The Sun.
London, England, 1847-06-11 00:00:00

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tained all the diploma.te core. spondence.
SAALL DEBTS (IRELAND) BILValr aSs'AtiThP
Mr. M. MILNES asked the Solicitor-General for Ire-
land whether he intethled introducing a Bill to mitigate
the present practice of imprisoning for small debts in
Ireland?
The SOLICITOR GENERAL for Ireland said the
subject was under consideration, and he was in hope*
of being able to introduce a Bill this session on this
subject.
TREATMENT OF A CONVICT IN BERBICE.
Mr. G. BERKELY said that he wished to call the
attention of his Hon. Friend the Secretary for the Colo-
nies to a circumstance connected with a convict named
Panco. It was stated that he was desirous of obtaining
the rite of baptiem, which a Roman Catholic priest was
prepared to administer, but which the authorities would
not permit him to do.
Mr- HAWES said, that wh, ii his Ilan, and Gallant
Friend trought this subj. et before the li-tig, on a for-
mer oceasion, lie st,ti,d ht:t he cc old itstitute inquiries
on the subject. Those iiiqulries had b c., read-•° and it
appeared that the convict
.was attended by a Roman
Citholic Priest on the marnaii, of ies execution, but as
he wanted to administer the rite of b ,ptisai only twenty
minutes bEfore the execution, the auth:eides would not
sanction ir.
POOR-LAW ADMINISTRATION BILL.
The order of the day for going into Committee upon
the Poor-law Administration Bill was then read for the
purpose of postponing it.
The further consideration of the Bill was then post.
pened until Monday next.
PRICE OF BREAD.
Sir DE LACY EVANS said that, in answer to a
question asked the other evening by an lion. Member,
as to whether there was any intention on the part of the
Government to bring in any measure to regulate the
price and weight of bread in consequence of the price of
bread not rising and falling with the price of wheat. He
begged to state that the price of bread had uniformly
kept pace with the price of wheat in all its fluctuations.
He hoped that alarms of this nature would not be given
unnecessarily.
Mr. BANKES said that he was amenable for what he
said, but not for the way in which it might be reported.
The speech he made was reported very correctly in the
public papers, but he could not be answerable for any
alarm it might create. He then held in his hand a pe-
tition from a magistrate in the country, stating that
there was a considerable amount of fraud daily practised
upon the poor man in the price of bread. In order to
prove that, h. would state that a short timc since the
price of bread in Paris was cheaper than it was in Lon-
don at the time when the corn in France was higher in
price than in England. He thought that though there
might not be any complaints of these frauds in West-
minster, yet in other parts of the kingdom the practice
of the delivering fraudulent weight was very prevalent.
Mr. HEATHCOTE said that the price of bread in
London might be cheaper, in relation to the price of
corn, than it was in Paris, in consequence of the easy
mode of carriage upon the Thames, the better ma-
chinery and the cheaper price of fuel for baking. He
could not, however, understand the reason of the price
of bread varying from lid. to 110. in different parts
of the metropolis, and he hoped that a Committee
would be appointed to inquire into this subject.
Mr. B. ESCOTT said that it was not possible to
purchase good coarse bread in Landon ; but the pro-
duce of the bushel of wheat was wasted upon the forma-
tion of white bread.

PRISONS BILL.
On the motion that the order of the day for the ad-
journed debate upon going into Committee upon the
Prisons Bill be read,
Mr. NEWDEGATE said that he should not have
troubled the House at all upon this occasion had it not
been for the strong feeling which he knew was enter-
tained throughout the country, that the abolition
of transportation would be a great misfortune.
The evils which had arisen from the old system
of transportation were attributable not to the
punishment itself, but to the way in which it
was administered. The failure of the system of punish-
ment in Norfolk Island and Van Diemen's Land had
throughout been attributable to the inadequate means
which had been given for carrying it into effect. Instead
of any attempt being made to correct the error into
which the late Government fell on this subject, they
were pursuing a similar course. It was an opinion
among the public in this country that the abolition of
transportation would be injurious to this country by
doing away with a means ot ridding this country of its
superabundant population by sending out of it its worst
members. They were adopting the principle of this
measure upon most erroneous grounds, and were to
substitute for transportation the silent and other
experimental systems which had been by no means
successful. The Hon. Member here read ex‘racts from
several letters, to show that the system of Lord Stanley
had failed, not through any intrinsic demerits of that
system, but from its being jumbled up with some local
regulations, and it was from that most unfair ground
that the Government proposed the present measure. It
was alleged by Lord Grey that the ground of abolishing
transportation to the Australian colonies, was not any
local defects, hut from a conviction of the soundness of
the total abolition of transportation. The Hon. Gentle-
man here read some letters to show the peculiar adapta-
tion of the Australian colonies for purposes of transpor-
tation. The opinion of the judges on this question was
to be taken into consideration, for he (IA not agree with
what was said of these learned functionaries,
namely, that their opinion was not to be valued,
because they were men cf such microscopic eyes.
that they could not comprehend any great subject. All
the Judges, he believed, with the exception of Judge
Perrin, were in favour of transportation, and had de-
clared that no description of imori,onment would be an
efficient substitute for transportation. The Hon. Member
then quoted the expressed opinion of Lord Denman, Mr.
