The Sun.
London, England, 1823-03-07 00:00:00

IRELAND,

The Earl of DARNLEY did not know whether it was quite
regular to ,allude to what had passed in another place; but
wished to ask the Noble Earl opposite whether it was his in-
tention tolay on the table the documents from the Irish Go-
vernment, relative to the measures in contemplation with re-
g_ard to Ireland, which had been produced in the other House.
He was aware that a disposition existed on the part of the
Noble Lord at the head of his Majesty's Government not to
acquaint the House with the measures which had originated in
another place • and that they were left in the dark till a late
period of the gession, when there was no time to discuss them
properly. He hoped that in the present case the subject would
be deemed of sufficient importance to induce the I.siobie Earl op-
posite to lay the documents in question before their Lordships.
If that course were not pursued,- he should think it hls duty to
13140 a motion to that circa.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that there was no docu-
ments upon this question which had been laid before the other
House, which would not also be submitted to their Lordships.
AU legislative measures must originate in one House or the
'other, and it was not the effect of neglect' or indifference to-
wards either, that priority of information should be possessed
by the one where the enactment had taken its rise. He was
aware that documents had been laid on the table of the other
House, and would have no hesitation in submitting the same to
their Lordships.
ROYAL MESSAGE.
_ _

The Earl of LIVERPOOL brought down a Message from his
MAJESTY, which was read by the Lord CHANCELLOR. It
stated in substance

" That his Majesty being informed that doubts had arisen
with regard to his right of disposing of Copyright and Free-
hold property, to which his Majesty was entitled before his
accession to the Crown, his Majesty recommended to their
Lordships to take the subject into consideration, and to make
such provisions as they, might think meet."
On the motion of the Earl of LIVERPOOL, his Majesty's
Message was ordered to be taken into consideration this day.
The Irish Chancellor of the Exch4uer Appointment
the Bxeliequer Bills Bill, the Annual Duties, the Transfer in
Aids, and the Lanarkshire Roads Bill, went respectively
through Committees, and were reported.
Lord GRENVILLE presented petitions from Bristol and
Gloucester against the Insolvent Debtors' Act,—Read, and laid
on the table.—Adjourned

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
• MISCELLANEOUS.
Mr. A. TAYLOR presented a Petition from Charles Greg_
son, late of Grosvenor-square, decorator of houses, complain-
ing of injuries sustained under the Bankrupt Laws.—Ordered
to lie on the table.
Mr. Alderman WOOD moved for Returns, of Surcharges
made under the Assessed Taxes in the last three years, for
Shopmen and Warehousemen employed by Shopkeepers.
Ordered.
Mr. DAWSON presented Papers relating to the case of W.
Murray Borthwick..—Ordered to be printed.
Mr. H. SUMNER presentea, a petition from certain Mer-
chants, Traders,,and Mannfacturers Of the parish of Bermond-
sey, complaining of the Coal Duty. The Chancellor of the
Exchequer, the Hon. Gentleman observed, having lately opened
a Budget more satisfactory than any he remembered to have
hoard for many years, he of himself had proposed to relieve
the country from certain burdens which he thought might be
remitted,' In consequence of this, he must now state to the
House what he had already told his constituents, that he could
not support at present the prayer of this petition for a repeal
of the Coal Duty. lie was, however, glad the subject had been
taken up, as he considered it well entitled to attention.—The
petition was ordered to be printed.
INSOLVENT DEBTORS' ACT.
Mr. DENISON presented a petition from certain Mer-
chants and Manufacturers in the parish of Bermondsey against
the Insolvent Debtors' Act. One of the persons signing this
petition the Hon. Gentleman stated to have had tin pexsons on
his books, from who he had not received ene farthing dividend.
—The petition waft ordered to be printed.
Lord FOLKESTONE presented a similar petition from the
Inhabitants of New Saritni..--.Ordered to be primed.
The Irish Assessed Taxes Repeal Bill went through a Com-
mittee, the Report of which was ordered to be received to-
morrow.
The Irish Arms Bill was read a second time, end ordered to
be committed to-morrow..
COLLECTION OF THE CUSTOMS.
Colonel DAVIES begged to ask if the transfer of the col.
lections of Customs to the Excise, which had been contem-
plated last year, and from which a considerable saving had been
expected, was to take place.
