The Sun.
London, England, 1812-03-20 00:00:00

4sting. Whenever a proposition was made fo
Statesmen of different opinions to coalesce, it
Was a subject of much consideration. Different
Circumstances must lead to ,different decisions.
—The two most recent and most celebrated
coalitions were, that of Mr. Fox and Lord
North ; and subsequently that of Mr. Fox and
Lord Grenville. Let the House reco!leEt the cir-
!utnstances of those periods. The great political
ifferences between Mr. Fox and Lord North re-
-Irded America. Lord North advocated coercion,
r. Fox objeded to it. But it was not until the se-
'ation of America, and therefore not until this es-
fial political d.fference was removed that Lord
-th and Mr. Fox coalesced. Notwithstanding,
ever, the union was' formed on honourable
-the people were nut pleased with it. If
therefore, consequently unattended hbenefi-
Ted's, and ought to operate as a warning againit
tempt to form a Cabinet in 'contraditlion to
ntiments of the nation at large. With re-
the latter coalition, the chief political diffe-
between Mr. Fox and Lord Grenville bad
tom the French revolution. The one con-
.or war with France during that period, the
peace. When that revolution ceased, the'
and of political difference was removed, and
of Mr. Fox and Lord Grenville was most
ly, effected.: But at the present awful
ueriod the distresses of which he feared
rapidly increase), it was proposed to
ion in the Cabinet of persons who differed
in almost every point of forego and
obey. For instance, Administration
with a conscientious feeling), had deter-
nly not to relieve the Catholic:sof Ireland
disabilities under which they laboured,
to allow their case to be taken into
On the other hand,those who were
r Administration entertained opinions
te,t hitting it absolutely necessary
he Catholics, and declaring that they
err duty, if in the Cabinet, to advise
less the. Prince Regent to take the
it modes of carrying that object into
with respect to the disputes be-
lin and the United States of Ame-
e Noble Lords on his side of the
that the Orders in Council ought
.dministration, on, the controry,
'tug this important subjea under
either House of Parliament—,
e starving state of the iVlanufac-
tresses of every description of
ry, so determined were Mini-
ir system, that they would not
be a4itated ; they wculd not
pointmeni of a Committee to
er these circumstances of di
ion on questions of such vi-
pealed to- the House and to
is Noble Friends could have
they had done ? The No-
o a long argument in fa-
h Catholics from their disa-
ish might as well be asked
iel and to live on dry land,
all the subje6ts of the
on the same footing, and
l rights. Unless- any set
g to justify with-holding
it was tyranny to do so.
ry itself was intelerance,
attire would not be 1111 i.,
Uierting to America, he
'o contemplate not so
rohable future state of
tat in twenty years her
nust render her either
ai,lable foe. On the
, he returned his sin-
ids for the manliness
I. As there was no
\ere was no evil un-
t by the late occur-
ons of the country
public had been in
n to public men,
abused, when they
tie influenced by
some explanation
e evening of the
-y, at such a eh-
Noble Marquis,
Personal respect,
nerally acknow-
in' the course
duty to make,
is to the feel-
mover of the
vould be ten
)eld possibly
'ed for a mo-
f the Noble
twn, in The
ave thought
what were
re called to
their hopes
form an
if the No-
lly
insult-
of Lords
hich tile
nuud the
curable
nds did
and it
place,
•opped
'here,
e?--
that
r his
dual
tion
les,
ent
rat
ch
to

