The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-02 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, MARCH 2, 1847.

difficulty. But, with respect to the future, he enter•
tained a very deep anxiety, and it would be most satis•
factory to him to know if her Majesty's Government
would he able to offer him some explanation upon the
subject. He understood that it was their intention to close
the relief committees as soon as possible, relying on the
Destitute Persons Bill, and upon private and public
works, for the relief of the people. There were
no less than 564,000 persons in Ireland who em-
ployed no labourers, but who cultivated their own
land themselves. Their whole substance depended upon
the potato, and when that failed they had no money to
purchase food; nor, unless they were taken from the
cultivation of their own land, would they have anything
to give in exchange for it. He would wish, therefore,
the Noble Marquis opposite to state what arrangements
would be made relating to the supply of seed for the en-
suing harvest.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM said the question no doubt

was one of great importance. Th-e transition state
from the employment of the people under the Labour-
rate Act to the measures proposed to be submitted by
the Government was one of great consideration. Still
he thought, under the circumstances, the difficulty
would net be so great as was apprehended. With regard
to the supply of seed, it was undoubtedly important
that it should be forthcoming; still he considered it would
be dangerous for the Government to interfere and supply
the seed that might be required. It would be much better
to leave the matter in the hands of private individuals.
—(Hear, hear.) But a more important question they
had to consider, was whether after all, the measures of
the Government would be adequate to meet the crisis !
This was a question of far more importance than the
one which the Noble Earl had referred to, and he
begged their Lordships, he begged the other House of
Parliament, he begged the people of England generally
seriously to consider whether the measures would be
adequate, and whether the economy which seemed to
pervade the other House of Parliament, and prevailed
out of doors, would not prove, instead of economy,
prospective extravagance, and lay the foundation of
great expenditure in the future. He wished this country
would come to their senses upon this great question, as
he was sure they were not in their senses upon the
question. They did not understand the real nature of
the evil, and how deeply it might afflict them. Ile
thought that England was taking an improper view of
this question, and knew not the exact nature of the im-
pending evil.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE considered that it
would have been utterly impossible and useless to have
called the Parliament together in the course of the
autumn to devise remedies for the calamity. And under
these circumstances her Majesty's Government thought
that it would be better to defer seeking for this indem-
nity, which would be more conveniently obtained at the
usual meeting of Parliament ; and when they did meet
then not a day was lost in seeking for that indemnity.
Most grateful was he to Parliament and to the
country to find that when they were called together there
was such an expression of good will as that which
had been manifested on both sides of both Houses,
and he was pal titularly glad to find that there was such
an expression of good feeling, and that when this
Bill was introduced that it was not likely to meet
with much opposition. With respect to the ob-
servations which had fallen from the Noble Lord
(Lord Monteagle), who had been exceedingly anx-
ious that the provisions of the Drainage Act of last
session should be carried out, but then he should recol-
lect that there were two sides to be considered, that it
might not be in the power of the tenant to obtain the
advantages to which be was entitled. Then two Noble
Earls (Earl Fitzwilliam and the Earl of Ellenberough)
who had followed the Noble Lord had complained that
sufficient forethought had not been shown in providing
for the distresses of Ireland; but it should be
recollected that no man had ever thought of,
or anticipated, the extent of this distress, and of
the result of the calamity which had befallen Ireland.
The importance of forwarding seed could not be over-
rated,' but the Government felt it would be utterly
impossible for them to undertake the sowing of the
whole country.—(Hear.) Even the proposition of the
Government to allow a certain sum for purchasing seed
for particular localities, had, instead of affording facili-
ties of sowing the whole country with seed, the
effect of increasing the price of seed and preventing
those facilities which the Government considered the
grant of 50,000/. would have opened up. He had
always considered that the plan of reeking advances to
the landlords would be most salutary, as they would be
thereby enabled to improve their estates, and conse-
quently to employ great numbers of their people. It
was not for him to say what advantage.s they
might confer upon themselves by such
.aid from
the Government, but it struck him forcibly that
the greatest advantages might be made to accrue
to all parties. He hoped that the spring would
bring a demand for labour in Ireland, and that to that
extent the distress of the people would be removed. He
did not say that this and other means were fully ade-
quate to meet the emergency, but they could not fail to
contribute much to the alleviation of the distress. Ile
could not bear too high testimony to the way in which
the Parliament and the country came forward to relieve
the exigencies of Ireland ; but it should be borne in
mind that it was not a question of money, but of food; of
the salvation of a whole people.
The Bill was then read a second time.
PRISON DISCIPLINE.—TRANSPORTATION.
Earl GREY laid two Bills on the table, the second
reading of which he stated he should propose on Friday
next. The first had reference to the existing system of
transportation, and to amend the laws respecting the
custody of prisoners, and the second propok,ed to alter
the management of Millbank and Parkhurst prisons.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 1.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.

SECOND READINGS.
The following Bills were read a second time:—
Aylsham and North Walsham Railway,
Caledonian Railway (Branches from the Clydesdale Junc-
tion Railway to the Douglas and Lesmahagow Mineral
Fields, and to Strathavon).
Caledonian Railway (Extension of Motherwell branch
of Clydesdale Junction Railway to Auchinheath
Mineral Field, with Branches to the Wishaw and
Coltness Railway, Canderside, and Hamilton).
Caledonian Railway (Purchase or Lease of Wishaw and

Coltness Railway).
Caledonian and Dumbartonshire Junction Railway
(Deviations between Duntocher Lime Works and
Bowling, &c.)
Colchester, Stour Valley, Sudbury, and Halstead Rail-
"Y (Extension from Lavenhant to Bury St. Ed-
mund's).
Colchester, Stour Valley, Sudbury, and Halstead Rail-
way (Extension to Melford, Lavenham, and Claro).
Colchester, Stour Valley, Sudbury, and Halstead Rail-
way (Stour Navigation Purchase).
Duffryn Llynvi, and Forth Cawl and Lynvi Valley
Ruilways Amalgamation,
Eastern Union and Iladleigh Junction Railway (Salo

to ,he Eastern Union Railway Company).
East Lothian Central Railway.
Guildt4d Extension and Portsmouth and Fareham
Rail way.
Herne Bay and Canterbury Junction Railway.
Ipswich and Bury St. Edmund's Railway (Extension to
East Dereham and to Aylsham).
Ipswich and Bury St. Edmund's Railway (Branch from
Ipswich to Woo 'bridge).
Leominster Can4l Navigation Sale.
London and South-Western Railway.
Ne vry and Enniskillen Railway.
New Zealand Company.
R,yston and liitchin Railway (Extension from Royston
to Cambridge, &c.)
Royston and Hitchin Railway (Sale or Lease.)
Stratbtay and Breadalbane Extension Railway.
Taw Vale Railway and 1)oek (Deviations and Bideford
and South Molton Branches).
Wilsontown, Morningside, and Coltness Railway
(Branches to Benhar Coal-works and Edinburgh and
Glasgow Turnpike Road).
The sec,,nd reading of the Ambergate, Nottingham,
and Boston, and Eastern Junction Railway (Alteration
of Line and Branches to Nottingham) was postponed
mad' the 15th inst.; and the Shrewsbury and Chester
for a week.

