The Sun.
London, England, 1847-05-15 00:00:00

LONDON, SATURDAY MORNING, MAY 15, 1847

Mr. BLACKSTONE withdrew the motion of which
he had given notice—" That the Committee on Group 26
be allowed to proceed with the North Staffordshire Rail-
way (Alterations and Branches) Bill, and the North
Western Railway (Birmingham and Lichfield Line) Bill,
in the absence of the report from the Railway Commis-
sionners." . _

officer for the large sum of 2,300,0001., thOugh the Act of
incorporation originally authorised them only to raise
1,500,000/. The ten directors subscribed for 30,000/.,
one up to 260,000/. Now the Glasgow, Dumfries, and Car-
lisle Railway Company, the other company in question, was
originally empowered to raise 1,300,0001. in 52,000 shares of
25/. each, and as yet they had only raised 51. a share, or
243,000/. in all. The Ayrshire company had raised this year
for its extension schemes 153,0001. The subscription contract
of the Glasgow, Dumfries, and Carlisle Company had been
signed by eight directors and the secretary for 1,908,000/.,
being 170,0001. for each director, and 186,0001. for the secre-
tary. Such were the responsibilities of these two companies,
who had only in the one case raised 243,000/. and 153,000/.
respectively towards the large amount of capital
for which the directors had signed.—( Hear, hear. )
Now these two Commissioners came forward with Bills before
this House, and they proposed to raise by the six Bills before
the House a capital of 6,389 0001. These Commissioners came
before this House, and declared themselves ready and able to
raise this amount of 6,398,000/., and the only guarantee they
offered for this large amount was the subscription of the direc-
tors to the contract deed of the company. Now he would read
the contract deed, for he had furnished himself with all of these
documents. The report of the Commissioners said that the
original capital of the Greenock Company was 1,222,000/.,
and they sought to increase that capital by loans to, in the first
instance, 3,532.00:V. and in the other to 2,866,004., making
a total of 116,398,0;101., which was to be guaranteed
by the subscription of the directors to the contract deed•
(The Hon. Member then read extracts from the report of the
directors, showing that in compliance with the standing orders
they had, through the instrumentality of the National Bank
of Scotland, paid in to the Accountant of the Court of
Chancery the ten per cent, on their capital required by the
standing orders.) That was done in order to secure the com-
pany, and he stated the facts in order that the whole of the
matter might be brought out. He deeply regretted that any
Scotch Bank had been found to act in such a way, and especially
any chartered batik; but above all that the National Bank of Scot-
land should consent to place themselves in such a position. Then
there was the company for forming aline to Bury St. Edmund's,
the repot tof which he held in his hand That company had
last session sought to obtain six Bills, the united capital to be
raised being 2,000,000/. with power to get 700,000/. on loan.
By the Acts which they obtained in 1845 and 1846 they were
entitled to raise still further capital, and for this they had is-
sued 16,000 shares of 251. each. On these they had made a
call of 224,0001., and the whole amount that same in upon
these calls was 2041. They had issued about 22,000 shares, on
which they had raised 90,0001., and the whole of the capital
which they had obtained was 334,0001. Now, this company
came before Parliament in the present session for six Bills.
The subscription contract was signed by twelve directors for
1,612,000 f., and they asked for powers to saise an additional
capital of 2,700,0001. Did not such a state of things as that
require amendment? He was sorry, indeed, that honest railway
companies should suffer for these acts, but his resolution to be
effective must be general. He could increase the number of
tchoomnpaahnti ehse whhao had b d
mentioned een guilty
sue of these
eo tto
inducema lpr atcht iec but
ous he
to
accede to his resolution. He really thought that Parliament
ought to stop the progress of every railway Bill brought for.
ward this session, but such a coarse as that might inflict injus-
tice upon many deserving companies, and he was therefore not
prepared to propose it. He thought it necessary that Parlia-
ment should interfere in some way in this subject upon several
grounds, he thought the public ought to know what the deal-
ings and conduct of every railway board was; he thought the
House ought to interfere in consequence of the pressure which
the country felt from the present state of Ireland and dearness of
provisions in this country, and upon the ground of the difficulty
which manufacturers experienced in obtaining discount on their
Bills. He anticipated nothing but distress and confusion from
the Commissioners not interfering in the subject. He could
not have believed it possible for such transactions as ho had
referred to to have taken place in open day. He did not wish
to say anything against any individual director; he wished
only to call attention to the whole system, and to claim the
interference of Parliament. If they allowed things to go on in
the same way they would be alone responsible for the miss
chiefs that might ensue. He did not know any means more
effectual for checking the evil than by the House affirming the
resolution he had moved. He did not contemplate any oppo-
sition to the resolution from any free and independent Mem-
ber. He begged, therefore, to move the resolution he had
read to the House.
