The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-16 00:00:00

and forced upon Ireland measures of permanent relief end pro-
vision for th • people—which would increase the evil--would
be aaverse to the opinion, and condemned by the judgment of
the educated and intellectual classes of Irelend, and on whom
the burden of taxation was about to tail. .Nothins,s could be
more fatal than the passing by a British Parliament of a mea-
sure of poor-law relief condemned by the principal representa-
tives of the country. He trusted, although the question was
not then before their Lordships, he might be permitted, in no
spirit of hostility, but rather with the view of making some
suggestion, as he thought there were suggestions to be made
on points which should be regarded with the gravest con-
sideration—he would suggest to their Lordships on three or
four provisions much which ought to be borne in mind, and
which it appeared to him was not borne in mind in providing
a permanent poor-law for Ireland. They were about to frame
a poor-law for that country. They were about for the first
time to confer an absolute right of relief unless some alteration
had been made in the first clause of the Bill as it was
now submitted to Parliament. By the Bill as it stood at pre-
sent, boards of guardians of the different unions of Ireland
were not only authorised and empowered, but authorised and
required to make some provision for all persons permanently
disabled, infirm, and so forth, either within or without the
workhouse, as it might seem to them fit. The present law gave
to the board of guardians permission to relieve but in the
workhouse only. The Bill they were about to introduce re-
quired the guardians to relieve either within or without the
workhouse. lie thought he was not wrong in what he said
with regard to the aged, to the permanently disabled, the
aged and infirm. They ought to confer the right of relief on
them, but they ought not at present to go fu Cher. Ile believed
on his part, that although many heavy burdens were borne by
the resources of Ireland, the provision seas not a judicious one.
They were, however, going further, for it appeared that a pro-
vision was to be made for the able•bodied, either within
or in certain cases without the doors of the workhouse.
They were authorising the Poor-law Commission-•rs
to require the board of guardians in certain cases
to provide fur the able-bodied out of the workhouse. The
provision might be a neces,ary one, but it was one from which
he completely dissented. It might be one for which there was
the greatest possible occasion, but it was a power which had a
tendency more than any other to extend and increase indefinitely
not only the pressure of the poor-rate itself, but also had a ten-
dency to create a desire in the minds of the Irish people to
desert their labour.—(Hear, hear. The point to which he
wished to call their Lordships' attention was this, they were
about to lay every burden upon the land of Ireland—they were
about to require the land of Ireland to support, the great body
of destitute persons. It was not unworthy of their Lordships'
consideration, and he trusted that it might not be lost sight of
by the Government, whether this provision under which a
limited amount of relief was now granted, and which might
have been found wise and effective enough with regard to the
present constitution of boards of guardians, might be found
equally wise and safe when they came to grant a more ex-
tended and a greater measure ; and he was sure that they
would find and impose on Ireland the full amount of burden
which England was called upon to bear, and they were bound
in fairness and candour •to see that the property affected by
the measure was justly applied, and to grant a protection to it
at least equal to the protection granted in England. There
were two other points. He was not about to discuss them
then, but he trusted that he was not improperly occupying
their Lordships' time by making some suggestions.—( Hear,
hear.) The condition of things, with regard to the poor.law
in England and Leland, was different, because society in Ire-
land was very much divided into very high and very low, and
that fact formed a most important consideration. With refer-
ence to the formation of boards of guardians, the boards of
guardians in England, the middling farmers were almost gene-
rally the persons called upon to officiate, but that was the very
class which was most deficient in Ireland, and from which it
would be impossible to form boards of guardians. The tenure
of the power devolved in Ireland in a great measure on very
much lower and poorer classes than it did in England—on
classes little above the labourers themselves. It might be
well for their Lordships to consider that, if this were the case,
there should be interposed between the guardians of that class
of persons and property some security that it should not be
wasted, and that there should not be less security in Ireland
between the guardians and property than could be obtained
in England from the present system, and yet the law as it now
stood limited the amount of ev officio guardians to the number
ordinarily allowed in England. Those upon whom the pres-
sure of the Irish pc-or-law would fall in the first instance would
be the landlord rather than the occupier. It might be said
that the landlord was the proper person to bear it, arid was the
person upon whom the pressure ought to be made to fall ; and
