The Sun.
London, England, 1841-04-27 00:00:00

of adopting a franchise to he tested by the rent after the
!deduction of all rates and charges. He had not yet fixed
upon the amount of rating. It was a proposition which
on every account demanded great consideration before the
House consented to its adoption. They had been cen-
sured by his Nobles Friend for introducing an entirely new
form and condition for the elective franchise in Ireland,
introducing a change which was inconsistent with the Re-
form Bill. He begged to remind him that in the Reform
Bills for England, Ireland, and Scotland, as originally in-
troduced, the authors of those Bills actually sought to
confer the elective franchise upon a voter paying a certain
amount of rent, whether there was or was not a profit.
This proposition, therefore, was not so utterly at variance
with the principles of the original Reform Bill as had been
stated by the Noble Lord. Neither was the proposition
inconsistent with that Bill as it actually stood, for it con-
ferred the franchise upon tenants wino paid a rent of 50/.
It was upon this ground that he (Lord Morpeth) rested
his proposition—that it would include as voters that class
of persons upon whom it was the intention of the Reform
Bill to bestow the franchise ; and he contended therefore
that they were acting in thorough conformity with the
spirit and the principles of that Bill. His Noble Friend
first assumed that his proposition of a 51. rating above the
rents and charges could be liable to no objection ; in the
nsxt sentence he proceeded to tell them that it would be
found to operate with great practical severity, and ex-
clude many who now enjoyed the franchise, and who under-
went a rigorous test. He thought his Noble Friend had
in this respect taken a leaf from the Noble Lord
opposite ; and that to this extent he could have
proved himself a useful pioneer.—( Hear, hear.) The
Noble Lord, the Member for North Lancashire,
proposed the solvent tenant test ; but his Noble Friend
(Lord Howick) would give them not only the solvent te-
nant test, but would add to it all the stringency which
would follow from an assessment under the real value of
property. They learned from the returns on the table, in
the plainest terms, that the valuators were of opinion that
the valuation was in most cases 10 per cent. below the
rent paid, as both landlord and tenant were desirous of
lowering the valuation. In Bandon the-e was a valuation
for municipal purposes, which was considerably above that
under the Poor-law rating. In Castledermott the valua-
tion was, in sixty instances, below the rent paid, and in
ten only above it. In Clonmel the estimate was lower
than the rent, with very few instances to the contrary.
In Cashel the valuator was of opinion that his valuation
was from 3 to 5 per cent. below the rent required, even
by the most indulgent landlords. In Cork it was from 4
to 5 per cent. under the rent. In Roscrea it was from
10 to 15 per cent. below the rent at which an
occupier would still have an interest in the
land ; and it was on the average of cases
15 per cwt, below the rents usually paid. In Sligo it
was about 15 per cent. beneath the rent, which a solvent
tenant, making a prudent arrangement would give, and 25
per cent. beneath the actual rents. In Tipperary the
valuation was 25 per cent, below the rent. In Fermoy
the number of 10/. electors on the registry, whose rent
was ascertained, was 174, and out of that number 118
would be disfranchised if they were required to have an
interest of a farthing above the rent ; by requiring an in-
terest of Si. 132 would be disfranchised ; by requiring
.5/. 140 would be disfranchised, and by requiring an ex-
cess of 10/. above the rent, the constituency would be re-
duced to fifteen persons only.—( Hear, hear.) Of these
parties, however, two paid upwards of 2001. rent, fourteen
paid between 100/. and 2001., thirty-seven paid between
50/. and 100/. and ten paid between 30/. and 50/. These
facts he thought would show that these parties were not
men possessing little or no means to qualify them for the
right of voting. In Cashel the number of 10/. electors
ascertained was 142; but of these 112 would be disfran-
chised by requiring of them an interest above the rent,
116 by requiring an interest of 2/. 120 by requ'ring an
interest of 3/. 121 by requiring an interest of 4/. 123 by
requiring an interest of Si. and 133 would be disfranchised
by requiring an interest of 10/. above the Poor-law valua-
tion. In Listowel, out of 265 electors 125 would be disfran-
chithed by requiring any interest above the rating ; 127
by requiring an interest of 1/., 172 by requiring an inte-
rest of 2/., 188 by requiring an interest of 3/.. 202 by re-
quiring an interest of 41., 220 by requiring an interest of
Si., and 250 by requiring an interest of 10/. In Tippe-
rary out of 100 101. occupiers 82 would be disfranchised
by requiring any excess above the rest, 66 by requiring 1/.,
88 by requiring 2/., 91 by requiring 3/., 92 by requiring
4/., and 97 by requiring 10/. In Armagh—Protestant
Armagh—out of 96 electors 22 would be disfranchised by
any interest above the rating, 27 by an interest of 11., 36 by
an interest of 2/., 45 by an interest of 3/., 53 by an inte-
rest of 4/., 66 by an interest of 51., and 81 by an interest
of 10/. In Catehill, out of 255 ascertained electors, 86
would be disfranchised by requiring of them any excess
above the rent, 151 by requiring 51., and .213 by requir-
ing 10/. He thought that those would show that the
amendment of his Noble Friend (Lord Howick) was un-
tenable and inapplicable; and that it would not carry out
the principle of popular representation in Ireland.—
(Hear, he ir.) Those were the grounds on which
he certainly felt himself bound, with whatever re-
luctance, to offer his strenuous opposition to the
first proposal which his Noble Friend had made. With
regard to the arguments which might be urged in favour
of establishing a franchise without a lease, and with re-
gard to the amount of value which should be required, he
would be prepared to state his opinions when the questions
came immediately under the consideration of the House.
