The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-17 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY MORNING, FEBRUARY 17, 1847.

watt no transitory calamity passing over Ireland, to be cured in over four years, that may amount to 16,000,0001.—( Hear.)
*even or eight months. In his own neighbourhood he had I know of no other mode for providing for this assumed dell-
,clone all that he could to alleviate the evil.—( Hear, hear.) mency, except by a vigorous effort—by direct taxation—
But it should be remembered that the wholeof the potato crop of ( Hear, hear)—visited on all parts of the United Kingdom—
Ireland had been destroyed, and therefore it was that he (Hear, hear)—or by the issue of Exchequer-bills in this
warned the House that same measures should be devised for doubtful state of the public revenue, or the contraction of a
the relief of the people of Ireland, and unless they did devise loan to the amount required, engendering possibly a direct
such measures, he was quite sure that the people must starve. taxation in order to provide for the interest of that loan. I
What was the condition of the landlords of Ireland ? give no opinion whatever on the policy of adopting the alter-
Why that in the majority of the cases the rent was not native course. But suppose the financial Minister considered
paid by one-fourth of the tenants; that in half the eases there it right to risk the loan upon Exchequer-bills, I am
was nut one-sixth of the rent naid ; and in many cases it was compelled to ask, would it be advisable to increase the difficulty
are actual fact that the people who were oppressed were them- of his financial position by entering into engagements to the
selves more in need of relief than those who were oe the list of amount of 16 000,0001., to be spread over a period of four
the guardians. He knew a nobleman, a landlord in the county years? Sir, I must totally and entirely differ from those who
sof Tipperary, whose annual rental was some 7,4001., but what contend that you can pledge the public credit of the country
`would the House think when he told them that that nobleman for the purpose of promoting commercial enterprise without
had only received 510/ out of his 7,400!., being not 8 per subjecting the country to any risk of loss. ( Hear,
cent. of that which was legally due to him ? He told Hon. hear.) Why, the Noble Lord may find it absolutely ne-
Gentlemen in that House that the landlords in that country cessary to provide also four millions of money in the
with which ho was connected, as well as in the county present year to meet the emergency of the time;
next to it, had sold their houses, given up their and, depend upon it, you will at once so surcharge
carriages, and devoted their time and their money to the the money market, that there must be a positive addition made
maintenance of the destitute poor in their localities ; they had to the interest paid upon Exchequer-bills.—( Hear, hear.)
taxed themselves to the extent of 30s. in the pound on their What is the public credit of the country ? Why it is a part of
rental. In one barony in the county of 'Water ford, they had, the national property—it is one of the elements of our financial
up to that period, laid on themselves a burden of 30s. on their strength, and you cannot appropriate any portion of that credit
average rental to meet the exigencies of the barony. He to the encouragement of commercial enterprise without weak -
kne e three landlords in the same county who employed and ening your power to apply the same principle in cases of erner-
paid from. their owe resources upwards of 1,200 individuals, geney. It is quite impossible that the contrary should be
and if lion. Members doubted the fact, he would give the the case, and, therefore, I say that the application of
names of these three gentlemen, although it was sometimes the national credit is very much the same in principle as the
unpleasant to do so in that House. And when Irish Alembers ' application of direct taxation.—( Hear, hear.) Every appli-
vnre, told, by the Hon. Member for Inverness, that the land- ' cation of the public credit engenders a necessity of an in-
lords of Ireland ought to have taken raeaseres to borrow money ' creased taxation, and renders you less able to make a great
from the Government, as the landlords in the Highlands of exertion when necessary; and therefore it does become abso-
Scotlaad,:and in other places, had done, his ( Sir H. Barron's) lutely necessary to consider whether the application of sixteen
answer to that was, that he himself, and other Irish landlords, millions of money is required for the purpose of meeting the
had applied to the Board of Works for a portion of the million, present calamity and averting the future danger of Ire-
Which had in a previous session been voted for the purposes land, and whether the gain is equal to the risk
of draining; and what did the House think was the answer he we run from such an application. If I understand
received from the Board? Why, he got a post letter asking the Bill, it is this, it enables the Treasury to advance, for the
him if he was a tenant for life, because, if he was, he need not next four years, a sum, the maximum of which is sixteen
apply, as the Government had taken the opinion of the law millions; it does not impose any obligation that the whole sum
officers of the Crown, and the provisions of the measure did not is to be levied at the same time, but twelve millions may be
apply to such. Why, he told the House that eleven out of levied in four years, and the remainder when the Railway
'every twelve proprietors in Ireland were tenants for life, and Commissioners might desire. , This advance of sixteen
therefore they did not get a single shilling out of the million millions was not limited to railways that had absolutely
which had been so much talked about in that House and out received the sanction of Parliament; but supposing,
of it, and they were altogether thrown on their own resources. after the investigation of the Railway Commissioners,
That was the fair and honest answer to give to the Hon. Member there should be found only a sufficient extent of works
for Inverness. And now he might perhaps be allowed to say that to demand the application of twelve millions, you must not
he regretted exceedingly the tone adopted by the Chancellor infer that the Treasury is limited to advance only the
of the Exchequer in regard to Irish landlords. He regretted 12,000,000/.; power is given in the Bill to the Treasury to ad-
that
tone most sincerely, because he thought it an improper vance the other four if Parliament should give its sanction to
tone to take with regard to Ireland; he thought that her die- any other projects. It is not that the Treasury is liable to ad-
tresses and difficulties were great, and it peculiarly interested vance the money, but as I read the Bill, there is no discretion
the Government of this empire, the people, and this House, to given to withold it, provided that the Railway Commissioners
show their sympathy by giving their assistance to that country. certify that the project is likely to afford employment, and be
He would net dwell at any length on this point, hut he hoped beneficial to the country. The power which was invested in
that a sympathy of feeling would be evinced by her Majesty's that department was taken away, and placed in the hands of
Government with the people of Ireland. The Chancellor of Hon. Gentlemen who might be railway shareholders. It was
the Exchequer had told them that this Bill was intended rather certainly a novel principle to make the Treasury of the country,
for the relief of destitute shareholders than of the destitute poor with respect to the advance of sixteen millions in the course of
of Ireland. That might have been intended as a very good four years a mere instrument destitute of power, and to transfer
antithesis—as an amusing way of putting the oration--but it it to a body in no way responsible, and in no way interested
'was not consistent with the fact. The Bill q for the our- in economising the expenditure of the country. It certainly
was pose of giving assistance to the poor of Ireland. He believed was a novel principle to introduce. What !to divest the Trea-
in his conscience that this was the object of the Bill, and for sury of its power, and make it a mere instrument in the hands
(Sthat reason he intended to vote for the second reading. He of Railway Commissioners, compelled to advance the public
ir H. W. Barron) had no connexion with the destitute money on the certificate of those Commissioners, which was
shareholders in Ireland, or any other shareholders, but the Bill not even very stringent in its provisions, as the Treasury
received his support because it was intended to give relief to should find the money if the certificate ran thus,—" That the
all classes in the country, from the highest peer to the hum. effect of the railway would be beneficial to the public, and likely
`blest peasant. He knew that the landlords in Ireland had to afford public employment." It is not to be that there is
come forward on this occasion in the most noble and generous any certainty of repayment—(Hear, hear)—and on receiving
rnanner.—(Cries of " Question, question.") He thought it that certificate, the financial department of the country has no
right to state these things, because much had been said in that option, but museat once proceed to raise the required amount.
Rouse against the course pursued by the more wealthy classes Now, as to the prospect of repayment, it was generally
of Ireland. In the cite of Waterford, the merchants, the assumed that at the end of thirty years they would obtain their
shopkeepers, and the residents of all degrees were doing their money back again. But observe that there was no providing
duty nobly ; they had not got the assistance of a shilling from in the Bill which insisted on the borrowing company provisions
Government, and yet they had four relief committees at for the gradual repayment of the loan. Last year—l allude to
twork.—(Hear, hear.) He did not, however say, that the the Drainage Bill—we advanced money at a very low rate of
landlords of Ireland had in every period of their country's interest, at three-and-a-half per cent., but we provided that
history done their duty so well ; he admitted that absentee the borrower should instantly commence to repay the
landlords had grossly neglected their estates and forgotten the principal at not less than six-and-a-half per cent.