therefore it would be better, when they were about to make a
provision for out-door relief, to provide able-bodied persons
from the funds of the parish, that those persons on whose pro-
perty the taxation would fall should have a preponderating
voice in the framing of that taxation ; and if they should have
the board constituted of small farmers, paying one-third of the
amount of taxation, while two-thirds fell upon the landlords,
re was afraid that in many cases there would be a great temp-
tation to an improper extension of the rate, and the mis-
management would be greater as the amount of parochial rates
levied upon themselves became smaller. The great object they
had in view was to raise this class of farmers to be themselves
employers of labour. They ought to compel them to
employ labour ; for to tell him that the landlord
could supply labour to the extent required was
to tell him that his property would be confiscated, and therefore
employment should be provided by the farmer. If they
relieved the farmer from this obligation they would induce
them to throw their labourers out of work, and trust to the
chance of obtaining labour at a cheaper rate out of those sup-
ported by the poor-sates. No measure could be more indis-
pensable than this, for where the rates fell directly on the far-
mer himself, the pressure was the most wholesome and only
safe mode to prevent the improvident expenditure which a
different system of poor-laws would introduce into Ireland.
Whatever might be said against the Irish landlord, he (Lord
Stanley) was satisfied that there was more justice and more
good sense in England than to make a provision by which, he
believed, that the farmer could impose duties and burdens
which could not be borne by the landlords of England ; and
to say that they should have no voice in the assessing of rates ;
that they should have them assessed on those who were the
persons to pay by small farmers, who were altogether exempt
from payments—who had not the means of employ ing labour—
who had not the inducement to employ labour, but who voted
for the relief of persons from burdened estates, which would
be in a great measure confiscated by him. Ile ( Lord Stanley)
was satisfied that in England, where this class of farmers were
more respectable in point of property—he did not say of cha-
racter—that if they had the control, and only one-third of the
payment fell upon them, much dissatisfaction would he caused.
There were two other points, which, as he was on his legs, he
would venture to suggest to the consideration of her Majesty's
Government, and there was one which he considered as all
important, if they meant really to rut a check upon profligate
expenditure, and that was the question as to whether the rates
should be levied upon the townlands or the electoral districts.
He knew that proposals had been made to throw the burden of
taxation on the tovvnlands. He considered that impracticable,
because they were too small, some of them coming as low as
forty or fifty acres, and an assessment on so small a scale was
impossible. On the other hand, he was rather inclined to
think that the electoral division, as they were at nresent con-
stituted, did not err on the side of being too small; they were
too large to give scope, or sufficient scope, to individual
responsibility for the management of property—rather for the
prevention than the payment of rates. He was sure that if they
still further taxed the liability of proprietors, and from the
electoral divisions threw the burden of taxation upon the unions
of Ireland, instead of the electo• al divisions, from that moment
there was an end to all inducement to the landed proprietors to
take the smallest part or in'erest in the management of their
own property. He felt in some degree interested on this ques-
tion. Their Lordships must make all due allowance for that
matter in the weight they attached to his observations; but
when he said that he was an Irish proprietor, he said that it
was contingent upon the decision come to upon this matter
whether he should or should not continue so. He had one
more point to which, if they would forgive him, he would
urge upon the consideration of the House, and he thought it
was one of sufficient importance to be introduced at this early
period, although it would be discussed when they came to con-
sider the provisions of the more permanent measure. It was
this—a declaration—a legislative declaration—which in Eng-
land would appear to be uncalled for, because he believed that
the public sense of every board of guardians would have carried
it into effect. Under the provision made it was stated that
no man could be allowed to be destitute or entitled to relief
when, at the time, he was the occupier, or in possession of
land. He did not mean, when he said teed. sufficient for a
garden, about a quarter or half of an acre ; but when he made
the following observation, he should have the concurrence of
nine out of ten men acquainted with Ireland. It would be tin
ruin of the country if they at once sanctioned the union in one
person, the two characters of pauper and land occupier. There
were a great many small occupiers in Ireland, who were quite
in as much distress as other classes, and the board of guardians
would say that he should have relief, so that half of the year
he would be a land occupier and the other half a pauper, de-
teriorating in value the parish from wh.ch he derived his relief.
