The Sun.
London, England, 1823-07-02 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

lAir. At TA111.40,11 presented a Petition from the Ship.
imners of South shields ligainst.the reciprocity ofl/uties
Mr. H TX3,FI.4AD presented, a similar Petition from the
Isl4-wriglits on the River Thames. •
PENSION TO VISCOUNT Kr, VINCENT.
On the xpotinii of the. QUANCELLOIt of. the E'scitgQP,Klit
itbereP9rt,of the Col-011140 e appniuted to Nasidprlis 44jiloty'e.
Illi,essage relative to, the pension or Viscount Vitioo. Wfts,
,rectived and'a.llill was ordered to 114 prepared accordingly.
' REFORM.
I WII I TR.RE."4) presented a . Petition . from , the Freer
.7
holders of Middlesex, praying for an efficient Varliamentaty,
Reform. The .Petition,, the Honourable 'Wernher. spill hat
been lying since the 10th. of February in the hands of 'l%4ler,
Cartwright. What the reason of that delay was, he. ieally
tic kno.w. There were parts of, the Petition. vitll,4oli4 he
ditt..nOt. agree. •
ENGROSSING

l 111/111E willhed to know what purpose wfte sired by
engrossing bills, nt.ri, considerable expellee, in a n
nolgitly could rend, it would. be incomparably: bft,ter, he
thought, at this time of day, toluive them fairly written out
in the plain intelligible English letter.
171,kg CklBl:ol4,ti.

The CITA Ncglel,oll:ofthe EXPll4t4Proll having,moved
die order of the day for considering postponed rcscHluqo4 'reht.
the to the 4upplyt ' ' .
Mr. !LUAU; rose toicomplain that the Treasury had. disre.
•
Kg the recommendation of the Commissioners of Inquiry
as regarded t 4 appeintaweat of Officers of the CUAtoins. lie
wished to know why a Mr. Cuthbert Sharpe had -been made
Coltectog OA sunderland, we understood).—an office. worth ftini
*yea to.e!ghtt hundred a year, Ur. Sharpe !mins been tleitiCelY
any tine in the service, and having, been appalghat over the
heads of many officers of of standing.
3traitls,lllNGT(„)N *id, that, Ir. Sharpe hail been pro.
Minflrt4pllkce in question prior to the recommendation of the
Celtuniastoriers of Innolly. • • .
lair. II (44.1 did note well understand how. that 1041 he—
Thv -I'qert el. the C9Mnkisaioners had come in lin ;iiii4 Mr.
ShaTel4 appointmept had ri in 1132. It must bave Leek A
":"1" 41144eii'Vilt4 ,. s-:7,- it kiTmrs4 Nusr,u,N.
Mr. I.,VSHIN Isvmoved that a sump Rot caret:ding
. goigke
441,000 L. 4puld loc grattktest I'M the, new builtlinir Rot
evicted
at the Urinal' Musevle to* the IVPAPtion of the teed Library.
11r. DANNES vitakitai co 444, 44 an amendment, ao4 that
this sum IAO grast4 without fee.m:ao*Liun.ii
mi iio.l)-uotam twooftwo *.sq an 110TIOgrO4 (iflitit-
gni% 0061 tgr 44 n9t44s. i. 44. 1.14.. i 1,6.14 I*4 Irersitmi-
pLrm4ro u, z4tlAntial ant „. Ghent uta4 411.4.' tri,,,,, i 1;,
.twit 44,404, tAttog wale pot Vrttin4, 0 VI In
11,04144 kbet flptio with a lola atnieriAtioia a an the an est. . , e
ioothAteuir 4.1r0vv",t4 2.4 tetf[R4 sr*
placing the °Yid (wary at W 'lick , that iquet rig.

Sir C. 1..0NG thought the flon.'illernber's amendment, quite
unnecessary. ' Tht trustees of the British Aluseurn would never
have thought of .nuilding' with the public money, without
taking the opinion anti approval of the Treasury as to what
they did. pinion
Ilonourable. hlember proceeded to defend'
the building and atrunt,,einents of ..the British .31 usturn t and
declared that the entertainment which the 'House, had de.;
rived from the address of the Bonotitable Member for Bodmin
pn a former evening, they owed to the fertility of his invention
rather than to the accuracy of his "stateinents. Boom was ter.
tainly Wanted t foe *Sir George Beaumont had offered his
collection ua thellluseutii, and it had been declined for want
Of a place to put it in. But the 'gallery `of Which, as 'to
arrangement, the lion. Geptlemag hart so bitterly complained,:
that gallery had been planned by 31r. Tosnly himself;' and,
With all due deference to 'the' taste of the Zion. Gentleman, it
wars'a,'matter upon Which Mr. Townly um* likely to be, at least,
as well instructed as hiniself. The lion. Baronet ant down by
opposing the project for carrying the Exhibition to Somerset.
house. In the first place, he believed that there would not' be
space for the undertaking; in the next place, 'it WAS evident
that the cost of a building would be inimense.t and a ford=
:objection still: was, that the fOnndation' watt a very bad ono-40
bed, indeed, as to be probably the reason why Stanerset-houso:
'had tiei'ei been 'joinitletkl.
Y
Sir 'JOSEPH ORKB obscsved,oupon the great expetire,
which had' been laid on the Right marbles, stud the
nience of thvir present Situation. Ile recommended that Sorneer
aet,house-shOuld be entrtvieted,. the 'untltrisho < store of which
idisgraced the Capital and the country,/ anti thorn gallery shoulik
be added, in which those marbles, might' be deliostted, to ether;
with whet other works of art the .niouev which the noose-should
;choose to Sate would purchase. At. all events, he advised that
there should be no more moneygranted until a regular pion
should have been submitted to the iiniise of the intended
:alterations.

