The Sun.
London, England, 1812-04-18 00:00:00

ORDERS IN COUNCIL.

Mr. WILBERFORCB presented two Petitions front
Hallamsbire and Sheffield, in Yorkshire, against
the OcderS in CounQil.L—Ordered to he on the
Table. • •

Sir C. IVIoanAuNT presented a Petition from Bir-
mingham against Ole Orders in Council.
Mr. BARING felt it to be-impossible, when such
Petitions ;.ere preSented from our most populous
manutaEtwing towns, to refrain from calling the at-
tention of the House to the subject. These, it was
to be observed, did not come from per'Sons who
were influenced, by a desire to obstruel the measures
of Government, but from persons who had not
come forward till their own ruin and the starving
state of those under them forced them to come to

that House, and state the fatal results of the sys-
tem which had of late unhappily been pursued.—
T!.e Hon. Gentleman proceeded to comment-on the
evils which—hod been brought on this country by
the stoppage of the trade with America, and on
the failure of our Orders in Council, which had
ended in our granting licences to permit the impr-
tation of nearly ail the manufaClures of tie enemy,
which it was our interest to prohibit. Hardly any
thing was excluded but wine and brandy, and the
only restrittion en the importation of their commo-
dities was, that 51. per ton in British manulatirtres
was to be exported in return for the imports. In
many instances, howev,A., for 51. exported, 50001.
might be imported. To palliate that conduct which
had led to these evils, it was now proposed to throw
open a part of the trade to India. This, however,
gave him but little consolation, as—he. feared its
effeat would be to endanger our Empire there, and
to ruin those %Clio endeavoured to avail themselves
of the

Mr. itiSE; thought this subject would be better
discussee when the papers which were ordered to be
produced were before them. The Hon. Gentle-
man had said, that, by our licenses we let in
_those
commodities of France which it was most our inte-
rest to prohibit. Now he would observe, that on
lawns which were permitted to be imported, there
was, a duty of Go per cent. ; and this, he thought,
was some protection. With respetit to laces, &c. he
would observe, that on their, importation no duties
we imposed by the last Administration, as it was
felt that they would have little or no effect, and in
this feeling their successors had participated. That
some of our manufaduring towns had suffered to a
cOnside.able event,. he had no doubt; hut whether
they had so suffered in consequence of the Orders
in Council, was a very diff.rent question. .
Sir C. MORDAUNT offered a leW 'observations on
the present state of Bhoeingliam, as when such-Bard
words as ruin end starvation were used, he thought
they ought not to go 'theies x ereti. The town was
not in that deplorable. state n which , it had been
snppbsed to be. As_a' proof of this, he "could .sta!e
that the tecrheing service it that neigiihohrhood
had been 'very slack. .He did not say it had not
stiff d ; he admitted Via: the.,people of Birmieg-
haor had endured :a. e,4ett deal,, and with great pa-
tience, but hitherto a weThi of employment had not
been very severely felt by the industrious, though
it was fee-ed it soon would be, as the stock in hand
was so great, that work would n .t long be found
Unless that stock was got _off. 11, however, much,
was felt here, much also was felt on the other side
of the Atlantic. An -American could not Shave
himself, nor catch his mice for want of out coal-
medities.. He concluded ohselviog, that if it were
shewn to the people of Birmaigham that the present
system ought to be preserved in, they would quietly
go to their gardens and dig potatoes.
Mr. BARING explained.
Mr. WHITBREAD, after some allusion to the late
disturbances, contrasted the concurrence of -the
Chancellor of the Exchequer last year, in the mo-
tion for a Commi, tee to inquire into the, cause of
these distresses, with the opposition which every
such motion meet with in the present Session. He
wished to know if it was his intention, now he saw
the disturbances which had broken out 'in the heart
of the country, to refer the subjed to a Committee;
to inquire if the 'statements made by the Com-
plainants were true, and if true, to inform them that,
for them there was nu relief. The Honourable
Bat onet would, notwithstanding all he had advanced,
give him leave to tell him, that to support our com-
mercial credit the House had in the last year con-
sented to the funding of (5,000,0001, of EXchequer
Bills, thegreater part of which he understood had
been appropriated to the assistance of our manufac-
turers. These bills. were to be repaid by instal-
ments. The first instalment had been paid.- The
second would come due to-morrow, and he ealled.
upon the Right Hon. Genktuan to say if he had
b:en told that it could not be paid ? thick' such.
circumstances,. did it not become him to ask if. the
Right Hon. Gentleman would refer the subject to.
a Committee to inquire if these evils result:el from
the Orders in Council ? TheeHonourable Baronet
was wrong in what he hail said respeCling America.
If America were shut, Birminghern. must be idle;
and 'it idle, its population most starve. 'America
then must be kept open, by her net essity, or byiour
policy, and latterly it has appeared to be our policy
to shut it. They had, however, been told, that_
America'could nut " catch her mice," and "could
not shave herself." The Hon. Baronet might have
told us, that till lately. America could not "'ride her
horse," " could not shoe her horse," " had not a nail
to drive ;" but he would find that the last orders from
America called for no nails, (though nails were for-
merly articles of prime necessity), having been
driven to cnanufaaure thetn for herself. Thus
would it be found in other things " if the present
system were persevered in ; thus would her menu-
fahlures increase and improve, to the annihilation of
our trade. The accounts which we daily read ef the
rising of the people at Sheffield, at Manchester, at
Leeds, and at Huddersfield, were such, that if they
came If om Ireland, it would be said tht:y were in a
state of rebellion, while from' their novelty in this
country, they seemed to be considered but of little
;importance. He hoped, however, that because they
were famished, they would not be treated with se-
verity, and he hoped, it a man wrote a temperate let-
ter calling on his fellows to apply to Parliament and
to the Prince Regent for relief, if 'to afford it were
possible,- that a treasonable intention to excite others
to violence would not be imputed to him. He was

