The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-16 00:00:00

the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite that the Govern-
ment intended to revise the scale of pensions with a
view to the proper remuneration of the disbanded sol-
diery. He had to move that this Bill be read a third
time that day six months.
Captain BOLDERO, in seconding the motion said,
that they in that House could not come to a satisfactory
determination without information from the military au-
thorities. Why had they not the opinions of the Com-
mander-in-Chief to guide them ? Why had not the
same course been adopted in this measure as in the case
of corporal punishment ? In that case, at the recom-
mendation of the Commander-in• Chief, corporal punish-
ment had been limited in extent. But the Right Hon.
Gentleman wished to press this Bill in order to get it
through in the early portion of the session. Was there
any necessity for all this hurry? Could they not wait
until they had the report of a commission upon the sub-
ject 1 Why, at present the veriest drummer boy in her
Majesty's service knew as much of the matter as
any Member of that House.—(Hear, Oh, oh ! and
laughter.) lion. Members might laugh, but how could
it be expected that they, gentlemen, devoted to pro-
fessional, agricultural, or commercial pursuits, should
know anything of this question. And after all, this was
a great experiment, an experiment on an army that was
notoriously the best in Europe, and they were bound to
give sound military authority for the charge, before they
adopted it._ They might search the whole surface of the
earth, and they would not find a better body of men
than those who now composed the British army. lie
might take two instances of the standard. There was
two, which came under the notice of a friend of his, and
he felt assured that from those instances, that a discre-
tionary power should be left in the hands of the com-
manders of regiments, to choose the persons whom they
would enlist, without reference to the standard. If they
were determined to carry this Bill through, they should
do it with certain modifications. There was another
falsity going abroad, and that was that the army was
recruited from the dregs of the people ; but such was
not the case, for the men all showed that they were of
very different characters. If they meant to have good
men, they must give a real bounty. The real
bounty was that which went to procure a kitt, for the
prospect of a pension was too remote to be of any ser-
vice, for, so long as the present practice was continued,
they would always be subject to imposition. He knew
are instance in which one man had enlisted eight times
in seven months, and had. from his natural defects, been
as often discharged ; and he knew another in which a
man had deserted seven times in eight months. If they
were to give pensions at all, they should make them
earlier, for at the present time a man had to wait for
twenty-one years for his pension of tenpence a day ;
and, in his opinion, it would be far better to give six-
pence a day at an earlier period. Then, with regard to
discharge, a great improvement might be made ; and he
would, for his own part, a great deal rather that no
discharges were given in the Colonies, unless the soldier
intended to settle in the colony. They ought to be
brought home, although the term of his service had
more than expired. Under all the circumstances, he
felt assured that the Right Hon. Gentleman was not
justified in pressing on this Bill at the present moment ;
and if he did so without obtaining further information
from military authorities, he would be doing a great in.
justice, and he should feel compelled to vote for the
amendment of his Gallant Friend behind him.
Col. REID begged to recall the attention of the Right
Hon. Gentleman, which he bad invited before to the fact
—viz., that they would by this Bill be doing a great
injustice to the men who were already in the army. By
this Bill those who were entering the army would be
entitled to their discharge at the end of a certain period,
but the men now engaged could not command any such
advantage. He further believed that much mischief
would arise from the withdrawal of the discretionary
power which the commanders of regiments now held of
granting or witholding the discharges of men in their
several corps, and he therefore trusted that the Right
Hon. Gentleman would reconsider this Bill before he
pressed it to a tiivision.
Lord HOTHAM said he was prevented by indisposi- 1
tion from taking any part in the former discussions
of this Bill. He trusted the House would bear with him,
while he stated the reasons which would induce him to
vote for the amendment of his Hon. and Gallant Friend
the Member for Liverpool. It was stated this Bill was
brought forward with the view of inducing a better
class of men to enter the army, but he very much feared
they would never be able, though they passed this Bill.
to attain that object. With regard to the clause limiting
the tithe of enlistment, he considered the Right Hon.
Gentleman who had introduced this Bill had gone too
far on the one hand, and not far enough on the other.
For instance, the time of enlistment was not sufficiently
long to ensure the continued efficiency of the army,
while no provision was made for supplying the vacancies,
when the time of enlistment expired. In 1812, while on
foreign service in Spain the term of enlistment of many
of the men in the regiment with which he was connected
expired, and he well remembered that the men claimed
their discharge. It was known to the commanding offi-
cers of the regiments that no recruits to be got in
England could supply the places of these men, and there-
fore the country was forced to pay a bounty of 164 to
each man to induce him to re-enlist. Such a difficulty as
this may be likely to arise under the present Bill unless
some new arrangements were made with reference to
pensions, and before he could bring himself to support a
Bill like this, he must know the intentions of Govern-
ment upon that point. He was decidedly of opinion that
the Secretary at War underrated the difficulties and
..verret d the advantages of this Bill, and lie could not,
nod, r those circumstances, bring himself to concede to
the nioasur,..
