The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-20 00:00:00

CUSTOM DUTIES.

MARINE MUTINY BILL.
This Bill went through (4,iFimittee, and the report was
ordered to be brought up to-morrow (this day).
Several Bills were advanced a stage, and their Lord-
ships adjourned.

The Earl of EGLINTON moved for certain re-
turns connected with the Custom Duties, which were
agreed to.
CASE OF CATHERINE FOSTER.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH said he wished to
direct the attention of the Government to the execu-
tion of an unfortunate woman on Saturday last, at
Bury St. Edmunds. It appeared from the newspapers
that upwards of 10,000 persons were present. The
execution was conducted in such a manner as to pro-.
long the sufferings of the unfortunate creature for a
considerable space of time ; and the assemblage of per-
sons were so struck and horrified at the circumstance,
that they called out shame, shame, murder, murder'.
He was one of those persons who unfortunately thought
that this mode of punishing crime ought to be conti-
nued, but still he thought the sufferings of the unfortu-
nate beings who came to those untimely ends should not
be protracted by the carelessness or brutality of the exe-
cutioner. A short time ago a similar case to this oc-
curred, and on its being brought under the attention of
the Right lion. Baronet the Secretary of State for the
Home Department, a promise was given that the matter
should be looked into, and measures taken to prevent a
recurrence of such a proceeding. Many years ago he
was quartered in the town of Sligo when an unfortunate
man was brought out for execution. The drop being
exceedingly high, the rope broke, and the manin
fell into the street, breaking bp g
ththate slate he
fracturing several of his ribs, and
occurred in the
was carried up again, and the sethitaeyrniecnteglnof the law exe-
cuted upon him. A similar casee
proper
occasion very heart of the kin
gdoanills hupetnhouttigehtGitowrearsnarn
occasion upon which toc
take steps to prevent aA. recurrence of such scenes.
NS.DOWNE said Government
The Marquis L
to be made into the cir-
would cause a careful inquiry
H„ agreed, with his Noble Friend that,
cumstsTcwe:.
s nec4-segry to continue this mode of punish-
lit ought to be carried out with all due solemnity
while it
and caution.
The subject then dropped.
MUTINY BILL.

This Bill went throagh Committee, and the report
was ordered to be brought up to-morrow (this day).

given aotticet to the Noble Lord at the head of the Go-
vernment. It is of some importance. and may materially
' effect the discussion of this measure. The questionl
hare to put to the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern-
ment,_.s
and of which I have sent him a copy, is to this
HO effect:—l may first state that there is a rumour prev:i;
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four 0 clock. made between the Governeneet and the Wesley ail Corns
GLASGOW, PAISLEY. AND GREENOCK • for aside the pPo'itiun
mittees, the purpose of setting
RAILWAY.
Mr. HASTIE presented six petitions against the for the G , ' h feducation' I thin
which is intended to be made by the Wesleyans to thek
grant et% rnment sc eme of
Glasgow, Pa stet, and Greenock Railway.
read a,
PRIVATE BUSINESS, that the best mode in which Ivan bring the question bsfore
Mr. GEEENE moved that this house will not re- the House,
I * h ' to this
ceive a petition against a railway Bill after Monday the e ,per stietei,sroitr;by the Wesleyans, and a tic Is '
el it. Oa :C..,Unt of an important commuoicatien from
statement which appears in
.a
3d day of May next, unless the petitioners shall coin-
plain of any matter which may have arisen durin tee high sources exeressing a desire, without any solicit,t
g
Lion on our Pert, to enter into a negetretion with progress of the Bill before the Committee on the Bill. regard to this scheme, we have kelt: d it ex-
That, from and after the said 3d day of May next, the .elient to direct a Committee,scheme,
in order that no whams Committee of Classification be empowered to refer to the ,},,,standingitaket
may place on stele to Chairman of the Committee of Ways and Means, toge- a communication with the Government with regard to
ther with the Members ordered to prepare and bring in the objections felt by the Wesleyans to the Minutes of
the Bill, such unopposed Bills as they shall deem it de-strong
(;,,until, and oil which we have stated, in
sirahle so to refer.—Agreed to,
them•
bat respectful language, our aversion to , , Dr. BOIVIt ENG presented a petition against the Bills An „theiet r , placing
eptt has been received,
of the Great Northern Railway Company,eiber,
the present measure in a new light altog ~.
REPORTS.
and which, we are hound to say, removes t"
The reports on the following Rills were considered
a, great degree se rne of the most grave and insuperable
and agreed to, and the Bills ordered to be engrossed:— ehjections which, as consistent Wesleyans, the Commit;
Derwen *Waterworks and Reservoirs Bill. te' s have urged. Now the statement made is this, and
Newhaven harbour, Ouse Lower Navigation, and Lewes I wish to tali the attention of the Noble Lord and the
and Latighton Drainage.
; t Ouse to it. Official but private overtures have been
Newmarket and Cheeterford Railway (Extension to made to the Wesleyans in London, offering these
Thetford).
concessions—first, that the Government exhibition
Newmarket and Chesterforl Railway (Extension to shall be made only to schools which use the
Bury St. Edmund's. with a Branch to Ely). authorised version of the Scriptures; next that the
HOLYHEAD HARBOUR. Wesleyans be permitted to use their own catechisms!
Mr. WARD moved that the order, that Viscount in schools devoted to the use of the Wesleyans, and that
Morpeth, Mr. Ward, and Mr. Owen Stanley be Mem- the instructors should be of the Wesleyan persuasion*
lairs of the Select Committee on the Holyhead Har The question I have to put to the Government ie thiet_
hour Bill, be discharged. He made the motion first, whether this negotiation has been made to I p.'
at the request of the Noble Lord the Member Wesleyans by Government, or any person authorised ly.
for Liverpool, who was of opinion that the appoint- the Government, and it such concessions are to °_`'
meat of the Committee ought to be delayed until made, whether the Roman Catholics are to have the like
the report of the Commissioners, appointed to consider privilege?
the subject, was before the House. He should lay that Lord JOHN RUSSELL said—l must iay, 'ln the
oth
report on the table either to-morrow or next day. first place, in answer to the question of the R , e
The motion was agreed to. Member, that the communication with the Wesleyan
LONDON, OXFORD, AND CHELTENHAM body was, as far as I know, not begun by any
'torso
RAILWAY. authorised on the Government. A Noble
Mr. of the
—_
Mr. C. BERKELEY moved that the petition of the Friend of mice,
whose name (although I have Ito
inhabitants of Cheltenham, in favour of the London, authority to mention it) I may state
to the Hell
Oxford, and Cheltenham Railway, and against the Chel- —I mean Lord Ashley—understood
from sense 0
tenham and Oxford Railway Bill, be referred to the the .Weslayan body that they were about to enter inW
Committee on the Bill.—Agreed to. resolutions describing the character of the minute!
FEES ON PRIVATE BILLS. in a way which was thought by him not aPPII- The SPEAKER said he had to acquaint the House, cable to them. He told them that they had better
asst
that in accordance with the resolution of the House, he until he should communicate with Lord Lansdowne en
had caused a list of fees payable on private bills to be the subject, and thus through the secretary of the con
-
prepared.
mittee of council get an explanation on the sub' NEWMARKET AND CHESTERFORD RAILWAY ject. The secretary of the committee came to Lore
BILL. Lansdowne and m ;self, and asked our intentions.
This Bill, repealing the provision authorising the on the subject, we said that we should have no hesitati°ll,
company to use the line of the Eastern Counties Rail• in answering any questions which the Wesleyans
m:gbt
way, was read a third time and passed. choose to put, and which might lead to a correct explas
GOVERNMENT SCHEME OF EDUCATION. nation on the subject. Ido not know that any blame
Mr. P. HOWARD presented two petitions from Car- can be attached to us inconsequence.—(Loud cheering.)
lisle against the Government scheme of education. The first question was, whether any person, holding
Mr.
land to the HASeI'IE p
eff resented several petitions from Scot- ecclesiastical functions would be eligible to fiil the
same ect.
office of pupil teachers, and the answer we made
Mr. THORNELY presented petitions from Devon- was, that they would not be eligible as pupil teachers•
shire and North Wales to the same effect —(Loud cheers.) The next question was, whether
the •
Mr. W. PATTEN presented several petitions in favour authorised version of the Scriptures would be used in
of the scheme, and two against it. schools ? On this subject, the resolution of the Com-
Mr. R. CURRIE presented a petition from North- mit:a, dated the 3d Decsniber, 1839, in which reference
amptonshire against the Government educational scheme. was made to a previous resolueen, said that the condi-
Mr. BAILEY presented petitions to the same effect* tion on which they would give assistance to schools
Mr. WILLIAMS presented two petitions to the same would be that a daily
portion of the Scrir
effect. The Hon. Member also presented a petition tures should form a pertion of the usual exercis!, .
from a person named Williams, complaining that the to the classes. The words " the daily reading of a Pe`e ' Irish Board of Works were guilty of jobbing practices tion of the Scriptures," was understood to mean the
in connexion with their functions. authorised version of the Scriptures, and in the ssme
Mr. DUNCAN presented several petitions from Scot- report of 1839, it was stated that the intention of the
land against the Government Scheme of Education. Committee with respect to the children 14 Roman
Petitions were also presented against the measure by' Catholics was that the Dome).- version of the Bible should
Mr. Redhead Yorke, Mr. Protheroe, Mr. Huntley, be allowed. The next
question was, whether the in-
Mr. Brotherton, Lord C. Fitzroy, Mr. Greene, by specters of the Wesleyan schoel might b. appointed not a_
Mr. Walker, Mr. Gishorne upwards of 20 petitions, Mr. from the Wesleyan body, but with tneic
concurrence ?
Godson, and Mr. Sharman Crawford, 26 petitions from The Hon. Gentleman stated that they had hitherto re-
Wesleyans and others from Rochdale. 0
calved assistance through the British and I'ore4_
Mr. HINDLEY alto presented 700 petitions from School Society, and they said that it would be far more
various places.
agreeable to their feelings and the constitution
Petitions in favour of the measure were presented by of their Society if the Committee on educa..
Mr. Seymer, Mr. Finch, Mr. Greene, Mr. Ainsworth, tion would recognise the Wesle ''.
yan body directly
Mr. Hudson, from Sunderland ; Dr. Bowring, Mr. I admit that, according to that arrangement, they were
Stewart, Mr. Beckett, Mr. Brooke, and Lord H. Vane, not parties which, according to the minute., were
Mr. MILES presented several petitions from places in entitled to assistance from the grant. With re-
Somersetshire in favour of the scheme. Bard to the exclusion of the Roman COl°lies
_
Mr. G. BERKELEY presented petitions from Glou- frorn the
grant, it was no new questiout -
cestershire against the Government plan. a I do
Ever since 1839 such has been the policies, an
Mr. ROEBUCK presented two petitions from Bath not know ot any_
grant s. having been made to Row
against the scheme.