All he wished for the present to show was that the first
proposition of his Noble Friend could not be carried if
they were determined on maintaining any constituency—
he did not merely say a sufficient constituency, but any
constituency whatever worthy of the name.—(Hear, hear.)
He would be prepared at the proper time to contend that
the proposition they (the Government) had brought for-
ward of ascertaining the franchise by the amount of rating,
was the safest, the simplest, and the plainest they
could devise, and, at least, until he had heard
I seine counter proposition brought forward, which he
could think more feasible and expedient than any which
had as yet been submitted to them—by that measure ho
should be content to abide.—(Cheers.)
Mr. C. WOOD said that the proposition of his No-
ble Friend bad not been brought forward as a substitute
for the Government measure, but as an amendment on it.
He did not mean to say that he approved of the franchise
which his Noble Friend the Secretary for Ireland bad pro-
posed, but whether the franchise were to be leasehold, as
proposed by the Noble Lord, or a franchise to be de.er-
mined by occupation, as suggested by his Noble Friend, the
amendment would clearly be so addition to the franchise,
whatever it might be. Th.'s, object of his Noble Friend was to
enlarge the franchise which might hereafter be establisbed.
The proposition of his Noble Friend viewed as an addition,
not as a substitute, would be a clear extension of the fran-
chise to one of the most independent classes in Ireland,
and as it was so be trusted after that explanation his Noble
Friend, the Secretary for Ireland, would withdraw that
opposition which be had threatened to the amendment of
his Noble Friend. The Bill introduced by his Noble
Friend (Lord Morpeth) proposed to rest the franchise in
Ireland upon occupation alone; in his opinion that would
be most objectionable, because it would destroy the oldest
and most independent qualification which had ever existed
in that or any other country—the qualification founded
upon property. It would be a great matter gained, if that
qualification were preserved. lf, as he sincerely trusted
it would, the present prosperity of Ireland continued, there
would be a vast accumulation of small proprietors who, by
the Bill of the Government, would be excluded from the
franchise, but th t class would be admitted if the amend-
ment of his Noble Friend were successful ; as the object
of both was to preserve the constituencies of Ireland, he
sincerely hoped that the threatened opposition would be
withdrawn. It was necessary to hive different franchises
for the state of property, and holdings were entirely differ-
ent in the South to what they were in the North. The
leasehold franchise alone could never maintain the present
numbers of the Irish constituencies, and that was one very
groat objection to the measure. He was most anxious to
maintain the slumbers of the independent electors in Ire-
land, and he was well assured that that was also the aim
and anxious desire of the Government ; then he fully
trusted that they would withdraw all opposition to the
amendment of his Noble Friend, which would have the
effect they desired. He would take the state of the con-
stituencies in Ireland in 1835, and that he considered as a
year in which every thing was fair, it was before the sys-
tem of double entries was resorted to ; as for the imputed
perjury and fraud, he cared nothing—( Hear, hear)—he
considered it was very much exaggerated. Was it to be
wondered at, that when the Judges themselves could not
agree upon the question of value, two peasants should upon
the same question swear entirely contrary to each other,
and yet both swear perfectly according to their consciences
and without the least tinge of fraud ? Suppose that Judges
Perrin and Crampton were to be brought into the Registra-
tion Courts, they upon the question of value would swear
directly against each other, yet who for one moment could
impettes,e.jury or I raud to either of the Learned Judges
whyeften, not extend their charity to the people also ?
