The Sun.
London, England, 1840-03-10 00:00:00

"since occurred, which could justify her Majesty's Go- , 5e.,3 that justice was done them,—(Loud cries of
vernment in relaxing their vigilance, or in consenting " Hear, bear.") He had most unwillingly brought.
not to demand snch a sum as would be necessary for the this subject forward, and he would have refrained
maintenance of the internal peace of the country. He for doing so if he could only have obtained from his
would now place the vote in their hands, with the Right Honourable Friend an assurance that justice
strongest confidence that the House would not refuse to would be done ; but not having obtained that assurance,
it their assent. The Hon. Member conclUded by moving and feeling that he was parth responsible for the present
that a number of men, not exceeding 93,471, exclusive state of things, he felt bound to call upon the House to
of the. force employed by the East India Company, express its opinion on the subject.
should be maintained for the service of the United Mr. MACAULAY agreed with his Noble Friend as
Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, from the Ist of to the injustice of which he had compleitiid, but his
April, 1840, to the 31st of March, 1841. opinion was that the offer made by the E India
On the vote being put, .
Company was perfectly fair and lust. The complaint
Mr. HUME rose and said that he should have ex- to which the Noble Lord had adverted he believed was
petted from the Right Hon. Member some notice of i only applicable to the two Presidencies of Bombay
the number of men to be employed in the home service. 1 and Madras, for with respect to Bengal the
It would have appeared, from the address of the Right soldiers there received their rations aryl their spirit
Hon. Member, which was a very eloquent one, he I money, and wire p!iieed upon as good a footing as
would admit, that the only troops they had in August i English soldiers in coy part of the world. By the offer
last were 5,000 men, but he forgot to tell the the East India Company had made the troops at Beni-
House that they Lad forty-five thousand men be- i bay and Madras were to be placed upon the same foot-
sides. It had been said that economy was vulgar, 1 ing as those in Bengal ; and he ( Mr. Macaulay) con-
hut he (Mr. Hume) had no objection to be considered I sidered that offer so fair, that he was quite wiliirer to
vulgar on that head. He did not thiek, too, that what- share the -esponsibility of accepting it with his Right
ever might he said in the House, that doctrine would be Hon. Friend.
much heard out of doors—that was not the first time he
Sir HENRY HARDINGE said that the House
heard that language—he had been before accused of a
must be convinced by the speech of the Noble Lola%
vulgar economy, and it bad been said that that was not
and the authorities he had quoted, that there was some-
fit for the House. It had been said that no one but
thing very wrong in the manner of paying the soldiers
persons of base and low views could have recourse to
in the different Presidencies of India.—( Hear, hear,
it. But let Hon. Gentlemen remember this, that they
h
must either have recourse to economy or to extortion. hear.) Supposing that an officer had 101, to receive,
He had seen in the letters of Lord Dudley Stuart that he would be paid 80 rupees ; but it a civil servant
while standing with a Chancellor of the Exchequer, it
had thesame amount due to him, he would be paidloo
had- been said of them, that they were "penny wise and rnarSuereaa fornaturally causedsa mree aattu do ius'eno. nte Tn
t'' i si
n wtiaies aorsmutijseecrtv7' h i cilia
pound foolish." Allusions of that kind, however, never India. The real gquestion was, whether thatyfalse ticgur_
made any impression on him. He would now ask rency should be allowed to remain in force. He did not
how it happened that the Duke of Wellington think that the arrangement proposed by the East India
with 68,000 men, maintained the peace of the country Company was a wise one, if the soldier was to be told that
