The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-09 00:00:00

-
Mr. M. MILNRS said, that -if he might credit
any part of
Member "s.ne statement of the Honourable
,r Cork, that the House and the
sruntre
s did not generally and fully comps-hen:l
el take in view the state of Irish misery, he would find
It in the speech of the Right Hon. Bartonet, for valuanie
as some remarks had been, and true, and over true, as
many of his assertions in regard to the landlords n
Ireland had been, he could not think that the
Right Hon. Baronet fully comprehended what the
state of Ireland was, when he said that after
the remarks he had made he should not
wish to stint the Irish poor. This was no case of
stinting—it was a case of starving. There was no case
Whatever to compare chronic English distress with
Chronic Irish distress. It was a case in
'which the English Parliament and nation
had cause to intervene in one of the most singular calami-
ties that had ever befallen any country during the last three
Centuries, and for which it was in vain to draw arguments
sad conclusions from the ordinary course of measures.
1e might presume to speak of the state of the country
more readily than others, inasmuch as he had himself, with
his
own eyes, witnessed
it in certain parts of the country.
Ile said certain parts, because it should be borne in mind
that it was not spread over the whole surface of the
Country, bun confined to certain districts. The remedy-
!hereforn: should not be general in its nature, but partial
operation. He should therefore recommend the
most careful consideration with regard to the introduc-
tion of the English poor-law. Oa the right solution
of that question, the future prosperity or adversity of
the Irish people would depend. lie prayed them, then,
to consider that the present state of that coun-
try was one of a peculiar and pressing nature,
and it was required to be met by general
as well as local assistance. The Honourable
and Learned Gentleman said that it could not be
doubted but twenty-five per cent. of the population Were
being swept away by famine and pestilnice. Now he
did not wish to make a comparison of things
that could not be compared, but if a pauper
died of starvation in the streets of London, the
Public press would take the matter up—leading articles
Would be written upon it, and the case would be put
forth in the strongest manner to excite public sympathy,
and awaken public horror. Why then, he would ask,
Was such indifference exhibited, when they were
dying by thousands across the Channel ? Was it
because Skibbereen was 200 miles to the west of
London ? Why should there be one sympathy for
Skibbereen and another for London. Such a feeling
would not be exhibited by the capitals of Germany or
Prance to any part of the empire, however ex-
treme, that might be visited by a similar calamity.
'lO objected to having those exceptional cases brought
forward upon such occasions as the present. Hon.
Members might speak of workhouses, for the support of
which no rates were paid—they were only the excep-
tion. Let the House look to the number of
workhouses which were literally groaning beneath
their load of misery and pestilence.—(Hear, hear.)
It was not decent that those exceptional cases should
be brought forward—great miseries and sufferings were
always sacred in the eyes of honourable men.—Hear,
hear.) It was not fair to treat the people of
Ireland in the manner they had been treated
by the Honourable Member fur Bath.—(Hear, hear.)
lie thought that every moment of delay
in passing these relief Bills, was an injury inflicted on
the people of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He felt assured.
that in expressing his sy rnpathy with the people of Ire-
land he was only giving expression to the feelings which
glowed in and warmed the heart of every person in Eng-
land.--( Hear, hear.)
Mr. P. SCROPE perfectly agreed with the opinions
eXpressed by the Hon. Member for Marylebone, and he
thought that ;he people of England would not be satis-
fied with tae measure's about to be proposed for the
relief, unless they had ample security that, for
!be future, the property of Ireland should
ba made to maintain the poverty of Ireland.
The rental of Ireland, according to Mr. Griffiths, was
stated at 15,000,000/, and it was well known that the
assured sum was upwards of 30,000,0001. The exports
from Ireland were upwards of 7,000,0001. It
Was well known that the resources of Ireland were
enormous, and at a time when Parliament was
making these large's:es to the people of that country it
was necessary to devise some means by which the pro-
perty of Ireland shoal be made responsible for the
maintenance of its own poor; and he must say that if
the Hon, and Learned Member for Cork during the last
ten :Jr fifteen years had been endeavouring to render
tie gentlemen of that country sensible of their duties
ws landlords, he would have been doing much
More good than he had ever effected by laying before
them the magnificent results that were to follow the
repeal of the union. He remembered hearing that
Honourable Gentleman assert, ten years ago,
that he was standing in the gap to pre-
vent a heavy poor-law being imposed on the
people of Ireland by the jealousy of England; and he
(Mr. P. Scrope) thought that in this session, even in
this temporary measure, some means ought to be
adopted for compelling the owners of Irish property to
maintain their own poor for the future.
Lord DUNCAN said that he wished to state that in-
dividually he had a great admiration for the Irish land-
lords. Ile believed that many of them were anxious
to do their duty—hut he had been requested by
the first magistrate of the city which he had
the honour to represent to state that many of his con-
stituents were in the last stages of distress, but that they
were willing to do their duty, and that none of their
countrymeit should die of starvation at their own doors.