rh,ehenaerio)rmWAelclt, then,amo o
amounted
8t305
(cieHreatt constituencyw a nows u n-
-38,000 in round numbers—.the dec4rtseh'aeosoe—ami. amounting to
that period. Now on looking at the evi-
rdinbgefore the House, it was evident that much of
die,soocoo
to the non-renewal of leases by
eoards inlrnelsntl—
that evidence proved that even
There a
esrldcendpeerlse was wing
political considerations did
not
ot enter into the ques-
tion, there was a great reluctance to reneiwoulendasaetsion w Those
reports showed that the renewal of leases was
going
out in
Ireland, and it followed that if the franchise
were based
which
on the leasehold, it was based on a
exist—they
and whatever numbers
were builst,e4 upon sand,
swhhoircthl y
wasw•ougl would a
dnoootl
gradually
y
falling t
to
of voters
a ol. rn
mightg , therebeo waswobtained,
nothing
even
o r cer
tai
n than th at
in five yea-s hence they would not have that
number or anything like it. Disfranchisement was going
on at a rate of 1,000 a year. In a few years a necessity
would arise to revive the whole question. He p i-t,ci-
pated in the strongest degree in the objections which his
Noble Friend stated against 5/. rating. He (Mr. C.
Wood) did not believe that the object which his Noble
Friend (Lord Morpith) had in view—namely, of securing
the independence of the voter—would be obtained by a
lease when the amount was so low as Si. or even 81.
With respect to what was asserted relative to laedlerd
and tenant in this country he believed that great injure-
preseet itions were made. He did not believe that it ex-
isted as a general rule that the tenant was driven against
his will to vote contrary to his opinion. He did not be-
lieve that coercion was exercised generally by the land-
lord. If such a general rule existed he did not think the
tenantry, as a class, would be coerced by it.—( Opposition
cheers.) lie must say that one of his chief reasons for
being of that opinion was, that, taking the occupying tenantry
generally, their opinions did not materially differ from
those of the landlords. That was apparent, if they con-
sidered those questions which generally occurred at a
county election—such as the Corn-laws. The question
to be decided now was not whether leaseholders were a
class of independent voters, but whether leases would
make them so. His position was that a lease was not ne-
cessary to make the occupying tenant independent, espe-
eielly at a low rating, because, so far as occupation at a
test of property, and property was a
high amount was a
test of intelligence and education, the occupying tenant
had a bettor test as a qualification for a voter than the
leaseholder at a mall amount, There could be no doubt

that the power of creating fictitious votes, as stated in the
extracts which be read from the Report, and as men-
tioned in the case of the Castlereagh Union, would be
extended to a very great extent in the case of
leaseholders at a small amount of rating. Indeed
at such an amount of rating as 51., it was of no consequence
to the landlord whether the tenant had a lease or not.
The question, he thought, was not so much whether they
should have an independent constituency, but whether
they should have a constituency at all. What he had
hitherto urged referred to the state of things likely to re-
sult from the rating of 51., which was first proposed, being
established.' It seemed now, however, that the Government
had raised the rating from 51. to 8/. Now, even by that
rating of Si. he found on referring to the fourteen Unions
mentioned in the report from which he had just read ex-
tracts, tLat out of the existing number of 201. voters
one-sixth would be disfranchised. That seemed to him
a most extraordinary mode of keeping up the constitu-
ency of Ireland—to commence by lessening it. Those
Unions were taken indiscriminately, and might be taken
as pretty fairly representing all the Unions in the coun-
try, and if so, if the object of the Noble Lord's Bill was to
keep up the constituency, it was certainly extraordinary
that the first thing which it effected was to disfranchise
6,000 of the existing voters. In the last six years the
number of voters diminished to the amount of 6,000, and
if upwards of 6,000 more would be disfranchised, those who
would re:nain would be left to the operation of the same
cause as that which had already eff acted so great a dimi-
nution in their numbers ; and where then the constituency
would ultimately come from, he confessed he did not
know. The cause of the diminution, namely, the non-
renewal of leases, would remain in forcible operation, and
would effect a contiuued reduction.--( Hear, hear, from
the Opposition benches.) That there might be no ques-
tion about what he stated he would read the names of
the Unions. The Hon. Gentleman here proceeded to
read the names of the fourteen Unions referred to, and
then proceeded to say that the Noble Lord's ( Lord
Morpeth's) Bill would undoubtedly have the effect of dis-
fratichisihg one-sixth of the ten-pound voters of Ireland.
