The Sun.
London, England, 1823-06-20 00:00:00

STATE OF IRELAI%iD.

The Order of the Day_having been read,
The Duke of DEVONSHIRE said, that he had not origi-
nally intended to occupy the attention of the House till the
discussion which it had been expected would take place on the
subject of Ireland should have come on. But fearing lest de-
lays in the other House might prevent it till it was too late to
be effectual, he had felt that it would be a great misfortune to
allow the Session to pass away without dedicating at least
one night to the consideration of the state, the prospects,
and the Government of Ireland. Relying, therefore, on the
indulgence of the House, and the active support of his
Noble Friends around him, he should undertake to draw
their Lordships' attention to the affairs and sufferings of the
Sister Kingdom. lie was the more inclined to take this step
as he saw that the system of checking without exterminating
evils, tinder which a country, so rich in natural advantages,
and in the character of its inhabitants, had suffered so deeply,
continued to be pursued. The existence of those evils showed
how wrongly Ireland had been governed. When the people
enjoyed a moderate share of the comforts of life, it would be
found that acts of insubordination and violence were not corn-
mitt,d. Since the time of' Elizabeth the History of Ireland
presented an unbroken series of petty Insurrections, and of
measures of severity to repress them. It was now the duty. of
Parliament to follow a more equitable course : to inquire into,
the nature of the existing evils, and to devise weans for ap-
plying a speedy and eft'ectual remedy. It was a great re. •
prosch upon its justice that it had passed severe laws
whenever they had been required, without any attempt to
prevent their necessity by a liberal and impartial
It could not be denied that religious differences form one
of the great causes of agitation in Ireland, and without
some relaxation in the laws towards the Catholics it was
impossible to hope for real and permanent tranquillity in that
country. As long as a system of exclusion continued to exist,
it could not fail to produce a degree of irritation which would
circumscribe and defeat the beneficial tendency of salutary
measures. The whole condition and practice of the Gofem-
ment in Ireland demanded a prompt and thorough investiga-
tion. It was impossible that the country should be at peace
without a strict and impartial administration of justice.
There
was no advantage to be derived from an undecided and trim-
ming system, such as had been adopted. It was defended by
saying that it gave a triumph to neither party ; that might be
true, but its effect had been to offend both, and to create ge-
neral discontent. The truth was, that the Government of Ire-
land was almost entirely in the hands of that small minority
who went under the name of Orangemen, who, conscious
that they had no title to the affection or respect of the
people whom they had so long misgoverned, feared it • as
much as they were detested by it. Such a crisis must be
met by something more vigorous than the doctrine that no
triumph was to be iven to either party. As long as there
should be one law for the Protestants, and one for the Ca-
tholics, it would be impossible to rely on the attachment
of the people. The time was conic when a decisive step
must be taken, and when Parliament must either give its at-
tention to the popular feeling in Ireland, or support that Go.
vernment pinioned to the Irish -faction which had lost the con-
fidence of the people, and. had become odious. His Majesty's
Ministers had pledged' themselVes last year to take the system
of tythes into consideration, and as they had so air redeeme
other'_
their pledge that a measure was in progress through ate
House, he should only say that he was more convinced than
ever that to legislate on the subject was absolutely necessary for
the tranquillity of the country, and the safety of the Protestant
Established Church in Ireland. Ifhe were to state what in his
opinion should be done, he should urge, first, concession to the,
Catholics ; 2dly, an arrangement with a
most respect toant Thirty Tythes ;
Sdly, the abridgment of the power of that Protest,
which had so long prevailed in Ireland; and, lastly, vi.
gilant attention to the administration of the laws. Measures
were said to be in progress—let them be effective. Let
them nut only -prune existing evils, but at. *nee command-
and suppress them. Much depended on the Government or
Ireland, and he had conceived
meat f the Noble Marquis at its head. He felt digit
: pointed, however, great hopes at the appoint-
that the views of that Noble Lord ahnuld
not have 'been communicated to the House. It was impos,
sit* that that Alistinguished !individual ahauld not have given

his sentiments since last year, and he (the Duke of Devonshire)
should be curious to know if he still adhered to the opinions
which he had then expressed, and haw far they had, or had not,
been acted upon. If the people of Ireland saw a firm de-
termination in the House to inquire into their evils and
grievances, the effect would be most beneficial. Whilst Par-
liament adopted measures of severity to repress violences, 'let
it also show that it was willing to consult their happiness and
prosperity. The Noble Duke concluded by moving a Resolu-
tion, stating,
" That this House has learnt with the deepest regret, from
the information laid before it during the present Session, by
command of his Majesty, that a general spirit of violence, ma-
nifesting itself in outrages of the most alarming nature, has
for some time prevailed in many parts of Ireland, and that in
the opinion of his Majesty's Government, extraordinary powers
are required for the protection of the persons and property of
his Majesty's Subjects in that kingdom. That this House will
be ready to concur in any measures which may be found indis-
pensible for the prompt and effectual suppression of these dis-
orders ; but experience has proved that coercion and force,
however necessary to avert a pressing and immediate danger,
have not been sufficient to eradicate evils, whose magnitude
and frequent recurrence induce a belief that there must exist
some material defect in the state and administration of the
laws, and the system of government, to the examination of
which, with a view to the adoption of more permanent and ef-
fectual remedies, it is the dotyent this House to apply itself
without further delay."
