The Sun.
London, England, 1847-05-04 00:00:00

THE' SUN, LONDON, - TUESDAY EVENING, MAY 4, 1.847.

had intended to enjoy happiness and prosperity, as they
had guaranteed that they should enjoy equal independence
however much they might regret her unhappy condition,
still it was not for England, or any other of the protect-
ing powers, to prescribe to the Greek authorities what
should be their measures, or what the nature of its ad-
ministration.—(Hear, hear.) In 1833, a treaty was con-
cluded, by which the three Powers undertook to gua-
rantee 60,000,000 of francs, and power guaranteeing to
contribute one-third of the entire eum ; and therefore
this country was answerable for one per cent of the
sinking fund upon 20,000,000 of francs ; but, in order to
provide against that, the interest of the sinking fund,
being necessarily thrown on the guaranteeing powers,
care was taken in the wording of that treaty that the in-
terest and sinking fund should be the principal, to which in
the first instance, and before any other expenditure, the
revenue of Greece should be applied. The treaty cx•
pressly specified that the first purpose to which the
revenue of Greece should be applied, should be to pay
the interest and the sinking fund, before applied to any
other purpose, and that the representatives of the three
powers at Athens, should have the power to watch over
the execution of this agreement. lie lamented, however,
to say, that that engagement had been overlooked—no,
not overlooked—set at nought, as the papers which the
Noble Lord had moved for would show. They would
also show that from 1843 up to the present time
200,0001. had been advanced by this country to Greece.
(Hear, hear.) If these advances had been made
during a period, whilst the Greek States were in a state
of poverty—such a state of poverty as to prevent
them from paying Who interest upon its
debt —if she was in . such a state of
prostration as to render her progress almost impossible,
he had no doubt that the same kind and generous feel-
ings which led the British nation to sanction the grant
in the first instance, and to lend its aid to support and
maintain that country would have led them to .adopt a
course from which we could have derived no direct in-
terest ; but if it appeared that this charge had been
thrown unnecessarily upon this country, and if it ap-
peared, as he thought it did, that the 46,0001. which
they had paid annually to Greece enabled the Greek
Administration to carry on a system of pecu-
lation and corruption—(Hear, hear)—and not for
any real interest of Greece, he thought it
would become the duty of those intrusted with the
Government and the interests of this country to make
due opposition to .the Greek Government to pay their
own interest on their own loan.—(Hear; hear,) With
those generous feelings which this House and the country
must ever maintain towards a nation with which so
many recollections were bound- Up, he was sure the
House would approve of the Government not pr'oceed•
ing for the whole of the arrears, but in calling upon the
Greek Government to pay the last instalment of 23,0001.
due in March, and for making a fair proposition for the
payment of the instalments as they became due. He
was sure the House would think her Majesty's Govern-
ment would, in doing this, not be acting in a way which
was inconsistent between a protectingand a protected state.
As he said before with respect to the other portions of
the Noble Lord's statement, that although the Govern-
ment deeply regretted the state of things which existed,
yet at the same time thy felt that the British Govern-
ment had not sufficient grounds to stand upon, or justify
them in dictating to the Greek Minister as to what should
be the course pursued by that Government. And as re-
garded that topic of foreign influence, he was sorry to
say that it had gone on too far in Greece. He could not
understand what was the meaning of English, French,
and Russian parties, in that country. If the .Minister of
Greece were to send him a paper with his name signed
at the bottom of it and said, " write above my name any
conditions you please, guaranteeing to England any ad-
vantages you may desire, and behold my signature as
your guarantee that they shall be fulfilled, his (Lord
Palmerston's) answer would be, take back your paper,
put it in the fire; we want nothing from you but that you
should govern your country as we endeavour to govern
ours, make your nation happy, prosperous, and contented,
the only thing which we ask from you, is pay the inter-
est of our money.—(Laughter.) He could not imagine
why such a great value was attached in France to having
the Greek Minister, the head of the French party, he
could not see what particular object was to be accom-
plished by it, but if the French Minister valued it, he
could see no reason that they should have a feeling of
jealousy upo❑ the subject. He, as the organ of her Ma-
jesty's Government, expressed the ardent wish of that
Government that Greece should be well governed, and
while they might retain their own opinion as to the ca-
pabilities of her different statesmen, to well-govern her,
they could not interfere or dictate terms to their minis-
ter, as that would violate the independence of
the country ; and while they disclaimed any wish to
create what was termed a British party, yet he must do
justice to "those eminent and distinguished men who bore
that title, that the sense in which they were called the
British party was because they believed that the British
Government sincerely desired the happiness of their
country, but that if they asked them .to do anything
inimical to their interests or derogatory to their honour,
they would spurn the thought, and prove themselves
Greeks and Greeks alone.—(Cheers.) He was ready
to agree to the return, and he would have no objection
to a motion on the subject if the Noble Lord should

