The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-27 00:00:00

ber of the present Government, and he had not the slightest without any reference expressed out of doors, without any re-
doubt that the minute of council which had been promised ference to the opinion expressed by the Dissenters who were
would be laid upon the table, and he should be doing an injus- connected with lilt. would say that the best ro-
tice to those gentlemen, and an injury to the body with which vision that could be.madelisa'd been made for the provision for
he was connected, if, in the event of a division, he refrained the poor. He might have the misfortunemaeto differ From some of
from expressing by his vote his confidence in a ministry who those who had taken part in thedebate, but there appeared to
had exhibited such an enligetened regard for the welfare of the be in the observations of the opponents a singular forgetfulness
people, and who had the means, as well as the will, to confer of' the ties which bound the several portions of 'society toge-
such an inestimable boon as that of education on the Catholic ' ther. He had the highest feeling for those who opposed
community. i the plan of the Government, but he believed that out of
Sir R. INGLIS had never before hail the advantage of , doors the highest respect would be felt for an assembly
meeting the Hon. Gentleman behind him (Mr. Vlorei O'Fer- which had treated this mpuosrttant queseion in the way in which
rail) on common ground before, and he could not refrain from it had been met, but he must
bpellainevheadd, been deevveirsye for the education of the people,
expressing the great satisfaction which he felt in so cordially
dmsaeym,
binerhoisf ownth opinion, the best
concurring with him as he did on the present occasion. i panoads,ibblee
community would
Mr. M. MILNES said that when it was recollected that the I be satisfied with a measure in eelfch thdeegratest relief was
. Mr. T. DUNCONIBE was not at all . surprised that the
Government gave funds for Mahommedan education in India, 1 provided where there was the greate'st
it was at least surprising that there had been any objection to I
include the Roman Catholics in the Government scheme, and , Noble Lord had withdrawn the attentionamod.
ha
House from
i pased at the question of the lion. illember forw;il
he deeply regretted that the Noble Lord had placed himself, i the question immediately bargee them • not sur-
unnecessarily as he conceived, in a false position, by placing the
religious portion of the question, as he did do, prominently 1 only object of the Hon. Baronet the Member for S u.li k
forward, by making the grant to that body a separate measure. was to obtain a rescinding of the minutes of Council°t waric -
When the Member for the University of Oxford had given his granted this relief, and if he went out alone, unless pwh'fih
unequivocal support to the principle of education, he felt that , answer was given as to when a provision was to abes-emdee
Wesleyans, and
there need have been no hesitation on the part for the Roman Catholics, he would go nu: alone and vote form made
of the Government. Nevertheless, he did consider that it motion. The whole of the diffii ulty had arisen from the secret
was a defect in the measure, that the whole of the grant negotiations which had taken place with the Wesley
had not been given solely to secular education, lit was certainly owing to these understood proceedings that
He thought that it was quite an error to suppose that the : the Government stood in the unfortunate relation in which
Roman Catholic church was opposed to the Scriptures being ' they stood on this matter. The Right Hon. Member for
read by the people. If the version authorised by that church Edinburgh (Mr. Macaulay) had stated that all the clear state-
was read in the schools daily, their authorities, he was sure, went which he had made the other night was neither more nor
would find no fault with it. But looking at the many diffi. less than a romance. But what was the real facts of the case ?
culties which surrounded the question debarred him from any Why, that the negotiation with the Wesleyan Methodists had
wish to interfere with the religious education of the people. not taken place at Lansdowne Honse, but at the Treasury, and
A secular education was still somewhat unpopular. He ex- notwithstanding the assertion of Lord Ashley, who had so
pected the nation would advance, and he thought the only sys- kindlrcome forward to speak on the matte' that such was not
tem which would certainly prosper, unimpeded by the diffi- the case, it was clearly evident that our Roman Catholic
culties which he had alluded to, was one by which Government fellow-subjects were to he sacrificed to the interests of the
provided for the secular part of the education, leaving the rest to Wesleyan Methodists. It was clearly stated in the circular of
private effort, the Government only taking care that the schools Mr. Hughes, alto appeared to have teen the go-between
were conducted on high principles of morality. He, under between the Ministry both with the Wesleyans and the
that conviction would give the Government his support, feel- Church, and it was evident from that note that there was a
mg assured that they had to struggle with many difficulties deeper intrigue—an intrigue with the Chu:eh by which the inte•
which they had endeavoured to overcome, ' rests were equally to be sacrificed. By that note it was ex-
Mr. FORBES felt it necessary to state to the House his rea- Pressl9 stated that as an inducement to get up petitions Lord
son for supporting the Government measure. It was that he John Russell had kindly consented to take charge of them.
