The Sun.
London, England, 1841-03-24 00:00:00

MORNING EDITION

:he sentences at Quarter Sessions. The moral effect of
this was very bad, and the practical effect was to reverse
the sentence of the Court. He threw these out as strong
objections which struck his mind to this wholesale system
of the commutation of punishment. Another graver ob-
jection was, that the confinement of large bodies of per-
sons in the hulks was inconsistent with their personal
health. There was another point to which he would ad-
vert, namely, the power exercised by the Secretary of
State to retain persons in this country who had been sen-
tenced to transportation, but who were afflicted by some
physical evil. He thought this power, which might be
properly exercised in certain cases, was now used to excess.
He could not concur with those who thought that trans-
portation should be altogether done away with ; but he
objected to the system of assignment, and he believed the
system might be further improved. Tho Hon. Member
concluded by expressing his concurrence in the motion of
his Noble Friend.
Mr. HUME could not but approve of the system of
transportation, which, be thought, had been censured by
the Committee of the House whtch had eat upon the
subject upon individual cases, and not upon general prin-
ciples. He did not think it advisable that commutation of
seetences should be generally adopted, or that the Secre-
tary of State should be invested with wholesale discretion
upon the subject. There could be no doubt of the evils of
letting offenders loose again upon society. It appeared to
him that the whole question of secondary punishment
should be brought under the consideration of the House ;
nod the law on the matter was now in a most anomalous
condition. He found that, on a late occasion, Mr. Jus-
tice Erskine had sentenced a poor man to fifteen aeers'
treaspoca.ion for an assault, under mitigated circum-
stances, upon a policeman, while another Judge bad in-
flicted no punishment whatever upon a Noble Lord and a
Csptain in the army who had cut and beat a police-officer
almost to death.— (" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial
benches.) He thought tha. the House was much indebted
to the Noble Lord who bad introduced the motion, and
he (Mr. Hume) only regretted that the Noble Lord had
not brought forward a measure which would embrace the
whole question.
Mr. LAW thought that the House was much indebted
to the Noble- Lord who had introduced the motion, as the
subject was one of very deep and general importance.
Upon an imperfect statement of fects, it was the highest
injustice to those entrusted with the administration of the
law to come to a hasty decision ; and he knew that the
Learned Judges alluded to e as the last man in the world to
peas an o'er severe sentence. It was extremely prejudi-
cial to the adrri sistration, that where the Judge, after dwe
ccasideration had passed a sentence of traneportad ,n, that
sentence should be commuted by the Seers t any of State.
Wir(rtver an option was all owed to Judges, the sentence
of transportation was reserved for the worst cases. A 9 far
as his own practice ws r,t, he had ascertained the punish-
ment of imprisonment was almost wholly ineffectual. Fro
Tamale cn the very day of his liberation the convict again
committed another offence. Imprisonment was hopeless as
a means of i eforming the criminal ; there!ote the House
would not he surprised that he concurred in opinion with
the Noble Lord. Transportation ho thought much more
effectual, and although chargeable with many defects, it
was capaale of improvement to an almost unlimited ex-
ter t. If transportation did not afferd the means of an
effectual second: puni,hrreat, he was perfectly at a loss
to dcv se any effectual means cf secondary punishment.
He en i-ely concurred in the motion, at the same time
ai claiming any i titer tiun of elating any imputation on the
Noale Lord who had recently been at the head of the
ilemr-efEce, end he should not be doing his duty if he
cited himself to that di-claimer; during tl e whole time he
hod l e communiesti an with that office (a period of
nearly ten years), he was bound to state that more atten-
tion to every representation, greater desire to do justice
temps red wit', mercy, more indefatigable labour in inves-
tigation, he had rever met with. -=( Loud cacers.) He
'owe the greatest rest e t for the Noble Lord, both in his
peal.c and private capac'ty, and if he could entrust that
eiscretion to any one, ho would entrust it to the Nol to
Lord—(Cheery)—but Le'ining, as he did, that the
puniehrreet of implisonment was ineffectual, he should sup-
port the motion.
Me. FOX MAULE would confine himself strictly to
the question before the Howe. It was no secret to the
House er the country that the sal act of tr n'portati m
lad loi.g occupied the public attet f or. A Commit ea
iead teen appointed to consider the system of transporte-
t. n, and is their Report they had unanimously condemned
te system of assignment. The Noble Lord opposite
j .ire I in that condo nn. tion, but he La not stated what
sisten was to Le substituted. That systen being cor-
dernned, it became the duty of i Noble Friend to con-
sider how the views of that Commi tee were to be carried
out. II did not uphold the system of the hulks as a pa--
;act sy stern, but ns necessary until a better one could be
devisee.—Oscar, hear, hear.) The system of assign-
ment Leing given up, there was no employment
fur cows cts, except in public works. Norfolk
!.land and Tamara: Peninsula were assigned as the places
nor tranyertatien, bat these couH not absorb all the con-
sae, an f it became necessary to devise some employment
tar the e c iminals. His Nub'e Fr:eed was not idle in de-
