion
with Mr. Fox, that without the confidence of the House of
Commons a Government is no Government at all.—(Hear,
hear.) He was still of that opinion, and nothing on earth
would induce him to hold office for five minutes if it was proved
to him that he did so against the wishes of the majority of the
House. The Right Hon. Baronet had alluded to the occur-
rences of 1784. The real fact was that Mr. Pitt actually go-
verned against the majority of the House, and Mr. Fox was
perfectly justified in what he had then said ; but that having
been quoted, he might be allowed to state that Mr. Pitt was 11
times defeated. Votes of no confidence were carried against
him—addresses to the Crown for his dismissal were carried—mo-
tions against any dissolution were carried ; in fact questions were
carried against him, which, if now carried, would upset any Mi-
nistry. But what did Mr. Pitt say ? He was the great example
taken by those who followed in the school in which the Right
lion. Baronet was so illustrious apupil. The Hon. Baronet then
quoted several extracts from speeches of Mr. Pitt, delivered
at that period, to the effect that a Minister being appointed by
the prerogative of the Crown, was not constitutionally re-
movable by the House of Commons. Those opinions coming
from so great a man, in an emergency somewhat resembling
the present--(Laughter.) Certainly they had not been in
eleven minorities, nor had an address to the Crown for their
removal yet been carried, but these were the sentiments
of Mr. Pitt ; and would the Hon. Gentleman opposite say that
they were unconstitutional? What was to be the test?
Catholic Emancipation had been made a Cabinet
question by those who had all their lives opposed it, and, con-
sidering what they had seen of late, he would not be at all sur-
prised to find the Corn-laws made a Cabinet question.—( Hear,
hear, and laughter.) When they proposed measures that would
give relief to the manufacturing industry of the country, was
there any harm in having their whole scheme laid before the
country? Surely the agitation which existed was no fault of
theirs. It was a great question, and resolved itself into mono-
poly—a question whether they should by forming a scheme of
Import duties, relieve the industry of the country
without creating any additional taxation, or adding to the
present heavy burdens of the people. While the
people were suffering under the present system, while they were
paying enormously for bread, sugar, and timber, he coald not
wonder at the agitation which was going on ; and that was agi-
tation he was afraid that they must plead guilty ; at the same
time he must say that he had never seen any or great back-
wardness of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, or those connected
with them, in appealing to the passions of the people when it
suited their purpose: The Right Hon. Baronet now stated that
he would not give the country any statement of what his policy
would be, but in 1834, upon his accession to office, he did not
think it condescension on his part to issue the celebrated Tam -
worth Address, nor did he think it anything derogatory in
him to snake that address at the Mansion-house which
induced many to say that they saw no difference between
his principles and those of the Government he had displaced.
On another oceasion the Right Hon. Baronet had observed,
when hi; measures were opposed, that if his proposal was not
approved of he should like to hear what they proposed on the
other side. That something must be done, and what that was
he had as yet not heard, and that confirmed him in the con-
viction that the measures he proposed were the only ones that
could be adopted. Now her Majesty's Government were
equally convinced that, under the present circumstances, the
remedy they proposed was the only one that could be adopted.
He did not think the Right Hon. Baronet had avoided with
success the question that had been put to him as to what be
proposed in the present circumstances of the country, and if
the present Government was displaced had not the country a
right to ask what course the new Ministry meant to pursue ?
(Cheers.) Neither himself nor the House; nor the country,
could find any certainty or steadiness of purpose in the conduct
of the Right Hon. Baronet and his friends. They were
charged with division of opinion, but he begged to ask whether
they could not find among Hon.. Gentlemen opposite a most
extraordinary diversity of opinion, a divergence of opinion
such as was held or seen among Honourable Gentlemen
congregated under the same banner.—(Hear, hear.) lie saw
there some of the authors of the Reform Bill and its most vi-
rulent opposers; he saw some of the framers of the Reform
Bill, and close to them gentlemen who declared that such a
measure was destructive of the principles of the British Con-
stitution. The supporters of the Poor-law, and those who de-
clared it to be anti-National and anti-Christian ; he saw the
advocates of the Irish Church Temporalities Bill with those
who considered it the first blow at the Irish Church • he saw
also the authors of the gold standard and thosei who
declared it to be fraught with ruin and misery to the country ;
lie saw the denouncers of Orange lodges and the ex-Masters
and Grand Masters of Orange lodges; he saw the supporters
of the privileges of Parliament and those who considered these
privileges as so •much waste; he saw members of the High
Church, and Low Church, and New Church party ; in short
he saw men of every shade of opinion, from the advocates of
those principles which would put down all popular control,
down to the very gentleman who would ally himself with the
Chartists in order to secure his seat.—(Loud cheers.) With
such discordant elements the Right Hon. Gentleman had not
the least chance of carrying on the Government upon any de-
fined and settled principles. The Right Hon. Gentleman the
leader of the op,a,sa -arty, who had put the Government upon
its trial, notwithstanding his great talents, had in his
opinion very little prospect of success in his present attempt
to conduct the affairs of the country. The career of that Right
Hen. Gentleman had been one of ineffectual resistance and
ultimate concession. He had striven against public opinion,
and he had been beaten back—he had landed upon shoal after
shoal, which had sunk under him, and been swept away, and
he had hardly recollected onelingle opinion which the Right
Hon.• Gentleman had taken up that he had not been obliged
to abandon. It was, perhaps, the misfortune, and not the
fault of the Right Hon. Baronet; but it appeared to him that
he had generally come too late with his political discoveries.
