The Sun.
London, England, 1840-07-08 00:00:00

THE ARMY IN INDIA.

The LORD CHANCELLOR read a letter from the
Governor-General of India, dated Nliy the 4th, informin;
their Lordships that the Governor- General had re-
ceived a letter, transmitting to him the resolutions of
the House of Lords of the 21st of February last, re-
specting the military operations to the west of
the Indus. Thoso resolutions had been published
and forwarded to the different parties whom their Lord
ships had honoured with their approbation. The great
distinction conferred by the unanimous thanks of the House
of Lords would be duly appreciated by those to whom they
were directed, and must be regarded as the highest reward
of their public services. The Governor-General transmitted
his acknowledgments for the honour which had been done
him.

The letter was ordered to be entered on the Journa!a of
the House.

The Marquis of L ANSDOWNE presented a petition
against the principle of leaving vaccination under the direc-
tion of the Poor-law Commissioners.

The Earl of H ADDINGTON named the select Corn
mittee, of which he had given notice, on the Chimney-
sweepers Bill. The Committee consisted of the Lord
President, the Marquis of Normanby, the Bishop of
London, and others, and was appointed for Thursday.
CANADA BILL.

On the motion of Lord MELBOURNE that the
House should go into Committee on the eanada Govern-
ment Bill,

The Earl of HA RD WICKE said, that in rising in
pursuance of the notice he had given the other day, to
move that the Bill should be committed that
day six months, he felt it his duty to state to their Lord-
ships the grounds on which he took that—what might be
Considered in some degree extraordinary proceeding. It
was perfectly true that be was present when the Bill had
been read a second time, and that ho did not then
indulge in any comments thereon, lout when
l,
-4: had come into their Lordship' House he had not
en by any means awaro that the course then pursued
would have been taken. He confessed that in reflecting
on the mater since that occasion he did think it his duty to
take upon himself to proceed in the manner in which he
was then doing--not consulting any individual—not con-
necting himself with any party, but acting entirely on his
own responsibility, and from „ewe of public duty.
He knew how inadequate he was to the task he
had undertaken ; but he was impelled to do so
by a strong sense of duty, which he could not
bring himself to abandon, arising from a conviction
that this Bill, if it should pass, would lead to the
separation of these colonies from the mother country
Indeed, he would not have been induced to take this step
if he had not been convinced that such would be the in-
evitable result of the Bill. If he had wanted any other
reasons to convince him of this, he had found them in the
speeches of his Noble Friends who had opposed
the Bill.—( Hear, hear.) He did not know what
course those Noble Lords might now take, but if
he had not their support he would, upon his own respon-
sibility, press the motion upon their Lordships. He could
find in the speeches of the Noble Friends to whom he al..
luded sufficient grounds upon which ho could claim their
Lordships' vote ; but he would prefer to rest that claim upon
his statement, and the reasons which influenced him. The
Noble Viscount who introduced the Bill had not shown i
that the measure was necessary for the safety of the em.

involvingpc, i
o alone
much could
hazard.
Nol
introduction
3lelrjs
eof a Bill
oun t
had
drawn cases of analogy from the history of former
times to show that if all our colonies in the western
world disappeared, we could compensate ourselves
for their loss in other quarters of the world. The NoUe
Viscount dil not attempt to shut out the prospect of such
a loss, nor did he offer any sufficient reason why it should
be risked. In the next part of his speech the Noble Vis-
count details the cruses, and be wound up what he had to
say by a statement which conveyed to Li; (Earl Hard.
wicke's) mind'tho netion, that the Noble Viscount himself
was doubtful of the consequence of the measure he had intro-
duced. That speech had failed to convince him that the feel-
ings of the:Neble Lcrd opposite were as firm, or his opinion
as to the efficiency of the measure so fixed as his ( Lord
Hardwiche's) opinion as to the disastrous consequences
which must follow froaa the adoption of such a measure.
That speech tended to show that the Noble Lord was
doubtful if the consequences of the Bill would
be successful or not. Such was the general character
of the Noble Vicount's speech, whatever might have
been its words. He would pass over all that portion of
the history of the colony which related to its conquest by
this country, or to the intention then manifested to govern
it as one province by the French laws; and that portion
which related to the division of the province into two por-
tions for the purpose of forming the Upper Province into
an English Province ; and he would ask their Lordships
if the circumstances of the provinces were so much
changed, and the state of affairs so satisfactory that it was
no longer their duty to keep that division as it was", Let
them see passing an
Act o i f
tParliamenterev' for arunitingg tahuet authorising
%41- provinces into one.
The aggregate of the population was still much the same.
The French population still constituted a large portion of
the inhabitants, and great advantage had been gained by
erecting the Upper Province into an Eagiish citadel.
Did that seem less proper now than it did in the
olden times? But there was one point which
weighed more with him than anything No
union between the two provinces in that country
could be founded on justice. He cared not how they
drew up the Act of Parliament, or in what particular
way it might be worked, but he would contend that no
Act of Union between the two provinces of Upper and
Lower Canada could ever be carried with airy appearance
of justice. If a Bill should pass their Lordships' House
and receive the Royal assent, giving the preponderance
to the British population, by avowedly supporting British
interests above French interests, they mould perpetuate
discord in the colony by making the French population
discontented, as under those circumstances they could
never be satisfied that they were fairly, impartially, or
justly governed. But if they supposed the Bill a just
Bill, and that its principle was that of giving equal politi-
cal rights to a'l the people of the colony, then they would be
committing an injustice on the other party. Those who had
foeght and bled for the best interests of Church and State,
would be handed over to the enmity of titoir opponents,
and the French population would have such a preponder-
ance that it would be impossible for her Majesty's loyal
subjects to carry out those questions in which they were
interested safely and peaceably. Under these circum-
stances he held it impossible to accede to any proposition
for the union of the two provinces. Such being the po-
sition in which they were likely to stand, he felt called upon
to show their Lordships what were the opinions of those
who from the situation in which they were placed might
be supposed to be the best judges on the subject. No
Governor from 1791 to the time of Lord Durham had ever
recommended this union. The Executive Councils had
invariably opposed it. Sir Peregrine Maitland, in a letter
quoted in Sir Francis Head's pamphlet on the subject,
