The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-05 00:00:00

Irish distress was brought forward the House resounded with loud I been twenty years a Member of that House, and he had
cheers. The Noble Lord pledged for the truth of what he said, ! never heard the Irish landlords so maligned as they had
he (Mr. Roebuck) did not know what value others might been by the Honourable Member for Bath (Mr. Roebuck).
attach to it—his own head. Ile pledged his head that he ' What right had he to attack the resident proprietors who lived
would fill the bellies of all the Irish with good mutton and 1 on their estates and spent theitrkmfoonr money;eyamon theyt th
had nevereirtenants?
sound ale, clothe all the men with the clothes of Manchester,
and, in !askedTh Irish
for any.—(Derisive landlords
cheers.) As they seemed to doubt
did not a
and bedizen their wives with the ribbons of Coventry ;
addition to all this, fill their pockets with English gold.— ,i his assertion, he would tell them, how money was lent
(Laughter.) He would ask, in sober seriousness, was it not a , to Ireland, and
larlate3lid a
pert 5 perowitwas
cent., a
repaid.fhteeTarrh h.e7inmogH was
eeneheyanppborrowed
elaed to
lent by
the state of the population of
y
sad exhibition to be made by any person in that House, and EnglandbyiMembers
rish to corroborate th
England cent.—(Hear,
truth of this assertion.—
to
was supposed to know a . England wha ?
was it not extraordinary for any How. Member to get up in the
that House, and say that he would feed the Irish people with 1 ( Hear.) It appeared that 330 loans had been made to Ire-
" mutton and ale" when the English people were not able to I land, three-fourths of which bad been paid back. 80 COO/. was
get either the one or the other?—(Hear, hear.)
What would I lent to the county of Kerry, every shilling of which 'had been
be said if some Scotch Member were to get up and say, the I repaid with five per cent. interest. Altogether 967,7551. had
people of Scotland must be fed I
at the
f expense of the English , been lent, 755,7391. of which had been repaid, leaving a
people with " mutton and ale?" the Government should balance unpaid of 231,000/.—(Hear, and derisive cheers.) Now
once step aside from its proper duty, he would like to know 1 with what face could the Hon. Member for Bath come forward
where
they were to stop.? He intended, as an English repre- 1 and charge the Irish landlords with mendacity? They had
sen
tative, the moment any Hon. Member proposed a grant for listened to his attacks as yet very good humouredly, but now
Ireland, to demand the same for England.—(Hear, hear.) It they should attack him in earnest.—(Laughter.) Then he
was but fair.— (Cheers.) He was glad to hear that, be. said he wished to have a clause introduced into the Bill to
cause he thought Hon. Members agreed with him; and if it be prevent Irish landlords from having any part of the money which
true what he had said, then the end would be a general scram- was to be voted ; but they never got any of the money which
ble for property; it would be like throwing all the property into England had debited her with. Then he talked of Irish
one " Hotch-potch," and then having a general scramble for gold. He (Mr. Grattan) remembered the time when there
the whole of it.—(Hear, hear.) It was quite clear that the was money in the Irish Exchequer. Now, no doubt the Hon.
measure was not 'adapted to meet the existing distress of the Member was conversant with history ; he would, therefore, put
country; the whole scheme was nothing more than a landlord's this question to him—Who took it ? Was it the Irish Mem-
scheme, in order to enable them to obtain higher rents for bers or the Irish landlords who took it? No ; it was the So-
their property, or to sell to the Government for enormons vereign of the country of which he (Mr. Roebuck) was one
prices.—("No, no," and ironical cheers.) Hon. Members of the representatives—it was taken by the English Sovereign.
might say, " No, no," but he was determined, if the Bill But what became of the English gold sent to Ireland ? Was
should ever go so far as the Committee, he would propose a it sent for virtuous purposes which they should espouse? or
clause to the effect that no Irish landlord, being a Member of to promote industry ? or to uphold the honour of the country ?