Catholic schools exclusively as such. The question is,
Mr. E. DENISON presented one in favour and elle therefore left as I I) e 11,- far as Roman Catholics are
it ( r .
came to
against ; as also did Mr. HA YTER.
concerned. When the Romtsit Catholic B 1)
the
Go- •
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said he had frem 300 to 400 the Government and atilt for assistancesi fromive attt ntion
petitions to present from various parts of the country verninstit grant it will be time enough , g
against the scheme—four or five of which, were to the matter. At present there was considerablelß-
(F I
peculiarly deserving the attention of the House, as tufty in tweaking such a grant ont
account of many
they were of a different character to the generality of of the teachers in Roman Catholic
schools being in holy .
them. One was agreed to at a public meeting of the orders, and might be suppose dto use their functions as
inhabitants of Meidstotie, objecting to the scheme as tetchers to proselytize their pupils. With regard to the
,it %ill
unconstitutional; another agreed to at a public meeting, grant for the present
fore.
held on Saturday last, at Remseate, dspreeating the as the last. viz., 100.000/.. anti it will he aprlied as before'
House proceeding to decide on the scheme with haste, GOVERNMEN I PLAN OF EDUCATION.
and in favour et his (Mr. Duncembees) motion for a Lerd JOHN RUSSELL then proceeded to the order
Select Committee of Inquiry; from the committee of a of the day. He said—Sir, I will now proceed to
society calling itself " The Central Cernmittee of Na- propose to read the order of the day with
tional Associated Trades, and for the Protection of In- the view of proposing in Committee a resolu-
dustry;" and another signed by 7,000 members of an tion for education. In doing so, the House, I
association, calling itself " The Association of Young trust, will bear with me, and give me its indulgence,
Men of the City of London, who were while I endeavour to clear away some of the exaggera-
also members •of various mechanics institutes, :
non with which it has been accompanied.--(Hear,
against the scheme and in favour of an inquiry ; hear.) And in connexion with which Honour-
also a petition from thirteen of the clergymen of the able Members have been misrepresented and
diocese of York, who stated that it appear, d from the attacked in no ordinary manner, and called to give Sc.
Minutes of the Council of E lucetion that certain pro. coma of their conduct at public meetings and elsewheee•
positions were in some measure founded on the It is done by those who say they come to protest against_
representation of the Protestant clergy, while there an irresponsible power, it is done by those who endeavour
was no authority to show that the Protestant divines to show that the body who will have the management ;
as a body were in favour of the plan. this grant is unconstitutional, and that the grant made_
Mr. I)ENISON presented a petition from Surrey in from year to year—made by this House—placed in the •
favour of the Government scheme of education. hands of the Ministers of the Crown, renewable at the
Lord ARUNDEL presented several petitions from pleasure of the Sovereign, and who cannot hold °lth ,
this 11011se,
Sunday-school teachers against the scheme. any longer than they have the support of
Mr. M. GIBSON also presented several petitions to that such a mode of devoting money to the educatT:
the same effect. of the people was an unconstitutional mode.
Mr. M. MILNES presented a petition in favour of. of proceeding. Why, Sir, talk of responsibility_
bold
Mr. HOLLAND presented a petition against, how much more must we be responsible, h_
Lord DUNCAN presented 10 petitions from Bath ing this power upon such a tenure, than thesis
against.
who assemble together from various parts of the coon"
Alderman HUMPFIERY presented a petition against. try, not responsible to any persons, and who have told
such
Col. SIB THORP presented a petition against. Hon. Members of thiS House that they will raise so
Sir G. BANKES presented a petition against, oosition at a future election, that the shall no longer
i
Sir J. Y. BULLER presented several petitions against. have the honour of a seat in that House if they decide
the
Colonel T. WOOD presented several petitions against. according to their free and impartial judgment tirusir.
Mr. PUSEY presented several petitions in favour of' questions now to be brought before you. I trust,
hie licuse4
the Government plot.
entirely to the judgment and impartiality of t ts at Lord MORPE PH presented 124 petitions from various and teat they will not allow that these attelnp
places in the West Ridine, of York.hire against the exaggeration and misrepresentation shall hide from the!?
Sir it
scheme of' the Goternment.—(Hear, hear.) t rea fact* of
.—(llear, h ear
Mr. P. BOR'I'HWICK presented a petition in its is e l
well known that file case
education of the people
• ny—forms no
favour.
—of the working class's evecta
nationally'
'
Sir R. PEEL presented three petitions from places in part of the duty, tither of the Government, or,,,.ewhole
tre • 411
Lancashire against the Government scheme. speakiiig, of the Church of this c'tin
years' to voluti-
Mr. WAKLEY presented several petitions to the same task of education has been len, of late •
of the
Mr. a Person
effect. tary efforts. It the year
Mr. VERNON SMITH presented petitions from name of Raikes first started subscriptions for
Northampton against the Government scheme of the purpose of establishing Sunday schools, and
diffasing great amount of
. .
education.
was the means of'
e'nof
Mr. CHRISTIE presented similar petitions from education
among the younger por i , the commutate •
century, when Me. Lancaster
Weymeuth and other places.
In the be inning of this , ,
Sir GEORGE GREY presented similar petitions ; came to this country, it was entirety by the efforts of in-
also petitions from the Free Church Presbytery of dividuals that the British and Foreign School
Glasgow and Ayr in favour of the measure, The Right Society was established, altogether unaided by eV
Hon. Baronet proceeded, amidst the utmost confusion, assistance from the funds of the Government.
to state the prayer of the petitions, and in an a 010- So likewise when these schools were succeeded by the
getic tone added that he had been specially P
requested
to do so.— (Laughter,)
the clergy took a great part in the establishment of these
Mr. COMPI'ON presented petitions in favour of the schools, it was done entirely by the money of the itidi-
Bill.
viduals among the clergy arid the laity ; and
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN presented petitions from was in no way countenancee by the State. In the year
22 parishes in Norhamptenshire against the Bill. 1831, I think a vote was proposed in this House, of a
Captain GLADSTONE presented similar petitions. very limited amount, as it die: not exceed 20,0001., for the
Mr. PAT:II:sax presented petitions to the same purposes of aiding in the education of the working
effset. classes. That sum was }:laced under the direction of
Mr. LABOUCTIERE presented petitions in favour the Treasury, and was stated to be intended for this
Society,
of the measure. purpose. I have mentioned the National
Mr. AGLIONBY presented petitions against the which Church
was composed of members of the , n
measure. of En I
gtand, and by the British and Foreign
Lord GR..iNVILLE SOMERSET presented petitions School Society, which had no other rule than this—
to
the same effect. have the Scriptures read daily in the schools connectedhurch-
Petitions against the measure were also pre,erled by with that society, which was constituttd, not of C .
Mr. Barclay, by Mr. Sotheron, by Mr. Aldan; by the me-n only, but of Churchmen and Protest
ant Dissen-
till
Chancellor of the Exchequer, by Mr. B. Escort, and by ters. Sir, the matter continued in this shape
sed to form a Mr. Barker.
1819 when it was propo.
t the sums which
Cons-
Lord JOHN RUSSELL presented 513 petitions in - ' of the COUnCii ;ranand tha
, /settee
,d by the Treasury
favour of the measure (fourteen from the Chancellor of had hitherto been gt 4. .
educational societies, shouldhenceforth
the Exchequer).
to the differe_nt
of the Council, and that that
Several petitions were presented also in favour tai. the pass
through the Committeeh Co 1
measure by Mr. Aldam, trim Leeds, Sir H. Inglis, Mr. I Llommitee instead of t e wholeTunct , who being a
Barclay, and Lord In wire„ I a large 1)0.4, like theform
reasary,.was occupied with
Sir DE LACY EVANS presented petitions from I other concerns, ahould. a cl>mtnittee of Conseil, and
grants that that committee, y .
0 the direction of her Majesty,
several in Westminster against ell State
of I should have its attention expressly devoted to
for educational purposes ; and against the
eCommittee
this particular subject. The Lord President of the Privy Council.—(A laugh.)
the Coutiel was placed at the head of that
Lord M. HILL presented a petition against.
Committee, and he has taken the charge at all
r. PARKER Mr. KEMBLE three in favour.
one from Clapham, signed by the titres;
nt
es; whether under the then Governme, the late
The
Government, or under the present Government.
Archdeacen of Surrey, in favour.
different dissent-- the Lord President of' the C > taken
Mr. BROTHERTON petitions front
laces. ageinst- the charge of this mater,' i. uncil has at all timesu of
anti of the distribution the
ing congregation,: in Selford, and other PCO.ANIES. }ands forhem brought
BOARD OF CONTROL.—GAS . .
CONTROL.- GAS to give notice that - 1 •
before the C .1 I
mutate rom time to time h regu.ationts
Mr. HUME said that he desired
move that as the such
be useful.
Thursday the adoption of' which, he thought, would be he would to-morrow or on
had been v-sted in Si .the first in-
of India r, the appointment of that Committee in
Government conduct of the Board
in the
the India Directors, the
z cognizance of certain stance gate rise to great differences of opinions
ss,
of Control in taledis',4eachable.—(Laughter.) He country, and a very protracted amid vehement di cn
rethil..
matters was illegal
and
a statement of the rate at which took place in this House on the subject. The A
~n_..
would also move that
furnished the public with bishop of Canterbury, in the other House of PIFIni
companies had
gas meet, protested against the formation of that Committee,
all gas
should be laid upon the table,
not
last ten years
for theRENCY—VI `'
C TOWNES. and against any scheme of education .hich was _ DECIMAL CUR
, brought by Boil before Parliament. It was evident the
Dr. BOWRING would move on to morrow (this day) of Council
an address to her Majetty, that she would authorise a seine time the endeavours of the Committeedecimal system of currency, and that a coin of the value on the one hand. sod that of the church on the other,
)1.
opinion
of two shillings should be issued, being one tenth part were much we alc, ned by these differences
successful as they
of a pound, to be called a " Victorine.' —(Laughter.) and therefOre the results were not so The ques-
TIIE POOR- LAW. would have been it' they had not prevailed.
that the
Mr. FERRAND said that he would wish to ask h non was in this shape when it was
proposedh tile should
Noble Lord the First Minister of the Crown a .t e 1 inspectors who should visit the national se
concurrence of the •of which he had given notice : he desired that clquestion' ; be appointed by the Council, with the
0_
f Canter
bring
name a day on which it wile his intent' Archbishop of Canterbury, in the province .
•hop of
on to . I the Archive
bring forward the question of the new bury; and with the concurrence o
ro-
per-lee If h
• tee York, in the province of York. That these should
Noble Lord was unprepared to do thit, h
should COll- ' Council generally, as to the sider it his duty to bring she sub' - d
report as ;
the House. ject utter the notice of ' secular education, anti that tiny should
instruction according
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that • to the nature of religious
..
that
it was his inter- e
to the liturgy of the Church of .It neland, and
lion to bring forward that '
be sent—
question on Thursday next, duplicates of these reports should also or on to-merrow (this day) week. their concur-
to the Archbi•hops: that if they withheld
were -
GOVERN NI ENT EDUCATION SCHENlFappointment of that inspector or . ..e. .
Sir BENJ. HALL said_ f r ' ' " h ream from the
he considered the conticieetiOtte-7 e o e we proceed distatistied with. what. _ .
to „wadi ant She. -
order of the day, I alai put a question, of which I have discharge .of his datzeso-Isis ap

•
el
4

c • ti
Yh '
t

.: a.

aided and encouraged by the proposal is such as
could lead to the gibbet. (Hear, hear, hear, and
cheers.) Another course has been taken in oppo-
sition to this measure, by a gentleman whom I
regret to see opposed to the plan before
the House. The amount of that gentleman's
argument is this—that there is a certain
class of peop'e in this country which is found in con-
nexion with vice and crime, with ignorance and brutal
sensuality; and in that condition the people must be left.
