The Sun.
London, England, 1840-02-12 00:00:00

THE SUN. LONDON, T UES D AY, FEBR IT APi jl. 1 40.

THE STJN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 12,

Ecclesiastical Court. He held in his hand the-thicree
of the Right Hon. Genders-I.in himself, stating that
John Thorogood had been cited to that Court by
others.—( Hear, hear.) The Right lion. Gentleman
had also stated that no rational man would support so
crude and ill digested a measure es that which he (Mr.D.)
bad proposed. That certainly was but a very poor
compliment to himself, but he could tell the Right Hon.
Gentleman and the House that the same measure bad
received the sanction and approbation of the most en-
lightened of the Dissenters.—( Hear. hear.) But the
House had it-elf last year passed a resolution in prin-
ciple the same as the Bill be now proposed, and he
therefore tt usted the House would not stultify itself by
rejecting his motion.
The Hous3 then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion e2
Against it
_ _ .

Majority against the motion ... ---55
COURT OF SESSION (SCOTLAND).
Mr. WALLACE rose to move for the appointment
of a Select Committee to inquire into the administra-
tion of the law in the Supreme Court of Session in
Scotian], with a view to ascertain whether the number
of the Judges might not be diminished. It appeared
from the returns that five Judges in the Outer House,
as it was called by his countrymen, had, in 1831, 1,956
Causes before them, and is 1838 only 1,486 causes,
Showing a diminution of nearly 25 per cent. By the
last return it appeared that the number of causes
enrolled before Lord Moncrieff, last year, was
only 216, whilst Lord Cunniughame, in the same
period, had more thou doubled the number. In what
was called the Inner House, eight Judges, sitting in the
two Courts of Review, in 1831, decided 495 causes,
whereas the same number of Judges in the same Court
decided only 238 causes in 1839. Those 'Courts had
more than six months'vacation, and in the case of Mr.
Jones, which he mentioned last year, and which was
spread over a period of 41 months, the Court sat but
16 months. The duty had been for the last year effi-
ciently discharged to the satisfaction of the profession
and the suitors, in the absence of two of the Judges,
and a third was rendered by his age incapable of de-
voting much attention to the business of his Court.
Having no desire to do anything that could be offensive
to those Learned Lords, he was twilling to leave the
inquiry in the hands of the Government, if the Noble
Lord who was the leader of that House would undertake
the appointment of the Committee, for he was satisfied
that the result of the inquiry would in that case be
satisfactory to the aountry.
Mr. FOX MAULE said that it was not the inten-
tion of the Government to offer any opposition to the
motion. As the House last Session had given an in-
crease of salary to the Scotch Judges, it was bound to
inquire into the complaints which were very generally
made as to the manner in which justice was adminis-
tered in Scotland. It was desirable to ascertain whether
the number of Judges was greater then the business of
their Courts required. But he believed that the Com-
mittee would have to inquire into other matters respect-
ing which there was considerable dissatisfaction. He
begged to suggest to the Hon. Member for Greenock
to leave the selection of the Gentlemen who should
form the Committee to him, and he would take care
to name such Members from both sides as would give
the Judges and the country a perfect confidence in their
impartiality.
Sir GEORGE CLERK could not give a silent
vote upon this question. In opposing, similar motions
upon former occasions, he had been satisfied with leav-
ing the House to decide upon the arguments of her
Majesty's Government. When this motion was last
brougut forward, it was only supported .by the Hon.
Member for Kilkenny and the Hon. Member for For-
far, and it was opposed by the Attorney-General and
the Lord Advocate. There could not be a greater
triumph given to the gentlemen who opposed the Bill
for increasing the salary of the Judges, than the appoint-
ment of this Committee. He did not think a Committee
was a proper mode of inquiry. The whole subject
had been inquired into before a Commission, which
had reported, and that Report had been adopted.
Five years had not elapsed in Scotland without a most
important alteration in the administration of justice in
that country. The Court of Admiralty, the Consistory
Court, and the Court of Exchequer had been abolished,
and he apprehended—if it was not the fact, he had no
doubt the Hon. Member for Greenock would contra-
dict it—that that Hon. Member bad given his support to
the Government, upon the condition that they would
uphold his motion. He should therefore think it his
duty to vote against the appointment of the Committee.