thought a necessary part o f the national system was that the What then became of the allegations of the Hon. Member for
authorised version of the Scriptures should always form part of Edinburgh ? Why, what he had assented was substantially
the education of the young of the country. He would always correct. The truth was that the Church would get the whole
give his countenance to instruction in the Holy Scriptures, and of the grant, for the Dissenters and the Catholics bad both re-
therefore he would oupose the motion, fused it. Some prorni:.e had been held out that there would
Mr. AGLIONBY hoped the Honourable Baronet would be a provision fed' the Roman Catholics, bat it was plainly as-
take the advice tendered him from many on both serted by the Hun. Baronet who was the Member for the Uni-
sides t f the House, and withdraw his motion. He versity of Cambridge (Sir R. Inglis) that if there was to be
(Mr. Aglionby) was opposed to the motion, not because it any provision for the Roman Catholics that h e would most de.
went ton far, but because it did not go far enough. He ad- cidedly oppose it. The Hon. Member for Edinburgh had
milted Roman Catholics to participation in the benefits of the entered into a lengthy tirade on the general advantages of
education, and had blamed him for apparently doubting them.
Government, bat then there were some other sects excluded
and left unaffected by the motion of the Hon. Baronet. Why Why who did doubt them in the present day. Certainly not
h
was that? Many Dissenters were excluded by implication. he; but unless there was some provision made for the Roman
But he referred more particularly to the Jews, who were de-
Catholics, most decidedly would he oppose the plan • but if the
prived entirely of the advantages to be derived by other of
Governmintroduceentiwould come forward and say expressly that they
their fellow-subjects. He was sorry, indeed, that the Govern-
would
' went had not carried their measure much farther, and made it Catholic fellow-subjects, he fully believed that it would be
much bolder at once. He was sere the would have met with totally inoperative ; and in a few years the House would be as
greater support than had been given them, great as that had y
heartily sick of it as they were at the present moment of the
been. He begged again that the Hon. Baronet would with-
new poor-law. When that law was introduced, he had told
draw his motion. them that such a consequence would arise, but he was then
Mr. NEWDEGATE said the qustion was too important discredited, and yet how universal was the disgust that was now
felt. Yet if the Government would give the assurance to
that he should maintain silence, and give his vote without ex-
which he alluded, he would unhesitatingly advise the Hon.
planation. He agreed with the Hon. Member on his left
(Mr. Forbes). He honoured the Noble
Lordat. thehead Di-tuber the Member for Southwark to withdraw his motion.
