The Sun.
London, England, 1847-07-08 00:00:00

which induced him to stand, and the remenistrance
which he (Mr. Tufnell) had used to dissuade him.
Mr. HUME interposed. He thought if the time of the
House was to be wasted in private matters, that the
public business would be materially retarded.—(Hear.
hear.) It.might be the Noble Lord's turn by and by
to be entrusted with the Government—(Laughter)—and
he would then find that if every private matter of a similar
kind was brought before the House that he would have
enough to do.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BANKES explained that he put the questions to
the Hon. Gentleman, as the letter had appeared in a
public newspaper.
The matter then dropped.
REGISTRATION OF VOTERS BILL.
On the order of the day being read for going into
Committee on this Bill,
Mr. V. SMITH urged the Government to withdraw
the Bill, as no practical good could come from proceed-
ing with it at this late period of the session.
Mr. WALPOLE was surprised that the Hon. Member
should have offered any opposition to the Bill. The Bill
was so framed as to do away with the objections which
were anticipated from Hon. MemLers.
Mr. NEWDEG.ATE said that the Committee was a
truly impartial one, and the clauses in the Bill had been
agreed to unanimously.
Mr. HEATHCOTE thought that the House were
losing time in discussing a Bill which, at that late pe-
riod of the session, could hot be carried out, and which
wobld not be entertained by the Parlialeent which would,
ssuceed them.
Mr. CHARLES BULLER said that it was impossible
that such a discussion couli be brought to a successful
determination in the present session. It was impossible
that they could get through the clauses this session, and
it would be better to leave this unprofitable d-bate at
once than waste two or three hours more in doing that
which could have no beneficial result, especially when a
dissolution of Parliament was so near at hand.
Mr. S. WOR'I'LEY said that it certainly was not in
his opinion desirable that the Bill should be forwarded
in the present session—for, even supposing that they
could bring it to a conclusion, it would be productive of
no beneficial effect.
After a few words from Sir G. GREY and Mr. HEN-
LEY, which did not reach the gallery,
Mr. WALPOLE said that nothing was further from
his intention than to press this Bill against the desire of
the House, but he thought it but fair that if this Bill
were withdrawn that the other Bills upon the same sub-
ject should be also withdrawn.
Sir G. GREY said, that with regard to the Parliamen-
tary Elections No. Bill, which was upon the paper for a
second reading. that Bill should be postponed until
to-morrow. There was some doubt as to whether it
would be advisable to proceed with that Bill during the
present session.
Mr. T. S. DUNCOMBE said that it was not quite fair
to avoid the discussion upon this subject after the repeated
promises which had been made since the beginning of
the session to take the matter into the consideration of
the House. He thought that the termination of these
Bills with regard to the Parliamentary elections was most
unsatisfactory, and reflected very little credit upon the
House. _ _

After a few words from Mr. B. ESCOTT and Mr.
CHRISTOPHER,
Mr. WALPOLE suggested that the Committee upon
this Bill be de!erred until to-morrow, when the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government would declare what
his intentions were with regard to the other Bill.—(No.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that it was perfectly competent to the Hon. Gentleman
to postpone his motion until to-morrow, for it was per-
perfectly impossible that it could come on.— (Laughter.)
He thought that the course suggested was a very fair
one, and the Hon. Member could in the meantime decide
what course he should pursue with regard to it.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said, that after the principle of
this Bill had been admitted by the House, it was not quite
fair to the mover of the Bill to shrink from its discussion
in the present session. He (Mr. Newdegate) thought
that the Bill was one which ought to be passed as speedily
as possible. He should in every way he could throw ob-
stacles in the way of other measures which were taken in
the place in which this Bill ought to be.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that this postponement was not the act of the Govern-
ment.

Mr. T. S. DUNCOMBE moved the second reading
of the Bill.—(Cries of " Divide.")
Sir G. GREY said that if this motion were persisted
in he should be compelled to oppose it.
Mr. T. S. DUN COMBE said that the Bill was then
in the hands of the House and if the Government wished,
they could, doubtless, postpone it till to-morrow.
After some further conversation,
Sir JAMES GRAHAM proposed that the order of
the day for the second reading of the Bill should be
postponed. . .
Mr. T. DITNCOMBE said he had already, in tiiiiib-
senee of his Hon. and Gallant Friend, the Member for
Westminster, assented to such a proposal. (Het* Sir
de Lacy Evans entered the House.) Now„ however,
that his Hon. and Gallant Friend had come in he trusted
the second rending of the Bill would not 'be postponed,
but that his 11.41, arid Gallant Friend would proceed at
once to take the sense of the House upon the question.
If his Hon. and Gallant Friend would pursue that course
they would know at once who in that House was for
reform and who was not.
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN said he for one should
give the Bill his dEcided opposition, and in order that
the'opnion of the House might be tasted upon it, he
hop, d the Right Hon. Baronet the Si.mber for Dor-
chester would withdraw his propo,ition for adjourning
th. second reading_
Sir J AMES GRAHAM said his only reason for
maki! g that proposal was the absence of the Hon. and
Gallant. G.ntletuan who had charge of- the Bill, and
now that the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman had come in,
he had no objection whatever to withdraw his proposi-
tion.—(Hear' hear.)
Sir DE LACY EVANS, in rising to move the
second readii:g ot the Bill, t-i k occasion to thank his