surprised at the de;cription which had been given of
the liceitse4 granted. No two things could he more •
different than that which they !mu hi) de.,cribed
to be to-ptit, :'n„-that which he hat previous 4
derstoodAtiern to be. He concluded by expies.4ing .•
a holed that sumo inquiry info tiie subject would be

Sil; C. MORDAUNT aid Mr. Rose explained.
The CHANCELLOR. of the &CHEQUER 4J,d, he
did not rise to enter into any general discussion on
the Orders in Council ; but after what had passed, ,
he felt himself called on. to make a fewaobservations.
The Honourable Gentleman hid siated, that, the
petitions carne from persons who had an oppertu-
nit). of formieg their opinions by exp .ritnant, upon
the evils retsultitig from the Orders in Council ; now
this he apprehended they could not, for the point
upon which he and the Honourable Gentleman
were at iesue at the present tuomeet, was, whether
those evils proceeded from the Orders-in Council, or
from other causes'? It was true that three persons
were competent to state the pressure which was
felt in trade, but be knew not how they could de-
cide whether that pressure would have been greater
or less if the Orders in Council .had never existed.
Whether in tea the Berlin and Milan D..crees would .
have produced the mischief without them. He
would say, that not only our difficulties had not in-
creased since the adoption of these Oiders, bait that
the whole trade 'of the country was in a better state.
He was surprised to find the Hotionrable Gentle-
man's knowledge of trade so far overborne by his
zeal against the measures of: Government, as to say,
the Orders in Council were to prevent neutrals from
trading with the enemy. He would maintain that
the end was to Open all trade, even to France itself,
if France would trade with Great Britain. , France •'
had prohibited trade with Great Britain,. and Great
Britain had prohibited all trade to France, but what
should go through Great Britain. The result was a
pressure upon France, such as compelled her to open
`her ports„trithe trade of this country. He would
state that. that very system of licenses which,was re-
presented to be a departure from ther'Orders in
Councile was a. proof of, their efficacy and effeela—e
He agreedathat when the question of licenses was
beforeehe•House, this matter would be better dis-
cussed. AS to Are importation of wine and brandy,
they were obliged to-take .a considerable quantity of
sugar and coffee in return, and. with regard to laces,
'muslins, and other articles of the kind, they would
be brengLleite.-iliegally if there was , no allowance
granted. He was surprised that so much misinfore
mation. shoteld, exist with respect to the outeages eer-
petrated- tri alitThrent parts of the country, that they •
.he ascribed to the= Orders in Council, to
starvation, and, such causes. But was it owing to.
starvation that the mills were broken dolvn ? Was
Such. rnisconduet to be excused,.. defeoded, and .
palliated ? As to the town •frorn which this petiti- .
on was presented, they had heard the statement of
the
.Honeurable.Baronet, who hadeold them, that,
at the present moment, the want of employment
was net severely telt.. The Honourable Gentlemen
hadrecoiemended that the subject should be refer-
red to a Committee, but the House should reed-
led.that this was a case imolving. a great political
question, which it was
,not.the pract{ceof Parliament
to delegate to arty circumscribed Committee, but to
