The Sun.
London, England, 1840-01-25 00:00:00

DON, SATURDAY, JANUARY 25,1840.

its having established the iliependence of the constituency
of Southwark. They lvd returned toParliament a men who
on the .28th of the month would vote against the motion
of Sir J. Yarde Buller, a man who would tell the House
of Commons that the Whigs possessed the confidence
of the country.—(Cries of " No," " Yes' yes," and uoroar.) lie hoped good feeling would hence,
forward prevail in the borough, and that they would
go band in hand in promoting- its interests. He would
take leave (4 them by saying that he was friendly to the
rights, liberties, and independence of the people. It was
for this that he had retired from
persevering with his claims
on the borough. Another oppo'tunity might coins for as-
serting in hi: own proper person their independence, and he
would avail himself of it. He trusted they would be-
lieve that he had been actuated on the late occasion
by the most conscientious convictions. He hoped that he
would have their approval and that of the country—at ail
events he had that which was dearer to him titan all be-
sides—the approval of his own conscience.—( Cheers. )
Mr. DAY then came forward, amidst great uproar, and
was totally unable to obtain for himself a moment's hear-
ing.. He had only one observation to make, in consequence
of an attack made on him by Mr. Curling.—( Confusion. )
Mr. Day then proceeded to say that lie was himself the
author of the letters which appeared in the the Times with
his signature. 'He proceeded to observe that the result of the
late election could not prove that the constituency of South-
wark were favourable either to the Whigs or to the New
Poor-law. Mr. Wood had denounced both ; he had ap-
peared in apposition to them, and he had thus perhaps
gulled the public. The election, however, could not prove the
sense of the constituency on either of these subjects. Mr.
Day continued to address the meeting amidst a scene of
unexampled confusion, till the High Bailiff at length
interfered, and told him that he had better not
to disturb the assembly any longer.
A vote of thanks was then proposed to the High Bailiff,
amidst loud cheers, by Mr. Curling.
The lIIGII BAILIFF briefly returned thanks, and the meet-
ing separated.
IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. ,

HOUSE OF. COMMONS, JAN. 24.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour.
ROYAL COMMISSION.
Sir AUGUSTUS Ctirronn, the Usher of the Black
Rod, shortly after the Speaker had taken Isis scat, ap-
peared on the floor, and summoned the House to the
House of Peers to hear the Royal Assent given to
Prince Albert's Naturalization Bill.
BREACH OF PRIVI LEGE—STOCKDALE
v. HANSARD.
The SPEAKER on Lis return to the House stated
that he had been informed by the Sergeant-at-Arms
that he had a communication to make to the House of
the greatest importance, if it was the pleasure of the
House that he should be heard.
The Sergeant-at-Arms then came to the bar, and
said that about six o'clock last evening he was
served with a writ of habeas corpus from the
Court of Queen's Bench, commanding him to produce
in Court the bodies of William Evans, Esq., and John
Wheelton, Esq., and that, in answer to the person who
served that writ, he stated that he acted under the writ
issued by the Speaker, and diet he conceived it to be
his duty to submit the question to the further direction
of the 'louse.

The warrant was then read at length by the Clerk at
the table.
Mr. LAW asked was there any indorsement on the
warrant ?

The SPEAKER said, Yes. The names William
Marcheit, and Robinson, clerk.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the Ser-
geant-at-Arms had acted most properly in this business,
for it would have been very wrong for him to have taken
any steps without consulting the House, and he had the
earliest opportunity of giving that information to this
House ; and they were now imperatively called upon
to consider what steps ought to be taken on that occa-
sion to protect their own privileges, for any false step
that might be taken by theta then must involve
them in very great and serious difficulties
It might be contended, that without this writ having
been served on this House it ought not to be obeyed ;
he would not then enter into the question of law, but
he should have no hesitation in advising that House
to direct their Sergeant-at-Arms to make a return
to that Court that he detained those two individuals,
viz., Mr. Evans and Mr. Wheclton, under a previous
warrant issued by the Speaker of the House of Com-
mons. He (the Attorney-General) thought that that
course was the safest, most prudent, and most Consti-
tutional that they could follow. If that course did not
put an end to any further dispute with the Court of
Law, it would not be the fault of the House of
Commons. If, on the return which would be
made by the Sergeant-at-Arms, anything would be
done but simply remanding them to the safe keeping of
the Sergeant-at-s‘rms, the Court of Queen's Bench will
egregiously put itself into the wrong, and give them (the
House of Commons) an advantage in continuing the
struggle without much difficulty,it having been determined
that this House had the power of commitment, and that
no Court of Law had any right to inquire into the cause.
In some instances he was well aware that the cause of
commitment nad been set out on the face of the war-
rant, and the Court could not inquire whether that
cause was sufficient or not. He knew of other cases
where the cause had not been set out on the face of the
warrant, but the Court should see that such omission
was prfectly immaterial ; they should have said that
they were no judges in that matter ; there were one or
two cases in which that doctrine had• been laid down
by the Court of Queen's Bench. In the case before them
the warrant issued against the Sheriffs stated that they
were merely guilty of a high contempt of the privileges
of this House. There were cases where in a similar mac-
nes the Court ruled that the warrant of that House was
sufficient, and that it was not their business to inquire into
it. In Lord Shaftesbury's case, the cause of commitment
was not mentioned on the face of the warrant, but it
merely stated that he was committed for high
contempt against the privileges of this House. Upon
Lord Shaftesbury moving for a writ of Habeas Corpus,
and objection being made that the warrant was insuffi-
cient, what said Lord Chief Justice Mansfield ? Ile
said, " the Court had no jurisdiction in the case, and
therefore the insufficiency of the warrant was not con-
siderable. They ought not to extend their jurisdiction
beyond its due limits, and the actions of their ancestors
would not warrant them in such an attempt."
Therefore, although the commitment of Lord Shaftes-
bury by the House of Lords was general, and merely
for contempt, the Court held unanimously that they
had no jurisdiction at all to inquire, and they remanded
him. He would mention also a case which occurred
in 1751. That was a commitment by the House of
Commons, under a similar warrant ; lie meant the
case of Alexander Murray, who was committed for
contempt, although the contempt was not specified in
the warrant. He was brought before the Judges of the
Court of King's Bench, and Wright, Justice, said, " It
appeared, by the return to the writ of habeas corpus,
that Murray had been committed to Newgate, under
a warrant charging him with a high contempt of the
privileges of the House of Commons, and it was
insisted at the bar that that was a bailable case within
the meaning of the Habeas Corpus Act. The ansxer
to that was, that it had never been maintained that
the act gave power to the Judges at chambers or in
Court, to decide upon the privileges of the House of
Commons, and it had been agreed upon all hands that
theyhad power to judge of their own privileges.—( Hear.)
It need not appear to them what the contempt was for
which he had been committed ; for if it did appear they
could not judge thereof. Lord Shaftesbury had been
committed for a contempt of the House of Lords,
and being brought before the King's Mach on a writ
of habeas corpus, the Court must remand him, because
in no case that had been cited had the Court
interfered. The House of Commons was supe-
rior to that Court in that -particular, and they
could not, therefore,:. enter into the question.
Justice Denison said, The Court, as any other Court,
had granted the writ of habeas corpus, not knowing
what the commitmeni was- ; but now it appeared that
it was for a contempt of their privileges. What these
privileges were, the Court did not know, nor need they
tell what the contempt was, for the Court could not
judge of it.—(Hear, hear.) That Court must be
considered inferior to the House of Commons, with
respect of judging of contempt against it. The ease
was a clear one, and required no sort of consideration."
Judge Foster, one of the most constitutional Judges that
ever sat upon the bench, agreed in that decision, upon
the ground " that the law of Parliament was part of the
law of the land." Now what became of the argument
they bad so often heard, that they could not contravene
what was laid down by a Court of inferior jurisdiction ?
That general warrant, which was without specification
ficient, and with such a warrant r .o other cause could
of the particular cause of contempt, was held to be suf.
interfere. When Sir Francis Burdett's case went to
the House of Lords, Lord Eldon proposed the follow-
ing question
'-"
Whether
if the
a contempt of Court, and committed the offender
by a warrant, Court for
o f Common the
opinion
stating generally, without circum-
stancesvriietuer the
that led to a commitment, t,
Pleas o f
adjudged
Judgesjutige an - act to be
Queen's Bondi in the return to the writ of habeas
corpus setting forth the warrant, stated the contempt
generally whether in that case the Court of Queen's
Bench would discharge the prisoner, because the par-
ticular facts out of which the contempt arose were not
set forth in the warrant ?" That in substance would be,
whether such a warrant as had been signed in the
case of Messrs. Evans and Wheelton were signed by the
authority of the Court of Common Picas—whe-
ther that would be good. The question being
handed over to the Judges, and they having-, con-
sulted for a few minutes, Chief Baron Richards de-
livered the unanimous opinion of the Judges, that in
such a case the Court of Queen's Bench could not
liberate them.—(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial side
of the House.) 'The}, (the House of Commons,) there-
fore had the unanimous judgment of the whole of the
Judges of England, that on a commitment by a Court
of Law, where the warrant did not specify particularly
that that is a good commitment, and no other
Court could inquire whether that commitment was
proper or improper.—(Hear, hear.) Under those
circumstances he (the Attorney-General) thought

