The Sun.
London, England, 1812-07-02 00:00:00

tinctly to pledge himself-41:ot to remove this
grievance would be effectually to appease ail dis
content in Ireland. At any rate it was a main
.grievance. Ilewould-go fin tiler. It was a legi-
timate grievance. It 'was a grievance of such a
nature, that it affected all other grievances ; in-
-Ban4aig and-exasperating them. It deeply galled
the national pride of. Ireland. It was-not surpi.i.S-
ing that the Sense of degiadation,'.Which disabili-
ties that 'ought to bc,the penalties- only of I:igh
miademeanOurs, must necessarily occasion, should
taint thc whole feeling and conduct of those minds
in whirl it existed. In his view Of the subject;
to remove -this single grieVanee wo-tA be toroot
out all the others. Without removing this griev-
ance, the remota of all the others would have
little or no effect; , bat' let their Lordships deter-
mine that this avievance should be open to con,-
sideratiBn, and, eventnally to conciliatory -arrange-
menta and every other discontent in Ireland
would speedily Subside. What reason' Was there
to doubt this Nothing, he repeated, but the Opie
nions expressed by 'Certain Unfortunate persons
'concerned in the rebellion in Ireland, who were
examined before the Secret. Committees of both
Houses of:Parliament. These persons certainly
declared, una voce, that Catholic Emancipation
would have no effect in tranquiliSing Ireland. But
was it on ,such an opinion, so proceeding, that
,Parliaineut were now to rely ? Was any weight
'`to be attached' to the declaration of persons sedii-
lonsly employed in inflaming Ireland, and affixing.
dissent and disorder in her very heart, when they
maintained that a relaxation which wri,s. calculated'
lay the foundation of a conciliatory adjustment
of the Catholic-Claims, was- not calculated to sube
due the discontents, and:to tranquilize the agita-
" tioa of Ireland ? The shbrt question was—and it
was a question to-which-he wished particulaely to
direct their Lordships attention—whether the
Church Establislu would be more endangered
by the admission of the Catholics to the eligibility
to all civil and military offices, and to seas in
::Porliament, or by embodying a whole periple nn7-:
der aasysteid of exclusion/which must rendeftlipm.
adverse tb that establishment, and susceptible of" •,. •
that feeling which it was the undoubted wish and
6.(:l4ject •of the enemy to cherish?, In his sincere
conviction, it:was impossible to conceive a more
erroneous policy, than, after a cl4r manifestation
on the part.of the Catholics,, thiit their religious
tenets had no connection whnteVer with their po-
litical opinionS, that the mark which bad beenfix-
ed on them should be allowed to remain, and they
thus'inevitahly 'be rendered inimical to the exist-
ing establishments. There 'remained only to be
considered the time, the mode, and the object of
the present motion. With respect to time, their
Lordships ought to recollect that there had' been
accumulated delay.
.The 'consideration of the. Ca-
tholic Claims had been postponed' from time to
time, under circumstances by no means 'satisfac-
tory either to the Catholics or to the public.—
Against that postponement he had,. from an early
period in the Session, remonstrated. The first dis-
cussion of the subject in the present Session took
place on the 31st of January. He had objected
to the motion of that day, on the ground of the
recent alleged violation of the law in Ireland," and
for'other reasons, which it was not necessary to re-:
.peat. When the subject was subsequently agi-
tated, "he had distinctly expressed his opinion that
their Lordships ought not to allow such a great
question to lie dormant. When'it was freed from
embarrassnient, he conceived that an early consi-
deration of the question was essential to the re
'storation of the peace of Ireland. He pressed
that consideration, on the ground that the great-
est irritation in that country was otherwise to be
expected. What he had anticipated had occurred..
Considerable irritation had been excited by the de-
lay. The Catholics entertained jealousies and
suspicions wholly unwarrantable, even of those
who were their friends.' But was that a reason
for not fixing a precise tinte for entering into the
consideration of their claims ? Far from it ; with
him it was an additional motive for taking'the
question under the eye of Parliament ; for taking
it out of the hands of those who were desirous of
managing it in other places. In doing this, their
Lordships would be ably assisted by the NobleXarl
near him (we presume Lord Donoughinore), He
.(Lord Wellesley) would only presume to aid that
great cause in which the Noble Earl must lead.
lie would aid it to the extent of his humble pow-
ers : for, by the suspicion and jealousy which had
gone abroad on this subject, he had been in no
way hurt. Let the Catholics—let the country
judge of his sincerity, and that' of those Who
thought with him, by their conduct. He was sin-
cere in wishing that the Catholic Claims should be
considered, but he was also sincere in wishing
that they should be considered in Parliament, and
not left to float abroad, exposed to every peril
which could assail a great and important public
question. He wished to rescue the subject from
the enemye—not an-enemy in Ireland, but an ene-
my in France. So far washe from thinking what
'had occurred in Ireland: should induce delay, he•
thought it tailed' on their Lordships to accelerate
their proceedings. If it were practicable., he
'thought it called on their Lordahipsto go into the
immediate consideration of the subject.' .But Par-
liament could. do only that which was practicable.
To so much delay therefore he must submit. but
if the advanced stage of the Session-forbade any
hope that a progress in the consideratiOn "of the
Catholic Claims might be made inthe present Ses-
sion, the next proposition would be, that the
House would take up that consideration • early iu
the next Session. Then came the consideration
of the mode. He would ask their Lordships whe-
ther, after all that he had been deseribing—after all
their knowledge on the subject—they thought it
possible, consistent with the tranquility of Ire-
land, and with the safety of the Empire, to al-
low this question to remain as it was, during the
season that must elapse after the prorogation,
and before the next meeting of Parliament, with-
out any pledge or assurance on their part—sub-
mitting it to be looked at capriciously or ill-hu-
mouredly by the Catholics, and with an evil design
by the great enemy? The question was, whe-,.
ther the object of the proposed resolution was
one which objections couhtbe made ?No one,
he was persuaded, but must be anxious, if it were
possible, to obtain it for " such a final and con-
eiliatdry adjustment as might be conducive to. the
pel,lce and strength of . the Umited Kingdom, to

