The Sun.
London, England, 1841-01-27 00:00:00

at the time the Treaty of July was commenced.—( Hear.)
The Noble Lord then read several extracts from the cor-
respondence of M. Guizat to the Minister of Foreign
Affairs, showing the French Government were aware of
the nature of the negotiations that were pending relative
to Syria, and proceeded. His Noble Friend informed the
French Ambassador, on the 17th of July, of the conclu-
sion of the Convention, and vet the Government of France
said they were taken by surprise. He could not say he
thought there was any justice in this complaint. He
lamented the estrangement and irritation which arose in
Franoe. He believed France to be an enlightened, a gal-
lent nation—one that had done much for the civilization
of Europe and the world—and he could not speak of such
a nation without sincere esteem.— (Cheers• )
Nor could
he wonder when the Government of France appealed to
their feelings of honour and interest, that it produced
cd
feelings of irritation and estrangement, because the people
could not follow the train of negotiation, but he did
peace
chaodff
beeno
twi
e wonder
so ro
c ot
recklessuhna tt r
countries.
.ha e
s Thisoius Government
to
naturallyendanger
exf excited
itedtil:n
efreaeplcienegs of
alarm and insecurity, and gave it to he understood there
were in England feelings of hostility and estrangement
which never had existed.—( Cheers. ) His Noble Friend
had stated at the end of last Session, in reply to the lion.
Member for Kilkenny, that this Treaty was not intended
against France. He believed such was the rule they had
laid down for themselves, and he could not conceive what
grounds there were for a contrary statement. He thought
the dignity of France had been lowered by the course their
Government had pursued.—(Cheers.) What was the
natural course to adopt in such a case ? Why, to enter into
an arrangement and to say to the Pacha, Such is the arrange-
ment, and you must accept it. Therefore in the present
transaction, he maintained that it was not the conduct of
England which led to the separation which he
lamented, but it was the unfortunate conduct
of the French Government in transferring to
Mehemet Ali that attachment they had always protested
towards the Sultan. With respect to the signing of the
Treaty, he knew it had been said that a proposition would
again be made to Mehemet Ali. Up to July they had ne-
gotiated in vain. The people of Syria had risen against
Mehemet Ali. The Government of England knew that
the opinion of the French Government was decidedly
adverse to them, and if they had asked them to sign the
treaties it would have led to proposals to negotiate, and
thus the whole of the year 1840 would have been
lost. When he read the exposition given by the French
Minister of Foreign Affairs, he could not doubt that
if the consent of the French Government had been
asked to those terms there would have been some cavil
about the words of that Treaty, or about the entry of
the English fleet into the Dardanelles. The peace of
Europe would have been still further endangered, and the
necurity of that great object further off than ever. He
would not make any remark with respect to what had
happened since the conclusion of the Treaty. His Noble
Friends, who bad moved and seconded the Address, had
expressed their sense of the valour of the navy of this coun-
try, and all that had been engaged in this expedition,
especially of those who had been engaged at Acre,
in those statements he fully concurred, and he
trusted that the enterprise which had been shown
would have the effect of putting an end to
those unfounded remarks. lie ventured to say, when
the inefficiency of the navy was stated to the House that
it was difficult in times of peace to prove that ships and
men were worthy of the name of the British navy, but he
would venture to predict that if au occasion arose they
would maintain the glory of their country. He had no
doubt but that the achievements in the East had been
attended with danger, but he knew the course that had
been adopted was that least likely to be attended with
danger, and for his own part he saw no course that was
likely to lead to so satisfactory a result. He thought they
might hope it would release the Sultan from the dread of
a vassal, and give stability to his country and throne. If
this were the result of the course adopted by the Govern-
ment, he thought the people would have no cause to corn.
plait, of those in whose hands the Government had been
placed.—( Hear.) Before he concluded what he had to
say with respect to their foreign affairs, he would state
to the House that he saw in the course of the discussion
in the French Chambers the name of a noble and honoured
friend of his, lately deceased, had been mentioned. He
felt that he could not state precisely what his Noble
Friend's views were on this subject, but this he must say
that all his motives were connected with the general peace
of the world, and that he never departed from them
during the period of his life.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
He would say further that whatever motives actuated him
—whatever policy he supported, he did so with a high
sense of honour and unflinching integrity. lie (Lord
John Russell) could, however, state, that he inherited the
opinions as well as the name of Fox, and was the valued
friend of a distinguished character of the day who fol-
lowed and represented the great principle% entertained
and advocated by Mr. Fox. The Hon. Member for Lon-
don had, in the latter part of his speech. hoped if there
were to be no improvement at home—if finality prevailed
—we might be able to maintain peace in our provinces.