Interests of their tenantry. It became every man who retained But by the present Bill the borrower could do so at three per
afeeling of humanity in his bosom to attend in his place and cent., and is not required to repay any portion until the expira-
ao provide some means for the relief of the starving thousands tion of thirty years. Well, even at that remote period—
In Ireland ; this measure afforded hopes of doing so, and there- (A laugh)--have you a certain prospect of getting back any
fore he should give it all the support in his power, because in portion of it ? By no meant; for there is a clause in
thus acting he would be doing his duty to his constituents, his the Bill which provides that the time can be extended.
Country, and his God. The measure, I admit, is as free from objection as that for
the Sir ROBERT PEEL said—Sir, it is my wish to discuss making roads, or administering relief; and it was not on that
e proposal which has been brought forward by the Noble account that I have considered it right to oppose it. The Hon.
entertain
in a spirit and temper befitting the deep sense which I Gentleman who sits near me (Mr. Hudson) takes a particular
for the magnitude of the calamity under which pride in that part of the Bill which pays off mortgages on the
Ireland
is now suffering, and the magnitude of that future railways which are now existing.—(Laughter.) The first
danger which is, I fear, impending over her.—(Cheers.) Sir, part of the measure pays off three debts.—(Laughter.)
I
i understand the Noble Lord to bring forward this question in (Mr. Hudson here observed that it was only intended to
a Spirit free from all party feeling. I understand him to pay ofi' the private debts. )—But, says the Hon. Gentleman,
9 ing it forward, not as a measure in hostile rivalry with this will make the coast clear if they pay off the private debts.—
the proposal of her Majesty's Government, but as a ( Laughter.) I understand, therefore, that the first application
contribution suggested by the Noble Lord towards the mea- of the money to be advanced from the Treasury would be to
!tires that were deemed to be calculated to diminish the suffer- pay off the creditors of the railways, even though they were not
l'lns of Ireland. Sir, in that spirit it is my intention to dis- holders of shares.—)Laughter.) Some railway companies were
cites it. lam the more inclined to do so, because the vote at present borrowing money at 5 per cent. (Mr. Hudson re-
ehich I shall give will be upon the merits of the question marked that the Great Western Company only paid 44- per
founded, and will be influenced by the consideration of those cent.) The Hon. Gentleman says—See what I have done;
consequences which the Noble Lord indicated as the possible re-
look at the state of the money-market. I have been able to
sult of the measure. Sir, the proposal is, that the credit of the raise a capital of ten millions within three or four months.
country should be pleCged to the amount of sixteen millions for But, he save, don't suppose that I have a share in any Irish
I the purpose. of providing employment for the poor of Ireland. have no interest whatever in any Irish rail way.—
railway.
Sir, the extent to which it is proposed so to engage the credit (Laughter.) Is it not a fact, however, that a great portion
of the shareholders in Irish railways were Englishmen?—
of this country, justifies, and, in my opinion, necessitates some
reference to the financial condition and financial prospects of ( Hears hear.) The Hon. Member for Lynn said, " See what
the country. Sir, the financial condition of the country, judg- an enormous profit the construction of Irish railways will
ing from the last returns, made up to the beginning of Janu- be to the English railways. Can it be supposed that a railway
ary last, shows the financial condition of the country, no doubt, with a terminus in Waterford, Drogheda, or Dublin, will be of
to be in a prosperous state. It would appear from no use to English railways ?" But if this undoubted and
those returns, that the amount of revenue received within the enormous profit to English railways be the consequence of the
Year—not of course ending the sth of April, but on the sth of construction of Irish railways, on what ground do they now
January last —that the amount of revenue received within the come forward and ask Government for assistance?—(Cheers.)
year far exceeded the estimate which was made by any Right Suppose they are deriving 10 per cent. on the railways in this
Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. That revenue country, and that an extraordinary increase of profit is ex-
was partly derived, no doubt, from sources which my Right pasted on the completion of the Irish railways, why do they ask
_e
.t_f n. Friend could not calculate, but, speaking generally of money at 3ii. per cent. for which they ought to pay five or
the ordinary sources of revenue for the year ending on the Ist 6 per cent.?—(Cheers.) Was not that a clear gain of 2% per
of January last, the receipts were greater than the most sanguine cent., or 25,0004 or every 1,000,000/.?—( Cheers. )I If that be
exectation could have anticipated. ---( Hear hear.) Sir, I the case, then do not say it is merely pledging the public credit;
think my Right Hon. Friend calculated that the amount of direct bonus on Irish railways.—(Cheers.) I, there-
revenue for the year ending sth April, 18, would 47 be about it is a
r fore, am of opinion that no claim whatever hes been established
51,900,000/.
for Government assistance. Even if they were not sharehold-
Mr. GOULBURN-50,000,00/.
R. PEEL—Yes, 50,900,000/.—that wouldndin beh about ors in these railways, they would have no right to claim Go-
Sirae sthd of vernment assistance for an undertaking which they stated pos-
-51,00,000/. The net receipts of the year es_essed so many clear and undoubted evidences of intrinsic profit.
January last (being the receipts to the sth of Januaryt (Hear, hear.) If the statements be true which had been
the sth of April, were not less than 53,C30,00/ ,belinon" made, they were an inducement to English shareholders to come
excess of 2,000,Cn. upon the estimate of 'my Right
, hear.") The forward and embark their capital in these 'railways, and my
Honourable Friend.—(Cries of " Hear
balance in the Exchequer was not less than 9 000 00 1 Honourable Friend (Mr. Hudson) should come forward
and the total amount of excess of revenue overeZariseideitour.er.e liberally, and head the list.—(Cheers and laughter.) But if,
notwithstanding all these objections, it be a great measure,
calculated as the Noble Lord (Bentinck) says, to encourage
was, I think, about 2,8C0,060/. Se far, therefore,
industrial enterprise in Ireland— calculated as a great instru-
ceipts and disbursements up to the presentyear areconcerned,
ment to work out the social amelioration of the condition of
ttie financial condition of the country .prosperous; but with
reference to the proposal of the Nolableleerd
pledgingthe that country—l am not disposed to be diverted from the attain-
ment of such desirable results by the financial difficulties that
country to the amount of 16,000,CD/ , the matter for our
may be its accompaniment; but it is because I have a doubt
consideration is rather the prospects of the coming year than
that neither the advantages predicted, nor a considerable
the results of the year that has past.—( Hear, hear.) Sir,
the Noble Lord at the head of her Majesty's Govern- portion of them, will result from the adoption of the measure,
merit, or the Chancellor of the Exchequer, will, upon end that the financial difficulties to which I have adverted will
an early day, state to us the view which her Majesty's Govern- aertainly be its attendant, that has decided the vote which I
ment take of the financial state of the country. Sir, I appre-
shall give to-night.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Member for
bend they can hardly calculate upon the receipts of the coming Shrewsbury he alluded to the mistakes of the Chancellor of the
financial year being greater, perhaps not so great, as the Exchequer, and has endeavoured to show the great mistakes
made by the Right Hon. Gentleman ; but I think there was one
receipts of the present year. It is hardly possible to con-
serve that, considering the high price of provisions in the mistake into which he himself fell. The Honourable
country, considering the depressed state of manufactures,h par-
Gentleman was referring to the inferiority of Ireland
cularly in some
great branches, considering the expected to England, and was stating what a strange contrast
oh price of one of the great raw materials of manufactures—
there existed between the currency of Scotland and Ireland.