as well, or even better, than the present Government a piece of money was worth and counted to him at the
with their increased force ? In 1838 they had but rate of 2s, 6d., whilst its actual value was only 2s. He
81,000 men, while now the army amounted to 93,000 men. strongly advised the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite to
He (Mr. Hume) did not see any necessity for that in- d come to a settlement of the question as soon as possible,
crease. It had been said that he had given an eoo-
ain that country. allay that irritation which existed in the minds of the
nomical vote in last August, and he certainly found soldiers
himself obliged to vote on that occasion for an increased Mr. MA CAUL A Y explained. The Company gave more
force, in consequence of the disturbed state of the corn- moneywarra than thhat, in fact, there was no hardship to be
they were necessitated to do by the Royal
try. But
ed of. he had also stated, at the same time, that he complain
so
hoped a speedy remedy would be put to the discontent Sir HENRY HARDINGE begged to be allowed to
which then prevailed. Had that been done ? If it explain his meaning. Suppose a soldier in India wished
had net, the Government were to be blamed, and if' to purchase his discharge, the regulation price was 30/.,
it had, they could have no necessity for the increased but in India he would be obliged to pay CM ; or, again,
demand which they now made.—(Hear, hear.) suppose that a soldier died in the hospital in India, and
Undoubtedly, whenever there was any disposition to that a balance of 81. was due to him, when that suet came
endanger life or to destroy property it ought to be sup- to be remitted to his family in England it was reduced to
61. Tnat was very unjust both to the soldier and the
pressed. But there was no necessity for the present
force, with the facilities which now existed for the trans- officer'
mission of troops, in the most rapid manner, to different Right Hon Gentleman was that the pay
of the soldier was
parts of the kingdom.—( Hear.) Besides there was
91-d. and 8-}d., whereas, in fact, by the Royal Warrant, the
the police—a civil force—known to the constitution long soldier was only entitled to 7d., which was, in fact, as
before a standing army was admitted. It was entirely nearly as possible, equal to the value of the rupee at 2s. Oid,
a question of degree. He (Mr. Hume) had never joined
Lord HO WIC K did not approve of the proposal of the
in the indiscriminate outcry against a standing army. It East India Company to place the three Presidencies on
would be recollected that when the Right Hon. Pre'si- the same footing as that of Bengal. Lord William Ben-
dent of the India Board (Sir J. C. Hobhouse) had in tinck, who was no mean authority on the subject, in his
former years spoken against a standing army at all, he Minute, sent home to the Government in 1834, pointed
had defended it. He had done so on this ground, that out the danger of not doing justice to the soldier in India;
on the common principle of division of labour it was and considering the various expenses which are thrown
better to have a portion of the population-set apart for upon him in that country as compared with other places,
military purposes than to have a half-and-half kind of he was of opinion that he did not receive that rate of pay
t
soldiery—such forces, for instance, as the Yeomanry or to which he was entitled. In Bengal the rations of the
the Volunteers—(Hear,hear)—to which he had always troops wasfounelby the East India Company, while in
Bo
objected—considering it highly undesirable that men system m Bombay y
whichand
was Madrasta
fit
ohietyc i had regimental
satisfactory
co ntratocts
the a
should be called out to act in a hostile manner against troops. Now, if the three lmore
Presidencies were placed upon
their immediate neighbours. He believed it tended the same footing as Bengal, they would deprive the sol-
much to create ill feeling and promote disaffection.— diers of their reeimental messes, and he trusted the Go-
(Hear, hear.) But the soldiery did their duty as matter vernment would not consent to any such proposition.
