The Sun.
London, England, 1841-08-28 00:00:00

MPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

(THIS DAY.)
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
The SPEAKER took the Chair to-day at Twelve o'Clock.
Mr. STEWART WORTLEY brought up the Report en the
Address, which having been read,
Mr. T. S. DUNCOMBE said he wished to know from the Right
Hon. Baronet opposite whether it was intended to be admitted that
distress existed in the country. There had certainly been speeches
made by Hon. Gentleman in their private capacity, in which the
distress was admitted. In the original address it was stated that
they deeply sympathized with her Majesty in the distresses of the
people and recognized in her expressions an additional
proof of her Majesty's tender regard for the welfare of
her subjects. Now this was omitted in the Amendment. lie
wished to know whether the omission was intentional? It ap.
peered to him that the paragraph in the Amendment was not worded
so respectfully to the Crown, nor so as to convey to the people
that the House did really sympathize with their distresses. If the
distress e ere admitted, he thought they should take the paragraph
in the original Address proposed by her Majesty's Ministers. He
hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would have no objection to do
that—stating that that House joined with her Majesty in her ex-
pression of (Seep regret for the distresses of the people. If not, lie
(Mr. D.) would move the original paragraph be inserted.
Sir It. PEEL said he would state, as an individual Member
of the House, in which capacity alone he acted, what was the
position in which the case stood ? In the first place he would
say that there was no deliberate intention of evading the words
of the Address. Of course the terms of the Address, as moved
by her Majesty's Government, were not known at the time the
Amendment was put, therefore there could have been so inten-
tion to depart from it. With regard to the respect which was
paid to her Majesty, he must say that, while the original Address
was quite respectful, he could not admit that the amendment
fell short of respect, because the Address stated that the House
shared with her Majesty in her expression of sympathy, and the
amendment stated that in these expressions the House recognized
an additional proof of her Majesty's tender regard for her subjects.—
( Hear.) Then egainevith respect to the admission that distress existed,
in the amendment to him it appeared to be admitted in the fullest
manner—it was stated in her Majesty's Speech, and it was, as a
matter of course, assumed in the amendment. He for one ad.
mitted that there were classes in this country suffering great dis-
tress and privation, for which he was very sorry ; but it appeared to
him, first, that the amendment fully admitted that distress; and,
secondly, that the amendment was even more respectful to the
Crown than the Address. He trusted that he had satisfied the
scruples of the Hon. Member.
Mr. T. S. DUNCOMBE understanding that the distress existing
in the country was fully admitted, and that the words of the amend-
ment did not seek to evade it, and that it was intended to be per-
fectly respectful to the Crown, would withdraw his opposition.
The remaining paragraph was then agreed to.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD then rose to move, as an addition to the
Address, " That we further respectfully represent to your Ma.
jesty, that, in our opinion, the distress which your Majesty deplores
is mainly attributable to the circumstance of your whole people
not being fully and fairly represented in this House; and that we
feel it will be our duty to consider the means of so extending and
regulating the suffrage, and of adopting such improvements in the
system of voting, as will confer on the working classes that just
weight in the Representative body which is necessary to secure a
due consideration of their interests, and which their present patient
endurance of suffering gives them the strongest title to claim."
He would have been much pleased had that most important subject
been taken up by some person of greater ability and higher stand.
ing. But he stood in a peculiar position with respect to the consti-
tuency of Rochdale. He was selected by the constituency in a most
singular manner, without solicitation, and entirely in consequence
of the principles of public policy which lie entertained, and he
trusted the House would not think it wrong in him to take every
opportunity that presented itself for promoting those principles.
He stood there as an independent Member, attached to no party
but that of the people. He saw with deep regret that her Majes-
ty's Speech did not allude in any way to those amendments of our
elective system, which were absolutely necessary for improving the
condition of the people; and he thought it was the duty of an incle.
pendant man not to allow the Address to pass without attempting
at least to get an expression of the feeling of the House in favour
of those measures. He would ask, whether it could be said
that there was a fair representation of the people either of Eng.
land, Ireland, and Scotland under the present law ? By returns
which had been laid upon the table of the House, it appeared
that the franchise in England was enjoyed by one out of 18i of the
male population, or one in four of the heads of families, in Scot-
land one in 30, and in Ireland one in 60. Was that a fair repre-
sentation of the people ? Such a system led to class legislation
and gross monopolies, of which the Corn-law, so much com-
plained of, was now the most oppressive instance. If the people
had been represented in that House, such a monopoly, so grinding to
the poor, never could have been put upon the statute book; and let
the people now be represented, and the question would not be
whether there should be a low fixed duty or a sliding.scale, but
whether it was just that such a monopoly should exist at all. If
there had not been unfair representation in that House, how was
it possible that the people of England could be reduced to such a state
of misery and privation as that under which they were now suffering ?
