The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-06 00:00:00

FEBRUARY G, 1847.

a storm and lost ; and that they were not captured or
murdei •ed by the inhabitants.

PENINSULAR MEDALS.

Sir ANDREW LEITH HAY wished to put a ques-
tion to the Secretary at War as to the steps which had
been taken to carry into effect her Majesty's gracious
intent ion of granting medals to the officers of the Penin-
sular• army. •

Mr. FOX MAULE said, that in carrying out the
gracious commands of her Majesty the details of the
measure had been attended with considerable diffi-
culty. He could assure the honourable Member,
and the House, who had expressed so strong a
feeling on the subject at the close of the last
s.essiov, that no unnecessary delay should take place in
conferring on those gallant officers the rewards which
her Majesty had been graciously pleased to appoint.
RUSSIAN DUTIES ON HERRINGS.

Sir ANDREW LEITH _HAY wished to put a ques-
tion to the Secretary for Foreign Affairs relating; to
the ditties levied in Russia and other countries on her-
rings exported from Great Britain ; he wished to know
whether it was the intention of that Government to
lower the rate of duties levied upon that article of
export?
Lord PALMERSTON said that each country regu-
lated its own tariff according to its own interests, real or
supposed, and it was a question in which other Govern-
ments ceuld not interfere. He regretted, therefore, that
he was not able at present to give any satisfactory answer
to the question of the Hon. Member.