of fixed, habitual discipline—that was known and felt, Sir. JOHN, 1-10BHOUSE said the arrangement re-
and hence they were much more fitly and effectually ferred to in Lord William Bentinck's minute, was entered
employed to suppress popular ebullitions than the into with the East India Company in 1796, and had con-
Yeomanry, and he considered ten soldiers of more value tinned up to the present period, he -did not mean to say
without complaint or remonstrance, but without any which
than a hundred yeomanry for the preservation of the
-
peace.---( Hear.) Look, for example, to what had taken
a?peered to the Government to be well founded. The
place at Newport, which showed how very small a proposition of Lord William Bentinck was duly considered,
and a despatch framed at the India House, and transmitted
military force would serve in such unhappy emergencies. to the Commander-in-Chief, stating that the statement
Now, for what reason could eleven thousand men have was incorrect that the soldier did not receive as much silver
been added to the army since 1837 ? The old pretence as he was entitled to upon his Majesty's warrant, as, in
of relief was urged as usual. Why not then put an end fact, he received more. If there were any grievance,
to the depot companies? As to Colonial corps he the Government was willing to rectify it; and he
was glad that subject was to receive attention. He would take the liberty of telling his Noble Friend it
was the last man in the House to wish soldiers to be would have been notified a year and a half ago, but
more than ten years from their country. But he was for the friendly controversy between them on the
subject. He ( Sir J. C. Hobhouse) contended the soldier
sure the principle of selection (as we understood) to
dnow recone deiveer hda aN much che
Flaxgder, amount than he
.would have
different destinations would greatly obviate the notes- now
warrant ; and did his Noble
sity for reliefs. He did not conceive there was any
Friend see the danger of agitating these questions ? did
necessity for the vote of 93,000 men., He should move he recollect what occurred in 1798, when a representation
its reduction to the amount in 1837, and subsequently of a King's Warrant, with reference to the pay of the
he should be happy to move and carry a further redue- troops, arrived in India through some unofficial channel
Lion to what was the amount in former }ears. He before it was promulgated in the usual mode by the Corn-
now moved that the vote be reduced to 81,319 men. ' mander-in-Chief? A,:d what was the consequence ? The
Mr. WILLIAMS seconded the amendment, troops took the alarm and mutinied, and remained in
General SHARPE said be believed the present mutiny ten days, and wrung from the Commander-in-Chief-
number of men was necessary to preserve the safety of
a positive promise for the redress of their grievances,
the country. He did not think the police force with though it was true the Government did not altogether act
their staves could safely supersede the necessity for any ono the_ promise that had been wrung from him ;_ this be
military—in unusual emergencies they could not " do
took
kthe liberty of mentioning to his Noble Friend among
considerations. Again he asked if the East
the thing at all. "—(Laughter.) Tho,,attempt to save a_ India Company's mode of paying . the troops was
few thousand pounds in this way, to a great natiatilike interfered with, what would be the effect on
this, would indeed be "penny wise and pound foolish." their allowances, ' in which respect both officers
-(Hear, hear.) So far from there being too many aol- and men received advantages beyond those in any
diers in many parts of the country, there was the other quarter of the globe? Did he think if they inter-
greatest want of them, and he should feel disgraced fered without just cause, the Company would grant the
did he not support the vote.
Lord HOWICK said, so far from thinking this vote
too large, he much doubted whether the number pro-
posed would be sufficient for the various objects which
his Right Hon. Friend had to provide for. He desired
especially to see arrangements made for better re- same allowance that was now received. What, also, would
be the arrears, if an unjust mode of payment had taken
place since 1818?—what an account would his Hon.
Friend,. whoh repr.fesented theß Directors, have to give re-
his spotting
them, if
andjuat ?it wouutld heam
might say the East India Company could
lieving the regiments of the line. He regretted that A:A 1. t
tr J. C. Hohhouse),
to ansottnn which
Hhe
aeineteo teat Ile had written a letter on the psua)l;:ect tot
further delay was deemed necessary to the establish- Lord Glenelg, but he did not persevere in his applies-
ment of that force in Canada, which for the last four or tion, for after consideration of the question, he bad- not
five years had been matter of debate and discussion. come to the conclusion to which his Noble Friend had ar-
He begged also to observe on the advantage which rived, but that the East India Company, in equalizing the
,
would arise from the increase of the black forces in the pay of the soldier in the different Presidencies had
West Indies, where the mortality of the British troops done all that justice required.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.")
was most terrific.—(Hear, hear.) The general state- He had received a despatch from the Governor-General of
ment of his Right Hon. Friend had been most India,satis-
and another from Sir James Carnac, deprecating
the agitation
of this uestion. Each of those despatches
factory, hut on these points he (Lord H.) wished there
stated that at presenteithere was no dissatisfaction existing
had.bptin. mni:e encouraging declarations.
on the subject; but that if the question were agitated, it
Sir A. DALRYMPLE said a few words, too in- might give rise to very great dissatisfaction.
