The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-25 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TiIURSDAY, FEBRUARY 25, P 441.

beneficial interest of -which the county voter was now to be
possessed? The co nscquence of the measure would be
quite alarming, and _it would be impossible that they could
introduce a Bill of that description into Ireland, without
expecting that there • would be a demand made for the
same privileges in lngland.—( Hear, hear.) They had
already b•en pressed with that argument by the Hon.
Member for Kilkenn y. The mischief which would follow
from the introducti' in could never be realized ; and the
hopes which they .had raised, and which he was quite
certain Gould never be realized, would only serve to give
a new rallying cry to, Ireland, and a new pretext f,r agi-
gitation.—( Hear. ) He was astonished, therefore, to find
the Government int•roduce such a Bill, and that their
most distinguished Member, the Noble Lord the Secre-
tary for the Colonies, had become a disciple of that move-
ment party, whose sentiments, in 1839 and 1540, he had
disavowed. Ministers might rest satisfied with this. that
if they endeavoured t D purchase a short and feverish ex-
istence by sacrifices 'of this description, they must have
recourse to further concession in order to prolong it, and
that this was only one step in advance in an indefinite
progress in which aey must yield claim after claim,
The measure was so fr aught with, dangerous consequences
that he could not be satisfied with giving a silent vote on
the question ; and he would use his humble, but firm ea-
deavours, in every stale of the Bill—if it should have any
future stage, which h e trusted it would not—to defeat it
by his most determined and decided opposition.
Mr. C. BULLER. felt it peculiarly agreeable to be
called on to address tlie Housr, wleno it had been brought
to the calm temper to which it must have beet brought
by the speech which they had just heard. The Boa.
Member for Shrewsbury had vary properly called upon
the House to discuss the question in a spirit of candour,
and to endeavour to make out some measure which should
be for the benefit of r...ee country. He was inclined to re-
g: et that a good deal of personal acrimony had been ex-
hibited during the c. nurse of the debate, and he must, in
'fairness, admit that a great deal of it had been exhibited
by Hon. Gentlemen. on his own side of the House.—
( Hear, hear.) He thought that the Noble Lord the
Member for North Lancashire had really been hardly
treated. There were def,cts acknowledged on all hands
as existing in the Irish system of reg,i;tratior. The Noble
Lord had called the attention of the Government to these
defects, Ile had asked them if they would bring in a Bill
to remedy them. Tney did not bring in a Bell. Some
remedy was require d—( Opposition cheers)—and ,ter
those circumstances certainly the Noble Lord, who was he
must say the cause of all the mischief and confusion which
bad happened in relation to the subject—(Cheers and
laughter)—was certainly justified in bringing his B 11 be-
fore Parliament.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) He did
not find fault with the Noble Lord for bringing in a Bill
on the subject, but he did find fault with him for bringing
in so very bad a Bill as the one brought in by him.—
(Cheers and laughter.) There was, however, one great
advantage which had accrued from this bad Bid of the
Noble Lord's. It had compelled the Government to
bring in a very good Bill.—( Loud cheers.) They were
not now in the awk ward position they occupied last year,
that whilst opposing the Bill of th Noble Lord opposite
as being a remedy that was rather worse titan the disease,
they had no remedy of their own to bring forward. They
had now the satisfaction of be;ng, able two oppose the Go-
vernment Bill to the Bill of tlfe Noble Lord. The
Government Bill was complete in its essential=,
and contrasted in its details most completely with the
measure of the Noble Lord. It was prudent where the
Noble Lord was rash—it ryas bold where he was timid-

it was explicit where he was obscure—it was straightfor-
ward where he was indirect—it wai libtral where he was
restrictive.—( Loud cheering.) The question flit the
House to decide was, which of the two they would choose.
No doubt there were peculiar defects and peculiir evils at-

tending the frill] system of registration. But these evils
were only the natural result of the Irish Bill, and if the
Irish voter had been guilty of personation, of fraud, and of
perjury, it seemed really to have been the intention of
the Legislature to have induced him to the commission of
these offence,. Such provisions, so disgraceful to the
Legislature, he had never seen ; they seemed actually in
tended to tempt people to commit personation. In the
first place, ail persons might register at a place at the great-
est distance front their own residence, and consequently
where they would be least likely to be known. Then there was
the system of certificates. Why, who had ever heard of such
a mode of evidence of the right of voting? It must have
been invented by a pawnbroker or a turnpike-keeper.—
( Cheers and laughter.) Was it to be wondered at when
this certificate gave the right of voting, and might be re-
newed year atter year, that they should have fifteen per-
sons with fifteen certificates, all voting from the same
property.—(" Hear, hear," from Lord Stanley.) I
like that cheer from the Noble Lord," continued the Hon.
Gentlemen, because it shows his candour, for observe it
was an act of his own which has caused all thew evils.—
( Cheers and great laughter.)
Lord STANLEY—Oh no, it was an Act of George
the T4ird.

