The Sun.
London, England, 1840-05-09 00:00:00

Mr. HUME said the men should have been attached
to the metropolitan police.—(Hear, hear.) Why (said
the Hon. Member) here is George Leadbittcr, he entered
the force at the age of twenty-eight, he has been fifteen
years in the force, and he is pensioned off at forty-two.
Now, I am older than that, yet does my Hon. Friend the
Secretary f,,r the Treasury think that I am old enough to
to be pensioned off.—(Laughter.) Why I consider I am
as fit for duty now as I was forty years ago.—( Loud
laugi ter.) I admit that it is highly important to have the
most experienced officers, for it is only experience in the
finding of criminals which can be efficient in their detec-
tion, and, on that very ground, these men should have been
enrolled in the police.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. FOX MAULE said there had not tren any fresh
men taken into o.c police force on account of the loss
of tho:e two.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL was very much inclined to
concur with what had been said by the Hon. Member for
Kilkenny. He thought men who were only forty or
forty -three years of age, ought not to be superannuated.
Mr. WILLIAMS hoped that his Hon. Friend would
persevere in opposing the item.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER con-
curred in the opinion that those two men ought not to remain
any longer superannuated, and he would take care that on
the first opportunity that presented itself they were re-
employed.
Colonel SIBTHORP perceived that the chief clerk
of the War-office had been superannuated after four years
and a half service, and had b,ea removed not in conse-
quence of illness, or of oft age, hut in consequence of
the appointment of' an additional Under-Secretary of State.
He had no doubt the clerk was the better man of the two,
and he thought it moat di•grsccful for a Government that
prof( s;ed to he economical, to remove and superannuate a
laborious aed useful man for a man who had perhaps spent
half his life in a ball-room.—(Laughter.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
at the present time it was impossible to give any party
who had ierved F o short a time A retired allowance.

Mr. S. O'BRIEN said he was glad to hear from the
Chancellor of the Esehequer that when the office was abo-
-I.shed, the person who held it should be preferred to some
other office, provided he 'core sufficiently qualified, instead
of being Fuperannuatcd.

_ .
Mr. HUME said he objected on principle. They had
lately added 300 or 400 rcen to the Police for total ser-
vice, and who would have been fitter than these indi-
viduals for Superintendents? The Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer admitted it was wrong ; why, then, did he sanc-
tion it? When this Report was brought up he would vote
against it, and also against another i!cm—that of the Se-
nior Clerk ( Sir Frederick I3yng), aged 55. lie wanted
to know why a pension of 8271. was given to this
indi-
vidual, and whether, if it was because he was unfit fur
duty, there were medical certificates to that effect ?
Lord PALMERSTON said that Sir F. Byng bad
been superannuated on a medical certificate.
Mr. HUME wished to know in what way he could ob-
ject to take the sense of the House upon particular items,
for there were many others fully as strong as this.
Mr. BE R.NAL did not recollect any case having oc-
curred which resembled this at all. The usual course had
been to put a larger reduction proposed before a smaller
one.

Mr. HUIIE said he wished to take the sense of the
House upon each item separately.
Mr. BE gNAL did not soc how that purpose could be
effected.

Sir J. GRAHAM thought it could be managed thus—
that th• Hon. Member should first state the amount of all
his objected-to items, and take the sense of the House
upon the vote less by that amount, and then upon a vote
with a less reduction, and so on.
Mr. GOULBURN doubted if it would be regular.
Mr. BERNAL recollected no such course ever having
been adopted before.
The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER said
the Hon. Member, by withdrawing the allowance of these
men, would not do anything but dep-ive them of that
allowance, and would not at all advance his object, which
was to secure them re-employment in the Force, in case
they wore fit for service.

Mr. HUME wished, first, the vote to be proposed,
13,077/., instead of the amount first proposed (which we
misstated first at 9,0001., instead of 90,0001.) He wished
to separate the various departments, and would take the
sense of the House first upon the Treasury Department,
and would then propose for the other departments.
Mr. BF,RNAL said it would be regular to propose a
reduction, but not with a limitation as to object.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUME persisted in his proposition.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said he apprehended the real
übject was to postpone the votes for Leadhitter and Capes.
—( Hear, from Mr. Hume.) Undoubtedly it would be
unfair to deprive these men of their allowance, with no
further information,—( ILar.)
Mr. HUME said all lie wished was to check the pre-
3ent arbitrary and improper system of superannuating.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sug-
gested that the Hon. Gentleman should take the objection
on the Report.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. WILLIAMS said that the retiring allowances for
the Treasury were enormous.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
they were high, because the salaries were larger.
Mr. R. GORDON said these individuals had been paid
from the Consolidated Fund in Ireland, under the head of
Secret Service. An alteration had taken place in this
fund, and it was deemed more adviseable to propose their
pensions in this estimate.
Mr. 1-11.3:11E said that Sir Adam Fcrgusson had a pen-
sion of 1501. a-year as Deputy Keeper of the Regalia in
Scotland, for the abolition of his office. Now his office
was a sinecure, and he thought he ought to have been con-
tent with having received 3001. a-year for doing nothing,
without coming for compensation.
Mr. FOX MAULE said that before the regalia of
Scotland were thrown open to the inspection of the public,
Sir Adam Fcrgusson received 3001. a-year for fees; his
office was not a sinecure, as he was responsible for the se-
eurity of the Regalia ; and he thought it was hardly fair
to dismiss an old servant, who had for years been the as-
sociate of that ornament to Scotland, Sir Walter Scott,
without Ending him some provision.
The vote of 80,000/. on account was then agreed to.

