The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-06 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVNINGL_

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 5.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool-
sack at Five o'clock.
EXCHEQUER-BILLS AND RAILWAY DIVI-
DENDS.
•
Lord BROUGHAM moved a return of the
Ist of Fe-
prices of Exchequer-bills, of
ai o
bruary, 1846, to the Ist of Febdmor
the
ru aryn ,
railway stock 1847, and for
a return of the dividends p_
He also moved for a
• during the'. same
ri shareseproprietors.
re turn of the names Poefriaoldl4l7h,ewhhooldweerrseolyirashilpwraeyp
on the Ist of February, 8_
His object was not one lot merenitteticnunrinosfitaye,simbunt
aatins itg
i
appeared that there was some
Ireland with England,right
thmaitthtiksninefwormheaw-
.n
tion should be given h.
ot rwd u
e that but
they might
. to legislate. Ile desired tis the more as he found that
a statement had been made last night in another place,
the object, the express object, of which was to raise the
price of railway shares by distributing money through-
out the country, so that those shares which stood at 1002
might be raised to 2001. He would take that oppor-
tunity of vindicating himself from a grievous misrepre-
sentation. He did not generally care about misrepre-
sentation; but he had been so painfully assailed by so
many letters, that he wished to put himself right,
-for he was described as one of the most cruel and
hard-hearted individuals in existence. It was stated
that he wished to raise the price of bread. What he
actually said was, that it was better that bread should be
• dear rather than cheap in a time of scarcity ; for if
wheat were to be brought to market cheap at such a
- period the whole produce would quickly be bought up;
and thus, if there was a scarcity in the month
of February, that scarcity would become fa-
mine in the month of June. The very words he
used were, that he would rather bread was dear
than cheap, lest scarcity should become dearth, and
dearth be converted into famine. His Noble Friend
..(the Duke of Rutland) had put his establishment on
three-fifths of their usual allowance, and he had done
the same. The question of price did not affect such
persons as his Noble Friend and himself, but it did
naturally affect the poor labourer, and therefore he de-
sired that the bread should be kept up, so that the whole
of the supplies should be exhausted before they got the
'fresh harvest in. He thought that in times of distress,
especially, public men should not be misrepresented.
Lord STANLEY perfectly agreed with his Noble
'Friend (Lord Brougham) that public men should not be
misrepresented, but he had stated that a great and com-
prehensive measure which was introduced the other
night in another place was brought in solely
for the purpose of raising the price of shares.
A more frivolous misrepresentation could not be made.
He did not intend to stop then to urge the policy of the
measure of his Noble , Friend, because, unless the
interposition of the Crown were exercised to
pass it into a law, without the intervention of
their Lordships, it would shortly come before them
for discussion, but he could not forbear stating that
the object of the Bill was not to raise the value of rail-
way shares in Ireland, but for the purpose of promoting
its interests, without adding one shilling to the taxes of
the people of this country.—(Hear, hear.) It was for
carrying out works of great public utility, which,.with-
out the aid of the State, must be discontinued at the
very time when they were most necessary—for the
purpose of encouraging and improving the condition of
the agricultural labourers of that country, and for fur-
nishing the means for giving constant employment to a
large portion of the population for the next four years
at least, but not withdrawing them from agricultural
employment by giving them too easy or too well-paid
work. The object was to facilitate improvements in the
internal communication of the country, at a time when
capital from private individuals was checked, on account
of the deplorable condition of the people. Entertaining
great respect for his Noble Friend in another place (Lord
G. Bentinck), and for his Noble and Learned Friend in
that House (Lord Brougham), he could notallow it to go
forth that the scheme propounded by his Noble Friend
had for its object to increase the value of railway shares,
because it had for its object, as he had said, the promo-
tion of great national improvements of great public
advantage, without casting any additional burdens on
the people of this country.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord BROUGHAM thought his Noble Friend must
have been attending to something else, and not being
able to listen to two things at once, had attributed a
statement to him which he did not make. He did not say
that the object of the Bill was for the purpose of bene-
fiting private individuals by enabling them to sell their
shares at a higher value-than they could at present. Un-
doubtedly the groundwork of the measure was to apply
capital to Irish railways, and to enable railway owners
to sell their railway shares. What he stated
was, that fofievery 1001. worth of shares sold out another
1001. worth would be bought in. He had not read the
debate of last night—in fact, he was not often in the
habit of reading them—but a friend had informed hire
that the Bill would enable the holders of shares to sell
them, and to invent their capital in others. He had no
monomania against railways; he only wanted to see
them carried out at the expense of their promoters, and
not at the expense of others.
The Duke of RICHMOND could not allow the mea-
sure to be disposed of in the preterit manner without
saving a few words on the subject. It was a measure
calcarated to be of more permanent service than any
measure which had evsr been introduced since he had been
in that House. It appeared to him to commence