For them no means of education are to be provided
Imprisonmsiit, transportation, and the gallows are for
them, but none of the milder means of religion or know-
ledge. Sir, Ire ver can consent to such a ins position as
this. lam not disposed to entertain extravagant opi
nions upon the subject, nor do I suppose th tt vice will
be effectually overcome, but still I trust that the number
way be diminished, and that not only the path of duty.
but the path of worldly advantage, point to education ;
and I hope that by this means many may be rescued
from the hands of crime and misery, and we should
then have the happiness of saying that we had performed
the duty incumbent upon us, and we can with better
conscience and mere satisfaction to ourselves, say
to the criminal that the punishment which the laws
inflicted upon him we had endeavoured to avert
as far as in us lay, and that we would have led you to
the paths of virtue, and it is not by our law that
you have come to this disgrace and punishment.—
(Cheers.) 'With respect to some objections urged
against the particular plan before the House, I cannot
help saying, that I think there is. considerable force in
them; but still, although the measure is not exactly
what we might wish, still it must be borne in mind that
we had to deal with a great number of existing schools,
which already occupied the ground ; and which,
according to their own system, ought to impart educa-
tion in the way that seemed to them-the most likely to
produce the desired result. I must confess that I think
the measure would have been better had it pro
meted a more general system of education, and
one in which both the children of the members
of the Church and those of Dissenters might have joined.
The first of these in point of numbers and amount is the
National Society, in connexion with the Church of Eng-
land. There are more than 900.000 day scholars in
their schools, and the amount of their funds is very large.
The rule in all these schools is, that the liturgy and the
catechism shall be taught, and there is likewise a neces-
sity that all th. children shall go to the Established
Church on Sunday. They have now relaxed with re-
gard to the rule, and leave it to the managers of the
schools. But we had to consider, in 1839, whether we
ought to have attempted to spread over the country one
general system of education, and one that did not agree
with the British and Foreign School Society and the
Dissenters. It would have been very unwise to have
made such an attempt in 1839 as now, and Ido not think
that the prejudice which existed against it would act
otherwise than to create division, and eventually failure.
We said that in 1839, with regard to the Church schools,
they were to act according to their own views, and that we
would not interfere with religious instruction in any
other way than that the Church inspectors appointed by
the Privy Council should visit the schools and report as
to the kind and di gree of education given. With respect
to the other schools, we stated that we would not inter-
fere with respect to the ri ligious instruction given in
hem, but with regard to the secular part of the instruc-
tion—that the inspectors should report upon it and upon
the state of the schools and their effiiiency. Now, Sir,
the rule adopted in 1839 with respect to the building of
schools, and adopted now with respect to the educa-
tion of the pupil teachers anal stipendiary monitors in
Church schools, is. that there shall be on exami
nation of the pupils in the Church catechism and
the liturgy, but: in scheels not. connected with the church
of England no examination of that kind is to take place
except as to the secular branches of learning. We con-
fine our examination to the secular branches of learn-
inn. It seems to me exceedingly strange that there are
many persons who agree with me that education ought
to receive some assistance from the State by a grant of
public money—agreeing with me that it is not sufficient
that voluntary efforts should be matle—agieeing with me
that the state of crime calls for some effort on the part
of the Government—and yet say that these rules con-
tain such a violation of the liberty of conscience, that
they cannot assist or even partake of any grant, pro-
ceeding trim such a source. Yet these are the same parties
who in 1839 consented that schools should be built from
public money in the proportion of 18s. 6d. to the peund, and
t hat in the schools the liturgy and catechism of the Church
of England should be used I own that I cannot under
stand the nice distinction which these persens make on
this occasion; for be it observed it is not a
a questicn in which the Church of England arrogates to
itstef the power of superintending the instruction or the
people. All that the Church of England asks is this,
that in her schools—schools raised by the Church of
England, and built by members of her communion, that
her liturgy and catechism should be taught. It seems
to me to be a scheme not of a compulsory nature, but
one in perfect accordance with religious liberty, and
with which Dissenters ought to he satisfied. ll', indeed,
the Church subscribed a much larger amount than the
Dissenters, then of course they would be entitled to a
larger share of public grant. But that was not a differ •
ence in principle, but one which arose from its prac-
tical operation. Ido not, therefore, see why the Dis-
senters should refuse to acquiesce in this grant in con-
sequence of part of the money going to the
schools of the Church of England. This is
not the whole of State education. It is only
in aid of voluntary effort.—(Hear, hear.) We
take the schools exactly where they are situated. We
find the schools existing in the respective localities. We
impose upon them ne terms which are not in accordance
with the rules which are established for their manage-
ment. To say, then, that the State should not under-
take the education of the whole- people might be an
(bpbyjecnotimoneawnhsearpepsluictlea
tothtiinieg
pwraessenptrospeohsoemd,e,b_uevt
eint was
by
( largell e
a r 11,11
hear.)
ofspiru,bliitc misonsezidwtahsatto
sildeevto,tthede tob itt.i—beer,
scheme of education might be proposed which wrojd
more to the purpose—that it would be better to confine
ourselves to secular education—and, with regard to reli-
gious education, not to interfere, but to leave ic. to the
ministers and religious instructors of the various de-
nominations. As far as I understand Dr. Vaughan, he had
no objection to assist the Church of England schools or
those of the voluntary societies ; but he would have the
jespsetees of the State take no notice of the religious
instruction of the pupils. Now, that is nearly the same
thing as we are proposing to do, and 1 think that this is
rather a distinction without a difference. But
there are others who speak of a secular
education, and ah.e mean very differently—a school
was to be etabislied by the State. and he sch
m aster a Sette officer, and to have nothing to
do with the communication of religious instruction,
which was to be lett to the respective ministers of the
parents of the chil Iree. This view was brought for-
ward by the Heti. Nlemhor for Bath some veers ago,
but to such a scheme I hive the tnost decided objection.
To omit altogether the inculcation it relistiotts duties, to
omit the of th lose of God and the love of
th -it neighbour, would be in my mind a great, is se
rious, end an irreparable loos,. I ti,i!.k no advantage
of uniting the yarn u. religious sects, would comp .n
sate for this apparent declaratiiin on the part
the State, that secular education alone would

ellilaseraittee and Council named some one to whole the
-meabishop had no objection. Such was the state of the
Tetestion when the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (the
M._ ember for Tamworth) came into power, and no change
,„74, made by him with respect to the appointment of the
Zt,alittee of Council. Those who had been Ministers
doule Crown immediately ceased to be Menityss of the
p until. The Right lion. Baronet opposite (Sir Robert
aloh Lord Stanley, Sir James Graham, became Meru-
, rs of the Council, and Lord Wharncliffe being Presi
bitidt of the Council, bessame head of the Committee. I
ewra than One conversation with the late Lord
and"liff4 On the subject, as I was connected
Pose have been with the British and
to eLICu School Society. And he consulted me from time
ingrile as to what should be the relations between that
a,47 and the board. , He proposed that a sum or
uat' should be granted—the propesition emanated
ra fonner Government—for the purpose of a normal
00(4- I advised them to accept that grant of the
bounnittee. At a subsequent period Lord Whart.clitle
mo°ll3le4 the secretary of that society that he should
pt the same rule with regard to it as had been
°Pted-to the national schools, but that he should not
i?Point the inspector without their concurrence. The
saY Peetor did not, according to their orders, make
examination as to relicious instruction. Sir, the
refit Continued to be made in this form, and various
were granted which from time to time were in-
rut:ed. until it reached the sum of 100,0001., and that
told wail granted, without any discussion of importance
Ito" place. When, however, we come to consider the
irate of educatioe, it appeared to us, as a very great
tuber of schools had been built, that there was no
lntee4 Such a demand for money for the purpose of
est4blia schools. The system of monitors has been
led by Lancaster and Bell, but it did, not answer
aketorily on account of the early age at which the
etdren left school, so that a boy who had only a years'
cation himself was a very unfit person to teach well,
Ftwagitivoen the proper comprehension of the subject of
to a school. It was therelore proposed that
Li certain
enna should be allowed in each school for the
7 POte of inducing a boy to remain some years in
wuGult till he thereby became an efficient teacher. It
ltd them
likeeise, that when the masters gave
to training of the pupil teachers, and render-
tlltg them efficient in their duties, that there should be a
ter!till Bum of money as an allowance made
%hd"• It was proposed with regard to some other
teachers In which there were nst monitors and pupil
r0041...t that there should at once be established
shit .'4rs, who likewise received a sum of money to in-
ns: them to remain at school. These became stipen-
to Y monitors4nd there should be an allowance made
tit ..I:usters training and teaching these stipendiary
el tors. It was proposed likewise with a view to the
.112Provement of the normal schools, and for the better
s'fitentation of those resorting to those schools, that a
1.."111 of money should he granted for the purpose of pay-
f; those pupils who should be most promising, and who
.14o:1d be recommended by the inspectots of the school,
ther with those who were at school, for the purpose
In being trained in normal schools, and that there should
be an augmentation of the salaries of the masters of
schools who had been trained, and who should obtain a
ertificate of proficiency. There should be a certain
'mot of money likewise for the encouragement of proper
tahrdens and workshops, which has to those persons,
° have taken an interest in &cation, been at various
times a very desirable object. It has been always my
'neve
of tits
the only way ttlicieutly to raise the educa.ti,,m
stilo country will be to raise the condition and pros-
q ofof the schoolmasters. It has been my view, often
o c'ften expressed in this House, whether in or out of
{S •' or;et c that the drudgery of schoolmasters was not
MY rewarded, and leading t i no prsspect of advan-
v,:,!_t it way such that men of talent and abilities who
,Brea
trained to that purpcse, cannot but leave it in a
number of instances for other and more
, Wetable occupations. Such has been the view
fil h I have not only taken myself but which
It istld confirmed by that of others.—(flear, hear.)
hee; of immense. importance that these schools should
efficient teachers. and that there should be some
anemolument or reward given ; the latter more eominvet-
,, .:Thais with the great duties which they had to perform.
...see is another propesition which I shall have to make.
; th t
4 w•ti a- any grant wilt be wanted for it this year, hut
for :1;1 be required, in all probability, next year—it is
have Purpose of pensioning off those schoolmasters who
thitt-,;.14e, en worn out in the service. No one can deny
elee,;,.."3,highly important for us to do all in our power to
4-- the ehat'acter and posits -n of the schoolmasters.
qpral surprised that so far from the country
atenieciss'N itselt alarmed at the minute of Council, it
Welt nave exclaimed—" What, is this all ? it is
V, so far, but it is not equal to meet the evil
fcre.aZi4 complained of. It ought to be a larger and a
proseTerrlau." Sir, I have said before, that I have not
teeire'L anything but what has been settled on for
Nit Years, and repeatedly referred to. It has been
*flier) I know, that this is an unconstitutional body
du makes the grant; but to that I will answer, that
the! not think any course can be more constitutional
07_4par Miuisters to come forward with an explanation
pule t they intend to do, and to depend on a vote of
same ay
for the grant. The question now is the
not _ 'lB lo 1839, 'when first,
brought forward. I did
iiii.rticipate such objections, least of all from those who
bien.brought forward this opposition, viz., the various
thsou'ati_ing ministers of London, and the various bodies
In the
the country, who applauded the Government
elinersur.se they adopted in the year 1839.—(Loud
of Coo) n I trust, therefore, that the Committee
foreedtten,eil will not be considered as so
"'e an evil as it was once supposed to be.
