The Sun.
London, England, 1847-01-28 00:00:00

The Loan CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool-
sack at Five o'clock.
POSTAL ARRANGEMENTS, &e.
Lard CLARENDON laid on the table of the House
papers relative to the postal convention la tween Great
Britain and Prussia, France, and Denmark; an account
of the fees received in the offices of the Second Rem( ru-
brancer of Ireland ; an account of the supplies remain-
ing in the Mint ; and a report from the Commissioaers
of the Public Works in Ireland.
Lord BROUGHAM said that the papers laid upon
the table, more especially those relating to the foreign
postal arrangements, were of the highest importance,
but there was one objection to which he wished to
call the attention of the Noble Lord, as respected Ita'y.
The Noble Lord was aware that it was not necessary to
prepay in this country letters addressed to France, Bel-
ilium, or Holland; neither was it necessary ibat indivi-
duals in those' countries should prepay letters addressed
to Great Britain ; but the same law unfortunately did
not apply to Italy, and he (Lord Brougham) was in the
habit of receiving large packets of letters, fre-
quently of the most worthless character, which,
as they were almost invariably marked " private,"
he took in and paid for. He paid four shillings
on one morning for a long account of some individual's
experiments in galvanism—(Laughter)—and the only
revenge he had was doing up the communication in
stout brown paper, and addressing it to
.the party who
originally sent it.—(Laughter.)
THE LAW OF SETTLEMENT.
Lord BROUGHAM. presented a petition, signed by
the mayor, several justices, five aldermen, the incumbent
and other clergymen of East Loce, and two bun-
(
dred of the most respectable inhabitants, praying
for an alteration in the law of settlement. Seeing
his Noble Friend in his place, he merely threw
out those suggestions. He had spoken of the simile,
tut he (Lord Brougham) always understood that it was
essential to a simile that there should be a likeness, and
when there was an unlikeness, he did not consider that
in the figure it could with propriety be called a simile. It
was very unjust for his Noble Friend to make the remark
that he had done, for the whole residuum had been left
by him (Lord Brougham). They were no doubt most
friendly to the poor-law for Ireland, but they
should recollect, in the consideration of this
question that it would be shortly brought before
the public, or at least that the conduct of those
who voted for the measure would be submitted
to the public ; for the general elections were at hand.
There were 23,000 or 33,000 paupers from Ireland who
were thrown upon this country. A certain celebrated
personage had denied the statement that had been made
about him as to what would be imputed to him, of
stating that the money which had been granted t o
relieve the distress in Ireland had been contributed
for the purpose of making proselytes to Protestantism.
But what did he find? A Reverend Clevgyman stated
in a letter that this would be the most opportune time
to furnish a fund of 20,0001. for the purpose of convert-
ing Catholics to Protestantism. A correspond-
ent of his Noble Friend Lord Robert Grosvenor bad
stated that the great distress in Ireland was
only a just visitation for having acceded to the Maynooth
grant, Mr. Addison, in his able papers in the
"Spectator," passes a very severe censure upon those
who deliver judgments upon their fellow men.
He thought it had always been said that the ways of the
Almighty were inscrutable, and yet here were
these men coming forward and declaring that they
had examined into the matter, and it was
pretty clear, indeed there could 'be no doubt of it, that
the famine was a punishment for the passing of the
Maynooth grant. It was going upon the principle of a
certain friend of his who ,wrote a book to prove that
the battle of Ireland was the result of the abolition of
the slave trade.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM was exceedingly glad that
he had given the Noble and Learned Lord
an opportunity Hof statingliwhat he had dune.
He thought some official information ought to be
affordtd them on the subject. He only wanted
to say one other word about this judgment question.
It was most extraordinary that these gentlemen
who were so confident upon the matter, did not perceive
that it was not the Protestant Parliament of England
that was suffering from the visitation. In point of fact
the. evil had fallen upon the individuals in whose behalf
they became sinners, ao that the sinners themselves had
escaped.—(Hear, hear.)
The subject then dropped.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition
from the relief committee of Cork, praying Govern-
ment to adopt measures for the speedy importation of
corn into Ireland.
THE LAW OF SETTLEMENT.
Lord WALSINGUAM presented a petition from
Norfolk against the present law of settlement.
Earl FITZWILLIAM said the Noble Lord (Lord
Walsingham) was probably aware that a great move-
ment was commenced in Norwich in favour of what was
called a national rate, that was in fact to take the
maintenance of the poor from under the local rate, and
throw it on the consolidated fund. Now of all the
schemes which were likely to be mischievous to the
poor, this, of throwing their maintenance on a national
rate, was of all others the very worst—(Hear, hear)—
for under it there would be an end of all the indepen-
dence of the lower classes themselves. He would be
hound to say, that the moment the local board had the
management cf the Consolidated Poor Fund in their

power, a scene of wasteful extravagance would ensue
which would have no parallel.

