The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-03 00:00:00

resolutions showed that they were fully alive to the
amount of danger that existed in the country. The
landlords of Ireland were united, without reference to
political faction or creed, for the good of their country.
They were united not to destroy but to preserve. It
was to prevent the horrors of social revolution that they
were united. Not to involve the country in anarchy
and confusion, but to raise the condition of the people,
and to save all classes—(he used the words of the reso-
lution on which their union was formed)—to raise the
social condition of the people and to save all classes from
the ruin with which they were at present menaced. He
could assure his Hon. Friend that that union amongst
the Irish gentlemen on this subject was but a faint re-
flection of the unity of purpose and, harmony of
feeling existing among all classes in Ireland on the pre-
sent occasion. This heavy visitation—this great calamity
this visitation of Providence had softened men's hearts,
and called forth holier and better impulses. It was de-
lightful to see on tho relief committees men whom early

prejudices—whom strong prepossessions—and
perhaps, the influence
.of stern principles bad hitherto
kept sundered from each other ; it was delightful to
to see them emulating each other in endeavou►ing to al-
leviate the want of their fellow creatures.—(Cheers.)
It was delightful to see prejudice gradually dissipating—
those prepossessions gra,Jualiy disappearing—and a foun-
dation laid for friendship, and harmony, and good feel-
ing, among the different classes of the community, which
he trusted would long survive the unhappy occasion
which had given rise to them. The Bight Hon. Gentle-
man the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the Right
llo❑. Gentleman, the Secretary for Ireland,. had, on a
previous occasion said, that co-operation among the
Irish was essential for the successful carrying out of any
measures which might be derived, or of any laws that
might be made by this Parliament for the improvement
of the condition of Ireland. He could agree with senti-
ments so expressed, and ho believed that co-operation,
energy, and activity, among the people of Ireland them-
selves ; and, above all, a kind co-operation on this
subject by parties who had kept too much
asunder, were essentially necessary for the proper
carrying out of any measure, however well contrived,
by any Government in this country. On the part of the
United Irishmen he thought he could tender their zea-

lous co operation, for they were anxious to support any
measure, let it come from what quarter it might, which
they considered calculated to improve the social condi-
tion of that country. Me was sure, at all events, that
all measures w&uld be considered irrespective of any
party consideration ; and he would say for himself, that
he most unfeignedly trusted to congratulate her Ma-
jesty's Government on any measure they might propose,
and which would be doubtless sanctioned by the Legis-
lature. and which should be, in his opinion, calculated
to relieve the present distress, and contribute to promote
the improvement of Ireland.—(Cheers,)

Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL said it was not his intention to
have occupied the time of the House long during this debate,
simply for this reason—that while they were delaying the pro-
gress of this and other measures the people of Ireland were
Perishing from hunger.—(Hear, hear.) Even the utmost
haste that the House could make in passing this measure would
not save the lives of those who were at that period perishing.
(Cheers.) It was, therefore, incumbent on the House to
enable her Majesty's Mir.isters to carry into execution those
measures which they had brought forward on their own re-
sponsibility, which they, on the fullest consideration, believed
would prevent the people from being swept from the land by
the calamity with which it had been visited, with the least
possible delay. During the debate two or three character-
istics had come strongly out, to which he proposed to devote a
few remarks. In the first place, he begged to bear testimony,
and his thankful testimony, to the commiseration which
the House had evinced for the distresses of Ireland
—(Hear, hear)—to the great readiness evinced by
Hon. Members on both sides of the House to adopt the
strongest measures that might appear necessary to afford relief
to Ireland. The next characteristic was—he was sorry to say
—a Cegree of ignorance, on the part of the House, of the
social condition of Ireland; which, after having occupied a
seat for fifteen years in that House, he was not prepared to
find. This ignorance pressed more strongly upon him than
ever the conviction, which he had always,—that a Parliament
resident and sitting in a country was the only competent body
to take care of the interests of that country, and what was
beneficial to its inhabitants. Then attacks had been male on