Air. HERRIF,S said, the saving which the change in ques-,
tion would cause, would not go to the extent supposed,, but '
the alteration was contemplated rather with a view to general
convenience than from an idea that a saving of importance
could he effected.
A. petition was presented from the town of Whitby, corn.
plaining of the practices of Hawkers and Pedlars.—Ordered
to be printed.
The Irish Yeomanry Corps Bill was read a second time,
and ordered to be committed on
A petition was presented from the Coach and Harness-mak.
ere of Bristol, praying for 'the repeal of the tax on horse's.—
Ordered to lie on the table.
MESSAGE FROM HIS' MAJESTY.
Mr. !Secretary PEEL appeared at the bar with a Message
from the Crown, which was brought up and read by the
Speaker.
Ills Majesty being informed that doubts have arisen touching
the powers vested in his Majesty to dispose of certain freehold
and copyright land, of which he was possessed at the rime of
his accession to the Throne ; and being also informed that
doubts have arisen as to the power of his Majesty's Successors
to dispose of Such freehold or copyhold property as they may
be entitled to at the periods of their accession to the Throne,
recommends it to his faitliftd Commons to take the subject
into their consideration, and make such arrangements as they
•
mey think proper. ••I (Signed) G. R.
`Mr. Secretary PEEL then. moved that it shpuld be referred
to a Committee of the whole Hotree to-morrow, to take his
Majesty's Most Gracious Nessage into consideration Mr. ,
BENNE'r Suggested that it might be better to postpone
the consideration of his Majesty's ,'Message till Monday, as it
was known that many of the Gentlemen who sat on that aide of
the House could not be in their places to-morrow.
Mr. Secretary PEEL•thought it .would be adviseable not to
defer taking the 'Dosage into consideration till Monday. The
Hon. Gentleman was aware that, after the Committee had set,
a Bill must be introduced ; and in any of the stages 'Of that
Bill, a sufficient opportunity would be afforded for opposition
to the arrangement which would be proposed, or for offering
any observations which might seem called for. The Army Es..
timates stood for to-morrow ; and he therefore thought it likely
that there would be satisfactory attendance early in the evening.
Under these circumstances he was sure the Honourable
Gentleman would have no wish to depart from the establ;shed
usage.
The Motion was then agreed to.
Mr. W. SMITH moved for a return of all Extents in Aid
issued in the lastyeur. —Ordered.
CASE OF COLONEL ALLEN.
Colonel DAVOS called the attention of the House to an
instance of the manner in which the enormous power pos-
sessed by the Crown over officers in the army was exercised.
He held in hie!Band a petition from Colonel Allen, who, in
the year 11117; was with his regiment in Guernsey, where
General Bailey was at that time stationed. Colonel Allen
was accused by. General Bailey of making false returns. The
Colonel upon this demanded an inquiry into his conduct.
General Bailey having, prefiared this accusation, had seemed
to.think the matter ought to rest there. Unable to kequiesce
in this, Colonel Allen had written a letter to Head-Quarters
on the subject, and at the end of three months he had been
brought to trial, not on one, but on three distinct charges.
'these charges were, that he had made false Returns—that he
had tried men by Drnin-hted Courtenartials—.and that he had
-placed more men in certain -barracks ORM those barracks were

calculated to hold. On the first and third charges be was found
guilty of the facts charged, but these were proved to amount
to mere technical errors and misconstruction of • orders, and
the decisions of the Court were - qualified accordingly: On
the second chare, with respect-to brunt-head Court-martials,
he was convicted without any similar qualification of the ver-
dict. With respect to Drum-head Court-martials, he might be
allowed to observe, that they differed not from other Court-
martials so much as some Hon. Members might suppose. The
evidence was not taken down in them, but the )Members were all
on their oaths the same as in the others. His Royal Highness
the Prince Regent had been pleased to confitm the finding of
the Court; and had sentenced Colonel Allen to be reprimand-
ed. But, not satisfied with the severity of this sentence, Co-
lonel Allen had subsequently been removed from the 55th
'itegiment, his continuing in the command of it having been
considered to be inconsistent with the well being of the corps.
