The Sun.
London, England, 1824-05-08 00:00:00

BUDGET.

The CHANCELLOR of .the EXCHEQUER moved the
Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Commit_
tee of Ways and Means.

The motion was agreed to; as was one for referring the Ba-
lance Sheet laid on the table of the House, and other papers, to
the said Committee.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee,
HEQUER said he did
not The
know CHANCEL
for him to trouble the
thatitwoLuOldßboef
ntheecesEsaXrye
House at any great length in submitting to them those obser-
vations which it was his duty to make on the present occasion,
prefatory to the motion which he intended to put into the Chair-
man's hands, for a further grant of the 'Ways and Means for
the year. As the votes which he had now to propose were the
last which he should call for in the present Session, it became
his duty, in conformity with the pFactice which had long pre-
vailed, to take this opportunity of recapitulating to the Com-
mittee the sams which had already been voted in Supply, and
to explain to the House any farther measure which it might
be in the contemplation of Government to submit to Parlia-

ment.
The Supplies already voted by. the House
amounted to -
• d
Of which there had been appropriate—
For the Army -
The Navy -
The Ordnance -
`Miscellaneous Services
Exchequer Bills -

- £18,284,714

- 7,418,576

- 5,762,893
- 1,410,044
- 2,623,2(11
- -1,050,00 U

Total - £18,284,714
There had also been voted in Supply the sum of 30,000,0001.
for the purpose of paying off Exchequer Bills to a like amount,
which were outstanding in January, 1824. The whole slllll
however, which was required for this service was 34,031,000/.
There of course remained after the 30,000,000/. which he had
stated to be already voted, 4,031,0001. to be provided. Ile
would presently state how he proposed to deal with that charge.

He would now go over the votes which the House had already
sanctioned to meet the Supplies of the year.
They had granted in Annual Duties, Sugar Duties, anti Daties
on Foreign Spirits _ - £3,000,000
For Naval and Military Pensions -- 4,620,000
Payment from the East India Company, in con-
formity with tile arrangement made last year
on account of Half-pay and other charges for
Officers and Troops serving in the East Indies 50,000
There was also a small Surplus in the Ways and
Means for last year of 41,597
Official Salaries Iii:0°,000009
made under an Order: in Council in
which :le great Officers of State and
I.7it
inr2Tad2nh,
fortsiisn forconexttContributionrfPublicoibriun
tii
toyNniw'
wo rtahk s
fs
r o
m
other persons in official situations, transferred 10 per cent. on
the amount of their salaries to the public. That sum was so
contributed in imitation .of his Majesty, who had given up
30,0001. from the Civil List, and it had been arranged that it
should not go to the Consolidated Fund, but brought in aid of
the Ways and Means of each year. It was, therefore, unneces-
sary that it would be Noted, though he was free to take it as
an item in the Ways and Means. The several sums which he
had enumerated would be found to amount to 7,861,5971. He
then proposed to take 10,600,000/., as the surplus of the Con-
solidated Fund, after paying all charges on it, and-be would
no* state how this surplus arose in the present year. He had
estimated, at the commencement of the present Session, that
the revenue for 1824, would amount to - - .C 51,265,000
Adding to this a portion of the repayment of the
Austrian Loan, which cattle into this year 1,422,000
And Sums recovered from certain Public Ac-
countants - - 223,000

Gave a total of . - X 52,909,060
This sum, however, he did not take to the Consolidated Fund,
as 3,000,0001. were to be deducted from it which arose from
other sources than the regular supplies of the year 'He had,
however, as he had shewn, Ways and Means for the current
year, amounting to - - - - £52,909,000
But from these he proposed to deduct, for the pro-
bable falling off on account of Taxes repealed - 1,200,000

