The Sun.
London, England, 1812-03-27 00:00:00

ADJOURNMENT VOR THE HOLIDAYS.

On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the Exl
CHE43l.lalt, it was ordelecl that the House, at its
rising, should adjourn to Tue,day se'unight.
GOLD COIN LL.

The Order of the Day having be,n read for the
second reading of the Gold Coin Bill,
The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER moved
that the Bill be now read a second time.
Mr. MORRIS declared, that retaining as he did
All his original objedions to the principle of the mea-
sure strengthened by its present shape, he could not
Consent to give a silent vote on the subjed. By
this Bill the House were about to give to paper cur-
rency the sitne effea in law as to the legal coin of
• the realm; that was, to make p)per as much a legal
tender as coin of the realm. He certainly was not
present at the former discussion on the Bill, but as
far as he understood it, he must consider that the
Bill made Bank notes to all intents and pnrposes,a
legal tender. It clid this without providing any ade-
quate. security for the prevention of forgery. It
did it without providing any adequate security
against an excessive issue on the part of the
Bank, which must lead to a still greater de-
predation of their paper, and to all the fatal con-.
sequences attendant on that depreciation. A forced
paper currency was unfortunately
,no new experi-
ment. It had been tried in ,other Stwes. But
never had it been adopted by any Government with-
out leading to national bankruptcy and to individual
misery, which the wind shuddered to contemplate.

He vtf6uicl tsti my that such must be the case in Eng•
land, because it had been the 'case in_ other coun-
trie.4 but this,he was sure, that when such strong
an ilugies existed, it was the solemn'. dirty.of the
Mime to pause, and to examine whether there was
such an essential :difference between the circum-
stance,: of England, and or the countries to which
be had alluded, as to remove all rational ground of
apprehension, that a similarcourse in England would
be followed by similar effeds. With respell to the
prevalence of forgeries, 'no precaation could afford
adequate prote&ion to the public against that evil.