It was intimated to him that he might retire on half-pay, or
leave the service altogether by selling his commission. He
(Colonel Davies) had no hesitation in saying that whoever
had advised this addition to the sentence of a Court Mar-
tial, had advised the Prince Regent to do that which was ille-
gals Colonel Allen had preferred retiring an half-pay. The
circumstances under which he must have sold his commission
were such, that, in fact, the punishment inflicted un him
amounted to a severe pecuniary fine. The Hon. Oentlenian
quoted from several military ituthoritieslaa sheer that the
Crown could legally make no alteration in the sentence of a
Court Martial, unless it were by exercising the prerogative of
mercy to mitigate its rigour. Under these circumstances, Co-
loud Allen threw himself on the consideration of that House,
in the hope that though he was a military man, he should not
be denied that justice which was not denied to the meanest
individual in the State.

'The petition having been read, on a motion by Colonel DA.
vrEe, that it should lie on the table.
Lord PALMERSTON rose, not for the purpose of ob-
jecting to the laying the petition on the table, but to show the
House why it was not entitled to their notice. On general
principles, any interference with the branch of the preroga-
tive of the Crown which related to the appointment and re-
moval of the officers of the army, was totally inexpedient.—
Of all the privileges of the Crown, none was more ancient, and ,
none had been, of more uninterrupted exercise, than that of '
dismissing officers, whether they had been tried or not, or whe-
ther any reason was or was not assigned for their dismiseal.--
It was a power helel, not for the benefit of the Crown, but.
for the maintenance of the rights and liberties of the people.
Ile would argue that upon general principles, this was not
a case which called for the niterference of the Ilouse. He
might, however, go farther, and state, that there were circum-
stances connected with it, which allinded much stronger ground
for refusing any Parliamentary interposition. Col. Allen was
tried on three distinct charges, on all of which he was found
guilty. On two of those charges, the verdict was accompa-
nied by a particular qualification : with respect to one case, it
was said, that although he was found guilty, his offence arose
from a misconstruction of orders; and, as to the second, it was
stated that be had acted under an erroneous idea. On the third
charge he was found guilty, without any qualification whatever.
The original charge was fordisobedience of &dere, and quer-
tering in a certain barrack a greater number of soldiers than
it was calculated to contain. It was quite clear, with reference
to this charge, either that Colonel Allen was extremely neglect..
ful of the orders that had been given' or that he had very great
inaptitude in understanding them. Complaint was matte, that
instead of being tried on one charge, he had been tried on
; three and thellon. Member who brought forward this petition
argued that no man ought to be deprived of his commission,
except by the sentence of a court-martial ; and next, that
such court-martial should be held at his own request.
' Colonel DAVIES here interrupted the Noble Lord. He dee
nied that lie had ever said any such thing. Colonel Allen
wished to rescue his character from certain imputations that had
been cast upon it ; he called for an inquiry, and, to his great
surprise' after a considerable lapse of time, he was tried on
three 'different charges.
Lord PALMERSTON continued—The second charge on
which General Bailey caused Colonel Allen to be tried, was
for' omitting, in his returns, the names of a number of
soldiers who had received corporal punishment. It had
been recommended by the Commander-in-Chief, that cor-
poral punishment should be resorted to as seldom es possible ;
but' it appeared that, within a shoo period seventy-nine
men belonging to Colonel rege Wit had received 4817
lashes. An order had been given, thilefelien *lea' puniehnient
was inflicted, the name of the offender, the crime of which he
was guilty, together with such additional remarks as might
suggest themselves, should be laid before the Commander of
the garrison. What, then, was the Surprise of Gen. Bailey,
when, on examining the hospital of the bsth regiment, he foiled
two men suffering in consequence of the infliction of corporal
punishment, although he had reason to suppose, f'ecmi Colonel
Allen's return, that no men had been recently punished. Ile
felt it, therefore, necessary to inquire whether corporal punish-
ment had not been indicted in other ceees, and he found, that
between January and April, In
-- men had received 17511 lashes.
Col. Allen, in answer to the interrogatories of General Bailey,
- stated, that the names of those men had beets omitted in the
return, :under an erroneous impression of 'the meaning of the
order. But, if Colonel Allen had any doubt with respect to the
meaning of the order, he should have communicated it to Gen.
