The Sun.
London, England, 1840-03-21 00:00:00

clerks at Woolwich. That disparity was a large one. He
found that the highest salaries paid to clerks at the Tower
or Pal!mall amounted to from 500/. to 9001., while the

highest salaries paid to clerks at Woolwich amounted to no
more than 3001. a year. He wished to ask the Gallant

...,.._ ..._._ __ „
Baronet if any reason could be assigned fur so large a dis-

parity.
Sir H. VIVIAN said that the difference of salaries al-
luded to arose from the more important and confidential

duties discharged by clerks in London. Besides that dif-
ference existed before he had become connected with the
Ordnance Department. He was quite ready to enter into
any discussion relative to that department, and he regretted
the absence of the Noble Lord the Member for Northum-
berland, as he would be willing to meet his objections. '
With regard to the recommendations of the Hon. Member
for Kilkenny, he thought that they would materially injure
one of the most important dep-srtm,ast, of G , • ornimt,
and 5 q.iously ser, c,
Mr. W. ATTWOOD did not wior to aecuie
Right Hon. and Gallant Member of having introduced
any new system into his department. With regard to the
explanation given by the Gallant Member, he should only,
say that the reasons assigned by him for the limited sala-
ries of the clerks at Woolwich, did not appear satisfactory
to a large class of persons.
Sir H. 11 ARDING E said that he was ready to vindi-
cate the high salaries paid to the clerks at the Tower and
Pallmall. Those gentlemen were not at the head of large
departments, but they were charged with very important
duties. His Right Hon. and Gallant Friend, and other
members of the Government, were obliged to receive the
greater part of their information from the gentlemen in
question. He could also bear testimony to the honourable
manner in which they discharged their duties. The clerks
at Woolwich were not called on to fill situations equally
important, and they were not, of course, paid in the same
proportion. He would take the opportunity of stating
that,of all the departments in which he had been employed,
there was none in which the clerks were worse paid, con-
sidering the nature of their duties, than the clerks of the
Ordnance.
Sir H VIVIAN said that he could only say that, from
his experience for five years, he believed that the clerks to
whom his Right Hon. and Gallant Friend had alluded,
fully deserved the salaries paid to them.
A sam not exceeding 168,8744, was then voted for the
salaries of clerks at the Tower, Pallmall, and Woolwich,
and other Civil establishments.
A sum not exceeding 106,9301. was voted for the ex-
penses of the Royal Engineers, Sappers, and Miners.
A sum not exceeding 354,0731. was voted for the ex-
penses of the Horse Artillery, of the Master- General's
Department, and the Royal Academy at Woolwich.
A sum not exceeding 37,714/. was voted for the Sa-
laries of Barrack-Masters of the United Kingdom, and
the Colonies.

Mr. HUME thought this last item a very large one.
The vote was agreed to, as was that of 437,7111. fur the
Ordnance \\rocks, &c.
Mr. HUME remarking that it was lamentable to see
half a million squandered away thus, in Bermuda, New
South Wales, Canada, &c.
Sir H. VIVIAN said, if we have Colonies we must
defend them—(Hear, hear)—and if we have troops there,
they must be lodged.—(Hear, hear.) Our commerce als9
raised for the Colonies great sums, in duties.
Mr. HUME said our exports were by no means mainly
to the Colonies.
Sir DE LACY EVANS said his Hon. Friend's
argument would go to abandoning our Colonies alto-
gether.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME said he did not wish any Colonies to be
given up, but that only so many troops should be sent to
the Colonies as were needed, and the Colonies should
pay them.
Sir DE LACY EVANS agreed that the Colonies
should pay more, buc this was not a question for the
Ordnance, but for the general policy of the Govern-
ment.—( Hear, hear.)
On the vote of 180,4151. for Military and Civil Con-

tingencies,
Sir J. Y. BULLER said this vote including the law
charges, he wished to know whether it was true (as was
believed down at Devonport) that Mr. Foot, the law agent
of the department there, had been dismissed for having
voted against Mr. Tufntll, at the late election in the
borough.
Sir H. VIVIAN said the affair had nothing to do with
the Ordnance Department. The solicitor for the Ord-
nance, like every other solicitor, appointed his own agents
in the country, and had dismissed Mr. Foot—perhaps for
having been active at the late election.—(lronical cries of
" Hear, hear," from the Opposition.)
Sir H. HARDINGE said he did not like the transac-

tion. —( Hear, bear.) Was it to be endured that officers
connected with the Government were to dismiss at their
pleasure subordinate officers for political conduct—
( Hear, bear.) He had never in the slightest degree in-
terfered in the political proceedings of those under him
connected with the Government Departments.
Sir HUSSEY VIVIAN said that he had no doubt,
from all that he had heard, that Mr. Foot was a most
respectable man.
Mr. HUME thought it was a very important thing that
a man should not be punished for expressing his political
opinions. He agreed with the Gallant Officer opposite
that if there was a change of Ministry, the offices might
be swept out clean..—(Laughter.) But he thought the
best remedy would be to give to every person who was
entitled to a vote, the protection of the Ballot.--( Hear.)
Sir T. AC LAND assured the Hon. Member for Kil-
kenny, that he would not give his vote for the Ballot.—
( Cheers.) He thought the electors had a much better
pretection in the reprobation expressed by both Housea of
Parliament whenever a case of oppression came before
them.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. Foot had filled his office for
fifty-five years, and he had not been throughout that period
even complained of, until he was dismissed through Mr.
Hickman.
Sir H. VIVIAN did not believe that Mr. Foot ever
had any official station from which Mr. Hickman could
dismiss him.
Sir THOMAS ACLAND was still of opinion that the
gentleman had been unjustly treated, on account of his vote
for a Member to serve in that House, and that the cir-
cumstances called for inquiry.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON was sure that it would give

