The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-06 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF LORDS, March 5.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool-
sack shortly after Five o'clock.
NATIONAL EDUCATION.
Lord BROUGHAM laid on the table a petition from
James Bentley, of Aldgate Chambers, in the city of
London, in reference to the subject of national educa-
tion, and said that the petitioner had been engaged in
inquiries on the subject of his petition, and had acquired
a great deal of information, together with a vast amount
of facts, which was well deserving attention.
POOR-LAW IN IRELAND.
Lord BROUGHAAI also presented petitions from the
inhabitants of Cashel and of Thurles, in Ireland, com-
plaining of the mode of rating for the poor-law cess.
Ihe Noble and Learned Lord stated that he had several
similar petitions, with which he would not trouble their
Lordships.
CASE OF MRS. SHUT ILEWORTII.
The NOI3LE AND LEARNED Loan:also laid on the table
a petition from Dr.Quale, of Louvain College, in Belgium,
and a member of the College of Surgeons, in London,
zomplaining of the treatment of a lady named Shuttle-
worth, who had been removed from the custody of her
friends and placed in a lunatic asylum.
LAW OF SETTLEMENT.

The Earl of CLARENDON presented a petition
from the board of guardians of Tavistock against the
the law of settlement, and praying to be empowered to
give out-door relief to the unemployed poor.
DISTRESS IN IRELAND.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition
from the rate-payers of Ballinrobe, praying their Lord-
ships to adopt speedy measures for the relief of Irish
distress.
LABOURING POOR (IRELAND) BILL.
The report on this Bill was brought up by the Earl
of Shaftesbury.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, in giving no-
tice that this Bill would be read a third time on Mon-
day next, he might take that opportunity of stating to
the Noble Lord (Brougham), in reference to his ques-
tion last night affecting Captain Wynne, that several
papers and returns had been moved for in the other
House of Parliament, and among the rest a return of all
the names of the men who had been dismissed from the
public employment, these amounting to about 1,000 or
2,000.
Earl RADNOR-9,ooo.—(Laughter.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—WeII, perhaps the
return was not the more possible by the alteration.—
(Laughter.) But h must say that Captain Wynne was
still retained in the public service.
Lord BROUGHAM was perfectly satisfied with the
answer of the Noble Marquis, but he must say, that
anything less in keeping with the case than the namee
of the parties dismissed, he never heard ; in fact, it
raised an entirely different issue.
Earl RADNOR wished to know whether the Noble
Marquis could state what prospect there was of a
diminution being effected in the number of men em-
ployed on the public works in Ireland?
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was not the least
surprised at the question put by his Noble Friend, and
not at all surprised that much anxiety prevailed on the
subject to which it hail reference. axe could assure
his Noble Friend that ho participated in that
anxiety. It undoubtedly had been the intention of the
Government that the public works should be gradually
discontinued; and the reason they had not carried out
their intention was owing to the increasing destitu-
tion in Ireland, and the scarcity, or rather the
absolute failure., of any other means by which they
could gain their support. Another reason was the dif-
ficulty, or rather the impossibility, of carrying at once
into operation those measures which the Govern-
ment had proposed as a substitute, one of which
had recently been passed, and no time had
been lost; in forming committees under the Bill.
But if any new works were commenced a report of
their nature and their object would be laid before their
Lordships. He hoped that, at no distant period, a
diminution in those public works would take place, and
that steps would be taken to put an end to the
abuses which had been stated to exist.
Lord BROUGHAM entertained the same opinion as
his Noble Friend (Earl Redner), as he considered they
had got into a plan, the inevitable consequence of which
was that it could not stop where it was.
Lord MOUNTCASIIEL said it was to the interest of
the landlords to diminish the expense of those works as
much as possible, but when they found people dying on
the road sides, in the fields, and in wretched hovels, lie
anticipated that they would not act wisely if they
stopped those works suddenly, and thereby deprived those
of a subsistence who were at present employed.
After a few words from Earl 11A.DNOR, the report
was agreed to, and the Bill ordered to be read a third
time on Monday next.
SECONDARY PUNISHMENTS—CUSTODY OF
OFFENDERS AND PRISONS' BILLS.
Earl GREY rose to move the second reading of the
Custody of Offenders' Bill. The object of the Bill
itself was but of little importance, being to assimilate
the law of Ireland relating to offenders to the law as it
existed on the subject in Great Britain. By the exist-
ir.g British law it was at the discretion
of the Crown to send offenders either out of
the country, to the prisons of Pentonville or
Millbank, or to the hulks. But the power which
the law of Great Britain gave to the Crown did not
exist in Ireland; there was no power to dispose of off •n
ders but to send them to Van Dieuian's Land or Norfolk
Island. To effect the assimilation of the law of the two
countries on this subject was the whole scope of the pre-
sent Bill. There was another Bill, the second reading of
which ha also proposed to move to-night, but in itself
it was not of much importance. The object of it was to
effect a necessary change in the constitution of the go-
verning bodies of the prisons of Pentonville, Millbank,
and Parkhurst. That though these Bills were not of
much importance by themselves, he thought it right at
the present time to call the attention of their Lordships
to the whole subject of secondary punishments, because
these were not the only legislative measures of the kind
that would be required. The change which had taken
place in the country's policy had no less an object in view
than changing the whole system of punishment hitherto
adopted—no less than the virtual abolition of transpor-
tation. By law, the Executive Government might
make this change without applying to Pediment ; but
considering the importance of the step, ho thought it
better to bring the subject formally before the House, as
he considered the Government would not be performing
its duty in doing so without distinctly calling
the attention of Parliament to it. There was
no subject of greater importance than the treatment
of felons. It was necessary for the existence of society
that the punishments should be such as to deter offenders
from the commission of crime, and at the same time such
as were calculated to reform and improve the unhappy
object of the punishment. This was the great ob-
ject that legislators had to keep steadily in view.
These were objects of the highest importance, at the
same time no less important was the difficulty of finding
the remedy. It was a subject on which various plans
had been adopted by the various civilised nations of the
world, and he believed that nowhere could it be said
that that great and difficult problem—the discovery of
the best mode of reclaiming offenders that that
,great problem had received a complete and satis-
factory solution, But although the experience of
late years, both in that and the other countries of
Europe, enabled them to judge better than they could
have done a few years ago what measures it would
be the more expedient to adopt, they were still far, very
far, from being in a condition to place the subject on a
perfectly satisfactory footing. He had already stated
that in the change which her Majesty's Government
had determiued to introduce— had considered
ought to be introduced—into the policy of the
country, that change extended to no less
than the virtual abolition of transportation,
because when he said transportation, he did not include
the punishment of offenders at Bermuda and Gibraltar.
It was one of the main features of transportation, that
in the majority of eases the persons on whom that sen-
tence had been passed, where parties were removed to a
remote part of the world, at the termination of their
sentences remained in the colony, and did not return to
this country; thus the country was relieved of the
presence of those criminals, which, as he had already
said, was ono of the main objects of this
punishment. But in Gibraltar and in Bermuda
this was not the case ; on the contrary, criminals
were not allowed to remain in those places, but were
brought back to England at the public expense. The
punishment at Gibraltar and Bermuda was therefore to
be considered only as an extension of the hulk system,
not as a punishment of transportation. It was only that
a certain number of criminals who would have been
otherwise sent to the hulks at Portsmouth and
Woolwich, had been sent to Bermuda and Gi-
bralter, because their labour there was found
exceedingly valuable to the country. But, defining
in this manner what he meant by transportation,
he said that they proposed to do away with the system of
transportation as hitherto adopted. He could not be-
lieve that any of their Lordships who had road the late
papers on this subject, and compared them with the
papers of former years—that any of their Lordships
who had looked at the measure adopted on this subject,
would think that it was not an absolute necessity—he could
not use a lighter word—an absolute necessity to effect the
change of policy which the Government intended to adopt.
Instead of a recapitulation of what had passed upon that
subject, it would be enough to show their Lordships that
such a necessity really existed. He would remind their
Lordships that the system of transportation was
Ze_r different formerly from that system which
of late years existed. The convicts sent
t.in New South Wales and Van Dieman's Land were not
Kept n the charge of the Government, but they were
sent to private individuals, to whom they were placed in
the situation
they were
g—hemitght almost say—of slaves, because
compelledregulations, wages
serve those persons, when, accord-
ing to there
w :lei were not allowed to be paid
and they only received'
neglect
rlfood and clothing, arid in
the event of iailure or
summary kind,
orders their punish-
ment was of the most for they were flog-
ged by order of a magistratel'
to all intents
It was
then existed
and purposes a system of slavery
in the colonies. In the year
bleSian7g a Committee,
of
which he had the honour of
member, was
appointed in the other House of Parliament toconsiddeearl
this subject. That Committee sat both the session of
1837, and the following session, and it took a great
of evidence on the subject. The result to which the
Committee came was, he thought, as well as he could re-
member, without a single difference of opinion among the
Committee—which was numerous, and composed of Sir
R. Peel, Lord John Russell, and various other gentle-
men—and it was most ably presided over by Sir W.