vieng some means for secondary punishment, and he av-
id e I far a grant fur the erection ef an expe, imentel erisoa
With regent to transperte, his Noble Friend de ermin rd t )
adopt the syst nt of the hulks as a substi'ute for seven
years' transporta ion, but he did Lot t ike the House by
ourpris •—he laid on the table a document de a ling fu :y
th system he intended to adopt, and, since 183 a, :lit hulk
3,stern had been te-established. He must say thst he
thought if tee Noble Lord who had opened the debate had
made inquir.e., he would Lave found ilut the thwarter Rnd
discipline c f that syst. in Lad he ,n much improved, and
that %v.-3 not ct a-ge.Ll..; with all the defects he had
enume a-ed. Great attentieu wa paid to the irre r .vement
of the cory cts, an! many who had p.ev'ously lean tac-
tile at d had the:o rete'ved an elementary cdueetion,
which had been of tie utmost advantage t, them. The
:cost d:fficult question r at what was t o become of the con-
vict, aft, r his imprisonmeet had expired.—(ll at, beer.)
It was true he nioht be reformed to a certain extent, but
there could be no doubt there was an i npression against
dim, and he cods. no: be received into society except es a
person en whom there was a stain. But if he were
transpired the same stain followed hi n to the colonic-,
:cr be believed that there the i astant it was elac :tiered a
man had been in prison the same stain Etesched to him.
But s ppose, according to Sir R chard Burke's sugges-
tion, a new colony were founded, that would only get
tit of the evil for a time—the same tl ieg would
re ur there ; and it was only by devising some means of
pr siding for the prisoner after the expiration of his sen-
tence that the evil could be obviated. He could not give
the Howojery hope that this Session, or even the next,
the Geserarament would be prepared to pre,:ent to Parlia-
ment any r. gu'ar system of secondary punishment. Ho
was afraid the Penitentiary of Mineral( would not give any
correct id, aof secondary punishment!. He entirely agreed
with the Hon. Member, who bad said that the term of
punishment should rest with the Judge, and that no in-
terference should take place on the part of the Govern-
ment, unless special grounds existed for such interference.
But with respect to the case which had teen mentioned,
of a co vet who had been liberated after a commutation
of imprisonment, he wished to state that, by instractionli
which had been issued w'thin the last two years, the con-
v'cts underwent two years of certain punishes cot, which was
followed by a certei a number of musters; and if the
la ter we re not satisfactory, the term was not
sterner nea. With regard toSc ques ion of expense he
believed he labour performed had real:zed nearly as much
as the cost of maintenance. The ineividu..l referrei to
in D ire had undergone the prubation, and was re.
ices d at the end of three Sears and s-halt in consequence
cf the s tisfactory manner in which he had conducted him-
self. Ho would net detain the House longer, but he would
express a hope that the Judges wouli soon be enabled to
promisee?. a more definae sentence, and be (Mr. F.
?pale) would be happy to assist in hastening that period.
The HOuse must feel grateful to the Noble Lord for
itbringing forward a subject in which thepublic were so
domeeptilaotun,tecrtebsst. theed He had the satisfaction of statirg to
Noble Lord, the Secretary for the
Colonies, had. in contemplation a Bill which would take
from the Secretary o State the power of commuting the
eenteace of transpertrei-m._( Hear, hear.)
Mr. E STCO tl R.T. esxtleamresoTl his satisfaction at the an-
nouncement that the ay
commutation was under the
considered ‘n of the Government, and that a Bill would be
brought forward for the purpose of remedying the
evil. The commutation always led to a bsiief that layette
trel been shown to the criminal.
acetopunishmentouald nut
better
adopt a resolution which would, being regarded , a
re
con-
demnation of that mitigated system, have the effset of reviv-
ing
the old system of transportation. His Noble Friend
who had introduced this motion bad not attempted to de.
fend the system cf assignment. That system was of a most
appalling nature. It was proved in Committee, by static_
deal fact', that the coloi.i.s exd hibited a degree of crime
and demoralisation of which there was no example. It
was roved before the Committee that the feeling of the
and against the free
settler. w
• as in favour of the criminal,
settler. He hoped the great number of free settlers 14 11lei
bad been sent eat bad altered that most pernicious state of
tthi g'. If assignment was to be given up, and transpor-
ts be continued, the convicts must have boon kept at work
under Government inspectors, so that it was slavery still.
In the colony they could not get officers amongst the free
wen, and the expense was enormous, so that had the
syst•ra of transportation been continued, they must have
been kept to forced labour under persons who were them-
selva comet.. The Committee on Transportation re-
commended that persons after undergoing
their sentence in
this country, should be afforded the means of going to the
colonic!, but
they were very decidedly of opinion that alt
who were convicted crime 0 f •
me should not be allowed to herd
tog, thee, thorehy only making bad
the experiments on secondary worse. He hoped that
punishments would be con-
tinued ; but, it all eventsthe A ustrali would not b
,
hee hoped that transportation to
al lowed to be revived. He
hoped the House would n
Not le Lord. ot concur in the views of the
Lord M A HON replied, and expressed
to divide the House upon niotairoend his determination
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided—

