The Sun.
London, England, 1847-12-08 00:00:00

THE BRAZILS.

Mr. WILSON, seeing the Noble Lord the Secre-
tary for the Colonies in his place, wished to put a
question to him of which he had given notice. He
was informed by the last arrivals from Rio de Ja-
neiro, it had been ascertained that the Brazilian
Government had recently issued a decree by
which they imposed a duty of one-third extra upon
all ships and their cargoes, which might enter the
Brazilian empire after the Ist of July next, from
those countries which did not place Brazilian ships
entering the ports of those countries upon a footing
of the most favoured nations. He understood this
decree wonld apply to all ships sailing from this
country.
Lord PALMERSTON said he had received a
Brazilian newspaper within the last few days, con-
taining a decree that • had been issued by the
Brazilian Government, and which was to the effect
stated by the Hon. Member. The decree would
apply to all nations that did not, on and after
the Ist of July next, extend to Brazilian vessels all
the privileges they had hitherto enjoyed, unless they
should bind themselves by a convention to continue
the advantages now denied to Brazilian ships for a
specific period.
FREIGHTS.
Mr. BROTIIERTON moved for a return of the
freights paid by the Government on donations of food
from America, for the relief of the poor of Ireland and
Scotland, in the course of the present year; distin-
guishing-1, the ports of shipment ; 2, the ports of
delivery ; 3, the names of the ships ; 4, the individual
committee to whom each parcel of food was consigned;
5, an account of the freight on each parcel.—(The
return to comprehend the deliveries at both British
and Irish ports.)
MINISTERS' MONEY.

Mr. E. B. ItOCHE presented a petition from two
parishes in Cork praying for the abolition of minis-
ters' money.
IRELAND.—REPEAL OF THE UNION.

Sir GEORGE GREY rose to make an applica-
tion to the Hon. Member for Nottingham (Mr.
' Feargus O'Connor), with respect to the follow-
ing motion, which stood first on the paper of
this evening :—" For a Select Committee, to in-
quire and report on the means by which the dissolu-
tion of the Parliament of Ireland was effected ; on the
effects of that measure upon Ireland and upon the
labourers in husbandry and operatives in manufac-
tures in England ; and on the probable consequences
of continuing the Legislative Union between both
countries." The Government and the Lord-Lieute-
nant agreed in opinion that as early a decision as
was consistent with the importance of the sub-
ject, and with fair discussion, should be come
to with respect to the Bill which the Government
had proposed with the view of repressing crime in
Ireland ; and as the progress of that measure might
be retarded by the motion of the Hon. Gentlemen,
he wished to point out to him the expediency of
withdrawing his motion in order that the debate
might proceed at once.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon.
Gentlemen would have ample opportunities of bring-
ing it forward in a later, though early, period of the
present session. It was most important, with a view
to the protection of life and property, that no delay
should take place in pa:sing the measure into a law.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR said the Right Hon. Baronet
had placed him in a most unfair and disagreeable
position by the request which he had made. He knew
the popularity of the Government measure and
the unpopularity of his proposition, and wished
therefore, to get it postponed. Now he (Mr. F.
O'Connor) considered that his motion should precede
the passing of the Bill, and consequently, in his opi-
nion, he should not lay himself open, by persisting in
his motion as it stood, to a charge of bringing it
forward for the mere purpose of originating a fac-
tious opposition to the Bill. He repelled the charge,
and said he could not comply with the request of
the Right Honourable Baronet. [The Honour-
able Gentleman having resumed his seat for
a moment, immediately rose again, on being
called upon by the Speaker, and proceeded, after apo
logising for the hoarseness of his voice from a severe
cold, to bring forward his motion.] He said he
could not shrink from bringing forward his pro-
position, notwithstanding the ungracious position in
which he was placed. He wished to state to the
1 House that he had adopted the very words of the
motion brought forward by Mr. O'Connell in 1834,
and which he had himself supported in the preceding
year. He thought when they were considering the
question of coercion, that they should be informed of
the condition of Ireland antecedent to the Union,
and during the last 47 years. He should, however,
carry on the discussion in a different strain to that
in which it was carried on in 1834 ; he
should not dwell on the differences between the Saxon i

f and the Celt, because he for one had no wish to cast dis-
-1 respect upon the " Saxon gentlemen ;" he recol- I
lected further that 3,500,000 of the people of Eng-
land had petitioned in favour of the repeal
of the Union. He put it on higher grounds, and
would ask, if Ireland had beceme part of the English
empire by conqm-ht, what statute o •re.
was to prevent her from re-conquE dna. herself ?
