The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-02 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDA Y EVENING, MARCH 2, 1341.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought the measure of such
importance that he could not agree to its passing without the
greatest considerat. on. It should be gone through clause by
clause, and all its provisions duly weighed and considered.
Their so doing before sending it to the other House was the
most safe and practical course, and this would
take up some time. The Honourable Member
had also complained of the proposed poor-law, and
said that it would not be a measure to make Ireland rich. Be
(Lord John Russell) d.d not say that it would do so, but it
would have the effect of inducing the landed proprietors and
the farmers to employ the people instead of supporting ti.em
in the workhouse, and thus lead to the improvement of the
country.—( Hear, hear.) With regard to the money now
spending, it would enable the people to earn something to
keep them alive. The most important question for the Go-
vernment now was, not whether the labour was productive or
not, but to enable the people to keep alive. Still he thought
that even the roads which had been made, and which were
said to be unproductive, would turn out most useful and advan-
tageous. Ile could further assure the lion. Member that
the Waste Lands Bill would be shortly introduced, and that
that, with the New Poor-law, would be proceeded with
without delay. With respect to the Bill now under conside-
ration the Lord Chancellor had gone through the
clauses, and thought them highly important and practical ;
still as the practice; ,f the Court of Chancery in Ireland differed
somewhat. from the practice of the English Cou. t, it was con-
sidered the best course to delay the Bill a little, in order that
its provisions might be fully matured, and that it might, there-
fore, work satisfactorily.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME :aid no one could see the exertions which the
Government were making without being satisfied that they
were doing their best ; still he could not agree with the Noble
Lord that the money now expended was not unproductive.
He (Mr. Hume) (IA not see any evidence of its productive-
ness, while its application was taking the people away from the
cultivation of the land. No time should be lost in carrying
the Bill, to enable the I inded proprietors to receive loans in
order to employ the people on the lands. There was no doubt
but that the land would pay for the capital expended on it. Only
the other day he learned that land in one of the most distressed
counties in Ireland, Kerry had sold for 27 years' purchase. He
thought that as so many of the estates in Ireland were in
Chancery, a Bill should be passed to enable the proprietors to
sell their estates, and apply the results to liberate themselves
from their present unfortunate position.
Lord G. BENTINCK said he could not agree with the
Noble Lord in the picture he had drawn of the benefits which
would arise from the roads that were making, as from a report
of a meeting held the other day in Ireland, at which Mr.
Bianconi, who had been referred to as a great &title- rity in that
House, had spoken. That gentleman had spoken at the
meeting, represented the roads to be in a most deplorable
condition, and of little use for the purposes contemplated. (The
Noble Lord read an extract from the report of the meeting to
this effect.)
Lord J. 'RUSSELL had not said that he was very sanguine
of the benefits which the reads; would produce, but that he
considered they would heneitt flae country, and be the means
of employing the people so as to supply the means of sub-

sistence.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM entertained a strong opinion that
every farthing expended in Ireland, should be spent in a repro-
ductive manner. He did not, however, rise to give this opi-
nion, but to express himself that he thought it unfair and
unjust to press the Government in this period of awful and
unexampled difficulty, or to blame them for delaying to bring
forward the measures which they thought necessary to meet
the crisis. But he would express his opinion in reference to
permanent measures for Ireland, that none would be better
calculated to give relief than a measure giving facilities to
tenants for life to relieve themselves of their incumbrances by
the sale of portions of their land. ( Hear, hear.) Such a
measure was absolutely required, and he rejoiced to hear that
the Lord Chancellor of Ireland had directed his earnest
attention to the question, in order that some relief in
this respect might be given to holders of property.—( Hear.)
There was a clause to put this on equitable principles, but
what was the e.onsequence ? Why, Lord Langdale, Lord
Campbell, the Lord Chancellor, and Lord Lyndhurst had all
allowed that the principles of the Bill were inapplicable to the
circumstances of the country. These principles had been
fully agreed to in that House, and yet these great law Lords
had all assented to the agreement that the bill was quite un-
tenable. On the one hand, there was the difficulty which
must be felt in the Legislature at passing Bills to which these
Lords could net give their consent. Yet he considered that
obtaining the consent of the other House to the improvement
of the Poor Law was of the greatest possible moment, and he
trusted the necessary measures for that purpose would be taken.
Mr. L A ROUCHERE could not but regret the opinion that
the Right Hon. Baronet opposite had expressed as to the two
courses, one of which it was determined that Parliament should
pursue. He deeply regretted that the word of his Noble Friend
the first Lord of the Treasury had not been sufficiently at-
tended te. The Right Hon. Baronet seemed to think that his
Noble Friend conceived that it was immaterial what works
were entered upon, and whether they were useful or unprofit-
able works ; but if he bad examined sufficiently into the state
of the facts, he would find that none of the works on which the
public money had been ex.puendewdhcicohulhdabdebeelelnleindaudneprboadducbteievne
works. ard that the expenditure
of much service in the improvement of property,of the country.
In the consideration of this question, they must go to the con-
sideration of the matters before them, and to save the sacrifice
of human life, and to prevent the extent of human suffering,
and for that purpose they were anxious to promote this mea-
sure. But it had been made a charge against the Govern-
ment, that these people had net been employed upon reproduc-
tive works, and that if the money were to be expended, this
ought to be resorted to. But were not these people already
engaged, directly or indirectly, in the cultivation of the soil.
He had stated over and over again, that the object of the Go-
vernment in the planning of these works, was the employment
of the people with a view to the preservation of human life.
