The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-09 00:00:00

EVEN, !NG 141,DITTON.

1 to defend that measure they could not defend that measure---
1 they could not find one single individual on either side of the
House, neither the Hen. Mover of the amendment nor the
Hon. klember for Finsbury, Isles had Seconded it, who had
recommended to the House to return to that system of Poor-
law relief s‘lsieh bad existed previous to the passing of the Act
of 1834. Ile hrti felt convinced that that would he the °ace,
hat when they came to look the subject. fully in the tare no
one would be found boll enough to stand up in that House,
and, calling him% slithe friend of the peer man, to rev ommend
to the British Parliament the reeturatiou of that system which
ii,raissbaoshuaf.irite,.sss injurious, as wasting the resources of the country,
than as operessieg and degrading the peasantry. He was sure
that no man would recommend a return to the system of
parish gravel-pits. He was sure that no man would wish
tsatipoi
nt. able-bodiedtb:,e,eiiorder
i,sei
alearshitoraie:refue,
:rinntt
itossoh:th:maat the
hyas
systemlst
osc:
hmo,ne.
h,
e:k,l:nn(tiooecl:knubentetetle u
clownpwastrel
the the
ns
.he ht gfhloierescte:bivia:disdl
idleness,
without
:t:h:got
ite
fteio,
afnats: gh
pittance
eobuwer
been
ho-
nestt
and industrious mars, who had saved a little pittance by
ts
ich
distinctly proved in evidence before the passing of the Act in
18:34. Labourers in that situation had been actually refused
employment, because they had money to maintain themselves,
and were laughed at by the other labourers, who called them
foils for lee Mg by their money ,as it was r nly saving the parish.
That accursed system, which had gradually been reducing the
peasantry of England to the condition of the Russian and tie
Polish serf, no man bail defended. His anticipations had been
ullv justified by the debate ; no one had recommended a return
to that system. Even his Honourable Friend the Mem-
ber for Finsbury had said, as for the system formerly existing,
t was absurd to think of going back to that. If it was admitted
that they ought not to return to that system, he hoped the
House would take great care not to be led by indirect and
concealed methods to d that which no ma i had openly ven-
tured to recommend. If they would not avowedly venture to
restore the system which had been put an end to in 1f34, they
should take care not to break down the principle of the system
which had been substituted in its place, and by so doing, re-
store the former system.—( Hear, hear.) He was sure that
such would be the consequence of adopting some of the views
advocated by his Hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury.
And if it were not for the security afforded by the
Commissioners a restoration of many of the former abuses
must take place. If he wanted a proof that there could
be no safety for the new system if en end were put to rho
existing Commission, he could not ask for anything more de- •
cisive than the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet who had
last spedeen. That Right lion. Baronet whose opinions, front
the position which he held in that House were entitled to
the greatest attention, who only five years ago had been
the Cabinet Minister of a former Government, in the speech
which he had made that night, while he was decidedly op-
principtleo awn?:y
kih•e,tuirfnatdcou
it,hteed,folrNonuelrd, system,
little by eliattll
dd'sotwe•pn
bya
step, inevitably lead to its restoration. The 'tight Hon. Gesele-
man had said that in the Bill then before the House souse provision
ought to have been introduced for a relaxation of the rules pro-
hibiting the administration of out-door relief, and although he
had, as might have been expected, abstained from those per-
sonal attacks c•n the Commissioners in which less responsible
persons had indulged, yet he had severely censured their con-
duct and the want of judensent exhibited by them in refusing to
sanction a'proposit ion of the Board of Guardians in the comity,
of Kent for affording out-door relief during the recent severe
weather. Now it appeared to hiss ( Lord Ilowick) that al i!
Commissioners had acted with a just and proper discretion ; he
was perfectly pessuaded that if they adopted the principle of
the Right Hon. Baronet, it would be, to make use of
a popular phrase, putting in the fine edge of the wedge, which
would be drivers on until the compleso restoration of that
old system was brought about, by which the great bulk of the
labourers in the South of England had been made dependent
in the winter on the parish pay-table. The Eight Hon. Baro-
net had said that there was no occasion, in those cases, to re-
sort to the test of the workhouse, as there could be no doubt of
the poverty of the applicants. It appeared to Lim that the
Right Hon. Baronet, in making that observation, had taken a
very imperfect view of the subject ; one object of gh.ing relief
only in the workhouse, had certainly been to ascertain if the
applicant was really in want of it. But that was not at all, it
was not oily the effect produced on the party receiving relief,
but it was the effect of example held out to others giving relief
out of the workhouse, which was the great ebjec:ion. If they
once gave relief out of the workhouse, they would diminish
the motives inducing other persons not unit not to apply for re-
lief before they wanted it, but to take care beforehand
,list they were net placed in a situation of necessity. It
was of great importance that the werlsirg classes should
be taught not to think lightly or trivially of seeking re-
lief. It was right that they should be encouraged in
the idea that every sacrifice and every exertion should be
made before they would consent to Eve or, Mie bounty of ethers.
