The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-05 00:00:00

TEXAS.

Mr. O'CONNELL gave notice that he -shard
that day fortnight move a humble Address to her Ma-
jesty, praying that she would be pleased to direct a copy
of any arrangement between Texas and this country to
be laid before the House ; and also that it was his in-
tention on the same day to call the attention of the
House to the state of that country.

Mr. KELLY gave notice that he should that day
fortnight call the attention of the House to the petition
of Thomas Weeks.

Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET moved for eer-
ain returns relative to railways, Well were agreed to.

EV EN ING EDITION.

liinouhaies.
odpi:ben
IDOLATRY IN INDIA.
Sir R. INGLIS rose to put some questions to tie
Right Hon. President of the Board of Control, relative
to the connexion which existed between the East India
Company and the idolatrous practices in India. The
House was aware that, when he had asked the gees:
tion last year, the Right Honourable
had referred him to certain extracts from 0,31
despatch of Lord Auckland, partly public
thee
party private, in which it was stet, d that
were
system worked well, and that the objects in view I
advancing slowly and steadily. Now, although tu
Right Hon. Gentleman said he would lay all the del
ments connected with the subject on the table, lie had
Cries . t
only given extracts from that despatch.--(
Question.") He wished to know whether the Rig%
Hon. Gentleman would lay the whole of that deelste,
Gentleinso
on the table, he having only made extracts from It;
Next, whether upon any authority, whether public ett
private, the Right Hon. Gentleman could state led
, his own responsibility that the system had Or. es?
:well in British India or any of its dependeaeleAs,
The next question which he wished to propose was,
whether the Right Hon. Baronet felt himself at ail 'r
to state to the House if any of- the grievances tie der
• which British soldiers in India laboured, had bold rho
moved. If he could not state that, as he fearr,.,at,
, could not state anything satisfactorily on the saitt'ite
whether he had any objection to state that hewde iti
care that those grievances of her Majesty's subjectosoid
India, to which he (Sir R. H. Inglis) referred, w •te
cease on the Ist of January, or at any other defloi
period. 0°
Sir J. C. HOB HOUSE said that, with resPecir 00
the quotations which he made in July last, be ha had
objection to place them before the House. Ile .oil
said that those documents were partly of a private, eoh
partly of a public, nature. One of the letters vital),
he (Sir J. C. Hobhouse) had received on the sub,
1 ject, was a private letter from Lord Aucklalle
Before replying to the questions of his Hon. Friend' „.
• woeld beg to state that he believed that those Pr•as
lor which he had moved at the close of lest
ampleSessie
would furnish his Hon. Friend with much more t
information than he at presentpossessed on thislctse i
ti,
the
delicatecl
os
close
question.s
eTs Ismieosne
;p atpheer sowrpedreer not pri° t e d u e er
e- 1
rithe.ewy'edhaddurinnogt
beenth the presentnet bee!' 'l,
presented Session
t o t 1;1 It vs'
~
his intention that night to move new that Order,
and in addition to move for the to
re'l • er
other
preeuction
• factor,'
papers which he thought would prove satis die
tof his Honourable Friend. With respect to b
~
pihettieors
urther question of his Honourable Friend'
he thought that anything had been done reaps,i
the settlement of this unfortunate question, or •sfac.
thought he was entitled to call it, he had the Oa
A , tr
tioil of stating that he thought much had been uec'e-ee ja
eabnaddconsequeataf,
wards the settlement of it. What had been "...ciao,
the Presidency of Bengal had been,
with one - •
he looked to what had been dove with regaruto be
pilgrim tax, and with regard to the Ju aeraaut TA' ids°
glie shoal- ot
thought that much had been done.
lay before the House despatches from the Geve;rfthe
of Bombay to the Government of India, stat 7 the
steps which they had adopted for carryle,_e' 0013
orders of Lord Auckland, which he the:Vl; ir.)
prove satisfactory to his H Friend'......\ e
Honourable
ires'
There was one exception, which was, the 1, . na be
of Madras, k rie the
had
He would confess to his Hon'
d been disappointed by what had taken place iced
idres,
Presidency at Madras. When he had last o' be
the House on this subject, he had stated that *die'
received despatches from the Governor-G - eneral oi
ta be
stating that he was in hopes that measures WO5 „bjo
adopted for carrying into effect his orders on this 5101,3c1
in the Presidencies of Bombay and Madras. M P fleet
int° e r-
before stated, those orders had been
carried gatem
in the
Presidency
of Bombay. But big state'
able Friend would find in the des etches a de by
beep fin i ,
ment that the propositions which hadP
193 cl.°
the Government of Madras to the Government '9 oat of
into effect the orders of the Gover° oat
for carrying
India were unsatistactoiy, and that the Goveraieto,
of India, he was happy to state to his Hon' For prr
had issued such orders as would have the effe6 ifs ger
venting the Government of Madras being anY „- fn tb°
orders
' 1;3,.
behind hand in ea • • carrying into effect .. h ?JP,.
Government of India'
and the desire of the Orals of his
ment. it was his duty at the same time, in defence "I, to
Noble Friend Lord El hinst • and his Co theta
state that he believed P ". de4 t 5
what had been on co
jestru t at
was owing to a misunderstanding of the
from the Board of Directors and the Governrneatiess
iestrocoto
home. But the Government had since given
so distinct that there could be no room nor es,,eld
for further mistake ; and the Governor of Madras s`rwsod
in future act in. conformit with the regulations Mese
for time guidance of the Yother Presidbenciese"—tYtba
hear.) He had now answered the gustier°, o„cles.
Hon.' Gentleman relating to the three Presiae%iat,
With respect to the other matter put t° e•
re'
namely, the attendance of the troops at , ft;; refer
llgeiooe ....vie. of the Hindoos, he beggen ~;:0, ,ia
%tvhhicHon. Gentleman to the despatch of '- t 00
.h it was most pointedly laid down tha,-,tena
troops were not in any way to be compelled to e• the
at any festival which was not consonant with that
principles of the Christian religion—(Hear).--aaindeo
no Mahommedan should be compelled to attend at "-ejso
religious ceremonies, and no Hindoo at Mahanleeiskej
him whether that regulation had . jet°
e
been carried oar
in India. Now he Colla. I I
only say that he was not letter,
that it had been violated. He had before bin' allieJe°
stating that the troops had attended at a , oder
festival, and had done honour to the cerenOnie-is Mee;
pretence of attending as an escort to the .-j.
fie had
A
Ile was not aware that this was time case. , . t lms-,
icertainly not made any inquiry, but no case. 4
men made to him, He could state, however, f the
such a case were brought under the note thing id
Court of Directors they would do every tP• se"
. v
their power to prevent its recurrence ;
beio
,e
more than that, ifthey had 10 their
reason ,
0• e
that their
orders not properly obeyed, then they would ts 600
50.0 nf
earliest opportunity of sending out such in hie, "
as would put a stop to practices so objectio eager the
course, a great distinction must be taken bei their
attendance of troops at public processions, eoke'
forming a guard of honour and going into the te• 'Oll
dal° t
He had • •
inquired whether there had been any a ohjee i
information lately from India upon °Lie b-cliece`a"
but had ascertained that there was not. Pe odeci-
sttece by
there was no case in which compulsorY
was resorted to, and although some disturbe fella
taken place at Madras between troop of native Ia e.
and cavalry, he had not been La
1 or
able to ascerta 1 fat i
He should, however, feel it duty rna-e
his
to
inquiries.

JUVENILE OFFENDERS. OOP
Sir E. WILMOT begged to ask the Bightatear
taonyestianbtleisnhtiaontriboonool tfohre
the Attorney-General, whether in the reforing 055
plated in the administration of justice, thfroins°
part of the flea -
o: foraiel-
in cases of petty larceny. He had himself been 'P
of two cases, one of a child for stealing a" ,et'coal'
another for stealinc, sixpence, in neither of whlic,.; hecli
any punishment be inflicted, the children PS'.
already two months in prison. nglY
sre a
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL vint11„11 :Let t"
support any proposition of the Right Hon. -°°,a-ri been
carry such an object into effect, but as er° '" meat
considerable division upon the subject, the
had given him no instructions to iprepa
reGfverti re
the trial of juveniGle°l4'. cleo,
east/
on the subject. r it WIS
Sir E. WILMOT wished to know whet'e".
intended to make the Quarter Session Courts Itlwerelf
ence effective, because in Birmingham
tr3n theY,„et /111 YE
met pro forma, and were unable to ~arescf;
business for want of funds. All the expense t"'
fell upon the;rounty, and he would be
Government would state whether it was iritB"-ether'
would
oalsuk,leidl thesee h
ATTORNEY-GENERAL
Te ocleueintt validsNseEt
ty duo riEod withnNogaEwsliatn)lc,‘el:
bs
uat
thi
de:tch:el Eq°lg,,:ee
gsbtuel :011
Lau er
waiting for the decision of the Judges in the hater'
Chamber on the subject of the Manchester c
PUNISHMENT OF DEATH' k
Mr. FITZROY KELLY begged to °9
feq
ther it was the intention theofolio a°v,"r•ut -°-
to propose any measure for the further abo:001J
capital punishment, and if so, whether it
)e as extensive as that which he 'had the h°°°-r
tro
Mr.duce last Session 9
FOX MAULE said that it was theroralr
tion of her Majesty's Government to bring ' f the
a measure on the subject of the aboliti9o °r pre'
punishment of death. He was not, low,!ree'
pared to say that it would be co•extensl,er
the measure which the Hon. and Learned Menkeinbeir
formerly introduced. The Hon. and Learned
ijainte':;
would soon have an opportunity of been:a-ling 4
n°6l jace°
with the measure, as lie hoped it would be tl.°
before the lapse of another month. "'l(l,°rl
Mr. F. KELLY then gave notice that he hid, ho
Tuesday next, bring forward the motion of w
had given notice for leave to bring in his Bill' AND)'
REGISTRATION OF VOTERS—OBI-I've 005 e
Lord MORPETH said that he confessedt.hiti oa
on that occasion with some anxiety, both
account of the intrinsic merit of the ld been
itself as well as the special interest which 11' in fact'
more recently attached to it, from its having, iitical
served as a pivot on which the strugglesriOviaE.,lfro:
parties of late had materially turned, all, wife/
its bringing him into something like
the Noble mover of another Registration
in
the opposite side of the house in the
w___l'Llot
which riv.ilry could alone subsist between the
cetice
was between the qualities of their re'P fie
measures—certainly not between the folio"proPo9ers. bin/
would thorefore beg that the House would itota•
en the occasion with indulgence and _ll pre'
Whenever the subject had been before them
vious occasions. as they had been corl:ereLZorth
minded by the Noble Lord the Member for North
Lancashire on a previous evening, it 'a alla
allowed upon all hands that great inwerfaction.

