The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-28 00:00:00

GROUP LI.

The Committee assembled this morning in Room No. 29.
Present, Sir John Yarde Buller (chairman), Mr. Tollemache,
Captain Plumridge, Mr. Newdegate, and Lord John Manners.
GLASGOW, DUMFRIES, AND CARLISLE,
AND GLASGOW, PAISLEY, !HILMAR-
NOCE, AND AYR (No. I,)
Additional evidence was called by the promoters of this
Bill.

Mr. Alexander, examined by Sir T. nature., was called
to prove the protest which was put in by the promoters.
Mr. Sergeant MURPHY wished to know whether he should
be entitled to examine the witness on this subject?
Sir Tuomns Pinuars said he did not intend to examine
upon the point.
The CIIAIRXVN then said that as the Committee had called
for this protest, and as the examining Counsel did not desire
to examine upon it, he thought that it would be unnecessary
for Sergeant Murphy to ask any question on the subject.
The protest was then read, and put in.
Captain Turner, shipmaster, Dumfries,
i was ship's hus-
band of the vessels in which he had an interest. He was
well acquainted with the coast and with the navigation of
the Solway. The loss of vessels was not by any means rare
in the Frith; within the last two or three years no less than
six vessels were lost on the coast or on the Solway. He re-
membered the loss of the Solway steamer, which was bound
from Belfast to Port Carlisle. He imported from
the English coal fields 1,200 to 1,500 tons yearly.
It cost Ss. 6d. at Carlisle, and, with Is. 6d. for
carriage, averaged 10s. in Dumfries. The price
at Belfast was some 17s. per tou ; and the saving, it Kirkcud-
bright were a port of shipment to the people of Belfast,
would be about 35., as compared with the port of Annan at
that time.

Cross-examined by Mr. Sergeant Mutrnr —He had
never known any shipment from Kirkcudbright to Ireland.
There was a large trade from Annan. The trade of Dum-
fries was larger, although Annan possessed a deeper river, and
could therefore accommodate vessels of larger burden. He did
not say that the Solway was lost in a fog, but he believed
that she was crowded with cattle. She was lost at a place
called Southerness, about 16 miles below Dumfries. The
freight from Port Carlisle to Ireland was 7s. 6d. He could
not doubt that if a railway were extended from Canobie to
Annan, the carriage of coals to this place would be less by
3s. 4d. per ton than to Kirkcudbright, but then the latter
place had the advantage in the sea carriage to Ireland. He
knew that at low water ships would be obliged to anchor six
miles from shore. He did not know that Lord Selkirk, whose
grounds lay between the sea and the town, was opposed to
railways.
as more dangerous
aagation Com-
pany, a merchant,
Mr. Henry Smith, living at Fleetwood, 7
and agent for the North Lancashire Steam
Issvi
and was well acquainted withthelports on the Solway.
The navigation, of the Solway Frith.
than any on the west coast of England. He included the
Frith,
of Carlisle, Annan, and Dumfries.
Goode entering the
Frith, cud intended for Culisle, 'Fere Qblige4

