The Sun.
London, England, 1824-02-11 00:00:00

STATE OF IRELAND.

Lord ALTHORP, pursuant to notice, rose to move for cer-
rain Returns relative to the State of Ireland. Some apology
was perhaps due from hiM in undertaking a subject of this
description : but he considered that the prosperity of that coun-
try was as much matter of interest to an Englishman in that
House as to a 3lember for the sister country. As it was his
intention to make a motion upon the subject of Ireland later
in the Session, it would be well for him in the mean time to
prepare himself and the House, by moving for papers which
would throw light upon the matter. These were of that na-
ture which he apprehended would not call forth any opposi-
tion. They related, to the state of the Revenue of Ireland,
the Church, and the residence of the Clergy, and also the
mode in which the laws relating to Roman Catholics had
been executed. His motion fur a Return of the Revenue
would be for the gross and net produce of the Customs and
Excise for tho two years, ending sth of January, 1824, dis-
tinguishing the articles. Next he should move for the amount
of the Grand Jury Presentments. To this he thought there
would be no objection, as it was part of the charge to which
Ireland was subjected, and that necessarily entered into a dis-
cussion upon the state of the country. His next motion would
be to ascertain the residence of the Clergy. It was impossible
that any man could look at the state of Ireland, and not be
satisfied, that if a resident Clergy were good for England, which
was universally admitted, it must be doubly good for Ireland.
—(Hear, hear!)—lf an instance were wanted, he might mention
the case of a ReVerend person who had, with great credit to the
Irish Government, been lately appointed to the See of Lime-
rick ; and whose cure, during his residence in it, presented
none of those outrages which unhappily marked the other parts
of Ireland. He was not acquainted with Dr. Jebbs, but he
could not observe his late elevation, without expressing his sa-
tisfaction at it. He should next propose to move for a list of
the Parishes in Ireland, with the names of the Incurribents,
distinguishing those who were non-residents. Another return
he wanted was respecting the Church property. No mart
would auspett him of I:ishitig to overturn the Church Esta-
blishment, either in Ireland or. England ; but he thought it of
the greatest importance, considering the state of that country,
to knoiv what land Wait the property of the Church. He also
wished the House to know how many Roman Catholics had
been appointed to those offites, to which, by the removal of
disabilities, they hid latterly become eligible ; for by the Mea-
sures which 'Government had taken to etecute these laws, they
wouitite enablod to judge Whether the Roman Catholics had
•saase tube satisfied. To this end-he should.mOve -foe a list of

. .
Assistant Barristers, and the names of those who enjoyed pa,.'
tents of precedence. He should also move for a list of the Com-
missioners of Appeal, distinguishing the Roman Catholic
Clerks.. The Noble Lord concluded by moving for a. return of
the names of Incumbents, dist,tixu.ishing non-residents.
Mr. GOULBURN said he did not rise to oppose the motion,
for his, Uniform. opinion as expressed in that House was, that
the residence of the Clergy. was one source of attaining the per-
mbnent tranquillo of Ireland. He had pledged himself last
Session that every thing-.should he done' to enforce their resi-
dence, and in furtherance of that design, it would be his duty
in atew days to present a Bill to the House which, he trusted,
would be satisfactory On that head.
Mr. FIUME assured the Noble Lord that his object would
not be answered unless he made sonic al;:eration in his Motion,
for if az incumbent had resided for one month in his Cure he
would be put down as a resident. He suggested that he should
reqUire the list to distinguish the residents into those who were
three, six, nine, or twelve months resident.

• . .
I,orl ALTIAORP was willind to adopt any alteration to that
eff.oct.

Mr. CROKER. thought there was 4n objection to this word-
ing cf the motion. It would be necessary to get such a return►
to appeal to every individual to answer for himself. Tlir
Bishops could only know whether the incumbents had satisfied
the law or not.