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31 Alio

'hoses attached to the present question of Registration
tra_eir eo elreland,i which both admitted and called for remedy.
tnliewhpicrehcise extent of those abuses, as to the
any fraud was practised, and as to its
ctioltaparative extent either in this country or in Scotland,
, tre *gilt be, and he believed there had been diffe-
.ence
tatty float
of opinion ; but still it had been admitted genei
it-1-Y„that great means and facilities for fraud existed
and Present system of registration in Ireland,
olahuad
t had scarcely been denied by any one w
himself to the subject, that occasional
iienh-
tt_lTees of fraud had taken place. The point whi
ch
system beeZygern 0 most frequently adverted to, was a
41),. , of certificates and the facilities afforded there-
-1,14 fraudulent personation of either dead or ab-
Ni' voters and the retention of persons on the
ttry who
tat - , eao, after they had once been placed on the
_ti.' were left there, without any opportunity for sub.se_-
'9 eat correction or revision, during the whole period
for Which the registry remained in force—that was,
tie theliadwer, present Irish reform law, for a period of 8 years.
vie..,,ulese certainly were practices for which no one
Po" stand uP, and which every one who
.hads
1,,, te_ it on the subject professed himself anxlou
Ithie,orreet___
(Hear.) In any measure, therefore,
they h her Majesty's Government would bring forward,
~. would endeavour to put an end to such palpable
"Kt obvio
Lop us abuses as those to which he referred. The
toTtal and oue.sided system of appeal which was confined
*ltsl- a•PPeal in favour. of the franchise, which
(lhietunited to the claimant, and denied to the
a toteehi:, had also formed a subject of generalff
*hii,". With respect to the appeal on matters of ac
sifted andtder the Irish Reform Act, were necessarily
full}'for
she har decided on before a tribunal duly constituted
%hely. PoT,ge, which under the Irish Reform Act—and under
sliictir,2. of Act atone--were substantiated by the pro-
Itistl-e7 of titles and other documents, and by viva voce
be
%IN's.", none of which things or persons it might
time n. lent or feasible to bring again together at another.th
se, ' 111 another place, or before another tribunal—with
the to these facts, he did not think it would be fair
such
ssi,,,te'anant to grant an appeal or a re-hearing on
it
Ivotildl of fact.--( Hear, hear.) But he did think
the fr ue .
/cry fair to give the appeal both ways—against
as ~eachise as well as in favour of it, and to the objectornall
the to the claimant, on all matters of law, o
and ll
tile le lorolving the construction of Acts of Parliament,
it was an
itportgal Merits of the case ; provided always, and
then tT't Proviso, and one on which he had always insisted
la.o,,idue had addressed himself to that part of the subject—
s)o aed that, in the first place, they placed the franchise.l
l'leers ilelr and distinctly ascertained basis—( Alinister.ia
114,47-not on a basis such as the present, which was
(11ene '_ aMbiguous, and of doubtful interpretation.—
orl,e:!beeidior:ehy should not, "II his
ao secsi ti icinn
ci
dearbo,entire franchise of the Irish. peop.
ktits an upper and professional triebutnoal where
teehili• . iaU to be adjudicated on by a strict, precise, and
Ile ha? Interpretation of a doubtful and ambiguo,u; law.
'tea ~ therefore, thus far indicated the lengths which_hiee
(LorPdreL,Pared to go with the Noble Lord. opp.ositteo.
,i 4 if ,I"Peth) was sure it was pleasing to him travell
'heti '''ord Sr 1 ~, ) company as far as he was able.
t
4rti7ie(the Ministers)ane Stanley's)
prepared to abolish. the use o
forQ, dates, and
of
make the register, which might have been
Nine' under due precautions, the test of the right
lieil,g 4t eked They were prepared to allow an ap-
uoth ens. wer
s,erii ways, to the objector as well as to the claimant,
"kael,arneot should have first consented to place the
IP -"lse On ,eet to , a clear and intelligible footing. With re-
'4t e• me new periodical revision, he (Lerd
.Morpeth)
Nae,,ote
by his
to take the same course for it as that
her '''d
1 his Noble Friend—that was, that it occur once
t y year
esui,,i , but whilst lie ( Lord Morpeth) allowed. the
11'434 t t°
take place after the interval of one year,
mhe
,144tei'j prePared t g" up a point for which he co -
"tPtise-astt, Yea!, though without suc.cess, which was to
liiei, , .0 Irish voter of that facility and advantage
rilt; the quell"' enjoyed of preferring his claim to registeror_
'114) 40-4rterlY Court of the Assistant Barrister—the.lit
Nieli ,-ourt
°C Quarter Sessions. That was a aci y
Ilith tt,°o Irish vote had ion enjoyed. It was a Court
(41,1 ew",,ich he was familiar andg to which all the habits
e
(Lord ms of his life natural( accustomed him.
him
`,4iie rPetia) would not be for taking
+or ti s'rantages and accommodations whichfrohme bad
I,s,l4ead°s tinne past possessed. When the voter was osnecde
`satie, ,11 the register, he ( Lord Nlorpeth)
annuallyo
called should be subject to have his title to vote .
he menu question ; that was the periodical. revision which
tttihy 4,,°°ed, and which should constitute the annual in-
hes, e;° the original ualification, by virtue of which
i" cht(lttaiwasPlaced on the register. If nothing occurred
4 (1., ra right—if everything remained the same,
llvest:d.NiorPeth contended that the strict searching.
the Ejetlon which the Irish Reform Act prescribed in
ttl, ake-ht: instance wasquite sufficient, and he would not
'4lterb" right to retqain his vote subject to any further
_it 1418 t part
of ; and he (Lord Morpeth) could not assent
tletle`,-hrt of the sche of the Noble Lord opposite w
'Lehi, -"c voter, aftermthis title had been clearly
.decideadr,
-..(hiat° have it called in question every succeedHionngsey;
L.ll(l‘,ha!'khear, from the Ministerial side of the
ne
7, caheiricut would cause what had been settle o year to
"' all (rd 'll question the next year, and so on, to the end
tvhiet, ilecorded time. That was not an
.extreme case
')ltclt• he
was supposing—it was one which,
and na-
terci 141 U of circumstances, might very probably . n
in the present
cep
418Yli '''Q "PeCted to occur in Ireland; supposing
dwhe-d
'tit 'taut Barrister who took the more restricte and
tile eril
;view of the' elective franchise, rejecte
tllis e e'rnant, l was, made to a Judge,
the „tee°l( the alar appeal
rPeaview of the franchise, and
,4inie „ter was by thatgJud e placed upon the register, the‘
mil' er,io the next ear wgas liable to be compelled to prove,
(leiTt again before the Assistant Barrister who had
iPtet Int 4,Peint of duty to reject him. So it was with re-
Ao DWI, t,4e second • l of h Noble Lord. He ( Lord
katt'e-'") woulde area ' that instance, that the Assist-.
ate, 1144,,,iiter tosl °the' imn ore liberal view of the right ot
cto tle ye 'yould admit the claimant ; an appeal was lodged
iraechi 1110 of Assize, who took a different view of theld
ha tine, and who disea;ded te voter. Thus !t, wou
s,eed r,e,kry Year When their voter succeeded in being
,I.,thr,„°- the regis.ter by the Assistant Barrister, he would
die ' lelt Assize be liable to be thrust off by the going
't,ite,la te of Et
At,ssize. The Noble Lord intimated
waina ad-
hewhiisilirl
L°P offs ' House on Tuesday evening that
)aded 1,(411e of the topmast branches of that hydras-
.icii B.ecitile of his respecting the different notices
O,frith he
Lit°,4l Ntiueerp,
0°.1,u i in a n t to vote should give.
fur a reference)l-' '4 supposed that they would
.not quarrel
4ili' part to to that part of the subject. Ile
the as aeces_ . content with whatever reform was speci.
a 'Noble 'at), on the subject. He was glad to find that
vote Lord
to
NI r r alread admitted the propriety of the objector
1,44 Of the bono the egistersta”tin the nature and cha-
I stating
him no more than
fitata perfe.l_ti-fn.;
v.
that
reasonable, and be was glad
e uerstand that they
and relae
hat on that
~ they would not have any question of dis-
t,' , ' he t subject. With reect to the Court of Ap-
taloa r4ord Al rp th) proposed to retain the same pro-
i'llieraljf:4sell.)' .11".heene introducedii into the Bill brought into
°ilatil. °r Irej„ iris Right an. Friend the Attorney-GeT
tr,v_g was
~.71, in the. Court of the last Session, and
%I‘4 Pre """tcniPlated in the system of. English regis-
tiiooies Ii by the Noble Lord, the Secretary for the
4-4144.4i,i4,,,i4elnets(LwohriedhAvvIoerreetoh. ),,assented to the weight. ,of
P rf,ed against the propriety
t A Itt the j„d
arid PPeid, a , Lich
of the land constitute the new Court
their they II:, he thought that that would have a tendency,
lki • sole, . already seen that it had, to contaminate
If%al' ltifitTenri functions with the imputation ofldabseustphice,
oiwi_f
ttki_4seriebefil.,baY party prejudlice.
Pet"eiln.p,,,,,,,i_to measure to ower(itthewiorurnost important
w th 4 its ,tee estimation, and he Lord Alorpeth) Pr.°. their ee bare an to make the new Appeal Court consist
of litti 'eters of a certain standing, who would hold
ths ega in .
oeis 1-101,..e - Dublin, and be appointed by the Speaker
or de C° use 3 of Commons. Having thus mentioned the
Noter of ,L°F Appeal, he was naturally brought, in
.the
bi tli I,,`L'e topics, to the. question.. of the franchise.
t'aßihitt, ~QaZo_ll,le Lord opposite, in his speechli the other
guilt'
,e;or7n to intimate that he (Lor.d , orpeht,h)
nweas_s
.f tb Lo,t he should be guilty of
mixing
uPt
t-ti
_Niamre, bt: franchise with other parts of the registrationLd
tbatr:oth)
aB° far from admitting that charge, he ( Lord
of 't was tired him that he always stated to the House
vie " butt kilt W, Only expedient at any time, or in any point
fr s4titd d 9, S absolutely essential before they con-
-4411-enfise 11-peeoetirtd pr?vt'sional- Court of. Appeal, to put the
4101.:, rbrq th
‘.4. distinct and ascertained basis.—( Hear,
site Path) ,iil Ministerial side of the House.) He, (Lord
wOue'l t, ',oat think that any Hon. Member who
and
irl °l'llarite'd tt," course of operation in this question, d
crir'and,. '''e Proceedings that had already taken place
I.IPCIR an d otlld doubt of the
i exPedi
Hear, hear.)
ill 4% he 'ln,. ,combining the subjects.—.encyof cur-
Nrespeot-Trit be permitted to ask, was the( stateof tthiitligies
k4le eletw.toe the qualifications? With respect
in
the
!,ii,',l)laec he b-ancluse of the people of Irelar— , .
1141'4 assist minds of the Judges were divided—the. muds
ti4goleslt taut barristers were divided—on leaving lie
s ore seat a d - . House, they found
,titir Onion,
of 4 corning into that
n-
Ntieed that the two great political parties wh.o. cif,
kaattentio.,
_House were equally divided ; and ipf tray
1111 it Foul t 0 the speeches in both Houses of ar i -
kthe t'l its ,ri u 1),, found that the Duke of Richmond was
ar"ole-aruthority upon this question in opposition, to
°1 LO rd
L d oPposite (Lord Stanley), and that the
ttiliitttLotsh,
Lmeeisoni:stdrio,:.___ne(was of a different opinion from
seenta
Hear, hear.) Thus it was
;;11141;tileadWa'
and its tlare' the Judges, and the bar, theframersi_
dministrators were equally divide( , and esp: raight"443.oetrplexed its interprotation.—( Hear, hear.)
thethe ettners of
_i'l subtle and interesting diversion to the
People bledtae law, but it was a diversion for which Wh„,the Practical Hear, hear.) No one could doubt
tea;Leser
li,lcal result of the present state of the law,
Sqtrlt testi, erP!etation might be given to the sohent
h M tk 48 it mieht for brevity be called, equally in-
ear\ "e conflict
( liws-eserne
said of testimony and of opinion—( Hear,
ahi er, Lea_ that it involved fraud and perjury
t,i!l Mello:, hear, 1 t
"10 appealed to any Honour-
eealighteacd er. who would take a dispassionate and
ndl,hle tc ~v_le, w 01 the question, whether it was not
e taalottisehiel'outsan end to such an inconvenient, unseemly,
bletc,er of cc,,„ state of things.—( Hear, hear.) It was
eliaa,,one in
_.-paratively little importance whether they
lato'd berletine or in two Bills ; but any measure which
tre,'' arid °laity alter th eh ~ would leave this
mode of registration in Ire_
tetes'' would cave this prime and radical esi un-
iittathlllariiike ic Fffect nothing in the way of sound and
,4eqped to the glsl4tion- If doubt and uncertainty were
otie 'rued,: wool Present state of the franchise, certainly the
1)eal, that iche.d be that which would place it on such a
she .) lin e could be no conflict of opinion.—( Hear,
ie_tlld I), 6;174 snug be
that a basis for the qualification
Clio . select u: distinct
'44 t, eeriii.
~_ , net from the franchise and. from
.alle
qt,eticat Nrilis;uatters. Further, that the basis should h
he h tn uud a counteracting check against the intro-
tiia,. ed found©p operation of any such matter. He thought,
j rate asp such a basis in the valuation for the I oor_
it it: y poorsl'escrbed by the recent Act for the introdue-f 41041 ed and rsll.lto Ireland, it showed upon the face o
4letil distinct e,finite view, and had been used for purposes
te be 04c•reocirn9nthteil franehise, in opposition to any
c regnary. They had then the

