The Sun.
London, England, 1847-12-03 00:00:00

obtained entirely through Smith's representations of
Esmann's respectability. lie could, it necessary, show
that Esm,mn owed Poncy a considerable sum of money,
and that Poncy had seized the furniture in Esmann'a
possession for arrears of rent.
The son of Poncy was examined as to the length of
time his father had been in this country. The tamily
had been many years in this country.
Mr. BINGHAM said his opinion was that the testimony
given by Carr had materially altered the aspect of the
case against Poncy. It appeared that Poncy had re-
peatedly denied to Carr that he knew anything about
the purchase of the furniture, and it also appeared that
the statement about Esmann holding a situation in the
British Museum only came out accidentally on the par-
ties getting a sight of the repairs going on at the
Museum. Ile should now only require Poncy to find
sureties to appear as a witness at the Central Criminal
Court. The judge might then, if he saw fit, order
Poncy to be put in the position of a prisoner, but at
present he should only order him to find bail to ensure
his attendance at the court.

Mr. Ballantine said there were many watches pledged
by Es►nann belonging to Poncy in the hands ot pawn-
brokers.

Mr. BINGHAM could not enter into flint portion 13'
the case.

Theeprisoiter Esmann was then ordered to be corn
mitted on the above cases, and on the previous charge o!
stealing a watch.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
ROUSE OF COMMONS, Dec. 2.
ADJOURNED DEBATE.
On the order of the day being read for resuming
the adjourned debate,
Mr. URQUHA RT rose and said that the Par-
liament were met at this period for the pur-
pose of considering the cause of public dis-
tress, and they were now informed by the
Government that it was their intention to
move for the appointment of a Committee
whose inquiries were to be confined to a
consideration of the affairs of the Bank of Eng-
land. He believed that the evil lay far deeper than
in the state of that establishment. The Legislature
was alone to blame for the state of the country. The
evils were traceable to the abrogation of useful laws,
and the pressing of other measures having a tendency
to reduce the circulation of the country. The only
remedy for these evils was to be found in the
abrogation of those laws which had been passed
upon the subject of the currency.—(Hear, hear.)
The only effect to be expected to result from the
operation of a law regulating commerce was an
effect for evil. The effects of such a measure were to be
found in the disruption cf the affairs of the country.
It had been found that a reduction of the rate of in-
terest had been instrumental in promoting
the prosperity of the country, but under the
operation of this law the rate of interest was
raised, and the present distress was the consequence.
With respect to the arguments which had been
brought for ward by the Chancellor of the Exchequer
on a previous evening, he considered that they were
only brought forward for the purpose of rendering
abortive the inquiry to be instituted, and leading
Hon. Members to suppose that the Bank Charter
had nothing whatever to do with producing the ex-
isting distress. On Tuesday night last it was said that
the present disaster was not the result of the Bank
Charter, but that it was caused by speculations in rail-
ways. Now he would ask what railways were? They
were undertakings like many other speculations in this
country, at least in some respects; all that could be said
of them was, that a great number of people were em-
ployed in their construction, and the wages those people
received went to pay for tea, sugar, bread, butter, and
other articles of food, as well as clothing. There might
have been injurious speculations in railways; no doubt
there were; but those were questions of a private and
commercial kind. In railways it should he recollected
there was no abstraction of capital from the country.
How was it that our demand for foreign grain had not
called forth a corresponding demand for our manufac-
tures? The expectations and hopes held out in that re-
spect by the advocates of free trade were sadly disap-
pointed—gold was preferred to our manufactures. The
reason was, because there was a bonus for gold, and an
embargo upon our manufactures. The lamentable result
was, that many millions were drained out of the country,
which had brought it to its present state. He would
ask why was it that the price of gold was fixed ?—why
was it that our gold sent out of this country during the
war should have been sent at 51. an ounce, and now sent
out at 31. 17s. 101 d. ? Free trade had been called for.—
restrictions were objected to and denounced. The prin-
ciple was admitted. Why should not the same princi-
ples be applied to gold ? During the war we exchanged
our gold at the then market value, but since the rule
has become inflexible that gold should be at the same
price under all circumstances and all changes. People
who now produce a 5/. note to get change receive sove-
reigns for it, but if every one who had notes wished to
get them exchanged, and presented them for that pur-
pose, there would be no such thing as convertibility.—
(Hear, hear.) Ho looked upon the fact that there was
no fixed standard for gold as one of the most important
topics of that debate. How was it reconcilable that they
were for restrictions upon gold which represented ail
things ? He regretted to find that the consideration of
the currency was not a party question. It had been
hitherto left almost exclusively to usurers and persons
connected with the Exchange. Those persons succeeded
in securing the heads of parties in that House, anti
having dune so, they further secured their bodies and
their tails,—(Laughter.) The Right Hon. Gentleman
the Chancellor of the 14.:xchequi r stated, with reference
to the banks of Scotland, that they had to be supported.
