The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-20 00:00:00

~laiitte
e and Council named some one, to ahom tin
Archbishop had no objection. Such was tae state of the
o
iCeicel when the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (the
mber for Tamworth) came into power, and no change
teas made by him with respect to the appointment of the
loMtaittee of Council Those who had been Ministers
` the Crown immediately ceased to be Members of the
Council• The Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir Robert
e."), Lord Stanley, Sir James Grahtni, became Mom-
ust of the College, and Lerd Wharneliffe being Presi
haid of the Council, became head of the Committee.
lucre than one conversation with the late Lord
Wharneliffe on the subject, as I was connectee
end
ever have been with the British and
to nen School Society. And he consulted me from tine(
dine as to what should be the relations between tine
is= and the board. Ho proposed that a sum 01
wiere should be granted—the proposition emanated
: 4 former Government—for the purpose of a normal
°°i• I advised them to accept that grant of the
inresittee, At a subsequent period Lord Whareclitte
kertned the secretary of that society that he should
set the same rule with regard to it as had been
%,,,"11:ed to the national schools, but that he should not
tifNunt the inspector without their concurrence. The
soy did- not, according to their orders, male
.1" examination as to religious instruction. Sir, the
17414 t continued to be made in this form, and various
ere! were granted which from time to time were in
,-;:seed, until it reached the sum of 100,0001., and that
ni was granted, without any discussion of importance
etatiel Place. When, however we come to consider the
tors, If education, it appeared to us, as a very great
1 4°6l' of schools had been built, that there was no
b°,4l,er such a demand for money for the purpose or
I,,ta'ea,ing schools. The system of monitors has been
ti`nisiled by Lancaster and Bell, but it did not answer
olos,factorily on account of the early age at which the.
oeuren left school, so that a boy who had only a years'
iteeeation himself was a very unfit person to teach well,
,jeu give the proper comprehension of the subject of
eeeation to a school. It was therefore proposed that
pteue ertain sum should be allowed in each school for the
still:K/3e of inducing a boy to remain some years in
t,„_°ol, till he thereby became an efficient teacher. It
set' proposed, likeeise, that when the masters gave
Leen. time to training of the pupil teachers, and render-
oeg there efficient in their duties, that there should be a
totsteaill sum of money as an allowance made
eCe,nl- It was proposed with regard to some other
outs in •
tete which there were not monitors and pupil
ners, that there should at once be established
monitors,do, who likewise received a sum of money to in-
di them
to remain at school. These became stipen-
trY Monitors, and there should be an allowance made
o 4
o Masters training and teaching/ these stipendiary
mtutors. It was proposed likewise with a view to the
provement of the normal schools, and for the better
_lastentation of those resorting to those schools, that a
rin of money should be granted for the purpose of pay-
ing those pupils who should be most promising, and who
should be recommended by the inspectors of te school,se.
of
ftsether with those who were at school, for the purp o
being trained in normal schools, and that there should
DO an augmentation of the salaries of the masters of
schools who had been trained, and who should obtain a
certificate of proficiency. There should be a certain
s
tit of money likewise for the encouragement of proper
rwho and workshops, which has to those persons,
ti have taken an interest in education, been at various
,Pes a very desirable object. It has been always my
;Lie* that the only way efficiently to raise the educatioa
this countrywill be to raise the condition and pros-
pects of the schoolmasters. It has been my view, often
and
oft often expressed in this House, whether in or out of
orirec, that the drudgery of schoolmasters was not suffi-
to:llY rewarded, and leading to no prospect of advan-
e,:rei it WILS such that men of talent and abilities who
De! trained to that purpose, cannot but leave it in a
Profitable t
number of instances for other and more
Wh• 'able occupations. Such has been the view
Leh
g have not only taken myself but which
It itul confirmed by that of others.—(Ffear, hear.)
11/ °f immense importance that these schools should
ed
sups efficient teachers, and that there should be some
toruniment or reward given ; the latter more commen-
surate with the great duties which they had to perform.
There is another proposition which I shall have to make,
it net that
any grant will be wanted for it this year, but
for be required, in all probability, next year—it is
kftithe
that been
Purpose of pensioning off those schoolmasters who
worn out in the service. No one can deny
ele,eesel,_t is highly important for us to do all in our power to
the character and position of the schoolmasters.
eeelleitte ,enly surprised that so far from the country
see-leasing itself alarmed at the minute of Council, it
well have exclaimed—" What, is this all ? it is
"phi ese far, but it is not equal to meet the evil
e" is complained of. It ought to be a larger and a
lFearer Plan." Sir, I have said before, that I have not
e reeled anything but what has been settled on for
etly ye
Ztieft, know,d repeatedly referred to. It has been
that this is an unconstitutional body
e_en.makes the grant; but to that I will answer, that
rter not think any course can be more constitutional
out.snyor Ministers to come forward with an explanation
po,That they intend to do, and to depend on a vote of
si4lrnsent for the grant. The question now is the
not ass in 1839, when first brought forward. I did
sDanticipate such objections, least of all from those who
e e rought forward this opposition, viz., the various
the sting ministers of London, and the various bodies
tta tOeout
set country, who applauded the Government
cheeme‘ouhey adopted in the year 1839.—(Loud
of co'„ I trust, therefore, that the Committee
"neil will not be considered as so
formidable au evil as it was once supposed to be.
that lar' hear.) I am not, Sir, going to discuss
to •arge question at the present moment. I wish
Point the attention of the House to how far these ar-
gutoents are endeavoured to be applied. Sir, it is im-
PoSsible not to see the drift of those arguments. Sir, it
is again said that there is sufficient already done for edu-
elttion, that there is no need of any further assistance;
that the people of England are as educated, or if not so
completely educated at present, they are in the way to
be so completely educated, that it would he superfluous
for the legislature to interfere. I wish that I could cen-
uur in that representation of the case. I wish I could say
that the voluntary efforts had done so much,
.and that the education of the people was so complete,
that we need not trouble ourselves here with the matter,
Which I confess is one of great difficulty, and one which
cannot be touched without exciting the feelings of
Many opposing persuasions. The case is, however, far
otherwise. I will not, Sir, attempt to go into minute
statistics as to what has already been done upon this
.übjsct, but I feel that Hon. Members of this House who
have paid any attention to the subject, or who have read
the▪ Pamphlet upon this subject, or who hav attended to
Zile education in their own neighbourhood— e (Cheers)—
014 must see that the education of the people of this
country is lamentably deficient. Upon this subject I
Will take the statements of one of the opponents of this
measure. I regret deeply that he should be one of its
°PPouents, because his learning, his zest for the public
D.
(1, and his piety, render him deserving of the respect
of every person—l mean Dr. Vaughan. That gentle-
-• 4e,, in an article published in the British Quarterly
se:evieie, and which has since been Fable lied with his
and Wales,
that of the whole population of England
,*„11 Wales, between the ages of five and fifteen, found
-0," day Schools, the proportion would be somewhat less
;is" one-third, about an cqual number in the Sunday
„see—"°°ls, and the remaining third not found in any schools
h esY, evening, or Sunday. Statements of a similar nature
eale been made by Dr. Houk, and other persons who
have devoted considerable time and attention to the cau,e
of education, and all concur in agreeing, in opposition
et° the statements of Mr. Baines, that the education of
, 'le country is extremely defective.—(Hear, hear.) This
statement does not, however, rest upon statements of
this sort. It will be found, by a reference to the mar-
riage_ registers, that there are forty out of every 100
married who cannot write their names—thirty in every
100 who cannot read.—(Hear, hear.) This, we
must own, is an immense proportion, when we
consider that the schools of Bell and Lancaster
have been established now for upwards of forty years,
and that voluntary education has been ever since that
time doing its utmost to overtake and subdue this amount
or ignorance. In a report furnished by some inspectors
who were sent down to inspect and report upon the state
of education in schools belonging to the voluntary esta-
blishment, it is stated that there are great numbers of
Persons who are not in the habit of attending any place
of public worship, and to whom the name of God and
Christ was utterly unknown. Not many years since I
referred to the statement of a chaplain of one of the
county gaols, I have lately consulted again the report of
that gentleman ; he is a person who has taken the
greatest pains to inform himself of the condition of the
persons brought into that place, and in that report he
states that during his three years' stay at that place the
performance of his duties has brought him into contact
with 1,733 men and boys, and 387 women and girls; and
of these the majority could neither read or write, and
were also ignorant of the name of God and of Christ,
and of such things as virtue or vice, holiness or heaven.
