The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-06 00:00:00

THE SUN. LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 6, 1849.

and to appease contrnversy, and th'

He will not

other measures, and the Right Hon. Gentleman who last
;et, ii na,t rc:et Ie Li to the measure whit
was most necessary, and to which ho would give his ()or-
dial support—he meant a measure for facilitating tt e
transfer of property in Ireland. Ile knew well the difi i-
cul;ies at present attending the transfer of propertyin
Ireland, and he found those very ably stated in a lecture
lately delivered by Professor Hancock, to the Statistical
Society of Dublin. In reference to the legal impediments,
the Learned Professor gave instances of one property
sold for 1,2001, for the transfer of which the vendor
and purchaser had to pay 2001. Another sold for 5001,
where one party had to pay 1241.; and another sold
for 2004, where one of the parties had to pay 40/.
of expenses, or 16 per cent. on the purchase price,
the lower that price the greater in proportion being
the expense of transkr. The actual amount of ex-
peuses paid by the vendor and purchaser was only a part
—there was the delay which took place before the transfer
was completed—the doubt and uncertainty as to the
validity of it, which often arose, and the trouble and ex-
pense which parties were often put to in consequence ;
and what they wanted was that there should be inserted
into the Bill of last year a clause authorising the Court
of Chancery, when satisfied of the legality of the tenure
by which the property was held, to give its sanction for
its immediate transfer. Then there were other measures
which might be applied, of an equally beneficial nature.
The Noble Lord at the head of the Government, in
making his statement the other evening, had said that
Government had advanced to Ireland under the Land Im-
provement Act the sum of 500,0001, for the purpases of
drainage 320,000 L, and in aid of the formation of rail.
ways 620,0001, besides 1,000,0001. to be given for the
improvement of estates in Ireland. He granted all
that money had been given, and from personal expe-
rience he could state the great advantage which had
arisen from the sums expended under the Land Im-
provement Act. But there had ever been drawbacks on
the operation of the plan, for in many cases parties had
declined making application for the grant, on the ground
although they did so, and had relieved the poor in their
own neighbourhood, they had no security; but they
would be taxed additionally for the poor of other dis-
tricts.especotfhathde been too
so
given limited,
shouldand
would
be
r
et it that
the
more
building of offices and farm steadings, and mills, which
were greatly wanted in many parts of Ireland. The
appsluiegdg in
320,0001., given for drainage, was by far too limited,
and consequently the drainage operations had been
almost suspended. He knew one district where eight
hundred able-bodied men were employed in actual drain-
age works, while the works being suspended these were
now all upon the poor-rates; and out of 101 districts
where those public works were in operation, about 70
of them had been suspended, while from 20,000 men
at one time being employed, there were now only 2,000.
As to the 620,0001. advanced for railways, 520,000/. had
been given to one, and 100,000/. to another, so that but
little good to the country had resulted from that; the
railways for which
it was given all running in one direc-
tion. The promotion of railways in Ireland was, how-
ever, of great importance, and he trusted Government
would aid the formation of them, and that other measures
tending to promote the social condition of Ireland would
also be had recourse to. He did not refer to those mea-
sures so much talked of, such as tenant right, the church
revenues, and the suffrage. They wanted measures
which would improve the social condition of the
country, and restore confidence to it. That could only
be done by the aid of Government security, and he would
urge the necessity of such being given. He asked
that the tax should be fairly apportioned, and that
the industrious and indefatigable people of the north of
Ireland should not be burdened with so unjust and in-
jurious a measure, and therefore moved the following
amendment, that after the words " two years," in the
original motion, there be inserted "thtit an auxiliary
fund of sixpence in the pound, for relieving the present
distress in Ireland, be raised from all property in the
country over the annual value of 1504:
Mr. W. BROWNE said that he listened with much
satisfaction and attention to the Right Hon. Baronet
(Sir Robert Peel) and considered that his plans were
the most practicable, and would best tend to the welfare
of Ireland. He did not see what object the Members
for that country had in making the opposition to it that
they had, for he did not think it to be a measure of in-
justice or injury, and would ask those Honourable
Gentlemen whether it was just or right that England,
which is subject to a very heavy taxation, should
also be subject to another for their country. He con-
sidered that this country had already paid too much
for the relief of Irish destitution, and would only require
of the House to refer to the 15,0004 paid by Liverpool
last year for this purpose, and also to the enormous sums
paid by Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, and all the
other _manufacturing towns of England. He thought
that no opinion could be more erroneous than that en-
tertained by the Irish people, that 60,000,0001. was due
of this country to Ireland, for he was well aware from
the returns of the amount of Irish income, that making
them an allowance of three and a half per cent. they
would be indebted to this country the sum of 370,000,0001.,
but that it was right to give them credit for the duty on
spirits, wine, tea, and tobacco, which reduces their debts
to this country to 200,000,000L—(Laughter.) He did
not see why the Irish should not submit to this sixpenny
rate in aid, and reflect that the people of this country
were always ready in cases of emergency to put their
hands in their pockets for Ireland.---(Hear, hear.)
