The Sun.
London, England, 1812-04-15 00:00:00

BANK OF ENGLAND.

Earl GREY rose to bring forward the motion le-
speating which he had recently given notice. It
would gc, he obJerved, first, for an account of the
total value of the notes refused in payment at the
Bank since the year 170, on the ground of their
being forged, distinguishing the value of those in
each respective year since that period. To this, he
believed, no objeetion would be made. But the in-
formation he most wished for, and without which
the anterior would be nugatory, was an account of
the number of the noses so presented; this be
thought more especially necessary, with a view to
the discussion of the measure which would ere-long

come before that House. Such a statement alone—,

be said, would enable them to form a. judgment how
0 far individuals, were likely to suffer in that way
under the system, which that measure went to ex-
tend, and to continue. The Noble Eail then mov-
. ed fur an account of the value of the notes as above
from the year 1797 to the latest period the slate
could be made up, distinguishing the nominal value
of the notes so presented in each year, &c. which
was forthwith agreed to by the House.
His Lordship then moved for the production of
an. Account of the number of Notes 40 presented
and returned.

On the question. ,
The Earl of LIVERPOOL observed, that to the
trst part of the Noble Earl's proposition he thought,
under the present circumstances, and with reference
t 0 the Bill in its progress in that House, no ratio-
nal objection could be made. It, besides, would
furnish all the necessary or useful information de-
aired, inasmuch as the specification of the value in
each year would shew the progress as weld as the
extent of the evil, With regard to that under con-
sideration, be certainly entertained no objections;
it would also, on the Noble Earl's own pound, af-
ford but little further information, except a distinc-
tion was made between.the notes hew: and above
the sum of 51. One strong objection was, that it
ufould affo.d information as to what description of
motes forgeriefi may be the more easily made; every
s seful purpose would be answered by a specifica!

tion of rtMual number and total value of the,,

noes retu•ed in each year, and whit was now pro-
posed appeared to hirer at best to he unnecessary and
staiterflooo4.
Earl GREY thought, by what fell from the Noble
Seca-t ary of Stale,, he illt•si have ms-ipprehended"
the object of his motion ; it went to shew What he
allowed to be proper, the extent of the evil, and
which could not be satisfactorily shewn without an
account of the number 'of instances in which the
evil had taken place ; it was cot so much the amount
aS in the nature of the stint, and the multiplicity Of
oastaoces in wbiclethe offence had been committed.
It was said not to exceed 90001. as to nominal value,
one year w ith anoi her,. but without a specification
of the numbets, they could not tell whether forge-
-ries were committed in nine instances of 10001.
each, or in a thousand instances of 11. each. He had
no objettion to amend his motion as suggested, by
salting fora distinction of the notes under and above
51:1 and as to the objeetion of the Noble Earl, that
to punish the description of notes would be injuri-
ous, be thought it could not really be believed that
the piaditioners in forgery wanted any information
through the madium of that House. One great ob-
ject should be the diminution of opportunities for the
commission of the offence alluded to, as far as pos-
shale, for it made one's blood run cold to read the
fat% in the papers of the numbers brought to teial on
such charges, and sent away with verdicts of guilty—
Death.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL, inleply, contended that
every useful purpose would be answered from the
Accounts already ordered. He" was far from with-
holding any information really useful or necessary :
the real question to be considered was, whether the
evil complained of was progressively increasing or
not, and that would fully •appear by the Accounts
just ordered to be laid before the House.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE contended, that the
specification called for by his Noble Friend, was
necessary to elucidate that part of a very important
subject. The Noble Secretary seemed to have for-
got that before 1797, notes of IL and 21. were un-
known in the couney. The forgeries were said to
be chiefly for those low sums, and it was proper
they should know how far the evil arose from that
system which the expeaed Bill went to enforce and
to continue,
Earl. STAN HOPE hoped their Lordships would per-
alit bin to say a few words respelling the opinions
Jost declared upon /ea very important subject. He
believed-it to be fad, that the greater proportion of
the value of the forgeries has been in the small notes.
He did not approve of the motion as then worded;
it was liable to an objetlion urged by the Noble Se-
m:wry, as to its tending to .mislead. He saw no
reason, however, why les Noble Friend 'should not
call for a specification of all the classes of notes in
which forget les were committed. It was a topic to
which he believed he had given ten times the atten-
tion given to it by all the Members of Parliament
put together. He had suggested a mode which
would go to prevent forgeries at home ; but what was
greatly to be feared was the effes of foreign for-
gery, when these notes Should be put on a different
. looting ; the forgeries would be cioensive‘ 'and sys-
tematical. They recolleCted the forgeries of the
assignats. With respect to the Bill in its progress
'to that House, the great object with resped to it,
and the subject of, which it formed a part, was that
the holder of the note should receive the value it
was worth. Every thing that could, should be done
to prevent forgery and its consequences; and also
to render the person who held a note, certain that
he should receive that which was its value. I In that
view, the fullest inforMation should be afforded.—
One great means which led to the facility of forgery
was the wretched style of executing notes]; and it
had been said to him, jocosely no doubt, that they
ought not to hang those who forged, but the Bank
Directors for making the notes so liable to be
forged.
Earl GREY amended his motion, in the way sug-
gested by his Noble Friend ; and the question being
put thereon, their Lord Ships divided.
For the motion . . . tz
Ag:thist it . . . 27
Majority . .
On our re-admission to the House, the Clerk
was reading a petition presented by one of their
Lordships, from (as we could colli61) the Potteries
in Staffordshire against the Orders in Council.—Or-
dered to lie on the table.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE moved, that there be
laid before the House a Statement of the period at
which the Diretiorsof the Bank of England gave
up indemnifying the Holders of forged Notes
On this proposition sotnexonversation took place.
Lord HOLLAND expressed his surprise ihat Mi-
nisters seemed unwilling to acquiesce in piopositioris
of the kind until they had consulted rice Bank Di-
redors. The motion he thought necessary, and
adverted to the period, as long subsequent to the
restriction on the Bank. He noticed the circrim-
stance of a forged note he had brought some years
after that period, and which he had communicated
to the Bank as connected With asystent of forgery,
said to be then going on. He was offered indenini-
fication. But he could not avoid observing, that it
was to the disgrace of the country that the example
was set, not by individuals, but by the Government
itself, and it \was to the shame of the country that
the practiLe should be approved in the Tribunals, on
the ground of its being against the enemy of the
country.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that with nape& to
any specific proceeding of the Government of the
country at the time adverted to by the Noble Baron,
he certainly could not speak front any personal know-
ledge ; but they all knew, that when the circum-
stance had beets expressly referred to in that House—
it strongly denied and disclaimed by a Noble
Baron (we believe Lord Grenville) then holding a
high situation the Government, who denied that
such a fact had ever taken place. With respeet to
the idea held by the Noble Baron, of his 'aloneness
to consult those whose interests were so immediately
concerned, he bad to state, he felt it incumbent on
him, not wily in the case of the Bank of England,
but of any other -Public Body whose interests were
deeply implicated to endeavour to endeavour to learn
whether important objections were entertained,
and where these were communicated, he alwaysex-
eicised his own judgment how far such constituted
a tit ground for objection or argument in Parliamen-
tary discuSSiun.
Lord HOLLAND spoke in explanation, ; and after 4