at the right end—(Cheers)—and would induce capital
to flow from this country to Ireland, and the conse-
quence would be that the Irish people would consume
more exciseable articles, be better able to live on the
produce of their own agriculture; it would improve the
morals of the people, and it would also be the means o
enabling them to consume more manufacturer
goods, and thereby- extending the home markets, which
after all, wes the f:undation of the great prosperity of
this country. He de/ not oppose the motion of hi
Nobl:3 and Learned Friend, and he honed that then
would be enough English and Scotch dhmbers tc
carry that Bill through who were not in the least
connected with railways. (Cheers.) The pool,le
of England were not ealed upon to give money by this
measure to the pyoplo of Ireland; the measure was one
which would take nothing out of the pockets of the
pepple of England, but would give support to the people
of Ireland.—(Cheers.)
Earl FITZWILLIANI said that he had nothing to
offer in opposition to the motion of the Noble and
Learned Lord. lie regretted the tone of the conversa-
tion which had taken place on the subject. It might be
considered that the Noble and Learned Lord had some
sidelong view in wishing to have the names of ail
those persons who might be possessed of shares in Irish
railways. He was aware, on looking to the votes
of the House of Commons, that a measure had been in •
troduced into that House for the purpose of facilitating
the making of railroads in Ireland. He then looked
anxiously to see whether the B:11 was brought in by the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government ; he
was disappointed, however, to see ,that the Noble
Lord was not the author of the Bill ; but
when he saw, not from the official aceeunte but from
accounts, though not official, perhaps quite as accurate,
that the Bill was in such very able hands as the Nob'e
Lord's who had introduced it, he was much gretified.—
(Loud cheers.) The Noble Lord had exhibited zeal,
industry, and ability, which had entitled him
to the gratitude of the Irish people and the
united empire. He wished that the measure had been
in the hands of the Government, and that they had
had the credit of introducing such a crowning measure
as had been introduced.—(Cheers.) He hoped there
would be no interference with the prerogative to pre-
vent the measure passing.—(Cheers.) He came down
to the House determined to express his opinions upon
the subject ; and, considering the relation in which he
stood with her Majesty's Government, he felt it his duty
to state to them what course he meant to pursue.
He could not conceive that, as they were not the au-
thors of the measures, it would not be agreeable to
them that he should rise and express his opinions in
favour of the measure.—(Cheers.) In whatever hands
the measure may be in, when it came up to their Lord-
ships' House, he was determined to give it his most
strenuous and undivided support. He certainly thought
that the Railway system should be in the hands of the
Government rather than of individual members or com-
panies, who would be supposed always to study their
own interests rather than the great interests of the whole
country, and especially Ireland in its present state.
He had deep rooted opinions that the whole railway
system should be in the hands of the Government. It
was a most anomalous thing, that all the means of
travelling should be in the hands of some
great companies. These opinions he had entertained
and expressed, for many years, to their Lordships.
He hoped the Government would take the measure into
their own hands, as he believed it would be ofsmore use
than any other measure which had been brought under
the notice of the House by her Majesty's Ministers.
Now he was not going to express any opinion, either for
or against the landlords of Ireland, but he thought
that the measure which contemplated the im-
provement of the country through the instru-
mentality of one class could not possibly produce
those beneficial results which they ought to
contemplate. He thought, connected with this great
measure of railways, there ought to be a system of
emigration, if not carried on, at least largely assisted,
Government.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that
the persons employed upon railways ought to
have the opportunity of emigrating gradually
and he was decidedly an advocate for some gradual sys-
tem of emigration going on throughout the whole
ofsur-
face the land. Upon these grounds he was
decidedly of opinion- that instead of these
railways being intrusted to private companies, they
ought to be taken up and constructed by Government at
the public expanse...a(
The marquis of LAI
Hear, hear.)
SDOWNE said he did not in-
tend to oppose the
hayreturn, nor did be apprehend that
the motion would have given rise to any discussion.
After what had fallen, however, from the Noble*Lord,
who had just resumed
to say a word or two. particular preroga-
tive the Noble Earl had alluded
most constitutional prerogatives
instance injudicious
Crown, and one which it would attached the
and unwise to abandon in any
it bad not been interposed to stop this measure' t
Majesty's
whether it would be exercised by the Crownursee'eutliat
depend upon the opinion entertained by her
advisers as to the drgree of mischief the measure
was likely to produce upon the public interest.
He was surprised that this observation should have been
made on a motion like this, anti especially one which
had been made without notice.
The Earl of WINCEIILSEA could not refrain from
making a few observations, for no man felt more deeply
the distress of his fellow-countrymen than ho
did ; and while he gave all credit to her :Ala-
jesty's Government for their intentions, and while
he fully appreciated the difficulties with which they
had to contend, he still must say that the measures
which they proposed to introduce would never prove of

