The Sun.
London, England, 1841-08-27 00:00:00

ment, or the supposed merits of ti
felt bound to role agminst tho amend

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I2;;lSiry",

Colonel
umuipdlizi

ii3THOR

L

he ift.

nt VOL! on

and,:the en ty that he on
tti, present question. Ile must -cengtatalate
and the .country that the time had nearly arrived when
-the Right Honourable Baronet, who had sat too long
on the Opposition side of the House, would resume his
seat on the other side as a Minister of the Crown. He
was rejoiced to think that her Majesty's present Minis-
ters had not resigned .voluntarily, as he should now Katie
the pleasure of.i.steingthein drummed out to a tune which
the forms of the House would not alloys him to name.—
(Laughter.) He rejoiced-that he had lived to see that
day, and right glad should he be to see, belbre the Right
lion. Baronet took his seat opposite, those benches cleansed
from their political filth by having them well, washed
with ConservatiVe lime, and regenerated with Conserva-
tive paint, in order that the glandered body that had hither-
to sat there, might not infect those who would hereafter
possess those benches.—(Laughter.) The Whigs, thank
God, after that or to-morrow night, would be no longer
Ministers of the Crown. They had not been satisfied
with the verdict pronounced by the, last House of Com-
mons, and they appealed to the people, and the result
of that appeal would be the placing of his Right Hon.
Friend On the benches on the other side of the House.—
(Hear, hear.) If the present Ministers had had the
'political honesty and decency to have resigned, when
the last House of Common told them that it had no
confidence in them, they would have been saved the
verdict that had been pronounced against them by tho
country. He was happy to see the great reaction which
bad - taken place in Yorkshire and in Westminster.
Oh ! had the Ministers been present at a scene which he
had the happiness to see a few days ago—had they been
to Drury-lane Theatre—(Laughter)—and seen the
assemblage, both male and female—(Loud laughter)—
bad they seen them enthusiastically pronouncing the
deep disgust they felt for them and the hopes which
mutilated them, the delight with which they looked for-
ward to the. sunshine which they expected to burst
upon them in a few days—it would have been a strong and
impressive lesson for them in all future time.
In that most, subtle Speech, which her Majesty's Minis-
ters had so cunningly put into her Majesty's mouth, they
heard much of distress amongst the people, and the dif-
ficulties- of the country ; but his Right Hon. Friend,
the Member for Tamworth, had a mind and a heart
which would enable him to surmount all difficulties.
Who had brought those difficulties on the country ?
Whf. the Government, with their incompetency—their
selfishness and greediness of Commissions; and, he
might say, omissions ; but the day to talk of them
would soon arrive. They had got up the cry of cheap
bread, cheap sugar, and cheap timber ; they were
brought forward merely for the purpose of humbugging
the people ; but he would tell them, though perhaps
they were already aware of it, that old birds were not
to be caught by the Chancellor of the Exchequer's chaff.
—(Laughter.) The proper time had not arrived for the
discussion of these important questions ; but, come when
it would, he predicted that it-would be found that they
would give no relief to the poor. The fact was, the Go-
vernment were bankrupts ; and when they produced
their schedules, where would be the assets to pay their
anxious creditor, the country? He could not sit down
without adverting to what had taken place since the
Conmions of England had given the Government warn-
ing to quit on the 4th of June last.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) How many places had been given away ?-
- how many appointments made ? How much
money lavished in rigging out and in calling home, and
probably a little something to smooth the passage? What
was to be said to the appointment of the late Attorney-
C eneral?—what about his outfit? Good God, was not the
Attorney-General of England properly dressed—
(Laughter)—without an outfit ? Had he not a good coat
or a clean shirt—(Loud laughter)—without putting his
,hand in the public chest ? At a future day he .would
move for some returns which might show more--he
would then see how many days, he might say hours, nay
minutes, he had performed the duties of his office.
