The Sun.
London, England, 1840-06-19 00:00:00

TIMBER DUTIES BILL.

On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX-
CHEQUER the House went into Committee on this Bill.
CANADA GOVERNMENT BILL.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL having moved the third
reading of this Bill, said, he had considered the pro-
posals made, and he had resolved to adopt the recommen-
dation of the Right Hon. Bart, the Member for Tamwmth,
that the debts contracted by the province should not form
a charge upon the consolidated revenue before the civil
charges. He would not adopt the Right Hon. Baronet's
advice to the representative body. Then his Right Hon.
Friend the Member for Coventry had advised the ornis.
sion of all the clauses as to district councils. Upon the whole,
as there were so many objections, he proposed to leave out
the clauses giving extensive powers to the councils.
He was most anxious that the Bill should pass
with every possible unanimity.—( Hear, hear, hear. )
If anything should be lost by the omission of the clauses in
p.,int of advantage to the Provinces, he thought infinitely
mere would be gained by the general agreement of the
House to the Bill in the shape he now proposed it.
Mr. ItUQE wag sorry to have heard the sp tech of the
NAL:. Lord, because much that was good in the
Bill was now, it appeared, to be Ulcer' out, and
the p. eple were to be altogether deprived of the
selt-ge‘ernment of their own resources. The Noble
Lord would lied that he would not arry the opinions of
the purple of Canada with him. He knew how useless
it ,A its to off, r any opposition to a proposition from the Go.
ve:nmcnt connected with the Colonies, whatever it might
he ; but by must enter his protest against the course pursued
by the Noble Lord, because it would leave the Canadas
without these district. and local Courts to manage their af.
faers.until the Assembly should have time to make same ar-
rangement. He begged to enter his protest against the
partial dc struetiun of the little that was useful in the
Bill —( A laugh,) He thought a general amnesty should
be passed before the Bill of the Noble Lord was adopted
by the House. He wished to ask the Noble Lord whether
the Habeas Corpus were still suspended in Canada ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said in answer to the question of
the Hon. Member, that as regarded the suspension of the
Habeas Corpus, he believed that, according to the last
accounts, that suspension continued still.
Sir C. GREY hoped that the Hon. Member for Kil-
kenny, would not press his objections to the establishment
of Councils.

Sir ROBERT PEEL said that he approved of the
main provisions of the Bill of the Noble Lord.
He thought that the establishment of the Civil List
was one of the best provisions of the measure. He
did not mean to imply any opinion adverse to the prin-
ciple of local authorities, fur he could easily believe that
great good could accrue from the establishment of such
local authorities, under whatever name they might be
called, having the power of taxation for local objects, but
at the sane time ho thought it would be better to leave
the constitution of such authorities to the local legislature.
He thought it was a great experiment they were about to
make, and one of doubtful issue. He somewhat doubted
the policy of establishhig the district council simultane-
ously with the new legislature, and thought it would be
better deferred until they should be able to decide what its
powers should be, and how defined. On these grounds,
therefore, be concurred with the Noble Lord as to the
policy of omitting these clauses from the Bill. The
despatches confirmed his intention to support the Bill.
The papers also went to show that this was the most
proper and favourable crisis for the union of the provinces.
He could not conclude without the most cordial prayer
that the measure would promote the interests of this co-
lony, as dear to the Imperial Parliament as any portion of
our empire.—(Cheers.)
Sir T. COCHRANE thought, on the discussion that
had taken place on this subject, too little attention had been
paid to the extent of the colonies ; and he was afraid, let
the seal of Government be placed where it would, the ef-
fect of this measure would be not to secure good govern-
ment to Canada. He thought the Bill would be the vir-
tual declaration of the independence of Canada.—( Hear,
hear.) He looked forward. to the joining of ihe provinces
With great apprehension and dismay before they were pre-
pared for it, and especially when it was. considered that
,that union bid been forced on by the action* of Democrats.
Tbli measure would abOrtly be discussed in another place,
and he hoped, with that absence of party feeling with
which it:intd been discussed in 'hat House.—( Hear, hear.)
He hoped as the 'wives were of one common stock, so
they would long continue tolhave one common interest.—
( Hear, hear. )
Mr. HUME sail, having stated his objections to
eithdrawo g what he consi..ered to be one of the
be:st parts of the Bill, he should record that objection
by teking a division of the House. He thought this
should n t have been done, and particularly witmeut no-
nce. He wished to ask, until these district councils
were funned, ii. %hat manner the affairs of the country
wr re to be colainc,ed?

