The Sun.
London, England, 1847-12-10 00:00:00

E U

!solved upon by a large meeting in Tipperary. Now,
how %amid the Noble laord have
11.,0111 some of the parties present ? lie disbelieved
ine whole story from beginning to end. What se-
curity could there be for its truth ? By no rational
argument could this Bill be shown to be to: the pro-
tection of life and property, The same sort of feel-
ing would prevail after it; enactment as now, so that
nothing would be gained by it. He for one was not
disposed to object to the Bill because it was unac-
companied by remedial measures, knowing how
mars obstacles there were to the immediate
SlitrOduction of such measures. He did not
suppose an Act of Parliament could be at once pre-
pared to remedy those great defects in the law ofland-
inrd and tenant. He wished to see it done delibe-
rately. He joined with the Honourable Member for
,
.t.,ontrose in hoping, that nothing would be done by
the House on that subject which would do injustice
to landlords, who, he believed were well disposed to
Veld to every fair and reasonable proposition. He
Pad heard that a Bill, prepared on this subject had
.been sent over to Ireland, and returned by the Lord-
Lieutenant for alteration ; therefore he was not at
all disposed to doubt the promises of remedial mea-
sures made by the Government. Much had been
said lately on the subject of statements supposed to
be made by the priests from the altar. There was
not a corner of the country in which there were not
Well-educated and loyal men, and he did not believe
that any one of the Roman Catholic clergy would
dare to
.get up in the face of his congregation and
snake any statement that would instigate to assassina-
tion. He knew, as every one must know, that it was
the habit in country chapels on Sundays for the cler-
gyman to give notice of deaths, marriages, or any
either remarkable events which might have occurred
among his congregation; but these notices were
trenerally intended to effect some good object. He
had once heard a priest tell his parishioners of the
great Mr. So-and-So, having lost thirty turkeys from
bis farm-yard ; and the comment was, " All I can say
is, that if Mr. Burke gave more of his ;turkeys to his
friezeds, he would miss them less."—(Laughter.) He
was sare the country clergymen of Ireland never
could have done the things which had been attributed
to them. He could never give a vote for a Bill of
this kind, which had so much coercion in it.
Mr. O'CONNOR said the Hon. Member for Mon-
trose had fallen into some unintentional errors. He
had told the House in one breath of the facility with
which murderers received absolution, and in the next
of the exemplary character of the Clergy in Ireland.
If the Honourable Member for' Limerick was charge-
able with having given his assent to the first reading
of this Bill, at all events he (Mr. O'Connor) could
not be taunted with opposing it now on the same
ground, because he had met it at the outset with the
strongest opposition. If any one argument more
strongly in point than another could be urged for
Producing remedial measures ccmtemporaneously with
this Bill, the Hon. Member for Montrose had
urged it, when he said, that at every public meeting
of the people of England he ever attended, they had
denounced the tyranny of the Irish Government, and
the injustice practised against the Irish people.
This was the first constructive coercion Bill which
had been introduced into that House, as was elicited
by the answer given by the Right lion. Gentleman
to the sight Hon. Baronet the Member for Tam--
Worth, implying that it embraced all previous acts of
Coercion, which were to be put into operation at the
instance of the Lord-Lieutenant. Therefore he re-
cognized in the pretended mildness of this measure a
kind of legal draw-note, which was to embrace every
Other measure, a mockery, a delusion, and a snare.
