The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-09 00:00:00

Labour-rate Act had also worked well in general. He was was fast approaching, and though it was a Elle late r
Mthan h
in
quite convinced that the Irish landlords would show, if any this country, it generally was not deterred beyond arcor
measures was proposed, that they were not the selfish body they April, ano they were now far advanced in the month of haibruary,
were represented to be. He was as much opposed to repeal And those eOO,OO who were nos employed in the Pubhe
lic ,
as any betty could be—but whatever the Irish landlords were, works must resume their usual occultations, prepare t
it was that House which had meiie them that —(Hear, hear.) ground, procure the seed, and sow the seed—all within the
And Ireland would now be in a very different position, had it • next ten weeks. It behaved them, therefore, to take care lest
not been for a continued course of had legislation. the present state of Ireland would be only a prelude to a woros
Sir H. WINSTON BARRON observed, that despite all hereafter. He sincerely tweed that the measures proposed by
that had been said, the landlords and poor-law guardians had Government would be successful in meeting the emergency, I
done their duty further than might have been expected. under and that the 580,000 men who 'were now diverted from their
the circumstances. The workhouses had been overloaded to usual occupations would resume them again. A great effort we
the danger of the inmates, every man, woman and chits, who i now being made ; the cost of it would be great and the horde'
had applied fer admission had been admitted, and it was dis- i would be heavy, if not intolerable. He was disposed to adop'
graceful for men who knew nothing of the country to bring the view of the Honourable Member for Kerry, and to
forward the mendacious charges which had bsen brought support the clause as it now stood, as he did not believe
forward in that House against the Irish landlords that the amendment of the Hon. Member for Northampton-
and the boards of guardians, who had given contrary i shire would be expedient under the circumstances in which Ire-
to law out-door relief, and had trusted to that House land was placed. If the rates, according to the former lion.
to indemnity them for their conduct after, what would the Gentleman, were likely to be so difficult of collection in unions. ;
House tell him if he told them that the resolution which had he considered that the difficulty would be considerdiy aug-
been submitted to them ao a resolution of the board of merited if they wt re levied from electoral divisions He would,
guardians was a report from the John Ben newspaper. an ob therefore. support the clause.
acure London newspaper, which had no reporter present at the Mr. SHAW hoped that his Hon. Friend would withdraw
time. They claimed as a right, so long as they remained a his amendment. He considered that he (Mr. O'Brien) would
portion of the British empire, the privilege of coming not be testing the principle fairly by pressing it to a division.
there as the joint representatives of a portion of 'fhe proposed measure was a temporary one, and though he
the British people, and ask the House to assist would not object to the principle as applied to this measure, he
them in this extraordinary emergency. He told the would support the union relief when the Poor-law came under
House that it was their duty to respond to the call and discussion. The lion. Gentleman defended the landlords from
assist Ireland as if it were in Yorkshire or Scotland. The the charges made against them.
British Exchequer ought to come to the relief of the distress; Mr. LABOUC HERE wished to say one word. There
and now that it was admitted that Ireland was a portion of the could be no doubt but many districts would be found to be
British empire, let him not hear of taunts of English capital under a great pressure if they were compared with the destitu-
and English liberality. Did nut Ireland pay taxes? Did it lion which they were called upon to relieve. And if that was
not pay Excise and Custom's duties more than any other king- the case with unions it was still more so within electoral &nisi
dom of the same wealth end extent in the empire? But if skins. He hoped the discussion would continue no
they were not to apply to the British Parliament, longer, for it was essential that there should be as little
to whom could they apply ? But if application be delay as possible in coming to a decision on this measure.
refused would not Ireland have a right to say, " let us try and The House would not be at all precluded, by any vote to which
manage for ourselves." Let him hear no more then of these they might come on that occasion, from taking other statements
insults upon Ireland. The Irish landlords had done their duty with regard to the more grave and permanent measures which
in the most exemplary manner, but there might be exceptions, would shortly come on for discussion. It was vitally important
and that assertion he did not for a moment pretend to deny. that no delay should take place in passing the measure into
Two names had been mentioned. One was that of the Earl of a law.
