The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-09 00:00:00

IN ; EDITION'

Ilb),N,
zex,,,,,
~ti,e4,iittehrerforthie,i,u,sLoou.ry,ll,,ol,,,oeho: the amendment nor the
had secindesvistiettn,
0710,0101V_
14„ '"rt'i,ei_erel.tii the House to return to that
passim
of
the
Act
or N,l'ii.ef wt-hich tail existed previous to the heiteir, _ case,
that eh ea leel felt c •rvinced that that a, , I ,-)j.' the
no
that en they came to look the subject ruby _ h4O ea(l;',!4 ll,' found hold enough to stand up intmetrle,artn,
inllnouesneti
to the iiirr,lz, hims ,Ifthe friend of the 0
*a' fart 'ti'l
f the country,
Parliarmont the restorationror ofm thatan system which
e,, es' Injurious as wasting, the resources o _
_.e
was
st_E,
that t
massing°Pttres and degrading the peasant, y.
the
sys..,,n_uvof
p4ri,h° would recommend a retain to the t i
aral krfoekteh'e labourer
to
sr grarel.pits. He was sure that no man would wi,h
shlehe the return of the system laboer°(liied lobo. rer to parish aneiion,
hi; he to the highest bidder, without consultingd il::s4n
r:.:
~:i,:la:raics:,l,t:vi enf,:rman.eforced
b Idleness,
'tuts)
:iv,
that hvh:(`.'ini
little. eimnipnittel•tddauTotil:h:::ndv,htlh':s
Ifisk":l7 industrioe;
aho had saved a little yittat.ice
.11.ty's
the
1;t:n erder to furnish rnonev
I, triad been
'le' .°r-ill"Ps. He was speaking of fact' w--'`•
evidence before the passing of thellarAefut,o4in
ft,,lttoriii:if.,,..e),:rt:eit,airtab,,tti:2(u,thrsee.rle.,
stat
ta.:tisnpe b that,t.:h,.teil),,seihtoautdaht,tinrof
money to
,dtilnibnii,ela',eeinntathaoc:otn.ubctae.hhai i
it 'the.
l'ilpt,,r la3'inß by their. monee,as it was , nly saving t ile)elme;:;tr-hte'elin:
:141't Y. (If "rfrttret. t . 'ilic•ehlioarldigtiroat'iluoafll;bih.el'ilul srseidanucamnd the
l'ilis i„'errs Lo ma'n 1 ad to
fended. Hi+ eel ieipat ions had been
h4ll4"titi'd hY the delend'e • no one had te•cemmended a
lrreturn
. fat' P'trn 1-*:‘*":l' his Ilimourable Friend the o 1.1141 inshury had said, as for the system formerly,'
ae:_tnistftintmegt-..
thhatth "ttrd to think of going Leek to that. It It wa
,1 . i 1
triten„se'Lo,uoellitt not. to return to thati syls,,(ei tell, hier,dhiroet'cfrd ettlrel
, -tesied ' ,tee great care rot to be
trstedti, raethoils to rl- that which no ma i had. openly yen-
leer, i;',Pe`atirrieed, If thee would not avowedly "Itle tale'e s- stem which had been put an end whehh eare not to break down the principle of the. systemre.
t 0 iny I ‘B. e3n•lt*, It. :het they
itqle the
been substituted in its place, and by so doing,
":111,00ai former system.-(Hear, hear.) He wafs sure that
''iroett,e,d be the consequence of adopting some
o te
AN if ''.bY liis mrii Friend the Member forFinsbury..the
Ce,erni
.it •were not for the security afforded by
4"1/4t tTencrs re-teria' f many of the former abuses
p„ . ' --""on ' oof that there could
~,^0 safety i c'e• If he wanted. a pr
,IsnStiez Co r. the new system if an end were were put to the
ant thin,' more de-
itve tha4",:?tne.seon, lie could not ask o.
Baronet who had
'iii,' =Ken L'Tp'eeh of the Right Hon.
opinions, from
sto omen • !at Right Hon. Baronet. whose
tre ~Ariet,.ttwia,titeellti
tit-, heldtvhn inonit‘hat House were enhtidtleohleetno
five years
IWhltlih'''t Alinister of a former- Government, in the.a ,speech
_
'a ei t 0 4'l made that night, while lie was eleitlettl).. I a
Ptiet,i ta any return to the lermer, system, had laid doss nb ,
ttep,iPte blebW, if ad- I'would, little by Lille, and step, y
to. 4evitabi,, ?ptee, .
