The Sun.
London, England, 1841-04-27 00:00:00

THE SUN. LONDON, TUESDAY, APRIL 27, 1841.

the course of last year, in consequence of the 1 Ipso of time,

at one swoop 57,000 were struck off, and the constituency
reduced to 42.000. At the present moment the consti-
tuency ewee led what it was the first year aler the pa,s-
ing of the R :form Act, and f II only 6 000 or 7,000 short
of the number it was after two years working, namely, in
1535. Looking at the pl ices where a g.elt decrease in
the number of voters had taken place he foand that on the
faking is of the first Latch of voters parries did not rcne.v,
inasmuch as th -.re was no contest and no political excite-

ment to !e Id men to renew their vote,. fie found that in

eleven counties where a decrease had taken place no contests
had taken place of late _nameawn, y LiTerick, Londonderry, Mayo, Roscum-
], Antrim, Arm,gh,
men, Waterford, and, Wexford ;—in those counties neither

one party nor the other being in tho ascendant. In these
counties there was a deficiency of 11,000 voters, and
consequently in the remaining counties, as compered with
1835, only two Sessions after the passing of the Reform
Bill, there was an actual increase of 4,000 or 5,000,

comparing the numbers at prient on the registry
with the numbers on it at that period. He did
not rne.in t,) say that a diminution of the consti-

tuency in Ireland was not ping on—what he said
was, there mai no proof of it. He had reason to be-

lieve that many landlords were withholding- leases, not
on political grounds but for the purposes of improve-
ment. IF that cause were decreaiing the enstituencie3,
then the amendment of his Noble Friend was the proper

- •
remedy; it was the legitimate and proper mode of meeting
what he would consider a great evil. He concurred in

. _ .
most of the opinions enunciated by
his Noble Friend,
and when it was shown to himthat there was a-iv alarming
decrease in the constituencies of Ireland from such a cause,
he would seek a remedy, but most certainly not that of the
Government, who seemed to say, that because one gentle-
man refused to grant lea=d, they would give the power to
six other proprietors to give the franchise to persons with-
out any sort of property.—(Cheer:.) As at present ad-
vised he could not assent to the. necessity I f any augmen-
tation or alteration in the constituencies of Ireland. His

Noble Friend had been very successful in cxposing the ab-
surdity, he might say, at all events, the want of consideration
shown is the plan of the Government, and his Noble
Friend the Sceretary for Ireland had had some success is
exposing the proposition of his Noble Friend the Member
for Northumberland.—(A laugh.) He would vote for
neither the one or the other proposition, but if he were
called upon to do so, he was prepared to give his voice for
the amendment, in opposition to the undigested plan of
the Government.—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. O'CONNELL had not intended to take any part
in that discussion, becaus,3 he thought it was merely a
question of detail ; but he had been driven from his envied
silence by some observations which had fallen from the
Noble Lord. Although there were 52,000 vcters on the

register in 1833, yet he had before stated th,tt only from
26,000 to 28,000 would be available as substantial voters,

and he had stated that the Noble Lord's li,cfJrm Bill

would not add mor3 than 2,000 to that number; but it
was to be remembered that that wai in 1832, and before
the 10/. chattel occupation was introduced—that clause

accounted for the augmentation which had taken place.
The Noble Lord had talked of the constituencies of Ire-

land not perishing in Ireland.

Why, the county

constituencies were now 20,891 _ fewer ie 1835;

•
the city and town constituencies had increased, and by
that means the loss on the aggregate was reduced to 7,500.
The Hoe. Gentleman then entered into a comparison and