, GNI, words frotri the Earl of Landerfiate, the_motion
was withdrawn.

AFrAIRS OF INDIA

zop:es of certain Cotninuttic'ations between the
141nrqt:isWelles!ey and other'Gy-ernors and Officers
of theCotripany in India, ami the Court. of Direc-
tors were; on the minions of the Eat] of Lauder-
dale ordered to be laid before the House.—He
then, in_ pursuance of what-passed on a former even-
ing moved,

" That there be laid before the House. Copies of Al Rules,
Orders, amt Regulations, for the good order and civil govern.
incur of the Settlements of the United Company trading to
India, or fort William, and other places and settlements
subottlinate thereto."

The EaQ•of BUCKINGHAMSHIR E disapproved of
the motion, as embracing too wide and extensive a
scope, and requiring a much greater length of time
than the Noble Earl seemed aware ot, to coiled and
prepare d.xurnents so voluminous and extensive.
It was very different from what he understood to
have been the objea of the Noble Earl a few days
ago, To a proposition, as he then conceived it, he
had no objection, and- in that view bad prepared
himself a motion on the subjea, which he begged
leave now to submit to the _consideration of the
House :—lt was for laying before their Lordships
-Copies of such Rules and Regulations as bad been
made in pursuance Of certain a6ls of his Majesty,
with respect to Europeans not in the Service of the
Company, resorting to, or resident in any of the set-
tlements in India. This would fully go to what,
in the views adverted to, he conceived to be the ob-
jects with respea to European residents in the Com-
pany's territories in India.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE contended, that no
Such difficulties would, obtain in the procuration of
the documents he moved for, as they were, under an
A& of Pailiament, -to be transmitted to the East
India House periodically. It was essential that
those who may be authorised- to trade to India,
should know the nature and extent of these regula-
tions, without which, the nature and value of what
they may acquire in the way of permisSon, would
be unknown to them; these were a species Of law
in India, framed under the authority ()fan Al,t and
which- were deeply connected with the trade to; and
in that oruntry ; and the information. his motion
went to convey, was, in his opinion, essentially ne-
cessary to the understanding the subject in some.of
its tuoit important bearings.
The Earls of BUCKING.HAMSHIRE and LAUDER-
DALE spoke respectirtly in explanation; and the
latter suggested the propriety of appointing a Com-
mittee to inspect the Books, and to 'report what these
rules and regulations were. _ .

Lord Viscount MELVILLE supported te objec-
tions of the Noble President of ibe Board of Cun-
t rout, and strongly disapproved of the. last expedient ;
from such a process no serviceable information, so
exren•ive and voluminous were the documents,
could be expe&ed not only in the present, but for
several Sessions of Parliament.

•
The Eat! of LAUDERDALE obser,ved, that the in-
formation in questitin was directed to be communi-,
cated annually, under an At of which the Noble
Viscount's father was the author.

After some further discussion, in which Earl Grey
shortly supported the arguments urged by his Noble
Fii,nd, and the Eat] of Lauderdale and Lord Vis-
count Me;vitle repeatedly spoke in explanation;
The Ea'l of LIVERPOOL observed, that the real
question before the House was,' whether a .motion
should.be adopted whiCh would answer every objed
of that originally proposed, and was not liable to
any of its onjections The second, he contended,
would produce every information necessary for the
purpose; it would put the House in possession ul
ail the rules and regulations made, or now; in force
in the Company's tenitories, .respecting all Europe-
ADS not attually in their service ; and it. would be-
crime a question, if a boon were Meant to beheld
out respelling a permission to trade, how far such
rules and regulations ought to subsist. The mo-
tion would bring before the House, under w hat re—
strithons of law and policy, Europeans are allowed
to reside in, and carry on their trade in
The question being put, the motion of the Earl
of LAUDERDALE wai negatived, and that of the
Earl of BUCKINGHAM/MIRE, carried without a di-
Vision.