Whether he had received any salary or not, he did not
know, but they would see by and by. He considered
it to be one of the most gross and unpardonable jobs
that had ever been perpetrated. There had been two
andtes since then that were rather remarkable. The
Ministers were certainly rewarding their friends. lie
wished to God they were driven out that night, for they
kne'w not how soon another Gazette might appear.—(A
laugh.)—But enough had been done, and sufficient for the
day wis the evil thereof. With those sentiments he
would cordially vote for the amendment, and the sooner
he gave that vote the better, for the effect of it, he felt
certain, would be to give satisfaction to the people at
Jorge, security to the country, and prove a blessing and
Add to the happiness of the country.
Mr. POWELL—The Noble Lord the Member for Li-
veure-----1 had said that the people of England had given a
decided verdict against the Government, but it was to be
borne in mind that the appeal had also been made to the
people of Ireland, and their verdict had been decidedly in
favour of the Ministry. He was an ardent friend of free
trade, but as so many interests, and important ones, had
grown up under the monopoly and protective system,
he wished for only a gradual amelioration of our com-
mercial code. He thought the policy of the Government
founded on justice and wisdom. A fixed low dray on corn
would give a sufficient protection, while at the same time
it would prove a salutary warning to those whose inte-
rests would be affected. lie would warmly support the
Address, wishing, as he did, to relieve the people from un-
evarrantable monopolies and unjust taxes.
Mr. TURNER—The Right Hon, Baronet the Member
for .Tamworth had seid that in Ireland- he would meet
with his utmost difficulties in governing the country.
Now g dinner was given to celebrate the return of the
Members for Kent, at which a Noble Earl (Win-
chilsea) was stated to have been present, and
to have indulged in the use of language that was
unbecoming, and if the Report was true, the Right
lion. Baronet opposite (Sir E. Knatchbull) who Was
present, was answerable fur it. Ile talked of the Roman
eCatholic Clergy as 4‘ Popish factions demagogues,"
headed by O'Connell, and b• led on by the most infu-
riated and bigoted priesthood that had ever cursed
country."—(Hear.) Now, he would ask, was this lan-
guage calculated to make the task of the Right Hon.
Baronet more easy? Or. the contrary, would it not add
to the difficulty. He would now come to the real ques-
eion before the House. With regard to the chief topic
fillet had been discussed in that House, viz., the lan-
gaag;e they had put into the Queen's Speech, he
thought if they had not clone so, they would have be-
trayed the country ; and notwithstanding the silence
of Hon. Members on the other side of the House, those
on his (Mr. Turner's) side, were deterrained that the
question should go fairly before the country.—(Hear.)
Much had been said upon the question of wages, and he
would tell the House what the rate of wages was in
that country in 1760. At that period the labourer
had ss. a-week, and with that sum he was' able to pur-
.ehase 93 quarterreluaves. In 1792 the average of wages
was Os., and with that the labourer was Ale to purchase
15 • Ajuarterns of bread. In 1841 the highest rate. of
wages was 10,7. per week, and with it the poor man was,
able to purchase only JO quarteru loaves. Talk of
money value. Money was only the reprem4;lative of that
which kept up their stamina-4A laugh)—anti it was
tstear that the labouring man in 1792 was better able, to
support his family than at present. The farmers had
been considerably alarmed by the outcry raised by the
landed proprietors of the injury that would be done to
their interest, but he thought that the general good
be taken into account, instead of the interest of
Auy particular class. The interest of the landed proprie-
tors-would certainly be affected by the proposed measure
to the extent of somewhere about 10 per cent. Under
any circumstances, foreign wheat could not be introduced
at less than 60s. a quarter. He contended that 565.
ought to be the standard price, and the. day was not long
,past since the farmers, until they had been differently
redthooled, were in the habit of saying that that would. be
o; fair remunerating price. He would aslc the landed
l'rtprietors, were t hey prepared, on the score
of humanity, and the destitution of the people—
to make any sacrifice. He contended that no Go-
verrunent, however strong.. it might be. could stand, unless
it made some sacrifices. It was the duty of that House
in time to make concessions to the people ; and in his
.vinion they should have brought forward these measures
I:two years ago. lie thought, however, theleum: should
'save begun with a higher duty,
and gradual
Byut they & had
come am
to a low one; he would not say what earn. I
lost that golden opportunity, and the peop,o were in a.
state of utter destitution. lie now came to that pa:divoe
her Majesty's Speech which called upon them to col
the laws which regulated the trade in corn, sO
to Pre-vent the fluctuations which had taken place in its price.