Lucon, and it was said that nobleman had not paid the poor- Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN said, if his Hon. Friend went to a
rates. Now, this rumour arose from the baneful middleman division, that he should support his proposition.
system, for, in point of fact, at the present mo • Mr. D. BROWNE opposed the amendment because it
ment Lord Lucan was maintaining two workhouses would throw a great additional burden upon small towns, and
at his own expense. lie trusted that he should hear no more because the rates ought to be spread over large, instead of
of these taunts and insinuations. They were barring the door small, districts, in order more fairly to apportion them.
to English charity, and the result would be that the great and Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN said the electoral districts
charitable people of this country would hesitate to come for- were frequently inconveniently large. He believed that the
ward with their general liberality, if they were told that the reduction of them would make the rates more easy of collection,
distress was produced by the neglect of the landlords.—( Hear, and induce the proprietors of the soil to take more care of the
hear.) Great mischief had been caused out of doors by these poor in their districts. As, however, Irish Members did not
assertions, and he trusted after that night the house would generally object to the clause, he did not feel justified in press-
hear no more of them. ing the amendment to a division.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said they were now proposing Mr. B. OSBORNE expressed his opinion that the whole
to go into Committee, for the purpose of considering Bill would turn out a failure, and that the Government, when
measures for relieving the distress of the Irish people, this took place, would come down to the House with the old
in a manner which, in the opinion of the Government, was story, and attribute it to a want of co-operation.
better calculated to effect that object than the plans now in After some further discussion the amendment was negatived
operation.—( Hear, hear.) Now, he did hope the House would without a division, and the clause was adopted, as alto was
not entirely forget circumstances, and waste time upon sub- clause 13.
jects which could be hereafter more opportunely discussed.— On clause 14 being proposed,
( Loud cheers.) If, in the opinion of the Committee, the Bill Mr. HAMILTON said, he fit one was willing to have Ire-
was the best calculated to promote the immediate object they land taxed as much as she could conveniently bear, for the
had in view, then surely it would be a great advantage to support of her own poor.
enable Parliament to pass it without waiting to discuss points Lord CLEMENTS said that it was useless to ask the Irish
which must again be re-opened.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) landlords to pay back the money about to be granted, unless the
He should be glad not to say one more word House gave them the meat's. —(Laughter. ) Let him not be
upon the subject of Irish landlordism, but his Hon. Friend, misunderstood—he did not ask for money—(Hear)—but when
who had just sat down, not satisfied with defending Irish land- they came to consider that two millions of acres
lands, thought fit to attack gentlemen who were, and certainly in Ireland were held in joint tenantry, they would find
out to be, dear to him, namely, his constituents.—( Hear, and that it was an impossibility to repay the money, unless the
laughter.) The Hon. Gentleman was pleased to state that it Government, or that House gave them tee control of their
was owing to the monied interests, or some tricking system own property. The system of abuse and half defence, to
connected with them, that gave rise to certain taunting rosin- which the Irish landlords had been exposed, excited his con-
nations connected with the Irish landlords ; now he could not tempt equally—for he did say that there was nut a class of
pretend to say whether it was or not, but this he could men to be found any where, as a body, more willing to perform
tell his Honourable Friend, that about a month ago. their defies than the Irish landlords.—( Hear, hear.)
some dozen or so of gentlemen who were principally con- Mr. ROEBUCK said that having arrived at that stage of
netted with the monied interest of the city of Loneon, who the debate, he thought it the duty of the Minister to deal
had no property in Ireland, and perhaps did not wish to have with the House of Commons as it ought to be dealt with.