That observation was cheered by the House, manifestly
for the purpose of throwing discredit upon those banks.
Why eheuld that be so? Some large mercantile houses
in Scotland might have been, and he dared say were,
embarrassed, but they never before had seen a Chan•
cellor of the Exchequer come down to that House to
speak in such a manner of so large a number of mer
cantile houses. Why should the Scotch banks be
sneered at? Was it because the industry and prudence
of those who were connected with them afforded indis-
putable arguments that they were proof even against the
currency system? They proved that the issue or cir-
culation of I/. notes was not dangerous, and they give
proofs of daily increasing prosperity, notwithstanding
all the embarrassments and difficulties with which
they had to struggle. The people of Scotland, who had
so small a voice in that House, had paralysed the in-
fluence of the Minister who had been able to carry his
Bill of 1844, relating to the remaining part of the
United Kingdom. The Right lion. Baronet stated in
that House, in 1844, that, so far as Ireland and Scotland
were concerned, he proposed to leave them for future
legislation, as their circumstances were not only so
different frem each other, but also from this country;
and especially, he avowed, as his reason for not interfer-
ing with Scotland, that he did not wish to encounter 80
powerful a combination of public opinion. A more grave
subject had never come before the House. It was one
which influenced all public affairs for good or evil,
chiefly for evil, and extended down from the richest
banker in Lombard-street to the humblest peasant in the
land. It was one that degraded oar morality, and
endangered our existence as a nation.—(Hear, hear.)
He would therefore meet the motion of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer with a direct negative.
The measure of 1844 had only been let in through
the former Committee having come to no deciSion. It
might be asked what interest Ireland had in this ques-
tion? A system which had brought mighty England on
her knees, must lay Ireland in the dust. The latter
country was not without capital, though she might have
little gold. She abounded in capital, and was conse-
quently alike affected by our banking system. Let Irish
Members, then, however much divided on other ques-
tions, concur on the question of money.—(A laugh.) In
this question no party considerations were involved ;
Hon. Members need not be trammelled by fear of oppo-
sing Ministers, or of voting black white.—(Laughter.)
Mr. E. ELLICE thought it most extraordinary that,
with the vast industry and mineral wealth of this country,
periodical convulsions should occur, shaking commerce
and industry to its centre.—(Hear.) Most willingly would
he support the views of the last speaker, if he thought
any beneit was to be derived from the change he pro-
posed. Few people, now-a-days, imagined that our evils
could be remedied by a fluctuating standard.—(Hear.)
How was such a standard to be used—how made ap-
plicable to our condition ? Such an expedient had never
been resorted to in any country without bringing that
country to ruin.—(Hear.) One of the most unfortunate
steps ever taken in this country was, that, after having
incurred such a vast amount of obligations during the
war, we should resolve to resume cash payments in 1819.
—(Hear.) Ile had deeply deplored this course ; but it
was now too late to go back.—(Hear.) The object of
that measure was to carry out in good faith that which
Parliament had determined on. At that time his only
objection to it was the reduction of the value of the ounce
of gold from 81s. to 775. 100., and on this he had pro-
posed an amendment, but without success. HO had since
felt bound by that measure, and had been foremost in
seeking to maintain it.
Mr. MUNTZ—You cannot maintain it.—(Hear.)
Mr. ELLICE—But we were bound to endeavour to
do so as long as we could.—(Hear, hear.) The Right
Hon. Gentleman then alluded to the crises of 1816
and 1819, and observed that the bullion then forced
out of this country had very soon after been found
in the Bank of France. Then came the Right Hon.