-that they might with confidence direct their Sergeant-
at-Arms to make a return of the warrant under which
Messrs. Evans and Wheelton had been committed.
He (the Attorney-General) apprehended that on the
warrant being read the Court of Queen's Bench could
do nothing less than say that the prisoners might re-
turn to the custody whence they came. If they
answered differently, it would be a ftigrant viola-
tion of law. If the Court of Queen's Bench
should unfortunately depart from the principles and de-
cisions which he had stated, then the House,
would consider what powers the Constitution had given
them for the vindication of their own privileges against
the illegal judgment of the Court of Queen's Bench.
The warrant would be found in all respects conform-
able to former precedent. He would conclude by moving
That their Sergeant-at-Arms should be directed to
make a return to the said writ, that he holds the bodies
of the said William Evans and John Whetdton, Esqrs.,
by virtue of a warrant under the hand and seal of the
Speaker, issued by the authority of the House of Com-
mons for contempt of a breach of the privileges of that
House."

Mr. GODSON said he aid not rise to oppose the
motion of the Learned Attorney-General, but he felt
it his duty to state that the Learned Gentleman had not
explained the real question, which would come before
the Queen's Bench on this return, which would be,
whether or not an officer of that Court could be stopped
in the discharge of his duties, by any power known to the
constitution of this country ; and it was yet to be
decided whether the Court would not require the
parties who had adopted such a course to come before
them, and justify so serious an interruption of the course
of justice. Let the House for a moment escape from the
idea of this being a contest between it and the Queen's
Bench, and consider it as a question whether, when
one of the subjects of the realm had gained a legal
verdict, and was about to receive the fruits of that ver-
dict, the Constitution would allow any body of men to
step in between those parties, and do away with the
judgment of the Court. He would not anticipate
the arguments that would be used before the Judges,
nor would lie venture to say that they would not remand
the Sheriffs ; but he hoped that there would be no wish
or intention to gain a triumph over the Judges.—(Hear,
hear.) Nothing could be more abhorrent from a well-
regulated mind than the attempts which had been made
by the Ministerial Papers to throw ridicule upon the
Judges of the Realm : particularly he would refer to the
Morning Chronicle of to-day—(Laughter)—which con-
tained a paragraph sneering at the Judges as 15 elderly
gentlemen in chambers, who have to decide on the exact
numbers of " thens" and " theres" to be inserted in
demurrers.—(Hear, hear.) If the returns were made
as proposed by the Attorney-General, which appeared
to be the regular course, he presumed that the Sheriffs
would accompany the Sergeant-at-Arms into Court.
If the opinion of the Court was that they ought to be
remanded, let it be so, but if the opinion of the Court
was that they ought to be discharged, he trusted there
were men in England who would not refuse to assist
the Judges in the due administration of justice.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL had not meant
the slightest disrespect to the Judges in anything he
had said. He not only loved them as friends, but vene-
rated them as most conscientious Magistrates. lie
thought in this instance that they were in error, but he
had never attributed to them anything like improper
motives. As to the questions that might arise, he would
say that none could possibly arise, if good cause of deten-
tion were shown. The writ of habeas corpus required
that the person to whom it was directed should state
if he held the body of any individual in his custody, and
under what authority he so held it, and if the authority
was sufficient, the warrant must be considered a valid
warrant, and this was a valid warrant, unless the una-
nimous decision of all the Judges for centuries was wrong.
Mr. CRESS WELL thought they would be asserting
their own privileges, and in the most efficient manner,
and at the same time paying a proper respsct to the
Judges, by not indulging in speculations as to what
the decision of the Court might be. If the House
thought fit to make a return to the writ of habeas cor-
pus, it was their duty, without speculatin4 asto the conse-
quences to return the truth, and to consider any question
that might arise afterwards. The Judges would dis-
! pose of the case according to what they believed to
be the law, and if the House considered their decision to
be wrong, then would be the time to question it ; he
trusted, therefore, that he should hear no more specu-
lation as to what would be done by the Judges.
The motion of the Attorney-General was then put
and carried without a division. -
Mr. CRESS WELL presented a petition from the
Liver cool Dock Company, praying for leave to bring
in a Bill for the purpose of extending their privileges.
Mr. BAINES presented a petition, prayin.4 that
Church-rates might be abolished, and John Thoro-
good might be discharged from the confinement he was
suffering for their non-payment. Also one from Go-
mersall, in the West Riding of Yorkshire, praying for
a repeal of the Corn-laws, as follows :
" The Petitioners attribute to the operation of these
laws the alarming distress which prevails in their own
neighbourhood.

These laws they say have the effect of ruining the
trade of the district by giving encouragement to foreign
competitors who now fully supply their own markets,
which markets formerly afforded profitable employment to
a large portion of the population of this district.
" The Germanic Commercial League, one of the effects
of the English Corn-laws, they say, has imposed high du-
ties upon their manufactures, which are equivalent to a
prohibition of those manufactures into the German States.
" And these foreign competitors have become formidable
rivals in other markets as well as their own, while thus,
with a rapidly increasing population, the English manufac-
turers are deprived of their most valuable and extensive
connections.

" The Petitioners say that they can acknowledge no
law as just which prevents the free exchange of the pro-
ducts of their industry.
. .

" The Corn-laws, they say, have tended more than any
other cause seriously to derange the currency of Great
Britain, by drawing away bullion from the country.
" And that at the period when this derangement comes
into operation the people of England have to subsist upon
food so high in price as to prevent the working classes
from purchasing it in sufficient quantities to supply their
daily necessities.

" The distress of the two last years, caused by bad har-
vests, they say is likely to be continued and aggravated
by the late unfavourable seed time, which must necessarily
create a serious deficiency in the produce of the next
harvest.

" And they solemnly declare their conviction, that with
out a speedy and total repeal of the Corn-laws the interests
of the community in general, and the manufacturing popu-
lation in particular, will be soon too seriously injured ever
again to revive."

This petition, the Honourable Gentleman said, was
signed by 969 of the inhabitants, which comprehended
the whole of the male adult population of the place,
with the exception of, 12. to 15 individuals.

Sir J. STRICKLAND presented a petition from
a gentleman named Rhodes, a woollen manufacturer of
Wakefield, complaining of the injurious effect of the
Corn-laws.