I mean cotton—considering the effect which the high price 1 consider that as a most fallacious test of the prosperity of the
of provisions thoughout the whole continent of Europe, country. It has been the evil of Scotland that it has not
and the high price of provisions in the United States of increased its circulation. I believe that no country in the
.irrierica must produce upon the power of consumption in world has made more rapid advances than Scotland has,
. different quarters of Europe and America—it is hardly possi- and yet by looking at the comparison of the amount
ble for as to believe that this concurrence of untoward circum-
of the present currency with what it was thirty years since,
stances will not materially affect the revenue. Sir, as to the it would be found that the facts of the case were decidedly in
expenditure of the coming year, we shall have to calculate opposition to the arguments of the Hon. Member for Shrews-
Pon no ordinar ex enditure. I believe in res act to the bury. The Hon. Member stated that in Ireland the amount of
Military estimates
uy ,
notes in circulation averaged only 11. per head, whereas in
there will be an, thpe naval, army
addition of not ' and ordnancep estimates,
less than 400,C00/. 1 Scotland it was equal to 161. per head.
do not quarrel with that estimate ; I believe that Mr. DISRAELI.--No, no.
ms Goverment would propose an increased estimate Sir R. PEEL—This showed the necessity for indulgence
of that kind without a deep sense of public necessity. on the part of Hon. Members in alluding to speeches pre-
I am not alluding to it, therefore, byway
ns ; of complainton the viously delivered. I certainly understood the Hon. Member
contrary, I am ready to incur the responsibility with G tavern-
to say that the allowance for Scotland was at the rate of 161.
went in taking that additional vote, if it is justified by public p.sr head.
affairs. But with respect to that estimate, there is an actual Mr. DISRAELI—Not of currency.
increase proposed of 400,000 a, while I cannot anticipate that Sir R. PEEL—Then I have mistaken the statements of the
H
there will be any reduction in the miscellaneous estimates, lon. Member. I have not the slightest wish to misquote the ex-
apprehend that there will be an additional expenditure on the pressions of any Hon. Member.—(Hear.) I was going, however,
charge of debt, and thus the ordinary annual expenditure will to advert to that which is, after all, the main test of the pros
considerably exceed the expenditure of the present.—( Hear, perity of a nation. The Hon. Member for Shrewsbury says
hear.) Then, Sir, with respect to the future. I that he admits the truth of the abstract doctrine, that it is
am prepared to expect an increase on account of the better to leave commercial enterprise free of all State inter-
necessary expenses, for the purpose of doing that which I ference. I think that doctrine is not only practically sure, but,
ass prepared and ready to do, namely, for the purpose of miti- in the case of England, I think it is also perfectly practicable.
gating those horrors which at present overwhelm Ireland.— The prospect of commercial gain is alone the feeling which
(Hear, hear.) lam prepared to consent to a full expenditure influences the conduct or enters into the views of the specu-
w—tttth. at liberal expenditure—to afford to this country in common lator—(Hear, hear)—he calculates upon a certain amount of
Profit, and the number of men whom he has to employ ;
will bee
. ;es7fint ewxtilly
iotther relief, but I anticipate that the necessary result
threse. and other considerations it is which induce him to de-
the revenue
posing this terrible eaele,amiru7seitha
the
ennseideeersasble deficit, comparing
applicable.
But
the is
necessary expenditure. Supe re mine whether he shall speculate in a certain enterprise or
possible that the Noble Lord
had not fallen upon 1 ,
helm- d it is not. The doctrine
tloyfnot only3ie
m perfectlyher
i r
Shrewsbury says that those doctrines Hon.'
mate some considerable excess
frrd nrbeyeilgaftnhhtde havelst,Tlou beenshould
at
ae
lnl
approach e dto
t rail-
h earethneort perfectly apph-
po
Theitica I ;toane.
of expenditure required revenue, but if the amount
cable in a country like Ireland, because
sum that has been estimated
9, or possibly 11 millions, it is still highly'l
1848, asiderations overpower commercial speCulationes,.
Noble Lord, namely, some
has misgoverned Ireland, and, therefore, the State should in-
will will be, on the sth of April,terfere in commercial enterprise.—(Hear, hear.) That is an
-
7 or 8 millions, comparing the actual deexfireei probable
expenditure
et
wleitshs thanthe
argument I wish to protest against. Ido not think it is for
receipts. But, I believe, you will have to follow up that ex- the advantage of Ireland that political considerations should
penditure by a large and liberal expenditure, to enable the overpower those considerations. I have heard several speeches
people of Ireland to lay the foundation of a better food than from Hon Members who have addressed the House in favour of
that upon which they have
.hitwheilritoheexisted.—(Hear, hear. from those speeches, I am convinced that if
Our great object, therefore the statements made by those Hon. Members be true, then
by absolute necessity to meet innt
emergency
proceeded,
ergrhope
toe con-
) the measure, and,
they are such as should induce the Irish landlords to encourage,
the present
eider minutely what those measures will ben pthey from their awn resources, the commerce of the country.—
'will be conceived in a vvise, and candid, and liberal ' ( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the Member for Lynn said,
such as shall lay the foundation of that social reeenerationasPolrfit' " Complete the Irish railroads, complete the 1,50 miles
as the sustenance of the people is concerned.—(Hear, heara.;
Looking at these measures and exertions on the part of the lords. The land upon every square mile a
o f railroads, andsee what will be the benefidtjotionitnhge
tlhreishralilawnday-
Government and the country, considering the great exP endi- will be improved, every acre within the vicinity of that rail-
tore that will be required, and considering that, to meet the way will be improved by a positive addition to the value of the
present emergency, it will require a sum of not less than seven rental, taking it at the lowest estimate of 10s. per acre. The
or eight millions, it is hardly possible that the future finan- whole number of acres so improved in the annual rental of
cial condition of the country can be gratifying.—(lleac, 10s. will amount to 1,900,C31. ; and this increase
make these
If
ddrh
joiy: i
httohhtneetyool frnci23o:
Irish
I,ola 00
uponn
d,
hear.) Now, with these financial prospects before of rental would cause in the purchase price of the land an ad-
us, let us just inquire what is the present arid
the
Ir
irsahi I
landownersroad s
yltfhteheiso,eatthreenc,tiieshthoef
tphreoafintrtaoubweaydae,rwivhedy
probable future state of the money-market. That inquiry
IllaY possibly excite a smile, but 1 use the term money-market? —( C
ihne et rhse. )„, i c
iHn
iat Have
hlf
in the sense that means neither more nor less than what are
the terms upon which the public can borrow money for the r_andways, to give every facility to an enterprise, from the bene-
Purose of supplying the public wants.—( Hear, hear.) It is °
_eial effects of which they are to derive the sum of 23,000,0001.?
nthotesae
ropoaed that the public should contract another loan for the IN
. w, with reference to the Galway fisheries, the Hon. Mem-
Purpose of a certain measure. It will be a burden upon the ber_ for Stamford (the Marquis of Granby) said that the people
People which must be provided for in some way or other by o. Galway could go out in their boats, and bring on their return
public securities.—(Hear, hear.) Well then, 1 find that the with them a quantity of herrings to the value of 4,000/., the
Ibree-and-a-Half per Cents., which a short time since produce os!. single night; and, said be, what a benefit it would
,veer at not less than par, which were, even a •hort time ago, as be to the Irish people, if they were enabled to take their fish to
high as 100/., are at present not more than 91/. Calculating other parts of the country by means of railways, and dispose of
that price with those of the last six or seven months, that itat onee, instead of having to lay idle for three or four nights,
',bows a depression of not less that 12 per cent. So much for and losing fish to. the value of 4,00.1..0n each night. Are not
fued I these, then, considerations of great commercial importance and
find . property. Let us now look to the unfunded debt.
the Irish landowners ,
should not
in the case of the Exchequer-bills that they are at a dis-
valuable undertakings ? Their land will be improved, and
count, or at all events, only some ss. premium. Now, of course,
profitable fisheries will be encouraged.
state of the money-market is a- most material eonsidera-
,• Mr. HUDSON—They have got no money.
tion hi discussing the '
again
Sir R. PEEL—The Hon. Member for Sunderland
• again, with respect to the says they
prospects of the country
in relation
have got no money. y, the same power that raised
b to its foreign affairs. It was given out
9 her Majesty, 10 000,000/. a few weeks since.—(Cheers,) If these railways are
this on the first day of the session, that '
so beneficial, what is the reason that British capital is net in-
country still continued, and l'ls .
on terms was 1 ely to continue!
vested in them ?—( Cheers.) The Hon. Member for Shrews-
,_ of amity with the foreign Powers of Europe. I
bury says that political considerations have overwhelmed the or-
naerd that announcement with great satisfaction, but
, my con- bury
commercial considerations, and that the shareholders of
I_',u nee in it was somewhat shaken by
recollecting the discus-
find a great difficulty in obtaining possession of the
*ions which took place between
this and another Ireland.
upon a cert • • great country the corn llicated nature
at
the
same
certain question ; and the remembrance that it was land, in consequence of I i . 0
Euro had
time announced that three other great Powers in the title to the land. Then would say, simplify the
Pe had committed a manifest • •
viola means of obteti . , -.lane the titles to laid in that country. warns this
..violation of good faith to-
at Int.. country, :New, t e this state of things, the Funds ( Che'N's' ) It has been proved that it is to the interest et the
l'lohle 'and Exchequer-bills scarcely bearing premiums, the laneowners to give their land for the purpose of making these
calls upon us to author' Vection of the reat difficulties the
ise her Majesty's railways, and I meet that o j g .