Bailey, and called upon him to explain it. On this charge, the
court-martial found him guilty. If Col. Allen understood
ehe
order and disobeyed it, he was not, in that relic, fit to remain in
the service; and on the other hand, an officer who could misun-
derstand so plain a direction, certainly was not worthy of re-
maining in the army. The next charge against him was for try-
ing 7 men by drum-head court-martial, when no necessity de-
manded that summary proceeding. Gen. Bailey, it appeared, had
been absent from Guernsey fora few days, and during his absence,
Col. Allen had thought fit to assertibleidrutrihead courts-mar-
tial. A court-Memel of this description ought never to be re-
Sorted to, except In cases of sudden conspiracy, when a regiment
happened to be on the march, or when a mutiny boke out unex-
pectedly. But what was the fact ? Colonel Alle.n adopted this
summary process in a time of profound peace, when the regi-
Meat was stationed at Guernsey, and the men were employed
in the ordinary routine of duty. Ile assembled these courts-
martial within 30 yards of the orderly room of the regiment';
on the:24th of the month he caused men to be tried for offencoi
which had been committed on the 22d, and the sentences were
not carried into effect until the 2eitli. This evidently proved
that there was nothing in the different cases that rendered it ne-
cessary to have recourse to a drum-heed court-martial. TwO
of these men, it should be observed, were sent from the out-
posts to be tried by an ordinary court-martial, but Col. Allen
brought them before a drum-head courtemardal. Private John
Callender' was tried for' having blank muninnition in the breast
of his jacket, instead of placing it in his eartouch-box, when he
was at execise. Private W. Kingston was charged with disobey.,
ing the regimental order, No. 3, which had been promulgated
on the Itith of March, 1817 ; but the charge did not state when,
where, or how, he had disobeyed that order; so that if the ac-
cusation had been put into his hands a week before the trial, lie
could not have known against what he had to defend himself. It
appeared, however, that his offence was nothing more than sup?
porting arms, instead of carrying them, on a certain occasion.
James Stanton was tried for uneoldier-like conduct in getting
drunk. NOW, if there were any crime which was peculierly tin.
fit to be brought before a drum-head court-martial, it was this
very crime ; because they took the offender at the moment when
he was senseless--when his faculties were etupified —when his
reason was in a state of abeyance, and under these manifest
disadvantages they put him on iris trial. It was clear that no
hurry was necessary in this man's case, because the punish-
ment was not inflicted until two days after the commission of the
offence. Another man, for a similar offence, was sentenced in
this summary manner to receive 100 lashes. Private John tiut-
ton was tried for unsoldierlike conduct, in ', levelling; hisig ,v
piece."
One would suppose, from the wording of this
that a
niutinyhad taken place in the regiment, and that this man had
levelled his musket, charged to the muzzle, et his Commanding
rteel,ffizzi. t
v,B.asut
ptlraiectfietscitngwaosi,thtlibeit
ank aupiinlicii7oeludniineitriloailtrine.:c_tolai(irtAltuucirecatucgodilonili.;
com-
plained of was, " for levelling his piece in the air, when the
s
Ltutaraleaprreedeisthioant:ltliejffpernesdeenrt,eidnstead of levwelbleninganwinitidiimvidatl;-,
towards the horiion.—(Laughter.)—Newl
who had exerted his authority for the punishment of such
trifles, came forward aril complained of severity, could the
House be expected to attend to that complaint ? Quis tulere
Graeellor de seditione quxrcan ! He would contend, that an
aofitafncterurngot obeying;
directionsttnelhaetrs wieetheicipetrfleice unayilialerelitolid ,
ou,
goirlttnitaistutnotlei!re-
continued in the service. An individual, who htiotecs:
rlemd
o'ns me
u fem. e,
without reason or necessity, the ordinary rules of the service,
was unfit to remain in his situation. t
ad Allen was dismissed; hut the cernmandereineChief re-
moed.him from the a u'icc in the weir which was 'the least

disadvantageous. Ile was allowed to sell his commission ; al-
though every step he had taken in the service, from his ensigecy
upwards, emanated from the pure grace and favour of, the
Crown. • Fie bad not paid a shilling for his promotion.
Sir 1. COFFIN thought it necessary to say, as his case had
been alluded to, that he had no reason whatever to complain.
Sir 11. WIL;ON wished to know 'whether any rebuke had
been given to the officers who composed' the drum-head courts-
martial to which allusion had been made ?

Lord PALMERSTON said, he had looked into the proceed.
ings of the court-martial by which Col. Allen had been tried,
and it did not appear from them that the Commander-in-Chief.
had rebuked any of the other officers ofthe regiment.
Sir R. WILSON expressed his disapprobation of corporal
punishment. It was wholly unuecessary in the army—it was
liable to very great abuses—and it ought to be put an end to.
