The Sun.
London, England, 1841-03-13 00:00:00

THE SUN. LONDON, SATEIRDA Y. MARCH 13, 1841.

Council. They had been well done, and the House might
safely leave all the posters of the Bill to be exereseci by
him. He congratulated the House upon no appr:)ach to
do even tardy justice to India. CI ies of " Divide.")
Mr. LA BO LTC II ERE sail a few words, but io
quenee of the confusion caused by the influx of Members
consequent on the naging cf tLe division hell, he Ira--; not
hrard in the gallery.

Mr. HOGG did not think that any one would have di.
vided tha House on such a proposition; but Fhoutd any ouc
do so, he had no feu' for the result. Why were the au-
thorities and population of the Eaq Indies to be Fo di--
trusted ? Were they not as honest as those a the West
hidics? What could the Pr:v) Counc I know of t:e ex-
cise regulations? were they to be raised into a tribuoil of
appeal upon such a question ?
Strangers were then orde el to s.ti,hdra r, but
Mr. GOULBURN withdrew his amends-ent, and the
clause was agreed t".
The rennaining clauses were then agreed to ; ahl the
Chairman reported; the BM to be further consider e I en
Monday next.
COUNTY COURTS' BILL.

Mr. F. MA ULE moved thesecond—rea,lieg of the
County Courts' Bill.
Sir F. POLLOCK did not ri-e for the purpose cf o; -
posing the Bel, hut, et the same time, he thought it teat,
due to the Government and to the House to state ti ae. he
entertained considerable objection to many of the clatems,
and some of them the principal ones. It was necessary,
he had almost said, for the honour of Parliameht, that a
Bill on this subject should he passed. It was so lone ago
as 1823, when Lord Althorp proposed a Bill, which was
read a first time. It was introduced in the next year, and
passed, but was thrown out by the Lords, bee alio of
the want of compeesation claims.. It was intro-
duced the following year, but file l in a Cenardttee.
But in 1827 the Right Hun. Member for Tarnwmte,
brought in a Bill founded upon the same princii le as
Lord Althorp'e, which was read a first time only. Next
year it was read a first and second time, but was de: el
in consequence of the appointment of a Committee ; it was
not tuitaer proceeded with. It. 1830 it was introduced
by Mr. Brougham, but net passed. Ia 1830 and 1831
they were all too busy with the Reform Bill to case much
ebout it, and in 1832 it wet supeneded by the Com-
mission of which he had the honour to be a Me 'Ace
In 1832 a Bill was iatcoducee into the House of Lurie,
but it was not successful ; in 1834 he lelieved nothing was
done; and in 1835, when he ( Sir F. Pollock) was on the
opposite side of the House, he st ted, in answer to
a question from his Hor. and Lzarned Friend the Att r
ney-General, that it was his intention to bring in a 13i11 to
facilitate the recovery of small debts. In consequence of
the appropriation clause havimg been carried in that
Session his Hon. and Learned ItYend decline At-
tornay- General, but he seemed to have quite for-
gotten the question he had put to him (Sir Frederick
Pollock) in the early part of the Session, for he
brought is no measure on the subject. In 1838 anoth r
similar measure was hrougeit forward, but was ultimately
withdrawn, All those various Bills conetered is c.rtein
pointy, and it might be taken as the concurrent oeicion of
various Parliaments and Governments, that something was
nccessa-r to be done upon the subject. They concurred
in the extension of the jurisdiatian of the County or Local
Couits—in the reduction of expense, and in giving a
summary jurisdiction. But they differed a good deal in
other t els; and, first, vti It regard to the manner in
eltich the Judge should be appointed Now, unfit r the
present Bill, a power etas placed in tie hands of the Ge-
vernment to en tee not less than fifty cfiic es, at rem
salary of 1,500/ a year etch, and that he thought a !rmit
monstrous and uncalled for exercise of Goma:mni. In.-
trenage.—(flesr, hear.) The 13111 of his Right Hoe.
