The Sun.
London, England, 1824-03-23 00:00:00

LABOURING CLASSES.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL presented two petitions against the
coal duties ; and the Noble Lord gave notice, that on Thursday
next he would move for the appointment of a Select Com,
mittee, to take into consideration the condition of the labouring
classes.
WOOL TRADE.

Sir T. LETHBRIDGE presented twa petitions from wool-
traders in Somersetshire, praying for the benefit of the draw-
backs upon their stock on hand. He wished to know what
were the intentions of the Right Hon. Gentleman on the sub-
ject of these drawbacks.

- The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that
his intention was, instead of immediately reducing the duty,
to adopt the suggestions of the merchants and manufacturers,
which were, to reduce the duty at two distinct periods, namely,
to take off 3d. per lb. on the Od of September, and the remain-
ing 2d. on the 12th of December. Under these circumstances,
he proposed to allow no drawback upon stock on hand.
On the motion of Mr. JONES, the Welsh Judicature bill
was committed pro forma, and the further consideration post-
poned until Friday next.
THE SILK TRADE.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the
order of the day for the Committee on the silk trade bill.
Mr. WM. SMITH said, that he had a petition from his
constituents on this subject, bbt understanding that they were.
ready to trust their case to the details which the Chancellor of
the Exchequer intended to introduce, he would not present it
at that moment.

The House then resolved itself into a Committee upon the
silk trade bill, and Counsel were called in anti heard at the bar
in behalf of the petitioners against the bill.
Mr. HARRISSON opened their case. He recited the various
Acts of Parliament by which the trade had, up to the present
time, been regulated • and contended, that for years the trade
in this country would unequal to compete with the foreign
manufacturers—first, because of the difference in the price and
regulations of labour ; secondly, in the cost of the raw mate-
rial ; anti thirdly, in the expence of machinery. He pointed
out the disadvantages under which the British manufacturem
laboured under these several heads ; and informed the Com-
' mittee, that he was ready to call witnesses to the bar in proof
of the positions which he had laid down in his speech.
The Counsel was then ordered to withdraw.
Several clauses of the Bill were then agreed to without dis-
cussion.

On the clause " allowing silk-manufactures for exportation
to be warehoused and bounty allowed under certain regula-
tions," being put to the Committee by Mr. BROGDE:4,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIQUER, referring tG
the petition which had been presented by the Hon. Member
for Wareham, praying that the bounty might be allowed upon
goods that were cut, us well as upon those which were uncut,
observed, that he had no objection to allow the bounty upon
silk goods that were in entire pieces, or upon such as had been
only cut for the purpose of exhibiting paterns thereof. He
therefore moved, that after the parenthesis containfng the words
" not being less in quantity than three hundred pounds
weight," there be added the following words, " and in en-
tire pieces, or such as have been only cut for exhibiting pat-
terns thereof."

Mr. CALCRAFT thanked the Right Hon. Gentleman for
the liberality with which he had listened to one part of the
proposition which he had suggested ; and trusted that he would
also extend it to the other. If he would allow pieces of 30
yards, though cut, to take their share of the bounty, lie would
give great satisfaction to the silk trade, and would settle a ques-
tion which at this moment was not unattended with considera-
ble difficulty.
Mr. WALLACE could not consent to allow this bounty to
pieces which had been cut for the purposes of sale. Besides,
the allowing this bounty to pieces of 30 yards, and denying it
to pieces of 5, 10, or 15 yards, would be granting a benefit to
the large and withholding it from the small dealers.
Mr. Aldeman WOOD spoke in favour of the proposition of
Mr. Calcraft.

Mr. Alderman THOMPSON said, that if the Hon. Mem-
ber for Wareham did not move an amendment to the purport
of his speech, he certainly would.
Mr. BIRCH was of opinion that the relief intended to be
given by this clause would be useful only to the dealer, and not
to the public.
Lord A. HAMILTON observed, that the statement of the
Hon. Member who had just sat down went to justify the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer in removing all bounties whatsoever_
He did not think the regulation now proposed was of such a
nature as would effect the whole object which the Right Hon.
Gentleman intended. He ought to lay down some principle,
some distinctive line, and to abide by it. He said he would
admit cut articles to draw the bounty. Now lie asked whether
there was any specific quantity up to which he would allow the
bounty to be paid ? When the Right Bon. Gentleman stated
that he would grant the bounty on remnants, he (Lord A-
Hamilton) did not know what meaning he affixed to the word
" remnant."