Molesworth—was that there was an absolute neces-
sity for doing away with the system of assignment. The
system was one of the grossest inequality and injustice,
for it was a matter of perfect accident whether
that which was intended to be in the nature of a punish-
ment, for if the man got a good master— ODO disposed to
be indalgenb—he was not punished at 311. Criminals

sentenced in this country for some most heinous offences,
if they were good mechanics or workmen, instead of
finding themselves worse off than they had been
in this country, they found their situations infinitely
improved. He remembered the case of some convicts
sent from this country ; they were agricultural labourers
sentenced in consequence of the riots of 1830, when so
severe a ;distress existed in Kent and Dorsetshire.
Many of them were extremely good agricultural
labourers, and consequently their services were
much sought after. When they were assigned
their masters were extremely anxious to keep them in
good humour ; and these men, whom the Government
meant to punish, were far better off than they had ever
been in England. The cause of these riots was the
severe pressure and distress which existed ; and they
who had been receiving 7s. or Bs. per week wages, and
living en the most scanty diet, received the most enor-
mous rations out in their place of transportation.
In some cases it was no punishment at all, while in other cases
it was a punishment of the severest kind. In many cases the
assigped convict was a frightful slave to his master, who, if he
were brutal or urgent, might subject him to a continued system
of annoyance and ill-treatment, and if he were stung into mu-
tiny and resistence, he was liable to be dragged before a ma-
gistrate, who, upon the representation of the master, sentenced
him to the most cruel corporal punishment. The returns on
this subject showed that this punishment was one of the great-
est suffering. This punishment was without its moral effect
in deterring crime, while those, who from the circumstance he
had described, were better treated, wrote to their friends, tell-
ing them how well they were off, and holding forth induce-
ment to them, to the commission of crime, to enable them to
come out to them. When he was Under-Secretary for the
Colonies he had opportunities of seeing several of these letters,
which painted the condition of the writers in very glowing co-
lours. No doubt these representations were sometimes false, but
their tendency was injurious. The Committee of 1838 had some
to a determination that the system of assignment should be done
away with, and a resolution to that effect was laid before the
House of Commons. Measures were then taken to abolish that
system, and it was determined that a much smaller number
should be sent out than before. The system which Lord John
Russell then proposed to introduce was to extend the system of
imprisonment at home. But in 1841 it was moved that it was
inexpedient that there should be such a number of convicts in
the hulks. That motion was resisted on the part of the Go-
vernment, but it was carried by a great majority of the House
of Commons. He believed this occurred when there were few
in the House, and in the month of March, and it happened to-
wards the conclusion of the Melbourne Administration ; and no
measure was adopted for carrying that resolution into effect
during the Melbourne Administration. But there was a
change of Government. It was determined that the views of
the House of Commons should be acted upon, and after a good
deal of discussion, it was decided that the convicts
should be sent abroad, except a comparatively
small number, such as were more proper
subjects of the discipline of Pentonville, Parkhurst, and the
hulks, and those whose age made it expedient to send them out
of the country ; but the rest were sent either to the Bermudas
or to Norfolk Island. In consequence of that measure a large
number were sent to these parts. He confessed that at the
time he entertained the strongest convictions that this would
lead to a very great evil, that great mischief would result to
those colonies unless there was a system for carrying on pu-
nishment adequate to the occasion. Their Lordships would
remember, too, that at that great distance from the control of
Government, anything unusual, or requiring attention,
could only receive that after a year's delay and writing home to
the Government. Looking at that their Lordships must feel that
the difficulty of carrying out a system of penal labour was
great indeed. In 1843, therefore, although previously the
system had been adopted to a considerable extent, a large
number of convicts were yet to be sent abroad.
If, however, he said transportation to Van Dieman's Land had
been confined to a small number of persons, he believed
that the impression produced on the imagination of
men respecting punishment inflicted by society, and at a dis-
tance, and the regret of being lost sight of by their friends
would have counterbalanced the evil, in a great measure, of
carrying out that system of punishment at a distance. But
when this system was still applied generally—not to a few
hundreds, as proposed originally, but to many thousands—when
a system of this kind was carried out in Bermuda, he believed
it was utterly impossible that any other result could have been
anticipated than that which actually occurred. Now, he
thought the papers which had been lately laid on the table
would prove to their Lordships that the anticipations which had
been formed with respect to this system were but too well
founded ; but he would not disgust their Lordships by the
horrible, the monstrous details of the abuses which had
sprung up in Norfolk Island. A state of things had been
proved, upon evidence, to exist there, the particulars of which
could not be doubted by the general effect of that evidence,
which made it perfectly clear that a system had been allowed
to grow up in that small island, the details of which, were too
horrible to mention.—( Hear.) It had been proved to the dis-
grace of the British name, that a system existed there which
was a disgrace to the British flag. Very shortly after he was
appointed to the office which he had the honour to hold, he
found that the condition of Van Dieman's Land was so con-
clusive against any continuation of the system, that he in-
structed the new Governor, before he left this country, to
break up the establishment there, and he was happy to find
that his predecessor (Sir E. Wilmot) had anticipated that
order, as he had taken measures to break up the convict esta-
blishments in the island. The fearful outbreak in the island
would perhaps have been successful, had not some troops op-
portunely arrived ; had they not, they might have over-
powered the small body of troops, and destroyed the free in-
habitants of the colony. The breaking up of the establish-
ment was, therefore, inevitable; but he was concerned to state
that Van Dieman's Land was not in a much better state ; it
was in a state fearful to enter into, and those of their Lordships
who had looked at the evidence could not fail to be dissatisfied
with the present condition of that colony. He had often heard
of the abuses of the hulks, but he must say the worst of them
was well managed compared with the colony of Van Dieman's
Land. Ho had ;very evidence that the system was as bad as
it could well be. For though the governor and superinter.dents
of the colony did not altogether support this extreme view of the
state of things, Sir Eardley Wilmot and Sir John Franklin,
admitted that the system was most injurious. From other
quarters he had received accounts to a similar effect. Last
year the Noble Lord the President of the Council presented
a petition signed by the Bishop of the colony and a great
number of the most respectable inhabitants, calling attention
to the deplorable state of things. It was signed by from 1,700
to 1,800 of the colonists, who described in the strongest terms
the condition to which the colony had been reduced, and that
there was no security for life and property. He had also seen
within the last few months persons from the colony who, to
the fullest extent, supported this view of the state of things. He
had seen the Protestant Bishop, as well as the Roman Ca-
tholic Bishop, and both the Right Reverend Bishops stated
that the future prospects of the colony were frightful to con-
template. Then, with regard to the expenditure which had ,
been necessary to effect this system of transportation, it
was so large, that he was convinced, had it
been applied under a well conceived system of em-
ploying the convicts in this country, it would have
been sufficient to erect places of punishment of the best
character for those who offended the laws. Under the present
system the coleny had been almost ruined. But further, he
was forced to say that in consequence of this system it was too
true that a great many of the most valuable settlers in Van
Dieman's Land had been forced to quit. A most serious blow
had been given to the property of the colony by this large in-
flux of convicts which was pi,ured into it. Van Dieman's
Land had been formerly a thriving and prosperous colony, but
from the time that this enormous influx of convicts was poured
into it, the state of things was greatly altered. He was far
from attributing that change to that circumstance alone. Ile
knew that commercial distress existed in this country—that
there was a reaction from over speculation, and from various
other causes of that kind. No doubt the distress in Great
Britain had assisted the change in the colony, but it was
also certain that the system of sending large numbers of con-
victs to Van Dieman's Land was one cause of the failing in
that prosperity. And it had been said that the deterioration in
that colony was not so much owing to the system
as to the inability of the persons by whom that system had
been carried out ; it had been said that a greater degree of
energy on the part of the principal officers, to whom the Go-
vernment had committed the superintendence of Vass Dieman's
Land and Norfolk Island and instructed the management of
the convicts, would have produced a different result. He could
not adopt that opinion. In the first place, her Majesty's Go-
vernment had the choice of the agents to whom that superin-
tendence was committed ; but, without pretending to deny
that there might have been faults on the part of the authorities
—a question on which he did not wish to give any opinion
either one way or the other—but without pretending to deny
that such might have been the case, he still was strongly of
opinion that it was impossible for them in the difficult position
in which they were placed to have carried out this system so
as to have led to a satisfactory result, because, if their Lord-
ships would allow him to remind them, the carrying into effect
the system of penal labour had always been found most diffi
cult and unsatisfactory, whether that system had been tried
in the colonies of this country or in America.
Whether it had been tried in this country or in America, it
had always been found that any system of punishment hitherto
adopted had met with very great difficulties and obstructions.