said that this union was calculated to increase the pressure
from the Democratic Assembly, and that it was a measure
deprecated by all the Royalists of Upper Canada. In a
letter dated Toronto, Oct. 1836, Sir Francis Head had
said that a union of the provinces would probably be re-
commended by certain persons in Lower Canada, but that
ha considered such a project could only tend to produce a
separation between Canada and the parent State. The
Houses of Assembly had never once addressed the Crown
in favour of the plan ; on the contrary, they had often
addressed it against it. In an address to his Majesty
William IV., dated March 1839, both Flou=es of the
Legislature of the Lower Province objected to the union
of the provinces on the ground that the Lower
Province was already too large. Other objecting
parties to the Bill were those rho were con-
nected with the most important interests of the colony.
The Ill'shop of Toronto was opposed to the Bill, so also
was Mr. Haggermen, the late Attorney-General for the
Upper Province; in a late speech lie used strong language
with respect to the measure—he said that he could not
vote for the union of the provinces without violating the
oath of allegiance which he had so cheerfully taken so
frequently—he further said that if he were permitted to
approach his Sovereign, he would on his beaded knees
implore her M,jesy to withhold her Royal Assent from
the Bill. If he ( Earl Harderieke) wished to go further
in opposition to the Bill, it would only be necessary
for him to give negative evidence. He might show that
the traitors were in favour of the union—that those who
were outlawed supported the measure. If he showed that
it would strengthen their hands, what hope, what prospect
was there that they could well govern so large a country ?
He had a paper in his hand which he might fairly oiler in
evidence, because it was a signed document, which he had
received from Sir F. Head only a day or two ago, on ap-
plication to him for reasons against the B:11. The Noble
Lord then read the paper, in which the lion. Baronet said
the Queen lied recommended the union of the provinces
to the Parliament without any communication to himself,
Sir P. Maitland, or Sir John Colborne--'hat the bitter had
returned the Bill to the Government with an expression
f his strong dissent.
Lord SE ATOM —inns is not -lie ease. C4e.ra.
Esti HARDWICKE—It was so stated, and the Hen.
Baroswt ee•-• • e.e, ;r or
aeroton were appealed to in the House, they svoulil express
their dissent. The Noble Eail then proceeded to say,
that those were the statements, and those were the opi-
nions of a gentleman, whatever might be thought of
his government of Upper Canada, had at all events sue_
cecdcd in repressing the rebellion there—who had eue-
ceeded in saving that country to the British
( Ch'eers. ) He (the Earl of Harclwicke) had shown that
none of the Gavtrnors since 1791—that none of the
Councla since 1791, and that none of the Parliaments
since 1791, had ev: r petitioned in favour of the protiosed
measure ; while in one instance they had petitioned
against it. lie could also show that the Government
itself was not prepared up to a late period to adopt the
proposal. (The Noble Earl then read an extract from a
letter writtiart by Lord J. Russell in the year 1837 in
proof of this assertion ) The impression, therefore, on
his mind was that the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell)
who had intraduezd the measure, and the Govarnm^nt
itself, could not be so satisfied of its success as to he able
to introduce it with that sort of confidence which would be
desirable on so important a subject. lie had shown that
the Bishop of Toronto, that the Attorney-General of
Upper Canada, that Lord Gosford, and Sir F. Head,
were unfavourable to the principle of a union of the two
provinces. He would next ask who ncre the men Ins
whom it was recommended. They had never heard of
the union as con': plated to be carried into efFect by all
the Legislatures, till the Earl of Durham's expensive Re-
port—he used the word expensive in the sense that it was
all that had been got for the outlay of upwards of a million
Df. money.—( Hear.) Ile called the attention of the
House to that Report, in order to show that it was not
worthy of being a guide on so important a subject as that
of the union of the Canadas. What had Sir Peregrine
Maitland, who had been a long time in the colonies, said
of that Report ? Why that he belieted it was an unfaith-
ful representation of tine state of the colony. Sir Francis
Head had designated it as a tissue of unintentional errors ;
Sir George Arthur bad stated that it was full of errors
and mistakes, and that the Noble Earl had ben
ereatly misinformed. The House of Assembly had also
passed same opinion on the Report, and had refuted
many of its allegations, the truth of which the Noble Earl
was unable to vouch. Added to that, Chief Justice: Ho.
hinson had charac..erized the Report as most unfounded in
many:of its assertions and details, yet notwithstanding all
this, that Report had been brought before the Imperial
Parliament, and upon it the Government had recommended
the unions of the two Canaslas, although in addition to all
this, the inhabitants of the Canadas themselves were o'
opinion that the Report was dangerous and unjustifiable.
But then it had been said, that the union was necessary.
Now he ( Lord Hardwicke) believed that if such an opi-
nion had been expressed it had been obtained by fraud and
coercion. —( Hoar, hear.) They had been led to believe
that the great Conservative party in this country, were in
favour of the union, and they had also been impressed
with the opinion that those who did not approve of the
union, if they were public servants of the Crown, would
be dismissed.—( Hear, hear.) He believed therefore,
that the opinion of the blouse of Assembly was not an
honest one, and as a proof of that it was only necessary
to refer Noble Lords to the debate that had taken place
in the Nouse of Assembly.—(Hear, hear.) (The Noble
Earl here referred to certain debates which had taken
place in the House of Assembly, and also to a despatch of
Lord John Russell's, to prove that coercion had been
used.) He thought that the House was now legislating
for the Canadas under circumstances so doubtful, that he
for one would never be induced to give his assent to the
Bill.—(llear, hear.) It had been said, that those who op-
posed the present measure ought to be prepared with some
other to fill its place, as the Canadas could not exist in their
present state three months longer. He believed that the
very reverse was the case, and it was his firm opinion if
the Canadas were left in their present condition three
months longer it would be the best thing that could pos-
sibly take place.—(Hear, hear.) In Upper Canada they
had loyal Englishmen who were devoted to the interests
of the empire, and he believed if the Government would
only introduce into the country good and just 'government
—if they would only countenance the loyal and put aside
Reformers, Radicals, and traitors, they would secure to the
country a fortress that could not be taken by storm.—
( Hear, hear.) He bad considered it a matter of duty to
bring the subject forward, and in pursuing the course he
had done be could assure their Lordships he had been in-
fluenced by no party motives—( Hear, hear)—for party
motives never had and never should influence him when
he thought the integrity of the empire was in any manner
endangered.—( Hear, hear.) _ _

