The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-12 00:00:00

THE S

N ,

months, commencing the Ist day of September, and
ending the Ist day of March respectively with a summary
for each period. It was important that they should
know whether the proper course had been taken, in
order to save f omen life. There had been two
systems in operation. o.le, the last year, which
provided food and maintenance for the people ; and this
year a system of political economy in which all the
previous precautions were treaten as of no use. It was
for this purpose that he moved fel. these returns.
Mr. LABOUCHERE could assure the Noble Lord
and the Heuse that whatever difficulty there might
exist in meeting the present motion, he had no
wish but to furnish the fullest information
of the destruction of human life which had taken place.
He regretted it as much as any man could do, and he
believed it was going on, and would continue to do so to
a fearful extent. The Government had already supplied
two returns ; one was the number of coroners' inquests
at which ver:icts of death by starvation was given ; and
the other was that to which he consented the other
night, supplied through the constabulary force. The
real difficulty of acceding to the Noble Lord's motion
was, that he -did not know hew accurate information was
to be obtained. There were but two ways of getting in-
formation. With regard to the first plan. he regretted
there was not, as in England, a register of births, mar-
riages, and deaths, owing principal:y, he believed, to re-
iig,ieus differences. He was not without hope that this
difficulty would he got over, but at the present moment
there was no such system in operation as could furnish
correct returns to the Noble Lord. Nothing could be
more inexpedient than inaccurate information, as it was
only calculated to mislead the public mind. The other
objection was, that the returns, if made out at all, would
be entirely voluntary on the part of those alone who
could give any information on the subject, as there were
no public functionarie: in Ireland whose duty it was to
furnish the information sought by the Noble Lord. The
Noble Lord proposed that the clergy, of all denominations,
should be required to furnish the information; but as they
did not keep returns of the numbers who died in their
respective :localities ; neither Protestant nor Roman
Catholic clergymen were expected to keep lists of the
deaths that occurred in their parishes, so that in many
instances they could only assume the numbers. Thus
the information would be most fallacious. All he could
say was, that be would write to Ireland to inquire
whether there existed any means whatever of affording
information which, being accurate, could be relied on.
He feared that there were no accurate means, and if
there were not, he thought the House would derive no
good by having information of a vague character before
them. These were the only objections he entertained
to the motion, for he concurred with the Noble Lord, in
thinking that it was the duty of the Government, and
he was sure it was their desire, to afford the fullest
information on the subject. The Noble Lord had
alluded to a statement made by the Hon. Member for
Limerick (Mr. S. O'Brien) that 240,000 had recently
died from starvation,'or from diseases closely connected
with it. Now he must say that he was quite
ignorant of the source from which the
Hon. Gentleman had derived his information. He (Mr.
Lebouchere) was totally ignorant that any such possible
accounts had reached the Irish Government. But he
had writtt n to Ireland, and he could not help protesting,
in the name of the Government., against the statement of
the Noble Lord, that the Government, acting upon the
principles of political economy, had not devised proper
remedies, and that, in consequence, starvation and
death had increased. The Nobte Lord stated that the
present Government had not acted so benevolently or so
wisely as their predecessors; but he (Mr. Labouchere)
was at a loss to know in what respect the conduct of the
two Governments differed? lie scat-d that they had not
provided food for the people like their predecessors, but
if he would look at the returns of the quantity of food
that hay'_ been exported for the- people of Ireland, he
would find that the quantity of food very much exceeded
the quantity exported by the late Government. The dis-
tress, it was true, had increased, but the
Government had done all in their po*er to
meet the increasing wants of the people. Nothing
could be more dangerous to the Government than to
make these vague and unjust accusations against it un-
less Gentlemen were prepared to prove tht in by facts.
The Government had done all in its power to rel'eve the
present calamities ; but there was unfortunately pre-
valt nt in Ireland a notion that the Government could
prevent these c lamities, and the motion of the Noble
Lord was much calculated to give force to that idea. He
thought it rather hard that the Noble Lord, without
giving proof, should state in the face of the House and
the country that the Gevernment had sacrificed the lives
of thousands of their fellow-beings at the shrine of poli-
tical economy.
Captain HARRIS considered that things were con-
tinuing in a most objectionable state. He would suggest
that the duty might devolve upon the relief committees