determine in a Committee of the whole -House. A
detailed examination of evidence did not appear to
hien to suit a subjeEt of that kind. He knew what
an effect the shutting of the American market must
have ; but would the Honourable Gentlemen state
whether they would repeal the Orders •in Council,
and what they expeeted from such a step ? There
was one time when Gentlemen thought that the
Berlin and Milan Decrees were done away, bat bat
time was past, no man who knew any thing of the
subjeCt would say so now. It was notified by France
herself that they should continue to operate ; that
they should be considered as the fundamental law of
the Continent until we abandoned our system of
blockade. There was no man in that House who
lamented the 'distresses that were felt more than he
did, but would any man say he was prepared to-give
np our maritime rights, by which Great Britain tied
'sen 'to power and 'Consequence ? Where this de-
claration on the part of 'France; with respeei to the
continuance.of his decrees, was kdo'ven in. America,
he was not Without a hope that America.would not
charge upon till's country an unnecessary strictness
in the measures to which site had resorted. But
whatever the ell'efd in Amerida might be, this coun-
try ought to knoW that..those decrees were in full
force now, and were to continue so until Great Bri-
tain should yield upehose privileges upon which her
prosperity was so prongly founded. The Honour-
able Gentleman had asked him, on the .-subjeCt of
Commercial Bills, whether he knew that the next
instalment would noebe paid ? It had been stated
to him thai Many of.those who were bound to pay
the instalment. would be distressed by being obliged
to do so ; that many were not sufficiently relieved
by conircercial, bills, but did not believe they would,
not be answered by the generality of those who
were bound to pay. If the Orders in Conned were
repealed before the Berlin and Milan Decrees, the
consequence. would be, that France would have her
neutral trade open with America, while weevere de-
nied the trade ot•the Coetinent ot, Etat ope. Unless
the 1-kuse was prepared to say that this would be
judicious, the present did not seem to him to be a
period in which it was possible to do away the Or-
ders in Council,.
Mr. BROUGHAM expressed hie surprise at the
spee.chel of the Vice President of the Board of Trade,
and the Chancellor Of the Exchequer, given at a
moment _When Petitions signed by so niany time-
s Inds and tens of thousands were presented to the
House. They had treated it as a nave question. He
remernbered,.when, two months ago, he had given
the Right HonaGentleman en opportunity of de--
tailktg his sentiments upon, this 'subje6t, that he was
referred to the returns of Mr. Irvine from the Cus-
tom-house Docks, and told, upon their authority,
that there 'was little_ or no tuisetay.e. He hoped the
House would not refuse to the people the poor sa-
t:staCtion of reasoning with them under their suffer-
ings, and inquiring into the causes by which those
sutferingS wee produced. It was not enough to give
them redebate for it.. The hardware tuannfaetoties
were carried on by about 70,000 persons, not per-
sons, .brought from the field, but men of skill, who
had undergone a regular apprenticeship. If these
men were sent .to recruit our army, or to till that
ground, that force would be irrecoverablidisbancled,
which was necessary to the working of the manufac.
tories. At, present the master InanufaCiurers kept