Lord SE ATON, who spoke from the cross-benches,
said that after the statements of the Noble Lord, he could
not refrain from offering a few remarks. He felt the
greatest apprehension for the probable results of the union
of the Canadas—(Hear, hear)—and he believed that
every person acquainted with both the colonies were of the
same opinion. But, as matters now stood, it would be
more injurious to the provinces and the country to defer
the Bill, than to proceed with it.—(Hear, hear.)
The Duke of WELLINGTON concurred in nearly
all that had been said by the Noble Earl who had moved
the amendment; and in doing so, be did not depart from
the opinion he had given upon a former evening, that the
Bill, as it at present stood, was extremely dangerous,
(Hear, hear)—and hi 3 firm belief was, that the Ca-
nadas would be lost to the country if the sys-
tem proposed by the present Bill should not succeed.
The discussion that had taken place during the last week
had tended hu a great degree to show the manner in which
the opinion of the Legislature of Upper Canada had been

obtained, end afforded a strong ground for their Lord-
ships to deliberate well before they hurried the mer-sure
throueli the Hoes.:.—( Hear. ) With respect to the des-
patch of Lord J. Rio,sell, be felt beund to say that it was
not fair to publish it et the period et which that publication
took olsce, because the consequence of that publication
was, that this country did not get the fair opinion of the
ere ef Upper Canada epee the
Ueion of the Upper and Lower Provinces; and yet the
Noble Lord had come forward relying upon that opinion,
and that expressed in the report of Lord Durham,
and preposed a measure for Cee Union of the Cicadas.
Le,sislat question of the
The despatch cf Lord John Russell was everywhere re-
ceived as a strong recommendation to insist upon respon-
sible Governmems. In Nova Scotia the people went to
the Governor and demanded it as a right, and because he
did not comply they petitioned her Majesty to dismiss
him—so it wee in other provinces. Hosvever, he would
entreat his Noble Friend that he would not press his amend-
ment, so that the measure might be well considered in
Committee. The Government would then propose their
amendments, and if they were not pleasing to his Noble
Friend, then he might oppose them. He earnestly en-
treated them not to reject the measure proposed by the
Government—let them consider what was the opinion of
others well acquainted with the ease in another place—let
them also carefully consider the opinions of those who had
administered the government of those countries, and net
take his (the Duke of Wellington's) opin;on. He had
shown what a serious responsibility would fall upon the
Government if what he had been informed of the despatch
was well founded. What he would earnestly recommend,
and what he would certainly move in Committee, was that
the Government should reserve to themselves the power
of suspending the measure fur one or two years if it should
become necessary. Since he had last addressed the
House upon the subject, certain hostilities had occur-
red upon the frontier, in the case of ri steamboat. As long
as anything of that kind was passing, he would recom-
mend to Noble Lords on the opposite side to consider well
in what position they would stand if they were unable to
carry their scheme into execution with safety,
and yet at
the same time have no legal power to govern the country
in any other manner than by a united legislature in the
provinces.
Viscount MELBOURNE and Earl HARDWICKE rose
together—the latter, however, gave way, and the Noble
Viscount said the Noble Earl had made a most unneces-
sary apology to their Lordships for the course he had
thought it his duty to take upon the present occasion. He
had a perfect right to pursue it, and no one could call it
unfair; so also had he, in the latter part of his speech,
made unnecessary deprecations, for no one would attribute
unworthy, improper, or party motives to tile Noble Earl
on that occasion.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl had
referred to the speeches of the Noble Duke (Wellington)
and the Noble Lord (Ellenborough) upon the second
reading of the Bill. He thought that fair enough. Ile
had also referred to what had fallen from him (Viscount
Melbourne), and he said that he had opened the measure
as one in which he had no confidence himself. He begged
leave to say that he had introduced it with that doubt
which every human being must feel upon a question of
such magnitude. Considering the state of those pro-
vinces—considering the state
of
this country, he said at
once that this was a necessary measure, and that the
sooner it was adopted the better. lie would hint to their
Lordships, also, that the less it was accompanied with ex-
pressions of fear or apprehension, the more likely
would be its ultimate success. (Hear, hear.)
An expression of such opinions might save their
Lordships' credit : but it would be highly detri-
mental to the best interests of their country. He denied
that he had ever said that those colonies might be sepa-
rated from the mother country, and that she would re-
ceive reparation from colonies which were being founded
its other places. All he wanted was to impress upon their
Lordships that it was by internal discord and violent de-
clamation in Parliament, by speeches from various Mem-
bers, that former contests had arisen. All he wanted was
to warn their Lordships not, by violent speeches against
a-Bill they were about to pass, to weaken its influence in the
country it was intended to govern. He wished also to
state to their Lordships, that although this country had
astonishingly recovered from all former losses and separa-
tions, he would warn them that the same consequences
might not arise in future difficulties of the same character,
and therefore he would entreat that they would encourage
a general resolution, one which would be productive—one
that would avert and avoid evils that would now
be greater than in former times.—Loud cries of " Hear,
hear.") The speech of the Noble Lord had been confined
to the opinions of former Governors of that colony. He
had made but few objections to the Bill ; the only one of
consequence was that it would not be just. He (Viscount
M.) said that it would be just—nay, more, that the present
measure was a just and fair one. Unless it were compati-
ble with the principles of justice it ought not to be enter-
tained for a moment. There was nothing the Government
so much deprecated as that they should give a partial and
exclusive constitution under the appearance of fairness.
Considering the relative condition of the two Provinces,
and considering their various characteristics, the Bill before
their Lordships gave as fair a representation as could pos-
sibly be devised. It was only by a measure of this kind
that constitutional government could be restored in Lower
Canada, end that was one of the most cogent reasons why it
was incumbent upon the Legislature to adopt the measure.
The Noble Earl had quoted the opinions of Sir Peregrine
Maitland ; he had also quoted the opinions of a very lively
and imaginative writer who lately was Governor of the Upper
Province. That lively writer, in his usual style, ha I stated
in the paper read by the Noble Earl, that the union of the
provinces would be like the union of tainted and fresh
wheat.—( A laugh.) That was riot an argument, nor
could he see the applicability of tlic simile. Upon the
principles of that Hon. Baronet, they must continue the
peresept unconstitutional form of esivernment in Lower
Canada nevieresete. so: 44thoritv of sie
Head must go as far as it was worth, but the reasons, in his-
opinion, were worth very little. The Noble Earl bad
also quoted the opinions of the Bishop of Toronto and Mr.
Hag'-rman. But he mcrley stated their opinions, and
r gave his reasons upon which those opinicns were founded.
The Noble Earl then rgain quoted a long paper written
by Sir F. Head, no doubt very wil. ingly, at the
request of the Noble Eat 1, beceuFe lie would
most cheerfully do so at the request of ha
Lordship er all of their Lordships.—( A laugh.)
One statement in that paper was that the Council of Sir
George Arthur had repreeented to him their opinion as
being against the Union, but that was not the case. All
that they did was to represent that it would he unwise to
itiesolve the Ilous,. of Aoserri'Ay on the question. The
Noble Lord then coked what were the authorities in favour
of the Union, and in alluding to Lord Durham's R-
port
he stated that it was all th,t we had got for a million of
money. What he meant by that ho (Lord M.) did not
know, unless he meant to charge the whole expenses of
rho year against that Report, and if so that was hardly
fair. Ile (Lord M.) did not think that Report was a
document of unimpeachable authority, but he had always
said, and would maintain, that it contained much
important matter that was most deserving of con-
sideration. The noble Earl could not deny
that the opinion of the House of Assembly of Upper
Canada had been given in favour of the union, but he said
it was not an honest opinion. Now that was using very
strong langua..;e respecting what must be admitted to be a
respectable body, because they had been admitted into the
Government of the country. Ever taking it for granted that
they had been told that the Queen was desirous of the
measure—that they had been told that Sir Robert Peel
was in favour of it—supposing,
that they were told that
great pecuniary advantage would arise from the measure,
acid that if they did not vote fur it they would, under the.
despatch of Lord Jelin Russell, Joie their places, still
it was entertaining a very low opinion of their power to
resist corruption to say that they were to be detached
from their property, and it was using harsh language
to say that they were not honest in their opinion
respecting the measure. Their Lordships could not think
for a moment that there was any validity in the argument
—they could not admit that without charging a very severe
libel upon our own Legislature. It was well known that
in both Houses men held offices only upon condition of
agreeing with the Minister of the day. If the argument
of the Noble Lord were to be carried out to its full extent
they could have no confidence in the decision either of
that House or of the other House of Parliament. The
argument which had been put forth by the Noble Earl
and the Noble Duke was the very same as that put for-
ward by the lowest and most Radical papers which were
published, for whenever a decision had been come to they
immediately gave the names of the Ministers and other
office-holders, and charged them with having voted in order
to maintain their places. The measure in his opinion was
absolutely necessary, and he thought it the best the House
could adopt under the present circumstances. He did
not believe that such danger to the country existed as had
been stated by the Noble Lord. Even the Noble Earl
did not think it was possible to maintain the present state
of things in Lower Canada, The Noble Duke said that
it would be wise to delay the measure, but he
should warn the House against anything like inde-
cision ; anything like hesitation or irresolution or doubt
must weaken the effect of the measure, and would
net essarily create opposition to the measure, and render
its success mere doubtful. The more speedily it was
passed, and the less fear that was openly entertained of
its working, the more likely would be its ultimate success.
Ile did not know what had been the effect of the publica-
tion of the despatches alluded to by the Noble Duke, nor
was he aware of the manner in which it had been done.
He was anxious that the measure should be passed as
speedily as Possible, but still be was anxious that the
Bill should receive the fullest discussion in every stage.
A future opportunity would offer itself, and by that time
he would take care to inform himself respecting it.
The Duke of WELLINGTON explained.
The Earl of WICKLOW could not give his vote for
the motion of the Noble Earl below him without express-
ing the pain he would feel in not attending to the recom-
mendation of the Noble Duke. His opinion was not
founded upon his own observations, but was formed by the
opinions of others and, as a British senator, hp would not
feel that he was cl,' duty if he did not act upon his
oing his
own impressionof suck importance. Not
upon a matter
one Member in the House who had risen upen the subject,
except two Members of the Government, who were the
framers of the Bill, but bad expressed great fears of its
success. They had also the high authority of the Noble
Lord upon the cross-benches (Lord Seaton), that delay
would not be dangerous, although the union, in his opinion,
would. Why then, with; such authority, should they
run the danger, When a much better measure
might be introduced and perfected next year ?
He thought that this, if a reflection upon any one, was
a reflection upon those who had held out threats upon this
subject. Was the Noble viscount so ignorant of the
history of the unions with Scotland and Ireland as not to
know that these threats were capable of producing great
effects. It was an act of injustice to the French Cana-
dians, and no Act based upon injustice ought to meet with
the sanction of the Legislature of this country. It was in-
capable of ig, any produe'dgood, and if the recent distur-
bances had taken place under a union of the provinces,
the first remedy that would have suggested itself would
have been the separation of such incongruous elements.
He thought that the best way ,TPll.lclelee to permit tire Ca-
nadians to remain ris they' wesefni the present, . .u;
few years they might be able to restore their legislat • uie to