prepared to take meesures this session to regulate the
public charities.
Sir GEORGE GREY-.stated that the qiiestion was
already under the consideration of the Lord Chancellor.
DESTITUTE PERSONS (IRELAND) ADVANCES
BILL.
On the order of the day for bringing up the report on
this Bill being read.
Lord CLEMENTS wished to call the attention of
her Majesty's Government to the Irish charities which
were at present lying dormant. He would name a few
of these charities. There was the Irish Peasantry So-
ciety and the British and Irish Ladies' Society, both of
which had received subscriptions to a very large
amount. The British and irisNLadies' Society had
received the sum of 12,300/. from the subscriptions
of 1822, when the last famine visited Ireland,
There was another society which had received sub-
scriptions to a similar amount. There was also a
handsome subscription collected in the :city of Dublin
by a society, which afterwards dissolved itself, leaving a
large balance in the Bank of Ireland. Now, these
funds could not be touched, unless by an Act of
Parliament, and when they were called upon for ad-
vances to meet the destitution which prevailed in Ire-
land, he wished her Majesty's Government to look
after the funds. One society, called the Repro-
ductive Society, had a large burn to their account.
He would not at present call the attention of the House
to the Destitute Persons' Bill, but he would say, that
there were divers provisions in that Bill which would
render it ineffectual, and still more difficult of management
Outlaw present system of public works. He had asked the
Chancellor of the Exchequer last night what Govern-
ment intended to do to provide employment, arid was
informed that it was proposed to do so by the Labour
Employment (Ireland) Bill. He did not know whether
Government was aware of whet would be required to
carry out that measure. There were 2,050 electoral
divisions in Ireland. They would also require a staff
for each of these electoral divisions. which would be
under the control of a central committee, of which the
Lord Lieutenant was the head. He thought that was
impracticable, and he would beg of her Majesty's Go-
vernment to reconsider that Bill. He gave the Govern-
ment full credit for sincerity, but he did not think this
measure practicable. It would be necessary to form new
districts throughout the land, and this would require
some persons of corsiderable local information. He did
not see that it. would be possible for the Lord Lieutenant,
with the machinery of the present Bill, to come to a
just decision. He had no objection to the names
of Colonel Jones, and Mr. Redington, and
Colonel M'Gregor being introduced as members of
the board, but it would be impossible fur them (were
they giving every attention to the measure, and he had
no doubt they would do so as far as iu them lay) to
superintend efficiently the working of an extensive
measure of this kind.
In answer to a question from Mr. WILLIAMS, in re-
ference to the way the funds would be advanced,
a The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
could only repeat what he had stated before. The ad
vances would be made from the Consolidated Fund ,
300,0001. was proposed now, and when more was re-
quired, he would come down to the House, and ask
them for a vote. The money would be voted from time
to time, us it was required-.
The-report was then brought up and received.
DESTITUTE RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
The order of the day for going into Committee upon
the Destitute Relief (Ireland) Bill was then read.
On the motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair,
Mr. MUTT rose and said that he was anxious to say
a few words on the subject of the distress in Ireland.
He entirely concurred with his Honourable Friend in
lamenting that the Government should have adverted to
the subject of emigration in somewhat disparaging terms,
lle lamented it the more, as he looked ueon it
as one—if not the only means— by which
the country could be rescued from the terrible
calamities which were impending over them—a—(lean)
There were in Ireland upwards of 1,500,000 heads of
families, who maintained themselves on the verge of
starvation, their wages varying from 2s. to 2s. ed. per
week, and a small portion of potatoes, land, whilst, in
order to give them the coarsest and cheapest bread, it
was necessary that they should have from 7s. to
Bs. per week. Seven shillings were scarcely
sufficient, and yet the whole rental of Ireland, which
was barely ten millions, was barely enough to support
them upon the grossest description of food. Even sup-
posing that every source of income was sunk, it e oald
not give more than seven shillings per week
to each of the labouring population of Ireland.
The fact was, that it was utterly impossible for Ireland
to meet the demand of its population, frdna the destruc-
tion of thepotetoe crop. Let them say what they might,
or do what they might, a poor-law giving a right to
out-door relief could never be carried into effect in Ire-
land—and for this reason, that the gross revenue from
the soil would be utterly insufficient for the destitution
which it would be called upon to relieve. The acreable
production of England was four times as
great as the acreable production of Ireland. Why
then, he would ask, did this disparity
exist? The soil of Ireland was met less fertile
than the:soil of England, perhaps it was more so. It could
not, therefore, be attributable to that cause. The riasan
he thought must be the indifferent system of agriculture
which existed in Ireland, and until an improvement
took place in this respect, he was afrAd that
this disparity would still exist. The minute
subdivision of the land in Ireland also
presented insuperable obstacles 'to improvement. He
found, by a report laid on the table of the House,
that the whole extent of Ireland was cut up into
small holdings of from one rood to ten acres. Now,
he would ask what sub soiling could take place, what
drainage could be made, or %%hat rotation of crops
could be put down under such a system ?
When the land was thus cut up into those miserable
shreds and patches, it was impossible to employ profit
ably either capital or labour. They found that the
farmers in England were more consolidated fur carrying
out improvements; but, in Ireland, the peasant culti-
vated his ground by himself and unaided. It required
fhur labourers mere, in Ireland, to raise the seine pro.
duce that would be raised by one labourer in England.
His plan was that there should be increased production
of the soil, which could be done only by more skilful
cultivation, which necessarily required that there should
be some consolidation of the miserable holdings in Ire-
land. He knew there were many opposed to such a
scheme, nor, he confessed, did he wish to see such ex-
tensive farms in Ireland as there were in this country.
He would wish the farms there to be of the size of whas
would be called moderate farms in this country. But
this plan would require the removal of cotters. Govern-
ment proposed two scheMes—the first to reclaim the
waste lands, the next to promote colonisation. The first,
certainly, would be beneficial. Colonisation, carried on
to a sufficient extent, would, by diminishing the demand
for food at home, which certainly would change favour-
ably some of the present relations between the land and
the occupier. There existed in the British colonies a
considerable demand fir labour; and ho could say, from
his own knorN ledge, that in the colony of South Aus-
tralia the ckapind for labour was at this moment intens:-..
Ile could assure the House that in the mining districts
there existed a demend for at least .5,000 heads of
families and those dependent on them; in addition, they
had a large territory in Polynesia, and he had ne doubt
that an equal lumber of labourers would be required
there, as the occupants of that land were equally in
want of assistance. He would not say what quantity of
emigrants might he sent to Canada, and the regulations
from the Colonial office; but of this fact he was quite
aware, that there existed, both at home and abroad, im-
mense means of providing food for generations yet to
come. Now then he came to the cost, and he was afraid
that this was a question which they would be compelled
to scrutinise very closely, what would be the cost then,
of an extensive system of home and foreign colonisation
to such an extent as would give a sensible lift to Ire-
land? The cost, he believed, to the Imperial Treasury
would be just nothing at all. He was sure that the
whole outlay would be repaid by the reclamation of
waste lauds, as well as from other sources.
lie had been one of the commissioners appointed by the
Crown to manage the colonisation of South Australia,
in which he was connected with a most worthy and phi-
losophic gentleman, Colonel Torrens. They had been
the means of partly laying the foundation of an impor-
tant and prosperous colony. In order to establish this
colony, they bad carried out 15,000 persons, and in the
course of a short time they had converted a forest and
a wilderness into the abode of an industrious and
thriving population.—(Hear, hear.) They had been
able not only to meet all their expenses, but had
realised 85,0001. The Government at the time granted
80,0001. for the security of the colonial revenue. This
sum had been since adopted by the Colonial Govern-
ment, and had been since liquidated by the revenue of
the colony. With such facts before the House, why
should not the same successful experiment be repeated
elsewhere ?—(Hear, hear.) In considering the question
of relieving the people, the House and the Government
should endeavour to carry out a systematic scheme
of colonisation on the principle which had been
found so successful in South Australia.—(Hear, hear.)
That unless we can get the means of feeding the popula-
tion of Ireland from the,soil, Ireland must continue to
be supported out of the purse of England and Scotland.
by means of the importation of corn. Ho believed the
people of this country to be as liberal and as generous
as any other people under the sun ; but he knew full
well that there were limits to their generosity, and he
was convinced that if the Government of this country
should find it necessary to apply again to Parliament for
anothsr grant they would find them in a state of alarm
and terror. He did, therefore, entreat her Majesty's
Government seriously to consider the question of emi-
gration, which he considered had been too lightly
weighed. He believed it to be the only means by which,
in the dreadful and unparalleled distress, they would be
enabled to rescue the property of Great Britain and Ire
land from confication, and the people from the horrors
of famine.

