The Sun.
London, England, 1824-02-12 00:00:00

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 12, 1824.

not oppose the principle of either motion, he anticipated little
difficulty in making the Returns called for.
The motion was then agreed to.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER appeared at
the Bar, and announced that the Address voted yesterday to
the Crown, praying for certain Returns had been presented.
COURT OF KING'S BENCH IN IRELAND.
Mr. GOULBURN brought in a Bill to regulate the Court
of King's Bench in Ireland.—Read a first and ordered to be
read a second time on Friday, •
Sir G. CLERK presented the usual Estimates for the present
year.—Ordered to lie on the table.
EXCISE.
Colonel DAVIES moved for an Account of the Total Pro-
duce of the Excise. While on his legs he wished to ask the
Hon. Secretary to the Treasury s :question which he had put
to him last year. Two years ago lie had been of opinion that
a saving might be effected by conealidating certain duties;
which were then collected partly...in-Ave customs, and partly in
the excise. The Paymaster of. the Forces, when this subject
was mentioned, had said thew-alteration recommended was
likely to be made. Last year, he, (Colonel Davies), had
'spoken to the Hon. Gentleman opposite, who had also said
that the change in question was intended to .be made. He,
however, was informed, that up to that hour, nothing of the
kind had been done. Now, as was convinced that a saving
of several hundred thousand pounds in the year might be efe
fected by the course which he had suggested, he wished to
know whether any thing was about to be done on it, as if such
were not the case, he should feel it to be his duty to bring the
subject under the consideration of the House ?
Mr. HERRIES assured the Gallant Officer, that he had not
said the measure which he had recommended was about to be
adopted. What he had said on being spoken to respecting it
last year was, that it was in the contemplation of the Treasury,
to attend to the subject. He had certainly not stated any pro-
gress to have been made in effecting such an arrangement, but
had merely described it as being one that was to be considered.
One set of Commissioners were about to make a report on this
subject when he gave his answer, but it was thought desirable
to wait for the result of the investigations then carrying on by.
Conimissioners appointed to makeinquiries into the state of the
Excise in Ireland and Scotland. It happened that in Great
Britain and Ireland different modes of collecting the Port-
Duties had been established. The question then was, which
mode of collecting them should be applied to this whole ? All.
he could say was this, that the subject to which the Honourable
Gentleman had called his attention, stood foremost for con-
sideration at the Treasury, and he hoped would soon be dis-
posed of.
Col. DAVIES wished to know if the Hon. Gentleman would
say that some measure connected With this subject would be
brought forward in the course of the present Session ?
bwtai was
annfteirthsi
Mr. HERRIES could not promise thise as it depended on
reports to'be made by two sets of Commissioners—one appoint-
ed by Parliament, and one under his Majesty's warrant. It
be received,
bleto saeynwolhietaniateldte,irneretpimoretswwa
ouuldldbeb
Colonel DAVIES said he was determined not to let this
Session pass without bringing the subject forward, if nothing
was done on the other side of the House.
The account moved for was ordered.
Mr• MANNING presented a Petition from Lymington,
praying for the repeal of the Coal Duties.
Ordered to lie on the table.
ANK .
Mr. MANNING said he ha notU been in his place yester.
day, having been called elsewhere to attend the discussion of a
most important subject, apd consequently was not present when
his Hon. Friend (Mr. Grenfell) had moved for a return of the
Issues of Bank-notes and Bank Post Bills. Nothing could
have been easier for him had notice been given on the subject,
to have supplied the desired information. He could have no
objection. to its being known whether the issues were large or
small, but the Act of Parliament, tinder which the Bank had
been required to lay such accounts annually before the House,
only required this to be done, while cash payments were sus-
pended. Now, that cash-payments were resumed, he did not
know that the issues of the Bank were more liable to be called
for than his own private acceptances, or those of any other
Banker in London.
Mr. GRENFELIJ differed from his Hon. Friend, add could
no, think that the acceptances of a private individual might its
well be called for as the information which he desired. In his
opinion it was most important that the public, in the present
such accounts been tslilteulastsillonesoofftbtlinegsin°ku.id
nw fhoartmweerlrye given, the impression on his mind was,- that the catastrophe of
1797 (such he must always call it) would never have taken
place. He should take an Opportunity of bringing this question
under the consideration of the House on Tuesday next, when be
proposed to move for certain annual accounts.
