The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-26 00:00:00

BILL.

Oa the motion that the Order of. the Day for re-
suming the adjourned dc.bate he now read,
Lord MORPETH presented petitions from Castle-
Maley, in the county of Londonderry, in favour of the-
Bid introduced by his Lordship, and against that
brought in by Lord Stanley. •
Mr. SOMERS presented several petitions from
Sknene and other places in Ireland, praying the House
to adopt the Bill of Lord Morpeth, and rejact that of
Lord Stanley.
Mr. M. BELLEW presented petitions from several
pl tees in Louth with a similar prayer.
Mr. KELLY said that, understanding the Orders of
the Day had been called•on, and that the Nold-i Lord
the Secretary for the Colonies had chosen which of the
Orders of tha Day should Nava the priorty. he ( Mr.
K Ily) would take the liberty of stating that it had been
certainly his intention, in ease. the Order of the Day for
.the second reading of the 13.11 for the Abolition of the
Punishment of Death had here cal ed or, to have moved
the second reading of that .Bid, in the hope that it would
suit the convenience of the House, and to alhw that
Bid to be read a second time pro forma. He wished,
then, to ask if the Noble Lord the Secretary for the
Colon'e3 had a right to fix which of the Orders of
the thy should be proceeded with.
To SPEAKER said, that according to the rules of

the Home the Orders of the day for Wednrsday were
proceeded with in the regular ord,r in which they stood ;
that on Mondays and Fridays the Government Orders
had precedence, and that there was no precise ruls for
Thursday?.

Lord .;OHN RUSSELL sahl that be could not
allow the second reading of the B.li of which rile Hon.
Member (Mr.:Kelly) had made mention, toprss &lout
making opposition to it. It, however, tho second read-
ing was carried be (Lord J. Russel!) would give no op-
position to it in its next stage.
ADJOURNED DEBATE.

The Order of the Day having been read,
Mr. GASKILL said, after the length to which the
debate had already gone, and after so many eminent
and legal gentlemen who wet e much bettar enabled to
enter into its detail!, it would be unpardonable in bins
to detain the House at any hngth. But a ques
tion had been asked out of doors, and . had
never yet been answered in that House—how did it
happen that the Ministers of the Crown—that those
Gentlemen who procured the assent of that House to
the Reform Bill as a final measure, now. C4lllO down and
asked the assent of the House to a Bill that would

totally change tLe whole constituency of Leland? If
they had been told during the last S,..ssion, that the
Government would come down with such a pro-
position—if they had been told, that in place of set•
tliog a disputed question—that in place of at-

tempting to remove acknowledged evils, by a Bill
for that purpose alone—they chose to embroil
it with a question which would increase the evils,
and that by a Bill which they knew they could never
carry.—(Cheery.) Such an intimation would have
found few to credit it. He was confirmed in that

impression when he recollected what tank place
daring last Session—(Hear, hear)—when he re•
membered that that same Government had opposed
_ _

the Hon. and Learned Member far Dublin, when he
moved for leave to bring in a Bill to make an alteration
in the franchise, and that further they had opposed a
proposition much less objectionable and unreasonable,
viz.—the motion of the Hon. Member for Bridport to
resume the House when they were in Committee
on• Lord Stanley's Bill, in order that a clause
might be introduced for defining the franchise.
The Right Hon. Gentleman the Vice-President of the
Board of Trade, who had concluded the debate last
night, made, as he invariably diA, a very el iquent
speech, but he was bounikto say that speech contained
no answer to any one of tha charges preferred azahast
the Government by the Right Hon. Baronet the
Member for Pembroke.( Hear, hear, hear.) The
Right Hoe. Baronet had adduced distinct and specific
charges against the Government. He had charged
them with mis-applying the patronage of the Crown,
and giving a direct encouragement to the agitation for
Repeal of the Union in Ireland. He had charged
them with conferring posts of honour and
emolument on . the disturbance of the public
peace.—(Hear.) How was that charge repelled by the
Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and who was selec-
ted to rrpel it ? It was the Right Hon. aid Learned
Gentleman—himself a Minister of the Crown—and who
bad voted in his place in Parliament for the dismember-
ment of the empire. Tina Right Hon. Gentleirian
did not dewy the truth of the charges made, but nivrely
contented himself with attempting to fasten a charge of
inconsistency on two Members of the House. That.
charge may have 'meant something as evincing
a soreness at least of the loss of their services on
the other side of the House.—(Hear, hear.) But if
the charge wet e taken as a vindication 01 the Govern-
ment, it meant absolutely nothing ; and he might be
pet-mitt:o, with all le pect for the Right Honour-
able and Learned Gentleman, to tell him that the
mere fact of his rising upon 'the ether. side as
a Minister of the Crown formed in itself a suffi-
cient vindication of the course taken by the Noble
Lord the Member for North Lancashire, and the
Right Hon Baronet the Member for Pembroke.—
(Opposition cheers.) The Right Honourable and
Learned Gentleman concluded his speech with a
prs,tettation of his 1 iyaliy, whie ho accompanied
that protestation with a significant intimation, that
while France was arming, the popular demands in
Ireland, however unreasonable, should be conceded.
The Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman did no.,
nowever, tell them what had been the effzct of the
concessions made to the popular party in Ire-
land during the last four years. The Right lion.
Gentlemen had not told them that extorted concessions
had been the means of quieting and removing the a;i-
tation. The Right Hon. Gentleman did not tell them
.low the assurances of contentment and gratification,
made by himself and others in 1829, had seen realized.
lie (Mr. Gaskrll) was glad that her Majesty's
Minis-
+ers had been compelled by the pressure of their Par-.
iiamentary supporters to unfurl the staldard of domes-
kie chanLe in this country.—(lle sr, hear.) It would
enable them to fight the battle of the Constitution upon
plain and intel Bible grounds ; it called upon the
House to say whether they would consent to tamper
vith the franchise that was conle,rel by the
ite!Orm Act, and to reopen, at the expiration oz 10

;ears, the old question of Piirliamentitry Reform. It
Is) die.v a line between the Gov_roment of the

present day and the Government of Lord Grey, and fur-
nished an opportunity of testing the sincerity of those who
~iropo,ed the finality principle. It had been said by the
lion. Member fur Drogheda, that 'the franchise was
.ionsiderably narrowed. Ile (Mr. Gaikell) believed
(he truth to be that the number of supporters of her
Majesty'a Ministers had been narrowed and not •
he number of the electors.—(Fie tr, hear, hear.) ,
He doubte I whether a-majority of that House would be
Mind to support the second reading of that Bill. Would
any man doubt what were the wishes and expe,:tations of
be people of England upon this subject? If any
nen doubted that let him look at the late elections,
i t him look et the election for Monmouthshire, Wal-
sall, Carlow, and Canterbury. Making every allow-
ance for the solitary victories which her Majesty's Go•
eminent had achieved at Richmond and St. Alban's—
( Ironical cheers from the Opposition benches)—
there were sufficient reverses in other placei to
,how pretty distiuctly that the tide of public
apillion had set strongly against them,• and against
the measures which they supported.—(Hear, hear.)
Ile Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire
add been taunted during the debate, because he had not
chosen to grapple with the question of English registra-
tion, and confined himself to the registration system
of Ireland ; but surely it might be asked, with at least
equal justice, of the Government, why they had not
,re.led with the qoestio6 of an extended franchise
in this country as well as in Ireland.?—(Hear, hear.)
The reason was obvious. The people of England
I have repudiated and disowned it, and Ireland
was the only country in which the policy of innovaion
could be hoped to prosper.—(
Cheere.) They had
heard charges of injustice and tyranny preferred
against all those gentlemen who presumed to differ
from gentlemen opposite on questions of Irish policy.
He had seen letters in the public newspapers addressed
to a gentleman named Ray, in which Members of thit
House were spoken of as fools and miscreants, for the'r
opposition to the Bill of the Noble Lord (Morpeth).
He confessed that he viewed the use of that
language, with r hich the Hon. and Learned Mem.
her for Dublin was so familiar, and the appliewion of
these epithets, without the slightest feeling of uneasiness
or regret, though it convinced him that they were
rightly discharging their public duty in that House, and
they were found an inconvenient obstacle in the way of
those schemes of aggrandisement and repeal to which
her
anything else than tame resistance.—(Cheers.) And
Majesty's Government were• unable to offer
so far was he from acknowledging the justice of
such iniputati;:ns upon the motives or conduct of