Earl BAT Hump contended that there was no evidence
that the system acted upon by his Majesty's Government had
been injurious to Ireland. As to the charge that nothing but
measures of severity had been adopted towards that country', it
was wholly unfounded. The principle on which the British
Parliament had acted since the Union. might be ascertained by
a reference to the Statute Books. Ireland was an agricultural
country ; the first enactments of the United Parliament tended
to create a vent for her produce. In 11106 a free importation of
grain was allowed from Ireland into this country, when that
from foreign states and from our own colonies was prohibited.
This was a monopoly of the corn trade given her ; and when
in after years the Corn Laws were revised, the same ad-
vantage was left in her possession, in consequence of which
her produce had more than doubled itself. Neither was this the
only measure adopted for her relief. The administration of' jus-
tice abounded with abuses. The mode of selecting Sherifik was
one of the most injurious ; that mode had been changed by Act
of Parliament, and assimilated to that which prevailed in Eng-
land. The fines occasioned by the forfeitures of recognizances
in criminal proceedings were not equally collected ; that abuse
was also corrected, and Sheriffs were made to levy all fines in-
discriminately. It had been the practice of Grand Juries not
to examine witnesses, but to dscide on the depositions of Ma-
gistrates whether 'Bills were found or not; that grievance was
removed, and the practice placed on the same footing as in
England. Still later, the passing of the Police Bill had pro-
duced a great and important improvement, as it would be
found stated in the dispatches of the Noble Marquis at the
head of the Irish Government. Another measure had taken
place to improve the 'character and respectability of the Ma-
gistrates. A revision of them had been made, and the ope-
ration of the measure, as far as it hail yet proceeded, had
given the greatest satisfaction. Another important advantage
had been secured to Ireland by the introduction of Petty
Sessions into that country ; for the administration of justice
would be very different when, instead of taking place at home
and in private, it should be in presence of several Magi's.
tmtes, and by their publicity the proceedings should be under
the controul of public opinion. The Noble Duke was not
justified, therefore, in asserting that no measures had been
passed for improving the administration of justice in Ireland.
Neither had that branch alone been attended to. The system
of Grand Jury Presentments, that great source of evil to Ire-
land, had just been abolished by an Act of Parliament.—
Some idea might be formed of the grievances occasioned
by that system, when he should state, that when the Res
venue of Ireland was only 4,000,0001., the amount raised
by the authority of Grand Juries, for which no account
was given, was little less than 1,000,0001. In the removal
of this system had not the happiness of Ireland been contd.
.dered ? Had it. not also been considered by the granting of
loans on small securities for employing the poor in public
works, and by the measure for improving fisheries ? The sum
voted this year in relief to Ireland amounted to 30,0001.; that
voted before the Union by the Irish Parliament was WM
Which of them had the interests of that country most at heart?
Mr. Owen's plan respecting
which
evening been presented to their
Ile should
a uld
petitiongie no
h oatritnhilisti n
Lordships, but he should state what was a fact, that there was
no extent to which his Majesty's Government were not vi Ming
to go, provided there be a reasonable prospect of success, to
provide effectual employment for the poor. Another great
measure for the relief of Ireland had been the consolidation
of the two Exchequers. By the Articles of the Union that
country wits obliged to furnish two seventeenths of the general
charges of the empire. Incapable occasionally to raise that
amount within herself, she had had recourse to bosns, and had
contracted a Debt she could not pay. In 1816 England had
taken upon herself the whole of that Debt, and hail discharged
Ireland from the obligation of paying two seventeenths; and
what she now paid did not exceed two twenty-sevenths. By
this measure Parliament had obtained an opportunity of re-
lieving her front a weight of taxer. The vVindow lax had
been removed last year, and the whole of the Assessed 'faxes
Allis ; whilst England continued to pay a large proportion of the
latter. Was it fair therefore to say that all that Parliament
had done towards Ireland bail been the passing of repressive
and severe measures ? Those measures had been repealed,
and therefore talked of, because they were of a temporary
character. Those for the improvement of Ireland were untie,
ticed, because they were permanent in their nature, and were
acting beneficially hut ailently. Were they not conciliatory
means, and adopted-in the true spirit of conciliation, and not
applied to the exclusive advantage of a party, but to the Irappi,
ness of the whole community. As to Catholic Emancipation,
he was sure that their Lordships would consider the subject
too large to be discussed at present. The motion of the Noble
Duke differed but little from that of a Noble Marquis (I.ans.
down) made last year on the 14th of June. That Noble Mar-
quis had then stated that the Magistracy of Ireland required
revision ; it had been revised. Ile had recommended the low.
ering of the duty on distillation ; that duty had been lowered.
He had said, diminish the weight of taxation; that weight had
been reduced. Ile had said, do something to induce absentees
to return ; the total repeal of the Assessed Taxes in Ireland
was a measure calculated to produce that effect. He bad re.
comntended, as a point of paramount importance, a commute-
tation of tithes ; a bill to that effect was now in progress through
Parliament. All that butt been recommended had therefore
been done, yet the Noble Duke's motion implied that there
had been decided misconduct on the part of the Government.