Justice Wightman, Mr. Justice Erle,and the Scotch Judges
who deprecated the abolition of transportation. In
Ireland to which he would now come, there was no part
of the United Kingdom wh. re the operation of this
measure would be so injurious, wnere the punish-
ment of transportation was so mnch dreaded. The
Irish Judges had expressed their opinion very
strongly in favour of transportation In short,
to his mind, no opinion could bo so conclusive
against imprisonment as the opinion of Chief Justice
Pennefatber. He is not merely opposed to imprison-
ment, but equally against the system of solitary impri-
sonment. Solitary imprisonment was, above WI, hideous
and odious to human nature. He had seen the model
prison of Philadelphia, and it disgusted him. The
system was tried in England with every effort to make it
succeed, and yet what had been the consequences ? Dr.
s)roly and his colleague report, as the consequences of
the system, most evident symptoms of incipient insanity,
the first appearance of the mind yielding beneath the
treatment. In many instances these symptoms had been
matured into confirmed insanity. This system had been
established in almost every state in America ; it was
popular upon its introduction ; but atter having been
tried, it was almost universally abolished in favour of the
silent system. Re regretted to hear the Secretary of
State say that the Government had determined to adopt
it—a mode of punishment the most horrible to
man, and such as human nature could not
support. Why, be asked, if they were to
follow the example of America, should they begin at the
wrong end? Why should this country not profit by the
experience of America? He had quoted the opinions of
the judges upon the other system, bow did they speak in
reference to the silent system? Thirty-one judges had
been consulted; twenty-three said they bad no means of
judging of the system; four were adverse, and four spoke
in favour. He was surprised that they could hesitate,
when facts before them were such as Pentonville exhi-
bited, and as had been witnessed among the convicts
sent out from that prison. Often the physical nature was
nrostrated—often the mind was debased and brutal-
ised, if it was not bereft of reason entirely.
He must say, that when such evidence lay upon the
table, and when he had known of his own knowledge
that the separate system had failed in America, he hoped
that her Majesty's Government would pause before they
imposed this silent system upon the whole country ; at
was done in ignorance of the nature of man. When
God had placed man in the world, and had tested his
superiority, he said, "it is not good for man to be
alone."—(Laughter.) He saw some Members inclined
to laugh, he did not think that that was a proper way
to treat the authority which he had quoted. He consi-
dered that the present proposition was a false step which
had been made; for a Liberal Government who boasted
to regard the popular voice, for that Government to
change a system against the popular wish was a moot
arbitrary proceeding. The Right Hon. Baron had
explained transportation to be only placing th
at the disposal of her Majesty's Government. L cebr ta a
oaa !! i
ea
only imagine a clergyman passing sentence uepo
cri-
minal • let him say, you John Thomas have been con.
convicted of a heinous mime, and it is my duty to pas&
on you the severest penalty of the law, namely, to place
you at the disposal of her Majest) 's Government. Would
not that be a most lame and lamentable conclusion ; it
would unsettle the public mind. And if an Irishman
was the person sentenced, he would say, why such a pu-
nishment is not worse than being made a chalk clerk,
for he is at the disposal of her Majesty's Government.
He believed that if her Majesty's Ministers persevered
in this measure that they would forfeit the confidence of
the
eM. people.
'Mr.
MILNES supported the Bill; they had tried
the system of penal punishment in the colonies under
every po-sible phase and they had failed, and therefore
it, was wise in the Government to introduce a new
system. He believed that they had failed in consee
silence of the distance of the colons, and not from any
Itailli, of those in office. .he system of assignment would
be the life blood ot the colony to its very fountain,
it was the very wo. st possible regulation that could be
adopted—it was fraught with evil and ruin. Transpor—
tation might, and did appear to be, a very ad.mirable-
mode of getting rid of offenders in the eyes of foreign.
nations, but they soon began to discover that it betray,ed
themselves.o o nyibsl4
a4toalf dthiserefguaturdreofwtehlefainreteoref
lthsenuont ofonrlytuonfathteesc
He would not detain the House longer, but conclude by
e ressing his thanks to her Majesty's Government for
tthiclns
attempt
ips
to charge the resent system of transports-
. There was one subject, however, to which he
shed to direct the attention of the Right Hon. Gentle-
the Secretary for the Home Department, namely,
Ist was to be done with those prisoners who had.
Jergone the full term of imprisonment, bad were
idy to be discharged. The number of recommittals
s most erroneous--many of the prisoners having been.,
own to be recommitted four, five, six, ten, and at
;en times, and there had been some cases wh ere
:ornmittals had occurred to the incredible numb' ar of
I) times. Surely this was an immense evil, and ',,eould
upy a considerable share of attention, with v 4 view to
• some Measure for the prevention o"2 AA II