The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-05 00:00:00

TEN HOURS' BILL.

Lord Jourz M:timpns WAKLEY presented
petitions from Huddersfield and other places in favour of
a Ten HoUrs' Bill.
HARBOUR `CONSERVANCY.

Sir R. FERGUSON presented a petition from Lon-
donderry for the repeal• of the- Harbour Conservancy
Act.

• POOR REMOVAL ACT.
Mr. B. DENISON premntedle petition from Doncas-
er against the Poor Aemoval Net.,
Colonel T. WOOD piesented.lt, similar petition from
he Bradford 'Non.

TAXES,..
Mr. WAKLEY„presented a.petition from a police-
man named Webb,..stating that ;he. had, unfortunately
for himself and his creditors, been sixteen years in debt,
but that during the whole tinge he had been paying in-
direct taxes, and during the last five years direct taxes.
He praysid that he and other Englishmen who were
in debt should be relieved from taxation. He prayed
the House to take the sul*ctinto'consideration, and be.
lieved that the House, would grant his petition.

TEN HOUitS? BILL.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL presented petitions
from several places in favour. of • the Ten Hours' Bill.
THE:RAJA OF SATTARA. -
Sir DE LACY t VANS prientkd a petition from a
public meeting of the inhabitants of the city of West-
minster, praying for an inquiry,itito the circumstances
which had led to 'the dethronement of the Raja of
Sattara. •

-------
IMPORTATION OF CORN.
Dr. BOWRING rose to call the attention of the Noble
Lord, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs to the report,
that a qtantity of corn bound for this country had been
detained at Ancona by au ordor, of the Pope.
CRACOW. _ _

Mr. HUME- gave notice of his intention to bring
under th 4 consider.ation of the House, on an early day,
the recent proceedings relating to the suppression of the
republic of Cracow.
THE WINDOW-TAX.

Lord DUNCAN gave notice that he would, on an
early day, bring forward a motion for the repeal of the
window-tax. - '• -

AMENDMENT OF . THE ,REFORM ACT.
Mr. T: S. DirNdONIBE postponed his motion for
leave to hring in a f ill to repeal *the rate-paying clauses
Oof the Reform A till that day fortnight.
AMENDMENT OF RAILWAY ACTS.

Mr. STRUTT gave notice that, on Tuesday next, he
would move for.leave to hring--in a Bill to amend the
existing laws relating to railways.
TAX ON ABSENTEES.

Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN postponed till that day fort-
night his motion relating tc,o an ithsentee tax for Ireland.

IRISH IijSTRESS.

Mr. DANIEL O'dA.LL4OIIA.N presented a petition
from the Corporation of,,Cerk;:praying the House to
adopt some speedy measures in order to stop the spread
of disease in Ireland, consequent upon the distress of
that country. • •
ENFRANGHISEMENT OF COPYHOLDS.
Mr. AGLIONBX wished-to ask the Noble Lord at the
head of the Government whether he would allow him,
so soon as the present press of Irish business was over,
to ask him what course the Government meant to
pursue with respect to the enfranchisement of copyholds,
and whether it was the intention of the Government to
carry into effect the recommendation of the Select Com-
mittee, that under certain regulations the enfranchise-
ment of copyhOlds•shmild 'be rendered compulsory?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he would be quite
ready to'answer any. question of the Hon. Member upon
the subject next week.
Mr. AGLIONBY said he would take the opportunity
next week of putting a question upon the subject.
IRISH COLLEGES.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN stated that, upon an early
day, he ssould ask the Noble L'ord at the head of the
Governdlent whatOotirsethey had taken, or intended to
take, upon; the subject Of Irish colleges. He believed,
that at eitesent,-the prellidiniry-wdrks had had not even
commenced. 7 '
Lord LOHN RUSSELL, said the subject had occu-
pied considerable attention on the part of the Govern-
ment. His Hon. Friend the Secretary for Ireland had
devoted t onsidereble time to, the consideration of the
subject. He (Lord J. Rusiell) hoped that the difficulties
which 14tihtoottin'thd way' of tlie progress of the col-
leges would be shprtly..temoved. He could not
at preseit state the .arraii,;eineiats which had been
made, as • they Were not yet completed. When
however,,tbey were rfinally.:resolved upon, he would be
ready to answer any, questiVa of- :the Hon. Member.
CHARITABLE TRUSTS.
- - -

Mr. HUME said that,4cf-tnortow. he would ask the
Noble Loyd at the.head of.tbe3GrOi•ernment, what course
the Government intended to juirSue with respect to a
Bill for tale reg4l4tiioii .if
TEN. notws-
Mr. BtßNAL.:presentecr V..p.egtion in favour of the
Ten Hours' . . .
Pool. ;.RtgOVAt,BILL.