any permanent utility to the people of Ireland. Th
population of that country had been doubled within
the last twenty years, and it was perfectly clear that the
land could never provide sufficient employment for the
poor of that country, and they would be driven into some
extensive measure of colonisation to relieve the country of
its surplus population. He had always advocated
some system of colonisation, yet if it were to be
carried out to any effective extent, it would require
an outlay of at least 4,000,0001. or 5,000,0001. per an-
num. This was not a greater sum than the plan pro-
posed by his Noble Friend in the other House, and he
did think that if that plan were adopted, it would, by
facilitating intercourse throughout the county, be
productive of excellent results, and return a
large advantage to this country for the outlay
that was made to effect it. Yet, at the same time, he still
believed that the Government would be driven into
some great and comprehensive scheme for the perma-
nent improvement of Ireland.
TRANSPORTATION.

In reply to they Marquis of SALISBURY,
Earl GREY stated that the papers on transportation
would be laid on the table in the course of a few days.
EDUCATION.

The Marquis of LANSDO WNE, after laying some
papers on the table, proceeded to state to their Lord•
ships the nature of the minute which the Privy Coun-
cil had lately adopted with respect to education. He
said he might have laid the minute on the table without
offering any remarks with respect to it, as the altera-
tions which it proposed would be carried out without
the intervention of either Houses of Parliament ; but
he thought it right, as early in the Session as possible,
to put their Lordships in possession of the views which
her Majesty's Government entertained on the subject of
the education of the people. He confessed it would
have given great satisfaction to him if he had been
enabled to state that the Government were prepared
with a plan of public education for the people of this
country, so large, so comprehensive as at once to put the
population, with respect to education, in that condition
in which it was in some parts of Europe, in which an
uneducated child was an almost solitary exception, and
in which it might be said, " that education was con-
sidered universally necessary." But he was bound to
state that it had not appeared to her Majesty's Govern-
ment that they could practically effect a system of
education upon a large and universal scale. It un-
doubtedly might have been attempted, but it could only
have been attempted with serious, if not with over-
whelming, difficulties. It could they thought only be
made comprehensive, or, at least, so comprehensive as
to include in the same plan, and in the same schools,
placed under the control of the Government, not only
all conditions of the people, but of all religious denomi-
nations ; and the longer he had observed the progress of
the question, the more convinced he had become of the
difficulties which would have to be encountered in
attempting a system'of education on a scale so enlarged,
and with views so extensive. These difficulties were
not new, and he appealed in corroboration of this to his
Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Brougham), who had
been so honourably and so valuably connected with the
progress of education, and stands connected,with the pro-
motion of a general system of education, such as her Ma-
jesty's Government would consider proper to be sup-
ported. It might 'ee said that that which individuals
had tailed to do the Government might effect. This
was not so in the case of education, as all the efforts of
Government would be met by feelings of mistrust and
jealousy among two classes of the people, one of whom,
consisting of perhaps the most pious and conscientious
persons, objected to education being carried on at all in
a mixed school ; the other class being that not unim-
portant one which deprecated entirely all interference of
the state in matters of education. When he stated that
these were two powerful classes of objectors, he did not
mean to say that their opinions were at all universal.
It could not, however, be supposed that there were not
many learned and religious persons who considered that
although the dangerous path to learning should not be
trod without the light of religious instruction to
guide them, still he thought that it was
quite possible to educate under the same roof
children of different denominations, and holding
various religious opinions. The Government had there-
fore come to the conclusion that it was not expedient
to introduce any general or extended measure of educa-
tion. It did, however, appear to the Government, that it
was necessary to give, under various heads, some assist-
ance towards the establishing and extension of
education beyond that which had hitherto been
set apart for that purpose, and also to stimu-
late efforts of those individuals and societies under
whose patronage the schools had already been supported.
Their Lordships would be glad to know what had been
the operation of the existing Bill. He was glad to say
that there had been a progressive increase in the grants
that had been made between the )ears 1833 and 1846.
The grants during that period amounted to 490,0001,
and this sum had secured education annually for 700,000
children. All the schools to which grants were made
had been inspected, and he was glad to say that a num-
