The Sun.
London, England, 1823-02-20 00:00:00

flay was no longer performed in this manner. With a view
to- ascertain what the Lieutenant-General and Master-Gene-
ral's separate duties were, an examination :was instituted by
the CeninaiSsioners, the result of which was, that in the ab-
sence of the Master-General, the' Lieutenant-General took
his place, and kept an account of the warrants. Mr. Crew,
who had held a high official situation in the office, stated that
hii duties were not distinct from those which belonged to him
is the capacity of a Member of' the Board, unless in the ab-
sence of the Master-Getteral, or in the event of a vacancy.—
Fart Chatham and Lord Moira, who had both been Masters-
General, were examined. To Lord Chatham the question was
Tut, " What is your opinion of the utility of the appointment
of Lieut.-Oeneral of the Ordnance ?" The answer to this ques-
tion was reniarkable. The Noble Earl begged to postpone an.
swering, which was accordingly permitted, in order that he
might have time, no doubt, to consult with those interested in
the afthir, and manage his' answer to suit their taste. When he
did make any reply it appeared in a postscript, and was to
the following curious awe I really find it difficult to
Understand what could lead to the doubt expressed by your
geestion, of the tftilitrof the appointment of Lient..fienerale,
especially when the office appears to have been filled by such
high and responsible names"—as though (continued the Bon.
Member) the high and responsible narnes had any thing to do
With the mattes'--(Near i)—Next was Lord Moira, to whom
the same qutstion Was put. His answer was very different.
lie said—" 1 apprehend the office was originally instituted in
contemplation of the hlastersGeneral, who. is usually an Officer
of high military rank, helot! sent abroad in the command of an
army: In that case the Lieut.-General would certainly take
tit management of the department in his place. Beyond this,
lim not aware of any duties he can have beyond those of a
'Member of the Board." The Commissioners upon this evi-
dence, report to the House to' the same effect. In -the same
way the Clerks were thought Useless, as they could only be
required in case aif the absence of the ii‘laster.General, and
in the absence of' the ..Master.Oeneral at Walcheren, the
whole duty was done by the Under Secretary. The Com.
mistioners therefore said i—" We think that these Clerks
mot be unnecessary, and ought .to be dismissed, especially
as it is not likely the absence of a Alaster.Oeneral would
lee of long continuance. We are also of opinion, that a Lieut..
lieneral cannot be essential to the constitution of the Board,
especially it' the Mieter.tieneral have not the duties of the
Oppointmente to attend to," The Commissioners recommended
also that the Ordnance Department should be united under one
distinct Commission, in thernanner of the Treneury and the Ad.
miralty, with the title of Commissioners, and the Master.Oe.
metal at the head, and the duties exactly of the same nature..-
'Lord Moira said that the Officers should be fixed, with one 'in
the Howie of Commons to answer questions and give informs.
- than The Commissioners allowed there. might be two in the
House, and the others should be fixed. But they had seen
four in that House: and even now there were three, con-
trary to the recommendation of the Commissioners, anti three
to one over the allowance of Lord Moira. The complaint he
had to snake was, that scarcely any one recommendation of
--the Commissioners had been attended to. They had recom-
mended the present :formation of the Board to he abolished ;
and the question for the [louse was, whether they thought it
necessary that this Board in ot time of peace should have five
()dicers for conducting the affairs of such a small department,
'when they considered that four were sufficient to conduct the
affairs of the Navy. Things must be very much changed if the
Navy. of 'England was unworthy of the same degree of coml.
deration as the Ordnance. Be might be told that the Barrack
and Commissariat Departments; had been added to the Ord.
,nance. But the linrrack had always belonged to it, and even
with both, the business in amount and importance could be
nothing to that of the Navy. If therefore the House thought
'itself right in the decision of last Session relative to the Lords 11
Of the Admiralty, it could not refuse him the motion he was
about to submit for the redaction of one from the number of
-this Board: When considered that the nation paid 90001. for the
Ordnance Board, and 40001. for the Admiralty, the disparity
-would Appear in all its enormity. After the Speech front the ,
Throne, it was really an insult to the petition of the people for
•retrenchment, to fill up this appointment within twenty-four
hour; of the meeting of that House. In the existing circum-
stances of the country, they :ought not to spend one single
-shilling beyond what was actually necessary. The House
therefore, he trusted would support him in endeavouring to
make s stand against wasteful cxpendure, in the instance of
'whet he considered to be the most expensive of the public de-
.partments, Ireland always excepted. The Report said the
Secretnry ought to have no more than 01101.-a year, whereas'
Alt. Crew had 15001. a year, according to the returns last 1
year, whilst hie house cost the country 15,000/. building. lie
did not. blame Mr. Crew forgetting all he could, but he blamed 1
those Who gave it to him. The Secretary in etoint of fact cost
tint nation 1,9001. a year ; for a pension of 400/. wasigiven to
Captain Chapman to retire and make way for some ot*lse.
it wait impossible the appointment could be of rounichnport.
imest, fig he was frequently absent— indeed lie was at-the
• present moment at Aledria. .'Why„ then enty 1,5001: a year
for tivrformilig tiro,duty, arc ;send the fielividtial on ann.
ther ; 'rite Under -Secretary wits discharged but without any
saving to the -public, for the 3001; a year he had was di•
vided betwixt his two clerks, who were kept. There was no
Department in the State required more looking after then the
Ordnance, he was convinced. In 1790 the whole Department
cost I ,720/., being in time of war ;. but in 1021, ,the sixth year
• of peace, it cost 03,273/., being an increase of 47,0001. upon the
two Office; of the Tower and Pall-mall only. The Commis.
*corers of Military Inquiry, seeing this great crease, suggested
two mot: important alterations, which it became the duty of
the House so take notice had never. been attended to. The
first was, that the two Department at the Tower and Pall-
mall, should be consolidated, anti most properly So, for no
mode was ever invented to increase expences equal to this. fie
• telievEtti there were ten clerks to carry on the correspondence,
• and they were paid their travelling expences between the two
.oilicee. They recommended also one place of receiving the
stores inatead of their being taken' in first at the Tower anti
then sent to Woolwich'. Another grievance was, that individuals
were allowed - a certain sum for -house.ient, and houses were
built considerably beyond the ratio of the allowance. For in. 1
'Mince a Store-keeper was allotted .501. for that purpose, arid a
house which cost 4,000/. was built for him. lie believed the
Department possessed 3 or 400 houses, and one half of these
wen distant from the individuals for whom they were intend..
ed. The Hon, Member 'concluded by moving," That as the'
• Commissioners for Military inquiry have reported, in their
• 1301 Report, that according to their belief, founded upon the
information given to them, the appointment of Lieutenant.