Sir J. SEBRIGHT presented a petition from Ware, in
Hertfordshire, praying fora repeal of the Coal Duties.--Or-
tiered to lie on the table.
.The Hon. Baronet also presented a petition from Baltlerej‹,
praying the House to take into consiiieratfon the state of the
Slave Population of the-West Intlies.—Ordered to lie on the
table.
Mr. RUMBOLD presented a petition from the Merchants
and Ship Owners of the Town of (;real Yarmouth, against the
Duties on -Coals•—Ordered to,lie on 'the table.
QUALIFICATIONS OF' JURORS.
Mr. WESTERN rose to move for leaVe to bring in a Bill
to alter-the law with respect to the qualifiCations of Jurors.—
The alteration which lie should propose was one of very mate-
rial importance, but at the same time it was one to which he
• ,
tnougnt very little objection could be made. He was of
opi-
nion that the subject bad been overloctked, or he thought it,
would have sooner been considered entitled to the considera-
tion of that. House. 'Various alteratinni had been made from
time to time in the qualifications. till at last those were fixed
upon which were now required by law-101. per annum from
landed property in England, and something else elsewhere.—
This qualification Was not necessary in the City of London,
where personal property to the amount of 1001. was all that was
required. In certain boroughs and corporate towns, personal
property to theamount of but 40/. was sufficient. He proceeded
to shew that a person claiming 101. per annum from land;
whether freehold or copyhold, might be in a state of great po-
verty, and most ineligible to serve as Jurors, while others,
who were in every respect fit to be chosen, were excluded. He
read over some extracts from the freeholders' book to chew what
proportion the persons qualified to serve as Jurors bore to the
rental of • certain places. In one parish the rental was 91451.,
the Jurors eleven—in the next the rental was 4600/., and but
one. Juror--in the next the rental was 7047/., Jurors nine—in
the next the rental was 30001., Jurors two. 'The total rental
of a number ofparishes to which he referred was 94,5004—the
total number of persons qualified to serve as Jurors, 87 from
that rental. Ile proceeded at some length, but in a very low'
tone, to explain. the advantages which would 'result from al-
lowing.personal property to qualify persons to serve as JurorS,
and described the various provisions which he proposed so sub-
mit to thellouse in the Bill he wished to introduce, which he
stated to be a renewal of that which fie had brought in last year
on the same subject. He concluded •by moving fbr leave to
bring in a Bill to regulate the qualifications of Jurors.
Mr. LEYCESTIiR seconded the motion. 'The proposed
Bill would admit a class of persons to serve as Jurors, who
were in every respect eligible to serve, and who were very
Willing to take upon themselves the duty. Following such a
course would make the business of three Assizes not more
onerous than that of two had been, and would thus do away
with the only objection to a third assize. The Hon. Gentle-
man then called their attention to the present arrangement with
respect to the number of Judges presiding in the Courts at the
same mine. He contended that the number of four in one
Court was not necessary. That number had not always been
deemed indispensible, and if but three were now held to he
sufficient, g
reat benefit would result to the public, as the third
assize could then be carried on -without inconvenience. Ile
highly approved of a third assize in the year. To this we now
owed it that a-most heinous murderer had suffered the sentence
of the law at Hertford, who would else have been still living a
Teproach to the justice of the country. He wished the measure
success for its own sake, but still more on account of the support
it would give to a third assize, and hoped it would be follovred
up by his Hon. Friend, to whom- he thought they were under
great obligatinsi for the contiimett'employrnent of his mind in
the service of•his country.
Captain IMABERLEY expressed an apprehension that some
inconvenience might arise from passing this Bill at the present
moment, when a measure was about to be introduced for the
purpose of all the laws relating to the subject of it.
Mr. WESTERN explained.