It was true that the Bank had taken great pains on
the stabled. What they had done might be suffi-
cient for thee- own protedion ; on the notes' where
secret marks, of the nature of which the Bank alone
were informed, and the absence of which therefore
enabled them instantly to deted the forged notes;
when presented for payment. But the very circum-
stance of secresy deprived the individual holder of the
note of prote&ion against forgery; for how was he
to ascertain the authenticity of the note ? He felt
this subjed the more strongly, because he had hap-
pened to be iii the metropolis of another country, at
a time when there were great forgeries on the pa-
per circulation of that country. At the corner of
every street in Paris, there were offices for ascertain-
ing the genuineness of assignats. These offices were
called bureau de verificatiln. But 'the number •of
them defeated their °hied, for the secret by which
the forged assignats were detected was entrusted to
so many, that it was at length imparted to those
who committed the forgeries. It was not the
indi-
vidual loss that was so. great an evil, as the general
panic which the prevalence of forgery occasioned,
arid which attached distrust even to the genuine
paper, creating a geoeral alarm as to-the Whole cur-
rency. That the forget ies on the Bank of England
had been very extensive, would be proved by the
returns which were about to be laid 'on the table of
the House. How much More extensive would
they be whep Batik notes were made a legal ten-
der ? This was cue strong objeation which he had
to the before the H Another objection
was, that it provided no defence against an ex-
cessive issue of paper on the part of the Bank ; an
issue to which the Bank, when they found that
their Bills were to have no perio t of payment.,
might be attempted to an inde.hnite extent. Nur
could this evil of excessive issue be guarded'against
by requiring from the Bank regular returns of the
number of notes' issued' by them. The numerical
amount of notes in circulation 'was' not a sufficient
test of their excess. A very small excess 'might
produce considerable derangement in the country.
It was most unfitting that•the Bank should be left
to exercise their own discretion 'on this point : it
gave them too gleat a power". Without impeaching
their integrity he must say, that if was an engine
which they.,were not able to wield. The only sim-
ple and certain security against an excessive circula-
tion of paper was, the immediate convertibility of
that paper into specie at the pleasure of the holder,
He readily agreed With those who contended, that
things ought not to be left as they then were ; but
he could not agree with them, that the present Bill
was the measure best calculated to meet the exi-
gencies of the case. On a question of such im-
'portance, care ought. to have been taken to coile&
the aggregate wisioan of Parliament, in every way
in which it could be obtained. The House ought
to go into a Committee on the subject, in which
every topic conneded with it might be thoroughly
sifted,,from the delinerations of which a more ade-
quate remedy might rise for this great public griev-
ance. It might, perhaps,. appear in that Commit-
tee, that as the value of coin had been already raised
as far as tokens were concerned, m;ght be expe-
dient to raise gold' Coin ,in the same proportion,
and then the Bank need no longer be prohibited
from paying their notes in specie. A reference to
the history of ancient times would chew the imp-
hey of forcing any depreciated currency. In the.
reign of Edward the First, there were laws made
to compel farmers to bring their .corn to the
markets, and exchange it for the base curren-
t), of that period. Other devices were used to
give effed to that -base currency. The history of
those times, however, was most calamitous ; and
it had been truly said by L6rd Liverpool in his
Ttemise on the subjett, that 016 reformation of the
religion was not a greater boon than the reforma-
tion of the edit). All experinents of a similar na-
ture had tailed, and it had ever been found indis-
pensable to return to a gored currency.
Lord A. HAmttertm,iobserVing that the House
were about to make Bank notes a legal tender, at
his suggestion the Clerk read the 3d and 4th Reso-
lutions of the Committee of last -Session, by 'which
it was stated, "That Bauk notes' were equivalent
in public estimation to the legal coin- of the rerlin."
In his opinion it- would be a Most Palpable contra-
didion to have these recotded resolutions on the
Journals of the House, and then to pass a-Bill by
which 'they were completely falsified.
Sir J. NUWPdItT declared that this Bill was a fur-
thrr 'step on the road to ruin, and that the Hbese
Were travelling very fast aloug that path which had
led all nations who pursued it to destruation. Ad-
verting to the extension of the Bill to Ireland, he
contended that it went to vitiate many express con-
tracts in that country; and be
,strongly objected
;tisk') to the step having been taken without any pre-
vious inquiry into the state of the Batik of Leland.
Mr, D. GIDDY, in a tone of voice. which we re-
gret would allow us but very imperfectly to hear
him, expressed his opinion that the proposition,
that the present measure was fraught with great
danger to the State, was as demonstrable as any
proposition in abstract science. Still, however, as
he,kre.::w that the measure Would be generally ac-
ceptable to the country, he would not oppose it,
although he could by no means approve of it.
Mr: H. TIAORNTUN said, it appeared to him that
this Ball was not materially different from the for-
mer-, as it included Ireland, and therefore did away
that practice of having.two prices there. He had
thought the former Bill incomplete, as it did •not
extend to.lrcland ; but at the s nee time he felt,
that it it were extended to Ireland, the House would
be involved in inextricable difficulty. Leases might
have been recently granted, by virtue of which, a
tenant, instead of one hundred pounds in gold, paid
for his rent one hundred pounds in paper- This Bill
went to .do away the contrasts which had been
made,ot this description, and to ,say that the tenant
who paid one kindred ,and twenty pounds, should
now pay his landlord but one hundred poends.---:-

h

At present, the standard of Bank paper was suppos-
ed to be known, by the difference made there in the
prices' of articles, according as they were, paid for in
gold or paper. Do away this standard, and though
-the depreciation of Bank notes might be ascertained
bythe foieign exchanges, yet as there were twiny
Who had -not the means of knowing what'i hese
were, the loss of that standard to which he had al=
luded might occasion great confusion,', and rn!ke
things worse than they were at present. Sensibly
as be felt this, he was however willing to counte.
:lance the BA so rar as to let it go to a Commit-
,.
tee, in theihope that it might be there amended in
those parts which to him appeared obje;:tionable.