Sir EDMUND MACNAGHTEN said that the feel-
ing of the people of the north of Ireland, respecting the
present proposition of the Government, reminded him of
the case in Scripture of the five virgins who refused ad-
mittance to the five foolish virgins when they had not
oil to burn in their lamps. The people of the north were
determined to oppose this measure, and for his own part
he looked upon it as impolitic and unjust; for he did-AUDI
know why Ulster and Leinster should be made subject
to a heavy tax for the distress of Munster end Con-
naught, particularly when Antrim, Armagh, and Derry
suffered, as well as the south and west, from the failure
of the potato crop. He admitted that unions should
contribute to the support of those in their vicinity; but
could not understand that the 43d of Elizabeth intended
to extend the system of mutual support beyond the hun-
dreds or the counties.

the name of a sixpenny loyalty, but that Hon. Member
was a member of the L.)yal Repeal Association, the
object of which was the repeal of the uni with Eng-
land.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lori (Lord John
Russell) knew that the loyalty of the people of Ulster
had been severely tried, and it ought not, therefore, to
be trifled with. (Hear, hear.) He called the
attention of the House to a petition from the union of
Armagh, stating their inability to pay additional taxa
tion, and complaining of the composition of the Com-
mittee appointed upon the Irish poor-law. He could
bear testimony that no union had more effectually car-
ried out the law than the union in question. He recol-
lected that when distress prevailed in Ireland in 1816
and 1817, that all persons contributed according to their
means, the landed interest as well as the moneyed in-
terest, and the consequence was, that the poor were
relieved, while at the same time the landed interest was
not impoverished. In the present case, however, the in-
tention was to throw the burden upon the land, and that
without any distinction. On this point he could speak
of his own knowledge as to the state of things in his
own county (Armagh). In one division of it the land
was in the possession of resident landlords who dis-
couraged sub-letting by every means in their power, and
pauperism was in consequence scarcely known upon their
estates. On the other hand, there was land in the same
division of the county, the property of absentee land-
lords, in which sub-letting was encouraged, and the
result was the very reverse—for on these estates pan•
perism abounded. He therefore complained of the law,
that it made no distinction between resident landlords
whose estates were well managed, and absentee land-
lords, whose properties were so managed as to increase
the distress.—(Hear, hear.)

nallvioual pa: ishes without concert, who are strueeliag
agaisai, the greatest difficulties, and who aro doing ad
they can to overcome their difficulties, sad finding then'
efforts useless.—(flear, hear.) He says, therefore, " Of
al things a commission is the most necessary, both to
direct and to appease controversy and the litre." Then,
referring to the commissioners,
,he thinks it absolutely,
necessary, instead of directing the proceeding at Somer-
set-house,
" that they should for certain times reside in
some habitable town iu Ireland—(Laughter)—near to ,
the country where the plantations shall be." Then I
he foresees the objection which the Secretary of State or
the Ministers may make. They may say " we need not
have a separate commission for that purpose; there is a
capital privy council sitting in Ireland; they may dis
charge all the duties of the commission, and therefore let
it go to the privy council." Lord Bacon, with that habi-
tual sagacity which belongs to men in office—(Laughter)
—gave his answer to such an objection; he said, " when
I speak of a council of plantations, I mean some persons
chosen by way of preference, upon whom the labours
may rest, for although his Majesty hath a grave and
sufficient council in Ireland, yet that supplies not the
purpose whereof] I speak.—(Laughter.) It will give a
greater expedition, and some better protection, in the
direction and resolution of matters that are to be con-
sidered beforehand, if such considerations be left with
those who have the control and care of the cause."
You would have no difficulty in carrying out this
plan.—(Hear, hear,) Such, I hope, is the real desire
among all classes to promote the prosperity of Ireland;
and such, I hope, is the conviction of the immi-
nence of the danger—the great and impending danger
hanging over the country. I cannot help thinking that
if you advise the Crown to select able and qualified
persons to meet this particular danger, causing surveys
to be made of the whole of these unions, devising the
best means of effecting, as speedily as possible, the
transfer of property consistent with equity and justice,
guaranteeing to the future possessor of the property
security against unlimited demands for taxation, and h
giving employment to the able-bodied men—so long as !
the necessity for it exists—in making roads to hitherto
inaccessible places, and even if you will, employing
them upon the cultivation of that land which is now
thrown out of cultivation—that such wonld be a much
better course to adopt than voting unlimited sums of
money, leaving them to be distributed by vice-guardians
who are not acting in concert, and trusting simply for
the future to the chance of the potato crop
being better in the next year than it has been for the 1
last few years.—(Hear, hear.) Again I say, I think the
main hope for the improvement of Ireland is in tho
transfer of property by means perfectly consistent with
equity and justice. For no consideration ought you for
One moment to violate the principles of justice or equity.
