The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-15 00:00:00

this order of mener, ..,t,,117,ii,Rti*,.41.4ar-iNvand Learned
Gentleman prop tfitTr, ,Ty ~
~., , ~,...\,. . e object of
the Legislature 1-I it 2,.:twimAlita4,2tq ppress that
order. Amin, his'; fin ._. tit time to
, , ... ..• .
bring forwards o,,',l,,spis*-,13-..- ' ermeny and
eFortanir:ecexioannd%eiv,ehn crktr,4o-4-117e.:A: - of norn-e was
opposing new obsacult444.3rittra'-
144... z-
yty emrsiizulaisti(,(inusoitne
iittnhitabeni,vc:juisffiGesvneTtTentornthreci—R:nitin.
4,10f.:,Mr:n Cltrorcs interfered with.
fsithful to ihei tshtaist:tnhdatutthheer gtplen,ttyiiist;)
had
was
discussion.wt:.e improved editionps---ab(l'il:1
tdth:fseinnli;shrsuuerilicrhn,e, ofll a
n 1 .
it,t(v,:rnirvveeds biisicihoti,:itrhoemcthhuericrhs:,deesc,:rheir,iitebraet
communicate PFrirn,tenti:nin
(I tir,isini:rrt6ell' absabieadriirwil itt:l;';‘til,te
forth in a hook lately publisnr.bd''lsr;
Ilwrrrthyltiheewaatstesuotirtor.ur Dtlri!nwg!„rdw,e;eorntliblwyb:
isht
Lohf
eefavre,r3h,
an:, intere,ted In
attached to the Bible=-
not
consider that )—as to con-
as the strung bulwark of the glory %ohrmf ..,,orf,graintd4.e_st(atintelaqini,,
hear.) Such a mew :tare as thatr;
'sec' coal.] not he
pasied into a la* consisteroly riqr.
not to
the Church of Ergivid, which ~,,'s the (xi=trirce of
as she Church uf lti.me c.,litintt„.odt .score in long
the Noble Lord at the head of the
t:. arise cur,
which, coating trom such a Mall, deserved
i forget the dying words of his anuitut.ll"nr
eonsi-•
dlred prophetic—" not to assist the progress of if,
Tht- resistance of Popery Villa one o; the greatest 'Per.)"."
on% eta
of his - life; and he called open oh. 14-I,•iji
..
G.tver, Ile i'r,7l,,rtd
Lord to act in the spirit of his dlastvous strict stor. a,.,1
to resist any 'lather me:.sures which had rot- clot it otjcci,
the degiath,tiol, of the Church of Lug anti, the hurn;iia-
lion ot Protest:anti:lTh and the final as,cndancy of the
It“cifin Cathol-e relig:nl;s—(l{car.) ELter'aillini2: the"
%leas, he felt he should 1,-,11,
ill dischsrge his duty if he
did not move, as an amendOents that the House should
resolve itself into a Committee OD :he Bill this day six
months.

Mr. LAW seconded the motion. .„
The Earl of ARUNDEL and SU said that the
RRI:A
Church of Rome had been accused of pssocptiou ; he
was not prepared to deny that persecution bad been
many times exercised by members of that Church—
in fact he admitted that the Church of- Rome
had persecuted, but those acts were to be estiitlated
by the spirit of the times in which they occurrei ;
and he might point to the Old Testament as furnishing
some authority for persecution. Hon. Gentlemen were
aware that he alluded to the wars waged by the Israelites
against those nations who held possession of the pro-
mised land. Previous to the 16th century the whole of
Western Europe was of one faith—heresies had arisen
from the commencement of the Church of Christ, bat at
that period the whole relations of society were
overset by the Reformation, and a number of heresies
sprung ur. And here he would observe that there was
a great difference between a heretic and a member of
a heresy. A heretic was one who once belonged to the
faith of Christ, and who seceded ; but a member
of a heresy was looked upon with a much
more lenient eye by the Church ; he was consi.
dared by no means guilty in the same degree. He
wished to argue the futility of throwing any resttictions
in the way of a sincere believer by other than
legitimate means. His Honourable Friend had said
that the Church of Rome was antagonistic
to Protestantism.—(Hear, hear.) So it was, and so it
ever would be, until Protestantism was extinct.—(lroni-
cal cheers.) The struggle would continue, and would
last, and other churches would arise long after the
Church of England had passed away and was forgotten.
Mr. PLUMPTRE said that the Noble Lord had stated
very plainly that the contest was going on of Popery
i
against Protestantism, and that t would and should go
on until the latter Church bad become extinguished ;
he , stated such to be his intention, and such
to be that of his Church. Now be (Mr. Plumptre) ob-
jected to the present Bill, because he believed it had for
its object the same intention. He thanked the Noble
Lord for speaking so platnly; it was what they lamented,
that they did not knew where to find their
enemies. tor hey assumed the attitude t:f war exactly at

stuheiteindorbeeinrt
cothnavtentihe
aspur-
posee t
enyce.feltHtel-.3
of his Church was to continue and maintain the
etio. their
down
mpotwh•ear,
tehr
struggle until Protestantism was for ever extinguished.
He would tell him that the Protestants of this country
were a prep • red to ine,-t those words with others of a
directly opposite character.—(Hear, hear) He agreed
with his Hun. Friend the Member for the University
of Oxford, that nothing could be more painful
to him than to say an 3 thing which might wound the
feelings of any Member; but they must not refrain
from speaking the truth from any such fear, and it
became them not to remain silent when they heard
the declaration which had been just uttered,—(Hear.)
He could not agree with the Noble Lord, that Protes-
tantism would become extinct, or that the Church of
Rome would triumph over it. He felt so far from that,
that Protestantism was founded on a rock; but he
regretted that the present Bill would revive the
struggle, as it' would no doubt tend to promote the inte-
rests of the Church of Rome. He would :oppose the
Bill, and every other measure of the same character,
which went to destroy or endanger the Protestant
truth or the Protestant Church. If he spoke
warmly on the question, he at least spoke honestly,
and while /he differed with Honourable Members on
the matter, he did so with the kindest feelings. It was
not on personal grounds that he opposed the measure,
but because he considered it based on a bad principle.
Lord 11. VANE said the lion. Member who had
last addressed the House seemed to have wandered a idely
f run the subject. If any one were to read the Bill, a ith the
antendmints now propo•itti by the Holt. Member ter
Kinsale, he could tot sae how it was po;sible to take
such a course in the debate. lie considered the H.,r).

