The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-01 00:00:00

BILL.

On the motion for the consideration of this Bill with
amendments,
Colonel DUNNE proposed an amendment to the effect
that the 27th of September, 1849, should be substituted
for the 25th of March, 1350, for the termination of the
duties of the vice-guardians, and for the appointment of
others in their place.
After a few observations from Mr. P. Scrope, Mr.
Stafford, and other Hon. Members,
Sir G. GREY said, if it was the general opinion of the
House that the date should be altered the Government
could have no possible objection to substitute the Ist of
November, 1850.
Colonel DUNNE said he for one should be content
with the Ist of November.

Mr. HERBERT alluded to the case of one union, in
which the accounts were in such a state of inextricable
confusion that when the vice •guardians were appointed
they were compelled to advertise for an accountant to
set them right. After some further discussion the
amendment was withdrawn, and the Ist of November
substituted.

On the Bill being put with the amendments, it was
agreed that it should be read a third time to morrow.
OVERSEERS (CITIES AND BOROUGHS) BILL.
This Bill went through Committee, and was ordered to
be read a third time to-morrow.
OUT-DOOR PAUPERS BILL.

On the proposition that the Speaker now leave the
chair,
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that he wished to call
the attention of the House to the defective portions of
this Bill. He was induced to do so from the fact that
200 children had been suddenly swept away at Mr.
Drouet's establishment at Tooting. He did not see why
the poor in large masses should be farmed out at all. He
had always felt that the Poor-law Amendment Act was
deficient in many respects, and he had constantly
opposed it, but he thought it a great mistake in
allowing any other mode of relief than that which
was administered in the workhouses. Now the same
defect existed in this Bill as had existed under the
general poor-law. There was in it no provision what-
ever for a constant supervision of those houses in
which the poor were farmed. He could not see
how a board sitting in London could possibly exercise
the necessary supervision over these different places iu
the country. He would not do more than allude to the
shameful proceedings which bad occurred at Andover;
but he did believe that some provision should be made
for the proper oversight of paupers farmed out. To what
body this right of oversight should be transferred, he
could not say; but probably the magistracy of the king-
dom. He should like to hear the opinion of the Poor-
law Board.

Mr. BAINES said that whatever might be thought
of the wisdom of farming paupers, no doubt whatever
could exist as to the legality of the practice. The sys-
tem was first adopted in 1722, under the 9th Geo. 1.,
and was consequently more than a hundred years
old. That Act was in a great degree modified
in 1767 by the Act called Hanway's Act
from the name of its benevolent framer, James
Hanway. By that Act it was rendered
imperative on the overseers of the poor to send some
persons, or to go themselves, to supervise the treatment of
such paupers as might be farmed out by the different
parishes. That Act remained in force until the year
1844, when it was modified by the 7th and Bth
Victoria, an Act which had been introduced by
the Right Honourable Baronet the Member for Ripon
(Sir James Graham), then Secretary for the Home
Department, by which the compulsory power of super-
vision was to a great extent restrained. Since he (Mr.
Baines) had held the situation which he had now the
honour to fill his attention bad been especially called to
this subject, and he found that the practice of farming
out children was confined almost exclusively to the me-
trepolitan parishes, and even here it was
now likely to be altogether superseded, for
a workhouse on a large scale, anti in a
very salubrious situation, was at the present time being
erected, which from its size would be sufficient for the
accommodation of all the out-paupers of the metropolis.
In the country, as he had said, the system of farming
but very little prevailed, and in London he found that
there were only seven institutions, two at Stepney, and
one at Peckham, the latter of which was, from the in-
stitution he had spoken of, very likely to be dispensed
with at an early day. Besides these there was one at
Norwood, which contained 1,200 children, agree-
ably :and healthily placed, and admirably conducted.
There were two other establishments in Margate where
paupers were received from different workhouses, and of
them no complaint had bee❑ made. There was one at
Welling, in Kent, glad one at Brixton. Without going
into the events that had lately taken place at Tooting,
because that subject was under the consideration of
a criminal tribunal, he thought all would agree
with him that further powers were necessary for
the regulation of these establishments, and what he
proposed by the Bill was, which, he trusted, would have
the effect of removing all the evils complained of—to
give powers to the Poor-law Commissioners to issue
rules and regulations for these establishments; to mould
the contracts entered into between the guardians and
contractors; to lay down certain terms upon
which the children should be received; to
enforce the observance of those regulations by
penalties, and by a power of summarily dismissing
the contractors, which the Poor-1 sw Commissioners
could not do at present. The Bill also gave the
Poor-law Commissioners the power of dismissing the
secretary of these establishments, and also a power to the
clergyman of the parish in which the establish-
ments were situate of visiting the establishments,
and retorting to the Poor-law Board. He trusted that
these powers would accomplish the end that all must
have in view, and that after this measure because
law they should hear no more of the fright.
ful occurrences which had lately taken place. The
Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman concluded by mov-
ing that the House should resolve itself into Committee
on the Bill.