Mr. GREEN begged to suggest to the Hon. Gentleman
the propriety of making a slight alteration in the resolution, to
the effect, " that in every Bill to enable, &c., a clause should
be introduced," &c., so as to remove all technical objection.
Mr. HUME having assented to the suggestion,
Mr. JOHN ABEL SMITH seeonded the motion, though
he did not quite agree with him in all the particulars to which
the Hon. Member had adverted. He thought, however, that
the House was under a great obligation to the Hon. Gentleman
for having called its attention to this subject, as it appeared to
him that the state of the railway legislation demanded their
most serious consideration. He was also of opinion, that if the
statements which he had made were correct, his resolution did
not go far enough; and without intending to raise the question
which had been so lately and so justly occupying the attention
of the House—he meant the monetary system—he thought no
one could deny but the influence of railways on the
capital of the country formed a most important
element in its consideration. He therefore hoped that
resolution might elicit from the House and the Government
some opinion as to the propriety of proceeding with the Rail-
way Bills, at present in progress, before Parliament. It was
enough for them to remember that during the last two years
they had sanctioned Bills to raise a capital exceeding 96
millions, while the Bills before the House of the present year,
embraced a capital of 87 millions. Considering the present
state of the country, the vast call made for provisions, and the
uncertainty of the tuture harvest, it behoved the House and the
Government to pause ere they sanctioned any other scheme at
present. He had no wish to depreciate railway enterprise, or
the advantages they conferred, but he did hope something
would be done with the Bills at present before Parliament. He
would not be justified in saying more at present, as he did it in
order to draw forth the opinions of the House, and
to learn what the intentions of the Government were.
Celenel SI BTHORPE thought it was too late to close the
stable door when the steed was stolen. Some twenty-five
years ago he had foreseen this state of things ; and, therefore,
he had never taken a railway share, nor did he intend to do so.
He asked the Hon. Member for Montrose where he was when
these Bills were before the House, and nine or ten Hon. Mem-
bers used to meet at twelve or four o'clock, and settle all these
important measures. As it was too late for the Hon. Member
to oppose the progress of the measures with effect now, still, as
he agreed with the motion, it should have his support. He
hoped that this motion of the Hon. Member for Montrose
would be followed by others of a similar character, and though
this was late in the day, it would have his earnest and cordial
support.
fmii
Mr. HUDSON was not at all surprised that this question
had been brought before the House on the present occasion,
but he wished to say a few words on the motion which had
twra
hanas: ds
eocdtuoht
nelh
an
had
dae
ort
not
ode
t.
railways,a
hm
Teoe
hunen
included. o
been submitted to the House. He was exceedingly glad that
in all companies to which the Hon. Member had referred, the
large amount of capital which had been entrusted to them,
the formation of new lintineoeirsn.
thing would have been brought to light concerning them, but
he had not said a word relative to thebcom ianies with which he
ageHeforhawdheicxhpetehtaedt cthapatitsaolmwea_s
Mr. SMITH explained on that outlay.—(Cries of " Hear, and " No, no.") He
o
had strong feelings on the subject.;at thAoalrletemahasebtteahhrtn9aiosyad
rprmnar,
,tleooevtt ietosnonat
ipdsutohatuegawh
Limitation
rumdtt
taaabyst
about
foouonprt
limiting the outlay for railways,but he thought that some
formation of
law should be imposed for restricting the
new
rail ways.
Mr. 1-IUDSON_In other words, the Hon. Member would
restrict the outlay for the promotion
om9tio, n of new lines in order to
w
retain the monopoly which
in the possession of the com-
panies who had the old ones. If they restrained the outlay for
railways—if the House interfered
for that purpose—why not
restrict the outlay for ironworks, for cotton factories, and all
other manufactories in the country, in
for in no
'business was
in which large numbers of
able-bodied labourers were
employed,
there a greater number of labourers de riving comfortable wages,
and in which capital was more usefully expended, than in the
promotion of railways. The people of this country had deter-
mined the way in which their capital should go, and he thought
that the House ought to be very cautious of interfering
with any business on which so large a number of la-
bourers depended. He had himself been
very anxious to obtain
the number of able-bodied labourers who were occupied
under those with whom he had to do, and he found that there
were not less than 50,000
people receiving wages from the
directors over whom he had the honour to preside. If they
instituted this principle, they would directly say that the public
should not employ the men in that way, and would deprive a
large class of that subsistence which they had hitherto enjoyed.