Mr; ACIA It ; ELLIS very much objected to sending the late
King's library to the kittiektn.; because he thought that /two,
great.libraries were not at all more than the metropolis requirtd;
Ile defended the WI-induce of )the, Museum from the retlec..
dens case upon them for the performance of a ditfitittlty without,
fee or reward by the Secretary of he Admiralty, Whose arnetidq
'meet he pktnised tb oppose. He :praised the uobl attd,pa
triotie girt; of an Hen. Rennet, who .)
.had ,presentesl the country)
with lus collection of, paintings. There were many other cOl7.
leetions now disposable, of ;Which .the country ought to snit
itself. The collection of .31r. Angerstela would, be; sold dip!.
course of-next year, and if not looked after, at he understood,
would meat certainly, go out of the ,country. His intention *as
to moie fora grant in, the next Sessibn "to be applied under
Commissioners to the purchase of this and other collections' for,
the formation of a National Gallery.' ' '

The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCIIEQPieIt justified the
Contutittee of the British Alusettm. 'He' hap nett to' be oink'
of them' and was, dehjed that cretin' for to by his Her:
nouraltle,Frientl, its a member of the Comtnittee, which its'aii
abunclantli hestowN upon him as a Lord of the Troaahif.:
He did not conceive that it was a matter of course, that lit.
cause the'Lords of the Treariuty were responsiVe for" the rah,.
ing arid laying out of money, they were' the` most ehp,d.li.
persons in matters of mere, taste. 'For his 6V41 pvt, he reAlly
dreaded the censures of hitt Ifon. Frlond'nesii him, who, `be it
known to the House, considered himself, very jnstly nh.tlembt'
to have, considerable taste in architecture, He certainktoftti
Oat Sn ineiset..houSe,vfincit was i ambitsambitspilitt of•builtilng, ent t
AV
tobe lioshi,,,
d,,tid at ekornepthtV dine bernight move for a kt, t
for eiutt.purptote. But, ti.s tp Wilding., there he must ow,ex.
cusett:Llie Was afraid or dillthg.under the criticism cif his fteri.
Friend, who wool be bitt tee apt to apply to him the epiniph
on Sir John 17anbritglir— . . ..
,
". Lie heavy an, him, earth, for, he 1 i
" Laidi,many a heavy load on thee." '
lie:thought the 3ituatinh of the Alnpeum not so Very objection-
able. AS to the argument that the'libtaty was not open" to all the
Aoilif, he thought that was rather an odvatitsigt-Oso ethtrieist:
The models of antiquity ought to be as open as pohaiblevtaqite
ciamination of artists. Certainly a national Whitetail 'ought In
be magnificent; and the preitia huilding was not'The'heit Cal;
culated for that effect: but where Could 'they select '4:situation
in which they could Comniand the mine Spice of greAd?' 114
I entirely disa pp rev eil of the ' prOPCiati/ 'of the lion.' 'Member fit* Ni-estiolnkter to use lirliitelinil-cliakt. ''
Tilt 'll6.n..ttintlemill
had proposed to, erect a second story.; but; 4.00.14.1 God I.'''crhat 4
departure that would be from Magnificence, or prOpertiott,:.Ot
any thing else which they disirell ! Be waxy glittllosiittritO
attention of the I i ;luso directed to this subject,' and hoped:l4th
early i,„ the next hi:viers tkuiy *ohlil hot only be abletaltifatil
li)eitrOPOeYs but that .4 plan would belnittured which miglvt.l,4
thought quite wathy of thti subject. ' ' ', i-'"--- --',
4 wt
111r.' J. .ii,Tx..4, ;lit. S. IVhat t ex. and. Vt.' Altivinats
liVoup, sin a toiv *ottlsitaell.. '''' ' . ' - ' '',: •'? , '''''
Alt -IVARlNti,itt 1 1,,i) tett the amendmeht. .He consttlerod the
mixture re Anttn-41t$1, . , ' 4:MI-meat Hlitery,. ate Via,,
in, the lyttustitm to b( mutt illixamtige suit Tirtz-biz.
rangement. The wOriheof'art should 1
~. C. !X_
~
~,..
Selves.' There wore 0111'060in tasty totl/0/,Bsoolle,k 11111,1013. lll,
never-be tie' airs by the..priblie. l'aitC'W‘tit, f.',.v_i,t,llO.,!tt
Works had heeo thrown loto • OW htot,4* vit's:loar ility:gi's 74,,7
ki,'FAohtonmeodlt(n &Via "'"i'k; il4ll.;!_aus. And way, for
..,,iyn --, - great cabinets aria lit bud. *weir us this to be
a country (.11 (mei' 1101Aatt v-t" • 1 ieproa •it Ho. hi bly
Ilienit a villory Of 'rt ii' a natty ~ (.. • , K
WI
rn .4—. l' I ' 14 * 4 AIM thpt ittioiottt wits homily*,
Pk-,.-.,-V--10-'t-lv qir, ' ',ityrthilletetty $ earylally tio
/1914 cl 111041 (It. "4: e ' eiiiikiltat 'Of the late r'Ah.
'tit 0 luitChstilt . A..,
Oil
filch
"7 tit 4 . bar Mr !I. 0 huhly and hire IV. Shill Tit
`-' e. WV ' -4
I i t,,iiiffi, 1, lit:1 rivetv vi Idol oar
(i''. }1.4",1-,T,4'9,114-11111tgi '''on'Vt4l(4l4 7t'inr.P 1 'tl,4,C 1,1,144*. 41:tilledr
}tit h 4 tribli tkin _ .. ,_ in
it'ot the iirtgihalltiOStt - - #4 .
Ilitt)ffitt
On our return to gallery,. the Sr.E.Sit s: it rat the itestA4.