On the question that the Speaker do leave the chair,
Mr. HENLEY thought that though some of the pro-
visions of the Bill might seem somewhat stringent, yet
no man brought himself under the operation of those
provisions except by an act of his own free-will; and
he thought the Government had done all they could
in the Bill, to give pauper children the best possible
provision for their sa.ety and security.
Mr. P. SCROPE thought it was absolutely necessary
for the safety of the lives of pauper children that their
proper care should devolve upon some party, and upon
no one could it devolve more efficiently than upon the
Poor-law Commissioners; but it ought to be remembered
that the greater part of those powers were con-
ferred by the Act of 1844, and it was only
by the improper exercise of those powers that ouch
lamentable results had recently taken place. It was
most unfortunate that former Commissioners had not
examine :1 into the contracts respecting the farming
of pauper children, and had not rescinded those that
were deemed objectionable.
The House then went into Committee. The first six
clauses were agreed to, and on clause 7 being read,
Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY recommended that a periodi-
c,d visitation of these houses should be required.
Mr. BAINES observed that the poor-law inspectors,
as he had before stated, were already armed with full
authority to visit such establishments, and it was now
proposed to give the power of visitation to the magis-
trates, who might exercise it when they chose. He
thought it certainly ought not to be assumed that the
magistrates would not do their duty.
After a few observations from Sir H. Willoughby, Sir
G. Grey, and Mr. Baines,
The clause was then agreed to, as were the remaining
clauses of the Bill, and the report was ordered to be re-
ceived to morrow (this day).
POPULATION, &c. (IRELAND).
On the suggestion of Sir W. SOMERVILLE,
Colonel DUNNE withdrew his motion for a return of
the population, area, valuation, and rates in each town-
land, in each electoral division, in each union in Ireland,
together with the number of paupers receiving relief
from each townland, whether in-door or out; stating
the number of families, and distinguishing the ablebodied
and infirm males, females, and children.

The Buckingham Summer Assizes Bill went through
Committee.

The other orders of the day were then disposed of,
and the House adjourned a few minutes before Six
o'clock.

EASTERN CoUN'iIES RAILWAY.
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)
It was proposed that the common seal of the com•
pany should be affixed t• the register of proprietors;
but it was opposed by a number of shareholders, on the
ground that the register contained an account of cer-
tain preferential Norfolk shares which ought to be there.
The CHAIRMAN, however, assured the meeting that it
contained no such thing, and the seal upon this assur-
ance was allowed to be fixed to the register.
Mr. HONEY, the secretary, then read the following
report:--

1‘ The directors beg to announce that the total capital
up to the 4th of January last, entitled to interest and
dividends, including the bonus of 1,087,0001., amounts to
12,556,8201., including the capitals of the Northern and
Eastern and of the Norfolk Railway Companies; of
which amount 12,056,820/. will receive dividend or in-
terest out of the revenue, and 500,000/. will receive in-
terest from capital, being such portion of the above ca-
pital as may be fairly deemed unproductive—viz.. half
the capital of the Maldon and Braintree line, not opened
until October, and the capital expended on the Enfield
line, together 150,000/.; and Norfolk works, consisting
of the Dereham and Fakenham branch and the Lowestoft
Harbour-350,0001.

" The usual preliminary notices for the opening of the
Enfield and Edmonton and of the Dereham and Faken-
ham branches have been given to the commissioners of
railways, and the directors anticipate that both will be
ready for traffic at an early period.
The receipts of the company, including
those of the Norfolk Railway, during
the half-year are £397,592 3 0
The working expenses,
including government
duty and taxes £164,278 4 3
Half-year's interest on
guaranteed stock and
debentures charged to
revenue amounts to 129,626 5 9
293,904 10 0

