The Sun.
London, England, 1840-06-17 00:00:00

was no doubt in his mind but the judgment of the House
had hitherto been most unwarrantably, most unjustifiably,
and most mischievously disregarded; but he would not be
the person► to undertake to say, that after the question had
been definitively settled by Parliament,, the General As-
sembly would hot submit to an Act declaring the law.
The case appeared to him to be undoubtedly an urgent
one, and he should like to know what course the Noble
Viscount opposite proposed to pursue with regard to it.
The Noble Viscount had lately given him (the Earl of
Aberdeen) notice, that he meant to object to the further
progress of the Bill. On what grounds he proposed to du
so, he (the Earl of Aberdeen) could not conjecture.
He would, therefore, request the Noble Viscount
not to exercise, on that occasion, his power of
following his own judgment en the matter
without condescending to assign the reasons which actuated
him. Let him, if he pleased, say with the Noble and
Learned Lord opposite, (Lord Brougham), that before
they introduced a new measure, they should make the
existing law be obeyed ; let him say that he did not ap.
prove of any thing which had been hitherto done in the
case, but let him at all events clearly state his sentiments.
—( Hear, hear.) He believed he could partly collect the
opinions of the NoLl.; Viscount from a pamphlet which had
been published by the advocates of the veto, in which they
stated that during au interview which they had with the
Noble Viscount, he had said that the Government could
not undertake to introduce any measure on the subject, as
they could not propose one which would satisfy the House
of Lords, and they would therefore postpone taking any
steps in the case till a more favourable opportunity might
arrive. He (the Earl of Aberdeen) did not, however, see
how the Noble Viscount could entertain such apprehena
sions as those stated. For his own part, he could
assure the Noble Viscount that he had never looked on
the question as a party question, and he would be ready
to support any measure introduced by the Noble Viscount
which might not be inconsistent with the law of the lands
and the established constitution of the Church. -.4 Hear:,
Lord MELBOURNE did not recollect having use4the
words that had been attributed to him.
The Earl of ABERDEEN said that ib another portion
of the Report of that Committee they mentioned that in
their interview with Lord Melbourne, the Noble Lord bad
expressed his strong sense of the importance of the ques-
tion, and his earnest desire to see it settled. He stated,
according to them, his own preference of the measure pro..
posed by the Committee—that was the veto.—( Hier.) He
(the Earl of Aberdeen) would, however, fairly tell the
Noble Vi;count that he did not believe that, because in
their trans,:etions with himself they had shown themselves
so unserupulous—( Hear, and a laugh)—that he did not
mean to say that they had dealt more honestly with the
Noble Viscount.—(Laughter.)

Lord MELBOURNE
The Earl of ABERDEEN continued. Either the Noble
Viscount ltd expressed his approbation of the veto, or he
had not. If he approved of it, let him say so ; but if
he did not approve of it, the Committee which he
had referred to had stated that which was not true.
The Noble Viscount should do something, far he had de_
Oared that the interference of the Legislature would be
necessary on the subject. The Noble Viscount could not
intend to continue on that Bench, and to chuckle inwardly
—( Hear, hear)—at the confusion and destruction which
preva.led in Scotland, and which were sure, if not imme-
diately put an end to, to become worse ; be could not ex-
claim " havoc, and spoil, and ruin are my gain." He
could not but see the necessity of settling the question in
some way. He (the Eall of Aberdeen) tendered a meta
sure on the subject, and submitted that measure to their
Lordships without the slightest party feeling, or without
any other view than to bring those unfortunate disputes to
a conclusion. If nothing whatever were done in the mat-
ter, he wou'd tell the Noble' Viscount that a sch:.stat would
take place in the Scottish Church ; for a large body of
Ministers would in that case announce their determination
not to obey the orders of the General Assembly.—( Heart
hear.) The Noble Earl concluded by proposing the ee.
cond reading of the Bill.
The Marquis of BRE' ADA LBANE said that in his
opinion the Bill of the Noble Earl would prove as unsatis-
factory to the people of Scotland as to the General As-
semble. lie could not, therefore, help entreating their
Lordships to pause before they consented to proceed fur-
ther with the measure. He would readily bear his test,
moray to the singleness of purpose of the Noble Ear), -end
the pu. itv of his intentions—( Hear. hear)—but he .could
still say that while the Noble Earl had riven his assent to
the principle cf non-intrusion, aid while he admitted the
fundamental principles of the Presbyterian Church, there
was -in the application of those pr.lnelples a fundamental
difference between them. He believed that he differed
also with the General Assembly, when the% had ccme to
certain resolutions in opposition to the Bill. He was
persuaded that unless their Lordships went to the root of
the evil, and unless they did that which was really iu ace
cordonce with the true principles of the Presbyterian
Church, they would only create further dissatisfaction.
He would not enter into the law of the ease, but he should
certainly say that great evils existed at present in the
Scottish Church—evils, however, which had taken their
rise in tie zeal and sincerity of the members of that
Church, and from their desire to preserve their prine:r_
pies in their integrity, and to do that which would be ac-
up6ble to the general feelings and opinions of the peoieie
of Scotland—namely, to apply the principle of non-intrusion
to the induction of ministers in the parishes of that
country. The Church of Scotland had certainly involved
' herself in difficulties with the Courts cf Law, but that
Church considered the question as a merely spiritual one,
and they claimed no jurisdiction except iu spiritual matters.