Mr. LOCKHART diej not think the Hon. Gentleman wrong
in bringing forward this subject as-he had done, as in his opi-
nion it was one which ought to be separately discussed. He
did net, consider that our ancestors bad vi....,hed Juries to be for

ever selected front freeholders, and from no other class, but they illegal to bait a bull in the Metropolis, by the Act he had just
had given themthe.qualification regarding them as the most in- obtained leave to amend, which prevented cruelt of
aiMal
dependent persons in the then state of the country; and as such Nay, there was one part of the town in which all of these ins_
the fittest to defend the rights of their fellow-subjects. The human barbarities were prohibited by the- Mary-le-bone Act.
I
system, however, which had been established, had bestowed In Mary-le-bone there could he neither bull-fight, nor bettea
great benefits, and ought not to he lightly parted with. Ile fight, nor monkey-fight, nor dog-fight. If he would not-allow:
wished tha subject to lie well considered, and if any change him leave to bring in this Bill, he must go a step further and
were eventnally made, he should he anxious to take care that a repeal that clause in the Mary-le-bone Act. He -could assure
due proportion of Freeholders were retained.
whom Juries , contrary to the feelings oflt ought to be the House that if they opposed his Bills, they would be acting
their obect to guard against excluding those bythe country.
had heretofore been formed, while introducing new characters. Mr. LOCKHART said, he thought
lie could make a suge
i
He did not know that lie should oppose the present measure,' gestion which would save the Hon. Gentleman the trowittle cet•
but he purposed watching it in its progress, and hoped it.would, pressing his motion. If the- existing Act prevented bull bait-
be found practicable to consolidate the ' two interests—those of ing, it might be extended to bear fighting, and the discussion
real and personal property. could be taken upon that point.
Mr. Secretary PEEL would not oppose the intreduction of Mr. 11. MA-R.TIN adopted the suggestion, and withdrew his
j
this Bill. He, Indeed, concurred with a parttof it, and at all motion.
events considered the subject to be one which was worthy of 1
D.
their most serious attention, though lie might not be prepared f Mr. HUME rose toLEGACY move for further returns, in addition to
to go so far as the lion. Gentleman woulu take them. He, (those which he caused to be laid before tine House last year,
however, agreed with the Iltin.ourable . and Learned Gent- I upon the subject of the Legacy Duties. The liberal principle
tleman who had last spoken, that an alteration ought not to i upon which the Chancellor of the Exchecater and other Mom-
be
made without great deliberation. Some of the statements [hers of the Government had acted with regard to commercial
of the Honourable Gentleman would induce him to draw 1 subjects, would clearly point out the necessity of repealing
inferences opposite to 'those which he had drawn from their', j altogether so- heavy a tax upon capital, which had been con-
As in Boroughs and Corporate Towns personal. property I demned by all eminent writers. The returns made last year
'qualified individuals to serve as Jurors, the principle for which I were not sufficient for his purpose, as it was not found pract-
the Honourable Gentleman contended was in part admitted, I cable to make them up annually from the year It/VS.--
and he thought' the question as to•what amount of personal I From 1806 that had been done, and he found that the total SUM
property should be deemed sufficient, one which demanded i of 22,124,0001. had been raised en the public in the form of
grave consideration. He did not know whether he should find : legacy duties. His object now was to move for .more detailed:
A necessary to oppose the Bill, but he certainly anticipated ! returns, in consequence of having found that demands were
that considerable embarrassment would arise in tetermining i made upon individuals for duties that had been solong in peweet
whether the amount of property was possessed which
_qualified i that the property upon which they were charged had got into
persons to act as Jurors. -It was a very subordinate officer, a : other hands, and the persons so made to pay had no right what-
constable, who had to summon the .furors, and he could not ever to do so. The object of the returns he wanted was to
determine whether individuals possessed 1001. or 4001. or what_ ; :thew the number of probates and administrations taken out in
ever the qualification might be, without snaking a very incon- ' each year in England, and of inventories, as they were called, venientinquisition into private affairs. It would be well to !in Scotland, and the number of those which had been reported
consider if some other way could not be found for giving the Ito the proper officer. There was no excuse whatever for ne-
qualification, either by reference to the amount which the party , glecting these reports, as everyprobate taken out at Doctor',