heard of the Circumstance until that evening) had
been declaiming violently against the Catholics.—
This had been a very common usage ever since the
Reformation. Had it increased so considerably within
the last -six weeks, as to afford a ground for les No-
ble Feiend's motion i• But then, in addition to this,
the extraordinary state of the press • had been ad-
duced in support of the motion. Was that a new
thing within the last six weeks > Certainly the press
teemed with strong attacks; but whence did they
come ? From what portion-of the press did they
proceed ? Was it because a part of the press was
audacious enougfi to bid defiance to all, decency,
that the House must agree to the motion of his
Noble Friend ? Adverting to the Noble and Learned
L'trd's argument in favour- of ,•the Catholics, he
obsrved, that tire Nobie and Learned Lord was a
convert on that subjea ; -for when in the Cabinet
he believed that the' Noble and Learned Lod 'had
not shewn himself a friend to Catholic emancipa-
tion. But the Noble and Learned Lord did not now
hesitate to pronounce it tyranny, if Government ex-
pressed ail- solicitude that the- fundamental prin-
ciples of society itself should not be overturned by
injudicious concessions. With respea to the necessity
of Parliamentary grounds for the motion, the House
must be persuaded that the Admieistration had lost
the confidence of the country. Was the House so
persuaded from the statements made by the
,NOble,
Mover ? •Was the House satisfied that the present
Government could not carry on the affiirs of the
state with success? if so,- then ample grounds were
afforded for the proposition.. But he would put it to
the candour, to the judgment, and to the experience
of the House to say, whether,' either bete or in the
other branch of the Legislature, there was 'apps-'
rently any difference of feeling in the country ; any
distrust of the Goverriment as to call for the inter-
ference of Parliament ? It Was for the House•to pro-
nounce whether or, not the coediict of " Ministers
,was so criminal, so utterly destitute in action of tair
principle, as to induce the adeption of a tiew step
completely inimical to the principles of the Consti-
tution ? He should, therefore, unless it could be
fairly shewn to him that such was the case, give his
decided negative to the motion, and support the
amendment.

Luotion.

•
Lord EitsrerNE,ln explanation, denied that he had
changed his opinions. - It -was, known when he was
administrauon, that the grand obstacle to dealing.
with 'Catholic Emancipation as now, was the im-
pra6lieability of effeeting objet. He in com-
mon with his coadjutors had acceded to the propo-
sition, but he. felt that if thee had, advancdd a 'step
further, it tv ould traveled to a dissolution of the
Administration of which he formed a part. (A
Laugh) Noble Lords, might be inclined to laugh
when he spoke of going ow of office, but they would
abstain, if they knew the necessity of preparation
before going in.
The LORD CHANCELLOR conceived - that if the
Noble and Learned. Lord 'thought that it was for
the general benefit of the subject that he should
take place,_ he Was.right ; bit if he thought that to
advocate the cause of the Catholics as a means of at-
taining office was right, then he was wrong. If he
could bring himself to be of the latter opinion he
should vote fore he motion, bat he must be convinced
that from the Revolution downwards the country had
aCted on erroneous pi inciples. Every man who enter-
tained principles similar to those of the founder of the
Revolution,ewho t.eld office upon opinions incompa-
tible with those principles, deserved public detesta-
tion., • His Noble Friend, in his introduatory obser-
vations on his motion, had taken great pains to
convince the House that he had biought it for-
ward with the best of motives. No one could
doubt the.assertioo. The Address- thep began with
the most complimentary language to the Prince Re-
gent, noticed the freedom from restrictions, and
the subsequent expedations entertained. in conse-
quence, and then went on to quarrel with the
only ad which his Royal Highness had done
sihce the restriction, and recommended the ne-
cessity of forming• an Administration calculated
tO conciliate the-affedions of the greatest part of the
subjects these realm's. The Noble Lord then
went en to argue that. the present Administration did
nut possess the affections of the people; and then,
thotigh he does not recommend, wishes a broad-
botiowed Administration, which of 'all others, under
circumstances, was the most mischievous thing that
could happen. Noble Lords seethed to be pleased ;
he was happy to give satisfaCtion, especially% hen
Noble Lords were so prone to be out of humour .w hi)
him for no cause. ' The Noble Lord had stated that
those persons who had refused to take the Petitions_
of the Roman Catholics live consideration were ob-
noxious ; were an Administration, • not hkely to
conciliate the affe&ions of the people. If so, he
trusted, the Noble Lord would, alter he had turned
that Adniioistration out, shcW to the a iouse where
an Administration was to be found 'which, should
conciliate the afnetions of the people. For his own
part, lie did most solemnly 'believe, thlt the, people
were so exceedingly weak and foolish, as to give the
present Ministers much more of their ailed ionate re,
gards than many Noble Lords would consent to ad-
mit. Would it be denied that the Prince Regent
has the right of chusiog his, Ministers, subject',
undoubtedly, to those- proper checks which the
Constitution provides ?• -After those servapts have
been,choen, then they became the responsible ad-
visers, and not befoe, or the Sovereign. His
Noble and Learned Friend would, tleeetore, forgive
him, if he said, that iu a strict Parliamentary sense,
the debate on one of the letters alluded to was
disorderly, because one of the standing orders of
the House was, that his Majesty's name should
not be mentioned in debate. It could not be used
for Parliamentary influence, as was strewn by the
Noble Lord's harangue, for half an hour, ,oh the
proceedings of the 13th *of February. The case
must be a strong one indeed, which cotsld induce
Parliament to interfere with the Crown, in . the
nomination of its Ministers; such a proceeding
would have the effect of destroying that responsibi-
lity in the Ministers which Noble Lords seemed so
desirous to establish. It would. be too much to say,
when his Royal Highness had in the'fitSt a 0 of his
authority appointed his Ministers, that Parliament
should go to him and say, " Your Royal Highness
has appolited an Administrationevhich does not pos-
sess the confidence oft he.cotintry,nor the aff:•dions of
the people, and therefore you must get rid of those
Ministers." Thp Noble Lord had stated that Par-
liament had refused to take into consderaiion the
Petitions of the subject. When, he would ask,
did such a Reiolution pass ?' The Petitiens of the