The principles of the Church of Scotland were essentially
popular, and its members did not, like those of the Church
of England, acknowledge the Crown as their head. To
those principles be, at a Presbyterian, could not but we-
sent. He felt it his duty solemnly to ask their Lordships
not to proceed rashly with the important qucst,:ort then
under their coasideration, and not tightly to adopt what be
considered would be "a heavy 'Glow and a great discourage-
ment" to the Scottish Chun
—( Hear, and st laugh.) By
proceeding violently they might have in Scotland a Church
established by law, but they would not have a Church
estabishrel in the hearts and affections of the people. He
could implore their Lordships not to proceed hastily with
the measure, without being cognisant of all its details ;
and he would, above all, appeal to these holy Lords, sit-
ting on that (the Episcopal) bench, to aid the clergy of
the Scottish Church in their endeavours to maintain what
they considered the principles of their faith. The civil
power was, they considered, entrenching on their rights;
that power might, in the same manner, entrench one dey
on the principles of the Right Rev. Prelates near hint.
`The Noble Marquis concluded by moving that the Bill
should be read a secAmd time or. that day six months.
The Earl of ROSEBERY, though not hitnself a mere.
her of the Scottish Church, wished to address a few
words to their Lordships, on a subject which so deeply
concerned that portion of the kingdom to which he pecu-
lit rly belonged. He was himself e member of the Chutch of
England, but he certainly thought that the professors of
the Presbyterian creed were as much a branch of the true
Church, as that which he belonged,—( Hear, hear.)
Some might consider that as a latitudinarian principle,
but it was nevertheless one which he sincerely held.
Ho (the Earl of Rosebery) claimed for the Church of
Scotland full jurisdiction over spiritual matters, and he
thought that included what referred to ordination ; and
without defending what had been said on one side or the
other, he thought the Church of Scotland was right in
maintaining what lie considered a fundamental principle,
He admitted that the Noble Earl was the most qualified,
by many circumstances, to bring forward this measure;
but his (the Earl of Rosehery's) delibeeate opinion was,
that if the Bill passed, there was not the slightest chance
of it answering its ebjects, and inetead of removing doubts
it would increase them,
The Earl of CA NI PK RDOWN said that he had been
much dhpoeed to support the Bill, in the principle of
which he could not help concurring, though he could never
assent to giving every individual a right to object to the
clergyman, and so far from the Bill limiting, it greatly ha-
creased the powers of church-goers. But his objection
to the Bill was this, that it professed to re
move doubts in the law. His opinion was, that
there were no such doubts existing—that the law had been
declared already by the highest authorities—that no rea-
sonable man could for a moment doubt that after hearing
the lucid judgments of Lord Brougham and the Lord
Chancellor—that the law was against the Assembly—that
the Assembly had already refused to obey the law, and
that therefore it could not be expected that they would any
more obey a fresh law, and that therefore it could not he
right to attempt by new legislation to settle the question
until the Assembly had retracted their illegal decision,
and in the meantime he trusted to the Courts of Law to
maintain their authority. For these reasons be should
most reluctantly be compelled to vote for the amendment,
and b.! considered that the whole responsibility lay w:tli
the Assembly, who had been the first aggrr.:ssors by an
unlawful attack on the rights of the nation. '
The Earl of DALHOUSIE hoped that as an honest
member of the Church of Scotland, their Lordships would
allow him to state his reason for S'apporting the bill of the
Noble Earl. It was true the veto law was not the ques-
tion before the House, but it would have an injurious effect
in Scotland t ,le. Qr,
'l'-- --- eente. answer were made to the state-
ments of the Noble Marquis on this subject. The Noble
Marquis said the Generat Assembly, in acting as they had
done, had done no more than their duty. Now he took
th.e liberty of stating that this principle of non-intrusion,
as it was called, that was of absolute rejection by the
people, was not a fundamental principle of the Church ot
Scotland.—( Hear, hear.) This he would prove by tire
Second Book of Discipline, and he would prove it
also by the practice of every Church in Scotland. He would
take the case of Geneva, the mother Church of the Cnurch
of Scotland, and give them the authorities of Ca.;viii and
Bert on the subject.—( The Noble Earl then rear', some quo-
Ra
ncdf o r
provemere..
) He would
his assertion
tt ah teilfim
es
ofmr oem t
jt h eo
u'ier ot.ok‘:.n of
country,these
from ttie Bock of Discipline and the words of
Knee,—(The Noble Earl then read several passages
from the Book of Discipline and the works of Knox, Col_
wood,
and Melville in support of his opinion.) He would
ask if any man, after them authorities, could doubt what.
bad ever been the
practice of the Scotch Church, or that
the Presbytery had not the power of deciding upon the
71(teli congregationearbear.) The
dis-
validityoi fivoayeetionsto major aprpaesret of
presentee._
_(Hear,
, if the
rented, the Presbytery was to stop proceedings and inquire,
and if the minor part only dissented the Presbytery were
to go on. This was just. Nothing more was heard of
this question until after the Revolution, when, if they
chose, they might have established this principle; but they
did no such thing, and had done no such thing up to
the present time. The power of absolute rejection bad
never been claimed by the people from the earliest ages of
the Church of Scotland. The ground on which the Noble
Marquis founded his amendment was a fallacious one. He
believed that the claim now Set up was most mischievous