The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-12 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONOON, 11,11.1 DAY MORNING. FEBRUARY 12, isl 7.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 11.
The LORD Ch ANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool
sack at Five o'clock.

CHELSEA PENSIONERS' BILL.

On the motion of the Marquis of LANSDOWNE,
tt.is Bill was rend a third time. and passed.

DUTIES ON RUN].

The Earl of RADNOI' presented numerous
from Cupar, Fife, P,rth, and other places in Scotland,
against, the propo,ed al,erations in rho dutie-: on rum.

POOR-LAW SETTLEMENT.

The NOBLE EARL also pretented a pAihon from th:4
city of Old Strum praying their Ir:rd:Bips to amend the
law relmiug to the Poor-law S.-ttlemtnt Act.

POOR REMOVAL BILL.

Lord BLANEY pre:wn:ed a petition trt:m ..lonagban
against the I'oor Removal Bill.
lIYDROPATHIC TREATMENT.

Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition, signed by
Mr. Rowland, a 6urron, stating that he 114 d heard with
surprise that a verdict of man-laughter had been re-
turned on a coroner's inquest ugairna a gentleman for
treating a patient under :he hydropathic treatment.
The NOBLE LORD also presented a p•Aition, signed
by a Air. of the same nature, (as we understood).

Mr. M. GIBSON replied that the Bill was in prepa-
ration, and some legal provisions had been subKmirted to
the c,in,ideration of the Lord Chancellor. lie ha►d every
hope that at no distant period the Bill would be sub-
tnitted to the House.
WASTE LANDS IRELAND.

Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN gtve notice that, to-morrow,
he would ft'dc a (iurstion of the Noble Lord aL the head
of th,.. Governmeat, as to whether, in the event of
a company L‘ing formed for the reclamation of the
waste lands of Ireland, the Noble Lord would fa-
cilitate the acquisition of the powers by which it was
proposed to efT, et that object.
Dr. BOWRING put off his motion relative to public
itecou:.t. till this day fortnight.
Mr. CHRISIIE also postponel hit moti,an for an in-
quiry into the li-oiversities ut Oxford and Cambridge
till the same day.
NOTICES OF MOTION.

Mr. WADDINGTON gave notice ot his intention to
trine in a Bill for the r, gulAtion of the lqvr relating to
small tenements.

Lord COURTNEY gave notice of his intention to
more an unwudnaent to the Poor Relief Bill in
Cotnwittee.

HIE WELLINGTON STATUE.

Ms. CRAVEN BERKELEY gave notice that, on
Monday next, he would ask the Noble Lord at the head
of the Wte As and Forests wl:et her any, communication
had been made to the Government by the committee of
the Welib-glen statue with respect t • the removal of
the scaftelding round the statue; and, if it was to be
removed, at whose expense the removal was to take
place?
Is_.rd CASTLEREAGH presented a petition from a
place in the county of Down against extending relief to
the able-bodied poor in Ireland ; as, in the opinion of
the petitioners, it would tend to increase improvident
marriages, and lead to the confiscation of the property
of the country. They also prayed that if such a mea,ure
should be approved of by the House, that the extension
of such relief should be optional with the board of
guardians.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN presented a petition from the
fathers, mothers, brothers, and sisters of those who had
fallen victims to the famine in Newport, county Mayo,
praying that immediate measures be taken to stay the
mortality among the ke..ll,tys.us
Mr. MlLES:prbstjr4 ti Pettltion from Shepton Mallet,
against the PotiFß•inoTalAdi of Just session. Also a
petition from. bristoOn, favour of the reduction of the
duty on tea.
stsTENtsillOUßS' BILL.
Lord JOLINRUSSELL presented several petitions
from mill-owners gull Otbeis, in favour of this Bill.
1.U1511,-- MEASURES.
Mr. ROEBWOR 'Wished to ask the Noble Lord a
question. Those .SPere`now before the House four Bills
respecting Ireland. One they might consider to have
be-n disposedsg---41e meant the Bill for the immediate
relief of the degitute poor of Ireland, which had sone
through Comm4tee, and which might, therefore, be con-
sidered to have received the consent of that House.
Then there wait the Bill to indemnify the Government
for their depaeture from the Irish Labour Act of last
year. Besides These Bills there were the Poor-law Bill
and the Bill fesegraesieg lotdas of money to the owners
of land in Ireland. What he wished to know was,
whether the Nor-law Bill would proceed pari passu
with the landlords' Bill, or whether he proposed to
carry them separately?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, in reply to the ques-
tien of the Honourable Gentleman, he had to inform
him that it was the intention of the Government that
the two last Bills—the Poor-levy Bill, and the Bill for
lending money to the proprietors of land, should proceed
together. He could not say the particular days ou which
they would be taken, or whether one would be taken
before the other, but he should wish to have them read a
third time almost simultaneously by the House.—(Hear.)
He was anxious to have them read on days so
closely following each other, that they might be sent up
to the other House of Parliament, as nearly as possible
at the same tune.—(Hear.) He considered that the one
measure should be decided at the same time as the other
—(lie tr, hear) —for if the one failed in its object, it
could not prove otherwise than detrimental to the taw.

