The Sun.
London, England, 1847-05-01 00:00:00

TURnAV EVENTNG. MAY l. 447.

urn orig inelly voted, which had not as yet been di sense
of. They had found that none of the works were so ad-
vantageous ai those which came under the head of
fishery, piers, and harbours, for they not oely employed
the people, but they directly increased the supply of
food. As nothing, therefore, in the nature of public
works has to en found so directly beneficial as the reot.ey
• expended under this head, they proposed to give another
advance for that , purpo'se.—(llFir.' liar.) The)
proposed to advant4 to the Upper Shannon improve-
ment 10,0001. There would then remain a sum of
40,0001. at the disposal of the House, and it
was his opinion that one of the most desirable
means of employing. that money was in the
encouragement of the fisheries in Ireland. The whole
it was now proposed hhould be
of
fthis
directed
bum
to f
the 4fio,h, piers, and harbours of Ireland.
Such was the subject of the second resolution which he
had to propose:—" That the Commissioners of her
ooeorOtel. ,
s,
Majesty's Treasury be authorised to direct advances to
be made, out of the Consolidated Fund of the United
Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, to the Commis-
sioners for the issue of loans for public works and
fisheries, &c., to an amount not exceeding 620,000/. in
the whole, to be by them advanced towards defraying
the expense of making the following railways in Ireland,
viz.:—The Great Southern and Western Railway, the
Waterford and Kilkenny Railway, and the Dublin and
Drogheda Railway. And that a sum of 40,0001. should
be divided for the purpose of promoting fisheries, piers,
and harbours in Ireland."
The resolution was then put from the chair.
Mr. GOLTLBURN was surprised to hear the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer state that it was the intention
of the Government to withdraw the funds which had
been voted for the purpose of reclaiming the waste lands
of Ireland. He was happy to hear that the panic in the
money market had subsided, and that the Bank was now
enabled to afford every necessary accommodation. Li„
quite agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet, the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer, that it was highly desirable that
the Bank should act with prudence. lie thought that
not only the Bank, but also the House was called upon
to act with prudence. And it was because he thought
so, that he felt it necessary to make a few remarks on
the resolution submitted to the House, in order that the
House might, by being forewarned, be also forearmed.—
(Hear, hear.) - The Right Hon. Baronet had said
that the sum of 625,0002, to be advanced to three
railway companies in Ireland would be advanced out of
the general fund raised by loan for the general relief of
the distress of Ireland. He thought if such a course
were to be adopted great inconvenience would result.
There was nothing that the House should guard more
against than an augmentation of the charges upon the
Consolidated Fund, because the effect of those charges
would be nececsarily to lower the balances in the Ex-
chequer, and increase in the same proportion the amount
of the quarterly deficiency bills ; and the Bank having to
meet this increased demand upon it, would be unable to
afford that assistance which was needed for the interests
of the general trade and commerce of the country.—
(Hear, hear.) There was also another point of diffi-
culty in making grants to these railways, which was,
that having afforded assistance to these companies, how

could the Government refuse similar assistance to others.

These companies, it appeared, required to borrow
1,000,0001. of money, they would have to go into the
market, and perhaps borrow it at the rate of S per cent.,
but the Government slipped in and said they would lend
them half of that sum at 5 per cent.; the company were
thus enabled to borrow its million at an average of 6i
per cent., while a rival company, not having the assistance
of tLe Government, would be compelled to pay the full
8 per cent. Besides, this company having succeeded in
obtaining half of their money at 5 per cent., could afford
to pay more than its rival company for the remaining
half, which they might require; and they would thereby
obtain an undue and unfair advantige over their com-
petitors. It appeared to him that great caution and
prudence were necessary in measures of this kind, and
unless great determination be shown by the Govern-
ment in refusing applicants for similar advances, the
most serious evils would be certain to be the conse-
quence. He thought that, although the panic was over-
rated, and although it was true that the country was in
a prosperous condition, yet he saw enough to induce
him to call upon the Government to proceed with pru-
dence in future. The country was in a state, for which
no antecedent period showed a parallel. One of the
greatest calamities that ever happened, was now press-
ing upon the country, and not only on this country,
but every other nation in Europe. Added to this,
there was another matter which added to their difficul-
ties, and called upon them for extraordinary caution.
There was the railway system, which greatly affected
the capital of the country, and locked it up in that in-
vestment which for a considerable period made no re-
turn. There could be no doubt that the capital of last
year's railway had not yet affected the floating capital
of the country so much as would be felt in future. The
scarcity of food, also increased the necessity of import,
and greatly aggravated the difficulties under which the
country was labouring. There was, besides, the defi-
ciency of the cotton crop, which should be added to
the pressure from other sources on the energies of the
country. It was, therefore, upon all these considerations,
that he was induced to call upon the Government to
proceed with great caution in dealing with the monetary
affairs of the country. Already a large amount of
money had been advanced to Ireland, and it he might
calculate on the futur'-, the money which had been ad-
vanced would be insufficient to meet the exigencies of
the case. The expenses of the country were increased.
In January last, there was a balance in the Exchequer
of nine millions; and now, in April, there were but live;
and if this balance was to go on decreasing it would be
necessary for the Government to draw upon the Bank,
and so disable it from applying its capital to the accom-
modation of the commerce and trade of the country. He
wished to explain that in pointing out these dangers his
ofject was not to embarass the Government, but to in-
culcate the necessity of timely prudence and the utmost
caution.—(Hear, hear.)