441‘;`

tion for granting '.9,2301. folbuilding churthes, and for pur-
chaAng glebe for the Clergy in Ireland.
Mr. hUM E said he was compelled to divide the House upon
tilts item, for which he thought that no sufficient reason had
been given by Ministers.
The gallery was again cleared for a division—
-05
For the Resolution - -
Against it - .-35 •
Majority —3O
The other Resolutions were carried without a division---
FURE:IUN RELATIONS.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH postponed his motion, of which he.
had given notice for Thursday next, till Monday next. His
reason was, 'that he had not. suffitient information-to proceed
with satisfaction to Itimself. The more complete and satisfac-
tory hisinfOrmationi the more advantageotis it would he for the
clause which he was to advocate." -The postponement of the
motion for ft few days would give an opportune , perhaps, for
the arrival of that 'very- information which he required, and with
that hope he had resolved to postpone it till Monday next.
A Messagefrom the Lords here announced that their Lord-
ships had passed a Private Bill relative to the estate of Sheffield
Hospital. •

PRIVILEGE.
Mr. BROUGHA3I presented a .petition from Mr. Rowan,
on a subject which he had already brought under the notice of
the House. lie begged, however, in the first ins e, t
tanco con-
feet a mis-statement which had gone abroad. respecting what he
had said on that occasion. He never intended to hold out that
the Hon. Member, of whom he bad inquired respecting the
character of the petitioner, had given any opinion, tile way or
the other, respecting the facts M the case. He should, there-
fore, now move that the petition be brought up.
Mr. WYNN said the House already knew the subject-matter
of the petition. It charged a Member of that House (Colonel
Crosby) with several indictable offences, said. to be cot-omitted
not in any public character. The 'Howie, if it believed the
petitioner, must either inquire into the case, or allow the petition
to lie on the table. If the charges had been laid before Goyim).
meat, they vfould, if they thought proper, direct a prosecution.
But the greatest inconvenience would arise from a practice ketch
as this was calculated to encourage, as the petition ,charged no,
one offence committed in any public capacity.
Mr. BROUGHAM said he was aware of, the difficulties of
the -ease. Generally he ateetted to all his Hon. :Friend had
sti'd ; but the blouse ought not to shew too much caution in
receiving charges against their own Members. The. present
case was not, he apprehended, without precedent. Lord Mel-
vale's case was somewhat similar; but Ridge's ease wax exactly,
in point. It occurred in the reign of Queen Anne. Mr. Ridge,
it appeared, was charged with having as a contracting, brewer I
delivered a less number of barrels of beer than he contracted
and received payment for. The present case charged an H0n..,.
Member with an abuse of patronage which he bad acquired as
a Miniaterial Member fur a county He did. not wish to sub-
stitute Trial by Parliament for Trial by Jury ; but he appre-
hended that the proper course would be .for his Right lion.
Friend not to oppose the receiving of the Petition, but to state
his -reasons against going into the matter on the question for
taking the subject into consideration.
Mr. WYNN explained. Ile still thought this was the pro-
per time for objecting to entertain the ease.
Mr. 51. FITZGERALD was also anxious to correct the
mistake alluded to by his lion. Friend as to what had passed
en the former occasion. ('rite Right Hon. Gentleman here re- I
ferred to the correspondence between Mr. Brougham and him.
self.) Ile had never any desire to conceal the fact that he was
the person referred to. Ills object was to avoid being a party
to the charge, lest his being so might be referred to personal
hostility. An impression, however, existed that he had coun.,
tenanad this attack on his Hon. Colleague, Those who knew
him would bear him out in saying, that, if he countenanced
such a charge, he would be above doing it by any base or in-
direct means.—(Blear, hear!)—He now had to state most dis-
tinctly, that he had never countenanced these charges in any
way whatever. He had even declined to enter into any cote-
respondence on the subject; and had desired his agent to state
to the Pctitionera that he would be no party to any such charge.
'He trusted he had cleared himself from the impression Which
the partial review of his correspondence with his Honourable
Friend might have made without this explanetion.—(Hear
Mr. BROUGHAM explained. The easiest course for him-
self personally would be that this matter should be left as it
now remained ; but he thought the House would not perform
their ditty it they aid not follow the precedents which heti been
aet them in former timess.
Colonel CROSSY said, he was now quite satisfied thatdda
Right. Hon. Colleague had taken impart tu the charge against
itine—tHear, beat)
Alr.lsle FITZGERALD explained.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said, he recollected that he was in
office in Ireland when the petitioner was ditimissed, of which
diemissel he complained!, though he did not recollect the par.
titular circumstances.. lie could however confidently state