those with whom he had the honour to •aat, that
he believed, on the contrary, they had . every
wish to preserve inviolate the settlements made
in 1829 or 1831. For himself he (Mr. Gaskell) was
en anxious well-wisher to the cause of Roman. Catholic
Emancipation long before, he hail the honour of a seat
in that House, and long before that question was
carried by the Right Hon. Member for Tamwo:th.
But it was perfectly true that they di.lregt et the course
pursued by a certain party in Ireland since the settle-
ment in 1829. But they did not confound the great
body of the Roman Catholics of Ireland with their
t hen prominent and self elAted champion.—( Hear,hear.)
For if they did, they might be disposed to return
to the settlement from which that concession was
made, to enact measures which would invite the
epithets which the Hon. aad Learned Gentleman
had lavished of old 7 on the Coercion Bill..
In the present state of this country and of Ireland, he
(Mr. Gaskeil) avowed at'bnce that he would give his
consent to no measure which he believed would tend
either to continue agitatiM in the one country or to
strengthen the influence of democracy in the other.
and it was l.ecauee he abelieved the B;11 then on the
tattle of the House tzetle4 directly to effect these ob-
jects, because he saw n the Bill a fatal sepa•
ration from the principles of the Reform . Bill.
and not only so, but a vaitt;And fruit:ets attemptlo con-
eil'ate the determined er.-Oties of the connection be,
t cern the two countries that be gave his hearty cepa-
sition to the motion that it should be read a second
time.—(Cheers.)
Mr. VILLIERS START said if any answer
was necessary to the chae of the Hon. Gentleman,
erho had just sat down, of-undue influence having been
exercised, he might refer toithe speech of the Right Hon.
Baronet o! last night fore an answer to that charge.
From the best attention he was able to give to the
arguments of the Hon. Members opposite they seemed
to him to
.ground their opposition to the t Bill
on the plea that it was a subversion of the great prin-
ciples of the Reform Bill. They appeared to think
th at the principle of that measure was the establish-
ment of a fruichisa bared. upon a certain air. ;ant of
property. Now, it. appedred to ,him that they took
too narrow a view of that Measure, and that they were
turning details into principles. .His view of the Reform
Act was, that it was passed for the purpose
of remedying great evils that then existed
in the constituency of Ireland,—that it was necessary
to enlarge that constituency, and the great principle
embodied in the measure, was that a certain pro-
portion of population -and property should be
brought to bear on the election for MeMbers
of Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) That he took to be the
teal principle ; but as to the regulation of the amount
of the property, that he considered merely a detail.
With that view he should endeavour to show that the
detail.; thee established had not answered the purpose,
and that it was necessary that a new plan should be
substituted. He should endeavour to show the
Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire that
the plan which he proposed for the registration of 101.
frt eholders could not be efficiently carried into effect. He
understood that the Noble Lord agreed with the Judges
that the solvent tenant test was the one to be applied.
Now ht them suppose a case of a farm of 30 acres let
by a good landlord, who, however, wished to get the
value of his property ; such a farm would let for 301.
a year, or 1/. per acre. Suppose the tenant had
it on a lease of fourteen years—he went to the
Registration Court, where he would in all probability
be placed on the resister as the solvent termet test •
could not be applied but on an appeal being
made to the Judge, who would apply the sol-
vent tenant test ; he could not see how such
a name could be retake I on the register,
for no man could swear that he could give him 101. a
ye ir beyond the rent, after paying for all his out-
goings, without deduction.° from his own fair pro-
fits : but it might be said that the ambition of land-
lords would induce them so to act as to keep up
the constituency, but how was that to be effected ?
Suppose an estate of ten thousand acres, divided into
three hundred farms, and let at one pound an acre.
Now, if the landlord of such an estata was actuated
by ambition and a. wish to see his tenants upon
the resister, he eoul 1 only gratify that ambi-
tion by lowering their rents 101. a year on each
fa-in, at a loss of upwards of 3,0001. a year.
He could not imagine how the constituency could exist
at all with the solvent tenant teat. But the Noble
Lord had said that was the test he had intended
under the Reform Bill, and that his present Bill
was intruded to carry the Reform Act into effect. The
Bill of the Noble Secretary for Ireland was,
however, the best remedy for the evils of which
they all so loudly complained.—(Hear, hear.)
He was no lover of unnecessary change, more especial.y
in such a Bill as the Reform Bill. But if it was found
that the object or that Bill, which was the extension of
the franchise, bad not been carried into effect„ he
thought it was no improper change to bring in a
Bill for the purpose of carrying out the intentions
talks friends. The Bill of the Noble Secretary for
Ireland removed the greatest evils which now existed,
namely, fraud and personification, and it gave a fair test of
'the value of any claim that was laid to the franchise.
There was one evil, however, which it did not remove :
that was the present objection to give leases to the
tenants, hut that was • an objection which he
thought could be well considered in Committee. There
was one other. reason why they ought to consider the
Bill in Committee. It was well known that there was
a great demand tend much competition for land in Ire-
lead. lt was equally well known that there were
very many needy land:ords—(A laugh)—and therefore
the latter were anxious not to give leases, in order
to make the most they could by the competition.—
( Haar, hear.) That, however, might be remedied in
Committee. The Committee might strike out
such a sum as might obviate the difficulty,
for he was not confined to the 51. clause—',Tory
cheers)—nor did he bind. them ; therefore he was in-
duced to hope that some even of the Genilemea op-
posite would give their support to the second reading
of the measure.

Colonel CON OLLY rose to resist to the utmost
the Bill cf the Noble Lord. He objected, as the Noble
Lord, the Member for North Lancashire did, in liiniue,•
to the irreconcil ibility of the measure itself with
the name of the Bill—that under the colour of de-
fining the franchise, it really and praeticaliy annihi-
lated the qualifieat'on. But he confessed that he
had long feared the Noble Lord would introduce
some such measure, though the lowering of the franchise
would be most injurious to Ireland. When the
Noble Lord opposite (Lord Morpeth) replied to the
Han. and Learned Member for Dublin, upon his
application • to bring in a 8.11 for the purpose
of assimilating the franchise of England and
Ireland, he (Colonel Conoliy) then fearfully
apprehended, that though the Noble Lord resisted
the application, he would be borne down by that
powerful pressure to which he was obliged in all
cases to submit. Sorry, indeed, was. he, teat those
fears bad been realised,—sorry was he that the Noble
Lord had not been able to hold his own ground against
his powerful master ; and th it be ha I been obliged
to concede those very principles Le thee so
manfully upheld.—(Herr, hear, hear.) Much its
he respect el the Noble Lord's character, his
rail, and his station, he was sorry for him as a
inan, as a Member of Parli iment, and as a Mini-
ster of the Crown, that he had placed himself
in such a humiliating posit:on. He said taut with pain,
but he • cei t duly did not think .it possible fur any
human being to be subjected to a mote deg•radiog
sittiatiae.—(Loud cheers from the Oppdsition, and
laughter on the Ministerial benches.) He had great
respect for the character of the Noble Lord, but he
was obliged to say that.—(lronical cheering.) He was
sorry that the Noble Lord had brought in a Bill
which with his knowledge of Ireland he must know
was adding neer embers to ae expiring flume,
and that just as Ireland, was beginning to reco.
ver from the registration of 1832—just as Ited ind
was beginning to express its own opinion that agitation
was injurious to the country, and the ordinary relations
of society were beginning to resume their force—the
Government that ought te have resisted turbulence and
opposed agitation Were the men to renew', and he
would say if this Bill passed, to perpetuate the discord
and agitation which bad been so interestedly, design-
edly, and injuriously eavried on in that country.—
(Hear.) He spoke with pain, but with the blessing
of God he wo'ulli speak his own mind ;he would tell the
truth, and though he might be in error, he would speak
what he thought.—(He4r, bear, from Mr. O'Connell.)
The policy of the Irish Government since the list
Session of Parliament had been of that wretchedly am-
biguous character that the newspapers, and every par=
son in that country, bad been constantly inquiring
whether they • were the advocates of repeal or not.
The measure before the House answered the question.
He b.elieved that if any measure could secure the ser-
vices of the repeal party, it was that which was then
under the consideration of the House, and which
gave the illctive franchise without any qua-
lification. —( Hear, hear, from Mr. O'Connel.) He
saw that there was virtually no qualification, and
be appe lied t the Hon. and Learned Member for
Dublin to s,y if it wer-r not so. He objected to
the menses.', because he was persuaded that it wou:d
p,erpetuate the empire of the Hen. and Learrel Gen-
t,einan, and because it would render inevitable either a
ekil war or a repeal of the Union.—(Hear, hear,
heir.) Ile could not doubt but the Noble Lord
,
the Secretary for le c!and roust himself be
a.vare that by. this measure he would give flesh pinions
to the Hon. and Learned: Member's flight. The
fact was the Ministry had brought down the
great despot on their backs, and while they denounced
the repeal in words, they were furnishing the Hon.
and Learned Member with the belt means of accom-
plishing his purpose. He (Colonel Conolly) had
himself heard the Honourable and Learned
Gait elian deride the threats of Ministers at one
of his meetings,—(" Hear, hear," from Mr. O'Connell.)
Toe lion. and Learned Gentleman knew • whe.:, he
alluded to, aid that Gentlemen knew that Repeal was
nothing but an empty stratagem to fill his pock( ts.—

