The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-06 00:00:00

spoke of the great accumulation of criminals in this counts,'
which the plan proposed would cause; but with reference
em to
that he would ask, was not the facility of controlling th
greater at home than abroad, where they would be under the
immediate eye of the Government? He also expressed a fear of
to the propriety of interfering with the system
assignment, but it was well known that that was a most horrid
system, and in the great majority of cases the parties stood in
the same relation to each other as in a state of slavery. In
eve
evidence taken before the Committee on this subject, .e
which Sir William Moles worth presided, it was shown that the
condition of the convicts was most degrading and dernorabzinig:
They were told besides that if the system proposed were c!arr_set
out, and the late system of transportation abolished, the cnaPgr
would be extremely injurious, and there would be nn
any safety for society. His Noble and Learned Friend stolen
Denman) also adduced the case of a wealthy receiver of stneul
property, whose punishment in case of conviction I
be evaded. Did the Noble Lord know,
what had happened under the late system tell oil
portation? If not he (Earl Grey) would tell n 0..
A receiver of stolen goods of enormous wealth had been
lac
victed some time since, and sentenced to be transported•
errs
managed to evade the law as to forfeiture of the prop. 7
of felons, and brought it with him to New South tl,
bower
net!
When he arrived there he got himself assignsd, and in II short
time was as well off under this system of assignment as el
he was in the city of London. —( Laughter.)
Lord STANLEY—That could net be done now.
Earl GREY only adduced the case to show that the
ow!,
system was one which was very susceptible of improverun_..!,
Under the existing system of transportation, a man gate cr"
. into
to fourteen years was sent to Van Dieman's Land, and Vl' .04
a penal gang, and if he exhibited good conduct, after a loP,„,
of eight years he got a conditional pardon, which madeonulZ
free, except that he must not return to England, altb the
he might go to India, China, or other countries. under
LsAd,
system proposed, instead of being sent to Van Diernante ge
the offender was immediately to be put into Penton/01(s+ e
was not sent into a penal gang, where little or no di °Pent,
was maintained, but he was placed in separate etpufiuel of
with discipline so severe, that the Noble Duke (tbe pue t
loos
Richmond) said &ghteen months' continuance of it was & A be
too much for human nature ; and at the end of that peri,?Zer,
was removed into penal labour on the public works. l"tbe,
was, therefore, penal labour under both systems, but
ed
difference consisted in this, that under tbe 'Pr°4l;stto
system the offender would be put under an inun io
and effective system of discipline. But then, after a cer
time, the criminal should be sent out to Van Ij°
where he would find himself in the same condition as thou%
he had begun to bear his punishment in Australia, for he sold
receive a conditional pardon, and at the end of ,he time wau.,
be discharged free in that country, as under the systens it Pr's°
sent existing. He had always admitted that transportation,.
far as it provided a refuge for the offender after his
was at an end, was of the greatest possible use, for a new OILY,.
offered an opportunity which could not be found in them clt"
country. But his Noble Friend opposite had said that the
evils resulting to the colonies from the old system of WWI,
tation might have been prevented if the most common Preto
tions had been taken. But he (Earl Grey) asked how it e&,„
to ,iass that the evil results of that neglect had grow and lid
penal perloo:
tinued for a term of six years? Why, such a state of things "14,
not have existed for six months in this country, where pow,
opinion would not have permitted it to continue; and ehat'o.
doubt was an advantage to be derived from the system f
posed to be adopted, that their officers were under onnaetllietd
and strict surveillance, that evils could be instantly
.eh'e,hey
and results modified. For it was not the rules which `ted,
might have upon paper which affected the system as it ea
which would always be guided by the rules that were act& for
in force. His Noble Friend had very good rules drawn "tiret
the regulation of the penal colony, but where was the %Ito
which they produced? But it was urged by the Noble {see
that a system of penal labou'- would not be tolerated by .„i
people. He (Earl Grey) asked whether that could be:i4
argument in favour of transportation ? For if England,,rt:ol
not bear that which was for their own advantage, enu",,;) Id
expect that a small community in Van Dieman's Lod - h°o
hear it? Were they now to treat the colonies thus, 100
Englishmen more and more felt the necessity of having log
institutions tinder which they had been trained. 1.13 et sit
had come when these institutions must be introduced last-isir
their colonies, and he trusted in the present session to tbe
in a measure to that effect. The time was come 016'4 to
advantage of representative Government must be grant lir
Australia. The Noble Duke had said that exile from aryoro
Live land and their families was felt by offenders as a not
punishment and a great trial. He (Earl Grey) ie,_2:to be
of opinion that these sacred ties of human nature ougoluol•
made a means of punishment. It was certain that the Rtio.
tutted criminal possessed few of these finer feelings Of 4b,under
nity. It was also certain that the professional °",-,ll'
had but few family ties to attach him anYwrist;
and it was only the man who had been betrayed the
the first beginnings of crime that would feel sa rre
Noble Duke had described. If, however, it appeared prod
them ever to use this as a means of punishment, they ba
power of doing so while the prisoner was at Pentonchlteoor
Portland, by excluding for a longer or shorter period e.,!' the,
munication with their friends or families. '" 000
old days of tr nsportation, he said they used t°, that
out the wife of the family with the offender, ba:ssioo
custom was discontinued, with the most Per". to
effects. The Government intended, therefore,f the
send out the wife and family after a certain period
offender's punishment had been endured, and he ant,lAc'sostr
that these intentions of the Government being carri`loles.
with proper precaution would be beneficial even to the c°iiest
In fact, there was a demand its some of the colonies ford h°
but for those who were not hardened, and corrupted.anuro
less, such as were sent before. It had been objecte;, for
this new system would necessitate a large expendit".-00
those persons. Now, the fact was, if they .her
them to the colonies, provision must be made for them e;
whether, therefore, at home or abroad, provision roust troiese
ready; and, indeed, Portland would be in a state of Tea Earl
very soon, for the reception of prisoners. The Noble
stets
concluded by expressing his hope that the propose"
would tend to diminish crime, and reform the offenders. 01
Lord DENMAN rose to explain. He said he
wish to be misunderstood by their Lordships, and esPr,"tbot
the Noble Earl who had just sat down. When it said ;DA
when a man was sentenced to seven years trans rtatioo
was sent to the hulks for four years, he did not hesitate to I"'
that in the hulks the man, for anything any one knew, wai°,° :
his way to the colonies, and it appertained to the agent m
Crown to pardon him at the end of four years. But to char:t;
the nature of the punishment pronounced upon him was Act
legal, and it was not competent for them to do so except bf •"„
of Parliament pa“ed for the purpose. He would not bet."'
derstood as defending the system of transportation in ex nee.
n
'te
In his opinion it was an abominable practice.
After a few words from the Marquis of S ALISB
the table, the Bills were then read a second time.
Their Lordships then adjourned. URI' across

HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 5.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
Papers from the Poor-law Commissioners were Pre•
seated. 1 Stae
The second reading of the Leominster wri al3B
Navigation Bill was postponed for a week.
SECOND READINGS. spa
The following Bills were read a second time'
ordered to be committed:—

Belfast Port and Harbour.
Cambridge, SL Neot's, and Bedford Junction Rtiiilla)ai.
East Lancashire Railway (Clitheroe, Mitton, and
ham, Branches). Asa
Edinburgh and Northern Railway (St. Andrew's
Newburgh Harbour, Branches, and Road Crooil3°
Newport Railway Extension). A
Great Northern Railway (Branch to Horncastle
Brayford Mere, Lincoln). t eet,
London and North-Western Railway (L'n3e-81
Liverpool, Station Extension, &e. ti 014
London and North• Western Railway (Portobe°
Wolverhampton Branch, &c.)
Newcastle and Berwick Railway (Cramlington and e
Main, and Killingworth and other Branches).
Taw Vale R.ailvvay and Dock. oily
York and Newcastle Railway (Hartlepool Dock and air'
way, and Great North of England, Clarence, and
tlepool Junction Railway, Lease and Purchaie2,lo
THE LONDON SEWAGE CHEMICAL MAN"

COMPAY.
Sir DE LACY EVANS broNught in this Bill, Wbicb
was read a first time.

. (31
Mr. BROTHERTONMALT presented two petitions, c)--e
the
which was from a place in Devonshire, praying that for
_ •

House would pass a law to prevent the use of'lo3l4v,
the purpose of distillation during the present calan3'
ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIEF BILL. tbiil
Sir It. IL INGLIS presented petitions against
Bill.

AVIGATION
Mr. MITCALFE presented a pLAWSetition from shipoWl3
its North Shields against the repeal of these laws. •
LIGHT DUES.
Mr. HUME presented a petition from the shipoW net' of
of the port of Arbroath complaining of the butdso
theM light dues. eCt•
r. FORSTER presented a petition to the same efr
- -

PUNISIIMENT OF DEA VII.
et}'
its,
Mr. HUNIE presented a petition from a soc'el'fis,'
London calling themselves " Free-thinking Christt,
praying for the abolition of the punishment of des
tP
JA OF SATTARA.
Mr. B. ESCOTT presented a petition from the I tin%
bitantrs of Westminster, agreed to at a public !need, in
ove which General Sir De Lacy Evans preside
support of the claims of the pet of Sattara. 00°
Sir B. HALL presented a tion from SL
to the same effect.

HIGHWAY ACTS. clige
Mr. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from a
in the Isle of Wight, pray ing for an amendment in '4'
Acts.

UNIVERSAL PEACE. c°
Mr. HINDLEY presented a petition from the 3_,..11tv
tinge of the Society for Promoting Universal reschol
(Laughter)—stating that they considered the Heuse6,.,o" y"
opted a very erroneous course in increasing the —O, 0
!
and nuvy estimates, and stating that the only '"1,110
promote the safety of the nation was, by inculcating'' •
principles of universal love and justice, and not
fir,)
blind reliance upon brute force.—(Renewed isog
He entirely concurred in the prayer of the petition.
(Cries of "Order, order," and laughter.)
FAST
NATIONAL . oar
Mr. TOLLE ,IANACHEO presented a petition in till-
of a day being set apart for fast and humiliation.
ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIEF BILL. a
Th.. Earl of SURREY presented a petition from
place in Warwickshire in favour of this Bill.
LAWS OF QUARANTINE.
Dr. BOWRING desired to know whether any chsogeol
had taken place in the laws of quarantine? ar.13.,4 R;
0,64,
whether the Vice-President of the Board of
would have any objection to place them upon the table
of the House?
Mr. MILNER GIBSON, in answer to the question;
°
had to say, that the only new regulation which be kJ f
df was, that ships from Turkey, having clean bills
health, and in which there was no suspicion of gel'
ness, were free from quarantine.
POOR LAW FOR IRELAND.
Mr. POULETT SCROPE presented a petition from
a pal i,ll in the county of Cork, which stated t
fro hat ther.e
were many thousand persons there suffering m desil:
tution, and that such did not arise from any F
property in the neighbourhood, but from the absence
many proprietors, and the refusal of others to support
poor ; the petitioners prayed for a complete poor
law, similar to the English.want coa.
Mr. LABOUCHERE presented a petition from the
Commissioners of Cashel, praying for union rating.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
On the motion of Mr. PARKER, it was agreed tai
the House at its rising should adjourn till Diontitty.