Mr. F. FRENCH saw no reason why money should
; not be giv,,n to other railways, as well as the three which
had been selected, provided sufficient security was given
I for the loan. According to the Right on. Gentleman,
there would not be more than 280,000 men employed on
the public works in Ireland after the Ist May. With
respect to the works on which the men had been em-
ployed, he understood it would take 3} millions to
complete them. He denied the statement which had
been made, that private labour absorbed those labourers
who were dismissed from the public works. Tne middle
class in Ireland were rapidly leaving the country, for
the gentry were unable to give them employment. Ile
would like to know if the expenses of the pesti
lence which was now raging in Ireland,
was included in the 8,000,0001. which had
been stated as the money to be advanced ?
The Hon. Gentleman then read a number of extract-,
setting forth the great increase of fever in Ireland. In
Sligo fever had extended to the main streets, and it had
committed the most dreadful ravages in Fermanagh,
Waterford, Dungarvan, Armagh, and Cork, where
thirty-six bodies had been buried in one grave, end 320
euffios had been sold for the poor, in St. Nicholas parish,
in a few days ; one hospital was filled constantly, four
persons with surgeons' certificates having been obliged
to be left at the door, and more presented
,themselves
for admission in the morning. He hoped, however, that
the money proposed to he advanced would not form a
part of the loan of 8,000,0001.
Mr. M. GORE was strongly in favour of the measure.
Ireland had got mineral resources, which only required
the aid of capital to develope, and as private interference
had been discouraged, it was the bounden duty of the
State to step forward and to afford a stimulus to the
employment of the unemployed in profitable labour like
railways. In England they had voted m..ney for the
draining of the fens, and it was but right that such
assistance should be extended to Ireland when so much
good would be accomplished by so doing. Ireland was
a great expense to this country. Fur instance, the
keeping up of a large staff of soldiers and police, but
what a vast sum of money would be saved it troops
could be removed from place to place by railway. lie
quoted the opii ion of the Governor-General of India, to
show that in India 60,0001. a year would be saved it
troops could be conveyed by railway in India; and it
this was practicable in India, how much more su would
it be in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the
argument that agricultural districts Ir,uld not defray the
expense of constructing lines, he instanced the South-
ampton and Peterborough Railway, which traversed a
purely agricultural district, as profitable speculati .n.
He also quoted the opinion of Mr. Petri, the large con-
troctor, who had had great experience in the construction
of railways, not only in this country, but in Franca and
Belgium, to show that agricultural railways invariably
turned out profitable ; end it was, therefore, not too
much to expect that the resources of Ireland would be
developed by railways in like manner. They would
tend also to increase and render more valuable the
excellent fisheries of Ireland. The Hon. Gentleman
read an extract from a work by Mr. Macculloch.
to show that fisheries were materially improved by
railways; and also one of the letters of Mr. Foster, the
Times Commissioner, in favour of the construction of
piers and harbours for the promotion of fisheries. They
would enable men to go easily out to sea, and, therefore,
he thought they would do better by spending money in
giving them those facilities, instead of spending money
in feeding them in idleness, or at unprofitable tasks.—
(Hear, hear.) Dr. Rush, the clergyman of Caddar, in
the neighbourhood of Galway, strongly urged, in a
letter, the construction of piers and harbours, and the
construction of curing stations.
The Government de-
served the greatest praise fer the proposed construction
of those curing stations. Dr. Rush, by the aid of aims
benevolent persons, had been enabled to send several men
out to sea, and the fish they had taken was worth 8001.,
and it was eagerly bought up by persons about
the place. 7 (tlear, hear.) therefore, it could not be
said that the Irish were wanting in energy, and were
afraid to brave the elements in order to obtain their
living by severe toil.—(liestr, hear.) They only stood
in need of the means to enable them to work for their
living. And there was nothing in the condition of Ireland
which was worse than other countries at a former period.
p
For instance, Scotland and Wales, had been at former
periods in a most distressed state, so much so ant bothy.
ith
life and property were laced in continual jeopar
Spencer was of Opinion in his day, that the evils of
Ireland sprung from a want of wise legistation; it
was unfortunate that such a lengthened period should
have elapsed without a better and wiser system having
been adopted. He looked however on the present
measures as a step in the right direction, and it was for
this, and the other reasons which he had urged, that he
would vote for the measure of her Majesty's Govern-
ment. He hoped to see the day when Ireland would be
a blessing and a safeguard to England, and when they
should reap a rich harvest for the steps which they were
then about to take.
Mr. W. COLLETT said that
he did not regret not
having been able to address the [;oust' upon the peevious
occasion, when the House entered into a discussion on
the principles of the Bill, as his Noble Friend, the
Member for Lynn, had fully
argued the question,
and left nothing further to be advanced.

The principal objection which was then urged
against his Noble Friend, was the impossibility
of securing the money to be lent; that, however, had
been admitted by the Chanceiler of the Exchequer as
easy of accomplishment; here, then, was the principal,
and almost the only argument which was strongly urged
againstlit annihilated. It had also been admitted that t-e
Exchequer Loan. Commissioners could lend a sum of
20,0001., this had been denied on the former occasion.