(Hear, from the Ministerial benche'.) If, however, it
were to end in that, although he should be sorry to see
his countrymen despoiled, by false pretences, he would
not have taken the trouble of rising on
that occasion. But he saw that the entire
procee ling was one of the most serious character.
Statements were made in a speech lately by a certain
Irish county Member, . which he (Colonel Conde')
held it unworthy of him to notice.—((Cries of
" Hear, hear.") He (Colonel Connolly) contended
that it was tee gross demoralization of the people, the
monstrous striding of perjury over the land, that called
on the Members of her Majesty's Government ti make
that show of legislation which they on the present occa-
sion exhibited. It was he insisted, 'but a show
of legislation. He spoke of their act'eres and mat of
their professions. It was but a moeeery to bring in a
Bill for the purpose of keeping out that of his Noble
Friend the Member for North Lancashire. He (Col.
Connolly) was sorry to hear an Irish county Member,
for whose opinions on most subjects he entertained the
highest respect, set, that. the meeting held a short t tree
ago in Belfast would not be so great if the object of
the Noble Lord's (Lord Stanley) Bill was not disfran-
chisement. lie teought thet in almost every case re.
lative to Ireland that Honourable Gentleman's views
were well t Ike!), but be could not agree with
him in what he stated on the. Eubject. The
Bel nev:r would have been brought in et all but
for the goading of the Toriei.—( Loud cheers and
laughter.) He was delighted with the Right Hon.
Baronet the Member far Pembroke last night,
when he stated that it was merely a repetition
of the appropriation clause. Now the Honour-
able and Learned Gentleman, the Member for
Dublin, said the voice of Ireland was raised against the
measure, but as personation was the order of the day,
he, on the part of Ulster, would take leave to deny it
eltogether. It was, in fact, nothing but a Bill to fill the
pocket; of the Hon. and Learned Member for ,Dub-
lin.—(oll, oh.) It wits but it fresh stratagem to
fan the expiring flame of liberality on the part of the
follomers of the Hon. and Learned Member, when
vIVP, and municipal corporations, and all else had
failed.—(lronical cheers.) The lion. and Learned
Member might deride what he had to say, but the
story was not hell' told.—(Citeers and much laughter.)
The Irish landlords would not grant leases to their
tenantry, it was said, but why should they, when they
found them arrayed in opposition to them at the hus-
tings l--( Loud cheers.) No doubt he should be charged
with great illiberality of sentiment, but, thank God, he
did net live within the limits of the ;re t potentate—
(Mach laughter)--and if the lion. and Learned Mem •
ber came to Donegal his reception would not be better
time it bad been at Belfast. Why; when it was known
that he and his brigade were about to go to Belast,
to dictate what measures were to be adopted, and what
measures were to be repudiated, it roused the energies
of the county against them. They derided the country
gentlemen, 'they abused the landlord?, and decried the
magist rates, ale, in short, everything that was considered
respectable in the country wa.; the subject of their abuse.
The Irish petrel° did net want leases from landlords
whose aonds they could depend upon, ai ccs'taialy as they
could upon any document, and they always trusted to the
landlords, excevt in some county where the spirit of in-
subordination had been introduced by some club or some
agitator who endeavoured to set the people against their
hart fries 's, the landlords. The landlords hoe done their
duty to the country, when the Government had shrunk
from theirs. The Government had shrunk before, and
succumbed to, the ns,itators, while the landlords had
boldly stood out and opposed them.—had protected the
people against them, and had asserted their own natural
rights. Tley had done so in a manner so effectual
that in a short titre not even such a measure as this would
be sufficient to enable a Whig Government to rest upon an
Irish majority for carrying out their radical principles. The
Irish landlords had done themselves immortal honour by
resivieg teis despotism, while the Irish Government had
eeereee i themselves, by prostrating themsels C 3 before the
aeitatorrs (Cheers.) [lc was supposed that the Hon. and
Gallant Colonel had cor.cluded his speech, and cense-
quently sere al Members rose. Among others Mr. Howard,
reed tlin-e vas a loud call for " the new Member." Colonel
Conolly, believer, amidst roars of laughter, turned to-
wards the Speakee and said--" Sir, I am sorry that Hon.
Mambars ate so impatient, but I am afraid I must detain
then a great deal longer."] The Honourable and
Gallant Colonel then went on to say—He had long
been in Ireland ill a prset'eal stati in of life—
( Laughter from the Ministerial leachee ) Yes, in a prac-
tical station cf. ii e. Genilemen might ridicule the ex.
preasi in as much as they pl. ased. His life had teen one
of positive labour. It had been spent among the lower
orders ; and he would vectors to say, however presump..
tuous it might appear, that no one was more conversant
with them than himself. If ever there slat anything in-
jurious in the way of legislation far Ireland it was
tie 40s. freeholds. He had said it over and over
again in that House, and the last time he said it
the predecessor of the present Speaker, Lord Dumfernline,
apt eared so struck with what he said.—( Loud laughter
from the Ministerial side of the House.) When Hon.
Members hid done laughing,: he would finish what he had
to say. Lord Dunfermline called upon him, and said that
his views wcre precisely those to which Lord Chancellor
Ponsonby Lai attributed all the evils of Ireland. —( Hear,
bear.) Hon. Members, in their desire to enfranchise a
great number of paupers, sought to i itroduce a subdivi-
sion cf lands so minute, that no man who had a family to
support could supply them with the common decencies and
necessaeies of bfe. That would be th a result of the sys-
tem which ea; sought to be introduced. He had sat as a
Poor-law Guardian for ore of the largest unions in Le-
land; and he was of opinion, that if the ere renew eat
adopted as the basis of the e•anchise, the freeholders would
not be able to procure fir their families the f rod necessary
to support them. He (Colonel Conolly) had always la-
boured to enlarge the huldiags of every person with whom
he had been connected. Ten thousand pounds would not re-
pay hem for his efforts to spread the is Ireland over
a larger surface. —( Hear, herr ) The 40s. freehold was
considered one of the giant est boons that had ever brew
colleted upon the people of Irt Line. Hon. Gentlemen
opposite said that Members on his (Colonel Conolly's)
side of the House intended to abrogate the Bill by which
that boon am conferred. He would never have voted for
the extinction of the 40s. freeholders, but rather would
ho vote for their revival than for the creation of a worse
class of voters in their place. On the Catholic question,
on the Reform 13111, and osi the present question, there had
been a plus quoin Punka fides on the part of the Govern-
ment—( Hear, hest )__who court intiy reared out, attribut-
• kg motives which never existed, on these questions, to
Gentlemen; siting upon the Opposition tide of the House.
—( Hear, hear.). The landlords of Ireland had for same
time past been endeavouring to improve and simplify tee
tenure of land, so as to raise the condition of the occu-
piers; het this measure would throw them back upon the
old system of degrading the tenantry for poli-
tical purposes. —( Cries of " Hear, hear.") The measure
wools!, there fire, inflict' upon Ireland the gtea'est evils,
moral, political, 'and social.—(Hear, hear.) He would
also a.k the Irish county Members whether they would
consent to degrade that cliss of 101. voters by whom
they had been elected, and let in a flood of persons who
:could he many degrees more deeendent than the 403.
freeholder:, and who would be in a worse condition by
tl e possession cf tie franchise thaa they were befere?
The object of the lion. and Learned Member for Dub-
lin was to destroy everything constitutional and conserve.
tive while attempting to bolster up a dccrepid and totter.
ing Ministry. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman was
also desirous of extinguishing the Orangemen ; but he'
(C. land Conolly) could not account for the anxiety of
the Hon. and Learned Member on that subject, as such
on erect would reduce his own stock-in-trade, and de-
prive 1 irn of a subject for constant declamation. In his
oeisire, the measure before the Hauseevould degrade the
voter, and endanger the integrity of the empire; and he
should, then fore, tei.e it Lis decide l opposi
Mr. HOWARD sti !, that in rising for the first time
t, address t e House, he Lobe f that Hon. Gentlemen
would extend t) hint that indulgence of which he stood
so much in reed. It was not his inteation to eater
into meters of detail, which he would leave to Gentlemen
who were bet er acquainted with the country for which it
was proposed to legislate; but, as an Englishman, he
would briefly, but decidedly, express his opinion iu favour
of the measuie.—( Hear.) Ile believed that the Bill
would be accefelable to the country et large. During the
kit ieision, when the abuses of the present registrative
cyst. rn in Ireland had been exposed—sheet tie frauds and
the evils cf protracted litigation to which it gave rise had
been exposed to view—rho Bill of the Nob!c Lord the
'Member for North Lancashire had acquired a temporary
popularity. But he believed, now that the Bill was better
understood, that the diffieulti-s which it would throw in the
way of independent voters lied become apparent ; it had
lost the popularity which it once enjoyed. That Belt also
left the franchise undefined; and whatever might be thee
opinions of Hon. Gentlemen opposite with respect to the
Judges, it was notorious that in Ireland a great difference
t f opinion existed on that subject. He would say that it
was the duty of the Noble Lord to put an end to the diffi-
culees of that question, and not to leave it id that sneer-
tsioty which was tee fruitful source of the present abuses
of Irish registra•im. He believed that the measure intro-
duced by the Government would obviate that incon-
venience, and would, by defining the franchise, put
an end to litigation. Ho thought that such a circum-
stance should have induced Hon. Gentlemen opposite
to assent to the second reading of the Bill, and that any
difference of opinion which nug'nt be felt as to the amount
of the qualification should be reserved for discussion in
Committee. Such was the course pursued on the Muni-
cipal Bill, and he (Mr. Howard) was at a loss to conceive
why it had teen departed from in the present instance.
As it appeared that the el. ratisg clause was the principal
cause of the opposition given to the Bill by the Hon.
Gentlemen opposite, he was glad to have an opportunity
of declaring tie reasons why he approved of it. They
should in legislating for Ireland consider the circumstances
of the country. There was, unfortunately, there no amal-
gamation of etas: es as in England. The country was di-
vided into two classes only—landlords and tenants, the
owners and the cultivators of the soil. Those classes were,
unf.riunately, opposed to each other in many essential
points. The former class was Tory in politics and Pro-
tstant in religien—the latter class generally professed
the Roman Catholic faith and were Liberal in politics.
He. would not now go back into the history of Ireland to
show the causes of this estrangement ; it was sufficient for
I his argument That it existed, and Le thought it essential
that they should have the opinion of the lower as well as
the higher classes.—s( Loud cheering.) Tine measure of
the Noble Lord opposite was calculated to throw the fran-
chise entirely into the hands of the higher classes. A vast
diminution hire already taken place of the electoral body,
and the Noble Lord had himself admitted the disinclina-
tion of the landlords to grant leases. That showed that
some alterttion of the franchise was necessary, if they
wished Ireland to be fairly represented in. the House.—.
(Cheers.) He knew it had been said that a class of voters