of Assembly of Upper Canada, of the great services ren-
dered by that body in a time of danger; after the credit
which had been given to a former Governor for having
procured the election of that Assembly, he thought it was
too much now, at the ninth hour of their existence, to ire-
pute to them that they had not come to an honest
decision o's this subject, in consequence of the de-
spatch of his Noble Friend, the Secretary for the Colonies,
He bad not been a.vare that one of his Noble Friend's
despatches had been published, and the other not; but
thm-e. was a clear distinction between the two. In the
one the Governor was directed to do an act affecting the
interests of other individuals, and therefore he was called
upon to make the contents of that despatch known to those
whose interests it might affect. By the other despatch he
was directed not to do a certain thing ; so that there was
a plain distinction between the two cases. It was true
his Noble Friend had made the speech alluded to in
1837. He had repeated the same speech last- year ; and
he himself, when addressing their Lordships, had given
utterance to similar opinions. He could assure the Noble
Earl opposite that he was mistaken if he imagined that
Lord Durham had gone out to Canada with any precon-
ceived opinions on the subject. That Noble Earl had
formed his opinions entirely upon what he had witnessed
in that country ; and, whatever might be said of that Re-
port, he would never hesitate to declare his opinion that
it was the work of a master-mind, containing a wonderful
degree of information respecting the colony which had
been collected in a short time. He entreated their
Lordships to consider the weight of authority there was
in favour of that measure. The Executive Council in
Lower Canada, the greater number of whom had been
appointed by the Noble Lord on the cross-benches, were
in favour of the measure. The opinion of the English
merchants here was in f..vour of it. The House of
Assembly of Upper Canada, collected by Sir Francis
Head, to whom so much praise had frequently been
given in that House, for having procured the election of
that very Assembly, was in favour of it. The opinion of
the British inhabitants of Lower Canada, of Upper
Canada, and of the present Governor-General of the
colony, were in favour of it, and what had they on the
contrary ? The opinions of former Governors-General
were certainly valuable in relation to the times at which
they were given, but had nothing happened since ? It
was perfectly natural for Sir Peregrine Maitland to have
said, in a time of tranquillity, that they wished for no
change, as they were very well as they were; but had
nothing occurred since that time? The Representative
Government had been suspended in one province, and
they could not speedily look forward to its
restoration. (Hear, hear) The large mass of
the English population of that colony were natu-
rally impatient under their present form of
Government, and in this state of things, what were they
to do ? They must do something, and why not do that
which, under all the circumstances, would lead to a just
settlement of the question ?

The Earl of GOSFORD said that he did not con-
sider the assertion, that the French population was ready
to break out in rebellion, was founded in fact.

The Marquis of NOR MANBY said that the Noble
Lord would then propose the restoration of the French
Assembly—that would be one way of coming to a settle-
ment of the question ; but that was not a plan to which
he thought their Lordships would be likely to accede.
The better plan, he thought, would be to unite the two
provinces ; and, considering the great increase that was
likely to take place in the British population in these
colonies in consequence of immigration, he really
did not see that the proportion of representatives was so
very unjust. The geographical position of Upper
Canada was one reason why they might be anxious for a
union of the two Provinces, in order to procure a free
access to the sea. This might certainly be termed a
pecuniary reason, but still it was a very fair and just
reason for their making this application to their Lord-•
ships. They had the authority of the Noble and Gallant
Lord on the cross-benches, for stating that the dislike of
the French Canadians to the Union was lessened, and he
thought that the Union would secure to both Provinces
great advantages—commercial freedom to the Upper
Province and the restoration of constitutional freedom to
the Lower.—(Cheers.)
The Earl of H ARD WICK E replied. They had now
an opportunity of settling the question of the access to the
sea by the Upper Province, and he was convinced that
they could now obtain that without any union. He felt
himself embarrassed by the request that had been made to
him by his Noble Friend, but he thoug':t he could not do
better than by Tollowing the example of the Noble Duke,
who had always acted upon those principles which he
considered just and straightforward, and therefore he must
press the question to a division.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and their Lord-
ships divided on the original motion—
Contents ... lO7
Non-Contents
Majority —99
. .

On our re-admission we found their Lordships in Corn.
mittee.

The Duke of WELLINGTON proposed certain
amendments as to the time when the Bill should come into
operatiou, but upon the suggestion of Lord Melbourne,
he postponed them until the bringing up the Report.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH gave notice that on the
bringing up the Report he should also propose several
amendments relating to local taxation.

The Bill then went through Committee, and was re•
ported with one amendment. The Report was then or•
dered to be received on Thursday.
Their Lordships then adjourned to Thursday next.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, JULY 7.
The SPEAK ER took the chair shortly before Four o'Clock.
Lord ROBERT GROSVENOR presented a petition
' .-e-ler9. of the metropolis,
signed by upwards of 3,000 persons, prayisyg the House
to sanction any measure for the embankment of the Thames,
unless provision was made for the recreation of the public.
RAILWAYS.
The NOBLE Loan then moved, pursuant to notice, that in
any application to Parliament in the next Session for leave
to bring in a Bill for making any railways recommended
by Government Commisioners, such of the Standing Or-
ders only as related to Bills of the second elms, except
railways, should be considered applicaEe thereto.
Mr. W. 0. STANLEY seconded the motion.
Mr. GREENE, at the same time that he gave the
motion at present his decided opposition, thought that the
subject was one which might with advantage be sent for
the consideration of the Committee on private business.
Sir G. STRICKLAND considered the February and
March notices, as they were called, of so much import.
ance fur the protection of the proprietors of laud through
which railways were proposed to be carried, that he could
not consent to this proposition for interfering with the
Standing Orders res::ecting those notices.
Mr. ORMSBY GORE also opposed the motion.
Mr. LABOUCHE RE did not think the House could
safely or justly depart from the Standing Orders which
the House had laid down as a general rule with regard
to railways; at the same time he was aware there were
special circumstances in the present case, which might
create a doubt upon the subject ; but he thought the
course recommended by the Hon. Member for Lancas-
ter was that which the House could most safely act
upon.—( Hear, hear, bear.) He should be sorry to
see the House take a course iiablo to very serious
objection, namely, to depart from those general
rules which the House had announced to the public, and
which the public had a right to expect the House would
adhere to, except under very special circumstances. He
was not prepared to vote for the proposal of his Noble
Friend behind him (Lord Robert Grosvenor) that the
House should at once suspend the Standing Orders, but
he thought the circumstances of the case did justify the
House in referring it to a Committee ; and the best tri-
bunal
for that purpose was the Standing Order Committee.
He should, therefore, support the motion for referrinv the
question to the Standing Order Committee, but he could
not recommend that the constitution of that Committee
should be altered by the introduction upon it of the Hon.
and Learned Member for Chester, who had certainly taken
a decided part in regard to the Holyhead and Chester
Railway. The best course the House could pursue was to
adopt the suggestion of the Hon. Member for Lancaster.
Lord R. GROSVENOR, after what had taken place,
would have no hesitation in withdrawing his motion in fa.
your of the amendment of the Hon. Gentleman opposite.
The question was then put, that it be an instruction to
the Private Business Committee to inquire whether, under
the special circumstances of the case, the motion of the
Noble Lord ought to be agreed to, and that they report
their opinion to the House.

Sir J. GRAHAM agreed with the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman opposite that in all Railway Bills it was most im-
portant that the notices ought to be rigidly enforced. If
there were special circumstances in this case, the Corn-
mittec would assuredly attend to them.
Mr. ESTCOURT felt bound to oppose both the mo-
tion and the amendment ; no case had been made out for
relaxation. It was most important that the Standing Or-
ders should be strictly adhered to.
Mr. SHAW would be sorry to think that a great na-
tional undertaking, like the railroad communication be-
tween Londoh and Dublin, should be set on foot without
proper inquiry. He therefore thought it should be referred
to the Private Business Committee.

Mr. SL A NEY would vote in favour of the amendment
of his Hon. Friend, inasmuch as it would enable the mat-
ter to be fully inquired into.
Mr. 0. GORE would not consent to any facilities being
given to the undertaking, which the rules of the House
did not sanction.

Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment B4
For the motion 57
Majority in favour of the amend-
ment
—27
The Report of the Committee on the Clyde Navigation
Bill was brought up, and a clause was ordered to be added,
and certain amendgeents were agreed to.
The Wodehouse Estate Bill was read a second time,
and ordered to be committed.
The Gregson's Estate Bill was read a second time, and
ordered to be committed.
The Order of the Day for the third reading of Ruthven's
Estate Bill was read and discharged.
Mr. W. E VANS moved that leave should be given to
the Committee on the Midland Counties Railway Bill to
sit end proceed and report on Thursday.—Agreed to.
The Warrington School Estate Bill was read a third
time and passed.