He had shown himself deficient in one great quality of a
statesman, for he had not been able to read or foretell
the signs of the times. He could tell the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, that if he administered the affairs of the country, he
would not be able to do so upon the principles which he had
advocated in his early life. No, he could only administer
them upon the principles which the present Government ad-
vocated, and he did not see any very distinguishable ground
of difference between their policy and that which the Right
Honourable Baronet would be compelled to:pursue.—( Cheers. )
He hoped that in saying that much he was only using the pri-
vilege of a public man. The Right Hon. Gentleman was the
leader of a party, and wielded his power with certainly great
effect against the present Government, but he saw nothing in
his policy that could hold out the excuse for a change of Minis-
ters, or that would encourage the hope that whatever evils op-
pressed the country would be removed. The Noble Lord the
Member for North Lancashire had said that the present Go-
vernment was tottering to its fall ; but if that %Vero so he, (Sir
J. Hobhouse) would be content to fall with the Noble Lord
near him. He would be better satisfied to do that than to rise
to`any eminence surrounded by men lie had opposed in all the
earlier stages of his life, and supporting principles at variance,
in many respects, with those he had always opposed._( Hear. )
Whatever might be theresult of the present division, the Go-
vernment felt that they had done their duty in bringing for-
ward those measures. It appeared to them that the
time was arrived when the changes they proposed
were not only just, but inevitable._( Cheers.) They thought
they would have betrayed their duty to the country, to the
House of Commons, to their Sovereign, and to themselves, if
they did not run the risk of these measures in the first instance
receiving the sanction of Parliament, and he was certain that
the more they were examined into, the more they would be
approved.—( Cheers.) It was only part and parcel of the great
principles which had been propounded by the most eminent
statesmen in earlier days, which had been gradually developing
themselves, and would be brought to bear on other subjects
independently of commercial reform, and which he was certain
would be ultimately carried.—( Cheers.) He was as certain as
were satisfied that they had done their
he n-as of his own existence, that whatever g occur
these three measures would be eventually Carried and become
the law of the land ; and whatever the fate of the present Go-
vernment•
having been the authors of these measures, and in de-
termining in every constitutional; mode to persevere in carry-
ing them. —( Cheers. )
duty inmight
said the
Mr. B. D'ISRAELI
Member for Tamworth had been one of the most successful
be, they
Ministers that had ever held the reins of Government. lie
had never undertaken a measure that he had not carried to a
successful issue. He had not carried to the opposite benches
principles and propositions which he was not prepared to abide
,
by, and it was only when obstacles were thrown in the way
of his management of the affairs of the country, that he had
felt it his duty to resign office. The Right Hon.. Gentleman
hadi drawn
a somewhat infelicitous comparison
between the conduct of the Right Hon. Baronet, as regarded
the Catholic Relief Bill, and the proceedings of the present
Ministry ; but he denied that there was any analogy between
sres )he opinioconsidered
or. Diae what a happy, but what was in his
a uolitical question affecting the admission or non-admission of
a certain religious party into Parliament, and a financial mea-
sure such as had been
tfbrought e
confidence
displayedard by theby
tpresenthe
votes
o t
es
sf
Go-
vernment. It appeared to him that Sir Robert Walpole and
Lord North were the only Ministers, within the last century,
possessed Ali- f
of influence in
who were placed in the same predicament as the present
nisters ; but the wan
had just sat down, the the House of Commons compelleda them ultimately to resign.
The House of Commonsin!
„ld
tnhot forget that the part, at
present in power had exerecaits_weddhenatpower in violation of the
that House with insult, and
they now treated the
who •
opposite had com-
menced contempt. The
Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade,had given them some consolation
that they would have the prospect of a strong Government
if
House of Commons—they angled the
tsrthileigrhiUttPolfi'felrtlnhli.eoGOUC:entlSttlteilt:lllstai°:lnt:'e of
Commons w.
enicinedistbeyrsases
aeinatnegaitht oef office. The party

House of Lords—they attacked the Church—they at-
tacked the rich and they attacked the poor, and now
at the last moment, at one fell swoop, they attacked the colo-
nial, the commercial, and the agricultua al interest of the
country. Under those circumstances they .need not despair
that the prophetic assertions of the Right Hon. Gentleman
might not be falsified.
air. T. B. HOBHOUSE thought the Hon. Gentleman
who had just sat down ought to be the last toreproach Mi-
nisters with what he might conceive to 1)e inconsistent cons
duct. The Honourable Gentleman had found it convenient to
have a variety in his opinions which secured to him the
support of Tories and Radicals. When the Hon. Gentleman
went down to stand for Wycombe, he brought with him two
letters from parties of political sentiments. far different from
Those which he now embraced. Those letters were from the
Hon. Member for Kilkenny, and the Hon.. and Learned Mem-
ber for Dublin. The Hon. Gentleman sl could look to himself,
before he indulged in the reproafches which. he madeagainsallli-
lusters. The Hon. Gentleman had accused Ministers of un-
constitutional conduct. He (Mr. Ho'bhouse) denied that
their conduct was unconstitutional, and; insisted that the
unconstitutional proceedings rested with the party on
the other side of the House.—(Fear, hear. ) They
were animated by the unconstitutional wish to rob the
Crown of the exercise of its prerogative, and to deprive the
people of the free exercise of their opinions. What right, he
asked, had Gentlemen to stand up in that House, which ema-
nated from the people, and was the organ of their opinions, and
say that the people were not entitled to empress their opiniens
on subjects which so nearly concerned their interest. The
Hon. Gentleman opposite and the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir
Robert l'eel) endeavoured to give a narrow scope to this dis-
cussion. The present motion must lead either to the removal
of Ministers or to a dissolution. Whether it terminated
in their removal or in a dissolution, he felt that he ought to
take into consideration the whole of the conduct of Ministers.
Ile was opposed to the motion because it detracted from the
prerogative of the Crown, and the privileges of the people.
The Right Hon. Baronet in the course of his speech had de-
ified that the case of 174, to which he alluded, was analogous
to the present position of the Government; but he (Mr.
