The Sun.
London, England, 1847-05-15 00:00:00

Captain MANGLES said the present motion was a most
mPortant one, and they should consider it carefully ere they
gave a decision. He (Captain Mangles I thought this check
very beneficial one, and he could not sanction any proceeding
en the part of the House that would prevent capitalists, or
those who had small sums of money from investing them in
loans on railway undertakings. A few years ago there was the
greatest difficulty in getting any interest at all, and now, when
a benefit was likely to be had, they ought to possess it. With !-egar t
d o the returns of the North-Western Company, he
egged to say they were sent in to the commissioners on the
Bth of April:
• Air. CHAPLIN wished the Hon. Member for Montrose
cha
had had only a year's experience as a railway director, or
ma ir didnd then he would know more about the question
than heFrom his experience the established lines were
often obliged to make extensions in self defence. Some few
yeara back as soon as a line was talked of for Epsom the
"trraospheric project was started, which, after being laid down
'toe a few years, was now being taken up. The same applied
by the Reading and Guilford line. Again, they were assailed
polarutiSprDnicreocnit
pPaonrytsmouth line, which at last was sanctioned by
stelae Such was the position in which the time
old been placed. Whatever was done, full time
"be given for deliberation. The Hon. Member for Her.
were two schemes lest they might offer a serious check to
wickhad said the borrowing provisions were a sufficient check
ea
Capitalst • undue progress in these undertakings. So far as private
were concerned this was perfectly true, though
lishnot be so of banking establishments. Thus the estab-
a__, lines were in every direction assailed by speculators,
unlessgeeugrei.s.laturethe former took measures to occupy the ground they
7e . !ure to be deprived of their legitimate traffic. Now, the
had supported this system for the last two years.
ISd hope ere they acted on the advice of the Hon. Member
," Montrose, the House would see what the Government had
tuPro • .
P se in its stead.
atrhepsipLnoelokirtdit;lnohll. N RUSSELL could not give his consent to the
of the Hon. Member for 'Montrose. It did not
the ebo nu necessary; nor did he see that it would effect
Sect which was sought to be obtained. He did not
either that it would be just to the railway companies, or
itlee public at large, to press such a resolution. The Hon.
0„
the present
for Newcastle, had stated a case which bore strongly
Present question. He supposed the case of a main line
which Wanted to make a branch, which was of great import-
the to secoure and develop their traffic. Now, according to
_ot provisions f the present resolution, such a main line could
"t
ed• the making of a branch until it was corn-
It was not f t to sa➢ that, till a
ezerttain
cCompany'wise or
made the mainm y
branch they should
ee have the power of making a branch which might
.oef the greatest importance. Unless they did so, perhaps,an
independent company would be got up to occupy the ground.
(Hear, hear, P
Which we .) The resolution would not meet the evils
berall re complained of. Regarding railway enterprise due
• leration. Because they had hitherto acted in a lax
~r.t,!re, they should take care and not fall into the error of the op-
c:ole extreme. They ought to be cautious how they checked that
had le,tunte application of capital to railway enterprise whichth
the herto proved so advantageous. He did not agree with
in Hon,a Menaber for Coventry, that this House should step
interfere to place a greater control upon railway pro-
tochetteesdiyiniasdthbeanenhtaod hitherto been imposed. The course prev.i-
appoint Committees, and no Bill could obtain
disc sanction of the House without consideration and
full:titsi". There was every opportunity for the
Re r investigation if that were thought necessary.