Balance • £103,687 13 0
Which balance, With 3,5891, 9s, ,sd. balance from last
half year, ampulla to 107,2771. 2s. sd. applicable for
dividend and depreciation.
"It will be in the rtcullection of tin 3harehulthrs
that, in the financial statement issued to them in No-
vember last, the necessity of creating a depreciation
fund to meet tie outlay for ,the replacement of the Pe*

rishable portions of the permanent way and working
stock was referred to. In accordance with that view
the directors recommend that the dividend on the con-
solidated stock of this and of the Norfolk Railway Com-
panies shall be ss. 6L per share, which, upon 336,762
shares, the number now entitled to dividends in both
companies, will amount to 92,6091. 11s., leaving for the
reserve or depreciation fund— which the directors
strongly recommend the shareholders to sanction—the
sum of 14,6671. Ils. sd.
" The directors continue to give their earnest atten-
tion to the subject of the working expenses, and they
have made during the past half-year, such reductions
as have appeared practicable, without impairing the
efficiency of the establishment, or unnecessarily cur-
tailing the accommodation of the public.
" The subject of the unjue t and oppressive local taxa-
tion to which railways are exposed, has occupied the at-
tention of the directors of this company, in common with
the directors of other companies, and they now recom-
mend that the petitions to both Houses of Parlia-
liament, which will be submitted to the meeting, receive
the sanction of the shareholders, and that they give
their authority to the company's seal being affixed to
the said petitions.
" The advantages which would result to this railway
from a communication by steam from Harwich to the
ports of the Continent have frequently occupied the at-
tention of the meeting of the shareholders, and the
directors are happy to announce that the Government
has determined to run the mail packets to Hamburgh
and Rotterdam from Harwich.
"An independent company has been established to
perform the service of conveying the mails, and has ob-
tained the Government contract. That company will be
in friendly alliance with the railway company, and does
not seek any guaranteed dividend from the latter. The
utmost aid at any time required by the steam-boat
company will be a small loan, only to be granted by the
railway company upon approved and sufficient security.
Every exertion will be made by this company, the
Eastern Union Company, and the steam-boat company,
to draw the passenger and the light goods trade between
London and the North of Europe through Harwich ;
and when the Harwich branch has been completed, the
traffic in heavy goods will follow. The prospects of a
gradual and ultimately large increase of revenue to the
railway from this new source are favourable.
" The following directors retire at this meeting:—Mr.
Anderson and Mr. Crosbie. These gentlemen are eligible
for re-election, and offer themselves accordingly."
The CHAsnetiar, in moving its adoption, said he hoped
he was addressing a meeting of commercial men, who
would listen patiently to every individual who might
be in possession of the chair.—(Hear, hear.) If
they would give him a patient hearing he
would detail to them, in as explicit a manner as
possible, the real position of the company. The traffic
during the past half-year had fallen off very
materially, but this was attributable to various causes.
It was not to be forgotten that there had
.been a potato
rot in the eastern counties, which had seriously affected
their traffic; but, in addition to that cause, the share-
holders must remember that during the
.past half-year
they had 69 miles of new line to make, which had added
1,3251. to the revenue account for salaries which had
It
previously been debited to capital.—
(Hear,hear.)
had been complained that the Norfolk line had increased
their expenditure; but that was a great mistake, for,
comparing the four weeks last past with the cor-
responding period last year, it would be seen that
the working expenses had been reduced by 370/.
per week in consequence of the continuous working of
the line, without at all impeding the efficiency of the
line.—(Hear, hear.) Now, with regard to the dividend,
that was a matter which the directors were anxious to
leave in the hands of the shareholders, but this they did
say, that the present position of the concern would not
If the truth must
admit of their safely payingmore.
be told, the rock they had split upon was in paying a
dividend of 9s. per share a few half-years ago, while in
the previous half-year they had only paid 3s. per share,
The proper reserve was made then for depreciation,
and the new lines which were then, not opened, but were
rapidly approaching completion. The working expenses
were kept down as low as possible, compatible with the
efficiency of the railway. They did not amount to more
than 991. per mile; and, taking into consideration the
nature of their traffic, and the heavy character of their
engines, he felt that sum would bear comparison with
any other line in the kingdom. Allusion was made in
the report to the 61. per cent. guaranteed stock, but he
was happy to tell the meeting that the directors did net
intend issuing the remainder of that stock for the present.
A SHAREHOLDER—How many are there left?
Mr. RONEY, the secretary, replied that there were
3,400 shares left.
The CHAIRMAN said he was anxious to take that oppor •
tunity of stating that hitherto they had been proceeding
upon an erroneous principle, but he declared confidently
that the statement of their affairs issued to-day was
faithful and accurate. He hoped, therefore, the share-
holders would look impartially into that statement, and,
having carefully considered it, he was quite sure they
would be convinced that the policy the directors were
pursuing was the best that could be devised for
retarding the downward career of their property.
In reference to the Norfolk question, he knew that there
was a good deal of diversity of opinion upon that sub.