the t an
I am not, Sir, going to discuss
to •arge question at the present moment. I wish
P°int the attention of the House to how far these ar-
a4lov nts are endeavoured to be applied. Sir, it is lin-
Possible not to see the drift of those arguments. Sir, it
15 again said that there is sufficient already done for edit-
ti"), that there is no need of any further assistance;
that the people of England are as educated, or if not so
!olaldete-ly educated at present, they are in the way to
be so completely educated, that it a ould he superfluous
for the legislature to interfere. I wish that I could con-
cur in that representation of the case. I. wish I could say
that the voluntary efforts had done so much,
and that the education of the people was so complete,
that we need not trouble ourselves here with the matter,
which I confess is one of great difficulty, and one which
cannot be touched without exciting the feelings of
bushy opposing persuasions. The case is, however, far
otherwise. I will not, Sir, attempt to go into minute
steatistics as to what has already been done upon this
41ulisct, but I feel that lion. Member. of this House who
save paid any attention to the subject, or who have read
1111 Y pamphlet upon this subject, or who have attended to
k`me education in their wn neigbourhood—Cheers) th
'44 must see that the o
education of the people el is
country is lamentably deficient. Upon this subject I
Will take the statements of one of the opponents of this
132., easure. I regret deeply that lie should be one of its
Plaments, because his learning, his zral for the public
V piety,
, and hisreader bun deserving of the respeet
le- "try la erson—l mean Dr. Vaughan. That gentle
VIII, an article published in the BritiA Qum er'y
eifielo, and which has since been puba,hed with his
-tune, states that of the whole population of E ,gland
,',171d Wales, between the ages of five and fifteen, found
to daY schools, the proportion would be somewhat less
au one- third, about an rival number in the Sunday
and the remaining third not found in any schools
1,17‘ Y, evening, or Sunday. Statements of a similar n itore
b. " been made by Dr. llook, and otte r porsons who
te devoted considerable time and attention to the cau-e
of education, education, and all concur in agreeing, in opposition
the statements of Mr. Baines, that the education of
statement
is extremely defective.—(Hear, hear.) This
-t-e4ement does not, however, rest upon statements of
this sort. It will be found, by a re•erence to the mar•
'mite registers, that there are forty out of every 100
married who cannot write their nemes—shirty in every
0 who cannot red.—(Bear, hear.) This, we
saust own, is an immense proportion, when we
consider that the schools of 13,11 and Lancaster
have been established now for upwards of forty years,
and that voluntary education has been ever since that
time doing its utmost to overtake and subdue this amount
of ignorance. In a report furnished by some inspectors
who were sent down to inspect and report upon the state
of education in schools belonging to the voluntary esta-
blishment, it is stated that there are great numbers of
Persons who are not in the habit of attending any place
of public worship, and to whom the name of God and
Christ was utterly unknown. Not many years since I
referred to the statement of a chaplain of one of the
county gaols, I have lately consulted again the report of
that gentleman ; he is a person who has taken the
greatest pains to inform himself of the condition of the
persons brought into that place, and in that report he
states that during his three years, stay at that place the
performance of his duties has brought him into contact
with 1,733 men and boys, and 387 women and girls; and
of these the majority could neither read or write, and
Were also ignorant of the name of God and of Christ,
and of such things as virtue or vice, holiness or heaven.
There was a case, Sir, .in which some of the boys be-
longing to a school were desired to read that chapter of
St. Matthew's Gospel containing an account of " the
marriage in Cana in Gallilee," who were utterly unac-
quainted with the meaning of the word marriage. With
respect to the secular education of a number of prisoners
.14 one of the gaols, it was reported by the inspectors
, that there were 90 persons unable to name the months
of the year, 104 unable to tell the name of the reigning
Sovereign, 108 who could not define the meaning of the
terms virtue or vice, and a number of persons who were
unable to count as high as 100. Sir. I confess
it ap-
Pears to me a very shocking thing that education 'a not
given to these persons until they are sent to the gaol.—
(Rear, bear.) There are many occasions in wllich pri-
stoners had been induced to bless the day in which they
4041 been sent to prisons, because they have after their
discharge conducted themselves in a respectable manner
and earned an honest livelihood. But, Sir, is it not
desirable that before the people reached that place
they should, while young, while impressions
• ?114 be easily made upon them, be instructed
in their knowledge, and in their duties. One of the
ablest opponents of this propositkon was recently speak-
ing against it at a public meeting in this metropolis, and
1.311 that occasion some one in the body of the meeting put
wrantitilsni;:_.
hand the followinr,; question, which he gave in
Is it not better to put a sign post at the be•
ginning of a man's life: than a gibbet at the end of it?"—
rar• hear. and loud cheers.) I will not, however,
tit It the remark made on that occasion by the speaker,
bee TIM Mr. Burnet, who asked with a readiness which
theul well can command, " What if the sign-post led to
,Ribbet?"—(Hear, and a laugh.) I admit that it was
...Clever answer, and one well calcalated to catch the
'lting, but I must remark that there is nothing in the
tan which I propose, and which shall be laid before the
full—s plan calling upon the House to agree
~,,""Lloo. laying out of money for the purpose of aiding the
e`4Pols of the Established Church, of the schools of the
4-letal'ePting congregations, of the British and Foreign
~74011, and of the Wesleyans—which could
.justify
• .
--"'" "Mg that the education whicb to be

There will be the same number of officers ; and,
instead of these appointments being given to
those who say "they are quite sure that
the gentleman they recommend is a staunch political
adherent "—(Roars of laughter)—that he, besides that,
" reads and writes very well, and keeps accounts very
well," and that he is in all respects well qualified to fill
the office which they seek to obtain for him—(Continued
laughter.) Now they will merely say " tl.at he reads
and writes very well, that he keeps accounts well, and
that he has been religiously brought up," omitting alto.
gether the political part of the subject—(Cheers and
laughter)—so that the assertion that this is a great
scheme to increase Government patronage is a most idle
apprehension.—(Cheers.) Sir, with regard to one
point, which is indeed touched upon in this resolution,
and which I am aware, entails very great hardships on
those who attend many of the Church schools
ef this country, as there is a refusal to
parents to allow their children to come to
these schools unless they will learn the cate-
chism. and attend the school and the church on Sundays.
—(Hear, hear)—with regard to that rule, we neither
promote nor encourage it. If we had made it a condi-
tion on any of those grounds, that any of those funda-
mental rules on which the schools are conducted, should
be departed from before they should receive aid from the
State, we should lose the advantaAe of having such
schools well instructed and conducted as they are at
present. But for my part, I cannot but think that the
Church itself will gain a great advantage by allowing
parents to send their children to these schools without
insisting upon the children learning either the catechism
or being required to attend Church on Sundays.
—(Hear, hear.) I believe that the rule of the
Wesleyan body is this :—that it allows the parents to
educate their children according to their own religious
convictions ; and that I think is the best and at the same
time the most charitable rule, as it tends materially to
diminish that ill-feeling which might otherwise be en-
gendered. I shall receive with pleasure any improve-
ment upon the rules to be adopted in the schools with
respect to these things. Ido not think that this grant
of 100,000 L, of which a part will go to the dissenting
bodies, would entitle the Crown to exercise an undue
influence over voluntary societies. I say again, I should
like to see a change with respect to the rule adopted
in the schools in connexion with the Church ; and
I say further, that if any body of Dissenters are
willing to send their children to the Church schools, but
which t hey are prevented from doing, by the existence of
this rule, I think that would be an additional reason for
granting aid to that place, in order that a school might
be opened where all the children of the town or village
might attend.—(Hear, hear.) But, Sir, the question is
the scheme, being—as I will admit it is—very imperfect
in many respects. The question is whether you will
not, in any way, try to combat the evil which Dr.
Vaughan describes in terms which I will now read.—
(The Noble Lord then read an extract from a letter by
the Rev. Gentleman, stating that the children of the poor
were growing up in ignorance and poverty ; and that
unless these evils were obviated that they would become
a source of danger to the State.—(Hear, hear.) I own,
Sir, I cannot but consider after reading that passage and
feeling imp-essed with its truth, that any one should be
an opponent to this system of education.—(Hear, hear.)
On my own part, seeing the evil is great, I am not dis-
posed te wait till I can get a more perfect schi me. I
inn disposed rather to feel my way—to proceed as well
:is we can-euntil at length we may tind that there is
some scheme which possesses a higher claim to be con-
sidered, as one which will promote, in a greater degree,
the intelligence of the people of this country, and on
which those of cliff rent persuasions will unite and emu-
late each other ill rendering them most conducive to the
eultivation of the people—then I she!! be happy to en-
ecurege a scheme of education whica will meet with
the concurrence oF those different denominations. In
the meantime, all I ask you fur are these means—inade-
quate as they are—with the view, in seine degree, to
aispel that ignorance—in some degree to promote religion
and virtue among a great mass of the people. When I
ask you to do so, I am well aware of the opposition which
this scheme has met with—well aware that it would
have been easier to have shrunk from the task, and not
have asked this House to grant anything more than the
millions upon millions which already have been granted
to the military forces of this country; it. would been easier
to have said, " Let us have the usual millions which
you have voted from time to time for the army, and
navy, and for the ordnance ; but we will not ask for a
single farthing for the purposes of education." But,
Sir, that would not have been consistent with the duty
which we feel pressing upon o improve as far as iu
us lies, the school teaching in this country—to assist, as
far as in us lies, in giving a knowledge of the ways of
virtue and knowledge—of the truths of religion to many
of the uninstructed masses of this country ; and be the
opposition what it may—however formidable it may be
at this moment—however formidable it may be—and
I lament to say, that such is the case, and that
the proposition has withdrawn from us the aid
and support of many who " through good and
evil report " have supported our political mea-
sures—be these evils what they may, it will be
a consolation to me to know that I have made an attempt
to diminish the empire of ignorance, and to raise the
people of this country in the scale of virtue and religion,
so that they,may take a high and enviable position
amongst the people of all the nations of the world.
—(The Noble Lord resumed his seat amidst loud cheers.)
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE then rose, but owing to the
noise which prevailed occasioned by many Members
leaving the House, the commencement ef his observa-
tions were not very distinctly heard. lie said, no one
could be so unreasonable as to blame the Noble Lord
for the course he had adopted on the present occasion,
bccauso he believed he was conscientiously discharging
his duty ; but, during the twenty-or.e years he had the
honour to have had a seat in that House, he did not re-
collect a Prime Minister of the country ever paying so
great a compliment as to notice an individual Member
of that House, particularly so humble a Member as him-
self, and to condescend, and if possible, prejudice the
minds of the House against the motion which he (Mr.
Duecombe) had placed upon the paper. The Noble
Lord might call his view of the matter an " idle appre-
hension.' His consolation was that these apprehensions
were participated in by thousands, by millions of his
countrymen. The Noble Lord might call his resolution
a vote of censure on the Government, and a want of con-
fidence in her Majesty's Privy Council. If he chose to
adopt it as a vote of censure, he must do so; but if he
asked him if' he had any confidence in the Council—
or rather in the Committee of the Privy Council, that
self-elected tribunal who were to be intrusted
wan the carrying out of' that scheme—in that tribunal
he had no confidence Whatever. However the great
question involved in the metion might suffer in his
nands yet her did fuel confident that if the motion failed
it woula not fail becau,e 'here was anything in the re-
quest he was about to make that was unconstitutienal,
or at variance with Perhamentary usage, or the practise
of that House; but if the motion tailed, he felt that it
w. uld tail in conseqiieuce of the inability wiocti any
individual—an independent Member of that House—
must have iu coping anti that Ministerial influence
which he knew had be, n and efts to be brought to bear
against his mod ii; and one of the Oitfieulties with
which he should have to contend arose out of the agree-
ment and understanding, if not absolute compact, which
they had entered into with the members of the Church
of England and certain members of the Dissenting
commatthy--compacts and understandings which he
mould say were most disgraceful to those who
had made them —calling themselves "her Ma-
jesty's Liberal Ministry"—in the face of their
former opinions and their avowed principles. His
consolation, at all events, would be, if he should
tail that he believed that he had the support and good
wishes on this occasion of a great portion of his country-
men. If they asked him what made him thick so, he
should reply that since ho gave notice of his motion the
other day, he had received communications from all parts
of the country asking him to persevere iu his :motion,
and saying that the House would neglect its duty and
betray its trust if it did not grant a Committee of inquiry;
or give, at all events, some information beyond that
which the Noble Lord had given before it voted away
any portion of the public money. Many of them were
connected as well with the church as with the dissenters,
and they stated further, that if he had placed his motion
earlier on the paper, they would have been better
enabled to have supported him by meetings and
petitions ; but if he bad done so there would
have been but one discussion, whereas now the
whole question would be fully debated. Notwithstand-
ing the views of the Noble Lord, he was still of opinion
that the scheme would prove dangerous both to civil and
religious liberty ; that it was a scheme to increase the
power of the Church ; that it exceeded the functions of
Parliament ; and that it would prove an injustice to that
portion of the community who would be compelled to
contribute to its maintenance, but who would derive no
benefit whatever from its establishment ; and besides, it
would not attain the object it sought to accomplish, as it
would carry jealousy and dissension into every locality
in this country if it should be carried. The Noble
Lord had talked about intimidation having been used to
prevent the Members of that House from doing their
duty ; but he should like to know what means
had been adopted on the other side to get up
demonstrations in favour of the Government measure ?