of
the Government, for the manly way in which he had They would soon have enough of the scheme when they had
brought forward his measure, disdaining to take his en all the schoolmasters appointed and those inspector gentlemen
try by surprise. He repudiated the charge of bigotry which —when they had those State spies intermeddling with the vii-
had been thrown out from the other side of the House upon loge affairs. They would say, "Oh ! it is a pity that we ever
those who rejected the spirit of this motion. He stood gave way to the scheme." But gentlemen, in the meantime,
by those sentiments and principles which had done were congratulating the Ministers on the majority which they
honour to this country, and entered intimately into had gotten the other night on his (Mr. Dancombe's) amend-
its constitution. Bigotry ! Why some of the Members
of that men t.He admitted it ; it was a great and triumphant t
ma-
House seem to have been carried away with a fury for educa- jority—but a majority obtained in the most ignoble manner—
thin, till in the liberality of their sentiments, as they called a majority obtained by truckling to bigot: y and making conces-
them, they opened the national privileges to Jews, Turks, and sions to one and to another, which deserved to be shown' up
infidels. He could not allow a charge of bigotry to be made and exposed. If the Roman Catholics obtained a benefit in
against him, for supporting principles which he defended these Government grants, they would obtain it on account of
against a church which was encroaching, and which claimed what had been said by the two Right Hon. Baronets opposite,
too much. not because of any spirit of concession on the part of the Go-
Mr. BELLEW, as a Roman Catholic Member of the vernment. It would have been well if the Noble Lord had
House, rose to explain his reason for voting in sup- consulted those two same Baronets before coming to the House
port of the Government measure, which was intended with his measure, instead of going to the paltry pettifogging
to advance the civil and religious liberties of the sect, in conference at Centenary Hall. The House has been
country. It was a matter of congratulation to the country struggling for many rears to emancipate the Catholics, when
that it had a Ministry, whose life from the first had been given should they succeed ? The Noble Lsrd said in his speech they
in public to the advancement of these principles. The advan- might not succeed for some time—nay, he said, not for some
tages that would be gained from the measure were great, and years. Some years! He (Mr. Dunccmbe) told him that
the amount of it nowhere so great as in this country.
He if she might have succeeded at once, be might have sue-
thought the measure was called for from the great amount of seeded now, if he had come down to the House
ignorance which prevailed in this country,
and laid upon the table, whatever opinion Dissenters might
members of his own religion were excluded the
though thee
benefits of the
have formed, or even have expressed, a bolder scheme, one that
grant of Friday night last, still he could not bring-himself, on went further. If the Noble Lord had said to the House,
Whatever faults it has, it off rs equal benefits to all equally;"
that ground, to oppose the extension of education to others.
then the Noble Lord might have had to struggle with opposition
He thanked the Hon. Baronet, however, for bringing forward
would
the motion, but, after the pledges of her Majesty's Govern-
from the other side, but he
othe have succeeded, if not better,
meet on the subject, he could not reconcile it with his sense of at least as well as he did ther night against his (Mr. Dun-
duty to support the motion.
comhe's) amendment. But no, the Government had truckled
Sir WALTER JAMES agreed with the Hon. Member for to their political opponents ; to the other side of the House ;
Cockermouth that the Government ought to have taken a and their own friends, who had supported them when in oppo-
bolder course. lie would be very glad to see his own opinions sition, had been sacrificed.
of what he considered right carried out, but as from the divisions Mr. I3ROTHERTON felt that he would best consult the
existing among the people, this was impracticable, he would interests of the Roman Catholics by leaving their case in the
extend the principle of equality towards all. As he had some hands of the Government. lie felt confident that right would
be done them ; and although in favour of the principle of the
confidence in the Government, he could not suppm t the motion
motion, considering the difficulties which surrounded the
of the Hon. Baronet.
question, and which the House, perhaps,
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT was distinctly of opinion thatwere notincireum-
if the system of bestowing the grants of late years was to be stances t o value, he would vote against the motion.
disputed, he thought the Noble Lord had acted rightly in Sir W. MOCESWORTH then repliedlle said be had
been requested to withdraw his motion, and among the rest by
extending, education towards all, and he thought the difficulties
of the Noble Lord would be aggravated by delay.—(Hear, the Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, whose judgment
he always respected. Ile ( Sir W. Molesworth) had often been
hear.) He disapproved of the principle of secular education
apart from religion as advocated by Dr. Hook, for he consi- assisted by the Hon. Member for Bath, but be could not agree
dercd that religion should not be separated from education, with him that night in his estimate of human nature in that
He thought the Noble Lord should feel satisfied with the assembly. He (Mr. W. Molessvorth) would respect the
general approval with which his plan had been received, and he Members on the Ministerial bench as gentlemen who, having
sincerely hoped that, without making any distinction of sects, made a promise to bring forward a motion soen for a minute to
they would extend to all the advantages of education. include the Roman Catholics, would make it good. He would
Mr. ROEBUCK said if the interpretation of the lion. Gene on that understanding, with the permission of the House ,es. who had just sat down, was correct as to the imme- draw the motion.—( Loud cries of "Na," from loth sides. )
diate intentions of her Majesty's Government to bring in a mi-
nute to extend the advantages of education to the Catholics, head of the Government had spoken as though he had last
then the House would be saved a great deal of unnecessary year voted against the Marnooth grant, because it went to the
discussion. He feared, however, that this was not an exact' in- Roman Catholics. Now he begged distinctly to state that such
terpretation. The Hon. Member for Southwark was met with was not his motive, and he then plainly intimated as much.—
all sorts of professions on both aides of the House. Would the (Divide. divide.)