With regard to the general domestic policy, that Hon.
Gentleman was entirely mistaken. The Government
were not in any sense enemies—on the contrary, with re-
gard to judicial affairs, matters of trade, and other do-
mestic matters, they were of opinion that a gradual im-
provement might and ought to be made ; these were the
principles upon which they wished to a: and. But they
were not willing to confound abuses with institutions—
they would not defend abuses as institutions ; and, on the
other hand, they would not destroy institutions as abuses.
He wished to maintain an Established Church, an Here-
ditary Peerage, and Hereditary Monarchy, and if any
proposition were made to destroy any of them, he
would find it his duty to oppose it with all the
power of the Goverment, thinking, as he did,
that they would lead to convulsion, and would
postpone, if not destroy, all chance of oar obtaining any
salutary improvement. He wished to see improvements
made in all ways, and he would gladly co.operate in car-
rying them into effect. Other occasions would offer for
him to explain himself more at large ; he would therefore
conclude by saying that the Government were perfectly
willing to take upon themselves all the responsibility
which attached to all they had done, and while they re-
mained Ministers they would maintain those principles
which they thought were for the benefit of the country.—
( Loud cheers.)
Mr. MILN ES then rose, but was not heard for some
time in consequence of the noise occasioned by Members
leaving the House. Ile regretted that there was so much
apathy in this country on foreign affairs, and he was glad
that the Noble Lord had avowed the responsibility of the
Government for their acts; he would also hold them re-
sponsible for their omissions. He did not think the Noble
Lord had answered the lion. Member for London in a
satisfactory manner. Ile wished to impress on the House
that the intervention which had taken place in consequence
of the Treaty of July was a different thing from that moral
support which was given to the Ottoman empire
by the gallant fleet of the Five Powers. He thought
there was a painful omission in the Speech of her Ma-
jesty, for he agreed that the very peculiar circumstances
in which our foreign relations now stood, not only autho-
rised, but absolutely demanded some expressions of regret
at the rupture that had taken p'ace between this country
and France. That expression of regret not having taken
place, he felt bound to protest against the assumption
that the intention of the Treaty of July, namely the inte-
grity and independence of the Ottoman empire, had been
secured. He believed the angry feeling the French na-
tion had attributed to us did not exist, and he hoped the
Noble Lord would state so this evening. England had no
immediate interest in this question. lie did not accuse
the intentions of her Majesty's Ministers, but he did accuse
them of shortsightedness, of ignorance of the character of
the French people and of French history.--
( Hear, hear.) Any person who had paid attention
to French history would know that the French had al-
ways been engaged in active hostility or co-operation with
other Powers, and that they would keenly feel anything
which in the least approximated to a alight on their alli-
ance. He did not wish to apologise for the over-sensitive-
ness of the French people, but it should have been taken
into consideration before Ministers had risked the awful
contingency of a rupture with that nation. The Noble
Lord had asked them whether if England had been placed
in the position of France, she would have adopted the
same course which France had taken. He knew the apathy
of the English people with respect to foreign affairs, and
he believed it would require great excitement to arouse
them ; but if Ft-mace and Russia had bound themselves
together to protect the East he believed this country
would have risen to oppose it.—(Hear, hear.) The
present state of the country was greatly to be deplored ;
it was in a state of armed peace, and he was much afraid
that state of armed peace would continue. In conclu-
sion, he called upon her Majesty's Government most
anxiously to consider the state of affairs between this coun-
tryltoe
Pranceuirl
dpob we e rub
oeto c I
emha heal ae the
faorrt
oo
tuhanenddc
otFahrl
eiatyni
ochnea,
doafi
nn
fidEi
cut otreoddpoe;
afltoihri untileirne wt
England.