But, as the Right Hon. Baronet bad observed, this could only
be attained by the expenditure of a large sum of money. The
great question was, as to how this plan would
succeed in the improvement of the country. What
would have been the circumstances had this grant
not been made. Why, the probability was that the suffering
would not have been relieved, and yet the money would have
been equally expended, and therefore it was that he was re-
joiced that they bad given their assistance, and that the people
had been employed upon public, rather than upon re-productive
works. He would not trouble the House with further remarks,
but could not help expressing his regret that their. measures
had not met with the approval of the Hon. Member for Dor •
setshire (Mr. S. Herbert), whose opinion was always of so
much weight in that House.
Sir D. NORREYS—The Noble Lord was desirous of de-
veloping the resources of Ireland. Let him do so in a manly
manner, and let no man tal• e up a mine or any other public
work without the sanction of Government. Would it not be
better now, if the Noble Lord has any measure in
hand, to submit that to the Board of Works, and see
whether it was feasible or not. This principle might be
observed as respected either a bank or a public road,
Ile would now give an instance of this Act. He had an offer
from some gentlemen to erect a mill at an expense of from
14,0001. to 15,0001., but he could not accede to their offer
because he could not force the occupants of certain lands to give
him aright of way to the entrance to the mill. Then there was
another case which had come under his notice. There was a
limestone quarry which could not be brought into play, because
the original holders of the land refused to grant their assistance
to the conveyance of the stone from the quarry, and he was
Taite satisfied that unless some measures were taken for expe-
diting the means for enabling public works to be carried en it
would be utterly futile to pass any measure for the improve-
ment of Ireland.
Mr. BAILEY believed that unless there were some mea-
sures for enabling the proprietors to get rid of their entailed
estates, any measures to which the Government might accede
would be of no use whatever.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL said that a great misunderstanding
prevailed on this subject. He had himself been largely en-
gaged in the appropriation of the means provided for the im-
provement of Ireland, especially in the most cultivated districts
in Ireland. He meant those about Dublin. The great object
was, to give employment to the people, and they had found that
the making of roads had been of the utmost possible advantage,
for they afforded to the most destitute immediate employment.
One fault only had, as it appeared to him, been committed,
and that was the endeavour to do the work which required
17,000,000 e with a grant of 10,000,000/.•' a grant which was
totally inapplicable to the purpose. Sure he was that if the
Government acted consistently they would not find the gentle.
men of Ireland behindhand in rendering their assistance.
Mr. SHAW was unwilling to say a single word, but he
thought that the Bill of the Government might have been
sooner brought forward, and he regretted this the more as
there was an evident desire on both sides of the House that it
should he carried forward as speedily as possible.
Mr. P. SCROPE waa anxious to know the result of the
Drainage Act of last session, for it appeared to him that it
had not been sufficiently followed our. He had had communi-
cations from Ireland in which it was stated that the land in the
neighbourhood of the writers was quite under wa'er, and he
felt assured that if that Act had beet) fully carried out, that no
difficulty would have been experienced respecting those public
works.
After a few words from Mr. BAILEY,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he should be prepared
to answer the question on Monday next, and he could not
witheut preparation undertake to answer all the questions
respectingrespect
thethe measures which
Drainage
Billhad ,
of whicretiedostnptiahiis ntHse. W
had
dbeen
madeith
by his o
is
lipopon; opportunity had
d(Ni
r.
been S
takener°P eto )' all
lnhder he could
ul
dAscaty aswas tha t
avail-
able as possible, and as there
he might say with respect to the wqausestt ioonbe.
fa nhoi tsh eir
odni? eFursiseinond:
that he would then be able to learn what the intentions of
Government were.
of LINCOLN C
of thOs,LuNolinad listeeinnbederwoifthsmt much attention to
Government
to
observationstheTheEarl
did feel that. the intentions of the Act
had not been
fully carried out, and that the sanction of the
had been fully justified. And the more so that from
130 per cent. of the funds had been applied to the purposes of
this Act.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN regretted that no intimation had
been given by the Government of the plan which they intended
to adopt ; for, if they had, he felt assured that not only would
the system itself have been most satisfactory to the country,
but that it would be more eminently instrumental in the pro.
motion cf the public welfare.
The vote was then postponed until Monday next.
ARMY ESTIMATES.
On the motion that the House go into a Committee of
Supply on the army estimates,
Mr. HUME said that he exceedingly regretted that the
Government should have taken the course which they had
adopted in the arrangement of these estimates, for he saw no
reason whatever for the increase of the sum to be
voted for these estimates. Since the year 1822 the
estimates for this purpose were upwards of 20,000,0001.
in excess of what they were, and for this he saw no reason
whatever. During the years 1835, 6, and 7he found that the
whole of the estimates for the purposes of war were upwards
of 43.000.000/., giving an average for the three years of more
than 14.473,0001 and since the year 1813 they had increased
to the extent of more than 3,000,000/. He did not see any
reason for this, for the difference was not great between the
present year and that of 1828, when the army had been re-
duced. For his own part he did not see that there was any
great necessity for a larger military establishment than that
which existed in 1792, and to that standing he thought the
army ought to be approximated if it were not reduced to that
hGeosevewrnermeemntatr
wteusiwde
hatlwell
deserving
allow theof
minaqtuteirry,taondpahses
eat
trusteden. the T
without sufficient investigation.
