The Sun.
London, England, 1841-05-01 00:00:00

EVENT:NG EDITION

4

1 iittal important to be discussed incidentally ; and it would be
possible to enter into it without absorbing the whole time of
If he House. But he could not help expressing his sa-
lisfaetion at the rainouncement which had been made, and he
hoped that the plan which was proposed would be broad, and
suited to the interests of the country. The Government
should be -e.repared to deal fairly with the manufacturing in-
terests of this country. Representing as he did a large menu-
facturine; town, which had suffered the most painful privations
from tlee want of a free commercial intercourse with the
United States, he should be wanting in duty to those who sent
him tea this Housei if he did not express the great satisfaction
with which he had heard that night great traits in high
p 1 s--(Cheers)—great principles simply laid down, which,
if fairly and boldly worked out by the Government, would
sardure to it a corresponding suppoit. The Right Hon. Gen-
teleman who had just addressed the House had admitted that
sthe financial affairs of this country had arrived at a crisis, and
.some bold steps must he taken for remedying the evil. He
begged to remind the House, in conclusion, that the present
Government had paid the expenses of the wars in which this
country had been engaged as they arose.—( Hear, hear.
Though the wars were not of great magnitude, it Was a new
feature which ought not to be overteeked—( Heals Lear )—in
considering the subject before the House.
Load F. EGERTON said that though. this was not the
Protser time for entering at length into o.ie discussion, he could
not' help expressing 'his unmitgea-ed astonishment, not that
the subject of the Gore-laws Should have been announced for
'discussion by the Right Hon. Gentleman—( Hear, hear)—
though he should, not hate thought it possible that that subject
should be intro'ineed by a Government, at the head of which
was a Noble Lord who had delivered Pane very strong opi-
nions on the -subject—( Hear, hear)—but he chiefly rose to
express his astonishment that the discussion on that subject
should ha-ye been postponed for five mortal weeks,—( Hear,
hear-) He owned he should have thought, consideriug its
anlmitance, that it was a subject upon which, in the present
contrition and circumstances of the country, the Government
„wo'sld have made up its mind as to what it %mid do.—( Hear. )
n'at it would be oo disgraceful to the Government that a subject
aof such vital importance_a subject which involved every
-transaction relating to landed property—that he could not sup-
pose that *any Ministry holding the reins of office in this
country er,uld trifle with such a question.—( Hear, hear.) He
did not intend in alluding to the subject to express a censure
of the. Government, for he did not feel himself called upon on
that <occasion to do so. He could not, however, but express
his l'Alief that the Noble Lord, who might at any time come
downs at five o'clock to propose any measure he should think
ad si%ble, ought to have fixed upon an earlier day for intro-
()easing his intended alteration in the Corn-laws. He (Lord
Egerton) could not imagine why the Noble Lord had not done so.
Let the country be allowed to decide without delay on that
'great question, and let there be no delay in appealing to their
udgment.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Noble Lord seemed ex-
ceedingly angry and indignant—(" Hear, hear," atm the Mi-
nisterial benches)—at something, but what that something
was he ( Lord J. Russell) could not tell. It was not tha
the Corn-laws were to be discussed—it was not that the question
was to be brought forward by the Government—it was not that
the question should be fairly and impartially considered ; on all
these topics the Noble Lord was not angry; but he said there
was something in his imagination the Noble Lord had
a very powerful imagination--(Laughter)—which induced him
to feel angry at the course eshich the Government had taken.
As he (Lord John Russoll) had already said, he could not pre-
tend to the imaginatien of the Noble Lord, and therefore he
cou'idnot tell what ne had been driving at. With regard to
theslateness of the time at which he proposed to bring forward
kes measure, the Noble Lord was right in saying that on cer-
'cain days at five o'clock, he (Lord John Russell) might
..rd
forward
didnot
any motion he might think expedient; but the
toleseem to have attended to the importance
.of the questions which had already been before the House.
The great objects connected with the Budget would still de-
mand a separate consideration, and it would not be convenient
to mix up. with these questions others of an equally important
nature. 'Mere was a very important subject which had already
occupie,d much of the attention of the House before Easter ; and
he shonild think it a most inconvenient course to bring forward
any 'other measure before that had been decided. He could
not imagine that any Hon. Gentleman on the opposite side
ro.eant to shrink from the course which the majority of all
,turtles had taken on the Poor-law Bill.—(Hear, hear.) Such
:a mode of proceeding was only imputed to them by their
friends and supporters but he (Lord J. Rursell) had no 'ap-
vrehension of the kind, and he conceived the House would be
'ready to proceed with that question as it had hitherto done.
He would proceed with that measure before he undertook any-
thing of an important nature. That seemed to him a very
simple explanation of what had made the Noble Lord so angry,
and he was sorry his imagination had become so excited upon the
subject._( Hear. )
Colonel SIBTHORP said that it was clear to him that the
Noble Lord opposite, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
had put their heads together for the purpose of seeing how they
Should extricate themselves from themselves, and 011 that occasion
-the Chancellor of the Exchequer must have said to the Noble
Lord—" Let us try the Corn •laws—we will then seem to feel
for the people, and anxious to take off their burdens." But
let him (Colonel Sib:horp) tell them that they seemed altoge-
ther to have forgotten that they were themselves the grievous
oppressors of the labouring class, by the persevering votes
which they had given in support of the new Poor-law. He
did not expect to see Ministers have the decency to resign,
but he hoped that the Sovereign would soon call upon them to
surrender the powers which they abused to the injury of the
country,
Lord SANDON said that he was at a loss equally with his
Hon. Friend the Member for Newark, to understand what
vrero the grounds on which the Chancellor of the Exchequer
torpected hereafter an increase in the revenue. To him it
:appeared that the hopes of the Right Honourable Gentleman
were mere guess-work—mere conjecture; and he thought the
House was entitled to know on what data he proceeded when
he stated that a change in the system of duties would produce
a change ;.n the revenue. It was also surely most important
that the Noble Lord should tell them distinctly what was the
measure with regard to the Corn-laws which he intended to
intrisesice. —(Opposition cheers.) The reason he had already
a.sis,ned for his silence on the subject was, that it was not his
me 'sure they were debating. But there would be no question
of importance next week to occupy their attention, as the Noble
Jourd had himself postponed for another week the further con-
siideration of the New Poor-law. How, then, did the Noble