He denied that there was evidence of misconduct on the part
of the Government, or of neglect on that of Parliament. He
did not think that the House would believe it after what he
had said. Being friendly to enquiry, he was unwilling to give
the motion a direct negative, and should therefore move the
previous question.
The Earl of CLARE said that the Noble Earl who had just
sat down had misunderstood his (Lord Clare's) observations to
which he had referred.
Viscount
n
aCtlLlnFplproEveinn
Nseaitdi that certainly there could have
been n our relative situation with Ire-
land, land, it' we had not permitted her to import the produce of her
soil. As to that forbearance which the Noble Earl boasted of,
respeiting the finances of Ireland, there erne no merit in this;
for their Lordships could not draw any more from that
fated
land. With respect to Irish absentees, they were the.fruit of •
the Union of the two Countries; anti if their Lordships were,
pleased with the Union, they must ,cherish the offspring
of it. lie must remark, that the population of Ireland
was essentially Catholic; and- ever *nice the year :173.1,
when it might be supposed that the Church was not more
practicable than
now, the tithes were disputed, and ff • 4 airs
continued in this posture ti 111760, from which period, when Ire-
land had become an agricultural country, there was nothing but
sanguinary laws, murders, rebellions, and executions. Ireland
was not indebted to this country, unless her subjugation could.
he demonstrated to have been a benefit to genie f. Even in
England tithe was a serum' hardship, anti what must it not
be in Ireland ? Tithe was said to be of divine origin, and
perhaps it was, but for a peeple and for rises different to those to
which it wits now applied. The Noble Lord proceeded to quote
from M r. Maxim's %York relative to the proportion ofparish es and
• tithe payers in a particular Barony in the
ran sand
result of which was, p the Payers being many anti the tithe
small, the necessity employing proctors wax rendered impe.
native. Ile grieved to say that many of their Lordships knew
of Ireland ;
sand more lie
nothing of the suite was the pity-elee,
pity.! I Then look at th E
repeated, _mere vies the PI .e edema:et&
courts,
where Viergylllan was the Judge in .behalf .of his

fellow Clergymen. In fact, altogether the state of Ireland was,
shocking to contemplate, whatever were the cites that pro.
duced it or the difficulties of the remedies to be applied to it.
In Ireland, by the Act of 1734, parishes were united ; and there
was one, pariah nearly 20 miles in length in which there was only
one Church, and scarcely more than one panion to visit it. The
evils of Ireland would be revenged sooner or later, if their Lord-
ships did not interfere in time. The Vicar-General of Kilkenny
was a respectable man, but it was not so much of men as of
the general system that he complained. The people of
Ulster were not in the same melancholy condition with
the people of the South, for they were Protestants, and not
afflicted by the most atrocious code which was ever invented by
the perverted ingenuity of man. It was not therefore to he
wondered at that they (their Lordships) were hated and disliked.
Why not, he asked, revive the woollen trade which was torne
from Ireland ? At any expence, it would be desirable to bring
it back. Frederick of Prussia, a cut throat and a robber hail
said, that to sow he must reap, and he therefore sowed cotton in
the wastes of Poland. The great matter with respect to Ireland
was, to Impress upon the people that their Lordships were alive
to their interests ; if that were done, Ireland would still prove
a mine of wealth to this country. Above all, however, let the
intolerant remnant of the Penal Code be abrogated. Lord
3lacartney supported his opinion ; and no man was ever a more
zealous defender of Protestantism than that Noble Lord. The
consummation of Ireland's misfortunes was completed by the
Bills of Discovery, which broke up every tie of family and kin-
dred, and left to the hospitable no roof again to hold within it
the guest, it interest prompted the latter to make a discovery.
The last rag of such a system should be repealed. There were
other things to be done, especially with the tithes; for in Ire-
land they had a Church without a flock. if Bishops and Parsons
without flocks were to be paid, let them be paid, but in some
other manner 'than by tithe. The pastors, the real pastors of
Ireland were the Catholic Priests, who were neither to be bought
nor bribed, and whose conduct was of the most exemplary na-
ture. The object of the Clergy should be to instruct, to teach
the people; but for the Protestant Minister, he had no flock to
teach. Why then be
.paid as they were ? The more he said of
the other House, particularly in the recent proceedings against
the Sheriff of Dublin, and the Orangemen, the more he was
induced to think that without Reform they could not much
longer govern the country. The Newspapers over and over again
had told their Lordships—
The LORD CHANCELLOR—Order, order,
Lord CEIFIWN—WeII, he was sorry to be out of order in
making a statement of what their Lordships knew as well as he
did. One effect, however, of the recent proceedings in the other
House was, that whatever differences existed formerly between
Catholics were now done away, and they were all united to.
gether, and thank God for it ! The Noble Lord here advert(
to the state of our finances, which would, he, feared, prevent
us from maintaining our Maritime ascendancy. That which
.had happened might happen again, and we might see the
French land in Irelanttas they did in 1796 and 1790; and
would it not therefore be right to place Ireland in that situa-
tion in which the bribery of the enemy might not tempt her,
nor continued oppression allieniated herfrom this country ?
Ile prayed God, however, that such an event might never hap.
pen. Ito might have said something offensive to delicate ears,
and he was sorry for it : but he felt within himself that he had
only done his duty.