that ptepolitieal feeling whatever had influenced his (Boasted.
(lieta, hear !)
The petition was then brought up, anti read. On the ques-
tion fur its .lying the table,
Mr. WYNN said it was impossible for the House to let the
Padden lie on the table without taking ftollle measure upon
,it; and this could not be done in the course of the present
Session.
The question for the Petition lying on the Wile was then
put, and declared by the Speaker to be carried in the negative'
Ituta division being called for,
The House divided, when there appeared.—
' For receiving the Petition -
Against it -
Majority
RELIGIOUS PROSECUTIONS.
Mr. HUME preiented. a Petition, signed by upwards of
2000 persons, of whom 011 were Ministers,. anti of these two
were of the Church of England. Before he lewd the subject
of the Petition, lie thought proper to correct an assertion he had
made last night on the .discussion of the English Catholics
Bill, and which conveyed an opinion unfavourable to the Dis.
seaters generally lie had no such intention and .the Peti•
don he now presented was a proof that lie had himself no such
nefavourable opinion; The Petitioners stated their belief in
Christianity, and their conviction that persecutions against the
diseemination of Anti-Christian prinetples were against its
spirit, and acted as incentives to infidelity. He thought him-
self, that Carlile had taken a wrong course for his own pur-
pose ; but. on the other hand, --he thought the xottrse pursued
against him was Most injurlout. The language of the present
Petition, which spoke in disapprobation of that course, was as,
,rieneible aend Chreitisn.like as any lie hail O'er read; and par..
tit:ale-fly noticed the futility of prosecutions of a nature -like
• tiOve which had been carried on agaimit Cathie. He should
'therefore, after bringing up this Petition; submit a motion to
the /louse, in substance containing the sentiments of the Teti.
Venters in the form of a Resolution. He bad been advised by
inttay of his friends not to persevere in-this course ; but he bad
Ott:mined to do so from a conviction that be was right.
' On the motion that the petition be printed,
Mr. BuTTE WORTH. asked by hew many Ministers of'
the Church of England this petition was signed, and of' what
class of dissenters the other petitioners consisted.
Mr. HUME replied, that it was sighed by dissenters of all
dames, and the names of the Ministers were in a separate column.
Nr; W. SMITH could not see the pertinency of the Hon.
Membee's quieition. The petition was, however, signed, he
Could assure him by persons,Whose religions opinions were as
• perfectly opposed' to each other as possible.
The petition was ordered to be prtnted, '
„Mr. 111,151 E then said, that the object of the motion he in.
tended to intake 'was to establish the propoeition. that freedom
of &scut:shin wire allowable, by the tenets of Christianity, and
tite .Laws of England founded epon them. Ile was aware that
the mere, proetenitione luta cootredietcd this proposition; but
he Neill thougilt the intelligence of the age would affirm it. lie '
mss Pattitttiar that no giitatwould arise from a contrary doc-
trine. AK we hal obtained our own religion by a discus-
milieu of that -which preceded it, we elitinla, act most illibe-
Tail/ nod unwisely by *topping a alectiseion of our own.—
, We hail nd right -to eorontier oureeltee exclusively intal.
censitleted the Proteetant religion es the best ; but
we plight ndrt therefore to visit the bend of power on those
differed from us. The Jews, who differed from us en-
tirely as to the Founder of our religio, had vary properly re-
.ceived the 'benefit of tolerations and the Qteaketet and Us -
Neaten; in the eitrue manner were allowed to act upon and dit-
sseminitte their religious opinioi s. it bad been said that teni-
perste discussion was allowed, but be really knew not how
Aki,e. was to be. defined. The Act prolaiting a denial of
the Trinity had been repealed, so that lie wax at a loss
to say what Blii.iphmy was. When Christianity had re-
sisted the attacks of men, of the greatest learning and talents,.
,what fear could be entertained of' the effect., of the labours of
.paropidetenogers The lion. Member here referred to the
;stilts In Lardner,. Taylor, Chillingworth, anti
wino writers, in cienfirmation of has own. In some of Carillea
c.alm and argumentative language ;
publications he had.found
othurate found it scurrilous and offensive, ; but theformer
*s adMittedly unObjectionablee and the latter was sure to,
meet with contempt and
,neglect. These prosecutions always
-irteriense&the curiosity to inspect the works. This was proved
in the tab of Paine's, Lawrence`ft, and Byron'S works, on the
epuillitatiem of them being questioned by, It was time
Lein. of &ha Beatty fur the Suppression of Vice. amid
brow fit C that
a° of the.
Bridge-street Association, which had arl into
;notice. The present,Dishop of 'Landon had, in his late charge
.to his. Clergy, implied!), discountenanced these prosecutions,
fdf be 4a:observed that the recent attacks a
dishc on tus si e hristiaits
n'
Religion had proved its strength, by calling C
on of
principles. into,,action., The ,lionourable Member proceeded
at cOnsidesable length to -enforce his argument' in favour
.40.-torwitlified ,freWtri of discussion, by queting fort bur