(Lord intend to occupy the next week?—( Hear, hear.) Let it
also be remembered that in the interval of suspense they would
have the whole country agitated for principles of free-
trade on the one side and the contrary principles on the other.
If Ministers had declared their real intentions they might do
much to allay public excitement ; or, at all events, they would
relieve all parties from the inconvenience of agitating on an
undefined question without any statement to guide them.
He would ask the Noble Lord what excuse he could give for
not telling them distinctly whether he intended a fluctuating
or a fixed duty, and what was to be its amount? If their in-
tentions remained unknown they would raise exaggerated
hopes on the part of the manufacturing population, and exag-
gerated tears on the part of the agriculturists.He hoped,
therefore, the Noble Lord would boldly tell the country what
was the precise course which he meant to pursue ; and he did
not think the House or the country should be left in suspense
upon the subject.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he could not see how his
Noble Friend had any right to reproach him with the course
lhe had taken. He believed that it would have been entirely
unusual on his part to have taken any other course, and, pro-
, hably, as far as he knew, without any precedent. He, certainly,
had generally seen that when a Government had a proposition
to make, they usually gave notice on the subject some time
before they stated the particulars of that proposition ; and the
reason for such a course was very obvious, because if an out-
line of a measure was given without the reasons by
which it might be supported, all those who might object
to it would have the great advantage of bringing forward their
arguments against it, while the geounde which might justify
its introduction remained unknown. When notice had been
given on the subject of the Reform Bill, or of the measure for
the emancipation of the slaves in the West Indies, no reproach
ttavi ever been made that the exact nature of the intended
measures had not been stated to the House. He made those
aemarks in answer to the reproaches of the Noble Lord. How-
ever, if it was thought that an explanation of the general prin-
ciples of the measure would tend in any way to prevent agita-
tion, by directing attention to points which it was not
intended should be brought before the House, he could
have no hesitation in saying that the general principle on which
he meant to proceed, was the same principle which he had
stated in that House and elsewhere some years ago—namely,
the principle of a moderate fixed duty.—(Ministerial cheers. )
He had already stated that to be his own individual wish in
that House and elsewhere, and in bringing forward a measure
founded upon that principle, he would introduce it as the mea-
sure of the Government in general—as the measure of the
Cabinet, united upon that question; and he was quite, sure
that his Noble Friend (Lord Melbourne) would be regardless
of the t=-ants which the Noble Lord, the Member for Lanca-
shire, had chosen to direct against him that night.—( Hear. )
He ,:sas therefore prepared to abide by the principles that he
hail stated. He did not think it necessary, and he thought
/...tte House would not think it right that he should enter into
the details.—(Loud cheers.) With regard to the general
nrinciples on which the Government was prepared to act he
had stated before the Easter holidays the general course of po-
licy which the Government was prepared to adopt with respect
to trade. He believed that sound as were those general prin-
ciples, and unanswerable as were the theoretical arguments by
which they were supported, even if those principles were still
more sound, or those arguments still more unanswerable on
ord;nary occasions, yet the present state of this nation was one
which more particularly required the application of those prin-
be
cipnefit les—
to(Lond cheers)—not only on account of the great
be derived from their prudent application,
but because our present situation was one in which
great miscbiefs—(Loud cheering)—not to say perils—could
alone be avoided by their judicious application.— (Cheers. )
If they were determined, he would not say to adopt or to reject
this or that particular proposition, but if they were determined
to make no change in the commercial policy of the country—
if they were determined to stand by the principle of monopoly
and exclusion, they would be adopting a line of policy that
could not prove otherwise than fatal to the commercial in-
terests of the country.—(Loud cheers.) His Right Hon.
Friend near him would present his propositions to the House
at as early a day as possible, consistently with the convenience
of the House, and he should bring the question, of which he
had given notice,. on the day he had stated.—(Cheers.) He
trusted that what he had said as to the general principle of the
measure, would rather have a good than a prejudicial effect,
and if advantage should be taken of what he had stated for the
purpose of attacking the proposition before the grounds on
which it was supported could be brought forward, he could
only say that at the request of the Noble Lord, and for the
Purpose of forwarding the public business, he had gone out
of the usual course of proceeding.—(Loud cheers. )
Sir R. PEEL said that if the Noble Lord anticipated
that the proposition which he was about to make on the part
of the Government on the subject of the Corn-laws might be
prejudeed by the partial disclosure of those intentions which he
had just made, the Noble Lord had the remedy in his own
hands. The ifoble Lord might, as he was in duty bound,
have taken an earlier period of informing them what was
the measure both in
principle and details which it was
the intention of the Government to propose on the sub-
ject of the Corn-laws.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Of
what avail was it to state that it was their intention to propose
a moderate fixed duty, when they afforded no means of as-
certaining what the amount of that fixed duty was to be ?
(Loud cheers.) Did not the Noble Lord see that the an-
nouncing the intention of the Government to propose a mode-
rate fixed duty without stating the amount, and leaving
the country in a state of uncertainty on the subject
for five weeks, was a proceeding that was both wan-
toa and unnecessary ?--(Loud cheers.) If at the com-
mencement of the Session the Noble Lord had intimated
his intention of bringing the Corn-laws under the considera •
tion of the House, he might have been justified in not entering
into details on the subject, but the Noble Lord had stated his
intention of moving for the Committee just before they entered
on the consideration of the Budget.—(cheers.) The duty to
be levied on foreign corn was to be considered as part of the
revenue of the country—(Cheering and counter cheering)
and the Chancellor of the Exchequer had taken credit for what
he had calculated might be produced by the duty to be im-
posed on the importation of foreign corn.—( Cheers. ) The
Noble Lord had declared that it was the intention of the Go-
vernment to propose a moderate fixed duty, without stating
what that moderate fixed duty was to be. The Chancellorof the
Exchequer had given some indication of what might be its probable
amount. The explanations of the Noble Lord only tended to csn-
fase the question. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said he anti-