contrast of the population and constituencies of counties in
Ireland wi'li those of England, which has often appeared
in our columns. Ile had shown that there was no equality
whatever between the two countries, and he would ask
why they did not restore the 40s. freehold franchise to
Ireland, and so far put her on an equality with England ?
They might go on insulting Ireland as they pleased, but
he would tell them that Ireland perfectly understood the
injustice done her, and fully felt the contempt with which
she was treated by that House.—( Cries of " Divide.")
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was anxious to say a very few
wards before the House went to a division. He was ex-
tremely sorry, from the tone of the debate, to see that there
was no prospect of the House coming to an arrangement
for deciding the important question of the franchise in Ire-
land. Their position was this—lit the discussion respect-
ing the Irish registration there was a very general impres-
sion that noregistration would place the franchise in Ireland
upon a satisfactory footing unless it was properly defined so
as to settle the contradictory decitions, and the extremely
irregu'ar practices which prevailed in consequence. The
Bill of the Government proposed to define the franchise.
His opinion was the same as th it of his Noble Friend
who introduced the Bill—that a tenure of fourteen years,
with a 5/. rating to the Poor-rate, was a franchise which
would have given the right of voting to persons of pro-
perty in Ireland, and, at the same time, would have been
so extensively diffused as to have given general satiefac-
tion. Ile did think, and he had stated to the House
when he proposed to adjourn the Bill, that it was of such
immense importance to obtain, if possible, an agreement
on questions of this kind, and not to continue for another
year the discontent which, he said at the time, naturally
arose from the menace held out last year to disfranchise
the people of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He then said
that he thought it was worth while to be subject to the
taunts which were made against Ministers, and in which
even his Hon. Friend the Member for Halifax indulged—
(Hear, hear)—and to depart from what they had origi-
nally proposed. They had thought it worth while
to incur those taents, and to indulge the hopes—
illusory as they now seemed to be—(Cheers)—
that they might bring the contention to a close. —( Cheers.)
Although the attempt had failed, he did not regret that
he had made it.—(Hear, hear.) He had thought it his
duty to subject himself to any sarcasms of the kind, with
which he had been visited, in order, if possible, to retrieve
what he conceived to be the unfortunate error committed
by a great party in that House.—(Cbeers.) It had been
his opinion, and still was so, that the people of Ireland had
suffered much, that they had suffered things which he
would not now attempt to describe, but which had been
described is stronger terms, than perhaps he would use, by
the lion. Member for Newark.—( He ir, hear.) He had
thought that if ever it could be pos,ible that a time should
arrive in which they should have no question before Pa--
liament which should put in conflict the passions of differ-
ent parties in Ireland, if it could arrive at an interval of
tranquillity, to enable men, intent on the gains of industry,
on the improvement of agriculture, and the ex-
tension of commerce, to give their attention to
those pursuits, and to Le diverted, for some time
from politcal contest, he thought he would obtain
for that country a great benefit.—( Hear, hear.) But it
now appeared to a great party in the House, that this was
not the course which should be taken.—( Cheers.) It
appeared to them better to raise ques ions which gave them
party majorities—(Cheers)—and gave them triumphs in
the course of the Session—(Cheers)—which majorities
and triumphs, every one, excited more and more the anges,
the indignation, and the feeling of wrong done in the
minds of the people of Ireland.—( Cheers.) He had been
in hopes, however, that by sacrificing something of his
own opinions, that the House generally, or a great part of
it, would concur in some law which would again allay the
storm that had been raised. It appeared that in that hope
he was entirely disappointed.-_( Hear, hear.) It appeared
from the speech of the Noble Lord, the Member for North
Lancashire, that if he voted for the amendment it would
be with a different view of its operation from that taken