I\ as it not remarkable that Ireland, though
stated to be bound by ties with England, should have
retrograded as England and the other nations of the
world progressed ? should trace the title of
the Crown of Ireland from its first institution
until the time it merged into the English
Crown, from the time of Edgar, in 964, a bee the
charter was signed at Gloucester, until 1542, during
the reign of Henry VIII., showing that during
that time both nations were Catholic, and that
tha differences between the two countries had
arisen chiefly out of religious differences. He
should then go on to the commencement of the
French Revolution, thence to 1800, the period of the
Union, and then down to the present time. Every
single revolution in Ireland was brought about by Eng-
lish Protestants against the Irish people ; there never
was what could be termed a Catholic revolution.
If he was enabled to prove these things from history,
in such a manner as to defy contradiction, he should
then have made out a strong case for relieving the
Catholic people of Ireland from the odium cast upon
them, that they had been always the disaffected
parties. With respect to the character of Edgar,
which was the first ground of title set up by the
English to Ireland they were told by Leland, who
was to be considered as by no means an unfavour-
able historian for the English people, that "that
charter was susceptible of considerable doubts."
The next title set up arose in the period when
Strongbow— went over to Ireland, and succeeded
in conquering a great part of the province of Lein-
ster. Henry King of England was induced by the
successes of Strongbow to take the title of King
of Ireland. The title which King Henry took
with him was a bull of Pc pe Adrian the Fourth,
an Englishman, who granted him the govern-
ment on condition that he should spread the Catholic
faith, and that he should make the Catholic people
attend more to the rites and duties of the Church ;
he then bestowed the throne upon him, on conditi( n
that he was to receive in return Peter-pence, or the
payment of a penny from each house. In the year
1172, all the Barons and Nobles tendered their
submission to Henry. Shortlafter he was obliged
to leave his Irish dominions. When King John was
twelve years of age he was sent over to Waterford to
receive the submission of all the barons ard nobles
within his dominions. So imperious was the conduct
of this young king, that the day after he left
the nobles who had made their submission imme
diately took up arms against him. During the
seventh, eighth, and ninth centuries Ireland
was prolific in commissioning missionaries to pro-
pagate the Catholic faith over the whole of
Europe. Until the ruthless days of Cromwell
and the days of the rebel King William, whom
they sent over to Ireland, not a single conquest
hnd been made, and it could be proved that even every
foot of ground which the English gained in the wars
they were obliged to surrender as soon as they were com-
pelled to withdraw their forces. The next title set up
was in the time of Richard 11., in the year 1695,
who went over to Ireland with 4,000 men at arms
and 30,000 footmen, and received the submission of
all the nobles and barons of the country. In 1699
Richard again invaded Ireland, and they were told
that he remained revelling in Dublin for many months,
till at length news reached that the Duke of Lan-
caster had landed in England, and he was compelled
at once to return to his native country, without ac
complishing anything in Ireland. The next claim
to the sovereignty of Ireland was made in the reign
of Henry VIII., who went over to that country with a
large force, but like his predecessors achieved nothing.
Therefore, none of the revolutions that had
taken place could be put down to the religion
of one country or the other, and from that
period up to the Union Ireland had been
the subject of aggression from England. Before
he sat down he would show that Ireland had never
had an effective Parliament to govern her, and such
being the case he would ask whether it would not
have been better, instead of abrogating the Par-
liament altogether, as was done at the time
of the Union, something had been done to
render it more effective ? The Honourable and
Learned Member then went on 'to endeavour
to show, that from the earliest time down to the
present ;_every attempt had been made by the
English Government to impoverish the people
of Ireland, and corrupt her Parliament, and observed
that the Irish people, finding that they were deceived
by their leaders—finding that they were being made
the dupes of their public men—determined to esta-
blish the Irish Society, of whose existence the
Government was aware from its very birth, and whose
members they knew, but still they did not cause
them to be arrested. They preferred rather to fer-
ment the rebellion, in order that they might be
revenged upon those who had refused to assist them
at the time of the revolt of the British American
colonies. At this time the Irish Catholic people began
to look for aid to the French Catholic people, and it
was natural that they should do so ; but the French
revolution intervened, and their hopes of succour in that
quarter were frustrated. Again, the Government
wanted the assistance of the Irish people,and in order to
gain that assistance they had recourse to the cry of
Parliamentary Reform. A hollow cry it was. It
was the cry of Earl Grey, it was the cry of Charles
James Fox, but only to assist them into place, and
when they safely got there away went Parliamentary
Reform, then the cry was understood to mean merely
that a Government commissioner could pot be allowed
to have a seat in that House.—(Hear, and laughter.):
The people of Ireland, therefore, instead of getting a
fair representation in Parliament, had the celebrated
Convention Act given to them, and from that period
up the union history could not point to anything
equal in atrocity to that. Now what was the
history of the rebellion of 1798 ?—who could relate
it ? Ireland had given this country orators,
financiers, statesmen, warriors, dramatists, and poets,
but England had taken care that she should not pro-
duce historians. Who had fought the battles of this
country ? Irish generals and Irish soldiers ; and
yet, so far back as the memory of man could go, this
country had refused Ireland her just and legitimate
rights. Eventually the Irish Parliament was annihi-
lated; and what, let him ask, was the consequence of the
annihilation ? From 1780 up to 1800 the exports and
imports had increased to an enormous extent, and tie
country was in a comparatively flourishing condition.
