The Sun.
London, England, 1840-07-25 00:00:00

brought before the House, he would state that there
were some parties, the authorities of the parish to whom,
in fact, the sum was due as being part of the Church-
rates of the parish, who might interfere to procure the
discharge of John Thorogood ; and for himself he
must say he thought they would act very wisely in re-
leasing him.—(" Hear, hear, hear," from the Ministe-
r:alists.) Those who agreed with him in that sentiment
would not, perhaps, agree with him in the grounds
upon which he came to that conclusion. He
) thought that a very long imprisonment of persons
who were actuated by conscientious feelings was of no
use toward maintaining respect for those laws. Ano-
ther ground upon which he thought it would be very
I expedient and perfectly safe to put an end to the im-
prisonment of John Thorogood was, that he consi-
dered that poor man, who no doubt was actuated by
very conscientious feelings, had been entirely mistaken
in the notion of the sympathy which his sufferings
would create. It was supposed that the result would
be that the Legislature would be obliged to put an
end to the system of Church-rates. It appeared to
him that the attempt to excite the sympathy of the
public had entirely failed. He believed that there
were a large portion of the people of this country at-
tached to the Established Church. There were many
also who desired that there should be no establish-
ment, but of these the number was small who
wished to see the Chureh-rates abolished by violence or
resistance to the law. If there were any parties to the
suit, as he believed there were, who had the power of
relieving a worthy and honest man from his imprison-
ment, he thought they would find it advantageous to
do so.
Sir E. SUGDEN believed the Bishop of London
had no power to release John Thorogood, and he was
also of opinion that the Crown had no power to order
his discharge, and therefore the motion must fall to the
ground. He had always objected to the system of a
lengthened period of imprisonment for contempt, and in
the Court of Chancery it had been entirely done away
with. Ho would suggest that a power be given to the
Bishop of London to adjudicate in cases like the pre-
sent, and he believed that would answer the object of
the Hon. Gentleman opposite. It appeared that John
Thorogood had of his own accord incurred the penalty
to which he was exposed ; but at the same time
it was not desirable, in his opinion, all things con-
sidered, that his imprisonment should be continued.
He thought, therefore, that any parties who might have
power of effecting his liberation should now use that

power, as it might be considered that the law had already
been sufficiently vindicated. If any one were to die
under the circumstances in which John Thorogood
was placed, he thought it would become a very serious
source of complaint against the law itself. He would
again press on the Noble Lord the advantages of
assimilating the law in cases of contempt in every
Court to the law as it existed in the Court of Chan-
cery. He would recommend the Noble Lord himself
to take the subject into his hands, and he would assure
him it would be well worthy of his consideration.
Mr. HUME said that it was very satisfactory to have
heard the speeches of the Noble Lord, and the Right
Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear, hear.) It was manifest
what the direction of their feelings was on the subject ;
and while they admitted that the individual had been
legally confined they did not approve of the manner in
which the law had been enforced on the occasion. He
did not know how his Hon. Friend could have obtained
an opinion more favourable to his views than he had
done ; and though he had first been desirous that his
Hon. Friend should have taken the sense of the House
on his motion. The liberal sentiments expressed by the
Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Gentleman had al-
tered his opinion, and he would therefore recommend a
different course to his Hon. Friend, from that which he
had at first wished he should pursue. It had been said
by some Hon. Members that the fate of John Thoro-
good had excited no sympathy throughout the country ;
but he could assure those gentlemen that they were al-
together mistaken, as was proved by the number of pe-
titions which had been presented on the subject. He
would conclude by expressing a hope that the Noble
Lord would adopt the recommendation of the Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir E. Sugden), and give to
all Courts the power of liberating parties imprisoned for
contempt.

Mr. G. VERNON defended the course taken by
the Consistorial Court. He would admit that Thoro-
good might be a conscientious man ; but he knew of a
parallel case in his neighbourhood, which led him to
think that the resistance of such persons had its origin
in a notion, that, by creating a great excitement, and
taking the matter into the courts, the demand for
Church-rates would become so odious, that it would be
abandoned. In his neighbourhood a man refused to
pay Ss. for that rate, and he (Mr. Vernon), believing
that the object of the refusal was to provoke what
might be looked upo❑ as persecution, and to make a
parade of martyrdom, paid the money. The conse-
quence was, that the individual alluded to had never
since made any difficulty about paying his rates.—
(Hear, hear.) In the case of Thorogood, the church-
warden bad not the power to liberate him ; but it was
in the power of his friends to do so, by taking the
course which he (Mr. Vernon) bad taken in the pa-
rallel case.

