The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-19 00:00:00

ment, and of which I have sent him a copy, is to this
effect:—l may first state that there is a rumour preva-
lent in the city of London that an arrangement has been
made between the Government and the Wesleyan -Com-
mitte, for the purpose of setting aside the opposition which
s intended to be made by the Wesleyans to the grant
for the Government scheme of education. I think that
the best mode in which I can bring the question before
the House, is to read a statement which appears in a
paper supported by the Wesleyans, and which is to this
effect. On account of an important communication from
high sources expressing a desire, without any solicita-
tion on our part, to enter into a negotiation with
regard to this scheme, we have judged it ex-
pedient to direct a Committee, in order that no misun-
derstaudiag may take place on either side, to enter into
a communication with the Government with regard to
the objections felt by the Wesleyans to the Minutes of
Council, and on which we have stated, in strong
but respectful language, our aversion to them.
An [official reply has been received, placing
the present measure in- a new light altogether,
and which, we are bound to say, removes in
a great degree some of the most gave and insuperable
objections which, as consistent Wesleyans, the Commit-
tees have urged. Now the statement made is this, and
I wish to call the attention of the Noble Lord and th,
House to it. Gfficial but private overtures have bee►,
made to the Wesleyans in London, offeiiug these
concessions—first, that the Government exhibition
shall be made only to oshools which use thu
authorised version of the Scriptures; next that the
Wesleyans be permitted to use their own catechiser,
in schools deveted to the use of the Wesleyans, and that
the instructors should be of the Wesleyan persuasion
The question I have to put to the Government is this,
first, whether this negociation has been made to the
Wesleyans by Government, or any person authorised by
the Government, and if such concessions are to be
made, whether the Roman Catholics are to have the like
privilege?

, I Lord JOHN RUSSELL said—l must say, in the
first place, in answer to the question of the Hon.
Member, that the communication with -the Wesleyan
body was, as far as I know, not begun by any person
authorised on the part of the Government. A Noble
Friend of mine, whose name (although I have no
authority to mention it) I may state to the House
—I mean Lord Ashley—understood from some of
the Wesleyan body that they were about to enter into
resolutions describing, the character of the minutes
in a way , which was thought by him not appli-
cable to them.- He told them that they' had better wait
until he should eeninitthieate with Lord LansdoWne on
the subject, and.thui through the secretary of the, com-
mittee of council get an explanation on the .sub-
ject. The secretary of the committee came to Lord
Lansdowne and myself, and asked our intentions,
on the subject, we said. that we should have no hesitation
in answering any questions which the Wesleyans might
choose to put, and which might lead to a correct expla-
nation on the subject. I do not know that any blame
can be attached to us in consequence.—(Loud cheering.)
The first question was, whether any person, holding-
ecclesiastical functions would be eligible to fill the
office of pupil teachers, and the answer we made
was, that they would not be eligible as pupil teachers.
—(Loud cheers.) The next question was, whether the
authorised version of the Scriptures would be used in
schools ? On this subject, the resolution of the Com-
mitte, dated the 3d December, 1839, in which reference
was made to a previous resolution, said that the condi-
tion on which they would give assistance to schools
would be that a daily portion of the Scrip-
tures should form a portion of the usual exercise
to the classes. The words " the daily reading of a por-
tion of the Scriptures," was understood to mean the
authorised version of the Scriptures, and in the same
report of 1839, it was stated that the intention of the
Committee with respect to the children of Roman
Catholics, was that the Duoay version of the Bible should
be allowed. The next question was, whether the in-
spectors of the Wesleyan school might be appointed not as
from the Wesleyan body, but with their concurrence ?
The Hon. Gentleman stated that they had hitherto re-
ceived assistance through the British and Foreign
School Society, and they said that it would be far more
agreeable to their feelings and the constitution
of their Society if the Committee on educa-
tion would recognise the Wesleyan body directly.
I admit that, according to that arrangement, they were
not parties which, according •to the minute, were
entitled to assistance from the grant. With re-
gard to the exclusion of the Roman Catholics
from the grant, it was no new question.
Ever since 1839 such has been the policies, and I do
not know of any grant having been made to Roman
Catholic schools exclusively as such. The question is,
therefore, left as before as far as Roman Catholics are
concerned. When the Roman Catholic Bishops came to
the Government and ask for assistance from the Go-
vernment grant it will be time enough to give attention
to the matter. At present there was considerable diffi-
culty in working such a grant on account of many
of the teachers in Roman Catholic schools being in holy
orders, and might be supposed to use their functions as
teachers to proselitize their pupils. With regard to the
grant for the present year, it will the this year the same
as the Nit, viz., 100,000/., and it will be applied as before.
GOVERNMENT PLAN OF EDUCATION.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL then proceeded to the order
of the day. He said—Sir, I will now proceed to
propose to read the order of the day with
the view of proposing in, Committee a 'resolu-
tion for education.. In doing so, the House, I
trust, will bear with me,.and give me its indulgence,
while I endeavour to clear away some of• the exaggera-
tion with which it has been accompanied.—(Hear,
hear.) And in connexion with which Honour-
able Members have been misrepresented and
attacked in no ordinary manner, and called to give ac-
count of their conduct at public meetings and elsewhere.
It is done by those who say they come to protest against
an irresponsible power, it is done by those who endeavour
to show that the body who will have the management of
this grant is unconstitutional, and that the grant made
from y ear to year—made by this House—placed in the
hands of the Ministers of the Crown, renewable at the
pleasure of the Sovereie6n, and who cannot hold office
any longer than they have the support of this House;
that such a mode of devoting money to the education
of the people was an unconstitutional mode
of proceeding. Why, Sir, talk of respectability
how much more must we be responsible, hold-
ing this power upon such a tenure, than those
who assemble together from various parts of the coun-
try, not responsible to any persons, and who have told
Hon. Members of this House that they will raise such
opposition at a future election, that they shall no longer
have the honour of a seat in that House if they decide
according to their free and impartial judgment upon the
questions now to be brought before you. I trust, sir,
entirely to the judgment and impartiality of this House,
and that they will not allow that these attempts at
exaggeration and misrepresentation shall hide from them
the real facts of the case.—(Bear, hear.) Sir, it
is well known that the education of the people
—of the working classes especially—forms no
part of the duty, eitker of the Government or, naturally
speaking. of the Church of this country. The whole
cost
of education has been left, of late years, to volun-
tary efforts. - In the year 1784, a person of the
name of Raikes first started subscriptions for
the purpose of establishing Sunday schools, and
was the means of diffusing a great amount of
education among the younger portion of the community.
In the beginning of this ,century, when Mr, Lancaster
came to this country, it was entirely by the efforts of in-
dividuals that the British and Foreign School
Society was established, altogether unaided by any
assistance from the friends of the Government.
So likewise when these schools were succeeded by the
National Schools upon the plan of Dr. Bell. Although
the clergy took aAreat part in the establishment of these
schools, it was done entirely by the money of the indi-
viduals among the clergy and the laity ; and
was in no way countenanced by the State. In th year
1832, I think a vote was ;proposed in this House, of a
very limited amount, as it did not exceed 20,0001., for the
purposes of aiding in the education of the working
classes. That sum was placed under the direction of
the Treasury, and was stated to be intended for this
purpose. I have :ineutioned_ the National Society,
which was composed of members of the Church
of England, , and 'by the British and Foreign
School Society, which had no other rule than this—
have the Scriptures read daily in the schools connected.
with that society, which was constituted, not of Church-
men Only; but of Churchnien and Protestant Dissen-
ters. Sir the matter coptipued in this shape till
1839, w‘ti` ;it wag proposed -to fern) a - Clom.l
mittee of :the Council •;
_.titgel that the sums which
had hitherto been granted by the
l henceforthTreeeur
to the different educational societies, alio?d
pass through thecommittee of the Council, and that that
Commitee instead of the whole Council,
whoheiege
a large body, like the'Treasury, was occupied with
other concerns, should Tormea committee of Conseil, and
that that committee, by th. n direction of hervelllteadjestyte,
expressly de
should have its a
this particular
• subject.ttetaeThe Lord President of
the Council as
p d at the head of that
Committee, an taken- the charge at all
was
he 'lheceas
times; whether under the
present Government. then Government, the late
Government, or under the
fLEET SPEAKING.]