either House of Parliament, should receive a single fraction No such thing. It was sent there for the purpose of bribery, and
of the money to be advanced for the purchase of land belong- 50 generals and subalterns were poured into the country to brilm
ing to them through which the State-made railways should , with that gold, and to undermine her independence. But let them
pass.—( Hear, hear.) He was sorry that the Noble Lord had ! take it back again. There was a God in heaven, who, by his
not at once refused his assent to the measure. He was i wrath, would avenge such conduct. He rejoiced now that
anxious that the division should have taken place that night, 1 they had been brought on their knees before the Irish beggar,
and so have got rid of the measure at once and for ever. The and that they must do justice to those whom they had for cen-
Noble Lord at the head of the Government would one day ' turies so grievously oppressed. The Hon. Memberhad asserted
come down and say that he could not support the measure, ; that the Irish were now to be fed on English beef at the ex-
and the whole concern would go off at once like the snuff of I pence of England, but every cow imported from Ireland de-
a candle; and the Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn, would ' prived several persons of employment.—(Laughter.) We
have the gratification of having made a very long three hours' , talked of English gold going into Ireland, but how much gold
speech, of indulging in the brief glorification of having proposed ' was taken out of Ireland and spent in England ? A list which
a measure bold and comprehensive to all intents and purposes. was in his possession showed that a gentleman, the brother of
The Noble Lord could not move another step without the per- , a Member who took his seat the other night, spent in England
mission of the Government, and he most cordially hoped that ' 7,0001. a year which he derived from his estate ; another
the Government would at once put a stop to the further pro- having property in Sligo, spent 7,0001. in the same way ; in
gress of the measure. The House, he was sure, might have 1 Longford, 5,0001., in Waterford, 40,0001., and a number of
been much better employed than in listening for the last three others. The loss of 5,000,000 or 6,000,000 of acres of potatoes
hours to a proposition which every body knew would end in would not have reduced Ireland to her present state if she had had
smoke, and the whole thing would be dropped, and never be any back to support her; but as many of those to whom
heard of any more.—( Hear, hear.) the soil belonged spent its produce elsewhere, Ireland fell from
Alderman THOMPSON said, that if the Noble Lord at the sky to the earth. In Wicklow, where many landlords
the head of the Government had refused to allow the Bill to lived, the inhabitants, notwithstanding the calamity, were not
be read a first time, he would have been acting unfairly to- in so bad a condition as in other parts. He had read much,
wards the country, especially after the very able, eloquent, and had arrived at the opinion that no country could make laws
and practical speech made upon the subject by the Noble Lord , which would be suitable to another, therefore he hoped their
who introduced the measure. The Hon. and Learned Mem- 1 children would live to see that day when the union would be
ber for Bath had erroneously stated that the Noble Lord the I repealed, and when Ireland would legislate for herself. Al-
Member for Lynn had proposed to tax the people of England. though many modifications had been made in the criminal
He proposed no such thing, he did not propose to tax the i code, yet it contained several penal enactments. Let them not
people to the amount of a single shilling. All that be asked speak of the idleness of the Irish, bat of the misgovernment
was to lend the national creditor 16,000,0001. upon good and of that House, and of those who had so denuded the
ample security, upon good interest. He certainly thought the Reform Bill as to have reduced the constituencies
plan of the Noble Lord much more rational than that of the of Ireland to as few as thirty or forty. Through these and
Government, who proposed to advance 8,000.0001. and re- other causes the people had been destroyed and demoralised,
ceive back 10s. in the pound en that sum.—(Loud cheers.) and no doubt when they had been called upon to pay
He felt convinced that when the monied interest out of doors 30,000,000/. to relieve their distresses, they would no doubt be
had heard the scheme of the Noble Lord, they would consider glad to act like Cromwell, and to " send the It ish across the
his measure to be both sound and practical.—(Cheers.) The Shannon." They could not fail, ere long, to rue their mis-
reason why private enterprise hail not succeeded in Ireland deeds. He would not call the remarks of the Hon. Member
as in England was, that the gentry and landlords of that for Bath satire, he could not call them virulent, but rather the
country were induced to become subscribers to the several un- dripping poison of the shrivelled adder.—(Hear, hear, and
dertakings, on the expectation of receiving their rents, which laughter.) That Hon. Member, however, had not always
had never been paid, and on the sale of their land which spoken consistently of Ireland ; he had even been guilty of
had never been purchased by the companies.—( Hear, hear.) treason, or at least sedition, as in 1835 he said that America
With respect to the remarks of the Noble Lord at the head had fought for and obtained her independence, and advised
of the Government, that the railways proposed to be constructed Ireland to follow her example. Many an Irishman had been
Mere in the east and west of Ireland, and could not, therefore, hung for saying far less than that. He now came to deal with
benefit the people of the southern and the western parts, he common sense.—( Laughter.) The late Mr. Drummond, who
thought that the measure would have the effect of inducing was a great philanthropist, stated, many years ago, to adeputa-
those numerous relief committees which were about to be ap_ lion that waited on him on the subject, that he was very
pointed, to send those able-bodied poor who might anxious to see railways made in Ireland. He hoped the Go-
apply to them for relief, into the southern and western districts vernment would net reject the Bill, as it would give profitable
—to those parts where labour was to be obtained; and he sin- employment to 550,000 men, and produce the best advantages
cerely hoped that the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern- to the country. They did not want money lent at five per cent.