cipated that the Customs revenue would amount to 22,000,0001.;
last year, it had only amounted to 21,700,000 e ; and he anti-
cipated a revenue of of 400,0001. from the duty on corn, but
1,000,0001 of the revenue of 1840 had been derived from the
duty on corn. Now, was this proposed revenue to be derived
in addition to the former revenue, or not? He, therefore, left
the country in uncertainty as to whether the revenue he ex-
pected to derive from the moderate fixed duty was 400,0001.,
or 1,600,004. In that article, which affected the food of the
whole country, was it to be supposed that attempts Would not
be made to obtain the amount-of that fixed duty ? What would
be the state of the country, while that state of uncertainty
continued ? It toilld affect the value of every species of
property eontlected with the sale of corn. The price of
estates, the relative situation of landlord and tenant, ell our
manufactures connected with the prednetien of corn—all would
be left in a state of utttertailtty In consequence of the unwar-
rantable dell ut the Noble Lord.—(Loud cheers.) If the
Noble Lord did not bring forward this question at an earlier
period of his own good will, he did not despair that the ex-
uression of the general sense of the country—( Cheers)—he
did not despair that that House would not permit the Noble Lord
—(Cheers, which drowned the conclusion of the sentence. )
That House would not consent to be made the instrument of
agitation throughout the country—( Loud cheers)—as it would
be if, after the announcement of the decision of the
Government, the consideration of the measure were to be
delayed for such a length of time.—( Cheers.) They should
also consider the particular time at which the announcement
had been made by the Government ( Cheers)—
immediately after the many signal defeats which
that Government had recently experienced—(Loud cheers)—
he could not believe that the country would acquiesce in a
postponement of the consideration of the question.—(Loud
cheers.) It was impossible to look at the financial position of
the country without the deepest anxiety.—(Cheers.) It
would be unwise and unworthy of any man who took a com-
prehensive view of our present condition to venture to give a
decided opinion as,to our financial condition. So far as the pro-
positions of the Government relating to the commerce of the
country went, he would take them into his serious
consideration, reserving to himself the liberty of deciding on
them, as hereafter he might see fit ; but when he considered
the insufficient and imperfect data furnished by the Right Hon.
Gentleman in his apology for a Budget (Cheers and
laughter)—when he considered the absence of all calculation
as to how the deficiency in the revenue was to be met—he
considered that it would be unworthy of himself to enter into
details on the subject. After a lapse of five years they found a de •
ficiency in their income, as compared with their expenditure,
of 7,575,000/. He saer the Chancellor of the Exchequer, fa-
miliar as he must be with the subject, was astonished at his
statement, but he would prove that such was the case. In
1838 the deficiency amounted to 1,422,000/. ; in 1839 to
430,000 e ; in 1840 to 1,457,0001. ; in 1841 to 1,851,0001. ;
and in 1842 the estimated deficiency amounted to 2,421,000/.,
making an aggregive of 7,575,0001. Now who was responsible
for this?—(Loud cheers.) The Ministry entered office pro-
fessing their main objects to be retrenchment and economy.
He asked that the result of this policy should be tested by
the expenditure. He asked for the accounts of their ad-
ministration, and those accounts showed that a deficiency of
7i millions was the result of their financial policy for five years.
—( Loud cheers). This was not the result of a failing revenue ;
en the contrary, the revenue had maintained itself. In
1836 it had amounted to 46,270,0001; they had
reduced the taxation in 1841 ; and for 1842 they
estimated the revenue at 48,310,0001. according
to the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer ; conse-
quently they had a surplus revenue of 2,410,0001. as compared
with 1836, and yet with this increased revenue the result was
a deficiency of seven millions and a half. The Hon. Member
for Kilkenny said they had voted for larger estimates.—
( Cheers.) No doubt they had, because they considered that
the position of the country absolutely required that the
expenditure should be increased. But was it they who
voted for that increase who were responsible, or those
whogavetheir unabated confidence to that Ministry by whose
policy the necessity for this increased expenditure had
been created ?—( Hear and cheers.) Would it not have
been perfectly competent for Mr. Fox to have supported the
increased estimates for 1796, and yet to have condemned the
line of policy by which the necessity for that increase had
been created ?—( Cheers.) It was perfectly consistent for him
to say such are the exigencies of the country that the public