}"l4tiled ~, teed to its restoration. The Right Hon. Geritle-
it to'haakivthat in the Dill then before the House some provision
1, e 2 ,t, e been introduced for a relaxa, ion of the rules pro-
'''i 'es° s"e aminit ' of out -door relief, and although he
toi,,:i -ITliht have s'rationex.,eout...-cl abstained from those p.er- Ictioht,t'elis on th breeen •'• c - ' in which less responsible
ie-' aid ,i , c ,ommissioners t
, :tan 0, , loulged, yet he had s v iv censured their con-
:,,4110t, a''' ',I ant of judament exhibeitte'rd: by
_them,
r I in the county
in refusing to
' .etit for roltosition of the Board '‘tethor affording out -door reliefof Guardians in
recent severe
Jot(irartiis.• 'O, it appeared to hisn d Howtot•k)tttilelantt the
pert!tonPrs had actiee; with a just and properdiscre r
of
tie Ilieh7lY Prtsueded that if they adopted the
makeprinciple
use of
k*Pular, ",,,,II°o• Baronet, it would be, to
eild
it eurose,
oils e driv putting in the fine eellegteeorfetsht
la, Ysteei e, (ri on until the coin]
itlete,, • as brought about, by which the re wedge,'which
.h
thatich
the •1" the S!otith of England had been ma
ti ‘‘friteoration of
ereadtebtutelkpeonfdethnet
Gait said the parish pth te the at there was no occasion,
pay-table..
The
in those Right
lcases,on tßoarr e° --
Oleli!,' kr ~ t'st or the workhouse, as there could be. no
tdhoautbtthoef
lep,',Y of the applicants.'lt appeared to him .
OeiljyY,itali-earienl3tar.Onet,ininilkig that observation, had taken a
ope.'a th,
„,‘'' ',MY of the subject ; one objectaosfeegrtivatinng
is,antws ctrichouse, had certainly been to if reliefti,e
0_ It was
tfi
ing relief,
I,°t it ere:t,really ,in want of it. But that was not at all, it
'le effete produced on the partei
tinat qf th e (fleet of example held out to ot
.ierer.se.eog:,ivving relief
If they
tilt, gat: w_Orkhouse, which was the great obj
li:f ketie,sl-.'"ef out of the w orkhouse, they estcvoitailii
Idyilfiniirnriseh.
e Lifer liithieing other persons not only not to p
it e ti.,,,
pbeforehand
eh ti.ey Iv "1 wented it, but to ty,ke
It
te. qf et, "e net placed in a situation o'f' necessity.
' of seeking re- I
li,t,taset'at importance that the working classes
.should
tii,, It
Rat to think lightly or trivially
to aged in :
~,,, idea rhw s right that they should be e
kl 4 brforeatt, "ery saciifiee and every exertionnt ° shouldof
others. b e
1!
Nile tie,',icY would consent to live on the bounty
tl,qte• re ~i_lp her • adverting to the argument of the Hon.
ta'' illae3,l: rinsburv, that. the condition of the
flaw. wtarsastubcehr
tei,aßo it,t`er,s°Os wire ready to undergo great sueerittn
that
tiZ tilleedite workhouse. He seemed to be of opinion
1;14 be '•
u,e, given as a r, atter of course, and t itatt these
I,eti el terninttodtinee,
6 painful or distressing. attendire,agrs . II 1,1,4 tot4id,r lae Hon. Member that, until late years, eitpheia'd- !
42,,,y were the pride and boast of England that, her .
and
rit'ael in
tlethe most well-conducted, industrious.
trie,,tediseish
rw',old, until their great,
down
ncttion to re-
for two
eq,4 'PS after relief had been
IN ;serer
e cif Elizabeth, the
rcolch and stigma, which
ti,, Y tl,.,itl,had been considered a.
!il. ratier%f" Peasant sought to avoldre.lll3; the injudicious admi-
h relief.
I:aat tbs.. thel'oor-laws that feeling had be, n broken doss n.
le:city irsi` tittle had no objection to receive par
rt,itther time
rank of life, and in the highest as well as the
th:,ktiotte std*ere those who were poor, was attended
te,t`oleel%,"tress, but in all clas.ses every
lie
,qcolue to Undergo great suffering and man of indepen-
k4
.hottotiiit to became a dependant upon the bountyortanee
as
privationnbfenfotrheerhse.
tioaateiiie
,rie shown that it was of equal p
to' Niter
ti,'') others, as well as a test of. want,im that no
oounte-
":;,4rfel "Id
be afforded to able bodied persons.
ti,lotette effect of relieving in the workhouse, and. in the
Itai laitoes "IY, was this-that it not only induced
great- tl, •
lrett ers themselves to make great efforts, but it also
. , , ,eir
`4 etlrtg firinPloyer and wealthier neiehhours to is
If
lah,,Nesk - them before they came to that alternative
el_
elier • "ew that he would hare to maintain au able- odi d
41e hitt", the workhouse he would make great efforts to pro-
toeee,lcteheerarl'el_.°Ynient. out of doors.