'1:so twe exhibited
great gratification to the country to learn that there pre-
vailed upon the opposite side of the House a feeling in
favour of freedom of election.—( Cheers and laughter.)
Having heard much of the oppressions to which electors
was almost led to hope that he should never again hear of
wwearrerusoulbjwebcitecbd,
would
dbebre foreraKdyilkteonnsuyp,
support
th
anytenants dispossessed and tradesmen ruined on account of
in
their votes.—(Cheers.) If he could not go to the length
wteNaodigbreyatthdeegureeen.coßnasoroleodet.by the
he
e
measure which would tend to give protection to the inde-
pendence of voters.--(Cheers and laughter.)
re-
spect".t h histo theo' .Ba Friendl
Sir THOMAS FREMANTLE thought that the
Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir H. Vivian) knowing the
complaint that was made against his Department in this
case, ought to have come down to the House prepared with
a more satisfactory explanation.
Col. SIBT HO RP, without entering at all into the
merits of the case, must be allowed, when he saw the Se-
cretary for Foreign Affairs so ready to stand up and accuse
Members of diseharging their tenants, to call the attention
of that Noble Lord and the House to what he witnessed
last night upon a division of great importance to the com-
mercial interests--he alluded to the motion of the Hon.
Member for Hull. Upon that he saw the Noble Lord, no
doubt feeling more for his own pocket than commercial in-
terests, stating how deeply he felt for the interests of the
country, and at the same time looking to the Hon. Mem-
ber for Hull, as much as to say, " Have mercy on us, for if
you carry this motion the Government will be overthrown."
Sir H. VIVIAN wished to answer the question which
had been put by the Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sit
Thomas Fremantle), as to why he had not come down
prepared to state the reason why Mr. Foot had been
dismissed. The reason was, because he had nothing
whatever to state to the House.
Sir H. HA RD ING E believed that this was the
case in which the Solicitor of the Ordnance had dis-
missed one of its officers without some professional inca-
pacity having been assigned. He wished to ask hi,
Right Hon. Friend whether this gentleman, Mr. Hickman,
had dismissed any other Ordnance Solicitor at any other
places. Had he dismissed them at Edinburgh and Dub-
lin ? He would venture to say that he had not. He
thought this gentleman, having served the Ordnance for
.55 years, ought to have some cause assigned for his dis-
missal.
Mr. TUFNELL wished to say a few words with regard
to what had been said by the Right Hon. Baronet oppo-
site, as to Captain Dundas being his (Mr. Tufnell's) right
hand man at the election. The fact was this, that Cap-
tain Dundas was there on Ordnance business, for two or
three days during the time of the canvass, which wa,
about two months' duration.—(Cries of " Oh, oh 1") II
was true that he had himself waited upon Mr. Foot, bu.
he believed no person on his behalf had done so
As to Mr. Foot himself, he could assure the House
that he entertained no resentment against him. With re-
gard to the influence of the Government in the borough,
he could assure the House it availed very little, and as
proof of that he might say that vi her. the votes of thus,
who were for and against him were looked into, of those
who were cousiderr d as influene,,d by the Government.
170 voted for him, and 150 for his opponent.—( Hear. )
He thought that would convince Hon. Members that n
undue influence had been exercised by the Government,
and that the majority who voted for him were the voters
of the town._( Hear, hear.) For his own part, he had
never heard a single complaint of the unjust interference
on the part of the Government in the borough, but in that
place he believed he might say that there appeared a dis-
position to attribute the removal of every officer unde.
Government to political causes.
E. KNATCEIBULL thought there was more in
this matter than appeared at first sight, and he was in-
duced to think so from the speech of the Noble Lord op-
posite He did not believe that the Noble Lord would
have made that speech, unless he thought there was some-
thing rotten in the case.—( Laughter.) He was glad,
however, that tie Hon. and Gallant Member for South
Staffordshire had stated that he was desirous that further
inquiry should take place.
Sir H. VIVIAN wished, in answer to the question
put to him by the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, as to
whether any other solicitors had been dismissed in any
other parts of the country by Mr. Hickman, to state that
he could not give him any information on the subject. Mr.
Hickman was the solicitor of the Ordnance, and had a
right to dismiss whom he pleased.
Mr. SHAW thought that it would be desirable to have
it ascertained whether the solicitor appointed by the Oed.
nance had the power to dismiss the solicitors connected
with that department in all parts of the country.
Sir DE LACY EVANS thought if inquiry was to be
instituted on the subject, it should be ascertained whether
the candidate on the other side did not hoist the union-
jack.
After a few observations from Sir J. Y. Buller, Lord
Worsley, and Sir H. Vernon, the vote was agreed to.
A rote of 2i0,000/. to defray the charge for Ordnance
Stores, was agreed to, as was also the vote of 158,647/.
to defray the chsrges of Superannuation Allowances.
' 285,636/. crag voted for Commissariat Szipplies,