any -( A laugh) —nor in any way connected with Ireland, met The Minister had laid the Bill upon the table of tha House, it
for the purpose of raising a subscription in aid of the Irish had been read twice, and was then in committee. They had
people. They subscribed a very large sure indeed—some of been disposing of the measures by which they were to apportion
them to the extent of a 1,0001. each, but they were net saris- the relief to be granted, and as they were now about to
fled with doing this, but, though occupied as they were from approach that most important of all subjects—money—he
morning until four o'clock in the afternoon, they met shortly thought some explicit explanation of what they were about
after that hour for the purpose of receiving subscriptihns, do was due to the House. They were told that they wee
conducting a correspondence, arid distributing the funds, in a about to do something, but what that something we
manner which they considered to be most useful to the Irish they did not know. Now this was not a state of things whic
people. —(Cheers.) With regard to the duties of the should, or ought to exist. Bs the 17th clause, certain gran,
British public, upon which the Hon. Gentleman had laid of money had been made. He wanted to know if it ass it:
so much stress, he begged to call to the recollection of the the recollection of any Member of the House—he did not care
Hon. Gentleman, that whether the sum had been rightly how old he might be—even he would ask his Hon. Friend the
distributed or not, or whether that Act a hich authorised its Member tor Montrose, if it came within his experience that.
distribution was wise or not, or whether it had been properly a Chancellor of the Exchequer should come deem to the House
administered or nut, there was this fact before them, that to demand money without explaining how he meant to proeure
within the last month not lees than a million of mane/ had it ?—( Hear, hear-) If the Right Hon. Gentleman were to
gone out of the Imperial Exchequer for the purpose of elle- say, then, that he was about to raise it by an increase of the
viating Irish distress.—(Cheers.) In the course of the income tax, would there not be a dame from one end of the
present session of Parliament much discussion had kingdom to another
?
taken place on the subject of Ireland, and during the Mr. SHAW—No.
whole of that discussion he had not heard any one deny Mr. ROEBUCK—It would not with Irish Members, be-
that the money had been extravagantly or improperly cause they did not pay that tax.—( Hear, hear.) lint what
voted, considering the great calamity which visited was the Chancellor going to do? He considered that it was
the sister kingdom.—(Cheers.) That calamity, it was true, really an act of injustice to the people of England, who were
was unprecedented, and when it should be shown that for the to pay this money, if they were kept in ignorance of the means
purpose of mitigating the distress unpreeedently large sums of by which it was
he to
wan be o
ted btainked, orn
then was, how much w
hat as to
was
be
money had been voted by the British Parliament, no one granted. What to now w
could possibly have reason to complain of a want of sympathy the sum to be given ; he did not wish to
on the part of the people of England, or the Government.— tie the Right Hon. Gentleman to any particular slim ? He
(Cheers.) He admitted that no large amount of blame could would repeat the question—he wanted to know the sum of the
be thrown on the Irish landlords, considering the difficulty expense which would be required to meet the present emer-
they had had to contend with, but still leaving that matter out gency? It was a fair question, and he would expect an explicit
of the question, he thought the best example they could answer.—( Hear, hear.) One of the great obligations of the
follow was to go immediately into Committee, and leave that office of Chancellor of the Exchequer was to give an explicit
matter for discussion when the other questions came before the statement of the expenditure, and to deal fairly with the House.
House.—( Hear, hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
Mr. STEWART said, that notwithstanding what had fallen upon no occasion whatever had he declined to give the required
from the Noble Lord, it would he disgraceful to Ireland if answer. He only begged to say that he never put the question
Irish Members were to sit still and hear Irish landlords at- before to him, nor had he acted in any manner to warrant the
tacked in the manner they have been. They have done ail mode in which the question had been put. He had not the
they could to relieve the distresses of the people, and he hoped slightest difficulty in stating what had been the sum of money
England would treat the taunts thrown out with the contempt advanced by the Exchequer from February to September last.
they deserved. —(Hear, hear.) It had been two millions. The presentment
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD was sorry to detain the sessions had presented for 6,000,000/., that was the sum which
House, but there were some observations which had been made the landlords of Ireland had taken upon themselves to pay.