.The Right Hon. Baronet
vilii.'Y iti N.,.h.'" Tarnworth, had said that Devonshire,tythine
e, t.h e, , leh wages were the lowest, was also the cnouynoler tl,l4ttYls"`E'ollorirelic-f had been more common thariina
eras the
tile 1, rotn.,,! and- He would sta:e a case
.which
teen "quasi, of it. In the county which he had
Ritslitef,re ttfili, represent,i he was hauptp-ydentro
relief
f thaticas
li'l,,,at,id otf the able-bodied-ulraewr, nnoor out-door
relief ever given
1,,417 teis,wraage,
wand the consequence was that, instead
ektirole poi,
,li'le, they received in Devonshire, t en:a-
el, Nlllfourt alien of that counts was in a station of
England
n
istl.'„P;lte :411 tleetnteneciesisna(rieisP;'nofdleinteceaerriesmiduinA icnheaalp)aerrt, where einegfl fuel, ,;‘,*lltif '4'Prtant artic'e • s -•r : much cheaper than in the
''''r
ti En'gland, warre's s' "a"
three 3 or four shillings a week.
e ikerlhl„a" in bevo'rlire 'erHee was convinced that it was ill-
4iatte e,h.rtevolence to grant relief out of the workhouse, and. a
Lithe 1404,h tended to lower and degrade the genet al condition
teeth
thee:log poptilation.-(Hear hear.) So general had
tv",ethrti'ent 01 the House to the principle' of the measure that
I,!titeY 4Y t'i'e
to'greater length great e discussion ; he would
Ille• the ,-)".e had heard with regret what had fallen
le;,iacoth '''ght Honourable Baronet the Member for
11,,s '' to e re,sPecting the term for which it was proff
eqYNtetti:itinue the Commissioners.-(Hear, hear.)
lloti4,e th -,';', a good one ' and calculated to pat an end to the
te,,*lehe,i",'° system it was worthy the attention of the
So,' to the old
it was'not sound policy to act in such a inanh-
tl,liekii.iu'vf'iice the minds of the public that there woul,dheet kniteis's. 'ion the system if it could not be foreseen s
it.
lamb) Le, mission c,c1.1 cease to be necessary. He thought
),4 ii get
(4R1-eat enourag-ement to that most mischievous agi-
Ivi tII doers if th -
'4 t". 131, ' ley were to adopt t.he suggesion oftlie
%eh 111 )e (Met. The altering the time to a. less period.
ii.'4l3.l,''' would throw a douCt upon the certainty of its
opted . Isis7,l(l enemrage agitation-
-1101;,/'Why not make it permancnt.-(Cheers.)
t'Z'bjeet;lrt„'lC would have‘no objection to that there ssv.e, r,e
Ireritpi elle* ;',u,_e effected by them, to which It was impos 1 iii e
l'inl "41 t ' `ln' Were to take care that the law was enforced
1V h,tt° t.tile intention of the Legislature, and he rem-
tetiti tesporignhti that Boards of Guardians ought to be
,a;t„ aPpealL'e It, some authority, to whom the poor
ieileraters
4, against any abuse of authority by the ad-
tsemsdvi,e °' the law. It was of a great advantage to have
l'hi %oil 4 eases of doubt, and immense sums had been
stltit4llel?!tt,,lithlebeir, interference in cases. of disputed settlement,
lOitli Ct ing do;tu -3 , ern must have been spent in litigation.
hh, ‘ Rot, nbe must remark upon an_ error into
tei espett. arable Friend, the Member for lonsbury, had
ti 444 lee. ~,, itig the rules of the Commissioners. The ex-
ttal riai;s defective, h 5 would admit,' in only requiring
"(etie,,h! tsetiet° bie submitted to the Secretary of State, so
sof th sih va . ptrtieular rule might be enacted by the Commis-
-4 "4111'1'1"l'i0115 without being so submitted. The object
ii,l4,Pil ere,tit" the new Bill as he read it was to put an end to
l'it 1Y Were • t° Prevent those rules which, although not tech-
the 4%44441 faet general rules from being adopted without be-
'',4l't,"ll ehetr°
Per[
consideration of her Majesty'sGovernelent.