Government to sanction contracts which are to spread Irish companies: have to contend with in obtaining possession

of the land, by advising, with the hearty consent of the land-
owners themselves, the adoption of some measure to facilitate
the purchase of land upon fair and equitable terms.—(Cheers. )
Nothing is more easy than for you to do that. You have al-
ready done it one case—the case of the Shannon navigation.
In that case the claims have been left to the decision of the
Shannon Commissioners. Their awards have been so just,
and made in so fair a spirit, that not a single appeal has
been made against their decision. The same principle
is carried out in France and Belgium, and I earnestly hope
that some measure will be adopted for the purpose of simpli-
fying the titles to property in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Well,
then, it has been said that political or religious differences
would prevent the people acting in concert in the formation of
these works of utility. They should be invited to take part
in the concerns of their common country, and all these
religious and political animosities will pass away when they
find that it is their interest and their duty to combine together
to me :onrage these works, and to discourage all thaw party
feelings and religious animosities.—(Cheers.) Bet let the
people suppose that they can do nothing for themselves, and
that the Government is prepared to do everything for them,
these animosities will continue to prevent the appli-
cation of the capital and energies of the people
to the promotion of works of commercial enterprise.
Thus they will obtain double advantages by leaving those
works to be constructed by the means of individual enterprise,
and, at the same time, encouraging great social improvements
among the people. The Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Shrewsbury called upon the State to make those railways ;
but what advantages were to accrue in return ? There is, he
said, a field of coal at Mallow more extensive than any coal-field
in operation in England. " Make a railway," he said, " and not
five years will elapse before that field of coal will be explored,
and its produce carried along the line proposed to be con-
structed to various parts of Ireland. It would be transported
to Dublin, and to the other large consuming towns in the
country." He said further, that it would be found as important
and lucrative a coal-field as any in England. But why do
political considerations overpower commercial considerations ?
Why do not men of capital, and men of sense, estimate the
probable produce of that coal-field, and calculate what amount
of toll would be received for the transmission of that produce
over the line ?—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman also said
that the fisheries will receive a new stimulus—that new resi-
dents will be brought into the country, and that the trade of
the country will be increased.;But why are not all these results
still obtained by the commercial instead of political enterprise?
I firmly believe, that if you do not overpower Irish enterprise
by the application of English capital by Government interfer-
ence, I firmly believe, that at no remote period, that those
works will be carried out by the enterprise of the country.—
( Hear, hear.) if I really believed the financial condition of
the country would permit it, and that it would be decidedly for
the advantage of Ireland, a great part of my objections
would be removed, but I have most serious doubts
that if you fetter Irish enterprise by the applica-
tion of English capital, as proposed in the Noble
Lords' Bill, I do doubt very much whether it would be for the
benefit of the Irish people.—( Hear, hear.) Yet, I admit that
there have been interferences by the State for the purpose of
promoting public works. In the last year, when I was the
First Lord of tha Treasury, I 'consented to advance soma
money to an Irish railway on the same principle upon which
advances for commercial purposes are made. I am not at all
prepared to say whether, owing to this calamity which has
visited Ireland, that it would be unwise under certain restric-
tions, and under certain guarantees for the repayment of the
advances, to make such loans.—(Cheers from Lord George
Bentinck.) But the extent and encouragement which
the the
lines country,w would pass, to
as thehe
the Noble Lord proposes to give, will, I believe,
notdisi
trebtes so
ohrobuegnh which
eficialte
anticipates ; and, moreover, will not give such tan-
gible security as we have a right to expect. The only security
that you have is, in cases of default, the seizure of the railway.
—(Cheers.) If the shareholders in those lines to which ad-
vances have been made refuse to contribute their share of the
money borrowed, or the interest upon it, you have no other
option than to take possession of the railway, and finish it at
the public expense ( Hear) —or in a case of absolute
failure, you have no remedy against the shareholers.
The remedy is not against the shareholders, but against the
old iron rails.—(Laughter.) In speaking thus, I am stating
the views which I have long held. lam not adverse to the
occasional application of capital for the purpose of encouraging
enterprise both in this country and in Ireland.—(Cheers.
What I sincerely deprecate is such supposed encouragement as
shall prevent individual enterprise, and those who ought to rest
upon individual enterprise, by such an interference as shall pa-
ralyse that enterprise, by rendering it valueless, and conse-
quently inoperative, as I think the advance which any such sum
as that proposed by the Government, whose interference would
be carried to some extent as to its application, could not have
any other effect than that of paralysing individual enterprise.
Sir, I know the Noble Lord will say that my estimate is incorrect;
that 7,000,0001. will be required, independently of the capita I
proposed to be expended by his measure for the relief of the
distress in Ireland, under the powers of the Bill already passed
by this House, as his measure, by finding employment for the
people, will reduce the necessity of making such large advances.
Now, admitting in the first place, the men who will be employed
are generally Irishmen, and not Englishmen from this country,
yet I greatly doubt whether the passing of the Bill of the Noble
Lord would immediately diminish that expenditure which wilt
be absolutely necessary for the relief of the destitue. Now I
hold in my hand a map of the railways which have received the
sanction of Parliament, of those which have been completed, and
of those in the course of execution. By this map it appears that
it verifies the observation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
who, speaking generally, said that railways were sanctioned by
Parliament mainly for the east coast. I only tied two, of com-
paratively small extent, passing to the westward. The first is
from Sligo to the Shannon, the capital of which is, I think,
100,0001; and the second from Limerick, through Killaloe to
Ennis, the capital of which was 300,0004 But, with respect
to the west, there are no Bills for the construction of railways
through it, except one in the county of Clare; nor in Donegal,
Roscommon, Leitrim, Sligo (with the exception of that small
railway for which the estimate was 100,000/. ), Mayo, Galway,
Clare (with the exception of the railway from Limerick to
Ennis), and through a great part of the county of Limerick.
But no provision would be made for the employment of the
destitute persons in the immediate neighbourhood of the line
which would be made. In the returns read the other evening
by the Hon. Gentleman, it appeared that the persons who
would be employed on railways were those residing in the im-
mediate neighbourhood of the lines. If that be so, first of all,
the removal of men from Connaught to work at the lines
would take him away from his family, and that would be a great
misfortune, if they numbered as many as ten. That is no
small evil. Who would provide fer their sustenance during his
absence? Certainly it would not do away with demands on the
Government from the west, which would still be heavy notwith-
standing the employment which would be given under the Noble
Lora's Bill. I was saying that I have for a long period enter-
tained sincere doubts whether you might not carry Govern-
ment interference too far, so far as to injure commercial enter-
prise. Now, I wish the House could be fully, aware of the
history of the inland navigation of Ireland. Inland navigation
in Ireland was promoted and encouraged by the Government.
It is necessary that I should refer to this point, although I may
trespass a short time longer on the attention of the House,
and I thank the House for the attention with which it has
listened to me.—(Loud sheers.) I wish to present to the
House the contrast between enterprise encouraged and
fostered by the Government, and enterprise undertaken
under every difficulty and discouragement, and what was
taken for individual gain by individual enterprise.
The Irish Parliament greatly encouraged and fostered
inland navigation. What were the grounds on which public
ad was granted? Exactly the same on which we are asked to
give the enormous public aid sought by this Bill.—( Loud
cheers.) By the 23d of George 11., a corporation was ap-
pointed to carry on inland navigation. What was intended to
be done? To take a canal directly across Ireland, in the con-
fident hope that the returns would be most enormous—so enor-
mous that the prosperity of Ireland would be promoted, and it
would have been most beneficial if it had been left in the hands
of individual shareholders. By this Act of Parliament it was
stated " that these works of inland navigation, being for the
public benefit, by encouraging tillage, and giving employ-
ment to the poor, it is fit and reasonable that they should tie
carried on at the charge of the kingdom, by grants from
the public funds." In 1787, then, it was found that the works
had progressed so badly, that it was decided that they would
not ultimately prove advantageous to the company. It was
said that the system of granting public money was perilous and
abortive. The officers were appointed under that Act at
salaries as large as 500/. to superintend and control the works,
but the result of their management was that they made two
canals running parallel to each other.—(Hear, and laughter.)
The Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer re-
ferred to the two canals—the Royal and the Great Canal.
the original estimate for the first of which was, I think, 180,000/.
The circumstances of the canal caused an inquiry to be made
in 1811. Now what was the position in which this canal, sup-
ported and fostered by public money, was found ? Why we
found that 186,000/. of the public. money had beer, granted,
though the original capital was stated to be only 19J,000/.
( Hear, hear.) And while the Government had advanced
186,0001., it appeared that 182,000/., had been expended
otherwise. The increase was 15,000/, while the mainte-
nance of the permanent works was 11,0001., leaving only
4,000/. to cover the whale debt and expenditure of the com-
pany.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") This was a work
which was stated at the time to be a great national
undertaking, yet the unfortunate results I have given
are the fruits of the company being fostered by the Government.
The company to which I have referred, at the very time it was
in this state, made dividends without any profits, and even
when they were obliged to pay not only the interest on their
debt, but also their present expenses, by fresh leans,—( Hear,
hear.) The same results have been shown in the case of the
Caledonian Canal as what I have shown in the present case.
Both the Caledonian as well as the Royal Canals were great
national undertakings, yet at the very time I have referred to,
the latter company told me, as I was then Secretary of Ireland,
that unless they could get 100,0001. more, their whole affairs
would go to ruin.—( Hear, hear.) Parliament granted the canal
50,000/. more, which was added to the 182,000/.,making a total
sum advanced of 232,0001.—(Cries of " Hear, hear")—but
what is the present position of the company I cannot say; but
since then I trust its affairs have been under better manage-
ment. This is the result of Government interference.—
( Hear, bear.) Sir, I cannot leave this part of the subject
without adverting to what has appeared in the admirable re-
port of the late Mr. Drummond, in much of which I agree,
anticipating as it did many of the improvements and suggestions
since made in that report, in which is given the results of the
Government interference in the Royal Canal. There is also an
account of the indomitable efforts and enterprise of one indi-
vidual within the last twenty years in supplying all the south,
the south-west, and many other parts of Ireland, with means of
internal communication. This account affords a contrast be-
tween the results of a scheme like the present under considera-
tion, fostered by the Government, and those of individual en-
terprise. The one to which I refer, is the establishment of a
regular system of cars between the provincial towns of Ireland.
The Hon. Member read an extract from the report in
question. It set out with stating, that about twenty years
ago, while there were coaches in a few of the leading roads of
Ireland, the cross-roads and small towns had no convenience.
The country was in this state until an individual took it up—
an individual who had no advantages from connexion with the
country—no great capital or influence. He was a foreigner—
an Italian, a native of Milan, who ceuld not even speak the
language of the country. Signor Bianconi tried first with one
een Clonmel and Clare. He bad
no-
car, which he started between
thing but his 111
industry and integrity to depend on for success—
but these were sufficient, for be soon increased his number of
cars until he
had
established them all over the province
oft Munster. From th_ nce he extended them into Leitrim and
Sligo, and throughout Connaught generally, until they oecu-
pied all the north-west parts of the kingdom. He had now
ninety-four public conveyances, and the distance which they
travelled exceeded three thousand miles•—(Cheers.)
These results had been achieved in districts which were the ffici
of agrarian disturbance in districts where life and property were
I not secure, where party processions and religious feelings
ran high. Notwithstanding this state of things, M. Menemi
had carried out his system everywhere without hindrance or
disturbance, and was popular wherever he went. In the face
of the greatest difficulties had individual enterprise • succeeded ;
he established himself secnrely in those foci of agrarian outrage,
where life and property were not secure, and when there was
every discouragement to the enterprise in which he had em-
barked. His confidence had not been abused. By just and
active exertions he bad succeeded, and was not only safe, but
popular with all classes of the people.—(Hear, hear.) This,
continued the Right. Hon. Baronet, is a contrast `to the cases
that have gone before to the schemes fostered by Government
support. By the exertion of individual enterprise, this
oreigner, who did not understand the language of the country,

had thus carried out this great swans of internal communication.
Exert yourselves in the same way, and you will add to the value
of your landed property, and advance the interess and the hap-
piness of the people.--( Hear, hear.) If you wll imitate the
example set you by this foreigner, and contrast it
with the examples of the schemes proposed by the
Legislature—if you will forget your rtligious diffe-
rences, and let a sense of the overwhelming
visitation under which your country is truly stffaring, impress
on your minds—if you devote all your exertions to mitigate
this calamity, and to improve the social circunstances of the
millions dependent on you, not only for thdr present but
their future welfare, it is my firm belief that yni will do more
to promote the interests and happiness of your native land,
than if, abandoning yourselves to misery aid regret, and
despair, you placed your confidence in Govsrnment grants,
and trusted in your difficulties to Government aid. (The Right
Hon. Baronet sat down amidst loud and genera, cheering.)
Lord G. BEN TINCK rose amidst loud cries of f° Divide,
divide." He said that the Right Honourable Baronet's only
stock areument appeared to be M. Bianconi.—( Hear, hear.)
They stood as the stock in trade of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man. He was sure that it was in the recolecfion of every
gentleman in that House that, when in fee year 1839, the
Government of Lord Melbourne proposed a scheme for as
listing railways in Ireland, the Right Hon. Gentleman gave
word for word what he (Lord G. Bentinck) had heard during
the last half hour, and which were the arguments he then
used against the Goverment of that day. If private enter-
prise, said the Right Hon. Gentleman, were to take its course,
they would have railways just as well and flourishing as they
had their private cars. But seven years had since elapsed, and
what had been the result? Why, whilst in this country they
had 2,61%0 miles of railway, in Belgium there were only 375
miles of railway completed. In Austria and Germany they
had 3,000 miles of railway, and in the United States of Ame-
rica they had 3,300 miles of railway. In Ireland, where en-
terprise had been left unaided by the Government—(lmmense
cheering)—they had about 123 miles of railway. Would the
House listen to the heavy policy of the Right Hon. Baronet?
They were well aware—althovgh many might not
be of his opinion that as the Government aid
had succeeded in Belgium, as Government aid had succeeded
in Austria and Germany, as Government aid had succeeded
in the United States of America, that he would call the aid of
Government for the benefit of Ireland, and not to supersede
private enterprise—(Cheers)—for that he never proposed to
do. The very spirit, the very principle of the Bill was, that
it should not supersede private enterpuise, but that Govern-
ment should come in to aid it, to stimulate it.—(Cheers.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman had entered at great length on
the question of the finances of the country, and thus, as he
(Lord Geo. Bentinck) imagined, was proseeding to show them
how he (Lord Geo. Bentinck) would by his proposition inflict
a heavy tax upon the country. He had listened long and
patiently, but he could not gather from the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman how it was that a single tax, or a single burden of any
description, would be imposed on the country by his proposition.
The Right Hon. Gentleman had told them that they would
require seven millions sterling for the relief of Ireland, and
that for such a purpose some imposition must be forced on the
country. The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed entirely to
forget that seven millions was to be paid for unproductive
works.—( Cheers.) It was to be paid for the
feeding of the people of Ireland without any
return, and le (Lord G. Bentinck) proposed against his pro-
position to spend four millions sterling of money to be raised
upon the credit of the Government, to which two other mi)ions
would be raised by share capital stimulated by the aid of the
Government, and of that six millions he was prepared to show
that not one.fourth'or one-half, but two-thirds, would be ex-
pended in labour. So that out of the seven millions which the
Right Hon. Gentleman proposes as the sum which it would
be necessary to raise to maintain the people of Ireland, he had
a right so say that he would deduct four millions by his scheme.