With respect to the creation of so many kinds of shares, which
were called into existence under various circumstances, there
was no difficulty whatever in the accounts to which the Hon.
Member had referred. He quite agreed with the danger
of companies undertaking to raise large sums without
any capital paid up. It was not the fault of the system that
various railway companies had been placed in an unfair posi-
tion. He always considered it more safe for the public of this
country to invest their money in railways than in foreign secu-
rities. He thought the resolution one which required great
consideration, and he did not think it would be wise for the
Hon. Member to press his motion. He thought that the
Committees of the House were too willing to give facilities to
companies to raise large sums of money who had themselves
no capital. It hail been said that 88,000,000/. had been spent
in the construction of railways, but the country derived a re-
venue from that soure of upwards of 9,000,000/., and conferred
also innumerable benefits upon the merchants, the manufac-
turers, and the cottagers. Had there been a good harvest this
year there would not have been the slightest difficulty felt as to
a pressure upon the money market. He thought that the
y companiesa ffairs.
at he capital ro-
present before
es
House had power in their hands already to put a check to the
T
evil complained of by the Hon. Member, by not too readily
granting powers to new companies which had no amount of
capital paid up.
Lord HARRY VANE said that the Hon. Member who
spoke last entertained some doubts whether the resolution
would accomplish the object intended. He himself concurred
in those doubts, but he thought something ought to be done in
Parsentiliamentalthat was most enormous, and he
the question of capital should form a s thought it absoutely
peciall con
it)hoeseidire to present uncertainty
theofrarialwilea•ya
sideration with the Select Committee, as the attention of the
Committees sitting on groups was confined, and vex
too, to the merits of
each case referred to them Properly
• or
he leave out the Great Western Company from the sc could
scope of
his observations; and he considered that Parliament should
interfere and prevent the directors of these companies from
a
signing contracts for the sole purpose of purchasing
great d i
tricts. Looking at the great difficulties of the sail•Wa s-
panies themselves, he considered that it would be a yc
wholesome
check to prevent interest being paid upon calls.
Mr. E. ELLICE said that he was glad that this subject
had
been brought under the notice of the House, for he considered
that
Parliament should have interfered a long time
ago. He
had been selected to preside over Committee ;.n which two
companies were suing for powers to raise additional capital,
and he reported to the House at that time, when the Ri h
Hon. Baronet the Member for ,when was Prime Min' t
that it was requisite that some stepsrd should be taken in Ortdeer;
to check the progress of unmatunoet railway schemes, but he
to say that they didreceive
was sorry
he Board any attention from
the late Vice-President of t of Trade, or from, in•
deed, until lately, even the present Government, He had suc-
ceeded, however, in passing a resolution requiring g all railwa
Bills to be referred to the Railway Commissioners in or tyo
inquire as to their financial accounts, :and to enable them to
report to the House. The standing orders of the House were
openly evaded, and he hop •d that the House
would pass a re-
• order of the House • solution that the standing , requiring a cer-
tain number of shareholders to signearscontract, which should be
binding on themselves, their
_h , and executors, should
adhered to. If .
hereafter be strictly this was done
(Ter be a door open for fraud. H
there would no lon
e hoped
(would post one the di •
that his Hon. Friend' wou p discussion to a fixture
day, in 'order to give time for further consideration on the
subject.
Sir. HODGSON said that it would be better for the Hon.
Member to withdraw his resolution.i It would be a most un-
heard of injustice if at this period of thel session that any reso-
lution putting a wholesale stop all • !at way companies received
the sanction of the House. He denied the justice of the attack
which had been made on the Ayrshire company, which was one
of the most substantial in Scotland. The Glasgow,
Dumfries,
and Carlisle Company was also a most respectable undertaking,
and did not deserve the aspersions cast upon it.

Captain MANGLES said the present motion was a most
important one, and they should consider it carefully ere they
gave a decisicn. He ( Captain Mangles) thought this check
a very beneficial one,_ and he could net sanction any proceeding
on the part of the House that would prevent capitalists, or
those who had small sums of money from investing them in
loans on railway undertakings. A few years ago there was the
greatest difficulty in gettingany interest at all, and now, when
a benefit was likely to be had, they ought to possess it. With
regard to the returns of the North-Western Company, he
begged to say, they were sent in to the commissioners on the
Bth of April.
