The Sun.
London, England, 1823-04-23 00:00:00

II SHERIFF Jy.I.I.ILJN.

Mr. ELLS stated that be held in his hand a petition from
the High Sheriff and the late Grand Jury of the City of Dublin,
Which asserted that the petitioners, on hearing the charges
brought against them had repaired to London, and prayed for
• inquiry in such a way as she House would please to direct,—
'ey were now not only in London, but in attendancuon the
House.—(Hear, hear I)—tie did • not wish to anticipate any
part of the debate upon the motion of the lion. Member who
bad given notice (Sir F. Buxdett), and he would, therefore,
content himself With moving now that the petition be read.
Mr, PLUNKETT asked whether he was to understand that
.the whole of the Grand Jury was in attendance ? •
Mr. E GUS said the Petition was s*ned by. the Foreman,
anti that six of the Grand .fury, deputed by their fellows, now
waited with the Sheriff the:pleasureof the.HouSe.
Mr. BROUGHAM observed that a notice of motion con-
eerning the conduct or character of persons appearing on the
votes of the House could alone be a regular ground of a peti.
ilea such as the present. No person,. as was obvious to every
Member, had a right to take, notice of any reflection made In
that House on his conduct in this way, if conveyed through
any other medium than that of the votes. l{e'could not, as
one of the persons who promoted the motion which was to be
discussed that night, avoid, in fairness, to observe upon the
alacrity which the accused had ahewn to meet the charges—a
readiness of which they ought to have the benefit during the
inquiry, whatever might be the result--(Hear, hear !)—The
Petition was ordeted to be printed.
VONDUCT OF THE IJTGII SHERIFF OF DUBLIN

AND 'THE GRAND „JURY.
Sir F. BunDErr said, he rase in consequence of the notice
he had given on a former evening e That notice naturally grew
out of the manner in which the question discussed onthe night
he gave it had been treated by the Right Hon. Gentleman op.
rmite (Mr. Plunkett). The House must have witnessed upon
otter occasions, how painful it was to touch upon any subject
.connected with the troubles and misfortunes of Ireland ; they
must have seen that the state of the country was such as to reit-
-der it almost impossible to mention any subject connected with
it without giving rise to expressions Of an irritating nature. It
'was, however; necessary for the House to enter into such ills.
-cussions ; and it was equally necessary that they should endeavour
to find out some means ofalleviating those evils and dissentions
!with which the country had been so long afflicted. Not only
was this necessary for the prosperity of Ireland, but as an im-
portant part of the Empre, the peace, happiness; and prosperity
,of England, depended in a great degree on putting an end to a
state of thir.gs which was little better than smothered civil war.
This being the case, it being difficult upon such topics to avoid
:angry discuuion ,lie should have been particularlyready to meetthe
4whilies expressed on the opposite side of the House, if he thought
-any palliative was likely to be soon found for the existing evils.
jle would be the last person in the world not to wish that a
veil oblivion should be thrown over every topic likely to excite
irritation. They could knot shut their eyes to the evils that
afflicted Ireland, nor their ears to the complaints of the people.
They would therefore only imitate the foolish superstition of
those who avoided whistling lest they might increase the storm,

if they were to be silent from an apprehension of giving rise to
angry feeling. They were on the eve of a necessity which must
soon bring on a full and complete inquiry into the state of that
country. He was anxious to use no language which could irritate
any party, as Ito shew no partiality to one or the other. This' the
matter at issue might by some be considered in - the light of a
contest between the Attorney.4eneral and the High Sheriff, one
entrusted with the power of proceeding by ex-OMo information,
and employing that power as some thought improperly, these
circumstances, either upon the present or the former occasion,
formed no part of his consideration. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man (Mr. Plunkett) however holding so high a situation, and
in that capacity having brought forward a charge of the most
grave nature against a person as high as himself in a constitutional
point of view, it was impossible under these circumstances that
the House could fulfil the inquisitorial functions with which it
was vested if it refused to concede to his motion. The more he
considered the subject the more he felt convinced that they
could not properly have come to a decisive vote when last the
question was before them. Hostile as his feelings were to ex-
(Side informations, it appeared to him at first peculiarly hard
that such a mode of proceeding should be had recourse to
after a bill of indictment had been thrown out by the Grand
Jury. It appeared like a case of oppression; and lie same
into the Howie with that feeling when' the matter was to be
discussed on a former occasion. But the statement of the
Attorney-General for Ireland, produced a different feeling ;
and. the. Learned Gentleman appeared to him to haie made
out a case that justified the use of such an extraordinary
exertion of his official duties. For this "reason he could-not
concur in a vote of censure, particularly when be recollected
that this power was employed to resist the oppression of the
people, and used against those who, having power, were
disposed to use it against the people. So far, therefore, from
considering it an act of oppression, first to send up to a
Grand Jury a bill of indictment, and when that was thrown
out to proceed by cx-ofpio information, he was now satisfied
that the Attorney-General could not have proceeded in a way
More favourable to The parties accused. He first preferred
his bill, and it was only when he foetid the ordinary course of
justice to be obstructed that he filed an ect-Vicio information.
He wished every Attorney-Gerieral in this country would follow
the example—would first prefer a bill of indictment ; and if
that was thrown out. then be left to his own discretion whether
or not he should prosecute the matter further. Persons might
take it as a hardship to be charged a second time. To be tried
a second time was a herdship, but not to be charged. If the
charge were groundless, it was for the advantage of the accused
that the matter. should .be brought before a Grand Jury and
thrown out; for then, if the Attorney-General, from irritation
or ill feeling, proceeded further, the person would come into
Court under inure favourable circumstances. The parties here,
therefore, had no reason to complain. The wisdom of ex-officio
informations was another question, and he wished the Muse
would inquire into so important a subject. He hardly ever re-
collected a case where they could be justified but this. Writers
on the subject always gave extreme cases to warrant the exer-
cise of such a power. Blackstone, who, with respect to the Con.
stitution, seemed to think, like some writers on natural history,
that whatever is is right, only justified it in extreme cases of
urgent necessity, such as danger to the Constitution or the
life of the King so imminent as not to admit of delay. Was
it in this way, or upon such urgent grounds, they saw It lately
exercised ? No. It was had recourse to upon every occasion,
and had been made a constant source of oppression to the sub-
ject. There were others who justified itin another way, and con-
tended for the propriety of employing it in trivial cases. They
proceeded on the maxim de minbnis non coral lex, and that in
matters of little importance so much legal form was unne-
cessary. Reference had been made on a former occasion to the
argument of Mr. Benjamin Shore. He never could see how
that argument was conclusive. He shewed no law for his asser-
tion ; and only proved that the power was a usurpation, having
been used for a length of time. Ile admitted that the Attorney.