Catholics were not confornnable with the established
priiiciplos of the Revolution in 1688. At that Revo-
lution, religious freedom and religious toleration,

coilsisoint with national religion, were permitted to

their fillkst extent. To say, iherefore, that th::1 sort of
reiiginui olerdt ion, which was incompatible with the
E-tabiisited Religion of the State, was to be admitted,

was an algument which could not be trtdured. It
must not .be forgott6n, that at the Revolutiop, the

Crown was plated on the head of a Protestant. for
ever. The question of emancpation had never been
thought of by Mr, Pitt, and it was but in speeches
in Parliament, and from publications elsewhere, that
it had been comtnened upon. Securities had been
talked of. Would thegionse tell him what these pro-

posed securities were w The sentimes and opin:ons

of Mr. Pitt he would wish engraved on his tomb. All
that he required was a testimonial of his charaaer,

to have thus written-,--" The Itiend of Mr. Pitt."—
With respect to the sentiments of that illustrious
man, all he could say was, that he died without be-
ing able to te.ll him what those securities.meant. If
such was the opinion of Mr. Pitt, could he be
blamed for not agreeing to the proposition ? .There
was no wan more disposed than himself to concede

when it could be shewn that such conceslion ...vas for

le general interests of the State.

Witp respea to

re• state of the relations with .America, and the

system pursued towards that country, that system
was not really adoPted, it had been carried .on by
the Giwernment immediately preceding the one
now administering the affairs of the State. -He

must therefore obj-e6t to the argument which held
forth the
.country as being
.too tenack)us of. he-r

ghts. On the contrary, she had invariably pre-

_ .
_ . . .
served those rights with a proper. degree of reel-
ihgand respect to that nation, with whore it was
necessary to be on amicable terms. The Noble

and Learned Lord declared, that unless the Noble
Lotd could spew him some cause for the distniswal

, •
of the present Ministers, he was convinced that
he was iaterfering in a way petfealy unconstitu-
tional, and consequently he could not agree with the

Earl GREY was not prepared to make a profession
of political faith, however the Noble Lord might
call upon him so to do. He would advert, as well
as he was 'able,- to- all the topics which had been
urged, and afford as well as he could an adequate
explanation. Sentitnents had been imputed to him
dirthly contrary to those principles. which Le had

.. . .
ever professed, and that misrepreSentation of :,,k hiCh
be: complained might be -repeated. in a-. few d Ts,
nay, wiihin,a few hours. He was anxious to wale
h is opinioos upoo-tht question, not wishing to deny
___

:0 the Noble and Leaned Lord, that thj

was sObstantilily—a motion for the change of the

Adminiwation: He was convinced the Noble Loral

conid not have intended it for any othei purpose,'
nor could he Understand it in any other light,. The
into tion of ,the Noble Lotd, therefore, was to,pro-
cure the dismissal of Mini Stets as not being the Mi-
nisters of the- country, and wishing by the address
to procure an union of the abilities of the country,
competent, to.direa the powers of the Empire, and
the resources with benefit to the State. With this
View he was not disposed to deny to the Noble and
Learned Lord that the measure was a strong one.--
With sufficient grounds stated to Parliament, he con-
ceived that the Sovereign would listen to the suggei-
tion's of Parliament. It certainly was not a part of
the proceedings of this House to nominate to the
Crown the persons competent to form an• Admini-
stration : he had, however, till this .night, thought
that, on the statement of sufficient grounds for re-

