The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-20 00:00:00

Noble Lord's attention; but was this the only exclusion?
w is this the only compromise which had taken place?
What did the House think of the Wesleyan compromise,
also made at the expense of the Roman Catholics? He
would read an accurate statement of what had occurred

—stated in a letter to him from a private gentleman, " I
need hardly say, although a Protestant, that I feel the
conduct of the Government towards the Roman Catholics
to be peculiarly base.—(Hear.) The dissenters, as well
as churchmen, owe you a debt of gratitude for the notice
which you have given them." The following was a history
of the Wesleyan compromise :—About a fortnight
since, the Secretary of the Wesleyan Society called a
meeting for the purpose of forming certain resolutions,
which had been agreed upon at a previous meeting.
Before they entered upon business, they were informed
was in waiting—he was admitted, and
that Lord Ashley
stated himself to be commissioned by the Government
to negotiate with them, in order to buy off their oppo-
sition to the Government plan.—(Hear. hear.) Lord
Ashley stated that the Roman Catholic Schools would
be excepted from the benefits to be conferred
by this Bill ; an object which would be very
grateful to the Wesleyans. The meeting came to
no conclusion, and it was adjourned to Manchester, to
take the opinion of some of its members engaged in the
manufacturing districts. The Wesleyans met on the
9th of April, and again on the 14th instant. The state-
ment that the Bill had for its express purposes the ex-
clusion of the Roman Catholics had its desired object.
The claims of the Catholics were to be consi-
dered in another minute, and the Wesleyans
were not to be prejudiced from offering it any
opposition they might think fit. It was also agreed
that no person in holy orders should be admitted a
master of a school, a provision made for the express
purpose of defeating a proposition of the Bishop of
Exeter.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. MACAULEY.—This is all a romance.
Mr. DUNCOMBE.—WiII the Right Hon. Gentleman
say that Catholics are not to be excluded? If he does,
I will admit the romance. The Hon. Gentleman then
proceeded : He had received a letter from Leeds con-
taining the resolutions which had been adopted at a
meeting there of the Roman Catholics. Those resolu-
tions he trusted would find an echo in the breast of every
member in that House. " The Committee has read
with astonishment the reply of Lord John Russell re-
specting the additional grant for the purposes of
education." " The Government, in order to ap-
pease sectarian intolerance and clamour, were pre-
pared to deprive them of the united benefit of
a fund to which they equally contributed." And
that they could not but look with contempt and resent-
ment upon a Ministry who were about to create a new
Bill of disabilities on their Roman Catholic subjects. .
Now there was no romance in all this, it was unfortu-
nately a reality.—(Hear, hear.) But he would ask the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh, who
said that this was a romance, when he was opposing
Lord Stanley's motion for the revocation of these
minutes, whether he understood that they were exclu-
sive to Roman Catholics? He would ask the same ques-
tion of his Noble Friend the Member for the West
Riding of Yorkshire? If he did, his speech was
most belied, and most misreported. Lord. Stanley
stated that the Scriptures were to be read
daily as a part of the national system.
He said that it had been objected to-the former scheme
that it was impracticable to unite so many different per-
' sons of different religious opinions. Lord Morpeth
asked, was it right or proper to exclude their dissenting
brethren ? "He had no high opinion of many Roman
Catholic doctrines—of the Unitarians he had his own
opinions—but as long as they employed Roman Catholics,
and as long as they fingured Unitarian gold, they could
not refuse to share their privileges, or exclude them
from benefits to which they equally contributed. Now
he (Mr. Duncombe) could not conceive that there could
be anything so clear as what were the intentions of her
Majesty's Ministers, and he could not help thinking
that this was base trickery to buy off the opposition of
some co this new measure. These sentiments of ,the
Noble Lord were applauded by Lord John Russell, Mr.
O'Connell, Mr. Hawes, and others.—(Hear, hear.) He
hoped and trusted that there would be found a sufficient
spirit in that House not to vote away any of the public
money unless the public were equally benefited.—(Hear.)
Lord Dlorpoth in a subsequent speech said that "he
would be ashamed if he did not think that every man
in the country—be he Churchman or Dissenter—was
equally entitled to the support of the Government. He
found the Church making the first great claim
upon the property of the country; but the
Church itself ought to be greatly obliged to
Dissenters, for the example which they had set her.—
(eTheers.) That was the Noble Lord's opinion in 1842.
He should like to know, would they have attempted this
exclusivism had Mr. O'Connell been in that House ? He
believed not. He would nut believe that the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Dungarvon would go out on
the same lobby with the Noble Lord, he would not be-
lieve that he would be a party to create a new Bill of
pains and disabilities, and throw a stigma on his religion.
The Noble Lord had said nothing about the probable
cost of the scheme. He would ask any man—any
gentleman in that house if he could say within half a
million of money what would be the cost of this scheme
ten years hence.
Mr. MACAULAY.—One penny per head.
Mr. DUNCOMBE.—They only called for 100,000/.
this year, but they were laying the foundation of a
scheme which according to the calculations which others
had made, and which they had not proved to be wrong,
would cost in two years hence nearly two millions.