MEDICAL REFORM.
Mr. WARBURTON postponed his motion, which
stood on the paper for to-night, with respect to Medical
Reform, till that day fortnight.
Sir E. WILMOT gave notice, that upon the Paro-
chial Assessment Bill being brought on, he should move
an amendment, to the effeet that machinery should not
be subject to be rated.

IRISH REGISTRATION.
Mr. O'CONNELL gave notice of his intentiott on the
earliest possible day in the next Session to move for leave
to bring in a Bill to extend and define the elective fran-
eh of the people of Ireland, ;ini for the, more er.i:y ar!
cir:•ctual registration of voters,— (Langlitttr frOtn the Up.
position side of the House.

C•tnaia. He regcettcd to erffer a ith the Noble
Duke below him. Upon many T.—Arty quest ion; he felt it
L
to be the duty of men in seine instances tA sacrifice their
pr:v...te opinions, but upon a great: que:tiot like this, he
fcit bound in conscience to vote against this nicasuro.
The loss of the Causdas would erat Nit the lOSS of every
British possession. Hs should vote vs IA tiro Noble. Ezal
for the rejection of this Bill. .

The Earl of GOSFOUD said the is bole pr.inciple of
this proceeding arose from misrepresents tion, and on that
ground he should oppose it. He trusted t 4nt whatever de-
cision they might come to might be for t. 'to advantage of
the Canadas, but he considered the proposi eg such a mea-
sure a blot upon the character of this counts Y.
The Marquis of NORM ANBY said that if ever there
was an opinion favourable to this measure it was that given
by his Noble and Gallate. Friend on the c eos.s-benches.
The measure had the approbation of the gre it majority of
people in this country and in Canada. Ti to is Leasure of
last year had been postponed in order to give tic se for col-
lecting opinions in the colonies, and he felt cony inced that
had his Noble and Gallant Friend entertained as •y insupere
able objection to the union he would have felt it his duty
to have stated it to him. Instead of that he bad in his
despatches used much the same sort of lingual se that he
had used that night. He had said that he Can, aght there
might be some danger attending the measure, but under
all the circumstances of the case he thought: it the best
measure that could be proposed.
Lord SEATON said the measure having 1 seen adeptcd
upon Lord Durham's recommendation, he h ad given his
advice as to what he considered the best metl sod of carry-
ing it into effect, and had also stated wh ent were the
opinions of the people upon it, as far as he could judge.
He thought the people of Upper Canada were in favour
of the measure, and that the British population of Lower
Canada were also for it—but he himself had den tots upon
the expediency of the measure, and he thought i t his duty
to inform the Government that he entertained g seat fears
as to the dangers likely to arise from the union.
The Marquis of NORMA NBY was glad he bad given
way to his Noble and Gallant Friend, bee;au se he felt
convinced that what he had said formed a 'strong reason
for inducing their Lordships to pass this Bill. He had
stated that the Upper Province was for the eseasure, and
that the British population of the Lower Pro since, was in
favour of it, and, in his despatch of the 19th August, his
Noble and Gallant Friend had stated his opii lion precisely
as he had just stated it to their Lordships. In that de-
spatch his Noble and Gallant Friend had, cif all things,
deprecated opposition to the measure as likely• to endanger
the tranquillity of the colonies, therefore a r nom unfortu-
nate allusion than that of his Noble Friend oyposite in sup-
port of the motion of his Noble Relative, eotild not well
have been made. After all they had heard of the House
Mr. GROTE gave notice, that he should, on that day
fortnight, bring forward a motion on the subject of the
recent appointment of the Land Fund of New South
Wales to purposes other than emigration.
PRESENTATION OF PETITICINS.
Mr. E. J. STANLEY brought up the Metropolis
Improvement Bill, and moved that it be read a first time.
The SPEAKER was about to put the questicen, when
Sir R. PEEL had come down to the House -Ter four days
with a petition, but had not been able to present it in conse-
quence of the private business occupying up to five o'clock.
lie perfectly acquiesced in the rule which prevented de-
baling petitions and restricted the time of thicir presenta-
tion, but when the public business occupied mere than the
usual time of the House, he thought there ought to be
some relaxation of the rule.—(Hear, hear, from both tides
of the House.)
The SPEAKER —lf it is the wish of the House after,
this motion is disposed of, to receive petitions, I can
have no objection, but of course it is my duty to adhere
to the rules which the House has laid down._( Hear, hear.)
The Bill was then read a first time.
Sir G. STRICKLAND presented a petition from a
Gas Company- against the Bill for the exemption of stock
in trade from being rated. Their pipes had been declared
by a court of law not to be stock in trade, but real property.
The Bill now before the House would release others from
rates to their detriment.
Mr. WILLIAMS presented a petition from a place in
the county of Warwick, praying for the abolition of Church-
rates.