It Lad already appeared that these difficulties and obstructions
had been multiplied tenfold when the system had to be worked
by a delegated authority, removed to as great a distance as Van
Dieman's Land, or Norfolk Island, from this country. And
from those who had the responsibility of carrying into effect,
and ordering the system, and who should look well into the
practical operation. It should be closely watched from day to
checked ; and when any errors arose—and errors
day; and whenever abuses seemed to be rising, they should he
instantly
were inseparable from a system of the kind—correction should
be instantly made by those in authority. Such an authority
as the Lieutenant-Governor of Van Dieman's Land could not
be sufficient ; for, in the first place, he was bound to consult
his inferior officers, and the Deputy. Governor, before he could
make any material alteration of the plans or made any material
change, was bound to wait until ho could receive authority
from home to the purpose. In Norfolk Island this was still nearer
the case. The administrator of punishment in Norfolk Island
was the delegate of a delegate. The Governor of Van Die-
man's Land was the authority to whom he immediately looked,
and over him was her Majesty's Government at home. The
communication between Van Dieman's Land and Norfolk
Island was very irregular and slow, and it was kept up by
sailing vessels, so that the opportunities of communication were
very rare, and in Norfolk Island, there being no free inhabi-
tants, so that if any of the officers there found anything going
wrong, there was no means of obtaining any improvement ex-
cept by the slow process of appealing to the separate authori-
ties at Van Dieman's Land or here. Again, one of the great dif-
ficulties of any good system of punishment was the difficulty
of finding proper agents to carry on the executive part. When
he spoke of proper agents, he meant more especially the subor-
dinate agents. Most of their Lordships had had more or less
knowledge of the means by which prisons were conducted in
this country, and they all knew that the efficiency of a prison
discipline depended almost as much upon the inferior officers
as upon the governors: If they had not trustworthy officers it
was impossible for the best governors to carry on a good sys-
tem of discipline. In Van Dieman's Land there was great
difficulty in obtaining trustworthy officers ,• and that diffi-
culty was infinitely greater than over here. In Norfolk Island
it was greater still. In the first place, it was impossible, be-
cause the scale of remuneration was much higher there than
it was in this country, and the salary which in this country
would secure the services of a first-rate person in his rank of
life would, in the colonies, be wholly insufficient. Their
Lordships were aware that even the lowest artificers received
very high wages in the colonies, and many of those persons
who had been sent out by the Government as officers over the
convicts had been tempted out of the service by the superior
offers made to them by merchants to go to them in the capacity
of clerks. Even supposing that the Government were to go
t') a greater expense than it did at present, it would then find
almost the impossibility of obtaining proper agents for their
were not. g
re.h But now that in smaller colonies, like Van Dieman's
pules, very high,
he was afraid party spirit and party division ran
Y ,It was extremely difficult to get overseers who
or
ionueennceerfaillbyv
oi;perlicettnedsideriantiontshewsehichlocnaalturad
ie.
lly
❑
vernor had not the same
seers who might be in,e
operate on the latama.
Puoionidn;
fafinedee to remove any of these over-
seers as existed at home. He
At the same time the go-
of
staaett was always liable to be
a e.cesrwhiich would naturally
imta cdiateeair case ; thus de-
could only suspend hire
suspending an
reversed by the Secretary
Besides, if an overseer died, it was
induce him to proceed only on
ipnrei vinincgaeiohuims
fuonfe
titohneary. power
Besoidf

ongest term for an offence of the gravest character.
Lord BROUHAM.—Eighteen months continuously?
Earl GREY.—Yes, continuously. The medical officers
of Pentonville had watched narrowly the effect of fhe punish-
ment of separate confinement, and they reported that eighteen
months was safe. Mr. 13rodie and Dr. Ferguson had re-
ported that separate confinement could not be continued be-
yond eighteen months ; it was safe within that time, and
that with due care over the condition of the patient, as the
period advanced, it might be inflicted with safety. It was
clear, however, that if separate confinement should be adopted
that alone would fall short of the object, in ;the case of
an offender guilty of a grave offence. Let them take, for
instance, a case of aggravated manslaughter, where the jury has
hesitated whether they ought to convict the man of murder or
of manslaughter, and when the man was sentenced to trans-
portation for life, it was clear in that case that eighteen months
separate confinement would be very inadequate. It was pro-
posed, therefore, under separate confinement that every of-
fender should undergo a further punishment by labour on the
public works. Ile was aware that mode of punishment was
liable to great objections. Formerly it was carried on in the
hulks, and it laboured under great objections, and these, too,
very just. But he could not help thinking that these objections
append rather to the manner than the nature of that punish-
ment.—(Hear, hear.) He did not believe that penal labour,
when the offenders were allowed to associate together, had a
tendency to raise any such objection as had been taken. The
objection to the system formerly adopted was, that coercion by
the lash was the only thing which the prisoners in the hulks
had to fear, and the superintendence on board those ships was
most inadequate from the want of a sufficient number of offi-
cers. The whole system, in short, required very great im-
Frovement ; but of late years many improvements had been
effected, and they would be carried much further. Now they
proposed that convicts should be employed on the public works
under a system by which he hoped the evils which generally
arose by the associating together of large bodies of convicts
would be, to a very great extent, remedied. In the first
place, it would certainly contribute to this end that each con-
vict would undergo a preliminary and sepal ate period of con-
finement, and except upon the most hardened, that period of
confinement would make an impression upon their minds which
would greatly facilitate the maintenance of a proper system
of discipline after their liberation, and employment upon
the public works ; but if a convict misconducted himself on the
public works he would render himself liable to be sent back
to undergo a further period of punishment by imprisonment.
But what he looked at, as a matter of extreme impor' once, was
the system under which the public works were to be carried on.
Their Lordships were, no doubt, aware of the plan proposed
with this view by Captain Maconochie, but the trial which was
made of it under his own superintendence was very far from
successful ; it was right to state that he attributed its failure to
the difficulties which lie had to encounter, and which, he said,
would not occur for the future ; but looking at the experiment
which had been made, and relying upon the judgment of those
who had had much experience in the subject of criminal dis-
cipline, he (Earl Grey) could not help stating that he was im-
pressed with the conviction that the plan of Captainafaconochie,
as proposed by himself, could not be practically carried into
effect. Still he thought there was much in his suegestions
which was valuable, and that his fundamental plan was
good. It was this, that convicts should be employed on
public works, or to be subject to a system by which they
should have a great and direct interest in their
own good conduct and industry, not only in the
abridgment of the period of their sentence, but in the enjoy.
ment of certain immediate advantages. He (Earl Grey) was
convinced that this was an essentially sound and good plan, but
it was one which had been already tried, as at Bermuda and
Gibraltar the convicts had a direct interest in the labour which
they performed, and was found to be of the greatest possible
value, as it not only paid the expense of their maintenance and
,uperintendence, but left a considerable annual surplus besides.
In Gibraltar the gain of a convict for four years was some -
'-where about 421., or about IW. a year, and this was effected
with the best results to the colony. Where the value of the
work was small, as in Van Dieman's Land, they
were naturally led to the conclusion that the system was lax ;
but where, as in the case of Gibraltar, they find the labour of
the convicts producing this result, they might naturally con-
clude that the system in force was a good one. Hitherto the
means of release had been dependent upon a convict's good con-
duct, as a person who behaved himself well whilst on board the
hulks, stood a chance of being recommended to have his liberty
guaranteed to him. No doubt labour upon the public works in
the way he had pointed out, would be found most valuable as
a punishment. With respect to the period for which a person
was to be employed on the public works, it was intended
that every man who really conducted himself well, who
was industrious, and who did not do anything which would
subject him to fresh punishment, shall be able to obtain his
liberty at the expiration of about one-half the period of his
sentence. This rule had been acted upon in the Hulks, and
transportation for life was commuted into twenty-one years'
banishment; or that if he conducted himself well who was
transported for coven years, might obtain his discharge after
three and a half or four }ears banishment. In continuing
this system they intended to retain what he thought was the
real advantage in the former system of transportation, for it
was not without compensating advantages. In this country a
man who had his character blasted by undergoing punishment,
found at the expiration of his sentence, however good his in-
tentions, however strong his desire to give up his criminal ha-
bits, and to return to a life of honest industry, that there were
yet difficulties in the way of his accomplishing his purpose
(Hear, hear)—as almost every description of employ-
ment was closed against him, and wherever he went
to seek employment, he found others selected instead of him ;
and therefore, however strong this good intention might be,
he was frequently driven by absolute distress again into the
commission of crime.—(Hear, hear.) The case was different
in the colonies, as there was a great demand for labour. In
New South Wales many convicts who had obtained tickets of
leave had amassed large fortunes—in fact, in many in•
stances this had been carried to an extent which was in-
jurious ; therefore they proposed, that during the latter period
of his employment, he should be allowed wages nearly the
full value of his labour, but that it should be retained, with
the exception of a small portion to encourage him in his pre-
sent efforts, until the expiration of his sentence, in order that
he might have the means of emigrating ; and, following up,
as far as possible, the system in force in the colonies, it was
proposed that those who had secured the means of
paying their way to the colonies, and who had conducted them-
selves well, should receive a conditional pardon, the condition
being that they should not remain in England. The plan was
in force in Van Dieman's Land. and was this— that a convict,
when he received a conditional pardon, might go where he
liked, but that he must not return to England until his term
had expired. Generally they had no wish to do so, as they
found it would be more advantageous to them to stop in the
colony. He was encouraged to hope that this system would be
attended with the beat results, judging from the condition of the
exiles who had been sent to Port Philip from Pentonville Pri-
son. Those who had gone to Van Dieman's Land had not suc-
ceeded se well, on account of the state of the color.y, and from
the difficulty of obtaining employment, owing to the immense
number of convicts who had congregated there ; in fact, they
had increased to such an extent, as to render it necessary
for the Government to maintain them, and the last
return showed that there were no less than 3,000 awaiting
hiring in probation gangs. It was not, however, proposed
that the men should go out without their families. It was true
that to those who left Pentonville this was not allowed, as
they had undergone but a short period of imprisonment; but
when, after a long imprisonment, they were sent abroad,
and could by their earnings, take their families with them,
they would be allowed to do so; and to this he (Earl Grey)
attached the utmost importance, as this would, in a great
measure, do away with the disparity in the sexes which
existed in many of our colonies ; and if the Go-
vernment did not allow it, they stood without ex-
cuse. The thought, also, that the sojourn in this country
would give time for teaching those who were ignorant to read
and write and to acquire some trade which might be useful to
them in the colony, so that they would have a class of persons
going to their colonies who would be found of great advantage.
