The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-27 00:00:00

TIE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENINa, APRIL 27', 1847.

committee consisting of the names of Hudson, Wynn, and a
gentleman residing at Boulogne, and supposed the two former
names to have keen withdrawn. Not one of the director,
had bound himself to pay anything; they should have been
bound in the same way as others. The Learned Counsel
cited the case of " Boacfi v. White," to show that the allot-
ment of the shares was part of the conAderation. In con-
sequence of the non-allotment of the whole number of shares,
the defendant was called upon to pay 1-36WOth instead of
I-40,000th part of the whole. As soon as the committee
Allotted the shares, they passed a resolution that, if the par-
ties would pay 3s. per ►hare, they should be released from
further liability. He would ask who was liable to the de
fendant ? The provisional committee or the committee o:
management? The committee waited till the panic came,
and then allotted the shares.
Lord Dr.Nu.szs said, the Court would consider their judg-
ment.

years of age when they retired, and it was well known
that they left the service upon the large pension, while
still perfectly capable of doing further duty. There
was also a great abuse in another regulation rhi had
the payment. of . the pen.
a certain perod incapable
of doing further duty, and were discharged from the
I:ieoerni
o introducedsoldiers
whosi since,
er namely,ea
fter
ranks. The consequence of that was, that a man who
had ruined his constitution by the practice of drinking.
ardent spirits passed the Chelsea. Board, and obtained
his discharge and pension, while those men who
had conducted themselves well, and were fit for further
service were retained. In order to obviate such abuses
it was proposed that the men in the ranks should re
~eive a trifling increase of pay for good conduct. The
amount of the increased payment was unJer certain cir•
eum.stances to be added to their pension, and that in-
creased payment would bo regulated in amount accord-
ing to the period of service. Ile had now touched upon
all the principal heads of this measure. It was one
which from its complexity and importance demanded
their Lordships most serious attention and considera-
tion. lie left it in their hands, at the same time thank-
ng them for the kind indulgence he had received.
Viscount COM BERMERE thought that this measure
would not improve thecondition of the army, and in this opL
oion he was borne out by the best: authorities upon the subject
they could not get a better class of men than those they had
now in the service. He denied that they could get a better
class, but assuming that they did,how long would it take to bring
them into a state of discipline, and having at last brought them
into that state how long would they be required to remain in
:he army afterwards? It would be an impossibility to retain
those troops who were stationed in the colonies in the efficient
d ate they were in at preseut, under the operation of the new.
system. They had 128 regiments in all, and of those 7'3 were
on foreign service. Why there were no less than 6,000 men
4eing out and returning annually from these foreign possessions
He took an intense interest in the welf ,re of the army, and it
was because he did so that he had felt called upon to trouble
their Lordships at so much length in opposition to the Bill.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said, the NoLle Lord, who
had just sat down, need not have apologised to their Lordships
tor detaining them so long, for no Member of that House was
more capable of speaking on this subject than himself. Still,
however, he thought the Noble Marquis was wrong in the
opinion he had formed on this Bill. Ile should be the last
Irian to support it if he felt that it would lead to a diminution
of the old soldiers of the army, but he was convinced that the
Bill would produce no such result. No army could exist with-
out a sufficient number of old soldiers. In time of peace and
war the efficiency of the service must be kept up, and that
could not be done without the army was well supplied
with old soldiers. When any dangerous operations were to
be performed, the old soldier was always the first to
set an example of bravery. The old soldiers of this country
were its safeguard, and if their Lordships passed any measure
that was calculated unnecessarily to reduce their number, they
virtually struck a blow at the defences of the nation. In all
parts of Europe, in the Peninsular, in North and South Ame-
rica,in Africa, and in China, the armies of this country had
accomplished great achievements, and how, let him ask their
Lordships, were those achievements won ? Why, through the
instrumentality of the old soldier. lie could not instance a
better guidance of the high value of the old soldier
than by reminding their Lordshps of the esteem
in
.which he was held by Napoleon, and well
he might, for through his instrumentality Napoleon
won some of his greatest victories. The old soldiers were there-
fore the ablest defenders of their country, and nothing ought
to be done which could tend to reduce their number. Now, at
was his opinion that this Bill would not have such an effect,
and he would tell their Lordships why he thought so. Their
Lordships must be aware that enlistment for a limited period
had long existed in the army to a small extent, and although
it had failed when carried out more extensively, it had suc-
ceeded in that limited form. This Bill, however, held out
many inducements for good condnct, and he was strongly im-
ith a conviction that these inducements would lead
pressed w
to a re-enlistment of the soldier at the expiration of the ten
years. lie was, therefore, disposed to try the experiment
of limited enlistment again, and he entertained the
liveliest hopes for its success. At the end of the
ten years, their Lordships would perceive by the
Bill that the soldier who had behaved himself during that
term of servitude would be entitled to an additional pay of 4d.
per day. and looking to the other inducements of pension and
promotion that the Bill held out, he must repeat his decided
opinion that the soldier would become so comfortable in his
situation, and so attached to the profession that he would be
certain to re-enlist. Of course his only anxiety was to secure
the efficiency of the public service, and be supported this Bill
because he thought it was calculated to ensure that object.
lie entreated their Lordships, therefore, to adopt It. For his
own part he would do his best to carry it out. No doubt it
would involve the country in some slight additional expense,
but the condition of the soldier could not be improved without
that risk. With regard to the Bill. relating to the pensioner,
he thought that measure was necessary, but the pensioner to
whom Government ought to pay the most attention,
were the vetran soldiers—those brave men who were the heart
and soul and spirit of the regiment. What he wanted to see
was good conduct prevail in the army, and to see them treated
with good treatment and justice. He believed that those effects
could be produced, and he believed that a system like that pro-
posed by the Government, would have a greater effect in pro.
ducing this good conduct, than any other course which could
be adopted. He believed that this measure would not
.have the
effect apprehended by his Noble Friend, and that it would
not remove the old soldiers from the regiment. He entreated
their Lordships to adopt the measure.—(Hear, hear. )
The Duke of RICHMOND gave the Government the
fullest credit for good actions with respect to the army, but he
looked with extreme suspicion on the measure before their
Lordships. He considered that great evils would result to the
army from this measure. Its effects would be most injurious
on that part of the army which might be required for service
on the coast of Africa, or other unhealthy places. His Noble
Friend had stated that great improvements had taken place in
the morals and conditions of the army in general. Why then
in the name of Heaven, did they not leave well alone, and not
attempt to introduce any new and hazardous experiment?
This improvement had taken place in the army during a period
of unlimited enlistment; why, then, did the Government wish
to introduce any new system? He thought that it would be
much better if the Government had made the period of en-
listment for the tirat for a term of fourteen years, and at the
expiration of that time gave the soldier an opportunity of re-
enhstment for a period of seven years more. lie thought that
the better way to improve the condition of the army would be,
to increase the pensions to the soldiers. The principle upon
which these pensions were bestowed were absurd and impolitic.
It might be said that this
would entail very great expense on
the country; the more expensive, however, war was made the
better he liked it, for it would prevent the na.ion
going to war upon such slight pretences as they were
used to do. He felt the greatest interest in the condi-
tion of the private soldier and the non-commissioned officer,
The infantry, the cavalry, and the ordnance of this country
were the best in the world. The Bight lion, the Secretary
at 14 ar had most injudiciously and incorrectly stated that the
army was at present in a state of slavery, in consequence of
their having enlisted under the present mode. He totally
denied that assertion. They might depend upon it, that if they
should open those advantages to the soldier, they would not in:.
duce him to get rid of the only failing the British soldier had to
combat with. He would not trouble their Lordships with any
further observations, he thanked them for the attention they
had bestowed upon the few remarks he had felt it necessary
to make on the question.
Lord STRAFFORD then addressed the House at some
length, but his observations were perfectly inaudable in the
gallery.
Lord DE ROS had some doubt as to whether the induce-
ment held out by her Majesty's Government to the old soldier
would cause him to re enlist, or to join those bands of pen-
sioners of which mention had been made. In the event of its
not being so, the most serious inconvenience would arise from
the necessity of taking a large number of raw recruits to fill
their room. In the cavalry, of which he was more qualified to
speak than of the infantry, much serious inconvenience would
arise from the recruits' want of knowledge with regard to their
horses. They would require men who were experienced grooms,
and not men who three months before had been tailors or shoe-
makers. He did not see hew such an evil was to be got over.
On these grounds, and on others which he would not trouble
their lArdships by stating, as the objections they contained
had already been put forth by others, he should nut support
the Bill.
