The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-30 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS, April 29.
The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four
o•cs cc

NEW WRIT.

On the motion of Mr. TUFNELL, a new writ was
ord.: red for the county of Galway, in the room of the
late T. B. Martin, Ess.q.
REPOR i'S.

The reports on the following Bills were brought up
and agreed to :
Claridge's Patent Asphalte Company.
Colchester, Stour 'Valley, Sudbury, and Halstead
Railway (Extension from Lavenham to Bury St.

Ed muncr4
Colchester, Stour Valley, Sudbury, and Halstead Rail-
way (Stour Navigation Purchase).
Manchester Markets.

Scottish Equitable Life Assurance Society.
Wolverhampton Gas.
Wolverhampton Rates.
LORDS' AMENDMENTS.
The Lords' Amendment to the Ipswich Gaa Bill were
further considered and agreed to.
TP IRD READINGS.
The Hartlepool West Harbour and Dock (Dock Ex-
tension) Bill was read a third time and passed.
On the motion of Mr. GREENE, it was agreed that
the order made on the 23d of February last, for re-
ferring the Leeds Waterworks Bill to the Committee of
Selection, be read and discharged.—That the Bill be
withdrawn. That leave be given to bring in a Bill "to
amend and enlarge the provisions of an Act passed in
the first year of the reign of her present Ma-
jesty, intituled, An Act for the better supply-
ing with water the town and neighbourhood of
Leeds, in the west riding of the county of York,' and
for more effectually supplying the said town and neigh-
bourhood with water." That Mr. William Beckett and
Mr. Aldam do prepare and bring it in. That the said
Bill be referred to the Examiners of Petitions, who
shall report whether any other standing orders apply to
this Bill than those which were provecho have been com-
plied witifibefore the Examiners upon the petition for leave
to bring in the Leeds Waterworks:Bill; and that the Exa-
miners have leave to sit and proceed on Tuesday next.
That the order made on the 22d day of April list, re-
ferring the petition of the " Trent Navigation Company,"
against the Ambergate, Nottingham, and Boston and
Ea,tern Junction Railway (Alteration of Line and
Branches to Nottingham) Bill, to the Committee on the
Bill, be discharged. That the petition be withdrawn.
On the motion of Mr. M. PHILIPS, it was ordered
that it be an instruction to the Committee on tho Man-
chester Corporation Waterworks (power to sell to the
Manchester and Salford Waterworks Company), and the
Manchester Corporation Waterworks (power to pur-
chase the Manchester and Salford Waterworks) Bills,
that they have leave to consolidate the said Bills into
one Bill.

HEALTH OF TOWNS.
Lord ROBERT GROSVENOR presented a petition
from the workmen employed on the Great Western Rail-
way in favour of the Health of Towns Bill.
Viscount EBRINGTON presented similar petitions
from South Molton, and from the journeymen tailors of
London.

RATE-PAYING CLAUSES.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented petitions from Nor-
wich praying for the repeal of the rate-paying clauses of
the Reform Bill.

EDUCATION.
The HoN. MEMBER also presented petitions from
parishes near Manchester against the Government plan
of education.

LIGHTHOUSES.
Sir A. LEITH HAY presented a petition from Peter-
head against the present Lighthouses Bill.
AGRICULTURAL TENANTS.
Mr. DEEDES presented petitions from Margate, and
other parts of Kent and the Isle of Sheppey,in favour of
the Agricultural Tenant Right Bill.
LAMBETH-BRIDGE.
Dr. NICIIOLL stated that, in the discussion which
recently took place on the subject of the proposed Lam-
beth-bridge, he said that Sir Samuel Brown, one of the
parties interested in that undertaking, was a member
of a mercantile house engaged in the manufacture
of chain cables, and that his object in the promotion
of the undertaking was no doubt to dispose
of some of his chain cables. He had since received a
letter from that gentleman, denying that he was actuated
by any such motive. He felt it his duty to make this
statement to the House, although at the same time he
must express that he did not consider it a very grave
charge to make against the member of a mercantile
house.
Sir DE LACY EVANS said that at the time the
statement was made he thought it most uncalled-for.
FOREIGN WINES.
Dr. BOWRING gave notice, that on this day fort-
night, he would call the attention of the House to the
desirableness of reducing the duties on foreign wines.
PROPERTY-TAX FOR IRELAND.

Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD gave notice that, on
the motion for going into Committee on the Railways,
Piers, and Harbours (Ireland) Bill, he would move a re-
solution, that it is expedient to impose a tax on the pro-
perty of Ireland to construct public works in that
country.
SCOTCH REGISTRATION BILL.
Mr. DENNISTOUN. presented a
petition from Glas-
gow against the Scotch Registration Bill.
IRISH DISTRESS.
Lord SANDON presented a petition from Liverpool,
which stated that by the official returns the number
of Irish paupers who' had immigrated was 150,000.
only 40,000 of whom had emigrated, while the rest were
wandering about the town; the petitioners prayed that
the House would take their case into consideration.
ENCOURAGEMENT OF EMIGRATION.
Lord LINCOLN gave notice that he should move for
an humble address to her Majesty, praying her to take
into her gracious consideration some means by which
emigration and colonisation might be effectually pro-
moted.

t e most happy to devote the best attention that lay in
his power to a consideration of the circumstances of such
cases.