General for Ireland ought to be relieved from all the odium
arising from the legal part of the question ; and this being his
impression, he could not concur in a vote of censure. He should
not have brought forward this motion, were it not for the state.
menu of.the Learned Gentleman (Mr. Plunkett) with reference
to the conduct of the High Sheriff. As those statements had
been met by a direct negative, as they were represented by the
parties concerned to have been made incorrectly, it was impossi-
ble that any good could arise from the course formerly recom-
mended by an Hon. Member opposite, who said lie would give
neither party a triumph by going into inquiry. That would
be doing justice to neither party, but denying it to all. If he
saw this matter in the light of a contest between the Orange-
men and the' Cotholics, he should not hesitate to whom he
would grant a triumph. But lie did not view it in that way.—
The Member for Armagh, in his very able and eloquent
speech, though he went into the legal quostion, and touched
upon a variety of topics connected with Ireland, continued
the :natter to this point—whether or net the Attorney-(iene-
rat exercised a sound discretion? Upon that he (Sir P.
II.) was nut competent to form an opinion be had not yet
bef ore hint sufficient means of information. The Hon. Mein-
ber (Mr. llrownlow) asked it' what was not right at one side
of the Channel could be right at the other c He (Sir F. B.)
would answer, Yes. Difference of circumstances might make it
so. On knowing the state of Ireland, it was impossible not to
feel the impression now warmly fekby English Gentlemen in
general. that no impartial justice was to be obtained by the great
bulk of the population. This was the strong feeling of his
mind, but it did not influence his opinion. It would not be
doing justice to the Noble Person at the head of the Irish Go.
vernment, or to the Attorney-General for Ireland, if they had
voted on the question the other night without farther infonna-
don. lie felt justified for those reason% in saying, that the
Learned Gentleman had not been handsomely treated by the
Hon. Gentlemen about him, who had abandoned hint to his own
exertions, and who had, by the amendment proposed by them,
left the question in a state quite unsatiafactory and incompatible
with the demands of justice. Ile had no idea in what manner
the motion with which he intended to conclude could be resisted.
Ile felt confident the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman him-
self would not resist it; nor could he imagine how any party
could oppose it. He was at a loss therefore to know in what
manner it could be resisted at all ; but he had heard a whisper of
an intention to propose that the House should order a prosecu.
tion against the Sheriff. Ile had purposely abstained in what he
had said front every thing that was likely in the most remote de-
mote give offenceto any party whatever, wishin,-- that the House
should conic for once to a vote upon the affairs of Ireland,
leaving all party questions completely out of view.—(Hear !)
Should such a vote as that to which he had just alluded be pro-
posed, he felt himself bound to resist it, considering that by such
a proceeding the House would give countenance to the charges
against the Sheriff—an appearance which, he thought, the house
was not qualihcd to attach to 'that Officer's conduct, and which
would be consequently unfair, conceiving, as he did, that the
House ought not to declare any opinion on one side or the other.
By the amendment carried on Tuesday night last, it appeared
to hint that there was such an exact equality, such a perfect poise
betsvvea the parties, that it was deemed prudent not to proceed
further, although by the vote then agreed to, it was quite im-
possible for the House to suffer the question there to rest; not.
withstanding which conviction he, for one, felt that it would be
unjust for the House to become a party in the accusation brought
'against the Sheriff.—(liear!)7-lie should, therefore, conclude
by moving.:-' That the statement madeby the Right Hon. the
Attorney. General for Ireland in his place on Tuesday the Itith
day of April inst. respecting the proceedings that had taken
place on the trial of Forbes, Handwitch, and Graham, in the
City of Dublin, rendered it incumbent on that House to instl.
Lute an inuuiry into the conduct of the Sheriff of Dublin on that
occasion."

Air. I J assured the House, that the observations
he would make on the present motion would be very few.--
Ile thought it would be unbecoming in NM to oppose inquiry ;
but he did , not think that his case stood upon the question
stated by the Himourable Baronet. The question, in his
case, was one of discretion entirely, and when once it
was resolved into that, it was • not because an Honour-
able Meniper might differ from him on that subject that
therefore he .should censure him. To censure him, the House
must not only differ from him on the question as to his exercise
of that discretion, but must also decide that motives of op..
pression or malice had induced it. lie could not but thank the
Hon. Barotiet for the gentlemanly manner in which he had in-
troduced the motion, a manner indeed which never forsook the
Hon. Baronet upon any occasion. He fully admitted the ne-
cessity of Inquiry, but he submitted that his justification did
not at all stand upon this question. If this case was complete,
and he submitted that it was, without reference to the subject
matter of the Hon. Baronet's motion, he could not be at all
affected by it. He must here observe, that on occasion of his
Address to the House, wherein he had made the statements
respecting the High Sheriff of Dablin, he was not an accuser,
but an accused. lie was stating his own exculpation, though
he was aware that it involved the conduct of other individtuds.