Lord CLEVELAND said that he did not think that this
measure would accomplish two of the great objects which it
professed to accomplish, namely, that of inducing a better class
of men to enlist in the army, or that of keeping them in the
army whets their period of enlistment had expired. H. e
thought that twenty years was the utmost period that a soldier
should be called upon to serve, for their Lordships had to con-
sider that he had to bear the extremes of heat and cold--he
had to undergo fatigues and privations, and the effect was that
few after ten years' servitude could boast of a strong or healthy
constitution. He should certainly recommend that all soldiers
discharged at the end of ten years servitude should have a
pension of 6d. a day.
Lord STANLEY said that he felt the greatest difficulty in
dealing with this question, but his difficulties would have been
greatly increased if he supposed that his Noble Friend the
Duke who sat near him had recommended its adoption to the
Government. But although the Noble Duke had declared
hniintention of voting for the second reading of the measure,
still they might gather from his speech that he at hest thought
that the evils which were threatened by the measure might
possibly be avoided, and they could easily
gather from him, that
he was inclined to think it an uncalled for, and, at best, a
doubtful measure. The Noble Earl sought by it to make the
army popular, and :to assist, by the training of an efficient
monis, the minessy rierenees of the country. 'She Noble
Earl's address for the first hour and a half was exceedingly in-
teresting, as showing the efforts that had been made to improve
the condition of the army, but not one word of that portion of
his address had reference to the present measure or in any dis-
tant manner bore affinity to it. Let the Government go on
improving the moral condition of the men—let them improve
their domestic comforts—let them improve the quality
of their provisions—let them give them libraries and
means of mental recreation, but giving these, would it be al-
leged that they were incompatible with enlistment for periods
at the individual's pleasure ? It was alleged that the army was
unpopular. Where was the proof that it was so ? Was this
Bill calculated to make it more so? lie thought not. He had
returns of the enlistment from 1817 to 1838 (and this in a time
of peace) in the London district, and he found that out of the
immense number of 12,006 who had enlisted, only 218 had
chosen the period of limited service. But he would take a
stronger case. He found that from the year 1809 to the year
1828, 39,687 persons had enlisted in Dublin, and out of this
number only 95 men had chosen the limited period of service.
But this system was put an end to in 1829 by
an from order from the Government? Then why
appeal to that House on this question ? Why appeal to
Parliament then ? An order could at once command that
limited enlistment should be the rule from that flay forward.
They took from the agricultural labourers, who were their
best recruits—they took from the manufacturing districts who
were their next best recruits—but if they passed this Bill,
they would begin to take from the class of lawyers clerks, and
the result would be, that they would have a dissatisfied and in-
subordinate body of men in the army. It was his opinion that
these who entered the army as the law now stood, considered
that it did not matter whether they inlisted for a limited period
or for life ; but if their Lordships passed this Bill, they would
be holding out an inoucement to the scape-grace or
unthinking youth to enter the army.—( Hear, hear.)
It would lead to the manning of the service
by a class of men who would look upon their duties as a tem-
porary occupation, instead of a profession. Now, the success
of the army—the efficiency of the army it would be denied by
no party, depended upon the existence of a different feeling.
Just fancy then applying the same rule to any other trade or
profession. Could they ever ensure success or perfection in any
calling, where a feeling was only encouraged, that the parti-
cular trade or profession was to be temporary and not permanent.
The idea was opposed not only to experience, but to common
sense, and yet that was in point of fact the principle enunciated
in this Bill. He had now disposed of the arguments of three
points urged in favour of this Bill by the Noble Earl who intro-
duced it, and he had now to say a word, and a word would be
enough, to the reason addeced by a Noble and Gallant Gene-
ral, who he did now see in his place, in support of this Bill.
The Noble and Gallant General seemed to think that the pro-
visions of this Bill would prevent the desertion of the soldier
who had served in the army for some length
of time. Why, were was the necessity for a
Bill to prevent each an occurrence as that, when

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF LORDS, April 26.
ARMY SERVICE BILL.
Earl GREY (in continuation from our Third
of last night) said, there was cue improvement that had
taken place which was deserving of notice—namely, th(
providing of place: for recreation. The subj,ct of th.
state and improvement of colonial troops had been takes
up, which was most important, because, as their Lord-
ships were aware, thst it was the strong pressure ~f tin
colonial service that rendered the service unpopular. I
was a fact that, as late as 1836, only two days' fresl
provisions were issued to the soldiers, and the re.nainde,
of the week they were obliged to take salt provisions.
An improvement had taken place in that particular.
Savings banks had also been e,tablisheti, the effect oi
which would prove most beneficial. Measures had
been adopted for improving instruction in the army.
That was a matter of the greatest importance.
because the welfare of soldiers was in a great
measure dependent upon the instruction they received.
Having thus stated generally, but imperfectly, the mea-
sures which had been lately introduced for the improve.
ment of the army, he would now call attention to Limit
effects, and in doing so he would refer to two heads—an
state of punishment, and the mortality in the army.
With regard to the first, he was sorry to say that he had
not returns to prove this as he could wish, but he had In
doubt he would be able to show that the improvement
had been ♦ery great, and that there had been a great
diminution in punishment in the army. In 1818, out of
28,900 men, there were 2,273 who were sent to the hos.
p:.tal after the infliction of corporal punishment, being
SO men out of 1,000. Last year there were only 4 cut of
1,000 who were subjected to corporal punishment. In
the year 1829 there were 19 out of the 1,000, and from
that year to 1836, the series was 16, 14, 11, 10, and 7,
respectively, out of the 1,000. From 1836 to the pre
sent time, the number had been progressively diminish-
ing. In 1845 it was reduced to 6 7-10. In 1846 there
were no returns, but from that portion of the army from
which they had returns, it was only 4 out of the 1,000
He found that the sentences of death were very much
decreased in number in the ten years between 1826 and
1835: the number of sentences of death passed wa,
seventy six, and of which forty-one were actual]}
executed, the remainder were commuted to transperta
tion. The punishment in the last few years had
dwindled down to only one and two each year, while the
sentences of transportation and imprisonment were pro-
portionately decreased. He found that while the num
ber of me❑ serving in the army was increased, the
mortality had decreased, in consequence of the measures
taken for the benefit of the troops, and by which then
health was very much improved. He had in his hand
returns of the comparative health of the troops. Ili-
found that in the ➢lediterranean, in the 20 years up to

1835, the mortality was 23 5-10ths for every 1,000 men
employed, while during the last two years the mortality
had been reduced to 14. In other foreign places the
mortality was diminished in a similar rate. In the
island of St. Helena, while the Emperor Napoleon was
detained there, the troops appointed to the statioi
scarcely ever eat fresh provisions except on special days.
and they were subject, although the station was a vere
healthy one, to very severe mortality; while the officers.
who were' exempt from the regulation with regard
to these provisions, were entirely free from mortality.
In Jamaica, during the twenty years to which he had
referred, the soldiers died at the rate of 128 6-10ths per
1,000, but within these few years, by changing the posi-
tion of the barracks, and improving the condition of th,
rations, the mortality had been reduced to 29 7-10ths pet
I,ooo.—(Hear, hear.) The result was, that in the-
whole of the tropical climates where the mortality wa,
formerly 84 2-10ths, it was now only 42 1-10;h pet
1,000, or a saving of life had been effected within the last
two years, of no less than 1,035 men, or about a battalion
a 3 ear.—(Hear, hear.) In India, however, lie was sorry
to say that no such improvement had taken place, but he
thought that state would only be a temporary one.—
(Hear, hear.) He did not think, however, that improve-
ment had as yet reached its highest point, and he con-
sidered that there was ample room for improvement in
the condition of the soldier, by improving and elevating
the position of the army, and thereby inducing a more
respectable class of persons to join its ranks. Looking
at the actual position of the soldiers, as compared with
the condition of the labourers in Dorsetshire, and other
counties of the country, it was really a wonder that the
army was not more sought after. The only reason that
he could find was, that the army was composed in gene-
ral of persons of the lowest character. He
did not look forward to see any great improve-
ment in the condition of the army until a change had
take place in this respect, arid the authorities of the
army were induced to say, " We will not admit any
person into the army, except persons of good character."
Their Lordships could easily imagine what a beneficia
change such n course would produce on the constitti
Lion of the army.—(Hear, hear.) A Noble Lord had
argued that if this measure were to pass, every soldier
would, at the expiration of ten years, leave the army.