desire, which was far more prominent and' prevalent in
mankind, namely, that of sparing himself any pecuniary
burden he could avoid. He was glad to find that these
views and opinions, which came recommended by sound
reason and common sense, had been strongly recom-
mended by persons whose authority he would rather have
had than that of any others on such a question ; because it
was that of persons who took a moderate view of political
questions and belonged to both sides of the House. It was
said by an Hon. Friend of his, whom he did not then see
in his place, the Hon. Baronet the Member for Mallow
( Sir J. D. Norreys), on the occasion of a similar measure
being introduced by the Attorney-General in the course of
last Session—" That he regretted the Attorney-General
had left the franchise open to dispute, and to be decided
by opinion instead of facts. He thought the subject well
worthy the attention of the Right Hon. Gentleman, now that
Ireland had been valued for the purposes of rating under
the Poor-law Act, whether that might not be made the
basis of the franchise. By the present Bill the proof of
value was given upon oath, and landlord was arrayed
against tenant in the unnatural struggle. It would be most
desirable that a certain standard of qualification should be
adopted, which would render the franchise incapable of
being questioned or controverted. He hoped such a
plan would be adopted. He was followed by the
Honourable Member for Monaghan opposite, whose
words he would now quote to the llouse. (The
Noble Lord then read an extract from a speech de.
livered by Mr. Lucas during the course of last Session, in
which that Hon. Gentleman stated that he agreed with the
Hon. Member for Mallow as to the necessity of devising
some method of exactly ascertaining the franchise, and
that he thought the Poor-law valuation might very advan-
tageously be adopted for that purpose.) He would not
quote what he himself had said on that occasion, although
he was under a strong temptation of doing so, if only for
the purpose of showing bow little he was subject to the
charge of inconsistency for now appearing as the advocate
of the Poor-law franchise. The Noble Lord had the other
night taunted him on this subject, he supposed as a return
for his having given that Noble Lord his vote on the only
occasion on which he did give it him during the course of
the last Session ; but that speech would clearly show that
he was not open to any such charge, because he gave as
his reason for opposing the proposition of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Mallow, that at that period there was no power of
ascertaining the amount of the Poor-law valuation. He
would now proceed to quote from a speech relating to the
ascertaining the franchise, delivered not on the subject of
the Registration, nor of the Poor-law, nor during the course
of the last Session of Parliament, but delivered in the month
of May 1838 by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
Tamworth, whose absence on the present occasion he
( Lord Morpeth) deeply regretted, on the subject of the
franchise under the Municipal Corporation Act. (The
Noble Lord here read an extract from th© speech of Sir
Robert Peel delivered on the occasion alluded to in which
the Right Hon. Baronet stated, that he would not consent
to a municipal franchise, which should be 30 uncertain as
the Parliamentary one, and should give rise to a Corn.
mittee for the purpose of ascertaining the number of
fictitious votes on the register—that he thought the best
franchise to be adopted would be one that would act as a
check upon those seeking to obtain it, and that he thought
the Poor-law valuation would be the most desirable
standard for ascertaining the franchise that could be
adopted.) These extracts which he had read completely
confirmed the view he had taken as to the necessity of
fixing and ascertaining the franchise, and adopting such a
standard for that purpose as should in itself afford a suffi-
cient check. He thought he had shown the House that
the Government, in the course they had adopted were
fortified by reason and authority in asking the Ilouse to
accede to this proposition for fixing the franchise accord-
ing to the Poor-law valuation. He was aware that
there remained not the least difficult task to be performed,
and the one not the least open to discussion—he meant the
settlement of the amount at which it would he desirable
that the franchise should be fixed. He was aware that he
was approaching rather stormy confines, and that it was
hardly to be hoped that what he had to propose would be
equally acceptable to both parties in that House ; he only
hoped that whatever differences of opinion might arise on
that point, the House would believe that in what they were
about to propose the Government bad been actuated by
honest motives, and had proceeded on reasonable grounds.
It was usually apprehended on the part of those who were
friendly to a liberal interposition, that there was not a
valuation of every tenement as required by the provisions
of the Poor-law, and that the many deductions from the
clear value, and the desire which was so inherent in the
mind of every person who was liable to be rated under
the Act to have the amount of his contribution reduced to
the lowest possible level in almost any amount of rating con-
nected with the Poor-law rate, would have the effect of raising
the standard for the elective franchise higher than required
by the Reform Act now in force. He had before expressed
in the House, as he had already intimated, his own opinion
that it would be highly expedient to connect the standard
of the elective franchise especially with the Poor-law rate,
as the most satisfactory assessment of the kind which
could be furnished. He had at the same time to
explain that in the previous year they were not furnished
with sufficient information as to the probable working
and result of the Poor-law valuation, and that consequently
it would be premature to have recourse to any final leak-
lation on such a basis. Ile was afraid that even at this
day they were not furnished with as complete information
as could he wished on the point, but such information as it
had been in their power to gain they had thought it their
duty to exert themselves to attempt to acquire, and to col-
lect and digest as they best could. As soon as his
Right Honourable Friend reached Ireland after the
last Session, he had put himself in communica-
tion with the Poor-law Commissioners, in order to
obtain information in what unions the valuations were in
such a state of forwardness as to afford the most light on
the subject, and also as to the working and result of the
whole system in the different parts of the country, and
under different authorities, positions, and circumstances. His
Right Hon. Friend the Attorney-General for Ireland select-
ed two gentlemen of his own profession, on whose character
he could place the greatest reliance, and they were di.
rectcd under the advice of the Poor-law Commissioners,
to repair to such unions as he pointed out as most likely
to afford the fullest information that could be obtained, and
there to inquire as fully as they could into the nature of
the mode in which they were drawn up, and where they
could obtain information as to the lists of registered elec-
tors. In pursuance of those instructions, those gentlemen
visited unions in Longford, Belfast, Kilkenny, Cork, Ar-
magh, and other places. Now, it certainly was to be
wished that they could have comprised more unions in
their inquiry, but the imperfect state in which they found
many valuations prevented this from being the case.
The uniformity they had observed in the course of the pro-
ceedings in all the districts they had visited, and the diffe-
rence of the circumstances in these respective unions, gave
them reason to hope that the results they had taken were
a fair sample of what would appear on the whole surface
of Ireland. He was sorry to trespass upon the
patience of the House, but lie felt it was necessary
that he should impart to them something of the main sub-
stance and principal results of the inquiry which had been
submitted to the Government, and he thought he should
do so more briefly if he quoted the parties' own words ; he
would condense them as much as possible, but as they
formed the ground work of the proposition which he had
now to make, he trusted the House would bear with him,
while lie quoted a few extracts. They said that they had
inspected the rule hooks in every union, and the minutes
of the board of guardians, and had extracted the valua-
tions, that generally they found a uniformity. The Com-
mittee appointed in all the unions that had been visited,
came to the resolution that a new valuation was necessary.
In the unions visited, an opinion prevailed that the valua-
tion under the Poor-law, would influence the landlords in
determining the amount of the rent; and a desire also
existed that the relative value of the tenements should
be ascertained, that each might bear their burthens pro.
portion ally.
Mr. O'CONNE LL inquired who were the valuers?
Lord M 0 RPE Tfi said Mr. Haines and Mr. Vesey,
who had made most minute inquiries in each union. The
Noble Lord then read reports from several other unions
to the same effect, but which it would be vain to endea-
vour to report without having the documents themselves.
He knew not whether, from these statements, the Noble
Lord might not reckon upon it as a triumph, that there
were many 101. freeholders on the registry who should not
be placed there. However that might be, he thought it
right to put the House in possession of the true and cor-
rect state of the case. He thought the test that he was
about to propose was fully equal to the test of the beneficial
interest, or the test of what a solvent tenant would give.
He thought that the facts and circumstances which he
had pointed out went to show that a rated net value of 101.
under the Poor-law Act would range very far indeed
above either the solvent tenant test or the occupiers
profit test. In fact, it was clear that there were many
instances in which a rated net value of 5/. would raise
the standard for the election franchise higher than it
was at present, even where there was no suspicion of
abu,e. He was aware that if the test of the Poor-law
Commissioners was applied to the elective franchise there
would be in some instances a contrary motive to induce
persons to have themselves rated higher. But he thought
that would operate very feebly in the human breast, as
had been illustrated by the Right Hon. Baronet the Mem-
ber for Tamworth ; the privilege of voting being only
enjoyed occasionally, and after considerable intervals,
while the pressure of the Poor-law rate upon his purse or
his pocket formed an annual drawback and annoyance.
When they were called upon to make an alteration in the
elective franchise, it could hardly be considered expe-
dient by those who had heat d the statements in that
House, and which could not impugned, being Parlia-
mentary documents, the comparative number which en-
joyed elective franchises in both countries being extremely
small. As regarded Ireland, be did not wish to enter upon
that point of the inquiry, it being the peculiar province of
the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) But he would not do justice to that pert of the ar-
gument if he did not briefly call the attention of the House
to some of the most striking results and contrasts to be
observed between the number of Parliamentary
electors in Ireland and other parts of the kingdom.
He would give the comparative number of inhabitants and
of electors in different counties in England and Ireland
in the year 1837, for which he had correct returns. He
found that in Monmouth the population was 185,128, and
the number of the constituency was . In the county
of Cif-low the population was 72391 at the end of the year
1837, and the constituency 1,723. In Bedford, in Eng-
land, the population was 88,424, and the constituency
4,134. In the county Louth the population was 94,203.
and the constituency 989: In Cheshire the population
was 260,462, and the constituency' was 12,000. In Ros-
common the population was 244,000, and the constituency
2,061. In Somerset the population was 327,000, and the
constituency 18,415. In the county Tyrone the popula-
tion was 300,953, and the constituency 2,862. And in
the county of Mayo the population was 366,328, and the
constituency 2,057. He wished to state a fact in reference
to the constituency of that last county, of which he had
been assured. He had been told, on credible authority,
that, at the last election there, it appeared that the coo-
tdu e ceye had n
i n completelyf.ormed
br,e
number of electors now on dwindledthegenretlgkelinos7n he
had
am that
ounted
only ti 500 or 600, and by another that the

'• •

f number was stated at between 600 and 700. Yet these
I were the constituencies which the Noble Lord and Hon.
Gentlemen opposite would make them believe was swelled
up and vamped up by spurious voters. He did not think
that any attempt to diminish such a constituency would be
consonant with or recognised by the British Constitution.
—( Hear, hear.) He would proceed further with his re-
turns. In the county of Cork the population was 660,564,
and the constituency 37,448. In Yorkshire, the county
with which he (Lord Morpeth) was but too proud to be
connected, the population was 891,795, and the consti-
tuency 47,972. He owned that in this state of circum-
stances—in this relative position of the population and
constituencies of the two countries, it appeared to him that
it would not be expedient to raise in any degree the
standard of the elective franchise as it existed in Ireland.
He had already quoted his reasons for believing that a
very considerable reduction of the nominal value of land
would take place in Ireland if they adoped the Poor-law
valuation, and that they wouh‘Lthereby lower the bona
fide amount of property which would entitle to the
franchise under the Reform Act. ( Hear, hear,
hear.) Of course it would be hopeless and
chimerical, on the part of Government, to attempt
to fix on any precise sum which should be con-
sidered as an exact equivalent, under the Poor-law
valuation, for the amount of value prescribed by
the Act. It appeared to him, however, that where the
Poor-law fixed the rate on the occupier as a matter of
necessity which must be discharged by himself, and not
by another, that they might take, as the amount of the rate
requisite to give the elective franchise, a net value of five
pounds, that was to say, if they adopted the Poor-law
valuation. He would take as the amount of rate requisite
to give the elector's franchise the rateage of 5/. He did
not disguise from himself that in the course of time this
might lead to some increase in the number of those who
enjoyed the elective franchise.--( Hear, hear.) But he
did not think it would be any sudden or violent increase ;
he thought it would be a very slow and gradual one,
and that it would be perfectly in proportion to the increase
in the wealth and resources of the country. It would be
ascertained by a fixed and definite mode, and it would be
guarded, as far as any human contrivance or device could
be guarded, against the possibility of any fraud or pollu-
tion. He did not propose to effect any material alteration
in the tenure under which the elective franchise was at
present enjoyed. He knew there were some who were
for fixing the franchise purely upon rateage, without any
reference to tenure, making the right of voting entirely
independent of the period of the interest which the occu-
pier had in his house—( Hear, hear)—.and he knew that one
or two very plausible reasons might be stated in defence
of that principle. But he (Lord Morpeth) thought it
would be a novel principle in a constitutional point of
view. The only antecedent which they had of it was the
50/. tenant-at-will clause in England ; and as far as the
practical working of that been developed, it did riot fill him
with any irresistible wish to extend the same innovation,
upon a much more enlarged scale, to the entire population
of Ireland. It was true that this innovation would
make the occupier, as to his right of voting, en-
tirely independent of his landlord. They now frequently
heard, whether with justice or not, of the mode in which
landlords dealt with their tenants who did not coincide
with them in their political opinions. He thought that to
give the right of voting, when there was no right of pos-
session, would expose a far larger and more helpless class
to a much more real dependence on their landlords, and to
risks of a much more severe retaliation ; and, much as he
desired the extension of the elective franchise, he owned
that he set a higher value upon the harmony and good will
of the several classes of society. While, therefore, he
would discountenance and do what in him lay to repress
all undue aggressions of one class upon another, he would
not originate any proposition which would have the effect
of heightening and inflaming those differences. He pro-
posed, therefore, to annex the franchise to the possession
of a tenement rated at the net value of 51. He had now
brought the main provisions of this Bill before the House.
It appeared to him that the fixing of the franchise upon
the Poor-law valuation would go far to dispose of the
necessity for the two other alterations. They would then
have a fixed and ascertained basis liable to no fraud, lead-
ing to no disputes, and susceptible of no contradiction ;
and this, he owned, was in his mind the great inherent su-
periority which the rateage code that he (Lord Morpeth)
had proposed, had over that which had been proposed by
the Noble Lord opposite. As a complete system of re-
gistration, the Noble Lord's might appear more complete
in all its parts, especially if his wish were to draw the
voter into the meshes of a tangled and intricate machinery.
—(Hear, hear.) With an unsettled and disputed fran-
chise, it would still carry with it the seeds of endless con-
flict, and a continued array of antagonist passions and
parties, which would only be overcome by that process for
which he (Lord Morpeth) thought the Bill was admirably
calculated—that of choking and smothering the elective
franchise altogether. The system which he (Lord Mor-
peth) tendered to the preference of the House put an end
almost at once to every possible litigated and. controverted
point to which it applied ; and, as at once distinctly ascer-
tained and permanently recorded, supplied in itself a coun-
tervailing and counteracting check against the introduc-
tion of any abuse, and came down to them recommended
by the concurrent suffrages of the best authorities.
That the measure which he had then stated would
meet with the universal acquiescence of the House,
lie was not sanguine enough to anticipate ; but
he could not divest himself of the hope that what he then
proposed, the more it should be considered and the more
it should he canvassed would recommend itself to the de-
liberate acquiescence of the most rational men of all
parties, and to the general acquiescence of the country ;
and in this hope and in this faith he would " move for
leave to bring in a Bill to amend the law relating to the
qualification and registration of Parliamentary voters in
Ireland."

The SPEAKER having pat the question,
Lord STANLEY then rose, and said that under every
circumstance he should have followed the example that
had been set him by the Noble Lord who had just sat
dosen, and the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies,
and upon the motion of the Noble Lord as it originally
stood for leave to introduce a Bill to amend the law with
regard to the registration of Parliamentary voters in Ire-
land, or, as it had been altered within the last forty-eight
hours, for the amendment of the law of franchise as well
as of registration, have abstained from offering any oppo-
sition to its being introduced, or any lengthened observa-
tion on the contents of the Bill. But, said the Noble
Lord, if I should have done so under any circumstances,
more especially am I called upon most cautiously to
abstain from observation, when the Noble Lord by way
of a postscript—an indisponsible postscript indeed, but a
postscript only—to the great and pressing subject of regis-
tration, introduced by way of a clause and appendage to
the subject no provision for the purpose of removing
doubts as to the existing qualification—no attempt at de-
fining the present franchise in Ireland, but a new Reform
Bill, founded upon principles unknown in Ireland—
founded upon principles unheard of in England—founded
upon principles of which no human being would have
dreamt with regard to Scotland.—( Hear, hear.) 'Why,
Sir, to imagine the Noble Lord can append this species
of postscript to a Registration Bill, and that it shall not
have the effect, whatever the Noble Lord's intention may
be, of rendering the passing of his registration measure, '
and the remedy of those abuses, which, I am happy to
find, he acknowledges almost to the full extent—impossible,
at all events, during the present Session—l cannot for a
single moment doubt. I ask whether it is possible the
House can agree to this measure, without having any notice
beforehand of the data upon which it is founded, without
having any information furnished to the House—
more than that, without information possessed by the
Noble Lord himself, on which to found any possible cri-
terion by which, not to judge of, but to guess at the result
and the effect of the measure he is about to propose.—
( Cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") Upon what is it that the
Noble Lord proposes to found his alteration of the whole
system of the franchise as it now stands in Ireland ? Upon
what is it that he proposes to found the deviation and de-
parture from every principle which the law of England and
the law of Scotland, with regard to Parliamentary elec-
tion, have hitherto been considered to be settled ? Why
upon the information of two gentlemen, friends, as he
states, of the Hon. and Learned Attorney-General, who
have been sent privately by the Noble Lord to ten of the
Poor-law unions in Ireland, and who bring back their re-
turns from those Poor-law unions, which the Noble Lord
reads to us, as to part, from the manuscript he has re-
ceived—which the Noble Lord has not informed us he pro-
poses to lay on the table of this House for our guidance, but
on which he considers himself justified.to call upon Parlia-
ment to accede to this enormous alteration of the fran-
chise. It is impossible to :follow the Noble Lord when
he reads the statements of these gentlemen, as they have
derived this from the Peor-law Commissioners, or rather
from the various guardians of the ten unions, and to ascer-
tain upon what principle it is that this valuation on which
he proposes to rest the whole fabric of his measure has
been founded. But from what I have been able to collect
from the Noble Lord's reading, I really hardly know whe-
ther I am to believe the evidence of my senses, or
whether I am not under some strange misconception of
the Noble Lord's intention when he tells us that these
valuations have been founded, as he considers, upon the
net value of the property according to the amount of rent
at which a fair and just-dealing landlord might be expected
to let it to the tenant; and yet the Noble Lord
tells us the valuations so founded, giving to the
whole of the property the net value, the rent
in the market, independent of any deductions of
61., t;l., or 101., are found to be fifty and a hundred
per cent. too high for persons who actually at this
moment are registered as electors, having a 10/. beneficial
interest.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord tells us that in
the case of Balruddery he found 200 101. electors who bad,
in some shape or other, a beneficial interest of 101. a year.
The Noble Lord also tells us that of these 200 electors he
finds no less than 50 the whole value of whose property in
the market is no more than 10/. a year, if they paid not
one shilling rent for this property. He finds also no less
than 17 of whom these valuators declare that if the whole
amount was let to-morrow it would not be worth more than
5/. a year, and yet these persons are registered as having a
beneficial interest over and above their rent, entitling them
to vote upon a 10/. qualification.—( Cheers from the Op-
position. Well might the Noble Lord think he would
give me a triumph.—(Cheers.) It is a peremptory tri-
umph, but I could hardly believe that a system of fraud
upon the existing franchise in Ireland had been carried on
in any country to that enormous extent to which he now
learned from the statement of the Noble Lord it had been.
—( Cheers and counter cheers.) The Noble Lord says
that the alteration which he proposes is a large alteration,
and that it is a fresh settlement of the franchise. No
doubt it is a large alteration—no doubt it is altogether a
fresh settlement of the franchise.—( Cheers.) I shall not
follow the Noble Lord through all the topics lie has urged,
and which he says have hitherto been the exclusive property
of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, of the com-
parative proportion between population and representation
in various counties in Ireland and England. I should like
to know distinctly from the Government whether they now
declare it was the intention that the RefOrmed Parliament
or the qualification of electors, should be based upon po-
pulation, and not upon property..—( Opposition cheers. )
as a Member of Lord Grey's Government, always un-
derstood it was distinctly stated by every Member of the
Government, that it was on property, and not upon popu-