Sir DE LACY EVANS could, as he believed, make con-
siderable pretensions to the character of a liberal Member of
that House, but he would never be a party to embarrass the
Government by such a reduction of the army estimates as that
which had been suggested by the Hon. Member for Montrose
( Mr. Hume).—( Hear, hear.) The wants of this great
empire were not to be satisfied by a meagre force.
with regard to what had fallen from the Honourable Member
for Montrose upon the subject of economy, he could only say,
that at no hustings would he ever give a pledge to make any
silly or foolish reductions in the public expenditure, and thus
jeopardise the defences of the country.
Lord GEORGE BENTINCK said nothing could be more
rash and silly than reductions at the expense of the security of
the country. He had heard with great surprise from free tra-
ders opposite, that no sooner had they es ablished free trade,
then t!ies were oblige i to inerense +lob- rrilitiry operations; tv.-
csui, tlie.'y were once toll, that the effects of free trade would
be to produce peace, lay desolate fortifications, disband enemies,
and do away with the navy. Now he, as a protectionist, never
saw that any of these consequences would arise, nor did he

ever believe that free trade would lead to more harmony be-
tween foreign countries and Great Britain, But it was not be-
cause free traders were disappointed in that respect that he
was disposed not to listen to any unwise or foolish reductions in
our military or naval establishment, nor was he inclined in any
way to expose the security of the country to the intrigues of
foreign nations.—( Hear, hear. )
Dr. BOWRING said the Noble Lord had evidently taken
an erroneous view of the opinions of free trailers. He had
heard with regret some of the favourable terms of olden times,
such as silly and miserable reductions, rash retrenchments. and
so forth, for he believed the people entertained a strong hope
that the military and naval establishments of the country would
be diminished. For himself, he thought our merchants were
a far better protection to the country than either the army or
the navy, and whatever might hereafter pass on the hustings,
he could only say that he had already received more than one
strong remonstrance, more than one severe lesson from his con-
stituents, to take care not to lend himself to any unnecessary
augmentation of the funds appropriated to the support of the
army and navy.—( Hear, hear.) Unlimited control was placed
in the hands of the Government over the finances of the
nation, and they ought to show their respect of that confidence
by economising in the army and naval departments as much as
possible.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. WILLIAMS would make but a very few observations
at this period of the debate. Ho was quite prepared to admit
that any expenditure, however extravagant, would be defended
by professional gentlemen connected with the army and navy,
so far as they were concerned ; and perhaps they were justified
in doing so.—( Hear, hear.) He had hoped that the Noble
Lord the Prime Minister would have followed the example
of the Governments of Earl Grey and Lord Melbourne
of which the Noble Lord himself was a distinguished member.
The first act of Earl Grey, after reforming the House of Corn.
mons, was to propose a reduction in the expenditure in the
army and navy ; and when Lord Melbourne came in'.o office, he
made various further reductions in several departments, till at
last they were brought down to something less than eight mil-
lions. He was surprised to hear, the other night, the Right
Honourable the Secretary for the Admiralty, state, that the
available arm] for Great Britain only amounted to 20,000 men.
Now so far from this being the case in the year 1836, reducing
from the aggregate number, the men requirrd for Ireland and
the colonies, there was left a force of 77,000 men disposable in
Great Britain, which could have been brought down to the
coast at any moment, to destroy the French army had they at-
tempted an invasion —( Hear and laughter.) It was therefore
his intention to propose a reduction of twenty
thousand men when the Estimates came before
them, and still,' after that reduction was made, the army would
consist of 32,084 men more than it did in 1835. He should
propose that the Horse Guards be reduced to 500 men, and he
could not see how the House could reasonably object to this,
for no one ever saw so many as 500 guards on duty at once.—
( Hear, hear.) He would also propose a reduction in the Foot
Guards of just one half, vie., from 5,260, to 2 630 ; the cost of
this reduction would las 105,4521.—( Laughter )—the cost of
the reduction of the Life Guards would be 115,040/.—(Laugh-
ter)—making a total cost in the reduction of these two depart-
ments of 220,4921.—( Renewed laughter.)
Mr. B. DISRAELI—Is that the cost of the reduction ?
Mr. WILLIAMS—Yes.—( Continued laughter.) The
Hon. Member then went on to allude to the dead weight of
the country—the pension list. The total amount of pensions
was 3,702,0001. A great portion of those who received these
sums had done nothing for the public service. He had no ob-
jection to see merit and services duly rewarded ; he would
maintain in respectability every body who had lost his Ile in
the public service—( Loud laughter)—or rather his widow and
children. The Hon. Member then proceeded to state his be-
lief that if this country were to reduce its military establish.
ments, France would do the same ; and proceeded at some length
to show that the financial condition of that country rendered it
imperatively necessary for the French Government to adopt
that course.
Mr. 13ROTHERTON protested against the time of the
House being wasted in the manner it had been by the lion.
Member who had just sat down. He should feel it his duty,
if the course were pursued, to move the adjournment of the
House.—(Hear, hear.) It was a great interruption to public
business.—( Hear, hear.) He thotight the House ought to go
into Committee, and get at once to business.—( Hear,)
The House then went into a Committee of Supply.
ARMY ESTIMATES.