The argument of the Noble Lord, however, went on the
supposition that every soldier would be so dissatisfied
with his condition, that he would wish to le4ve the rdriltr,
at the end of ten years. He (Lord Grey) did not think
that the soldier would be AO anxious to leave the army
at the end of ten years as he was at present, because
under the new system an improved condition would
take place in the soldier, and the officers knowing that
the men vvottlil have the power to leave at the end of
that period, would do their utmost to promote the com-
forts, interest, and welfare of the men under them. Such
was the principle of the Bill. Their Lordships would.
in committee, have an opportunity of deciding whether
they thought the period of ten years too long or too
short ; at present their Lordships were required only
to affirm the principles of the Bill. He might perhaps
be asked to state what he thought would be the result
of the working of this measure, hut to such a question
he could only reply that the experience which they had
had, under Mr. Wyndham's Act, was so short that it
really did not afford sufficient grounds for coming to
any conclusion upon the subject, though he thought that
if any conclusion could be drawn from the short period
in which that Act was in operation, it was somewhat iu
favour of the present measure. It was, however, of great
importance to provide some means for raising the con-
dition of the army, and for getting rid of the bad cha-
racter which the army' derived from the bad characters
who composed it; let it once he considered as a punish-
ment to be dismissed from the army, and he had no
doubt that the character of the army would then rise in
public esteem. Such a punishment was one much more
suited to the feelings of the public of this country than
that by the infliction of the lash. By the adoption of
this measure the country would also always have at its
disposal a numerous trained population ready to C 31120
forward in the service of the country. Such a system
was found to work well in Prussia, where almost
all the population were compelled for a period
of three years to serve in the army.—(!dear.)
That such a course tended to improve the strength
and add to the stability of a continental country
like Prussia there could be no doubt, bat although
it might be considered necessary for Prussia it
was also equally necessary for this country,
An Act had been passed in the last session for enrolling
the Chelsea pensioners, with a view to active service
when required. Under this Act upwards of 13,000 per-
sons had already been enrolled, and it was quite surpris-
ing to see with what ability they performed the various
exercises.—(Hear, hear.) This force would, therefore,
be of great service to this country in time of war in
garrisoning the towns of Portsmouth, Plymouth, and the
other towns of the coast. But if this measure were to
pass there would be a still greater number of men ready
trained and in the prime and vigour of life, ready at a
moment's notice to come forward for the defence
of the ctsientry, without the great expense at-
tendant upon a standing army, though it would
be an equally effective force. He anticipated
from this measure that the effect would be, that
a smaller number of men would be required for
the service of the army, the country having that reserved
force upon which to fall back. Gratuitous discharges
had been given to soldiers of good character during the
few past years; and the persons who availed themselves
of those discharges did not amount to more than three
or three-and-a-half per cent. At present the great ar-
gument against the dismissal of the bad soldier was, that
if it were carried into effect the good soldier would mis-
conduct himself for the purpose of obtaining his dis-
charge. There could be no doubt that they would lose
many of the very best of their men, who would obtain
civil appointments. He hoped that they might do so—
(Hear, hear)—for nothing would tend so much to render
the service popular as the knowledge that the men were
not tied to it for life, but that they might obtain other
employment at the end of their term. He believed that
that was one of the reasons why the French service, in
spite of the lowness of it 4 pay, was more popular than
the English. He thought that the next point of import-
ance to which they should direct their attention, was
the amount of pension which should be given at
the end of the usual period of service. 'There
should be some means of encouragement held out to the
soldier after the period of his retirement to join him-
self with companies of pensioners, who would be occa-
sionally called out to do duty on certain days in the
year. It would require very little or no pains to induce
them to do this, for in addition to the small annual
payment which would be given to them, they would have
the pleasure, and he believed that it would be no small
one, of again meeting in the ranks their old companions
in arms. The amount of pensions to be given to these
men when they became incapable of supporting them-
selves any longer by their own labour, was 6d. per day.
The Noble Lord near him smiled at the amount of the
pension, bat he could assure the House, that the amount
6(sl.pviaenrweek in addition to what other means a
f
might have provided, or might be still
enabled to earn by light labour, was by no means con-
saisderead apsenasiontriflwinogulimi be
matter.
foundAn Any increased
to be sum
injurious tgootth
re country,etri
n e u tihtewiroupLeinosffioeirlstwo
hmialenyththeye
were still capable of serpvfire. In 1829, when a man
after a service of twenty-one years was allowed to retire
upon a pension of Is. per day, it was found that the
burden upon the country was becoming so very serious
that it was cottititlled to be discontinued. Dtans rlytiof
these men Were only thirty-eight, thirty-nine, and forty

he found, by the published returns, that of the number of persens
who deserted from the British army, nearly the whole of them
where young recruits, who were disgusted with the hardships
and severe discipline of the first year's drill. The same Noble
Lord also remarked that the provisions of this Bill would have
the effect of inducing commanding officers to pay more atten-
tion to the conveniences and comforts of his mes. Such an
argument as that only served to threw discredit upon the exer-
tions of past commanding officers, while it only al-
tered the present principle thus much, that if a soldier
misbehaved himself, this Bill would place in the
hands of his commanding officer power to offer a reward
instead of chastisement for amendment, and thus held out a
premium for the acts of the wrong-doer. Looking, then, to
the experience of the past, and acting upon the conclusions
that such experience must lead to, he called upon their Lord-
ships, notwithstanding the opinion of the Noble Duke the
Commander-in-Chief, not to pass the measure.
The Earl of HARDWICK said he rose to call the atten-
tion of their Lordships to a branch of this sabject which had
not yet been touched upon. Their Lordships were aware that
this Bill applied to the marines as well as to the army. Now,
it was well known that it took five years' servitude to make a
good marine. It was absolutely necessary, therefore, that the
enlistment of marines should take place for a longer period than
ten years.

The Marquis of LAN SDOWNE said that it was with the
myr
oous sin
dte tend• r econviction
o popular
i h z
et
thea h t
arm
believedan the
d b y s
o presentdo ingmeasure
improve
its moral condition. He could lint, for a moment, believe that
the passing of this measure would be attended with that
risk or danger which some of his Noble Friends
had said would attend it. It had been said that
the good soldiers would leave at the end of ten years,
Why under the existing system, with respect to the good con-
duct warrants, only about twenty-five persons per annum had
availed themselves of its provisions; and was it to be supposed
that such great numbers would leave the army on the passing
of this measure ? it was a supposition perfectly unwarranted
port
thehy
to
themeasure. experiencea
be the result, he should most certainly not have given his sup
-
er
eo.f the
T h pe a
principles t. ffh e
et thought otubgeh tßill thatwsausch would
founded
upon the principles of human nature, and unless the British
itish
soldier was differently constituted from the soldiers of other
States, the measure would be as eminently successful in this as
in other countries.
Lord BROUGHAM said that their Lordships had only sat
there since five or six o'clock, but he had been there since ten
o'clock that mot fling. He had been sustained there through
had
dt
bleoenngtisieitrte.
sitting
He
by thhaedinnteeremstilittahryat the debate had excited,
although he felt extremely fatigued from the length of time he
k
he felt bound to express to their Lordships
or sekill v, ie butvrs
ips th
he entertained upon this subject. The measure was
none of the Commander-in-Chief's suggestion. The
Commander• in-Chief would have been the last man to
have suggested such a measure to the country, and he had not
even sanctioned it by his high authority. In speaking upon this
measure, his Noble Friend had only moderately supported it,
and while, on the part of Government, he spoke in favour of
the measure, he gave his reasons for doing so, every one of
which reasons told all against it. Those reasons were all
meant to guard his own consistency, and they did most amply
guard it ; and his warning to the Government to leave the army
alone, seemed to say that he would give them his assistance
if they wished it, but they had better leave it alone.
The Noble Duke had addressed the House, not against the
somepre se n tm
portione measure e for which he w
of
that
tutuur e
whatsot h voting,ad
bebeunt
droppedm er merely
by againstthe
way, and which might be retrospective in its operations, or
might render the re-enlistment of the soldier, after the 10 or 12
years had expired, no longer a matter of option. He (Lord
Brougham) had never, in any debate in that House, heard
speeches delivered by his NobleeictFhrreewisseauldetrsseourfpo so
supported
conflicting.
:
stohnd him, and espe-
cially the Noble Lard who spoke last, in which the arguments
atuhens
eeedmddaiewiffdt
ehe
rrtoee o
ungutshep
a i
rtudt
witoot
uaensb rs
t osy
uf
apt aghpt variance with each other, or where
re t ei
na susor t
i itself,Tmhide r
ae
strain, that it almost loeootkirorteesddtphe like condemnation. His Noble
it,poesititrenthyadposptautleadr.thawt
atshenootbjtehcet opfrethseenriaaswu,reaswaist
to make
oh
make
related to the army, quite as well calculated to effect that °b-
eet. The law permitted enlistment for life, for seven, or for
fourteen years ; at least that was allowed down to the year
1829, when it was suspended by an order of Lord Hill. The
Government had, however, still the power to enforce limited
enlistment, without bringing the measure so fully under
the discussion of the Houses of Parliament. They
could at any time issue an order reversing the order of
Lord Hill, and there was their object attained at once.