Mr. BAINES said that the Hon. Gentleman's view
of the case differed from that taken by Sir S. Lushing-
ton. The payment of the .ss. 6d. now would not libe-
rate John Thorogood : if it would, there are thou-
sands who would gladly pay it.—( Hear.) Indeed,
the Honourable Gentleman opposite, or any other
person, who had a regard for the character of the
Church would be glad to pay it. He (Mr. B.) was
glad to see that there was a disposition to put a❑ end to
these persecutions.—(Hear, hear.) Did not the Hon.
Gentleman know that a great many Quakers had been
liberated in that county who stood in the same situation
as Thorogood did ? It had been said that it
,was only
the Dissenters who had contributed to the funds that
had been raised for Mr. Thorogood. Now, the fact
was, that many Churchmen had subscribed to that
fund, feeling strongly for his persecution. He (Mr.
Baines) was astonished that the imprisonment of Mr.
Thorogood had not been put an end to long ago. He
had shown the spirit of a martyr on the subject, and
he had no doubt, whatever course was pursued towards
him, if he was liberated, it must be by the interposition
of others, who were anxious to put an end to his sutler•
ings, and not by his giving way in the course be had
pursued. He believed that the sooner Mr. Thorogood
was liberated the better it would be for the Church.—
( Hear, hear.) It remained for his Friend the Member

for Finsbury to say whether he would take the sense of
the House upon the subject ; but if he would allow
him to give his advice, he would recommend him to
withdraw his motion for the present, after what had
taken place. The motion asked the Crown to do that
which it had no power to do, namely, to violate the law
of the land.—(Hear.)
Sir ROBERT PEEL could not participate in the
hope expressed by the Hon. Member for Leeds (Mr.
B lines) that there would be an end of imprisonment for
refusal to pay Church-rates on the ground of con-
science.
It was impossible to distinguish whether
such refusals arose from mere contumacy or conscience,
and as it was also impossible to dive into the heart of
man it was necessary to visit him who refused to obey
the law, whether his disobedience arose from contumacy
or conscience, with the penalties of the law.—(Hear.)
If he (Sir R. Peel) purchased property in Scotland he
would be called upon to contribute towards the main-
t, trance of a Church from which he dissented, and it
would be extraordinary if he refused to do so, knowing,
as he did, when he purchased the property, that among
other charges upon it there was the charge of Church-
, rates. -(Hear.) If men were allowed to disobey the
law upon the allegation that their consciences compelled
them to do so, there would be a dissolution of the bonds
of society.—(Hear, hear.) He would, however, state
that while he gave that opinion upon the general prin-
ciple, yet it would give him great satisfaction to hear of
the discharge of John Thorogood.—( Hear, bear.) The
imprisonment which that individual had suffered was
sufficient for the vindication of the law, and he thought
the general interest of the Church would he promoted
if he was discharged without being asked to make any
concession of principle.—(Hear, hear.) But although
he hoped that some means would be taken to terminate
the imprisonment of John Thorogood without any con-
cession being required of him which he could not make,
yet he was anxious to take the opportunity of stating,
that if the same case arose again, of a refusal to pay
Church-rates, whether that refusal arose from contu-
macy or conscience, he saw no alternative but that of
enforcing the law, and subjecting the second John Tho-
rogood to the same punishment.—(Cheers.)
Mr. AGLIONBY hoped that some means would
be adopted, by which, without any further proceedings
in the Legislature, John Thorogood would be free
from imprisonment. John Thorogood must be libe-
rated under any circumstances, and if his release could
not be effected by any other means, he hoped an Act
of Parliament would be brought in for that purpose.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said that after the kind
sympathy which the House had expressed for the un-
fortunate object of his motion, he thought he should
best consult his interest by not pressing the motion to
a division.—(Hear hear.) He would, therefore, ask
the permission of the House to withdraw it.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL had no objection to that
particular motion being withdrawn, but if the several
motions on the paper were brought on one after another
and withdrawn, the House would not get into a Com•
mittee of supply that night.—( Hear, hear, and laugh-
ter.) He, therefore, hoped if that motion was allowed
to be withdrawn, no advantage would be taken of the
Government.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
; The motion was then withdrawn.
FEARGUS O'CONNOR.
Mr. AGLIONBY postponed his motion relative to
the petition of Feargus O'Connor until the first ways
and means day next week.
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS.

