The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-13 00:00:00

were complete that the number of men employed
on the relief works would be considerably
reduced. He did not then intend to take
notice of the other measures then before the House
with respect to Ireland, because, although they were
great in their extent, they were not to be compared
with that measure to which he had alluded,
so totally •unexampled in its nature, and so appalling
in its magnitude.— (Hear.) To the other measures
he would feel it his duty to call the attention of the
House at a future period. He proposed now to
call the attention of the House to the proper
business of that evening, and before he did so, he
thought it right to say something with respect
to a representation which had been made to him
a few days since. A memorial had been presented
to him, signed by 64 Peers and 40 Members of that
House, upon the subject of the Government measures.
He thought it would be respectful to the parties whose
signatures were attached to that memorial, that
be should notice the representations before he
proceeded to the measure itself.—(Hear, hear.)
The sixty-four Peers and the forty Members of that
House formed a list of persons well acquainted with
Ireland; many of them had been long residents in that
country, and they all had considerable know-
ledge both of this country and of Ireland ; but he
confessed he could not agree to the resolutions which
they had adopt:A—resolutions which would pre-
clude that House from entertaining at all the
question of out-door relief.—(Loud cheers.) Their
third resolution was in the following words:—
" Resolved, that the principle of giving out-door
relief to the able-bodied labourers of Ireland,
has been condemned by Parliamentary Committees and
Government Commissions, as Nell as by public officers
appointed to consider the subject—that the experience
of the last twelve months, during which time several
have received out-door relief, although accompanied by
the relief ordinarily afforded to agricultural labourers,
demonstrates conclusively that the system of out-door
relief will produce the most fatal and lamentable conse-
quences." Now, with regard to the first portion of that
statement, he had nothing to say, as he did not
wish to go into any examination of the report of
the Committees and of Commissioners, but with
regard to the other be had two observations
to make. He did not think that the relief given during
the last twelve months, accompanied with labour, at all
conclusively proved that out door relief had
proved injurious, however serious the expense
might have been.—(Hear, hear.) He thought,
however, that the system which they had
been compelled to carry out, could not fail to be attended
with abuse ; but that observation could not with any
truth apply to the plan of the poor-law for rating the
land in Ireland. The House could not have failed to
have seen the great readiness with which advances had
been made from the Treasury for the purpo-e of carrying
on public works, and the great readiness which had
been shown in recommending the employment of per
sons upon these works—(Hear)—but the advances thus
made for the relief of the distress 'were not considered
to be made on the understanding that they were to be
immediately repaid by the rate-payers of Ireland ; they
were to be lo ked upon as sums advanced from the
public treasury. Amongst the reports which he had read there were
several which stated that the relief committees put upon the relief
works many of those who were best able to sustain themselves.
That overseers were appointed who were themselves farmers,
and possessed of land to a considerable extent. But it was
obvious that if they imposed a poor-rate, and that the desti-
tute were to be supported out of it, that then it would be the
interest of every ratepayer and every guardian to see that none
but the de titute were supported out of that fund. For that
reason he thought that the experience of last session was any-
thing but conc;usive. In the next place, there was nothing in
the plan proposed which made it probable that gratuitous re-
lief would be afforded. He should hold it, that the boards of
guardians and the poor-law commissioners would have the same
power as they possessed in England of making regulations for
the employment of those who received relief.
When an able-bodied labourer in England ap-
plied for relief, he had some work given to him,
to perform as a test of his destitution, and that work enabled
the guardians to limit the demand of relief given very much.
They did not intend to introduce any other system into Ire-
land. But there was another question to which he should
I refer back. He had the honour of conversing with the depu-
tation of peers and gentlemen, when they presented these reso-
lutions, and he stated to them that it was quite true that very
great abuses did exist in the English poor-law system, and
that even at the present moment the system was not without
its abuses. But his answer was, that they had seen a vast
number of people in a deep state of destitution, and they had
been told by men most conversant with the state of Ireland,
that although the destitution had been greatly aggravated by
the failure of the potato crop. yet famine was not a circum-
stance of rare occurrence, nay, that it was an annual visitant.