His Noble Friend had said that one of the ways to be used to
popularize, as he called it, the army was to make dismissal from
the ranks a punishment. How did that agree with the rest of
his arguments. for at the end of a period of ten or twelve years
the maa would be dismissed and re-enlist. He thought that
this measure was pregnant with all the reedit, he would not say
of insubordination, but of discontent. It was one not calcu-
' listed to improve the condition and efficiency of the army, and
was a superfluous and fruitless trouble. This Bill professed to
do nothing that they could not have done without a Bill at all,
and without the fruitless discussion and trouble which
had beets caused by this measure. The proceeding in that
House would in a short time form the subject of military con-
versations all over the country. In less than twelve hours all
that had been said in that House would be known to every
soldier in St. James's and all over the country. They would
know that it seemed to be the unanimous feeling of all the
officers who had addressed the House that night, that the sol-
diers had not sufficiently large pensions. Would not such pro-
ceedings be calculated to excite discontent and dissatisfaction
by the attempt to enforce a needless, useless, and superfluous
measure. He deeply lamented that such a measure had been
brought fora ard. He strongly and conscientiously opposed it; and
feeling the evils it would create, he for one should vote against
the further progress of this Bill.—( Hear. )
Earl GREY said that the Noble and Learned Lord had, in
his speech, indulged in some romantic ideas upon this subject,
upon which he replied strongly—presuming upon the ignorance
of his hearers. The Noble and Learned Lord should, at
any rate, have known the law as it then existed. The Noble
anif Learned Lord had the other evening spoken against the
Government for taking it upon themselves to issue an order
in Council, which, by Parliament, they were distinctly au-
thorised to do. The Nob'e Lord now stated that there was no
necessity for this Act, as the power for enlisting for a
limited period already existed. He could state to the
Noble Lord that in time of peace, the Crown had
no power to enlist soldiers at all, except by virtue of
an act of Parliament. The 'sewer, as it now existed, did not
warrant any enlistment for a perion of ten years, and therefore
this Act became necessary. He would not detain their Lord-
ships any further except upon one point, namely, that he had
been represented as stating th It the condition of the British
soldier was one of slavery. He had not stated any such thing,
but so far from it, he had, in order to meet that argument,
gone into a tolerably minute detail of what had been
done of late to ameliorate the condition of the soldier.
With reference to the application of this measure to
the marines, it was certainly proper and just that if Parlia-
ment sanctioned its application to the army that it should be
applied to the marines.
relt certainly
necessary to establish a separate system for the two. e had
already gone sufficiently far into this subject before, and he
The House divided
For the amendmeni w
en
Non-contents present
not then detain their Lordships any further.
st would not be thought
H
After a few words in explanation from Lord BROUGHAM,
when there appeared :
53
Proxies
Against it--

- 94

Contents present
Proxies ......

Their Lordships then adjourned —WS
Majority against the amendment... .-14
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
committed.
at Half-past Twelve o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS. April 26.
WASTE LANDS IN IRELAND.
Mr. HUM E observed that it was proposed by Government
to ask for leave to bring in a Bill to apply fora sum for the
improvement of waste lands in Ireland. Ile trusted that the
measure would be brought on in time to allow of the discussion
of the important principles involved in it.
Lord JOI IN RUSSELL had no objection to bring it for-
ward early in the evening.
The order of the day for bringing up the report was then
reads

Sir WILLIAM MOLESWORTH, in bringing forward his
motion, " That any measures of the Committee of the Privy
Council on Education, or other regulations, which exclude
Roman Catholics from participating in any grant of public
money for purposes of education, by requiring in all schools
which receive such grants of public money the use of the au-
thorised version of the Scriptures, are inexpedient and ought to
be rescinded," said that he had a petition from above 3,000
Roman Catholic schoolmasters in Manchester, complaining
of the operation of the Bill, and its exclusion of
themselves from the advantages given to the
other religious persuasions of the country. The
simple object of his motion was to make the measure of
the Government—which many thought a partial one—one to
enable the Government to impart some of the public aid
to the Roman Catholics. It might be said, however, that the
Roman Catholics did not need external aid, fur they had never
made education an object of their consideration. But he was
certain that they stood more in need of aid than any other sec-
tion of the population. He asked the House to consider what
accommodation the Roman Catholic population in the manu-
facturing districts possessed. lie had received papers. from
Manchester, which fully confirmed the statements made in the
/louse the other night by an Hon. Member. The lion. Gen-
tleman proceeded to read documents at some length. In
Liverpool there was at least 20,000 children of Roman Ca-
tholics, a great proportion of whom were not receiving edu-
cation. In Middleton there were 6,000 Roman Catholics in
the same position. Bolton, Stockport, and the metropolis
were in the same position. London alone contained from
150,000 to 200,000 Roman Catholics. In the east district of
Londen there were 20,000 Roman Catholics, with 2,000 children,
and only 800 were receiving education. In Finsbury there were
30,000 Catholics, of whom but 500 children were being edu-
cated out of 2,000. In Marylebone only 800 children of the
Roman Catholics were receiving education out of 3,000, be-
longing to a population of 30,000. In Chelsea but 200 chil-
dren out of 1,000 were being educated. In the Borough which
he represented, Southwark, there were 40,000 Catholics, with
4,000 children, and only 100 were receiving any education.
In Lambeth the number of Catholic children was 1600,0 f which
but BO were receiving education. Great Britain had been esti-
mated to contain 1,590,000 Roman Catholics,though 800,000 he
thought nearer the number, and out of 65,000 children
belonging to them, not more than 30,000 were edu-
cated ;
leaving 35,000 without any education at all.
It had been stated that no application had been made for assist-
ance by Roman Catholics ; but this was an error, for last
summer an application was made by the Hon. Mr. Langton, to
the Council, tor a grant in aid o certain schools, in a very peor
district in the neighbourhood o Lantlport, which was not
favourably entertained. 1. the f
r f
eply, it was stated that the
minutes to be adopted required the daily reading of the Scrip-
tures. But then this involved the reading of the whole of the
Bible. This wss the injurious system of the Government, and
only the other day a meeting was held, at which three of the
most respectable Roman Catholic bishops were present, and
where the Earl of: SlarebFy presided
, a resolution was
unanimously passed condemning the scheme of the Govern-
ment. He must say that it was his belief that the Roman
Catholics had been sacrificeu in order to still the opposition of
the Dissenters. After the, speeches of the Noble Lord
the Member for W Yest orkshire ( Lord Alorpeth), the
Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth (Sir it.
Peel), and the Noble Lord)res3
histhe Member for London (Lord
J. Russell), he must ex;disappointment. Even had
t Protestantism.yat
etitw whaos
a ft
refused, e
puhlsieess solofafv
Parliament,e and to those of the
the Roman Catholics neither asked nor required assist-
ance, they were fully entitled to a benefit from
the State, and no difference ought to have been
made in this country between Catholics and Protestants,
especially as Catholicism and Protestantism had ceased to be the
despotism aanendds
than he could understand the feelings of the slave owner in the
southern estates of America, whose life and property depended
representatives of
Roman Catholics to tbe functions of the Legislature in both
Nodinidobree
r admitting
highest offices under Government, refused to grant to them the
uunPednertshtaenedd
minor rights to which they were entitled. The Right lion.
that and thetuhoceat other nHocfoi
Gentleman, the Slabber for Edinbirgh, described this as a
rytttfm of pert's* hurgartiglith Intl he appealedto rove ages,

as looking back with astonishment to the opposition offered 1 her of the present Government, and he had not the slightest
to the measure, and looking back with even greater astonish- ' doubt that the minute of council which had been promised
ment that this opposition should be offered in the name of would be laid upon the table, and he should be doing an ilijus-
civil and religious liberty. But would not future ages lcok tice to those gentlemen, and an injury to the body with which
back with still greater astonishment at the fact that he was connected, if, in the event of a division, he refrained
there were eight hundred thousand Catholics in this coon- from expressing by his vote his confidence in a ministry who
try, and that they were debarred the means of education. had exhibited such an enligetened regard for the welfare of the
Formerly the Catholics were only excluded with the Wes- people, and who had the means, as well as the will, to confer
leyans and other parties from participating in the Government such an inestimable boon as that of education on the Catholic
grant ; but now, when it was: proposed to exclude' them community.
