The Sun.
London, England, 1841-09-28 00:00:00

PRISONS.

Lord BROUGHAM rose to call the attention of their
Lordships to a motion which, as he understood it would
not be opposed, he should do in as few words as possible.
The subject was one of great importance, and one in
which the House had always expressed the greatest
interest—he meant the management of the prisons of the
realm. Their Lordships were aware that in 1835, when
the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth
was First Minister, an Act was passed, the object of
which was to amend the laws relating to the disci-
pline of prisons, and to make them, as far as was
practicable, uniform throughout the country. He was
ready to admit that very great improvements had been
effected by that law, but, nevertheless, some time
afterwards a Committee was appointed to devise
further improvements, of which the system was
evidently capable.—(Hear.) A Committee was
accordingly appointed, who examined witnesses, among
whom were many prisoners, and made a very valuable
report to their Lordships. Out of that report pro-
ceeded the Act of 1835, for the improvement of prison
discipline, by which very considerable alterations and
improvements were effected. The principal alteration
in that Act was, giving the Secretary of State
much larger powers of revising, approving, and re-
jecting the rules for prisons made by the local
Magistrates ; giving the Secretary of State the
power also of making rules himself, and of inspecting
prisons by himself, or others appointed by him, and,
above all—and that appeared to him the most im-
portant point—giving him the power to appoint
inspectors, who were authorised to examine the
state of the prisons, and to report to that House.
In consequence of that appointment, six Reports had
been made annually by the inspectors, and those Reports
contained a body ot useful information, not only to the
overnment—the Home Department, but those Re-
ports, pointing out from time to time breaches
F the rules of the prisons, and suggesting a
eriety of matter for the consideration of the Home
)epartment, and also making a variety of complaints
sgainst the different officers engaged in the manage-
eeent of the different prisons, the result had been,
that in a very great majority of instances,
.he subject-matter of complaint had been re-
nioved by the parties against whom the complaint had
teen made, and those complaints no longer existed.
He (Lord Brougham) was very far from thinking no
good had been done by the appointment of tese
inspectors ; on the contrary, he thought great good had
been accomplished. It appeared to him that those officers
had most faithfully performed their duties. They had
had a most delicate and difficult task imposed upon
them; they had to hear thecomplaints of persons who were
officers of the prisons, and in some instances were against
Magistrates themselves, and also against those persons
who were entrusted with the- management of prisons ;
nevertheless they had performed their duties in
a very satisfactory manner ; and no person could
read the latter Reports (he alluded to the
4th, sth, and 6th) without being satisfied that the
complaints made on the Ist and 2d Reports had the
effect of remedying the evil and correcting the abuse.
In a vast majority of cases the evils complained of had
been corrected by the visits of the inspectors. In some
cases the evils had not been corrected, and the inspectors
had reported in vain ; but in the generality of cases those
I:eports had been productive of the greatest good.
He was. about to state a few instances to show the neces-
sity of further interference on the part of the Secretary
of State, and in calling their Lordships' attention to that
part of the subject he should avoid stating either the
names of individuals or even the names of the prisons re-
ferred to, and his reason for so acting was, that at that late
period of the Session those statements would be dissemi-
nated throughout the country, and a publicity would be
given to them which it would be impossible for
any other persons to hope to 'equal, and the conse-
quence would be that for the next three or four months,
those persons against whom their complaints might be
made would have no opportunity of being heard
in their defence, or even of offering any explanation of their
conduct with anything like the publicity with which
those charges would have been disseminated. No doubt
it might be said that he was speaking of things
which had already appeared in print in the
Inspector's report, but not one hundredth part of the
persons land read or would read them in those
reports, who would read what might be stated
on the subject in Parliament, more especially, if
those statements contained charges against individuals.
For those reasons he should abstain from mentioning any
names, and content himself with laying before their Lord-
ships certain facts which he considered to be well worthy
their attention. He had, in calling their Lordships' at-
tention to the necessity that existed for repealing
certain dormant statutes, stated that no blame
attached to the magistrates for enforcing the
provisions of such statutes. His attention had been
dawn to those Reports in consequence of those cases to
which he had alluded ; and he found that, in what
he had said on that subject, he had rather under-'
;toted than overstated the case. He had stated, that if
the persons convicted in the penalty of is. and costs for
having been absent from church for one Sunday without
reasonable excuse—one had been in prison for sixty-one,
and another for sixty-three days ; but, on referring to
these reports, he found one person had been in confinment
ten weeks, in consequence of being convicted in a penalty
1 Is. with 14s. costs, for having been absent from
• 'lurch for one Sunday without reasonable ex •
Ise. At the end of seventy days, application was
mode to the Secretary of State, when he was
pi.:a.sed to recommend her Majesty to pardon
this man for having been absent from church
for one Sunday, and he was released, after having
suffered seventy days' imprisonment. He could hardly
roust himself to speak of such a case, but he would
say, that if anything could tend to the desecration
of the Sabbath, it was such conduct as that.. He had been
informed that the informations had been laid against these
persons by a Magistrate, and he should expect that inquiry
should be made into the subject at the Home Department.
•—(Hear, hear.) • It was true that when an infor-
mation was proved before a Board of Justices,
they could not avoid convicting, but if a Magistrate
had laid these informations before other justices, for the
purpose of awakening these dormant, he wished he
could say obsolete, statutes, then he could not consider that
the Magistrate so laying the informations was without
blame. Then he had been told, by way of excuse, that
these people were persons of bad character; good-for-no-
thing people, who had been guilty of other excesses, and
that it was for the purpose of punishing them for
their excesses that this dormant statute had been
.evakened. Now, that appeared to him to be rather
an aggravation than an excuse—for every magistrate
caught to know that there was nothing more calculated
to bring the administration of justice into contempt
than to convict a person of one offence and sentence him
for another. One great source of inconvenience was the
variety that existed in the management of these prisons.
In one prison a small portion of animal food was allowed
to the prisoners, while in another no animal food what-
ever was allowed. The diet allowed to persons sentenced
to hard labour was generally reported as too low, and
in one particular prison it was so low that many of the
prisoners were suffering from a disease, which he be
thad lieved was now peculiar to prisons,' although at one time
d been prevalent in this country—he meant the
•en scurvy. In the case alluded to it was clear that the
diet was below what it %tight to be, and the report
,1 the medical men all went to show that low
diet was one of the principal causes of the disease.
In that prison the proportion of persons in the hospital
amounted, at the time the Report was made, to ten per-
sons out of fifty, the total number of those in the prison ;
thus, one-fifth of the inmates
of the prison were in the
iospital, and the medical officer of the prison had
stated that such was theusual prOportion. Now, it
was clear that -there must be
something wrong in the
prison t
pea eagernent of. the
givene so large a propor-
tioninmates of the hospitacts
his would not enter fur-
ther as
into particulars, as it NV
ewith reference to the pages •
intention to furnish
the Horne
in
the Reports in which those particulars were st
.ee ;'„t
erder that those evils 'might be remedied.- a
There was another abuse, *4116 it appearee'd ‘tO-h(linetearre.)-
g.a:.,ler having an in-
iired a remedy, and that was the
"ply of articles to the
s:rest—a direct interest—in the sir-
hetisiheouplricishoenavetonowhhainchd
. ee was quite clear thte.in
prison.
in these matters whatever,
les had adverted,h
.gaoler peovided a great e-
e d
te
artieleg, and one r't them he particularly reeell'eeatneY
tvas beer. T:ie gaoler charged the ma
14. 4d. a gallon for • the beer, but paids r:tles
the er.ilon himself It was clearly a very great abuser'
that lee should have any hand in the matter ; and it
vas a still greater abuse, that he should make that
eetra charge. The attendance of the officers, also,
varied very much, and more than he should have
supposed. In most prisons the chaplain did
itie, duty. He attended not merely on Sundays
%ill other days of public worship, but he visited
tile prisoners in their cells, and gave them
_ .