Lord CASTLEREAGH had felt there was cou.aidera
able difficulty in adopting this measure in England,
and he certainly felt that there was an increased
difficulty in extending it to Ireland. That difficulty
however had been excesl,ively. exaggerated as far as. "
related 'to Ireland, inasmuch as Gentlemen • had
spoken as if two prices had obtained all over that
country, and that therefore the House could not
pa,s he present Bill without interrupting t he contra is
which 'had been concheled there. This vieee of
the sebject was not correct. It was true the prate
rice of buying guineas was, more prevalent there
than in England, as it had not been forbid, but the
.House were deceived if they thought the contrails
in Ireland, between man and man, were generally
different from these made in England. It had-
been common there for a long dile to make them
with a view to payment in Irish Bank Notes. or in:
the general circulating medium of the country.--e
The only anomaly of importance was/that payment'
,had generally been made in gold in three of tour
counties in the north of Ireland. This pradice had'
however of late years beer.' cOnsiderahl) narrowed,
till at length it was only common to give gold in
payment of rent. There he admitted was a difficul
ty, as tile interest of the landlord or of the tenant,
must be in some degree sacrificed.
to be remembered, ehat for a king time after the
passing of the Bank Restriction Ad, the advantage
to the landlord in being paid in gold was not more
than two per cent. .Latterly, from the state of the
foreign exchanges, and from the measures deter-
mined on in that House, the price of. gold lead
risen so high; that at such a rate it could no longer
be procured. As by .the passing of this Bill the
landlord would lose his two per cent. (fairly ire could
'lever consider'himself entitled to more), it might
be argued. up to an ad of injustice toetards him ;
hut .when he (Lord Castlereagh) compared the e(-
tea of its operation 00 the landlord with the greater
benefit it would give the tenant, he would contend
that they ought not, to be deterred by local prejudices
from extending the Act to Ireland. Nut to do so
Would be to sacrifice the general interest of that
country to the usages of a few of its counties.
Mr. W. SMITH had no hope of seeing the objec-
tionable parts of I his Bill corretled in the Committee,
sail could not therefore let it go to a sec-md reading,
without entering his protest against the measure
altogether. After this all was passed, he contended
that to make Bank paper a legal tender. would pro-
duee no pradical difference. It the present system
'were persevered in, he felt confident that it must end
in national bankruptcy. The7next step taken wool,'
be to make Bank paper a legal tender, and if this
had no effed; why then all persons must be forced
to bring their commodities to market at fixEd.prices,
or they must endeavour to return to that point Item
which they had wandered for some ye its, and fo
which they bad at present •rimeh greater facilities
for returning, than they would have if things were
suffered to go on till the crisis he had described had
actually arrived. He contended the Bank issues
ought not to be left to the Dire&ors of the Bankeas,
however wise and honest those who were now in
that situation migrit be; what security could be given
that , those would be so who might fill their
.places
twenty, or thirty years hence. He hod
been -told that the Bank capital had not been
increased, and that On the same property .on
which they had formerly issued their . notes to
the amount of 13,000,0001. 'they now made issues
amounting to from 22 to 24,000,0001. Who had
the profit on this, and who ought to have it ? A
profit, he conceived, there must be, and to whom
but the public ought that profit to go ? Suppose
the Bank should increase its issues to double their
present amount—suppose, without an increase of
capital, they should be raised to 40,000,0001.—0 n
such an issue, at the common rate of interest, there
must be a'erofit Of 2,000,0001. annually: Would
it he reasonable, that the B ink should have this,
standing in their present situation with Government
and with the public ? He wished to know if Go-
vernment would guarantee the payment of • their
notes ?. If they would not, they ought not to make
• them a legal tender. With respect to Ireland, he
wished to know if the Legislature were to guarantee
the payment of the notes of the Irish Bank ? If
they would not, it would be an acrof violence 'to the
people to force (hero to take them. It they did
guarantee the payment of them, they did it without
baying any document • before them, which could
furnish - any- thing like a Parliamentary ground for
doing so.
Mr. D. GIDDY explained-.
Mr. W. POLE said, he should not go into the eer
neral question, but confine himself to that part of it
which related to Ireland. He had collected, net
only in •this discussion, but in all those -that had
taken place upon the subject last Session, that the
measure then adopted had met. with the general ep-.
probation of the House, and that it' was looked on
with a favourable eye in the country, It it was.
true that this measure had been resorted to for the
protedion of the subject, and that it had effected
that obje&, was it not' natural that he should wish
to extend it to Ireland. The only reason why it
had not been extended (what country last Session,
had been justly stated by his Noble Friend (Lord
Castlereagh). It arose from the anomaly existing
in that country, which rendered it necessary to at.
low- time for investigation and for learning the
actual state of the case. This -anomaly, in having
two prices, one for gold and the other for paper, did
not, however,' extend so far as was supposed. It
was confined, as the Noble Lord had stated, to part
of one province out of the four into which Ireland
was divided. His Noble Friend had also fairly ex-
plained the nature.of the difference arising out of the
2 per cent. formerly paid for the purchase of guineas
by the tenant ; but the
.original cause might not,
ethaps, he so generally known. It arose from the
weavers having, for some 'reason or other, refused,
the establishment of the Bank of Ire.