the landlords of Ireland. One gentleman had rendered him-
self very prominent in thin respect Anything, however, com-
ing from him had very little weight in that house, and still

let; weight in Ireland. lle 3 poke of the Honourable
Member for Bath (Mr. Roebuck) who seemed to take pleasure
when almost every other Member in th:: House was anxious to
avoid every topic of an irritating nature, to banish all preju-
dices, and when nothing bat considerations of humanity had
any influence over them ; in making malignant attacks, ie
raising ill-feeling, and preventing a full and fair consideration
of the important measures before the House. The Honourable
Member kept up a series of incessant attacks upon the Catholic
priesthood, which at the present period was, of all times, the
most unjust, seeing that they ware sacrificing their lives in
attending to the destitute and afflicted. fhey, however,
needed not his vindication any more than they heeded his at-
tacks. The Honourable Member had also attacked the

people of Ireland. He said, " that they came to the
House in an abject candition to beg." He (Mr. J. O'Con-
nell) denied the assertion. '1 hey did not deserve such
an aspersion upon their character. The Hon. Member tor
the University of Oxford, had justly spoken of the heroic for-
titude of the people under their sufferings. And these were
the people who had been used by the Hon. Member for Bath
as the target of his foul aspersions. The Hon. Member had
also attacked the landlords of Ireland,he was not there to vin-
dicate them, or to say that they had not done wrong, if they
had, however, done so, the House was much to blame for their
conduct in consequence of the course of Legislation
they had pursued, in putting temptations in the way
of those who were unable to ,exist them.—( Hear, hear. )
Indeed there was no parallel to the distress which at present
existed in Ireland. But considering the calamities which had
come upon them, considering the short time that there has
tren to look out for proi:er meamres of relief, he considered
that the landlords of Ireland generally acted their part fully as
well as the pour had borne their suffering=.—(Hear, hear.) Ile
was also bound to bear hi.i testinvnv, to that of the lion.
Member for the University of Dublin, to that most

delightful unanimity which has appeared in Ir.land,

They

had- al agreed to forge! their miserab'e differences
and he had been sus prised and grat;fied beyond
meesure to see gentlemen chom had been sundered by party
dissensions meeting each other ivbh the utmo t cordiality, the
only enreest between them being who would best show their
anxiety to relieve the people. He was still further hound to
observe, and glad to remark, that between the clergymen of the
different denominations, and there were several en the com-
mittee of which he had the honour to be chairman, there ex-
isted the most cordial union of brotherhood, and the strongest
efforts to outdo each other in acts of Christian charity. The
union was amongst their gloom, and misery a gleam of light
from which he augured mech good. He hoped that it would
be permanent, and that from this day forth they might date
the prosperity of Ireland, sod that they would no longer pre-
sent the appearance of a divided nation, but of one which
would hold together and work together. He had been be-
trayed into a greater length than usual, but he, wished to say a
few words upon the measure before the House. He
was bound to *ay that he considered that the Government
committed a mistake in not endeavouring to supply
food—he did not mean to supply fond to a whole
nation, but had the soup plan even been put
into operation a far different result would have happened.
He was fully aware of the inconvenience, as well as the ex-
pense which would attend Government interference, with
regard to the supply of food, and a!so that markets would rise
if Government went into the market as a purchaser. He had
no hesitation, however, in saying that they ought to have held
cut hopes to the n,erchant that he would sustain no loss by the
supplies he brought. He thought that the first loss would
have been the best. He believed that if food had been
supplied in the first instance the labourers of the country
would not have been withdrawn from their ordinary
occupations to take employment upon the public works.
--(Hear, hear.) He did not, however, imagine"
that any other steps could be taken lest August than what
were taken by the Government, but he was of opinion that
the suspension of the 4s. duty and the navigation-laws should
have been proposed sooner.—( Hear, hear.) He formed great
hopes of the great advantage which would attend the esta-
blishment of soup kitchens, and he begged the House not to
lose a moment in establishing these relief committees, for the
people were dying, not by thousands, but by hundreds of
thousands. He did not approve of their system of
poor-laws, but under the present circumstances of the
country, he would not oppose the measure. The
capital of the country and the property of the country
would be destroyed, still he would no more opposed that mea-
sure than it he were on board a sinking ship he should oppose
the construction of a raft out of the planks of the ship. It was
necessary to adopt any measure to meet the present state of
Ireland, and he readily grasped like a drowning man at the pro-
posed measure, and cordially withdrew any opposition that he
would otherwise have been prepared to offer to the measure.
There was a general complaint of a want of comprehensiveness
of the measures of her Majesty's Government. The
great question of the repeal of the union was con-
sidered, however it might be treated in the
House, as the panacea for all the evils that affected
the country. That subject would one day be brought most
powerfully under the consideration of the House. He begged,
in conclusion, to offer his tribute of gratitude to the admirable
speech of the Hon. Member for the University of Dublin.
He would apologise for having, even by the small time which
he had occupied by the delivery of his speech, prevented the
passing of the measures introduced by the Government, and
hoped that the further discussion of the measures would lie
conducted in a kind and friendly spirit.
Lord CASTLEREAGH would tender his most cordial