alone, he considered them to be deeply injured and insulted. Sir R. INGLIS had never before hail the advantage of
They were excluded by the construction which Dr. Kay mcetini the Hon. Gentleman behind him (Mr. More O'Fer-
Shuttleworth had put on the minute of council about reading rail) on common ground before, and he could not refrain from
the Scriptures in the schools. He considered this a most ur.- expressing the great satisfaction which he felt in so cordially
worthy course, and the motion which he had to propose was concurring with him as he did on the present occasion.
to put an end to all ambiguity and doubt on the questien. The Mr. M. MILNES said that when it was recollected that the
Noble Lord the Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire, Government gave funds for Mahommedan education in India,
said the other night that when he became a Member of the it was at least surprising that there had been any objection to
Commi•tee of Council for Education, he found certain rules include the Roman Catholics in the Government scheme, and
in existence which he considered so important that he could he deeply regretted that the Noble Lord had placed himself,
not consent to their being changed without the melee of Par- unnecessarily as he conceived, in a false position, by placing the
liament. But he continued to say that if a notice for religious portion of the question, as he did do, prominently
giving aid to the Roman Catholics were communicated, forward, by making the grant to that body a separate measure.
he would continue a Member of the Committee. It. was far When the Member for the University of Oxford had given his
that purpose, he ( Sir W. Moleaworth) hail given nonce, and unequivocal support to the principle of education, he felt that
hoped the Noble Lord would give him his vote. He expected there need have been no hesitation on the part
also the votes of the Hon. Members for Dorchester and Tam- of the Government. Nevertheless, he die' consider that it
worth on the ground of the liberal sentiments by which they was a defect in the measure, that the whole of the grant
had committed themselves to the country, and the Roman had not been given solely to secular education,
Catholics the other night before the House. Now, it was said, He thought that it was quite an error to suppose that the
it was not expedient to meet this question at the present mo- Roman Catholic church was opposed to the Scriptures being
went; who were to blame for that?—why Government, for read by the people. If the version authorised by that church
bringing it forward at this moment. But ahy was it exile- was read in the schools daily, their authorities, he was sure,
dient I It was said that a general election was at band—that would find no fault with it. But looking at the many diffi-
out of doors there was a strong feelino against Roman Catho- culties which surrounded the question debarred him from any
iics. Well if there were was that House to participate in with to interfere with the religious education of the people.
such feeling. Were the Members of that House to be the A secular education TriS still somewhat unpopular. He ex-
mere puppets of the elective body in carrying out petted the nation would advance, and he thought the only sys-
their wishes. Fur his part he believed that House were in tem which would certainly prosper, unimpeded by the diffi-
advance of the people, and he considered a seat in that House cultie; which he had allioted to. was one by which Government
was the highest honour that could be conferred on a man, pro- provided for the secular part of the education, leaving the rest to
sided he obtained it by fair means. He said, then, let them private effort, the Government only taking care that the schools
do justice to the Roman Catholics first, and then go to the were conducted on high principles of morality. He, under
hustings and command their constituents to confirm the Act, that conviction Would give the Government his support, feel-
and, by Heaven, he believed they would succeed.—(Cheers.) mg assured that they had to struggle with many diffieulties
The motion having been seconded, which they had endeavoured to overcome.
Sir GEORGE GREY rose and said he would not detain Mr. FORBES felt it necessary to state to the House his rea-
the House long in meeting the amendment of his Hon. Friend. son for supporting the Government measure. It was that he
The Honourable Gentleman bad twice risen to make this mo- thought a necessary part o f the national system was that the
tion, but he had nothing to retract. He had pledged himself, authorised version of the Scriptures should always form part of
and he stood to the pledge, that a grant of assistance would the education of the young of the country. He would always
be given to Roman Catholics. The Hon. Gentleman had not give his countenance to instruction in the Holy Scriptures, and
quite taken the right course to carry his proposition ; and he therefore he would oppose the motion.
thought it would be far better to leave The matter in the hands Mr. AGLIONBY hoped the Honourable Baronet would
of the Government, and when the minutes were framed for take the advice tendered him from many on both
the purpose it would be time to discuss the question.— sides t f the House, and withdraw his motion. He
(Cheers.) For his own part, he would a great deal rather (Mr. Aglionby) was opposed to the motion, not because it
that a minute was quite ready to lay on the table of the House. went ton far, but because it did not go far enough. He ad-
The Hon. Gentleman had requested that there might be no mitted Roman Catholics to participation in the benefits of the
doubt, no ambiguity whatever, and after the speech of his Government, bat then there were some other sects excluded
Noble Friend thre certainly was neither. For his own part and left unaffected by the motion of the Hon. Baronet. Why
he might say, that if it were possible to lay a measure before was that? Many Dissenters were excluded by implication.
the House this session, the Government would do so, but he But he referred more particularly to the Jews, who we. e de-
would net pledge himself on the present occasion. prived entirely of the advantages to be derived by other of
Lord HARRY VANE thought that the Right Honourable their fellow-subjects. lie was sorry, indeed, that the Govern-
Gentleman was quite right in the course which he had taken. ment had not carried their measure much farther, and made it
lie was gratified to learn that her Majesty's Government were much bolder at once. He was sure they would have met with
going to introduce a measure on the subject, and he thought greater support than had been given there, great as that had
that the minute, when it was introduced, should state expressly been.
with-
the course which the Government intended to take in carrying' ed again that the Hon. Baronet would
out their intentions. He regretted that the Noble Lord Mr. NEWDEGATE
raid the qustion was too important
(Russell) did not bring forward the question. before this, so that he should maintain silence, and ive his vote without ex-
that it might be set at rest. But after the discussion which planation. He agreed i withnee
had taken place, he thought that no time should be lost, and Hon. Member on his left
(Mr. Forbes). He honoured the
Noble the head of
he trusted the declarations made to-night by two Members of forthe Lord. at.
the Government,
the Government would be satisfacomy, and that during thethe manly way in which he had
brought forward his measure d'
present session the minutes would be brought forward. He ee,d xedalng to take his
whichcoun-
try by surprise. He repudivart
would, therefore, recommend to the Hon. Gentleman the pro- et. le the bigotryl ou
had been thrown out from the other side of
priety of withdrawing his motion; as under the circumstances, those who rejected the spirit of this motion. Hese stood
n
he did not think it wise that he should proceed. by those sentiments and principles which had done
Sir ROBERT INGLIS opposed the motion, and he did so honour to this country, and entered intimately into
e
W
on the merits of the question itself, irrespective of any other its constitution. Bigotry ! Why some of the Members of that
consideration. lie would do so; no matter by whom the House _seem to have been carried away with a fury for educe-
question might be introduced, or at what time, or under what tion, till in the liberality of their sentiments, as they called
circumstances. He objected to it, because he believed it to be them, they opened the national privileges to Jews, Turks, and
the narrow end of the wedge, by which it was sought to injure infidels. He could not allow a charge of bigotry to be made
the great Protestant interests of the country. He hoped he against him, for supporting principles which he defended
might tell his Right Hon. Friend (Sir R. Peel) that not all against a church which was encroaching, and which claimed
his protection, nor all his support, would enable the Noble Lord too much.
to carry a measure of concession to the Roman Catholics, which Mr. BELLE W, as a Roman Catholic Member of the
was inimical to the constitution of England, and the great House. rose to explain his reason for voting in sup-
mass of the people. The great body of tee people port of the Government measure, which was intended
were apposed to any further concession, and he ap- to advance the civil and religious liberties of the
prehended that any measure of that kind would be country. It was a matter of congratulation to the country
hailed with the greatest disapprobation. According to the that it had a Ministry, whose life from the first had beets given
report of the returns of Catholic marriages niade by the Regis- in public to the advancement of these principles. The advan-
trar.General, the total number of Catholics in England was tages that would be gained from the measure were great, and
less than 300,000. That report only gave 2,230 marriages the amount of it nowhere so great as in this country. He
celebrated among the Catholics in 1844, and from the circum- thought the measure was called for from the great amount of
stances of Catholics elevating marriage into a sacrament, it ignorance which prevailed in this country, and though the
might be presumed that they would have all their marriages members of his own religion were excluded the benefits of the
celebrated in churches. He thought that when they had grant of Friday night last, still he could not bring himself, on
heard the statements which had been made by the Secretaries that ground, to oppose the extension of education to others.
of State and the first Lords of the Treasury of the present and He thanked the Hon. Baronet, however, for bringing forward
late Government, that every exertion would be made to carry the motion, but, after the pledges of her Majesty's Govern-
this measure of concession to the Roman Catholics ; but he ment on the subject, he could not reconcile it with his sense of
thought that the people of England would be too powerful for duty to support the motion.