ber of schools who did not require grants had petitioned
the Council to have inspectors sent down to
examine into the condition of their institutions. In
addition to those included in the grants he bad
mentioned, there were a number of diocesan
and normal schools that had received assistance.
We now come to the suggestions which, though not of
great importance, yet they sit in the right direction.
The first was, that the inspection be more frt:quent, and
that the establishment should be sufficient for inspection
once a year. To insure this, the addition of three
or four inspectors was made. The next subject to
which he would invite the attention of their Lordships
was the reports from the schools. Most of these reports
showed one great difficulty, and that was not only a de-
ficiency of masters competent to their duties, but also of
assistants fit for their duties. It was, therefore, proposed
that in all good schools the masters should be allowed to
t apprentices from among the best boys, and for eac
apprentice the master should have an allowance granted
the guardians, inspectors, and visitors, having the righ
of recommending those boys who were most fit
for the duty, and this a regular supply of school-
masters instructed and trained for th-ir position.
It was proposed, beyond this, that from the apprentices
so trained for the purpose of adding to the general stock
of schoolmasters, a certain number should be selected
for the purpose of entitling that number, having con-
ducted themselves well, and usefully contributed to carry
on the discipline of the school—he said a certain num-
ber would be selected for the purpose of having exhibi-
tions for normal schools, thus constituting another
element in thir progress towards the station of school-
masters. But not only was it their intention to grant
these exhibitions, but, as there would be probably
a certain number of persons intended for
the office of schoolmasters that might not
be after all, although they might have con-
ducted themselves properly, although they might
have taken pains to avail themselves of the ad-
vantages offered them, although they might have bene-
fited to a certain extent, still after all this training, they
might not be found fitted fur the office of schoolmasters,
and it was, therefore, proposed that an arrangement
should be made in which he had the satisfaction of
stating that the Noble Lord at the head of the Treasury,
and his Hight Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, had expressed their entire concurrence. An
arrangement had b: en made by which a certain
number of these apprentices, not becoming school-
masters, should be entitled to employment in the
revenue departments of the state. This would con-
stitute a double encouragement for these young men, by
which a greater number might be qualified to attain the
office of a schoolmaster ; and if found unfitted for that
office, still Government would not lose the benefit of
their services in another of its departments. There
would be of course for the purpose of carrying out this
system, a periodical examination of the pupils, and this,
also, would have the effect of advancing them in their
progress towards that office. He now came to another
subject which he considered must be materially altered
to affect the general course of education.—(Hear.)
There was no class of men in this country who had more
chains upon the gratitude of the country, or who were
better entitled to the attention and favour of the Govern-
ment than the schoolmasters of England. There was no
class of men more unlikely to reap, in a worldly
sense, the reward of their toils and exertions.
Many of those who had considerable influence over the
character and interests of the children, saw them ad-
vancing to prosperity while they were themselves
chained down to their laborious exertions in a state of
hopelessness and without requital, and, in many in-
stances, dispirited by their want of MOMS ; their feel-
ings chilled by want, and checked by penury. It was,
therefore, proposed that a small provision should be
made for the schoolmasters in their old ago ; and that
any person who could show that they had for fifteen
years conducted, in an unexceptionable manner, a
public school should be entitled to the provision.
—(Heer, hear.) This provision would be made
upon the reports of the inspectors made to
the Treasury at the period of their visitation.
It was proposed, in connexion with these schools to es
tablish places of industry, or workshops, so that children
during their leisure hours might receive instructions in
some useful craft, and the gentlemen in the neighbour-
hood would be stimulated to give their assistance and
co-operation to those schools ; but it would also tend to
obviate what had always been felt as a great evil,
namely, that of parents withdrawing their children from
the school, from what they considered uselesst earning,
with a view of putting them to something which they
thought would be more useful to their families. He
trusted, however, that the introduction of this system
would effect a great change. Some of these schools
are indeed already established, and are very successful
at Ethe present moment. He was happy to say
that he had found a very general co-Aeration
and desire for improvement among all the ministers of
religion, but he should not be doing his duty if ho did
not declare among all denominations he had received the
most able assistance from the clergy of the Church