Mr. VILLIERS presented a petition from Settle,
in the West Riding of the county of York, against the
Corn -laws.

Lord EASTNOR presented a petition from Lea-
mington Priors in the County:of Warwick, praying (as
we understood) Government to take measures to pro-
mote the building of additional churches.
Captain ALSAGER presented a petition signed by
200 inhabitants of South Lambeth, humbly praying
that the Act of Provision to be made for Prince Albert
should contain such security as should seem best calcu-
lated to maintain unimpaired the Protestant Throne, as
settled by the Bill of Rights and the Act of Settlement.
Mr. KEMBLE presented a petition from Peckham
and its vicinity to the like effect.
Sir J. Y. BULLER presented a petition from Cole-
raine. praying for additional Church accommodation.
Mr. LITTON presented a petition praying the Go-
vernment to take into their consideration the laws of
the service, which obliged soldiers to pay military ho-
'flours to the religious ceremonies of Roman Catholics,
against their consciences.
Mr. CRESS WELL presented a petition from the
Mayor and Town Council of Liverpool, praying for the
repeal of the Corn-laws.
Mr. HUME said that he had put down his name to
present a petition against the grant of 50,000/. to
Prince Albert, but, on consideration, he thought as the
House had not voted, he had better postpone it.
THE MINISTRY.
Sir JOHN YARD BULLER gave notice that the
resolution which he would move on Tuesday next was
as follows :—" That her Majesty's Government as at
present constituted, does not possess the cipfidence of
this House."—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. PRYME gave notice for a Bill to reduce the
average prices of wheat at which corn should be allowed
to be imported as we understood.
Sir F. TRENCH gave notice of a motion for
Tuesday next, for the restoration of the wax candles,
and for the abolition of the Bude light in the House.
INDIA.
Mr. HUME gave notice of a question as to whether
it wag the intention of the Government to lay before
the House papers respecting our Oriental connections.

CHINA. -
Mr. CRAWFORD gave notice that on Monday he
would move an address to her Majesty praying that her
Mjesty would lay before the House copies or extracts
of all despatches relative to the late proceedings in China.

COPYRIGHT.
Mr. Sergeant TALFOURD gave notice of a Bill
to amend the law of Copyright.
IMPORTATION OF CORN INTO IRELAND.

Mr. L ABOUCHERE gave notice, that on Monday
next he would move that the House resolve itself into a
Committee to consider so much of the 9th George Iv.,
chap. 60, as regarded the importation into Ireland of
wheat and flour.

The Mom. HON. GENTLEMAN also gave notice that
on the same day he would move a resolution directing
the insertion in all future Railway Bills of a clause 'sub-
mitting to any general act hereafter to be passed in re-
spect to railways.
IRISH CORPORATIONS,
Lord MORPETH gave notice that on Monday he

event of her surviving her father. 60,000/. was then
granted by Parliament, of which .50,000/. had since been
settled upon the Prince during his life. The next
which bore any analogy was that of the Queen Consort of
his late Majesty, for whom 110,0001. was proposed inlS3l,
but 50,000/. was the sum allotted to her privy purse.
In the case of Queen Caroline, the consort of George
the Second, a dowry of 50,000/. a-year was granted to
her Majesty, in case she should survive King George
the Second. The Princess Dowager of Wales, the
mother of George the Third, was, a was recited in

The Lord Chancellor, the Archbishop of Canterbury,
the Earl of Clarendon, the Earl of Shaftesbury, and
the Earl of Errol, sat to-day at a Qurter before Four
o'Clock, as Royal Commissioners, and the Speaker of the
House of Commons, attended by a large body of Mem-
bers having appeared at the bar,the Commission was read,
and the Royal Assent given in the usual form to the
Bill of Naturalization of Prince Albert of Saxe Coburg
and Gotha. The House then adjourned during pleasare.

The Bishop of EXETER rejoiced at the very
proper interruption of the Noble Lord. He rejoiced
that the very parties charged prayed for a very full
inquiry.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) His first
intention was to have asked for a full inquiry into the
principles guiding the parties. His reason for not
taking that course was, that most naturally the result of
his motion would be, that the Government must direct
prosecutions against the parties charged by him with high
crimes against the peace and welfare of society,
and he did not wish that the case of parties
so charged should be prejudiced by that House taking
evidence upon oath which might be used against
them they at the same time having no right
of cross-examination. He rejoiced, therefore,
that the parties themselves had prayed for a full and free
inquiry into their tenets as it had done away with the only
objection which he had to pursuing his first intention.
Of course no objection would be made to the full and
free inquiry prayed for by the petitioners.—(Hear.)
He rejoiced they prayed for such an inquiry; and if the
Noble Lord would move for such a Committee, be (the
Bishop'of Exeter) should rejoice to concur in it. He
would now recur to the point at which he was when the
petitions were offered. He was going to state, with all
humility, yet with confidence, that the Noble Marquis,
in stating these people had not violated the law, had
stated wbat,he believed to be possible. From the de-
gree of information the Noble Marquis might have ob-
tained, he might think himself warranted in stating—but
the real facts of the case showed there could be no
doubt that grievous violation of the law was committed
by Socialism as a society. And first let him tell the
-s'ate of Socialism as a society. It was an organized
society—and he need not state that the law looked with
jealousy at the proceedings of organized bodies, however
eager it might be to protect individuals, and even bodies
of men, in meeting for the assertion of what they 1:•!•
lieved to be their rights ; and it would be in their
Lordships' recollection there were some special laws. in
:!eclaration of the common law, or otherwise,
on this subject.—(Hear, hear.) This society, more-
over, was not merely an organized and English
society it was an universal one, purposing to extend it-
self through all lands ; at present, indeed, it did not
extend beyond France, but with France they held re-
viler communication. But in England. or rather in
the British islands, it had wide ramifications. They had
p Ircelled out Great Britain and Ireland into fourteen
districts. They had an annual Congress, which was
entrusted with the legislative power of this great com-
munity, and which met at different places in different
years, to which delegates were sent from all places in
which there were chartered branches, of which there
were no fewer than sixty-one. Some of these branches
sent one delegate, others more ; but the body at large
met in Congress, to exercise the legislative power of
the community. Besides the legislative body, there
vas a central body, under the control of the Board
sitting at Birmingham, and he believed be might say
these were constantly sitting. This district Association
appointed missionaries throughout the land, of whom
he should have something to say presently. Of the
; fourteen districts into which the United Kingdom was
' livided, there was at the same 350 towns which were
ro.;elarly v,sited by these missionaries. They were
,‘,Aid not inconsiderably, by contributions of about
twopencet from each member and others, and from
come persons not so much. These missionaries were
paid no less a sum than 303. per week, and their tra-
N elling expenses,—an amount which could not be con-
sidered trifling for persons in their situations in lite.
Those missionaries were, too, in many instances, per-
sons greatly distinguished for their attainments, which
f:equently were -not of an ordinary character. There
was also a Tract Committee, which distr.buted im-
mense numbers of tracts all over the country.
To Manchester alone there was one thousand copies
..,,, nt weekly, and a proportionate number to other
to.vns. That society had, also, a weekly newspaper,
which expressed and propagated their sentiments; and
.f the Noble Marquis had only given a passing atten-
tion to those facts. he would not have said that the
objects and proceedings of that body were not in con-
travention of the law of the land. On those grounds,
Thee, be would state with confidence that that society
was an unlawful one. It was rendered so by the 57th
of George IIL, which enacted that any society em- 1
p/!sying any' missionaries, or delegates, to communicat,
with any other society or delegates, shall be con-
sidered an unlawful confederacy. He contended that
the proceedings, in that respect, of the Socialists, con..
stituted a grievous offence in the eye of the law, and
one which no effort of the Noble Marquis
could justify. It was illegal in its nature
and arrangements ; but more especially in the
mode of carrying its principles into effect. The
object avowed by their newspaper, to which he had al-
luded, was to put an end to the institutions of the coun-
try, and establish others in their stead, excluding all
religion except such religion which had no regard to the
immortal state oi man. Under the new state in which
they proposed to place the country, they would abolish
marriages. Those objects alone did, in his opinion, es-
tablish the illegality of such associations. There was
no doubt that the object of the parties constituting that
society would attempt to destroy all the institutions of
the country and all the frame-work of society, and set
up new ones in their place. If, then, this was their
object, the very basis of it was illegal. They ground
themselves certainly upon principles that would go a
good way to jutisfy them, if not in a legal, yet in a moral
point of view. The great foundation stone upon which
they build their doctrine is that of the irresponsibility of
man. Their laws and constitution were sent to him by
ono of their leaders, when he heard that he (the Bishop
of Exeter) was about instituting an inquiry upon the
subject. It was then laid down to be their belief and
conviction that man was irresponsible for his actions,
and was influenced by some powers of organization over
\ which he had no control ; and, being an irresponsible
i being, should neither receive reward nor punishment.
When the case of Boland occurred, the man who was;
convicted for murder at Newcastle, one of their lec-
turers declared that the murderer ought not to have
been punished, because, indeed, he could not help doing
what he had done. It was further declared in the pre-
menet, of a person who informed his Lordship that a man
detected in a theft had no right to have been 1 punished,
or to have been treated as a thief, because he could not
,
help it. The Noble Lord, indeed, has said that he

