The Sun.
London, England, 1841-04-30 00:00:00

(Renewed laughter and cries of I " Divide.") He thought
the Noble Lord ought not to be, twitted any more on that
around._-( Laughter.) He we I s told that the Noble Lord
was to be in a minority to night- t. but of what consequence
was that.—(Cheers and lau g hter.) He dared to se),
the gentlemen were all cock-r t. hoop.—(Laughter.) The
Hon. Member's conclusion w: us not heard amidst the cries
of " Divide, divide."
Mr. O'CONNELL bereged the indulgence of the
House for five sentences onl,y. The Hon. Member for
Halifax had said that irritati on in Ireland was a great evil,
and that it would be increased by angry discussion in that
House. Now be (Mr. O"Connell) thought it would be
worse if the people of Ireland believed they had no party in
the House—( Cheers)—or that tilde interests were
1-frittered away by men who felt their own inportance
to do good, and stood nut on crotchety notions
of their own.—(Cheers.) It was quite clear, and ad-
mitted on all hands, that this clause would be negatived,
but it would do Ministers much good in Ireland. They
had made an attempt to enlarge the constituency of Ire-
land. The tranquillity of that country had been preserved
by their administrative impartiality—(Cheers)—by their
keeping partizans from power, and partial bigots from the
indulgence of their spleen.—( Much cheering.) The
Noble Lord opposite was said to have some talent in serving
his friends ; he had shown much more in serving his ene-
mies.— ( Much cheering.) He had heard with pleasure the
Noble Lord's statement of the increase which this clause
would make in the constituency. He hoped the Ministers
would take a hint from the Noble Lord, and surely the
people of Ireland would see that the Bill was much better
than they thought it, although the statement of the Noble
Lord was much exaggerated.—(Cheers.) He sat down
thanking the House for the attention with which he had
been heard.
After a few words from Mr. H. GRATTAN and Mr.
FIRL DEN, amidst great interruption,
Strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided, when the numbers were—
For the clause 289
Against the clause I 300
Majority against the clause ....... —ll
Lord J. RUSSELL then addressed the House as fol-
lows :—Sir, I think the House cannot be at a loss to im-
agine the course which we mean to pursue after the vote
which has just been come to by the House. We have al-
ways stated that the clause which has now been rejected
by the House is the principal clause of the Bill, and the
foundation on which the superstructure of the Bill rested.
But, Sir, before I put any motion in your hands I may,
perhaps, be permitted by the Committee to make
a very few observations on the course that has been
pursued, and the grounds that have been taken for the re-
jection of this clause. And let me say, in the fist place,
that I should not be at all surprised—that I shall feel no
cause of complaint that this clause, containing a different
test of the franchise from that which has been established
by the settlement of 1829, on the subject of the privileges
of the Roman Catholics, and by the settlement of 1832,
with regard to parliamentary representation—that on the
first proposal of such an alteration the House should be
unwilling to give to it their sanction ; but what does seem
to me to offer some ground of complaint is that
which I have stated just previously to the division,
that I do not think the grounds on which the clause has
been rejected by the Right Hon. Gentleman, by the
Noble Lord and the party which sits opposite, have been
intelligible, either to the Government or the House. I
can understand saying---" We shall stand on the principle
of the beneficial interest—we shall stand on the interpreta-
tion of the Acts of 1829 and 1832, and we will admit no
deviation from them." I can also understand those who
say---" We do not approve of the leasehold tenure which
is contained in your clause, and we prefer an occupation
franchise in any change that is to be made." But so far
as I could understand Hon. Gentlemen opposite they at-
tempted ,to do that which is inconsistent and incompatible--
that is to say, they took both of these lines—they say they
will not depart from the principles of the Acts now
in force, and that they require a profit in the
land, and a beneficial interest, while in the same breath,
and in the same voice, they have said that they are ready
to admit, if a change is to be made, a franchise which
would have no beneficial interest, no profit, and which did
not contain the principles of the present Act. So far,
therefore, and so far only is it that I have reason to be
surprised, not at the decision which has been come to, but
at the grounds which had been stated for that decision.
Sir, in speaking further of those who oppose the Bid on
those grounds, let me say in addition, that if you are not
now prepared in any degree to modify the franchise, if you
think that the mode in which the Government has pro-
posed to modify the franchise is objectionable, and if you
think that there is no other convenient mode which has yet
been proposed in the House, or that the state of circumstances
in Ireland does not at present justify any new arrange-
ment of that franchise, that if such be your principle,
that on the other hand you arc heind to stand by those
principles of the Act of 1829 which are favourable to the
people of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) By that Act, intro-
duced at a time of great ferment, of great popular dis-
turbance in Ireland—at a time when, as it has been al-
ready stated, the troops of his Majesty were employed
in suppressing disaffection in that country—you did in
distinct terms give a franchise of a very high amount,
which has since been proved to have been of a very un-
certain and indefinite nature ; but at the same time it
was proclaimed in the first place that there should be
an easy admission to that franchise ; and in the second
place, that if the right of voting was once admitted, the
voter should remain on the register, and that if the right
were rejected, and only when it was rejected, he should
have the power of appealing on questions of tact to a Jury,
and on questions of law to the Judges. You provided
also that if on the first trial his right were rejected. and if
on appeal it were admitted, ho should remain on the list.