Mr. CHAPLIN wished the Hon. Member for Montrose
had had only a year's experience as a railway director, nr
chairman, and then he would know more about the question
than he did. From his experience the established lines were
often obliged to make extensions in self defence. Some few
years back as soon as a line was talked of for Epsom the
atmospheric project was started, which, after being laid down
for a few years, was now being taken up. The same applied
to the Reading and Guilford line. Again, they were assailed
by a Direct Portsmouth line, which at last was sanctioned by
Parliament. Such was the position in which the South-
Western Company had been placed. Whatever was done, full time
should be given for deliberation. The Hon. Member for Her-
were two schemes lest they might offer a serious check to
wick hail said the borrowing provisions were a sufficient check
on undue progress in these undertakings. Si) far as private
capitalists were concerned this was perfectly true, though
it might not be so of banking establishments. Thus the estab-
lished lines were in every direction assailed by speculators,
and unless the former took measures to occupy the ground they
were sure to be deprived of their legitimate traffic. Now, the
Legislature had supported this system for the last two years.
He did hope ere they acted on the advice of the Hon. Member
for Montrose, the House would see what the Government had
to propose in its stead.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL could not give his consent to the
resolution of the Hon. Member for Montrose. It did not
appear to him necessary; nor did he see that it would effect
the object which was sought to be obtained. He did not
think either that it would be just to the railway companies, or
the public at large, to press such a resolution. The Hon.
Member for Newcastle, had stated a case which bore strongly
on the present question. He supposed the case of a main line
which wanted to make a branch, which was of great import-
ance, to secure and develop their traffic. Now, according to
the provisions of the present resolution, such a main line could
not authorize the making of a branch until it was com•

pleted. It was not wise for them to say that, till a
certain company made the main branch they should
not have the power of making a branch which might
be of the greatest importance. Unless they did so, perhaps,an
independent company wculd be got up to occupy the ground.
—(Hear, hear.) The resolution would not meet the evils
which were complained of. Regarding railway enterprise ge
nerally, he hoped the House would not interfere without due
consideration. Because they had hitherto tcted

a, . in a lax
system, they should take care and not fall into the error of the op-
p osite eextre. They ough t to be cauous how they checked that wholesomeem application of capital toti railway enterprise which
had hitherto proved so advantageous. He did not agree with
the Ron. Member for Coventry, that this House should step
in and interfere to place a greater control upon railway pro-
ceedings than had hitherto been imposed. The course previ-
ously had been to appoint Committees, and no Bill could obtain
the sanction of the House without consideration and
discussion. There was every opportunity for the
fullest investigation if that were thought necessary.
He remembered, also, when such money was sent away and
invested in foreign stocks not very useful to this country, while
at another time the capital of this country was sent to North
America to be spent in the construction of canals; and he re
membered the debtors of the country who borrowed that
money, were not very ready in repaying it. How unwise,
therefore, it would be to restrict the application of capital to
the construction of railways in the country, when by doing so
they would divert it into channels which would result in injury
and loss to the country. On the other hand, however, it might
be possible for money to be expended in railways which were
calculated to lead to the ruin of the parties promoting them ;
but in a case like that, it was the duty of the
House to interfere and stop the progress of the railway ; but
still he was decidedly of opinion that Parliament ought to be
extremely cautious in interfering with the progress of these
undertakings. It must be clear to the House, however, that
upon subjects connected with the capital and solvency of parti-
cular companies, that it required some other agency than a
Committee of five Members of that House to inquire into such
a matter as that, or to report upon the expediency of leasing
or amalgamating particular lines at high rates of interest; but
that would be a subject for discussion on another evening, and
he would not further detain the House upon it. There could
be no doubt whatever that the railways had proved highly ad-
vantageous to the country, and, perhaps, it was difficult to
calculate what future benefits were to be derived from them ;
and he was, therefore, decidedly of opinion that too much cau-
tion could not be used in their endeavours to stop the progress
of these undertakings.
Mr. COLLETT trusted, after what had fallen from the
Noble Lord who had just sat down, the Hon. Member for
Montrose would not persist in his resolution.
Lord GEORGE BENTINCK said the resolution would
be impracticable, supposing the House were to agree to it.