Hume) conceived that there did exist an analogy between
the position of Mr. Pitt in that day, that of the present
Government. If the Opposition followed up the pre-
cedent of 1784, and presented an address to the
Croon, the House of Commons would then be brought into,
collision with the Crown not for the cause of liberty but for
selfish interests—the House of Commons would then be stand-
ing up for monopoly and the Crown for liberty. He was also
opposed to this motion, because it was brought forward to
avoid discussion. The opposite party found it more difficult
to force monopoly down the throats of the people of England
than they had at first imagined. If they had arguments in
defence of the line they adopted which would be of
any avail they ought to wish for an opportunity of
discussing the question.—(Hear, hear.) They complained
that the Ministerial party excited the public mind about the
Corn-laws, and then desired during that excitement to go to a
general election. But if agitation prevailed in the country, it
was Hon. Gentlemen opposite that were to be charged with it.
The deficiency in the revenue, which Ministers were taunted
with prsducing, arose from what was a great benefit to the
country at large—the penny postage; and we were now
in such a state, that we must either levy new taxes,
or adopt measures similar to those propounded by
Government. Those were the reasons that influenced
him in giving his vote in support of her Majesty's Government,
Whether the present motion went against or in favour of them
he trusted that they would pursue their measure relative to the
Corn-laws, from which the party opposite had shrunk like
timid cowards.
Mr. D'ISRAELI explained in a few words, which were al-
most inaudible in the Gallery. The Hon. Gentleman was un-
derstood to say that he resided in Wycombe, and had not gone
down there with principles different from what he now pro-
fessed.
Mr. LIDI)ELL was surprised that Hon. Gentlemen on the
Ministerial side of the House should taunt that (the Conserva-
tive) side with attempting to encroach on the prerogative of
the Crown, when, but a few nights ago they were not present
to support that prerogative when an attempt to infringe on it was
made by the Hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. T. Duncombe).
The Right Hon. Gentleman should have been in his place on
that occasion to have supported the prerogative of the Crown.
—( Hear, hear.) He had heard the Right Hon. President of
the Board of Trade present the best defence that could be put
forward on behalf of the Government, and he must say that
the feebleness of that defence could only be rivalled by the fee-
bleness of the attack which he (Sir J. C. Hobhouse) had made
in return on that side of the House. The Right Hon. Baronet
admitted that if a Government did not possess the confidence
of the House it was bound on constitutional grounds to resign
office, and he further stated that himself and his colleagues
were prepared to set the example if they felt they were acting
against the opinions and feelings of the majority of the House.
He hoped the result of this division would leave no doubt on
that subject in the minds of the Hon. Baronet and his col-
leagues.—(Cheep.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had spoken
with triumph of the Government's having carried, in the pre-
sent Session, the principle of the Irish Registration Bills. He
thought the Right Hon. Gentleman could find but sorry satis-
faction in that._( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet
might plume himself, if he pleased, on the second reading
of that Bill having been carried by a majority of
five.—( Hear, hear, hear.) But what was the result ?
'lid they abide by that which they stated was the vital prin-
ciple of their Bill ? On the contrary, with their usual aban-
donment of their principles, did they not abandon it? Were
they not absolutely defeated upon the Bil ? And had they
not finally abandoned it, as they had done by many other mea-
sures they had brought. forward ?—( Cheers.) The Right
Hon. Baronet then went on to say that they had suffered no
defeat at all, or at least, all the defeat he would admit was,
that on the Sugar Duties. But had they not prepared them-
selves for future defeats in the present session on this mea-
sure? Were not all their future attempts at financial arrange-
ment rendered nugatory? The Noble Lord the Member fur
Lincolnshire had thought fit to vindicate himself from the
charge of inconsistency in the vote which ho meant to give
on the present occasion. The Noble Lord thought they should
not limit this question to such narrow grounds. Ile asked
the Noble Lord whether the Government themselves consi-
dered those to be narrow grounds, which had arrayed all the
important interests of the country, and on which they were
determined to resort to the extreme measure of dissolving Par-
liament.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord (Worsley) said that
the people would not desert the principles of Reform, on which
they had supported the Government. He thought the Noble
Lord would find that rather a stale argument, for whereas
those who once clamoured for the Bill, the whole
Bill, and nothing but the Bill, now professed
themselves utterly dissatisfied with it as an ultimate remedy,
and insisted upon the five points in the Charter. Unless,
therefore, the Noble Lord was prepared to join the Chartists,
he would gain little by his reform cry. So far as he (Mr.
Liddell) was concerned, he had never given a vote with a
clearer conviction of its necessity, than that which he should
give on the present occasion. Did the present Ministers pos-
sess the confidence of the House? Had they forgotten their
many defeats last Session, the number of which
'
escaped his memory ?—( Hear, hear.) What do they think of
the abandonment of their Bill for the amendment of the Poor..
laws, which the Noble Lord (Russell) hadstated were essential
to the welfare of the country ? How did the Noble Lord propose
to get rid of the inconvenience that would result from its aban-
donment? Did he mean the powers of the Commissioners should
expire without renewal ? Did they forget the abandonment of
their measure for the abolition of Church-rates, and the
destination of that great property to other purposes? Were
they not aware kof the result of the Church Leases' Bill?
Again, was not that an important point to which the Right
Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) had alluded for the reduction of
the postage? Was not this effected by the demands and re-
• prestn tenors of the Radical section of the House? All these
things resulted, from the weakness of the Government, and
from these things the House was called upon to defend them-
selves and the country, and thus at the eleventh hour the
Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth had become
too painfully sensitive, and he therefore stepped forward
for the interests of the people with a resolution which he ( Mr.
Liddell) trusted would have the effect of driving Hon. Gen-
tlemen opposite from office.—( Cheers.) Was it not the
true constitutional principle long acted upoi% in this country
that when the Administration had lost the confidence of the
House of Commons their course was either to resign office or
make an appeal to the country by advising the Crown to dis-
solve the Parliament.—(Ministerial cheers.) But when
ought that extreme measure to be adopted by;the Government ?
