The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-23 00:00:00

subsisted for many years, might at least have been per- I
mated to go on for another year, without making it
the subject of special comment and accusation.—
(Hear, hear.) Now, that the Honourable Member for
' Southwark (Sir William Molesworth), spoke ably in
avour of a general motion for a grant of money for
education, and he wished to carry that motion for aid to
the Roman Catholics as a part of this grant, I consider
that the framing of any minutes upon this subject re-
quires great care and consideration. Should they be
framed upon the ground of their being entirely Roman
Catholic schools for teaching Roman Catholic doctrines,
and having Roman Catholic inspection, I am sure if
they were so drawn up, a great amount of opposition
would be raised to tile measure. Should they be framed
so as to afford education in the same manner as in the
National Schools for Ireland, and aid granted to these
schools in the same manner as granted to those schools?
I am not quite sure that the Roman Catholic Bishops
of this country would approve of a measure brought
forward in that shape had it been proposed. lam sure
that some Catholics in Ireland, do object to such a
system, and have expressed great dissatisfaction with
the State education provided for the Irish people. I
therefore think, that on those grounds, it was necessary
for us to postpone this question for further consideration,
rather than to adopt a plan which might not have given
setiefection. I agree with the Member for Yorkshire
and others, that we could not regard any measure as
permanent which did not include the Roman Catholics.
This, however, was not proposed to be a permanent
measure. In 1839, we introduced a great alteration,
in the appointment of inspectors to the schools.
The money hi d, up to that time. been
voted by the Treasury, and in consequence of the want
of any surveillance being exercised, a great deal of it
was thrown away. This, however, was remedied by the
change which was then introduced. We now propose to
change the system as regards pupil monitors, and to im-
prove the condition of the schoolmasters, so that we can-
not be supposed to consider this as a permanent or com-
plete system. I trust that, in the end, we may be able
to come to an arrangement by which we shall reconcile
the various differences, and lay the foundation of a per-
manent system.—(llear, hear.) I trust that, seeing the
general, I may almost say the universal, opinion that has
been expressed as to the State providing the means o'
education for the people, we shall be able to bring in a
Bill that will have the support of the country, arid w
bath Houses of Parliament. The opinions, however,
which I have heard expressed, confirms me in the
opinion I entertain as to the propriety of the course the
Government have pursued on the present occasion. Had
we brought in a measure, and asked for a much larger
grant than now proposed, they would have put it out of
the power of the other House of Parliament, when
it came to consider it, to make any change in
the measure. This was the course adopted in the case of
the Maynooth grant. My own opinion is, that the state
of education and of opinion is not sufficiently ripe for
such a proceeding. When, however, the flight Hon.
Gentleman opposite proposed the Bill, I supported bite
on that occasion. Bat those questions cannot he dis-
posed of without consideration. They require delibe-
ration, ripening, and discussion, both in this House ane.
the country before they can be brought to a satisfactore
termination. I remember that with regard to the ques-
tion of the establishment of the Small lathes County
i.,ourts Bill that measure was taken up time aft. r
by successive Governments, and was introduced in 1824
'and 1825 ; it was not till 1846 that it was passed, and it
was only last month it came into actual operation. When
such difficulties, then, accompany the settlement of a
question in which there are no prejudices at work, anti
in which no great variety of opinion eat exist, it is no;
too much to expect that on a question of this nature, it
which men's feelings are so deeply interested, and which
involves such diversity of opinions, that there should b,
some delay in arriving at a satisfactory arrangement. I
think the course we have anopted has tended to bring out
many opinions that will assist in eff:eting this arrange-
ment, and has shown that this House is not unfavour-
able to the extension of education; and with regard to
many points on which condelerable doubt and difficult)
rested, this debate has enabled us to arrive at something
like a clear and satisfactory decision. For instance, with
regard to the proposition of the lion. Gentleman th.
