The Sun.
London, England, 1840-05-05 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, MAY b, 1840.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said dine should be such a report in future.
Vote agreed to.
Oa the vote of 20,000/. for a model prison,
Mr. G. KNIGHT asked what was the reason of
such an expense, when there were so many prisons in
‘Vestminster ?

Lord .1. RUSSELL said there had been great dis-
cussion as to the propriety, not of the solitary, hut of
the separate system of conhooment.—(Hear, hear.) It
had been urged that it would be unfair to charge on
the counties the expense of trying an experiment
hitherto untried in this country. He believed it would
be a very beneficial change.
Lord G. SOMERSET said, that although he was
not anxious to increase the deficit which the Chancellor
of the Exchequer would perhaps propound on Friday,
he wished it might be inquired into whether the expense
might not be ultimately, diminished by the grant of a
larger sum in this year.
Mr. FOX MAULE said that the model prison
had been commenced a few weeks ago, and was going on
satisfactorily, and it would be completed as soon as
possible.
Lord G. SOMERSET trusted that the prison would
be completed at the earliest possible moment, in order
that they might have an opportunity of seeing how the
system woi ked before it was adopted generally.
Sir E. KN ATC HBU L L felt quite convinced that
140,0001. would be expended before the prison could
be completed, and he would put it to the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, considering the state of the public
revenue, whether the present was a proper time for
incurring such an expense.
Mr. BRISCOE was one who had urged upon the
Noble Lord the necessity of adopting a model prison,
and he believed in doing so he was backed by the greater
portion of the ceuutry.
Sir S. CANNING was glad to hear that it was the
intention of the Government to carry out the princip:o
of a model prison.
After a short discussion the vote was agreed to.
On the vote of 2,800/. for a mining model museum,
Mr. HUME said be thought that a separate esta-
blishment for models was not required, and it was in-
terfering improperly with the province of the British
Museum. Ile should propose to suspend the vote until
a Committee had been appointed on the subject.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER be-
lieved that the establishment of a Mining Model Mu-
seum would be productive of the best results.
Mr. HUME merely complained of their laying out
their money by piecemeal ; it was throwing it away,
and doing no good. The buildings were totally unfit
for the purposes of a public building.
Mr. GOULBURN and Lord SANDON sup-
ported the grant as a merely temporary measure, but
they hoped Parliament would at a future time obtain
such a building as would be worthy of the country.
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote proposed was 5,0001. for erecting a
hall at Edinburgh for the use of the General Assembly
of the Church of Scotland.

Mr. C. LUSHINGTON felt himself bound to op-
pose such a grant. He did not see why the people of
England, Ireland, and \Vales should be taxed to provide
accommodation-for a . Church which was now in a state
of contumacy against the highest court in the country.
Mr. EWA RT did not think that the Church of
Scotland, although he did think it one of the hest esta-
blishments—he did net think it, 'in their present state
of insurrection, had any claim upon the public purse.
Mr. HUME objected to expending 5,000/. upon a
building which would only be used about five days in
the year. Up to the present time they had met in a
church, and they ought to continue to do so. He
would certainly take the sense of the House upon
the grant.
The LORD ADVOCATE said, some years ago
the General Assembly had a hall of their own, which
was taken from them to increase Church accommoda-
tion, upon a promise that other premises would be
provided for them, Besides, the proposed building was
intended to be used as a church, when not in use by the
Assembly. Hon. Members were not well acquainted
with the question. or they would have refrained from
stating that the Church of Scotland was contumacious,
or in rebellion. It might just as well be said that that
House was in a state of rebellion upon a late occasion,
when they were defending their privileges.—(Hear,
hear, from Col. Sibthorp.)
Mr. HAWES thought the vote ought not to be
agreed to, if it could not be better defended than it
had been by the Learned Lord. For a period of eleven
years the Assembly had met in a church without incon-
venience.--(No, no.) He had seen the place, and he
thought they had sat there without inconvenience -to
themselves, although with much to the Government
and the public. That inconvenience had been so
great, that he cared not that they had no place to sit.