safety demands that our army should be augmented to an
equality with that of other countries. He perfectly agreed
that it was not right to leave Canada or the northern frontier
of India unprotected, but he had a right to say that this in-
crease was the general scope and result of their financial po-
licy, and a Government which, after a lapse of five years, ex-
hibited as the result of their financial policy a deficiency of
seven and a half millions, was at least open to suspicion that
the economy and retrenchment which they had stated
on taking office to be the main object of their po-
licy had not been attained.—( Loud cheering.) But
supposed they had effected a saving to that extent, would they
not have taken credit to themselves for the results of their just
and !prudent policy ?—( Loud cheers)—and, when the reverse
happened to be the case, ought they not to be held responsible?
—(Cheers.) He believed that consideration for public safety
demanded an increase of expenditure, but he looked to the
results, and when he saw that with an increasing revenue
there was a deficiency of seven and a half millions in five
years, he thought he was entitled to express a doubt whether
such an Administration was entitled to take credit for retrench-
ment and economy.—(Cheers.) Let them consider their pre-
sent position there was a deficiency of 2,400,000/. in the
revenue for the past year. On one point he agreed with the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, that it was a disgrace to be in-
creasing our debt during a state of profound peace, and
that our revenue ought to be raised so as to meet
our expenditure. ( Hear, bear, hear.) He proposed
to raise 1,700,0001. by some means or other
how, he had afforded them no means of ascertaining.
He had observed that the example of the alteration in our
commercial policy might be beneficial, but they were then only
to consider it in a financial point of view, and suppose it should
not produce the effect anticipated by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, suppose it should not fill the coffers of the State, sup-
pose it should not produce the anticipated amount of revenue ?
—( Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman anticipated a revenue
of 50,000,000/., but the expenditure he anticipated amounted
to 50,731,000/., so that even if all his calculations should be
realized, there would be a deficiency of 731,000/. But the
Right. Hon. Gentleman said from the deficiency of 2,400,000/.
there were various deductions to be made. There was the
expen'e of the expedition to China, and the increase in the
Navy debt •, but making-a deduction on account of those
two items, there would still be upon the Right Hon Gentle-
man's own showing, a deficiency for the present year of 140,000/.
When the revolution in Canada first broke out he made the
same statement. He said that in a country with snch com-
plicated relations as this, calculations should be made for such
contingencies.—(Hear, hear.) The Chinese war had shewn
that these were possible events. The war in Afghanistan,
and the military operations in Syria had shown that
his caution was well founded.—( Hear, hear.) He would not
hazard an opinion as to what might be the effect of this
financial measure, for he felt too deeply the magnitude of the
interests involved in it, and the folly of pronouncing an irrevo-
cable opinion upon them.—(Cheers, and counter cheers.)
When the Right Hen. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer said that he would not to-night discuss the policy of
those measures, there was a sort of a cheer or a titter—( Cheers
and laughter)—which implied that when such magnificent
projects were introduced the House had nothing to do but to
agree with them. But it was to be remembered that those
very propositions respecting the sugar duties were last year
brought forward by the Honourable Member for Wigan.
That Hon. Gentleman last year moved that the duty on fo-
reign sugar should be reduced from 665. to 365. per cwt. ;
and the present proposition was to reduce it from 635. to 345.,
there being a difference of only 2s. per cwt.—( Cheers.) The
proposition of the Hon. Member for Wigan was rejected by
the large majority of 122 to 27, and the Right Hon. Gentle-
man the Chancellor of the Exchequer was in that majority.—
(Cheers.) He did not refer to this as the slightest reason for
not adopting the proposition this year, if circumstances re-
quired it. The Right Hon. Gentleman the President of the
Board of Trade well and moderately opposed the motion, say-
ing that he agreed with all the financial reasons of
the mover, but that he feared it would affect in-
juriously the interests of the sugar colonies, and encourage
the produce of slave-owning States.—(Hear, hear.) He did
not say that there was anything in that which should exclude
the Right Hon. Gentleman from re-considering the subject
(Hear, hear.) Nor would he go to the length (to which the
Right Hon. and Learned Member for the Tower Hamlets and