1-le trusted that some Irish Gentleman would be
able to get up and deny the statements in the
book which had been quoted, for they were really
awful. In the Castlebar union, it is stated by the
doctor that the sick iu the hospital did not get the diet
prescribed for them on the 27th of December last,
neither did they get it on the 28th, 29th, 30th, or 31st.
lie trusted they had come forward, as they ought to
hove done, in the case of those northern parts of
the country to which his attention had been directed;
and he trusted the Irish Members would second their
efforts. lie was sure, if they did, although the constitu-
ency which he represented paid many taxes from which
the Irish were exempt, they would willingly come for-
ward, as far as they were able to assist.
Major MACNAMARA denied the correctness of the
statement made by Captain Wynne in his letters in regard
to the non-payment of the rates in the county of Clare.
Mr. 13. OSBORNE said he had no wish to protract
this debate, but he must say a few words before it
closed. He did feel surprised that Hon. Gentlemen
connected with land in Ireland had not thought proper
on that occasion to say something in reply to the few
words dropped by the Hon. Member for Mallow.
He had no disposition to interfere with the Hon. Mem-
ber for Scrope—(Laughter)—he meant the Hon. Member
for Stroud. But, without saying whether the poor-law
was good or bad, he (Mr. B. Osborne) did not think
he was justified in bringing on a discussion on that ques-
tion on subjects that had little or no connexion with it.
But when the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for
Marylebone, lectured the landlords of Ireland on their
duties, and paraded the case of the Castlebar union,
which was the stock in trade of orators of his
description—(Laughter)—as the Keighley Union was of
another gentleman. He was surprised that the land-
lords of Ireland, who, he regretted to say, were
not represented in that House—(Laughter)—did
not get up in their place and tell him that his
inferences were erroneous, and that they did their duty.
He fearlessly said that the case of the Castlebar Union
was not the rule in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He could
tell him, in several of the unions where there were work-
houses built to contain only 600 individuals, there were
at present 2,000 inmates.—(Hear hear.) He did not
concur in the aspersions cast upon Lord Lucan, and
others. The report of Mr. Otway, the Assistant Poor
law Commissioner, had been quoted, but he would ask
the Right Hon. Gentleman, did he know that the Noble
Lord wrote a letter exonerating himself from any blame.
In that letter he said that he was not prepared to contra.
diet the statement.—(lronical cheers.) He (Mr.
Osborne) was not personally acquainted with the
Noble Lord, but he understood that he kept
the house open at his own expense for a
period of three months.—Cheers.) Nay, more, Lord
Sligo had acted in a similar manner with regard to
Westport. Well, then, it came to this. Ballina, Bal-
linrobe, and Castlebar, were exceptions, but he said they
were exceptions, and not the rule. Much had been said
about the neglect of the landlords of Ireland, but he
would ask on whom did the fault rest in the first in-
/stance. They bad themselves to blame for they had
been always in the habit of legislating for Ireland, as if
it was a colony of England.—(Hear, and sheers.)
He repeated it, the Government were legislating for a
colony. If the legislation had been conducted in a
different spirit, Ireland would not have been in the state
it is at present.
Mr. HASTIE hoped that it would never be said of
him that he had stated in private what he feared
to state in public. What he had stated
to the House, he had stated on the authority
of the reports presented to Parliament, and delivered
to each Member, every Honourable Member could
see for himself, by reading those reports, that the
Irish landlords had not as a body done
their duty. The Irish landlords, the lessees,
the middlemen and the farmers should, when they knew
of the failure of the potato crop, have formed them-
selves into committees for the purpose of averting the
total amount of the failure, and giving accurate in
formation to the Government upon the subject.
Everything was to be found by English money. The duty
of this supervisor was to ascertain what was the usual
quantity of potatoes grown in each parish, and what was
the failure of the crop. What was the quantity of oats
in each parish, and having ascertained that they ought
to have made reports to her Majesty's Government and to
this House. If the property of Ireland were to be assessed
to the poor-rate in an equal degree with that of Eng-
land, 1,500,0001. to 1,800,000/. a-year would be required
from the Irish landlords. In Ireland, the gross rental
from land was known to be upwards of 15,000,0001. a
year. The usual assessment on land in England was
ten per cent, and it was not until the Irish landlords had
borne ta berden equal to that that they could be in a
position to come to the people of this country and ask
for relief. But when that was done, then he was quite
sure that no man would refuse to bear his share in ren-
dering all the assistance he could.
Sir D. NORREYS said that Sir W. Beecher, who had
formerly bad a seat in that house, had been made a district
surveyor, about six weeks or two months ago, and he thought
that such charges as those of the Right Hun. Baronet should
have been restrained until his report of the districts was made,
The Hon Baronet had not made his charges fairly, for before
he made them he ought to have inquired how far his state.
.ts were justified by the condition of the whole of the
hundred and thirty-six districts in Ireland, and whether nine
out of ten of the several workhouses were not perfectly lull.
The country gentlemen, in many instances, had been willing
to extend the poor-law, when the Poor law Commissioners
rteapee ant lireventeo them. He did not mean to be
rli the Iris!? Lonsidiaina they
heats-
than under the circumstances might have been expected. The