The Sun.
London, England, 1847-05-15 00:00:00

THE SUN,

able.bodied indispensable to their preservation.—(Hear.)
If they taught the people of Ireland that the Bill was merely
intended to meet the present emergency, and to be abrogated
as coon as it had passed away, he considered that it would be
fraught with the greatest danger to both countries; but if it
were passed as proposed, it would settle the public mind on the
subject ; its principles and objects would become generally
known, and the people would know the position in which they
were placed ; and, therefore, he should vote for the Bill being
made a permanent one.
Earl WICKLOW hoped their Lordships would not depart
from their original decision. It had been said that if the
measure were made a temporary one, that the guardians would
work ineffectually; but he considered that the best way to see
how they would work for the future, was by making the Bill a
temporary one. He was in favour of its permanency, and
had proposed a motion to that effect, in order that the
subject might in a few years come again under revision, when
the experience which they would have obtained would enable
them to maturely improve its provisions. If their Lordships'
should not confirm their former decision, he should feel it his
duty to move, when they came to the last clause, that the Bill
should be limited to three years.
The Earl of RIPON said that after having given the Bill
the most minute attention and consideration he had come to
the conclusion that this measure was not calculated to relieve
the evils which at present afflcted Ireland. A system of out-
door relief might indeed provide for a few able-bodied poor,
but it certainly would not enable them to provide for their fa-
m„ies. The principle, as applied to England, had not had
that effect, it did not therefore appear likely to have it with
regard to Ireland, he hoped their Lordships would most se-
riously consider the matter before applying to Ireland perma-
nently a measure of the effect of which they were not able to
judge, and which was by no means certain to be carried effec-
tually into operation.
The Earl of RODEN said that he trusted that their Lord-
ships had sufficiently considered this Bill to have enabled them
to have come to the conclusion that it might be benficial if
passed temporarily, but as a permanent measure would be
worse than useless. If it were once passed by that House as
a temporary measure, all classes in Ireland would have the
greatest anxiety to carry It well into effect, however much
they might dissent from many of its clauses ; but if it were in-
flicted upon them as a permanent Bill, not only would its ope-
ration be inefficient, but rarst likely productive of mischief.
If the Bill worked well, nothing could be easier than after-
wards to render it a permanent one, but if worked badly, they
would have round their necks a burden which they would be
unable to relieve themselves of.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM (who was indistinctly heard) en-
tirely concurred in the observations of the Noble Lord who had
last spoken. With regard to the nature of this Bill, he
thought that if it were to be applied as a permanent act of
Legislation the difficulties in its administration would be in-
creased tenfold ; and their Lordships would have no oppor-
tunity of revising the decision they had given should the mea-
sure prove to be inoperative, or mischievous in its effects. He
thought that the most serious consideration should be given by
their Lordships to the whole matter, before they affirmed a
principle which would saddle Ireland with a permanent Bill—.
of the operation of which, whether for good or evil they were
at present utterly unable to form an opinion.
Earl FORTESCUE said, he was of opinion that the diffi-
culties on the subject of this Bill would be considerably in-
creased if they adopted the proposal of the opponents to the Bill.
One of the arguments in favour of this commission was, that
after a course of five years, it would be found whether it worked
well or ill. ( The Noble Earl was almost inaudible.)
The Archbishop of DUBLIN—His opinions on this B;"

