The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-31 00:00:00

TIE SUN, LONDI

two years ago. He was of opioion that it interfered too
minutely with local affairs, and carried out the principle
of centralisation too far. The Noble Lord proposed to
constitute a new t_ic,lrd of pa c -rnmissioth-1-3 to carry
013 the arrangt-menis, the otg an of which in the House
was to be the Chief Commissioner o' Woods and Forests.
He believed the result of this arrangement would be, that
the Chief Commissioner would be involved in a multiplicity
of occupations to which he could not efficiently attend. Ile
had a very great objection o❑ principle to the construc-
tion of new boards. He thought, moreover, when it was
proposed to devise a great scheme for the good of the
country, and to cm,struct a large machinery, they had
a right to know what were the peculiar functions to be
discharged by that hoard. Before the second reading of
the Bill he would call-upon the Noble Lord for an ex-
p!anation on this point.
Mr. AGLIONBY spoke in favour of the general pro-
visions of the Bill. He, however, considered that a
Committee, of the House of Commons was the very
worst tribunal that such subjects could be referred to,
by reason of the expense which they created. The rate-
payers themselves ought to manage their own business.
Mr. GREENE said that the private Bills on the
table of the House should be suspended until the pro-
visions of the Bill were carried out.

Sir WM. CLAY desired to add his approbation to
,hat of the Noble Lord opposite in favour of this Bill ;
ie, however, considered that it was inexpedient to

include the metropolis. The Noble Lord would
have to dissolve some hundred local boards,
many of them possessing the confidence of their con-
stituencies and popular, he was of opinion, therefore,
that the Noble Lord had not calculated the difficulty of
the task which he had undertaken to perform. He
would support the Bill, but he would entreat that ample
time would be given to the great interests involved.
Mr. HUME hoped that, as soon as the House met,
the Noble Lord would forthwith proceed with the Bill,
fifteen days would be enough to give to the interests
affected. The object of the Bill was to afford accommo-
dation to those who had been neglected heretofore. He
considered it, therefore, the duty of the House to support
the Noble Lord, in opposition to those selfish interests
hich always interposed between great and permanent
improvements.
Mr. BROTHERTON could not refrain from offering
his tribute of thanks to the Noble Lord for having
brought the measure forward. He had no doubt diffi-
culties would be met with, but as the Noble Lord must
have the co-operation of the whole country, he was sure
they would be overcome.
Mr. P. HOWARD thought that all private measures
upon this subject ought to be withdrawn until this
general Bill was passed. He approved of the measure
as a whole, but he hoped the suggestion of his Hon.
Friend the Member for Lancashire would be adopted,
and that Government would announce before the recess
their intention with respect to the private measures
upon this subject.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
Mr. C. O'BRIEN asked the Secretary for Ireland why
the return of the number of extraordinary sessions held
in each barony in the county of Clare, under the Act 9
and 10 Vic. c. 107, with the schedules and other infor-
mation in die order of the 9th day of March particularly
mentioned, has not been laid on the table of this House,
in obedience to said order.

