The Sun.
London, England, 1823-07-03 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Mr. WILBERFORCE presented a petition froth certain
persons at Pershore, in Worcestershire, praying for the Aboli-
tion of Slavery.
Several petitions were presented from other places to the same
effect.
Mr. F. BUXTON moved, that there should be laid before
the Howie an Account of Medicines furnished by the Apothe-
caries' Company to the Army and Navy within the last five
years ; with the correspondence between the Admiralty and the
Apothecaries' Company as to prices.
Mr. CROKER offered no objection to the motion (as be un-
derstood no blame was imputed to the Admiralty), although no
ground had been made out for it.
Mr. BUXTON would have made out a ground if any ob-
jection had been oft'ered. _ _

Mr. A. ROBARTS presented a petition from the Masters,
Mates, and Seamen of mercbatit vessels in the port of London,
against the Reciprocity of Duties 11111.
Mr. T. WILSON presented a similarpetition from the Ship-
owners ofLondon, who coMplained of the manner in which the
evidence waa taken in the Committee on the BBL—The petition
was laid on the table.

Mr. THOMPSON presented a petition from merchant of
the city of London, complaining of the high Duties upon Po,.
reign Seed.—Laid upon the table.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH presented a petition from John
Clark, late surgeon of the Berkshire militia, complaining of the
regulations with respect to the vay of retired militia surgeons.—,
Ordered to be printed.
NEW SOUTH WALES.

Sir J. MACKINTOSH then presented unothtwi petition of
a more public nature, from a Merchant and inhabitant of New
South Wales, complaining of a Bill now before the House,
which, as the petitioner alleged, went to deprive that colony of
its most important privileges. By the 4th, Oth, and 44th clauses,
it was intended to take away the right of trial by jury, anti Sub-
stitute a sort of court-martial, which was most fallaciously
called a jury. The. third clause gave the Governor a power of
arbitrarily sending any one who might be objectionable to hint
to Great Britain, away from his family, friends, and business,
upon his own bare surmise, or the information of an unknown
accuser, without the pretence of trial. The petitioner prayed
to be heard by counsel against the Bill, and he (Sir J. 31ackin-
nub) only wohed to know, before going farther into his state-
ment, whether or not there would be any objection to granting
that prayer of the petition. Because, if the Hon. Gentleman
opposite opposed that part of the .petition, it would be incum-
bent upon him to go more at large into* merits of the case
than he felt inclined otherwise to do.'
31r. wiLmoT said, to save time, be would state that there
were the strongest objections to allowing the prayer of the pa..
titian.

Sir J. MACKINTOSH said, that being the case, he was
bound to awaken the attention of the House to the interests of
a colony of growing importance to this country, whose present
rights and future destinies were to be most usaterially effected
by the Bill in question. There was a larger European popu-
lation in New Smith Wales than (by the computation uf Mr.
Bryan Edwards) was now contained' in the whole of Asia. It
was the solemn duty of Parliament to take care that the insti-
tution of a settlement likely to attain to a high degree of,politi-
cal consequence should not be endangered by associating ty-
ranny and despotism with their infancy. Let them remeniber
what had been the fate of America. By imparting early the
tree institutions of this country to them, the States of America
had risen to a degtee of power, which, for the rapidity.of its
grOwdt and its greatness, was unequalled among mankind.
•Let it not be pretended that it was not the intention of this Go-
vernmeut to give trial by jury to New South Wales. The
contrary expectation had been held out by Governor Hunter,
and after him byy Governors Bligh, Bent, and Macquturie..
Neither could it be pretended that the settlement could net
furnish a sufficient number of qualified persons front among
:whom. juries could be formed: There were 300 landholders
settled there, having between 80 and 60 acres each. The new
regulation went to compose the juries of a majority of naval.
and military officers from those who might happen to be on the
station. It was plain that there might occur a deficiency of
members on account of the regulations of the service, or the
penicillin stations of the ships, while no such Circumstance
could be dreaded with respect to the landholders. Ile parti-
cularly complained of the clause Which gave the Governor
the power of arbitrary removal in charges of sedition and trea-
son, which he was at liberty to keep secret ; and without trial
or hearing of any kind,—without making known even the na-
ture of the charge,--he could transport any one away *am his
business, family, and connections, to Greatiliitain. Ile called
upon, the House, if they wished to show that they deserved the
name of a British House of Commons, to show their abhor-
rence of regulations so arbitrary. It was the abhorrence of ar-.
•liitrary principles which had given .to this country all her power,
-wealth, and influence, among the nations of the World. Here
was a power to be given to the Governor of this colony,, which
was now almost unknown even in eivillied despotisma, and
which was Only used in the more barbaroos tyrannies. If the
exercise of arbitrary power were to be dreaded any where,
would be in a settlement like that of New South Wales, Which
Was too remote for the effectual interferenee of the parental
Government. , It hail been said that it'cOuld be no matter, be-
cause in New South Wales there were none But emancipated
convicts. That was the very reason why he would be more
jealous of the use of arbitrary power by the Governor. The
very argument sheweti that a feeling already existed injurious
to the claims of juatice, which' he would have udministered
with stricter impartiality, if possible from the consideration of
the owe and condition from which the greater part of the
Pontdation had risen. lie would make the equal admini-
titration of justice one of the greatest encouragements to them
in departing from the- irregularities of their past lives 'to be-
coilio useful and moral members of a civil conmunity. it
Was his intention, after the petition was disposed of„ to move
that Counsel be heard in support of the petition on the next day
of discussion upon the 1411, which he believed would he on
Friday next,
Mr. WILMOT HORTON, would have wished that the
lion. and Learned fintlemart had reserved his observations
for the regular bisign of discnssing die itiii; instead of inciden-
tally arguing tile merits of the, quostion upon a petition. Tbc,
lion. tiendemau must excuse at this moment, wittti he de-
clined
hinntwo ftolliopwrosoviienteionavreptiriaectitticazacptliiiiyilth,w7tthoe
tillieoscrlyissotystifliui
Zritish Constuttum, and the institution of trial by jury, to a