Mr. FOX MAULE said he thought the Hon. Member for
Coventry (Mr. Williams) would not quarrel with him if he
stated his opinion to the House, that he thought they were
much indebted to the Hon. Member fur Salford ( Mr. Bro-
therton) for the remarks he had just made. It would have
been much more convenient to have discussed the several
points which had been adverted to by the Hon. Member as
they had arisen in Committee, than that he should have made
a statement mixing up together the army, the navy, and the
ordnance, and thereby rendering it almost impossible to meet
at once the Irish police, the Archbishop of Dublin, and the
numerous other complaints of the Honourable Member.—
( Laughter.) With respect to the remarks of the Honourable
Member for Montrose upon the army estimates, to the effect
that there was a decrease upon the effective, but a large in-
crease upon the non-effective force, the Hon. Member should
have recollected that he was at least an accessory before the
fact, because he was one of those who asserted as cordially as
any ether Hon. Member to the remission of the charge upon
the poundage of Chelsea pensioners, amounting to a sum of
50,0001. He would not then take upon himself to enter into
the question of the general policy of the Government, but
would confine himself to the business immediately before the
Committee, if the Committee would bear with him for a few
minutes while he made the usual financial statement of the
military affairs of this country. He thought lie should best
consult the convenience of the Committee if lie applied himself
to the estimates immediately before the House, and afterwards
allude generally to those topics of military interest of which
the Committee might be desirous oftearning something at his
hand. Upon reference to the estimates, it would appear that
the number of men to be voted injhe aggregate for the ensuing
year was 138,895, the gross charge for these would be
5,155,8481. The gross charge for the non-effective force during
the present year was 2,175,2271., making a total gross charge of
7,331,075/. From that sum, however, there fell to be de-
ductied the sum paid for 30,497 men by the East India Com-
pany .... £972,211
Appropriations in aid of the effective force
Balance from the Royal Military College
Appropriation in aid of the Royal Military Asylum 6,145
Appropriations in aid of the non-effective force 7,137

Making a total to be deducted from the gross
charge of
Leaving a charge on the present year of 6;275,0741., and the
number of men to be voted 108,393, making a small decrease
upon the number which was taken lest year. of '2lO men.
There were some charges of course in the different arrange-
ments of this number, and he thought it right to state some
of those charges to the Committee. There has been a decrease
in the regiments coming from foreign service. Five regiments
which will arrive from foreign service, had, during the time
they were abroad, borne a strength of one thousand men,
those regiments would be reduced upon their arrival
at home, each of them, to eight hundred men,
That reduction, together with a reduction of some nen. com

missioned officers, would cause a total reduction of 1,075 men.
There was also another small reduction, amounting to 37 men,
which would make a total reduction of 1,111 men. With the

exception of 210 men, those diterences were supplied in the
following manner, and as it involved a principle, he would make
a statement upon that subject to the Committee, in as short a
time ss possible. It is proposed to raise a body of 682 men,
including officers, for the service of the garrison at Hong-
Kong, and it was also proposed to add this body to the Ceylon
corps, and in adopting this mode of providing for the service
of Hong Kong, the Government would be acting upon a princi-
ple which had formerly been much discussed in that House, a
principle upon which he had very considerable opinions, and
that was the mode of applying, wherever it was possible, the
colonial corps, for the purpose of taking charge of the colonial
povessions.—(Hear, hear.) This mode was more economical
in point of administration, and infinitely more economical in a
still more essential point of view, he alluded to the preserva-
tion of the health and lives of soldiers —(Hear, hear)—and
therefore it was that the Government had come to the resolu-
tion that, instead of keeping British troops at Hong Kong,
where he was sorry to say that they had fallen a prey
to diseases incident to that climate, it would be better, and
they had accordingly proposed that the garrison of Hong
Kong should be occupied by a corresponding number of men
drawn from the Ceylon .orps. Another increase, and this,
although the first, he was afraid would not be the last increase,
in the Cape corps. The Governor had already added two
companies to that corps, amounting to 174 men. But Sir H.
Fottinger and Major-General Berkley, who had recently gone
out there, had been instructed to add four more companies to
that corps, and be would say that it was in contemplation fur-
ther to consider the means of providing for the de•
fences of the extended territory of that colony, by means of
colonial corps, so as to relieve this country of a
considerable portion of the expense. There was
also another small addition of 45 men, making a total addition
of 901 men, which taken trom the 1,111 men left an actual de-
crease for the ensuing year of 210 men. The Hon. Member
for Coventry (Mr. Williams) proposed to effect a reduction of
20,000 men ; for his part he would say that if the Government
could spare 20,000 men, without reference to the defences of
the country, but simply with respect to the general operation of
the relief of the burdens upon ticountry, he should be happy
to do se. His belief was that if the Government wished to
relieve their regiments in anything like a proper man-
ner—(Hear, hear)—the most effectual manner of pre-
venting their doing so would be to diminish the force
in the mode prescribed by the Honourable Member
for Coventry. He believed that there was at the present
period no regiment which had not been in India for a period of
upwards of 14i years, and he believed that there was now no
regiment at home which had remained in this country for more
than Luc years, and he hoped that in the course of time (for
it would require time to effect it) that the Government would
be able to bring down the largest term of absence of any
regiment from this country to a period not exceeding
thirteen years. He would then pass on to the next vote—
the charge for the land forces for the ensuing year.