Mr. LABOUCHERE said, the officers of the Board
of Works were most anxious to give the House every
information upon subjects connected with their opera-
tions, and no time would be lost in supplying the return
quired. As yet, however, sufficient time had not
elapsed to admit of the return being got ready.
Mr. C. O'BRIEN moved that the several petitions
from the relief committees of Liscannor, Killilagh and
Kishanny, Ennistymon and Clooney, and Kilfenora and
Kiltonarta, in the county of Clare (presented 23d Feb-
ruary and Ist and 9th March), be referred to the Select
Committee on Captain Wynne's case.—Agreed to.
Mr. HUME moved for returns from the Parlia-
mentary Trustees of the River Clyde and Harbour of
Glasgow, of the amount paid or agreed to be paid by
the trustees, on or before the Ist day of April, 1847, for
land and compensation, under the powers of the Act
3 and 4 Victoria, c. 118, pissed the 4th day of August,
1840, and the amount paid for the construction of works
authorised by the said Act ; also, the number of square
yards of ground so paid for, or agreed to be paid. Of
ttn, amount of tonnage or other dues, levied by the
trustees on steam vessels plying between the harbour of
Glasgow, and ports or places on the River or Forth of
Clyde, during the year ending the Bth day of July,
1846. Of the names of all ports and places from which
sailing vessels have arrived during the year ending the Bth
day of July, 1846 ; also the number of vessels, and
total tonnage, arriving from each port and place. Similar
return of departures. Of the name of each ♦essel arriv-
ing at or departingjrom the harbour of Glasgow during
the year ending the Bth de) of July, 1846; also the ton-
nage and draught of water cf each vessel, with the num-
ber of times that each vessel has arrived during that
period, and the average time she remained in harbour
be:ween arrival and departure. Abstract account of the
revenue, expenditure, surplus, or deficiency, stating the
amount of the debt of the Trust, for each of the years
ending the Bth day of July, 1840, 1841, 1842, 1843,
1844, 1845, 1846. List of the number of vessels (both
sailing and steam), lying in the harbour of Glasgow for
each day of any seven consecutive days after this date
and previous to the 21st day of April, 1847.
Agreed to.
Mr. CORNELIUS O'BRIEN moved for copies of
the presentments made or passed by the magistrates
and rate payers of the Extraordinary Sessions held at
Corofin, for the barony of Inchiquin, in the county of
Clare, on the 30th day of November, 1846, and at
Ennistymon for the barony of Corcomroe in the same
county, on the 4th day of December in the same year,
both being for reproductive works, under Mr. Labou-
chere's Letter of the sth day of October, 1846, and
which were sent to the Under Secretary for Ireland, or
to the Board of Works ; and though included in the
Order of the 11th day of February last, are not amongst
the papers laid on the table, pursuant to the said Order,
whether sanctioned or not.

Mr. LABOUCHERE said the return required had
already been moved for, and laid upon the table of the
House, but there might be some confusion of dates, and
he would make inquiry as to whether that were the
case or not.

Mr. C. O'BRIEN, under these circumstances, con-
sented to withdraw his motion for the present.
Mr. CHRISTIE, at the request of Sir G. Grey,
postponed his motion for returns connected with the ad-
ministration of the prmr-laws.
ARMY SERVICE BILL.

