The Sun.
London, England, 1812-06-09 00:00:00

FORMATION OF A MINISTRY.

Earl STAICHeru said, there vas a subject which
~tow, above all Others, agitated the public mind,•
and respecting which, necessarily, the greatest
"flxicty- prevailed : he meant the question of an
tql;cient Administration for the government of the
country. He knew tall •no discussion could re-
gularly be entered into without there wai a mo-
tion before the House. He would, therefore,.
make one, which would tend to introduce that
Most imp-Iriant subject,, if ItlY bodywas inclined
to discuss it. Ile 'had 'another reason for ,thus
coining forward, that of giving their Lordships an
°Pportunity of doing a real act of justice—there
I%'a, a most unjust and oppressive measure in its
op,Tess through that Huse, He alluded. to the
InCloSitrc Bill, of which his Lmiship cen-
81lred the leadirig provisions. TU farther consi-
deration of this Bill stood for to-morrow, which,
24 the present state of things, could not be a pto-
day He would, therefore, move, That the
"ler reTectinB this Bill for to-morrow be dis-
-I)argeci, with 4 view to adjourning it till this day
t

LoidViscount BULIELEY expressed his disap-
Probation of such a proceeding, and adverted to
the great expence the parties were already put to, -
in consequence of the postponements which had
taken place. He *trusted -their Lordships would
not agree to discharge the order ; and that to-
blorrow ample reasons would be adduced in favour
of their passing the Bill.
Lag STANHOPE explained, and having moved
tc) the above effect, the question was put, and
the E e•Noble division
motion was negatived without a
The Earl of Livtaroor..—" My Lords, before
move the question of adjournment, I think it
,
'IY duty to iL-lorin the House, that in consuptence
`ll the Address voted on a former day, by the
the. Houseof Parliament, and also to state, in
r erenee to a question 'put to me by a Noble
1,41te, that his Rdyal IliOntess the Prince Regent
Commissioner
been pleased, this day, to appoint me First
itanlmissioaer of the Treasury ;. and that his
tt`ii Yal Highness has given directions that the
)11 Ler arrangements for his Majesty's Govern-
eutsball be made without the least unfiecesPary
2; The Earl of MOIRA- said, that upon the °eel-
of the last negociation, as he had the hollow'
of stating to their Lordships, he undertaken
at the pleasure of his Royal Highness the Prince
egent, and he considered it in the present state
1)
f. tia
„ e country as a most important duty and trust
Lachng upon him. He was fully (aware that in
-11 .t°, period, the task- of selecting men of ability and
C,eat for the offices of an Adaainistration, could
in this country one of -"Much diiffeulty-the
unbers which- were so endowed rendered the
I:iee easy ; but, ia. the present Mate of things,
felt that it behoved him to beware, that in the
should
of a Klallstry no grounds for suspicion
exist, that there. was ady. deviation from
dose
great political principles which were to form
tttie grand basis of'the negociatioa. With a due
itir'se of how incumbent this•princlple was upon
triairt, he had proceeded to form Cabinet, which
4,,eavoor, unfortunate)y, (lid notsucceed. He
el,iented thjs, for the sake of the country, -be-
atsuch -a moment as present, he Celt it
the e of peculiar. importance that those who had
e4;l-niallagement of public affairs shenld Itavethe
44`rive confidence the nation. In this pro'2e-
tie had
he felt it justice to say,-that in every quarter
tad met with the most perfect frankness -and
(.begged leave to rbturn his thauks'to hiS Noble
;Aends, fin' the candour and kbilties-S Which -they
.(herithout exception, -had honoured him -a ith.
leav was another ground on which, he begged
nave to tolich--hecause, he could nottestify
szet7+elY, that his Royal Highness the Prince Re-
for',.`; in the powers Which he had vested in him
he Purpose,4la.(l evinced-his sincere
fit 9, and he had . exerted himself to the utmost,
out reservation, and with the'mnst complete
41Position to satisfy_ the wishes of the Public.
%110 that could now certainly be -expected, and he
hu.ld feel it a puhlic duty to give every support
Power to any body of men to whom the-
nce; nee Regent should give his contidence—rhear,
grer P ; that may not be inconsistent with those
‘eitai` Political principles which he had so often
- and asserted in that House, and which should
',PIC rule of his public conduct through rife.
the, Duke of NORFOLK observed, the Noble
iaf..t, had thought proper to allude to the Address
kiti",te other House, which contemplated the ap-
tht iment of a ~more efficient Administration for
houreountry than that of which the Noble Earl
a,- avowed himself to be the head. When,
14ver, he had put the question to him on a
evening, he said he considered hithself as
114 11ger holding his office, than until such time
hittl7e Prince Regent should appoint an Admini-
ht L.,,ation for his Majesty's Government. This,
tyt"tieved, was shortly after a late melancholy
tlielLt, that such an intention was signified. In
th!ituation in which the country now stood, he
ketigght it was necessary the intention of Govern-
with respect to certain ,great measures,
aticulo be known and it was of thelastimport-
*a that Government should decide, in a certain
'a
with respect to thole measures. This, - he.