He was extremely sorry that the Commander-in-Chief did not
take the opportunity whicw the court-martial on Col. Allen
afforded him, td state his disapproval of the infliction of cor-
poral punishment.
Mr. IL O. BONNET said, it was now officially in proof be-
fore the Howie, that corporal punishment had been inflicted to
a very considerable extent in Col. Allen's regiment ; and, non
constat but that many other regiments in the service might be
treated In the same way. When it was proved that corporal
punishment had been unnecessarily and improperly resorted to,
the Commander-in-Chief was, he conceived, bound to express
his disapprobation of the system.
Mr. HUME obser?ed, that when, in the course of the last
Session, he had made a statement on the subject of corporal
punishment, he was told that no such thing ever took place in
the army. The truth, however, now came out, and it appeared
that corporal punishment was inflicted to a very great extent.
He did not, however, approve of superadding punishment to
that which the sentence of the Court-martial had awarded, as
was done in this case. _

Lord PALMERSTON denied that the Crown had, in the
case of Colonel Allen, superadded punishment to the sentence
pronounced by the Court-martial. The Crown, in the exercise
of its undoubted prerogative, had deemed it necessary to re-
move him.

After a few wordsfrom Sir R. WILSON, Lord PALMER-
STON, Sir JosErn Yon Kt:, and Sir IssAc Comm, the
petition was brought up and laid on the table. On the motion,
" that it be printed,"
Colonel DA VIES rose and said, that he hadno acquaintance
whatever with Col. Allen: he never saw that Gentleman in his
life. Ile thought his removal was a very great stretch of pre-
rogative. He stood there to vindicate a principle, without any
reference to the individual. When the mutiny bill was to be
considered in Committee, it was his intention to move an in.
struction to the Committee on this subject. Col. Allen had ex-
pended 2,0001. in raising 200 men ; anti therefore it Was not
correct to say that he got-I[ns promotion for nothing.
Mr. W. WYNN considered the present as' one of those
cases in which the Crown was imperatively called on to exer-
cise its prerogative, by dismissing an officer without the forms
of a court-martial. That dismissal was effected in the most
lenient manner p.ossible. The CrOvirn might have dismissed
Colonel Allen without any qualification ; instead of which, he
was simply directed to resign, on the same terms and with the
same advantages that could be claimed by any officer who chose
to retire—eer 1)
Sir JOSEPH YORKE was surprised that none of the mi-
litary officers, who sat in that House had opposed the hyper'.
prerogative which his lion. Friend (Mr. iVynn) supported.
It surely would have been better it' they attended to their own
peculiar situation, instead of crying " bear, hear I" The
Noble Lord. made very light of the charges which had been
preferred against certain individuals in Cal. Allen's regiment.
One of these was an accusation against a soldierfor not levelling
his piece properly. Assuredly it was of some importance that sol-
diers should know how to use their arms effectively. It was not
a very easymatter to teach them to do so. He recollected, when
a sergeant of marines was drilling a number of men, so badly
did they point their pieces, that he declared 'he would stand
their fire for a halfpenny a shot, and he was confident he should
make a fortune by it.—( Laugh ter.)—Many of those raw soldiers
appeared more anxious to direct their muskets against Jupi-
ter or Saturn than ii„,iniinst the enerny.—(Laughter.)—Was
drunkenness, he wouldask, a light crime? Those who were
acquainted with ilta.habits of the lower orders must know, that
many of them could not keep them:lives sober when Brim*
was to be procured. Was it fitting that a soldier who thus
misconducted hithself sluiold not be punished'? When no im-
presaion could be made on a twin's reason, it was necessary,
someffiner, to make an impression on his back.,-(A laugh.)—
Gentlemen seemed to be extremely hostile to the system of
corporal punishment. If it were abolished in the army, he
supposed that it would also be abolished in the navy. ire was
not, however, prepared to say, that corporal punishment slionld
be discontinued in the navy ; and he'lloped, if its entire aboli-
don were attempted, that the Gallant Officer (Sir G. CoAtitirni
would resist it. Mucli blame had been imputed to Colonel
Allen ; but why should he alone be selected 11)r censure ? Was
there no other officer in the regiment who concurred in his
proceedings ? Ile thought when a Cabinet Minister came
down and defended so strenuously the prerogative of the CroWn
(which certainly he did not wish to abridge), the Gentlemen
of the army ought to look to their prerogatives, instead of join-
ing in a fine chorus of " Hear, hearl"7,(Laughter.)