ROUSE OF COMMONS, May 3.
THE GREEK LOAN.
to 13141"11_0 order of the day being read for going into a
tar :itte of Supply,
teen u• MANNERS rose to move for a return of all
et tcrs paid by Great Britain on account of the interest
III:1.G° reek loan, up to the Ist day of January, 1847.
14iiet.'\,..ble Lord after glancing at the conditions on
orthi:ir-mgland had guaranteed to pay interest on a part
and tilVana, and contending that they had been violated,
I)roce„,,l country absolved from continuing the payments,
ecol' 'led to read a lengthy report on the subject from
brstit:lltittee appointed by the French Chambers to in-
to s e the subject, and to report upon it. He went
had 43: that the unworthy Finance Minister of Greece
been "stgned his trust, and
baseslthough his conduct bad
Were Proved to have been in the extreme, yet they
tht told by this Committee of the Chamber of France
they gave their entire confidence to such a
ntlater. He (Lord J. Manners) had no wish whatever
us ringing forward this motion, to cast any imputation on
•rme diplomacy of this country, or to ask the Noble
d-aord (Palmerston) to take any hasty course to-
Wards France, or towards the Government of King
Otho. He was willing to leave the whole matter in his
hands—to his own discretion. He did not ask him to
make any threats or menaces towards Greece, to obtain
the payment of the loan which England had advanced ;
but what he asked the House to do was this—to give an
impression of opinion, on the determination to which
the Chamber of France had come, to support our
_•qatnister in whatever part of the world he might have
. r_act on the part of his country ; and to act with pru-
`l4ce and with due regard to the liberties of the people
Ig Greece. He asked the House to express an opinion
u:ourable to the independence of the people of that
—ll%Ppy country.
' toLord PALMERSTON said, it was necessary for him
th 'state, in the first place, that he had no objection to
e production of the papers fur which the Noble Lord
Ivatitisr"red• He had no wish to make an address,
trio-,"' might interfere with the business which was
the'e Properly the business of the evening ; but at
enter Proper time he should feel happy to
Vi more fully into the merits of the
vie_e, question at issue. With regard to the general
r." the
Noble Lord had taken of the affairs of Greece,
Say. that he, in a great degree, concurred with
r.; The House well knew that the independence of
ane Ofee Was achieved by, the interposition of England
France and Russia—art interposition which was
er thelsed after a struggle of five or six years between
e G
ter reek nation and the Turkish Government—an in-
:ark% wrung from the Government of that country.
of
aitaith the approbation, not only of this country, but
for which the whole of the civilised world. The object
wall that that interposition took place was to place a
the 13 endeared to mankind by ancient recollections—by
‘vhierhievements of their forefathers—in that position
she was entitled to occupy ; to put that people in
13!?,ition of independence, comfort, and happiness, and
afilue. m
se eans at ti
the same me i her prosperity
; for that end it wasncrease thought by the
POwers concerned that a constitutional monarchy would
prove favourable to internal tranquillity, and that it
would at the same time promote the industry and in-
crease the wealth of the country; but he was obliged to
i..nfeas that heretofore the benevolent intentions which
pfluenced the three Powers had not been accomplished,
for it Was perfectly true that the internal condition of
Greece was far from that which its well wishers would like
;.,0 see; it was also, he was afraid, true that the existing
Government of Greece was carried on upon a principle
of peculation, nod by those who one would have thought
Would have been the last to have acted in such a manner,
and that corruption existed amongst those who ought
to have been the representatives and guardians of po-
pular rights.—(Hear, bear.) It was too true, also, that
acts of great atrocity were, from time to time, committed
by persons in the employment of the Government—
(Hear)—that violence, terrible in its character, had been
' exercised in a manner which he would not shock the
feelings of the House by explaining. Terrible punish
.ments had been from time to time inflicted upon unof-
fending persons, for the purpose of compelling them to
,make disclosures of the places where criminals had taken
r,efuge, or where conscripts, who had fled from the ranks
'Lad concealed themselves—extorting confessions such as
these from innocent persons.—(Hear, hear.) He la-
'roented to say that this frightful punishment was in-
flicted upon an lonian, who, being a stranger,
was entitled to protection and succour. The statement
tr,,fhe Noble Lord with respect to the Minister of
Zdlanee was perfectly true,
_ that the revenue was cm-
"exaled in its progress to the Exchequer, and what was
e...,XPended was misapplied in its application, and in a
LaY.
.wholly adverse to the public servim ; and it was
-0,""t1 Openly in Parliament by the Minister of Finance
ri-tt the greater part of the revenue of Greece was de-
itnaet from contributions in kind—of grain, for instance,
that in one district in which the average quarters
13ifaaraut to which the Government were entitled was
Arc 900 kilos., out of this no more than 8,000
Nye". were sold—(Hear, hear)—as the remainder
their
embezzled by the parties intrusted with
th'lr collection and sale. It was also proved that
bee documents with respect to the finances, which had
amount
laid before Parliament, professing to set forth the
-*11118:11 char
of revenue received had been falsified, and it
-"arged, and he (Lord Palmerston) believed it was
,taitted that that falsification took place for the pur-
V g
e of concealing the amount of the revenue actually
because it was said if the whole amount was
tber:lY acknowledged, it would have been evident that
-thwa til
tore at
st
large sum of money over the expenditure,
toree surplus would have been claimed by the
, Powers who had granted the loan, whereas
Vee a false document they would be enabled to
Brip, the money in the country, although the
Qn...th Government in connexion with the
vortusients of France and Russia guaranteed the inde-
Pendence of
thathe mixed States, yet he did not hold that
guarantee gave to any one or more of the guaran-
admg. Parties any right to interfere in the internal
mistration of the affairs of Greece beyond the point
13iferreipiring that the treaty by which Greece bound
Buts:ittopay
the loan should be faithfully 0h5...-,rve.d.
however they might deplore the mode in which tne
they ot. Greece were administered—however much
might lament the lot of a free people whom they