There would then remain - - . - • £51,709,000
The 1,200,0001. which he had proposed to deduct from the
first-mentioned sum, was made up partly of the expected
actual decline of revenue from taxes repealed, and partly of
repayments made on account of the Duties on Silk. He might
as well here take the opportunity of stating, the total amount
of the repayments on account of the Silk Duties. He be-
lieved that it would approach 500,000/. This certainly ex-
ceeded
what he had flattered himself would be the amount,
but it fell infinitely short of the enormous sum which:it had
been held out to them would be necessary, and so held out to
terrify them out of a measure, which, sound in principle, far
from realizing the evils which had been anticipated by some,
would, he was confident, produce that great and general be-
nefit which he and others who supported it had calculated
might be expected. It was a subject of just congratulation to
the House that a measure of that kind conflicting with so
many established opinions and interests, should have been
carried into effect as this had been. The individuals whO had
-in the first instance been alarmed at the proposition, had, in
their efforts to induce Parliament to reject it, conducted them-
selves in that way which had always distinguished their pro.
ceedings, and which entitled them to the kindest attention of
the House whenever aught which affected their interests might
be brought into discussion. It was highly satisfactory to know
that the change had been so quietly effected, and he begged, to
state it to be his opinion, that this might be regarded as the
triumph of truth over prejudice, on which those by whom it
had been achieved had a right to congratulate both the Par-
liament and the. Country. The 500,000/. repaid to effect this
object—those who wished to act on sound principles, as well
as talk of them (which almost every one was given to do),
_would consider to be money to be well laid out. It had the
effect of keeping the silk trade in a constant state of activity
in every part of the country, and had served to remove the
whn mirrht naterwise
the new measure. From the sum which he nzultwria
men-
tioned - £52,907,500
He would deduct for aids, not connected with the

regular supplies of the year, 3,000,0001., and for
deficiency of revenue and re-payments on ac-
count of the Silk Duties, 1,200,000/. ;in all -

4,200,000

And there would remain, on account of the Con-
solidated Fund
The expenditure for the present year he had esti-
mated at

- 48,707,500

33,057,650

Which left a surplus of nearly - 10,650,000
This by a resolution then in his hand he meant to take as the
surplus of the Consolidated Fund for the present year, and to
appropriate it as part of the Ways and Means for 1824. He
had stated that with respect to Exchequer Bills two grants of
15,000,000/. each, voted in Exchequer Bills had been made to
pay other Exchequer Bills which were outstanding at the com-
mencement of the present year. These, however, covered
but 30,000,000/., and the remaining -4,031,0001., or there-
abouts
was to be provided for. The way in which he would i
provide for these outstanding Exchequer Bills was to avail
himself of the growing produce of the Consolidated Fund.— 1
This would be attended with less expence than an issue of
Exchequer Bills in the usual way. Gentlemen conversant
with these subjects, knew that the charges on the Consoli-
dated Fund were not to be met till the end of the quarter.—
The money, received as the quarter proceeded, accumu-
lated, but without benefit to the country. An Act had passed
some years ago, but it was temporary in its character, which
went to allow Ministers to avail themselves of the growing
produce of the Consolidated Fund, provided the amount of
the same did not exceed 6,000,0001. From the arrangement
made with respect to the Sinking Fund, it had not been ne-
cessary to have recourse to the produce of the quarter ; but
still there it was, and if any saving by means of it could be
made, this ought to be done. Ile therefore submitted to the
House that it would be desirable to provide for the Exchequer
Bills of which he had spoken—the 4,031,0001. out of the grow-
ing produce of the Consolidated Fund. The effect of this
would be, to put one part of the debt against another—to pay
one set of bills by another set; but as the outstanding bills
would be paid by those of the next quarter, it was clear
that the interest on them would not be equal to a whole year's
interest on other bills. The same expence, therefore would
not be incurred by this course, which would fall on the
country in the ordinary way. He calculated that in this
way the charge in question might be met, leaving a small
surplus of about 155,000/. This was all that it was necessary
for him to state, with respect to the votes which he had to sub-
mit to the House. He had, by mistake, stated that 30,000,000/.
had been voted to cover d amount of Exchequer Bills out-
, standing at the commencement of 1824. This was not so. In
point of fact, only 15,000,000/. had as yet been voted. He had
the for the other 15,0001000/. then in his hand. It was
not necessary that he should go into any general observations on
the financial prospects or commercial relations of the country.
These were now well understood in the House and out of
doors ; they had been much discussed at an early period of the
Session, and it would therefore be a waste of time to trouble the
Committee with any thing of that nature. The observations
growing out of these would occur to every one, and could
gain no additional force from being uttered by him. His
Honourable Friend near him (Mr. Ilerries) had reminded him
of one subject to which it would be proper to call _the atten-
tion of the Committee; the plan which he had opened at the
'beginning of the Session, and which this House had enabled
him to carry into effect for the reduction of the Four per
Cents. lie had proposed that the holders of that Stock should
receive for every 100/. Four per Cents., 1001. in a Three and a
Half per Cent. Stock, with a pledge that the said Stock should
not be redeemed for five years. He had further proposed
that all those persons who would not receive the Three and
a Half per Cent. Stock for their Four per Cent., should be
paid off one-third of the amount of their stock on a given day.
The Treasury were to give six months notice of such an inten-
tion. He had not thought it prudent at the commencement
of the Session to propose paying off more than one-third of
the whole stock. If the assents had been very few, or if
there had been none, it might not have been easy to find
75,000,000/. to pay all off. Had two thirds assented, it might,
not have been very difficult to provide 25,000,000/. to pay oil*
the remaining third. But he had said, if a large proportion of
the, stockholders should agree to his preposition, it mighttheant
become necessary to give an additional notice of the
tithe
second
which the remainder should be paid entirely off.
notice had accordingly been given, and that operano
take place on the 10th of next October.. The eon.equence was,
s
that after that time all who had assented wouldAn receive Was to
per