ilonour,ble Friend the Member for Finsbury for
having taken care of his interest in his absence. He
was in the House just before the discus ion came on,
and he had merely gone out to have a conversation with
some of his constituents.—(Bear, and laughter.) It was
a rare occurrence to see so large a House on a Wed-
neday's sitting, and on that account he ft.lt he had no
right to adjourn the second reading of this Bill. He
should, therefore, persevere in his motion for the
second reading of the Bill at once.—(Hear, hear.)
The object of the Bill was a simple one. It was
to alter the date at which it became necessary
for rates to be paid by voters, that is to say, the rates
payable on the 20th of July would be those due in the
preceding month of October, instead of the preceding
4th of April.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the second reading 67
Against it 72
Majority against it
POOR REMOVAL AMENI)M-ENT BILL

Mr. BODKIN moved the second reading of this
Bill. The Poor Removal 811 passed last year provided
that no person who had resided in a parish fire years
should be liable to be removed. He did not object to
the spirit of such a provision, but in times of distress it
pressed heavily upon the parishes, and was excessively
inconvenient to the poor, whom it was meant to serve.
It threw so many persons upon the parishes that they
were unable t) do full justice to their own poor; and the
object of this Bill was so to amend the law that the
maintenance.of the.non-removal poor, who were entitled
to relief through having resided in a parish five years
should be thrown upon the common fund of the union,
instead of upon the individual parishes. He was willing
to snake the measure temporary.
Mr. CHRISTOPHER objected to the Bill on the
ground of its centralizing character.
Alter a few words from Sir W. JOLLIFFE, who

opposed the Bill,
Mr. SPOONER did not intend to object to the second
rearing of the Bill, but he thought it quite true that a
very great burden was laid on the towns, and that mea-
sures should be taken for the purpose of relieving them.
He thought it fair that those towns which were unions
in themselves should have the same privileges as those
which formed only a part of unions.
Sir GEORGE GREY said, that as the principle of
the Bill had been already so fully discussed he did not
think it necessary to take up the time of the House by
further, di•cussiag it. He would not oppose the second
reading, as he believed it would remove many of the
evils of the Bill of last session.
After a few words from Sir JOHN PAKINGTON,
Mr. FLOYER was opposed to the Bill. He believed
it would be found quite inoperative.
Mr. HENLEY supported the Bill. The evils which
at present existed in the law required a remedy, and
believing that the Bill would have the effect of removing
them he would support the second reading.
Mr. WAKLEY thought the Bill was necessary, but
from all he saw and heard they must come eventually to
a national rate for the support of the poor, and until
that was the case the poor would never be treated as
they ought.
Mr. BANKES was in favour of the repeal of the Act
of last session, and he was very happy to hear the Hon.
Member for Finsbury admitting that there were evils in
that measure. There were many attempts to amend
that Act ; and as the present measure proposed to
remedy some of the evils in it, he would not oppose it ;
but he thought it did not go far enough, and he hoped
it would be materially improved when it went into Com-
mittee.
Mr. P. BORTHWICK was opposed to the Bill, but
would not move an amendment.
The Bill was was then read a second time, and ordered
to be committed.
BwlereLconsidered
and The h e
agreedL o JUVENILE
dts
o'.amendments oFnE tNh Di
s EBRi Bill
COMPENSATION FORBILDLA.MAGES (IRELAND)

This Bill was postponed till to-morrow.
NATURALIZATION OF ALIENS BILL.
This Bill was read a second time.
STOCK-IN-TRADE EXEMPTIONS BILL.
The report upon this Bill was brought up and agreed to.
Several other Bills were postponed till to morrow, and
the House adjourned at a Quarter to Six o'clock.

