The Sun.
London, England, 1847-12-08 00:00:00

WEDNESDAY EVENING, DECEMBER 8, 1847.

, 1545, had only been 7,500,0001., while the total re- 1 the Poor-law Commissioners during the present
mitted from the _Leese Exchequer to the r,,-Iti,s; 1,1 mentla l' ;sr-Teen:a tlest tei the 4th tf..' last July there
\ been 26,700,0001., being a: balance of 19,200,000/. were 2,600,000 paupers receiving rations.
in favour of Ireland, or, adding the remittances since An HON. MEMBER asked, what was the amount of
1845, a total excess of remittances from Ireland of the poor-rate ?
19,789,5911. Such were his general views of what 1 Mr. REYNOLDS —That was a very proper
i England owed to Ireland in regard to money matters, i uestion, but one which lie was unable to answer.—
and when the question came before the House in a Laughter.) The amount varied greatly in different
fairer and more legitimate manner he should be pre- istricts ; but in the county of Mayo the entire
pared to develop his argument at greater length. He rental would not afford 1/. per annum for the pauper
had, in drawing to a conclusion, to notice the last part population. The aggregate number of persons re-
of the Hon. Gentleman's motion, viz., the effect of the ceiving rations in Leinster, Munster, Connaught,
union upon the poorer classes in Ireland, a subject which, and Ulster, was as follows :—Able-bodied men,
as the Hon. Member had well stated, deserved the at- 163,463 ; women, 104,160 ; families, 574,983 ; total,
tention of the House. In consequence of the poverty 842,606. How was it possible, when such was the
of Ireland, and the superior wealth of this country, state of things, that the poor of Ireland could be sup-
there was a constant immigration of paupers into ported by means of rates? In principle he admitted that
England. This was one of the evils which the union the property of Ireland should be made to support its
had brought upon them. The poor-rates of this poverty; and he was glad that the blister, at least,
country were enormous, in consequence of this immi- had been put upon the backs of the landlords.—
gration—the people were impoverished by the num- (Hear, hear.) He had no wish to say much on the
ber of paupers who came among them, and the exist- immediate subject of the motion—the repeal of the
ing distress in Ireland had greatly aggravated the union—knowing that if he did so his words
evil. He would be content to be covered with shame would only be received as a " thrice told
and ridicule if his prediction was not realised—that tale." The question appeared to him to be
the consequence of the Irish poor-law—in which simply one of pounds, shillings, and pence.—
many Hon. Members gloried as providing a remedy (Hear, hear.) He believed that the effect of the union
for the pauperism of Ireland—would be that it would had been to impoverish Ireland without enriching
stimulate the immigration of paupers into this coun- England ; and that the interests of both countries
try. He maintained that the poor would find were involved in the consideration of the question.—
their way into this country as surely as water found (Rear.) Formerly, gentlemen who supported repeal
its level. The effect of the poor-law would be to break were charged with something like sedition. The
down the classes upon whom the poor-rate fell, and case, however, was materially altered.—(Hear, hear.)
add them to the general mass of paupers. He did not He knew Ireland well, had been accustomed to travel
speak of the present distress ; he spoke of what through it by day and night, and he had found that
would be found to be the permanent effect of the every class, from the peer to the peasant, felt that
poor-law, which they thought was to take Ireland off they wanted something.—(Laughter.) He under-
their shoulders. The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir G. stood that cheer, and after the tiresome debates which
Grey), in his brief answer to the speech of the Hon, they had had for the last three or four nights, he re-
Member for Nottingham, had alluded to the repeal joiced to hear it. A laugh put the House in a better
debate in 1834. Since that debate had been alluded temper, and rendered Hon. Members more capable of
to, he (Mr. O'Connell) would take the liberty of re- discussing the question.—(Laughter.) Now, fore
minding the House of the promise then solemnly merly it was said that the Roman Catholics alone
made by one of the largest majorities on record in were in favour of the repeal of the union. Protes-
rejecting a motion which was supported by forty testants, however, were now beginning to fold their
Members identified with the Irish people—a promise arms, and ask themselves in sober earnestness,
which obtained the sanction of the House of Lords, " What benefit have we derived from this union ? It
and the concurrence of the Sovereign then on the has diminished our bench of bishops, and substituted
throne, and which was, therefore, a pledge from the a rent-charge for tithes; it may soon go fur-
three estates of the realm, viz., that in expressing they." The repeal of tithe union was, in fact,
their resolution to maintain the legislative union in- no longer a sectarian question ; some of the