the stability of the Protestant establishment, and
to the general satisfaCtion and concord off-all
classes of his Majesty'subjects:' • The only Air.,
ference of opiAion was on the probability of the
attainment of these de.sirable objects: Upon this
.probability Parliament could decide only after a
full and deliberate Consideration of the stikject.--
It was probable that there .were other eirctim-
stances in the situation of Ireland, which, though
not principal, Were accessaries in occasioning the
.present state of things in that country. To enter
into any examination of these circumstances at the
present moment would be premature. The only
question was, whether all the circumstances were
not such as to induce their Lordships to take them
into serious consideration ? If so, what impropriety
would there be in, their giving the Public a pledge
that they would enter upon that consideration ear-
ly in ,the next Session of Parliament ? When that
period should. arrive; he Would must ccrdiallir as-
sist those who were entitled to take the lead. in the,
business, ft-. completely revising the whole sys-
tem ; and he trusted in God that -the event would
be.productive of tranquility and union. If, how-
ever the House should reject his motion, what
conclusion could. the Catholics or the Public draw ?
They Must draw the, conclusion that their Lord-
ships meant :to .establish the existing system in
Ireland-=-4o give to it the. sanction of thetonsti-
tution, and to uphold it
,as,the 4uitvth.k of our li-
.berties. `‘ I. trust (concluded the MPe Mar-
quis) that, this will not- be the case. I trust that
your Lordships will adopt the proposition which
Aln about, humbly to submit to you, in the hope,
and with the , opinion, that it may lead to peace
and tranquility in Ireland's; and to the generalhar-
mony and strength of the whole United King
and I trust, therefore, that-your Lordships
will resolve---

'l,7ltat this House will early in the next SeSsicin Parlia-
mennake into its most serious, consideration the state of the
laws alrectitig his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects.in Great
Britain and Ireland, with a view to such a final and concilia-
tory adjustment as may he condueh-eto the peace and Strength.
of the United Kingdom, to the sta!;ility, of the Protestant
Establishment, and to the general satisfaction and concord of
all.elasses of his Majesty's subjects."•

Lord LONGFORD observed, that this was.a sub-
ject on which there existed considerable difference
of opinion. Even the best friends of the' Catho-
licS,thought they had lately gone to most unwar-
rantable lengths ; and the objections of those
who were adVerse to concession, were very much
strengthened by, the recent occurrences. He ob-
' jetted entirely to a- pledge on this subject.. The
Catholic would derive, no advantage from it, for
he nnist know that it was a subject winch !would.
be entertained by Parliament whenever they might
consider it prudent to entertain it.- If, however,.
circumstances should render it expedient for enter
into the' coaSithratiOn of the Catholic claims
early in the next Session, what would be the effect
of adopting the Noble Marquis's resolution; but
to :pledge their Lord Ships to consider that Which
it would be expedient to,
.consider him-
self, he could not agree that the objections to
concession were of a spiritual nature ; they were
political. He., lbr one, Would riot chuse to admit
those into political power who in any shape acr
knowledged a foreign authority. He wished to
afeertain some positive security, before.he could
consent to such
.a surrender. The present sub-
mission of the CathOlics to the Papal power was,
in his opinion, ,of too organized a nature, not to
'be susceptible of a political character. hen the
question was brought forward, whenever it might
be brought forward, he, trusted that it would be
considered not partially with a view to the inte-
rests of the Catholics' alone, but as b. great 'na-
tional cause.` In refusink to agree to the present
motion, he guarded himself from being supposed
to intimate, that if it should be proposed next
SesOon: to discuss the subject he shotild Object to
that, proposition.