Mr. FOX MAULE said no man was more competent
to give an opinion upon this subject than the Noble Lord
opposite. and he was only sorry that the Noble Lord had
felt it to be his duty to oppose the Bill. The measure
had been brought forward upon the most mature consi-
deration of the Government, and he hoped therefore that
the House would not refuse to give its sanction to the
third reading.
Colonel WOOD opposed the third reading of the Bill.
He thought no grounds whatever had been shown for
such a great change in military discipline, nor had there
been any data given why they should assent to such a
measure. The Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Fux
Maule) in the course of his speech said that the pension
was a matter of royal prerogative, and was not a fit
subject for the consideration of the House, but he
(Colonel Wood) denied that. It was not a royal pre-
rogative any more than enlistment, and he
thought it unfair, therefore, to exclude the House
on such grounds from the consideration of that objection
to the Bill. Ile believed the object of the Government
to be the improvement of the discipline and the in-
creased efficiency of the army; but how, he would ask,
could that be effected when there was no increase given
in the pay or rations of the soldier. The tendency of
the Bill, he believed, would be to disband the army, and
he thought theobject anticipated by the Government of se-
curing by the B 11 an itcreased power for the defence of the
country by a reserved torte, formed of the soldie rs who re-
tired after 10 years service, would be entirely disappointed.
He thought that this force would never be found so
effective as a reserved force, composed of pensioners who
had served the full term at present required, combined
with young recruits. This force he considered would be
much more effective and powerful than the former, and
in case of emergency, would be found a greater safe-
guard for the country. Believing that this measure will
not have the effect which it is contemplated, he would
vote against the third reading of the Bill.
Colonel LINDSAY considered that the principle of
limited enlistment was good, but he considered that
fourteen years was, however, better than ten. lie was
of opinion that some intimation should be held out that
an increase of pension should be given, or else the Bill
would not have the desired effect. He would vote against
the Bill, as no such intimation had been held out.
There was no prospect that at the end of the second
period of the soldiers' service there should be an increase
of pay.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the Hon. and Gal-
lant Gentleman had no doubt pointed out many incon-
veniences which arose from the present system, but he
was of opinion that the proposed measure would remedy
many of them. It was to be desired that they should
have a better class of persons in the army, and the pre-
sent was one of many measures which were
intended for the improvement and comfort of the army.
The general argument adduced on the question, did not
overbear former experience. He could assure the Hon.
Gentleman who spoke last, that the other question,
with regard to the pension, would, not be lost sight of
by the Government. The warrant of 1832, was very
well considered. and had the consent of the highest
military authorities of that time, and it pat an end to
many difficulties which had previously existed. Ho
thought that. under the altered circumstances—having
men enlisted for ten years—and who being good sol-
diers, wished to re-enlist for a further time, the
question of pension, end its amount, ought to be
fully considered by the suggestions which had been
made in that House, and the suggestion made by the
Right Hon. Gentleman, not then present, to the Secre-
tary at War would be properly and fully weighed by
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from the Hon. Gentleman who opposed the measure, it
gave him great satisfaction, as a Member of the Govern•
went, to be enabled to coincide with him in the sugges-
tion which he bad made.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment
Against it 9l
Majority
Mr. FOX MAULE then moved that clauses 4,5, 6,
7, and 8 be omitted.
Colonel WOOD suggested that certain words be
struck out of the 2d clause.
Mr. FOX MAULE said he could not agree to the
alteration.
Colonel SIBTHORPE was astonished at the course
proposed by the Government. It was a most extraor-
dinary proceeding for the Secretary at war to strike out
so many clauses. Why, scarcely any portion of the Bill
would be left. He would advise the Gallant Colonel
(Colonel Wood) to move the omission of the 2d clause
altogether. Then he (Colonel Sibtuorpe) would move
to strike out the first, and they would, therefore, get rid
of the Bill altogether.—(Laughter.)
The motion was then agreed to.
Clauses 4,5, 6,7, and 8, were then struck out, and
the Bill was read a third time and pissed.
'TROOPS DURING ELECTIONS BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed.
PRISONS (IRELAND) BILL.
This Bill was also read a third time and passed.
SEDUCTION. &c., BILL.

Mr. SPOONER moved the second reading of this
Bill. He had understood that the Secretary of State
would have urged no objection to the measure in this
stage, and that the discussion would be reserved till the
Bit! was in Committee.
After a few words from Mr. HUME,
Mr. CHARLES BULLER said that the Right Hon.
the Secretary of State had left, under the impression
that the irtli Eta nowt be brought forward that night.,