could not help that ; but should that be the language
of the Government of this country ? This system, it
appeared. was drawn forth by Mr. Owen, a man, he,
believed, who was then three score and ten years of
age, and has been for near half a century known in this
country. His opinion of that individual was such, as far
as he (the Bishop of Exeter) could form an opinion,
as would not lead him to press his individual case upon
the attention of that house. He was not dealing with
Mr. Owen particularly, but he was bound to deal with
him because he was put forward as the great head of
this system. In a public discussion between Mr. Owen
and Mr. Roebuck, the irresponsibility of man was, by
the publication which had then appeared, supported by
one of the parties,—(Here the Right Rev. Prelate
made a short quotation.) It appeared by the argu-
ments which Mr. Owen used that all human laws
were founded on injustice, as they were made
to punish for actions that the offending party had
no control over. This was manifestly striking at the
root of all human laws, and was consequently an illegal
society. Mr. Owen said that this was a contest
between those who believed that the happiness
o. man should be kept down by force, and
fraud, or supported by truth and justice. Up to
this time there had been the reign of force and fraud,
and when the millenium should take place, the reign
of truth and justice would commence. In the 14th
page of the preface to the New alloral World, their
Lordships would find that Mr. Owen there said, that
" the laws then existing produced more evil than good.
Such was the present state of things ; as soon as
man should be regenerated, they would discover that
the present classification of society and its various
grades—aristocracy, professions, trades—were only fit
for man in his first, or irrational state of existence ; for
the present classification consisted only of fools and
knaves—the oppressors and the oppressed." He
(the Bishop of Exeter) was most sorry to say
that in the discussion with Mr. Roebuck he had found
a passage, not directly calling for bloodshed, but
recognising the probabiiity of it. This was the
passage --" It is the interest of every individual family
of man that this great and glorious change may now be
commenced, and if the Government will lend its aid it
may then be produced without force. But if the Go-
vernment still decline to take the lead in the great
work necessity will compel them to accomplish it for
themselves." That he (the Bishop of Exeter) appre-
hended that that was an intimation that the present
state of society should be degraded. If the Govern-
ment should join in the destruction that would be suffi-
cient ; if not they would then raise and establish this
new state of , hings themselves. Hit would not enlarge
on the organisation intended in the country. but he
would only say that the strong arm of Government
should wield the power of the law against them. He
now came to another of their doctrines. They had
heard of the extraordinary denunciation of that blessed
state under which the happiness and virtue of man under
God at present existed—he meant marriage. Marriage
was denounced as an accursed thing—a cunningly-de-
vised fable by the priesthood that ought to be abolished.
The Reverend Prelate then read a long ext' act from
the works of Mr. Owen, and said that gentleman held
that the system of marriage was the worst thing known
to man, with two exceptions, and what did their Lord-
ships think those exceptions were?—the systems of
religion and private property.—( Hear, hear.) Now he
thought it would be a waste of time in him—it would
be arrogance in him to inform their Lordships that all
that was against the law—was in defiance of law, and
of course known to the Noble Marquis. The Noble
Marquis was a man of the world ; he no doubt was in
the habit of reading a newspaper ; he could not,
then, have been unacquainted with these matters ;
and yet only three nights ago he volunteered to say that
those parties were not acting contrary to law. The
Noble Marquis was in the habit of walking through the
streets—he knew what was going on—yet by a sort of
hallucination, he stated that they had done nothing
contrary to law. He need scarcely quote authorities
because all their Lordships were quite aware that all
their proceedings were contrary to law, but still the
Noble Marquis did not interfere, but said they had
not offendedagainst the law. " Russell on Crime"
said the Court of Queen's Bench would take notice of
all matters that were against the public morals. Mr.
Owen went on to say that the Truths of Revelation
were diabolical falsehoods invented by man—that this
earth was the only Heaven that man could enjoy, yet
these the Noble Marquis said were not against the law.
He wished that he could be justified in saying that this
unhappy man had been contented with being simply irre-
ligious without being blasphemous, but he had been guilty
of the most horrible blasphemies that could be uttered.
He had stated in his book against Mr. Roebuck that
the Supreme Being, as imagined by the Christians and
Jews, was the most inconsistent, idiotic, cruel, and unjust
being that ever it had entered into the imagination of
man to conceive. It might be said that this was the
language merely of an individual who was in an extraor-
dinary state of mind, and if he were on a Jury trying him
for some crime he might, perhaps, be inclined to give
him the benefit of this, and not to hold him accountable
for his actions. But it should be recollected that that
book of his was the book to which his whole society
looked up, and he would say that any society which
could make such an avowal was an illegal society, and
ought to be put down by the strong arm of power, if
there was a strong arm in the realm. It was the business
of the paid missionaries to preach these doctrines,
in every one of the 360 places to which they were sent
throughout the country. A most respectable individual
had given him a list of the blasphemies with had been
uttered by the Socialist missionary in Birmingham only
oa Sunday last, and to the truth of these statements
that individual was ready to testify either before a Com-
mittee of their Lordships or in a Court of Justice, if
it should be thought fit to prosecute them. He begged
to state that he did not at all mean to mix up the
Noble and Learned Lord who had presented this peti-
tion as a partieeps crintinis, he was too wise a man
to hold these doctrines, were he not too good a one to
do so. The Socialist Missionaries had thus spoken
of God—What a monster is that God ! wnom the
Christians call just ; he is a barbarous cruel God, and
we will not serve him. On 25th November, the So-
cialist Missionary had said that he would not serve that
vindictive being called the Lord of Hosts. He wonld
produce no more specimens, but he could assure their
Lordships that these wore by no means the worst ; there
were others in which the blasphemy was so mixed up with
the most horrible obscenity applied to the most sacred sub-
jects, that he would not produce them though on their pro-
duction depended the whole question,and that by so doing
he could induce the Noble Marquis tointerfere by the strong
arm of the law to put down these horrors. Trey endea-
voured to entangle their hearers by the most specious
sophistry—specious he said—when the passions of men
were engaged on the same side ; and unhappily, in this
respect, the parts of this country where they now
existed were those which, to the shame of the country
he it said, not to the shame of her Majesty's present
Government, but of all Governments for the last half
century, had been abandoned without having been taught
to know their God. On the ears of such men such
sophistry as theirs, not professing to be reason, could not
fall without effect. In some instances they were horri-
ble in the extreme, and he could prove the statement by
many instances, but he would confine himself to one,
which had been brought under his notice that day. A
most respectable inhabitant of the town of Wolverhamp-
ton, named Parke, had an apprentice, who was in the
habit of attending social meetings, without the know-
ledge of his master, and had procured their books else-
where, since his master's shop was not likely to furnish
them. The peculiar circumstances of his death lie
thought their Lordships very well knew. He had
dined and drank tea with his master, as usual,
and left the house to attend St. George's Church, which
he was in the habit of attending, and he (the Bishop
of Exeter) must say the Socialists did not at present
forbid their proselytes from going to church ; so long as
they attended them they did not care for that. Not
coming home at the usual hour, his master sat up for
him until 12 o'clock, when he concluded his relatives
had detained him ; but he was found dead in a lumber
room the next morning, and two bottles which had con-
tained. poison beside him. Lying near him were four
letters, addressed to his father, his master, to the Jury,
and the other containing his creed. This latter stated
that he considered the Bible the most dangerous book
he had ever read, and that if ever such a person as Je-
sus Christ lived, he was the weakest of men. He
stated in one letter that he had been nurtured in super-
stition, meaning that he had been brought up in the
faith of the Church of England, and that he disbelieved
in a future state of retribution, that he considered ap-
prenticeship as a state of slavery, and preferred the
peir of a moment to enduring it for ~six years. He
entreated the Jury to return a verdict of felo de se, for
that he was in the full possession of his faculties He
was only about sixteen years of age, of superior talents,
and of great vivacity and cheerfulness of mind. He
(the Bishop of Exeter) understood that after the ver-
dict his uncle said, that were he in the presence of the
Queen he would not abstain from calling Owen the
murderer of his nephew. He (the Bishop of
Exeter) would venture to says that it was
a culpable neglect of their duty if Ministers
did not tell her Majesty the consequences—the ascer-
tained results, of the .
writings of a man who had -been
presented to her Majesty and graciously received. On
that presentation he should have a few words to say
hereafter. He had not thought proper to detail to
their Lordships anything like the fiftieth part of the
miserable iniquities of the case, for the worst things he
had not dared to bring forward. He did not think it
would be necessary to prove this Social Society was an
illegal body, and it ought to have been known to be so
by her Majesty's Secretary of State for the Home De-
partment. They had gone on for years, and he be-
lieved they had increased much mere since the Noble
Marquis had been in office, but that was a matter merely
of time of r ffice, for he was sure the Noble Marquis (lid
not mean to encourage them, but he thought the Noble
Marquis had been more negligent to what the news-
papers said upon the subject, than the Socialists were
to that negligence, because the Noble Marquis had said
he was ignorant that anything illegal had been done by
those men, whose conduct was one series of violations