How was that money to be got to support the expenses
of the alterations which were to made under these
minutes which had been laid on the table of both
Houses of Parliament. Me objected to the unconstitu-
tional character of this Committee of the Privy Council,
and he did not think that there was anything in the
manner in which these minutes had been laid on the
table to entitle the Committee of Privy Council to the
confidence of the country.—(Hear, hear.)—When the
minutes were laid upon the table of the House by
Lord Lansdowne, nothing was said as to their nature
and character. It was argued in the Privy
Council, and then laid on the table of both
Houses without any prefatory remarks, for they did not
appear likely to read to any confusion to require the
sanction of the House of Lords. It did not require that
in order to give effect to any Bill that the consent of the
House of Commons should be given. In the view of the
Privy Council, the President of the Privy Council had
only to take the minutes to the Lords and Commons,
and there let them digest them if they could. It Was a
great condescension on the part of the president to say
anything at all about them. Let the people pay their
money and be grateful. Such was the opinion of this
secret tribunal. If they looked at the minutes them-
selves, they would find that they were objectionable, not
only on the ground of cost, but also as a general scheme.
lie had said that it would not accomplish that
which it professed to attain. It would create
undue influence, increase the power of the
Crown, and the patronage of the Government.
It appears that these minutes were thought of and framed
on the 20th of August last, when some general minutes
were agreed upon, and the President of the Council re-
tired for four months until he could prepare a further set
of minutes for the regulation of education, pupil teachers,
and stipendiary monitors. He must say that, looking at
the minutes altogether, independently of their unconsti-
tutional character—for he thought that never was such
a piece of quackery put together as the whole of these
minutes. Talk of Professor Ady and Morrison's pills.
Give him Mr. Kay Shuttleworth.—(Laughter.) This
measure was absurd to all practical working men, and
more particularly in that portion which referred to the
workshops and industrial schools—it was the laughing
stock of the country. There were pupil teachers, ap-
prenticed pupil teachers, who had a five year's appren-
ticeship to undergo. The Privy Council ought
certainly to be called inquisitors in this in-
stance, for the education of the children would
be assigned to inspectors appointed by the Privy Coun-
cil.
nt Thetn
at
troen
was
swneeont tmbeucbielydsiffaenidegneirelsi,nextcheeptctohuer girlsse
of
only being required to be versed in the geography of
the British Empire. The girls were not required to
proceed beyond " Compound Proportion " in figures.
Now such a thing was really preposterous—those who
were to be their future kitchen-maids
,and house-maids,
are to be crammed by the compound proportion of the
parochial clergyman.—(Bear, hear, and laughter.) In
the third year the examination differed but little from
that of the first ; and, in the fouth year, they required
a knowledge of vocal music and drawing, (specially
from models. This was not absolutely required, because
the means of teaching it might not exist in every school.
The Right Hon. Gentleman would say that it was easy
to have models for every school, according to the pre-
sent " Poses Plastiques. '—(Laughter.) Tho work-
ing men had a strong sense of the injury
which
they would inflict upon themselves by supporting
this measure.—(clear, hear.) (It would have the
effect of excluding the rural districts Fntireblyfofrreo from
the benefits of the scheme, f
o
r
thw reeequthe ired e
sum should
grant of any sum was made,
that t
besides a house rent free,
401. would be thus raisedii,
some
places not 15/. or 20/.
be raised by contributions, so that for a grant of 201.,
which would make 6hol. I
many of the rural districts
could be raised fort eeduatthioenreof'wochulidldr
be
en ,
ns
oo thatnen in
given, and the
.dnitsetnriacntee'woofuoldthebresechoomopise.ilethteopproapyoesitasl
oindustrial
artisan,
sasaneam.h schools ooTlwsh
The
upsrtouee
share of the maintenance
necessarily be
marketer pr
iaose theas produceeomng
of these
anwi tihn injury regardto ttohethhe
Isslmcilulesdt baertsisoaldn
of
fhtohoe
from an establishment of which the Government bore the
expense, so that the trades, already down to
the level of merely a b' su sistence, would be
still more seriously injured. How was a man
having to pay rent and taxes, and find his own
tools, to compete with those who were supported by the
Government? Besides, it was known to be impossible to
teach any of these trades thoroughly without a regular
apprenticeship far different from that which these per-
sons would receive in the Government establishments.
The working classes had already seen the mischievous
effects of the measure; they had rejected all the attempts
of the Government to cajole or bribe them by specious
promises of provision for their children. At a meeting
at Birmingham, lately, it was rejected by a majority of
152, showing the determination of the working classes
to permit the interfer'nce of the Privy Council. But
they never would submit that they should not combine
for tha purpose of protecting themselves. The working
men were not so ignorant as they had been represented,
and knowing from experience how their funds bad
hitherto been exhausted in strikes and contests, they had
resolved to act in a different manner in future. They
had now a national combination of trades, and instead of
expending their funds in a foolish and useless manner,
they now expended them in furnishing the raw material
of their respective trades, and in reproduclive labour, in
order to elevate the condition of their order. This was
a new principle of action and highly creditable to the
working classes. It was only last week that at Notting-
ham where the frame-workers who were Members of
the national union, had succeded in preventing 80 abate-