cent. on their stock, and the remainder would be paid off. It •
might be satisfactory to the House to know that the assent;
amounted to 68,00,000/, of the Stock. This he thought fur-
nished a very satisfactory proof of the confidensc reposed in the
credit and good faith of the country.. He could not have ex-
pected that the dissents would be so few. To pay off these,
1,000,0001. would be required in October. It was true, that
persons who had not yet assented were not precluded from doing
so, and the ninnber might be further reduced, but he calcu-
lated that from 6 to 7,00,0001. would be wanted for that pure
pose. He would now describe the mode in which he wished
the holders'of that 7,090,0001: 4 per cent. stock to be paid off.
The most natural, easy, and obvious coprse seemed to be to
pay them. in Exchequer Bills, bearing a moderate interest (on
which he should say a word or two presently), in such a way as
would 'best suit the market. "The immediate effect of this
would be to'add 7,00000/. to the unfunded debt. Now if this
were to be left as a permanent addition, he should not think
the -plan would he considered a wise one. Though Exche-
quer • Bills were in great request as a floating and convenient
security, it was the ditty of Government to take care that
that floating debt was not too largely extended. Carried
to an excess, though the market might hear the issues very
well for a time, on any sudden emergency great difficulty might
be experienced from their not being kept within reasonable
bounds. He thought it desirable that the Four per Cents,
should be paid off in ExChequer Bills, but at the same time lie
was of opinion that it would-be expedient to provide for re-
deeming those Exchequer Bills, interest as well as principal.
within a moderate time. - He therefore proposed to charge both
principal and interest on the Sinking Fund. If this were the
whole of his proposition, it was clear that while the Sinking
Fund was' engaged in discharging these Exchequer Bills, it
could not be employed in the redemption of the funded debt.
Now, as they were bound to keep the Sinking Fund operating
on the funded .debt, he conceived the most reasonable course
would be, not to cancel the Four per Cents. as soon as they were
paid off, but to transfer them, with an interest of Three per Cent.,
to the Commissioners, es an additional quant ty of reduced debt
to remain in their hands. This done, when they had paid off
the amount of the Exchequer Bills, the Funded debt reduced
Would be no less • than would be redeemed, if the Sinking
Fund continued to be employed as it was by law at present.
—The rate at which he proposed that 'these Exchequer Bills,
both principal and interest, should be paid oft' by the Sink-
ing und, was that of 1;000,0001. per quarter, till the whole
should be discharged. It was clear that thus proceeding with
stock amounting to 7,000,000/. or thereabouts, seven quarters
must elapse before the whole would be gone through. By
some it might he thought that he proposed to pay them oft"
with less rapidity than was desirable. This, however, was
not the case. It ought to be recollected that it was impos-
sible for the whole of the Sinking Fund, which, at the com-
mencement of 11124, amounted to 5,134,4531., to be applied to
the redemption of the new Exchequer Bills. The Sinking
Fund was not only applicable to the debt, but there was a charge
fell on it for Life Annuities, which amounted in January last
to 519;000/. It was probable that purchases of Life Annuities
in place of stock might vary that charge by the end of the
year; but whether it should be more or whether it should be less
the whole of the Sinking Fund could not be applied to the dis-
charge of Exchequer Bills. It was liable to other demands.—
There were the Unclaimed Dividends for instance. When these
were taken for the public service the Sinking Fund was saddled
with the duty of answering the demand of any claimant
who might come forward. No large sum was likely to he
called for in this way, but a portion of the Sinkine. Fund must
be reserved to meet such applications. Under all these cir-
cumstances, lie therefore thought that 1,0110,000/. a quarter was
as large a sum as it would be expedient thus to apply. There
was another matter relative to the interest on Exchequer Bills,
on which lie had now to address the Committee. In the course
of the present Session, various questions had been put to him,
as to what he intended with respect to the interest on Exchequer
Bills. The Hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Baring) had
spoken very strongly on this subject, and had been of opinion
that while they proceeded to reduce the Four. per Cents. they
ought to reduce the interests on Exchequer Bills. He (Mr.
_i_Barimea-ilsetughtethie_would rather tempt the public to take the
terms Government offered, which they might not do if they had
the means of using their money which Exchequer Bills afforded.
He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had however not approved
of this course.—He had not thought it wise, and he must confess
that to him it had not appeared very fair. Had it been done, and
they had found themselves unable to pay off all the dissentients,
it might have been deemed expedient to make such issues of
Exchequer Bill's as would ultimately have re'idered it neces-
sary to raise the rate of interest on them again, for ". could
hardly have be: expected that the market could abscise) ' sues
of such magnitude as must have taken place in the case suppos.
ed. First to reduce the interest and then to raise it again would
not seem fair to those who assented to his proposition, and they
might say, " had we known such would have been the case, our
assent should never have been given :" and it would seem as if
the interest had been lowered to compel their acquies-
cence, and afterwards raised when the purpose had been an-
swered. But at the same time that lie felt this, it was impos-
sible for Ministers not to turn their attention to the market for
Exchequer Bills. When they saw that they bore a premium
he believed of no less than ns., it was clear that with
such a demand for them, things could not be allowed to do-
on long. He had certainly contemplated that a time would
come when it would be the duty of the Government to see if
they could not save the country a part of the expence occa-
sioned by Exchequer Bills. That time he considered now to
have arrived—(lieer !)---He proposed to diminish the number
of Exchequer Bills by the plan which he had described for
meeting the 4,000,000/. now outstanding. Such being the case,
he conceived the market could bear a reduction of the in-
terest. He would move, therefore, that the next issue of Ex-
chequer Bills should be at a lower rate of interest. At present
the interest was two-pence per day. He had every reason to
flatter himself- that in the present state of our commercial'
relations, and of the country generally, the market could bear
a reduction of one halfpenny per day. This measure in the
present year would produce no reduction of expense, for
the same interest as heretofore would continue to be paid
on the bills already in circulation. The expellee of the last
issues would be the same as usual, but in the course of next,
year a saving would accrue if the market could bear that
reduction which some thought it could. If the reduction
of a half-penny per day could be borne there would be a
saving of abOtit. 220,0001." on 30,000,0001. in Exchequer
bills. This would be in addition to the other saving which
he had stated would arise irom the proposed transfer of the
4,000,0001. in outstanding Exchequer bills to the Consolidated
Fund. The sum in consequence of _these arrangements which
he should next year have to call for in supply for the interest
of Exchequer Bills, instead of being 1,000,0001. as he had esti,
mated at the opening of the present Session, would be miner
that sum by no less titan from two to 300,40/. He did not
know that he had any thing more to state. lie had explained
to the Committee the view which he took of the revenue, and
expenditure of. the country. He had described the resources
which were at their command, and also the manner in which he
proposed to provide for the Exchequer Bills,. and for the pay-
ment of the holders of 4 per Cent. Stock who lied dissented
from his propositions. It did not occur to him that he
hail atiy
t
move
ofi
bnvrgen tti
hoa ttodndt
h;
we butislenihh he
f mights hlo:obdooe
,b_orepe_7hoiva..pi
should
.0 tl oi furnish niigiar
as artieroi
ay.;
1.1:1 further