Mr. HUME would not detain the House two mi-
nutes.--( Hear, hear.) He merely wished to call the
attention of the House to the state of the Public Ac-
counts, and to the necessity of having them kept in all
the public departments, on the plan alreadv'adopted in
the Admiralty and Navy Pay Offices. He hoped the

Chancellor of the Exchequer would, during the recess,
endeavour, if possible, to carry out in every department
that whi,2ll had been carried out in the Navy, Admi-
ralty, and Pay-offices, for at present great inconvenience
arose in consequence of the acc,uuts not being kept
upon an uniform system.
1 DR. NPGILL.

Mr. GOULBU RN had looked into the case of Dr.
M'Gill since he mentioned it at an earlier period of
the evening, arid was satisfied there was no pretence
for withholding the salary.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER re-
peated that the Government had merely acted on the
faith of the declaration they made during the discussion,
and he mentioned it was not their intention to con-
tinue the salary, should the office become vacant.
SUPPLY.

The House then resolved itself into a Committee of
Supply.
On the motion that an additional 2,000 men be raised
for sea service for ten months.

Mr. HUME said he had before stated his objec-
tion to an increased amount of estimates. He had not
heard any reason why the estimates should be so largely
increased. They had gone on gradually increasing the
number of their seamen till in the year 1839 they had
amounted to 34,000 ; in 1840 they amounted to
35,000, and now they were called upon to vote 37,000
men. He objected to that increase, because the
British ❑avy was not applied to legitimate British
purposes. They had sent a large fleet to the coast of
Syria for the purpose of encouraging and fomenting the
insurreetion in that country. He believed the best
alliance they could form would be an alliance
with the Constitutional Government of France,
and he believed the alliance they had most to dread
was an alliance with Russia, and yet he had seen
with the greatest regret that the Noble Lord at the
head of the Foreign Department had encouraged that
Government in its despotic proceedings. He had from
time to time waited in the hope that returning commo❑
sense would have induced her Majesty's Government
to give up that policy. The Noble Lord's erroneous
policy had added two millions to the taxes within the
last year. It had been stated that British agency
had been employed to foment the insurrection in Syria,
and it had been further alleged that England, in con-
cert with Russia and Austria, and to the exclusion of
France, had entered into a treaty to compel Mehemet
Ali to come to terms, and deliver up the fleet. Now
he thought nothing ,would more tend to promote the
ambitious views of Russia than such a course of policy,
and he trusted they would hear from the Noble Lord
(Palmerston) an assurance that such was not the case.
He should certainly oppose an additional grant to the
navy, until they had some explanation on the subject.
Lord PALMERSTON said nothing could be more
frank and straightforward than the conduct of the Hon.
Member, for he had told him, both publicly and pri-
vately, for many months past, that the views he (Lord
Palmerston) entertained were injurious to British inte-
rests, and had laboured to impress upo❑ him totally
different views. Now, with respect to the views enter-
tained by the Hon. Member, he must say that they
were precisely those which were calculated to promote
the views of Russia (if indeed she entertained those
selfish and ambitious views ascribed to her), and were
those which she would be most anxious to dictate to
any party. That course would place the Turkish em-
pire in such a state of danger, that she would be obliged
to throw herself upon Russia for support. Such a
course would certainly tend more to sacrifice British in-
terests, and endanger the peace of Europe, than any-
thing he (Lord Palmerston) meditated. He must pro-
test against the opinions of his Hon. Friend, as being
totally opposed to the best interests of the coun-
try ; and he trusted they were not entertained by
any parties who were able to carry them into execu-
tion. With respect to his foreign policy having
added two millions to the taxes of the country, he would
remind the Hen. Member that his own favourite mea-
sure of the reduction of the rate of postage and the
state of the Canadas—(Hear, hear)—had contributed
very materially to that increase. He believed the
portion which could be laid to the charge of the navy
was very small indeed ; the increase in that department
arising principally from the necessity of laying in stores
and placing the ordinary in an efficient state. With
regard to the negotiations then pending between the
great Powers of Europe, it would be exceedingly incon-
venient, and a very unprecedented course, to enter into
any detail of them, and it would be seriously detrimen-
tal to the objects they had in view. When the nego-
tiations arrived at a fitting point he should not shrink
from submitting them to the examination of Parliament,
and he would convince his Hon. Friend that the anti-
English feeling and objects which it was supposed he
(Lord Palmerston) had in view had no existence what-
ever. With regard to Syria, British agency had no-
thing whatever to do with the recent insurrection there.
It was entirely owing to the resistance which even the
most oppressed were driven to oppose to tyranny,
which had become absolutely intolerable.—(Hear.)
He put it to the House whether, in the present state
of the important, delicate, and complicated questions
which were under discussion by the Five Powers, the
questions of the Hon. Member were such as ought to
be answered. Although the Five Powers were agreed
upo❑ the main points, and although France had de-
clared her determination to maintain the integrity and
independence of the Turkish empire, yet they differed
on many minor points. Unless the House wished him,
he should certainly decline, at the present stage of
the negotiations, to enter into any details upon the
subject.