cases,
spiritual advice. In the vast majority of the then,
the duty was well performed ,
st remarkably that
• but in the reorts there
s' re many exceptions. It was mo
they occurred in the priseras which. were most
munerously filled, and where, the salaries
question
lain 3 were most f„,pie, The next
tf the chap-
-ro which he sh-„iid refer was the punishment
of prisoners ;
erso nal
-..nd it was greatly to be regretted- that
p
P'.atshment, flogging, should be allowed. He
_.n-
t1 " M to sa that in case shuld be i
u1f.441,. butean he thought no
o
the more sparingly it wasit resorted
0 the better. Their Lordships would observe that the
punishment was inflicted publicly, and in order to deter
by "araPie, but if their Lordships would look at the Report to which he was now referring they would find that
thtl example could not be said to boa very wholsome one
In that respect. Their Lordships were aware that the
keeper of a prison had the power of inflicting punish-
ments of a lesser description, and for ordinary olfences--.
ha meant breaches of prison discipline. He had the power
a confinement, and one or two smaller matters of th at sort ;
but for any thing beyond that, he must go before the
visiting Judges. In the case to which he (Lord B. al-
luded, the punishment was twelve dozen
of lashes, in-
flicted upon the complaint of the keeper, against a
person who appeared to hare been a very Ti-
dolls person indeed—vvho had been thirty times in
ptison, but for offences connected with the game-
iaws, such as poaching. The individual was evidently
what must be called an incorrigible person. It did not
appear what' the offence was for which that punishment was given, but it seemed to be for generally refractory
and mutinous conduct, without any speeial act being
done to warrant the punishment. The person was
:-..0t only mutinous himself, but also encourages