several properties. And what was the evil con-
sequei ce of toe introduction of these atiddle men ?
W hy, another evil of almost c (pal magnitude
—thst of subdivision. Then there was another
evil, that of con-acre. These middle mon let houses to
the poor people without any land, and these people were
therefore obliged to take land for the sake of the poor
people, and the consequence of this was the increased
population of the country, the note drainage of estates,
tow wsgue, which could neither support the men nor
their families, bad hour s, and general distress, and
the still further result of a tax on the lands
of England. But there were evil coesequences in
another way, for whilst the poor people were starving
they were absolutely sending corn out of the country,
to the extent of too inilliens and a half of quarters. He
found by the returns that in the first six months of
1840, the exports Of cern from Ireland amounted to
1.776,000 quarters, while the imports 1,1-* thi. Government
am: ,unted to o•:ly 118,000 quarters during the same period.
The gentlemen did not return to the p— plc to give
profitable employment, and the result \yes that the pro-
prietor did not employ the people—the farmers did net
employ the people, and the occupiers did net employ the
people, and the people did not work for themselves because
they bad not the proper remuneration for their labour.
Tle re could be no doubt that the want of security for the
tenant with regard to their lends was a feeble source of
misery to the people. There were two counties, one in
the south, end another in the north of Ireland, between
which he would mane a comparison—he referred to the
counties of Down and Limerick, and in one of those, the
distressed condition of the people arose entirely from the
small holdings having no security for their tenure
The number of farmers in Down, holding front
one to five acres, was 14,000, and in Limerick
it was only 7,000. The number of farms in Down,
from 5 to 15 am a in extent was 11,000, and in Lime-
rick the farms of the same description amounted to
7,000 The number ef farms over 30 acres in Down
was 15,000, and in Limerick 300, and yet in Limerick
the presentment amounted to 186,000, and in Down to
2.976. Farms were more suodivided in Down than in
Limerick, and yet it was rcore prosperous, as, by the
cestom of the country there was a proper security to the
tenant fur any improvement he might make in his lands.
The only way to elevate the condition of the people of
In land, was b, securing them a compensation for any
improvement they mask make. There was a prevalent
feeling in certain querters that smit'l lettings should he
dune away with; that no one should be the farmer of
land unless he had held the plough. But how
could they ever expect the labourers to rise unless
there were different sizes of farms. In the county of
Down the benefit of small lettings had proved to be
most beneficial. The tenant right for which he con-
tended was such, that the holder of lend was not re
quired to give up possession without rect lying from the
proprietor the value of the improvements he had
wade. lie could also sell the improvements to
any tenant that might tbllow. What would
England and Scotland do in the harvest season,
if it were not for the Irish labourer? lle was no
advocate for small holdings as they existed in some parts
of Ireland. He was no admirer of cettar tenants
but he did maintain that a considerable degree of the
prosperity of the north of Ireland depended on the
division of land into small but reasonably-sized farms.
—(llear.) With reference to the system of mid-
dlemen, he held that it was one which destroyed all
confidence between the landlord and tenant, which
repressed all improvement, and was a fruitful cause of
the miseries of Ireland. No security was given by the
middleman to the tenant, and he could not claim one
from the landlord as the middleman stood between them.
Unless they passed a law for the i eprovement of land.
lord and tenant, it would be of little use to pass a law
for the relief of the destitute pour of that country; and
unless there was such a law passed, it would be
uttrrly useless to do anything she, and there would
be an end to all iinprevioneet, and an entire loss
of all the labour aed the expense which had
been incurr, il, Ile did say that there was a greater
evil than that of the absentee landlords, for he
could say, from his personal knowli dge, that
the properties of many of the absentee landlords
were in is tar better condition than those of the resident
landlords. The people were better housed, better fed,
and in a better condition on those estates. It was said
by the Irish latborils, that if the rates were levied that
they would nevtr be paid, but, :f the poor people were
unable to pay the rates, why did not the landlords pit)
tile rates themselves. It they did so, then would they ob-
tain the good-will of the people of this country', and %aukd
be held worthy of the money which had been centributed,
and the assistance which had been rendered by this
country. He del not wish te say one word that would
be of ive to the Irish landlords• but in the course of
bringing this sub'ect ben,re the House, he challenged them
to throw tiff the responsibility which their position imposed
lie was thankful to the House for the indulgence which
it had shown to him. He trusted that the landed
proprietors would not shrink from their responsibility.
lie hoped that the Noble Lord at the head
of the Government would give him a pledge that some
amendment of the law of landlerd and tenant would be
effected.—( Hear, hear.)
trui
uict
witted the hi
silltuihene.se he hoped that he would tell
him that such a measure was one of those which he
intended to tntroduee.
Sir 1). NORREYS said that unless it could be made
the interest of the landlords to give security to their
tenants, it would be wholly useless to expect any move•
ment on their part to Effect what was so much -desired.
In order to induce the landlords to give leases
he would take away the stamp duties, and he
thought also that it was absolutely necessary that
till local taxation should be thrown upon
the landlords, where there were not leases for at
least twenty or thirty years. On this subject, be did
think it would be of some interest to the House to
give its attention to the opinion of a foreigner, who had
probably observed Ireland, and had written ett
knew
the Ireland than any other person, and who probably
De Beaumont, wits thought the uncertainty of tenure
in Ireland was the main-spring of most of the evils that
the condition of Ireland better. He referred to Mr.
afflicted it.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. TurrE then addr, seed the House, but was for
some time inaudible, from the confusion which prevailed.
He was firmly persuaded that no benefit would accrufeatou
Ireland till they had generally a resident, instead
asser-
tion which had been made by some Hon- Memb'rwell
that House, that the property of absentees
was
asFrum
absentee, proprietary. He altogether denied thco i ,
managed as the estates of the resident gentry.
experience he knew this was not the case.
*ons of the
of the House very shortly to the observations
Honourable Member for Rochdale. He gave credit
Lord CASTLEREAGH wished to call the attention
'o the Hetiourable Men her for the best inten-
tions, but he might be permitted to g
that the improvements in the comity to
he had the honour to belong were increasing. which".hilse
which was gratifying to those interested in
the tenantry experienced a freedom from
whatdistress
ould
—in the welfare of the coantry,
beg to say, in one word, why He
he
for
not support the resolution of the Hon. Member e t,,„
Rochdale. Hun. Gentlemen in that House "se they
much accustomed to look on Ireland Ua n
,s, i the
would upon a county, and to entertain
county
opitiion that whatever measure would suit
thatof Ireland.
would be equelly suitable for the whole
~,,,,,,,_.
II i in. Gentlemen were nor per b ap, a ware that theitT;ewii't
ut agriculture were widelt- different in
re ulo the
parts of the country. Were the mel"u care
Honourable Metnber for It chdale, therefore,greatest
teed in that House, it would involve lie
mischief to the landed property the
trusted that without a leg eon in, ;the
improvements,
which
were
goiag that the reiations
north, would extend into the south, and the
0 Dante would
between the proprietors of the soil and t
be teirrisd out it a ere rit of liberates .
result. ion of the
Colonel CONNOLLY objected to the
theforce of law,
Hon. Member, because, while it did not carte
.ri
interests and
it was sufficiently important to disturb
"istirtgof the country
arraiigements. He ',relieved that in the IP the system was
with which the last speaker was connected
tenant rights
carried oat by his Noble Father of recopolh..
. d made any im-
by making allowances to those tenants we
the landlords and
isiaintivtehat
nctaohcteitimitraya.t.
provements. Novo at the present moment,,h each ether, and
he thought therefore, that it would be b !lhe on. Member
a law to unsettle that uoderstanding•
i
tend to propel the
tenants were on the best understanding. Tepoliej
seemed to think that it woulic.ile (
Colonel Connolly )
improvement of Ireland; but
different consequence
to interpose
believed that it would have a very
be
should oppose the
in that country, and for that
_n
would produce a good effect.
tide that no general resolution _
d detain the Hsou..e but a very
Mr. LABOUCIIERE
resolutions, and he trusted
wouh t if he decided to oppose the
few moments, and he trusted
the
eon.
i.i Member for Rochdale
tnnowieeeed that the subject was one
t consider that he acted from any
attention of the House, and that he had
tirteba4°tnthe House would de-
w acceptanceel l
w or
th yo fot If i et.
hree solu tio,
Mr. S. Crawford would
of the question in the way in which
exhibiteddisrespect. a g
rHe He t quitekn ew 1 . g
es to the House. He chd not know
Member to deviate from the course
ted. Had he adopted this course,
hwehabtandadsaink
which he had formerly a P
t 0 bring in a Bill, he was prepared to
and had moved for
,tacteeovertiment, that he should have evinced
say, on the part of to.
troduction of such a rneaeire. He did
no objection to the
, •Ihn, sarne course bad not been adopted now
see the reason weYe s but he could not help suspecting that
as on former occasion r
were particularly injudicious.
deft these resolutions for becoming the
the Hon. Member
general resolutions were passed on pars
intended
with the Hon. Member for Donegal
basis of a law.
but in the present state of Ireland
titular emergencies,
effectedupon his holding. Now
resolutions such
h., "ho put two alternatives. He said with
The Hon.
thatlreland, the House could take one of two courses.
respect to
,e a permanency of tenure of the lendbl
They could either give
they could give him compensation
. for
held to the tenant, or
had •
(Col. Connolly )1-tileibatr
he
the improvement which
thought that it was at all times '
he ( :Ur. Labouchere)
before the House and lnadvi.
sable to put two courseshe must say
resolutions '
that the terms in which these
_.n
e.
Towere expressed, were
in the extreme vague autoslS it
hingeve permanency of
ether
tenure to the tenant w situg er :g the princiles of
but to the principle of the law of property ; compensation to
the tenant, he conceived the House was, though not in fact,
already committed.
He thought that he should do wrong to
•
anticipate the discussion which would _ 'eke place when the
i
measures were to be introduced. It they interfered,
they should adopt the principle of interference with
caution and due deliberation, and they should take especial care
that they shonld not shake the rights of property, which he
held to be the corner-stone, in everi, civilised part of the
world, of civilisation and prosperity
s• but it might be right to
interfere in such a manner as would place the tenant in a se-
curer and more satisfactory situation. He agreed with his
Hen. Friend that if he would be able to accomplish
such an object, he would confer a lasting benefit upon the
country, and tend to her present. and future benefit. Such a
measure, conferring such advantages, er•eild be a suitable ac-
companiment et those which her M,jesty's Government
thought proper to introduce. Holding these views, he did not
think it necessary to trouble the House with any further re-
marks. When the subject would be brought forward by the
Government, he would then have an oppertunity of stating his
opinions.
Mr. FITZ STEPLIEN FRENCH said that the tenant right
was a mess unfair and xithathievoua practice, uutair to the land-
he'd and unfair to the tenant ltimselc; the incoming teuitet bad
to pay inure than twenty yeats' pticciaa,; for life r:,;:it of pus- ,
session from year to year. In fact, he had to pay a sum which I