of it by his Noble Friend who moved it, and because it
would promote the .principle to which he ( Lord Stanley)
adhered, namely. that of an interest above the
rent. Now, A was for that very reason, that
he (Lord John Russell) would oppose the amendment,
for he considered that if the House gave its sanction to that
construction of the franchise, the constituency would be
destroyed.—( Hear, hear.) What his Noble Friend in-
tended afterwards to ground upon this clause was, that the
tenant who paid a certain rent should be rated Si. beyond
that rent. Whaeever might be the intention of Parlia-
ment in the passing of the Reform Bill, be believed that
the introduction of such a test at present would deprive a
logo majority of the present electors of the right of voting.
The Noble Lord adhered to the definition given by the
Judges. Now he ( Lord J. Russell) found no fault with
that definition. The Judges said it was not for them
to look to what might have been the intention of
Parliament, but what appeared to them to be
the least interpretation of the words of the
Act. It was their duty to give that interpretatiou ;
but this he thought was manifest, if that sense was to bo
adopted, as the Noble Lord opposite appeared to intend, it
would go much further than the proposition of his Noble
Friend the Member fir Northumberland to destroy the
franchises of at least one-half the present voters. The
Noble Lord had raid, look to the state of the registry, for
the effect which the interpretation given by the Judges had
had in reducing the constituency ; but it was to be recol-
lected that the decision of the Judges had not affected the
registry in every case. Some of the Judges had decided
in opposition to the majority, and the ikevisine Barristers
had retained many votes which the majority of the Judges
would have struck off if they had come before them. The
question now was whether the House should adopt some clear
and definitive franchise.—( Hear, hear.) They would not,
in fact, be able to maintain the Judges' interpretation with-
out destroying the existing franchise. He could not agree
that the introduction of these words by his Noble Friend
the Me nber for Northumberland would be introductory of
his plan ; on the contrary, they would only serve to intro-
duce the plan of the Noble Lord opposite.—(Cheers.)
Nor could lie derive any consolation from the hope held
oat that when the franchise was destroyed some Bill would
be introduced to restore ir, when they had changed the'
character of the representation, and found that the people
nominally represented actually had no vice it it.
In fact, it would be, according to the descrip-
tion of his Noble Friend, a representation of the
owners of tile land from which the people were ex-
cluded.—( Cheers.) lie thought that if they wished the
people of Ireland to have a real representation, the time
to give it teem was now. If, on the contrary, it was their
determination that the people of Ireland should not be re-
presented, he thought it would be better to take a clear
and direct means of effecting that object, and to declare
that they were not fit to be entrusted with the right of
voting for representatives. If that were the intention of
a great party in that House, let thetas take their stand upon
that ground, and declare that they intend to adhere to
that principle.- From all that he (Lord J. Russell) had
heard that night, lie could only gather that it was intended
to persist in that indirect and tortuous way at disfranchis-
ing Ireland—( Loud cheers from the Liberal benches)—
which he saw attempted last year-3 way which would
not be the less effectual because it was indirect, which he
certainly should never cease to denounce and op-
pose ([lsar,
hear) and he certeinly did trust
that the people of Ireland would believe, if
these attempts should unhappily make any progress,
that it was not -because the people of England wished to
see them disfranchised, but that, on the contrary, the
people of England wished to see them honestly and fairly
represented—(Loud cheers from both sides of the House)
—and not defrauded of their rights—( Hear, hear)—and
by withdrawing from them those privileges which even
when they took away the right of voting from the forty-
shilling freeholders they granted in a manner that showed
considerable generosity and a great sense of the value of
fo
the privilege of voting
theMembeNrsooble Loral,
fParli
"that youent. " Do
not, do not saidimagine,"r
can without remark, that you can without exciting great
indignation, withdraw the privileges which in 1829 you