Mr. EASTHOPE presented petitions from nearly
every county in England, praying for the immediate abo-
lition of Church-rates : in all 92 in number.
Mr. WARBURTON presented a petition from certain
agricultural labourers in Hants, setting forth that they
worked at 9s. per week wages; that from time immemo-
rial they had had the privilege of cutting turf on a com-
mon in the neighbourhood, but that lately same of the
proprietors attempted to put a stop to it, and that they had
brought four actions against therm whereas one would have
as well settled the question. They prayed that parties
might be allowed to defend th..mselves informs pauperis,
as well as sue in that character.
Mr. HAMILTON presented a pet;tion from Oxford
against the Poor-law Continuance 11.11.
Lord SANDON presented a petition from a Baptist
Congregation in the Commercial-road, against the traffic in
opium, and praying that House to avert the war vvitliChina;
also a petition praying for the immigration of labourers
into the West Indian Colonies, and a petition frogs 360
boatmen of the Trent and Mersey Canal Company, pray-
ing for a better observance of the Lord's Day.
Mr. GRIMSDITCII presented petitions from Led-
dington, and other places in Derbyshire, against the
_Bill
authorising- Canal Companies to become common carriers.
Mr. WILLIAM ROCHE presented a petition
from the medical practitioners of Limerick, praying
that remuneration might be awarded them for professional
attendance in Courts of Justice.
Mr. GREENE presented petitions from Bolton and
other places in Lancashire, against the power of the Poor-
law Commissioners to dissolve unions.
Mr. RALPH ORMSBY GORE presented a petition
From Carnarvon, on the subject of the Cheater end Holy-
head Railway, praying- that the Commissioners might be
ordered to make a further report upon the best line
of railway communication between London and Dublin.
The H in. Member gave notice that he should move, oa a
future occasion, that the petition be referred to a Select
Committee.
Mr. HURT presented a petition from Derby against
the Canal Companies Navigation Bill.
Mr. C. L USHINGTON presented a petition from
Astibertoe mmainst Church rates.
Mr. WA JCL E Y presented six petitions from Lincoln,
Stepney, and other paces against Mr. Sergeant Talfourd's
Copyright Bill; also a petition from the Commite.c of
the Working Men's Association of St. Andrew's, com-
plaining of the treatment of Mr. Feargus O'Connor, and
stating their opinion that there must have been something
wrong in that treatment, or the Government would not
have refused to lay the Report of Mr. Crawford before
the House; also a petition from a public meeting at Dun..
fermline, expressing their regret at the prosecutions
which had recently taken place flc political offences,
and praying the House to address her Majesty to
pardon all persons convicted of political offences.
The Hon. Member also presented several petitions from
medical practitioners in difLment parts of Cornwall, corn.
plaining of the laws with respect to the medical profes-
sion, and praying the House to adopt a speedy and effi-
cient remedy.. The Hen. Member also presented a peti-
tion from Nottingham, complaining of the treatment of
Mr. F. O'Connor, and praying for his liberation. The
Hon. Member also presented a similar petition frem
Rochdale.
Colonel SALWEY presented a petition from the
Union Gas Company of Ludlow against the rating of Stock
in Trade Bill.
Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition agreed to at a
public meeting in Belfast, on behalf of 500 Physicians and
Surgeons practising in the north of Ireland, complaining- of
the regulations of the Apothecaries Company of Dublin
The Hon. and Learned Member also presented a petition
from the victuallers of Dublin, stating that 70,000/ had
been levied on tea in the city of Dublin, in violation of the
articles of Union ; and gave notice that he should call the
attention of the House to the subject.
Mr. HODGES presented a petition from the Croydon
Railway Company against the Railways Bill.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON presented twenty petitions
from different parts of Ireland complaining of the natiouei
system of education established there.
Sir JAM ES GRAHAM presented a petition from the
Manchester and Leeds Railmay Company praying that
the House would not pals the Canal Carriage Bill, or that
if they did so they would impose upon canal proprietors
the same restrictions they did upon railways.
Colonel CONOLL Y presented a petition from Armagh,
complaining of the conduct of the Poor-law Commissioners
in Ireland.
Mr. MORRIS presented a petition from Carmarthen,
praying for the abolition of Church-rates.
Mr. HUME presented a petition from the House of
Assembly of Prince Edward's Wand, complaining of un-
equal taxation ; also I I petitions from Aylesbury, Middle-
sex, Wick, and other places, against Mr. Sergeant Tal-
fourd's Copyright Bill ; a petition signed by 896
inhabitants of St. Andrew's, praying for Universal
Suffrage, Vote by Ballot, and Annual Parliaments; and
another petition from the same place, complaining
of the manner in which persons confined for political of-
fences were treated. The Hon. Member also presented
a petition from Montrose praying the House to discharge
Frost, Jones, Williams, and all other political offenders.
The petitioners also prayed that the House would alter the
laws with respect to political offenders.
Sir G. CLERK presented petitions from different
parts of Scotland, in favour of the Church of Scotland Bill.
Mr. B. BARING presented a petition from Stafford-
shire against the navigation of canals and rivers on
Sundays.
Sir R. PEEL presented a petition from Southend,
Fifeshire, in favour of the Earl of Aberdeen's Bill for set-
tling the unhappy differences between the Ecclesiastical
and Civil Courts in Scotland; also a petition from clergy-
men residing at Malden, in Essex, praying for an altera-
tion in the Bill introduced for the exemption of stock in
trade for rating.
Mr. POULETT SCROPE presented petitions from
several Railway Companies against the Bill introduced for
the regulation of railways.
Mr. PUSEY presented a petition from Newbury,
praying for the abolition of the punishment of death.
Lord MORPETH presented a petition from Barnsley,
Halifax, Bradford, and other places in the West Riding of
Yorkshire, against Church-rates.
Mr. BLAKE presented a petition from Galway, for
an alteration of the system of education in Ireland.
Mr. LEADER presented petitions from Glasgow, in
favour of an extension of the Suffrage, and praying fur a
mitigation of the punishment of F. O'Connor.
Mr. BAINES presented a petition from the Hull and
Selby
Railway Company, against the Railways Bill.
Also a petition for the abolition of Church-rates.
NEW ZEALAND.
Lord ELIOT then rose to move for a Select Com-
mittee to inquire into the statements contained in the pe-
tition of the merchants, bankers, and ship-owners of the
City of London, respecting the colonization of New
Zealand. That petition, embodying as it did the opinions
and wishes of so large, respectable,land enlightened a body
of men, on a subject of such importance, appeared to hith
to to, the
..f It
11,2,2,,,54ry t',, hin, ex},atiat, tilat time thc
vantages of emigration. The principle of emigration had

EVENING ED. ON'.