ought to obtain him the fee-simple of the land. The conse-
quence was, that he came there a pauper without capital to in-
vest in its cultivation.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN wished to know when the Go-
vernment proposed to introduce any Bill on the PUbj, ct re-
ferred to in the resolutions proposed by the Hon. Member for
Rochdale. The Bill was much called for, and it would be
better, perhaps, if the Governmert would name some par icu-
lar peri 4.
Mr. L A BOUCHERE—It depends upon the progress made
with the other measures before the House. He hoped to be
enabled to introduce the measure before Easter.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said that the reason he brought for-
ward the resolution was, that at the close of last session the
Noble Lord said that a Bill would be prepared by Government
early this session on the sub,e•lit. lie was disappointed in that
expectation, as the Bill was not brought forward among the
other measures proposed by Government. He did not wish to
take the matter out of the hands of Government, but now, on
withdrawing the resolution, he Ehould give notice that at some
future period he should a,k for leave to bring in a Bill on the
subject.
The resolutions were then withdrawn.
COMMONS INCLOSURE ACT.

Mr. AGLIONBY moved for leave to bring in a Bill fur•
ther to amend " the Acts to facilitate the Inclosure and Im-
provement of Commons," by providing that all waste or
common lands, allotted by virtue of these Acts, shall be held
as freehold, and shall be allotted as such, without reference to
the tenure of the ancient lands in respect of which such allot-
ments shall be made. He would only occupy the House a few
minutes while Fe explained the objects of the Bill, to the in-
troduction of which he trusted there would be no Opposition.
Its object was to amend the 94th section of the Commons Its-
closure Act of last session, in older to facilitate the improve-
ments of lands. The object of the Act of last year was to
enable enclosures of commons to be made for the expense of
25/. or 3t11., which formerly cost from 6001. to 7001.
The clause he referred to interfered materially with
the operation of the Act, as it enacted that
in no ease shall any land, enclosed under the Act, be let on
any tenure but that of the old allotments. Under the system
that prevailed is the neighbourhood where he resided, the en-
closed allotments were made freehold instead of copyhold, and
he wished the same provision to be enacted in the present Act.
He would now moved for leave to bring in the Bill..
The motion was agreed to.
IRISH POOR-RAI ES.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD moved for leave to bring in a Bill
for better receiving the payment of Irish Poor-rates He
proposed by this Bill that the landlords rate should be levied
separately from that of the tenant. And the same power to
enforce payment as the 6th and 7th Vic., gave for enforcing
payment of tenants' rates. In the case of non-resident land-
holders, he proposed, should the rates not be paii!, that the
Court of Chancery or Exchequer should have power to appoint
a receiver. and enforce payment in that way.
The motion was seconded by Mr. WILLIAMS, and leave
was given to bring in the Bill.
IRISH DISTRESS.
_