in the course of the debate which rendered it necessary he The amount to be granted by the present Bill was 300,000/.,
should trouble the House for a few moments. It had been and not more, to be paid out of the consolidated fund. Any
said that Ireland could not afford to pay the rates ; future sums the Government might require would be 'voted in
be denied it, and while he called upon England to assist Ire- Committee.—(Hear, hear.)
land in her present emergencies, the last shilling he possessed Mr. ROEBUCK disclaimed any intention of being offen-
should be responsible for the loans this country might advance. sive to the Right Hon. Gentleman. He had only asked a
Hear, hear.) The distress of Ireland had been occasioned simple question, and he must have an answer. He asked him
by a defective landlord and tenantry law, and he hoped to see the the probable expenditure under the present Bill, and he was
day when the rates would be divided between the landlord and answered with reference to another Bill which they would have
the tenant, and a jurisdiction given to the Court of Exchequer to discuss, and which had nothing to do with the present
in the shape of a power to appoint, and receive, and to enforce question. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that he intended
payment from the former. to limit the expenditure to 300,000/. He would call the at-
Lord BERNARD wished to pay a just and merited compli- tention of the Right Hon. Gentleman to the 14th clause,
went to the conduct of Sir W. Beecher, whose conduct had which empowered the Commissioners to cause to be issued,
been so grossly impugned by Hon. Members. He had had the from time to time, any sum or sums of money they might
most serious dificulties to contend with, and had acted through- think fit. No sum was named. He wanted to know from the
out with the utmost good judgment, and with the greatest abi- Right Hon. Gentleman if he had made any calculation of the
lities. The distress of Ireland was not confined to the rural probable expenditure of this country in maintaining the people
districts ; suffering and distress of the most serious nature of Ireland, as long as the Bill was in operation. The Right
existed in the county of Cork, the second city of Ireland. Hon. Gentleman had not given that answer, he had merely
Mr. RICE thought that the people of England would re- given a technical reply. The House would have to vote in the
quire and justly so, a proper security for the re-payment of the dark for large sums to be granted to Ireland ; and after that
sums advanced to Ireland. He did not wish to see any they would have gentlemen in Conciliation Hall talking
aspersions thrown upon the Irish landlords. What he wished of the advantage of separation. However, from the
to see thrown upon them was the duty of supporting the speech of the Honourable Member for Cork, it appeared
poverty of the country. The greatest credit was due to the that they would make a despotism of the Government
Government for proposing such a measure as the present cal- of this country, if they could take as much
culated as it was to afford relief to the people of Ireland. money as they thought fit. 'fhe Chancellor of the Exchequer
Mr. JOHN O'BRIEN was quite surprised to hear such was a-king money to relieve the Irish, and it was clear either
charges as had been made against Captain Wynne or any that he had not made any calculation as to its amount, or if he
other officer of the body. He was present at the meeting re- had made it—he thought that too large an amount to tell at
ferred to, and he was sure that nothing had passed there to the present moment.
justify such a charge, and he wished it was in his power to The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that a
speak of the conduct of the other officers in the same terms as few days since a Bill had passed that House limiting for the
that of Captain Wynne. present the advance from the Consolidated Fund to 300,000/.
The House then went into Committee on the Bill. fhe House at present was pledged to nothing more than that
After a few words from Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN, and the sum. With reeard to any further liabilities he had already
CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, the purport of which was said that that cray fortnight it would be his duty to make a
inaudible in the gallery. statement to the House.