A Message from the Lorda announced their Lordships' assent
to the Exchequer rue Bill.
COMMUTATION OF 1121511 TITHES.

Mr. OOIJLIBURN said it was within the recollection of the
House, that during the last Session he bad been repeatedly
pressed,bY several Hon. Members from both sides of the House,
to express what were the opinions and intentions of the Irish
Government upon the subject of a commutation of tithes, and
that he had uniformly replied, that early in the present Session
he should be prepared to introduce either a measure for the con-
sideration of l'aillement, or to State the reasois why the Gevern.
ment of Ireland were unable to recommend any particular pro-
position to the House. It was to Mill the pledge which itched
so Made that he now Offered himself to occupy.their attention,
while he developer the course which, with the leave of the
Itotise, the Irish Government were prepared 4) puraue. In en.
tering upon such a subject; he was far from being insensible
of the difficulty of tht task' which he had undertaken :. it was,
indeed, impossible to Conteroplate the vast and cemplicated-in.
terests involved and comprehended in the toiestiou of tithes,
—their identificetion with the institutions of the country—
and the various opinions afloat thereupon, without heitig pre.
pared; when introducing a plan in the way of remedy, to e*-
Peet a great variety of conflicting Opinions, and to have.to rein.
thwish luqll'oPea ofsecurhiggeneral approbation : not withstanding
is impossibility to attain unanimity, he still thought it right
to propose for discussion the best plan which, after mature con-
sideration, he was prepared to submit to the Ilouse—a plan
which he knew at the same time must excite apprehensions in
seine minds, and distrust in others; neverthelesS; the time lied,
he thought, arrived, when some specific measure became expe-
dient; and he therefore trusted that they would not receive un-
farourably (at least at the outset) a aproposition which had so many
reasons, prompted him to urge.—(Hear, .hear he thought
this were the proper stage for him to enter into minute and
detailed explanations, I.e would have been ready to go into
an extent of argument elucidatory of the foundation upon
which the principle ofThis measure rested; but be collected,
that, in the opinion of many persona whose judgment he
respected, it would be More expedient' and agreeable to
them, and more generally satisfactory to the country at
large, were lie on the present occasion tq oolitic himself
to a simple staterneot of the outline' of his 1101, to have
it printed and generally circulated throughout the country,
aid to postpone the general discussion upon the details
until a future period, sufficiently distant to admit of the ex.
pression'of the sense of the country upon its Merits—Vim,
hear o—Under these feelings, he should now propose to state
the objects he had in view. It was his intention to request
leave for the introduction of two separate hills.:--one intended to
promote a temporary composition of tithealri Ireland, fora tinie
to be limited; the other for a penman it commutation. Instead
of seperating.his explanation of each, be should, for breYitY's
sake combinehis argunienta upon both:.
,Passing bY, therefore,
all general obsorvatMns, he should at once enter into the de.
stription of the mechanism of 'his ,propmed measures. His
first hill related to the limited composition, and proceeded
upon' the prineiple of endete6uring effect a voluntary agree-
merit between the owners and the payers of tithes; and the
,mode by which it was proposed to effect that voluntary agree-
ment was, by an arrangement rendered complicated intleedin
its process by the peril-liar situation of Ireland, the minute ex.
tent of the claim of tithes upon all classes, and by the difficulty
of working apy. local machinery that country, owing to the
different teriipers and habits so ofien foUnd in the middle
and lower classes there, compared with those of the correspond..
ing ranks in Englund, whose executive assistance was resorted
to with se much-effect and advantage in local measures. The
proposed 'aliibridnient was this, that the Lord Lieutenant should

. . .
have the power,
_upon the reqtheition of the iectiMbent of any
benefice or parish, or.upon the desire, of nerti 4the
payers of tithe* 'Within the parish, to direct the eaktollit; ast
a.given,number of theta habitants act in the nafure ti a
vestref,"tereottliite the preliiiiinaty,natitte of it)ie. A •
mint between the parties. It was 'obrious' that 'midi 7 ►e
value, andiustice, and satisfaction of the arrangemeer
dependi upon the character and conduct of the parties kr C; act
a special vestry, in regetating the Mode of conoicedifenie
was therefore intended to propose a qualification whit-la4:ff?