His defence was, that he believed the facts he stated to the
House ; and, so believing them' the question was, whether
he was not bound to act as he had done ? If he believed
that certain circumstances had transpired, all tending to
shew that the minds of the Grand Jury (whether from
their habits or what else, it mattered not) were not In a
state to lead them to a proper conclusion on the evidence,
had he not a right to take the measures he had taken to
obtairi that conclusion? Ile considered himself to have no
personal concern in the present motion, though he should be
much mortified to think that any Hon. Member believed he
had made his charge lightly. His suspicions on theitubject of
those charges had, up to that moment, not only not been re..
moved, but had been strengthened. He now begged to
inform the House that he considered the Sheriti a proper
subject for prosecution ; and that unless the interposition
of the house took the subject out of his hands, he should
institute a prosecution against him. He .thought the She-

riff should have some opportunity of vindicating himself ;
and he (Mr. Plunkett) would not stand in his way. If the
Houee should think proper to accede to the present motion,
and of itself institute an inquiry, he should of course con-
sider the subject as taken out of his hands. -He thought
it proper to explain to the House why it was that he had
hitherto delayed prosecuting the Sheriff. He had; from time
to time, communicated to the Lord Lieutenant the facts he
had already stated to the House with his opinion upon
diem, and those facts, and that opinion, in due course,
were forwarded to his Majesty's Government. This he
mentioned to chew that his charge against the Sheriff' was
no after-thought, for the purpose of- defending himself. Now,
although he had stated his opinion that the Sheriff deserved to
be prosecuted, the House must be aware that a considerable
body of evidence was necessary, in order to put the charge
against him in a legal shape. The trial of the rioters was con-
cluded in the month of January, and of course it would not
have been proper to commence proceedings against the She-
riff' while that trial was in progress. Mr. Sheriff Thorp was
the Sheriff who had impannelled the Petty Jury, and he cer-
tainly thought both Sheriffs ought to return the Jury process. He
admitted, however, that the pannel had been shewn by Mr. She.
riffThorp to his brother Sheriff. Ile (Mr. P. thought it better
not td disturb or embarrass the course of the proceedings by
charging the Sheriff in that stage of them. The House was aware
that it was nut more than two or three days after the result of the
trial had been known in this country before the Hon. Member
fOr Armagh gave notice of the motion lie had matte last week.
He (Mr. P.)-had pressed for the bringing forward of that mo-
tion early ; for the House must be sensible of the anxiety he
felt on its being kept over his head for two months. And when
the motion was at last brought forward, lie declared to the
House that it was not more than five minutes immediately be-
fore his addressing the House in his defence, that he knew the
preCise charge which was to be brought against him. Had he
proceeded against the Sheriff before the bringing on of that
motion, it might be thought that his proceeding was intended'
as a sort of set-off against the charge brought against himself.
The question affecting himself, therefore, he considered as
already disposed of. His intention was to prosecute the Sheriff
nukes she Hoose took the subject out of his hands ; and lie
hoped he might be 'permitted to say, that his mode of
proceeding would be the unfavoured ex op7cio mode; for his
makingu second experiment upon a Dublin Grand Jury was
entirely out of the question. He should apply to the Court
of King's Bench for a rule that the trial should take lace at
the bar of the Court ; and by a Jury taken by an adjoining
county; and by this means he hoped to reach the substantial
justice of the case. It however was not for him to say what
was the proper course to be taken by the House. If it thought
propel. to take the subject into its own 'hands he could have no
objection ; but under all the circumstances, lie thought it would
be more proper and becoming for him to abstain from giving
any vote on the presentinotion.—(Hear, hear !)
Mr. DENMAN thought the statement made by the Right
Hon. Gentleman last week amounted not to a defence, and that
the best proof in his own favour would have been the establish-
went of the truth of the allegations he had brought forward—not
against a public functionary, but in justification of himself.—
He though the whole cause of theßight Hon. Gentleman's pro-
ceeding was open to objection ; particularly in instituting other
proceedings after having, as the Law Officer of the Cown, taken
his choice. of an indictment by a Grand Jury. He must say,
that he felt astonished that participation in a play-house riot
should be brought forward as a charge of high treason.
Mr. PLUNKETT begged to inform the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman no such charge as high treason had been urged
against time accused.
Mr. DENMAN said, the charge was certainly. that of a con-
spiracy to assassinate the King's Representative, the Lord-
Lieutenant. If he could judge of the evidence adduced before
the Grand Jury by that which had been laid before the Petty
Jury, he had no hesitation in saying, that as a member of the
Grand Jury, lie should have treated the charge of a conspiracy
to assassinate, with perfect contempt. And if he were on the
Petty Jury, he would upon his oath say, that he did not be-
lieve the persons accused went to the Theatre under a previous
concert to assault the Lord Lieutenant ; though he had no doubt
there was a previous concert to riot. The bottle he believed
to have been thrown by sonic drunkard, who had first swallostred
its contents ; and as for the rattle, it had been thrown by a boy
of eighteen ; an act, lie thought, much more becoming the mag-
nanimity of the Government either to overlook, or not to bring
before a Jury in so heinous a shape as that in which it had
been charged. 'nen, with regard to the mode in which the
Grand Jury had been treated, he must say that he did not ad-
mit the right of any Judge to comment on the conduct of a
Jury touching their conclusion upon the evidence brought be-
fore diem. If such a. right were to be allowed, it must be
equally allowed to the Jury to retort upon the Judge. He
had no desire to go back to the dine of' Judge Jefferies, or to that
even of Chief-i ustice hitelied, who had been properly attacked
by Swift for having nine ,times sent back a Grand Jury for not
finding a bill t'or libel against the publisher of the Drapier's
Letters ; but he would take time liberty of saying that a Counsel,
however high might be his rank, or however great his talents,
forgot his duty and himself when he threw out, reproachful in.
sinuations against a Grand Jury for their decision in that cha-
racter. The Right Hon. Gentleman having once asked the
Grand Jury to pronounce an opinion on his case, had no right
to appeal against that decision. He (Mr. D.) did not, even
now, exactly recollect when it was that the Attorney-General
heard of the coal-practices of which he complained ; but he
thought that the moment he did hear of them, the affair of the
'bottle and rattle absolutely sank into nothing. They operated
as a poisoning of justice in its very source, and were a reason
for the Riht Hon. Gentleman's taking Immediate proceedings.