Mr. HUNIE thought her Majesty's Government
were only acting as the public had a right to expect
they should. He thought the worst kind of economy
was that of rendering the number of Judges less than
was requisite for the public service, but the public had.
a right to insist that there should be no more than was
requisite for that purpose. All he wished was inquiry
on the suuject. 'He was surprised the Hon. Baronet
should object to inquiry being made when the subject
was the administration of justice in Scotland.
Mr. GILLON said be thought the salaries of the
Judges should be apportioned to the duties they had to
perform. He could hear on all sides of the immense
load of business the English Judges had to perform,
but it was not disputed that.the duties of the Scotch.
Judges were very inadequate to the large salaries they
received. He found, on a computation of 8 hours per
day, the Judges of the First Division sat but 34 days in
the course of 12 months, Wes° of the Second Division
but 26 days, and the Lord Ordinary 47 days and 8
hours. He thought, therefore, the people of Scotland
had a right to demand inquiry on the subject.
Mr. PRINGLE objected io the motion, because he
thought there should be some end to the discussion of
questions with which, Session after Session, and Par-
liament after Parliament, the people of Scotland had
been vexed. Some time ago a Committee was al,-
pointed on the subject, which thoroughly investigated it,
and in consequence of whose Report an Act of Parlia•
merit was passed to the satisfaction ofall parties, and he
thought it unnecessary to disturb the arrangements
then made. He thought in granting the present Corn- •
mittee the Government were &erecting the Judges of
Scotland ; and he should, on these grounds, oppose
the appointment of• the Committee.

. Mr. STEW.ART rose for the purpose of support-
ing the motion of the Honourable Member for Green-
neck. They had, been told that the inquiry was one
which the House could not enter into.' He was, how-
ever of a different opinion. At a time when the House
was contend:ng for its pi irileges upon another question,
be should like to know why their power should be de-
nied in an investigation of the present nature. He had
heard of Honourable Members making speeches
in favour of motions which they were opposed
to, and be thought that was the case with the
Honourable Member for Stafford. Much of what that
Honourable Member had alleged, would go far to
support the views of the Hon. Member for Greenock.
He should say, for his part, that the present Court of
Session did not pcssess the confidence 'of the S.,:ottish
people, which it was most important they should have.
If the proposed inquiry were instituted under the care
of the Government, and if the Committee were com•
posed of intelligent Members of both sides of the
House, he !achieved the results might be most useful.
Mr. HOPE should oppose the proposed inquiry,which
he saw no reason for entering, into. It had been said
that there was some dissatistaction in Scotland
with regard to the conduct of the present Judges, but
no reason had been assigned for that dissatisfaction, and
the House and the Government could not take any pro-
ceedings on such a feeling. The reasons assigned for
the proposed inquiry bad been refuted on a former oc-
casion by the Lord-Advocate—by the Learned Attor-
ney-General, and had been scouted by all sides of the
House. He complained that under these circumstances
the Government should seem willing to enter into the
inquiry. That inquiry he thought ws-nothing better
than an impeachment of those who administer justice in
Scotland—he would maintain that it would be tanta-
mount to a vote of censure against those Judges, and be
accordingly oppose it.—( Hear, bear.)
The LORD ADVOCATE said that though lie
did not coincide in all that had fallen from the Hon.
Member for Greenock-, he still thought the proposed
inquiry should take place, and he would not hesitate to
state his grounds for that opinion. It was his belief
the results of that inquiry would prove very beneficial.
He believed that if the case should be duly inquired
into, much useful information might be brought for-
ward. He did not join with those who corn•
plained of the number of days which the Courts
in Scotland sat. He thought that that could be
no test or criterion of the efficiency with which they
discharged their duties. Neither was that a fair index
of the quantity of business, which had been carried on.
The time taken in pleading before the Judges was not
fhe only test of their labours. There was another sub-
ject, however, on which complaints had unfortunately
been made, and he should admit that from the nature
of those Courts, and from the changes which had taken
place in them, a considerable dissatisfaction prevailed as
to the manner in which they discharged their duties.