The Bills upon the table were forwarded in their
respettive stages.
The Innkeepers' Allowances hill, and a few
others, were brought up from the Commons, and
read a first time.
AdjourLed till to-morrow. ,

HOUS4 OF COALVIONS.

TUESDAY, APRIL 14.

Mr. R. P. CAREW obtained leave to bring in a
Bill to facilitate and promote the Discharge of the
Duties of Surveyor of Highways and Turnpike goads
throughout England and Wales.
Lard G. L. Gowsa presente4 a Petition from the
Ch_ ina Manufacturers of Siatibrd, against the Orders
in Council.—Ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. KENRICK obtained leave to bring in a Bill to
amend the General Inclosure Aa. . He also brought
up the Report of Guldsmid's Deb; liquidaiion Bill.
Theßesolurions were agreed to, and the Bill order-
ed to be read a third time to=morrow. •

The Legal Quays Bill was read a third time and
passed.

Mr. LYGON, as Chairman of the Committee ap-
pointed to communicate to the Lords the disagree-
ment of the Commons to•une of their Amendments
to theLocalMilitia Bill, reported that the Lords had
agreed to a conference on the subject.
A Committee was them appointed to conduct the
conference, and zettred immediately.

On their return, Mr. LT GON informed the
House, that their Lordships had agieed to give up
the Atn'et4ment.
Loed Mit.ToN, on presenting a Petition from the
Clothiers of the West Riding cf Yorkshire, stated,
that the object of it was to complain against-the Or-
ders in Council. The petition► did not complain of
extravagant grievances, but of evils which were
£oberly an►d seriously felt.

Ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. ROSE moved for an Account of the Income
and Expenditure ot the British Museum. Also of
thr.: sums tequired to discharge the expenditure in
the year 1812, and of the number ot persons who
had been &Iraq* to it from May 1611, to
April

The motion was- agreed to, and the papers pre-
sented", and ordered to bN printed.
Mr.\VYNNe moved for an Account of the Amount
of the Laf,d Tax assessed on the several Counties ins
England aneWales.—Ordered;

Mr. HORN .& inoved for several pipers recating to
the circulatio:i of Bank of England notes for the last
twelve months, which wo-eordered. ' •

Mr. BARING gave notice that he would move on
Fridpy next for several Ch►i►ta paperi.

COLONEL WMAtION'SAPPOINTMENT.
Mr. W. WYNNE said, that when he first men-
tioned the appointment to the House, which he was
now about to nring under its notice, he little thought .
thaninwould have teen necessary for him to go so
much into detail,asupon further information he fonnd
himself obliged to. He had supposed,. in the firar
instance,
.that the motion for such papers as he was
now about to move fOr, would have been as much a
matter of course, as the ove which had been just
agreed to by the Ukase. He had always thought,
that when a new office (an office unknown before
to the •Constituijon, and only in existence under
,i:
peculiar circumstances, for he last tew years) was
created, and publicly avowed, it would be necas- .r,
sary to inform Parliament of whatnature it consisted, -'
what duties it embraced, and to what purposes it was
applicable. He never recolle&ed an instance where
a motion professing for its onjeat the attainment 'of
such information was refused. At present it -ap-
peared, on the authority of the Gazette, that Co-
lonel M`Mabon was . appointed- Private Secretary ;:
to his Royal; Highness the Prince Regent, acting ',..
on the part and in the behalf of his Majesty, but
no regular official notice whatever was gi% en of the
duties which he had to fulfil. -All that was known
at present wfts, that the situation was the same as
that "which had bean filled by Colonel . Tal'lor •:'
during the discharge of the executive functions by
.::.
his Majesty; but what the duties were we knew .!i
not. If they considered, they would find that' cir-
cumstances 1;
existed formerly which created a gieater .
necessity than appeared at- present to demand such e:
additional.assistatice. King William was not on;y
,e
the main spring of, the Government of hia time, but
the most a6live and scrutinizing observer of every
department, yet he-never had a Private Seeretarya--
When the Bruns w ick Family first came over, George
.the First was known to be a stranger to our language, . e
an assistance of this kind, therefore, was more ne-
ces,atry tohitn, yet he never had any. His present :i
Majesal,they all knew, was in the habit of paying
the Most constant attention to all the details of oe- a
sinesa, until the period of his unfortunate illness.—
From the expiration of the American war till 1793,
he had superintended the appointment of all coma :
missions, and a_number of his noes in the War Of
free at the present day, would testify with what ac-
~
curacy and minuteness. Yet he had never any pr -
rate secretary until, the period of his blindness,
which bronght him to the case of Colonel Taylor. ,
Indeed, a Secretary of Slate was, proputly Fpeaking,'
_.
his Majesty's secretary ; -so it was in the reign of '
King William, and in all the succeeding reigns
down .to the-unfortunate period Of his peseta Ma-
jesty's
blindness. Why, when the lloyal PcTOc- at
the bead of the Government laboured under ,tio in-
firmity,
could he not cArry on the business himself ?
Toe Sovereign might sign one warrant, authorizing.
the Commander in Chief to sign a certain nuerbine a ,
of Commissions enumerated in the vi arrant. He '
could not conceive what difficulty would arise from .i
this mode of proceeding, particularly as his Royal
Highness resided in London. If the office was '
similar to that of Colonel Taylor, he wished to a':
know whether the business. of the'Cabinet Mini-
sters
was to pass to his Royal Highness through any !I
third person ? if so, that Was in itself a matter of
such great consequence, as to call for serious in-
quiry. I;
it it was deemed necessary that there should. 3
be an interior and an exterior administration, then ,
the appointment of such a person might be a con-
venient step for the carrying or, of :the correspon-
dencebetween
the interior and exterior Cabinets..
The. House, he thought, was intitled to hate the.
instrument of Colonel
,M`Mahon's appointment
on the table. He did not mean to seal with,
any disrespect of the services. ofaColonel M'Ma-
hon, he was- sure he had acted faithfully, and was
entitled to: reward; but had the Prince Regent nu
other means of rewarding him than by the creation
of a new office ? As to his nomination to the Pt ity
Purse, he was sure theie could be no,objedion to it ;
and if the salary was not enough, he might have
been appointed Equerry, which would have madst,
up the deficiency. He should have preferred stating
those observations on a-subsequent motion after the
papers had been granted, but as. that could not be
done, he should move thattheres
uldbbeylawldhbicei
be-
fore the House acopv of aie instrument
his Royal Highee-s, acing on the part and in behalf .
of hii Majesty, had appointed the Right Hon. John
M`Mahon to be Lis Private Secretary. Also copies,.
of any notification to the Treasury on the sub.
je6f, and of any correspondence conneded .there-
with. , ~