Mr. C. O'BRIEN moved for a copy of a letter, dated the
4th day of December, 1846, from the Board of Works, ad-
dressed to Captain Wynne. dirocting an investigation of charges
contained in the annexed letter from George Westropp to the
said board, res,,ec-ing partiality and misconduct to the Lis•
cannor Relief Committee; also, of the said George Westropp's
letter, and of the correspondence which took place between
Captain Wynne and Mr. Westropp on the subject. —Also, for
a copy of Captain Wynne's report to the Board of Works, as
the result of the investigation held by him, pursuant to the
board's letter, on the 17th of December, ; and also a copy
of Mr. O'Brien'o letter to the secretary of the board,
requesting a copy of the said report, Also, a cop:,
of the letter written by the Right Honourable Henry La-
bouchere to the Board of Works, dated the sth dai of
October, 1846, on the subject of reproductive works, &c.—
Copy of the presentment made thereunder at the extraordinary
Session, held at Corefon, for the barony of Inchiquin, ;n the
county of Clare, on the 30th day of November, 1846.—Copy of
the presentment made under the same letter at the extraor-
dinary Sessions held at Ennistymen on the 4 h day of Decem-
ber 1846. for the barony of Corconcrae, in the county of Clan..
—Copy of the Tr asury Minute under which insp. ctors of
Public works, or of lists of labourers, were appointed to carry
out the objects of the Act 9 and lit Victoria, c. 107.—Copies
of all such instructions ior the guidance of the said inspectors,
arid in explanation of their duties and responsibilities, as may
have been issued by the Treasury, the Irish Government, or
the Board of Works in Ireland.—Lists of all the said inspec-
tors now or lately employed in Ireland; specifying the salary
and allowances paid to each inspector; and stating by whom he
had been appointed.—List of the men employed upon the said
public works in the baronies in the said county of Clan., in
charge of Captain Wynne, woo were struck off the list of la-
bourers by the .aid inspector; specifying the name and place of
abode of each person so struck off, and the cause al-
leged by the said inspector for so striking him
off, and the names of the persons so struck off he lists as afore-
said who had been subsequently reinsta,ed —List of the several
relief committees in the county of Clare of which Captain
Wynne took charge ; specifying how often he visited each for
the revision of lists, and the date of each visit.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had
not the least objection to give all these pap-rs, but there would
be considerable difUcuity in giving the names of all the men
discharged from the public works. They were upwards of
9,700, and to give their names would make rather a long list.
At all events, however, be had not the least objection to give
even the names, but it would take a considerable time to make
up the list.
Mr. C. O'BRIEN was understood to say that it was neces-
sary, fer the vindication of his character, that all the returns
should b • given as he had moved for them. A charge had been
made by Captain Wynne that a body of men who had been em-
ployed upon the Board of Works had meditated assassinating
some of the Government officers, but he was unprepared to
prove, by the aid of these returns, that such an intention
never had any existence, except it was in the mind of Captain
Wynne himself. He considered that Captain Wynne had done
wrong in causing the rejection of certain presentments in a
barony in the county of Clare.
Mr. L A BOUCHERE sincerely regretted that any question
of a personal nature should be mixed up with these returns.
The Honourable Gentleman opposite had complained of the
Board of Works rejecting a certain presentment. It was true
they did so, and, in his opinion, they acted perfectly right.
The presentment which was made by the Honourable Gentle-
man and others was fur the advancement of a sum of money
for the improvement of private estates, and in his opinion tho
board would have acted most culpably had they allowed it to
pass.—( Hear, hear.) Capt. Wynne, he thought, had been
unjustly attacked, and Government would be highly censurable
if they did not defend the gallant officer who had energetically
and perseveringly performed duties of an important and diffi ult
character, under the most painful and trying circumstances.—
( Hear, hear. )
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said it would appear that the
Hon. Gentleman was desirous of clearing his character with
these returns, and he thcught it would be much better to
strike out that part of the return which would require three
months to collect, and then OA, returns themselves might be
before them in ten days.
Mr. C O'BRIEN was about to explain, but, being called
to order, he resumed his seat.

Mr. B. OSBORNE thought the Hon. Gentleman ought to
be beard. No doubt the Hon. Gentleman had risen to explain
an important matterork s h
ad m connectedade a
nw
accusationhim sul f a g
aAi
nns
to II ihci
me r
to
thete effect, that hotf Works
he had urged on a mob to assassinate him, and
he thought in justice the Hon. Gentleman ought to be heat d,
because, if he had been guilty of that charge, then the Hon.
Gentleman was not fit to have a seat iii that House, or any
other house.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.)
After a few words from Mr. C. O'BRIEN,
Mr. GRATTAN thought the Hon. Secretary for Ireland
ought to have stated that upon inquiry having been made into
the conduct of the Honourable Member, they were
fully exonerated from all the charges brought against them by
the officers of the Board of Works. He thought those officers
travelled out of their duty in making charges against trust
proprietors ; their duty was to attempt to stave off the distress
of the country, and not to injure the reputation of Hon. Mem-
bers. The Hon. Alernber's property at Liscannor was a per-
fect model of good management, and the tenan-ry the most
comfortable and contented of nay in Ireland, and it was very
hard for them to have such charges brought against them. He
hoped the House would not refuse the returns moved fur by the
Hon. Member.