The Hon. Gentleman concluded, by saying he would
support the Bill.
Mr. CAYLEY, believing that the present was a
statesmanlike measure, he could not withhold his sup-
port from the Government measure. From the turn
which the debate had taken, it appeared to him the com-
mercial state of the country was the roal question which
they were now debating, and whether the bank charter
of 1844 had really answered its purpose—that purpose
wa% threefold—first, that the Bank should maintain its
credit untainted ; secondly, that its stability should he
ensured ; and thirdly, that the country should
not be exposed to this monetary fluctuation,
which of late had occasioned so much alarm.
lie asked the country what had been the state of the
banking department of the Bank of England. He feared
that it was not in so flourishing a state as it was thought.
Ruinous fluctuations took place in trade, and instead of
improving, the banking department became worse. No
doubt the framers of the Act would be very glad to
throw aspersions upon the Bank of England, and he con-
fessed that he thought his Right Hon. Friend had not
dealt fairly with them on the subject. His Right Hon.
Friend said that the alarm which was felt in the country
was unnecessary. and that there was plenty of money in
the country. He thought that the causes of the depres-
sion which existed in the country had not been fairly
appreciated. The country had seen at a critical moment
that the Bank was compelled to go into the
market to supply the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
and they naturally became alarmed at the
circumstance. Immediately. succeeding that, when
the Bank refused all discount, was not that sufficient to
create alarm? What was the consequence? Every-
body who had a note determined to keep that note.
Out of what was the four millions which had been
taken, supplied? Was it out of the notes of the public
or the notes of reserve ? It was evident, that if the
till of the Bank was supplied out of the notes of reserve,
that the reserve itself must be shaken. The Bank never
before refused discount, and was not that sufficient to
shake the confidence of the mercantile interest in the
country? and that he believed to be the cause of the

panic Which had existed. If there were, as it was said,
fourteen millions in reserve in the Bank of England,
and only seven or eight millions in circulation, was it
not a bad system which, by keeping so much money idle
should checl the individualoperations of the country. His
Right Hon. Friend blamed the Bank for this. Was it
only upon the Bank that this evil should be charged ?
The system was one which. like Midas, in the midst of
gold, produced starvation. With every deference to his
Right Hon Friend's superior information, it appeared to
him that the Bank was not to blame, but that it had
skilfully managed most difficult and complicated machi-
nery. In August 1846, the Bank had a maximum of
bullion, and according to kis Right Hon. Friend, the
Bank ought to have lowered the rate of discount. The
Bank did so, and pushed out 21,000,0001., but in strict
accordance with the system professed by his Right Hon.
Friend, it ought to have pushed out 26,000,0001. The
Bank did not do so, and acted most wisely in not going
to that extent in sending out its money through the
country. It had gone as far as it could in prudence
with the system, but it exercised a very wise
discretion in not going too far. What was the condi-
tion of the Bank of France, the state of trade at the
time, and the state of the people ? The Bank, in all
probability, prevented a very serious evil at the time.
The question which they had to discuss was, which was
right ? The Bank or the system. If the Bank had in
1846 pushed out more notes, the state of the country,
instead of being sound at present, would have been the
very reverse. In the spring of this year, when the sys-
tem called fur the Bank to apply the screw, the Bank
acted upon a contrary principle, and again proved that
its discretion was more, to be trusted to than the system
which was to be pursued under the Act, He thought,
after all these examples, that it was but fair to infer
that it was the system which had failed, and
not the Bank. In the present depression of
all trade in the City—when East India Bills were, in
some instances, undiscountable—or only discountable at
16 per cent., when the ordinary bills of commerce were
virtually not to be discounted, and when all credit was
suspended, the effects of this sound system were found,
out, and if such were the effects of this sound system he
could only say that the sooner they returned to the old
and unsound system the better.—(Cheers.)
After a few words from Mr. CHAPLIN, in support of
the measure, _

Sir W. CLAY said that his Right Hon. Friend had
stated that in September last the Bank ought to have
pushed out its notes, and reduced its discount to two
per cent. That would have been bad banking to force
out money, and thus encourage careless spe._adation.
His Right Hon. Friend had, however, defended the
conduct of the Bank during the present year, when
there was a drain of money and bullion, the
Bank had not increased its rate of discount, so
that as far as his Right Honourable Friend's
defence of the Bank went it was of no value.
In the year 1846 the imports were very great; showing
a considerable excess over the importation of 1845. As
far as the Custom House could afford any guide to the
amount, the imports in 1845 were about 20,000.000/. ; while
in 1846 they were 21,840,0001. The same was observable
in the importation of the raw material of our manufac-
tures in the same year; fur while articles of food had
greatly increased, the articles of raw material had di-
minished. This year sgAin, there wou'd be a v(-r) large
excess of imports, although, no doubt, that ultimately
orders would come for goods, and the exports would be
equalised to the imports. Still, in the mean time the
exchange must be balanced by specie. No other plan
of meeting the difficulty would suffice. Neither a pure
gold currency nor an issue of notes would have avoided
the rise of prices and the state of things to which he
had referred. Notwithstanding all that had been said
about the measure of 1844, he was persuaded, had it not
been passed this country would not have been so well able
to meet the crisis as it was, and when it came it would
have lasted much longer. He maintained the soundness
of the measure of 1819, the object of which was simrly
to provide for the convertibility of paper into gold at any
time when it might be required. He believed that the
Bill of 1844, which regulated the issues of paper in pro-
portion to the gold held by the banks, had induced a
more healthy system of banking and business, and the
country was in a far better condition in many respects
than it would otherwise have been. The operation of
this measure ought not to be charged with the present
state of the money market, but rather they should attri-
bute the crisis to the great imports of provisions which
had taken place in the last two years, and the eitensive
application of the wealth of the country to the purpose
of railway construction. He believed that they would
with caution get out of their present difficulty, though
he did not expect for a long time that they would be able
to procure money at such a low interest as it had been
obtained for some time past. He had been anxious thus
far to trespass on the House to state his views of the real
cause of the present state of their monetary system.