But in the condition in which the greater part of the
west of Ireland is at present placed, and the calamitous
position to which it is reduced, I see no hope but in the
exchange of property—the transfer of property to other
hands—tbat transfer to be effected not by individual
parties, but through the intervention of Government, or
of some commission acting in concert with it, taking a
large extent of that district, considering its liabilities,
its existing incumbranees, and the best means of rescu-
ing it from its present lamentable condition.—(Hear,
hear.) Well, but I hear great objections to this plan,
and I also hear great willingness to come forward with
some other means for the purpose of supplying the wants
of the country, and I understand that some of those plans
will be more effectual after I have got the rate in aid.—
(Laughter.) I am very unwilling to assume the func-
tions of Government, or to propose anything in lieu of the
present measure; but all I can say is, that if the repre-
sentatives of Government should consider that a fair and
equitable proposition could be devised for taking a tax
upon personal as well as upon landed property, I shall ,
be most willing, after having got the rate in aid—
(Laughter)—after having that vote, I should be most
willing to listen favourably to the proposal made by one
whose suggestions are entitled to the utmost respect, both
on account of his personal character, his knowledge of
Ireland, and his attachment to its best interests—l allude
to the lion. Member for the county of Limerick (Mr.
Monsen). I shall then be most willing to adopt his sug-
gestions, and substitiate a property-tax levied upon per-
sonal as well as upon real property, in exchange for the
proposed plan.—(Hear.) If I had a property. tax levied
in Ireland, I am not sure that I would not consent
to a proportion of the proceeds of that tax being ap-
propriated, for a given time, in order to relieve us from
this most painful position; that is to say, if I had a pro-
perty-tax now in Ireland levied upon the principle of the
property-tax in England, but varying in its details, ac-
cording to the circumstances of the country, I bhould not
object to apply the proceeds of that tax in order to assist
her out of her present difficulties, considering the pecu-
liar character of the misfortunes with which she is as-
sailed.—(Hear.) I confess, at the state of the west of
Ireland, I am in perfect despair, if the present state of
things is to continue,—(Hear, hear.) I care not whether
you can get three or four hundred thousand pounds this
year, and the same next year; I am convinced that un-
less you make some more vigorous effort to rescue that
country from the calamities under which it is now suf-
fering, at the expiration of the two years for which this
rate is intended to last, the condition of Ireland will be
worse even than it is at present.—(Hear.) There will be
no habits of self-dependence contracted on the part of
the people; there will be hope paralysed; property will
continue to decrease in value; the amount of rates will
increase, and the land become perfectly unsaleable.—
(Hear, hear.) Unless some vigorous efforts be made to
change the state of things, to improve the tenure of pro-
perty, and give motives for the improvement of the land
by limiting the charges on account of the 'poor-law, I
foresee nothing but wide-spread ruin and public calamity.
—(Hear, hear.) Seeing all this, I think, if you would
act upon the principle adopted by James f.—if you could
induce security for life and property, give to the pur-
chaser a good and certain title, and a knowledge of the
fixed charge for some years to come—l say these would
afford opportunities for improvement in the country,
which, speaking comparatively and relatively, no other
part of the world appears to give.—(Hear, hear.) The
present state of Ireland, and the evils impending over
it, appear to render its condition perfectly hopeless: that
which is bad will become worse, and the state of things
will be getting more and more hopeless. I therefore
would advise a strict regard to the plan adopted by
James 1., and the adoption of measures which shall faci-
litate the transfer of property to other hands, give to
the new possessors of that property a guarantee against
uncertain and enormous amounts of rate, and thereby
encourage the exertions and industry of the people. I
see a great world that is growing up on the other side of
the Atlantic; I see the great facilities afforded of com-
munication to it by steam; I see.also the great facilities
for communication by railway; and I see every reason
why Ireland, if an alteration were made in the tenure of
property in that country, should be the most prosperous
and improving country in the world.—(Hear, hear.) I
recollect some lines in a ballad, which were written at
the time of the unfortunate rebellion of 1798, when men
of talent were directing their abilities and their efforts
to the propagation of disaffection, and which made a
deep impression on my mind; they were—
.. When Erin first rose from the dark heaving flood,
God blessed the green isle and saw it was good;
In sun, and in soil, and in station thrice blest,
With her back turned to Britain, and her face to
the west."
And her face will still continue to be turned to the west.
I think we have now an opportunity of conciliating dis-
affection in that country. If you leave her to rely upon
her own efforts she will be overwhelmed by poverty and
despair; but now, by the adoption of vigorous measures,
in which every part of the empire can join, it appears
to me that you have the power, by a new constitution
of property, by the aid of the Government, by the in-
troduction of new capital for the cultivation of the soil of
the country, of materially improving its condition, and,
it you should succeed, of extracting from its present
state of calamity and affliction the means of securing
future prosperity and happiness to herself and strength
to the United Empire.—(Cheers.)
Major BLACKALL said, though he was one of those
who voted for the grant of 50,000/., lately voted by the
House for the alleviation of the distress in Ireland, he
could not support the present measure. In the union
with which he was connected there were fifteen electoral
divisions. The rateable property in these was about
80,r00/., and the rate in aid drawn from it would conse-
quently amount to 2,000/. But in seven of those elec-
toral divisions the rates, up to September last, had not
been paid, so that the imposition of this sixpenny rate
would entirely fall upon the remaining eight divisions,
who would have to pay both their own share as well as
the share of the other seven. But then this rate in
aid was justified on the ground that Ireland was
exempted from the income-tax, the assessed taxes, and
the excise. Now his objection to the rate in aid was,
that it would have to be paid principally by the tenant-
farmers of Ireland. Upon those men the income-tax.