Had the Attorney-General done so, he would have selected a
victim more worthy of his indignation than a few journey-
men carpenters. He might then have fairly brought the She-
riff' to justice, but now it appeared that lie complained of
him only when he found it convenient to do so in his own
defence. Ile (Mr. D.) thought the Sheriff would be hardly
dealt with, if lie had not granted to hint the inquiry which he
challenged. Ample reason had been stated to call for the in-
terfere= of the Ilouse of Commons, and to get rid of this mo-
tion as the fornier had been gotten rid of would, in his opinion,
be most objectionable. The party concerned, who agreed to
such a course, agreed to his own shame. He could not refrain
either from noticing the language of the Attorney-General, as
applied to the accused, when he opened the case against them.
lie called them " a gang ,''and used other expressions towards
them, by no means fit to be used by Counsel opening a crimi-
nal proceeding against any individuals. Ile did not like these
persons to be called " a gang" on such an occasion. What-
ever might be his opinions of Orange Societies, he thought it
but fair towards those Societies to say, that in his opinion there
was nothing fairly leading to a belief that their Societies were
implicated in the riot, though the individual rioters might
be members. He wished to-see the principles of English
liberty extended to all, not excepting those who denied its
existence, for he considered that its application to them
caused it to shine with increased lustre. Ile thought many of
the evils which afflicted Ireland were to be attributed to her
not having English laws, and particularly to her being de.
prived, in so many instances, of time Trial by Jury. Ile well
recollected the argument of the Right lion. Gentleman, when
a motion was made in that House for an inquiry into the trans-
actions at Manchester, where many people were trampled upon
and killed who had peaceably assembled to petition. The
Right lion. Gentleman had argued that inquiry, onght not to
take place, because a Grand .fury had thrown out bills of in-
dictment preferred against the individuals 'whose conduct was
to be inquired into. For his own part, he preferred the worst
possible Jury to the best Attorney-General ; and he did not
think but that such a grievance as that stated by the Attorney-
General should be 'tha subject of inquiry by the House. Ile
had fbrborne to state on a former night his opinion of the con-
duct of the Right Hon. Gentleman, because he did not like
to speak it in his absence, and he mentioned that opinion
now with every respect for the Right Honourable Gentleman.
He concluded by declaring his intention to support the motion.
Mr. BANKLS opposed the motion. Ile thought, however,
that it was singular the Attorney-General, who had brought
grave charges, in his own defence, against individuals not be-
fore the Reuse, had not brought them forward earlier. The
Right lion. Gentleman had thus thrown the House into a situa.
tion of great difficulty, Still he (Mr. B.) strongly objected to
the House exercisinga judicial authority, and lie believed, if
the Hon. Bart. had done him the honour to notice his frequently
declared opinions on this subject lie had always found them
consistent. The House was partially relieved from the diffi-
culty he had mentionedats the Attorney-General had declared
his intention to institute a prosecution against the Sheriff. The
House had not the means of doing justice to the inquiry, for it
could not examine the witnesses upon oath. Ile repeated that
the utmost the House could do, with any effect, had been stated
was about to be done by the Attorney-General, and although
this was a duty which be thought that Right Hon. Gentleman
ought to have perfimned before, he should oppose the motion.
Lord MILTON said, the speech of the Hon. Member who
had just sat down, was directed generally against the inquisi-
torial power of the House as to the particular motion of his
Hon. Friend. His (Lord Milton's) object, however, was not
so much to remark upon the speech of the Hon. Member, as to,
notice the observations of the Right lion. and Learned At-
torney-General. The sentiments, which he (Lord Milton) had
declared upon the motion last week, of the Hon. Member of
Armagh, were founded exactly upon the case made out by the
Right on. Gentleman against the Sheriff of Dublin. But,
now the Right Hon. Gentleman wanted it to be understood,
that his acquittal had been produced independent of that care;
if indeed, the passing to the order of the day, could be called
an acquittaL—(Hear, hear, hear !)—lt was not upon thin
merits of the Right Hon. Gentlemen, but upon the demerits of
the Sheriff that he (Lord Milton) had decided. He could not
consent to the statement that the Right Hon, Gentleman was

acquitted. He now wanted to defend himself by getting out
of the present motion ; and declaring, very tardily, that he in-
tended to prosecute the Sheriff. The Right Hon. Gentleman
thought a fair trial could be obtained in this subject, by means
of a Jury taken from the adjoining county. lie (Lord M.)
thought that question was not at all to affect the one now before
the House. He should support the motion for inquiry ; be-
cause if the charges against the Sheriff were well founded,there
would be too much reason to think that the attention of the
House was demanded to the general state of the administration
of .Justice in Ireland.—(Hear, hear !')
Mr. BROWNLOW said he persevered in his opinon that
the conduct of the Attorney-General for Ireland had been harsh,
unprecedented, and unconstitutional. How far the Right Hon.
and Learned Gentleman stood exculpated for an act avowedly
unconstitutional, because he had impugned the High Sheriffs,
it was for others to say : for his own part he did- not think
he had advanced the case one jot. He (Mr. Brownlow) hoped,
that upon the present occasion, there would be expressed in
that House only one unanimous and pervading feeling of
the strong and irresistible necesssity of an inquiry. at the
bar of that House into the conduct of the High Sheriff, in order
that, should he be found as guilty as he (Mr. B.) believed
him innocent, he should receive that censure and punishment
which such misconduct deserved, and that they might have
it in their power to eradicate, root and branch, the whole system
which fostered such an abuse of power—(Hear hear 1)—on the
part of an officer sworn to perform justly the high functions of
his office. The Attorney-General had told them, in plain
terms, that the Sheriff of Dublin had conspired 'to impede, if
not to turn the course of justice, to suit his private political
objects ; all parties ought to unite in one view of such a charge,'
and that was to institute an immediate inquiry into its trdth,
{Hear, hear); not a moment should be lost in redressing so
enormous an evil.—( Hear, hear.)—The Right Honourable and
Learned Gentleman had never been charged by him with cur-
reption ; but here such a charge was brought against the High
Sheriff for " packing" a Jury.