Mr. ROEBUCK said the proposition they had before
them, was to grant a sum of 620,000/. for the construc-
tion of Irish railways. Several Hon. Members had
spoken on the currency and the state of trade, but no
one seemed to enter into the real question before the
House. The Hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets had
made an excellent speech on the state of the money
mark, t, and the causes which had led to it, and here
was the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, proposing to aggravate the evil, and
to
further derange the monetary market by advancing this
large sum of money. It was a course most impolitic and
unjust, not only to the people of this country, , but the
other parties in Ireland, who were not to participate in
the grant. He had certainly been much surprised at the
speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for
the University of Cambridge, who, while he had
spoken decidedly against the appropriation of the money,
still meant to vote for it. He was desirous, however,
that it should be taken out of the eight millions already
voted for Ireland. Now, when the Right Hon. the
Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed that 620,000/
should be deducted from the eight millions that were
originally voted for the relief of the people of Ireland,
he should like to know what were the different circum-
stances in the state of that country, and in the intensity
of the distress, that warranted him in making that
diversion. But supposing the Right Hon. Baronet spoke
in this way. (The Hon. Member for Bath here read a
long extract from the speech of the Right Hon.
the Chancellor of the Exchequer on proposing the
grant of eight millions for the relief of distress in Ireland.)
Ho believed that there was nothing to justify the princi-
pl.: laid down in the proposition of the Right Hon.
Gentleman, as they did not know what the harvest
might bring forth, he thought it was sacrificing all that
was just and right and honourable to a false expediency
to accede to this proposition. He felt himself called
upon to divide the Committee upon this question, for he
did not think that which had been hardly won by the
intelligence, and by the sweat of the Englishman's brow,
should be frittered away in this idle and unthinking
manner.

Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE said that he fully
sympathised in the difficult and embarrassing
circumstances in which the Government were placed.
Something, he thought, was wanting in grasp of
thought, but no one would deny that, the measures of the
Ministry were founded on good intentions, however de-
ficient they might be in wisdom. The poor-law had
been passed as a measure calculated to improve the
social co.idition of Ireland. But what were the other
measures that were required to carry that previous mea-
sure into effect ? Was this 620,000/. to be the maximum
of assistance that was to be given to that unhappy coun-
try ? But it was said that 1,500,0001. had been voted to
improve the lands of Ireland. True, one million and a
half was given to the Irish landlords,
Mr. F. FRENCH—Not given, lent.
Mr. B. OSBORNE.—The lion. Member need not
Utley such extreme susceptibility.—(Laughter.) This
money then was given—no, lent—(Laughter)—to the
landlords of the country, for the improvement of land
and the employment of agricultural labourers. Why
the improvement of land necessarily led to the discou-
ragement of labour.—(No, no.) Would any one deny'
that whereas, there were only four or five labourers em-
ployed on each hundred acres of Kell cultivated land in
England or Scotland, they in Ireland employed some-
times four or five times that number. He doubted much
that the Right Hon. the Chanceller of the Exchequer
' was no farmer. He told the House that there was an
abundance of potatoes in the country, and that the green
crops were laid &win. If sovereigns were not more plen-
tiful than potati Ts, the finance of the country would be in a
deplorable suite ; he said that the green crops were on
the ground. Why, the period for sowing tui nips was in
June. They were rated for the soup kitchens, and as
he had received, perhaps, one of the first copies of that
rate, he should favour the House with it. The soup-

-e7e-ereaseeeeee.-- see—
rate then in the union of Clonmel, fur three months, was
estimated at 8,3401., and it would yield, if paid, 8,975/. In
adopting that calculation fur the rating of all the unions,
he found that the gross amount would be 4,752,0001.
This was to be raised fur soup kitchens. What would
the poer-law come to ? Avereesing the rate as 4s, 61.
in the pound, the total cost i-f out.deor relief weirlit
amount to 7,000.000/ S%‘ven rniJions ei nemey ! Why,
it amounted to the whole grol.s rental of Ireland. They
had arrived at this state of things that tie measure
would be impracticable in itself, unless rereleied effee
tive by other large and comprehensive measures. Did
the Government, think that these 620,000/. would eneort,
the surplus labour o: Ireland ? Or did they think i:hat
Irish Members would rest sate-fled wite it ?—(Laughter
and cheers.) It was a lamentable proof of the state of
teeling in that House, that when Irish gentlemen rose to
place the distressed condition of their country before
the House, they were met by invidious cheering ;
620,000/. were lo be granted to the Great Southern and
Westerit Railway. He war not in sny way connected
with that company, but he was assured that this mode
of laying out their money would be productive the
best results. He wont:4 just teed to the House the
weekly return of traffic made up to the last week. The
House would remember that the line was only com-
pleted for fifty- Nix miles and a-half of' its length, and
that, in its route it embraced no commercial Lewes, or
any manufacturing district, for as yet it only connected
Dunlin and Carlow. He found,. however, that the tratlic
for the last week was 1,5881. He regretted that when
the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn brought forward
his railway measure in the early part of the session,
that the Noble Lord at the head of the Government al-
lowed party pride to influence him in his supposition to it.