Friend, on the contrary, left the Judges of the Couity
Couits as they at present existed, but me.e'y gave the n
more extereice jurisdiction. It apps aef to him that it
was much better to improve the extstirg inaliteti ,n than
to introduce an entirely new principle. In ell the Bills
that hid been introduced into that House it was provided
tFe.t the Judges should he barristers of a ce, t tin s are'ing.
The 1.1.11 of 1839 provided that tie batri•t.:r should
be of seven years' standing. but after the Bill
came out of the Select Committee to which it had been
ref, rred, a barrister of any stan_iiag might be
appointed the Judge, and ie like manner any :et rr.e.; t f
any of the Superior Courts night be selected. These
pre-
visions weic emb el'od in the pies(' t Nil, and tie y
t him very ohjectiona'sle. Thee Was en:eller
clause connected with the examii atiun of the parties to a
suit, which he should ray reqei, ed amendmen'. Thee,
was no objection is cases where there were only small
sums of money in dispute to examiee the phiiiitiff and (la-
fendant, but the House would recollect that the present Bill
xtended the jurisdiction of these Couits to cases of slat -
de-, libel, seduction, and criminal conversation, an 1 in
such cases it wauld be most injudicious and oljee-
tienable to have the parties called forward and put
into the witness box to undergo the cross-examination of
the opposite party.—( Hear, hear.) At present he ex -
pressad no opinion one way or the other, but he enter-
tained considerable doubt whether the clause with refer-
ence to cases cf seduction would be found to work well.
There was also another detail of the rite tsure which ap-
peared to him of rather questionable utility, namely, the
power of imprisoning the person, which they all knee was
liable to great &awe. Now there was no use i I the. suit
unless the money was recovered, and he confessed 1 e was
decidedly opposed to the prit,ciple of imprisoning a party
until time debt was paid.—( dear, hear.) He obj c
also to their extending these Courts to places where they
already had local Courts of a concurrent jurisdictior, and
he was satisfied the painies in these towns and districts
would by no means thank them for interfering with the
established and rect gaited Courts in their localieee
HI would now draw time art mina of the House to aeotLe
clause, by which the Lord Chancellor would be trub'el
i to, apps ant 25 avr? Judges. That power was a most
dangerous one, and io that r erf.ect the present Bill w s, he
coece'ved, e most dangerous and unconstitutional en.. The
object of the Bill seemed to he to give to the Crown the
power of creating the patroett;e which it was to exrrnse.
With the exception of the power that was give-i to the
Poor-law Commissioners of making edict; which s' euld
have the free of an Act of Parliament, he did not know
of a more unconstitutional Bill than the prescn', which
would give to Vac Crown the power of creating front time
to time places which were to he used as the Crown
thought fit. Mitiaters were evidently induced to bring
in this Bill at the present tine with a vista to sty
fleets at a general e'cction which was likely soon to
occur, for a dissolu'ion of Parliameet was im-
o i.ient. The distribution of those fifty places, at
1,500/. a y ear, gave, ha conceived, more than double
the patronage cf tits bestowal 'of tituatiens in ell
tit e regiments of cavalry and infantry in the army. 112
would not content to a'ay measure of this sort, which
would undoubtedly cast suspicion on the motives of the
Government.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the course
adopted by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman oppesi.e was
a most extraordinary one. He ( Sir F. Pollock) began by say-
ing that he entirely agreed to the principle ef the
and reproached Ministers wit'n not having long :i :co
brought forward a sneesure t f this sort, and then he sud-
denly turned round and did all i t his power to show Elea
the motives which actuetel the Government in le ieg
forwarJ that B 11 were inTroper ones, not having in view the
eublic good but the extension of the patronage of the Crowe.