Lord CASTLEREAGII said, the Hon. Gentleman.
had attempted to raise his motion to a degree of im-
portance it by ne means de.ervcd. . As be (Lord C.)
shoUld resist the produdiOn of the formal official,,.
docu,nent, which was necessary with no oilier viltw
than that of doing away the office' in question,. he
,should proceed to state the reasons upon e. h:ch
objedion restO, and the Hon. Gentleman having
thought it necessary to bring the appointinent
wi-
der the view of the House, he should submit the
grounds on which he conceived the appoirittnent to
stand. tie would admit'it was the duty of a Secre-
tary of State to take his Royal Highness's pleasure
On the different meastnes that arose, and that ha
performed no single fundion- for which Ministers
were not responsible; Was the constitution; If,
then, the Honourable Gentleman could fairly Mak*.
cut that the appointment of a Private Secretary had
any, the slightest tendency to remove the respoosi.
Why from Ministers, he certainly would have a
case to shew; which must be fatal to the appoint*
ment. Persuaded, however, as he was, that there
was no fundion embraced in the duties of a Prixate
Secretary, which could render him cansinutiOnally.
responsible, he ;did not see how any fun Lion em-
braced in that capacity could operate to remove the-
constitutional responsibility of Ministers. The rnere
circurnstance.of being a Privy Counsellor, was, he
helieVed,,a new objection, and the interpretation of
the oath into an obligation to obtrude advice perpe-
tually upon the Sovereign, if not new, was at. heist
extraordinary and violent. He supposed that whin
his Right Hon, Friend ordered the payment, h*

stated the reasons of the appointment ; end if no

form of oath was adMinistered to the Private Secre-
tary of the Crown, neither was there auy to the
Private Secretaries of the great Ministers of the
Crown, who were equally connected with the pub-
lic, through whose hands the same description of
papers passed, and whose office was equally confi-
dential. The present appointment was not that
Of a fourth Secretary of .Staie, but of -an assistant
to his Royal Highness. Pox his part he disclaimed
the idea of being exonerated in the srelallest degree
from his share in the responsibility of the Go-
vernment ; it was in fact nothing else but a re-
lief appointed by his Royal Highness to assist
him in carrying on the busineSs of the country.
This naturally brought him to the question, whether
the. office was necessary or unnecessary, and he.
• would allow, that if the necessity of it could not be
made out, the appointment could not be justified.
When they talked of King 'William and George the
1. and 11. they should remember, that the whole
system of the. Coun►ry was different, that business

was since accurnulated,and establishments increased,,
that our army then was but a pigmy army, that our

navy was.nothing in comparison with its present state,
and that' the whole population was not trained to
arms. At that time the Sovereign and the Ministers
too might have discharged their duties with greater
ease, for be night observe that Ministers were not
then in the habit of attending the House to such
late hours as modern practice rendered necessa-
ry. How,, under 'circumstances so dissimilar, any
parallel could be atterstipted to be dra cn, surprised
him. L•roking to all the existing circumstances,
could any one say that it would be possible for a
Monarch of this country to discharge all the manual
labour which would be necessary, without some
assistance of this kind ? He was confident, that if his
Itoyal Highness should determine to give up his
mind from murning till night, nut on the great con-
templative and dignified business of the Govern-
ment, but to the lower toil of a private Secretary,
to the mere manual labour of office, he never would
be able to discharge effectually all that would be re-
_ . .

quisite ; and the necessity, therefore, of the appoint-
ment as well as the constitutionality of it, appeare'd
to hitn to stand upon clear and unshaken grounds.
Ilhere was nothing in the appointment of Colonel
I\VNlalion that would make him responsible for any
ati ; and he would again repeat, that it would be
impossible for the Sovereign to undo-take the greater
and" more important functions of royalty, it he
should resolve tci apply himself to the more subor-
dinate tasks. Upon all these grounds, he.hoped the
Rouse would be satified that the Constitution was