Member for I3ath, that we should provide an education
for the people entirely secular, it is so entirely against
the opinions of this, and we may predict a future Par
liament, that the chance of success trom such a measun
is no longer questionable; and I do not think that the
future Ministers who are to be the successors of the
present Government, and to exceed them in liberality,
are likely to have a long tenure of power, it
schools entirely secular are to be established by
the State.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the
other points, there has been so much unanimity
expressed, and so much support—handsome and
generous support—given to the proposition of the
Government by the Noble Lord the Member
for Liverpool, the Member for Hertford, and others,
that I will only conclude by thanking them and the
House for the reception that has been given to this pro-
posal, and I trust we shall not he disappointed in the
hopes we have formed of it.—(The Noble Lord resumed
his seat amid loud cheers.)
Colonel SIBTHORP said that when he recollected how he
had been deceived by former Governments en questions of re-
ligion, he was cautious in placing much confidence in
any Government. The Noble Lord said this was
not to be a permanent measure—he thought so too. He
thought this was like other measures which had been lately
brought before them, and the experience of the past induced
him to be very careful in assenting to what he could not but
consider as a snare and a trap, to cover some u:terior design.—
Ho (Laughter.) . '
to er eo D apritea oespert f e n
ed, as f taers ..."—(
hLe ay uitt.eor).l?,
could be, but be ceertainly would not agree to any further
grants ; and if the Hon. Member would 4move the repeal of
the Act of 1839, he would cheerfully second the motion.
Sir ROBERT PEEL—Sir, although I feel it wholly un-
necessary to add anything to the argument by which the motion
of the Noble Lord has been supported, yet I should be unwilling
to permit this House to proceed to a division, without shortly
stating the grounds upon which my concurrence will be given
to that motion. Considering the position which for five years
I held in the councils of the Crown—considering the con-
nexion I had with the appropriation of the educational vote,
during that period as a Member of the Committee of the
Council—considering theopposition which the Government has
' had to encounter in proposing the measure, the main outline
and principles of which I cordially approve of, I think on
account of that opposition it is incumbent upon me not •to
shrink from taking my full share in any unpopularity which
may attach to the support of this measure.—( Hear, hear. )
Sir, I am:perfectly willing to admit that there are considerations
connected with this measure which I think are deserving of
mature attention. In 1839, I fully shared in the objections
that were urged to proceeding by a single vote of this
House in reference to a matter of so great importance
as a scheme of general education, imperfect though I admit it
to have been. I still think those assertions were based upon a
sound:foundation, as I consider it would have been a great
advantage to adhere to the ordinary course of submitting to
the deliberate judgment of the House the regulations by which
the education of the people is proposed to be carried out.—
( Hear.) I think it is an evil to exclude the House of Lords
from an opportunity of a full consideration of this subject—
(Cheers)—of leaving to the House no alternative but a com •
plete acquiescence or a peremptory rejection of the measure.—
( Hear.) But, Sir, with my view of the immense importance
of making some progress in the mitigation of the monstrous
evils which attend a neglect of public instruction—(Hear)—
forseeing the probable consequences of insisting on the opinion
which I-gave in 1839 of refusing assent to any measure con-
nected with education, unless it had the Legislative
sanction of both Houses of Parliament in the shape of
an Act of Parliament. I will not now incur the risk of fur-
ther delay, by insisting on the objections which I urged in
1839. I feel that I could not, with propriety now insist upon
those objections. For the six years which have elapsed since
1639, there has not only been an acquiescence on my part,
but an acquiescence on the part of the House, in placing the
control of the grants in the hands of the Privy Cot:med.—
( Hear.) In 1842, when the late Government assumed power,
the vote to the Privy Council did not exceed 30,000/. it was
by the advice of the Crown that that vote was increased to
75,000!. and then to 100,00J1, per annum. We, charged with
the responsibility of the Government, and basing the support of
a great majority of this House, did not think that Parliament
would have acquiesced in 1840 and 1841, after
the debate of 1839, and after a majority of the House
had declared their opinion in favour of tho proceed-
ings by vote, seeing that Parliament thought that arrange,
ment had been made between Government and the heads of the
Church, and that in 1840 and 1811 there was no disposition to
resew the discussion of 1839; I say, considering these things,
' and the increase of the vote, by the advice of the Crown to
Parliament, from 30,0001. to 100,000/. and more, without re-
quiring any alteration in the channel through which it was ad-
ministered, I think I should be utterly unworthy if I now, in
1847, attempted to throw any impediment in the way which
might obstruct the application, and in some respects imperfect
. remedy, for an evil of which we ought to be fully impressed,
by proposing that we should proceed by Bill rather than by a
vote of the House. But has nothing occurred since 1842?