desire it.
Sir ROBERT INGLIS said that he perfectly agreed
with the Noble Lord that it was not Just or right for
any country to violate the independence of another in
order to see that no injustice was done to its subjects.
But he did consider that in the present case England had
a right to interfere with the Government of Greece in
order to compel her to fulfil her engagements with the
British crown. Greece had claims upon them, not for
its classical remembrances, or from the gallantry of its
sons, but from its conduct in the revolution of 1843. He
did wish that the Noble Lord end her Majesty's
Ministers would pursue a firm yet a conciliatory
course
, re
towards Greece, as they had hitherto done, the of
which would be that she would be made capable osf dis-
charging her debt. Not that he valued thematter in aas
pecuniary light, but as a testimony that Greece was
worthy of the care which they had bestowed upon her.
Sir JOHN lIANMER said that he considered that
Parliament ought not only to desire the repayment of a
portion of the loan, but that the statesmen of the y countr-
should bring it to a more perfect state of civilization.
Dr. BOWRING said that he considered that the in-
terest of England was certainly that Greece should be
well governed, and that her great resources should be
fully developed. The only ascendancy. which England
could desire in that country, was that Of Greek interests,
and of Grecian liberties. The intellectual character of
the country was not destroyed by the length of their suf-
ferings. Their minds had not become brutalized by
despotism, nor did they sink with apathy into
a state of slavery, but maintained the hope
of rescuing themselves at some future time.
The King of Greece did not disconnect himself from the
Bavarians, and every art had been used to prevent the
Greeks from being what they were destined to be.
The revolutions had been, in his opinion, of the highest
honour to the parties to it, and yet General Kalergi had
been transported, and was at the present moment a
wanderer in foreign lands. There had been a revolution
which had been unmarked by bloodshed. There was a
desire for progress, but that progress was to be a blood-
less progress, and such it had been prepared to be. Let
him compare the state of Greece with the state of
Spain, and they would see the difference. In the one
there was a political and a physical struggle, in the
other there was a social and bloodless struggle. Sure
he was that in this strife the influence of England would
be felt. Greece and the Greeks would see that they had
friends who would be ready to advance the position of
their country, and that no difficulties would in any way
prevent the exertions of those friends.
Mr. P. BORTUWICK was quite satisfied that the
speech of the Noble Lord would be of service in pro-
moting the harmony of the members of the Greek
Government.
Mr. HUME wished to know whether the Noble Lord
had any grounds for believing that the interference of
the British Government had been of any service what-
ever in improving the state of the Greek people ? It
was necessary to know what was the course to be pur-
sued, for unless there was some restriction on the pro-
ceedings of the Government in Greece, he was quite
assured that the interference would be of no avail. But
there was a ground of interference, and that was given
by the money which had been advanced. He wished,
therefore, to know whether there was any intention of
the Government to interfere ? lie therefore thought
that some explanation should be given by the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government, whether it was
intended to give any assistance whatever to the people
of Greece.
Lord PALMERSTON said that the answer to the
Hon. Member would be very short, for the Noble Lord
who had preceded him in the office which he held, had,
in fact, done most of the business connected with this
question. A similar objection had previously been
offered, and a remonstrance had been made to the Greek
Government upon the results. A similar objection had
.been made previously, and he thought that the charges
of robbery were perfectly unjustified; but the Hon.
Gentleman might be assured that that no effort would
be spared to render the application which had been
recommended, effectual with the Greek Government.
Among the first of these subjects would be the brigand.
age which had been committed in the Greek seas, and,
certainly, the Government would be fully entitled to sa-
tisfaction for the piracies which had been committed not
only on British vessels, but on the vessels of all tha
people of Europe.

Lord MOB,PETH said the question was a very com-
plicated question of property, and, in the absence of a
document necessary for the substantiation of tho Poor
Knights' case, the Government could come to no decision.
On the vote of 50,0001. for enlarging and improving
Buckingham Palace,
Mr. lIUME said he objectad, because if the building
was not a healthy one the money would be thrown
away. The only excuse for confining the Palace into a
narrow square, which it would be as far as he could see
by the plans, would be, that the Royal Family had a de-
sire for room, which they were no doubt much in want
of, but he thought her Majesty, with a capital residence
at Windsor and other places, might have put up with a
little inconvenience as other people were obliged to do.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said there were two courses
left open for the Government, either to build a new
palace, or to improve the old one. As the more econo •
mical course, they had determined upon the extension of
Buckingham Palace, and he trusted that it would not
prove so unhealthy as was anticipated by the Hon.

Member.
Mr. WILLIAMS wished to ask whether or no an es-
timate had not been taken of the alterations to be made
in Buckingham Palace, and whether it had not been set
as down 150,000/. ?
Lord MORPETH said that the whole expense would
not be more than 150,000/. in the whole.
The vote was agreed to.
The next vote proposed was 5,5001., for the construc-
tion of a palm-house in the Botanic Gardens at Kew.
Dr. BOWRING bore testimony to the excellent cha-
racter of Kew Gardens, and the great attention paid to
the eultivation of rare and valuable plants. He was also
glad that such facilities had been given to the public to
visit them.
Lord MORPETH was glad that the Hon. Member
had bore testimony to the excellence of the garden,
which at the present time contained the rarest specimens
of the plants of the various countries of the world.
Mr. lIUME gave evidence to the same effect, and
hoped that steps would be taken to get the King of
Hanover to give up his garden which stood in the midst
of it. It was not desirable that a kitchen-garden should
be so closely connected with the Botanic-garden.
After a few words from Mr. BROTHERTON and Mr.

