The Sun.
London, England, 1840-07-11 00:00:00

he stifficieet to adjudicate on those questions. He objected
to dealing with the subject by resolution; if any alteration
was requires', the only effectual way of accomplishing. that
object was by altering the law. He should decidedlyvote—
ag,inst the resolution.
Mr. AGLIONBY, after all that i e had heard from
the Right Hon. Barone!, the Noble Lord, and the Crider
Secretary State for the Home Department, was coo.
firmed in the opinion that it was his duty to vote for the
resolution of the Hon. Member fer Finsbury.—( Hear.)
The Hon. Member then referred to the rules and regula-
tions of the Warwick gaol, and contended that they were
not only a disgrace to the laws of our country, but that
they esc'ted sympathy in favour of offenders. The
Right Hon. Baron©t said " alter the law," and it bad been
propef ed to do so in that House, but had been rejected in
another place. Was it a new precedent to refer
to that House in cases of this description ? No-
thing was more common, and these complaints
had been entertained at all times, and gene-
rally referred to a Scicct Committee. With
respect to sympathy he begged to repudiate the supposi-
tion that in voting for this motion he had any sympathy
whatever with persons guilty of sedition or other political
offences.—( Hear, hear.) One great evil of the preseht
system was the multiplicity of Acts, and the extreme un-
certainty of the las—( Hear, hear)—and though it was
supposed it was understood in that House, he doubted
whether there were many Hon. Gentlemen who did really
onderstand it.—( Hear, bear.) The Noble Lord had
somewhat rnistated the fact, and had been cheered in do-
ing so with respect to the imprisonment of Mr. Fear-
gus O'Connor, who had himself stated in his
first petition, that he was placed with other prisoners
at his own request, and had not complained of tbis,;a3 he
was represented to have done.—( Hear, hear.) It was to
be remarked, with reference to the various statements that
had been received, that the statements of the prisoners
were received with great suspicion, while those of the
Visiting Magistrates were immediately adopted as correct.
The Right Hon, Baronet had not stated in his speech, and
he begged to call his attention to the fact, that he ap-
proved of the treatment as felons of persons convictel
of political offences. He voted for the motion, and not
upoa technical details, thinking that no person convicted
of a political offence should be treated as a felon. _ _

Mr. C. BUL LER rose amid loud cries for a division.
He would detain the House but a few minutes. He
begged to call attention to the fact that the persons whose
cases were then before the House were guilty of those
offences which had ever been designated as political.
Their cases were the same in principle as those of Sir
P. Burdett, Leigh Hunt, Mr. Cobbett, and others, who
were never treated as felons, employed in degrading occu-
pations, fed on felons' fare, made to be their own tailors, or
to suffer the illegal punishment of the itch.—(Laughter.)
He thought this was not the time to increase the severity
of punishment for these offences, and that the doing so
would only create a feeling among the people that it was
done with reference solely to the interests of a class.-
-( Hear, hear, hear.)