The SPEAKER then put the motion ; which,
Atter a few worth front Alt% C. O'BRIEN and Major MAC-
NAMARA, which were totally inaudible in the gallery, the
motion was agreed to.
COMMISSIONERS OF RAILWAYS' BILL.
Mr. STBUTT said that it would be in the recollection of
the House that a BM was passed appointing a Board of Rail-
way Commissioners, and that it was understood that a mea-
sure would be let t oduced in this session for the regulation of
the railwas business before that board; that Bill he was now
prepared to introduce, and would briefly call the attention of
the House to the matter of the provisions of that Bill. The
measure was divided into two parts—the first related to
he preliminary proceedings required before bringing the Bill
before the Parliament ; th second part referred to those rail-
ways which had already received the sanction of Parliament.
The first alteration proposed to be made was with reterence to
the proofs of the standing orders. These alterations were not
proposed to be made entirely by the measure he was about
to introduce. A portion of them would be so modified, but it
was proposed that the House should have the liberty to regu-
late its own proceedings by their own standing orders. The
first measure contemplated by the Act was out relating to the
surveys of the intended railways which the various c‘ mpanies
were now obliged to complete before bringing in the Bill. An
anomalous custom had for some time existed, requiring certain
plans and sections to be deposited with the House which could
not be obtained without a direct violat on of law, and
latterly the trespasses committed, in order to procure
plans and surveys, had emits' contlets between the
landowners and the different companies, several of
which had been brought under the consideration of
the courts of law. This evil it was now proposed to
remedy, but it would be obviously unjust however to grant
large powers to these companies, except some protection were
also afforded to the landowners, by giving them an easy and
ready mode of obtaining compensation for any damage which
their property might sustain by the persons employed to obtain
the surveys It was proposed, therefore, that before the
tpro-
moters of any railway Bill should be authorised to go upon the
land to obtain the surveys, they should apply to the Commis-
sioners of Railways, and deposit with them such a turn as shall
be considered
to he property
give compensation to the landowner for any damage that might
r
propertyient in the opinion of the Commissioners to
prrso.motUerpsoonfdethpeosietoinmgpathhiys
sum
sehnatellrwb
from
rom the Commissioners to
iuet hp
authorised
tnh et
hC Commissioners,
lma nmfdbri
ssoysmiiaon ntwhegareurs
re:
asu
tntrihtvoeen ;
and, after they had so
• n to the proprietor or landowner ;
com-
pensation shall be give
willing to afford such
and in case the company should benotr
s shoald have the such
compensation, power,entered, should any damage arise to the property, full
compensation, then the Commisstiohne
placed in their hands
by they might think fitting out is
The next alteration pro-
posedby the promoters of the company.
to
' • increased facilities those proprietors
was one for giving
upon having the parties before them,
theems,utmo award such dam e•
from the pro )11e:ors of land,
Great difficulties had arisen
able to distinguishl by the plans
farmers, and others, not being
in what manner their
and sections deposited with the
now House,proposed that stakes should
of land whose property was affected by the proposed railway.
property s. as affected. It wash w
the direction in which the
be driven into the ground,
proposed
or viaduct, what
some mark to show, in case of an
carried,eni and also the depth
height it was proposed to be..
of the proposed tunnels.
the position
of cuttings wtiere any, and
..
' t was, that of local inquiry,
a principle which the
The next point
was a
'Member for Montrose
line would pass, the width os fowtheg railway, and also
Committee, of which the Hon..
In ordinary cases, the
member, strongly recommended.
deposited, when it would
rail-
way until the plans and sections were
in the course of the
be too late to suggest any improvementietor of land had gone to the
line. In many cases the
dprpoporuted out to them a line that
promoters of railways.
1 and pointed out to them a line that
woutd riot so injuriouslY affect 'his interest, but the only answer
would not so injuriousdy
as, that. they did not know of it before,
that he usualiy obtaine
late ''sv and there were then but two courses
land-
owner was not aware of the course of the intended line of
but that it WAS too
oll;
now,
to submit to the injury, or
left (Ter' to the landowner—either
opposition to the Bill in Committee, :hereby
himself and the Committee a most enormous
entailing both upon .
under such circumstances, were
d the Committee,
expense, an
they .
yr.u.t. oass the Bill. not wit;hs'aisding 'ha
amaaelled to ea).
the •r sanction to the meat: ,
' 'astice it did, or refuse ..
great itii -
bt, a line touch red -:-,,d tar the inter. - s
which might, perhaps,
biic It was now proposed, that after the line w.s
of the pu •
marked out upon the around the railway commissioner should
risk the chance of an

- -
send down a competent officer to the spot, who should state, by
public advertisement or otherwise, the time at which he should
arrive at different points along the line, for the purpose of re-
ceiving the suggestions of the landowners with reference to the
proposed railway. If the promoters of the Bill should choose
to adopt those variations, they may be at liberty to in-
elude i hem in their line without- making t public report
of plans and sections. If the promoters, however, declined to
adopt those suggestions, it was then proposed that the Railway
Cemmissioners should have the power, should they deem those
restrictions advisable, to authorise those persons to deposit the
plans and sections of such variation as they might propose, aad
also be empowered to bring them before the Committee ap-
pointed to decide upon the merits of the Bill, and to order or
refuse compliance with such variations. By the adoption of
this measure much inconvenience, time, and expense would be
soared. Then with reference to the proofs before standing
orders, at present conducted before two examiners, Messrs!
May and Smith, appointed by that House in the last
session of Parliament, he thought that in future sessions,
that it would be necessary that the proofs of the standing orders
should be revised by the Railway Commissioners themselves,
or officers under their supervision. At present the only mode
of testing the accuracy of the plans and sections deposited with
the House was by means of the opposition of the opponents to
the measure. Numerics Bills had been allowed to pass the
standing orders, in which the grossest inaccuracies were evi-
(le it to the Committees, who ha,i no power, however, of testing
them. It was now proposed that the officer sent down by the
Railway Commissioners to insprer, the proposed line should be
&Cowed to make his report upon the proof of the standing
orders, with reference to the deposited plans and sec-
tions. The next object contemplated by the proposed
Bill referred to the duty of the Commissioners. In
the Bill passed in the last session of Parliament, ap-
pointing the Board of Railway Commissioners, it was arranged
that the Commissioners should report to the House upon the
Railway Bills brought before them. It was necessary that
large powers should be given to them authorizing them to
examine persons before themselves or officers appointed by
them, with reference to the objections to the intended line of
railway, and also as to the mode of entering upon the lands of
the proprietors. He did not propose, indeed he thought it
better that counsel should not be allowed to be heard or to