-These statements could not be controverted—they
were
damnim facts, and were established by the returns which
were lately placed in the hands of lion. Members. It
appeared that since the Bill was passed no less than
11,700,000 qrs. of wheat, and 3,700,000 cwt. of flour bad
been imported. Out of that 11.000,000 of quarters the
House and the country would be astonished to find that
5,900,000 qrs. paid a duty of only is., and 2,800,000 qrs.
paid a duty of only 2s. 81, so that 6,700,000 quarters,
being considerably more than half of the entire quan-
tity, paid an average duty of only Is. 10d. What
then had the farmers to be alarmed at in the proposition
Of an Bs. duty. He did not believe the measure would
Owe the country cheap bread.—(Tory cheers.) But ho
would tell them what it would give them, it would .i;ive
theta a regular supply of- bread when they wanted it.—
(Cheers and laughter.) The eleven millions of quarters
of wheat imported produced to the Revenue' 190,0001.
I; Ott ail Bs. duty would have produced 2,480,0001. to the
equer ? Under the one system -the corn would
come in' gradually, while, under the present lavv, it would
not be aduaittecl until bread rose to a famine price. His
last remark would be as to the derangement of the cur-:
rency which was occasioned by the present system. 'He
contended that it not only deranged the currency, but
that it placed in jeopardy the commercial and landed in-
terests of the country. He trusted that those whose duty
it was likely to be to adinitiister the affairs of that great
country, would not shut their eyes to the eras which af-
fected the interest of the manufacturing and working-
classes, and he prayed that they would endeavour, having
umajority in that House, to relieve the poor of that
country from their present sufferings.—(Hear,)
Mr. ESCOTT• expressed hie determination to vote in
.favour of the amendment. Hon. Members on the other
side had, in their addresses, avoided a statement of the
real question which that House had to decide, and of
course they had avoided all arguments in favour of the
amended Address. He thought it very extraordinary
that just at the close of the career of a tottering Admi-
nistration they should bring forward a Budget which,
in the opinion of the majority of that House, went to at-
tack the great vital interests of that country, viz., its
ships, its colonies, its commerce, and its landed interest.
—(Hear, hear.) The Right len. Gentleman the Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade had stated some reasons why
the Budget had been introduced. He had told them that
it was in Consequence of Members coming to the Go-
-ferzament and saying that something of that sort ought
to be done; it was, therefore, the pressure from
within, and not the pressure
40ta without, The potion

however, was not one between cotton and corn ; but he
asked, was the Parliament otEngland to deliberate upon
such questions at all, while- an Administration was in
office in defiance of Parliament, and in defiance of the
'4aw and the Constitution.—(Cheers.) He wished to say
one word with respeAlp the Hon. and Learned Member
for Bath, who stood in a very different position from
the Government, and who, he admitted, was a man of
great ability, having raised himself, by the ;once of hi's
talents, to the representation of a great city. He had
shown an admirable example of independence of mind,
although in support of principles which, if carried into
effect, would' only produce the same consternation, con-
fusion, and defeat, which must follow the establishment
of a Government in their Monarchical Constitution upon
democratical and revolutionary principles.—(Cbeers.)