He hoped also that they would be sent out in such a way in
which they would not be recognised as criminals on their ar-
rival at their destination. They would go as paid passengers
on board the ordinary emigrant ships amongst other emigrants,
so that they would not be recognised from those on their ar-
rival, or if they were, they would soon overcome any prejudice
which might be created against them. It was right to state,
that at a meeting recently held at Port Philip, it was urged
that advantage would accrue by sending more exiles to that
part of New South Wales. Where parties would become
responsible for the future conflict of the convicts, they
would be liberated on leaving the public works, instead of
being sent out of the colony, as this plan of emi-
gration did not partake of a penal character. The next
point was when the proposed alterations would be carried into
effect. From information he had received, ho found that in
the course of the present year, it was calculated that means
were already available for the separate confinement of the
prisoners. In addition to the accommodation which the Pen-
tonville, Parkhurst, and Millbank prisons would afford, the
prisons in the various counties would, when not fully tenanted,
be available for this purpose, as the support of the prisoners
was now paln', by the State, and not out of the county rates.
But this duration only applied to Great Britain as in Ireland,
he was sorry to say there was not the required accommodation
for the separate confinement of the convict, but no time would
be lost in providing the necessary receptacles. Prisons, on the
plan of the Pentonville prison, were prepared. With regard
to the reception of the convicts, after the completion of their
confinement, he might state that it would be necessary to use
the hulks as at present, but nothing would be left undone
to improve them. A great deal had been recently done
in the appointment of additional officers, and in the promotion
of a better discipline than heretofore; yet he admitted after
all that the hulks were most imperfect prisons, and that re-
ceptacles on shore should be provided in lieu of them. Wooden
mb
gi
hd
ti n
bges
rweemr eo v iend
ftrhe om cps)
luaresee t
oo f
placeb e i n gim erected,the
ross t
ct
nh a t
of t hey
the
public works required.
The Duke of WELLINGTON—Why not of iron?
Earl GREY—The Noble Duke inquired why they were not
to be constructed of iron. He would inform him that wood, in
the opinion of engineers, would be both cheaper and more ad-
vantageous. The convicts could be employed in quarrying
stones and in labouring at harbours of refuge, which
the Noble Duke was so anxious to see carried out.

Such were the measures which the Government proposed with
regard to the male convicts. It was necessary that they should
observe that he had confined himself in all the observations to
adult male convicts. With respect to the female convicts, it
was intended, for the present, that they should continue to be
sent to Van Dieman's Land. Considerable pains had been
taken in improving and establishing, for the reception of female
convicts, proper places in Van Dieman's Land. There was
not much difficulty experienced in dispoing of them, and,
therefore, at present, it was proposed to continue sending them
there. With respect to the class of juvenile offenders, some
considerable modification of the system he had endeavoured to
describe to their Lordships, would be necessary. On that
subject it was inexpedient that they should then enter. It
would be necessary that their Lordships' attention should be
called to it at a very early period, and therefore, for the present,
they might dispense with all reference to that head. What he
had stated applied to the prison discipline which it was pro-
posed to adopt with respect to the male adult convicts. Such
were the measures upon which her Majesty's Government had
come to a general change of policy; he had endeavoured to
describe it as it would be adopted. He had no farther ob-
servations to make, and in conclusion, he would beg their
Lordships to assent to the second reading of the Bill before
them.
Lord BROZIGHAM said that nothing could be more see is.
factory to him than to express his entire approval, and, indeed,
he might say, his admiration of the clear, distinct, and candid
statement made by his Noble Friend who had just sat down.
lie would not then enter upon the large subject opened to the
attention of their Lordships, further than simply to state that
some doubt remained upon his mind with respect to the main
object of the Noble Earl's remarks—the total abolition of
transportation. He came entirely to the same result from an
examination, not only of the evidence, respecting the subject
this Bill referred to, but from a long course of observation and
experience in the public service in that respect, and from exa-
mining with great attention all the high authorities upon that
important branch of criminal jurisprudence. He had come to
the same concluiion, generally speaking, regarding that branch
of penal infliction, that punishment by transportation ought to
cease. Some doubts rested on his mind, which he had some
unwillingness to mention, on this subject, the much-to-be-
lamented father of the Noble Earl, who brought forward this
subject, having been addressed by Archbishop Whateley, in au
able pamphlet, entitled " A Letter to Earl Grey upon the sub-
ject of Transportation, ' and published in 183:e.
He (Lord Brougham) agreed with the opinion ex-
pressed by the Archbishop, with one exception,
namely, he was unwilling to give up transportat ion absolutely
and entirely in all cases. Ile had great doubts if it would be
safe in certain cases—these eases being the exception, and by
no means the rule—that in certain cases of peculiar description
that punishment might advantageously be retained. The great
objection to transportation—politically and economically—was
not the objection to which reference had been made. Ile could
state that in the penal colonies it was not difficult to find a
place in which the sentence might be safely executed. The
great objection was the nature and the incurable inequality of
the punishment. To one person it was a very grave punish-
ment—the greatest punishment, perhaps, next to death. To
other persons it wore a very different aspect—the aspect only
of terror, dislike, and aversion—and, to a third class, it was
really little or no punishment at all. The great
objection to transportation as a suitable punishment
was, that it could not be inflicted in the nature of a
punishment. It was never to be lost sight of, however,
inasmuch as they still considered it as a punishment, and it
might have some effect in deterring by example. The aspect
of a punishment was various to various individuals, and it
might be used for the purpose of deterring some from crime
—as the aspect made so great a difference in its nature.
example. provided even
Capital
in a fe
punishment
casc's it
as to alter it entirely. They were about to abandon transpor-
tation absolutely and altogether, but he was quite certain that
they ought not rashly to give up any means of punishment,
was
they lse yaltlo pkrnoedwu cea
and
dffetcht
thought
sgant
ought to be very sparingly inflicted, and some thought that it
ought to be abolished altogether. lie differed from those per
ons who held the last opinion, and agreed with those who
thought it ought to be sparingly inflicted. Nevertheless lie
could not give up capital punishment as a means of deterring
others, because there might be only three or four periods of the
) ear in which they could find a proper subject to whom the
capital infliction ought to be applied. He would not give up
any punishment, although only applicable to a few instances,
provided it produced a beneficial effect ; and for that reason he
was, upon the whole, doubtful whether they ought to
abandon transportation—not as a punishment to be carried
out upon every offender, but
yet it might be pos-
sible to make it of use in certain cases, although
in a very limited number of instances. He thought
that the objection of the Noble Earl that the punishment was
one of great inequality in its operation, was well founded, but
the few cases to which he alluded, that objection would not
apply. He should not, upon the whole, think it safe to confine
it to persons of an inferior rank of life, bat rather to those of a
superior class. He had reason to think that to persons of that
description, it must be the most awful punishment that could be
inflicted next to death. It might have afforded a strong
example in the case of a malefactor who perished some years
ago for forgery ; that would have been a proper case for the in-
fliction of transportation. A great malefactor had not very
long since been punished by his Noble Friend opposite (Lord
Denman), and to persons of that description and class such a
sentence was next to death. It was the greatest which could
be inflicted upon persons such as the recivers of stolen goods,
who carried on their detestable trade—a trade about which the
law, and the administrators of the law, were universally and
perpetually in conflict. The traffic carried on by these persons
was driven with a certain capital—in fact, they were persons of
no little resources in point of money—they were persons who,
outwardly to the eyes of the world, had a certain standing and
appearance of respectability in society. To such persons it
would almost be as bad as to any person in the highest rank of
life to have denounced against them the sentence of trans-
portation for fourteen years, or for life, for their offences.
These offences were the very " pabulum"—the root—the
source from whence the various depredations committed by
thieves—thieves of all ages and descriptions—sprung. His
Noble Friend, who was in the same profession as himself, must
remember well many cases painful to contemplate, in which he
had seen bankruptcies, and absolute insolvency and
ruin of the respectable trader, from the lacilities of
disposal which these receivers possess without any doubt, and
enabled the servants and apprentices to commit depredations
from week to week upon their employers. He could not help
feeling that for some such culprits as these, to whom that
punishment was a terror, lie should be somewhat reluctant to
F accede to the abandonment of the punishment of transporta-
tion. He had another observation to make with regard to the
Noble Earl's statement, for it contained one point with which
he did not agree, and that was with respect to deportation.