The object of his Noble Friend's clause was to preserve
undiminished that portion of the Irish constituency which
might be said to represent the Irish people. He ( Mr. C.
Wood) begged his Noble Friend (Lord Nlorpeth), and
the Attorney- General for Ireland, to remember that he
protested against their considering the proposal of his
Noble Friend near him as one which was to be taken as
the whole of the proposal which he made. Ile proposed
to retain the property qualification in Ireland, as the best
that could exist; he meant as nearly as they could retain
it, by relaxing the intention of the Legislature, some
years ago, and by preventing that state of things
which the Noble Lord, the Member for North Lanca-
shire, said ho would deal with when it should happen--
namely, the diminution of the constituency of Ireland—if
that diminution should be such as to throw power ag,in
into the hands of those from whom the Reform Bill re-

leased it. lie ( Mr. C. Wood) quite agre:.(l that the effect
of any surplus interest above the rent would be to produce
that state of things, and he called upon all who thought
that at least the farm of representation in Ireland ought to
be preserved, to assist them in preierving it, either by the
way his Noble Friend proposed, or by an occupation fran-
chise of higher amount. He called upon them to make
up the number that might be required in a Idition to those
who might remain, in such a manner as might be con.
sidered to form a fair constituency for Ireland. His
Noble Friend's proposal had this object, but it did not
fully put before the House what his Noble Friend intended
to do. It might be considered an omission that his Noble
Friend had not given notice of the amount at which he pro-
posed the tenant to be rated. It was impossible to do that be-
fore they had the returns in the it hands, and those were only
delivered this morning. But the occupation franchise
his Noble Friend might consider as a substitute fur the
one which he proposed, and the question for the House
to consider was whether they would add:the franchise, re-
taining as mach as they could of the present freeholds in
Ireland, and making up the rest in some way or other
thereafter to be determined. He hoped his Noble Friend's
proposal would be considered only in conjunction with
some other to be thereafter delivered to the House. He
was sure his Noble Friend the Secretary for Ireland
would acquit his Noble Friend ( Lord How ick) of coning
before him with this proposition. They had thought the
present interest with the test of rating ought to be pre-
served, and the deficiency made up by additional fran-
chises, and for that reason only these words came before
the amendment of his Noble Friend.--( Hear, hear.)
Their object was the extension of the franchise,
to the people of Ireland, which he hoped would be con-
sidered as one that entitled them to the support of that
side of the House.

Sir C. GREY wished to say a fovr words on this
amendment. He hoped it would nct be considered any
impertinent intrusion if he rose for the very natural pur-
pose, before the question was put, of understanding what
the amendment was, and what were the wards it proposed
to amend.--( Hear, hear.) Before the speech of his
Noble Friend he was almost disposed to vote with him_
( Laughter)--but as the amendment wasexplained he could
not du so. He begged the Noble Lord (Lord Morpeth )
not to consider this as a verbal amendment. —(llunr.)
Could his Hon. Friend have overlooked the importance
of the words "ie his actual occupation ?" On what
ground, then, did he say that the 101. franchise was taken
away by the first clause of this Bill / The Hon. Member was
in total error in supposing that this clause operated as a dis-
franchisement of the property qualification. The clause
did not affect those who were in actual occupation. Hav-
ing said thus much, he would state as shortly as he could
his reasons for voting against the amendment, notwith-
standing the words " beneficial interest." He held the
omission of there words as one of the main merits of the

Noble Lord's Bill. The mode in which the Hon. Mem-
ber proposed to deal with the beneficial interest would of
itself prevent him (Sir C. Grey) from voting with him ;
but the insuperable objection he had to it was this, that it
would operate to disfranchise a class of voters to whom it
was intended to give the franchise in 1832. The Hon.
Member had omitted to mention those qualifications in
which property and beneficial occupation are required to
exist. The amendment of the Noble Lord the Member

for Northumberland would operate most injuriously with
respect to those. Although such an opinion had been f(e-
quently repudiated, his (sir C. Grey's) opinion was, that
by law a farmer occupying a farm for a term originally
created, having an interest of 101. a year above all rents
and charges was entitled to vote.