though extended to Ireland, would not fall, neither could
they be made liable for the assessed taxes, though in
operation in Ireland the same as in England, and as to
the excise there were few instances in which they could
be brought within the reach of the laws referring
to that department. The argument, therefore,
did not hold good, as the parties on whom the rate in
aid was to be imposed could not be brought within the
pale of the exemptions stated, though the taxes referred
to were imposed in Ireland. He had long considered
that all those grants, given for the support of pauperism
in Ireland, had been productive of but little good. They
had in papers now before the House the state of nine
unions in the west of Ireland, and from these papers it
appeared, that notwithstanding all the Government aid
that had been given them, they were, at the end of last
year, in a much worse condition than they were at the
commencement of it. On the 29th January, 1848, the
number of paupers relieved by those nine unions was
69,303; and on the 29th January, 1849, the number
claiming relief was 119.624, being an increase during
the year of 50,321. The debts of those unions on the
31st January, 1848, amounted to 34,8421., and on the 31st
January, 1849, to 83,1881., showing an increase during the
year of 48,346/. It also appeared from a calculation by
the vice guardians of those unions of the probable in-
come and expenditure of them for the five months com-
mencing the sth March, 1849, that there would be a de-
ficiency of 18,777/. ; so that, notwithstanding that there
had been granted by the Government, in 1848, 131,360/.
in aid of them, and rates collected to the amount of
54,352/., there was an increase of the debt upon then
during that year of 48,3461., and an increase of the
number of paupers relieved of 50,000. He did not mean
to say but that had the money thus given in aid of these
unions been expended otherwise than in the purchase of
food for the paupers, better results would have followed;
but so long as it was expended in that way, and not laid
out in a manner which would give employment to the
people, and develop the resources of the country,
no other results than those which had taken place
could be expected. He !had always supported a
poor-law, as he considered that must form the
basis of any measure introduced for the improvement
of Ireland. It would not, however, better the condi-
tion of the country alone, it must be accompanied with

Mr. CLEMENTS said-that the tax intended to be
levied upon Ireland was a question of vital importance
to every Member connected with that country. It
was acknowledged that a sum was necessary to relieve
the distress which prevailed in its unions. It had
been argued that the tax should not be a local tax,
but that it should fall upon the general revenue of the
country.—(Hear, hear.) But as the case was a press-
ing one, they must waive that question at present, as
it was manifest from the temper of the House that
the money that was required must come from an Irish
source. Much had been said about unjust taxation, and
that eleven or twelve millions had been raised in this
country which Ireland did not pay. Now, upon that
subject he would say, that the question was whether
there was not a compact made with Ireland at the time
of the Union, and that according to this compact this
country was bound not to tax Ireland for a certain por-
tion of the public debt.—(Hear, hear.) If that were so,
Ireland should not be taunted with not paying her pro-
portion of taxation—(Hear, hear)—and he thought that
a Committee should be appointed to investigate the sub-
ject and set it at rest—(Hear, hear)—as he for his own
part felt strongly on the conduct which had been pur-
sued in that House and out of it upon that subject.—
(Cries of " Hear, hear.") With reference to the pro-
posed rate, it was very easy to say that it amounted
only to sixpence, but there was the principle of laying
on such a tax at all—whether a law should be passed
by the united Legislature imposing a tax upon
Ireland.—(Hear.) It was very easy to say that there
were Irish Members present, but still there was the
principle of laying a tax upon Ireland alone; and, in
fact, the Irish Members formed a very small portion of
the Members sent to that House. It was said that the
rate was only to be passed for two years, but it was felt
that if the principle of such taxation could be esta-
blished, it would,be extended indefinitely. The Right
Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir Robert Peel) had said last
year, with reference to the West Indies, that no single
measure would be a remedy, but that a series of mea-
sures was necessary, according to the particular locality.
Such was undoubtedly the case with Ireland, but be
feared, should the rate in aid be carried, that little at-
tention would be paid to other measures. They saw the
feeling that was exhibited in the case of the Hon.
Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume), with reference to
the grant of 50,000/., who said that he considered it to
be an English question.—(Hear, hear.) The next
question was, as to the way in which the rate was to
he levied; for they did not know whether it was to be
adjusted on the new poor-law valuation, which had been
very unequal as between union and union—the difference
being so great in some instances as 50 per cent. How,
he wished to know, was this rate to be levied? It was
liable to the remarkable objection that in many unions
it could not be carried out. They had seen the effects
that had been produced in many of the western districts,
owing to the manner in which the rates pressed there.
A panic had seized the people in those districts, and he
feared that it would extend itself all over the country.
He wished to know from her Majesty's Government
whether they intended to make a special rate, and if so,
whether it was their intention to levy it in the summer,
a time when the means of the people were most ex-
hausted? He would suggest to the Government that
the best time to levy the rate would be in the harvest.
With respect to the suggestion of the Right Honourable
Baronet the Member for Tamworth, that it appeared
advisable first to obtain the rate in aid, and then to im-
pose a property-tax, he (Mr. Clements) must say that
those taxes would fall most heavily on the farmers,
and would in such operation prove measures of
great severity. With respect to the proposed rate of
6d. in the pound, if it was to be levied as a rate, what-
ever the Noble Lord might say, or whatever the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer might say, as to its being only a
rate for two years, the people of Ireland would not be-
lieve them.