state of colonial society so essentially different from that et the-
parent countr, where such privi4es were justly enjoyed -and
estimated. lie would support this Bill, and object to the ap-
plication for hearing counsel.
Mr. BRIGHT contended that as thp petitioners complained
of the non-introduction the privileNot trial by jury, their
case was entitled to the serious consideration of the House, as
they were applying for the enjoyment of a • privilegewhich wa4
essential,in his judgment, to the security of their freedom, and
the attainment of their prosperity. The real question in this
case was, whether the colony was to remain to them trustful
auxiliary, or to be -a source of inquietude and danger. .The
,principle of the colonial government ought to be to amalgamate
the classes of society in the- colony; and what better mode 'of
doing so could be devised, than securing for them that inva-
luable privilege which brought the rich anti the poor into an
honourable contact of free action ?

Mr. :II AlfkiafthotghtTtimportant that time should be
allowed for ascertaining whether this Bill was really as •per's
as it ought to be; He knew that much might be said on both
sides respecting the 'lntroduction of trial by jury into the co-
lony but there , were other arrangements mttered indispens-
able by the rising condition of the colony, from the efforts of
settlers and'others, who were engaged in important establish-
ments, which ought to be free from harsh and inipolitic .re- •
strietions.

Mt. FORBES defe.ndcd the goVernment of Governor Mac.,
quarriei. and censured the Reportof Counnissioner Biggi ;To
which this impolitic Bill was founded. The instructions 'given
by Government to the Commissioner .ought to be pi N./need, for'
the purpose of showing how far he had fultnigd them. lIC was
for hearing Counsel upon the petition.
Mr. R. COLBORNE defended the conduct and character''
of Commissioner Bigg, than whom he said there never wuk a
purer or better man—one who was not recommended to Earl
Bathurst by personal interest, but selected on account of the
enlightened manner in which he had performed his judicial
functions at Trinidad.

Mr. FounEs and Mr. R. Comlciasrr: Mutually explained,
and the petition was laid on the table.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH, in rising to move that the petitioner
should be heard by Counsel at the liar, called the attention-of
the Houtte,to the importance of this fact—that if the Bill sh!,iuld
pass with the clauses which it at present contained, eight
thousand freemen were liable to be transported without trial,
and at the mere will of the Governor. If the House should,
after this statement, refuse to hear the Counsel of persons who
had so deep an interest in the measure, let the fault lie with the
House. }or his own part, he would enter a pmtical protest
against such a proceeding, and would call fora division, even
though ho should stand alone; for he thought it a duty to do
all in his power to prevent what he must think disgracefol.—
He concluded by moving that the petitioners be heard by their
Counsel in the Committee on Friday nett.
31r. WILMOT BORTON 'supported the clause to which
the Hon: and Learned Gentleman had alluded : he contended
that instead of 0,000 freemen, less than so many hundred per.:
sons would be affected by it, and its operation would be to
prevent those who had suffered the punishment inflicted by.
their country. upon their crimes from taking any part which
might prove injurious to the interests of the colony. He pro-
posed to explain more fully, when the Bill should Come into
Committee, the necessity for reserving this power to the Exe-
cutive Government.

Mr. HUME wished to know whether the law contemplated
that the punishment of transportation for a term should extend
beyond the duration of the sentence, and take from the cri.
mina, after the punishment had been inflicted, those rights to
which, as an Englishman, he was entitled ?
Mr. MARRIr AT said, the only question Was, Whether the
House should see with its own eyes, and judge for itself, or
rely wholly upon the Executive Government for the justice and
policy of. the measutes which were..proposed, lie had every
confidence in the Right Hon. Gentleman's integrity, but he
thought that because he was so well entitled to that confidence,
he ought to be the first person to accede to the present motion.
If the arguments of Counsel, when they came to be heard,
were insufficient, he could triumphantly refitte them ; and if
they were likely to prevail, surely that could not be urged as a
reason against hearing them.
The House then divided, and the numbers appeared to be—
For the motion, 47 f Against it, no
On our return to 'the gallery, we found Mr. MABERLY
presenting a Petition from Thomas Haltard, of Queen-street,
Edgware-road, complaining that be was on the 3d of march
arrested on a false charge of high treason, and committed
to Tothill-fields Bridowell, hot not prosecuted. The petitioner
stated that he had sustained various losses to the amount of
and prayed a recompense.--,On the Petition being brought
up and read,
The SPEAKER asked whether it had the concurrence of
the Ministers of the Crown ? • Ile observed, that the Petition
asked distinctly for a sum of moneys•and could not therefore he
received, pursuant to the forms of Parliament, without such
concurrence.

Mr. MA PERLY replied, that he had not the Consent of the
Ministers ; and after a short conversation between the SPEAK:rt.
and Mt. HUMII, Mr. MAMMY withdrew the Petition.
A message was received Front the Lords, stating that thilt
Lordships had passed several Mills.