Mr. PLUNKErr.—" I said that the 26 names of the Grand
Jury, who answered at the first call, were the names of persons
not generally suninioned on preceding Grand Juries."
Mr. BROWNLOW said that lie was informed that 19 of
those names were to be found in every presiding grand jury
panel for several years, and that many of them had been often
praised by Judges for their impartial, upright, and constitu-
tional conduct. This was a simple fact easy of solution.—
(Hear !)—The Hon. Gent. then touched upon the manner in
which the Sheriff's were directed to return the panel conjointly,
and said, that Sheriff's Thorpe and Cooper did so make the re-
turn. lint a circumstance had been stated respecting a gentle.
man named Poole, who wished before this trial was mentioned
to be on the grand jury, for some motive of vanity, as had been
mentioned, and who, after a prTnise to gratify his request, was
omitted in the list by Mr. Sheriff Thorpe, who alleged as the rea-
son, that Mr. Poole had said lie should abide by " the King's
letter." Now the fact, as stated by the Shenff, was this—
Mr. Poole had certainly expressed a wish to be on the grand
jury, and when Mr. Sheriff Thorpe took the panel to Mr.
Sheriff Cooper for his conjoint assent, lie mentioned that this
Gentleman was anxious to be on the grand jury? adding at the
same time, that he had made a request to be included in the
list, which was, perhaps, an objection, considering the man-
ner in which they were directed by the Attorney-General to re-
turn the panel. Mr. Sheriff Cooper acquiesced in this objection,
and Mr. Poole was omitted. The latter again applied, and
said, O
that if admitted on the grand jury, he should not divide
on the inquiry respecting the rioters. n being pressed for
the reason of his solicitude to be on this jury, he replied, that a
case was to be tried respecting a Mr. O'Meara, with all the par-
ticulars of which he was very conversant, and could in that
respect he useful to the grand jury ; and that he had a peat
wish to be on it, that he might do justice to Mr. O'Meara.—
(A laugh, and cries of " Hear I")—The Sheriff instantly said,
that he had given himself a conclusive reason why his request
could not be complied with.—(Hear, hear I)—The Hon. Gen-
tleman then complained of the hardship of not including the
Grand Jury with the Sheriff, in the proposed inquiry, for they
bad been alike inculpated. It was said, that Christopher
-Moran, when examined before them, had been asked only two
questions : he (Mr. Brownlow) was authorised by the Grand
Jury to contradict this assertion, and to say, without being in.
formed of the nature of the examination, that Moran had been
asked considerably more questions, and had undergone a longer
examination in their room than lie had sustained at the trial.
He could assure the House that there were many reports in
circulation which were as injurious to the character of the
Attorney-General for Ireland as those which the Right Ho-
nourable and Learned Gentleman had stated respecting the
Grand Jury were discreditable to those gentlemen,
_ and they
were perhaps equally unfounded. For instance, he (Mr. Brown.
low) had heard it stated, that an individual who had given
it to be understood that he could give information respecting
the throwing of the bottle in the theatre was introduced to the
Right Hon. the Attorney-General. Ile might here'observe, that
from the manner in which thebottic was described to have been
thrown, there was just as much reason to suppose that it had
' been hurled ut Lord Combermere, who sat on the opposite side
of the house to that on which the Lord Lieutenant was situated,
as at his Excellency. Be that, however, as it might, he would
proceed to state what was reported to have taken place between
the individual to whom. he had just alluded, and the Attorney.
General. It was said, then, that the man told the Right Hon.
and Learned Gent. that he was sitting in the pit on the night the
Lord Lieutenant visited the theatre, anti that after drinking the
contents of a bottle which he had with him, which were porter,
and not spirits, lie (to use his own words) " chuched the bottle
disposed,
jai
were
oeer
mdstueceilt,atqruatiitoene,notluiegiAl
of
Attorney-General m
informationey..G s e s ra lo
nsage,
over the stage-lamps." The rumour ran, that upon hearing
s'u'breercty, the
wasagainst
ai
couldss shown iot wi
relateen
A l
wet
or dtnho oeeyr..
Housee(nl 4
alullig,ahnutyenrd.
other)—w stories
rewi
ewesreewr
which
were told against the Attorney-General, and which were per-
quite as unfounded as those which the Right Hon. and
Learned Gentleman related against the Grand Jury. It was,
however, sufficient to show that contradictory statements existed,
in order to make out a case for Parliamentary inquiry. The
Grand Jury were not required to try whether there had been
a conspiracy against the Lord Lieutenant, but whether the
parties against whom bills had been preferred had formed
that conspiracy. Upon a consideration of the evidence which
had been submitted to them, the Grand Jury felt bound to de-
clare that they had not, and lie could not see how they could,
come to any other conclusion ; for it was stated in one of the
affidavits which had been placed upon the table of the House,
that the deponent had heard a man, who was since dead, de-
clare that Graham did not throw the rattle in the theatre ; but
that he himself (die man who had died) had thrown it. The
Honourable Member concluded by observing, that the High
Sheriff would be exposed to great hardship in being subjected
to 'an cx.ofJiciu information ; because, if lie were to be ac.
quitted, he would, notwithstanding, be obliged to pay the costs.
Mr. OOULBURN scarcely expected to claim attention
after the able manner in which his Honourable Friend (Mr.
Brownlow) and the lion. and Learned Gentleman oppositehad
handled the matter. He rose, however, to state why he,sup.
ported the motion of the Hon. Member for Corte Castle. lie
thought all persons would agree with him that the question no
longer concerned his Right Hon. Friend, the Attorney-General
for Ireland, or the Irish Government. If his Right Honourable
Friend could !thew just grounds for imputing blame to the
Grand Jury, he must stand acquitted, and his conduct could
not be before the House. Ile conceived that he had done that
the other night. His Hon. Friend behind (Mr. Brownlow)
could not but admit that the High Sheriff had acted with much
indiscretion, as to give rise to the grounds of complaint against
him. The consequence of adopting the motion for inquiry by
that House would be to prejudge the case, and thereby do in-
justice. It was a fact highly in favour of his Right lion.