There was a case, Sir, in which some of the boys be-
longing to a school were desired to read that chapter of
St. Matthew's Gospel containing an account of " the
Marriage in Cana in Gallilee," who were utterly unac-
quainted with the meaning of the word marriage. With
respect to the secular education of a number of prisoners
in one of the gaols, it was reported by the inspectors
that there were 90 persons unable to name the months
of the year, 104 unable to tell the name of the reigning
Sovereign, 108 who could rot define the meaning of the
terms virtue or vice, and a number of persons who were
unable to count as high as 100. Sir, I confess it ap-
Pears to me a very shocking thing that education is not,
given to these persons until they are sent to the gaol.—
(Hear, hear.) There are many occasions in which pri-
soners had been induced to bless the day in which they
head been sent to prisons, because they have after their
eischarge conducted themselves in a respectable manner
sad earned as honest livelihood. But, Sir, is it not
nesirable that before the people reached that place
they should, while young, while impressions
can be. easily made upon them, be instructed
in their knowledge, and in their duties. One of the
!blest opponents of this proposition was recently speak-
ant against it at a public meeting in this metropolis, and
0n that occasion some one in the body of the meeting put
Z oitihnigs:_ha2d the following question, which he gave in
Is it not better to put a sign post at the be-
aislining of a man's life than a gibbet at the end of it?"—
Wear, hear, and loud cheers.) I will not, however,
omit the remark made on that occasion by the speaker,
the
Rev. Mr. Burnet, who asked with a readiness which
he so well can command," What if the sign-post led to
-* the gibbet?"—(Hear, and a laugh.) I admit that it was
a Clever answer, and one well calcalated to catch the
meeting, but I must remark that there is nothing in the
ten which I propose, and which shall be laid before the
fatootehTlainyifnugll—a plan calling upon the House to agree
out of money for the purpose of aiding the
-"heels of the Established Church, of the schools of the
P„ g congregations, of the British and Foreign
es,e'iss and of the Wesleyans..which could justify
•14' au is min t tin Elastic AM is t 0

There will be the same number of officers ; and,
instead of these appointments being given to
those who say " they are quite sure that
the gentleman they recommend is a staunch political
adherent "—(Roars of laughter)—that he, besides that,
" reads and writes very well, and keeps accounts very
well," and that he is in all respects well qualified to fill
the office which they seek to obtain for him—(Continued
laughter.) Now they will merely say " that he reads
and writes very well, that he keeps accounts well, and
that he has been religiously brought up," omitting alto-
gether the political part of the subject—(Cheers and
laughter)—so that the assertion that this is a great
scheme to increase Government patronage is a most idle
apprehension.—(Cheers.) Sir, with regard to one
point, which is indeed touched upon in this resolution,
and which I am aware, entails very great hardships on
those who attend many of the Church schools
of this country, as there is a refusal to
parents to allow their children to come to
these schools unless they will learn the cate-
chism, and attend the school and the church on Sundays.
—(Hear, bear)—with regard to that rule, we neither
promote nor encourage it. If we had made it a condi-
, don on any of those grounds, that any of those funda-
mental rules on which the schools are conducted, should
be departed from before they should receive aid from the
State, we should lose the advantage of having such
schools well instructed and conducted as they are at
present. But for my part, I cannot but think that die
Church itself will gain a great advantage by allowing
parents to send their children to these schools without
insisting upon the children learning either the catechism
or being required to attend Church on Sundays.
—(Hear, hear.) I believe that the rule of the
Wesleyan body is this :—that it allows the parents to
educate their children according to their own religious
convictions ; and that I think is the best and at the same
time the most charitable rule, as it tends materially to
diminish that ill-feeling which might otherwise be en-
gendered. I shall receive with pleasure any improve-
ment upon the rules to be adopted in the schools with
respect to these things. Ido not think that this grant
of 100,0001., of which a part will go to the dissenting
bodies, would entitle the Crown to exercise an undue
influence over voluntary societies. I say again, I should
like to see a change with respect to the rule adopted
in the schools in connexion with the Church ; and
I say further, that if any body of Dissenters are
willing to send their children to the Church schools, but
which t hey are prevented from doing, by the existence of
this rule, I think that would be an additional reason for
granting aid to that place, in order that a school might
be opened where all the children of the town or village
might attend.—(liear, hear.) But, Sir, the question is
the scheme, being—as I will admit it is—very imperfect
in many respects. The question is whether you will
not, in any way, try to combat the evil which Dr.
Vaughan describes in terms which I will now read.—
(The Noble Lord then read an extract from a letter by

aided and encouraged by the proposal is such as
could lead to the e,ibbet. (Hear, hear, hear, and
cheers.) Another course has la en taken in oppo-
sition to this measure, by a gentleman whom I
regret to see opposed to the plan before
the House. The amount of that gentleman's
argument is this—that there is a certain
class of people in this country which is found in con-
nexion with vice and crime, with ignorance arid brutal
sensuality; and in that corelition the people must be left.
For them no means of education are to be provided
Ininrisenment, transportation, and the gallows are for
them, but none of the milder means of religion or know-
ledge. Sir, I never can consent to such a proposition as
this. lam not disposed to entertain extravagant opi-
nions upon the subject, nor do I suppose that vice will
ee effectually overcome, but still I trust that the number
'nay be diminished, and that not only the path of duty,
but the path of worldly advantage, point to education ;
And I hope that by this means many may be rescued
from the hands of crime and misery, and we should
then have the happiness of saying that we had performed
the duty incumbent upon ui, and we can with better
conscience and mere satisfaction to ourselves, say
to the criminal that the punishment which the laws
inflicted upon him we had endeavoured to avert
is far as in us lay, and that we would have led you to
the paths. of virtue, and it is not by our law that
you have come to this disgrace and punishment.—
(Cheers.) With ro-pect to some objections urged
against the particular plan before the House, I cannot
help saying, that I think there is considerable force in
them; but still, although the measure is not 'exactly
what we might wish, still it must be borne in mind that
we had to deal with a great number of existing schools,
which already occupied the ground ; and which,
according to their own system, ought to impart educa-
tion in the way that seemed to them the most likely to
produce the desired result. I must confess that I think
the measure would have been better had it pro
meted a more general system of education, and
one in which both the children of the members
of the Church and those of Dissenters might have joined.
The first of these in point of numbers and amount is the '
National Society, in connexion with the Church of Eng-
land. There are more than 900.000 day scholars in
their schools, and the amount of their funds is very large.
The rule in all these schools is, that the liturgy and the
catechism shall be taught, and there is likewise a neces-
sity that all th- children shall go to the Established
Church on Sunday. They have now relaxed with re-
gard to the rule, and leave it to the managers of the
schools. But we had to consider, in 1839, whether we
ought to have attempted to spread over the country one
general system of education, and one that did not agree
with the British and Foreign School Society and the
Dissenters. It would have been very unwise to have
made such an attempt in 1839 as now, and Idu not think
that the prejudice which existed against it would act
otherwise than to create division, and eventually failure.
We said that in 1839, with regard to the Church schools,
they were warn according to their own vie Ns, and that we
would not interfere with religious instruction in any
other way than that the Church inspecters appointed by
the Privy Council should visit the schools and report as
to the kind and degree of education given. With respect
to the other schools, we stated that we would not inter-
fere with respect to the religious instruction given in
them, but with regard to the secular part of the instruc-
tion—that the inspectors should report upon it and upon
the state of the schools and their etli.:ieney. Now, Sir,
the rule adopted in 1839 with respect to the building of
schools, and adopted now with respect to the educa-
tion of the pupil teachers and stipendiary monitors in
Church schools, is, that there shall be an exami
nation of the pupils in the Church catechism and
the liturgy, but in schools not connected with the church
of England no examination of that kind is t,) take place
except as to the secular branches of learning. We con-
fine our examination to the secular branches of learn-
ing. It seems to me exceedingly strange that there are
many persons who agree with me that education ought
to receive some assistance from the State by a grant of
public money—agreeing with me that it is not sufficient
that voluntary efforts should be made—agreeing with me
that the state of crime calls for some effort on the part
of the Government—and yet say that these rules con-
tain such a violation of the liberty of conscience, that
they cannot assist or even partake of any grant pro-
ceeding from such a source. Yet these are the same parties
who in 1839 consented that schools should be built from
public money in the proportion of 18s. 6d. to the pound, and
that in the schools the liturgy and catechism of the Church
of England should be used I own that I cannot under-
stand the nice distinction which these persons make on
this occasion; for be it observed it is not a
a question in which the Church of England arrogates to
itself the power of superintending the instruction of the
people. All that the Church of England asks is this,
that in her schools—schools raised by the Church of
England, and built by members of her communion, that
her liturgy and catechism should be taught. It seems
to me to be a scheme not of a compulsory nature, but
one in perfect accordance with religious liberty, and
with which Dissenters ought to be satisfied. If, indeed,
the Church subscribed a much larger amount than the
Dissenters, then of course they would be entitled to a
larger share of public grant. But that was not a differ •
ence in principle, but one which arose from its prac-
tical operation. Ido not, therefore, see why the Dis-
senters should refuse to acquiesce in this grant in con-
sequence of part of the money going to the
schools of the Church of England. This is
not the whole of State education. It is only
in aid of voluntary effort.—(Hear, hear.) We
take the schools exactly where they are situated. We
find the schools existing in the respective localities. We
impose upon them no terms which are not in accordance
with the rules which are established for their manage-
ment. To say, then, that the State should not under-
take the education of the whole people might be an
owas proposed,
ob
rosposeined.o,even but
eint
ifwasa
s applicablench a thingtthe
present
large
amount of public money was to be devoted to it.