In 1839 the Government postponed a national scheme of
education because they found they could not reconcile
the differences which prevailed on the subject; but after
the petitions which had 'oeen presented that night against
the present scheme, he asked whether there was any- 1
thing like concurrence or approbation in favour of it ?
The Noble L rd might feel himself very strong in
having bought off the Wesleyans, and obtained the sup-
port of the Church of England. He denied, however,
that the whole body of the Church of England intended
to support the Government, as a petition which he had
presented from the diocese of York stated that the peti-
tioners were but beginning to understand the plan, and
saying that they were at a loss to know what portion of
the clergy were in favour of it, as they were entirely at
a loss to know. These were not idle apprehensions, as
the Noble Lord had called them, but the apprehen-
sions of members of the Established Church. He
agreed entirely in the prayer of that petition. The
House had witnessed what had been presented—that an
immense majority were against it, and that but a small
number were in favour of it, and that they were
sented by the Noble Lord ; and it we-, -• s -
House should know how 0- ..gnt that the
...ey were obtained. They
nd.ps
at
r.whenaistparishes
ens
si
nn s
vti
(es) du
countryrtloi ef this N 4
ee Lat
sour.
rde
after. h eaTcl
loh
teuhrl could
pgc
werel,
tlatcuierpecldh2de.7odi
demonstrations
-01-1
- veincipally from Members of the Established
endeavours of Lord Ashley, making arrangements first
with the Wesleyans, and next with the Church of Eng-
land, he hal not been able to accomplish much in favour
of the Government plan. He held aprospectus in his hand
of a society established to advocate the Government plan,
the Chairman of which was Lord Ashley ; and then be
had a copy of a circular which had been sent round to
111 likely to lend themselves to getting up.demonstra-
tions in favour of it. It was dated April 6, 1847, and
after commencing Reverend '1.311*, w9nt on to state that, as

absorb its attention to the exclusion of religious instruc
tion. I do not think that this would be found to operate
well, anti I likewise do not believe ►hat from the mann r
in which the time of the children of the labourng poor
is occupied, you could impart to them in this way a
sufficient amount of religious instruction. In addition
to this, I think it is a scheme which would not be accept-
able to the people themselves,—(flear, hear)—and I am
of opinion they would be likely to confound such a
scheme with irreligion.—(Hear, hear.) They would he
wrong, I admit, in that int-rpretation of it; but still, no
explanitien or evidence which might be given them to
the corvrary would be so strong as to overpower and
put an end to that feeling. The question, therefore, I
have to ask the House is whether, considering the various
&fficulties with which this question is surrounded, it is
prepared to go with us in giving a grant of money to be
disposed of according to the Minutes of the
Privy Council, or whether it will go with the
Honourable Gentleman the Member for Finsbury
and propose against us a vote of censure.—(Hear, hear.)
But. Sir, before I sit down I wish to direct the attention
of the House to one or two other points, which I think
deserve some notice ; and, in the first place, with re-
gard to the claims of the Roman Catholics. Now, Sir,
with respect to that subject I have to say that, in the
minutes of August and December, 1846, it never arose.
There were certain rules laid down in conformity with
the original intentions of the Privy Council, and to these
only was their attention directed. By these minutes it
was settled that no school should receive a grant for
education unless the Scriptures were lead daily in it.
If, however, the Catholics had a desire to establish
schools, and, for my own part, I should be glad of such
an intention, I think the greatest caution is requisite in
drawing up minutes by which grants to such schools
should be authorised. I do not think it would do to
have monastic schools, or schools where Protestant
children would not have en opportunity of readiug the
Bible. That schools should not be established open
to this objection, I am not prepared to say, but I see
no reason why that difficulty should be raised now.
Although half a million of money has been expended in
education under the superintendence of the Privy Coun-
cil, not a shilling had gone to a Roman Catholic school.
I therefore see no reason why such an objection
should be raised now, unless for the purpose of
throwing a stumbling-block in our way.—(Hear, hear.)
Such being the character of our proposal, and the diffi-
culties being so great with regard to any other plan, I
ask the House if there is any reason fur instituting an
inquiry as to " whether the regulations attached thereto
do not unduly increase the influence of the Crown, in-
vade the constitutional functions of Parliament, and
interfere with the religious convietions and the civil
rights of her Majesty's subjects." I have already, I
think, sufficiently touched on the constitutional points
of the subject, and shown that this plan will not in-
terfere with the constitutional rights or religious feel-
ings of her Majesty's subjects ; and as regards the
influence of the Crown, I thought that this influence
was rather diminished than increased by the plan pro-
posed. As regards the stipendiary monitors and masters
of schools, the grants will be made on the reports of in-
spectors appointed by different administrations, and no
schoolmaster, after seven or eight years, when he has
attained his majority, will feel himself bound tO give nts
vote in favour of the views of any minister because he
had previously received portions of the grant at the re-
commendation of the inspectors. With regard to the
, other marks of esteem to the monitors whn may not be
appointed schoolmasters, such as emplo,. in them in dif-
ferent branches of the public service, this this is a suggestion
which was made in this Housce.olonbi!ieve,by the present
Secretary of State for the
Honourable Baronet opposite .was when the Right
I;:lsooffitc.e, and. when
Lord Grey was in oppositions,
not brought forward with an intention of lott. wians.
crossing the Weems of the Crown,—(lesr.)

it had been already asserted, that there should be an ex-
pression of opinion on the part of those favourable to the
measure, the signer of the circular wished the parson
to whom it was addressed to get signatures without
delay to a petition in favour of the scheme ; so that
every parson in a village was to become © petition agent
for the Government—it went on, "to a petition, one
which is sent"—sent all cut and dried from the Privy
Council no doubt—(Laughter)—" the petition must be
written on parchment, and one or more names must be
written on the body of it."—(Continued laughter.) If
this was not done, no doubt his Honourable
Friend who was on the printing Committee,
would not allow it to be printed. It went on, "As
they must be sent in before the 17th, no time is to be
lost ; and they may be either sent to me pre-paid—
(Laughter)—(that was a most material point in the mat-
ter, they were all pre-paid at the parcel office), or to the
Right Hon. Lord J. Russell, M.P.—(Roars of laughter)
—l3, Chesham-place, who has kindly promised to take
charge of them.—(Continued laughter.) (Signed) H
Hughes, Gordon-square, Incumbent of All Saints." Ile
(Mr. buncombe) imagined that he would not be long
allowed to remain an incumbent, and that he would be
promoted to a bishopric.—(Hear, hear.) Then came
the postscript, which, as in all letters, was the most
important part of the document. " I have authority to
state, that the authorised Scriptures must be read daily
in all the schools receiving aid from the State."—(clear.)
the Noble Lord had told them of the destitute condi-
tion of the different classes of the community as far as
regarded educatiou. Wby then had he not taken any
notice of the Roman Catholic whom be was about to
exclude. He held in his hand a statement taken from
the " Catholic Directory of 1846," where it was stated,
that there were in the different districts of London,
65,307 Roman Catholics, poor persons requiring gratui-
tous education ; and that out of these there are only
30,207 who receive it. He should like to know why
these other 30,207 unfortunates had not attracted the
Noble Lord's attention; but was this the only exclusion?
was this the only compromise which bad taken place?
What did the House think of the Wesleyan compromise,
also made at the expense of the Roman Catholics? He
would read an accurate statement of what had occurred
—stated in a letter to him from a private gentleman, "I
need hardly say, although a Protestant, that I feel the
conduct of the Government towards the Roman Catholics
to be peculiarly base.—(Hear.) The dissenters, as well
as churchmen, owe you a debt of gratitude for the notice
which you have given them." The following was a history
of the Wesleyan compromise :—About
fortnight
since, the Secretary of the Wesleyan Society called a
meeting for the purpose of forming certain resolutions,
which had been agreed upon at a previous meeting.
Before they entered upon business, they were informed
that Lord Ashley was in waiting—he was admitted, and
stated himself to be commissioned by the Government
to negotiate with them, in order to buy off their oppo-
sition to the Government. ,plan.—(Hear. hear.) Lord
Ashley stated that the Romans-Catholic Schools would
be excepted from the benefits to be conferred
by this Bill ; an object which would be very
grateful to the Wesleyans. The meeting came to
no conclusion, and it was adjourned to Manchester, to
take the opinion of some of' its members engaged in the
manufacturing districts. The Wesleyans met on the
9th of April, and again on the 14th instant. The state-
ment that the Bill had for its express purposes the ex-
clusion of the Roman Catholics had its desired object.
The claims of the Catholics were to be consi-
dere 1 in an ether minute, and the Wesleyans
were not to be prejudiced from offering it any
opposition they might think fit. It was also agreed.
that no person iu holy orders should be admitted a
master of a school, a provision made for the express
purpose of defeating a proposition of the Bishop of
Exeter.—(Neer, hear.)
Mr. MACAULAY.—This is all a romance.
Mr. DUNCOMBE.—WiII the i.i,ight Hon. Gentleman
say that Catholics are not to be excluded? If he does,
I will admit the romance. The Hon. Gentleman then
proceeded : He had received a letter from Leeds con-
taining the resolutions which had been adopted at a
meeting there of the Roman Catholics. Those resolu-
tions he trusted would find an echo in the breast of every
member in that House. " The Committee has read
with astonishment the reply of Lord John Russell re-
specting the additional grant for the purposes of
education." " The Government, in order to ap-
pease sectarian intolerance and clamour, were pre-
pared' to deprive them of the united benefit of
a fund toe which they equally contributed." And
that they could not but look with contempt and resent-
ment upon a Ministry who were about to create a new
Bill of disabilities on their Roman Catholic subjects.
Now there was no romance in all this, it was unfortu-
nately a reality.—(Hear, hear.) But he would ask the
Right Hen. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh, who
said that this was a romance, when he was opposing
Lord Stanley's motion for the revocation of these
minutes, whether he understood that they were exclu-
sive to Roman Catholics? He would ask the same ques-
tion of his Noble Friend the Member for the West
Riding of Yorkshire? If he did, his speech was
most belied, and most misreported. Lord Stanley
stated that the Scriptures were to be read
daily as a part of the national system.