For instance, one portion of it said one railway company
should not be allowed to sell the line of another. Now he was
at a lo.s to understand how, by any possibility, one company
could ever be in a position to sell the line of another. The
Noble Lord at the head of the Government had spoken of
those speculations in North America. He could mention
another speculation which proved no less disastrous, and if
he was not mistaken, with which the Hon. Member for Mon-
trose had something to do, namely, the Greek loans. It would
have been much better had that money been invested in rail-
ways in this country, rather than thrown away upon a foreign
nation, and he trusted the fart he had mentioned would be
taken as another reason why they should not interfere with the
application of capital to works at home,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought his
Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose would do well to with-
draw his resolution ; at the same time, however, he thought
good would result from this discussion. Much of the evil which
the Hon. Gentleman had spoken of was traceable to the Com-
mittees of that House rather than to the railway directors. He
considered it would be much better if the Hon. Member for
Montrose would postpone his resolution, either by adjourning
the debate or withdrawing it till a future occasion.
Mr. HENLEY called attention to tho difference in the deci-
sions of the Committees of the House and the Railway Com-
missioners, and was of opinion that some means should be
adopted to procure uniformity.
Mr. MORRISON said that during the last two years there
had been forty millions devoted to railway speculations, and this
year also a very large sum was required. When in addition to this
the expenditure for the famine in Ireland was taken into conside-
ration, it would be found to be quite impossible for them to go
on in that expenditure much longer. If they proceeded in this
way, he would ask how were their manufactures to go on ?
The capital would be all abstracted from its legitimate course,
and though large manufacturers might be able to carry on
their business, small men would be completely ruined. The
only remedy which they could apply to this state of things was
to reduce the profits of capital invested in these undertakings,
to the same level as that embarked in other undertakings.
Instead, however, of any measure being taken for that pur-
pose, every interference of the Legislature was in the contrary
direction. Some one must suffer for this in the long run, and
the sooner they attempted to arrest the evil the better would it
be for the country. He was very indifferent whether his
Hon. Friend's resolution was carried, but he thought the dis-
cussion it had produced would be of great advantage as it
would call public attention to the subject.---( Hear.)
Mr. HORSMAN thought that when the immense amount
of capital which was to be expended on railways was consi-
dered—being 160 millions within the last few years, and 80
millions the present year—some measures should be adopted to
prevent so large an abstraction of it from the undertakings in
which it was legitimately embarked. Feeling that the Go-
vernment were about to adopt measures in respect to railway
legislation, he could not support the proposition before the
House, and he hoped the Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Montrose would withdraw his resolution.

Mr. NEWDEGATE merely rose to protest against the doc-
trine propounded by the Hon. Member for Inverness, that they
should interfere to regulate the profits on railways. He was
astonished to hear such a doctrine deliberately enunciated.
Mr. MORRISON explained. He had never said anything
of the kind.

Mr. NE'SVDEGATE regretted if he misunderstood the
Hon. Gentlemen. He c,nsidered that the proposition he
made was to reduce the profits on railways to a level with other
speculations, and if that did not
Mr. MORRISON, interrupting, said that what he stated
was, that the profits on railways should not be larger than any
other kind of speculation.—( Hear, hear, hear. )
Mr. MITCHELL said that the expenditure on railways was
taken from trade and manufactures, and on that account he
thought that measures should be adopted for preventing its ab-
straction from these interests.

Mr. STUART said he was very much struck at the course
of argument pursued by the Hon. Member for Bridport. Was
the Hon. Member a free trader? Did he not think every-
one was at liberty to divert his capital to what purposes he
pleased ?—(lronical cheers.) What was the course the Hon.
Member took on the Corn Bill? Why, it was likely that he
voted just that capital might be directed into particular
channels. Now it was evident it was so, for the Hon. Mem-
bert rnr. directionwT pßorfEe
(fLtearApriewt da uHsraes
ieadrt:ffrheLeee.
rgt.i )
adtoi o
ai t
ge foedr,i n
bg u
twai t
pha
rt
the
NY
s
cular case rested on its own merits, and they had carried that
case too tar. Capital on railways was entirely sunk. Nothingcould be recovered except from the dividends, and in many
cases there could be no dividend, because the capital was
swallowed up, and was still insufficient for the purposes to
which it was applied.
Mr. AINSWORTH thought that railways gave employ-
ment, and prevented the capital from going out of the
Country.
