The Sun.
London, England, 1823-06-13 00:00:00

rents had ended all daises SO itS Id `have produCed the
greatest distress. Ile wished to *hew that such was not the
fact, buiAnk.gi'eat:'endigeneral distress prevailed, before the
Act of ' 9 had posed into a law. If he should be able to
prove"d tliklittiodiiiig Masses connecteil with commerce and
manufact reVerlialtlinployed, were tatinquil and comfortably
enjovino4.4lolnit frnita o!their induAry, he hoped he might
be allpsVett to arlitit,thaf isirelieve these who might still suffer,
it v..oullig fhb{ be 4w7cii"i'U' Winer 'with the Currency. On the
13th of March, 1817, the. Honourable and Learned Gentle man.
had lisouitt,.;!'st7ard certain resolutions, which concluded
with i le fol °limb one t-L"'Tliat' the Trade and Manufactures
of the Country arc reduced' to 'such a state of unexampled
depression, m as doande the most serious consideration of this
House." In the course of his *peed', the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman stated that which fully justifies} the reso-
lution With WhiCh he had concluded., Ile;went . through the
several- branches of. commerce and manufactures; he pointed
, to, the ttiit'avourable state of the revenue, to the diScontents
whibli prevailed; told argued that if the manufacturing Otiose*
were so unfortunately eircutosuinced, it WAS not to be ex-
pected that agriculture could flourish. He concluded ,one of
the branches of his speech with this quotation--" Trade and
land," says Mr. Child, " tare each dependant on the other, and
so it never goes well with trade hut the land must flourish,
nor does it ever go ill with commerce but the land must fall."
Ile begged to take the llonourable and Learned Gentleman
for his attthority, and to say, that since trade and nuinufac-
tures flourished these held out a prospect of greater relief to the
agriculturist, than could be affintled bjt any proposition to
tamper with the currency of the country. The Honourable
Gentleman, to ihew the distress which prevailed, had referred
to the state in which Leeds and Halifax were then, where he had
found that not fewer than one:third of the whole pdpulation
were idle; tine not-More than t*d men in nine had full employ.
At the beginning of the present year, be (Mr. Secretary Peel)
had thought it his duty ni Mike nu:Pries on this subject, and I
accordingly addressed letters to all the local and Municipal
authorities,desiring information. He would only trouble the
House with that which applied to the criterion laid 'down in
1817 by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, by which, to judge
of the state of commerce anti manufactures. He would begin
with the great clothing districts, Leeds, Huddersfield, !fake.
and Halifax. Til6 Lion. and. Learned Gentleman find
stated in 1817, that out of 3,360 inhabitants of a particular
part, only 7117 were in full employ, while 1,164 were wholly
idle. From Huddersfield the report was, to the commencemeni
of this year, that she working classes we'ra well employed ;
that tithes were never so well with them, as Spinniii received 25
shillings per week, and weavers from 18 to 21 shillings, and
all were perfectly quiet. Thefe. 441 e great increaie of build:
log, and the Pours' rates, whiai In 1815 amounted to 10s. in
the pound were brought down by the beginning 'of 11121 to I
Us. 4d., and hail subsequently been reduced to 6s. Bd. Ile had
also made enqiiiilea with respect to Sheffield, as that, though
not in the disirief particularly alluded to, and though no
eltithing town, wail important for anOtheE branch of inttuttfy
there curried on. In Sheffield he found the poor's rites
had in 1820 amounted to 36,0001. In 1821 they had been re:
thi4ed to 25,0001.; in 1822 to 19,0001.; and the estinitte for
11123 was only-13,000!. giving a reduction of nearly two Ihirdi
of the whole amount from 1820 to 1823. He had inquired about
new buildings there, for if these continued to be increased and
to he inhabited there could be no doubt that the tenants of them
would furniih a valuable market for the agriculturists. To this
inquiry the answer given watetlntt at the time of the last census,
IWO houses were returned es untenanted, while nosy, though
huildin had gOne on to a considerable extent, scarcely a single
house seasunoccupied. In Halifax he found that labourers
had never been so well off for employment. The Poor.ratei
bad been much and gradually reduced, and a great incrcase in
the number of houses had taken place, at rents Of from seven
to.eight pounds per annum. So much for the clollsinn towns.