Sir GEORGE GREY desired to bring back the House to
the original question under discussion, which was with refer-
ence to a Bill framed in such a way as the Government had
thought right to meet the existing, the pressing, the daily dis-
tress which was now pervading the country. He hoped, there-
fore, the House would be allowed to go on with the considera-
tion of the Bill.

Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN (who was very indistinctly
heard) wished to press upon the House a proposition, for which
no Act of Parliament was necessary—for the Poor-law Com-
missioners possessed already full powers to carry it into effect,
and would do so, if they received proper instructions. He pro-
posed to make a general electoral division of the town lands,
consulting not only the population and the extent of the terri-
tory, but also the space which each individual pro-
prietor should have on the property of such town land.
He would not go into the whole aspect or political character of
centralisation, but if there was a country less fitted than an-
other for centralisation, it was Ireland. He now called upon
the House to give him its attention while he arraigned the two
great classes of Ireland against each other. They were called
upon to vote away millions for the relief of the distress in that
country. He would not say whether that was right or whe-
ther it was wrong, but the ever-recurring, never-ending ques-
tion was, what where they to do with the landlord, of Ireland?

There were continual accounts of a most different description
brought forward in that House. On one hand they were met
by cases of the greatest cruelty and selfishness, and on the
other by instances of the greatest self-denial, and the most
general philanthropy. The question they had to consider,
after they had passed these laws, and voted them millions, was
what they were to do with the Irish landlords. He would
have bad some difficulty in answering this question,
if he did not know, from his own knowledge,
that the Irish landlords were divided into two classes. There
were some of them who still clung to the most disgraceful prac-
tice of their class. There were others of them who looked for-
ward to a better state of things, and who were ready to do all
in their power to accomplish such an object. That House
was called upon to act with strict impartiality, and not
to interfere more than was actually necessary; but
they were called upon to show, by the opinions they
expressed, as to those who pushed the rights of property
to the extremest limits, and those who discharged their duties.
There could be no just objection to his plan, it would be for
the benefit of Ireland, and yet the Irish party were not in their
places. He had always found that those who ought to mist
them when a measure of this kind was prepared were the last
to do so.—(Hear, hear.) Now it was proposed to levy an
absentee-tax upon Ireland. Whatever might be the merits
of that tax, he must be allowed to say that at present it was
ill-timed. A measure wee before them for facilitating the,
transference of incumbered estates, and they were doing all
they could to induce English capitalists to invest their money
in Irish land, and yet what were the inducements held out by
the Irish party. Why, said they, We will do everything. to
facilitate the transfer of the land, and we most heartily wish
you success with it when you get it, but then you must be an
exile to your own land or pay an absentee-tax." What a
foolish policy was this? Why not let the English capitalist
invest hie money first, and then come down upon him with the
absentee-tax. Now, what he wanted the House to do was to
draw a distinction between the landlord who did his duty, and
the landlord who did not--to pass such a law that all the town
lands should share in due and proper proportions the burden of
maintaining the poor. What had been the whole tenor of the
debates this session. No difference had been made between
free-trader and protectionist, or 'Whig and Tory.
The whole course had turned upon one question bearing
upon the rights and duties of town lands, and in settling that
question he maintained that it was unfair to press heavily upon
the landlord, who did all in his power to improve his estate,
without calling upon the landlord who neglected his estate to
bear .an equal burden.—(Hear, hear.) Let them take as an
illustration of his position England and Ireland, and consider
them as two large towns. England was prosperous; and
flourishing—lreland was unhappy and destitute; and it was
unfair of Ireland, the English people said, to vest them with
the consequences of the misdeed of Ireland. It was unfair,
they said, to call upon them to relieve the sufferings of Ireland
because in times gone by she had neglected to improve her con-
dition, and allowed opportunities for becoming prosperous and
happy too, to slip by her.— ( Hear, hear.) He was not there to
say that these charges against Ireland were without foundation,
nor had he ever attempted to deny that the landlords of Ire-
Ireland had very much to answer for, but whether they had
done their duty or had not, if they took England and Ireland
separately, they must confess hat the whole force of the
debates during the present session had resulted into a great
townland question. The Right Hon. Gentleman had con-
stantly said to the landlords of Ireland, " Help yourselves."
The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Taenworth impressed
the same upon them, and not for the first time, the other night.
But they had also said if we make you help yourselves we
make you help your neighbours also. All be asked was, that
they should separate the good from the bad landlords. There
were many landlords in Ireland who wished to sympathise
with the people, and to lend their best exertions to carrying
out the most comprehensive measures of benefit. It was
by strengthening the hands of the good land- -
lords that they would be able to carry out and
establish such beneficial laws.—( Hear.) It must be
well known to any one acquainted with the Irish people that
mere law of itself, as passed by that House, had little power
on the people of Ireland. To remove them from that want of
allegiance should be the duty of all who took upon themselves
to direct the affairs of the country, whether in that House or
acting in their own country as guardians. From his know-
ledge of Ireland, and his acquaintance with the .
feel-
ings and charac'er of the people, and from the know.
ledge he possessed of this country, he would repeat again
that these laws could not operate as efficiently as the means
he had devised. Moral influences, ancestral influences, and
aristocratic influences, had more power over the Irish peep?)
than any law passed by that country. Seting a motion of risi-
bility on the other side, he must explain that aristocratic in-
fluence in Ireland had nothing to do with rank. It was the
influence of the landlord over his tenantry when he did his
duty. All he stated was to show the necessity he contended
fur of making a distinction between the good and the bad land-
lord. If they preserved the present system, you inflict on the
good landlord the punishment due to the bad landlord. lie
repeated that this distinction was warranted, for the existence
of the different classes was known to all those familiar with
Ireland. It was not, perhaps, known to that House the many
acts of kindness which the recent circumstances of the country
called forth between landlord and tenant. How many disture
bailees had been crushed, how many unlawful characters had
been reclaimed, how many evils had been soothed, in a word,
how much of kindness, and how much of heartfelt gratitude.,
—( Hear, hear.) Under these circumstances, he was sorry t°
see on the part of Government a desire, instead of diminishing
the area of territorial division to increase' it by the did'
sions proposed. It was not his intention then to enter opan
the discussion of the Labour Rate Act—(Hear, hear)
—but it was admitted to be, pro tanto, a
an
lity. Now that Act was going on still, at.
another Act was coming in, which was the reason why
called the attention of the House to both Bills. The Govern-
ment said they were determined to proceed with the unLO
rate instead of the electoral rate, they would injure retP7:
than serve the country. He would oppose to the utmost,l;
its every stage, with all the pertinacity which the forms of the
House permitted, the extension of taxation—that, he WO
not say dangerous, unjust, but fatal measure:
he
Mr. LABOUCHERE said he should not trespaca ont
ees
attention of the House, now that it was going into
Cf nintleman
but considering the importance of what the lion- -c
observe-
had said, that it was due to the House to make a few
witt
Cans before the Speaker left the Chair. The
question raisedby the Hon. Gentleman was not a new question. It had been
urged upon his (Mr. Labouchere) attention by those to whom
he was bound to pay the greatest deference and respect,
namely, landed proprietors, magiatrates, and Members of the
Government ; but the more he heard, the more necessary he
considered it to weigh carefully the very important principle
involved in this question, and the more necessary it was
for Government to proceed with caution in deliber-, •
sting upon it. Still they felt they would not be
doing their duty to the people of Ireland, if they did not con-
sider this question. The Hon. Gentleman had put forward
this principle more clearly and strt rgly than it had ever yet
been expressed. Its proposition was simply this—that to
provide for the distresses of Ireland it was necessary to deal,
not with committees, but with individuals.—(Hear, hear.)
It was admitted by deputations which he had received, that the'
proprietors were willing to contribute largely, and to cuter
into the system of electoral districts, and thus to give employ
ment to a considerable extent ; but they would do so upon the
condition of being allowed to employ those to whom
they gave labour on their own estates. There were,
certainly, great objections to that ; they occurred to
him then, and he urged them ; hut he would not
now repeat them. What was the fact ? There were 2,050
electoral districts in Ireland, occupying from ten to fifteen
thousand acres each, which certainly was an extent sufficient
to induce co-operation for good. The question proposed to
deal with private property—Hon. Gentlemen said, would yon:
deprive the proprietors in Leland of all motives of taking care,
of their own property, and providing for the distresses of their
own poor. He did think it certainly wrung to make those
divisions so large as to prevent their taking care of the poor on
their estates. But then to restrict the principles so far as to
say, that they should enforce upon them the duty of taking
care of any section of poor, merely from the
fact of their being resident in a certain district,
this was not the principle of any poor-law in the
world with which he was acquainted. It certainly was not a
principle of the law of England. It belonged to no country,
and was merely a remnant of serfdom and a principle of feudal-
ism. It was to him a great objection that it was a feudal
principle, and such a principle as he considered to be wholly
inapplicable to Ireland or to England in the year 1847.--
( Clear, hear.) But even if the principle were adopted it
would be found that it would be utterly impracticable to carry
out the details. If they had 60,000 town lands to manage--
if they had separate machinery for each of these, or suppose
they had only one-half or even one-fourth of those it would be
utterly and absolutely impracticable to carry it into effect. ,
But he would not go into that, as he held that the
arguments he had already stated were utterly unanswerable.
He would take the case of a man possessed of large property,
and he would suppose him to be called upon to support all the
poor who might be located on his land, he asked, was not such
a principle wholly inadmissible ? He held that it would be o
discouragement to the improvement of property, and would
produce in many cases, monstrous injustice. He must also say
that the plan of the Hon. Gentleman was utterly imprac-
ticable
in the case of towns. The principle of division into
townlands would throw an intolerable burden on towns and large
villages. When he came, therefore, to the conclusion which
he did, he assured the Honourable Gentleman that it was not
without great deliberation and examination of the subject—it
was not without consulting the most intelligent people, who
were able to form an opinion, and considering the huddled and
crowded state of the population, as well as the general condi-
tion of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He held then, that the
townland, as the unit of taxation, would work the must
monstrous injustice, for while some proprietors would be en-
tirely exempted from burdens which of right belonged to them,
others would be crushed by the weight of what they were not in
justice entitled to bear.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. S. O'BRIEN observed that he never said that town'
lands should be the unit of taxation.