thanks to the Noble Lord at the head of the Government for
the measures which he had introduced, in order to meet the
alarming state of the distress under which the people of Ire-
land were suffering. He cordially approved of the measure to
sanction the proceedings which had taker, place under the Trea•
sury Minute. To the Lord Lieutenant of the country the
greatest praise was due for his exertions to mitigate the exist-
ing distress. He thought the general accusation against the
Irish landlords was entirely unfounded. The House ought to
know who those landlords were. who were alluded to. There
was one point in the Government measures which did not seem
to give so much satisfaction to the House as some other parts
of the scheme, and one or two of which he was sorry to hear
the Chancellor of the Exchequer say that he did not
entertain very sanguine expectations (he alluded to the
grant of a million of money for the reclamation of the waste
lands). He thought the measure highly desirable. With re-
spect to the absentee landlords, he would only say that he
would be the first person to oppose any scheme which proposed
to levy a tax upon that class.—( Hear, hear.) The employ-
ment of the people upon public works had been attended with
very serious results, and he thought that a just system of out-
door relief to the able-bodied paupers was desirable.
The Hon. CECIL LAWLESS, as the representative of
one of the largest and most important constituencies, begged to
say, notwithstanding this was his first essay to overcome the
timidity of addressing the House, that all the measures which
.were now proposed, however good they might be in themselves,
were proposed at least six months too late. Ireland had now
arrived' t a crisis, and she must either be swept from her
place in the scale of nations, or become great, glorious, and
free in her self, and with her rise or fall this country was most
think hisfr
retht intimatelyu bound up. He gave the Hon. Member for Bath full
u
via knowledge
ewswerea
abstractpopfyicable
to thspeeecxuilsattiinegnss,t
abtaetuhf elrdeildaundo;t
E
they were most u
not for th
nglish in their character, and not dictated
by that feeling o
• Mr. GREGORYwa
sympathy
s one oef thosesufferinpgersoofnls wh
relaondwwerheicsho
they should be.
wrapt up in the science of
the Government-had actsed*
upolitical economy as not to see that
which-they had given at theniselY in
abiding
by the pledge
with the operations elose of the last session not to in-
interferetime when the strict maxims of political trade.i If ever there was a
aside, it was when distress was psouitical economy should be set
of Ireland.;./ They had by this coirivetalen over the whole
acourligement
to the,
mercuuts
sand
given the greatest
,cclo,l44)ri Icelead.

