The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-17 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

110 USE OF COMMONS, FER 16.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour.
Mr. MORGAN took the oaths and his seat as Memler
for Monmouthshire. The lion. Member was introduced
by Mr. Baillie and Lord Granville Somerset.
Mr. ANTROBUS took the oaths and his scat as
Member
fur East Surrey.
r. LIDDELL presented a petition from certain
M
for an alteration in
mariners of the River Tyne, praying
the distribution of the Merchant Seamen's I'und.
Mr. INGHAM presented a similar petition from about
3,000 seamen of the port of Tyne.
Mr. DAVID ROCIIE presented a petition from a pa-
rish in Limerick in favour of Medical Reform
from various
,
Sir R. 11. INGLIS presented petitions
parishes in Berkshire, Bedfordshire, and Wiltshire, pray-
ing for additional Church accommodn
from ation
the Hull and
.
Mr. HUTT presented a' petitio
complaining of the manner of
Selby Railway Company,
levying taxation on railways.
Mr. CO LQIIIIOUN presented a petition from the
East India Association in Clasgow, complaining that the
grievances with regard to their trade with Java had nut
been redressed, and that the grievances on the ' hubject
of their trade with Jamaica had been increased.
Lord
of the
Lord It. GROSVENOR presented a petition,
orofucslyhessigtenre,di,af from
favour
the o
flltliai
ey Mayor
Billn n dfoirn inhabitants
periodof
be for
mune.
ants. of the city
Sir IL PEEL presented a petition
punishment of death.
from. Braintree, is
appointment of the
Essex, praying that the
Poor-law Commissioners might
The petitioners ali.ci complained for a limited period.
chil-
dren from their parents in the o f the separation of
Union workhouses.

EVENING EDITION

Mr. FOX MAU LE presented petitions from various
parishes in Perthshire, praying for the abolition of Church
Patronage in Scotland.
Mr. MILES presented a petition from Horsington, in
Somersetshire, in favour of Church Extension.
Mr. HUME presented a petition from Cionrush, in the
county of Galway, against Lord Stanley's, and in favour
of Lord Morpeth's, Irish Registration Bill.
Mr. MUNTZ gave notice that in the Committee on the
Medical Bill he should move that all prescriptions be
written in English and at full length—(Laughter)—and
that all labels in druggists' shops should be written in the
same manner.

DANISH CLAIMS
Mr. CRE SSWE L L rose, pursuant to the notice he
had given, to move that this House will, upon Tuesday,
the 23d day of this instant February, resolve itself into a
Committee of the whole House, to consider of the fol-
lowing Address to her Majesty, that is to say, that an
humble Address be presented to her Majesty, praying that
her Majesty will be graciously pleased to take into conside-
tion the Report, bearing date 12th May, 1840, made by
the Commissioners to whom it was referred to examine
and adjudicate upon the claims of certain British subjects,
for losses sustained by the seizare and confiscation of their
ships and cargoes by the G3vernment of Denmark in tho
year 1807, and that her Majesty will be graciously pleased
to advance to such claimants the amount of their respec-
tive losses as ascertained by the said Commissioners, and to
assure her Majesty that this House will make good the same.
The Hon. and Learned Member briefly a;lud,2d to the
facts of the case, and to the classes of claimants—those.

who had ships and goods, and thme who had goods ashore
and book debts. He had hitherto been opposed by the
Government; but he would net then enter into the merits

of the question. If, however, he should hear any nevi
arguments urged against the motion, he should use his
privilege of replying to them,
Mr. HUTT said-1 rise for the purpose of seconding
this motion. It has been with feelings of regret that 1

have for some time observed the Right Hon. Gentleman
tha Chancellor of the Exchequer give to this subject the

same opposition as his predecessors, and adopt all the ex
parte considerations by which they were influenced. From the
straightforward, manly character of my Right Hon. Friend,
I would have imagined that he would not interpose his au-
thority to prevent the compensation justly due to those
claimants. With every feeling of respect, I must say,
that I believe the Right Honourable Gentleman does
not understand the merits of this use. When this British

property was seized by the Danish Government the Bri-
tish Government had seized upwards of 1,300,0001. worth

of Danish property, without providing any protection
for British merchants. That property was always
represented and understood to be intended as a fund
nom which compensaticn should he 'given to the British
merchants who were sufferers by the course pursued by
our Government. These persons have constantly since
that time down to the present period, pressed their claims.
The House of Commons has order:,d payment to be made
to two classes of claimants—to those who had claims for

book debts, and to those who had their goods seized in the
ports. NON there is a third party who have had ships
and cargoes seized at sea by Danish ships. I cannot see
how the Right Hon. Gentleman can oppose himself to
these applications. The judgment of the House has been
. .

on two several occasions pronounced i❑ their favour; and
I am sure, Sir, that it does not become the character of
this House, to do that which would be considered mon-

streus in a Court of Justice—to reverse the decision which

iL has twice pronounced, when there are no new facts b,
which its judgment can be influenced. I cannot think
the House will do so; still less can I think that the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth,Jvho has ever
shown the greatest regard for maintaining the character
and consistency of the House, would recommend such a
course. For my covn part, I must say, thaVhaving advo-
cated those claims for nine years, it is with feelings of in-

dignation I am compelled to come forward on this occa-
sion. A large sum of money was obtained previous to
the war at the sacrifice of British property. Surely no
one will pretend that the object was to plunder the owners?
—( Hear.) I hope the House will do them fair and honour-
able justice.—( Hear, and a laugh.) They ought to be
paid not only the principal, but I am quite sure that there
claimants whose case has been so improperly delayed,
ought to receive compensation for that delay.—( Hear.)
I will not further trouble the House on this occasion ; but
I will say that this is not a party question. The House
has twice declared itself in favour of these claims; and I
trust it will not now reverse its decision.—( Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was
sorry, after what the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had
said, to announce that he should not only follow the course
of his predecessor upon this question, but was fully pre-
pared to appeal for support and approbation to the
House, and even to the country at large.—(Cheers from
the Tory benches.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
was an old advocate, and he broneht to hear upon this
question his habitual adroitness. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman always put this question as between the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer and the claimants. That was a
most adroit way of putting the question certainly ; but the
real question was, were they justified in calling upon the
people of England to pay those claims. Were they justi-
fied in taking the money out of the pockets of other people
to put it into the pockets of these respectable persons re-
siding in Liverpool ? From the best consideration he had
been able to give the subject, he was of opinion that they
had no right to call upon the public to do so. The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman, and the Hon. Gentleman who
had followed him, had carefully avoided all allusion to that
portion of the question. He had alluded to the decision
which the House had already made. He admitted that
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had had one decision in
his favour ; but the first decision which had been come to,
and been come to by the very Parliament which had
directed the other classes of claims to be paid, had been
against the claims which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
was then advocating. ,}accordance with the expressed
opinion of the Reformed-House of Commons Lord Spencer
had given way, and admitted the claims of the two first
classes of claimants, which claims had been paid. The
very claims which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was
now advocating had been submitted to them, and they had
refused to admit them. It was remarkable also that S;r
James Mackintosh, who was the first who had brought the
subject of the Danish claims before Parliament, had in his
speech on that occasion only alluded to those claims which
were already settled. Time were the only claims which
he thought the country called.on to pay. In that speech
he had stated that there were certain acts which the Danish
Government had committed contrary to the laws of war
and the laws of nations; by those acts British subjects
bad suffered wrong. The English Government, at the
making of peace, had a right to call upon the Danish Go.
vernment for compensation for these wrongs. They had,
however, neglected for some reason or other to do so,
and he had argued that, in consequence of having thus ne-
glected their duty, which was to enforce these claims as
against the Danish Government, they had taken upon
themselves the duty of compensating the English
subjects, who ought to have been compensated
by the Danish Government. That the claims
now brought forward by the Learned Gentle-
man had never entered into the contemplation of Sir James
Mackintosh, appeared still more clearly from the calcula-
tions which he had made on the subject. On that occa-
sion, Sir James I.lackintosh had stated that the outstanding
claims amounted to about 200,0001., but that they had
been reduced by various circumstances to about 100,000/.
Now the Government had already paid 284,0001. on ac-
count of those claims, and here was another class of claims
now brought forward, amounting to an additional quarter
of a million. It was obvious that there was a great dis-
tinction between these claims and those which had already

been paid. Danmark was bound to pay the other classes
of claimants ; she might have been compelled to do so.
Now there was no doubt that, according to the laws of
war and the laws of nations, Denmark was perfectly justi-
fied in confiscating the property in question. She was per..
fcctly justified in making this seizure; consequently no
claim could be brought against Denmark, and no
claim could be made against her for compensa-
tion. Therefore, the grounds on which the former
claims had been voted did not exist in the pre-
sent instance. The following argument had also been
attempted to be raised in support of those claims. It was
stated that we having received a large sum of money for
seizures taken from Denmark were bound t 6 give compen-
sation to these claimants. He knew not on what ground
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman assumed that they were
in possession of that sum of money. As far as he could
ascertain, after the expenses of the captors and of adjudi-
cation had been liquidated, and the other expenses had boon
paid, the sum remaining had, if not the whole at least, by
far the large portion cf it, had been already paid for those
Danish claims which Parliament had already voted. The
payment of those claims had, us nearly as possible, eaten
up the whole of the money received as the produce of
those seizures. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had
contended that those claims ought to be satisfied out of the
droits of the Crown, but as ho had before stated, the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman was mistaken if he supposed that
afer paying he expenses of the cators an the ament
oft the claimst already liquidated, there was and y surplus re.