(Hear, hear.) Sir, it is said that some other better
scheme of education might be proposed which would 'be
more to the purpose—that it would be better to confine
ourselves to secular education—and, with regard to reli-
gious education, not to interfere, but to leave ie to the
ministers and religious instructors of the various de-
nominations. As far as I understand Dr. Vaughan, he had
no objection to assist the Church of England schools or
those of the voluntary societies ; but he would have the
inspecters of the State take no notice of the religious
instruction of toe pupils. Now, that is nearly the same
thing as we are proposing to do, and 1 think that this is
rather a distinction without a difference. But
there are others who speak of a secular
education, and who mean very differently—a school
was to be e,tablished by the State, and he sch )01--
master a State officer, and to have nothing to
do with the communication of religious instruction,
which was to be left to the respective ministers of the
parents of the chil Iren. This view was brought for-
ward by the Hon. Nlenaher tor Bath some years age.
but to suen a scheme I have the most decided objection.
T. omit altogether the inculcation of religious duties, to
omit the srecept of th love of God and the love of
their neighbour, would be in my mind a great, a se
rious, and an irreparable loss. I think no advantage
of uniting the yarn:us religious sects, would compen-
sate for this apparent declaration on the part
of the State, that secular education alone would
absorb its attention to the exclusion of religious instruc-
tion. Ido not think that this would be found to operate
well, and I likewise do not believe that from the manner
in which the time of the children of the labouring poor
is occupied, you could impart to them in this way a
sufficient amount of religious instruction. In addition
to this, I think it is a scheme which would not be accept.
able to the people themselves,—(Hear, hear)—and I am
of opinion they would be likely to confound such a
scheme with irreligion.—(Hear, hear.) They would be
wrong, I,admit, in that interpretation of it; but still, no
explanation or evidence which might be given them to
the contrary would be so strong as to overpower and
put an end to that feeling. The question, therefore, I
have to ask the House is whether, considering the various
difficulties with which this question is surrounded, it is
prepared to go with us in giving a grant of money to be
disposed of according to the Minutes of the
Privy Council, or whether it will go with the
Honourable Gentleman the Member for Finsbury
and propose against us a vote of censure.—(Hear, hear.)
But, Sir, before I sit down I wish to direct the attention
of the House to one or two other points, which I think
deserve some notice ; and, in the first place, with re-
gard to the claims of the Roman Catholics. Now, Sir,
with respect to that subject I have to say that, in the
minutes of August and December, 1846, it never arose.
There were certain rules laid down in conformity with
the original intentions of the Privy Council, and to these
only was their attention directed. By these minutes it
was settled that no school should receive a grant for
education unless the Scriptures were lead daily in it.
If, however, the Catholics had a desire to establish
schools, and, for my own part, I should be glad of such
an intention, I think the greatest caution is requisite in
drawing up minutes by which grants to such schools
should be authorised. I do not think it would do to
have monastic schools, or schools where Protestant
children would not have an opportunity of reading the
Bible. That schools should not be established open
to this objection, I am not prepared to say, but I see
no reason why that difficulty should be raised now.
Although ball a million of money has been expended in
education under the superintendence of the Privy Coun-
cil, not a shilling bad gone to a Roman Catholic school.
I therefore see no reason why such an objection
should be raised now, unless for the purpose of
throwing a stumbling-block in our way.—(hear, hear.)
Such being the character of our proposal, and the diffi-
culties being so great with regard to any other plan, I
ask the House if there is any reason for instituting an
inquiry as to " whether the regulations attached thereto
do not unduly increase the influence of the Crown, in-
vade the constbutii teal functions of Parliament, and
interfere with the religious convictions and the civil
rights of her Majesty's subjects." I have already, I
think, sufficiently touched on the constitutional points
of the subject, and shown that this plan will not in-
terfere with the constitutional rights or religious feel.
ings of her 'Majesty's subjects ; and as regards the
influence of the Crown, I thought that this influence
was rather diminished than increased by the plan pro-
posed. As regards the stipendiary monitors and masters
of schools, the grants will be made on the reports of in-
spectors appointed by different administrations, and no
schoolmaster, after seven or eight years, when he has
attained his majority, will feel himself bound to give his
vote in favour of the views of any minister because he
had previously received portions of the grant at the re-
commendation of the inspectors. With regard to the
other marks of esteem to the monitors who may not be
appointed schoolmasters, such as employing them in dif-
ferent branches of the public service, cis a suggestion
which was made in this House, I bell this
eve by the present
Secretary of State for the Colonies,
when the Right
Honourable Baronet opposite was in office, and when
Lord Grey was i
n opposition, so that it was
sot brought forward with an intention ' • of "
in-
alioing the iiiihnue. Crnillerateraq

the Rev. Gentleman, stating that the children of the poor
were growing up in ignorance and poverty ; and that
unless thee evils were obviated that they would become
a source of clang, rto the State.—(Hear, hear.) I own,
Sir, I cannot but consider after reading that passage and
feeling impressed with its truth, that any one should be
an opponent to this system of education.—(dear, hear.)
On my own part, seeing the evil is great, I am not dis-
posed to wait till I can get a more perfect scheme. I
am disposed rather to feel my way—to proceed as well
as we can—until at length we may find that there is
seine scheme which possesses a higher claim to be con-
sidered, as one which will promote, in a greater degree,
the intelligence of the people of this country, and on
which those of diff rent persuasions will unite and emu-
late each other in rendering them most conducive to the
cultivation of the people—then I shall be happy to en-
courage a scheme of educati, in which will meet with
the concurrence or those different denominations. In
the meantime, all I ask you fur are these means—inade-
quate as they are—with the view, in some degree, to
dispel that ignorance—in some degree to promote religion
and virtue among a great mass of the people. When I
ask you to do so, I am well aware of the opposition which
this scheme has met with—well aware that it would
have been easier to have shrunk from the task, and not
have asked this House to grant anything more than the
millions upon millions which already have been granted
to the military forceseaf this country; it would been easier
to have said, " Let us have the usual millions which
you have voted from time to time for the army, and
navy, and for the ordnance ; but we will not ask for a
single farthing for the purposes of education." But,
Sir, that would not hare been consistent with the duty
which we feel pressing upon us—to improve as far as in
us lies, the school teaching in this country—to'assist, as
far as in us lies, in giving a knowledge of the ways of
virtue and knowledge—of the truths of religion to many
of the uninstructed masses of this country ; and be the
opposition what it may—however formidable it may be
at this moment—however formidable it may be—and
I lament to say, that such is the case,. and that
the proposition has withdrawn from us the aid
and support of many who " through good and
evil report" have supported our political mea-
sures—be these evils what they may, it will be
a consolation to me to know that I have made an attempt
to diminish the empire of ignorance, and to raise the
people of this conntry in the scale of virtue and religion,
so that they may take a high and enviable position
amongst the people of all the nations of the world.
—(The Noble Lord resumed his seat amidst loud cheers.)
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE then rose, but owing to the
noise which prevailed occasioned by many Members
leaving the House, the commencement of his observa-
tions were not very distinctly heard. He said, no one
could be so unreasonable as to blame the Noble Lord
for the course he had adopted on the present occasion,
because he believed he was conscientiously discharging
his duty ; but, during the twenty-oi,e years he had the
honour to have had a seat in that House,-he did not re-
colleet a Prime Minister of the country ever paying so
great a compliment as to notice an individual Member
of that House, particularly so humble a Member as him-
self, and to condescend, and if possible, prejuiico the
minds
the
~:rride,m;:onifbioi
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his
l placed
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otniie them motionait)tae w
he
prear.nh,ih,crridtre anp(poikr.
