The Sun.
London, England, 1847-05-18 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY '*E,V,ENING, MAY 18, 1847.

Lord REVERSHAM said that in seconding the
motion 3 Noble Friend who had just sat down.
wished to make a few obseri talons upon till.; meeee re
generally, A eoesiderahle body of the ind istrious and
well-disposed operatives, men in favour of this measure,
from a desire not only to avoid the present severe labour
and its sudden alterations, but from a conviction that it
was a measure which must eventually result in the ad-
vancement of their interest—by their eqalising the
amount of labour to be distributed amongst them, and
rendering their employment more constant. The ques-
tion of wages was one which had induced many to
stand forward in opposition to this measure, who ap-
proved of iqt regulations as being likely to benefit the
working classes. It was possible that the rate of
wages might be reduced, but that would be coun-
teracted by the greater certainty of employment.
This Bill had been brought into the other House by a
gentleman who was himself deeply interes ed in the
manufactures of the country. Mr. Fielding had spent a
long life in the cotton manufacture, and during the
course of that life he had most materially benefited the
working classes, and he had brought forward this glee
sure with a view of adding one more benefit to the many
he had conferred upon the working classes. The
opinions of this gentleman were supported by a very
large number of those who were also engaged in the
various manufactures of the country, and who had
equally the welfare of the operatives in view. The
Noble acrd then proceeded to refer at a considerable
length to documents which showed that from the year 1819
to the present time the provisions of this Bill had been mat-
ter of agitation, not only amongst the class whom it more
immediately affected, bat in the Houses of Parliament.
and since that time, up to the year 1847, the consumption
of cotton had increased nearly at the rate of 400 per
cent. In seconding the motion for the second reading
of this Bill, he was not aware of what reception he would
meet with from the House and from her Majesty's Go-
vernment, but he hoped that a measure, which was so
perfectly consonant with all recognised principles of po-
litical economy, and so well calculated to benefit the
working classes, would not be otherwise than favourably
received.
Lord BROUGHAM said that he was very sorry to
di:eurb the unanimity of feeling which had appeared
upon this question during the evening, by an expression
of dissent from the measure before them. He was glad
to see so large an attendance of the Right Reverend Pre-
lates, as this matter was one, in the discussion of which
they ought to be more than usually interested ; and
he trusted that he should be enabled to lay before
them such views of this question as would perhaps
induce them to consider it maturely before giving an
assent to it. The question was not one which was
merely affecting the interests of the manufacturer—it
affected the condition of that great body of men who
laboured for the support of these manufactures, and with
whose condition and labour he had, ever since he had
had the power of reasoning, maintained that they had
no right of interference. There were no mysteries of
political economy in science connected with this ques-
tion, for if any man who had formerly worked twelve
hours a day were restricted to ten, it was nothing but
common sense to believe that such a step would have
the effect of increasing the price of manufactured com-
modities. He could not too highly deprecate the
conduct of any man who volunteered to meddle with
this vast subject, which effected thirty-seven millions
of the trade of this country, and assure the world
that he was so confident of kis theory that he had
no doubts of its future success. There was no question
which required more caution and slowness of action than
this. It required the deepest and acutest circumspec-
tion to deal with it ; and for any man to dare to assert
that there could be no soundness of the principles of the
measure was really surprising. At the present moment,
the manufacturing districts were overstocked with
labour—they were overwhelmed with an immense body
of destitute children—and their Lordships ought, there-
fore, to be the more cautious in the steps they took
with regard to the intermeddling policy. It must not
be supposed that he was the advocate of the mill -
owner. On the contrary, he was speaking for
those whom the millowner employed—namely, the
labourers ; and on their behalf, and their behalf
alone, he warned their Lordships of the direful
consequences that must inevitably follow the adoption
of this measure. There was, however, no ground to
justify their Lordships adopting it. True, they had in-
terfered to a moderate extent already, but then that in-
terference was to get rid of a crying evil. Here, how-
ever, there was no such cause to justify the interference.
There were no charges of cruelty brought against the
millowner—there was no overworking of the labourer.
He was satisfied with his present situation, but the pro-
moters of this Bill knew better than he did himself, and
told their Lordships that he was not only overworked
but excessively and cruelly overworked. Their former
interference was in defence of children to prevent their
being unduly employed at night, but the present Bill
was not to protect the labourer but to destroy one-sixth
part of the total manufactures of the country. That
was the real object of the Bill, or at all
events it was the direct tendency of the measure, and
he put it to their Lordships whether they were prepared
to strike such a blow at a branch of the trade of the
country, which exported upwards of 70,000,0001. per
annum, and employed upwards of a million of people.
Surely such a step must considerably reduce the wages
of the labourer, and yet it was said that the Bill was
for his protection. For his protection, indeed I Why,
he had been told upon the best authority, that if the
steam-engine of a mill were stopped for repairs, but for
a few hours, it had a considerable effect upon the wages
of
efe
feel
the
everylabourer.
reduction The
that labourersmight
hien manufactoriesmade iu thehours
w ou
of
labour,was taken
aenndfrboem- the
hprmesaesntetr,s Bill the waangeds
ifw otuh-lesxdipurt alsotoidergo
profits
sof
a very material diminution. More than one -sixth
the masters went away, thepwag 8,7 of the man must
follow. He had no doubt but if this Bill were persisted
isnrgtuhmeyensthooufldhihsaNveohelreerrloinegudtowrheotrand just sat
steps. The
sat down—
that manufacturers msiax, n usfeavcetnu,rearnsdwteerne
haotursper day—was present compelled to work
no argu-
ment at all in favour of the Bill. The present distress
in the manufacturing districts was very great, but that
surely was no reason why they should
per-
petuate it, which would be the effect if theur to
measure became law. "To belay" things, as the sailor
termed it, and make no effort to change them for the
better, was not the way to secure the prosperity of the
manufacturing interest ; and he apprehended if
they placed restriction on the hours of labour
they would be only confirming the existence of the
present state of things. He would ask their Lordships
would the Americans, the Dutch, or the Swedes, follow