year 1831 a Commission was appointed toinquire into this
subject, and he would trouble the House by reading
portion7aiiouisof ha Coat
tofthe which( i had,
ei t,
uri
u u resultedr7til
k,e
tla;
then read extracts from the report, which al •
hs
otracti.eithferom tl,e
Exche-
quer, and that means should be taken to, avert tills evil.)
nationaliege d th
that
tuns moneyswtth had been
sanctiona
And what were the signatures to this nocument? The
d
out the
first was a Noble Lord, late a Member of that House,
now no longer among them, Lord Congleton ; the next
was the Noble Lord the First Lord of the Treasury ; the
third was Sir James Graham ; the fourth w as Sir James
Kent ; the fifth was a late Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, the Right Hon. Francis Baring—(Hear and
laughter)—and the last signature was that of the Hon.
Member for Coventry, Mr. Ellice. Now, he ventured
to say that six more respectable signatures on the pre-
sent question could not be introduced into that nous e
If the accounts of the different departments were made
out according to one form, or that each of them could be
easily carried into the general balance-sheet of the re-
ceipts and expenditure of the country, they would come
properly under the revision of Parliament; time would
be saved, mistakes avoided, and unnecessary or ex-
travagant expenditure obviated, as each item would,
as now, have to be voted by Parliament before
it could be liquidated. In the report of the Com-
mittee on Naval and Military Reform, presented in 1831
and 1832, they were informed that the receipts and ex-
penditure of the different public departments of
France were made out according to one uniform
plan—(Hear, hear)—and that, as they were all
formed on one model, they were easily blended in one
general whole, in the periodical balance-sheet of the
finances of the country. He did not know
whether any separate entries, OR this plan, were
kept at the Treasury. When he was connected with
that department of the Government, none were kept
having the receipts and the expenditure relating to the
different departments, andlarranged under different heads,
but it was quite clear that the public accounts
ought not to exist as they did in this coun-
try. The mode adopted in France formed
a sad contrast to the one adopted here, in which
he had shown that seven millions sterling an-
nually escaped Parliamentary control.—(Hear, hear.)
In the Admiralty department the Right Hon. Baronet
opposite had done much to reform the system of accounts,
but still there was great room for improvement. The
Admiralty was always in possession of money, and
always expending more amounts than were authorised
by Parliament. For instance, a few years ago,
no less a sum than one million of money was
expended by the Admiralty beyond the estimates
submitted by Parliament. Now, if some definite and
clear system was kept at tho Admiralty, and when pro-
perly audited and made up to the particular date pre-
sented to Parliament, such an excess of expenditure
would not arise without the authority of that House.
He thought that independent of this security there
ought to be authority from the Exchequer itself.
He found • that in the year 1843 there were deduc-
tions from the public revenue of about 5,000,0001., and
appropriations 1,199,0001., making some 7,000,0001. ;
and in the year after the deduction amounted to
6,155,0001., the appropriations to 767,0001., making in
all nearly 7,000,0001. ; and so it was in every
year down to the date of the latest returns.
inasmuch
as might be met with the objection that,
as the Customs could not know what sums might be ne-
cessary, that they could not avoid drawing at times con-
siderable overplus. The Excise had retained about
the same sums retained by the Customs, viz.,
for drawbacks, &c., 830,0001.; for the charges of
collection, 968,380/.; for further payments, 94,700/.;
and for the superannuation fund, 7,758/. Large
sums were also retained in other departments,
under similar heads, ai;d for all of which it
would be very easy to obtain a Parliamentary grant.
They would not discharge their duty to the public unless
they took measures to effect a remedy. Considering the
public burdens, he thought they had a right to have
an account of all sums paid into the Exchequer, and ex-
pended under the control of Parliament. The same
system prevailed regarding the Crown lands, in
which there had been expended last year, 40,000/.
for collection, 285,0001. for other purposes, and 232/.
for the superanuation fund. Altogether there
had been expended last year in this way upwards of six
millions of money. In the army and the navy about
190,0001. was expended in this way, and the same
mode was adopted in many other departments of
the state s in the military departments 110,000/. There
were a great many smaller sums, and the whole
amounted to 909,6001., which these departments
had received, not from the Exchequer, but from
other sources, and without the consent of Parliament.
The Hon. Gentleman then referred to other reports :
which stated that there was no instance on record
of a Government who had adopted the mercantile
system of keeping accounts' abrogating that
system, and that the adoption of a system of double
entry had been followed with the best results, as
it had led to much comprehensiveness, and at once
shown the state of a nation's financial condition.
An order had been made for the introduction of the
double entry system into all the public offices ; but he
regretted to say, that from a return he had obtained
on the subject, it appeared that it had not yet
been introduced into the Home Office, the Ordnance,
the: Board of Control, the Customs, or the Stamps
awl Taxes. Now, he did think he had made out
his case for a change in the existing plan, and he
hoped the House would therefore agree to his motion.
Having said this much, he would sit down by moving
the resolutions.
Mr. WILLIAMS seconded the resolutions. He thought
the question raised one of great national importance. The
Honourable Gentleman had adduced so many
facts, that he could not see how the Govern-
thinaetdeh,atdhaitn
iftorsnaheenrldyheaavres
bdeeenclared
Govern-
ment could oppose them. He wondered, after the
highaga author utheoprirteisees
present
per-
sisted in to the present day. His Hon. Friend had
proved that last year more than seven millions had been
intercepted in its progress to the Exchequer, and this
evil had been increasing year by year for a long time.
In 1841, when the Right Hon. Baronet the Member
for Tamworth came into office, he complained of the
state of the finances of the country ; and on that occa-
sion he (Mr. Williams) called the attention of the House to
the labours of a Committee that formerly sat on the ques-
tion. He also called their attention to the fact, that about
fifty millions of taxes in 1806 were collected for
9,790,000/., while in 1845 the collection of 56,460,0001.
cost nearly five millions.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.)
From this it appeared, that while the collection in the
year 1806 was but 44 per cent., in the year
1845 it had risen to 8i per cent. In the year
1843, though a great reduction had taken place in the
Customs duties, there had in 1843 and 1844 been 114
new places created. In the Post-office also in the last four
years, there had been no less than 4,063 places created.
In 1806, during the administration of Mr. Pitt, the cost
of the collection of the revenue, which was under the
strictest supervision, did not exceed from two-and-a-half
to three per cent. at the most. Reference had been
made to various departments, and with respect to one of
the departments mentioned it was set down as 360,0001.,
while the whole amount brought into the Treasury
was 120,0001. Sir Henry Parnell, afterwards Lord
Congleton, recommended that the public accounts should
be kept on one plan, and the ability displayed in his re-
commendations were well worthy the attention of the
House. He hoped that the Government would give this
important matter their serious consideration. He was
sure they could not render the country more important
service than by giving their assent to the motion of his
Hon. and Learned Friend.
The motion was then read.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (who
was very indistinctly heard in the gallery) said he feared
the subject was not a very interesting one, and he
should, therefore, be as brief in his observations as the
importance of the subject would admit of. He wished at
the outset to bear testimony to the experience of the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman. He had the greatest re-
spect for the gentlemen whose names were appended to
the report to which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had
referred. But at the same time he could not help stating,
that it was found impossible to carry out the recommen-
dations it contained. Even Lord Congleton admitted
that the whole of the recommendations of the Board from
whence the report emanated could not be carried out.
Yet great advances had been made during the last few
years in improving the mode of keeping the public ac-
count,; even the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had ad-
mitted that great improvements had been made in the
Treasury in this respect; and it was only last year, that
her Majesty's Government introduced a Bill
which he had the honour of passing through its ad-
vanced stages soon after he came into office, for the
purpose of promoting a better mode of keeping accounts
in certain departments of the Government; but the Go-
vernment had not been able to carry out all the im-
provements they wished, in consequence of the pressure
of other business, particularly the state of Ireland.
Haying said thus much, he could not allow all the state-
ments ef his Hon. Friend to pass unnoticed. If any-
body would look at the returns to which the Hon. Gen-
tleman had referred, it would be seen that in respect
of certain departments it was utterly impossible to adopt
his plan. Then again, the appropriations in aid ; these
were sums voted by Parliament. It was necessary that
the sums thus voted for that purpose should continue to
be accredited for as they were ; as it would thereby
increase the efforts of the officers of the different de-
partments to realise as much as they possibly could
by the sale of the old stores. The Hon. and Learned
Member had complained that the House was not aware
of the salaries paid to the various clerks and officers in
the different departments of the Government. He (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) thought that it would not
tend much to facilitate the business of the House if votes
were to be taken singly for, the amount of the salaries
paid to each individual collector, clerk, surveyor, or
tidewaiter ; but every information might be obtained
upon the subject by application at the offices of the
various departments. The charges of collection was
laid before the House every year. Another charge
brought forward by the Hon. and Learned Member was,
that there was an increase in the charges of collecting
the taxes under the heads of Stamps and Excise,
during the last ten years. If the Hon. Member
would look to the amount collected in the
years to which he referred, he would have
seen that in 1836 the revenue under those heads
amounted to about 11,000,000/., while in the year 1846
it amounted to upwards of 17,000,000/. ; it was, there-
fore, clear, that increased charges of collecting would
attend the collection of an increased amount of revenue.
The Hon. Member for Coventry had also alluded to an
increase in the Post-office department ; but surely,
when it was considered what an enormous amount of in-
creased facilities were given to the public by that office,
it could not be a matter of complaint that the charges
under that head had also considerably increased. It the
public would have increased facilities, they must, at least,
be content to pay an increased charge for the same. If
the Hon. and Learned Member would point out any details
in which there was any ground of complaint, he would