THE NEW ZEALAND BILL.
Sir R. 11. INGLIS complained of this Bill being
placed in the list of private Bills. It was one of
such importance that it should have been placed in a more
prominent position for the consideration of the House.
He thought it was not a Bill which ought to pass as a
private BilL It gave large powers to the New Zealand
authorities—powers which might be necessary for the
local legislature, but a Bill containing such provisions
was not snob a Bill as ought to pass through as a matter
of form and of course. He hoped the Government would
give it their attention before it came on for a second
reading.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the Bill belonged to another
department, but the Government would certainly give it
their attention.
Mr. HUME said that was a proper opportunity to
call the attention of the Government to the principle
adopted by the House last session, It was then deter-
mined that no private Bill should be read a first time
until it had been introduced under some public depart-
ment, as that would afford some security that the public
interests would not be abused.
The Bill was then read a second time and committed.
POOR RELIEF (IRELAND).

Mr. SHAW gave notice that, in Committee upon the
Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill, he would move a number of
amendments.
RATING TENEMENTS BILL.

Colonel T. WOOD gave notice that he would post
pone the second reading of the Rating Tenements Bil
from Wednesday next to Wednesday fortnight.
DAY OF NATIONAL FAST AND HUMILIA

line, within ten miles on each side of the raiwaY•
On the Dundalk and on the Carlow Railways the
same thing was to be seen. On the lane line
there was not one Englishman employed, .ixcept,
perhaps, an overseer. The Right Hon. Gentleman the
Secretary for Ireland told them a few nights age that the
prosperity of Ireland next year depended 01 the la
bourers being employed during the next six weeks in
agricultural operations. He did not state, however,
that draining would commence on a large scale in
the months of April or May. Now, he (Mr.
Collett) could state that the baronies of Irland were
ready to expend hslf a million on railways,and to em-
pl,py all the able-bodied labourers in the collar).- The
only mode in which Government proposel to employ
them was drainage, but he had no greatconfidence i❑
that. If, therefore, only thirty thensand persons
were to be employed from May .o September,
he thought it would be the means of con-
ferring incalculable advantages on the country
He con,idered that her Majesty's Government had not
taken the proper steps in reference to this question.
They ought not to have trusted to mere anonymous
authority on this question ; and he, fa one, would have
been ready to afford them all the information which he
possessed.
ARMY ESTIMATES.
On the motion for going into Committee of Ways and
Means,
Sir DE LACY EVANS moval an humble ad-
dress to her Majesty, with a view of bringing
under consideration the hardship and inconsis-
tency of a warrant, or regulation issued from the
War-office, dated May, 1846, whereby certain general
officers, whose duties might have been limited to home
or peace service, were deemed eligible to the minimum
pay of their rank; also for a copy of any representa,
Lions which might have been made to the chief military
' authority, to the Treasury, Secretary-at-War, or other
department, in reference to the inconvenient conse-
' 9uences to good order and discipline, resulting from an
Inequality in respect to ration stoppages from troops
serving in the colonies.
Sir H. DOUGLAS called the attention of the House
to the case of medical officers.
POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. P. SCROPE, on the motion that the House do go
into Committee upon this measure, said he would trespass
upon the attention of the House with a few observations.
The rent of Ireland last year amounted to 15,000,000/.,
and yet upon the average the poor-rates only amounted
to 7i-d. in the pound. Under these circumstances, he
thought some information ought to be given to the coun-
try upon the subject. In the union of Castle Bar the case
was still stronger. There tho per tentage did not
amount to more than fourpence-halfpenny in the pound,
and the guardians having collected that amount, shut
the doors upon the starving poor and refused to collect
any more. _ _

Mr. LABOUCHERE would not accept the invitation
of the Hon. Member to enter now upon a discussion of the
poor-law, because the House would have ample oppor-
tunity on a future occasion to enter fully into that subject.
He must confess he never entertained the opinion that
whatever poor-law should have been introduced into
Ireland could have ever met the emergencies of the pre-
sent period, and it was altogether a miscalculation that
they could have framed a poor-law which could entirely
relieve the distress of that country in its present circum-
stances.

WAYS AND MEANS.
LOAN OF EIGHT MILLIONS.