Ile had searched the library and every other place
in vain for the 85th volume of Hansard (this was the
Corpus delicti, and had evidently been abstracted, by
some judicious men s), containing the speeches of the
Noble Lord and Right Hon. Gentleman opposite
on the introduction of the coercion Bill by the
Government of the Right Honourable Member
for Tamworth. The Right Honourable Gentleman
the Secretary for Ireland moved the amend-
ment, and, at the conclusion of his speech, said
the reason why he opposed the Bill was that remedial
Measures did not accompany it. His Bill would be
▪ shut-up knife in the hands of the Lord-Lieutenant,
and he might open as many blades as he pleased. The
law, as it at present stood, had not been applied in
Ireland alike to the rich and the poor man. A cousin
of his (Mr. F. O'Connor), who had been educated in
ngland, was appointed, upon his leaving Oxford, to
the office of stipendiary magistrate in Ireland, and
the first case upon which he had to adjudicate was a
summons by a labourer against a landlord for wages
lie gave his decision against the landlord, and the
consequence was, that the landlord next morning
called the magistrate out, and the magistrate had the
Misfortune to shoot his adversary.—(A laugh.) Such
was the state of society in Ireland. There was a
laugh when the landlord was shot in a duel ; but
there was sympathy for him when he was otherwise
shot. Why not better the law in Ireland ? Let
them teach the peasantry to rely upon the ordinary
law of the land in the same way that they had done
with respect to the colliers in the north of England.
But no, the Government would not do that, because
they thought they were a strong Government ; but if
every Irish Member had his feeling, they would act
on the suggestion of the Hon. Member for Bucking-
hamshire (Mr. Disraeli), and, instead of tampering
with the sore, eradicate the wound altogether.
Lord DUDLEY STUART said he considered
that it was a most melancholy circumstance that that
House should now be called upon to consider a
measure of this kind, after so many years of pro-
fessions from various Governments, and he believed
the honest professions, of a desire to ameliorate the
condition of Ireland. He felt that it was most me-
lancholy that they should at that time of day be
occupied in discussing a measure in some degree
Coercive in its character. He fully admitted that the
People of Ireland had been brought into their present
Condition by the misconduct of former Governments
--by misgovernment conducted during years and
Centuries. The seed of the present state of things
had been sown by former Governments, and that was
a reason why he thought that the House was doubly
bound to do all in its power to promote the welfare
and advantage of Ireland, as some compensation for
the injustice and misgovernment which she had ex-
perienced. He thought that was a reason why they
should look upon the faults and offences committed
in Ireland with indulgence. But that was no reason
against passing this Bill, which was meant not to press
upon the people of Ireland, but to put a stop to a
state of things which was almost without a parallel.
Some of the Hon. Gentlemen who represented Irish
constituencies had spoken as if there was some hostile
feeling in that House and in the country against the
people of Ireland. He utterly disclaimed all feeling,
of the sort. lie utterly disclaimed it for the consti-
tuency which he represented; and he diselaimed it
for the country at large. He believed that the people
of England desired that their Irish brethren should
Participate in every advantage which they themselves
enjoyed ; and he could not take that Bill as any proof
to the contrary. The Hon. Member for Limerick
had mad use of an expression with regard to the
feeling of that House towards Ireland which he (Lord
Dudley Stuart) had heard with a great deal of pain.
The Hon. Member, deliberately repeating what he
bad asseeted in heat and exasperation, said, that
there was not one instance in which a feeling
of kindness or justice had been expressed in the
House towards his country. He (Lord Dudley
Stuart) had lamented, he confessed, to hear such
words from one who bore the name he did—
& name which he would always pronounce with
that admiration which was due to transcendent talent
s=ercised, as he believed, according to the dictates of
duty, as the distinguished individual who possessed it
understood it. He (Lord D. Stuart) said that he la-
ronted to hear such words from the lion. Gentleman,
who in consequence of bearing that name must be
supposed to be one standing high among the Mem-
bers of the country to which he belonged, as one of
their leaders. He was, however, he confessed, greatly
consoled when upon the division he found that the
Ron. Gentleman had excited so little sympathy
amongst his colleagues, that he actually in that divi-
sion found himself in a minority of his own country-
men. More Irish Members voted against him than
with him. The lion. Gentleman, therefore, in mak-
ing use of the language and uttering the sentiments
to which he (Lord D. Stuart) had just referred, was
,bv no means the representative of the Irish feeling.