jee'l'eet tr, Part which it was necessary to advert to was
,"to 'het t°
hurial ground*, and as it created seme prejud-
tr,°,4.ticilf','llac4 t4.!'"(t, when it was thought that ae:lauisne had
1,.1 j.„4,t fc: ;re
thel-ir jiarneeveent the poorben beig buried
buried, he thought it
!,11% ioter:dedhe fr
of
fttol4rs load
measure to say, that the clause
'l'4'
it
'''''l try
halesa verYel'nffe,a'nt effeet; that clause had
tile 141-tiesill'c'e- With the intention('t-e of meeting an evil much
'e Otaryti; Ile trusted, therefore, that it would not go to
t't.tl iaUni•s at the slightest intention existed on the
.part of
.41,[11 their,4,',"" to Prevent the settled poor from being bu-
-41 ,S.,s n parish chur •11- -ard He trusted the House
lita41::11-' hiNl kr I,a inn. c •3. i.iit so long, but he could
espeer 4hate 1,5 :6 ocu x
,e.steg his opinion
these)
At
rneas ._e Without) e. 1 .
iittie'v^ital I:esa'd' i'll'
gsairl 111uartejt. was not his intention to opose
t)44 I. t.p Were hi'd'e Bili, although he thought many of
t„ I,? vvtth, , objeionable. veto trusted that
~,e
h"se r qUsteit ',,gi,e up the clanse relativ burial-ground
I,f, !,111 11 I'4o that the clause relative to children being
lis't'''titil,thr),toarents would be- considerably modified. In
th.caind" (4 th,
_'l.,,sent• Act was diametrically opposite to. the
neckinglnonr ,tli,fuu of Elizabeth. He considered the refusal
feetethat it fret cc hard, suet he could Pot help
l,,trig" sons's,' 'ere'',.42 tirne7to time, the Bill was to be re
I,4ie If , ~c., on it might be found that a labour
tt, di h onsehel ti ed with success. In the present feeling
'ttl iit h, saw no chalice of the labour-test being ap-
'lt noel
"-111(1 not but think that if it could be ap-
at; th,,l;csUlts l'relAr re, i •
the
Pee', the Alth 1..1 ations, it would lead to
t,„ien_ ee (>1.1p,11 he did nut intend to vote
:ttlq te 1 tq the
_'ec.orld reading of the Rill, his ob-
y't,sei,e
warn, eesure remaihed unaltered, and if he thought
eelOtoell,ete it; to Pass in its present shape, he should cer-
tt
._fl re,tv_ Pgroeneeding further; but as he was in hopes
tr
t!l.74i,ii,e4itlt alterations in Committee, he should not
Ihi 4e liiit weilid the second reading.
iisl site,_ t•itoess _ 'toot give his vote for the second reading
te: es ti7edtts e(Trit"Dani.,c,the hope that it would be consider-
ts,,,'t, the „eorrieti,si " • He could not agree to the exten-
hili sit i 41er,b -on for ten years. The Rieht Hon. Ba-
-41 411 ' er for 1.- '••
' 'the rate of
et a, , fr,,,,,ii., .ernworth, in alluding to
341/41 eel that - le, tuba" the wages were extremely low,
qtl tbke .' the
ti,, e „,_ le ah„n_e,xlienditure in the poor-rates was there
~,i'tlee thTtrity et."',l;st any other county. In the eastern parts
kessyas, kw th,r:',ent, there was icss out.door relief given
he'llt ritiest frorn. In any other part of the kingdom. The
hitter ihrteett
elnivti,elee to fifteen shillings ; they %etre now at
0 (4, '4 it had Itg,i, and the condition of the poor was
kip'tie • Ili , been for year, i• t In a large parish in
Secec s) nei hhe
,s :s .)43 * , } I been
te ", the •" the a ;C '''."' 000 n. great auvantage lac
~, Ne. 'e year ,PP !cation of the workhouse test. In that
ay 4 Seel e. . uefore this Bill passed, there were between
they flkl ti I"tY lore Ist Yre iouel, t., 'wets constantly employed on the high-
tset.'cored iiio, nt y ,1151 nothing but sit on their barrows,
et.,,' withte" wages than. the honest and industrious
I,,:a"Ultegeetletri! two years after the Bill had passed,
fatedte `listn gett:.,Ts residing in that parish, had very great
,i, 0,
~tr,'F, workmen to work in his garden. He e-
,kietid' niettstr`.'itleet of the present measure was to encou-
k'"ee °tet, made, 1s labourer ; and as he hoped to tee many
at. the
of
iti Committee, he would pnot now further
.11.4 e
n.
t,tIRA than ' ti,,, 41ii,hlt he Lill,ii) expressing his general approval of the
th " Inad l'Eij
it tia.