What was then to become of the destitute poor, if they were
net to be provided for by out-door relief, when the workhouse
was full ? When they objected to his plan in the House of
Commons, what other plan did they propose instead of it ? -
(Hear, hear.) And to the question, which seemed really not
to be expected—(Laughter)—he got an answer from one
member of the deputation, that private charity in Ireland was
such, and so extensive, that it was not likely that any person
would be allowed to starve. And another member of that de-
putation immediately observed, that he did not think that,
with regard to any change which had taken place, with regard
to the cultivation of the potatoe, that the same extension of
private charity would be hereafter required. He fully agreed
with the last member of the deputation. He fully admitted
that there had been immewe extent of private charity in Ire-
land, but it had been from the poor to the very poor.—( Hear,
hear. )• It had b'en charity from the small farmer to the
destitute labourer—of the farmer and resident gentry generally
to the mendicant, and those who asked their alms until the
1 passing of the Poor-law Act for Ireland—which he had the
honour to introduce, and which he now proposed to extend.
He did not believe that there was any burden whatever on the
large proprietor who did not choose to contribute to private cha
rity—there was no demand whatever on the great absentee pro-
prietor who did not see those miserable objects about him. There
was no demand or burden whatever on him if he did not
choose, and he might avoid altogether—he would not say ob-
ligation, but any payment of the kind. Well, then, if this
were the case. lie asked that question again. Seeing that hi-
therto the destitute in Ireland who had not been supported in
the workhouse had been supported by the voluntary charity of
the classes resident in Ireland, and chiefly by the poorer
classes, the farmers had contributed a portion of their po-
tatoes or meal, whatever it might be, to the support of the
mendicant who called at his house, he asked, when the cul-
tivation of the potato would be greatly diminished, so as to
alter the social state of the country altogether—he asked, to
whom were the destitute poor of Ireland to look for support?—
( Hear, hear.) He must say, that this deputation at
once rejected the notion that they could come on
another occasion to the Imperial Exchequer, and ask for
further loans, advances, or grants. He must do them
the justice to say, that not one of them expected that
such would be the case, but he must say that the economical
question still remained. What were they to expect, or how
were they to expect, these persons to be provided for? He
really knew no way in which that could be done unless they
had resort to the measure which was then before the House.
Guarded with all the force and seconded by all the fences the
House might think requisite. He still said, that if a person
was starving, and had no resources. " let him be relieved in the
workhouse, if their is room in the workhouse, and let him be
relieved out of the workhouse if that workhouse is so full as to
be unable to relieve him inside."—(Cheers.) In making that
proposition to the House, he thought he could place it on very
lair grounds. He would state in the first place, that no one
could accuse Parliament with having acted niggardly in Ire-
' land's extremity. l, o one, whether he looked at the contribu-
tions made from the collected taxes of the country compulsorily
raised from the people of Great Britain, or the collection
of voluntary gifts, whether they considered the millions pro-
posed to be voted, or the hundreds of thousands of pounds col-
lected from private sources—whether they viewed the one or
the other, no ono could accuse the people of Great Britain with
want of generosity or liberality. He was justified in saying
this, but he would hardly have stated it, had there not been re-
peated charges made—not against the Government, for they
were a fair target to attack—but against Parliament and the
people of Great Britain, who, he must say, deserved no such
treatment.—( Loud cheers.) He thought that in the next
place he should state, that what the Government proposed to do
as a permanent law for Ireland, was a course which they in
England thought to be consistent with their wealth, consistent
with their sense of security, and consistent with the regard due
to the rights of property.—( Hear, hear.) They in England had
for a long time had a poor-law not only for the sick and the
infirm, but also provided that the able-bodied should be set to
work, and so doing, should receive relief ; and lest it might be
said that the abuses of the poor-law were continually com-
plained of, he might state that a reform had been made, and
though many thought that this reform had been severe and
stern, yet during the ten years the poor-law had been in opera- 1
tion, the people of England and Wales had contributed no less
than 49,000,000 i. for the relief of the poor.—(Loud cries of
" Hear, hear.") True, he believed, that not only in a reli-
gious or moral view, but on purely economical principles, and
to ensure the safety and security of the country, it was good
economy to lay out this amount of 50,000,0001. on the poor of
England and Wales.—( Hear, hear.) He had here various
extracts from different reports, showing the number of persons
who had received relief at various times under the poor-law of
England. He found that, in the year 1840, the total
number of poor relieved was 1,199,000; in 1841,
the total number relieved was 1,299,000, being an
increase of 100,003; in 1842 the number relieved was
1,429,000, and some odd hundreds, making some nine per cent.