Earl DARNLEY felt that the time was come, when, if
Parliament did not put its shoulder to the wheel, what was
destined to be the best bulwark of the empire, would prove
the cause of its ruin. The Acts descanted upon by the
Noble Secreary of State only amounted to this—that from
time to time, on strong representations being made, regula-
tions had been adopted towards Ireland which did some good
'as far as they went. The two Exchequers had been consoli-
dated, because the only other alternative was to declare Ire.
land a BankrUpt. There was therefore no great 'merit in the
Act. After having confided for four or five years to promises
he found that nothing had yet been done which was really ef-
fective. In that [louse nothing whatever. In the other there
certainly hail been many wearisome nights spent in examina-
tion and debate on the attars of Ireland ; but had not the re.
suit been a triumph to the party by whom Ireland had
been so long misgoverned, and to a Gentleman whom he
' haul introduced to their Lordships in the bumble character
of a dear seller of stationery to the Irish Government
Offices ? A measure was in progress fur the commutation
of tithes ; but he was told that it gave no satisfaction to
any class in Ireland. 11e dospairua of any thing effeetual
being done for the relief of that country. The principle on
which she had been hitherto governed, had been a principle and
a system of disunion. Let not Parliament be too sure that,
under the circumstances of Europe, it, was sound policy to
deny the boon of emancipation to six millions of Catholics.
Should the House of Bourbon, triumphant in Spain, wish to
avail itself of Catholic bigotry, would it be safe to leave
Ireland opposite tilled with causes of discontent ? He cer.
tainly did not think Catholic Emancipation a panacea for all
the evils of that country, but he was convinced that nothing
save a total reversion of the system hitherto pursued towards
her could make her great and happy. No one had more re-
spect than he felt for the Noble 3larquis at the head of the
Irish Government, but he had been astonished when he had
seen him accept that office under the circumstances in which
he was to fill it. That motley Government seemed arrayed in
all the colours of the rainbow, in which, however, Orange
preponderated, and its attention seemed more engrossed by the
wish of keeping in place than by that of consulting the feelings
and interests of the country. lie trusted that their Lordships
would agree to the motion of his Noble Friend, and would
take an early opportunity next Session of sifting all the evils
of Ireland to the bottom, and of relieving her, not by amend-
ing, but by reversing the whole system under which she had
been governed.
Lord GOSFORD said that, in his opinion, no motion was
ever made more deserving of their Lordships support than
this. The present disastrous state of Ireland, it appeared to
him, was owing to a long-continued system of tins-govern-
ment, which it behoved that House to do its utmost to put
an end to.

•
Lord CALEDON supported the motion.
Lord INIABYBOROUGH complained of the unjust and
bpartial way in which the Noble Duke had stated the case, as
etween tteland and the United Parliament of Great Britain
and Ireland. He had endeavoured to make out that the

conduct of the British Parliament had been one undeviating
system of coercion since the time of the Union. Ile spoke in
the hearing of many Noble i.ords who were conusant of 'the
facts, that the Parliament had never lost sight of the improve-
ment of that country, doing the utmost they could do, by
means of Commission of Inquiry and uthetwise. The fullest
investigation had been given throughout to every point which
could possibly affect the happiness of the people of Ireland—
But be should be satisfied to rest his refutation of the Noble
Duke's assertion, on the frequent and large grants of money
which had been made for the promotion nt matters intimately
connected with the national improvement, No less than 614,0001.
had been granted since the Union to the Board of First Fruits.
Besides which let them look at the large sums granted for pub-
lic works, for loans to distressed banks, &c. within the last few
years. Large sums, as their Lordships knew, hid been voted
tier the promotion education, and these he was happy to say
had been fairly distributed, without partiality to the Protest-
ants,.or exclusion towards the Catholic Schools.. There was
also established in Ireland a permanent Institution for the ex-
tension of those benevolent objects. If. the House alone con-
sidered the benefit which had been administered in the number
of public math that had been cut, and „the bridges and canals
that had been built and made, no ground of charge would re-
main against the British Government. In the administration
of the Noble Marquis, who at present directed the affairs of
Ireland, great advances had been made towards improiement
in all those points which had always been considered the
real evils of the country. The alteration in the Distillery
Laws, was a most happy and effective change of system.--Neith
Neither did he mean to confine his approbation to any parti-
cular Government since the Union. For instance, the Admi-
nistration of the Noble Lords opposite in 1806 had given two
boons in Ireland. One was the Insurrection Act.—(Cries of
No ! from the Opposition Benches.)—He could only say that
but six weeks ago their Lordships' Attorney-General at that
time told him that he had prepared this Act under their orders,
although it was true they did not continue in office long enough
to carry it into effect. Another boon was, the opemng of the
ports and admitting the exportation of corn to England.. Then,
he contended, that to agree to the Noble Duke's Resolution
would be to cast an unfair and unjust colour of censure on the
conduct of Parliament. The Noble Duke could state nothing
alfainst the British Government anti Parliament but the refusal
of Catholic Emancipation ; but much as he wished to see that
. measure pissed, he must say, and the Noble Lard s apposite
knew thut it was impossible to do so at present. "Plw Noble
3larquis at the,head of the Irish Government most curiously
1 and fortunately possessed the confidence of the Noble Lords

_ . .
opposite, and yet they could got agree.in commendation of any.
one act of his government. It was said that his measures were
milk and water. But be had done what, another Government
could do in respect of tithes ; he had suceoeded in framing two
Bills on that important subject fit to be laid before Parliament.