With regard to the charge of delay, he ( the Attorney Ge-
neral) must app, at to that House and the country whether,
since the pa: 1835, tine Members of the Government had
not exerted themselves to improve tic law and the inn Coo-
'ions of the country. The lion. and Learned Genie ran
then instanced the 11.11 with respect to the execution of
wills, and several other excellent measures passed since
that period. The Bill now before the House was intro-
duced in the year 1839. It oat then rthrred to a Select
Committee of Members, who were taken from both sides
of the !Luse. That Committee devoted much time to the
consideration of the several clauses of the Bill, which were,
as he was it formed, unaeimoutly adopted, with the ex-ep-
tiun of the clause which refer:el to the manner in which
the Judges should be appciated. That clause was modi-
fied, and the 8,11 was now introduced inn its amended see-,
such as it carne from the Commitec. A more gratuieets
and unfounded charge was never made than that which
was brought against the Gus ernment by the lionoureble
and Learned Member opposite, inn attempting to im-
pugn the motives which urged them to bring inn tints
BLI. It seemed to him, at that stage, to he unneceFeaey
t cn'er into the deteils of the Bill ; but, with respect t •
Vie power cf imprisonmen', the clause was instreed out of
respect to the Committee, otherwi:e be (the Attorr
Geleral) was disposed to object to it. He thought the
House and the public would he of opinion that it was a
measure calculated to prOnacto the administration of juF-
lice, and to supply a defect tin .t bad lorg been fe't. He
believed that the insinuations which had been thrown cut
by Lit Learned Friend would be considered as unfounded,
except by those of his own party —( Hear, hear,
hear.) He (the Attorney-General) was sorry
to hear them in the speech of his Learned Friend,
and he thought if he (Sir F. Pollock) wished to make an
attack upon the Government he might have found a more
fitting opportunity.—( Hear, hear.) He thought nis
Learaed Friend had little displayed his good taste in se-
lecine this Bill as the ground of a panty attack. It wes
a Bill which embodi.el 'all the m. in priecieles of the Bill
of the Bight Hon. Memi cr for Tamworth, and which had
been approved of by all those who had fur years pest
sought to improve our laws. He hoped, therefore, it
would go into Committee, when,
if there was any objec-
tion to a particular clause it could be i. iscussed, and be
believed that if it was carried, as he did not doubt it would
be, it would be considered as a boon to the country,
Sir E. SIM DE N said a Law Bill was always con-
sidered a party question, and therefore he was sureeised
at the surprise expressA by the Learned Attorney-Ge-
neral at what had falleu from his Learned Friend. Ili;
Leaned Friend (Sir F. Pollock) had said nothing of a
His Learned Friend had
panty character.—( Laughter.)
not made charges ageiest the Government, but said he
feared the charges he mentioned would be brought agaithe
against ti em by people out ef doors.—( Laughter.) His
Gevernrrent te whi h be
courage in spealleg cf. tine legislative efforts t.c
Hon. and Learned Friend (the Attorney-Gene. al) had a
(Sir E. Sugden) could not pre_
tend. He would proce to diieuss Iles measure, and to
show how it would operate, and V.e abuses to which it
was liable ; but he would first advert to another me .sure
before the House, the Administration of Justice Bile
He thought the House ought to knew what the G. verarrent
intended to do with this me stee before they were (nil:A
upon to discuss the one then before them. Her Majesty's
Government had also issued a commission to inquire into
bankruptcy and insolvency, and the Commissioner.:, with
one exception, made a report. The ether Commiisioners
also made a report, and it was upon the report of that
single Commissioner that the Government measure was
funded, The majority of the Commissioners had re_
commended the abolition of arrest for debt under all cir-
cumstances. But in this Bill, the power of imprisonment
was given in an indefinite manner. The Bill was one in
favour of the middle classes and tradesmen, againstthe
humblest part of the working classes. He was very much
disposed to think that in a Small Debts Court, there should
debtor'.
E Bell bfoordy establishing was agreed
only be a means of recovery agalnst the goods ei,hout .r ay
tpowerha.
h overiereshould he m
theperson osfoth e
egeneral
Courts for the recovery darnel] debts, In order to Judge