Mr. BROWN wished to ask the Right Hon. Secretary
for Ireland a question with reference to certain sub-
scriptions, said to have been made in the United States
for the relief of famine in Ireland. It had been stated
that a committee of gentlemen in the United States, had
obtained from the Secretary at War of the country the
use of two ships of war, which they employed in
conveying food, raised by voluntary subscriptions,
to the relief of their starving brethren in
this side of the Atlantic. If such a course had been
taken by any gentlemen in the United States, it was
most desirable that the country should know it.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that he was glad to be
enabled to answer the question, of which his Hon.
Friend had given him notice. He thought that the
best way in which he could give that information
would be by reading an extract from a letter which he
had received. The letter was from Mr. Ewing, who
lately represented the United States in this country, and
who, when he left, carried with him the esteem and re-
gard of everybody who knew him. The letter was
dated the 26th of March, and stated that the vessel which
conveyed it was a vessel of war, which had been lent for
the purpose by the Secretary at War, and it conveyed
food for the relief of Ireland to the value of 100,000
dollars. These supplies were collected, one-half in
Boston, and the other half in the interior towns. It
was commanded by Mr. Forbes, a gentleman of high
consideration in the United States, who had volun-
teered his services gratuitously, in order to enconomise the
food as much as possible in its distribution. The officers
were also persons of consideration, who had volunteered
their services gratuitously. That ship arrived at Cork,
and would, as it was stated, soon be followed by another
with a similar cargo,—(Hear, hear.)
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS.

Dr. BOWRING said, that on various occasions he had
sought to call the attention of the House to the im-
portant subject which was involved in the resolutions
which he was about to propose with regard to the proper
appropriation of the public funds. He would, in order
to acquaint the House with what he proposed, read the
'resolutions which he intended to submit to their con-
sideration. The following are the resolutions he had to
propose:-
1. That it appears by official returns which have been
laid on the table of this House, that a sum exceeding
seven millions sterling is annrally rxpended in the dif-
ferent departments of Goverzon..lJ. without being paid
into her Majesty's Exchequer, or subjected to any preli-
minary Parliamentary sanction or control:
2. That it appears by the returns ordered to be
printed in the last session of Parliament, that sums
amounting to 6,152,3941. 14s. 9 1-6 d., were deducted by
the various revenue departments from their gross re-
ceipts, and intercepted in their progress to the Ex-
chequer, for disbursement in the said revenue depart-
ments, in the year ending the sth day of January, 46.
3. That it appears by the same returns, that in the
said year the sum of 909,6101. 12s. 2d. was received by
various departments of expenditure, from sources inde-
pendent of Parliamentary grants, or issues from the
Exchequer, and that such sum has been or may be ex-
pended without previous Parliamentary examination and
control.
4. That forithe security-of the public revenue, and:the
accuracy, simplicity, and completeness of the public
accounts, it is desirable that the gross receipts of all the
departments of revenue should be paid into her Majesty's
Exchequer.
5. That no department of expenditure should be al-
lowed to receive money from any quarter other than her
Majesty's Exchequer, under Parliamentary vote, and
that all sums received for stores, fees, fines, or from any
other similar sources, be paid into her Majesty's Ex-
chequer.
6. That every department of receipt be required to
present an annual estimate of anticipated expenditure,
and that such estimate be submitted to the sanction and
approval of Parliament.
7. That, as this House has, by its resolutions of last
session, recognised and approved of the principle, and
directed it to be adopted in the Crown colonies,
that the gross revenues should in all cases be paid
into the Public Treasury, there is no sufficient rea-
son for delaying the application of the same prin-
ciple to the revenues of the United Kingdom ;
and that this House concurs in the recommen-
dation made by the Commissioners of Public Ac-
counts in the year 1831, " that no portion of the public
treasure should be arrested on any plea or pretence
whatever off its way to the Exchequer, and that no
portion of it should be issued from the Exchequer
without previous Parliamentary sanction;" and " that
it is only by the adoption of this principle that any
really efficient and complete control can be introduced
into the different departments of the public service."
Now, be did not require to state to the House that there
were two great departments required for the business of
the State, namely, that of receipt and that of expendi-
ture ; and he held that the Government would be
neglecting one of its most important functions if it
did not see that all the taxes raised from
the people should reach her Majesty's Exchequer, and
also that no portion of these revenues should be issued
excepting under the authority of the State. These re-
-solutions were no novelty in that House, for in the