A vote of 8,000/. was then proposed for allowances to
French emigrants, and Ameriezn loyalists, and others.
Mr. HUME wished to ask if it was possible that not one
single person of them had died since la.t year.
Mr. R. GORDON said that some of the American
!or.lists had died, es was shown in the account. The
vote had been reduced to 10,000/. within the last three
years, and no new names had been put or.
Mr. HUME was rather suspicious, because persons to
whom pensions had been granted on the revocation of the
Edict of Nantes, had continued on the pension list 120
years, and had not been removed until he had objected to
them.

The vote was then agreed to.
A sum of 1,850/. was then voted for the National Vaccine
Establishment.

A vote of 3,0001. having bees proposed for the Refuge
for the Destitute,
Mr. HUME asked the number of inmates in that esta.
blishment, and objected to the expense of granting out-
fits for ernii,rants from that establishment.

Mr. R. CORDON said that a considerable portion of
the expenses was defrayed by private individuals, and he
believed the institution was well managed.
Mr. C. LUSH INGTON dJendfid the institution from
the attack of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, and con-
tended that the expenses of outfit for emigration were per-
fectly justifiable, and that it was better to send these per-
sons abroad than to turn them loose on society, as was
done wilt prisoners dismissed from the Penitentiary.
Mr. HU ME said that it was exceedingly hard on the
virtuous and well-conducted that, while money was voted
to assist the emancipation of those tainted with crime, the
virtuous were left without assistance.

The vote was then agreed to.
A vote of 3.3901. was then proposed for the care of
Criminll Lunatics in Bethlehem Hospital.
Lord G. SOMERSET suggested the propriety of
having acme general establishment for the reception of all
criminal lunatics, Bethlehem Hospital being insufficient
for the purocm.
Mr. FOX M AUL E sa'd that criminal lunatics in Beth-
lehem were kept diminct from the general body of that es-
tablishment. Nothing emu be in better order than that
hospital was. With regard io the general question of the
care of criminal lunatics, it was of too extensive a nature to
be en cn-cii pin at present.
Mr. IIUME thought there were no criminal lunatics
except in Bethlehem. If there wore others elsewhere, ho
agreed with the Noble Lord that there ought to be some
general establishment for the reception of criminal lunatics.
After a short conversation, in which Mr. R. Gordon,
Mr. Prothoroe, Mr. Fox Malik, and Lord Granville So-
merset took a part, the rote was agreed to.
4,1001. was voted for the usual allowance to Protestant
Dissenting ministers in England, after a few words from
Mr. Hume.

39,900/. was voted to dc fray the charge of her Majesty's
foreign and other secret service for the year Mil.
222,529/. was also voted for the expenses of printing
and stationery for the several departments of the Govern-
ment in England, Sdotland Ireland, and the Colonies, and
also for the two Houses of Parliament.
A sum of 35,0001. was then proposed for the la
charges during the ensuing year.
Mr. HUME thought the House ought to have a de-
taitcd of the expenses incurred in the trials in
Monmouthshire. Thu increase on this estimate was
snormons.

Agrced to.
The Emu of 73,0751. was then voted for defraying the
barges of the convict establishment at Bermuda.
The sum of 32,500/. was also voted for the maintenance
of convicts at New South \Vales and Van Diemen's Land.
A vote of 35,000/. was then proposed for the support of
captured negroes and liberated Africans, and after an ex-
planation from Mr. GORDON, who was inaudible in the
gallery, agreed to.
The sum of 10,000/, wss thrn proposed for the bind-
ing, preparing, cleaning, and indexing the public records,
and paying the salaries of the parties engaged therein,
but on the suggestion of Mr. Protheroe, it was postponed.
5,4181. was then proposed for defraying the expenses of
the University of London.

vote.
and 300/. a
----
eb et
he too
examiners much,o ,
Mr. GOUL BURN objected to this
that some of the examiners received
tr'encietiv.wedasenrely-
actonccaemivberclidtgoHe observed
cyoelalre'r whichted that ahte
20/. a year. and upwards of 260 your, b men received de-
grees every year.
Mr. LABOUCHF,RE said the Universityr
0, London
Was placed in very different circumstances from the n
eient Universities of Oxford and Cambridge. The exa.a"
miners there, he believed, were tutors of colleges, possess-
ing fellowships, and receivieg considerable emoluments
from other sources.—{hear, hear.)
Mr. GOULBURN replied, that at Cambridge they
had always considered it an erroneous principle to appoint
the tutors as examiners, because they would naturally have
a bias towards these whom they bad instructed, and care
had always been taken that there ties no collusion between
the instructors and the instructed.
Mr. WARBURTON observed, that the pupils exa-
mined at the University comprehended pupils from King's
College, from all the medical establishments in London or