He did not attempt to oppose it, but he would throw out
rather a suggestion for consideration. The first observation of
the Noble Earl on the subject had left him rather in doubt and
difficulty as to the manner of inflicting the sentence of depor-
tation. It appeared that a person, after he had gone over his
term of penal labour, and might be supposed to be nearly, if
not quite, reformed, was to be sent to Australia in an emigrant
ship. They were told that lie was not sent out as a punish-
ment, but in order to remove him from the society he had dis-
graced. If the convict were to be allowed to go voluntarily,
could regardt in no
then he might go whither he would, but if not he could under-
stand that the removal was only to be a part of the
punishment to be inflicted, and that the convict was only
liberated from labour. If the convict were to be told that
the fact was the same, and he had no
juvenile the moment he got out of his term of his penal labour he must
go whether he will or
o offenders
erhsimwoseullfd
have
h e
a e itt e n
other light ; although the language used might not be that ofes s
to
makea
t answer,
command, and although the convict might be told that it was
n
10l
ufbor iast o
vewrn 4d' n
Iwish you would employ it upon your-
.
y,
your-
self, and not upon me.' If they were expected to go as emi-
grants in an emigrant ship, his Noble Friend would find that
they would, probably from their station and manners, be dis-
covered to have been convicts, and they would not be very long
on board before a line would be drawn across the deck—one
side of the ship being
.found for emigrants, and the other for
emigrant convicts. With regard to the system of exile there
could be no doubt about it. He could not conceive it possible
that in the year 1847 they were about to revive and restore
that old abandoned, that entirely abandoned, punishment of
the Scotch law—banishment forth of Scotland, with re-
spect to which Sir George Mackenzi4 had written
nearly one hundred and twenty years ago:—lt was clearing
out their malefactors to send them to their neighbours ; but
play at that Sam©—(A laugtwo could h )—and their neigh-
bours could send over their convicts to this country. Mr.
Alison had also written, about a year ago, upon this ex-
ploded punishment, which was repealed in the reign of George
the Fourth, and which hail long been recorded as a law of
barbarism, and only fit for the infant stages of society. Cer-
tainly they could not avoid calling the plan the punishment of
exile, because they merely said that it was for the good of the
person, whom they did not even allow to choose his place of
residence. As soon as the penal sentence was over—as soon
as the labour was over—the remaining part of the sentence was
to be that he should go abroad. They state it to be no part
of the sentence, and yet it was compulsory upon the criminal,
who was to be compelled to go, and to be told that it was only
to prevent him from offending again. According to that they
might say that the infliction of death might be no part of a
punishment, because it would effectually prevent the prisoner
from offending again.—(A laugh.) They might say to a cri-
minal in his last moments— " It is not a punishment, we are
only going to remove you "—as the surgeon said with regard
to a limb—(Laughter)—" We are only going to remove your
head; it is no punishment. We are only going to remove you
from society, that you are not likely to err again. It is true
we remove you by inflicting a wound, which you are not likely
easily to get over, but we hinder you from again offending."—
(Laughter. ) The same observation would apply to the sys-
tem of compulsory exile. If they were to go away only by
the aid of the Government, they would, in all probability, go
to the nearest place, which was Calais, and th«n they would
perhaps return. Andhow were they to prevent that? A Liverpool
mars might go up to London, and a London man to Liverpool
What would the Custom-house say when they heard the an-
swer to the question of" What cargo have you brought—wheat,
sugar, or cotton ?" The reply would be—" No, no, we have
a cargo of convicts."—( Laughter.) They would be .eked—
" What kind of goods are those ?" And the persons on board
would in the best French they could muster say, " They were
highway robbers, forgers, and perjured persons—people who
have broken all the statutes of the law, but they were all re-
formed.—(Laughter.) He suspected that these kinds of car-
goes would meet with a pretty high prohibitory duty in France.
They would be apt to say that they could not allow them to
come there, and if they were to send them their convicts the
French people would adopt the principle of reciprocity and
would send over all their convicts to this country—( Laughter)
—and that proceeding he did not think likely to increase the
benefit of the entente cordiale.—(Loud laughter. ) Consider-
ing these difficulties he did feel a little astonished at the at-
tempted introduction of an ancient and exploded law. There
was, however, one further consideration, namely, that this
plan could never be adopted or adhered to. He assured them
that it never could be. He did not think that anything so
preposterous would ever be adhered to, as a plan for turning
upon the French shores all our convicts, after a certain
period of labour. In introducing a cargo of such people to
any place, what conversation would take place—for instance,
with the Mayor of Calais they would have to admit what they
were. They would have to say, '‘ These people have com-
mitted various crimes, but they are at present nearly or quite
reformed, and we have just brought them over." The
chaplain of the penitentiary would say, "Oh ! they
are reformed—they are very excellent people, they
are very worthy and good peoples they have
committed robberies and forgeries, but they are
in process of reformation." The Mayor of Calais would ne-
cessarily say, 1' We have here plenty of excellent people
amongst ourselves ; pray keep them, for we do not want them ;
we have plenty of the best people of Europe in every rank of
crime and degree of reformation. We do not want any impor-
tation of worthy and good persons upon our side of the water,
but if you do leave them we shall order—with the view of
keeping up the entente cordiale—some very good people of ours
to be sent to you." That would be one of the effects of intro-
ducing this obsolete penalty of banishment. There was ono
instance of its having been tried of late years, and that was when
one of six Acts was introduced. With the aid of his Noble
Friend opposite, who was then with him in the other House of
Parliament, he had done all he possibly could to prevent it from
passing. They moved heaven and earth to effect their object,
but they were defeated. The principle of that Bill was not so
objectionable as the principle of the present one—it was for the
purpose of sending away political libellers. The people of
France might not object to a political libeller, but they might
object to the carrying over a cargo of ruffians from all parts of
St. Giles's. That Act, however, was never once put in force ; ;
and not one single instance of the prosecution of a political li-

beller occurred under it. The other parts of the statement
made by the Noble Lord were very satisfactory, particularly I
that relating to the improvement of prisons and prison disci-
pline. The improvement of prison discipline would cause con-
siderable expense; but the more they examined the subject
the more they would be of opinion that very considerable and,
he might say, lavish expenditure of the public money would
be required, and better it could not he expended than for the
purpose of providing fit gaols. One of the causes of the want
of good prison discipline was the want of good prisons; and
he hoped much time would not elapse before he would
see a considerable addition to the number of gaols—
each gaol accompanied by the means of proper and
efficient industrial employment, either in the gar-
den or field, prison diseipline could only be
perfected, and the reformatory process could only be completed
by such a plan. If they talked of expense it was a monstrous
absurdity, and grossly inconsistent, for they were daily expend-
ing thousands, and he might say hundreds of thousands on mat-
ters of less importance than the one under consideration. They
were about to abolish tranportation generally, even if
they retained it in the few instances in which he thought
it ought to be retained, and the abolition of it up in the
large scale upon which it had hitherto been conducted,
would place at their disposal 600,0001. per annum—for
the present cost of their penal colonies was actually
600,000/. If they abolished transportation upon the
larger scale, and retained it upon the smaller scale, as
applied to individuals as seldom as possible, they would
retain a large revenue, out of which they could without the
least difficulty construct gaols ; and even penal farms and
gardens, with less expense, than they at present calculated
upon. He was very glad to hear the Noble Earl's accounts
from Gibraltar,—indeed, it exceeded his best expectatiens,—
for he had no idea that anything so good had been effected.
The Noble Earl stated that between 10/. and 12'. was the
annual g in up n the work of one convict at Gibraltar, above
the expense and co,t of his maintenance and clothes ; the ex-
pense of his carriage there being alone excepted. That re-
port was very gratifying.
Earl GREY—That does not include the expense of his
transportation and various other charges.
Lord BROUG HAM—It included his maintenance, clothing,
and lodging ; and above that was earned the sum of 42/. in
four years, from this actual profit of his labour. It was a most
satisfactory result, and he gave his best wishes to the system
which inculcated such industrious habits upon the part of the
prisoners. He had devoted a great portion of his time to this
subject, and he had thought it proper to trouble the House
with these remarks, and, in conclusion, he begged to express
his acquiescence in the Bill proposed by the Noble Earl.
Lord STANLEY said that he was quite aware that there
were many Members in their Lordships' House who were more
competent to address themselves to this question than he was,
but he trusted that, from the position which he had had the
honour of holding, he would be excused if he trespassed for a
short time upon their attention. He was the more anxious to
take this opportunity, because, if he rightly understood his
Noble Friend, this was the last opportunity which was likely
to be affording their Lordships of expressing their opinions
upon the subject. This Bill proposed to substitute a better
system of secondary punishment for that which had hitherto
existed ; but he could not help thinking that her Majesty's
Government, in their efforts to limit the extent of the
evil, had too readily adopted a new principle, and too hastily
departed from a system which appeared to him (Lord Stanley)
most valuable, however subject it might have been to abuses.