Mr. W.M I LLIA M S said the Hon. Member for Nottingham
(Mr. Birch) was not at all inconsistent in the argument he had.
used. His assertion was, that the drawback would be of no tar-
vice to the public, but would benefit the mercer, who would put
the amount in his pocket. He was precisely of the same opi-
nion. The mercer's profit was at present so considerable, that
on large orders he could abate 3d. or 4d. per yard, and not sell
at a loss ; and by this provision they were about to increase
his profit. He conceived the measure originally introduced was
a wise one ; and, fully impressed with that idea, the Chancellor
of the Exchequer should have his strenous support. In his
opinion, that Right Hon. Gentleman had been too anxious
to meet the wishes of those who opposed this measure; and.
he thought it would have been much better if he had stood
firmly on the proposition first made to that House. It would be
wise to make no further concessions, but to act up to that which
seemed to be just to all parties. The Right. Hon. Gentle-
man must know that it was totally impossible to please every
body.—(Hear ought to stand upon a great principle,
and bid defiance to opposition. By lookingonly to the general
advantage of his country, he would be certain to command the
approbation and gratitude of all disinterested persons..—(Hear !)
Mr. CALCRAFT said, that the argument of the Hon.
Member went to an extraordinary length. According to bun,
the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to adhere to his first
proposition, be it good or bad.—(" No, no.")—The lion.
Member ought, however, to recollect, that the Chancellor of the
' Exchequer had already altered his plan. The importation of
ewotnth Gentleman
representations
foreign silk was to have commenced on thelith of July, 1824 ; -but
theo tßorimghittyn H
hwhichreconsideredhad
been
ethene mmaadttere
to h
; and,
piun
the subject, the importation of foreign silk was postponed till
July, 1826. Such evil counsel as had been given by the
Honourble. Member was sufficient to corrupt even a Chancellor
of the Exchequer. The Hon. Member said, that at present
the mercer could afford, on large orders, to give us 3d. orAti
the yard. What, then, would be the effect, if this drawback
Iwere allowed ? Why he would then be enabled to abate 7d. or
Bii. per yard.—(Hear, hear !)—He hoped the Right Hon-

Gentleman would carry his measure of relief a little farther,
einel that it would be extended to remnants of silk, consisting
of 30 or 40 yards. He had no interest whatsoever in the trade;
and it would be observed, that the petition which he had pre-
sented prayed that the drawback might be allowed on the quan-
tity of 25 yards, whereas he was willing that it should not go
tam 40.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS never had argued that the Chancellor
of the Exchequer would pe.rsist in a measure,when once brought
in, whether it was right or wrong. He had stated, and he would
again state, that the Right Hon. Gentlemaa had anxiously at-
tended to all parties. He had conceded more than enough ; and
the more there was conceded, he might rest assured of it, the
more would be demanded. He should be ashamed of
himself if he acted like some of those gentlemen who were con-
tinually goading Ministers to adopt the principle of free and
welettered trade, but who, the moment an attempt was made to
act upon that principle, immediately turned round and thwarted
the .experiment by every means in their power. He believed
the measures proposed by Ministers were calculated to serve
. the heist interests of the country ; and, impressed with that
feeling,'he should be ashamed of him-self if he did not give
them his humble but strenuous support.—( Hear !)
After a few words from Mr. CAecueieer, Mr. Hermit, Mr.
BA&nen, and Mr. T. Wresosr, the amendment of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer relative to silk, " cut for the purpose
.of exhibiting patterns," was carried. -
Mr. HUM E then moved that the following. words should be
Added after the word " patterns"—" or in pieces, being cut,
not less than 30 yards in len_gth."
Mr. BARING supported the amendment. Equal protec-
tion should be extended to all persons in the trade ; and it
should not be forgotten, that the whole stock of many dealers in
the country consisted chiefly of cut pieces. He suggested, that,
instead of silk being sent to be warehoused, it should be mea-
sured on the spot by Excise officers. The mercer would thus
be relieved from the risk of having his silk stained, and also
from the inconvenience which must arise from his being tem-
porarily deprived of his stock.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the
paramount difficulty in this case had been to carry the principle
into effect with as little incovenience as possible to the dealers.
If the suggestion of the Honourable Gentleman were adopted,
they would be obliged to send custom-house officers to every
town in the kingdom, and, he knew not where they were to
find them. Officers had been sent to Nottingham, because the
silk manufacture was carried on there, and they had also been
stationed at all the seaports. Persons, therefore, who were in-
cluded in his amendment, would naturally find their way to
the officers at the nearest station. It was quite clear, that in
proportion as they extended the range of this bounty, they must
;.nultiply the difficulties which opposed the carrying Of the
clause into effect.
G. PHILIPS supported the amendment.
Mr. R. SMITH asked whether there was any mode by which
it could be ascertained whether silk had been cut for patterns or
for sale ?