Baronet's (Sir R. Peel's) measure of 1819 ; and who
did not remember the closely succeeding events of 1822,
when 13,000,000/. of paper was borrowed from the Bank,
gold took its departure, and the memorable disasters of
1825 occurred ? The Bank, with 30,000,0001. of paper
out, was then so near stopping payment, that the di-
rectors sat in the parlour with their watches out,
anxiously awaiting the stroke of four o'clock, to close
the doors of the establishment.—(Hear, hear.) Other
fluctuations of less import had succeeded, until in 1844
the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R.Peel) had proposed his
recent measure, doubtless with the view of checking
these fluctuations. To effect this the principle of con-
vertibility had been adopted. Though he (Mr. Ellice)
approved of this principle at the time, he had now great
doubts as to its operation ; and he entirely dissented
from the inference drawn by his Right Hon. Friend the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the mesure of 1844
was the safest that could be devised. Surelyrecent
events could not warrant such a belief in the mind of
any man.—(Hear, hear.) One recent occurrence
had much tended to alter his opinion as to the
security of the principle of convertibility. He alluded
to the vast importations
of ,
grain, both in this
country and in France.
While, in ranee, these trans-
actions, being chiefly transfers of grain from one part
of the country to the other, had caused but little de-
rangement of their monetary affairs—here, on the other
hand, the whole of the funds necessary to purchase corn ,

having to be withdrawn from the central establishment,
the Bank of England, the greatest derangement had
been thereby created, whose effect was probably equal
to the withdrawal from the currency of three times the
amount of gold sent out of the country.—(Hear, hear.)
Such a state of things could not possibly have occurred
had our currency been based upon actual deposits of
money. It mattered not to this part of the argument
what was the standard of value—it might be gold, or
tin, or any other metal; but with a fluctuating standard
it would be impossible to conduct the vast affairs of
nation like this. He was no enemy to railways; oti the
other hand, he thought the Hon.Ge rifleman opposite (51r.
Hudson), the founder of the system, well entitled to the
gratitude of the country. Still, it should be remembered
that these conjoint causes, corn and railways, had been
productive of immense loss—a loss which could not be
measured by the amount of liabilities of the few unfor-
tunate men who had become insolvent. All had been
subjected to losses—those who stood as well as those
who had fallen.—(Hear, hear.) It was impossible to
estimate the loss which the trading classes had suffered.
Part of this loss was doubtless attributable to the rail-
roads; and the House might take blame to itself for
having given too great encouragement to the coropetil
in these investments.—(Hear.) Still, great good would
arise hereafter from the railways; it was impossible to
estimate the amount of that good; and in securing
were in the position of a person who had crippled his
means by the purchase of a deferred annuity.—(Hear,)
Another disturbing cause was the connexion of th.rl
Government with the Bank.—(llear, hear.) The 131 k
of 1844 professed to provide security against the Sou' e
Ilese)
acting so as to injure the position of the country. "r"ci
Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer contende
that this would not have happened had the directors
acted discreetly. Why, had the Right Hon. Gentlemen
himself been governor of the Think probably the sa,u;
course would have been pursued. The whole sYsLesa
of every Chancellor of the Exchequer since 1819 "the
been nothing but an abuse of credit; they blew r
bubble of prosperity for the sake of the
budget of the year—(Hear, hear)—though her
then
admit that his Right Hon. Friend below him had
too"-
avoided this last year.—(Hear, hear.) But, in the
sition in which this country had been recently pieced u
thought it would have been better not to have Olin?,
a loan, but to have raised the money by taxation. . g
never could understand why we should have any flog sr
debt in this country when Exchequer-bills were al r*-0
Pardo for
The fact was, that the whole of our revenue system We
so mixed up with questions of currency and Bar!kirf
nagement, that it was impossible to go into anY 'plat' he
without considering the whole.—(Hear, hear.)„'" the
were asked what system he would substitute ton.iti
existing one, he must confess he felt himself rerYr-e-er•)
in the dark, and he believed we were all so.--(,
After struggling nearly thirty years with the nrl"h:
of convertibility, he feared we must now come t°.
conviction that it could not be maintained, esre,l,ll,to
now that it was subjected to the teat of failing biro,— es
and free trade.—(Hear, hear.) In saying this, 11,..e ,15` not
as a friend of free trade; but ho conceived we HA,-"Tlet
yet seen all the effects of the system.—(Hear, bean/ suse
great defalcation of food in Ireland was another e'ire
of difficulty; and this led to the inquiry, b'w these
our existing deficiencies to be supplied?