of the population of the country. And the mode in which this
number was increased, and the reason why they were increased,
was this—that during these years they were visited by a defi-
cient harvest, and there were numbers in want of food and of
employment. Immediately that took place the rates were
enormously increased. He had a statement there which was
taken from a speech of the Hon. Member for Bolton, made,
he believed, in the year 1849. The Hon. Member stated
with regard to the mortality, that in the year 1839 the number
of persons who died in Leicestershire was 1 in 48, and in the
year 1840, 1 in 39; in Nottingham, in the year 1839, the
mortality was 1 in 47, and in 1840, 1 in 35 ; in Lancashire,
the deaths in 1839 were lin 35, and in 1840, lin 31. But
the poor rates which, in 1835, 1836, and 1831, had been
11,9001., had risen in 1842 to 16,7451. Now that was the
mode in which the English law provided for the destitute
in this country in years of distress, similar to
what had taken place in Ireland, with this diffe-
rence, that now, there was more than ordinary distress felt
over their empire, with a corresponding want of food and em-
ployment. What he, therefore, proposed to the House was,
that with regard to Ireland, with regard to her future and per-
manent condition, to take advantage of the seasons in which
they had good harvests, and tolerable employment, with the
view of meeting their distress and destitution arising from de-
ficient harvests ; he proposed that the same mode of relief, and
the same nature of relief which was given in England, should
be given to Ireland, under similar circumstances. He did not

mein to propose that the Irish should be a measure identical in
every way with the English law ; he did not mean that those
provisions which were connected with the abuses of the old
law, should be introduced into Ireland. He thought that in
introducing this law into Ireland, they had a great advantage
seemed in the workhouses already eeablished in that country.
But they took care when they first introduced the poor-law
into Ireland, to establish workhouses in the first instance, and
therefore, the proprietors, and guardians of the unions of Ire-
land, would always have that test ; they would be enabled to
apply that test, and to say to the poor, " if you are destitute
and in want, come into the workhouse, and you shall be pro-
'ided for there." He could not think himself, that when the
infirm
e and aged . were removed from the workhouse,
the workhouse would aot be fully sufficient to relieve
wants ofhethteh poor, except in times of extraordinary
dinary distress
distress, and
cernmodation it would be power
likewise that if in times of extraor-
given to increase the workhouse ac-
test against imposture and the
useful in obtaining a further
part
of
this question,
demands for idleness. But
there was another
with
hirow, ich he meant only briefly
wish to touch upon in detail, androest9n' one which he did not
must say, a very cogent
to refer, but which form
great that no
reason.for, pressing this Bill upon hethe onse. He quite ad-
mitted that the present calamity had been so

attempt under the poor-law with the population which existed
in Ireland at the commencement of the year 1846 would have
been fully equal to meet the emergency. He did believe,
most unfortunately for Ireland, that there had, under the
connivance of landlords, of tenants and labourers grown up a
miserable destitute population, an immense array of persons,
whose numbers and whose dreadful condition, formed the sub-
. ject of reports of Commissions to which he had referred upon
other occasions. He did think that, with this state of the po-
pulation existing in parts of Ireland, it would have been im-
possible for the proprietors and landlords of the country to
have provided any direct measure of relief during the pre
sent year; but he must' add to this, that although great nuua-
hers of the resident gentry had done their utmost—although
they had exerted their utmost energies—although they had
been content to forego their usual mode of living, and many of
the expenses which were necessarily, given for the education of
their farnili s—he did not think that, taken on the whole,
taking residents and absentees, every person who participated
in the thirteen millions rental of Ireland, had exerted
himself as he should have done under the circumstances.