might be assessed for the Poor or to the King's Rates. The Commons was ordered to be reported within seven days. The
qualification in this way might be easily ascertained, but the : administrations were allowed the unnecessary time of six
mode would occasion great inconveniences ; first, from the j weeks ; although he should be able to skew to the house that
attempts of the Juror to excuse himself from serving, and next . twenty-four hours was quite sufficient. Those whose dute
from the challenges which might come from another quarter. ' this was were quite well enough paid for doing it, and he had
He however would reserve what he had to say on the subject a memorial front Mr. Campbell sheaving; the necessity and the
of the Bill for a future occasion ; and he was especially clesir- means of making such arrangements. The returns would
ous of doing so, as his Learned Friends the Attorney and. So- give the numerical proportion for each year, and the probatee
licitor-General were absent. He should not oppose the !sting- madeand those which remained unsettled, and then it would
ing in of the Bill. It could go to a Committee, and then, if be for the House to consider whether some relief should not
readiness
wtoitsiul
such should be the pleasure of the House, probably the don. be given to the public by allowing them the benefit of the statute
b whichect, of. thet Chancellori.;
nature,
Gentleman would not object to the provisions which it might of limitation, or by giving them some other protection. He
contain, being worked into that which' he'Cllr. Secretary Peel)
odfestihreedEtoxaetniouwelretalglwva%hse reetatedoi
proposed to introduce.
Mr. WESTERN wished to bring in the Bill to forward it and when he had mentioned this to him he was dad to hea-
to the Committee, and then the House could dispose of it as they that some measures were being taken with regardl it. lie
pleased.
I hoped they would be sufficient to remove the grievance.
Leave was given to bring in One Bill. j The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
Mr. WESTERN moved an Address to the Crown for a Re- withouteetopping to inquire into the policy of the tax upon the
turn of all the Felons Tried in the Home Circuits of January, present occasion, he was ready to admit that
persons who were
1822 and 1823, distinguishing those convicted front those acquit- called upon to pay the duties years after a settlement had been
ted or discharged.—The motion was agreed to. , made, were obliged to submit to a case of hardship. He b
CRUELTY TO ANIMALS. I lieved that these arrears had arisen not so much from ' e.
an inten-
don to avoid
Mr. R. MARTIN, anticipating no objection to the motion payment so much as from the inconvenient form
which he had to make, would not trespass long on the attention • of the. laws, and the uncertainty in which parties were placed
of the House. The object which he had in view was to amend from the irregularity in serving notices, and from other causes.
the Bill which he had formerly brought in, as certain animals . In 1812 some important alterations were recommended by
had been omitted in it which were as well entitled to protec.. the Gentleman to whom the Honourable Member had alluded,
tion as others to which it extended. He wished it to extend to which removed many defects, and led to the discovery of many
dogs. An Hon. Friend near him wished to know if it would duties which had not been paid, and persons then in pus-
comprehend rats.—(A laugh.)—'finis was a subject on which he session of property were called upon for payment ; and the
might touch at a future period. He, however, thought the . manner in which this had affected individuals was certainly a
proposed extension ef the- provisions of. the till
,Num not be grievance. The Treasury had, however, adopted measures
ohjecterto. Ile had read of an unfortunate dog, on whom a which he trusted would remove it for the future, and the aiw
so that en street and expired. In another instance Mr. WARRE said, that the Right Hon. Gentleman had not
oil of vitriol had been thrown on a creature of the san.a species. adverted to that part of his Hon. Friend's statement which re..
He hoped, without affecting more sensibility than otners felt, ferred to the length of time before ditties could be paid under
he might be allowed to entertain a wish that a stop should be Administrations. .
put to such barbarities. What reason was there why the ani- The CILANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, lie had
male he had mentioned should not he protected as others were ? never before (heard this complained of as a grievance, but he
He should with to make maltreatment of any animal a inisde- should certainly turn his attention to it.
meanon There was no reason why a man should not be tried After a few words, which were inaudible, ftom Mr. Ley-
at the uarter
to Seesions for such an offence, though-he by no cester and Mr. Huskisson, the Returns Were ordered.
means wished take away the summary jurisdiction of the
INQUEST IN IRELAND.