Mr. fl U" wae surprised that the Chancellor of th•
Exchequer should object to a general system of accounts
of so simple a nature that any child could understand
them, which could be carried out by inserting in one the
accounts of the various boards or departments of a
simple debtor or creditor reecount, to be submitted
annually to the Parliament. The Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer did not appear to have improved himself in the
least in spite of all the experience which he had had in
the business of the House. He most cordially supported
the motion of his Hon. and Learned Friend.
Sir G. CLERIC thought the resolution of the Hon.
and Learned Member turned upon two points—first,
that no sums whatever should be paid away by any
public board which was not first paid into the Exchequer
of the country; and then, if any returns or drawbacks
were required, such sums should be allowed out of the
general Exchequer of the country. Now, to such a re-
solution he begged entirely to object. The present mode
of keeping the accounts of the country, was that recom-
mended by a Select Committee of the House appointed
some years since, and proved as effectual and as
accurate as any mode of book• keeping adopted
in any of the commercial houses in this country.
In Scotland the expenses of the civil Government were,
by Act of Parliament, deducted from the sums collected,
the net suns, less these expenses of collection, being paid
into the Exchequer, and if any other plan were intro-
duced, great anomalies would be the result. Why, if
the plan of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman were to be
generally adopted, a merchant at the clearance house
would require his bills to be paid in cash to his bankers,
and any deduction would have to be returned by him in
cash, or by cheque, instead of deducted and arranged at
the time of the clearance. Enquiries had been instituted,
and it was found that no better plan than thatadopted in
the Ordnance could be adopted. For instance, they sold
old stores, and purchased new articles which might be
required, out of the funds which they realised. And
then it was in the power of every Member
of the House to move for returns, showing the
receipts and expenditure of each department, so that
misappropriation could not take place under such vigi-
lant supervision. The Hon. Gentleman bad stated that
7,000,000 was intercepted in its way to the Treasury ;
but if he would look into the public accounts in detail
he would find that vouchers were taken for all the sums
paid, and that the whole amount was duly accounted
for. Then he could not see what good could result from
furnishing in detail the expenditure of every small
custom-house department in the kingdom, or of every
small post-office. It was upon these grounds that he
could not accede to the poposal of the Honourable,md
Learned Gentleman. The Hon. Gentleman the Member
for Dorchester introduced a Bill for the purpose of aim-
plying the accounts of the Exchequer, and since that
time great improvements had been made in the mode of
keeping the public accounts. The system adopted in
France, he believed, had not been so beneficial as the
lion. and Learned Gentleman had stated. He trusted
that the Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer would not hold out to the Honourable Gentle.
man any hope that he would adopt his recommen-
dations. Why, he could not carry out the first
part of it—that part was particularly objectionable.
If it were adopted, every small sum received at the
Post-office of Ireland, would have to be remitted to this
country, before any deductions could be made from it
for local expences. He saw no reason for altering the
mode of keeping the public accounts ; and, therefore,
he could not give his support to the motion.
Mr. F. T. BARING admitted the great importance of
simplifying the public accounts ; but since the recom-
mendation of the board, to which the Hon. Gentleman
had referred, great improvements had been introduced,
and no doubt the Government would avail itself of every
opportunity of introducing fresh improvements. It was
right, undoubtedly, that all sums for the different de •
partments of the Government should be voted by the
House ; but they must vote the sums in masses, and
not in detail, otherwise they would be wholly unable to
do so. Parliament should have the control of the whole
expenditure of the country—(Hear, hear)—but with re-
spect to appropriation, he might say that it was necessary
that each department should have the credit of its own
savings, instead of being carried to the gross accounts
of the nation—that small or important local and inciden-
tal expenses should be deducted from the receipts, in-
stead of the gross receipts being paid ieto the Treasury,
and every small sum that might be required, voted by
the House. For instance, the departments which had
articles in their possession which could be sold, should
have the power in their hands of selling them at the time
when they thought they could make the best bargains,
and should have the power of devoting the receipts to
something for which they might stand in need, taking
care, however, as now, to keep succinct accounts of all •
their transactions. By a return, he found that in 1822,
5,688,0001. was expended without passing through the
Treasury; but he also found that it had been reduced
in 1846, to 4,630,0001., showing that a considerable re-
duction had taken place.
Sir J. GRAHAM would only occupy the House for a
short time while he made the observations which
be intended. With respect to the public accounts, he
agreed entirely with the Hon. Member for Bolton, that
the system of double entry should be employed in all
cases in the public service. While in office, on a former
occasion, he bad been the means of introducing it into
many public public departments, and the present Go-
vernment had introduced it into the army and the Ord-
nance departments. The Hon. Member, however, ob-
jected that the same system was not introduced into the
Home-office, but it should be borne in mind that that was
scarcely on the same footing as any of the other Govern-
ment departments which had been alluded to. He had
been a party to the report of 1831, and to the principle
of that report he still agreed, though like the Hon. Mem-
ber for Portsmouth, he had since seen reason to modify
his opinion ; in doing which, he had acted under the
example of the late Earl Spencer, who had given the
question the greatest consideration. With respect to
the public accounts, all inquiry that could be made was
already gone into, and the most perfect system of booking
now prevailed. The real question, therefore, left for
consideration was the payment of the public money
without first going into the Exchequer. Now, he main-
tained, as a sound principle, that no money should be paid
from the revenue of the country unless it first went into
the Exchequer, and should go into the estimates, but he
s
opinion that any other course than the present one
would not work. As it regarded the danger of improper
application, this was provided against by the fact that
every year the accounts had to be laid on the table,
y
when they would be open for any Member to call any of
impossible
was
h r
it Spencer
decided
o
had
the items into question.
Lord J. RUSSELL rose to speak,
When an Hort. MEMBER moved that the House be
counted.
The gallery was then cleared, but there being 40
Members present, the House resumed.
Lord J. RUSSELL rose merely to say that he was ono
who, in 1831, signed the report, but since then he found
that Lord Althorp was right, and that he was in error.
Dr. BOWItING briefly replied, and said that after
the expression of opinion which he had obtained, he
would withdraw his motion.
THE STATE
OF THE NAVY.
Mr. HUME then rose to move for an inquiry into the
state of the navy since 1832, as regards the building,
alterations, and repairs of her Majesty's ships. He said
that about fifteen years ago, he had called the attention of
the House to the state of the navy, and be was sorry that
the evils he then complained of had not since been re-
moved. He stated then that the arrangements for the
building of the ships of the navy were of the most imper-
fect character. Since that time the greatest scientific
progress had been made in this country, especially in the
application of iron for naval purposes, yet he would, be-
fore he sat down, show the House that the navy had not
participated in these improvements. At that time the
Right Hon. Member for Dorchester (Sir J. Graham)
was at the head of the Admiralty, and had, as he (Mr.
Hume) had then stated, most unadvisedly put an end to
the School of Naval Architecture which had then
existed twenty•one years. Before he showed what
the Right Hon. Baronet destroyed, he wished to
show why the school had been established. The young
men who bad come forward—and they belonged many of
them to the most respectable families in the country—
had inducements held out to them, that if they excelled
in their departments, they would be eligible for appoint-
ments. He would read to the House an ex-
tract or two from the report of a Commission of
1806. The Honourable Member read an extract,
showing that at that period the apprentices in the
dockyard did not receive the commonest elements of
education, although, in after life the safety of the British
navy was dependent upon them. The Commissioners
recommended that this state of things should be altered,
and the Government in 1811 established a school for
naval architecture. At that time the builders of their
ships were mere copyists from other countries. The Go-
vernment held out to the pupils hopes that those who
were attentive to their studies should be entitled to the
emoluments of the dockyard, as master-measurer, mecha-
nists, shipwrights, and inspectors, with salaries vary ing
one.ortls y C
from 100/. 1000/. a-year. Mr. Peaks was one of those
persons deprived of this public benefit. The Right Hon.
of the name)
ertainly not
Baronet had said, that the institution had failed of pro.
ducing the good effects that were anticipated from it.
He thought the fault lay with the Government themselves.
They ought to have corrected the errors of the system,
instead of extinguishing it altogether. Since that pe-
one of the ships, lately built, would compare with the
Thetis, or any other ship built by these pupils. Many
of the pupils had eminently distinguished themselves.
whouui dt ?a s kH,
if
Where had they a treatise like that published by Mr.
hriaocld'beheen eifbelniyaevesdhipno(tw
Chatfield, or papers like those published under the
superintendence of Mr. Cruesse . He would now give
them the number of ships built since 1832, and the his-
tory of their construction ; and. he would prove that
they had been, in almost every instance, failures. He
in almost every instance, the
would prove that, _ , objects
required, namely, stronger and fighting qualities, had
not been obtained ; he would prove_ also that their al-
terations had been interminable, and that scarcely one
of those ships answered the purpose for which they were
intended. He did not wish, by any observations of his,
to throw discredit upon Captain Symonds, but he blamed
the Admiralty, who could allow these proceedings to go
on. Captain Symonds, like every other man, was ready
and willing to retain his power and his position, and
he (Mr. Ilume) could not blame him for so
acting. It was human nature. But where an im-
portant trust like this of the British navy, was concerned,
it did become a question whether he had exercised that
judgment wisely. He (Mr. Hume) had taken the trouble
to see what was the amount of money which had been
a • the fifteen years
voted for wages during , and he must
acknowledge that it was a very large sum ; but if that
money had been applied properly, he should have
thought less of it. It amounted to twenty-two mil-

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY ErErNIN Cr,
_APRIL 301 1847

Eons ; and he ventured to say that he would prove, if
this inquiry took place, that a very large pr p ,rtion of
that sum had been wasted. Under the two votes of
: 9rtil na7al n !Ird 19.1
S,OCO OJOL had bkun grantcd fur tho former at.:l
I-1,000,0001. for the )arts r. Deducting the vote of this
year, 19,000,0001. would be left as the amount of the
stores under the direction of Captain Sy-mord,. The
statement as to the ships laid down during the same pe-
riod showed the following results:—
Ships of the Line, on Sir W. Symonds's design, laid
down since 1832 ...
On designs by the former surveyors, laid down in
1812 to 1828
On the French model of M. Sane ...