CAPTURE OF TIIE SHIP REQUIN.
Mr. F. BUXTON 'rose for the purpose of moving, that the
papers On the table relative to the capture of this ship should byl
referred to a Special Committee ; at the same time he propOsetl;
with the permission of the House, to lay before it a statement
of the claims of 111 r. Ogilvie, by whom the vessel had actually
been taken. In the year 11114 the British army, under Lord,
Iteresford, who was then second in command to Lord Dalhousie,
became masters of Bordeaux. Lord Beresford directed Mr.
Ogilvie, in the execution of his duty as a CounnissariarsOficer,
to proceed to take possession of the ships in the river, and: to
secure them. That gentleman proceeded to execute this Wilk..
It:anion, and had„discharged it, when the clerk suggested to
hint that vessels sometimea. lay lower down the river ; upon
which, Mr. Ogilvie, having engaged ten French Royalist sai.
lors, directed them to row down the river.. When he had pro.
seeded about-two miles, he discovered, on turning the angle of
the stream, two vessels lying near the shore, one of which teas
a ship of war, and the other a merchantman. The sailors fit.
mediattly recognized the first to be an American privateer,
which had been very successful agoiost the ',English merchant
vessels, and the other to be an .English merchantman. Ur.
Ogilvie immediately retired behind a neck of land ; and here
he (Mr. Buxton) was. ready to admit, that but for. some itirthtT
information which Alr. Ogilvie received, he would not have,
attempted tlie capture. But jitst at this moment he saw bthi4
put oil' from the shore, which he took, and found in it the AM,.
ner rtf the Rerinin, from whom he gadierettlhat the ship's tartlet
had been very much diminished; and that it did not then emoting
to more than 15 or 20 persons. The attempt to take the vessel
even under these circumstances was extremely tilaartititis, but
neVertheless resolved upon it. Ile promised a con.
siderable reward to the men, and taking the helm himself; he
.proceeded te the vessel. Ills approach was not perceived ; he
sprung on deck, and called out to the crew surrenden—.
They, supposing they were attacked by a considerable forci,
ran below, and shortly after the captain cane up unanned, and
surrendered to. Mr. Ogilvie, who ordered the crew' into his awn
b.qat, and in a quarter of an hour the vessel was in his posses,.
mon ; one wounded sailor and the Captain being alone left on
board the .Requi rt. Mr. Ogilvie then directed his clerk to pro-
ceed with the boat and the prisoners' to Bordeaux,, and to re,
turn with a sufficient force to carry up the vessel. Mr. Ogilvie
was then lett alone on hoard the Requist, where he rernamed
for four hours, until the boat returned with some soldiers, il4lO,
whose possession he put the ship, and went bock to florSeitii,
During this time, he was lying within 100 yards of the shores,
and 150 yards of the village of Lomont, where a tietaehmeet of
the enemy's cavalry wits stationed ; and if they had had -tito
slightest intimation of thtl affair, nothing.could hove been neore
easy than to recapture the.ahip. On los return to Bordeaux,l
Genend POnsonhy examined-the A titerican officer, who rutted
that he was lit dinner, and that his men were employed is
lightening the vessel ;. that he' hail captured the English mer...
regttirtd any ct+r;f r.
"d juttlairtn:ciyckt:splyor,thai:::e
'motion of it, lie was able to afford the fullest (Ii the testimonials
which had been borne to his charocter Itsr officers of the highest
ethileanotitnitlainne' 401c'titillieltactied;lb%Ptuit.f t:'el4lotti)see
respeetabilitv. The lion. Member awn rets4 testimonials fists
ewriltt,i,rn:l4vspito,kethner
(.0'1%11;7, too frotnii,o4-4tctim
ottfrek7. 7),
hl:)..uov;iit.t!..ribilifteiit
Ponsonity
Hittttitl btehts.tdritetrhaliatlouLViZ.!l:vo bor„rt,
raid
ow
ship
niiixt,
thcriifore have been taken thunext.day, he had to oppose to
this the fact that 20 sail of Illereboltl3l6 did actually escxpe after
There were
_two vie .its which this nußht loss
jrS ft. Arbuthmit,
In the lint case it was usual far the A dntirMty. to award
(t.lo`,Lll±Bc;':ll,l"lrie.:_either as a rou of the Admiralty, or 4115 booty,,
portion., from half to 9.loths of the value, to the tc-,tptors

..the other, It had been the practice in the army to -divide thel
value among the captors, pursuant to the orders of the Duke of.
Wellington. The Hon. Member mentioned several instances
of these customs. He wished only that Mr. Ogilvie should be
treated in the same manner as other officeri had been and on
either of those points would he rest his case. He had no inte-
rest with him,,,but he was anxious that a gentleman who had
risked his life in an enterprise in which he had succeeded, should
receive the reward due to his exertions. lie concluded by
moving that the papers be referred to a Select committee, for
the- purpose of inquiring into the justice of that Gentleman's

-
claini.
Colonel KING (as we were informed), in a speech which he
stated to be the first he had delivered in Parliament, seconded
the motion, and bore testimony of the valuable services and
good conduct of Mr.-Ogilvie, with whom he had served during
the Peninsular war. He ended by calling upon the House to

