The Sun.
London, England, 1847-01-23 00:00:00

I-NG, iiANUNIty _23,

that under all the circumstances, the probable claim had
been made out for 9d. or 10d.; but the Chancellor of the
Exchequer of that period had not thought it ad-
visable, from the state of the revenue, to grant
the remission, and he should, be believed, meet the jus-
tice of the case by making the differential duty Is. and
6d. This would give a difference of 6d. to the
foreign prcduce. The House was aware that the
duty was the same in the three countries of
England, Ireland, and Scotland. A favour was
shown to Ireland and Scotland, and rum bore a less
duty in those two part, or the United Kingdom, than
when introduced into England. In England the duty
was 7s. 10d., in Scotland 3s. Bd., and in Ireland, 2s. Bd.
He proposed to equalise the duty.—(Hear. hear.)
A paper had recently been laid before Hon. Members,
which would afford them every information upon the
subject, and if they would just take the trouble to refer
to the 48th page of that paper they would find an account
of the ruin consumed in Scotland. In Scotland the
amount had been reduced from 43,000 gallons to some few
7,000 or 8,000, while in Ireland, from the commencement
of the present century down to the present day the con-
sumption had fallen off from 1,000,000 gallons to only
some 12,000. Ile thought this sufficiently made out
a case for the reductions he was about to propose. Now
he proposed that ruin should be suffered to be imports d
into Scotland at a duty of 4s. 2d., and into Ireland at a
duty of 2s. 2d. ; but he also proposed that some differ-
ence should be made in the duties on spirits dis-
tilled in these countries, and ruin made in England.
His impression was that the effect of these alterations
would he that the consumption of rum would be in-
creased in the sea-port towns. He believed that the in
troduction of a good wholesome spirit would prevent the
manufacture of a spurious article. This introduction of
a sound spirit would benefit both the producer and the
consumer. No doubt grave objections might be urged
against the inequality of the Custom duty as levied in
different parts of the empire. Rum might be, for in- 1
stance bonded in an excise warehouse in Glasgow, and
transmitted to any public warehouse in England by sea,
but only by sea. These regulations he hoped would
prevant smuggling, while at the same time he appre-
hended that the excise revenue would not suffer. On
the whole, he did hope that this would be considered
by the parties interested as a fair settlement of the
question. He did not believe that he should gain or
loose upon the balance of his proposition. 60,0001. was
the amount be calculated he should loose on the reduc-
tion on the price of rum last year ; but the importation
of rum during the last five months so increased that the
duty was more than made up, and therefore he was con•
vinced that the revenue would not be injured by the
measures he had proposed. The price of sugar
had been lower last year than during the preced
ing one, and there was an increased import-
ation of rum, during the thirteen months end-
ing the sth December, 1845, was 655,000 gallons,
and during a similar period, in 1346, it was 789,000 gal-
lons, making an increased consumption of 134,000 gal-
lons. This, of course, made up for the reduction of the
duty on spirit, and he was sanguine enough to believe,
that any further reduction in the price of spirit would
greatly increase the consumption in Scotland and Ire-
land, especially in the seaport towns, the inhabitants
of which were principally in the habit of consuming rum.
But in point of fact the distillation of grain was almost
completely stopped in Ireland. He held in his hand a
letter from an Irish distiller, dated the 14th of January,
which stated that by far the greater portion of barley
which would be used would be foreign. Never-
theless, in the present state of circumstances there
were additional reasons for the passing of these mea-
sures, and he hoped that the House would do so with as
little delay as was consistent with a due consideration
of them. (The Right Hon. Gentleman was almost in-
audible in the gallery, from the commencement to the
end of his speech, so much so as to be repeatedly unin•
telligible.)
Lord G. BEN TINCK said that the great mastery which
his Hen. Friend had displayed over his subject, and the clear
and lucid manner in which he explained it, did not leave it in
the power of any one to say that he could not understand it.
The proposal of her Majesty's Ministers did not meet
with the usual objections which he had so often
stated to the House, namely, against the remission of taxes
paid by foreign produce, in detriment to the British grower.