Sienterst of the Ordance is not essential to the Constitution of
the Board in time of. war, this House is of opinion that the
resent appointment of Lordellereeford in time of peace, is in.
ce.petietent wi.h the recommendations of the sikl Report, at va-
riance with the professions of Economy lately delivered from
the. Throne, and contrary to the interests of the country, which
• in its present mate rettotree that economy in the State which
will retrench every thing not absolutely neccessary to the
country,"
The quivition having been put from the (hair, .
WARD rose.— Ile had, he said; to charge the Hon.
'Member with having put words Into the mouthti of the Corn.
mileioners for Military Inquiry which they never used, and
with having attributed to them, in the paper which he . had
actually put into the hands of the Chair, sentiments which
were not only not correet, but the very reverse of which were
correct, as coming from them. . Time Honourable Member made
them say, in the body of hie motion, that the appointment
'ofis " cu tet talt4en aal of Ordnance was unnecessary in time
of war.
Mr. BUMF. ltcee attempted to address the Chair, but was
called to order by the House.
Mr. WA RD understood the !Inn. Member to persist in his
• motion i or did he deny it was as he hart stated ite.ln that case
ne Witted the motion to be read. •
The Clerk then reed the niotion, and upon Coming to tits
weed " Bossed," first occurring, was %topped by Mr. nalg,
with the understanding, as we apprehend, that the words " in
• time or war', were to be omitted.
Mr. WA iii?—.He had no objection to take it as the lion.
Member wished. The Dein. Member, lie must say, was al-
witys ready enough to admit -facts, when Iteeinderstood diem.
He believed. his best way of dealing with the House and the
Hon. Gentleman, would be to diVide into three parts what he
had to say relative to the ease of the lion. Gentleman. Firet,
then, .be would endeattonr to %how, that he had mistepre.
:witted the Commiesioners ; next that the Commissioners
.had therneelven misrepresennsl the evidence-upon which they
professed to found their Report, and lastly, that supposing
both to be collect in their repreeentations,,, he would contend
that Such an alteration had taken place in the business of the
- department, that it was totally impressible to attendqo the re.
• eonemendetione of the Military Commiselonerie—Ellear, hear )
--Helend given credit to the lion. Member for honesty in his
ststements to die House, but lie was carry to follow this up by
exposing his garhivd quotations front the Report in question to
*seed his case, by leaving out much which came after what he
had thought proper to read .to the House. lie would read the
real Report, and leeve, it to the memories of lion. Members-to
merle the difference. Two years ago, in melting a eimilar mo.
tion, the lion. Member read front the Report RS fOHOW3 It
• • itimeare from the evidence laid befare us,,that the appointment
.or Lieutenvit.oenerai is not essential to the ciepstitution of thi
edenontment." There the Bon.
Member tarnerly stopped
;
and theee, to Isis lltier estonishmt nt, Ito againatoppai that plea..
Let the !louse, .however, listen to the Report, and judge be..
twoen them, whether the Commissioners had or had not been
otisrrotelOted, and the expression of their opinions garbled by
-the Then. Member or not. -it went an say—" especially it it
be underateM that the attention of the Master.ileneral be not,
..withdrawn to the dude* of other appointrnents."—( II ear, hear I)
expression, it was obvious, altered the whole ; because

for (he Report to go along with the lion. Member, the office of
Master-General must be entirely new cast. But the Report
still went on to say, that " if that should not take place, we
have nothing to offer on the appointment of Lieutenant-0e•
neral." The Report here referred to the recommendation,
that the 51aster-Generel should have no .other appoint.
meats of a former Report. Bot this was eitppressed,
.(he'
ought to say omitte.ds, and he thought he was entitled to ex-
press a little surprise that a inarrof such laborious research
should not have observed, and of such honesty should hare
omitted a second time to put the House in possession of this very
essential remainder part of the Report.--(1-1 ear, hear !)—The
Report then said—" It was only in consequence of this roam- i
mendation that it occurred to us to express this opinion on the
appointment of Lieutenant-(leneral, and unless this prelitni.el
nary arrangement be effected, we have nothing to offer on the:,
subject. Hear, hear, hear!)—Next he ..would endeavour to
show that the Commissioners bad themselves not understood I
Lord Moira when they gave it am his opinion that the utility of
the Lieut-General was contingent on the absence or illness of
the Mmter.fieneral. Neither were they right in attributing_to
Lord Chatham the same opinion "in a great measure." Die
reedy the reverse was the fact. Lord Moira's evidence went to
say, that he had no other business but as a Member of the
Board, therefore, fbr any thing the Commissioners had stated,
he might have other great and important business attached to
his appointment. Lord sloirasaid he formed the link which
united the civil and military duties of the department, and they
and the Hon. Gentleman opposite(Mr. Hume) would have done
well to have stopped there. The Commissioners said that "an
officer who had been soiong at the head of the department was
entitled to some consideration ;" and in that he (Mr. 'Ward)
perfectly agreed with theme and also, " that the slaster.Ge.
nail was frequently absent." The Hon. Member had been
guilty of great injustice towards Lord Chatham, in charging
him with what he did not mean to say did not accord with
thereat belief of the Honourable Member, with criminal con-
duct, because, when on his oath, he desired to- have more time
to answer to a point of much importance. Surely, this was
what every virtuous and correct man who wished to afford a trim
statement in answer would do ; and it was upon the strength of
it that the Hon. Member thought fit to charge him with the de-
sign to " manage" the matter,—(Hear, hear 1)-11e reproached
the 'Hon. Gentleman with this. Lord Chatham might have
enemies in that House, but never had he done that to deserve
'such a sentence as had'eacaped the lips of the Hon. Gentleman;
and least of all when in the discharge of a religioui duty.—
Lord Chatham having deliberately considered theanatter, did
express his astonishment that the mind of man could conceive
the necessity of asking such a question, and this was heightened
by the reflection of the respectable names which had filled the
appointment. He explained. what had been overlooked
by the Honontable Member, that he should not have sOokeii
so much- •on the subject ; but that the Commissioners had
asked hint to go into detail, in consideration of the Jul-
portanceof the subject. And it was in the lelnest endeavotir
to meet that request that the Noble Earl had provoked the lion.