violate they were determined to "persevere in ap- staunchest supporters of Protestantism were also sup-
plying their best attention to the removal of porters of repeal, whilst some of its strongest oppo-
all just causes of complaint, and to the promotion of nents were Roman Catholic Membera,representisag Irish
all well-considered measures of improvement." Had constituencies.—(Hear, hear.) In the city of Dublin
that promise been carried out ?—(Hear, hear.) there was a general feeling that the only chance for
Where had been the removal of grievances ? Were the inhabitants lay in the restoration of their Parlia-
not the people of Ireland at that moment crying out ment; almost to a man, the people were favourable
for relief, and could not obtain it ? Did not the to that measure. They felt that the question had
Government confess that the landlord and tenant never yet received fair consideration in that House,
question constituted a serious grievance, mind did not but they thought that it was now likely to do so on
that grievance still remain unredressed, the Govern- account of the comparative absence of party in the
ment having put it off from time to time in conse- new Parliament. He believed that the strength and
quence of the difficulties with which it was sur- stability of the empire were involved in the question
rounded ? Thirteen years had elapsed since the pro- of the repeal of the union ; nor ought the people of
raise was made which he had just quoted, and their Ireland themselves to be thrown overboard in the
grievances were still unredressed. Nay, more, the consideration of that question, forming as they did a
promise had not merely been unfulfilled, it had been third of the population of the United Kingdom, vs hile
actually violated. They had had coercion Acts imposed their country bore an equal proportion in point of
upon them in place of obtaining a removal of geographical extent.—(Bear.) The majority of the
grievances ; they had had a scanty and crippled Mu- Members of that House were no doubt desirous to
nicipal Reform Bill thrust upon them, their elective ameliorate the condition of the Irish nation, but un-
franchise unjustly limited, and which was declining fortunately they did not know how to do that. It
every day, and yet no hand was raised to remedy had been the misfortune of Ireland, almost from time
it. There were a thousand other grievances which immemorial, to be quacked. It was time that
had never been touched. He did not mean to taunt quackery should be brought to an end. Ever since
the House with this ; he merely wished to remind the Act of Union Ireland had been getting worse
them at the beginning of a new Parliament, when and worse, until at last she was nothing better than a
they were starting under fairer auspices than usual, great ruendicity institution; her pauperism being t o
of the solemn pledge and covenant which had been extensive that it visited almost every nation on the
made to Ireland—a pledge which had been ratified earth. Let Honourable Members read the accounts
by the House of Peers and the Throne, and which, of the arrival of emigrants at New York and at
therefore, ought to be as binding as a legislative Act; Canada, wafting pestilence and famine across the
and he desired to conjure the House to consider the Atlantic, and involving even the Americans in an
necessity of granting them at last a full, entire, and enormous loss of life.--Hear, hear.) He would not
ample redress of those grievances which they were weary the House by bringing forward figures : in
pledged to remove.—(Hear, hear) For himself, he that aspect the question had already been sufficiently
believed that the repeal of the union would prove the discus4ed. He would only say, that no harm could
only real benefit to his country. The great and possibly arise from inquiry, and, whatever might be
wasting evil of Ireland was the draining of money the fate of this motion, he hoped some Hon. Member
out of her ; and he saw no means of restoring this would test the House, by bringing forward a Bill for
vital necessary except by the re-establishment of a the express purpose of repealing the union.
domestic legislature. A tax on absenteeism, which Dr. BOWRING said he had intended to speak
some looked to as a remedy, was a forced and unna- upon the question before the House, not because it
tural expedient though he admitted that occa- . was important in itself, but because it had become 90
sionally it might be necessary to have recourse to on account of a growing feeling in this country in
artificial remedies for artificial evils ; but in this case reference to it ; but, as he had gathered from various
he would give the means of inducing absentees to indications that it was the wish of the House that
return home without any such interference. A native there should be no delay in proceeding with another
Parliament would bring them back again. It would question of paramount importance, he should, on that
be their interest to return and watch the progress of occasion, abstain from making any remarks.—(Hear,
legislation and its effects upon life and property.— hear," and cries of " Divide, divide.")