land, to take their notes in payment for webs.
This rendered it necessary for landlords to guard
themselves by the adoption of the prakice in qutia-
lion, and the traffic in guineas had gone on tilt the
price of gold becanie so mulch higher, in comparison
with paper, t:-..at the evil remedied itself, and the
prv'sice was• altogether abolished, except what ie-
m?ined hot •=een landlords and tenants The exae-
, tionof cold for rent had, of late, become so crying
nn-evil, that if it had not been for the measure of
Lst Session, and the *sped held out, that it
would snon be extended to Ireland, they would
}cave heard such a cry from the North, to protet
the tenant against the la..dlord, that no Government
could resist it.
they be, if they (the Irish tenantry) were exposed
to the caprice of any avaricious landl Id, while in
England all classes of persons were protected by the
operation of this la The people of Ireland would,
under such circumStaeCe,,, naturally say, when.one
solitary case occurred in England of a landlord's
wishing to exact this mode of payment, the legisla-
ture, as it were, by acclamation, hastened to extend
their prateetion, while they left the people of Ireland
to suffer, as they now did; in many parts of the. North.
He would not now inquire, • whether the measure
were Tight and politic'; but if it was thought right
and politic in this country, he deManded it equally
for lielarid. He did not wish to disguise the fa6t,
that it would be an inconvenience on landlords; who
bad let their lands, to be paid in gold, and he would
be ready to lend himself to any-remedy that rrneht
be proposed to die iritere,,ts of this
class, who were, however, only an exception to the
general rule. The inconvenience, trio, it go& to be
recollemed, would be nothing, when compared with
the evils remedied. He had adersrood an Honour-
able Gentlema'n (Mr. Smith), to insinuate some
, Suspicions against *the' Bank of,
.Ireland. ( here there
was a crj of ho, no.)' 'Was any insinuation of that
kind intended, or not ? (Me Smith said not.) Then
fie would not- Press the subjea, but conclude, by
saying, diat' he would be as ready to guarantee the
Batik of Irchtnd as 'the Bank uf England. There
&A not exist the sl,glitest suspicion against- it ;. and
he was sure the honourat,le men who condu6ted
its direelfen, Would, at all times, be ready and wil-
ling to Stibruit to The striCiest.examinat ion and scru-
tiny the Government or the'House should think
proper to institute*. ,
Mr. C. SMITH disclaimed any intention of.
sthrowing out any insinuation against the Bank of
Ireland.
Mr. W. POLE said, that in Ireland the people
took Bank of Ireland Notes with precisely the same
confidence that they did thuse of the Benk of Eng-
land. •

