The Sun.
London, England, 1824-03-27 00:00:00

JUSTICE.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL moved that the House
should resolve itself into a Committee, to consider of the com-
pensation proper to be granted to certain Officers in the Courts
of Justice, whose situations or emoluments would be taken '
away by the County Courts Bill.
The House having resolved itself into the Committee,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL called the attention of the
House to the claims of the parties entitled to compensation.
The Bill introduced -.by the Noble Lord promised to confer
great benefits on -the country, but these ought not to be realized
at the expense of individuals. Now, whether it might be
considered proper or not, it was a fact that the Citief_Jr.stiee
of the Court of King's Bench profited by the sale c.d the 9!"
flees to which he should call their attention. He believed this
to have been -aken into consideration at different periods when
the salaries of the other Judges were increased, and held it to
be the cause of the salary of the Chief Justice remaining the
same ate it had always been. The Clerk of the Court of King's
Bench was a very important Officer, anti the emoluments of the
situation amounted, he believed, t 07,0001. per annum. Shortly
after the late Lord Chief Justice of the King's Bench was pro-
moted to that situation the Clerk of the Court died. The ap-
pointment was with him. He was offered 80,000/. for the situa-
tion, but did-not accept it. The appointment he bestowed on
his son, and this, be believed, was nearly the whole of his
patrimony. He put it to the House if it would not be unjust
to pass a Bill which would deprive that individual of those;
benefits which his father had legally and properly intended to
secure to him. There were three Prothouotaries of the Court.
These officers were coeval with the existence of the Court
itself. Their situations had always been sold by the Chief
Justice, and the price, he believed, to be 10,0001. It was their
business to find clerks and officers, who regularly and person-
ally attended the Court. Now though on the first view it might
appear injurious that offices of this description should be sold,
he could state, from his own experience, that no offices could
have their duties discharged with more fidelity, punctuality,
and diligence. For the officers he had mentioned he claimed
compensation, as also for the Secondaries of the Court, who
were appointed by the Prothonotories. For the Master of
the King's Side in the Court of Exchequer, and for the
two senior •Attornies, he claimed compensation. From one
of these he had received a letter, which, if he could regu-
larly read it to the House, would, he was persuaded, induce
every one to agree to the claims. The writer was far advanced
in years, audit' the Bill - of the Noble Lord passed, it would
nearly extinguish the whole of his emoluments. For the Pro-
thonotorics of the Courts of Assize in Wales he claimed corn-
ilensation. He claimed for those who had purchased their
offices—who had a vested right and interest in them—who
were assessed to the land tax, and who had to maintain
extensive establishments connected with the Courts. He
claimed on the ground, that the Bill of the Noble Lord, taking
away from the practice of the Courts of King's Bench and
Cemnion Pleas, would diminish the emoluments of officers
who had purchased their situations with a view to the fees which
would arise from the whole business of those Courts. From
the best information he could obtain, one individual would
lose one thousand five hundred pounds by the passing of this
Bill. The country, as it would profit by the measure, was
bound, pro tanto, to compensate those who suffered by the
change. This he shewed to be perfectly conformable to the
recommendation of the Yinance Committee of 1798, which
partly founded itself on a former report made in the
(year 1740,
which had been signed by Lord Hardwick among otners. All
property depended upon law, freehold property as well as
any other. The question now then was what had been
the usual course. The principle for which he contended had
been recognized from the time of King William. At that pe-
riod writs of Capias piofide were discontinued, but the fee was
still paid though the writ never issued. In 1803, when an al-
teration was made. in the. practice of the Exchequer Court of
Ireland, the officers who suffered by the change were indem-
nified. The words of the preamble then read, might serve
for the present occasion. They were •these—" Whereas, by
the operation of an Act of Parliament The lawful fees and emo-
luments of the officers on the law side of the King's Exchequer
may be diminished, and whereas justice and reason, in conside-
ration of such diminution, require that full compensation shall
be made to the said officers in the said Court ; therefore be it
enacted, &c. &c. that compensation be granted, &c." He
would ask if this were not perfectly. consonant with the prin-
ciple for which he now contended. When the Southwark
Court of Requests, in which debts amounting to 2/., had-for- -
merly been recovered, was enabled to take cognizance of
debts amounting to 5/., the four Counsel of the Palace-yard
received 501. as compensation for the diminution of their prac-
tice and emoluments. In the same way, when the granting
of Crown leases was transferred to the Board of Works, com-
pensation had been made to the Officer (Lord W. Bentinck)
who suffered front the change. The Honourable Gentleman
recapitulated the arguments and facts which he had urged.—
He understood that the writ of subpoena in the Court of Ex-
chequer would be entirely. superseded by the Bill, so as to re-
duce the income of one gentleman from seven or eight hundred
a year to two hundred, and he was seventy-five years of age.—
He thought that where such injury was done, the House was
bound to grant. compensation. He should therefore move a
Resolution, which he thought could not but receive the support
of the Noble Lord. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman moved
a Resolution, declaring the opinion of the Committee, that
his Majesty should be entitled to grant an annual sum out of
the Consolidated Fund, by way of compensation, for any defi-
ciency of lawful fees and emoluments that may arise out of the
Act, to various_Officere of the Court of Exchequer, King's
Bench, and Common Pleas.
,Lord'ALTHORP said, lie had heard nothing in the speech