• the other prisoners to violate the laws of the prison.
Notwithstanding twelve dozen lashes ought not to be
given. Nothing could be more shocking In its effect on
the rest of the community than a Magistrate suffering
himself to be surprised into such conduct. A very great
variety had been found to exist in the discipline of different
prisons. He would state some instances of that variety,
because the matter appeared to him of great conse-
quence with regard to ends of justice. He would take
three counties, Buckinghamshire, Berkshire, and Hert-
fordshire, and he would show to their Lordships how great
an amount of inflictions varied in the prisons of those coun-
ties. He took these counties merely because they were
contiguous. In Bucks the number of punishments for
breaches in prison discipline amounted to only one pu-
nishment for three persons, that was, there being 135 per-
sons as the average number of prisoners, the number of
punishments were 43. In the next county, Berks, let him
take one of the gaols, and he found that the punishments
were not one to three persons, but three to two persons,
that was 63 punishments to 42 persons, being 44
greater than in the adjoining county. In another
gaol in the same county of Berks, the proportion got up
to double, the punishments being three to one person.
Then in the county of Herts, the proportions
rose still higher, for there it was four punishments
for one person, which was twelve times worse than in the
county of Bucks. Next, in the county in which they
then were, he found that in one of the prisons of the
City the proportion was five punishments to two per-
sons. In another prison, it was three punish-
ments to two persons ; and, in the third prison
in this city it was nine punishments to one person
being six times greater than in the other prisons of the
same county, and twenty-seven times greater than
in the country. Now it was perfectly impos-
sible from the nature and the habits of the
individuals that there should be such a ,differ-
ence in the amount of punishment. Greater uni-
formity ought to be observed in the administration of the
prison rules, particularly as there was uniformity esta-
blished in the rules since 1835. He wished also to call
their Lordships' attention to the fact of untried
prisoners being confined in the same places with con-
victs, when there did not appear to be any necessity for
such from want of accommodation in the prison.
Several untried prisoners were also subjected to the
prison dress.—(Hear, hear.) Now these were sub-
jects to which he wished to draw the notice
of the authorities at the Home Department.
There was one complaint to which he must allude of a
very extraordinary nature. A prisoner stated to the
Inspector that he had been illegally detained in custody,
having been committed for trial at the Sessions, and having,
after te lapse of some days, been called up by the keeper
and told by him that he had been summarily convicted
and adjudged to 12 months' imprisonment. He (Lord
Brougham) thought that a very odd state of circum-
stances, for it looked to him very like the case of a per-
son who had been tried and sentenced to 12 months'
imprisonment in his absence.—(Hear, hear.) The
Inspector reported the case to the Secretary of State, who
ordered him immediate liberation. He (Lord B.) thought
that inquiry ought to be made with respect to whom the
fault lay in that case. He admitted that it was quite im-
possible that these volumes of reports of the Inspectors
could be all throughly read and acted upon by the
Home Department. He imputed no blame to that de-
partment for not having acted upon the earlier reports;
on the contrary, he was of opinion that the fittest course
to take was to allow the reports to be made and laid
before Parliament, in order to give an opportunity
to the parties complained of to alter the course they had
adopted. That course he was happy to say had been pro-
ductive of great good, and it was not until the present
moment that it became necessary to move for the cor-
respondence that had taken place relative to the last
Report. He (Lord Brougham) could not but express
his regret at the course that had been taken in the
Home-office, of diminishing the number of its legal
officers, as he was sure that the appointment of So-
licitor to that Department would have been a
saving, and not a lavish expenditure of the
public money, and he was sorry that the individual who
had filled that office should have thought it necessary to
have relinquished that office till inquiry had been made
into the subject. In the motion he was about to submit
to the House he wished to state that he imputed no blame
to the Home-office, and it gave him the greatest satisfac-
tion to bear testimony to the excellent manner in which
his Noble Friend (the Marquis of Normanby) had con-
ducted the business of that office. No person had ever
conducted that department better than he had done, or
with more firmness.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord
concluded by moving that a humble address be presented
to her Majesty, praying that she would be graciously
pleased to give directions that there be laid before the
House at the commencement of the next Session an ac-
count of any proceedings had by the Home-office, in
consequence of the Sixth Report of the Inspector of
Prisons, as far as it could be deemed consistent with the
public service.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said Parliament having
reposed very great power in the Secretary of State, it was
desirable that they should have full information
as to all proceedings that took place under that
authority. Not knowing much, personally, of the
statements of his Noble and Learned Friend, he did not
intend to trespass at any length upon their Lord-
ships ; and, without knowing exactly the details of
each case, it was impossible to judge how far
the interference of Parliament was necessary. If it
were true that punishment such as his Noble and Learned
Friend had referred to, had been inflicted, he had
no doubt that the case would be fully
investigated more particularly, as his Noble and Learned
Friend had intimated his intention to send a note to
his Noble Friend the Secretary of State. He had
no objection whatever to the motion ; on the
contrary, he was anxious that all the requisite
information should be supplied ; but he suggested, for
the consideration of his Noble Friend, whether his ad-
dress could be presented, calling upon the Crown to order
information to be laid prospectively before the next Ses-
sion of Parliament.

