The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-31 00:00:00

AND HARWICH.

Mr. GOULBURN said he held in his hand petitions
signed by the principal merchants of Russia, Prussia,
and other centinental countries, praying for a railway
communication between the port of Harwich and
Loudon. He also held in his hand a petition from the
inhabitants of Harwich to the same effect.
GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY.
Mr. CRAVEN BERKELEY presented a petition
from the Dean of Windsor against the Windsor and
Great Western Railway.
NOTICES OF MOTIONS.:7:FIZOVINCIAL BEER-

SELLERS.
Mr. SPOONER (in the absence of his colleague Mr.
Muntz) gave notice of bis intention to bring in a Bill to
enable the provincial brewers to keep open till twelve
o'clock, as was allowed to the metropolitan brewers.
CHARITABLE TRUSTS.
Mr. HUME gave notice of his intention to move for
leave to bring in a Bill for the better administration of
charitable trusts in England and \Vales.
MA DUTY.
Mr. BOND CABBELL moved for an address for ac-
counts of the amount of duty charged upon malt, the
number of quarters of malt upon which such duty was
charged, and the population of England and Wales in
the year 1700 ; of the amount of duty charged
upon malt, the number of quarters of malt upon
which such duty was charged, and the population
of the United Kingdom in each year, during the
years 1840, 1841, 1842, 1843, 1844, 1845, and 1846,
respectively ; of the amount of money received from the
duty on malt, and the net amount available for the
public revenue, in each year, during the years 1840, 1841,
1842, 1843, 1844, 1845, and 1846 respectively ; returns
of the number of beer-shops licensed to sell beer to be
drunk upon the premises, in each of such years respec-
tively ; of the number of acres of land now lying waste,
uncultivated, and uuinclosed in England and Wales,
Scotland and Ireland respectively.—Agreed to.
FOREIGN LOANS.

Mr. DISRAELI moved that an address beTresented
to her Majesty, praying that she will be graciously
pleased to lay before this House, copies of, or extracts
from, any correspondence between her Majesty's Secre-
tary of State, or written at his desire, and the Govern-
ments of Spain, Portugal, Greece, Mexico, and the
States of South America, respecting loans made by
British subjects to those Governments. Also, copies of
any communications made to British claimants from the

Foroi2ll-nfrx,i tl,e :i,lijnot of ..;uch cori.pwalc:nce.--
AL:reed to.

SUPPRESSION OF SEDUCTION AND FROST'.

TUTION.

Mr. SPOONER izesz-ntedtWO petitions from congre-
gations in Bradford, praying for a measure to suppress
trading in seduction, and for the better protection of
females.

Lord ROBERT GROSVENOR presented five pea'
tions to the same effect.

MERCHANT SEAMEN'S FUND.
Mr. AGLIONBY wished to ask a question before
the order of the day was gone into. It was one of
the greatest importance to the public, and ilsd,
reference to the • Merchant Seaman's Fund
some days ago, he had been led to understand
that a Commission of inquiry was about to be issuedr
and he wished to know it such were the fact.
Captain BERKELEY said that he had every reason
to suppose that tie Commission would immediately 10
issued and the inquiry gone into.
BILL TO SUPPRESS TRADING IN SEDUCTION
AND PROSTITUTION. --

Mr. SPOONE3 then proceeded to ask leave to intro-
duce the Bill of which he had given notice for the sup'
pression of the trading in seduction, and for the better
protection of females. He eould assure them that he felt
great difficulty in bringing the question under the
notice of the House, as he was persuaded he could not
do it that justice it deserved. He would have been better
satisfied had the measure been placed in abler hands,
and if the Members of the Government opposite had
taken it under their protection. There existed in the
metropolis an ass ,ciation—
Mr. GRANTLEY BERKELEY—Sir, I rise to 11
point of order. The Hon. Member, to make good big
case, must bring before the House matters and details
which are altogether unfit fur publication. I therefore
call the attention of the House to the fact that there are
strangers in both galleries.
The galleries were then cleared, and the debate pro-
ceeded with closed doors.
HEALTH OF TOWNS BILL.
On our re-admission to the gallery of the House, We
found