Magistrates. For cruelty to horses in the streets it might be a INQUEST GRATTAN rose to call the attention of the Right
sufficient punishment to inflict a fine of 51., or to commit the Hon
_ .. , Secretary for Ireland to a circumstance Which had come
offender for three months. But there were some cruelties, such to his knowledge, and in which it appeared that justice was not
as a late case, where a parcel of horses had been burned to likely to have its course. The lion. Member then read a death, which which he most potently believed would not be ade_ ter, which stated that a person, named Michael Megan, had
quately visited by either of the initiations he had mentioned. been killed by a policeman, against whom no proceedings had
in the town of liolywell a wretch had fixed a horse over a slow been taken. The writer stated that he was returning from
fire, and kept the animal in that situation till the whole con- -some placel where lie had been on business, end as it rained
tents of the abdomen had tumbled out. No man could say '
that the Magistrates possessed the means of adequately punish- eivaacredstisiv:pititiehei weenet(lnotodaerpeudblic-house. Twit; policemen afeer-
ing such enormities. He wished to correct this defect, and he created a riot, inn Which r
man cards and ligtior. .
_They then_
_ a was killed. The evidence taken
had now stated the whole object of the Bill. He then moved for before the Coroner's Inquest stated, that the man was stabbed
leave to bring in a Bill to amend the former Act. , by one of the policemen ; yet the Jury brought in a verdict to
Lord STANLEY seconded the motion—Leave was given. the contrary. The man, he believed, was now at large, and
BEAR BAITING. it was most desirable that some steps should be taken to in-
Mr. R. MARTIN then rase to move forleave to bring in a
.veetigate the subject, he should therefore move that there he
Bill to abolish Bear Baiting 'and other cruel practices. He was laid upon the table of the House Copy of the proceedings taken
not aware that any objection would be made to the motion, , a. before the Inquest. He could not hear the n e f h
o t e place
and therefore would not detain the House by going into at wh 'ich the affair occurred.
details.
Mr. GOULBURN said, that he knew nothing of the &-
The motion having been seconded,
curnstances of the case but it aPpeared that the Jury were
Mr. Secretary PEEL was as much disposed as any one to satisfied the deceased did not come by his death from the in-
do justice to the motives of the Honourable Gentleman, but juries received upon the particular occasion. • But supposin
though lie did not object to the introduction of a bill to amend the policeman to be guilty, he the ask the Hon. Member
though
former acts, he saw in this instance a great extension of whether it would make best for the interests of justice to pub-
the principle, involving considerations so important, that the lish the criminatory proceedings of the Coroner's Inquest, so
lion. Gentleman, tojustify the course he took, ought to have gone that he might shape his defence accordingly. But even sup- .
more into details. He could not abstain from expressing his posing the verdiet to lie contrary to the evidence, then.
Hon.
sentiments on this subject. If the bill proceeded on the prin. Gentleman knew that it was quite competent for any one to
ciple, that all pains inflicted on animals, excepting those which put the man upon his trial, or for the Goeerement to do it if
were to accompliah their destruction for the use of man, were CO there appeared to be a case which called for their interposition.
be punished by law, that would be fair; but it was not so, to pass Ile did'not, however, think that hawing the papers before the
this.bill topunish conduct similar to that with which they might House could in any way assist the ends of justice.
be charged who Made this law. It was impossible for him to Mr. GRATTAN said that, his only object Was to call public
rise for the purpose of vindicating cruelty to animals ; but lie attention to tine case, and if' he Saw ia'rospe tof Go.
could not forget that they themselves were liable to be charged vernment interfering to prosecute the any
Inc c • the
man, le should withdraw
with similardoings. It would be remembered, that in the last les motto,. .