The Learned Gentleman had than spoken of Birmingliaiii,
which he aelected as affording a. fair view of the State of the
ikon trade ift that time. Ile' had stated (truly nit doubt) that
ciut-of a population of '114,000 pertions, 2,750. were relte*ed
front she Poor's Rates. • One.third of the Working claii were
out of' employ, the rest but half employed, and the l'oors'
!trues amounted to between 60 and 60,00. In the year
clooB2l2flo,:iini.naton_swer to his Inquiries, lie (Mr. Secretary Peel)learn-
ed that the werkinen were well employed—that there were no
toluierynelrieneerxeneroecnptedpdemapro
oautnn it feonocft disloyalty—and in a single parish
420'neti lid Uses haul been built. The Poore Rates, which in
1817 had amounted to between 50 and 60,00 W., were in 1820,
; in 1821, 111,000!.; in 1822, 47,0001. ; and in 1823,
faces,hoprt.wAtillti which
hisporiocvt proved
which
ch favourablecomprehended chan etioa
Manchester
t et ark: nn place
d i
its
in
exceedure ? 21110,"cali.ne noWwerteo tnhoatt dmloesree
im-
mediate neighbourhood. The picture drawn by the Learned Gen.
(to,lilyti,elasiteitsrett
thousandei ,
detgturo;rafittnathugnaadtttilhlnidesieemt rcipiireceerptar lersnnredel
d 8 lo7.nit hnaiedlatankeleinottyh,ebpdatilillesdtoouabscteetrltaniotn
ttrhuee
ti, v
ekrlaegleiada
m:statedount tihnerewoodffei wereireakg:
thet half f a million of weavers in that
outhule,eliadtpweerisg:rceceuutreipidisszed_yvne:;_telos,
rli e This,ilrut4
nt r:iicet trte tomis'
deserved attention. In 1800 the average pay of, 4 leaver
in,the distrjet referred to was 13s. per week ; in 1119 t, it had
fallen to 10's. ; in 1012, it declined to 6s. 4d. ; in 1816, to
ss. ; hi 1417, to 4s, W. • and in some instances, but 3s. 3d.
WAS the sail of a working man to maintain his family for
a week. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman wished not
to shock thefeclings of the House unnecessarily. but he felt it
his duty to state that in some instances half a pound of oatmeal,
with salt and water, was all the sustenance which the weaver
tasted through the day. At night the sufferers retired to bed
early, for though they might be employed through tril,night, a
man could only earn three halfpence, by. giving up Ina rest:, of
which he was obliged to pay a halfpenny for the candle he
worked by, and the labour {hum sustained so unfitted him
for work in the day that it was deemed better to go to bed than
to toil for the penny, Which was all he could get for his night's
work. This we the situation of the manufacturer there. He
called upon the House to look on that picture, and on this
which he hid to present. Now the Manchester cotton trade
was greater titan it had ever been known. It was not said that
the profits of the manufacturer were very large, but all parties
on to that
nweeirgehcboomutfohroodtableth.
anMworaes binuilpdrionggrewsasslanA veyreagro.infirhe
people
• Iwere tranquil, anti workmen, instead of receiving, as in 1818,
ss. 2d. per week, or 3e. 3d. as in 1817, were now paid us fol-
lows:—Fine spinners got 30e., coarse spinners from 20*. to
Ns. r cotton weavers, ten shillings, and Ark weavers, Ills.
per week. The Poor Rates in Manchester amounted in 11120
to 27,0001., in 1821 to 23,5001., but in the first three quarters of
the year 1822, they did not exceed 15,000/. There was now
ttiore employment than ever. In 36 townshipti, no ft4er than
100,000 men were employed. In two years the population in
those townships had been increased by 0,000 potions. Look-
ing at these happy changes, could any one say, that there was
any thing In the present state of our commercial or manufac.
airing interests whack &ado reMibn of the currency necessary.