Upon the land force charge there was a decrease to the public
theh i cli
,i wasp Cape
to
ofGood Eiop
of 44,151/., owing to appropriations in aid. Had it not been
for these appropriations there would not have been any
wasof
pt,
ot
c the e
d worst i
n a w
a ways to
reduction on this charge. The next vote to which he came
was the staff. On that vote there was an increase of 8,3431.,
occasioneddoso in abey littleth e
and
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tthink
nk thee theyT The
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ment that had taken
')l
Caffres, and had laid place
had completely paralysed the
foundation of the hope of
submission. No corps could
than that which was acquit themselves more gallantly
On that vote, commanded by Colonel Somerset.
therefore, there would bean
stated, of 8,3431. The fourth vote increase, as he had
the Public Department,
and
the on the estimates was in
increase en that was 2,0931.,
which was caused by the increase of postage,
by the increase of work in the department.art The
e was caused
was for the Royal Military Asylum. The estimaten next vote
this
year was 17,6331., and for last year 14,0621., there being
an increase of 3,5
71/, for a vote to which he would
allude more particularly by and bye—one for the fur-
thersnce of a new system of education in that establish-
ment. but he would at present pass on to the other votes.
The next vote was for the volunteer corps, which it was pro-
posed to increase this year to 3,929'. In the estimates last
year a vote of 36,500/• was taken for the unprovided services,
hut it wa' not proposed this year to take any vote for them,
but to leave them to be paid for as they might arise. Taking,
then, the sum of these respective increases, 17.9361. from this
36.500/., the vete for the unprovided services of last year, a
balance of 18,564/. would be left, which, if added to the de-
crease on the land force, would make altogether a decrease in
the effective services of 62,705/. He new came to the non-
effective services. The Honourable Member for Mon-
trose said that there was a large increase on these
services. He said there was a steady increase on every vote.
Now he (Mr. F. Maule) did not think the Hen. Gentleman
studied the-e estimates with the care he usually bestowed upon
them, because a comparison of this year's estimates with those
of last year, was not a fair one, inasmuch asthe vote of last
year comprehended merely three quarters, while the
year extended over four. He (Mr. F. Maule) should,
there-
fore,
take the account in its various details, and would state it
to the House. The first vote was for the reward of distin-
guished services. On this vote there was an increase of 3,740/.
The estimated charge of last year (four quarters) had been
caleulate4 would have amounted to 16,0791.. while for this
yesr the vote was 15,774,:1., so that, in point ot I,t: • ''' '
Iwas an actual decrease this year of 339/., though there was an
apparent increase. This, however, was not a vote on which
the Hon. Member would like to see a steady decrease. Those

who had the interests of the army at. hee.rt would not object to
an occasional increase of this vote. This year it was proposed
to give 1,040/. to offs ters as rewards for meritorious services
The next vote was the pay of general officers. In this vote it
was proposed to make an increase of 33,000/., but that vote
contained the expenses of the arrangements against which the
Edon. Member protested—the expenses of the brevet. Deduct-
ing, however, the extra quarter of last year, which was
16,0001., the real increase over the vote of last year was re-
duced to 17,000/. And a brevet going to the extent it did
with an increase over the ordinary estimate of only 17,000/.
was nut a matter which could afford grounds for any dissatis-
faction. The next vote was for the retiring full-pay. This
vote was estimated at 13,0001., while for that of last year it
was 15,000/., so that on this vote there was a reduction of
2,0001. He now came to the half-pay, and his Hon. Friend
said that this was a vote continually increasing.
Mr. WILLI ANlS—Only a part of it.
Mr. F. MAULE—IIis lion. Friend said only a part of it.
Well, he held in his hand a parer which gave the state of this
vote from 1830, from which it appeared that it was going on
gradually decreasing from 720.000/. to 420,900/. There was
an actual decrease this year of 14,000/. He now came to the
foreign half pay. The vote last year was for 50,281/, but
for this year it was 49,136 g., so that there was
a decrease of 1,1451. He now ewe to the widow's
pension. The vote last year was 138,819/., and for the pre-
sent it was proposed to he 131,8541., so that there would be a
decrease of 6,9651. He held in his hand a comparative state-
ment of this vote from 1830, and it was gradually reduced
from 145,000/. to 131,851/. There was also to be a reduction
on the next vote. The vote for the compassionate allowances
was also to be reduced. Last year the vote was 102,0./01., and
for the present year it. was proposed to be 98,000/. On
the vote for the pensions fir Chelsea and Kil-
mainharn, calculating the four quarters of last year,
there was a small increase in the estimate of last year
of 1,973/., which went to the establishment at Chelsea.
He now came to the out -pensioners, for whom the largest vote
4,8
in
3t3he3t,
service
the
whole charge was r
rge h
eThisin a i,.23
year
8:
oh7o3wie. d
Lastan increaseof
3e
charge wos 1,191,315/. It was necessary to explain the cause
the
of this increase. He found that there were 961 more men ou
this list than last year, whose pensions amounted to 14,051/.