Hurr, the vote was agreed to.
On the next vote, that 17,7091; be agreed to for the
expense of temporary accommodation for the House of
Common..
Mr. HUME wished to know from the Noble Lord at
the head of the Woods and Forests when the accounts
of the whole expense of the House would be produced ;
also, when they should have the New House ready.
Was no satisfactory information -given, he would feel
it his duty to call the attention of the House specially
to it.
Lord MORPETH said the-accounts were very volumi-
nous, and it would be some time before they were ready.
Sir .R. IL INGLIS complained of -the time taken to
complete the new House of Commons, and considered
that if they did not interfere, it would be a long time ere
it was ready for their reception. Already for the tem-
porary accommodation of the House and its officers,
there bad been expended 200,0001.
1)r. BO WRING wished to know by what mysterious
influence the other House had obtained their accommo-
dation, while the House of Commons was in its present
position? This ought to be explained.
Mr. GOULBURN said there was obvious reasons
why the other House of Parliament E bould be first ready.
When the last House of Commons was burned down, the
Lords gave up their House for the accommodation of
the Commons, and submitted to inferior arrangements.
He could not agree to any step that would unduly urge
the works, but allow time that the works might be pro-
perly completed.
Sir DE LACY EVANS could not agree with the last
Right Hon. Gentleman. If they were so comfortable
now, why seek to have a new House at all ?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said it was not true that Mr.
Barry had any other engagements that would interfere
with the progress of the works. He had no doubt, how-
ever, that if the House was prepared to vote the neces-
sary money, that gentleman would be prepared to go
on with the works as quick as they could desire it.
With regard to the present House, he did not see any
any reason to complain of the accommodation afforded,
and time should be given to allow them to have the
works efficiently constructed.
Mr. FINCH hoped that in the new House of Com-
mons steps would be taken to secure the sound of the
House, so that they might hear their own sweet voices,
when they might happen to epeak.
After a few words from Mr. P. BORTHWICK and
Sir R. H. INGLIS,
The vote was agreed to.
On the question being put that the sum of 150,0001.
be paid to her Majesty for &fraying the expenses of the
works of the new Houses of Parliament,
Mr. WILLIAMS complained that the public was
being put to unnecessary expence in reference to these
works. The only outlay, which had already been in-
creased, considerably exceeded the original estimate,
and he thought some limit ought to be put to this waste-
ful expenditure of public money. No less a sum than
40,0001. had been spent in decorating the new Houses of
Lords, and yet the public were not permitted to see the
House without paying money for it.
After a few words from Lord MORPETH,
Mr. PROTHEROE did not think the expenditure
had been unnecessarily great, but Mr. Barry had cer-
tainly produced a building most unfit for the purposes
to which it was to be applied, and highly deficient in its
architecture.
Mr. HUME said the original estimate ought not to
have been exceeded, because Mr. Barry pledged himself
to build the new House of Lords within the estimate he
had made. He must, therefore, blame the Woods
and Forests, for having allowed an excess in expendi-
ture. But he did not so much regret the magnitude of
the expenditure, as the failure of the object they origi-
nally had in view, namely, to produce a handsome kind
convenient building. Before they proceeded further,
they ought to know something about the plan and the
party who was to have the charge of warming and
fvahfioeranrcuLddhtwojiisl
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plied to the building.
After a few words from Lord Morpeth, the vote was
agreed to.
A vote of 11,4351. was agreed to, for defraying the ex-
pense of taking down and rebuilding the Home-office.
A vote of 4,4291. was agreed to for the service of the
Holyhead harbour.
On the question being put that the sum of 140,000/, be
voted to her Majesty to defray the expenses of con-
structing harbours of refuge,
Captain FITZROY urged upon the Government the
necessity of making Newhaven a harbour of refuge.
The Hon. and Gallant Member proceeded to read ex-
tracts from a number of reports made by commissioners
at various times with respect to the favourable position
of Newhaven as a harbour of refuge ; the whole of
which went to show that that port possessed considerable
natural facilities for a harbour.
Mr. CURTEIS thought that he should not be pro-
tecting the interests of his clients if he did not say that
the port of Rye, which he had the honour to represent,
had been entirely overlooked .by the Hon. and Gallant
Member.—(Laughter.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that Dover was the first port which had been recom-
mended by the commissioners to fortify and prepare as
a harbour of refuge. Seaford and Newhaven would no
doubt be afterwards embraced in the general system, but
he thought it better to act on the recommendation of the
report of the commissioners with regard to their order
of proceeding.
Dr. BOW RING hoped that the port of Douglas, in
the Isle of Man, would not be forgotten by the Go-
fithraTstthiei
vernment.
set 'le
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afterwards the claims of other ports along the coast
would be taken into consideration.
The vote was then agreed to.
The house resumed ; the Chairman reported progress,
and obtained leave to sit again on Friday.
RAILWAY PIERS AND HARBOURS' (IRE-

LAND) BILL.
On the order of the day fur receiving the report on
this Bill,
Mr. HUME said that after the decided opinion which
had been expressed by the House on this Bill, it was
not his intention to proceed with the amendment of
which he had given notice, further than to enter his
protest against the Government expending money
in this way when they themselves were in
difficulties--with five or six millions of Exchequer
bills to meet, and good paper from five to
ten per cent discount in the market. He would merely
express a hope that they would not involve themselves
further till monetary affairs were in a more prosperous
condition.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said that he had given notice of
a motion on the brining up the report on this Bill
but as the House was anxious to proceed to after
business, it was not his intention to proceed with it that
evening, but he would take an early opportunity of pro-
posing a national rate in aid of the public works for
Ireland.
Mr. HUDSON said that he gave his vote with plea-
sure for this grant, and he hoped the Government would
assist them with loans to carry oat their undertaking.
Mr. WILLIAMS was entirely opposed to such a Bill
as this, as he considered that it would inflict great in-
jury upon the mercantile country. He-hoped the Go-
vernment would not act upon the advice of the Lion.
Gentlemen opposite (Mr. Hudson).
The report was then received.
AMENDMENT OF THE POOR-LAW.