The real question 14 tbehti to consider was, whether, if the
' distress alleged existqde it proceeded from the restoration of a
metallic currency. He admitted that the agricultural interest
was in a state o depression, but he could not admit that the
measure of 1819 had say considerable share in producing it.
lie Would take a proof of this from the speech of the !`lon.Member for Essex (Mr. NV astern) who now came fol Ward with
this motion. In 1816, that Hon. (ientiemeh told theni :4oal:v.ld
paid no rent at all. This was one of hiSreaolutiont On the sub..;
ject of agricultural distress at that time, and it was impositible
he could have a stronger argument to convince that Hen.
Gentleman time this deprodion did dot proceed from the mea-
sure of I'ol9.4llear, hear !)—He referred also to a speech of
the Hem and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Brougham), delivered
at the same period, fot a must able exposition of the causes,
altogether extrinsic a the metallic currency, which oper.ted
.to the depression of the agricultural interest. lie there
' pointed out most dearly how the extensive speculations in
land, which had brought two' millions of acres into eUltiva.
Lion, which haul never been tilled,- must tend that say, us well
as the consequent contraction of the circulating medium, from
the withdrawal of the war expenditure. Let the House only
' look to the fall in the price of wheat in one year long benne
I 181,9, as a furtherproof of his position. In 1813, for instance,
, the quarter of wheat was 120 s. In January, and in Novernho
1 following it was 745. He cited all these facts to chew thot the
, ' agricultoral interest was liable to the operation of causes to.
; P tally unconnected with the change of he standard currenc.
' He considered it equally clear that the restoration of the me.
Lillie currency could not affect the agricultural or other 'tote:
rests more than three or four pey cent. if so, the House he
, thought would not desire to tamper With the currency again for'
the sake of so small a considdittiatt. With regard to the' Bill
of 11119', be still considered it was the best step that could be
taken under the circumstances ; when the question wait, whe.
titer they should' have a new issue of paper, or make that Bite-
, ration which would place matters upon that footing, the depar.
titre front which has caused so many evils to the country. He
admitted that there were cases of individual injustice, but these
must yield in importance to the general good. He would now
(apply himself to some of the arguments of the Noble Lottl op.
polite (Lord Folkestone). Hsi tigil them that all he wanted
was equitable adjustment, and at led film wiiettier there was
not something in the very term to indu'c'e him to embrace it.
His answer was, that it was impracticable r and he asked the,
Noble Lord in return, how he would discover who was, and
who was not, the real creditor or debtor? People mud be
called upbtt' to produce their title•deeda, for one might have
made hue contract ten days ago, and another ten years. Then
again, lio* were they to discover and to arrange' the dif-
ferent periods of depreciation at which the various sums were
borrowed or engaged for ? The Noble Lord said, if I borrowed
a pound note at a time when it was only worth 175.-why am I
know to pay 201. ? True; but the Noble boi'd's contracts Were

•., . ,
Made at periiids when the Pound note was worth 15s. as well
as 17s. and alsd more than 20s. And if haves necessary these
should be duly attended to, what standard were they to take
to measure the depreciation ? The Noble Lord said the dif-
ference between the mint and market price of gold was no
criterion--how then were they to determine ? One Noble Lord
told them, there had been no contracts made lately, and ano-
ther informed them that' there had been a complete revolution
of property within the last two years, affording another proof
of the difficulty of applying an approved measure of value.
It was impossible they could do justice to such an undertaking
but by proceeding in the manner of a Court of Justice, exa-
mining title dears, and going into the particular merits of each
individual case ; and it really was a pretty summer amuse-
ment which the Hon. Member had proposed to them on the
13th of June, to revise all contracts sinee 1793. The House
having determined in 11121, and twice in 1822, that it would
not enter into any such inquiry, how.could they now assent to
it ? The Noble Lord had pointed out orie individual case of
hardship, as he asserted; but here again was the difficulty he
had all alone pointed out—for how was it possible for them to
distinguish betwixt improvident specol.itari and the ening:: in
the currency ! The year 1812 was remarkable for bad specula-
dons, and if dill were to go into all such casesethey would have
enough to do. It was for these united reasons, because he saw
the flourishing state of the manufacturing interests, from which
he hoped more benefit to agriculture, than *sly tunipering with
the currency, arid because he denied the competency of that
House to rectify one thousandth part of the contracts that had
been entered into since 1793, that lie gave his most unqualified
opposition.id the niou.—(Loitd cheering.)