lation, the franchise was proposed to be based; that the
right was to depend not upon the number of the popula-
tion in a particular county, but upon the number of that
population who were in possession of a certain amount of
property, which property would place them in such a state
of respectability and independence of circumstances as
would entitle them to exercise the elective franchise.—
( Hear.) The Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies
will not deny that proposition ; and I ask the Noble Lord,
I entreat him to correct me, if I am wrong in stating
.that
these are his propositions—that every man who occupies a
dwelling, with land attached to it, to be rated at 51. a-
y ear, shall be entitled to the benefits, which by the present
laws are conferred on those who are rated at 101. ?
Lord MORPET H—With fourteen years' interest.
Lord STANLEY—Very well: with fourteen years'
interest. I heard a great deal said of the inexpediency of
lowering the franchise in counties to 101. ; but if I
rightly understand the Noble Lord, he proposes to
deluge the counties,—(Cheers.) At the rate at which
land is let in Ireland, every man who is in possession of a
cabin and two acres of land, although he pays double or
rack-rent, shall be thrown upon the constituency for the
purpose of creating a body of free and independent
voters.—( Repeated cheering from the Opposition benches. )
I hope I rightly understand the Noble Lord. Indeed, I
take it from his silence that I did not misunderstand him—
( Hear)— and that I have stated his intentions as he wishes
them to be understood by the Hou;e and the country.—
( Ilear.) If so, I will not now prematurely comment
upon any part of the Bill.—( Hear,. hear.) I earnestly
desire to see it printed, and to leave it to tell its own tale,
and to make its own way in this House, and with the
people of England and Ireland.—(Loud cheers from both
sides.)

Lord HO WICK said, Sir, like my Noble Friend who
has just sat down, I propose to reserve my views on this
subject for a future stage of the Bill ; but as I was last
year placed in the painful position of being compelled, on
morelthan one occasion, to oppose, in reference to this sub-
ject, those friends with whom for years I have been accus-
tomed to act; I cannot deny myself the satisfaction now
at the first moment to declare at once, and without hesi-
tation, that in the principle of my Noble Friend's proposi-
tion—as far as relates to the alteration of the qualification
of voters in Ireland—l give him my most hearty concur-
rence.—(Great cheering on both sides.) Last year, when
the subject was under consideration, I was persuaded, as,
indeed, it %[ as admitted on both sides of the House, that the
existing system offered facilities for fraud and temptations
to perjury, and to violations of all the principles of the law.
—( Hear, hear.) On that occasion I stated such to be my
opinion, and the opinion which I then expressed I do not
now regret. I said that I would support a measure
which should provide for the more full and satisfactory
administration of the law. I said that if the law was
defective I would concur in its amendment; but I would
not be a party to an attempt to remedy the inconveniences
by defeating and evading the law.--( Hear, hear.) I
would not consent to that course, because I believed that
in doing so we should undermine in Ireland the sanctity of
an oath—respect for the laws, and the principles of reli-
gion and morality which constitute the true strength of a
country. But, Sir, I supported the principles of the Bill
introduced by my Noble Friend opposite, because I thought
that bs a little alteration, it might be made the means of
carryng out the law of registration fairly and satisfactorily.
Believing this I would not consent to oppose that measure
for any purpose of party convenience, nor even for the
purpose of avoiding a separation from my friends.—( Hear, i
hear.) But I then gave a pledge that I act now here to
redeem.—( Cheers.) Although I concurred with the
Noble Lord in his desire to establish a tribunal to investi-
gate the claims of the voters, it was not my object to re.
strict the franchise—(Cheers)—on the contrary, I stated
that I would be prepared to concur in any measure which
would amend the extremely unsettled state of the
franchise.--( Hear, bear.) The principle of the recom-
mendation now offered by my Noble Friend was, if I re-
member rightly, thrown out by the Hon. Member for
Monaghan, Mr. Lucas, and it seems to rest upon the
simplest principles of the franchise. It may be true, as my
Noble Friend opposite (Lord Stanley) has stated, that it is
a plan unheard of in England, and undreamt of in Scotland.
But even if it be so, yet, as I believe it is suited to the ex-
isting state of society in Ireland, and that it is calculated
to correct the great evils which now prevail in that country,
1 am not to be deterred from giving it my support by any
consideration of that kind.--( Cheers.) I think it is suited
to the circumstances of Ireland.—(Cheers.) I think it is
calculated to correct those evils.—( Cheers.) With re-
spect to the existing franchise, I think it is impossible for
any man to look to what is passing before our eyes and deny
that it requires to be more clearly defined.—( Hear, hear.)
What is the meaning of the words " beneficial interest," as
they are understood on the opposite side of the House ? On
this side it is contended, and by many able lawyers, that
they were intended to include whatever profit might be
produced by a man's own labour out of his holding.—
On the other hand, it is held by gentlemen opposite that
every holding should be of the clear value of 101., with-
out any consideration of the labour employed upon it.
But on the other hand it is contended that "beneficial inte-
rest" means that he is to be able to underlet his land to a
solvent tenant for 101. more than he gives for it. If that
definition is to be accepted, I say that the Reform Bill was
a delusion practised on the people of Ireland : if that is to
be the definition put upon the words " beneficial interest,"
is it possible to conceive that, in the state of society in that
country, and the manner in which land is usually occupied
there, such a definition would not restrict and narrow the
franchise in a manner inconsistent with the Reform Bill ?
Well, Sir, if both those definitions fail, if we would put an
end to those scenes with which we are familiar in Election
Committees of this House, in which parties are brought
forward—a laud-surveyor on the one side swearing
that the land was not worth 101., and the occupier swear-
ing, on the other, that it was worth that sum—both attach-
ing different meanings to the word, and both justifying
thereby, in their own opinions, the oaths they had taken—
if, I repeat, we wish to put an end to these abuses, we are
driven to look for a new franchise, and in seeking for that
new franchise, what principle is so simple in the existing
state of Ireland, so likely to prevent disputes and conflict-
ing swearing, and all the excitement of the present regis-
tration—what is so likely to answer all these purposes as to
regulate the franchise according to the amount at which
land is rated, and that be the condition on which the
franchise is to be gained? It appears to me that that
principle is perfectly just and proper. It remains for
consideration at a future stage of these proceedings to
see whether the amount which my Noble Friend pro-
posed to make, namely 51. annual, be a proper amount
or not. Upon that point Hon. Members opposite gave
a definitive opinion, but I will fairly state to the
House, that, as far as my opinion on the question goes,
I perfectly concur in the view of my Noble Friend. I con-
sider it of great importance with respect to Ireland that
matters should be so arranged that the franchise in that
country may not be improperly narrowed, and though those
statements which the Hon. and Learned Member for Dub-
lin repeated so frequently last year as to the comparative
number of voters with respect to the population of Eng-
land and Ireland—though in my opinion they are thoroughly
worthless and idle when brought forward for the purpose
for which they were used, yet they were of the most mate-
ial importance when we are to consider how the new
franchise is to be established. I feel too strongly attached
to the groat principles of popular liberty not to consider
it absolutely necessary to fix the franchise in such a manner
that the great body of the people of Ireland may feel
that those representatives who come to this House in their
name really speak the opinions and represent the feelings
of the majority of the people.---( Cheers.) Unhappily it is
the misfortune of Ireland—it is the misfortune entailed
on it by the misgovernment and misdeeds of former
times, that the great bulk of landed property in Ireland
is in the hands of persons divided by strong opinions and
prejudices from the majority of the population. I regard
that as an evil of the greatest magnitude in the present
state of Ireland; but it is in vain that we have passed an
Irish Reform Bill, if, that being the state of things, we
now so frame a measure by which She whale political
power of that great country will be an:Own into the hands
of a small minority, whose power has, for the last few
years, been put an end to, and which, if now again re-
stored, will be an evil still greater than its former exist-
ence.—( Ministerial cheers.) The interval which bad oc-
curred, notwithstanding the many imperfections of the
system, and its many gross and glaring defects, would
make the evil of the restoration of ascendancy perfectly
intolerable. Sir, the state of Ireland now is calculated
to excite very serious apprehensions, and I, for one, do
not regard the scenes which have been passing in that
country during the last few months without very great
concern and alarm ; but I believe that none of the great
parties into which this country is divided are free
from great and serious blame for the existence
of that danger in Ireland (Hear) I think
that great blame, if I may be permitted to say
so, is attributable to Hon. Gentlemen opposite, who aro in
the habit of holding language and supporting measures
which must be highly distasteful to the great body of the
people of Ireland. I think, en the other hand, that great
and serious blame is due to those who for many months
have been repeating to the people of Ireland that the in-
tention of the British House of Commons, in assenting in
its several stages to a measure of which the professed ob-
ject was to amend the tribunal for registering electors—
that the real intention of the majority of the British House
of Commons, in passing that measure, was to disfranchise
the people of Ireland. Great and serious responsibility
theh i e
h House
bud,
of
was incurred by those who represented in this light to the
people
Bill,ot' the
l the parts majorityo
off
w
at different times, been proposed by her Majesty's Ministers.
Commons
o f
in Ireland a d
ot
ph
te i n agc
a t
tlblee could not o
noft htenlop
mteheinsukriengthtehyatvrethroosleaarteyperaersednitsaetuiossningaof,
had had a great effect in creating in the minds of the
weigh the effects of the, different
clauses of an Act of Parliament, but must judge of the
peopleh
e expected
Ireland,
a bend bl e the
effects likely to be protgore at
majority of whom could not
duced from them by the represen-
tations of those in whom they placed confidence—he could
not help thinking that these representations had con-
tributed mainly to create in the minds of the people of
Ireland that feeling of soreness and that sense of injus-
tice which formed the foundation of the edifice of the
repeal agitation ; and he thought that still greater blame
was due to the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin,
and he was glad that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
was present to hear what lie said as to the means which he had
taken to excite that feeling of dissatisfaction to which he had
alluded. He deeply lamented the state of feeling at present
existing in Ireland, and he blamed different parties as at:
cp'esrssuuraidee'dtothtialist i f creatingb
the repeal agitation—if they ished to deprive the Hon,
and Learned Gentleman of that lever which he had used
so effectively, they would, in considering this measure, take
acre that it should he so flamed as that the principle of
otl of that feeling. He was perfectly
sides of the House wished to crush
ascendancy should not be restored.—( Loud cheers.) Ho
had already on this the first discussion of the subject spoken
at greater length than he had intended when he rose. He
would not pledge himself to argue on any of the details of
the plan h:s Noble Friend the Secretary for Ireland had
sketched out. All he meant to say was, that he certainly
most entirely concurred in the principle on which that
measure was founded; and when the Bill was printed, he
should look attentively into the details of the measure, in
hopes of finding there such as to carry into effect the views
which he had expressed,—( Loud cheers.)