Mr. C. BULLER would tell the Noble Lerd, that
when he brought forward his Irish Reform Act he
undertook to give a good system of registration. Now
the defects of the system under the Act cf George HI.
were as obvious to the eye of reason before as after the
Reform Act. —(" Hear, hear," from the Opposition.)
What on earth did they mean by that cheer? He admitted
that that system had existed before the Reform Act, but
when the Noble Lord brought in the Reform Act, by not
altering but continuing the evils of the old system of re-
givration, and incorporating them in his own Bil!, he
made himself responsible for them.—( Loud cheers.) It
was not an usual fault with the Noble Lord that his Bills
did not go far eaougb, bat the charge against him here
might probably be made. He was ready to admit that
some of the remedies proposed were sufficiently well calcu.
lated to obviate many of the evils. He approved of an an-
nual revision, at least so "far as to enable them to remove
from the list the voters who had died, or who had lost their
qualification. Because, if they did not do that, they would
depend upon the open voters, and be inciting to perjury all
those who chose to go up and personate dead voters, or
who, having lost the qualification, chose to go up and vote.
The Noble Lord's Bill was good so far as that went, but
the Noble Lord went much farther than was necessary, be-
cause he attempted to introduce into the Irish system the
English system of an annual registration of all the voters,
which had been tried in England and found so bad.—
(Cheers.) He bad never heard as yet any argument why
a man's elective franchise should be put upon a different
footing to any of his other rights ; and why when once it
was established to the satisfaction of a Court of Justice it
should again be called in question.—(Cheers.) He must
now advert to a part of the argument of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Bandon. Ho had interrupted that Hon. Member
by a cheer. He had not meant to occasion him any in-
terruption. He knew how unpleasant such interruptions
were, and he considered them exceedingly ill-bred; but
he had been astonished at a statement which the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman had then been making. That state-
ment in itself was decidedly true, but it did not convey a
true impression ; of course he meant to impute nothing to
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, but such was the case.

The Hon. and Learned Gentleman was observing upon
the argument of the Right Hon. Member for Edinburgh
last night, that in England a man was not liable to have
the same right tried twice over in a Court of Justice.
Yes, said the Hon. and Learned Member fur Bandon, he
is—for actions of ejectment the same rights may be tried
over and over again. Now, that wai true in fact ; but it
was not fair in argument, because it hsd always been
acknowledged that this power of repeatedly trying eject-
ments was a Jeviation from the great principle.: of Eng-
lish laws, and that it had arisen solely from the artificial

manner in which the question was raised by the pleadings
—( Hear, hear, fro:n the Opposition.) He was not now
stating his own opinion as law—(Cheers, and laughter)—
but he was stating what he bad seen laid down in law
books of authority. It was in them acknowledged that
this was a defect in the lsw, and he had always under-
stood that a Court of Equity would not hesitate to grant
an injunction to prevent the trial of vexatious actions of
ejectment. It was therefore not a fair argument against the
general principle. A second objection was the enormous ex-
pense which would be incurred, and the great waste of time

which would be occasioned by the introLction of this sys-
tem, and the great chance that by repeating objections
year after year the legitimate voter would be tired out, and
give up his right altogether. The granting costs provided
some remedy for that evil, but it was not an adeq2ate one,
and it was much better to adhere to the sound principles of
English law, and not to suffer a right which had been once
established in a Court of Justice to be again called in ques-
tion.—(Cheer:.) Another objection to this annual revi-
sion was, that it was attended with at least bait' the ev:ls of

an annual election. It might be very amusing and satis-
factory to some gentlemen to see recorded every year that
at such a place the Conservatives had succeeded in esta-
..

blishing so many on the register, and in such another plica
the Liberals had succeeded in doing the same thing. But
this annual fight in the Registration Court was a great
mischief in itself.—( Loud cheers.) Another argument
against an annual revision was that it would make every
man get his vote through the medium cf a party. He
must be motored in the register as a Liberal or Conse►va-
tive, and must owe his vote to the party who had paidjthe
lawyer to defend him. Now putting all these evils toge-
ther, and taking the argument of the N0b1,..! Lord, that
without such revision some persons might get upon the
register who were not entit'ed to be there—he would put
it to the House whether it was not a greater evil thit th•r
people should be exposed to this annual litigation with all
its expense, waste of time, and other evils, than that a few
persons should get upon the registry who were not entitled
to the franchise. But the great point before the House was
another; it was the question of the determination of the

franchise. That was the really important question for
their consideration.—( Cheers.) It was idle to deny that
that was really the question, and that as long as that remained
unsettled the other questions were of minor importance.
Nobody could deny that that question was unsettled at

preseni—the Revising Barristers were divided upon it—
the Judges were divided upon it, and both Bills, he would
admit, would equally remedy the evil. The Government
Bill would give a clear definition of the franchise; the Bill
of the Noble Lord also went to the settlement of the ques-
tion of the franchise, but it did so in a roundabout and in-
direct manner, and, without meaning anything personal to
the Noble Lord, he must be excused for adding, by as little
creditable a trick of legislation as he had ever seen in any
measure introduced into that House. He would say that if
the Noble Lord's. Bill passed, the question of the franchise
would be set at rest in a restrictive sense. The Bill gave
the appeal in both cases. Now, at first sight, this might
not appear to be connected with the question, because it
appeared that the Judges were divided in opinion, one part
of them being in favour of the beneficial interest test, and
the other in favour of the solvent tenant test ; but when
they considered the opinions which had been given by all
the Gentlemen on the other aide of the House—opinions to
which he doubted not they would be willing to give the
force of a law the moment they could command a ma-
jority, that in all cases the minority of the Judges were
to be bound by the opinion of the majority
(Cheers from the Opposition.) It would at once be seen
that the decision of the franchise was placed in the hands
oF the majority of the Iriih
.11(17es. N,nv,
was thevitinion of that inapt ity Lnkn9wil r Could Oleic
do
tal'itg tenantitsliaet. test be
asedileabi thet?o—sati'isdntgof tituhhai the
not
ufdol;:htuhat hmbleLos;d:ellyoef:

Irish franchise ?—(Cheers.) It was not creditable to the
House to legislate in such an indirect way; what they did
they ought to do openly, and not to shift the difficulty of
settling the question of the franchise from their own
shoulders to the shoulders of the Irish Ju,'ges.—(Cheers.)
The Noble Lord grounded this provision on general ana-
logy : the appeal was given in the one way at present,
it ought to be given the other way also; but such an im-
portant point as the definition of the franchise ought not
to be settled by implication ; and if they put all the ques-
tions together connected with the registration that could
come before the Judges and Revising Barristers, the
whole of them would not be so important as the
one of the definition of the franchise. It ought not to
follow as an indirect consequence of the double appeal.
He proteated,agaimt giving the Judges the power of decide
ing questions relating to the elective franchise. lie won-
dered the Member fsr Montgomeryshire did not almost
start from his scat when the Noble Lord had proposed
such a proceeding. He should like to hear what
reason the Right Honourable Baronet the Member
for Tasnworth could give for assenting to such a
proposition. That Right lion. Baronet had taken a great
interest in the question of the trial of election petitions ;
he had introduced a Bill on the subject, and he had utterly
repudiated the principle of allowing any int, rference in
matters relating to the elective franchise out of that
House. He would ask him, how it was that he was found
among the supporters of a Bill which robbed the House of
all power of deciding on the Irish franchise, and transferred
that power to the Judges ? How could he consent to de •
volve on officera appointedby the Crown the decision of ques-
tions relating to the elective franchise? How could
that be done consistently with maintaining the independence
of tits Judges. It had always been the wise policy of our
ancest ors to keep the Judges aloof from all questions re-
lating to election matter'. Far be it from him to utter any
reproach against the Judges. The Bench was now much
purified, but he would ask every one who hca'd him whe-
ther, tif,er any political trial, the character of the Judge
who presided was not called in question ? Was it not con-
statstly asked before a political trial what were the politics
of the Judge who would preside ? What was it that tar-
nished the character of almost all the great Judges of for-
mer times ? The imputation of political corrurtion. He
did not mein to say it was just ; but it had been made ;
it had been imputed tr Lord Nlausfisld---it had
been imputed to Lord: Kenyon—it had been imputed
to late Judge .% would not now enter into the ques-
tion of the justice of such imputations, but as long as pa-
liticel questions should be brought before Judg -s for their
decision, that imputation would be made against them, and
therefore it was their duty to keep all those questions
connected with the decision of the elect franchise
apart from those Judges who we e to dcci le on
our libertiei, our lives, and our proeertiee.—( Hear.)
Would anybody verrure to say that the only exception
they intended to make to that wise rule was Ireland—that
Ireland was the only country in which political feelings
were so moderate, and that therefore they might safely
leave the Judges open to suspicion ? Now what was the
case? Why, in that country nothing could be kept pure
from party ; the laws in Ireland had never been an; thing
but a means for the rich man to oppress the poor.—( Hear. )
Lord Redesdale had given that account of the administra-
tion of ju•tice in Ireland. Could anybody come forward
and say gravely that there was no noti in of political par-
tiality in the Judges in Ireland ? There was no doubt the
Judges were equally honourable on both sides, but did they
suppose the public would believe it?' Now what had been
the language of the Hon. and Learned Member for
Exeter and the Noble Lord the Member for Lancashire ?
The Member far Exeter, who was a; calm and plain a
speaker as he bad ever spoken to, had talked about
the clearness of the franchise, and about majorities
and minorities, and he had laid the thing down
so clearly that no lawyer could deny it ; and
after that, he could not understand how any
person could think otherwise than that the mince ity of the
Irish Judges were the most foolish persons aiise.—( Hear,
hear.) Ile only mentioned this as pointing out to the
Huti:e that men speaking in the place where they usually
spoke with decorum, had ventured to justify imputations on
the Judges. The Noble Lord the Member for Noah
Lancashire had said there could be no doubt about the
franchise, and there was an end of it ; and his Learned
Friend the Member for Exeter had said it was quite
clear, but be (Mr. B.) would venture to say that his
Friend had made his statement intelligible to the House
by leaving out the most important element, namely, the
authority of thp House of Commons.._( Hear,) In
all ewes where there was an appeal to the
Judges, the Judges had the power to enforce their
authority, but here the tribunal of appeal was the House
of Commons itself.—( Hear, hear.) Ile would suppose
the Judges of the Exchequer Chamber were to decide
against a Judge on some point he had ruled, and he
would suppose that the decision of the Court of Queen's
Bench was against him also ; he was not bound by that if
the House of Lords was with him. He would put the
thing more plainly. He would suppose a Judge going
the Circuit in which Losigford was, and he would sup-
pose that a question came before him as to the right to
rote, and that the opinion of the ten Judges deciding
against the right was produced; and, on the other hand,
that the decision of the Longford Committee, which
placed the man on the registry, was also produced, by
whom could that be decided but by the Appellant Tri-
bunal, which was that House, and which would continue
to be till the law sai I otherwise ? Gentlemen might say
that the decisions of Committees were conflicting, bat
they were the constituted Appellant Tribunals; and ho
would ask, was it in a Judge to decide in the
face of that tribunal ? If it was not a good
Appellant Tribunal, let it be altered; but he must
deprecate such rash measures as the one introduced
by the Noble Lord. He was sorry to see his Learned
Friend the Member for Exeter joining in sneering away
the reverence due to the constituted authorities of the
country. His Learned Friend had said no English
lawyer could stand up in that House to decry the. provi-
sions of the Bill of the Noble Lord the Member for North
Lane ishire. Now he (Mr. Buller) did not attach much
weight to the opinions of English lawyers, when stated
in that House; nor should he, until ho saw a lawyer get
up and state opinions contrary to his party.—( Hear, hear.)
His Learned Friend had said that no English lawyer, of
any reputation, would venture to throw any doubt upon
the question. Now he (Mr. Buller) had talked to an
English lawyer that day, and he had said that he did
not believe that any candid lawyer could get up from
the reading of the Irish Reform Act without
being in the greatest bewilderment, and whose fault
wan that ? Why the Noble Lord's. They had therefore no
right to cast imputations on the Irish Judges and Bar-
risters. He objected to the double appeal to the Judges,
because he thought it bad, and secondly, he thought im-
portant quest:ons ought not to be brought forward in au
indirect way. The Bill of the Noble Lord the Secretary
for Ireland decided the question in a direct way. Oa this
account it was said the Gobernment entertained opinions of
a revolutionary character. He had never supported the
doctrine of the finality of the Reform Bill. He thought
the Reform Bill, like all other human measures, contained
imperfections ; and those imperfections ought to be cor-
rected as much as possible ; but he thought they should not
touch lightly the distribution of the elective franchis6 ; they
should not be constantly tampeting with it. He did not
say that no changes should be made, but the charges that
were made should be settled and distinct ; that they should
be demanded by a large portion of the peopl 1, and should be
based upon some common principle. This was the rational
doctrine of finality, and having adopted it, the question was,
how it was to be dealt with when the provision of the Re-
form Bill would not work? How would they fix a new
test? Ile would say, the Reform Bill contemplated such
a right of voting, and let them try to obtain the constitu-
ency which the Reform Bill intended ; and if he under-
stood the Noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, after
much inquiry, they had found that the 51.- franchi,,e would
give such a constituency.--( Hear, heao ) He bad treated
this question as a simple question of the registration of
voters, and the sole question they had to decide was
the simplest and most convenient mode of registration.
He was using no exaggerated language when he declared
his belief that in 1688 that House had not been called