On the question being put for going into Committee
on the Bill,
Sir H. DOUGLAS rose, pursuant to notice, to move
that the Bill be committed that day six months. The
Bill was disapproved of by the highest authority upon
subjects connected with the army. The Commander-in-
chief, it was admitted, altogether disapproved of it. gad
that distinguished personage not done so, perhaps he
should not have felt himself called Upon to support it.
But it was disapproved of not only by the Com-
mander-in-Chief, but also by almost every eminent
officer in the army, and before he sat down he would
endeavour to show that they had good grounds for
doing so. In the first place he would consider what
effect this Bill would have upon the army generally.
Now in 1842 a Bill was passed for partially limiting the
time of enlistment, and then it was contended that the
measure would tend to add to the comfort of the soldier,
and increase the efficiency of the army, but experience and
subs( quent results had proved such views to-be erroneous.
Let them inquire into the new arrangements proposed.
What were the inducements to be held out to the re-
cruits? They were to be first enlisted for ten years, and
then if a soldier thought fit he might again enlist till he
had been in service twenty-one years, when he could
retire with a pension. If he retired at the end of ten
years he was subject to be called out for twelve days
every year to be drilled along with those who were re-
ceiving pensions from the country. This drilling he
was called on to perform for the purpose of filling the
glorious post, it would seem, of standing behind stone-
walls to defend the country in the case of an
invasion. He considered it a perfect mockery
to suppose that such tin arrangement would
secure a better class of soldiers, and he was sure it
would be far from proving so efficacions as the present.
At the end of the ten years there was to be no pension
given, a proceeding to which he could not give his
assent, for he considered whatever the time of enlist-
ment might be, that at the end of it there ought to be a
pension. He thought that, if a soldier had served
twenty one year*, he should.-at least have a shilling a
day, and if for fourteen or-fifteen years, fourpence
or sixpence at least; but in no case should there
be any discharge without a pension. Let them
do this, and, in. his opinion, they would do
more to elevate _the army than by any other
course they could adopt. Such was the plan he would
recommend, and if he failed in arresting the progress of
the Bill in its present stage, then he should move amend-
ments to this effect in the Committee. While speaking
on this question, he might remark, that since he last ad-
dressed the House on the subject, he had received corn
munications from a great number of persons in the army
who all sought to have pensions allowed for a regular
period of service, but none of them seemed to be in
favour of the short period of service without a pension.
Now while they talked of getting a superior class of sol-
diers by this Bill, he would remark that it would not be
possible for them to get better ones than now. At
present the army was recruited from the very best
sources. He found that out of every 1,000 recruits,
623 were agriculturists, who made the very best soldiers.
About 300 out of every 1,000 were from the artizan and
mechanic class, who made good soldiers, but tot so good
as the former. 43 out of every 1,000 were shopmen and
clerks, and these made very bad soldiers.—(Hear, hear.)
Gentlemen's sons, professional gentlemen, licentiates of
law, &c., made the very worst soldiers of all. In fact,
the higher they went in the scale of society, the
worse soldiers they made, as it was found that
those from out of the better classes were those
in the decadence of life, who enlisted on ac-
count of the difficulties they were placed in.
Lie Hon.'and Gallant Member then proceeded to read
extracts from certain letters, to show the bad effects
which had resulted from the passing of Mr. Wyndhiien, s
limited enlistment Act. The reason why the British
soldier was so superior, in physical energy, to the sol-
dier of the Continental nations, was, that the conscrip-
tien of these latter countries gave no liberty of selection
while the voluntary enlistment of the agricultural la-
bearer of this country afforded every oppo, tueity for
the, enlistment of the best men. lie need only, in sup-
pert of this assertion, instance the many cases in which
they had driven thrice there own number before them.
He believed that the number of men who velenteered
le- t year to remain in India was upwards of 2.000. The
soldier desired to retruiy in India because he was a sol-
di.-r, but he thought that they ought not to permit him
to do so if they were to adopt the limited term of enlist-
meet. Supposing, for instance, a rigieuent in an on
healthy climate—the West Indies, for exam;.le—they
would actually be incapacitating the man for his future