granted to the people of Ireland. My belief is, that by I loss to ascertain it, and while I admit the principle I am
acceding to the Bill of my Noble Friend and by the fran- not prepared to acce le to the details of the measure of
chi!, he has proposed, you will act in the spirit of h s Noble Lord, or approve of the machinery by
the Bill of 1829 and in the spirit of the Bill of Reform of which he proposes to emery his Bill into effect. In
1832 ; sod :hat if, on the contrary, you take an unwise point of feet he admits he is net prepared to specfy
course it will not be long before you would wish that you ! the amount of rent which should be required. I appre-
had not interfered to excite a spirit in the people of Ire- bend we are abort to come to a vote which is de-
land which will justify thorn le-m( The remainder of the csive of the f.tr of the Bill ;at least to a vote which, if it
se donee was lost amid loud and long continued cheers be catried against the Noble Lord, will render it neces-
from the Ministerial side of the House.) sary to proceed with a measure directly at variance with
Sir R. PE EL rose and said—Sir, the Noble Lord has the present. I am glad an opportunity has arrived of
on this occasion pursued the course which he almost uni- taking. the sense of the House on the point. lam glad
lonely pursues wit he has some very defective measure the Noble Lord does not now consider this a mere verbla
to de!end (Loud cheers)—that of trying to divert amendment. lam glad he considers that a great question
the attention of the House from the subject properly under is now at i sue. lam glad that before we proceed fur-
its consideration, and by some general.declamation about ther with the details of the Brll the sense of the House
popular rights in some charges against his polit ell oppe- shall be fairly taken as to whether a profit should be con-
nects, to raise a cheer in the behalf of those who sit behind sidered a distinct mark of the county franchise ; and Ido
him, under the cover of which cheer he himself retires entreat lion. Gentlemen carefully to consider what will be
from the discussion, and fancies thst he has been tria the effect on the constituencies of England, and on the fran
umphantly successful.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord chinas of England, if they consent that mere occupancy
charges my Noble Friend with an intention so to reduce in Ireland shall determine the county franchise.
the constituency cf Ireland that the counties of Ireland One word as to an observation made by the Hon. arad
may become nomination counties; and then the Noble Learned Member for Dublin. I did not state on a former
Lord says th it my Noble Friend proposes an intention to occasion that there had be en any contract in 1829, be-
condescend to introduce a Reform Bill. The Noble Lord tween the advocates of the Roman Catholic; and those
charges us with an intention to defeat the expectations who proposed the Roman Catholic Relief Bill. I admit
whieh were encouraged by the Act for the Relief of the to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman that there had been
Roman Catholic', and by the Reform Bon I utterly re- no such contract in existence. But this I stated, and this
pudiate any such intention.—( Great the ering). Ido not I repeat, that the evidence given by the advocates of the
think there would be any advantage to any interest, to Roman Catholic claims in 1825 did fully justify the die-
any party, in defeating such an intention. My Noble franchisement of the 40s. freeholders in ircland.—( Hear,
Friend distinctly stated, and 1 teee ited, "If you will hear.) I stated that the lion and Learned Gentleman,
prove to us by conclusive evidence, that the conatituencY as well as the lion. and Learned Member for Tipperary,
intended by the Reform Bill has been materially diminished, and Mr. Blake, a Roman Catholic gentleman of great
we will then consider a proposal for increasing it, if' eminence, had all given it as their opinion that it was
brought forward by those only who can suggest it with essential to the interests of Ireland that an intelligent and
advantage, namely, those who fill the executme offices of respectable yeomanry should be formed and invited to the
Government, and have the means of information in exercise of the franchise, and that tho.,e results were
their power." But the question arises, has the more likely to he obtained under a limited and indepec-
constituency been materially decreased beyond the measure dent constituency thin with such a constituency as
that was contemplated by the Act of Reform ? Sir, the that of the forty shilling freeholders. I stated that
lion. Gentleman, who was better qualified to judge of Mr. Dominic Browne, the ,Vlernber for Mayo, had declared
what was the constituency immediately after the Reform that when there were 25,000 voters in the county, it was
Bill, or the constituency that would be given by the Re- a nomination county, and that when the constituency was
form Bill, than the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. Sir, reduced under the Reform Bill to 9,000, the independence