maining.
Mr. CRESSWELL here expressed his dissent.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER__
Would the Hon. and Learned Gentleman put it upon
that footincr? He could assure the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman that after paying e.iptions, arid expenses,
and
it would be found that there was scarcely any
certainly nothing like the amount of
othersurplus
o claims,
rlemosr
100,00 Hon. Gentleman seemed
The Hon. and Learned
to imagine. Gentleman had not
remaining,
, as the
ra fi ec tadmittedouse btylia any
tniyf
gone very fully into the subject ; and he (the Chancellor
oicfntgliteheEnxleoqbuseerr%)awticeunls. H
d note detain
y the
House
the claim were founded on justice the amount of the claim
activeG e ntl c netacnnv
atshse re
whichw ho
hwee r
ke
nue ilivd eiri a e
been influence
c:
ought not to be taken into account. But if there were
carried doof n t,
he
warned them that the case was not a trilling one, and that
which happened once might happen again. He thought
it necessary to caution them that they would not be vot-
ing a quarter of a million, but a million in full. There
were five cases of the same nature iu which he believed
similar claims would be put forward, and he would tell
them that they knew not what might happen if they once
opened their doors to such applications. It was sup.
posed that the Danish claimants were the only claimants
of the kind ; but if the House should grant the
motion of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman
they would have similar claims submitted to them on the
part of the Spanish Governments for the amount of
60,600/. The more they admitted such a principle the
more would parties endeavour to avail themselves of it.
If they let in nue end of the wedge the rest would be
to follow, and they would find that the annual ex-
pense claims would form a very largo
it
public expenditure. The Hon. and Learned
tmse in in
the meeting
such
Gentleman had urged the claim then under their conside-
ration, at a very unusual time—before they had voted
any of the supplies on the estimates for the Army, the
other public expenses. But let them look to
nature of the claim itself. He found that there were
out of the million about 55,000/. paid to Insurance offices.
Now he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not sec
tNheav y, or
why the underwriters should come and recompense them-
selves out of the taxes of the country, which they were to
put into their own pockets, because they must have been

EVENING EDITION

remunerated in other ways for the risk they had run. But
why did not the underwriters pay the parties ? If they ran
the risks of war they were liable to the payment ; and i
he would ask why they did not make t ? They risk they ran
was one which they willingly incurrred, and they ought
not look to the nation for the money which became so due.
lie did not think he need detain the house any further,
hut he would again state to the House that it they con-
sented to pass that vote they would agree to a resolution
which included a large sum of money to parties who had
already received a quarter of a million, and they would at
the same time agree to a principle the extent and termi-
nation of which no man in that House could determine.—
( Hear, hear.)
Sir WALTER JAMES, who rose amidst cries of
Divide," said that he would not detain the House long.
He hoped that in taking the subject into consideration they
would argue it on its own merits, and would not be misled
by those arguments foreign to the question, which the'
Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had introduced in his speech. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man stated that the amount of these claims was extremely
large, and evidently endeavoured to make an impression
on the House by representing them as such. These
claims had undergone a most rigorous investigation, and
the House would perhaps be surprised to hear that the
amount of the debts amounted to no more than 225,0001.
Perhaps it might be urged that the time for bring-
ing forward the motion was not well chosen
inasmuch as a large deficiency had been experienced in
the public revenue for the last two or three years. But
he would submit to the House that that was no t.eison
whatever for rejecting claims founded substantially on
justice aid on equity. The Right Hon. Gentleman said
that the payments which had been made into the Treasury,
and the money seized, were entirely eaten up by the sums
paid to former claimants. But it should be remembered,
that the country would have been obliged to have gone to
other purses if it had not received a large sum from the
Danish Government. The Right Hon. Gentleman had
said that the period chosen for the motion was an ex-
tremely inconvenient one, and that it was really too bad
that it should be brought forward before any of the public
estimates were voted. He could not help complimenting
his Hon. Friend on the period at which he had thought
proper to bring forward this motion. It was an excellent
opportunity for the House to put in practice the maxim,
" Be just before you are generous"—(" Hear, hear," from
Colonel Sibthorp)—to practice that economy it was
ever so ready to profess. It appeared to him that these
parties had an unanswerable claim upom the House on ac-
count of the two votes they had come to last year ; on the
24th May, 1838, and 18th June, 1839.—(Hear, hear.)
Let the House only consider the expense to which .they
had put these parties. They had been put to all the ex-
pense of investigation, and it would be hard if this measure,
which had proved the justice of their claims, was to be
made only an aggravation of injustice. Seeing the impa-
tience of the House he would not trouble them with some
further remarks he had intended to make, but he hoped
the House would support his Hon. Friend on the motion
he had made, because he was satisfied of the justice of the
claim itself, and because he thought that it would be con.
sistent with the honour, dignity, and character of the
House, having admitted the principle, not to recede from
carrying it into effect.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. HAVES said he confessed his opinion was pre-
cisely the same as the Hon. Gentleman's. He (Mr. 11
Hawes) also had constituents who were interested in this 11
question, and he had to satisfy one part of those if he voted,
as be should, for the payment of these claims; and all he
should say to them was, that the claim was a just one.—
( Hear, hear.) He was not at all intimidated by the pros-
pect of being called to account at some future day
to which the Honourable Gentleman had alluded,
and which remark he (Mr. Hawes) thought had
been improperly thrown out, to disturb their judgment.--
(Hear, hear.) There were three classes of claimants,
two of whom were paid—those which were founded on
book debts, and those which were founded on property on
shore, bad been paid. Ho thought if there was any pro-
perty more protected than another, it would have been
that which was classed as property on shore and book
debts. The only property respecting the claim of which
there could be any doubt by the law of nations, was that
which the Right Hon. Gentleman hesitated to pay. Ile
(Mr. Hawes) asked him to point out any difference what-
ever between these classes. lid (Mr. Hawes) had lis-
tened to him attentively to hear of any difference, and
had heard of none. He had heard nothing laid down in
justice or principle, to deter him ( Mr. Hawes) from giving
his vote in favour of these claims.—( Hear, hear.) It had
been twice argued, and on a former occasion means had
been resorted to to postpone its payment, which he did not '
think consistent with the honour of any Government to
pursue. When, on the 24th May, 1838, a motion for
this purpose was carried by a majority of thirty-four, in-
stead of complying with the vote, the Chancellor of the
Exchequer directed the amount of the claim should be
scheduled, but not examined. Now, the House had then
heard the wholt claim argued, and had come to a deci-
sion upon it, and he ( Mr. Hawes) had yet to learn the
propriety of any Minister afterwards opposing the pay-
ment. If there had been any doubt upon the subject, the
Chancellor of the Exchequer would have been right in
opposing the claim to the utmost, but he (Mr. Hawes)
believed the claim to be a just claim. Two classes out of
the three had been satisfied by the Government, and he
should undoubtedly continue to vote for the payment of the
other.—( Hear, hear.)
Alderman THOMPSON, who was but very indistinctly
beard in the gallery from the great noise in the body of
the House, said (as we understood), with respect to In-
surance Offices, when they insured property they received
premiums according to the risk which they underwent.
He would join issue with the Right Hon. Gentleman op-
posite as to the very grounds on which these claims were
opposed—because those ships' cargoes were insured, the
claim ought to be refused. Now four or five times the
amount of premium would have been charged had the case
which took place been contemplated, and therefore the
Right Hon. Gentleman's argument would not stand. He
(Mi. Alderman Thompson) conceived that when the
House, by a majority of three to one, in the year 1839,
directed that the Commissioners should proceed and ad-
judicate on the claims, it substantially decided that those
claims ought to be paid, and were just.—( Hear, bear.)
Notwithstanding the difficulties which the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman had thought fit to say he would con-
tinue to throw in the way of the payment of these claims,
be (Mr. Alderman Thompson) must say that he ought not
to represent that this was a question between the House of
Commons and tho merchants of Liverpool. Now it was
a question that concerned all the traders cf the kingdom.
—( Hear.) The question to be decided was whether the
merchants and shipowners of England should have justice
done to them by the payment of 230,000/, or not. He
would certainly give his most strenuous support to the
measure.