Mr. BOURNE directed attention to the system of gra-
tuitous relief' which prevailed in Ireland prior to the
introduction of the poor-law to that country; and with
respect to the pecuniary assistance given from time to
time by the people of England to alleviate the distresses
of the Irish people, said he was not insensible to the mo-
tives which aetuated them; but of the manner in which
the distribution of the aid so contributed was carried out
he could not but complain, as at once wasteful and de-
moralising. The proposition of the Noble Lord was
nothing less than to make a State provision for paupers.
He was opposed to the proposed tax, and to the mode in
which it was proposed to levy it. The people were not
in a condition to pay this tax; they had not resources or
meansand th eeyq uwaol
utlod ibt
e,
nbouttognilvye
nt hae me
condition
iEntiognl itsohmiendetuistt,rbyu,'t'
would cheerfully pay not merely 7d. in the pound, but
one shilling. He assured the Government, that unless
they endeavoured to assimilate the area of taxation to
the area of taxation in this country, and to encourage
emigration on an enlarged and sound scale, no plan which
they might propose would prove successful.
Mr. ROCHE said that neither the last Hon. Member
nor the Hon. Gentleman who preceded him (Mr. Cle-
ments) had shown them how the starving population of
Connaught were to be saved from their present fearful
position. If he said "no" to this vote, in what position
would he be in? If he turned to the Hon. Member for
Buckingham, and agreed to say " no" to the motion be-
fore the House, that Hon. Gentleman would say nothing,
but would button up his breeches pocket. If he turned
to the Hon. Member for Northampton, he, too, would
button up his breeches pocket; but would, at the same
time, ask him to read his speeches by which he proposed
to give a tax of one and sixpence in the pound to the
Minister, instead of sixpence. If he lookel to his own
countrymen on the opposite benches who opposed this
rate in aid, he would ask them would they give up the
grand jury system if he supported them in opposing this
vote in aid? Not they. Will they give up the Church
Establishment in Ireland, to which fourteen times more
was given than ought to be? No; they would cry at
once, "No surrender." Then he turned to the question
of the rate in aid, and here he must observe that they
ought to recollect that there were hundreds of persons
daily dying of starvation in Ireland, and that England
had declared she would not give a shilling to relieve that
starvation. This being so, he had no alternative but to
support a rate in aid, to feed the poor population in Con-
naught. The best thing about the rate in aid was that it
was temporary. If he thought it was not to be so he
would oppose it.—(A laugh.) He denied the correct-
ness of the historical recollections of the Right Hon.
Baronet the Member for Tamworth. He looked upon
the plantation of Ulster by the English in a very different
point of view from the Right Honourable Baronet, who
had that night quoted an extract from a song preva-
lent in 1798. The Right Honourable Baronet had fa-
voured the House with a quotation from a ballad of 1798.
Now, as the Right Hon. Baronet boasted of the planta-
tion of Ulster and the benefit which it had conferred
on Ireland, he (Mr. Roche) would quote ono stanza
from an Irish ballad written by one of those who were
planted in Ulster two centuries after the plantation.—
(Loud laughter.) It was very easy for lion. Gentlemen
to raise a cheap laugh at his expense. He did not sup-
pose there was any man who did not sometimes make a
slip of the tongue—(Laughter)—and certainly he must
admit that it was somewhat the propensity of his coun-
trymen.—(Laughter.) This was a song—(Cries of
" Sing, sing," followed by shouts of laughter.) He could
not sing without music, and certainly did not consider
the interruptions of Hon. Gentlemen a very pleasant
accompaniment.—(Great laughter.) He would now read
the lines—

Mr. SCULLY said that he fully agreed with the
Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) respecting the limiting
the area of taxation, and the rating of family charges in
cases of annuities and such other measures as he (Lord
J. Russell) bad alluded to relative to Ireland, but to the
last part of his speech he had an opposite opinion. That
was not a question of party, or of religious feeling; and
he felt sorry to see that some of the Members thought it
to be a measure particularly affecting the Protestants of
the north; but such was not the case, because it affected
all, as well Catholics as Protestants. Again, he felt
bound to state that if it were a landlord question, as had
been remarked by some Hon. Gentleman that he should
be the last in the House to support that opposition to
it; but, as being a question that more imme-
diately affected the farmer and the shopkeeper,
he felt bound to give all the apposition that he could
to the present measure. He objected to it on three
different grounds; first, because it was insufficient in
amount to meet the distress for which it was intended:
secondly, because it would be injurious in the mode of it.
application; and thirdly, because it would be unjust in
the mode of its being levied. He would ask the House
to look to the report of the Commissioners, and it would
find that 250,0001. is required for twenty-one unions;
but when it was to be remembered that those unions would
require relief for at least twelve months, and that no less
a aura than 587,4801. would be necessary, he felt fully
assured that the Hoase would be called on before the end
of the present session to support tome other similar plan
introduced by the Ministry. He should next say to the
Chancellor of the Exchequer when he stated he would
be the last in the House to support such a measure, if it
were not a temporary one, that the Times said on the
following morning, that the rate in aid would be
scarcely sixpence in the pound, for that the Imperial
Treasury would pay the remainder, whateyer would
be requisite for the alleviation of distress in those
unions; and he therefore wished to know if more would
not be required of the House under those conditions, as
he feared that those unions would be long embarrassed.
