The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-17 00:00:00

—— -
of the Drainage Act, while the Irish proprietors did not? The
Act was so drawn up. that it was impossible for any of them
to take advareage of it. Whilst he was on the subject of Scot-
lend, he would state that there was a time when the inhabitants
of Paisley—he would not use the term used by another lien.
Gentleman, and say that they came yelling for money—but he
would say that they were in great distress, and came to the
House for a vote of money. Who were the people
who supported them on that occasion ? Why, the
Irish Members. An Honourable Gentleman, the other
evening, in making his first attempt in that House,
had stigmatised the Bill of the Noble Lord as an unusual mea-
sure, and in his argument he confined himself to the immoral
tendency of railways. He said that Irish railways were all
bubble transactions. If he held any shares in the Kingstown
Railway—which it was clear he did not—and had been in the
habit of receiving the dividend, he would have been slower to
perceive their immoral tendency, or their ruinous character.
The Hon. Member for Sunderland had stated that the English
capitalists refused to embark their capital in Irish railways, but
that was because they had no security for their completion,
and if the Government would once assist them, the English
capitalists would be the first to come forward. It was not
till last week that a grant was made for this railway, amount-
ing
to 78,0001., and it was stated by the Chancellor of the
Exchequer that Mr. Saunders, the secretary to the company,
wrote to him, objecting to employ the paupers
on the railway. From a letter he had re-
ceived a few days since from one of the directors
of the company, he found that one provision of the grant was
that the able-bodied paupers should be employed by task-work
to perform the earthwork of the railway. No notice had
been taken of the numerous presentments made to the Exche-
quer by the barony over which he had the honour to preside ;
and after a period of four months, the Government had adopted
the principle of the soup kitchens, a hint which they took from.
that admirable body of men, the Quakers. He did not believe
that such benefits would result from this soup measure as were
anticipated by the Government. There was no work
for the people of Ireland, and the Government
ought to establish some system of public works
by which the people could obtain provisions. He objected to
the statements made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer of
the penurious mode of giving relief to the people of Ireland
by the landlords of that country. He was sorry not to see the
Chancellor of the Exchequer in his place.
An HON. MEMBER—He is unwell.
Mr. B. OSBORNE—He was still more sorry to hear that
intelligence, but he did not wonder at it, after the monstrous
statements he had made.—(Laughter.) That Right Hon.
Gentleman had been also most grossly misled upon the subject of
the immense number of ejecti-nents served in the county of
Galway. He had received a letter from the lieutenant of the
county, stating that there was no authority for any such assertion.
He thought that the Government was most seriously to blame
in nut calling the House together at an earlier period. The
Hon. Member for Shrewsbury had so attacked and refuted the
arguments of the three Chancellors of the Exchequer, that it
would be cruel to torture them any more. The Chancellor of
the Exchequer upon the other side (Mr. Goulburn) had said
that it was a most injurious thing to raise a loan in a time of
peace. Why, was not the present a most pressing emergency,
even more severe than the devastations of war ? Besides, was
it not more rational to employ the public money
for public purposes, than in improving the private
estates of the landlords by grants for drainage ?—(Cheers. )
In the vote he was about to give, he did not feel the mis-
givings of some Hon. Members, that, if the measure were car-
ried, the Government would resign. It was nothing more than
a mere threat—the Government would not resign. Govern-
ments often take leave but always seem loath to depart, and the
threat was nothing more than a mere crack of the whip for the
purpose of bringing up the Whig recussants, who could not be
brought to vote except under a threat of resignation.—
(Cheers.) He called upon the House not to make the present
a party question ; but because he considered the sufferings and
distress of Ireland as of greater importance than keeping in a
mere Whig Ministry, he should give his moat cordial support
to the measure of the Noble Lord.—(Cheers. )
Colonel CONNOLLY congratulated the Noble Lord the
Member for Lynn fur the very able and statesmanlike manner
in which he had brought the measure under the consideration
of the House. He would have no hesitation in saying, that
in comparison with the measure brought in by the Govern-
ment for the relief of Ireland, the Bill of the Noble Lord was
perfection itself, and, inasmuch as he (Colonel Connolly)
preferred a permanent to a temporary measure, bor-
rowing, and begging, he would give his most strenuous
support to the measure before the House. (Cheers.)
He said he had communicated the statement which he had,
just made respecting the market of Enniskillen, that the re-
turns in the one year had been 58,0001., and the next year it
had amounted to 93,0001. ; and, in addition, the amount of
the population of the town itself. He would not at present,
remark further upon Enniskillen, for he would return to it;
but from the fact which he had just stated, he passed imme-
diately to the Ulster Canal, which was the more immediate
subject of consideration, and he begged to aek the House,
after having heard of so great a difference as that between
se,oih)/. and 99,0001., they were prepared to say the Ulster
Canal would not ultimately prove remunerative, if only time
had been given to improve the traffic, and bring out its pro-
ductiveness? Again he said, the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
attempting to disparage the project of the Noble Lord, had
stated that much the greater part of the project had been pro-
posed to be curried out as a matter of private enterprise, and
he said that it was proposed to do that at a cost of only
5,000,000/. instead of 16,000,0001., the sum asked for by the
Noble Lord. But he (Colonel Connolly) had no doubt that
by stating that sum the Noble Lord (Lord G. Bentinck) had
given himself ample margin, and unwilling to stand at all in
his own light, or to meet unnecessarily the amount of public
obloquy which would be raised if the smallest part of his plan
were not realises', had named such a sum as he was quite sure
would bring the whole project, in all its details, to perfect
completion. But when the Chancellor of the Exchequer Coin-
pared the 5,000,0001. with the 16,000,0001., it was strange
that, during the course of the discussion, some had
entirely overlooked so remarka'le a fact, which had
been quite, forgotten, that the project of the Noble Lord had
been proposed to be carried out by private capital and enter-
prise, and that these very persons, as soon as they received the
encouragement of the Government, would come to the rescue
and effectually carry it out. Too much, he thought, had been
made of the withdrawal of those persons for the present from
the execution of the works. The House knew well the
position in which those persons were—that they were entangled
with the difficulties which became general, owing to the un-
happy state of the money-market. He trusted, however, that
they would be able soon to recover themselves, and he thought
the fact that those persons had subscribed for the
construction of railways some 5,000,0001., a fact
which had been used against the Noble Lord's
measure, on the contrary made for that measure,
and showed that the moment that Government would sanction
the raising of 16,000,0001., those persons would certainly come
to the rescue, and make good the effectual realisation of the
project. He was sorrry to say that it was the unfortunate
condition of Irelaird,that the attempt to introduce English capital
into that country had left them worse than they were before ;
for it had induced a reckless expenditure of money while the
spirit of speculation existed, but the money-market became
deranged, and this attempt had ended and left them worse
than when it began. It had been said, however, that the pro-
ject had been brought out only to serve the purposes of the
railroad speculators, and not to feed the people of Ireland ; but
that was an imputation which, as an Irish Member, not think-
ing it ever would. have been made, but now that it had been made,
would repel with the utmost zeal. He thought it was much to the
credit of the good judgment displayed by the Noble Lord, when,
without any Irishmen in his councils, he had brought out so
splendid a project. He (Col. Connolly) did not like to say any
more in the presence of the Noble Lord himself, or even so
much, but eulogium had become very customary in that House,
and the Noble Lord would get used to it.—( Laughter.) It had
again been stated that the construction of the railways in
the east of Ireland, instead of relieving the Irish people, had
actually been a source of poverty to them. Now he did not
hesitate to give it his positive denial. He had full opportunity
of seeing the operation of railways in Ireland, for his window
looked out on two railroads, which ran some ten or twelve miles
from Dublin. Now although these railways ran through four
parishes, there had yet been no presentment for their con-
struction at the sessions, and all that he as an individual
had been called upon to pay, was only 101., to keep down the
markets. The House now, then, had two sets of measures be-
fore them, and it would be for them to givethe preference but
he asked them whether they were prepared to prefer the mea-
sures of the Government, which, he could not say, would pre-
serve life, but rather leave them to die by degrees—measures
which certainly would not do more than keep them in a mere
state of existence--or the measure of the Noble Lord, which
offered labour and honest remuneration to the starving people,
which would give them due support, and would restore them al-
most to their former position within a reasonable time ? The
latter measure—that proposed by the Noble Lord—
offered not merely a miserable support till August,
o: autumn next, but labour and remuneration for the next
four years. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had spoken
slightingly of the productiveness of Irish railways. Now he
could tell the Right Honourable Gentleman, that before the
present session he had come along the course of the Mullin-
gar line, which was a prolongation of two of the best and
great trunk lines in Ireland. He was well acquainted with
tire course of that line, and the course of some of the others,
and he was strongly impressed with the productive nature of
se
:erainGti :loge
;sr
neoa stru dseaona
sett hnutaor
tae
hand
be
tetnhodeb ytenhtesgeher oNdutohtl
bdheleebt
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nonebreodlyemwapLshl
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get
wasthr ead
the present measure. It bad been stated, however, by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the people of Ireland were
not fitted to carry on the works on I
state, in contradiction to that, on the
; but he begged to
published by Sir John Macneil, wheerecrhede i
statedt of a document
people were hard set the first week to earn that the
their
second they could do it tolerably; and the third week
they were
wages; the
ambitious of taking task-work, and showed no small a
cupidity. He said there was one great system ofm raount of
projected onwards to Cork, and had been contril'Mw.wys
ed
to Carlow. It was of no use to compare the remntter:Cl.
°1"
that railroad with the London and Birmingham Railway.of
Why, there were about twenty miles constructed of it at theon
end, and about the same extent made at the other extremity,
with a large gap in the middle ; it was impossible that such a
railway could pay. He thought that one great desideratum in
Ireland was a line of railroad between Dublin and Belfast.
But he would just advert shortly to the west of Ireland—to the
railway between Derry and Enniskillen. There were some
ten miles of rail laid down, all the land hail been bargained for,
some of it paid for, but it was still unmade; and the question
seemed to be in that House whether these speculators ought to be
encouraged in their useful efforts to benefit the population.