Only when there was a distinct expression on the part
of ,the country, and a distinct impression on the minds of
Ministers that the opinions of the country and the House of
Commons were at variance, and therefore that they ought
to appeal to the opinion of the country.—(Cheers. )
He did not think that any one Administration, though he had
not a very high opinion of the principles of the present Govern-
ment--( Hear, hear)—would justify a dissolution of Parlia-
ment for the purpose of agitation ; nor, unless they believed
the view of the country was with them. What was the simple
and natural course for Hon. Gentlemen opposite? They had
abandoned two important Government measures ; the adminis-
tration of the Government in Ireland, and their attempt to
change the representation of that country, and one great
financial project introduced by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer. After these defeats, could they say that they pos-
sessed the confidence of the House? The Right Hon.
Baronet (Sir R. Peel) had been taunted on the subject of the
Corn-laws; yet he put the question on most distinct and in-
telligihle grounds. The Government said that they advocated a
fixed duty ; the Right Hon. Baronet said that he maintained
the principle of a sliding scale. That was sufficient grounds
for confidence in the Right Hon. Baronet. Would any man
in the House venture to say that the present was the very best
plan that could be adopted I—(Ministerial cheers.) Attached
as he was to the present Corn-laws he did not so consider them,
and he lamented that the Corn-law proposed by Mr. Canning
had been altered. His Right Hon. Friend (Sir Robert Peel)
was too wise to enter upon a speech of details—,(Ministerial
cheers)—but he had spoken out on the principle. He (Mr.
Liddle) was surprised that the Noble Lord (Palmerston), the
colleague of Mr. Canning and Mr. Huskisson had not been
convinced by their arguments, and did not maintain their
policy. He feared that he had trespassed too long on the at-
tention of the House. He felt strongly the position in which
the Government was placed, and he felt convinced that it would
be for the best interests of the country that a change should
take place in public affairs. He was convinced that the Right
Hon. Baronet had not wrongly estimated the feelings of the
nation, and the circumstances of the time, in bringing forward
this motion, which, so far from being an invasion upon the
prerogative of the Crown, he believed would bring the Crown
and the people of this country more in harmony and unison
than they had been since the accession of her present Majesty
to the Crown, and that of the weakest and most imbecile Go-
vernment to office that had held it in the recent history of the
country.—(Cheers. )
Sir H. FLEETWOOD said that his only apology for ad-
dressing the House on so important a debate as the present
vies, that he had not trespassed, on any other occasion, on
their attention, during the Session. He represented besides a
large and suffering constituency, who felt the deepest interest
in the questions now under the consideration of Parliament.
The Hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. Wakley ) had expressed
his readiness to vote for the Opposition in that House, provided
they brought forward measures which would have his approval,
and he, too (Sir H. Fleetwood) would have been ready to
sacrifice, as it had often before been his fate to do, the interests
of party to the general interests of the people.—( Hear,
hear.) He was decidedly and conscientiously opposed to the
present Corn-laws ; as he did not wish to tax the
great necessary of life, and as he thought the present system
was prejudicial to all classes. He believed that the present
was a crisis such as had never before been known since the
British Constitution was in force. That was the only time
when they had before them the questions of a free or a re •
stricted trade. Gentlemen now for the first time advocated
the welfare of the community at large in opposition to privi-
leged bodies. That was, however, the time when they were
called upon to vote against the Administration I If the reso-
lution were to be carried, he believed it would lead to a
change of men, and not to a change of measures; and he felt
assured that many Hon. Gentlemen opposite would be dis-
posed to advocate principles similar to those introduced by
her Majesty's Government on the present occasion,--(Hear.)
The country was now labouring under the disadvantages of a
deficiency of revenue, and they were called upon to provide a
remedy for this evil. There were but two courses to be pur-
sued under the circumstances—either to increase the taxation,
or to diminish taxation, and make up for the deficiency by an
increased consumption. The Government had wisely chosen
the latter alternative, arid had endeavoured to meet the wants
of the country without adding to the burdens of the people. 1
He wished this question should be fully discussed before they
again appeared before their constituents. If, however; they

were to go before the country on such a vote as the pre-
Fent, they would not have had an opportunity of declass.
big their sentiments on the great subject now under
public consideration. 'I he question was not whether one
side or another should be in power; the real question
at issue was whether a new system of financial policy should
or should not be adopted. There were many gentlemen—and
he had spoken to some of them within the last six hours—who
approved of the commercial measures of the Government, but
stated that they had no confidence in those who brought them
iorn-ard.—( Hear, hear, on the Opposition benches.) Gentle.
