The Sun.
London, England, 1840-12-12 00:00:00

; t•

EVENING EDITION.

COURT OF SEWERS.

The Commissioners of Sewers for the city and liberties
of Westminster held a Special Court yesterday, at their
office, Greek-street, Soho-square, for the purpose of fur-
ther considering the proceedings to be taken on the sum-
monses issued against the different parishes.
T. L. Doeranosoal, Esq., took the Chair shortly after
eleven o'clock.
So much of the minutes of the last meeting as re-
lated to the business of the present one having been read,
The CHAIRMAN said that, from the opinions of Sir Wil-
liam Follett and Mr. Ogle, although it appeared that
those Learned Gentlemen were of opinion that it was
difficult to say that there was any property exempt from
the Sewers-rate, yet that there were certain descriptions
of property which, from the diffic:...i!ty of enforcing the
rate, might be considered to be virtually exempt, such
as churches, chapels, the Courts of Law, and the Houses
of Parliament. Now, he apprehended, that with regard t'
ecclesiastical property, the churchwardens were not perso-
nally lieble, and that the only way of enforcing the rate
was a levy upon the churches; and the churchwardens,
doubtlese, relied pion the impossibility of their making any
levy anon the chuithes without incurring the censures of the
Ecetesiaatical Courts. Now he proposed, with a view to
avoid litigation, that a case should b.e submitted to two
etninent civilians, with a view of ascertaining whether
there was any possibility of enforcing the vote with-
out incurring ecclesiastical censures. It the answer
should be in the affirmative, the churchwardens might
probably not persist in the opposition to the rate.
as he apprehended that it was upon the Ecclesiastical
Courts that they mainly relied for protection. If the
opinion should be in the negative, then these buildings
might be returned as in arrear at the end of the book, and
on the next presentation the jury, on having the matter ex-
plained to them, would probably relieve them from any
further rest,onsibility as regarded tlii, species of property.
Mr. Leetee thought the suggestion would have been
very well six months ago, but it was now too late ; they
had summoned parties before them who had told them they
would not pay, and therefore tey were bound to go on
with their pi4acess. The parties would not be bound by
any opinion but that of a superior Court, and therefore it
would be useless to spend more money in procuring opi-
nions.

The CHAIRMAN said that had the suggestion struck him
six months ago be should have submitted it to them.
Mr. LESLIE said that be had lost a motion on the sub-
ject tix months ago by a small majority before any of these
expenses bad been incurred. He should second Mr.
France's motion if the opinion of Messrs. Smith and Suns,
the solicitors, should be included among the papers.
Mr. FRANCE rose to move that there be submitted to the
inspection of Mr. Collier, and the other gentlemen attending
on behalf of thedifferent parishes, all the cases submitted
to Counsel, with the opinions thereon, and also the opi-
nions given by the solicitors to the Commissionerc He
thought this would be but just to all parties, in order that
they might know their exact position.
M. LESLIE seconded the motion. The case should in
every instance be submitted as well as the opinion. He
objec'ed to seeing the public money squandered in
litigation, and Messrs. Smiths. their solicitors, had given it ;
as their opinioa that although churches might be liable to
be rated, they apprehended that no rate could be levied,
inasmuch as there was no property on which a levy could
lawfully be made. They then went on, and got the opinion
of Sir W. Foltett, which went to the same extent. Sub-
sequently to the opinion of the solicitors having been given
they had gone and made a rate upon all this prcperty.
They should recollect that Mr. Collier only represented
the parish of St. Clement Danes. There were other pa-
rishes which had actually refused to pay the rate. He
should second Mr. Francis's motion.

Mr. C. F. ADEY supported the motion, which was
agreed to nun. con.
The Court then resumed the consideration of the pro-
ceedings to be taken on the summonses which had been
issued against the officers of the different parishes.
Mr. LESLIE thought the proper mode of proceeding
would be to issue warrants at once, the parties had been
summoned, they had refused to pay, and in the case of
an individual a warrant had been issued. He hoped no
unnecessar; delay would take place in procuring the set-
tlement of the question. but that they would go at once
to the superior Court ; it was no use getting any more
opinions, the parties would not be satisfied, without the
decision of a superior tribunal.
Mr. ADEY said, that with regard to churches and cha-
pels, there were two distinct questions—one as regarded
parish churches and the other district churches, the pro-
perty of which was vested in trustees. He would suggest
that the solicitors to the Court should confer with the
vestry clerks of the several parishes, and that as far as re-
garded the liability of churches to be rated, a special code
should be agreed upon between the parties, and submitted
to the Court of Queen's Bench for their opinion. If that
question should be determ;ned in their favour, then the Ties-
two might arise as to who were the partie,:liable ; but if
it should be decided that churches were not I:able, then
the other question fell to the ground. The worthy Com-
missioner concluded by making a motion to the effcce al-
luded to.
Mr. R. CHAMBERS seconded the motion.