Mr. WHITE said the notion of the Right lion, the
Chancellor of the Exchequer was that if these claims were
admitted, other similar ones would be brought forward on
future occasions ; Out he contended that every claim
should stand upon its own foundation, and he believed that
the present one was founded in justice.
Sir C. GREY wished to state on what principles and
grounds those who voted in support of these claims founded
this opinion. He was also anxious that it should not be
suppposcd, in voting for the present motion, that he
should fall into the error of pledging himself, or commit.
ting himself, to a similar vote on future occasions. The
two first classes :of claimants, of book debts and
property on shore, had been allowed compensation on the
ground that the confiscation of their property was con-
trary to the law of nations. The Gov rnment had in
these cases recognized the right of the claimants to re-
dress ; and the House should recollect that the war was
begun in a manner different from that of any other war.
It was not the case of an embargo. England had come
forward acknowledging she had no cause for making war
against Denmark, but understanding that there was a
design to seize the Danish fleet by their most deadly
enemy, it was thought proper to put it in safe keep-
ing, and the Danish fleet was accordingly seized.
The whole question turned upon this pivot, whether under
such circumstances, the Danish Government having made
war upon this country, the British Government was justi-
fied in applying so large a portion of Danish property to
the purposes of revenue.—( Loud cries of " Divide, di-
vide.") Twelve hundred thousand pounds were so ap-
plied.—( Divide, divide.) That was the ground upon
which this question turned.—(Divide, divide.) He
thought the sufferers in this case had a right to have their
losses made good, out of the proceeds of the vessels scizA
under such peculiar circumstances.—(Renewed cries of
" Divide, divide.")
Lord JOHN RUSSELL did not deny what had been
stated by his Hon. Friend, the Member for Lambeth,
that there was a great difference between the case now
before the House, and those other two in which compen-
sation had been given. But he thought his Honourable
Friend had signally failed in making out a reason for vot-
ing for this motion. The Honourable Gentleman had
said that, with respect to the book debts and the goods
seized on shore, these did not come under the class of or-
dinary seizures in time of war; and that the Government
had therefore tither of two courses to choose—either to
call on Denmark to make reparation, or to do so itself.
But his Hon. Friend admitted that the present case was
different from those. This was a case of ordinary capture
in time of war. It had been stated by the lion. Alder-
man the Member for Sunderland, and the Hon. Member
for Hull, that in all cases like the present, when the Go-
vernment had not made a public declaration of war, or
given notice to the insurers, of the approach of war, the
public money ought to be paid in compensation. Could
anything be more dangerous than this ? There might be
a great expedition preparing in the ports of another
country to invade this ; and it might be necessary to take
steps to prevent the invasion. Would it be contended
that the Government was to give notice of the preparations
which it thought necessary to make, for intercepting
the armament before it reached our shores ?—( Hear.)
It was said that the sum now claimed was a very mode-
rate one—no doubt it was so, but if they consented to
pay one quarter of a million they would be setting a pre-
cedent which would entail upon them claims to a much
greater extent. It was said by the lion. Baronet that
Denmark was much irritated—no doubt she was, and he
thought she had much reason to be so. Her capital had
been bombarded—she was a great sufferer, so that, in fact,
she was very naturally much irritated, and he (Lord John
Russell) did not think it was either rashness or showed any
want of prudence in her going to war with the country
which had done her so much damage.—(Laughter.) His
Hon. Friend said they would bo perfectly safe in paying
the present claims, because they would never again
meet with such a case. He could tell his Hon. Friend he was
much mistaken, for we might perfectly expect that we might
yet be thrown into war with other countries, and if the House
allowed themselves to be bound to refund anything but that
which was lost by anything done against the law of nations,
or the rules of just war, they would open a door to most extra-
vagant claims—if they acknowledged the present claims they
would go much beyond anything which had ever been done
before. He felt bound to go much further, and say, that they
were not hound to indemnify any particular classes. If it was
necessary for the security of this country—of the whole com-
munity—if they should in certain cases be obliged to step out
of the usual usages of war, the whole community had the be-
nefit of the act—the shipowners of Hull, Sunderland, and Li-
verpool had the benefit of it, and they had no right to come
forward as individual claimants, and say they had the benefit of
the general protection of their country, but their country
could not vindicate its honour without their claiming to the
very last farthing for any losses sustained by them in
consequence of a due prosecution of a necessary war, and one
carried on strictly according to the law of nations. If the
House of Commons persisted in acknowledging such dahlia as
those now brought forward by the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man, they would recognise claims for which no precedent was
to be found in past history ; but if the motion of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman were to be agreed to, many would be found
in our future history.
Mr. CRESSWELL rose to reply. The Hon. Gentlemen
said, that, notwithstanding what had been said by the Right
Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he was
sure the House would go along with him in saying that there
was nothing improper in the feeling which had brought
him forward. (Hear, hear, hear.) Unless he had
been urged to it by his constituents, he would
never have brought before the House a question of that nature,
and he trusted that Hon. Gentleman would think that he was
justified in speaking on behalf of certain firms in Liverpool.
He would say one word or two with regard to the time at
which he had brought forward the question. The Right Hon.
Gentleman, like many other persons who had disagreeable
things to encounter, was never pleased with the time which
was chosen for this discussion. If he (Mr. Cressvvell) came
late in the session all imaginable objections were made ; he was
told that there was no money for him, and that he should not
have delayed his motion to so late a period. If he came early,
he was met with the objection that there was no money in the
Exchequer, and asked why he had come so soon. Now, be
thought the best plan was to bring it forward at an early period
of the Session when he could expect a full; House. At this
season of the year he would expect a large House, and he
hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would be satisfied with the
numbers on that occasion. He could not help remarking, in
reference to the speech of the Noble Lord, how
very prone they were to deal with that portion
of a Member's argument, which exactly coincided with
their own. The Noble Lord approved of that part of the
speech of the Hon. Gentleman which favoured his own case,
but he disapproved of the others, which opposed it. His (Mr.
Cresswell'a) opinion upon this subject was still that which he
had expressed when he first brought the subject before the
House. He, for one, could never understand that they had
any right to call upon Denmark to make compensation for the
book debts and the goods on shore. He never could under-
stand what pretence they had for such demands. Was there
any complaint against Denmark ? Had she committed any
wrong against this country? Had we asked for redress for
any wrong or injury which we had suffered? No. But, not-
withstanding that they had no such complaints to make, they
had laid an embargo upon the ships of that country ; they had
sent out cruisers to capture her vessels wherever they could
find them ; they had sent out powerful armaments to slaughter
her subjects and to seize her Sleet ; and they now said, that
because they had taken their book debts, they should continue
to suffer. This was not a case of war. He totally denied
that it was a case of war, and he hoped that this would never
be made a precedent for other cases ; that the country would
never be in the same straits again, and therefore would not
be induced to resort to similar practices. What was their own
statement to the Danes, at the time that this expedition was
undertaken 7 What was the proclamation made ? Why, that
they came to their shores not as enemies, but in the way of
self defence. Was there any war at that time? Was it con-
sirtent with the notion of a state of war? If it was a state of
war, and it took place according to the ordinary usages of na-
tions, why was that State paper put forward in 18:37 to justify
these proceedings ? Did the Government attempt to justify its
proceedings upon the ground of war? No such thing. lie
trusted, therefore, that, under all the circumstances, the House
would vote, as it had voted, for the compensation of the Dan-
ish claimants.

Mr. O'CONNELL was fully convinced that the claim
was a just one, and ought to be paid. Indeed the case
was a good deal stronger than the Learned Alderman had
put it, because, in the first place, the insurers never could
have contemplated the risk, although the general words of
the policy covered that defect. He really was surprised at
the opposition that had been given to the motion. For a num-
ber of years the entire claims were contested, and then a
part was conceded on the ground that the seizure of debts
was against all international law—the seizure of goods on
shore was resisted in like manner ; but the House decided
that the Government tught to pay them, and did make it
pay them. Now, in the present case, the shippers of
cargoes were informed at the Admiralty that no war
whatever was in contemplation against Denmark, and it
might be said that the Government actually induced them
to send out their cargoes, and yet that claim, in spite cf
the repeated decisions of Parliament, the Government
now resisted. Economy was certainly an excellent virtue
in a Government, and one which ought to be in all cases
practiced, but economy was one thing, and common
honesty another.—( Cheers.) It was said there was no
war whatever with Denmark, but there was something
very like it in practice, and something very advantsgcous
to those who got the Droits of the Admiralty, to the
amount of 1,300,0001., and out of which ample compen-
sation might be made to the merchants whom they de-
ceived into sending out their cargoes. The Government
had thought fit to make a present of the Droits of the Ad-
miralty for the purpose of making improvements at Wind-
sor. They deceived the British merchants, when they
sent out their cargoes, on the ground that there was no
apprehension of a violation of the peace, and now, in
spite of the repeated decisions of the [louse, the Govern-
ment hesitated in refusing these parties redress. He
hoped, however, that the vote of that night would put an
end to the matter.—( Loud cheering.)
Mr. INGHAM wished to make a few remarks to the
House, in order to show why he thought the argument of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought not to weigh much
with the House. He considered that the objections of the
Itght Hon. Gentleman did not apply to the case be-
fore them. Tho House had on two occasions solemnly
sanctioned the motion of his Hon. and Learnel Friend,
and it was shariieful now it they had not the moral cour-
age to put the parties in the way of getting satisfaction
for their claims. The Right Hon. Gentleman did not
deny that the decision of the House had been in their
favour, but his objection was, that he himself had taken
a different view of the case. He thought it most unjust
in the Right Hon. Gentleman to withhold his assistance
from the parties in obtaining their money. The Right
Hon. Gentleman had relied upen the first division, in
1836, when the majority was against the claims; but the
Right lion. Gentleman did not state what the amount of
the majority was, or what were the numbers in the House.
He knew that discussion had taken place at the close of
the Session, when there were not one hundred Mem-
bers in town—( Hear, hear)—and when the majority
did not exceed eight. Now it was perfectly well known
that the greater number of the Members attending the
House at the close of the Session were the friends of Mi-
nisters, and it was therefore impossible to suppose that such a
decision would at all weigh against the decisions which the
House had twice come to since. On those grounds he
would give his strenuous support to the motion of the
Hon. and Learned Member.

Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the ilolite
divided, when there appeared—

For the Motion.
Against it
Majority in favour of the Motion
The announcement was received with great cheering.
EXECUTION OF CRIMINALS.

Mr. RICH then rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill to
prohibit the public execution of criminals, and to provide for
their execution within the gaols in which they may be confined
be fore duly appointed authorities, and a limited number of
witnesses. The Hon. Member stated thit he was actuated by
a desire to do away with what appeared to him to be a barba-
rous practice, and he proposed to keep clear of the abolition of
unishment of death, and the mitigation of our Criminal Code.
Hitherto all our puldie executions had partaken of the charac-
ter of public exhibitions, and nothing could be inure revolting
than the exhibition of torture, or at the same time more useless,
This was proved by reference to our history. At the Restora-
tion the head of Charles If. was not deemed to be secure until
the embowelment of the regicides. In like manner, it was
supposed there could be no safety for the Hanoverian Lundy
unless similar barbarities were inflicted upon the Jacobites.
At a later period it was thought there would be no safety for
husbands unless Catherine Hayes was burnt alive ; and, later
in 1713, women were dragged to execution in Smithfield
and burnt alive. All Hon. Gentlemen were ready to denource
these barbarities, and to deplore the mistakes of our ancestors.
They could remember women being whipped in prison, and the
practice defended in that House. All this was now denounced,
and what was the inference? Was it nut the fair inference that
that this gradual diminution had taken place, and this extreme
rigour been abandoned, because each successive generation
found the exhibition of terror was an erroneo:.eslili.raeNtivehea--tewreror:
neous not in degree but in principle. He might be told the
present system of executions was working
the facts ? Who were the people that attended executions?, ,
Where were the fathers who sent their children—the
masters who sent their apprentices ? (Cries of
What respectable person, who had witnessed an execntion, did
not think it necessary to make some excuse for thing so?
But, perhaps, it would be said that the predominances of the
law was supported by the effect produced by public executions.
This was a curious argument, that the predominancy of the law
lay more in the exhibition of an execution than
•in the excel'.
tion itself. Thetndsbvhenoefiweeirailth?e elvvial;diistponsoetd
aonfawethothmatthtehsee
spactaeles opera
worst of thieves were the most frequent attendants at them?
What were the authorities on this subject ? The Hon. Gen-
tl eemv
.an
itrh. en
Cotton,qu o
to prove
tve
d the works
tthe
eof d Fielding,oralizingH oeffaeretth ,0 andf
publicth e
R
executions. The Hon. Member next quoted from the evidence
of Mr. Brown, the Keeper of Newgate, who stated that public
executions could have no moral effect ; and a letter from a Gee-
tleman, who, in the course of thirty years, had attended the last
moments of fifty criminals in the gaols of Bristol, Gloucester,
and Ilehester. That gentleman stated that every ono of them
had attended at least one public execution ; and most of them
had attended several. In the course of those thirty years, of
all the persons condemned to death, whom he had attended,
there were but three who had nut been present at
executions, and these three were respited. The effect
of example on the human mind was certainly very
great, but it was also very mysterious. The effect of execu-
tions, he had shown, was not to deter by example. On the
contrary, it seemed to invite to crime. The effects of imita-
tion were to lend to self-destruction and other crimes, lie re-
lated the case of a young woman, who, having been prevented
from drowning herself, was taken afterwards to the spot where
another woman had effected a similar purpose, and the body
was shown to her. In three weeks afterwards she drowned her-
self in the same place, with the same kind of clothes upon her,
with the same amount of money in her Docket ,and with a simi-
lar bunch of flowers in her breast. The lion. Gentleman
then related instances of parricide, and other crimes, having
been committed by persons immediately after witnessing the
execution of criminals for the same. " Barrington, in his life of
himself, said an ouuttiou Was the most favourable occasion for

Mr. G 0 ULLIURN did not hesitate to say that his
opinion on the subject remained unchanged. Ho was
quite ready admit that the Hon. Gentleman who had just
sat down was equally entitled to hold his former opinions
on the subject, and might very properly abide by that de-
cision to which the House had already come. He was not
influenced in his opinion by the amount of the demand if
the claim were a just one, and if it would
not be attended with fatal consequences ho would
at once say to the Government pay it ; but his
ground was that if they made that particular payment
there never would be a war hereafter, or those circum-
stances which led ultimately to a war, which would not
ultimately involve them in claims which it was impossible to
calculate, because it was impossible to calculate the ac-
tivity of the enemy's cruizers against their merchant yes.
sets. It was no uncommon case that an embargo was
laid on, and in particular circumstances that step might be
followed by a war, and if in such cases they were to make
allowance to the underwriters, or those who insured in
consequence of the warlike measures taken by the coun-
try, he repeated that there would be no end whatever to the
expenses they would he called upon to defray. He
thought such a step would strike at the best energies of
the country, and he should therefore give his vote against
the Honourable and Learned Gentleman's motion.

picking pockets, because the eyes of all were fixed upon one
object ; and at fhb time when Barrington wrote, stealing from
the person was puunished with death.—( Hear.) Ile then
read letters from several chaplains and governors of gaols, in
different parts of the country, to show the immoral effects of
public executions on the mass of the people, anti the debauchery
and crime that took place before and after such exhibitions. He
said that in London they were attended with no better effects,
and he read from the newspapers an account of the execution
of Courvoisier, in which it was stated that several per-
sons of the highest respectability and some Members
of Parliament had the good fortune to obtain standing
places in the passages through which the ciinilnal had to
pass. The papers went on to state that during the whole of
Sunday a large number of persons visited the Old Bailey,
who re-assembled in the evening, and the numbers continued
to increase till Monday morning. There were shouts, whist-
ling, jeering, and jostling during the entire time. The Globe
added that those windows which commanded a view of the drop
presented a considerable number of well-dressed ladies. The
Observer said that before 7 o'clock several noblemen and gen-
tlemen wore admitted into the prison, frith Members of Parlia-
ment, foreign Princes and Counts, who wished to see the
English mode of disposing of criminals. Mr. Sheriff Evans.
it was stated, drew a letter from his pocket and asked the pri-
soner for his autograph, while Mr. Sheriff Wheelton wept bit-
terly: The prisoner on his appearance was received with one
unanimous yell from the assembled multitude. The Observer
remarked on the indecent way in which those who had been
admitted by special orders into the gaol rushed towards the
place of execution. Thus they had Princes, Counts, and sena-
tors running on Sunday morning, nominally to hear the con-
demned sermon, but in reality to stare at the prisoner. On the
following morning the same parties crowded round him while
he was receiving 0:e last offices of religion; and while
his burial service was being read one Sheriff wept, and the
other very smirkingly asking him for his autograph. Who
wished that executions should be so conducted in future ?
( Hear, hear.) Could any one point out to him the benefit
which would accrue from congregating together such masses of
profligacy, vice, and idleness to witness the death of a fellow-
creature, by which it was impossible but their hearts must be
hardened? But Hon. Gentlemen might say that the mischief
which would result from a change in the law would be such as
to undermine justice itself. He should repeat that he dis-
claimed most emphatically all intention of making executions
private. He asked for publicity, but not such as that which
I now existed. He wished to constitute a formal, appropriate,
and independent assembly to witness the last solemn scene of
the law, whereby the public might be assured of its full and
exact performance, while the criminal might not be unneces-
sarily interrupted in his last moments. He proposed that all
the officers who now conduct executions should be present ,
lie proposed that the Inspector of Prisons should also be pre-
sent, and should make a special report of the whole circum-
stances of the execution to the Home-office, which report should
always be laid On the table of the House of Commons in each
following year. He adopted all the provisions now in force for
securing free access to the ministers of the faith of the culprit.
He also provided for the admission of those relations or friends of
the party who might wish to assist at the execution. That would do
away with any suspicion which might attend a more pri-
private execution. He provided also for the admission of a
certain number of gentlemen of the press, whose accoants
would have the effect of spreading the knowledge of the exe
eution far and wide. He would require the attendance of all
the convicted prisoners who might be in gaol at the time, who
should be obliged to spend the remainder of the day in thei
private cells, where they would have an opportunity of re-
flecting on the scene they had witnessed. He also provided
for the admission of a certain limited number of Magistrates,
as well as for that of a certain number of witnesses, indiscri-
criminately chosen, who on the third clay before the execution
should signify to the Governor of the gaol their desire to be
present. Whenever the number of applications should exceed
the number which could be admitted, the matter was to be
settled by drawing lots, in order to prevent any jealousy.—( A
laugh.) By this means he would secure the attendance of 40
or 50 independent witnesses. A certificate of the execution
on the part of the Governor of the gaol was to be transmitted
to the Home Office, and afterwards posted up in
the gaols and other conspicuous places in the county.
With a view to arrest the attention of the neigh-
bours, notices should also be fixed in conspicuous
places of the intended execution some time beforehand. He
would further require, in order to arrest the attention of the
people in the neighbourhood, that the officers appointed to con-
duct the execution should assemble at the Court-house, or some
other place, and proceed from thence in solemn ceremony to
the place of execution, while the parish bells tolled as they
passed. This was the substance of the resolution which he
submitted to the House. Ile thought he had provided for suffi-
cient publicity, and for the attendance of persons of all classes,
while the press and the official certificate would be a sufficient
security that an authentic account of the execution should be
given to the world. He had said nothing of the unhappy per-
son himself ; and after having intruded so long on the House,
he did not feel inclined to trespass on their attention at any
greater length ; but he would put it to the House whether it
was just to a Christian, that at his last moment an unhappy
being should be dragged forth pinioned and blindfolded, and
exhibited as a spectacle to an infuriated multitude.—(Hear,
hear.) True he might look calm, but that might be the calm-
ness of unspeakable agony—true he might appear bold, but it
might be a boldness in which every nerve was shaken. The
vision of that ocean of faces, and of that burst of execration, might
have causedhis unspeakable agony during the nights previous to his
execution; but unlike the criminal condemned to transportation,
he could not return to tell his comrades of his sufferings, and
thus produce a salutary effect on their minds. This terror also
acted very unequally, depending as it did upon the caprice of
the multitude who, after witnessing his dying agonies, retired
to the gin palaces, and, talking over what they had witnessed,
hardened one another by the observations, and perhaps pitied
the prisoner as one who, according to the slang expression, had
died game. How many who, now gone to the last bitter ac-
count, had been deterred from making a full and free confession
from the fear that, if they did so, they should be considered as
not having died game. And how many a young mind had
been debased and perverted from witnessing the apparent cool-
ness with which the punishment had been endured. He had
endeavoured to point out the mischiefs of the present system,
and to devise a remedy for those mischiefs. -( Cheers.) Thanking
the House for the patience with which they had heard him, he
should now conclude by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to
prohibit the public execution of criminals, and to provide for
the execution within the gaols in which they may be con-
fined, before duly appointed authorities, and a limited number
of witnesses.