Have we not had an attempt to proceed by Bill with reference
to the education of the people ?—( Hear.) And what was the
result ? When my Right Hon. Friend the late Secretary of
State for the Home Department attempted to introduce a mea-
sure with respect to the education of factory children, and in-
curred the obloquy with which he was assailed—obloquy to
which he exposed himself, because he was actuated by a deep
sense of public duty—he considered that he should mitigate the
opposition that existed by proceeding by a legislative
ose
enact-
ment. lie did not proceed by vote. nor did he p p
Council,
to place any authority in the
to the education of the people, but we met
the Noble Lord in
en-
couragement in respect to that Bill than
of Commons, and
proceeding by a vote of the House
compelled to abandon
We made an attempt to introduce further faweliftihtviienvilyowgirthearteesrpect
my Right Honourable Friend
attempt, because it was made
which, without impolitic con-
cessions,parties desiring some scheme, by
h be given to the education of the
great facilities ;nig7
q seeing the failure of attempting
people. Now then, 4
'the evidence that there is,
the project ; and I regret that_eit wwwaiatshanetcheessvaireywtooafbaunoditoinogthealtl
to proceed by legislation, seeing
with 100,0001., no sufficient, no adequate pro-
visioneven or the education of the people —moral, intel-
lectual, and religious, I am ready to consent to any
tffi
on
rgd s t hsemnCeoll°rCeime OylpfosrCrtuhpol
wcihtbriosut
ita
nvsi,ol violating the conscientio%s scruples
of any class of Christians, a
measure,se
monstrou which,
evils which exist from the want of education.—
(Cheers.) Sir, in the course of this debate, there has been
much able argument with respect to the authority and
duty of the State to interfere with the education of the.people.
of any class of
Sir, in the course of the debate, certainly there has been but faint
denial of that—(Hear,hear .and I should apprehend that on
tic)
vooentrlef
no
education,
eupincnr
taeg,
thiibeos
onn
yot
:thhaasant:
the part of that great ody otTer Majesty's subjects who dissent
from the doctrines of the Established Chnrch, there is no dis-
position to deny the importance of education, or to deny the
eesp
part
sirnbt
that
eoti ttnfsedr
h. pee oar %el
That
aaa.
right and duty of the State to promote that education
the chief objection of the Non-conforming body to this pro-
much a denial of the right of the State to promote education,
iebaeleeddei vntegorpyprorinmno
meteihapoenit
eetsdh(tyel o' sisleparoGro:
as a doubt whether or no the measure proposed is really calcu-
least, if they are consistent with their doctrines on the subject
—( Hear, hear)—only object to it on the ground that the vo-
luntaryany interference on the part of the State. And, Sir, if I could
believe that assumption—if I could believe that non-interference
on the part of the State was calculated to facilitate education
more than such interference, I should at once admit, that in
this country, in which such difference of opinion in religious
subjects prevails-1 should,- I repeat, at once admit that,
whatever r&ght be the right of the Sate, it was not desirable
that any such interference should take place.—( Hear.) But!
think the evidence is conclusive that the voluntaryprieciple has
failed to mitigate the evils which arise from a want of educe-