He had told them that they were all equally wrong, and
that he was right, and not himself alone, but the people
of England were with him. What was this but the old
and often-repeated and exploded fallacy of what was
meant by the people of England. If he admitted that
the Whigs and Tories, and a majority of the electors or
England were against him, did they not form a to-
lerably good portion of the people of England.—(Hear,
hear.) Some of the Hon. and Learned Member's re-
marks on the subject of the Poor-laws had given him
vain. He stated that addresses were made from the
hustings on that subject, in order to influence the votes
of electors. If that were so, the epithets of base and sor-
did men would not bemisplaced in designating the parties
who had so used them. But the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman should consider that his (Mr. Escott's) side
of the House had as much right to speak in favour of
the old as other Honourable Members had to speak
in favour of the New . Poor-law.—(Hear, hear.)
He had listened with attention to the Hon. Member for
Stockport (Mr. Cobden), who spoke on the other side,
and who seemed actuated by no other feeling than that
of implacable dislike to the agricultural interest of the
country. He (Mr. Escott) might be mistaken ; but it
appeared so to him. That Hon. Member appeared to
have some sort of commission from a kind of Conference
or Synod which was held at Manchester—a parliamen-
. turn indoctum he could not call it. but a parliamentum
theol*m—whose discussions went to show, on the au-
thority of Scripture, that the Corn-laws were the means
of oppressing and starving the poor. He (Mr. Escott)
did not knowavvhy ; but the lion. Member entered, with-
out any attach having been made on that side of the
House, on the defence of those ministers of religion, for
meeting to discuss those difficult questions which now
engrossed public attention. Why had the Hon. Mem-
ber defended them ? Nobody had attacked them. He
(Mr. Escott) always looked with suspicion on a gra-
tuitous defence of that kind. It looked as if the cause
defended was a bad one. Was there any suspicion of
that kind loitering in the Hon. Member's mind ? He
(Mr. Escott) did not attack the ministers of religion for
meeting as they did. Btit were these ministers the same
parties who, for years past, had been denouncing the
ministers of the Established Church for meddling in
public affairs ? Were those the men who said that it
was their duty to confine themselves .to their spiritual
avocations, and to mind their flocks ? He knew
not ; but he knew that there were excelled
and good men amongst the Dissenting clergy, and
excellent and good men belonging to the Church of
England, who thought it their duty to take part in the
discussion of political questions. They might be both
right, but that man was not a good man, be he Church-
man or Dissenter, who thought it his duty to excite ill-
will among his fellow-men, by throwing on one party
the odium and accusation of being starvers of the poor.
—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) He would next
state what was in his mind the real question which was
before the House. That question was not, as was stu-
diously represented, whether or no Hon. Members of
the Ministerial side of the House had a right to discuss
the subject of the Corn-laws. That was not the ques-
tion. They had full right to discuss that sub-
ject • but the question was, whether the Ministers
of the Crown had a right to come down to Parliament
and put into their Sovereign's mouth a speech recom-
mending particular measures on which there was the
greatest possible difference of opinion in the country,
when they themselves had appealed to the country, and
bad found its voice against them by a large majority ad-
verse to them in that House. What, he would ask, was
the great doctrine of the responsibility of Ministers? Who
were they responsible to but to that House ? What
were Ministers now doing ? They were making their
Sovereign appear in an adverse position to that House—
to the people as represented in Parliament. He did not
envy them their position. Ministers were not exactly
out of office, but their fate was sealed. It was only a
question of a day or two till Honourable Members on
his (Mr. Escott's) side of the House took their places
on the other side. Why was it then they put their Sove-
reign in that painful position ? Why was it that they
made their Sovereign do that which had not been done
in this country for 200 years ? Why was it that they
forced the HouSe to come to a vote which was extraor-
dinary and perhaps unprecedented ? It was because
their course was extraordinary and unprecedented. It
was because thequestion was, should the House of Com-
mons give-up the rights of the people and succumb to
the Ministers of the Crown. He knew not how it'was
that they had been encouraged to act thus. Had
he been asked for a reassn for their so acting he
should certainly have said it had arisen from the
lenity with which they had been treated by both
Houses of Parliament during the last two years. The
moderation with which they had been treated, was
perhaps the best policy, as was proved by the result of
the last election. It was that course which placed the
Right Honourable Baronet, the Member for Tamworth,
in his present high position. Any Honourable
Gentlemen, he was certain, who might defend
Ministers would only defend them as the
Hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Roebuck) had done. That
'Hon. Gentleman said " He disliked Ministers and their
measures, but he was obliged to defend them because
he disliked those who were opposed to them more."