Mr. LABOUCHERE said that if they left the principle
of electoral districts, the next lower division to which they
mmt come, as the unit of taxation, was townlands: This
principle, he asserted, was not applicable to a free people; but
to a population in a state of serfdom. It was a feudal prin-
ciple, and one which he never could recognise or support.--
( Hear, hear.) He thought the Hon. Gentleman had very
much underrated the advantage of electoral districts over
townlands in another point of view, namely, the advantage of
co-operation and mutual support. The Honourable -Gen-
tleman himself might be in a condition to speak
of this from his own experience, but he (Mr. Labouchere)
could state thst it had been productive of the greatest good-
The relief committees which had been established had been
the means of bringing those together wl.o never met before.--
( Hear, hear.) The priest and the Protestant rector—the
landlord, the tenant, and the cess-payer— men of different
weeds, and of different politics, were brought to act together,
to know one another, to appreciate one another, and to reci-
procate the advantages of mutual assistance.—(Hear, hear.)
He saw tha!, during the last autumn, and he was of
opinion that it had tended very much to the ad-
vantage of Ireland. He tholght, therefore, that there
principle of working by communities, instead of by town-landet
would in the present measure be much the preferable course;
that it would be the most effective way to support Parliament •
to assist the Government, and to carry out that measure which
would require the aid of them all to realise the benefit which