He did not say that of the outer House, for he
believed that there was not a single being, either in or
out of the profession, who did not approve of the
manner in which business bad been conducted there ;
but he spoke solely of the.lnner House. It was said
that the Judges there did not state their opinions in a
manner as explicit as justice would require, and in a
way which would show that the interests of the suitors

bad been duly cens_Heol. He 441 not. Fee any means
of meeting this compiaint, except through the authority
of a Committee t> the House of Commons, under the
sanction of the GovernMent, and composed of Mem-
bers who would carefully addreis themselves to the sub-
ject. The exact amount ef labour to be performed
did not seem to him (the Lord Advocate) the true
criterion of salary. He rather thought. that having a
certain number of Judges, while they remained so, they
should be supported in prof er and becoming dignity.—
( Hear, hear.) There was no impeachment of the eon-
stitution of the Court in inquiring, however, if the nurnbsr
of Judges could be reduced. Ile did not think they cod ?,
but he knew many people did. And to satisfy the public
mind he thought an investigalion under the sanction of
Government would be effective. On the teasel thee e
fore, he was inclined to support the motion.
Sir It. PEEL wondered how any of those who had
voted for increasing the salaries of the Scotch Judges,
should have done so on any ground of increased labour.
He had not done so. He thought such a principle dan-
gerous. He considered that every public officer should
dedicate his whole time to the public service—that his
whole time was purchased for the country.—(Hear,
hear.) NON he had voted for the increased salary on
the ground that he thought the salary not sufficient ; for
he considered that the remuneration of Judges should
have such a superiority over, or at least such an equality
with, the average receipts of the head members of the
Bar, as to secure for the Bench the services of
the most able and experienced.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
He wondered greatly how the Honourable Member
for Greenock slutuld think it worth his while to have
meta a Committee as this, seeing that it was not to be
under his guidance, but the Government—under the
direction of men who had much of their minds against
him—(Hear, hear)—of men who thought that the e-
form and reduction which he argued for were unneces-
sary.—(Hear, hear.) Well, why did they not tell the
House that boldly, and resist the inquiry ?—(Hear,
hear.) If an inquiry were always to be conceded to
public clamour, why should not a similar concession be
made in the case of the English Judges, as to whom
. the Government could not have made up their minds
more decisively than in the case of the Scotch Judges ?
Therefore, on that point, if the mind of the Govern-
ment were made up, and the mind of the profession
were made up, he could not conceive what ground
they could have for entering on inquiry.--( Hear, hear.)
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had said that he
thought four Judges preferable to three in the constitu-
tion of the Court ; and the Hon. Gentleman on his
right hand had said that he had made up his mind on
the subject. Of course these Gentlemen would still
maintain their opinions, and the Hon. Gentleman was
willing to leave this inquiry in the hands of the Git,.•
vernment, while, at the conclusion of it, if he attempt
to interfere, be would be told that the Government have
already made up their minds on the subject.—(Hear,
hear.) For, be it remembered, it was the Govern-
ment who was to have the appointment of the
Committee—it was the Government who was to
have the appointment of Chairman, who would have to
draw up the Report.—(Hear, hear.) But the Hon.
Gent. said that inquiry was necessary in order to remove
certain erroneous impressions as to the conduct of the
Judges. Several persons thought the judges were not
sufficiently'patient in hearing the long law arguments
of Counsel.—(A laugh.) gow he (Sir It. Peel) would
ask, how could they possibly come to a satisfactory con-
clusion on that point without the examination of the
Judges themselves.—(Cheers.) How could they do so,
without a personal inquiry of every Judge, why he had
not listened with more patience to the arguments in
some particular case.—(Hear, hear.) If they made a
general allegation of want of patience, the judges would
make a general denial of such allegation. They must
hove some particular case. Now suppose the Judge, if
' pressed, should say that in that case he found the Counsel
so tedious, and consuming the public time by such
frivolous and irrelevant arguments, that he deemed it
his duty, having made up his mind on the case, to
interfere and prevent his proceeding? He (Sir R.
Peel) would certainly in such a case be inclined to
side with the Judge, more especially when he recol-
lected having heard at the bar of the House of Lords a
Scotch Counsel speak for eleven hours.—(Cheers.)
The LORD ADVOCATE—A Counsel in ono
case spoke far sixteen hours.— ( Loud laughter.)
Sir R. PEEL—The Hon. Member in his anxiety to
do honour to the Scotch bar, had said that he (Sir R.