(Hear, hear.) A domestic legislature therefore would Mr. E. B. ROCHE said that, representing so large
supply the landlords with a direct self-interest in ro- a constituency, he could not give a silent vote. The
maining at heme, it would stop the drain of money grounds upon which he advocated repeal were two in
out of Ireland and lead to its being spent in that number. The first was an historical one. It was an
country, it would revive trade and commerce, it historical fact that the Imperial Legislature had
w mild enable the people of Ireland to do better, be- always misgoverned Ireland, even when the attempt
cause richer customers to England, and in this way had been made to govern the country properly, prac-
would benefit both countries—for he could not sup- tically it had failed for want of acquaintance with the
pose such a solecism in the providence of God as the people. For forty-seven years Parliament had had
prosperity of the one country hurting that of the unchecked control over the destinies of Ireland, and
other—it would make the empire prosperous and the results were poverty and discontent in every shape.
happy at home and strong and irresistible in its Those English Members who assumed to govern Ire-
power abroad.—(Hear, bear.) land, but would not permit them to debate her
Mr. TREL AWNY, who was but indistinctly grievances, might depend upon it that they would not
heard, said that the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat carry things their own way. Two parties could play
down told them that there was a great deal owing at the game of obstruction. They were now in a
from this country to Ireland. He believed that was time of peace and a time of prosperity, but the time
the case, and that the income-tax and the assessed might come when the services of the people of Ire-
taxes ought to be extended to that country. He land would be wanted, and then it would be their
hoped the House would not be induced by the con- time to turn round and say, "fight your own battles."
stant howl of the Irish Members to delay passing the lie (Mr. Roche) should be sorry if that state of
measure which had been proposed by her Majesty's things should occur, but as an honest man he was
. come
finde
Government for the purpose of checking crime in bound to say, that if they
m when, instead of
friend, refused to redress Ireland's
Ireland. He thought that if the repeal of the union grievances, the
daymight her an open and
were granted it would produce a civil war between finding her a they might
the Protestants of the north and the Roman Catho- declared enemy.
lies, and that this would lead to a military despotism. Major BLACKALL said if this motion had been
The Hon. Gentleman would propose a tax on the ab- brought forward under other circumstances he might
which it
sentees. That class of persons would then be have been disposed to vote for it. But he was bound to
placed in this position, that if they lived consider the circumstances under wasbrought
in Ireland they would be shot at, and if forward. He had no faith in theand
patriotismcid of the
they remained among us they would be taxed. lion. Member for Nottingham,ha beenadhe not think
The Hon. Gentleman asked the people of Eng- his conduct in that House . calculated. very
land to contribute more money for the relief of the greatly to add lustre to the
.Irish.name. But, indeed,
people of Ireland ; but he did not think John Bull if there were no other considerations, the course pur-
would consent to that, seeing that the Hon. Member sued by the Hon. Member in resisting the very mo-
had disallowed the debt which had been already in- de-rate request of the Home Secretary to postpone his
curred. He did not see how Ireland was to be motion would alone have induced him (Major.
improved, excepting by introducing machinery ~fer Blacken) to oppose it. The Government 'night fairly
the purpose of cultivation and economising labour ; take his own and other, Members votes that night as
and this could not be done while the land was so indications of whether or not they were prepared to
much subdivided and a pauper population suffered to give the Government a factious opposition.—(Hear,
look to the potato as their sole means of support. hear.) For his own part, he must candidly say that
He highly approved of the coercion Bill, and he thought some measure of coercion necessary at
sincerely regretted that he opposed the coercion Bill the present time in Ireland. The conduct of the
of 1846. It was a mockery of and satire on Irish landlords during the past year had, in his opi-
legislation to allow things to proceed as they did nion, been such as ought to have saved them from
in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He was surprised that any reprobation.
lion. Gentlemen should interpose delays to the Mr. M. O'CONNELL thought the arguments of
passing of a measure which they must be aware the Hon. Member ought to be conclusive in favour of
was absolutely necessary. If those Members were the present motion. They were to judge men by.