them and would successfully resist any measure which had for Sir WALTER JAMES agreed with the Hon. Member for
its object the payment of the Catholic priesthood in the eaten- Cockermouth that the Government ought to have taken a
sion of the public money to Catholic education. lie would re- bolder course. He would be very glad to see his own opinions
sist any further concession, and he could not allow the speech of what he considered right carried out, but as from the divisions
of the Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of State to pass, without existing among the people, this was impracticable, he would
liberating his own conscience, and recording his determination extend the principle of equality towards all. As he had some
to oppose to the utmost all measures of further concession. confidence in the Government, he could not suppo:t the motion
Sir ROBERT PEEL said that whenever his Hon. Friend of the Hon. Baronet.
expressed any opinions in that House, however emphatic might Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT was distinctly of opinion that
have been his declaration of them, so great was his ( Sir R. if the system of bestowing the grants of late years was to be
Peel's) respect for his integrity that he always believed that disputed, he thought the Noble Lord had acted rightly in
he expressed them with sincerity, He could not, therefore, extending education towards all, and he thought the difficulties
but believe that he would have shown more of courtesy and of of the Noble Lord would be aggravated by delay.—(Hear,
truth had the Hon. Gentleman extended to others the same hear.) lie disapproved of the principle of secular education
justice. For his own part, in the sentiments he gave ex- apart from religion as advocated by Dr. Hook, for he consi-
pressiun to a few hours ago he was only influenced by a desire tiered that religion should not be separated from education.
to act equitably towards all, and the only object he had in view lie thought the Noble Lord should feel satisfied with the
was to extend equal justice to the different classes of her Ma- general approval with which his plan had been received, and he
jesty's subjects. His lion. Friend imputed to him a wish to sincerely hoped that, withont making any distinction of sects,
outbid the Noble Lord at the head of the Government in an they would extend to all the advantages of education.
attempt to conciliate the Roman Catholics and liberal patties Mr. ROEBUCK said if the interpretation of the Hon. Gen-
He could assure him, however, that this was not the case. He tleman, who had just sat down, was correct as to the imme-
had no such object in view, and if he had. he greatly feared diet, intentions of her Majesty's Geyernment to bring in a riii-
that that was not the move by which it could be note to extend the advantages of education to the Catholics,
best accomplished.—( Hear.) In giving expression to the then the House would be saved a great deal of unneces.ary
opinions which he did, he had only looked to the justice of the discussion. He feared, however, that this was not an exact in-
case, and he appreheni,ed that in the course he took he terpretation. The Hon. :Wernher for Southwark was met wi,ll
rather subjected himself to the loss of popular favour. His all sorts of professions on both sides of the House. 'Would the
lion. Friend said, that the entire number of the Catholics of Noble Lord get up and tell them, either that the Catholics
England was only 300,000. Now, if that we, -e the case, he were to get share of this 100,0001, or that he would bring- in
would like to ask him what political purpose he could have to a distinct minute for them this session ? If the Noble Lo,d
serve in trying to conciliate this small number, who were but gave such a promise, he (Mr. Roebuck) promised lie would not
the 143 th part of the population. He did not think also, that trouble him again on this question. He was surprised that
any measure in their favour was exceedingly popular in that the two Roman Catholic gentlemen who were connected with
House, for he recollected that,.not a week since. a measure of the Government, had not opened their mouths on this question.
concession towards them was lost by a majority of thirty-nine. If it was my faith that was thus treated, I would net suffer the
It was his decided opinion that the minutes ought to be made contumely. Some lion. ,Member, like the Hon. Member for
to embrace the Roman Catholics as well as the other religious Warwick, would endeavour to raise ano popery cry, and that
parties proposed. Still he had no wish to press it, so as to ember- convinced him of the evils of a mere sectarian education. It
rass the Noble Lord at the head of the Government. His ex- was a proof that education should be directed to make men
perience of official life was too recent for him not to know the virtuous and intelligent, and not to quarrel about religious
difficulties which must surround the Government in dealing differences of points of faith. As far as he could judge from
with this question. The position of the Minister was different the speeches of the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern -
to that of an individual in that course. An individual could ment, his fears were not that the House of Commons would
easily state a plan or bring forward a measure to carry out a go against him, but that the country would ; and he knowing
particular policy ; but a minister had to consider all the cu.- this, that the House would soon lead the country, was desirous
cumstances by which he was surrounded, and his official re- of waiting till that time arrived.—( Hear, hear.) This
sponsibility, ere he could agree to such a course. At present, seemed to be the actuating motive of the Government.
therefore, he (Sir Robert Peel) was content with the rime- In talking so much about the faith of the Roman
sure, and while he had taken the earliest opportunity of stat- Catholics, they seemed to forget the intolerance and illiberality
ing his opinion in favour of the Roman Catholics participating of many of the other sects that received aid from the Govern-
in the grant, he would not be a party to snent grant. The British and Foreign School Society was
any vote colculated to embarrass the Government, lie one in point—for at their training school at Battersea they em-
would hope, that after the speech of the Right ployed class-books attacking the tenets of the Roman Catho-
lion. Baronet at the head of the Horne Department, on this lies, and laying down rigid rules of religious conformity.
matter, that the present motion would not be pressed. Neither Roman Catholics nor Dissenters could he admitted on
After that statement, and the pledge of the Noble Lord to account of the regulations. If they passed this vote of
introduce a special minute in order to embrace the Roman 100,0001. the Roman Catholics would not be heard of more ;
Catholics, lie thought the question might be fairly left in their and if the next Parliament was a liberal House of
hands. He agreed with them in not pledging themselves as Commons, then, perhaps, the claims of that party
to any particular time, as it might embarrass them; it was would be revived, but not " otherwise. What is
sufficient that for the [resent they were pledged to the prin- the vote of the 100,0001. but to remove ignorance
ciple, and that they would bring forward a measure, after °Pe and prejudice, and where in the country was it more required
portunity had been given them to maturely consider the than in those commercial and manufacturing districts where
subject. He had seen enough of the difficulties of a Govern- there were large bodies of Irish Roman Catholics.—(Hear,
ment, under such circumstances, to admit of any other course hear.) This was where education was most required, and he
than this. Having made these observations on the question therefore objected in lota to the educational scheme ; because
before the House, he hoped the Hon. Member for Southwark it offered money to those who already had it, and refused it to
would not press his motion to a division.—( Hear.) those who had none.— ( Hear, hear.) lie wanted some definite
Mr. VERNON SMITH hoped the speech of the Hon. pledge from the Noble Lord when he intended to bring for-
Member for the University of Oxford would open the eyes of ward a motion to include the Roman Catholics. He (Mr.
the Government, and that they would at once act on their eon- Roebuck) would not be contented with a general promise,
victions, and bring in a measure to promote the education of he must have a specific time given. If the Noble Lord had
the Roman Catholics. He did not think there would be much the courage to avow himself, and at once bring forward such
difficulty in framing a minute, as there were Roman Catholic a measure, he did not believe that ultimately he would
bishops waiting to be put in communication with them on the lose a single supporter.—( Hear, hear.)
subject. They had already an excellent ground-work in the Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the lion. and Learned Gen-
British and Foreign School system now in operation in Ireland: tleman the Member for Bath had stated that he had not given
The question ought to be settled now, without waiting further. sufficient explanation, and had called on him farther
to state his
No doubt the "No Popery" cry would be again raised, views. The Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark had
but the Noble Lord should pay no attention to that, brought forward his motion in a fair and temperate speech, and
bat act justly in the matter to all parties. At the present had asked him for some additional reasons why he refused to
moment, however, he trusted the Hon. Member for Southwark accede to the request he had made. He (Lord John Russell)
would withdraw his motion. begged leave to say that his Right lion. Friend near him, the
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL thanked the lion. Member for Secretary for the Home Department, had stated over again to-
Southwark for making the motion ; for whatever it would lead night what had been stated on previous occasions, and the
to, the discussion which had arisen on it must do good. What- grounds why the Government objected to the motion of the
ever injustice the Government had done to the Roman Catholics, Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark. That satisfied many
in excluding them from the grant, they had believed in that Hon. Members in the House, and they had expressed them-
coarse they had done the greatest harm to themselves. selves willing to leave the question in the hands of Govern-
There was one point to which he was desirous of referring. It ment. They had given them credit for the motives b • h
y which
was the treatment of the Roman Catholic prelates. [hey they were actuated, and that they
pro-
ought to have been treated in an entirely different spirit, and were satisfied with the
mise of the Gov '
Government. This had been the opinion of the
consulted in a more decorous manner than had been the case •
Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tatnworth, of the Hon.