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country
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The i
Nn
Ilia consoloabbtyi was that these apprehensions
Noble Lord
r.j ord thousands,
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l u t
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~
a vote of censure on the Government, and a want of con-
fidence in her Maj sty's Privy Council. If he chose to
adopt it as a vote of censure, he must do so; but if he
asked him if he had any confidence in the Council—
or rather in the Committee of the Privy Council, that
self-elected tribunal who were to be intrusted
with the carrying out of that scheme—in that tribunal
he had no confidence whatever. However the great
question involved in the motion miebt suffer in his
hands. yet he did feel confident that if the motion failed
it would not fail because there was anything in the re-
quest he was about to make that was unconstitutional,
or at variance with Parliamentary usage, or the practise
of that House; but if the motion failed, he felt that it
would tail in consequence of the inability which any
individual—an independent Member of that House—
must have in coping with that Ministerial influence
which he knew had been and was to be brought to bear
against his motion; and one of the difliaulties with
which he should have to contend arose out of the agree-
ment and understanding. if not absolute compact, which
they had entered into with ttie members of the Church
of Engiand and certain members of the Dissenting
community—compacts and understandings which he
would say were most disgraceful to those who
had made them calling themselves " her Ma-
jesty's Liberal Ministry"—in the face of their
former opinions and their avowed principles. His
consolation, at all events, would be, if be should
tail that he believed that he had the support and good
wishes on this occasion of a great portion of his country-
men. If they asked him what made him think so, he
should reply that shoe he gave notice of his motion the
other day, he had received communications from all parts
of the country asking him to persevere in his motion,
and saying that the House would neglect its duty and
betray its trust if it did not grant a Committee of inquiry ;
or give, at all events, some information beyond that
which the Noble Lord had given before it voted away
any portion of the public money. Many of them were
connected as well with the church as with the dissenters,
and they stated further, that if he had placed his motion
earlier on the paper, they would have been better
enabled to have supported him by meetings and
petitions ; but if he bad done so there would
have been but one discussion, whereas now the
whole question would be fully debated. Notwithstand-
ing the views of the Noble Lord, he was still of opinion
that the scheme would prove dangerous both to civil and
religious liberty ; that it was a scheme to increase the
power of the Church ; that it exceeded the functions of
Parliament ; and that it would prove an injustice to that
portion of the community who would be compelled to
contribute to its maintenance, but who would derive no
benefit whatever from its establishment ; and besides, it
would not attain the object it sought to accomplish, as it
would carry jealousy Red dissension into every locality
in this country if it should be carried. The Noble
Lord had talked about intimidation having been used to
prevent the Members of that House from doing their
duty ; but he should like to know what means
had been adopted on the other side to get up
demonstrations in favour of the Government measure ?
In 1839 the Government postponed a national scheme of '1
education because they found they could not reconcile
the differences which prevailed on the subject; but after
the petitions which had been presented that night against
the present scheme, he asked whether there was any-
thing like concurrence or approbation in favour of it ?
The Noble L rd might feel himself very strong in
having bought off the Wesleyans, and obtained the sup•
port of the Church of England. Ho denied, however,
that the whole body of the Church of England intended
to support the Government, as a petition which he had
presented from the diocese of York stated that the peti-
tioners were but beginning to understand the plan, and
saying that they were at a loss to know what portion of
the clergy were in favour of it, as they were entirely at
a loss to know. These were not idle apprehensions, as
the Noble Lord had called them, but the apprehen-
sions of members of the Established Church. He
agreed entirely in the prayer of that petition. The
Rouse had witnessed what had been presented—that an
immense majority were against it, and that but a small
number were in favour of it, and that they were pre-
sented by the Noble Lord ; and it was right that the
House should know how they were obtained. They
proceeded principally from Members of the Established
Church, and when it suited the Noble Lord he could
gi tup demonstrations in favour of this measure. There
were 12,000 parishes in this country, yet after all the
endeavours of Lord Ashley, making arrangements first
with the Wesleyans, and next with the Church of Eng-
land, he had not been able to accomplish much in favour
of the Government plan. He held a prospectus in his•hand
of a society established to advocate the Government plan,
the Chairman of which was Lord Ashley ; and then he
had a copy of a circular which had been sent round to
all likely to lend themselves to getting up demonstra-
tions in favour of it. It was dated April 6, 1847, and
it* *wiping ihorezeo wit 94 tP state Oat as

it had been already asserted, that there should be an ex-
pression of opinion on the part of those favourable to the
measure, the signer of the circular wished the parson
to whom it was address. d to get signatures without
delay to a petition in favour of the scheme ; so that
every parson in a village was to become a petition agent
for the Government—it went on, " to a petition, one
which is sent"—sent all cut and dried from the Privy
Council no doubt—(Laughter)—"the petition must be
written on parchment, and one or more names must be
written on the body of it."—(Continued laughter.) If
this was not done, no doubt his Honourable
Friend who was on the printing Committee,
would not allow it to be printed. It went on, " As
they must be sent in before the 17th, no time is to be
lost ; and they may be either sent to me pre-paid—
(Laughter)—(that was a most materiel point in the mat-
ter, they were all pre-paid at the parcel office), or to the
Right Hon. Lord J. Russell, M.P.—(Roars of laughter)
—l3, Chesham-place, who has kindly promised to take
charge of them.—(Continued laughter.) (Signed) H
Hughes, Gordon-square, Incumbent of All Saints." lie
(Mr. Duncombe) imagined that he would not be long
allowed to remain an incumbent, and that he would be
promoted to a bishopric.—(Hear, hear.) Then came
the postscript, which, as in all letters, was the most
important part of the document. " I have authority to
state, that the authorised Scriptures must be read daily
in all the schools receiving aid from the State."—(Hear.)
the Noble Lord had told them of the destitute condi-

Adam Smith, and he took Adam Smith's authority the
more readily because it was well known that he
was no advocate for increasing the power of
Governments. Now, Adam Smith said there was a
difference, and particularly in highly civilised commer-
cial countries between the education of the higher and
the poorer classes of society. The education of the
poor, Adam Smith pronounced to be a matter in which
Governments were most deeply concerned ; and he
compared the ignorance which prevailed amongst the
lower classes of society to a leprosy, or some other
dreadful disease, which it was the duty of the Govern-
ment to check. If he searched all history he could -not
select a stronger proof of this than what occurred in
this country in 1780. There they witnessed the effect
of ignorance upon the population. One hundred thou-
sand people, at the rumours of a mad man, rose
to overturn the empire, and to make the predecessors
of the Speaker tremble in his chair—to pull the
House of Lords off their cushions, and make Bishops
fly over the tiles.—(Hear and laughter.) That was a
state of things, however laughable it might seem, e hich
it would not be satisfactory to witness again. At the
time to which he alluded, six and thirty fires were
blazing in different parts of the metropolis, the house
of the Chief Justice was destroye3, and the Prime
Minister's children were carried from the nursery and
laid on the tables in the Horse Guards. Nothing could
have been more dreadful than these acts, resulting from
the ignorance of the population. To the same cause
they must attribute the riot: of Bristol, the disturbances
of Nottingham, and all the ruthlessness of Capt. Goring,
and the horrors of the incendiary fires of the agricul-
tural districts,- and all these dreadful and degrading acts
which mt4re than anything else tended to reduce man to
the level of the animal. Could it be possible that such
things as these could have taken place in a community
where the labourer had had his mind improved by edu-
cation—had been taught to find pleasure in the exercise
of his intellect—had been taught to reverence his maker
to regard the value of life, or to respect the constituted
and lawful authorities of the country. This appeared to
him to afford an irresistable argument upon the
subject. It was clearly the duty of Government to
protect the lives and property of the community,
and as ignorance tended the render both of life
and property unsafe, he was at a loss to conceive how
it could be denied that education belonged to the pro-
vince of Government.—(Hear, hear.) It was admitted
that Government by some means ought to protect the
lives and property of the community. Now, if they
took away education what means were there left. Abso-
lutely none which could be resorted to except in cases of
extreme necessity. Take away education, and all that
was left to them was military force, gaols, penal settle-
ments, gibbets, and tortures. Now if the protection of
life and property were the end to which Government
was bound to look, the only wise and effectual means
to attain it was, to elevate the moral and intellectual
character of the people. If Government had the power
of inflicting punishment on the poor, who could doubt
that it was the duty of Government to provide educa-
tion for them ? It seemed to him that no proposition
could be more plain. The truth was manifest when they
reflected that had it been acted upoe. probably more
than one-half of the population who had been executed
for crime might still have been alive—more than one-
half of the inmates of the gaols might have been at
liberty, and more than one half of the inhabitants of
the penal settlements might have been honourably em-
ployed on their native soil.—(Cheer4.) Looking at the
first report presented to the Committee of Education,
just after a period of insurrection, it appeared that in
the district where the insurrection lead taken place there
were about 11,000 children of the age at which children