The whole remedy accrued to amount to this, and it was
feared that the whole of the tenant farmers were likely to
be eaten up, and the process seemed to be very likely to
be soon finished—(Laughter)—and to some it appeared
that this was a circumstance devoutly to be wished.—
(Hear, hear.) But what would become of the country
when it was overloaded with this Government debt. As
he understood, there was a rate now to be collected ot a
pound in the pound, and he had heard from an authority
on which he could depend, but whose name !!e was un-
willing to mention, that a rate of 13s. in the pound had
been levied, when a rate of tenpence could not be col
lected—(Hear, hear.) Why, what man with a good ac-
count at his banker's; would ever think of drawing out
his resources for tire sake of purchasing Irish property.
For his own part, he thought that there would be very
few. He had never been a party, either in the House
or nut of it, to the cry against the present Government,
or to swelling the clamour on the other side of the water,
and unwilling as he was to connect himself with any
party in the State, he would give his earnest support
to the Noble Lord, if the Government were willing to
look this Irish difficulty in the face. He would honestly
and heartily render his support. The country had
hitherto been governed by the Protestant Irish aristo-
cracy, but that system could no longer be supported, and
they must turn to the democracy if they wished to im-
prove it. For his own part, he believed that the only re-
medy was to be found in a separate legislation. although
he was one of the last to say that Ireland could exist
without the assistance of England, for, unless that as-
sistance was held out, he believed that Ireland might as
well be sunk to the bottom of the sea. But yet, although
he was no advocate for the severance of the countries,
the only remedy, in his opinion, was in the institution of
a domestic legislation.—(Cheers.)
Mr. SPOONER regretted that the Hon. Member who
had just sat down, had started with the assurance that
he would keep to the point, when he had spoken upon
every subject but the one which was immediately before
the House. The Hon. Gentleman had complained that the
whole of the present pressure was owing to the course
which the Bank of England had pursued in the manage-
ment of their capital, and great reference had been made
to the lean of the 8,000,0001., as if that had been any
particular element in the suffering which had been en.
dured of late by all the commercial clews. But what
was the case ? Why, the Bank, in the granting of their
last charter, had been expressly charged to keep to their
banking business, and were told that the issues could
only be made in a particular manner. On this point
they were expressly restricted. Well, they had kept to
their banking business, they had not attempted to inter-
fere with the circulation. The two departments were
entirely separate, and in his opinion the directors had
acted wisely. They had not overstepped the terms of
their charter,: and they touud that they had an abund-
ance of money in their coffers, and they had not hesitated
to cash the good commercial paper a hich was proffered
for their acceptance. They had conferred a great benefit
on the whole of the community, and bad only acted as
every other banker would have done. But gold went
out of the country, and the specie in the hands of
the Bank was reduced. The pressure ensued, but with
that the Bank had nothing to do ; but now, velen the
exchanges were in our favour, when the balance of
trade had turned, then there was a great outcry raised
respecting the conduct of the Bank. Let them look to
the balance of trade, and they would see that although
so much gold had gone out of the country, the influx ot
corn now would have to be paid for in goods.--(Hear,
hear.) The Hon. Member had alluded to the conduct Of
the Emperor of Russia, who, according to consonre
port, had bought 2,000,0001 in the British funds, and
hishe hpaadr part, eapsrseesretinntge d
thatit asi
tan w
aact l
iokfogyrteoa
improvemagnanimity
the.
stateon
of
thet the
sameßritish
way
funds.
co m e Theto the
assistance Emperor of Russia
n
had
Bank u os ft
in'
France. But was that an act of magnanimity ? They
all knew his character, and that ambition formed a
striking feature in it, and must therefore be assured that
some other object tharethat of merely assisting the Bank of
England had actuated him, even if this remark were true.
He would not insinuate improper motives to that foreign
power, but the Emperor of Russia might have an inte-
rest in securing the subserviency of France or of Prussia,
through the medium of his great despotic influence ; not
so much with a view of attaining any great advantage
in either of these two counties, as to gain him sine in
fluence over England. The Emperor of Rteeia, it was
quite evident, could never hope to obtain any influence in
this country through his great military forces ; but be
might do so by maniseuvering with the finances ot
Europe ; and it was evident from the Emperor's
recent acts, that his policy was directed to the at-
tainment of that end. The Act of 1819 and
1844 must be got rid of before this country could
prosper, or avert such an evil as the one he had just
ventured to suggest. Already they were witnessing some
of the bad effects of those measures, and unless the
House took some precautionary steps to avert it, they
would inflict a still severer blow upon the country.. The
Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, it was
true, had supported those measures with a good deal of
plausibility, and had asked them for a definition of the
term pound, and used other specious arguments to in•
duce the House to pass les Currency Billle, but still be
(Mr. Spooner) wanted to know if the House was pre-
pared to continue a system which had always led, by
easy and regular steps, to periodical depression in th e
money and commercial intere st of the country.