the Member for Dublin went) of saying that the alteration
ought not to he made under any circumstances, whilst it would
give encouragement to the slave-holding States. But he
thought that after the sacrifices which England had made to
put down slavery, that the objection to the reduction on that
ground was worthy of grave consideration.—(Hear, hear. )
With respect to the Corn-laws, he thought it was the
duty of the Right Hon. Gentleman to state explicitly
what were his intentions on that subject, as he had done on the
timber and sugar duties—and prevent the dreadful animosities,
to which the doubts that were left in the public mind must
give rise.—( Hear hear.) If the Right Hon. Gentleman re-
fused to explain his views to-night, it was his duty to take the
earliest opportunity of doing so.—( Much cheering.)
Lord J. RUSSELL did not blame the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman for declining to express an opinion on the propositions
of his Right Hon. Friend. Nothing could be more reasonable
than that he should take time to consider. Neither
would he complain that the Right Hon. Gentleman had re-
ferred te his usual book of consolation, Hansard's Parliamentary
reports.—(Laughter.) But nothing that had been said by the
Right Honourable Gentleman in any way affected the case of
the Government.—( Hear, hear.) Did the Right Honourable
Baronet find fault with the expenditure on the same grounds
as the Hon. Member for Kilkenny ?—(Cheers.) Not at all.
It would be strange if he did. For the chief topic of blame
with his party, with regard to the army and navy, and espe-
cially the navy, was that the estimates were not sufficient—
( Cheers.) He (Lord J. Russell) was ready to own that at
one time the naval stores were not sufficient. But when an
occasion came the ships were fitted out and manned and sent
to sea, with rapidity—(Cheers)—and without ostentation
or bustle—(Cheers)—so as to call for the admira-
tion of foreign nations, although those things were not
noticed by the Right Hon. Gentleman or those around him.—
(Cheers. ) With respect to the army also, it was made a matter
of complaint that the Government did not ask for money
enough.—(Hear, hear.) The Right lion. Baronet found
fault neither with the expenditure nor the policy of the Go-
vernment. He did not find fault with their- policy in Canada,
in China, or in the Levant.—( Cheers. ) There was no doubt
that the income in the last six years actually exceeded the ordi-
nary expenditure by 3,339,129/. He said that, looking to the
ordinary expenditure, and not to contingencies--(Cheers)—
he thought they were justified in maintaining the principle
enunciated by his Right Hon. Friend, that they should not
, allow the income to fall below the expenditure—to that princi-
ple they were determined to adhere. The Right Hon. Baronet
said that he (Lord John Russell) ought immediately to bring
forward the intention of the Government with respect to the
Corn-laws. Now, if he was to say that the Government held
the doctrine of a total repeal, then there might be room for
considerable agitation in the country. But, as they held the
principle of a fixed duty, he saw no reason to anticipate any
such disturbance of the public mind as the Right Ho-
nourable Baronet seemed to fear.--( Hear.) He did not
think that the proposition of the Government was liable to the
imputation thrown upon it by the Right Hon. Baronet. As
to the Corn-laws in general, every one knew that it had been
the subject of discussion for years—( Hear, hear)--it had con-
stantly been a topic of agitation. He had no doubt commer-
cial men would pay earnest attention to what might be the de-
cision of Parliament upon the subject ; but he could not con-
ceive that any agitation more than usual would follow the an-
nouncement he had made. He thought it was a matter of
duty to go on with many important Bills which were before
the House to forward them, rather than at once to come to adis-
cussion of the Corn-laws. The Right Honourable Baronet
might endeavour to crush the question by forcing on an
early discussion of the matter, but that was an attempt that
could not succeed. The question was one of too great im-
portance, and if that House were to deal unfairly by it, or re-
fused to discuss it upon fair terms, they would greatly aggra-
vate every objection held against these laws, and the question
would be forced upon them with increased strongth. What
he was anxious for was that the subject should be discussed
with temper and calmness.—( Hear, hear.) He was. sorry to
see the disposition shown on the other side of the Hou-e.—
(Cheers. ) He could not but say that the anger shown by the
Gentlemen opposite was, not because he had postponed the
question for a few weeks, but because it was entertained by
the Government at all._( Cheers.) But, be that as it might,
it would not alter the course which the duty of the Go-
vernment pointed out to them to pursue. —( Cheers. )
Mr. WAKLEY was not one of those who joined in the