were generally educated, but of these about 8,000 were
attending no school at all, while the other 3,000 attended
schools; these were defective in their system of educa-
tion—filthy to the last degree, and conducted by masters
who stood in the position of ruined tradesmen. In such
districts as these where the population were suffered to
grow up in this state readily listened to the advice of
bad men, who were anxious to excite them to rise
against the constituted authorities. Here was the
manner in which various insurrections were brought
about, and what were the means resorted to to put it
down. Having neglected to attend to one means they
had only one other to adopt, and that was resorting to
military force. Had the people been educated they
never would have listened to the advice of designing
men, and there would have been no necessity for
the shedding of blood. He said, therefore, that educa-
tion was not only part of the functions of Government,
but it was the best end to which Government ought to
aim for the protection of the lives and property of the
community. When he saw the efforts that were being
made in the country against this scheme, and remem-
bered that all the great Legislators and moral philoso-
phers of all ages, and the eminent men who were
generally disposed to restrict the functions of Govern-
ment, were in favour of such a plan—when he remem-
bered that the opinion of all the greatest champions of
civil and religious liberty, and of none more so than of
those whose memory were held in the greatest reverence
by the Non-conformists of England, was in favour of
Government education—he really was surprised to see
the movement that was now going on throughout the
country. Ile was the more surprised when he remem-
bered Government education was supported by those
staunch non-conformists who, in time of Bishop
Laud, for the sake of religious principle,
left their native country for the new world of Massa-
chusetts, and when they established that State took the
charge of education. In 1642 they passed their first
Act upon that subject, and the preamble recited that
it was a matter of the deepest interest to the State that
the poorer class of the community should be educated
under the direction of the State: He had peculiar
pleasure in referring to such an authority a: this, be-
cause those who followed their religious principles in
the present day were the advocates of the voluntary
system, and, in support of that system, they invariably
pointed to America, saying, see what the voluntary
system has done there ! Why the practice of America
in this subject was just the reverse. A national system
of education was the last legacy that Washington left to
the republic of the United States, while Jefferson was
ever an advocate of a system of education conducted by
the State. He quoted the authority of Jefferson with
peculiar pleasure, because of all the eminent public men
hat had ever existed in the world he was one of the

could be raised for the education of children, so that in
many of the rural districts there would be no benefit
given, and the district would be compelled to pay its
share of the maintenance of other schools. The proposal
with regard to the industrial schools must necessarily be
an injury to the honest artisan. The produce of these
schools must be sold in the same market as the produce
of the skilled artisan, and at a lower price, as coming
from an establishment of which the Government bore the
expense, so that the trades, already down to
the level of merely a subsistence, would be
still more seriously injured. How was a mau
having to pay rent and taxes, and find his own
tools, to compete with those who were supported by the
Government? Besides, it was known to be impossible to
teach any of these trades thoroughly without a regular
apprenticeship far different from that which these per-
sons would receive in the Government establishments.
The working classes had already seen the mischievous
effects of the measure; they had rejected all the attempts
of the Government to cajole or bribe them by specious
promises of provision for their children. At a meeting
at Birmingham, lately, it was rejected by a majority of
152, showing the determination of the working classes
to permit the interference of the Privy Council. But
they never would submit that they should not combine
for the purse cf protecting themselves. The working
men were not so ignorant as they had been represented,
and knowing from experience how their funds had
hitherto been exhausted in strikes and contests, they had
resolved to act in a different manner in future. They
had now a national combination of trades, and instead of
expending their funds in a foolish and useless manner,
they now expended them in furnishing the raw material
of their respective trades, and in reproductive labour, in
order to elevate the condition of their order. This was
a new principle of action and highly creditable to the
working classes. It was only last week that at Notting-
ham where the frame-workers who were Members of
the national union, had succeded in preventing 80 abate-
ments in the prices paid, on account of their belonging
to the association. The working classes of that town
were now getting their own frames and carrying
on work on their own account. Referring to
theleamphlet of Dr. Shuttleworth ; he could not see
why the Government should have sanctioned the gross
libel which be found contained in page 20 of the
" Minutes of Education." He stated there that the
object of the Dissenters in their opposition was to
advance the interests of particular sects. Now, what he
(Mr. Duncombe) wanted to know was, what objections
could there be to the motion of which he had given
notice ? It had been said by the Noble Lord at the
head of the Government, that it was a vote of censure,
though he (Mr. Duncombe) did not consider it as such ;
but if the Noble Lord would have it so, let it be taken as
such, as it involved a principle which he considered a
just one. He for one could not consent to the patronage
which was to be conferred on a self-elected body ; and
the increased power which it gave to the Crown. Already
the patronage of the Government had been too
much increased. Let them look to the in-
creased patipnage given them by the railway
board. The local Small Debt Courts had also
increased their patronage very much. The judges
which were created, and were to be created, under that
Act, would cause a vast accession to their patronage.
It was thus increased to an enormous extent. The new
Board of Health proposed under the Bill just introduced
would give the Ministry more patronage ; and there
were also to be four new Bishops. without seats, ap-
pointed. These Bishops were to he without seats, but
they were to occupy the vacancies as they occurred. In
addition to this, there was now proposed these pensions
to schoolmasters and schoolmistresses, which would
greatly add to the power of the Government. The pa-
tronage thus given them would be enormous. It was
too great a power to give to any Government, as they
could not tell within half a million of money what the
extent of this grant would be, within the next
twenty years. The Noble Lord had said a great
deal about the unreasonableness of the opposition
but if ho thought so why not refer the whole subject to
a Select Committee? Why not refer it for investiga-
tion to a fair, and enlightened, and impartial Committee?
If the Government would not consent to this, it was a
proof that there was something in the scheme which
would not bear the light of day, and that the real ob-
ject was to increase the power and influence of the
Crown. The result of this scheme, in his opinion,
would be, that instead of a free and an enlightened
people they would have an enslaved and corrupted na-
tion.—(Hear, hear.) He would now conclude by mov-
ing the amendment of which he had given notice.
Lord DUNCAN seconded the motion. He had listened
with great attention to the speech of the First Minister of
the Crown, and he confessed he had been much disap-
pointed with the speech. He had expected that the
Noble Lord would have made some explanation of the ne-
cessity which there existed of keeping up the Council of
education which had caused such heart-burnirgs in the
country. He had expected also that the Noble Lord
would have seen the necessity of including the Catholics
as well as the Protestants in the grant; but he had been
disappointed. The Noble Lord had made great reference
to what had been done since 1839; whereas, in his (Lord
Duncan's) opinion, that from 1834 to 1839, education
had been in a more flourishing condition than it had
been in any former period. He wished to call attention
to the constitution of the Committee of 1839, because he
found that the name of the then Master of the Mint
(Mr. Labouchere) was now awanting, and further he
saw that, whereas the commission of that year consisted
of thirty-nine persons, the commission of this year con-
sisted only of six persons, and these were all Members
of the Government. He found that in the year 1841, Lord
Monteagle, who had no connexion with the Government,
but was only a Privy Councillor—he found him sitting
on the commission of 1841. Now, if Lord Monteagle,
being unconnected with the Government, and hut a
Privy Councillor—if he found Lord Monteagle a Mem-
ber of that Committee, he should like to know whether
any reason existed why the Archbishop of Canterbury,
or the Duke of Norfolk, or Mr. Fox Matile, or such
sort of persons—(Cheers, ironical cheers, laughter, and
the most absolute abandon for a few seconds)—he only
meant to say, that all, or any individuals night be
introduced under thie principle, on this Committee.—
(Continued laughter.) Let the House look at the in-
spectors made by this Bill. They had 16 inspectors,
wh raid 13,60 a/. being_ thirteen and a-half

tion of the different classes of the community as far as
regarded edueatiou. Why then had he not taken any
notice of the Roman Catholic whom he was about to
exclude. He held in his hand a statement taken from
the " Catholic Directory of 1846," where it was stated,
that there were in the different districts of London,
65,307 Roman Catholics, poor persons requiring gratui-
tous education ; and that out of these there are only
30,207 who receive it. He should like to know why
these other 30,207 unfortunates had not attracted the
Noble Lord's attention; but was this the only exclusion?
was this the only compromise which had taken place?
What did the House think of the Wesleyan compromise,
also made at the expense of the Roman Catholics? He
would read an accurate statement of what had occurred
—stated in a letter to him from a private gentleman, " I
need hardly say, although a Protestant, that I feel the
conduct of the Government towards the Roman Catholics
to be peculiarly base.—(Hear.) The dissenters, as well
as churchmen, owe you a debt of gratitude for the notice
which you have given them." The following was a history
of the Wesleyan compromise :—About a
fortnight
since, the Secretary of the Wesleyan Society called a
meeting for the purpose of forming certain resolutions,
which had been agreed upon at a previous meeting.