I have his own words—he is speaking on the 18th of June of the constituency had been secured, and no one could
1832, and the lion, and Learned Gentleman distinctly nominate for the county.. I stated that when the dee-
states, " The Member for Kilkenny has made a calcula- tors voted formerly against their landlords they were sub-
lion of the number of persons who polled at contested jest t i so much oppression, that in order to rescue them
elections in 1818 ; that number amounted to 15,211. from their condition it was found desirable to modify the
There then remained fourteen counties unpolled. But it franchise. That was what I stated ; but I never stated
should be observed that the contests took place in those that there had been a compact between the advocates of the
places where there was the greatest number of voters." Roman Catholics and the Members of the Government.
Now, let any man calculate on this data, and I fearlessly The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had again referred
ask him whether, in giving a constituency of 26,000 to Ire- to the nmount of population. I apprehend that her Ma-
land I have not placed the number infinitely too high. Make jcsty's Government will not concur with him in looking
the number caused by the additional franchise to be on population as a test for the franchise.—( Hear, hear.)
26,000, and can the lion. Gentleman show that the con- The question is not, I apprehend, as to the amount of
stituency, as it at present exists, is diminished beyoud the population, but as to the amount of intelligence and respect-
expectations excited in 1832? But what is the proposal ability, free from all external control, which we can conn-
ote the Noble Lord? I will assume, for the sake of the mend. That was avowed to 'have been the prin-
argument, that you )cave afforded us that proof ciple of the Reform Bill—that I apprehend is still
and demonstration, that you have shown that from avowed to he the principle of her Majesty's Government.
the operation either of laws, or of social causes beyond The question then does not now arise as to whether or not
the control of laws, there is a considerable decrease in the franchise should be co-extensive with population ; the
the constituency of Ireland, and a tendency to further de- question in dispute is this, whether her Majesty's Govern-
cteasc. I will assume that you have proved that. Then ment have made a proposal which entitles them to the con-
I say, even if I grant that that has been proved, the No- fidence of Parliament, and whether they are capable of
ble Lord has provided a most indefensible and inefficient dealing with this great question ; and I must say that the
remedy. That is the question which we are considering course they have pursued on the subject of the Irish fran-
to-night, —(Cheers.) The Noble Lord says, in conse- chine appears to me to disentitle them to the confidence of
quence of the refusal of landlords to grant leases the can- this House.—(Cheers.)
stituency of Ireland is undergoing a considerable diminu- Mr. O'CONNELL said he wished briefly to notice
tion. And what does the Noble Lord propose as a re- that speech of his to which the Right Hon. Baronet had
needy ? He proposes a measure which makes a lease in- alluded. The Right lion. Baronet had quoted it as if
oisperrsably necessary.—( Hear, hear.) Thc Noble Lord, he (Mr. O'Connell) had made the calculation of what
in providing for the increase of the constituency, what would be the franchise after the Reform Bill, whereas
course does he pursue? He subverts altogether the ex- the speech he read related to a calculation of the state of
istrrg franchise in Ireland. In England, in Scotland, it before the Reform. Bill, namely, 26,000. On that
and in Ireland, with the exception of the 501. clause, the point he (Mr. O'Connell) could not be mistaken, what.
main element of the constituency is interest in the land ever he might have been before—(ob, oh)—because he
and profit from it. It always has been so. Is it had published that statement in a letter, both in the news-
right in the case of Ireland, mainly dependent for her papers and in a pamphlet. The Hon. Baronet who had
prosperity on the success of agriculture—is it right, in the taken an active part in the Emancipation Bill, had done
case of Ireland, that profit from the land should he alto- them the justice to say that they made no bargain, nor any
gether excluded from the franchise?—(Hear, hear.) But compact, but that was but doing them half justice, because
the Noble Lord proposed that the right of voting for 32 they had expressly called upon the House to reject the
counties in Ireland shall be exactly coincident to the right Enaaascipation Act rather than' disfranchise the 40s. free-
of voting in boroughs and towns—namely, that occupancy holders. Petitions were presented to the House on this
alone, as tested by the rating, should constitute the fran- subject by sinsjothree gentlemen who came from Ireland