There was another reason why he had not any great objection
to passing the present measure, as, according to the statement
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, its tendency would be
rather to increase than diminish the revenue. While they had
heard a gloomy statement respecting one branch of the
revenue, and considering the state of Ireland, it was some
consolation to those friends with whom he acted, that those
articles with which political economy or free-trade doctrines
had not meddled, such as tea and tobacco, had yielded an
increased revenue, which, had they trusted to the
duty on the articles allowed by the free-trade tariff,
the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have come before them
a bankrupt.—(Hear, hear.) He (Lord George Bentinck)
had said he was not then prepared to follow the Right Hon.
Gentleman through all his details, and his friends (the Pro-
tectionists) wished more time to consider the measure. His
object, therefore, in rising was to beseech the Right Hon.
Gentleman to pass it as a temporary rather than as a perma-
nent measure. His (Lord George Bentinck's) friends had
every desire to support the Government in every measure re-
garding Ireland, and though they might have some doubts as
to the principle in the propositions for this purpose, they
intended to throw no obstacles whatever in their
way.—(Hear.) He trusted, therefore, that the Noble Lord
(Lord John Russell) would, without prejudicing the policy
which the Government might hereafter think proper to adopt,
consent to pass the measure as a temporary one, and at a later
period of the session, when the affairs of Ireland were settled,
come before the House and propose whatever for a permanent
purpose they might think most advisable. His (Lord George
Bentinck's) Right Hon. Friend, in speaking of the present
high rate of malt, stated that ow! great brewer had suspended
operations. If this were correct the effect of the
high price was to diminish the consumption of
barley, so that he could not see how the tendency
of the present system would be to create a large consumption
of grain for beer which might be used for food.—( Hear, hear.)
The present malt tax was one which did not fall entirely on
the consumer, as had been alleged by the Chancellor of the
Exchequer. It was equally divided —one portion of it was
borne by the consumer, the other by the grower of barley.—
(Hear, hear.) The operation of the measure now proposed
in allowing sugar to enter into competition with barley in
breweries and distilleries, would add one to the many other
claims which the agricultural interest had before the Govern-
ment for the remission of the duty on malt and hops. The Right
lion. Gentleman had told them that the present high price of
malt had added a penny to the price of each pot of beer. If
the Government world take the duty off malt, he (Lord Geo.
Bentinck) was persuaded that not only would beer and ale be
brought back to their old price, but would be sold for a penny
a pot less than that. His reasons for consenting now to the
present measure, were in order that they might, without delay,
con alder other measures relating to Ireland, without
hindrance or obstruction. But he could assure the
Noble Lord opposite, that if be was determined
to make it a permanent measure, at the present time,
he should be obliged to offer it every obstruction in his power.
He, therefore, hoped that the Noble Lord would reconsider the
matter, and consent to the course he had proposed.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN said he had never been more dis-
appointed in any statement. He had hoped to hear how the
proposed measure would increase the supply or food, and dimi-
nish the use of grain in brewing and distilling, but he had
been disappointed. In fact some of his statements would lead
them to infer that the tendency would be rather to increase
than to diminish the use of grain.—( Hear, hear.)
It was clear to him that if mellasses were introduced, the
effect would be to diminish the use of grain, and therefore
a considerable amount of food for the consumption,
ofbatkinee
people lib-
rate
the Rightsasaid
he Hon.h a dG Gentleman I em
sucha rI
ithne ctention..
Molasses c
eo
of
were
flreland
therla
not to but
Exchequer,be introduced, but sugar was, in breweries.