. . ...
their example? No, they would not; but the conse-
quence would be that not only those nations but the
French and other continental nations would be stimu-

lated to increased exertion, and would eventually suc-
ceed in driving them from their own markets, and anni-
hilate the manufacturing and commercial superiority of
this country.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the moral
effect of this measure he would observe that poverty and
distress was as fatal to the mental and moral as it was
to the physical condition of the people. Now, by taking
off one-sixth part of the profits of the manufacturers,
there could be no other result than a dimi-
nution of the bodily comforts and circumstances
of the working classes. (Hear, hear.) The
consequence of this would be poverty. And no more
effectual means could be desired to secure the moral
I degradation of the people. lie certainly did think
there would be much more good sense in an eight
hours' Bill, than one for ten hours. The principle was
the same, and the probability was greater of effecting
the object they had before thew. The man who had
worked ten hours was so fatigued as to be unable to

attend to what was intended-to enlighten his mind
—(Hean) He (Lord Brougham) had had experience
of that for twenty-five years, during which he had en-
deavoured to educate the labouring classes, and had been
successfully defeated by sleep.—(Laughter.) But the
most remarkable thing was that all the good was to be
obtained at the sacrifice of one-sixth of the working
man's week's wages. Mr. Arkwright,
.a gentleman who
possessed four mills in the North Riding of Yorkshire,hort
having heard that his men. were agitating a time,
hish workmen.l The
fiffirasdteaandinlairgseaslt ofm islhlodretcitdimede floor the long time ; the
time ; and
lie put
one at least of the mills on short time, accordingto
tshece°tnhdi'rdbyanad lfaorargethmdeajcidrietdy'focrhothsee tsheortontiae.
own election, but they had not been long undertahedinineiw.
their
arrangement till they discovered that there was
nu
re-considered their choice. But there
was another tion of their wages. This was a new fact, and they
majority. In theory it was
sent up the Bill backed by
au-
thority against this Bill. The House of Commons had
Bill was rejected by
March, 1844, the Twelve hours
after
they rejected
to be reckoned the same House of Commons. Well, iu
a majority of three ; shortlyof
7_
not the same ma-
joritya Ten Hours' Bill by a majorityeither have the Ten Hours nor
the Twelve Hours' Bill,
andELau hter.) The 3d of May
; and they would n
not yet been heard of. the Eleven Hours even had
But the year 1846 came,
good workable majority of 137.
The Corn Bill had been
came, and the Ten Hours'— Billg was again rejected by a
and with a split in the House.
passed, and the land-men'and the wool-men pitted
been
one against another. A measure affecting corn
carried, and the other party were now
determined to turn
e we
rhea d
against the mills. A short period of three years got a
majority of 108 for the second reading ; such was the
unaccountable change. And was this the time when the
House of Commons should come to such a
conc
lu
sj°n ; a time when everything was threatening,
and food riots were occurring in the country ?•
Was this a measure to enforce in the present state of
things, when in our country, the other day, 200 special.
constables were sworn in, in consequence of the food
riots; when the people were craving for employment ando
food, was this the time, upon speculation, upon
shadows, and upon fantasy, to pass a measure which
would curtail the four great and staple manufactures of
England? Nothing could injure or curtail manufactures,
or in the slightest way injure :hem, that did not, of ne-
cessity injure man. The wool trade was one of the four
that was to be struck at by this Bill. 240,000 tons were
grown, and they were about to cut off one-sixth part of
the labour upon it; and would not that, of necessity, cut
down a part of the labour. He had heard the speeches
of the Noble mover and seconder of this measure, and
they were characterised by an absence of all personal
reflection, and therefore bis observations did not apply
to them, but to less wise men elsewhere. A
measure to be worthy of the sanction and
adoption of the Legislature, and to be
useful must combine beneficence with benevolence.
The execution of good was as essential as the will to do
it, in order eff,ctually lo benefit those for whom it was
designed. There were, ho admitted, thousands of poor,
hard- worked, half-famished men engaged in the manu-
factories, and they all wished to remedy their sufferings,
but their reason should be convinced of the efficacy or
the measure they adopted before they passed it. They
should not pass it because their feelings of compassion
were roused without seeing clearly that that which was