Before they entered upon business, they were informed
that Lord Ashley was in waiting—ho was admitted, and
stated himself to be commissioned by the Government
to negotiate with them, in order to buy off their oppo-
sition to the Government plan.—(Hear. hear.) Lord
Ashley stated that the Roman Catholic Schools would
be excepted from the benefits to be conferred
by this Bill ; an object which would be very
grateful to the Wesleyans. The meeting came to
no conclusion, and it was adjourned to Manchester, to
take the. opinion of some of its members engaged in the
manufacturing districts. The Wesleyans met on the
9th of April, and again on the 14th instant. The state-
ment that the Bill had for its express purposes the ex-
clusion of the Roman Catholics had its desired object.
Tho claims of the Catholics were to be consi-
dered in another minute, and the Wesleyans
were not to be prejudiced from offering it any
opposition they might think fit. It was also agreed
that no person in holy orders should be admitted a
master of a school, a provision made for the express
purpose of defeating a proposition of the Bishop of
Exeter.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. MACAULAY.—This is all a romance.
Mr. DUNCOMBE.—WiII the Right Hon. Gentleman
say that Catholics are not to be excluded? If he does,
I will admit the romance. The Hon. Gentleman then
proceeded : He had received a letter from Leeds con-
taining the resolutions which had been adopted at a
meeting there of the Roman Catholics. Those resolu-
tions he trusted would find an echo in the breast of every
member in that House. " The Committee has read
with astonishment the reply of Lord John Russell re-
specting the additional grant for the purposes of
education." " The Government, in order to ap-
pease sectarian intolerance and clamour, were pre-
pared to deprive them of the united benefit of
a fund to which they equally contributed." And
that they could not but look with contempt and resent-
ment upon a Ministry who were about to create a new
Bill of disabilities on their Roman Catholic subjects.
Now there was no romance in all this, it was unfortu-
nately a reality.—(Hear, hear.) But he would ask the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh, who
said that this was a romance, when he was opposing
Lord Stanley's motion for the revocation of these
minutes, whether be understood that they were exclu-
sive to Roman Catholics? He would ask the same ques-
tion of his Noble Friend the Member for the West
Riding of Yorkshire? If he did, his speech was
most belied, and most misreported. Lord Stanley
stated that the Scriptures were to be read
daily as a part of the national system.
He said that it had been objected to:the former scheme
that it was impracticable to unite so many different per-
sons of different religious opinions. Lord Morpeth
asked, was it right or proper to exclude their dissenting
brethren ? " He had no high opinion of many Roman
Catholic doctrines—of the Unitarians he had his own
opinions—but as long as they employed Roman Catholics,
and as long as they fingered Unitarian gold, they could
not refuse to share their privileges, or exclude them
from benefits to which they equally contributed. Now
he (Mr. Duncombe) could not conceive that there could
be anything so clear as what were the intentions of her
Majesty's Ministers, and he could not help thiliking
that this Has base trickery to buy off the opposition of
some to this new measure. These sentiments of the
Noble Lord were applauded by Lard John Russell, Mr.
O'Connell, Mr. Ha xes, and others.—(Bear, hear.) He
hoped and trusted that there would be found a sufficient
spirit in that House not to vote away any of the public
money unless the public were equally benefited.---(Hear.)
Lord Morpeth in a subsequent speech said that " he
would be ashamed if he did not think that every man
in the country—be he Churchman or Dissenter—was
equally entitled to the support of the Government. He
found the Church reekin the first great claim
upon the property
of the country; but the
Church itself ought to be greatly obliged to
Dissenters, for the example which they had set her.—
(Cheers.) That was the Noble Lord's opinion in 1842.n0w, would they have
lie should like to know, attempted this
exclusivisin had Mr. O'Connell been in that House ? He
believed nut. He would nu, believe that the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Member for'Dungarvon would go Out on
the same lobby with the Noble Lord, he would not be-
lieve that he would be a party to create a new Bill of
pains and disabilities, and throw a stigma On his religion.
The Noble Lord had said nothing' about the probable
cost of the scheme. He would ask any man—any
gentleman in that house if he could say within half a
million of money what would be the cost of this scheme
ten years hence.
Mr. MACAULAY.—One penny per head.
Mr. DUNCOMI3E.—They- only called for 100,000/.
this year, but they were laying the foundation of a
scheme which according to the calculations which others
had made, and which they had not proved to be wrong,
would cost in two years hence nearly two millions.
How was that money to be got to support the expenses
of the alterations which were to made under these
minutes which had been laid on the table of both
Houses of Parliament. lie objected to the unconstitu-
tional character of this Committee of the Privy Council,
and he did not think that there was anything in the
manner in which these minutes had been laid on the
table to entitle the Committee of Privy Council to the
confidence of the country.—(Hear,
hear.)—When the
minutes were laid upon the table of the House by
Lord Lansdowne, nothing was said as to their nature
and character. It was argued in the Privy
Council, and then laid on the table of both
Houses without any prefatory remarks, for they did not
appear likely to lead to any confusion to require the
sanction of the House of Lords. It did not require that
in order to give effect to any Bill that the consent of the
House of Commons should be given. In the view of the
Privy Council, the President of the Privy Council had
only to take the minutes to the Lords and Commons,
and there let them digest them if they could. It was a
great condescension on the part of the president to say
anything at all about them. Let the people pay their
money and be grateful. Such was the opinion of this
secret tribunal. If they looked at the minutes them-
selves, they would find that they were objectionable..-not
only on the ground of cost, but also as a general scheme.
He had said that it Would not accomplish that
which it professed to attain. It would create
undue influence, increase
the power of the
Crown,
gtveere thought of and framed
of the Government.
It
appearsatnhda t
these
minutes
a
on the 20th of August last, when some general minutes
were agreed upon, and the President of the Council re-
tired for four months until he could prepare a further set
of minutes for the regulation of education, pupil teachers,
and stipendiary monitors. He must say that, looking at
the minutes altogether, independently of their unconsti-
tutional character—for he thought that never was such
a piece of quackery put together as the whole of these
minutes. Talk of Professor Ady and Morison's pills, give
him Dr. Kay Sbuttleworth's resolutions.-(Laughter.)
This measure was absurd to all practical working men, and
more particularly in that portion which referred to the
workshops and industrial schools—it was the laughing
stock of the country. There were pupil teachers, ap-
prenticed pupil teachers, who
had a five year's appren-
tic,.ship to undergo. The Privy Council ought
certainly to be called inquisitors in this in-
stance, for the education
.of
dthe children would
be assigned oynte b
to inspectors app _
y the Privy Coun-
cil.hdifference '
There was not muc lti the course of
examination between the boys and girls, except the girls
only being required to be versed. in the geography of
• e The girls were
the British Eflopir . not required to
proceed beyond " Compound Proportion " lii figures.
Now such a thing isaS really preposterous—those who
were to be their future kitchen-maids 'and house-maids,
are to be crammed by the compound proportion of the
parochial clergyman —(Hear, hear, and laughter.) In
the third year the examination differed but little from
that of the first ; and, in the fouth year, they required
a knowledge of vocal music and drawing, especially
from models. This was not absolutely required, because
the means of teaching it might not exist in every school.
The Right lion. Gentleman would say that it was easy
to have models for every school, according to the pre-
sent " Poses Plaitiques.”--(Laughter.) The work-
ing men had a strong sense of the in
jury whichthey would inflict upon themselves by supporting
this measure.—
(Hear, hear.) It
would have the
effect of excluding the rural districts entirely from
the benefits of the scheme, for they required, before a
grant of any sum was made, that twice the sum should
be raised by contributions, so that for 11 grant of 201.,
40/. would be thus raised, boucles a house rent free,
W4iel; wQI44 wau 4 Eir Plwes 10.& 9/ as

and he had no doubt that the Hon. Member for Mon-
trose would ' perfectly coincide in the opinion he was
about to quote. Atter laying down in the strongest
manner the general principles of interfence on the part
of the Government, Mr. Hume went on to say that, " as
there are certain callings highly useful and net to
the state, but yet which do not give chat degree of ad-
vantage to any individual adequate as remuneration for
his services, the State must, by means of bribes, by means
of distinctions, or by money secure him." If th ere was a
calling in the wide world to which this description ap-
plied that calling was that of the schoolmaster, whose
business was to teach the poor. This calling w,as useful.