chise. Has the Noble Lord given us any argument in fa- expressly for Char; purpose. They spurned the disfran-
your of such a substantial alteration? Has he considered chiscment which accem;aanied the Bill, and petitioned the
the effect of that alteration upon the franchise in England? House rather to resift: both than to pass both.
How long will the Noble Lord maintain profit from the So that they not cnly male no compact, but
land as an element of the franchise in England, alter he they protested against this disfranchisement.—(Hear.)
has subverted it in Ireland, and substituted merely occu- In 1825 there existed objections to the: 40s. freeholders.
aney, as tested by rating in Ireland ?—( Hear, hear.) They were thee dependent on their landloaeds! and obliged
It is an important principle which the Noble Lord recom- to vote as they pleased. There were many ditNulties con-
mends us to adopt a principle of very extensive fleeted with them, but he (Mr. O'Connell) for ore, never
application. He will find it exceedingly difficult to main- consented to the disfranchisement of the 403. freeho.dehs
min one franchise in Ireland and another in England. If who were seized in fee. In 1825 they threw off their
the one invariable franchise in Ireland is to be mere occu- shackles, and evinced their patriotism. They turned the
panty as tested by rating, the effect, I believe, will be to Beresfcrds out of Waterford, the Fosters out of Louth,
place the return of the Irish Members very much in the and Mr. Vescy Fitzgerald out of Clare. Having
hands of the same class of constituency as now return the given these proofs of their patriotism in 1825,
Members for the boroughs. Well, then, I object entirely when they were dependent, in 1829 they were
to the principle upon which the Noble Lord proposes to disfranchised. This was the history of their disfranchise-
alter the franchise. And am I not at liberty to make that ment, and what did the Reform Bill? Did it give them
objection without being immediately met by the declare- additional franchises, or restore to them that they had lost?
tion of the Noble Lord telling us, " Your object is not Would it have been taken away in England? Would the
merely to defeat my Bill but to reduce the counties of people of England have suffered it? Very properly they
Ireland to the lowest point of representation?" The would not, yet it was taken from Ireland where it was
Noble Lord charges us with reducing the franchise. Why, more needed than ever in Eogland. When the Right
the Hon. Member for Halifax told him not merely lion. Baronet told him that population seas not tic basis
that he was taking a leaf out of the book of my of the franchise, he admitted that it was not the sole
Noble Friend, but that he was constructing his franchise basis, but the basis was population and property.
upon a shifting sand; that he went infinitely further to- But how was it estimated in Ireland? Why, by
wards reducing the franchise than any reduction which population and the forty shilling freeholders. The
icy Noble Friend have made by the amendment of the re- Noble Lord taunted him, (Mr. O'Connell) and his party
gistration. The Hon. Member for Halifax showed the with driving Ireland to despair. He told the Noble Lord
Noble Lord that the effect of the franchise which he pro- they were not driven to despair. They were too many,
poses in fourteen unions in Ireland, would be to reduce too peaceable, too intelligent, and too united for that.
the number of electors now entitled to vote by one-sixth. What had occurred among them recently ? He stated it
That is the allegation which the Hon. Gentleman made with satisfaction and with pleasure, because it supplied
against this well-considered plan of the Noble Lord. Why, them with a new remedy. He had stated it before, and
what confidence can we place in you as legislators fit to he stated it again, that they did not know that country.
deal with this subject ?—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) You There were five millions there who never tasted the liquor
had the whole of the recess; you had notice that this sub- of intoxication. They had calculated on their pas-
ject was undergoing consideration ; you hid the means sions and their vices, but they could be oppressed
of gaining official information ; you bad every through these no longer. How could the Noble
element which could enable you to bring for- Lord say that lie did not intend to place the
ward a measure which was likely to conciliate public people of Ireland in the hands'of the landlord? Why ei:Sl
opinion in its favour, and you brought forward a measure not the Noble Lord avow it ? Did not the Noble Lord
destroying the existing franchise in Ireland and substitut- say that he intended to assimilate them to those in Eng.
ing a 5/. occupancy. We remained under the impression land ? should he be told after that it was not intended to
that we were to discuss the question of 51. occupancy, and disfranchise them? The House had done nothing but base
two or three nights before we enter upon the considera- injustice to Leland. The Right lion. Gentleman had