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, entertaining still the
same opinion as to the district councils, he nevertheless
thought it Letter to leave the whole government to the
Legi,ilature.
Mr. HUME said, Drier the explanation of tLe N.ble
Lord. he should not divide the House.

The Bill was then read a third timo and passed.
POOR-LAW 13LL.

Sir E. KNATCHBULL asked the Noble Lord (J.
Russell) when he meant to bring forward the second
re: ding of the Poor-law Amendment Bill?
Lord J. RUSSELL—Certainly pot until after the
Irish Registration 13111.—(Loud Laughter.)
In answer to a further question, the Noble Lord said
that if he were unable to carry the Poor-law Amendment
Bill during the present Session, he proposed continuing
the Poor-law Commission another year.
POLICE RATES ASSESSMENT BILL.

On the motion to go into Committee on this Bill,
Sir P.,. W ILMOT begged to call the attention of the
Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) to the expense thrown upon
certain rural districts in Warwickshire, in consequence of
the late riots at Birmingham, and to ask whether it was
his intention to introduce any remedial provision into this
Bill on the subject ?
Lord J. RUSSELL admitted that there was some hard-
ship in the case, but could not say it was the intention of
the Government to introduce any provision of the kind re.
ferred to in the Bill.

Sir R. PEEL thought the present system operated
very unfairly on the rural districts, and that some remedy
should be devised.

Mr. HUME was one who wished to see the rural dis-
tricts entirely separated from the towns. He also wished
to ask the Attorney-General when there would be a de-
cision as to the validity of the acts of the Birmingham
Corporation.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said there was a cause
now pending, and be had no doubt there would be a deci-
sion confirming the validity of these acts.
The House then went into Committee, and the several
clauses were agreed to without material alteration.
Mr. FOX MAULE proposed clauses to limit the rate
to sixpence in the pound, and to continue the Act for one
sear, which was agreed to.
Several other clauses were brought up, and added to
the Bill.

The Report was ordered to be brought up tomorrow,
and the House resumed.
COUNTY CONSTABULARY BILL.

Mr. F. MAULE moved the further consideration of
the Report of the Committee on this Bill, when
Mr. HODGES presented a petition from Sussex
against it.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL thought the Bill would
entail an expense on the counties, which could be appre-
ciated only by a few persons. He blamed the Govern-
ment for not having brought the Bill under the considera-
tion of the House of Cornmons at an earlier period. -He
bought the whole question of rural police should be re-
considered, with a view to the producing some
satisfactory measure on the subject.— ( Hear, hear.)
The Bill went to establish a military force in the country,
and to place that force under the control of the Govern.
ment; and he could not but object to such a measure.
The expense which it would entail on the counties was
another reason why he could not give it his approval.
The Hon. Baronet concluded by moving that the Bill
should be referred to a Select. Committee.
Mr. RICE supported the niotion for tlr, re-committal
of Ow Bill. The measure would not, he was persuaded,
be attended with the expense to the counties which the
Right lion. Baronet the Member for East Kent seemed
to apprehend.
Mr. I3ENETT was opposed to the Bill, and he
thought that the state of the country did nut render its
enactment necessary. If they were to have a rural police
at all, they should, in his opinion. place it under a central
control, end its expenses ought be paid out of the general
fonds °I the country.