44. t• by the t
NFL
a1~.41 he regretted that no allusions had
‘:\ hi
Wotild have the effectdp of annihilating
etutile Lord who haproposed this Bill to
so many
,--_,

parishes under the Gilbert corporation. It was the constant
prayer of the Poor-law Commissioners that theseparishes might
be brought under their management. They had enel 'avoured
to persuade the Noble Lord and the House that it was neces-
ssry, in order to secure uniformity. They had not she Yr'
that the administration of relief to the poor had been in-
judicious or improper ; but they had stated that they
were mis.aken as to their own interests as well as
the interest of those who were and r their care. It. vat no-
torious, however, that the administration of relief in the Gil-
bert co poration hal given the greatest satisfaction. No
mismanagement had been stated. They simply wished not
to be interfered with by the Poor-law Commissioners, and
he trusted that the House would not agree to the dissolution of
these unions without the consent of the guardians. On a
future oec tsion he should be prepared to substantiate what
' he had advanced in favour of these unions, and to convince
the House of the impropriety of sanctioning any interference
with them by the Poor-law Commissioners.
Mr. W. ATT WOOD rose and said, he was one of those
who intended to vote against the second reading of the Bill,
and, therefore, came under the special reprobation of the
Noble Lot d the Membsr for Northumberland. It was a re-
markable circumstance, that scarcely a single Member had ex-
pressed his opinion in support of the Bill, wt o hue not said that
he looked forward to amendments and ameliorations. He
would ask what hope thri e was of amendments and arnelioras
tioas after the tone which hail been adopted by the Noble
Lord the Member for Northumberland? Upon all occasions
when this subject wes discussed, their had come forward a
number of Honourable Members declaring, that upon many
• points they d'sapprove I both of the principle of the Act
• and of the manner in which it hail been carried into effect. But
they stated at the same time that they did not intend to offer
any opposition to the measure, because they hoped that in con-
sequence of the discussions that would take place in that House
the severity of the Bill would be mitigated. Now, he asked
lion. Members whether from the moment that those discus-
lions first took place there had been introduced into the conduct
of the Commissioners any one amelioration; whether, instead
of administering its provisions with greater mildness they had
not given unequivocal proofs of their determination to add to
the severity of the Bill, and to carry it into operation with all li
the harshness it would allow. When the Noble Lord (the
Member for Northumberland) taunted Members who opposed
this Bill, by asking if there were any of them who were ready
to support the old system, he (Mr. Attwood) would
throw back the taunt, and ask if there were any
Members of that House who would support this Bill
without amendment? He would ask whether, if the Bill were
presented to the House without any hope of amendment or
mitigation, it would have that majority in its favour which he
feared he would be condemned to witness on that occasion
If they referred to the Report, they would.find a determination
to carry into effect all the regulations upon which the disap-
probation of the Committee had been must unequivocally ex -
pressed. The Committee had proposed to shorten and
limit the powers of the Commissioners. (Hear, hear,
hear.) They recommended that there should be an ame-
lioration of the mode in which the law was administered,
anti that many modifications should take place in the law itself.
None of these recommendati ns were attended to by the Noble
Lord in bringing in the Bill. There was no hope of amelio-
ration by allowing the 811 to proceed to a Committee, and he
hoped that the House would not allow itself to be deluded by
the expectation of improvement, to consent to the second read-
ing of the Bill.
Sir EDWARD FILMER wished to give the reasons by
which he was influenced in deciding that he should not vote
either upon the original motion or upon the amendment that
had been moved.—(Cries of "Divide, divide.") He could
not oppose the motion which professed to be for the amendment
of an Act which be believed to require amendment. But
on looking into the Bill, he found that it was not an amel ora-
tion of the present law.—(Divide, divide.) He was favourable
to the allowance of relief out of doors to persona labouring
under temporary distress, and capable, when opportunity
offered, of resuming their industrious habits, and maintaining
themselves without any burden to the parish.—( Divide, divide. )
He bilieved that the -law required amendment, he could not
vote against the second reading of tl.e Bill, nor could he vote
for the motion of the Noble Lord, because he was satisfied the
Bill would not effect the object professed.