The House then resolved itself into a Committee of
Ways and Means.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then rose
and said, in deference of my friends behind me, and in accor-
dance with my own feelings, I rise to make a statement in re-
ference to the subject of finance which I brought before the
House the other evening. And here I must express how sen-
sibly I felt the kindness which the whole of the House did me
that evening.—( Hear, hear.) Sir, on that occasion I stated
that in order to meet the existing exigencies, I must make an
extraordinary demand on the Treasury of this kingdom, and
that I must have recourse to a loan of 8,000000/. It gave me
great pleasure that the House had confirmed that proceeding
with their sanction. I have now to announce that an arrangement
has been entered into whereby I shall be able to obtain that
loan, and I will move the House to pass cer-
tain resolutions confirmatory of that arrangement.
It has not been the practice of the House that the Chancellor
of the Exchequer mentioned his intention of contracting a loan.
It would be recollected that when the last loan was contracted
for, an Act of Parliament had been passed authorising the loan
generally. I thought it best, however, to mention it to the
House, and I have since felt that the course which I then
adopted was the best—it was certainly the most respectful to
this House. After considering it, I am sensible that the course
I have taken has been the most advantageous that could have
been adopted. I had made every necessary inquiry about the
possibility of raising the money, and everybody universally told
me that I should have no difficulty in obtaining the sum. I
have found this to be the case, by determining
to grant interest at three per cent., consolidated stock
This course we have adopted on the present occasion, and
accordingly I announced to those gentlemen, who did me the
honour of waiting upon me, that I would give consolidated
stock, and that parties bidding for the loan were to bid so
much money for each 1001. stock. Two offers have been made
which were identical, and the result of previous arrangements
between the parties. The offer made was of 89/. 10s. for each
1001. stock. Aceording to the best considerations which I
have been able to give the subject, and also as the result of
communications with various parties, and considering the present
state of the money market, I thought the offer was an advan-
tageous one, and I came to the resolution of accepting it.
With respect to the rate of interest at which the loan
has been contracted, it will be necessary that I should make
some observations upon the statements which I made upon a
former occasion. What I had in view when I made that an-
nouncement to the House was that I expected to raise the loan
at a rate of interest of between three and four per cent.; I
thought that probably I might be able to raise it at three-and-
a-half per cent. It was necessary to debit myself with some
amount as chargeable upon the revenue of the country, it was
necessary that I should in part know what amount of interest
would fall upon the country as chargeable upon the revenue.
That sum, I am happy to say, does not quite equal three-and-a-
half per cent. Upon the occasion of the last wan, the rate of
interest was not so high as the present rate of
interest. The West Indian loan was one of
20,000,000/., the loan which I have now contracted is
one of a considerably less amount. The price of Consols was
then considerably higher than at present; it is not therefore to
be supposed that, with a smaller amount of loan to be raised,
ar.d with the price of Consols considerably less, that the pre-
sent loan could be contracted upon the same advantageous
terms as the former one. The interest that will be payable
upon the present loan is as near as may be 3/. 7s. 6d. per cent.
A calculation has been made in the Treasury
offices, which
brings the rate of interest to 31. 7e, per cent., and if you de-
duct the amount of the dividend from January to March, it
will make it 31. 7s. 6d. per cent. The annual amount of in-
terest upon the loan will be 268,156/. Ss., to which, if you add
the amount of the Bank charges of management of the loan,
it will make the total amount chareeable upon the loan
270,800/. es., or a charge upon the whole of something less
than 3/. 7s. 6J. per cent. I have therefore contracted the
loan 2s. 6d. per cent. less than the 34 per cent. which I sup-
pose I should have had to pay for the loan. I have allowed no
discount, and I have also adopted the practice usually employed
in loans in France of giving stock, if required, for every instal-
ment as they are paid, except the first. This will cause noextra charge upon the country, and will, at the same time
afford to Government an increased facility for raising the loan.
The Right lion. Member concluded eluded by moving resolutions
confirmatory of the loan granted b her Majesty ; that towards
the 8,000,0 i 01. authorised to beyraised every contributor of
891. 10s. be entitled to 100/. stock, after the rate of 3 per
cent.; the same to be computed from the 3d of January, and
to be then added to the existing Three per Cents.; that ever)
contributor should, from the sth of March, 1847, pay 12 per
cent, of the sum he or she might have agreed to contribute to
the 8,000,0001.; the succeeding instalments to be paid on the
9th April, 7th May, 11th June, 9th July, 6th August, 30th
September, and the 16th October.
Mr. HUME wished to know whether the interest on the
whole loan would commence in January or with each portion
paid?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the
interest commenced from January. Supposing that acpersohne
had paid up the whole of his instalments before July,then
was entitled to receive a half year's dividend i
an-
other in January, but if they had not paid upth July and
eirinstalments
they would not be entitled to receive a dividend till January.
Mr. HUME had only to express his regret that the Right
Hen. Gentleman had resorted to this modekof obtaining the
f i,
ha
nd
loan. They They were now to pay 8,938,5471•
terest for that amount to the 31st Januarsty,ocho °rt
h t ey had
not received it. He must say that they had tmadeug a bad bar-
gain, and he had no doubt that the loan would now bring 3 or
4 per cent. stock in the market. By accepting lowsuch
he
terms,
not
a great loss would be sustained by the country. Hwould
.t
have left it open to the chances of combination, but have put it
in the power of every one to compete for it in the market. He
was informed that these were now at a premium of from 1 to
lb per cent. It was the principles however, that he objected
to, and be regretted that such a course had been adopted.
Mr. WILLIAMS expressed his sorrow that the Chancellor
of the Exchequer had proceeded in the beaten track of all
Chancellors of the Exchequer for the last forty years. By
proceeding in this way, an additional sum of 173 millions had
been added to the debt of this country. He objected to the
principle altogether, for he maintained that they ought to get
1/. sterling for every 1/. of stock. He thought that if her Ala-
jesty's Government had pursued a different course that the
result would have been also different, and what had now been
unsuccessful, would have been successful.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER having
replied,
Mr. HUME said that they should get the best terms for the
public they could, and if they had put upve thegot
betterloans toaestotao. raiseHe
a competition, they would probably have
therefore, did consider that the public did not get a fair
chance.
Mr. WILLIAMS considered that there had been no com-
petence, if it was not a secret, he would desire to know who
the two parties were who made the offer for the loan.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said'that it
was no secret, for that it was probably very well known by the
public, that they were the Messrs. Rothschild and the Messrs.
Baring.
After some conversation the resolution was agreed to, and
the House resumed.
POOR RELIEF IRELAND BILL.
On the order of the day that the House do go into a com-
mittee on the Poor Relief Ireland Bill,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he did not rise with any
intention of provoking a discussion, but into let the
House know earlier than it otherwise would order
his
whatinten-
tions were, he proposed that they should go into
en Monday next, and that they at present would go inonatorneiotmtee-
mittee pro forma. With respect to the first clause of the bill,
guardians
it had been suggested that although the
quired to relieve the destitute out of the workhouse, yet, that
cases might arise where owing to the workhouse being filled,
or to fever, it would be impossible to
fill
clausef it, and the
guardians, therefore, refuse to give
relief. In order toprevent such mistakes from occurring, a
should
in-
troduced requiring relict to be afforded to the
capability of the union. In clause 9, the Governmentull extent of the
to alter the liability of persons to be rated. They propose
place the charge of maintaining the poor proposed to
up to a certain
amount upon the electoral district, but that
where it exceeded
2s. 6d. in the pound it should be charged
large. They also proposed to alter the numberto the union
at
of ex-officio
guardians. In England, all magistrates, who served as
magistrates in the union, were members of the board
of guardians. In Ireland, ,
to the number of one-third _ they were elected
of the whole board.
What the Government proposed was,
trates be elected to the number of one half that the magis-
of the whole body.
They should likewise introduce a clause ie to that in the
Temporary Relief Bill, giving power to tire
re-
move a board of guardians for the non-yerforomvearnnemeenotf
tothei;
duty, and placing paid guardians to act in their stead. There
was another point to which he would allude. The House were
aware that in England poor relief was not given to persons who

had sufficient means of subsistence of their own
The House might recollect that it was proposed by the Hon.
Member for Dublin that no relief should be given to persons
possessing above half an acre of land. If they said that per-
sons should be required to possess any land whatever, there
would be then a danger that some, indeed many, poor persons,
would be deprived of the occupation of a cottage, or their little
plot of garden. On the other hand, should relief be given to
persons possessed of any land whatever, there would be a
danger of giving encouragement to persons of small
holdings, which would, as had been suggested to him,
be most dangerous to the general prosperity of the
country. The small holdings had been represented
as one of the most prominent evils in Ireland. Between those
two points of danger the Government were undecided, and
they wished to take some time for consideration. Her Ma-
jesty's Government, however, felt the necessity of some defini-
tion as to what class of persons should be entitled to relief. He
would, in conclusion, propose to go into Committee pro forma,
and they should then proceed with the other two Bills as quickly
as possible.
Mr. SHAW said that he understood the proposition cf the
Noble Lord to be as follows: With reference to

the first clause, he intended to grant relief to
all who might require it. Now, he would suggest
a right to relief would necessitate a law of settlement.
At present, the House should recollect, there was no absolute
right to relief existing in Ireland. With regard to the second
clause he perfectly acquiesced in it; and with respect to the
ninth clause, that no relief should be charged as far as possible
upon the locality, and that where it exceeded a certain sum
that then it should be charged upon the union at large, he also
concurred, for as at present advised he saw no tangible objection
against such a princißle.
Sir ROBERT PEEL wished to know whether the Noble
Lord gave the vestry the same right in the union as they had in
England ? _ _ _

Sir. SHAW asked whether he was to understand by the
clause which refused relief to those holding land, if those in
possession of certain small holdings would be entitled to relief,
but that all with large holdings, above a certain amount, should
not be entitled to relief?