merit would not bring forward any technical ob- which they had borrowed at three and a half; what they wanted
jest ion upon the money clauses of the Bill.—( Hear.) was the common sense of England, the economy of Scotland,
Mr. POULETT SCROPE did not think that the arguments and the sterling honesty of the people of Ireland.—(Cheers.)
advanced by the Noble Lord (Bentinck) were so overwhelm- Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL hoped that the House would
ingly absurd as the Hon. Member for Bath supposed, and he have acted now as it had done on other cases of emergency,
was, therefore, of opinion that the course proposed by the and have sat from day to day for the purpose of passing, with.
Noble Lord ( Russell), in not opposing the first reading of the out the slightest delay, the Bills which the Government had
Bill, was the proper one, inasmuch as it would give the House introduced on their own responsibility. He thought. sincerely,
an opportunity of considering the applicability of the measure that some such proceeding ought to have been adopted ou the
to the circumstances of Ireland. He thoug ht therefore, the present occasion. Why was Wednesday last lost ? Why had
Noble Lord had exercised a wise discretion in not suppressing the greater part of that day been lest—or why a single hour
the discussion in limine. As far as he (Mr. Scrope) understood lost, when the distress in Ireland threatened the safety of the
the Hon. Member for Bath, he believed the leading scheme of that empires He, therefore, implored the House to consider
Hon. Member was, that it would be impossible for Ireland to whether it would not be well to meet the calamity by the
go on any longer as she was, and that it only was by a comb i. constant sitting of the House, and by pressing forward, with
tion of great and extraordinary measures that any change or the least possible delay, the measures which the Government
permanent benefit could be effected, if there was any chance of had brought forward for the purpose of affot ding relief to
success. He himself (Mr. P. Scrope) put forward a measure the people of Ireland.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") The
which he considered would be attended with very great advan- measure of the Noble Lord might be a good one, or it
tage in ameliorating the condition of the people of Ireland, and might be a bad one. There was certainly much speciousness
he was taunted with putting it forward as a nostrum in it as laid before the House ; but he would ask him not to
or panacea for all the ills to which that country was persevere in it until those measures proposed by the Govern-
subjected. He never put forward the English poor-law as the talent to meet the emergency of the time had been sanctioned.
sole remedy for the grievances under which that country The Government were responsible; in Heaven's name let them
laboured, for he never believed that it would have any such not divide that responsibility with them by delaying such
effect, unless there were other accompanying measures to projects as they believed essential. While they were de-
develop its resources. The Hon. Member for Tamworth and bating the people were starving.—( Hear, hear.) A good deal
the Hon. Member for Bath deprecated the interference with of time had been already lost, a good deal of the present night
the ordinary sources of industry, spoke of the expediency of had also been lost, and very intemperate speeches had been
leavieg commercial enterprise to private exertion. Now, made. He would have the House remark that it was not on
under ordinary circumstances, he (Mr. Scrope) thought that this the side of the Irish Members that that intemperance began—
would be a proper course, but under the peculiar circumstances it commenced on the side of the Hon. Member for Bath,
in which Ireland was placed, he held it wholly inapplicable. whose position he did not consider was in the least enviable.