Lord STANLEY said that differing as he did alto-
gether from the principles c,f the measure introduced by
the Government, it was of very little impor►ance to him
whether the original clause was carried, or an amendment,
which was considered merely of a verbal nature. But it
was because he did not consider it merely of a verbal na-

tura—it was because he considered it identified with the
great principle to which he was attached, that when he
was called upon to decide whether the amendment of his
Noble Friend, or the clause cf the Noble Lord, the Secre-
tary of Ireland should stand, that he resolved to give his
vote in favour of the amendment of his Noble Friend,
which appeared to him to affirm and uphold the prin-
ciples which he maintained, and which the measure f
the Government sought to destroy.—( Cheers.) The
proposition which had been mace at the very latrat mo-
ment, two months after the introduction of the Bill, and
upon information which was not obtained for the purpose
of framing the Bill, but which was obtained fur the pur-
pose of bolstering it up—( Loud cheers)—the last
proposition of the Noble Lord and the Government,
was the insertion of a franchise, one simple, sole franchise
for Ireland, that franchise being the being rated to the re-
lief of the poor to the amount of 8/., without reference to
the amount of beneficial interest—without reference to the
fact of whether the person claiming had any beneficial in-
terest as a solvent tenant, or possessed of any property
whatever.—(Cheers.) That was the principle the Go•
vernment contended for in opposition to that of his Noble
Friend the Member for Northumberland, who asked them
to define the existing franchise, undoubtedly with some
modifications, with some limitations, and some alterations ;
but he proposed to take the rating as the test, and in addi-
tion to a certain amount of rating, not simply per se, but
over and above the rent, and that that should be deemed
and taken to be not a new qualification, but the legal and
correct interpretation of that for which he was contending
in common with the gentlemen on his (Lord Stanley's)
side of the House, namely the beneficial interest being an
excess of value over the burdens affecting the land, as was
required by the Reform Act, but which the Government
now sought to abolish.—( Hear, hear.) Therefore, how-
ever it might suit the views of Hon. Gentlemen opposite
to represent that as a verbal amendment—and it was upon
those grounds that be should vote in favour of the amend-
ment proposed by his Noble Friend to the first
clause—he did not conceive that that would be the pro-
per time for entering into the discussion of the detail-,
either of his Noble Friend's amendment, or the proposition
of the Government. for that would naturally and neces-
sarily arise in discussing the second clause ; but they were
now called upon to choose, if compelled to adopt any
change—if they were to make any alteration—if they were
to legislate at all, they were called upon to say, would
they legislate upon the principle of a beneficial interest, or
of no interest at all ?—( Hear, hear.) Ho must say that it
would require some ingenuity to persuade him, and it
would require some ingenuity to persuade the country,
that the division on the present question was
a division on a merely verbal arnmendment. He was
bound to say, without discussing the details of his Noble
Friend's proposition, that he was disposed entirely and
cordially to concur in it. He should regret to ace the fran-
chise of Ireland, and he was sure he spoke the sentiments
of that side of the House, unnaturally and unduly diminished.
—( Hear, hear ; Cri,'s of "Oh 1' and Laughter.) He
should regret to see persons possessed of a proper qualifi-
escattaiisouenlsd,,aarnneddgrotetett Irelandohsese
of Ireland dwindled
property and the same beneficial
interest either by the state of the law, or from any inade-
qlaueadelyordis of
nthelaw,
n
r from
refusing thet o
grantconductleases—he
of h e
those
ed to
of
chises, ae nr y
small amount ; and
-
constituencywhen
again, that
he ;Nould be prepared to consider, and
that might emanate
eor
oistiriauhile issue. attention,
u e
with the most
m the Executive, with whom ques-
tions of that momentouswouldan epornosi
ts, proposition
that
nature must emanate in order to
be brought to a successful
vourably any proposition to meet those
had been proved to exist.— h evils those
(Hear,
asked whether it was the intention' of ar ) lt ha 1 been
Reform Act to restrict the county theConstit framers of the
and it had been urged that in point of ufaccutey hine IRrelfand,
Ac', so far as the count.es were concerned, was a delusionorm
upon Parliament and the public,fand
it. was assumed tha • t
the county constituencies.o Ireland were at the present
moment in a state of rapid dece and of progressive di-
When he had
the noh proof
whatever for the opinion.
of introducing the Irish Reform Act, he unour
asked at what be calculated the then was
constituency of the country, and he replied 52.000—thii
was to say, he took the exiting regis try, and he found on
it 52 000. Ho had been very prop crly met by the Hon.
and Learned Nlamber for Dublin, w ho told him, "True
there are 52,000 on the registry—i am on it, and my sons
are on it ; but my father is also cm it, and my uncles and
my grandfather are on it ; and f•som my knowledge of the
country," said the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, " vo far
from 52,000 being on the registry, I will take upon ray.