He said that it had been objected to:the former scheme
that it was impracticable to unite so many different per-
suns of different religious opinions. Lord Morpeth
asked, was it right or proper to exclude their dissenting
brethren ? "He had no high opinion of many Roman
Catholic doctrines—of the Unitarians he had his own
opinions—but as long as they employed Roman Catholics,
and as long as they fingered Unitarian gold, they could
not refuse to share their privileges, or exclude them
from benefits to which they equally contributed. Now
he (Mr. buncombe) could not conceive that there could
be anything so clear as what were the intentions of her
Majesty's Ministers, and he could not help thinking
that this was base trickery to buy off the opposition of
some to this new measure. These sentiments of the
Noble Lord were applauded by Lord John Russell, Mr.
O'Connell, Mr. Hawes, and others.—(Bear, hear.) He
hoped and trusted that there would be found a sufficient
spirit in that House not to vote away any of the public
money unless the public were equally benefited.—(Hear.)
Lord Morpeth in a subsequent speech said that "he
would be ashamed if he did not think that every man
in the country—be he Churchman or Dissenter—was
equally entitled to the support of the Government. He
found the Church making the first great claim
upon the property of the country; but the
,
Church itself ought to be greatly obliged to
Dissenters, for the example which they had set her.—
( _llieers.) That was the Noble Lord's opinion in 1842.
lie should like to know would the have attempted this
exclusivisin had Mr. O'Connell been in that House ? He
believed net. lie would nut believe that the Right Hon.
Gentleman the
Member for Dungarvon would go out On
the same lobby with the Noble Lord, he would not be-
lieve that he would be a
party to create a new Bill t,t
pains and disabilities, and throw a stigma on his religion.
The Noble Lord had said nothing about the prob ible
cost of the scheme,
He would ask any man—an)
gentleman in that house if he could say within half a
million of money what would be the cost of this scheme
ten years hence.
Mr. MACAULAY.—One penny per head.
Mr. DUNCOMBE,—They- only called fur 100,0001
this year. but they were laying the foundation of a
scheme which according to the calculations which others
had made, and which they had not proved to be wrong,
would cost in two years hence nearly two millions.
flow was that money to be got to support the expenses
of the alterations which were to made under these
minutes which had been laid on the table of both
Houses of Parliament. Isle objected to the unconstitu-
tional character of this Committee of the Privy Council,
and he did not think that there was anything in the
manner in which these minutes had been laid on the
table to entitle the Committee of Privy Council to the
confidence of the country.—(Hear,
hear.)—When the
minutes were laid upon the table of the House by
Lord Lansdowne, nothing was said as to their nature
and character. It was argued in the Privy
Council, and then laid on the table of both
Houses without any prefatory remarks, for they did not
appear likely to lead to any confusion to require the
sanction of the House of Lords. It did not require that
in order to give effect to any Bill that the consent of the
House of Commons should be given. In the view of the
Privy Council, the President of the Privy Council had
only to take the minutes to the Lords and Commons,
and there let them digest them if they could. It was a
great condescension on the part of the president to say
anything at all about them. Let the people
.pay their
money and be grateful. Such was the opinion of this
secret tribunal. If they looked at the minutes them-
selves, they would find that they were objectionable, not
only on the ground of cost, but also as a general scheme.
He had said that it would not accomplish that
which it professed to attain. It would create
undue influence, increase the power of the
Crown, and the patronage of the Government.
It appears that these minutes were thought of and framed
on the 20th of August last, when some general minutes
were agreed upon, and the President of the Council re-
tired for four months until he could prepare a farther set
of minutes for the regulation of education, pupil teachers,
and stipendiary monitors. He must say that, looking at
the minutes altogether, independently of their unconsti-
tutional character—for he thought that never was such
a piece of quackery put together as the whole of these
minutes. Talk of Professor Ady and Morison's pi 11.% give
him Dr. Kay Shuttleworth's resolutions.—(Laughter.)
This measure was absurd to all practical workingmen, and
more particularly in that portion which referred to the
workshops and industrial schools—it was the laughing
stock of the country. There were pupil teachers, ap-
prenticed pupil teachers, who had a five year's appren-
ticeship to undergo. The Privy counc,,
it ought
certainly to be called inquisitors in this in-
stance, for the education of the children would
be assigned to inspectors
The girls were not required appointedt by the Privy Coun-
ttohebbeoev'esrasendel ginirlst,heeeee t course
the ggei. girls
cil. There was not much diffeience in thep
geography of
examtheina tion
requiredtbemt wp iereen.
o
proceed beyond " Compound Proportion " in figures.
Now such a thing was really preposterous—those who
were to be their future kitchen-maids ,and house-maids,
are to be crammed by the compound proportion of the
parochial clergyman (Hear, hear, and laughter.) In
the third sear the examination differed but little from
that to the first ; al -el, in the fouth year, they required
1 music and drawing specially
a knowledge of 'iv"
absolutely 'because
This was not
from models.
the means of teaching it might not exist in every school.
The Right lion. Gentleman would say that it was easy
to have models for every
school, according to the pre-
Poses Pla,t
strong
i-tr:s."—(Latighter.) The work-
sent "
sense of the injury which
they would inflict
ing men had a
uon
themselves by supporting
P this measure.-010:13.' hear.) ) It would have the
e rural districts entirely from
effect of excluding th
roe for they required, before a
the benefits of the se he me, „
s raaae, that twice the sum should,
grant of any sum wa that
AIMS, sofora grant of 20/.,
be raised by contrite%
401. would he thus ' sea besides a house rent free,.
which would wake 6 . DI some places net 151. or ;01,
p

could be raised for the education of children, so that in Adam Smith, and he took Adam Smith's authority the I and he had no doubt that the Hon. Member for Mon.. -----
ee.,
many of the rural districts there would be no benefit more readily because it was well known that be trose would perfectly coincide in the opinion he was
given, and the district wou'd be con3polled to ply its was no advocate for increasing the power of about to quote. After laying down in the strongest
share of the maintenance of other schools. The proposal Governments. Now, Adam Smith said there was a manner the general principles of interience on the part
with regard to the industrial schools must necessarily be difference, and particularly in highly civilised commer- of the Government, Mr. Hume went on to say that, "as
an injury to the honest artisan. The produce of these cial countries between the education of the higher and there are certain callings highly useful and necessary to
schools must be sold in the same market as the produce the poorer classes of society. The education of the the state, but yet which do not give that degree of ad- •
of the skilled artisan, and at a lower price, as coming poor, Adam Smith pronounced to be a matter in which vantage to any individual adequate as remuneration for
from an establishment of which the Government bore the Governments were most deeply concerned ; and he his services, the State most, by means of bribes, by means
expense, so that the trades, already down to compared the ignorance which prevailed amongst the of distinctions, or by money secure him." If there was a
the level of merely a subsistence, would be lower classes of society to a leprosy, or some other calling in the wide world to which this description ap-
still more seriously injured. How was a man dreadful disease, which it was the duty of the Govern- plied that calling was that of the schoolmaster, whose
having to pay rent and taxes, and find his own ment to check. If he searched all history he could not business was to teach the poor. This calling was useful.
tools, to compete with those who were supported by the select a stronger proof of this than what occurred in That his calling was necessary for the people no person
Government? Besides, it was known to be impossible to this country in 1780. There they witnessed the effect cauld dispute ; as little could it be, that he cannot and
teach any of these trades thoroughly without a regular of ignorance upon the population. One hundred thou- does not obtain adequate remuneration without the in-
apprenticeship far different from that which these per- sand people, at the rumours of a mad man, ruse terference of the Government. Here, then. was an ob-
sons would receive in the Government establishments- to overturn the empire, and to make the predt cessors vious reasonable i ule laid down by Mr. Hume, and this
The working classes had already seen the mischievous of the Speaker tremble in his chair—to pull the ' was a case in which the Government was clearly called
effects of the measure; they had rejected all the attempts House of Lords off their cushions, and make Bishops upon to interfere. There was no reason, i piore to
of the Government to cajole or bribe them by specious fly over the tiles.—(Hear and laughter.) That was a prove that the application of the principles' rot nonlin.-
th a good
promises of provision for their children. At a meeting state of things, however laughable it might seem,
::1 oatt s,
,ai supply u
tpLl they
system
hi
which
hri
prin-
at Birmingham, lately, it was rejected by a majority of it would not be satisfactory to witness again. At the ciple of popular education. But let the
11-11aodu
existedse look ai
nt;
152, showing the determination of the working classes time to which he alluded, six and thirty tires u
Id f:,-F4) int
e itiiirn- i lei tielinZee in) Cer ift :'
the I tp
luhit,visati:dui,
tip..l)::;,,cti:elpsii
per
holle3ectieldoin-ef
to permit the interference of the Privy Council. But blazing in different parts of the metropolis, the house 1;11'e:3.e61
they never would submit that they should not combine of the Chief Justice was destroyeJ, and the Prime
for the purpose of protecting themselves. The working Minister's children were carried from the nursery and, ing education Int. the p‘‘ocorre.
thleapvtiliiieetilp,
men were not so ignorant as they had been represented, laid on the tables in the Horse Guards. Nettling could free competition really
and knowing from experience how their funds had have been more dreadful than these act, resulting from education °tithe people might successfully be conducted;
hitherto been exhausted in strikes and contests, they had the ignorance of the population. To the same cause if the principle would be to oluestion what it was to a
resolved to act in a different manner in future. They they must attribute the riots of Bristol, the d;sturbauces system of trade, they would have seen the result of that
had now a vedette' combination of trades, and instead of of Nottingham, and all the ruthlessness of Capt. Goring, principle as they had seen it developed in f!eliseqelle° of
ti
expending their funds in a foolish and useless manner, and the horrors of the incendiary fires of the ugricul- the removal of the restrictions on trade.—([hear, hear.)
they now expended them in furnishing the raw material tural districts, and all these dreadful and degrading acts The principle of competition in mutters of education
of their re:pective trades, and in reproductive labour, in which mere than anything else tended to reduce man to cou!tl not, however, have been the one adopted to the
order to elevate the condition of their order. This was the level of the animal. Could it be pessible that such end, v:z., general education among the people. It was a
a new principle of action and biddy creditable to the things as these could have taken place in a community principle which had been tried with perfect liberty in the
working classes. It was only last week that at Notting- where the labourer had had his mind improved by edu- richest country under heaven, and in a country the
ham where the frame-workers who were Members of cation—bad been taught to find pleasure in the exercise people of which are considered as intelligent Persons,
the national union, had succeded in preventing 80 abate- of his intellect—had been taught to reverence his maker and cannot be fairly accused of being illiberal. If, then
ments in the prices paid, on account of their belonging to regard the value of life, or to respect the constituted there ever was a country in which tlinprinciple of none
to the association. The working classes of that town and laweurauthorities of the country. This appeared to interference could have worked with effect, and shown its
were now getting their own frames and carrying him to afford an irresistable argument upon the power, it would have been in this country. The state of
on work on their own account. Referring to subject. It was clearly the duty of Government to things would have been this—the schools of the country
the pamphlet of Dr. Shuttleworth ; be could not see protect the lives and property of the community, would have been models, perfect institutions, to be found
why the Government should have sanctioned the gross and as ignorance tended the render both of life in every part of the country ; every school would have
libel which he found contained in page 20 of the and property unsafe, he was at a loss to conceive how been an example, it would have contained an excellent
" Minutes of Education." He stated there that the it could be denied that education belonged to the pro- little library and mechanical apparatus, the very fact of
object of the Dissenters in their opposition was to vince of Government.—(Hear, hear.) It was admitted such a thing as grown-up persons, who were unable to
advance the interests of particular sects. Now, what he that Government by some means ought to protect the read or to write their name, would have been unheard
(Mr. Duncombe) wanted to know was, what objections lives and property of the community. Now, if they of. And with respect to the schoolmasters, they would
could there be to the motion of which he had given took away education what means were there left. Absoe have been men as expert in the business of imparting
notice ? It had been said by the Noble Lord at the lutely none which could be resorted to except in cases of knowledge, and in the management of the minds of
head of the Government, that it was a vote of censure, extreme necessity. Take away education, and all that young people, as their cutlers were in making knives,
though he (Mr. Duncombe) did not consider it as such ; was left to them was military force, gaols, penal settle- and as their engineers were in repairing machinery ;
but if the Noble Lord would have it so, let it be taken as ments, gibbets, and tortures. Now if the protection of they would have been amply remunerated and their lot
such, as it involved a principle which he considered a life and property were the end to which Government in life would have been respectable, and they would have
just one. He for one could not consent to the patronage was bound to look, the only wise and effectual means been treated with all that respect which the instructors
which was to be conferred on a self-elected body ; and to attain it was, to elevate the moral and intellectual of the morals and intelligence of the people should [al-
the increased power which it gave to the Crown. Already character of the people. If Government had the power ways receive. Did they show that they possessed any
the patronage of the Government had been too of inflicting punishment en the poor, who could doubt of those things at the present time ? Look at all those
much increased. Let them look to the in- that it was the duty of Government to provide educa- authoritative sources of information, thechargesofjudges
creased patronage given them by the railway 'don for them ? It seemed to him that no proposition the resolutions of grand juries, and the reports of public
board. The local Small Debt Courts had also could be more plain. The truth was manifest when they departments which have anything to do with ascertaining
increased their patronage very much. The judges reflected that had it been acted upon, probably more the state of education among the people. Their effect is
which were created, and were to be created, under that than one-half of the population who had been execu'ed the s. me as those facts already stated by my Noble
Act, would cause a vast accession to their patronage. for crime might still have been alive—more than one- Friend. Take the report of the register of the prisons.