He had also brought more measures before Parliament than
almost any preceding Government of that country in' the same
space of time. One of these, and most useful it was, Was the
regulation with reference to small stills.
Lord HOLLAND expiessmil his =prise that his Majesty's
Ministers had no better case to rest upon than that which they
had laid before them. The sum total of what they told them
was, that so many boons had been granted to Ireland that there
was no reason to investigate the admitted evils which afflicted
that country. What ungrateful people, said they, these
men must be to be so rebellious, after so many boons granted
by this country to them? The Noble Lord who had just, sat dawn
was very fond of bringing into debate what had once been the
opinion and the conduct of this man and that man, as though a
great question like this was to be decided by such a course of
argument. It was rather a stale scent to allude now to what
Nut been doneLi years ago, and which the Noble Lords, p.
posite had never ceased to track ; and if Noble Lords oppozite
were resolved to adhere to this tit qnoque sort of argument, it
would be necessary they should change plasm; with hiraindhia
Noble Friends, to give themselves an opportunity of havimg a
fresh foundation.—(A laugh !) But to come to the question;
what answer to the present state of Ireland was it to detail to
them, as the Noble Lord had, all the boons granted by .the
llritish Parliament to that country ? How would the:Noble
Lord have liked to have all his tirades against the late Ruler
of France answered by a reference. to all the bridges -he had
built, the roads he had made, and .the palaces he heti
raised ? One of the boons of which the Noble Lord spoke
was the Insurrection Act, which he was so kind as to attri..
bate to him and his Friends. It was indeed true that "the At.
torney-General had prepared it, and that he (Lord Holland)
had read it ; but it was equally true that it was his inten.
tam to have opposed it mast strenuously in the Cabinet, before
which it never did come. These things, however, were
nothing to the evils under which Ireland was unhappily la.
bouring ? Something there was in the system of that country
radically wrong, and he maintained the propriety of the Noble,
Duke's Resolution in attributing many of its evils to the harsh.
ness which had been shorn towards a, and the coercive po.
licy by which it had been governed. For his own part he must
say, that all his hopes and expectations from the appointment
of the Noble Marquis, at present Lord Lieutenant, had been
grieviously disappointed. His confidence in that Noble Per-
son, however, was undiminished, and as far as he actually was
concerned in the Irish administration, he placed every reliance
on the soundness and wisdom of his views. But he apprehend.
ed that Noble Lord, to use the languageof his Noble Brother,
was in a " false position,"—in a position, as he took it to mean,
in which he expected more assistance from his enemies than
his friends, and where he could do no good to the party which
he was disposed to support. lie could assure the Noble Lord
opposite, who had just sat down, that it was not measures such
as the Grand Jury Presentments, the Distillery Regulations,
that were calculated to obliterate from the minds of the Irish
people a sense of their long inflicted series of injuries and op-
pressiona. As to the Tithe Bills which were toilet so much good
he did not expect they would even become available this Sesaion.
It was necessary to seek to amend the condition of that country
in a true spirit of peace. He would not, as a Member of-Par-
liament, condescend, in answer to what had been said, to
explain what had been the views of the Administration of
1806, with reference to the Government of Ireland. This, how.
ever, he would say, that they had always intended to treat the
mass of the Irish people in that spirit of kindness and old Eng-
lish good humour which had ever characterized the ancient
vernment of this land. One great evil in Ireland was, that
there was one law for the rich and another for the poor, and
both were badly executed. The House had heard what had
been done by the present GoYernment, and he put it to them
whether his Majesty's Ministers bad redeemed the pledge
they had given last year. Was Ireland tranquilized ? NVas
there any fine in Ireland who had more confidence in the Go-
vernment now than last year ? Surely the Noble Lords opposite
could not tell them that the Tithe Bill and the Distillery Bill
were all that was meant by the great expectations held out to
them lait year, when they had appealed to the appointment of
Marquis Wellesley as a proof of their intention to go to the bot-
tom of the evils of that country. All government was esta.
hlished for the good of the governed. All government, there-
fore, must be tried by its fruits, of the way in which it worked ;
and would any one apply such a test to Ireland, and take credit
for its government ? It was useless to tell them that the evil
lay in the Landlords, in the Absentees, or in the Magistracy,
the facts must bring them to the conclusion, that there was no
security for any rights which had not a share in the Govern.
meat. IVith reference to the present troubled state of Ire-
land, it behoved them well to look at the state of' affairs in
Spain ; for if Spain, Portugal, anti France were united • under
a Bourbon Government, ruling by favour of Divine Right.,
resting on the Catholic Religion and the Holy Alliance, and
supported by the Army of the Faith, and bands of 31issionarics
and Jesuits, the misgoverned Catholics of Ireland would be.
come objects of great commiseration and jealousy to those
united powers. if they could not govern Ireland well, he
hoped they would not govern her long. If they could only
govern by force, whatever the lawyers or law books might say,
he should contend that it was an illegal Government. For
these reasons he called upon them to consent to inquiry. There
was no greater fallacy than to talk of a Government granting
boons to a people. Ile knew of no boon a Government could
dispense to the governed ,• for whatever they could do for their
benefit belonged to them in justice, and it was the duty of their
Rulers to accord. The Noble lord concluded by declaring his
intention to support the original motion.