The same applied to distillers ; sugar was to be allowed, but not
P
molasses. The Right Hon. Gentleman, in s e
aking of distil-
leries, further stated, that if malt was less in
price than 545. a
qvuearret,e
trh,
et
rheefroer e
toou
expect
be
ee
t a r
no inedruycemmaetne
material
al to
suuse sugar.f They
the present measure. Such was the appalling
sptpatemly olerrl If the Govei nment had really meant the measure to do some good, they
should have allowed the use of both sugar and molasses in dis-
tilleries and breweries, and prohibited the utiste ofi altoge-
t e statement of
tthheer.RigThhterHe
ewna.s
Goennet
epmo iannt connected
interestwi to those con-
tnheecteendlywmithanlurfiasehtnaffreairast.
pTrehseenptreisnenltremiaenar He
evirould destroy
e appealed to
the Hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Callaghan) if it would not
occasion the total annihilation of spirit_ making—(Hear, hear)
—seeing that it was proposed to reduce the duty on rum from
9s. 4d. to 3s. 2d,, which was the new duty proposed. It was
not his intention to go further into the subject to-night, as he
was not fully prepared to go into the detais • but he could not
remain silent after hearing such a dangerous' statement as had
been made by the Right Hon. Gentleman.—( Hear. )
Mr. CALLAGHAN thought the measure would have the
effect of stopping the use of grain in distilleries generally in
Ireland and Scotland, what would be its effects in Engiaiw
would leave the protectionists and agriculturists to judge. He
would be able, by a few simple arguments, to show that the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had not sufficiently considered the
case. Let them take the article of spirits. The result of the
present arrangement would be, that the difference between the
duty on rum and whisky in Ireland would be only about 6d. a
gallon ; and in Scotland, adding the duty on malt to that on
spirits, the difference would only be lid. or 2d.—(Hear, hear.)
Yet the Government proposed to allow the West
India proprietor to use molasses for distilling,
but would not allow the. English and Scotch distillers. Con-
sidering the vast amount of capital embarked in distilling, he
could not but look on the present measure with dismay, as be
believed it would have the effect of causing all these great
establishments to be abandoned. Entertaining these views, he
had been induced to address the House.
Mr. BAN KES would occupy the House but a short time.
He thought the measure would be introduced only
as a temporary measure, rather than as a permanent
one. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that it
it would have been the intention of the Government under any
circumstances to propose the measure. However that might
be, considering the state of Ireland, he (Me. Bankes) prayed
the Noble Lord at the head of the Government to pass the
measure as a temporary measure. He knew that a strong
feeling existed among the agricultaristsithat the malt-tax should
be repealed. It was only yesterday that a most influential
deputation waited on the Noble Lord praying for a remission of
the duty in question, or at least a portion of the duty;
and the Noble Lord also knows that considering the
state of the country they consented to waive the
matter for the present. Considering, therefore, that these
parties consented to waive their claims, he trusted that the
Noble Lord would also waive his intention of making the mea-
sure a permanent one, and only pass it for a time. No doubt
there was a difference in the present question and one in
which all the advantages went to foreigners : their colonies
would, no doubt, benefit by the measure. Still, in order that
it might be fully and calmly discussed, be hoped the suggestion
of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn would be acceded to.
bOenadthnef
te groundsG e v
ehren
mh aedn
ts twa tnendl, hedb hoped
ave the
no difficulty
Noble
i Lo rd n
acting
tat the
head g he
in
• the manner
mananeeterdtit Hear, hear. )
redebaythefriends with whom he (Mr. Bankes)
Alre.f GrparUliaLmßeOntUbßeNbasdaidt, thakenat
eant the closehimse of the last ses-
sionlf to advise
adrisethntegentlemen who were interested in their West India Col ,nies,
to avoid taking any rash measures, or to throw their estateshe
out of cultivation. But in tendering that advice to them,
saei
rcet hteet
beinp
considerationexposed
commodity,competitionthe against of h
nsta foreignte
had it contemplationitneharetheir
p produce
dt
no e
e bringd.
fma ou rirtwet sea
drwd
eh,
ni he eh the
thoughtG e v
te hr en yin ehadn t a
would
hthem fnaittrelyd to com
Kingdomp e t e
with otherterspreovwic
inheehs,
either
()wt.' inlay the Colonies
particular obligations eloeiesn He
feittherefore, that he
now 'to support the
suggested that there
concessions which the Government proposed to grant to the
colonies. His Hon. Friend near him
were interests in this country who had equally strong claims
upon the Government, and e expressed a desire that the ar-

1847..