It was thus increased to an enormous extent. The new half of the inmates of the gaols might have been at In Hertford Gaol and House of Correction there were
Board of Health proposed under the Bill just introduced liberty, and more than one-half of the inhabitants of 700 prisoners, one half of those were unable to read or
would give the Ministry more patronage ; and there the penal settlements might have been honourably em- to write. In Maidstone gaol there were 3,000 prisoners,
were also to be four new Bishops, without seats, ap- ployed on their native soil.—(Cheers.) Looking at the 1.300 of whom were unable to read or to write, and not
pointed. These Bishops were to be without seats, but first report Presented to the Committee of Education, more than 50 ale to read or to write well. In Cold-
they were to occupy the vacancies as they occurred. In just after a period of insurrection, it appeared that in b tth-fieltla there were 8,000 prisoners, but only seven
addition to this, there was now proposed these pensions the district where the insurrection had taken place there who could read or write well. Look again at the register
to schoolmasters and schoolmistresses, which would were about 11,000 children of the age at which children of marriages, of 130.000 couples married in the year
greatly add to the power of the Government. The pa- were generally educated, but of these ab eat 8,000 were 1844, more than 40,000 bridegrooms and 60,000 brides
tronage thus given them would be enormous. It was attending no school at all, while the other 3,000 attended could not sign their names, but put their marks to the
too great a power to give to any Government, as they schools; these were defective in their system of educa- register.—(Laughter.) Even the education that was
could not tell within half a million of raoney what the tion—filtby to the last degree, and conducted by masters received in some of the schools was of a most
extent of this grant would be, within the next who stood in the position of ruined tradesmen. In such inferior description. Many of the schools are mere
twenty years. The Noble Lord had said a great districts as these where the population were suffered to dens—a heap of fuel on one side, half a testament, a
deal about the unreasonableness of the opposition grow up in this state readily listened to the advice of dog's-eared spelling-book, a broken slate, and a pen.
but if he thought so why not refer the whole subject to bad men, who were anxious to excite them to rise And then the master—(Laughter)—and then the master
a Select Committee? Why not refer it for investiga- against the constituted authorities. Here was the —where was the high principle, the high spirited, the
tion to a fair, and enlightened, and impartial Committee? manner in which various insurrections were brought heroic devotedness on his part to the improvement of the
If the Government would not consent to this, it was a about, and what were the means resorted to to put it pupils committed to his care, many of the men were
proof that there was something in the scheme which down. Having neglected to attend to one means they merely discarded serving men, ruined tradesmen, many
would not bear the light of day, and that the real ob- had only one other to adopt, and that was resorting to of them who could not work a rule of three sum, who did
ject was to increase the power and influence of the military force. Had the people been educated they not know whether the earth were a cube or a sphere,
Crown. The result of this scheme, in his opinion, never would have listened to the advice of designing whether Jesusalern was in Asia or America. Those
would be, that instead of a free and an enlightened men, and there would have been no necessity for were the men who could do nothing else, that were ap-
people they would have an enslaved and corrupted na. the shedding of blood. lie said, therefore, that educa- pointed to train the hearts of the rising generation—
tion.—(Hear, hear.) He would now conclude by mowtion was not only part of the functions of Government, ( Hear, hear)—and upon whom the whole virtue, prose
ing the amendment of which he had given notice. but it was the best end to which Government ought to perity, and freedom of the country depended.—(Cheers.)
Lord DUNCAN seconded the motion. He had listened aim for the protection of the lives and property of the If the House thought he was taking too harsh a view of
with great attention to the speech of the First Minister of community. When he saw the efforts that were being the present sta of education he would appeal to an
the Crown, and he confessed he had been much disap- made in the country against this scheme, and remem- authority which
he thoueht no person could deny—he
pointed with the speech. He had expected that the bored that all the great Legislators and moral philoso- would
refer tact the report of the congregational union
Noble Lord would have made some explanation of the ne- phers of all ages, and the eminent men who were representing
the non-conformists of England. Last year,
cessity which there existed of keeping up the Council of generally disposed to restrict the functions of Govern- not quite a year ago, upon the 16th of May, 1846, the
education which had caused such heart-burniegs in the ment, were in favour of such a plan—when he remem- report of the committee of the congregational union for
country. He had expected also that the Noble Lord bored that the opinion of all the greatest champions of general education was presented to the union. It was
would have seen the necessity of including the Catholics civil and religious liberty, and of none more so than of moved " that the report now read be adopted, and
as well as the Protestants in the grant; but he had been those whose memory were held in the greatest reverence printed and circulated under the direction of the
disappointed. The Noble Lord had made great reference by the Non-conformists of England, was in favour of board." That motion was made by Edward Baines, jun. ,
to what had been done since 1839; whereas, in his (Lord Government education—he really was surprised to see of Leeds. What he would now react would he thought
Duncan's) opinion, that from 1834 to 1839, education the movement that was now going on throughout the be considered as an opinion nut to be disputed. "If it
had been in a more flourishing condition than it had country. lie was the more surprised when he remem- were necessary to expose facts to such an assembly as
been in any former period. He wished to call attention bared Government education was supported by those this, with respect to the interest of so large a portion of
to the constitution of the Committee of 1839, because he staunch non-conformists who, in time of Bishop the population of our towns and rural districts, we could
found that the name of the then Master of the Mint Laud, for the sake of religious principle, refer them to the exhibitions in the carious localities
(Mr. Labouchere) was now awanting, and further he left their native country for the new world of Massa- by the published docutnents of the Registrar-General's
saw that, whereas the commission of that year consisted chusetts, and when they established that State took the reports. Those reports would furnish us with enough
of thirty-nine persons, the commission of this year con- charge of education. In 1642 they passed their first to make us modest in speaking of what has been done for
sisted only of six persons, and these were all Members Act upon that subject, and the preamble recited that the humbler classes, and make us ashamed of England.
of the Government. He found that in the year 1841, Lord it was a matter of the deepest interest to the State that that the sons of the soil of England should have ken so
Nionteagle, who had no connexion with the Government, the poorer class of the community should be educated lung uegleetel, anti should present to enlightened
but was only a Privy Councillor—he found him sitting under the direction of the Salt-. Ile had peculiar 1 fateigners teas oiling from other chore:; such a sad spec-
on the commission of IS4I. Now, if Lord Monteagle, pleasure in referring to such an authority as this, be- ; Salle of le-glee:et! inmate! degradation." He. like Mr.
being unconnected with the Government, and bat a cause those who followed their religious principles it; ' Dames, most cordially adopted that report. It was in
Privy Councillor—if he found Lord Monteagle a Mem- the present day were the advocates of the, voluntary rfect titzeenient with it
the information he bad been
her of that Committee, he should like to know whether system, and, in support of that se stem, they insariably able to obtain upon the subject. He believed that the
any reason existed why the Archbishop of Canterbury, pointed to America, saying, see what the voluntary stito of education alnyng the common people of this
or the Duke of Norfolk, or Mr. Fox Maule, or such system has done there ! Why the practice of America country `. ought to make us ashamed at the sad spectacle
sort of persons—(Cheers, ironical cheers, laughter, and in this subject was just the reverse. A national sy,teiu preeented to the enlightened foreigners who visited our
the most absolute abandon for a few seconds)—he only of education was the last legacy that Wa,hington It ft to shere&"—(llear. hear, and cheers.) And now, under
meant to say, that all, or any individuals might be the republic of the United States, while Jefferson was what system had this state of things come to
introduced under this principle, on this Committee.— ever an advocate of a system of education conducted by pass ? Und-r a sy seen of non-interference—of
(Continued laughter.) Let the House look at the in- the State. He quoted the authority of Jefferson with free competition—ft system which they were told
specters made by this Bill. They had 16 inspectors, peculiar pleasure, because of all the eminent public teen was just as powerful a stimulus in education as in mat-
who were paid 13,60(1., being thirteen and a-half that had ever existed in the world he was obe of the ter;, of trade or commerce. How long had it been in
of the whole outlay.—(Hear.) Now, he thought that greatest who had ever resist.sci any increase in the this state? This morning be received a paper said to
where this enormous expense was incurred in a mea- functions of Government. Against these authorities only contain e reasons for opposieg the educational plan,"
sure fur the benefit of one section of a class, that the one'eminentlaatecieould be placed, and the clamour of 1846 and one of the reasons was if you wait with patience,
[louse ought to look with jealousy at the whole Bill. against a Government system of education was raised private enterprise will do it all. They had been waiting
Looking at the principle involved in the measure, he by those who opposed the wisdom of their former selves. with patience ever states the time of the Heptarchy.
thought that it was opposed in almost every particular It seemed to be the opinion of them who rait•ed the How long were they still to wait? Till the year 2847
to the rule which had guided Government in 1834. But clamour that the proper functions of Government was or
.38.17? Was there ever an experiment tried during
Who was the originator of this measure ? Let them not always to wait till necessity called for the
exercise. of such a length of time with so little effect, and yet these
be told at one time that it the
Pe Prime Minister, and military force, and th.e had nothine to do with resorting men called upon them to go on waiting still loner
at another time that it was the President of the Council. to means for improviinyg the intelle'ctual and moral che- The experiment had been tried under the most favogure.
fie trusted that this suhjiict would be reconsideted. He racer of the The duty of the statesman was able circumstances. They were asked to wait a short
did not desire to see himself place,' in opp isition to the simply to see grhpeeart)i)t.oew. town
grow up and provide gaols and time, and all would be right. He defied them, however,
Government, but he trusted that the number of petitions barracks for t e correction of the Peo le instead of to point out a single c Ise in which tree competition had
presented would have their off et, and that they would schools for improvement .of their milers, and when been productive Of beneficial results. And as the south
not be thrown over to the ne-rciea of the Privy Council. moments of danger arrived !hey will be wanted of Britain formed an argument, Si) did also the northern
Knowing, as he did that the Right Hon. Bart., the Mem- to he at libert te send down soldiers to mow them down, part form another. Now here were two nations of the
tier for Tamworth, had opposed a grant of this kind in but he must oyn no account attempt to cultivate or teach same orizin, of the same bloed, speaking, with a slight
1839, on a highly constitutional ground, he should con- the intellect of the peo. culturalpme might be said of diversity-, the same language, separated, at the same
aude by quoting a portion of the speech delivered by the populations agri disbtrifcts. He meant the time from the see of Home in the same generation, and
him on that occasion. The Noble Lord quoted a per- incendiary's torch was at work e ore t e statesman by the same great. reformatory movement, united under
a as
oe;nes
ripointed ni
ne 2
don of the speech of Sir Robert Peel, in 1839, and sat could interfere, and he must abstain from all attempts to one sovereign, going through the same sources of politi-
remove the ignorance which might prevail on machinery cal revolutions, united together through a long series of
down by seconding the motion.