Lord BROUGHAM said it was merely a direction—
the motion was in the ordinary shape.
The LORD CHANCELLOR suggested that the
words "next Session of Parliament" might be omitted.
Lord CAMPBELL agreed in the remark of the
Noble Duke opposite, that the motion for prospec-
tive information would he an interference with the pri-
leges of Parliament. While he was on his legs 'fie
begged to call the attention of their Lordships to the want
of law assistance at the Home-office. No man •Has more
sensible of the great zeal and ability of Mr. slaule ; but
he thought the public service was likely to suffer, if
further legal assistance was not given :ii that department.
The motion was then agreed to, and their Lordships
Adjourned till to-morrow.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Sept. 27.
Lord G. Somerset for Monmouthshire, Lord Eliot for
East Cornwall, Sir W. Rae for Buteshire, and Mr. Tuite
for Westmeath, took the oaths and their seats.

CORN-LAWS.
Mr. SHEPPARD presented a petition from manu-
facturing labourers at Frome, praying for the repeal of
the Corn-laws. The Hon. Member said he had been
requested to support the prayer of the petition, but being
diametrically opposed to it, he was unable to do so.
An HON. MEMBER, on the same side, presented a
similar petition from Forfar.
An HoN. MEMBER presented a petition from the in-
habitants of the Kent-road, praying for the abolition of
tolls on the metropolitan bridges.
PRIVATE BILLS.
Mr. GREENE moved that all Standing Orders regu-
lating the practice of this House and of the Private
Bill-office, with reference to Estate and Name Bills, he,
during the present Session, suspended ; that all
such Bills during this Session be, after their
second reading, referred to a Select Committee;
that such Committee do consist of the folLming Mem-
bers :7--Mr. Greene, Mr. Estcourt, Mr. Aglionby, Mr.
Tatton Egerton, and Mr. Walker. ':bat three be the
quorum. That it be an instructi'Ai to such Committee,
to inquire whether there be ar:
f Standing Orders apply-
ing to such Bills, and, 4_. so, whether they have been
complied with ; and ti at they do report the same spe-
cially to the How
C. That such Committee have power
to report on tte s
Bills be pr, ame day on which they sit. That such
emitted to proceed de die in diem through all
their o'• •
Amer stages.—Agreed to.
NEW WRIT.