He looked upon these railways as the best means of introducing
capital into Ireland. There was a field of enter prise open, and
there
was a starving population who were only eager for em-
ployment. The Noble Lord's Bill would not only finish the
railwaysst already in progress, but create others which were al-
moimperatively demanded, and that not at the cost of th
public. The Chancellor of
the western part of
Ireland had been very much neglected
On the coast of Galway
the sea was teeming with
ash, for which there was no market, while it was
notorious that fish boughtin Galway on the Monday could
be dressed and upon the table in the afternoon of Tuesday in
Liverpool. If there were
pr
be abundance ofproper roads in Ireland, there would
commerce
there was a salmon fishery, to carry upon them. In Donegal
salmon was taken every afrre from which one hundred tons of
that trade in salmon had been and it was an undoubted fart,
cumstance of there being a rail
woubled from the simple eir-
Birmingham.—( Hear, hear.) ay
There between Liverpool and
ground between Dublin and Galway, was not an inch of
places mentioned in the Bill, which wouldor
not any of the other
benefited by the measure of the NobleLerdbe wonderfully
out ; the people were starving at each of these placesif itwas
carried
for want
of a means of communication between them
hesitation in saying that nothing would liehad
no
stimulate the
prosperity of Ireland more than the establishment of
markets—which were a necessary consequence
roads. Markets would stimulate the consumpti-n of of
good
tures ; and thus they would find that there was
scarcelyman a
manufac-
tures
which could be put on the beneficial effects of thepro
posal of the Noble Lord. Ile had heard it said that this was
the time to regenerate Ireland. He would say to the Noble
Lord the Member for London, that it was the time to. re:
generate Ireland, and the present Bill was the very measure
by which it was to be effected.—( Hear, hear.) as,
Captain LAY ARD said that every Hon. Member who was
an Irish representative would not fail to join in a feeling of
gratitude to the Noble Member for Lynn. He considered
that a system of railways would confer great good upon Ire-
land, but he did not see from whenee the money was to come.
Where would they find such an enormous sum as 16,000,0004 ?

-
order of the Lord-Lieutenant. He did not believe that any
Public office would have been worth a day's purchase had it
not been for that order.
Mr. STAFFORD O'BIIIEN said, same time, precious to
the is,uing of the order in question, he made a (toren-leic ition
to the Government from his part of the country, reecentnentling
them to issue it. He was therefore prepared to :hare its re-
aponiibility with the Government. Until property was ren-
dered secure in Ireland, they could not hope that capitalists
Would invest their money in it.
, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER =aid hi' must
...ass for a few moments upon the attention of the House,
wctle he made an explanation in reference to a statement he
made the other night. On Friday night last he stated,
upon the authority of a gentleman well versed in such
tatters, that only from twenty to thirty men per
mile were employed in the construction of a railway,
tad therefore that only 25 per cent. of the actual cost was
expended in labour. Last night the Honourable Member
for Shrewsbury said that he had mistaken the meaning of his
informant, and he (the Hon. slember for Shrewsbury) heel bad
a communication with' him, who stated he meant there were
25 labourers per mile permanently employed upon a railway.
This morning he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had re-
eeived a letter from the gentleman who supplied him with
the information ; and, with the permission of the House, he
Would read a portion of it. The first paragraph was this :
" Of the total cost of railways, 25 per cent. is the outside of
What is spent upon the ground in labour. I find, from a large
number of results, that the average number of labourers em-
ployed in the construction of a railway of ordinary character,
may be taken at from twenty to thirty men per mile for a pe-
Clod of three years." Now, when he addressed the House he
did not say that twenty-five men was the number employed;
°en the contrary, he took the maximum number, thirty, and
then, assuming the quantity of workto.be contracted at 1,500
miles, as stated by the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn,
that would give employment to 45,000 men, that was at the
Lite of thirty men per mile, not twenty-five, as stated bar the
Hon,
Member for Shrewsbury.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon.
Member for Shrewsbury then went "on to say that be (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) had misconceived the informetion
Which he had received. He held in his hand a letter from the
Woe gentleman whose information he quoted. on Friday last,
and which he received this morning, written since the delivery
of the speech of the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury last night,
in which he stated, "I never called upon Mr. Disraeli, or spoke
to him, or communicated with him in any way.—(Laughter.)
My information to you was fact." He (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) had no business to state anything more upon this
subject, but he thought upon the authority of the extracts
which he had read that it would be evident to the House that
the p trson from whom he derived his information did not in
any way communicate with the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury;
secondly, that he did not say that he (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) was mistaken as to the information he had
given to the House ; thirdly, that he did not incor-
rectly state the information which he had received ;
lastly, that no information was given to me by that gentleman,
whose name if I were to mention would be considered by all
Hon. Members as a most competent authority, had been dis-
proved. He did not believe that the Hon. Member for
Shrewsbury would, any more than he (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer ). state anything to the House which he did not
believe to be strictly true ; he believed bins perfectly incapable
of so doing. After those statements he thought it was evident
that the lion. Member bad been misled or imposed upon, and
if he would forgive him making a suggestion to the Hon.
Member, he would advise him not to make any statements to
the House upon which he could not most correctly rely,
and the truth of which he had not most carefully sifted. By
acting otherwise the Hon. Member tended to invalotate not
only such statements as those he made to the House last night,
but also to detract from the weight of other statements which
he might make to the House.— (Hear, hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI could assure the Right Hon. Gentle-
man that if he used any expression in the course of the
debate which might have caused him any annoyance, he ex-
tremely regretted it. lie felt that respect for the Right Hon.
Gentleman which was always due to his position, his talents,
Itudhis abilities.—( Hear, hear.) He thought, however, that
the Right lion. Gentleman had wrongly stated the question
before the House. What he (Mr. Disraeli) said to the House
Was, that a gentleman of great experience in the management
of railways, and well known in the scientific world, kind" sup-
posed, in consequence of the speech of the Right Ho-
"(treble Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer
that the information he had given him had been misunderstood,
He had reason to believe that he was the person referred to
by the Right Honourable Gentleman, and lamented
that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should have
fallen into such a mistake. The whole misunder-
standing arose from the use of anonymous letters. Had the
Right Hon. Gentleman mentioned the name of his informant.
there could have been no possible mistake upon the subject.
He did not say that he had seen the individual to velenn the
Right Hon. Gentleman referred, but that he had seen an
individual who believed himself to be the person referred to.
H. was authorised to name the person to idiom he alluded,
but he did not think it fair to do so, especially as the Noble
Lord the Member for Lynn was present during the interview.
Mr. COLLETT said that he would not interfere with the
privilege of the Member for Wycombe, hut that he hoped to
be fortunate enough to catch the eye of the Speaker before
the close of the debate. He thanked her Majesty's Govern-
ment for the course they had pursued with respect to the
Public works. It had answered in every instance, and men
who had left the country were new enabled to come back with-
out the fear of being shot at.
Lord CLEMENTS wished to put a que tion to the'llight
Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The
Right Hon. Gentleman in his speech the other slight had
stated that the landlords in some parts of Ireland were pur-
suing a system of ejectment by means of processes for rent
to an exent never before known. In one quarter
sessions ho had said that 6,40 a processes had
been entered, so that 4,000 were issued by the landlords
for rent. He was quite sure that the Right lion. Gentleman
would not wish to make any misstatement with regard to these
processes, and he ( Lord Clements), therefore, wished to know
from the Right Hon. Gentleman from what source he derived
his information ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he
made the statement on the authority of a person who had been
in Mayo and through part of Galway, and who had made the
communication to the Right Hon. the Secretary for Ireland,
If the Noble Loid wished to ascertain the number of these
processes there would not be the least difficulty in movieg for
a return of them.
IRISH RAILWAY BILL.—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
The order of the day for the adjourned debate was then
read.

Mr. B. OSBORNE said, in rising to address the House he
would endeavour to condense his observations as far as the
nature of the subject would admit. He quite agreed with
what had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, that
they should steer clear of all
party policy or political consideration in discussing this ques-
tion, so important to the interests of Ireland as well as the in-
terests of this country. He for one never could admit that
there was any distinction between the interests of England
and those of Ireland, as that which had a tendency to benefit
Ireland also benefited this country.—( Hear, hear.) But the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
fallen into the very error himself of which he warned other
Hon. Members. He had expressed himself dissatisfied with
the names of the Noble Lord and the two lion. Members on
the back of the Bill. Now he (Mr. B. Osborne) must say
that whatever diterenee of opinion he might have with the
Noble Lord the Member for Lynn, or the other two Hon.
Members, he felt certain that on the present occasion they
were sincerely desirous of benefiting Ireland.—( Hear, hear.)
This was no party question, and much as he admired
fire ability
of the Hon. Member for Mayof (Mr. D. Browne), lie could not
see what connexion there was between. the earthwork of rail-
ways and the extension of the franchise,
of laying down railways would havean oerffetchtatotahethper.nlcripislhe
Church.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member might as well
talk of the advantages that would result from a Conservative
engineer, or a Protestant surveyor.—( Hear, hear.) In history
he recollected a circumstance equally reasonable. It was also
during a period of famine. During the great fire of London,
when the metropolis was suffering from famine and distress, the
people of Ireland sent over 21,00 J fat cattle ; but the historian
said, that so high did party spirit run, and so bigoted were the
citizens of London, though many of them were famishing, they
refused to taste the beef because they were Popish bullocks.--
(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) But they were so, far improved,
that none objected to the pre-tent scheme, because the Noble
Lord who proposed it was a supporter of the Esta-
blished Church.—( Hear, hear.) lie ( Mr. B. Osborne)
regretted that the Noble Lord the Member her the city of
London had not only opposed the Bill, but held out no hope
that a measure for railways in Ireland would be introduced in
the present session. He (Mr. B. Osborne) lamented that inti-
mation, but having heard it, he was bound to record his vote
in favour of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn. While he
gave his support to the principle of the Bill, he did not pledge
himself to do so in its details ; for when the Noble Lord spoke
of 16,000,000/., he thought that he would have rendered him-
self more popular if he had mentioned a somewhat le,ser sum.
He would not give his support to the measure on the
ground assigned by the Hon. Member for Kilkenny ( Mr John
O'Connell), who was indifferent as to the nature of the works
so long as a large sum of money were transmitted to Ireland.
He (Mr. Osborne) would not give the measure his support on
that ground, but he believed that the measure of the Noble
Lord contemplated profitable works, on which English capital
might be safely invested. He could not help observing that
Hon. Members who spoke on this question appeared not to
have listened to the speeches on the same question by previous
31embers, or to have even looked at the debate in the news-
papers, for they brought forward the same old fallacies which
were urged on the first evening by the Right Honourable
Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and which
were afterwards so triumphantly exploded by the Right
Honourable the Lord Mayor of •York and his Honourable
Friend the Member for Shrewsbury. The Right Honourable
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had alleged that only twenty.
five per cent. of the gross outlay would be expended io
labour, whereas it had been proved that from
sixty to seventy per cent. would be so expended.
It had also been said that it was not right to interfere with pri-
vate speculation. As applied to England, no doubt that disc.
trine was good, but it was entirely different when introduced
into Ireland. The Noble Lord at the head of the Woods and
Forests a few years ago was of this opinion, and it he was not
mistaken, the position the Noble Lord then took was supported
by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Member
for Portsmouth—nay, the latter Hon. Gentleman went so far
as to say that he was perfectly astounded at the statement of
the Hon. Member for Tamwerth, that it would be unwise
tee interfere with private speculation in Ireland. '
He came now to the principal objection of the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, namely, that he was unwilling that the State
should become a great money-lender, He considered that it
would be much better that the State should be so, than
become a profligate spendthrift, disposing of the money of the
country in the highways and bye-ways.