The-LORD CHANCELLOR thought it . his duty,
thus early-in the debate, to offer to the.irLord-
ships his sentiments on a subject of such vital,
portance to the civil and religious liberties of the
Empire. Because he stated his opinion on this
subject? • even were he to stand alone 'in that
.opinion—he denied the right of any man to ques-
tion his sincerity. There was no wish nearer his
heart than to 'be convinced that he was wrong.
If he could be convinced of that, he would,, with-
out hesitation, vote for the resolut?on proposed
by the Noble Marquis ;but conceiving as, lie did,
that he • was right; and that those who were of
a different opinion were wrong, the.NobleMar.-.
quis. must excuse him, and indeed ,he wonld,,
no doiibt, applaud him for going to the utmost
length in opposition to that motion. The Noble
Marquifijustly expressed his persuasion that there
could be no difference of opinion as to the desirable
nature of the objects which the resolution,profess-
.ed- itself calculated to attain. Oh, that they
could be accomplished ! Oh, that their Lordships
Could came to some determination on this. subject,
" satisfactory to all elasSes of his Majesty's sub--
jects He believed from his soul, that the
Noble Marquis entertained the best intentions 3
but it was for their Lordships that night closely
to examine, and conscientiously to decide upon
the probability, or rather the possibility, that the
adoption of the Noble Marquis's resolution would
be " satisEctory to all classes of his Majesty's
subjects." He trusted thp.t he slkould riot be charg-
ed with intolerance and bigotry, if he expressed)
Lin self in the language. of all the Statutes on the
Subject, or if he maintained that to agree to the
question VI dispute, would be to alter the wit ole s ys -
tein of law which since the revolution had been es-
tablished in this Protestant, and he trusted not the'
less Protestant, for being the United Kingdom.,
There had been great men, certainly not chargeable
with bigotry and intolerance, who had thought it
of some importance that the religion in which they
had been educated, and which he, it might be er,
roneously, could not help
,considering the purest
in the world, ought to be favoured by tire State
in a higher degree than any other, religion. It
certainly shocked him to see the descendants of
those great men act so 'oppositely to 'the prin-
ciples of their ancestors. They must pardon him,
but he could mot refrain from expressing his re-
gret at this circumstance. 'From the year 1800 to
the present period, he and those who thought
with him on the present subject—the humble ad-
vocates of the civil and religious liberties of their
country (liberties fostered by the Church Estab-
liihment, so closely connected with that of the 1

State)----had never reased- td request those,
. proposed an alteration in the existing state 01
things; what it was they 'meant to do He now
aSked the• Noble Marquis, in that language of re-
spect whia it was as becoming him to use as the
Noble Marquis to hear, what it was that-he meant
to do 1 What did the Noble Marquis propose
Cons;,deration i• Did not all the Noble Marquis's
arguin ents go to establish the necessity, not of coo'
sideratipa only, but of absolute concession ? pur-
ing the last debate on this subject, he (the LOrd
Chancellor) had got op. to, protest against the
iMputations which had beet thrown out aguiaSt
him in that -Honse and in other places, that he
was an enemy to .the Catholic claiMs. He wag
no enemy to the jut claims, if they could been;
tertained consistently with the public welttre uc
any class of ,his Majesty's subjects. But holding
the high situation which he had the honour to
bold, he should think him Self the most. culpable
and criMinal of beings if he consented to the sa-
crifice -of -any guard
.which, in his opinion, Av. 4
indispensable to the security ;of the.. Church and
State: He repeated what he had said in his last
speech, that nothing on earth should induce bias;
contrary to his sound discretionas. a. legislator, to
pledge hiniself, to the copsideration of a subject,
which, even if it appeared fit to be discussed 1;4'0
the proposition was, originally made, might,
by the intervention of various, circuurstancv4i
become not fit to be discussed at the period to-
which(' the proposition referred. . According
to the avowal of the Noble Marquis himself, the
events of five or six months . might produce a
very great change' in_ the_ propriety or ,iippre
priety of any disenssion. For instaw:e, at the cot}
of the session of 1811, Parliament bad beard no"'
thing
,of the Convention in :Ireland; they 1104
heard nothing of the measures adopted in, conse-P
quence; on the legality.or illegality of which be
would now say nothing, except that _ the l'ir01"
lawyers and the Irish debatus elsewhere, had
right to inform .the public that he allowed those"
measureS to be illegal, becaus.e he had ilot con-
tradicted Lord Erskine on "the subject.
fact was, that he thought it .became neither' bis
Noble- or Learned Friend, nor himself, to say one
word on, that subject, -pending a legal consi"
deration, and when it might be ultimately sub-
mitted to tbe decision Of their Lordships. But be
remonstrated against having eenelnded unfavour-
able to the legality of those- measures, because
he bad conscientiously abstained froin, express-
ing his sentiments on them.' He confessed kis -
surpriSe at the .opinions_ delivered by. the Noble
Marquis, fighting side, by side with hint, as that
Noble Marquis,had done at the commencement of,.
the present Session. 'He bad not heard much or
the Noble Marquis's ,opinioris on this smd Le"
fore. If he were pushed, lie would say, that .11e.
had entertained little suspicion that such opinions
eNisted the Noble Marquis's 'mind. At the
time when the NoLlek *Marqpis stated in That'
House, that if the Legislature ever gave way W
menace, there was an end to free and uncoil"