Lord MORPETH moving for leave to bring in a Bill
for the establishing regulations for the improvement of
the health of towns. This-he observed was no new sub-
ject, for it had been repeatedly brought under the notice
of the legislature, and more especially of late by the re-
ports of Dr. Arnott, early in 1838 ; again, in January,
1839, by a report of Dr. Southwood Smith ; again, in
August, 1839, a general report was made to the House
by commissioners engaged to investigate the state of the
country ; in January, 1840, a return had been made
under the commission authorised by the Marquis of
Normanby ; again, in 1842, there was a report of the
general sanatory condition of Great Britain ; again, there
were similar reports in 1843, 1844, 1845, and again
there was a second report made by the commissioners.
In 1845 the Earl of Lincoln had presented a report to
the House on the state of health in towns, and from this
report he would read a summary, so that the House
might see that an amount of labour had been expended
on this subject, and who had contributed to furnish the
facts on which he desired that they should legislate. lie
was the more desirous that this should be made known
to the llouse, as by that it would be perceived that he
had been no party to the accumulation of these facts,
but that he was ccme in, as he trusted, at the last hour,
to the accomplishment of an important object, though he
was not the party entitled to the credit of its achieve'
ment. He would place before the House the circum-
stances which, whether they were viewed in their
political, social, or statistical aspect, were worthy of the
gravest consideration. But in doing this he should only
take the primary features, and reserve the details till
some future opportunity, but he felt that be
could not do anything like justice to the subject, or pro-
perly lay this matter before the Legislature, without
stating some of the evils which had resulted from the
neglect of the in); ortant measure which he had now to
introduce. He was quite aware that there were some
persons in that House with whom he was not so fortne
nate as to agree that it was nut the duty of the Legisle-
tore to take any steps for directing or improving the
public mind. But if there was any question on the
subject of education, there could be none upon the :Alb'
ject that it was the bounden duty of the Legislature te,
overlook, superintend, and provide for those physical see
external necessitiee under any circumstances, which
might materially affect the health and the happiness Of
a people ; nor did he teel that there was anything that
could justify their dispensing with attention in this We/
to the welfare of the people, or that would exonerate them
from bringing these matters forward ; nor should he re•
frain from doing so with all the powers he could command'
He found by the statement of Mr. Guy—the gentleman
who had been appointed to make a report of the cone'
parative health of town and country districts, and whet
for his extensive hospital practice, had a most complete
knowledge of the subject to which his attention bad
been directed—he found by the statement of that gen"
tleman to the Registrar General, that in the country
districts, where the population only have the proportion
of 199 to the square mile, the number of deaths was 19,300
in a million, while in the town districts, where the popti-
lation was 5,108 to the square mile, the number of death/
amounted to 27.900; thus showing an excess in towns
of upwards of 8,000 deaths that might have been avoided.
The rate of mortality in country_ districts was 1 in 52,
while in towns it was lin 37. He was aware that this
might be said to be the case of particular places; but
the present rate of mortality throughout England Was
1 in 45; while in the Isle of Wight it was 1 in 58, and
in the Isle of Anglesea in was 1 in 62; but in London,
instead of being lin 58, or lin 62, it was lin 39. In
Leeds and Birmingham it was 1 in 37; in Sheffield it
was 1 in 33; in Bristol 1 in 32; in Manchester 1 in 31,
and in Liverpool, which he regretted to perceive, en-
joyed a bad pre-eminence, instead of being 1 in 58 or
62, as it was in the healthy islands to which ho bad
referred, it was lin 29. So that it followed, that in
this capital the greater number of inhabitants, as come'
pared with the rest of England, were deprived of eight
years of their lives, and in Liverpool they were, accord-
ing to this statement, deprived of nineteen years of
existence. The population of the great towns is COin'
puted at 4,000,000, so that the loss of life throughout the
whole of the country was not less than 31,000 or 32,000
annually. But all towns did not exhibit the same rate
as Liverpool. The average loss of life in that town was;
about 38 in a thousand per annum. In Manchester it is
32 in a thousand ; in Carlisle it is 32 ; in Halifax and
Kidderminster it is 21 in a thousand. If he turned to
the mortality of the counties he found the same rule 0
hold, for among the Cornish miners and in some parts of