things conspired to make the present a state of Vane° hp
The Bank system of Scotland was an excellent one]
red,
cause it provided, by the amount of the funds sect in
against any such disaster as that which had occurr ~t_
to many of the banks of this country. thougt"b;
however, that in times of pressure and etnergencilts of
Scotch banks should be able to avoid then eees!.rleei
coming to England for assistance. His Right 121°n•i:
altbl
said that the Bank of England was in very ifti; re,
and flourishing state, and he believed it bad that " leetr
duced its interest to 6 per cent., but it was lint the Or
dition of the Bank as much as the condition of the Pold
lie which had to do with the question. One of W-testtee
essential things to be inquired
„into by the C°l° 410
would be the dealing of the Bank in public seculci,
sod
The present system was unsatisfactory and une°,,tlait sell
he thought they should know better how to tinten;;ool to
the inquiry of the Committee. He saw man)? rFs bad
suppose the revival of trade might not be so rapl". $ll6
been anticipated; and they must take care durl e';sere
suspense between this great contraction and sPsr did
and a more natural state of things, that tlootrf
not strain the strings of the industry of 111;1..150,0i
the
Chancellor much.—(Hear, hear.) His Bight Hon'
Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that certainwro 0
large merchants ought to have been aware, as
nee
himself, of the approaching crisis ; but did be rind.ofer
that the pressure of his eight per cent was hangs
every little tradesman in the country ?—(Hear') e t rats
got it into their heads that this was the Governtn °gear
of interest, and it was charged in every case.--k
00,
hear.) He did not believe it was possible to suPoeid
pressure under which the industry of the cotintriliw,,htly
rot rise ; but they must take care to burden it wriest,
as possible with taxation of any descriptiono,ooa.
hear.) As to our going on without credit it wee ;100
Bible—it was a vast artificial piece of naachinerY,s Bode
abused on all sides—by the Government and tiled their
w 0
and yet we found fault with those who folloo_4lo
example. The only two countries in the world k
theses crises had occurred, arising from s defleleeurfosi
the circulating medium, were England and Alltioce/
still, however, he knew the advantages and coeverioutO
of our present system, but he hoped the Leg'lloool
would secure those advantages to the countrY w'
ifht
again exposing it to the risks and dangers under
it now suffered.—(Hear.) thol
Mr. NEWDEGATE said it was quite necessart-.0
the Bank should go into the market and sell 00010
for when its deposits were withdrawn, it was bOilli.",111
sacrifice its securities at the same time ; and they 11,W
not to find fault with the Bank directors for coreNeo.
with the enactments which had been forced upon t"eis
It was true that upwards of 35,000,0001. had bee„"o,o
pended on railways during the last year, but the'ool.
had not gone out of the circulation of the coo os
and the real pressure had been produced bird se
payment of 33,000,0001. for corn. Whatever Inigode
said to the contrary, he must contend that freettition!
had greatly aggravated the crisis, for large inll9?r_o, ssel
ef corn Inuit lead to large exportations of no
ol
its effect on the monetary system of the
cou,oterf
too
be evident. It was true that America bad tateruieeera
of our manufactures, but then it had been a,
,erliege
prices. He also contended that free trade bed st this
the general balance of trade, and turned it age_inexperte
country, as was shown by a reference to Tll7
and imports for the years 1845, 184, and Ib'el sett
he last year,
exports had fallen off 3,000,000 L in t of free
.t systern
1,000,0004 in the last month. Th— a
proved by these resalts, and with the
se
jinni
ntent, pencil
trade was inconsistent with a restrietededeiliartreepereeyspet
of recurring difficulty were they to rest co
t 18 Wattle.r;
the proposed inquiry (perhaps for the liextheisbour-
until our merchants were mined, and all
artistes ern;
engaged on railway werks, and the on the pneo
ployed in our manufactures, were thrown n there igh,
rates?—sllear, hear.) It might be said thatu„,he 800 k•
now no deficiency of bullion in the coffers
~,111:3 Boor,
But how had that bullion been obtained?
nod of 11:1
Government, taking advantage of the pere!_toooh.