... 9

Total launched ...
Frigates, on design by Mr. Fincham, laid down in
On Sir W. Symonds's designs, laid down since 1831
On designs by the late surveyors, laid down in 1820
to 1828 ...
On the French model of Pestel, laid down in 1828...
On design of School of Naval Architecture, laid
down in December, 1844 ...
On design by Admiral Hayes, laid down in 1836 ...
On design by Captain (now Admiral) Elliot, laid
down in 1842

... 1

Total launched ... ...
Corvettes, on designs by Sir W. Symonds, laid

down since 1831 ... - ... ... - ... ...
On designs by the late surveyor, Sir B. Seppings,
laid down in 1830 ... ... ... ... ...
On designs by Professor Inman, laid down in 1827
On designs by Captain (now, Admiral) Elliot, in
1836 ... . . ---

... 1

Total launched ... ...
Brigs, on designs by Sir W. Symonds, laid down

since 1831 ... - ... ... ...
On designs by Captain Hendry, R.N., laid down

in 1842 ... ... ... ... ... ...
On designs by different master-shipwrights, 1843
On designs by School of Naval Architecture, 1843
On designs by private builders, laid down in 1831,
one—in 1843, one ... ...

... 2

Total
Brigantines, on designs by Sir W. Symonds, laid
down since 1835 ... ... ...
On designs by Sir R. Seppings, laid down in 1829

Total .. •••
Packets, on designs by Sir W. Symonds, laid down
since 1832, and launched ...
The following ships were building, or in progress :
Ships of the Line, on Sir W. Symonds's models ... 19
On French model of Sane 1
By Mr. Lang ... ... 1
By School of Naval Architecture ... ... 1
By the late Admiral Hayes ... 1

... 9

... ... 23
... 10
... ... 1
1
2
1

Total... ...
Frigates, on Sir VV. Symonds's models
Mr. Fincham
Mr. White (private builder), Deptford ...
Mr. Blake (late master shipwright), Portsmouth ...
Mr. Lang, jun., Woolwich •••

Total...
Corvettes, on Sir W. Symonds's model ...
Brigs, on Sir W. Symonds's model ... •-•
Brigantines, on Sir W. Symonds's model ... 1
The steam navy was not included. The charge was, that
failures in building ships had taken place to an enormous
extent. Scarcely one ship had been laid down by Sir W.
Symonds which had turned out other than a failure.
He might instance that great ship, the Vernon, on which
his character in a manner depended. He recollected
that in that House Captain Rous, in speaking of these
ships, referred to the Pique and the Vernon
as bad sea-boats, shipping so much water,
that there was danger on the main deck.—(Bear.)
With regard to the Vernon, he should be prepared to
prove, that in her first voyage she pitched so much as to
nearly destroy her whole bulwarks, besides shipping se-
veral seas. The vessel, in point of fact, was a copy of
an old French ship, which had years before been tried
and found unsuccessful. lie should be prepared also to
prove that the vessels of the Vernon class, built by
Captain Symonds and his assistants, were copies of
former discarded models; and that CaptainlSymonds, and
the others connected with him, displaced men in the pub-
lic service who, in experience and ability, were immea-
surably their superiors. The East India Company's
vessels were built according to the old principles of
naval architecture, and they had efficiently performed the
duties they were built for; while all, or at least the ma-
jority of Captain Symonds's vessels had always to undergo
expensive alterations before they were at all fit for ser-
vice. In fact, a ship built by Sir W. Symonds always re-
quired to have her bow lengthened, her rudder en-
larged, and her masts altered, and yet the Admiralty
still allowed that gentleman's system to re-
main in operation, against the remonstrances of many
eminent persons connected with the navy. Many per-
sons had been found to praise the Vanguard, and no doubt
when she went out as a mere yacht she succeeded very
well, but when she was sent out upon active service she
pitched and tossed so much that she was completely
knocked up, and when taken into dock at Davenport it
was found that in two instances she bad split her cop-
pers, while her oakum had so worked out that she had
to be recaulked. The consequence of this abominable
system prevailing in her Majesty's dockyards had in-
volved the country in enormous expences. From the re-
turns he held in his hand he found that the Queen had
cost 127,0001. and the Vanguard 111,0001. In like man-
ner the public money had been squandered on the Prince
Albert and the Gascoigne, vessels of a lower class than
those he had already mentioned, and he put it to the
House, whether it was right that this state of things
should continue. Was it creditable to the country ? He
apprehended not, for he would undertake to prove
that in no community iu the world was there
so much money wasted in building, or, rather,
in altering misbuilt ships as in England. There
was the Star again. She, too, was built at Wool-
wich, upon Sir W. Symonds' system, but in her first
voyage to sea her decks were washed away, many of the
gallant men who manned her were lost, and she had to
be taken into dock again, and almost entirely rebuilt.
Now was it right that a naval surveyor, who was so
much incapacitated for his:office as Sir Wm. Symonds,
should be permitted longer to squander the public money
in *his way. He thought he had already stated sufficient
to induce the House to grant this enquiry; but, if the
House wished, he could still go on enumerating instances
where the public money had been thrown away with impu-
nity by the naval architecture patronised by the Admiralty.
He thought that the public ought to know the whole
particulars connected with the state of things. Several
vessels had also been condemned and sold out. There
was the Scarborough, 74 guns, built by Sir W. Symonds;
it had only been out a few months when it was sold for
6,0001., though it was worth 40,0001. There were also
the Thames, the Liffey, and the Redoubtable, the whole
of which were either sold or condemned without having
seen scarcely any service ; some of them, indeed, not
having been taken even off the stocks. There were
also other portions of the service to which he must call
the attention of the House. He thought it important to
know whether the Surveyer of the Admiralty properly
performed his duty, or whether the Board of Admiralty
saw that those duties were properly performed. It was
au instruction to the Surveyor of the Admiralty to re-
port once a year upon the condition of all her Majesty's
ships in the navy, but for a number of years past no
such return had been made by Sir W. Symonds.
Mr. WARD—returns have been made.

n:nted their opinion that she was not perfect. S) of the
respecti which a satisfactory repert had hear
r ceived :since her arrival at Lisbon. His Hon. Friend