He had, at the same time, to express his regret, if he had
correctly interpreted the announcement of the Government, that
this was the last opportunity in which Parliament could interfere,
because, although it was perfectly true that it was competent
for the Governor in authority at the colonies to mitigate the
punishment, although competent for the judges in this country
to pass sentence of imprisonment in lieu of transportation,
and therefore so far to effect an alteration in the penal system,
still, it did appear to him that to introduce these great—these
very extensive—these important, and in his opinion most
doubtful measures, there should have been something more than
a mere announcement of the intentions of the Government, there
ought to have been a something more than a trifling discussion
in this or both Houses of Parliament. Such a measure as this
should not, be carried without the sanction of an Act of Parlia-
ment defining in the clearest manner who were to be the
subjeCts affected by the measure, and the extent
of punishment to be affixed to each degree of crime.
He was afraid that too much haste was not only observable on
this but on all former occasions on which this important ques-
tion had been considered, and he could not help entertaining
the greatest dseibt of the prudence of abrogating altogether the
punishment of transportation. He believed that it was con-
ceded by almost all who had taken the trouble of considering
this subject, that transportation, as a secondary punishment,
impressed the criminal with more terror than any other mode
or degree of punishment. He believed that many of the most
hardened culprits who would hear with perfect indifference a sen-
tence of 18 months' imprisonment, to be afterwards commuted
to labour in public works, would look with very different feel-
ings on a sentence of transportation for a period of 21 or 14, or
even 10 years. lie believed that however faulty in
practice the system at present in existence was, it
capable of being worked advantageously for the pur-
poses of reformation as well as of punishment. The
Noble Lord opposite had correctly stated that in this punish-
ment much depended on the charac' er of the convict himself, and
much on the temper of the master to whom he might have
been assigned, and while to some this would be hardly any
punishment at all, to others it would be a severe one. His
( Lord Stanley's) conviction was, that if after a petiod
punishment by labour in the colonies, there had been the means
of distributing among the scattered population of so large a
continent as that of New South Wales, these labourers—if
facilities had been given for allotting them to free emigrants—
men possessed of property—if there had been proper facilities
given for distributing the convict population, after
they had undergone the severe ordeal of punishment which
Government had commanded—if such facilities had been
given, he believed that great good might have been accom-
plished, and that many and singular advantages would accrue
to the character, the dispositions, and the welfare of the indi-
viduals who had been subjected to that punishment. He re-
gretted to think, that not only were hasty steps taken by the
Committee which sat in 1827, but that still more hasty steps
were taken in 1840, when her Majesty's Government, without
any previous preparation, at once announced that transportation
to New South Wales was immediately to (lease. lie thought
they had then sacrificed a great advantage when they threw
up as a penal settlement a colony large as the continent of
Europe,—a colony to which they might have transported a
great mass of crime, which it was of the first importance
should be sent from their shores. Even his Noble Friend, in
the plan which he that evening submitted ti their Lordships,
admitted the necessity of removing this mass of evil from
their country. He ( Lord Stanley) did not mean to deny
that great and serious inconveniences had arisen to the
colony of Van Dieman's Lind, from the extent to which
transportation had been carried, in consequence of the declare-
fion of Government that New South Wales should no longer
be a penal settlement, and that Van Dieman's Land
should be the only and single point to which that tide
of vice and depravity should flow in future. But this
inconvenience was immediately aggravated by the unfortu-
nate coincidences of the period in which the operation
of the new system was first commenced. At the period when
the new system was first introduced, there was every reason
to believe that as the convicts came out from the first step of
punishment, namely, from the probation gang, they would be
absorbed in the population, and proper and honest labour pro-
cured for them, it was unfortunate that coincident with that
period, trade should be in a most depressed condition, that a
sudden eclipse of that prosperity which had been blown up to
an artificial and premature extent should supervene, and that
those classes who were the employers of labour, were in a con-
dition to do so no longer. Nothing could have happened more
unfortunately for the Government than that the new system
was introduced at this period, yet he (Lord Stanley) was satis-
fied of this, that to a great extent notwithstanding all those
disadvantageous circumstances, the system adopted with trans-
ported convicts had acted beneficially in the case of a great
proportion of those persons who had been subjected to this
punishment. He did not mean for a moment to say, that in
the papers before the House, there were not instances of
horror (which he was glad to find his Noble Friend had not
disgusted their Lordships with)—but those horrors were in the
probation gangs, confined to two or three localities.
Earl GREY—No, no.

Lord STANLEY—It was so, and he affirmed it after a
careful examination of the papers. These acts of horror were
occasioned by the absence of proper superintendence and
watchfulness, and they might by proper superintendence have
been in every instance checked. All precautions having been
inconceivably neglected, it could net be deemed matter of
astonishment, or even of wonder, that such consequences
should have ensued. But let them look to the -especial docu-
ments which treated of the character and conduct and disposi-
tion of the convict population of Van Dieman's Land. He
asked them not to take the authority of the Governor nor of
the comptroller, nor to take the authority of those official
reports which one and all announced a great improvement in
the character and conduct of the convict population. But he
would ask their Lordships to look at a letter which would be
found in those very papers, and which gave the
impressions of the writer with regard to the
general conduct of the convicts in the year 1845,
and again, in 1846, and Mr. Fry, their Lordships would re-
member, was no advocate for the continuance of transporta-
tion, especially for minor offences. His letter would be found
in pages 190 and 191 of the book before their Lordships, and
the statements contained in it were such as ought not to be
overlooked. The Noble Lord then proceeded to read an ex-
tract from the Rev. Mr. Fry's letter, which had appeared in a
colonial paper, to show the great improvement which had taken
place in the moral character of the convict population. The
writer said that the sea-ports of England presented more im-
moral aspects than the towns of the colonies--that the ministers
of religion who had been provided by the Government in 1842,
laboured in extensive congregations, every Protestant family
having their Bibles, and both Protestants and Roman Catholics
delighting in their rzligious elbservances. The tendency of the
whole article was to prove that society in the penal colonies had
greatly improved, and were in course of even greater improve-
ment. Now, this was the article which appeared in one of the
colonial papers, and the same facts were confirmed by another
article, dated in August, 1846, exactly a twelvemonth after the
publication of his first letter. He went on, at a later period,
to state that ho had married upwards of a hundred discharged
convicts in the last year, who were living as happy as any la-
bourers in England. The writer also referred to the working of
c( nditional pardons under the old system. With reference to
the intentions of her Majesty's Government as regarded
conditional pardons, the Government desired to give the go-
vernor power to grant conditional pardons which should extend
over the whole of the penal colonies, so that an emancipated
convict might have the option of a widely evtended country to
settle in. With regard to the punishment, his Noble Friend
and himself appeared to agree on the principle; in fact, he
thought there was no difference in this respect betwean them.
His Noble Friend admitted, in his place, that the same prin-
ciple of punishment should be carried out as that which at
present prevailed in the colonies, namely, the inflicting a
severer degree of punishment in the advanced stages, and in
every successive stage giving greater or less restraint, until by
perseverance and good conduct the convict should emerge
among the free and uncontaminated population ; therefore, as
far as the principle was concerned, there was no difs
ference between them, and he believed that there would be
none with any other of their Lordships. The question, then, the
great question for them was, what kind or degree of punish-
ment would be the best calculated to prevent crime in the first
instance, and restore in the second place the convict to a useful
position in society ? He was afraid that in the vast scale of
offences which were ,now punishable with transportation, the
distinction would be neglected which existed between the
highest and lowest grades of punishment. The offender in the
first instance, would think it a matter of no great importance
whether the minimum sentence of six months, or the maxi-
mum sentence of eighteen months were passed. That differ-
ence would not strike the mind so forcibly as the difference
not
between six months imprisonment and transportation for life.
The fear of transportation was now very strong, even with the
most hardened culprit, and he doubted that if they substituted
imprisonment fur some months to be followed by emigration,
yi
countryn g out
wpal s
8, u ir f e
i t
would were
aleni
consti-
tute something to look forward to, and hope for.
calculated]
He admitted without hesitation, that the question of expense
onlywith
ceaset their r wivesto
be anda matterchildren,
of
dread,th e
punishment
bnt
actually would
was in this case a minor and subordinate matter ; and what-
evcarrying
not object to a slight additional expenditure of one, two, or
three hundred thousand pounds. Hut Government would be
subjected to great difficulty in the first application of their
ge
t beo d thei i
mne
i expense e
crime,
m oe f ,
s
plan. That would necessarily be the effect of abandoning the
of transportation. He believed the male portion of
he population now sentenced to transportation amounted an.

ninny to 4,000 ; so that Government would have to provide )1
accommodation in prisons of the character of Pentonville and
Parkhurst, (or an additional 4,000 prisoners in each successive
year. Four thousand would be the average number of persons
to be provided for at one time, and of course the
expense of the system would be very considerable.
But that was not all. At the expiration of the preliminary im-
prisonment, the prisoner was to pass to employment upon the
public works. It would be remembered that he had asked the
question what was to be the period of that employment, and the
Noble Lord opposite answered, about half the period of
transportation. Now, assuming that the term of ten years was
the average transportation, that. would give five years employ-
ment upon the public works, and he calculated that under this
system there would be 20,000 convicts permanently employed
upon the public works. He ventured therefore to say, that it
was impossible to carry the system into effect. It would seri-
ously interfere with the demand for ordinary labour, and lead to
great difficulties and dissenting. At the expiration of the sen-
tence, the convict was to be sent as a free emigrant, and
free labourer to some foreign port, and if this part of the plan
were to be carried out, it woul I inflict the 'erossest injustice
upon the good portion of the population. Why how could
such a plan be tolerated? Government were preparing to
give to the convicted criminal, what hundreds and thou-ands
of the honest portion of the population were begging for, but
which could not, from motives of economy, be possibly granted.