, . ...—.—.
rangementa r., - .. ~
Exchequer should be only:"l"Altpikin,She Chancellor' of the
had a fair claim on the country, because in the last reitsion of
Parliament, when their produce was exposed to great ornpe-
tition' there was an implied pledge given that theirl claims
would be conceded. The House must bear in mind thet they
were not now for the first time discussing the question. I They
were now only fulfilling the pledge given by the Right Hon.
Baronet who eat opposite, namely, that the question
should be fully considered next session. With respect
to . the propriety of making this a merely temporary
measure as his Hon. Friend had suggested, he (Mr. Goul-
burn) would wish to know to what period his Hon. Friend
would have it extend ? (Here Mr. Bankes made some re-
mark, which was inaudible in the reporters' gallery.) His
Hon. Friend said that it should be limited to the month of
September next, but his Hon. Friend forgot that this was
not a measure merely brought forward with a view to the
relief of distress in Ireland. It would have been brought
forward had no such distress existed; it was a pure! com-
mercial arrangement, consequent,ipon a
,revious_und tend-
ing, in order to deal justly with a isre 1 34/lithe* Min 12
ht \
subjects..- (Hear, hear.) He Ys' -ePolSk lug l'filtro'
of any commercial knowledge, , s eia leave aNillt
limited to the month of Septe
,yoeuriutP Riftl.,„„,
culated to benefit any class of mellq. ogskftuistrtla e'llto
and certainty were essential elements in 4.. " : ,ti,,tifr Irtn
tions. What inconveniences would not .." .. . =VIM' nev
that they enacted a law for the reduction of .:4!titr" IVY
in order to assimilate them with the duties ono'. or., "
only to reconsider them again in the month cifidriPit
He would ask them what would happen in the oreittest
They would have a great deal of speculation in 11kfts,s1,
mind. Persons would calculate as to whether Goys,
would be strong enough to carry their measures, and to.
would have a great deal of improper speculation, feundeo
on current rumours, and information probably sledge('
to be received from some individual apparently connected
with the Government. He did not believe that I there
was any one who would have the hardihood to embark his ca-
pital in the manufacture of beer, or the importation of} rum.
He could not conceive that any one wonli dare to venture
their capital on the assurance of a law which would last at
farthest only five or six months. He trusted that the Govern-
ment would take an enlarged view of the subject. It was a
question for the House to consider whether the colonies were
or were not entitled to share in the advantages afforded by the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. After the pledge given
during the last session— a pledge induced by the competition
to which their produce was subjected, as against the
produce of other countries—he thought that the istate
ment made by the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite
'had been throughout so clear, comprehensive, and so ably ex-
pressed, that he (Mr. Goulburn) should only weaken the effect
of that statement if he were to attempt to go through the argu-
ments. He agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman, that as
regarded the admission of sugar into the distilleries of
this country, an extravagant view was taken by the
colonies of the benefits to be derived. He entirely concurred
with the view that was taken by the Right Hon. Gentleman,
that they should protect the revenue, not only because that was
essential to the growers of sugar themselves, but to the country
generally. With this opinion, he thought the introduction of
molasses into distilleries and breweries would occasion a loss to
the revenue, which fully juseified the Government in the course
they were pursuing. At the same time, he thought that the
colonies which manufactured it had a stronger claim to the
remission of the duty on another article. The Right • Hon.
Gentleman had just stated that sugar would not generally be
introduced into distilleries unless there should be con-
currently a high price for malt, and a low price for
sugar. He thought that this calculation could not
be overthrown. But experience, also confirmed this
view of the question. Experience had shown that the in-
troduction of sugar had not excluded barley or malt. It was
well known that private brewers employed nearly three-eighths
of all the malt in this country. Private breweries were not
now confined to the houses of gentlemen, but they were con.
ducted by persons who employed large bodies of men, and who I
reserved a portion of their wages in return for this beer sup-
plied to them. These persons found it an object to brew for
the smallest amount, and yet in no instance did he re-
member that sugar had been employed. He re-
collected Mr. Calvert was being examined before a
committee of the House of Commons, and he stated
that it was not admissable to use sugar in distillation.