Mr. GALCYIiNIGHT hoped the House would not
keep the country in suspense any longer. Many counties
had not adopt( d the system in consequence of toe several
systems that had been proposed by various Members.
Mr. L. BRUGES was in favour of the measure gene-
rally, but thought that the compulsory adoption of it
would by attended with much inconvenience to many
counties.

Mr. HALFORD rose to support the amendment. He
thought the measure should be more maturely discussed,
as it affected so many important relations of society, He
could not see how Hon. Gentlemen could reconcile the
present measure with their ideas of liberty and freedom.
He thought it wgs the duty of Conservatism to protect the
liberty of the subject. The PelintY tR whipl 414elPlIged
viere among the first to adopt the e proposition, but they had
done so under a wrong impression. Hon. Gentlemen said
the increased demoralization of the veople required new
l alit. r.igulations Why, that was inconsistent with the
cry fcr new franchise. Now It was said the o:d parochial
constables were grown inefficient—he thought that was
a proof of the innocence and simplicity of the inhabitants.

People comp! hied of Ow ontel;rl emHahles ; he f.,r one
timuvht flat t%.• urpid 11,g:z!,.recy.w:Is eiltit;ed to as much
blame, but still he was not prepari d to Dive up the unpaid
M!!gistr,!ci!.
Mr. FLUME considered that one of the best means of
preserving I;berty was to preserve peace, and to that end
establish an effective police force. He thought more
power ought to be given to rate-payers in a measure of
this description, and he was of opinion, also, that there
ought to be more liberal grants for education, for that
alone could prevent the increase of crime. Those Hon.
Gentlemen who opposed the Corn-laws compelled the Go-
vernment to propose an increase in the police force.
Lord G. SOMERSET
,was in favour of the amend-
ment, but he would not vote for it if he thought it would
defeat the measure.
Mr. F. M A ULE believed the effect of the amendment
would be to defeat the measure. If there was any sub-
stantial reason to postpone the measure, he would give it
his best consideration. Any amendments might be
considered in Committee on the Bill. He thought
the fairest way to deal with this question would
be to allow the Bill to go into Committee, in order
that the clause might be discussed seriatim ; and if the
House adopted that course, he should be ready to attend
to any suggestions that Hon. Members might make.
Mr. DARBY supported the motion of his Right Hon.
Friend the Member for Kent for referring the Bill to a
Select Committee, considering the objections were so nu-
merous that they could not be properly considered unless a
Select Committee was appointed.
Mr. HODGES defended the Bill. He thought refer-
ing it to a Select Committee would subject it to uneeces.
sary delay.
After a few words from Mr. PLUMPTRE, the House
divided; when there appe:red—
For the original motion
For the amendment ...