' He beard with great pleasure the speech of the Noble Lord
the Member for Lynn, and that of the other Noble Lord, who
headed that party in the other House, but he did not agree
with his (Lord George Bentinck's) sentiments with regard
to the speculations. He agreed with him, however, that they
should not allow the people of Ireland to starve. He regretted
he was not in the House the other night, when the Chancellor
of the Exchequer said that the depots in the western part of
Ireland were opened to meet the wants of the people. The
Hon. Member for Donegal, he was glad to see, had denied
that statement, and he himself, though living within seven-
teen miles of Galway, could say, that until Thursday last, not
a single pound of provisions was given out from the
stores in that locality.—(Hear, hear.) In proof of
this the Honourable Gentleman read a letter from Galway,
to the effect that the depots had not yet been opened, and that
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made a misstatement on
that subject. When the people were dying, and when it was
found that they were being demoralised by the means which
the Government had carried out, then it was proposed to make
the changer which were now contemplated. He could make
every allowance for the difficulties of Government, but far-
seeing and sagacious statesmen would have adopted a very
different course. The great evil of the labour-rate Act was its
diversion of labour from its ordinary channels, and of holding
out the prospect that the produce of 1848 would be inferior to
that of 1847. The Honourable Member, after reading the
prophecies of Lord Monteagle and the Duke of Grafton,
with regard to the Labour-rate Act, said that these prophecies
were carried out, and thought the Government pretended to
adhere to the principles of political economy. In his opinion,
their proceedings showed a departure from them, which he
could not reconcile with their profes.ions. Why, he would
ask, did not they propose the contemplated measures sooner,
when their advantage would have had much more efficiency ?
Before he sat down, he gave the Noble Lord credit for good
intentions, but he thought that he should have brought for-
ward some measure for carrying out a system of railways.
But as his Noble Friend the Member for Lynn intended to
bring in a measure on this subject, he would not allude to it
further at present. He was somewhat surprised,
also, that the Noble Lord did not propose to
establish agricultural schools. A measure of this kind would
produce incalculable good, and, instead of advancing one
million to reclaim the waste lands, it would be expended on
the establishment of these schools—the benefit to the people of
Ireland would be much- greater. The great principle which
every Legislature should adopt, with regard to Ireland, should
be to lessen the amount of responsibility with regard to
the measures ; and he did not think the measures of the Noble
Lord sufficiently stringent to oarry out that principle.
He would not allude then to the poor-law, but with regard to
emigration he had no very sanguine hopes of the success of that
plan of the Noble Lord. • Before he sat down he begged to say
one word for the position of the landlords of Ireland. The re-
sponsibility of all the social evils of Ireland had been cast upon
the landlords, and upon whom the slightest punishment that
should be inflicted was eenfiscation was contended. Atter all,
the same imputation might be cast on the landlords of Scotland.
What was it that prevented the poplation of this country
from being dependant upon potatoes, and enduring the same
calamity as that which afflicted Ireland ; but the existence of
manufactories, as well the children as the parents of production.
The early birth of manufactures had been early crushed in
Ireland. Let them regard the north of Ireland. At first the
evils of Ireland were ascribed to the idleness of the lower
classes, then to the injurious influence of the middlemen, and
lastly it was thrown upon the landlords. It should, however,
be recollected that the landlords of Ireland were, under the
pressure of circumstances, that could not affect the landlords of
this country, and from which he trusted they would be ever
exempted. The true means of elevating the people of Ireland,
would he to give to every man in that country an outlet for his
exertion and fair protection for the same.
Sir H. W. BARRON was glad to see such Gentlemen as
the Hon. Member who last addressed the House come forward
and express himself in the way he had done. He was a Gen-
tleman with whom he should feel no hesitation to act, and
he was glad to see that the feuds which existed
between parties in Ireland were fast dying away.
It was also gratifying to see that the Government of
this country was acting upon a different principle to
that upon which they had too lone acted, and that they had
abandoned altogether the principle of " diride et impera."