Sir ROBER r INGLIS said that it would be in vain, and subjects of that nature. It was difficult to under-. ages, and yet there now existed great differences be-
at that moment, to try to create a different organization stand in intent way men of undoubted ability and of tween them. England had been for many ages one of
in the machinery for giving education to the country. excellent ions should have become attached to so the richest, most prosperous and civilised nations in the
He retained this conviction as strongly as ever, that it was strange a theory. The explanation which occurred to world ; its all these matters Scotland had been almost at
to the Church of England, and Church alone,that the State him was, that he believed a considerable portiere of the bottom of nations calling themselves civilised. They
should delegate this duty ; and however defective he this theory arose from the Operation of a law of which (the House) knew that one hundred and fifty or two
might think this scheme of the Government he would they might trace the operation in many similar ways, hundred years ago Scotland and Se,otchinen were words
receive it thankfully, if he could not receive it cheer- viz., the law of reaction. The country was treated with contempt ; they were considered as words
fully. It was his own deliberate conviction, that they was just fresh for a great contest with the Government belonging to a people very far beneath other nations in
would not have received so good a measure from any upon the subject of interference in matters of trade, civilisation ; and even the greatest of Scottish patriots
other section or party in that House.—(" Hear, hear," men's minds were naturally much excited by the pro- seemed all but to despair of ever raising the mental and
from Mr. Duncombe.) lie (Sir It, H. Inglis) had stated cess. Much was said of the advantages of non-inter- moral condition of the lower classes of thhaticounrtryie
deliberately his opinion, without any intention of injuring ferenemeinthe advantages of free competition; and some So general was the feeling that they were ac, ova di t
her Majesty's Government in the eyes of those who had men oTat ability and excellent intentions seemed in- civilisation, in the 17th cffentendryfloletc her,
_of Saltoun, it
a brave and
given them so general and so ready a support.—(lronical alined, as soon as they had driven the Government from man who fought and
.seu
dervf
his: liberty
ountr 's independencee
cheers.) It was asserted that the education given to the a promise which clearly did not belong to them, to drive able man—evherit ieed rii
population of this country had been generally furnished them from a promise which appeared to be clearly a was so.overwri it na
by the Dissenters. He denied this. Until within the part of the legislative domain. When he looked into educattone,
na d t h p rnenvcaol
ne
nt ec me p
01 at t
minio•seyrthye
last century, they had no Dissenters at all—(Hear)— the works whiele had been wrttten upon the subject, ns ta t hteo par os)p.os
tseeldo tohfe
ii um:
ri tonvtei
mo nea
nmlootfw: npgseltarssnt toe: 1:1,
osrl
a t least no Dissenters who assumed to themselves the saw the principles of non-interference clearly laid dos! he
ie. se 17auvne tl.rirfi
ti no
submit co t ud as the only means of compelling th e
constitution of an independent church. An Hon. Gen- People were told to remember the power of the pe
tleman spoke of the Lancastrian system, but the Hon. ciples of fair competition, and this argrent se
Gentleman ought to remember that the Church imme- pervade the whole of their thosught , tipnleoosnpat hit
os
uf rno mwatshepdunsahtedw.hitchhe
diately introduced an equal if not a better system, &pat speakers seemed to imagine h writers h
tif sfraeemeoimepwatlion was passed the great Act of 1696, fotPhraatthripejaasmnietpcillitlnegt°fooff Scotland
olcahonlesdr.
of Dr. Bell, which was universally allowed to an old useful in matters of trade ant d commderce., pt could be no
eSieeemtehneecyhoategtheethaiart,
uhrasthb:setnereifileitcyteodiitlsnsosipli,ttehoefStchoetcihn:
Hod
method of education. The 'lon. Member !could less excellent when applied to the education o epe
find that all the grammar schools in England had been ple. They seemed to . think, that because it was good man has no reteion to envy any other part of the world.
founded by gentlemen belonaingsto the Church of Eng- when applied to corn, it must be sound also when tap- Wherever he went, and there were few places he did
land, and only within the last seal years was a school plied to the school. No analogy could, however, be more not go to—(Laughter)---the same undeviating career of
founded by Dissenters. Still he could not iOtt think, that false, Consider for a moment what it was which made success was sure to await him. If he enlisted he soon
the framers of this measure would find themselves &Ivan- the principle of freedom of trade so excellent. In trade became a non-commissioned officer, and no matter what
taged by going to a constitutional school—(Laughter)— 1 there could be no doubt but that the producer or dis- pursuit he applied himself to, the result was successful.
He deeply regretted that he could not give an uncOndi- 1 poser of sugar could be able to sell his sugar at a more About one hundred years ago it was customary in Eng'
final support to the measures of the Government, but reasonable price than if Government were to turn grocer land to speak of them as it was now of the Esquircauxs
yet while saying this he was bound to observe that no and open ti etrocer's shop in every parish throughout the but the language of contempt was at au end, thath of
new reason had been alleged—no new principle had eountry.—(aear, hear.) Why was it so? Because any esteem took its place. The.system of educationtesectaeslshed
been advanced for the scheme which the Government indlvidital grocer had more interest in adding 0 the inScetland wasone opento many objections
had proposed. All had been made fair and bright, but public welfare than any Government could possibly ha e, now to particularize, but ihmperefevcetr tt
acould have done bad
it was evanescent in its character and quite unjustifiable If the grocer's prices were above those of his neighbours, rose to such a degree afsrete
in its principle. The Government appeared to have if the grocer's sugar was worse than that of his rivals, he education been
the
et taor,am
acted on the principle of convenience, and according to was ruined; he had no customers; his name them see how h
the facts which had transpired there might be a soon appeared in the Gazette, and his children what cliff
thee richer of the two—frce courpetitiont wasv al
present advantage, they were quite ready to avail them- took refuge in the union worlthouse,—(Hcar, hear.) to oenera
d egereise its influence under the most fa o
selves of it. They adduced the principle offered by the If, however, on the other band, his supply was good, the lo results argument
I 1 o eeec-neyo dtmnispnteottodli it-ei.otni:LoecWt otuhenleir'r then,obse"Aleest
national schools and might attempt to show how sue- prices were as low as his neighbour's; if he conducted ablew eircumestoaan;reesg,
cessful they had been. But they might as well attempt his business properly, and was civil aa tai do
n he
aUnion consequences,
iin a
to show the principles of the mode of Government with man would grow rich—he looked forward to his chaihse
and of which all foreigners who visited them it'qs
the lamentable ignorance which existed in this ceetuitry,
respect to the tide-waiters.—(Laughter.) It might be and to his country house; and this was the reaslon y
vii to his customers, the out by the
irrwthe ashamed. In the other country, which was little feet
said that with the advance of 100,000/., there Was allel voured by nature—one with a very imperfect state of
r
the principle of free competition was benefitecsita
pa
a sufficient opportunity for carrying out the whole supply of pods: But there was not the slipghia
airtnacisruileihiatigoenn,ersaulchprsoescpuerriittyy,
goods and education—the consequence was such an improvement
of the scheme. But he had serious objections, and the
first of these was to the unscriptural portion of the the education of the people.
in these cases between the freedom of
ctlrasad
ever seen in the world before. Now, if these results
oafs lihreadanbdeenprohirrdly;
education plan, and he had serious objections as to how have the same interest, the satniWerthhstagrtoonegd and p
schoolsr e s s iansg
the in-
far these plans should be carried out. He had serious serest in supplying the po experiment in surgery or che-
seof Men could
ersons who contributed some mistry, would it not be conclusive as to the excellence
ob Actions to the plan as it now stood- He had serious grocer had in supplying-h-s customersw
with good sugar? had happened in any
objections to an unsanctified education—to that education There were benevolent.to p
give education to the poor, and of the course adopted.—(lieer, hear.) The objections
that the guide post sometimts led to the gibbet. If they of their.timern order
that there existed among which had been raised to this question were vanishing
would give the returns they would sho w that education had they might if they please say
side. If the Government had nothing to do
rather increased crime than le it.
from By those returns he such persons a kind of benevolence and a competition to on every
would ehow that out of 1,000 convictions,agt,inst those ho d g ed, but do not let lion. Members be imposed upon by with the education of tile people, then all the grants
were shown to peaces, at least, soma. deeree of eduwca• duom-eore play upon words, or imagine that such a call- which had been made were but a waste of money ; but
ea - • • t 11 to be compared widi that earneTt, if they had, then they sklould not repared to forego
tion; 845 were against persoe.s possessing education; ans. petition is a a
H • h - • -t tong, and fierce competition, prompted by the desire the advantages of the system for dices ake of one hun-
-145 against without education. e saw, ow ever, in bro ,
the reign of her Majesty's Government,ff. that there was for wealth on the one hand, and a (bead of ruin ou the tired, or even two hundred thousand pounds. Even in
waive all minor o ences, and with the hope other.—(Hear, hear.) Would it t
no be strange to an economical view he considered that it had itsrecom-
such would be the case, he would give his cordial say that there was a great bat of benevolence mendations, for when they took into consideration the
a design to
that evinced in this country towards the nd munewhich would be saved in
poor., a prisons and punishment
vote in support of her Majesty's Government.
Mr. MACAULAY regrett
ed that he felt any neeess upon that ground it would be better to abolish the of crime, and for the purpose of preserving older and
sity to make an observation on the plan of the Go- poor's rates, because the abolition of such rates would property, lie believed
education of the people. It give them more by 's score alone. The money, too, could
ieved its advantages could not fail to be
vernment for the
tothebequeestdiuoonateitisi vooloudn the payment of poor's rates from appreciated on tbi
tary contributions. The at. holds nail - be expended under the superintendence of the managers
seemed a amigo time gument equa y
in the case of education as in the case of the of the school in each locality ; so that the charge of cor-
to whether thepeoplet° wenireoot
as the duty of the Government 1, gpoor'Con and political jobbing could not be borne out.
or not, or whether it. w s rates. It must appear on a moment's consideration rup i .
_With that education. He •ht ' - the first lace Government did not appoint the
to provide them,
_te mg that the task of educating the people is For, in p ,
statutes to show that there was upon ever • h teachers ; in the second place, they did not dismiss
cite the penal er round just such as those with which
cite
on the part of the public or of the the Government them ; in the third place, the managers of the schools
should interfere. He did not know
no deficiency
by the existence were perfectly independent of the -Government ; end.
was well shown
state, as he could notquote any in the fourth place, the salary to :the teacher welt
,
l statutes. On that subject drawn with such clearness by any person as by Mr. .
Pena - use stronger terms than those of II
hioher authorttY, or .....adareferred M David Horne, entirely contingent ou the approval of tbe lu'ustergt
unles ughter.) He to r.
is • ' '