But let them look a little further into this question of emigra-
tion, as it was proposed to be carried out by the Government.
They already had some experience of the fselings, with which
the different colonies of this empire regarded the presence of
convicts. He would not assume, as was assumed by his Noble
and Learned Friend, that it was the intention of Government
to send these convicts to France, or any other foreign
country, but of this there could be no doubt that they would
be furnished with the means to enable themselves and their
f to emigrate. New. where were they to go to ? Was
it to be left to the convict himself, or were they to be sent to
some one of the British colonies, under the control, and at
the expense of the State? When they arrived in the colonies,
were they always to be free, and subject to no control? His
Noble Friend at the head of the Colonial Department, must
not deceive him.elf with the idea that the character and con-
' dition of these convicts would be greatly improved under such
an emigration system. They could not be sent out by driblets
of three's and four's at the time ; and if every emigrant ship
were allowed to carry a considerable portion of
convicts without previous notice, a fraud would be•
committed upon the good and honest emigrant.
Under such a system, there would be a separation between the
convict and the emigrant in the very emigrant ship, while
upon their arrival in the colonies, there would he a marked dis-
tinction apparent to every man between the treatment of the
convict sent out at the public expense and the emigrant, whose
name and character had been untainted by crime. During the
time he hail the honour of being at the head of the Colonial-
office he was most anxious to promote the success of an experi-
ment upon a small scale for sending out to some colony a limited
number of the most reformed convicts. With the greatest
difficulty, the colony or district of Port Philip was got to con-
sent to receive them, amounting in the whole to fifty ; but
this experiment was made the subject of the greatest possible
complaint, and petitions poured in from every British colony,
praying that they might not be subjected to the
contamination of these convicts. Government had already
pledged itself that New South Wales should sin longer be a
convict colony, and he wanted to ask the Noble Lord if they
would be keeping faith with New South Wales if they allowed
convicts to emigrate to that colony strider this new plan? Cer-
tainly they would be keeping promise to the ear but not to the
sense, because the convicts were not to be transported in the
first instance. But he wanted to know where these convicts
were to be sent? Ne doubt they would he glad to go to Canada
or New York ; but did Government suppose that Canada would
consent to be a receptacle of their convicts. By their prelimi-
nary system, Government would involve themselves in consider-
able expense, while, with some trifling additional expense, and a
little better management, they might greatly improve the existing
system in the colonies. The system of employing convicts.
upon public works must break down, as it ought, the plan of
emigration would operate unjustly, and be was therefore,
strongly disposed to improve the existing system, by
enabling the more reformed of the convicts in the penal settle-
ments to emigrate to neighbouring colonies in bodies of three
and four at a time. He had taken the liberty of saying thus
much, although he was quite aware that there were many of
their Lordships more competent than he was to speak upon
this subject, because they had had more experience than him-
self, but, considering the hasty and ex'ensive change that was
now proposed to be made in the criminal code of this country
—a change too summary to admit of its being carried into
beneficial operation—entertaining great doubts whether the
system was not, in point of fact impracticable—whether it
would lead to great advantage, or whether it would not be at-
tended with similar abuses to those of the present system—he
had taken the liberty to submit to their Lordships the doubts
he entertained upon the subject, to express his earnest hope,
that Government would take no immediate step in the matter
without Parliament and the people had had the fullest oppor-
tunity of considering the question, and expressing their opinion
upon it.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord DENMAN was rejoiced to hear the question so sin•
cerely and ably discussed by both sides of their Lordships'
House, while he was extremely gratified t, learn that Norfolk
I-land, as a penal settlement, was to be entirely broken up.
The terror, however, of transportation ought not to be wiih-
drawn from the minds of the people, and he must, therefore,
own that he viewed with dismay the proposal for altogether
abandoning that mode of punishing offenders. It would have
a dangerous effect upon a vast portion of the criminal popula-
tion of the country, who were constantly being ins•ructed in
the arts of crime, who were leagued together, were connected
with large capitalists and well-constructed associations, to tell
them that, however great the crime they might commit, they
should not be transported. He did believe that the fear of the
punishment of transportation had a great effect in deterring
some people from committing crime, and, from ex-
perience, he could state that he had seen instances
where the terror of transportation was quite over.
what-fling. But there was one fact which Noble Lords
seemed to have lost sight of, namely the importance of remov-
ing criminals of wealth and ability from all communication with
those whom they had been employing day after day for pur-
poses of crime. The receiver of stolen goods was perfectly
respectable in general appearances, in his conduct he seemed
exemplary—paid his tradesman's bills regularly every week—
was considered a great benefactor in the neighbourhood in
which he lived, and hence he could always secure a retinue of
witnesses to speak to his character. Now, if they did away
with transportation, there was no punishment which could be
effectually inflicted upon such a man, and the crime of receiv-
ing stolen goods would be greatly increased.—( Hear,
hear.) Criminals could not always be imprisoned in
this country, because they would always find some
means of communication with their friends and relations, and
the result would be. that some false public sympathy would
be continually excited on their behalf. Criminals could not
be employed in this country on public works, as they were
at Marseilles. The people would not consent to have such a
spectacle continuously before their eyes. Besides, it was ex-
ceedingly dangerous to say to the criminal, that, in the event
of his behaving himself well, his term of imprisonment
would be confined to eighteen months' confinement, and
then he would be sent abroad at the public expense.
It was well known that the worst criminals were
generally the best-behaved in prison, and the reason
was obvious. They were cunning designing fellows, and
they knew that it served their turn to behave well.
There was one point to which he wished to call the attention
of their Lordships. If a man was condemned to death under
the present law, and if, in consequence of some doubt enter-
, twined on the case, a compromise was made with him, and he
was told that if he submitted to be transported for life, the
sentence would not be executed—if he chose after that to
return to this country the sentence of death might be executed
on him. But in the change proposed by the Noble Earl if
the criminal returned after his banishment, they would be then
obliged to transport him again, so that the whole difficulty re-
turned, and he believed that the power of transportation must
be to some extent still retained. There was another
point, also, the consideration of which filled him with some
degree of pain. If this country found that transportation was
done away with, he was apprehensive that a greater desire
would be excited to recur to capital punishment than at pre-
sent existed in this country. If this should result from the
contemplated change, he was bound to say that, in his opinion,
it would be regarded with great aversion ; but if people found
that the punishment proposed to be, substituted for the former
system of transportation failed in repressing crime to the same
extent as it did, it was to be feared that the effect which he
anticipated would result. lie then held in his hand a petition
against capital punishment; and it was well known that the
public mind was running strongly in that direction ; but if
anything occurred from the proposed change to increase the
amount of crime, the consequences to which he referred
would be likely to follow. He did not think it right
as the subject had been brought before the House, to be quite
silent on it, but he was of opinion that it would be much better
to proceed by Act of Parliament, in making any changes on
the system at present adopted. He had no objection to the
Government endeavouring to diminish the number of trans-
ports, and improving the discipline pursued in the place to
which they were transported ; but such large changes as those
; contemplated should, in his opinion, be made with the greatest
caution and deliberation. _

The Duke of RICHMOND considered that the greatest
danger would arise to the peace and to the security of life and
property in this country, if it once went abroad that transpor-
tation was to cease to be a punishment of crime. If three or
four thousand people were to be confined in future in the gaols
of this country, he hoped they would not attempt to introduce
such a system till they had the gaols ready for their
reception. Besides, he did think, with regard to the change,
that the term of 18 months of solitary confinement was by far
too long, and he thought they should have an opportunity of
being taught trades, and of taking exercise in the open air
during the period of their confinement. With regard to em-
ploying the prisoners am public works, as proposed by the Noble
Earl, he could not approve of that, as he considered transport-
ing them beyond the seas was one of the strongest restraints in
crime. Banishment from their own country operated, he be-
lieved, as a most powerful preventive, and the most abandoned
criminal was not unfrequently most strongly attached to his
wife and children, and native land. He hoped, therefore, the
Noble Earl would take the advice of his Noble Friend the Lord
Chief Justice of the Court of Queen's Bench, and instead of
proceeding on so large a scale as he proposed, to endeavour to
try what could be done, first by diminishing the number of
transports, and in any case, by proceeding by Act of Parlia-
ment. He thought, however, that the system of Pentonville
prison had not been sufficiently tried. With regard to the
hulk system, he did not think that it was possible to maintain
good prison discipline there. They put too many prisoners
together. He was glad that the prison inspectors of Millbank
were to be removed. They should have been employed in
visiting the various prisons throughout the different cr unties,
with a view to get a more uniform system adopted throughout
the country---the business for which they were originally
ap-
pointed.