Colonel CON DOLLY said that in his opinion it would be Mr. S. 0' lIIIIEN said that no explanation had been gishot
found to be quite impracticable to carry out his provision of as to the mode in which the 58-►,OOO people at present at wo
this clause under the control of boards of guardians, especially on the roads were to be taken off them and otherwise more e,
when the great extent of some of the electoral districts was vantageously employed.
considered. Mr F. FRENC ti fully agreed with the Hon. Member fs:
Mr. F. FRENCH thought the most advisable course would Bath in the important question which he had put to the Hoc.
be to allow the Government to take their own course, and agree Gentleman. All Nlembe sof that House must feel the nu
at once to this clause. portance of the query matte, bat it was impossible for any
Mr. ROSS feared that some confusion would hereafter rise aien, ',man in the House to deem the answer given as a eatis-
between the different unions of the country and the electoral factor} one. In formeig any estimate of the probable exp
ii-
districts, the effect of which would be found to be to throw ifi'ure, it must be coesidered that many auseiewy measures
unjustly the whole pauper population of the electoral districts were to be brought into imerat.oe. en.: it scud be rieces,are
into one union. • first to determine the amount of the population to be employ d.
Mr. WILLIAMS thought that better security would be Rua that amount must necesserily its reguiated bs the effect cut
afforded for the repayment of the advances if the whole extere. he stiles measures to be embodied, so, theref ore, it was wo-
of the unions were to be held liable, and he hoped that the possible, or nearly so, to give to the lion. Member definite
Government would adbere to the principle contained in the or satisfactory information on a question so materially affecting
clause before the committee. It was but fair to the people et the Exchequer of England.
England that the best security should be taken for the repay- After some further conversation,
merit of the advances about to be made. He made no objection Mr. E. DENISON said that he wished to ask a question of
to assist Ireland. The Government would, however, be held some importance to the Government. With reference to the
responsible by the people of England for the measures they had Poor-law Bill as proposed for Ireland, it seems dtobe an un-
now introduced. derstanding with he Irish oembers that this Bill was to be
Mr. M. O'FERR Al rose to order. The question before resisted to the utmost. He had also heard statements, both in
the House was, the apportionment of the charges between the and out of the House, as to the intentions of the Government
union and the several electoral districts• with reference to this Bill, and he should, therefore, respect-
After a few words from Mr. WILLIAMS in reply, fully ask the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Home
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN thought that the whole di- Department to give the House an assurance of the intentions
rection should be left altogether in the Board of Guardians, and of the Government as to the course to be pursued by them
that the system of rating should be left as it is at present. He with regard to this measure.
would therefore move that the clause should be expunged. Sir GEORGE GREY said that his Hon. Friend asked an
Mr. MORE O'FERR AL hoped the Hon. Member would extraordinary question. It certainly was the intention of Go-
not press his amendment to a division. The present mode of vernment to proceed with this Bill, and that was the first time
rating was utterly Inefficient, and if new powers were not given hlaendhlaocird heard
of Ireland.eardeven Theyasurmis were a
eastoitsns us to do
otabneatinogproc proceeded
theel they
Sir enn
it would be impossible to relieve the distress which so exten
couAildr.foSritihAeWrecoliemf polfaitnheed aspersionsodfisttrheessaround
th cast
rn • i
sively prevailed. He should therefore support the clause.
Sir DEN RANI NORREYS supported the clause.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM would have arisen at an earlier cases they had gone further than in common prudence they
stage of the discussion, but for a deep conviction lie enter- ought. lished
desired to know what course the Hon. Member
tamed that no time should be lost by introducing any topic for Bath the Government to pursue. Were they to
which might lead to any discussion, and that the measure leave the Irish people to starve, for that was what his remarks
should proceed with as little delay as possible. The principle tended to ? This was a great and awful calamity—a national
carried out in the present measure was one of very great ims calamity—which had overtaken them. and it ought to be met
portance ; and he would observe, in conformation of what had by the national resources. If the Irish landlords were as bad
been said by the Right Honourable Gentleman who had just I as they were represented, were the Irish people to starve for
sat down that a great change had been made in their conduct ?—( Hear.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer
the Irish poor-law in 1843. He had the honour then to in- could not tell what sum he wanted. He would want a large
troduce a measure which met with the support of the Irish sum of money, and he (Mr. Shaw) could see no particular ob-
awnthelaetentooraplernsiovnis7ohnofsolrioutlhdepossibly could do. Were the Irish people to
Members, and passed the House, in which it was provided, ject in the course taken by the Honourable and Learned Gen-
not
period haveofexcept simply to impede the measure—(Hear, hear)—
otcweeulpv
eiedatenPemoern toil no
by
i;rn an ,
greater portion of that time, or should have slept for that dieineverymmeaneasnhe
months,
the time—for while they were then talking
period, or the greater part of i •t, an electoral division, should were starving, and must continue to do so, unless the means for
receive relies from the electoral division. And on the t their relief were speedily passed.