upon to give a decision that was pregnant with graver con-
sequences than were involved in this decision upon that
Bill. The House would not suppose that he was induced
to make these remarks by a desire to support the present
Ministry, because he felt perfectly sure that if the Bill
should turn out the present Ministry, it would bring them
or a very liberal Ministry back before long. —( Hear, hear,
hear.) They had seen enough of the fate of great po-
pular measures to convince them that a Bill like that when

once taken up by the great parties who had pledged
themselves to it, would become the banner of a

great popular movement, which must eventually carry it.
But he dreaded the policy to which the House must com-
mit itself by adopting the line chalked out for them by
the Noble Lord. It would be a retrograde policy,
marked by all the worst features, attended by all the
most horrible consequences of a counter-revolution.—
( He tr, hear.) He was not ono of those who had hitherto
anticipated any thing very terrible from the accession of a
Conservative Ministry. He did not suppose that it would
be guilty of the madness of a retrograde policy, enforced
by violenco as it must be.—(Hear, hear.) He thought
they might trust to the discretion and prudence of the
Right Honourable Baronet, the Member for Tam-
worth ; and much as he had heard in reproach of that
Right Hon. Baronet, and the Noble Lord the Member
for North Lancashire, he thought that he had always
seen in their conduct traces of feelings and opinions which
raised them far above the Tories of old.—( Hear, bear.)
But Le said that it was the fate of those gentlemen to be-
come, like many bodies of parties, the instruments of the
worst purposes of the worst por ion of their party. " For, what
is your purpose now," said the Hon. Gentlemen, address-
ing the Tory side of the House, " why, simply and plainly
that of re-establishing the old Orange ascendancy._( Hear,
hear, from the Liberal benches.) I am using no mere
terms of abuse, I merely am using the words that explain
my own meaning in the amplest manner. Your object, (con.
tinued the Hnn. Geotleman with great emphasis) is not
registration "—( Hear, hear.) That was not the object on
either side of the House. It was ridiculous to talk of it
as registration. They had not been brought down there
by an abstract love of registrtei ;n Hear, hear.) It
was not registration which crowded those benches, and suf-
focated them all ti,l the hour of division ; it was because
those Bills must decide a great question as to the
destruction of political power in Irelald. " You came
down, (addressing the Conservative benches) to support
your Bill, which, by restricting the franchise, still place
the electoral power in the hands of a small body of gentry,
and will re-establish the old ascendancy party in Ireland ;
and we came here to support a system which by keeping
the elective franchise where it now is, will leave with the
Irish people the choice of their representatives." He had
said that he did not mean to use any terms of abuse, but he
declared that he did not know of any other mode of desig-
nating the two parties in Ireland. Until the generation
that had suffered, and that which had flourished under the
old ascendancy party, had passed away, there never could b'
buttwo parties ; the one, which was called the Orange or as-
cendancy party,striving by such measures as the Noble Lord's
HT to get bock the power of which the Reform Bill had de-
li,: edit; the ether, the poNtd er Catholic port), eudea-
This was the real purpose,
to keen and to exteud the % , AIM, v had.
however it might be concealed.
ic You tell us (said the HQO, Gentleman, addressing the