pression here, had sent some 300,0001. o.r 4" „tot
the ° de-
bullion in exchange for our securities, and it wag
we might obtain a still further supply beivs
means. As to the dangerous tendency 0 he folll
pendent in this way upon a foreign Governmeys opposo,
concurred with the Hon. Member for Stafford.,,,,'o,ooo
Russia should desire to possess 2,000,000 or 3,‘TAeci
th W
.
our securities, by the Act of 1844 it was preoT.l7 or bl hOo
upon a certain contingency the Bank sh
securities into the market. It was not impes
whet such securities were offered for sale the `;he roe
merit might require a loan, and what would be. ,_'„,eor;
dition of the country, if at the moment of Me ";010
renco of the contingency contemplated, whensreel:
million or two of securities were thrown into theiwtosell t
the Government and the Bank were both oblige? sreel
Such an event, if taken advantage of by Russia, of
have more effect in coitrolling this countrY ad"
pecuniary speculation, it wouttii,an Go'
war, while, as a
vantageous rather than otherwise to the Rutefesiei
vernment. It was unworthy of the House by 'the .Ifi,
those relaxations of the restrictions imposed bY.,,nose
of 1844, which the condition of the country del"oreig,
to place us in the position of borrowers from, eski2
power. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in 11 wits
of the circulation, quoted always the Bank
a
out referring to the country banks. rtos sie iG
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQ" 200,° 6,
5 it 4 '
tinctly stated that the country circulation w•eober, 1 „I
to 250,0004 less in October 1847, than in Oci_. sad fris
that in Scotland it remained at about the stunu'ductiot,l.
in Ireland there had been a considerable r e oiceo
August this year, as compared with the sew
return,
1846.
that in o 0
Mr. NEWDEGATE proceeded to shoWed leiegois‘
gust last the circulation of tho whole 11/111.,e fob hie
was less in 1847 as compared with 11;46, 111'"septeniheft
months respectively: in August, 3,292,0001' Neel oaf
4,038,000 L; October, 4,450,000/.; and__„o, iu„or
4,250,000/. While the contraction of le3.:t_ the 'es.
amount to 2,000,000/., in the month of tstig';'tio tbe_i
rency of the United Kingdom bad decreased for oist"be
tent of 8,292,000/., and in October to nearly, 1%01
half millions. Taking the whole eirell_„6 be could
country at 40,000,0001., the contraction ercroset cot',
to ten per cent. The Right Honourable 4en 000 01
not, therefore, contend that there bad el°llo'
traction of the circulation. He Compl.ll_l_,iie teLog
the operation of the Act of 1844, as gl7l7ntitis s'llt
tage to the Bank in the discount market,
_,sna, te_ooo
opposed to the principle previously recogn'cootrtec tee
contraction of credit should precede aid teteuriog
of the circulation. He might be told red ° iteel
endange rope
convertibility of notes was never
_ero co _ore
the late pressure, inasmuch as the Ban's. w id in pr 4,01
to keep in their hands a certain sum of
the feeitt
to
Lion to their issues. But in October last tole oss
danger of the Bank being either obliged.,r76,oool.,rote
charter or stop payment. At that time t
all the notes it had in reserve; and,if thore_welted 0
their
in rumour, some influential bankers thett_7odraf,,or •
Government and stated that they must ws` not iteboet
deposits.from the Bank if something w:,_a to ,leolf
(timely done. These deposits amou
bLeeen rude a
8,000,0001., and had only 3,000,0001 unite heve
withdrawn, what alternative would "'might 14,01.1
but to stop or violate the charter?
what
weeld !rote'
they relight have sold securities, bet wu such c sestl"
ties have produced in the market unde,r_..id be 1r,1,0 ity
stances? These matters, he trusted, an that t''s de'
gated by the Committee, but he also holnierea by
sfld
tgoteresta of the country would not be eng s longosst
termination obstinately to maintain---Pe4„ressionae
tedious inquiry—a law under which ,`44", of WI, to 0
continue and increase so long as the bareadherenounveoool
mained against us, and that no doglnsci
relax an
,teorroePres
principle which experience bad prove
would induce Government to refuse to
: 1 06°1g
sive and dangerous law.
under which the country had been s_n_",,nejetly
Mr. MITCHELL attributed the coo3l:ll,,reerrict;fig °oil°
pf
trading and improvident speculations, e:lrs..
ways, encouraged, be was sorry to oy