Mr. HUME said, that ore postman could carry all the let-
ters to the individuais—they had only to ask the simple question.
The motion having been altered in the mode proposed—
Mr. V. FITZGERALD said he hoped the House would not
affix that stigma upon the respectable Prelates of Ireland,
which they must do if they adopted the reasoning of the Hon.
Member for Aberdeen, who considered they were capable of
making out inaccurate returns. He begged. to make his ac-
knowledgments to the Irish Government the the ettint they, L.d
made to promote and enforce
.the residence of the Clergy.
Mr. Secretary PEEL thought it would not be fair to call for
a return in the manner proposed. As it was only for one year`
a man might have been absent froth sickness or other causes,
which it was but fair to allow him to state. As, however, it
would be impossible to. comprise this in a motion. fora return,
he really thought the motion of the Noble Lord had better stand
as it originally was.
Mr. ROBERTSON said it was the duty of the English
Members to support the Noble Lord in his views. The ques-
tion would then come to be discussed without those party heats
and passions which had hitherto attended it.

N. HUME obtained leave to withdraw his amendment, and
the return was then ordered in the manner originally proposed.
Other Returns were also ordered, of which the Noble Lord
explained the nature in his speech.
On the motion fora return of the number cf acres of land
belonging to the Church, distinguishing the glebe-;ands,
Mr. GOULBURN observed that it would not be easy to is.,
certain the exact quantity of land in the hands of the Church ;
for that he understood to include the whole ecclesiastical esta-
blishment, and every individual belonging to it.. The difficulty
of doing this would appear greater, when he stated that such
was the state of returns to the Government of Ireland, that one
week a parish was reported to contain 10,000 acres, and another
week 24J,000.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT said it was not the number of acres
in the parish that was wanted, but to know what each Prelate
possessed ; and surely every man /night be reasonably expected
to know how much land he let, and for how much lie receivtd
rent.

Lord ALTHORP thought the return could not Properly be
altered.

Mr. MABERLEY said, that having been present the .other
night when the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. goulburn)
re-
fused to grant returns, he coald not help on the pres:ait occasion
observing, that if it was the intention of the House to support
shim'
im in such a course they might as well at once adjourn Ll-
the remainder of the Session.

Mr. GOULBURN appealed to his Parliamentary life to
chew whether he had been given to refuse returns. He thought
such a remark came with ill grace after he had only the day
before assented to a return of 30,000 accounts to the Right
Hon. Baronet opposite.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT was surprised at nothing more
than the confidence of the Right Hon. Gentleman in making
such a statement. It was no such thing as 30,000 accounts.
He had merely moved for what everyman had a right. to know,
viz. how he was taxed, and what the power of taxation over

The motion was then agreed to.
The next motion was fbr a list of the assistant Banisters ap-
pointed, distinguishing Roman Catholics.
Mr. GOULBUR.N could not give his entire approbation to
this motion. The difficulty was to ascertain who was a Catho-t
lic and who was not.

Mr. HOME denied that there was any difficulty in this
respect.
Lord ALTHORP said that the fact-of who was a Catholic
and who a Protestant was matter of notoriety.
Mr. AIABERLY explained.
Mr. CROKER noticed the anomalous state of the law re-
specting Catholics. In the first instance, none were allowed to
vote who did not swear they were Papists. A iterwards they
were allowed to vote, on taking the oath of loyalty, and 'Air,-
sequently no one was allowed to vote who was a papist,leayipg
the means of inquiry, as to Papist or no Papist, entirely unpro-
vided for. It was for this reason that he thought no return
could be made to the motion of the Noble Lord.

Mr. Secretary PEEL did not object to the motion on the
ground that the required information could not be given, but
because the House had no tight to call upon individuals to de-
clare what was their religion. He should not, however, press
his opposition.
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said that, in this case, there
could be no objection to the question alluded to by the Right
Hon. Secretary; for nothing could be more gratifying or con
ducive to intercstiri the individuals in question than to avow
their being of the Protestant religion.
Mr. Secretary PEEL explained.
The Motion was then agreed to ; as well as the other Mc-
dons alluded to by Lord ALTRoftr —after a few words from
G Lord AtTifoßP, Mr. OULBURX, and Mr. V.. F 1
rz-
dERAiD.