_ But what had been
_
the policy of the State ? hy, always that of a money-
lender. He would mention a fact which could not be too
often impressed upon the House, that since the union eighteen
millions oen
millions had been lent to England and Scotland, ou t of which
only six millions had bee. repaid, whilst withino thfe am
nine millions had been lent to Ireland, whichse period
nin
e t o
millions had been repaid. —( No, no.) That was an account
greatly to the shame of those countries, and .greatlyto the
credit of Ireland. He would now refer to the statements of
the Hon. Member for ;Montrose, and he thought that the
Hon. Gentleman was a little hard in his observations with re-
gard to Irish proprietors, and lie drew an inference which
was certainly not warranted in doing; he objected to Ireland's
getting any money unless Scotland got some also. o he
(Mr. Hume) should have recollected that Scotland got a very
fair share of public money. Site got upwards of a million of
money fur the Caledonian Canal.—(Hear, hear. ) He drew,
moreover, a comparison between the Scotch landed proprietof,
and the Irish, bidding the latter to " go and do likewise.
Now, he would ask, did he know what the Irish
landlords were doing. One Noble Lord in the county of Water-
ford, with an income of 26,000'. a-year, had spent 5,00 a/. in
the purchase of Indian meal, and was employing every labourer
bpon his estates, and every other proprietor in the county was
imitating his example ; and he knew tha' the la. ies of Ireland
were selling their jewels, and disposing of their jointures, in
order to alleviate the distress. lie did riot allude to those who
were laying down their carriages, arid diminishing heir ex-
penditures, because that was what ought to be done
by every one who had a heart to feel, hut it
was not just to hear the Honourable Member
thank his God that he was not the pu'die. sinner.--( Hear,
hear.) There was the Marquis of Waterford, whose name was
never heard but in association with works of charity. What
was the reason that the Scotch proprietors availed themselves

He was content to support the measures of the Noble Lord
(Lord J. Russell), because he believed he would not turn
tail in this emergency, but do his, best to promote the welfare
of Ireland. The late Government, and those who supported
that Government, professed themselves anxious to befriend
Ireland, but the Noble Lord at the head of the Government
had proposed and expressed himself desirous to carry out
others in a similar spirit. There were upwards of a million
horses in this country who were fed with corn, but he saw no
reason why these horses, but more especially those connected
with the army, should not be put on a smaller allowance. If
this were done three millions of people would have food for
seven or eight months of the year. Many impu-
tations had b• en cast ou the characters of Irish
landlords during the debate, but many of them were spending
immense sums of money, with the view of providing food for
the people. He read a letter from a gentleman in the Queen's
county, stating that the resident gerelemen and others had
come forward in a princely manner to relieve their suffering
countrymen, and that the owners of the soil, who were in that
part absentees, had contributed but a trifling portion of that
sum. He was well acquainted with Ireland, and his ex-
perience led him to form the opinion that a more stringent
poor-law was required, which would throw the support of the
poor upon the owners of the soil and others, who were in a
condition to pay their quota towards their support of the
poor. He felt proud, as an Englishman, at the
noble exertions which had been made in England for the relief
of the distress in Ireland. To show that the Irish are good
workers, and could not only rely, when supplied with proper
work, on their own exertions, but aid their relatives at home,
he read a letter from a gentleman in New York, stating that
during a short period—since November last—the labouring
Irish of that city had remitted to their relatives in this country
650,000 dollars, or 130,000!. sterling. It was an exciting
period, but they must not allow that excitement to prevent
their free and calm judgment. He could not support the pro-
position of the Noble Lord.
Sir J. WALSH had been an attentive observer of
these debates, and had gathered from the speeches of
Irish Members of all parties, and from all parts of Ireland,
that the Irish people looked upon the measure in a kindly
spirit, and that it would do much to relieve their sufferings.
He thought that in the course of the present debate many of
the arguments of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor
of the Exchequer had been entirely demolished. All the
objections he had urged against the measure had been com-
pletely disposed of. But before going into the merits of the
question, he (Sir J. Walsh) would remark that it seemed to
be the general impression that the potato crop was not only
destroyed, hut that there existed no probability of its being
perpetuated. He regretted to hear this, and hoped that such
would not be the case; for he could not agree with the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that such
would eventually result to the benefit and improvement of
Ireland. However much he might admire the tone and
spirit of the Right Honourable Gentleman's address,
he could not agree with him in the opinions he had expressed
on thin subject. He was quite persuaded that if the potato
crop was permanently destroyed, there would be the greater
suffering and distress, and that it would be perfectly impossible
for the poorer class of occupiers to maintain their position in
the country. A great deal had also been said respecting a
poor.law for Ireland, but he felt sure that if such a poor-law
was carried into effect as many advocated, the whole capital of
the country would be swallowed up. The property of the
country would be borne down by the burden, while the bfatall
farmers would themselves be the greatest sufferers. Again,
the cultivation of the waste lands had been recommended as a
panacea. Now he was firmly persuaded that this scheme was
one of the wildest imaginable, and would prove itself anything
but adequate for the evils of Ireland. The reclamation of
waste lands required two things—time and capital—.whereas
the condition of Ireland wanted prompt and active remedies.
Emigration had also been referred te, and he much re-
gretted that the Government had net brought forward a com-
prehensive scheme as an auxiliary to the other measures
they had introduced for the benefit of Ireland. He knew of
one noble proprietor who had as agent in Canada to assist
all parties who arrived in the colony from his estates
in Ireland, and assisted them in locating themselves in the
colony. The emigrants, in consequence, found themselves
among friends as soon as they got there. Such a system of
colonisation might be extended under the direction and control
of the Government. —(Hear. ) With regard to the present
measure, he believed it would awaken the latent energies of the
country, and therefore it had his most cordial support. He
would not speak of its advantages in opening up mines of
wealth, in accommodating the fishing on the west of Ireland,
or in carrying fuel and other produce all over the
country ; but he would say that they would be mach to
blame if they neglected to introduce into Ireland one of the
greatest means of improvement and human elevation ever in-
vented by the genius of man.—(Hear, hear.) He had no de-
sire to go into the details of the question after the very able
speech of the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury, but still he might
follow, and pick up some facts which he had left untouched.
In doing so, he could not do better than to refer to a report of
Sir John Macniel, the eminent engineer, made to the share-
holders of the Great Southern and Western Railway in Sep-
tember, 1845. ( The Hon. Member here read an extract from
the report in question, stating that, for a considerable
time, there had been a great number of labourers
employed under him, and that every one was satisfied ; they
conducted themselves in the most exemplary manner ; had all
been unskilled labourers, and that throughout the district
through which the line passed there was no one unemployed. )
By another report -made by the same engineer in the March
following, it apeared that there were 2.5,000 labourers em-
ployed, all Irishmen, in the district, and 'the same beneficial
results were in operation. Another objection which he hoard
urged by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was, that it would
be an injustice to other railways. The Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer read a letter from a correspondent of his, and indeed
all his correspondents appeared to be anonymous, stating that
it would be an act of madness on the part of the Government
to encourage all the railways projected in Ireland. It was quite
clear that railways already established gained enormously by the
extension of the railway system, and he could mention many cases
in which railways would be benefited by the formation of other
lines. Neither could it be said that the English railways
would be injured. by this measure, for many of the English
lines would be immense gainers by the extension of the rail-
way system in Ireland. His Right Hon. Friend had urged
that private enterprise ought to carry out these railways, and he
was willing to admit that the carrying out of these immense
undertakings by private enterprise was a great proof of the
healthy and. civilised state of the country. But his Right Hon.
Friend might push his argument too far, and say that these
railways ought not to be carried out by any other means.
That was not so. Let them look at the Russian railway from
Petersburreh to Odessa, which was carried out by the Govern-
ment, and no one could deny that that line would be of im-
mense benefit to the country ; and similar circumstances existed
in France. He could mention many other instances, but he
was not willing to occupy the time of the House by
entering upon them at present. The objection of the Noble
Lord was chiefly a financial one, but he thought that it was an
objection which must really rest upon the urgency of the neces-
sity. The Noble Lord had also said that English funds would
not bear this great call upon it, and there could be no argument
adduced on the subject which was less founded upon fact. If
they could convince the House that the advance was necessary,
could any man doubt the capability of the English nation to
furnish this comparatively trifling sum ? He did not under-
stand the Governor ent to object to the advance itself, but only
to the security for :repayment. Let them see if the railways in
Ireland would give a proper security for the payment. It ap-
peared from as ext ract from the railway returns, that there
were four railways in operation in Ireland—the Dublin and
Kingstown, the Ulster Railway, the Dublin and
Drogheda, and the Great Southern and Western.
The Dublin and :Kingstown paid 9 per cent. ; the Ulster
Railway paid 51. 101. per cent. on the share capital ;
the Dublin and IN ogheda paid 31. 14s. on the share capital,
although not completed ; and the Great Northern and Wes-
tern, which was only opened since August last, paid 1,000/.
per week, and, deducting 4001. per week for working ex-
penses, that would give 31,2001. per annum. The length of
the line was 56 miles, and if that, according to the Nobie
Lord, were to cost 16,000/. per mile, that would give
904,000/. The tw o-thirds of that would equal 602,000/.,
and the interest at three and a half per cent. would be
21,093/. ; and so the 'y would have a revenue of 31,0001. as a
security fur 21,0001.. per annum. Was not that a proper se-
curity for the mousey to be advanced? And let them remem-
ber that the last railway was only open a few months, and
very imperfectly dssveloped. He felt himself forced to give
his vote for his N able Friend, for the measure was one calcu-
lated above all other's to give relief to the present distresses of
Ireland.
Mr. V. STEWART said, that whatever might be his
opinion on this measure, he trusted that the Noble Lord would
e consider him less grateful than he should be for what he
( the Noble Lord) had already done for Ireland. He thought
that on such a means are, involving so large a sum as 16,000,(100/ ,
brought forward lee the Noble Lord, and not by a responsible
Government, suffi c Tent argument had not been adduced to war-
rant its adoption.. He thought that the Noble Lord deserved
the greatest ere dit for bringing such a measure before the
country, but he. 'thought that the Noble Lord ought only to
have tendered it.. to the Government, and not do as he was then
doing, force it. -upon their consideration. He had not made up
his mind, however, that while his country was suffering as it
then was front famine, this measure was the one which the
House could hest adept to alleviate its miseries. The railways
must certainly give general employment to the people on three
miles on each side of their course, but even with that admis-
sion, there would be large portions of the country which would
not be benefited by it. Although he was quite aware that
every'oody must he anxious to benefit Ireland, still they must
necessarily place the Government in a state of greater difficulty
by encumbering them with the raising of a loan of 16,000,000!.