He collected this from the frequent statements which were
made, that while the resident gentry bad munificently contri-
buted, and were giving their one, two, or three hundred
pounds, as they could afford, that too many of those proprietors
to whom letters had been sent had not contributed anything
towards the relief of the distress. Upon that ground he said
in the first place that property had not done all that it should have
done, and he must say that there were many among the resident
proprietors who should go further in the way of contributing to
those expenses, further in the way of abstinence from those
things which might be called the luxuries of life—( Hear,
hear)—than they had hitherto done. He would not go fur-
ther into this subject at present. He fund himself bound to
state thus much ; he felt it as an evil pressing upon his mind,
and he thought that those were reasons, if such were the im-
pressions of others, why they should rot leave the destitute
poor of Ireland, in future years, to hazard and to dangers such
as they had been exposed to in the present year.—(Cheers.)
He was told, indeed, that with respect to some parts of
Ireland, the population was so great, and the rental so inade-
quate for the subsistence of the destitute poor, that proprietors
must altogether b. oak down under the obligation which this
law would impose upon them. He did not believe that such
would be the case. He believed in the capacity of the soil of
Ireland, he believed in the willingness to labour of the people
in Ireland—( Loud cheers)—he believed that the soil of Ireland
might be made far more productive than it was, and that the
general produce of Ireland might be made mnch greater.—
( Hear, hear.) He confessed that, as the matter now stood,
the payments to the destitute poor might take a larger propor-
tion of the rentals than was obtained. He did not think, how-
ever, that those payments amounted to a fair proportion of the
rental obtained, and he thought that they might at least
attempt to give some further proportion than had been given
of late years to the support of her destitute poor.—( Hear,
hear.) He found that in the year 1841 the expenditure for the
relief and maintenance of the poor of England was 5,039,7331.,
being at the rate of Is. 7id. in the pound on the rental of the
property; and that in Ireland the annual value of property
amounted to 13,:a94,2341., bat the expenditure for the support
of the poor was only 298,813/i, being at the rate of bid. in the
pound on the annual value of Irish property. But let not any one
suppose for a moment that he quoted these facts for the pur-
pose of reproaching the owners of property in Ireland, who, it
was right to state, paid something under 6d. in the pound. If
they were not, however, required by the law to pay more, and
if higher rates had been imposed, the Poor-law Commissioners
would have decided that it was an illegal act ; he quoted
them simply to show, that there remained property in
Ireland which might be further assessed for the re-
lief of the destitute poor, and on the owners of
which they had a perfect right to call for further assistance,
more especially during the prevalence of the awful calamity
which had devastated that unhappy 'country. When the im-
position of this additional tax has become much greater than
at present, and was found to be a burden, it would then be
time for them to come forward and complain ; but the present
was not the moment for them to come forward to urge that
on behalf of its reduction.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to a
subject to which much public attention had been directed—the
union of Skibbereen—he wished to say a few words.
Every one had been shocked by the accounts which had been
received of the deaths which had occurred in that town, and
of the number of persons who were in the most miserable con-
dition, but little removed from death. A gentleman who called
upon him (Lord J. Russell) and who was well worthy of belief,
handed him a letter from a person residing in that uart of Ire-
land, which stated that the pr perty there was rated at 98,000/.,
but that the actual value of the property was 130,000/. a year.