Friend, that Moran aliould he deemed unworthy of credit by
the Grand Jury. His lion. Friend had stated a circuMstance said
to have occurred in the Privy Council Chamber at the Castle, to
which he would only refer for the purpose ofsaying, in the most
solemn manner, that the statement was altogether void of faun.
elation.—( Hear !)—ln order to discredit other testimony strong-
ly corroborated, his lion. Friend had detailed the conversa.
tion of a man who had conveniently died in the interim, to per-
suade the House that that which was distinctly sworn to by no
less than three witnesses, was void of foundation. As to the
evidence, It was unnecessary to go into detail on one side or
the other—there might be faults on both sides, but that was not
the place to discuss them. If there were looseness of testimony
on one side, it must be admitted the same prevailed on the
other. But the question before the House was, whether the
dey
should accede to the motion of the Hon. Member for Co
Castle, or that of the Hon. Baronet (Sir F. Burdett). It could
not be denied, lie thought, that the most advisable course in this
case was that which would be MOltt satisfactory to the public;
and lie must say, he thought that the fairest which enabled the
accused to rebut charges by evidence on oath. If there was one
principle more undeniably established than another, it was, that
it was impolitic in that House to depart from its higher duties
and descend into an exercise of' the functions of inferior tribu.
nals. He put it to the Howie. to consider what must be the effect,
in Ireland, of a proceeding of the kind contended for by the
Hon. Baronet. The Hon. Baronet, himself was not unaware of
the exasperation such a course would produce. It was not dif-
ficult to foresee what would be the effect of doling oat in small
incomplete quantities, from day to, day, angry matter of this
kind to the two expectant parties, already in a state of mutual
inflammation. In conclusion, lie had only to say that he must
vote against the motion of the Hon. Baronet, because he thought
it a most inconvenient mode of proceeding, and because another
course was open, and more constitutional..—(Hear, hear !)
Colonel BARRY recalled to the mind of the House, that this
was not an individual case, but one of public justice, as had
been distinctly pointed out in the opening speech of die Hon.
Baronet. Public justice, it was truly contended, could not be
attained by an ex-offleio information in Ireland, and it was only

{

on that ground it was demanded that that House should take
the case into his own hands.—(Hear, hear !)---lf they loved
justice, he was sure they would examine into the case at the
bar of the House, by which means alone the calumnies, uninten-
tionally he was sure, vented against the honourable individuals
who were then anxiously waiting to have an opportunity of clear-
ing their character, could be dissipated. It was a thing which
rtiilAosentart
tolwumpohhire nentyhlethGar at
eehangeeuaramet
sletitharftwuenhtesaobnemifnhoesertietthiutmaitiedue
aaHbonsk;ruceudsinti.einirtiiilotialartmon;nosoes.t
~
PgrefiledmieignalhitetlerntydgslostorPnan.ld hint that he did not. it
Mr. I'LUNKETT wished to correct the statement of the
Hon. Member, but was interrupted by cries of " Order."
The SPEAKER observed, that strictly the Right Hon.
Gentleman was not entitled to speak
;abut the
might, un convenienceth.oe
f
correcting an error of this particular atureder
courtesy of the House, excuse the breach of order.
slr. PLUNKErr then stated that he answered a pastor!
as to " further inquiry," and not as to " ulterior proceedillgs''
Colonel BARRY would be extremely sorry to misrepresent
the Right Hon. Gentleman. The distinct impression on his
mind was, that he had answered him that lie should not Insti-
tute ulterior proceedings, unless ordered by the House to do so.
With reference to the anecdote of the rattle it stood thus
The witness who professed to be able to identify the pets°
who threw the rattle, pointed out n man from amongst the i
prisoners, whom he was assured by Major Tacitly was not the
man. That identical man, however, was the man who After-
wards, on his death-bed, conftised himself the person who
threw the rattle.—(Hear, hear l)—He declared it to be his
intention to support the motion of the Honourable Member
for Westminster.
Sir J. NEWPORT thought a complete case had been nude
out for inquiry at the bar of that House. So far from stieh,a
In that country there was party, but no
course inflaming the public mind in Ireland, as was argued g
the Right lion. Secretary opposite, (Mr. Goulburn) it NIS tne
only possible mode of appeasing the dissensions in that country•
nion had no controul there and therefore that House ass e
best place for such a proceeding, and most likely to exercised:l
fluence over the minds of all persons. Justice, he eentoe the
required that the House should ralopt the proposition
Hon. Baronet. The Houae, he considered had made all,
un-
worthy compromise, in a case connected with this question 0O a.
late night. He hoped' they would not fall into the same mii
take on this occasion.
Mr. SPRING RICE considered the whole questien,i,east the
garded the Right lion. Attorney-General, was, "le'
warrant the
grounds of policy or necessity were such as to
step he had onginally taken in issuing er-dficio inform.attUf,.
If there were, he should hold him justified, and lie shonloto7a
public. Public op :-
Bider the Attorney-General for England would be bound count
in the same way, if the minds of the grand jury. of the
__e
try were. poisoned. But, then, upon this contingen,cy tt,e,'„.
did the justification of the Attorney-General for 1 r .lan:11:;t
pend. Ile confesses he was not unprepared for the seen.. ,the
of that Right Hon. Gentleman relative to the conthiett_erba
Grand Jury of Dublin. The reason of this was, thetin„,„,„
last year happened to be placed in the situation of Cl a1f,1,7„
to a Committee of Inquiry into the Affairs of the Corsi
• Dublin. In the course of his labours in that t,.
ganging
mittee he ascertained that it was, and had b Sheriff. almost
practice for many years past, for the High ation.-
exclusively to isppoutt the members of the
1 h Ccharacter, or
Unless a man had this qualification, wont-, t. Grand
rank seemed to avail nothing. The institution 0 t__ re.