That was the moment for any one to step forward, and not
interfere by forcing them to adopt measures which a responsible
Government would not sanction. He swished to say nothing
against the formation of railways in Ireland. If they could be
feaLoosirsumimnsetetaridnieeschkeoy,untghahrile Government, he thought they would be of great
advantage to
Ittwhfeateoyictountry, for he had taken a great part in the
thissidrellsignvv. ;
rietarn.
would
uriuf
what
bh
beee
t eoGovernmentifdgt
great
ytbenefit,e l
dwoinu but
u givet tbe
carryingu thattebuet
a rote than o'nl3thA
stood, for he hld
eRR presentO N had
occasion,n eve r
but
tt
he
greaterspuai nng icomplicatedving
by his public and by his private algageraents, that he could
not bring his mind or his conscience to vote against the promo-
tionslightest interest i
promote the interests of of railways in
urerulatainlwde.ys,Letbehtim
yet
tot
he
ee
wmaissuriedeenr--
ways. Last year he had beeinthionnewohticahte.e7uutladtiobres
a single share, or had the
con-
vinced that there wans swoblei
waited t o
which the Duke of Leinster °pp°
that country as the formation of rail-
before the Government of thwaats site ( Sir Robert Peel), at
upon the Right lion. Baronet
lthe head, to put this measure
vote which was at that time perf'eacyti
views of the Secretary for Ireland,ynionwn7inst
.In 1 839 he had given a
Wooas and Forests. He had then advocat dot ibtelbeeen
headyeeiewwsi
oftwh thetibe
be
he now held, and they were embodied in the three points
he had submitted to the Government. These three
pointswi wereiich
shortly as follows, and he regretted that the Noble Lord at the
head of the Government was not in his place. Ile had'thenstated
that in Ireland they had no resources, ma capital:no machi-
nery for the formation of railways in Ireland. But in Eng-
land precisely the contrary was the fact, r card in following the
Noble Lord in those views he. felt that it was right. Now his
principle was this, that if it was right In 1839 to promote
the formation of railways, in Ireland, it w is still more right to
do so now. He did not pledge himself t o the 16,000,000/.,
but if the principle were right, then t fee details were of
secondary consequence—(Cries of " No, i bo.") He might be
wrong, but if he understood Parliamentary usage aright, it was
that in giving a vote for any measure on • the second reading,
he was only committing himself to the principle of the
measure and not to the details of the eat n.—( Hear, hear. )
themselves; and the third:course was to maim he
money for the
They second portion of the plan was to pro mote the railways
formation of these several railways, and. he conscientiously
believed that not a shilling would be lost. He would
refer to a petition which he had presets' .eel in 1:39, and he
might say that he should be inconsistent if he 6;
47te4ihoaw
.ed for that which had been the object of his d iesiren' er s a
Ite
by
petition was u
f
headed
b Bedford,
Earlyt the
imn t Dukeouof eashL: :' 1, and ot tier
influential men in that country. This pet ition f stated . .hat t
roily
the
roads were the best means which could posse bly be adopters o
-improvement of Ireland. He had been. re, minded that the
s.ltfollow e
tcall
present Chancellor of the Exchequer was not Chancellor th
bs: qui
he would not, therefore, quote that gentled' an's opinion,
he woule quote the opinion stated by the P .en. Member for
Montrose (Mr. Hume), and that was, that r? ailroads in Ireland
was the only cure for the evil, and he hoped 'that his vote would
this night be in accordance with his ape iecji in 1539. This

again, with respect to prospects of the country
in relation to its foreign affairs. It was given out
thisb country by
her
hceorl‘riyajestylon the first day of the session, that
still continued, and was likely to continue.
on terms of amity with the. foreign Powers of Europe. I
heard that announcement with great satisfaction, but my con-
fidence in it was somewhat shaken by recollecting the discus-
sions which took place between this and another great country
upon a certain question ; and the remembrance that it was
at the same time announced that three other great Powers in
Europe had committed a manifest violation of good faith to-
wards this country. Now, i this state of things, the Funds
at 911., and Exchequer-bills scarcely bearing premiums, the
Noble Lord calls upon us to authorise her Majesty's
Government to sanction contracts which are to spread

was no transitory calamity passing over Ireland, to be cured in r ver four years, that may amount to 16,0a0,00:W.—( Hear.)
seven or eight months. In his own neighbourhood he had I know of no other !no-le for providing fur this assumed defi-
done all that he could to alleviate the evil.—(hear, hear.) ciency, • except by a vigorous effort—by direct taxation—
But it should beremembered that the wholeof the potato crop of ( Hear, hear)—visited on all parts of the United Kingdom—
Ireland had been destroyed, and therefore it was that. he (Hear, hear)—or by the issue of Exchequer-bills in ths
warned the House that wane measures should be devised for , doubtful state of the public revenue, or the comma:tam of a
the relief of the people of Ireland, and unless they did devise loan to the amount required, engendering peseibly a direct
such measures, he was quite sure that the people must starve. j taxation in order to provide for the interest of that loan. I
What was the condition of the landlords of Ireland ? give no opinion whatever on the policy of adopting the alter-
Why that in the majority of the cases the rent was not native course. But suppose the financial Minister considered
paid by one-fourth of the tenants; that in half the cases there 'it right to risk the loan upon Exchequer-bills, lam
was not one-sixth of the rent paid ; and in many cases it was : compelled to ask, would it be advisable to increase the (faculty
an actual fact that the people who were oppressed were them- , of his financial position by entering into engagements to the
selves more in need of relief than those who were on the list of amount of 16,000,000/., to be spread over a period of four
the guardians. He knew a nobleman, a landlord in the county years? Sir, I must totally and entirely differ from those who
contend that you can pledge the public credit of the country
of Tipperary, whose annual rental was some 7,400/., but what
would the House think when he told them that that nobleman for the purpose of promoting commercial enterprise without
had only receiVed 510/ out of his 7,400/., being not 8 per . subjecting the country to any risk of loss. ( Hear,
cent. of that which was legally due to him ? He told Hons i hear.) Why, the Noble Lord may find it absolutely ne-
Gentlemen in that House that the landlords in that country 1 cessary to provide also four millions of money in the
with which he was connected, as well as in the county • present year to meet the emergency of the time ;
next to it, had sold their houses, given up their ' and, depend upon it, you will at once so surcharge
1
carriages, and devoted their time and their money to the f the money market, that there must be a positive addition made
maintenance of the destitute poor in their localities ; they had to the interest paid upon Exchequer-bills. —(Hear, hear. )
taxed themselves to the extent of 30s. in the pound on their iWhat is the public credit of the country ? Why it is a part of
rental. In one barony in the county of Waterford, they had, the national property—it is one of the elements of our financial
up to that period, laid on themselves a burden of 30s. on their strength, and you cannot appropriate any portion of that credit
average rental to meet the exigencies of the barony. He to the encouragement of commercial enterprise without weak-
knew three landlords in the same county who employed and ening your power to apply the same principle in cases of emer-
paid from their own resources upwards of 1,200 individuals, gency. It is quite impossible that the contrary should be
and if Hon. Members doubted the fact, he would give the the case, and, therefore, I say that the application of
names of these three gentlemen, although it was sometimes the national credit is very much the same in principle as the
unpleasant to do so in that House. And when Irish Members application of direct taxation.—(Hear, hear.) Every appli-
were told, by the Hon. Member for Inverness, that the land- cation of the public credit engenders a necessity of an in-
lords of Ireland ought to hare taken measure. to borrow money creased taxation, and renders you less able to make a great
from the Government, as the landlords in the Highlands of exertion when necessary ; and therefore it does become abso-
Scotland,:and in other places, had done, his ( Sir H. Barron's) lutely necessary to consider whether the application of sixteen
answer to that was, that he himself, and other Irish landlords, millions of money is required for the purpose of meeting the
had applied to the Board of Works for a portion of the million, present calamity and averting the future danger of Ire-
which had in a previous session been voted for the purposes land, and whether the gain is equal to the risk
of draining; and what did the House think was the answer he we run from such an application. If I understand
received from the Board ? Why, he got a post letter asking the Bill, it is this, it enables the Treasury to advance, for the
him if he was a tenant for life, because, if he was, he need not next four years, a sum, the maximum of which is sixteen
apply, as the Government had taken the opinion of the law millions; it does not impose any obligation that the whole sum
officers of the Crown, and the provisions of the measure did not is to be levied at the same time, but twelve millions may be
apply to such• Why, he told the House that eleven out of levied in four years, and the remainder when the Railway
every twelve proprietors in Ireland were tenants for life, and Commissioners might desire. This advance of sixteen
therefore they did not get a single shilling out of the million millions was not limited to railways that had absolutely
which had been so much talked about in that House and out received the sanction of Parliament; but supposing,
of it, and they were altogether thrown on their own resources. after the investigation of the Railway Commissioners,
That was the fair and honest answer to give to the Hon. Member there should be f
lio cation ound only
tw a
ve suffimciillient extent u
must of works
for Inverness. And now he might perhaps be allowed to say that
to demand the appf el,ons, yo
he regretted exceedingly the tone adopted by the Chancellor infer that the Treasury is limited to advance only the
of the Exchequer in regard to Irish landlords. He regretted 12,000,000/.; power is given in the Bill to the Treasury to ad-
that tone most sincerely, because he thought it an improper vance the other four if Parliament should give its sanction to
tone to take with regard to Ireland; he thought that her dis- any other projects. It is not that the Treasury is liable to ad-
tresses and difficulties were great, and it peculiarly interested vance the money, but as I read the Bill, there is no discretion
the Government of this empire, the people, and this House, to given to withold it, provided that the Railway Commissioners
show their sympathy by giving their assistance to that country. certify that the project is likely to afford employment, and be
He would net dwell at any length on this point, but he hoped beneficial to the country. The power which was invested in
that a sympathy of feeling would be evinced by her Majesty's that department_ was taken away, and placed in the hands of
Government with the people of Ireland. The Chancellor of Hon.
Gentlemen who might be railway shareholders. It was
the Exchequer had told them that this Bill was intended rather certainly a novel principle to make the Treasury of the country,
for the relief of destitute shareholders than of the destitute poor with respect to the advance of sixteen millions in the course of
of Ireland. That might have been intended as a very good four years a mere instrument destitute of power, and to transfer
antithesis--as an amusing way of putting the question—but it it to a body in no penssil, and inn no way
Ii ter
rested
was not consistent with the fact. The Bill was for the pur- in economising the eture of the contry. It certainly
pose of giving assistance to the poor of Ireland. He believed was a novel principle to introduce. What Ito divest the Trea-
in his conscience that this was the objectof the Bill, and for sury of its power, and make it a mere inetrument in the hands
that reason he intended to vote for the second reading. He of Railway Commissioners, compelled to advance the public
(Sir H. W. Barron) had no connexion with the destitute money on the certificate of those Commissioners, which was
shareholders in Ireland, or any other shareholders, but the Bill not even very stringent in its provisions, as the Treasury
received his support because it was intended to give relief to should find the money if the certificate ran thus,—
" That the
all classes in the country, from the highest peer to the hum- effect of the railway would be beneficial to the public, and likely
the country
has
n
o
blest peasant. He knew that the landlords in Ireland had to afford public employment." It is not to be that there is
comemann forwardmanner.—(Cries
(cr oi
ens this
of
f ,Question,
,
e squestion.") most
on .n,,0)bl e
He
en generousdthought it thatany certaintyeertifieat
certificate, the
t hr
ee pfianyamneeni
financial
Hp
department
e Bear)—and eta
or
f)
Than don receiving
right to state these things, because much had been said in that
_option, but m ust' at once proceed to raise the required amount.