of the laws of God and man. But it might be said '
this was not an obscure society, and that it was one of
the innumerable forms of human foliy and vice ; but the
Noble Marquis had struck that ground from under him,
for he had said he knew what they were doing, and they
had done nothing illegal. He repeated the assertion.
The Home Secretary had said that he had not enforced
the law against the great body of Socialists, because
they had done nothing illegal. That proved that he
(the Home Secretary of State) had made inquiry, for
if he had not, how could he undertake to say so ? Was
any part of his duty so stringent as that of attending
to the morals of the country, and watching with jea-
lousy all proceedings affecting it. Why did the Noble
Marquis occupy so high an office, if he thought it
no part of his duty ? And if he did think so,
he (the Bishop of Exeter) asked whether he had
made inquiry, and what was its result ?—( flear.)
That House was in error, if it supposed that the mem-
bers of this society consisted merely of unlettered and
obscure individuals—it was no such thing. That so-
ciety was a most flourishing one. He held in his hand
a copy of their weekly newspaper, entitled The New
illoral World, in which it was stated that their various
sncietiea were in a most prosperous state of advance-
ment ; and the same paper strongly advocated the ne-
cessity of forming new ones. Of the progress of the
Social principles at Manchester, Liverpool, Maccles-
field, Birmingham, and other important towns, a most
flattering description was given. In fact, he knew that
in the propagation of their doctrines the Socialists had
been successful to a great extent. He knew that,
for the advancement of their purposes, one individual
had guaranteed money to a large amount, and at Man-
chester four individuals had guaranteed the sum of five
thousand pounds, by which a Socialist institution of a
most formidable nature had been built there, quite ad-
jacent to one of the Established Churches in that town.
This institution had its lecture-room, and all the other
essentials of a complete literary institution. At the
meeting of the fourth congress of this Society, an ac-
count was given of its pecuniary means, in the course
of which they laid considerable stress on the necessity
of providing estates on which to carry out their plans.
One estate had been offered to them valued at twenty-
two thousand pounds ; that price was thought
too much, but various other offers were read,
at that time varying in amount ftom the sum he before
named down to 501. This then was the association
of which such a harmless picture had been drawn. He
could assure the House that there were many men of
character and property engaged in propagating the
ob-
jects of that society, aid the printed account of their
proceedings was given with a degree of grave regularity
exceeding even that which sometimes might be found
exhibited in their Lordships' House. In Birmingham
there was an individual holding the important office of
Superintendent of Births, Deaths, and Marriages, to
which he presumed he had been appointed by
Government (he spoke el' Mr. Pare) that
individual held also the office of Vice President
amongst the Socialists, without thinking that
it at all interfered with the office to which he had
been appointed by Government, as a proof of which he
had actually put a painted board over his door indicat-
ing the official rank held by him as a Socialist. He
also sigried all the charters granted for the establish-
ment of new branch associations. He (the Bishop of
Exeter) hoped the Noble Lord (Melbourne) had not
been aware of these facts ; if he had been, he (the
Rev. Prelate) should then have considered him guilty
of dereliction in the discharge of his first and most sacred
duty. Mr. Pare was subsequently obliged to give up
his office of Vice-President to the Socialists, but he did
not give up the office of Superintendent-Registrar,
though there could be no doubt he will still be an active
agent amongst the Socialists. He (the Bishop of Exe-
ter) wished this had been a select instance, but it was
not. There were other parties holding important offices
equally distinguished for their zeal in the cause of the
Socialists. At Coventry application was made by that
party for the use of the Guildhall to lecture upon So-
cialism, and that application had been granted by the
Mayor. The application had been made by a per-
son of great weight in the borough, the con-
ductor and collector of the market tolls, to which office
he had been appointed by the Mayor and Corporation.
He had always thought unfavourably of corporate
bodies, and the circumstance just mentioned was by no
means calculated to alter his opinion. It was true the
Mayor afterwards granted the use of the Guildhall to
Mr. Brindle, a most effective lecturer against Socialism,
but the Socialist lecturer having gone on as far as he
liked, and Mr. Brindle wishing to do likewise, again
applied for the use of the Hall.—(Hear, hear.)
It was found, however, that he had been
so successful in his exposure of the Social doctrines,
that the collector refused again to allow him the hall, ,
and he was obliged to resort to the theatre to finish his
lectures. Thus, then, it would be seen that this per-
nicious system was not confined to the humbler classes,
but extended itself to the highest functionaries in the
State. In consequence of what he had just stated, a
requisition had been got up by the Dissenting
Ministers, and all the Clergy of that town.
on the subject ; indeed, the Mayor of Coventry
had actually assisted the Socialists with money.
He very much wished that Coventry was the only place
of which such facts could be spoken, but in the Guild-
hall of anotherjmportant city which he would not name
—(Here one of the Rev. Bench stated that it was the
city of Lincoln)—a scene of the most blasphemous de-
scription had taken place. The Reverend Pre-
late then produced a newspaper, which he
stated advocated the Social doctrines, and
possessed a great circulation, still, not nearly as great as
another newspaper, advocating the same doctrines—he
meant the Weekly Dispatch, the circulation of which he
understood was not less than 30,000 copies weekly.
In a letter which had appeared in the Weekly Dispatch
of February, 1837. the writer had said that a man was
no more responsible for his fate than he was for the
length of his nose. That paper advocated the doctrines
of Socialism, and he believed the public would see that
the circulation had on that account been very materially
increased. He (the Bishop of Exeter) was informed,
on the most indubitable authority, that the Society ha('
taken a lease for 99 years of a property containing 500
acres, near Southampton (we understood). The cler-
gyman of the parish, who was allied to a great
family in this country, had heard that the sect
had taken a farm of 500 acres, and they would guess
his astonishment at finding that a large portion of the
property was in his parish. A letter from the curate
of the parish had been put into his (the Right Rev.
Prelate's) hands, which stated the formation of th:
Socialist community in the parish—the foundation of
school ; and it likewise stated that there was a lectur
at two o'clock on Sunday, and when the weather woule,
permit, the members amused themselves on that holidaN
with music, dancing, and singing. The clergyman con
' eluded his letter by expressing his fears for the awful
consequences that might ensue, as upwards of 500 peo-
ple attended their Sunday meetings. Now, making
every allowance for curiosity, for he did not believe
that 500 people would countenance such a demoniacal
system—be thought that the dangers were of a most
tearful kind, and ought to raise the apprehensions and
excite the deepest sense of suspicion in those who had
voluntarily incurred the responsibility of guarding the
morals of the people. There was one other point to
which lie felt it his duty to allude. The petitioners
lamented the countenance that had been given to the
Socialists by the presentation of Mr. Owen to her
Miijesty. Their Lordships would agree, he was sure, that
such an incident could Lot be looked on with indifference.
lie must say that, when the first Minister of the Crow(
had taken the very unusual part of presenting to the
Sovereign at her Court, Mr. Owen, for the purpose o
presenting an address to her Most Gracious Majesty,
he must say that it appeared a very questionable affair,
It was an address to her Most Gracious Majesty
Victoria I, from the Congress of the Universal Comm-
oities' Societies of Rational Religionists. He (th
Bishop of Exeter) said that that very title ought t,
have alarmed the Noble Viscount.—( Hear, hear.) H(
said that very title ought to have told him that it wag
his duty, before he bestowed such a distinction on any
individual as to present him at Court, to inform half ():
the nation of the Address that was to be presented. I!
was his opinion, however, that the Noble Viscount pre-
sented Mr. Owen from good nature. The Address
from the Rational Religionists did not contain a single
word about religion ; it was a vague general desbrip-
tion of the tenets of the society. He (the Bishop of
Exeter) said that that presentation had given great
impetus to the system. And a testimony for that
assertion was their paper published soon after. For in
that paper they said that the public had, up to the
present time, winked at their progress. He (the
Bishop of Exeter) said the public had done no such
thing. Her Majesty's Government had—especially tho
Secretary of State for the Home Department. The
public would no longer wink at theM, but would b,
compelled to acknowledge their onward progress it,
face of every obstacle which ignorance could lay in
their path. Such was th practical result of that moe;
.
ash fogy
measure. The R; ht Rev. Prelate trusted that
now when the facts were brought to their notice, that they
would redeem their error, and avenge these injured re-
-I_,_.,i(sion and piety of the nation. In the face of that
House—the sanctuary of justice—in the face of the
country,tecaelalendedon
elaterhillajteestgyi'vse paraincaispsaalrSaneceerettharayt
l
nofighst,at lie e
that' he
would inquire into the facts now brought
beforetat litnagtu!he Noble Lord
rdh e
oir w hadud
stated
y the facts
not expose himself and his Sovereign to the reproach of
sshouldhis notice,be
found
anduad
true,on
that
t
countenancing this abomniable sect.—(Cheers.)
Lord BROUGHAM assured their Lordships that
he would not entangle them in any discussion, as it
was most necessary that evidence on the subject should
be examined. He was unacquainted with the persons
complained of in this petition. He had, however, known
Mr. Oven for a long time, and he believed he miedit s ty
! that there was hardly any individual whose acquaint-
ance was more extensive among all classes of men, and
especially Members of that House, and the members
and heads of the Church, of his (Lord Brougham's)
certain knowledge. This alone had induced him to
i present the petition he had presented. Mr. Owen had
l been charged with being an immoral character. He