One thing, however, he begged to insist on, notwithstanding Member fir. •Wiltshire,
what had been said by the lion. Member for the University se
of the Hon. Member for Kildare (him-•
self a Roman Catholic), and other Hon. Membeys. He was
of Oxford, and that was, that the Roman Catholics should be satisfied with their confidence, and the distrust of the Hon. and
placed on the same footing as the other sects and portions of
Learned Member for Bath— Hear, h this country. If the Hon. Baronet, the Member for South- ( ear)—and, therefore,
would not think it necessary to make any further
nark (Sir W. Me iesworth) divided the House on this question •
observations • for these reasons he wouldmgt enter
he should certainly vote with him, but he acknowledged that
into further' explanationson the he was not sufficiently impartial to give him any advice on the fhe Hon. and Learned Memberfor question. Bath s
e —(Hear,eed
toc
ohnecaet;,. e
)
subject; but whether he came to the contest now, or at some that no good men could act without some particularm interest
future period, he had fully entitled himself to the gratitude of was served, and he did not seem to believe that any member of
the poor both in this country and in Ireland.—(Loud cheers.) the Government could possibly have any object to effect except
Mr. LAW quite felt the difficult position in their own. When every member had' been, in the utmost de-
which the Noble Lord (the Member for London) was placed. gree, willing to relieve a starving and dstitute peopled
But this much he would say, that he bad well done his duty, when a great calamity had occurred, and for whose relic.
both to his country, to his party, and to the House. He had all parties in the State had conjoined to assist, whe
himself given his ready support to the Government in the plans ther they be members of the Church of England, Protestant,
which they had proposed, and he was quite ready to give his as- Dissenters or Roman Catholics.—(Loud cheers.) But the '
sent to the defence of the Right lion. Baronet the Member for lion. Gentleman had given an expressive warning that there
Tarnworthoshich was conclusive on the score of popularity; and were other populations which required the assistance of Go-
whether he looked to the late divisions, or to the feelings out of vernment in consequence of the great necessity in which they
doors, he was happy in stating that the plan was satisfactory to were placed, and saidlthat he had observed a triumphant smile
all parties of the Protestant community. But what was to fol- on his countenance (Lord J. Russell's) at the expression which
low was a matter for future consideration, and whether the had fallen Lona him. But if such were the case the smil- was
plans to be hereafter brought forward were to be satisfactory not from the observations made by the Hon. and Learned
not only to the Protestants, but also to the Roman Catholic Gentleman ; but from the recollection that the provisions of
gentlemen, who took an interest on this occasion, it would be
the minutes of 1839, had amply referred to the necessity of
quite premature to discuss. Whether the Douay version was which the lion. and Learned Member complained. But
to be used or not, was yet a matter of question, and until that the lion. and Learned Member hal a further complaint, and
was ascertained, it would be impossible to express any opinion had stated that if a Ministry had come into power by come
upon the matter; but this he might say, that whatever the plans accident—and through the agency of its opponents—with any
might be, that no plans, come from what quarter they might, merit of its own, it would feel that it was required, that it
would be received with so much gratification as from him. would accomplish something that was great. To this he (Lord
Yet he must reserve his guarantee till any of those plans were J. Russell) might reply, that if a city in the west of Emsla 1,
fairly before the House. sent a representative, who, without any i • ' m
time when, in o o-merit of his own,
Mr. LIDDELL well remembered the
with whom he had acted, he had stood by the measures which he him cavil at
sition to those self was unable d
side of the Noble Lord many years ago, when he was engaged to devise, that if he theca
inclined to draw attention to his theories,'
Acts. The Hon. Mem- Alti having any
in carrying the Corporation and 'Pest particular measure of his own to devi •
ber for Kerry (Mr. M. O'Connell) hail endeavoured to fix a 'lined to drays attentiun to theories which se, but sass merely in-
sort of charge on the Noble Lord, that ho had neglected the realised, were they to be attended
,) were never likely to Le
le of general assistance, but to this the House, by its lateto. —(Cheers. ) If a certain
to?—
principle city in the west of England
hadthat they were decidedly opposed, and he chose to
divisions, shown
send a Member merely
to which the Noble Lord
re-
roust say, that seeing the difficulties afrom caprice, and without any merit '
of his own, he should re-
member that there
mexposed, he felt it but due to him to say that on the pre- _ was always a disposition to allow for the de-
was ficienc
' he should give his decided opposition to the itie. i y• —( Loud cheers.) But the Hon. Member had stated
sent occasion
tion of the Hon. Member for Southwark. tle example of the lion. Member for Oxford, . his
Mr. and that, in
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said that no body was more opinion there ought not to be any allowance to the Roman Ca-
tholics. But .
decidedly interested in the grant to general education than were it. was on this account proceeding on the notion
the whole of the Catholic body, but the motion of the Hon, that
'Member for Southwark had at least brought forth this benefit,
• • that there of the
was no generosity—no consideration in any
that it had had at least this advantage, the bringing out ex- proceedings of any Member of that House, who was inclined
planations which ought to be satisfactory to the whole of the to support the Government. But this he believedany t
Catholic body. ire had for
man
years knowzi
ems
meal, very imperfectreference
view of the question, and without a the settee,
' to*nanertion of religions opinion, 'grow" '4

without any reference expressed out of doors, without arty e r e
ference to the opinion expressed by the Dissenters who sr • ere
connected with Mr. Baines, he would say that the best p sc.
vision that could be made bad been made for the provision foe'
the poor. He might have the misfortune to differ from some of
those who hail taken part in the debate, but there appeared to
be in the observations of the opponents a singular forgetfulness
of the ties which bound the several norticets of 'society tow.
ther. He had the highest feeling for those who opposed,
the plan of the Government, but be believed that out of
doors the highest respect would he felt for an assembly
which had treated this important question in the way in which
it had been met, but he must say, in his own opinion, the best
possible plan had been devised for the education of the people;
and, he believed, that every member of the community would
he satisfied with a measure in which the greatest relief was
need.
Mr. where there was the greatest d -
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE was not ataell. surprised that the
Noble Lord had withdrawn the attention of the -House from.
the question immediately before them ; and he was not suner
prised at the question of the Hon. Member for Wilts. The
only object of the Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark
was to obtain a rescinding of the minutes of Council which
granted this relief, and if he went out alone, unless a specific
answer was given as to when a provision was to be made
for the Roman Catholics, he would go nut alone and vote iFer the
motion. The whole of the difficulty had arisen from the secret
negotiations which had taken place with the Wesleyans„ and.
it was certainly owing to these understood proceedings that
the Government stood in the unfortunate relation in -which
they stood on this matter. The Right Hon. Member for
Edinburgh (Mr. Macaulay) had stated that all the clear state-
ment which he had made the other night was neither mare nor
less than a romance. But what was the real facts of the case ?
Why. that the negotiation with the Wesleyan Methodists had
nut taken place at Lansdowne House, but at the Treasury, and
notwithstanding the assertion of Lord Ashley, who had so
kindly come forward to speak on the matter that such was uOl.
the case, it was clearly evident that our Roman Catholic
fellow-subjects were to he sacrificed to the interests of the
Wesleyan Methodists. It was clearly stated in the circular of
Mr. Hughes, who appeared to have been the go-between
between the Ministry both with the Wesleyans and the
Church, and it was evident from that note that there was a
deeper intrigue—an intrigue with the Church by which the intr.
rests were equally to be sacrificed. By that note it was ex-
pressly stated that as an inducement to get up petitions Lord
John Russell had kindly consented to take charge of them.
What then became of the allegations of the Hon. Illember for
Edinburgh ? Why, what he had asseeted was substantially
correct. The truth was that the Church would get the whole
of the grant, for the Diss nters and the Catholics had both re-
fused it. Some promise bad been held out that there would
be a provision for the Roman Catholics, but it was plainly as-
serted by the Hon. Baronet who was the Member for the Uni-
versity of Cambridge ( Sir R. Irghs) that if there was to be
any provision for the Roman Catholics that h e would most de-
cidedly oppose it. The Hon. Member for Edinburgh had
entered into a lengthy tirade on the general advantages of
education, and had blamed him fer apparently doubting them.
Why who did doubt them in the present day. Certainly not
he; but unless these was some provision made for the Roman
Catholics, most deaidedly•would he oppose the plan • but if the
Government would come forward and say expressly that they
would introduce a measure for the education of their Roman
Catholic fellow-subjects, he fully believed that it would be
totally inoperative ; and in a few years the House would be as
heartily sick of it as they were at the present moment of the
new poor-law. When that law was introduced, he bad told
them that such a consequence would arise, but he was then
discredited, and yet how universal was the disgust that was now
felt. Yet if the Government would give the assurance to
which he alluded, he would unhesitatingly advise the lion.