Conservative benches) that you want to prevent improper
persons from being placed upon the registry, and that you
want to have voters of property and intelligence. We
all know what you mean by improper persons. You mean
those who are elected by the people in spite of the aristo.
cracy ; and we know what you mean by property and intel-
ligence —you mean the gentry, whose abuse of every right
of property and of every political power which they have
preserved, has been the cause of all the sufferings of the
Irish people."—( Loud cheery.) Hawever bold they
might be thought, he would not disguise his
thoughts upon this subject, he would not be led
away, as gentlemen on the other side efien were,
by the threats which were used as to the Irish and
English gentry being in the same boat. With all his love
of popular power and rights he should be as loth as any
man to see the influence of the Eng ish gentry diminished ;
for with all its faults it had in the main honourably and
usefully exercised the rights of property and individual
power. But, admitting that there were many individual
exceptions, he must sey Oat he could not admit that the
Irish gentry had used their rights in the same way. He
viewed with horror many attempts which were made to
give back to the Irish gentry the same power which
tney had before the Ref ,rrn Act, and the Emancipation
Act, because he felt convinced that they would use
their power, as they always had done, to oppress
and degrade the great mass of their fellow countrymen.
—( Hear, hear.) It was for that reason th at he viewed
with horror the policy assumed by the Noble Lord, be-
cause it seemed to hint that if he was successful it would
re-establish the ascendancy of that party, which had been
kept down for the last six years. " And now," (said the
Hon. Gentleman, addressing himself to the Tory benches)
I want t ) ask you one pr ,ctical question. Suppose you
succeed in re-establishing that ascendancy party--suppose
you pass the Bill of the Noble Lerd on your side of the
[louse, and reject that of the Noble Lord on this side,
and thereby give reason to suppose that you arc deter-
mined to enter upon a course, the remit of which will he
to re-establish the ascendancy party in Ireland, what
do you think will be the practical consequences ? It is
easy to pass one Bill and perfectly easy to reject the
other; and there is not the slightest difficulty in enforcing
any law which you may choose to rake on this subject.
But do you think that there will be any moral weight in
your decision ? Do you think that in consequence of that
the Irish people will tamely give up what they have
ga'ned by the hard and long struggle of the last 20 years ?
Do you suppose that there will be peace in Ireland until
the one Bill is repealed and the other is passed. You
have a habit of thinking that all these things are settled by
divisions and elections, and that if you g sin two or three
elections in the one case, and happen to have the balance
of influence upon your aide on the other, you think that by
such means you can re-establish the ascendency
party in Ireland —( Hear. ) I say that this is
riot is question for votes, but for arms to decide—
and I tell you, before you come to such a decision, to look
not merely to the physical force and temper of the Irish
people, but to the circumstances and position of our
foreign relations—( Hear, hear)—which (continued the
Hon . Gentleman, with marked emphasis) you may find
to be very intima.ely connected with the question.—( Ex-
pressions of disapprobation from the Conservative
benches ) lam perfectly prepared for that disapi robatian,
because I think that these are topics to which we shoull
allude with great caution.—(Hear, hear, from the Oppo-
sition benches.) But I think there are limes in which it
would be perfectly childish not to allude to them—( Hear,
hear, from the Ministerial benches)—and I think that this
is one of those ocerei arts, when every person, abroad or at
home, friend or foe, speaks of the alienation of Ireland RS
a notorious fact—when our enemies build their hopes upon
it and our friends view it with alarm." Ho (Mr. Buller)
must remind the House that after all this was not the first
time that these considerations had been advanced in that
House.—( Ironical cries of " Hear," from the Oppasition.)
It was not the first that those considerations had influenced
the I.{.,rialation for that House. They must remember
that every groat improvement which had been made in the
condition of the Irish people, had resulted from the ope-
ration of those considerations.—( Hear, hear.) How was
the first great step pined but by the armed and menacing
attitude of the Volunteers, and by the progress of the Ame-
rican war. When was the elxtive franchise granted to Ire-
land ? Under the influence of the first terries of the
French Revolution. Above all, [Low was the Catholic
Emancipation wrung from the Legislature? Why, it was
not owing to any alteration in the temper of the House,
but it was owing to the fear excited respecting the dispo-
sition of some of the Irish reguneets, arid to the armings
and trainings of some of the peasantry. He would ask
Hon. Gentlemen opposite if they could have a better case
than the history of the passing of the Catholic Emancipa-
tion Act, to show them the utter folly of gains at elections
and in divisions in that House? On the general election
in 1i126 the "No Popery" cry was raised wi,h so much
effect that at the close of the electian the Catholic
advocates found themselves in a minority, and yet two
years afterwards the Catholic Emancipation Act passed
the Legislature. He called upon the House to reflect
upon the possible consequences of rejecting this measure.
He did not wish to • exaggerate. He spoke with perfect
calmness and perfect gravity. " And God knows," said
the Hon. Gentleman, " I should regret such a result as
much as any body." But they ought to look at the tem-
per of the Irish people They ought to inquire whether
their physical force was less now than when doggiest yielded
to it ; and above all, they ought to inquire wtrelifer that was
a moment when they could afford to alleviate their afflic-
tions. He would dwell for a moment on one point which
he thought had not received the attention which it de-
served, namely, the entirely altered character of the Irish
people within the last forty years. The Irish people were
not then the cowering, de;araded, and disunited serfs:which
they were at the close of the last century. They could
not be goaded and driven as they were at that
period._( Hear, hear.) Then, though they had
the same courage as now, they had no organized leader
who could direct their energies. Since that period the
Irish Catholics had become a people. They had been or-
ganized by the most skilful and popular leaders that the
world had ever seen. And by the agency of the most
powerful priesthood in the world, and they had
been attended with constant and unmeasured success.
It had been made a matter of reproach to the Irish
Government that, they had admitted them to a share
of power. But he rejoiced in the circumstance.
All these things had tended to raise their character, and
they could no longer be oppressed with impunity The Hon.
Gentleman then proceeded to speak of the progress of
temperance among the Irish people, and argued that
it was a great development of their moral power. He
also referred to the power exercised over them by their
leader, and contended that this made them a formidable
body if oppressed. The oppression which they bad so
long,suffered had raised in them a feeling of resentment,
and their causes of discontent were not countervailed by
any great love for the English people. Nor could they
be surprised that this was toe case. It was impossible to
deny that the English Government had oppressed Ireland
as much even as Turkey had oppressed Greece. And
though a more liberal course had been pursued during the
last six years, there was sufficient in the language
used by a powerful party towards them to keep up the re-
membrance of their ancient wrongs. They were described
as savages and as aliens; their representatives were de-
nounced as perjurers ; their religion as a grovelling and
mischievous idolatry; and the priesthood, whom they loved
and venerated, more perhaps than any people in the world
loved and venerated their priests, were described as sur-
plicel ruffians.—( Hear, hear.) When he saw a party
using such language as that—a party that had never
willingly granted anything to the people of Ireland, which
had always supported every measure for coercing and dis-
franchising it—though he might regret he could not com-
plaia that that people had relaxed none of their
ancient resentment. What would be the result of re-es-
tablishing the old ascendancy party in that country ? He
did not allude to Irish insurrection, because he thought
there was no danger of that, at least during the life of tire
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin. The people of
Ireland had been taught by him the great secret of resist-
ance to Government. He had taught them that the insur-
rection which was most effective in coercing a Government
was that which never broke out but was always to be ap-
prehended.—( Hear, hear.) This might be novel phrase-
ology, but such was the fact. They had been accustomed
to permanent insurrection in Ireland, and they bad
found for many years that it entailed upon the
Government al the precautions—all the harrassing
anxieties and all the expense of civil war, without having
any pretext for treating the people as rebels. What will
be the consequence of the ascendancy party regaining the
ground which they had lost ? " Why," said the Hon.
Gentleman, " that all the good that has been done for
the last six years would be undone, and that you (address-
ing the Conservative benches), upon a Conservative
principle, will succeed in re-establishing all the ancient
disorder, and insecurity, and terror in Ireland. You will