Mr. HUME replied—He was not at all surprised at the
speeches of the three Hon. Members who had spoken last, for
they did not understand the subject.—(lronical cheers.)
but the Hon. Member for Bridport (Mr. Mitchell), and the
Hon. Member near him (\Jr. Trelavrny), were perfectly
sound. Why, if he could prove that a number of men, who
projected a railway, with a capital of 4,000,000/., put a bonus
of 3,900,000/. into their pockets, and he could prove, and
would prove it, then capital would rapidly run in such direc-
tion. He had been challenged that night for not bringing for-
ward his motion earlier. His motion was presented and laid
before a Committee last year, and but for the time of the
session, it would have been brought forward. He admitted,
with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with whom he never
agreed, and with a Noble Lord, that the motion was per-
haps of too simple a character, and it might be well to post-
pone it, that some more general Act might be brought in for
the same object. He had only proposed this as a step ; he,
therefore, proposed adjourning this question to this night week.
But he must protest against any Committee being formed.
The debate was then adjourned.
VAN DIEMEN'S LAND.

Mr. HUME said that on next Monday ha would ask a ques-
tion of the Noble Lord the Member for London, whether it was
the intention of her Majesty's Government to give a repre-
presentative system to Van Diemen's Land, or any other of the
colonies.

to Rome. At the present late period of the session, he did
not think that they could introduce a Bill to make this law
clear. He could not introduce such a Bill, but he did hope et
some future time to legislate upon the subject, and he did
think that it would be most desirable to establish more formal
diplomatical relations.
LOAN DISCOUNT BILL.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved that the House do ge into
Committee upon the Loan and Discount Bill.
The Marquis of GRANBY said that he felt that he should
make some apology to the House for venturing to address them
upon such an important subject. He conceived, however, that
the question for discussion was not to be confined to the pro-
positions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but that they
should take a more extended view, and see how far the law of
1844 had reference to the subject. It had been admitted on all
hands that the distress was excessive. On that subject he
would read a letter from Mr. Foster, of York, in which it was
stated that the distress in the country was very great, and that
not fewer than 9,000 operatives in one part of the country
were out of employment. In another 433 mills were working
short time. This distress bad taken place under the law of
1844; it was said then that it was impossible to foresee what
would be the evils which would spring from it. It was tru
that the vessel of the state swam gallantly en when all
was calm, but the first moment a storm arose she did
not answer her helm. The fill of 1844 was intended to be the
helm, and while there was no want of its guiding power.
all
went well, but when the moment of peril e Mme, it had been
found wholly inoperative. It had been said, how could &I
these evils be foreseen ? It was asked, could the potato failure
be prophesied, the scarcity of corn foretold, and the speculation
in railways been prevented. The Hon. Member for Shrews_
bury had presented a memorial on the subject, so had all the
eminent bankers of the Cify, but they did not receive anv atten-
tion. He begged the House to cor.sider the distress the present
currency policy would insure. The mills it u, uld stop, the
Itbourers it would throw idle, the commercial and trading em-
b3rassments it would occasion. If they did so, he was sure they
would see the importance of a change. He had in his possession
a return of the raw cotton in the ports of London, Liverpool, and Glasgow in 1845, 1846, and 1847, the bales of cotton were 1,624,744 ; in 1846, 1,576,804 ; and in 1847, only 1,320,944.
There had been imported between the months of January and
the 30th of April, 1845, 727,784 bales; in 1846, 501,107; and
in 1847, only 487,154. At the present time there were no
stocks on hand to meet any extra demand that might spring up,
and therefore for some time there was no relief to be expected
from such a quarter. What was the function of money but to
facilitate exchange? and if so, when population increased, and
property enlarged, might not also the circulating medium so
expand in the same ratio ? But the Bank Act of 1844 pre-
vented this, and said whatever the exigencies of the country
may be, it would not allow the currency to be increased, unless
a certain amount of gold was in possession. This, too, was
stated by a Government that was obliged to make issues on
Government securities.—( Hear, hear.) In 1845, they had
heard a good deal about the great benefit the free trade measures
would produce. Look at the state of the country now. A great
variety of duties had been taken off in pursuance of the
free trade theory, and the result was not to increase the
importation of real necessaries of life, but to lead to a great im-
portation of mere luxuries, many of which had abridged the
field of labour at home. The excess of such imports in 1847,
as compared with 1845, was 4,333,7921., in official value. Such
had been the result of their free trade policy, America was
enabled to get a higher price for her provisions than any other,
and therefore they could not judge of their free trade by the
! case of America. He considered that the Noble Member for
Lynn had spoken out the true policy which ought to be pur-
sued, when he said—protect your own industry, protect your
own manufactures. He considered the truth of that sentiment
was daily proved, and no matter what eloquence opposed it.