Sir R. PEEL—WeII, what is a pound ?—(Hear and
laughter.)
Mr. SPOONER said, short though his experience had
been in that House, he had seen and heard enough to
convince him that the Right Hon. Baronet was too great
an adept, and ready at debating in that House, to render
it an easy task for an Hon. Member, like himself, to
grapple with him in a discussion of this sort ; but he
begged to ask the Right Hon. Baronet where Mr. Pitt
would have beer; when be came down to that House to ask
for their support during the war, if he had allowed
himself to be put down by parties who celled
upon him for a definition of the term pound. Well,
now, what was a pound ?—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
What was a pound at the time of the Reformation.—
(Hear, arid laughter.) Hon. Members might laugh,
but lie would tell them that the country could not long
sustain such panics as those they were now witnessing,
without, indeed, the whole frame-work of society were
suffered seriously to be disturbed, if not entirely
broken up.—(Hear, hear.) But the Right Honour-
able Gentleman had asked him what was a pound ?
He could not answer that question directly, but he
would tell the Right Hon. Baronet that the pound of the
present day greatly exceeded in value the pound which
existed at the time the 800,000,0001. of national debt
was contracted.—(Hear, hear.) He therefore warned
the House, in the words of the late Sir R. Peel, that if'
they persisted in continuing the present monetary
policy of the country, they would eventually bring
ruin and destruction upon the nation.—(Hear, heat.)
He never thought that the state of the currency prior to
the year 1819 was at all in a state of perfection. He
believed that the operation of the measure of 1844 would
prove a serious evil. There were at present many mer-
cantile houses in this country which were obliged to re-
fuse a great number of their orders, because they did
not know that they would be able to obtain gold for the
payment of the labourers. The consequence of the mea-
sure would be, that they would keep the gold in the
country, but they would starve the people.
Mr. MUNTZ would support the measure of the Go-
vernment upon the same ground as he would have sup-
ported the measure of the Noble Lord the Member tor
Lynn (Lord G. Bentinck), the only objection he had to
the grant was, that it was not large enough. It was
said that the finances of the country were in a bad
state. Why, it was the fault of the Government that
the finances were in that condition. He believed that
the Right Hon. Baronet did perfectly right in bringing
forward his measure of 1844; it was based upon a per-
fectly sound principle, and it was the fault of the Go-
vernment that when assistance was required for
Ireland they were to be met with an objection
respecting the finances of the country.—(Hear. hear.)
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL was glad to see that this
proposition had obtained so large a share of support,
and he thought if the Noble Lord opposite (Lord G.
Bentinck) bad made a less demand than four millions a
year for four years, when be introduced his plan for the
construction of railways in Ireland, that he would have
received much greater support than he did on that oc-
casion. The present motion proposed to give assistance
only to those railways which had paid up half of the
capital, and which were, therefore, of a bona fide
character, and he was of opinion that it would
have effected a great ,deal of good, in •
employment and mitigating the distress givi'ng
nwehigichhbouthrehoncdounntfrymattitinwpresthenerte laboured. In
sons at present employed in the Southern andii
101
to%tiNomlrneuastuptiet'oe.hrernnfr?
Railway, and there could be no doubt that it assistance
were extended to the present measure, reposed that the
1 inohl d
thatwould
her
find
leatbteodurveorfylnlren.
sHuerprleugsr
nterfi Majesty's Government
ample employment.
intended to withdraw the
the waste lands of Ireland, which had
de
brieelamation of
Ex-
chequer,to-night afnodr
itihnewfiarsstqutiitrteren,
would be received with 1, great dissatisfaction in Ireland.
The Government e give •
ug t to their reasons for abaft-
dolling the Waste Lauds'
i . ar.d he was ahiaai, that
such should be done, as the people of Ireland were an
xious about it, certain a thein.that. Chancellor‘s.nnheann announced
e

Sir R. PEEL said, that duriug the whole course of
the discussion, it was his last wish to throw any obsta-

_-

des in the way of the Government. Toey were se
aware of the difficulties by which they were surrounded'
and even at the present. moment it was with great reluc_-
tance that ho differed from the Noble Lord,
the first Minister of the Crown. Ile ester
the measures- of the Noble Lord, tt'iTe Member for Lyn
fer a :similar object, argil lie tett bound to say that that
prcsito
prif °sato!' Vilt, „pen' objoetion than the
hir it was one general in its na;ure, and not intended
savour one more than another. But the Bill propose:
only to assistone or two ruilssays at present IDs.