examine witnesses before the Commissioners on behalf of any
party.—( Cheers.) The effect of admitting them would be
prolong the proceeiines to such an extent that it would he
absolutely impossible for the C,onimissioners to get through
the amount of business brought before them.--1 Cheers. )
Great benefits would also result from the examination of the
engineers and other witnesses, by impartial persons. The en-
gineers supporting or opposing the scheme, weuld be examined
infinitely sooner, much cheap-r. and even more to the purpose,
by an impartial engineer. than by calling in all the expensive
machinery of agents and counsel.—(Cheers.) It was pro-
posed that the Railway Commissioners should have the power
to report to the House upon all those subjects which were at
present decided upon and reported by Committees of the
House, referring to the amount of tolls or fares, the engineer-
ing nature of the line, the amount of capital required for the
construction of the railway, the number of shares, and the
powers of borrowing money to be granted to the company.
He thought that this report would be of great use to the
Cormnittee appointed to consider the merits of the Bill, as a
great deal of unnecessary and useless inquiry would thereby be
av&dr d. A question might arise as to how far the report of the
Commissioners should have weight, and he proposed to regu-
late the authority which it should have, not by the
Bill, but by the standing orders of the House. At the same
time he would mention, that in all matters relating to
engineering and surveying, the report of the Commissioners
should be held to be prima facie conclusive on any point that
might he raised, and he believed that this would be the means
of saving the Committee a great deal of trouble, and the parties
a great deal of expense. He said prima facie conclusive, be-
cause questions might arise where additional information would
be absolutely necessary, and if so, he would advise that the
Committee should, in such cases, report to the House that this
was required, and that instructions should be given to the Com-
missioners to furnish it. With regard to questions of fact,
which might be the subject of dispute, he proposed that either
party might complain, and have the Bill referred back to the
Commissioners, and if the comtilaint shonid turn out unfounded
that the parties so applying should bear the expenses
Flis object in introducing this provision, was to prevent frivo-
lous objections. With regard to fares and tolls, this was a sub-
ject which was the occasion of frequent difficulties before the
Committees formerly appointed to consider railway Bills. The
parties who appeared before them in opposition to the schemes
had no interest in this matter, and no party represented the in-
terests of the public. The Committee themselves had no in-
formation as to what the charges were in other parts of the
country, or on other railways, and consequently no data to
guide them in coming to a decision. The Commissioners,
therefore. who would have all this information, would be in a
position to render the most essential service to the Committees
on this point. There was also a subject of very great impor-
tance to which he would now refer—he meant the raising of
capital. borrowing mosey, amalgamating with and leasing other
lines of railway. The Hon. Member for Coventry, who hap-
pened to be Chairman of a Committee, had some time since
called the attenti'in of the House to the subject in consequence
of a very objectionable case of this nature coming before his
Committee; and in the report which he presented to the Home
it was suggested that some general regulation far this subject
should be adopted. By the regulation .nowsproposed the sug-
gestion then made would be carried into effect : one point had
been strongly urged upon him not only by seme railway pro-
prietors, but by some parties who represented the public, which
was, that the Commissioners should retain in their power
a veto upon all proposed railways. He gave .that point great
consideration, and he was bound to say that he could not con-
cur in it. Let him suppose that they retained it with respect
to those bills which had not any merit. The power would be
of no use whatever, as these Bills would fall of themselves)
to the ground. Suppose, then, that they etercised their veto
freely on other Bills, it appeared to him "that they should be
assuming the functions of Parliament ; and, looking to the
circumstances of this country, and considering the feelings of
the people, he doubted whether a board so constituted would
be approved of. There was another question urged upon
them, namely, whether powers should be granted to future
companies in perpetuityor fir a term of years. The later prac-
tice prevailed in France, but he wished.. to observe that
the railways in that country stood in a different position from
their railways, for they were laid out sod surveyed. and a large
portion of the works executed by Government. So that the
railway proprietors stood nearly in the relation of occupying
tenants under the Government. If they were now, for the
first time, to exercise the power of permitting the construction
of railways, it might be a question for consideration as to how
they should proceed, but they were differently situated.
Almost all the great lines had been constructed and granted in
perpetuity ; and the question now was, how they should act
with future companies—whether powers should be
granted in perpetuity, or for a term of years. He
was afraid that if they adopted the latter course
they would excite a feeling of jealousy, and cause an inquiry in
other ways which it would not compensate. By imposieg such
a restriction, it might be the means of sacrificing more import-
ant objects, and he did not, therefore, think it proper for the
Commissioners to have such a power. With regard to limiting
the rate of interest on the dividends of railway companies, he
thought that if :hey proposed a restriction on the interest, in-
stead of inducing economy it would cause extravagance ; for,
by the present restriction, numerous situations were filled, and
unnecessary expenditure created, which would be avoided if no
limitation existed. Besides, he believed that this would
be beginning at the wrong end, as a means to
economy. They should begin by regulating the
fares and tolls tto bo charged, and by seeing that the public
obtained Lair accommodation at a fair price. He came now to
the second part of the subject—the fares and tolls. With
respect to them, he proposed that the power of fixing them
should be granted for a term of years. The fares and tolls that
might new be fair might cease to be so in a few years, from
altered circumstances ; and the period he thought of proposing
was ten years. He did not mean to say that at the expiration
of that time they should be thrown open for Parliament to
lower them to any rates it might please, but he thought it right
that. the power should be given to revise them, and to bring them
to the same state as when they were first imposed. The object
by such an arrangement, was to act fairly towards the public
at the end of this period, as altered circumstances might render
necessary. Another great question now arose as to existing
railway companies which had received their Bills, not subject
to this alteration. There was rho another class of Acts not
so subject, but the companies who promotes them had lately,
when applying for new powers, made them amenable to any
alteration that might be proposed. This course had already
been taken with regard to cheap trains by the Hon. Member
for Tarnworth. With regard to that class of railway companies,
he proposed to make it a condition, it they came to Parliament
for an extension of powers, that the power of limiting the tolls
on their main line, to addition to the branch line or extensions,
should also be conceded. In that case the question would
be set at rest, as far as they were concerned, in the same way
as if the whole railway Bill had been brought forward for the
first time. There might be some railway, not in the last
category ; but it, was proposeds with respect to all railways.
that the power of revision of. fares and tolls should be vested in
Parliament in the way he.bad -described, end 'that they should
continue to keep it in their bands. Another alteration he pro-
posed was, that when any change was to he made by any rail-
way company in the tolls and fares, that due notice of it should
be given to the COmmissioners on Railways and the public, as
great inconvenience had reaultrd from this omission ; and such
an alteration would be prodpcti,ve of no injury either to the
company or to the ptibljces. He also proposed that the com-
pany should give their
,icesons to .the commissioners for
the change, as _they might furnish useful suggestions for
the commissioners, when making their report on this subject to
Parliament. In making these observations he had no inten-
tion to reflect en the great railway interests. As far as he
knew, it was by increasing their traffic and accommodating the
public that they'esotild be promoting their 'owiradvantage, and
he believed that with many of them the a ishes of the commis-
sionet s would be anticipated by the companies themselves. He
hoped and believed that this would be the case, but that did
net make it the less necessary that the public should have
some better security, and the Commissioners would not be doing
their duty to the public if they dot Lot -ee that seine such control
be established. It would be also for the benefit of the railway
companies themselves ; for suppose three ...tit of four companies
agreed to adopt a reduced system of tares and tolls, and the
fourth refused to submit to any reduction ; it was obvious that
the public would have a right to complain, and the other three
companies would be robbed by the railway company who
took advantage of the increased traffic on their railways in
consequence of the reduced rates. He thought it right, there-
fore, to retain the power of revising the fares and tolis every
ten years. With regard to the charges to the Post-office for
the conveyance of the mails, he thought that the system
of arbitration now adopted should be changed, arid that
distinct and definite charges should be made for this service.
The measures which he proposed on this point of the subject
were these—that the Commissioners should, in concert with
the Post-office authorities, require the railway companies to
furnish the iates at which they would carry the
b mthejelsand
that the scales of charges should be reported on r
Com-
missioners in the same way as they proposed to do with respect
to fares and tolls. But, as the circumstances might vary, they
had no objection to limit the period, for which the companies
should be compelled to carrh
email
mails to
was a very five years. The
next point, namely, the punctuality of trains,
im-
portant one. He thought it was one ou which both the publi-
and the railway companies were
hadeg much capital invested
equally interested. He hac
heard from gentleman who
in railways, that their local traffic constituted a
very important part of their receipts ; certainly the quantity of
local traffic depended very much on speed and punctuality, but
at the same time, it must be obvious that it was a difficult
question to deal with, and it was impossible that the Legisla.
ture could pretend to take measures to force companies to
arrive at stated places at stated hours. They could only be
brought to make the trains run punctually by bringing pub-
licity and public opinion to bear upon their proceediegs
in
this respect. It was proposed, however, by the Bill, that all
railway companies should be required to keep suspended at
such stations as the Commissioners might direct a list of the
arrival and departure of every trsin. He believed this
ordinarily done for their own benefit, so that notwas
m
be imposed upon the
cuocmh
paadndi
ei
'lona' troule!e would
s
or upon their officers ; and it was also pro-
posed that, for the benefit of the public as well
as of the companies, that these time lists should be sus-
pended in a situation where the public might see them, and
where they might check them; and also that, after a certten
time, they should he forty sided to the Commissioners, and that
they 1,1 annual report to Parliament of the speed
of the rdin,4 throughout the country, calling the eaten.
• :se ~f I' ia' 'it the :,unctuality or want ot punctuality us
the aifferent trains run by the different companies, and their
influence upon the safety of the public. There was anther