21;

extracts from the Works of the Writers he 'had alluded to.
There was nothing in the New Testament which sanctioned
persecution. It counselled no severity, but on, the contrary
recommended the use of argument and persuasion alone. Ile
thought it ;unnecessary. toeadvert to the principles which Mr.,
Cultic had lately advanced. He, for his own part, did
not believe that any. man iu his senses, who had the com-
mon meanie of procuring information open tohim, could be an
Atheist. Argument, ore-cinch a subject, would be threivn away.
Ile would say that atheistical opinions ought not to be coun-
tenanced or mentioned, but on the contrary ought to be put
down, but this ought to be effected not by prosecutions but by
contempt and neglect. He concluded by moving the following
Resolution—" That it appears to this I4ouse that free discus-
sion has proved more beneficial than injurious:to the community,
anti this House is therefore of opinion that it is inexpedient anti
unjust to expose any person to legal penalties, on account of
the expression of his sentiments on matters-of religion."
Mr. WILBERFORCE concurred with-much of what had
fallen from the Hon. Gentleman on the importance and value
offree discussion, but at the same time considered that writ-
ings such as had been lately sent forth to the world, deserved to
ho pursued as mains bones -mores. The people ought not to have
their convictions of the truths of Christianity ridiculed away
by such indecent ribaldry as the ;publications to which he hat,
alluded contained, and in his opinion those who were exposed
to this danger, had a right to look to Parliament for protec-
tion. The lion. Gentleman react a passage from one of the
pamphlets of which he had spoken, which described 44 Chris.
tiantty,to have been proved a gross. imposture," and asserted
"the inquiring mind could find no firm resting place but in athe-
ism," lie agreed with the authorities referred to by the lion.
Gentleman, that free and fair discussion should always be al-
lowed, and was satisfied that truth would ba benefitted by it.
But those eminent persons who entertained this opinion, never
meant to say that ribaldry and indecency should be tolerated.
In proof of this he referred to Dr. Paley, who favoured reli-
gious toleration, but who declared that he spoke " of serious
argument, and not of ridicule, invective, and mockery ; for
these inflamed the passions, weakened the judgment, and con.
taminuted the imagination. These, in no respect served the
cause of truth, but, instead of proving the superior value of
sonic one religion, tended to destroy the influence of alt."—
He read another passage to the teene effect, hut declined'
troubling the House with the offensive parts of the pub. ,
lications which he had mentioned. The Honourable Gen..
tieman had said that many of the publications which had
appeared had not obtained great credit till they were '
prosecuted. Ile confessed that this was a question to which
he thought greet. attention ought to be paid. If a work
were ever so gross and improper, he would still be against
prosecuting it, if it had not. . previously been widely tarcus
lilted. lie, however, was of opinion that the writings of Celiac
hail been widely circulated, as his shop had been crowded from
morning till night, in consequence of his writing up that that was
the shop for the sale of Atheistieal works. The advocates for
Christianity had not, so far as he was informed, laboured to
advance the doctrinee which they favoured, by, ridicule of
Pagan observances. The founders of the Christian religion
had inculcated the necessity of observing decency, decorum,
and respect, for " the Powers that be," and that, too, dur-
ing the reign of one of the worst tyrants that had ever lived.
The freest discussion ought to be tolerated. No one could be
more friendly to this principle than himself ; but then he must
take the distinction which Dr. Paley had taken between se.
rious argument and due regard to the common decencies of
life and offensive ribaldry. But though friendly to discussion,
he did not know that it was necessary for that House to go out
of its way to affirm the proposition, brought before them, as
this was a course which they were not accustomed to take with.
out special reasons for doing so. He adverted to those Asso-
ciations which had been formed to prosecute cettain transgres-
sions of the law. There were some cases in which it .might
safely be left for individuals to prosecute the guilty. But there
were others, which, though . exceedingly gross, no individual
would feel himself hound to pursue. Such was the case when
publications, the most detestably obscene, Issued train the press.
.He, therefore, thought associations formed for the purpose of
causing the law to be enforced in such cases largely benefited
the public.
Mr. RICARDO said, nobody defended invective and ri.
bahlry, but he must strongly contend for the value and import-
ance of free discussion. If the lion. Gentleman favoured
flee discussion, when free from invective and ridicule, how
could ho defend the lews of this country as at intermit admi-
nistered ? Ile referred to the case of Carlile, who had been
prosecuted for publishing the Age qf Reason, which was a
seriously argumentative performance, The same individual
had ,been imprisoned 111 weeks for publishing the Parodies of
Hone, and it was only, when he was acquitted that Guide was,
liberated. Obscenity, they.till knew, was that which ought not
to be tolerated, its it was Injurious to the community. Ilut he
thought the utmost freedom ought to he allowed to religious
discussion. Ile had on a former occasion noticed the incon.