Mr. LANGDALE, who rose antidst loud cries of " Divide,"
said he would not trespass on the House, if it had not been for
the course which he had taken in respect to this Bill. lie
had been a Member of a Committee which agreedd to a strong
resolution en the subject of permitting the inmates of work-
houses to attend divine worship on the Sabbath. He was
desirous that Members of the Established Church slued I be
permitted to attend to the service of their Church on that day.
But he was also desirous that persons of other religious persuasions
should have the same facilities afforded them, and he took that
opportunity of expressing his determination to press for the in-
troduction of a provision in this Bill tor that purpose.
Being satisfied of the general utility of the measure he should
vote for the second reading —(Cries of " Divide, &tide. )
Mr. JAMES said it was not on his own account but on ac.
count of those whore he had the honour to represent, that
he was desirous to address the House, in a few words upon
this question. In his county the New Poor-law had worked
most beneficially, and the unpopularity with which it had
been at first received had entirely disappeared.—(Cries
of " Oh," and " Divide, divide, divide.") It had
been the custom of that county to give out-door
relief to able-bodied labourers in the shape of money,
clothing, and medical attendance to an extent which the rates
by no means justified—( Hear.) There was a system of let-
ting out the poor to the lowest bidder, at what was called a
Dutch auction, and persons were known to receive them so
low as 15d. a week per head. It was well to talk about torture
and starvation, but what greater system of torture could there
be than that which prevailed under the old Poor-law 1 Under
the present system the evils which were formerly so glaring
were almost entirely remedied. The aged, the sick, and the
indigent poor were better taken care of, and their children
were better educated.—(Oh, and divide.) He did not mean
to contend that the measure was perfect; it had improved the
comforts of the poor, and had promoted in many ways their in-
terest. A large number of habitual paupers had been converted
into industrious labourers. A reduction of from 25 to 40 per
cent. in the parish expenditure had been effected—Divide,
divide.) He thought the Bill good and useful to the honest
and industrious, who ought not to be taxed for the support of
the idle and profligate.—(Divide, divide. )
Mr. FIELDEN complained of the Report of the Committee
of last year, which he contended was a packed and partial
Committee. It was proved to demonstration before that
Committee that the rates of labour were not raise t by the
operation of the new Poor-law. Now if the wages of labourers
were depressed instead of raised, the law must be au unjust one, •
and would bring destruction on its framers. He should cer-
tainly vote for the amendment of the Hon. Member, and would
throw all the obstacles in his power in the way of the passing
of such a measure.—( Cries of" Question.")
Lord J. RUSSELL said after the statements of the Hon. •
Member for Finsbury, who had stated that the Bill was founded
of a savage and ferocious principle, and after the statement of
the Hon. Member for Oldham, who wished for an inquiry into
the rate of wages, but would oppose the measure in every shape
and on every occasion, where there was so much of declamation
and so little of argument, he must be permitted to say a few
words before the House went to a division. The Hon. llom-
-ler for Sussex had disputed his ( Lord John Rus-
sell's) assertion that the Bill was founded on the 43d of
Elizabeth, and had quoted Blackstone on that point,
but with every respect for that high legal authority
he (Lord John Russell) maintained that such was the
fact. He held the same principle as the law of Elizabeth, that
with regard to the old, the infirm, and the helpless, relief was
to be given by the State ; and that with regard to the able-
bodied, relief was also to be given ; but in that case they were
to ascertain whether destitution existed or not. The statute
of Elizabeth pointed out the mode in which that was to be
done, and the law was applicable to the state of society which
then existed. The population was wandering and unset-
tled, and the wool of Englend was sent into Ger-
many to be manufactured. Now, the circumstances
of the present times being extremely different, the same tests
of destitution could not be applied in the present day. The
very same principle had also been acted upon, in 1795, by the
Duke of Wellington, when in command in India, in the case
of a famine. On that occasion the very same principles, as
nearly as possible, were acted upon as were followed out by
the Poor-law Commissioners in framing the present measure.
He directed that, in all cases of great suffering and distress,
relief was to be administered, and his officers carried these in-
structions into effect. They were divided into two classes—
those who were able, and those who were unable to work ; and
in the former case the parties were to be taken into hospital.
and to undergo the discipline of that establishment. It had
been said by the Hon. Member opposite (Mr. Darby) that the
test of hard labour oust of tee workhouse was a better one
than that recommended by the Commissioners, but that was a
question which was in a great measure to be ascertained by ex-
perience, and, looking at it merely theoretically, and as the
arguments had been applied, he should say that it was
a test likely to be fully equal to that of the workhouse test.