Sir G. GREY then rose to move for leave to intro-
duce a Bill for the better administration of the laws for
the relief of the poor in England, He said it was not
proposed by the Bill, which ho now sought leave
to introduce to effeet any alteration in the
general provisions of the law relating to the
relief of the poor, as its object would be simply con-
fine d to the administration of the laws already existing,
and to the constitution of a body to whom the general
administration of those laws was to be intrusted. In
1842, the Poor-law Commission, which was originally
temporary in its duration, and which had been renewed
from time to time, was in that year continued by Act of
Parliament for a further period of five years, which
would expire in the course of the present summer, and
the Poor-law Commission would cease to exist
by the end of the session of 1848. But at the corn-
mencemcmt of the present session, his Noble.
Friend, 'the First Lord of the Treasury in-
formed the House that the subject of carrying
out the poor-law had occupied the careful and se-

rious attention of her Majesty's Government during the , Mr. BANKES said the question they would have to
recess, and ho then stated to the House the general consider when the subject came before the House would
views of the Government, and the intentions which they be, was this the best system of supervision ? He could
entertained, and that the Government, after full consi- not on this subject but agree with the Hon. Member few
deration, had come to the determination not to propose Montrose, and the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire, that
to Parliament a continuation of the Poor-law Commis- the system would prove unsatisfactory. He considered
sion ; but that it was the intention of Government to another system might have been adopted which would
submit to Parliament a measure involving a great have worked better. It was his opinion that these
change in those by whom the poor-law was hereafter to boards were objectionable, and the appointment of an
be administered. It was for this purpose that he now i extra Under Secretary of State would have been quite
sought leave to introduce this Bill. The Go- sufficient to hare looked after the affairs of the poor-
vernmeat, looking back to 1834, to the expe- laws, in connexion with the Home-office. He thought
rience which they have subsequently acquired, the Government was
.going out of its way in thus
being of opinion, that the reasons which, in 1834, led to creating new offices.
the administration of the poor laws, should remain, to a Lord J. RUSSELL said the first point to consider was,
great extent, at least, in full force; they felt that the was it necessary to have any central control. By far
governing principle of the measure could not be fully the most convenient course for the Govrrnment would be
dispensed with—(floer, hear)—as without some central to return-to the old system of administering the law—
authority they could not guard against the evils which namely, by local boards; that system would free, the
grew up under the old system, and which, when laid Government from any charge of abuse in the adminis-
before the House, were universally condemned, and tration of the law. Whatever hardships or sufferings
therefore, no one would wish to see a recurrence of might be inflicted under the law the Government of the
the state of things which existed under the former law. day would not be blamed for them. But in considering
—(Cheers.) Therefore, the Government thought it the subject most people would come to the conclusion,
would be unwise to return to a local system, undirected that whereas, after thirteen years' experience
the whole of the law
and uncontrolled, although, at the same time, they of 1834, they aft
r unable to bring country
thought that the same rule could not be applied under one system, so now there existed great difficulties,
throughout the whole country in an unvarying manner— and it would not be prudent, or advisable, or even safe,
(Hear, hear)—but, at the same time, they thought to bring all parts of the country under one law in respect
there must be some general authority invested with of the poor. For that reason, therefore, her Majesty's
power to take into account the different districts of the Government had thought it necessary that there should
country, and the varying circumstances which may arise be some central authority who should have the
from time to time. They felt it right, therefore, to re- power to apply the law in particular cases, and to
tain the treatment adopted in Me, with some central relax it where necessity existed,—that some elastic
authority. In 1834, when an extensive change was made power was necessary for the proper administration of
in the system of the poor-law, it was thought desirable such a law. The Hon. Member for Montrose and the
that the persona in whose hands those discretionary Hon. Member for Oxfordshire said, and it was reiterated
powers should be placed should be unconnected with the by the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, that the pro-
Executive, removed from the Government and from posed plan did not give any responsibility. He thought
those popular and political influences, which must ope- the Noble Lord the Member fur the county of Durham
rate upon all men who take a part in the political con- had' taken the proper view of the matter. What they
filets of the day ; but that, separated from the Execu- proposed was, that there should be one person who
tiveGovernment,they should exercise their functions, and should have all authority in regard to the administration
discharge the trust reposed in them, apart from all those of the poor-law, in the same manner as the President of
political influences and excitements to which he had re- the Board of Control had in respect of the affairs of
ferred; but this plan had not been successful, and he India, and the President of the Committee of Privy
could not now controvert the answer that was given to Council on Trade and Plantations had in regard to trade.
this objection to their being more intimately connected Originally, and even now, those officers had nominal
with the legislature. Not being intimately connected advisers at their board, but practically all the power
with the Legislature, led first of all to an imperfect re- centred in them; the responsibility was not shared by
sponsibility, whereas, if the Commissioners, or some of the others who sat at the board. There would be