of the lion. and Learned Gentleman which convinced him that
compensation was required in the present case. He did not
admit the application of the precedents which had been quoted,
and he coiltl not consent to bring an expence upon the public,
and to set such a precedent as would be hereafter built upon
the case. Notwithstanding that it might endanger the fate of
the Bill, he should oppose the resolutions of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman ; he should therefore move an amendment
expressing his sentiments, but should not himself divide the
Committeeupon it. The Noble Lord then moved an amendment,
expressing the opinion of the House, that there was no precedent
in which compensation has been granted to Officers in Westmin-
.ster Hall, upon the establishment of a. Court for the recovery
of Small Debts ; and that to establish such a precedent was in-
expedient, because it would impose upon the House the neces-
sity of laying fresh burthens upon the people whenever any
improvements were made in the administration of justice.
Mr. 31. A. TAYLOR said that he was anxious for the re-
form which the Bill would unquestionably introduce in the
administration of justice, but that lie conld not think of invad-
ing the freehold fights of persons, holding patent offices with-
out granting compensation. In doing justice to the public, he
would not consent to do an injustice to individuals.—( Hear !)
—lie would limit the granting of compensation to offices which
were strictly freehold. There was an office in the Court of
Durham which was also entitled to relief, because the Bill
would entirely destroy the business which created its emolu=
ments. It was his intention to move an amendment to include
that office.