were unchanled. The opponents to this Bill were still of
opinion that. there was too great a difference between Ireland
and England to render the application of this Bill to the former
country effective. This Bill was a very hazardous experiment,
though he did not blame those who brought forward the mea-
sure, for they had but a choice of evils. He could most
solemnly assure their Lordships, that he was only hostile to
this measure from its being, as he had just said, a most hazard-
ous experiment. If they legislated on the principle of this Bill
for Ireland, they would fid it impossible to recede from
that principle afterwards. He would wish to see the
Bill in operation for a short time, and then that
their Lordships should be imperatively called upon to revise it
if that were found to be necessary. There was another class
who should be considered in leiislating on this subject, namely,
the clergy, and who, in the aftl ction that had visited Ireland,
had been foremost in relieving the people of all religious deno-
minations.—( Hear, hear.) The clergy had made many
sacrifices to relieve that distress, and except in the cases of a
few fanatical persons, without any attempt at proselytism. And
it was this class, he asserted without fear of contradiction, that
would suffer from the burden t hat would be imposed by this Bill.
The clergy were supposed to be rated to the poor-rates, but
when the tithe commutation was made in England it was sup.
posed to be free of all rates and taxes. When, however, the
commutation of the tithes in Ireland took place it was con-
sidered as the rental of the property minus the poor-rate,
there being at that time no poor-rates in existence in Ireland.
He considered that the clergy would be placed under consider-
able hardship by the passing of this measure. He could not
forbear bearing his humble testimony to the constant and Iltli •
form attention which the Lord-Lieutenant had paid to the best
and purest interests of the Church of England in that
country. That nobleman had rendered many great and
important services to the church, and he begged to tender
both to him and to her Majesty's adviser, his most grateful
thanks for the attention they had paid to that important sub-
ject.—( Hear, hear.) The sound judgment, and the firmness
which he had invariably displayed in the performance of the
difficult duties which devolved upon him, would render his
government in that country worthy to be long remembered by
the people of Ireland,—( Cheers.)
The Marquis of CONYNGHAM could not participate in
the fears which had been expressed by many Noble Lords as to
the result of the working of this measure. He believed that
by establishing a principle of out-door relief. a great deal would
be done to ameliorate the condition of the people of Ireland This
Bill would discourage that fearful amount of crime and misery
which existed in Ireland, by telling the people of that country
that they had a right to relief from their more wealthy neigh-
bours,
and that they need not starve or perish through age or
infirmity, or for want of the common necessaries of life. The
Bill would also compel the landlords to lock more closely to
their own interests, and to attend more to the cultivation of
the soil than they had hitherto done. He did not entertain
so Utopian a notion as to suppose ihat this measure would
iprovethought,
hrh
aeoancnu itdeanhhrntomes a:rwcnoeea for all the evils which afflicted Ireland. He
etseaystrpeee(rpep,t
appeared
at
et
earh:ei
(present)
ordered
tyfi
o)t
support
ja se.
withdraw,
right
54direction.
r
Non-contents tbes (epurceasellnetd)
Majority in favour of the resolution
Had Ntheri
their numbers would-4(2als2we un-
derstoo(d)Contents
been
62 N o n -con
Majorityt en ts
of . ... . ... favourof
. 44
the
motion ............................
Majority present in favour of ..
;11e 8
motion ..................... 12
Total majority for Ministers ....... _3O
The Earl of CLANCARTY then proposed the following
amendment to the first clause :—" And whereas, from the in-
sufficiency of room, or some other cause, the guardians of
the poor may be sometimes unable to afford relief within the
workhouse to all who are proper objects to be so relieved ; be it
enacted that if at any time it should be shown to the satis-
faction of the Poor-law Commissioners, that by reason of the
want of room in the workhouse for any more, adequate relief
cannot be afforded therein, or by reason of fever or infectious
disease, or are unfit for the reception of poor persons, or that
by reason of the dilapidated state of the workhouse suitable
accommodation cannot be afforded therein for the destitute
poor, it shall be lawful for the Commissioners to empower
the guardians for any time not exceeding six months
from the date cf such order, to administer relief out of the
workhouse, to such destitute poor persons applying for relief,
as cannot be reeeived and maintained in it; and they shall be
empowered accordingly to make provision for their relief for
the time specified in the order, provided that all relief given
out of the workhouse shall be given in food ; only save in any
case of sudden or urgent necessity, with power to the Com-
missioners to revoke the order within the period for which it
may have been issued, or to renew and extend the same from
time to time, so as to extend the period of its operation, as
the circumstances of the case may require."
Earl GREY opposed the amendment, on the ground that
the Bill, as it stood, effected the object which the Noble Earl
seemed to have in view, or the permanently disabled poor
would only receive relief out of the workhouse when it was
unable to receive them. The Bill had been carefully drawn up.
The amendment was negatived without a division.
The Earl of LUCA N then moved the following clauses—
" 'that for the purpose of charging the expense of relief to
every electoral division, no person shall after the passing of this
Act be deemed to have been resident in such electoral
division, unless during the three years before his admission to
the workhouse, or his receiving any relief whatever, he had
occupied some tenement within such division ft.r thirty calendar
months, or if he have not occupied such tenement, have slept
within such division for the space of thirty calendar months."
After a few words from several Noble Loids, the clause was
agreed to.

Lord MON TE AG LE moved a clause that no sums of money
granted for the relief of destitute persons, should be applied for
the payment of rent.
Alter a few words from Earl GREY,
The clause was withdrawn, and the report was agreed to.
Several Bills were then forwarded a stage, and
Their Lordships adjourned shortly after Half-past Ten
o'clock.

HOUSE (IF GUM ti OA'S. May 14.
ThP 'SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Fuur
o'clock.

SECOND READINGS.

The following Bills were read a second time, and
(inbred to lie committed :
British Amortean Land Company.
Van liumen's Land Company.

RE.Poias.
The reports on the following Bills were brought up:—
Braintree and Halstead Railway.
Dublin and Drogheda Railway (Branch from Navan to

Enfield and Edmonton Railway Extension.
,'Midland Great West,,rn Railway of Ireland (Extension
from Athlone to Galway).
Midland Great We,tern Railway of Ireland (Newcastle,
Annisltinnan, and Baltrasna Deviations).
South Staffordshire Railway (Cannock, Wyrley, and
Norton Branches, &c.)
Stutionishire Potteries Waterworks.
Westminster Improvements.
The reports on the lollovving Bills were considered and
agreed to :—Dublin Consumers Gas ; Edinburgh Mar-
kets and Cus.oms ; Leith Harbour and Docks Dues ;
Runcorn Gas,.

THIRD READINGS.
The following Bilis were read a third time and
pased:—

-Boston, Stamford, and Birmingham Railway (Peterbo-
rough and Thorney line).
Chard Canal and Railway (Extension and Amalgama-

Glas,,ovv, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway
(NO. 4).
Herne Bay and Canterbury Junction Railway.
Liskeard and Caradon Railway.
Southaripton and liwchestQr Railway (New Forest
Deviati,n acid Branches).
South Wales Railway.
Vale of Neath Railway.
Wexford and Valencia Railway (Killarney to V,,lcncia.).
Wilts, Somerset, and Weymouth Railway (No. 1—
Brut ,n, Pitcombe, and Itoddeta and Bradford De-
viations).
Wolverhampton Rates.
DERBYSHIRE, STAFFORDSHIRE, AND WOR-
CESTERSHIRE JUNCTION RAILWAY.
Mr. H. BERKELEY moved, " That the Select Com-
mittee on Group 26 have leave to proceed with the Der-
hvshire, Staffordshire, and Worcestershire Junction
R:Lilw,iy Bill on .11,nday next, notwithstanding the
scven clear days' notice, requir,d by Standing Order
145, will not have expired until Thursday next."
Agreed to.