likely to be successful in delaying the mea- their actions, and by what they did on the floor of
sure, the Government ought to act without the that House—(lronical cheers)—and when they find
Bill, and then call for a Bill of indemnity. He an advocate in the Hon. Member for Nottingham, he
hoped that the Government would enforce the poor- felt bound to accept his measures, in preference to
law measure, and see that every farthing of the rates those of a Government who offered them a coercion
was paid. Unless they showed vigour and decision, Bill instead of repeal. The Hon. Member for Tavi-
the murders which were taking place in Ireland would stock, who had spoken that night, knew evidently
not cease. infinitely more about Queen Pomare and her wrongs
Mr. O'FLAHERTY said, the Hon. Gentleman than about Ireland and the sores that were rankling in
who had just sat down was evidently totally unac- the heart of the people of that country. Was Ireland
quainted with the subject under discussion. No to submit to a course of legislation from persons so
Member was more anxious than he (Mr. O'Flaherty) ignorant as the lion. Member ? There was the Hon. 1
to put a stop to those atrocious crimes which dis- Member for Bolton (Dr.Bowring). Heknew something
graced Ireland ; but he believed the ordinary law, if —at least he thought he did—of every country in the
carried out with vigour and impartiality, would world; but of Irelandhe knewsolittle that he could not
prove quite sufficient for the suppression of those out- summon up courage enough to descant upon her
rages. He was an active administrator of that law; grievances. He (Mr. O'Connell) remembered when
but, under present circumstances, he believed it was the first Coercion Bill was passed. It was the first
nothing less than a confiscation of property without Irish measure after the Reform Act. He denounced
any countervailing advantages. It might eventually it as an omen of the worst character that the Whigs
be productive of good ; but, circumstanced as Ireland should commence the first session of a new Perna-
wee just now, it was a most preposterous remedy. ment with a measure of coercion for Ireland, and
Mr. REYNOLDS thought that the 'restoration of cautioned the Government to bear in mind that it was
the rights of self legislation to the Irish people attempted coercion for Ireland that had turned out
would improve eheir condition, both socially and mo - the Grey Administration. It was contemptuously
rally • and, believing that, he could not but regret said that the country was weary of this constant Irishthat ;he lion. Member for Nottingham introduced howl. Let the Government and their supporters take
the subject at so inappropriate a period. He should, care that they did not convert this howl into a war-
however, support the motion for a Committee of in- cry.—(Oh, oh.) At a moment when peace on the
quiry, because on so important a subject, he thought continent hung on the merest thread it behoved the
that was the reasonable mode of proceeding. He Government of this country to consolidate its internal
heard the speech of the Honourable Meni- strength by the most amicable relations with every
her for Tavistock (Mr. Trelawney) with sur- portion of the empire, and not to irritate an important
prise, and he could not but think that it member of the State by measures of coercion.
had been prepared to be delivered on the coercion Mr. FAGAN denied that any measure of coercion

Bnoillodpepboartten,
nair.:yd tohfa t
dt he
lei
vlelroinn.KG ei
tn tloeoriiatiliitii a
o;cirii,a;s
il
o;
sought to dovetail it into the present discussion.—
(Laughter.) He thought the Hon. Gentleman's
attempt to do so was most unfortunate.—(Hear'
hear.) The Hon. Gentleman said that Ireland was
not sufficiently taxed, but he was at a loss to know
how the lion. Gentleman could justify that assertion,
bearing in mind that the landed property of Ireland
was rated at 13,187,000/., and that it had to bear
exclusively an enormous amount of taxation, which
had been immensely increased by the introduction of
the poor-law. Ile was acquainted with an estate of
S,OOO/. a year, of which 6,0001. was eaten up by in-
cumbrances and mortgages ; and was it fair to ask the
man who had only 2,000/. to pay poor taxes on the
whole amount ?—(Hear, hear.) He was in favour of
the poor-law, but he believed it was susceptible of
much improvement in its details. The Hon. Gentle-
man seemed to think, that if the people were ejected,
they had an alternative in the poor-law. He (Mr.
Reynolds) would be able to prove that in certain
districts the poor-rate was not sufficient to meet the
poverty of those districts. From a return mad. by

was necessary. As to the question of repeal, he con
tended that it ought to be fairly and fully discussed,
since fully seven out of the nine millions of the Irish
population were deeply interested in the subject. For
himself, while he wholly deprecated a national sever-
ance of Ireland from England, he considered that a
repeal of the Act of Union would be beneficial to both
countries, for the interests of England were inti-
mately connected with the prosperity of Ireland.
As far as the connexion between the countries being
affected by the repeal of the union, he thought that
that was merely a bugbear raised up by those who
were inimical to the prosperity of both.—("Question,"
" Divide.") He complained of the way in which the
affairs of Ireland were conducted in a British House
of Commons, many important Bills being passed
at the close of the session after the great majority of
Irish Members had left town. For this, the only re-
medy was a domestic Parliament, and he trusted that
in time that proposition would receive the attention of
the House.—(The Hon. Member frequently referred
to some notes he held in his hand, and was as con-
stantly interrupted by "Read, read," and loud laugh-
ter.) lie would not be put down by clamour, but if