They could never proceed by the usual rules of commercial He (Mr. .1. O'Connell) did not think, if his mind was
polity, in their exertions to improve the condition of Ireland. right, that his conscience could be easy.—( Laughter.)
The Noble Lord (Russell) talked of giving food in certain cases He did not think a right-minded man would have thrown into
without exacting labour. Now he wished to know how the the discussion the torch of useless discord. The people of Ire-
labourers were to be employed? He very much feared that land were perishing by hundreds ; their representatives had
neither the Government nor the Irish proprietors would be able come there with the sincerest desire and wish to repress every-
to absorb all this labour. The first condition for the development thing of an angry nature. He would ask the Hon. Member,
of Irish private enterprise, that is to say, the security of per- in the name of humanity, to permit these Bills to be passed.
sonal property, was wanting, and until that was secured, private He could then give notice of a day on which he would pour
enterprise would never low into Ireland. How could they forth his vile slanders, and they would then be ready to refute
expect it to do so ? The House might recollect the statement and answer him. The Hon. Member for Montrose had said
made in a report on Ireland by Mr. Nicol, and presented to that there had been numberless remittances of money to Ire-
the House in 1837, which was to the effect, that to give em. land. He held a Parliamentary paper in his hand, which he
ployment to labour capital was tvauted, and to procure capital had moved for himself which proved that since the union
security was necessary. That was the cycle and the order in there had been a surplus' received from Ireland of nearly
which they proceeded. The Noble Lord (Russell) proposed twenty millions of money, and that only up to the year 1815.
to employ some money in drainage, and to employ another He also found that about eighteen millions had been
portion in a plan which he (Mr. Scrope) would like to see advanced by way of loan to England and Scot-
carried into effect—the reclamation of the waste lands. land, out of which six millions two hundred thousand
But he thought, if the Noble Lord would extend had been repaid. While there had been nine millions lent to
his plan to give assistance to railways, it would be a good addi- Ireland, out of which seven millions had been repaid. England
tion. Under such a plan is that brought forward to-night by and Scotland had repaid six millions out of eighteen millions.
the Noble Lord (Bentinck), he could not but believe that it Ireland out of nine millions, within the same period, had re-
would be attended with the best results. He would ask, how paid seven millions. He would ask the Honourable Mem-
could they go on to feed the people as paupers, as they did at her, in the name of common manhood, to abstain
present? The voluntary employment given by the landlords of from his most envenomed and slanderous attacks. Until the
Ireland and the proposed measures of the Noble Lord, would measures calculated to relieve the calamity which existed had
not absorb the labour of the country, and he could not there- been passed. They would then have a short time to throw
fore but believe that a system of railways would be very away, and if he would come forward and state his case, they
beneficial in giving employment. He did not intend to trespass pledged themselves to refute him in every particular, or con-
upon their attention, but when such assertions were made with sent to acknowledge themselves the abject creatures he would
respect to the introduction of capital into Ireland, he could not paint them.--(Hear, hear.)