Then the Right Hon. Gentleman intimated to the House that
the Exchequer-bills were just wavering between a pre-
mium and depreciation, and it was upon the principle that they
would have to raise the price of Exchequer-bills, the Right
!Lon. Gentleman showed his caution and prudence, for be
forgot to tell the House to what extent the interest of the Ex-
chequer-bills would have to be raised. He was too prudent to
tell them to what extent the raising of the four millions would
affect them, because it was not a question with the House
and country how much the four millions would cause the funds
to fall, or how much the raising of these four millions
would make the rates of premium on Exchequer-bills,
but how much the raisings of those four millions would reduce
the premium of Exchequer-bills. The Right. Hon. Gentle-
tleman prudently forebore from telling the House to what ex-
tent the raising of these four millions sterling would throw
down the funds, and the rate of premium of the Exchequer-
bills. He mean: to say that it would reduce the premium of
Exchequer-bills to the same extent, but whether it would re-
duce them one farthing per cent., or one halfpenny per cent.,
it was impossible to say. But they would suppose that the
Right Hon. Gentleman expected that the raising of the four
millions sterling to be expended in profitable employment
in this country would cause the funds to fall to 85, and thus
raise the interest of money to about 3% per cent., and that
they would have in consequence to raise the interest of Ex-
chequer-bills lee per cent., what would the cost to the country
amount to? Counting that upon the whole 27,000,000 of Ex-
chequer-bills, they would not expend 270,000. per annum ;
and what did they hear last night from the Hon. Gentleman
the Chancellor of the Exchequer? That their staff alone, the
maintaining of their army of 14,587 men, cost 78,0001. per
month. The Hon. Gentleman, shrinking from the dread of
incurring on the country the necessity of paying 270,000/. a
year more for Exchequer-bills, thought nothing of 78,0001.
per month to be paid under the plan he advocated and sup-
ported for the maintenance of this idle staff—not of destitute
shareholders—and he certainly knew that they were not a party
sf destitute poor.—( Hear, bear.) The whole of this attack
was for what the Right Hon. Gentleman called the non-govern.
ment of Ireland ; but he would say whether those reports were
not spread for the credit of themselves. He was aware that
this relief had been granted, but he was not at all aware that
the Right Hon. Gentleman now at the head of Irish affairs
was Secretary for Ireland in the year 1789.—(Laughter.) Nor
did he at all understand how the Royal Canal, which was
begun in 1788, could in any way affect that report. This was
an inference which he drew from the circumstances, and there-
fore, it was that he warned the House of the tenor of that
report. It should be recollected that this was a parallel case,
and that in the borrowing of the 4,000,0001. he had stated a
case to the House which would amply repay it for the
advancement of the money. The Noble Lord then read a
series of extracts to show his position, and to show what was
the position of the several individuals who were disposed for the
revival of the company. He was quite aware that there was
much of energy and plausibility in the proposal of the Right
Hon. Gentleman. But the Right Hon. Gentleman, in the
conclusion of his speech, had said he would allow that these
railways would be of use to Ireland. But what was the
statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman ?—why, that this
would be the wiser measure. This was the difficulty in the
way of an adjustment for the affairs of Ireland. The grant
was made in 1781, and the canal was only begun in 1789. He
slated this, not for the sake of argument, but because he was
anxious that the difficulties under which the Government
was placed should be done away with, and because he wished
to answer the arguments of the Hon. Member for Stamford, and
because he felt that the great relief was to be obtained by turn-
ing other railways to the natural source. He was quite aware
that there was a great difficulty, but yet that difficulty ought
to be met. His great object was to extend railways to Galway,
so as to afford plenty of employment for the fishermen. It
appeared by the returns that upwards of 15,0001. per mile had
been expended, and that had been within the last four years.
The. Commissioners had made a report on the 23d June, stating
these circumstances, in which it was shown that these
data were unsatisfactory. Then, as to the machinery, he
confessed that it was singularly defective, and if
it were proceeded in he should feel it his duly to bring the
matter before the Legislature. He was only surprised that
the cumbrousness of the machinery should have se interfered
with its working, for he hid hoped that the Hon. Member
for Kilkenny would have cleared up this difficulty, for he firmly
believed that trona a quarter to a half of the population of Ire-
land would be thrown into destitution unless their wants were
provided fur. This point had been mooted during the last
seven years, and its resolu ion affected the whole of the pope-
lation of Ireland, and had, in fact, produced a social revolution.
The great difficulty appeared to be to make this loan, but from
the financial statement that had been made by his Right Hon.
Friend, he did no ant icipre any objection to his own project.
It was, however, evident that the formation of these railways
would lead to the consump4on of excisable articles. He was
not aware of the precise position in which the two countries
stood, but of this he was assured that from 600,000/. to
700,000/. would be added to the expenditure of the country.
That exp..sitiert ha, no ov run the gaoittle, of three C l"
hanca.' of
the Bac, equer and a late Prone minister, and he thought, therefore,
that they might take It for granted that no
.man in that House was
~repared to oppose it. Trey might, therefore, cons'de the propere-
tion of the ',fight Hon. Gentleman to he this—to prevent the;a,ditien
of 650,000/. to the revenue of the country without the imposition of
the
any new tax whatsoever. The Right lion. Gentleman forovied i
track the Chancellor of t ,c Exchequer, and confirmed his statement
that t
that there re no railways in Ireland:excepting on the eastern
What, no railways , xcepting en the eastern coast, where. . tcoast.
What,
_
Chancellor o the exchequer assured them there was no distressw
in
ft might be true that the completed railways,
process of construction were chiefly on the eastern coast,
and thoshehitiodid
it
not occur to the Right Hon. Gentleman that, Perhaps the absence
of disrress might be owing to the fact of railways being already con-
,tructed there ? There remained seine lines *to construct on that part
of the country, as seventy miles of railway from Dublin to Wexford,
seventy or seventy-five miles from Drogheda to Portadown, thirty or
forty miles front Belfast to Navan and Coleraine—these lino all re-
mained to be constructed on the eastern coast,; the .ther railways
which yet remained to be constructed, exteuded north-west, south-
west, and due west, and there it was universally admitted that the
greatest disrress prevailed. What PIO of Ireland had. shown
A blacker picture of misery than the county of C .rk ? .and yet to the
city of Cork no less thau tour railways oiverged. There was an-
other railway to Athlone—there was a Hill before Psaarliamaellitiliwrrhieh
he was informed was sure to pass, as it was u o
his "Bill not only 'n
Athlone to Galway and Roscommon. Now,
pro-
vided tor the Acts already obtained, bat for thoschalshianwe which were ssiY.,ehrehltiho
be afterwards obtained. There was also a brarsh
to Mullingar, and a Bill had been got last yearteohc,,o, the Act pans-
*of the parties to
ing without opposition, but from the incompetency
raise • the money the railway was abandone He was sure that
if the Bill he had had the honour of introducing
to the House were passed, the line to Sligo would
aga,n be brought before Parliamentand carried.— (Hear, hear.)
Then they would
3 to every part of Ireland ; there
would be no countywhich would not be traversed by a
havein Irelandrailwa-
'
railway. The Right Ilon. Gentleman told the House that there
would be great diMculty raising
ithe4,ooo,ooo/. sterling per annum
without lowering the funds. Why, in Raising
4n'ooot 0lfs0s0t11;a1 n time of
annum, but the thought f war, they had for many years
mightra have occurred to the Right Hon.
Baronet that last year there was nso less than 110,000,0001. sterling of
deposits shut up in the Court of Chancery, waiting for cer ain Bills
to pass through Parliament, and in the next five years
122,000,000/. would be expended on the completion of lines
which had already received their Acts. 'What would be
the operation of this loan upon the funds ? Why in
f
the month of December, 1845, the ands were 93, and in June of the
following year, 97. What pretence, then, was there for saying that
in a country like this, whereit was calculated there was an annual
not
saving of 5001,0001., they could raise 4,000,0001. for the improve-
ment of the empire without loweringie fundsr; The funds were not
to any great extent affected when 20,000,0091 were raised for the
emancipation of the West Indian slaves. The Right Hon. Baronet
said, also, that private enterprise, even
.when supported by the in-
linens* of Government, had always failed in Ireland. He would
wish him to tax his memory, and to refer to the years between 1822
and 1828 (and he would fit 1 a report on the subject on the table of
the House), an outlay of
and 140,0001. was made IR the counties of
Galway, Mayo, Cork, Kerry, and the revenue in
these towns alone bad risen to 6,0001. per annum.
It was said Government had spent something like a million and a
half upon the Caledonian Canal, and the investment had proved a
dead loss to the State. But what wits
didwii
ts the cause of its proving a dead
loss? Why, because Governitn,ie
?,u t go upon the principle of
t acted upon the principle
giving assistance to private eer pri
of speculating on their own account. By the measure, however, be-
fore the House, no such attempt would be made, but It would rather
de of stontilating enterprise. private
go upon the minaThe Hen.
Member tot Lincoln bad told them a few
I were days ago 'that if this
passed, he could etsploy rin Bill
Men on Irish railways,
under his management, 7,000 of whom would be f laced
on the Belfast, Drogheda, and Naven line. Now, what
was the state of that country?