consumption of tallow, wool, and many other similar
articles of manufacturing consumption, besides reducing
the amount of shipping employed by this country. It
was, therefore, almost impossible to calculate the in-
jury the passing of the Bill would inflict upon this
country. This country did not depend upon the
greater number of hours which her labourers
worked, in competing with the foreigner, but
upon the superiority of her machinery —(liear )
Well, then, if the working of that machinery ;ere to be
reduced, what a serious effect it would have upon the
export trade of the country. He, therefore, imph red
their Lordships not to be led away by an impression that
in passing this Bill they improved the condition of the
labourer, because it was clear, that it it reduced the trade
of the country, it must, as a necessary con,equence, di-
minish the wages of the manufacturing labourer.
He thought the present time was not favourable for this
experiment. He agreed with the Noble and Learned
Lord that the operatives were not favourable to the Bill,
and that they had never asked for it. There were mills
at present working six, eight, and ten hours a day.
and among the manufacturing population, this state of
things was by no means satisfactory. Let them apply
the rule proposed by this Bill to other classes in so-
ciety as well as manufacturing. Let him ask their Lord-
ships how they would like an Act of Parliament corn,
pelliug them to dispense with the sixth of the labour of
their domestic servants ? What did they think of the
Legislature enforcing them, then, to accept the sixth of
the labour of their own agricultural labourers ? Let him
ask the Noble Duke opposite how he would like such a
proposition ?
The Duke of RICHMOND could see no reasonable
objection to it if the half of the agricultural labourers
died from excessive labour—(Hear, hear.)
The Earl of CLARENDON said that that was all
assumption in which he could not agree with regard to
the manufacturing population. He deprecated inter-
ference with the income of the poor man. By
this measure they were interfering with him, and were
inflicting the most serious injury to the working classes
of this country. For these reasons, therefore, he would
record his vote against the measure.
The Bishop of OXFORD would state the reasons
which induced him to give his vote in favour of this
measure before the House. It was contended that the
supporters of this Bill were driving the manufacturers of
the country abroad, and that they were interfering with
the legitimate property of the manufacturers. Now,
how did the case stand ? Why, this very class—the
manufacturers themselves—had, to the extent of two-
thirds of their number, petitioned in favour of the
measure. He denied that the Bill was an interference
with the legitimate profits of business. It was only an
interference with unsound and injurious speculation.—
(Hear, hear.) It was nothing but an assumption
that one-sixth of the income of the working classes
would be taken away by the measure. He himself put
that proposition to sums working mechanics, and was
told by them in reply that that was the argument of my
—(Laughter.) But what was their
even
aljnosrs(v-lerßtro°iutg."Tinh'ey said that they could not admit its
if it was so they could not see their
truth, but
children growing up with their bodies wasted and their
minds injured even to save that one-sixth of their
income.—(Bear, hear.) The Noble Earl told them that
the exported thirty-seven millions of goods annually,
and that by the present Bill they would be cutting off