House against the course pursued by the more wealthy classes Now, as to the prospect of repayment, it was generally
of Ireland.
In the city of Waterford, the merchants, the assumed that at the end of thirty
shopkeepers, and the residents of all degrees were doing their money back again. But observe that would obtaintheir ea r s they
duty nobly ; they had not got the assistance of a shilling from in the Bill which insisted on the eborrow there was no providing
borrowing company provisions
Government, and yet they had four relief committees at for the gradual repayment of the loan. Last year—l allude to
work.—(Hear, hear.) He did not, however say, that the the Drainage
landlords of Ireland had in every period of their country's interest, at three-and-a-half per emit. but
toprovided that
history done their duty so well; he admitted that absentee the borrower should instatly commencewethe
landlords had grossly neglected their estates and forgotten the principal at not less than six-and- a- hal per
interests of their tenantry. It became every man who retained But by the present Bill the borrower could do so at three
a feeling of humanity in his bosom to attend in his place and cent., and is not required to repay any portion until the expira-
toPer
provide some means for the relief of the starving thousands tion of thirty years. Well, even at that remote period
in Ireland ; this measure afforded hopes of doing so, and there- (A laugh)—have you a certain prospect of getting back an
fore he should give it all the support in his power, because in portion of it ? By nu means; for there is a clause in
thus acting he would be doing his duty to his constituents, his the Bill which provides that the time can be extended.
country, and his God. The measure, I admit, is as: free from objection as that for
Sir ROBERT PEEL said—Sir, it is my wish to discuss making roads, or administering relief; and it was not on that
the proposal which has been brought forward by the Noble account that I have considered it right to oppose it. The lion.
' 't and temper befitting the deep sense which I Gentleman who sits near me (Mr. Hudson) takes a particular
Lord in a spirit
entertain for the magnitude of the calamity under which pride in that part of the Bill which pays off mortgages on the
Ireland is now suffering, and the magnitude of that future railways which are now existing.—(Laughter.) The first
danger which is, I fear, impending overbher.—( Cheers. ) Sir, part of the measure pays off three debts.—( Laughter. )
I understand the Noble Lord to bring forward this question in (Mr. Hudson here observed that it was only intended to
from all party feeling. I understand him to pay Ml' the private debts. )—But, says the lion. Gentleman,
a spirit free
in hostile rivalry with this will make the coast clear if they pay off the pr'vate debts.—
bring it forward, not as a measure
a (Laughter.) I understand, therefore, that the first
application
the proposal of her 'Majesty's Government, but as
of
be advancedf tI,T•
by the Noble Lord towards the mea- the money to from it,Treasury would be to
contribution suggested
sues that were deemed to be calculated to diminish the suffer- pay off the creditors of the railways. even though they were not
bags of Ireland. Sir. in that spirit it is my intention to dis- holders of shares. —)Laughter.) Some railway companies were
at present borrowing money at 5 per cent. (Mr. Hudson re-
cuss it. lam the more inclined to do so-, because the vote
which I shall give will be upon the merits of the question marked that the Great Western Company only paid 4i•per
founded, and will be influenced by the consideration of those cent.) The Hon. Gentleman says—See what I have done;
consequences which the Noble Lord indicatedwis the possible re- look at the state of the money-inarket. I have been able to
sult of the measure. Sir, the proposal is, that the credit of the raise a capital of ten millions within three or four months.
But, he says, don't suppose that I have a share in any Irish
country should be plec'ged to the amount of sixteen millions for
railway. I have no interest whatever in any Irish railway.—
the purpose of providing employment for the poor of Ireland.
Sir, the extent to which it is proposed so to engage the credit (Laughter.) Is it not a fact, however, that a great portion
of this country, justifies, and, in my opinion, necessitates some of the shareholders in Irish railways were Englishmen?—
reference to the financial condition and financial prospects of art Hear, hear. The Hou. Member for Lynn said, "See what
the country. Sir, the financial condition of the eountry, judg- enormous profit the construction of Irish railways will
ing from the last returns, made up to the beginning of Janu- be to the English railways. Can it be supposed that a railway
ary last, shows the financial condition of the country, no doubt, with a terminus in Waterford, Drogheda, or Dublin, will be of
to be in a prosperous state. It would appear from no use to English railways ?" But if this undoubted and
those returns, that the amount of revenue received within the enormous profit to English railways be the cousequence of the
near—not of course ending the sth of April, but on the sth of construction of Irish railways, on what ground do they now
'January last—that the amount of revenue received within the come forward and ask Government for assistance?—(Cheers. )
year far exceeded the estimate which was made by my Right Suppose they are deriving 10 per cent. on the railways in this
Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. That revenue country, and that an extraordinary increase of profit is ex-
was partly derived, no doubt, from sources which my Right pected on the completion of the Irish railwae s, why do they ask
Hon. Friend could not calculate, but, speaking generally of money at 3i per cent. for which they
sought to pay five or
the ordinary sources of revenue for the year ending on the Ist 6 per cent.?—(Cheers.) Was not that
of January last, the receipts were greater than the most sanguine cent., or 25,000/. on every 1,000,000/.?—( Cheers.) if that be
expectation could tire.. ant:wonted._ (Hoar, hear.) Sir, I the case, then do not say it is merely pledging the public credit;
think any Right Hon. Friend calculated that the amount of it is a direct bonus on Irish railways.—(Cheers. I, there.
revenue, for the year ending sth April, 1847, would be about fore, am of opinion that no claim whatever has been established
51,900,000/. for Government assistance. Even if they were not sharehold-
Mr. GOULBURSO,OOO,OOO/. era in these railways, they would have no right to claim Go-
Sir R. PEEL—Yes, 50,900,000/.—that would be about LesTemesnotroassistance fordannnudnoduebrttoadkoinvgd which they stated pos-
-51,000,000/. The net receipts of the year ending thensthnootf
___( d clearhaenayr. ibeentereoseof
wi veil!: 3hicaxrboett.
Hear, ) If the statements
January last (being the receipts to the sth of Januaryado.
an made, they were an inducement to English shareholders to come
the sth of April, were not less than 53,000,0 lo boloßl ht forward and embark their capital in these railways, and my
excess of 2,000,0001. upon the estimate of Ty g
The Honourable Friend ( Mr. Hudson) should come forward
Honourable Friend.—(Cries of " Hear, hear. 9 10,000/ , liberally, and head the list.—(Cheers and laughter.) But if,
balance in the Exchequer was not less than , notwithstanding all these objections, it be a great measure,
nditur.e
and the total amount of excess of revenue over expset_ e
re-
calculated as the Noble Lord (Bentinck) says, to encourage
was, I think, about 2,800,060/. So far, therefore, h industrial enterprise in Ireland—calculated as a great Mew u-
a ncerned,
oeipts and disbursements up to the present year are co
went to work out the social amelioration of the condition of
but with
the financial condition of the country is prosperous ;
the that country—l am not disposed to be diverted from the attain-
reference to the proposal of the Noble Lord, pledgingfor our merit of such desirable results by the financial difficulties that
country to the amount of 16,000,000 L, the matter ear
ban
may be its accompaniment ; but it is because I have a doubt
consideration is rather the prospects of the coming ye) t
Sir, that neither the advantages predicted, nor a considerable
the results of the year that has past.—(Hear,
Govern- portion of them, will result from the adoption of the measure,
the Noble Lord at the head of her Majesty
C'll upon end that the financial difficulties to which I have adverted will
went, or the Chancellor of the Exchequer, wsl y,ovn.
Govern- certainly be its attendant, that has decided the vote which I
an early day, state to us the view which her Majestty
iala .
re shall give to-night.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Member for
ment take of the financial state of the country. r
S. he comingPP- Shrewsbury has alluded to the mistakes of the Chancellor of the
bend they can hardly calculate upon the receipts of tExchequer, and has endeavoured to show the great mistakes
as the
financial year being greater, perhaps not so great,
to con- made by the Right Hon. Gentleman ; but I think there was one
receipts of the present year. It is hardly possible.. mistake into which he himself fell. The Honourable
ns in the
ceive that, considering the high price of provirseitoores Gentleman was referring to the inferiority of Ireland
, par-
country, considering the depressed state of roan: to England, and was stating what a strange contrast
tahe expected
titularly in some great branches, considering there existed between the currency of Scotland and Ireland.
ofactures—
high price of one of the great raw materials of mhaen
high
ri„ I consider that as a most fallacious test of the prosperity of the
I mean cotton—considering the effect which t country. It has been the evil of Scotland that it has nut
of Europe,
of provisions thoughout the whole continent
ited States of increased its circulation. I believe that no country in the
and the high price of provisions in the U world has made more rapid advances than Scotland has,
onsumption in
America must produce upon the power of.
c's hardly possi- and yet by looking at the comparison of the amount
different quarters of Europe and America—it 1
rd circum- of the present currency with what it was thirty years since,
ble for us to believe that this concurrence of untoward
the it would be found that the factsof
Sir, as to the case were decidedly in
stances will not materially affect the revenue.
to calculate opposition to the arouments of the Hon. Member for Shr;:
expenditure of the coming year, we shall Have
respect to the bury. The Hon. Member stated that in Ireland the amountw sof
upon no ordinary expenditure. I believe, 1
estimates, notes in circulation averaged only 1/. per head, whereas ' in
military estimates, the naval, army, and ordnance,ooo/. I Scotland it was equal to 16/ • head. .. pet
there will be an addition of not less than that Mr. DISRAELI—No no.