Experience, however, was the other way, and the opinions of
men best acquainted with the subject was in favour (tithe pre-
sent system, and their evidence had produced such an effect
upon the Commissioners that they had adopted the suggestion.
The first, question the House had to consider was as to the re-
lief to be given to the destitute, and the next was whether they
could, in giving that relief, make any great relaxation in the
mode. In the w hole course of the discussion of that night, though
he had heard many hard terms applied, yet he had heard no
suggestion of a practical nature which he could adopt with
a conviction that it would not bring them back to the old state
of things. The Hon. Member for Rent thought that in cer-
tain seasons of great severity the poor might be relieved in
their own houses, but if the rule was once broken in upon lie
should be glad to know where the line was to be drawn, and
they would have the plea of destitution put forward the follow-
ing year, although there might be less severity iu the season,
and the evils of the old system would again return upon them.
He argued with the Noble Lord the Member for Northum-
berland that there was great danger of suck a result.
He would pass over the general idleness and demoralization
generated by the old system. In the original Report on that
system, which received the sanction of the Bishop of London,
the Bishop of Chester, and many other Members of that. Com-
mission of Inquiry, who were not in the present Commission,
larious cases were stated in which the labourers there men-

tioned what were their own views on the subject. The
Nob.e Lord here proceeded to read several extracts
from the Report, confirming his views of the subject,
and went on to say, that under the old system the honest and
industrious labourer become broken-hearted. He (Lord John
Russell) asked them then not to revive that system. He be-
lieved that the greatest benefit they could confer on English
labourers, would be to give them the greatest facility that could
be possibly conferred by any law, to enable them to obtain em-
ployment for themselves. The contract between the labourer
And the employer was a fair one—it was a fair exchange, and
the Libourtr felt himself independent. Every law then which
enabled the labourer in this country to earn wAges and obtain
more employment—to find new sources of employment, and to
obtain those situations which he looked to—every such law was
useful ; but, on the contrary, every endeavour that
would have for its object to reduce the labourer
to a state of dependence, they might . depend
upon it, that though they might obtain some
popularity by such an endeavour—although it would be
lauded by many as showing great benevolence—they would
he, in fact, but destroying the independence of the labourer.—
. . _ .

( Hear, hear. ) If they would weaken his strength, anti under-
mine his moral force, that was the course for them to pursue.
They would be laying the foundation of an overgrown popu-
lation, whom the law could not restrain—whom even religion
would be hardly able to awe into obedience--and they would
find that they were most certainly ruining the foundation of
society.—(Hear, hear.) He would not now, on the occasion
of the second reading, discuss the details of the measure. He
would be extremely sorry to see the House adopt the sug-
gestion of the Honourable Gentleman of limiting the
power of the Commissioners to five years. It was quite
impossible their conduct should be subject to much real
blame without the Ministers of the Crown being able
to prevent the recurrence of such conduct. But on the other
hand, if the House weakened their authority, they would give
strength to those who were opposed to the law, and spread
reports that it was no use yet awhile to obey their orders, but
put off obedience from year to year, saying in alittle while they
shall see the law repealed—that there is universal dissatisfaction
for some reason or other, which reason they do not give ; and
rr
theaetatlhaotf itibneivlearwsaLdi( shaetiasrf,aelien will be sure to occasion the
thatbthuet
bpello
%yo uers
believede
ot of decithede
law
woon n
wouldrat 111:esi
dor hear.) It
st
milutute,
ewo
htioa
of the
stitftbonrreei
nut
gllciytehu
nimesedciri os,esTiausnino, f:
if they extended it for ten years. He thanked the House for
the attention with which they had listened to the subject, and

he was quite willing w]i;‘n the Bill went into Committee to
consider every proposition that could be made; but while he
wished to consider them lie slum!il look with great
jealousy on any propo,iti6n which wou d have a tendency to
break down or impair the efficiency of whathe considered •o be
a most humane and benevolent law.—( Cheers. )
The Ilothw then (:ivided, when the numbers Were—
For the second reading
For the amendment -1
Majority
_

Mr. WAKLEY gave notice, that an the mo:ion for goiig
into Committee on the Bill, he would move that it be divided
into two Farts.
CUSTOMS DUTIES.

Mr. L A BOUC II ERE postponed the Committee on Customs
Dutie. until Friday next, when he hoped to be able to
it forward at a.i early hour.