The commuted pensions amounted to 1,500/., and others, of
smaller amount, to 1,7441., which would have re-
duced this vote, but for the increase of numbers
to which he had referred. The House had relinquished
the charge formerly made on out-pensioners, on the payment
of their allowances, which had led to an increase of 50,000/.; but
he thought this was simply an act of justice, to which he was
sure no one would for a moment object. Next there was a
charge of 60,000/., to which he wished to call particular
attention, for organising a body to proceed to New Zealand,
under the command of Capt. Tulloch. The object was two-
fold. They proposed sending, under the charge of 6 officers,
a body of 500 men, with their families, for the purpose of
being located there, under certain advantages to which he
would allude more fully at another period. He
would state, however, that they were to be located
in settlements, and to perform certain duties for a period of
seven years, at the expiration of which they were to be put
into possession of the land with the view of their becoming
valuable settlers in the colony. They would afford a de-
fence to the colony, and would be liable to be called out
for that purpose by the Governor, in short they would,
he was Suite sure, at a moderate expense, be the means of doing
great service to the colony in a wholesome and proper way.—
(Hear, hear.) The general charge, of which this was an item,
was 291,0001., making an increase of 61,6771., for which
16,939/. had to be deducted, so that there would be an increase
in the vote of 45,000/. It had been stated that there
was an increase of 9,0001. in the superannuation allowances ;
but this was not the case, as the expense of this year would be
similar to the last. These were the details of the non .effective
service, in which there was a gross increase of 254,890/. ; but
there was to be set against that 218,9711., which really reduced the
increase to only 35,911 ; but if that was taken from the de-
crease in the effective service 62,617/., it would show a de-
crease upon the revenue of the year of 46,860/., (as we under-
stood). He thought the Committee would admit that the
War-office had paid attention to economy in framing the esti-
mates for the ensuing year. Before, however, he closed this
part of his statement, he wished to allude to one ob-
servation—to an observation which had fallen from the
Honourable Member for Montrose—a statement which
he believed he made somewhat accidentally—he said every
department seemed to think it their duty to make their
estimates as high as possible, but for his department he (Mr.
F. Maule) might say, that its object was to make the estimates
as low as possible, and if he would consult those who were in
the service ( f that department, and those who were seeking
to gain anything from it, lie would find that his statement was
entirely erroneous.—( Hear.) With regard to the efficiency of
the army, he would not say another word further than this—
that its efficiency was such as it always had been, and such as
he trusted it would always maintain. With respect to the un-
healthy state of the barracks in the West Indies, and in Jamaica
and other parts, he might state that black troops were in the
habit of doing duty in many of these places, instead of the white
troops ; and he might state that the mortality in these islands,
and unhealthy islands, it appeared that in the Mediterranean,
rwriotlmi thaereetxucrenptwiohnie,
hpehrehahpesl,d oinf
his hand,
sshlow3-inlgOththsepehreacletnhty.
up to the 31st of March, 1846, the mortality was.l-30th
per
1836, 2 1-10th ;in New South Wales and the Cape of Good
cent.
Canada,; a nadndinHtharemyuedaar
,18t16, ,
t2o.3Altahrseh; ,
1843, U 1 risit.eisol
tShata;teisn,
Hope, in 1846, it was l 4-10111 s, and nearly the same in 1836 ;
in St. Helena, the Mauritius, and Jamaica. in 1846, it was
soof the
1 9-10ths per cent. ; and in 1836 it was 111 men in every 1,000.
Butt
r e the
ne improvement
the
improveim p improved
he d
ecaol
ntl;
n
of the troops. In the unhealthy stations, in Ceylon, for in-
stance, he might state that the whole mortality was greater
ba barracks k ofs h
a thed
donerations, n
mu,chan to s r od
than could be wished at the present moment, as it was
4 4-10ths per cent. ; but, in 1836 it was 7 5-10ths per cent.
In Hong-Kong it was also considerable, but he hoped, by the
aid of colonial troops instead of British troops, that less sacrifice
of life would take place. He had all the means of knowing the
mortality in India, but he had little means of con-
trolling it. He hoped, however, that it would be
considerably reduced by the introduction of improvements
No man was more impressed with the importance of those
improvements than the Noble Lord who held supreme com-
mand in India, and he hoped when his mind was less occupied
with the condition of India, that he would realise the intention
he had often expressed of introducing improvements in the
barracks, and that before he retraced his homeward steps, he
would have formed acme plan of residence of the troops in
India, whilst not required in the field, in barracks
erected in healthy situations, in the highlands, and
particularly in the mountains above Madras, for
those in that part of India. Wish respect to the
moral training going on in the army, he proposed t.a.kitnhgea;iiltie
of 2,000/. for establishing schools in connexion h
ci le of
training of schoolmasters --a model school—on the phrinorp
han
the regimental schools, and an infant school for t e p
h.
tart' Asylum. They proposed establishing a school for the-
children of British soldiers. This grant was proposPd by is
years the army would look on him with gratitude. 11 h
• of children,
lieved it would lead not only to the education
Noble Friend who had preceded him in his office, and in future
be the means
adult soldier, which, perhaps, might old
but be the means of imparting education to the
of enabling him to do something for his support ins old
5 aage,
whether pensioned or not pensioned. The army librarie
uhr.andg
he was happy to state, been increased by 10,000 volumes
similardi
the year, and he proposed taking a vote of 2,000/. for a
head
purpose. With regard to the discipline in the army, , "
only to state, and he experienced satisfaction
since January last up to the close of the year, oann.
he
cases of corporal punishment had occurred ; d .
tice of in-
exnected to see, in a short space of time, the prac ,
inflicting such a punishment d •altogether.Cheerg'i
The dying away ,
army prisons were working well—as well as could p
ld pos-
reat
sibly be wished. There were nine of these prisons i in
Britain and Ireland, of which four were in Ireland and
A one
the
Scotland, but there were cells in all the barracks, an- from
he
in doing no, thatfive
returns he had received, which were most satisfactory,
was
found that their effect upon the morals of the soldiereson.a-
most important, as the soldiers were separated from the t•
mination of the civil gaols. The improvesnent in this
- el arrn•
one of the most important ever introduced into the !S
nth,,under
whereas it took days and weeks, and sometimes regiment.
the old system, to make a man available tonhis
leastde-
There is no one instance of any soldier being
i the' lent they
gree injured by the punishment ; and however vw
. whereas,
were, going in, they in all instances came out better respect was
plaints were made against it, but he VMS gand com-
came out better. The labour in'the prison was severe,
disposed to
under the old system, the soldier going into the civil ' aol never
The
attend to them, as long as it did no injury to theemreise
_,
d that
labour was so severe, and such was the rig for ex for the por-
no soldier was known voluntarily to go into noteh.
pose of shirking duty, and there was no InaPnri'ohno'
owhis hest not to
did not come out, most heartily intending to d ,
its to which
go in again. Those were the
were other to which
he would at present allude. There were other m
by degrees.