In 1780 Ireland did not owe a fraction, but in 1800
she was in debt to this country 14,000,0001. He
would not dwell upon the means by which the
Union was brought about, although he had
ample authorities to enable him to do so.
Suffice it to say, that it was cosummated by the
vilest corruption; that the terms were dictated by
England while Ireland was in a defenceless state,
with her energies shackled by debt, famine,
and disease; and from that time to the present
the terms' 'of the union had been continually
violated by the British Parliament. The in-
crease of the national debt from 1801 until 1810
was caused by England, in order to keep. France
away, by our fleets, from Ireland, for it was
supposed that that country wished to obtain posses-
' sion of it. Ard how had they accomplished the utter
degradation of Ireland ? They gave every man a
peerage or 16,0001. who obtained the election of
persons in Ireland favourable to the views of England,
and those who had peerages and accomplished the
work received the 15,000/. Lord Castlereagh gave
them but 100 Members, though the population was
5,000,000 at the time, whilst England with but
9,000,000 obtained 503. Was this, he asked, a fair re-
presentation of the country ? The result had been that
a hostile aristocracy had been created, who, hav-
ing no sympathy with the country, cared
not to see her prosper. The oppression of the
Catholics had also added to the misery of the
country. They gave absentee landlords the power
of evicting their tenants when their arrears were
more than two shillings. After creating such an
aristocracy as he had described—after twenty-three
years of coercion—after resisting emancipation for
forty years, were they astonished that Ireland pre-
sented the deplorable spectacle she did ? It was im-
possible now to shackle the Irish mind. An Act
was passed which exempted grass land from the
payment of tithes, so that the Protestant land-
lord—the great opponent of the Catholic
Church, and he might say of their own—
who had 4,000 acres of grass land, paid no
tithes, whilst the Catholic widow, who had gathered
manure from the road to grow a few pota-
toes on her acre of land, paid them.
(Hear, hear.) These, he contended. were damnatory
facts against the legislation which had been
adopted towards Ireland by England both before
and since the union. He was tried in Ireland,
in 1832, for resisting the payment of
tithes.—(Laughter.) He denied, however, that he
was " an artful, designing demagogue." If he were,
he had nothing to gain by it. It was his boast, and
he was proud to proclaim it, that he had
never received a farthing or eaten a meal for the
services which he had rendered to his country. He
had conducted more contested elections than many
men, but he never expected or toak any pay,
though as a barrister he was entitled to
emigration,
and if there was ever a disgrace to any set of men, it
igge ratfieoens
He would now come to the question of fees.
bi voiunrg in an
dt their
r
was to seduce people, t
iab, in
able to obtain
own country to la
searchof alal
means of existence. The curse of this co untryhad been
that in the exact proportion in which liberty increased
o
so had corruption increased,
off becauseteoisyemagogues
the
dGovernment
knew they were able to buy
of the country. He would now deal with the free
trade question As it would affect the question of

repeal. H had the greatest respect for the
leafier of that party (Mr. Cobden). He
(Mr. O'Connor) was opposed to hirri until
he once met him, when he saw so much
beneficence in his face, that he was determined from
that time to oppose him no more. Labour was the
source of wealth, and ought to be protected, and it
Was all moonshine to talk about Exchequer bills,
Bank Lharter Acts, the financial condition of the
country, or any measure to make money. cheap,
while-the toundatien of all was neglected.—(Hear.)