exultation shown on his side of the HoUse, when the Right
Hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer opened his Bud g et. They
were told that next year there Na.s still to be a deficiency
of 2,400,000/. ; to make up this, 400,000/. was calculated upon
from some alteration of the Corn-laws, but were they
sure to
carry their measure? However, he did not think the people
the country would be satisfied with the statement. What
they wanted was a reduction of expenditure, without
which they could have no real relief. The school of adversity
taught some very useful lessons, and might he ask when the
new light broke in upon Ministers ?—( Cheers.) Was it since
last night?—( Loud Tory cheers.) the Noble Lord asked
for, and had obtained, an acknowledgment that he was actuated
by none but pure motives in bringing forward the question of
the Corn-laws. But if the Whig store-shop was run out, and
they were obliged to come to the Radical shop for their com-
modities—(Loud laughter s—they ought to have the manliness
to acknowledge their poverty, and recognise those from whom
they sought assistance. R hy, he would ask, was that the
peculiarly fit time? was it more fit than last year, or had it not
been for late events? and had the question been brought for-
ward by the representative of a large metropolitan borough,
would he not have been denominated a mischievous demagogue?

—(Loud laughter.) The Noble Lord had obtained from the
House an acknowledgment that he was actuated by the prin-
ciples of pure patriotism. He would, then, probably agree with
him that there might be more than one English Cato.—( Loud
laughter.) He had always advocated a change in the Corn-
laws—he had always thought them injurious to the best in-
terests of the country, but that question would not be taken
alone—it affected every interest in the country. It was to be
remembered that the farmer was a manufacturer, and that the