wai 3 painful regret, Ana one which.
tated the .6ole public mind. One of these mea-
sures required not a moment's delay with respect
to the decikon of Government upon it. He meant
that which involved the question of a war with.
America, and which, perhaps, the difference of a
day may put beyond the power of recall.- hi this
view he would put it to the Noble Earl, whether
it were meant to rescind the Orders in Council as
speedily as convenient, and as events may call for
such a measure ? °

The Earl of LIVERPOOL expressed his opinion,
that, with respect to the way in which he had re-
ferred to a proceeding in another place, the. Noble
Duke was mistaken. What was the proceeding in
another place ? An Address of the Commons, that
his Royal ,Highness the Prince Regent would take
steps for the formation of -a strong and extended 1
Administration. Undoubtedly, in consequence.of
this proceeding, he and ,his colleagues felt it their
duty to state to his Royal Highness their desire of
being no bar in the way of any arrangement which
the Prince. Regent might think neeesSary, under
the circumstances of the. country; for the forming .
what might be consid&ed as a strong and extend-
ed, AdmmistratiOn. He trusted their Lordships
would do him the justice to feel, that from that
moment to the present he was anxious they should
be no obstacle to any arrangement which -woOld
be satisfactory to the Prince and beneficial to the
country. The circumstances that. may have led to
the determination of any discussion, were not such
as be felt himself at present called upon to. detail;
but he certainly should think,- after all that had
passed, and under all the circumstances of the
case, that he should have shrunk • from the duty
which he owed to the Prince Regent and to the
country,- if he had declined accepting the office •
which his Royal Highness that day was
_pleased to
confer ,on him. With regard to the question of
the actual relations between this ' country and
America, thert was some late information of cer-
tain farther instances, which may be considered
as of a hostile character, adopted by the Legis-
lative Assemblies of that country. But the Noble
Duke was certainly mistaken if he supposed from
these reports that actual. hostilities -had taken
place, at least no information of that. kind had
reached GOvernment. Upon the subject of the
Orders in Council, the Noble Duke would recol-
lect there was now an inquiry depending before
the House, and which inquiry was for some time
in its progress, and now, he believed, near its ter-
mination. Upon the result of that inquiry, and
upon a full view of the body of evidence that shall
then be before the House, it would be seen what
it was the duty of Government to do, as well with
reference to the interests of those Powers who
were concerned in the effects of those measures, a's
upon the part of this country.
The Duke of NORFOLK said a few words in, ex,
planation.
The Marquis WELLESLEY said, that on the pre-
sent occasion, he was induced chiefly to rise; with
reference to what be understood was said respect-
ing some words which had fallen from hum on the
day oa which he found it his duty to resign into
the hands of his Royal Highness the Prince Ra-
gent the commission with which he was pleased
to honour him, for an object which it was agreed
upon all hands to he highly desirable, and with a
view of carrying into effect the resolution of the
other House of Parliament. On that day, he. •
gave his sincere, opinion, that it was preferable
rio discussion daring the course of the execution •
of the commission should' take place ; and he re-
mained of this opinion to a,later period of it.'
He therefore did not deem it proper to attend on'
the day the topic was last referred to. He, now
appeared before their Lordships with the same,
permission and authority from his Royal Highness
the Prince Regent to state on this day, and he
was now ready to state-point after point, and even
to enter into the,most minute details of ail that
pasaed‘during* the execution of that mission. In
those details, he had no hesitation' in saying; that
every effort was employed to give it due effect, -,
except on the part of a Noble Lordi whom he. I
would still call his Friend (looking. earnestly at. • I
the Ministerial Bench)*. This, for the special pur-
pose, he was ready to state He did not mean,
however, to ch age • it as a crime, but merely to
state the fact, that the only obstacle that occur-
rel to his progress in forming, an efficient Govern-
ment, 'had ocettrredaperhops, with no evil iuten-
tioii, but it had occurred on that side. He thought
it necessary, .in his-own vindication, to say thus.;
much at least,-and he would ask, before that House I
and the country, in justice to himself, whether; on
the day he had resigned.his commission into the
hands of the ,Prince Regent, he did: not. ina,,,t ear- I
nestly recommend to. his Royal Highness to: open
again an explanation with those Noble Lords, in
the manner in which a .Noble Earl since opened
it ?. The grounds. upon which he had advised the •
format ion of a Government. were those which he
thought the - situation and circumstances of the
country prescribed. Ile. was convinced that no
Administration could be adequate that '\vas not
founded upon principles consonant to the internal
peace of the country; with reference principally
to-a speedy consideration, of the claims of the Ro-
mao Catholics. Next, that none could be effi-
cient, without an arrangement for carrying on the
war in the Peninsula on a scale of adequate vi-
gour ; and thirdly, on a statement of his opinion,
that in the. constituent state of parties, the, adop-
tion of any one party or its opinions as the policy
of Government, or the strength bf any one
party as the policy of Government,, was not a 1
principle which could carry the country through HI
the. arduous and eventful contest in which it was
engaged.
The Earl of Haastoway expressed his opinion,
that in the present circumstances any detailed dis-
cussion of the subject should be postponed to a
future day. The assertion of the Noble Marquis
he felt it incumbent on him, however, immediate-
ly to notice : he had advanced a charge of a seri-
ous nature, unaccompanied by a shadow of proof.
Their-Lordships certainly should be told in what
manner these alleged obstacles, were opposed, and
how, and when, and why. It alleged that all the
facilities towards forming an Administration came
from Noble Lords on the other side, while repul-
sion was experienced from his (Lord H.) side. It
was said that dreadful personal animosities existed.
The Noble Marquis should say, whether these
words had. been loosely thrown ordain ;be. course