men opposite were angry because the Government had fore-
stalled them. They said, hitherto when the Government has
been in difficulties, it has been in the habit of applying to us
for assistance, but now it has taken a step in advance
itself. It has proposed that which we had intended
to propose when we should come into office. We had
-not any idea that the Government possessed such spirit;
we must inter fore at once, and crush them with a vote of want
of confidence. Such was the conduct of Gentlemen opposite;
they approved of the measures as measures, but they disap-
proved of them because they were brought forward by her Ma-
jesty's Government. He had been rejoiced to hear the word
Constitutional in the Right Hon. Baronet's speech, and had
listened with attention to the Right Hon. Baronet's exposition
of constitutional principles ; but the Right Hon. Baronet, in-
stead ofspeaking of the old Constitution of King, Lords, and
Commons, had introduced a new constitutional law of Par-
liamentary usage. The Right Hon. Baronet might be right
that there were two constitutional laws, one of Queen, Lords
and Commons, and the other of Parliamentary usage ;
but if the doctrine of the Right Hon, Baronet, as to
Pas liamentary usage, were to, be carried out to its full extent,
they might perhaps come back to those scenes of former times
in which an ancestor of his (Sir H. Fleetwood) had acted a
part when the mace was ordered to be taken off the table of the
!-louse.--(Loud cheers and laughter from the Opposition
benches.) He would new allude to the distressed state of the
town which he represented; however they might differ in their
political opinions, when they Caine to consider the distress ex-
isting in the neighbourhood with which they were more imme-
diately connected they all felt like true hearted Englishmen.—
(Cheers.) He had been the other day speaking with a gen-
tleman of Conservative politics and a warm supporter of the
Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire, and he had
told that gentleman that in presenting a petition to that house
he (Sir H. Fleetwood) had stated that there were from 1,200
to 1,250 houses, which had been in the occupation of ma-
nufacturing labourers, untenanted in Preston, and that
gentleman had told him that he had not at all exaggerated
the number. The people were in the greatest distress, trade
was cramped, and the whole population was the most miser-
able condition. The manufacturers were sinking, and could
not contend with foreign countries. He had asked that gen-
tleman's opinion of the measures recently proposed by her Ma-
jesty's Government, and the reply was the measures are good in
themselves, but I cannot support them because I have no confi-
dence in the Government.—( Opposition cheers.) He (Sir
H. Fleetwood) always looked to the value of the measures
themselves, and, therefore' he should support them, because
he was satisfied they were for the benefit of the country. He
now came to the question of the Pour-law, which had attracted
general :attention. It had been made the foundation of re-
peated attacks upon her Majesty's- Government ; fur his own
part he had always voted against the New Poor-law, but he
did not comprehend how it could be made the ground of a
party attack on the Government, when the Right Hon. Baronet
opposite had uniformly voted with the Noble Lord in its favour.
Allusion had been made to the recent election of an Hon.
Friend of his as tha representative of the town of Nottingham.
—(Loud Opposition cheers.) Now it so happened that at a
meeting on the subject of the Poor-laws which he had at-
tended in the winter, allusion had been made to the different
way in which the law was administered at Bradford, and It
Nottingham. At Bradford out-door relief was afforded, while
at Nottingham it was refused, and the law was administered in
all its strictness. When he asked the reason of this difference
being made between towns apparently similarly situated, he
was told that at Bradford the people had rioted, while at Not-
tingham they had remained quiet. He could only say that
knowing those circumstances whatever gentleman had gone to
Nottingham, as the opponent of the new. Poor-law, he would
almost have ventured to have secured him his election. That
contest was not a triumph over her Majesty's Govern-
ment; it was a triumph over the new Poor-law.—
( Hear.) He rejoiced that the Government had determined
to give up the Poor-law, and to bring forward the Corn-law.
He was convinced, and any Hon. Gentleman connected with
Lancashire would bear him out in tv•e ass rtion, that at the en-
suing election the question both of the Corn-law and of the
Poor-law would be strictly canvassed. —(Hear, hear.) There
was no man of liberal politics who entertained the least fear
for his scat except as regarded the question of the Poor-law.
He thought the Noble Lord had committed a great error in di.
riding the Bill into two parts.—(Loud cries of " Questing,
question !" in which the voice of Mr. Round was particularly
audible.) He was not going away from the question. The
Right Hon. Baronet, in the course of his speech, had particu-
larly alluded to the Poor-law in connexion with the Corn-
law, and he was convinced that at every election throughout
the country questions would be put to the candidates as to
their sentiments regarding the Poordaw and the Corn-law.
—e• Question !") With regard to the fixed duty of Bs. pro-
posed to be levied on corn, he would at once concede that in times
of scarcity such a duty could not be levied—( Cheers from the
Opposition)—but it struck him that the rate of duty was a
matter of minor consiceration. Our manufacturers sent their
goods to foreign countries, and could not receive their corn in
exchange, because, in consequence of the present mode of im-
posing the duty, it was impossible .to form an idea of what the
price of corn might be when it arrived in this country.
Now a fixed duty would enable them to calculate upon
some degree of accuracy at what price he could sell the corn
which he might barter for his manufactures so as to enable
him to meet his bills. If he were speaking as an agriculturist
to his brother agriculturists be would say rather seek to have
these undue prohibitions under which you 'yourselves labour
removed than seek undue protection for your corn. They
were prohibited from growing tobacco ; if they had damaged
wheat they were obliged to sell that unsound corn for
the consumption of the people ; because they weie
prohibited by law from malting it, therefore speaking to the
agriculturists, he would say rather seek to free yourselves from
the restrictions which affect you than to enforce restrictions
on the public at large.—( Hear, hear.) Those had been his
sentiments long before he had had the honour of a scat in
that House, and he had always said to his farmers,
that, if any alteration were to be made in the
Corn-laws, not that, he would reduce his
rents—(lronical cheers, and cries of " Oh, oh," from the
Opposition)—Gentlemen had better wait for the conclusion
of the sentence—not that he would reduce his rents, but that he
would take the lease of the farmer's hands, and take the whole
of his stock at the value of it before any alteration in the Corn-
laws took place ; and he was perfectly ready to do so, and he
wished it to go forth to the public and his tenantry that he
was, in the event of any alteration in the Corn-
laws, perfectly willing at any time to do so. He be-
lieved that in that House they were too much accustomed to
consider measures only with reference to party views and party
tactics, but a time was coining when they would all have to
meet their constituencies, and to account for their votes, not as
they might affect party tactics, but as they had affected the ge-
neral interests of the country. That was au ordeal through
which he was prepared to pass, and from which he hoped
all the Members would not shrink. The Hon. Baronet
opposite had referred to cases in which,' where there was a
majority of 4, 10, and 37, in favour of the Government, they
had resigned, on the supposition that they did not possess the
confidence of the country. But though the present Ministry
might Hot have a majority in the House of Commons, it did
not follow that they did not possess the confidence of the coun-
try.—( Hear, hear.) Ile did not desire to see a dissolution
until the subject of the Corn-laws had been fully discussed.
When Hen. Members had had an opportunity of expressing
their sentiments on that subject, then would be the proper
time for a dissolution. In nearly all the questions which had
recently been discussed in that House' the question of food for
the suffering people had been introduced ; it was right, there-
fore, that should receive the fullest discussion. If the proposal
of the Government were not founded upon right principles, it
would meet with the fate which usually attended measures of
that description. Let her Majesty's Ministers boldly state the
principles by which they were guided, and the country would
not fail to support them. Their motto at the next election
should be " Anti-Monopoly."
Air. WALTER said his reasons for supporting the resolution
which had been proposed were different from any which had
been stated to the House. He did not altogether disapprove
of the financial schemes proposed by the Government, but he
thought that no beneficial result could be expected from them
because of the hasty and abrupt manner in which they were
introduced. Those measures were not deeply rooted in the
minds of those who brought them forward; they were, in fact,
the promises of a political death-bed repentance.—(Cheering.)
It was on account of the general conduct of Ministers that he
would vote for the resolntion. Passing by their half-abortive
infliction of the rural police, and their attempt to stretch uncon-
stitutionally the principles of that House, he rested his chief
opposition to them on account of their Poor-law Bill. None of
the promises made in reference to this Bill had been fulfilled.
It was stated by the Whig Chancellor of the day that no one
entertained the notion of separating husband from wife, and
parent from child. That, like every other promise, had been
violated. The Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire
had accused the Government of .setting numbers to war
against property. That was the effect of the Bill to which he
referred ; but it was property that first commenced the attack ;
and whatever Administratisn would come into power, if they
supported that Bill u the present Government had done, they
would expose themselves to the same condemnation.
Mr. MACAULAY said he congratulated the Hon. Bozo-
net upon obtaining a new ally, who withdrew his confidence:
from Government, en the grounds which had been stated.
Both on the privilege question, and in relation to the Poor-
laws, the Hon. Baronet had given the Government his decided
aßleaiyrgcehwodtrioiswHut
resolution
ounnai
support.—( Hear, hear.) He must say that he had viewed
Pcee thoughtosesapdi
spirit
:yell
ofott i 1r
tdteoh
with some surprise the
ttrmosersawootwhlt resolution owthnoaa
spy:at
Constitu-
tion. general
oanro. n
It
proposition
o lightnas.
like this • that their course was inconsistent with the spirit
of the 'Conatitution. Great inconvenience might possibly
result from it. Even if
,he fully agreoil with the Right
Honourable Baronet in thinking the present Adminis-
tration unworthy of the confidence of the House, he
mitiioshchs_ievthoue s
on deogi
thatproposition.at her Majesty's Government
did not sufficiently possess the confidence of the House, to en-
able them to carry through measures which they considered
highly important ; the other, that the continuance of a Mini-
stry so situated, was contrary to the 'spirit f
the Constitu-
tion. On the latter •
point he would join issue with the Right
Honourable Baronet, on the grounds of reason and of usage.
First as to the reason of the case. It was, in his judgment,
highly inexpedient to affirm a state of things to be contrary
to the spirit of the Constitution which might be inevitable, and
from which there might be no escape. Such .a state of things
he believed to exist at the present time. Let him suppose
that there were 320 strong and zealous Tories, and 320 equally
strong and zealous partizans of a Liberal policy, and that be-
tween these two great parties there arose seventeen or
eighteen gentlemen who were averse to strong opinions on
either side, and inclined to oppose any measure which was
strongly imprinted with the character of party. Under those
circumstances, he would like to know how, consistently with
the resolution, any Government could be carried on ?—( Hear. )
Was that an impossible, or was it an improbable case ? Had
they not had it distinctly before them? Take the question of
the Irish Registration. That was a question of great im-
portance to the public welfare, and it would hardly be disputed
f
that it was a question on which depended the constitution
ofo
the House,—it was a question on which depended thicikd modeit was
returning one-sixth of the Members of that House,
were a question on which the great parties in that House
di-
vided. The Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire
had brought (forward a measure which they on that side the
House held to be most pernicious,
and the Government had
brought forward-a measure, which the Noble
House
Lord, no doubt,
thought was equally se. T 1 e other side of the House considered
that the measure introduced by Government approached
almost to Radicalism, while the measure which had
been introduced by the Noble Lord the Member for
North Lancashire was considered by those who sat on his side
of the House as calculated to put an end to elections altogether.
What was the history of things on this subject ? Only last year
the Noble Lord, the Member for North Lancashire, brought in
his measure. They on that side of House opposed it. The
Noble Lord had even got the Bill into Committee, and he was
beaten on a question which was the essence of the Bill. This
year
the Government had proposed their plan ; it was intro-
duced, and by a small majority it was carried into Committee,
and on the first division they were beaten. Now, he would

EV.ENING

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Commonst aoasnsnaecmee ?
Minister I
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s such uotchiheso______ —.......5. r ..., •
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ask might not this occur with respect to other ti-easures o - ,
nitlhitgiwnhLv-eenxdoietleehad,te,forditohwnima:
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taakviitse4,lll4.balanTeheed
Right Hon. Baronet had called on the House dechire,that- - ---
the course pursued by the Government was con Fts e t_sea;l sA'i N
Constitution. He denied that the course li3,;bW' Rlti ''' -- -- IL
'
pursued .. , t
place..
Hon. Baronet was consistent with usage. The Right Hon.
Baronet, in his speech, had confounded that want of confi-
denee which appeared in the resolution with that want uf ceri-
fidenee which, if a Minister had it not, he ought not to remain
in office. The Right Hon. Baronet had stated that lie would'
go back to the time when the house of Hanover first ascended
the throne • and having done so, he would ask whether it had
been ever known that a Ministry had retained office after hav-
ing had such severe defeats as the present Ministry. He sett
only refer to the times of Lord Stanhope and Lord Sunderland.
Was there ever a mere important measure brought into Par-
liament than Lord Sunderland's Peerage Bill ? That Bill was
recommended by George the First frum the throne,
.and was
hrown out by a large majority. But did Lord Sunderland
resign? Certainly not. And he (Mr. Macaulay) had no
doubt that if that Noble Lord had been told that he must re-
sign, he would asked to whom he was to rosins.
—(Hear, hear.) ,So with the present Ministers. To
whom, he would ask, were they to resign ?—( Hear, hear.) Mr.
Pitt in 1786 did not resign although he was beaten on the ques-
tion of the fortifications. The resolution of Mr. Pitt on that
subject was to this effect, that the foitifying of certain dock-
yards was an object of essential importance to the sarety of this
country. On that question Mr. Pitt was beaten, and imme-
diately upon that he stood up in the House and said, " I takethis
as the decision of the House," but did lie tender his resignation ?
certainly not, and it was clear those Members who opposed him
never entertained the notion that he Was called upon to resign.
Supposing such a resolution as the present to have been brought.
forward, what would Mr. Pitt have said? He would have
said, " I consider it an important measure, and absolutely
essential to the welfare of the country ; but with regard' the
principles of my administration, I am satisfied I ha4V the
confidence of the country, and therefore I shall not resign."
During the administration of Lord Castlereagh, did Mr.
Tierney, and the other great men who 'are associated
with him, call upon the Government to resign when
they were beaten on any important occasion ?—(Hear. )
Certainly not, nor did they ever think of telling them that it
was at variance with the spirit of the Constitution to hold-
office after they had been defeated. Now all these instances
that he had adverted to took place at a time before the Re-
form Bill came into operation, a measure which he was sure
all must admit, had effected a very great change. Then came
the Reform Bill, which swept assay 300 or 400 gentlemen
who represented only themselves, and they werereplaced by 200
,or 300 gentlemen whoh ad large constituencies to account to,
and therefore no Governuient could expect to be successful
with any measure they recommended. Under the Reform Bill,
when parties were so nearly balanced, if the resolution of the.
Right Hon. Baronet was laid down as constitutional law it
would be impossible for any Government .M carry on the admi-
nistration of affairs—(Cheers)—and if the Right Hon. Baronet
came into power to-morrow there would be very few months in
a session that he would not be reminded of it in a very unplea-
sant way. As lie understood the constitutional law it was this,
that if the House either directly or indirectly declared
its want of confidence in a Ministry they mast either retire
or resort to a dissolution. But he was of opinion that there
might be legislative measures which a Government might not be
able to carry, and vet it would not become their duty to retire.
On both sides of the House he hoped it would be assented to
that many ways might be found to test the question then under
discussion without putting ou record in the Journals of the
House such an unwise, uncertain, and, as he believed, mis-
chievous_proposition as that moved by the Right Hon. Ila•
ronet. Up to that time the Ministers were perfectly jus-
tified in the course they had taken, for they fully
believed that their general policy commanded the as-
sent of a majority of the House. Up to that period
they had reason to believe that they could administer the Go-
vernment with satisfaction tai themselves and benefit to the
country. It was bet little more than one year since the
House refused to entertain such a motion, and during that
time had the foreign policy, he would ask, been that of a weak
Government?__( Loud cheers.) He would ask whether, if the
Ministry was possessed of a majority rich as Lord Grey's Go-
vernment commanded of about 250, could it be wished that,
England could speak in bolder or nobler language than had
been used by her Foreign Minister, ?—( Hear, hear, and loud
cheers.) Let the present Government give the reins o
power into whose hands they might, they would kayo
the political influence of England abroad minupaired.
her name respected, and her arms untarnished. ( Loud.
cheers.). Then, with respect to our domestic policy ; two yea,
ago we had been threatened with one of the most serious out-
breaks of the many, which had threatened, since the French
Revolution; but his Hon. Friend, who was then Secretary
for the Home Department, had succeeded in crushing that out-
break without the right of meeting being invaded, without
any violation:of the Common law, without the Habeas Corpus
Act having been suspended, without one right of the people
beines placed in abeyance. The old constitutional tribunals o f
England alone were appealed to, and the Government,
which was now accused of weakness-4 Government
which, on many occasions, could scarcely command
a majority of two in that House—freed the country
from those evils without suspending or violating the principles
of the Constitution.—( Loud laughter.) He would allude, but.
briefly, to one other part of the policy of the Government,
namely, the administration of Ireland.—(Cheers.) On that
subject he was able to appeal to a distinct vote of the HOUS4'.
Weak as the Ministry was in that House, if they were able to
administer the foreign policy with honour—if they were able
to put down discontent at home without invading any prin-
ciple of liberty—if they were able to govern Ireland
in tranquillity, were they not justified in retaining
office, although they were unable to carry every
measure they proposed? It was his opinion a crisis had,
arisen. They were under the necessity of providing for a
large deficiency caused not by any act which should deprive
them of the confidence of the liouse. but caused by an increase
of those establishments that was necessary for the honour, the
dignity, and the security of the country—caused also by the
remiesion of a tax which pressed upon the commerce of the
conntry, which chilled the best affections—a tax the repeal ,f
which was called for and supported by all parties, and which
was supported by many lion. Members opposite. Money was
wanted in the Exchequer—orders were wanted by our manu-
r
facturers ; and they were of opinion that both objects might be
attained by a removal of the restrictions which pressed on trade.
Would they supply those defects by relieving the people from
some of their burdens, or by adding to them, and by providing
.new markets for their industry ? With these views it was
That the budget had been resolied upon. He had said in that
House before, and he repeated it, that he never expected that
the whole of these measures would be carried through the
House, but he did say that lse anticipated that the sugar and
timber monopolies would be broken up, and that' the
Corn-laws would be placed upon a better footing.
although lie did not anticipate a majority for
the proposition's. The plan had failed, and although be ob-
jected to the resolution of the Right Hon. Gentleman, his own
deliberate opinion was (although they might not adhere to
every part of the plan) that the principle was one by which.
the Queen's Ministers should stand or fall.—(Loud cheers. )
At the same time when he considered the deep importance •
the question ; when lie considered the support they expected
to receive from those who were deeply interested in the ques-
tion, when he considered that the grounds on which they 4ta,3
been opposed had sunk from under the feet of ,
Hon. Gentleman opposite—(Cheers, and cries of " Oh, oh")
—when he saw with what contempt the attempt to mix up the
question of humanity with it had been received—( Loud cheers. )
The Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool was dissatisfied
with the manner in which he had referred to his resolution,
but would he submit that resolution to the anti-slavery
societies of England ?—( Hear, and cheers.) Had he not seen
the pretence on which it was based hooted out of Exeter-hall ?
(Renewed cheers.) lie believed it was un iversali y
looked upon in one light by all parties in England, and
that the people would no longer allow the sufferings of the; se-
greet to be used a pretext for grinding the people of Engiand
—(Much cheering)—and having seen that cry put down by the
influence of truth arid reason, his belief was that under all the
circumstances they were bound not to shrink from taking every
legitimate and constitutional means for obtaining the de-
cision of the people generally upon these important ques-
tions.—(Hear, hear.) It had been said that they should
not dissolve upon a question on which there was so
much excitement.. On what question then should they
dissolve?—( Hear, hear.) As regarded agitation, he believed
there had been comparatively little on the present question.
The Right Hon. Baronet surely would not prevent the people
from agitating among themselves the merits of a question which
came home to their pockets and interests—he would not surely
prevent their reading, and writing, and conferring, and peti-
tioning on the question, and returning such Members
as would carry out their views ?—(Hear, hear, hear.) He'
was not deeply read in the papers of the day, but ho declares!
he had not seen attributed to any peeson, throughout the
whole course of what the Right Honourable Baronet was s
'rig to
pleased to call agitation, a single word referring
could not
any appeal to physical force. As to discussions they
interdict and discourage that without interdictiog and _
discou-
raging every principle of freedom and discussion. Ifs people,t'if___
were prepared to defy corruption and aristocratic .1' 'm'
these
(Oh, WO—lf they were prepared to resist and overtly."
easy
corrupt influences, in that case their task would be al.' ,_____
one ; but if the result were different, the people would }rave
no reason to find fault with tho Government, who liftat and
' "
other ambition than to maintain fairly, through evil report'
all,.
good report, those principles which they had ever advanced l
administered.—(Loud cheers.)
On the motion of Mr. SYDNEY HERBERT, the debatsr
was then adjourned till to-morrow.
ST. ALBAN'S ELECTION.
. Mr. WYNN wished to know whether the Hon. Gentle-
men who sat on the St. Alban's Election Committee t
_o
fit to submit to the House measures for the prosecution ft
gross perjury which took place on that occasion.
,
Mr. MILDMAY observed, in answer to the question of ti I'
counsel gave up the cam'
Hon. Gentlematiopposite, that the
in
and that impert,
before it was completely gone through;
f' the nature allude 6 ' 0.
state of the proceedings, no measure o
by the Hon. Gentleman could be fairly brought before the
House.

Mr. WYNN said, when positive attemptsd were sworn to by
to institute ap rosecutinii
two witnesses, it was sufficient gun
for perjury, and put the matter inracourse of investigation; and
he
if no other Member would do so, _ e would binwelf oring forsvp,r4
a motion for the prosecution the firstopportnnitybe could seize
on,
without interfering in the question before the House.
Mr. MILDMAY made some observations respecting the evi.
dente before such Committee, which we did not catch in the
letter his observations. We understood the Hon.
Gen-
tlemanpart
tort os f
say, that if the Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr.
Wynn) thought it necessary to proceed with the matterunder consideration, he (Mr. Mildmay) would render him all
the assistance in his power to bring the guilty ,persons to pu-
nishment
Mr. C. BULLER rose amidst cries of " Order, order,"
a Chair, chair," and much confusion. The Hon. Gentleman
was proceeding to say that he never witnessed such a thing in
that House—an Hon. Gentleman to get up on the other side
and make a one-sided party speech.—(Cries of " Questions"
Chair, chair," " Order, order," and much confusion.) In
the midst of which,
The SPEAKER said that the Right ,Hon. 3Gentleman
(Mr. Wynn) had pat a question to a Member of the St. Al-
ban's Election Committee. That question had been anestered,
and the course now pursued by the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Buller) was therefore irregular.
Mr. C. BULLER rose, and was met by loud cries from
the Opposition benches of " Order, order; chair, chair,"
which lasted for a considerable time. At length
Sir R. INGLIS rose, and said, that since he was in that
House he never knew any person but one to resist the decision
of the Speaker; and he was sorry that a gentleman whore
he called his friend should be the second. When the Speaker
had distinctly stated that there was no question before the
House, it was out of order that any Gentleman should persist
in addressing the House.
Mr: C. BULLER said, if the House would just allow him
—( Cries of Order, order," from the Oppositioribenches.
The SPEAKER said when lie decided that point, and the) House acquiesced in that decision, if the Hon. Gentleman pro-
ceeded in the course which was declared to be irregular, it was in
the highest degree disorderly.
Mr. C. BULLER again arose amid loud cries of "Chair
and order," from the same quarter. The confusion. was at
length put an end to by
. Lord JOHN RUSSELL moving the Order .9f the Day,
when
Mr. C. BULLED rose and said that the instant the Speaker