TIIE JUDGES AND CORPORATION AT ST. PAUL'S.—
Yesterday being the first Sunday in term, the judges and
civic corporation went in state to St. Paul's Cathedral,
where they attended Divine service. There were present
Lord Denman, Sir Thomas Wilde, Lord Chief Justice of the
Court of Common Pleas; Mr. Baron Parke, Mr. Baron Al-
derson, Mr. Justice Patteson, Mr. Baron Rolfe, Mr. Justice
Cresswell, Mr. Justice Vaughan Williams, Mr. Sergeant
Wilkins, Mr. Sergeant Chadwick Jones, Mr. Sergean Man-
ning, the Lord Mayor (with his chaplain, the Rev. IL E. C.
Cobden, M.A.), Alderman Farebrother, Alderman Sir Chap-
man Marshall, Alderman Kelly, Alderman Hughes Hughes,
Alderman Farncombe, Alderman and Sheriff Challis, Mr.
Sheriff Kennard, the Recorder, Mr. Commissioner Bullock,
and a large number of members of the Common Council ; the
Lord Bishop of London, the Lord Bishop of Llandaff (Dean
of St. Paul's), the Lord Bishop of Oxford, the Venerable
William Hale Hale, M.A., Archdeacon of London ; the
Venerable Archdeacon R. Wilberforce, the Honourable and
Rev. H. Montague Villiers, M.A., Rector of St. George's,
Bloomsbury, and Canon Residentiary of St. Paul's; the Rev.
James Ended Tyler, 8.D., Rector of St. Giles's and Canon
Residentiary of St. Paul's; the Rev. 'P. Boyle Murray; the
Rev. 11. Browne; the Rev. W. J. Hall, and several other
clergymen in their robes. Full choral service was per-
formed, and a sermon preached by the Lord Bishop of Lon-
don, who selected for his text the tenth verse of the second
chapter of the general epistle by St. James—" Whoever
keepeth the whole law, and yet offendeth in one point is
guilty of all." The Right Rev. Prelate dwelt on the nature
of sin, exposed the destination drawn by the Roman Catholic
Church between moral and venial sine, and impressively set
forth the efficacy of true repentance. At the close of the
sermon' the procession. leftr-the Wheal' _ia the order in
which it h&4 'Morel