'of speech, or whether they-.were seriously in-
t tended. The Noble Marquis was therefore called
upon to state the accusation clearly and directly,
in order to afford those to whom it may 'apply an
opportunity of controverting it.
The -Marquis IiTtLLESLEY, after Slightly ad-
verting' to the tone which he conceived the Noble
Earl to.assume, said that nothing that fell from
him (Lord W.) had tended to shew he Was not
confident of what he had advanced. He had,
however, alleged no evil intention, or any wish on
the part of the Noble Lord to thwart the forma—
tion of an efficient Government, but simply, as he
said, the fact that the only obstacle which had
occurred in the negotiation, had occurred oh the
part of those Noble Lords. The Noble Earl pos-
sibly spoke with reference to the explanation
given by a Noble Friend (Lord Boringdon) re-
specting the words " dreadful personal animosi-
ties," in his absence.. The Noble Earl should
recollect, that his Noble Friend said he had no
authority from him to make such explanation.—
He was then called.upon to say whether he had
not used these words incidentally, and therefore
as not entitled to that sort of importance which
would otherwise attach ? But he was sure .his
Nohle-Friend •was much too accurate to have said
he used them incidentally: The fact was, be had
endeavoured to dissuade their Lordships from any
discussion on that day; but at the same time, he
now declared most solemnly, that he had used the
wordS quite advisedly, and as stating a positive
fact; and this he stated to their Lordships upon
his word of honour. This, howeVer, the Noble
Earl, and other Lords, were pleased to disclaim
in distinct terms; and all he could say as to that
particular point svas,= according to Parliamentary
usage, as such were earnestly disclaimed, that he
•must, have been mistaken. Feeling .himself so
called upon, however, he would state why be
thought that these obstacles proceeded . from that
side Of the House, and. why he thought them to be
grounded upon personal animosity.
,In proceed-
ing to the execution of his important commission,
he thought an attempt should be first- made to as-
certain the sentiments, with aview to agreementr..
of the, different individuals, as to -certain great
'.leading principles, which, be thought should con-
stitute the 'basis of an efficient Administration:
These points were referred by himself to his Noble
Friends near him, and by an \Honourable Friend
to the Noble Lords opposite, For that sincere
construction he had put upon the answer be .re-
ceived front the Noble Lords, he would' refer the
House to the document itself, whence their Lord-
ihips would judge whether he had deserved the
rebuke of the Noble Earl. [His Lordship here
referred to certain documents published relative. to
the transactions in question, and already before '
our readers, illustrative of the inference and con-
/struction he had put upon the language, and read
a few extracts, and concluded with one where the
Noble subscribers say, for the reasons stated, that
".they decline becoming Members of any Admini-
stration to be formed by Lord Wellesley."] After
this, where a decided objection was offered to the
joining any Administration formed by Lord Wel-
lesley, he thought further illustration would be
unnecessary ; yet he could on the same grotmd,
refer to the reply of the Noble Earl, wherein he
expressed his wish not to enter into further dis-
cussion of matters relating to " personal feeling."
He meant not to give an opinion as to personal
feeling, but be contended, that the fact was ex..-
actly as he, had stated it, namely, that he had
found obstacles in that quarter, and that these ob-
stacles appeared to him to arise from personal ani-
mosity. If the Noble Earl disdained this feeling,
God forbid he ShOuld continue to attribute it to
him; but after what he had stated, he thought it
might appear. to their Lordships he did not deserte
the severe rebuke of the Noble Earl'; and if he
*ere called upon. to state any where that which
may be stated in that House, pe:haps he would
be found ready to do it.
The Earl of lIARROWBY, in reply; observed up-
on the seriousness of the charge conveyed by the
language used by the Noble Marquis, more espe-
cially in the preSent state of the country : inas-
much as that any Noble Lord could be induced,
from motives of personal animosity, to do
'that which would tend to keep the country
without an .efficient Administration. And even on
the grounds stated by the Noble Marquis, he was
Still at a loss to learn why a refusal to join in any
particular Adininistration should proceed from mo-
. tives of personal animosity. It should be recol-
lected,...that the offers were made with the concur-
rence of every Mtinber of that Cabinet, which,
joined to the • part taken by his Noble Friend,
shewed he could not be influenced by personal
animosity. The Noble Marquis had referred to
some details in the correspondence that took place;
if he had thought it directly necessary; for his
cwn honour, that such a publication should have,
been made—certainly the same publicity should
attend every circumstance of the transactions.. A.
paper, called," A Statement," had been publish-
in- some shape or other previous to thetime. when
the first proposal was made to the Noble Lord:—
This proceeding, his 'Lordship seemed to think,
made aanaterial featurein the case, and fully jus-
tified, nay eVen , called for, the' language held.by
~his Noble Friend, and yet he might not be actu-
ated by motives of,personal animosity. When a
nnblication'was considered, -in which he and all
his colleagues were, proclaimed to .the world
as totally shqicient in knowledge or capacity
for , the formation of any plan whatever
When such statements as these could find their
- way to the public unknown to any of his NOble
Friends, surely it would . not be. without its
corresponding effect on the minds and feelings
of those who were so characterised. The opinion
was such as one was at Jiberty to entertain ; but
the manner and the timeoemaking the avowal and
the allegations were such as• deserved serious and
feeling consideration. Did it not also involve
feelings of a very different nature ? could it operate
alas- thing like conciliation ? The individual, too
so characterized in the publication, he whom they
were all proud to state, they considered as the
life and soul 9f the Administration. , The time too,
and at the very, same moment when, but just re-
covering from those feelings with which they had
followed his hearse ! Under all these circum-
stances, lie could not think that any part of the
conduct or language of his Noble'Friends deserv-
ed to be characterised as proceeding from perso.