Mr. HAMILTON had told the Hon. Member for
Finsbury he should support his motion, and, with all defe-
rence for the Right Hon. Baronet the leader of his side
of the House, be had heard no argument which induced
him to do otherwise. He hoped that the effect of the de-
bate would be to produce the desired alteration in
prison discipline.
Mr. WIL LIA MS rose to move that the debate should
be adjourned to Friday next.—(No, no.) He thought
the question was one of greet importance, and that as
many Hen. Gentlemen were desirous of expressing their
opinions, an opportunity should be afforded them of doing
so.—(Go on, goon.) In compliance with the wish of
the House, then, he would proceed. The Hon. Gen-
tlemen then proceeded to contrast the treatment of former
political offenders with those whose case was now
before the House. Would the Right Honourable
Baronet have suffered Sir Francis Burdett to be im-
prisoned and treated in such a manner ?—( Hear.) He
was certain that ho would not ; and, moreover, that if he
had been in power, he would not have suffered it in the
case of these persons. The question was not whether
these men had been guilty of seditious offences of greater
or less magnitude, but whether their treatment in prison
was such as it ought to have been ?—( Hear, hear.) He
thought the conduct of the Government had been highly
reprehensible, and he should therefore vote for the motion
of the Hon. Member for Finsbury.—( Hear, hear.)
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said no one regretted
more that he did any unnecessary harshness that m;ght have,
been shown to those convicted in the recent prosecutions,
He believed that when such cases were brought before the
consideration of the Government, they had been corrected
as soon as the information had been received; but when he
found attempts made to excite sympathy in favour of those
convicted by exclaiming against the new hardships of in-
stituting these convictions, he felt it his duty to enter his
protest against it. In former times political offences were
understood to be attacks upon the Minister of the day.
Whatever gave offence to the feelings of individuals was
a libel, and the Attorney-Generals of former times used
to file informations ex officio for such publications as
libels. He was not then going to enter into an invidious
distinction between the present and past Governments,
but the prosecutions for what were now called political
offences, wore fur direct incitements to crime. He had
Lad the honour of being Attorney-General longer than
any individual during the present century, yet he had filed
only one ex-officio information for a libel, and in con-
ducting that prosecution he had told the jury that unless
they believed the defendant's intention was to incife to itiL
surrection and plunder it would be their duty to acquit
him.—( Hear, hear.) That question was put by the Judge
to the jury, who, without hesitation, found a verdict of
guilty. Now, he said the individual thus found guilty
ought not to be treated with unnecessary harshness, but
was this person to be considered as guilty only of what was
called a political offence, and to have the sympathies of man-
kind called forth in his favour as one who was persecuted
and oppressed ?—( Hear, hear.) He was engaged in pro-
secutions at Newport, Bradford, and Sheffield, in which
the prisoners were convicted, and were now under-
going the sentences of transportation or imprison-
ment. Mr. Feargus O'Connor boasted that he had not
appeared in any of those transactions, but he (the Attorney-
General) said that the publication of that which had a
direct tendency, and with the intention to excite to crime,
was one equal to that of which those persons had been con-
victed. 1 his was the only ex officio information he had
filed. He had presented Bills to the grand juries, and it
was owing to these and the petty juries having done their
duty, wad taken a different view of the case to some Hon.
Gentlemen, that the peace of the country had been pre-
served.—( Hear.) He thought it his duty to protest against
exciting sympathy in favour of those who had violated the
law and committed offences which the safety of the country
required should be visited with severe punishment.
Mr. MU NTZ said some Hon. Members had expressed
surprise that he had taken no part in the debate, but at
the period the disturbances which had been adverted to
occurred ha Birmingham he was 200 miles distant from
that place, and all he knew on the subject was from hear-
say. But with respect to the motion before the house,
whether the blame—for there was blame somewhere--
attached to the Government or to the Magistrates was the
same thing to him, an,./ to Lovett and Collins, and as the
resolution only stated that blame attached to some one, he
should support it. —( Hear, hear.)
Mr. T. D UNCO MB E rose to explain, with reference
to the petition which he had presented, and to which
allthion had been made. Vincent wrote to him, informing
him of the hardship he endured from the severity of the
prison discipline, and added " If you thick that a petition
would have any effect, and will make it known to us by
letter, we will immediately forward one for presentation,"
whereupon he (Mr. D.) wrote him—" I have received
your letter, and think the best thing you can do will be
for each to send me a petition, setting for all the circum-
stances connected with his case, taking care that the al-
logations arc short and clear, and above all, that every
fact touching your treatment is rather under than over-
stated, and I will again to call the attention of the
House to the subject."—( Hear, hear.) There was,
therefore, no ground for saying be sought the
petitions, for the petitions sought him, and he felt it his
dety to present them, as he now did, to take the sense of
the House on the motion.—( Hcar, hear.)
After a few words from Mr. F. MA ULE, which were
inaudible, strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the
House divided, when there appeared—

the motion to rzo into Committee of Supp:y 117
For Mr. Duncombe's amendment
against Mr. Duncornbe's amendment —BB

The (;oin:.flittee of Supply was pos►poned till McndayvV
The Report on the Poor-law Commission Bill was
brought up, and that Bill wha ordered to be read a third
time on Thursday.

The Turnrike Trusts Bill was read a second time, and
ordt red to he committed on Monday.
The Population ( Ireland) Bill wLs read a second time,
and ord, r d to be committed.

Loid JOHN RUSSELL, in answer to a question from
Sir R. Peel, said that it was not his intention to proceed
with the New South \Vales Gavernment Bid during the
prrst•nt Session.
On the motion of Lord JOHN RUSSELL, it was
ordered that the House at its rising should adjourn to
Monday.
The East India Mutiny Bill went through Committee,
and tl.e Report was ordered to be read on Monday.
The Prisons (Ireland) Bill was read a second time, and
ordered to he committed on Monday.
The Report on the Clergy Reserves Canada Bill was
brought up.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ob-
tained leave to bring in a Bill to continue the Joint Stock
Banking Act for a period of t:vo years.
The other o:ders of the Day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at Half-past Two o'Clock.