Jury was one not to he uunpered with by thos.l„j; be•
spected the Constitution of the Country. He Herate rat true,
lieve the whole case as stated by the Attorney-; „repos
until p.roved otherwise. He was for many reas°lo builin,
sessed in favour of that statement. When he was t 2 en public
shortly after these Bills had been ignored, he nle .___„ wen.
business one of the witnesses, one who had never o,vr;eoor
tioned as yet upon any one occasion, but whose name 17_
.:t„ hi,,
quiry. In answer to his question as to what he 1,117 ',`,l,`;ararld
hand to the Chair to be called, if the House went, laic
witness told him that he had much to tell, but tl.:,'"„uotring
but,lol,. oeuld_
Jury only asked him one or two questions,
him to tell his story, turned him out.—(llesrtltzr,!,; any of
vote for the question of the Hon. Baronet, no Itt""
i that not° s°
those ingenious sideways of meeting question! in , ~,,, Th,e
often practised. Truth was never obtaincti
~ttlir
_,;,,froted his
Judge who indulged ink tuperations against h !Jo /,‘„'',oire into
duty ; and, in his opion, if the House didi. not u'l
. tly to
Mr. Secretary PEEL said,
it
was
inducedhis"-n to do se, 0!1
confine himself to the subject. lie WM
was too 0,001
the present case, it would abandon its functiiotei.ntion
the consideration that the time of that liousinct, the hitrodele:
value,. to admit of unnecessary topics
couldon
n only ernbanto3 t ild
tion of general topics into the inquiry .
u ror no they, you, ~
discussion. The esti as simply whe le. h vigil Silent!
qu luct ot t e otY
consent to institute inquiry into thecont .
...r„ leo, neees.
the
of Dublin ? They were all agreed that 11"1"lti/ r.,h„ was
for the pi purpose of doing justice (0
the Sheri on' then to
tion then w" ,e-
-person most concerned. The whole quaa..._ . in the tle.c.
the way the inquiry would be most satisf tot/
che douse to abstatn
mination of that point he recommended . e
:lee which gene-
from party topics, and adhere to those ptin.willielt gone,Wo re_
rally regulated the conduct of rooisanent, ono, equity;
commendable, because they rested tui justic
tars appealed to Any
commendable,•
good sense. The Right Ilan' eat htoefht forer•ulturdi
man, to ask himself, whether the ATI;
-3170nOSe guano- er fairly
that night were sufficient to induce the the I t
their general practice. He wished to bring
1 s the subject oudico
to the test, and, upon established nrille'r-e-' He se agree '
If the• d• till in•
to be referred to a Court of Law- • id clu e A
the motion of the Hon. Baronet, they woo pee. it ems
. 'Ca e of Jus, „„ite Into
quiry upon fair principles in a
they
they
to net- t the
most important question how far oty to receive a
esa_
attic
the conduct of a Grand Jury ? Were tfleY not faitlY rt
bar the evidence of every man Who said he waslt mew siqipSe.
mined by the Grand Jury. They might bY,,7pcut upon direire, if
the charge—how would the Grand
`try
't.; he oho tl gr
did
fence ? The Right Hon. Baronet had sat , ,_•_,use thel :or
the House refused inquiry into Civil Taiwanabusc!nno:ever,
ohy
not refuse political inquiry. The question, littl•
whether that was the proper tribunal • _ months,
_be, •
which would occupy the House for wee IO ?1,,_,1, the Ale"
for Yorkshire, said it was a quedion ot i:l7,2„ify rotattr:„ 1
out receiving any satisfaction. The Noble .I,?_lu_oire hoe ,t_he,
conduct of all the Sheriffit of Ireland. It wituneirY he would"
more than an isolated question ; could the ~;,, esdi t she ..,
factorily pursued without the administration make
e t ,whee:a tri-
It not be better to refer it to a Court of J-
coeds- The
parties. would be bound by an oath. TIT, ~uestioaa'eatirts
banals of the land were constituted to trY gush quests
by "-case.
greatest Constitutional questions had been t "tion in this „rly
occupied their attention, and observed ofJustice, and there was no *round for exeeP 'Which forllete
The Right lion. Gentleman adverted to a
much investigation, was not satisfactory,.
s alsethe result, wA.
that,.
~he questiOnect of •
to occupy the attention of the House, lie saw come to a, hi,
coming to a conclusion. Suppose they Were they oil not
termination that the Sheriff had acted O'er?, 'Y'they woe' trial.
trust the Attorney-General to prosecute, for ;Atha ut 04,, in.
suffer a Sheriff who bad acted illegally to dl t ex-ofit 'ced-
illa Right lion. Friend was prepared to file
modean
of lot refs
formation against the Sheriffs. Under that ht Ole Sue
l' wno Pre'sP tie-
ing they, would go to trial fairly. If they brook; be pa. ,
fore the House, he might be disposed
before the House, a fair trial afterwards Could. nOt
,ely st tia,ese,
Mr. TIERNEY said, if he could, consider t Ill'or corne.rse,
to vote."."oaed scai:'re
ton whether tie: Sheriff should be tried by a illo:.,'„ nisi
~,
where 1;
but he saw the question on a more eat_'luplatetiond.