Member's charge of having "managed" the nuttier betwixt
the oath by which he was bound, and the interest* of others.
—(Hear, hear, hear 1)—Independently of what the Lieutenant-1
General was instructed to do •in time absence of the Master. I
General, he had several specific duties extending over the mi.
litery questions upon which, in the diversity of business that
came under the cognizance of the Board, that officer was emi-
nently useful. If the House would look at the nature of the
appointment with this view, they would see that they were all
filled up by men of great military experience and eminence.
—lie need only mention the late lamented Sir Hildebrand
Oakes, Lord Amherst, Lord Howe, with a string of others
of the saute stamp, to prove his position. The Honourable
Member would do much better. be could assure him, to move '
for the abolition of his (Mr. Ward's) office, than that of the
Lieutenant-General. The honourable Member then went to
the evidence of Mr, Crew, whom he raised up against Lord ,
Chatham. Mr. Crew said, that besides, as a Member of the
Board, he knew of nothing the Lieut.-General had to do. But
lw entirely omitted his duties altogether distinct from the Board,
on the.shores of the River at the Tower, and at Woolwich, in'
'regulating and superintentling the exercise of the Carps, and nil
appertaining to the military constitution of it, as well as the
surveying of the Pensioners, as was done at Greenwich llmis.l
pitttl. Next, the lion. Member, if he rightly understood hint,
directed himself to Mow the House the necessity of abolishing
the Limit... General's Clerks. lie did not mean to quarrel with
the lion. Gentleman here; Ihr these Clerks had been abolished
ten years ago—(A laugh)—and upon his (Mr. Ward's) motion.
He hoped therefore the House would .not run away with the
idea that the offices Still existed.. lie did not know whether
the House would expect that he should follow the Honourable
Member for Aberdeen through all his various topics and gar-
bled statements. lie did not wish to use harsh expressions to,
wards the Honourable Member, nor do him the injustice to
attribnte his mistakes to him as designed ; but having only two
years ago taught a pitched battle with the lion. Gentleman on
precisely the same ground, he did not think it was altogether
requisite lie should again enter into the same field of discuss
sion. On that occasion, the lion. Member, as was custotnin't
with him, tout noule 111). attack upon hint of ticaTly two tumors
duration, without giving any previous notice of his intention ;
but such he might say was the integrity of the Officer that with.
out a figure in his pocket, or preliminary calculation of any
kind, lie was 'elite to compute on the spot, to the discomfiture
of the lion. Member. The motion of the lion. Gentleman said,
that the office of Lietttenent-General was unnecessary ; but the
lion. Gentleman said, that the whole ordnance was unneces-
sary. When, too, he thought fit to bring terward motions
winch threatened the situation of clerks and dependents upon
Government, he thought it would be but fair and generous In
the Hon. Gentlemen to give notice, in order that the unfortu-
nate individuals, whose only means of subsistence were thus
put in jeopardy, might have time to look about them. But it
wits always in this sort of way that the Ilon. Member acted,
when he proposed taking such a course. He had again resort.
eml to his favourite practice of comparing the present establish.
ments with those of 1709 e and in the present case with his
usual pertinence and fairness. When the difference of ex.
penditure was pointed out, It ought also to be shown the diffe.
risme there was in the bulk of the establishment. In 1792,
for instance, the corps was 4,000 strong ; now it was 8,000.
At that, period there was no Hovel Artillery ; there were no
Sleepers and Miners; then theyhad a Half-pa y List of 20,0001.,
now it amounted to 400,0001.—(11ear, hear ta—ln-1792, they
were 4 or 5 Colonies : now we had the West Indies with the
16 new Colonies added by the war. They had pereat arrears
of accounts to deal with.--(Hear, from Mr. liumeae-But
those arrears, lie begged to remind the lion. Member who had.
done him the honour to cheer hint, arose from the want of that
strength which the lion. M anther not only denied them, but
endeavoured to make still more requisite. It was not from
laziness but penury. lie could not conclude without advert-
ing to a most gm* unjust, and cruel misrepresentation
• which the Hon. Member had indulged. Ile alluded to the un-
qualified manner in which he had spoken of Colonel Chapman,
giving out that he had taken.4ool. a year to retire from, office
to make room fur some one else. It was upon this statement
that he appealed to thajustice of the most inveterate oppo-
nent of Government, and even of the lion. Gentleman him-
self, ,for he was not, he believed, an ill-natured man, to give
a verdict in that Gallant Office?* favour against the aspersions
which had been cast upon him. It was through his Grace the
Duke of Wellington that Colonel Chapman had received the
benefit complained of. Colonel Chapman, as they all knew,:
was a meritorious anti gallant officer of engineers. lie was
the only one surviving engineer of those who ehabled time Duke
.of Wellington to achieve the completion of the lines of Torres
Vedras, whichby an impregnable barrier accomplished the per-
fect security and defence of Portugal. by which his Grace had
rendered himself immortal. Colonel Chapman was princi-
pally useful to his Grace, n that work, and under the circutn-
etances he had already stated, was reconnnentled by hint to the
consideration of Government to be' remiarded far itlx zealous
services. He obtained the appointment alluded to by the
lion. tientletnatt, and when that was done away with, he
claimed the benefit intended to be conferred,: on hint by the
situation. This was tha history of that gallant officer's pen-
sion of 4001. a year, which by the floe. Member had been chg.-
metalled as a job.-.-(hear, hear I)—He was glad from the
Hon. Members' cheers, to see that lie was open to conviction.
The assertion was false, cruel,,and unjust; and if any one had
imputed it to that gallant officer, so as to umake the Hon.
Member believe it and bring it forward here, he would make
bold to say, he was guilty of a most malignant and nefarious de.
ception. After Having laboured night Midday to enable the hem
of this country to actomplish time great work of salvationaes lie
bad done; It was too much afterwards to be taunted in the British
House of Commons with implication in a miserable, dirty job.
-e(Hear, hear ! front both sides of the House.)--If those cheers
meant retraction on the part of , the Hon. Member, then he
would retract all lie had said on the subject.—(Hear, heart
from Mr. Hume.)—having thus brought down what was fitting
to satisfy time feelings of the Honourable individual in question,
he (Mr. Ward) would rest contented. Returning, therefore,
to the question, he would Abstain from following the Hop. ()en-
Oxman through the general invective he hail dealt in, and con-
fine himself to the single point, whether the appointment of
Lieutenatit.General of the Ordnance were a good One or not.