Member the Member for Southwark to withdraw his motion.
They would soon have enough of the scheme when they had
all the schoolmasters appointed and those inspector gentlemen
—when they had those State spies intermeddling with the vil-
lage affairs. They would say, "Oh ! it is a pity that we ever
gave way to the scheme." But gentlemen, in the meantime,
were congratulating the Ministers on the majority which they
had gotten the other night on his (Mr. Duncombe's) amend-
ment. He admitted it ; it was a great and triumphant ina.
jority—but a majority obtained in the most ignoble manner—
a majority obtained by truckling to bigot: y and making conces-
sions to one and to another, which deserved to be shown up
and exposed. If the Roman Catholics obtained a benefit in
these Government grants, they would obtain it on account of
what had been said by the two Right Hon. Baronets opposite,
not because of any spirit of co.- cession on the part of the Go-
vernment. It would have been well if the Noble Lord had
consulted those two same Baronets before coming to the House
with his measure, instead of going to the paltry pettifogging
sect, in conference at Centenary Hall. The House has been
struggling for many years to emancipate the Catholics, when
should they succeed ? The Noble Lard said in his speech they
might not succeed for some time—nay, he said, not for some
years. Some years! He (Mr. Duncombe) told him that
if :he might have succeeded at once, he might have suc-
ceeded now, if be bad come down to the House
and laid upon the table, whatever opinion Dissenters might
have formed, or even have expressed, a bolder scheme, one that
went further. If the Noble Lord had said to the House.
" Whatever faults it has, it offers equal benefits to all equally ;"
then the Noble Lord might have had to struggle with opposition
from the other side, but he would have succeeded, if not better,
at least as well as he did the other night against his (Mr. Dun-
combe's) amendment. But no, the Government had truckled
to their political opponents ; to the other side of the House ;
and their own friends, who had supported them when in oppo-
sition, had been sacrificed.
Mr. BROTHERTON felt that he would best consult the
interests of the Roman Catholics by leaving their case in the
hands of the Government. He felt confident that right would
be done them ; and although in favour of the principle of the
motion, considering the difficulties which surrounded the
question, and which the House, perhaps, were not in circum-
stances to value, he would vote against the motion.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH then replied—He said he had
been requested to withdraw his motion, and among the rest by
the Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, whose judgment
he always respected. He ( Sir W. Molesworth) had often been
assisted by the Hon. Member for Bath, but he could not agree
with him that night in his estimate of human nature in that
assembly. He (Mr. W. Molesworth) would respect the
Members on the Ministerial bench as gentlemen who, having
made a promise to bring forward a motion so, n for a minute to
include the Roman Catholics, would make it good. H. would
on that understanding, with the permi-sion of the House, with-
draw the motion.—( bald cries of " No," from o•h sides.)
Mr. BRIG HT wished to explain. The Noble Lord at the
head of the GovernMent had spoken as though he had last
year voted against the Maynooth grant, because it went to the
Roman Catholics. Now he begged distinctly to state that such
was not his motive, and he then plainly intimated as much.—
( Divide, divide.)
Mr. J. COLLETT hoped that the Hon. Baronet would
not withdraw his motion.— ( Cries of " Divide.")
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD wished to know how the -
matter stood ? Were the Roman Catholics to be admitted to
the benefits of the vote, or were they nut? Had a pledge been
given that they would ? If not he hoped the Hon. Member
would not withdraw his motion.—(Loud cries of " Divide,
divide,") amid which,
Mr. HUME rose, and said he was gratified with what had
fallen from the Government, who had given their pledge for
the admission of the Catholics to a participation in the vote
ultimately, and with that be thought they ought to be satisfied,
without pressing the present motion to a division,—(Loud
cries of " Dtvide.")
The gallery was then cleared for a division, when there ap-
peared—
For the Amendment 22

Against it
Majority against the Amendment
Mr. EW AR f then brought forward the amendment of
which he had given notice, "that in districts where there is only
one school receiv.ng State support, children whose parents ob-
ject to the kind of religious instruction administered there, may
be admitted to the school without being subject to such reli-
gious instruction. That appointments under Government
be not reserved (as proposed in the minutes) for unsuccessful
candidates fur exhibitions in the normal schools alone, but be
thrown oien to general free competition, on the principle of
impartial examination." He thought that the proposition was
so equitable that no one could object to it. lie would, therefore,
rest his case on its own merits, and would not take up the time
of the House with any observations.
Mr. AGLIONBY seconded the motion, and thought it so
equitable, that he would not picture to himsel any objection to
the proposal. The proposition was as applicable to one class of
religionists as to another. To members of the Church of Eng-
land, Dissenters, and Roman Catholics. There could be no-
thing unjust in such a proposal, and he thought it the duty of
the Government to accede to it, as it did not give offence to
the religious feelings of any religious denomination.
Sir G. GREY thought that the resolution was the same in
principle as that which had been decided upon a few evenings
ago, and therefore he could not give it his support. The
schools to which the Government aid was to be extended were
voluntary schools, and he thought that if the principle of this
amendment were adopted, their character would be entirely
changed, and many of them, if this condition were imposed,
would in all probability reject the grant altogether. Ho could
not, therefore, assent to the proposal.
Mr. V. SMITH thought there was a practical difference
between the two motions. He thought this was a great practi-
cal grievance, and Mr. Kay Shuttleworth agreed with him in
that opinion. He hoped the Government would accede to it,
more especially as there was no class of religionists who could
take offence at it.
Mr. FINCH opposed the motion, and he believed, if her
Majesty's Ministry assented to it, it would be found to be ut-
terly impracticable.
Mr. ADDERLEY thought that some great effort was re-
quired to meet the want of education in the country. He had
himself received a petition for presentation against the Govern-
ment grant, in which a great number of the petitioners could
not sign their names, but had to make a cross. This showed
the state of education which prevailed, though they had peti-
tioned against its further extension. lie though the Govern-
ment plan was the best that couid be carried in the existing
eircum4ances.
Mr. HUME was at a loss to understand the last Hon. Mem-
ber. He lamented the want of education, but he seemed to
desire no measure by which that ignorance could be got rid of.
The real question was to know how the evil complained of was
to be wet. He maintained that a system -f education should
he yarded out in which secular education might be given to all,
religious education to follow.. In his own neighbourhood, in
Norfolk, there was a population of 1,200 persons who could not
read nor write ; they had no school, and were it rendered im-
perative that they should have a Church Catechism they would
ot have a school at all.—( Hear, hear.) He would support
the Hon Member for Dumfries.
Mr. PROTHEROE could not look upon the proposition of
the Government as anything other than an extension of the
voluntary principle. As he believed that the motion if agreed
to would bring the Government in conflict with religious sects
in the,coutitry, he could not support the motion of the Hon.
Member for Dumfries.
Alter a few words from Mr. W. M ART YN, which were
inaudible in the gallery,
Sir W. CLAY said though his
vote f own motion had been re-
jected, he should certainly or the motion of his Hon.
Friend the Member for Dumfries if he pressed it. He thought,
however, after what the Government had stated, it would be
best to withdraw it for the
Mr. P. HOWARD would vote for the motion if pressed,
only he agreed with the last Member who spoke, that it would
be better not to press it.
Alter a few words from Lord HARRY VANE,
111 r. EW ART said, after the general expression of opinion
by the House, he would consent to withdraw the motion.
The motion was then withdrawn.
Sir G. CLELIK raid that he had heard with regret that the
Noble Lord had no intention to apply any of the grant to the
parochial schoolmasters of Scotland. The only reason assigned
was, that already there was a legal provision. Now, if that were
so, it ought to be an efficient provision, or raised to te so, and if
that were so, there ought to be some allowance out of the grant.
The Noble Lord said that he could not agree to give any part
of this grant to the schoolmasters of Scotland, as the grant was
intended to be only in aid of voluntary efforts. But. on what
ground was it, that, after a sufficient service, retiring pensions
were: obe denied to the parochial schoolmasters ? Yet it ap-
peared that the parochial schools were to be subject to the
supervision of the Government inspector, and therefore there
was no reason whatever to deny them the advantage of those re-
tiring pensions. The principle of the retiring pension in no way
interfered with this matter, for the schoolmasters were to be
enabled to receive pupils, which, by the grant, they were au-
thorised to receive; and he trusted, therefore, that in framing
the minutes, sufficient attention would be paid to this particu-
lar point.