again have the sympathies of the whole population
arrayed upon the side of crime and the criminal, you will
have to preserve the peace of Ireland by double its present
g irrison; you will have every form of opposition that pub-
lic opinion, public meetings, and petitions can bring to
bear upon you ; and you will have every popular institu-
tion brought to bear upon your unpopular Government.
And what course will you take in these circumstances ?
Why you must have recourse to a coercive Bill, and sup-
press every liberal institution, and every expression
of public opinion in that country. —( Hear, hear.)
He ought then to ask how it was that he touched upon
these topics? But lethim ask whether, in the present state
of our foreign relations, they ought not to use the utmost
caution ?—( Hear, hear.) He saw with feelings of the
utmost horror the indications of rupture on every side.
France still assumed a position calculated to create feel-

ings of alarm ; and in America were to be foundStrOn giti-
di,:ations of the same feelings which led to the late war.
He had a great dread—a deep horror of war, but the
warmest advocate of peace must look at the signs of the
times, and prepare for a contingency. Such a tine was one
that called rather for conciliation towards the Irish people
—it was certainly a time when they ought at all events
not to exasperate them.—(Cheers.) They might want
the cordial support of that people ere long—([-Tear, bear)
—and certainly it was nut a proper time to excite their
feelings.—( Hear, hear.) Ile was not supposing the con-
tingency of invasion—( Hear, hear)—be did not think
that was possible, and if it should happen he hoped a better
feeli.ig would be found among the Irish than in former

time's: But they might want their cordial support—upon
the Irish people they greatly depended for soldiers and
sailors.—(Cheers.) It would be bad policy in them to
excite a feeling among the Irish people that might deprive
them of their services in the time of danger. He ssould not
have adverted to these topics had he not thought the dan-
ger was extreme. He thought it was right to look to
these considerations, and that it was a fair argument to be
used upon such an occasion. They ought to have all the
feelings of the people on their side should war unfortu-
nately assail tho country.—(Cheers.) He was not
wrong in dwelling on the advantages of union ; be was
conscious that was a time for healing►, not wideningdisser-.