The Hon. Gentleman had endeavoured to show, not
utuly that there was a bad feeling in that House
aosisist his cow le of England. He
, but that a similar feel-
ing pervaded the whom peo p
quote some expressions in the Examiner, in which
the wri.tisea with that glowing language which be-
longed to him, said that England was ready to sup-
port the Go vernment in a much stronger Bill than
that which w,Na before the House, and even to assent
to a Bill that a,'‘.ould that a man should be first
hung and then trited•—•(Grt laughter.) He (Lord
Dudley Stuart) believed ilia were was a good deal
of truth in that article of the E4,e,,,uniner. But the
Honourable Gentleman must kno *quill no man knew
better, how quickly the public feelOcr.
one extreme to the other. Did not CO passed from
Honourable
Gentleman know that a great deal of synils-„ethy was
felt throughout the whole of this land—for he e'llght
to know—for his starving brethren ? Ten
had been appropriated, although the Hon. Member
for Tralee seemed inclined to deny that it could be
proved that more than a quarter of a million had
found its way into keland.
Mr. M. O'CONNELL—I said a quarter of the
sum expended.
Lord D. STUART continued—The published re-
turns showed that 7,000,0001. of that sum had been
expended. It was perfectly true, no doubt, that there
!as that kind of feeling throughout the country that
use people were ready to support the Government in
a_ much more severe Bill, but they would do so not
because they hated the Irish, but because they hated
m
urier, they abhorred assassination. They could not

bear, and they would not hear, that a cowardly asses
e:n neeni.,esel - 1 .1-ees st tle,is fellow men
in revenge for a real or supposed injury, and they
were determined to do what they could to put an end
to such a state of' things, not by idle declamation,
not by sermons which were so nicely balanced by
inflammatory sentences in one part, and entreaties
not to commit crime in another—not by such mea-
sures as that, but by real practical measures. He
(Lord I). Stuart) thought it was the imperative
duty of Government to pass this Bill, as it was the
first duty of the Government to afford security to
life and property. If they neglected that, and suf-
fered murder and horrid outrage, and a state of
anarchy, and a reign of terror to continue in Ireland,
such as that which was at present prevailing there,
the guilt would be second only to that which was the
greatest of modern times, the guilt of the Austrian
Government, which not only suffered the tenants to
murder the landlords, but instigated them to it, and
paid them for it with honours and- with gold. He
would not agree to any line of conduct that would
subject a country or a nation to any such imputation,
and feeling that there had been a clear case of neces-
sity made out for this Bill, that it was no stronger
than the occasion required, he felt that he would best
do his duty to his constituents and the country by
giving it his hearty support.
Mr. M. O'CONNELL—The Noble Lord who
had just resumed his seat was regarded by his ad-
mirers as the champion of philanthropy, but it was
to be regretted that Ireland alone, of all the suffer-
ing nations of the earth, should possess no claim upon
his sympathy. The grief of every other country that
suffered under oppression could claim his tears, but
when there was question of the wrongs of Ireland he
was cold as marble His motto was coercion for
Ireland—liberty, safety, and the jealous preservation
of popular rights for every other country under the
sun. The Noble Lord interested himself deeply in
the task of redressing the wrongs of the inhabitants
of a distant land, but for his fellow-subjects who re-
sided in a land within twenty-four hours' journey of
him, he felt not the least compassion. Al-
lusion had often been made to a domestic
description of charity which commenced at
home, and continued at home to the last; but the
Noble Lord's charity was of a totally different quality.
It commenced abroad, and sojourned abroad, and in all
probability would not return home until Sir John
Franklin returned, whenever that might be. What
was most anomalous in the conduct of the Noble
Lord was, that, while he admitted that the miseries
of Ireland were traceable to the misrule and oppression
of former Governments, he was prepared to give his
assent to the coercive policy of the present Ministry,
without making any stipulation with them that they
should introduce remedial measures, and make it their
study to correct the mis,doings of their predecessors
in office. Surely, if the Noble Lord was truly sincere
in his philanthropy, he ought to give his support to
no Government, unless to one which would endea-
vour to heal the wounds inflicted by former Govern-
ments, and to inspire in the minds of the people, by a
conciliatory policy, that love and respect for the
law which the vicious legislation of statesmen in
bygone times had banished from their hearts.
He (Mr. O'Connell) was quite as anxious as the
Noble Lord could possibly be for the carnation of
assassinations in Ireland, but he happened to know
more of that country than the Noble Lord knew
of Poland ; and he was convinced that any at-
tempt to establish good order in Ireland by means
of sutra enactments as the present must ever prove
abortive and futile. He had often asked English
alembers who professed to sympathise with Ireland'
why they did not evince their sympathy by their
votes. One would reply that the feelings of his
constituency went the other way ; a second, that by
eo doing he would destroy his influence with the
Government ; a third, that such a vote would inter-
fere with some great commercial speculation he had
in hand ; and a fourth, that he might perhaps get
something from voting with the, Government, but
that he could not hope to gain anything by voting
against them. And thus it was that Ireland was
disregarded, and her people were left to rnteery and
wretchedness. But let the Ministry take warning.
Coercion Bills broke up and ruined the great Whig
party before now. The Noble Lord opposite told
them that if the transactions which took place in
Ireland had occurred in any county in England they
would have a coercion Bill ; but the Noble Lord
seemed to know very little either of England
or Ireland. He would show him that there
vas more violence, more destruction of
_pro-
perty, equal destruction of life in England,
time after time, and that there had been no at-
tempt at coercion. In the year 1842 most fearful
riots prevailed in the manufacturing and mining dis-
tricts of England; the country was in a state of
actual rebellion, and many lives were lost; yet there
was no coercion Bill, though the ordinary force of
the constitution was inadequate, in many cases, to
cope with the numbers and determination of the
rioters.
Sir B. HALL—Were there any murders?
Mr. M. O'CONNELL would show that. He did
not come unprepared, as the Hon. Baronet might
imagine ; and the Hon. Baronet must recollect that
there was an insurrection in his own district in Wales
during the time of Rebecca. And in reply to the
question—" Were there any murders ?"—he begged
to read to him the following statement :—" On the
29th of July, 1843, at Crossnewd Gate, Captain
Napier and the police arrested four of the
rioters, after a desperate struggle ; Captain
Napier was desperately wounded, and one of
the rioters." He found, in the Examiner of the 12th
August this statement—" On Friday, at New Inn, a
gate was destroyed ; the gatekeeper's wife was shot
at and deprived of her sight." So that in the Hon.
Baronet's own country; during a considerable portion
of the year 1843, the district was in a state of insur-
rection ; all descriptions of violence were committed ;
the people were arrayed against the law, and the dis-
turbance was put down without any coercion, or
attempt at Coercion, but by the mere ordinary course
of the law. He (Mr. M. O'Connell) believed the
Hon. Baronet must confess that Wales was in such a
condition at that titne that it was impossible to get a
constable to execute his duty. It was found in Ire-
land that coroners' juries returned true verdicts, but
what was the vereict of a Welsh jury on a woman
who was shot ? The evidence of the surgeon was,
that he bad extracted shot from the wound, but still
the verdict of the Welsh jury was this :—" The de-
ceased died from the effusion of blood on the chest,
which occasioned suffocation, from what cause is to
the jury unknown." Was he not, he asked, entitled to
require of the Government to confine themselves to
the execution of the ordinary law ? Let them not
give them a different description of law to that ap-
plied to England and Wales, but give them a law
that would put an end to disobedience. While there
was one remedy for England and another for them—
while they had one law for the rich and another for
the poor—so long they would find Ireland still
struggling against their legislation ; and they would
find that, instead of succeeding in their object by a
coercion Bill, their coercion Bills would pass away,
but the recollection of their injustice would remain
—and remain for ever.—(Hear, hear, and cries of
" Divide.") If they were to put the ordinary laws
in force—if they would deal with Ireland as they had
dealt with England and Wales, they would have the
good wishes of every rational man with them. What
the Irish Members asked was to be allowed to sec
what were the remedies about to be proposed, and if
they were feasible they would join the Government
in carrying out their views.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that the Honourable
Gentleman who had just sat down would, he hoped,
excuse him if he declined to follow him over the very
discursive range which he occupied in the address
which lie had just delivered to the House.—(Hear,
hear, and a laugh.) The Hon. Gentleman had gone
into a history of the Rebecca riots in Wales ; into
the merits and demerits of the Board of Works in
Ireland, and he had created a sort of Russo-Polish
Parliament for the benefit of the Noble Lord the
Member for Marylebone (Lord Dudley Stuart). But
after having given the closest attention to his speech,
he (Sir W. Somerville) had detected very little in it.
having reference to the question before the House.
Both the Hon. Gentlemen who had opened the dehate
on the, present occasion, and the Honourable Mem-
ber for Nottingham, had enlarged more than the
occasion required upon the acts of those who had
opposed measures of coercion upon former occa-
sions, but who now introduced measures of a similar
description. He (Sir W. Somerville) did not think
that if the circumstances, both as regarded the occa-
sion on which the present measure was introduced,
the nature of the proposed measure itself, and the
spirit evinced by the Government in introducing it,
were considered, it would be difficult to show that
there was no parallel whatsoever between it and
those previously brought forward.—(llear, hear.)
The present measure had been met by a most cor-
dial spirit of satisfaction on both sides of the House,
and that spirit had been most especially evinced by
the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth ;
and so strongly did he (Sir William Somerville) feel
the imperative necessity for passing the Bill in order
to put a stop to the reign of terror which now pre-
vailed in Ireland, and that those frequent assassina-
tions which were bringing disgrace upon his country-
men—(Hear, hear)—should be prevented, that if he
could hurry the passing of it by one single moment
h woeld do so, and be content to rest under the
of inconsistency.—(Hear, hear.) He sup-
por ford
the Secretary of State for the
clelatregd et.
it as a tneesure that was wanted the occasion.
Hie Right Hon. rein
}lrma epartment had,
by the speech which he had
Dro t
masie to the House, in yrroposingr
going ug
sparedth himh(Shir
W. Sesnerviliej the necessity o
category of crimes eilWeli were now rife in Ireland e
;
alone
alarmednumbertbe him, I
ot crimes
thethat
type
bhueetnitcommitted
that
and nature which those crimes exhibited.—(Hear,
hear.) And let pot Hon. Gentlemen be too raga'

swayed by the number of crimes, as detailed. Let
them take, for instance, some one of those which ex-
cited the greatest horror in tnis country, and consider
its consequences. Let them take, for example, the
inurthAr of Major Mahon. As a murder it stood but
for onci,in number ; hut see the consequences con-
nected with it. Let them look at the terror which it
spread throughout the country ; let them take into
consideration the sympathy evinced by the entire
neighbourhood with the perpetrators of that deed of
blood, and let them look at the picture of the murdered
man's remains having been carried to the grave
surrounded by armed friends to prevent the remains
from being insulted.—(Hear, hear.) Let them look
at and consider those things, and then tell him if they
would that no steps should be taken promptly to put
a stop to such a system.—(Hear, hear.) But, admit-
ting that the crime existed, and that it was of such a
nature as to call for some immediate remedy, the ques-
tion then arose—was the remedy proposed by her
Majesty's Government a fit and proper one for its
suppression? It would, he admitted, be difficult for
any one to pronounce in a positive and authoritative
way, that the Bill would be absolutely sufficient;
but Hon. Gentlemen should not think that because a
measure was very strict and stringent, it would be
therefore more particularly adapted to the exigencies
of the case. His opinion was, that the measure before
the House would, if sufficiently carried out (and see-
ing that the House, as well as her Majesty's Govern-
ment, had every confidence in the Noble Lord the
Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, he having the same con-
fidence also, had no doubt that it would), be sufficient
to stay the hand of the assassin. The Honourable
Gentleman who opened the debate said that he had
been deceived in the nature of the measure to be pro-
posed. He said that it had been stated early in the
debate, that as crime was only partial in Ireland so
should the remedy be partial also, but that this Bill
was a general application. Now, if he (Sir W.
Somerville) understood his Hon. Friend rightly, what
he would expect Government to do would be this—
to define the precise districts in which crime existed,
and then by Act of Parliament to apply a remedy those
districts. But, supposing the Government had men-
tioned certain counties and certain portions of
counties, and certain to wnlands, in which they knew
that crime was still existing, and that they had not
taken any power to go beyond those specific limits,
and supposing that after the enactment had passed
the crime went beyond those boundaries, how could
they follow it ? Would not the House have laughed
at them for such conduct ? This much, however, he
would undertake to say on behalf of the Noble Lord
the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, that wherever crime
was prevalent, and wherever those assassinations tock
place, there, and there alone would that measure be
applied. But when the time for applying it did
arrive, in that Noble Lord's hands the application
would be speedy, and he trusted effectual. The Hon.
Member for Nottingham seemed to hold that no
case had been made out for the application of the Go-
vernment to Parliament for those additional powers.
He had talked of " trumped up cases." Why, he (Sir
NV. Somerville) believed that at all events the mur-
ders that had taken place were notorious.—(Hear.)
Was the murder of Major Mahon a trumped up case ?
—(Hear, hear.) Had the story of the murder of Mr.
Lloyd been trumped up?—(Hear, hear.) Had the
many other assassinations, which he should say with
shame had brought disgrace upon the Irish name,
been trumped tp ?—(Hear, hear.) Was it not noto-
rious that those murders had taken place, and that the
criminals who had committed them were still living
and at large ? The Hon. Gentleman near him said
that he had no confidence in the Government, because

they had appointed Mr. Ryan to the magistracy in Tip-
perary. But the Lord-Lieutenant had appointed that
gentleman, because he had been described as a man
who hal been particularly active in searching out
criminals and putting down crime, and he had been
appointed for the public benefit. As to the complaint
that the Government had not, during the four weeks
that have elapsed since Parliament was assembled,
laid their remedial measures on the table of the House,
let Hon. Gentlemen take Orly one Act and say what
effect it could possibly have in staying the career of
crime. Let them take the Landlord and Tenant Bill,
for example. It would have remained on the table.
It might have been read a first time before Christmas
and no more. But what proof was there that even
the passing of it would stop assassination ? The ruf-
fians who would c.mnmit assassination were, he be-
lieved, neither landlords nor tenants, and the system
was an attempt to establish a reign of terror by over-
riding all law. And what state of law was it when
a tenant would neither pay rent, nor give up his
land, nor cultivate it ?—(Hear, hear.) The measure
before the House had been called a coercion Act.
He denied there was any coercion in it. Its objects
were to prevent assassination ; to give protection to
life and property; and the landlords of Ireland were
not the only persona who would thank Government
for it. The farmers, aye, and the poor cabin holders,
amongst whom the assassins moved, would thank the
Parliament also. He was not one of those who
thought the ordinary character of his countrymen
was to sympathise with assassins. He believed that
the apparent sympathy proceeded in many instances
from that reign of terror which had been established
by the assassins throughout the country, and that if
left to their better judgments they would give every
aid in their power to the discovery and prevention of
crime. He confessed he had heard with much sur-
Opepispoost e speech
in. o
He
did f the Hon.
not
t knowwhatGentleman
had who led
happened
the
to
that Hon. Gentleman, or what it was that could have
coerced him into changing the opinion so quickly
which he had announced on the first evening of the
debate. He regretted that his Hon. Friend's better
judgment had not prevailed, and he appealed to every
Hon. Gentleman present who had heard the opening
speech of his Right Hon. Friend (Sir G. Grey) to
say whether he had not correctly described, in that
speech, every provision that the Bill contained.—
(near.) He (Sir W. Somerville) felt it his duty,
not only on account of the position he held, but as a
friend to Ireland, to support the second reading. And
he believed he could not better nor more correctly
describe the Bill, than by using the words of his Hon.