It the whole system had been, as so frequently declared by the
lion. limber, corrupt, he would have come down to that House
and demolished them long since-by piecemeal, whereas he had
been foiled in every attempt, either in genends or in particu.
tars. Hose could the Hon. Member undertake to say how the
Inetinees of the department was conducted during the late period
of vacancy ? Was ha in the precincts of the office during that
time ? Far his part (Mr. II aril), he could undertake' to say,
that his Gallant Friend behind him, the Sorveyor.General (Sits
U. B. Burgh), had been so overwhelmed with business as to be
obliged to work for a long time after the office hours mitt% own
residence, and this too, when his Gallant Friend possessed so

much greater a facility eergeiting through them himself. Fre-
cniently had Ise entreated him (Mr. Ward) to go with him to
assist to keep the busiuese under; but he had positively re-
fusetl.-.(A keep
were, it was true, the servants of
the public ; but that did not mean that they were slaves. They
'were. he would venture- to sky, as patriotic
,as the Honourable
Menthe), for 'Aberdeen ; although they might not possess his
strength of mind or body. For his own part, he was sure be
could not boast of a mind like his ; hit brain, he was sure,
would net bear half what the Hon. Member's must suffer. With
these advantages, he most sincerely wished it were in hit power
to persuade the Hon. Gentleman to come and do the work of his
office without salary, and without patronage—he was convinced
he would be tired of it in a week. To assist his case the Honour-
eble Gentleman instituted a comparison betwixt the Board of
Admiralty and the Board of Ordnance. Bute the Hon. Gentle-
man, for want of being properly instructed, be should rather
say, informed, had fallen into a most wicked error. When he
talked of the whole business of the Navy being conducted by a
Board of four Commissioner, whilst the Ordnance had five,
had the lion. Gentleman never heard of the Commissioners of
the Navy, at' the Victualling Board, of the Treasurer? Had he
never heard of the Outports, with all which the Admiralty
had nothing to do ? Did the Lords of the Admiralty audit
accounts ? No, but the Ordnance did. Were they manufac-
turers ? Did they cast their cannon or make their gunpowder ?
Ilad they any arsenal at Woolwich, or elsewhere of which
to superintend and regulate the operations ? No such work
fell to their hands,--they made contracts for what they wanted,
but that was all., And all this was suppressed in the Iron.
Gentleman's statement to the House, to purchase, he was
going to say, a ridiculous species of plausibility by contrasting
the numbers four and five. The same with regard to the ex:.
pence of the two Boards. Some people thought the Lords of
the Admiralty undezpaid. . Mr. Pitt said, the money-price was
nothing—they were paid in honour, and afterwards in high
commands. But then again, the Hon. 31ember went back to
1792 and, t 790, and talked of a rise in the salary of the different
Officers. Here was another gross error. Probably he knew
not that any rise that had taken place in the nominal amount
of the stipend had not covered the loss of fees that had ac-
crued. or his part he spoke feelingly ; for at this moment
be received 3001. a year less than his predecessor in 1790.
(Hear, hear !)—And he would venture to say he hail ten
times as much to do. This proceeded from the loss of fees.
Therefore, as the Honourable Gentleman wishixl salaries
to return to the, rate of 1791, he would be much obliged to
him to persuade the House to make that arrangement as re-
garded Mtn (Mr. !Vera). But in 1796 they had no Ireland to
deal with. The Irish Ordnance was an addition of 2,000 men.
He need not, however, go any farther in the tract of the Hon.
Gentleman. He had exposed his series of errors; he had de-
monstrated bow he had garbled the report of the Commis-
sioners, and that their report was remitted on evidence the re-
verse of their recommendation. He believed he might consider
he had done enough as regarded the House. But he could
not it down without giving what he could not but consider
the main argument after all, in answer to the report. Ile put
it to the Hon. Member if no change.in the state of things had
taken place since the date of that report ; and if so, how could
it appjy to the present case,? The Hon. Gentleman had surely
not forgotten what woe his own constant cry last year? Ile
had never ceased to tell the House to put this department and
that department upon the-Ordnance„ The Ordnance Board, he
said, can do more. His prayer was granted—the Commissa-
riat and Barrack Departments were thrown into the scale ; and
what then ? Why the Hon. Member came forward and said,
" Now diminish their strength." It was really alarming to
see with what unrelenting steps the lion. Gentleman followed
up his game. Surely it was destruction—it was nothing short
of annihilation he was bent upon. But was the House of
Commons to be dragged along with him in the track of de-
struction ? In that he hoped to see the Hon. Gentleman con-
vinced of his mistake. Had they saved -nothing by this consoe
Mallon of those two Departments ? It was at least 4,5001..
a year saved by the arrangement; and now the Hon. Mem-
ber hed the grace to come forward to take 1500/. a year from
them. An English House of Commons would not endure this.
Business hail been greatly 'enhanced by the excellent repast.
tions of the ;Raster-General of the Ordnance with regard to
the Colonies. Checks had been established in different parts
abroad, but were found inefficient securities against detalca.
tion. In consequence of this, with a privnyance which cha-
racterized his Grace
.more than any one who had pre.
'ceded him, he had done away with all these checks, substitut-
ing monthly reports to the Ordnance Office of every thing,
even, to a pound of /4110 t, and this on pain of instant distills.