even if malt was 775. a quarter. He (Mr. Gonlbourn) was
not prepared that evening to enter fully into the question of
the remission of duty on rum, .because he had not expected
that the Right Hon. Gentleman would have brought forward
the subject, be thought rather that he would have confined
himself to the subjects referred to in the Queen's Speech, and
he was not prepared, therefore, with documents to enter into
the particular amounts of differential duties which he proposed
to lay on the produce of the colonies as compared with spirits
distilled in Scotland and Ireland. He was aware that
there was nothing more difficult than to ascertain
what inconveniences one branch of trade might
sustain by the application of certain measures to the other,
and to reduce that inconvenience to a pecuniary value was, of
all other things, the most difficult. He would therefore con.
tent himself with merely giving his assent to the proposal of
the Right Hon. Gentleman on the presealt occasion, and he
would reserve to himself the right of expressing his opinion
more fully when the question was brought before them in an
after stage. Generally, however, he might say that in this
case he fully believed that the Right Hon. Gentleman bad
taken a course which was just as regarded the colonies, and
politic as regarded the interests of this country, because it
fulfilled a pledge given in the last session of Parliament.
Mr. WODEHOUSE begged to remind the Noble Lord
that all these measures had tended to put off to an indefinite
period the consideration of the repeal of the malt .tax, and
therefore the House must be reminded that the situation of
the growers of barley was most materially altered by the mea-
sures of last year. It was impossible to forget the great dif-
ference that was now attempted to be made as regarded the
admission of foreign produce, and Government might be pre-
pared for remonstrances and resistances if a measure of
this kind were to be brought forward, or if they attempted to
extricate themselves from the difficulties of this period by
making this a permanent measure.
Mr. HUME wished to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer
whether he would lay before the House, in an intelligible form,
the reasons which prevented him from giving the public a
great boon by the admission of molasses? It appeared at all
events, that the remission of duty on sugar would be inefficient
to reduce the cost of brewing, and that the only article which
would have that effect would be molasses, and that was shut
up. He (Mr. Hume) desired to have some reasons shown,
why they should not get rid of the Excise altogether, if they
sSood in the way of a good to the people. Let the Right Hon.
Gentleman give them something in a tangible form to con-
sider, and they would then be enabled to say whether his
reasons did cr did not justify him in the course he was pursuing
Mr. FINCH said that the gentlemen of the county he be-
longed to, and he believed English gentlemen generally, were
incapable of forming a sound judgment on this question, and
he considered it was rather taking the House by surprise to
bring forward this question, and to ask Hon. Members to con-
firm this measure, before giving them an opportunity of form-
ing an opinion upon it. If this were the case with English
llembers, it was even more difficult for Irish and Scotch Mem-
bers to agree to a measure classing the duties on rum with the
duties on British spirits, when they were not aware that the sub-
ject was to be brought forward that evening with respect to
the colonial interest, he felt that they ought to be promoted in
any way. He felt that those interests had been shamefully
sacrificed. He felt that no part of the British dominions was
so negleeted as the colonies. But it struck him that this was
no question merely of the English colonies, for it interested all
foreign countries and colonies. He had read, not long before,
in a paper, of the arrival of three ships with Brazilian sugar,
and it stated that further arrivals were expected, and the
article concluded by expressing a hope that Brazilian sugar
would be extensively used in the distilleries. He would not
say
that the agriculturalists of this country intended to oppose the
measure. All he said was, that they ought to have had some
time to consider it.
Mr. D. BARCLAY said that he would not dwell on that
part of the question which related to the distress in Ireland.
He deeply sympathised in that distress, but his object
in rising was rather on behalf of the colonies. A
pledge had been given by the Right Hon. Gentleman
at the close of the last session of Parliament, and
it was but just that that promise should be redeemed.
