The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-22 00:00:00

SCOTCH BANKS BILL.

The Earl of CLARENDON said he would
wish the Noble Lord (Eglintoun) would postpone
his motion with respect to the Scotch Banks Bill.
The Earl of EGLINTON said that at the request of
the Noble Lord he would postpone his motion.
BREWING FROM SUGAR BILL.

On the motion of the Earl of CLARENDON, this Bill
was read a third time.
POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion for the third reading of this Bill,
Lord ELLENBOROUGH said that there was a pro-
vision in the Act that no warrants should be issued to
levy a rate after the Ist of o.:tober next, but that on the
last day of September warrants might be issued to levy a
rate. He.thought that this was likely to occasion con-
fusion, for under the new Act there would be two
bodies collecting for a different purpose. He thought if
there was a clause introduced to prevent this it would
be of considerable advantage.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that the last few
words of the Noble Earl had given a precise intimation
of this Bill, the object of which was, to give relief
to the destitute poor during the period that shall
elapse between the present and the coming of the
next harvest. That was the particular object of
the Bill. He apprehended that in the event
of the harvest not being gathered, or the funds
necessary for the relief of the poor now being collected
under this Bill, that the Lord Lieutenant might issue
his warrant for the Finance Committee to pay over to
the Relief Committee the sums that might be necessary
for tie relief of the destitute poor; but, certainly, it was
nut intended to extend the actual operation of this Act
beyond the first of October.
Lord STANLEY said that the observations of his
Noble Friend were well worthy of the attention of her
Majesty's Government, and he did not think that the
remarks of the Noble Marquis had fully met their point.
It appeared that the Bill was to provide for the destitute
poor, and that the Relief Committee was to pay over to
the Finance Committee the sums collected after the Ist
October. It did not appear that there was to be any
restriction on the Relief Committee whatever for the
relief' committee might make a list of the destitute per-
sons entitled to relief under the Act, and that this list
might then be transferred to the Lord-Lieutenant, who
would have the power, after the first of October, on
their report, to issue his warrant for the finance com-
mittee to pay over to the relief committee whatever they
might deem to be necessary for the relief of the
destitute poor in that district. But there was no
limit in the terms of the Act, and the relief committee
might therefore make out a list for twelve months.
Now it would be better evidently to restrict this power,
and not by an alteration of the 21st clause, but by an
alteration of the spirit of the Act limit this
power to issue the warrant, say for three
months, that on the 29th of September the Lord
Lieutenant might issue his warrant to the finance
committee to pay over sufficient for the sustenance of the
destitute poor during three months, October, November,
and December. That would be sufficient.
Lord CAMPBELL—The Nobls Lord should recol..
lect that the very object of this Bill was to meet an ex-
traordinary case, and that, in order to do that it was con-
ceived adviseable to give as large a discretion as, possible
in the hands of the Lord. Lieutenant.
Lord BROUGHAM..—No doubt, the spirit of the Act
ought to be upheld, but they had no right to legislate in
the dark when they were levying money to be expended
thus ai!hout limit. Ile thought it would be much better
to restrict the power of the warrant to three months, in-
stead of extending it to twelve.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH then read over the 21st
clause, as he wished it to be amended, so as to embody
his suggestion,
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE had no objection to
put off the third reading till to-morrow, to consider whe-
ther it would be better to insert an additional clause, or
to adopt the 21st clause, as amended by the Noble Earl.
The Earl of WICKLOW had not at first intended to
make any observations on the vote till next day,
when it would be read a third time, but this,
perhaps, would he the most suitable time for him,
and he trusted their Lordships would allow him to
say a few words on the Bill itself, as he had not been in
the House in its earlier stages. He admitted the Bill
was called for by the exigency which it was
intended to meet, but there was one clause to which he

wished to call their attention, namely, the twelfth
clause, which regulates the rating, and which gave
the relief commissioners the most extensive power in
selecting whether the rating should be in elec-
toral divisions or in the unions. Ile objected
to this enormous power, and he did not understand why
the choice should be given to them. ►t was not, how-
ever, on the present measure he objected to it,
so much as the account of the precedent which
it was to establish. He was the more confirmed
in his view of the danger of this from having
understood that, in the permanent Poor•law Bili,
which was to be brought forward, the rating
in the union at large, instead of the present
electoral division was pf °posed to be adopted. It this be
the case a greater evil could not be inflicted on the coun-
try. In the first place it was at variance with the prin.
ciples of the law as at present carried out in both countries.
Ile knew there were reasons, and those strong reasons,
which might be assigned for a general mode of relief,
for otherwise there c.iuld he no question about it at all.
But he was strongly convinced that the prin-
ciple of this Bill, if carried into effect, would
throw one-half more recipients upon the rates
than there would otherwise be. In every district

in which provision was made for the poor by the landed
proprietors, the rate became au encouragement
to give the applicant work as well as relief,
because it benefitted the district ; but in

csse all the poor were thrown on the union rates,
why, every district would be contending with the
rest, which district could send in the most ap-
plicants. Ho admitted there were difficulties
attended the division of the towns from the pa-
rishes, because many would be driven into the
towns, and the effect would be to bring a
great hardship on the inhabitants. But it had
been suggested that that diwculty could be met
by an electoral mode of adjustment. Suppose that a
town of a sufficient number of inhabitants should be
formed into a division, and that it should be decided
that when the rate in that town exceeded a certain
per centage the necessary help might be sought
from the union district. But he angered that
much evil would follow from the adoption of
a system of general out-door relief; and he felt great
difficulty in putting a proper interpretation on the
words of the Bill, when they provided for the
relief of the " aged and impotent poor ;" for
in case of age, one man at 70 might be stronger than
another at 50; but if a term were fixed injustice would
thus be done, and much more if the word impotent were
added, for many a young man was impotent, and utterly
unable to help himself. He (Earl of Wicklow)
would suggest that no one in possession of land
should be entitled to poor relief. The exact time might
be afterwards drawn when they came to arrange the
details. If tho Bill came up again with the alterations
which he had suggested, he for one would not op-
' pose it.
Earl FITZWILLIAM concurred with the Noble
Earl in the necessity which existed in Ireland for a poor-
law, and also in saying that great care ought to be taken
in framing it. But what he was anxious about was,
that there might be a properly-adjusted system of elec•
toral divisions and communities. There was another
point to which he wished to advert. He considered that
to throw the population of a town on a single
electoral division was not only a hardship, but
most unjust. He conceived that it would be
right to throw the burden of relieving pauperism on
unions at large, but on some districts more extensive.

He was not aware that there were in the unions of Ire,

land any towns, at least what an English gentleman
would call a town. A great amount of the
pauperism, no doubt, was occasioned by the
system of clearing land estates in the neighbour-
hood of these towns. Now, he considered that those

persons who bad caused in some degree this pauperism
should be compelled to contribute towards its relief ;
and he repeated that it would be better to throw the
pauperism of the country on districts larger than even
electoral divisions.
Lord MOUNTCASIIEL said, in reference to what
in had fallen from the Noble Earl opposite, Oat the towns
Ireland were very differently situated from those
Itnainedngland
, some of those places that con-
-3,000 or 4,000 inhabitants were to be
considered towns.
Ile certaill •agreed with the Noble
Lord, that there wasa b • 3
onus held out to the proprietor,