ject, but he thought if they would estimate this question
b y figures, it would turn out that much error prevailed
in this matter. The earnings of the Norfolk line during
the past half-year amounted to 60,8201., which gave a
dividend on the Norfolk capital of ss. Bid. per share,
after paying working expenses, including a mileage pro-
portion for direction and management, which, it must be
borne in mind, had not increased in consequence of
their taking the Norfolk line. Had the Norfolk line
not been debited with those charges the earnings would
have given 6s. Id. per share. The traffic which the
Norfolk line had brought on their own gave a sum of
56,781/. Now, the way to look at this question was
this:—They ought to ascertain how far the Norfolk line
could pay, at present or ultimately, the same dividend as
themselves. Their own dividend amounted to ss. 6d.;
their own officers had proved to them that the Norfolk
line yielded ss. Bd., and when they looked at the conse-
quences which might result from the Norfolk line, he
felt that there was no cause for hesitation in taking up
that railway.—(Hear.) He now came to the steam-boats.
They t roposed to advance to the Steam-boat Company
420,0001., and looking at thei ergo trade these boats and
the Harwich line were likely to bring upon their line, he
was convinced that it would be a suicidal policy to reject
this scheme.—(Hear, hear.) He had now gone through
the topics of the report, and after moving the adoption
of the report, it only remained for him to state that the
following telegraphic communication had been received
from Mr. Hudson :—" I had not an opportunity of reply-
ing yesterday, but will write to-morrow. Mr. Wadding-
ton may use his discretion as to the reason of my resig-
nation. He is aware it was a matter I had long contem-
plated."
A PROPRIETOR asked the following questions i—lst.
Does the Eastern Counties Company rent the line of
railway from Readham to Lovrestoffe, a distance of 111
miles; which I am informed does not pay its working
expenses; and, if so, must we continue running trains
on it? 2d. Have they leased the Lowestoffe Harbour
with the Norfolk line, as I have ascertained it will cost
100,0001. to finish, besides keeping it in repair, and
what is the revenue you expect to receive from the
said harbour ; will it ever pay anything ? 3d.
What authority have the Eastern Counties' directors
to amalgamate with the Norfolk line? 4th. Was Mr.
Pete about to be appointed deputy-chairman? and sth.
What number of shares does our chairman (Mr. Hud-
son) hold?
The CHAIRMAN had already answered the first cries-
tion. The line mentioned was included in the receipts
of the Norfolk Company To the second question he
stated, that the railway and station would not cost more
than 1,300,000 L To the third, a special meeting of the
proprietors had given them the authority.
Mr. RONEY stated, in answer to the last question, that
Mr. Hudson held 625 shares.
A PROPRIETOR—How many of them were given to
him ?
Mr. RoNEY—Not a single share.
Mr. Box said the directors were as much to
blame as Mr. Hudson for the deplorable state
of their line. They sat by while he indulged
in statements that never could be realised, if
indeed, there was any truth in them, without checking
them in the least, and he should therefore move the fol-
lowing resolutions :--Ist. " That a committee of share-
holders be now appointed to make strict and searching
inquiry into the financial condition of
the Eastern
Counties Railway Company, and for taking into their
consideration the cost of construction per mile, executed
and to be executed, and the cost of the
several stations; showing what has been for
the last three years, ending
.January 4th, 1849,
the amount of income per week arising from the traffic
of this company, and any other under its management,
from first, second, and third-class carriages, express,
Parliamentary, or other carriages separately, and from
every other source, arranged under separate heads,
stating what has been the working
. expenses per
mile per week ; also the number of officers engaged,
with the amount of salaries paid to each annually ; also
the amount of law expenses incurred; also stating the
various officers that have power to grant free passes to
their friends, ace., the num i
ber ssued weekly for first,
second, and third-class carriages: 2d. That the said
committee be empowered to examine all books, papers,
documents, and vouchers belonging to the company, and
all persons in the employ of the company that they
may deem necessary, and that they do make
a full, clear, and detailed report hereof to a special
meeting to be convened for the purpose at as early a
period as possible."
During the reading of these resolutions another scene
of confusion took place, the meeting appearing to be
unanimous in demanding that the directors should be
one and all turned out.
Mr. PRICE Was ready to second these resolutions
because it would enable him to express his gratification
that Mr. Hudson bad not had the brass to show his face
to-day.—(Laughter.) He bad shows his good sense in
absconding from the meeting, and it would have the
beneficial effect of convincing the world that Mr. Hud-
son had humbugged them from beginning to end.
M. r. Sergeant GAZELEE rejoiced that the day of retri-
bution had come at last. Often had he been bullied by
Mr. Hudson, but it was his turn now, and he would not
spare the Hon. Gentleman or his myrmidons in the
direction.—(Cheers )
A PROPRIETOR—.That's it, Sergeant; kick him well
while he's down.
Mr. Sergeant GAZELEE would not have the meeting
treat the directors with disrespect, but they had been
tried and found wanting, and now his advice to the
shareholders was to do nothing that the directors
asked them, but at once appoint a committee of inquiry.
—(Cheers.) Stop the solicitors bills, let the directors
simply mavege the line for a whit'', and in the meantime
let there be a seaNhing and sifting inve-Aigation of their
affairs,—(Cheers.)
Mr. D. PRICE denounced the. Norfolk Company as a
bankrupt concern, and pronounced the attempt to amal-

gamate it with the Eastern Counties to be scandalous
fraud.—(Cheers.)
Mr, HELPS suggested that a committee, abould be ap-
pointed without limiting its functions.
Mr. CASH asked if the directors had any .objection to
the appointment of a committee.

The CHAIRMAN wished to answer the charges which
had been made against the directors before he replied to
Mr. Cash's question, which again led to another scene
of confusion, and again brought into fictive play the
lungs of the dissatisfied shareholders, who were clamo-
rous for the ejection of the directors. The yells and shouts
were beyond description, but above the storm of voices the
cries most distinctly heard were "Turn 'e tu out," " Send
'em after Hudson," "Down wish them," " Pitch 'ern over."
The CHAIRMAN said, if the meeting per sisted in its
present course he would quit the chair, and leave it for the
world to decide who had acted with propriety;, the chair-
man or the meeting.—(Cries of "Do it, do it.") Now, in
answer to the question of Mr. Cash, he be gged to state
that the directors had no objection to the 'committee.—
(Tremendous cheers, and cries of "Why didn't you say
so before?") When he:consented to take the chair he
anticipated that there would be an up-heaving of the
billows; but he did not think the storm would have been
difficult to quell.—(" Oh, oh," and reitorated cries of
" Turn 'em out.") However, the directors had no
objection to the committee, and they freely placed them-
selves upon that point in the hands of the meeting.
After some further discussion the amendment was
withdrawn, and the following one substituted for it:—
" That a committee of investigation be appointed to in-
quire into all the affairs and accounts of the company,
and report their opinion thereon to an adjourned meet-
ing, and that they be at liberty to send for books, pa-
pers, and accounts, and examine any parties they think
fit, and to employ such accountants as they may re-
quire."
Mr FISHER proposed that they should adopt the re-
port, so far as the dividend was concerned.—(No, no.)
Mr. Calm suggested that the committee should have
power to employ a solicitor.—(Cries of " No, no ; we
have had enough of lawyers, we'll have none of 'em.")
A PROPRIETOR asked if the sittings of the committee
would be opened to the shareholders.—(No, no.)
Another PROPRIETOR—Who pays the expenses of
the accountant?
The CHAIRMAN said he supposed the company would
have to pay the expenses.
The resolution was then put and carried, only four
hands being held up against it.
The CHAIRMAN declared the amendment to be carried
amidst tremendous cheering.
After another scene and much confusion, it was
agreed that the committee should consist of nine, and
five should form a quorum.
The CHAIRMAN then suggested that Mr. Cash and
his friends should retire and consider who should con-
stitute the committee.

Mr. CASH—I can't get out.
The CHAIRMAN—I'm sorry you got in.—(Laughter.)
Mr. CASH proposed that the qualification of a corn
mitteeman should be 50 shares.

Mr. Box saw no reason why the qualification
should be greater than that of a director, and
he should therefore more as an amendment that the
qualification should be 20 shares.

The amendment was, however, negatived by a large
majority, and the orginal motion was declared to be car-
ried amidst renewed cheers.

Amidst another scene of uproar the meeting then pro-
ceeded to the election of members of the committee.
Messrs. Christie, Cash, Sherwood, Ellis, and Mayhew
were then elected, with power to nominate the other
four members of the Committee.

A resolution was then proposed for the abandonment
of the Norfolk Amalgamation Bill, but the Chairman
refused to put it, and of course another and still more
noisy scene ensued.
The CHAIRMAN moved that the matter be left to the
committee.

This motion was ultimately agreed to, and petitions
to Parliament against the present system of railway
rating.
Thanks were then voted to the Chairman, for his able
and impartial conduct in the chair, and the meeting broke
up at six o'clock.