,the attention of the Government would be
turned
the barracks.
more particularly to the comfort of the soldieryrei
of making for
The proposal which he should have the pleasure went in that
soldiery,would prove
the Government over
to the army at large the anxious care of
up what he saw
the purpose of limiting the service of the
their interests, and he did trust that, following
the
pinny
was a
to be the feeling of the House—namely, that
service the interests of which in some respects
to
ith eird been too
comforts
long overlooked—they would attend
with a greater mn
uteness, for let the House believe him when
he assured it, that the more they took ease of the soldiery in
o erve
them faithfully in the time of s
the time of peace the more disposed theywould be t
He did
war.—(Hear,hear.)
had
inculcate, that they
the duty of the Government to
and welfare ef
would be able to promote the happiness
would induce the people
the soldiers, and that they .
trust that consistently with the maxims
d refuse of society—to enter
of the country—not the outcasts which it was
to embark, in which at-
they might encourage their
:nt aot
hadenmy e leaf t
twh he i eh
debate. had been
lii 8
oral training, and from which
tention will be paid to their m
uddbraeonnnourahle profession in which
roved and, worth members
nip Y
the service, to esteetmheitnt as an 1
they would receive
of society.—( Loud cheers.)
was
Hon Gentleman the clearest and most
made by the Right •
ever had the pleasure of hearing since h
6
ableexposition which he
had the •ng a seat in that House
honour of hays , . He id
Mr. WILLI Aal S
but, on consulting with . .
his friends, he had received men,
ver little
said t hatunthseealrsf,
g no possibl
e chance of success
encouragement, and seem
the h he
intend to have proposed a reduction of twenty thousand
did not intend to interrupt
h.
friends around him, and he great confidence that
Government would be in office next .
the present . year, when
would he again voted, arid that then '
these estimates a very '
ald be made.
great reduction svi(;E
LACY EVANS said
General Sir he experienced
' faction indeed from the statement made
very great sans He
hoped that by the
Right •
Hon Gentleman.
ttention to the establish
the Government
would turn their a ment of discipline
d in I
hich hail been one a most all other •
companies, w•
Dint the attention of the Governmentservices.
He would also point to the
the soldiers '
accommodation afforded toin barracks, which was
not
exceedingly deficient, there
ofbeing more than one foot be.
most them.--s re
each of the beds in s ssear.)
tween HERBERT said he
Mr. .SIDNEY HER.B . was very well pleased
de by the Right Hon.
at the statement ma the Government Gentleman
his suc-
cessor in office. He hoped that the Government would en-
deavour to introduce sore extensively the system of rewards
anti examination,
disappointed Mr. ETWALL said he was to find the small
amount of eight or nine thousandpounds voted for the purpose
of education in the army. He would express his hope
that a far larger sum would be set apart next
year for that purpose. He was sorry also to perceive that
there was only required a sum of 2,000/. to pay interest upon
moneys lodged in the regimental savings' banks. He for one,
as a Member of the British Legislature, would ever seek to,
advance the interests of the army intellectually.
Mr. GOULBURN said, after the observations which had
fallen from the Hon. Gentleman in regard to the reduction
of the colonial corps, he felt he must decidedly enter
his protest against any such proposition, He would grant
that in particular colonies, where the expenses fell heavy
on the British subjec', a reduction might be effected
without injury ; but against the proposition of a l genera
re-
duction of the colonial corps, he would certainly
test • for that might be done in a time of peace
enter his pro-
small saving of expense, but, in a time of war,pditfleeeul with somehl
arise in collecting sufficient force to meet necessitiesthe tieswould
such
a time which would more than balance any trifling saving
of
saviug they
could effect. But another point which he wished
• • -1,- ITeese ...-e , is, C,.,,,, ~,„,;,,
of to impress
,i , . 1 n the trry,Taq. wherever
they might be located, in Australia, Canada, or anywhere else,
should be looked upon and treated as an integral
of the imperial army. He said this, that the forces, wherever

they might be found, might be always maintained throughout
every company in an effective state.
The vote of 108,393 men for the land service for the ensuing
year was then agreed to.
The vote of 3,728,737/. for the payment of the land forces
of Great Britain and Ireland and the dependencies, except
East India, for the ensuing year, was then agreed to.
Sir C. NAPIER said they had now proceeded with two
votes for the army, and agreed to them ; he hoped, according
to the promise of the Noble Lord, that the Government would
now proceed with the navy estimates. There were several
Hon. Members besides himself who had waited the whole of
the night in the hope that the Noble Lord would fulfil his pro-
mise, and he trusted that even yet he would do so.
Mr. FOX MAULE said that would he mere waste of time.
Sir C. NAPIER did not see that it would be any waste of
time. Several lion. Gentlemen had been waiting for the ex-
press purpose in the House the whole night, and he himself had
been waiting anxiously, and he hoped they would proceed im-
mediately to the navy estimates. He had to go to Portsmouth,
so that it was impassible for him to be present if it were to be
postponed ; indeed, it was not fair to postpone it. He could not
accede to it.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he had hoped that the army
estimates would have come on at an earlier period of the even-
ing, but he was afraid that at that late hour nothing could be
done if they should turn new to the navy estimates.