Wiltshire the average is 1 in 49 ; while the mortality
in Lancashire is as high a; lin 36. In Lancashire the
general ago at death was 22, and in Wiltshire 35. T"!„
general average of consumption throughout England "
105 lbs. of butcher's meat, while in Manchester
the aggregate amount is only 201bs. for each person Pe?
annum. In manufacturing towns, the deaths from parti-
cular diseases was 1 in 13 of the general population,
while in the country it is only 1 in 54, During
the prevalence of the cholera, the deaths in Manchester
daily were 343, while in the country the number was 50,'
so that no less than 4,700 lives would have been save",
had the improvements devised by the Government been
brought into play. The whole result of these calcn-
lations was, that the average of deaths in Great Britain+
was 46 in 1,000 in the country, and 54 in 1,000 in the
towns, showing that not less than 14,949 lives had been
sacrificed by the want of these sanatory regulations, c,r,
one-seventh of the whole number of deaths that had
occurred in the country. This was Mr. Guy's opinion'
Nor was Dr. Southwood Smith less explicit in the state'
went of his opinion, expressing his belief in the state'
ment which he had made to the Registrar-General
that the whole of the evils endured were to be ascribed
to bad sewerage, the want of water the want of sca-
vengers, and the consequent accumulation of filth and
the generation of pestiferous miasma. They mightforo
some idea of the evil which the Sewerage Commis-
sioners had been unable to remedy, that in the worst
districts, out of 16,000 cases of fever, upwards of 150
out of every 200 had been occasioned by the prevalence
of the causes which he had stated : and throughout the
country not less than 700,000 unnecessary cases of fever
had occurred from this cause, and not less than 10,000
deaths. According to the regulation of the Registrar-
General, the whole of the country was divided into three
provinces, with ten districts in each, to ascertain the
rate of mortality. In ten of the healthiest districts,
where the quantity of ground allowed to each person Was
202 square yards, the annual rate of mortality is 1 in 49.
In ten of the medium districts where the quantity of
ground for each person is 102 square yards, the rate of
mortality is 1 in 41, and in the worst districts it is one
in 36. The Rev. Mr. Kay, of Preston, who had paid
great attention to this subject, had divided the severs'
districts into four classes, and he found that in the
healthiest districts the annual average of deaths is 15 in
100; in the bad districts it is 38 in 100; and is the worst
districts it is 44 in 100. In the parish of St. George a,
Hanover-square, the annual average period at which
those in the upper classes die, is 45 yea's, while among
the labouring classes the average period of death is 27
years. In St. Giles's, and the neighbouring parish,
~
the usual term of life among those connect"'
with the gentry is 40, while among the
ing classes it is only 17
Years. InLiverpool:
the usual average period of death, among, the uPPeig
classes, is 35, while among the poerer inhabitants it ,_
only 15 years. For the sake of convenience, the whT,°l7,
of the country is divided into 103 districts by the Re'
gistrar-General, and it appeared by the last report but
one, that 43,582 deaths were registered in the spring
quarter quarter ending June 30—a number greater by 2,60
than were registered in the corresponding quarter .:
1845 ; and 4,731 more than in the June quarter of 1844
If the mortality had not been higher in the towns than in
the poor country districts where the air is pure, the
deaths in the quarter would not have exceeded 33,000.
Within the last three months 10,000 lives have been de-
stroyed in a part only of England, by causes which thetroe
every reason to believe might be removed. In June, 18
appeared from the reports, that from the deficiency of the
drainage of the ground areas, there was a constant usioa
of malaria and volatile poisons arising from thestagnantff
ditches which surrounded London as other towns are
surrounded by walls. In Sheffield and Liverpool the
number of deaths was one-third more from this cause,
the
than it was in London, and the mortality
ra-
pidly increasing. The deaths had increased,
The Noble
the previous year in 1845 by 14 per cent.
Lord then went through a series of statements of the
number of deaths which had occurred in Manchester,
Bristol, Liverpool, and the other chief places in the
country, to show the excess, the repetition of which
would only be a (try detail of a mass of figures, and
the result of which was to show that the increase would
soon amount to more than double the mortality which
had been suffered in previous years. This was not to bo
wondered at when the nature of the summer which we
had had was taken into consideration, and the state of
the crowded lanes and dirty streets, which were con-
stantly throwing out a mass of poisonous miasma, and
there was little doubt that if we were to have a summer
like the last, that this mortality would be fright.

report
order

tp•
ry
In
00

fully inereesed. The deaths of infants and of
children were frightfully numerous. 1a
Manchester alone, there hid been as many as
13,362 who had died in infancy and early child-
hood within a very brief period; and-In Liverpool the
deaths were not less numerous. And he regretted to
say, that by the last returns the statements were not less
melancholy or important. He would now turn to the de-
tails of the measure which they meant to propose for the
amendment of this growing and serious evil. When
Lord Lincoln had first introduced a measure for
improving the -anetory condition of towns he had
truly stated, thet with the onerous duties pressing upon
the attention of ;he Secretary of State for the Home
D.partment, even with the assistat ef the Committee
of Privy Council it would be utterly ~sible for him,
even did the person holding that high c possess all
the qualities of the Right Hon. Baronet who held it
under the late administration, or of his Right lion.
Friend who now filled that post—it would be utterly im-
possible for him to attend to the duties which this Bill
would impose. To the general care of the internal
Government of England, Scotland, and Ireland was
added the general superintendence of the police,
the care of prison discipline, and the ultimate administra-
tion of the poor-law. The Committee of the Privy Council
too, he was sorry to say, was not at the present
moment in the highest favour with the people.
If, therefore, the business in hand was important
enough, and happened to be specially connected with
some other duties and functions, it might be important
enough to justify the constitution of a medical board for
the purpose, framed very much upon the same footing
as the railway board of last session, composed of five
members, three of them to be paid, and the others, mem-
bers of the Government, receiving no pay ; and the
person who filed the office which he had then the honour
to hold, should be the ex-officio chairman of that board.
This board, which it was proposed should be called
" The Board of Health and Public Works," should
be empowered, either upon petition -or otherwise,
to direct an inquiry into what was termed the
sanatory condition of any town or district. They
should be empowered to appoint inspectors upon
reeommendation, who should go down to these dis-
tricts and institute the necessary inquiries ; who should
make and direct surveys, and point out the direction of
streams and water courses, and define what should be
the proper area of any work which was to be
carried out, if there should be a case of neces-
sity for it. On receiving and considering this
report, the board of health would recommend that an
order in Council should issue, conferring the necessary
powers upon the local administration. Now what were
these powers, and what was that administration to be ?
With respect to these powers, he should revert entirely
to the old constitutional foundation, which he found
exercised by the commissioners of sewers, and which
Was originally brought forward in an Act passed in the
reign of Henry Bth. As these powers were exercised by
the commissioners, they did not provide sufficiently for
the construction of house drains in connexion with the
Main sewers, or furnish a proper supply of water. That
was the cardinal point on which all the recommendations
of all the various boards kad been founded. What was
to be done to a house were these powers of sewerage,
drainage, cleansing, &c., to be entrusted to the occupier?
lie would just mention that he should not find it neces-
sary to embody all the provisions respecting these
various functions in the present Bill. These were com-
prehended in the Bills which were drawn up in pursu-
ance of a resolution of a committee of this House last
session, and brought forward in the present session and
passed. Was it right to combine these powers
In the control and superintendence of our local ad-
ministrative body ? What was that body to be P
Lord Lincoln's Bill provided for a new electoral
body, and that certain districts and wards should be
Made for the purpose of these elections. He thought
that they had had almost enough of election F .and it
Would be hardly desirable to bring forward any new
system for the formation of a body especially analagous
to the town councils. They would be comprised of, and
elected by, the same sort of persons—their attention
Would be directed to many similar objects, and on ac
count of that very similarity they were more likely to
be jealous—counteracting and mutually repellent bodies.
Some had suggested a direct nomination from the
Crown, but he thought there would be reason to fear
the antagonism of those bodies chosen by tke people.
The system should be framed in such a way as to induce
activity, energy, and practical philanthropy, and a de-
sire to benefit the respective communities of these
bodies. The functions of draining, c:eensingeand sewer-
age seemed to be the appropriate function of s municipal
corporation.—(Hear, hear.) It was true that when
these corporations were first appointed there was
much jealousy springing up, but that evil was de-
creasing.—(lfear, hear.) It had been caused by
these bodies feeling themselves intrusted with
extraordinary posers of which, by the ordinary reaction
that
attended human affairs, they became jealous. They
ad, however, selected the town councils as the parties
most free from objections, and he had reason to believe,
that the more useful functions that were intrusted to
these councils, the more useful would be the men who
Joined theca. With regard to large pieces of wood-laud,
Where an appropriate outlet for drainage of the district
Could be found, these councils would have power, under
the sanction of a higher authority, of appropriating part
of it with regard to those towns in which the Corpora-
ti°n Act was not in force, and there were verylarge places
to that condition. lie had at first intended to adhere to
the practice of which they had an example in the corn-
issioners of sewers, and that they should be constituted
by direct nomination from the commissioners, but he
tlow proposed tseit in such towns and cities the com-
missioners should be elected by the rate-payers, and the
Crown on the representation of the Board of Health
Should nominate one-third of the number chosen by
tublie election. With regard to the application of this
ill to Ireland and Scotland, he hoped that those gentle-
alen who had the superintendence of the general affairs
of those countries would adopt the 13111. He did not
think it advisable to embody such a regulation for three
Countries in one Act. He proposed that as soon as this
Act was passed, all existing commissioners and trustees
should be abolished. His object was that all conflicting
Jurisdiction should cease, and for this purpose it was neces-
sary that all local commissioners and trustees should cease.
The recommendations went on to state that all works
should be undertaken by competent and impartial
Persons, complete surveys of the proposed works should
bee made, and all works performed by contract, end paid
for by the public board. These recommendations it was
Proposed by the Government to carry out in the pro-
posed Bill. Medical inspectors would also be appointed
ander the Act, whose duty it would be to visit all
Portions of the districts consigned to them. Local sur-
"eYors would also be appointed by the Town Council,
and approved of by the public board, to see that the
Works were all properly performed. An inspector of
nuisance would also be appointed. Provision would
t'so be made in the Bill to put down the smoke nuisance
be
the proper building and ventilation of the houses to
.11," built. With respect to a sufficient supply of water he
fought that it was a fact not to be disputed that tubular
aewers and a constant and sufficient supply of water were
absolutely
essential to procure good sewerage. The
dale,
Lord then went on to read reports from Dr.
Dr. Robertson, Mr. Hawkesley, and other me-
heal gentlemen, showing the insufficient supply, and
;e bad nature, of the water supplied to numerous
Places in the country, and urging the necessity of con-
'eying water to every house, end not to allow the per-
sons to make long journeys to the springs, or reservoirs,
for the purpose of obtaining it. It seemed, said the
Noble Lord, that they had not much advanced in this
bring water
since the days of Andromache, who had " to
water from llyperia's well." All these altera-
tions it could not be supposed could be carried out with-
out additional rates, but he did not suppose that the
benefits to be obtained under this Act would be dearly
purchased by the imposition of a small additional
ttte--tHear, hear.) The Noble Lord then went on
to t
allude to the calculations of Dr. Lyon, Dr. Play-
fair, Mr. Coke, Mr. Smith, of Deanstown, Hot-
-I.ade Mr. Gardiner, and other eminent persons.
sustained
the subject of the immense loss which the country
tat-flitted by the operation of the present inefficient
"oratory regulations, by the expenses of medical at-
..adence, premature deaths, and the rates of mortality,
1:d also the immense sums lust to the country by al-
, wing the refuse or manure of the country to run
he in water. In conclusion, the Noble Lord said that
drawn
could assure the House that the measure had been
bstawn up with the utmost consideration by the Govern-
ent, and with a sole desire to make it beneficial to the
tceterests of the public, and he would be most thankful
; Parliament,
measure, and the considerati.,e which it would
be
fro Parliaent, and the ultnea .action which
..e hoped it might obtain from the Cr e. n, should be
useful in carrying out to some degree the aim of the
"ernment. That aim was to diminish as far as in
them lay those noxious influences within their reach,
ii:tich now so intully uffficted the large majority of
inhabitants pa
of the towns and cities in this great
oast PLre, and which proved the never-failing source of
iveanliness and disease. To counteract theee noxious
nuences they proposed to let in a flood of pure air
4114 Pure water, and by thus doing, diminish, as far as
e a, could the prevalence of those epidemic diseases
igleb had now and then shown themselves with such
.e, s
.prial ravages. The object of the Government in the
esent measure was to wage war wherever they could
against filth, stench, and miasma, and its sure tenden-
ite and eonsequeneies—bodily weakness, langour, fever,
1,41 death-dealing pestilence—and thus, as they hoped,
't7 instrumental in lengthening the lives and adding to
te happiness of all classes of her Majesty's subjects in
these
realms. He would move for leave to introduce
the Bill.
tokr. MACKINNON thought the Government
rd entitled
the grey test p
measure, raise for bringing forwa the present
entia tire, and he begged to tender his thanks, on his own
Count
and those of his supporters, for the very -cum-
r hensive measure they had introduced. The NOble
ajorlt, was not, perhaps, aware of the great difficulties he
,x.:114(1 have to contend with in his contest against the
thoja_tieng corporations of the country, and more especially
hou_s of the metropolis; he, however, wished him most
as has tit all the success which the Noble Lorn's most
es_aoguine wishes in' ight lead him to anticipate. He should
to know the Noble Lord's intention with regard to
removalhe of cemeteries from large towns, and he hoped
would explain the intentions of her Majesty's Go-
truneent on this subject, as the proposed measure did
40t deal with it.
1)111412rd MORPETH said that a measure for that pur •
pose was under consideration.
kriheiEarl of LINCOLN said, that though his previous
derv:cdge of the subjects just brought under the consi-
toratton of the House by the Noble Lord, was such as
for
noble him to address himself to the various points re-
toV to, he would defer it to a future occasion
t Into tie subject at length. He would take
the !thetas, however, of sayini, witit regard to
6oservalons of he Hun. Member for Leamington
mor(kr. istue
kintion) that the proposed measure was not
coin eLhinprehensive than the one which he (Lord
' nad the honour to submit to the House about

twn years ;tn.,. He was of opinion that it interfered tno
i...oiutely with local itifdrs, and carded out ih6
of centralisation too far. The Noble Lord proposed to
constitute a new board of paid commissioners to carry
out the arrangements, the organ of which in the House
was to be the Chief Commissioner of Woods and Forests.
He believed the result of this arrangement would be, that
the Chief Commissioner would be involved in a multiplicity
of occupations to which he could not efficiently attend. lle
had a very great objection on principle to the construc-
tion of new boards. He thought, moreover, when it was
proposed to devise gr, at scheme for the good of the
country, and to- cbustruct a large machinery, they had
a right to km); what were the peculiar functions to be
discharged by that board. Before the second reading of
the Bill he would call upon the Noble Lord for an ex-
planation on this point.
Mr. A GLIONBY spoke in favour of the general pro-
vi.lons of the Bill. He, however, eousidered that a
Committee of the House of Commons was the very
worst tribunal that such subjects could be referred to,
by reason of the expense which they created. The rate-
payers themselves ought to manage their own business.
Mr. GREENE said that the private Bills on the
table of the House should be suspended until the pro-
visions of the Bill were carried out.
Sir WM. CLAY desired to add his approbation to
that of the Noble Lord opposite in favour of this Bill ;
he, however, considered that it was inexpedient to
include the metropolis. The Noble Lord would
have to dissolve some hundred local boards,
many of them possessing the confidence of their con-
stituencies and popular, he was of opinion, therefore,
that the Noble Lord had not calculated the difficulty of
the task which he had undertaken to perform. He
would support the Bill, but he would entreat that ample
time would be given to the great interests involved.
Mr. HUME hoped that, as soon as the House met,
the Noble Lord would forthwith proceed with the Bill,
fifteen days would be enough to give to the interests
affected. The object of the Bill was to afford accommo-
dation to those who had been neglected heretofore. He
considered it, therefore, the duty of the House to support
the Noble Lord,-in opposition :o those selfish interests
which always interposed between great and permanent
improvements.
Mr. BROTHERTON could not refrain from offering
his tribute of thanks to the Noble Lord for having
brought the measure forward. He had no doubt diffi-
culties would be met with, but as the Noble Lord must
have the co-operation of the whole country, he was sure
they would be overcome.
Mr. P. HOWARD thought that all private measures
upon this sOject ought to be withdrawn until this
general Bill was passed. He approved of the measure
as a whole, but he hoped the suggestion of his Hon.
Friend the Member for Lancashire would be adopted,
and that Government would announce before the recess
their intention with respect to the private measures
upon this subject.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
Mr. C. O'BRIEN asked the Secretary for Ireland why
the return of the number of extraordinary sessions held
in each barony in the county of Clare, under the Act 9
and 10 Vic., c. 107, with the schedules and other infor-
mation in the order of the 9th day of March particularly
mentioned, has not been laid on the table of this House,
in obedience to said order.
Mr. LABOUCIIERE said, the officers of the Board
of Works were most anxious to give the House every
information upon subjects connected with their opera-
tions, and no time would be lost in supplying the return
required. As yet, however, sufficient time had not
elapsed to admitof the return being got ready.
Mr. C. O'BRIEN moved that the several petitions
from the relief committees of Liscannor, Killilagh. and