Mr. LITTLETON suPPorted the original resolution, and
argued that the principle of granting compensation to the
holders of such offices could never be Justly disallowed. The
House should recollect that the late
Lord Chief Justice of the
Court of King's Bench placed so strong a reliance on the assur-
ance of Commissions and Committees, that such patent offices
should be held sacred, as to leave scarcely any other property
to his son for the support of those honours and distinctions
which he had so
justly acquired.
should be adopted by the House, which took away the fees of
If any measure, therefore
the Chief Clerk, let them look at the situation in which Lord
Ellenborough would be placed, He objected to the system
which allowed patent offices as
gladly see any Hon. Member bring forward a measure for their
abolition. much as any man, and would
Mr. FOSTER contended; that the compensation granted to
persons who had vested interest in the Offices in the Courts of
Law in Ireland, found a precedent, after which it was impos-
sible to refuse it in the 'present case.
Sir G. ROSE spoke in favour of the principle of compensa-
tion, and mentioned the case of an office which a high legal
opinion had declared to be a pateat one, where the profits would
be reduced one-fourth by the operation of this Bill. The House
could not in justice consent to such an interference with such a
description of property.
Mr. R. SMITH thought this was an instance in which it
was still more imperative upon the House to grant compensa-
tion than where an office was abolished altogether. In the lat-
ter case, the individuals might turn their talents and their in-
dustry to other pursuits; but here they would be stuck in their
offices while their emoluments were taken away.
Mr. BA N KES said, that the Hon. Member for Staffordshire
did not seem to be aware of the difficulty of removing the
System which existed with regard to such offices as these. At
.different times in his life he had endeavoured to introduce mea-
sures upon the subject, but never could succeed, owing to the
opposition which he encountered from the heads of the diffe-
rent Courts. He thought they should be premature in voting
compensation until they knew what losses might arise to the
parties in consequence of the Bill. He therefore thought it
would be better to reserve the question of compensation until
the Act began to operate, and then an application could be
made to Parliament to identify the parties for the actual loss
sustained.—(Hear, hear I)
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL admitted the force of the
last observation of the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just
then sat down. But he considered that they were now rather
discussing the question of whether compensation should be
granted, than that of the extent to which it should be carried.
—He agreed with the Noble Lord, that they ought not to be
stopped in any necessary reform by considerations of this na-
ture. That House should be the asylum of Reform where
abuse existed, but it should also be a sanctuary for the pro-
tectio:s of property. The whole of the offices named as entitled
to compensation were held by patent, and ought to be held as
sacred as any other description of property. He should sup-
port the resolution of his Hon. and Learned Friend, but did
not consider that it bound him in any respect as to the amount
or extent of compensation to be hereafter granted.
Mr. ABERCROMBV supported the amendment, and con-
tended, that if the principle of compensation were admitted in
the case of these officers, it could not in justice be denied to
toseb7=e;;;ra=2ft7zomnnewastrirwe.oullilesutilh'eoruginhtthtehire prac-
tice
the observation of the Hon. Member
prin-
ciple at all times objectionable, but as to granting compensa-
tion
perfectly unanswerable.
forcaotr the present nwtatsiiirine, his
opinion
g
Mr. S YKES said, he thought the measure one likely to pro-
duce the neatest advantages to the country ; yet, that if it
were to be clogged with this- expence of compensation, he
doubted whether it was expedient to pass it. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman had estimated the amount at 5,0001 a
year; but it was quite evident that they knew not where it
would stop, for his lion. Friend, the Member for Durham had
started up with another claim from an officer in a local juris-
diction,, which the Bon. and Learned Gentleman had not taken
into his account. N" it was well known that these local and
special jurisdictions abounded in many parts of the country,
and therefore such claims would have no limit.
net consider himself pledged, in voting
for the
n
the SMlTHResolution,aid
to any thing further than granting com-
pensation where there Was a Just and satisfactory claim
made out.
The ATTORNEVs("LNERA I. wished to explain his in-
tention upon this point- This was a resolution upon which he
intended to frame a clauseto be proposed in a Committee on
the Bill, and without which no such clause could be proposed.
He pledged himself to frame such a clause as should meet the
for certain speculative losses, but for computing the annual in-
come
approbation
arisingo
tof thepa Committee—not r
tin for giving a sum of money
officers,
and for allowing compensa-
tion to that amount.

Mr.-HUME wished
to know whether the compensation was
to be extended to persons
haying purchased the profits arising
from certain offices. If the did not allow such claims, he
considered that they were
claims at all. _ not doing equal justice to admit any
Lord MILTON said
that the course proposed to be adopted
looked like a bargain between the House and the holders of
certain offices, to allow the passing of a measure which was for
the advantage of the public. He did not think this a fit course
to take. It was quite clear that if
allowedtfiolreythimpediments to stop them, they could never
proceed to any reform of this nature without encountering them
la every step. For the" reasons he should support the Amend-
e nus
es
such ICommons
Amend-
ment of his Noble Friend.