he,cl so generally acknowledged that 'no would do no morb
than advert to it in passing. Mtetings had been held in g!'
most ail the large towns expressing the opinions of the, work-
inn men thaqit teas impossible for them to better their condi-
tion in this c-.)untrv, in eon.eqUenC3 of th 3 great. increase
of population, and the. exteneien of mechanical power and
ingenuity. He would advert very shortly to the principles
of emigration, so ably developed by Mr. Wakefield. The
experiment of emigration to colonic!: bad been tried with
success in respect to South Australia, and be wished that
the Noble Lord would wire measures for eaerying out that
system with regard to the enterprising colony of New
Zeelond.—(Heer, hear.) The evidence taken before the
Lords' Committee made it quite unnecessary for him to
dwell upon the advantages which New Zealand offered to
the settlers from this country. Ho would not say a word
about the fertility of its soil, the salubrity of its climate,
its navigable rivers, or the quantity of its timber—these
had been pointed out to the Committee of the House of
Lords that sat two years ago, The publication of that
Report h'd the effect of inducing a large number of pet'
sons to proceed to that colony. The only questions to
which he would venture to call the attention of the House
were, first, the right of this country to claim the
sovereignty of these islands, and, secondly, the best mode
of establishing a British Colony. He would not enter into
any historical detail of the means by which these islands
were first made known to the civilized world. He believed
there was no doubt that the Dutch navigator Tasman first
discovered them, but he never landed on their shores, and
it was reserved for Captain Cook to plant the flag of any
civilized State on the shores of New Zealand, Ile
believed Captain Cook took possession in the name of the
then Sovereign of England, King George the Third. He
believed, therefore, we were as much entitled to the pool,
ession of New Zealand as we were to a great portion or
our colonial empire, and if her Majesty's Government
thought fit to disclaim the sovereignty of Now Zealand,
they could have no claim whatever to any of the Austrae
lian Colonies. No doubt was expressed by the Secretary
for the Colonies as to the right of Great Britain to eolo-
nize New Zealand. In 1814 itbe then Governor of Nest
South Wales issued a commission to various individuals
residing in the islands, some of them natives and others
British settlers, to act as Magistrates or Justices. Other
commissions were issued and renewed in 1819, and there,
fore he was bound to suppose from the tacit permission 01
the Government at home, that they recognized the right of
the Colonial authorities to act in that way. In A
letter from Lord Glenelg, written in December 1837,
that Noble Lord took notice of the manner in which the
intercourse of the natives with foreigners was carried o°'
and recommended the adoption of sonic settled form
of Government. It was rather remarkable, that, not'
withstanding so strong an opinion, no steps were taken for
that purpose till 1839 ; and he rather thought the Noble
Lord opposite ( Lord Palmerston) had recognised the right
of the British Crown to colonise these islands. The ree
suit of the Noble Lorn's recent disclaimer had been to
call the attention of other Governments to the subject.
No man could value more than he did the alliance of Eng-
land and France, which he was sure was the best guarar
tee for the peace of the world. Yet it could not be de'
nied that there would always exist a groat jealousy be'
twoen the settlers of the two nations, when they colonisci
the same parts of the world—the colony which, ewill
to the conduct of the British Government, was now about
to proceed from France to the southern Island, which be
( Lord Eliot) was assured teas the private property of
British subject ; so that the Noble Lord at the head 0'
the Colonial Government, at the time when Captain
Hobson made his report, had himself to blame for the lose
of that possession to the British. The Noble Lord then
read, from the opinion of an American lawyer, a state'
ment of the law of nations, for the purpose of showing
that the first discovery gave a nation a right of settlement
and colonisation, in preference to all other nations. The
island of New Zealand was 800 miles long, by 300 broad
and the native population did not exceed one hundred
and fifty or one hundred and sixty thousand. He thought
it was therefore a region to which the doctrines of Al,
writers upon the right of civilized nations to settle and de
tablish colonies by purchase Atom the aborigines, especiallf
applied. There were abundant proofs of the ?resat
melancholy state of the colony. A large portion of the
population was composed of runaway convicts, and sail
who had deserted their ships. The population consisted;
therefore, altogether of bad men without restraint, and 01
good men without protection. It wes the duty of the
Noble Lord to take steps for the protection of the ant;
rigines against the injuries of the lawless settlers.
Noble Lord had said that he would not ratify any purr
chases of land which bad been made without the autllo'
rity of Captain Hobson. How could he refuse to ratify
d
any such purchases, at the same time that he declar
New Zealand to be an independent State ? Captain Hobson
had lately issued a commission to investigate the validiti,
of all titles to land. That Commission was composed of
members of the Legislative Couacil, who were themselves
the largest landholders in the colony ; and could they be
considered the fittest persons to decide upon their o°4
' titles and those of others ? As far as be was aware, no
principles had been laid down for the guidance of thej
Commission in any respect. There wets no test is'
down by which the validity of a title was to be deter'
mined. They were not properly instructed as to the
,
price of land.—( Hear, hear, hear.) F,ve
was declared by the Colonial Government, and Capts3
Hobson, to be the highest price per acre, But if that re
a proper price in New South Wales, it certainly was 0,6
et
sufficient for the cultivated land of New Zealand. rfe.
New Zealand Company had acted upon the princitnei
laid down by Mr. Wakefield, which could not be cart's"
out by selling land at a lower price than 11. an acre. Any
lower price would be insufficient either to prevent Ines
a
from purchasing more than they could cultivate, or to se%
out an adequate supply of labouring emigrants. Id* beec,
omitted to make any allusion to the correspondence of tug
Government with the New Zealand Company, because al
he wished for was a fair inquiry into the statements °
the petitioners, and the actual condition of the colon_B
ii
He did so without any angry or party feeling. He 11.
not canvassed for votes—( Hear, hear)—and although ",,
would not bring forward the motion without communicating
with his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Tamvrort7
he did not know what the vote of his Right Wl'
Friend would be. He believed that some legislative zres;
sure was necessary, and that the Noble Lord must very
soon conic to the House for assistance, and therefore u
asked for this inquiry to enable the House to legislate
wisely upon the subject.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL did net see the practical °I
of going into this question without the information
whic
must soon arrive. He was not apprehensive of inquiry ints
the conduct of the Colonial Office, for he thought the le
quiry would have the off.2et of removing misrepresentations
that had been made respecting that department. 11
Noble Lord had not made out any case for a Committee()
Inquiry, except that it might produce the materials oil
which legislation, at seine future time could be founder
To appoint such a Committee with a view to legislation in
a distant part of the world at this late period of the session
appeared to him to be a very wild species of inquiryl
(Hear, hear.) The expediency of establishing colonic
was admitted on all hands to be a question of policy for lb
consideration of the Government. When this question
was before a Committee of the House of Lords that Coln"
rnittee decided that the question was one which should re
left to the consideration of the Government alone, and
(Lord John Russell) did not see how a Committee of the"
House of Commons was to decide in what parts of thl
world colonies should be established.—(Hear heer''
With respect to what the Noble Lord had said in reference
to our right to New Zealand by discovery, be (Lord Job,
Russell) not only thought that other nations
might
dispute the claim, but as the claim had not only never
been set up since 1770, but had been absolutely disclaimed
in solemn declarations of the Legislature. It would be
necessary to find out a new tithe. In the Act of Perlis'
ment 4th George IV. it was set forth that " whereas Mtn;
ders were committed by British subjects in Otaheite,
Zealand, and (Auer places not in his Majesty's dolt
nions," Hear, hear.) After that it could not '7„
said that the title of this country to form a colony in Ile"
Zealand by pre-emption depended upon its right of disee;
very. There were many reasons why New Zealans'
should not he left a prey to the evils arising from the set'
tlement of runaway convicts and other lawless persons':
( Hear, bear)—and upon this arose the question how
War
a colony to bo established under the authority of the pr''
tish Crown. In the time of Lord Glenelg a propositi°
was laid before the Colonial Office for the formation of
Colonization Company, which, after every considerations
was rejected by Lord Glenelg. The same proposities
was submitted to Parliament, and the Bill was thrown out;
There were two ways in which (according to Vette!"
a colony might be established without infringing orin
the law of nations, or the rights of the aborigines. 'I"-
one was when the Government of any country chartered e
body of its subjects, and authorised them to form a colon'',
in which they themselves should settle, and cultivate the
lands, purchased, fairly and with free consent, from the
uncivilized natives, as was the case with William Penn'
The other was when a colony was sent out under the
authority of the Crown, and with a Government established
by the Crown, as was the case in North America. But
in neither of these ways was the colony proposed to be
formed in New Zealand.—( Hear, hear.) It was not to be
formed by a company of persons who were themselves t°
go oue and make purchases, and occupy and cultivate the
land ; but it was to be formed by a company having a high
large nominal capital, the shares not to be paid up, hut! large profit to be derived from selling parcels of lanu•
Now let the House only think what the Government would
have done if it had established such a plan._ t Hear.)
It would form a precedent by which, hereafter,_ ant
people in any country might say that they shoal'
make a profit by the sale of lands—(Hear,
in the territory of uncivilized nations in any part of the
world.—( Hear, hear.) It would establish a species of
land piracy all over the world.—(Hear, hear.) Subset
quently the Government sent a Consul to New Zealand
(which had been recognized as an independent State)
with authority to proceed in the manner described by Sint"
tell, to purchase lends from the natives of that country,
and to establish, the dominion of her Majesty there with
respect to the Commission for ascertaining titicg to land;
surely that was better than to leave the titles open to per-
petual litigation. The Noble Lord had objected to the
dependency of New South Wales. That arrangement
was necessary at present, and the Governor had given
military assistance to Captain Hobson to maintain his
authority, and the latter being now supported by that
force, and by the presence of one of her Majesty's shipa,
would be able to maintain his authority, and to enforce
the observance of just dealings with the natives. The
price of land in New Zealand would be raised to IL an
acre, when the land in the South Australian colonies
reached that price. On the whole, he did not see what
was to be gained by a Committee of the House of Com-
mons at this period of the Session, and in the absence of
information which might arrive before it had concluded its
deliberations, and might overthrow all its proceedings.
The whole matter should come before the Parliament next
St scion, and for all these considerations he opposed the
measure.
Mr. MA CK INNON said that the proper mode of
legislating on such a subject was by appointing a Com-
mittee, in the first instance. as was clone in the cese_of
I,IIA, Au,:i is i,Vt:I applied fur
Indeed, there were four of them—and he was one of that