The unconstitutional course taken by the Noble Lord
the Secretary for the Colonies surprised him. Nothing
in the writings of the Noble Lord, nor in his previous
speeches, led him (Mr. E.) to expect such a course from
the Noble Lord. With respect to the Right Hon.
Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, he believed the
ground of his popularity to be that be never made
great professions—tnat he never promised the people to
do impossibilities. That was a popularity which had
the extraordinary advantage that it did not wane from
year to year, nor from Parliament to Parliament.
He had. endeavoured to state the reasons why he meant
to vote :for the amended Address ; but the people had,
in fact, decided that question. They indeed cared very
little about that question. The one which they really
cared for was, the question of cheap bread—the ques-
tion which was urged on the other side. He 'Could
speak on that question from his own experience. He
had heard the cry raised, and that in no contracted
sphere, and he saw the people disgusted by what they
considered to be an attempt to cajole them, and obtain
their support. In conclusion, lie would express the
hope, that if a discussion on the Corn-laws would arise
in that House or elsewhere, it would not be conducted
without acrimony or party feeling.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, (who
spoke so low as to be frequently inaudible) said he
could assure the lion. Member for Winchester (Mr. Es-
cott) that he should not follow him in his story respect-
ing the big and the little loaf, nor was lie going to tell
the House any story of what might have taken place
between himself and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman.
But he confessed that he had followed the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman with all the attention which his
speech deserved, and hewas not a little astonished, not
a little surprised, to bear from him that the House had
no right, and did not dare, according to the Constitution
40 the law, to discuss the question of the Corn-laws.—
(Loud cheers.) Why, "an appeal had been made
on that question to the feelings and the senti-
ments of the country. The country, from one end
to the other, had re-rechoed the discussions on that ques-
tion,—(Opposition cheers.) Hon. Gentlemen opposite
told them they came to represent the result of that dis-
cussion, and yet, on the first debate in that House, when
her Majesty, in a Speech, nominally the Speech of her
• Majesty, but in the eye of the Constitution the Speech
of her Ministers—(Opposition cheers)—placed that
question before awn for discussion, he then heard, for
the first time as a Parliamentary doctrine, that that Rase
had no right to outer into the dismission of the Corn-
laws.—(Cheers.) He confessed he thought the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman had failed in making out his
point, awd he seemed to doubt before the end of hiS
speech the truth of his own theory ; for, notwith-
standing he had said the Tleatle was incapable, after
aiMtS',lapwingsien, the Hon. and teamed Gentlemen could 144
avoid
rs
.theitory of the "'big anc.ll4tle loaf."---
(Chee
footing. that
even) 116 ing, eon,
Noble Friend who opened the debate
041
,ittto4thtielatdiiise llcus,soittoiti not•nnas
not put on a fair
diseusa the question crprotection—that lie would net
go into tote eon, and stv,,ar,
and timber duties. He said
also—at which he (the 'Chancellor of the Exchequer)
was not surprised—that these were not the questions on
his neighbours, yet there was the Right Hon.
B
which be bad talked to his constlttleUtli, He alluded
also to
entertaining the same principles as himself,
nthemp:sesent
who did talk of a fired duty, not ro
a permanent arrange.
meat, but as one which would lead to a further reduction
of proteetiOn. His Noble Friend said these were not
whether moment,the Governmentand that the
question for
d. the conali
questions to didianstoisnissaito
then in ,power c. Lune of' the country,—
(Cheers,)
„a (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
of the course which
did not complain
opposite had taken. lie thought they had a perfect right
hod he thought
at the earliest opportunity, .it was their
opportunity toi 1
duty to afford them that
vi
'ether it • •Ws
tion to 1:4, practical conclusion, was cape lent
way which -
or not to have done it or not in the ythe Right
Hon. Gentleman bad tionc—bother it was advisable to
--w
follow that system of silence with reertl.t4otehose great
questions which, for the first time -ra.rm 11. t ar y his.y, in the
wand import= partry, were adopted by a large a.