istence, how having relet epee to any future hl;
It appeared to him to he a eours, :vela to objection,
the Government. should select three railways, and thin
a limit( d 10 each of them, excluding every ot
railway comp tiy exceptive such as might
entitle themselves to aid by' complying with the ss
conditions a,„ which pucared similar advantaged:
*electe d
for the three railways that were originally
Those were among the considerations which autos
him to hesitate in ~•oting again, t the measure which l,„
Gentietuan opposite had the
to the
In the year 1834, hs, the part of the Govern,:
afterwar;
meet ,
bad propweil that aid should be Oven to reetn_-,..t
way e9f,ratiy which: had tnt;tl,-d itself to that suPtes
by being the first conseany that had established ara
way (i;at country; anti he melt that he only did the 7
justice whet, he. on tee part of the G overnment, expresta,
an opinion to the elf et that the company having cons
pleteel and opened n certaiu portion of theii line, and h the
ing so created fuel and ample security to be offered to,
Government, did entitle their claim to be favouraoptg
considered by the Treesury, and he fit that he sh
he hound, the circumstances being the same, to a adoye
a similar course with regard to other railways of
description PP
. But the time and mode of the P' in
Lion would necessarily influence its extent. Cer.tell
of those railways declined to accept the proffered silly
they saw other railways paying 8 per cent., and,pweer,
should the Government, if it lent any money whe,'"" as
'.end it so much below the market value of the period
ho
5 per cent? It was rather too hard that comea°l" W
had previously declined the aid of the Governinech
should now come forward and solicit aid at s wuas
lower rate of interest than that which at the time wto
ordinarily paid. He did not overlook the font th:PI;
two other railways it was proposed to give 130,0 jo
the sum was small, but the grent of it was wro. ng
rad")
principle unless they were prepared—if other „ aee
fulfilled the same conditions—to extend to such rafirtilly
aid of a similar kind and proportionate amounts to
refused to do that, they would lay themselves open
to
the charge of partiality and unfairness. 13e/Ains
weighed most on his mind, and chiefly disable for
from agreeing with his Hon. Friend the Meelher an
Birmingham—if from long acquaintance that Gentler:si
would allow himself to be called his lion. Friend ao
the peculiar time at which the present proposition
the
made. Those were times of peculiar pressure ; by
Bank of England had reduced its seetllAil„e: on
3,000,0001. ; that sudden and abrupt ru"'"-stielas
aeseessie
led to a panic unjustified by any cousin...
which
which came within his knowledge, or stig,
could be supposed to have any real existence. „no
since the proposition of the Noble Member for lad
had been made to the House important event: at a
occurred. Exchequer-bills, which previouslY were bad
premium, were now at a discount ; an increase et
taken place in the interest on Exchequer-bills, and yeti
notwithstanding ‘hat, they were at a discount, ted
from 2s. to 10s. Besides, a loan had been contraso.
for, and that loan was now at a discount of 3 PAri °the
Under these circumstances, it would be w'l"a„ele
greatest reluctance that he should interpose a eee,,ent
emeisgshtttietsakoef forthe thpeeoppulrepoosfe relievinglreland. In
word to interfere with the measures that Governetes
statWo.
In stuheeh urgent
L'"f
things he did not care who might be in or out of ° Dv.
He believed that, whoever might be in office, the
con'
'listen of the Crown ought to receive the genersie
fidenee of the [louse when the object which they PlI„oos
view was to preserve from famine the masses wh° `Only
stituted the population of Ireland ; and he could sod
blame them if to those particular railways that had o;itr.
mentioned the Government had lent an attentive it,.
He could not, however, omit to observe, that t°
lett
labour on railways was not the way to relieve the o ems
—the true p 'lie), of the railway contractor 10°14 not
ploy the best skilled labour ; and it certainly "
e IV) the
appear to him that there would be much advantcs.fenoelieS
working classes in Ireland that the fathers 01 work
should be brought from Connaught to Munster ;deans
on railways when employment could be more -
tageously given to them at home. On the
ways did not seem to him to be the most efls?rf fore
mode of giving relief. All that applied with fa" ° to
to the plan of the Goverment. It was imp -stn
Ireland as it was to every other country to main his
public credit, and he did find it impossible to give the
vote in favour of the Government plan. Perhaps Le
Chancellor of the Exchequer might say that he Pl""
borrowed 8 000,0001, that he had saved something uP°Il
public works, that &alp kitchens had not proved so ell-
pensive as he apprehended, that he had 620,0004 to
ick
the manner
snowspare,
ar proposed.it wTbehismwuacsh
spire, and that he could not do better than apply
it
oo
he could by no means %lent. If there was a eons of
ttohainncreasing the balances in the Exchequer-4
te
aptly
it in the manner which the Governinent
intended it should be applied. Instead of arguing, as the,
he shoula
Hight Hon. Gentleman had that night argued,
have strictly applied the surplusgof 620,0001• to in-
crease the balances in the Exchequer ; and the HoUSe
of Commons bad had so much morn expenditure t°
provide for than they had expected, that they
be suppoted willing to listen to a demand fur an ex-
penditure so much less than they had been led to eXPeet
from the first demand; yet, because the House eV
liberal, on that very account, he (Sir R. Peel)considereoo
was the duty more incumbent upon them to apelY any
savings that might be in the Exchequer, not for the Ill'
crease, but for the diminution of the public liabilitiehoe.