towards her stern ; and when she was launched she
sank her head into the water with her stern up like
a duck diving.—(A laugh.) She would nut answer
her helm. end d bey_; a!tesed senie
isained an i a .1'
lieved that she had cost. 100,000/. That was the last
eat of Sir W. Symonds. Whether the Admiralty had
examined the line, or had taken any opinion upon it, he
could not tell ; but there seemed to be a kind of com-
pact between the Admiralty and the surveyor. Such a
state of things was a discredit to any country. But he
had not yet done. The Lizard, 150 horse power, a
packet, iron steamer, built by Sir William Symonds,
commissioned at Woolwich in 1842 by Lieutenant Mac-
donald, was nearly sinking in the basin from the weight
of her stores ; and all her stores, officers, crew, guns, ex.,
were turned over to the Spitfire of the same size, but
constructed by Mr. 0. W. Lang, jun., and now in the
Mediterranean. The Spitfire tookl them all with heavier
guns and double the quantity of coals, besides many other
additions. The Spitfire's engines are old and very
heavy, compared with the newer make in the Lizard.
There were many similar instances of failure, also of
falsification in that return. The Lizard required to be
altered, and lighter guns and fewer stores than were
originally intended tor her. But he would now turn to
the official report of Captain Lushington of the Retri-
bution, of her putting back into Plymouth after the gale
(on the 6th or 7th of June, 1846), when she washed her
shot out of the racks about the neck; and his and Cap-
tair. Ramsay's reports of his last trial with the Terrible
(about the 2d or 3d of July, 1846,) would show the com-
plete defeat of the Retribution. He believed that the
Terrible had turned out a very good ship ' • and that
whether under sail or in any kind of duty she had con-
ducted herself well. Both Captain Ramsay and Sir W.
Parker had reported well of her. He had another list
of vessels that had been taken down and destroyed, but
he was really ashamed to trouble the House with it.
He thought he had stated enough to show
that in order to stop the abuse of spending
money and materials the whole system should
be placed under some proper control. Ho was told
there was a committee of reference, but that committee
was not in his opinion properly qualified; they had not
had a proper education; whilst it should be remembered
that a former Admiralty had shown their wisdom and
authority by appointing a committee of master ship-
wrights, and the said committee by their report entirely
condemned the line of Sir W. Symonds' ships. The next
point he came to was that of expense. By a return
which was moved for by the Hon. and Gallant Officer,
the Member for Maryleboae, he found that the Queen
cost 127,0001., and the Trafalgar 114,0001., but he be-
lieved the valuation was made in the time of war, when
the whole charge was at war prices. The next ship, the
Albion, which was to be the example and pattern of all
others, up to the Ist of March, 1846, had cost 104,048/.
The Rodney cost 145,0001. It was originally a better ship
than the Albion, but 17,000/. had been expended upon her
in alterations, and she had been spoiled. The Vanguard
cost 111,000/.; the Penelope 101,0001. Those were large
sums of money, but it was not so much the money as
the system he complained of. He really thought it
was high time that " Symonds the Destroyer"
should be prevented from wasting the public money in
this manner, and a Committee of Inquiry ought to be
instituted. It might be said that a committee of ship-
wrights was now sitting as a committee of reference,
but he contended that they were not competent to the
task which he thought ought to be performed. He did
think the state of things which he had described was a
reproach, after the report made on the state of the navy
so far back as 1806. After the example set them by
France, and after the extension of education, he did
think that they should have had proper ships con-
structed, and fully equal to those of any other country ;
but nothing of the kind had occurred, and the details
which he had laid before the House showed that they
had entrusted the navy to quacks—(Cheers)-- to persons
without the requisite knowledge or education for the
proper performance of the tasks they were entrusted
with. Looking at the state of the navy during the last
fifteen years, and the immense interests involved, he did
think that the time had come when an inquiry should
take place, in order that the exact condition of the navy
might be shown, and suggestions made for placing it on
a different footing, one worthy of this country, in which
young men might acquire the requisite knowledge for
the important offices they were destined to fill ; but the
existing schools did not afford sufficient information to
all. They had had discussion after discussion with
respect to the capabilities of particular ships, and it was
but due to the public to make an inquiry, in order that
they might be informed whether the statements which
bad been made public from time to time were true or un-
true. On a question of education, and on a question of
expense, he considered it to be their duty to make an
inquiry, If it were granted, he should be prepared io
show that both time and materials had been wasted, and
that, considering everything, it was a wonder they stood
as well as they did.
Lord INGESTRE was glad that the subject had been
brought forward as a distinct motion, and not incident-
ally on the supply nights, when but a few professional
gentlemen were present. The construction of the mari-
time deficiences of this country was a subject deserving of
the most serious consideration of every Member
of that House, for it was not fair, not
consistent with the high character of this
country, that our gallant seamen should be
called upon to perform their duties in badly constructed
ships.—(Hear.) He wished to return his sincere grati-
tude to the Hon. Gentleman who had brought forward
the subject in its present shape. He had particularly to
complain of the equipment of the navy, and he considered
that the person employed as the navy surveyor should
be ascertained to be a person fit for the duties he would
have to discharge, before he was appointed; but one per-
son was not capable of discharging the duties which came
within the province of that office.—(Hear.) No doubt
great and useless expenses had been incurred; as he found
that, in 1-835, the cost of sailing ships was 1,356,000/.,
and that almost a similar sum had been expended in the
construction o 1 steamers during the same year. Conti-
nual fluctuations in the mode of constructing vessels oc-
curred, showing that the science which required such
continual change, must be exceedingly defective. An
example of faulty construction was to be found in the
Vernon, to which their attention had been frequently
derected, he had been favoured with a letter respecting
the Albion, from an officer, whom he would have been
glad to have seen in more active service, viz. Capt. Ryder
Burton. He stated that that ship was originally intended to
carry 68-pounders, but as she sank so much on being
launched, a lighter calibre of 32-pounders had to be
substituted, as the stores and other heavy materials
were below the centre of gravity, and that if she had
remained as originally intended she would have rolled
over, and that even in her present condition she would
be exposed to great danger during a squall in the Bay of
Biscay. Yet she was intended as a model for other
ships.—(Hear, hear.) This letter (continued the Noble
Lord) stated, in a few words, the whole question ; for
the great complaint against the surveyor was, that all
the ships built by him had this fault. They all knew
the great injustice done to our officers and men during
the late American war, owing to their being sent out in
small and insignificant ships—(Hear)--but he hoped
this would never occur again, and that proper ships fitted
for service would be invariably used.--(Hear, hear.)
The Noble Lord then read a list of several trials that
had been made at various times with the model ships.
in which he alleged the experiments had been attended
with the most unsatisfactory results. He dill not wish to
fatigue the House after the details which had been given
by the Hon. Member for Montrose, still he must
say that there was too much disposition amongst those
in power to put down any attempt made to interfere
with their mode of transacting business. Every one
who endeavoured to make improvements in the navy,
especially in the building of ships, had been met with
the most pettifogging obstruction, and every obstacle
put in their way. lie denied that it was true, as as-
serted, that every improvement recently made, in the
contruction of ships, had been plagiarised from Sir W.
Symons. Any one, who would make an impartial in-
quiry into the matter, would find that this was not the
fact. Neither the country nor the House would remain
satisfied with the present state of naval architecture in
this country, and they would have ero long to establish
a school for this purpose. His astonishment was, that
it should have ever been abolished, seeing how impor-
tant it was to the interests of the country. The case
of the Albion alone, which hail been cited, was suffi-
cient to warrant a committee of inquiry, without any
other reasons being adduced. This ship had been ad
mitted to be a complete failure. If not in these preci.>e
terms, at least in words to the same effect, this was
admitted. The Noble Lord next complained of the
returns which had been laid on the table of
the Admiralty, and considered that they did
not give a fair representation of the state of the navy.
Ile would not detain the liou=e longer, and would e,m-
elude by expressing a hope that an inquiry would be
made into the whole subject, and that a school of some
kind would be established for the teaching of naval
architecture, that thereby the vessels of this eouniry
would be able to compete in future with any of the
other nations of the earth.
Mr. WARD said it was not his intention to pursue
his Hon. Friend through the Bill of indictment he bad
preferred against the Ministries which had been in office
fur the last fifteen years; but having hefted from the
Noble Lord who had sat down that they stood in the
way of the efficiency of the navy of England, he con-
fessed that he could not see how that efficiency could be
promoted by the inquiry moved for by the lion. Member.
Errors such as the Hon. Member described might have
taken place, but had he not now a security against their
recurrence ? Some of the most eminent members of the
late School of Naval Architecture—Mr. Reed, Mr. In-
man, Mr. Bennett, and Mr. Fincham—were now mem-
bers of the committee of instruction, to whom, and to
the Surveyor of the Navy, all plans for the building of
new ships were referred by the Admiralty. Could any
better system be devised, combining a responsibility to
that House, than that one which the Government lied
determined to adopt ? The Gallant Commodore (Sir C.
Napier) had suggested the appointment of some inter-
mediate person or persons, but what would that be but
the Surveyor of the Navy in another shape ?—(Hi )
y
The best responsibility was obtained by having in 'hthr:tt
House those who were at the head of
affairs, and who
might be accused, either justly or unjustly, as, the caSt
el mi
teghnt be,de for whatever had been done by their suppr-
in or by their direction. Hmout;e
which - able Friend could have no e btte
r securityhis
than
system now established, andNo
ie
aLordee
now at the head of the Admiralty intended dto most strictly in all his future proceedings. He
entirely doubted the possihilit of 1-
miralty in this country devisi)ng aenj cta'airedlelofforAt(he
building of all future ships. It- wasar desirable,m no doubt,
to have as touch science as possible in shipbuilding; but
in the construction of ships of war there were so ma ly
different requirements to be sought which were not con-
fined to one point, but combining many and opposite
qualifications, that the perfect model which they wanted
was still to be sought. The Thetis had been mentioned,
but the gentlemen who bad constructed her bad inti-