duty. lie regrctted that the Chancellor of the Exchet7
quer was not in the House, as he had some remarks to
wake which would have been of importance ; but he
might say that it was well worth the attention of the
Government that the expense of removals under the
new system would not be less than half a million a year.
Then there was the revenue derived from the
purchase of discharges, as much, he believed as that
required for the whole expense of the recruiting service,
He would also particularly call the attention of his Hon.
Friends, that under a system of ten years' service, they
would also lose all the advantage of stoppages for provi-
sions, from which a great benefit was derived, especially
on the Canada, the Nova Scotia, and the Cape of Good
Hope stations. Nor must it be believed that this was no
small advantage, for an the Canada station the saving
was at least 13,0001. a year. At the Cape of Good Hope
he believed it was quite as much, and he could say, from
his own knowledge, that the six regiments under his
command there had been a contribution of no less than
6.0001. a year to the general fund ; and if this
new system were to be adopted, the whole
of the benefit derived from this source would bo
lost, for they could never impose those stoppages again.
He had shown them that this change was not called for
by any political, social, or peculiar evils that now existed
in the British army. That army was, at the present
moment, in the highest state of discipline, and fit for
employment upon any service in any part of the world.
—(Hear, hear.) Thanks to the liberality of that House
the condition of the soldier had been in every way
improved. His quarters were more comfortable, his
appointments better, and the means of advancing in life
were more fully opened to him. He was happy also to
say that his intellectual condition was also decidedly
improved, and that the opportunity of securing what he
had earned was also provided. Twenty years ago be
Lad assiduously laboured to introduce savings-banks
into the army, and he was glad to find that the establish-
ment of them constituted a part of the Government plan.
It was said that the British army afforded no career of
advancement to persons in an humble sphere of life; but
so far from that being the case, the military page of
history of this country was adorned with instances of
noble heroism and admirable discretion in trying and
dangerous moments on the part of private soldiers ; and
yet it was said that this Bill was necessary to open a
career to the private of the British army. There was
no denying that the present system had worked well, and
as he was particularly desirous that it should not be
changed, he felt it to be his duty to move that the Bill
be recommitted that day six months,
Major LAYARD had been most anxious that
this Bill should be fully brought before the
public, and he was glad that the Honourable and
Gallant Officer opposite had an opportunity of stating
his views upon the subject. Still he regretted that the
Hon. and Gallant Officer, after his lengthened experi-
ence, should feel himself called upon to oppose the Bill,
while he thought the reasons the Hon. and Gallant
Officer had adduced in favour of his amendments were
most extraordinary. In his opinion the Hon. and Gal-
lant Officer's reasons, instead of supporting his amend-
ment, were directly in favour of the Bill itself. It,
however, was really most unjust to argue that a man
ought to enlist for life, and yet not be allowed to make a
will, or to marry, or to leave the army without leave,
while Government could dismiss him at any moment.
Indeed, the system was so bad, that dissertions without
end were every day taking place. And it was to be
expected that it should be so, for was it fair
that after serving far a length of time abroad, a private
soldier could not return to his wife, his friends, or his
family. A greater argument could not be adduced in
favour of this Bill, than the one he advanbed in that
House some short time ago, namely, that one out of
every twenty deaths in cavalry regiments was from
suicide. He freely admitted that the present system of
pensioning was by no means liberal, but he could not see
why that reason could be advanced against the passing
of this Bill ; on the contrary, it was a strong argument
in its favour. He supported the Bill, because he
sincerely believed it would tend to induce a better
class of individuals to enlist in the army. It was really
paltry to tell him that because the removal of re-
giments from the colonies was expensive this Bill ought
not to be carried, but like every other argument the
Hon. and Gallant Officer had advanced against this
measure, it tended rather to support it. He was rejoiced
that Government had brought it forward—it was in
accordance with the advanced spirit of the age, and
in spite of all the opposition it might meet with from a
certain class of political economists, lie was confident
the Hove would pass it.
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT felt called upon, at
this stage of the Bill, to state his views
upon the measure. As a principle, he thought
unlimited enlistments were highly objectionable.
Out of 110,000 men who were serving in the army in
1840, there were not more than 2,500 who had served
21 years. About 12,000 men left the army every year,
3,000 left with pensions, 3,000 deserted, and 6,000 left
by discharge. The great number of the latter generally
left to obtain seme other employment. He was, there-
fore, of opinion that if the natural time had been taken
by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. F. Maule) the ex-
periment would be much less hazardous. He thought
that a system should be adopted by which
the whole population would be induced to enter
the ranks and acquire a knowledge of military discipline.
His own opinion was, that fourteen years instead of ten,
should have been the period for enlistment; and by this
means a soldier would have an opportunity of taking his
full term of home and foreign service. The Hon. Gen-
tleman considered that the measure would introduce a
diffl.rcnt class of men into the army. Now, he was
of opinion, that that was not so very desirable.
He threw out these suggestions for the Right
Honourable Gentleman's consideration ; be had no
intention to vote for the proposition of the Gallant
Gentleman, he did not at all agree with him, but he did
considerethat if the Right Hon. Gentleman would take
a few suggestions from the Gallant Officer (Major
Layard), who had paid so much attention to this sub-
ject, he would render the Bill a much better one
than it now was. It would be a hardship for such
men as would enlist the day before the Bill received the
royal sanction. When they compared their lot to
those who enlisted the day after—unless there was some
provision of this kind there would be a great deal of
dissatisfaction in the army—if the Right Hon. Gentle.
man gave the Bill some further consideration, he was of
opinion that he would make it more acceptable to the
army.
Mr. FOX MAULE said that notwithstanding the
ateness of the hour, he would detain the House for a few
moments while he would reply to the observations of the
lion. Gentleman, who had acknowledged the principle
of the Bill, while ho objected first to the period to which
it was proposed to limit the enlistment of soldiers; se-
condly, to the system which offered to those who left the
army after ten years' service a pension; and, thirdly, to
the expense which the whole system would throw upon
the public expenditure. The Right Hon. Gentleman
suggested a revision of the pension warrant of 1833, and
staind that there were other modes by which the service
might he rendered more acceptable to the
army. With reference to the first of these
objections, namely, that a period of fourteen years be
substituted for ten, he would say that the latter was not
chosen by him on mere vague surmise or uncertai❑
chance, but because he thought it a much better period;
fur supposing a man had enlisted at 18 years of age,
after 14 years service he would be 32 years of age, and
he believed no Commander would be willing tore-enlist a
man at that age. He would object also to giving him a pen-
sion, which would be a very heavy burden upon the public.
On this account he had preferred the period of ten years.
He would go to Canada. In the time cf the Canadian
rebellion, when every attempt was made to seduce the
men from their allegiance, to a man they remained loyal.
He had not the smallest fear of the men, after