moval,. an application from Parliament to remove
Ministers was always attended to, and the more
at this .important and momentous crisis of great dif-
ficulty and danger. The motion of the Nollse Lord
was legitimate and lawful—that could not be denied;
the question therefore would be, whether, in
_the
Address, the present Ministets had been truly de-
scribed as incapable of wielding the strength and re-
sources of the Empire, so necessary to its existence?
The questions to be considered were, in the first
place, whether the motion of the Address truly 'de-
scribed the Administration as in char:46ler and prin-

ciples inimical to the public interest ? and, secbadly,
whether those principles, and that charmer .thus
recognized, could be maintained with s.ecurity and
safety to the 'Empire, and without.endangeting the
Establishment in Church and State ? Now, of what

materiols .were they composed ? They were in • fad
an Adminisirrition upon resistance. to Catholic
Claims. What had.been the general conduct of the

head'of that Administration since his elevation to
power ? \Vhy, an unqualified and eternal resistor), e
to Catholic Emancipation, as tending to the ahsolote
dtzstruttiou of all security in Church and State; that
opposition, the Head ot. the Administration was
ready to maintain, and to support the principle of
eternal exclusion to all classes of his fellow subjeas.
Wherever the Head weut the rest must 10111 w.---
The Noble Secretary had said often, th it Parlia-
ment had' gone to the limit of cnnee,aion. The
Noble atu Learned Lord had said that the fund -

menial principles of the Constitution would forbid
the-granting of the Claims. Would he state that he
differed from the Head of the Administration in re
spent to opinions upon the subjea? \VoulJ the
new. addition to this strength in the Executive
Government '(Lord Castlereagh),:,vould he, for he'
w,as an eminent person in politics, world be dissent
from his colleagues'? with such an Administration
formed on principles to'resistCatholic Claims ? It had
been said by a Noble Lord, that he had never heard
of the denunciations (alluded to by his Noble
Friend) against the Catholics. These denunciations
had been frequent and loud' for the last thre'e weeks.
They had proceeded from the pulpit in sermons,
which on certain occasions had produced to the
pre.i-cher much benefit. One of these Rev. Preachers
had been lately Gazetted as one of the Prince Re-
gent's Private Chaplains.- These were strong and un-
deniable proofs of the intolerance of the present Ad-
ministration—of the pr(dite&ion for exclusion, corl,_7
trary to the genuine principles of the British Consti-
tution. The Noble and Learned Lord had said ftere
was nothing so mischievous as 'what was generally
vulgarly termed a broad-bottomed Administrat-on
there certainly was nothing so, mischievous, when
forming an Administration upon a liberal basis, a, to
compose it of persons possessing discordant prin-
ciples, which could not in any wise coniribute to
the safety or security of the'Empire. lie therefore
was' disposed to give credit to the Noble and Learned
Lord for not wishing to extend the Administiation
upon a basis which should provide for the security
1 the Euipise. It tepotts were to b 4 credited, the