would venture to say there could be no greater testi- I
mony to Mr. Owen's morality than that of Mr. Wilber- I
force, who, when Mr. Canning presented a petition from
him to the house of Commons, bore ample testimony to
the respectability of Mr. Owen. He would only add, that
though he had seen many of Mr. Owen's writings
and petitions, ne had never heard anything so offen-
sive, absurd, and extravagant, as that which he had heard
from the Right Rev. Prelate that evening. He agreed
with the Right Rev. Prelate that if there were such
doctrines, and an idea that they might meet with suc-
cess, it was a most foolish and chimerical idea. If he
overrated the power of truth, and underrated that of
falsehood, still he thought there was no fear of such doc-
trines making any way among his enlightened fellow-
subjects. He made that statement with this addition,
provided that these doctrines were left to themselves ;
for certain he was, that ail experience taught that per-
secution was a great means of inculcating doctrines,
hie] nothing but persecution could ever have spread.
The Marquis of NORM AN BY then rose and said,
he could assure their Lordships that notwithstanding
the ironical and sarcastic speech of the Right Rev. Pre-
late, he looked upon the principles of the Socialists with
feelings of the most unmixed disgust And if the Right
Rev. Prelate thought it his du, y to bring before their
Lordships these principles, he could only add that he
felt the greatest abhorrence of them. After he had
listened to the speech of the Right Reverend
Prelate, in which lie had at one time soared to
the highest flights of eloquence, and at another
descended to the weakest and the most puerile
of puns, he could only assure their Lordships that
with the information the Government possessed they
had used all due exertions and discretion, believing the
right sense and good feeling of the country would
counteract these pernicious principles. And he did not
think the mere fact of their prosecution would tend to
their suppression, but only gratify the wishes of particular
individuals.—( Hear, hear.) And speaking the truth
he must say he had never been guilty of reading the
New Moral World, but he did think the circulation
of that work would be increased after the publication
of this debate.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
[he Right Rev. Prelate, indeed, had suffered it to
escape that these doctrines had been in existence for
years, while he was trying to throw upon the Govern-
ment the blame of neglect. Why did not the Right
Rev. Prelate before bring forward the subject ? Be-
cause he doubted the propriety of his course. The
Right Rev. Prelate had insinuated that his (Lord N.'s)
conduct in Ireland might have induced this supineness ;
he (Lord N.), on the contrary, said that if the Right
Rev. Prelate came to such a conclusion, he came to
it in the teeth of the votes of the Committee, and
of the universal acknowledgment of their Lordships.
But the " Social System" in operation bad been for
many years disregarded, by the absurdity of its doc-
trine ; they had no account of its travelling very much
through the country. There never was so signal a
failure as the attempt made by Mr. Owen to establish
his system in America. Whatever the dangers were
which this country was subject to, there was no fear of
this pernicious doctrine spreading, when the moral and
religious feeling of the people were so much opposed to
it. There was not a single doctrine contained in the
Social System which did not run counter to the univer-
sally established feelings of human nature.—(Hear,
hear.) The feelings which were planted in their hearts
would repel any such monstrous doctrine as that a com-
munity of persons could ever be established to any ex-
tensive degree. The Right Rev. Prelate has said, why,
if they (the Government) were aware of the existence
of Socialism, why did they not write circulars to the
Members. Such was not the usual course that was
pursued in any proceeding of that nature ; the usual
course would have been for the Magistrates to apply
for advice as to how they should act, if they saw there
was necessity for interference, or that there was any
difficulty. in the case. All he (the Noble Marquis)
could say was, that there was no appeal ever made
to the Home Office to prevent the spread of that
noxious doctrine. So far from the system having spread
so much as had been stated, he really believed the
meetings were attended by as few individuals as at any
former period. However pernicious the Right
Reverend Prelate might deem those doctrines to
be, he (the Noble Marquis) thought that very fact
would have the effect of destroying their progress
altogether.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") So far from
Socialism being more widely diffused, he had every rea-
son to suppose that it was greatly on the decline. The
course the Government should take, supposing that
the Right Rev. Prelate's statement be true, he did not
think it necessary for him to state. Believing
these doctrines to be of the most wild and vision-
ary nature, he did not think it necessary to take any
measures to put them down, for the simple reason that
their absurdities would extinguish themselves. The
Right Rev. Prelate, on more than the present occasion,
had directed their attention to that system, and he then
told him he was not prepared to take any particular
course against their spread.
The Bishop of LONDON did not know whether
the Government had or had not discharged their duty
with respect to the sect under consideration ; he wonld
merely touch upon some of the arguments laid down
by the Noble Marquis, wherein he stated that it was
not the duty of the Government, to interfere in pre-
venting the extension of those doctrines by reason of
their absurdities, and that the people were too religious
and too moral to allow them to propagate. With re-
spect to the more intelligent, such doctrines as they had
heard could not 'for any length of time have any effect,
they, of course, were not the persons in whose behalf
the Government was called upon to discharge what he
would call their parental powers. But there
were many persons whose ignorance left them liable
to be deceived by the arts of cunning and designing
naen ; he therefore thought that the Government was
called upon to act in a parental manner towards such a
class of persons. Although their schemes were of the
most wild and visionary character, he begged the Noble
Marquis not to lay the flattering unction to his soul
that the system was not progressing. Some years ago,
ibout six or seven, he thought there was only one
section of them meeting in London ; he had since made
himself master of the facts, that there were now no less
than twelve. He thought proper, some years ago, to
call the attention of the Government of that time to
the danger of allowing such meetings to take place.
The Secretary of State consulted the Attorney-General,
and he considered that any interference upon their part.
would have no good effect. They even then selected
the Lord's Day for the dissemination of their poison, the
Increase of which he had stated was in itself a convincing
proof that the absurdities of its doctrines was not sal-
....tent to pu: it down. The fact, ilso, of publishing a
regular newspaper showed that they had resources at
their command, and that they were not in that declin-
ing state which the Noble Marquis would seem to sup-
pose. In the Isle of Ely they had built a place for
their Socialist community ; there was money furnished
eat by persons occupying the humblest situations, but
lie understood that there were two gentlemen of great
respectability who devoted both their time and their
money to its objects. He could understand that they
might be called moral men, but what security had they
for their respectability, when they lent themselves to
the dissemination of such pernicious doctrines ? Was
that not sufficient to prove that the system was pro-
gressing ? and unless the Government interfered its
parental power, there was no accounting for the
mischiefs that. they might entail upon so-
ciety, and the consequences which must result.
The laudable anxiety of a good Government should be in
disseminating and giving extent to sound Christian prin-
ciples. The prosperity of the country depended upon
this, and the blessing of God would attend their efforts
in maintaining its Christianity. He hoped he had
said nothing in any way attacking her Majesty's Go-
vernment, but he would wish that they would grasp
these difficulties and abuses manfully and courageously,
and adopt every effort to prevent such opinions spread-
ing in a Christian country. In Coventry he understood
that they were erecting a Socialist meeting-house. and
that their two Parliamentary representatives had sub-
scribed to it.
The Bishop of EXETER said he thought it his
duty to write to both of those Gentlemen alluded to
by the Right Rev. Prelate who spoke last, stating that
it, was his intention to refer to this subject on that even-
ing,;
Bishop but onieoofptohros:
OGeNntlD Gentleman he found was not i
411 orrntdhoant ,
saunedh farno ma s
st
eh
ret other
waseOr heNsaid
untrue.received
The
his ho
authority
letter,t
ry was
the t s
vat -5
the last publication of the Socialist newspaper, in
which it was stated that there was '2Ol. subsc, ibed by
the Members for the borough towards the building of
this new hall.

