The Sun.
London, England, 1823-02-21 00:00:00

• . .
Capable of governing the opinion upon this subject,.
the public mind must be deeply impressed with an idea of
the necessity of stmie such change, and that it was the duty
of that House to pass some such measure. But would it
not be better to take experience as zt guide in place of the
imagination_ of the Right lioneekble • Gentleman ? There
was already a precedent to assist thtir judgment in the case
of hie Hon.* Friend the Member for Lenark. Did any one
suppose that because he had got the sure information relative
to the freeholders of Scotland, that that sweeping Reform ex.
pectedby the Right Hon. Gentleman was a bit the nearer ?'—
' (Wear; .hed seen no symptoins 'of the public
alarm foretold in such a juncture of circumstances ; and if
it had not come from a person of the Right Hon. Gentleman's
rank and station, he should say it was a niere chimera. The
question was, whether the mode of seeking this information
was of a Parliamentary nature or not ? and here was a case
in point--ea precedent which, with all hie acuteness, the Right
H. Gentleman had not ventured to allude to. The' motion,
,then, was useful in its nature, and proper hi its feirm. Use-
ful, to enable them to compare the changes which had taken
place in population with the unchanged state of the elective
franchise ; and proper, by the precedent which he had quoted.
And were they to forgo this' merely because the Right Hoe.
Gentleman admitted what be thund it difficult to deny ?
(Hear !)—The fact wee, the Right lion. Gentternan had a fear-
ful eye on the 11th of March, and he felt that this inforniation
if obtained would make a-deep Impression on the minds of many
persons, and assist his Noble 'Friend's motion eventually. And
so far be would agree with hint, inasmuch as there wase a great
'feeling in the minds of vie portion of this conntry as to the
necessity of Reform. But because the imagination,of the Right
flonottrable Gentleman was 'thinned at the approaching Ilth
of March, the House.was not to be deprived-of: what it hail
a just right taexpect. Then as, to the secentletround of olre
ljection to The motion, which, as he said, ewes founded in
exaggeration of his Noble Frientl's'views. The fact was, that
his motion hed nothing at all to do with thr Charters. But
the -Right Honourable Gentleman supposed that his Noble
Friend was to be Assisted by soma . astute persons for,the pur-
pose of picking holes in then ell. It was not so, but merely
to ascertain what constituted the right of voting in the diflbrent
Boroughs ; and that this would lie a most useful, and was a
most necessary inquirk could hot be • denied, when so few offi-
cers really knew distinctly what tiiii constitute that right, which
' they were every day called upon to decide. Lleyond this, it
was the, object of the motion to ascertain the number of free-
men in each place. Ittnight be true, that in a large place like
Liverpool, to which no doubt the mind of the Right Honour-
able Gentleman naturally recurred, it would be difficult to
make' this return; but in all such cases the greatest number
that had ever voted at an election would be deemed a suffi-
cient answer. He thought he had made it out Clear that his
Noble Friend was • entitled to his motion.—(Hear, hear !)_
And why the Right Ilon. Gentlemen should deny thin motion
he could not uatleystand unless it were that he thought it would
make against that question of which lie was the known advo.
cate and champion. For his part he cared little whether it
was earried or not, when regarding it in that point of view ;
because he was satisfied that more good would accrue to the
cause of Reform by the refusal than if it were agreed to. For
what would be the construction of every plain rational mind
upon such couduct ? Would not such a mind naturally ask this
question—" What can induce the House of Commons to refuge
this information ?"—(hear,heat!)—Such, he contended,would
be the effect of it—and what would be the plain rational an-
swer to .that question ? It would be this —" Nothing, but that
they are afraid of the dieelosure."—(llear, hear !)—That was
the light, and the only tight in which the refusal would be re.
petted by the public at-large. And then lie put it the Right.
Illonourable Gentleman, whether he would not hasten the crisis
which it was the object of his opposition to retard or prevent !
Then would he not give that impulse to the public mind which
he dreaded—that mind being already premed, anti viewing
with different feelings, in a different light, and occupying it.
self with a greater earnestness:` now than it had ever be-
fore done, with the daily advancing Cause, of Reform.—
(Hein hear!)
Mr:Secretary PEEL said, that notwithstanding the speech
of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman who had just sat
down, he intended to resist the motion before the House upon
precisely the same grounds as those urged by his Right Hon.