With respect to the suffrage his opinions might go much further than
many Hon. Gentlemen present. But hedid not wish topledge the House
to his peculiar opinions. All he wanted was to obtain from the
House a manifestation that they would take into consideration that
question and relieve the people. The House ought also to go fur..
tiler and afford some means of protection to the voter against
'bribery, corruption, intimidation, and undite influence, and that
could only be done by the Ballot. It was said that it was danger-
ous to give the suffrage to the working classes, but he denied that
proposition. They had as great an interest in the prosperity of
the country as any other class, and they could not expect employ-
ment if the country was not tranquil and prosperous. It was said
that they were liable to corruption, but they would not be so if
there was not a higher class to corrupt them.—(Hear, hear.) ?t was
said further that they would be, if the franchise was conferred on
them, liable to undue influence, but that also he begged leave to deny.
He would be glad to know in what other class Hon. Members could
show so much devotion to public liberty as among the ranks of the
working men? He contended that the British Constitution was
founded on the principle of the whole people being represented,
and that was shown by their being another House to repre-
sent the feelings and wishes of the aristocracy. The House of
Commons ought to be the representative of the feelings and
wishes of the great mass of the industrious classes, which at present
it was not. He called on Hen. Gentlemen opposite to support his
motion. Let them prove by that that they took an interest in the wel-
fare of the great body of the people, and he called on the Hon. Gen.
tlemen opposite, who were to form part of the new Administration,
to establish some degree of popularity with the country by not
opposing .his motion: The party on his (Mr. S. Crawford's) side
of the House, in ceasing to advocate the popular rights in the
manner in which they formerly did, had laid themselves
open to unpopularity. The great power which the party opposite
had received in this country was nut attributable to the people's
being favourable to the principles of that party, but that they had
become disgusted with the conduct of those to whom they en.
trusted the advocacy and protection of their rights. It was unfor-
tunately but too true that the present Administration had refused
their support on many occasions to several important and salutary
measures which had been proposed for their consideration. He
conceived that if Ministers would rely upon the power of the people,
their strength could not be impaired. He could not refrain from
pointing out on the present occasion one of the greatest errors
which her Majesty's Government had committed—an error which
was the source of all the evils which had since arisen in the career
of Ministers, and that was the abandonment of the Irish Appropri-
ation Clause. With regard to the working classes, their sufferings
wetegreat,and they look forrelief prom those sufferings to the removal
of those restrictions which fettered commerce, but they looked for re.
lief with still more anxiety to the extension of the franchise. To
the party opposite he would say, that if they were the friends of
the people he gave them now an opportunity of proving it.—
(Cheers and laughter from the Opposition benches.) The Hon.
Member concluded by moving the amendment.
the amendment bald, that it
had thvgote for the original Address
G ebneeernaliJmOpoHnNibSiOe JOHNSON, in
because that would have implied an approval of all the measures
of the Administration and he considered that they had been
guilty of a wasteful expenditure of the public money, and of an
unjust and imPeatic interference with the interna affairs of
Foreign Powers, He had not on the other hand been able to
vote for th.e amendment of the 'Member for the West Riding
of Yorksmire, for that would have implied confidence on the
other side. And un looking back to years past, and recollecting
the misconduct of former Tory Governments, he could not say
that he-could repose any confidence whatever in them. There
was nothing in the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet last
night but flowing words. It was true he had a majority in that
House and in the House of Lords; but there was one thing wanting, he
haa not the voice of the people nor their good will, and he must
alter his conduct before he could obtain it. He would give his
cordial support to the present amendment, because he believed that
it pointed out the real causes of the distresses of the people.