Slr. MILNE regretted that the Noble Lord had
not given a more satisfactory answer to the somewhat
irregular questions of the Hun. Member for Kilkenny.
He wished the House had been assured that England
was acting in concert with the Five Powers, as mach
interest was excited on that point. He would support
the vote, as he believed the exigencies of the country
required the additional men.
Mr. HUME was by no means satisfied with
the explanation, and would divide the House if there
were a sufficient number of Members present.—(A laugh.)
He denied that the necessity for any increased vote
arose from the change in the Post-office regulations,
for, notwithstanding that change, an increase in the
revenue bad taken place. Ho did not put the whole
down to the account of the navy. He knew the great
expense which Canada had caused. He had foretold
this before the Government had adopted the revolu•
tionary measures which they had thought proper to
adopt toward 3 that country. The necessity, therefore,
arose not from any deficiency in the Post-office, but from
the increase in the establishments. As the Noble Lord
had not denied that a convention had bee❑ entered into
with the other Powers, leaving out the French, he took
it for granted that such was the case, and deeply did
he regret it. The Noble Lord should well consider be-
fore venturing on the adoption of any steps calculated
to lessen the terms of amity between this country and
France. Egypt had had possession of Syria for eight
years, and, therefore, he thought he was entitled
to say that the Syrians were at present in a
state of insurrection. He had seen the British
Government charged with inciting the insurrection ;
he had seen the fact mentioned in the Morning Post—
(A laugh). No matter where it was, it was so asserted,
and he was glad to bear it contradicted, because, if such
had been the case, he should have considered it disgrace-
ful to the British Government.

Lord J. RUSSELL would not go at any length into
the discussion, and in the few words which he was
about to address to the House, his Hon. Friend had the
advantage of him, for he had not, like his Hon. Friend,
read the Morning Post.—(A laugh.) With regard to
the general question of the policy in the East, he could
only repeat what he had said at the beginning of the
session. His Hon. Friend had said that this country had
had nothing to do but to allow amicable relations to
have been established between the two portions of the
Turkish empire, and that it was only owing to our in-
terference that such an amicable settlement had been
prevented. Now, so far was this from being the
case, that the real fact was, that a vassal of great strength
and power was attempting to impose terms on his
Sovereign, and expecting to get those terms through the
weakness of that Sovereign. Now what would have
been the result if the Five Powers had not interfered ?
The result would undoubtedly have been, what it had
been before, that the Sultan would have owed his safety
solely to the power of Russia ; that, consequently, the
influence of Russia at Constantinople would have been
so great as to excite the jealousy of the other Powers,
and the general peace could not have been preserved.
His Hon. Friend was mistaken in his views on this
subject, and he was also mistaken as to the manner in
which our interference had commenced. Its first com-
mencement was by the collective note of the Five
Powers, and by the request to the Sultan not to adopt
any measures, except in conformity with the wishes of
those Powers. His Hon. Friend had referred to
France, and as his Noble Friend had said, no doubt
having the same object in view as the other
Powers—( Hear)—there had been some little difference
of opinion as to the means by which that object could be
attained. But he spoke the sentiments of his Hon.
Friend and of the whole Government when he said that
they set as high a value as the Hon. Gentleman or any
other man could possibly do on the keeping up of our
amicable relations with France—Cheers)—which he
trusted would long endure.—(Loud cheers.) There was
no nation with whom it was more essentially necessary
that we should cultivate amicable relations than with
France—(Cheers)—and there was no nation with which
it was more the interest of France to preserve amicable
relations than with ourselves, and it was for the advan-
tage of the two nations that they should indulge in no
rivalry except the peaceful rivalry of commerce. The
Honourable Member had stated that it was owing to
British interference that the insurrection had taken
ianss theu rre
cHt oo nn H.
in Sy
se nytrlieam a n
everyh a d
yseaai dr
ct to the Porte,
rte, and that there
btriphal pld
ace
et thereinnbadS 7had
threebae.
ebinneseNsunuorbarwjen:ctions in Syria while it had been
subject to Mehemet Ali, it would not, he thought, re-
quire a great deal of British or any other interference to
get up an insurrection in such a country, of which, ac-
cording to the Hon. Gentleman, insurrection appeared
to be the ordinary state. The fact was, he believed, j
that Mehemet Ali had inflicted grievous oppression on