•
pot entrenched, and that the refusal of the papers
'was not with a view to denying information, taut
to the repressing that ulteriortneasore, which he
Was persuaded the. House would not be disposed to
adopt.
Mr ELLIOT observed, that -the question before
the House was one of those in which the merits of
the individual wit° was the object of it, did not
come under consideration, and therefore in point of
faa the motion was direCted against-the appoint-
ment of a new office. With respect to the indivi,
deal, be had not so much acquaintance with him as
Other persons ha 4, but he had no hesitation in ad-
tbitting that lie \vas deserving of the appointment
from all t? at he had heard of his character. As to
the Illustrious Person conferring the appointment,
_it! must again state', that it was perfealy natural for
hite to be anxious to reward the services of a faith-
' Ital. and confidential servant, for a faithful and con-
fidential servant was in truth a faithful friend. To
reward such servants, therefore,. was in the cha-
racter of any person, in humbler life or in the more
dignified station of Royalty, a great and distinguish-
Tcl virtue. It was the genu,ne source of national,
itrength. There was no quality which could ema-
bate in the mind of a Prince, that could so strongly
%hew the charaeter of the person, and could fix him
zn the hearts of the people, as rewarding long tried
and steady' attachments. But in this instance his
uyal Highness had been unfortunate in his choice_
the reward. There was a marked disiinction
the cases of Colonel Taylor and the present. His
Vaiesty had never called for -assistance, until by the
aisqtation of Providence lie was deprived of the
tfiiy to assist himself. Now in the present
the Prince had none of those infirmities
w.rlieh prevented him from teansatling the bu-
t:fleas himself. Colonel Taylor was indubitably
e hand and eyes of the Sovereign, end it was due
t 0 him to state that he discharged- the duties of his
illation with integrity, 'prudence and -reserve.—
were was not the least shadow of imputation
tdinst his conduct. He had always thought the
;PPointment of that. Gentleman _a responsible one,
bki he [mist take blame to himself for not having
f.°l;lecled to it. Circunistances, however, had, called
and the reason he had not questioned-the le-
b4'itY of it was, that the situation of the Monarch
threw an air of sanaity about it, which prevented
i
b(11 from iaterfering—(Hear, hear ! from the Ali-
side)—that cheer, Mr. E. observed, for the
future would serve as a lesson not only to himself,
b rtlt, he trusted, 'Wall his Friends.—(Hear, hear!
jeated by the Opposition).—He hoped ,that %a hat-
Pet might he the situation of circumstances, deli-
ileac)? would not induce them again to yield to-any
PPointnient without due consideration of its con •
.4Nuelices. If the duties of the department wete
trea,, the House ought to be informed of it. Was
4'14 duiv of the Private Secretary to take' the sense
't)f .the Faecul;ye Government upon all matters of
°1 business, and ct;Dvey it to the different Officers
()I the Government ? Were the duties of these Of-
,cers so great, that they could not go through
i'i "e(ll3' If so., let them ask assistance, and let a fourth
pt.
"eretary be appointed, and he would vote for the
4PPointinent, and that he should be a Member of
Parliament. But in coming to that conclusion,' he
stopped in limine, because there was no case
h'ade out on which to decide. The Ministers
.were
rtind to sheer that there was much public busi,
"NI to transact for this private Secretary. If they
~°uld satisfy the House on that point, then private
""shess was no reason for the appointment, for the
b(
aa of folding up papers and putting them in
.e* did nut require the. aid cf. a Privy Counsel,.
Zr with a salary of 20001. a year. It was fair,
,
,"`erefote, to the individual, tl.at he should be
11Prise I of the fa& ; if he was" not so ap-.
I.li,cd, he was treated with gteat.iciustice.'; canting
''"111 whatever quarhr papers might come, he was
IVo I fiont the .31:uisterial side.)
l"e did not know the situation of the Un-
r Secretaries of State, of the Secretary of the

Treasury, and similar situations were Gazette% or
whether another office more i.nportant was, he
mead the Secretary to the Lord Lieu:en:lnt ot -Ire-
land. On these 'grounds he should object tv the
appointment, until information on tl Inch he coup
decide was before the House, and should therefore
vote for the motion of his Honourable and Learned
Friend.