He believed that nothing could tend so much to demo-
ralizing the people of Ireland as doling out relief in that
way. If they would vote for a permanent relief, it would
be quite different, for it would place the people in such a
position that they could not apply again to the House.
On the whole he looked upon the present measure as a
tinkering one, and as one whose only effect would be
to support bad landlords in the west of Ireland, at the
expense of the honest and industrious of the north. He
would with to know from Government where those de-
faulting landlords reside, and who they were; for they
justly merited to be publicly known.—(Hear, hear )
Thirdly, he said that it was unjust in its mode of being
levied; for, if the House would look to the Commis-
sioners' report, they would find that there were only
forty five unions whose money in the hands of the
Treasury exceeded their debts; and that thus, out of
rng was as impractic-
it would be seen
131 unions in Ireland, there were only 45 solvent, and on
those 45 unions that tax of 250,000/. was about to be
raabilsee d
a,
sbutt swuasc h aim mp
oosdsei b
loef, forati
that, of the 36,000,0001., the income of Ireland, there is
only 13,000,0001. subject to the poor-rate, and, there-
fore, there are 23,000,0001 exempted from this tax. He
should, while he had a vote ipthat House, vote against any
such measure, for, in addition to the poor-rate levied
in his county (Tipperary), there is also a county cess of
84,9581., and he, therefore, felt it his duty to oppose the
present proposition, particularly when ho was aware that
starvation and death prevailed in that county. If Go-
vernment had introduced any such measure as that
alluded to by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert
Peel) fur the employment of the labouring classes,
and for the development of the industrial resources
of the country, he should with the greatest pleasure
support such a measure, but to the present
ho was totally opposed, . and he should add, that he
fully agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet, when he
stated that the land in that country should in a great
measure change hands, and that railways and arterial
drainage should be more extensively carried on and not
such measures as Encumbered Estates Acts. The Hon.
Gentleman here referred to the opinion of the Master of
the Rolls in Ireland against this measure, as one calcu-
lated to do more injury than good, and as being one that
was beneficial to none but English conveyancers ; and
next alluded to the letter of the late LordGeoege Ben
tinck to Mr. Ryan, of Tipperary, respecting the repro-
ductive benefits of his railway plans, by which
120,000,000/. income would be realised, and 360,000
labourers and families, =ranting to 1,980,000, would
be supported for 15 years ; and argued that the Cus-
toms and revenue would be thus materially benefited.
Sir W. VERNER said, that being a Member for a
county in the north of Ireland, ho felt deeply interested
heb of the people of Ulster.
of their loyalty in theasis
in the question before the House, and would shortly
trouble them with his views upon the subject. Much
hHaed
wouldbeen
tsaidel aboutl
themthat
northern counties was that they should be the suppor-
ters of the union with England. The Hon. Member for
Dublin (Mr. Reynolds) had described that loyalty under

" The battle of the Diamond
(Far let the watchword fly),
Where craven Papist rebels crouched,
Upon the earth to die,
slain by devoted men and true,
Who fought with heart and blade,
And slaughtered in their ambush vile,
By swords they had betrayed."
—(Laughter.) He did not think that the continuance of
that spirit of religious differenees—the planting on the
necks of a Catholic population an Orange and Protestant
oligarchy—would either benefit Ireland, or confer any
honour on this country.—(Hear, hear.) The Right
Hon. Baronet proposed to create a new plantation in Con-
naught, and he was to do this by means of a commis-
sion. Now, he could tell the Right Hon. Baronet that
the people had no hope from commissions. If, indeed,
the Right Hon. Gentleman would have the land in
Connaught purchased and let out in small farms, and
thus create a substantial yeomanry, why he might effect
some good. But he would like to know who was to
purchase this land in Connaught ? Was he to pay for
this purchase out of his estates in Cork?—(Hear, hear.)
Now, if the Right Hon. Baronet would not stop here,
but go with him, and consent that the tenure of land in
Ireland should be altered, then ho would have some hope
for the fate of Ireland, from the suggestion thrown out
by the Right Hon. Baronet. In conclusion, he had only
to express a hope that the rate in aid would not be
pressed until after the harvest.
Sir A. BROOKE looked upon the proposed rate in
aid as a most mischievous proposition. lie attributed
the present state of Ireland to misgovernment, to the
misconduct of the Irish landlords, and lastly to absen-
teeism. Ho admitted that there were many goo d land.
olaott
htd
hso
emi n
e Caughttoo
landlordsnsntr
u ghgal de a ne df t
against
tnh
eM caot nhu sent et
difficulties
cabunul
d tt
eatsl hl
nor
.ewhei
cdf
ho
tuthrhot
they
yes
tuhhaeed
catoobns
tecenontndet
pee
sdn.
ho(aHnt
et a
ha
erp,yo
boo reu
ag
rhad . t
oi
Hn
aepyopvraeoriphsoehsaeevddy
ttcoaoxupunutptroyna.