Mr. O'CONNELL wished, in the irst instance, to
call the attention of the House to a statement which had
been made by the Noble Lord on that side of the House,
and alluded to by the Noble Lord opposite, relating to the
registration in the barony of Balruddery, in the county of
Dublin. The statement was, that out of 200 registered
voters there were no less than 50 the whole of whose pro-
perty was not rated at more than 101. a-year to the Poor-
law. Now he wished to inform the House that the Gen.
tleman who had registered those voters, the Chair-
man of Kilmainham, had, up to the time of his elevation
to the Bench, been considered as a rigid Conservative.
it had even been stated that that gentleman had on one oc-
casion appeared in public, wearing the Orange badge.
He was not aware whether such was the fact, but there
could be no doubt as to his political principles ; neither
could there be any doubt that that gentleman held extreme
opinions as to the value. He considered the test to be
applied, was the solvent tenant test, so that these voters
had been registered by a gentleman of Conservative prin-
ciples, and who adopted the highest test of value ; and yet
under the Poor-law valuation fifty out of 200 of the voters
thus registered, were rated under 101, That showed the
House that the Poor-law valuation was not a low rated
valuation. He would confess frankly that this Bill of the
Noble Lord had given him great satisfaction, and he
thought he was entited to say that, if adopted, it would
give satisfaction to the people of Ireland.—(Cheers.) As
the other Noble Lord had stated, it would take a strong
weapon out of his (Mr. O'Connell's) hands.—( Hear,
and cheers.) The Noble Lord had said that he had
made a wrcng use of that weapon ; lie would not now
enter into a discussion with the Noble Lord on
that subject. The Noble Lord was of opinion that last
Session the House had intended fairly by Ireland. Now
he was of opinion that the House had intended to oppress
Ireland. The Noble Lord looked upon the measure of
last session as one intended for the good regulation of the
franchise. He (Mr. O'Connell) looked upon it as a mea-
sure having for its object to extinguish the franchises of
the people of Ireland.—( Cheers.) But there was a way
to solve every doubt, an easy way of contradicting him and
showing he was wrong. He would propose the present
measure as a test. If the House agreed to the Noble
Lord's Bill, they would be adopting a measure which would
give satisfaction to the people of Ireland, which would do
away with every pretence for bringing forward against
them the false and foul charge of perjury.—(Cheers.)
It would have the advantage of taking away from every
body even the temptation to false swearing.---( Loud
cheers.) But what if they adopted the measures of the
Noble Lord opposite ? Why, that Noble Lord had shrank
from defining the franchise—(Cheers)-eehe introduced a
Registration Bill, and although he had taken the
trouble to construct a most elaborate machine, when he
was asked what the =chine was to do, lie would not tell.
(Loud cheers.) If he went to any manufacturing town
in the North of England, and proposed the erection of
some most elaborate piece of machinery, the first question
which would be proposed to him would be, What do you
propose your machinery to do ?—(Loud cheering.)
If he said, " I am undecided what sort of article it shall
be, but lay out your capital on the machine," ho (Mr.
O'Connell) thought the Noble Lord would be as much
laughed at in Yorkshire as he was disrelished in Ireland.
—( Hear, bear.) But then the excuse was, it would take
up too much time of the House—that the Hun. Lord had
not leisure to define the franchise. But it must bo defined
somehow. Would they send it to the Quarter-sessions,
and have an appeal every year to the Judges ?—to Judges
who differed on the subject? When he had addressed the
House before he had stated that seven Judges were in
favour of the question of the solvent tenant test, but that
five were the other way ; but there had been a change
since. The present Chief Baron had joined the five, so
that take it as strongly as they would there were six to six.
—( Hear hear, hear.) Mr. Justice Ball had not had the
point brought before him, but if he was of the same
opinion as he was when at the Bar, then the
proportion would be exactly altered ; there would be seven
in his (Mr. O'Connell's) way, and five the contrary. Was
this a situation in which the people of Ireland should be
placed ?--( Cheers.) Should any impute to the present
Chief Baron political motives? He (Mr. O'Connell)
thought this of him—he was not much employed as an ad-
vocate, but he (Mr. O'Connell) thought that he made a
most excellent Judge. They had a similar instance in
this country ; the present Lord Chancellor was not a
first-rate advocate, but he (Mr. O'Connell) believed it
was admitted that be was a first-rate Judge. The powers
requisite for an advocate and for a Judge were different
things. He thought the Chief Baron of Ireland had
delivered a most satisfactory judgment in turning round.
But the Noble Lord's (Morpeth's) Bill would put an end
to all this, and an end to all discussion as to the politics
of Judges.—(Hear, hear.) Was it not said that they
came into that House with bad politics to make them-
selves Judges ? While this system lasted it must be so—
( Hear, hear, hear)—the fairest men would be liable to ca-
lumny ; and calumny against the Bench, when not de-
served, when it was calumny, was certainly a matter not
to be encouraged by any statesman; but this would con-
tinue if they followed the Noble Lord's (Lord Stanley's)
plan, which refused to tell what the franchise was--
( Hear.) The Chief Baron decided one way, and Mr.
Howley, the Chairman of Tipperary, decided another way.
Here were two men, as far as they could be influenced by
it, of the same politics, who differed on the subject. Was
this a situation to leave the franchise in ? Suppose Judge
Crampton went the Circuit he would construe it strictly ; if
the Chief Baron went he would construe it liberally. All
this would be avoided by adopting the Bill of the Govern-
ment.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord talked of the si.
tuation of Ireland. It is right that he should do so. I may be
sneered at by some; but I know more of the situation of
Ireland, and I avow that there is among the people of
Ireland a strong, an overwhelming, a rooted conviction
that they cannot obtain justice in this House. This is my
opinion. Is it then, more prudent for you—for now you
have your choice—to show a disposition to do justice, or
to act with oppression ?—( Hear, hear.) The House has
now the opportunity of showing its feeling towards Ire-
laud. And I ask you is it not wise to do us justice? I
don't caro what prejudice or bigotry may think, and I
believe it is from some notion that it is good
for the Protestant Church that you act oppres-
sively towards us, though you thereby pay but a
bad compliment to the Protestant Church when
you make it the ally of injustice and oppression.—( Cheers.)
But taking the situation of Ireland, this feeling is increas-
ing. And are you at liberty to forget that you may want
the right arm of the country? You may want it sooner
than you suppose. France is now determined not to go
to war at present, but has she made her mind up
not to go to war when she is prepared ? Are
you sure she is not now preparing to go to
war ? Is not the popular sentiment set at nought
by erecting forts round Paris, and are not those who have
been thought most anxious for liberty, straining every
nerve to make Paris formidable to the world ? Is not your
peace an armed peace, as was said on the first evening of
the Session ? Is not Germany, is not every State in
Europe, arming ? And are you going at such time to disarm
England, by shaking off Ireland ? Is this wise or prudent ?
The Noble Lord may display his talent, he may display his
prejudice—l won't call it his hatred, or his virulence—to-
wards us, but let him remember that at no time is it wise
or honest to make a country disaffected. At the present
time it is totally unsafe to make Ireland disaffected. You
will want Ireland, I know not how soon, and no doubt
you may have her at the slight purchase of justice—
( Hear, hear)—and no doubt, also, you may lose her by
doing her injustice. In one of those despatches of the
Noble Lord (Lord Palmerston), which should bo made
the study of this House, the Noble Lord writes to Me-
hemet Ali, " Your Highness must know that nothing
is so difficult as to retain possession of a country, the
people of which are disaffected." What is true
of Syria, is equally true of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.)
It is true. I therefore call upon the House—you will not
divide to-night, you will have time to think—l call upon
those of large fortunes, of great possessions, who livo in
ease and luxury—l call upon the wealthy portion of the
community to well bethink themselves that for the secure
enjoyment of all these luxuries, they may want the support
of Ireland in the day of battle. They cannot have a
braver or a stronger—l call upon them to think of these
things, and to make their choice between the curse of Ire-
land and the Noble Lord's (Lord Stanley's) Bill on the one
side, and the blessing of Ireland and the Bill of the Noble
Secretary (Lord Morpeth) on the other.--( Cheers. )
Mr. SHAW was not surprised that the Honourable and
Learned Member for Dublin had said he was satisfied
with the provisions of the Bill of the Noble Lord ; for his
own part he ( Mr. Shaw wondered) that the Noble Lord
had named any sum at all • he might as well have said
universal suffrage, for a 51. franchise to prevail over all
Ireland was something similar to universal suffrage. It was
monstrous to give counties as small a franchise as towns.
Mr. HUME begged to ask, notwithstanding the Hon.
Member who had just sat down had characterized a 51.
franchise in Ireland as monstrous, whether it was mon-
strous to give a fair franchise to Ireland ? He thought
the pro Position of the Noble Lord on the Treasury
benches was a most excellent one, and it would do more
to put an end to agitation in Ireland, and take from the
Hon. Member for Dublin the great power he wielded, in
consequence of the injustice that had been done to Ire-
land, than any measure that had been introduced. He
hoped the House of Commons would show that there
were gentlemen in that House, who were determined to
do justice to Ireland.
Sir R. BATE SON observed that it had been stated
that there was hardly a parish in Ireland that bad not pe-
titioned against the Bill of the Noble Lord the Member
for North Lancashire. He denied that, and defied the
Hon. Member who had made the assertion to point out a
single petition that had emanated from the province of
Ulster. That province contained as much respectability
and property as any other three provinces in Ireland. The
thanks of the province of Ulster had been voted to the
Noble Lord for bringing in the Bill for which he had re-
ceived so much scurrility and abuse.