to ascertain the numb, rof deaths which occurred. He
considered that it was this continual compromise which
rendered their legislation upon Irish subjects such a
matter of int. rminable difficulty.
Mr. SHAW said that he did not consider that the
clergymen in the different districts kept registers of the
deaths which occurred.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the Government
would make inquiries, but they would not undertake to
furnish any vague information they might receive. In
consequence of the many reproaches which had been
cast upon the. GcNernmt nt, he considered it right
to make some statem, nt to the House next Monday
night, en going into Committee on the Poor Relief Bill,
with regard to what had been done and what was then
doing, and why he thought it necessary that out-door
relief should be administered.
Lord G. BEN TINCK said that the increased mor-
tality in the workhouses, throughout all Ireland, was
nine-fold. Last year the deaths were 162, while this
year they were 1,493 per week ; and within the last
three wicks there were 004 218,000 quarters of wheat
sent into the country. He blamed the G wertnnent for
not making earlier and more stringent exertions to avoid
the calamity which had befallen the country. Ile would
beg leave to withdraw the motion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that the estimates of the deaths, which the Noble Lord
had made, were just as much exaggerated as those esti-
mates he had made when making his late proposition
to the House. The French Government had only sup-
, plied food to the army in Algiers.
Mr. DISRAELI contended that his Noble Friend had
not exaggerated his estimates ; he had founded them
upon the very documents before the House. And with
respect to the statement of the Chancellor, respecting
the French Government, the reason they only purchased
corn for their army was because they had exhausted a
three years' store of provisions in first feeding the people.
The motion was then withdrawn.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the consideration of
the Lords' amendments to the Labouring Poor Bill.
They were agreed to.
RUSSIA LOAN.

Mr. B. ESCOTT desired to know if a new Act wou'd
be necessary in order to pay the interest on the Russia
loan ?
Lord PALMERSTON said that a new convention
would not by any means be required.
NAVAL ESTIMATES.

Captain PEdifiLCaskei if the Government in-
tended t:► take the naval estimates upon Monday or
Friday.
Lord J. RUSSELL said it was not the intention of
the Government to take the consideration of them till
Friday week.
CRACOW.—ADJOURNED DEBATE.

On the motion for resuming the adjourned debate
upon Cracow,
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a numerously signed
petition, adopted at a meeting held in the Tottenham-
court-road, against the annexation of Cracow to Austria.
.Mr. .AONCKTON NIILNES said that the Noble
Lord on the tormer evening propounded a doctrine which
he (Mr. Manes) did not trunk was very tenable. He
implied that the House were not warranted in going
into the question at all. It was a matter of fact that
their foreign affairs were generally too much
locked up in the bosom of their Foreign Secretary.
The subj, ct of the absorption of Cracow was made a
matter of a moral, distinct. and solemn protest, and he
thought that the House was in no degree derogating
from its dignity by taking that opportunity of confirm-
ing that act of her Majesty's Government. He had re-
joiced to hear the protest wh ch had been delivered
against that act by the Duke of Bedford, and he had
been glad to see a letter on the subject by that distin-
guished diplomatist Sir Stratford Canning. He believed
that by the consent of the House to the resolution pro-
posed by the llon. Member for Montrose, the :Govern-
ment would give effect to the protest which had already
been made. If, however, the Noble Lord at the head of
her Majesty's Government refused to give the assent of
the Government to the resolution, it would encou-
rage a notion upon the Continent that the Government
of the country was not glad to have an opportunity of
declaring itself against this act of incorporation. The
general feeling of the people of this country was so
strongly marked against the wrong which had been
done to Poland, and it was not because the Poles in this
country were emigrants or strangers that that feeling
was shown by large contributions to their assistance, but
because it was deeply felt that they were suffering from
suppression
lastt he t
efn r e
oe r citytwlve pinjustice and oppression. In the papers relating to the
sCa rgaecso w ,
were laid
taken before
up the
Howe, tho of
by
an elaborate argument—he supposed by some Austrian
author—to show that Russia, Prussia, and Austria had
at their disposal and sole control the independence of
the city of Cracow. It stated that the independent
existence of that city was granted solely by those
three Powers, as, iu 1815, when the treaty
was concluded, the assent of no other courts
beside those of these three powers was. demanded. He
should be enabled to show that the assertion was wholly
destitute of foundation. In the Congresses held at
Utrecht and Aix la. Chapelle, treaties were entered into
so:ely between England and France, to which the other
nations were merely usseroing powers. The treaty of
Vienna was, however, an agreement between all the
powers f Europe. A distinguished statesman had said.
that the final act of the treaty of Vienna was now the
fundamsntal Itw in Europe with reference to European
States; for it was a law framed by all the States com-
prising the system, and
obligatory
upon all. it was not
in the power of the Congress of Vienna to arrange all
the affairs of Europe, but one of the principal objects was
the disposition of the terriwy whets hscl become vacant
hs tile peace of Paris. This• was divided into taro bodies,
one relating to Poland, and the other to Saxony. There
had been previously made arrangements with regard to
part of this territory, and there were several articles in
the treaty of Paris by which the allied powers a ere to have
cry relinquished by France.
she disposiden of the territ
The first arrangement made with regard to the Duchy
of Warsaw wits made between Russia. Prussia, Austria,
and England ; and France and Spain were to be called
on to advise, but were to have no part in the proceeding,
and to agents of each of the powers forming a
The object of Erigissud, as would be found upon an