inyeaetra_erubered, also, when such money was sent away and
e 9 in foreign stocks not very useful to this country, while
4,,,▪ arl..°Steher time the capital of this country was sent to North
ro;"elera to h
therefore, it 'Pent in the construction of canals ; and he re
econs
looney, mitte debtors of the country who borrowed that
not very ready in repaying it. How unwise,
would be to restrict the application of capital to
th__ ruction of railways in the country, when by doing so
Z,,',",Y,wosould divert it into channels which would result in injury
upotssslbtioe the country. On the other hand,. however, it might
hcaoltculatotedato lead to the ruin of the parties
for money to be expended in railways which were
case like that, it was the duty of the
House t° interfere and stop the progress of the railway ; but
decidedly of promoting them ;
Hof he
extreinel of opinion that Parliament ought to be
). cautious in interfering with the progress of these
tindertakine
entipeiaer
sub.e,,s. It must be clear to the House, however, that
no j .cts connected with the capital and solvency of parti-
cular Inpanies, that it required some other agency than a
utnarnarntnataelitrgtaearalotf five Members of that House to inquire into such
that would Isaietil'at, or to report upon the expediency of leasing
ing particular lines at high rates of interest ; but
he would not afusruthbjeeredt eftuarinditsheeustisiooonsoenninthtte.r evening,The and
be no doubt whatever that the railways had proved highly
calculate what future benefitsy and,
re coaudl d
vantageous to the country,
and he was, therefore, decidedly perhaps, it was difficult to
weoref
otoptboetoodetrhiavtedtoofrommoohtheoman!
tion could not be used in their endeavours to stop the progress
of these undertakings.
Mr. COLLETT' trusted, after what had fallen from the
Noble Lord who had just
isoatdown,
IllmssGwzooulßdGrnit
his resolution.
BENTI the /lon. Member for
porsatacittiecea,bl , supposing the HousefCitK said the resolution would
bFeorimi onee portion O
Should not be allowed to sell the linseaiodf
were to agree to it.
seionaidlo,s to understand how, by any the lined
one
,railway cohmepany
Now he
company
ever be in a position to sell the line of another. The
„ se L rd at the head of the Government had spoken of
too speculations in North America. He could mention
trose
Lineowther speculation which proved no less disastrous, and if
asandot mistaken, with which the Hon. Member for Mon-
,tle something to do, namely, the Greek loans. It would
h,;_res Onen much better had that money been invested in rail-
-114.70_t this country, rather than thrown away upon a foreign
sake„n, Sod he trusted the fact he had mentioned would be
auother reason why they should not interfere with the
r ;11' tion of capital to works at home,
IIen.epCHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought his
draw hir_iend the Member for Montrose would do well to with-
good we' resolution ; at the same time, however, he thought
the He aid result from this discussion. Much of the evil which
4-,Gentleman had spoken of was traceable to the Com-
Con of that House rather than to the railway directors. He
considered it would be much better if the Hon. Member for
the
°titre% would postpone his resolution, either by g adjourning
debate or withdrawing it till a future occasion.
Mr. HENLEY called attention to the difference in the deci-
Si"' of the Committees of the House and the Railway Com-
Missioners, and was of opinion that some means should be
adopted to procure uniformity.
Mr. MORRISON said that during the last two years there
had been forty millions devoted to
railwayspeeulations, and this
year also a very large sum was required. When in addition to this
the expenditure for the famine in Ireland was taken into conside-
ration, it would be found to be quite impossible for them to go
on in that expenditure much longer. If they proceeded in this
way, he would ask how were their manufactures to go on ?
The capital would be all abstracted from its legitimate course,
and though large manufacturers might be able to carry on
their business. small men would be completely ruined. The
Only remedy which they could apply to this state of things was
to reduce the profits of capital invested in these undertakings,
to the same level as that embarked in other undertakings.
Instead, however, of any measure being taken for that pur-
pose, every interference of the Legislature was in the contrary
direction. Some one must suffer for this in the long run, and
the sooner they attempted to arrest the evil the better would it
hie for the country. He was very indifferent whether his
'len. Friend's )'resolution was carried, but he thought the dis-
cussion it had produced would be of great advantage as it
Would
NI call public attention to the subject.—( Hear.)
r. HORSNI AN thought that when the immense amount
u
of cad—pital which was to be expended on railways was tionsi-
TI11Ti; be,ing 160 millions within the last few years, and 80
`"a tce l::rpresent ear—some measures should be adopted to
ertt so large an tract en of it from the undertakings in
aerntell it was
legitimately embarked. Feeling that the Go-
us were about to adopt measures in respect to railway
Irnat°c, he could not support the proposition before the
kealet and he hoped the Hon. Gentleman the Member for
trin4trose would withdraw his resolution.
NEWDEG ATE merely rose to protest against the doc-
shon-PPounded by the Hon. Member for Inverness, that they
uteeislicinterfere to regulate the profits on railways. He was
to hear such a doctrine deliberately enunciated.
of the ic_i?RISON explained. He had never said anything
111 r,
•
Hon, WDEGATE regretted if he misunderstood the
14:,,_
,:iientlernen. He considered that the proposition he
-""i as to reduce the profits on railways to a level with other
aciur aliens, and if that did not
pia.„, 'IRISON, interrupting, said that what he stated
Othsertuat tOhe profits on railways should not be larger than any
At kiwi of speculation.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
sae r- „I‘HTCH ELL said that the expenditure on railways was
thk n tromitrade and manufactures, and on that account he
light that measures should be adopted fur preventing its ab-
straction from these interests.
f Mr. STUART said he was very much struck at the course
° argument pursued by the Hon. Member for Bridport. Was
the Hon. Member a free trader ? Did he not think every-
°,l3 was at libert to divert his capital to what purposes he
rases
(Ironicyal cheers.) What was the course the Hon.
tenaber took on the Corn Bill? Why, it was likely that he
voted just that capital might be directed into particular
channels. Now it was evident it was so, for the. Hon..M m
her now preferred
di • • (Hear hear.)
a aourse of Legislation interfering with ethe
direction of capita •
Mr. TRELA WNY said freei trade was good, but a parti-
cular case rested on its own merits, and they had carried that
ease too far. Capital on railways was entirely sunk. Nothing
could be recovered except from the dividends, and in many
cases there could be no dividend, because the capital was
swallowed up, and was still insufficient for the purposes to
which it was applied.
Mr. AINSWORTH thought that railways gave employ-
ment, and prevented the capital from going out of the
country.
Mr.' HUME replied—He was not at all surprised at the
speeches of the three Hon. Members who had spoken last, for
they did not understand the subject.—(lronical cheers.)
but the Hon. Member for Bridport (Mr. Mitchell), and the
1100. Member near him (Mr. Trelawny), were perfectly
sound. Why, if he could prove that a number of men, who
projected a railway, with a capital of 4,000,000/., put a bonus
of 3.900,0001. into their pockets, and he could prove, and
would prove it, then capital would rapidly run in such f
d ireo -
lion. He had been challenged that night for not bringing ol•
d
ward his motion earlier. His motion was presented and laid before a Committee last year, and but for the time of the
at',ion, it would have been brought forward He admitted,
with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with whom he never
agreed, and with a Noble Lord, that the motion was per-
baps °f too simple a character, and it might be well to post-.
tihee'e it, that some more general Act might be brought in
he,for
I'tame object. Ile had only proposed this as a.stheptv;
:leresore, proposed adjourning this question to this nig td eels
4t he must protest against any Committee being forme .
The debate was then adjourned.
VAN DIENIEN'S LAND.
-reorelllostent°f theetsa.tive s
HE said that on next onday
onhe would ask a 9,U NMo
eher
ble Lord the MembM Ler for don, whether itues-
was
ti,„, intention f Majesty's Government to give a repre-
ysten to Van Diemen's Land, or any other of the

R Y S.
Mr. HUME said that heAILWA would move for a report
Dum-
fries, the
evidence taken before the Committee of the Glasgow, um-
fries, and Aberdeen railway.
POOR-LAW BILL AND PRISONS BILL.
Mond J. RUSSELL said it was his intention to move,.t
ou
tiov nett, the second reading of the Poor-law Admini ra-
-0 B.ngland) Bill before the other orders of the
.dayt andte
'riday next he proposed to take the consideration of h
risons Bill before the ether ordeN.
DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS WITH ROME.
On the older of the day that the blouse go into Committee
on the Loan Discount Bill,
Mr. UORSMAN desired to put a question to the Noble
Lord the First Minister of the Crown, whether the Govern-
Ment had any intention of placing the Italian States on the
Rause footing as other European States, as far as regarded di-
Plomat ic relations.
~ Lord J. RUSSELL said that he perfectly concurred with
itihboeralon..Member's observations as far as they related. to the
policy pursued by the present Pope; and it was his
desire to see more formal diplomatic relations between that
teoeuntoury dan England. He had seen with very great pleasure
1:.:h h course which the present Pope had pursued—( Hear. )
,/'!
"ale believed would very much tend to the happiness of
that': Jle should have no hesitation in saying that he thought
it would be desirable to have diplomatic relations with the