If' this money were to come out of the 8,000,000 L, whiehet
(Sir R. Peel) did not understand on Wednesday nig"
when he understood that it was not to come from the'
source, but out of the Bank, as he thought had been
i
confidently stated, that would be a different quest;:
But, if it lid: ly appeared to the Chancellor of the 1;
tee
chequer that, finding difficulties he bad not expects./
arising in the mohey market, and seeing that evne,
mode of relief was necessary to be adopted, he could
go on with the measure for the reclamation of waste
lends, not being able to meet the expenditure it w.Ortno.
involve, he (Sir R. Peel) did not blame the Right. 13°,
Gentleman for abandoning that measure; he did
_l.Ol
blame him at ail for seeing in days like these it was nos
expedient to enter upon such an undertaking; that,
is
arty rate, he would not bring the measure forward. 9,
t• That, be Sr lie
session, but would at once withdraw .
entirely
Peel) thought was a manly course to take, and he
I tint
of 6.
agreed with the Right lion. Gentleman in ado? 1
The loan ought to be an advantage in which a- partsust
the United Kingdom should equally share, and he 1120 t.
object to any lean from the Exchequer in which Se et
hind and the other portions of Great Britain did
,_11.4
participate.—(Hear, tnar.) Why, he had been told 05,
so highly thought of was this railway in the south °lll
Ireland, that it did not depend for its support upon Iris.
shareholders, but that great English capitalists bad e 0,131-
forward, and invested large sums of money in the Oder.
taking. If this Dublin and Cashel Railway did not b!;
long to these needy and destitute shareholders, but if
did belong to the men of substance, e.,ebt
Hon. Gentleman behind me—(Great such as the •It'b
Mr. HUDSON—I not laughter)— ;0
possess a single share
an Irish railway.
Sir ROBERT PEEL—The
Right Hon. Gentle
desnes the holding of a share•
he meant to say that if men likelethaee_ Irish railwala_tvie.
Right Hon. Ur u
man, non-resident in Ireland, b co to
but good speculators L.
the prospects of gain—ii these were the men to
benefited, be would ask (7what
in grounds was the
measure proposed. Influenced by such considerations'
he found
subject of' the debate, he thought he should have htl_,7
enough, if a single Member for Birmingham had attache:,
him; but a spur on each man was too much--(A lour/
—but really be must say he thought this a very War
propriate occasion for entering on a general debate °ll
G °v
er
ehtiiint*--sel(flloebalrig, ehdeatrooreciNor,dithhriser the
the currency and the monetary concerns of the country'
Mr. SPOONER—I did not begin it.
Sir R. PEEL resumed by observing that his
Friend had sanctioned, by following, the example
had been set him. His Hon. Friend represented th°ros
peculiar doctrines which he had enunciated ; he rePott
seated a constituency who had the strongest feelingkon,
the suojeet in the kingdom ; and at least, if his, high
Friend had not begun this debate, he had lent 10,, was
authority to the continuation of it, and of course by
not possible thet be (Sir R. Peel) should acquiesc_'pat
silence, in the doctrines that his lion. Friend 117.0r0.
forward. His lion. Friend had made him a sort °no. and
miss that it he (Sir R. I've!) would tell him whet d'
was, his Hon. Friend would him
tell what his mesa-
or any other banker who issued be eawl'
notes to t bearer 51.
when he said on his note, "I premise to pay th„re riee"
But then, when he proceeded it
/
to answer, Ai the
said that he was an insidious Tr I • g
man—(A au of arguin •
be could not trust his (Sir R. Peel's) mete. -
But he wished know, promised him,
to when any one meant---
holder of a bank-note, to pay him / what was d
at
5., A up
what was • intended by the promise to pay? ..,° Coo-
the Conquest, and at various other times since pie it
quest, might have varied in the quantity of metal
represented, but it always had meant a definite cleoant
of the precious metals; it always, in fact, had mince
to
weight. That weight might have varied from ilertsia
time, but at all tinsel; a und bad signified II C„,O of
quantity of the precious metals. since the
crane been
Queen Elizabeth the coin of the country might 1167001 Y
defective, might have been worn.—(Hear, hear.) note
one Hon. Member would have nothing but 1-d these
—(Laughter)---and another a worn coinage; 110 akar.
were the great remedies for national disasterse-, the
hear.) But, since the reign of Elizabeth, thougu al
coin might have been worn, the Jaw bas
hoe
sebvpaeoesttcoteeturitavn4(gt, igio4t
anoleepfi 'wotp
tit
ways been that the stancht d of value shot] e,
if
a definite weight. The Hon. Gentleman said that a
Mr. Pitt had been asked in 1797, '` Whet
this nation would have been lowered in the
uestie
pound?" and had attempted to answer the scale eni
nations—(Laughter)—and, with rather an anti-eh,rit.
, the Hon. GenCeman went to say, that he (Sif
ona,eo
Peel) should not have been seated in the seat he
if rcie
a ny
°1 V
occupied. But, he begged to observe, that ,
had said in 1797 to Mr. Pitt, "Is it your irate said,
d
d,
have a paper currency ?" Mr. Pitt would have Isaie,
It was
" God forbot 1 I do not intend any such thing-
ever ill-
well known that the Bank Restriction Act was n _
tended to last more than three years; but the evil wait.
once departing fretti a principle. Afterwards, eveßejuee,
Pitt could not coritrol the necessary tendency of alive
I o_r leb;
ofWfitha.t. iwniigrhhteh:.voto•
lbde enno
ti tdsi
seffectenss ;in h
i.,
tearninghewounsi
d treko w
t at°
z‘utrured most by the inconvet tible p,per ?
that received the wsges of labour.
Mr. SPOONER, expressed dissent. tbot
Sir ROI3ER I* PEEL resumetl—What w.:re not
class the principal sufferers who received their Age'