It had been asserted by that Hon. Gentleman that
England paid 12,000.0001. of taxation more in proportion than
Ireland. Now a more fallacious statement was never tittered
in that House. He took the trouble of examining the income
and expenditure of the United Kingdom, and he found that out
of 51,000,000/. Ireland bore a proportion of 44,000,00 W,
leaving only one half of the proportion stated by the
Hoe. Member. Now, with respect to the amount of taxation
in Ireland, not more than three million pounds was spent in
Ireland. With respect to what had been said about loans to
Ireland, namely, that they had never been repaid ; now, a
more mendacious assertion than that had never been made.
fie need only refer t r the tables and documents
with which Hon. Gentlemen were well acquainted, to prove
the utter mistake of this assertion. It had, indeed, been
asserted that loans had been made to the clergy,
which had never been repaid, but he would beg
to remind Hon. Gentlemen that these loans were not made at
the request of the Irish people, but merely to carry out the
views and purposes of the Government of the day. There
never had been a loan paid to Ireland that had not been repaid
with usurious interest. Here, when money was lent to public
companies or private individuals, the rate of interest charged
was 3 per cent., while that charged in Ireland was 5 per cent.
Hew, then, was the statement of the Hon. Member for Bath
sustained in the assertion he made in the House the other
night, that there was a continual drain upon the people of
England for the support of the people of Ireland ?
In the reign of George 111., you legislated, and made the Irish
Parliament to meet in England. Was there ever such a
mockery of legislation as this? They were now suffering the
results of the tyranny of an English Parliament legislating for
Ireland; and it was not until the American war reduced them
to the lowest ettremity that any alteration had been made.
He would grant, that within the last thirty or forty years a
wiser policy had been pursued. In the words of the lion.
Member for Bath, they had redaced the Irish people to the
lowest state of degradation, and on'them be the shame of their
fault. They talked of Irish ignorance—who made them igno-
rant? Why, had they not enacted that it should be a felons
for any Romsn,Catholic to keep a school in Ireland? and on
them be the shame of the results. They had made the people
what they were, and was it astonishing that they saw the bitter
fruits rising around them. They had made the Irish people
what they were, and this was the reason why the power of
Sax m and English legislation was hateful to Ireland. He re.
ere`ted this. for the English people were a great, a generous,
and a charitable people. There was another evil. It was
made a charge against the people of Ireland that the gifts of
the Eng:ish Parliament hod born misapplied, and that the money
which had been sent over for the public works had been mis-
applied for the purchase of fire-arms ; and representations had
been made to him as a to tgistrate, that fire-arms had been pur-
chased for purposes of violence. But what was the case? Why,
on inquiry, he found that not a single firelock had been pur-
chased but for the sake of defence, and that the only
purcha,es had been made for the defence of pro-
eerty ; and at a meeting held at Carberry, where
this subject was fully considered, a resolution was cthne
to, in which he most cordially concurred, that not a single
stand of arms had been purchased in the county of Cork, anti
especially in the neighbourhood of Skibbereen, except for the
purpose which he had just stated. It was found that cnly
fifteen guns and two pistols had been sold in that neighbour-
hood. He was himself the chairman of two relief committees
in his own county, and he deeply regretted that statements had
be tn made by many Hon. Members of that House of the
characters of the Irish people, for he could bear witness that
no people could have borne this dreadful visitation of Provi-
dence better than the Irish people.—( Hear.) Great complaints
had been made of the money appropriated by this country for
the rata of the distress in Ireland. Why, in the existence of
such a calamity as this, was 110 relief to be granted ? What did
they do in the case of an insignificant colony of this country—
the case of Quebec, when an awful calamity befel that city?
They had at once granted 20,0e01. to the inhabitants of Quebec,
and when a still more distressing calamity befel a more insig-
nificant colony—he alluded to the conflagration of the city of
St. John's, Newfoundland—they had granted 30,0001. without
hesitation. Was it too much then to grant 4,000,000/. or
5,000,000/. for the relief of the distress of Ireland, where up-
wards of two millions of people were suffering the extremity
of destitution. In such a case as this they ought to consider
Cork as Bristol, and Waterford as York. They did not come