iial anifnoSity. These were times in Which all
I personal feeling should .)e sa rificed at the shrine.
Of public duty, and in sappoi.ting those Mi
whom his Royal Hig'lness selected for the ad:-
ministration of his Government in this perilous
crisis, he felt conscious that he was discharging
his duty. -
The Marquis WELLESLEY contended for that
correctness of the construction he had pit, upon
the conduct and language of the Noble Lords
this was not the proper period for entering into.
a minute analysis of all that had been referred to by
the Noble Earl, and which could be done for the
purpose of spewing even from bis own mouth,
that there was something like diSlike, or distaste
at least, if it went not to the full extent of per-
sonal animosity. He was anxious to defend him.:
self from thoseimputations meant to ,be cast upon
him, with respect to ine publication of the paper
alluded to, by the friends of that very respectable
person, whose official character was adverted to in
it. If he were capable of countenancing the pub-
lication of that paper, as the Noble Earl had pre.;.
somed, (for he would use that word), but he must
at once, in justice to himself, positively deny the
fact of his having countenanced it.—The Noble
Marquis then stated a variety of circumstaucesre-
specting the resignation of his official situation as
a Minister to his Royal Highness; for the col.. •
rectness of which, he appealed to a Noble Liord
present ;_ and proceeded to state, that the publica-
tion of the paper alluded to, took place without his
knowledge or consent : though some of his friends
had wished for the publication of it, he always re-
fused their intreaties, as a paper, of that descrip-
tion was neverintended by him for publication, and
he must protest against any argument being drawn .
therefrom of his entertaining any personal animosi-
ty, unless theNobleßarl meant to insinuate he was
a party to its publiclition. The Noble Marquis elo-
quently eulogised the public and private virtues as
well as the official talents of the late lamented
Premier ; though he said he did not deem him pos.-
sessed of those peculiar, qualifications, or that ex-
pansion of mind, so necessary for the the sepreine
direction of arduous' pubic affairs. It was no
proof of his animosity against any man to say that
he was unfit for the supreme directions of the af-
fairs of an empire. If so, he must be deemed
hostile to many whose talents he admired,
and whose virtues he respected. lie re-
garded the circumstance of that Minister's
death as a great public misfortune, the cif--;
cmnstances of which cast the ,lustre of martyr-
dom around his character. Notwithstanding he-
had so expressed himself of this great and respect-'
able character, he must protest against the idea
of, his feeling aught like animosity—if so he must
be pupposed to be very unlike the late well known
Counsellor Lee, who was never supposed to be in
earnest, until he had endeavoured to throw an
inkstand at his opponent ! The Noble Marquis
then 'made a variety of observations respecting the,
correspondence which took place . between a.
Noble Earl (Liverpool) particularly, and himself, ,
relative to the late Ministerial negociations, with
a view to justify his conduct thereon, and partieu-.
larly with respect to the publication of those do-
cuments. He. apologized for detaining their
Lordships upon pointa comparatively of trivial
consideration ; and concluded •by averring, that
whatever obstacles he experienced in the negocia-
tions in question, were entirely from Noble Lords
on the other side of the House.