On the motion of Mr. TURN-ELL, a new writ was
ordered for the city of Hereford, in the room of Henry
Hobhouse, Esq., who, since his election, had accepted
the Chiltern Hundreds.

ELECTION PETITIONS.
The SPEAKER reported to the House that the sure-
ties in the petition complaining of an undue return
for Dudley, and in one of the petitions complaining
of an undue return for Barnstaple, had been reported to
be unobjectionable ; and that the other petition, com-
plaining of an undue return for Barnstaple,had not been
perfected.

- Mr. EWART gave notice that he would move next Ses-
sion for a reduction of the duties on timber and sugar,
and begged to state that, in consequence of the motion
of his Honourable Friend the Member for Greenock,
he would not bring forward the motion of
which he had given notice for to-morrow, for a renewal
of the Import Duties Committee, but would do so in a
different shape at another time.
On the Report of the Committee of Supply being
brought up,
Captain PECHELL said he regretted the absence
opportunity
nbei t
yr
ef of re
xpressir.
g Dorchester,his butsen t
ihme
eni
nogt
omit
ofthe
thee Hon.o p
the misapprehensions on the part of militar3elmiten; upon
the subject, which was brought forward before- the Houseon
by his Hon. and Gallant Friend the Member for Maryle-
bone. That Hon. Member stated the unfitness of cer-
tain stores for the use, either of the army or
navy, and that a naval officer should be placed over the
Board of Ordnance, to which the Member for Tamworth
replied, that there was no occasion for a naval officer
being so placed over that Board. In that proposition
he entirely concurred. He thought it competent
for any officer in the army to be attached to the Board
of Ordnance, but what he contended for was, that the
Board of Ordnance was so connected with the Admiralty
that it was absolutely necessary that a naval officer should be
placed over the Ordnance Board. It was surprising that his
Hon. and Gallant Friend and Sir R. Stopford were able
to elicit the thanks of the Hoise, owing to the inefficient
state of the Naval Department as to stores and muskets.
He should always find it imperative on him, when the
Ordnance Estimates were brought forward, to give free
expression to his sentiments on subject.this
the m-
Hon. Me
Captain PLIJMRIDGE concurred in
bees remark, but would reserve what he had to say fora
future occasion.
2) Twhe as.
tt
he pe
no r
bt
roonu
gt hh et An
pdmin ,
and. s trat
orderedi o n o ft Justiceo bbe
read B 1 (No.
third
time to-morrow.
The Order of the Day for going • into a Committee of
Supply was read, for the purpose of postponing it till
Monday next.
The Population Payment* Bill went through a Com-

mittee, and the Report was ordered to be brought up
to-morrow.

