The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-30 00:00:00

to act as umpire. He would readAto the, House the
opinion of the law officers of the Crown, which would
show that the Government had not the pone to shut
up those Altanks. The question was submitted to them
" whether the Commissioners for the- reduction of the
National Debt had the power to close the banks?" and
their answer was, " We are of opinion thawe Coln-
mitsioners for the reduction of the national debt hare
no power whatever to close the banks." That was the
opinion of Sir Frederick Thesiger, Sir Fitzroy
belly, and Mr. Tidd Pratt. Thus it was the
opinion of the law officers of the Crown, that
Government had no power whatever to close the banks;
andswith that • opinion, he thought it would be hence-
forward hard to say that it was the duty of the Go-
vernment to do that which they had no power to do.
That was in 1845. He might also observe that the
Commissioners for the reduction of the National Debt,
had no duty whatever imposed upon them as to the
number of depositors; their only duty was to take ac-
count of the amount of the sums returned to them as paid
in, and to make a return of it. It was no part of their
duty to know whether the depositors were larger than
the Act of Parliament allowed. He would not at present
go farther into the matter than to repeat in conclusion,
that the House would do well not to proceed to the ap-
pointment of the Committee while the decision of the
Court of Law was pending.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL said it bad been stated to
those poor people, that they had Government security
for their money, and now it was asserted by the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer that they had no such security.
What, then, he would ask, were those poor people to do?
A great amount of suffering had been inflicted upon a
number of persons whose only fault was that they had
placed their trust in Government, a trust which, it ap-
peared, was a most mistaken one.
Mr. GROGAN said it appeared that the bank in
Cuffe-street was, in 1831, insolvent, and Mr. Tidd Pratt
bad found that this had been the fact. The Govern-
ment were aware of the insolvency of the bank, and
they were, therefore, blameable in allowing the bank to
receive deposits from 1831 to 1847. The Chancellor of
the Exchequer suggested as an answer to the case, that
a retrial of the case ought to tike place. How could
this be when the trustees resigned, and refused to recog-
nise the authority of Mr. Tidd Pratt to inquire into
the case. Then, again, the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer said that the Government were not liable for
the deposits in the bank in question. Now it ap-
peared that by the sth of George IV., that in the event
of the trustees of the bank not forwarding an annual
official account of the affairs of the bank to the
Commissioners for the reduction of the National Debt,
then the Commissioners had the power to order that
no account should be opened, either in the Bank of Ire-
land or England, with these trustees. Now it appeared
that for years the aecounte furnished by the Commis-
sioners were informal and defective, and yet they took
no steps to prevent this bank from carrying on its busi-
ness. This being so, the Government were undoubtedly
liable, in a moral point of view, for the money deposited
in the bank. Again, the Committee was opposed on the
ground that there was a legal point before the Courts of
Ireland in respect to the Dublin savings' banks. But,
long before that point could be decided many of these
pour depositors would be in a position to make it unim-
portant to them how the question would be settled in
Ireland.
After a few words from Mr. MORRIS,
Mr.COWAN said that this was a very important
question, but he must say that neither morally nor le-
gally was the Exchequer of the country liable for the
losses sustaiucd by the depositors in the banks in ques-
tion. At the same time it was the duty of the Govern-
ment to interfere to place the savings' banks upon a
more stable basis than they now rested on.
Mr. W. KEOGH said that in the case of the Kerry
savings' bank the gentlemen connected with the bank
made good the deficiency upon all sums up to 201.
(Hear, hear.) He would further state, as better illus-
trating the difficulties which gentlemen resident in Ire-
land had to encounter, as well as to account for the ex-
tent of the public distress, that out of the rents paid in
that country, amounting to 34,0001., so much as 30,000/.
bad to be transmitted to landlords resident in England.
—(Hear, hear.) He thought the comments which had
been made on the conduct of the Learned Judge who
presided at the trial, which had been alluded to, were
most unfair. Mr. Tidd Pratt had stated, that the de-
fendant in the case had afforded him every facility for
inquiry, and he would nsk how in such a case count the
defendant be held to be guilty of wilful default? He
could not believe, had he not hear I it, that such an
answer as had been made could have been given by
her Majesty's Government, to the motion of the Hon.
Member for Dublin (Mr. Reynolds). It had been ar-
gued that the appointment of a Committee would inter-
fere with the proceedings now pending in Dublin, but he
thought such an objection extremely. futile. It was next
alleged, as a reason against the appointment of the Com-
mittee, that there was no legal liability on the part of
her Majesty's Government. But who had said that the
Government had incurred any legal liability? If the
Government could be made legally liable, the depositors
would, no doubt, be advised to take proceedings to en-
force their rights. But if there was no legal liability he
would contend that the Government was morally re-
sponsible.—(Hear, hear.) But the Government had
neglected to use a power which the Act con-
ferred, and which would have been of the utmost mo-
ment to the public. By the 30th section of the Act of
3d William IV., it:was provided that if the annual
returns wire not made by a savings' bank, as directed
by tho 9th of Geo. IV., a notification of such de-
fault should be made public in the Gazette. No one
could doubt, had that provision been attended to, that
much mischief and loss to the public might have been
prevented. Another point he would call attention to
was, the circumstance that the actuary of a savings'
bank was called upon by the Act to enter into a bond;
and if that proviso had been attended to in the case of
the Killarney Savings' Bank, much loss to the deposi-
tors would have been prevented. Under all the circum-
stances, he thought a strong case for inquiry had been
made out, and the losses and injuries which had been in-
flicted upon a large class of depositors made it incum-
bent on the House to take the matter into their most
serious consideration.—(Hear, hear.)