Noble Lord get up and tell them, either that the Catholics Mr. J. COLLETT hoped that the Hon. Baronet would
were to get share of this 100,0001, or that he would bring in not withdraw his motion.— (Cries of " Divide.")
a distinct minute for them this session? If the Noble Lord Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD wished to know how the
gave such a promise, be (Mr. Roebuck) promised he would not matter stood ? Were the Roman Catholics to be admitted to
trouble him again on this question. He was surprised that the benefits of the vote, or were they not? Had a pledge been
the two Roman Catholic gentlemen who were connected with given that they would ? If not. he hoped the Hon. Member
the Government, had not opened their mouths on this question. would not withdraw his motion. (Loud cries of " Divide,
If it was my faith that was thus treated, I would not suffer the divide,") amid which,
contumely. Some Hon. Member, like the Hon. Member for Dlr. Il U3IE rose, and said lie was gratified with what, had
Warwick, would endeavour to raise ano popery cry, and that fallen from the Government, who had given their pledge for
convinced him of the evils of a mere sectarian education. It the admission of the Catholics to a participation in the vote
was a proof that education should be directed to make men) ultimately, and with that he thought they ought to be satisfied,
virtuous and intelligent, and not to quarrel about religious without pressing
the present motion to a division,—(Loud
differences of points of faith. As far as he could judge from cries of "Divide.")
The gallery was then cleared for a division, when there ail-
ment, his fears were not that the House of Commons would pcared—
go against him, but that the country would ; and he knowing For the Amendment
e
this, that the House would soon lead the country, was desirous Against it 203
of waiting till that time arrived.—(Hear, hear.) This Majority against the Amendment
seemed to be the actuating motive of the Government. Mr. EW ART then brought forward the amendment of
In talking so much about the faith of the Roman which he had given notice, "that in districts where there is only
Catholics, they seemed to forget the intolerance and illiberality one school receiving State support, children whose parents ob-
of many of the other sects that received aid from the Govern- ject to the kind of religious instruction administered there, may
relent grant. The British and Foreign School Society was
be admitted to the school without being subject to such reli-
one in point—for at their training school at Battersea they em- gious instruction. That appointments under Government
ployed class-books attacking the tenets of the Roman Catho-
be not reserved (as proposed in the minutes) for unsuccessful
lies, and laying down rigid rules of religious conformity. candidates for exhibitions in the normal schools alone, but be
Neither Roman Catholics nor Dissenters could be admitted on thrown o?en to general free competition, on the principle of
account of the regulations. If they passed this vote of impartial examination." He thought that the proposition was
100,0001. the Roman Catholics would not be heard of more • so equitable that no one could object to it. He would, therefore,
and if the next Parliament was a liberal House Of rest his case on its own merits, and would not take up the time
Commons, then, perhaps, the claims of that party of the House with any observations.
would be revived, but not otherwise. What is Mr. AGLIONBY seconded the motion, and thought it so
the vote of the 100,0001. but to remove ignorance equitable, that he 'would not picture to himself any objection to
and prejudice, and where in the country was it more required the proposal. The proposition was as applicable to one class of
than in those commercial and manufacturing districts where religionists as to another. To members of the Church of Zags,
there were large bodies of Irish Roman Catholics.—(Hear, land, Dissenters, and Roman Catholics. There could be no-
hear.) This was where education was most required, and he thing unjust in such a proposal, and he thought it the duty of
therefore objected in Into to the educational scheme; because the Government to accede to it, as it did not give offence to
it offered money to those who already had it, and refused it to the religious feelings of any religious denomination.
those who had none,—(Hear, hear.) He wanted some definite Sir G. GREY thought that theresolution was the same in
pledge from the Noble Lord when he intended to bring for- principle as that which had been decided upon a few evenings
ago, and therefore he could not give it his support. The
ward a motion to include the Roman Catholics. He (Ur.
schools to which the Government aid was to be extendedufwtehries
Roebuck) would not be contented with a general promise,
voluntary schools, and he thought that if principlethvicuidb
he must have a specific time given. If the Noble Lord hadentirely
the courage to avow himself, and at once bring forward such amendment were adopted, their
tclarcaonditionn
were imposed„
changed, and many. of them, if I
a measure, he did not believe that ultimately he would
lose a single supporter.—( Hear, hear.) proposal.
not. therefore, assent to the .
would in all probability reject the grant altogether. He could
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman the Member for Bath had stated that he had not given
two mitions. He thought this was a great practi.
Mr. V. SMITH thought there wss a practical difference.
sulicient explanation, and had calledon him further to state his between. the
views. The Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark hadcal He hoped the Government would accede to ilk.
grievance, ant Mr. Kay Shuttleworth agreed with him is
that opinion.
brought forward his motion in a fair and temperate speech, and
as there was no class of religionists who coullt
had asked him for some additional reasons why he refused to especiallynikreeofince it.
.ta
accede to the request he had made. He ( Lord John Russell)
3lr. FINCH opposed the motion, and he believed, if he.
begged leave to say_ that his Right Hon. Friend near him, the
Ministryd to 't '
Majesty's assented I., it would be found to be ute
Secretary for the Home Department, had stated over again to-
night what had been stated on previous occasions, and the terly impracticable.
grounds why the Government objected to the motion of the Mr. ADDERLEY thought that some great effort was re-
Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark. That satisfied many quired to meet the want of education in the country. He had
Hon. Members in the House, and they had expressed 'them- himself received a petition for presentation against the Govern-
selves willing to leave the question in the hands of Govern- wont grant, in which a great number of the petitioners could
went. They had given them credit for the motives by which not sign their names, but had to make a cross. 'this showed
they were actuated, and that they were satisfied with the pro- the state of education which prevailed, though they had peti-
mise of the Government. This had been the opinion of the tioned against its further extension. He though the Govern-
Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth of the Hon, went plan was the best that couid be carried in the existing
Member for Wiltshire, of the Hon. Member for Kildare (him- circumstances.
self a Roman Catholic), and other Hon. Membeys. He was Mr. HUME was at aloes to understand the last Hon. Mem-.
satisfied with their confidence, and the distrust of the Hon. and ber. lie lamented the want of education, but he seemed tiro.
Learned Member for Bath—( Hear, hear)—and, therefore, desire no measure by which that ignorance could bgoturifdwom
would not think it necessary to make any further Tile real question was to know how the complainedevi,tfet
lead ion shoulct
to be wet. He maintained that a system ;
observations; for these reasons he would not enter ht given to all,
into further explanations on the question.—(Hear, hear.) be earned out in which secular ednuctonowm..g
neighbourhood, in
The Hon. and Learned Member for Bath seemed to conceive religious education to follow.
of
ih
,200 persons who could not
Norfolk, there was apopulation that no good men could act without some particular interest had no school, and were it rendered im,
was served, and he did not seem to believe that any member of read nor write
h;, they
should have a Church Catechism they would
the Government could possibly have any object to effect except perative that
school
a at all.—( Hear, hear.) He would support
their own. When every member had; been, in the utmost de-
the°nt haveon Member for Dumfries.
gree, willing to relieve a starving and dstitute people,f
Mr. PROTHEROE could not look upon the proposition ci
when a great calamity had occurred, and for whose relies
dn as anything other than an extension of thw
all parties in the State had conjoined to assist, wise
voluntary principle. As he believed that the motion if agree
ther they be members of the Church of England, Protestants
to would bring the Government in conflict with • • agree
thew
religious sect
Dissenters or Roman Catholics.—(Loud cheers.) But the
in the countryDumfr, he ces old not
support the motion of the Ho*.
were o
Hon. Gentleman had given an expressive warning that there
Member for i.
were other populations which required the assistance of he After a few words from M
. r. W, MARTYN, which wed
vernment in consequence of the great necessity in which they
inaudible in the
gallery,
were placed, and saidfthat he had observed a triumphant smile
Sir W. CLAY said
at the expression which
on his countenance (Lord J. Russell's)
had fallen from him. But if such were the case the smil, was jetted,
he should certainly vote for the motion of his Hot.
not from the observations made by the lion. and Learned Friend the Member for Dumfries jibe pressed it. He thong*
Gentleman ; but from the recollection that the provisions of however, after what the Government had stated, it would le,
the minutes of 1839, had amply referred to the necessity of best to withdraw it for the r t p esen .
which the Hon. and Learned Member complained, But Mr. P. HOWARD would vote for the motion if press( '
the Hon. and Learned Member had a further complaint, and only he agreed with the last Member who spoke,
that
it wont
had stated that if a Ministry had come into power by some be better not to press it.
accident—and through the agency of its opponents—with . any After a few words from Lord HARRY VANE,
merit of its own, it would feel that it was requi •
red that it Mr. EW ART said, after the general expression of opiniv
would accomplish something this that was great. To ' .he (Lord by the House, he would consent to withdraw the motion.
J. Russell) might reply, that if a city in the west of England, The motion was then withdrawn
sent a representative, who, without any merit of his own, Sir G. CLERK said that he had heard with regret that t 1
was willing to gain notoriety of his own,
measures which he himself was unable by carp and cavil at Noble Lord had no intention to _ ,
The only reason armlet.
inclined to draw attention to his theories, to devise, that if he were Parochial schoolmasters of Scotland.
Now, if that wld
particular measure of his own to ideeovries, without having any was, that already there_Nev
e.s.„, at legalr, i provision.siuu
or raised to Le so,antin
dined to draw attention to theories whicihse, but was merely ssi,atit oeurghstototbheeraen
ought to' beP some allowance out of the grim
realised, were they to be attended to?— cwere never likely to I e that
The were
eble Lord saA that he could not agree to give any pa •
( beers.) If a certain
city in the west of England chose to of this grant to the schoolmasters of Scotland, as the grant e ,
from caprice, and without any merit send a Member merely
intended to be only in aid of voluntary efforts. But on wt.'
of his own, he should re.
member that there was alround was it, that, lifer a sufficient service, retiring pensir
ways a disposition to allow for the do- g• eto be denied to the sarnchial schoolmasters ? Yet it
ficiency. —(Load cheere.
) Bust the Hon. Member had stated were
Feared that the parochial schools were to be subject to f the example of the Hon. Member for Oxford, and that, in his
supervision of the Government inspector, and therefore the
opinion there ought not to be any ailowanceto the Roman Ca-
no reason. whatever tea deny them the advantage of those
tholies. But it as as on this account proceeding on the notion was.
that all opposition was founded on selfish motives. In short tiring pensions. The principle of the retihroinofumntseirosnsi,nerrieoi::
this matter,l which,
9
that there was no generosity—no consideration in any of. the interfered
enabled tewre ' b the schoolmasters
grant, they were a:
proceedings of any Member of that House, who was inclined
thorisei to receive pup s,
receive.; and . he trustedy therefore, that in fraink
to sapport the Government. But this he believed to be a
the minutes
tne minutes sufficient attention would be to this pantie •
very imperfect view of the question, arid without any reference , . i
...A ' the House, lan point.
to the question of religious opinion, elm. la

• •• •:.•