h lie certainly enter.
tamed another question on which
believed the mystery.
a very strong opinion. He
the
'to had enveloped course
in which gentlemen apposite
of their future 'Fallicy with regard to these great
questions, was neither consistent with real wisdom
—(Cheers,)
,
nor ultimately with good • --(Ch
thought that a party who were candidates for power
frankly us possible
ought to lay before the eoentry as
1
the course they proposed to pursheeses(Cheers, Whether
as
that were so or not—whether it ivas prispi)sVo,
did the Noble Lord who opened the #.lOl4tP,
and the Hon. Gentlemen who moved the amendment: to
omit all considerations of those great questions—to per-
form the play, emitting the partof Hamlet—was a subject
for the consideration of that House, but it was one at
which the country would be much surprized. The
Hon. Gentleman who opened the debate stated that a
great party, before they acceded to office, might follow a
system of silence, even on those questions which they"
themselves brought forward, and had chosen as subjects'
for discussion. The Hon. Gentleman, when he stated
this case,preferred an indictment containing three counts-
against the Government, charging them as unworthy to
govern the cottatry. Lic fairly stated that he was Wand

to prove his case, and to bring forward the grounds or
which he considered they were not entitled to the .confi.
dence of the House. The Hon. 'Gentleman, who spoke
with that ability which he always expected from him.
was followed by the Noble Lard (Bruce) who gave
great
_promise in debate of future eminence.—(Hear.)
lie (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had ex-
pected that some great leader of the ptrty—some-
of those who were accustomed to enter into the discus-
sions of Parliament—in whom the Conservative. party
had great confidence—would have given them an oppor
tunity of hearing the grounds on which they were ac
cused. He did not wish to underrate the Gentlemen
who had addressed that House, but he thought it would
have been a more fair and manly course to have given
them an opportunity of hearing those who were their
chief accusers, before they were called upon to enter on
their defence.—(Hear.) He would now address himself to
a few of the charges made by the Hon. Gentleman who
opened the debate. The Hon. Gentleman stated that
the main grounds on which he considered they had for-
feited the government of the country were first, that
they had departed from the professions of Lord- Grey.
If that were the case, he begged the House to look a
little at some of the accusations which the Hon. Gen-
tleman made against them, because he certainly saw two
of his Right Hon. Friends opposite whom he should take
the liberty of placing as criminals at the same bar.
The Hon. Gentleman said that the professions of Earl
Grey were peace, reform, and economy. He would
first deal with the question of peace. He stated that
Earl Grey had said that he would always keep the
country at peace. But that must be an .error, for it
would be ridiculous in any man to state thato-under any
circumstances, he would keep the country at .peace.
Well, he said, we went to war in Antwerp and Por-
tugal. He said they were little wars. It might be
so, but where, then, were his two Right Ho-
nourable, Friends ? They had followed as closely
as possible in the footsteps of these two great men in
their " little wars."—(Cheers.) If they had forfeited
the confidence of the country, he begged the Hon. Gen-
tleman to tell him whether he had transferred his confi-
dence to his two Right Honourable Friends. If that
were not enough, he would proceed to the next count,
that of Reform. There the Hon. Gentleman stated they
had performed more than their pledges ; for instance,
with regard to. Municipal Corporation Reform, not
however, he supposed, from a sense of public
duty, but because it might tend to their own Parlia-
mentary interest. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
apprehended, that if any charge was to be made of that
sort, he should, at any rate, share it with his two
Right Hon. Friends opposite.—(Cheers.) As regarded
the Municipal Reform Bill, they were as much parties to.
it as any Gentleman on his side of the House. It was
quite true they were not in the Government at the
time of the formation of the Bill, yet in all its future
stages they were as much engaged as any other person.