'r The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER agreed
with the Right Honourable Gentlemen (Mr., Elliot)
that the question did not come under consideration
as personally affecting .the individual who was the
objed of it, but was to be considered on the grounds
of public expediency, and of public law. On these
grounds he shotild examine the question. The cha-
akier which the Right Honourable Gentleman had
given of Colonel M'Mahon, as an old and faithful
servant, was not more true than it was honourable
to the person on whom it was bestowed. But he
must•again state, that those circumstances would not
afford justification for the creation of a 'place which
in its nature was illegal And unconstitutional, for, so
the Right Honourable Gentleman had stated it to
be. The reward of faithful set vices was cotunien-
dable in every one—a proper attachment to any .
person for faithful services was correti, and augured
well of the person, whoever be might be, that con-
ferred a favour. But the Right Honourable Gentle-
man'a sentiments on this subject seemed to be re-
ceived by his friends with a something more than
met the eye. Did he mean to say that private at-•
tachments should be the ground of selection for pub-
lic services?---Was it constitutiooal doctrine to con-
tend, that private friendships. were tasupersede the
public interest ?.—Ditt he mean to insinuate that the
moment his Royal Highness succeeded to the Go-
vernment, he was 4lien to lead the head of the
party ?—lt that ,was his meaning when heaalked
about rewarding private friendships (tor that insi-
nuation was cheered), a sentiment more inimical
to the constitution could notbe uttered—it was con-
netted with, an aristrocratical confederacy, and
brought forth it) Supporeof constitutional principles
in the most extraordinary way he bad ever Ireard.-,--
If the Right Honourable Gentleman did nat .mean
any such insinuations, he must ask his parden for
the suppoaision. With respect to the great consti-
tutional question; the Hon. Gentlemen co'nsidered
themselves bound to stand forth as the champions of
that constitution,aand contend thaartie Sovereign on
the Throne was not entitlea,to have a Private Secre-
taiy.--The Right Hon. Geetlemau seemed to think,
too, that there was tio difficulty in grant itta the mo-
tion, conceiving that the appointment was illegal
and unconstitutional, and therefore called, for, the
paper, in order that the House might censure the
advisers of the .appointment. If the paper was to
famish the mere details of what Ate Private Secre-
tary should read, and what he should not read ;
what he should write, and what be should not
write, then a line of ditty was chalked oat, that the
House might be enabled to judge of the fad. But
the question was, whether this line of duty would
be so defined by the instrument, as to be. within the
description of a legal and constitutional office? If
it was-so, that would appear on the s:atement,_and
those who thought the appointment illegal, would
vote for the paper. BA there was no dispute about.
the fad, for the paper would not furnish an), evi-
tlence. The proper mode of treating the question,
was to take it up onahe il'egality of the appoint.
ment, with a view to famish evidence for ulterior
punishment. Now U was considered,
.by those ob..
Jeding to the appaintment, that it is an_ unconsti-
tutional b':cause it was a new office. But the
Hon. Gentleman would not deny the authority of
Queen Anne, who passed an Act recognizing the
appointment of new • offices, it necessary,wtao the
Crown. He should deny, however, that it was a
new office : the 'appointment of Coi• Taylor just
as illegal and unconstitutional as the present. When
the Right Honourable Gentleman took blame to
himself for not having objected to that appointment,
he (Mr. P.) had cheered him. He apprehended,
,that if the act was an unlawful and unconstitutional
one, those persons in power when Col. Taylor was
appointed, should have stated .their reasons then,
and not have remained silent. But he must con-
tend, that the authority of Parliament constituted
its legality. They did, not when in cffice conceive
it necessary to question the legality,' but now they
viewed it in a new light, and contended that they
were compelled to admit its legality under the
peculiar circumstances in watch 'they were
placed. The Right Honourable Gentleman had
maintained that the Private Secretary was the
organ of the'Executive. He must deny that asser-
tion. Col. M‘Mahon could not,in his official cape-
city cominunjcate ibe pleasure of the,Pi ince Regent
in any other way than by taking upon himself the
responsibility. How could that responsibility arise,
for the office was not a State office ?, it was merely
an office of accommodation and assistance Wattle
Sovereign; who could not perform the business
which he had to do without 'such assistance. The
Tnanagernent of the papers necessary for his Royal
Highness's examination was become laborious; they
came not merely from one office, but from all the
offices in the Government. When it was considered
the vast influx of papers which must be produced,
_for the consideration of the Prince Regent---asoine•
from their nature to be postponed, others immedi-
ately considered, and all arranged, the House would
see that it required considerable attention, and the
discharge of manual labour. The great mass of
papers was of itself a consideration for the appoint-
-merit. It had been sail that his Majesty fled done
the whole of the business for 40 years, laborious as
it was; that was true, and it was astonishing that
he was enabled to do it ; but the House would re-
coiled the' difference between George the Third
and the Prince Regent. His Majesty came to the
Throne at a time of life when he was peculiarly fit-
ted for his station ; he had all the vigour of youth,
and the' aptitude for business; years of attention
and labour induced,
,the habits of business; and
though, when he ascended the Throne, the labour
Was trifling in comparison, yet his habits were
early formed, and he was initiated into a facility of
disposing of business which grew with his years
What was the'case now ? The Prince Regent was
at an advanced period of life, not accustomed to
bthiness ; besides the. pressure was considerably
greater since the unfortunate malady which afflicted
our. beloved Sovereign. Now, with respec't to the
motion itself, he could not conceive, why it had been
brought forward, unless from a disposition to com-
plain, for the very introduttion of the tnotioo, on
their own snewing, had exhibijed a most extraor-

d;nary fa6l, the, absence of real and substantial
proof for the prodUCtion of the papers; for never
way there shewn a greater proof of poverty of com-
plaint; or the impossibility of attaching to it the
importance of a great constitutional question. It
,had been said, that the appointment of Colonel
AltiVlahon was-as the new Secretary of the,Cabinet
ibehind the Cabinet. What superior or over-ruling
influence, ot which 'so much had been heard, there
was behind the Throne, he did not know; but did
any one person actually believe that such influence
existed ? Was- Colonel M,'Mahon then that per-
son ?---.(No, no, front, the Opposition.) But it was'
said by the Gentlemen oppwite, that he was the
instrument to carry into etfet the wishes and plea-
sure of the Head of the Executive Government.—
Such assertion might be very well to turn a para-
graph in a newspaper, in order to keep alive the
impression unfavourable to Government, which at
all times Opposition are in the practice of making
against the existing Government. He trusted the
House Would not be disposed to see in the appoint-
ment any thing either illegal. or unconstitutional,.
and theretbre that they- would not accede to the
motion. •