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, in regard to the first question
by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, in reference to the
clauses giving the right of out-door relief, the guardians were
required to give out-door relief when the workhouse was full.
It was felt necessary to make this provision, supposing such a
case should arise as that the people might be starving, at a
time when they could not be admitted into the workhouse. It
was to meet an emergency of that kind, and to empower the
guardians to give relief out of door. As to the question put
by the Right Hon. Baronet, he said it would not be exactly
the same as it was in England, for in England there was this
difference, that relief was given in full; but it was not the
intention of the Government to make it exactly similar in
Ireland.

Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL thought that the clause intro-
ducing ex-officio guardians would work very badly in Ireland ;
and he feared, that as regarded religious questions and reli-
gious instructions to the inmates of the workhouse, he hoped
the Government would introduce some means which would
protect the inmates in that respect.
Sir DENHAM NORREYS said he was surprised at the
Noble Lord in the way he had been guided in introducing the
rating clauses into the Bill. That Noble Lord had partially
brought the question before the House, and he was bound to
have taken the opinion of the House ; but he understood
that he had allowed himself to be guided by some of the
Irish Members. Had he taken the opinion of the whole Irish
party, perhaps complaint would have been out of place; but he
ought, knowing the complaints made from Ireland on the sub-
ject, to have brought it before the House, and given them an
opportunity of making their statements and laying down their
opinion upon it. In common sense and justice, the Noble
Lord was bound to have taken this course, and not to have set-

tied such a question in his private closet. He might say it was
not settled ; but the Noble Lord had made up his mind, and he
came forward with his opinions and pressed them upon the
House, and they were not likely to be able to change them. He
had lost all confidence in him as a leader. All the confidence
which had been begotten by his conduct on the Factory Bill,
the Mayneoth Bill, and other questions.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said the Hon. Gentleman wished
to have discussion, and he promised he would have an opportu-
nity; he hoped to see the question of rating, of a uniform rate,
brought before the House. His opinion was, that any patching
and tinkering of a measure would be injurious, as they would
find out ere five years had elapsed.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN could not allow that opportunity
to pass without protesting against the proposed constitution of
the board of guardians. The Noble Lord, it was welt known,
had the popular support for his Government, and yet he came
forwardwithaproposition
to make
andhe
one-thirdortreby bade ond% fourth
op_
position. the whole board ex officio members,
position. He thought if persons were fit to be guardians they
would be elected by the ratepayers, and if they did not have
the confidence of the poor and the ratepayers, they ought not
to be guardians.
Mr. POULETT SCROPE said that many improvements
had been made in the Bill—many more had yet to be made.
But he must observe that in those made already,
and those allowed that evening by the Noble Lord,
great concessions had been made in favour of
the landlord. There was one, however, which he must
mention with all prominency in justice to the Noble Lord, viz ,
that which gave the right of out-door relief, at least, where
the workhouse was full. As in England, so in Ireland, he was
happy where the law was that no one should be allowed to
starve, for then the poor man might in either country claim
relief under the law. At the same time he did not think that
the Noble Lord would have left it to the guardians to starve
one portion of the people at their will. But he admitted that I
the clause was a very large concession in favour of the poor.
There was one clause which gave the Commissioners the right
of ordering outdoor relief to all classes of the poor. That was
a great advantage and much in favour of the poor, but he was
sorry to see it limited only to times when the workhouse was
full, or when it might be considered dangerous to ad-
mit more in case of infection from fever. The next
concession in favour of the ratepayer was, the clause intro-
ducing the ex officio guardians. That, he considered, was a great
concession, and one from which he doubted not but that the
poor would suffer. Another concession was, that small far-
mers should not be allowed to claim relief unless they gave up
their land. That was not a provision in the Scottish law, it
did not require the poor farmer to give up his croft before it
would allow relief.
Mr. F. MAULE.—It does not allow relief.