He did think that Parliament, at the conclusion of last session,
_had given a pledge that when the protection upon the produce
of the West Indian Colonies was abolished, and the protection
which they had hitherto enjoyed was also withdrawn, that no
restriction should be placed on their commerce with this
country. He thought that this was simply a mere matter of
right and justice, and one which ought not to enter into any
political consideration. The imposition of a duty on sugar in
Jamaica, was just the same thing as the levying of a duty in
England. What would the Noble Lord opposite say if it were
to be seriously
just nor right that the restriction on the com-
merce of the West Indies should remain when the protection
on their produce was removed. His Right Hon. Friend only
opposed the measure because it was to be only of temporary
effect, but he thought that the colonies ought not to be thus
subjected to such a capricious system of legislation. Their
great distance from the mother country will prevent the mea-
sure, if it were of a temporary character only, from being of
any use to the colonies; and he did not see why it should be
limited to the first of September, He did hope that the dis-
tress in Ireland would not prevent the Noble Lord from doing
justice to the West Indian colonies.
Lord G. BENTINCK said the Right Hon. Gentleman
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer), in the introduction of these
measures, bad expressly stated that the :ground tor entering
upon tnem was the distress that pervaded Ireland, and when he
and the friends who acted with him, had agreed to assent to
their passing, it was agreed, that his Noble Friend at the head
of the Government should first settle the affairs of Ireland.—
(Laughter.) He bad understood from the proposition of his
Noble Friend that this was to be the foundation of
their present proceedings, and he trusted that this dis-
cussion respecting the potato crop would not cause
the calamity that had befallen Ireland to be forgotten ;
but that the introduction of sugar into breweries and distilleries
would not prevent the case of Ireland from being fully con-
sidered. From the speech of the Hon. Member for Cork, he
was lead to believe that this measure of the admission of sugar
into distilleaies, is not to be taken simply as a remedial measure
for Ireland. His Right Hon. Friend had, in some respects,
misrepresented, though most unintentionally, he was certain,
the observations of his Friend behind him ; and when his Noble
Friend, at the head of the Treasury, made his statement on
Monday next, respecting the affairs of Ireland, he trusted that
the circumstances would be made fully apparent, and the mode
of relief that he intended to adopt. He could assure
the Gentleman who had just sat down, that the
Members on his side of the House were as deeply
interested in the conservation of the colonies as he was himself.
He begged to assure him that he and his friends acted in no
spirit el hostility to the West Indian interests. Did his Right
Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, remember the
evidence of Mr. Calvert, the brewer, before a Committee of
that House? If he did, he should also recollect that since
that time, that the cost of malt had risen from 75g. to Sit:
whereas the duty on sugar had been reduced from 275.
per cwt. ; and the duty on slave grown sugars had bee to
reduced
h
from 635. to 21s. The Hon. Gentleman asked ow he would
like to have a tax imposed on corn; why, there was a tax of
4,500,0001. on agricultural produce.—(Hear.) Why, was not
malt a portion of agricultural produce? And what would the
Hon. Member for Manchesser, who had formerly been a
Member. for a county have thought if it had been at that
time proposed to levy a tax on agricultural produce ? and how
would be have conceded that which affected prices? When
he asked this question, it should be recollected that, in fact, the
introduction of sugar into breweries was neither more nor less
than to occasion barley to be displaced. He thought it would
have been better to have reduced the price of spirits. He found
from the returns, that since the year 1823 the maximum of the
consumption of spirits had been doubled.
Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to interpose, and to re-
mind the Noble Lord of the increase of the populati
Lord G. BENTINCK continued.—Why, the coonns.umption
had increased from 13,000,000 to 26,0006'00
al lons a year,
and if any Gentleman would only walk down Oxford-street or
Holborn, and view the number of the gin palaces which were
to be found there, he would 'ite agree with him that the re-
duction of the duty had doubled the consumption. Now what
was the case with regard to the consumption of beer ?It had
not increased 25 per cent., although the population bad in-
creased far more than that. And that evidently showed that
the consumption of spirits had increased at a greater
ratio than the consumption of beer. His Right
Honourable Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer
seemed to desire that rum hould take the place of
native spirit in Scotland. He hardly expected that re-