tion, without a reason assigned, the Noble Lord changes said that he ( Mr. O'Connell) gloated in looking back at
his proposal from 51. to 81. And what does the Noble the crimes that England had perpetrated against Ireland.
Lord say now? The Secretary for Ireland tells us now It must he admitted that no one country had ever perpc-
that he could support his 5/. franchise by a reference to tamed so many crimes as England had to Ireland. Why
facts and evidence, which shows that it was a proposition did he mention it? Because that spirit existed still. They
that ought to have been made. Why had it been aban- had not the same means—they bad not the same power;
Boned?—( Hear.) From whence came the suggestion of ob- they could not do:it now, but they were as willing to do it as
jcction ? Not from this side of the House. The Noble ever their ancestors were. The Noble Lord had exhibited
Lord said—'• I have made this alteration in the hope of con. that spirit to-night. He told the House there was little
ciliating your favour, and now you are so unreasonable chance of their getting the BM through that or the other
a 3 to object to it." We never objected to the House. Let him proclaim that to eight millions of people.
animals., we objected to the principle. (Hear.) It had been proclaimed, and it would be proclaimed again.
Now, what can be more unfair than the course which the He ( Mr. O'C.) remonstrated against their continued in-
Noble Lord took in throwing out these insieuations justice, in asserting that whatever might be the population,
against us ? We said, "We object to a uniform franchise it was not to be tee basis of representation. lie did not
for all Ireland." We sa'd, "It you make leasehold the know what was meant by this paltry distinction between
only element of franchise there is a tendency on the part man and man, between Englishlnca and Irishmen,
of landlords to withhold leases ; you make no settlement of but he knew that a 501. franchise was net a
this question, because, if a disposition to withhold leases franchise, and he knew again that a 40s. franchise
exists, you are not affording any sufficient remedy for was an ancient franchise, not depending upon property.
the evil." And then the Noble Lord changes the qualiti- To talk about a 40s. franchise as a franchise by property,
cation from 5/. to 81. He does nothing to remedy our was insulting common sense. He had shown them a po-
objection to the principle of his franchise; but he charges puiation of 366,000 with only 925 voters. 'I hey had dc-
us with being unwilling to effect a conciliatory settlement prived Ireland of her fair share of representation. On the
because he has not gained our favour by making an altera- basis of property and population she ought to have 150 or
tion in degree without the smallest alteration in principle. 170 Members in that House. Ireland felt the indignity
These ere the grounds why we object to 81. equally that that was done to her. It was called a representation, but
we object to 51.—namely, that the main objection, it was not. No ; let them go on. They would not dis-
in point of principle, remains entirely unchanged appointment him; on the contrary, they would but ani-
by the alteration in the Bill.—( Hear, hear.) mate his hopes. He trusted he should yet live to sec a
But wo have another proposition to consider in addition Parliament that would do Ireland justice.
to that of the Noble Lord, the amendment proposed by
Lord HO WICK explained. He was greatly surprised
the Noble Lord the Member for Northumberland. The that, after his explanation, the Noble Lord should yet
Noble Lord, as I apprehend, brings forward a distinct and state that his proposition was one of disfranchisement.
specific proposition in opposition to that of the Govern- Its object and tendency were most directly the contrary.
ment. The Noble Lord's proposal I apprehend to be Sir R. PEEL sai Ihe was very sorry the Hon, and
this—that the Noble Lord will retain the beneficial in- Learned Gentleman (Mr. O'Connell) should think that
terest, that he will require as an essential condition for ore he had any intention to misrepresent anything that fell
franchise, and that, perhaps, the main franchise, a profit from him on a former occasion. He (Sir It Peel) had
derived from the land, that profit not to be ascertained by stated that i-n what the Host. and Learned Gentleman
the oath of the party, but to be determined by rating. said, in 1832, he had been making a prophecy
The Noble Lord did not propose that as an exclusive of the future operation of the Reform Bili,
franchise, but theNobleLord objects altogether—us I under- and he wished to show that be was unwarranted in attri-
stand him—to the proposal of the Government, and. Pr- buting those words to him, according to the report a his
fesses to substitute far that proposal something of the na- speech in Parliament. In 1832 the lion. and Learned
turn of that clause in England, which has been called the Gentleman said, " Now let us see what the present Bill