The Earl of HARROWBY in explanation, said,
the Noble Marquis had relieved hiS mind from a
most unpleasant sensation by his exculpating
himself from any knowledge or participation in the
publication of the paper alliuled to.
After a few words in further explanation from
the Noble Marquis,
Earl Gat was of opinion, that the explaria,
tions given by the Noble Marquis ten led to esta-
blish his own honour and. the correctness of his
statement of what be had advanced respecting the
Noble Lords opposite, of Which, if he had any
doubt, what fell from the Noble Earl (Harrowby)
Would have convinced him. An imputation of
perrional animosity must always be unpleasant,
and he was happy that the explanation of his No-
ble Friend as to the publication of the paper al-
laded to had relieved the mind of the Noble Earl •
on that score. One point which had fallen from
that Noble Earl, only induced him to rise; viz. -
in consequence 'of the Address of the other HouSta
of Parliament, they thought it necessary to re-
sign their situations—had they not done so,. the
precedent would have been of a most dangerous
tendency ; but:. it appeared they thoughtit equals
ly their duty to resume those situations, and once
more to vest them in the . hands of those with
vvhoin the Country was evidently dissatisfied !
He trusted the time would come, when this sub-
ject could be fully and adequately discussed, a
time when be could be enabled fully to explain
the, grounds of his conduct. He would then re-
fer to those attempts which had been made to in-
troduce himself and his :Noble Friends into c. •
flee, upon terms amounting to a sacrifice of those
.principle• on which they had always acted. He
would then state the grounds of theirjustifieation
for not interfering in the Government at 41, un-
lessthey *were permitted to undertake it, by car-
rying into elfect those measures which they had
pledged themselves to the public to adopt. .Ills
public life *as before the country, and if he was
called to its service, consistently with those prin-
ciples, he would zealously endeavour to promote
its best interests, but upon no other terms. He
fully felt for the noble and patriotic motives by
which a Noble Earl was actuated, but he seemed
not aware of that secret management, which per=
. vaded the whole of those transactions, and which
alone, Ite.believed; prevented ere now the forma-
tion of such a Government as the country requir,
ed and expected.
The Earl.of MotaA saitls that an allusidn which
fell from his Noble Friend seemed to bear upon
him, and as such he thought called for explanation:
A general statement of confidence in his honour wai
not sufficient; nor did he desire a compliment to his
heart at the expence of his understanding. He
would not have undertaken the negociation at all,
hitt(' there been the least partiCle of restriction, on
the authority with which he had been vested, and
he would appeal to their Lordships, if from their
knowledge of the degree of confidence With
whichhe was - honoured by the Illustrious Per.
son who now presided. over the State, they