Mr. BANKES. wished a replY. to .the following ques-
tion from the Attorney-Gentral.;,r-Whether he had any
objection"to produce the opinion 'which he gave to the
Poor-law Commissioners:on- Ilia- -subject of the Poor
Removall'Aill of last session ?.
*
The ATTORNFIXIQEIc/tßAll,felt indebted to his
Hon. Frttold foe haviti AP iiiin-'notice of the question
which be incerid,ii. to 1:44,''.1K 46'-far as he was per-
sonally c.ohcerui 0, he 4.4104i1f have- no objection, it he
had the option' ev-pro‘inbe-if. It `vas not in his posses-
sion, and ft, could. not. furnish .hint with the purport of
it from fecollectioh.' -Ile believ6a, however, it was not
the practice in that Houee,.o7.olWwhere, to call for the
productie of the, epi4ts,Of...9Ounsel.—(Hear, hear,
from Sir James 'Graham:)' lie had no control over
the opinion after it war, gfitem-ralear, hear.)
Mr. BANKES then, „gave Totice that, to-morrow, he
should move for the pradtMtioh -Of the opinion of the
Poor-law Commissioner is 'whose possession it was.
',-, .. RAILWAYS IN IRELAND.
Lord qEORG.E .I,3ENTI,NCK., . in rising to move for
.. .
leave to bring in a .Bill to stimulate the prompt and
pro-
fitable eiiiployrisent -of- th•arople by the encouragement
of railwv''s-in Ireland said,, Wel 'although he had often
experienced theundeserved and kind encouragement of
that Ilobie on,- fottAro4asii.)itir, ' still he had never
felt that so nriich nt6(-kd it its on the present occa-
sion, wkten, for the firs t;ti.ine,-,11; was going to introduce
a
denlepelYsucreou'ciearnvved. hicll
Ikttetiiiivtie
u6rteisit)satohf hfisltcaonuy want o
ntryweref
confide* in the.inty in-sie:lntkof etheemeasure which
he was going to. introdncr to.
bad the'lillexreOnfiderii;!„.but 4
,thedlouse, for in that he
that thie. reeblebE:A _was because he feared
r "'"the 'Wcivocate should mar
a Measure'
1114 :*tlet'es3 --.{)fc: which must mainly
sure vOlifh . fiaa. been
m:ecOil
depend "; on
i4s -Pra ot!ctil . machinery a mea-
sure --with careful
and anxious solicitude .byto,
tneiiiivStiapbeereionr
cinotniintyetedlmlebecynt
to hinrielf,l--a.hleasnit'Atteh' hafi'.been prepared b
the value c.lfvwhheloisi%,ti;i:ied,,thwihlv. .u.
o' n. Friend the Lord
Mt.: /"'..‘,.tht;. , Ste henson, and Mr.
. p
Mayor of York, 'antiLaing ,had , dexoted Alai- rime
preparation of •this pleasure, -lie,thought the House
would think with him that thbriliad been the soundest
.. . .
and most powerful tiptleks'CaUcliiig' applied to the consi-
deration of this qiieS-fi6n;l:ifeetiii:g,railways in Ireland ;
but wile he..,sod that ~.his.,4-lonourable Friends
were entitled to ail.theszpraise -and all the merits that
might bit iOund in the,meaoure,„'lte4ould add that, if on
ti-s contntry, there was that in.; its Tr.nciples which was
hostile ~ the coitstitutievr Of =,-.4hii, country—if there
was anylhing iii its details wiki•zh' was injurious to the
industry o' the country •-••-irib-' tinet,:stire was so had that
it was v.tot-enti'llevl-r-vt-n -to n 'boa:1114; in that Hon. e—if
it deserved to be Con,it'lntle':i *Ter lie would admit, that
tor ail tha't'Was bad in 4.'...174,eip1es he alone was re-
sponsible. ,It was his priviieg,•,.o. loader of the party
with which he •waS. .cOunected," to claim for himself
. ...

mow.+. t. ~ ..~-`. _. ._~ ~..,..—. ~. ~. , a..