to that House for charity but for that relief to which the Irish
people were fully entitled. Then, as regarded the alteration
of the law of real property and the tenure of land, he quite
agreed with the suggestions that had heen put forward. With
regard to the compensation to tenants for the improvement
which they had made on their holdings, and
he was very glad that the Government had taken
this subject into their consideration, for he believed that
the tenants were fully entitled to it. Then, with respect to
the project for the reclamation of waste lands, he differed with
the Hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. B. Osborne), for he
believed a wiser or a more prudent course could not have been
adepted. He believed that the money thus expended would
not only be useful in the employment of the peasantry, but
also in the attaining a ;permanent benefit for Ireland. Then,
as respected the adoption of a poor-law for that country, he
believed that it would be one of the greatest benefits for that
country. Tess years ago, he believed he had stood nearly alone
in the advocating of this measure ; but late experience had
shown the benefits that were likely to arise from its adoption,
and he was rejoiced to find that the Ministry had made it a
part of their system for the improvement of Ireland.
He warned the Government that unless they compelled every
landlord to support the poor on his own property the poor-law
would produce enormous mischief instead of good, and they
would be doing a great injustice upon a large portion of the
landed interests of Ireland. There was ssarcely an estate, in
his own knowledge, that could not be properly improved by
the use of a little increased energy and exertion, while in his
own neighbourhood there was net an estate which
could not give employment. There was no subject of
more vital importance than this, and he trusted Government
would not loose sight of it. There was one subject more
he wished to touch upon—namely, railways. He trusted
mlrnelsatnhdeweasm
plony
eedx
iacen pt thi
iosn e tmo e
rtgheen
egye, nen rnadl rhuel e
k.
Government would remember that the present emergencies of
nelw'hneo people
legitimate way of doing so than by assisting great
who had embarked large sums of money in the railways of Ire-
land.—( Hear, hear.) He could not sit down without offer-
ing his heartfelt thanks to the charitable and humane
people
of England, who had so forwardliberally
assist Ireland in her present difficulties. Such acts
as these would do more to conciliate the feelings
of the people of Ireland towards this country, than any acts
of that or the other House of Parliament. therefore
the part of himself and his constituents, most cordially thanked
the the people of this country for the high and charitable motives
which had induced them to come forward in the present emer-
gency and assist his unfortunate suffering country.—( Hear. )
Mr. LEFROY said, the Honourable Gentleman who
had just sat dawn, had introduced topics which at the
proper time, he should be quite ready to discuss ; but he
must be permitted to say, that they should, on that
occasion, confine themselves to the measures which had
been prepared for alleviating the distress which prevailed.
The Honourable Member who proposed that the Irish
poor-law should have precedence of all other measures,
must be ignorant of the extent of the sufferings of the Irish
people, or he could not be so cruel as to attempt to delay
measures that were prepared for alleviating them; while the
Hon. Member for Montrose had urged nothing in favour of
this delay, exeep t that the country ought to be saved the expense
of maintaining a Lord-Lieutenant. He cared not whether the
office were continued or not, but this he knew, that no Lord-
Lieutenant more deserved or commanded the confidence and
esteem of the Irish people than the distinguished nobleman
who at present filled the office. .With respect to the observa-
tions of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Member for
Bath, who had entered his protest against every measure
Government had proposed for alleviating the distress,
it appeared to him that the Honourable and Learned
Member's propositions were very becoming a gentle-
man entertaining republican principles, but exceedingly
unbecoming a gentleman who was a member of the British
Senate.—( Hear, hear.) With regard to the measures them-
selves, he certainly did hope that they were calculated to make
an important change in the condition of the people of Ireland.
In Committee he had no doubt many amendments would be
proposed, and he trusted Government would takee
care to give them a favourable consideration. He
was 'a decided opponent to Arms Acts and Coercion
Bills, but he must be, allowed to express a hope that measures
would be taken to protect the hard-working, industrious la-
bourer against the ruffian, who would commit assassination
upon Moos out of mop for his houestly acid faithfully dis-