THE UN,

LONDON THURSDAY

DISTRESS (IRELAND)
THIRD REPORT OF THE RELIEF COMMIS

SIONERS.
Relief Commission-office, Dubiie, June 17, 1847.
May it please your Lordships,—We have the honou
to submit the third monthly report of our proceedings
under the Temporary Relief Act, 10 Vic., c. 7.
Of the 2,049 electoral divisions in Ireland, 1,677 are
nave under the operation of the Act, and are distributing
1,923,361 rations per day, gratuitously, at an average
cost of 2id. per ration ; and 92,326 rations are sold.
Of these 1,677 divisions under the Act, 1,479 have re-
ceived loans or grants, and 198 have not yet required
any advance.
Of the remaining 372 electoral divisions not yet under
the Act, we have reason to believe that 60 will not desire
to come under the Act at all ; and 312 hare not even
yet sent in any returns or demands, although many of
them are in much want.
If the number of rations necessary for the returns still
to be received shall bear the same proportion to the
number of electoral divisions as those of which we
already have cognisance, the entirt, number will be
2,388.475; and if the ordinary proportion for children
at half rations be added, the number of persons to receive
relief wiil be 2,729,684, horn 2,622,684 will receive
relief gratuitously.
The time and opportunities have been so ample for a
suitable provision for the rosily di stitute, since the Act
was in force, that if the dreadful cases of actual starva-
tion that have occurred in consequence of the calamitous
failure of the potato crop ar 3 still to be found, the cir-
cumstance can only be occasioned by the neglect of local
bodies, with whom rest the means of prevention.
We believe, however, that these cases are now rare,
and that an organisation is provided for arresting for the
present so "general a calamity with more complete effect
than was probably ever before attempted.
We will not deny that this result has not been attained
without an enormous expenditure, many abuses, and the
adoption of some inconvenient principles that it will be
necessary hereafter to counteract.
As the working of the measure becomes more and
more developed, we are enabled to judge of the effect of
the organisation under which, it is proceeding, and of its
final result,. _ _

Your Lordships are aware that the principle of the
Act was to enable the different electoral divisions to
provide in each locality for the prevalent destitution by
moderate exertions and a reasonable expenditure on their
own part, aided by loans and grants from Goveanment
when required, and that the Acts of these divisions were
to be subject to the superintending control of a finance
committee for each union.

vv
The electoral divisions in Ireland vary in extent in
area from 257 acres (Blackrock, in Rathdown union) ;
to 145,598 acres (Belmullett, jn Ballina union) ;
in population, from 514 (Seacor,OLetterkenny union)
to 135,6(51 (South City, Dublin) ; and have been valued
at from 3311. 10s. (Mullaghderg, in Glenties union) to
402.5161.35. 4d. (South City, Dublin).
For the purpose of fixing upon an administration for
relief in each division, the Lord-L;eutenant, by his
order of the 4th March, defined the classes of which it
should be composed, consisting of some who had the
greatest interest in the welfare of the district, and of
others who were likely to be most thoroughly acquainted
with its wants.
There are very few cases wherein, notwithstanding the
difficulty existing in some localities of finding competent
agents and machinery, the objects of the Act might not
have been attained with comparative facility, if the per-
sons so designated had entered on the undertaking with
earnestness and honesty of purpose.
We regret, however, to report that in very many
districts such is not the case ; and one result from the
working of the measure appears to be manifest, viz.,
that for a general arrangement a trustworthy local
management, in most cases, cannot be ensured for
smaller limits than those of a union, although we are
ready to acknowledge that, in a great number of dis-
tricts, the complaint is not applicable.
The finance committees, composed of from two to four
gentlemen of each union, have, with very rare excep-
tions, acted with zeal and intelligence, correcting in
many instances errors of system introduced by the relief
committees ; but they cannot always control details re-
quiring very accurate knowledge of the circumstances of
persons and families.
Where all classes of members of the relief committees
have combined in good faith and spirit, the administra-
tion has been nearly perfect, affording effectual but
reasonable relief to the really distressed, while maintain-
ing a due check on the attempts at fraud and imposture
that are naturally attendant on gratuitous distribution.
From this degree of perfection, however, we notice
the gradation to some counteracting spirit in the body ;
a wrong feeling of one entire class ; a degree of apathy
or neglect on the part of some or the whole ; a yielding
to intimidation or seeking for popularity, leading to the
abandonment of any attempt to check unreasonable
demands on the supplies ; down to the last degree,
namely, that of actual connivance at the grossest frauds,
and misapplication of the means at their disposition,
which last two are frequently effected by previously
driving any well-disposed members from the committee
by violence or insults.
In justification of ourselves, and as a proof of the dif-
ficulties we have to encounter in the endeavour to obtain
a proper administration of the measure, we cannot refrain
from laying before your Lordships instances of the kind
of abuses practised. _ _

The first to be mentioned is the demand, in whole-
sale way; of rations for a greater number of destitute
than there are individuals in the entire population of the
district; this has occurred in several cases, and for
thousands in excess.