in reduced at Rome. Tile same might he said of the best times
of Athens; and in the civilised sate of New York, executions
are at present Conducted before private parties. In Prussia
they had only done, so he believed, under the order of the Court-
These, however, are matters which he might bring before the
House on some future occasion. For the present he would
simply reserve to himself the power of proposing, at a future
time, that the subject should undergo more ample consideration
through the agency of a Committee. He was obliged to the
House for the attention which his motion had received, and
being, as he had said, to swilling to press the motion against the
inclination of the House, he would now withdraw it.
EXPORTATION OF MACHINERY.
Mr. BARNES presented petitions from the borough of
Leeds, praying for a Committee to inquire into the operation
of the existing laws affecting the exportation of machinery.
Mr. HINDLEY presented a petition from Stale)bridge
on the same subject, and to the same effect.
Mr. MARK PHILLIPS also presented a petition from
Manchester and Salford to the same effect.
Mr. MARK PHILLIPS then said, that in pursuance
of a notice which he had given, he rose to move
that a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the ope-
ration of the existing laws affecting the state of ukachinery.
The machinists of this country had for many years complained
of these laws. They stated that these laws opposed barriers to
their skill and capital, was very detrimental to their interest,
and tended greatly to check a most important branch of trade
in this country. They had petitioned tile House almost to a
man for the removal of those barriers, and the petitions which
had been presented were not merely those of the master-
manufacturers, but the men hail also joined them, believing
that their interests were identified with those of their em-
ployers. He thought it right that he should direct the
attention of the House fur a few moments to what
oast passed in Parliament with reference to the ex-
portation of machinery within the last few years.
The Committee of 1824, after a long and laborious examina-
tion, reported in favour of allowing artizans to go to any part
of the world where their services would be better rewarded, or
it might suit their convenience to go to. They did not then
report as to machinery but the House of Commons, wisely he
thought, almost immediately, and with great unanimity, passed
the Bills in accordance with the Report of the Committee,
which were introduced by his Hon. Friend the Member for
Kilkenny. The same Committee sat again in 1825, and in
that year presented a most valuable and important Report, not
altogether in favour of allowing the exportation of machinery,
but recommending it so far as it would not be positively preju-
dicial to the interests of our manufactures. lie thought the
Report so very important, that it was his intention, if the
House were kir d enough to grant him a Committee, to move
that a copy of it be put into the hands of each Member. The
lion. Gentleman then quoted largely from a speech made by
Mr. Huskisson in 1825, in order to show that he was then
greatly in favour of a free exportation of nearly all kinds of
English machinery. The lass on the subject appeared to
him to be in a very anomalous state. Many articles
of machinery might be exported upon leave obtained
from the Privy Comma upon the Report of the Board of
Trade. An Act, introduced by Mr. I'. Thomson in 1833,
showed the tools which were now prohibited for exportation by
the law. Our artizans might go to any country where their
services where wanted as they pleased. Steam engines, or
parts of them, might be exported without even an application
to the Board of Trade ; and by such an application our ma-
chinists might export freely those elementary, if he might so
speak, parts of those machines which were used roost largely in
our staple manufactures, cotton, flax, wool, and silk. The de-
mand for machinery had very greatly increased within these ten
years, as was shown by returns moved for by the Hon. Mem-
ber for Belfast. They showed, that while in 1831 the amount
of machinery exported was 60,028/.1 in 1840 it haat risen to
the enormous sum of 308,0971. On striking out Walt& and
the lonian Islands, the account stood thus in Europe :—ln
IMO the export was 19,252/. ; in 1840 it had risen to 257',1771.
lie confessed he much participated in the feelings of tht' ma-
nufacturers so long as they were placed in such an unfaysswaable
position with respect to cheaper labour of the Contine.at, by
the laws relating to food. It struck him we wore in some de-
gree too ready to place within the reach of competition those
manufactures we possess. But still he thought those partio
were entitled to inquiry. He was willing to admit there was
no individual in the House whose constituents were so much
interested in this question as his own ; yet he wished, if possi-
ble, to approach the question without bias. Fifteen years
since the machine-makers had the advantage of a Parlamentary
inquiry for this purpose, but since that time more changes had
taken place than during centuries in former times. Since that
period we had seen the perfection of almost every railway of
importance that could be named. We had seen also
the introduction and successful development of the loco-
motive principle ; but while during this period me-
chanical ingenuity was making such rapid strides in
this country, those with whom we were willing to enter
into honourable competition were now possessed of our im-
provements, and were availing themselves of them far more
than they did in the year 1825. He thought, therefore, that if
any person were inclined to ask what were his motives in asking
for the appointment of a Select Committee, they would see
ample grounds for it in the changes which had taken place. To
revert to the arguments of the machine makers, they contended,
as he believed, with great force, that at the present moment the
regulations being such as he had described, they were placed in
a very anomalous position. If, for instance, they were at any
time inclined to take out a patent for any mechanical contri-
vance they were placed in a most embarrassing position, for if
any one seeking to retain to himself the !protection of a patent,
the mode of doing so was the same on the Continent as in this
country, and he was, therefore, compelled to establish a manu-
factory on the Continent or to throw himself into the hands of
foreigners, and to receive only a portion of that return
to which his ingenuity and his exertions so justly entitled
him.—(Hear.) All the elementary portions of the four great
species of machinery to which he had alluded might be ex-
ported under the license of the Privy Council, and the ma-
chine-makers contended that when those were sent abroad cer-
tain other machinery was brought into co-operation with these
portions which led to the production of finished machinery,
and that this was the way in which much finished machinery
was supplied abroad. Again, much of it was smuggled, and it
was a fact well known to the Board of Trade, that articles were
continually shipped under false denominations. Several fla-
grant instances of this nature had lately come under his notice.
The machine-makers also stated that of late years had sprung
up an important branch of business under the denomination
of the manufacturers of tools, or of machines, by which the
work of many tools was performed. These were exported
without any permission whatever. By this means much animal
labour was saved. The quantity of tools exported from this
country within the last few years was about equal to that em-
ployed in eight or ten of the largest machine establishments
of this country, anti that it was quite apparent that foreign
countries now possessed far greater means than ever of entering
into competition with us, and it was a striking fact that at the
present moment, as regarded many machines, we were unable
to export them any longer to advantage, because of the improve-
ment of them on the 'Continent by individuals residing there
who were able to supply them to the Continent better than we
were able to do. Ass lie had before stated, the position of this
country had greatly altered. Large machine establishments
had sprung up in France, Belgium, Switzerland, Saxony,
Prussia, and Russia ; and if they crossed the Atlantic, they
would find there many upstart inventions, particularly with re-
spect to the manufacture of cotton, which had driven many
thousand spindles out of employment. These were some of
the leading statements the machine-makers had laid be-
fore him, exhibiting, as they contended, the necessity for
this measure. As he said before, his opinions were on the
side of the British manufacturer, and he still retained an
opinion rather in favour of some restriction, if it could be
made available. But he was bound to say the inquiry the
machine-makers had prayed was worthy the consideration of
the House. He would not take upon himself to say that any
change might have taken place in the minds of the manufac-
turers since the last inquiry. It was his opinion, then, that the
repeal of the existing law would be injurious to their interests,
especially with regard to the continental trade. Now this oh-
'ection was made in 18:24 and 1825, when the currency
of the country was in a state of depreciation, and when
almost every article of manufacture rose consider-
ably in price, and when such was the competition for
machinery that those who were building mills at that period
found they could not obtain machines at a shorter period than
eighteen months. But on a question of this kind he should say
they oughts not to limit this experiment to a single year, but
to put their opinions to the test by the average experience of
several years. He thought this Committee would enable both
parties to state their views with greater correctness than they
could have done twenty-five years ago; and the relative con-
dition of the Continent and this country, as he had before said,
having undergone such great changes, he thought such a Com-
mittee was not the less desirable for the interests of the manu-
facturers of this country than for the interests of those machine-
makers who petitioned the House, and who conceived themselves
to be injured by the existing state of the law. He therefore
moved for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire
into the operation of the existing laws affecting the exportati n
of machinery.—( Hear. )
air. E. TEN NEN" seconded the motion with the utmost
pleasure. The inquiry sought for was not like many to which
they came with prejudiced minds. It was one of extreme
doubt. The present law was an absolute monopoly, and the
House was called upon to decide either for the ex-
isting principle of prohibition, or for such an alteration
as would do that which had never yet been done, namely to en-
force it. He was quite satisfied the result of the Committee
must be one or the other of these things. It was impossible
to look back at the Legislation of 1824 and 1825, without
being impressed with a sense of its imperfection. The lion.
Gentleman here referred to the opinions of the late Mr. Hus-
kisson on the subject of the exportation of machinery, who
stated that there was no objection to its exportation when it
contained a great quantity of the raw material ; but that in
the opposite case it should be restrained. Tools, as they were
called, formed a most important species of machinery, and were
the most astonishing in the effects they produced of any ma-
chinery made in this country. Manufacturers were indebted
to tools not only for the production of machinery, but also for
the precision with which it worked. Some tools were of enor-
mous dimensions-30 or 40 feet in length—and one of these
extraordinary tools would take an immense beam of iron, which
it took formerly weeks to polish, and in a few hours render it as
smooth as a ball of ivory. These automata performed their
operations with an ingenuity that was something like instinct;
yet such was the inconsistency of the present state of the le-
gislation on this subject, that these tools which conferred so much
advantage weae permitted to be exported. The lion. Gentle-
man here proceeded to explain the nature of one of those tools
which is used to make an instrument that is indispensille in
the manufacture of every kind of yarn. That instrument or
tool, called a card, was a description of brush made of iron-
wire, inserted in a slip of leather attached to a wooden frame :
it was formerly made by the hand, but now a tool was so con-
trived that a certain quantity of iron-wire and leather being
applied to it, it formed, without the intervention of human
agency, an iron-wire brush or card, such as that to which he
referred.' On the Continent they fully appreciated the excel-
lence of British machinery. They had tools of this country,
increasing in Swit-
the iron, and they now possessed the coals; and in consequence
thez er amanufacture
Belgium,
Austria, machineryan
and
llsia
rapidly
. That was a conside-
ration which should lead Hon. Members to inquire as to the use-
fulness of the prohibitions of the law. In 18.39 anti
1840 an attempt was intimated on the part of the
the French Government to levy a heavy duty on the import
of British yarn ; at the same time they intimated that that im-
post might be averted, if our Government would remove the
ursP4
duty on the export of machinery. lie (Mr. E. 'ferment)
was authorised by his constituents, as were also many other
lion. Members by their constituents, to allow of that exporta-
tion ; but he was glad to find that the contemplated impost
was not laid on by the French Government. lie thought it
was necessary to ascertain what was doing in every quarter
of the globe which aspired to manufacturing, or attempted
to compete with Great Britain in manufactures, in order
that they might decide on what was the best course to
adopt. The Honourable Gentleman next proceeded to
advert to the great price given on the Continent for English
machinery, which must, he contended, arise from its great
superiority over that of any other country. It must be ad-
mitted that the manufactures of the Continent are making
great strides towards a more successful competition with us.
But it was owing to the assistance they derived from England
they were enabled to do so. They had English workmen,
English iron, and English coals , • and if we add to that the
'tare of obtaining English machinery, we would increase
adva,-, "
the facility a.
competition. He • ! thou -"tit that some legislation
Wh'ether the exportation of
necessary.
upon the subject wag 'an altogether, or relieved from
machinery was to be forint.— -^nt law was necessary ;
restriction, some alteration of the pre,... —led the 'notion
and it was with the utmost 3atisfb.etten he teerni,,,7_
of his Hon. Friend.—(Hear, heat.)