)
double poor rate upon the property of absentees.—
(Hear, hear.) He contended that it was the duty of the

Government to adopt strong measures, and one of these
wool;! be to oblige landlords having waste lands on their
states, to improve it. In Mayo alone there were
470,000 aer,s of waste land which was reclaimable.
Why should not the landlords be called upon to reclaim
this land ? If they did not do to, the Government
ought to step in and take the land, and having rcclaiaa-d
the land, return any balance which might be left to the
landlords. The resident landlords were, in many in-
stances, paying 15s. in the pound, not in the shape of
poor-rates, but in employing labourers on their estates.
Sir G. GREY said that the several important admis-
sions which had been made in the course of this discus-
sion, ho was happy to say, would enable him considerably
to limit his observations, inasmuch as those adinis,ions
had very mach narrowed the questions at issue. The
first admission which had been made was that there did
exist in some of the western unions of Ireland an amount
of distress which rendered it impossible to relieve the
destitution in those unions from their local resources—
(Hear, hear)—but rendered some extraneous aid abso-
lutely necessary in order to avert scenes of misery and
starvation which he was sure the House of Commons
would not be prepared to sit by and see enacted without
some strenuous endeavour, some continuous exertion to
prevent it.—(llcar, hear.) It was not necessary for him
to go into the papers which had been laid before the
House to show what was the actual state of that distress,
because that part of the case was not controverted, nor
was the necessity denied of something being immediately
done to avert the result to which he alluded. In the
necessity for doing something all parties concurred.
—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Member for Tipperary
had said that the object of the measure was to relieve
the landlords and not the people. He had to say that
that was not the object of the measure, which was pro
posed to afford relief not to the landlords, but to those
of the people who were proved to be in the lowest state
of destitution. The Hon. Gentleman who had just sat
down, and whose opinion was entitled to the highest
respect, had made some observations from which he
(Sir George Grey) was not prepared to dissent.
The Hon. Gentleman had said that the present condition
of Ireland was the consequence partly of centuries of
misgovernment, and partly of the bad conduct and
neglect of many of the Irish landlords themselves.—
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman admitted that great
exertions had been made in many localities to collect
the rates, and that many of the landlords had not only
contributed largely in the shape of poor-rates, but
had also made considerable sacrifices in providing em-
ployment for the people. While he agreed with the
lion. Gentleman that great credit was due to the
owners of property in the union of Ballina, for the man-
ner in which they had paid their contributions to the
poor-rate, he must concur that if they wore to go into
the causes of the existing distress, it would be impos•
Bible to deny that the owners of property in that part
of Ireland were not wholly free from blame—(Hearehear)
—and that the system pursued by them of letting out
the land in small patches for the purpose of growing
potatoes—and which before the failure of the potato
crop were capable of maintaining large numbers of per-
sons by their produce, and which were consequently let
at very high rents—had produced a pauper tenantry,
men without capital, who had not a shilling in their
pockets when they paid their rents; and the estates
having descended from father to son, were at length
made the mere subject of a nominal rental. Why, the
very extract the Right Hon. Gentleman had read from
the report expressed most forcibly this important fact,
that the distress in the unions was not attributable to the
poor-law, but that it had its origin in the first failure of
the potato crop.—(Hear, hear.) The House were not,
however, now inquiring into the causes of the distress.
They found thousands of people on the very verge of
starvation, and the question was, how were they to be
fed? The assertion so very generally made by those whose
opinions were entitled to the greatest weight in that
House, because they were fully cognisant of the circum-
stances of the country, and discharged their duties faith-
fully—the admission so often expressed by these Hon.
Members that the time had come when some steps must
be put to the repeated applications to Parliament for
grants of public money, was entitled to weight.—(Hear,
hear.) But what was the question? Why, it was this
—if the aid now indispensably necessary for the suffer-
ing was to be rendered by Parliament, whether the pro-
posal of her Majesty's Ministers to raise 6d. in the pound,
limiting that rate in its amount and also in its duration,
was not the least objectionable mode in which the tax
could be levied?—(Hear, hear.) He felt himself bound
to look at the main objections to the proposal. The
Honourable Member for Middlesex seemed to think
that it had been introduced by his Noble Friend at
the Head of the Government very suddenly and
without any prior intimation. Now, if the Honourable
Member had made himself acquainted with the pro-
ceedings in the Committee, he would have known that
his Noble Friend was there asked if ho had any plan to
propose for the relief of Irish distress, or any permanent
alteration that he was prepared to make. He then made
the announcement that he should be ready to lay the
prevent proposition before the House ; and so far from
it having come suddenly forward, his Noble Friend had
stated his views to the Committee, and their opinion was
not asked upon the resolutions until they had been
afforded sufficient time to consider their import.—
(Hear.) But the main objections to the proposal were
of two classes, and some were expressed in the House,
and others out of doors. The Hon. Member for North-
amptonshire (Mr. Stafford) had led the van in the House,
but he had hardly redeemed his promise to point out
its injustice, impracticability, and impolicy,‘ for
although he had occupied a considerable portion of
time in proving its injustice, he had said nothing
on the other two subjects.—(Laughter and applause.)