the right to bear the exclusive blame and the whole re-
sponsili ity of it. It was net his intention to mike any
very leggthened preface, or to enter into a geberel dis-
cussion as regarded the state and condition of It eland ;
suffice it for him that there was a great class at that
moment in that country, amounting to 500,000 able-
bodied persons, existing on the funds of the State ;
there were 500,000 able-bodied persons, com-
manded by a staff of 11,589 persons and
employed upon works which had been variously de-
scribed as works worse than useless; by the yeomanry
of Ulster, as works producing no public good ; and by
the Government inspector himself, as works which could
answer no other principle but to employ the people.
It was true that a great calamity was over-
coming Ireland, but at the same time he could
not look with anything like despondency upon the pre-
sent state of the country. In former times this had
risen fions difficulties heavier than these, and they ought
not to be appalled at the present calamity. In a period
of war they were enabled t'.) expend upon an average
of forty years one hundred and three millions a year ;
and they ought not to be doe nheartecl at having to pro-
vide for a deficiency which was estimated at ten mil-
lions. —(Hear, hear.) He expected with confident hope
that good would arise wet of the evil ; and, so far from
lying down and weeping over their misfortunes, like
children lost in a wood, they ought to look
the difficulties fairly in the face, and be resolved and de-
termined to overcome them. He could not forget that
England had had her bad days as well as Ireland ; that
they had known the time when the counties of England
were ravaged by the fires of incendiaries ; that they had
seen England in a time when the Sovereign dare not go
to his own city of London. He could not forget, that
in later times, so little while ago as the year 1842, the
parish rates of England supported 1,437,000 persons,
of whom no less than 83,000fwere young, able-
bodied men, who were actually confined within
the walls of the workhouse, and 47,000 able-
bodied labourers were sustained by the parish.
Well, then, it appeared to him that when they came to
estimate the situation of Ireland, and compare it with
that of England, there was not so great a difference be-
tween Ireland at the present time and Eng-
land in 1842, and they should not despair
of overcoming their difficulties. The years
1841 and 1842, then, being periods of great
distress and great difficulty, what had occurred to
change the face of affairs since theta in this country—to
prevent Government from meeting the distress as then,
and restoring the kingdom to the most prosperous
and affluent condition that ever was known? He was
aware that there were many who ascribed all this im-
provement and prosperity to the operation of those
measures of free trade which were edmmenced in 1842;
and that, by the reduction of one-sixteenth of a penny
the introduction of some tons of sugar, and the free
admission of feathers was the sole cause of the
prosperity which they were now enjoying. But he
for one was more disposed to ascribe it to
the railway enterprise which arose about that
period of their history. 'When they recollected
that in the last three or four years about thirteen millions
had been spent in the construction of railways, and
besides, as he could state on the authority of the reports
of the Committees of that House, that 200,000 able-
bodied labourers received employment at twenty-two
shillings a week, which bad been culled from the
workhouses, and parishes—he thought he had certainly
discovered the more correct cause for the change which
had come over the circumstances of this country.
But this he might say, that there had been no inquiry
by Parliament made in which the result has not been the
recommendation that the difficulties in Ireland should
be sought to be overcome by the stimulation of
the employment of the people.—(Hear, hear.) In
the year 1836 there was a commission appointed
by her Majesty's Government to inquire into the advan-
tages of a system of railway communication in Ireland.
The result of that inquiry, made by those able commis-
sioner, was a report recommending theta system of rail-
ways should be carried out, and that it should be done
by the assistance of the Government—(Herr, hear.)
He would not tire the House by travelling over the
beaten ground or repeating the reasons on which that
able Report was made, er inform it of the perfect success
which had attended every grant by Parliament for
the. improvement of roads in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.)
That report was followed up by another—the report of
Lord Devon's Commission, which stated that it was the
opinion 'of the c ,mtnissioners that assistance by
way of loan from Government for railways was the
best means for finding employment for the people.
This led him to the consideration of the
existing state of railway enterprise in Ireland, and he
found that there had been passed Acts of Parliament
for 1,522 miles of railway, and although some of these
Acts have passed so long since as eleven years ago, 123
miles of railway have alone been completed, and
164 more nre only in course of completion in the present
year. This must prove to the House that there is
some weakness, some debility in Ireland, which
prevents them from carrying out those enterprises
which in England and Scotland caused the completion
of 2,600 voiles of railway, and had caused new Acts to
be passed for 4,600 miles more. Was it the circumstances
of Ireland, or the state of the population, which made
hers a condition not likely to prove advantageous to
railway speculators?—far from it. A report for which
he was indebted to Mr. Stephenson, said that the popu-
lation of Ireland and the population of England and
Wales were, as nearly as possible, on a par. In Eng-
land it appeared, taking the census of the
year 1841, there are, for every two acres and a bit,
one individual of population, whilst in Ireland