Kilshanny, Ennistymon and Clooney, and Kilfeniira and
Kiltonarta, in the county of Clare (presented 23d Feb-
ruary and Ist and 9th March). be referred to the Select
Committee on Captain Wynne's case.—Agreed to.
Mr. HUME moved for returns from the Parlia-
mentary Trustees of the River Clyde and Harbour of
Glasgow, of the amount paid or agreed to be paid by
the trustees, on or before the Ist day of April, 1847, for
land and compensation, under the powers of the Act
3 and 4 Victoria, c. 118, passed the 4th day of August,
1840, and the amount paid for the construction of works
authorised by the said Act ; also, the number of square
yards of ground so paid for, or agreed to be paid. Of
the amount of tonnage or other dues, levied by the
trustees on steam vessels plying bstween the harbour of
Glasgow, and parts or places on the River or Forth of
Clyde, during the year ending the Bth day of July,
1846. Of the names of all ports and places from which
sailing vessels have arrived during the year ending the Bth
day of July, 1846 ; also the number of vessels, and
total tonnage, arriving from each port and place. Similar
return of departures. Of the name of each vessel arriv-
ing at or departingsfrom the harbour of Glasgow during
the year ending the Bth day of July, 1846; also the ton-
nage and draught of water cf each vessel, with the num-
ber of times that each vessel has arrived during that
period, and the average time she remained in harbour
between arrival and departure. Abstract account of the
revenue, expenditure, surplus, or deficiency, stating the
amount of the debt of the Trust, far each of the years
ending the Bth day of July, 1840, 1841, 1842, 1843,
1844, 1845, 1846. List of the number of vessels (both
sailing and steam), lying in the harbour of Glasgow for
each day of any seven consecutive days after this date
and previous to the 21st day of April, 1847.
Agreed to.
Mr. CORNELIUS O'BRIEN moved for copies of
the presentments made or passed by the magistrates
and rate payers of the Extraordinary Sessions held at
Corofin, for the barony of Inchiquin, in the county of
Clare, on the 30th day of November, 1846, and at
Ennistymon for the barony of Corcomroe in the same
county, on the 4th day of December in the same year,
both being for reproductive works, under Mr. Laboa-
chere's Letter of the sth day of October, 1846, and
which were sent to the Under Secretary for Ireland, or
to the Board of Works ; and though included in the
Order of the 11th day of February last, are not amongst
the papers laid on the table, pursuant to the said Order,
whether sanctioned or not.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said the return required had
already been moved for, and laid upon the table of the
House, but there might be some confusion of dates, and
he would make inquiry as to whether that were the
case or not.
Mr. C. O'BRIEN, under these circumstances, con-
sented to withdraw his motion for the present.
Mr. CHRISTIE, at the request of Sir G. Grey,
postponed his motion for returns connected with the ad-
ministration of the poor-laws.
ARMY SERVICE BILL.
Oa the question being put for going into Committee
on the Bill,
Sir H. DOUGLAS rose, pursuant to notice, to move
that the Bill be committed that day six months. The
Bill was disapproved of by the highest authority upon
subjects connected with the army. The Commander-in-
chief, it was admitted, altogether disapproved of it. Had
that distinguished personage not done so, perhaps he
should not have felt himself called upon to support it.
But it was disapproved of not only by the Com-
mander-in-Chief, but also by almost every eminent
officer in the army, and before he sat down he would
endeavour to show that they had good grounds for
doing so. In the first place he would consider what
effect this Bill would have upon the army generally.
Now in 1842 a Bill was passed for partially limiting the
time of enlistment, and then it was contended that the
measure would tend to add to the comfort of the soldier,