refrain from pointing out how erroneous such principles were, Mr. HUDSON did not intend to detain the House at any
for he believed by this course of proceeding, they would, in ten length, and he had only risen to express his complete concur-
years hence, be in the same condition as they were at present. rence in the proposal of his Noble Friend the Member for Lynn,
Colonel WOOD regretted the course taken by the Noble and to express his deep regret that the Hon. Member for Bath
Lord (Bentinck) and thought the arguments used by the Noble had introduced into a grave and commercial question matters
Lord (Russell) in opposition to the proposal, were unanswer. wholly irrelevant. It certainly was much to be desired that
able. In no country did the Government undertake the Hon Member would take to himself an evening to exhaust
the construction of railways. In France, where this interfere- his undigested bile.—( Hear, hear.) He considered that the
ence was said to exist, they were given to contractors. The Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) was entitled to their
people of England had already evinced their desire to assist the thanks fur the manner in which he received the
people of Ireland, but he thought they were not prepared to proposition, which, when carried out, he trusted
accede to the proposal of lending money for the construction of would lay the foundation of the future prosperity
railways. He was prepared to support the Government plans of Ireland. He did consider that the country was much infor the alleviation of the distrm which prevailed in that coon- debted to the Noble Lord for the manner in which he had met
try, but he could not bring himself to support a measure which the proposal, and he hoped that it would receive from
must ultimately fall upon the resources of this country. him that patient consideration which it manifestly de-
Mr. HUAIE thought that the Noble Lord ought to have served, and that when he came to look at the state-
stated the reasons why the former proposal of a similar kind had meets and figures, he would fully find that they were
not been acceded to by the late Government. The Hon. borne out by fact ; indeed, for their accuracy, he was
Member then read a letter from Mr. Trevellyan to Mr. Labou- quite willing to pledge himself. Let the House remember
there, written on the 6th Oct., 1846, in which he stated " that that they were not about to introduce themprinciple of for-
Mr. Goulburn and Sir R. Peel refused the application of warding public works by loans of mon ;he Hon. Member
money for such a purpose, on the ground that it would not go fir Montrose would recollect the C t onian canals.—(Great
aif
to the destitute labourer, but to the speculative shareholder." laughter.) Although the country roan which he came was
There was another paragraph of that letter, continued the Hon. not backward in enterprise. There esens.. one principle
Member, to which he wished to call attention—namely, " that involved in the Bill, which eminently' emeciineuended it,
the only portion of the money which would be applicable to the and that was, that he believed in his ,cottlinfence that
relief of the destitute, was what would be expended on the the country would not lose one sixpence by passing the measure.
earth-works, and this consisted only 'of one-third of the They were not going to tax the people to raise Ale money, as
whole, the rest being absorbed by engineering, Par- had been erroneously stated, they were only about to lend the
liamentary, legal, and other expenses." These were the reasons national credit. The Noble Lord had said that it *mild .die an
which induced the late Government in refusing to accede to interference with private enterprise, but the Noble Loreenisula
the application then made to them ; and he wished the Noble not surely contend that there was any chance of these rail-
Lord had used those arguments in his speech, for he (Mr. ways being executed by private enterprise. The Govern.
Hume) believed they were perfectly convincing. There could ment by adopting the measure of the Noble Lord would only
be no doubt, if these railroads did not turn out productive, they be following out the principle which was pursued in France.
would become a charge upon the resources of this country. France lent her money for the execution of public works—
The comparisons which the Noble Lord (Bentinck) made with they teould be thus enabled to model their system upon that of
respect to the relative returns of railroads in this country and the French, which had been desired by many. He had; it4rasse
in Ireland were not to be depended on ; nor did he believe siderable experience in these undertakings ;he had watch
that the anticipated advantages would ever be sea- progress and their development; he had seen a ban fr
lined. He regretted that railroads had hot been introduced into which they had entered became fruitful; het seen
earlier into Ireland. When that question was first introduced civilisation spreading her blessings around, and social inter-
to the House he strongly supported the propriety of construct- course very much promoted ; and he knew not why the same
ing the trunk lines, believing as he did that the expenditure results should not occur in Ireland. It had been urged that
they would occasion would be of great advantage to the labour- the measure would be a direct benefit to the landed interest.
ing classes, as well as to the commercial and trading interests Why there was no scheme which could be proposed to benefit a
of the country. He was in a minority on that occasion; and country, which would not immediately benefit that interest,
he believed the Irish county Members were most strenuous in and it was right that it should be so.—(Hear, hear. )
their opposition to it. Now he did not use that as an argu- The Noble Lord had very properly stated, that had not some
ment why assistance should be refused now, but looking at the assistance been granted by Government to the Liverpool and
arguments used by Mr. Trevellyan, and the other circum- Manchester Company, they probably would not have seen it
stances of the cases, he could not bring himself to the proposal, now completed. But would any one get up and blame Go-
es be thought no benefit would result. He was, therefore, vernment for having given assistance to that line?—( Hear,
bound to regard it as the Hon. Member for Bath did—a debt hear, and cheers.) Although that was a time when it
which would hereafter fall upon this country. His Hon. Friend was a speculation, but now the system of railways had
(Sir. P. Scrope) said that they were not to deal with Ireland been reduced to almost a practical certainty. He trusted that
oncommercialnot principles, and that the laissez faire principle the Noble Lord, when he came to the second reading of the
would do lie agreed with him that the laissez faire Bill, would deeply consider the measure of the Noble Lord the
would nut do there, nor anywhere else; but there was Member for Lynn, and give it the kind consideration it de-
no evidence that the original causes of the present condition of serves. He was, however, of opinion, that if the Noble Lord
that country were to be removed, and until this was the case rejected time measure he was bound to bring forward some
he did not think that commercial principles ought to be consi- equally practical measure.