EVENING EDITION

would be created under the present Bill who would be c
tirely dependent upon their landlords—a pauper consti::
tuency living front band to mouth—( Hear,
Opposition.) The Ike. Gentlemen opposite ci e.,rea
but be thought that objection would have come with
better grace from his side' the House, for he did not think
that lion. Gentlemen opposite would look upon the de-s
pendence of voters as a very great objection—(Chenr_.
from the Ministerial benches.)' If these votes were avattlo
hear, from t
d,
able for no other purposes, their would, .at least, save...oh
landlords what be must consider the pain of exPeill
voters from their homes on account of a
thatdiffer.nt.
of praseonn.—(Continued cheers.) He
such , system of voting was undrc.mted o
iii
Scotland, and unheard cf. in England. He
wouldnot
ld
now stop to inquire whether the English 40'. -"Tie.
franchise would not give a greater constituency t.. 1
land than the proposed measure would to Ireland•
the
knew that such was the opinion of the Noble Lori
Secretary for Ireland. But he thought it had nothing
was told
do with the question. They saw the Irish constituent.)
constantly diminivhing, and a measure was proposeV •
throw increased difficulties in the way of the voter.
der such circumstances, was it a wise course to conotteil
what would be the effect of such a system in England? "
would be like cashing from the lips of the fainting Ina!
the cup that was to bring him nourishment, becaose.i,
might be too stimulating for his neighbour.—(Cheers.?t
But some Members on the other side bad said the.•
they should not wish to see the constituency greatly dim
that
nisLed, and that if Lord Stanley's Bill should have
result, they would be willing afterwards to endeavour to
find some remedy. But would it not then be too lat.,.
when the Tory Nlerabere of the North would be adt1(:(1
to the Tory Members returned be the landlords from tne
South of Ireland ? He did not think sues a course a,
0 wise one.—( Cheers.) It would be a dangerous state no
things if the real representatives of Ireland vvtre
eer
longer to possess a seat in • that House, bet
to be compelled to carry on their deliberations elservbehrcet'd
where the attmtion of the people would be fazed on that
instead of on that House, It was impassible t 3 SaYit
would be the event of such proceedings, but whetev%.
might be, it could not but be detrimental to the b("t .'3OO
rests of the Irish people. Believing that the 131;) 3,,
Noble Secretary for Ireland would establish the freaen
upon a sa isfaotory basis., 'he would give it his hearty sn•
port. —( Cheers.)
Mr. LASCELLES admitted that it was neces'arY.to
define the franchise. fie was disposed to establish
i lit
larger basis. He admitted that the Poor-law
properly be applied as a test of the right of Otteg
slitt(Cheers from the Ministerial Beaches.) M the
ing tbe
slitting what some might be disposed to COllSide' a op. •
principle of the Government measure, he felt bound tediffi.
pose its second reading. There was nothing more
iris, •
cult than to distinguish between what canstituted the to
ciple of a Bill and its details. It was very COCIAOI4
case that the principle of a Bill was involved in its 'pilaw)
but he was disposed to look at the ammot %leen
franchise as involved in the principle of the 13 11.--t ,iog
hear.) Was there he would ask, no danger in thrt.":.b,..
out to the people of Ireland a 5/. franchise which eattl' sel
fore the House recommended by no details? and Iffilet
not but look at the Bill as containing essential Pr'llbe;rdet
that might Le applied to this country. He thOtig"
tot
strict application of the solvent tenant teat was rattler°°
strict a restriction of the franchise, for be thought a, tol/
qualification might be founded upon the rate.--44 is
cheers.) He was sorry that they were again ember
fief
these party contentions, for he was in hopes at the eon-si..
sion of the last Session that Ireland would have be his
lowed a little more rest. Hfully He was award the' felt ;
Noble Friend would be charged with this, but be to
convinced that he did not deserve it, his obPot '
put registration upon a proper footing. 11 t° test
did not sanction the Government in coming down ° le-
!louse and proposing the present Bill. He should thi;.iie
fore give his opposition to the second reading of on u,f.
Mr. GISBOENE the r rose to address the "%eat
Great evils had grown up in Ireland from i's to
system of registration, and those evils were calo°'''t•bnie
impress every man with horror and disgust- Ir°ecdP
evils the Bill of the Noble Viscount proposed a le- If
and he had not heard it said by any one that that tell,
which the Noble Lord had applied would not be •etr'etif:r-
The Noble Lord admitted that the remedies were c
tusl, he' complained that the same remedies wcreo?itle
posed when he recommenie I them to the 11000., of
posed when he rccommen6e t them to the 1100 P. (
tespect to the evils which existed, and the efile'el,'"odiil-
tee remedy proposed, there was no difference °;
oion. There was in Irel and great uncertai .ty resPAcfhad
the franchise. Several gentlemen on the other siu,:,gb
said that there could be no legal doubt ; but even tu'imes
there were no legal doubt, no one would deny r; Was
were prectical difficulties ; that in our country a 'flti•-e is
registered because he had a beneficial interest, ,
enothur refused for the same qualification. TOY let did
say v.bat they p!eased about the Irish Judges, but thso,
not at all remedy the .evil.—( Hear, beer.) ite'tbera
marked distinction between the two Bills, that one 0. Is
proposed a remedy for Ole evil and the other did o',l'dgeo
had been said last yea-, and was still said, that the .111 ards I
ought to agree. What progress had been made Woe
such an agrennent? A.l that he beard was thatd 00
more Judges had joined the dissentients. The! ,4,,ciati
means t f compelling, and none of P'-bria
an agreement ; and yet it was proposed t° erg
in a 13i 1 to remedy the abuses of registration'eee
leave wholly untouched the evils arising from the
tainty of the franchise. That alone was sufficient t 0 The
of the
Member bh cyr
thisfor Bili Exetershosualidd
bteh t
acceptablehc
that the one Bill was decidedly superior to the otlSll
f tne supporters of her Majesty's Governiarti"' beta
another Hon. Member had taunted the Radical
for giving to epinion upon the subject. But althoug-
old e'
had not Indulged • ld
in loquacity ie that debate, bee°, 1,00
e6-utove Orla :dice:lord
sure the House tie:), thought that impartiel4 ',Ore
could only he secured by impel tial represents/60,,n( got'
therefore fully prepared to support this Bill. 5; ns
Gentlemen would on that occasion allow him to polio ie
organ of the English Rule:ls, he had no 11:1"11ear'
making that avowal on behalf a that great body•--`ect
hear.) The principle adopted in this 13111 with rollrode
the
h, r pup
fortencil'Eert= ahatnd w
of aniitih respectifepetide to whichnttcse—e ttcb? pforfre:
for
there could be no dispu'c. Ou ties point he rotst eloril`
milie tto sty that the Noble Lord, the Member for for
Lancashire, had hardly' done himself justicee;Jeced
he belleved that if that Noble Lord had Ott- tha
the Pour-law valuation as a tett, the Noble Viseoue ore
proposer of the present B:11, would have becolen,
disposed to join lie (Mr. Gisborne) lie" rest•
high opinion of what was eat:ed the "bereficial int Joy.
He thought it led to a greateleal of perjury and On ire"
The tolsent tenant test, whatever it might be a° '2,036°1
cni,e, was certainly a good test; if applied t) v4` coo,'r,
made for other purposes, it was as good a (CS/ to;
be found for ti.e registration. But a solvent terland. 11
of 101. was an exceedingly bad franchise for irc111) it ill
the constituency was found to he on the deeliae.ior the .
said that they might come to the Legislatara felt
purpose of having it erilareed.—( Hear.) He Nrt",..
deep obligation to the Noble Member fllore ite;
Lancashire fur the course he had taken. They, 'heeen9-.:'
sorry for it—on ti:e contrary, they were rejoiced' d
now. they could go before their const.tuencies Oho 0
out the advantages of a Liberal Government over ttha isl„.
a Tory one. The violence of the Tory party was i°
vation of the Liberal once The la ter bad laii‘tdeeria'
apathy, but this would rou c them. He would o,oolo'
the House Lrther, but ho would g:ve the BM bas
•
suppc
Mr. CHOLMONDELEY stood almost jo thee s
posi• ion as the lion. Member who spoke lust bet,,obtit; ee:
was tne first time he had taken any part in a P; tgelie`'•'
bate, ane he met id to meet with the same kind jou! err
—(Hear, hear.) flu had attended closet, to ill' "'co sOr''l
ments put f niveard in that long deb.te, and bacr3,:
prised to find that the most impo:tant point, vat'the
,bed %;
chise, mat either thrown overboard entirely, or tett .01
lightly upon as if the two 'questions of registratioo
,;* the
fcarrne I the substance of two distinct Bills. H° g:e
Bill his de:Hed opposition, on t!le ground that, d it •
d e
50
guise of a Registrati,n Bill, they found tacka, t
chute called by a Noble Lord a collateral Meal's „ to ut,s;;l
addition to the franchise. That was a mild ebra'e'l te•
when speakine, f a clause that would detrfislott-1
franchisr.—( Year, hear.)
Lancashire had well denominated the Bill as a es el
f ran Bill for Ireland. It was a Bill that se 80(re t
likely to he like the dragon's tet,th —being sewn soe.voi
would be more likely to spring up a harvest of, .00
The Noble Membcr low ge-.1
as even that country had too, er seen, than be, ai bear. '
it would be, a blessing to I e'a id.—( fl: ar, bro.,
ot i•
They had beard of the extent of the power of
very ',f the, •
lie priesthood in Ireland. lie would soy
them, further than that he was sorry to see ye:.sons vile re-;
theiittle
sacred character inteafering in pelitieal matters.
.5,00 o'•
grettel also to find that there existed a groat act,)
intimidation, • and the voter knew not how II v ted 1-hr
placed e•eveen two opposing part'ee ae nildeigars
the obnoxious candidate, he was set ved with d• ld
nteice that bit house would be burned over bi,4 s'e,an
11
feared the Bill would create a class of voters 'l;e iator
not have the power or moral influence to Te3i°sed t-
midation. thie great a-gument that bad beep °sea
the disproportion existing between populatie,n •it
constituencies. If that were good for glPiele'liratire. 0
but a lamentable proof that property
valueless in Ireland, and it showed was cwllo,oolo,
efforts of poli ical agita.ion. But that was Ifor r'l ye
lowering the franchise—it was rather a grow id that y
the standard of the voter. It had been saiia ~et re, I
were on the verge of war, and that tbey cone totbe e
upon the assistance or support of the Wall Pe ) 'N
clearly the
resso? lc se
alibi .
demands were not conceded.—( Hear, bea"welght •
wished that such an argument would have neid resist .0 -
that House, and that they at all events tv°o, a„a ref
midation. The question was;an important
jeonti'se to deer
nant with good or evil, and it behoved the I at least at
and th;t
upon it calmly and dispassionately, to force "ele-r.
stigma would not attach to thorn of graetMei
_ow whet...
4,;,
they refused tat reason. He was anxious to It.flentinn, of lit,
if the measure were carrie-1, it was the in'
riscipie es•bs,
Majesty's Government to carry out the 'faele•Pet would be
regard to England and Scotland. Ili,
viscieg
gained if he had succeeded, in any way, in crl and el
House of the great importanc of the subject:rontic
should therefore only say furthere that it st
to oppore the second reading of the re QS
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said, that after._ should
it)
ia
length to which the debate had extended, ac
lengt" into of
feel it to he his duty to go at any grcat
en treated ,e•
details cf the measure, though they had bed P',4
at great lergth by some Hon. Gentleine ..7reeerved
ceded him. He thought these bad betteer.,D., would 874
the Committee, to which he hoped the as as in 10:if
1110119 • from
representative, he would briefly take that oppo be goe
representative, to express the reasons disToicyro;sb
was
abicsair.)
support. He could not altogether vie
Member for
the measure of the Noble Lord the Me „_e woo
Lancashire, but, however, he would copula
__,AO.OO.
much as possible to the subject matteroof.
_coo
..neervor,
ootte.
The Bill appeared to him divisible int ter
n r:
tbe y
hear,
Hear, hear, - be'
part, and franchise on the other.--( aud
be
In the first instance .it bid great merlk.
• • withSthiflww:- Pr"
to comprise two questions registratio
could not avoid contrasting ls
.Ithisaff;jor
d o tow"
au b
to every voter of proving his title,
Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) for the