Mr. HUME then rose to address the House. If he
had net paid particular attention to this question he should
have rested his opposition to the policy of her Majesty's
Ministers on the speech of the Hon. Member for London •
but having brought this subject before the House last year,
he felt bound to call their attention to the dangerous situa-
tion in which the Government had placed the country.
Ile complained of the course which the Noble Lord had
pursued. He had not been candid with the House, and
had not laid before the House the negociations that were
going on, fearful, no doubt, that the House would have
interfered and have stopped that mad career which had
placed them in their present unfortunate situat:on. The
House bad always been denied information. The treaty
was concluded in July, and the House did not separate till
August ; yet the Noble Lord thought proper to withhold
every 6 paper on the subject. It the necessary information
had been laid before the House tho Noble Lord would not
have had a majority in the Cabinet in favour of his views.
Thneyfahcatd heard a
everybody g great dealwt
knew
of
e www,•)haat passed i t
passed in
the
et
cCabinet
—i—(A laugh.) The channels of the Government commu-
nicate,l it to the public. If the Whig papers did not the
Tory papers did ; so that between the two there was
no difficulty in knowing what the opinions
.of
her Majesty 'a Ministers were.—( Loud laughtei.)
It was well known that one nobleman, whose loss the
country deeply deplored, had been decidedly opposed to
the policy which had been pursued by the Government,
and he ( Mr. Hume) believed that vexation at the course
affa.rs were taken, had hastened that nobleman's decease.
The Commons House of Parliament had been treated
with great disrespect by the Government, and he be-
lieved that a state of alienation had been created between
France and England, whieh would be productive of moat
disastrous consequences to the welfare of this country,
and
u r
onlyp e. perhaps at no distant period disturb the peace of
Eokie considered the policy of the Government,
not
bad, as regarded the commerce of the country,
but wicked as regarded the desolation and ruin which had
been perpetrated upon an unoffending province. The
Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies bad declared
that he would assert the independence of the Sultan, and
they had been told by the organs of the Government that
it was necessary to put down the grinding tyranny of
Mehemet All.
. He was nat going to apologize for
Mehemet Ales conduct, but he would ask the Noble

Lord by whom had the independence of the Ottoman em-
pire been threatened ? He denied that it had been
threatened by Mehemet Ali. The real fact was this,
that the Sultan, although under terms of treaty of peace
with 'Mehemet Ali, in 1830. with the evident intention
of overwhelming Mehemet Ali, without notice, and con-
trary to the acknowleged pledge he had given, marched a
large force into Syria, aid attacked the villages, and part of
the army of Ibrahim Pacha. He endeavoured to raise the
people against Ibrahim Pacha, but Ibrahim Pacha almost
anihilated his army. He stated this as a proof that if
Mehemet Ali had any intentions of destroying the Otto-
man empire, or of going to Constantinople, he would have
done it when he was flushed with victory after the battle of
Nezib, and two days after the death of the Sultan
Mahmond. At that very instant, too, the Turkish fleet
deserted. Again, he would ask, what right had Russia
to interfere with the affairs of Syria? Nicholas might
just as well go to Ireland and say that he would settle the
repeal question, and that the Government of England had
nothing to do with it. Ile therefore contended that the
priciple on which Russia and this country interfered with
Syria, was most inischeivous, and that the Noble Lord
had failed to make out a ease. The Noble Lord had not
given an answer to the lion. Member for London. lie
had not stated why or upon what ground this country
had interfered. Did any human being believe that Nicho-
las had any disposition to maintain the integrity of the
Ottoman Empire? If the British Government had been
anxious to secure peace without any of the evils that had
arisen, they had only to have allowed the Sultan and Me.