offered to them as a remedy would really have the eff‘et one-sixth of that amount. He thought that the asser-
intended. He had himself seen the toils of these, unfor- tion of the two last hours of the day's labour being the I
. 1311.11 engaged e ineeitare. Fr! hr m mn
the or the aufactilryr was itiourr- • • '
in a
returning to their homes torn o'tt s!xteen or seven. b.. •. upon too nice a e•ticulatitet. lie ttiz:t
teen hours of labour, with garments drenched with per- those last two hours were not hours of profit, taxing as
spiration, without even the comfort of a change of they did excessively the energies of the poor creatures
clothes, or the comfort—to them a luxury—of fuel. He who were engaged at those factories, and that they were
had seen these, and was not the condition of the hardest rather a drawback than otherwise on the labour of
worked factory labourer to be envied by such men as the rest of the day. Those who knew their own inte-
these ? Their physical existence was affected, and a rests had taken this view of the matter. The Messrs.
man employed as a farm labourer was at the age of 45 Marshall of Leeds, for instance, had cut off one of these
as infirm as a man of 70 in the upper classes of life; and hours, and had reduced the time in their factories to
if they spoke of unhealthy employment, why did they not eleven hours. In the case of another firm, which had
turn their attention to other occupations far more delete- taken an account of the work done for five weeks before
rious and destructive than that of factory labour. There a reduction of the hours of labour, and five weeks after-
were the workers in steel and brass, who lived in an atmos- wards, it was found that more work had been dune dur-
phere filled with the filings of the metals upon which ing the ten hours than during the twelve._(Hear, hear.)
they worked, and who died at early ages from diseases A measure, the very counterpart of this, had been
engendered by it. Why did they not pass such a Inca- brought forward by the late Sir Robert Peel, in 1815,
sure with regard to them? Why, it would be to them and from that time to the present it had been agitating
as it was to the factory labourers, an act of the grossest the public mind, and frequent attempts had been made
and most cruel injustice ; and yet the workers in brass, to obtain for it the sanction of the Legislature.
from the time of Tubal Cain downwards, were destroyed They had already made several preliminary steps which
by their occupations. It was upon all these grounds, might serve to give them some experience of the opera-
and with many apologies for having so long detained tion of the Bill. They had passed a Bill against women
them, that he asked them to refuse their assent to the working in mines. That was against much opposition;
Bill, and moved that it be read that day six months. but the result had been with increased good effect, both
The Bishop of LONDON said that he felt that he to the women themselves, the subjects of that legislative
laboured under a great disadvantage in following the measure, and to the masters of those mines. They had
Noble Lord who had just spoken ; but he felt bound to passed a Bill limiting the time to twelve hours in those
express to their Lordships his entire concurrence in the very factories, and the result had been so far
measure which they had then under discussion, and beneficial. The result must be good. The want
which had been so ably attacked by the Noble Lord who of the measure was evinced by dire effects
had just sat down. He gave his assent to the measure on the physical and moral condition of the
without the smallest feeling of doubt upon his mind labourers.—(Hear.) It became then not a question of
that the grounds upon which it was proposed were wealth or loss. Wealth so gained was unlawfully
unsafe or unsound.—(Hear, hear.) He was ready gained, and therefore the Legislature could not sanction
to admit as a general principle, that they should not in- it by refusing to interfere. But why were the capitalists
terfere with the free competition for labour ; but there i able to impose the amount of labour? That was the
were circumstances which might warrant such an inter- question of the Noble Earl (Clarendon). He answered,
ference, and render it necessary. lie thought that it that the alternative offered them was no work at all?
was the duty of a Government to protect the interests Long hours or no work—such was the alternative, the
of any large class of the community when it was likely dire alternative, offered to the needy workman, and
to suffer, and to remove, as far as it could, any evils could their Lordships doubt which he must choose ?
which pressed upon them unnecessarily. It was with How, then, if their Lordships did not interfere, were
regard to the large body of children employed on fee- they to retrieve themselves ?—how, but by corn-
tory labour, that he thought this measure most parti bitting against their masters. Were their Lord-
cularly deserving of their Lordships' attention. The ships prepared for that result, and the attendant
physical condition, and the moral condition of the evils? Were they prepared to encounter these, or to drive
children were objects to which their attention ought to be the stay of the country—the labouring classes—from
directed in whatever occupation they were engaged. j their shores to a foreign land? On what did their supe-
The Noble Lord had painted to them in glowing colours riority as a manufacturing nation rest ? On these two
the miseries suffered by the agricultural labourer, but things—the security in this country of all vested pro •
he (the Bishop of London) thought that the picture was perty; and, 2d, the physical strength of the people, and
overdrawn. The agricultural labourer could breathe their patience in attending upon machinery. Were they
the pure air, and see the clear light of Heaven, and he prepared to drive the population to that extremity that
could at any time suspend his toil—even though it were the manufacturer should be in dread of seeing his pro-
only for a few minutes—so as to prevent that exhaustion perty in flames; or to countenance a system which as
of strength and spirits which continuous labour would certainly reduced their physical strength as it existed,
necessarily entail. The factory labourer, on and thereby to cut off the right hand of their strength
the contrary, was shut up in a close factory, and their greatness ? He trusted their Lordships would
and could not rest for a moment. The ma- better consider the results of their decision ere they came
chinery was kept continuously in motion, for a given to a vote upon the Bill.
number of hours, and a given amount of work was to Lord BROUGHAM explained.
be done. This had its natural effect upon the labourer; Lord WHARNCLIFFE—The question before them
and was marked by the exhausted spirit, the debilitated now was not a new one. It was important, and it had
frame, and the early death. It was a fact, notorious to occupied an important space on the attention of the
all in the manufacturing districts, tho labour caused a Legislature ; it had come before them in 1801 ; it had
fearfully increased number of deaths. The average du- been taken up again in 1815 ; it was again before Par-
ration of human life, in the manufacturing districts, liament in 1831, in 1844, and 1846. During all that
was one-half shorter among the factory labourers than time public opinion had grown ; the votes of the other
amongst the other operative classes. This was not the House of Parliament and public sentiment had both
only evil which arose; for, with the children employed, progressed, till, when the Bill was before the other
not only physical weakness, but a want of mental cul- House of Parliament, petitions were presented with
tivation was the consequence. Before they reached the 178,000 signatures, while only something like 1,000
age of thirteen, they might, perhaps, be sent to an were sent in against it. The Noble Lord, who spoke
evening school ; but after thirteen a double amount of throughout in a very low tone of voice, concluded by
labour was thrown upon them, and their physical stating that he would support the Bill.