I beUeve
do not quarrel with that estimate estimate Sir R. PEEL—This showed' the necessity for indulgence
no Goverment would propose an 'increasedbite
necessity. on the part of Hon. Members in alluding to s weelles
of that kind without a deep sense of P
joumpla,int •, on the vioualy delivered. I certainly understood the /lion. Memberpeee
I am not alluding to it, therefore, by way 0! .
lit with Govern- to say that the allowance for Scotland was at the rate of 161.
contrary, I am ready to incur the respoesibiastYifie _
d by public per head.
merit in taking that additional vote, if it is j
there is an actual Mr. DISRAELI—Not of currency.
affairs. But with respect to that estimatnet,tot
anticipate that Sir R. PEEL—Then I hey e mistaken the statements of the
increase proposed of 400,000/., while I
ca
estimates. I Hon. Member. I have not the slightest wash to misquote the ex-
there will be any reduction in the miscellaneous expenditure on the pressions of any Hon. Member.—( Hear. ) I was going, however,
apprehend that there will be an additional expenditure will to advert to that which is, after all, the main test of the pros
charge of debt, and thus the ordinar annual_
yofthe present.—( Hear, perity of a nation. The lion. Member for Shrewsbury says
charge exceed the expenditure the future. I that he admits the truth of the abstract doctrine, that it is
to
hear. ) Then, Sir, with respect
acingaccount of the better to leave commercial enterprise free of all State inter-
am prepared to expect an increasoe_
that I ference. I think that doctrine is not only practically sure, but.
necessary expenses, for the purpose, f
y for the purpose of roiti- in the case of England, I think it is also perfectly practicable,
am prepared and ready to do,
name "n't oversahelm Ireland,— The prospect of commercial gain is alone the feeling which
gating those horrors which at
Prescient to a full expenditure influences the conduct or enters into the viers of tt.e specu-
( Hear, hear.) lam prepared to cdon
w to this country in common lator—(Hear, hear)—he calculates upon a certain amount of
—to a'liberal expenditure—to afford
e that the necessary result profit, and the number of men whom he has to employ ;
with the other relief, but I anticipate
derable deficit, comparing these and other considerations it is which induce him to de-
will be this—it will cause a
c".l
cessary expenditure. Sup.. termine whether he shall speculate in a certain enterprise or
the revenue of next year with the necessary
aalleh
upon Ireland, it is not. The doctrine of non-interference is not only perfectly
posing this terrible calamity had f
have been enabled to esti- true, but also perfectly applicable. But the Hon. Member for
possible that the Noble Lord might
of revenue, but if the amount Shrewsbury says that those doctrines are not perfectly appli-
mate some considerable excess_reland should at all approach the cable in a country like Ireland, because, there, political con •
of expenditure required ford
ay the Noble Lord, namely, some siderations overpower commercial speculations. The State
SUM that has been estimatei
is still highly probable that there has misgoverned Ireland, and, therefore, the State should in- '
9, or possibly
11 luilliT'Aptril, 1848, a deficit of not less than terfere in commercial enterprise.—( Hear, hear.) That is an
will be, on the sth
p inn the actual expenditure with the argument I wish to protest against. Ido not think it is for
7 or 8 millions,
Iccbmeciearve you will have to follow up that ex- the advantage of Ireland that political coneiderations should
receipts. But,and liberal expenditure, to enable the overpower those considerations.
1 r e I have heard several speeches
penditure by a a g l
the foundation of a better food than from Hon Members who have addressed the House in favour of
le of Ireland to ay
hitherto existed
.—(Hear,
h t have . •
•_(Hear, hear.) the measure, and, from those speeches, lam convinced that if
that upon whic
therefore, will be in having proceeded, the statements made by those Hon. Members be true,
t object,
Our great object,
to meet the present emergency to eon- they arc such as should induce the Irish landlords to encourage,
by absolute
nee
hat th easures will be. I h tl • from their
ope le), own resources, the commerce of the country.—
skier minutely ‘v • wise, and cand'd dl'
weed in a i , anliberal spirit, ( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the Member for Lynn said,
will be mane
foundation of that social regeneration
shall lay the , so far " Complete the Irish railroads, complete the 1,5011 miles
suchheas of the peoPie. is cuncerned•—(Hear, hear.) of railroads, and see what will be the benefit to the Irish land-
sustenance
rotoking at these measures and exertions on the part of the lords. The land upon every square mile adjoining the railway
and the country, considering the great expendi- will be improved, every acre within the vicinity of that rail
Government aired, and considering that, to
will be red
rental
will . meet the way will be improved by a positive addition to the value of the
tore that
emergencY, it
require a sum of not less than seven rental, taking it at the lowest estimate of 103. per acre. The
present
.11. ns it is hardly possible that the future finan- whole number of acres so improved in the annual rental of
or eight no, 10 ,_
f the country can be • •
gratifying.—( Hear 103 will amount to 1,900,0001. ; and this increase
ciao condition o
~ .
with these financial pros tof rental would cause in the purchase price of the land an ad-
Now,pec s before . .
hear.) i t inquire what is the 000.0001." If thin, then, is the profit to be der.ved
u 3, let us 'nstate of the mono market. present and damn of 23
'landlords b the construction of these rail wawa why
probable future That inquiry by the Irish
s a smile, but I U 8 the make these railroads?—(Cheers.) Have I 'not Ye.
may possibly excite e term money-market do they not
means neither more nor less than what ' htcall upon the Irish landowners in the vicinity of these
in the sense that are rig to
Public the can borrow so give every , ficility to an enterprise, from the bene-
the terms upon
which
the public wants money for the railways, -
which they are to derive the sum of 23,00w000/.?
purpose of supply
ing
should contrac.—t wants.—( Hear hear.) It is ficial effects of
reference to the Galway fisheries, the Hun. Mem-
roposed that thepublic another loan for the Now, with
n measure. It will be Stamford (the Marquis of Granby) said that the people
purpose of a certain measure. a burden upon the ber for
provided for in some ould go out in their boats, and bring on their return
people which inns(
Bear, hear.) \N
li way or other by of Galway could go
of herrings to the value of 4,000/., the
public securities.--,
'Centse then, 1 find that the with them a quart 1
saidlwhat benefit •
of a single night; and, ie, a it would
Three-and-a-Half per
if they were enabled to take their fish to
were at not less than par, which were, even a short time ago, as be to the Irish people, .
of raj - Il• of
1 ways, am e ispose
present not more than arts of the country by means
high as 100/., are at 911. Calculating other pa
the last 'instead of having to lay idle for three or four nights,
that price with thosesix or seven months, that it at once,
of
less thanto the value of 4,000/. on each night. Are not
shows& depression of notnow look
4or 5 per cent. So much for and losing fish .
derations of great commercial importance, and
funded property. Let us
h landownei s embark their property in such
find in the case of the Exchequer-bills that they are at a dis- should not the Irish
Their land will be improved, and
count, or at all events, only some 53. premium. Now, of course, valuable undertakings . 4
•es will be eneourage
the state of the money-market is a most material considera. lirofitable fisheries will
they have got no money.
tion in discussing the question of the Noble Lord. Then, Mr. HUDSON
'EL— The taon. .al ember for Sunderland says they
t the - Sir R. Pk,
Why, there is the same power that raised
._ .

of the land, by advising, with the hearty consent of the land- y
owners theinselvea the adoption of some measure to facilitate
the purchase o land upon fair and equitable terms.—(Cheers.)
Nothing is more easy than for you to do that. You have al-
ready done it one case—the case of the Shannon navigation.
li, that case the claims have been left to the decision cf the
Shannon ComtuiEsioners. Their awards have been so juts
and made in so fair a spirit, that not a single appeal has
been made against their decision. The same principle
is carried out in France and Belgium, and I earnestly hope
that some me asure will be adopted for the purpose of simpli-
fying the titles to property in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Well,
then, it has been said that political or religious differences
would prevent the people acting in concert in the formation of
these works of utility. They should be invited to take part
in the concerns of their common country, and all these
religious and political animosities will pass away -when they
find that it is their interest and their duty to combine together
to encourage these works, and to discourage all those party
feelings and religious animosities.—( Cheers.) But let the
people suppose that they can do nothing for themselves, and
that the Government is prepared to do everything for them,
these animosities will continue to prevent the appli-
sation of the capital and energies of the people
to the promotion of works of commercial enterprise.
Thus they will obtain double advantages by leaving those
works to be constructed by the means of individual enterprise,
and, at the same time, encouraging great social improvements
among the people. The Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Shrewsbury called upon the State to snake those railways ;
but what advantages were to acorue in return? There is, he
said, a field of coal at hallow more extensive than any coal-field
in operation in England. " Make a railway," he said, " and not
five years will elapse before that field of coal will be explored,
and its produce carried along the line proposed to be con-
structed to various parts of Ireland. It would be transported
to Dublin, and to the other large consuming towns in the
country." He said further, that it would be found as important
and lucrative a coal-field as any in England. But why do
political considerations overpower commercial considerations?
Why do not men of capital, and men of sense, estimate the
probable produce of that coal-field, and calculate what amount
of toll would be received for the transmission of that produce
over the line?—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman also said
that the fisheries will receive a new stimulus—that new resi-
dents will be brought into the country, and that the trade of
the country will be increased. But why are not all these results
still obtained by the commercial instead of political enterprise?
I firmly believe, that if you do not overpower Irish enterprise
by the application of English capital by Government interfer-
ence, I firmly believe, that at no remote period, that those
works will be carried out by the enterprise of the country.—
( Hear, hear.) If I really believed the financial condition of
the country would permit it, and that it would be decidedly for
the advantage of Ireland, a great part of my, objections
would be removed, but I have most serious doubts
that if you fetter Irish enterprise by the applica-
tion of English capital, as proposed in the Noble
Lord's Bill, I do doubt very much whether it would be for the
benefit of the Irish people.—( Hear, hear.) Yet, I admit that
there have been interferences by the State for the purpose of
promoting public works. In the last year, when I was the
First Lord of the Treasury, I consented to advance some
money to an Irish railway on the same principle upon which
advances for commercial purposes are made. I am not at all
prepared to say whether, owing to this calamity which has
visited Ireland, that it would be unwise under certain restric-
tions, and under certain guarantees for the repayment of the
advances, to make such loans.—(Cheers from Lord George
Beutinck.) But the extent and encouragement which
the Noble Lord proposes to give, will, I believe,
not be so beneficial to the country, atid to the
districts through which the lines would pass, as he
anticipates ; and, moreover, will not give such tall-
gible security as we have a right to expect. The only security
that you have is, in cases of default, the seizure of the railway.
—(Cheers.) If the shareholders in those lines to which ad-
vances have been made refuse to contribute their share of the
money borrowed, or the interest upon it, you have no other
option than to take possession of the railway, and finish it at
the public expense ( Hear) —or in a case of absolute
failure, you have no remedy against the shareholders.
The remedy is not against the shareholders, bat against the
old iron rails.—( Laughter. ) In speaking thus, lam stating
the views which I have long held. lam not adverse to the
occasional application of capital for the purpose of encouraging
enterprise both in this country and in Ireland.—(Cheers.)
What 1 sincerely deprecate is such supposed encouragement as
shall prevent individual enterprise, and those who ought to rest
upon individual enterprise, by such an interference as shall pa-
ralyse that enterprise, by rendering it valueless, and conse-
quently inoperative, as I think the advance which any such sum
as that proposed by the Government, whose interference would
be carried to some extent as to its application, could not have
any other effect than that of paralysing individual enterprise.
Sir, I know the Noble Lord will say that my estimate is incorrect;
that 7,003,0001. will be required, independently of the capital
proposed to be expended by his measure for the relief of the
distress in Ireland, under the powers of the Bill already passed
by this House, as his measure, by finding employment for the
people, will reduce the necessity of making such large advances.