Then, were they to lose the confidence of the country,
to be dismissed, to be considered as utterly unworthy,
and to have the meanest motives attributed to them ?
While the Hon. Gentleman sat quietly, his two Right
Hon. Friends were about to transfer the confidence, of
which he said the Government was utterly unworthy, to
them.—(Cheers.) He then came to the question of eco-
nomy, and here he hoped to be permitted to state some
new facts and new figures which would disprove those
vague statements and erroneous financial details which
had prevailed in all parts sf the country. The Noble
Lord stated that they had been guilty of a " reckless and
profligate expenditure." He (the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer) had had some returns framed bearing on the question
before the House, to some of which he would
beg leave to call their attention. He begged to
state that in those returns he had shown the whole
expenditure of the country, whether as charges on
the national debt or other branches of the expeniture.
That mode of giving the expenditure appeared to him to
give the fairest and fullest view of the subject. When
they had the whole expenditure of the country fairly
before them they ought to compare what this " profli-
gate expenditure" was compared with that of former years.
He thought these figures would be the fairest answer
to those vague charges which he had made in the course
of the debate. The whole expenditure of the opposite
party, . far the fire years ending 1830, averaged
54,599,0001, and a fraction a year. The whole expen-
diture of her Majesty's Government, since their return
to office, for the five years ending in 1840, was
52,148,0001. and a fraction : so that the.average yearly
expenditure of the Whig Government, as compared
with that of the Right Honourable Gentlemen opposite,
was less by the annual sum of 2,450,000/.—(Cheers.)
He had not made these comparisons with the view of ac-
cusing former Governments of spending more than was
necessary; he had done so in defence of a Government
charged by Hon. Gentlemen opposite with " reckless
and profligate expenditure."—(Cheers.) He might be
told that the Duke of Wellington's Government was new
in office, and that the last three years were the only fair
years of which to compare the expenditure. He would
admit, what he had frequently admitted, that Ho-
nourable Gentlemen opposite had exercised the op-
portunity frequently afforded them of considerably
reducing the expenditure of the country. Then let him
compare their expenditure with that of the last three
years of the Duke of Wellington's Government. The
average expenditure of that Gvvernment, for the three
years ending in 1830, was 53,462,0001. and a fraction.
The average expenditure of her Majesty's Government
was, as he had stated, 52,148,0001., so that, even as
compared with the three last years of the Duke of Wel-
lington's Government, the average expenditure of her
Majesty's present Governmen had been less by 1,313,0001.
He would now compare the last year 1840, with the
average expenditure of the three last years of the Duke
of Wellington Administration, requesting the Heuse to
bear in mind that in that year there was an extraor-
dinary increase of expenditure on account of the affairs
in China, in Syria, and in the East Indies. The expen-
diture, however, of 1841 was 18,000/. less than the ave-
rage expenditure of the three last of the Wellington Ad-
mmistration.(Cheers.) With respect to the compara-
tive state of the debt under the administration preceding
Earl Gtpy, and those which had been in office 'since
1830, he would read a statement which contained data
upon which the House might. make a fair comparison.
It should be remembered that in the last five years a
large amount of debt had been thrown upon the country
by the grant of twenty milliOns to the holders of slaves
in the West Indies.—(Hear, hear.) He did not regret
it, but when they came to compare matters between the
two sets of Ministers, they must take that portion of the
debt into account, although it was incurred in a great
and noble cause.—(Hear, hear.) In 1831 the total
amount of the national was 838,549,0001. In 1841,
including the West India grant, there was no increase
of that debt, but, on the country, a diminution of one
million.—(Much cheering.) If they had been left with-
out that additional burthen the debt would have stood
in 1835, at 815,957,0001., and in 1841 a reduction equal
to 32,000,000 would have been effected.—(Repeated
cheering.) He might here be allowed, as it
was a matter of some importance, to observe
upon a subject which had been alluded to in
a manner calculated to lead the public to suppose
that the security of the funds in savings' banks had been
endangered—(Hear, hear)—it had come to him through
the usual channels of information that a statement to
that effect had been matte ; but he hoped that the lan-
guage actually made use of had been improperly re-
ported.—(Hear, hear.) He would not now discuss the
question, whether the course which lie adopted was con-
stitutional or not, but he would assert, that in no respect
had, the security of those funds been hazarded.—(llear,
hear.) And it the Right Ron. Member for Cambridge
did him the honour of replying to him, he hoped that
he would bear him out in this, that, in whatever he had
done, he had left to the depositors and the savings' banks
the same security as they ever possessed.—(Hear,
hear.) In comparing the conduct of the present
Government with that of its predecessors in re-
spect to the debt, they should look back to the year
1827. In that year a Finance Committee was appointed,
who reported that the supposed Sinking Fund of
five millions had never boon practically applied.