pensations were to extend
---Icir.ABERCROM BY Wished to ask how long these corn-
, because if they were not to .be
continued beyond the lives of- the present holders, then the
Chief Justice would suffer a
correspondent loss in the sale or
patronages of the offices.
The ATTi)RNEY-GEN'ERAL stated his intention to pro-
pose compensation during the lives of persons holding ;the
offices, and after that, that no compensation should be allowed.
It had been stated on the other side that further claims might be
urged, and that justice demanded a consideration of them all.—
He had considered them all, and having taken tha most urgent
cases where direct loss would arise, he had come to the House
on their behalf to pray for compensation.
After a few words from. Sir J. 'ThEvrrowr, a MEKBEn,
whose name we could not learn; and Sir F. OMMANNEY, the
amendment was put, and negatived without a division.
Upon the original Resolution being put,
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR moved an amendment for including
the office of the ." County Clerk of the County Palatine of the
County of Durham."
- Several ineffectual attempts, on the part of the Hon. Member
to make the Chairman understand the proper recurrence of the
word " county" occasioned great laughter in the House.
Mr. SYKES observed that the name of the Gentleman hold..
in - the office was Paris—perhaps it was the " County" Paris.
A laugh.)
ord ALTHORP said, that if there were any claim to com-
pensation, this Gentleman was certainly entitled to it, as the
Bill would certainly destroy the fees of his office.
The Amendment was then put and carried. -
Sir F. OMMANNEY moved a further amendment, for in-
cluding the office of Receiver or. Treasurer of his Majesty's
Court of King's Bench.
The ATTORNEYLGENERAL said the only objection he
could have to the amendment was, that he did not know there
was such an office in existence. Perhaps the Hon. Member
could acquaint them with its -duties, and the name of the Gen-
tleman holding it. - '
Sir F. OAINIANEY said he might have made a-mistake in
the office, but the name of the Gentleman was Edge. He was
convinced the Attorney-General knew whom he meant.
After a few words from Mr. N. Calvert, Sir F. Omtnaney,
.Sir F. Blake, and Mr. F. Palmer, the motion of Sir F. Omma-
ney was negatived without a division, and the original Resolu-
tion was agreed to.
The House then resumed, and the Report was ordered to be
received on Monday.
SMALL, DEBTS BILL. . .

On the motion of Lord ALTIIORP the House resolved into a
Committee on the County Courts Bill. The house being in a
Committee, _

Lord A I;THORP said that, on consideration, he thought
that the appointment of Barristers to act under this Bill should

he in the Crown, and not the Lord Lieutenant of the County;
and he moved an amendment of the necessary clause ac-
cordingly.
M. SYKES thought the appointment ought to be in the
Judges of Assize or the Sheriff.
Mr. Secretary PEEL, on the other hand, thought the ap-
pointment should be placed in a responsible quarter. He
thought the whole country might be divided into Circuits, and
the appOintment being thus on a more limited scale, would be
more likely to ensure persons of sufficient ability to perform the
duties

Lord ALTHORP said, he thought it might bemore advise-
able to have an appointment .for each county, as originally pro-
posed.

After a few words from the Attorney-General, Mr. R. Smith,
Mr. Secretayy Peel, Mr. a Bennet, Lord Eastnor, and Mr.
Sykes,
111 r. FIOBHOUSE said, that, however he might object to the
giving additional patronage to the Crown, he still thought it
better to suppact the present Bill. As to any danger of the
patronage affecting the independence of the Bar, he was sorry
to say that he did not think that independence could be placed
in any danger. But he would rather give the patronage to the
Lord Lieutenant than to the Crown in the first instance.
Mr. BERNAL objected to the appointment of any persons
but practising Barristers.
Mr. Secretary PEEL suggested that the matter should stand
over for further consideration.

Lord ALTHORP assented to this, and the clause was post.
poned.
On the next clause, respecting the business at the Quarter
_ _ _

---14i.hSTCOURT objected to-the loading of the Magistrates
at Sessions with any additional business.
After a few words from Mr. WYNN, Mr. R. Surer', Mr.
CRIFPS, MT. WILSON, MT. WELLS, Lord ALTHORP, and
Mr. Secretary PEEL, the clause was agreed to.
On the Clause giving power to the Courts to hold Pleas of
Trover and Detinue
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, objected to this Clause, as
these actions often included very important questions.
Mr. R. SMITH supported the clause.
Mr. HOBHOUSE complained that the laying of the venues
in distant counties where the defendants resided, would mate-
rially inconvenience the citizens of Westminstex.—He should
move an amendment in the clause to remedy this.
After a few words from Mr. LOCKHART and other Members,
the clause was agred to.
On the suggestion of the ATTORNEY-GENERAL, the Chair-
man reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on
Monday.
The second reading of the Aliens' Bill was postponed to
Tuesday.