Now, admitting in the first place, the men who will be employed
are generally Irishmen, and not Englishmen from this country,
yet I greatly doubt whether the passing of the Bill of the Noble
Lord would immediately diminish that expenditure which will
be absolutely necessary for the relief of the destitue. Now I
hold in my hand a map of the railways which have received the
sanction of Parliament, of those which have been completed, and
of those in the course of execution. By this map it avpears that
it verifies the observation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
who, speaking generally, said that railways were sanctioned by
Parliament mainly for the east coast. I only fiad two, of com-
paratively small extent, passing to the westward. The first is
from Sligo to the Shannon, the capital of which is, I think,
100,0001; and the second from Limerick, through Killaloe to
Ennis, the capital of which was 300,000/. But, with respect
to the west, there are no Bills for the construction of railways
through it, except one in the county of Clare; nor in Donegal,
Roscommon, Leitrim, Sligo (with the exception of that small
railway for which the estimate was 100,0001.), Mayo, Galway,
Clare (with the exception of the railway from Limerick to
Ennis), and through a great part of the county of Limerick.
But no provision would be made for the employment of the
destitute persons in the immediate neighbourhood of the line
which would be made. In the returns read the other evening
by the lion. Gentleman, it appeared that the persons who
would be employed on railways were those residing in the im-
mediate neighbourhood of the lines. If that be so, first of all,
the removal of men from Connaught to work at the lines
would take him away from his family, and that would be a great
misfortune, if they numbered as many as ten. That is no
small evil. Who would provide far their sustenance during his
absence? Certainly it would not do away with demands on the
Government from the west, which would still be heavy notwith-
' standing the employment which would be given under the Noble
Lori's Bill. I was saying that I have for a long period enter-
tamed sincere doubts whether you might not carry Govern-
ment interference too far, so far as to injure commercial enter-
prise. Now, I wish the House could be fully aware of the
history of the inland navigation of Ireland. Inland navigation
in Ireland was promoted and encouraged by the Government.
It is necessary that I should refer to this point, although I may
trespass a short time longer on the attention of the House,
and I thank the House for the attention with which it has
listened to me.—(Loud cheers.) I wish to present to the
House the contrast between enterprise encouraged and
fostered by the Government, and enterprise undertaken
under every difficulty and discouragement, and what was
taken for individual gain by individual enterprise.
The Irish Parliament greatly encouraged and fostered
inland navigation. What were the grounds on which public
aid was granted? Exactly the same on which we are asked to
give the enormous public aid sought by this Bill.—( Loud
cheers.) By the 23d of George 11., a corporation was ap-
pointed to carry on inland n:ivigation. What was intended to
be done? T. take a canal directly across Ireland, in the con-
fident hope that the returns would be most enormous—so enor-
mous that the prosperity of Ireland would be promoted, and it
would have been most beneficial if it had been left in the hands
of individual shareholders. By this Act of Parliament it was
stated " that these works of inland navigation, being for the
public benefit, by encouraging tillage, and giving employ-
ment to the poor, it is fit and reasonable that they should be
carried on at the charge of the kingdom, by grants from
the public funds " In 1787, then, it was found that the works
had progressed so badly, that it was decided that they would
not ultimately prove advantageous to the company. It was
said that the system of granting public money was perilous and
abortive. The officers were appointed under that Act at
salaries as large as 5001. to superintend and control the works,
but the result of their management was that they made two
canals running parallel to each other.—( Hear, and laughter.)
The Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer re-
ferred to the wo canals—the Royal and the Great Canal,
the original estimate for the first of which was, I think, 180,000/.
The circumstances of the canal caused an inquiry to be made
in 1811. Now what was the position in whicn this canal, sup-
ported and fostered by public money, was found ? Why we
found that 186,0001. of the public money had been granted,
though the original capital was stated to be only 19,t,00.3/.
( Hear, hear.) And while the Government had advanced
186,0001., it appeared that 182.000/., had been expended
otherwise. The increase was 15,0001., while the mainte-
nance of the permanent works was 11,000/., leaving only
4,000/. to cover the whole debt and expenditure of the corn-
pany.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") This was a work
which was stated at the time to be a great national
undertaking, yet the unfortunate results I have given
are the fruits of the company being, fostered by the Government.
The company to which I have referred, at the very time it was
in this state, made dividends without any profits, and even
when they were obliged to pay not only the interest on their
debt, but also their present expenses, by fresh loans.—( Hear,
hear.) The same results have been shown in the case of the
Caledonian Canal as what I have shown in the present case.
Both the Caledonian as well as the Royal Canals were great
national undertakings, yet at the very time 1 have referred to,
the latter company told me, as I was then Secretary of Ireland,
that unless they could get 100,0001. more, their whole affairs
would go to ruin.—(liear,hear. ) Parliament granted the canal
50,0001. more, which was added to the 183,0001., making a total
sum advanced of 232,0001.—(Cries of " Hear, hear")—but
what is the present position of the company I cannot say ; but
since then I trust its affairs have been under better manage-
went. This is the result of Government interference.—
( Hear, hear.) Sir, I cannot leave this part of the subject
without adverting to what has appeared in the admirable re-
port of the late Mr. Drummond, in much of which I agree,
anticipating as it did many of the improvements and suggestions
since made in that report, in which is given the results of the
Government interference in the Royal Canal. There is also an
account of the indomitable efforts and enterprise of one indi-
vidual within the last twenty years in supplying all the south,
the south-west, and many other parts of Ireland, with means of
internal communication. 'I his account affords a contrast be-
tween the results of a scheme like the present under considera-
tion, fostered by the Government, and those of individual en-
terprise. The one to which I refer, is the establishment of a
regular system of cars between the provincial towns of Ireland.
The Hon. Member road an extract from the report in
question. It set out with stating, that about twenty years
ago, while there were coaches in a few of the leading roadsieu of
ce.
Ireland, the cross-roads and small towns had no corve_t
up—
an
The country was in this state until an individualtook
individual who had no advantages from connexion with the
country—no great capital or influence.
fHe was a foreigner—
an Italian, a native of Milan, who cau
.not even sp
with one
eak the
language of the country. Signor Biancon tried first
car, which he started between Clonmel and t
Clare. H
his He had no-
thing but his industry and integrity to depend onfot• success—
but these were sufficient, for he soon increased number of
cars until he had established them all over the province
of Munster. From th nee he extended them into Leitrim and
Sligo, and throughout Connaught generally, until they occu-
pied all the north-west parts of the kingdom. He had now
ninety-four public conveyances, and the distance which they
travelled exceeded three thousand miles.—(Cheers.)
These results had been achieved in districts which were the foci
c
of agrarian disturbance in districts where life and property were
not secure, where party processions and religiousl
feelingso
i
ran high. Notwithstanding this state of things, M. n

had carried out his system everywhere without hindrance cr
have got no money. -Y, --
isturbance, and was popular wherever he went. In the face
10,000,000!. ital is not in- d.
a few weeks since. —(Cheers ). If theser railways are
what is the reason that British ca
so beneficial,
them of the greatest difficulties had individual enterprise succeeded ;
he established himself securely in those foci of agrarian outrage
?--(Cheers. ) The Hon. Member for Shrews-
vested i
burythe shareholders of
y thatpolitical considerations haveoverwhelmed the or-
where life and property were not secure, and when there was,
dinarsy:cosmmercial considerations, and that
every discouragement to the enterprise in which he had em-
barked. His confidence had not been abused. B ' .t and
lrelan . find a great difficulty in obtaining possession of the
land, le consequence of the complicated nature- of
simplify the active exertions he had succeeded, and
popular with all classes of the eople.2( y ju..
titles to land in that country.—the title to the. land. Then I would say,
Hasenaor,t
honealyr. rfeilbiust,
of obtaining the
continued the Right Hon. Baron Pet, is a contrast to the cases
means of
It has been proved that it is to the interest of the
landowners to give their land for the purpose of making
that have gone before to the schemes fostered by Government
these
support. By the exertion of individual enterprise, this
railways, and
.I meet that objection of the great di`liculties the
Irish companies; have to contend with in obtaining possession foreigner, who did not understand the language of the country,

had thus carried out this great means of internal communication.
Exert yourselves in the same way, and you will add to the value
of your landed property, and advance the interests and the hap-
piness of the people.—( Hear, hear.) If you will imitate the
example set you by this foreigner, and contrast it
with the examples of the schemes fostered by the
Leeislat ere—if you will forget your religious diffe- -T.7;-:,,5,
rences, and let a sense of the overwhelming ..,.---.-
visitation under which your countty is truly suffering, impress v :..-It,
on your minds—if you devote all your exertions' to mitigate ~4 r
this calamity, and to improve the social circumstances of the
millions dependent on you, not only for their present but
their future welfare, it is my firm babel that you will do more
to promote the interests and happiness of your native land,
than if, abandoning yourselves to misery and regret, and
despair, you placed your confidence iu Government grants,
and trusted in your difficulties to Government aid. (The Right
Hon. Baronet sat down amidst loud and general cheering.)
Lord G. BENTINCK rose amidst loud cries of "Divide,
divide." He said that the Right Honourable Baronet's only
stock argument appeared to be M. Bianconi.—(Hear, hear.)
They stood as the stock in trade of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man. He was sure that it was in the recollection of every
gentleman in that House that, when in the year 1839, the
Government of Lord Melbourne proposed a scheme for as-
sisting railways in Ireland, the Right Hon. Gentleman gave
word for word what he (Lord G. Bentinek) had heard during
the last half hour, and which were the arguments he then
used against the Goverment of that day. If private enter-
prise, said the Right Hon. Gentleman, were to take its course,
they would have railways just as well and flourishing as they
had their private cars. But seven years had since elapsed, and
what had been the result? Why, whilst in this country they
had 2,600 miles of railway, in Belgium there were only 375
miles of railway completed. In Austria and Germany they
had 3,000 miles of railway, and in the United States of Ame•
rica they had 3,300 miles of railway. In Ireland, where en-
terprise had been left unaided by the Government—(lmmense
cheering)—they had about 123 miles of railway. Would the
House listen to the heavy policy of the Right Hon. Baronet?
They were well aware—although many might not
be of his opinion that as the Government aid
had succeeded in Belgium, as Government aid had succeeded
in Austria and Germany, as Government aid had succeeded
in the United States of America, 'that he would call the aid of
Government for the benefit of Ireland, and not to supersede
private enterprise—(Cheers)—for that be never proposed to
do. The very spirit, the very principle of the Bill was, that
it should not supersede private enterprise, but that Govern-
ment should come in to aid it, to stimulate it.—(Cheers.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman had entered at great length on
the question of the finances of the country, and thus, as he
(Lord Geo. Bentinck) imagined, was proceeding to show them
how he (Lord Geo. Bentinck) would by his proposition inflict
a heavy tax upon the country. He had listened long and
patiently, but he could not gather from the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman how it was that a single tax, or a single burden of any
description, would be imposed on the country by his proposition.
The Right Hon. Gentleman had told them that they would
require seven millions sterling for the relief of Ireland, and
that for such a purpose some imposition must be forced on the
country. The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed entirely to
forget that seven millions was to be paid for unproductive
works.—( Cheers.) It was to be paid for the
feeding of the people of Ireland without any
return, and he (Lord G. Bentinck) proposed against his pro-
position to spend four millions sterling of money to be raised
upon the credit of the Government, to which two other millions
would be raised by share capital stimulated by the aid of the
Government, and of that six millions he was prepared to show
that not one-fourth'or one-half, but two-thirds, would be ex-
pended in labour. So that out of the seven millions which the
Right Hon. Gentleman proposes as the sum which it would
be necessary to raise to maintain the people of Ireland, he had
a right so say that he would deduct four millions by his scheme.