t

~~•-~►

d be c -
r consti-
From the
el e

EVENING EDITION

and also, the facility of retaining that right when once es-
tolished ; whereas the measure of it; Noh'e opponent '
othrew obstacles alike in the way of the fraudulent and h:-
neit claimant, and left both at the mercy cf vexati itis 00-
Ilca-, hear.) On this a-count alone bethought
'4l° Bid erititlel not merely to the yrefcience, but to the
cordial support of et cry Member who wisbe I to see the re-
oistita•ion of voters ploesd upon a fair and satiifaA ry
think that
But he was ready to admit that the mein primiple
of the 13i I was the echo or (if they pleased) theonew
arrangement, of the Allele franchise in Ireland. He did not
Hoe. Members did tight to complain of their
uniting the two questi ins, fur it stood admiete 1 that the
hulk
,i 1 the evils complained of in Irela-id had arisen froth
the mistoiderstandirg and doubt olieh existed as to the
definition of the t lectiva franchise, on which, notwithstand-
'n: all that he had st.i I, it certainly did not ap..
Pear to him (Mr. Morgan John O'Connell) the Noble
author of Ott Ref. ran Act had thrown any great light,
for he hail
never yet heard Lim te'l exactly what he
Tr icant to have been the.franchire by the Reform BOO—
( ar, hear.) The Noble Lord had not thought right to
dc 80, but en the words qut t -el the other night by the
Right lion, the Attoinor-Gentr for I, elald, the.
Nolc ~b r • ,
nrd samu--" But the great
remaining on except the minor
,one of names reainiog on the rcll alter the qualification
had ceased, with this exception the great evil consisted
in the ambiguity cf th! franchise, and whatever test you
take, whether the definition of Sir Michael O'Loghlin, or
lye daition of the solvent tenant test, in either case it
was liable to great ambiguity ; it was liable to all those
•evils, so fully deserted to ue, the putting men upon their
totths as to matters of opinion, and opinion on which oppo-
site parties may nil-v.". It was then, as admitted by the
cur Member for Wokefield whe, upon such just pregites
hind come to such an unjust conclusion, most important, if
they adopted the test of rating, that they should take such
t test as would extend, instead of narrowing the franchise.
le the first place then, the plan proposed wool ] under pre-
Poooteigion -ffive a liberal arid extended franchise, but
it w '
as still more v iluable, because it introduce] a test on
menet fair minds could not by possibility thistakr.
A great deal had beet .skid about the low rate at which
the lraechise was fixerl •He begged to remind tie [lan.
Geotienien who bad mode this objection that if th es, looked to
the table, which gave 'the returns laid Eef ire the House,
they would find the test in the rating proposed by the Bile
Would not exceed the number of those who at present
formed the constituency of Ireland. lie knew it was said
that if the premises were not valued at 51., what right bat
the owner to be registered ? And the answer wee, be-
eouse the beneficial interest, and not the solvent-tenant
teat, had been adopted by the Judges. He would not ap-
, Pell to the evidence of Mr. Leslie Foster io 1829, hut to
authority which the Noble Lord the Member for North
Le'leashire'could not repudiate—he me int his coadjutor in
LH
nZin,o in the Reform Bill, M-. Solicitor-General
-.rampton, who in the debate on the Irish Reform Bill,
1° reply to the Hoc. and Learned Member for Dublin,
at
beyond
I do not hesitate to say, that by the passing of this
"11l Ireland will have a constituency far ,yond anything
tS of which Sco lend can boast, and certainly not much
, oehitql that of England."—(Hear, hear, hear..) How
' 115 Noble Lord could, after that declaration of the
intention of the Reform Bill, say that the present constio
ilency of Ireland was extensive enough, he (Mr. Morgan
°l2e O'Connell) could not understand. But it was not
fur him to understand the reasons of the Noble Lord. It
Was sufficient for him to see how completely the Noble
Lord hid departed from the principles he th ,n held, and to
teniirrd Ilor. Members there were a number of restrictions
gut
• the franchise of Ireland, with n gard to occupation.
+out still, with regard to the number of vot ,r 3, the Noble
thought witild utter:), overthrow all that bad been ad-
'lneed as to the small number of the Irish constituency.
4, Flare," said the Noble Lord, "is a return which shows
that the constituency La; increased in number since the
Jeer
1835. He could account for the Noble
fiord'; i gnorarco oa this question ; but why
4,e consulted nobody on the subject, he (Mr.
Morgan John O'Connell) could not conceive. These
rstorets quoted by the Noble Lord said that in Cerk there
Welo 5,735 voters', in Dublin 4,167, and in Mayo 2,185,
and yet the Noble Lord had heard the Noble Lord the
Secretary
for Ireland state •that at the late election for
Mayo one reason why there was tin contest was that the
loostitueney did not much exec el 700. Now any one who
„new the state of Leland knew that the returns quotel be
`l°e Noble Lord contained the names in the •regiitry of
832, and that a great number of those 0,1 the old reg:stry
.1.
Ire included is the new registration. Now from these
-"urns must be deducted the number of those registered at
the first registration after the Reform Bill, and consequently
though Antrim was registered at 5,263 the number must
• 3 .tiOninished 3.827 ; Armagh 5,654, must be diminished
2742 ; Ccrk 5,738, must be diminished 3,835, leaving not
°',oo voters in a county containing 700,000 inhabitants;
and Mayo 2,185, must be diminished 1,350 reg s-
i.roed in 183 q, and whose '
title had since expiied.
I, Las sure to excite ill-fee in Ireland when they saw
Oco ignorance of the state to the country exhibited by
those svho'came forward to lead the legislation of that
to
oiGluntrYs but th'y would willingly forgive the igoorarice ,f
eecY saw a disposition for acquiring knowledge, or of using
it generously towards them. But the Noble Lord made
of another argument, at which he (Mr. M. J. O'Con-
•, .711) confessed he was astonished. He knew not whether
Lile uoual caution of the Noble Lord had fled when he
;Vide usee of it, but the Noble Lord had said in his speech
-"„ec other night, " I roil not press upon the House the
tionntent /mw e impossible it is to to .ction the application of
• 'is Principle to Ireland alone, bscouse the argument still
eslilY suggest- itself to the rriod of every one who hears
ttr, how impossible it is to withhold the same extension of
tLe elective franchise to the other pars of
e United Kingdom." Now, the Noble Lord
should remember that this was a ewe-hamlet argument,
I,e'l that if it was good ler exteoding Irish Privileges to
'oegland, it was.equally good for extending English and
'notch privileges to Ireland.—( Rea., limn) Di t they
ell:elember the application when lush franchises were under
"O4cussion° He would not go back to the period of
tune Irish Reform Bill, but on the late que Con cf
Vuo'cipal Reform Bill, rights which we e coneseledrto
"'Oland and Scotland were resisted when sought to be
°Wetted on Ireland, and were conferred at last in a
manner even more ungracious than, they had been resisted,
and
i with so many obstacles to their application, that; al-
hough the Act passed last yea-, it was not until the next
thator it would be in operation in Ireland.—( He tr, hear.)
ars this, he asked, the way in which the' Noble Lord,
• the Member for North Lancashire, and the lion. Gentle-
. len, opposite, thought equal rights were to be extended to
cc'end ? Was this their notion of the union between the
countries, which they regarded as so advantageous, that
the Noble Lord declared he ,would resist any alteration
Zen teethe death._ He did not know whether the Noble
Pamphlet,
bard exactly spoken of Ireland as the writer cf a
ielPhlet, who called himself a Conservative Member of
the House of Commons, had spoken of ir, and who, by the
„,
was a great admirer of the Noble Lord, and who
isrre that " England is tOe Royal mistress, and Ireland
her tributary," a phrase certainly not implying equality
iietevOrl a moderate degree of inferiority, but character-
f
the moat reckless spirit of intoletant domination.
11 et Whether the Noble Lord would use these t ems or
H'3
he appealed to act much on the spirit of such language.
lc would ask Hon. Members what had the general cry
rr the Repeal 'of the Union sprung from ?—(Hear.)
tiscontent, with misgovernment, and the ate:opts
to. hose who wished to take.away the rights provided by
" People of Ireland ?—( Hear.) Did they think that
retioing the measure now before the House they would
the discontent and put down the cry ?—(Hear.)
hey could not do so ,but they would exasperate the dis-
loi,t.tteht, and make it show Asclf in more menacing shapes.
threat wuld be th last min that House to make use of
or menacee, either toan that tleuseor to Great Britaic,
li Lif the Hoc. Member for Pembroke wore in the House
tit:. would tell him that they who were loudest to declare
tout they would not yiell to menace were often the first
I,ol'o intimidated, and those who were the most ready to
• 00t5.4 of their courage were often the most tirdy in ex-
it--(Cheers.) F. was absurd to suppose that
„Oilmen woutt in these times rebel noainst their Save-
. but if danger were to be apprehended from abroa f,
easbed was there anything more desirable
• s. *roil- that the whole people should be united,
dadthat that no part of the empire stroold be in a state of alie-
• , too and dhcont it ?—( Cheers.) Every concession
4' Ireland had bees made when GI eat lit itai . was
tom Utiog under circumstances of difficulty and danger;
• 7 eur•cessions so made' are always received with a bad
iv grace
vtre every where victorious, and it was therefore a happy
,(Z, to make concessions to the people of Ireland:—
e'toteoc(B.) By conceding now, they would f.r the first
aintf they generous to Ireland in the time of their success;
that gratitude
would excite in the breasts of the Irish peop!e
eu, gratitude which their past conduct had not been ea--
thetated to instP.—(Cbeers. ) Although he rejoiced for
success of his countrymen in arms, and for the
trio
lilPhs of Blitish diplomacy, yet lie most rejoiced in
thoeit because they gave this opportunity of conciliating
.14 affection, and winning time gratitude 5f the Irish
Hear, hear.) With that feting, and in the
ree. its being tealised, he would vote for the second
ding of the Bill.
nomr • F.. TENNENT said that as many Hon. Members
eniolne ether side, who were opposed to the 5L fran-
lll
°' euere still of opinion that the rest of the Bill
ooiist'hilot he caned into effect without that clause, he
esti:d in assure them that if that part were omit-
, efreet the rest woull fall to the ground. The
or th of the. 5l, clause would be to give the guardians
Nee oor the means of determining who should have a
eleoa°P 4 who tooe—(Hear, bear and in one parish the
tot the of. had
ration `o
tansactually made out, in antici
he of thii Bill becoming law, a list of those who would
qualifi,e '
the Lobo' to vote :ender the present rating, distinguishing
teas, vrals fern the Tories in seeurate columne.—( Hear,
Sear ! Under the claose two shiPings and a penny yer
could nine' weeiocase the franchise, and fine hundrei voters
1l Member
hail for at. annual expenditure cf 501.—(11ear.)
Messy u• Member their reod some statistical returns to
lie so that the Refer n Bill had not faded in the town which
el tills.:/? c'ited ( BelfOsc). Now, wbat, would be the effect
teiuto, ht:RO in Belfast.' According to th r Poor-law
from thlnere wcte 6,365 houses rated atene 51. in Beliest
f to,riut numbtr they were to t:einet the ,rnount f the
,e;t,ec°,lstitueney, 2,105 ; they would hod that the effect
ter, t_ ueoveriinient measure would be to add 4,260 eke
Macy{ bceethe present constituency.—( Hear, hear,) Now it
er't n admitted by the Noble Lord that property, and •
that tui,:e's, ought to he tbe lasis of represeatetton—
Otte ouhase nione ought to possess she franchise who knew
lOirope value Property, and yet by this measure the men of
.1 Belftst would be ol:t7tred by two to one by the
.1 of .-3()
Us, (lan: property. The absurdity, the inconsistency, and
eettlo -.4ct "f the Government, measure was such, that be
the otil'ut help thinking that bonne of the Ge itle:nen on
hesmo/r.o Said' were gmally in the habit of suPPrtil g
etit otlitiZYs Government would refuse to lend them their
Present oceasior.—( Cheers. )
°rill be scarcely Eas an Irish Member, thought
itieJ in giving a slent vote on a
hs'o.o"oo_ at a terisis, affecting ye deeply the liberty arid
llo„oorontY of the county which bid sent him there
flit
~t,z,,,-.lii,2tiepArelecizsiobuesr oho had just sat down had spoke
it Oluosgly of the rating tett of the franchise, he thought
pert of the Bill.—(Cheers.) He