Lord WALSINGIIII3I said that he entirely agreed
Kith the prayer of the petitioners, on the mischiefs

which arose under the p;esent poor-law distribution ;
for the interest which the rate-payers had in keeping
down the pour rate operated greatly agajnst the poor
man in his desire to gain employment. lie was sorry
that uc present thero were no inducements held out for
industry or good conduct.

IRELAND.
'The Marquis of LANSDOW.NE laid on the table of
the Howe all the correspor.derce which had taken place
with the Commissariat and tho Board of Works relative
to the distress which at present existed there.
MILBANK. PRISON.
The lioaLL MAit4tas also laid on the table the re-
port of the Commissioners who were appointed to inquire
into tae management of the Milbank prison, with copies
of the evidence taken before them.
Tho Rouse then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
The SPEAKER tOUlt the Chair at Pour o'eloac.
Mesavngers brought up papers fro
House, from the Commissioner m the Trinity
Commissioners of the Itletropelittta

Mr. FINCH said he would on an early day ask a
question of the Noble Lord the Secretary of Foreign
Affairs with respect to the correspondence which had
taken place between the Governments of England and
Spainirespecting the Montpensier Marriage.
MINISTERIAL MEASURES (IRELAND).
Mr. ROEBUCK said that he would move upon an
early day,:as additions to the plan announced by her
Majesty's Ministers for relieving the existing distress
in Ireland—first, an appropriation of the revenues of the
Irish Church for the purposes of a more general and
extended education ; secondly, to extend the income
and property-tax to Ireland; thirdly, to alter
the Poor Removal Act in such a manner as to
allow different parishes of England to send back to
their own parishes all Irish paupers at the expense of
the several parishes to which they belonged.
POOR-LAW (IRELA2,II)).
Mr. WILLIAMS gave notice that he would move
that the second reading of the Poor-law (Ireland) Bill,
and also the %hole of its other stages, should take
precedence of all other measures under the considera-
tion of the House.
Lord G. BENTINCK gave notice that he should ask
fcr leave to bring in a Bill stimulate the profitable etn-
ployment of the poet. in Ireland, by the encouragement
of the construction of Irish railways.
OCCUPATION OF CRACOW.
Mr. HUME gave notice of his intention to move for a
copy of the notice or presentation made by the Russian
Envoy, dated the 10th of January, to the Court of
Switzerland, with respect to the federal contract of
Vienna, relative to the annexation of Cracow.
DISTRESS IN IRELAND.
Mr. ROEBUCK said he should take that opportunity
of asking a question, of which be had already given
notice, of the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government. He assumed that the Noble Lord, in all
the schemes for the relief of distress in Irelan I, must
have made some calculation—he did not mean to say a
very niee one—as to the probable amount of money re-
quired for that purpose ; and if the Noble Lord had
made that calculation as to the probable amount, he
must have fully entertained in his own mind seine pro-
position, assisted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
with reference to the means of raising the sums which he
required for that purpose.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL, in answer to the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, stated that up to the Ist January
the amount of money issued from the Exchequer was
one million. There had been at that moment an
additional million, so that altogether the amount
issued up to the present moment was two millions,
which would be expended under the Labour-rate Act.
With regard to the commissariat department, it was im-
possible yet to make anything like an accurate estimate.
Under the existing Act, however, if the expenditure
went on in the same ratio as at present, the out-
lay under the Labour-rate Act would not be
less than from 500,0001. to 600,0001. a month,
which up to August next might be calculated, in round
numbers, at seven millions. By the plan which the Go
vernment proposed to introduce, he apprehended that a
considerable reduction would take place in the expen-
diture under the existing Act—how much he
was not in a position to say. With regard to
the financial plan, he thought it was better to
reserve what he had to say on that point for a
Separate financial statement : whether that statement
should be made before the ordinary time or not he could