Session, the House had refused to alter the laws respecting Mr. GOULBURN said he would examine the case, but lie
Game, because it was wished to presesve animals so denomie could not pledge himself to prosecute while Int was in entire
nated for the amusement of those who are partial to a country ignorance of the facts.—The motion was withdrawn.
life, and were by this induced to live on their estates, and thus -
benefit their neighbours and dependants. Fowling, shooting, . SUPPLyt
and hunting, were the amusements of a country life, and could Upon the motion of the CILANCE LLOR of the EXCHZQUE It
it be denied that these were open to censure, as well as those the House went into a Committpe oe supply,
against whom this Bill was to be directed. On. the same The CHANCE LI;()R of the EXCHEQUER moved that a
grounds, bear-baiting, cockfighting, and,shooting might be sum not exceeding 33,000,000/. be granted to his Majesty for
arraigned. , If, for a particulat purpose of police, such a g Paying off Exchequer Bills outstanding.
practice as hear-baiting ought to be put down, this proved, he Mr. HUM said, that as he supposed this was fbr a renewal'
might concur in the measure, but if it was only to be attacked of the Bills of hat year, he wished to ask the Right Hon. Gen-
on the principle that it inflicted pain on animals, then he must tleman whether the same rate of interestwas to be 'given, or
object that the measure was too limited in its view. Who whether there was any intention of lowering it.
could deny that hawking was cruel? Fishing, too, deserved The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
tine same character, and had been considered as a fraud prat- these Bills
.diti not relate to the inteie t; and he was not in a
tised on a very defenceleee animal. This was as unfeeling as state exactly to answer the question, as the subject would come
bear-baiting. Some hat! indeed contended that the bear ex- , on by-and-bye, when he made his general statement.
pressed a sort of pleaseve in being confronted with his natural Mr. HUME did not wish to press the question if there was
opponent. Without, 'however, maintaining this, it was not any delicacy about answering it. • worse than the sports he had named. i,honkies were exhibited Mr. BERRIES said, that the object of the motion was so
in cages for purposes of gain ; and this might, for aught he charge the supplies of last year upon these Bills, and that there
knew, be as cruel as the practices which had been made the would be a provision for discharging them, and then came the
subject of complaint. The principle here put forward once question of interest.
admitted he could not tell how far it might be carried. It was The resciution was agreed to.
but fair that all sports which inflicted pain on animals should The sum of MAO/. was voted to pay off Exchequer Bill!
be dealt with in the same way. If the principle on which bear- issued bet Ween the 6th ofJanuary 1823; and the sth et*Januart,
baiting were now attacked were a good one the Hon. Gentle- 1824, under the Acts, for encouraging Public Works aidi
smut ought to'go further, and not spare those .ports in which Fisheries, and for building of Churches.
the Members of that House were accustomed ten indulge them- The sum of 1;050,000/. was voted for discharging the Internet
selves. On these grounds he should resist the motion, as it upon, the Exchequer Bills just alluded to. • went exclusively to interfere with the sports of the lower orders. - Also the sum of 2,000,0001. for discharging the interest upon
Mr. MARTIN said, if the Hon. Secretary had attended the like SupPlies.granted last year.
any of these sports, he would be of opinion they stood on a The House then resumed ; the Report was ordered to be re-
e
different ground from shooting; fishing, or hunting. He went ceived to-morrow.
along with his Right Honourable. Friend, that all sports
which inflicted cruelty upon animals ought equally to be abo-
lished. And he could assure the House that
.there were mil-
lions'
of well.meaning men amongst the people of England who
wished them to be so. He was at that time in correspondence
with all parts of the country, end there was thardly a town in
it which was not ready to petition in favour of his Bills.—
When his Right •Honourable Friend said, that he could not
support his Bill without going a step further, and removing
all other sports where cruelty was teed, his Right Honour-
able Friend must himself go a step further, and repeal the
laws which had been already passed. It had been rendered

ARMY ESTIMATES.
Sir C. LONG presented certain papers containing the Army
Estimates, and others relating to tne Board of %V e.
on the table.

IRISH C LAN.W.
Mr. GOULBURN moveHdUß forCH a Return of the number of_
Acres of Church Land in Ireland,' distinguishing such as are
glebe, and such as are uncultivated.

NEW .
A new writ was ordered for theWRIT County of Westmeath, is
he room of Gustavus flume Rochfort, Esqo deceased.
Adjourned.