them, had been Members of the House, they could have responsibility, because the head of the board would
been easily called upon by the House to answer any be solely and chiefly answerable for the manner
charges which might be made against them, and at the in which the law was administered, and must be
same time they would have an opportunity of being de- ready to defend himself whenever complaint was
fended, and of having an impartial hearing in the House made of his conduct, or of that of those over
of Commons. He thought, therefore, that the whom he had control.—(Hear, hear.) He entirely
administration of the poor-law had been delec- differed with the Hon. Member for Dorsetshiro that they
tive in this respect. He would not, however, stop should institute another office of Under-Secretary in
to defend the Commissioners, or to say whether they the Home Department. He had had some experience
had used sill the discretion they should have used, or in that office—the Secretary of State for the Home De-
whether they had generally performed their duties in a partment was a high officer, and he thought there was
satisfactory manner; but at the same time he could not already too much of the administration of details placed
avoid saying, that they bad laboured under great dia- in his hands.—(Hear, hear.) He was responsible for
advantages in not having been able to make their own the peace of the country, the security of the lows, and
defence. A responsible Minister of the Crown, who had the general administration of the criminal law; a great
charges made against him, was able to make his de- officer of that kind had enough to occupy his mind with
fence; the Poor-law Commissioners were not in such a such matters of importance. He ought at all times to
position. Here was an instance of this:—A question be ready to give his whole undivided attention, should
was asked of the Secretary of State for the Home De- the peace of the country be-threatened, and he was con-
pertinent, who knowing himself, p -rhaps, nothing of the stantly called upon to revise criminal proceedings, in
circumstances, states so, but pledged himself to make (eider to judge whether it was possible for him to advise
an inquiry, and to state the result to the House on a the Crown to exercise the high prerogative of mercy.
future day; and, after some delay, he fulfils his promise, It would be impossible for him to do so, were his mind
but still with an imperfect knowledge of the subject incessantly occupied with the dietary tables of work-
which would be obviated by the plan proposed in this Bill. houses, or the other details of carrying out the poor-
The principle of the measure was the maintenance of a law. No doubt he would be acquainted with all general
general superintendence and authority, subject to direct matters connected with that law, but he would not
and immediate responsibility. The provisions of the be obliged to make himself acquainted with the
Bill were that the powers of the present Poor-law Com- daily ordinary'details of its administration. One great
missioners should cease. The Crown was then em- advantage of the proposed plan was that they would
powered to appoint Commissioners for the adminis always have the person who was directly responsible for
tration of the poor-law on the plan of the Board of the administration of the law in his place in Parliament
Control for India. It was intended that one of the to defend his conduct. In answer to the Hon. Member
members should be called the president, who would be a for Knaresborough, he felt compelled to decline saying
responsible person, immediately charged with the su- whether the Government would exclude the persons who
permtendence of the law, but to be assisted by Members were now charged with the adminstration of the poor-
of the Government, who should be ex-officio members, law from any office under the new law or not ; he could
namely the President of the Council, the Lord Privy give no pledge upon the subject. The Government ought
Seal, one of the principal Secretaries of State, and to be free to choose as well as they could those persons
Chancellor of the Exchequer. It was intended that two who, in their eyes, were best qualified to administer the
secretaries should be appointed by the board, and that law; they would naturally try to appoint those who were
the president and one of the secretaries should be eligible most likely to obtain the public confidence. Those ap-
to a seat in Parliament—not that both should sit pointments were matters for serious consideration, and
together, but that the board should be represented ought to be left to the discretion of the Government.
either by the president or one of the secretaries. Ali other matters connected with the administration of
The powers of the present Poor-law Commission the law could be much better discussed after that Bill
would be transferred to this board. With re had passed. No doubt amendments were required, but
gard to making general rules, the Bill provided they ought not only to receive the sanction of, but ought
that all rules were to be submitted to the Secretary of to be introduced by, the person who was to be responsi-
State for the Home Department, 40 days before they ble for the administration of the law.
were intended to come into operation ;if he approved Mr. P. BORTHWICK thought it advisable that the
of them, they would then take effect, but they would President of the Board to be constituted under the Bill
be subject to be removed into the Queen's Benet), of the Right Hon. Baronaletso , t should
the poor woube a new Cab
ldinet
by ce,tiorari, and were then liable to be repealed. It Ainister. lie considered, hat be
was first thought that it would be more advisable to much more effectually relieved by the administration of
make these rules as orders in Council, but on considera- the clergy of the Established Church than in any other
floe it was thought better that they should be signed manner. This Bill, be re
existingleft poor slaw a
fore they would be signally subject to inves- the estate of the poor was not dealt with by the three
titration if they should be brought into the estates of punsalm, but was left to be dealt with by a
Queen's Bench by certiorari. Every ad board, resble indeed to Parliament, but nut forming ,
of the Board must be transacted by two members of the a part of the constitution.
board—either by the president and one of the secretaries Mr. NEWDEGATE wished to know whether the pre-