do justice to his claims.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCII EQUEIIi in opposing
the motion, had no wish to detract from lir. Ogilvie le merit,
either as commissary, or in the transaction now alluded to.—
't'he question for the House to decide was, whether, having cap-
tueed the vessel, he was entitled to receive the proceeds. In
the first place, when he proceeded in the execution of .his duty
to secure the vessels lying in the river, they had become the
property of the British. At that very time there were 12,000
.13ritish soldiers in Bordeaux ; there were British vessels at the
muuth of the Garonne, and it was quite clear, from his own
account, that the _Unpin, so far from intending to tight, was
skulking in shore, and trying to escape. Mr. Ogilvie slid
certainly take the vessel by a coup de main in a very mess.
turious way, but then the crew were terrified out of their
'win!, and the enterprise was not practically so hazardous
as in the recital it might seem to be. But it was not
upon this ground alone that his (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer's) objection rested. Mr. Ogilvie was entitled, in
right of his standing as a Commissary. to receive the same
proportion of prize-money as a Major. The booty had been es.
tuntited, and ainongother things this same ship had been includ-
ed, valued by Mr. Ogilvie and Major Eckcrsly at 18,000!. 'The
total amount of the booty was stated at 800,000/., of which Mr.
Ogilvie bad received his share. The Right Hon. Gentleman
then read extracts from letters of the Duke of Wellington, in
echieP he bore testimony to Mr. Ogilvie's merits but denied
the justice of his claim in the present instance, antic that it could
. be supported by his orders of the army. The Right Hon.
•Gentlenien said, that as lie could not see any fair grounds for
the claim, he must oppose the motion.
After a short conversation between Mr. FluittE, the CRAW-
C. 113.1.011 of the EXCII EQUEIt, and Colonel Devito,
Mr. BUXTON replied, when the House divided on the
Motion, the numbers being—
Ayes„ 19 I Noes, 40 I Majority against it, 21.
On our re-admission to the gallery, we tound
Mr. S. RICE urging the proceeding with the inquiry into
the conduct of the Chief Baron of the Exchequer in Ireland,
on which he wished to move certain resolutions, which would
take up little of the time of the House.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, if he
chnsplted his' private feelings, he could have no objection to
postponing his statement of the Budget ; but as it was of great
nnportance to the public Interest, he thought it ought not to be
preceded by any other business. As he should call for no vote
but on the appropriation clause, he could not suppose it would
occupy any great portion of time.
A conversation ensued on this subject, in which Mr. Hume,
Mr. B. Smith, Mr. Rice, and Mr. Canning took part ; after
which the cries for the Chancellor o' the Exchequer bcame
loud, and he rose.
THE BUDGET.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he felt
that, on every account, it was incumbent on, him to compress
his observations into as narrow is compass as possible. He
knew how much the House had been fatigued for many
nights, by labours almost unprecedented, and which he must
'be allowed to have felt as heavily as any one ; and it would be
unpardonable in bins it' he did not do his best to abridge, on
the present occasion, the trouble which they must undergo. He
should, therefore, proceed with what was essential to the
exposition to the statement he had to lay before them. As in
the early part of the Session he had explained the situation
of the nation's finances, and the measures which it was the
duty of his Majesty's Government to recommend, which
measures had since been carried into effect, it was not now ne-
cessary for him to recapitulate the observations he had made
on that occasion. It was his duty then to state the aggregate
of the revenue and of the expences ; to lay before the
House the votes for the supply which they would be called
upon to furnish, and the measures which Parliament rdiculd
adopt for meetieg that supply. He stated to the House at the
commeneernent of the Session, that he believed the amount of
the supply which Parliament would becallzd upon to vote would
be 16,000,000 i., but tie had now to inform the Mousse that
that sum would be exceeded by between 2 and 300,000!. Ile
would explain how this excess had arisen. It had not arisen in
the estimates for the army, navy, or ordnance, but under the
head of miscellaneous estimates, and was occasioned by va-
rious items which did not enter into hit calculation when he
made hie former statement. The largest of these items was
one of 60,0001. for the stationary office, which was trcated in
consequence of a new arrangement, which, in future, would
conduce largely to economy in that department. It had been
fertnerly the practice for each of the public departments topre-
vide themselves with stationery, almost ad libitum. That
syeteni was now entirely altered? and the public offices
were litnited to particular descriptions of stationery, and to
a certain amount. It was expected that by this arrangement
the expellee of supplying the public departments would be con-
siderably diminished. Although the vote required under the
head of stationery would appear to be increased, there would
really be a diminution of expence to a considerable extent, he-
cause some departments used, by the old arrangement, to charge
for it under the head of contingencies. The new arrangement
would not come ineo full operation during the present year, be-
cause die military and naval departments had already been pro-
yeded with stationery by the estimates. Various other items
had occasioned the excess which he had before alluded to.
One of thew was the grant arising out ()Nile present which his
Najeety had made to the public of his library ; another was
the aunt of 4,0001. on account of Dunleary harbour; and 'an-
other the vote of 16,000/. for assisting the emigration fromthe
south of Ireland to Canada, &c. He was happy, however,
ea be able to state, that, whilst there was such an excess bee
yoed the calculation which he had made in the suppliers, there
was at the, same time a more than corresponding increase in
the ways and means to meet it. The total supplies voted on
account of the Army, Navy, Ordnance, and Miscellaneous Es-
Ur-Antes, and the interest on Exchequer Bills, for the present
year, amounted to 16,976,7431. To meet this sum there were
the Annual Malt-tax, 3,000,0001. ; on account of the Lottery,
240,0001. ; repayment by Exchequer Bill Loan Commissioners,
116,873/. • on account of the arrangement for the payment of
the Naval Military Pensions, 4,600,000/. ; to be paid
fly the East India Company on account of the half-pay of his
Mejeety'e forces employed in India, 90,000/. Ile would
trouble the House with a few observations respecting the last
item 0f,00,0001. It had appeared to die Government that it was
fair that the East India Company should take upon themselves
some portion of the expence of the half-pay of the troops which
wile employed in India for their benefit. It was but jute
dee to the Company to say that they at once acknowledged the
justice of the claim. The question then was, what portion of
the helf-pay and pensions should the Company discharge? It
would have been unfair to have charged them with the whole
of it, because many of the individuals composing the corps
might have been wounded and entitled to compensation on
that account before they proceeded to India. After some discus-
ahni„ an arrangement was come to satisfactory to both parties,
by whiArthe East India Company undertook to pay annually the
*aim et' 60;0001. on account of the half-pay and pee:duns. The
rsswasi vote--fer the support of_tne forces in India appeared,
• it/ the army estimates of the present year, becauSe the arrange-
, inept was not made pistil the supply had been voted. Next year,
liewever, that vote might be deducted in the same intoner as
votes on account of stares, and disposed of in any other Manner.
The Company had given thin year 00,0001. instead of 80,0110/.,
Weenie,: it 'had been determined that the arrangement sinned
take effect from.the tat of May, 1820.. Ile would now proceed
with his enumeration of the items composing the gross sum
which was in meet the 10,976,743/. Which had been voted
for the estimates. The surplus of ways and means amounted to
41i9,0471. This surplus arose out of grants voted in tinnier years.
whicirOovernment had not found it necessary to call for.—
There was =tan item of 8,700,0001. furnished by the surplue
Of the consolidated fund. It was a long time since the House
had heard any -thing said 'of a. surplus of the consolidated
farad..--(lfear, and laughter.)—lt was extremely gratifying•ao
. him, that his was, the first persons who had, for several
yeas, been able ' tie state that there was a Surplus of the con-
oliiated fund, and to a large amount. The circumstance of
densurplus bung so large—lndeed of its existing at all—was to
he attributed to the arrangement which Parliament had sanc-
tioned during the' present Session with respect to the sinking..
fund, the effect of which was to reduce the charge on the eons°.
lieated filed to precisely the amount of the sinking fund. Add-
ing together all the items of waysand means which he had stated,
they would be found to amount to 17,385,920/. ; being a sur-
plus of ways and means' aver the supplies of 409,1771. Of
tins surplus 244,1501. would be applied to the diminution of
the unfunded debt. It wits a , very gratifying circumstance
to have something in band.--([tear, hear, and laughter.)—He
.did not think it adviseable to accommodate the receipt to the
expenditure so nicely as- to render the Government liable to
inconv,enience in the event of any sudden emie unexpected de-
- crease of revenue taking place.—(llear!)—lle would take that
opportunity of obeervinte, that he thought it probable that the
operation of the Distilleries Bill, which rives at present in pro-
fits» would. be to' product in hike
first instance a temporary

