The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-25 00:00:00

The Noble Lord was difficult to please—(.Heer, hoar)
—and so the franchise of the Irish people was to be
frittered away, and when any Bill to improve the present
system was introduced it met with unqualified
opposition. Ho should give his vote against the second
reading of the Bill before the House, and should give
the Bill of the Noble Lord opposite ( Lord Stanley) his
decided opposition. It had ben sail, those matters that
were complained of in the Noble Lord's Bill might he al-
tered in Committee. That would be a very good argu-
ment if the principle of the Bill could be tolerated, but
when the Bill would disfranchise the entire community, as
he (Sir W. Somerville) thought, was he not justified in
offering every opposition to the Bill in his power, rather
than place such mighty interests in jeopardy. It was
right that the House should have a sense of the magni-
tude of the int :Tests now at stake. If the Noble Lord's
Bill passed--and it was right the truth should be ton—
ic wrs right the Government should know the truth, and
it was right the Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir R.
Peal) should know the truth—if the Noble Lord's Bill
passed, they must be prepared to govern I eland by other
means and with another weapon than that of public opi.
nion.—ll was his firm belief that if the House passed that
8.11 all attempt at conciliation in Ireland by means of
public opinion would fail. He should oppose the
Bill, because he did not wish to see such a
state of things existing—(Hear)—and because he
was attached to the [Mon that existed bit veen the
two countries, as long as it could be maintained benefic.-
ally for both. —( Hear, 'lsar, from the Repealers.) He
had not been afraid to express that opinion,—he had ad-
hered to it through good report and through evil report,
because he thought that:the Union, if maintained upon a
basis of equality, would tend to the advantage of both.
It was his wish to see the experiment which the Go-
vernment was now making successful, and to be a witness
of the progressive improvement of Ireland in conjunction
the improvement that the union of the two coun-
tries was calculated to confer on both, and not to reit on
any weapon except public opinion. Therefore it was than
not offering any factious opposition to the Bill of the
Noble Lord opposite, lie felt bound to resist it--he must
therefore continuo to give it his most strenuous opposition,
and lit was convinced that the best way of doing so was to
support, independently of the merits of the Bill itself, the
Bill of the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland. He
could not conceal from Lim self that the rejection of that
Bill was tantamount to the adoption of that of the Noble
Lord.—( Cheers.)
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON was glad to observe that the
speech of t':c Hon. Baronet who had just sat down was
characterized by the same spirit of moderation which had
characterized the whale debate, and he was gratified to
find that a debate of such importance was likely to he con-
ducted with such temper. The Hon. Baronet had
fol-
lowed in the footsteps of tho Hon. Secretary of War, who,
in the debate of last evening, had entered rather into the
merits of the Bill of the Noble Lord the Member for North
Lancashire, than into that of the Noble Secretary for Ire-
land. Both those gentlemen had assailed the Bill of the
Noble Lord because it gave a double appeal. They had
however forgotten that the law at present gave the appeal
one way, and the alteration introduced by the Noble Lord,
giving it both ways, was, he considered, rather an improve-
ment than otherwise. But the Bill of the Noble Secre-
tary for Ireland professed to give the appeal both ways on
matters of law, and therefore it was equally amenable to the
criticisms of the Secretary of War and of the Hon. Baronet.
The Right Hon. Baron, t s: id the present was a Bill de-
fining the franchise. He denied that; it recited that doubts
existed, and instead of removing those doubts, and declar-
ing the law, it displaced tha existing franchise altoge-
ther, and adopted a new one entirely subversive of the
Reform Bill. The lion. Baronet was likewise mistaken
when he represented that his Noble Friend was opposed
to any principle of rating. His Noble Friend objected to
no such thing, and he believed that there were many gen-
tlemen on that side of the House who thought it would be
an excellent thing to adopt the test of rating. He for one
should be delighted to try that standard. The Hon. Ba-
ronet had fallen into another error—be had stated that the
Noble Lord was inconsistent with himself, that he dis-
franchised the 40.. freeholders because they were depen-
dent on their landlords, and he refused to enfranchise these
51. raters because they would be independent of their
landlords. Now the very reverse was the fact.
The class of electors now proposed to be created would be
more objectionable infinitely than the 405. freehrldera.—
( Hear, hear.) He was greatly surprised last eight that
the Right Hon. Gentleman who closed the debate should
have chosen to follow the powerful, argumentative, and
conclusive speech of the Hon. and Learned Member for
Exeter, with such a frothy piece of declamation, which had
no sense nor argument.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Macaulay) was ho
( Mr. Jackson) believed a
.member of the legal profes-
sion. But in his speech of last night he showed an
entire ignorance of law.—( Hear, and a laugh.) The
Right Honourable Gentleman said that there eught
to be no re-investigation of the franchise, when once de-
cide-1, because no re-investigation of a case once decided
in a Court of Jusfcc was allowed. In feet, nothing was
mere frequent than re-investigation of a case in which new
evidence was di covered. New trials were constantly
granted where a verdict had been obtained by surprise or
by perjury. In cases of real proptrev, ejections were
issued again and again, after judgment had been given a
dozen times in favour of the person in pos-eeien.
Mr. O'CONNE LL made some observation which was
not heard in the g,al:ery, but excited some laughter and
miss of " Order."