was intended by it. These advantages he believed would re-
sult from the division into electoral districts. He would not
then go into the question, whether electoral districts or union%
were preferable, bat he could assure the Honourable
Gentleman, that her Majesty's Government would approach the
consideration of the subject with the greatest care. - The
question, however, was not whether they would make the
electoral divisions larger, but whether they would make them
smaller—whether they should proceed by electoral d:stricu or
by towniands. He had given his reasons why he eonsideren
the former the preferable mode, and he believed the greatest
evil would result if it was not adopted. If any gentleman were
again disposed to raise the question, he would have an oppor-
tunity of doing so on a future occasion ; hut he hoped that, in
the meantime, the Bill would be allowed to proceed.
After a few words in explanation from Mr. STAFFORD
O'BRIEN,
Mr. MORE O'FERR AL believed that the subject pas one
which called for the most deliberate consideration from any
ce u-
Government, and one on which English Members_ Weir_r.P
!lady fitted to give an opinion. His Hon. Friend
which
bouchere) appeared to him to confound two thin
nisd to the pro
posed to the Poor-rate Act of last session, a
d to. the
perfectly distinct—the division into electoral dgstricts as ap-
L
posed Poor-law. Ile (Mr. F. Manic) was QPP°Se 3 •
they made i
were
top and his reason was, because .
landlords of Ireland when the appthliecaticosnperuenierrea •