Peel) had been guilty of an injustice to the anxiety and
zeal of the members of that bar, for their 'clients, in
understating the length of the speeches at eleven hours,
whereas it appeared that sixteen hours was the
ordinary time consumed in the speech of a Scotch Coun-
sel.—(Cheers and laughter.) Now could anything be
more ridiculous than calling on one of those Learned
Judges to state his reasons at the eighth or ninth hour
—(Load laughter)—'having long before made up his
mind, interfering to put a stop to the arguments of
Counsel, who was thus wantonly consuming the public
time ?—( Loud laughter.) Besides, how degrading would
such a course be.—(Cheers.) Of course the patient
Judges would be exempted from inquiry—that is to say,
those Judges who were too timid to do their duty, or
who thought they ware executing their duty if they sat
on the bench and suffered their public time to he wasted ;
but those Judges who had done their duty ; who said—
There are other causes to be decided, and we will not suf-
fer the public time to be wantonly wasted—those Judges
who had decided quickly would be brought before
them for inquiry.—(Loud cheers.) The Hon. and
Learoed Gentleman had assigned such miserable rea-
sons for this inquiry, that he was convinced the House
would best perform its duty by upholding the dignity of
the Jtelicial Bench in Scotland, and refusing the ap-
pointment of a Committee.—(Cheers.)
Mr. -WALLACE could not butt xpress his extreme
surprise at the manner the Right Hon. Baronet, the
Member for Tarnworth had treated the quostion before
the House, and thought the levity with which he had
spoken on this subject was unworthy of one who at one
time held himself forth as a Law Reformer.—(Cheers.)
Enough had been said to show that inquiry was ne-
cessary, and he could tell the Right Honourable
Gentleman, that however lightly he might choose
to treat the subject. it was one of deep im-
portance to Scotland.—( Hear, hear.) The Right
Honourable Gentleman had expressed his surprise that
he (Mr: Wallace) should be content to allow the Go-
vernment to name the Committee, should one be
agreed to, alleging that with the Government would
rest the appointment of a Chairman and the control of
the business. It might be so, but he would persist in
his determination of inviting the Goveremeat to take
upon itself the important task, seeing it would be far
amore respectful to the Judges, whose duties
were to. be inquired into, as well as to the
legal profession, and the whole people of Scot-
and, that this course should be adopted, than leave it
in the haade of a private Member of Parliament, whose
mo tires might be impugned, or his übilites doubted for
such a task. Ott that score, however, he could not but
remark that no objection was taken by the Right Hon.
Baronet and his party to the Hen. Member-for Caith-
ness (Sir G. Sinclair) being Chairmen of the Commit.
tee appointed to inquire into the salaries of the Judges
in 1831-, and he had not a doubt that, had he (Mr.
Wallace) sat on that side of the House, and been one
of his thick and thin supporters, he Would have had the
Hon. Baronet's support instead of his opposition on the
present occasion. The Right Hon. Member for Tarn-
worth (Sir Robert Peel) had in a manner pro-
posed to him to abandon the Comnsheee if he
(Mr. Wallace) was not to be its Chairman,
but he begged to tell him, that sort of chaff would
not catch li;m—(Much laughter)—being thoroughly
satisfied that a proper inquiry into the duties of
the Judges of the Supreme Court would produce
incalculable advantage to the administration of jus-
fee in that country. When speaking of salaries,
the ;aright Honourable Baronet dechsrd that be
the salary what it. might of aey public man, it must be
understood as the recompense for the Whole of his time.
To this declaration he (Mr. Wallace) would fix the
Right Hon. Baronet, and 'upon it confidently claim
his vote that night, oc the ground that the Judges
of the Court of Session in return for a full year's salary
give to the country less than a half year's work. He
was quite satisfied to have the case decided on that view
of it, and demanded to know of the Right Hon. Gsn-
tlemari whether he would cut down the salaries to half
their present amount for six months' duty, or leave them
as they were, and have a.corresponding degree of useful
labour. Upon these terms he (Mr. Wallace)
was ready to drive a bargain with the Right
Honourable Baronet—decidedly, however, advocating
full pay, and the useful occupation of the whole time
of the Judges by means of long Sessions and short va-
cations,—(Cheers.) The Hon. Member for Stamford
(Sir George Clerk) had alleged that Government
conceded points to the Member for Sheffield and others
as the price of their support, and seemed to insinuate
that he (Mr. Wallace) must also have bad his on the
present occasion. No doubt the Hon. Member had
been thinking of the palmy days when he occupied
the Treasury benches, and when there was not a Scotch-
man without his price ; but he could tell them that
the three last parliaments had produced one Scotchman
at any rate who had been without price—(Much cheer. •
ing)—and he would defy any man on that side of the
House or the other to say he (Mr. 'W.) had ever asked
anything of the Government, or that anything had ever
been offred him.—(Hear, hear.) He would not detain
the House by recapitulating what already had been urged
in favour of a Committee, but conclude by once more