Mr.-GILES spoke against the Bill. Frdm the
manner in which the Right Hon. Gentleman spoke
of demanding it for the protection of the people of
Ireland, he stmest thought he was speaking of the
Habeas Corpus Ael, or of sonic measure on which,
the liberty of the people depended. _ He thought it
would be better to make Bank paper a legal tender
et one •, than to pass- the present Bill, and would
therefore oppose it in all its stages.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, if the
last Speaker looker looked to %Nett might be the
consequences of leaving the tenantry unprotected
against !hely landlords, he would find this 14 3S a mea-
sure to protect their liberty. 'What had been said
of this country being in the road to ruin was not
reculiar to the present state of things, as the same
ruin had been predicted at the time of the passing of
tie Bank Restriction Act; and predicted; he trusted,
wee as falsely as it was teen. When it was said
that the prohabli ty. of this niite was to be infei red by
lookiegeto what had taken place in, other countries
which had hae recourse to similar measures to sus-
tam their credit, he would con'end that t e never
was an instance! of a country being so ruined, whose
kituaijon bore the slightest resemblance or analogy
to the present situation ofehis country, with respect
to its papeecirculatione There was no comparison
,bet %Ten the assignats of Fiance and the Bank notes
of England, as the assignats in the first or second,
year alter they made their. appearance, exceeded our
greatest issues so far, that, mueiplied by hundreds or
by thousands, our notes woted hardly stand on a
level with the assignate We had, the singular fact
of 'a B'ink paper which bed. not since the passing of
the Back *Restriction Act been convertible into gold,
yet still possessed publtc confidence. But the
Honour.ble Gentleman had saideAshe present Di-
rectors' of the Bank were wise and honest, they
might not be sepeeeded by persons equally, entitled
to puleic ceefidence. He would answer, the su-
perintendance of Parliament would mill be coulee-
t to guard agaiest any danger thence arising..-._
lied they myeresson to think the issues of the Bank
tee! letiterto been larger than were necessary, un-
der .e.xistteg circumstances 'And had they not
seen, that sinee the passing of' the Act list year,
weich, it vas said., would cause the issues of the
hank to be larger than before, that those issues were
absolutely diminished ? . Was it probable, that_
al: at once, in the course of a recess, these issues
swould be enlarged to an indefinite extent ? Surely
tine; and if it was not done in a recess, Parliament
would have an oppoituney of checking the evil.
No instance could be given of an issue having been
made in any one year, which nineunted to more
than one-, hid of the money paid into the Exche-
quer. • What danger from such an issue could be
apprehended ? It then no' instance_ could be pro-
duced of a country having been ruined with a paper
circul ition so limited and restricted in its issues, it
eves all idle declamation to say on such grounds that
ties country was on the road to ruin. He did nut
believe the present measure would tend to, increase
t. e number of forgeries.: From. the account before
them given by the Bank, it appeared that the for-
geries for the last eleven yeks,- had not annually
ai%ei,fged mote than ten tlibusarid pounds. Of these
forgeries, it -was to be observed, nervy. were forge-
ries of foreign' notes, Which were, discovered as soon
teoderedeaed sent .6ut.ot. ihkcOtintry. It was true,
0,0001.,n,:righ.1 appt•ar a larwl sum, but it was not
a-large eenneA.hencbtriliaeect with the total amount
ltd. our issues, which were from 22 to 23,000,0001.
These forge'ries, could state,', would be found
not .to be more ethen the forgeries of gold and
silver had,- uspelly been, when they .were more
geeeedle cireulatingemediuni ,of theecountry.
1-4;eyeuld,Sue no gmuteds Int apprehending -min,: but

he thought if Any itthig Cbutd ruin the tan'k, it
would be their receiving and ading on the remedies
proposed by Gentlemen opposite, while the pre-
sent measure would at least go to put the dvil fa-
ther off:
Mr. Moths explained.

Mr. PoNsoNBY was frrmly convinced that the
present measure, instead of being.caleulated to pro-
mote the interests of the country, would be most-
injurious in its consequences. Adverting to what
had been said of the fallacy of those prediEtions which
had been made, of the approaching ruin of this
country, he admitted that some persons might ex,
press themselves in too strung a ,manner, but at the
same time repeated various piediclions .which had
been made respecting the resumption of .cash pay-
ments at the Bank, and the Foreign Exchanges of
this country, and inquired who in those instances
had been right ? The Right [Ton. Gentleman he be-
lieved to be pretty near right in his assertion te-
speaing the difference between the paper issues of
:this country and those.of other nations, and the re-
sult was, that our progress towards ruin was slower
than theirs had been, but to that we must ultimate-
ly come, if that progress were continued. It was-
inevitable if_ the evil were not arrested. This could
only be brought about by a cessation of that system
which the Right Hon, Gentleman 'recommended as
essential to the prosperity of the country. the buy-
ing and selling of gold in Dublin, was as regular as
the buying and selling of broad cloth, and was win-,
cipally purchased for the use of this country. From .
this country, he believed a great quantity was tran-
sported ; a great quantity he also believed was
hoarded. Oil the very day he sailed for London
last, he saw a country woman in a shop receive five
shillings and sixpence, a piece premium on guineas,
and on her departure the shopkeeper observed, that
if she had known their value, she would have got
six. shillings.. 'lt would, .he thought, be better
to let things stand as ;they wetter, than agree
to this &11. As he understood the Bill, its oi.era-
tion would stand he sued a debtor, and
was offered by that debtor Bank of grigland -Rotes;
be must take them, or else pay the Costs of suit ;
but if he dernAnded on a bond, there was no coin-
pul;ion. Could any one imagine a greater absur.-
dity,? But what, were the circumstances which ren-
dered the proposed measure necessary ?-116 knew,
of none. Wi,b tie e%ception of the petition 'pre-
sented.by the Noble Lord from tie town of Bel-
fast, which he supposed, was.principally frorn
,com-
mercial nelsons, there was no application in its fa-
vour. The evils of the Bill would be felt to a
greater-degree in Ireland than' English Gentlemen
could- suppose, and• would press particularly on those
who held perpetual interests, which were, cinema-
Mt) in this country. It would go to deprive such.
people of their property, to compel them to receive
depreciated paper. He was sure when it went into
a Committee, the subje6t would be found to in-
volve great complexity, inn icacy, and injustice,
much greater than the British part of the House
had any notion of. He objected to the principle of
the Bill ; he was told that it was popular, but was
sure it would not be so in Ireland, and whether po-
pular or nor„, conceiving it to be pernicious,. he
should oppose it.