- - ( • .(I( it esfeee,,, . , :, i' . , „e.: es . e•e it,a
Queen and the Albien, and had spelten of the latter ship
as a failure. But Sir W. Parker, in writing to Lotd
Auckland, said—
" I think well of the Albion; she does not sail so fast
as the Vanguard, the Superb, or the Canopus, and she is
said to be very uneasy; but the manner in which she
stands up under canvass is astonishing. I wish that
Captain Loekyer had been allowed months ago to ballast
and trim her according to his own ideas, for he is ' every
inch a sailor, and would have endeavoured to do justice
to her. I agree with him, that the ship is fully equal to
carry the long 68 pounders throughout on the lower
deck, and I confess that I should like to see it tried.
The Queen's sailing has generally been superior to the
Albion's. I have heard no complaint of her being un-
easy. In short, I consider her by far the finest ship of
her class that has ever been built; and, in a general
chase, she would probably be found amongst the best of
the two-deckers.'
Where were the House to go for authorities if they were
not to receive as such the reports of officers of such
high practical knowledge and experience as Sir
W. Parker?—(Hear.) The truth was, they had not yet
arrived at the high standard, or anything like it, which
the Hon. Member appeared to think possible. He ad..
mitted the necessity of bringing the best naval science
possible to bear upon the subject, but he wished those
who were in favour of re-establishing the Naval School
of Architecture held the moderate expectations enter-
tained by the members of that body. In the first re-
port of Messrs. Read, Chatfield, and Creuze, in 1843,
they said:—
" It will be our endeavour to remove this misappre-
hension. In making this attempt we do not arrogate to
ourselves any new discovery; we merely assert that
there are no insuperable obstacles opposed to sure and
progressive improvement; that the course of proceeding
in other branches of knowledge is applicable to this; and
that inductive reasoning, based on mathematical investi-
gations, may be applied with eminent advantage to naval
architecture, as it has been to other branches of natural
philosophy."
Did the report say that the writers had the
power of making the most perfect model? No such
thing. Perhaps these gentlemen had not had fair play.
—(Hear.) He hoped there would be a great improve-
ment in naval architecture, but that improvement was
still to come. The evidence adduced by the Hon. Mem-
ber in support of his motion was of the loosest character,
and the House had shown its sense of it. If, as the Hon.
Member stated, 22,000,0001. of money had been wasted
and thrown into the sea, and yet that, after all this ex-
penditure, they had not a ship that was capable of meet-
ing a French or American vessel, the motion would
have brought down every Member of that House to ex-
press his reprobation and indignation. With respect
to the question of re-opening the school of naval archi-
tecture, he confessed that the consideration of this
question was attended with a great deal of difficulty ;
but it was determined that that the boys in the docks,
who exhibited the higher abilities, which they wished to
encourage, would be transferred to a school at Ports-
mouth, and there receive an education fitted for the
position they were destined to fill, and then be returned
to their places in the docks, and made officers, as they
would be found to deserve advancement in the service.
Much obloquy had been thrown upon Sir W. Symonds.
He believed that officer to be as much under-rats d at the
' present moment, as he was over-rated in the earlier part
o' his career. The House might rely upon it that the
Government would endeavour to bring as much science
as possible to bear upon the construction of the navy.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that he should have
left the vindication of naval affairs to the lion. Gentle-
man who had just spoken, if it had not been for certain
observations contained in the speech of the Hon. Mem-
ber who brought forward the motion. 'Tne Hon. Mem-
ber stated that he had refreshed his memory this morn-
ing by a reference to what had taken place some years
ago. He ( -ir J. Graham) had not the same opportunity
that the Hon. Member had ; he had not looked at a
single document, or prepared himself in any way for that
evening's discussion. The lion. Member would perhaps
permit him to say that his reference to that period had
made him (Sir J. Graham) melancholy. The Hon.
Nfember was poetical upon the subject ; he had talked
(4' the hand of the aestrover, and aiteeearets he had eta-
t ured to affirm that which, on inork• matere ref', ction, he
(Sir J. Graham) thought he would regret ; he had ven-
tured to state Mr. Hawkes in 1835 had fabricated a report
~r- the purpose of misleading the House and the public.
That officer had died some years ago, with a reputation
as pure and unsullied as any gentleman of whom that
House could boast, and until that moment, not a whisper
had been whispered against his name or honour. There
were some great principles in reference to this subject,
to which he had no difficulty in assenting. He entirely
agreed with his Hon. Friend, that this subjact was well
deserving of the consideration of the British Parliament.
It was the boast of this country that she possessed the
greatest and most successful seamen of the world, and it
ought, therefore, to be the desire of the country to pro-
vide the best vessels for them to sail in, which skill and
experience could produce. He would not hesitate at
once to admit that he was responsible for the appoint-
ment of Sir William Symonds to the situation
of Surveyor to the Navy. He made that appointment
deliberately, after consulting the best authorities up ee the
subject. The Honourable Gentleman who had intro-
duced this motion said that he (Sir J. Graham) had
once, declared, that science was not the only quality
necessary to constitute surveyor of the navy; but the
Hon. Gentleman had unintentionally misrepresented
him, for what he did say was abstract science alone was
not a qualification for the selection of a naval surveyor.
It was impossible in making the selection of such an
officer to have a due regard to naval experience as well
as science. Now, whatever might be the scientific
merits of Sir W. Symonds, no one would deny that he
had had considerable naval experience. Sir W. Symonds
had been one of the most successful naval officers of the
country; while, withreference to ship-building, he con-
tended there was no doubt whatever that the Gallant
Gentleman had paid a good deal of attention to the con-
struction of ships. Indeed, he had reason to believe
that the gallant officer's knowledge of ship-building
was considerable, and he possessed amply sufficient
scientific information and experience to render him
worthy of the office to which he bad been appointed.
Before he proceeded further to discuss the merits or de-
merits of Sir W. Symonds, there was one observation
which fell from the Hon. Member opposite to which he
(Sir James Graham) wished to refer. The Hon. Gen-
denim observed that they ought to exercise the greatest
caution in believing what they heard. With the excep-
tion of matters of religion, he did not think so much
difference of opinion existed as upon the merits or de-
merits of Sir W. Symoi di's ship-building. Having
made these few prelimieary observations, he wished now
to glance at one or two of the other topics alluded to by
the Hon. Gentleman opposite. The lion. Gentleman
seemed to think that it was an act of injustice towards
the school of naval architecture to have abolished
that establishment. Now, at the time it was
abolished there was no doubt whatever that it
involved a very large outlay of the public
money, and as the benefits arising from the
existence of the establishment will not be sufficient to
justify its continuance, it was abolished accordingly.
The pupils, however, did not suffer from its abolition,
for most of them were subsequently appointed to most
lucrative offices in the various dockyarda of the country.
Now, with reference to the merits of Sir Wiltiani Sy-
monds, the Hon. Gentleman had raid that in this coun-
try the improvement of ship •building had not been pro-
gressive. Now he (Sir James Graham) admitted that at
the time of the war some of the best ships England pos-
sessed had been b :ilt in France. Another vessel
VMS also built about , he same ti ne by (FI et V. Symonds,
called the Vanguard, which the rate Sr, Charles Paget
reported upon a trial of her to be an equally good vessel.
On the whole, therefore, he could not look upon Sir W.
Symons as a men being incompetent for the situation
he:held. Sr William Synond s had been contmucd
iii his office by several successive Governments and
of course they must share with him the responsibii,ty of
the Gallant Officer's appointment. Rep rts in favour of
his ships had been made by Admiral Stopfor I, Admiral
Hyde Parker, Admiral Byng, and teeny other distin-
euished officers in the navy ; and on the whole, he
thought S r William Symands liau been hit hly success-
ful in his capacity of Surveyor of the Navy. With
regard to the expetiaes which had been incurred under
the Gallant Officer's direct en, in altering and improving
vessels, he confessed he could not fez:, e with the Hon.
Gentleman opposite, that it was money throe r. away.
He b--licved th t the money which had been so expended
would tend greatly to 'he public advantage, while it must
be clear that money could not be more legltarnately spent
than in a time of peace testing the various
modes of building ships of war, and correcting
the defects which experience had demonstrated.
The Inconstant was built by an admirable naval officer,
a man of science t , a considerable extent. The Eur-
ydice, again, was built by a distinguished naval officer,
not so much noted for his attainments in science as for
naval abilities. Tho Thetis was an improved edition of
Sir W. Sy monds's style of ship-building, with the ad-
mitted faults corrected. The Ben. Member for Montrose
had spoken of the great expense incurred in the altera-
tions of the Rodney; but she was trot built by Sir W.
Symonds, nor on the lines or any ~f his ships. Some-
thing ;had been said of Dr. Inman's certificate in the
naval schools; he tholight, however, that he had been a
very useful person in the iiil;z..ti.',n of youth, but as a
ship builder he was decidedly UUStweessiul; clearly
showing that science alone was not sufficient to qualify a
-
person for the duties of a ship-builder. He
warned the
present Beard of Admiralty not ti trust too much to the
newly constructed' board of construction;" if they did
so, there would be no doubt that that board
would soon become like the Navy Board, which,
when ha was connected with the Admiralty,
he, by the consent of Parliament, abolished. The
present constitution of the Board of Admiralty was
most admirable; and if the suggestions of that Board
were fully and fairly attended to, they would be amply
sufficient, and he should regret that there should exist
any other board to interfere with their decisions. He
advised the Government not to interfere with these de-
cisions ; et them remove Sir W. Symonds if he did not
give satisfaction, and appoint another surveyor, or even
two, but he would most certainly advise them not to con-
stitute any opposing navy board. He did not see any
benefit which would be likely to result from the appoint-
ment of the Committee or a Commission, and he should
most certainly oppose the motion of the Hon. Member
for Montrose.—(Cheers.)
Capt. BERKELEY could assure the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet opposite, that his suggestions with respect to the
Committee of Construction should not bo lost sight of.
That Committee was only consulted by the Board of
Admiralty when any new system of construction was
submitted to them. With r.epect, to Sir W. Symonds,
he begged to call the attention ur the House to the early
services rendered by that gallant officer to lie country;
first of all, in the abolitiou of the 10-gun brigs.