transhipped and conveyed up the river in barges. Annan
was a dangerous port for shipping. He did not mean Annan
itself, but a place called the Waterfoot, about a couple
of miles below. Glencaple was the port of Dumfries, and
passengers and goods were 'obliged to be conveyed from
thence to Dumfries, a distance of seven or eight miles.
When the tide was very low, which occurred perhaps thrice
a year, they could not approach Dumfries nearer than
Carsethorn, a place about fifteen miles down the river. The
witness detailed the number of communications from
Whitehaven and Fleetwood to Belfast. The distance from
Fleetwood to Newcastle was perhaps 200 miles by rail, while
from Kirkcudbright it was little more than 100. Goods
sent from Belfast to Newcastle and the east of England at
present went round to Glasgow, thence by railway to
Leith ; these were re-shipped and reached Newcastle by sea.
He considered that competition was absolutely necessary to
protect the public against railway companies. An instance
in proof of this came under his notice. When only two
companies were carrying from Fleetwood to Manchester the
prices charged for carriage was as 13s. 4d. per ton ; but, after
the North Union Railway came into the field, the price was
reduced to 65., while attention to the comforts of the people
was greatly increased. He considered that it would be of
the highest importance that this Bill should be sanctioned.
Cross-examined by Mr. Sergeant Mummy—lt was his
opinion that Kirkcudbright, if this railway were completed,
would be the port for the traffic of Ireland intended for the
south of Scotland. There were some good ports on the Clyde,
but none of these would supersede the port of Kirkcudbright
as the key to the south of Scotland. Girvaa would
not be preferred, for persons would never think of sending
their goods,:round by Ayr. He did not know that goods
were sent to the south of Scotland in greater increase
since the Lancaster and Carlisle Railway had been opened.
Return goods from Kirkcudbright would consist of woollen
goods manufactured in the district. The only parts which
had at present a communication with Ireland were Port Car-
lisle and Annan, and if the Kirkcudbright Branch were
opened he conceived that, instead of one steamer, they would
have three. If goods were to be sent from Kirkcudbright to
the centre or west of England, they would probably be trans-
mitted by the Caledonian to Carlisle, and thence by the
direct lines to the west and centre—that was, supposing the
rates alike; but, for the east of England, he thought they
would be sent by the Dumfries branch to Milton, and thence
on by the Newcastle and Carlisle. •
Captain Russell, harbour-master of the port of Belfast,
said that there was a very considerable import trade from
Newcastle to Belfast. The freight would be carried at 20s.
a ton. If this branch to Kirkcudbright were opened, he
thought that the southern trade would be exported from that
port, which would be preferredpay steamers on account of its
greater safety.
Cross-examined by Mr Sergeant MutirnT—He would
prefer Kirkcudbright as a sailing port before Annan.
By the CHAIRMAN—He would rather accept a ss. freight
from Kirkcudbright in preference to a 72. 6d. freight from
Annan.

By Mr. Sergeant Mummy—The distance from Belfast to
Girvan was, perhaps, 52 miles, and 4, Kirkcudbright about
70. There was a great choice of ports accessible at all times
on the coast of Ayr. He preferred Lock,Ryan to Kirkcud-
bright.
Mr. John Leathern, flax-spinner, Londonderry, said that
the population of that town was 20,000. It had a large and
increasing trade, and the exports and imports would be ex
tended by the formation of the railways which were now in
process. The exports from Derry in the last year were in
corn, 22,000 tons; flax, 4,000 tons ; eggs, 14,459 boxes ;
pigs, 16,379; butter, 75,000 casks. The trade of Belfast
was greater than that of Londonderry, but he did not think
that the exports were so great. They had a considerable
import trade. Newcastle sent them coal, coke, machinery,
glass, salt, soda, and other articles, and received in return
corn, provisions, and flax.
Mr. Sergeant MURPHY said that he was as muck interested
in the traffic as the other side was, and, therefore, he thought
it would be unfair to take up the time of the Committee by
cross-examining upon this point.
Sir THOMAS PHILLIPS said that, provided they were not
afterwards met by the other side with the argument, that
they had not shown an equal amount of traffic with theirs,
he would be quite willing to drop further examination on
this point.
The Committee suggested that he should confine himself
to a few agricultural witnesses.

Mr. Kennedy, of Kirkland, was called—He had property
in Roxburgh and Kirkcudbrightshires, and leased properties
in the counties of Dumfries, Kirkcudbright, Ross, Suther-
land, Argyle, and Inverness. He paid a rental
for these lands of some 6,0001. per annum ; he paid in addi-
tion for wintering stock 2,030!. He understood that the
extent of land leased by him was 200,000 acres, and that
his ordinary stock of sheep was 45,000. He was also a
cattle-dealer. He calculated that from the east of the water
of Urr there would be sent into England, of fat cattle 3,000;
half-fat, 16,000; fat sheep, 60,000; lambs, 30,000; store
sheep, 15,000. To this would be added, by the Kircudbright
branch, fat cattle, 2,000; half-fat, 18,000; fat sheep, 20,000;
store sheep, 20,000. He had framed these calculations on
very careful data, and he thought he was justified in think-
ing them correct.
Cross-examined by Mr. Sergeant MvarHY—At present
half-fat cattle were sent into England by Stanmora and
Arundel, and so on ; fat cattle were sent to Liverpool by sea,
and were shipped at the various ports on the coast. Four-
fifths of the Galloway breed of cattle were sent to the east of
England. The Northern Counties Union to Penrith would
answer for their store sheep and cattle, and the Lancaster and
Carlisle line to Northallerton (if short and cheap) would
afford them still further advantages.
Re examined by Sir 'l'. PHILLIPS—The line to Penrith
being only 18 miles long would not be of any very great ad-
vantage to them, and to avoid trouble they world rather go
at once upon the main line.