'•

point with respect to cheap trains—there were many other points,
of minor importance, on which it was not necessary for him to
detain the House, as they would be found in the Bill, and be
open to discus ion in Commit tee. The House was probably aware
that the law with respect to cheap trains was this--That
railway companies were required to run at least one train a
day for the cotiveeence of persons, at an expense of not more
than Id. a mile, in carriages where they would be protected
from the weather, and which might be approved by the Com-
missioners; and that they should not travel less titan twelve
miles an hour. Any further interference might be objected to
on the ground that the companies bad fulfilled and would
fulfil the provisions of this Act, by travelling some
parts of the journey at the rate of twenty or thirty
miles an hour, and by compelling the passengers
to wait at some of the stations for other trains, yet
completeirg the whole journey at the average rate of twelve
miles an hour. Now, he did not think that was a fair way to
proceed, and that it was opposed to the intention of the Legis-
lature; and, therefore, by the Bill it was proposed not only to
take the time of starting, but the time of stopping and starting
from the different stations.—(Hear.) Another point was the
number of passergers. The Commissioners at present had
powers with respect to the rates to be paid by those parties, but
! they had no rower aver the number of passengers to be eon-
: ve:ed by the trains. He proposed that the number
of passengers to be carried, should be affixed in-
side the carriages, and that certain penalties should be
imposed, on any infraction of the rule. Also when the trains
travelled at night, that there should be lights in the carriages.
He
came now to another question—_namely, the disputes be-
tween Railway Companies,. He would exemplify the diffi-
culty of adjusting these disputes by two extracts from
evidence given before Committees last session. Mr. Hawk-
show, the engineer of the Leeds and Manchester Railway,
stated, in reply to a question from the Hors. Member for Mon-
trose (Mr. Hume), with respect to the utility of the existing
board, that in some cases it might not act very advantageously,
but with respect to stisputes between companies which
formed links in one great chain, that it would
be a most essential and useful tribunal. He
found that .11r. Glyn, a Member of th,t House, and the
Chairman of the Nur. h Western Railway, entertained a simi-
lar view. He said insear.ces had occurred of one company re-
fusing to put on thi d c ass trains to meet the third class trains
run by anther company. in roneexien with it; and that great
inconvenience had resoled iii consequence." This, for in-
staece, might occur—suile•se tyro eompetiog lines, meeting at
a given point, refused to gi. e accommodation to each other
wit`, respect to these trains, it was otr ously intim Fever of the
one company to deprive the other of the advantages which it
wished to effect, by limiting the time of the starting of the
trains, so that the public would derive ne advantage.
Now that subject he thought deserved the most serious con-
sideration of the corarnissioreos. The law at present was,
that the Commissioners, where the public safety was concerned,
might make such arrangements as they might think p oper to
promote it. Now, the Commissioners thought it advisable to
adhere to the word, of the Act which gave them this power,
with this addition, that where, from the bad management of
the company, considerable inconvenience was caused to the
public by the want of a proper underhending between two or
more companies, who were compelled to use their lines in
common, that on the complaint of one company, the
Commissioners should take steps te remove those inconveniences.
Thin, with respect to the distil, bancea which often took place
in connexion with the construction of railways, there was a
difference in the state of the law on this subject. In Scotland,
where parties congregated together and creates' a disturbance
the sheriff had the power to decide whether a policeman, to be
paid by the company, should be employed or riot. In England
It rested with the magistrates. ow he proposed that if any
two justices of the peace stated, by a report to the Commis-
sioners, that the employ meet of police was necessary for the
protection of the public pease, that the Commissioners might
erder the employment of a certain number of police
at the cost of the company. There were, ,as he had said
minor points, which would be discussed in Committee, and
with which he would not trouble the House—(Hear, hear)—
such as the conveyance of military, military stores, &c., on
which he would not detain the House.—( Hear.) There was
one, however, which lie consieered a ver important one—that
it was proposed by the Bill, that the Commissioners should
have power to call for returns from the different railway com-
panies, and if they thought fit, to be at liberty to verify the in-
formation which they might thus furnish, if they thought such
a course Necessary. He did think this absolutely necessary,
as it was impossible that all the facts that were
required from time to time, could be obtained.
by re-urns voted by the Legislature. On a former evening,
the Hon. and Gallant Member for Lincoln (Colonel Sibthorp)
proposed that the Bill should contain a provision for giving
parties, who might be injured, or their friends, if they were
killed, to recover compensation ; but perhaps the Hon. Gentle-
men was not aware that a great alteration was made in the law
on the subject, by the introduction of a Bill last session by
Lord Campbell. Before that Act was passed, a person, who
was injured, or his relatives, if he were killed by the mis-
conduct or neglect of a company, had no right
of action, but this Act gave that power. He
was not inclined to propose any alteration or
addition for two reasons—first, because he thought it was right,
before any alterations were made, to know how the Act worked,
and, secondly, if further legislation was necessary, that it
ought to be general, and not confined to accidents caused by
railways, but in other ways.— ( Hear, hear.) He had now
gone into the main provisions of the Bill. He did not at all
pretend to propose it as a complete measure • in fact, it must
be obvious that a measure of that kind could' not be complete
and that increased experience might lead them subsequently to
adopt improvements which that experience might suggest; but
he did think, if it received the favourable consideration of Par-
liament, that it would be found a useful amendment of the
present law, and that it would be found, at the same time, most
beneficial to the public, without being injurious to the real
interests of railway proprietors.—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. AG LIONBY said, during the fourteen or fifteen years
he had occupied a seat in that House, he never heard a more
clear or satisfactory statement than that delivered by the Hon.
Gentleman who had just resumed his seat; and he thought that
he might congratulate the House and the public that the Hon.
Gentleman had commenced has official duties by introducing
questions of so much importance ti the consideration of the
House.—( Hear. hear.) As one of the public, he felt a sincere
