The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-05 00:00:00

SUN 19 N DON, FRIDAY EVENING-, FEBRUARY 5 1847.

622/. per mile would pay 3} per cent., and pay an aggregate
total of 16,00/. But he takes the Arbroath and Forfar at
only 9,004/. per mile, consequently, taking that as the basis,
after deducting money paid to Government, a net return of
702/. would give 1 per cent. profit ; 800!. would give 2 per
cent. ; 999/. would give 3 per cent; 1,055/. would give 4 per
cent. ; 1,153/. would give 6 per cent. ; 1,2291. would give
7 per cent. ; 1,335/. would give 8 per cent. ; 1,4231. would
give 9 per cent. ; and 1,521/. would give 10 per cent. Such
as instrument as this could not fail of going to the length of
improving the country, and bringing capital into Ireland, and
call that into use that already existed there, while the poor
rates and the county cess would be greatly relieved, since
they would not employ only the 110,000 labourers now en-
gaged on the useless works, but would employ npwards of 200,000
in the construction of these railways. He did not wish to overstate
the advantages of this measure, but he did say, that if railways
could be constructed, as had been shown for 1701. an acre at
twenty years' purchase, the advantage was amazingly increased,
and that the funds of the country would rise. He had assumed
his date, on the calculation, that these railways would cost
.600/. or 1,5001. per mile, whereas, he believed, that they
could be made for at least 1001. lower, and he believed that at
least 300 miles of ground had been already purchased, This
would give an expenditure for the payment of land of
1450,0001., and that would form another suns to be added to
those which he had already paid. and which would swell the
amount of 240,0001., which would come to the relief of the
Poor. He now came to that portion of the measure which
affected the public revenue. He had given an expenditure of
16,000,000/. on a security of 51,000,0001., to make 1,500
miles of railroad, and it was alleged, by a Member of
the Government the other night, that this would dis-
tress commerce and disturb the money market.
lie did not think that the expenditure of 1,900,000/. per &n-
-oun could have that effect. He bad consulted several gentle-
men, who ought to be well informed, as to the state of the
money_market, and, amongst others, the Member for West
Essex, and all had agreed that it would net have that effect.
Did the expenditure of 15,0(10,000/. in 1835, which was raised
for
the compensation of the West Indian slave-owners disturb
the money-market? They contrived to pay 3,000.0004 in the
year 1835. We found that during the year before, the price of
the Three per Cent. Consols was 891. The day before this
money was paid, the price of Consols was 90/. 155., and the
price of Reduced Three per Cents. was 901. 12s. 6d. The
Contract was taken for the Reduced Three per Cents. at
881. 13s. 4d., and at 751. for the Three per Cent. Consols.
The whole of the contract was taken at 90/. 2s. 6d., the
Consols being 13s. 7d. above par with the long annuities, so
that the whole of the contract was taken 11. 4s. 3d. to the
advantage of those who had contracted the loan for 15,000,0001.
Did this at all affect the funds ? Certainly not ; for en the
day after the contract was completed Consols stoo at 91, and
is the year that followed they had improved to 2/.171. 6d.,
and in the year after that to 4/. 14e. Had they not had the
experience of the lean of 15,000,000 k ? And it should be
remembered that this money was not raised to be disbursed in
the_ country, in the digging of canals, the formation of rail-
-7,131, or the building of mills ; but was all sent out of it. But
the money which ho proposed to raise was to be expended in
relieving the distress and in rewarding the industry within the
Country. Lord Bacon had made a just remark-that "muck
must be spread before it could fertilise ;" and it was the same
with industry. They had expended seventy millions a year in
the support of foreign war, and to uphold the power of the
State, and he allowed that such a course might depress the
taonvy market, but then the whole of the money was sent out
of the country without their being a single pound returned. -
( Bear, hear.) But did the expenditure of 7,000,0001.,
which had in bygone years been employed in the
working of silver mines depress the market. Did the capital
"gaged in the silver wines of Bolanos, in their Candonga,
Cita Branca, their Brazilian and their Capiato Association,
sad used even for the working of mines in the West Indies, de-
w press the money wake? But he would nut go through the
long list of the twenty-three mining companies through whose
agent y this capital was sunk in the year 1825, never, never to
lie returned. (Cheers.) He thought that upwards of
13,000,0001. had been sent to relieve the necessities of Ohio
and Kentucky, and where were they ? Where were the mil-
lions that had been sent to Portugal? and the more than two
millions that had been sent to spain ? and which were only
now to be seen in the funds of Passive and Deferred Annui-
ties. Had there not been immense sums spent in America in
tailwaYas and did they not all realise the outlay ? for
L
"e believed that there was not one among them which
did not repay the money expended upon thews. Yet all
these, so far as Great Britain was concerned, were dis-
bursements out of pocket, and disposed of out of the country.
But he must beg leave to say, that whilst he was calling
upon his own country to lend to Ireland 16,000,000
sterling at a reasonable rate of interest, without any
charge or expense, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
when he advanced to Ireland a loan to be employed on
public works, did not stand in the same position as the
private capitalist. The private capitalist was restricted
to the bare interest he received for his money, while the
public officer derived many other advantages besides his
interest. When they looked back to the last four
years, and reflected what an expenditure of 13,000,000/
year in railway enterprise had dune in increas-
ing the revenue of the country-in the excise,
in the customs duties, in the consumption
of beer, of malt, of spirits, and of tobacco-
peculiarly the consumption of railway lahourers
he
thought they must be of opinion with him, that in-
directly the State would be a sleeping partner in the
advantages to be derived from Trials railways. They had
it stated in evidence by Mr. Peto, that at first he found
drunkenness amongst his men was a great drawback in
the completion of his contracts, and he accordingly re-
stricted each man in his employ to a gallon of strong
beer a day.-(Laughter.) Now one gallon of strong
beer gave a quarter of a peek of malt consumed by one
railway labourer ; and, setting aside what his wife and
family might consume-setting aside what came to the
revenue in tea, tobacco, and sugar, he paid
Si. 4s. a year in the excise duties upon his beer
alone. 'Well, let him see how this would work
out. Upon looking at a calculation of the
excise duties in Scotland and Ireland, he found that
in Scotland the excise duties gave 1/. Os. 3d. per head
upon the whole population, whilst in Ireland there was
only 3s. I*. paid per head. This, after deducting the
soap returns, and such duties as were not paid in Ire.
land, gave a difference upon the excise in favour of
Scotland of 16s. I id. per head. Now he was not going
to pretend to say, as was calculated by Mr. Stanley, of
the Board of Works, some ten years ago, that the effect
of making 1,500 miles of railway in Ireland would be to
bring the population of the counties up to the level o'
Scotland, but he thought he might say with great
confidence, that out of 550,000 labourers, 110,000 would
be raised to the average level of Scotland ; and if
they calculated that number at 16s. lid. it would give
an annual sum of 440,000/., which divided into three and
a-half per cent. interest would represent a capital of.
12,600,0001. Well, but still there wore the Customs
duties. It was not unfair to suppose that the construc-
tion of a railway would increase the Customs as well as
the Excise duties. He was aware that there was great
difficulty in getting at the Customs' duties of Ireland and
Scotland, because a large proportion of them were paid
in this country, but an estimate had been made, not by
himself but by an excellent authority upon such matters,
and from that estimate it would appear that the gross
amount of custom paid in Scotland averaged 13s. per head.
While the gross amount paid in Ireland only averaged
6s. 2id., making a difference of 6s. 9id. The increase
of the customs would, he calculated, represent an annual
aura of 202,0001., which, at 3i per cent., would give a
sum of six millions sterling. Well, then, if he calcu-
lated, and it would be perfectly fair to do so, that the
employment would continue after the railway was'com-
pleted and in full vigour, he would have a right to say
that there would be an increase in the revenue of no less
tnan 642,000/., which
at 3i per cent., would give a ca-
pital of nine millions sterling. Now he be-
lieved' there were good grounds for thinkinv
that, after the execution of these various lines
of railway, the employment would be continued
by the improvements which the railway would
introduce. It was calculated that ten men were em-
ployed per mile in maintaining the permanent way, ex-
clusive of the artificers engaged in building carriages,
and the driving and. manufacture of engines, while it
was estimated that the improvements that naturally
grew out of agriculture from the construction of a rail-
way would absorb six men per mile. But when they
recollected what railways had done in this contry-when
they looked at the large towns which had grown up
upon the South •Western Railway, and the extension of
Southampton, which had since the ripening of the railway
nearly doubled its size and its docks-it was not
too much to suppose that every mile of a new railway
would absorb sixty of the men who had been engaged
in its construction.-(Hear, hear.) Take the railway,
for instance, to Valencia harbour. They had the evi-
dence of Mr. Walker, the Admiralty engineer, that
sooner or later Valencia harbour must become the
American packet station of this country. They had
also the authority of Lord Liverpool, who said-little
thinking at the time that railways would be carried to
the extent they had been-about the year 1827, that
Valencia must eventually become the point of d..parture
for America. Before, however, the prediction could
come to pass, a railway of one hundred and ninety-
five miles in length would have to be made, and innu-
merable would be the towns and improvements it would
give rise to. It might be said-he knew it would be urged
lsnn:le-that if Irish enterprise could not walk without
crutches, Irish enterprise must be allowed to fall ; but
be had
that day received a communication from Mr.MOSs.
of Liverpool, one of thel early promoters of the Liverpool
and Manchester Rai
been for a loan of 100,09'0)0/.
to the effs•ct, that had it not
advancedi by the Government
of that day, he believed the pool and Manchester
Railway never would have heevfer
paid.-(Cheers.) But
there was another argument that would be used. He
had heard, not in that House it was true,
n atic
they elsewhere,
l
that whenever loans were made to Ire
were repaid. Grosser ignorance neverova3 displayed
neverd
than was displayed by those who had made atyehat
statement. True it was that one million sterling which
was advanced had never been returned, but unfortunately
this was not owing to a disposition to repudiate the debt,
but to certain religious prejudices which could not be
got rid of.-(llear, hear.) They had it upon the
authority of Lord Devon, that so far from the loans to
Ireland not having been repaid, the truth was it had been
the custom of England to lend her money at usury
prices, but still even at these prices two-thirds of all
the grants had been returned. A circumstance had
come to his knowledge within the last few days
about the Agricultural Bank of Ireland, whose h, ad
quarters were held in Cork. It appeared that
no less a sum than 900,0001. was out at interest
upon the joint notes of two tenants together,
greater part of them in sums not exceeding
20L, but to the astonishment of all the bankers and
assignees of the company, when the affairs came to be
wound up, such was the good faith of the little people
connected with the concern, that not a shilling was lost.
-(Cheers.) He had another instance of the good faith
of Irishmen in matters of loans, which had been re-
lated to him by Mr. Prosser, the engineer. Mr. Prosser
some years ago, went to the counties of Limerick, Wa-
terford, and Cork, to construct wooden railways, but
the labourers were so ignorant that he could not get
them to work at first. Mr. Prosser, however, reasoned
with them, and, one by one, they saw the utility of the
iuvention, and readily entered upon the work. Some
of them, however, were in so wretched a condition, being
without clothing to cover their nakedness, that many
of them applied to him for loans of 205., 255., and 30-,,
which he readily advanced ; and in no one instance
wad the money not repaid.-(Hear, hear.) Those
who said, then, that if they made their loans to
the Irish people, they would be leading money that

Til

would never be repaid, were scandalous calumniators.—
(Cheers.) He had forgotton to state, that, originally hi:
intention was to propose that the repayment of the money
should commence seven years after a certificate should
be sign'd that the railway was in operation, and the
whole to be paid from that time in instalments, running
to the end of twenty years. When, however, the interest
and profit of money was paid, to all intents and purposes.
the debt did not exist, and, therefore, it did not matte.
when the money was repaid, or how long it took to repay
it; hut upon consulting with the monied interest, he wa,
told that the repayment of the money by instalments would
create confusion in the dividends, and therefore it woul,,
Le much more advisable if it were specified that the
money should be repaid in thirty years.—(Hear, hear.)
He had heard at different times that there was danger of
outrage in Ireland. They had heard a story oftentimes
repeated, and as often refuted, that the peasantry were
buying arms, with which to rise up in rebellion. He.
for one, denied it. When he read accounts of ten bodies
out of eleven persons, lying dead in one house—of dogs
and sv, ins wallowing over their dead bodies—of th
dead being denied the common decencies of a burial, to
save the price of the coffin to sustain the living—h.
could not help expressing his surprise that they had
been so long patient.—(Cheers.) He could blame them
not ; and so far from expressing discontent at anything
they might have done under their long suffering, he
said let them rather till the bellies of the starving Irish
people with go, ,d meat—wholesome mutton, good bread,
good strong beer—and fill their pockets with Eng
lish gold. Let them assist to cover their beds with the
blankets of Witney—to clothe the men with the fustian,
of Manchester—their wives and daughters with the
cotton prints of Stockport, and ribbons of Coventry, and
with his head he could answer for the loyalty of the
Irish people.—(Cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—Sir, I can have no hesitation in offer-
ing my tribute to the patriotism which has induced the Noble
Lord to bring forward this motion, and to the ability which he
has displayed, both in framing his plan and explaining it to the
House, as well as to the zeal which he has shown for the benefit
of the people of Ireland, and in behalf of that sympathy which,
as he truly asserts, must be the best cement of the union of the
two kingdoms.—(Hear, hear.) While Ido not hesitate to
pay that tribute to my Noble Friend, I could wish that his plan
had been such a one that I could at once have agreed to its
proposition, and adopted it in aid of the measures which her
Majesty's Government have brought forward for the relief of
Ireland. I can assure my Noble Friend that I entirely believe
in the sincerity with which he has asserted that his plan was
intended to aid and assist, not to interfere with and hinder, the
plans which we have introduced ; and, entirely believing in
that sincerity, no absurd or petty feelings on my part that this
plan is not the original plan of the Government, but had
come from a member of a different party, could,
under any circumstances, induce me to refrain from
adopting it.—( Hear, hear.) But, in fact, the matter which
my Noble Friend has brought forward—though not the plan
he has to-night proposed—has been for some time under the
consideration of her Majesty's Government ; and we were
obliged, therefore, to look at it in its different aspects, with a
view to the adoption of some plan with respect to railroads
which might be useful to the country, or which might be
suited to the present state of destitution and want, I may say
famine, in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Now, in considering each
a plan, I would say but a few words with regard to its fitness as
a plan suited to the general state of Ireland. My Noble
Friend near sue, the First Commissioner of Woods and Forests
( Lord Morpeth), some years ago, brought forward a plan
with respect to railways which I though: then, and still think,
was one that would be of essential advantage to Ireland. The
plan proceeded on a totally different principle from that em-
bodied in the Bill of my Noble Friend opposite. It went on
the principle of railways being formed by Government, and
conducted by persons under their control, the amount thus
expended to produce four per cent. iuterest, any additional
the
in-
terest to be applied either to the extension of railways, or
diminution of debt upon those existing. According to
that plan the object would have been attained
which many may still think of great importance,—viz., a
Government control over the railways of that part of the
United Kingdom with respect to the conveyance of stores, and
with respect to the direction of the lines, and the places to
which they should ..o.—(Hear, hear.) In all these respects
the Government Commissioners' thought it would be advanta-
geous to have them under the control of Government ; and
many persons indeed think that the plan adopted in France in
this respect is superior to that followed in this country.—
(Hear, hear.) But that is not the plan of my Noble Friend.
There have, indeed, been periods in the course of some years
when 15,000,000/. of money might have been required to ex-
ecute lines of railway over several hundred miles of country ;
but, of course, any such plan as that would not be now se re-
quisite as it was when these railways commenced. Speaking
of the proposal of the Noble Lord as a general plan, I would
say that it is not advisable for Government to step out of its
way is interfere with the general adaptation of capital to rail-
ways, and to favour one set of companies, having set on foot
particular railways, rather than others.—( Hear, hear.) The
very instances my Noble Friend adduced of the North British
Railway being at 401. premium, and the Great Southern and
Western Railway being at 6 per cent. discount, were just il-
lustrations, showing how inexpedient it would be for Govern-
ment to interfere.—( Hear.) What my Noble Friend has
quoted is just the rate of the market ; it is the rate which
people laying out money think is the specific value of the
shares of the one company and of the other. Now, for
Government to interfere so as to raise the price of the ;hares
of one company, and thus give them an advantage in the
market, and to divert capital from other railways, the one set
of undertakings having only Government assistance to support
them, would, in ordinary circumstances, be a departure from
the functions of Government, and an undue interference with
the application of capital, favouring certain parties to the de-
triment of others, where both were equally deserving.—( Hear.)
But the present plan is brought forward, and, I think, will fall
to be considered, in its application to the present distressed
state of Ireland. It is, therefore, with a view to the present
distressed state of Ireland that we are now to consider it.
Some time ago the railway companies of Ireland had a meeting
in Dublin, when they agreed to make a representation to the
Lord-Lieutenant. *fhe Lord-Lieutenant transmitted that re-
presentation to me, and it was to this effect :—Supposing the
railway Acts which were passed in 1845.6 to require 15,000,000/.
to execute the railroads which they severaly authorised, that the
Government in three years should advance 5,000,000/., the rail-
way companies engaging to advance the other 10,000,0001. Now
that was not the plan of my Noble Friend, though it rested
essentially on the same principle. We male inquiry as to the
effect of this proposition ; and let me observe, we stood in
tke position of laving before us the expenditure of large
sums of money, partly on loan, partly on grant, from the
Treasury of the empire, in order to alleviate the extreme dis-
tress prevailing in Ireland. We could not, of coarse, suppose
that there was a boundless mine of wealth at our disposal ;
and we were bound to consider, seeing that the demands
upon us must be large, and indeed could not fail to be large,
in what manner the means at our command could be applied
to the relief of Ireland, the wants of which were most urgent
and most pressing.—(Hear, hear.) New, my Noble Friend
ran have no difficulty in agreeing with me, after the horrible
scenes to which he adverted towards the end of his speech,
that what was most distressing in that country was the want
of food, especially in a number of the most destitute and most
remote parts of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Bnt the application
of money to the purposes of these railway companies, to the
formation of railways, could not meet that particular object.
( Hear.) It may be, and, indeed, there can be no doubt of the
fact, that a railway is of great advantage to the country
through which it passes. I can agree with the Noble
Lord as to those advantages ; without entering into his
calculations, for those calculations I certainly shall not
dispute when I recollect that my Noble Friend has bad
the assistance of the Hon. Member for Sunderland and of Mr.
Laing in drawing them up. Without disputing those calcula-
tions, I perfectly agree with him as to the ultimate benefits to
be derived from railways. But the question I am considering
is, how the application of a. large sum of money, given by the
Treasury, is to relieve those who are immediately pressed by
destitution ?—( Hear.) It is obvious the first thing railway
companies do—for on this point I examined some of these who
waited on me as a deputation—the first thing they do when a
railway is to be constructed, is to go to certain contractors, to
get them to contract for certain parts of the line. I asked
what those contractors did, and whether they had any control
over them as to the persons to be employed. They said they
had no control over this matter ; these contractors went to
sub-contractors, who had the employment of the labourers,
thus removing from the railway company by two degree, those
who were immediately employed in making the line. I asked
what conditions they made with those contractors as regarded
the parties to be employed; and they said that the condi-
tion was that they should be able-bodied men, and that after
the first two or three weeks spent at the trade, they should
not have less than Is. 6d. a day, but no further agreement
was made. Now, it is obvious that if the Government were
to advance money to the railway companies, those companies
would contract with contractors, these again with sub-con-
tractors, which sub-contractors would engage the labourers for
the line ; of course, engaging only able-bodied men—those fit
to do their work. In the next place, they would engage them
only at the time when they wanted them, and at the particular
place where they required their labours. If there was a village
in great distress, perhaps in some distant part of the country,
of course they would not consider that they had anything to do
with the distress and destitution in that village.—( Hear, hear )
The old men and the women of a district, whose labour was Of
no avail, would not be employed in such work, even though
they were starving ; they would not come within the province
of these contractors, who would naturally employ those persons
only whose labour was worth the money given them. There-
fore, it appeared to us, that for the purpose of relieving distress,
employment on railways, considering the persons who would be
employed, was not the best mode that could be adopted. In the
next place, looking at the map, we found, what it was natural to
expect, that the counties through which those railways passed
were the least distressed in Ireland; they were the counties whi
were most flourishing in times of prosperity, and which suffered
least in times of distress. Therefore, the system of railroad
labour does not apply to those parts of the country that are
particularly distressed, and to which our attention ought to be
mlasetnyt
e;ara:acl,
croahiedfisyhdasiele)eeetenducd(eHr etahre,
ehoenasri.d)eraTtihoins nuafattthere ofof
ramssetrstGi_nogyrearoil--
peezoprdriesoefntthede
Ptha
there
particularlyare soenvee ra
inl instancesn iwnh !the
their answers to
a er I have re-
Treasury under the late Government gave
applications from railway companies. In the p p
ferred to they said :—" Acquaint the parties that my Lords do
not consider it advisable to make special advances to railway
companies who have undertaken to make railways on private
account, exclusively for individual advantage ; that it is open
to those companies to raise money by calls on their subscribers,
or by loans ; and that, on the application to the commis-
sioners for Exchequer loans, their claim to receive aloan from
the public funds on the same conditions and securities as the
undertakers of the works of the same description will be
duly considered." Now, I believe the late Government, as
well as the present,maturelyapplications.
I considered those
I have understood from the late Chancellor of the Exchequer
that they were so considered, and I have no doubt the reasons
which
induced them to refuse were reasons not very different
from those I have now stated to the House. It did not appear
to them that the allowance to railways were the best means
by which the distress could be relieved. Now, with respect to
the distress at present existing in Ireland. My Noble Friend's
calculations
could hardly promise
gtehnaetraltlhyeraeccwuorautled ;
hboutsulehthnk h
aigreaet
tamountoso of employment as he held out when he spoke of
miles of railways and sixty men employed on each mile.
Of course, parts of the line would be sooner finished than
others.

Lord G. BENTINCK had calculated 200 per mile, but
took sixty as an average.
Lord J. RUSSELL thought the difference immaterial.
With respect to another matter, great inconvenience had been
found from railway works going on for a time, and then alto-
gether ceasing, in consequence of the railway company finding
it advisable to do so. It is therefore impossible that the
persons who are in the greatest destitution, and who are
spread all over the country in the south and west, could de-
rive any material advantage from
the expenditure of this
money. You may
call the present works useless, if you will,
and no doubt they would be useless, except for the purpose of
giving wages to the men who are employed on them, and who
get those wages for the supply of their wants. And the system
' proposed now is a system for giving to those perms moat.

ing to 580,000, the means by which they could purchase fcod.
This seems to ore to be the chief object you ought to aim at.
There are other objects of a more permanent nature ; but the
present object is to do in Ireland what you do in England, by
means of the poor-s ates, in a time of distress. When that
pressure on the poor-rate comes, you do not ask whether the
persons employed are employed at useful work or not. Your
object is to give them food to maintain themselves in life.
Now, this is an object towards which the railway
(hetsysem can
do very little.—( Hear, hear.) With respect to general
improvement of Ireland, I agree generally that the establish-
ment of railroads in Ireland would be of immense advantage,
and I do hope to see railroads established in that country.—
( Hear, hear.) Nor do I say altogether that in every casepublic
assistance ought to be refused ; but this I say, that having a
case of extreme destitution to provide for, I do not think it
would be wise to give 16,000,000/. of the public money to
the promotion of railroads. Ido not believe that it would be a
wise expenditure ; and, considering the vast demands upon us,
if we do so we shall be obliged to check other expenditure more
immediately necessary.—( Hear, hear.) I shall not oppose the
bringing in of the Bill.—( Cheers.) I have understood, from Mr.
Speaker, that there is no objection in pointof form to the Bill,
provided it does not introduce money clauses, that would re-
nuire a previous committee. Ido not oppose the introduction
of the Bill ; but let my Noble Friend understand me, so
that I may not be accused, afterwards, as I hope I never
shall be accused, of deception.—(Hear, hear.) My opinion
is, that it would not be wise for the Government to adopt
this scheme ; but when we are asked to go into Committee
for the purpose of voting money in pursuance of this object,
I think that there will be but two courses for the Government
to pursue—either to adopt the scheme entirely as their own,
and make themselves responsible for it, and carry it through
as their own; or, declining to be any party to the scheme, to
refuse to give their assent to the proposal of my Noble Friend.
—( Hear, hear.) When a grant of money is proposed from
the Treasury, the responsible Ministers of the Crown are
obliged to take certain steps regarding it, and when the proper
time comes for doing se en this occasion, I cannot say that I
shall be prepared to assume the responsibility of giving au assent
to the plan of the Noble Lord.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. B. OSBORNE came there that evening prepared to
support the Noble Lord's motion. He thought the Noble
Lord who had given his voice against the Bill had not acted
fairly, in allowing the Bill to be printed, and then opposing it
in Committee. Now, the Hon. Member for Lynn was eriti-
tied to greater praise than any other Member, for having brought
forward a great measure for the redemption of the country.
The Noble Lord at the head of the Government, although he
said that the subject of Irish railways had been under their
consideration, did not say that he was prepared to bring in
any measure on the subject. The Noble Lord concluded his
speech by contradicting the very first proposition with which
he commenced his speech. He said that he did not think it
fair to advance so much money for the purposes of railways,
because it would interfere with private enterprise, and then he
concluded by saying that at a future time the state might per-
haps render some assistance to the railways. The Irish
people expected that the Government had been put in their
places not to filch little schemes from individual Members of
the House—a suggestion as to the poor-law from one Hon.
Member, soup kitchens from a Quaker, and so on. They
ought to come forward and adopt some bold and com-
prehensive plan, like that suggested by the Noble Lord the
Member for Lynn. He would not sit down without expressing
his great admiratien for the great talents. displayed by him in
the very able and practical speech which he had delivered that
Cheers. )
Mr.
eRO BUCK
Noble
r eEw ereLionrsdu
insuperable
etarts:bcseluehi quite
objections
surprised rt lhs
ee dGtoaot
vttehhreen
name
eoenuarts.suer pursuedelioef
saidth e
etbhvyaetnthitnheg.
himself
readsemhe
msg.
emfi
liming,
Noble Lord the Member for Lynn, and yet he had allowed the
he ire
wHoeu l(dAtiern
theßill
Roebuck)ltiobebret liberty
introducedto
objectedop P ot
os aetnhli et
the House why be objected to it. The Noble Lord had pro-
nosed to spend 16,000,000/. in making railroads in Ireland.
Now, in ordinary times that work was left to private enterprise,
and the capital requisite for such works was always obtained
from the surplus wealth of the people. The Noble Lord the
Member for Lynn proposed not to ask the rich to come forward
with their money, but he asked the Noble Lerd at the head of
the Government to tax the people of England, in order
that they might apply the produce of that tax to
Ireland. He obj scted to the people of England
reservingsangde t °
being taxed, for the purpose of employing their capital in any
speculation whatever. He was of opinion that the people of
England should be taxed for the purposes of the Government,
but they ought riot, under any consideration, to be taxed for
the purposes of speculation. He had a right to ask every
English representative if he would allow his constituents to be
taxed for such a purpose, and to such an extent, as that pro-
posed by the Noble Lord. They were already told that
9,000,0,01. would be required for the measures of the Govern-
ment. From a return that had been laid upon the table of the
House, it appeared that presentments had also lately been made
to the tune of 2,500,000/., and a Bill was about to be brought
in to sanction that expenditure. Let Hon. Members just add
these things together, and see how the matters stood. There
was the 9,000,0001. already proposed, and the 2,500,0001.
about to be sanctioned—that would make a total of
11,500,000/. Then the Noble Lord came forward and pro-
posed to take 26,000,0001., that would make together, on the
lowest calculation, 37,500,000/. The ordinary sum collected
for the purposes of the revenue during the year was about
5b,000,000/., and more than one-half of that sum
had to be placed to the credit of the national
debt ; so that the case stood thus :—There were
8,000,000 of persons requiring for their own benefit a sum
equal to more than one half of the whole expenditure of the
Government. This was all very fine; Gentlemen might talk
of comprehensive schemes, or accuse others of malignity or
mendacity and ignorance, if they attempted to make any state-
ments or express any opinions upon the subject. But the
question to be considered was, what would the people of Eng-
land say upon the subject when the tax-gatherer came round?
—( Hear, hear.) The state of England ought not to be over-
looked. In the very constituency which he had the honour to
represent, there were persons in such a wretched state that they
were obliged to tear up their clothes and those of their children
into rags, and sell them as such at 2d. per lb., ix order to ob-
tain a meal, bnt when such tales of suffering and want were
told of the poor wretches in Somersetshire, they excited no sym-
pathy in the hearts of Hon. Members, but the moment a tale of
Irish distress was brought forward the House resounded with loud
cheers. The Noble Lord pledged for the truth of what he said,
he (Mr. Roebuck) did not know what value others might
attach to it—his own head. He pledged his head that he
would fill the bellies of all the Irish with good mutton and
sound ale, clothe all the men with the clothes of Manchester,
and bedizen their wives with the ribbons of Coventry ; and, in
addition to all this, fill their pockets with English gold.—
(Laughter.) He would ask, in sober seriousness, was it not a
sad exhibition to be made by any person in that House, and who
was supposed to know the state of the population of England ?
was it not extraordinary for any Hon. Member to get up in
that House, and say that he would feed the Irish people with
" mutton and ale" when the English people were not able to
get either the one or the other?—(Hear, hear.) What would
be said if some Scotch Member were to get up and say, the
swolern,:peopleiecelteara ants
Ireland,
tvewh,eptei, toytahh:
ed‘eirmeaf
ournmtotdomt
eots
toei aps
aantdmryoaeplHeHef
proper
er'
n'
people of Scotland must be fed at the expense of the English
e
duty,
England.—(Hear,
intended,
Memberdatnehhddee:
—wpaGsr:Ouipnl Government
ras Englishner n, likehaeen hear.)
rt aol)inke' should
urof
elo:vd-rt
was bat fair.— (Cheers.) He was glad to hear that, be-
cause he thought Hon. Members agreed with him; and if it be
true what he had said, then the end would be a general scram-
ble for property; it would be like throwing all the property into
one " Hotch-potch," and then having a general scramble for
the whole of it.—(Hear, hear.) It was quite clear that the
measure was not adapted to meet the existing distress of the
country; the whole scheme was nothing more than a landlord's
scheme, in order to enable them to obtain higher rents for
their property, or to sell to te Government for enormous
prices.—("No, no," and ironical cheers.) Hon. Members
might say, " No, no," but he was determined, if the Bill
should ever go so far as the Committee, he would propose a
clause to the effect that no Irish landlord, being a Member of
either House of Parliament, should receive a single fraction
of the money to be advanced for the purchase of land belong-
ing to them through which the State-made railways should
pass.—(Hear, hear.) He was sorry that the Noble Lord had
not at once refused his assent to the measure. He was
anxious that the division should have taken place that night,
and so have got rid of the measure at once and for ever. The
Noble Lord at the head of the Government would one day
come down and say that he could not support the measure,
and the whole concern would go off at once like the snuff of
a candle; and the Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn, would
have the gratification of having made a very long three hours'
speech, of indulging in the brief glorification of having proposed
a measure bold anal comprehensive to all intents and purposes.
The Noble Lord could not move another step without the per-
,nission of the Government, and he moat cordially hoped that
the Government would at once put a stop to the further pro-
gress of the measure. The House, he was sure, might have
been much better employed than in listening for the last three
hours to a proposition which every body knew would end in
smoke, and the whole thing would be dropped, and never be
heard ef any more.—( Hear, hear. )
Alderman THOMPSON said, that if the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government had Mused to allow the Bill to
be read a first time, he would have been acting unfairly to-
wards the country, especially after the very able, eloquent,
and practical speech made upon the subject by the Noble Lord
who introduced the measure. The Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber for Bath had erroneously stated that the Noble Lord the
Member for Lynn had proposed to tax the people of England.
He proposed no such thing, he did not propose to tax the
people to the amount of a single shilling. All that be asked
was to lend the national creditor 16,000,0001. upon good and
ample secnrits, upon good interest. He certainly thought the
plan of the Noble Lord much more rational than that of the
Gove,nment, who proposed to advance 8,000.000/. and re-
ceive back 10s. in the pound en that sum.—(Loud cheers.)
He felt convinced that when the monied interest out of doors
had heard the scheme of the Noble Lord, they would consider
his measure to be both sound and practical.—(Cheers.) The
reason why private enterprise had not succeeded in Ireland
as in England was, that the gentry and landlords of that
country were induced to become subscribers to the several un-
dertakings, on the expectation of receiving their rents, which
had never been paid, and on the sale of their land which
had never been purchased by the companies.—( Hear, hear.)
With respect to the remarks of the Noble Lord at the head
of the Government, that the railways proposed to be constructed
were in the east and west of Ireland, and could not, therefore,
benefit the people of the southern and the western parts, he
thought that the measure would have the effect •f inducing
those numerous relief committees which were about to be ap-
pointed, to send those able-bodied poor who might
apply to them for relief, into the southern and western districts
—to those parts where labour was to be obtained ; and he sin-
cerely hoped that the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern-
ment would not bring forward any technical ob-
jection upon the money clauses of the Bill.—( Hear.)
Mr. POULETT SCROPE did 'not think that the arguments
advanced by the Noble Lord (Bentinck) were so overwhelm-
ingly absurd as the Hon. Member for Bath supposed, and he
was, therefore, of opinion that the course proposed by the
Noble Lord (J. Russell), in not opposing the first reading of the
Bill, was the proper one, inasmuch as it would give the House
an oppisrtunity of considering the applicability of the measure
to the circumstances of Ireland. He thought, therefore, the
Noble Lord had exercised a wise discretion in not suppressing
the discussion in lir:Line. As far as he (Mr. Scrope) understood
Hon. Member for Bath, he believed the leading scheme of that
the it would be impossible for Ireland, to
Hon. Member was, that
go on any longer as she was, and that it only was by a combi-
tion of great and extraordinary measures that any change or
effecte, if there was a chance of
permanent benefit could b
Mr e
P . . Scrope) put forward a measure
He himself (
success. be attended with very great advan-
which he considered would
pe of reand, and
tage in ameliorating the condition of the
it foreowar pld I
lea al nostrum
he was taunted with putting
or panacea for all the ills
to which that country was
twar the Eglish poor-law as the
subjected. He never pu
undern which that country
sole remedy for the grieforvancesd
t would have any such
laboured, for he never believed that
measures to
effect, unless there were other accompanying
Member for Tamworth and
develop its resources. The Hon.
1 terference wi th
the Hon. Member for Bath deprecated t
ole in
f the expediency of
the ordinary sources of industry, spoke
%cotton. ow,
leaving commercial enterprise to private e
thou ht that this
under ordinary circumstances, he ( Mr. Scrope)g
ir
would be a proper course, but under the peculiarcumstances
c
in which Ireland was placed, be held it wholly inapplicable.
They could never proceed by the usual rules of commercial
polity, in their exertions to improve tho condition of
.Ireland.
The Noble Lord (J. Russell) talked of giving food in certain mei
without exacting labour. Now lie willied to knout how the

laboureraosttswprweae•oeasrure to be employed? He very much feared that,
neither the Government nor the Irish proprietors would be able
to absorb all this labour. The first condition for the devolopment
of Irish private enterprise, that is to say, the security of per-
sonal property, was wanting, and until that was secured, private
enterprise would never flow into Ireland. How could they
expect it to do so? The House might recollect the statement
made in a report on Ireland by Mr. Nicol, and presented to
the House in 1837, which was to the effect, that to give em-
ployment to labour capital was wanted, and to procure capital
security was necessary. That was the cycle and the order in
which they proceeded. The Noble Lord (J. Russell) proposed
to employ some money in drainage, and to employ another
portien in a plan which he (Mr. Scrope) would like to see
carried into effect—the reclamation of the waste lands.
But he thought, if the Noble Lord would extend
his plan to give assistance to railways, it would be a good addi-
tion. Under such a plan is that brought forward to-night by
the Noble Lord (Bentinck), he could not but believe that it
would be attended with the best results. He would ask, how
could they go on to feed the people as paupers, as they did at
present? The voluntary employment given by the landlords of
Ireland and the proposed measures of the Noble Lord, would
not absorb the labour of the country, and he could not there-
fore but believe that a system of railways would be very
beneficial in giving employment. He did not intend to trespass
upon their attention, but when such assertions were made with
respect to the introduction of capital into Ireland he could not
refrain frees pointing out how erroneous such principles were,
for he believed by this course of proceeding, they would, in ten
years hence, be in the same condition as they were at present.
Colonel WOOD regretted the course taken by the Noble
Lord (Bentinck) and thought the arguments used by the Noble
Lord (J. Russell) in opposition to the proposal, were unanswen
sble. In no country did the Government undertake
the construction of railways. In France, where this interfer-
ence was said to exist, they were given to contractors. The
people of England had already evinced their desire to assist the
people of Ireland, but he thought they were not prepared to
accede to the proposal of lending money for the construction of
railways. He was prepared to support the Government plans
for the alleviation of the distress which prevailed in that coun-
try, but he could not bring himself to support a measure which
must ultimately fall upon the resources of this country.
Mr. HUNIE thought that the Noble Lord ought to have
stated the reasons why the former proposal of a similar kind had
not been acceded to by the late Government. The Hon.
Member then read a letter from Mr. Trevellyan to Mr. Labou-
chere, written on the 6th Oct., 1846, in which he stated " that
Mr. Goulburn and Sir R. Peel refused the application of
money for such a purpose, on the ground that it would not go
to the destitute labourer, but to the speculative shareholder."
There was another paragraph of that letter, continued the Hon.
Member, to which he wished to call attention—namely, " that
the only portiou of the money which would be applicable to the
relief of the destitute, was what would be expended on the
earth-works, and this consisted only of one-third of the
whole, the rest being absorbed by engineering, Par-
liamentary, legal, and other expenses." These were the reasons
which induced the late Government In refusing to accede to
the application then made to them ; and be wished the Noble
Lord had used those arguments in his speech, for he (Mr.
Hume) believed they were perfectly convincing. There could
be no doubt, if these railroads did not turn out productive, they
would become a charge upon the resources of this country.
The comparisons which the Noble Lord (Bentinck) made with
respect to the relative returns of railroads in this country and
in Ireland- were not to be depended on ; nor did ho believe
that the anticipated advantages would ever be rea-
lised. He regretted that railroads had tint been introduced
earlier into Ireland. When that question was first introdueed
to the House he strongly supported the propriety of construct-
ing the trunk lines, believing as he did that the expenditure
they would occasion would be of great advantage to the labour-
ing classes, as well as to the commercial and trading interests
of the country. He was in a minority on that occasion ; and
he believed the Irish county Members were most strenuous in
their opposition to it. Now he did not use that as an argu-
ment why assistance should be refused now, but looking at the
arguments used by Mr. Trevellyan, and the other circum-
stances of the cases,
_ he could not bring himself to the proposal,
as lie thought no benefit would result. He was, therefore,
bound to regard it as the Hon. Member for Bath did—a debt
which would hereafter fall upon this country. His Hon. Friend
(Mr. P. Scrope) said that they were not to deal with Ireland
on commercial principles, and that the laissez faire principle
would not do He agreed with him that the lais.tez faire
would not do there, nor anywhere else; but there was
no evidence that the original causes of the present condition of
that country were to be removed, and until this was the case
he did not think that commercial principles ought to be consi-
dered as inapplicable. He was informed by several Irishmen
that the removal of obstruetions to the sale of encumbered
estates, and the modification of the law of entail, would lay the
foundation of great future good. Ile would say, then, let the
land be free, and apportioned out in from 300 to 500 acres, and
he would engage that it would be sold for twenty-eight years'
purchase. That was given for land during the last few months.
capital would be introduced, and
the purchasers • iangd ws.uld develop the capabilities of
mode of
toLfwepotl
urtotlhhdceei
hsnee,ilhf
eeewn
do utlhdastaiyt ,
wouldthe
give commercialprincipinstantaneousle
tbohpyeertcahotiiinintarooydd.
thelubtehset
mmevaanntsimoef,
believing
gatitnhgat the
e
would not be successful iii realising
: planceoninpdi iootyfumi
the
ofen t employment,
heeahnide bpeople.Lordn
what was expected from it, he considered that it was wrong to
hold out such expectations to the people of Ireland. He thought
the Government should continue their exertions to alleviate
the calamity which had visited that country, and, at the same
time, to impress upon the landlords the necessity of discharging
their duties. He would also propose that the Government
should deal directly with the people of Ireland without the
instrumentality of the Lord-Lieutenant, for he believed that these
measures lost their force in consequence of this intermediate
system of administration. Believing, as he did, that the pro-
posed measure for the construction of railways, if agreed to,
would only produce temporary good, while it would entail last-
ing evil, he would give it his decided opposition.
Mr. GRATTAN said, amongst the exaggerated accounts
which were from time to time put forward with respect to Irish
Members, he should not be in the least surprised, to-morrow,
to find, in the ordinary channels of information, that a party
of Irish gentlemen in the neighbourhood of Whitehall
had been attacked by a passenger by the Bath coach,
who, after having presented a brass blunderbuss at them,
which missed tire, made off.—( Roars of laughter.) Ile had
been twenty years a Member of that House, and he had
never heard the Irish landlords so maligned as they had
been by the Honourable Member for Bath (Mr. Roebuck).
What right had he to attack the resident proprietors who lived
on their estates and spent their money amongst their tenants ?
The Irish landlords did not ask for money ; they had never
asked for any.—( Derisive cheers.) As they seemed to doubt
his assertion, he would tell them, how money was lent
to Ireland, and how it was repaid. The money was lent by
gl
ibee eanp
lb,:
ar
lreodw et
od
Englandby
England t olartel3arpeart
cent.
—c(eittite.o,ra,
the Irish Members to corroborate the truth of this assertion.—e
( Hear.) It appeared that 330 loans had been ado
tx7l. Iwra-
fhteerar. Navin
Ire-
land, three-fourths of which had been paid bacfk.
whichB had been
repaid with five per cent. interest. Altogether
lent to the county of Kerry, every shilling
derisive cheers.) Now
balance unpaid of 231,000/.—(Hear, and
forward
with what face could the Hon. Member for Bath
of
967,7551. had
been lent, 755,7391. of which had been
come[repaid,leanveiynghaadi
and charge the Irish landlords with mendacity.
they should attack him in earnest.—( Laug it.er.
Bill to
said he wished to have a clause introduced into the
listened to his attacks as yet very good humioured)ly,Tbhuetnnohe.
prevent Irish landlords from having any part of the money which
was to be voted ; but they never got any of the money which
England had debited her with. Then he talked of Irish
gold. He (Mr. Grattan) remembered the time when there
was money in the Irish Exchequer. Now, no doubt the Hon.
Member was conversant with history ; he would, therefore, put
this question to him—Who took it ? Was it the Irish Mem-
bers or the Irish landlords who took it? No ; it was the So-
vereign of the country of which he (Mr. Roebuck) was one
of the representatives—it was taken by the English Sovereign.
But what became of the English gold sent to Ireland ? Was
it sent for virtuous purposes which they should espouse? or
to promote industry ? or to uphold the honour of the country 7.
No such thing. It was sent there for the purpose of briberoy,a d
with that gold, and to undermine her independence. But let
his
50 generals and subalterns were poured into the country t bribethenm
take it back again. There was a God in heaven, who,
nowb
wrath, would avenge such conduct.
they had been brought on their knees before the I h
and that they must do justice to those whom
furies so grievously oppressed. The Hon. Mon e beef
ex-
that the Irish were now to be fed on Eng
pense of England, but every cow imported
prised several persons of employment.i--(
but how much gold
was taken out of Ireland and spent in rattigeroan,
talked of English gold going into Ireland 'lend ? A list
which
was in his possession showed that a gentleman
a estate ; another
7,000/. a year which he derived.
in
the
same
way ; in
having property in Sligo, spent 7,0 g"
0 000/, and a number of
Longford, 5,0001., in Waterford, 4 , _
' nt state if etc had had
would net have reduced Ireland to her present
any back to support her ; but as
the soil belonged spent its produce elsewhere'
hese
the sky to the earth. In Wicklow,
He had read much,
in so bad a condition as in other partese.ootry
could make laws
and had arrived at the opinion that no
therefore he hoped their
lived, the inhabitants, notwithstandingwthe ealaiTntY,
to
see eTailhweyaysi
which would be suitable to another,en
would legislate for herself. Al-
the union would be
had een made in the criminal
though many modificationsl penal enactments. Let them not
Code, yet it contannedsezeeralr,,h,
I but of the misgovernment
speak of the idleness of h
childrenr
e p ealed , waonudl d
whenlivet o
Isreeel
atohda t da y h
to have reduced the constituencies
Reform Bill as
as thirty or forty. Through these and
of Ireland to as few
le had been destroyed and demoral. ed,
other causes the Pen!) '
of that House, and of those who had so denuded the
e their distresses, they would npoondouobtPa
30,000,0001• re
to Cromwell, and to " send the Irish across the
glad to act like
e They could not fail, ere long, to rue their • MIS-
Shannon.
ld not call the remarks of the Hon. Member
and no doubt wlhiee,n, they had been called u t "
deeds. He would
er e
of Ireland ; he had even been g lty
• n of the shrivelledadder.—( Hear, hear, and
dripping poison of the shrivelled adder.—(Hear, hear, and
lauithter.) Th t
a Hon. Member, however, had not always
for Bath satire, he could not call themvirulent, but rath th
laughter.)
ttlYsedition, as in 1835 he •d h - 'l'
- • of
sal t at America
and obtained her independence, and advised
had fought for
r example. Many an Irishman had been
hung to follow he
than that.
saying far less He now came to deal with
hung for say
(Laughter.) The late IS
d made o
t wi na
nt Ireland.
nney
Ir. Drummond, who
common sense.—
ahtofipevde
pthere
eGenet-.
stated, ma *
at philanthropist,ny years ago, to adeputa-
lel:: advantages ':a very
tion that waited
anxious
snt would net reject the Bill, educe it would
best profitable
employment
to the country.
- dat three
which they had borrowe
was the common sense of
ofEngland, the economy of Scotland,
and the sterling honesty the people of Ireland.—( Cheers.)
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL hoped that the House would
now as it had done on other cases of
have acted emergency,
day to day for
and have sat from , the purpose of passing, with-
out the slightest delay, the Bills which the Government had
introduced on their own responsibility. Ile thought. sincerely,
that some such proceeding ought to have been adopted on the
present occasion. Why was Wednesiay last lost? Why had
the greater part of that day been lost —or why a single hour
lost, when the distress in Ireland threatened the safety of the
empire? He, therefore, implored the House to consider
whether it would not be well to meet the calamity by the
constant sitting of the House, and by pressing forward, with
the least possible delay, the measures which the Government
had brought forward for the purpose of affoi ding relief to
the people of Ireland.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") The
measure of the Noble Lord might be a good one, or it
might be a bad one. There was certainly much speciousness
Memberss
ea o.
nng,
rTeoe
orhwneahs
at
T 1 °I.
totols:loss
i la tookssooof
:5110::000soisi
nem:
oteot i
onnt h, eantnhro
d6et other i
subject,
1 nnob
jmligetne:
c iydt)tl ,i. r,
so, If hfttstflhhaphlsoombueeterci , i
knhcetnygrtahrel
eontnandhelsrstihyi
r a.,enbso:deddrtfil
rl
aEwofaafpt:ennt,hnenolehdr.
fell
,dtggiyaec,
lfrltghrortladeht
not
lived, of
in it as laid baize the House ; but he would ask him not to
persevere in it until those measures proposed by the Govern-
ment to meet the emergency of the time had been sanctioned.
The Government were responsible; in Heaven's name let them
not divide that responsibility with them by delaying such
projects as they believed essential. While they were de-
bating the people were starving.—(
made. He would have the House
ht
toe side of the Irish Members that starving.—(Hear,
heetnaatra,irnhkteetahm_ra.pt)e
riatAnweengsobonedgoatdneoi
of time had been already lost, a good deal of the present night
had also been lost, and very intemperate speeches had been
it commenced on the side of the Hon. Member for Bath,
whose position he did not consider was in the least enviable.
Ho (Mr. I. O'Connell) did not think, if his mind was
right, that his conscience could be easy.--( Laughter.)
H. did not think a right-241M sin would have thrown int*

the discussion the torch of useless discord. The people of Ire-
land were perishing by hundreds; their representatives had
come there with the sincerest desire and wish to repress every-
thing of an angry nature. He would ask the Hon. Member,
in the name of humanity, to permit these Bills to be passed.
He could then give notice of a day OA which he would pour
forth his vile slanders, and they would then be ready to refute
and answer him. The Hon. Member for Montrose bad said
that there had been numberless remittances of money to Ire-
land. He held a Parliamentary paper in his hand, which he
had moved for himself, which proved that since the union
there had been a surplus received from Ireland of nearly
twenty millions of money, and that only up to the year 1845.
He also found that about eighteen millions had been
advanced by way of loan to England and Scot-
land, out of which six millions two hundred thousand
had been repaid. While there had been nine millions lent to
Ireland, out of which seven millions had been repaid. England
and Scotland had repaid six millions out of eighteen millions.
Ireland out of nine millions, within the same period, had re-
paid seven millions. He would ask the Honourable Mem-
ber, in the name of common manhood, to abstain
from his most envenomed and slanderous attacks. Until the
measures calculated to relieve the calamity which existed had
been passed. They would then have a short time to throw
away, and if he would come forward and state his case, they
pledged teemselves to refute him in every particular, or con-
sent to acknowledge themselves the abject creatures he would
paint them.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. HUDSON did not intend to detain the House at any
length, and he had only risen to express his complete concur-
rence in the proposal of his Noble Friend the Member for Lynn,
and to express his deep regret that the Hon. Member for Bath
had irtroduced into a grave and ccmmercial question matters
wholly irrelevant. It certainly was much to be desired that
the Hon Member would take to himself an evening to exhaust
his undigested bile.—(Hear, hear.) He considered that the
Noble Lord (John Russell) was entitled to their
thanks for the manner in which he received the
proposition, which, when carried out, he trusted
would lay the foundation of the future prosperity
of Ireland. He did consider that the country was much in-
debted to the Noble Lord for the manner in which he had met
the proposal, and he hoped that it would receive from
him that patient consideration which it manifestly de-
served, and that when he came to look at the state-
ments and figures, he would fully find that they were
borne out by fact ; indeed, for their accuracy, he was
quite willing to pledge himself. Let the House remember
that they were not about to introduce the principle of for-
warding public works by loans of money. The Hon. Member
for Montrose would recollect the Caledonian canals.—(Great
laughter.) Although the country from which he came was
not backward in enterprise. There was one principle
involved in the Bill, which eminently recommended it,
and that was, that he believed in his conscience that
the country would not lose one sixpence by passing the measure.
They were not going to tax the people to raise the money, as
had been erroneously stated, they were only about to lend the
national credit. The Noble Lord had said that it would be an
interference with private enterprise, but the Noble Lord would
not surely contend that there was any chance of these rail-
ways being executed by private enterprise. The Govern-
ment by adopting the measure of the Noble Lord would only
be following out the principle which was pursued in France.
France lent her money for the execution of public works—
they would be thus enabled to model their system upon that of
the French, which had been desired by (early. He had con-
siderable experience in these undertakings.; he had watched their
progress and their development ; he had seen a barren country
into which they had entered became fruitful; he had seen
civilisation spreading her blessings around, and social inter-
course very much promoted ; and he knew not why the same
results should not occur in Ireland. It had been urged that
the measure would be a direct benefit to the lauded interest.
Why there was no scheme which could be proposed to benefit a
country, which would not immediately benefit that interest,
and it was right that it should be so.—( Hear, hear. )
"I he Noble Lord had very properly stated, that had not some
assistance been granted by Government to the Liverpool and
Manchester Company, they probably would not have seen it
now completed. But would any one get up and blame Go-
vernment for having given assistance to that line ?—( Hear,
hear, and cheers.) Although that was a time when it
was a speculation, but now the system of railways had
been reduced to almost a practical certainty. He trusted that
the Noble Lord, when he came to the second reading of the
Bill, would deeply consider the measure of the Noble Lord the
Member for Lynn, and give it the kind consideration it de-
serves. He was, however, of opinion, that if the Noble Lord
rejected the measure he was bound to bring forward some
equally practical measure.
Mr. WARBURTON said that the question was, whether
the capital was to be advanced by this country—whether the
English public would, at a period of this kind, engage in a
scheme for advancing sixteen millions for the undertaking
and completion of Irish railways. That was the question
which her Majesty's Government had decided, and he entirely
approved of the decision come to by them—that they would
not, on this occasion, engage in such a scheme. There was
no occasion fur the House to enter into a discussion as to
whether they would enter into the scheme, or ascertafn
whether it was desirable that the capital of England should
be employed in Irish railways.—e Hear.) Occasion might
arise—either for military or police purposes. And was
this a period for this country to engage in undertakings not
likely to be immediately productive? was it a period, when
their garners were full of corn, when there were large que nti-
ties of food available, and money lying idle in the hands of the
capitalists of the country ? They should rather think of em-
ploying the agriculturist and the farmer in the production of
food before such a surplus could be embarked in such specula-
tions. What were the circumstances in which they now found
themselves? They were told that one half of the ordinary
food of Ireland was destroyed, and if capital was to be employed
at all by England, it ought to be employed in setting the Irish
labourers to work to produce for the next harvest a sufficiency
of food to prevent a recurrence of the present cala-
mity. Was there any man of common sense in that
House, or out of it, who could expect any other
than a:distant return from such undertakings as the Noble Lord
proposed to encourage. Would the turning of the soil on rail-
ways produce the potato, barley, oats or wheat, necessary for
the consumption of the Irish people in next August and Sep-
tember, and during the whole of the ensuing year? No man
of sense could say so ; and a Government must be insensate if,
on the present, they engaged in an undertaking of this
kind. Let them look at the enormous undertakings Fngland
herself was already engaged in, in various railways, and while
extraordinary demands were being made on England for the
support of the Irish people, not only for the next year,
but for many seasons to come. According to the arguni3nt
of the Noble Lord, the returns from the Irish railways
were so small, that the sums they proposed to advance them
were only to be paid for by the small interest of 3} per cent.,
so that, under any circumstances, they were not likely grea'ly
to improve the finances of the country. He objected entirely
to any employment of the Irish people exciting in endeavour-
ing to produce food for the next season, and in endeavouring
to avert the great danger of famine which threatened them.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
although many topics had been entered into during the course
of this discussion, and on which many Gentlemen had made
observations, yet he rose on this occasion princi-
pally to make an appeal to those Gentlemen who had
shown a disposition to prolong the debate, and to
request them to abstain from doing so. He thought himself
bound to set a good example in that respect, and abstain from
making any observations on the most able speech in which his
Noble Friend opposite had detailed his plan. His Noble
Friend (Lord John Russell) had already stated the course
which, not only on the present, but on future occasions, he
should feel it his duty to adopt ; and such really being the case,
no possible question could arise that night upon it. Leave
had been given to the Noble Lord to lay his measure before
the House. Of course the Noble Lord had understood that
already there stood for that night a measure for the
practical and immediate relief of distress in Ireland, and
he appealed especially to the Irish Members to second
that Bill which had been already before them ; and not to waste
time on the present discussion, it was of consequence that
Hon. Members should not interfere or create further delay be-
fore that measure was passed, as its object was to give imme-
diate relief to the present necessities of Ireland.
Mr. GOULBURN wished to say a few words on this sub-
ject before it was postponed. The Right Hon. Gentleman,
who had just sat down, had said that the Noble Lord had dis-
tinctly answered the course that he intended to take when the
present Bill should hereafter become a subject for the consider-
ation of the House. He apprehended from what had fallen from
Hon. Members, that the course to be taken by the Noble Lord,
had not been distinctly stated. He thought it essential be-
fore the debate closed, that the House should be informed
on that point, for although his Right Hon. Friend the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had stated that Government bad
avowed its intentions, the House in general was not satisfied
as to the course intended to be pursued. He felt that to leave
in uncertainty a question involving so large an amount of pe-
cuniary interest—(Cheers)—and one likely to lead to great
speculation--(Loud cheers )—which speculation might be seri-
ously affected, was a course open to the greatest possible oljec-
lion, both as regarded the interest of the speculation to
which he had alluded, and the welfare of the very works
Government desired most to promote. Who would advance
money in undertakings of this kind? Who would encourage
them under the present circumstances without distincta
knowledge of the course that Government would take
upon this measure. The sole object ho had in rising was to
call upon the Noble Lord to make that clear which to some
' Members of that House appeared to be obscure. A course at
once essential to the best pecuniary interest and the general
welfare of the people of Ireland.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—In answering to the appeal of my
Right Hon. Friend, who has stated that what I have said was
not perfectly understood by the House, I will repeat my former
statement. I stated to the House that I thought it respectful
to my Noble Friend, and I am now confirmed in that opinion,
to all-ow him to introduce the Bill. I stated that in the future
stage, when, according to the forms of the House, it would be
necessary that the House should go into Committee, for the
purpose of providing the money necessary to carry into effect
this Bill, that on such occasion I thought it in-
cumbent on the Government to take it upon itself
to carry this plan into operation, or at once to put
in the negative to the proposition on the part of the Crown.
I do not think it would be fair for the Noble Lord to stand by
to give merely a formal sanction of the Government, and allow
him to proceed with the Bill in order to reject it on a future
occasion. I stated that whatever might be the course taken by
the Government and by the House, I was not prepared to
carry into effect the plan which my Noble Friend has propose I,
and therefore when he should apply for authority to carry it
into law I should, on the part of the Government, refu e it.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN said he felt he should be wanting,
not only in the duty which he owed to the Noble Lord and to
himself, but also to those whom he represented, if he failed to
take this opportunity, the earliest that offered itself, of thanking
the Noble Lord for his proposal. He thanked him, not so much
much for the proposal itself, as for the spirit in which it had
been offered. It had not been accompanied by that con-
tumely with which what were called boons to Ireland were so
often accompanied. Such was not the spirit of the Hon.
Member for Bath, who, on speaking on this subject, had taken
every opportunity of ridiculing their distresses, however un-
deserving they might be of such ridicule. He had accused the
landlords, the clergy, the middle classes, and the Irish people,
and he left to the House to say, when a country was suffering
from starvation and distress, was that a course to be adopted
by any Hon. Member of that House ? The Hon. Member for
Bath had come forward with his proposition, and what
did it amount to? He had robbed his Honourable
Friend the Member for Stroud of his proposal, and
has indicated his intention of proposing a property tax on Ire-
land, by way of relieving the present neceisities, and told them
to enact a law which had been enacted two years sincee.taken
must say he was inconceivably surprised by the coausras
_finis.
by the Noble Lord. He could not conceive how,
5
ter of the Crown, he should hesitate to allow an advance to
the extent of 16,000,000 i., when his politicahlisanastlotannisetec,aamnde
forward and told him he might rely upon
ut
ch
he measures nour o f
that he would give to him all must
passing the measure, when
.he kndownatnldtatalsl
tr to prevent a
were necessary for the security of the coun y,
state of things next yehartiltieke the present. Why should he not
Noble Lord appeared to think that no
grasp at it? But in truth
relief was of any value to Ireland unless it were totally and
utterly unproductive. The Noble Lord thought that all that
was required was to feed the people. There never was so
monstrous a proposition. What was to become of the 500,000
labourers now unemployed? The Noble Lord said there were
measures proposed to him of a character rendering necessary
less sacrifice of imperial credit on the part of the railways.
He had stated that one proposition had been made to him, re-
"trill ITO million' Of credit to ten millions of capital, and

that the Treasury had at once rejected the proposition. What
had taken place in the county of which he was a member?
All classes were anxious that a certain railway should be
undertaken. They saw the amount of money about to
be expended in an unproductive manner, and they said
let us make a presentation for the railway, and we will take
our chance hereafter of Parliament allowing us to sell or lease
the line." The landed proinietors were prepared to give their
consent to the railway being made through their estates. At the
presentment sessions the proposal was unanimously adopted, but
when it came to be submitted to the Treasury, they had said,
"Oh, no, we must have unproductive works."—(Hear, hear.)
The population of the country would have entered into these
speculations, and paid every farthing of the money borrowed.
And what was now the scheme of the Noble Lord? He now
came down to the same parties, arid said that he would give
them one-half of the advance made by the Imperial Treasury,
when he might have had the whole repaid. He hoped that,
under the new system, we should not see what he had seen in
Clare, where the young women were sometimes working upon
the roads. Ile hoped the Noble Lord would take the earliest
opportunity of moving an address to her Majesty, that this
scheme might be carried into effect. He, fur his own part,
stood there independent of all parties. He had no animosity
against the present Government. He considered him.
self independent of all, and sought only a good
system of legislation for his own country.—( Hear, hear.)
Ile considered the proposition would be of great benefit to the
people of Ireland, and hoped the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government would reconsider the determination he hail come
to, and give it his support. if he did net do so, he ( Mr. S.
O'Brien) was convinced he would be hurled from his present
seat of power.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. LA BOUCHERE expressed his regret at interfering in
the discussion, after what had been said by his Right lion.
Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as he (Mr. Labou-
chere) was desirous that the debate should come to a conclu-
sion as soon as possible, in order that the House might apply
itself to the measures devised by the Government to meet the
present urgent necessities of Ireland.— (Hear, hear.) He had
risen because the Hon. Member who had last addressed the
House had made a mistake, on which he (Mr.
Labouchere) wished to make a remark or two.
The Honourable Member for Limerick stated that
his Noble Friend the Member for the city of Lon-
don had encouraged no works but what were of a useless or un-
productive nature. If it was not in the recollection of the
Hon. Member, it must at least be in the recollection of the
House, that among the measures which his Noble Friend at
the head of the Government had introduced, there was one
which, for the advantage and improvement of Ireland, pro-
posed to pledge the credit of England for at least a million and
a half of money.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) This was a
measure to enable the landowners of Ireland to employ the
people, to relieve the distress which prevailed, and to cause the
cultivation of the soil for the next harvest.—( Hear, hear.) It
was therefore a most extraordinary mistake to say that
the policy of the Government, and especially that of
the Noble Lord at the head of it, was to give no
encouragement to measures of a productive nature, but only
to forward such as were of a useless and inexpedient character.
So far from that, his Noble Friend was desirous of encouraging
works that would benefit the great body of the Irish people,
and not to construct works that would go into the hands 01
speculators.—( Hear, hear.) There was another statement of
the Hon. Member for Limerick which was extremely calculated
to mislead the House, and which also required some explana-
tion. He had stated that the Government had refused its
sanction to presentments made at the baronial sessions for the
construction of railway works. He (Mr. Labouchere) would
tell the circumstances under which a refusal had been made,
and he would then ask the House whether the Government
had not done perfectly right in the matter. The line for which
a presentment grant was wanted was one for which no Act of
Parliament had been obtained.—( Hear, hear ) Would it have
been right, he asked for the Government, to ride over all the
Acts of Parliament which were passed last session,
and have sanctioned a grant to a private line of this des-
cription ? Their conduct would have been most inexcusable
had they done so. But there could be no fear of injustice
charged against the Government; when they had always been
most willing, if a fair cause for assisting a railway, for which an
Act had been obtained, was made out at a present-
ment session, to allow the grant for the exe-
cution of earth work and embankments.—( Hear, hear.)
The principle of a Treasury minute issued on the 16th October,
1846, was to this effect. It stated that the Government was
prepared to give its sanction to presentments for the earth work
of railways, providing there was a sufficient case made out.
There were several conditions, which he need not go through,
but there was one to .the effect, that advances should be made
but to railways for which Acts of Parliament had been ob-
tained.—( Hear, hear.) It would have been manifest injustice,
after agreeing to so many railway Bills last session, to pass
them by, and to advance sums on lines got up by private par-
ties. To have acted otherwise than the Government had
done, would have been to create great confusion.—( Hear,
hear.) Nothing but the statement of the Hon. Member for
Limerick had induced him to address the House, and having
made these explanations, he trusted the House would allow the
discussion to drop for the present, and go on with those pras-
tical
measures of the Government which were now anxiously
awaiting the decision of the House.—( Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of GRANBY had no desire to protract the
present debate, but he could not avoid rising to express,his
assent to the proposition of the Noble Lord, the Member for
Lynn. He did not think that railways were an unmitigated
good; there was a considerable amount of evil mixed up with
them. At the same time, he thought, if ever there was a
country where the benefits would be great, and the evils few,
he believed that country was Ireland; and at no time could
the advantages of this kind of communication be better in-
troduced than at present. He had no intention to go into
the argument at present, but would content himself with thank-
ing the Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn, for the measure he
had introduced.
Mr. al UNTZ would ask the Hon. Member for Kendal
whether it was right to oppose this measure when the people
of Ireland were starving in thousands? He (Mr. Munts)
was of opinion that it was better to lay aside principle than to
allow the people to die.—( Hear, hear.) It appeared in that
House that the exercise of benevolence was made to depend on
the colour of the skin. It was not long since they had voted
twenty millions to liberate the West India blacks, but now
they talked of adhering to the principles of political economy,
when the health and lives of millions were at stake.—( Hear. )
It was not a question of giving they had to consider—it was
one of lending, the object being to construct railways as far as
they were required by the wants of the country, and no fur-
ther.—( Hear, hear.) This was the real point to be considered
by the House. He thought the measure of the Noble Lord
the Member for Lynn would do great good, and therefore he
hoped the Noble Lord at the head of the Government would
reconsider the question.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. COLLETT supported the motion of the Noble Lord
the Member for Lynn. He did not think the present discus-
sion was abstracting the attention of the House from measures
of immediate importance, as he believed the proposition under
consideration would, it agreed to, be the means of extensively
employing the people. Though he might be considered as
being an interested party, he would inform the House, that if
the proposition of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn was
agreed to, he could, on the railways with which he was con-
nected, employ, by Monday next, 50,000 persons. He be.
lieved the Government had not studied the question of rail-
ways, else they would not have expressed the de-
c:sion they had done that night.—(Hear, hear. )
If Government wished to interfere in the matter of railways,
they could, at that moment, purchase all the lines in Ireland at
par, and he (Mr. Collett) would be most happy to dispose of
his interest at the same rate.—( Laughter.) He was no be-
liever in the utility of Government management, but if the
Noble Lord desired to try the working of the scheme, he (Mr.
Collett) could dispose of a railway which had already received
the sanction of the House, and which was intended to run
through the wilds of Tipperary.—(Shouts of laughter.) He
repeated, that if the Government advanced the necessar)
funds on the rate of interest contemplated in the measure of
the Noble Lord. be (Mr. Collett) would be ready to engage
50,000 able-bodied men, in the course of the succeeding week,
all he would require would be the Government permission, and
by the next post he would address a letter to Mr. Dnngan, the
contractor, who would, the following Monday, find employ-
ment for the number of persons he had stated.—(Cheers.) He
had no hesitation in giving the names of the railways in which
these men would be set at work. He would employ, let them
say, in round nnmbers, on the Dundalk and Enniskillen, 5,000
men ; on the Belfast Junction, 7,00 i ; on the Great Southern
and Western, 7,000; on the same railway, in the distressed
portions of Cork, 10,000; on the Kilkenny portion of the line,
3,000 ; on the Killarney Junction, 3,000 ; and the remainder
on the other lines, 15,000.
Mr. M. GORE thought that another mode of providing
employment for the population of the Irisa seaboard, in his
opinion even preferable to railways, would be, to encourage
fisheries.—(Cheers.) He had received accounts from the
Galway coast that the fishermen of Claddagh were in a fearful
state of destitution, and he thought that the distress might be
greatly lessened if the Government took measures to extend
the fisheries of Ireland.
Mr. GROG AN said that as the Treasury minute, founded
on Mr. Labouchere's letter, had been referred to by an Hon.
and Learned Member in an earlier part of the evening, he
begged leave to make one or two observations upon it. He
could assure the House that, as far as beneficial works were
concerned, that minute had remained a dead letter.—( Hear,
hear.) The minute was in itself good, but the conditions
which wer • annexed to it crippled its utility, and there was,
therefore, no single instsnce in which it could be alleged in
which a railway compa y had taken advantage of the proffer
of the Government. Ile had not intended to trouble the
House, but felt it his duty to refer to this matter as it had
been so prominently brought before them by the Hon. and
Learned Member opposite.
Mr. MORGAN JOHN O'CONNELL would not have
troubled the House that evening were it not that he
believed that no other opportunity would be given them of
discussing the question, for be believed that it would be cut
short on the second reading. He was afraid that the Govern.
ment had not given this question a proper consideration.—
( Hear, hear.) If it were possible that the measure introduced
by the Noble Lord could in any degree endanger the finances
of the country he should be as loath to advocate the measure
as any representative of a Scottish or English constituency.
—( Cheers.) But with the supervision that was to be exer-
cised over those works he was assured that the Government
might safely advance the sums required by way of loan at 3/1
interest, and the repayment could be as well guaranteed by
Irish railways as by any other species of public works. While
he thanked the Government for the intentions they had mani-
fested towards the people of Ireland, he still thought that
they might have adopted other and more beneficial measures
by the encouragement of productive instead of comparatively
useless works.—( Hear, hear.) He also thanked Hon. Members
for the good feelings they had evinced towards Ireland, and if
he but glanced at the expressions of those Hon. Members who
dissented from the measure introduced by the Noble Lord
(Lord George Bentinck ) that evening, and he more parti-
cularly referred to an Hon. and Learned Member who sat on
the same side with himself, it was only to express his regret,
that in the present unfortunate condition of Ireland, th.edy,hanydre
more particularly the Hon. and Learned Member, I
feelings of Irish Membets.
He
could
execsited no gnation
made use of expressions which were so calculatedassure
thetsoh should have
andke
Learned Member that those expressions e
more honest feeling, that of pity—(
'eerwhich had
in his breast—(Hear, hear )—they only
_etxcitse)d_athhaitgliheirs
in-
veterate restlessness of temper —a restlessness proved
soas aallleatlslaetvner—y sobnem.—id
s
induce
p otrot
attackuhniistys,utcnces
(Laughter.) They read in Homer that Thersites was listened
grea ht im an
, obstructionat every o
to by the Greeks, but alter all, the fame of Thersites was very
ephemeral, and he believed that the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber would not be more successful in his endeavours to attain
popularity.
Mr. HAMILTON also felt compelled to refer to the Tree
bsuyrethdethHatonin.
tlleemb-
Awirh.icGhrlntgadanb)e,enfnarllhuedefedlttoa
er
sfou;YDmubinliuntee
pre-
sent condition of the Irish people it would prove totally inope-
rative, and the Treasury Cdmmissioners had no power to carry
it into effect. The. Right Hon. Gentleman opposite seems in-
clined to ascribe mercenary motives to the Irish Members. He
did not know by what scale the Hon. Member for Bath mea-
sured the conduct of those who came from Ireland, but this
much he would assert, that there was no set of men whose
conduct was more directed by disinterestedness and consistent
integrity. The Noble Lord who introduced this measure
seemed to desire that the resources of Ireland sheuld tee
available for the imprevi men, of the country .-.
the credit of England —( Hear, hear)
.When at the
close 'lf last year the entire failure of the potato crop
had se, vs r. that the resources of that country were likely to be
of little assistance , a deputation, of which he was a member,
had waited upoi.l the secretary for Inland, Sir MGM free-

mantle, and had pointed out that this was the means by which
the resources of Ireland might he made available for overcom-
ing the difficulty. The deputation bad laboured to impress him
with the necessity, that this was the only means by winch em-
ployment could be found for the peasantry, and that it cond
only be used through the influence of British capital.--(Cheers)
The Hon. Member for Bath seemed to m sunderstand the
measure of the Noble Lord (Lord G. Bentinck), but he (Mr.
Hamilton) believed that this was the only means by which the
burdens of the country could be lightened.—( Cheers.) They
should recoll,ct that they had an army of 500,000 men in their
pay. The Dreinafp Act, which had just been passed, useful
as it was, would, in six weeks, or two months be quite
inoperative ; and where then would be found the
employment for the labourer, either in draining or
on the public works ? The House should recollect
that the Treasury commissioners had reported, in 1836, that
there were five labourers employed in Ireland for two in Eng-
land. If thew were kept on the public works the cultivation of
potatoes would be completely lost. They must therefore find
support for the labourer ; and where was the employment that
was to earn that support to be found ? He could not, there-
fore, perceive any means better than those which would be
found in the measures proposed by the Noble Lord, for that
measure would have the effect of procuring ample employment
for the Irish labourer. They had the experience of Sir John
Alacneil, the most eminent engineer that had been engaged on
the railways in Ireland, who had stated that the Irish labourer
was equal to any man in the exertion which he makes when em-
ployed upon railway works. When they first came on the
works they were generally in a destitute condition. In England,
but few farm labourers left their usual occupation to obtain
employment on railways, but in Ireland the case was different, for
there they ran to obtain it with avidity. When they first
came they were half famished, badly clothed, and in a state of
destitution ; but shortly after they had obtained this employ-
ment they were altogether altered. He believed that the
measure of the Noble Lord would have the effect of removing
this evil; and, in the words of Sir J. .11acneil, once remove the
desolateness of their condition, and the Irish labourer would be
found to be altogether altered in character. He could not,
therefore, but believe that this measure would altogether im-
prove the social condition of the Irish labourer.
Captain HARRIS believed that an intimation had been held
out by the Government that arsenal depots would be formed in
Ireland, and he much wished to see a naval depot at Cork.
He should like to see the correspondence on the subject.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—The correspondence is already on
the table.
An Holz. MEniaea was glad this question had been brought
forward; fur though he spoke in no hostility to the Govern-
ment, he still thought that the measure proposed by the Noble
Lord was the one best adapted for improving the condition of
the Irish labourer.
After a few words from Colonel VERNER,
Lord JOHN MANNERS said, after an observation that
had fallen from the Hon. Member to the effect that this mea-
sure was brought forward to harrass Government, he wished
to disabuse their minds of such an impression. He did most
sincerely trust. that should the House pass by a majority the
second reading of this Bill, that her Majesty's Government
will not think it incumbent upon them to interpose the prero-
gative of the Crown to stop the Bill, which the Irish people and
I the people of this country believed to be of the utmost im-
portance to Ireland. Should Government contemplate
that course, he would just remind them that it was not so long
ago since they witnessed in another place the introduction of
that prerogat've, and they ail knew with what final success.—
, ( Hear, hear.) He took the liberty of saying these few words
. in no spirit of hostility to Government. and his earnest hope

was that Government ;timid take up the measure, and carry it
forward as their own.—( Hear, hear. )
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
Mr. ROEBUCK requested the House to listen to him for
not more than five rninwea. ile he gave a!, answer 'o some
observations which had !alien from several Hon. Gentlemen;
and he addressed himself. first, to the Hon. 11, mber for Kerry.
When that Hon. Gentleman sat down, ho (Mr. Roebuck)
took the liberty to torn round, and say, " May I take the
liberty of asking whether you heard the speech I ma-:e this
afternoon?" " Some of it," replied the Hon. Gentleman,
" but I confess 1 took the greater part of it on credit." So
all the compassion, all the feelings the Hon. Gentleman had
for him was "on credit." That was precisely the sort of way
in which all gentlemen were accustomed to deal with others
who were, he was afraid, careless its their modes of assertion,
He (Mr. Roebuck) appealed to the House to recollect the
manner and language of his address. He had very strong
objection to the employment of money in the way proposed by
the Noble Lord. He had stated his reasons for that opinion.
saying that he sincerely believed it would be doing mis-
chief to the people of England, and no good to
the people of Ireland. He bad gone on to say,
what he sincerely believed, that Ireland had suffered
immense injury from appealing to the generosity of this
House insteadiof trusting to herself; and he could not help
feeling that, as no immediate benefit could arise in the way of
immediate relief to the poor of Ireland, this measure could
only have a beneficial effect upon the landed proprietors of that
country. He had stated his opinion, as he now did, plainly.
simply, and without circumlocution, as was his habit, without
one harsh phrase or one harsh word.—(" No, no ;" " Order!")
[ Mr. Osbcone—You said you would propose to put a clause
In the Bill. j He considered it of the greatest importance f
the dignity of this House that its Members should be entirely
above suspicion, and that none of the money intended for the
people of Ireland should be partitioned among persons having
a seat in this House or the other. In regard to the remarks
of the Hon. Member for Meath, he was not accusing the Hon
Gentleman of running away ; but if he wanted, in a ward, to
characterise the Hon. Gentleman's speech properly, he should
say that it was a " frantic " speech. He asked the House
whether he had employed a single phrase that could possibly
warrant the wholesale vials of wrath that bad bees
poured over his head. He now repeated what be
said then, that he had a duty which he owed to
his constituents. He had been reproved for not doing his
duty as a Member of that House to Ireland, but he had also
other duties towards those whom he represented. The Hon.
Gentleman had accused him (Mr. Roebuck) of malignity, and
had at the same time styled him a " shrivelled adder."—( Loud
laughter.) The Hon. Gentleman had condescended to expend
his sarcasms upon his (Mr. Roebuck's) unfortunate form,.
a thing that he should be ashamed to do do in return._
(Laughter. ) Yes, the Hon. Gentleman had called him " a
shrivelled adder." Was that not " a frantic exhibition of im-
potent indignation ?" The adder could bite and sting, and the
poor ox that he did sting felt the small reptile to be a very
dangerous enemy.—( Hear.) But the sting of what he had
said had not been in the sharpness of his phrase, or the mode
in which he had chosen to put it, but in the truth of his as-
sertions.—( Cheers.) He had always found that when he
wanted to drive anything sharp home, when he wanted it to
bite, he edged it with truth. That was the way to make it
hang, and he felt that he had hit the white mark on this occa-
sion, because certain Hon. Gentlemen felt it so strongly, and
became to angry.—(" Heat, hear," and a laugh.)
Colonel RA WDON felt surprised at the language that had
been used by the Hon. and Learned Memb,•r for Bath, or that
such language should have been uttered in that House. That
Honourable Member had told the House that the
Honourable Member for Kerry had heard what he
(Mr. Roebuck) had said on credit. Now he (Colonel Raw-
don) had heard the Hon. Member, and imparted what he had
heard to the lien. Member for Kerry. He appealed to the
high and generous feeling of that House, if any Gentleman,
who heard him propose a clause, that no Member should ap-
propriate ally portion of the money to be voted by that House,
if he would not feel justly indignant, were he alluded to,
as the Irish Members were. Could anything be more insult-
ing.—( Hear, hear,) It had been strongly supposed that the
Honourable Member for Bath was the hired advocate of
ruffians.—( Order, order.)
The SPEAKER here called the Hon. Member to order.
Colonel RA WDON did not intend to commit a breach of
order, but he felt strongly the insult of the Hon. Member for
Bath.-- ( Hear, hear. )
Mr. F. FRENCH said the Hon. Member for Bath had
benefited by the alteration in his tone, and, as for the rest of
the lion. Gentleman's speech, it could not be complained of
by them (the Irish Members).
Mr. GRATTAN would like to know whether one Member
had a right to charge another with intending to put the public
money into his own pocket ?—(A laugh.) For himself,
nothing was likely to come into his pocket through the rail-
ways. but when a Member of that House once charged Mr.
Tierney with having his pockets stuffed with public money, he
rather thought that the Right Hon. Gentleman's (the
Speaker's) predecessor called that Member to order, and that
when he next appeared in his place he received a very good
jobation—( A laugh)—for making use of such an expression.
The Hon. Member for Bath ought to receive a similar jobation,
but he hoped this idle discussion would net be renewed, and
that the Bill would be suffered to be brought in at once.
After a few words from Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN,
The Bill was brought in by Lord G. BENTINCK, amid
general cheering from both sides of the House, and was read a
first time.
On the motion of Sir B. HALL, the following returns were
ortlered:—" Return of the income on which the assessment is
made for the relief of the poor in every union in Ireland ; the
dates of any assessments ordered to be levied since March,
1846 ; the rate in the pound sterling of such assessments, and
the amount collected and expended : of the amount of any sub•
scriptions for the relief of the poor in every union in Ireland,
distinguishing, 1, the balance (if an ) remaining from the sub-
scriptions of 1845 and 1846 ; 2, private subscriptions advanced
by owners, lessors, and occupiers of property within each union;
3, subscriptions received from other sources ; 4, amount from
public grants. Of the amount of deposits in the several sav-
ing's-banks in Ireland or► the Ist day of January, 1846, and the
Ist day of January, 1847. Of the amount of poor-rates levied
under the provisions of statutes of the Imperial Parliament for
England and Wales, in each year since 1840; stating the
amount in the pound sterling in each union. Similar return
of the amount levied in Ireland.
TENANT RIGHTS (IRELAND).

Mr. S. CRAWFORD said, that is it was his object to have
a fair discussion upon the motion of which he had given notice
for to-night, on the subject of tenant right, he would not pro-
ceed with it at the present late hour of the night, but would
postpone it until Thursday next.
DESTITUTE POOR (IRELAND).
On the order of the day for going into Committee of the
whole House,
Lord CLEMENTS called the attention of the House to a
recent letter of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for
the Home Department, fur tha purpose of entering his protest
against the police having anything to do with the relic( com-
mittees. It would be to take them from their proper duties to
put them to others for which they were unfitted.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said, that in the letter referred to it
was announced that the head of the constabulary force in Ire-
land should form one of the central superintending committees;
and he would add, that that appointment had been made by
the Government, not merely because, as the head of the con.
stabulary, he must necessarily be a most useful and important
member of that committee, but also became the character of
Colonel 111. Gregor stood so high in Ireland, he was so generally
respected, as to render it unnecessary for him (Mr. Labou.
there) to pass any eulogium upon him.
Lord CLEMENT, disclaimed any intention of saying any-
thing touching on Colonel M' Gregor's character, of whom no
person, either in or out of the House, could entertain a higher
opinion than he himself did.
The order of the tray was then read, and the House resolved
itself ii,to a Committee of the whole House.
Tne ANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved a
resolution authorising a grant of 300,0,101 from the Consoli-
dated Fund on the security it the rates to be levied under the
Destitute Poor (Ireland) Bill. The Right Hon. Gentleman
stated that the sums to be applied to the relief of the poor con-
sisted partly of money raised by rates, and partly of subscrip-
tions ; but, as the collection of those rates was not likely to be
speedy, it was proposed to advance the money during their col-
lection. There would be a subsequent clause in the Bill
authorising the whole grant, which he proposed to move from
time to time in Committee of Supply during the session.
Mr. P. SCROPE said, as this money was to be secured on
the rates, the collection of which de,,ended on the exertions of
the Poor-law Commissioners, who were to have a power to
supersede the boards of gts.rdians if they did not collect them,
and to appoint paid boards of guardians, and as he had a very
strong opinion that the conduct of the Commissioners as to
the collection of the rates had been very lax, particularly in the
Castlebar union, where the people died in great numbers be-
cause the rates were not collected. he wished to know whether
present Coesatissii'A' . ces ry tee Ac! int', exerts-
, or wholl:•,r fore the Bill
_:same in.o opt,. attain .
Sir G. GREY said, it was not intended to make any
alteration before the Act came into operation ; but he hoped
that the Act would pass immediately, and come into operation
•sin e, very short time. The power given to the Commission by