The Sun.
London, England, 1841-04-30 00:00:00

EVENING EDITION.

time, they thought that they were bound within the
limits of what they considered admissable in prin-
ciple and in justice to the rights and interests of the
Lief, people, on whose behalf they were legislating,
to pay regard to the scruples of some to whom they felt
a deference, and therefore it was they had raised the
amount from 51. to 81., hoping thereby to remove the ob-
jccdons of those who, whilst they agreed in the necessity of
fixing the rating with refere ice to the Poor-law valuation,
apprehended too great an extension of the electoral body.
Therefoie, the proposition placed in the hands of the
Chairman was that of an 81. annual rating. Now he found
that in 14 anions in which they had been stile to ascertain
the matter, that of persons valued at the amount of
from 81. to under 91., the lowest class of persons admitted
by the Bill, the average number of acres in this holding
was 199. In the union of Lurgan the average num-
ber was 7, in Longford 8, in Cashel 12, in Naas 13,
in Sligo 19, its Cotehill 11, in Gorey 17, in Kilcale 14,
and so on; therefore he (Lord i\lorpetb) thought those
electors were net of the sordid description that was some
times described, He admitted that even the franchise
of an annual rating of 81. might disfranchise a num-
ba of existing 10/. electors • but on the other hand
this would be counterbalanced by the additions to the
registry, and by the facility given to the whole system
of registration. And this was his main motive
for asking the HJUSC to consent to the principle, not of
franchising or disfranchising a given number, but of cer-
tainly affording to the electors the means of easily
tgoe tri.t,ihnigch tahnedy
wsearfeel)entkiteleePdi—ng(—C(heCeirles;—")a—ndt,hoenptrhievioletghr privileges
hand, of avoiding all that chicanery, cunning, deceit, and
fraud which ou the other side of the House was alwa.ys
alleged to attach to the present system of re-
gisti ation, and which, in a greater or less degree,
must attach to every system in which they did form at
standard of value, be!' left it to be decided by the adverse
testimony of conflicting p'2. rties.—( Cheer_.) The point,
therefore, to which he was
endeavouring to call the
attention of the House was the: the circumstances
.
connected wiih the state of the franchise, and the state of
the registration now established in Irelare', did most
powerfully recommend the adoption of some settL'd,
iml
partial, and extrinsic standard of value, and that no staod-
ard could be more proper or suited to the purpose
than the valuation under the Poor-law, and that this could
be sk ttled in a mode so effectual as to retain the
same class that enjoyed the constitueocy at
presents
and to keep up an adequate number as the mode
proposed in the present clause.—( Hear, hear.) To less
the franchise in the state it now was, that was the object of
the precious statesmanship which, at the same time, did not
scruple to decry this mode of dealing with the Irish f, an_
detrimental to the Lest interests of the country-
He certainly heard with disappointment and regret, in we
course of the discussions which had arisen upon that Bill,
that the Right Hon. Member fur Tamworth had thrown
himself without reserve into the impetuous course chalked
out for him by his Noble associate (Lord Stanley)..
—(Lout cheers and laughter from the Tories.) IL
was most certainly only in one respect that he could
venture to put himself on any footing of equality with the
Right Hon. Baronet, and that was in his knowledge ci
the country whose interests were under discussion,with which
their immediate official connection had lasted exactly the
same period of time, and he hoped it was without presumptiois
—it was at all events without any wish to see his forebod-
ings realised, that he trusted that whatever might be the
tempurary triumph that might await the cause in which he
had now embarked, no very long period of time would
elapse before he would regret that he gave his consent
to take such a course; and if be (Lord Morpeth) looked
forward with any feelings of satisfaction at all, it was to the
day—and such things had been before—not to the disho-
nour of the Right lion. Baronet, but greatly to his credit,
when he (Sir R. Peel) would come forward, and propose
to the House the adoption of some such proceeding
and the sanction cf some such principle as that which now
encountered his condemnation.—(Loud cheering.)
Lord ST ANLE Y—Althougo he recently had given
notice that it was his intention to take the sense of
the House upon that clause which contained the
essential principle of the Bil, and although he had since
taken no part in the discussions on the subject, yet he
would have contented himself by being altogether silent had
it not been for the noble speech just delivered by the Noble
Lord, and for the manner in which he had misrepresented
the course taken by those on his side of the House, and
the principles they had asserted with refsrence to the
Bill before the House, and notwithstanding the sneers
of the Noble Lord—(Loud cries of " Oh, oh," and
cheers) note ith standing the sneers ( Loud cries
of " Oh, oh !")—of the Noble Lord upon what he
was pleased to term the precious statesmanship which
would leave altogether untouched the evils of the Irish
franchise, he would venture to tell the Noble Lord that
he, in common with the great majority of the people of
England, most certainly in common with the vast
majority of those on his side of the House,
but much more in common with many on the
Noble Lord's side of the House, who either
from personal attachment to the Government, or from po-
litical attachments, supported him in his presert course;
nay, mere, in the opinion of a vast majority of both sides
of the House, and an incalculable majority out of doors,
the:conduct of the Government, acting under the influence
of the Noble Lord, was considered as being characterised
by a reckless want of statesmanship—( Immense cheering)
—which did disentitle them to the confidence of the House,
and which had shaken one of the very few and last re-
maining holds which they had upon the tolerance of the
country.—( Renewed cheers.) The Noble Lord had mis-
represented both the principle which the House had affirm-
ed and the objections taken on his (Lord Stanley's) side of
the House to the Bill of the Noble Lord. The Noble
Lord stated that the House by the second reading of the
Bill affirmed the principle of defining the franchise ac-
cording to the test cf the Poor-law valuation.
The House, in affirming the principle of the Bill,
affirmed that they would permit the Government to submit
to them and discuss in detail a nu asure which it was sup-
posed that they had, es was the duty of the Government
before submitting, maturely considered in its details, col-
lecied the facts, and were prepared to stand by the pro-
visions they had recommended.—(Loud cheers.) On
his ( Lord Stanley's) side of the House they took no ob-
jection to the Government finding a better and more satis-
factory basis for the franchise than the oaths of the parties
interested on either .side. On the contrary, in every discussion
that had taken place they had declared that it was more
the duty of the Hon. Member for Mallow than it was of
the lien. Member for Monaghan, whose consistency had
been so unfairly impugned by the Noble Lord last night.
—(Loud cheers.) It seemed to them most desirable that a
real stringent and efficient test should be applied to the
the oath of the party himself, value of property
other than oath of the party himself, or evidence upon oath ;
and, moreover they affirmed that the best and most
efficient test for the amount of the value was founded on
the principle of rating, which imposed a tax at the same
time that it affirmed a franchise-4 Hear, hear.) But the
Noble Lord had found ;t convenient to omit that which
was the principle of the Bill from the details.—( Cheers. )
Tney were willing to take valuation for the purpose of
rating as the test of value in the property, but they
were not willing to take the value of the property,
apart from the charges and incumbrances on it, as
the amount of the qualification. (Loud cheers. )
and that was the principle of the Noble Lard's Bill—
that value to a certain amount, tested by r ting,
should be the standard, and they were disposed to
agree with him in that principle. But, in addi-
tion, that it should be a test not of the value
of the property, but of the qualification of voting.
They contended that although it was the best test of the
franchise yet it must be estimated over and above the
amount of the charges and incumbrances thereon.
The Noble Lord assumed that that was the point of dif-
( erence between them. That was the point of difference
between them upon principle. That was the point which
was broadly and plainly stated to the House on Mon-
day night; that was the point on which the House of
Commons decided in favour of a beneficial interest against
the no beneficial interest contended for by the Noble Lord ;
and that was the point for which they again stood up in
opposition to her Majesty's Government. He stated,
moreover, and he would repeat it frankly, that in the
Poor-law valuation he could place no confidence. The very
Evidence the Noble Lord had produced coming forward in
succession as it did paper by paper, week after week, and
month after month, but before the House subsequent to
the Bill—( Opposition cheers) —that evidence had gone on
no fixe4, or stable, or uniform principle. In one thing
only had it been uniform—in disregarding the previ-
sions of the Act, of Parliament.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
But how far the Act had been disregarded
how how much the valuators were below the rat?__ts
was 5 per cent., or 30, 40, or 50 per cent. beneath the
real value, could not be learned. That was the ac-
count which their own Commissioners had given
them of their own evidence ; and yet it was
on that evidence that the Noble Lord asked the House
to form, not a prima facie case, but a conclusive
proof of the real and actual value of the premises, while
the Commissioners told them that it formed no conclusive
or proximate evidence, but that it varied in the proportions
of its deficiency and errors in every union and in every dif-
feient part of Ireland. He would say again that
ie its present state he should decline, on the evidence they
had, now to assume it as the basis, even as the first ele-
ment to be laid down, viz., of the value of the property,
exclusive of the amount of the burthen charged on that
property. He did not mean to sae that rating
might not be so correct, that it might not be made
so perfect, and ultimately approximate so nearly to the
real value, and become so uniform, tbat they would be
fairly entitled and enabled to assume it, not as
a test of the value of the property on
which the party claimed his vote. But in
the present state of things he could not take
it as any test, either of the franchise or the value.
One word as to the manner in which the Government had
dealt with the question. They ought to overlook the
mode in which this evidence had been furnished—
the sources from which it came and the means by which
it had been received, It had been usual, and it was a
right and a wise practice, that when Government fur.
nisned information on which Parliament was to act,
that information should be furnished in one of
two ways, either by the command of the Crown, or in con-
sequence of an address, or a motion from one or the other
Houses of Parliament, and that it should come before them
with some fixed indication of its character, and of
the manner in which it had beer, obtained.
In what manner had that information been received ?
Day after day papers were returned from the Qoeen's
stationer, and that was all the House knew of the evidence.
They were told that certain verbal instructions had Lean
given by her Majesty's Attorney-General to his personal
friends to go into the country and gather information,
upon which statements were made in the House without
any palpable authority, or any detailed account of
the data upon which they were founded. The Noble
Lord (Morpeth) had not made the slightest approxi-
mation to a statement of the effects of the clause
before the Committee. He had told them that, in some
places, it would strike off 10, in others 20, atici in others
30. But he had not yet attempted to tell them, even by
approximation, the number of tenements which would qualify
by the proposed rate.—( Hear, hear.) He had chosen
forty.nine unions, which must be Wien e 5 II fair !ample of