Sir C. NAPIER said he would not agree to this. He
would not accede. A promise had been made that the navy
estimates would have been taken that night ; unless that were
done, he must beg that Mr. Greene would report progress.
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the House going that night
into the navy estimates He could not agree to it, and thought
it would be but wasting time.
Sir C. NAPIER said it was not a waste of time at all.
Why, he supposed that eight or ten votes might be got through.
He had much to say upon them, and business would not allow
him to be present if they were postponed to another night.
Mr. FOX MAULE—The Gallant Admiral is bent on
delaying the public business.
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to their going into Committee
on the navy estimates.
Sir C. NAPIER. said he had reason for acting thus. He
bad the promise of the Noble Lord that the navy estimates
would come on that night, and he could not be present on Fri-
day night.
LordJ. RUSSELL said he might meet both parties. He
promised that the ordnance estimates should come on en Friday
night after the army estimates, instead of the navy.
Sir C. NAPIER agreed.
The following votes were then agreed to:—
The vote of 177,7781. for the expenses of the general staff
officers for the ensuing year.
The vote of 96,532/. for the Public Military Department
for the ensuing year.
The vote of 17,6331. for the Royal Military Asylum for the
ensuing year.
The following votes were also agreed to :-
86,304/. to defray the expenses of the volunteer corps.
15,7401. to defray the expense of rewards for distinguished
services.

82,000!. to defray the charge of the general officers in her
Majesty's service.
59,000!. to defray the charge of the retired officers of the
land forces. _ _

420,0001. to defray the charge of the half-pay of the
military officers of the land forces.
49,136!. to defray tlae charge of the half-pay of foreign officers
who have been engaged in the British service.
131,b59f. to defray the charge of the widows and orphans of
those who had been engaged is land forces.
Se,oool. to defray the charge of the royal bounty.
36,623'. to defray the charge of the Chelsea and Kilmainham
Hospitals.
1,236,7321 to defray the charge of the out-pensioners
of Chelsea Hospital.
On the vote of 35,000/. being proposed for the charge of the
public departments of the land forces of Great Britain and
Ireland, _ .

Sir DE LACY EVANS complained of the way in which
the Government bad acted in respect to the granting of medals,
ind hoped the matter would be attended to, in order to remove
the impression which existed in the army on the subject.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL, in some observations which were
very nearly inaudible, was understood to say thst the Govern-
ment had it under their consideration to issue medals to all
those alive who had been engaged in any engagements on be-
half of this country.
Sir R. PEEL wished to know whether or not the Govern-
ment had come to any decision with respect to a public monu-
ment to the memory of Sir Robert Sale, General Nott, and
the other eminent officers who had distinguished themselves in
India ?

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he understood that it was
the intention of her Majesty's late Government to erect some
testimonial to the memory of all the officers who had fallen in
India, and the present Government intended to carry out the
proposal.
Sir R. PEEL thought, instead of having a separate statue
on each, it would be best to have some public record of the two
battles, which should commemorate the actions, and at the
same time to have a separate medallion for the specific services
performed at each battle.
Sir C. NAPIER said that as medals were to be given to
the officers who had fought in India; he wished to know why
the same honour had not been granted to the officers who had
behaved themselves so well in Syria ? The taking of St.
Jean D'Acre was considered at the time a very wonderful
achievement. He saw nothing wonderful in it, but still he
thought if medals were givers to officers in India, the same
ought to be given to the officers engaged in Syria. He did not
care for these things himself, but still the officers and men
naturally asked what was the reason that, when others were
rewarded, they were forgotten?
Lord J. RUSSELL reminded the Hon. and Gallant Mem-
ber that no decorations had been granted for the battle of
Algiers and of Navarino.

Sir C. NAPIER said that the persons engaged in these
battles ought. to have been rewarded. Algiers was one of the
strongest towns in the world, and it had been taken by four or
five sail of the line, and probably there was no other man
besides Lord Exmouth who would have undertaken the task.
With respect to the battle of Navarino, that was a very differ-
ent thing ; but even there the officer in command had taken
an inferior fleet into a narrow harbour, and defeated a force
superior to his own. It vim no excuse, therefore, to refer to
these instances.
The vote was then agreed to.
A vete of 60,0001. for the half pay pension to the army
serving in India, was, after a few words from Mr. WILLiAms
and Sir Da Lacv EVANS, agreed to.
The House then resumed, and the Chairman reported
progress.
CONSOLIDATED FUND (8,000,0001.) LOAN BILL.
This Bill was read a second time.
DRAINAGE BILL (AMENDMENTS).
_ _

Lord J. RUSSELL postponed the notice which stood for to-
morrow (this day), respecting the constitution of the Ecclesi-
astical Commission Bill, till to-reiorrow weak.
' Sir G. GREY brought in the Drainage Act Amendment
Bill, which was read a first time.
LIMITED ENLISTMENT BILL.

Mr. FOX MA ULE moved the first reading of a Bill for li-
miting the period of enlistment in the army. He did not pro-
pose to enter into details; he would simply state that the period
in the infantry would be limited to ten years, and in the ca-
valry to twelve years.
Mr. HENLEY hoped that a week, instead of twenty-four
hours, would be given to the person enlisting to consider.
The House then adjourned at Twelve o'clock.