%leather who had just sat down had misrepresented, or
at east rei.uriderstood, the observations which had fallen
from the Nub:e Lord (Arundel), though he (Lord
fl. Vane) must at the same time observe that the
sentiments which that Noble Lord had uttEred were not
his. He did not think that the Church of Rome would
succeed over the Protestant Church, and that they both
would become one. This, he was persuaded, was &so
the opinion of the great body of the people of this
country. Still, he thought the Honourable Member
(Mr. Plumptre) had misunderstood the argument
employed by his Noble Friend. The Hen. Member had
alleged that the Noble Lord supported persecution
because he hal referred to certain passages in the Old
Testament, and applied to a differ. nt order of things,
which justified it ; and that therefore the Roman
Catholic Church was justified in doing the same
thing. Now, he (Lord H. Vane) considered this not to
be the opinion of the Noble Lord, but that he meant to
say, that in bygone days persecution generally prevailed
and pervaded the, conduct of all religious sects and
opinions. Toleration, in fact, had not been understood
or practised till within the last century and a half.
But his Noble Friend adjured persecution now, and only
expected that by the prevalence of opinion his
Church would become triumphant. He (Lord 11. Vane),
however, was of a totally different opinion. The Bill,
said the Hon. Member for Kent (Mr. Plumptre), would
change the whole character of the population. He
objected to it because it would unprotestantise
the country. In support of that opinion, he had given
no reasons, had advanced no arguments, but be con-
sidered it would do so. The Hon. Member had also re-
ferred to the danger of permitting the Jesuits to come
into the country, calling the attention of the
House to the troceedings of that body abroad
during the last fifty years. He deduces
from that great danger to the Protestant faith. Now
he (Lord H. Vane) would observe, that at present
Jesuits did come into the country, though the Catholic
Emancipation Act expr-ssly forbad them. Practically
the law was of no effect, the spirit of the age was
against penal enactments, on account of religious be-
lief. The Bill as amended, by its provisions tor the
registration of all those belonging to monasic orders,
would be quite suffice ut fir ill us. ful purposes. If
they were to go on the policy recommentie,t by the Hun.
Member, they ought to rescind and repeal all the laws
to advance religious liberty pa-sed in the last 30 years.
He (Lord H. Vane) could not see what. object was
gained by hatritg laws on the statute b. ok which
could not be enforced, and which still contai ed a stigma
on a particular fAith. But the Hon. Member
had objected to the repeal of the 30th Charles 11. on the
gnound that it would affect the Bill of Rights. If
that really were so, nothing could be more easy than
to introduce a clause into the present Bill,
declaring that the Bill of Rights should not
be affected by it. This would obviate at once
the difficulty. He had been induced to rise and take
part in the debate because of the unfortunate turn which
it had assumed. That House was a place, least of all
places, for theological discussions, and they sho-uld avoid
all such allusions in their discussions. The whole—the
real—question they had to consider was the removal
of certain civil disabilities which the Bill proposed.
This Bill had been modified to meet the views of several
Hon. Members, and especially of the Right Hon.
Baronet the Member for Tarnworth. He was quite free
to confess, that the public exhibition of pro-
cessions, through the streets of a manufactur-
ing town especially, might to many persons prove
a stumbling-block, and that the clauses, therefore,
which authorised these processions through the different
parts of England were inconsistent with the general
character of the Bill itself. Believing this, he was
sincerely rejoiced to hear a declaration to that effect from
the lion. Member for Kilkenny, and rejoiced that that
Hon. Member had so decidedly expressed his opinion on
this subject. But, as his Honourable Friend had con-
sented to remove this objection, he could not at all
see that any danger whatever could arise to the Protes-
tantism of this country from the passing of the Bill. The
object of the Bill, as it appeared to him, was simply to
obtain an equality of private position for the professors
of the two religions, and by the expunging of the objec-
tionable clauses, the only danger that could have been
apprehended had been averted.
Mr. SPOONER rose to say only a few, a very few
words, with a view to set the Hon. Member for Ken-
dal right, as to .what had fallen from the Noble Lord
opposite (the Earl of Arundel and Surrey). At the com-
mencement of his observations that Noble Lord had
expressly stated that he deprecated persecution in any
shape, and had, in the course of the earlier
portion of his remarks, expressly stated that,
in his opinion, nothing whatever could justify
persecution. Yet, notwithstanding all this, the
Noble Lord, towards the conclutiou of his speech, had
said that there were certain passages in the Old Testa-
ment which give reason to suppose that under peculiar
circumstances it would be countenanced by the Al•
mighty.—(Cries of " No, no.")
The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY begged to
correct the Hon. Member. Ile had never attempted in
any way to justify persecution, or to say that under itdZ
circumstances it was to be resorted to. What be had
endeavoured to represent when alluding to the passages
of the Old Testament was, that the contest which had
been going on, and which must continue to 014
be-
tween
the Roman Catholic and the Protestant Churches,
Was one_ entirely of a theological
.character, and