Mr. HERRIES said, that on the first. instance the declar-
ation of the dealer would he taken. If a doubtaroSe, an appeal
would be made to persons experienced in the trade, who would,
in every disputed case, be called on to decide. According to
this amendment, every cut piece of silk must be measured;
and he believed, the dealer would much rather be saved the
consequent trouble and loss of time, than claim the bounty.
Mr. CALCRA FT said, there was nothing compulsory in the
amendment. If the bounty would not repay the trouble of
measuring, of course the mercer would not demand it.
After a few observations from Mr. BRIGHT and Mr. Bu T.
TERWORTH in support of the amendment, the Committee
divided, when there appeared—
For the Amendment - - 30
Against it -
_ . - - 76

Majority

---4fi

On our re-admission to-the gallery, we found Mr, ELLICE
inquiring, with reference to a question which he had asked on
a former evening, how the Right .Hon. Gentleman meant to
- deal with dyed silk ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER believed he
.had misunderstood the Hon. Gentleman when he had formerly
put the question. If he now understood him correctly, he
alluded to organzine silk, dyed : and he (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) could see no r..son why organzine. silk dyed
should be dealt with differently front any other silk that had
undergone the same process.
On reading the clause which admits the importation of fo-
reign silk after the sth of July, 1826, on the payment of 301. ,
for every 1001. value of the silk so imported,
Mr. BARING rose to move; as an amendment, that the
period should be extended from the sth of July, 1826, to the
sth of July, 1829, forming a period of five years, as was proposed
by the petioners on this occasion. The Hon. Member for ViTey-
mouth( Mr. W. Williams) was full of denunciations against those
who wished to alter this Bill, who, he asserted, were acting con-
trary to the principles of free trade ; but the truth was, there
was no free trade adopted in this ease. The trade remained
shackled in every possible way. The House were mistaken if
they supposed that the principles of free trade had been
adopted. If these principles were to be carried into effect, they
ought to be applied to all cases,- instead Of being confined to
one. Woollens, linens, &c., ought to be treated in the same
manner. Ministers had, however, made an exhibition of the
principles of free trade with respect to this particular article,
though it was known and admitted that at all times this country
laboured under great disadvantages with reference to this trade.
The'llon. Gentleman proceeded to contend, that the silk-ma-
nufacturers generally were hostile to the measure proposed, al-
though some were tempted, by the immediate bounties, to give
a species of assent to it. The throwsters, particularly, were
bribed by the present advantage, into shutting their eyes to
the evils which eventually would fail upon the trade. With
. respect to the change of opinion imputed to him, no such
change had, in fact, taken place. lie was a friend to the
principle of ffee trade, if the country could have a free trade
in general; but why should we partici-%.arly have a free trade
in silk, which could bear that arrangement worse than any
• other commodity ? He was compelled to say that the mea_
. sure had been brought forward with a general dearth of infer-
mation as to the real effects of it. He understood that the
throwsters in Italy would be able to throw his silk four shil-
lings in the pound weight cheaper than the same trader could
do in England. He did not know how this difference arose;
but it was important in the case. The Hon. Gentleman then
read an extract of a letter written by the Committee of the Silk-
Trade in Derby, to the Committee of the Silk-Trade in London,
expressing a hope that when the time came the Chancellor of
the Exchequer would grant a further respite to the admission of
French' silks, if such a course should he found desirable; and
insisted from thence that the silk men generally who assented
• to the new measure, did it in hope of getting at its present'
bounties, and escaping its ultimate execution. In conclusion,
he objected particularly to the time—two years and a half—
fixed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer for admitting the
foreign article. He thought that the delay ought to be either
- greater or less ; and rather with a view of recording his opinion
than from any expectation of having his amendment adopted,
lie should move to add three years to the term now proposed,
and say, for the year 1826, the year 1829.
Mr. R. GORDON observed, with respect to free trade, that
every body was for it in the general; but it was too apt to be
opposed as soon as it touched one's own interests, or those of
one's constituents. He decidedly opposed the amendment.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not rise
at such a time to discuss the principle of the Bill, but he denied
• that the impression of the silk trade, in the main, was unfa-
vourable to it. The Right Honourable Gentleman then quoted
a letter from a body of silk-manufacturers at Derby, expressing
their general readiness to make the trial, as proposed by the
sill, although there were some traders certainly, who feared
the foreign competition ; and a second letter from the silk
trade of Manchester, desiring, in the strongest terms, that
Government would not 'suffer itself to be disheartened by
the opposition which was made to the measure. With respect
to the alarm which the Bill was said to be exciting throughout
this country, he would just assure the House—he had it from
good authority—that it was producing a great deal of alarm in
France. He simply stated the fact as it came to him, without
attempting to draw any inference from it ; but, however our
traders might be distressed at the idea of the French silks meet-
ing thetit in the markets of this country, the French silk manu-
facturers were very seriously apprehensive of the consequence
of our silks meeting theirs in the general markets of the world.
Mr. BARING repeated, that those who consented to the
measure were misled by a desire for the present bounties.
Mr. F. BUXTON said, that the Right Hon. Chancellor of
the Exchequer had not touched upon the amendment of the
Hon. Member for Taunton. He thotigift the working manu-
facturers were fairly entitled to the extension of time proposed.
He was an enemy to hastily throwing off, in favour of new
principles of political economy, the old rules under which the
country had arrived at its present height of wealth and great-
ness.—(Hear, .bear, from Mr. Hume).—The Hon. Member
for Aberdeen cheered. Fell! If that argument had no
weight, he would produce one which should be conclusive with
the Hon. Member for Aberdeen,—if the wishes of the manu-
facturers were assented to, he understood that they were willing
to give all drawbaCks, and to have the tax imposed (being drawn
by instalments) for three years. The drawback amounted to
500,0001., and the duty to 750,000/., so that by this course the
country would be in pocket 1,250,0001.
Mr. G. PHILIPS supported the bill; and pressed the ne-
cessity of repealing the Spitalfields Acts. With those acts still
in being, that the London trade should bear competition was
impossible. He agreed with his Hon. Friend the Member for
Taunton, that it would be desirable to give time to the manufac-
turers to prepare for this greet change now proposed in the silk
trade. The French looms were on all sides allowed to be superior
to those of Lancashire, and great expence and delay must be en-
countered in constructing new machinery. Half a year, or a