or by two of the members. Now a report was annually tsident and the secretary of the new Commission now
made ; under this Bill a report would also be proposed to be established, would go out of office with
made every year, addressed to the Crown, and Government.
laid in the ordinary course before Parliament. Sir GEORGE GREY replied that the president and
He should not enter into the details of the present men- secretary of the Commission would hold their offices
sure, but there was one point to which he wished to during the pleasure of the Crown.
direct the attention of the House, namely, that the Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. The Bill
number of the Assistant Poor-law Commissioners being was subsequently brought in and read a first time.
deemed insufficient, it was the intention of the Govern-
Tho remaining orders of the day were then disposed
meet to increase that number to twelve.—(Hear, hear.)
of, and the House adjourned at a Quarter past Twelve
The Government had also determined that the Corn-
o'clock.
mission should only last five years, and that then the
Act should be again brought under the notice of Parlia-
ment. With the sanction of. the House, he should take
the second reading of the Bill on that day fortnight.
Mr. FERRAND felt too much indebted to the
Government for having carried the Ten Hours Bill to
in thethe construction
ol
d Poor-law
o f h
Commissionersi s
e
oppose them in this Bill—(A laugh)—but he
hoped that the Noble Lord would not allow,
perhaps, more immediately connected with the bringing
in of the measure, he could assure the Right Hon. the
Dome Secretary, that this measure would be viewed
thisinto
onhw.o is omrn tttoee a,
consideration, ptphefear ; o nr
ai
fmhae ses
of
with disapprobation. Ile trusted that the Right Hon.
Baronet would take
allowed the present system to continue, he would have
an universal rising against it. But he would ask also,
ommthiattt ee
were
things
did he mean to allow the district auditors to continue in
office? He hoped the Government did not so intend. It
a C
appointedne feahmi no u
donesth, this s
by matteran
theirthe he
dwooinu lgs
o fd
prove means
greater
the
Newfar, r
aono-ldramwhoa rde
themselves. But
bi
let them see what it was that the Right Hon. Baronet
proposed ? He rejoiced to hear from the Right Hon.
oor,
Bironet, that the p Commissioners,
when they wished to have a re
dress for their grievances, had only to apply to the
Queen—the mother of the British nation.—(Laughter.)
But he understood from the Rig ht lion. Baronet that
this Bill delegated all power over the poor of this
country to those Commissioners. The Noble Lord and
the Government might rest assured that he and his col-
leagues would not sleep on a bed of roses during the
period of their being in office and passing this Bill. He
gave fair warning that in a fortnight, when the Noble
Lord brought in his Bill, he should distinctly and perti-
naciously oppose it.—(Laughter.)
Mr. MILES said that he was exceedingly glad to hear
that the Right Hon. Baronet opposite had determined
that the Poor-law Commissioners should henceforth be
partly composed of Cabinet Ministers, and under these
circumstances, he did not think that the Hon. Member
for lineresborough had exercised his usual judgment in
opposing this Bill. But considering that we have already
a Committee sitting on the poor-law, he should earnestly
recommend the Hon. Baronet to put no number to the
inspectors, but leave their limitation to the Counsel.
Thanking the Government for the Bill, he would again
beg to draw their attention to the suggestions which he
had offered.
Sir WALTER JAMES said, as they were amending
the law, they should not bo too hard on the Poor-Jaw
Commissioners, who, whatever might have been their
faults, believed that they were acting conscientiously.
He believed, to make any poor-law efficient, there should
be an efficient inspection. lie also considered that the
Government had acted wisely in instituting the Assistant
Poor-law Commissioners, for he believed that if they
looked to the discussions which had taken place in that
House, they would find that those who had treated the
poor well were persons of this class, namely, those paid
by the country. He, therefore, would support the mea-
sure of the Right Hon. Baronet.
Mr. HUME was pleased that the Government had
taken the course which they had done, yet he must say
that they had not taken the best course. It was an-
nounced that a change must take place—the country
called for it ; but it all arose from the maladministra-
tion of. the law. He hoped this might not be said of the
uthesetio oldn poor-law
new Commission. He trusted that no one of the present
Commissioners would be constituted President of the
new Board. He had nothing to say against those gen-
tlemen personally, but they would impart to the new
administration much odium, and excite great complaint.
proposalrnment was question.
HENLEY doubted much as to the constitution
of the proposed Board, consisting so much of Members
of the present Government. Any inquiry or question
lie was
a
under a new face. They had not a whit more power to
correct abuses. In the system about to expire, there
wforauildd
was no responsibility anywhere, and all inquiries there-
fore have come to nothing. _What were they now
pro-
posing
? Why to put the administration of the law into
that the become
the a Government
the hands of the Legislators. The Legislators and the
executive being identical,
.it was not likely that they
would look with the same impartiality on a law of their
own making. He wished to see some more direct
responsibility. Another fault was, that whatever nega
tive power given to the Commissioners to say this or
that should not be done, was one-sided, and would not
work well. He reserved his further remarks to the
time when the Bill came before the House. •
Lord HARRY
VANE said he agreed with the Hon.
Gentleman opposite, in thinking that large discretion
must be reposed in those who superintended the admi-
nistration of the law. Ile did not agree with the Iron.
Member for beta`Knaresgh in thinking that the size of
the unions ought to all affected by the present Bill.
That was a subject which had come fully before the
w of settlement, and would best be
Committee on the la
subjected to consideration together with that law. He
differed from the Hon. Member for Montrose. He
thought that as there was to be a President of the Board,
a Member of Parliament
the , that concentration of responsi•
bility was attained by proposed arrangement,