powers being too much exhausted during the day, to The Bishop of ST. DAVIDS regretted to rise at that
admit of their attending an evening school, they lost all late hour of the night, or to weaken the effect of the elo-
that they had learned. It might be argued that this in- quent and tender address of the Right Rev. Prelate who
terference would—pro Canto—injure either the working had preceded him. But some things had struck his mind
classes, by reducing their wages, or the property of the with great power, and he hoped he might be allowed
manufacturer. That argument was not borne out by shortly to address their Lordships. He agreed with
the facts which had already existed ; for the former many things which had fallen from the Noble and
Factory Bill had produced neither any serious di- Learned Lord, and yet he felt compelled to give his vote
minution of the produce of woollen goods, or in in support of the motion by the Noble Earl (El-
the wages paid to the operative.—(Hear. hear.) lesmere). There was one thing which fell from
His Noble and Learned Friend had told their Lord- the Noble and Learned Lord which seemed to him to
ships that the adoption of this Bill would considerably have no foundation whereon to rest. Ile said that this
reduce the manufacturing produce of the country. Now was a subject on which legislation could not interfere.
it was a well known fact that from the best and purest Why ? Ou what did he rest the assertion ? Was the
motives a large number of mill-owners had long ago Legislature a body less free from sinister motives,or more
prescribed the short hour system in their own eeta- likely to be moved by a bias ? Did the Noble and
blishments with the greatest success. Now was that a Learned Lord say so on the authority of what he con-
sufficient answer to the argument of his Noble and ceived to be the principles of Political Economy ?
Learned Friend. In his own humble judgment it was, What was the principle of Political Economy ?
for he could not believe that the mill-owner to whom he Why, that the Legislature should not in-
had alluded could be so blind to their own interests terfere with free industry. But hero lay thi-
ns to continue the system they ha 1 commenced fallacy. It was assumed that industry was free.
if it reduced their trade. Now, the truth was, it had In going back into the history of the factory system,
produced no such effect. It had improved the condition they could not deny but that great abuses had existed,
of their labourers, both in mind and body, and the result and that many of the manufacturers had not done that
had been that the former productions of their mills had towards the working population which was desirable on
not been reduced by the disinterested step they had their part to do. No doubt circumstances had done
taken. There could be no doubt that, at the present much to cause them to pursue the course which they
moment, the manufacturing interest was suffering from had done ; bat on that very account he thought that in-
the severest privations, and yet the labourers employed terference was required, in order to put an end to the
by that interest, were patient and contented under their evils and abuses which existed in the system. In the
sufferings, and he was therefore glad, that in course of the present debate, the Noble and Learned
supporting this measure, Government had showed Lord opposite (Lord Brougham) had endeavoured to
that they sympathised with them in their sufferings. In alarm them with a fearful picture of what was to follow
conclusion, he had only to assure their Lordships that he if the measure passed—that wages would be reduced,
believed tbis measure would add to tb.. 'ailuence of this profits would fall, and general distress overtake the ma
country, and improve the sons of toil, and it was upon nufacturing districts. Now to that he (the Bishop o
that ground he supported it. St. David's) would answer, that those who had fully con-
The Duke of RICHMOND would not have risen had sidered the question, and who well knew the nature of
it not been for one or two remarks which had fallen from this branch of industry, declared that this was a
his Noble and Learned Friend who had addressed their a gross exaggeration, and that the estimate of the evils
Lordships at so much length. His Noble and Learned apprehended had no foundation whatever in fact. Not
Friend had told them that the majority of the mill only the most intelligent of the working population, but
owners were opposed to this Bill. Now that was not the many of the greatest manufacturers of the country had
case. The mill-owners were supporters of this Bill, wet these objections, and shown that they were falla•
and although he entertained the utmost disrespect cious and unsound. Though it had been said that this
for the mill-owners or the Anti-corn-law League's would be a perilous experiment, he contended that the
support, he cordially agreed with them in supporting peril was all on the side of the system the Bill sought to
this measure. His Noble and Learned Friend had told amend, and he therefore called on their Lordships to act
them that an agricultural labourer was not so strong as on the humane peinciple
to
labour. His objection any one of their Lordships who had reached the age of the greatest number,andsecond reading of
support the
seventy. Now, if his Noble and Learned Friend wished the Bill.—(Cheers.) o
interference the
of age, who would carry anybeware es by injudicious it, he could produce an agricultural labourer from Lord ASHBURTON
Sussex, of forty-five years lest
ay
working
one of their Lordships upon his back without any diffi- the bread of a
culty, and in his opinion few Noble Lords couldaccom. engaged in factorygreat body of the working population
called on their Lordships to
plish such a feat as that.—(Great laughter.) to the present
measure was, that they
Lord CLARENDON felt constrained o oppose this perfect knowledge were proceeding with most im-
measure, because he felt that it would oppress and consider the
greatest
t they eytook happinessasi
Injure those who were to be benefited by it rather Might
Reverend Prelate r
than improve their condition.—(Hear, hear.) But per authorities to decide the
question, and he, for P •
with that result, but it would inflict a serious injury and sentiments of the he felt that it would not only be attended had been' taken one, would have been glad if steps
population referred to by the
case of cruelty or injustice on the part of the employer had to submit to thei
upon the trade of the country. Besides, there was no present time the man et. master manufacturers. At the
tirfire more fully into the feelings
made out for this Bill, and considering that at this markets of the world, andetehneeyst
manufacturing producer of this country
petition in all the
moment the factory labourer did not on the average work ere they aggravated that
more than eleven hours per day at very easy work, he contained a clause for elevenstate of things. Had the Bill
sup-
thought there was no necessity fur their Lordships fur- ported it, but as it did not c h
they interfering in the progress of the trade of the vote for the amendment of t ours, he would have
us
ntain such a clause, h
oh
Nouocobgmlhet
atehderLefeoarreeeto pause
country. There could be no doubt that the Bill, if it The gallery was then cleared for a divisiond,eLwmohredn.
were passed, would materially reduce the manufac- there appeared—
turing productions of the country, and it must, For the second reading of the Bill,
therefore, of necessity, reduce trade, and see- Contents , .................................. 53
ing that, as in former instances, there was no Against the Bill ..... 11
Majority for the
crying evil to be put down by the Bill, he could ......
second reading.........................
—42
nat conscientiously give it his support. But be- Their Lordships then adjourned at a Quarter pas
fore their Lordships gave their assent to this Bill, it Twelve o'clock.
was their duty to consider what effect it would have
upon other branches of trade than manufacturers. In
the first place, a reduction of the hours of labour, from
twelve to ten hours, would largely reduce the consump-
tion of coal in this country. It would also reduce the