Mr.BELLEW observed that every parish in his county
had petitioned against the Bill of the Noble Lord, the
Member for North Lancashire. He (Mr. Bellew) of-
fered his thanks to the Noble Lord, the Secretary for Ire-
land. for the Bill he had that night moved for leave to in-
troduce. as he believed it would be productive of great
good in Ireland. Nothing but a definition of the franchise
would effect the object they had in view, which was to
tranquillize the minds of the people of Ireland. The
Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire was, or
pretended to be, sadly afraid of any extension of the suf-
frage to the people of Ireland ; but had he ever expressed
the slightest horror at the extermination of the tenantry,
which hml taken place since 1832, and for political of-
fences, as they were called ? Fur the sake of Ireland
and justice, he trusted that a fair consideration would be
afforded to the Bill of the Noble Secretary for Ireland,
without regard to any party triumph. If that wero
not done, it would create in the minds of the
people of Ireland, even in the minds of those who were
in favour of the union of the twocountries, an estrangement
a species of insular feeling, because they would be con-
vinced that they had nothing more to hope for from
that House—their feeling in favour of the union would bo
swept away by despair. He trusted the conduct of the
House would still allow them to hope.
Mr. .1. O'CONNELL said, with respect to what had
fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet with regard to the
Ulster Meeting, he must remind the House that its re-

' spectability depended entirely upon the word of the
Hon. Baronet, for, with the exception of his own re-
spectable name, all the others that were present were
shrouded in entire obscurity, and that meeting could not
in any way be put in comparison with the meeting lately
held in Dublin, which was attended by Noblemen and Gen-
tlemen from all parts of Ireland, and that for the express
purpose of opposing the Bill of the Noble Lord op-
pos.te.---(Hear, hear.) He was extremely delighted
at the principles of the Bill introduced by the Noble
Secretary for Ireland, and he sincerely trusted that its
details would be worked out in such a manner as to give
satisfaction to the people of Ireland. The lion. Gentle-
men opposite, however, must not suppose that it gave un-
mixed satisfaction to Hon. Gentlemen on that (the Minis-
terial) side of the House, for they did net like that the right
of the franchise should at all depend upon the question of
tenure. The Noble Lord opposite had taunted the Noble
Secretary for Ireland that he had shrunk from going the
full length expected from him, but the Noble Lord also
had shrunk from what was expected of him; he had not
dared to make or introduce into his Bill any definition of
the franchise. He would implore of the Noble Lord, if
his words had any effect, to avail himself of the golden
bridge now ()tiered him in the Bill of the Noble Secretary
for Ireland—he would implore him to give up his own Bill
and support that of the Noble Lord ; for any step that was
made in his Bill seas adding to the disgust of the people of
Ireland, and greatly increasing the numbers of repeaters.
If, as the Noble Lord said, he was pledged to the death
against repeal, let him take the best means in his power
to put that question down—let him take up the Bill
of:the Noble Lordithe Secretary for Ireland—let him make
it perfect according to its spirit, and show the p'eople of
Ireland that all justice was not to be denied them. He
did not expect that the Noble Lord would follow his advice,
for there was a short-sightedness about the policy of the
Honourable Gentlemen apposite, that he trusted would
lead to their destruction. He trusted, however—nay, he
expected, that the Hon. Gentlemen on that (the Ministe-
rial) side of the House would give their zealous and undi-
vided support to the Bill of the Noble Secretary for Ire-
land ; for the people of that country did not understand
why their rights should be given away by Parliamentary
courtesy. They were deeply disgusted by every step that
was made by the Bill of the Noble Lord.
Mr. Sergeant JACK SON did not rise for the
purpose of offering any opposition to the intro-
duction of the Bill of the Noble Secretary for
Ireland—nay, indeed, he rather rejoiced at it ; but
he had fully hoped that the time had come when there
would have been an end to the attacks upon the Noble
Lord the Member for North Lancashire, as the enemy of
Ireland ; because now there was acknowledged abuse in
the registration of Ireland, and acknowledged by all
parties. He rejoiced to see that the Noble Lord
intended to put an end to the certificate system—
the fruitful source of fraud.—(Hear.) Ho rejoiced to
see they were to have an annual registry, whereby the
register would be purged of the names of Cead men, re-
movals, &c. ; and he rejoiced also that to a certain extent
the Noble Lord was about to give a double appeal. Ile
hailed the Bill as being introduced with a sincere desire to
remedy a great evil, lie could not accord the same feel-
ings to those which had formerly been introduced on the
same subject. He could not, however, agree in all that
had fallen from the Noble Lord, but he was glad that he
had refrained from attempting to make that the law of the
land which had been declared not to be the law by the
Judges of Ireland. He highly disapproved of the hi.
franchise ; it would amount to nothing more than another
revolution such as they had had in 1832. However, all
these points would be better discussed at a future stage of
the Bill. With respect to the attack which the Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin had made on a most respect-
able member of the bar in Ireland, Mr. Blacket, he pro-
tested that he had never heard even a rumour that he be-
longed to any Orange society, but he would pledge him-
self that that gentleman had never gone his circuit with
any Orange badge upon his person. Probably the Hon.
and Learned Member had confounded this with the case
of Colonel Blacket, who had been dismissed from the
Commission of the Peace because his lady had been ac-
cused of wearing a dress of a certain colour; but, at all
events, the Hon. and Learned Member was the last person
iu the world to camplain of any persons wearing badges,
when he even appeared in that House with one upon his coat.
He was rejoiced to find that the Noble Lord opposite had
introduced his Bill; and he did not regret to find that it
had been submitted to the House, conjointly with the Bill
of the Noble Lord near him. He trusted that, between
them, Ireland would receive a measure which would put
an end to the abuses which, it was admitted upon all hands,
now existed in the registration system in that country.
Mr. O'CONNELL wished to say one word of explana-
tion in reference to a remark of the Learned Gentleman.
He (Mr. O'Connell) did not mean to mention it by way
of a disparagement to Mr. Blacket, that he had worn an
Orange badge. Ho bad merely referred to the rumour
on that subject, by way of illustration. It was the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman himself who seemed to consider
the fact of wearing an Orange badge as injurious to Mr.
Blacket's character.

Mr. Sergeant JACK SON said that he certainly thought
it wrong of any one to wear a badge which gave offence
to the people among whom he lived.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. VIL LIERS STUART was rejoiced at the in-
troduction of the Bill of the Noble Lord, as he thought
it was :calculated to place the system of registration in
Ireland on a better footing. He admitted the incon-
veniences of the existing system, which he considered op-
posed to the best interests of the country. But in at-
tempting to amend it they should not introduce a new
evil. If they were to have really a representative system,
they should give the party seeking to be registered every
possible facility for establishing his right, or else the
claimants would not defend it. He thought that the
measure of the Noble Lord near him would put an end
to the violent agitation which now prevailed in Ireland;
while he was persuaded that an attempt to persevere in the
measure of the Noble Lord opposite would only induce
the people of that country to struggle to have their Par-
iament again in Dublin-4 Hear, hear.)
Lord CLEMENTS wished to caution the Noble Lord
opposite not to conclude hastily against the fa'rness of
the valuation adopted by his Noble Friend the Secretary
for Ireland. The valuation under the Poor-law was,
in every case, exceedingly low. The complaints of the
Noble Lord might have been justified if his Noble
Friend bad adopted the valuation of the Ordnance, which,
on the other band, was almost invariably above the
rent. It was certainly so in the county with which he
(Lord Clements) was connected. Those persons, there-
fore, who might seem by the one system to have perjured
themselves, might by the other have a sufficient interest
in their farms. He would also tell the Noble Lord, be did
not know whether it was his fault or that of his unpopu-
larity in Ireland, but it was a fact that a Bill emanating
from him, no matter what were its provisions, was looked
upon with distrust in that country.—( Laughter from the
Opposition benches.) Hon. Gentleman opposite might
laugh, but he assured them that he expressed the general
feeling in Ireland.

Mrr WARD thought Le bad the pleasure of hearing
the Noble Lord ( Stanley) say he left his Bill with con-
fidence to the good sen►e of those within and without the
House, and he added that there was a strong feeling in
Ireland in favour of it. Now it appeared to him that the
Noble Lord's Bill was by no means an honest one, for it
did not meddle with the franchise, it did not attempt to
grapple with that difficulty, from which all these other
difficulties had arisen. It appeared to him that sooner or
later the question must be settled in the way proposed by
the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland; anal it ap-
peared to him, with every respect to the Noble Lord op-
posite, that his remedy was worse than the disease.
Mr. LITTON could assert, from a very general know-
ledge of Ireland, that the Bill of the Noble Lord near
him had been received by all the respectable and influen-
tial classes in Ireland as a useful Bill, and one which was
likely to meet the demoralizing system which bad so long
existed from the mode of registration in Ireland. Ile
believed, however, that the lower classes looked with re.
gret at the passing of the measure. Those who thought
that intelligence and property ought to be represented—
those who thought that agitation and mob popularity should
be put down, would support the Bill of the Noble Lord
near him. It appeared to him that the Bill of the Noble
Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, was about to grant them
nothing short of universal suffrage. Ile confessed that he
would rather have universal suffrage than that Bill, be-
cause it conferred the franchise upon every pauper in the
country.—( Hear, hear.) He repeated that ho would pre-
fer universal suffrage, for then they would have things
called by their right names. He was satisfied that it
would completely swallow the independent constituency of
Ireland.

The O'CONNOR DON said that as far as his per-
sonal observation went, all classes in Ireland, both respect-
able and humble were opposed to the Bill of the Noble
Lord, the Member for North Lancashire,; and he hailed
with great pleasure the introduction of such a measure as
that which had just been announced by the Noble Lord
near him.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
RAILWAYS.
Mr. LABOUCHE RE said, although the Bill which
he intended to ask of the House permission to introduce
related to a subject of equal difficulty and importance, he
should not feel it incumbent on him to occupy the atten-
tion of the House at any length on the present occasion.
The object of the Bill which he sought leave to bring in
was to provide increased security for the public. 'rho
House would agree with him, from the returns that had
been laid on the table, it was incumbent ou the Govern-
ment to consider whether by any interference on their part
they could by any means alleviate the recurrence of those
appalling accidents which had created so much alarm in the
public mind, and if it appeared to the Government that inter-
ference on their part would have a tendency to effect that ob-
ject, he thought they were fully justified in bringing forward a
measure on the subject. These accidents naturally be-
came the subject of very minute investigation by persons
connected with the Government Railway departmendte, and
the measure he now proposed to introduce was founoadwas
the recommendation of that department. The Report detail
now in the hands of Hon. Members, and it wouldunds
upon
much more fully and ably than he could the
which his measure was lxesed.
the
House the main provisions of the 13111,
tate
increase the safety
ob-
serve that its sole object was directed toln ,
was wouldto
of railroad travelling. Undoubtedly therer
iwlionu,l.adnidiogbworos
great risk
ment they might be increasing
that by injudicious interference on thevii?la t(oifiethaer)—Goivtewrna-s
mainlyfr m the
upon
.Directors
them
desirablethat that
responsibilityey s oh.ja
of noth
m must
tktehr
eaeseteeiy•
province, do that which the Government —that they should not, by minuteheinGteorvfeerrenninceenlveitohultdhedior
particular
very inadequately, and e:hich those_ who wcret the guardians
of the safety of the public must know much better how to
do. But after commumicating with the Directors, and
finding that there were some points on which the Govern-
' mcnt could interfere with advantage, he felt that he would
not be doing his duty if he did not ask the House for leave
to bring in a Bill on the subject. There was a great deal
of exaggeration with regard to the number of accidents,
for the tact was that there was no conve)anee so safe in
proportion to the number of passengers. It was not sur-
prising, however, consith2ring the dreadful nature of these
accidents, that they should produce a great shock upon the
public mind, and it watt desirable that the public should be
satisfied that the Government was using its best exertions