tiered as inapplicable. He was informed by several Irishmen Mr. WARBURTON said that the question was, whether
that the removal of obstruetions to the sale of encumbered the capital was to be advanced by this country—whether the
estates, and the modification of the law of entail, would lay the English public would, at a period of this kind, engage in a
foundation ot great future good. He would say, then, let the scheme for advancing sixteen millions for the undertaking
land be free, and apportioned out in from 300 to 500 acres, and and completion of Irish railways. That was the question
he would engage that it would be sold for twenty-eight years' which her Maiesty's Government had decided, and he entirely
purchase. 'lime was given for land during time last few months. approved of the decision come to by them—that they would
Ily this mode of proceeding capital would be introduced, and not, on this occasion, engage in such a scheme. There was
the co
the purchasers et this land would develop the cat abilities of no occasion fur the House to enter into a discussion as to
untry. Let then, he would say, the commercial principle
operate, and it would be found whether they would enter into the scheme, or ascertafn
emploe meat, anti that it would give instantaneous whether it was desirable that the capital of England should
be theinhteiswt means of regenerating the be employed in Irish railways.—(Hear.) Occasion might
condition of the peo le.
plan of the Noble Lord would meantime, believing that the arise—either for military or police purposes. And was
notsidehe successful iu realising this a period for this country to engage in undertakings not
what was expected from it, he con
reeodf tat it was wrong to likely to be immediately productive? was it a period, when
hold out such expectations to the peul
the Government should continue telleir ' Ireland. lie thought their garners were full of corn, when there were large exertionsquanti-
to alleviate ties of food available, and money lying idle in
the calamity which had visited that countr the hands of the
,uTtndo,factl.. the same capitalists of the country ? They should
time, to impress upon the landlords the neie rather think of em-
their defies. He would also propose that jac Government ploying the agriculturist and the farmer in the production of
1 food before such a surplus could be embarked in such specula-
should deal directly with the people of Ireland witM, ttht,hse , tions. What were the circumstances in whirls they now found
for he believed thaat
di e themselves? They
instx umentality of the Lord-Lieutenant,
• s lost their force in consequence of this inter
6„ that the pro- at all were told that one half ot the ordinary
measui me ate food ofblrEelanndl was.destroyed, and ifcapitalwas to be employed
system of administration. Believin , as he did
posed measure for the construction of railways, if agreed to, labourers g and, it ought to be employed in setting the Irish
miry. Was thereeut anya
to work to produ
would only produce temporary good, while it would entail last- of food to ce for the next harvest a sufficiency
prev
man recurrenceof u
oomfm
ot hne t presentonao in ctahl aa-t
ing evil, be would give it his decided opposition.
Mr. GRATTAN said, amongst
f the exaggerated accounts House, or out of it, who could expect any other
potatoe, barley, oath or wheat, f
which were from time to time put "ward with respect to Irish than a distant return from such undertakings as the Noble Lord
landlords, he should not be in the least surprised, to-morrow, proposed to encourage, Would
pe tohveletiunrnnineg of the soil on rail-
totAugnue,,tceasnsdarsy Sep_
find, in the ordinary channels of information, that a party ways produce the
so ; and a Government insensate
of Irish landlords had been attacked by a person on the Bath I the consumption of the Irish
blunderbuss at them, ' tember, and during the wholeof -
road, who, after having presented a brass
the ensuing year? No man
which missed fire, made off.—(Roars of laughter.) He had of sense could say
must be if,