coincided with what the
, ,
hoped these measuresn
chequer Bills for the service of 1824. •
Sir H. PARNELL said, that there were some parts of the
statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman, wjtli. which h
-e could
not, and some with which he could agree.. With respect to the
rGeogvulerantimonesntonha were as yet at the outset at their
measures, and the advantage
_l!ad
,??.? yet beconie apparent.;
but he was certain it soon would. rile same might be said i
That had never been done, and
reference to thetdhdeiditoSYnile:
would not be regarded as iMarle _ ircumstarices might occur to-
require a change in ther;hae , atter. The case of the Timber
Laws was in point "
a (ssedra.)—f A very i
.mperfect Act relat-
ing to timber had passed
few years ago, on the under-
standing that it was either.
TwTroahoelel
ley. I lei 1:
to be repealed or modified 'as cir-
cumstancesthe country was annually losing ver
Y considerable sums of
inconsequence.-.(Hear!) --Th
money ere was another point of
great importance-the public debt. T •
his would not be
reduced
by what was called the Sinking Fund-
of o 000 0001 Not only
was the amount overrated, for it ' ' .
did not exceed 4,000,0004
but A wrong name was given to '
sur-
plus or reserved fund.
The
lt. It should be calied_ a
another war, this fund wouldno9ment we should. be engaged in
Ministers. He was d • be,...seized and appropriated' by
estrous .of suggesting a real Sinking Fund
on the principles of the Long Annuities. It was not the first
time he had made such a proposition, and last year it had re-
ceived the support of his lamented Friend, Mr. Ricardo, as
well as the general approbation of well-informed persons out of
doors. It would be, in his
wou