What I now wish to say is, that the House, having rejected
a change and innovation which we thought justified by the
occasion, was perhaps more impressed with the danger of
innovation than with a desire to adhere to the principle of
fot mer Acts. These former Acts were established in fa-
vour of the people of Ireland at a very important period--
at a period when everything was in jeopardy and danger;
and we did not think we deviated from the principle of
strengthening Irish constituencies.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
There were others who took a very different line—_
there was my Noble Friend the Member for Northum-
berland, and my Honourable Friend the Member for
Halifax, who complained of the nature of our franchise,
who complained of the mode in which our clause was
framed ; and my Noble Friend the Member for North-
umberland in the last speech which he made, attached
very considerable blame to the Government, because as it
appeared to him they had not sufficierely conceded—they
had not shown a disposition sufficiently conciliatory, and he
stated it was his opinion that if a conciliatory disposition
had been shown, some arrangement might have been come
to by which parties might have settled this question and
tranquillized the minds of the people of Ireland. Others,
however, and amongst them the Hon. Member for Kul.
kenny and the Hon. Member for Finsbury, appeared to
consider last night that the course of the Government had
been exceedingly vacillating ; that they had not adhered
to what they originally proposed, and that they would have
shown mere firmness and consistency in abiding by their
original proposal. Now when I hear statements of this
kind I cannot help being reminded of that scene
in the comedy of the " Rivals," where Falkland,
somewhat jealous of the disposition of his mistress, with
whom he had quarrelled, and seeing her about to go away,
said, " Was there ever anything so vacillating, so incon-
sistent ?" But on seeing that she was coming back again,
he instantly said, " Was there ever anything so proud, so
obstinate ?"—(" Hear, hear," and laughter.) Such is, and
must be, I am afraid, the situation of this or any other
Government ; some of tbe:r friends thinking that they
ought to have done more to conciliate their opponents, and
others again complaining if they make the slightest de-
parture from what they had originally proposed, Of course
I shall not refer again to the argument with respect to
the franchise. I will say, however, with respect to that
point upon which my Noble Friend the Member for
Northumberland differed most from the Government,
namely, the question of lease, that we consulted those who
are connected with the Executive Government in Ireland,
includir,g my Noble Friend the Lord Lieutenant of Ire-
land, my Noble Friend the Chief Secretary for Ireland,
and my Hon. and Learned Friend the Attorney-General
for Ireland upon that subject, and they were all of
opinion that the introduction of the lease was necessary.
I appeal to my Noble Friend the Member for Northum-
berland, whether Government would have been justified,
with that recorded opinion, in placing the franchise upon
occupation ?—( Hear, hear.) Now, I will only further
refer to what fell from the Hon. and Learned Gentleman,
the Member for the City of Dublin. I have often had
occasion, unfortunately, to differ from that Hse. Gentle-
men in the statements which be has made with regard to
Ireland, and with regard to the dispositions of the people
of England towards Ireland, and I have not concealed
that difference from this House. But I was glad to hear
that Hon. and Learned Gentleman state to-day, that it
would be a great consolation to the people of Ireland, if
they would consider that there was a large party in this
House that was
atroe o
attachedhelathtoatthe interests, and anxious to
promote
w tahsegwl f Ireland.—(stat
e Hear,mentf
hear,rom
theandi i
cohne.e cheers,.
d)
Learned Gentleman. For myumoewronusp._art(,
Hle rire.a)lly
Bbnet:
lieve that that body i Very n
Sir, that is no new thing in the history of this country,
because the part which my Noble Friend the Member for
abandon
to ce,
the
Northumberland has taken with regard to this Bill, cannot
but remind me that, when the Noble Lord to whom ho
is so nearly related was at the head of the party to which
because
e belong,esn se th a theyt
had were
proposed contentan in
additionali.e e to
p rivie
Roman Catholics, and afterwards voted for catholic offi
Erna
mpation when proposed by their political 01,,,
I had but little part in those transactie • ..,tents.
am glad to refer to that proof of a
term" ibount I
promote the interest of Ireland, T
t ..e Hon. and Learnedto
vGoeunretldemtnanprosttaeetetdthtehatirist,he
raolverna
them those privileges e Peee
• d I
prive .unjustly
et which they havemndebreittoe e confer
ndferenudpe:ll-
- y to hear that acknowledgment. I
de-
have nothires further to address to the Butte. I
trust ':eat 'at some future time all parties will be
disposed to Tree upon some measure which shall
fix the franchise of Ireland, and at the same time improve
the registration. I consider that any further discus-
sign upon the clauses of this Bill would be utterly fruitless
and would rather tend to prevent than to promote an ulti
mate agreement. In any determination which may be
made, the people of Ireland will have no right to say
that their interests have been neglected, or their just
requests refused ; and on the other band, that
whatofthatis doneconstitn7ioil be
Constitution,
withetohnesiesotennttinnwaintehe theand maintenancepermanenee
of those institutions to which this Government and the
great majority of this House are, as I believe, firmly
sdtoa repo t p
was r o
attached. The Noble Lord then moved that the Chairman
Sir ROBERT PEEL said he thought he should only
b conformity'ra
e gave
from e his
aw pt opinion
prolonged
prevailingeognedthadiscussion
there feeling
dy
t e what r
boef nthoepHuboluisc re, g
when egri
advantage
the motion which had been made that evening, and he
would have abstained altogether from any observations on
the subject, if the Noble Lord had not commenced by
preferring a complaint against himself and his Noble
Friend, The Noble Lord had complained that they bad