On the motion for going into Committee on Ways
and Means,
LOYALTY OF THE TORIES.
Sir C. BROOK VERE said he knew it would be con-
sidered wrong on his part to allude to a former
debate, so far as it respected himself per-
sonally ; but as the Honourable Member for Man-
chester had made some very severe remarks on
Agricultural Associations, and had named one in parti-
ticular, the Saxemundham Association, he claimed the
indulgence of the House for a few moments while he
made a few observations in reference to that, Association.
He had that day received a letter from a Noble Lord,
the President of that Association, in which he com-
plained of the remarks of the Hon. Member. The
Hon. Member had said that this Association exhibited
all the marks of a Conservative Association, that they
drank the health of her Majesty with faint cheers,
whilst the health of the Queen Dowager was received
with nine times nine. The Earl of Stradbroke was
in the Chair when the health of her Majesty was pro-
posed. He introduced the toast as follows :—" He
had the honour to propose a toast which
would be always received with the greatest
affection by her subjects—the health of her Majesty, and
may her Majesty long live in the hearts of her subjects,
and be respected by all the nations of the earth."—
(Cries of " Hear, hear," on the Ministerial benches.)
He (Sir C. B.) could say, from his own knowledge, that
the toast was received with every mark of respect and
affection. There were the usual cheers, with three times
three. " God save the Queen" was sung, the company
standing. The Honourable Member himself belonged to
the Association, but was not present upon the occasion,
and that Association was not one formed for political
purposes. The Earl of Stradbroke stated in a letter to
him (Sir C. B. Vere) that the statement made
by the Honourable Member for Manchester was
entirely unfounded. He added, that during the
ten years the Society had been in existence, he
lad not allowed a word of a party nature to escape his
lips. He had only to say in conclusion, that the Society
since its commencement had, in his belief, conferred
great benefits on the agricultural interests, as well as the
labouring classes.
Mr. M. GIBSON said, that if the House would allow
him to make a few remarks in reply to what had fallen
from the Hon. and Gallant Member, he should first
observe that there was a wide difference between propos-
ing a toast and drinking it. He could well conceive
that the Noble Lord in the Chair had proposed the
health of her Majesty in very becoming terms, but it did
not therefore follow that the meeting responded
to those terms in a manner which might have been ex-
pected on the occasion. The Hon. and Gailant Member
had stated that he had been at the meeting, and that the
health of the Queen was drank with the usual honours.
But he (Mr. Gibson) could say that a friend of his had
also been present, and that, not only was there a prefer-
ence shown in receiving the health of the Queen Dowager,
but that he had heard some hisses. However that might
be, it appeared from a statement in the Ipswich Express, li
that the health of the Queen was received in the usual
manner, while the mention of the Queen Dowager's name
created the loudest applause. The Ipswich Journal
confirmed that account. He would also remind the
House that at the Chelmsford dinner the other day, the
Noble Lerd in the chair actually cautioned the meet-
ing to drink the Queen's health with the usual acclama-
tion, to avoid, as he said, the censure of disloyalty.—
(" Hear, hear," on the Opposition benches.) In reply
to the Hon. and Gallant Member's statement, that no
political allusion was ever made at the meetings of the
society, he begged to remind him, that he himself stated at
the very dinner in question, that he could not help ex-
pressing the satisfactioa he felt at the late change in
the Administration, and at finding that their pro-
perties and interests were now in safe keeping.
Those were not the exact words, but they were the
sentiments ; and they conveyed clearly the meaning of
what the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman said. He (Mr.
Gibson) had not made an extract from the Speech, but
he was sure he was correct as to its meaning. Ile was far
from imputing to any individual or to the Hon.
and Gallant Knight any desire on his part to
mark the toast of her Majesty's health by disapprobation,
nor did he wish to impute any such feeling to the divines,
military officers, and agriculturists, who sat around on the
occasion but it was his belief that there was such
marked difference between the mode of drinking; her
Majesty's health, and that of the Queen Dowager on
the occasion referred to, as practically to amount to an
insult to the Queee.
Mr. EWART said that he had received a letter
that morning, in which it was stated that there was such
a feeling towards the Queen Dowager, in consequence of
her Christian virtues, that the writer, the Hon. Member
for Suffolk (as we understood) was afraid of
making a speech on the occasion. Were not, he
would ask, the Christian virtues of her Ma-
jesty equal to those of the Queen Dowager ?
—(Cries from the Ministerial benches of "'They are,
they are.") It' so, then why give superiority of applause
to one over the other, or, he should rather say, why ex-
hibit that political feeling ?

Sir C. BROOK VER-E said that the applause was
given at the mention of the Queen Dowager's name
from long acquaintance with her virtues. As to loyalty,
he begged leave to say that that association was a true
one, and the county which it represented equally so.
He (Sir C. B. Vere) held that loyalty was not to be
measured by cheers.
Sir C. BURRELL was confident that a grosser insult
was never offered to the Queen of this country than that
report. He believed that at public meetings persons were at
liberty to express their good will towards any one w,thout
any imputation of disloyalty The charge in the prdent case
',
was as unjust as it was indifferent to the
Arty against
whom it was made.—(Cheers.) In hi opinion the evi-
dence as not sufficient to justify t.,echarge.
Sir E. KERRISON—I was present when the charge
was made by the Hon. MM ember, and then I knew it
to be unfounded. J. have the honour to know
_
Lord Stradbroke -well, and feel quite certain that
no man exceeds 'Jilin in loyalty, and that the charge was
false. How does the Hon. Member justify that other
charge h made, that all agricultural associations were
_
turne',intopolitical ones? I deny that charge emphatically.
I 'Am President of an Agricultural Associatic n in the
county of Suffiilk, and in order to render it wholly
free from having any political bearing, I asked for,
and obtained the assistance of, a Whig friend to
act as Secretary. I went further, and introduced into
the rules and regulations one which was to the
effect that any Member who thought proper to
talk politics in the Association should be excluded
the Society. I defy any one to contradict any statement
I have made, and I am the man to deny those of the Hon,
Member.