con rary
that all who did not occupy tenements forthat 'll ROEBUCK said that the Hon. Member had asked
space of time, . r.
should be relieved by the union. That something like a him one question and three ethers were asked by inuendos.
law of settlement, and in the latter ease, twheas cost a He asked, slid he want flue Irish to starve? He (Mr. Roe-
by the union, and not by the electoral division. wlts r ed
buck) wanted to know if that was a fair way to ask the sues-
was then
of the last importance however to keep those that an honest way to ask the
measures which tion.—( Hear, hear.) Was
were intended for a temporary purpose was the w the Hon
separate from those question ; or he supposed that that, .
that were intended to be permanent. Reserving, therefore, Member acted as a judge ?—(Cries of " Oh, ohs) Did he
Gentle-
for further discussion, whether relief to the able-bodied wish Irish 9 ( Hear, hear.) One o
ied should the people to starve .
be at the expense of the union, or the electoral division he i man said, " Hear, hear," another said " Yes," and a third cried
should say that it was most desirable to confine themselves at i that it was the proper way to put trio question. He
would
tell
present to the temporary me are It was not whether them what he did want the Government to do. He wanted
the
the discretionary power should be vested in the Poor-law Com- Government of England to rovide an efficient means of pro-
missioners, or in the Pcor-law Guardians. This was not Ithe Ireland the of preventing them
vu mg people of means
the object of the Bill, but whether a relief committee sit- I from starving, but, to so d • ledge all the property of Ire-
oltig top
Ling in Dublin, appointed by the Lord Lieutenant, and corres- land—( Hear, hear)—for the repayment of the debt. When
pouting with the poor-law guardians, should be vested with i the Hun. Gentleman talked to men of common prudence,
these powers. lie feared that by the present system of glee- of the gentlemen of Ireland presenting more than in common
Loral divisions, it welshd he` ouhd th e even in ordinary times prudence they eught, he had always been told, in the course
the burden of the peor-rete ith inoilerable ressure uperi ot t eat &lode, that s i est anees.were are. He was anxious
the peer tenants, and if so, what must they ten e peet at pre- that the fieepie of It, I -u.. shed.' not *ion) hav a'provoirin row,
sent ? Very many Of these districts were neatly overwhelmed, bat hereafter. Whey meow to provi ie tor the poor, but while
and he heard, with
all the assistance which might be rendered they del we they should take care that not one farthing went
to them, they would find it difficult to sustain themselves under into the pockets of the landlords. He had a right to look to
the pressure. What was the present state of Ireland. There • the poor of both countries, and he was prepared to give to the
were at that moment 580,000 persons enipi„yen upon the pub- poor of Ireland full and generous subsistence, but he would
lie works, which were suepof tea by seem/Ices from Gievern- give none whatevsr to tee Irish lendloois.
ircont, that we rut to be repaid lay t`rites-levieri from the electoral Au Hose EMU —No one wants-you.
d atts. It ,sac of the last tmport,rout that. they shoeld rier„7.- Mr- 1:0E Calea--Tosei, what was all taW sr eiewn
full consider this matter. These persons were the tillers of about? The Hon. Member said the distress was a minimal
the soil of Ireland. Now, it was well known
.tbat seed time calamity s another said something else,. and that they shou.is;