Sir THOMAS PHILLIPS was proceeding to call Mr. Hunter,
the second largest cattle-dealer in Scotland, to corroborate
the evidence of Mr. Kennedy, but the Committee intimated
that they were satisfied on this point, and would prefer hear-
ing evidence on the Canobie coal trade.
Mr. Wright, manager of the Duke of Buccleuch's mineral
fields, was intimately acquainted with the minerals of the
district. At present the districts of Galloway were only sup-
plied by coal from England, and the cost of Newcastle coals
at the different ports might be taken at 16s. Bd. per ton. By
the opening of the Canobie branch an abundant and cheap
supply could be procured. The length of the fields in the
upper series was three miles, and the coal was found in Silt
,earns of an aggregate depth of 35 feet 9 inches. The coal
was of a very good quality, being equal to West Cum-
berland. In the lower series there were four seams of an aggre-
gate depth of 19 feet 6 inches. The price at the pit's mouth
was ss. 10d. They ("Quid be delivered in Dumfries at about
Be. 6d., and in Kirkcudbright at something under 10s. Be-
yond the quantity used for district consumption, be calcu-
lated that a considerable quantity would be shipped at the
port of Kirkcudbright. The coal was adapted for coking,
and could be delivered at any of the stations of the Glasgow
and Ayr Company at 20s. per ton. The estimate of con-
sumption of coke by the lines connected with the Dumfries
Company,was 40,000 tons, and out of this quantity he thought
Canobie would supply one-third. Ile thought that the in •
terests of the Canobie field would be better cared for by the
Dumfries Company, because the Caledonian might rather
choose to encourage the coal which would come the longer
distance upon their line.
Cross-examined by Mt Sergeant Munrur —He had no
experience of railway management, further than that he had
frequently sent coals upon railways. He thought now as he
thought last year, that if the navigation were equal, and the
rates the same, Annan, as being the nearest port to the
Canobie district, would be preferred.
Re-examined by Sir THOMAS Pmuir—Kirkcudbright was
not contemplated last year as a shipping port.—(Laughter.)
Mr. Christie agreed in the evidence given by Mr. Wright,
of the minerals of Canobie, both as to their quality and
extent:

Mr. Fawcett, proprietor of certain coal-fields on the line of
the Lancaster and Carlisle Railway, said that considerable
quantities of coal would be transmitted along the proposed
Brampton line. '
Mr. Liddell, provision merchant, Brampton, proved the
preference given by the district to the scheme of the Dum-
fries and Carlisle Company over that of the Caledonian.
Cross-examined by Mr. Sergeant Mummy—He did not
know which of the schemes passed through the town of
Brampton.—( Laughter.)
Mr. Sergeant MunruY—Do you, in fact, know anything
at all about it ?—(Laugh ter.)
Witness—lf I knew I would tell you.—(Laughter.)
Mr. CARR put in papers, showing the amount of traffic,
&c., from Newcastle to Glasgow.
Mr. William Anderson had acquainted himself with the
extent of the trade by steam from Glasgow to Newcastle,
and it did not exceed 300 tons. The whole amount which
would be abstracted from the Caledonian Company by the
Dumfries Company would be 4,990 t. 75., or, deducting 45
per cent. for working expenses, 2,7741. 14s. The loss to
the Caledonian Railway on the Dumfries and Edinburgh
traffic would be as equal to 27 miles of their line, and to
compensate for that loss he brought upon their line at
Gretna a large amount of traffic, for which they took no
credit in the original prospectus.
Cross-examined by Mr. Sergeant MURPHY—He had heard
that this traffic was omitted in deference to !the opinions of
the Railway Commisrioners. He had heard that this formed
an element in Mr. Locke's design. He had, when examined
last year, mentioned only the port of Annan as a shipping
station fbr coals, because no other port then existed.
The Committee then adjourned till to-morrow, at twelve.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT
HOUSE OF LORDS, Aprd 27.
ROYAL COMMISSION.

The Royal assent was given, by Commission, to the
Fever (Ireland) Bill, and to a private Bill. The Com-
missioners were the Lord Chancellor, Marquis of Clan-
ricarde, and Earl of Minto.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool-
sack at Five o'clock.

APRIL 28, MIL_