That his calling was necessary for the people me person
could dispute ; as little could it be, that he cant tot and
does not obtain adequate remuneration without .the in-
terference of the Government. Here, then, was an ob•
vious reasonable rule laid down by Mr. flume, and this
was a case in which the Government was clearly called
upon to interfere. There was no reason, el priori, to
prove that the application of the principles of non-in-
terference could not supply the people with a good prin-
ciple of popular education. But let the House look at
the facts. Wllat was the system which had existed ire
England from time immemorial ? It had always been
a system of non-interference for the purpose of provid-
ing education for the poor. If, then, that principle or
free competition really were the principle's upon which the
education ofithe people might successfully be conducted;
if the principle would be to education what it was to
system of trade, they would have sees the result of that
principle as they had seen it developed in consequence of
the rea.oval of the restrictions os trade.—(Hear, hear.)
The principle of competition iu matters of education
collet not, however, have been the one adopted to the
end, viz., general education among the people. It was a
principle which had been tried with perfect liberty in the
richest country under heaven, and in a country the
people of which are considered as intelligent persons.
and cannot be fairly accused of being illiberal. If, then
there ever was a country in which the principle of non-
interference could have worked with effect, and shown its
power, it would have been in this country. The state of
things would have been this—the schools of the country
would have been models, perfect institutions, to be found
in every part of the country ; every school would have
been an example, it would have contained an excellent
little library and mechanical apparatus, the very fact of
such a thing as grown-up persons, who were unable to
read or to write their name, would have been unheard
of'. And with respect to the schoolmasters, they would
have been men as expert in the business of imparting
knowledge, and in the management of the minds of
young people, as their cutlers were in making knives,
' and as their engineers were in repairing machinery ;
they would have been amply remunerated and their lot
in life would have been respectable, and they would have
been treated with all that respect which the instructors
of the morals and intelligence of the people should Lal-
ways receive. Did they show that they possessed any
of those things at the precent time ? Look at all those
authoritative sources of information, the charges of judges,
the resolutions of grand juries, and the reports of public
departments which have anything to de with ascertaining
the state of educetion among the people. Their effect is
the s .m 3 as those fects already stated by my Noble
Friend. Take the report of the register of the prisons.
In Hertford Gaol and Herne of Correction there were
700 prisoners, one half of those were unable to read or
to write. In Maidstone gaol there were 3,000 prisoners.
1,300 of whom were unable to read or to write, and nOt
more than 50 able to read or to write well. In Cold-
bath-fields there were 8,000 prisoners, but only seven
who could read or write well. Look again at the register
of marriages, of 130,000 couples married in the year
1844, more than 40,000 bridegrooms and 60,000 brides
could not sign their names, but put their marks to the
register.—(Laughter.) Even the education. that was
received in some of the schools was of a most
inferior description. Many of the schools are mere
dens—a heap of fuel on one side, half a testament, a
dog's-eared spelling-book, a broken slate, and a pen.
And then the master—(Laughter)—and then the master
—where was the high principle, the high spirited, the
heroic devotedness on his part to the improvement of the
pupils committed to his care, many of the men were
merely discarded serving men, ruined tradesmen, many,
of them who could not work a rule of three sum, who did
not know whether the earth were a cube or a sphere,
whether Jesusalem was in Asia or America. Those
were the men who could do nothing else, that were ap-
pointed to train the hearts of the rising generation—
(Hear, hear)—and upon whom the whole virtue, pros-
perity, and freedom of the country depended.—(Cheers.)
If the House thought ho was taking too harsh a view of
the present state of education he would appeal to an
authority which he thought no person could deny—he
would refer to the report of the congregational union
representing the non-conformists of England. Last year,
not quite a year ago, upon the 16th of May, 1846, the
report of the committee of the congregational union for
general education was presented to the union. It was
moved " that the report now read be adopted, and
printed and circulated under the direction of the.
board." That motion was made by Edward Baines, jun.,
of Leeds. What he would now read would he thought
be considered as an opinion not to be disputed. "If it
were necessary to expose facts to such an assembly as
this, with respect to the interest of so large a portion of
the population of our towns and rural districts, we could
refer them to the exhibitions in the various localities
by the published documents of the Registrar-General's
reports. Those reports would furnish us with enough
to make us modest in speaking of what has been done for
the humbler classes, and make us ashamed of England,
that the sons of the soil of England should have been so
leog neglecte 1, and should present to enlightened
fo: eigners tra‘ cling from other shores such a sad spec-
tacle of neglected tnentel degradation." He. like Mr.
Baines, most cordial!), adopted that report. It was in
perfect agreement with all the information he had been
able to obtain upon the subject. He believed that the
stAe of educe:don among the common people of this
country a ought to melee us ashamed at the sad spectacle
presented to the enlightened foreigners who visited our
shores."—(Hear, hear, and cheer=.) And now, under
what seat. m had this ctate things come to
pass ? Und, r a a stern of non-interference--of
free competition—.a system which they were told
was, just as powerful a stimulus iii education as in mat-
ters of trade or commerce. How long had it been in

to were p. ...aes .. „
A the whole outlay.—(Hear.) Now, he thought that greatest who had ever resisted any increase in the this state? This morning he received a paper said to
where this enormous expense was incurred in a mea- functions of Government. Against these authorities only contain " reasons for opposing the educational plan,"
sure for the benefit of one section of a class, thtit the one eminentleatee:cuuld be placed, and the clamour of 1846 and one of the reasons was if you wait with patience,
House ought to look with. jealousy at the whole Bill. against a Gsvernment system of education was raised private enterprise will do it all. They had been waiting
Looking at the principle involved in the measure, he by those who opposed the wisdom of their former selves. with patience ever sinzito u,
the t,i,trii,e? -ofT 'fill
ihtehe ll ;epatrar2eBh4y7.
thought that it was opposed in almost every particular It seemed to be the opinion of them who raised the How long were they still
to the rule which had guided Government in 1834. But clamour that the proper functions of Government was or 3847? Was there ever an experiment tried during
who was the originator of this measure a Let them not always to wait till necessity called for the exercise of such a length of time with so little ef . et, and yet these
be told at one time that it was the Prime Minister, and military force, and they had nothing to do with resorting men called upon them to go on waiting still longer.
at another time that it was the President of the Cituncil. to means for improving the intellectual and moral chit- The experiment had been tried under the most favour-
He trusted that this subject would be reconsidered. He ratter of the people. The duty of the statesman was able circumstances. They were asked to wait a short
did not desire to see himself placed in opposition to the simply to see great towns grow up and provide geols and time, and all would be right. He defied them, however,
Government, but he trusted that the number of petitions barracks for the correction of the people instead of to point out a single case in which tree competition had
presented would have their eff,ct, and that they would schools for improvement of their minds, and when been productive of beneficial results. And as the south
not be thrown over to the mercies of the Privy Council. moments of danger arrived they will be wanted of Britain formed an argument, so did also the northern
Knowing, as he did that the R;ght Hon. Bart., the Mem- to be at liberty to send down soldiers to mow teem down, part form'another. Now here were two nations of the
ber for Tamworth, had opposed a grar.t of this kind in but he must on no account attempt to cultivate or teach same origin, of the same blood, speaking, with a slight
1839, on a highly constitutional ground, he should con- the intellect of the people. The same might be said of diversity, the same language, separated, at the same
elude by quoting a portion of the speech delivered by the populations of agricultural districts. He me ant the time from the see of Rome in the same generation, and
him on that occasion. The Noble Lord pelted a por- incendiary's torch was at work before the statesman by the same great reformatory movement, united under
tion of the speech of Sir Robert Peel, in 1839, and sat could interfere, and he must abstain from all attempts to one sovereign, going through the same sources of politi-
down by seconding the motion. remove the ignorance which might prevail on machinery cal revolutions, united together through a long series of
Sir ROBERT INGLIS said that it would be in vain, and subjects of that nature. It was difficult to under- ages, and yet there now existed great differences be-
at that moment, to try to create a different organization stand in what way men of undoubted ability and of tween them. England had been for many ages one of
in the machinery for giving education to the country. excellent intentions should have become attached to so the richest, most prosperous and civilised nations in the
He retained this conviction as strongly as ever, that it was strange a theory. The explanation which occurred to world ; in all these matters Scotland had been almost at
to tbeebureh of England, and Church alone,that the State him was, that he believed a considerable portior of the bottom of nations calling themselves civilised. They
should delegate this duty ; anti however defective he this theory arose from the operation of a law of which (the House) knew that one hundred and fifty or two
might think this scheme of the Government he would they might trace the operation in many similar ways, hundred years av,o Scotland and Scotchmen were words
receive it thankfully, if he could not receive it cheer viz., the law of reaction. The country was treated with contempt ; they were considered as words
fully. It was his own deliberate conviction, that they was just fresh for a great contest with the Government belonging to a people very far beneath other nations in
would not have received so good a measure from any upon the subject of interference in matters of trade, civilisation ; and even the greatest of Scottish patriots
other section or party in that House.—(" Hear, hear," men's minds were naturally much excited by the pro- seemed all but to despair of ever raising the mental and
from Mr. Duncombe.) He (Sir R. H. Inglis) had stated cess. Much was said of the advantages of non-inter- moral condition of the lower classes of that country,
deliberately his opinion, without any intention of injuring ferenpiiithe advantages of free competition; and some So general was the feeling that they were backward in
her Majesty's Government in the eyes of those who had men at ability and excellent intentions seemed in- civilisation, in the 17th century Fletcher, of Saltoun, a
given them so general and so ready a support.—(lronical dined, as soon as they had driven the Government from man who fought and suffered for liberty—a brave and
cheers.) It was asserted that the education given to the a promise which clearly did not belong to them, to drive able man—ever the friend of his country's independence._
population of this country had been generally furnished them from a promise which appeared to be clearly a was so overwhelmed in contemplating the low state_ of
by the Dissenters. He denied this. Until within the part of the legislative domain. When he looked into education, and the prevalence of misery amongst
last century, they had no Dissenters at all—(Hear)-- the works which had been wrttten upon the subject, he countrymen, that he proposed the institntieoonraofepa
the 1
at least no Dissenters who assumed to themselves the saw the principles of non-interference clearly laid down. slavery in Scotland as the onlyomeiamnsroofvemempt.ffig
two
constitution of an independent church. An Hon. Gen- People were told to remember the power of the prin- people to submit_ to ats,yrshtdectah
tit:at p
pamphlet of Fletcher
tleman spoke of the Lancastrian system, but the Hon. ciples of fair competition, and this argument seemed to months from the day a
Gentleman ought to remember that the Church imme- pervade the whole of their thoughts, and the writers and of Saltoun was published, the Parliament of Scotland
diately introduced an equal if not a better system, that speakers seemed to imagine that if free competition was
passed the great Act of 1696, for the settling of schools.