them working as little as they tonld at the reduced
waaes of 12s a-week, inateed of from 255. to 355.
l'nis was not confined. to Birmingham e in Leeds
and other places they would find thousands out of
employment. le Man Chester alone, the poor who
received relief from the parishes amouritedeo twen-
ty-five thousand' persons; One-fourth of tie popula
lion. As to the impropriety of allowing a Corn-
to;ttee to invire ieto the conitiel of alie existing
Gseernmere, he ‘A OUld'onlY Say that such a course
had teen presented by the appointment of the West
India Committee four or five years awl He con-
jured Ministeia to open their eyes to the conse-
quences of a war with America, and to review their
Orde.; in Council2'
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, he did not rise to dis-
cress the policy and expediency of the Orders in
Council, which would soon come ender the consi-
siderattoo of P,rliament ; that it had not come
sooner to the sanie extent, the Hon. Gentleman
must bear his portion of responsibility. He depree
cated the idea of calling'-the attention of the House
front-the tree ground Of the questiOn, and to give
an unpressiett 7m/toting- an inattervion in the Go-
vernment to the public misfortunes. His.. Right
Hon. Friend had not said there was no commercial
distress, but by compaiing the trade and manufac-
tures of the coun!ry with their state in former pc-.
;lads, had shewn that this evil was not so great as
it was represented. The cotton manufaeiory had
arisen to such• a state of prosperity, as to expo! tto
the amount of from 12. to 18 millions in one year.
The natural consequence of this was to bear on the
other exports. Was it fair to endeavour, to give_
!his creamy a dislike to the war, when the war
could not be prevented ; and was it not proper,
ith a view to obviating such a result, to shew
that the depression of trade did not exist to such
an extent as had been stated' Is He maintained
that our gain by America upon the surrender of the
Orders in Council, would be trifling in comparison
with our loss of the trade of the Continent, which
would follow such -a step. He believed, that the
impressions ow of doors were greatly exaggerated.
Many parts, he would allow, suffered ; but it was
chiefly owing to the. failure of the harvest, and not
to the Orders in Council, and he could tiever be-
lieve th it• the people nf this country were ao dead
to those maritime rights by which they were .ele-
va,ed to their present state, as ignorantly to surten,
der thorn to the enemy, or even to neutral nations.
The Berlin and Milan Decrees were the funeamen-
tal law-of-France, not to be departed from, until we
ilnauld abaridun Or Orders in Council, and what
was called the new blockade, which was the mea-
sure o: ,The late Mr., SecrefarrFox, adopted in the
year 1806. They were to be enforced against us as
log as we refused to recogni,e the system of an
armed neutrality. Such , was the spirit of her last
Decree., -He denied that there was any disiecli-
Oation on the part of Ministers to discuss the ques-
tion ; they had refused the Committee before, t hink-
ing. it to be unnecessary, but they were prepared to
meet the subject on its own grounds. It was not
by florid descrptions of distress that the cautery
could be carried through it difficulties. His Ma-
jesty's Ministers felt these difficulties as much as
any one, could feel them, but still they would not
determine to sacrifice its real interests, to any tem-
porary pressure; they atied upon more enlarged
views, fur the ultimate advantage and prosperity of
the empire.
Lord STANLEY observed that som_ething more was
due to the Petitioners titan merely to lay their Pe-
titions on the table ; they ought to be taken into
consideration ;' under this impression, he should
consider it to be his duty to bring theth to the con-
sideration of the House. So far from encouraging
the violent measures which bad been pursued in va-
rious parts of the country, he' strongly depre-
cated them. Conceiving that the Petitioners
ought to be heard, he gave notice that he should, on
Monday, the avh, submit a motion on the subjeti
Lord BINNING adverting to what had fallen from
an Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Whitbread) respecting
, the Commercial Loan, the payment on the' next in-
stalment bring due tomorrow, wished to state,
as Chairman of the Committee, that &at numbers
of the Sebscritos would have been glad that the day
of payment was further postponed but they were
)eady nevertheless.
Mr. WHITBREAD, in explanation,
:observed, he
had merely sated, that the Right Hon. Gentleman
had aefused to give the extension to the Subscribers.
But whether there was more ur less of distress he did
not know.

Mr. LYTTLETON wished to correa a wrong im-
pression which might have been made by some
statements on the Petition. He mir-hdouboed whe-
ther all the-manutacturers were employed: He knew
tri„t previous to the meeting a kind of censuj had
been taken of the number of mannfaeturers, and on-
the average 4-te:trly oite-half were out of.employ.---
It appeared also, that in some of the great mina-
factories one-third Were then employed; but in no
-were more than two-thirds employed.—
With respect to parochial relief there was no place
in -England where the poor were better off; there
were many friendly societies and clubs; from these
they received considerable benefits.. He under-
study, however, that, in the course of a few months
there would be out of employ 70,000 manufactu-
rers. He was aware that those who stated fa is of
this nature might be taxed with having ieflamrria.
tory designs---with want of. patriotism ; bUt the
statement was true. ,
General TARLETON attributed the distress in trade
to tie Orders in Council; the highest and the lowest,
and the richest and the poorest,. were equally ag-
grieved by them. He deprecated the manner in
which the Petitions had been received, in turning a
deaf ear to the complaints from all parts of the
country. He had expressed his feelings in respect
to the riots at Nottingham, and called for inquiry ;
but his call was disregarded, and what- was the con-
seqeence ? The spreading of those riots into other
Convinced of the necessity of inquiry,
be should support the motion of his Noble Friend
kLor,i S;antey) whenever it was brctight forward.
Mr. I.I•I4KRYAT- thoUght that attempts had been
made to infiame
,the minds of the manufaaurers
against ins Majeity's Ministers, by circulating a re-
port that the litenSes were' issued only for the
puri.ose Of increasing the fOrtunes of a few private
iirdi‘
The petition was laid on the table.