Mr. BESNET cog d not, on a question of such magnitude,
give a silent. Vote. 3 ucfi as lie admired many of the sound
argumeas of the Right lion. Gentleman who had just sat down,
lie regretted he should resort to technicality for a defence.—
One of his arguments against thiS notion was, the time of the
year; but that he thought would appear wi.h an ill grace be-
fore the country, when it remembered that they had sat in
equally unseasonable periods, toWarths matters of fraud and
forgery.—( Hear !)—The Right Gentlenian told them that
the Manufacturing Interest was flourishing; but were not
wanes low—did the poor labourer benefit? But the Agricul-
tdrists he benevolently left to themselves, and truly it appeared
that in another cycle they might rttcover. The prices ot 1818,
it was titre, were high ; but then they were paper prices, and
produced by an inordinate issue of paper money. To ascer-
tain the real state of the country at present, they had nothing
to do but to compare the amount of poor-rates now, with the
amount for sonic other year. For instance, in 1812, the poor-
rates in paper currency amounted to 6,000,056/., and for the
year 1822, in metallic currency, it was as nearly as possible
the same. Now, he. Contended, that three millions now would
purchase as much of the commodities necessary for the exist.
ence of the poor, as six millions would in 11112, whence it was
evident that the country was twice as poor at present as it
was in 1812. It was in this gtmcral way that this question was
to be. viewed, and not With reference only to partial interests.
l.et them look at the impoverished state ot Ireland, where prices
were reduced to Whit was never known before, and yet the
rift ple were starviqg for Want of die Small means of purchasing
the necessaries of life. There were differences of opinion he
knew respecting the extent of depriiiiation, as well as npon
other parts of this subject; but these he held were so
reason,' to entering upon investigation.
3lr. IJEJSKISSON said, he had expected that the
Member tor Essex would haie followed die example of the Hon..
Member for 6onterset (air T. Lethbridge), and have abandon-
ed the enseasonablo motion he had thought fit to bring forward.
Certainly had he not been so personally allotted to in the de- ,
bate he should not have trespassed on the time of the House.
He really did tunic that in proportion as the country had ex-
isted long in a state of restored metallic currency, it would be
difficult to find reasons fur returning to thut state of currency
from whichrhey had departed. But still, if he could think the
evils of their situation were of st ch magnitude as they were
led
4t
h he
r grounds would
dnsi
put.a k e
fordsany sfaocrrti zmtoot i
ogetmotion
vriasd
one,
et,h_ :0714
every interest in the country was in a state o
ir‘emproesnegsnttedo
distress, and the lion. Member for Shrewsbury told them that
the poor rates of the present time were double what they were
in 1812. From thin he inferred that the country was twice as(
poor; but did,not the lion. Member leave entirely out of sight
that, since 1812, our population hea increased to the extent
of two millions ? Besides which, if it were triie, as he stated,
that three millions now would pprehese what six millions would
Le required to purchase in 1812, wai not that, a reason why the
ar,riculturists of the present day ought not to complain ot any
little abatement of rent ? '1 lie Motion of the lion. Member.
for Essex was, for a revision of all contracts for money sines
the year 1703. But, before they could enter upon such a task,
it was absolutely necessary for them to settle upon sonic stand-
ard by which to try the varying depreciation of different years
from that period. Upon this no one could be found to agree
with another. Neither was tilde tiny thing to shew that the
depreciation began in 1793. What reason, he asked, was there
fur such a supposition ? If it were to be ascertained by a re-
ference to the fineness and weight of the metal
with altering his'
eutrency, there W
was no ground for it. lie had been charged
opinion relative to corn ; but be still niaintained that if at
present corn
did not afford the British grower u remunerat:
ing price, itwould
net.hing inconsistent.i
in that with what he had maintained :
still .go higher than 170. There was
and the consumers of this country must not expect to be sup-
plied in esatifiroaance at present prices. When persons talked
of the price of corn being taken as a standard of value, they
must leave out of their recollections the great variations and
fluctuatidos as tried by the money mealtime to which that article
watt Subject. He thought his Noble Friend was inclined to look
at the question with teference to tbp rent of. land, and he hid
stated the depreciation to be 25 or 3O per cent. It might be so :
he (Mr. II.) believed it was; bit then, it wash, he remembered
that rents had doubled during the war, so that this was, at most,
bur a depreciation of 30 per cent. upon doubled rents. This
&Bend him from the apprehension expressed by his Noble
Friend, as to the destruction of thin Aristocracy. The
House mutt look at the landholder in the abstract, and at the'
fundholder in the abstract. If they looked at individual,
oesft attended
tpteeei
speculation.