EVENING EDITION

turnber—who refused to take any salary whatever. He
could not see any objection whatever to the appointment of
tie Committee moved by his Noble F,iond. The Noble
Lord oppoSite had stated no reason ehatever against it,
sod ho should ce.rdia'lv vote in favour of the motion.
Mr. WA RD woad also vote for the motion, and for
this reason, that he thought it Baas the duty of every man,
without refe, ence to party (fir this wee no party ques-
tion), who had thought on matters of colonization at all,
to force on the Government, by publicity if necessary, the
consciousness of the singular cernplioation of novelties,
absurdities, and contradictions in which they must become
invoived by adbering to the present system of regulating
these subjects,—( Hear, hear.) Nothing but an Act of
Parliament, laying down positive and simple principles,
could rescue them from the difficulties in which they had
been placed of late years by different Governments. Ile,
for one, would never cease forcing this subject upon the
attention of the Government, and he must say he thought
the New Zealand Company had been very badly treated
by the Colonial-office. The Noble Lord had thought
proper to state that the Company was formed of nothing
but land pirates, but he (Mr. Werd) wished to know what
was Captain Hobson himself? A land pirate on a grand
scale. lie hoped his Noble Friend opposite (Lord Eliot)
• would press his motion to a division, notwithstanding the
Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies had declared
Parliament would be obliged to legislate upon this subject
next Session. That Committee would be a very proper
preliminary to the legislation proelised by the Noble Lord.
Mr. VERNON SMITH thought the accusation of de-
lay made against his Noble Friend the Secretary for the
Colonies was not well founded, because it was the duty of
the Colonial-office to watch with care and caution every
proposition made relative to colonization. He thought it
was too much for the Noble Lord to call upon them to
found another colony on the system of the South Austra-
lian Colony before they had had sufficient experience to
be able to say whether that colony could be called a self-
supported colony or not ? As to the title of this country
to New Zealand, he would not enter into that question,
because he thought it had been sufficiently answered by his
Noble Friend, but he would observe that if the House
should appoint the Committee moved lot, fresh
undertakings might, even pending its inquiries,
be started from other countries, seeing as they
would that the question was not determined in
this country. But the Government could not be blame-
able for that—the blame would rest on those persons
who kept alive and promoted discussion upon the subject.
He could not see that any good would result from the
appointment of the Committee at so late a period of the
Session, and he hoped the House would reject the motion.
Before he sat down be begged to state that there had been
ito intention on the part of the Colonial-office to deal
harshly with the New Zealand Company. The Colonial-
office merely wished to show the Company with what
caution and circumspection they intended to act in a case
that required the utmost vigilance.—( Hear.)
Mr. HUME agreed that the Government could not act
with too much care in cases of this sort ; but he contended
the Government were bound to let the people know on
what they had to depend. He thought the Noble Lord
opposite, in bringing forward this motion, was only doing
an act of justice to the starving population of England,
and was only doing an act of justice to the Company, who
Cutne forward with large means to assist those who stood
in need of assistance, and to place them in a situation
in which they could exercise their labour with adeantage.
He cordially supported the motion of the Noble Lord, and
trusted it would be pressed to a division.
Mr. W. BARING supported the motion.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN thought no ground whatever
had been laid for :opposition to the motion. If the pro-
ceedings of the Government with respect to New Zealand
bad been uniform and consistent he should have thought
the Committee was unnecessary ; but he was of opinion
the intervention of Parliament was required on account of
the uncertainty in which the matter was left, and he
should therefore vote for the appointment of the Com-
mittee. Tne princip'e upon which title to land in New
Zealand was to be recognised ought to be determined
for the possession of land at present in New Zealand was
tiothing short of an absolute scramble. That question
ought to be determined without delay, and tho intentions
of the Government ought to be made known. Another
important question was whether New Zealand was to be a
dependency of New South \Vales? It was also a matter
of consideration whether it would be desirable, either in
the present or the next Session, to apply to Parliament
for an Act especially regulating all the affairs of New
Zealand ; but in the meantime the Committee that bad
been moved for might be appointed, and great benefit
might result from its labours.
Sir H. VERNEY said before the Committee was able
to report to that House, fresh information of a totally dif-
ferent character might be received from New Zealand,
and for these reasons he should vote against the motion.
It was acknowledged en an hands that at that late period
of the Session it would be impossible to legislate for the
colony, and therefore it appeared to him that the best
_thing :hat could be done would be to withdraw the mo-
tion for the present, and bring the question forward early
in the next Session,—( Hear. )
Lord SANDON wished to know what was to be the
extent of Captain Hobson's sovereignty—whether it was
to be limited to the inhabited parts of the colony, or
whether it would extend to the entire islands. He wished
also to know whether the Episcopal Church was to be
established under the authority of the Church of England
in New Zealand ?
Lord I RUSSELL said the Noble Lord must him-
self be aware how very difficult it was to lay down any
precise or definite rule with regard to a country at so
great a distance, and with regard to the inhabitants
of es hich their information was so scanty. Much must do-
Pend upon the circumstances that would arise. The direc-
tions given to Captain Hobson were to extend his juris-
diction in the first case over those parts of the colony in
which her Majesty's subjects had settled, and if in his in-
tercourse with the tative chiefs afterwards, he found that
they were willing to assent to a more extended sovereignty,
then he was authorised to carry these views into effect.
These matters were, as they must be, left very much to the
discretion of Captain Hobson. With regard to the second
question he should say that immediately after the settle-
ment of the colony he should think it most desirable that
the episcopal authority under the Church of England should
be established.
Lord ELIOT replied he thought the very contra-
dictory statements that had been made were the best peg-
/Able grounds for the appointment of a Committee. He
should certainly press his motion to a division.
Lord J. RUSSELL said his objection to the Corn-
Inittee had been that it could do no good, but if the Noble
Lord persevered in his motion he should not further
°Ppose it.—(Hear, beer.)
The motion was then agreed to.
CHURCH-RATES.
Mr. EA STHOPE could assure the House that he
addressed it with no inconsiderable embarrassment, as the
subject was one of considerable importance. He hoped
the question would at length come to be a party question,
and that it would be regarded as ono deeply affecting the
comforts, and the interests, and the happiness of the corn-
Inanity at large. His object, in bringing forward the
resent motion, was to exonerate Dissenters from the bur-
n_ of Church-rates ; and he proposed to move for leave
to bring in a Bill to exonerate Dissenters from their pay-
ment, and the mode in which he should carry that into
effect eat, that when the party was summoned for the
Payment. of Church-rates, he should make a solemn de-
claration that he was a Dissenter from the Established
Church, upon which he should be exempted. It might be
said that this would be a premium upon Dissent; but he
believed the more the question was examined, the less
foundation there would be found for it. He would
remind the House that in Lower Canada, in which
the established religion was Roman Catholic, a man
Pad only to come forward and declare that he be-
longed to the Episcopal Church, and his lands were ex-
empted from the payment of tithes, and he was not liable
Lo be assessed himself. He did not sec why the same
Pfinci de might not be applied to that country. It could
tot bi denied that Church rates were a heavy burden on
? consciences of the Dissenters. In the debate upon
ott-ch-rates in 1834, Lord Althorpe stated that the
!olplsa of Church-rates was a grievous and heavy burden
!Ise the Dissenters, and that the Legislature was bei'zd
to relieve them from their payment. Lord Stanley hi the
Bane- debate made the very same admission, that they were
sseious and substantial grievance. In a subsequent
debate, when a measure on the subject was introduced by
the present Lord Monteagle, the Attorney-General stated
that if there was a determined resistarne to their payment
the part of the Dissenters, lie did not think they could
enforocd. He would remind the House that originally
tithes were appropriated one-fourth to the clergy, one-four th
to the poor, one-fourth to the edifices, and one-fourth
to pilgrims and strangers. He felt satisfied that if all the
trOperty of the Church was properly managed it would
6e amply sufficient for all the purposes to which Church-
totes were now applied. It would also put an end to the
Unseemly and unholy warfare carried on, in which the
Church was too frequently a loser. In the town be had
tee honour to represent there were five parishes, in four of
which Church rates had been entirely overturned. 1.. was
the same case all over the country. He did not intend to
/nit up the case of John Thorogocd with the legislative
tooasure he proposed to introduce, although his name
*Quid be for ever connected with it as one of the victims
of Church rates. To show the interest which this ques-
tion had excited in the public mind, he would state that
Within a short period not fewer than 584 petitions had
been presented, praying fur the abolition of Church-rates,
and containing 67,000 signatures, while only two petitions
had been presented against their abolition, with 275 signa-
tures. He had that evening presented a petition from
Suffolk, signed by the rector, and clergyman, the magis-
trates, and mayor of the town, all of whom, although be-
'enaing to the Established Church, prayed for the aboli-
tion of Church-rates. He would remind the House of
the bitterness and animosities which had disgraced the
stanctuaries of their religion, and from which all parties
Shefioad retired with pain and regret. In Manchester and
in Nottingham, Wolverhampton, Bradford,
,`-rates
Birmingham, and otber large towns,
tee resistance to Church-rates had been eminently
successful, arid that resistance was now extending to the
villages and smaller towns. In fact, all who wished well
.to the Established Church must be anxious to see that
• '7%4pm. pun an cad to. He would not longer detain the
rtouse, but conclude by moving for leave to bring in a
„
to relieve the Dissenters from the Established
Church from the payment of Church-rates.
Mr. GIL LON rose to second the motion.—( Hear,
hear,) In doing so he believed he was acting on a feel-
-I,eg common to most of his countrymen. The people of
Scotland were not interested in a pecuniary point of
view in the question then before the House, but he was
Persuaded that there were still no Dissenters in this
"entry who felt a more ardent desire to relieve the
conscientious from the unjust burdens imposed on
them,,( Hear, hear.) The system of Church-rates was
ere which was not only cruel in itself, but which rc-
Reeted disgrace on the establishment which raised them.
The system only proved the spirit of usurpation which ani-
mated dominant Churches in all ages. Ho believed that
debit Thorogoed was not now in gaol because he had
refused, the payment of Church-rates, but because he bed
Sh, .
Lowe len see ce ne.
t" Bishop of London.—(Cries of Oh, oh," on the