Thns„ there were one hundred and one stations in
Great Britain alone, of every one ,of which they hail now to
pass the accounts, and be in daily correspondence. Besides
all this they hail the accounts of the barracks, of the store
branch, and the building branch of the two new services.—
They had to 'attend to every trifle connected with any of them
in any part of the Colonies. 'Thus there was an iron steeple to
be built at Trinitlati, the plan and arrangement for which must
go through the Ortintuice.—(A laugh.)—lf the Hon. Member
for Aberdeen, or any other Gentleman, would do all this for
honour, or nothing, as they did, and even less, with the reduc-
tion of ten per cent. in their salaries, he should be most happy'
to give him every facility in his ianver. In conclusion, he did
not think it necessary to move the previous question upon time'
motion before the llouse-Lhe thought he had shewn sufficient
reasons to induce' them to reject it, altogether.—(Reiterated
cheers.) •
Mr, IVILLIAMS observed, that the Speech of time honours.M
Me ember consleted chiefly of a charge of per Version of
facts on the part of his Honourable Friend, of animadversions
on the Report alluded to, anti of a celebration of former vic-
tories, alleged to have been obtained by thiellonourable. Mem-
ber, which he still remembered with pleasure. His Honour-
able Friend had founded his motion upon the recommendation
of the Commissioners of Military Inquiry; and, if those
Commissioners had been inadequate, others should be appoint-
ed in their stead. It hail been said, that his Hon. Friend
had
in perverted the evidence taken before that Committee,
andparticular the evidence of Lord Chatham but, if Lord
Chatham spoke of arduous duties its having been performed
by the Lieutenant-General of the Ordnance, it was only in
the absence of time Master-General. It would be trifling with
the House to propose rendering null, that eVidence, as it would
not be completed before midnight. He contended, however,
that the Report was perfeedy fair and specific, and that it had
borne out the recommendation ef his Honourable Friend; and
the chief reason that it assigned for this was, that the Master-
General should be confined to the ditties of his offiCe. That
restriction was the ground of the Report of the Commissioners.
Why then was it not adopted? If this hid been done, the ex-
pence of the Lieut.-General might have bden spared.. It was,
therefore, not without cause. that the Bon. Gentleman oppo-
site found fault with the construction which his Honourable
Friend had very fairly
.put upon that Reporte when he speaks
of farther inquiry aiebeing necessary in the off ce he abolished.
—He would pass by the other parts of the case, because the
part which was the most glaring, was that which, after the re-•
commendation of the Commie:tamers, went to continue the
office of the Lieutenant-General. This was in the very teeth of
the House. The office had been in part condemned ; and yet,
with this condemnation, and the continuation of the office be..
fore them, Ministers would tell the Ilouse and the country that
they were anxious for tetrenchment. Would any one credit this
declaration ? Was there any precedent for this Ministerial eco-
nomy ?' Was the reduction of time two Lords of time Admiralty a
voluntary act, or was it hot rather the result of their having been
driven from n strong hold ? 'Again, was any of the Postmasters.
General given up voluntarily? No, every retrenchment that had
been obtained had been obtained with difficulty, and everyplace
which they had given up had been resigned' with reluctance.
The profession at economy ought, therefore to be taken with
allowance. He hoped shat the House would come to a decision
upon the opinion of the Commilixioneri as etated)n the Relifitte
and not upon the -poareiriatifilikill Of the Ikon. Gentleman (Mr.
Ward),' as a tactician, although be hail been so anxious to
bring the war home to his Hone Friend. If they should not
accede toe the recommendation of his Non. Friend, then it
would be a Warning to the country no longer to rest satisfied
with professions, but to look to fulfilment. He was sorry to
have troubled the House at so great length, but in his opinion'
the, lion. Gentleman had not met the question.—(Hear !) •
Mr. Secretary CANNING., although he 4id not intend to
occupy theilouse at any great length, or follow the Honorable
Gentleman opposite into all the ramifications of the question,
yet, having been on a former night called upon to explain why
that office had been filled up,: having been at that time unpre.
pared to'give an answeeto this inquiry—having since paid every
poseible attention to it in all its hearings—having informed him-
self and come to a determinate conclusion, that a more false, un.
founded, or unnecessary allegation never was made, he could not
give a silent vote upon the occasion. The Hon. Gentleman had
broughthe
safohr that it ilt"Lcshaagrgaensst the recommendation of the with
every agravation. Not-only
Com-
missioners of Military enquiry—nee only had he described the
Office as useless—not only hail he attacked' the general polity of
the appointment ; but he had attacked the individual to whom
It had been given,and the personal motives for which it had
been given. He ad not only etiginatised it as useless to the
public, but had stigmatised ii. for die most corrupt principles,
and the basest motives—he had stigmatised the Nobleman on
whom the office had been conferreel, as wholly unworthy.—
(Cries of 4, No, no," answered by Cheeys.)_Vcs, he would
say, that the Noble Lord who had been appointed to the office,
had been described as unworthy of it; for, as if all his skill in
his profession—aslif all the services which he had rendered to his
country had not been enough to procure it for him, it had been
said that the office had' been given him on account of family
connexions.—(Cries of " No, no.")--The Gentlemen might say
;minable Meaning of the language
" No, no;" but he would affirm, that such was not merely the
II.) had used. Thotharge had
iwnetelliiedttlettithl. eGPenifitilveruglinacHr•

gime forth to the world, holding up this appointmezt 13 apublic
malversation and as private corruption ; and while that stood
'uncontradicted, the Noble Lord on whom the office had been
conferred, and the Government which had conferred it on him,
would labour under that charge—a charge which, after the most
minute inquiry, was, he would say, fulse—(Cheers.)—Yes, he
would say that it was false in every particular. It had been so
Proved by his Hon. Friend ( Mr. Ward), and he would, he hoped,
further confirm the proof ere hesat down. The motion averred,
that it ►vas said in the 13thaeporeof the of Mi-
litary Inquiry, the Lieutenant-General of the Ordnance was not
essential m time of war. Now he would say that this was not
to be found in the 'Report-:-that it "was not only unfounded, but
absolutely and wholly false. In that Report the Conunia-
sioners proceeded upon the belief that there was to be a regular
attendance of the Master-General, before the Lieutenant-Ge-
neral could be dispensed with. When it was said that the ,
office of the Lieutenant-General was not essential, it was at
the same time taken for granted, that the principal was not to
be withdrawn from the ditties of the office. It was necessary
that this document should not not be misunderstood, and for
this purpose he would read the words of it :—" Lord 3loira's
opinion of the utility of the office of Lieutenant-General, rests
on the contingency of the absence or illness of the Master-Ge-
neral; but Lord Chatham has stated, that this office is most
essential to the duly carrying on the business of the board, and
is the link of communication between the civil and military busi-

ness of the department ; so decided an opinion from an officer so
long at the head of the Ordnance, is entttled to much considera-
tion."—lt had been thus said, that the Lieutenant was notneas-

nary, only in the case of the Master being absent upon duty:—
The office of the Lieutenant was still held to be necessary,
only the' duties of It were not defined.—(Cheers.)—The Com-
missioners had only suggested, that two Clerks should be ap-
pointed Meet in the case of the absence of the principal. What,
in short, was done by this Committee ?—Why, they provided a
salary for the defunct Lieut.-General, and specified a sum as the
reward of his posthumous labours. They said that, in the event
of the duties of the office being done by the two Clerks, they
might dispense with the services of the senior Officer.—(Hear!)