That until last September, no rate above sixpence in the
pound had been levied ; that it was increased to
ninepence in the ponnd in the course of that month,
but that that rate had never been levied.--( Hear.) Now
there, he thought, was an instance, and the correspondence
furnished many others, that even under the present law there
had not been that due assessment for the relief of the poor
which ought to have been made on those possessed of property
in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He said, therefore, that these were
the reasons for the enactment of the Bill which he had proposed.
—( Hear. ) He was aware, that in passing such a Bill he was
asking them to frame a law different, in fact, in
many important respects from that law which
was now considered to be the law of Scotland.
The law of Scotland, as enacted at the time of the revolution of
1688, made a provision which would have been applicable to
able-bodied poor—( Hear, hear)--if a different interpretation
had not been put upon it by the courts of justice, who decided
that it should be confined to the infirm and the sick, and it had
been so confined; but there had not been in Scotland of past
years, or even during the present year, any ease which should
induce him to wish to alter or to amend that Act which
was introduced by the -Right Honourable Gentleman
the Member for Dorchester (Sir J. Graham) two years ago.
He believed that that Act was conformable to the feelings of
the Scotch people, he believed that the good feeling of all
classes in Scotland would induce them at any period of distress
to give immediate assistance to each other. He knew that at
the present moment many proprietors in Scotland had very
nearly ruined themselves by their benevolent effo.ts to save
their people from starving. He believed that they considered
that as an obligation on them, if not legally, yet morally, and
every exertion was made in Scotland to save the people from
destitution. He thought that in Ireland the law ought to be
more conformable to that of England. He did not think that
the people of England would be safe if there were not a la.,
in this country which entitled the able-bodied to relief. He
was much concerned on the reformation of the poor-law—in
the passing of the Poor-law Amendment Act of the year 1834
—bat he did not remember that at any time when they
were reforming that law of the present day, they ever contem-
plated depriving the starving able-bodied poor of their chance
of obtaining relief in any part of the country. He believed
himself that that arrangement was necessary to
the peace and security of this country, arid be
believed that it would be found necessary to the
peace and security of Ireland. They must expect a great
change as soon as other cultivation should have taken the place
of the potato, and many of those who had holdings to which
they were attached solely for the crop of potatoes they afforded,
would take the place of able-bodied labourers, and from time
to time be thrown into a state of destitution. He believed

hat such a law as he then proposed would induce the pro-
prietors and farmers to give a greater quantity of employment
than they could otherwise do. He believed that when they
saw that those men must be maintained, they would say they
are able.bodied men, they must be maintained, and they had
better do good work in producing food for the future harvest
than do useless work and be paid for it out of our rates. This
much, therefore, the farmer and the landlord would increase
the employment given to the able-bodied population of this
country. There were some other alterat;ons, to which he
needed scarcely to allude, which he proposed to introduce into
the Bill before the House. There was one which had pro-
duced in Ireland, as it had produced when he had stated it in
that House, considerable dissatisfaction. It was the proposal
that one half of all the boards of guardians should be formed
of magistrates, being ex-eicio guardians. He believed
that this objection was founded on an old belief, to which
he saw one of the Bishops of the Roman Catholic church still
clung. It was the supposition that the magistrates were hos-
tile to their religious rites, and hostile to the political freedom
of the t ountrv. If he thought that this bad feeling existed,
and that the body of the magistrates of the country were con-
sidered by the tanners and labourers as their enemies, he
should doubt the propriety of placing the same body equal in
number on the boards of guardians. But he believed they
were on the eve of a great change in Ireland, and he thought
the resolutions he had referred to earlier in his address proved
this. These resolutions of public meetings held in Ireland,
with other accounts which from time to time he had received
were symptoms of a great change. He thought that
the Protestant classes both in England and Ire-
land had for a long time suspended their claims
to superior consideration. The Protestants of England had
had no adversary to deal with, but with regard to Ireland they
were in immediate collision with the mast numerous class of
their fellow citizens. Between these classes had grown
up; the one endeavouring to maintain due attention and con-
sideration to their claims for pre-eminence, and at the same
time securing the constitution cf the country, and the other
class, thinking that they were justly entitled to equal pri-
vileges with the former in the land of their birth.—( Hear,
hear.) But he trusted that this question, or, at least, the
most of it, was already solved, and that the whole of it was
in the fair way of resolution, not only by Legislative enact-
ments, but by the progress of national feeling and disposition.