Mr. P. SCROPE.—Yes ; but it did not make it neces-
sary for the small farmer, previous to his receiving aid, to give
aphis croft ; and for saying that he was supported by the last re-
port of the Poor-law Commissioners' inquiry for Scotland. If
in Ireland the law should be that farmers of three or four acres
of land, and there were several hundreds of such in that
country—if it should be necessary for such to give up their
farms, if they fell into eireumitances of difficulty and distress,
the effect would be ruinous, and the law would be most unpo-
pular. Another clause in the Rill worthy of attention, was
that which confines the out-door relief to the permanently dis-
abled. He did not know exactly how that phrase, permanently
disabled, might be explained, for it was a new distinction in the
law. But this he knew, that it distinguished a very small por-
tion of the poor recipients of relief in England. The Puor-law
Commissioners in this country had divided all the classes of the
poor into nine, and this class of permanently disabled
formed but one of these. He was sorry to think that this pro-
vision would offer but very inadequate relief to the class of
persons who ought really to have come under that designation,
and he regretted it the more so as Government, by taking
proper steps, and making adequate provision for the poor in
their own country, would have adopted the best means of pre-
venting the crowds of poor that immigrated into this country
in search of the relief which they could not obtain in their
native land. One thing he was anxious to know from the
Noble Lord was, what steps he meant to take for the sup-
pression of mendicancy and vagrancy ? He recollected
that in the Poor-law Bill introduced by the Noble
Lord, in December 1837, there were clauses introduced for the
suppression of mendicancy and vagrancy, and that the Noble
Lord, upon that occasion based the whole Bill upon these
clauses, and principle of suppressing these. The clauses in
question were however expunged after they left the Commons,
in the House of Lords, and passed without them in 1838.
Having said thus much, he would postpone what he had to say
till a future occasion.
Mr. LEFROY had a question to task of the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government. It was, how far was it his inten-
tion that the workhouse test should be carried out before out-
door relief was granted ? He hoped also that while this matter
was properly attended to, the subject of union-rating would be
alao considered ; as the system of electoral voting was much de-
sired by the people of Ireland.
Mr. CALLAGHAN wished to say a few words on the
point of union-rating. He had lately presented a petition from
the citizens of Cork for a more extensive system of rating than
even union-rating. He was decidedly of opinion that unless a
general system of rating was established, there would be no
peace or satifaction in Ireland. He also regretted to hear the
proposal of the Government for increasing the number of
ex officio guardians, as it would cause great dissatisfaction, and
introduce parties on to the boards who in many instances would
have no interest in the raising of the rates they were called on
o administer.
Mr. FITZGERALD agreed with the Government in the
mode of rating proposed in the Bill.
In answer to a question from Mr. SHAW,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the Government had under
consideration a Vagrancy Act for Ireland.
The House then went into Committee on the Bill.
The Bill was agreed to pro forma, and ordered to be re-
committed on Monday next.
LANDED PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved that the order of the day
for going into Committee on this Bill be read, in order to post-
pone it till Monday next.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN complained of the postponement
of the Bill, and considered great inconvenience would arise
therefrom. At the present time the people were engaged on
works entirely of an unproductive nature, and every day lost
in the settlement of the present Bill would be inflicting a
serious injury on Ireland. With respect to the poor-law pro-
posed, that was not a measure to enrich Ireland.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought the measure of such
importance that he could not agree to its passing without the
greatest consideration. It should be gone through clause by
clause, and all its provisions duly weighed and considered.
Their so doing before sending it to the other House was the
most safe and practical course, and this would
take up some time. The Honourable Member
had also complained of the proposed poorelaw, and
said that it would not be a measure to make Ireland rich. He
(Lord John Russell) did not say that it would do so, but it
would have the effect of inducing the landed proprietors and
the farmers to employ the people instead of supporting them
in the workhouse, and thus lead to the improvement of the
country.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the money now
spending, it would enable the people to earn something to
keep thm alive. The most important question for the Go-
vernment now was, not whether the labour was productive or
not, but to enable the people to keep alive. Still he thought
that even the roads which had been made, and which were
said to be unproductive, would turn out most useful and advan-
tageous. He could farther assure the Hon. Mensber that
tlre Waste Lands Bill would be shortly introduced, and that
that, with the New Poor-law, would be proceeded with
without delay.
With respect to the Bill now under eonside-
ration, the Lord Chancellor had gone through the
clauses, and thought them highly important and practical;
sI asthe practicelof the Court of Chancery in Ireland differed
somewhat from the practice of the English Court, it was con-
sidered the best course to delay the Bill a little, in order that
signs might be fully matured, and that it might, there-
its provi
fore, work satisfactorily.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. HUAIE said no one could see the exertions which the
Government were making without being satisfied that they
were doing their best ; still he could not agree with the Noble
Lord that the money now expended was not unproductive.
He (Mr. Hume) did not see any evidence ofits productive-
ness, while its application was taking the people away from the
cultivation of the land. No time should be lost in carrying
loans
the Bill, to enable the landed proprietors to receive in
order to employ the people on the lands. There was no doubt
but that the land would pay for the capital expended on it. Only
the other day he learned that land in one of the most distressed
counties in Ireland, Kerry had sold for 27 years' purchase. He
thought that as so many of the estates in Ireland were in
Chancery, a Bill should be passed to enable the proprietors to
sell their estates, and apply the results to liberate themselves
from their present unfortunate position.
Lord G. BENTINCK said he could not agree with the
Noble Lord in the picture he had drawn of the benefits which
would arise from the roads that were making, as from a report
of a meeting held the other day in Ireland, at which Mr.
Bianconi, who had been referred to as a great authrity in that

House, had spoken. That gentleman had spoken at the
meeting, represented the roads to be in a most deplorable
condition, and of little use for the purposes contemplated. (The
Noble Lord read an extract from the report of the meeting to
this effect.)
Lord J. RUSSELL had not said that he was very sanguine
of the benefits which the reads would produce, but that he
considered they would benefit the country, and be the means
of employing the people so as to supply the means of sub-
sistence.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM entertained a strong opinion that
every farthing expended in Ireland, should be spent in a repro-
ductive manner. He did not, however, rise to give this opi-
nion, but to express himself that he thought it unfair and
unjust to press the Government in this period of awful and
unexampled difficulty, or to blame them for delaying to bring
forward the measures which they thought necessary to meet
the crisis.' But he would express his opinion in reference to
permanent measures for Ireland, that none would be better
calculated to give relief than a measure giving facilities to
tenants for life to relieve themselves of their incumbrances by
the sale of portions of their land.— (Hear, hear.) Such a
measure was absolutely required, and he rejoiced to hear that
the Lord Chancellor of Ireland had directed his earnest
attention to the question, in order that some relief in
this respect might be given to holders of property.—( Hear.)
There was a clause to put this on equitable principles, but
what was the consequence ? Why, Lord Langdale, Lord
Campbell, the Lord Chancellor, and Lord Lyndhurst had all
allowed that the principles of the till were inapplicable to the
circumstances of the country. These principles had been
fully agreed to in that House, and yet these great law Lords
had all assented to the agreement that the bill was quite un-
tenable. On the one hand, there was the difficulty which
must be felt in the Legislature at passing Bills to which these
Lords could not give their consent. Yet he considered that
obtaining the consent of the other House to the improvement
of the Poor Law was of the greatest possible moment, and he

trusted the necessary measures for that purpose would be taken.
Mr. L A BOUCHERE could not but regret the opinion that
the Right Hon. Baronet opposite had expressed as to the two
courses, one of which it was determined that Parliament should
pursue. He deeply regretted that the word of his Noble Friend
the first Lord of the Treasury had not been sufficiently at-
tended to. The Right Hon. Baronet seemed to think that his
Noble Friend conceived that it was immaterial what works
were entered upon, and whether they were useful or unprofit-
able works ; but if he had examined sufficiently into the state
of the facts, he would find that none of the works on which the
public money had been expended could be called unproductive
works, and that the expenditure which had been made had been
of much service in the improvement of property of the country.
In the consideration of this question, they must go to the con-
sideration of the matters before them, and to save the sacrifice
of human life, and to prevent the extent of human suffering,
and for that purpose they were anxious to promote this mea-
sure. But it had been made a charge against the Govern-
ment, that these people had net been employed upon reproduc-
tive works, and that if the money were to be expended, this
ought to be resorted to. But were not these people already
engaged, directly or indirectly, in the cultivation of the soil.
He had stated over and over again, that the object of the Go-
vernment in the planning of these works, was the employment
of the people with a view to the preservation of human life.
But, as the Right Hon. Baronet bad observed, this could only
be attained by the expenditure of a large sum of money. The
great question was, as to how this plan would
succeed in the improvement of the country. What
would have been the circumstances had this grant
not been made. Why, the probability was that the suffering
would not have been relieved, and yet the money would have
been equally expended, and therefore it was that he was re-
joiced that they had given their assistance, and that the people
had been employed upon public, rather than upon re-productive
works. He would not trouble the House with further remarks,
but could not Lhelp expressing his regret that their measures
had not met with the approval of the Hon. Member for Dor•
setshire (Mr. S. Herbert), whose opinion was always of so
much weight in that House.
Sir D. NORREYS—The Noble Lerd was desirous of de-
veloping the resources of Ireland. Let him do so in a manly
manner, and let no man take up a mine or any other public
work without the sanction of Government. Would it not be
better now, if the Noble Lord has any measure in
hand, to submit that to the Board of Works, and see
whether it was feasible or not. This principle might be
observed as respected either a bank or a public road,
He would now give an instance of this Act. He had an offer
from some gentlemen to erect a mill at an expense of from
14,0001. to 15,0001., but he could not accede to their offer
bocause he could not force the occupants of certain lands to give
him a right of way to the entrance to the mill. Then there was
another case which had come under his notice. There was a
limestone quarry which could not be brought into play, because
the original holders of the land refused to grant their assistance
to the conveyance of the stone from the quarry, and he was
quite satisfied that unless some measures were taken for expe-
diting the means for enabling public works to be carried on it
would be utterly futile to pass any measure for the improve-
ment of Ireland.