hemet Ali to make such terms as they might have thought
proper. The last wish of the Sultan was that his son
would make peace wit-h Mehemet Al No, no !" from
Lord Brahazon.) The Noble Lord might say " No, no,"
but he (Mr. II.) had heard that such was the fact. The
Divan immediately applied itself to the subject, and sent a
messenger to Alexandria, and received a favourable an-
swer. But there was a little difference with respect to
Acre, which British influence might have adjusted. But
instead of that, this country was now to be subjected to
increased taxation, in consequence of the violation
of the sacred principle of non-intervention. This
was the subject of his heavy complaint against the
Ministers He thought be could show that there was no
ground far charging Mehemet Ali with treasonable de-
siges. He would refer to the character given of him by the
Noble Secretary for Foreign Affairs. With great sorrow
and regret he (Mr. Hume) saw the public organs of the
Noble Lord—( A laugh)—he knew that the columns of
tho Meriting Chronicle were open to the Noble Lord—
( Laughter)—at least so the public said—( A laugh)—
these columns were quite open to receive all the trash that
was sent to them, and goodness knew that plenty of it
came.—(Laughter.) It was said that the Whig Minis-
ters were justified in rescuing Syria from the tyranny of
.Mehemet Ali, but the Ministers intended to relieve only
one-half of Syria from that grinding tyranny. He had
the Noble Lord's proposition to that effect, in his own
despatch, in which doubt was expressed whether Acre
should be thrown in or not. There never was a more
vascillating policy than the Noble Lord's. Indeed he
could not say he knew what that policy was. The
Speech said they were on the eve of completing their ob-
jects, but he did not know what those objects were. The
Noble' Lord spoke of the grinding tyranny of Mehemet
Ali, and he (Mr. Hume) would not deny that there had
been oppression, that the conscription was odious, and that
money was raised by all possible means ; but he asked was
there no oppression under the Ottoman rule, or why was
the Noble Lord willing to leave all Egypt and part of
Syria under the grinding tyranny of Mehemet ? The
Noble Lord (Brahazon) said that the Government of the
Pacha was spreading riot and anarchy throughout Syria,
forgetting that the English Government was arying its
hand at the same game, that the Noble Secretary for
Foreign Affairs had his spies spreading disaffection
throughout Syria. Mr. Wood, the agent of Lord Ponsonby,
distributed arms and money amongst the people, and
spread insurrection to afford a pretence for our interfe-
rence. One of the reasons given for interference was
that the Pacha threatened to declare himself independent,
but it was evident, from the correspondence of the British
Consul (Colonel Campbell) with Lord Palmerston, in
1838, that whatever intentions the Pacha might have en-
tertained to- that effect was reasoned out of him by the
British and French Consuls. The lion. Member then
read from a despatch of Lord Palmerston a high eulogy
upon the Pacha, his sense of justice, and his success in in-
troducing peace and order and respect for property in the
provinces subject to his rule. He (Mr. H.) asked had
not the Noble Lnrd substituted in Syria anarchy and in-
security for life and property, instead of the state of
things which he eulogized in that dispatch ? He (Mr.
H.) knew a person whose camel died in the Desert on the
road to Suez, and he was obliged to leave his goods and
trunks unguarded for several days, but on his return he
found all were perfectly safe. lie asked would so much
respect for property be experienced on the road to Brent-
ford ? Fifty thousand stand of arms had been placed in the
hands of the Druses, and he asked how was the Sul-
tan, under such circumstances, to maintain his autho-
rity ? Were we to keep up an army in Syria, and a
fleet of twenty-two ships? The purposes of Russia
could not be more effectually promoted than by the civil
war in those parts of the Turkish dominions, at the
same time that a rupture subsisted between this country
and France. The proposition of the Pacha that he and
the Porte should maintain an army of 50,000 men, to be
prepared against the common enemy was wise and for the
good of the Ottoman empire, and, if attended to, would
have prevented the occurrences which had since taken
place, and by which all Europe had been compelled to
arm, at an expense of forty or fifty millions, in
which, no doubt, England would have taken part.
He regretted that there was not one word of
conciliation offered towards France in the Speech.
He was sorry to say that every thing that was bona fide
connected with the real interests of the country had been
neglected. There was no notice taken in the speech of
that great and important question education, there was no
intimation of any intention on the part of her Majesty's
Government to follow nut the education of the people,
which was so much required and for which the Noble Lord
had got so much credit last year ; no notice was taken
with reference to the state of commercial improvements, of
which the country stood so much in need ; in fact there
was such an indifference shown to the real interests of the
country as he had never before witnessed in a Speech from
the Throne. He considered the Speech as far as it
went most objectionable, as it took credit for an
act that was a disgrace to any Government, he alluded
to the convention entered into between the Powers
of Europe and this country to circumscribe the power
of Mehemet Ali. On the whole, he felt bound to protest
against the Speech, because it did not state what it ought
to have done—it did not call the attention of the House
to the condition of the people, or to home affairs ; the
foreign policy, it appeared, occupied more the attention of
the Government than the home did, the latter of which
was so necessary to be attended to for the benefit of the
country. He trusted, in conclusion, that her Majesty's
Government would apply itself to remedy the evils under
which the country laboured, and endeavour to put an end
to them ere it was too late. He would now read to the
House the amendment he proposed to the Address,
whether or not he should take the sense of the House
upon it he would not then say, but, at any rate he wished
it to be put upon the Journals, as, probably, if he took the
sense of the House upon it, he should stand alone.