constitute the eligibility of the periallioner to tit upon the in-
quiry : those who paid a particular amount of tithes were tiliqe
to be competent for the purpoee, so as to ceelude the treat
mass of the mall payers, whoie presence would, in ail orehalif-
lay, instead of asaistingin the progreas of the arrarigerherit, MP'
its settlemeht, and mauler, as Was often found in popular meet'ks
the place a scene of.turoult and contention, inatead of butineee
and mutual communication. Ile trusted that the parionS ctiZed
to act in behalf of the parishes in this busiheSs would be pane
dent, impartial, and sensible men, who would act faik 0.0
justly in the performance of the doty tissiehrd' to theta.. Stich
persona Would, ne it were, be a representative body lonihe part
of the parish ; and fmtu the circumstance of their paying e
higher amount of tithe theh the great bulk of theit,
parishionent, they tnuet naturally be deernel by the latter as
sufficiently interested in promoting the fair economy of the
whole. To 4 special Vestry, so constituted, it was inteentlect
to intrust the power' of selecting some persops of propeetY, .
whose qualifications were to be described in, the BM, vtlio
were to open a negotiation for the composition of the c:theie
of their parish for a time to, be limited. One. Cominii-
sionner was to be appointed onthe part of the parish, and
the incumbent was to have the power of nominitting another
Commissioner to treat on the subject. To avoid, lieWerela
the possibility of the incumbent's appointing an Incompeteet
person, it was to be in the power of the vestry to object, open
showing sufficient cause. The two commissioners, when tip.pointed-, were to have dig: power of nominating fill umpire,
should they nisagree upon terms ; and, in the event of the um.
pire not deciding, it wee to he in the power of the Lord leite.
tenant to nominate an umpire fur the purpose. tie had omitted
to state in his preliminary obeervations, when he stoke of the
assembling of the select vestry, and three cars might he ex-
pected to arise---either the clergyman or the perish int& be
unwilling to change their existing situation ; and in Such an
event, the bill was to have no operation : air one might be wil-
ling or the other'not: SuppOting the' machinery of the bill to
work smoothly, and the parties to act in emit:eft, then the gnate
tion would arise upon the manner of affixing inscaleof pecuniary,.
calculation anti for this be proposed that the average price et
corn for the three proceeding years should be taken as a stand-
ard, and that triennially the compact should' be renewcd-
was aware that certain compositions of a shiliiar nature had been
made upon an average of I l scars' produce; but over suet
an extent of time there was the difficulty of making the Novo-
sition on a scale ton high for the clergyman, anti therefore inn:
reasonable for the pariehioners"' or :Ice verse ; lie thought the
triennial adjustment better anti fairer fur all parties. NI ith re-
spect to the manner oflevying.the cotnpositiOn upon the pa riehi.
oners, it was intended to appoint special assessors, who were to
affix and levy the several eiteesemenis upon the 1161410ga of
individuals within their parish, in a treinner similar to the
poor-rates assessments in this country by the local vestries.
Land at present tithe-free was of course to retain its pre-
sent exemption ; but there wits another species of Liod—
that which paid tithe in agistment--:WhiCh was not to be eo
exempt, but to bear its equal proportion of the assessment.—
(hear hear I)—The only remaining point to explain tespecting
the temporary bill was to secure to the incumbent his power of
levy in case Of non-payment ; and there it was provided, that
his eubeistipg remedy, namely, a priority of claim upon the
crop before the landlord, should he still secured to him. Such
watt the outline of his temporary measure. His permanent one
was this--it was proposed that in every case where the mutual
assent of the clergyman and the parishioners should be ap-
pointed, a permanent contract should be entered into for the
purpose of securing to the incumbent a certain proportion of
land in fee, in lieu of tithes. The patties were to have the
poiver of applying to the Commissioners for the Reduction of
the National Debt fur money to purchase such lend in fee and
they were to be repaid for the interest and principal tit' the
money so sunk by the Incr amount of the. composition affixed
for the tithes of the parish. This made of raising the money
would ultimately prove advantageous to the public; for the
terms upon which, according to the number of yews' purchase
land could be obtained in /rebind, were so fevourable, that the
eventual income received Sty the Commissioners would increase
hest greater comparative value, and allied them an owes/mei
facility of pnrehaeMg up the debt. Ile truced that this would
be found to be a measure, not having regard to any local or
mere individual interests, but directed to the Attainment of
sods highly essential to the common good—Weer, beer is—
that whatever tiefecte he might have Admitted into it, credit
would be given ut least for sincere intention to mike its opera-
tion subservient to the geheral welfare, trenquillity, steel hep.