Mr. WARD was convinced of the truth of all those principles
on which the Hon. Member tested his motion, and he must tress
pass upon the indulgence of the House while he stated the reasons
why, on the present occasion, he must decline giving that motion
his support —(Cheers.) The Hon. Member had said that in this
question they had nothing to do with the couveniences or prac-
tice of Parliament. Now in *his (Mr. Ward's) opinion the more
important a question was the more cautious ought they to be in
the manner of their discussing it.—(Cheers.) He regarded it rs
an insult to the popular interests in that House to bring forward
a question of that nature, when there was in fact no Ministry.—
(Loud cheers.) For the Ministry which had sat on that side of
the House last night was now defunct, and the members of the
coming Ministry were not yet fixed upon.—(Hear, hear.) Was
that a time for such a motion as this to be dashed upon the waters
without the slightest caution—without the slightest consideration
on which no five men in the House had been consulted, and with
regard to which no ten men were agreed as to what was to be done
in the event of its being carried ?---(Hear, hear.) He denied that
this motion was a test of popntar principles ; and, although he
would not record his vote against the motion—in the principles in
which he concurred—yet he should not record his vote in its favour
when brought forward in the questionable manner in which it was
brought forward. He would say that the Right Hon. Baronet
opposite was entitled to a lair consideration of those mea-
sures which he intended to bring forward, and of which
he had last night, in his usual manly manner, assumed
to himself the entire responsibility.—(Cheers.) He regarded
the Right lion. Baronet as the representative of the majo-
rity of the constituency of the country, and, therefore, he was
entitled to a respectful consideration of his measures. He (Mr.
Ward) had no confidence in him ; he did not think his measures
would be good; but they were entitled to his respectful consideration,
and that most certainly they should have.—(Loud cheers.) He
thought it •but fair to give the Right Hon. Bart. time to consider
his measures before he assumed the reins of Government.—(Loud
cheers.) He thought the present time so unfavourable for bringing
forward the motion that, although he should not vote against it,
he could not vote for it, but if it were pressed to a division he
should feel it his duty to withdraw before the question was put.—
(Loud cheers.)
Mr. ROEBUCK entirely concurred in what had fallen from the
Hon. Member for Sheffield. Few could doubt his (Mr. Roebuck's)
sentiments on the subjects alluded to in the motion ; but he thought
the present moment, when there was no responsible Government
to deal with those questions, so ill-timed for bringing forward such
a motion as the present, that he should most certainly not vote on
the question. The Right Hon. Baronet opposite undoubtedly
represented the majority of the House—(Hear, hear)—and con-
sidering the position in which he was placed by the majority of last
night, he thought it but respectful to the majority of the
constituency to afford that Right lion. Baronet a fair opportunity
of bringing forward his measures. He believed that those measures
would disaprioint the expectations of the people, but still he felt it

his duty to wait until the Bight. Hon. Baronet could be fairly in..
stalled in office, and then to give him a fair trial.—(Loud cheers.)
Questions of such magnitude as the present ought not to be brought.
forward at a time when there was no responsible Ministry,
in office.—(Loud cheers.) If it were pressed to a division he'
would at once retire. He was not afraid of any consequences
to himself. His opinion on all those subjects ware well known ;
but he thought the bringing forward such a motion at such a time
was a want of respect to the country, and therefore he should put
on his hat and leave the House at once.—(Hear.)
Mr. WALLACE thought the time at which the motion was in-
troduced was very appropriate—(on this announcement, Mr. Roe.
buck, Mr. Warsi, Mr. Hawes, and several other Liberal Members,
walked down the floor, and were met by tremendous cheers from
the Conservative benches, which Mr. Wallace accompanied by
waving his hat in the direction of the door, accompanied by some
expression, which, if we caught it rightly, was—" We can main-
tain our principles perfectly well without the Leadership of the
Hon. Members)—and he would avail himself of that opportunity
to give it his most cordial support. He knew of no Parliamentary
rule against snaking it in the absence of Ministers, or in the pre-
se,

cc of their successors, but if the Speaker informea him there was,
he would at once bow to the decision of the Chair. He thought the
amendment was a judicious and timely one.—(Hear, hear.) But if
they thought that in consequence of tie scene which took place, a
division would ensue in the Radical ranks,they were much mistaken.