of England. Not a day passed withOiit receiving letters
in
struction
for complaining of the want of such
for the children of their parishes, and he was happy to
say, that the exertions they had made had been emi-
nently successful in alleviating the evil. An excellent
account of the benefit which was wrought by this diffu-
sion of education was given in the pamphlet of a clergy-
man named Dawes, who had succeeded in establishing
school in his parish, and had so completely altered the
character of the place, that whereas it had been distin-
guished for vice and immorality ten years before it was
how equally eminent for the reduction of crime, and the
improvement of the whole of its inhabitants, lie had
also
succeeded by the success of his schools, that he had
completely broken down prejudice, and the feeling of
ay
class had been done away with, the farmers sent
their children to the same schools as those which their
labourers attended. Anditwasen a fact, that farmers
from distant parts sent their
hchildren to board in the
might have village, in order that they
benefit of at-
tending on Mr. Dawes a selools.e.T.lll' F. was great.
triumph. This was at King's Salford, 1
This statement he (the Marquis of Lansdowne)
made, because it WAS a striking proof of tho bonotits acf

education. As another instance of the benefit of these
schools—in one of these schools 15S children had been,
out of their little savings—out of the presents of their
parents, been enabled to purchase 151. worth of books.
—(Hear, hear.) He anticipated great advantage from
the establishing of these industrial schools,: and
especially from their connexionwith the workhouses, for
it was also intended to associate them with the work-
houses, and to establish libraries in them. Great com-
plaint had been made of the want of books, and of the
difficulty of obtaining cheap sets, and it was, therefore,
intended, out of the grants of last session, to give sets of
books to these schools. He was quite aware that this
scheme fell far short of the necessity of the case, and of
providing a general instruction for the whole of the peo-
ple, but yet it was a great step, and he trusted it would
prove effectual in at least approaching to a remedy of
the evil. From his own experience, he fully anticipated
that every assistance would be rendered by the ministers
of religion, but he must repeat that he should not be
doing his duty in speaking of the zeal of those gentle-
men, if he did not say that, of all denominations, the
clergy were pre-eminent, short as it was, he believed the
scheme would prove beneficial to the country.
Lord BROUGHAM was sure nothing could be better
than this system which ho had just proposed of coming
to Parliament for the money to carry out some plan of
education. It was evident they had no sufficient plan.
He lamented as much as his Noble Friend that they
found themselves just as far as ever from having a
national, a public, or general system. That was no
fault of theirs or any other Government, but it arose
from some evil in the state of society, which while it
lasted would baffle all attempts to obtain universal edu-
cation. He was no friend to compulsory education.
People who generally complained of the want of educa-
tion, wished to know why they did not adopt the system
of Prussia. Did they know there the system of education was
almost a military system? Did they know that if they took a
recipe from a physician in this country, he could not, as
happened to a friend of his, get it made up when they
applied to a druggist, without going through the hands
of a physician regularly educated there? Everything
there was compulsory. But that sort of thing would not
do here, although it was all very well in Prussia, where
the people were too ignorant to feel the evil. An Eng-
lishman was not to be forced, for the more you at-
tempted to compel him, the farther he would recede. Let
them, however, provide cheap schools, and they would
stimulate private beneficence, and the people would be
encouraged to send their children to the schools, and
then by degrees, but only by degrees, would they lead to
general education. Let them give a portion of the money
necessary for these schools, and they would bring the
sympathies and the co-operation of the people into play.
The Board of Education had adopted this plan with a view
not to supersede, but to aid private exertion, and nearly
500,000/. had been advanced very advantageously since
1832 for that purpose. Education was the best aid of
religion and the best guardian of morality. All his own
experience, and all the experience of the criminal law
which he or other judges concurred in, the opinion was
that punishment was no preventive of crime compared
with shame. But compel the criminal to refund the
thing he has stolen within forty-eight hours, and he
would never again commit the same offence. No man
committed a crime without an object, and that generally
was to avoid shame. The forger, unless he attempted
to run away, committed forgery in the hope of avoiding
the shame of bankruptcy. That was the sort of view
taken of the subject, and, in very few cases, and in a
very small degree, punishment was not heeded. What,
then, was the remedy? Why, prevention. The crimi-
nals came in almost all cases from an inferior class of
society. Their Lordships were not members of that
class.—(Hear.) It was not persons in their rank who
helped to swell the list of criminals. The proper remedy
for this evil was to educate the youth of the country at a
very early age, and then to instil into their minds such
feelings, as in their Lordships and the higher classes,
prevented the outbreak of such evil passions. Their
Lordships might depend upon it that a wide spread and
general infant education would do more to prevent crime
than all the criminal laws, executions, transportations,
and penitentiaries. These were his reasons why a ge-
neral and well defined system of infant education should
be brought forward and supported by the Government.
The Church and Dissenting communities were most zea-