He hoped that the Government would listen to the voice of the
intelligent and industrious people of the country, by extending
the currency by repealing the Act of 1844.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the main portion of the Noble Lord's speech was i ted
against free trade, but he forgot to take into calculationre;)
long free trade had endured with unexampled prosperity otw
the country. For it was not until last August when the°
began to import corn that gold began to flow out of they
country.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord could not say that
their produce was diminished by the Act of last year.—( Hear,
hear.) Of course not; well then, he would ask him, how
would it stand with them had not these restrictions been taken
off. He would not follow the Noble Lord into the extensive
field of argument, into which they had been invited to enter
The Hon. Member opposite had asked him to give a pledge.
that in no case whatsoever would he call upon the Bank for de-
ficiency bills. Now he would not make any such promise. It
is perfectly true that the question on which the country was
intereted was that of the currency, the maintenance, or the
non-maintenance of the Act of 1844. On that question, the
Right Hon. Member for Tamworth stated most freely to the
House, that no affection for his own offspring should induce him
from giving afull consideration to the question, He had not the
slightest objection to such a discussion, and no doubt it might
be well to bring it before the House ; but the question of re-
pealing it had never entered, and he trusted never would
enter into the contemplation of her Majesty's Government.
and when he gave it the most unshaken support, 'he then sat
upon the opposite side of the House.—(Hear, hear.) But he
did give it his firm support because he had come to a deep-
seated conviction that the Bill did carry in it the sound pr'n-
ciples on which the currency was to be based. He was placed in
the situation of Chairman of the Bank Committee, and they
had examined before them some of the ablest men in the coun-
try. There opinions were carefully examined, and he entered
the Committee without any prejudice on one side or another,
but he did leave it impressed that the principles of the 'Bill were
sound. In that opinion he remained unshaken; and as to the
expediency of that Act, he was more and more confirmed by
the discussion which had taken place, because nothing could be
more apparent then the extraordinary discrepancy of opinion
which existed amongst the advocates of its abolition. The
Hon. Member for Birmingham said, the measure was indis-
pensable for carrying out the Act of the year 1819,
and if we are to satisfy him we are to repeal the Act
of 1819 ; and then we get back to the year 1797.
They had no silver standard then, nothing could be more
dangerous or uncertain than to repeal the Act. Hon. Gen-
tlemen could agree as to what should be the state of the law
after its repeal. Another Hon. Member recommended the
adoption of free trade in banking, which means unlimited
issue. He ought, however, to refer to the case of America
in 1837, when unlimited issue was permitted with every pos-
sible guard, but where it ended in the universal suspension of
cash payments, and very general bankruptcy of the Union.
It was not fair for Hon. Gentlemen opposite, when they found
their expectations with regard to the measure of 1844 not
realised, to turn round to blame them on his side of the House
for holding out expectations directly the converse of what they
really did hold out. He was very much surprised
at the charge of the Hon. Member for Huntingdon
' with respect to the conduct adapted by Government
with regard to the loan. If the contractors of that
loan were deceived, they must have deceived themselves as
the Government had made them perfectly aware of thdir inten-
tions. His object was to effect the arrangements connected
with the loan, with as little disturbance to the monetary affairs
of the country as possible. He did not assent to the proposal
of the contractors to spread the loan over a longer period of
payment, and to give a larger amount of discount. Circum-
stances had, however, changed since then, and he
had made the proposal now before the House, to
give a larger amount of discount, that there might
be a larger balance in the Exchequer before July next. He
denied some charges which had been combatted in that House
as having been made against the Bank of England by the ad-
vocates of the measure of 1844, but he denied those charges, as
they had never been made by the Government. The Hon.
Member for Shrewsbury was right in principle with regard to
the circulation of 1836, 1839, and 1847, but he thought the
Hon. Member for Shrewsbury, and the Noble Lord the Mem-
ber for Lynn, were inconsistent with regard to the statement of
the operation of the measure of 1844. The one said that the
Act had the effect of contracting the circulation, and the other
said that had it been in operation in 1839 it would be wholly
inoperative. Now he did not think that both the Honour-
able Gentleman and the Noble Lord could both claim the
benefit of the different views they took of that measure.