of Dr. Bell, which was universally allowed to an im- useful is matters of trade and commerce, it could be no
See the change that has been effected. In spite of the in-
proved method of education. The Hon. Member would less excellent when applied to the education of the peo- clemency of the air, or the sterility of its soil, the Scotch-
find that all the grammar schools in England had been . pie. They seemed to think, that because it was good man has no reason to envy any other part of the world.
founded by gentlemen belonging to the Church of Eng- when applied to corn,_ it must be sound also when ap- Wherever he went, and there were few places he did
moremade notsueegeossto— was (Lsaaruegtheter)— await thheimsa. me
If undeviatingcareerheenlistedhe
soonof
land, and only within the last few years was a school plied to the school. No analogy could, however, be
founded by Dissenters. Still he could not but think, that false. Consider for a moment what it was which
the framers of this measure would find themselves advan- the principle of freedom of trade so excellent. In trade became a non-commissioned officer, and no matter what
taged by going to a constitutional school—(Laughter)-- there could be no doubt but that the producer or dis- pursuit he applied himself to, the result was successful.
He deeply regretted that he could not give an uncondi- poser of sugar could be able to sell his sugar at a more About one hundred years ago it was customary in Eng-
tional support to the measures of the Government, but reasonable price than if Government were to turn grocer land to speak of them as it was now of the Esquiteauxe
yet while saying this he was bound to observe that no and open a grocer's shop in every parish throughout the but the language of contempt was at an end, that of
new reason had been alleged—no new principle had country.—(bear, hear.)
been advanced for the scheme which the Government individual roce hadm Why was it so? Because any esteem took its place. The system of education establshed
had proposed. All had been made fair and bright, but public welfareg than any
more mterest in adding to the in Scotland was one open to many objections not necessary
it was evanescent in its character and quite unjustifiable Iff theh grocer's, prices were above never could have done bad
Governmentthoseeoonfl dhipsonsseitbglhyhhoauvres: nowrose
toto psoaorhticau
dl aergi
rtez e , but tet
eihmep rfe c t as it was, Scotchmen
in its principle. The Government appeared to have iw'
was
the grocer's sugar was worseno than that of his rivals, he
themeducatieoen
howben
the
et to free competition. Well, then, let
acted on the principle of convenience, and according to customers;
andargument stood. Let them observe
the facts which had transpired there might be a soon appeared in the Gazette,
present advantage, they were quite ready to avail them- took refuge in the union workhouse —(Hear,h nameear . children)competitionrueneder the most
selves of it. They adduced the principle offered by the If, however, on the other hand, his supply was good, the lowed to exercise its influenceqe es wer'primed
favour-
national schools, and might attempt. to show how sue- prices were as low as his neighbour's; if he conduc toahat
one--thes differentr
i crheesru results followedth the
twoltif the
was
al-
selves
able circumstances, atn
ional Union in a ere ' rt de
cessful they had been. But they might as well attempt his business properly, and was civil to his customers, the out by the Co g
n ignorancerega which existed po escrng
to show the principles of the mode of Government with man would grow rich—he looked forward to his chaise the lamentable _
all foreigners who in this country,
visited them were
respect to the tide-waiters.—(Laughter.) It might be and to his country house; and this was the reason why and of whichi
h
said that with the advance of 100,0001., there was the principle of free competition was beneficial, in the ashamed. nte
ether country, which was little fa-
a sufficient opportunity for carrying out the whole supply of goods. But there was not the slightest parallel voured by nature—one with a very imperfect state of
of the scheme. But he bad serious objections, and the in these cases between the freedom of trade in goods and education.—the.. consequence was such an improvement
first of these was to the unscriptural portion of the the education of the people. What class of men could in civilisation, such security of life and property,
education plan, and he had serious objections as to how have the same interest, the same strong and pressing in- and such general prosperity, as had been hardly
far these plans should be carried out. He had serious terest in supplying the poor with good schools as the ever seen in the world before. Now, if thete results
objections to the plan as it now stood. He had serious grocer had in supplying his customers with good sugar? had happened in any experiment in surgery or che-
objections to an unsanctified education—to that education There were benevolent persons who contributed some mistry, would it not be conclusive as to the exeellence
that the guide post sometiim a led to the gibbet. If they of their time in order to give education to the poor, and of the course adopted.—(lleer, hear.) The objections
wouldgive thereturns they wouldshow that education had they might if they please say that there existed among which had been raised
to this were
question vanishing
rather increasedcrime than led from it. By those returns he such persons a kind of benevolence and a competition to on every side. If the Government had nothing to do
would show that out of 1,000 convictions, against those who do good, but do not let Hon. Members be imposed upon by with the education ofthe
the people, then 11 a grants
were shown to possess, at least, some degree of educe- a mere play upon words, or imagine that such a corn- which had been made but of bat
be compared with
tion; 845 were against persons possessing education; and petition is at all to . that earnest, if they had, then they should not be prepared to forego
• t without education. H© saw, however, in strong, and fierce competition, prompted by the d •the
145 against desire advantages of the system for the sake one hun-
the reign of her Majesty's Government,d thatthe
for
a design to waive all minor offences, en with
.t e ope other.—(Hoar, hear.)
Would it not be strange to an economical view he considered that it had its recom-
that such would be the case, he would give his cordial say that there was a great deal of b enevo once men ations, for when they took into
1 d • consideration the
vote in support of her ttlajesty's Government. evinced in this country towards
the poor, and money which would be saved in prisons and punishment
Mr. MACAULAY regretted that he felt any neces- upon that ground it would be
sity to make an observation. on the plan of the Go- oor's rates, because better to abolish the of crime, and for the purpose of preserving order and
the people.
vernment for the education of
P. the abolition of' such rates would property, he believed its advantages could not fail to be
payment of poor's rates from appreciated on this score alone. The money, too, could
seemed a strange time to moot the question as voluntary contributions. The
to whether the people were
to be educated
good in the case of education in the school in each locality ;so that the charge of rot-
or as the case of the of
cot, or whether it was the duty of. the Government poor's rates. It must
with that education. He might appear on a moment's consideration ruption and political jobbing could not be borne out.
to provide themthat ,the task of d 'the l is For, in the first place, Government did not appoint the
that
cite the penal statutes to showthere was upon every e tenting peop e
diemiss
ground just such as those with which teachers ; in the second place, they, did not
no deficiency on the part of the public or of the the Government should interfere. He did not know them ; in the third place, the managers of the schools
state, as was well shown by the existence of the that the duty of Government interference had been were perfectly independent of the Government ; and.
penal statutes.subject he could not quote On that q _ a
+,, ° Y drawn with such clearness by by Mr. in the fourth place, the salary to the teacher less
UV r tera any person as
411gller "49ritY' " 4513.
6.
ilge
° " "" Of ggiarh,smallugter) li
•he referred to Mr. David Linen, entirely contingent on the approval of the eteallam
• •