The motion having been seconded,
General JOHNSON said that all the arguments of the Hon.
Member went to do away with the punishment of death alto-
gether; in that point he heartily concurred with him, but he
never could consent to putting people privately to death ; and
after all his plan went to convert an execution into a perfect
raree-shew, for admission to which the applications would be
so numerous, as according to the Hon. Gentleman's own
showing, to require to be determined by ballot. He should
oppose the motion as one altogether foreign to the feelings
I of Englishmen, and should the Hon. Member succeed in bring-
ing in his Bill, he should oppose it at every stage.
Mr. EWART, while doing full justice to the motives by
which the Hon. Member was actuated in bringing forward this
motion felt bound to oppose it. He fully admitted the evils
of public executions, but the true way of getting rid of it was
to abolish the punishment of death.—(Hear, hear.) Himself
and the other opponents of capital punishments had long been
travelling in one direction, and the Hon. Member for Knares-
borough now wished them to travel in another. He was right
in his motives, but he was wrong hi his principles, and by thus
removing one of the arguments against the abolition of capital
punishment the effect of his motion would be to make capital
punishment more lasting. The principle of private execu-
tions was bad, and he would ask whether such a system might
not be abused ? Let them look bask to history—all the most
horrible punishments had been inflicted in private ;—the rack,
the torture, and all the horrors of the Inquisition had been in-
flicted in private. Publicity was a check upon cruelty. To
refine and humanize the people they should look to a more
extended measure of education, and to the total abolition of
capital punishment. But he had strong doubts as to the efficiency
of the measure proposed by hi; Hon. Friend for the attainment
of the object he had in view. The press, in the present day,
was the great incrument of publicity, through that all the de-
tails of the agony of the prisoner would be given to the world
exaggerated and magnified, and the public appetite would be
pampered by reading the horrors which they did not see. He
thought the admission of the relatives of the prisoner would be
no effectual check, for ho hoped that none of them would ever
attend such a scene. Secrecy was an evil in principle, and in
this case more than any other. A great change had lately
taken place in the public feeling in relatiost to criminals : for-
merly they were considered as heroes and martyrs—now they
were considered as miscreants. He would admit that it was
dreadful that the people, as in the case of Courvoisicr, should
greet an unhappy criminal, on his appearance on the scaffold,
with bursts of execration ; but surely it was better than that
he should be cheered as a hero, as had formerly been the case.
His Hon. Friend's object was to do away with public execu-
cutions ; but, in carrying out this object, he should not forget
the habits of the people. In Prussia private executions were
more unfavourable with the habits of the people than in this
country. On the whole, though he approved of the motives
of his Hon. Friend, he would not agree to his motion. He
trusted, however, that they would soon all combine in the one
object, which had now become almost a European object, of
opposing capital punishments altogether.
Mr. FOX MA ULE said, that he could not let this question
go to a vote without expressing his opinion In very few words
upon the subject which his Hon. Friend had brought before
the House. He must say that he entirely concurred with the
vies taken by the Hon. and Gallant General, that this attempt
to make executions private would be abhorrent to the feelings
of the people.—( Hear, hear.) The whole argument of his
Hon. Friend appeared to him (Mr. Fox Maier!) rather to
make a case for tire abolition of capital punishments, than for
private execution of criminals who had fallen under the ex-
treme sentence of the law.—( Hear.) He thought his Hon.
Friend had been peculiarly unfortunate in his measure, because
he had arrayed against him on that occasion not only those
who were enemies of the present system of capital punish-
ments, but even those who were in favour of the entire
abolition of such punishments. He hoped that. the Honour-
able Gentleman, seeing the feeling of the House, in order
to save the necessity for a division, would withdraw that which,
from the best of motives, he had brought before the House.
With reference to the details into which his Hon. Friend had
entered, he would not then occupy the House by referring to
them. The question was simply this—was the system of exe-
cutions in this country to be public or private. Ile lamented,
as he had no doubt the House would lament, that it should ever
be necessary to have recourse to capital punishments, and he
also lamented that so much depravity should be witnessed when
a public example was made for the purpose of encouraging
public virtue. But, he believed, that if they were to do away
with the punishment of death, above all, if they were to make
it secret, more evils would follow in either case than were
complained of under the present system. Holding their opi-
nion.s, touch as he regretted that he should differ from his Hon.
Friend, who had so ably proposed the metvar e, if the House
divided upon it, he (Mr. F. Mettle) would feel it his duty to
give his vote against the motion.
Mr. HUME said he would recommend the Hon. Gentle-
man who had brought forward tide motion not to press it :o
a division, seeing that the sense of the house was entirely op-
posed to him. None of his arguments in favour of private
executions had met with support on either side. At the same
time, they must all feel obliged to the Hon. Gentleman for the
strong and powerful ease which he had made against pubic
executions.—( Hear, hear.) He had proved to demonstration
that public executions were a nuisance, and that, instead of
said lie sh oul d bheihsee,peusvieroptuoinsse:
doing good, they did harm.—(llear, hear.) He would re-
commend the Noble Lord to the left of the Hon. Gentleman to
weigh well the arguments which had been advanced, and the
facts which had been stated; and he trusted that he would be
prepared, whenever the question of total abolition came on,
either to answer them, or to agree to the motion. He was
quite sure that the details which had been given by the Hon.
Gentleman, if well reported and well considered, would have
great weight upo. n the country.
t,,:.e against the general
3'thait.
object was a new
House.('cea sattached sfeal
opi1:1 Ilro.n RICA, in rising to reply,
one, and that if any value to hie ofnthan,,y
With respect to the opinion that he woulo,
and the country.
would be best answered by bringing them before t
by what he proposed, revive anything like secret executions or
in•quisitions •• • ,he could only repeat the disclaimers which he had
already made of any such intention. With regard to history
being entirely against his plan, he believed, that in the very
1: of ancient history, executions took place
best periods
before competent witnesses. ( Hear, hear.) It was only
when profligacy Legan to prevail that a different custom w a