SOUSE OF COMMONS, May 17.
SCHOOLS OF DESIGN.
Mr. WAKLEY said there was a second question, and
he hoped he should have a more satisfactory answer
than to the first. It was with reference to the school of
design, and he wished to know when the evidence taken
before a Special Committee of the council of th,, SeltoA
of Design, as to the state and management of the ichou!,
is to be presented to the House?
Mr. M. GIBSON said that he regretted that such
delay had taken place, but he thought that in ten days
at furthest he might be able to furnish these returns.
Mr. H. BAILLIE said that he had asked the Govern-
ment the other night, whether it was their intention to
restrict the amount of grain in distilleries until the pre•
sent crisis should be past?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that the Government did not think it pohtio on their
part to interfere with the commerce of the country, by
placing any restriction upon one of its most important
channels. Ho found that the distillers had stated to the
Government, that they were about to use a large quan-
tity of sugar for the purposes of distillation, and had
requested that several of the preliminary investigations
might be dispensed with. Under his (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) direction, it had been notified that all
coffee,
was to be
eere and other
articles easu re
the obstacles that could be dispensed with should be re-
moved, for he considered it exceedingly desirable.
:z whether of tea,
Mr. HUME said that this day week he would put a
question to the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern-
ment, as to whether it was his intention to take any
m
any reduction of the duty?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that the Government had received notice that a consi-
derable quantity of molasses was required for distilla•
tion ; but there had been a consideration of other arti-
cles, with a view to ascertain whether they should re-
duce the duties on other articles mentioned in the Cus-
toms Duties Act, and they had found that although the
importation of the articles bad increased, the prices had
not been raised. Among those especially were the arti-
cles of sugar and tea.
ENLISTMENT OF MARINES.
Captain LAYARD moved for returns connected will
the enlistment of marines during the last five years.
Mr. EWART wished to know whether the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government had any objection
to lay upon the table of the House the address of the
board of wine-growers, presented a short time back ?
Lord J. RUSSELL replied that there would be no
objection whatever.
COLONIAL GOVERNMENTS.
Mr. HUME said he wished to ask the Under-Secre-
tary for the Culonics a question, of which he had given
notice. It would be remembered that last session he
presented a petition from Van Diemen's Land, signed by
6,000 persons, praying the House to apply the repro
scntative system of government to that island. Now the
question he wished to ask was, whether Government had
been m:tturing any plan for extending the privilege and
rights of representative bodies to that island and th,
other colonies ?
Mr. HAVES said, in answer to the question of his
Hononourable Friend, he had to state that the subjeet
to which he had referred had not been lost sight of.
There was a measure in contemplation—hemieht say, in
preparation—with the view to give the hmetits of
Briti,h Constitution to the Australian cohbete-t, which
had generally included Van Diemen's Lard. H.• di
not think, however, that the measure could be intr.-
duced in the present se:;sion.

