The Sun.
London, England, 1812-03-10 00:00:00

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.

The House having resolved itself into a Com-
mittee, Mr. W. POLE rose to move the Irish Mis-
cellaneous Serv:ces. In proposing the different
grants, he should not trouble the House with any
observations, except where there was a difference
between the present Estimate and that of last year ;
at the same Limo, he should be ready to give every
information in. his power to any Gentleman that
might require it ; the first resolution he had to pro-
pose was, for a sum of 30,5291. 9S. 4d. for the
Board of Works. It had been the practice formerly to
vote annua4ly a sum of 25,0001. for the Board of
Works, although the expence almost uniformly ex-
`seeded that sum. The year before last it amounted
to 50,0001. in consequence, the attention of the
House was last year called to giant, and he
then proposed a larger estimate !ban had been usual,
with the view of bringing the vote of Parliament as
near as possible to the sum required, promising, at
the same time, the Government would direct its
attenti“p to this subject ; and he was now happy
to be able to state, that a corAsiderable redudiou ia

the expence had taken place, as would appear by
the resolution which he had prOpostd. He thought
it right to itt,!ntion this circumstance in justice to the
Board of Works, hosti conduCf was deserving
of-the utmost praise—Agreed to. -
Mr. POLE said, tiat the next sitrw,he had to, pro-
pose was, the usual 10,5001. !or R7iblishing Prochs
mations in the Dublin Gazette, and oilier Papers,
for one year. It was well known that the sum ex-
pended for this purpose had always greatly exceeded
the grant. He had made' every exertion in his
poWei to reduce the exiience, and he was happy to
say,. that he had effected a considerable, saving.—
Agreed to. •
The next Resolution was for 23,7481. gs. 52d. for
printing and stationary. Mr. Foie said, that this
was rather a larger sum than had !)cen granted last
year ; the reason was, that he ivas anxious to give
as close a!, esliminu in all cases as powriole, so as
not to render it necessary to come upon- the vote of
credit for the excess. The sum ptOp -s d was kip,
but under this fuead of statiookny was in.ludt-d
messengers, coals and candles, for different t..tficel„
&c.

Mr. BANKS wished to know what part of the
grant was really for sationary.
Mr. POLE replied, that the sum of 50001. was
granted for stationary. There was also a sum of
5,5001. for printing Gazettes. •
Sir J. NEWPORT thought it would be well to di-
vide the different heads,, instead of including all un-
der one denomination. The kight Hon. Gentle-
man had said that part of the sum was to be applied
to the printing of- the Gazettes. Why then ere
they called upon to vote, in another part of the Es-
timates, the sum of 10,5001. for that purpose ;
He
wished also to know the reason of the increase of
the present year ; should rash r lace expeLied
diminution, ter it had appeared, upon inquiry into
that subje;l, that the stationary at Dublin Castle was
supplied at a dear rale, and in a manner which ad-
mitted no cotnpeti;ion.
Mr. W. POLE said, the Rig Hon. Birouet mis-
understood linn; if he supposed him to state that
the sum of 10,5601. was for printing the Gazette;
it was for inserting Proclamations in the Gizette
and oit•er Papers. Tin- King.; Stationer, in Ireland,
was an office held by patehi, and therefore in its na-
ture adint:tin, f no competition ; out regular ac-
counts (keit Cei,r; and every ,tep consistent with the
patent, adopted for the adv-intage of ceconotny. He
had himstlt an intention of separating the various
points:contained under this head, but had found them
so connected as not to admit conveniently of sepa-
ratioh. There was a small increase ;n this esti-
mate this year, in consequence of too small a
sum having begin taken last year and of some re-
pairs which had been necessary in the Irish Office
in London.—Agreed to.
The next Resolution was for 2,5001. for appre-
hendiii offenders. Mr. Pout said there had been
a saving upon this head of 7371. which had gone
into the Consolidated„Fund.—Agreed to.

Mr. W. POLE t►►en moved the resolution for
25:0001._ for criminal prosecutions.

Mr HUTCHINSON and Srl J. NEWPORT observ-
ed, that she sum was much larger than that requir-
ed in t 798;a year of rebellion ; and objeaed to the
that it was an improper anticipation that
Ireland would i❑ such a state as to require that
such a sum should be appropriated for such a pur-
pose.

Mr. POLE said he did not know what the sum
granted in 1798 was, but he knew that ever since
the Union the sum now proposed was annually
granted. If any Gentleman wished to know how
the money was expended, he had not- the slightest
objection to produce the accounts. If this grant was
not nyide, it would be necessary to dip into the
vote of credit for the expence of these prosecutionS.
The only difference was, that by proposing an an-
nual grant, the attention of-Parliament. was annually
called to the subject ; whereas, if it were paid out of
the vote of credit, the. great probability was that it
would escape notice. Ir did not follow that the
sum granted was the sum-expended. Last year there
had been a sa*ing, which bad gone to the Consoli-
dated Fund; this year the expence was increased,
on account of the Spt-cial Commission, and the pro-
secutions which it had bet-n necessary to institute.
He could assure the Committee, that so far were
Government front being lavish in the expenditure
of the money granted tor t his purpose, that he had re-
ceived complaints from many parts of Ireland, stat-
ing that the Government was niggardly in carrying
on prosecutions at the public expence.
Sir J. NEwPORt slid, that this grant 'placed an
the Journals an anticipation of a state of disturbance
in Ireland, which would.caa- for the expenditure of
so large a sum. This reason alone was sufficient
against it.

Mr. FITZGERALD defended the grant, and said
that Gentlemen seemed to confound the sum -Voted
with the sum expended. It appeared that very re-
cently there had been a suip:us of the grant over the
expenditure, and that sorpnis had been paid into the
Consolidaied Fund. With respect to the smallness
of the expence of the year 1798, he begged to ob-
serve, that was a yearof great disturbaoCe in Ireland,
during a great part of which the✓ Courts of Justice
were closed, and therefore the expense of prosecu-
tion was not so great.

After a few words from Mr. BUTCRINSON, the
Resolqtiom was weed to.
Tire toltowing Resolutions were then agreed to :
Pratique Dublin l'ust L. 1,047 to o
Treasury Itlcidents . ,4.000 0 0
Lottery Officers . 2,856 o o
Board of First Fruits 10,000 o 0
N on-conforming Nlinisters 9,481 9 o
Seceding Ministers 3,951 0 0
Linen Nlanufachue . 21,6u0 0 0

When the last mentioned Resolution was pro-
posed,
S:r Jon NEWPORT wished to know, before this
sum was voted, what had become of a debt due to
the Board ? and wished the grant was suspended
until some information had been obtained on the
subject.
Mr. POLE said, he understood that the Board
were taking steps to recover the debt alltided to, but•
bether it had actually been paid or not he did not
know. Knowing the high respectability of Noble-
men and Gentlemen who composed the Linen
Board, he had taken it for granted that the proper
means bad been adopted for the recovery of the
money ; he would, however, malzean inquiry upon
the subjea.
The Resolution was then agreed to.
Mr. W. Pot..s then moved, that a sum of sgool. be

granted for draining bogs in Ireland ; the sum grant.
edlast year for this purpose was 12,0001. which,
with what read been previously granted, and what
was now pooposed, made altogether about 29,000%
A detailed ,account of the proceedings of these-Com-
missioners, was before the House, from whi.!h it
appeared that a very large portion of the bogs of
Ireland 'had already been surveyed. It was now
proposv:l that they should extend their surveys into
Connakuara, on the Western side of Ireland, for
WhiCtl, purpose it was: necessary that the Commis-
sionv.rs should be continued another year, when
they would finish their labours. The Committee,
.he was sure, must be aware of the very great im-
prirtance of the objet for which :his sum was now
claimed, and he hoped that it would be the last that
Parliament would be called upon to grant.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT exrizssed •a hope, lila!, in
future, before grants of this kind were made, the
House might have an opportunity of determining
on their utility, and not be led on) step by- step, itt
considerable disbursements for inconsiderable ob.
je ts. In his opinion, the survey of all Ireland
mik;ht have been effected for one. third of.the sum
voted for this purpose. Besides, a very large pro-
portion of those bogs, for the survey of wh ch the
public paid, belonged to Noblemen and Gentle-
men, who were very able to have them surveyed,
without increasing the public, burthens. The i:lea
originlily stated, when this plan was ushered in,
was, that a sufficient quataity of_ hemp would be
raised to render us iniependent of any suppli, s
from the Baltic ; but, from what he now saw, the
st.lieme appeared nicely to promote no one useful
o!.jea

-Nit' W. FITZGBRALD regretted that the Right
t (..ientkman (Mr. Ewer) who first _pro-
pu‘ed the plan, was not in lets place to vindicate
himself from the charges of the Right Honourable
Earonet. it was impossible, trom the nature of
the undertaking, that the expence would be fully
a-cei tamed, at the outset. He considered it as a
complete geOlogical survey, embracing t7-20ths,of
all the bogs in Ireland, and was far from beivz
so fruitless as described by the Right Honourable
Baronet.

The Resolution was then agreed to, as were We
following :

Harbour of Flowth k, 32,000
Dublin Society to,ooo
Farming Society 5,000
Cork Institution • . • , 2,50 ct

On movsng she next Resolutiort, to That the sum
of 41;5391.- be granted for the Protestant Charter.
Schools in Ireland."

Mr. W. POLE said, there was an augmentation
of 25001. in this-grant this year, which arf.se partly
from the expellee which had been incurred in
the repairs of the schools, and partly from the in-
crease in the price of prOvisions.
Sir JoliN NEWPORT wished to know, why there
should be a still further increase on the increase of
10,0001. in the last year ?
Mr. W. POLE said, that the Board of Education
had made an elaborate report upon the state of these
schools, from which it appeared,,that in consequence
of the increased price of provisions, it had been found
necessary to allow one halfpenny per day in addi-
tion for the board of each of the children main:ant-
ed in these schools, amounting to 2400. These
schools, he was sorry to say, had not been kept up
in g proper way, but now they were very much im-
proved, and the greatest attention was paid to them.
He could undertake to say, that in no one instance
was there greater atipution paid to the expenditure
of public money, than in that of the Protestant
Charter Schools.

Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, that the Right Hon.
Gentleman had not explain,d to his satisfaction the
cause of the increase this year, over and above the
increase of iO,OOOl. last year ; the repairs of the
buildings only amounted to 50001.

Mr. P. MOORE wished to know whether there
was any check on the expenditure of the money
granted ?
Mr. W. POLE said, that these accounts all went
went before the Auditors of Public Accounts, by
whom they were scrupulously examined, and these
auditors had praised in the strongest terms the mode
adopted with respet to the conduct of these schools.
With regard to the increase which the Right Hon.
Baronet said had taken place in the vote of last year,
he was not prepared to state how it arose, as he had
not proposed the gr.ini. If, however, the Protestant
Charter Schools in Ireland were to be kept up, it
appeared to him to be sufficient to lay before the
Committee as accurate and as close an estimate of
the necessary expense as could be prepared. If
Gentlemen thought that any part of the estimate
was objeaionable, let them poiot it out, and he was
.ready to answer them, and to give the fullest ex-
planation.

Sir 'JOHN NEWPORT maintained, that he had a
right to demand, irom any Minister, a full expla-
nation, as to the votes of the public money ; nor
would 20 close estimates solve the question he bad
put, and. to which he had a right to expe6t an
answer, without the ,imputation of cavil, which
now seemed to be the custom to impute to anv Gen-
tleman who wished• for information on the disposal
of the annual grants....
Mr. W.- PpLR said, that the Committee would
judge whether he had not shewn a disposition to
satisfy' the Right Hen. Baronet, or any oilier Gen-
ilklman, who desired an explanation on any
He h 441 answered him over and oter, and. he con-
ceived that, standing as he did, with a close esti-
mate.in h.s hand, he had nothing more to do than
to propose the Resolution to the Committee.

. .
Mr. HERBERT said, he thought the explanation
given by the Right Hon. ,Gentlewan.perfedly sa-
tisfaCtory.
Mr. HUME said, he was anxious to learn from the
Right Hon. Gentleman, vahethor it was in the con-
templation of the Irish Government" to take advan-
tage of the new system of education, by which
180,000 children might. be 'educated at an expellee
not exceeding that which , 24.3 U cost now ? If this
plan were adopted, the whole population of Ireland
might be educated in the course of a few years.—
He begged leave to sanest, that the Commis-
sioners might seleet One or two boys, from each,
of the Charter-schools, who could be sent to Eng-
land to learn the new system, ..and who could be
thus qualified to act, as teachers in the different
schools, which it was his wish to bee established.

Mr. W. POLE begged leave shortly to trouble the
Committee, in cchisequence of .what had fallen from
the Hon. Mmt/er. The obaeryations of that Hoe.

G.:Mier/lan secmid to him t 3 apply, not so 'much
to the subje& which was immediately uAer the.
cmsideration of the Committee, as to the genetal
system ofedncati.in in ireiand, winch was at pre—
sent tinder the, consideration of '1 he Board of Educa•
lion in that country. The schools for which he
had proposed this grant were founded by charter,
and it was impnssible to apply the System alluded
to by the Hon. Genlemao to them, scattered as they
were over the He
„wished very much
that the Hon. Genilin c, had read the Report of
.the- Commissioners Gf Education upon these char.:
tors, he would then have seen how inapplicable
this new system was tat hem.

Mr: fluMt -s:tic% he had merely thrown out the
suggestion tOr the ttonsidrration of the Committee,
and he stid was-of opinin. that mud) benefit tn.:ght
be derived•frotn_the adoption of the new-.plan of
education.

Mr. W. Smmusaid, he- considered the sum as
being very large for the number of children edu-
cated ; and it appeared to him to be a subjeCt well
worthy of consideration, whether the money could•
not be laid out in a more advantageous manner.
Mr. W. Pons said, he really was surprised at. the
observation. made by the Honourable Gentleman.—
He did not extleet to find that at this day it would
hare been made a matter of discussion whether the.
Protestant Charter Schools in Ireland, were bene,
ficial or not ; he had never before heard a doubt ex,
pressed upon the subjetl. He had the pleaArre of
seeing in his place nue of the most resrectabl.
Members of the Board of Education (Mr. GI attar)),
and Ire would appeal to him for an opinion respect-
ing these Schools, and the manner iu which they
were condu6led. He could not avoid again ex-
pressing a wish that Gentlemen had read the re,
ports of the Board of Education respthing these
Schools, of which there were ten or eleven before
the House.

Mr..GR ATTAN said, that having been referred to
by the Right Honourable. Gentleman, he rose mere,.
ly to observe, that the CiurunissionetS of Education.
in Ireland had made an extreme 4 good report ; but
it was not within the purview of their Commission
to suggest or follow up any new plan, for con' udiii,g
the Charter 'Schools in a way differing flow their
original institution. He out sa), however, that
since the report of the Commissioners of Inquiry hi
1788, these Schools were very mach improved,
both as to the health and cleanliness of the childienr
and that it was much better to make ample -provi,
sion for_their mainteliance, than to defeat their cb-
ject by a parsimoniisus one. The price of provi-
sions had beet! gredtly-on the increase, the buildibp,
also of the charity had' been •greatty improved, and
these circurnstal,;zes sufficiently justified the in:.
creased voce, boat of the preceding and of the pie•
sent year.

The Resolution was then agreed to, as were the
following : .
' Foundling If tospital L. 3,1,1,50.'
House of li.dustry . • 41.9'2
Hibernian ;,chool . l3 c)(6
Matine Society . 2,8'6
Female Orphan House
,go 6
Viestrnoriztud L: c„ Hospital' X,. 4!
Lying-in 1.-*;,osßital
.• 3 I 71
Sir P:itric4. Dunn's Hospital . 3.,-16
Stevens's 'Hospital - ; . 1.424
St. lizurick's Hospital 4, iSo
Fever Hotpital 2,000

-----
With regard to the last mentioned Estimate, Mr.
POLE Jobserved, that it was wool. more tint) had
ever been proposed before. He was ioduced.to
make this proposition from tb~ great fnereise of
the number of patients in the Hospital and the
smallness of itsfunds; and he hoped that whets Gentlemen considered the great benefit arising from,
this institution, they would not 'objet to the ini•
creased grant.—Agreed to.
Mr. Pout then moved, that the sum of Gaol. be
granted for the Commissioners of Charitable Dona-
tions.

Sir JOHN NECWPORT said, he did not rise to ob.,
jeEt to this grant, but he could not a..-oid saying a
few words upon some of the proceedings of these
Commissioners. They had thought it proper to in-
terfere with bequests of Catholics, and had pre-
ventLd them from being carried into execution ; one
had occurred in the city which he had the honour
to represent A Rorrain Catholic Lady had be- '
queathed a considerable sum for charitable purpmei,
but the Commissioners of. Charitable Donations hid
thought proper to interfere, and to prevent the
from being carried into execution ; the consequence
of which was, that several poor widows, who under
this will were to be furnished with an asylum, were
now aaually begging their bread. The Board of
Charitable Donations was composed of the Arch-
bishops, B:shops, Judges, and some others, and ho -
did not by any means wish to question their respect-
ability, but he thought it unfortunate that they
should thus interfere with the bequests of the Ro-
man Catholics.

Mr. W. POLE begged to trouble the House for a -
few moments, 'in consequence of what bad fallen
from the Right Honourable Baronet. • The Rigla
Honourable Baronet had stated to the Committee
the rn inner in Avhith the Bolrd of Charitable Do-
nat-ons was forme f, and when it was known that
it v. as composed of the kclibisho:.:s, Bishops,- and
Judges of Ireland, ,the Committee, he was sure►
won d not su-peat that such a Board cold 46t in the
improper mantivr st:ted by the Right Hon. Bal-ont;_t•
This was' nut the first thine that the Board of Ch
ritahle Donations had been arraigned. He had-
heard -charges of .a siinilar kind preferred before, in
consequencesof which he .bad sent for- the Secre'
tary of that Board, to a.k for an account of their
proceedings. It !timed out, that during the tweivo.
years that this Board had been established, it hail
instituted only fifteen -prosecutions, alt under the
opinion of the Attorney General for the time tieing;
of these fifteen prosecutions only Jwo had bee'
brought against persons of the Roman Catholic
ligion. In. one of these two cases, the CC/MEl:is'
sinners found that a sum which bad beets left by
Roman Catholic to endow an hospital had not bte°
applied, and they interfered, to compel the-per'
formance of the will. The consequence was, that
the bequest was carried into effect, and an hospital,
in the town of New .Ross, for Roman Ca,i,olid
only, was ereded by the means of these Cotnns's'
sioners. The other case was the one alluded to 0,
the Right Hon. Baronet ; it was the case of Ml6'
Power, of Waterford, who had left a large sum NI:
charitable uses; but this money having been let'
to two Roman Catholic Bishops and thex Rued'
sors for ever, Mr. -Finlike, the A:terney-General'.
m
entertained a doubt whether these Roan CAthiell;,'

134h0P4 could be considered as a Cnrporation, and
also doubting the legality of some of the other be-
quests, he advised the Commissioners to institute
13,roteedings in the Court of Chancery. Befitre
those proceedings were brought to a close, the heir
at law came over and commenced proceedings to set
aside the will altogether, on the ground that it was.
blacl 'under undue influence. This was the real
Vlllse of the unfortunate widows mentioned. by the
;tight Hon. Bart. being deprived of their as; lam; it
as the ad of heir at law, and not of the Commis-
sioners. It aealed therefore that tine lit. Hon. Bart.
ad been whollyp misinformed upon this subje&,
rat. he was sure he would .not intentionally rills-
eVesent the fads. The sum now asked for was
3311'Y Gool, which was to pay the Secretary of this
uard, and to provide stationery ; or the Members
gratuitously. Hie wished to mention, be-
ire he sat down, that by the exertion of this
()art! two of the, principal charities of Dublin,
',which were open alike to Catholics and to Pro-
testants,ll:ld received, and were now enjo)ing very
Unutterable sums of [none)..
Sir
JOHN NEWPORT said, he di:! not mean to
SPeak dvespetitfully of the Board, but he believed
;that the names of the Bishops 'lnd Judges were
Inserted honoris causa, and he ventured to say,
that-
-1.11"Y scarcely ever attended. The fact was, he be-
eved that the Board was principally under the direc-
") of D!. Dnigenan, and therefore could not be
BuPPosed to be vary faVourable to the Roman Ca-
tholics. -

„I,lr. W. POLE said, that the best answer that
r-11111
be given to the observation of the Right Hon.
,i
.4)aronet reSpeating the disposition of the Board to-
wards Catholics.; was, that in 111,_1 course of twelve
?ears, onlyu one Catholic bequest had been interfered
,ths and that was by the advice of Mr.-Attorney
..Zeneral Plnnket. He begged.to repeat, that it wds
Wil'g to the interference of the heir at law, and not
o
the Board, that the poor wino,as had been depriv-
Aed their Asylum, for during the proceedings in
'fleerv, the Board had allowed-the budding of t
t sAin to go on,•and had permitted 4001. to be paid
°the Roman Catholic Bishops for a private charity
orntiutled in: the will. I here was another piece
"'formation which he could give the Right
nnourable Baronet, and which he was sure
it! would receive with great plea• u: e, which was
iat the
Board never sat without a' Judge and a
,wihsliP being present ; therefore, it eould nut be
while
under the. influence of Dr. Duigenan nor
th any respect remained attached to the sacred
„araaer of a Bishop, or the exalted station of a
,",&e, could it be believed that any Board, at
lilcit a Bishop and a Judge were constantly pre-
lints would act in the wanner stated by the Right
aa. Baronet.
Abe Resolution was agreed to.
2 1:11e next resolution was 2,4231, for the As-
-I°,clation for Di3counienancing Vice, a larger sum
"Li was voted last tear.
n this, Sir J. Mwroar paid
a tribute of ap-
'se to the mannerin which this Association was
nlnuoed its attention was directedto the disni-
off prayer-books and bibles, to enlighten the
4(z.t. orders-,--and out to the searching after,, and
v 4
n''hinent of, petty insignificant
ec,3)4661. to the College of Surgeons, was then
-evenM to wit trajt, observation.
r. POLE explained, that it was a new grant to
101 institution of acknowledged and-i. finite se!vice
t° the public, and a imiranly concluded. The ptir-
iluse for which the sum proposed WaS 'Wanted, v..- as,
%erect a disse6ting robin.
Seven hunched pounds for the Green -coat Hospi-
-41 at Cork, for the education of soldiers' children,
i'Pa also agreed to.
W. PoLa next proposed the grant of 8,9731.
fur the support of the Catholic college, at May-
-1400111..

L NEwI,oRT observed, that though this gran':
'lad been so often brought under the consideration
5 Pat!lament, he felt himself bound again to bring
under their attention. , He would contend, that it
Vias- more than ever incumbent on the House to
flake some addition to the grant now proposed.
ohs reasons were, that the population of Ireland, of
111111 ch the Catholics formed so liirge a part, was an-
'ually increasing; and, therefore, the demand for
Iseligions instruction must increase in proportion.
'oosidering the influence which the C iiholic Clergy
deservedly possessed, it was desirable at all times,
that their education should be conducted at home,
)atner than abroad ; but there was no other provi-
ton for that education, except what, furnished
Y this College, at Maynooth ; and he would put it
t 0
the Cummittee, whether it was calculated on its
Present scale to supply the religious instruction of the
Catholics in Ireland. The prestert grant was suffi-
cient for the education of ouly two hundred students,
‘vhose course of instruction required five years each
34 an average. The College, therefore, was calcu-
lated to furnish only about 40 persons annually for the
service of religion. Now, the Catholic Clergy in
Ireland were about 2,000 in number; and, from
the calculations of Dr. Price, on the subjed of the
enefit Society of the Clergy of the Church of Scot-
land, it might be fairly estimated, that a yearly sup-
Ply of fifty-nine persons was requisite for keeping up
the numbers of the Catholic priesthood in Ireland,
ipstead of the 'Orly which this Coilege could send
cet. The question was not, whether the. Catholics
should become Protestants, for sny abridgment of
the numbers of their clergy never would have that
eared; but the question was, whether the Catho-
lics should remain uurestritled in religion at all or
not; and besides, become irritated against that Le-
gislature which refused them the means of religious
Consolation. This was the plain state of the case ;
and he could could see no reason why the grant
should not now revert to the r 3,0001. a year, which
was voted some years ago : an increase rendered
still more expedient by fte enhanced price of pro-
visions, which had this night been stated as the rea-
son for increasing another grant, He would only
Odd, the there was no priesthood in Europe which
paid more exemplary atttention both to the tempo-
ral and spiritual interests of their flocks than the
Catholic Clergy of Ireland : they necessarily, and
he believed Most deservedly, possessed great it,flu-
ence over their people, and therefore it was for the
general good of- society at large, that this body of
mon should be well educated and instrueled. With
these impressions, lie should move, that instead of
9,000. ounds the sum of 13,000 pounds shuuld be
luserted.

Mr. Secretary RYDER said, that he *as prepared
to resist this enlargement of the original grant ; and
if this had bt.en the first time of proposing the
grant
itself, 11.0 did -not hesitate to say that he would
vote against it. He did not wish to debar the pro-
fes,ors of any religion of its most eniaiged and li-
beral toleration, but he was not for giving`a hostile
religion the power of making proselytes, and this he
conceived had been the effect of the establishment
of Ma% nooth College- He would not, un,ler exist-
ing circumstances, go the length of voting that the
original grant should be taken away; but -he most
solemnly and seriously.assured the House, that aa-
ing on the principles which he professed, if the pre-
sent had been a call on the House for money fdr
the purpose of endowing a Roman Catholic College,
he would not give a single pound towaris it.

Colenel Dt Lox declared, that he never felt more
astonishment nor indignation than he did at hearing
what had just fallen from the Right Hon. Gentle-
man. Tee Right Hon Gentleman argued against
the principle ot educating the Irish Catholic Clergy,
when he must have recollected that Maynooth Col-
lege. was founded during the most violent period ot
Irish history, and when Europe began -to be in hos•
tility against these countries. The Irish Catholic
Clergy must have been educated at home or no
where. The Right Hon-Gentleman did not ap- •
pear to consider in what an ungracious situation he
was lacing the House. At this particular moment,
such a paltry seen as 80001. wasgrudged, to the mass
of the population of Ireland, while the House was
prodigal of the public money in every-other respect,
even in the support of sinecure pensions and places.
One good, however, must result from this conduct
of the Ria,ht Hon. Gentleman, and that was, that
Ireland would he able to judge of the spirit and tern-
per of the Ministry to which he belonged, that Ire-
land would be able to See how willing the Mire-ter
was to add to de ic burthense and how unwilling to
lessen or aneviatetheir grievances.
Mr. HERBERT sopported the enlarged grant. He
denied that any system of proselytism had been pro-
moted by the establishment of Maynooth College.
There -were six c ,averts from the Catholics to every
one from amongst the Protestants.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER opposed
the Amendment, not because he considered the en-
largement 'of any consequence in an economical
point of view, but because he was against the prin-
ciple of the grant altogether. At the same time,
from the commencement of this establishment,
Parliament bad granted for its support about
160,0001. and that was no paltry pittance. Accord-
ing to the Right Hon. Barottethecalculation, the
number of priests required every year was 59 ; and
was it not enough for the public to educate 40 out
of that number ? He supported the grant as it stood,
because it was one of those which the Parliament of
Ireland thought wise to preserve at the Uniorn-:--
because he found it in fat given over to England as.
part of-the. Union. If the grant had been fairly open
to opposition after the Union, he certainly should
have been .disposed to tesist it ; because he thought,
on principle, that it was wrong for a State endea-
vouring to establish aparticalr system of religion,
to provide a public supply for the maintenance, en-
couragement, acrd propagation of another. The
House now supported charitably, 40 out of the 59
priests said to be. necessary for the Irish Catholics;
and he contended that so much was not proportion-
ably done in the same way for the education of re.-
sons for the Protestant Church Establishment. Why
did not the wealtiry Catholics come for word and
educate their clergy without calling on the State ?
All the refined and deliberaie study uieotioaed by
the Right Lion. Baronet was not necessary for Irish
Priests; they dal not want wore education, surely,
than was possessed by the clergymen in the distant
parts ot England and Wales. He begged Gentle.:
men to look at home, nnless they wished, by an ex-
cess of grants, to mike M Aynta‘th College equal. to
Dublin, Cambridge, or Oxtord University.
Mr. GR/eTAN was not aware of the strength of
the Right Hon. Gentleman's argument, that because
you adopted the original grant; therefore you were
not obliged ever' to enlarge it. If once the principle
Were adopted, be contended that the limitation of
the sum was only 'to be fixed by the circomstances
of the times,—to ad otherwise, was nominally to
adopt, and ultimately to defeat, the prityciple,—
What was the meaning of establishing a Catholic
College, if the exigencies of such 14 college were
not to be supplied as they should vary from time
to time? The House should recoiled, that the Ca-
tholic population Fail for the Protestant Establish-
ment;' and it was extremely just that something
should be given to them. The grant was not for
the propagation but the pra6lice of the Catholic re-
ligion. The question was -trot, whether yon should
extend this or that faith by any act in the power of
Parliament to make. Such a system had been tried
in Ireland, but it had tailed. Ads were passed which
bad been mischievous in their operation, certainly
.disgraceful, and entirely useless for the purpeses
for which they were intended. Every effort to
force conscience would hate a contrary died,
because then it. became no longer a matter of re-
ligion but of spirit to persist in that faith against
which such force was directed. Catholic's were
Christians as well as Protestants, and every attempt
to destroy Catholicity was an attempt against Chris-
tianity. The question was, in fad, between Chris=
tianity and deism,—between foteign and domestic
educstion. You must choose to educate the Dish
as Catholics at home, or give them up to deivio, or
to foreign education.- To ad otherwise was forcing
the Catholic to he an infidel or a disaffeded man.
When the House had once adopted the principle,
he thought it was bound honestly to follow up that
principle, and to meet the exigencies of the esta-
blishment whose existence it had sanctioned. As
the people increased, so increased the demand for
• religious instruction, and so ought the grant to be
increased, froth which that instruction flowed. If the
grant should not be increased, then the principle of
the institution was only poorly and inadequately mete;
half the people only could be instructed. The Right
Hon. Gent. had asked, was there any instance of
,a
State having supported a hostile religiOn ? Yes, he
would tell him, Ireland. Ireland did now aelnally sup-
port the religion of another country ; for, when the
Right Hon. Gentleman said " State," he must have
meant by it, not the Government, but the nation ;
and the Catholic people did contribute by taxes to
the support of the Protestant r siablishment. Again,
the Right Hon. Gentleman had .aid that there Was
aso proportion between the means given for the echo-
• Galion of Catholic Primsis And Protestant Pastors.--

WooII any man in his senses have used such an ar-
gument He would ask the night Hon. Gentle-
man, was the Catholic rich in proportion to the Pro,
\teitant Church in Ireland ? Was the Dubtin Uni-
versity nothing , Were tithes nothing ? Were
Bisnopricks nothing ? Was the half million by
which the --Protestant Church •• as supported no-
thing ? Would the ROA Honourable Gentleman
then consider the small, though resp-•ilablc number
of persons for whose use these endowments
were intended ? • And would he then :ninpare them,
to the overflowing numbers for-whose religious in-
struction 80001. was thought too much ? In fact,
there was not in the world a richer than the Protes-
tant, nor a poorer than the Catholi,. Church of Ire-
land. Christianity was the title of the Irish to edu-
cation. The grant was not to gratify a sect but to
cherish a branch of the Christian Religion. To de-
ny the necessary grant, was an attempt to starve
the people out of their faith, which could not be
successful. To deprive the people of Ireland of edu-
cation, was.a struggle for a new victory over them.
It was not only destroying their temporal rights, but
their spiritual faculties; it was not only persecuting
them in this world, but an endeavour to damn them.
in the next.

Mr. WHITBREAD said, that he ought to apologise
for rising on this occasion, because, in fact, he had
no new argtiments to adduce in favour of the en-
largement of this grant. There was a novelty, how-
ever, to-night, which he thought it necessary to no-
tice. The Right Hon. Gentleman did certainly, oif
former occasions, oppose this grant ; and when he
became the Minister of the King, he withdrew the
additional sum given by Parliament to make it more
adequate to its purposes. But the novelty of this
night was, that the Right Hon. Gentleman opposed
the enlarged grant, not as the Minister -of the King,
but of the Prince Regent; not as in old ordinary
times, but at this new
.sera. According to the
principles avowed by the Right .Hon. Gentleman, in
his opinion it would have been more manly and
fair to have undone the grant altogether, than to
starve it as he was now doing. The Secretary for
the Home Department had thrown out his loose
assertion with regard to the instances of proselytism,
merely, he imagined, for alarm. He defied him
to mention Where the proselytes were made,
and how many they were. it was strange that
the Gentlemen opposite, who talked so much of
the danger, of foreign influence over the Catho-
lics of Ireland, should thus oppose the very
means by which that foreign influence would
most likely be done away. He caVel upoe the
Right Hun. Gentleman (Mr. Perc:vai) to follow up
his intolerant principles by cutting up this establish-
ment altogether, or to agree to the aurendmeut of
his Right Hon. Fiiend:
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed,
that while he and- his colleagus were accused of in-
novation, the charge preferred against them was
founded tin the tact of their having resisted innova-
tion. The greet proposed for Maynooth College
had been regulirty granted from 1801 to 'lBO6,
without any alteration being made; but in 1807)
when theN then Administration were doing every
thing in their power to encourage the. Roman Ca-
tholic Religion (in which they were right--as they
thought it wise to do so), they, in one Session. of
Parliament, piocured a grant Of 12 or 13,0001. for
the support of Mayttooth Collega. This grant was
merely 'the ad of that Parliament ; it was not em-
bodied
in the Approbation Ad,andcopsequemly with
that Pat liamente when shortly after it was dissolved,
it fell. After the new Parliament had met, it was
thought this grant was not warranted by circum-
stances, and therefore he (the Chancellor of the
and his friends, had conceived it to be
their duty to return to the old one. It was for do-
ing this, for setting aside that whin was new, and
returning to the old vote, that they were called in-
novators, It Would now be understood what was
the definition of the word innovation, according to
the Gentlemen opposite,'and it would also be utt-
derstood, that with them, those who abolished a
novel or new praetice, ta.retuen to one which had
been lung established, were innovators. The Hu•
nourabie Gentle.nhin had done him the justice io
be tr testimony to the consistency of his opposition
to the enlargement of this grant. He bad admitted
that when he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
was not in office, he opposed it, and that when he
tame into office, he had' exhibited the strange phe-
nomehon of a Minister acting consistently with the
principles he had avowed in Opposition. This had
seemed to surprise him but, however, the Hon.
Gentleman had said, all, so far, was very well ; but
the novelty was, he had hot only aeled thus, when
he came ieto'office, but he had continued to do the
same. Mit only had he continued to do the same
while he was the Minister of the King, -but he still
opposed tire measure, though he was the Minister of
the Prince, and this again was a subject of
great surprise, as it should seem, as it it were
very extraordinary that a Member of that
House should nut, oe such an occasion, put on
new princit i 's. His opinions,- however, ab-
-surd they might appear on this subject, had
remained what they were in 1801, and the me-
mory of the Hon, Gent. was not accurate if he
thought that the argument he had used that- night
was new. -He had not supposed that there were
nu-deaths at Maynooth, but when it was known
that all' there _were professedly educated for the
priesthood, he thought some latitude might be al-.
luwed to whit be had advanced. When he said
that if the grant were enlarged there was no know-
ing to what it might extend, he had not supposed
that they might be called upon for millions upon
millions, but he thought it was not &fineable
how far, it might ex:end, if a line were not drawn
where they now \vete.
Sir Jou:s NEWPORT said, it-was in the first session
of this Parliament that the augmentation took place,
and therefore the Right Honourable. Gentleman was
not correct in saying it took place in 1807, and was
really the innovator he had been so justly iermed..
WHITBREAD adverted to the letter which had
lately appeared, and the ink of which was scarcely
dry, in which the Right Honourable Gentleman had
invited and called upon those who advised the aug-
mentation, to unite with him. He therefore con-
gratulated the Right Hon. Gent. on his consistency.
The CHANCELLOR Of the 'EXCHEQUER said-, that
Achninistratien had hesitated to act upon the plan
which they ow red they thought desirable.
Mr. NV. WYNNE said a few words in favour of
the amendment; after which the original motion
was agreed to.

ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
Mr. WARD rose and said, that in bringing for-
ward the Ordnance Estimates, he would endt3vour
to detain the Committee as short a time as passible,
He was happy to say that there would aprear )h the
the whole of the Estimate to be a diminution of
252,0001.

Tee first head was the Master-G,,neral and prin-
cipal Officers, amounting to 42,4861. gq. 41 which
was a ditnieution on the Staff of 4051. The Civil
Officers were the same as last year. -The furniture
for Barracks amounted to 60001. The next great
artiele was the Pay, of the Artillery Regiments,
which amounted to 51,1461. 19s. Bd.' The Medi-
cal Establishment was 4666!. in England _alone.—
The Extraordiriaries, he said,wouldj as to the works
in Jersey, amount to 45,0001. and it would take
about thirty thousand pounds more to complete the
work; in the Cinque Ports, Dover alone would
amount to 12,5101. at Chatham 13,0001. and it
would require 7,6ool'enore to complete the works;
at Woolwich, 31,7641. 7s. Id. for buildings and a
saw-mill, which would be a saving between manual
and machine labour of upwards of 30001. for what
cost 40601. ; defences of the easter:, coast, 57,3241.
175. ied. and it would require 39,0001. next year
to complete the work ; for foreign service, the
greater part of which was secret, and of which he
was.not at liberty to speak, 804,5461. 195.; miscel-
laneous charges; 412,2341. 10s. Id.; ammunition
for regiments, 40,0001. ; estimates for Ireland,
459,8851. 18s. 2d. beingan excess of 18;0001. above
that of last year. The excess on the whole, he said,
would be 268,0001. but it was merely nominal, for
in reality there would be a diminution. There was
also a charge of 100,0001. for the purchase of salt.
petre tram the. East. India Company. He Could
not conclude his present statement, without advert-
ing to the Commi,oeoners of Military Accounts w ho
had made 14 reports. The Board to which he
had the honour to belong had, before they saw these
reports, made s,neeeil-improvements which they had
pointed out, and agreed with them on most of their
principal points, particularly with respect to open
competition in their contracts, and other important
suggestions which they had made, and were deter-
mined to aid their labours try every assistance which
they, as a Board, could give them. Having gone
through the several statements, he would not trou-
ble the Committee farther, but should be ready to
give any explanation that might be required. He
concluded by moving that 8,873,6181.. 3s. 6d. be
granted to his Majesty for the land service.
General Terms:Tor; spoke at considerable length
on the impolicy of Ministers not fixing a large depot
in the centre el tl'e emery (as he had advised five
years aeo) capable of contaiiiing equipments of every
kind for 200,000 men. In the Scheldt and the
Texel Buomiparte had 30 sail of the line, and men
to man them ; and if he should be able, by any
means, to land 10, 15, or 20,0000 men irrE:igland,
we had no means- of expelling them from the courf-
try, though the expense of our army would this
year cost us 'tear 59,000,0001. If Ministers did not
seriously turn their thoughts to this- subject, they
must turn their backs upon the safety and security
of the kingdom.
Mr. WARD said, the depot at Weedon Beck did
contain equipments of every kind for 200,000 men,
which he hoped would sufficiently console the 0-
lant General.

General l'Ant.E-rorc said, the depot at Weedon
Beck might contain pistols, perhaps, for so many
men ; but there ought to be, at least, too pieces of
cannon also ; besides, Weedon Beck was tta) near
thf: metropOlis. He complained that all the horse-
art illery were on the coast.
Mr. WARD sail, that to console farther,the Hon.
General, he would assure him, there were 140 pieces
of cannon- at Weedm Beck ; and that there was
also a troop of horse artillery.
Mr. Fa EZMANTLE complained, that there was an
increase of nearly 150,0001. this year, without mly
apparent danger to call for it. He desired to have
air explanation how this excess had arisen ; and till
he obtained it, he could not agree to the Estimate.
He was dissatisfied also with the explanation as 'to
the defence of the country. He had nothing but
the assertions of the Hon. Gentleman, which was
not enough for him to call on his Constituents fOr
so large a sum. The total increase in the Extraor-
dinaries only was '374,001)1. this year ; altogether
the excess amounte'd to near a million, certainly to
goo,uool. and the increase of men to our military
establishmera had been only 19001.
Mr. WARD re,tated many of the items he bad
before gone over,
,and insisted that on the whole of
those estimates there would be diminution.

Mr. WHITBREAD said, with respell to the secret
service mentioned by the Hon. Gentleman, be be-
lieved it was a secret that was known to every body
but the House of Commons. They were presents
sent to certain persons, by whom they had been re-
jected ; and a considerable part had been lost,in the
.p.issage home, and was now at the bottom of the
Sea.'

Mr. WARD acknowledged that stores to the
amount of 77,0001. had becu lost.

Mr. HUSKISSON made some observations, in
which he particularly noticed the sum of 25:0001.
for works at the Pigeon-house, Dublin, He in-
ferredfrom the statements, that this was only a part
of the expense to be incurred ; and urged the. ne-
cessity of an estimate of the whole cost of every plea
accompaning the proposition for its adoption.
Mr. WARD said, that recently a regulation had
been m ide, by which engineers throughout the em-
pire were to accompany their statements, with 101 l
estimates of the expense likely to be incurred by
their execution. With respect to the Pigeon-house,
it was the depot of the garrison of Dublin, and one
of the chief artillery depots in that country : but the
ground belonged to the Ballast Corporation. It was
desirable that Government should have it in their
own hands, though from many claims which must
be settled, a certain cost must take place in attaining
that object. If there was any land which 'should
be apprOpriated exclusively to public use, it was
more peculiarly the case with the Ordnance Depart-
ment, wherein the liability of accidents to the stores
must be evident. No other place near Dublifi would
suit the purpose.

. .
General TARLETON made some objeetions on the
localities of Ireland, upon which Mr. Ward observ-
ed, that the objeetions were fitter fol. the considera-
tion of the Ordnance Board, ihan as matters of de.,
bate.

Mr. WHITBREAD thought the Idst remark rather
hard. lie might dB well go to thc Admiralty Board,,