Mr. BAILEY believed that unless there were some mea-
sures for enabling the proprietors to get rid of their entailed
estates, any measures to which the Government might accede
would be of no use whatever.

Mr. J. O'CONNELL said that a great misunderstanding
prevailed on this subject. He had himself been largely en-
gaged in the appropriation of the means provided for the im-
provement of Ireland, especially in the most cultivated districts
in Ireland. He meant those about Dublin. The great object
was, to give employment to the people, and they had found that
the making of roads had been of the utmost possible advantage,
for they afforded to the most destitute immediate employment.
One fault only had, as it appeared to him, been committed,
and that was the endeavour to do the work which required
17,000,0001. with a grant of 10,000,0007.; a grant which was
totally inapplicable to the purpose. Sure he was that if the
Government acted consistently they would not find the gentle.
men of Ireland behindhand in rendering their assistance.

Mr. SHAW was unwilling to say a single word, but he
thought that the Bill of the Government might have been
sooner brought forward, and he regretted this the more as
there was an evident desire on both sides of the House that it
should be carried forward as speedily as possible.
Mr. P. SCROPE waa anxious to know the result of the
Drainage Act of last session, for it appeared to him that it
had not been sufficiently followed au'. He had had communi-
cations from Ireland in which it was stated that the land ir. the
neighbourhood of the writers was quite under wa'er, and he
fds aasurcd that if that !ict had bee•. fully carried out, that no
difficulty would have been experienced respecting those public
wolks.

After a few words from Mr. BAILEY,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he should be prepared
to answer the question on Monday next, and he could not
without preparation undertake to answer all the questions
respecting the measures which had passed this House. With
respect to the Drainage Bill, of which complaint had been made
by his Hon. Friend (Mr. P. Scrope), all he could say was that
every opportunity had been taken to render the Act as avail-
able as possible, and as there was to be another discussion,
he might say with respect to the question of his Hon, Friend,
that be would then be able to learn what the intentions of
Government were. _ _

The Earl of LINCOLN had listened with much attention to
the observations of the Hon. Member of St. Germains, and
did feel that the intentions of the Act of last year had not been
fully carried out, and that the sanction of the Government
had been fully justified. And the more so that from 120 to
130 per cent. of the funds had been applied to the purposes of
this Act.

Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN regretted that no intimation had
been given by the Government of the plan which they intended
to adopt ; for, if they had, he felt assured that not only would
the system itself have been most satisfactory to the country,
but that it would be more eminently instrumental in the
pro.
motion of the public welfare.
The vote was then postponed until Monday next.
ARMY ESTIMATES.
On the motion that the House go into a Committee of
Supply on the army estimates,
Mr. HUNIE said that he exceedingly regretted that the
Government should have taken the course which they had
adopted in the arrangement of these estimates, for he saw no
reason whatever for the increase of the sum to be
voted for these estimates. Since the year 1822 the
estimates for this purpose were upwards of 20,000,0004
in excess of what they were, and for this he saw no reason
whatever. Dating the years 1835, 6, and 7he found that the
whale of the estimates for the purposes of war were upwards
of 4.3,000,0004, giving an average for the three years of more
than 14,473,000/., and since the year 1843 they had increased
to the extent of more than 3,000,000/. He did not see any
reason fur this, for the difference was not great between the
present year and that of 1828, when the army had been re-
duced. For his own part he did not see that there was any
great necessity for a larger military establishment than that
which existed in 1792, and to that standing he thought the
army ought to be approximated if it were not reduced to that
extent. These were matters well deserving of inquiry, and he
trusted the Government would not allow the matter to pass
without sufficient investigation.
Sir DE LACY EVANS could, as he believed, make con-
siderable pretensions to the character of a liberal Member of
that House, but he would never be a party to embarrass the
Government by such a reduction of the army estimates as that
which had been suggested by the Hon. Member for Montrose

, .
(111;. Hustle).—(Hear, hear.) The wants of this great
empire were not to be satisfied by a meagre force.
with regard to what had fallen from the Honourable Member
for Montrose upon the subject of economy, he could only say,
that at no hustings would he ever give a pledge to make any
silly or foolish reductions in the public expenditure, and thus
jeopardize the defences of the country.
Lord GEORGE BENTINCK said nothing could be more
rash and silly than reductions at the expense of the security of
the country. He had heard with great surprise from free tra-
ders opposite, that no sooner had they est ablished free trade,
than they were obliged to increase their military operations; be-
cause they were once told, that the effects of free trade would
be to produce peace, lay desolate fortifications, disband enemies,
and do away with the navy. Now he, as a protectionist, never
saw that any of these consequences would arise, nor did lie
ever believe that free trade would lead to more harmony be-
tween foreign countries and Great Britain, But it was not be-
cause free traders were disappointed in that respect that he
was disposed not to listen to any unwise or foolish reductions in
our military or naval establishment, nor was he inclined in any
way to expose the security of the country to the intrigues of
foreign nations.--( Hear, hear. )
Dr. BOWRING said the Noble Lord had evidently taken
an erroneous view of the opinions of free traders. He had
heard with regret some of the favourable terms of olden times,
such as silly and miserable reductions, rash retrenchments, and
so forth, for he believed the people entertained a strong hope
that the military and naval establishments of the country would
be diminished. For himself, he thought our merchants were
a far better protection to the country than eitherthehaursititiny or
gs,
the navy, and whatever might hereafter pass on
he could only say that he had already recetvecimo the
from his
one
strong remonstrance, more than one severe lesson his con-
stituents, to take care not to lend himself to any unnecessary
augmentation of the funds appropriated to the support of the
army and navy.—( Hear, hear.) Unlimited control was placed
in the hands of the Government over the finances of the
nation, and they ought to show their respect of that confidence
by economising in the army and naval departments as much as
possible.—( Hear, hear.)
- Mr. WILLIAMS would make but a very few observations
at this period of the debate. He was quite prepared to admit
that any expenditure, however extravagant, would be defended
by professional gentlemen connected with the army and navy,
so far as they were concerned ; and perhaps they were justified
in doing so.—( Hear, hear.) Ile had hoped that the Noble
Lord the Prime Minister would have followed the example
of the Governments of Earl Grey and Lora Melbourne
of which the Noble Lord himself was a distinguished member.
The first act of Earl Grey, after reforming the House of Com-
mons, was to propose a reduction in the expenditure in the
army and navy; and when Lord Melbourne came into office, he
mad *various further reductions in several departments, till at
last they were brought down to something less than eight mil-
lions. He was surprised to hear, the other night,
the Right
Honourable the Secretary for the Admiralty, state, that the
available army for Great Britain only amounted to 00 000 men.
Now so far from this being the case in the year 1836,, reducing
from the aggregate number, the men required for Ireland and
the colonies, there was left a force of 77.000 men disposable in
Great Britain, which could have been brought down to the
coast at any moment, to destroy the French army had they at-
tempted an invasion.—( Hear and laughter.) It was therefore
his intention to propose a reduction of twenty
the* and men when the Estimates came before
them, and still,' after that reduction was notch the army would
consist of 32,084 men more than it did in 1635. He should
propose that the Horse Guards be reduced to 500 men, and Le

could not see how the House could reasonably object to thi sr
for no one ever saw co many as .SGO guards on duty at once.—
,
( Hear, hear.) He would also propose a reduction in the Foot
Guards of just one half, vie., from .5,260, to 2,630 ; the cost of
this reduction would be 105,452/.—(Laughter)—the cost of
the reduction of the Life Guards would be 115,0401.—(Laugh-
ter)—making a total cost in the reduction of these two depart.
ments of 220,4921.—( Renewed laughter.)
Mr. B. DISRAELI—Is that the cost of the reduction?

Mr. WILLIAMS—Yes.—( Continued laughter.) The
Hon. Member then went on to allude to the dead weight of
the country—the pension list. The total amount of pensions
was 3,702,000/. A great portion of those who received these
sums had done nothing for the public service. He had no ob-
jeetion to see merit and services duly rewarded ; he would
maintain in respectability every body who had lost his life in
the public service—( Loud laughter)—or rather his widow and
children. The Hon. Member then proceeded to state his be-
lief that if this country were to reduce its military establish-
ment,, France would do the same ; and proceeded at some length
to show that the financial condition of that country rendered it
imperatively necessary for the French Government to adopt
that course.
Mr. BROTHERTON protested against the time of the
House being wasted in the manner it bad been by the Hon.
Member who had just sat down. He should feel it his duty.
if the course were pursued, to move the adjournment of the
House.--( Hear, hear.) It was a great interruption to public
business.—( Hear, hear.) He thought the House ought to go
into Committee, and get at once to business.--(Hear,)
The House then went into a Committee of Supply.
ARMY ESTIMATES.
Mr. FOX MA ULE said he thought the Hon. Member for
Coventry (Mr. Williams) would not quarrel with him if he
stated his opinion to the House, that he thought they were
much indebted to the Hon. Member for Salford (Mr. Bro-
t her ton ) for the remarks he had just made. It would have
been much more convenient to have discussed the several
points which had been adverted to by the Hon. Member as
they had arisen in Committee, than that he should have made
a statement mixing up together the army, the navy, and the
ortlnance, and thereby rendering it almost impossible to meet
at once the Irish police, the Archbishop of Dublin, and the
numerous other complaints of the Honourable Member.—
( Laughter.) With respect to the remarks of the Honourable
Member for Montrose upon the army estimates, to the effect
that there was a decrease upon the effective, but a large in-
crease upon the non-effective force, the
.Hon. Member should
have recollected that he was at least an accessory before the
fact, because he was one of those who asserted as cordially as
any ether Hon. Member to the remission of the charge upon
the poundage of Chelsea pensioners, amounting to a sum of
50,0001. He would not then take upon himself to enter into
the question of the general policy of the Government, but
would confine himself to the business immediately before the
Committee, if the Committee would bear with him for few
minutes while be made the usual financial statement of the
military affairs of this country. He thought lie should best
consult the convenience of the Committee if he applied himself
to the estimates immediately before the House, and afterwards
allude generally to those topics of military interest of which
the Committee might be desirous oflearning something at his
hand. Upon reference to the estimates, it would appear that
the number of men to be voted in the aggregate for the ensuing
year was 138,895, the gross charge for these would be
5,155,8481. The gross charge for the non-effective force during
the present year was 2,175,2271., making a total gross charge of
7,331,0751. From that sum, however, there fell to be de-
ducted the sum paid for 30,497 men by the East India Com-
pany £972,211
Appropriations in aid of the effective force ... - 52,375
Balance from the Royal Military College
Appropriation in aid of the Royal Military Asylum 6,145
Appropriations in aid of the non-effective force 7,137

Making a total to be deducted from the gross
charge of .
Leaving a charge on the present year of 6,275,0741.' and the
number of men to be voted 108,398, making a small decrease
upon the number which was taken last year, of 210 men.
There were some charges of course in the different arrange-
ments of this number, and he thought it right to state some
of those charges to the Committee. There has been a decrease
in the regiments coming from foreign service. Five regiments
which will arrive from foreign service, bad, during the time
they were abroad, borne a strength of one thousand men,
those regiments would be reduced upon their arrival
at home, each of them, to eight hundred men,
That reduction, together with a reduction of some nen-com-
missioned officers, would cause a total reduction of 1,075 men.
There was also another small reduction, amounting to 37 men,
which would make a total reduction of 1,111 men. With the
exception of 210 men, those diferenees were supplied in the
following manner, and as it involved a principle, he would make
a statement upon that subject to the Committee, in as short a
time ss possible. It is proposed to raise a body of 682 men,
including office's, for the service of the garrison at
the service
of Hong Kong,Hong-
n a
Kong, and it was also proposed to add this body to the Ceylon
corps,andin
the Governmentadoptingthis
mode
w would 1 dr providing i
ditnnigg forlt
op
princi-
ple which had formerly been much discussed in that House, a
principle upon which he had very considerable opinions, and
that was the mode of applying, wherever it was possible, the
colonial corps, for the purpose of taking charge of the colonial
possessions.—( Hear, hear.) This mode was more economical
in point of administration,
and infinitely more economical in a
still more essential point of view, he alluded to the preserva-
tion of the health and lives of soldiers —(Hear, hear)—and
therefore it was that the Government had come to the resolu-
tion that, instead of keeping British troops at Hong Kong,
where he was sorry to say that they had fallen a prey
to diseases incident to that climate, it would be better, and
they had accordingly proposed that the garrison of Hong
Kong should be occupied by a corresponding number of men
drawn from the Ceylon corp.. Another increase, and this,
although the first, he was afraid would not be the last increase,
in the Cape corps. The Governor had already added two
companies to that eorrs, amounting to 174 men. But Sir 11.
Pottinger and Major-General Berkley, who had recently gone
oet there, had been instructed to add four more companies to
that c.erps, and he would say that it was in contemplation fur-
ther to consider the means of providing for the de•
fences of the extended territory of that colony, by means of
colonial corps, so as to relieve this country of a
considerable portion of the expense. There was
also another small addition of 45 men, making a total addition
of 901 men, which taken Irons the 1,111 men left an actual de-
crease for the ensuing year of 210 men. The Hon. Member
for Coventry (Mr. Williams) proposed to effect a reduction of
20,000 men; for his part he would say that if the Government
could spare 20,000 men, without retereucc to the defences of
the country, but simply with respect to the general operation of
the relief of the burdens upon the country, he should be happy
to do so. His belief was that if the Government wished to
relieve their regiments in ans thing like a proper man-
ner—( Hear, hear)—the nso:t effectual manner of pre-
venting their doing so would he to diminish the force
in the mode prescribed by the Honourable Member
for Coventry. He believed that there was at the present
period no regiment which had not been in India for a period of
upwards of 141 years, and he believed that there was now no
regiment at home which had remained in this country for more
than few years, and he hoped that in the course of time (for
it would require time to effect it) that the Government would
be able to bring down the largest term of absence of any
regiment from this country to a period not exceeding
thirteen years. lie would then pass on to the next vote—
the charge for the land forces for the ensuing year.
Upon the land force charge there was a decrease to the public
of 44,1511., owing to appropriations in aid. Had it not been
for these appropriations there would not have been any
reduction on this charge. The next vote to which he came
was the staff. On that vote there was an increase of 8,3431.,
which was occasioned by the force they were obliged to send to
the Cape of Good Hope, and I think the Committee will be of
opinion that the worst way to endeavour to settle the little
wars was to do so in a little way. The effect of the contrary
mode of proceeding was apparent at the Cape, for the move-
ment that had taken place had completely paralysed the
Caffres, and had laid the foundation of the hope of
submission. No corps could acquit themselves more gallantly
than that which was commanded by Colonel Somerset.
On that vote, therefore, there would be an increase, as he had
stated, of 6,043/. • The fourth vote on the estimates was in
the Public Department, and the increase on that was 2,0934
which was caused by the increase of postage, and was caused.
by the increase of work in the department. The next vote
was for the Royal Military Asylum. The estimate for this
year was 17,633/., and for last year 14,062/., there being
an increase of 3,5711, for a vote to which he would
allude more particularly by and bye—one for the fur-
ther..nce of a new system of education in that establish-
ment, but he would at present pass on to the other votes.
The next vote was for the volunteer corps, which it was pro-
posed to increase this year to 3,929/. In the estimates last
year a vote of 36,5001. was taken for the unprovided services,
hut it was not proposed this year to take any vote for them,
but to leave them to be paid for as they might arise. Taking,
then, the sum 01 these respective increases, 17,936/. from this
36,5001., the vote for tie unprovided services of last year, a
balance of 18,5641. would be left, which, if added to the de-
crease on the land force, would make altogether a decrease in
the effective services of 62,7051. He now came to the non-
effective services. The Honourable Member for Mon.
trose said that there was a large increase on these
services. He said there was a steady increase on every vote.
Now he (Mr. F. Mauls) did not think the Hon. Gentleman
studied these estimates with the care he usually bestowed upon
them, because a comparison of this year's estimates with those
of last year, was not a fair one, inasmuch as the vote of last
year comprehended merely three quarters, while the vote of this
year extended over four. He (Mr. F. Maule) should, there-
fore, take the account in its various details, and would state it
to the House. The first vote was for the reward of distin-
guished services. On this vote there was an increase of 3,740/.
The estimated charge of last year (four quarters) had been
calculated would have amounted to 16,0791., while for this
year the vote was 15,740/., so that, in point of fact, there
was an actual decrease this year of 3391., though there was an
apparent increase.
This, however, was not a vote on which
the Hon. Member would like to see a steady decrease. Those
'
who had the interests of the army at heart would not . object to
an occasional increase of this vote. This
yearorei tiroa us services
proposed
to give 1,040/. to officers as rewards for meritorious
e In this vote it
was
The next vote was the pay of general oT3c _ _
bat
that
vote
proposed to make an increase of sOOOl
contained the expenses of theagainst
arrangements which the
f th. educt.
Hon. Member protested—theexpenses
o
r of laste brevet
year, whicDh was
however,
lug, the extra q
16,0001., the real increase over the vote of last year was re-
duced to 17,000/. And a brevet going to the extent it did
the ordinary estimate of only 17,000/.
with an increase over
could afford ',rounds for any diasatis-
w not a matter which
This
vote vote was for the retiring full-pay.
faction. The next
vote was estimated at 13,000!., while for that of last year it
5,
was . t 000/•, so that on this vote there was a reductiou of
2,000'. He now • came to the half-pay, and his Hon. Friend
said that this was a vote continually increasing.
Mr. WILLIAMS—OnIy apart of it.
Mr. F. MAULE—His Hon. Friend said only a part of it.
Well, he held in his hand a paper which gave the state of this
vote from 1830, from which it appeared that it was going on
gradually decreasing from 720.000/. to 420,0001. There was
an actual decrease this year of 14,000/. He now came to the
foreign half pay. The vote last year was for 50,281/, but
for this year it was 49,136/., so that there was
a decrease of 1,1451. He now came to the widow's
pension. The vote last. year was 135,819/., and for the pre-
sent it was proposed to be 131,854/., so that there would be a
decrease of 6,9651. He held in his hand a comparative state-
ment of this vote from 1830, and it was gradually reduced
from 145,0001. to 131,854/. There was also to be a reduction
on the next vote. The vote for the compassionate allowances
was also to be reduced. Last year the vote was 102,000/., and
for the present year it was proposed to be 98,00 W. On
the vote for the pensions for Chelsea and Kil-
mainham, calculating the four quarters of last year,
there was a small increase in the estimate of last year
of 1,973!., which went to the establishment at Chelsea.
He now came to the out .pensioners, for whom the largest vote
in the service was reeuired. This year showed an increase of
43,383/., the whole charge being 1,236,0731. Last year the
charge wos 1,191,3151. It was necessary to explain the cause
of this increase. He found that there were 961 more men ott
this list than last year, whose pensions amounted to 14,0511.
The commuted pensions amounted to 1,500/., and others, of
' to 1,744, which would have re.

smaller amount,
duced this vote, but for the increase of numbers
to which he had referred. The Howe had relinquished
the charge formerly made on out-pensioners, on the payment
of their allowances, which had led to an increase of 50,0001.; but
he thought this was simply an act of justice, to which be wag
sure no one would for a moment object. Next there was a
charge of 60,0001., to which he wished to call particulsr