could Ruppose_it
_to :be otherwise Jie ;fished
64! N 11..ar1 distinctly to state
_the point to
which he alluded, :rid if he possessed any proofs,
tc brinc),--thern fortarl ; a shadow of proof, he
ivas confident he could not. He was also happy
at th;ll:ing a regular opportunity for a full and
ample di,scuion of the subject would be a-trarded,
when it. would i)e seen that he had discharged his
(try with a proud sense of what his country de-
mazided.. .

. . _
E GiIEY, in explanation; denied that he had
uttered any sOtifilent at alt approximating to any
thing like a persOnal reflection upon his Noble'
Friend. Whatever degree of error Mal- have been
in his con:ict, it could net Tyroceed from aught
tiya mad cast the least upon his per-
sOnal character 3 and this 11,=± fc,or.,ght Would am-
ply •,:i.pp,:ar, by the iricontrovertibe statenients of
the Noble Marquis Earl con-.
chphd, by referring to soaie explanation•ivhich
bad been. given on a former evening, as to certain
larts of the transactions, a view to the
ftilLand honourable exculpation of hii'-Noble
Ff i end. •

,
• The Earl of MotRA expressed himself perfectly
satisied at the explanation of his Noble Friend
(Es;irl Grey). Their I.:girdships, he obse-nied,wOuld
s& the impropriety of at preLient entering into the
details of the Subject, He would only say, he
should hold.himself. criminal if he had compro--
irised his own principles, Or 'stvered
,froni the
dictates of his public duty,, in Complin;ent to the
feelings of any indiiiduat whatever, though he
stood ii the situation of •firSt Magistrate of the
Sfate. The details of the transactions in que§'-
tibn, and the net ssary documents should go
for'6h to the public; and when the proper inform-
t:an WP.3 before the House and':the Country, the
merits of the case, on a full and ample discussion,
Nvold he known, and nbt before." . _ . •

Lord GRENVILLE expressed himself shortly to
a simihir effect with his Noble Friend (Earl Grey)
and seemed to deprecate any further discussion
uriathe neces-,ary documents should be before the
Irous6, and e):pressed his satisfaction at the pro-
spect of a full ample investigation of the sub-
jt( t on a future day.
-The discussion here terminated, and the House
bill-ally after adjourned till to-morrow.