labourer was, in many cases, a most skilled artisan. The
manufacturers on his side of the House, then, must remember

that in any change they could not be allowed to retain the pro-
tection they enjoyed, as the farmer believed, with so much ad-
vantage. If both sides would take up the question, free
from all party motives—free from all factious or party
spirit the advantages that would result would be
incalculable ; but if a Corn-law agitation was to be
got up—if there were persons intending to get up such
an agitation for the mere purpose of obtaining a party
triumph—(Cries of " Oh, oh !")—thereby throwing the
country into a state of confusion, there was no term of re-
proach in the English language strong enough to be cast upon
him. He would entreat the Noble Lord so to modify the re-
solution he intended to propose, as to include and bring under
the consideration of the House the whole system of protective
duties. Would the Hon. Member for Manchester agree to

that proposition ? If the Noble Lord would manfully take
that course, he would raise himself to a high position in the
country ; if he confined himsel to the question of the Corn-
laws, he would do no good, and might do an immensity
of evil. _ _

Lord HOWICK was sorry that he did not see the Right
Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth in his place, because
he wished to convey to him the pleasure with which he
had deprecated in strong terms the agitation that
might be produced on the public mind, for the few weeks that
were to elapse before the public were informed what the
Government proposed should be the amount of duty to be
charged upon the importation of corn. His Noble Friend
said he intended to propose a moderate fixed duty. Nuw every
one could in his own mind come within a few shillings of what
that duty was to be. Now, if the Right Hon. Baronet had so
strong a sense of the evils resulting from the uncertainty of a
few shillings, he (Lord Howick) claimed his vote for the Go-
vernment on account of the evils and uncertainty of the
present Corn-law. Under that law the uncertainty was
not conffned to a few shillings—it was, whether there

would at any given future period be a neminal duty of Is.,
or such a duty as would act as an entire prohibition; neither
was it for two or three weeks, but for ever, at least, so long
. .

as the law remained in force, and by its means every inte--
rest in the country was deeply affected and exposed to that
uncertainty, the mischievous consequences of which the Right
Hon. Baronet had so well described. At the distance of a

few months, nay, even of a few weeks, who could say whe-
ther the duty on corn would be prohibitory, or merely no-
minal ?—(Cheers. ) The admissions made by the Right Hon.
Baronet enabled them to calculate with almost certainty
upon his support. (Laughter.) He ( Lord Howtek)
entirely concurred in what had fallen‘from the Hon. Member
who had last addressed the House—they must not confine
themselves to the question of the Corn-laws, that would be
imprudent, if not dangerous ; but he understood from what had
fallen from his friends in the Government, that they made the
Corn-laws only a part of an extended revision of the whole
protective system. If he understood what fell from the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, that was precisely the policy to be
pursued by the Government, and if it was steadily
followed out, he was fully of opinion that they
would not find it impossible to succeed.—(Hear, hear.)
He was the more convinced of this from the remarkable si-

lence on the other side upon the subject. It was natural the
Right Hon. Baronet should refuse to pledge himself on the
sugar duties, but this was not a question of one or two duties,
it was one of general revision of obnoxious duties.—( Hear. )
They must be aware that if not brought forward by the Govern-
ment it must have come under the consideration of the House.