Mr. HUME—WeII, let him have the inquiry as asked
for, and he would soon see whether such report had, or
had not been made. Now, orders were given not to pro-
ceed with the building of the Aboukir and Exmouth, in
consequence of their having been defective. Those ves-
sels were laid down on the lines of the Albion, which
rolled so much that it was quite a wonder how any men
or guns could keep on the deck of the vessel. That ves-
sel, when tried,in the experimental squadron, rolled at an
angle of 45 deg. When the result of the sailing qualities
of this vessel was known, orders were given not to build
these vessels upon the same lines, and yet upon several
occasions the works had continued with varied progress.
He came now to the steamers. lie found that when
Sir W. Symonds started he bad, by Admiralty order,
the drawing of the following steam-vessels as a guide
fur his own construction, viz.:—The Comet, Lightning,
Meteor, Pluto, Flamer, Firebrand, Firefly, Spitfire anal Medea, from which his first production (assisted by' Mr.
Edye) was the Gulnare, increased in breadth from the
Cornet. His first vessel, the Gulnare, failed—too deep
and very slow; her power was then increased to obtain
speed, many alterations made in her fittings, &c., and to
cover Gleaner;
these mistakes her name changed to but
still, being too deep was sent to Chatham, cut into two
parts, and lengthened; still a failure, very slow and very
deep—could not carry her coals and stores. This was
a bad beginning, and a bad specimen of steam construc-
tion. The Blazer and Tartarus were the next two
built--both failed. Their engines and boilers were
taken out and new ones made of increased power—these
vessels were laid up ten months, during the time the
alterations were going on. Hermes, the next built,
rolled and pitched to such a degree that she was also
sent to Chatham in May, 1840, to be cut in two parts
and lengthened two feet at the keel and twenty feet on
deck. She had siace had an upright stem and addi-
Itional power, with other alterations. Volcano, a sister
vessel, had the same propensities of rolling, &c. Sbe
plunged her bowsprit into the sea, and lost
her jibboom and jib in the ocean, as she could not
bring them up again. Gorgon, built at Pem-
broke— intended to carry guns, but found to
be so deep in the water the ports were obliged to be
caulked in, copper on the bottom raised, and her power
increased. The Cyclops, a sister vessel, in consequence
of the Gorgon failing, was lengthened to remedy the
evil, but could not carry the guns intended, being still
too deep in the water. After these and other repeated
errors, he has increased the length of his steam-vessels
and altered their forms. The Devastation, and that
class of steamers, have been brought up to the same
proportion of length as the Medea, and their figure
made to assimilate more to that vessel. He now came
to the royal yacht. -He was one of those who, when
Sir
Robert Peel made the proposal for building this yacht,
was of opinion that there were so many yachts that there
was no occasion for any more ; but they were assured by
the Government that it would be made at very little
additional expense, and that in case of war, it might
be converted into a war steamer it necessary. But what
was the result ? This was the last that was built atter
all their experience. A very dull man might become
a shipwright in fifteen years ; but still there sras dis-
played about this vessel a want of scientific knowledge
—a want of knowing what the effect of displace-
ment, fore and aft, in relation to the ship's figure was,
that had been the cause of all the Surveyor's failures.'
This royal yacht was so imperfectly constructed
that she was obliged to carry 120 tons of baba:A