Mr. LESLIE opposed the motion. Ne did not think the
gentleman representing the parishes were such dolts as to
be dragged into Court upon a special case. One of those
gentlemen had told them over and over again, that his
parish was unwilling to try the question. He believed
that the Commisssioners themselves were liable to the
whole of the expetues. A case had been tried in the
Court of Queen's Bench, the case of the Justices of Somer.
setshire, in which it had been decided that Commission
ers were Liable to ever) sixpties of the expenses. If the
CommissMriers were determined to act in opposition to the
opinion of their own solicitors and of counsel, the respon-
sibility must fall upon themselves alone". How would they
get. rid of the case of St. Giles? There the liability of
the poor-rates to contribute to the sewers-rates was I.is-
tinetly denied. Now how could any special case settle
that point ? 'hat gentle u.. gad distinctly stated that in
every thinr, d
he
had
_m. ..0 {,nr! honn •L

_ uooutugs, as ethot,..:o, Ch/Wei vestry rooms,
acilm;l-houses. and workhouses i 3 ti.c parish of S. Giles
and St. Gorge, Bloomsbury, the levying of the irate
would be opposed. Now, it they would take the case of
the parish of St. Giles, it would embrace all the questions.
The CHAIRMAN—Tht,re must be different actions.
Mr. ADEY—Tbat question would not be raised in the
special case.
Mr. LESLIE understood the parties objected to the rate
itself, that it was not made according to law, and it had
been distinctly stated that every objecticn would be taken
against it. The proper course to be pursued vas the
one that would be adopted in the case of an individual,
and he thought a distress should issue against St.
at once, so as to bring the question to an issue without
waittlig for a special case.
A COMMISSIONER--Will you sign the warrant ?
Mr. LESLIE— No; he would tell them why he would
not. The rate was not a legal rate inasmuch as the Chair-
man had no right to order the Jury out of Court. He
should like to see that question raised. St. Giles's bad
sol.eited them to try it, and he should therefore oppose
the motion as likely to incur great additional expense
without altaining the desired object.
Mr. BEACH supported :he motion as the only mode of
trying the question amicably, and as being the least ex-
pensive method of gettin 2,- it determined.
Mr. C. MAYHEW said the ground 1/,,W taken up seemed
to be that the Churchwardens were not the parties liable
to pay ;.iie sewers'-rates for the churches, he should, there-
for,: move es an amendment, that the solicitors be desired
to report to .he Court what parties should be oroceeded
against for the recovery of the rates from St. Giles's and
St. George's Bloomsbury.
Mr. T. DYER asked the Clerk if the Court bad ever
taken upon itself to alter the presentment of jury as to the
party to be assessed fur any property ? for instance, if the
jury presented that A. B. was liable, had the Court ever
taken the name of A. B. out of the book, and substituted
that of C. D. in its place?
The CLERK—NO, Sir.

Mr. MAYHEW said that the churches in Regent-street
and Regents'-park were assessed to the sewers' rates, and
that the rate was paid regularly, and the C irnmissionors
for that district were acting under precisely the same au-
thority as that Board.
The CHAIRMAN thought the special case would settle the
principle
of the lability of churches and other ecclesiasti-
cal eiiifi'oes to be rated. The churches in Regent-street
and the Regent's Park were new' bu I,:mgs, and might
therefore be liable, while oker ecelesia.eticd
might not. It would be desirable to grapple at once Kith
the moat difficult case, such as that et an old parish church,
and on a special case so drawn up to procure the opinion
of a superior Court.
After a rather stormy conversation between the Chair-
man, Mr. Leslie. and Mr. Beach, as to the fact of the f• -
tirement of the Jury affecting the legality of the rate, the
amendment was put and lost, on a show of hands, and the
original motion carried.
The Cusnamax said the next question WV; as to the
course to ue adopted in the case of the vestry-room, the
workhouse, the National School, and Shedden's Charity
Schools, in St. Giles's parish.
Mr. Cnaianatrs said that as 0.1 er parishes had paid the
rate it would be unjust to them to let this case stand over.
pia would therefore move that the solici ors be instructed
to draw up the form of a warrant to ba submitted to the
next Court.
Mr. DYER opposed the motion. It would be a retire-
Von on the clerk to suppose that he could not draw up a
warrant. If there was any necessity for a special warrant,
be thought the Court ought not to throw the respusibi.
lily of drawing it up upon the solicitors, but that they
should be empowered to take the opinion of s.)me gentle_
men at the bar. For his own part, he abhored special
warrants, and should oppose any reference to the solicitors.
The CLERK said there would be no difficulty if the form
approved of by Mr. Ogle were adopted by the Court.
Mr. LESLIE thought the shortest, way would be to trans_
fer the execution of the duties of the Commissioners alto-
gether to Mr. Ogle, as there seemed to be no getting on
without laugh.)
Mr. BUTT, the Vestry Clerk of St. •Gi:cs, having ex-
pressed a wish to be heard, was called ir.. lie complained
that in this, a novel case, in which hug.? mas,es of pro-
perty were rated for the first time, the Court were about
to proceed more precipitately than in ordinary cases. Six
months was usually allowed for payment before a warrant
was issued, and here three had scarcely elapsed.
The CRAIRMAN said that where the authority of the
Court had been denied, as it had been in the present in-
'tame' there would be no advantage gained by delay.
On the last occasion Mr. Butt had distinctly denied the
liability of the parish to the rate. If he now asked for
time on the same ground as the ether solicitors had done,
to consider of the subject,
granting it ; btu if ha had there could be no objection to
made up his mind, no advantage
could be gained by'delay,
Mr. BUTT said that the question bad assumed altogether a new shape; they had determined to get the opinion of
the Court, as regarded the liability of churches. Now, if
churches were liable, there would be at once an end of
the matter.
After a short discussion, tFe request of Mr. Butt was
panted, by a Ica,,ority of 6 to 4,