not then say, but ample time would be given to the Hon.
Gentleman.
Mr. ROEBUCK did not think that the Noble Lord
had given a clear answer to his question. He put it
with a view to ascertain the cost of all the plans, as he
was desirous to know the probable expenditure of the
whole plan.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—The Hon. Gentleman's
question referred only to the present expenses which
were incurred in Ireland, and, he believed, asked
what would be the probable expense of the improve-
ments made in that country. With the Honourable
Gentleman, he regretted that there had not been the
same advantage obtained from the employ-
ment of the money voted last session, bet he
should recollect that the sum of 1,000,0001. was voted
under what was called the Drainage Act, and it was not
wise to complain of the provisions of that Act. But
with respect to the construction of that Act, he might
reply that it was not intended to alter either the time,
or the amount of interest, or the period at which the
principal was to be paid up, so that the provisions of the
Drainage Act remained unaltered.
PUBLIC WORKS IN IRELAND.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN wished to ask the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet at the Head of the Home Department, whether it
was intended to alter the system pursued in the employ-
ment. of labourers in the public works of Ireland?
Sir (}.,GREY said that there were, doubtless, many
abuses, but, from the nature of the circumstances, it
would be impos.,ible to prevent them ; as soon as pos-
sible a more strict supervision would be exercised, and
the system should be altered.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN—Was there any statement of the
money expended on the public works ?
Sir GEORGE GREY—The Hon. Member will find
them in the Treasury minutes.
IRISH PAUPERS AND LUNATICS.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN moved for a return of the
number of paupers admitted into each workhouse in
Ireland during the year 18-16 ; number discharged
during same period ; number died during same period ;
number in house ou each Saturday since the Ist day of
November, 1846, showing the number which each
workhouse was originaly constructed to receive ;
number ill of fever, of scarlatina, of dysentery,
or of contagious diseases, on each Saturday, shvvving
the number e Melt the sick ward or hospital
attached to each workhouse was originally constructed
to receive; number who died during each week since the
Ist day of November, 1846, distinguishing such as died
of contagious diseases in each workhouse, or in any
hospital or ward attached to such workhouse; number of
paupers affected with fever, or other febrile contagious
diseases, transferred to any hospital under the fifteenth
clause of the Poor-law Amendment Act of 1843;
number of lunatics transferred to any lunatic asylum from
each workhouse during the years 1844, 1845, and 1846;
copies of all communications made by the Poor-law
Commissioners to boards of guardians on the sanatory
state of the workhouses; of any communications made
by boards of guardians to the Poor-law Commissioners,
or of minutes of proceedings of such boards, respe can; the prevalence of disease in workhouses; of any imitruc-
tions given by the Poor-law Commissioners to any phy-
sicians or surgeons, to inquire into the nature and ex-
tent of disease in any workhouse, and into the cat .se of
such disease, together with the reports of such vhysi.
clans or surgeons thereupon.
THE QUEEN'S LETTER.
Mr. HAMILTON wished to know from the -Right
Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of State for the :Home
Department, whether the funds, which might IN, col-
lected in the different churches, through the queen's
letter, would be administered to the starving poor of
Ireland, through) the Commissioners who had bee :n ap-
pointed, or whether they would be dispensed by the
clergy of the Established Church of It eland ?
Sir G. GREY said it was the intention of thu Go-
vernment that the funds so collected should be plaued at
the disposal of the committee recently established in
London for affording relief to the destitute poor in
Ireland and Scotland, the members of which bore a
high character, which was a sufficient guarantee that
the funds would be properly applied. Many of them
were clergymen and members of the relief and local

committees, and as they actin concert with the Govern-
ment, those who contributed to the fund would have the
satisfaction of knowing that the relief would be properly
dispensed.