Kinjantlsth°efn moved
itel4nd—"(kr leave
iieer.)—t' orilberiintg4inht
Commutation of Tithes for a temporary period in Irelaud."--
(Hear!)
Mr. Al. FITZGERAI4II.gave the Right Honourable Oen-
tleman great credit fee the introduction of these very bent:-
tidal measures. As to the second Object of his proposition,
which related to the Bill with the permanent periods, he (Mr.
Fitzgerald) confessed he did not exactly tee bow it was to ape-
rate. As to the first, which regarded the temporary period,
he was equally unable to imagine how it was to be limited..-..
He could not undenoand what necessity existed for a recurrence
to those short periods of three years esch, which the Right
honourable Gentleman had spoken of; neither could he anti.
cipate the practicability of that part of the scheme which arm.
the assembling of special vestries for particular- pur-
posies. The Right lion. Gentleman he was sure, would excuse
r him for any misapprehension under which he might labour, and
would kindly answer his, possibly, ignorant objections. (Hear !)
But this last project did seem quite inapplicable to many
.parishes of Ireland ; in several of' which parishes the-RightHon.
Hon. Gentleman would not find a single substantial. farmer,
such as he had described-3611104e would .he meet, there, with
a resident Gentleman ; and in very many of them there seas not
!one person worming the established religion.-4 A laugh.)--
How the clause about special vestries was to hare effect under
such circumstances, he knew not. It appeared to him, moreover,
that this Bill would retain much of that uncerteintv which had,
in all times, been the great evil of the tithe spout. The frequent
valuations Which it contemplated' would leave matters as timer-
tled as ever. He was very sure that in the ptopoidtion he was
about to suggest, the Right Hon. Gentleman Would give hint
credit for being actuated solely by anxiety for the: security and
comfort of the Established Church in Ireland. It wax shortly
this—while he agreed with the'Right hon. Gentleman, in -thin-
sidering that in any arrangement which might he made, they
should not increase the measure of income to the establithed
clergy, which was generally cOnaidered, aireseut, to bequite
.sufficient,--(hear, hear!)—it would yet be thought to be quite
equitable to include in that arrangement, .the lande'that were
et present free of the agistment tithe. Ile proposed, therefore,
that the agiatment tithe should be included. lie did net at
the genie time agree with those who considered that the vote
of the Irish Parliament, in 173 n, in respect of that tittle, was a
robbery. The fact was, that a great ninny new claims werathen
set up by the clergy; but he did riot believe that thealsish
clergy lied ever at kny time levied the tithe of ligietmentoe-
'The claim certainly was made in the Court of Exchequer and
by that Court confirmed. The increase wait never attempted to
lie put in execution till the petit ii .of the Union. The ,'pro-
pored arrangement for the support of the clergy was to he an
equitable one, the house was told : he therefore trusted that it
would be effected by an equitable levy on lands of all &scrip-
tioni, including those which were now cons ideted tithe free.
Ile wished alto that the arrangement should bear referenee in
every case to the labour pet-forma Streit a proposition WI lie
had ventured to suggest, he thought, would be the.more ad-
visable, because it would be of a permanent maitre, and would
benefit the landed interest.
Sir HENRY PARNEIati wag
,pleased with the principle of
the Ittglit Ilonoorable Gentleman s measure ; but btrlititinot
stated to the" House the principle open which Ole peopesed
commutation was to be levied,- nor at whet tittle tt was to lake
• place. As to the propoeltion, geperally, he fterieTPaleli)
'should certainly option ins ea it .livelieen very ;that
ivoula effectually' ;get rid of the annual v
a_uations hp tithe
proctors.
Sir j, NEwiloßT rose to express his' great satisfaction._ at
finding this subject brought forward "f"4,._"'ae,.. 03.tinute
ilsl-
jeetee Government, that le could not 1,411‘ productive;
the happiest etfecis. If he unitpetoort trio reign; 110404171)1t.
left(' 17
left
inrttel4 le valuation
1 it
u. thLe::*ll:;:;lll)t'lDifatliir the
Lli°4llsl,