Ile could not help hers adverting to the argument of the Hon.
:Member for Finsbury, that the condition of the law was such
that many persons were ready to undergo great suffering rather
than go inta the workhouse. He seemed to be of opinion that
• relief should be given as a is attcr of course, and that there
should be nothing painful or distressing attendirg it. He
would remind the Hoe. Member that, entil late years, it had
been considered the pride and boast of England that her pea-
santry were the most well-conducted, industrious, and
moral in the world, until their great objection to re-
ceive parish relief had been broken down ; for two
centuries after the passing the Act cf Elizabeth, the
term pauper had been considered a reproach and stigma, which
every English peasant sought. to avoid. 13y the injudicious admi-
nistration of the Poor-laws that feeling had been broken down.
Men at that time had no objection to rere ire parish relief.
Poverty in every rank of life, and in the highest as well as the
lowest there were those who were poor, was attended with
privation and distress, but in all classes every man of indepen-
dent feeling will undergo great suffering and privation before he
would consent to became a dependant upotithe bounty of others.
He thought lie had shown that it was of espial importance as
an example to others, as well as a test of want, that no out-
door relief should be afforded to able bodied persons. One
most useful effect of relieving in the workhouse, and in the
workhouse only, was this—that it net only induced
the labourers themselves to snake great efforts, but it also
induced their employers and wealthier neighbour; to make
great efforts for them before they came to that alternative. If
a farmer knew that he would have to mainta'n an able-bodied
labourer in the workhouse, lie would make great efforts to pro-
cure him employment out of doors. Tim Hight Hon. Baronet
tlse Alernber for Tamworth, had said that Devonshire, the
county in which wages were the lowest, N',as also the county in
which out-door relief had been mare common than its illy other
comae in England. Ile would stase a case which was the
exact convene of it. In the county which lie had
the honour to represent, he was happy to say that
even before the New Poor-law no out-door relief was
given to the able-bodied labourer, nor was relief eYei., given ..
in aid of wages, and the consequence was that, insteed,
of the miserable wages they received in Devonshire, the la- •
bouring population of that county was in a station of compa-
rative comfort and independeuce; residing in a part of England
where all the necessaries of life were much cheaper, where fuel,
that most important article, was very much cheaper thaw in the
south of England, wages were three cr feur shillings a week
higher than in Devonshire. He was convinced that it was ill-
judged benevolence to grant relief out of the workhouse, and a
course which tended to lower and degrade the general condition
of the labouring population.—( Hear, hear.) So general had
been the assent of the House to the principle of the measure that
lie would not go to greater length in the discussion ; he would
only say that he had tweed with great regret what had fallen
from the flight Honottrable Baronet the Member for
Tamworth respecting the term for which it was pro-
posed to continue the Commissioners.—( Hear, hear.) If
the system was a good one, and calculated to pat an end to the
evil.; of the old system, it was worthy the attention of the
House whether it was not sound policy to act in such a man-
ner as to convince the minds of the public that there would be
no shrinking from the system if it esuld not bo foreseen ss hoe
the Commission would cease to be necessary. He thought it
would be a great encouragement to that most mischievous agi-
tation out of doors, if they were to adopt the suggestion of the -
Right Ilon. Baronet. The altering the time to a lees., period
Sir 11. PEEL—WIy not snake it permanent.—(Cheers.)