Mr. GIBSON—The Honourable and Mem-
ber was not present at the meeting. 1 was in-
formed by a gentleman who was present, and he
said he heard the proceedings with great pain, and
that many other gentlemen h?; expressed the same
feeling. He himself heard 50;416 few hisses.—(Loud cries
of " Spoke.")
Colonel COKE denied that Agricultural As-
sociations
any
way made political engines. He
was to have reresided over a meeting only last Friday ;
and, as , could not attend, he had written to beg a
Whig f kriend to take the Chair.

WAYS AND MEANS.
The House then went into a Committee of `Yap and
Means.

Mr. GOULBURN said, as the House had made all
those supplies during the present Session which were
necessary for the public service, he rose, in conformity
with the usual practice, to state to the House the mode in
which he considered it advisable the ways and means
should be furnished to meet the supplies the House had
already voted; and in doing so he believed it would not be
necessary for him to trouble the House with lengthened de-
tails such as on other occasions had formed so large a por-
tion of the addresses of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
under similar circumstances. So short a time had elapsed
since these details had been brought before the House
and the country by the Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr.
Baring), and so few changes had occurred in the state
of the revenue or expenditure since that period
that he should only be unnecessarily fatiguing
the House if he were to follow the Right
Honourable Gentleman through those details, which
he then explained to them, and which proceeding on
his part Would be' only a repetition, which he was sure
the House would be thankful to escape. He should
content himself, therefore, by briefly adverting to the
general result which the Right Hon. Gentleman then
communicated to the House, and stating to the House
what were the means by which they proposed to equa-
lise the revenue and expenditure, or, in Parliamentry
phrase, to furnish the Nays and Means for meeting the
supplie s. The supplies which the House had voted
during the present Session of Parliament amounted to
1,727,0001., and consisted, first, of that portion (lithe miscel-
laneous estimates which was not voted in the last Parlia-
ment, of the Commissariat, and of the Canada estimates, of
which a part only was voted in the last Session ; and
to those votes, left unsatisfied in the course of last Ses-
sion, he had to add the supernumerary estimate for
the Ordnance, amounting to 67,0001., and a de-
ficiency in the Ways and Means last Session,
to meet the supplies then voted, 24,896/., making a total
of 1,727,4321., which had been voted in Committee of
Supply, in the course of the present Session, in addi-
tion to what had been voted in Comniittee
of Supply last year. The House was aware
there was a charge for payment ,of the interest
on Exchequer Bills, tor which it was necessary ways and
means should be provided, which was no longer voted
by Parliament, but which was directed to be paid
by an Act of the Legislature out of the supplies for the
year, and must necessarily be taken into consideration
as Ways and Means to be provided. The amount of in-
terest on these Exchequer Bills for the present year was
740,0001., which, added to the sum he had previously stated
as voted in supply of 1,700,0001., left a total of 2,467,4321.
The House would recollect that in the course of last
Session, when the Right Honourable Gentleman op-
posite took a review of the receipt and expenditure of
the country, he assumed the receipt to be a sum of
48,310,000 t, and the expenditure to be provided for
was 50,731,0001. leaving a deficiency to nearly the amount
of what he stated as necessary to equalise the amount of
Ways and Means which had been voted in the present
Session. The sums were nearly equal, because, in the
course of the preceding Session the Right Hon. Gentleman
had voted the whole of the Ways and Means for the public
service. The Ways and Means were nearly as equal as
he calculated would be the probable deficiencies of the
year. During the five months which had elapsed since
the Right Hon. Gentleman had stated the deficiency, he
did not think any circumstances hadoccurred during that
period alter the views he took of the probable
revenue of the country, and certainly he made no addi-
tions to the vote of Parliament beyond those small ones.
On account of the Ordnance Estimates there would be
little or no alteration to be made in the estimate he
formed of the total revenue :mid expenditure of the
year, and we are, therefore,, on the present. occasion,
to devise the means to prolicle for 2,400,0001. which