It is difficult to conceive the motive of such a reckless
course. With some it appears to be an idea that, as an
opening is afforded of drawing largely upon the public
resources, it should be the endeavour of each locality to
get as much as they can; while others who are not blind
to the future consequences of such proceedings upon pro-
perty, would completely drain it for distribution among
the poorer classes, under the delusive hope, it is presumed
that the latter would then be permanently raised to an
easy and independent state of existence.
In several instances the government inspecting officer,
on the occasional visits he is able to make to any one
committee (having perhaps the charge of sixteen or
twenty), found no difficulty in striking off hundreds of
names that ought not to have been placed on the lists,
including sometimes those of servants, and men in the
constant employ of persons of considerable station and
property; these latter are frequently themselves members
of the committees, and in some cases the very chairmen,
being magistrates, have sanctioned the issue of rations to
tenants of their own of considerahle holdings, possessed
of live stock, and who it was found had paid up their last
half-year's rent.
Intimidation (a very common cause of abuses) has, in
some places, been openly encouraged by members of com-
mittees. It is a remarkable fact, however, that wherever
intimidation, or the violence of the populace has been
met with perseverance and energy by the committees and
the inspecting officers, it has in all instances been suc-
cessfully resisted.
When the efforts of the inspecting officers are unavail-
ing in checking such abuses, the only remedy in our
power is to reduce the amount of the advances to what
we see reason to believe, on the best information we can
obtain, ought if duly administered to provide for the
really destitute.
Although we have no doubt that, even under such cir-
cumstances, our issue will be in excess, we shall expect
that it will be in part misapplied, and an attempt made
to charge us with a failure in supplying those who are
really distressed.
In enlarging on these unpleasant facts we would beg
that it may be understood that they are clearly ex-
ceptions, although sufficient in number to be deserving
of notice, and to show in parts of the country a great
want of the principles necessary for minute self-go-
vernment.
In other districts the measure is subject to the decep-
tions and petty frauds practised by many of the order
immediately above the class of actually destitute, and
which cannot entirely be checked by the best exertions
of the best committees. Thus even in the districts
where the service is most correctly performed, the
numbers on the lists will, no doubt, exceed those of the
really destitute; and it will become very necessary, in
any permanent arrangement, to provide for better secu-
rity and tests than can be adopted under this act.
Of these we have little on which to place reliance, but
the precaution of issuing cooked food, and we have every
reason to believe this, wherever it can be resorted to, to
be a most useful and beneficial practice; nor have we
heard any valid objection to it, since it has been under•
stood to consist of a thick stirabout of meal, rice, &c.,
and not of thin soup.
It has been reported to us that the introduction of cooked
food has been universally productive of the best effects
on the health and appearance of the people. In several
places those who were at first clamourous against it, now
request to receive no other; the ration that as a pound
of meal appeared so small, when mixed, well cooked,
and swelled in its cold state to a mass of substance
weighing from three to five pounds, exhibits manifestly
a very reasonable amount of subsistence, and is frequently
acknowledged as such even by those who have to depend
upon it.
In many respects, although subject to many of the
evils and abuses to which we have before referred, we
can report that the principal objects of the Act have
been attained.
The absolute starvation that was widely spread over
the land has been generally arrested, as has also the
progress of the particular diseases engendered by the
great destitution previously experienced.
As an instance we may give the union of Skibbereen,
with its dependent electoral division of Scholl, the
sufferings of which districts were so notorious.
Although much wretchedness is still to be found in
them, there is now a provision made for every part of
the union, the population is gradually amending from
their former emaciated state, and the people are be-
ginning to turn their attention to future occupation and
improvements that may teed to their permanent employ-
ment and subsistence.
In another union, one of the very worst in Ireland,
where five-sixths of the population require relief, there
has been produced by a general distribution the same
cessation of utter pervading misery, and in this latter
case we find that the cost of the present relief, extended
as it is, will not much exceed two-thirds of that of the
relief works, which left vast numbers of the most des-
titute totally unprovided, though assisted at the same
time by large donations from the great charitable associa-
tions.
Since our last report, the Temporary Fever Act, 10
Tic., cap. 22, has come into operation.
We have reason to believe that the power given to re-
lief ootnmittees to attend to the proper burial of those
who die in a state of destitution, and to clear away nui-
sances and ventilate and cleanse cabins, has been exten-
sively acted upon, and, at a moderate expense, will tend
to prevent the spread of the prevailing disease.
Two hundred and seven temporary hospitals have
been directed by the Central Board of Health to be esta-
blished, which are intended to serve so many of 481 con-
tiguous electoral divisions as xuay require to use them. -