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 17, 1841.

NIGER EXPEDITION.

Mr. SHIEL said that, as the Viee•President of the Board of
Trade, he had no hesitation in conceding to the motion. There
had been no inquiry into the subject for fifteen years, and in
the meantime the exportation of machinery had gone on at a
very rapid rate of increase. What afforded him the greatest
satisfaction was, that the conduct of the inquiry would be in
the hands of a gentleman of so much sagacity, and so well ac-
quainted with the subject as his lion. Friend.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME vindicated his character from the asparsiori

thrown upon him in respect to his conduct upon this q-uestion.
He was a member of the Committee eighteen years ago, upon
whose recommendation the Combination Laws, and the law
prohibiting artizans to emigrate were repealed. That Committee
was desirous also of repealing the law which prevented the expor-
tation of machinery, but he (Mr. H.) was prevented from bring-
ing in the Bill for that purpose by the advice of Mr. Huskisson,
in consequence of the jealousy and the alarm of the manufac-
turers. He had always said that the time would come when
that body would see their own error; and all the suffering
which he had predicted they had since undergone. He
thought that it was sound and true policy to relieve manu-
factures of every kind from all restrictions, and then no coun-
try in the world could compete with England. We might
supply the whole world with machinery without suffering any
disadvantage. Improvements took place in machinery every
fuur or five years, and we would always be able to maintain
our superiority. He hoped that the Session would 'not pass
without a Bill being brought in to remove the inconveniences
from which the trade of the country had hitherto suffered.
Mr BROTHERTON would support the appointment of the
Committee. He did not for his own part wish to give any de-
cided opinion on the subject, and he would wait for further in-
quiry. But it was evident that the law ought not to be allowed
to remain in its present state. In his opinion it should either
be entirely prohibitory, or all machinery should be allowed ty
be exported. There was now in France machinery to the va'uc
of 15,000,030/. That machinery must either have been smugr,
Bled-into France from this country, or it must have been manu-
factured in consequence of our prohibitory duties. It was ma-
nifest, therefore, that the present system operated unfavourably
for England. What he wished for was fair play, and he .had
no doubt but we would then be able to compete with all the
nations in Europe. Under these circumstances he considered
that a full investigation of the subject would, be attended with
great advantage.
Mr. VILLIERS said that he believed it to be of the greatest

importance to this country, that it should export machinery ;
and that no restriction could be imposed on it which would not
be most injurious. He represented many who would be glad
to see that the end of the proposed inquiry would be a removal
of all restrictive duties. Those whom he represented would
be glad to find the superiority once possessed by this country
still retained ; but it now became a matter of necessity with
them, seeing the progress which foreign manufacturers had
made, to export, instead of their goods, the machinery for manu-
turing them. He could not help calling the attention of the
House to the alarms of the Hon. Member for Belfast. That
Honourable Member was, however, one of a party who
steadily maintained all those restrictions on our
commerce of which our manufacturers complained.—( Hear. )
That had always been denied on the other side of the House,
and the law which had been founded on that denial had been
maintained.—( Hear.) The Hon. Member, however, had tras
veiled ; and now, for the first time, he admitted the rivalry of
foreign countries, and the necessity for inquiry.—( Hear. ) That
was a most important admission from one of that party, and he
hoped it would net be lost upon his friends, but that they would
see that our national prosperity depended upon the prosperity
of our manufacturers. He should support the motion, and
only wished it went further.—(Hear.) The law was perfectly
inadequate for protection, inasmuch as there was a company
at Hamburgh for the importation of this very machinery, at a
cost of 35 per cent.—( Hear. )
Mr. WALKER felt obliged to the House and the Govern-
ment for the kind manner in which they had met his question ;
and he thought that inquiry would show that no injury would
accrue from the exportation of machinery.
Mr. HINDLEY thought that the operatives would be
benefited by the exportation of machinery, but manufacturers
would not. He did not think foreigners would take off all the old
machinery of the country as supposed by the Hon. Member for
Kilkenny, but that they would get the best. The question
had not been fully stated to the House. It was a matter
of great consequence that they should consider, whether they
should encourage the exportation of machinery to the amount of
Aio,ooo/., which was the cost for the machinery of a mill, when
tine annual profit derived from the employment of the ma-
ch,:nery in this country would be the same. He thought the
p ession of the machinery would teach the foreigner how he
shoL•ld beneficially use it. It removed many obstructions from
the fa -eigner which new prevented him from acquiring an exact
knovvlC Ige of our improved methods of manufacturing. He did
not urgi
these operations in order to defeat the object of his
Hon. Fa. iend in obtaining useful inquiry, but he asked the
House top ause before they gave away a benefit. All his feelings
were in fzvOur of free trade, and had we a free trade in corn
and no natie.
nal debt, he would then say go forward. The in-
telligence o Fthe country would then carry all before it.
Mr. MUIVI:Z thought the subject so self-evident as to re-
quire no Corns's; ittee. Every tool used might be exported, and
was exported. Our manufacturers were underworked on the
Continent. Wh
ih! taxing our machinery, we were not bene-
fiting the manufactt
trer ; he therefore thought the Hon. Mem-
ber would do betterto bring in a Bill at once to permit the
exportation of macllitierY, and the shorter time wasted in the
Committee the better' .he should be pleased.
Mr. E WART thou that taxing the exportation of mas
chinery, thus raisingg :ts, price, the foreigner was driven to
make it for himself. 11 cse restrictions ought to have been
removed long ago. It was
due to the Hon. Member for Kil-
kenny to state that in 1824 1.42 was the first to draw the atten-
tion of the House to this sub;e,et; and on that occasion all the
mony to the utter inefficiency revenue officers had borne tecth
of our prohibitory regulations. Until the year 1750 there
was a free trade in the exportatios of machinery. Mr. Hus-
kisson most truly observed, that whai s artizans were encouraged
to go out to other countries it was in vain to restrict the ex-
portation of machinery. The maim' e-lance and advocacy of.
the only real basis of
the great principles of free trade was .
the prosperity of this country.
Mr. MORRISON said that all who had pp. id any attention to
this subject must be convinced that the restris 'dons imposed by
those laws had checked one of the most impors 'ant branches of
our commerce. This was the more to be lament, ed as machi-
nery is one of those things which belonged peculi, srly to Eng-
land, and of which, if proper regulations were adop. ted, no na-
tion could deprive us. By these restrictions they had only
conferred a bounty upon foreign manufacturers, for our ma-
chines were smuggled to a considerable extent. He bet. led to
suggest to the Hon. Gentleman who had proposed this, mea-
sure the expediency of taxing machinery imported into es. `her
countries. There might be some difference of opinion up on
that subject, but there could be none as to the propriety of On t
inquiry.
Mr. THORNELY could not agree with the Hon. Mem-
ber's suggestion in reference to the further taxing of machinery,
as any additional tax would only be a bounty to the smuggler.
The motion was then put and carried.
Mr. O'CONNELL moved that the petition of John S.
Folds, presented on the 12th of February,' be printed with
the votes. The Hon. Gentleman said that by a statute passed
in the reign of William 111., compensation was to be made to
all persons who were injured in Ireland by the malieiousburning
of their premises and property. 'The individual who presented
the petition had had considerable property destroyed in conse-
quence of his premises being set fire to by persons engaged in
a combination, and his (Mr. O'Connell's) object was that the
petition should be in the hands of all the Members before he
made his motion for compensation.
Mr. GREENE would take the liberty ofsuggesting that con-
siderable inconvenience had already occurred in consequence
of petitions being printed without a previous examination.
Perhaps the Hon. Gentleman would defer his motion till
Friday next.
Mr. O'CONNELL objected to any delay.
Mr. HUME said it was the intention of the lion. and
Learned Member to found a motion upon the petition. There
would be no difference in the expense whether it was printed
with the votes, or five days later by the Committee.
Lord MORPETII saw no reason why the motion should not
be acceded to.