He seemed to have lost himself upon the question of the
area of taxation. But he had strongly contended that
these Parliamentary grants ought to cease; and here the
Hon. Gentleman was perfectly consistent, for he had
voted against the former grants. He had voted against
the 50,0001., upon the ground that extrinsic aid of that
nature was destructive of that self-reliance which he
thought so necessary for the social elevation of the
people of Ireland. He (Sir G. Grey) agreed with him
most fully, that the principle of self-reliance could not
be cultivated too highly ; and the Government had in-
duced the inhabitants of the distressed districts to exert
themselves fur their own support, and to use all the
means within their reach for the relief of destitution,
before they felt themselves justified in applying to Par•
liament for a grant of public money. But when the
principle of self-reliance was used as an argument at a
time when the House was endeavouring to prevent star-
vation, those who put it forward ought to remember that
self-reliance was of slow growth in Ireland, and
that however much we might wish to cultivate that prin-
ciple we could not expect to render it immediately
available.—(Hear, hear.) Then the Hon. Gentleman
went on to say that he was in favour of equal taxation
in Ireland, all over the country, for the purpose of re-
lieving the distress; but how was that proposal con-
sistent with the cultivation of the principle of self-
reliance? If the money were to be raised and paid into
the imperial treasury, and if it was then expended in the
shape of grants to the unions, the whole principle of self-
reliance would be involved and destroyed. The pro-
posal, however, was one that answered itself, for the Hon.
Member had admitted the policy of taxing ono part of
Ireland for the support of another. He (Sir G. Grey)
concurred with him in believing that an indefinite ex-
pectation of Parliamentary assistance had a most injuri-
ous effect on the habits of the people; but he entertained
a hope that as Parliamentary grants would be no longer
the system pursued—(Hear, hear)—these indefinite ex-
pectations would die away, and the principle of self-
reliance would be cultivated.—(Hear.) He now came to
the speech of the Hon. Member for the county of Limerick
r. Monsell), with regard to whom he might say that
he listened to his addresses with profit and instruction,
because his opinions were not only sincere but of an
exceedingly practical nature.—(Hear, hear.) He ad-
mitted that the necessary funds ought to come from Ire-
land, but he objected to a rate in aid, and inclined rather
to the opinion that an income-tax would be less objec-
tionable. The Hon. Gentleman who moved the amends
Talent would also substitute an income-tax for the rate in
aid, but ho would apply that tax to local purposes— erni•
gration probably being one of those purposes. What
was the difference in principle between that and .the
present proposal? It was sail that the rate in aid was
a new rate; that the whole of Ireland had not before
been called up on to contribute in a similar manner, and
that in England and Scotland the application of it was
not so extensive as was now proposed. But it seemed
to be forgotten that an income-tax for local
purposes was in fact a rate in aid.—(llear, hear.)
The question, then, to consider was, whether that tax
would be more acceptable to the Irish people generally
than a rate in aid.—(Loud expressions of dissent from the
Irish Members, and ironical laughter and cheers from
the English and Scotch.) He was not prepared to argue
that the income-tax should be imposed on Ireland, but
if Hon. Gentlemen could show the Government that
the Irish Members were anxious to have an income-tax
in Ireland rather than a rate in aid, that would be a
strong reason why their preference should bo consulted.
—(Renewed expressions of dissent from the Irish Mem-
bers, and laughter and cheers from the English and
Scotch.) He confessed that he was not surprised at
these very manifest symptoms of dissent to the propo-
sition, because he believed, looking at the language made
use of in and out of the House, that if the Govern-
ment had come down and proposed an income-tax,
even for local purposes, the opposition to that 'measure
would be infinitely stronger than it was to the present.
—(Hear, hear.) With regard to emigration, theHonourable Gentleman must have meant that as a
no benefit
of relief to the western unions, otherwise_
he was
b
would be conferred by it upmight
aon those unions;
and
perhaps bo one
willing to admit that emigration gh
mode of relief. At all events, it wa
be considered hereafter, provided it were sut bj
made to appear
e that could
ct
that it would be an effectual method of meeting the. evil.
—(llear.) v that an income-tax applied to
'pie much more now than a
local purposesile wmansst:3-
aPtarixneoli that kind, for instance, to
rate in aid. To apply
county purposes would begs
.very novel principle, though
he did not state this asap itive objection to the scheme.
His Noble Friend (Lord John Russell) seemed to have
been mistaken if it were supposed that he intended
the rate in aid to apply specially to Ulster. Was
the opposition in Ulster to the rate, or to the principle
of any taxes being imposed on Ireland generally for the
purpose of relieving distress?—(" To the principle."_
Laughter.) It appeared from the report of a meeting held
in the county of Tyrone, that the parties seemed to la-
bour under the impression that Ulster was now specially
selected for taxation; but that was a delusion, for the
rate would be a general one for the whole of Ireland. In
Net., it would bo a national rate; and the people who
objected to it on that or any other ground ought to re-
collect the grants and leans made to relieve Irish distress
already by the Imperial Parliament. lie begged to call
the attention of those Hon. Gentlemen who complained
that English farmers and capitalists did not bear a fair
share of the burdens for the support; of the poor to a re •
turn from December, 1846, to December, 1847, of the
number of Irish paupers who received relief out of the
poor-rates of some of the metropolitan districts—the
numbers being 159,000, and the expense 75,0004; these