diminution of income; 'but he was persuaded that the ultimate
effect of that measure would be directly opposite. He was en-
titled to declare that the House might expect an additional sur-
plus beyond-that which-he had stated as the amount. He had
made his estimate of the amount of the surplus of the consoli.
dated fund, upon the supposition that the assessed tax es, amount.
ing t 02,200,000/. which had been repealed during the present
session, would be lest to the revenue for the current year.-
That, however, would not lie the case, because there were nearly
three quarters of assessed taxes due prior to the repeal. But
as he was not able to form a precise estimate of the amount
of those taxes, he had not considered himself justified in in-
cluding them in the ways and means. He only mentioned the
circumstance 'to show the Committee that there was no reason to
fear a falling off 'in .the revenue. Perhaps the Committee"
would excuse hini for occupying a few moments in directing its
attention to the state of the revenue at the present moment, in
order that it might be seen whether the view which he had
taken of the finances of the country, at the commencement of
the Session had proved correct.-( Hear !)-He had, Upon that
occasion, entertained. sanguine hopes of the increase of the
revenue; and he now was happy to say, that so far from being
disappointed in his expectations, it would appear before he came
to the end of his statement, that he had formerly underrated the
financial resources of the country.-(Hear !)-He hail by him
the account of the customs of the present year, from the sth of
January up to the '2llth of June, and also an account of the
customs of last year, from the sth of January to the sth of July.
The latter account, it would be seen, included the whole half
year ; but the farther account did not include the eight last
days of the half year, and it was well known, and he hoped
that the Committee would bear it in mind, that the latter days
of a quarter were by no means the least productive.-( Hear,
hear !).-The amount of the customs from the sth of January
to the 20th 'Of Jime in the present year was 4,026,661/. In ad-
dition to that sum, there were hills and cash to 'be transferred to
the customs to the amount of 79,191/. It had also been calcu-
lated that the customs received during the remaining days of
the current half year-namely, from the 28th of June to the sth
of July.-would amount to 16,0001. per diem, or 80,000/. alto.
gether. It would appear, therefore, that 'the customs of the.
present half year would make a total of 4,185,8521. The account
which he held in his hand showed that the customs of the cor-
responding halt' year in 1822 were 4,045,987/. But in this sum
were included•66,oool. tonnage duties, which had been repeal-
ed, and therefore did not form any part of the customs of
the present half-year. Ile thought he was entitled to deduct'.
that 66,0001. from the account of 1822, which would then
stand at 3;079,987/. Taking that as the total amount of the
customs of the half-year in 1822, and he thought he was justi-
fied in doing so (hear, hear !), it would be seen that there was
a balance of 205,8651. in favour of the present half-year. From
the information which he had collected, lie was satisfiad that
the rate of increase would not be diminished at the end of the
year. The receipts in the Excise department for the current
half year were not less satisfactory. than those of the customs.
The receipts upon a great many articles of excise, up to the Ist of
July of the present half-year, already exceeded those upon the
same articles in the corresponding hal f y ear of 1822. Upon other
articles, the receipts in the present half year were less than those
in 1822;' but he had no doubt that the deficiency would be made
up before the sth of the month arrived. The amount of the Ex-
else revenue for the first half of the year 1822 was 12,125,1361.
The amount actually received in the present year up to the Ist
of July was 10,571,031/. The payments which would he mad-
from the Ist to the sth of July were estimated at 658,0001., make
ing the total revenue of the present half year 11,221,0811. It
appeared at first sight that there had been a deficiency in the re-
ceipts of the current half year as compared with the corresponding
period in 1822 of 896,0551. ; but it was necessary to recollect,
that since the account of 1822 had been made up several excise
duties had been reduced.' For instance, the duties upon hides
had been reduced to the amount of 135,6881. ; the reduction of
the duty upon malt, including 270,000/. repayment on account
of stock in hand, amounted to 450,637/. ; the reduction upon
salt was 465,650/. making a total reduction of 1,051,8751. If
that sum were added to the receipts of the present half year,
there would appear an increase of 155,8201., and if the sum of
27,000/. had not been repaid on account of stock in hand, the
increase in the revenue would have been 425,8201. In addition
to the flattering account of those two important branches of
revenue, he had reason to believe that the receipts of the stamp
duties would be considerably augmented as compared with
those of 1022. In consequence of the prosperous state of reve-
nue which afforded a clear surplus ofincome over expenditure,
the country had been able to apply itself to the gradual reduc-
tion of its debt. He would state what progress had been made
in the reduction of the debt during the present year. On the
sth 'uf January, 1823, the unredeemed debt unmounted to
7911,530,1441. The following account would show to what ex-
tent it had been reduced from the 6th of January to the 30th of
June, by the Commissioners for its reduction :--
By Sinking Fund I refainaad " " 41,834,535
172,3112
Transferred for Lite Annuities - 334,063
Ditto Land-tax, estimated 24,000
Ditto unclaimed 10 years - - 14,432
Purchased 'with ,Unclaimed Dividends - 19,100
English Debt, decreased by capital transferred 1 797,138
to the debt in Ireland -