trolled discussion, the Noble Marquis and he
voted together.. The Noble Marquis was now,
would appears of a different opinion ; Yct"
the circumstances were the tame, .or ratb.e,r they •
were much stronger. One would have thou
that similar eircuinstan,.Ts would have le to 3
similar conclusion. tie knew that the Resoiiitioo-
of the.late Aggregate Meeting of Catholic:3 were
not a Parliamentary document, to which are`"
guiar reference could be made ;. but it ws.,;.nevei"';
theless impossible that the Legislature cook'
blind themselves to what had occurred. At the
same time he begged that his vote of that night
.might not conclude him on the subject in the
next Session of Parliament. Wbatle contended
for was„ that no man ought to pledge himself, t°
some future course of proceeding ; that when tho
season of action' arrived, he should do that,'
which, ,under
.ail • the'circumstances of the, cage,
it appeared to him was right •to do. Revertiog.
to the Resolutions of the Aggregate Meeting c't
the Catholics of 'lreland, he asked those wh°„.
had react the papers in Which they were CO
tamed, if they eve! met. with a more sewl--
dalous or a more infamous publicati9n,
ing as it did,, the most unwarranted.. censure 03.

•1,---•
liiustrious persons holding,,in: the place of '0
King, offices of Sovereignty in this country-
more criminal production had never appeared .'
When ,he saw such characters so observed
he must maintain the impropriety of it even i 0
had voted with his_ Noble Friend. • He ONied, it in

justice to those who voted the resolutions, to-sl,
that he believed they were surpriSed into thell
With respect to the measure itself, he had iistene;
with the greatest attention -to what the Nolne
Mai quis proposed, and he was to the bonajide con-
sideration, with reference to bona fide concessi°""
not only a friend, but se far a friend, as to belietv,
that no, man, cons4tently.with his, public duty'
would be an enemy to it. The Nsoble Lord hal
asked them to-sheW.,him the danger • but was he
in this Protestant Conntry to shew the danger Qt
subverting' the Proteitant Establishment
he meant to say was, that :every where in -o‘l'
Statute books ~,the-y Would find the security of, tht7.
Protestant religion *Vicki] for, not merely vci_T
reference to religion, notbe,cause We quarrelle
the religion of the Catholics, but becanse the';
religious opinions operated on their political
ciples in such a way as to render it necessary to adt:';',,
same defence against them. it bad been
that the-regulations of-.which the Catholics _01)1"
plained were, called for by the particular occi.i.si"
but the ancestor of ,a ICoble Lord (Hardwicke).
had cautioned them,. that if they permitted their
religious establishment to be broken in -upon, the
effect would be injurious to their civil, rights;',
This, was the general principle . upon wbich t.a?'r
ancestors proceeded. It had been 'said. that f--"
Catholics regarded their .oaths. He did not
that they did so ; but'' there was no oath whit'
met the case, or afforded an adequate security.--7"
As to the distinction drawn in their favour be:
tween-spiritual and temporal jurisdiction, it
a distinction "in itself -obscure, and !liabl.P. to great
confusiOn and one thing we might depend upu"f
in looking at this subject, that a great deal
that we would call. temporal, they would "ll
:„
spiritualpower: The anthority of Black stone„wbia
was quoted so frequently on this subject, if quote
impartially, would. go to a modificaticn of the
visions against the Roman Catholics; but no fur-
ther' than a modification, so long
.as they ac/.0(1-w-