3,klticing the National Debt; at any rate a beginning. might
De made on a small scale. if there was a general disposition in
the country to see part of the perpetual Annuities transferred to
Long Annuities, it was the duty of Government to meet that
disposition in a candid and liberal way. He merely threw out
tte hint for the attention of Ministers.
Mr. HUME was confident that those measures which had
been proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman for the regulation
of our trade by removing injurious restrictions, would do much
good. He wished the same principle to be acted upon with
regard to the Timber Trade. With regard to the Dead Weight
Lean he thought a practical lesson had been taught to Mini-
sters. They had borrowed 11,000,0001. on account of the
Pensions when Consols were at 73, which they had since had
to pay at 78, 80, and 96. The difference in every hundred
which they paid was that between 73 and 96. Before the
whole transaction should be concluded, the total loss would
be- not less than 6,000,000/. sterling. He (Mr. Hume) ob.
jected to the principle of a Sinking Fund on Mr. Pitt's plan,
which he contended never did, and never could save the
country a single farthieg. He objected to the plan of the
Right Hon. Gentleman for carrying the 7,000,0001. wanted to
pay off the holders of the Four per Cent. Stock to the Sinking
Fund. This was making that a complex operation, which
.night,sind which ought to be exceedingly simple. The Right
Honourable Gentleman had put down the nominal Sinking
Fund once kept up : yet here he proposed to do, in a small
degree, the very thins which he objected to then.—He thought
the vote for the building of churches was the most objec-
tionable one that had ever been proposed to the House. Ile
bad never met any man out of that House, either belonging
to it or not, who did not condemn it. He trusted there would
be opportunities for discussing the question, and he should
give it every opposition in his power. With regard to the
Bank affairs, the Hon. Member recommended that the Go-
vernment should not renew the exclusive privileges now en-
joyed by that hotly. If Banks were allowed to be established
upon the principle of the 1/40otch Banks, an immense advantage
would be given to the increase of capital, and to the security
of property. He maintained that the Sinking Fund was an
entire fallacy. If the floating debt were placed upon a proper
footing, no surplus would be wanting. In any emergency that
could arise the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be always
able to meet any immediate demands by means of Exche-
quer Bills. In the. creation of the debt the greatest evil had
been that of borrOwing upOn interminable annuities. Annui-
ties extending beyond sioty_years could always be obtained at
much the same rate as , papetual ones. The Chancellor of the
Exchequer ought to take advantage of the present exuberance
of capital and low rate of interest, by issuing Annuities ter-
minable in the course of 30, 40, or 50 years, and then to keep
in hand a sufficient surplus to provide for the interest upon them.
By such a plan a very large portion of the capital debt might be
removed.

Mr. ROBERTSON expressed his earnest hope that the
Chancellor of the Exchequer would go on in his straight for-
ward course, and maintain the-Sinking Fund, which was the
support of the credit of the country. The manufacturing and
agricultural interest had already suffered enough ; and if the
present state of affairs were not advantageous to the funded in-
terest, he trusted that others would not be sacrificed to the most
pernicious system that ever was engrafted on any country in
the world.

Mr. WHITMORE took this opportunity to state his opi-
nion upon the subject of the regulations relating to Wool. He
deeply regretted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
been induced to depart from his original intention as to the rate
of duties, and hoped, when the proper time arrived, that the
Country Gentlemen would be found to rally round those who
proposed to establish a fair equality of duties. It would
be recollected that he, from the first, objected to Returns
being made of the duties on stock on hand. Ile now called the
attention of the House to the amount of those allowances, as a
warning to them not to give way to any clamours which might
be raised upon similar future occasions. He was one of those
who believed in the advantage of maintaining a Sinking Fund.
But he agreed with the Hon. Member for Aberdeen, that the
real amount of surplus was no more than 3,000,0001.; and for
the preservation of that amount he voted, and no more. He
really did hope that Government would get rid of that most de-
lusive measure relating to the dead weight. He believed that
it was scoffed at and derided by every man was spoke of it, and
be trusted that 3linisters would abandon that which was the
grossest delusion ever practised upon the public.
The Resolutions were then agreed to, and the Report ordered
to be received on Monday.