TRANSPORTATION.
Mr. EWART asked the lion. Gentleman the Seere-
t,ty r..r sac, C,iunies Gc,voria:m,ffi; had ari3 lU

t ,n-tion of reviirig: the pre:L.:nt system of traT-:gportl4tion.
with a view to an alteration in the law?

Mr. HAWES said the subject would shortly come
under discussion in that House, when his Noble Friend
the First Lord of the Treasury would be prepared to
state fully what his intentions were.

CORN RETURNS,
Mr. P. MILES said, in the early part of the session
he moved for certain corn returns in continuation of
those which had been annually laid before the House for
many years past. It was, however, communicated to
him, that an addition he had made to the return would
cause a delay in making the return, and ho intimated to
the corn-inspector that he would not press for that part
of the return. Still, the return was not forthcoming,
and he therefore wished to ask the Hon. Gentleman

(the Vice-President of the Board of Trade) whether
the return would shortly be laid upon the table of the

House ?
Mr. MILNER GIBSON said the order was made
upon the Treasury, and not upon the Board of Trade ;
but, nevertheless, he would make inquiry into the cause
of the delay.
POOR-LAWS.
On the order of the day being read for the second
reading of the Poor-law Administration Bill,
Mr. FERRAND asked the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer whether the private defence of the Poor-law
Commissioners to the charges brought against them
before the Andover Union Committee (intitled, " Let-
ters addressed by the Poor-law Commissioners to the
Secretary of State, respecting the transaction of the
business of the Commission, &c., &c., &c.," embellished
with the Royal Arms, and " printed by W. Clowes
and Sons, Stamford-street, for her Majesty's Stationery
Office)," has been printed and circulated with the sanc-
tion of her Majesty's Government ;—if printed and cir-
culated with the sanction of her Majesty's Government,
whether he intends the expense to be defrayed out of
the public purse ;—if printed and circulated at the pub-
lic expense, whether he will lay upon the table of the
House a statement of the expense ? The defence, the
Hon. Member asserted, contained most unjust calumnies
and flagrant untruths, and had not only been circulated
amongst Members of that House, but had been for-
warded to different tradesmen throughout the country.
He held in his band, for instance, a copy which had been
sent to a tradesman in Oxford-street.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
with regard to the first question, the Poor-law Commis-
sioners were called upon by his Right Hon. Friend the
Secretary of State for the Home Department to make a
defence in answer to certain inquiries which he had
caused to be instituted into their proceedings, and the
Commissioners made what the Hon. Gentleman called a
private defence, which was comprised in certain letters
which were laid upon the table of the House. He did
not think, therefore, that the defence could be strictly
called a private one. It was certainly true that the let-
ters had been published and circulated by the Commis-
sioners, and it had been done by the consent of the Go-
vernment. With regard to the second question, he cer-
tainly thought the expense ought to be defrayed out of
the public funds, because, in publishing the correspon-
dence, the Commissioners had only to act in conformity
with their usual practice in such matters.
POOR LAW IRELAND.
Mr. P. SCROPE desired to ask the Secretary f.ir
Ireland, whether he was prepared to lay upon the
table of the House any statement as to the progress of
the system of relief in Ireland under the Temporary
Relief Act ? He also wished to know, whether there
was any compulsory power to compel the Relief Com-
mittee to do their duty, and in cases where they would
not do so, to discharge them and appoint fresh officers?
The Honourable Member adverted to a charge made
against Lord Berehaven, that there had been great
destitution on his estate, and that he only subscribed
twenty shillings a month, and that he subsequently
withdrew that relief altogether, confining himself for
ten months to the inside of his demesne, the gates of
which were strictly lucked.

Mr. LABOUCHERE said that there would be a
report laid upon the table of the House which would
give his Hon. Friend all the information he desired, he
'NJ's anxious to say that it was no fault of Sir John 3ur-
goyne that a great many evils had occurred, it was quite
true there was great indisposition on the part of many
Relief Commissioners to aid the Government, and the
people themselves desired to return to the ancient system
uf road begging. In conclusion he would only say that
fr, on his knowledge of Lord Berehaven, he would not
believe that he had been guilty of such inhumanity as
that stated by the Hon. Member. That NoMe Lord had
expressed to him such a concern for the poor in his
iltighbourhood, that he could not come to any other
Mr. SHAW said that he was quite sure that Lord
Berehaven could perfectly clear himself of such a charge.
And on the part of the Irish proprietors, be would say
that the Member for Stroud took advantage in that
House to say things which he could not justify out of it.
Mr. B. OSBORNE said that it was rather hard to
blame the Hon. Member for Stroud for his observations
on the Irish landlords, for such a course was so popular,
that it was not to be wondered at.
WARNER'S EXPERIMENT.
Lord INGESTRE said, with reference to an answer
from a Member of the Government respecting Captain
Warner's invention, he would say that he himself was
a witness of the late experiment, and he wholly disagreed
in the unfavourable opinion which was given of it.
NEW POOR-LAW BILL.
Mr. FERRAND, on the order of the day for the second
reading of the New Poor Law Bill being read, asked
the Law Officers of the Crown, by what authority Par-
liament is invested with the right to delegate to any
person, or body of persons, the power of making rules
and orders which shall be as binding and authoritative
upon the people of England and Wales as an Act of
Parliament ? If Parliament is not thus authorised, by
what statute can the people of England and Wales be
forced to obey, as law, the rules and orders of the Poor-
law Commissioners ? If there be no statute, have not
all persons committed to prison for disobeying the rules
and orders of the Poor-law Commissioners been illegally
deprived of their liberty?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that Parliament
had an inherent right to delegate its power to any person
or persons in such a manner as should be binding upon
the people. He mentioned courts of law, and other
tribunals, as instances where this power had been
exercised.
Sir JOHN WALSH desired to ask the Member for
Stroud whether he had communicated with Lord Bere-
haven relative to the charge he brought against him.
Mr. P. SCROPE replied that he had not, and that it
was objected to mention anonymous cases. He would
be quite happy if Lord Berehaven was enabled through
his means to justify himself, for the present was not the
first time such charges had been made.
THE MOTT CASE.