whole one, ought to be allowed, and before the whole of the
time should expire., there ought to be a total repeal of the Spi-
talfields Acts.

Mr. C. WYNN explained the conduct of the Board of Con_
troul in having refused the application of a young gentleman
spoken to on a previous night, to be allowed to go out to the
East Indies to trade in silks.

Mr. HALDIMAND approved of. any approath ,to a really
free trade. He .believed, that if the silk trade were thrown
open, there would shortly be exportations'of -silk to Italy, 'as
there were already exports of muslin. to India, so extensive
that the greater part of the-Seotch mznufactnrers were kept in
constant employment by them.
Mr. LI TTLETON,on behalf of the silk-trade of Stafford-
shire, disowned any participation in the compromise offered
by the Honourable Member for Taunton ; not that they would
object to the extension of time, if given to them, but they
would not give up the remission of duties promised them to
obtain it.

Mr. ELLICE expressed a similar disavowal on behalf of
the Coventry silk men. He was of opinion that the ultimate
success of this and other measures like it, must depend upon
the application of the principles of free trade to the articles of
food, so as to establish an adequate competition between the
prices of labour here and on the Continent.
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON was for postponing the opera-
tion of the measure till October, so as to secure the manufac-
turers and dealers in the transactions of the summer trade.
Mr. Alderman BRIDGES said a few words.
The Amendment was rejected without a division.
Mr. ELLICE urged the Chancellor of the Exchequer to
postpone the measure from the month of February, 1626, till
October in the same year.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was afraid
to concede the request of the Hon. uentleman, from the dread
of other applications of the same nature.
The original clause was then carried. The House resumed
—the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.
The Report of the Committee of Supply was brought up, and
the House agreed to the Resolutions.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at TWELVE O'CLOCK.