Well, if the Hon. Gentleman meant to act upon the sugges-
tion of these Commissioners—if he means to demolish the name.
of Lieutenant-General of the Ordnance, and call the senior

Officer, who was to do the duty by another name, be (Mr.
Secretary Cunning) knew not what the public had to gain
by the matter. This was the extent of the proposal—
the recommendation of the Com mrnissioners would certainly ad-
mit of amusing of another name, but it made no provision for
the reduction. Now, if the only change was in the name, what
proceededAriiv
hoed n
n theo
t
liwuo;pl:l,6litteicoonmtieiaotfathcehaencogneorlayd ?
not
a change in the absolute arrangenient been recommended ? He
The whole
,llace.
was not prepared to argue this, abd there was no necessity for
it.--(Hear!)-The office would' have been recommended to
be abolished If it had been practicable, but the recommendation
went only to a change in the form. Now the motion did not
touch that. If the lion. Gentleman could persuade the Mouse
to make the change, then the recommendation of the Cool-
mistiionere would apply. The recommendation was one as
to the expediency of filling the office of Major-General of the
Ordnance by different men froM those who had hitherto filled
it ; but the fact was, that it had always been filled by men
of high military character. If the Hon. Gentleman thought
that wrong, then he should have proposed a change. But while
the Master-General remains the sante, it is admitted, that when
he is absent upon other duties, the Lieutenant should supply his
place. But he would ask the House if there was any thing in pre-
cedent- which would warrant the appointment of any but the
highest military characters in the situation of Master-General
of the Ordnance; or that should confine them to the office
details of that Office ? Vas it not when he held that situation,
that Marlborough had achieved the victory of Blenheim ? And
had not the Duke of Wellington, while he held the same office,
performed an important part in the Councils of Europe ? He
Commons to wish that the mode of filling the office should be
was sure that these examples would not induce the House of
changed. It would be found in the very Report that had
been alluded to, that if the filling of the Office of Master-
General were allowed to remain as at present (and he was sure
that Office ought always to .be filled by the most conspicuous
person of the profession), then the office of Lieutenant could
not be dispensed with. If the Master-General were to be the
most conspicuous person in the military profession, then he
ought not to be confined to the office duties' when the service
of the country might require him in other situations. if,
then, the Master-General were to remain as he is at present,
then the opinion of the Commissioners was that the office of
the Lieutenant-General should also be continued. But it had
been said that the present appointment had been the result of
corrupt influence ; and that on this account the Parliament
ought to carry to the foot of the Throne the expression of their
indignation. Now, of all the feelings which could enter into
the mind, of any man, It was very obvious that this had the
least foundation, and, if it were calmly considered, there was
none to be compared with it in point of absurdity. There was
not in that statement a shadow of truth ; for; if corrupt 'tutu-
enet .had operated in this case, never did corrupt influence
operate by so strange means. The office was filled up with
hesitation, and, after it had been vacant for four months—as if
there had been a reluctance between this corruption and con-
science. The office became vacant a few days before the Duke
of Wellinton left this country for the Continent. It was
vacant, he believed, on the 9th of September, and his Grace
went abroad on the 15th. In the interim he was confined to his
chamber by indisposition. In the interim the Duke, however,
did speak to his Majesty, and recommended, not one person, but
three of his companions in arms, as uncertain whether they
would accept of the office, and of these the office had been given
to the third. The Earl of Hopetoun had refused, and after him
Lord Hill, and it was only after the refusal of both that Lord
Beresford had been appointed.' After the Duke had, at Vienna,
learned of Earl Ilopetoun's refusal, he wrote a letter to Lord
Hill. Prom the tenor of that letter it would be seen whether
the office was one without duties, and whether it had been given
for family connexions. If it had been so given, then the letters
were specimens of the most consummate hypocrisy; and among
all the vices of which the Duke of Wellington had been ac-
cused, hypocrisy was certainly net one. But if he had in this
case acted the hypocrite ; then he must have suffered his diplo-
macy to infect hint to a very unusual degree. He would read
the letter to the House. •
The'Rightlloneurable Gentleman then read as follows :
" My dear 11111—You ere aware of the death of Lieutenant.
General Oakes, late Lieutenant-General of the Ordnance, and
it will be a great satisfaction to me to recommend you to the
King to fill that office. I know that it will be satisfetory to his
Matesty.
Mere Mr. Canning observed, "the Duke of Wellington
having mentioned Lord Hill to the King, before his departure
for. Vienna."]
" The office Is worth about 1,500/. per annum, but the busi-
ness is constant, and I am 'afraid will render necessary your
residence in London during a great period of the year, probably
the whole of it."
In answer to'this letter Lord Hill addressed one to the Duke
of 'Wellington, dated October 21, 1822, in which, after express-
ing his thanks for the offer of the office that had been made to
him, his Lordship says :--
" Under all circumstances, however, I feel that I had better
decline the offer. In the first place, I never have been accus-
tomed to office, and I fear I should but ill perform the busi-
ness which would he required of me. Secondly, the constant
residence in town would not only be unpleasant to me, but I
really think the confinement, which I have never been used to,
' would be very injurious to my health."
Such was the sinecure which had been offered to Lord Hill,
and which Ms Lordship had declined on account of the severity
of the ditties. Yes, he who had undergone the arduous fatigues,
the hardships, and the dangers of so many campaigns, had de-
clined to accept of this 'sinecure, because of the hardship of the
duty—because the Conatant oe.cupation would be too severe for
him, inured as he was to all the toils of the field, and because,
hardened as he was by actual aeraice' it would be injurious to
his health.—(Elear !)--This was the sinecure, of the ease of
which the Honourable Gentleman had taken so just an esti-
mate; this was the office to which, because there were no
duties to perform, Lord Beresford bad been appointed from
corrupt motives and on account of family connexions.—
(Cheers.)—But so it was:: the tenourof the Report of the Com-
missioners was violated. Sentiments were quoted which formed
no one part of that Report; and a Nnble'land (Lord Chatham)
was ehargedbastily, or without reflecting on consequences, with
wilful perjury, in the testimony given before those Commis-
sioners.--ilere the Right lion. Gentleman read the letter of the
Duke of Wellington, dated Verona, written immediately after
having received the limner letter from Lord Hilt It ran thus:—
" Vo, .