The Earl of 'LIMERICK attributed many of the evils of
Ireland to the state of religion in that country. Ho had met
with many Captain Rocks in that country ; and from them he
had learned the true object of all their depredations and out.
rage. He had been very candidly, and at the same time' boldly
informed that their Ingle object was to drive away thaberetics
and get their property ; and that until they had attained that,
they never would be quiet. The chief remedy, in his opinion,
was to devise some mode of employment for the poor, and the
establishment of a woollen manufactory ; these would do more
than building bridges or making roads. If that were done, in
a very short time they would see the midnight robber and as.
sassin converted into the peaceable and industrious artisan.--
Whatever integrity, ability, and exertion could do, he believed
the present Lord Lieutenant would do for Ireland. As the
Resolution implied a degree of censure upon the Noble Lords
opposite, as not having done what they could do for frelandite
could not vote for it. Be hoped that, 11w the sake of whit: they
had already done,' they would go on and do more.•
Lord KING hoped that those who voted against a motion
fur inquiry would resat the Insurrection Act, which he believed
was the only efficient Act this Session, anti one certainly, more
fitted for a slave island than a free country. That country was
exactly in the same state it had been in for the last twenty.
three years. In fact, the principle of the Irish Government
was a complete paradox. They bad a sound and liberal Con.
stitution established which was the sport of factions. The
Chtirch of England had been transplanted there, but any thing
but peace and good will prevailed. 'I hey had an exuberant
soil, with atten&int misery. His opinipn was, that the people
were always what the Governmett made them, and he should
be glad to know whether the Noble Earl opposite would on
this occasion repeat, as he had before done, the lines of the
Poet—

" Of all the ills that human kind endure,
How few are those which Government can cause or cure."

Such indeed WO the Government of that country, that the name
of Ireland was a disgrace to the civilized world,. If their Lord.
ships refused to go into inquiry now, they would add to the
triumph of that faction, which was perhaps even then enjoying
the triumph of the Orange hero on his return from a pilgrimage
to the English Legislature.
The Duke at' LEINSTER, in adverting to the Institution
for the promotion of Education in Ireland, said, that he hail
left it two years ago because of its conduct, and if some refor•
potion were not made, it could not stand.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN expressed his disappoint.
merit at not having heard the Noble Earl opposite (the Earl
of Liverpool) state the muses which hail prevented his 312.
jesty's Government from redeeming the pledge they, had
liven last year to probe the evils at Ireland to the bottom.
That country had never been in a worse situation .than it.
was at present since the year 1708, and yet they saw
nothing eKetual done for ha tranquillity. Credit had, loam
given to him by a Noble Secretary of State opposite, as
having onggested rneagurtm width hail since been made
available by his Majesty's Government. lie was sensible of
this commendation, but he was also sensible that the Ittiap.
don of one single measure WaS not stifliri‘Jit in the present
extremity ,at` that coantry. Notwithstanding the way in which

311ohle Master of the Minn& mentioned lhe- measure of"
Administration of 1800, relative to the importation of Irish'
orn into English ports, he maintained, that no measure was
better founded in justice than that measure. For what could,
be more intolerable or unjust than that Ireland should be
made to consume the woollens, the hardware, and the ma-
nufactures of.'England, and not be allowed in return to ex-
port ber only produce, that of provisions. But what would',
the measures pointed out by the same Noble Lord, viz. Grand..
Jury Presentments Bill, Courts of Justice and Education
Institutions, do for the benefit of Ireland. They were told that
the grants for education had been distributed impartially, with..
out reference to religious distinctions; but he denied that any
sums bad been given to Catholic schools under the direction of
Catholics. It' he were to be told that the State could not en-
conrage the rearing of Catholics as such, he should be prepar-'
cal with his answer, viz. that an experience of 100 years ought
'to have taught them that the mass of the population of Ireland,
-must remaus Catholics; that, they could. not be converted..—
When thestrquestions were brought forward, a•ready answer
'was generally given from the other side—that the remedy.was
• to be applied to the effectand not to the cause. This was the
:-fellacy of their Government, the evil whiehlreland hid to con-
:wad against. The evils of hersituation were to be traced to
no natural causes, nor did it require the penetrating genius
of a Montesquieu, or the profound wisdom of a Bacon to
determine from the problem offered by the existing appear-,
ance of that country,- that the Institutions had been bad for the
• last 100 years. They had lately heard from high authority,
-that the notion of a balance of Power in Europe was an obis°.
.:fete and useless one; and for it had been substituted a sort of
:balance of opinions at home. Such a policy—dissentions in
its origin, it .was palpable to him, never could answer any good
-end. Ireland was unfortunately distinguished from every other
•,,eivilized country. She had a church which had no hold upon
the people. The administration of the law was not reverenced
in consequence of a deep-seated feeling that it was
stered in exclusion to the mass of.the, people. He particularly
alluded to the unnecessary exclusion of the Catholics from
offices they were permitted to enjoy. Out of 2,540 offices,
-which Catholics were competent to fill, only 100 were occu.
pied by them. When the House considered that the popula-
tion of the respective classes of Catholics and Protestants was
as one to six in favour of the former, they could not fail to
conclude that some power was ,at work to shut out the fair
:promotion of the Catholics. He .was confident that nothing.
was more necessary for the repose -of Ireland than that this in-
fluence:should be rooted out. And he could not help here ex.
pressing his regret that on a late occasion; in another place, an
opportunity had been taken to strengthen and confirm the pre.
judice to •mhich he had alluded. Nothing operated more
against the tranquillity of Ireland from the:determined reve-
rence and adherence which the peasantry of :Ireland paid to
an oath taker 4 for no matter what purpose. Here there was
an opportunity of enforcing upon their minds the conviction
that no oath could be sanctioned which was not:taken for the
benefit of the mass of their fellow 'subjects, :which, however,
had been thrown away in favour of giving 'a triumph which
ment directly to confirm the people-in their erroneous and bane.
tul opinion. if they did not now consent to inquiry into the
state of that country, theetime would, conleavhen they must
consent to it.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL assured their Lordships, that•if
he had consulted his personal convenience, rather than that.of
their Lotdships, he should have proposed an adjournment of
this discussion. He would not, 'however, sin that, but threw
himself on their indulgencein case haahoutd fail to make him-
self' intelligible. With 'regard to the motion of the Noble
Duke, lie did not think itavas one which their Lordships ought
to assent to. He regretted' the calamities of Ireland, and
admitted the expediency of taking measures to remove
them. But the motion went far beyond this ; for it went to
throw the whole weight :of those calamities upon his Majesty's
Government. He would not follow the example of those who
had gone into the ancient policy of the Government of Ireland.;
he did not mean to defend it. But with reference to its mo-
dern Government, it had been justly said that no period had
ever been so prolificin beneficent acts to Ireland as the period
. since the commencement or his late Majesty's reign. They
had been told that these werebut acts of justice; and he was
disposed as fully as the Noble Lord to admit that they were
so. But mast there not be circumstances attached to those
Acts which deserved that they '.should be looked upon with
more favourable eyes ? 'For instance, in the grants of public
money that had been made, England did more for Irelaoil
than she would have done for herself. Then, with respect 40
the Government of the Noble Lord at present Lord Lieutenant
of Ireland, he was'willing that it should be tried by the purpose
which had been held out to be the object of his policy. At the
same time no one wouldeaty that Ireland was to be cured by a
piece of magic, and that by a stroke of a wand disturbance was
to be for ever banished. No 'man would hold out such pro.
spects with the wisest system of laws ever framed. It musthe
years before the fruits of Marquis Welleshty'aimproved mind-
nistration could be seen. The measures which bad always been
held out as in contemplation of the Noble Lord were four, and,
these were destined- to go a great way towards 'those evils cor-
rigible by law. But the misfortune of Ireland was, that agreat
part of her evils were not corrigible by law. ,The measures,
however, were, a new system of po m ce, which,liatured and
executed, must ultimately obviate' many inconveniences, and
which involved another measure for the regulation of' the' Ma.
gistracy. Vile wont a most important object, for It went to
eradicate those defects in the lower Courts having the admi-
nistration of law betwixt rich and poor. :The next .was the
Tithes, and a new system of Distillery. Laws. -These were
;the four amendments which the Government of Ireland held
out. The new policesystem had been already established in
;Many counties, and, promised great advantages, if generally
carried into effect. The 'amendment in the Magistracy had been
t• begun with great effect, and gave considerable satisfaction, and
:the Irish Government did all they. could to mature their plans.
Last year, in all the discussions, they had been told that the
4tate of the tithes and the distillery laws were the great grie-
wsnces of Ireland. But this year they were taunted with bring.
Aug forward Imperfect measures with reference to the tithes.—
With respect to the tithes, lie desired 'to .know whether a vo.
/untary or compulsory commutation was desired. He wished
for the former, but considered that every principle of justice
e would be violated by the Letter. He was persuadedand Bads-
•• fled that the thing might be fairly and amicably arranged, for he
ewes Kure the clergy of Ireland were willing fairly to , meet the
..tithe payers on this
.question. Heovished it to be remembered
• that every man who purchased an estate in Ireland, purchased
but 2-10thsof that estate, and the remaining 10th did not belong
to bin.' Ile eulo,gized the moderation of the Irish Clergy, who
mere the most lenient exactors of rent. in conclusion, the main.
tamed that the Government had made rod the pledges it had
given. With respect. to the. Privileges enjoyed do iet° by the Ca. ,
-tholics in Ireland, he begged to state that it formed part of his
-Majesty's Instructions to every Lord Lieutenant to secure to the I
,-.ltornati Catholics the full enjoyment dull the privileges to 'which
• they were entitled. This had been the charge to every Secretary
for Ireland, and had always been most anxiously looked to by
~lW.inisters. Catholics were admitted into many of those bodies,
from which they were formerly excluded. They now formed
part of the Revenue Boards, and in one of them a Catholic
Gentleman had been chosen' Deputy Chairman. It had been
stated that out of 2,540 officers, which Catholics were eligible by
law to hold, but 108 were actually held by Roman Catholics.
!The disparity was certainly groat, but then those who talked of
,the Catholics of Ireland amounting to 0 millions out of a popu.
laden of 7,500,000 ought to bear in mind, that if this calculation
were correct, forty-nine 8-fiftieths of the property of Ireland
was in the hands of the Protestants. When , this was reineen-
Altered, and when it was considered that the Catholics holding
but one-fiftieth part of the property of the country, must of
'necessity be unfitted by wanting education for many of the
offices which the law allowed them to hold, the disparity would
.not be so wonderful as It might at first seem. In-some of the
,counties of Ireland, Catholics were choien to serve as Grand
-jurors, whet/ the ,tame individuals were Protestants, they
• would riot be chosen. This arose from there being .a wish to
;place soma Catholics in that Situation, and there being but
'few to choose from those, were preferred for being Catholics,
who would not otherwise be selected on such an occasion.—
As to the charge that the law was not equally administered,
he denied the charge, and maintained that,,as far as education
• and other circumstances would permit, no difference was made
between Catholics and Protestants. In most countries where
disturbances occurred, the efforts of the disaffected were di-
rected against the Government, or the institutions of the
country. He denied the insurrectionary attempts and the com-
binations in Ireland appeared to have such objects in view.—
In the midst of the disturbances which occurred last year at
Limerick, it had been asserted, that if the King could have
appeared there, lie would have been received with every 'pos.
amble demonstration of loyalty. The present combinations
"were ageinst property, whether 'possessed by Protestants
or by Roman Catholics. The Catholic suffered as much
...as the Protestant. The instances were not so nuroy, because,
as lie bad already stated, the Catholic Proprietors were
"few; but, in proportion to their numbers, they had suffered as
much; and a more determined spirit of hostility bad been
manifested towards the wealthy Catholic than towards the
Protestant. They objected as much to the dues claimed by
the Ministers of their own chuneli, as to those demanded for
,the Protestant establishment, and the general service of the
'State. The insurrection which broke out in Connaught while
the Duke of Bedford was 'in Ireland, was produced by discon-
tent on account of the dues claimed by the Roman Catholic
priests.A similar spirit now prevailed. He could not avoid
attributing much of the evil which was the subject of complaint
to the extent to which ahsenteeship was carried in Ireland. It
was his opinion that. Ireland, though some evils were con.
Seined of as springing' front the Union, derived more benefit
than she sustained injery from that measure. It was so with
:Scotland, and he knew of no reason why it should not be the

same with Ireland. What he wished to do was to infuse into
Ireland English notions and English feelings, so as to creAte in
the different classes the same regard for the well being of each
other which existed in this country. He vindicated the principle
of the English Poor Laws, and without demanding their immedi-
ate introduction into Ireland, he thou ht they ought not to be
hastily dismissed front consideration. Ile she wed shat connected
rich and poor, and introduced a better system of police, which
was no where more to be desired than in Ireland. He opposed
the motion, because he considered it to contain an untrue de-
scription of Ireland. If any particular grievance were pointed
out as calling for inquiry he should be ready to agree to a
motion for that purpose, but the proposition before the House
was entirely one of generalities, and by its generality it de-
feated its own object, and he therefore felt called upon to vote
against the motion of the Noble Duke.

-The Bishop of KILDARE vindicated the parochial incum- I
bents oflieland from the aspersions which had been thrown
out against'them. He denied that they had been required by
law to open schools at their own expense, but declared them
to have greatly exerted themselves. to 'promote education in
that country, and to improve the condition of the people.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN explained;
The Earl of CARNARVON thought if the,Noble Lord
were-sincere in wishing to infuse E9glitili feelings intolreland,
that no time ought to be lost in entering uponthat inquiry which
was now called for. The Noble Earl wished to infuie this
spirit into Ireland by promoting unioti betWeet the part:alai
authorities and the people, and he had, spoken of the ad.
vantages which Scotland enjoyed from tech a state of things,
but he forgot that Scotland had a Church of her own in
accordance with the feelings of the '.peOple, which had not
been subjected to our Episeoptil Government. It was in
a time of profound peace that their Lordships ought to en-
deavour to make these improvements in the ebndition of the
people, which were alike essential to the present prosperity
and future safety of the nation. It' would be difficult by any
act of conciliation at once to, recover the lost affectionwof the
pepple .of Ireland.; but, if that :House-manifested a diapciii.;
tion to do them justice, and to efface -the recollection of the
past, much might yet be achieved. Re should, therefore,
support the motion of the Noble Duke, as he hoped a majo-
rity of their Lordships would, for it was his opinion that such a
decision would do more tovrordo tranquillity than all the expe-
dientwhitherto recon.mended. The,people oareland were op-
pressed. and rendered desperate, and he verily believed that such
wawthe state of
,the country, that if• 20,000 men werelanded
there, the existing Government would be overthrown. If such
the situation of the country now,-lie pressed upon their Lord-
ships the consideration of the dangers which might hereafter
arise, and which he called upon them to avert, by consenting
before it was too late to go into that inquiry which had been
asked, and which in his judgment was necessary to the,pre-
servation of Ireland.

Their Lordships then divided, when_ the number. were-
Contents • - . - 43
Proxies - .- - .. 11;- 59
Not-contents - -
Proxies - - . - . ;i9--105
Majority - - —46.
;The House adjourned at a Quarterbefore Two this morning