Majority for the original Motion —66
On our admission into the gallery, we found
Mr. G. KNIGHT on his legs, suggesting that a sum
of money should be taken out of the consolidated fund
towards the expense of the constabulary. As the public
generally were interested in the suppression of crime,
he wished to know whether the Government would agree
to that ?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the Government
would act upon the Report of the Commissioners.
The House then went into Committee on the Bill.
On clause 1 being put, which gave the power to Jus-
tices of the Peace to increase the number of police,
Mr. DARBY and Mr. HUME objected to the clause.
Sir ROBERT PEEL supported the Clause as it only
applied to those counties which were willing to accept the
Bill. He thought it would be an improvement to allow
ural parishes to juin together fur the payment of their
constables.
Mr. LUDLOW BRUGES moved at line 12, after
the word "increase," to oint all the words to the end of
the clause, and substitute the following words, namely,
" or reduce the number of' constables for their county so
that the number of such constables shall not exceed at any
time the proportion of one constable for every thousand
of the inhabitants, according to the last census."
Sir E. KNATCHBULL thought the suggestion of
the Right Hon. Baronet worthy of the cons-deratton of the
House.
Dr. NICHOLL thought that some parts of the amendment
of his Hon. Friend were totally unnecessary, especially that
part of it which was to give the power of reducing the
number of police.
Mr. F. M AUL E would consider the suggestion that
had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet, and see if he
could introduce it in the Bill; but as to the amendment
proposed, if it was persisted in, he should propose to leave
out the clause and proceed with the other parts of the Bill.
Lord G. SOMERSET thought there should be a
power given to the Magistrates to reduce the number of
the police when counties were in a state not to require
them.
After a few observations from Mr. D kRBY,
Mr. HUME said he entirely concurred in what bad
fallen from the Right Hon Baronet. They might have
had a very effective police establishment without the ex-
pease that would be created by the present Bill to the
rate payers.
Lord J. RUSSELL observed that the efficiency and
vigour of the police in a great measure depended upon
their being so organized, as to have no connection with the
place to which they were sent. If power was given to
the rate-payers to choose their constables, and these con-
stables were to reside permanently in the parish, he would
be afraid, however efficient they might be at first, that
that efficiency would soon become very much diminished,
and that although they would have a tolerable acquaint-
ance with the different persons in the neighbourhood, yet
that in a few years their vigour and energy to put down
depredations would be very much wanting.
Sir R. PEEL thought that small rural districts ought
to have its own police under its own superintendence, be-
cause, where a county was divided into districts, a portion
of that district might contain a great many towns, such as
the iron districts for instance, and the rural districts might
have a very good objection to a rate which they might
conceive was heavier than it would be if they formed a dis-
trict of themselves.
Sir H. VERNEY was of opinion there ought to be a
centralised plan wider an efficient head, and that that bead
should be responsible to the Government.
After some further conversation, in which Major Wood,
Colonel Sibthorpe, Lord Ingestrie, Dr. Nichol!, and Mr.
Slaney took part, the amew'ment was negatived without a
division, and ti e clause was agreed to. -
On clause 2 being proposed, which provided exemption
from tolls,
-Mr. EGERTON said the clause was perfectly
novel, and lie did not understand upon what prinCiple
it had been introduced.
Mr. FOX AIAULE replied that it had been taken
from the Irish Bill, bet the provision would only apply to
police on duty.
Mr. EGERTON observed that there were scarcely any
turnpikes iti Ireland ten mileS out of Du'nliii.—(Laughter.)
The chose, however, eas ape( d to, as ens else the next
clause.
On clause 4 being put,
Mr. BLACKBURN moved an addition to it, by which
towns with 10,000 iteatbitants, and having a Local Act,
should be exempted from the operation of the Act.
Mr. FIT ZROY supported the amendment.
Mr. FOX MAULE opposed it.
The clause was finally ordered to stand part of' the Bill.
The remaining clauses up to 10 were then agreed to,
without any discussion.
On clause 11 being put,
Mr. HUME objected to the principle of the clause, li
Which provided pensions for superannuated members of the
police force.
General JOHNSTONE also objected to the clause,
and expressed his determination to divide the Committee
on it.
Mr. WYNNE supported the clause, on the ground
that he bad often known parties continued in the police
force under the present system, who were totally unfitted
to discharge its duties.
The Committee then divided, when the numbers were—
For the clause
Against the clause
Majority
The clause was then ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 12 and 13, as amended, were afterwards
agreed to.
Clause 14 was agreed to without any amendments.
Clause 15 was agreed to with a few verbal amendments.
Clause 16 was also agreed to.
On clause 17 being put,
Mr. PEA SE proposed, as an amendment, to insert the
words, " as the said Judges shall see fit."
A desultory discussion ensued, which terminated in
strangers being ordered to withdraw, but no division took
place, as Mr. Pease did not press his amendment.
The clause was then agreed to, as were clauses up to
20, with a few verbal amendments.
Then CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and obtained
leave to sit again on Monday.
RATING STOCK IN TRADE.
On the motion of the ATTORNEY-GENERAL,
leave was
.given to bring in a Bill to exempt stock in
trade, and other personal property, from being liable to
be reted to the relief of the poor.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, I
and the House adjourned at a Quarter-past One.