TREATY OF VIENNA.
Mr. HUME begged to ask whether the Noble Lord
had any objections to lay upon the table of the House a
copy of the convention that was entered into by the
Three Powers in 1834, which especially confirmed the
terms of the treaty of Vienna.
Lord PALMERSTON was not quite prepared on the
part of the Government, to give an answer to the
question.
Mr. HUME.—Some such power had by that conven-
tion to take possion of Cracow by the Three Powers.
Lord PALMERSTON should have no objection to
give to the House all the information he possessed.
Mr. MONCKTON MILNES said, that at the same
time, perhaps, the Noble Lord would have no objection
to present to the House any papers that related to the
non-appointment of consuls at Cracow.
Lord PALMERSTON said that he had previously
stated to the House that it was inexpedient for the
public service to answer this question ; and the same
obstacles remain at the present moment, in consequence
of the relation to this country of the three Powers to
whom allusion had been made.
NATAL ARCHITECTURE.
Lord INQrESTRE wished to ask whether there was
any objection to lay on the table of the House any papers
that had been communicated with regard to the Com-
mittee of Naval Architecture? He also wished to ask
whether any report of the Committee of Reference had
been made to the Admiralty, and if so, whether there was
any
yobj eetiontolay that report on the table ? It would
be recollected that there were three members of that
Board, and that two of them had been promoted ; he
wished also to ask whether, in the event of the ship
constructed by that board
.turning out successful, it was
him,
yet
t. reply,
been
night by his Hon, Friend the Member for
intended to promote the third member, as they had pro-
moted the other two members. of that board.
Mr. WARD said a Tiller question was put to him
that the naval
brought be-
Mthoentortohseer(Mr. Hume), who wished to move for returns
to state
. *at they would be very
fore the attention of the Admiralty, but he was
and also that there would be no
satisfactory,
reports
o the
rts subject,
in
ci u e andio rhe a
h taodl d
not
objection to lay them on the table of the House. All
that had been received respecting the Thetis
the reports
had been most satisfactory, as they were to the effect
that that ship would justify the expectations entertained
had much pleasure to inform the Noble
of her. He
in a position
Lord that the Admiralty, without waiting for a confirma-
tion of this report, had removed Mr. Chadwick from
Devonport to
the effice of master-shipwright at Wool-
wich.

FOR
seleßdEf,L,rAlNre
inquiredwttst
he whatin t
e stepsntiGovernment()itihoeffGndvernm eGovernment
thad
seed to those persons for
a kl‘Mel nrr.. to
TLo U.tolbil3TaoiSaCE I IsE:EtDPOPRIsFE:
pepoluyl d only
tion made the other evening by the First Lord of the
Treasury that it ,
afford every facility
whom it was intended, orders bad been given to up-
wards of 200 persons to furnish the necessary supply.
With respect to the 50,000 L, he could only say that it
was found insufficient; that it was competent for Par-
liament to make an additional grant.
CONDITION OF CONVICTS IN. THE HULKS
AT WOOLWICH. i
Mr. DUNCOMBE then rose ,to move for the appoint-
ment of a Select Committee to inquire into the condition
of convicts in the hulks at Woolwich. He said he had
beenovegriiivine
enntt to
ou nedoenrssetnatn dtothe that
appointmen of the Corn-
it was the intention of the
G
mittee. If he was correct in this assumption,
he would be saved from making painful state-
ments, and the House from hearing facts which
s t a
they could not fail to consider both distressing and dis-
gusting. He thought that the proper time to enter into
the question of prison discipline ; but, however, be
should confine himself this evening to a narration of
the cruelties of which he had to complain. Ile
thought those cruelties were of a nature to demand
such an inquiry as the one he sought. It might; be
hownece necessary tope informrsons f 0
found
h ee t
iHouse,
r
wa
report of Mr. Capper for 1845, together with the sur-
geon's report thereon, had been furnished to the House.
He stated that the prisoners from such depots as
},li to the
ee
fihr ustlkis. Thene
a
Woolwich and Portsmouth were in a bad and unhealthy
state, and unfit, from age and infirmities, till sent abroad.
The hulks at Woolwich were established for what was
called "invalid prisoners," and he wished to call the
attention of the House to the medical neglect and cruel
treatment inflicted upon those prisoners. He was satis-
fied that all the reports which bad been issued upon that
subject were true, both as regarded the treatment of the
prisoners while living, and after death. This conduct
was disgraceful to a couLtry calling
itself anything like a
civilised and Christian country. In the returns to
which he had alluded, it was stated by the person
making that return, that the mortality on board
the hulks in 1845
was only eleven persons. This
mortality wa% contrasted in a report with tue amount of
mortality in the prisons of France, Philadelphia, and of
Millbani Penitentiary. This morning, however, a re-
turn, for which he had moved some time since, was
laid upon the table of that House, which would serve to
show the House the fraudulent manner in which these
Returns were sometimes got up. The return for which
Ile had moved was a return of the number of persons
who died on board the hulks from the Millbank
prison alone, being
aed alone.
under
with
it h
Act
The q and instead of the number being
eleven, as stated in the former report, the
number of deaths on board the two hulks, the
Justitia and the Warrior was twenty-eight from Mil.
b
made annual
what?
was
the cause of this increased mortality on board the hulks
as
otherof ru aeprisonsthen
n:arose,
onw hthe
country
In all their prisons there were visiting magistrates and
inspectorsa n l prisonpr
reports, and went round and asked if any of the pri-