"My Dear Beresford--Yon are aware that Nov
theoffice of
Lieut.-General of the Ordnance is vacant, and I wish very
much that you would let me know if it would be agreeable to
you to fill it..
`s You
You must be aware of the respectability of the office in the
military world, and how ha
I should be to have your assist-
ance. The, value of the o ce is fifteen hundred pounds per
annum, and the only drawback I know of is the constant occu-
pation and attendance required in London."
Thus he still . went on, this incorrigible hypocrite ! always
mentioning the laborious nature of the duties of the office, and
been formed, expressly to serve a purpose this
the necesaity of a prolonged residence in town ; as if his letters
had prospectively
night, which it could never have been in human sagacity to
foresee, namely, an answer to the motion of this evening, in
affording a proof of the laborious nature of the place (now con-
tended to be a sinecure) out of the mouth of the Duke of Wel-
' lington himself. Then what was the House to think
of this
false, foul, deliberate, and mischievous calumny, on the best
and bravest blood in the land ? Personal merit, public cha-
meter, tried integrity, long years of faithful service in the path

of honour and renown, roust' all be satriAced, and tramplci
on, and insulted, to pave the way to the success of a lotion
like this. The effect of this motion being carried malitl„bLi
that a malignant.. false, and scandalous imputation, would be
cast on all the parties concerned. The tloverainent of u.
country Was Accused, the Duke of ll'ellington ivaa -mot"
and the Noble Lord was accused, of being patties to the most
~
corrupt arid disgraceful transactions. But he was enfi,lte
that as they were now put upon their trial in the eyes o,rtt.'
whole nation, they would, to the confusion of their saute , W.,
acquitted by the unanimous verdict of their country.--'
and continued cheering.)
Mr. HUME observed, that he would not.address the flea
with the heat that bad manifested itself in the manner of
.the.
Right Hon. Gentleman. He hoped it would not be tb,e, la. 1:
motion he should make—(A laugh).--intiarnmalde at t"iit.
Hon. Gentleman appeared. What had. been impilt.,,ltta'ke '
by gentlemen opposite wart false ; personal unwortnier b,
had never attributed to lend Beresford ; on the or
had particularly guarded himself on that point. ie fall, lets
imputing blame to Lord Iteresfori, he had . offered b I mit,
humble mead of praise. The Right Honourable lknt eb t
Iflourish about Blenheim and the Master-Generalsilife.
he Mr. Hume) could talk of Aralcheren and the Masterff
storage,
--(llear, hear !)—and let the 'tight Hon. dens'la
t a ki
inesginh t s che a rth
egeuo.asu t
xogfotir
ki ai tn.g—(inAel,irtaidittliteagryniti,itone)s,ti,:,-1
011,1.,1t1n101e
linttitilwi ii
e:es,ceier_iii)irttooi.ot:lfi'. c;u:t_ites.e.ll,ll;tectt.telltilio,,ginwrt,,i,,llll,_,
,I:
_tiii,alo4-i
it
the Right Hon. Gentleman had been flourishing and bnogina
t
' it Pita
this eminent individual before the House and that , _ 0.4
ef,organodt tatolkeoingsiatiboerutthaenyetshphenigebesutinthetbreisalsoitior,incon.
Right Honourable Gentleman had said his mown s'lo who
sistent with the recommendation of the Coonnissientm rot,
dial, in their belief, the appointment of. a. Liallteard
Gene was not essential to the constitutio.n of the'''. Tyrit
Ordnance. Could the Right Honourable Wideman relei
the fact, that the report was made in time of wart? ? „11,e that it
the Honourable Gentleman to come back to Perim. rt.,
was military Commissioners in time of ivar ofrennlrot bT
commendation. He did not upderstand wit° Was ...
probe
getting up cases, he was not iti the habit of so tieing, Loot 1
the Right Honourable Gentleman anti his friends wereniltial
home in Pally up cases. Ile wished the rerotoTr4:oo7,
of the Commissioners were given at length, by the 1:11;1, Tris•
Gentleman, not in garbled extracts. The Hengelo .0.00!
surer of the Ordnance had charged him. with tWi+l4,tipittert,;
to Colonel Chapman, who he represen`:erica
ge. - lia turP :
as the last of his race ; and yet this fir manr hi 'l;petl etr
ed oat to make room for a young Man Ow 'l3' -11 he4''''r'
WO other heads besides Colonel Cilapirian'A t btoi. sl)*
Horne) is the wretch who alone has done mitlaticielt: ;he Lieut.'
man ! It is not matter of speculation, but of facts .-1-latterlie'''
General having no duties, but in the absence of tile t, opt bf
of the Ordnance, Lord Ileresford Cain only be Moue the
tion•
Gentleman
absence of the Duke of Wellington. be
00e weilLll
Gentleman talk of the arduous ditties of the oe',"'i. 1004 f:
head by a moment's idleness. ' Ile ()Ir. IL) we" nos tae'
where there were thirteen clerks in 1796, there :sicAfrolufifti4
six ; and in another instance clerks hod inere . a the Toe.
to thirty-one. The establishments in Pall-lnall l',/,; tied 4.*1i.0„,
cost 10,000/. per annum, though he was OR -, of titt'im".
of that sum had been got rid of. The nisnageiilocll,
.00, . Ag;
racks was enormous ; we were a country 01 P°"l%o clerin' :it
'thane
knew l ileum leo
~ ,
.when he wax talking of' arduous official „,w. t . 4
business came down to these under clerks. 'pre Iles,, Ifty.o.
dCwoiansinsitussaddret Dwietpharßnatirement ks.andltreretiltone.reone.ol;tis
Man concluded by observing, that our foreign wetsrt` P"' .
he in sonic degree approved, was becoming olorwoNT!
othl
Ilea:thbeea do;e0hoped
p l w home
ot:p
(1 that
it ti
ehtyahvieoe
beenaeo Right
ni
inquired'wl li
tio
in .i t
The Gallery was then ordered to be clOreti fa ;,:
which however did not take place•
nto. , jiligSr*l!