thought the adoption of the rating test as Li principle most
unexceptionable—with regard to the amount, t hat was merely
a question of detail. His own opinion was that a 5/. frac-
chiso would not add to the present number of registered
voters is Limerick, and he had a lett 'r from the Chairman
of the Board of Guardians of the Limerick Union, which
confirmed that opinion. With regard .to tie question of the
constituency as compared to that of England—the dio.
parity was so great that he thought something must be
done for Ireland. With -regard to the observations of the
Hoe. and Learned Member fr r Bandon on the conduct of
the Catholic clergy—he did not think it desirable that such
a state of things should exist as should crdlupon the clergy
cf any religion to eater the a ens cf politics, and he was
convlneed- it was not from their own choice, but from ne-
cessity, ;that the Roman Catholic clergy interfere with
elections. No body of men could Le • more assiduous
in their duties than the Catholic clergy of Ireland, anu
they were' ost disinterested Li so doir g, as they depended
solely on the pittance granted to them by their flock ;
aid should a hostile army ever appear on the shores of
Ireland, no persons would be found more ci ling or ener-
getic in repelling sue)] attacks than the Roman Catholic
clergy of Ircl ind.—( Hea-, hear, from Sir R. P el, and
loud chi ern) As a roof of that, he would appei t. the
conduct of the Roman Catholic clergy in Canada, who,
throughout the late troubles, had exerted themselves to
p, event their flocks joining the late insurrectior.—
(Cheera.) With regard to the Bill of the Noble Satre-
tary for Ireland, it had diffused general satisfactien
throughout the country. But he thought if it should be
divested of its provision for settling th franc lose, it would
be divested of one of its most valuable portions. Be-
lieving that the measure would be be teficial to In land, he
should most cordially support the second reading of the
B 11.—( Cheers. )
Mr. SHAW gathered f, om the speech of the Hoc.
Gentleman who had just sat down, and fans that of all
those who had preceded him, that the c was now scarcely
on either side of the House any Gentleman who was not
pet eetly aware tat the question they were discussing was
a question on the principle cf the franchise, and not of the
mr thod of registration. Let it be granted that it was, as
hie Noble Friend had described it, a pustsci ipt to the pat e
yet still it was lice the poseseript to a lady's lett-10 which
contained the gi t of the correspon leer e. Whether it
was to be considered as a pirf ,ce or a teat, as had been al-
lowed by the Noble author of the Bill, no Gentleman in
that House could be unaware that the question they acre
discussing on the second reading of that lii 1 was the qucs-
'lion of toe franchise, and not of theiegist-ation avotars in
Ireland—it was whether they should submit ste a b/. occu-
pancy franchise in Ii eland for the present 101 prctit fett.-
chi e in count', s, and for the 101. occupancy f-anchise in
towns. The .argument was arlmitte Ito Le that by the
Right Hoe. Gentleman the Secretary at War in his
spee:l-, and sti 1; more was it admitted by two Right Hon.
and Learned Gentlemen who had spoken on the other
side—lie meant the Right Hon. and Learned Attorney-
General for Ireland and the Right lion. and Le trued
Vice President of the Board cf Trade—by the entire
absence of all reference to it in their speechee.—( Hear.)
He beliesel that Hnn. Gentle.nan opposite thought it
much wiser to entangle English gentlemen in the &tails of
the 811 of his Noble Friend, which was not thee before
the House, than to bring their minds to the real question,
which was whather they were prepared to depart from the
Reform Bill.—( Hear.) If they a ished to test the tincerity
of the desire of Ministers to amend the Irish Regigration
I iw, they had only to look at the history of Vieir legislation
for the last f:w years. In 1835, and at other periuls
sites, the Secretary for Ireland 'and tile Law Officers
of the Crown in that country had brought forward mea-
sures,on the subject which they had introduced relectaatly,
and canied on slowly. They had ultimately abandoned
them all, although, instead cf bring opposed on -1 is
(Mr. Shea's) rile of the House, they were sti-
nt el Oct in their efforts by Hnnou eh le AI emters
around him. At length his Noble Fri end, the Month r
for North Lancashire. determine 1 th t the admitted evils
of the present system should no longer continue. He had ac-
cordingly brought forward the measure which had since caused
such excitement within and out of the House—a measure, how-
ever, which he (Mr. Shaw) sincerely believed deserved the
character which the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary at
War had given of that introduced by the Noble Lord opposite,
namely, that it would admit good voters and shut out bad ones;
while. on the other hand, the Bill of the Noble Lord the Secre-
tary for Ireland would only tend to put bad voters on the re-
gistry, and keep them there.—(Hear, hear.) The measure of
his Noble Friend had been met by much personal abuse. But
he should say by very little argument directed against
the provisions of the Bill. How had it• been met by
the Irish party ? Last year the Noble Lord the Se-
cretary for Ireland, had introduced a measure very
appropriately called by a leading Liberd journal in Dublin,
and by way of compliment, too, " an embarrassing Bid." The
Noble Lord now said, that his 13111- was bold and open, and
manly. He (Mr. Shaw), admitting that the Big as' s bold—
it was even reckless as regarded its real object.- but he should
say it was a covert measure, and that it was, brought forward
under false pretences as regarded the purposes it professed to
have in view.—( Hear, hear.) He had heard the proposal of
the Noble Lord, when he asked for leave to introduce the
measure with astonishment and alarm- It was riot that the
Noble Lord was over-squeamish in party pelitica, or that he
did not consider the Negate Lord a promising disciple of the
Movement. But still he did not think that the Noble Lord
could have been induced after his own profession, to have lent
himself to a project which would unsettle the measures of 1829
and 1832. He believed that the measure was fraught
with mischief to Ireland, and tbat it would de-
atroy the hopes of the permanent , prosperity and
peace of that country. The peculiar position of Ireland, in
connection with the Bill, had already been touched on, but
he wished to add a few words on that subject. There was no
Hon. Gentleman, he apprehended, would deny that the great
source of the evils of Ireland was to be found in the subdivision
of land. and the imperfect state of agriculture there. The
Right lion. and Learned Gentletnan the Vice-President of
Trade, had said last night that it was the efforts of the Irish
landlords which abolished the forty-shilling freeholders. He
believed that the Right Hon. Gentleman was altogether mis-
taken in that opinion. It said, he remembered, that Committees
of that House were held in 1825, before which the Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin, together with Mr. Blake, and many
other gentlemen of the same party, were examined ; and Owe
Hon. Gentlemen were the principal witnesses for the expediency
of abolishing the 40s. freeholders. Mr. Blake went so far as to
say that he considered their abolition and the establishment of
a higher franchise to be essential to the peace and prosperity.of
Ireland, as it would tend to a better division of land, and to
the establishment of a substantial yeomanry, and still more
because it would tend to give its due weight to property in con-
stitutin,g the basis of political power in Ireland. A Report of
the Railway Commissioners had been published in 1b32, and
the late Mr. Drummond stated in his evidence before
them, that, in hisopinion, the division of land into small farms,
and their subdivision again into smaller portions, was the prin-
cipal cause of the present impoverished condition of Ireland.
Ile stated that the landlords had two motives for adopting the
system; first, the desire to swell the amount of the rent-rolls,
and next, the wish to possess themselves of political power and
influence at elections. Mr. C. Lewis spoke also of the
effect of the 40s. freeholders in this respect, and all the
nesses agreed that from the abolition of the 40s. freeholders
the condition of the country had improved. They said that if
that system continued,it would have reduced the tenants to the
lowest state of degradation. Mr. Nicholls said that the Poor-
laws, if established, might not at first work well; but they would,
he thought, help to aid the country in getting overits present
state of transition. He said he meant by that state of transi-
tion the period which elapsed between the system of small
holdings and the subdivision of lands which now prevailed in
Ireland, to the better practice of large farms and. more scien-
tific husbandry. That period, he said, was always attended
with difficulties and struggles, but he added that the Legislature
helped as much as possible to shorten its duration.
He (Mr. Shaw) would try the Bill of the Noble Lord the Se-
cretary for Ireland by that test, that landlords of Ireland
were now lending themselves to shorten the duration of that
state of transition described by Mr. Nicholls. It was but a
few days ago that a meeting was held in Dublin composed of
gentlemen of all parties for the purpose of forming an Agri-
cultural Association, and with the view to introduce an im-
proved state of husbandry into Ireland. He was sorry the
Hon. Member for Liskeard was not then in his place, for he
thought the observations of that Hon. Member in his speech
of last night in regard to the Irish landlords were moot unjust,
most uncalled for, and unfounded. He admitted that the
Irish gentry did net in general possess the wealth of
the gentry of this country, but iliey were compara-
tively poor, and mere thinly scattered over the coun-
try. But he must say, that as a body there did not
exist anywhere a class of men more benevolent, more charitable,
and more indulgent in every way to their tenants, and to the
poor of their neighbourhood, or at the same time more anxious
to promote their comfort by every means in their power than
-the landlords of Ireland. But i was one of the evils which
Ireland had to complain of, that gentlemen, like the Hon.
Member for Liskeard, talked of that country in n spect to
matters of which they were profoundly ignorant. The Hen.
Gentlemen said that there were two parties in Ireland—that
all were either Orangemen or Radicals. In that opinion the
Hon. Gentleman was entirely mistaken. lie (Mr. Shaw) be-
lieved there was a large class in that country composed of men
of all politics and of ail religion:, who were sincerely. anxious
for Peace, anti were desirous of' ro-opera'ing for the improve-
ment of the country, if they we e left free fi om agitation and from
leg,slative experiments such as. the Bill then before the House.
The lion. Member for Liskeard must have derived his views
from his new instructor the lion. and Learned. Member for
Dublin. That Hon. and Learned Gentleman had said the
other day that Mr. Blacker went the circuit wearing an Orange
badge : there was not, however, a word of truth in the state-
ment. Mr. Blacker had given it his most positive denial,
stating that it was contrary to all the opinions and practice of
his life.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Member,
however, had made no apology, and had expressed no regret at
the error into which he had fallen. The statement had served
his purpose for the moment, and there was afterwards no de-
nial of rt.---( Hear, hear.) The ideas of some Hon. Members
with regard to Ireland were completely one-sided. He would
tell the Hon. Member for Liskeard that the Irish landlords
were as honourable a class as any in this country, and the
Honourable Gentleman should have been more cautious in
his statements respecting them.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
He would not deny that the excitement, the political excite-
ment, of the last few years, had caused the want of leases in
Ireland. The introduction of the New Poor-law into Ireland
had been a great experiment, and all these things were matters
for the consideration of the landlords, and operated upon them
and prevented leasing. But supposing that was not the case,
did the Bill of the NOble Lord apply any remedy ? What new
impression, he siouldask, had come-over the Government since
1532, or over the Noble Lord? In the debate of 1839, Mr.
O'Connell, in introducing the measure, stated, that what he
proposed was to reduce the franchise' to Si. Now, what did
the Noble Lord say to that? Why, he refuted even leave to
the Hon. Gentleman to lay .the hill on the table. He said he
could not but think if the motion was assented to, it would
be in direct contravention of the settlement that accompanied
the Emancipation Act in 1829, and the .ettlement made by the
Reform Act in 1832. And the Noble Lord having expressed
these sentiments in 1839, and repeated them again :n 1840, he
introduced that Bill now before the liou e, Ns bieh contained
the very provision§ he had so much deprecated. Much had
been said on the questlen of population. Now, he was free
to admit that population ought to bp fairly represented, and
lea thought, looking at the population 111. jeelend, that it was
fairly napresented. if he thought the present 14 would
prove a blessiog instead of a curse to Ireland, he would give
it his support; tint t,ige mass of the freeholders that would be
introduced by the present BM wituld be worse than the 40s.
freeholders. The Bill of the Noble IJON, in his opinion,
would he found to be insufficient for the purpoe -s for 'Thigh it
was intended ; its provision= were simple enough, but
vided an insufficient test, lie was persuaded that no Act ef
Parliament could cure.the defect ; dikerences must continue
to arise, and to whom could they be referred, if net to the
Judges? Upon what ,ground did the Noble Lord change the
opinion which he had expressed in 1839? He (Mr. Shaw)
contended that , at that moment, there was in the repre,..enta-
tion of Ireland a preponderance in favour of population over
property.—( Hear, hear.) Ho entertained great respect for
many of the lion. Gentlemen opposite, the represent,:

tives of Ireland, but he would ask if they were not
indebted for their seats in that House rather to
agitation than to the influence of property'—(Hear.)
What was it, .then, which induced the Noble Lord
to bring forward this measure ? Was it not because the Noble
Lord wai threatened with the withdrawal of the support of the
Hon. Member for Dublin, and of the more Radical Members
who acted with him, unless he brought forward some such mea-
sure as that which was then becure the House ? The Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin in wi iting to his constituency since
the introduction of the Bill, had used expressions in reference
to his Noble Friend, which lie (Mr. Shaw) would not disgu.t
the House by repeating, and the language of the Noble Lord
and the Right Hon Gentlemen the Secreiary at War, tended
to encourage such language.. The Right Hon. Gentleman the
Secretary at War, had-referred to the arming of France as a
reas4n for the passing of the measure ; his language was that
France was arming while they were disfranchising and
pulling down bulwarks. Perhaps some Hon. Gentlemen would
think that that was not strong enough for a Member of her
Majesty's Government. But the sentiment was improved upon
at the Corn Exchange in Dublin. Mr. Barret said, that if
Lord ;;tanley's Bill should pass, eight millions of Irish people
would sxclairn " France and the people, not England and fac-
tion. "--( Hear, hear.) Circumstances may make great dtlie
rence ii the language of Hon. Members, rarticularly in that
of the Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of War. Formerly he
was—