eintent clause pursued iu Courts of Justice with respect to
persons who did not believe its a future state.
• Mr. WILBERFORCE spoke to order.—He thought the
Hon. Member was nut instilled in recurring to a former debate.
Mr. RICARDO maintained that he had a right to do so.
Mr. lIODHOUSE and Mr. lietelteET wereof opinion the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Ricardo) was not out of order.
Mr. RICARDO resumed. What he meant to remark upon
was this, that If a man who disbelieved in a future state, were
honest enough in the case supposed to tell the ttuth, his evi-
dence would not be received, but if lie were a liar Ida testi-
mony might go 'to a Jury. , Now what he wished was, tint that
eibalry should he encouraged, but that every one should be al.
lowed freely to express his sentiments on religious matters. Hu
remembered a laugh had followed his supposition on a former
night, that an honest man might state in sCourt of Justice his dis-
belief in a future state. lie was one Of those who believed an
honest man might hold such an opinion. There were other ties
which hr!d men to their duty than those of religion. God
forbid that there should not be such. The sanction of religion
was that which might bo tdded to all, hut he was satisfied that
a man might be honest and yet hold the opinion which he had
;summed. He quoted Tillotson m support of his argument,
and referred to Dlr. Owen es being anhonest, benevolent, and
highly meritorious man, who did not believe in a future state.
He contended for the most perfect freedom in religious matters,'
but expressed a hope that for so doing he should not be taunted
as infected with those opinions which were generally obnoxious
'to the Members of that House..
- i
1
Mr. U. TWISS was of opinion that the arguments of' the
Hon. Mover and the last lion. Member who spoke would pro.
duce the contrary effect of that which they intended; and prejue '
,
dice the freedom of the press.: Did they wish to prevent this 1
description of cases front being tried by:it'Common or Special'
sitirj, of their Peers? ' If so, they would break down one of the
strongest arguments which was alWays used against subjecting
such publications to a previous censorship, as they now were
abroad. ThiS was authority sufficient for the Act passed in the
reign of King William. Lord lisle had said that the .persons
who assailed the religion of the kingdom Were indictable as ihr
acts calaulated to break the chains of all, civil society. The acts
which the Hon. Members for Montrose and Portarlington had
1 endeavoured to exhibit as: not criminal, were • not the re. 1
stilts of Mere political Opinions, but absolute acts injurious to i
the welfare of the communitY: What was the object of those
acts ?
.To instil doubts of Christianity into the Minds of various '
individuals ; doubts which were entertained by 'persons some-
times against theirivill.--(Cheers from the Member; for Mon-1
trose and Portarlington.),--He was glad to. beer those cheers,
for they would make in his thvour. If a man who was de-
sirous of entertaining Chrbstianity AS his religion imbibed doubts
of it from the acts of threw individuals, were net they criminal
in relation to the happiness of that man by exciting his doubts ?
'!'saes certainly were. Art to persecution for opinion's, the law
of' Vartgland.did not perseeute any man for his opinions, but for '
the ptomulgation and diseemination of them. The House was
bound to observe from whom those extraordinary arguments in
favourof liberal latetudinarianisin proceeded; from those Mem-
bers, who in defence to their boasted liberality had a stunt time
since, when the emancipation of six millions of their fellow-sub-
jects' from political and religious slavery had been under dis-
cussion, had, by their secession, prevented their appeal -from
being successful." There was a complaint of, persecution, es if
there was danger of fagot and the strike : white, in fact, the,
very petitioners prom' the non.existence of 'such punishments.
The Heat. Member for Portarlington appeased to fear m
nothing
for the people fro the circulation of the infamous tracts which
had been circulated every week by Carl ile ; but was there nothing
to be feared for Christianity in the minds of the vulgar from the
cheap tracts now scattered freely among them ? lie certainly
thought there was, and lie thought Out time punishment inflicted
by, the laws on the dieeemiliatore of such publications was ajust
one, and one likely to prevent die most clireful injuries to the
nation.
Mr. W. SMITH thought the Iron. Gentleman Who had just
sat doWn had considered the question but little, for scarce one
word in his speech applied to the only point under discussion,
as his argument applied not more to ribaldry and indecency,
than. to the most serious anti decorous mode of discussing reli-
gious 'subjects. ' No mats abhorred more than he did the this.
gusting manner in which religious matters had been treated by
Mr, Carlile and others; but he was still a friend to tree opt.
nions and free discussion. He thought it' produced sonic
good to bring questions like the present occasionally before
Parliament, as they never failed to call forth from almost all
parts of 'the Hope declarations favourable to freedom of the-
,
emotion. , Ile had. read ' the Petition with very great pleasure.
Ile found namee attached- to it as free from the taint of irre.
ligion, scepticism,- anti every thing which did not do honour to
'human nature its any that could he Mentioned. Ile did not
say that the authority of these pereons ought to induce the
House to: do what they thought wrong, but he was convinced
that the more this subject was considered the more it would be