He could not believe but Gentlemen opposite had given their
attention to the question of increa'ing existing burdens, or of
imposing new ones, and if so it was their duty to have stated
which plan ought to be adopted, and if they did object to the
policy of his Right Hon. Friend, they ought to have stated it to-
night.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He trusted the public opinion
would be too much opposed to the increase of fresh duties
to oppose the proposition of the Government. Having had
the misfortune to differ from the Government on other occa-
sions. it afforded him the greatest pleasure to be able to state
that to their financial policy, as developed that evening, he
gave his fullest support.—( Hear, hear.) It was a fixed prin-
ciple with him that they ought not to impose fresh burdens on
the people at present. The valuable information supplied
by the researches of his Hon. Friend beside him (Mr. Hume)
had, he thought, demonstrated the fact that the commercial
policy of this country might be revised with great advantage.
'fhe fact was, that measures must be taken to improve the pro-
ductive powers of this country—(Cheers)—and that could
only be done by a general system of availing ourselves of
all the natural advantages we possessed, and also of
those of the advantages of our neighbours. That was the
policy we must adopt If we would obviate the most serimis
evils. In every part of the world, in America, France, Spain,
and Germany, it was our example, and not our reasoning, that
was looked to.—( Hear, hear.) In negotiations with Spain
how often did we represent to her that her revenue had fallen
off, and that a modification of her duties would be advantage-
ous to herself and us, but when we ourselves were in a pre-
cisely similar situation, and additional sums were required for
the service of the country, and it was pointed out that they
might be raised by a modification of our taxes, if instead of
taking this course we imposed additional burdens upon a
people already too much depressed by taxation, we might
be assured that our attempts at negotiation would be treated as
mere attempts to delude and deceive.—( Hear, hear.) He
would conclude by expressing his most earnest hope that the
subject would be dealt with without reference to party inte-
rests and animosities, but that all interests, manufacturing
and commercial, would consider what was required for the
common benefit of themselves and their country.—(Cheers. )
Mr. MARK PHILLIPS said he thought the speech of the
Noble Lord (Lord Howick) was calculated to produce a great
and good impression in the country as to the measures pro-
posed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer —( Hear, hear.)
The Honourable Member for Finsbury had made an appeal
to him, and seemed to think that the manufacturers de-
sired to maintain a system of protection. He begged to
assure the Hon. Member that there was no such desire in the
minds of his constituents, and if the Hon. Member had been in
his place he would have known it, for he (Mr. M. Phillips) had
that evening presented a petition from the Cham-
ber of Commerce at Manchester, wherein they repudiated the
idea that they sought any protective duties for the manufac-
tures in which they were personally interested.—( Hear, hear. )
He entered therefore into the consideration of the question with
fair hands. He could not help congratulating the House and
the country that the question of the Corn-laws was about to
emanate from its right place—namely, from her Majesty's Go-
vernment—( Cheers)—for he did not hesitate to say that
the time was come when that question could no longer
be postponed if this country was to maintain her po •
sition with reference to other countries. (Hear, hear,
and cheers.) He had never known so much depres-
sion as existed at present among our manufacturers. It
had now attained this point, that having remained for three
years in anxious expectation of some change for the better,
they were suffering the deepest and most bitter disappointment;
and a gentleman of Conservative opinions stated to him on the
Manchester Exchange last week, that he was reduced to that
position, that, although he had embarked 17,0001. of capital
in mills and machinery, if he wished to raise a shilling upon the
property in the market, he should not be able to do so.
—(Hear, hear.) This gentleman might have dealt
somewhat in hyperbole, but he was credibly informed
that the only reason many manufacturers continued working
their machinery, was the number of hands employed by it.
But for this many of them would have closed their mills for
ever. With reference to our foreign trade it appeared to him
that for several years it had been getting worse and worse. We
had been forced by increased machinery and population to in-
crease our products ; but in what manner were we compelled to
dispose of them? We were obliged to allow longer credit, and
that to some of the most despotic and revolutionary
Governments.—(Hear, hear.) At the present time they
were obliged to give twelve months credit in Russia in order
to dispose of the produce of Lancashire. This was not a safe
system of policy, and it evidently could not be continued any
longer.—( Hear, hear.) With reference to the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, he could only say that he had his (Mr. M.
Phillips') most cordialconcurrence, and that he hailed the idea
of his coming forward in the manner he had done, and
instead of imposing fresh burdens, to try whether an alteration
could not be made in our financial regulations, and thus relieve
the industry of the country. Looking at the instances in
which this policy had been carried out, he saw that
it was eminently successful, and that which had been
practically successful, could not be considered as chimerical.—
(Cheers.) His impression was that the revenue that would
result from the alteration of the sugar duties had been under-
stated —( Hear, hear.) The position of our foreign trade was
a most anomalous one. In 1833 not less than thirty-three or
thirty-five vessels were engaged in the trade from Liverpool to
Brazil, and out of that number, such was the state of our fiscal
regulations, that not more than two returned with cargoes to
this country. He looked to the consumer, as if no party
but a British subject would be a sufferer if he rejected
the boon so long withheld. With reference to the expenses
said to have been incurred during the administration of the
Government, and particularly that relating to our naval force,
he begged to call the attention of the House to what had ren-
dered it necessary. Was it not the conduct of those Gentle-
men who, when the Navy Estimates were under considera-
tion, had found it necessary to depreciate our navy in the eyes
of foreign countries ?—( Cheers.) He hoped that it would
teach them more discretion, sinee they found such proceedings
must be ultimately paid for.— (Hear, hear.) To conclude,
those, whom he had the honour to represent, had sought relief
in a variety of forms, and had impressed upon him the impor-
tance of emigration; but before he supported such a proposi-
tion, he should wish to see the result of the present intention
of the Government to do justice, and which, if fairly carried
into effect, he was persuaded would be followed by the benefi-
cial effects that were so much required.—(Cheers.)
Mr. AARON CHAPMAN objeCted to the measure pro-
posed to be brought forward by the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer. The proposition respecting the timber duties would, he
conceived, if carried into effect, be attended with the most
ruinous consequences to the maritime and commercial interest of
the country, and if so would place in jeopardy the interests
of the navy.
Mr. LABOUCHERE did not rise to address at any
length observations on any of those great questions which had
been announced to the House by his Right lkn. Friend the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, because he (Mr. Laboucherc)
was aware that there would be future opportunities of discuss-
ing each of those questions with the deliberation to which
they were entitled, inasmuch as they were the three most
important questions connected with the trade and revenue
of this country.—(Hear, hear.) But some remarks of
a general nature had been made in the course of the debate
which made him ask for the indulgence of the Committee for a
few moments. His Noble Friend the Member for Northum-
berland had asked the Government whether they were about to
bring forward the question of the Corn-laws as an isolated
question, or as one connected with some general principle which
they were disposed to recommend for general adoption by that
House and the country. He (Mr. L.) had no difficulty in
giving a distinct answer to that question. He thought it was
clearly stated by his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the
Exchequer that the Government, in proposing to the Howe to
reduce the duty upon corn, did not do so in reference to that
one question merely, however important it might be, but did so
inasmuch as they cams to the conclusion that it was necessary for