and increase the efficiency of the army, but experience and
subsequent results had proved such views to be erroneous.
Let them inquire into the new arrangements proposed.
What were the inducements to be held out to the re-
cruits? They were to be first enlisted for ten years, and
then if a soldier thought fit he might again enlist till he
had been in service twenty-one years, when he could
retire with a pension. If be retired at the end of ten
years he was subject4o be called out for twelve days
every year to be drilled along with those who were re-
ceiving pensions from the country. This drilling he
was called on to perform for the purpose of filling the
glorious post, it would seem, of standing behind stone-
walls to defend the country in the case of an
invasion. He considered it a perfect mockery
to suppose that such an arrangement would
secure a better class of soldiers, and he was sure it
would be far from proving so efficacions as the present.
At the end of the ten years there was to be no pension
given, a proceeding to which he could not give his
assent, for he considered whatever the time of enlist-
ment might be, that at the cud of it there ought to be a
pension. He thought that, if a soldier had served
twenty -one years, he should at least have a shilling a
day, and if for fourteen or fifteen years, fourpence
or sixpenee at least; but in no case should there
be any discharge without a pension. Let them
so this, and, in his opinion, they would do
more to elevate the army than by any other
course they could adopt. Such was the plan he would
recommend, and if be failed in arresting the progress of
the Bill in its present stage, then he should move amend-
ments to this effect in the Committee. While speaking
on this question, he might remark, that since he last ad-
dressed the House on the subject, he had received core.
munications from a great number of persons in the army
who all sought to have pensions allowed for a regular
period of service, but none of them seemed to be in
favour of the short period of service without a pension.
Now while they talked of getting a superior class of sol-
diers by this Bill, he would remark that it would not be
possible for them to get better ones than now. At
present the army was recruited from the very best
sources. He found that out of every 1,000 recruits,
623 were agriculturists, who made the very best soldiers.
About 300 out of every 1,000 were from the artizan and
mechanic class, who made good soldiers, but tot so good
as the former. 43 out of every 1,000 were shopmen and
clerks, anti these made very bad soldiers.—(Hear, hear.)
Gentlemen's sons, professional gentlemen, licentiates of
law, &e., made the very worst soldiers of all. In fact,
the higher they went in the scale of society, the
worse soldiers they made, as it was found that
those from out of the better classes were those
in the decadence of life, who enlisted on ac-
count of the difficulties they were placed in.
The Hon. and Gallant Member then proceeded to read
extracts frord certain letters, to show the bad effects
which had resulted from the passing of Mr. Wyndhara's
limited enlistment Act.' The reason why the British
soldier was so superior, in physical energy, to the sol-
dier of the Coes.ipental nations, was, that the conscrip-
tion of these latter countries gave no liberty of selection
while the v.ilantary enlistment of the agricultural la-
bourer of this country afforded every opportunity for
the enlistment of the best men. lie need only,. in sup-
port of this asserth)n, instance the many cases. in which
they had driven thrice there own number before them.
He believed that thg,.number of men who volunteered
last year to remain in India was upwards of 2,000. The
soldier desired to remain in India because he was a
sol-
diets but he thought that they ought not to permit him
to do so if they were to adopt the limited term ot enlist-
ment. Supposing, for instance, a regiment in an un
healthy climate—the West Indies, for examvle—they
would actually be incapacitating the man for his future