Mr. MARMOT said, .the operation of the former
Bill was to banish all the specie from- Ireland. It
uas said, ibis was not making Bank notes a legal
tender, but he would tell them what in the Opinion
of ti►is great city .it was doing, it was m iking it a
legal tender, with the addition of a law suit'by way
of bonus. The result of this Bill would be, that the
specie would be almost bani.shed from tl►e country
we had already thrown it into the hands of Jews
and smugglers, who sent it abroad, and the only
way of preventing such effeas was to permit a fair
competition a home. The Bank had raised the dol-
lar to five shillings, and from thence to five shillings
and sixpence, and if they did nut 'shot-11y raise it to
six shillings, such was the effea of the pres,:nt sys-
tem, that they would disappear, and we Should never
see their faces more. But it was said, that nobody'
co:1141 produce 'Whetter scheme ; he thought a better
could be produced;. let the Bank pay the:r creditors
at a rate between the former pr ce'of gold-and the
price of. the present day. No man could be Mole
aware of the advantage of paper credit than he was ;
it served all the purp ses of domestic currenu, but
he wished to see a strict adherence to all the princi-
ples by which paper credit could alone be properly
supported.

. .
Lord CASTLEREAGH (in explanation)- said,' that
he had never stated there were guineas enough in
Ireland to answer all purpo,es, but on the contrary,
had nientioned, that it the present state' of things
did not crave, the interference of Parliament would
become necessary. . . . .
'lite House
_then divided,
,
For the Motion . . 6r
Against it. , . 10
'Majority —45
. -

The Bill was then read a second time.

On being re-admitted, we. found Mr. W. Smtvt
on his legs, reading over the titles of several Arts of
Parliament, relative to the South Sea Company, and
terminating with a. provision that the Deputy Gover-
nor shouln nut leate ti king&m. He would lease
the application to the House.
The CHANCELLOR. of. the EXCHEQUER said, the
Hon. Gentleman would have saved himself much
trouble, and the House much time, by barely stating
that. the Bank of England was something like• the
South Sea Company.
Mr. SMITH said he .he did not entertain the
smallest doubt of the Bank of England.
Mr. THORNTON (Member for Surrey) stated,
that he was certain the Hon. Gent.• could not mean
to compare the present situation of the Bank of Eng-
land.,to that .of the &mill Sea Company, between
the years 1704 and 1720. Neither'could he, 'upon
cool reflection, deem• it necessary that the notes of
the 'Bank of the England should be 'guaranteed by
Parliament. Such a measure had been pro Posed in
the Committee that sat upon the affairs of the Bank
in 1797, but was -deemed unnecessary,- as, at ,the
sltte moment, the Brtakers and Merchants of Lon-
don assembled on the occasion, had come to the
resolution of receiving and supporting the credit of
Banik notes to-the utmost of their power. 'There was
another very important reason which rendered this
guarantee unnecessary; -the, consideration that the
empire at
„large was security to the Bank for' is-
sues made to the public to a larger amount than