Then the Right Hon. Gentleman intimated to the House that
the Exchequer-bills were just wavering between a pre-
mium and depreciation, and it was upon the principle that they
would have to raise the price of Exchequer-bills, the Right
Hon. Gentleman showed his caution and prudence, for he
forgot to tell the House to what extent the interest of the Ex-
chequer-bills would have to be raised. He was too prudent to
tell them to what extent the raising of the four millions would
affect them, because it was not a question with the House
and country how much the four millions would cause the funds
to fall, or how much the raising of these four millions
would make the rates of premium on Exchequer-bills,
but how much the raising of those four millions would reduce
the premium of Exchequer-bills. The Right. Hon. Gentle-
tleman prudently forebore from telling the House to what ex-
tent the raising of these four millions sterling would throw
down the funds, and the rate of premium of the Exchequer-
bills. He meant to say that it would reduce the premium of
Exchequer-hills to the same extent, but whether it would re-
duce them one farthing per cent., or one halfpenny per cent.,
it was impossible to say. But they would suppose that the
Right Hon. Gentleman expected that the raising of the four
millions sterling to be expended in profitable employment
in this country would cause the funds to fall to 85, and thus
raise the interest of money to about 3% per cent., and that
they would have in consequence to raise the interest of Ex-
chequer-bills t,., per cent., what would the cost to the country
amount to? 'Counting that upon the whole 27,000,000 of Ex-
chequer-bills, they would not expend 270,0001. per annum;
and what did they hear last night from the Hon. Gentleman
the Chancel or of the Exchequer? That their staff alone, the
maintainite, of their army of 14,587 men, cost 78,000/. per
month. The Hon. Gentleman, shrinking from the dread of
incurring on the country the necessity of paying 270,000/. a
year more for Exchequer -bills, thought nothing of 78,0001.
per month to be paid under the plan he advocated and sup-
ported for the maintenance of this idle staff—not of destitute
shareholders—and he certainly knew that they were not a party
of destitute poor.—(Hear, hear.) The whole of this attack
was for what the Right Hon. Gentleman called the non-govern-
ment of Ireland ; but he would say whether those reports were
not spread for the credit of themselves. He was aware that
this relief had been granted, but he was not at all aware that
the Right Hon. Gentleman now at the head of Irish affairs
was Secretary for Ireland in the year 1789.—(Laughter.) Nor
did he at all understand how the Royal Canal, which was
begun in 1788, could in any way affect that report. This was
an inference which he drew from the circumstances, and there-
fore, it was that he warned the House of the tenor of that
report. It should be recollected that this was a parallel case,
and that in the borrowing of the 4,000,000/. he had stated a
case to the House which would amply repay it for the
advancement of the money. The Noble Lord then read a
series of extracts to show his position, and to show what was
the position of the several individuals who were disposed for the
revival of the company. He was quite aware that there was
much of energy and plausibility in the proposal of the Right
(Hon. Gentleman. But the Right Hon. Gentleman, in the
conclusion of his speech, had said he would allow that these
railways would be of use to Ireland. But what was the
statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman T—why, that this
would be the wiser measure. This was the difficulty in the
way of an adjustment for the affairs of Ireland. The grant
was made in 1781, and the canal was only begun in 1789. He
stated this, not for the sake of argument, but because he was
anxious that the difficulties under which the Government
was placed should be done away with, and because he wished
to answer the arguments of the Hon. Member for Stamford, and
because he felt that the great relief was to be obtained by turn-
ing other railways to the natural source. He was quite aware
that there was a great difficulty, but yet that difficulty ought
to be met. His great object was to extend railways to Galway,
so as to afford plenty of employment for the fishermen. It
appeared by the returns that upwards of 15,0001. per mile had
been expended, and that had been within the last four years.
The Commissioners had made a report on the 23d June, stating
these circumstances, in which it was shown that these
data were unsatisfactory. Then, as to the machinery, he
confessed that it was singularly defective, and if
it were proceeded in he should feel it his duty to bring the
matter before the Legislature. He was only surprised that
the cumbrousness of the machinery should have se interfered
with its working, for he had hoped that the Hon. Member
for Kilkenny would have cleared up this difficulty, for he firmly
believed that from a quarter to a half of the population of Ire..
land would be thrown into destitution unless their wants were
provided for. This point had been mooted during the last
seven years, and its resolution affected the whole of the popu-
lation of Ireland, and had, in fact, produced a social revolution.
The great difficulty appeared to be to make this loan, but from,
the financial statement that had been made by his Right Hon.
Friend, he did not anticipate any objection to his own projects
It was, however, evident that the formation of these railway,
would lead to the consumption of excisable articles. He wad
not aware of the precise position in which the two countries-
stood, but of this he was assured that from 600,000/. to
700,000/. would be added to the expenditure of the country:
.1 nat exp..)sition heti now rini the gauntlet of three Chancellors 00
the Eac, ever and a late Pr;me Minister, and he thought, therefor el
that they might take it for granted that no man in that House we*
prepared to oppose it. They might, therefore, conslder the propos!:
tion of the Bight Hon. Gentleman to be this—to prevent the iniditioei
of 650,0001. to the revenue of the country without the imposition of'
any new tax whatsoever. The Right lion. Ger:Hely:an followed in th
track of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and confirmed his statemea
that there were no railways in Ireland excepting on the eastere coast
lmatts didel 11
4What, no railways , xcepting en the eastern coast, where, as th
exchequer or the xchequer assured them, there was no distress ',+
It might be true that the completed railways, and those now
ut
process of construction, were chiefly en the eastern coast,
the
not occur to the Right Hon. Gentleman that perhaps
of distress might be owing to the fact of railways being already coi /
strutted there ? There remained sums lines to COltstruct on that pa '
-
of the country, as seventy miles of railway from Dublin to Wexfor i
seventy or seventy-five miles from Drogheda to Portadown, thirty e
forty miles from Belfast to Navan and Coleraine--these lines all ; i
mained to be constructed on the eastern coast ; the other railwa i
which yet remained to be constructed extended north-west, soul. s
west, and due west, and there it was universally admitted that t sl
greatest distress prevailed. What part of Ireland had slaw i,
a blacker picture Of misery than the county of C..rk ? and yet to te
city of Cork no less than four railways diverged. There was a
other railway to Athlone—there was a Bill before Parliament, whi 5
he was informed was sure to pass, as it was ul.opposed—a Bill ire,
Athlone to Galway and Roscommon. Now, his Bill not only pit
vided for the Acts already obtained, but for those also whteh were
be afterwards obtained. There was also a branch line from Dublin ;
Mull:near, and a Bill bad been obtained last year to Sligo, the Act pa:
' ing without opposition, but from the incompetency of the parties •!,
raise the money the railway was abandoned. Ile was sure th,
if the Bill he had had the honour of intreduci ,
to the House were passed, the line to Sligo wot
aga n be brought before Parliament and carried.—(Hear, heal
Then they would have railways to every part of Ireland ; On
would be no county in Ireland which would not be traversed by C
railway. 'l lie Right Hon. Gentleman tom the House that the
would he great difficulty in raising the 4,000,0001. sterling per arms -
without lowering the funds. Raising 4,000,000/.1 Why,
_i_n_!o?".. el
war, they had for many years raised not less than li*oo!).,o.o,togiii
annum, but the thought might have occurred° to
ifr lug!
deposits shut up in the Court of Chancery,, waitingthe
next five ye.
Baronet that last year there was no less than lio,oof,ororstseirnling,
to pass through Parliament, and
oo li
comllPlTatitonwoolfildth
erethe93,
Hinds
ait d t?i J u Whyf
t ' ,
i1,„2121i,e0h00,0h0.0,11.
alreadywotilel breeceex,,p;dethluep.,,, A tcht,..
the operation of this
t retence, then, was there fors aying th
following' year. 97' WhawhereP it was calculated there was an army
In a country like this,
could not raise 4,000,0001. for the impros .
the month of December,
saving of 50,008,0001., theylloan
foods rwt
1845, the
men ted when 20,000,0001. were raised for t t'
to any gextent affec
Indian slaves.
tof real without owering the funds ? The funds were r .
emancipa • tion of the Rest slaves. The Right Hon. Bator i
said, also, that private enterprise, even when supported by the 1!.
fe of Government, had always failed in Ireland. lie wot.
l,lennehim to tax hie ineinory, and to refer to the years between hf
and ls2B (and lie would find a report on the subject on the table ti
the House), when ate outlay of 140,0001. was made is tau counties!
like
Galway, Mayo, Cork, and Kerry, and th% revenue is
these towns alone had risen to
spent 11,0001 per annu $
It was said Government had something h
half upon the Caledonian Canal, and the invcstmenat hillaidlli
pornoaviedid s.
dead loss to the State. But what was the Cause of its proving a dee
loss? Why, because Government did not go upon the principle f, •
giving assistance to private enterprise, but acted upon the princio
of speculating on their own accouut. By the measure, however,l4 fore the house, no Such attempt would be made, but it would rath ,
gwcii uponeernel
be Member
a sle p
fiors
passed,
principle inc• stimulatingultdo ld
etai
llpe them
ol:a
51; ieorl,ivoy
oaodt ea
myenterprise.
agoo.
tll,
Irish
lieil Lincolnl eh
aoc,:),11.
that
fTh
railwaytthis
isi
lße.ii
under his management, 7,000 of whom would be plat ,
on the Belfast, Drogheda, and Navan line. Now, wt....,
was the state of that country? Why, in a letter he k+
received from the daughter of the Protestant Bishop ;-
Neath, he had a description of a family living in Cavan. The wom ;
of the house was represented, just after child-birth, as lying dead,',
child, some six years of age, lying dead by her side, the father, wt 5'
nothing but a shirt on, lying dead in the straw, and the rats erawli t
over him—all ef whom had died from starvation. But this w t
only a instigated sketch of the picture ; and yet, if this Bill we t
carried, 70,000 men eonld be at once put into employment in th e
very town. The letter, moreover, stated that numbers of the peoi e-
died of starvation, and that, in the opinion of the writer, the m, r
sure of the Noble Lord was the only measure propose 3
hi Parliament calculated to meet the emergency of the el:ifr
The Noble Lord then read a number of other letters from Irsl;end e
similar import and all expressing-their opinion that the pro,,arsal k
the Noble Lord was the only beneficial one which had as yet tat i
propounded to the House. He offered to the House a measure '.
which he wanted a clear stage and no favour—cue which vast!
shaped to further private interest or public patronage. He s,
desirous to answer the arguments brought forward by Hut Chancel tii
of the Exchequer (who, he regretted, had left tb:s Hoc 0,
-oin indispositivu), but in, consequence of the Often% of t 1