lously bent upon improving the education of the masses.
It would be ungrateful for him not to notice their exertions.
But between the Church and the Dissenters, however,
there was a feeling of controversy which marred their
united exertions, the sole object of each party seemed
to be victory, and both of the parties threw impediments
in the way of an extended scheme of education, which
were all founded upon controversial opinions and
dogmas. It was his opinion that a system of super-
vision could not be maintained over the Dissenters,
because they were divided into so many sections—the
Church of England was one, and could therefore be
more easily cultivated by the regulating body, and he
was therefore of opinion, however ho might have op-
posed it before, that it would be much the best
way to bring forward a general scheme of education
under the control of the Church. Such a system
should be at once introduced, and if the Dissenters did
not like to take the benefit of the measure, they must
Dave it alone ; but he was quite sure that all the better
class of Dissenters would soon adopt the measure, and
thereby incalculable advantages would result to the
State. He thought it would be also advisable to estab-
lish central normal schools in various parts of England,
for the purpose of educating and preparing a class of
schoolmasters and teachers. In the schools established
he thought, too, that it would be a good thing if the
Government were to adopt the system of taking quarter
pence from the children. The parents were much
more likely, when they paid something for their
children's education, to see that they attended the school
regularly. With respect to the proposed plan for giving
pensions to the schoolmasters, he thought that the
period named, fifteen years, was too short a period to
entitle them to a pension.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—That term was to
the minimum period.
Lord BROUG lIAM—In that ease he would not have
so much objection. He also thought that an improved
system of education was highly desirable. He wished
in conclusion to impress upon their Lordships the neces-
sity for establishing upon a large scale, infant schools
fir the education of the children of the poor.
The Bishop of LONDON said he should treepass
very shortly on their Lordship's time after what had
been said by several Noble Lords, but the subject was
one which he could not allow to pass without some ob-
servations. He wished, in the first place, to express the
satisfaction with which be had heard the clear and
candid statement of the Noble Marquis. He thought
the steps which the Government proposed to take were
exceedingly wise and judicious. The important features
of the plan were inspection and encouragement by pecu-
niary grants and pensions to those engaged in normal
or training schools. lie considered that no system,
however wisely contrived, unless properly and vigilantly
superintended—not a superintendence induced by
jealous or private curiosity, but a superintendence by
real friends, who were anxious to have the funds voted
by the Government, or given by private and public
beneficence, devoted to the purposes for which they were
intended, and not wasted and thrown away, was the
only superintendence that could really promote a good
and efficient system of education. From the first
introduction of education, aided by grants from
the Government, he had pressed' upon the
clergy the great advantage which they would
derive by calling in the inspectors, and the preju-
dice formerly entertained with respect to them had de-
parted, and the assistance of the inspectors was found
most beneficial. He thought it right to state that the
inspectors had discharged their duty with courage in the
most unobjectionable manner, and with the utmost con-
sideration and regard for the feelings of the clergy—
and so long as they continued to follow that line of
conduct, so long would they meet with the utmost
facilities during their periodical visits. Then normal
schools had not so much to contend against the want of
funds as the want of efficient means to work them.—
(Hear.) Such as the schoolmaster was, such would be
the school. Therefore, he was satisfied that her Majes-
ty's Government could not act more wisely than in pro-
moting the extension of normal schools, and by training
up schoolmasters in the way mentioned, would induce
them to emulate each other, and to fit themselves to
perform a creditable part in the exhibition which took
place from time to time. He could not help suggesting
to the Noble and Learned Lord the expediency of his
paying a visit to some of the best conducted normal
schools in which he would find that many of
the suggestions he had made were in actual
operation.—(Hear, hear.) For instance, lineal drawing
had not only been practised for some time in the
National, but in the Normal schools also.—(Cheers.)
Then the Noble and Learned Lord had suggested the
establishment of such schools in different parts of the
kingdom, but at that time there were several in exist
ence; there was one in Chester, one in York, Durham,
Salisbury, and Exeter; so that that great want of which
he had spoken had been partially supplied. He also
suggested the expediency of making the children pay,
what he called, " quarterly pence." Now, there
was scarce a National school, especially in
London, where " weekly pence" was not paid.
the payment quarterly was objectionable. In fact, if
the payments were not more frequent, there was a great
probahility that none would be made. In some cases a
great portion of the expense of the schools was paid in
this way. He only mentioned these things in order to
show the Noble Lord the great improvements that had
been made during the last few years in those schools.
In the school at Chester to which he (the Right Rev.
Prelate) had alluded, there were several pupils who
when the proper time came, would pass their examina-
tions, and evince perhaps as much knowledge of morals
and philosophy as those in the schools of modern
Athens, for whose institutions the Noble and