" A patriot bursting with heroic rage :"
he hal sines been
" A placeman all tranquillity and smiles."
Now when danger seemed to be apprehended, when the sweets
of office were about to recede from his grasp, he conjured up
dangers to Ir.land, he cast his eye back to old scenes, and he
told taem of " wars, and rumours of wars,"
" With all the prettiness of feigned alarm,
• And anger insignificantly fierce."
_(Cheere.) He believed, however, that those gentlemen
reckoned without their host. He was persuaded that if any
insane attempt were made, there would be found a large ma-
jority of every class in Ireland, including Protestants and Ro-
man Ceitholiesi who would be faithful to the laws and to the
Crown of this realm.—(Loud cheers.) That was his firm con-
viction.—(Continued cheering.) The Bill before the House
was a violation of the Catholic Emancipation Bill—a depar-
ture from the principles of the Reform Bill. The Right Hon.
Gentleman to whom he had already referred.' had pronounced
a warm eulogium upon his own loyalty. He didnotdoubt that
the lion. Gentleman was now a passing loyal man ; but there
had been other times. There was a distinguished and bril-
liant orator, who, when a Royal Prince was lying upon his
death-bed, had used a figure of speech rather more
pungent than the swamping of the House of Lords or the sub-
mersion of the Royal George.—( Hear, hear.) He sincertly
believed that on that occasion the excited passions of the Hon.
Gentleman carried him beyond what he would othero i e have
expressed, and lie would forbear, the•efore, to quote the words.
*—(llear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman concluded by saying
that if this Bid passed it would confer the elective franchise
upon thousands and tens of thousands who were never contem-
plated by the Reform Bill.
sllr. O'CONNELL said that the solemn duty which he had
to perform would not allow him to enter into anything like a
discursive commentary • upon the speech pronounced by
the Right Honouraale Gentleman. He would only ask
the ft ou,e to recollect his allegation that about
one half of the population of Ireland, more than four millions
of gecoele, were in a state of poverty approaching to destitution.
He stated that fact, and he read docuthents to prove its accus
racy ; and that he had also indulged in a very warm, animated
and elegant eulogium upon Irish landlords. The most excel-
lent landlords in the world, and four millions and a half of tilt
population in a state of poverty ! Let them recollect that
these two facts were stated by the Right Hon. Gentleman.
Whether they were quite consistent with each other he week:
leave the English people to determine.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman hal introduced the name of Mr.
Richard Barrett, and had refe, red to a speech pronounced by that
gentleman. Mr.. Richard Barrett was a Protestant gentle-
man, and his (Mr. O'Connell's) friend; lie possessed great
talent, and when he was assailed lie wan able to d, fend himself.
He (Mr. O'Connell) did not shrink from as.rott in; that he was
his personal friend. Before he proceeded further lie would
refer to a petition which was presented two days ago; one of
the mast successful methods of preventing a petition from being
' attended to was to get it read from the table.—( Hear, hear,
hear.) He would therefore read two or three para-
graphs to the House, because he thought it sliest importan
that English gentlemen and Scoteh gentlemen, especially such
as wee opposed to them, shou.d understand distinstly what
were the feelings and opinions of the Irish nation ; and though
Mr. Barrett might, perhaps, have been wrong in the
length that he went, let them take care that there were not
others, and many of the same opinion, in Ireland. It was
much more important for them to understand what those opi-
nions were than to comment upon them, or even to censure
them in that House. This petition was presented by the
Hon. Member for the county of Limerick. The petitioners
sta:el that althOugh they were most true and loyal in their al-
leg.ance to the Crown, they could not forget that for centuries
the country had . been held and governed as a con-
quered ar.d enslaved province ; that the Irish people held
endured every form of wrong, studied insult, and unrelenting
oppression that the most sanguinary and unholy religious per-
secution that ever disgraced a Christian land had devised, any
sternly upheld by English rule against the Irish people. The
pc:hi iners then went on to state that they had wrung a
portion of their rights from their governors by obtaining Par-
liamentary Reform. That notwithstanding the insult and In-
justice of the Legislature to the people of Ireland, they had ex-
ercised their political privileges for the interests of the country,
for the securing good and impartial government, and the
peace and prosperity of the whole empire. The peti-
•tioners stated that the plea used by Lord Stanley, in
introducing his Bill, was a wilful and reckless false-
hood, and imelored the House not •on false pretences
to deprive the Irish people of their rights and privileges
and in conclusion called upon the House to pause and consider
whether, in the present state of the poorer classes in England,
and the general political aspect of Europe, it was prudent, by
a firmal and insulting denial of equal laws and equal rights,
to force every man to admit that his country and religion could
have no hope of justice or protection from England. He
(Mr. O'Connell) perceived at the foot of this petition the
name of a gentleman with whom he was exceedingly well ac-
quainted, he was, in fact, Vicar-General of the diocese. A
more exemplary clergyman did nut live. He was a man 01
the highest intellectual and spiritual at'ainments—of an
ascetic piety. That gentleman had called upon himself to pre-
pare a petition of that description, and he (Mr. O'Connell)
brought it before the Howe, and read it to the House, in
I order to give them a notion of what the sentiments of the Irish
people were respecting their present position. The next peti-
tion was from a different part of the country—he would read
but two paragraphs. It appeared also to be drawn up
by a Catholic clergyman.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He
had performed a task which he thought it incumbent
upon him to discharge, in order to show that his opinions
were not those of a solitary individual, but were entertained
generally, he might almost say, by the people of Ireland.
They were well aware of what was going on, they were not so
• ignorant as they had been represented by the Learned Re-
corder, whom We was glad to see in such excellent spirits after
his recent misfortunes. —( Laughter.) The people of Ireland
understood the question perfectly—they knew that it was whe-
ther that House would pass a measure to extinguish, the fran-
Chise in Ireland altogether, or one that would extend it. That
that was the real and solid question before the House could not
be disg-uised from common sense, and it was equally clear that
this Bill would extend the franchise, though not far enough,
and that would extinguish it for ever. ;the Right elpnii.
Baronet said, " Fight your battles in the registration courts.'
The Noble Lord, by his Bill, intended to make it impossi-
ble for one to register, and well might the Right Hon.
Baronet say, " fight your battles in a field where all our forces
arc ready, and from which our enemies are excluded." This
was an English act of hostility towards Ireland.—( Cheers. )
The Hon. and Learned Sergeant, the Member for. Bandon,
boasted that a majority of the English Members were against
the Bill—lie made that a boast, and yet he called himself an
Irishman. (Loud cheers.) He would make a present of him
to any one who would take the trouble of running away with
him.—(Laughter,) The people of Ireland had been injured
long enough and often enough, but the present Bill was a worse
insult than any, for it mixed up religiousfeeling and jealousies
along with its politics. That was not a question of locality—
the world was listening to them—foreign countries were not
paying the regard to the details of registration, they would
understand the question itself—they would know whether it
was discussed under pretence. or whether it was met manfully
and like Englishmen. All the nations of the earth, who were
certainly deeply interested in the welfare of this country, would
fully understand the question. France would understand their
present position—Spain would understand it—Ru'sia would
understand it—and America would understand its objects and
its term;nation. They had heard it whispered, but he meant.
to speak out boldly, for he stood there the stipendiary of the
Lisle people—he stood there proud of having enjoyed that con-
fidence for forty years, and that it was not diminished, nay.
probably at that moment, it was being strengthened.—( Hear. )
The Vice-President of the Board of Trade, who was an Eng-
lishman—( Laughter)—he begged his pardon most humbly—an
Irishman—had given them a distinct hint—the Secretary at War
had given them a very distinct hint, almost as distinct a hint
as he (Mr. O'Connell) could have wished to do, and yet he
was taunted for it.—( Hear, hear.) Was he not Secretary at
War, and was it not his business to prepare for any contin-
gency ?—( Laughter.) They might sneer, but how soon they
might ls;.• at war, and then Isis advice, which had been scouted,
would soon be followed. He cared not how he might be ca-
lumniated. He stood there as sincerely to preserve the con-
nection between the two countries as any one amongst them,
convinced, as he was, that it might of the greatest use to both,
and that it could not be severed without great danger to each.
He differed with them as to the mode in which that connec-
tion was to be carried—he thought that Parli-ment was
not the proper place to legislate for Ireland, and that was
abundantly proved by the speech of the Hon. Member for
Wakefield, who spoke strongly in favour of the Bill of the
Noble Lord; he had stated he would vote against it.—(Cheers )
He admitted that enfranchisement was due to the people of
Irelace I, but he could not bring his mind to give them it. It
the I louse were true in its allegiance to the Crown, was it not
their first duty to make Ireland the arm of England in battle;
and her firm fiend in peace? Did not the Hon. Member for
Liski and tell them last night that no country ever suffered so
much from another as Ireland had from England? The people
of I eland knew that they had suffered seven centuries of misery,
that for four centuries it was held as a goad and valid plea in
any Court to plead that the plaintiff was an Irishman, and that
if a man was charged with murder, it was enough for him to
plead that the party was an Irishman. in order to make it no
felony, and that the same price was paid for the head of a Ca-
tholic as for the head of a wolf.—(Hear,, hear.) The Irish
people knew all these things ; they might forget them, but.
never, while they were treated as outcasts and aliens.—( Cheers. )
When the popular idol succeeded, and was in perfect power, then
the English were more sanguinary towards the Irish than they had
ever been under any regal tyrant. Ilutshe would come to more
modern times. He would ask whether the Irish people did not
know the financial robbery that was committed uatin them by
the Act of Union? At that time the debt of England was
four hundred and forty-six millions, while the Irish debt was
only twenty millions. They hail doubled the English debt
i-ce. Then, suppose that the Irish debt was doubled also.
that would give forty epillions she would be liable to, in
place of being mortgaged for the whole of eight hundred
millions. If Ireland ever became. wealthy, it would never be
for herself, but for England's taxes and imposts. Lst them
allow, at any rate, that they hail not given the blessing of
.prosperity when they were robbing them oh their franchise
on the Around of their poverty. He approached another sub-
ject with more of . reluctance, but he did not know why.
Could the people be contented whoa oneeeighth of the popula-
tion had a rich Church establishment at the cost of the
whole ? (Hear, hear.) They had lately obtained a reduction
of one-'ourtla and since then there has been more tran-
quillity in the c: untry than for a long period 'before;
but they were not contented. and lie told them they never
woisjil bee while any part of the imposition lasted ; and if they
threw tlCataddjtjonal teriovance into the cauldron, they must
thank themselvei if it bfiaTea dyer. They had boasted nf the Ulster
requisition in favour of the Bill 'of the,N(We tisrd opposite i let
them look at it; they will find the names 'of '2lt3{
clergymen 9f the Established Church. There they were dr-
reyed 01,,txpt t libertiepseopfithcfrios;noi:tlhe.
ewas,rr rhse
ofw Ocldehaoti
•
Om. way to convey th
Again, reeoffeCt the Irish isVtee not obtained a Corpofate
Reform Bill equal to Englaw . That Bill iiesatsia an irisn.
to them,
_England got a Corporate Rehm in Bill, bit aga n
the people of Ireland were insulted by being told that'the
Church prevented them from obtaining a Bill equally good.
In England every person rated to t \sioor to the !slue of a