Mr. FERRAND desired to ask the Secretary
of State for the Home Department whether the
appointment of Mr. Mott to the office of district
auditor received the sanction of the Poor-law
Commissioners after he had been dismissed from
the office of Assistant Poor-law Commissioner ? Whe-
ther the Poor-law Commissioners allowed him to hold
the office of district auditor at the time that he was part
proprietor of the Haydock Lodge Lunatic Asylum, or
after the Commissioners in Lunacy declared, in their
report on the state of the Haydock Lodge Lunatic
Asylum, that Mr. Mott had failed to fulfil a positive
and solemn pledge which he had given to the justices of
Lancashire, and that he appeared quite unworthy of
the trust, and became most negligent and remiss in the
discharge of his functions? Whether they have al-
lowed him to hold the office of district auditor of Lanca-
shire, whilst living in the Isle of Man, out of the way of
his creditors; after he was seized by a sheriff's officer,
when on his read to audit the union accounts; during
the time he was a prisoner in Lancaster Castle; and
after a public advertisement appeared in the Times
newspaper, warning the public not to pay him money
belonging to the proprietors of the Haydock Lodge
Lunatic Asylum? Whether he has again abandoned
the discharge of his duties, and left England, although
holding the office of district auditor?
Sir G. GREY said Mr. Mott had not been dismissed,
nor had he ceased to hold the situation referred to.
There had been 37 candidates for the situation, from
whom two had been selected. At the election made by
the guardians there had been ten votes for Mr Gardiner
,and fourteen for Mr. Mott. The Act of Parliament did
not require the sanction of the Poor law Commissioner
to the election ; nor was it considered that his manage-
ment' of the Haydock lodge Lunatic Asylum was a legal
disqualification to his holding the office. That part of
the question which referred to the justices having de
;
Glared him unworthy of his trust was not correct and
further, the Poor-law Commissioners had no official
in-
formation of the allegations in the third part o' the
question ; and with regard to the fourth, the Poor-law
Commissioners had received letters from Mr. Mott.
upon official business, from Manchester, dated the 7th
May, where they believed him to be at present re-
siding.
POOR-LAW ADMINISTRATION BILL.
The Order of the Day for the second reading of the
Poor-law Administration Bill being read,
Mr. BANKES presented a petition from a union in
Dorsetshire, complaining of the conduct of the auditor
for neglect of duty, and that they had received no re-
dress from the Poor-law Commissioners.
The petition was ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. FERRAND said he was thankful to his Right
Hon. Friend, the Attorney-General, for the manly man-
ner in which he had answered his question. Notwith-
standing, however, the high respect which he enter-
tained for the legal knowledge of his Learned Friend,
he would be enabled to produce much higher authority
to bear out his own view of the case. He could not but
express his astonishment at the declaration made by
the Right Honourable Baronet, the Secretary for the
Home Department, that Mr. Mott had not been dismissed
particularly when it had been stated by the Right
Hon. Baronet who had preceded the Home Secretary in
that office, had declared that he had been dismissed, and
that the Hon. Member for Bolton knew the cause why
he had been removed. He would leave that between
twhreomng; but he could. a
but observe that something
had been said to one or the other of them. He
was ready to admit that the Right Hon. Baronet had
said what he believed to be true. At the close of last
session the present Secretary for the Home Department
had give a pledge that a Committee would be appointed
in the present session to inquire into the poor-laws.
Sir GEORGE GREY denied that he had given any
such pledge.
Mr. FERRAND said there could be no doubt that he
had been so reported in all the papers. The Noble Lord
the First Lord of the Treasury, had also declared that
he was prepared to defend the conduct of the Poor-law
Commissioners. He would that night have an opportu-
nity- of doing it. He hoped he would do so, and pruve
that the new poor law had obtained for the people the
bie,sings which were held out would follow in its train—
that it had been a blessing, aad not a curse. Re, at all