sions among ourselves. But the policy of the Noble Lord
and the Gentlemen opposite would put Ireland in the list
of foreign and hostile nations,—( Cheers.) Thi-irc was one
thing to condole them, which was that tile Toryism of the

t'Cit 'fa day waa characterised by very great tirnitiitt,
though, it again in power, there would be none sharpeo.
But if the House .could judge of them by heir

past conduct, they would go on with their present policy
just so long as irritation in Ireland did not menace them
with convulsion—(Cheers) just so long as they could
avoid war, as they did in 1828, 1829, and 1830, by
truckling to every Foreign Power, pat alised as they were
by the state of Ireland.—( Loud cheers.) Bat the instant
the danger came, the iustant the war threatened, the in-
stant the convulsion broke out in Ireland, that instant the
frail fabi is of their wretched policy would crumble into
dust, and the rapidity of their concessions would mark
the folly of their present course.—( Loud cheers.) And
fir what were they encountering that certain present mis-
chief, and Umbra humiliation ? They might suppose the
dangers were not so great as he represented them.
He wishei he could think so, for their own sakes. But
he could tell them that their present insane policy would
not bear so hard upon those whom they now hoped to
supplant, as upon those who might succeed them. Was
it because they might succeed by their juggling in gain-
ing a paltry dozen scats in Ireland ?—( Cheers.) Ten
times that gain would not make up for the execrations of
the Irish people which would be showered upon their.—
( Cheers.) The events of the last six years bad shown
how quietly they could live under a mild Government, and
with how little of justice they could be conciliated.—
( Cheers.) Had they from the first pursued the course
of common prudence—had they even given them the same
degree of conciliation which they had afforded to
the Hindors —(A laugh) bad they respected
their prejudices had they conciliated their
leaders ?—( A laugh.) Had they conciliated them
in the same way as all popular leaders must everywhere
be conciliated ?—( Loud laughter.) He meant to say all
popular leaders except those highly di inte►ested Gentle-
men whom he saw opposite, who had never cared fur
what he was going to mention—by the power, influence,
and the emoluments of office ?—( Loud laughter.) Had
they conciliated the people, above all, by conciliating their
priesthood ?—( Cheers.) Had they attached them to their
country, an every wise Government in Europe had done,
by paying them every due respect? Had they done
that, it was only to be feared that the Irish
people would have been too easily put off._
( ilear, h rar.) Why was it they had always
desisted from that course ? and for what was it they
called upon the House now to deviate from that great
cause under coni.ideratini ; for what object that common
sense did not laugh to scorn, and common humanity and
justice did not repudiate with horror? The Hon. Gentle-
man sat down amidst 1 ,ud and continued cheering.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, did he think that was a
mere :Ilene fur ora'orical display, he would:gledly_bave
given a silent vote upon that occasion, and have left the
answer to the speech of the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman to some one abler than himself ; hut
as the question under discussion was a very important
one, lie begged to be allowed to state his sentiments.
When the Hon. and Learned Gentleman commenced with
his legal arguments, lie (Sir J. Graham) did not think it
would be his duty to follow him, and certainly he attached
some importance to his legal opinio❑ ; but it was consider-
ably
diminished when the Hon. Gentleman, in the can-
dour which he boasted, said that no lawyer would express
an opinion against the party with whom he acted. In
the excess of his candour he ascribed censure to the Noble
Lord the Member for North Lancashire, for the intro.
duction int ), and the continuance of, the system of regis-
tration in lielaud. His Noble Friend demurred to that
statement, and with much justice, for bath his Noble
Friend and Lord Althorp most distinctly stated that they
left the system of Registration as they found it, until
they had some experience of how the system worked in
England. Then again, he wanted to fasten upon the
Noble Lord an immutable preference for the appellant
tribunal of the Judges. Now he denied that, for his
Noble Friend had distinctly stated on several occasions
that he would take any tribunal that would be more
impartial or more trustworthy that might be suggested.
'lka again, in the excess of his candour, the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman suggested to the House that the
Judger might be tainted with political feelings, and lie had
not thought it beneath him to assail one of the justest
Judges who had ever adorned the English Bench—viz.,
Lord Mensfield.—( Hear, brae.) He had also taken oc-
casion to assail the Longford Committee, and while doing
so he was happy to see him cheered by the Hon. Baronet
the Member for Yorkshire ( S:r G. Strickland)—( Loud
laughter)—the Chairman of the Hull Committee.—
(Ulcers.) He rejoiced in the allusion, and the more so
as those tribunals had been put an end to by his Right
Hon. Friend near him. He would not have fol-
lowed the Honourable and Learned Gentleman into those
topics; if it had not been for the excited nature of that por-
tion of his speech with which he concluded. He quite
agreed with him that the question they were now discuss-
ir ; wen one of the very utmost importance. He doubted,
however, whether questions, even more pregnant with im-
portant consequences, had not been discussed since the Re-
volution of 1688. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman

went on to say that many and pressi;,*"
rounded our country, and that it was impossible to view
the shadow of coming events without much anxiety.__.( Hear,
hear.) He ( Sir J Graham) very much doubted the dis-
cretion, if not the patriotism, of the Hon. and Learned Gen-

ticman, in entering into such topics on such an occasion.
He must state the impression which his speech had left
on his mind, and he doubted whether on the Corn Ex-
chang,! at Dublin, at'any time, a greater stimulus was ap.
plied to Irish discontent, even by the turbulent spirit of
English Radicalism.—(Cheers.) But it appeared to him
there was a similarity in the speech of the lion. and
Learned Gentleman, with the speech of the Right lion.
Gentleman the Secretary at War, with which the debate