Mr. GOULBURN said as the Hon. Gentleman who
had just addressed the House had made reference to the
Government of 1844, he hoped to be able to give a
satisfactory explanation of the circumstances to
which the Honourable Member had alluded. He
would first observe, that it was quite natural his
Honourable Friend the Member for Dublin (Mr. Grogan)
should speak warmly on the subject; but it was impor-
tant that the House should take a calm review of the
case. He held that it was quite erroneous policy to
make the Government responsible for anything that
was benevolent.—(Hear, hear.) Savings' banks had
been in existence before the Acts were passed, giving
Government a certain control, and that control was
given for the protection of the depositors, and net with
a view of Government being made responsible. The
distresses of the banks which had been alluded to by the
lion. Gentleman (Mr. Keogh), did not commence in
1844, but in 1831. A course bad been recommended to
the banks which, had they pursued, would have pre-
vented the consequences which had resulted. When it
bad been explained to him that the banks had not fol-
lowed the course they were advised to pursue, ho had
an inquiry instituted, and he found that the banks then
had the means of paying 18s. 61 in the pound, and he
accordingly advised the bank to close, and to make
the payment to the depositors to that extent.—
(Hear, hear.) The bank refused to do so, and then
legal advice was taken, as had been stated, when it was
found that the Government had not the power of closing
that bank. Perceiving, however, that the Archbishop of
Dublin was stated to be the president of the bank, he
(Mr. Goulburn) accordingly wrote to the Archbishop,
requesting that ho would use his influence to have the
basalt closed, when the Archbishop wrote in reply that
he was ignorant 'that he had been appointed to such
an. office, and could not interfere. The Right Hon. Gen•
tleman then alluded to the charge which had been made
that the Government should, at all events, have closed
the account; but he denied that any good could have re-
sulted from their doing so, and that it would not have
had the effect which the Hon. Gentleman had antici-
pated. The only other important question was, whether
it would be expedient to appoint a Committee. The
Hon. Member for Edinburgh (Mr. Cowan) had said that
a Committee, to make a general:inquiry into the state of
srvings' banks, would be very desirable, but that object
could not be obtained by means of the proposed Com-
mittee. It had been said that the pending legal pro-
ceedings should be no bar to the appointment of a Com-
mittee, and on that point he would observe that he had
no doubt the parties who had instituted legal proceedings
would not have the slightest objection to evidence being
taken before a Committee, as it would afford them an
opportunity of examining such evidence with a view to
supporting the legal proceedings which they had insti-
Hear, hear.) He thought the argument of the
tatted
Chancellor of the Exchequer an exceedingly good one.
Mr. REYNOLDS said that after what had been said,
as all the arguments were on his side of the question, he
was saved the trouble of replying.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
House divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment 49
Against it
Majority ......... -7
It was thus decided to add the amendment to the main
motion.
Upon our re-admission,
Mr. F. O'CONNOR observed that there were
strangers in the gallery, upon which it was immediately
cleared.
The discussion was continued with closed doors for a
considerable time.
On our re-admission the House had divided on the
main question, when there appeared—
For the motion ... 51
Against it
Majority

The motion was consequently carried.
The other orders of the day were disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Half past Ten o'clock.

A full report of the trial of Rush will appear in
the Observer of Sunday, April 1, and of Monday, April
2. The extensive publication of the Observer com-
mences at five o'clock, Sunday morning ; the Mon-
day's edition (best for the country and abroad) at four,
Monday afternoon. A sixpence, or six postage stamps,
enclosed to Mr. Clement, jnnior. 170, Strand, will insure
a copy of the Observer by return of post. The Ober.
ver regularly reports the parochial matters of Maryle-
bone, Pancras, and Paddington.
THE NAVY ann.—The members of the Navy
Club dined together last evening at the Thatched House
Tavern, St. Jame;s-street. Admiral Sir Augustus
Clifford presided, supported by Sir Thomas Hastings,
Admiral Sir Thomas Cochrane, the Hon. Captain Hot•
ham, Captain Talbot, Captain H. Munday, Captain
Cl ffird, Captain Elliott, Captain Townsend, Captain
Johnston, Captain Eden, and Captain Milne.