Learned Lord bad so much respect.—(llear, hear.)
There was one part of the statement of the Noble Mar-
quis on which he should reserve his opinion until he had
obtained further information—he meant the workhouse

schools, the importance of which could not be over-
rated; and it should not be forgotten that it was ad•
visable that those schools should be assimilated to the

national schools so far as the mode of instruction was

concerned.

He had visited some of these workhouse

schools. He had visited one in his own parish (Ful-
ham), and he was sure, another in which the children
were more happy, more cleanly, or more sensibly
amused, did not exist —(Hear, hear.) In looking
at the children, he could not help contrasting their
condition with what it would have been, if they had
been under the roofs of their parents. He had, as his
Noble Friend knew, taken a lively interest in the esta-
blishment of infant schools ; he had been instrumental

in establishing the first infant school at Chester. lie
was aware, owing to the tender ages of the children,
that nothing of a controversial nature could be in-
troduced ; but as they were seminaries, or nurseries to
the training schools, religious instruction ought to be
imparted at the earliest period in the large towns—
(Hear, hear)—especially as owing to the frequency
with which the children are taken from the schools,
for the purpose of being svt to work, they were deprived

of the benefit of religious training. That instruction
ought to be imparted even if there was no chance of fi-
nishing it. He earnestly hoped that no disparagement
would be thrown on the national religion in carrying
out the improvements and extensions which the Privy
Council had adopted, for which he begged to thank them
most sincerely.
The Bishop St. ASAPII had no objection to the se •
lection of teachers from the lowest ranks of the
people; but he considered that a great evil would be in-
flicted on the country if they were all taken from those
ranks. The majority of the schoolmasters and school-
mistresses in England were taken from the ranks of lit-
tle shopkeepers or small farmers, who were but a step
above the labouring classes. Out of twenty he found
that only two had been in the national schools. He
considered that the teachers ought to be selected from
the middle classes. Such a class might be selected from
the old-fashioned grammar schools.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA ccnsidered that no sys-
tem would be efficient except it was based on the prin-
ciples of the Established religion of the country, and
eCmight save the ex-
tors. Many of the
under the control of the clergy, who, if they zealously
t
ppd
people
nov
pos
ele
t e dwo
ftehr
eet themselves svei lnGvgeosivnet: to
an
state
thaeetne
t spetesouf
infidelityn and heathenism,j
and it was, therefore, the duty of the Government to
do all in their power to promote their spiritual welfare.
He approved of the plan submitted to their Lordships by
the Noble Marquis.
The ARCHBISHOP of CANTERBURY said his
views on the subject had been so well expressed by the
Right Reverend Prelate, who had just addressed their
Lordships, that he thought it unnecessary for him to
trespass on their time, beyond sincerely expressing his