Earl GREY said that after the observations of the three Noble
Lords who had just addressed the House, he wished to make a
few remarks, which he would do as briefly as possible. It had
been observed, and an opinion was strongly expressed by the
Noble Lord opposite ( Stanley) and also, he believed, by his
Noble Friend behind him (Lord Denman) that the change
proposed by Her Alajestv's Government ought not to be carried
into effect without an Act of Parliament. He agreed that an
Act of Parliament would be ultimately necessary if these
changes were considered beneficial, and he intended to state
that in the course of his speech, but the magnitude of the
subject prevented him. Now, by the existing law, the punish.
ment of transportation could be commuted, and as they consi•
dered that the present law was sufficient to enable them to
carry out the proposed plan, they did not consider it
necessary to require, at present, a special Act of
Parliament, the more especially as the system to
be introduced was merely experimental. Until the
change was fully tried and sanctioned by experience, they did
not propose to apply for an Act of Parliament. They at
present commuted the sentence in regard to criminals, from
transportation to Van Dieman's Land, to sending them to work
on the public works in Gibraltar, at Bermuda, the hulks,
Pentonville, and Millbank, and the system now proposed was the
same there, but on a larger scale. The meaning of seven
years' transportation was understood and acted upon, as four
years' imprisonment in these places now mentioned, till the
Noble Lord (Stanley), in 1843, sent the criminals abroad
on a large scale. Until the advantage of the experiment,
therefore. was confirmed by the experience they hed of it,
operation, it was Dui intended 10 zppiy to 13:Ai:anent on the
subject. Besides, according to the 01,itlion of Mr. Denison, '
who had just gone out there as governor, and, indeed, of every
one who knew anything about the colonies, it was impossible
to send convicts out there at present. His /Noble Friend also

spoke of the great accumulation of criminals in this country
which the plan proposed would cause; but with reference to
that he would ask, was not the facility of controlling them
greater at home aan abroad, where they wou:d be under the
immediate eye of the Government? He also expressed a fear se
to the propriety of interfering with the system of
assignment, but it was well known that that vras a most horrid
system, and in the great majority of cases the parties stood in
the same relation to each other as in a state of sltvery. In the
evidence taken before the Committee on this subject, over
which Sir William Molesworth presided, it was shown that the
condition of the convicts was most degrading and demoralizing:
They were told besides that if the system proposed were carried
change
would be extremely injurious, and there would be no longer_
any safety for society. His Noble and Learned Friend ( Lord
Denman) also adduced the case of a wealthy receiver of stol en
property, whose punishment in case of conviction wouweverld
be evaded. Did the Noble Lord know, ho,
what had happened under the late system of trans
portation? If not he (Earl Grey) would tell hits.
A receiver of *Wen goods of enormous wealth had been con'
victed some time since, and sentenced to be transported. 11,
managed to evade the law as to forfeiture of the pro Peril
of felons, and brought it with him to New South Wt__:l'
When he arrived there he got himself assigned, and in a '11"
time was as well off under this system of assignment as ores
he was in the city of London.—(Laughter.)
Lord STANLEY—That could net be done now.
Earl GREY only adduced the case to show that the late
system was one which was very susceptible of improvement;
Under the existing system of transportation, a man sentenced
to fourteen years was sent to Van Dieman's Land, and put into
a penal gang. and if he exhibited good conduct, after a perm*
of eight years he got a conditional pardon, which made bit
free, except that he must not return to England, although
he might go to India, China, or other countries. Under the
system proposed, instead of being sent to Van Dieman's La HQ
nd'
the offender was immediately to be put into Pentonville.
was not sent into a penal gang, where little or no discipline
was maintained, but he was placed in separate confinement', •
with discipline so severe, that the Noble Duke (the Duke et
Richmond) said eighteen, months' continuance of it was almost
too much for human nature ; and at the end of that period be
was removed into penal labour on the public works. There
wee, therefore, penal labour under both systems, but the
difference consisted in this, that under the propose&
system the offender would be put under an inirnediats
and effective system of discipline. But then, after a certain
time, the criminal should be sent out to Van Dieman's Land,
where he would find himself in the same condition as though
he had begun to bear his punishment in Australia, for he would
receive a conditional pardon, and at the end of the time would
be discharged free in that country, as under the system at pre"
sent existing. He had always admitted that transportation, se.
far as it provided a refuge for the offender after his penal period
was at an end, was of the greatest possible use, for a new colon,'
offered an opportunity which could not be found in the mother
country. But his Noble Friend opposite had said that the
evils resulting to the colonies from the old system of trenspnr•
tation might have been prevented if the most common precav
tions had been taken. But he ( Earl Grey) asked how it eagle
to pass that the evil results of that neglect had grown and co'
tinued for a term of six years? Why, mach a state of things would
not have existed for six months in this country, where public
opinion would not have permitted it to continue; and that, no
doubt was an advantage to be derived from the system pro-
posed to be adopted, that their officers were under immediate
and strict surveillance, that evils could be instantly checked
and results modified. For it was not the rules which they
might have upon paper which affected the system as it existed,
which would always be guided by the rules that were actually
in force. His Noble Friend had very good rules drawn oat for
the regulation of the penal colony, but where was the greet
which they produced ? But it was urged by the Noble Duke
that a system of penal laboue would not be tolerated by a fre°
people. He (Earl Grey) asked whether that could be all
argument in favour of transportation ? For if England would
not bear that which was for their own advantage, could the'
expect that a small community in Van Dieman's Land would
bear it ? Were they now to treat the colonies thus, vrhe°
Englishmen more and more felt the necessity of having these
institutions under which they had been trained. The rim
had come when these institutions must be introduced into ell
their colonies, and he trusted in the present session to bring
in a measure to that effect. The time was come when the
advantage of representative Government must be granted to
Australia. The Noble Duke hail said that exile from their as'
tive land and their families was felt by cffenders as a serer!
punishment and a great trial. He (Earl Grey) urns ne'
of opinion that these sacred ties of human nature ought to be
made a means of punishment. It was certain that the hal+
tuated criminal possessed few of these finer feelings of het"'
nity. It was also certain that the professional offender
had but few family ties to attach him anywhere
and it was only the man who had been betrayed iOlO
the first beginnings of crime that would feel a, the
Noble Duke had described. If, however, it appeared proper,t°
them ever to use this as a means of punishment, they had
power of doing so while the prisoner was at Pentonville le
Portland, by excluding for a longer or shorter period all cow
munication with their friends or families. In thed
old days of tr nsportation, he said they used to ee,e,
out the wife of the family with the offender, bet te...1"
custom was discontinued, with the most pernieleir
effects. The Government intended, therefore, .ca
send out the wife and family after a certain period of
offender's punishment had been endured, and he anticipa t
that these intentions of the Government being carried ,e
with proper precaution would be beneficial even to the colon'ie-eg:
i''
In fact, there was a demand in some of the colonies for ex
but for those who were not hardened, and corrupted, and 11,
less, such as were sent before. It had been objected t
this new system would necessitate a large expenditure wt
those persons. Now, the fact was, if they sen
them to the colonies, provision must be made for them there`
whether, therefore, at home or abroad, provision must be Sc:,,
ready; and, indeed, Portland would be in a state of readinel
very soon, for the reception of prisoners. The Noble E't
concluded by expressing his hope that the proposed systera
would tend to diminish crime, and reform the offenders. e
Lord DENMAN rose to explain. He said he did not
wish to be misunderstood by their Lordships, and especial:l
the Noble Earl who had just sat down. When it was said UPI
when a man was sentenced to seven years' transportation sn"
was sent to the hulks for four years, he did not hesitate to ell
that in the hulks the man, for anything any one knew, we' Ls'
his way to the colonies, and it appertained to the agent' of 1'"
Crown to pardon him at the end of four years. But to change
the nature of the punishment pronounced upon him was 0°:
legal, and it was not competent for them to do so except by A`"
of Parliament passed for the purpose. He would not be 00'
derstood as defending the system of transportation in existences
In his opinion it was an abominable practice.
After a few words from the Marquis of S ALISBURT across
the table, the Bills were then read a second time.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 5.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
Papers from the Poor-law Commissioners were pre-
sented. gals
The second reading of the Leominster Canal '-
Navigation Bill was postponed for a week.
SECOND READINGS.
The following Bills were read ts second time, so
ordered to be committed:—

Belfast Port and Harbour.
Cambridge, St., Neot'e, and Bedford Junction RailwaY%
East Lancashire Railway (Clitheroe, Mitton, and Pa
fil'
ham, Branches).
Edinburgh and Northern Railway (St. Andrew's a
d
Newburgh Harbour, Branches, and Road Crosing''
Newport Railws.y Extension). at
Great Northern Railway (Branch to Horncastle and
Bray ford Mere, Lincoln).
London and North-Western Railway (Lime-street
Liverpool, Station Extension, &c.)
London and North-Western Railway (Portobello 10
- -

Wolverhampton Branch, &c.) - -
Newcastle and Berwick Railway (Cramlington and per

Main, and Killingworth and other Branches).
Taw Vale RAway and Dock.
York and Newcastle Railway (Hartlepool Dock and gt„ii.
way, and Great North of England, Clarence, and 11'.
tlepool Junction Railway, Lease and Purchase). Ups
THE LONDON SEW H AGE Ch MAO')
COAIPANY. lab
Sir DE LACY EVANS brought in this Bill, wb
was read a first time.

lie of