last night concluded. The attack from that side of the
House, being sharp on the measure of the Government,
They had thought it expedient to shift their ground—
(Cheers)—and had argued not as if the Bill of the Noble
Lord the Secretary for Ireland was the subject of discus-
sion, but as if they were debating the Bill of his Noble
Friend (Lord, Stanley). The lion, and Learned Secre-
tary at War, was no lemy great orator than an experienced
critic, and he designated the Legislative effort of his
Noble Friend the Member for North Lancashire, not once,
but again and again, as a childish effort.—( Hear, hca-.)
No doubt the Right Hon. Gentleman rejoiced in a giant's
' strength, and might consider the puny efforts of his
Noble Friend (Lord Stanley) as childish, but he (Sir
J. Graham) thought his Noble Colleague, the Member
for Yorkshire, with the experience of last year, must have
discovered that this was a very troublesome child.
(Cheers) Last year he endeavoured to smother it almost
at time birth, and this year he endeavoured to change it at
nurse.—( Laughter.) lie ( Sir J. Graham) was quite
sure that if the Right Hon. Gentleman would make just
such a speech as he made last night in some future debate,
and give his Noble Friend an opportunity of instantly re-
plying, he would discover that this child could hit some-
what harder than lie expected, a-id that he would
also discover th it his speech contained something
more than light conceits and impotent puerilities.
—( Cheers.) In the eagerness of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man to attack the measure of his Noble Friend, a speech
which was prepared for the second reading of the Bill of
his Noble Friend, went off at half cock--(Laughter)—and
could not restrain fire for the actual division or the second
reading. He (Mr. Nlacaulay) promised not to go into
details—not to touch the minor features of the Bill, but
by an oversight the greater part of his speech consisted
of attacks of this description, and more extraordinary still
from the manner in which he treated those details, it
would appear that he had not read the Bill of his Noble
Friend (Lord Stanley). What were his two points ? His
first argument was contained in a dissertation on the tor-
ture of annual registration. Now this torture, if such it

was, was carefully prepared by the hand of the Noble
Lord the Secret try for the Colonies, and whatever the
defects might have been of the original measure, they
were carefully counteracted by bis Noble Friend; and the
Right Hon. Gentleman had overlooked the provision of
costs in the case of vexatious objections ; and to show how
the Right lion. Gentleman understood the measure, he
illustrated it by his own vote as a Member of the Uni-
versity of Cambridge. Ile said if he were called repeat-
edly to Cambridge to defend it, he should farego his vote
from disgust at zilch perpetual vexation. Why that Bill
of his Noble Friend provided that if any voter should be
on the registry, ho should not be compelled to attend to
defend his vote, but that he might employ any third
11 party to defend it—(Cheers from the Ministerial Benches)
—and that it should not be in the power of the objector
by summons to compel his attendance. But he now
gladly paused.—(Cheers.) Had he wasted the time of
the House ?—( Hear, hear.) The speech of the Right
Hon. Gentleman was made up of detaiis, and he ( Sir
J. Graham) would rather follow the example of the Right
Hon. Gentleman who had just addressed them, and deal
with greater matters. The Right Hon. Gentleman said,
that the rule laid down for the franchise was the essence
of his Bill, and he also said what he (Sir J. Graham)
confessed fixed his attention still more on the measure,
that this Bill was in the spirit in which the legislature of the
eJuntry ought henceforth to run. Now considering the vast
importance the Right Hon. Gentleman attached to the vital
essence of this measure, be must be allowed to;call the at-
tention of the House to the late introduction of the vital
principle into the measure of the Government.—( Cheers. )
Throughout the whole of last Session the Government had
thought it expedient to keep the subject of the franchise
totally distinct from that of registration. And what was
their conduct at the commencement of the present Ses-
sion ? On the first day of the Session, while the intentions
of hie Noble Friend were unknown with respect to the in-
troduction of his Bill this Session, the Secretary for the
Treasury took the first opportunity on the first day of the
Session, of giving notice, on behalf of the Noble Lord
(Lord Morpeth), of the introduction of a measure to amend
the law relating to the registration of voters in Ireland.
On the 2d of February his Noble Friend (Lord Stanley)
obtained leave to bring in a Bill to amend the laws rel,ting
to registration, carefully avoiding all notice respecting any
alteration or definition of the franchise. On the
same evening after that division, when her
Majesty's Ministers had made up their minds
to support his, Noble Friend in bringing in his Bill,
then, and not till then, was this declared to be the vital
principle of the measure, its very essence, and that which
gave it life. And, undoubtedly, in the great attachment of
the Right lion. Secretary at War to this which he termed
the essence of the measure, he had hardly announced he

so considered it, before he declined (such was the effect
of open questions in flu! Cabinet) that it was quite open in
Committee to deal wi h the 51. qualification, or ev -a with
the term of 14 years.—( Hear, hear.) But he would now
proceed to state, as shortly as he could, the strong objec-
tions he felt to this measure, and they were so strong that
he agreed with his Noble Friend ( Lord Stanley) that if
he stood alone, he would resist the seeJnd reading of the
Bill.—( Cheers.) It appeared t' him to be framed solely
with the object of adding numbers without regard to the
principle of qualification. It had been stated by the Hon.
and Learned Member for Woodstock that this principle
had been at all times recognised by the law of England,
and that the difference between the principle of qualifi-
cation in counties and boroughs was, that in counties it
had always been a fixed interest, or estate in land yield-
ing profit, that constituted the qualification, and in boroughs,
occupation with residence and with payment of rent. Now,
this Bill appeared to him to be entirely subversive of the
principle of quabiication in counties, and he could not see
that by tae propc,ition of a 51. ~aivation without payment
of rent and .;without prat, the prineple fecognizpd
was at once overthrows.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")