In the years 189.6 and 1827, whilst it was held
out to the Government that the whole amount
of five millions had been so applied, there was really a
defiCiency upon the whole revenue of 645,000( in the for-
mer year, and of 826,000.. in the latter, That Committee
recommended, that instead of looping up the Sinking
Fund, any MOW revenue should be applied to redeem
the national debt, That recommendation was never car-
ried into effect, but the surplus was allowed to aecumu
late. And, in 1830, it rose to three millions. The
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr, Goulburn) had
the opportunity of following up the recommendation of
the Quijunittee, but he bad not done so. He left a sur-
plus, which was stated at 390,0004 but it really amounted
to 600.000/.—(Hear.) Since that time, the policy of
Lord Spencer had been followed, which was, that the
formation of a Sinking Fund was not the best means of
relieving the people, but the taxation should be reduced
as much as passible, and theactual burden of the national
debt diminished by best enabling the people to bear it,
although its nominal amount would be the same. The
natural result of that policy was, that in cases of extra-
ordinary emergency the Government was, obliged to
come to the country for the means of meeting it by an
extraordinary support,—(Hear, hear.) If it were sup-
posed that the financial policy was not wise, lie begge
the House to look at the result. In 1831 the revenue
was 51,150,0001. ; since that year six millions of taxes
were taken off. But in 1839 the revenne had not fallen
soffii,tc2).lt,hoeoca
amount_( h
e f
r tins butta it
swhich
had risen to
taken oft' in the meantime was that upon"newspapers, and
of
taxes
when that reduction was proposed, some Gentlemen op,
posite suggested that before they took off tilb taXt+A upon
knowledge they ought VI take off the tax on soap.
But the -result of' that experiment, in which the Noble
Lord opposite concurred, was satisfactory.—(Hear,
hear.) He now came to the question of the
post-office, and he approached it with an idea that the
moment it was menttoned, he Quid hear laud cheers
and erica of it It had heen an entire ihilure," but that
was not the tano which was adopted at the time. The
Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) admitted the
great benefit which the reduction would confer upon the
country, but he required that an equivalent shoold he
found in other taxes,—(near, hoar.) is Noble Friend
(Lard Monteagle) satisfied that condition, and found the
equivalent in other taxes.—(Hear, hear.) He now came
to the
finanoial measures which he had the honour to
propose in the last session. Re would not go over the
ground which had been sufficiently traversed by llon.
Gentlemen upon that (the Liberal) side of the House,
alc;
olinwithebe4eitillccapresflidi leli_:_a(vcoltepdrs
(17 allT htheosteimwehomiu'ol;
come when those Tien, Gentlemen must lift the veil, and
the mountain would give forth its mouse.---(e Oh," and
laugh ter,) -rt
-.Alt although in that House they were
told that they had no right to discuss those questions,
and that their only duty was to vote on the
question of confidence or no confidence—(Tory
cheers)—there were places where that prohibition did not
extend.—(Cheers.) lle confessed he felt surprise to find
that it had been stated that the reduction of the timber
duties 01'110 value to the consumers, and that it was
it
Siril as reuarcjecl revohtle, The party who made
a9iti