present Administration were- to receive an aecessitna
of strength which
_perhaps they thought would bea
refit the State. But what benefit cou;cl arise from.
the conjunction of men who were the de ermined
enemies of religious liberty, who professed to at
upon principles of exclusion to Catholics ? There
wereetwo Ts*Sreble Lords whom .he sae., who were
reported as likely to give.strength to, , his weak Ad-.
ministration. He did not know whether the de-
voted vietims to place had recei -ed from the Prime
Miniver any communication of their intended dis.
grace. But these two Noble Lords had professedly
avowed determined
.principles, of exclusion: One of
the Noble Lords had revived the Coronation 0 th;
as being an insupenble bar to the cliiims of, the.
Cetholics being allowed. In short, at all points
they had been armed with the cry of—No Popeiy.-
WaS this an adminhitration coespeteet to an the
purposes and objeas for which Administration was
formed ? Was it not an Administration rather: oh-e
nexious to the people ? Would seen an Admi-
, istration conciliate the seTeellons of the people i
The necessity of conciliation was Fppare,nt. Much
liad been ..said of the principles of tire Revolution ;
he was, however, prepared to deny_ that tire rile-
ciples of the 'Revolution were such as now stated;
the disabilities then imposed were ditlerent from
three at present insisted upon ; those disabilities
were connected with certeirt poiitical incepacitiea
which preeented them from receiving what they
dernanded. When the necessity for imposing these
restraints seased, Alien to continue them became
tyranhy at the very worst description. The question .
to examine was, whether any danger was to be ap-. -
preheaderi to the State, from the existence of these
disabilities; or rather from nhe removal of them i?
Sp.far from wishing to restrain the CarholiCs' from
the exercise of their rights (as he would contend) in
common with their fellow subjects, he was for ex-
tending to all classes,of the subjeasof these reAmit
that emancipation from restriction which they were
entitled to. What danger was to be apprehended '
from such concession ? He had the right' to a,k 016
Noble and Learned Lord to d hew where, the danger
existed, before he was called upon to produce secu-
rity against !he existence of danger in the event of
the rearm/al of the restrietions. rite danger existed
in the continuation of these restriaions, which would
deprive the Erupirc.of the assistance of nearly four
millions of her population, which, if unrestrained;
would contribute materially to the strength and ad-
vantage of the Stare. The Noble, and Learned
Lord had said that Mr. Pitt, though he propos-
ed the Measure Of concession, was not enabed
to tell him what the securities for the due per-
foemance of the agreement were. The fad was,
that the expeaation was held out to the Catholic-,
and therefore when the Noble Lord talked of nut
bring able to ascertain what these securities were,
be strewed that the condu6t of. Mr. Pat was a
a mete prete; ce—a delusion held out. to deceive
Parliament. When the Catholics had experienced
from time to time various concessions, had they not
the right to expec=t, in conformity with the promise
held out to them, that further concession would he
mide ? Had they not the right. to hope that they
should ultimately obtain the fair object of their am-
bition ? Such had been the opinion of some of the
most enlightened Statesmen. Mr., Fox, Mr. Butte,
and some others had been of that opinion. In
1'793, and in 1795, these hopes had been held out,
though in the follossieg years these hopes had been
damped by the scenes of blood and torture which
occurred, and which had not beets exceeded by the
bore es of the French "Revolution—scenes which
made every English heart bleed., The Union
been obtained upon terms, which not being fulfilled,
had operated to the disgrace of the country ; that
measure had been carried into effed by the Catho-
lics, upon a direct understanding, that in the United
ParliaMent their claims should be attended to.—
If the House could put themselves in the sittraiion
of the Catholics, with their expectations blasted,
what would bea their feelings upon the occasion ? -
Was, it matter of much surprise, that- discontent
should arise ? Was it matter of astonishment, that
finding themselves duped, they eilebited chagrin.?
The expectation still remained,' and it was for the
responsible advisers of the Prince Regent to, an-
swer, for he would not believe that his Royal High-
ness would induce hopes .which could never bo
aealized. It could never be expected that the
" new era" would be an era of bigotry and super-
tition. The proposition of the Noble Mover was
to form an Administration that should conciliate
the affections of the people. He doubted :ouch
whether the people of En:;land were against Catho-
lic Emancipatioth He belieVed that if a new set of
mess were called into power, the 'Measure would be
carried with little difficulty. With rested to the
letter signed by his Noble Friend and himself, they
therin stated that they would not accept of office
upon any other terms, than those that recommended
the adoption of those measures of conciliation to
the Catholic*, so necessary, in his opiniolr, to the
safety of the State. The. very terms of it cut off
the probability of jon&ion with the present Admi-
nistration. It was written not in the temper ct ex-
clusion for however warm he might be its political
conflifl4, no man could accuse-hini of being subject
to- political resentment. When ditferSmaes upon
great political matters should cease, he would not
be averse to unite, if such union could be advanta-
geous to the State. But he would ask Noble Lords
opposite, did they really expel, that, with the views
which he and his friends entertained, they could
'cordially join the present Administration, for ism
Must take it for granted, that, being the consite-
tional advisers of his Royal Highness, they advised
the letter which had been sent to his Noble Friend
and himself ? He would ask them, with' feelings
such as he and his Noble Friend possessed, would
they have
,accepted offices upon those terms ?
Would they consent to defeat all these expe'tations
which the Catholics knew they were pledged to ?
The Noble Lord then proceeded to discuss the to-
pics contained in the Address ,and with respea. to,
America, he denied, if it was imputed him, that he
would lay at the feet of America all the glory ref tire
nation, by gi%itsg up her national rights. He telt
most imperiously the necessity of preserving them.
As to the circulation of the country, he was dispos-
ed to adhere to the opinion which he had always
entertaiiied, that it was necessary to revert to those
tine principles which in a free State were the essen-
tial requisites, and without which the trade of the
country could not be placed upon its true basis. He
would not therefore remain :a, Member of that Go-
vernment which declared that it was necessary to