It was a question whether all Irish matters Of clu tote e he
t.
to he turned from Parliament and sent back agaistrsno on,
The state of the case was this t_ia, new Minim
totiee t.
li
been formed; their bond *as strict and impoittol,if the 11,liotcice
but the departure from that bond was the sollreeroseeete4we
of Ireland. One part of the AdministradollYo are ntlee...- I,
for crying " No Popery !" whilst others said
)t) TiOt ton their
The Lord Lieutenant went to the play, all- ioters °Blosll
The Attorney-General endeavoured to put the tri 1„,...The (tech
trial, and at last was tried himself.--(A bog 'ti,eir Con De ,
Sheriff and Grand Jury called for inquiry into you $107301.
and the House was recommended to 841.--14,:haontat,ent
prosecuted in Ireland by the very man who '- diiol,Boo4
Such a line of proceeding could not fail to ex into its,
Ireland. The House ought to take the subjee,t_ 004101,
and satisfy the Irish people that justice was 10 D,airy Oi
'Lament. A fair opportunity for Parliamentary Pig
Mr. Secretary CANNING said the speech of t_f:oes t
~.',40
and he implored the House not to pass it over. ..e. tion.o°..aeriti: 1
tleman, although commenced in conformity to 1r.i..0 tO wrolo
,anue' Vale 01
fine the question to narrow bounds, hall a
~,,,otiao Gene
quite foreign to the matter in debate. The XtterneY;,l it in"
/louse was, that the statement made by the, reeler Ito
for Ireland in his place, on the 16th of A1m!,,,, iraillonoal,,
curnhent on the House to introduce stritight 1 airy l'
the conduct of the Sheriffs of Dublin. The oat coult•
able Gentleman had said, if they went
distressted thatioloirf
would bring all the grievances which obt hat spill
try before Parliament. lie bad no., do the cbarKettr csos,,
at the bar would take a wider range wag_ earn*
1,.,1 bte!,
the Sheriffs, but surely that was no reason r..V.„„tiet iftilen,Y.
in that House. The speech of the HeOn__,aw:,int, loa:oteiliw_
marked in some instances with ternperat
tarly7e 010.,f0:1), 01111,.
parts of the topics of the Hon- Bale jute 10,4 ;Pio;
than the sentiments of any Gentleman
...net those °",,,,sreett iie
the question. Ile was obliged to chi elf. Ile i'7,rf‘e tip
which more particularly ay
ittal owl 1 Ilion " otel
would haie been entitled to full solo our it .04
nr After that quail on eel
statement respecting. the Shert •
the Attorney-General tor irpellaiednd °stood
i an no ore tit
Secretary Canning) hesitated upon giv rte of cens_,lsith°
because be was not PrePitred W Pa" isl flat inolltlaw
individuals without utquiry. He cou r,ec_tiiisleionoct retiedielo

ald take
y loved
se at the
uninten.
lividuals
of clear.
1g which
a most
that the
lin]ona
rior pro•

it of the

it Hon.
rienccof
ruler ttie

i

iavestigatiott. By the course of proceeding proposed, the House
would be precluded from examination on oath. Another
course of proceeding would bring the matter to the test of
practical examination. A month ago, the Right Honour-
able Gentleman stated his intention to introduce the dis-
cussion to the proper tribunal, but circumstances which oc-
curred made it impossible to commence the prosecution. The
charge was an imputation of gross misconduct on the part of
the Sheriff's of Dublin, and the obvious course of inquiry, in
order to avoid the inconveniences which must attend the in-
vestig,ation in that house, was to refer it to the proper tribu-
hunal' where the question of innocence or fault might be ascer-
tained by evidence given on oath. If the House should con-
clude upon a case prima Acie, that the Sheriff's were guilty,
they must then send the individuals to their ti ial with the weight
of the authority of Parliament against them. Could any man
Ray they would have a trial without bias against them. Ile did
not dispute the high powers of that House as the grand Inquest
of the Nation' but having the competent regular tribunal to re-
sort to, he should resist the inexpedient course.
Mr. BROUGHAM was not willing to send any man to trial
with a Mill-stone about his neck. If there was danger in sending
the Sheriffs improperly to trial, God forbid ! he said, he should
be an advocate for the proceeding, but if it were dangerous,
hoar came the Sheriff to request the course might be taken
which the Hon. Baronet proposed ? In answer to the Sheriff's
request, it was, however, said, don't, listen to the party—he
doetlinow what be, wants—shut your eyes against him. It
was also said the House. had often got into difficulties by such
inquiry, and that it was better to trust to the Attorney-Ge-
neral. He was not so little learned in the functions of that
House as to be taken in by such doctrines. lie considered
the same a delusion
practised in the fourth year of the reign of
AlaiestY• The charge against the Sheriff's was packing a
°LIT'', and subverting the administration of justice for. party
sake. The character of that party had been collected from
his Right Hon. and Learned Friend. The party was described
to consts t of persons disposed to discharge their duties fairly,
but they could not depend on those under them. This was the
statement made by the first Law Officers of Ireland, whom he
really could not consider acquitted of the charges made by the
Meinber for Armagh. With respect to the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, he stated openly that he saw nothing liktiorriipt conduct.
It was, however, indiscreet and unwise. Hialtight Hoo. Friend
had met the question honourably and ably. friends, the
vernment had been pleased to saY?
because could not convict
an acquittal would be injurious to because eace of Ireland.. They also abstained from acquitting him the
peace of Ireland denied it. The fear was, that it might be
culled a triumphant acquittal. lie expressed a hope that the
oesire of the Sheriff
hidid •
public wcal to meet the charge against him would be
gegaisT examination in that House. If they were not, the
d say that the accuser had been allowed by Partia-
l') moult tO take a
actourse against the principles of justice. Ile had
hever !rown ribunal equal to the House of Commons for
inquiry after truth. With respect to the 'state of Ireland, a
patriotic Member of that House who had devoted a long life
tt;ateltieesber;LecetiOofn,his country, had told them Ireland was dis-
Which Parliament alone could destroy. When
s_ohe lidhad grievances they ought to hear her. Nl'llen she asked
r protection, they save her restrictive laws. She wantetin
J.welari,iyalg hand, and round a bayonet or scourge extended to-
wards
Juar In the present case there was a charge of packing
mule' they milled for Parliamentary inquiry, which the
ought not to refuse. A compliance with the Hon. Ba-
ronet's tuotion would promote the peace of Ireland.
Sir HENRY PARNELL said a few words, which were in.
audible !IMMO a loud and general cry of' " Question
The Illyisicisdivided, when the numbers were as follow
Noes 219.
slajority ih favour of Si; F. Bu-rdett's niotion —lB5
It w•
on Frigyo.rd ered that the House
should go into the Committee
The House adjourned at HALF-PAST ONE O'CLOCK to
Thursday,