—Y, in a letter he bud
received from the daughter of the Protestant Bishop of
Neath, lie had a descriptions of a family living in Cavan. The woman
of the house was represented, just after child-birth, as lying dead, a
child, some six years of age, lying dead by her side, the father, with
nothing but a shirt on, lying dead in the straw, and the rats crawling'
over him —all of whom had died front starvation. But this was
only a mitigated sketch of the picture ; and yet, if this Bill were
carried, 70,000 men could be at once put into employment in that
very town. The letter, moreover, stated that numbers of the people
died of starvation, and that, in the opinion of the writer, the mea-
sure of the Noble Lord was the only measure' proposed
in Parliament calculated to meet the emergency of the crisis
The !•7611e Lord then read a nuatbsr of other letters front Ireland
similar import, and all expressing their opinion that the proposal of
the Noble Lord was the only beneficial one which had as yet been
propoulidud to the lious:. He offered to the House a measure for
which he wanted a clear stage and nn favour--one which woo not
shaped to fUrther private interest or public, patronage. He was
desirous to answer the arguments brought forward by the Chancellor
of the Exchequer (who he regretted had left the House
from Indisposition), but In consequence of the absence , of the

Right Hon. Gentleman, he did not wish to dwell upon his state-
ment, but had he been in the House, he would have contradicted
everything he had said.—(Laughter.) It had been said that his
object was to promote the interests of the great lines already made,
or in progress, but that was not the object of his Bill. The strong
lines could take care of themselves. The London and Birmingham
of Ireland, the Ulster line, was ten years in dragging its slow length
along ; and after all, only 24 miles had been completed. On this
line there had been 21,000 passengers against every 13,000 on the
London and Birmingham line. Ile understood that certain railway
companies had offered better terms than he proposed, if the Govern-
ment would lend assistance, bat his object was to interset the whole
country with a system el railways, and not to select the best paying lines.
Now, then, taking into acement the returns for traffic on the Belgian
aad American railways, he thought there was an absolute certainty
that not only would the Irish railways be able to repay the Govern-
ment advances, but that they would also realise a very considerable
profit. He thought that the Right Hon. Baronet the Mehiber for
Tamworth was quite convinced that the statement made by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, on the authority of some " great un-
known," with respect to the employment of 25 or 30 men per mile
upon the railways was altogether erroneous. He was quite sure that
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not made his statements on
the authority of Mr. Brunel, lor ho (Lord G. Bentinck) saw, from a
report of that gentleman, that he could employ upon the Stranmore
Railway, a line of seven miles in length, from 700 to 1,000 men.
Then the Hon. and gallant Admiral the Member for Marylebone
told the House that the Irish labourers were not
capable of performing the works on those railways. There was so
men be the House who had greater respect for the Gallant Admiral
than he had when In his proper sphere--(L ughter.) And if Com-
modore Connor and General Taylor should succeed in annexing
Mexico, and turn their attention to the British West InSies, or if Prince
.Mitiville should think proper to sail up the Thames with an arma-
ment, as his Highness once thrsatem d to do, there was no officer in
the British navy, he (Lord G. Bentinck) should wish to see in com-
mand of the fleet more than the Gallant Adreiral.—(Cheers ) But
the moment the Galls .t Admiral s opt from the gangway, or get
into the dockyard, or even set his foot on shore, 11 was as
inech out of his element as is fish out of water.—(Cheers.)
He understood that the Government empowered the Gallant Admiral
to build a steam ship of war, which he christened the " Sidon," but
the jolly tars, for treasons best known to themselves, and which
might be understood by the 'House had rechristened her, and called
her ",Drunken Charley,"—(Greot laughter.) Ile received a letter
from Thomastown, which informed him that the Relief Committee
was a sinecure, except when the weather was too bad to permit the
labourers to work upon the line.—(Hear, hear. He held
also in his hand a letter from a Major Wandesford,
which stated that theworks upon the Kilkenny and Waterford
railway had beell stopped for want of funds—and that the strangers
who had been emploced there were now going about the country
insisting on obtaining money or food. He would entreat the House
to pay attention to this fact—weep railways were carried on the
people were employed, and quietness prevailed—when they ceased,
riot and disorder was the consequence, and the assistance of the
police and military had to be sought for. The Hon. Member for
Cork had stated to the House, that 25,000 souls had already pe-
rished from the famine, and that two millions world follow: from
the same cause, and from pestilence, and he therefore entreated
that English Gentlemen would bear with him whilst he was endea-
vonr:ng to prove Isis case, and show that the measure
which he proposed was of vital importance.—(Hear, hear.)
The Noble Lord, after going into a lengthened statement of the
benefits which would accrue to the starving population of Ireland
from the passing of this Bill, prayed the House to pass it—that was
his only prayer, and ono which he should use if it were the last
time that he should ever have to address this House or any other
mortal assembly. (The Noble Lord sat down amid loud and pro-
, onged cheers.)
After a few observations from some Hon. Members,
Lord J. RUSSELL rose and said—That although he was not
willing to trespass upon the House, yet As his Right von. Frieud
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had commenced the debate,
and no Minister of the Crown having since taken part in
the discussion, he thought it was due to the House
and to state what were the general views which lie took on the
position of the country and of Ireland at the present moment. lie
would not go into the finani ial part of the question, and he would
merely say that he generally concurred in the views taken by the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth. The question of
rendering any assistance to Ireland was an extremely serious one.
There was no such failure in England or Scotland, with the
exception of the Highlands. which he would have made
the present year one of suffering and of difficulty in Great Britain,
not to make the pressure greater on the people of this country than
they could bear, so as to be able still to assist their fellow-country-
men in Ireland. He thought if they were to press to a very great
extent—to a very much greater extent than they were now pressing
--the drain upon the resources of this country, they would find that
without entirely enabling the people of Ireland to escape from the
terrible consequences of the present famine, they would be
disabling the people of England and Scotland from giving
that assistance which he was sure they were cheerfully
disposed to do. With this view, therefore, of nnances, of the
commercial and agricultural position ; he had to consider how the
means of this country coati be best disposed to preserve the greatest
number of human creatures from perishing. That appeared to hint
to be the very serious, painful, and, at the came time, true view of
the case. In the last week no less than 600,000 persons bad re-
ceived wages from what were called the Public Works in Ireland ;
and they represented about three millions of people. There were
a hundred thousand more in the workhouses of Ireland
maintained by the rates. There were thousands and thou-
sands more maintained by private charity in Ireland, and being
the exertions of resident landowmers, many of whom had given an
admirable example of sacrificing their comforts for the poorer classes
in Ireland. Ile had to consider, when more than three millions—say
three-and-a-half millions—of poor persons living, whether from the
Treasury, whether from the rate collected, whether by subscriptions,
I or altogether by charitable donations ; he had to consider whether
the proposition of his Noble Friend was one that tended in
any way to the removal of these distresses. On that
point he did not think that the preposition was
effectual, in the manner in which gentlemen—some of them
the representatives of Ireland and others in Ireland had been led to
believe. He could not think so, bocause they would see that the
money which he was taking from these different sources were all
applied, or intended to be applied, to the relief of the most distressed
persons, and to the relief oft .ose most destitute and most in want
of food. That natural employment given by railway contractors
was to the most able-bodied, and those who were best
all'e to hear hard and laborious operations. His
Noble Friend, in his speech, had seemed to eontsadict a state-
ment made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the Limerick
and Waterford Railway had declined to employ labourers. He be-
lieved that the statement of his Hen. Friend was perfectly correct,
and o amounted to this,—not that they had ref Used to employ the
able-bodied labourers of the neighbourhood through which the rail-
way was carried, but that they said (he had the letter of the secre-
tary there) that they did object to employ the worst classes of
labourers and destitute poor. Those whom they would like to em-
ploy were of course the best and most able-bodied members. If it
was any satisfaction to the Noble Lord, he would read the letter.
The Noble Lord then read the letter, which stated that there was
ns objection to employ the labourers in the neighbourhood of the
railway, but that the 'railway company did object to pay the
destitute, taking the good and bail labourers together.