Friend the Member for Montrose, an opinion, which,
it should be remembered, had not merely been spoken
'n haste, but deliberately written, namely, that " this
11, if firmly administered, will not be inconvenient
11

o anybody but the authors of outrage and crime.
Mr. GRA.CE said he had hoped the Hon. Member
for Tralee (Mr. M. O'Connell) would have spared
him the pains of offering, and have saved the House
the trouble of listening, to some remarks he felt it to
be his duty to mite as Member for a county (Ros-
common) which he regretted deeply to say was at this
moment disgraced by disorder and crime. He rose
in consequence of some allegations that had been made
by that Hon. Member, reflecting on the character of
an individual who had been laid low by the hand of
the assassin—the late lamented Major Mahon.—
(Hear, hear.) That lamented gentleman had residedd
within a few miles of where he (Mr. Grace) live ,
and he had thus an opportunity of knowing that
many of the charges that
had been brought
aiainst the deceased were, to h
is own know-
ledge, utterly groundless. When these charges
had been brought forward by the Honourable Member
for Tralee on the first night of the session, he felt
desirous of clearing the memory of the murdered
man from any stain that they might affix, and of
saving his friends from the pain of having them p
forth uncontradicted, but his better judgment tol(5
him not to rely on his own opinion alone, but to
consult others in the first instance. He did so :
he
went to the fountain source, and from the informa-
tion which he there received he was now doubly
able to declare that those charges were false.—(ilear,
hear.) He mentioned the facts to the Honourable
Member for Tralee on the preceding evening. The
Honourable Gentleman took his statement coolly,
and made no reply. Ile told the Honourable Gen-
tleman that he thought it was fairer for him
to mention the matter to him privately, than
to contradict him publicly in the House, and
the Honourable Gentleman said this evening that he
would give such an explanation as the case re-
quired. He had listened to the speech of the Hon.
Member in expectation of hearing that explanation,
but in vain, and it was only because the Honourable
Member left the House immediately after, that he
(Mr. Grace) did not at once rise to address them.
He did not wish to say anything in the absence of the
Hon. Member, but as the Hon. Gentleman was now
present, listening to what he said, he begged to
tell him that what he (Mr. Grace) now stated was
the fact.— (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MAURICE O'CONNELL—I must claim
the indulgence of the House while I explain how the
matter stands. The Hon. Member for Roscommon is
perfectly right in stating that I said to him I would
state in the House how far my statement on a former
evening was contradicted by him. Unfortunately, in
the heat of debate, others matters occurring to me, it
escaped my memory—(Oh !)--and I have to apologise
to him for not making the explanation sooner. The
Hon. Member will bear me out that the statement
which he made to me amounts to this—that whereas I
stated that two vessels were freighted by the party to
whom I allude with emigrants, and that one of them
returned, as being unseaworthy, he has given me
evidence in contradiction to that statement. I con-
fess that it was an omission on my part not to have
stated that circumstance before, but I beg now to say
that I am perfectly convinced that the statement I
heard as to the return of a vessel laden with emi-
grants, and freighted by the party to whom he
alluded, was not properly founded.—(Hear, hear.)
I made the statement on representations made to me
since I came to London, and I now give the Hon.
Member the full benefit of the contradiction. I have
no evidence to support my
first statement, nor do I
wish to bring up any. I should be exceedingly
sorry to state anything here which I did not belies
to be true, or which, on being corrected by compe-
tent evidence, I should not be ready to retract. I
believe that the statement which I put forward as

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