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON would be glad to be cor-
rected by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman when he rose
in his place. The effe,t of the al. franohine on the coun-
ties would be to substiaite a pauper qualification for the
property qualification which was created by the Reform Bill.
lie said that the proposed system was a direct contraven-
tion of the Reform Act, by subvei ting the existing quali-
fication—net defining it—and substituting a lower one
in its place. He would not object to adopting the Poor-
] VA' valuation, provided it were required that tie claimant
should have a 10/. interest in his holding over and above
the rent. The MB then lefore the [louse appeared to
hove been originally two Billa. It contained two :cts of
clauses; the one relating to the registry and the other to
tie franchise. The first eighteen clauses referred t o the
former subject, and he found that that portion was printed
differently from the latter part, in which the type was
larger, and was leaded, so that it was spread over mice
as much space as that which preceded. His impression,
therefore, was, th it the Bill was not that which it was at
fiat intended should be introduced; and perhaps the
Noble Lord, looking to the result of recent elections, and
to the dissensions among his own fullowera, had ih eight
proper to alter the measure, in order to satisfy the more
violent of his party.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He (Mr.
Sergeant Jackson) would, however, venture to say that
Ministers could never expect the Bill to be passed into
a law ; and he believed they would not ask the House to
go into Committ 43 emit either next neck or the week after,
and probably not until after Easter. The Bill was a mere
make-belie'', and was supported on the second reading by
many lion. Gentlemen opposite, who would not vote for
the 51. qualification. The Noble Lord in introducing the
Bill, had admitted that an annual revision, and a double
appeal, as well as the abolition of certifica'ese were de-
sirable; and yet his Noble Friend (Lord Stanley) because
he had introduced similar provisions in his Bill of 13st
year, had become the object of unmeasured situperation,
having been called a "scorpion," and a thousand other
name,. The supporters of this Government Bill were at
vasiauce with themselves. The Hoe. Secretary at War
had sai I that, the 5/. clau-e was the very essence of the
Bill. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Attorney-Gene-
ral for Ireland, said that it was a mere question of amount
—that the 5/. was printed in italics. That statement was
perfectly true. But wore the words " that any person
who should be in the actual occupation of such property
should be entitled to he registered," were those words:printed
in italics? Instead of being intended for the consideration
of the Committee, they were in fact made the very essence
of the Bill. The Noble Lord hal stated most distinctly
that Le would not have introduced the Bill, however be-
neficial it might be in other respects, un'ess it contained
that principle. He thought that every Hon. Member of
that House who was attached to the monarchical institu-
tion of this country, as opposed to the democratic prin-
ciples which were abroad, was called upon to resist the
innovation, and to vote against the second reading of this
Bill. English gentlemen were as much interested in this
measure as Irish, It was not exclusively an Irish q
ees-
tion which they were then called upon to consider and to
settle. Would any one imagine that if the Ball were in-
troduced in Ireland, the principle would stop there, and
not be introduced into England? There would imme-
diately be an exclamation on the part of the English and
Scotch, that they were not upon the same footing as the
Irish. It was extremely important in the discussion of this
question to look to the opinions which had bean expressed
in the discussion on the Reform Bill. On referring to
that discussion, he found Lord Durham stating and rejoic-
ing in the consideration, that only one-third of the voters
in this country would have so low a qualification as 10/. ;
he found Lord Lansdowne stating, that in towns there
would be more 15/. than 10/. householders. He found
Lord Grey, and the Noble Lord the Secretary for the
Colonies, speaking of the Reform Bill as a resting place
for the Constitution, so that it would not be again dis-
turbed by revolutions. Was it not then a monstrous thing
for her Majesty's Government, in the straits in which they
felt themselves, to propose an alteration of that settlement?
If such a change should be made under any circumstances,
the necessity for it should be clearly made out. What was
the case made here? It was said that the constituencies
of Ireland were considerably reduced. The returns laid
upon the table proved no such thing; they proved that the
constituencies both of the towns and counties in Ireland had
considerably increased since the passing of the Reform Bill.
He had returns from the Queen's county, and according
to them, in December 1832, there were on the register
1,494 voters, and in December, 1840, that was after ;the
expiration of toe eight years, the constituency was 1,559;
that was, therefore, an increase of nearly 100, and such
was the actual strength of the constituency at that mo-
ment. He had also returns from other places—from Kil-
dare, and there the constituency, in 1832, was 1,121,
while in 1840 it was 1,961 ; there was, therefore, an in-
crease of between 800 and 900 in that small country. In
Wicklow, in 1832, the number was 1,520, and in 1840
1,468 ; that was a falling off, but that was to be accounted
leases ; but there was also an indisposition on the part of
the by the landlords of Ireland being indisposed to grant
the tenants to take them, because they did not like to
place themselves between two fires—because,voted against the priests he rendered himselfobn
oxifiouas,manade
if hee votedT o againsttu rns beforelandlordthetbeH
ohuesoinshcouwrrecdd
ohliasrgdoirspl
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con-
stituency than really existed, because it included the names of
. re
many that were dead. It was not enough to say the con-
stituency was reduced,—it must be shown that it was re-
duced in such a manner as not to give fair representation,
before they could call upon the House to repeal the Re-
form Bill, which was the effect of the present Bill. He
agreed with the observations of the Noble Lord the Se-
cretary for Ireland, that the country could not stand suc-
cessive revolutions. The 5/ ratieg constituency would
be infinitely worse than the old 40s. freeholders, and
what had been the evils of the system of the 40e. free-
holders ? Why, the landlords for the purpose of cant-
ing riots, had divided the land into the most minute per.