seen that oltenceilike thosein question were not fit subjects for
human punishment. •
Mr. T. WILSON thought the Honourable Gentleman who
complained that his predecessor had deviated from the ques-
tion, had gone much wider from the point in discussion him-
self. He opposed the motion, as the publicatfons to which
allusion had been made, went to pullalown the corner stone of
the Church, which they couldnotdo without danger to the State.
Mr. MONEY opposed the motion, vindimited the Methodists
from the charges preferred ageing them, and stated, that from
a letter which he had recently received from Mr. Owen, he had
reason to believe that Gentleman had been incorrectly describ-
ed by the lion. Member forTortirlington, when he spoke of,
him as one who did not believe in a future state. He wished
to know in what part of the works of Mr. Owen he found :such
mi•opinion expressed ?
Mr. RICANDO had been led to form such an opinion from
the statement put forth by Mr. Owen, that a man did not form
his own character, and could not help the errors into which he
might fall. It therefere seemed to him naturally to follow, that
he would consider a just and good Being would not punish a
mortal for that which he could not help. He should feel great
concern if he had inadvertently misrepresented him: - .
Mr. Secretary PEEL should not have offered one word if
it bad not been said, in the course of this debate,' but that little
difference of opinitmprevailed on the question before them,
and that the House, if it did not go all the way with the
Honourable Member for Aberdeen, went a great part of it.
Ile protested against this being regarded as the fact. lie, for
one, did not go a single met) along with that Honourable
Gentleman. In the first place, he objected to the mode of
bringing this subject forward. Ile had offered a Resolution
declaring it to be the opinion of that House, that free discus-
sion had been more beneficial than injurious to the community.
Free discussion I Discussion. on what—on Politics or Reli-
gion ? These might be very beneficial, but the Commons of
, ,
England had a right to expect better digested propositions
than those contained in the Resolution of the lion. Gentleman.
If his Resolution were framed at all in this way it ought to
have declared that free discussion would be beneficial, instead
cf speaking retrospectively, and sayiog that it had been so.—
For taking the' lattereourse was to, assume that We had free
discussion already, and in that mei hiiw was this ,Resolution
necessary? But having carried such a ResoltaionoVould be
leave the law as it now stood ? Would be leave persons liable
to be prosecuted for offences against religion while the House
of Commons declared that this ought not to be ?
Mr. HUME intimated that he wished the law to be altered.
Mr. Secretary PEEL resumed. If the lion. Gentleman
meant to follow by this Resolution by bringing in a Bill to
alter the law, what could he expect to gain by this Resolu-
tion
: And what an absurdity would it !be to allow the
present law to remain in force in the face of a declaration
from that House, that the Minim against which it was di..
rected ought not to be punished! He had never seen the peti-
tion till within about ten minutes, and a.piece of more absurd
,or sophistical reading he had never met with. It described the
Petitioners to believe in the Christian religion, and to be thank-
ful to Almighty God for that great blessing which they re-
garded as " the best safegard for public morals, and. the
firmest support and most eirecturd source of relief for suffering
humanity." And yet they were content to allow any man for
his particular profit to attempt with impunity to overthrow that
faith which of these important blessings. What sense
could there be in calling upon the House to pass a law to enable
these individuals to raise money by the extension of blasphemy.
To leave them atliberty to shake the faith of those who had
not the opportunity to find an antidote for the poison ; to de-
prive persons, perhaps advanced in years, of the greatest bles-
sing tries can enjoy, namely, their religious faith. The Peti-
tion held out that morality would exist without prosecutions.--
The King might remain on his throne without prosecutions
for treason, but would any one say high treason should not be
prosecuted? The petitioners said they felt disgust at inde-
cency and profaneness. If these persons denied the sacred
character of the Christian religion, why, did they feel dis-
gitsted ? The indecent abuse of the Christian religion could
not be unpleasant to them. The whole of this Petition was a
tissue of deceptions reasoning, lie, for one, would support the
;law. if it could be proved the law had been abused, that was
no reason, for destroying the law. To maintain that there was
no mediurn between prosecution and persecution was most ab-
surd ; but the question was, whether the House would enable
Mr. Carl& to destroy the peace of mind of those who bad not
the opportunity to examine and confirm their faith. On that 1
question he ,hould decline advancing a single step with the',
Hon. Gentleman. .
. , Mr. HUM E, in reply, said lie had no hope, if his resolution
was carried, of passing a Bill this Session ; therefore it was not
I. his intention to divida the House _Mr. PEE'. explained.
Mr. BARING said, a. few words in defence of Mr. flume.
Thu question was then put -.nil negatived without a division.
PIPE WATER IN DUBLIN.
Mr. (;RATTAN moved an bumble Address tohis Majesty,
praying, that he will be graeiously pleased to' order law pro.
ceedings against tbeCorporatiOn of Dublin, to aseeftsin what
sums were due from that body on account of Pipe Water.
Mr. DAWSON said, the Corporation of Dublin were not
placed on a fair footing it' they were to be subject to a prose-
cation by the Attorney-General. The question ought to be
decided by application to Chancery.
Mr. GOULBURN said, the Government of Ireland were
determined to do whet was fair to the Corporation of Dublin
and the public. • ,
Mr. Gn AT TAN finally consented to withdraw his motion.
TITHE COMPOSITION BILL. • .
Tithe Composition Bill was received, and
severalßeportei
adtdheed by Mr. OotrfAvo uN to the Bill, which
T he
auses o f
was ordered to be read a third time on Friday.
LAW OF MERCHANTS.
- The. House went into a Committee on the Law of Merchants'
Bill, which was reported with amendments, and ordered to be
taken into further consideration on Thursday.
The Elective Franchise Bill was read a third time and passed.
, . The other Orders of, the Day were disposed of, and the House
adjourned. at (/1E O'CLocic.
virgiomme