A discussion then ensiled as to the propriety of including
the liability of Churchwardens to pay the rate, as vrell as
the liability of churches to be rated, in the special case to
be submitted to the Court of Queen's Bench, .ind it was
ultimately agreed to leave that to be arranged by the
solicitors.
The SOLICITOR then read tLe case submitted t) Mr.
Ogle, and his opinion thereon as to the liabilities of the
Commissioners and the collectors in certain actions brought
against them, consequent upon the steps taken in regard
to the rate upon Kensington Palace, in which that gen-
tleman advised that they bad a good defence to the actions,
and recommended that a special case should be drawn up
for the opinion of the Court, as it would be advisable to
have the question decided at as little expense as possible, in-
asmuch, as if successful, even the Commissioners would
have to pay their awn expences.
Mr. LRSLIE asked if that meant that the expenses were
to come out of the Sewers-rate.

The SOLICITOR replied in the affirmative.
The CHAIRMAN said it was for the Court to determine
whether Sir W. Follett should be retained to argue the
special case. If so, he must have a special retainer, the
fee with which would be fifty guineas.
Mr. WlLLoconcv moved that Sir W. Follett be retained.
Sir G. FARRANT seconded the motion.
Mr. LESLIE—WiII his fee be paid out of the Sewers-rate ?
The CLECK —Yes
The motion was then put and carried, Mr. Leslie's
Icing the only hand held up against it.
There being no other business to be disposed of, the
Court adjourned.

FRANCE.

CHAMBER OF DEPUTIES.-StrTING OF DEC. 9:

The President took the chair at a quarter past two
o'clock.

The President announced that the order of the day
stood for a discussion on Friday, on the bill for closing
the account of 1838, and fcr a meeting in the bureaux
previously to the public sitting, to examine the bill for
lhe supplementary credits of 1840.
M. Glais Bizoin proposed that the meeting of the
bureaux for the examination of the Bill of Supplemen-
tory Credits for 1840 should be postponed, as the
Chamber was not in possession of the documents con-
nected with the fortifications, and he begged that they
might be communicated by the Ministry.
M. Auguis requested that the discussion on the ac-
counts of 1838 might also be postponed, as some com-
munications from the Government were necessary be-
fore they could be discussed.
M. Guizot said, a special Bill respecting fortifications
and particularly as regarded the fortifications of Paris,
would soon be presented to the Chamber, and the do-
cuments desired by M. Glais Bizoin would be annexed
to the Bill.

The proposition of adjournment made by N. Glais
Bizoin was then put to the vote. The first division
was doubtful ; on the second his proposition was re-
jected.
The proposition of M. Auguis respecting the discus-
sion on the accounts of 1838, was next put to the vote.
The Chamber decided on taking the discussion out of
the Order of the Day for Friday, but did not fix a day
for its coming on.
A Deputy now proposed that the Chamber should
adjourn to Saturday. The proposition was very gene-
rally supported.
The President asked if there was any opposition, and
there being none, it was ordered that the Chamber, at
the close of the present Sitting, should adjourn to
Saturday.
The Chamber then proceeded to the ballot on the
Bill for granting a supplementary credit of 700,000 f. to
foreigu refugees. The numbers were—For the Bill,
229 ; against it, 18.
It being now six o'clock, and there being nothing
else on the Order of the Day, the Chamber adjourned
to Saturday. It was understood that in consequence
of this adjournment the examination in the bureaux of
the Bill for supplementary credits on the estimates of
1840 would take place on Saturday, previously to the
public sitting, instead of Friday.