3,196,470
Deduct Irish Debt increased by capital trans-1
797,1311
tarred from England . -

Total redeemed

1:2.3419,332

- . .
The amount of debt remaining untedeemed was 794,130,0121.
It was necessary to observe, that whilst the reduction which he
bad stated was going on, no corresponding addition had been
made to the debt..—(Hear, hear!)—The reduction which had
been effected was clear reduction. Besides the capital redeemed
and transferred as above, there was paid to the Bank, towards
the redemption of Exchequer Bills, per 3 Geo. IV. cap. 06—
January 8, 1823 - - X 340,000
April 0 - - 340,000
To be paid July 5 - - - 340,000

1,020,000
Thus it appearel that there had been a clear reduction of
debt to the amount of upwards of 3,000,000/. The Committee
was aware that it was the custom to issue deficiency bills
to meet the demands .on the Consolidated Fund. On the
11th of January, l 8 3, the Deficiency Bills amounted to
5,920,3541. ; but on the sth . of April, the period when the
last account was made up, they had been reduced -to
3,793,291/. There was a reduction, therefore, of more than
2,000,0001. under that head. Whilst this reduction of debt had
been in progress, the Government had also effected a consider-
able reduction of taxation. Perhaps the Committee would not
be unwilling to hear the extent to which the reduction of taxa-
tion had been carried during the last two years, for he would
confine himself to that period. If the Hon. Gentleman op-
posite chose to attribute the diminution of taxation to their
exertions—(clead )—he would nut dispute with them. He
would not contend fur the merit of the act : it Was sufficiently
gratifying to him to know,- that notwithstanding the Govern.
ment had made great sacrifices of revenue, yet nevertheless the
resources of the country were so solid and substantial, that they
enabled the Government to provide amply for the public ser-
vice, and at the same time to effect a progressive reduction of
the debt.—(Cheers.)—"Within the last two years reductions had
taken place of the undermentioneci taxes, to the following
amount :

Husbandry horses
Malt
Salt -
Hides
Assessed Taxes
Ditto,; Ireland, about -
Tonnage Duty -
- Windows—lreland -
Spirits—lreland -
Ditte—Scotland

. . . £480,000
. - - 1,400,000
. - - - 1,296,000
. - . 300,000
- . - 2,300,000
- . 100,900
- 164,000
. ~ - 180,000
_ _ 380,000
. - 340,400

£li,o3ll.ooo
Reductions had also been effected upon minor items of taxation,
which, though unimportant in amount, were of great benefit to
the parties by whom those taxes had been paid. He alluded to
all the reductions to be found in the bill in progress relative to
customs. One of the most important parts of the Bill was that
which provided for the reduction of the duty on stone carried"
coastwise. He might also advert to another circumstance which
would diminish the amount of taxation—he meant the repeal of
the union duties lit Ireland. It could not be denied that the
repeal of those duties would be prejudicial to the interests of
some persons, but it would enable the people of Ireland to obtain
some articles of British produce 10 per cent. below the price
which they at present paid for them. If the smaller items of re.
tluction to which he had thus briefly alluded were added to the
sum which he had before stated, it would make a total of about
seven millions anti a half. lle wished to say a few words with
respect to Ireland. No one could look at the manner in which
Parliament had conducted itself with respect to the taxation of
Ireland, without being convinced that whatever differences of
opinion might exist with respect to the moral and political
causes which operated in that country to produce misfortunes
which it was painful to dwell upon, in a fiscal point of view
at least, it had givan a most liberal attention to the wants
of that unhappy country.—(Hear, bear, hear I)_Among other
measures connected with the finances, he might advert to some
Bills which had passed through the House without comment—
a proof that their princitile was approved—for uniting the
Boards of Customs and bionic, and assimilating the practice
in both countries.—(Hear!)—The effect of those Bills would
be no less advantageous to merchants than to the public in
general. He did not know that he had now any thing farther
to state to the Committee. He did not feel justified in saying
any thing with respect to the future ; but lie might be allowed