Mr. ELLIOT made a few- observations in explana-
tion in respell to personal, friendships. • •
Mr. PONSONBY conceives that his Right Hon.
Friend (Mr. Elliott), in alluding to private 'friend-
ships, did not mean
..to say that the person exercis-
ing' die SoVereign Power was aduated in ctroOsing
his servants from that motive. 'He trusted such
.would never be the case in this 'country: He was
convinced that the Princeeßegent was incapaßle of
being swayed by any such motives in his, choice.
If any such advice wai,given, he knew that the
advisers would incur the'disfavour of him to whom
it was given. The choice of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man (Mr. Perceval) was a strong instance to the
contrary. If he were to judge as the case stood at
present, uninformed as'he 'was, he should say that
the apppointment was doubtful in a constitutional
point of view. If the nature of the Office described
by the Right Hon. Gentleman was as he had stated,
and all the official business is to pitss through the
private Secretary, then, in his opinion, within a
very short period in the history of this country, the
Private Secretary would become the Prime Minister.
Now, as to the office, it was true that his late Ma-
jesty employed Colonel Taylor because as he could
not, unfortunately, write himself, his inforrelation-
called for aid ; but was his Royal Highness incapa-
ble„ol-business ?' It had been said that the public
business was so much increased since the accession,
that it was impossible for the Sovereign to _discharge
it without assistance. - Did the Right Honourable
Gentleman forget when the King came to the
Throne, that there was a very great pressirre of busi-
ness, that the Country was in the midst'of a seten
years war ; that the foreign correspondence was
at that time five times greater than now ? -Yet
without the benefit of experience,. the youthful
Sovereign was able to transact all the busroess
of the nation. But it was evident, from what bad
been stated, that the office iwas to be a perma-
nent one. The Hotase would, upon reflection, see,
in what a situation future Monarchs might be
placed who might 'not be of mature age, and Inca-
panic ot judging. the Private Secretary
have no influence on the Government ? Would- not
a Sovereign rest him or .herself a little, upon the
advice of the Secretary ? Would not many of the
communications made to the other part ot the Go-
vernment from the Sovereign be the result of the
,opinions or wishes of the Secretary ? It was not in
the nature of things, but that it should be so, 'and
therefore he would care to be any thing but the
Mtuister of the Crown,. a person possessing the
greatest influence in ihe country. Much had been
said of exterior and interior Cabinets ; and the
Right Hon. Gentleman had said, that it was a kin\cl
of cant used by Opposition, to say that the servants
of the Crown were not chOSeu by the spontanemis
wish of the Sovereign, but by the influence of other
persons. This-might be the language of official
men, but .had the Right Honourable 'Gentleman
read elle History of England foil the last century ?
If he. had, would he ellen say there was no such
thing as secret influence ? Was it cant ? The Right
Hon. Gentlemen knew well it was not. For this
reason he wished to see the paperconstituting theap-
pointment. The Rt. Hon. Gent. had treated slight
the assertion of his Hon. Friend respecting the ob-
ligati"on of CO. M`Mehon as a Privy Counsellor to
give his advice to his' Sovereign ; but if he would re-
fled, he would not think the assertion so
The. Noble Lord hadialked of the necessity of get-
ting the Regent' Ilona under the load of papers
which covered his shoulders, like another Atlas ;
but if the Prince was that Atlas, lie 'was sure the
Colonel was not a Hercules, and he might be in the
situation of the Tile of the Lap-doss and the Cat,
and the Bowl of Milk—the Colonel might be suf-
forated under reams of official papers. But the
sobjed was too serious for ridtcule, and he should
vote for the motion of his -Hon, Friend.'

Mr. Secretary RYDER telt it iiecessat y to `rescue
his Right Honourable Friend from the species of
misconception which. the Right Honourable Gen-
tlen4nin had prat on his speech. He defended the
appointment, on the ground of precedent, for if it
was unconstitutional, so was the appointment.of
Colonel Taylor. The Right Hon. Secretary went
over the same grounds taken by his Right Hon.
Frienzls.

Mr. LAMB trusted the House would not forget. all
the old constitutional principles. The present was
a case in which censure was imputable to those per-
sons advising the appointment. From the JUdicial
department,- to the whole of the Ministerial depatt-
ments, the nui9fers were the Secretaries: it was
their duty to communicate with the Sovereign.—
What were the dutiek of his office ? It he was the
organ of communication from all the departments
01 the State, that circumstance must give him great
powers. The Hon. Gent. said that great 'dangers
might arise from entrusting to an °dicer of this de-
scriptiotk too much power ; his duty ought to be
defined. For might not he, if he had to yead the
papers which it was necessary for him to lay before.
the Sovereign, give his advice, and might not, that
advice sometimes have effeet ? He trusted, upon
Constitutional principles, that-an alteration of such
importance would not be hazatdeol without due con-
sideration. Amongst all,the bad signs of the times,
apathy to these appointments was the worst.-
Mr. CALCRAFT hoped that the apathy which the
Hon. Gentleman dreaded, did not , in reality exist,
for the_House.was periettly alive to the interests of