EVENING EDITIONo S li
.....
to diminish as far as possible the probability of ac 3-:::77.aee krssi
dents on railways.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He a.X.17::•1,er.'"„-e—t------
already said that the number of accidents in compar 43:fi.,-.; 7-,'
r
with the numbers travelling was very small. 1t4,41
looking at the Report of the Directors as to the catiikeyt,,:-
these accidents, it was evident that they might be verle:',\‘'
much diminished by some simp
c-: /A "4
le regulations, and thereliye;leess e
render travelling by railway still more secure. The diffi- e,r.atc rits'el -
culty on the subject, in his view, was, that, although he
acknowledged the interference of the Government Board
should be restricted within very narrow limits—although ho
acknowledged that that interference should be exercised
with the greatest possible caution, yet he had found, after
due consideration, that it would be necessary to ask Parlia-
ment, or the department with which he had the honour to
be connected, for powers of a very general nature, and to
take upon himself the responsibility of applying that power
with proper caution. Honourable Gentlemen might be
alarmed at seeing in the Bill very large powers,
but he could not at that time explain his reason
so well as by reading sin extract from a Report which he
held in his hand :—" With regard to the nature and ex-
tent of these powers, the proper distinction appears to us
to be that the Government should not attempt to interfere
in questions of an experimental nature, which arc still sub-
jects of discussion, and admit of a fair difference of opi-
nion among practical men; nor should it attempt to regu-
late matters of detail, so as to take tho management of
railways out of the hands of the parties immediately re-
sponsible, namely, the directors end their officers." An-
other point to which the Report referred was of some im-
portance :—" But with regard to other points, such as the
propriety of introducing upon every railway such arrange-
menis respecting time tables and signals as experience has
shown to be necessary for preventing collision; of estab-
lishing a proper and uniform code of regulations for en.
gine drivers, guards, and other servants placed in a re-
sponsible situation ; and for maintaining strict discipline ;
and generally, of introducing upon all railways whatever
has been adopted and proved to be conducive to safety, by
the practice of those which are considered to be the best
conducted, no difference of opinion can exist ; and if the
principle of Government supervision be admitted at all, it
cannot find a more legitimate field for its exercise." Now
the trains were worked altogether by time tables; but it
was found upon examination that that obvious protection
was neglected on several railways-4 Hear, hear)—and he
did think that a power to make these tables might
be safely entrusted to the Government Board. Upon
inquiry, it had been found that the principle had been
adopted an all great lines of railway. He would mention
another provision of the Bill. On almost all lines of rail-
way a particular signal denoted danger, namely, a red
light; but some lines substituted another signal. An en-
gineer, therefore, going from one line to another got
confused, and was likely to make a fatal mistake. He
thought these were instances in which the Government
Board might safely be trusted with the enforcement of
general regulations. In asking the House to give him
those extensive powers, he was quite ready to adknow-
ledge that they ought to be exercised with the greatest
caution, and with as little interference as possible with the
regulations of the railways. But some central authority
to make general regulations, and to exercise a general
superintendence, was essential. (Hear, hear, hear.)
Another feature in the Bill was, that all the engine-drivers
should be licensed, and it did seem to him rather anoma-
lous that while they required a man driving a vehicle in
the streets to be licensed, that the engine-driver of a rail-
way, whose want of sobriety or misconduct might put in
danger the lives of a great many persons, were not re-
quired to have one. He proposed, therefore, that the li-
censing system should be established, and that no engine-
driver should be employed without a regular license ; that
a registry should be kept, and that for any misconduct
he should be deprived of his license. It appeared to him
that that would be un important check to the employment
of unfit persons, and diminish the number of accidents. If
they looked at the return in the Report of the causes of
accidents, they would find them frequently originating in the
gross misconduct of the driver; nay, that a man turned
off one line for misconduct, had been taken upon
another, and employed, when his misconduct led to the
most appalling results. There were other provisions in
the Bill of less importance. As he bad said before,
there were various suggestions in the papers laid on
the table, which he imagined the Government might ad-
vantageously adopt ; but when he recollected that in the
last Session the House thought it injudicious that the
Government should have too extensive powers, which
might be used for inquisitorial purposes, he thought it
judicious to confine tire measure to the points to which
he had already referred. The Right Hon. Gentleman
concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill for the
better regulation of railways.
Colonel SIBTHORP did not rise to oppose the intro-
duction of the Bill. It was well known that he was a
great opposer of railroads from their earliest commence-
ment. He had always looked upon them as measures
of public fraud and private robbery—as schemes based
upon no principle of honesty, or feeling, or huma-
nity—as schemes of idle speculation and gambling in
the extreme. The returns were altogether incom-
plete, and he thought that they ought to have an
official return of all the accidents on railways. The
Hon. Gentleman referred to the great number of
accidents that were so frequently occurring on railroads,
and mentioned that on one line of railway four men had
been lately very much injured; and on that, as upon all
such occasions, the Directors of the line contented them-
selves with merely expressing their regret that such acci-
dents had occurred, but there was nothing said about pre-
venting the recurrence of them.

~~~;.~;
4

Mr. EWA RT said that his Right Hon. Friend, the Pre-
sident of the Board of Trade, had drawn a judicious dis-
tinction in introducing that Bill, by making the principle
of it a principle of centralization regarding railways, and
not one of interference. If they would centralize all the
information possible, and consolidate it in one code, and
do so without interference, they would leave to the public
all the advantages and accommodations derivable from rail-
ways. It was admitted, he knew not whether the Hon.
and Gallant Colonel admitted it, but if he ever read so
orthodox a work as the Quarterly Review, he would see
it there most undeniably proved, that the number of acci-
dents on railroads was infinitely smaller than that which it
was known took place on stage coaches. He ( Mr.
Ewart) would now say what had been some time
ago observed by the Honourable and Gallant Colonel.
that facts were stubborn things. He (Mr. Ewart)
was for giving such powers as would render the
acts of the Railway Commissioners not abortive of,
but productive of, some good effect. His Right Hon.
Friend had alluded to the system of licenses. He (Mr.
Ewart) hoped that it would be found to succeed, but ho
had some doubt as to whether the system of licensing was
necessary. They all knew that the system of stage-coaches
was admirably conducted—to be sure, the number of acci-
dents that occurred on them was more numerous than that
which took place on railways, but yet they were admirably
conducted, and that without licences. He, then, had his
doubts as to whether licences were so indispensably neces-
sary. There was another recommendation of the Com-
missioners, respecting the information that should be given
in cases of serious accident or injury being sustained by
persons. Now there were occasions where information
was desirable to the public in cases of accident, even
where they were not attended with serious injury. He
also acquiesced, though he confessed he had something to
do with railroads, in the suggestion that the Commis-
sioners should get notice before a railway was
opened, so that it might be teen that no danger was
likely to be ircurred on these new lines by
the public. Those were powers demanded by the
public, and to which no reasonable railway company could
refuse to assent. It was also required that acts of inter-
ference be submitted to Parliament before being adopted.
Without that he thought that there might be some danger
soif
otnocorig.
eaawoeuxltdenvseionn ofture tth
oe
call powersth of the Commis-
eetteotionofte
House to the fact that those railways are the best which
are the longest established. On the Liverpool and Man.
chester Railway an accident seldom or never occurred, and
on the Liverpool and Birmingham Railway accidents oc-
curred just as seldom. On the Grand Junction Railway
near half a million of persons were conveyed within the
last year, and there was scarcely arty accident. He was
convinced that in all public undertakings emanating from
private individuals, success was owing to a free compotia
tion being allowed, to the absence of interference, and of
intermeddling on the part of the Government. He was
glad that the measure proposed to be introduced was sim-
ply one of regulation, and not of interference.
Lord STANLEY said that, indeed, he thought from
the manner of his Hon. Friend, in introducing that Bill
that he feared it would be opposed by Hen. Gentlemen
on that side of the House, for he directed the whole of
his arguments to lion. Gentlemen on his side of the
House. lie ( Lord Stanley) hoped that it would
be some consolation to his Hon. and Gallant Friend
behind him (Colonel Sibthorp) in proportion as there
was more traffic on railroads, and as they ipc
useful, almost in the same proportion wasae
alllla 4
by proper precautions being adopted,
would be brought
.me
more
angerihv aytso
life and property diminished. He bad no doubt ,
two which had
to a state of equal security withl
those
bbeoetninmtheentilonneeadntm
bioytheit
r ebutcontrol
too
frequentlyu ye r
rail-
roads
was of G greatentemimportancethat the
Governmentio their s hould e vigilant
infancy,
Railroads
e
unsafe that they should be so.
opened at a time when it was
there • •
that on one railroad was a positive
He had been told
o,missioners that it was not fit to be
report of the
rc iws ds
the principle thatrailroads
must be
zlipornaeftaieraiamviogniolapnotyc,oanntdrotlhebreeifnugre thereexe
en-
tirely concurred
opened. and notwithstanding they had opened it. He
every pis
by the public for their protection. As he was on his legs
he would put a question to his Right Ilon. Friend
more or
the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the subject of
directions that are note given for the carrying of letters by
railway. The Noble Lord then proceeded to state that
on a late occasion, when travelling by the Southampton
Railroad in the mail tram, he had been detained
at one of
the stations an hour and a quarter while waiting for the
other mail trains from various directions to come up, and
adverted at some length on the great inconvenience and
danger to which passengers were thus subjected, and con-
cluded by asking what were the instructions given by the
General Post-office, relative to the carriage of the mails
by railways, and hoped that no regulations were given such
as would cause the detention of the mail train an hour and
three quarters.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER raid.
that any directions that were given upon the subject to
the Noble Lord referred, were general, and rested
with the Direewrs of the Railroad. The mail-trains were
engaged by Government, and they paid a large aura for
the conveyance of the inaik by them, and it was for the
purpose of bringing the mail and not of carrying passen-
gers that they
were engaged. Passengers, thon, who travel
by these trains should be prepared for whatever inconve-
niences they might be exposed to, and with regard to the
danger that had been spoken of, there svis no ground of
apprehension
on that score as there were no trains on the
line immediately before or after the mail-train.
Lord
.STANLEY said that the Right Hon. Gentle.
men must reeollect that. after having w'''aited an hour and
e,oifllls'ewati'nirtirelemaut
itbmyt,lette,h
emi
npacai
olsnsfevo r which they
tdv,h,aernregee
rq t.aar detained.st,erhs
e, ttlti
Aeoyut
gs set
thht t
ne gn jeer's' edeuraiagnd

~~:.; i