distinctly to be heard with sufficient accuracy for re- Sir H. HARDINGE would recommend her Majesty's
porting. -, , ,i, Government to bring this question to as speedy a settle-
Mr. P. HOWARD reminded the House that the ment as possible. There was a discrepancy between the
greatest military authority -in the country—the Duke account of the two members of that Government ; the first
of Wellington had declared emphatically that our admitted it was a. grievance, the other said that it had
garrisons were starved, and that this empire ought
existed ever since 1790., had
to
been acquiesced in ever since
never to have a " little war."—(Hear, hear, hear.) that period, and that it was better let well alone. He
He would also suggest to his Hon. Friend the Member
wouldCuor of t recommend her Majesty s Government and the
Directors to take the subject into their immediate
for Kilkenny, that the Bill for extending rural poliCe in
and sea ions consideration, and settle the question as
the country had scarcely passed six months, and could speedily as possible.
hardly have had great effect yet. His Hon. Friend Sir R. JENKINS corroborated what the Hen. Gen_
must at least admit this, too, that the increase he had tleman had said on the subject. In 1835 a warrant had
complained of last year, had been made on the prinei- been issued by the Noble Lord, of which the Board of
ple he had often advocated—that of making the num- Directors had had no previous cognizance, and which
her of privates more commensurate to that of officers, they could not have imagined would have applied to the
Economy, no doubt, was praiseworthy. but he did not troops in India, had not the warrant been officially trans-
think his Hon. Friend had made out a case here, minted to them. Immediately on the receipt of it, they
Sir H. HARDINGE said he should support the had transmitted a protest against the application of it in
vote asked for by the Right Hon. Gentleman, whose India, because it would have subjected the troops in Ben-
, al to a severe loss, and to q.. h• err; -as
statement, he thought, must have been convincing to gal to a severe loss, and to this day the question has re-
mained unsettled. The factthis was thatthe theu o
awoatncoersi s
et re-
do
the House on the necessity of the present force for the the troops in Bengal exceeded that which which wasa h
exigencies of the empire. In Canada alone were nine- by the warrant of the N.,ble Lord. Their allowance
teen battalions instead of nine ; and to India two bat- amounted to twelve rupee's and eight annas
per
day,
which
talions had been transferred from Ceylon -beyond the exceeded, in sterling money, 21d. per day the amount pro-
ordinary force. Why, in India there were battalions posed by the Noble Lore ; that was when they were on
which had been there for ten, fifteen, twenty years— full batta, and when they were on half batta the amount
(Hear)—and there was not a battalion in this country exceeded, by lid. per day, the amount proposed by
which had been home more than four years. He the Noble Lord's warrant.
thought the increase last year of 5,000 men had a bone- Sir CHARLES GREY said that the fluctuating sys-
ficial effect, in enabling some four or five battalions to tem of exchange in India had placed the Government in
nasseant.it
varied
trisasl
evdlilmirpoostssfibrolem tod fix
l tthoe rate
da
return home. The increase of the black troops ‘rg)fret"htateemxhcalita.
me
in the colonies, a! recommended by the Noble During the gtimae he (Sir Charles Gryey) ways
Lord the Member for Northumberland, must de- in India, the rupee was worth more than its intrinsic
pend upon the state of the coloured population, and value, and the different services had gladly taken it iti
the confidence which the Secretary for the Colonies pay, It had afterwards, however, .decreased in vdue, and
might deem it safe to repose in them. He thought it he thought it fair that they should submit to the come_
right to say that in the battalions of the Guards, em- quence of that change. He thought that the best means
played for the last two years in Canada, there had been of remedying that inconvenience would be to ascertain the
no desertion ; and in the army generally employed in intrinsic value of the rupee, and to pay the men accord-
that colony, the rate of desertion had ditininished in the ingly, without any regard to the fluctuations of the 'coin in
last two years to 21 per cent., from the rate of 7 or 8 India,
Mr. HUME thought that the Government should take
per cent., which was the average of former years. He '
supported the vote. the subject into their hands. There could be no difficulty
• in ascertaining the exact sum to which the men were en-
Mr. MACAULAY confirmed the statement of the titled, and that sum was all which they should receive.