RIAAMLN„ Aitir vitoubtoLm.ib,

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
. , Maras, 1° die ,Itzlii, 1 523.
RECIPROCITY OF DUTIES ilf f. r. —Petitions, against, from
Shipowners of South Shields, anti Shipwrights and others
employed in building Ships on the River Thames.
Rurmtm or Pant.TAME wr —Petition of the Freeholders of
__the County of Middlesex, in favour thereof'.
HIGHLAND CHVII.CIiES 1 Rills read a third time,
HLECTIVE: FnaNCIIISZ f , and passed.
Ottyr iI. LE nix s —Bill reported; ,to be read a third time on
Alnksilloyic Flom TUE. LonDs--'That that they have passes(' a
..,
Bill, intituled, " An Act, for changing_ the site of the Hos-
pital at Sheffield,. in the County of ,York, founded by the
Right Hon. Gilbert Earl of Shrewsbury: and for the better
regulation of the affairs of that Charity.

NOTICES OF MOTIONS for THIS DAY.
I.lr. Chancellor of the. Eichequer—Budget.
2. Mr. 'Powell Buxton—Select Committee on Papers relating
to the ship Requin.• • •
3. Mr..Grattan—Copy of all Correspondence between his sla-
Jesty's Government in Ireland and the Parishioners of 'the
Parish of Itallihay, in the County of Monaghan, respect-
ing proceedings itt certain Vestry Meetings held in that
parish lain year. - • -
4. Mr. Ilume—ResolittionaxeSpecting the Land Tax.
ORDERS of the'DAY for THIS 'DAY.
1. Exchequer Bills Bill (El4,7o9,ooo)—Committee.
1 Reciprocity of Duties Bill—Third Reading.
3.' Conduct of the Chief Baron of the Exchequer (Ireland)--
Committee thereupon.
4. Oticasional Freeholders Bill—Furtheremsideration of Report-
5. Quakers Affirmations Bill—Second Reading.
G. Building of Gaols 11111-Thircl 'Reading..
7. Disembodied Militia Rill-Third Readtng.
it. Bertha Duties Bill—Committee.
9. Law Expences Ireland) Bill Second Reading.
10. Lotteries Bill Third Reading. •
11. Cnainn4 Dude's (Ireland) likil—R.eport.
12. Equalization of Duties Bill--Report.
13. Roman Catholic Qualification Bill--. Further consideration
of Report.
14. Unlawful Oaths (Ireland) Bill—Third Reading.
15. Marriage Act Amendment Bill—:-Second Reading.
16. Passage Vessels Regulation (Ireland) Bill—Report.
17. Post Horse Duties Bill--Third Reading.
16. Insolvent Debtors Act Amendment
deration of Report.'
19. East India Half Pay Bill—Third Reading.
20. Passage Vessels Regulation pill—Tliird Reading.
q
21. Linen Manufacture (Ireland) Ilill--Repott.
22. Chnrch Rates (Ireland) Bill—Report.
28. Malicious Injuries (Ireland) B
24. Exche uer ill--.-Seeond Reading.
NOTICES GIVEN YESTERDAY.
Courts (Ireland) 11111--;--Second Reading.
Thursday, Jai!' 3.
I. Mr. Bankes—Select Conmittee to inquire into the progress
made in the General Index to the Journals.
2. • Sir •H enry Parnell—Roman Catholic Endowments of Schools
and other Charities. Deferred front July 1.
Monday, Julll 7.
Sir James Markintosh—Copies of the Instructions Inn.
mitted by his Majesty's Government to Sir 'dim. A'Court,
tbr the regulation of his condUct in the case of changes
made by the Cortes in the internal Government in Spain.
Deferred from July 3.
PRIVATE 111LL—SEcoam Rtaparu for Tuts DAY.
My thief -Estate.