He would now come to the question of a, separate
Parliament for the two countries. When the Irish
Members came to that House now, it must he ad-
mitted by all that they had no power. Then
with respect to the lands in Ireland, he asserted
that from that year 1793 to the present moment
they had been cultiveted according to the science
of politics, and not the science of agriculture.
In that House the Members were 'operated
upon by the voices of their constituents. outside,
but such was not the case in Ireland. If Ireland were
properly represented in that House there would be
no necessity for the Government coming
down for a Coercion Bill one year and
a loan of money another. Another subject
of great complaint in Ireland was, and most justly
so, that the whole staff in Ireland down to the present
time had been almost without exception Protestants.
There was one circumstance which had widened the
breach between Englishmen and Irishmen, and that was
the exchange of militias. The people of Ireland, mane'
of them at least, had been rifled of their lands and
estates, and it was not to be wondered at that the
descendants of those unfortunate people should still
cling to a hope that the property which they
had been wrongfully deprived of ebould be re-
stored to them. Had Napoleon instead of Wel-
lington won - at Waterloo, many of England's
estates might have been confiscated, and he asked
the House whether, had such been the case, the peo-
ple of this country would have remained satisfied till
they had recovered what they had lost ?
it was just in this way that the people of Ire-
land had been deprived of their rights and lands,
and he called upon the House to look at the
present state of the continent of Europe, at the pre-
sent state of America, and then to tell him whether
it was safe to disregard the cries of Ireland for s
redress of grievances ? NVell, then, let him have
this Committee, let them see at once whether
Irish agriculture could not be rest...red to
a state of prosperity, so as to be en'
abled to supply England with food without
her having recourse to foreign granaries. He bade
been called an infidel—he had been denounce"
as a revolutionist ; but in his own conscience
he felt that no man was doing more te,
sow the seeds of peace and good-will among"
all classes of society than himself. His every bout
was directee to that subject, and in order that he
might not be misrepresented in future he would tell
the House and the country, that he was for
the altar, the throne and the cottage, but he wished
the altar to be the footstool of God-and-not the couch
of Mammon ; the throne bised upon the affections
of the people, and not on the lusts of the aristocracy'
and he wished the cottage to be the castle of the
treeman, and not the den of the slave. The
Gentleman concluded by moving for a Select Cool'
tnittee in the terms already stated.
Mr. FAGAN seconded the motion. .
Sir. G. GREY was sorry that the Hon. Gentlemon
(Mr. O'Connor) had felt he had a right to conePlein
of the appeal which he (Sir G. Grey) had made to
him in the beginning of the evening to postpone hill
motion, for the appeal which he had made had refer-
ence simply to the public interest, and to the advance-
ment of business which was felt to. be of public ine
portance. He did not know what the feelings might
be of the Hon. Gentlemen who came from the sister
country, to whom the Hon. Member for .Nottingham
appealed, to show their gratitude for the opportunity
which he had given them of redeeming their pledge;
but he could not help thinking that the Hon. Member
himself must now be convinced that he would have
exercised a wise discretion if le had abstained from
pressing this motion: —(Hear.) It appeared• to him
that the conclusion of the Hon. Member's speech WS
the most discreet part of it, for if he had not distinctly
read the terms of the motion with which he was about
to terminate his address to the House, there were
very few Members in it, he would venture to saYl
who could have conjectured what the motion" of the
Hon. Member would be.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member
began with the reign of Edgar, and went throng!
the history of Ireland from that period with grew'
rapidity. The Hon. Gentleman had certainly inl"
proved the leisure which:he had enjoyed since he le el
made his appearance in that House, and had acquire
a large stock of antiquarian lore and historical infor-
mation, with which the House had been favoured. if
he possessed them before, the Hon. Gentleman, had
not previously displayed to Parliament his stores of
knowledge. He was reminded, however, that he WO
mistaken in this respect. He believed the House was
faVoured by the. Hon. Gentleman with information':
a similar kind on a former occasion, -and that the
tobiographical notice with an ample portion of which
the House had been indulged that evening had, on
the occasion in question, been commenced from an
earlier period, demonstrating the Honourable Mem'
bees descent from the ancient Kings of Ireland.—(4
laugh.) But he really asked the Hon. Gentleman whether
he intended that the Committee for which he had
moved should take up that wide and discursive range
' of subjects which the Hon. Member's own speech had
occupied ? At what period of the history of Ireland
were their inquiries to commence ? The Hon. Meg;
ber hed touched, with a very- light and rapid hand'
upon the various evils which had afflicted Irelanot
but he had utterly failed in demonstrating that I!