Viscount MELBOURNE said from the many per-
sonal observations which had been made, he deemed it
necessary
address their Lordships. lie admitted
being the person who, in the course of last June per.
formed the office of introducing Mr. Owen to Court ;
but, in admitting that fact, he strongly protested against
the conclusion drawn from it, that by performing
that act, he became responsible for, or in any-
way idenitfied vri,h the opinions of that indivi-
dual.—( Hear.) And he wished to disclaim any
such notion with respect to Mr. Owen, or any other
person he might do the same office for. lie merely
performed a formal duty, for the purpose of giving Mr.
Owen an opportunity of discharging what he would call
his constitutional right—that of presenting a petition
to her Majesty.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Owen waited on
him last summer, and mentioned to him (Lord Mel-
bourne) the great schemes he had in view for the pur-
pose of reforming all ev;ls under the total regeneration
system, and having expressed a wish to go to the Levee,
he asked him (Lord Melbourne) to introduce him.
He ( Lord Melbourne) did not see anything in Mr.
Owen's character or situation in life which ought
to preclude him from attending Court. The Right Rev.
Prelate had made it a very strong charge against
her Majesty's Government for not having taken mea-
sures for the suppression of those opinions that unfor-
tunately prevailed among that class of persons calling.
themselves " Socialists." Those opinions were de-
cidedly pernicious, and he did not consider them free
from danger, because they were wild and visionary.—
(Hear, hear.) He remembered, in the course of last