Le 0130.1
jourlike
, i
Mr. M‘DONALD thought., be.fore a In.ol)('S.'ne °l'll-
the Ilon. Gentleman's should be carried, tbat !„°'„, thotoP
ought to be made into the necetaity of :that'll:le `but
against which the motion was directed. lntieri:llo„ ; bu,to4
tsances he should readily vote tier such a loPd°stria,ens l'' 00,C
o confessed that from the shape the motion had
..n some de..a>
thew Honourable Members near him Ore le so the'ea
embarrassed by the call which had licetittot:;idon ehichwit i;
'brehtLeiyr
en
know
coiningew, et e called
toh
atuhpraoccoltn
vtoluitiel vote for bowls i r . 1te1411.1,101
wt;ases
Ifsiooamuntedec: trainedm aas
pcno)rrepoAcittilyon
for iti basis a statement found in the of "rs of )11"bse
somepertion of the Rtport, of the Coininissieessoiy, tot
th
Inquiry, anti therefore it was of all thinga n.in the ta°ol
itt)itiollarzet,:e:,huelodf tfh.oeroCi onmomoipseitiniisoileles;bl:i::ttri woc-tricart:Ciih.le,lirellesini,„itdtWnilleatyiliiiinta‘Ti°l',l.llloo,ln‘ 4.'t.'hidiTteidolltll,fl:,.°l,;('
it rel."lenillgoaelling t' t for
i.O , (of
. r-teeneral of the Ordnance aloe 101 rel,
might be ripht that that re-medellina shoo
la taleerti!,llol.lol,
ceaarieledtli:
tlhieriliit:„ota:Aoo:thli: :
demoth subject,
jneci
uts,tlay:danthdertoefotarekhe
had not taken place. .111,11wate7`thtt
behovedrum, being on thePO"- 'A►
wort
it
considerl I)
i ipubic
mwhethero nti
- tii
t would.:
as e Hon. one
iendet.,noil hia3ollloo,nv.
person could be ; but, on the other hand, to sot lett 'i 'ices
deserved censure against the head of"' ilr'll
t" 6 in"
against his alajesty's Gov - the lo' IN' Paid/
Government he must top cep
°lto
mittee to enquire into the duties of the Odic
Generale of the. Ordnance. If others th`nightrion tot'"
i(lraPs;vd the Hon. Geatleman would Wive no ookef, „ co
the motion before the House, at"! null° ' 'l
of Inquiry. Gentlere at,
Mr.
Secretary
CANNING, beffre the 110 n; thought t'ip
Ws reply to the suggestion of his, I°P. riae"."' that he ,I;;I
fairnot towards
_ the Hon. Member for itber-e'lliro stet`'
t, fp
be exposed to unnecessary mortifteatinth
lihMree. „tea Withante/I.lV't,
ffor one would not consent to the motion ~,---I,ea with ,--,,, fp
;re bringing it forward he might have cons.; ;,,, 004 g 0
House.—(Cries on the 'proposition which he haug`n-ow spe,$14111;00
ouse.—(Cries of " Spoke, spoke 1)--.1,e lie- tieggnl
say new question_(crie, 07:- rser
were Gallery was then cleared for a tl7l;ken e'cri,'",,
re-admitted without any_ division havto„"-1 oft ae,„'",a,Pr
(.°ll.eHetedUTtC°HwliNtbSdOraNwi"sgpolttlett3 in 7:no.":n'but se:,oo9,t'
His Honourable Friend had contended that hatei 11"tily
not to continue in time of peace, which listoon, (le; v 1,111
i uring the war. He went along . with till' 11„ to r",,°,1.0
n thus, and thought it was especially neeessarife,;segr.'d g 1
expenditure or the country at a period of not, the' ii,
tress like the present, when perhaps we were
' l'l''
new contest.
Th '
' i e tsallery was again cleared.- I.lten-unanerseve4l:44°'
s.trangers were exeluded, Mr. Al`Dorretoolteit to le. ,
_Aniendinent, that a Committee should be , PS„ 010111t1110,11)
Intl. the duties; of the Lieutenant-titueral 01 "Hoag ,1
'
v. The Amendment was negatived, And
utbeberl Ore
. M. r. 111,7
. Pled on the original motion, when the 11 'ill
lOW* :
The othletrit - .., /3
- ''3oo •
- - VI 00.
- - - - ~....- ea' p
Majority ' Lott he o'
idneit.endthe Chancellor of the lischequer.--11° ; 0,1
to be read a second time to-morrow, o nests, e''
Ilouse • adjourned at Half-pattYTenreo'Cloelt•
OlrLd' Se r brought
ofthe um: a
wßei 1 I tttii
erneeuovi „Olt, 0

Ayes
N ocs

- ••

, 4
EIIN:INCIIESTER, ter 1
1;11:J3Ru/tit v- 19.--Yrdidierit:ii
for Witi) HYDE EAsT, Bart., 151 i t'le-i.,5 fits
inchester, in the room of JA:'01°1151
cased his E'"" of Stoneleigh : 111)",;Y:,. 11'
ll'
wag , ' sent iti ParliaMent. ',Fiv'tite•lLll
qui, ')rnt.Pr.,°"9-ill a very neat 'peed b
.) CO3;
G „ ~,o ',,,11,AN DOA. and sprontleil 11, e elev;
Sir ":,4 F'l :Esq. of ' Kiiinwo _. After to of
to
n t Ate roll
tsieci'DWAltD.matio most eloquen• c 0 ',,1
ar-,1
itors and •company present, wide'
of poll)
pp auded. It embraced n wide field
'
particularly the present state of the is'. oittri
,I, to NO
gratulate our ancient city An ''.l:l to
larne.on Sir EDWARD'S bring retarlitill P4ll
and meat, as he is a sotind Conslittiti°lEliol Ile i
c WI" lately Chief jaStitle ii.l Int iIIP/1"f
, ,fila het-
inome.shome to enjoy the 4i OLIO' '''„ bag ICI
his own country. Sir ErvelAnnu-ed 14°14
Freeman_ of Winchester between .., - 'Li CO-
hs!ving been a Ward of the late pul‘e,t'a Corti
t 5 o'clock Sir EnviAnn regaled the the %'„
Lion with lin elegant entertainment 314,0004'
Hart. Inn, which was serv'ed 'till."
his best manner. VI
lee°
Anu tin El. C
then he e ' r
tinted
For Mr. Kemp, : - ' ifs 01
YelterdaY' at two o'clockumbers be.. iltt
• sit j
For Mr. Nrkin% - ." Al 11117, or
Mr. KEMP Wan accordingly -declaretl
et 3 ci.',7 tile' -
the
friends. candidates
were
"rw3rds
413
r

ELE(,TIONS.