repeal of the union would cure those evils, or thae
' those evils which had fallen upon Ireland antecedent!
to the union could be fairly ascribed- to it. Wit*,
he recollected the manner in which this question 11.61..
been discussed on a former occasion, and the able
writings which had issued from the press of lateyeoas_
he was not prepared to say that the question WAS g
which Parliament should entertain. If the lionouer:
able Gentleman thought that the subject of the
erss.
peal of the union aid of such great and pro..
in al
importance, why id he 'not honestly
manfully take the opinion of the House onthirl
question, and why not move that the House re,o
itself into a Committee of the whole House to d
iscuss
it ?—(Hear, hear.) He really thought that this tr:
a much fairer mode of dealing with the subject 1';
moving for a Select Committee to make In4uToo,
which would occupy, not merely the present session'
but all the sessions during which the present lanro"r)
ment could last. ("No, no," from Mr. o'l3°ll
If the Committee- did not go back to a more reraeo°o
period, they must at least go back to circunletesled
which occurred nearly half a century ago. He not
the Hon. Gentleman whether these events werew,e;
well known ; whether they were not matter dills..
and whether any necessary information on the sure',
was wanted ? The Hon. Gentleman seemed to think
that patronage had entered largely into the histonee:
the union. He seemed to think that since the u rine
also, the patronage a the Government had heenweee
properly bestowed, because some Irishmen, Yell their
subjects of the United Kingdom, received as 111°
fair share of public employments. Did the,.
inept
Member believe that if the Irish Perl.r be
were established to-morrow there would
by
an absence of all patronage exercised s,
the Government ; or that Ideruk3rs of
liament would be so patriotic as to refuse Pa
told
tten
age when offered to them; or that constituents
wwse
ere
instantly cease to prefer those requests whiche re
o
commonly made by constituents to Members I
of
liament, and even occasionally by the constituent
Irish Members ?—(Laughter.) He would ask _ re.
lion. Member what evil would,,in his opinion, "'scree)
medied by a repeal of the union ? He (Sir G. 110$
did not now deal with the question whether enY, er
had been really occasioned by the Act of trniceteoe.
not ; he was only dealing with the speech of the `ebe
Gentleman. The Hon. Gentleman had
Irish labourers interfered with the rate of wage!, to
ceived by the English labourer ; but did he Weil:, •
accompany his motion for a repeal of the unionlileeets
measure prohibiting, the importation of Irish labo
into England, or did he mean to say that an lois
Parliament would pass laws which would 'Preelere
their emigration from their own country?. Leff
said the
re.
was, no doubt, some pressure upon the enni.:.id,
of this country from competition with
~eern,
labourers ; but those labourers benfited en;inoe
selves by coming here, and were gle
_e he
valuable class of men—(Hear, hear)—and be tir"we
that, instead of aiming at complete severateeeteiv
should endeavour, by fair legislation, and e"ind
pensation of equal justice, to consolidate atnhete
w togetherhieh th.the i
Hon.
e countries.mbee
had
He
eo
he spine
religious differences. He was sure that t
ea__ to
successive Governments had been of late y
prteegdretitnedreganeof
avoid the sectarian bigotry which marked ell.aselirno.
nistrations of former times.—(Cheers.) n
between Gentleman
Protestanthad endeavoured
and
Catholic to m
Grey) hoped that these differences betwer b
d to
ness. He thought,that the Committee could.eiesive
testant and Catholic were losing much of theirleait_ter.
no beneficial result, and might induce the eh.
notion ehat the House was ierepared to enteTt_tn eye
kebuthtishea 3jlSeisLtria:
question of the propriety of repealing the union. e He
really hoped, therefore, that this motion in_lfinflion.
disposed of without that long debate which the eel
Gentleman seemed to anticipate. that he will
Mr. O'CONNOR, in explanation, said, h
t 0 .I,ITZ
orifotnh.e union,Gentleman
quite ready to propose a distinct motion for
Mr. H. GRATTAN said that the lion. Di
rseesesoendd h_oulltsitigth :Iz:bee r
wouldexP
for Nottingham had thought proper to sal teheett4l3o:
(air. Grattan) knew nothing of history. eneteee,` her
he might be allowed to say that the lion. -her
himself know nothing of it. When-the lion: