The Sun.
London, England, 1841-03-02 00:00:00

_E V ENING ED ETION.

mates for the presec.t year, because that must form the
subject of a calculation upon the amount of the naval
three e i.ich might be required under the circumstances
ltr whieh the country alight be placed. He felt it im-
possible to enter upon this subject in the absence of the
Minister of the, Crown, whose duty it was to furnish
them with information. He must confess that when he
was called upon to vote 43,000 men for the naval ser-
vice of the country, be felt some surprise that the Se-
cretary of State for Foreign Affairs was not present to
our an explanation on the subject to the Committee.
Ile felt also another difficulty, the Hon. Member for
Kilkenny having made a motion for the production of
II most important document, and without it he felt it
impossible to form a very correct estimate as to whether
arid amount of force called for by the Right Hon.
Gentleman was adequate to the service of the country
or not. He wished also to call their attention to the
circumstance of the under-estimates of former years.
That was a paint which the House should look at with
great caution at all times, because, if they brought fur-
ward . the supplemental estimates, they lost the advan-
tage of that House having control over the expenditure.'
It Was a different thing to refuse their assent to the es-
timate, in which the whole policy of the country might
be called into question, and to refuse the payment of an
expense already incurred. lie was willing to admit
that it was impossible to estimate every contingency
that might accrue in the naval service. ( Hear.)
The whole of the naval votes had been, up to last
)'ear, suffic eat to cover the entire of the cxp n;es. Ho
confeseedthat lie was not satisfied with the explanation
which had been given by the Right lion. Gentleman
the Secretary for the Admiraity, both with regard to
the deficiency of the year 1839, and the deficiency for
the year 1810. In the first place, he (Sir G. C
was disposed to think that the deficiency of 1839 was
considerably higher than the sums shown to be taken.
The balance stated was °9,600/., for which the vote
was now taken ; but the balance of the former year
remained unexplained, especially upon the grounds
stated to the Admiralty, namely, that the accounts be-
longing properly to the year 1839 fur the Cape of
Good Hope and Trincomalee had not been received.
One of the ways in which the deficiency was sought to
be made up was by making a demand on the Treasury
for the expenses incurred by the insurrection in
Canada. Now, he wished to know on what grounds
the naval department trade such claims? Tue first
item in these c!ahne was for wages of sea-
men and marines.. He was desirous of knowing
for what seamen and marines these demands were made?
The deficiency in the estimates for the year 1839
Wag, instead of being 26,6001. as the vote now place)
in the Chairman's hands showed, really above 70,000/.
That was a very important deficiency, and one for
which, he confessed, the Right Hon. Gaetlernan the
Secretary for the Admiralty had not assigned any suf-
ficient reason. There was er reale inconvenience in
coming forward at sa icus times and voting certain
sums for the nary at one period, and certain sums at
another period. To couple the Naval to the Supple-
meatary Estitea'es was the way t 3 make a great de-
ficiency he the es..iireites for the present year. Tee
only ex4mation that could be offered by the Naval
D pertinent for bringing them forward in this way
was, that the reason for some of tile estimates could
not hey,: bean foreseer. But he said they must have
known it, or, at least, that they ought to have known
it—(" Hear, hear," from Colonel Sibthorp, and
laughter)—and to have seen that the Supplemen-
tal Estimates they called upon the House to
vote ware perfectly adequate to the demands
of the service. Ile (Sir G. Cierk) took occasion when
the Clianc .11er of the Fecchever brought forward his
budget on the 15th of May last, to call his attention to
the excess of expenditure of tea navy at that period,
mad to show hies !het by the account he had laid upon
the table of the House, it ameaxeil that the naval de-
r artment b tween the ht of Apr 1 1839 and lit of
April 1840 bad received 300,000/. snore than the sum
voted for the services of tea years by the House, and
he had asked him (the Chanceller of the Exchequer)
for some explanation, which, however, was not ghee.
He (Sir G. Cherk) hal stated that the consequence
must be that seine must have been taken from the
estimates voted for the current year to provide for the
excess of foririor .ye.are, and that the Right Honourable
Gentleman would find the sums fur the present ear
would not be suflicieot, and that there would be a
very largo deficierecy of revenue as compared with the
expenditure. lie had moved on the 15th of that
month for an account which showed how that money
bad been provided. It appeared that in April 1839,
there remained a hill ince of the votes of
the former year of no less than 460,204/., tl'e
whale of which sum was no doubt required
to discharge r xpenses previously incurred, and properly
belonging to the year in which tie motley was voted.
The
,nayal department had required for their expenses
300,0001. more than had been voted for the purpose.
'Tr e Admiralty seems to have kept the Treasury in the
dark as to the sum they would require, which he thought
th y had no right to do ; or ease the Chancellor ut the
Exchequer was wrong in not bringing under the notice
of the House the increased expenditure of the navy. It
appeared to him that the various departments of. the
State acted a; if they were independent of each ether,
and that no two were aware of another's procce.lings.
—(Hear, hca-.) There had been a gross blunder in
the preparation of the e tenatas of lest year. The
number of men required tr complete the compleftwht
of the ships was 26,000, while the Admiralty proposed
a vote for 24,000 only. The Noble Lord the Secre-
tary for the Colonies had tell them on that occasion,
that he did rot thief( any increased number of seamen
would be required in consequence of the situation in
which the country was p'aced. He (S;r G. Clerk) had
been glad at the time to have heard that announce-
ment, but he found the House had been misled by it.
The Noble Lord must himself' have known that France
had then refused to be a party to the settlemeet of
the Eastern Question. When the supplementary
estimates had been brought forwa-d, the Noble Lord, on
being asked whether the Government, intended to send a
reinforcement to the Mediterranean, answered that
they did cot, aid that we were not to have more ships
in July than an Jarstelry. A few weeks after, however,
large vessel, the Calcutta, was commissioned for the
Mediterraneae. lie thought therefore he was justified
in saying that if the Noble Lord, the Secretary for the
,Co'onies, had been in communication with the Noble
Lord, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, it would have
been impossible for him to make the statement which
he had made.—(Hoer, hear.) With regard to tire vote
for 161,5001., the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secre-
tary to the Admiralty, had said that if they had moved
for it last year, they might have excited the suspicion of
foreign Powers. lie draught, however, that if they ac-
cepted such a justification they would be laying down a
very dangerous precedent. The Government might,
in that case, bring forward low estimates, and, alter
expenses had been incurred, they would have no power
to refuse the payment of than.--(Hear, hear, hear.)
He thought that was a dangerous principle, af-
fecting one of the great privileges of that House,
namely, the power of maintaining a control
over the Exchequer. He did not t'iink
the Right lion. Geatle.nan's explanation on that sub-
jet had been. satisfactory. The stain required might be
aka an ottnate, but it was in reality a vote for a sum
of money to snake good the deficiency of last year It
appeared on the face of the estimates that they had
28,700 men, whit: there- had beea ly 07 iro
A great increase would amppoeuateh tool hoonn7-obb-e,'‘: ms.'d° :in
d.
our naval force in the
Howe and Britantiia had been seet Cot theer,Ntlvhrt the
nean. But sure lye vessels ought at that tinie"t.otteharvia
been at full comp '!}rent, and they wile then have had
28,000 inc n. The Let was the Admiralty and the
Government were afraid of the opposition of the Hoe.
Member for Kilkenny—(Cheers)—who always objected
to every irlreased expenditure. They ought to have
laid the circumstances fully before the House at the
time of moving the supplemental estimates of last year,
but they had then kept out o f sight a great part of the
expenditure
which had been incurred. He thought they
must also have kept the Ch ancellor of the Exchequerin the
dark. He did not think tire sum.; now asked
would be
sufficient to cover the outstanding demnfromds wthel inight
present existed. He should like to know
Hon. Scwrettiry to the Treasury why
the accounts moved
Harwich had
for by 'his Hen. Friend the Member for
not yet been laid on the table ; that was a most im-
portant elemenfin discussing these estimates.
Mr. R. GORDON.—The returns from which the
account is to be made out have not yet been received.
Sir GEORGE CLERK would then ask why the
Paper for which the Hon. Secretary had himself moved
on the'3d February, a Return of the Debt of the Navy,
bad not yet been laid before the House ? He would
frankly admit that in former times but little interest had
been felt in that document, but it was now one of a most
important character, and ho hoped no time would be
lost in laying it upon the table. He did not know
on what ground they were called upon to make up this
deficiency. From the accounts laid on the table, it ap-
peared that on the 7th January there was a sum of
1,537,5164 to the credit of the Admiralty. Now the
Hon. Secretary to the Admiralty was bound to show
why that sum had not been sufficient to cover the navy
expenses that were likely to be incurred. That it
would probably be insufficient he would admit, more
particularly when he considered the large amount of '
wages due, bat they ought to have the amount before
themr.in order to enable them to form a judgmeat on
the subject ; and they ought to have further information
before being cal'ed on to vote those sums. He did not
offer any opposition to 'the large amount of estimates for
the present year, but he only asked to know the reason
seby
.he was called upon to vote the deficiencies which
aught to have been provided for last year. lie hoped
they should not see in the Navy Estimates what had
111)
long bean objected to in the Ordnance Estimates, a
large and accumulating sum left unprovided for from
year to year. The House should watch narrowly to
prevent this. They
wag
vonitld find that there was a large
amount due for seamen's
be provided for when the shp es,
the full amount had been v which would have to
l
otsed came home. Last year
balance sheet, but that vote
mus,tais appeared from the
tinder some other head, instead of being aPproprit eel t

the payment of wages when the ships should come home.
It swig clear, therefore, that any surplus that might be
required to pay off the ships, would increase the diffl•
culties of the Admiralty. It might be possible that
there was some motive to induce the Admiralty to
keep back a portion of the expenditure of the last year ;
there might be some motive operating on the minds of
her Majesty's Ministers which induced them to call
upon the House to vote sums, large though they were,
which would not be adequate for the purpose for which
they were intended ; they had in fact drawn up such esti-
mates as they thought they should be able to carry
without incurring the 'severe opposition of the Hon.
Member for Kilkenny.—(Hear, hear.) He thought
he had made out a prima facie case against the Admi-
ralty, of attempting to call upon the• House to make
good those deficiencies without further information. If
te Government failed in giving a satisfactery answer
to the Committee, he should move that the two votes to
which he had allud )1 should be postponed till further
information was given.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that the Right Hon.
Baronet had so mixed up several questions together as
to render it difficult to grapple with his statements. He
was not gain; to answer the Hon. Gentleman with re-
gard to those parts of his speech which related to the
mode of keeping the accounis of the navy. His Hon.
Friend the Secretary for the Admiralty, had stated the
grounds upon which he asked for the balance of 29,6941.
as he could add nothing to what his Hon. Friend had
stated on that subject. The Hon. Gen-
tleman, however, had gone on to speak of
the amount of the balance which they
proposed to take to make up the expenditure, and he
had not been sa-istied with taking that amount, but he
had thought proper to discover that the reason why her
Majesty's Ministers had adopted the course they had
dote was because they were afraid of the opposition of
the Hon. Member for Kilkenny. Now with respect to
that supposition the Hon. Gentleman was completely
mistaken ; it certainly was something like the course
adopted by a former Lord of the Admiralty in 1835,
who had asked for estimates less than was necessary for
the services of the year, but such were not the motives
which actuated her Majesty's present Government. The
Hon. Gentleman had stated very truly, that at the time
the estimates were brought forward cast y ear the Go-
vernment did not ask the whole amount required for
the ships iu commission, and the reason of that was, be-
cause some of the ships were on their return home, and
it might not be necessary to fit out other ships ; that was
the real case, and not as the Right Hon. Gentleman
had supposed. At that time it was not supposed there
would be a separation among the Great Powers of Eu-
rope, but in July the question was very much altered.
Iu that month her Majesty's Government had agreed
with certain great Powers of Europe to enter into a con-
vention for the purpose of settling tlre affairs of the East ;
one of the Greet Powers, however, was not a party,
but at the same time it was at first doubtful whether
that Great Power would think it necessary to arm on
account of its being separated from the ether Gnat
Powers. Unfortunately, and before the prorogation of
Parliament, it appeared that the French Government
were determined to increase their navy, and it therefore
became necessary for her Majesty's Government to
consider whether they should immediately augment the
forces, or suspend it t It further proceedings were taken.
His impression was—and that impression was generally
shared by the Government—that if at a time when there
was great exasperation in France, when there was an
undue feeling of resentment because this country had
separated from France upon the. Eastern question, and
the utmost violence was displayed both in the press aid
generally throughout France in speaking of the conduct
of England—if at such a time they had come down to
propose to Pail :tercet, without being certain that it
would be required, a considerable augmentation of force,
they could not have asked for it without stating serious
reasons for so doiug, and there might have been urged
against the conduct of Government the hostile lingua °
and the alienated feelings of France. Why, if they
had done so, he did nut doubt that they should have
obtained the consent of the House to the necessary
augmentation of force. He did not doubt that the
Hon. Member for Kilkenny, if he had chosen to divide
the House, would has e been in a small minority upon
that occasion ; but what he did doubt was, whether if
they had come down with such a case to ask for a con-
siderable augmentation of force, it would not have
tended to increase and influence the exasperation then
prevailing in France, and whether the increase of
armament would not have led to hostilities between
the two countries. For these reasons they did not
propose any increase of force ; and it was not till after
the prorogation of Parliament, when it clearly appeared
that then e was a positive increase taking place in the
French force, and an active equipment of ships going
forward, that ner Majesty's Government thought it ne-
cessary to add to the naval force of this country. The
Hon. Gentleman had said that there was a mistake in
the accounts in relerence to the time when the increase I
was made. The fact was, that the amount of force in I
the early part of the year had been so far below the
amount which was voted, that the amount of money
; voted for the number of men kept up in the early part
of the year was sufficient for the payment of the force
kept up in the latter end of the year, and, therefore, as
regards the question of nimeey—it was different as re-
gards the question of men—but as regards the question I
of money, the wages proposed for there three months
Wilj sufficient to pay for the increased augmentetier.
Ile did not pretend to deny that in old-nary cases, and
as a question of general policy, the G.rvernmei t
would not be justified in making such an increase
without the consent of Parliament. He agreed with
the Hon. Gentleman opposite, who was formerly so
able and convincing in exposing the defects, the negli-
gence, and the irregularity of the Admirdty which
preceded his coming into office, as to the constitutional
rule to be observed in such cases. But the main—the
real question which the Government had to consider
was, bow they might best preserve the peace of Eu-
rope. Whether they should, or should not, make them-
selves responsible for the excess of 161,000/., was quite
a secondary consideration. They wished to prevent
the assembling of seamen on the one side, and the
House of Commons of England on the other, from
entertaining this question in a spirit which might pos-
sibly have led to hostilities, and in pursuing this object
they had not shrunk from the responsibility of having
to ask Parliament for a sum of money which had not
been regularly voted. He (Lord John Russell) was
happy to say that in the main object they had suce ed•
ed.—( Hear.) At that time there remained no d,ffer-
ence between France and England with respect to
Mehemet Ali.—(Hear, hear.) That question, by the
avowal of all parties, was entinly at an end, and there-
fore they had the satisfaction of knowing that, although
their course was open to objection, it had enal 1-d
them to avoid a collision with any of the other
Powers of Europe. He would not pretend to
answer the Hon. Gentleman upon the various topics
which he ha,' gone through, and with which long prac-
tice had made him intimeeely acquaintel, but he had
tirought it necessary to make these remarks in explana
tion of the course which had been pursued.
Mr. HUME said he was glad that the Noble Lord
admitted the extraordinary nature of the proceedings.
The Noble Lord considered that be was warranted by
the peculiar circumstances in which the country was
pl iced, in taking upon hims-lf that responsibility. He
differed entirely from the Noble Lord on that point,
and he would state to the House the grounds on which
he did so. The Noble Lord had stated that by
means of taking upon themselves this responsibi-
lity the Government had maintained the peace
of Europe. He (Mr. Hume) denied that altogether.
He contended that they had disturbed the peace of
Europe. Europe was in perfect peace at the time
when the Noble Lord entered int) that convention of
the 15th of July ; there was not the least sign of a dis-
turbance The French had been increasing the'r fleet
for many leers, but the object of that was to maintain
that position which was consistent with their station
amongst the Powers of Europe. But what did the
Noble Lord say? He said—he (Mr. H.) supposed the
Noble Lord referred to the Cabinet—they had main-
tained the peace of Europe at an expense of 160,0001.
mWi
lion,, go
io Ge
nd
consequence d l
o of
for
the Noble the present
Lord's year
pzeyw, was
and
ten millions would not cover the expenses of that rash a-
far. The Government had no right to enrol more rn
than were voted by the House, without its consent,
and
without such grounds as would appear to the country satis-
factory. Was there anything threatening the peace
of
England or of her Colonies, er of any part of the British
Empire? Nothing whatever. It was an intermeddlirg in
the affair of the Turkish Empire, under the plea of main.
disturbances and the weak that
eees of
edienforth?
io vbeatde
objected to it. He knew
Hume) had warned the Noble Lord
Empire. He (Mr. Hume)_and
w
had ingi ts
perpetuatedintegrity.
ascall
for an additional nu
plans fh
again and again in tmhbeermoonf tsbeaomfJeunlyw,
his to intermoddle in the affairs
what the of Noble Lerd
were, and he knewanxiety
of the East, and thet if he had get the vote it would enable
him to embroil himself. The House, howeve-, differed
with him (Mr. Hume)
and the vote was passed. In July
that the treaty had been
it had come to his knowledge
e
signed, and believing that it would involve the country in
war, he had asked the Noble Lord to sate if thet
were so. The /louse would recoileA s ariser. lie
could get nothing d: finite, but it amounted to a Germ
•were Leading cut troops,
and he was informed that he was mistaken in his informa-1
tien—a general aeswer.—(A laugh ) Now, it tarried
(Hear, hear.) He asked they
out that he had hem correctly informed. Did the Noble
Lord suppose that his conduct at that time would be other-
wise than offeesice to France, and risk the loss of the
friendship and alliance of tat country ? He was
anxious to have the documents before him, because
he thought they would make out a clear case of
neglect. The reel truth was that the Noble Lord
and the Cabinet knew well that they had determined on
hostilities, every dock-yard was full, and mu,ket: and
seamen were sending out to Eft- up disaffection and rehel-
lion in the Best, and give countenance to the interference
havethey hbaedeodeatlleorwmeindedtoon
of the British Government. On the 24th of July
when
separatesit ie
''
withoutthe Ho
that subject. The Right Hon. G• iu
ns
fe
orsmhaotuilodn noon
Gentleman spoke of his
(Mr. H.'s) opposition, but he saw ver well it bad but
o"
little effect. If Hon. Members on the
'y r side supported
him it might have some effect, but whentlie received sup-
port from neithcr, what hope, what chance was there, but