Lord HOWICK weuld have no objection to that; there were
huh it was impossible
teloianntitteunan\c'eca.rasr,Ndo:llllellptuirtraogsey
aagittleaiiiilost upon
n the certainty of its
many objects to be effected by them, to w
to eau
g tainly the:sight that Boards of Guardians ought
to be
held responsible to some authority, to whom the poor
was
could appeal against any abuse of authority by the ad-
ministrators cf the law. It was of a greet advantage to have
their advice in cases of doubt, and immense sums had been
save'] through their interference in cases of disputed settlement,
which under the old system must have been spent in litigation.
isl•rsai st ;be ni
en) upon
forasi7
n esbnu(r)ry , into
had
s
fellers, respecting the rules of the Commissioners. 'The ex-
i
istine law sess defective, he woulul admit, in only requiring
o
eeneral rules to be submitted to the Secretary of State, so
that the same pirtieular rule might be erected by the Commis-
sioners in varionsunions withont being so submitted. The objc
of the clause in the new Bill as lie read it was to put an end 10
iin
Honourabledwn
Friend,e
this evil, and to prevent these rules which, although nut tech-
nically cel rse hisse ttwero in fact general rules from being adopted without be-
ieg submitted to the consideration of her Majesty's Governments
The only oiler part a filch it 'ails necessary to advert to was
with respect to the burial grounds, and as it created some preju-
dice in tne public mind, when it was thought that a clue had
been introduced to prevent the poor being bun d in the
ground where their ancestors had been buried, lie thought i
-bust just to the framers of the measure t.o say, that the classy
was intended to have a very different effeet ; that clause had
been introduced with the intention of meeting an evil much
complaired of. lie trusted, therefose, that it would hot go to
the country that the slightest intention existed on the part of
the Commissioners to prevent the settled poor frosts being bu-
ried in their own parish church-yard. He trusted the House
would excuse him for having
not allow the del ate to close without expressing his opinion
shi oiu,re
with respect to the measure.
s
to oppose
Mr. DARBY said that it was not Isis intention
thought many of
the second reading of the Bill, alt,
he
ele trusted that she
its previsions were highly objectionable,.i t
et()
burl
_-
al grounds,
Nol de Lord would give up the clause relative
i.eh
Urea being
occupied it so long, but he could
cud he trusted also that the
be considerably
opposite to the
his opieion,ll:e present Act W 2
/IC‘ COTlSiaered the refusal
provision of
the 43d of Elizabeth.
hard, mud he could not help
of out-door relief exceedingly
the Bill was to be to time,
thinking that if, from e
tin) it might be found that a labour
newed, on some ocea.s,'2h
succese. In the present feeling
taken from their parents wouldtel
test might be au-mitts!
no chance of the labour-test being ap-
plied, the House, he lt.u'eme7siderably modified. In
len•ulatiow, it would lead to the
isetighuiturttliii,rtrk;tlibautt iafiithecoweahst be
hoapop-
under proper n
plied
Although he did net intend to vote
best results.
second reading of the his ob-
nd 'fl thought
the t ought
was to pass in its present shape, he should cer-
. • , the measure reenaieed unaltered, a
the measure
would receive great alterations in Committee,
it he should net
offer any opposition to the second reading.
sir. RICE would not give his vote for the second reading
of the Bill unless under the hope that it would be consider-
ably altered in Committee. Ile could riot agree to the exten-
sion of the Commission for ten years. The Right Hen. Ba-
ronet, the Member for Tamworth, in alluding, to the rate of
wages in Devonshire, where the wages were extremely loves
heel stated that the expenditure in the poor-rates was there
higher than in almost any other county. In the eastern parts
of the eounty of Kent, there was irss out.door relief given
under this law than in any other part of the kingdom. The
wages varied front twelve to fifteen shillings ; they were new at
about fourteen shillie go, and the condition of else poor was
better than it had been for years past. In a large parish in
his (Mr. Rice's) neighbourhood, great edvantage had been
derived from the application of the werkhouse test. In that
parish, the year before this Bill passed, there were.n thbeet;,reie between
twenty and thirty labourers constantly
enTleynedtheir barrogets
7cati,r,u,srit. the
way, and though they did nothing buti sit
honest and industiou;
they received higher wages than tte,
parish, had very great
re-
spectable gentleman, res
idingtomwork in his garden. He be-
labourer. Within two years after the
difficulty in getting workmhene
present measure was to encou-
rage that the object Bill had passed, a
b%fUtrer ;- and as lie hoped to see many
rage the industrious .a
be ex sressenel,is general approval of the
detains the Meuse than , r,
principle of the.,
in Committee., he. would not now further
said he
regretted that no allusions had
the Noble Lord who had proposed this Bill to
been made by
that clause which would have the effect of annihilating so many
amendments
Captain