It was said that there was an understanding with the
Government to provide other accommodation ; but was
the present Government bound by any such understand.
ing? He thought that they had turned over a new
leaf, but it appeared he was in error. He did not
know whether the Church was in rebellion or not,'
but at all events they were in absolute oppo-
sition to the law, as declared by the highest
judicature in the country.—(Hear, hear.) Nor was
there the slightest analogy between their case and that
of the House. The House was maintaining the privi-
leges of the main body of the people—the Scotch
Church was fighting for their own selfish views.
Mr. F. MAULE contended that the vote was one
of actual justice. It would be merely returning that
accommodation to the Assembly of which they had been
deprived under a promise of restoration, and it was to
be used as a church while not in use by the Assembly.
That was not the occasion to defend the Church.
When the proper time came be would be prepared to
prove that she was fighting for 'that which was ardently
desired by the great body of the people, and what, in his
opinion, was her right.
Mr. C. LUSHINGTON could not abandon his
entire conviction of the contumacy of the Scotch
Church, notwithstanding all he had heard ; and he did
not see why the people of England, Ireland, and
Wales, should be taxed for such a purpose.
The vote was then postponed.
The next vote of 70,000/. for defraying the expenses,
salaries, &c., of the two Houses of Parliament, after
some observations from various Members, was agreed to.
On the next vote of 51,000/., salaries and other ex-
penses of her Majesty's Treasury, being put,
Colonel SIBTHORP complained of ,the increase
which had taken place in amount of this vote.
Mr. HUME said the Hon. Member should recol-
lect the great increase of salaries that had been occa-
sioned by the new arrangements in the Post-office.
Colonel SIBTHORP did not complain of the sa-
laries of the clerks, he wished they had more, and the
Lords of the Department less, for they did nothing.
After a few observations from Mr. GOULBURN,
the vote, with the next, of 19,3001. for the Home De-
partment was agreed to.
On the next vote of 127,234/. for the Foreign Depart-
ment beinr, put,
Mr. GOULBURN said he could not conceive
how it was possible the charge for letters for the Fo-
reign Office of 64,000/. could be correct. The
whole of the 127,0001. voted for the Foreign
Office Department, was substantially under the con-
trol of the Foreign Secretary ; as whatever might be
saved, for instance under the Postage head, would be
applied by that Minister perhaps ; so that it was
important to see how the charge on postage stood as
to other Departments. When one Department stood
charged with 6.000/., and another with only 9,000/.,
and the Foreign Office with 64,000/., he really must
say, the disproportion was most glaring, and the charge
most enorrrous.—(Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said the estimate was framed by the Post-office, upon
the average charge of the office, but he had every reason
to believe it would be reduced. At the same time
the public must be aware the postage of the Foreign
Office was much more heavy than that of any other de
partment.
Lord PALMERSTON said the expenses of the
Foreign Office were necessarily most considerable as
to postage, but he had been framing regulations to
prevent abuses likely to arise under the new system
Col. SIBTHORP observed, tee ad seen it in the
papers, that fifteen gooseberry rs had been sent
under the new covers by post. —(A laugh.)
Mr, HUME asked if the expenses of Messengers to
other than European states were included.
Lord PALMERSTON said they were not.
Mr. GOULBURN said, he thought this only
showed the charge of 64,0001. to be moat enormous.
Mr. WARBURTON thaught this estimate must
have been the result of the old system of abuse under
the franking.—( Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
agreed there was ground for inquiry.
Lord J. RUSSELL wished Hon. Gentlemen would
think how bulky all the long despatches which they
found in the Treasury blue books would be in manu-
script.—(Hear.)
Mr; A ARBURTON repeated that charge must be
under the old system.
Mr. THORNELY said he could not see how the
amount could be made out.
Mr. KEMBLE said a vote for 5,000/. had been
postponed for inquiry in the former part of the evening
—wily should not this be also postponed ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
saidhe could not agree to that.
Mr. AGLION BY, trusting in the pledge of the
Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, that lie
would do every thing in his power to prevent undue ex-
penditure for postage in his department, did not think
the House ought to require the vote to be postponed.
Mr. WILLIAMS supported the proposition for the
postponement of the vote, as it did not appear satisfac-
torily that so large a sum could be expended without
an improper exercise of patronage somewhere.
Sir Walter James, Mr. Hume, and Sir Edward
Knatchbull, also supported the proposition for the post-
ponement of the vote, but the vote was eventually
agreed to.
The sum of 24,0001. wax then votai for the salary