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS.

(From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons.
MONDAY, MAY 3.
FACTORIES BILL.
- -

--- - -
Order for third reading read; Motion made and Question
proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time :"
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word " now," and
at the end of the Question to add the words " upon this day
six months :"—Question put, " That the word now' stand
part of the Question." The House divided :
MAJORITY—AYES, 151.

Ackers, James . Gaskell, J. M. Newport,;Viset.
Aclaud, Sir T. " Gladstone, Captain O'Brien, A. Stafford
Aciand,-T. D. " Godson, R. O'Brien, C.
Adderley, C. B. Gore, W. 0. Packe, C. W.
Ainsworth, Peter Gore, W. R. 0. Paget, Colonel
Autrobus, Edmund . Granger, T. C. Palmer, Robert
Arnistrung, Sir A. - Grey, Sir G. Palmer, G.
Arundel, Earl o ~ Grimsditch, T. Perfect, Robert
Ashley, Henry . Grogan, E. Plumptre, J. P.
Austen"; Colonel Raiford, Sir Henry Plumridge,Captsin
Baillie, ,W. Hall. Colonel Polhill, F.
Banker, George Halsey, T. P. Prime, Richard
Batesou, Thomas Harcourt, G. G. Pusey, P.
Bennet, P. Hardy, John Rashleigh, W.
Bernal,- Ralph Harris, Hon. Capt. Rice, E. R.
Blackburn, J. I. Hatton, Captain Y. Rich, Henry
Boldero, If. G. ' Heatheote, G. J. Richards, Richard
Brisco, M. ' Henley, J. W. Rolleston, Colonel
Broadley, Henry, Hildyard, T. B. T. Round, John
kiroadwood, H. Hill, Lord E. Russell, Lord John
Buck, L. W. Wadley, C. Russell, J. D.
Bulkeley, Sir.R. B. Hodgson, F. Rutherford. A.
Buller, Edward Howard, C W.G. Seyreer, H. K.
Byng, G. S. Howard, P. 11.. Shaw, F.
Cabbell, B. B. Hudson, G. Shell, R. L.
Christopher, R. A. Humphery, Ald. Sheridan, R. B.
Clayton, R. R. Ingestre, Visct. Shirley, E. J.
Clive, Vise. Inglis, Sir R. Sibthorp, Colonel
Collett, John Johnson,,General Smith, A.
Colvile, C. R. Kemble, Henry Smith, R. V.
Courtenay, Lord Kerrisou, Sir E. Somerville, Sir W.
Cowper, W. F. - Lambton, H. Spooner, Richard
Crawford, W. S. Law, C. E. Stanley, W. 0.
Curteis, li. B. Lawless, Cecil Staunton, Slr G.
Davies, D. A. Lawson, Andrew Strickland, Sir G.
Denison, W. J. - Lennox, Lord G. H. Tollemache, J.
Denison, E. B. " Lopes, Sir R. Troubridge, Sir E.
D'Eyncourt, C. T. Lowther, Hon. Col. Tufnell, Hoary
Disraeli, B. Mackinnon, W. Turner, Edmund
Dodd, George Macnamara, Major Tumor, C.
Douglas, Sir H. M`Carthy, Alex. Vane, Lord H.
Dancombe, Thomas Manners, Lord J. Vyse,. H.
Duncembe, 0. Much, Earl of Vyvyan, Sir R. It
DarOas, Admiral Masterman, John Wakley, T.
Du Pre, C. G. ' Monahan, J. H. 'Waler, Richard
Entwisle, W. Morgan, 0. Willkiams, W.
Evans, Sir De Lacy Morris, David Yorke, R. LL
Ewart, William liostyn,r„
Ferranti, W. li. Mundy, E. 31.
Floyer, John Muntz, (I F.
French, F. Napier, Sir C.
Fuller, A. E. Neeld, Joseph

TELLERS.
Fle'den. Jolla
lkotherton, Joseph

MINORITY—NOES, 88.
Aldam, William Feilden, Sir W. Ogle, S. C.
Bair e, Walter Fitzroy, Henry Ord, William
Barclay, David Forster, Matthew Parker, John
Baring, Henry Gill, Thomas Patten, J. W.
Baring, F. T. Gisborne, Thomas Pattison, James
Baring, W. B. Godlburn' Henry Peel, Sir Robert
Barrington, Viscount Graham, Sir James Pendarves, Edward
Barron, Sir 11. W. Greene, Thomas Philips, Mark
Bell, Matthew Hamilton, Lord C. Price, Sir R.
Botileld, Beriah Hanmer, Sir J. Protheroe, E.

.
Bouverie, E. P.
Hawes, Benjamin Seymour, Lord
Bowles, Admiral Heneage, G. H. W. Somerset, Lord G.
Brown, W. • Heron, Sir R. Stansileld, W. R.
Bruce, C. L. C. Houldsw orth, T. Stanton, W. H.
liusfeild, W. Hume, Joseph- Strutt, Edward
Callaghan, D. Hutt, William Tattered, H. W.
Cavendish, G. H. Jones, Captain Thesiger, Sir F.
Clay, Sir W. Labouchere, Henry Thoruely, T.
Clerk Sir G. Langston, J. H Villiers, Charles
Colebrooke, Sir T. Legh, G. C. Wall, C. B.
' Dalrymple Captain Lincoln, Earl of Ward, 11. G.
Dawson, J. V. Loch, James Wlnnington, Sir T.
Denison, J. E. j.ockhart, A. E. Wood, t,ir Charles
Dickinson, F. H. 11,Taggart, Sir J. Wood, Colonel T.
Douglas, Sir C. E. Marshall, William Wrightson, W. B.
Dugdale, W. S. Marsland, Henry Young, John
Martin, John
Duncan, Lord
Mildmay, U. St. John TELLERS.
Duncan, George Moffatt, George Leader, J. T.
Egerton, W. T.
Morpeth, Viscount Trelawny, J. S.
Escott, Bickham
O'Ferrall, R. M.
Evans, William _ -

PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS.
(From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons' .)
FRIDAY, APRIL 30.
NOTICES GIVEN AT TH
ILWAYSE PRIV.
ATE BILL-OFFICE.
RA
The Committee of Selection have nominated the following
Select Committees on Railway
MGrou Bps :
A Committee consisting of—r. Blackstone (Chairman),
Lord Rendlesham Mr. Neville, Mr. Pinney, and Mr. Stuart,
to whom they have referred the Bills comprised in Group
No. 24, viz.:—
Birkenhead, Lancashire, and Cheshire Junction (Deviation
of Main Line and Cheshire Branch),
Birkenhead, Lancashire, and Cheshire Junction Railway, and
Chester and Birkenhead Purchase or Amalgamation,
Shrewsbury and Chester (Branches to Langollen, &c.)
Mold (Mold to Chester and Holyhead Railway),
Parkgate and Chester and Birkenhead Junction,
Chester and Holyhead (Extensions to Chester and Holyhead)
The Select Committee to meet on Tuesday, May 11, at 12.
A Committee consisting of—Mr. W. Beckett (Chairman),
Mr. Hutt, Mr. Buck, Mr. Forster, and Mr. Balfour, to whom
they have referred the Bills comprised in
ra nc Group No. 26, viz.:
North Staffordshire co and Bhes),
North Staffordshire (Churnet Valley Line and Trent Valley
Railway Junction),