their discharge, leading the people into mis•
chief, or exciting riots in the country. lie
thought the contrary effect would follow in consequence
of the habits of obedience and discipline he had acuired.
The principle carried out with respect to sailors who
were engaged for three and five years, and sometimes
to the termination of the war, was what was proposed
with regard to the soldier. Their could be no
more unwarrantable assumption than that of the
Duke of Wellington being opposed to the measure
He thought the Hon. and Gallant Member had endea-
voured, in a most unjustifiable manner, to fix upon the
Duke of Wellington all the unpopularity with the coun-
try which an opposition to the Bill would be sure to
create. There was no ground, however, for that deci-
sion, as nothing whatever had transpired to warrant the
conclusion. The Hon, and Gallant Officer had also, in a
most unwarrantable manner, assumed that the officers of
the army were against the limited enlistment. No suf-
ficient reasons whatever had been given for this opinion.
And to his objections to a limited enlistment, be
(Mr. F. Maule) would answer that nearly the
whole Peninsula army was composed of persons
who had been but eight or ten years in the ser-
vice. During the height of the Peninsula war, the
British army was 200,000 strong, the greater part being
in Spain ; and of those 200,000, at least 106,000 were
young men who had been from three to four years in the
service. These were the very men who had gained all
those important victories to which the Hon. and Gallant
Officer had referred. Even the great victory at Water-
loo was mainly secured by recruits, as well as had been
several important ones on the other side of the Atlantic.
In looping again at the colonies, he found the advantage
of-limited enlistment, for the returns showed that the
least number of deaths took
place among those
who had been in the service from one to ten years.
The great proportion of deaths took place among those
beyond that length of time. These were strong reasons
why a period of limited enlistment should take place ;
and with regard to the Bill, he must say that he could
not promise any material modification Of its details, as
it had not been agreed to without the greatest delibera-
tions.—(Cheers.)
Colonel WOOD said the tendency of the course pro-
posed must lead them to the system recommended by
the late Mr. Wyndham, which was periods of seven
years, fourteen years, and twenty-one years. This
would be a better arrangement than the one
proposed by the present measure. The soldier
who had served for twenty-five years obtained
a higher rate of pension, whereas the soldier who
had been disabled would on;y get eightpence a day.
He was quite satisfied that the limited time could not be
re-introduced, and he thought it better, therefore, that this
warrant should be cancelled, and that a new one should
he formed. It would be better to give a shilling a day
after twenty. five years service, and eightpence after
twenty-one years service, and that good conduct should
be calculated in their term.
Sir 1)E LACY EVANS, after great cries of
" Divide, divide," expre,ised his desire that the Bill
should go into Committee, and then such alterations
might then be introduced as would be neces.ary.
• Atter a few w.,rds from C lope' REID,
Sir HOWARD DOUGLAS withdrew his motion,
stet trig his intention that he sneuld endeavour to get the
;Aeration of the fourteen years, and the twenty one
, years service, in Committee.