Mr. BERNAL brought up the Report of the Committee of
Supply.
Aft•T a few words from Mr. HERMES,
The resolutions were agreed to and the Committee co Was
and Means was fixed for Wednesday.
The AT ToRNEY-GENERAL for Ireland obtained leave
to being hi a bill to abolsh arrest in personal actions com-
menced by process of subpoena at the Law Side of the Court
of Exchequer in Ireland. Th Learned Gentleman also ob-
tained leave to being in a hilt to f‘lcili!ate the recovery of
arrears of Tithe Ct.mposition in Ireland, vested in her Ma
jetty under an Act pissed in the Ses,ion of Parliament holden
,n the Ist and '2,-1 years of the reign of her present Majesty,
intituled, " An Act to Abolish Compositions for Tithes in Ire-
land, and to substitute Rent-charges in lira thereof."
The ATTOR N;EY-GENERAL brou”ht in the Admini,-
tration of Justice lid!, which was read a first, and ordered to
Le read a second time on Monday.
The other Orders of th.? Day were then disposed of, and the
house adjourned at One o'Ctock.

AMERICAN COLONIZITION

SOCIETY.

Agreeably to public notice, the Rev. R. R. Guiley;
Secretary to the Amer lean Colonization Society, addressed
an audience on two suecessive a venings ( Thursday and
Friday) last week, in the Egyptian 11.01, Piccadilly, ex-
plaining the views and enlarged benevolence of this So-
ciety towards all classes of the coloured race in America
and Africa, and ril; ing to various objections urged
.igaisist it. At the chic of the second lecture, Mr. Gurley
was invited by one of his auditors, Mr. John Scoble, of
the Anti- Slavery society, to enter on a debate with him.
The challenge was readily accepted for Monday evening,
when a highly interesting discussion took place,
which was adjourned to Wednesday, Daniel Lister,
Esq , pr, siding on both occasions. At the close of Mr.
Gerley's reply to M;. Scoble's first speech on W. dnesday,
the latter, offend, d at the course of the Chairman,
(which was su,taieed by the meeting), suddenly left the
elatform. Mr. Gurley was requested to proceed in his
statements. At the conclusion of his remarks, on the
motion of Dr. Costello seconded by A. B. Wright, Esq.,
the meeting expressed their thanks to Mr. Gurley for the
valuable facts and views he had so eloquently submitted to
their consideration, and adjourned till Friday evenieg. At
this third meeting, Mr. Lister having been agiain called to
the chair, Dr. Costello reviewed in a brief, but pertinent
and able manner, the course of the several meetings. The
Chairman also made a few observations expressive of his
regret that anything should have occurred which should
have been deemed by Mr. Scoble cause sufficient to
render his retreat necessary. Mr. Gurley then, at the
request of the meeting, submitted various facts and docu-
ments vindicating the American Colonization Society ail('
the Colony of Liberia from objection and reproach, and
showing its tendency to suppress the African Slave
Trade, and introduce civilization and Chrieianity among
the native population. Elliott Cresson, Esq., followed
Mr. Gurley with many facts and statements in corrobo-
ration of his views, and of the beneficent policy of the
Society.
Lieutenant-Colonel H. Dundas Carr pbell, late Governor
of Sierra Leone, then rose and expressed in a very earnest
and emphatic manner, his regard for the American Colo-
nization Society and from his personal observations on the
coast of Africa and reports from Et Wish naval officers, who
had visited Liberia, his nonfiction of the good character of
the people of that colony and of the great benefits to be an-
ticipated front the multiplication of similar establishments.
Celonel Campbell then moved a resolution, " That the
American Coloniz itien Society is deserving of high ap-
probation, and that this Society and the colony of Litnria
are contributing essentially to the suppression of the
African Slave Trade, and the civilization of Africa. Mr.
Guest, in secooding the notion, suggested by way of
amendment, '• That in the lectures and debates to which
the meeting had listened for several evenings, Mr. Gurley
bad triumphantly vindicated the American Colonization
Society from alt reproach, and established its character as
a pure and benevolent institution."
PETTY Vat:on/is, Esq., proposed to add, " That the
American Colonization Society is worthy of the approba-
tion and support of English philanthropy. The original
resolution of Colonel:Campbell, and the amendments, were
then unanimously adopted. A Committee was appointed,
and a subscription opened on the motion of Dr. Hodgkin,
to carry forward these objects. Thanks having been voted
to the Chairman for his able services, the meeting n•as
adjourned till Wednesday 10th iast., at eight o'clock in
the same place.