to say that he considered the revenue in a flourishing condition.
He thought, too, that no man could doubt that the finances
of the country were in a state of progressive improvement.
—Under these circumstances, he could not but anticipate
that. Government might be enabled to extend the princi-
ple of reduction of taxation, still further than it had been
already carried—(Cheers.)—Government would do all that
could be done to reduce taxation, provided it was not over-
pressed.—( Here, hear, and laughter.)—He was not ashamed to
avow that in his opinion theories which every body allowed
to be unobjectionable, might, when they were attempted to
be carried into practice too rapidly with respect to such an enor-
mous concern as the revenue of this country, be productive of
the greatest mischief.—(Hear, hear!)—lf Government were
allowed to proceed in a moderate course, he had very little
doubt that it would find, in consequence of the acts of reduc.
thin which had taken place, the means of extending relief from
taxation further. lie felt it to he his duty not to say any thing
more specific on the subject. lie was aware that many Hon.
Members had, during the present session, directed the attention
of Government to several taxes of great importance, which
they desired to obtain the repeal ot'. Some of the taxes which
had thus been alluded to were of very great importance, con-
nected as they were with the necessity of preventing smug-
gling.. lie felt that he would be doing wrong if he were at
that moment to express any opinion with respect to the repeal
of these taxes. Ile Would, therefore, content himself with
the declaration of the general principle on which Government
was desirous of proceeding. He was glad to have received from
the House the most liberal support of the views which he and
the rest,' of' his Majesty's Alinisters had entertnined ; and he
trusted that the House had no reason to think that their support
had been improperly bestowed.—(Cheers.)—He had taken pains
to ascertain the feelings of the country with respect to the course
of policy which Ministers had pursued, and he found that the
people generally were completely satisfied with it. and as long
as that was the case he should also be satisfied.—(Great cheer-
ing.)—The Right Hon. Gentleman sat down after moving a
Resolution which he put into the Chairman's hand without
reading it ; we are therefore unable to state its import.
Mr. MAI3ERLEY, after complimenting the Chancellor of
the Exchequer upon the statement which he had made to the
Committee, and which he described as extremely candid, called
the attention of the Right lion. Gentleman to the subject of the
debt which Austria owed to this country. Ile had heard it re-
ported, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had entered into
an arrangement with the Austrian Government, by which this
country was to receive 2,400,0001. or 3,000,0001. in lieu of the
whole debt which was due from that Government. He wished
to know whether the facts, as reported, were correct ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that all
he was at liberty to state in reply to the Hon.-Member was, that
the British Government had entered into negociations with that
of Austria with respect to the debt which Austria owed to this
country, and that at present those negociations were not con-
cluded.
Mr. HLTME objected to no part of the Right lion. Gentle-
man's arrangements, except that with respect to the Military
and Naval Pensions, by which the public had lost considerably.
He thought, also, that it would have been better to have re-
mitted taxation to the amount of the Sinking Fund.
After a short conversation, in which Mr. ROBERTSON, Mr.
HusxissON, and the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
participated, the Resolution was agreed to, the House resumed,
and the Report was ordered to be receivedto-morrow.
Mr. GRATTAN postponed hismotion relative to a cor-
respondence between his 111ajesty's Government and certain
parishes in Ireland.
CHIEF BARON O`,GBADY.
Mr. S. RICE moved time Order of the Day for going into a
Committee upon the conduct of the Chief Baron O'Grady.
Mr. HUSKISSON expressed a hope that the lion. Member
would postpone his motion- for the. present.
Mr. S. RICE said, that the Hon. Member might, if he
pleased, move the other Orders of the Day as an amendment,
but he could not so far desert his duty as to give up a discus-
sion, the bringing on of which had to a certain degree been
forced noon him.
Mr. GRATTAN said, that lie had given way, with the ex-
press understanding that his Hon. Friend (Mr. Spring Rice's)
motion was to corns on.
Mr. C. 11. HUTCHINSON strongly opposed going this
Session into this inquiry, the effect of which would be to leave
and distinguished Judge.
for several months a charge banging over the head of an ho-
nourableMr. CANNING saw no objection to going into the inquiry.
In his view of the case, the Resolutions proposed to be entered
upon the Journals, conveyed nothing like a censure upon the
conduct of the Learned Judge ;—in fact, the Resolutions went
no further than to state, that two Committees of the House of
Commons had repeated the charges made in the 9th and 11th
Reports of the Commission of Inquiry, without in any instance
expressing on opinion with respect to those charges.
Air. S. RlCadefended the course which had been taken
with respect to this measure.
Mr. WETHERELL contended, that, under the present cir-
CnlllStaliCeS of the case, the inquiry ought not to be proceeded
in. He strongly condemned the introduction of any measure
which could only have the effect of-hanging over the head of a
Judge for nine months (and that, too, upon an hypothetical
case) is series of ebarges,, from which he must necessarily for
that period be unable to relieve himself.
111 r. WYNN said, it was not in the character of an act of
criminal judicature, but as a part of the duties of the House, as
a grand inquest, that he had consented to the. inquiry. He
prejudice would result to the Chief
or a seet esothlUit any
Resolution that such and such facts had been
couldbaron not
fr on I
reported to exist by a Committee or Commission,_ further than
what actually resulted from the existence of those Reports.
n opinion as to the facts. It was
tiltise°lewtter of the Chief Baron, he referred
Ile should certainly have,preferred that the House should have
tboe ehne ripe
rt ov
epdr,otnhoautnicne
to the facts mentioned in the Reports in question, and not to
any Resolution before the House. As the majority of Mem.
hers were not yet prepared to vote on the facts, he should vote
for the Committee.
Mr. BANKES wished to hear the Resolutions read, with
which the Hon. Member for Limerick intended to follow up
his Resolutions of fact.
S. RICE said, he had followed up the Resolutions of
fact by Resolutions of inference, which, however, as the gene-
nil opinion of the House was against. putting any such infer-
ence on the Journals, he did not intend to ress. Ile would,
however (with this explanation), read the Resolutions he had
Intended to propose. The Hon. Member then read the 11th
and 12th Resolutions to this effect
" 11. It is thus stated by the Commission, that the emolu-
ments of the Chief Baron have been increased by the intro-
duction of new, and the extension of ancient fees, and that
successive Committees of the House have declared their con-