Unless all these considerations were taken into consideration,
no measure could be introduced at all calculated to reduce the
distress of the country, without leaving behind it evils worse
than those it was intended to cure.—( Hear, hear.)
The Earl of MOUNTCASHEL complained that the effect
of this measure would be to impose a burden on certain of the
classes in Ireland which they were altogether unable to bear.
The number of rate-payers who would be registered amounted
to 195,017, but out of this number not more than 50 or 51
would be able to pay. The Noble and Learned Lord (Lord
Brougham), whom he did not then see in his place (Lord
Brougham here returned to his seat)—Oh, the Noble Lord
was present—the Noble and Learned Lord, in his tirade
against the Irish people, said that labour on the roads had di-
minished the number of agricultural labourers. The fact was
that a portion of the Irish farmers had never been in the habit
of paying their labourers in money ; they paid
them with a patch of potato ground. They could now pay the
labourers with neither, and, therefore, they were compelled to
resort to the roads. The Noble and Learned Lord had re-
marked that the Irish poor were not ashamed to beg, and,
therefore, they cared not to be employed. He (Lord Mount-
eashel) would instance the case of the Irish labourer in Eng-
land and in London. When in this country they were employed
in English labour, and paid with English money, theywereHeas
anxious as the labourers of any country to be at work.
in Ireland —(Great
only wished that the Noble Lord resided_ h „
laughter, much increased by Lord Broug am s etsture of
feigned dismay)—he would then have been better able to de-
scribe the feelings and habits of the Irish people.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM said that it was not for the purpose
of adding anything to what had fallen from the Noble Lord op-
posite (Lord Stanley) that he rose at that time to address a
few observations to the House. He thought that every one
would agree with him that they ought to be grateful to the
Noble Lord, and it was principally for the purpose of recording
his acquiescence in the views advanced by the Noble Lord with
reference to a measure not yet before their Lordships, he
(Earl Fitewilliam) wished to say one word in exemplification
of what he had before stated with regard to the relief com-
mittees, and the power vested in the persons elected to form the
board of guardians. He was of opinion that there ought
to be provisions introduced in the measure, limiting these
powers. When he was in Ireland last, he attended the
sittings of the relief committee, and the first person who
came forward for relief was a man in possession of some 30 or
40 acres of land. He must do the committee the justice to
say, that they almost generally acquiesced in the propriety of
not admitting that person to relief; and that was after a touch-
ing appeal being made by the priest, who stated that the man
was in as great distress as any person who could apply to them.
He (Earl Fitz william) had no doubt of the truth of that state-
ment. Ile was grateful to the Noble Lord for the explanation
he had given; and his only object in rising was, that no doubt
might exist as to his opinion on this subject.
Lord MONTEAGLE wished, with his Noble Friend who
had last spoken, to return his thanks to the Noble Lord
opposite fir the course he had pursued. It was most im-
portant that they, as Irish proprietors, as well as Members of
the Imperial Parliament-, should be ready to make any per-
sonal sacrifices, and any pressure to which they might be sub-
jected, if such sacrifices or the endurance of such pressure could
be found beneficial to Ireland. But he powerfully wished to
draw his Noble Friend's attention to one or two points in the
present Bill. • The first of these did not so much arise out of

;he Bill itself, as out of the constitution of the board of com-

misaioners in whom these extraordinary powers were to be

vested. That board was constituted of five members, namely,
Sir John Burgoyne, Mr. Twisieton, the head of the board
of works, the head of the constabulary, and the
hear! -1 the eertnit'atie.t Nor, to :AT one 2.,,:quaintett
with Ireland, or who had passed a half-hour in
the office of ether of these official departments,
it Tao aomethipg amounting to a farce to think that these