For the motion .............................. 49
Aganit it .......
............. 28
Al.ijoi ity f ir the motion ........... PROPERTY TAX. 21
Mr. SC FIOLE FIELD then rose to bring forward his
lii4 object was
motior, wi.i,li, as it bad been alreidy placed on the order
pare-, must be known to lion. Mi_lrbers,
'That the
to move the followir.g Resolution
relnt
of all property, real and personal,within the Un'it'esrl{n
dote, would be a fit and proper substitute for such of' the
Tales of Excise and Customs as press most heavily on Vic
middle and industrious daises; and that such alteration in
the mode of raising the public revenue would be ealc.ulated,
in a high degree, to enhance the value of all property, par-
ticularlMY leading to the fuller development cf the copious
sou ces of wealth in this kingdom and its vast dedendear i-s.
Tne Hon. Member contended that the prese,t system of
taxation pressed unjustly upon the poor, who paid as
much tax upon an the necessaries of life as the richest
portion of the community. Uc then proceeded to-specify
'owe of the evils which NIA I, th
epooret classes from

this system. One effect of it was to introduce a sort of
civil war between debtor and creditor. The poverty under
whicletbe poor laboured tended greatly to increase crime.
Scarce* a paper could be opened which did not contain an
account orsuicide ; and this was one of the many evil re-
sults of anisnjuat system of taxation. The Hon. Member
then read, variety of documents in support of these views.
The, Hole: Member concluded by reading his motion.
Mr. MUNTZ seconded the motion. The taxes of this
country were principally paid by the humbler classes, and
that was the source of the grievances under which they
laboured. The richer portion of the population did not,
he believed, pay one-third of the burdens of the nation.
It is the rich who make the laws, and it was to that cir-
cumstance be attributed the injustice of the present state
of things. He believed that the motion before the House
would tend to diminish the evils he complained of, and
he should therefore cheerfully support it.
Mr. E. TURNER thought it was a lamentable tl,ing
that when motions of this nature were brought forward the
great Conservative party were not to be found in their places,
(there were six Members on the opposition beeches) and
that there was scarcely a fuller attendance on the benches
on which he sat. It was a proof that the people were not
properly represented, when Members of that house were
so
,inattentive to questions affecting the welfare of the
people.
Mr. WILLIAMS said the great burden of taxation
was thrown upon the lower and middle classes, the tax
upon spirits, malt, and hops, amounted to thirteen millions
and upwards, and was paid exclusively by the middle end
lower classes. The taxes on sugar, tea, and coffee were
levied by weight so that the poor man paid the same tax
for the coarser article that the rich man did for the best.
Almost all duties were levied by weight and measure,
so that the tax on the poor man was from fifty
to a hundred per cent. greater than the tax on the rich man.
There was the same inequality in the stamp duties, the
window-'ax, and in every other object of taxation. The
r:ch were suffered to escape comparatively free, and the
poor and middle class were taxed. Out of forty-three
of taxation only five millions was laid on articles
used by the rich. If they wished to keep their manufac-
tures from being taken from them by mote lightly taxed
countries, they must re.v:se their cyst •m of taxation. A
repeal of the Corn-laws would be a great relief, but that
alone would not be sufficient to enable the working classes
of this country to compete with foreigners. At least one
half the poor man's wages was taken from him
by the tax-a.'her. How could the working classes
c )mpr to in menufacf urea with the United St at2s
and Switzerland while this was the case? He
did not expect that anything which might be sai I
ei.her by hicns4 if or by the Right Hun. Gent eman, the
31ember for Birmingham, would at that time hay.. any
effect upon •Le House; but they would soon be comp( lied by
a pressure from without, to alter the present system. It
via; this system which caused the it cling and discon-
tent which prevailed amongst the poor.
Mr. FIELDEN supported the motion. Nothing
soul I show move forcibly how little confidence could be
placed in that House by the people of this c asntry, than
the thin state of the House at that time.—( Hear, bear.)
he had no doubt it would produce a great effect out
of dents. •