Gallant Officer, and added that there had been no charge Lord HO WIC K said, that he foued it impossible
of misconduct against the Guards, which might be to leave without an answer an observation made by the
owing to their having been kept in constant employment. lion. Baronet opposite, (Sir R. Jenkins). It might ap-
Captain BOLDERO supported the vote. He had pear from the statement of the Hun. Baronet, that he
no fears for the fidelity of the British troops in any (Lord Howiek) had been guilty of the gross impro-
situation. The soldiers sent down to Newport; during priety of advising his late Majesty to issue a warrant
the recent disturbances, had been much tempted by anadtcoatransmitthat warrant to India, without any corn-
Theatwas, that Government to whichi he had the
the Chartists, with whom they associated in the public-
itni tit°on with
:
houses when off duty. In that. respect they afforded an honour
into office belong.the
he had found in
honourable contrast to the French troops, when em- ►
question, and he had submil,:).retedParatio n w
the when ire
warrant ea 7 ine
it to his late Ma..
played in suppressing internal dissensions. jester for his signature It was issued to the arm
The Committee then divided. The numbers were— in general, and not to that of 1ndia,......( Hear?)
For the vote... .. ... 100 The Noble Lord said, his flight Hon. Friend had laid
For the. amendment 8 great stress upon the fact, that the despatch written by
Majority
On re-entering the gallery, we found Lord William 13entinek, was submitted to the Coalman_
Lord HO WICK addressing the Committee, but we der.in-Chief, and by him approved. But his Right Hon. '
could not glean, from the few words we caught, on what Friend kneiv that on a financial matter the Commander_
item he was speaking. in-Chief was no authority whatever. His Right Hon.
Sir JOHN HOBHOUSE said that it had been Friend had complained of the cost of agitating the ques_
determined by the East India Company to erualise the tion; that, however, was always the argument of those
1411Wapees and pay of the troops in the different Pre. who advocated an abuse.,--( liar, hear. ) The East India
the pensions from the G
sideneles, with the'full concarrenoe of the Board over
reoceladnythewiftuhllregitartdotootfheP 'nsioners residing in India,
which belied the honour preside. The troops employed ment, and amountpaid it even'
in Bombay and Madras would be put on the same foot- deduction. the pensioners with this large
ing with the troops in Bengal immediately, although the Sir H. HARDINGE suggested that the pa). warran t
equalization would cost the East India Company
thould issue to India, in rn-ce., instead of pounds, shil-
45,000L'a%ear:
. lips, 4141 P- ence _.that ar raareement would prevent fluctua-
-
Lord 110 WICK said that the equalization would lions, and would, moreover, obviate the necessity f ' .9r ill `S
not remedy the erievance of which he eomplained, and present unfortunate diseussion.—( Hear.)
w4ieh inc. that the officers were charged 2s. 6d. for the
"noel,,
r.Seir J•abHrooa4B,,H,
.o:SwE4said. he laa,-1 (I.l).ieeied to the words
wascani signed by his Noble
rupees t\ireli"they 'received in In(lia, Egid 61'4 they %Tcre F 1 nd the late Secretary at War, because those words
alloyed only 2s, for it when they remitted it to'Englarl.
includea".ould India, but his Noble Friend persisted.
I That grieVaned did not affect the. ,men and non-com-
, He (Sir J. El ) however, wrote to the Govern.or-in-Genhee-
missioned officers se much as it affected the officers.
cal, directing him not to act on
It appeared to him when they considered what was re- i did that thewarrant wea thatereoueetiswl`ir:irin i.t(-I.Toliap4tsion
9uhed from the troops, when it w , • known that th.cy ,
. of his /::loble Vrien'd i Aid' havin:, 'bee'n issued against th
were coMliolled to suffer bani!hreent fettn, fbene native tee i,...e Bf., ihe directors.
country, it wes abseltitely inptrplerl,t. on this country to , " Lord ficiWicK _syill my ftiglii lieu., Fe;:end say
___-.......+-#.19.,,11TT1....W.......-