Hear, hear.) If he thought that this or any other Bill
which he proposed would set class against class, or clergy
against clergy, he would pause ere he proposed them, but he
did hope they were in the transition state, and that though
their might be some reaction, the time would soon come when
all would act together for the benefit of Ireland.—(Cheers,)
And seeing these symptoms, he hoped that with respect to the
boards of guardians, and with respect to the other relations
of society in Ireland, that they should see, Tory and Whig,
Radical and Repealer, differing, as no doubt they would do,
on political questions, yet blended together in social compact,
prepared to act for the common weal, and above all to distri-
bute justice, without any bias from political feeling.—( Hear,
hear.) It was with this hope, and not with any view
to give any supremacy to the ex-qfficio guardians, that
he had introduced the last clause into this Bill.
It was stated that there were in the Cabinet two, or three, or
four Irish proprietors, who were supposed to influence its deli-
berations favourably towards property. Such has not the fact.
Those very members of the Cabinet were parties with him in pro-
posits. the Bill.—(Cheers.) They were prepared tobear the bur-
den which might be imposed upon them, and it was with their
sanction and high authority that he asked the House to go into
Committee upon the Bill.
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN said that the statement made
by the First Minister of the Crown was one which called for
their most serious consid, ration. The Noble Lord had stated
that the expenditure on the destitute for this year would be
twelve millions of money, and that the rental of the country
only exceeded that expenditure by one million.
Money had been spent, not upon fertilising the land, but
upon useless works, and for that he blamed the Government.
Colonel Jones had asked who were the labouring poor ?—there
was no answer to that question until the 26th of October, and
then came out the circular respecting the 61. rating. That
was a point which should have been earlier ascertained, how-
ever those were the two points for which he blamed the Go-
vernment, although he was willing to make great allowances
for the difficulty of the Noble Lord's position. He considered
that the experiment of a poor-law should be tried in Ireland,
and he was therefore willing to lend him his support.
He could freely say that the warmest feeling, and sympathy,
and charity of this country was extended to Ireland, and he
hoped that these feelings would unite the two countries more
and more, and remove any bitterness of feeling or animosity
which might have existed. The NoVe Lord had referred to
the English law as a standard for the Irish law. He (Mr. S.
O'Brien) had before stated, and, as he thou4ht, wisely, that he
had rather take the English poor-law, clause by clause, and
letter by letter for Ireland, than any other law. The electoral
divisions were even now, practically, parishes. There was,
then, a Bill before the House with reference to the relief of the

smaller tenants of England from rates, and he would be finite
satisfied if the Noble Lord would take the poor law and apply
it equally to both countries. Let them have one system of
settlement and one system of exemption—one regulating
power for the law in both countries, and they would have the
best secur.ty for its management, and the bey remedy
for its errors.—(Year, hear.) As in English Mem-
ber, he could not say more ; he had alreaay stated
the fact to the Irish Members, and he believed that if the pro-
position had been earlier adopted, Ireland would have been in
a better position. If it was the wish of the House, as he sup-
posed it was, he should apply himself to the consideration of
the principles of the measure, and their immediate effect. He
fully agreed with the Noble Lord that the principle of out-door
relief was required in Ireland, and also that one-half of the