Mr. WARBURI'ON here intimated to the Hon.
Member that he would second the amendment.

Mr. HUM E said that such being the case, he would
submit his amendment to the consideration of the House.
The Hon. Member then read his amendment which he
proposed should be inserted after the first paragraph. It
was to the following effect :—Thanking her Majesty for
calling them together, but regretting that her Majesty had
not called their attention specially to the finances of the
country, and the condition of the working classes; stating
that they regarded war as destructive to a civilized com-
munity, and that they could not but view with apprehen-
sion any interruption of the peace which had been so hap-
pily enjoyed for so great a number of years. Stating
that they viewed with special uneasiness the state of the
country with respect to France, and that they
regarded with distrust the Convention formed
between this country, Austria, Russia, and Prussia.
Humbly stating to her Majesty that while they admitted
her prerogative to declare war, they considered it their
duty to examine the exercise of that prerogative ; and
they therefore humbly requested her Majesty to command
her Ministers to lay before that House the grounds on
which tkey had adopted their policy with respect to
Egypt. To express to her Majesty their surprise that her
Majesty's advisers should have recommended increased
establishments, considering the present state of the country,
and regretting that her Majesty had not directed their
attention to the increased expenditure of the country, and
the distress and discontent that existed in it. This he
(Mr. Hume) considered to be a fit and proper Address to
present to her Majesty in aniwer to the Speech, and be
should therefore move it as an amendment to the one
proposed by the Noble Lord.'
Mr. WA RBURToN seconded the amendment.
Sir ROBERT PE EL then rose, and addressed the
House as follows—Sir, there is one subject of such over-
powering importance connected with the peace of Europe
and the general interest of mankind, and that so com-
pletely casts into the shade any other topic, however
portant,lhat it is hardly necessary to notice the omissions
made in the Speech, or the language in which those topics
are introduced into the Speech. It is an old saying, that
speeches from the Throne were always intended to be as
unintelligible as possible,-and I certainly must say, with
respect to the Speech delivcred by her Majesty this day,
I never recollect a Speech to which the appellation of
being unintelligible could be better applied. It says as
little as possible upon all the leading questions that have
agitated the country, and,looking at it as the Speech of
her Majesty's Ministers, it might justly be said of it that
it had been given to man for the purpose of
concealing his thoughts. Sir, I was amused by the
speeches of the mover and seconder of the Address, for
they did find it so utterly impossible to eke out their
speeches to a becoming decorous length, that they found
it was absolutely incumbent upon them, at the risk of of-
fending the Government, to suggest all those topics that
might have been introduced into the Speech ; namely,
the state of Canada, the Boundary question, the state of
the country at home, the state of Ireland, the state of the
war on the north-west frontier, and so on. All these
topics were introduced by the mover and seconder, with
reflections on her Majesty's Government for not having
introduced that which they would have introduced, had
they had to prepare the Speech.—(Laughter.) It was
evident that the mover and seconder were in possession of
information which had not reached her Majesty's Minis-
ters—( Laughter)—for in talking of China one of the
gentlemen had indulged in a tone of triumph, which I
think those who prepared the Speech did not consider
themselves entitled to indulge in. It was clear that the':,
edict of the Emperor of China, of which so much had.
been said, was riot genuine, if the statements of one of
the Honourable Members wets to have any weight attached
to it. With respect to the Address itself, no man, I
think, can refuse to assent to the cautious manner in
which it has been drawn up.—( Hear, hear.) With re-
spect to the military movements that have taken place,
I cannot help feeling great regret that, after the
lapse of 25 years of peace, it should become necessary
again to resort to war, I had hoped that new interests