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
the state of the House was in his opinion to be attrioute.l
to a dislike of the subject. He considered, as no doubt
many Hon. Members had donr., that the motion was not
one which, in its present state, coal be entertained by the
11 'use. If the resolution were adopted till whole finances
of the c would, until thi,t resolution came into ope-
ration, be thrown into the utmost confusion and the who'c
trade of the country would be a staid stilt. The Hon.

Member was perfectly at libcrty to propose a resolution,
establishing a property tax ; but if that was his intention
he shaulcr state principally what it was that he
proposed. It was some time since there had been a pro.
perty tax, but when there was one in existence it was
denounced in the strongest language ; and those who
made the strongest objections to it were Persons eagagel
in the pursuits f comme:ce and manufacture. The duties
oa many r.r.ieles had been tot illy rel oiled during the last
ten years, and many others had laceo reduced. They were
not at present in a state t a enable them to hold out hapcs
of a pre-eat reduction ; but as his Hon. Friend had had
an opportunity of snaking his speech, he trusted he would
not press the resolution of which he hal given noti-ee; he
had no objection to a property tax or any othi r tax—he
was the last man in the world to complain of any one sing-
in the praises of t rsation, hut as the reso'ution could not
be carried out practically, he would move the previous
question.
Mr. HUME said his lion. Friend the Member for
Birmingham bai score( 1, done justic r to the sut.ject he
had undertaken, or the lion. Gentleman would nut have
treated it in so glib a manne-. Take the taxation at
fifty millons—it was demonstrable alit the poor paid 74
per cent., and the rich only 26 per cart. Property was
made the basis of repre e.itation, yet tncy votes that pro-
perty should be exempted fram taxation. If the House
carried the resolution they would affir.n the principle that
all should pay equally to thl but-de of the country ac-
e at-ding to their property or i learnt!. At present the less a
man's income was, the greater urJporti an of taxes he
paid. If the House was resolved to revise the system of
taxation they oug'lt to bet r 'pared to lay the burden upon
those who were best able to bear it. His Hon F.ierd
the Me nber for Birmingham had stated that for the last
50 yr a-s there had not teen such distress as now existed
in that t awn. In Leeds, Sheffie:d, and the other la-ge
manufa-Lturiog t ,wris, the position of the workit g classes
was equally deplorable. Under such circumstalces it be-
hovorl tl.e Char/color a the Ezeti yua r t t take rho subject
into his set ions consideration. It was lx-cr,l that
who were willing to work and drive poverty from tl c do, r,
were prevented obtaining emrliyment by the miFehi.y sus
estrictions at pre:_eat in force. It appta e I to him t rat
the Government ought to be earnpellel to take off the rc-

trictions pressing upon the indthiry of the ciun•ry. He
fea ed hey would not interfere urad that House took up t'ne
subject or until the voice of the people compelled them to

st ong and immeliste me,isur.s to r( li2vc the dkress
of the workit g laises. —( Hear, hear.) On eic c ground,,,
and being ia that the preicnt system of taxation was
urOit and unequil, he shoull suppoA motif n of his
lion. Friend.

Mr. GOUL BLAIN confessei that he rcqui•ec] strorgt.r
arguments than those trought forwa-d by the Hun. Mover
of tl e resolution, or those Hon. Members who had suc-
ceeded him, bcfJre l.e could give his assert to it. There
was no man who knew how that system of taxation was
eat r'ei on in that ccuntry who must not be aware t,f the
gr at inconvenience and danger which would result from
unset brig and effecting so total and sweeping a change 1:1
that system. He telievel such a step would, without ef-
reztirg ti e objects which the Hon. Mover had in view,
throw fle financial and eimmercial affdirs of the country
into inextticabl! confasion.—( Hear, hear.) He believed
the Hon. Member had not vary accurately stated the pre-
portion.te amount of taxation paid by the higher and hum-
b!cr classes of sccicty. Taxation could not be measured by
the mere amount paid by each individual to the tax-col-
lector. There were
_numerous branches of indirect

taxaion which the wealthiar classes contributed largely
to, and which the lion. Gentleman had not taken into
his calcu'_ation. He did not conceive it possible Coat the.,
House could consent to such a motion as that und, r con-
sideration—a motion of so unusual aid partial a nature.
Mr. WAKLE Y did not think with tis Hot . Friend
the Member f K,lkcnny, th,.t. the mrti mr, ho,a eve: good
in itself, would convince the lab ,uring classes that the
Members of that House were disposed to inquire inta the
le ml state of their sufferings, and apply to them a proper
remedy. The Right Ht n. Gentleman, the Chancell rof
t'e Exch,‘quer, wishel to lead his Hon. Friend, the intro-
ducer cf the motion, to suppose, that because he had en-
tered into a statement on the subject of taxation, he ought
of er that to withdraw his motion. In that ca che (Mr.
Wa'sley, should say that his Hon. Friend was one of small
expectations.—(A laugh.) It appeared that there was
no intention to change the present condition of timings.
The state of the House showed him the inser.-
slbility by the majority of its Memb rs on questions
of the highest importance. He looked around him for
Noble and testy Lords, but he looked in vain ; he would
not, however, say what might be the nature of the loss if
they never returned again.—(A laugh.) Ho did not see
the leaders of either of the great parties present on the oc.
casion, and he certainly very much doubted whether any-
thing could be expected from such an Assembly.
Colonel SIBTHORP was always surprised to hear

from the Hoe. Member such a speech as that which he
had just delivered. The Hon. Gentleman did not evi-
dently approve of the conduct of Ministers, and jet on
all important occasions, be invariably gave them his sup-
port. He (Colonel Sibthorp) then saw but one member
of the Ministry present (the Chancellor cf the Exchequer)
—a solitary outcast—while his colleagues were enjoying
the luxuries of life elrevvhcce.—(A laugh.) But why did
the Hon. Member for Finsbury support such
.teen ?
H e
hoped
cite
aotmhep proverba i
in yo,
Honourable
onedrhaiebhl e
he
awl Gentlemanet eullldwehpop
apply
youonu
nladrt eh--,,et
:(
:Ley
essut
ngde lane ....
Till
emiae'rt inataheelHolouuesetlays lia:afi'r'equently did out. AGgaoivnerhae
asked, why did he sit there 21(Aherlaugh.
lieastteiorenstbekie notthe blier3tt" l'
With regard
he
;ming
livaoin
tdahielenmieodtitolnia.t the agri-
rdlgall the ciicumstavie.;„ ri:.sthfaeierghshtahree oshfotnalxdatbioenst.
g
on the rthe
ctuouilltt'dueer
advise his friend to
question
hadapl s 1 anxious
e tend e idt Budget.muchil ou l ditteee haddthee-
dis3cihra.rgivie hisAR diztyil.ii
LI p 8
withdraw b.is motion, and to bring for
when they went into Committee
no wish to
full House.
IrLdnosef.it,
He
et
ina
and had always been of olinion that the present
o much on the industry, acrd
sl)
)a,
st
teedn 1
subject,
i aHi°eniltrrey-
too little on
country. In 1834 when Lord At-
tire prow
if the malt-tax w, re repealed a pron• t
thorp said that pr‘estsyedoft.)the
cord by voting 1.,,r the repot
tax
he had pthlanemedelbtistaox.p
would make a fair thoughtad-
tax must be imposed,
the imposition of a property y
the country. tie should vote
justmett of the burdens o
with his Hon. Friend it he went to a division, but he ad.
'wised him to vii,hdraw I is motion.
General JOHNSTON would not advise his lion.
Friend to a ithdraw his re, tien, but to divide by sit means.
.
Mr. SCHOLEFIELD said he was greatly puzzled,
among the multitude of counsellors, to know what to dc.
—( Loud cues of .. Divide, d vide.") Then he most cer-
tainly would divide.
Strangers vvcre then ordere 1 to withdraw, and the
House divide I, when there line reed—
For Vie Rcsolu ion 27
Against it 4O
Majorij against the resolution —l3
Mr. JAS. ScEWA RT morel for lease to bring in a
Bill to facilitate the transfer of real and personal pre-
I petty, held in trust for charitable purposes.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL supported the motion.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
, On the motion of Mr. EAST, leave was given to
bring in a Bill for the prohibition of dog-carts.
Mr. HUME moved for certain returns relating to
Savings' Banks.—Agreed to.
Mr. G. W. HOPE moved that the Howe should, on to-
gmoormroakwe p
, rersowilvanieirflefrinataolaariCesoamnmdiattlieoewoafotcheeswthooleersHoonussteo,
be employed in carrying into effect the provitiopns ef the
Copyhold and Customary Tenures Bill,
to a rootion of such ht!
Sir B. H. INGLIS objected