currence in these facts. •
" 12. That the power of creating and augmenting fees, thus
exercisedbeyrethi
he, Cishiihecfoßhsairsotnehatt
whiitshotahne
rediscretion,liortedt
hhea v
beinge.b e been
teresteti
t h
. •
Laws and Constitution of this realm.'
These Resolutions, he repeated, he did not now mean to press.
Mr. BANKES could see no benefit resulting from the plac-
ing Resolutions (as was now proposed) of mere fact upon the
Journals. especially at a time. when the state of the Session
prevented any ulterior measure from being founded on them.
Phis course of proceeding was rendered the more objectionable
from the high station Of, the individual who would be thus in
point of fact inculpated. - It was not in their power, indeed, to
remove all suspicions from the character of the Chief Baron ;
at all events it was desirable, till a charge was regularly made,
that so high a judicial character, who must of necessity con-
iinue to discharge his duties, should not be further inculpated.
The matter should be taken up as early as possible in the next
Session, KO that i.t might be brought to a termination ; but he
thoughtit highly objectionable to put Resolutions an the Jour-
nals which, after all, might never be followed up.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL denied that any extraor-
dinary delay had taken place in the proceeding, as the second
commission had been necessary to obtain information. Ile had
strong objections to the motion, as it was introductory to a
censure which neither the Report of the Commissioners, nor
of the Committees, warranted them in pronouncing. It was
not doubted that the Courts had the power to Increase the fees
of their inferior officers. Lord Erskine had exercised the
power, by increasing, on his own authority, when Chancellor,
the fees of all the inferior officers of his Court, The Commis-
sioners, in their fifth Report, declared that they could not give
an opinion on the power of Judges to increase their own fees,
but they reported that it had been the practice of the Courts
of Ireland within the last 100 years to do so. It had been done
both by the King's Bench and Common Pleas. Was it not
cruel then, when such had been the practice, that the. Chief
Baron (even supposing he had committed an error of
ijudgment)
should be persecuted for it, especially considering tie trifling
amount of the matter in question ? In 'the next Session he
would willingly enter into an investigation, but lie strongly
.
objected to the course proposed.
lightA byBERCROM BY said the matter had been put In its
true
the Right lion. Secretary (sir. Canning), viz. as
a question of justice to the Chief Baron. As the House had
voted the ta' in-induce, and so far declared the necessity of in-
quiry, they should in justice to the Chief Baron give him the
benefit of knowing the specific facts to which he should prepare
a decisive answer. In justice to the Chief Baron, as well as to
the public, the inculpation which had been made should not be
stotmed without seine apparent reason.
Air. HUME, in reference to the passage referred to by
the Solicitor-General in the Fifth Report of the Coninns-
sioners, said he had prepared a declaratory Resolution,
stating the facts mentioned and condemning the practice.—
He thought it clear, however, that the Chief Baron had acted
from no corrupt motive, but with a perfect conviction created
by the general practice that be legally possessed the power

which he exercised. Under such circumstances he thought it
would be unjust to proceed against him either by impeachment
or address. But the House should in justice to all parties come
to a distinct Resolution on the subject. Ile concluded by de-
claring, that if the House went into a Committee, as he was
inclined to think they should, he would recommend the adopt-
ing of an additional Resolution, declaring that the Lord Chief
Baron had received the fees under an impression that he was
entitled to receive them.

Mr. GOULBURN supported the going into a Committee.
The House divided--

For the Committee, 60 I Against it, 19 Majority, 31.
The House then went into a Committee, and the first Reso-
lution, declaratory of the fact of fees having been taken for
duties which had not been done, was put from the Chair.
A desultory conversation ensued upon the fact, whether cer-
tain exculpatory circumstances which were contained either in
the 9th Report itself, or in some subsequent Report, should not
be inserted in the Resolution. The Attorney and Solicitor
General, Mr. Goulburn, Mr. R. Smith, Mr. S. Rice, and Mr.
Vlretherell, took pan in this conversation ; as also did Captain
O'Grady, who complained that the Resolution was unfairly
worded.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL then moved, that the ex-
culpatory circumstances taken front the I ith Report should be
added to the Resolution.
Mr. S. RICE wished to add another passage of that Report.
The second amendment was objected to as being matter of
opinion, and not matter of facts.
Mr. Secretary CANNING approved of the Resolution and
the first Amendment, but opposed the second.
Mr. S. RICE consented to withdraw that part of the amend-
ment which expressed an opinion, and the amendment with that
omission was agreed to.
The Resolution detailing the charges against the Chief
Baron contained in the ninth Report, with the addition of an
extract from the eleventh Report, was then agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and obtained leave to
sit again tomorrow.
The Irish Unlawful Oaths Bill was read a third time and
passed.
Tli other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Two o'CLocx.

A LIST OF THE MINORITY
ON HUME'S MOTION

Against the Grant of 0,230 for Building Churches and Glebe
Houses in Ireland.

Abercromby,Hn.J. Gordon, lion. W. Robinson, Sir 0.
Bright, H. Orentell, P. Robarts, G.
Brougham, 11. . Grattan, J. Ricardo, D.
Bennet, lion. H. G. Hutchinson, Hon. Rice, T. S.
Benyon B. C. H. Smith Wm.
Bentmck, Lord W. Lamb, Hon. G. Smith, R.
Butterworth, J. Leader, W. Tierney, Rt. Hn.G.
Baring, A. Leyeester, Ralph Western, C. C.
Calcraft, John Mackintosh, StrJ. Wood, Alderman
Calcraft, J. El. Martin, J.
Colborne, N. W. Palmer, C. F. TELLERS.
Duncannon, Visct. Palmer, C. Hume, Joseph •
Fitzgerald, M. Powlett, lion. W. Monck, J. B.