Chandos clause, that is to say, he will require the Pay- will effect, and I will give the House a few specimens of the
mcnt of a certain rent, but he will infer the rent front the numbers who will have a right to vote according to this
amount of rating. Thc extent of the required rent he measure ;" and then the Right Hon. and:Learned Gentle-
ban not defined, because he says he has not acquired the man went into details, with which he ( Sir R. Peel) would
information on which he can safely proceed. Now, from not trouble the House. He went on to say, " I therefore
the principle of the Noble Lord Ido not dissent. I say the same principle runs through the whole Bill,
think it is desirable to retain the beneficial interest ; I and that the whole Bill is as Conservative as the
think it is desirable to maintain a profit from the land as bitterest Conservative could desire."— (Hear, hear
an element of the county franchise.—(H ar, bear.) If it from Mr. O'Connell.) The Honourable and Learned
should he shown to me that, in the proposed change in Gentleman certainly gave a hit to the Conservatives, but
the Irish constituency a profit voted by rating is essen- he was no less severe upon the Whigs, for he went on to
tial, I should not be indisposed to take into considerarien tar, " Ireland has ever suffered from the Whigs. The
that other preposition of the Noble Lerd—namely, not to Whigs have given penal laws to Ireland, and much as
require a lease, but to require the payment of a certain they respect public liberty, in Ireland they exercie their
amount of rent by a tenant-at-will, acid thus to counteract power as if they sought only to exercise that vulgar pre-
that objection which is made at present from the unwilling- judice and rancour against Ireland which lam sorry to
ness of the Irish landlords to grant lenses ; hut I say is not confined to the lower orders."—( Cries of " Hear,
am not prepared to adopt the details of the Noble Lord's hear," and laughter from the Opposition Benches.)
measure. I will, however, vote with his amendment, be- And the Hon. Gentleman went on to say—" After the
cause it recognises the beneficial interest and an element statement I have made I may venture to say that the ut-
of the county franchise.—(Che.rs). I consider the Noble most number of voters in Ireland will not exceed :30,000 ;
Lord's amendment to the first clause to be exactly tante- even that requires an exorbitant stretch of the imagination,
mount to an abstract resolutiou of that kind. Suppose we and 3et this number is said to be an adequate constituency
had met the Noble Lord's Bill on his motion for going into for eight millions of people.'--( Hear, hear, and cheers
Committee by a resolution to the effect that mere occu- from the Opposition.)
parley could not entitle to the franchise, but that a profit Lord J. RUSSELL said that he only represented
from the land was indispensable in the county franchise— what the effect, of the Noble Lard's resolution would be—
suppose we had made such a motion, I consider it would that he did not impute to him tbe intention of disfranchis-
have been exactly tantamount to the amendment of the ing the people of Irela id. He would not say if
Noble Lord. A great principle was thus at issue between the the Noble Lord's proposition were adopted how
two Noble Lords. The Noble Lord, the Member for North- far it would go to form the basis of a good
umberlandt wished to maintain an essentisl element in constituency in Ireland ; but the Noble Lord should re-
the county franchise, a profit from the land or collect that the part of the amendment which he ( Lord J.
a beneficial interest, while the Noble Lrrd Russell) particularly objected to was the only part which
the Secretary for Ireland proposed to subvert the existing would receive the support of Hon. Gentlemen on the other
franchise, and to take occupation, as tested by rating, as the side of the House—namely, the ',reposition for the tenua-
only element of the franchise.—(Hear, hear.) I give my cial interest.
preference to the principle involved in the amendment of ®Lord HOWICK said that his
111 Noble Friend considered
the Noble Lord, the Member for Northumberland. why, bin ( Lord Howick's) amendment without reference to
then, do I not support his measure ? Because I do not what followed. lie (Lord Howick) might as well consider
think the Noble Lord is in a position which will enable the clause as it now stood withow, reference to the clauses
him sufficiently to adjust this question. It appears tome that which followed. If he did so he should say that the Noble
the simple substitution of the first franchise he proposes, Lord intended to disfranchise the whole of the electors of
namely, to require a certain amount of rating above the Ireland.
rent, would give a very extensive franchise. I think that The CoMmittee then divided, when there appeared—
simply to require rating above the rent would confer a very For the Clause
extensive franchise. It would be impossible, however, to Fiat the Amendment
propose what the required amount should be. lamat a 1 Majority in favour of the Amendment _-21