In the couse of the discussion, the Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Sunderland (Mr. Hudson) also was well acquainted with railways,
had made various statements to the labourers employed by railway
companies. Now he (Lord J. Russell) had received various state-
mente front different quarters, particularly from the various reports
made public in the railway papers of this country ; and from those
reports it appeared, that although the Hon. Gentlemen said so much
was expended in a permanen way and in land, and that it wits to be
inferred that the remainder was expended in labour. He (Jsord
Joint Russell) was correet in stating that that remainder included
large 81.1111 S for locomotive engines, and for the construction of eta_
tions.—(Hear.) By a statement which he held in his hand with re-
spect to the North Midland, it appeared that 190,000/. was expended
for locomotives, and 360,000/. for stations. —(Hear.) The Hon. Gen-
tleman knew perfectly well, that although the construction of those
locomotives required labour, it was not a species of labour which
would call into exercise the labour of the destitute poor of Ireland.—
(Loud cheers. With regard to the illustration of the Hon. Gentleman
that out of 27,0001. a mile, about 6,0001. would be paid in labour, he
could hardly see how this could take place when the expense of loco-
' an tives and stations would have to be paid out of it.
Mr. HUDSON wished to correct the Noble Lord. He rated that
5,5001. was expended for the permanent way, and that the re-
mainder wouldebe expended in labour.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said all the statements which he had bean
able obtain concurred in stating that one-half was spent in labout, but
then, that half included a vast deal of still labour, and that not more
than one-fourth of 25 per cent. would to expended in ordinary manual
labour. As his Noble Friend had stated over and over again that the Bill
was light, formed for the purpose of saving millions of the people
of Ireland from starving, he must go into the particulars ; and when
he fouad that out of that 16.000,000/. only one-fourth would be ex-
pended on unskilled labonr, he must say, that if it did not do
more than that it would do little towards relieving the distress off
the people.—(Hear, hear.) Every one who knew anything o
Ireland must be aware that skilled labour —susuch as the
blacksimths, carpenters, there was net a great supply
certainly there was no superabundant supply, as compared with the
rest of the labourers, seeking to be employed in Ireland ; and the
terms which they demanded, were as high as the wages of persons
of a similar class in this country. And that, so far from those per-
sons being in want of employment, they were parties, amongst
whom combinations existed, in order to obtain a high rate of
wages. He heard one instance of this in Galway, whilst
great distress prevailed in the town and its neighbaurhood.
there happened to be two or three buildings, at which a number of
masons might have obtained employment, but they stood out for
higher wages—for more than 2s. Gd. a day, Ile then said that if
they applied that large sum to paid labour, the word labour itself
would become a complete delusion, because the half of that amount
would be given to labour that was really skilled, and of which there
atwas presentot
supply existing in Ireland. He came, there-
to
this
general view, that the finances of
the country being very severely pressed upon by the demand
for relief to the misery at present existing in Ireland, that the
manufactures and commerce of this country, that the wages of
industry in this country being likewise severely pressed upon by the
suffering state of Ireland, that unless this Bill was a
11111 which
would give immediate relief to the destitution which pre-
vailed, it was not one that the Parliament ought to adopt,
for the short reasons he had already given, and with which
present
conclusion
he thought the lion. Member for Sunderland might concur, viz.,
that if three-fourths of this sum would not go to the relief of that
destitution, the Government should not support that measure. He
was not disposed to go into the general question as to whether it
was desirable for the Government to advance money to
railways. There were questions connected with this matter
to which he would not at present refer, but at all
events he thought that any advance made to railways
should be made in a different state of the country, and shouid be ad
vanced only on the principles that had f rmesly actuated the Go-
vernment in making advances for public works. He was far, how-
ever, from saying, that there might not be eccasio..s on which these
advances should be made. The Noble Lord was aware that such
advances had been made in England, with the happlest
results, and there were other public works in Ireland which
had been undertaken by Government, and which had been eminently
useful ; and he would not say that railways should not come under
the same principle. Ile was far from making any complaint against
the Noble Lord for bringing forward this measure, which he (Lord
George Bentinck) conscientiously believed would be of service to Ire-
land, and which would, if sanctioned by Parliament, tend to miti-
gate the miseries and evils of that country. But the Noble Lord
'oust, at the same time, see that that furnished no reason why he
should expect that a Minister of the Crown should take the same view
that lie did of the utility of this measure, or that he should adopt a
principle of which they disapproved. He thought it Impossible that
any Government should allow the management of their finances to
be directed by the Noble Lord according to a plain of which they
disapproved ; and while ' he conceded to the Noble Lord
the best motives for hurrylag forward this measure
Ile must say, that feeling himself responsible for the conduct of
affairs in a most important crisis, all he could do was to bring
forward such measures as he believed best calculated to relieve the
destitution and distress prevailing in Ireland, and to ask the House
to give its sanction to those measures. If supported by Parliameut
he might be encouraged to go on, and to meet every difficulty, but if
a Minister at the head of affairs were to be crippled in the efforts he
might make by the introduction of such measures as the present,
he thought that he would be taking only a constitutional course
in "interesting those who he believed were willing to sup-
port him in the Government, that unless they were supported
by the House they would be unfitted to continue at the bead of affairs.
The Noble Lord was perfectly right if he supposed that this measure
was for the benefit of Ireland, or if he thought that these measures
were likely to improve the condition of that country.
For several minutes the House was in a state of great excitement,
during which the cries for division were loud, frequent, and vehe-
ment.

RAILWAY BILLS CLASSIFICA-

TION.
The Select Committee have published a corrected first re.
port, which contains 24 groups of railway Bills. The docu-
ment only differs from that which we published a few days
since, in the following instances, and we therefore do not re-
publish the report:—
GROUP No. 6.-142. Southampton and Dorchester, Bland-
ford Branch) is transferred from Group No. 7, and stands
eighth on the group.
GROUP No. 8.-242. Sutton Harbour Improvement Com-
pany (power to the London and South-Western Railway
Company to subscribe thereto). This is inserted into this
group, and stands fourth in order.
Gnous No. 19.—The following bills are added to this
group, and stand third, fourth, and fifth in order :-
862. London and North-Western Railway (Atherston and
Whitacre Branch).

368. London arid North-Western Railway (Coventry and
Nuneaton Branch j,

370. Coventry, Nuneaton, and Birmingham and Leicester
Railway (power Ito purchase to the London and North-
Western Company, and Midland Railway Company pur-
chase).
FURTHER REPORT FROM THE SELECT COM.

The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the second reading llB
Against it... 322—
Majority against the Bill
The Bill is consequently lost.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the House
adjourned at Half-past Three o'clock.

STOCKINGS FOR THE ROYAL INFANTS.--The
C/are Journal says—" We feel great pleasure in recording
an instance of her Majesty's wish to encourage by her pa-
tronage the native manufactures of Ireland. Two girls, sis-
ters, of the name of Davies, living in Corofin, in this county,
having long enjoyed a well-deserved reputation for the taste
and skill evinced by them in the knitting of stockings, were
advised to present a pair of them to her Majesty, who was
so pleased with the beauty of design and execution dis-
played in them, as to order four and twenty pair for the
royal infants."
GAOL PERQUISITES.—It came out in the course of
proceedings at Lambeth Police -court on Monday, that the Go-
vernor of Hprsemonger-lane Gaol makes a perquisite by giv-
ing copies of the commitments of the prisoners to their
friends, for which half-a• crown each is charged.
The Marquis of Northampton ha, accepted the
office of Patron of the College of Preceptors.
PHILANTHROPIC SOCIETY, Sr. EORGE'S-FIELDS.—
From the report just published of the above Society, it ap-
pears that during the past two months eleven additional
boys have been received into the Institution, from different
prisons, of whom five were orphans. Twenty-five have
been admitted from Parkhurst Prison, Isle of Wight, upon
the recommendation of the Secretary of State for the
areome
Department. Among the donations recently forwarded
those from William Wilberforce, Esq., 211; Miss nyon B
(second donation), 31/. 10s.; . Baring. arlpg, Esq., 20/.
e_
We regret to atino
Aa:cevEfsdsay:eslin,licEeN.
s,llerTLhaisd):l6itlip.
Dowager
was
e n.
io
0 Shrewsbury, whoseee the
seriousde ca
indisposition
Countesswas
mentionedDEATH ionrthLisAjnourtnia,al
mable lady died on Wednesday last, at her seat in Devon-
shire. Her Ladyship was only daughter of the late Earl
thelsllth
Dianvers, and was born June 19, 174131.