thanks to the President of the Privy Council, for the
attention which he had paid to the subject of education,
and for bringing the plan he had before the House.
Several reports were then received and brought up,
and forwarded a stage ; and their Lordships adjourned
at a Quarter-past Eight o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 5.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
NEW MEMBERS.

Earl GROSVENOR and Lord ROBERT GROSVENOR took
the oaths and their seats—the former for Chester, in
the place of his uncle, and the latter for Middlesex,
in the place of Mr. Byng, deceased,
SECOND READINGS.
The following Bills were read a second time, and or-
dered to be committed:—
Bristol and South Wales Junction Railway and Aust
Ferry.
Direct London and Portsmouth and London, Brighton,
and South Coast Railways Amalgamation.
Doddington Rectory Division.
Glasgow, Airdrie, and Monklands Junction Railway
(Cowlairs, Carmyle, Central Junction, and Coplaw-
. __

hill Branches, and Montrose-street Terminus).
Glasgow, Airdrie, and Monklands Junction Railway
(Cowlairs Branch).
Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway, and
Ayrshire and Bridge of Weir Railway (No. 3).
Glasgow, Dumfries, and Carlisle Railway, and Glasgow,
Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway (No. 2).
Kingston-upon-Thames Small Tenements.
Liverpool, Manchester, and Newcastle-upon-Tyne Junc-
tion Railway.
London and North-Western Railway (Purchase of the
Earl of Ellesmere's interest in the Manchester South
Junction and Altrineham Railway).
Liskeard and Launceston Branch Railway.
Lynn and Ely Railway (Extension to Spalding and
Ho'beach).
Lynn and Ely Railway (Extension to Bury St. Edmund's).
Llynvi Iron Company.
Manchester and Lincoln Union Railway Deviation.
Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire Railways
(Louth and Ilorncastle and East Lincolnshire Junction
Branches).
Manchester Markets.
Norfolk Railway (from Thetford to the Lowestoft Rail-
way near Reedham, with a Branch to Hales worth).
North-Western Railway (Diversions at 6kipton, Caster-

ton, and Sedbergh). -
Preston and Wyre Railway.
Reading, Guildford, and Reigate Railway.
Wharf tale Railway (Skipton and Cayley Hall Deria.

tions).
Wear Valley, Bishop Auckland, and Weardale, Wear-
dale Extension, and Wear and Dcrwent Railways,
and Shildon Tunnel Amalgamation.
CAMBRIDGE AND THETFORD RAILWAY.
This Bill was read a first time.
LONDON INIPROVEMENTS BILL.
This Bill was brought up, and read a first time.
LONDON WATERWORKS.
This Bill was also read a first time.
OXFORD-STREET IMPROVEMENTS.
This Bill was also read a first time.
STANDING ORDERS. _ _

It was reported from the Committee of Standing
Orders, that in the cases of the Bristol and Yeovil Rail-
way, and the Glasgow and Tregarthan Railway, the
standing orders ought not to bo dispensed with.
PUNISHMENT OF DEATH.

Mr. BROTHER TON presented a petition from
certain inhabitants of the city of London against the
punishment of death.
POOR REMOVAL ACT.

Mr. W. 0. STANLEY presented petitions against
the Poor Removal Bill.
BREAD.

Mr. JOHN O'BRIEN presented petitions from the
inhabitants of Limerick, and also from the corporation
of that place, praying that the bakers might be com•
polled to sell bread by weight.