the population amounts to one for every 21
acres ; and in that comparison, let him tell the House,
there were 7,000 acres of waste bogs, and also large
quantities of water in Ireland, taken into consideration,
and therefore, if they were to compare the cultivated
acres of England and Wales with the cultivated acres of
Ireland, they would find that the balance was in favour
of that conntry, and that Ireland was more densely in
habited than England and Wales. Now, perhaps, they
would tell him that this might be a very good argument,
as far as population was concerned, but what
was the use of the population if they had no
money to pay for their conveyances by railivay.
His Right Honourable Friend who sat beside
him would tell them, that in all railway ;speculations
population I was held to be the first element, of success ;
and if they told him that the population. of Ireland
were incapable of travelling from want of! means, he
must answer them with the fact that it was not
so.—(A laugh.) For by a return which ht had there,
and for which he was indebted to tht' industry
of Mr. Laing, he found by comparison that the number
of passengers who travelled by the Irish railways, as
compared with the number of those who travelled
either by the English or Scotch railways, far exceeded
them in number. The House might be surprised, but
the fact was that whilst on the Scotch and En glish rail-
ways the average number of passengers travelling
every month was about 11,800, on a a ailway in
Ulster the number travelling was no less tha u 21,700,
and on the Drogheda and Dublin Railway tti e number
of passengers was 18,000 per mile. But he v, ould take
these two lines which were completed, one of which, the
Ulster Railway, might be taken in Ireland as tl t e London
and Birmingham of England, and hes would
compare the number of their passengqrs with
that of the London and Birmingham line. I the two
former the number of passengers per mile, for one
year, was 1,111,000, and by the latter, 14108,000,
the former being only fifty-six miles i e length,
while the latter was double that distance.
This he thought gave a flat denial to the aril aliment of
Irish railways being a ruinous speculation. :'Lle might
be asked, then, why it was that speculator did not
come into the market to stimulate railway
enterprise? He was unable to answer the
question, but the fact was as he stated. There was a
feeling of distrust and ignorance, he feared, as to the
condition of the country, which prevented English
capital from being embarked in these undern :ing,s. Of
the Great Southern and Western Railway IS 6 miles had
been completed, and as yet it had only opened for
passengers. Of the North British Railway and its
branches 72 miles had been cotnplet ed, which
were partially opened for traffic as well as passengers.
Well, the result was, that the traffic per R eek of the
Great Southern and Western Railway in an a last week
was 1,028/. on 56 miles of railway, while on the North
13riti.h Railway, which cost 26.3001 per mi le, against
15.0001. per mile, the cost of the Great Sot ahem .Ind
Western Railway, the amount of traffic exc retied that
of the Great Southern and Western only by
339/. per week. Yet so opposed to all principles
of common sense were the feelings of capitalists
as regarded public works in Ireland, that the
Great Southern and Western, which was u adoubtedly
the most profitable concern, was at 21 percer it. discount
in the money market, while the worst rail w: tys were at
40 per cent. premium.—(Hear, hear.) We I), he had
shown that there was a something of fashion, and some-
thing in want of confidence, n hich occasior d the un-
willingness of the English capitalists to 'vest their
moneys in Irish railways. But if they look ed to this
part of the question, they must recollect the most of
the railway proprietors in Ireland were the landlords and
tenants in that country, and that the very cab nity which
now impoverished and afflicted that country fu a mished the
very reason why those proprietors should n it be able
to meet their calls; and the consequence watt that *me
of the best speculations in Ireland were no, .v What was
called "stuck fast" for want of money. He would take
the railways in the southern part of Irelar id, and read
from a report
.which he bad received fro en two gen
tiemen, t K.wo enneerE, who had been travellir tg in Ireland
for the purpose of this very question of In sh railways.
They said that one of the railways, of whi eh Cork-was
one of the termini, and which was sixty-fiv e miles long,
would be commenced when they received fir o as to enable
them to go on with it. They stated that the branch to
Limerick, which was twenty-five miles long, -‘ would be be-
gunthe opening of the w
entity
which when the necessaryhole
line
edtso wTeipropeorbartayiwn, eodt;idanddeptehnadt
Junc-
tion, which was forfy-
use 'was al%o stopped for rant of
had passed the HO ,
also upon the supply
money. T ofiffetil69XlYea: irnrhleenKgtihik,
'was stopped for a
the LimeriLek and
similar reason. it, Plea tort(mi of
The COrk and
Waterford was similarly ciruttinstanced ; a odwaisrt
.ea Vat Cork
and Bandon; Fermoy
Wale rford.
itkwas with the Cork a n., t d
This made in the whole ,Ilt9l- miles of len way s • sppe.
in Ireland for th"w n , ft4bf funds. On the Dublin
e
and Mullingar 3,011 ptriln
s: were emPlol but if
the company had mores money, a greetfer nu laber
might be put this
money The reason
money was not ftirtlieinniolOht§,,c apitalistli in
because
this country mistru-sted and the propositxon
he had to make was that Government shoal 'd do' away
with that mistrust. The proposition he had to make to
the House was :this: that for every 100/. p roperly ex-
pended upon railways, Government should guarantee
three and a half per cent. This was less than
had heretofore been paid for money, at id no doubt
he sh :uld be met with arguments again' ,t the insuffi-
ciency of the security, but with the indulgence ot. the
House he should be able to show that wit ,h the restric-
tious he should propose the security we ,old be amply