Session, a Noble Duke made an observation which was
replete with good sense and judgment, and as it was
applicable to the present case, he would repeat it.
That Noble Duke had said that "he had the fullest
reliance upon the powers of truth, as he was
perfectly convinced it would ultimately vindicate
itself." Such an observation, coming from the
Noble Duke was particularly valuable, when they consi-
dered he was in communication with all classes of per-
so..s and conditions of mankind. He (Lord Melbourne)
wished he could share in the confidence of the Noble
Duke, but the atmosphere of calumny, falsehood, and
malignity must operate against so desirable an event ;
and although truth might vindicate itself ultimately,
error might prevail for a considerable time, more espe-
cially when assisted by the active instruments which find
their existence in this atmosphere of calumny, falsehood,
and malignity. He bad no doubt the Right Rev. Pre-
late was right in putting this question, for it was impos-
sible not to be under great apprehensions at those opi-
nions continuing to prevail in the conntry, not only with
respect to those opinions of Mr. Owen, but almost every
other subject, whether political or religious, which
was often carried to an extravagant and extreme degree.
He thought it was possible that the acts of that Society
might be within the penalties of the Act of Parliament ;
but, however, it. was a different question, whether it
would be advisable to enforce that Act. It had not
been of late carried into effect—it had solely acted by
terror, and it had never any real or practical results.
There were other Societies of a most serious character,
which had branches throughout the country, and which
were equally opposed to the letter of the Act. He
therefore much doubted whether the step recommended
by the Right Rev. Prelate would be found effectual for
the purpose for which he had demanded that it should
be enforced. He says, however, that the object
of Mr. Owen is to alter the present state of the
Constitution and the property in the country,
and that, therefore, it must be illegal. Possibly that
was so, but that was not an illegality which could be
proceeded against at the present day, and the law was
not one which could now be applied. What, he would
ask, was there sacred in the State? What was there
established that we had not societies for the purpose of
overturning ? There were voluntary societies for the
purpose of doing away with the Church Establishment,
to which many most respectable men belonged. He
did think that the objects of the society referred to made
it illegal, and yet he should say, that if a society which
would alter the whole frame of the Constitution was il-
legal, that a society for altering part of it would be ille-
gal in the same degree. He was afraid that a
prosecution against those societies for holdiag specula-
tive opinions with respect to property, or government,
or even religion, might not be advisable, and he very
much questioned whether that prosecution could be suc-
cessful. At the same time he should now observe that
he had gone further into the question than he should
have wished to do, because he was most unwilling and re-
luctant to say anything which could induce others to think
that he approved of those opinions. There was nothing
he abhorred or detested more. Others might have
listened to Mr. Owen—he had always thought his opi-
nions the wildest nonsense that could be imagined.—
(Hear, hear.) He did not dislike his system the less
because it proceeded from a feeling of humanity, or
from a wish to improve the condition of mankind.
It did not appear to him to be the less, dangerous on
that account ; because it had been often observed that
those who had professed the deepest and strongest
wishes, and the most tender feelings of humanity and
compassion, became in the course of events the most
ruthless and bloody. It was an observation made by a
leader of the French Revolution that it was that
which was most absurd that led to what was most san-
guinary. He did not wish to say one word which could
excuse those opinions, of which he deeply la:nented the
existence ; but the question was, what was the prudent
mode of proceeding and of dealing with them.—
(Hear, hear, hear.) They all knew that for many
years it had been the practice of the Governments of
this country, not only of the present one, and of that
which preceded it, but of the Government for several
years before—that it had been their practice to abstain
from prosecutions on such subjects as the present.
They had allowed the press to go on entirely unques-
tioned and uncontrolled, and that had been a policy very
striking and strongly acted upon by a Noble and
Learned Lord, who sat on the opposite benches, both
when Attorney and when Solicitor-General prosecutions
were found to be unavailing. It was found to be very
doubtful whether they did not increase what they were
intended to repress. The whole policy of Governments
lately had been to leave the press unconstrained and
uncontrolled by anything like legal animadversion. He
thought, he must say, that the experiment was a
doubtful one. He thought it questionable whether the
public might bear much longer the misrepresentations
and the falsehoods of the press—its not saying one
word of truth, and its perversion of every fact and of
every reasoning. Whether the public could much
longer endure all that, be considered a very serious
question, and a very great experiment. He did not,
however, see another mode of proceeding in this re-
' spect than through public opinion, and he did not think
anything else could be tried or attempted with any thing
resembling a probability of success. He certainly could
not help entertaining a doubt whether any other course
would be advisable, even in the case brought under the
notice of the House by the Right Reverend Prelate.
Yet, though he did not give his opinion as to the
course which he would recommend to be pursued, he
acknowledged it was a matter which demanded the
very serious attention of Government. It was unques-
tionably their duty to watch over this matter, and to
consider whether they had any means of repressing the
system, if it were making its way with the rapidity which
had been stated. He trusted, however, that that was
not the ease, and their wild opinions were naturally
spawned and produced in a state of society like that
in which we lived ; they were produced by the dis-
tress which now prevailed, and by the opinions which
existed in the minds of men that by a change things
might be made better than they were, and that their
miseries were owing to the Constitution under
which they lived. There was naturally a straining in
men after a perfection which they were nowhere told to
expect or to think possible, which led them to those ex-
treme opinions which at the present day are urged with
all that violence which belongs to the proceedings of
the times in which we live.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE would trouble the House
for no other reason than for the purpose of calling atten-
tion to a letter which he had received on the present
subject on that very morning from a Magistrate at Shef-
field. The conclusion of the letter stated that Mr Owen
had been presented to the Queen by the Noble Viscount
opposite without having solicited that honour. It was
a voluntary act on the part of the Noble Viscount, and
he (Lord Wharncliffe) alluded to this fact for the pur-
pose or showing how imprudently the Noble Viscount
had acted on the occasion.

The Duke of WELLINGTON rose principally for
the purpose of giving his nest thanks to the Right Rev.
Prelate for having drawn the attention of the House to
a system which appeared to prevail so generally, not
perhaps in the country but in the large towns. He
had to add, however, that he had had experience in some
parts of the country, too, of its existence, and of the great
mischief which it had occasioned wherever it prevailed.
He was happy to observe that the Right Rev. Prelate,
by bringing forward the question, had drawn from all
parts of the House an expression of the
detestation which their Lordships felt for it,
He quite agreed with the Noble Viscount opposite, that
it was a very difficult question for Government to de-
termine in what way such a system should be dealt with.
Ile thought that the Right Rev. Prelate had proved
most clearly that the Society in question was an illegal
association ; but, at the same time, it was very doubt-
ful whether it was possible for Government to prose-
cute its members under the Act of Parliament as sug-
gested by the Right Rev. Prelate. There were, how-
ever, other measures to be adopted besides proceeding
by prosecution against such a system, which Govern-
ment might have recourse to, for the purpose of mark-
ing its sense of the atrocity of the objects of those asso-
ciations. He said that the Right Reverend Pre-
late had brought facts before their Lordships
which showed clearly that some measure of this
description, some notice on the part of Government
as a Government, of the atrocity of the objects of those
associations was necessary, on account of the error into
which some Magistrates had fallen, particularly in the
large manufacturing cities. It appeared that in those
places fair play had not been given to those who op-
posed by argument and reasoning the system adopted
by the persons in question. It appeared that Magis-
trates had given the use of the Town•halls for the pur-
pose of adopting the doctrines referred to, while on one
or two occasions they refused permission, if not to
clergymen, at least to persons authorised by them to
preach against that atrocious system. He had himself
lately received a letter on that subject, and he thought it
would be right to warn Magistrates of the illegality of
those associations, and that would be a step entirely
lawful and constitutional in itself, and not unusual, he
believed, in the practice of the country. It appeared
to him that such a proceeding would have some effect
and would be desirable, particularly after the discussions,
in that House. It was the more to be wished for in con-
sequence of the unfortunate circumstance of the gentle-
man who preached these doctrines having been pre-
sented to her Majesty by the Noble Viscount opposite.
He was not at all disposed to enter into any discussion
on that part of the subject, especially as the Noble
Viscount had stated, and with great truth—(A laugh)
—that be had committed an indiscretion on that
occasion. He (the Duke of Wellington) did not
believe that the rule of the Couit was, that no
gentleman should be presented by another unless he
was acquainted with 1,1 m• It did appear that the
Noble Viscount was not only unacquainted with the
doctrines of the gentleman alluded to, but that he did
not know his person.
Lord MELBOURNE here said, amidst some
laughter, that he certainly did know Mr. Owen by
person.
The Duke of WELLINGTON proceeded to say
that he had been mistaken on that subject, and that,
from that circumstance, it was still more desirable that

Government should pronounce, in some form or other,
its opinion on the matter. It should warn Magistrates
to attend to those transactions, and it should take care
to look to the circumstances likely to result from the
subject.

The Earl of GALLOWAY said that the Noble
Viscount had told the House that Mr. Owen had ac-
tually entered with him into the details of his plan for
regenerating society. He most therefore have been
no stranger to the object of Mr. Owen. Now it was
after having been put in possession of this information
that the Noble Viscount had consented to present bim
to her Majesty, and he incurred by that means a very
serious responsibility. He would now only say that the
country was much indebted to the Right Rev. Pre-
late for the part he had taken that night, and he (the
Eirl of Galloway) rejoiced that the Noble Viscount
did not coincide in the opinion of the non-importance of
the subject, which had been expressed by the Noble
Marquis, the Secretary for the Home Department.
The Marquis of NORMAN BY begged to deny
that he had said a word which could lead to suet] an
impression—all he had said was, that the importance of
the matter appeared to him to be doubtful.
The Bishop of EXETER gave notice that he would
on Friday next, ask the Noble Viscount opposite,
whether any change had taken place in the office of
Superintendant Registrar.
Adjourned at Eight o'clock,