Friend, (Mr. Canning) and he was prepared to contend that
the Honourable and learned Gentleman had not succeeded in
weakening the force of ehose grounds.-..(Hear, from-the Oppo-
sition.)—First of all, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman set out
with the inference that his Right lion. Friend was afraid of the
disclosures that would result from the appointment of the Com-
mittee. How was it possible to draw such an inference when
his first avowal was, that he conceded ell that could be asked
on that score ?—(Hear, hear -o—Could he then be afraid ofdis-
closures, when he himself' admitted their full weight ? The
lion. and Learned Gentleman then said he would begin by
throwing aside all the argument* of his Right Hon. Friend
(Mr. Canning) in favour of the.tiesys of the Noble, Lord, (Lord
J. Russell) considering that the mover must be the best judge
of his own intentions and interests. Why this was as if a mo-
tion made by an Honourable Member in' that House, be-
came that Member's private property,—and ,as it' it was
not competent to the .House to discuss the object and ten-
tendency of every motion—(lleer, hear !)—Admitting this
right, was it not a fair use of net) affirm, that the views of the
Mover would not be aesinted by the motion he had framed, as
the information required by rr
it could not he correctly obtained ?
Was it prudent to expose the defects ee the Representation ?
(hear from the Opposition.)—He (Mr. Peel) argued according
to the vieves.of the Noble Lord, and he said, that if his object
were, to spew the paucity of Alembers upon which representa-
tion rested, then, as regarded his object, he could only draw
from it an illegitimate interference. If his real object were
merely to put a single question to the officers who were to ap-
pear before the Committee, why not put that question withouttheCommittee?--(hear, the-Committee ?—(llear, hear!)—lf so, why follow lipids trio-
tion by a call for persons, paperii, anti records? How could he
offer to limit the power, or check the researches, of the Com-
mittee e Might lie not be permitted to have just alarms
at seeing a Committee fur such purposes invested with on.
limited powers ? He agreed with his Right lion. Friend, that
the same vigilance and jealousy ought to guard this species of
right, as guarded private property, where nothing but lidera.
tion could justify the production of the title deed. But the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman says he has got a precedent ;
and the question was, did that precedent apply ? The number
gh
Of Scotch electors had, he believed, been called for as in the •
Case of Ireland, and the call yeas easily answered, for the free.
holders were registered. But was thin done throe; the me,
thorn of it Committee, and if not; how did the precedent apply
If they departed from the means formerly pursued for the seine
proleieved object, how could they prevent the inference that
sonic other views actuated them,.-..(hear, bear !):.--And if no
other view influenced the Noble Lord, hew ,came it that in
none of' his former motions on the ,subject of Reform had he
noticed the matter, Until the Bon. Member for Appleby (Mr.
Creeevey? gave him the hint ? He thought it was not right
by a motion of this kind to prejudice the discussion on the
question of Reform. Let that
brought in by a aide wind in t lie manner. On• the ground,
l►
ueetion be met fairly, tied not
therefore, that he did not wish to prejudice the great ques-
tion of Parliamentary Reform,- he opposed this motion.
• Lord .1.• RUSSELL wished to knew whether lie wax to under.
stand the Right lion. Secretary, that if he moved for a Itentrn
he would not oppose so, he would give up the present no-
flan fora Committee.
Xt. Seerenny PEEL would be ready to meet any motion
the Noble Lord might thiek proper to make.. But lie could not
allow himself to be drawn in to pledge himself before hand
which course he would take.
Mr. CREEVEY Onving been Alluded to tte the person who
originally suggested the milieu before the House, would briefly
repeat the grounds upon which lie. had sot eested it. lie had
stated to the House thin the population had increased from five
millions to eleven millions within is given period, but that while
the population was so increasing, the monopoly of the elective
franchise remained exactly where it had at first been, and the
number of electors not much increased. With a view, there-
fore, to ascertain and eatlarnie the exact ratio in which the two
had proceeded as regarded each other, he proposed that that
course should be taken which had been adopted by his Noble
Friend. The Right Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr.
Canning) said, he was ready to admit that the Members were
as lie gated they were, and thereupon wieliedeo put a stop to'
the motion. 'This was the first time that such language had
been hold by the Minister of the Crown-to that House. .He
never had in view the calling
of the Charters inquestion, and he
considered the House bud a right to the information., In
former times there an Act prohibiting every man fintn
voting who was not actually a resident in the Borough ;
and at one time there was an attempt made to repeal that
Art in the reign of Queen Elizabeth ; but it failed, the
Bill not getting beyond the Contrnittee. It would be well
to contrast the language of that period with the practice of
the present times. The lion, Member the!) read an extract
from the speech of some Member in a former Parliament,
which recited—" That a Duke of the realm wrote to a certain
Borough, saying, thin there was ecanething to come on shortly
in Parliament, upon which lie was to surninon all his friends;
and that as he coneniered there amongst his friends, he sent
them four llama, begging they would elect two out of them to
return to Parliament. They answered the Duke in all humble.
nese that they were prohibited by law from doing that which
he &sired of them, and many others allswete4 in the same
way, by the lew, sayieg ehat liberty were a kiwi of liberty it'
left to, act as,they pleased in such a matter, without being li-
mited by law." The Speakeealso observed,'` that it were a pity
hut all towns had answered in the Mlle wey, for then they lied
not been sorobbed as they were." The act peohibiting non-resi-
dents from voting had Ousted up to the 14th of the late King,
and it was a pity it had ever been repealed. They should then