laotrtitohi
enor.s e t
olwvphhuoesene.
cases on one side, they must do so in the other. The great evil
which had attended the derangement of the currency, so far as
shl:aoetwt
et rialnelsoa:tiett:ti tilialtagtt 111
iwss speculators, latora, and as liable to
estates were charged by circumstances which they could not
allce°ithnalattlrirceeanict.t-o;ndtitlillena'rnhleodunslueocs:west
his Noble Friend expressed Ins fetes that refit would fail alto-
gether, he surely forgot that English land always produced a
greater rent than any other land of the same description.
The Marquis of numi FIELD explained ; but so as not
to be heard.

Mr. HUSKISSON resumed, He should consider the int.'
poverishment of the Aristocracy as an evil of
tude; but he had no conception that the rental oletlaitellialant;
proprietors would be consumed merely by the alteration or
the currency. Undoubtedly there were many cases of dif-
ficulty; bu: he was sure his Noble Friend had too high
a sense of justice to think of relieving one class at the ex.
pence of another. The Noble Lord opposite had talked of
the case with which an equitable adjustment could be ef-
fected ; but really the illustrations which he put skewed that
it was impossible to effect it. Something had been said about
the Court of Chancery i but, if this proposal were to be
adopted, they must have more Courts of Chancery than they
rani had public houses.—.(A laugh !)—Universal confusio
would be the necessary and immediate result; all contidtne
between man and man would be destroyed. If we once brelei
in upon the rights of property, we should lose the beet eel.r.
rity by which we now endeavoured to maintain them. tau 11'4
Noble Friend had held out something like a clipped loc4nly '"
beirt a proper means of remedying the evil; and he par.i.
cularly said that lie would pay the Public Servants of thtf
Crown in thifttlipped. money. And, as allusion had been par.'
denier!), made to himself, he begged to inform his Noble Friend'
ahtit the salary of his office hail been lessened 25 pei cent.,
within a few years, end that it was now less than it was 15tf
years ago. It was therefore rather hard for his Noble Friend
tO propose making him a present of this clipped money.—;
(A laugh !)—The fact, however, was that the currency had'
been at last established, and the argument was, that public
Inconvenience would follow froth an alteration Of it. Much
indeed had bear A& Of depreciation ; but holy could dem:
ciatibh be understood or determined except by reference to
current value ?—(Hear, hear !)—He had not only not de.
:lied, he had even argued, that there was a diminution of
valhe; but if this were to be allowed as a reason for such an
inquiry as that which was now proposed, there would be no
end to inquiry. They must go Intl the whole system of
country banking, and appoint a Standing Committee for every
possible adjustment. If they were to a 4 upon this principle,
they would be at the'itilAq, not of the Bank of England alone,
but of every, foreign' State.America,,for instance,' might hake
large quantities of paper, and affect the value of our own cur-
rency. The Act of 181x9 had been described as a Calamity ;
but it had been proved that this Act had had no influence
on' the price of commodity, in the way in which' that sherd-
doh wits argued'. That Act had shut the door against future
fluctuation, and that was what had been intended. The price
of commodity always adjusted itself. Low prices might write
ineiettied cOnsumption ; but increased consumption would
lesson supply, and then the price would revive.—(Hear !)—lle
Would particular not go into all the points' whiCh had been
winced ; but he really could not forbear expressing his surprise
that his Noble Friend should stinpose this count!), was so
crippled that she could notod't6 war. He was convinced that
the amount of the taxes repealed, only repealed since the war.
were alone sufficient tb'form a fund for the maintenance of the
honour of the country. And there was no one of those taxes.
grievous as thiy Admitved they were; which the country would
not willingly bearclor the' Preservation of its rights and the