the country. He could not see any thing in the
state of things 'to cause alarm. There was the pre-
cedent of Colonel Taylor, who had filled the office
for seven years, not only without blame, but in the
most pratsew,rthy manner, and yet because a simi-
lar appointment was made, all these alarms were
created. He wished Gentlemen would exercise a
little common plain sense. What was done by C.l.
Taylor was to be done by Col. M'Mahon. He was
to transaa the busintss of arranging the pap ‘rs, but
not to detract t 1-roe. official responsibility, • How the
appointment conld-ne said to be unconstitutional he
did dot know. He saw no just grounds stated for ,
inducing the House to grant the motion, and should
therefore Vote against it.
Mr. WHITBREAD said this was indeed a new era,.
in which we are doomed to,lose the friends of our
early public life. Accustaned as he had been to
the voice of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Calcraft), sop-
ported as he had been by his opieions and hip vote,
.he should have been astooished when he came to the
House this night and heard him again, to find too
•that he had.quitted his early friendship, that-he had
hailed the new era. •He should have been deceived,
and before he entered the House, would have betted
any wager that hiS Hon. Friend, whom he had heard
so eloquent'on former occasions, was now
,support-
ing his old-and early friends ; but how much would;
he have been deceived ! There was, he said, no
analogy bet Ween the case of Col. Taylor and Col.
-M‘Mahon—the former was not a privy counsellor nor
a member of Parliament—he was introduced at a-
time when the infirmities of the 'king required as-
sistance. "A contrast had: been drawn as to the ha-
bits of one person at the head of the executive, and
the other. No such thing ; the Noble Lord had
introduced a good image into his speech, when de-
scribing the duties of the Officer, in saying that ,the
Colonel's duties were to dig the Regent from under
-a file of Papers. But then, the Regent was to con-
sult with the Colonel. Was it everin,tended that a
consultation should be held with Colonel Taylor ?---.
Was ke not 'the mere conduit of communication
between the Monarch and his Ministers ! Btu then
he had duties .of great importance to perform.--r
What were these great duties ? Why the giving
him power over the.fortnnes of then. If his situa-
tion was nothing more than as the Noble Lord term-
ed it, " the Seleaor of papers," that, was empower-
ing him with controul of a very high nature, for he
might recommend such persons as be chose ; lie
,might seleci such papers as he thought fit; M short
he was placed in the charaeler of a .responsible ad,
viser. If the faet is nut so, why was the public
burthened with an Officer holding a place of 20001.
a year, and perforiniug duties that a common scr•
rant might perform ) He denied that there had
been . any great accumulation -of Royal 'busi-
ness; and • alluding to the early friends of the
Prince, he obserived, that any insinuAtions re.
specting them, could not apply to him, as he had
not had the honour to be classed among ihern, and
of course disclaimed the right to be so called. It.
might be supposed, during the private lif of iheil-
his.tious individual to wh(iin he alluded, that there
were predilect;ons in his mind, because the grounds .
for such a supposition hari been recorded and au-
thetricated. But the moment that that private lifii
ceases}, Parliament and -the Ceunrry werehoued to
Consider the Regent as speaking only by his Mini-
sters. 'He hoped that the motion would be agreed
to, and that the Gentlemen opposite would lac
beaten on the diViiion.

Mr. WILBERFORCE declared,. that with one ex-
ception, there could not, in his opinion, be a more
unobjectionable appointment than tbat which was
the subjed of the present discussion. By the gene-
ral there was a greater weight of
busin6s on the, Sovereign at the present day, than
a: any former period. It any one voted against the
motion, except on the conviCtion that there had
been a great increase in public business, that per-
son's view of the subject was very different from
his. The situation of Private Secretary was not one
of 'responsibility, neither did it encroach on the
province of any Minister of the Crown. The Mi-
r isters of the Crown would, still be the legal and
constitutional organs. through which all the public
business' must be transaded ; and they would- be
liable to the same responsibility after this ap-
pointment as before it. The necessity of a
Private Secretary to the ,Prince was obvious.
As a precedent it, was not dangerous. It was indis-
pensable. Even his present Majesty, the most.la!
borious Prince who had ever filled the British Throne,
haJ, towards the letter part of his reign, been al-
most overwhelmed with public business. At the
same time, the publicity which the proceeding that
bad been adopted in preference gave to the appoint-
ment; was a kind of security against any secret. in-
fluence. As he was on the subject of secret in•
fluence, he would mention to the*House, that he
once had a conversation with a Noble Lord, now,
no more (Lord North), who, in a former part of his
life, had spoken of an influence behind tho
Throne, greater than the Throne itself; and that on
his questioning that Noble• Lord with iesped. to,his
then opinion on ti eexistence of such influence, his
Lordship said that he did not believe that any such
existed. He should have no• hesitation .in voting
against the motion, because to rote for it would be
to' vote for the.reversal of the appointment that had
been made.

Mr. WHITBREAD explairled.

Lord EOLLESTON E expressed his anxiety to know
the fundions of the Private Secretary to the Regent;
and contended that the appointment of Colonel
Taylor to be Private Secretary to his Majesty was
by no means a parallel case,.
Mr. MA It ft YATT observed, that many of our Com-
manders on Foreign Stations had no less than three
Private Secretaries, 'and that surely the Prince Re-
gent must stand in need of one: Considering this
to be a party, and not. a constitutional question, he
should certainly vote against the motion.
Mr. C. ADAMS contrasted the present question
with that on which the House had determined, not
to grant the salary to Colonel MsMa!)on as Pay-
master of the Widows Pensions, and defended the
consistency of those who, although they voted
against that grant,. would vote against the present
motion.

Mr. TIERNEY denied that there was Such an in 4
crease of public business pressing on the Regent, as
Wai asserted. He argued at some length in sup-
port of the motion, and implored those who -thought
the House had gained some popularity by refusin4 i J
assent to thu tortner appoinuneta of Col. M'Aliihon