interest in the welfare of railways ; and he spoke without bias,
as he did not hold a share in one of them—but he had an inte-
rest, as one of the public, in seeing them all well and efficiently
conducted, so that they might afford great advantages to the
public. He rose to make a suggestion which be was almost in-
clined to believe, railway companies would consider it advisable
to adopt, without interference from any branch whatever—he
meant the stopping of trains at a certain number of stations,
and the taking care that a reasonable number of trains stopped
to meet the wants of the districts which they traversed.
He admitted that this would involve an interference
with the discretion of directors, but it was for the
House to say whether it was justified or not. In fact, he saw
no reason why interference should not take place in this way
as well as with respect to the fares. The directors of railways
paid every attention to the long traffic but little to the short.
On a railway which ran between two large towns the trains
offered every accommodation—cheap fares and regular jour-
nies—whereas the short traffic was often taken part of the
distance at a rapid pace, and left for some time at stations on
the route. There should be a general rule that, where a dis.
trict had no other means of accommodotion than by railway,
that a certain number of trains should stop during the day.
It might be said that this was a matter in which the directors
were the best parties to judge; but he considered that this
was one of those matters with which they might interfere with,
as well and as beneficially as with most others.,--
( Hear, hear.) They had to keep up stations and officers.
and often stopped trains by signals, when passengers or
goods were to be conveyed, se that the regular stopping of the
trains could not involve much additional expense or much loss
of time; but even supposing there was some pecuniary loss, it
would be nothing compared with the advantages which would
be thus conferred upon the public. He hoped his suggestion
would be adopted in Committee, lie begged to second the
motion.
The SPEAKER having put the question,
Mr. HUME said, in his opinion the public would derive
great advantage from the Bill. He wished to know whether
he proposed to take any steps with respect to the
running of trains on Sundays. It was not well
to leave the question an open one as at present.
Considerable agitation had taken place on the euliect, and as
many as nineteen towns had petitioned in favour of trains
running on that day. In one case, the matter rested entirely
with two directors. He should be glad to leave the matter in
the hands of the Commissioners. He thought the House ought
rather to favour those who were compelled to travel by the third
class carriages, instead of throwing impediments in their way,
lie hoped the Commissioners would turn their attention to the
subject, and promote their comfort as much as possible.
Mr. ELLICE apprehended that great good would arise
from the measure. He had examined the details of the Bill
now before the House, and had found that the capital which
they proposed to expend amounted to 41,060,000/. Now, it
was important to know what course was to be adopted with re-
lied to these Bills, in the present state of public business, the
Hon. Gentleman could not expect to have the Bill passed be-
tore these Bills went before Committees in the ordinary course.
It was right that the House should know if the Hon. Gentle-
man intended the measure he had introduced to interfere in any
way with those Bills.
Mr. STRUTT was understood to say that the Bill had
in view future railway legislation, and would not
affect the railway Bills now before the House. If
there should be ant special matter on which Parliament
should require a report from them, it would be in the power of
Parliament to require such reports from the board, but as the
session was so tar advanced it would be impossible to go into
such inquiries as were proposed. They would be able to go
into the general merits of the Bill, but they could not enter
into local inquiries. Such questions, as of amalgamation and
so forth, they would examine into to the best of their ability,
hut it would be of the greatest importance that they should
keep quite iostito t the questions of the general mete, and of
rival mere, as ware of time as well as weer of organi-
sation during the present session, would prevent the board
und. raking such responsibilities; and be ass most anx-
ous that t es should not have any duty imposed uponf them. at
first which they would not be able satisfactorily perform.
Mr.iELLICEtv,
ast
the
all loans relating to
Board for their
wished
railroads should he referred t_
nttoioanskofthheeCrhoanneiceeslliyoreo.e_GttoeeeePrEnz:cehnOr
to
propose, any standing orders, under e writifroad
Bill
Mr. EN FIVISTL
report, and that that report
as laid down by the Right
to be a very excellent tlaiedenbeloiereredthe
tHhoense.
Hon Gentleman. The B"ti
controlt°:hu al
dt
which they would exercise
the excellent; the Board would not
better line could be obtained, but only
over new schemes byyTe proposed system of deciding between
ascertainwas
e the better—neither of which ought to
before the Legislature for its sanction. He did not see
tchortethe Bill would give them the lower of insisting them-
wtwhoichriecatihe schemes
tw whether
ear
them-
selves on a line which would really answer the wants of the
district to be supplied by railway communication. He consi-
dered, also, that with respect to the veto, the board might use-
fully exercise that prerogative, and there could then be an
appeal to a Committee of the House. With reference to tolls,
he confessed that the period, as sugeested, did seem somewhat
short for a true result to be obtained.—(llear, hear.) He
neeessaroibl
should not offer any opposition to the Bill upon those points.
yserveo,bligtehdat
tot the
gtowelvselow,hoursio'
train
Agai
v 'bee would
s
consequence of the very great number of trains
passing with valuable and important traffic, It had
frequently to be moved out of the way, in order that it might
not interfere with the safety of the passengers.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (in answer
to the question of Mr. Ellice) said that it would be extremely .
desirable that such a report should be made, and it ought to be
carefully considered what words would be introduced in the
Bill.

Mr. GOULBURN said that there could be no possible
reason why railway compannies should not raise loans upon
good securities ; but his objection was, that the present system
gave them the facility of using what was a sort of paper circu-
lation in the country, which led to very manifest inconvenience.
He had not heard the latter portion of the Right Hon.
Member's speech, and it was very likely that he had made-
some observations respecting this point which he had not the
good fortune to hear. He believed that it was one of material
importance not only as affecting the railway companies them-
selves, but the financial strwigement of the country itself.—:
ear.)
Mr. B. DENISON said that he objected to such a power
as the veto bung placed )1, the liaTith of any body whatsoever,
and he was quite sure that Parliament would not consent to
part with such a prerogative. On the whole, he was favour..
able to the measure, which he considered would effect very be.