What then was the professed objects of this Bill? It was in-
tended to regulate the paper in reference to the metallic cur-
rency. This being the professed object,of the Bill, if what had
happened under special circumstances, might have happened
with a purely metallic currency, then it had effected as much,
and even more, than it professed. If, under the same circum-
stances, which had existed for the last eight months, they had
had a pure metallic currency, or if the gold had gone direct
from the Mint, and not from the Bank of England, there
would still have been a drain of gold, as there had been from
the coffers of the Bank, and there would have been no more
in the pockets of the people. He was rather surprised
at an assertion made by a Noble Lord about the con-
vertibility of the coinage. He did not know how to
treat it, for it was hardly intelligible.—(Laughter.) Why,
convertibility, when used by any one, meant that for a pound-
note the holder could at any time receive a sovereign in gold.
No one who used the word could for a moment suppose that
there should always be the same amount of gold. What was
meant by it was, that a gold sovereign could be got in ex-
change for a one pound-note ; and that was the principle of the
Act of 1844, which was founded upon the Act of 1819, gua-
ranteeing that there should be a security equal to the amount
of paper in circulation—a guarantee not merely theoretical
but practical—that paper should be actually convertible. As
for the particular views of the Hon. Member for Birmingham
(Mr. Spooner)about the standard of gold varying, when he
brought forwrd a measure which could carry out his views,
p it might be possible to discuss them. The Hon.
perhaps
Member for North Warwickshire, who did not hold the opi-
nion of the Hon. Member for Birmingham, maintained the
standard had been fixed by the Acts of 1844 and 1819. The Act
of 1844 only regulated the ratio of paper circulation to the
gold coinage ,• the Act of 1819 did not do much more. For in
1817 the faith of Parliament was pledged, and the old standard
was practically restored in that year. But suppose the Han.
Member's ideas were put to practice ; suppose that 100 grains,
instead of 23 grains, were adopted; that a pound should be a
dollar ; he did not mean to say it would pass for a pound,
because if the people on the other side of the Atlantic agreed
to create a currency of 123 grains of gold, they would
expect in exchange for cotton, or any other commodity,
not what might be called a pound, but 123 grains of gold.
Really the Hon. Gentleman mistook the substance for the
shadow, and in seeking the adoption of his plan, forgot that the
whole value of our exchanges would be altered, and that in
America not the stated value of gold, but its actual intrinsic
value as metal, was looked at, and so considered. He stated,
in introducing the subject, that no effort on the part of the Go-
vernment would remove the embarrassment which existed in
trade, by altering the currency. The Government had
been stated to have shown want of decision;
but he conceived that they had acted promptly, and clearly
stated their views on the subject. The Government had no ,
intention to alter the Act of 1844. What was the cause of
the suffering in the cot,ntry? There was, for instance, the
high price of cotton, which the Noble Lord said an alteration
of the currency would retrieve; but this was a most extra-
ordinary argument. When high rates of interest rendered
money scarce, the Hon. Gentleman the Member
for Bir-
mingham (Mr. Spooner) said this was a proof of aderange-
ment in the currency ; but this was a great mistake, as a large
quantity of money and notes bad been in circulation at
a period when rates of interest were exceedingly high.
Whilst immense sums of money was locked up in railways, a
greater amount of money could not be put into circulation by
means of one pound notes. The great pressure upon the
country was the want of food, and the great quantity of nloney
required to purchase it. There had not only been a defitiene in the harvest of this country, but the deficiency had spread
itself almost over the whole of the Continent of Europe. The
consequence was, that England was not the only B customer in
the food market, but France and German portions of Prussia, were looking to the Germany,
delgSituamtes and
for
admitted that symptoms
supplies of corn. He readily
of improvement had latterly manifested thentselies, but he felt
that he should be wanting in his public duty if he did not warn
the House that there were haPrd times before them. The
country must struggle against these coming difficulties, and he
had too much confidence in the firmness and stern determina-
tion of her people to believe that they would not successfully
bear up against them. Directly that it was made known that
their corn would be received here, he was sure England would
become the point at which the supplies for the whole of Europe
would centralize. He had, therefore, no very great fears for the
coming struggle.
Mr. HEN LEY said the Right Hon. Baronet, who had just
sat down, had, at the beginning, in the middle, and at the con-
clusione of his speech, attempted to direct the attention the
House Le
House from the real question at issue, by speaki
standard of value of 1817, just in the same way
lo to knew
mudded the water when they did not want peoP
that fishermeno.