The petition was then ordered to be printed with the votos

Viscount INGESTRIE then, pursuant to notice, called the
attention of the House to the period of time appointed for the
sailing of the above expedition. He did not intend to enter
larger}, into any of the merits or policy of the proposed expe-
dition ; he would be most glad to see the main object
of it fully carried out, viz., the total abolition of the
dive trade in the interior of Africa. He was given
to understand that it would not be ready to sail until the be-
ginning of April. He did not think they could arrive at Sierra
Leone until the end of May. They would then want some
men, called kroomen, which would detain them till June,
which was the most unhealthy part of the rainy season. He
had been told that it was necessary that these vessels must go
up the river in the rainy season. That might be true, but
who would say that the vessel could proceed by any proper
channel? That channel was constantly changing in conse-
quence of the Delta in the Niger, which ran upwards of one
hundred miles. The vessels would get aground, and the crews
would be exposed to the pestilential climate for months.
Now, for the sake of humanity, he would ask whether
the expedition might not be delayed for a time ? Let
them be employed as exploring vessels, and be ready
to proceed on their mission at a more fitting opportunity.
There were many other considerations he would not then enter
upon, his sole object this evening being to call the attention of
the Government to the period of the departure of the expedi-
tion. A vessel named the Ethiope had just returned from the
Niger, having been unable to effect a passage up that river.
As a medium of commerce with Africa he thought there were
good grounds for dcubting if that river would ever be found
available. Under these circumstances he hoped the GoVerri-
moot would not, for the sake of pleasing a few benevolent but
mistaken individuals, persist in an undertaking which there was
every reason to believe would be a complete failure, and
be attended by loss of life of almost every person who en-
gaged in it.
Mr. M. O'FERRALL said the object of the expedition was
that which the Hon. Member had stated. It had been origi-
nally intended that the expedition should sail in. the month of
October, but it had since been found necessary that its depsr-
ture should be deferred until March, in order that the vessels
might have the advantage of the first floods in the rainy season,
without the assistance of which they could not effect a passage
up the Niger. With respect to that period of the year being
the most unhealthy, it was ascertained, by the researches of
scientific gentlemen, that it would not be found so unhealthy
to those who visited it in iron vessels; which, moreover, had
been specially prepared for the purpose.
. Mr. H UME wished, if the Noble Lord the Secretary for the
Colonies had been present, to have asked him some queStions
with respect to the objects of the expedition, which he pro-
fessed he could not understand. He thought the debate should
be adjourned, in order that the Noble Lord might be present,
and give same explanation on the subject.
Mr. VER),ION SMITH was surprised the Hon. Member
for Kilkenny should inquire the object of an expedition for
which twelve months ago he had joined in voting a sum of
60,000/.—(Mr. Hume, "No such thing."—Laughter.) The
object of the expedition was to establish commercial relations
with the chiefs of that country, with a view to the abolition
of the slave trade, and the civilization of Africa. Ilis Hon.
Friend (Mr. M. O'Ferrall) had already correctly explained
the reason for the delay that had taken place its the departure
of the expedition.
Mr. WARBURTON would say that, looking to the
magnitude of the expedition, the smallness of the means were
wholly disproportionate to it. The expedition was undertaken
to a part of Africa from which communication with the interior
was cut off for six months of the year. Sixty thousand pounds
was a large sum, and if that amount was expended in the be-
ginning, what would it come to at the conclusion ? Some delay
had occurred in the expedition, and he hoped that advantage
would be taken of that delay to give some more information
than was at present had on the objects of the expedition.
Mr. O'CONNELL did not think the Noble Lord had made
out any great case on the subject of an improper time for
making the attempt to pass up the Niger. The Noble. Lord
had failed in making out a case. The Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman then proceeded to comment on that part of the Noble
rd's speech which referred to Captain Beacroft sailing up the
Niger, and contended, from the extracts read by the Noble
Lord from that officer's letter, that he did not establish the
view of the case which he sought to urge. The Hon. Member
then adverted to the public meeting which had been held to
promote the objects of the expedition—for the proceedings of
which meeting he referred to the Hon. Member for Kilkenny
as to what the objects of the expedition were.
Mr. HUME had merely asked that the motion would be ad-
journed till the objects of the expedition -were more perfectly .
understood by the House. The present was the first occasion

on.which he had heard of a Member of that House being re-
ferred to for speeches delivered at a public meeting to ascer-
tain the objects of a measure put in execution by Government.
Mr. HA\VES never heard objections to any measure less
founded than those that he had heard urged on that evening
against the expedition which formed the subject of the present
discussion.

Mr. HUME said that he took Jamieion's pamphlet as the
source of his information.

Mr. H AWES said he now understeod the ground of the
lion. Member's objections. The object of the e:cpedition was
fully stated• in a letter of Lord John Russell to tke Lords of the
Treasury. As to the money expended on the expedition, it
was comparatively little to that we were annually spending to
put down the Slave-trade.—( Hear, hear. )
Viscount INGESTRIE, in reply, said ke was net at all
satisfied with the explanations of the lion. Gentleman (Mr.
V. Smith). He hoped the Government would at least defer
the sailing of the expedition, in order that further information
might be acquired on the subject..
Admiral ADAMS said that every necessary inquiry had
been made before the expedition sailed, and the information
given by Captain l3eacroft was found to be tolerably correct.
Although the season at which the ships would arrive at tho
Delta was unhealthy, it was certain that they would be able
to sail up the river, and arrive rapidly at a healthy climate.
The motion was then withdrawn.
REGISTRATION OF VOTERS (SCOTLAND).
The LORD ADVOCATE moved for leave to bring in a
Bill for the registration of voters in Scotland, and stated his
intention not to interfere with the present system, but to give it
more uniformity and steadiness. One of his propositions was to as-
similate it more to the systems of England and Ireland as respec-
ted appeal. He proposed that, instead of ten Courts which existed
at present, there should be but one Court of Appeal ; and he
further proposed alterations which would render the appeal less
expensive. The present mode of challenge entailed upon the
poor,toters an expense of not less than 2,0001. a year; and he
proposed to remedF its defects in that respect, keeping the fran-
chise substantially, es it was.
After a short conversation, in which Mr. Shaw, Mr. G.
HoPe, Mr. Fox Miele, arid Mr. Oswald, took part,
Leave was given to bring in the Bill.
EMIGRATION (SCOTLAND).
_ .

On the motion of Mr. H. BAILLIE the following Members
were nominated as a Select Committee on Emigration ( Scot-
land) :7-Mr. H. Baillie, Mr. Robert Steuart, Mr. Edward
Ellice, Mr. Thomas Mackenzie, Mr. Cumming Bruce, Mr.
William Mackenzie, Mr. Ew art, Mr. Protheroe, Mr. Tufnell,
Lord Teigmnouth, Mr. Robert Pigot, Mr. Colquhoun, Mr.
Ward, Mr. William Smith O'Brien, and Mr. Dunbar.

Mr. VERNON SMITH: suggested, in case those gentle-
men should not be able to attend, that their places should be
filled up by some gentleman conversant w►th the affairs of
Canada.

The House adjourned at Half past Eleven o'Clock.

FROM LAST N1G11.1"S GAZETTE

BUCKINGHAM PALACE, Fra. 11.
The Queen was this day pleased to confer the honour of
Knighthood upon Thomas Erskine Perry, Esq., one of the
Judges of the Supreme Court of Judicature, at Bombay.