The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-03 00:00:00

MORNIN 0-, FEBRUARY 3, 1847

manner in which they bad discharged their duties. In
other departments he thought there might be more
vigour. lie meant the Commissariat department ; but,
alter looking at the correspondence that had been
laid before the House, there had been a great
desire to execute all that it was in their power
to do. He was bound, however, to say that the diffi-
culties of Ireland were still before the House. He was
anxious that every just consideration should be
given to the present great calamity—(Hear)—
and to consider of the means to be taken to alleviate
the distress of the people, and, as far as possible,
to prevent a recurrence of such calamities in
future. Lie was anxious to adduce a few
facts illustra.ive of some of the peculiarities
of the condition of Ireland which appeared
to him to be very essential to a fair consideration of the
whole question. It was not his intention to enter into
any details, but he would confine himself to the broad
and striking features of the case. Ile first wished to
take the case of the occupiers. They had heard a
good deal on that subject lately. The Hon, and Learned
tGioei tene,aittnii.todiic;in(tih;itittiiticauiotettini,l,edupuireathuiree
Member for Ba+h, in his speech last night, drew a fear-
ful lecture of the state of the occupiers of Ireland. He
(M. r. Hamilton) wished he could state that in his
overdrawn. He
annd'asLeoavr
sug-
gest certain means of remedying these evil,.
Gentlemanne hthi
It was impossible that the Honourable and Learned
hparevveafiulilillyg•
amongstrettlised tthheateenlirs,iTislerxe.-
land, and the number of those persons so affected. Evi-
dence was given before the Land Commission, of which
he (Mr. Hamilton) was a Member—and that with
The census of 1841 gave some startling results on this
subject. The census of 1841 had given to the House a
return of the number of farms above one acre.
There were 685,000 in round numbers, and of
these no less than 560,000, or nearly 80 per cent.
wsre under 15 acres, and a considerable proportion of
that total being under ten and five acres. If any
gentleman in England were asked what he would
consider the position of a farmer having so small
a quantity of land as fire, ten, or fifteen acres, of
course the answer would be that it was impossible any
man having so small a quantity of land could
employ himself properly in the cultivation of it, and
that he ought to be turned into an independent labourer,
and put upon mosey wages. Yet here they had five
out or six farms in Ireland occupied by persons of that
description, these occupiers being dependent entirely on
the preduce of these miserable portions of land for
subsistence, and being occupied in the cultivation of this
land, without the assistance of manufactures or other
means of sustaining themselves. The next means
(a better means of judging of the real condition of
the great body of the people in Ireland), was to be found
in the census. The Census Commissioners made a return
and classification of the houses of different descriptions
in the whole of Ireland, and they divided them into four
classes. The fourth class was a mere hut, the walls and
floors being of mud, consisting of only one room, with no
window. The third chas was better than this, it was also
of mud, consisting of more rooms than one, and having
windows. The other two were the farm houses, and the
houses of the gentry and clergy, and of the 4th class
there were no less than 1,075,000 in Ireland.
The Hon. Member then read a number of statistics from
the late census of Ireland, as published, with the object
of showing how severely the famine must have been
felt in Ireland. He stated that in the
county of Mayo there were only 217 gentlemen's
houses, while there were 63,483 of the third class.
Such was the state of Ireland with regard to the hold-
ings of land; there was no labouring population as in
England, paid by large capitalist farmers, but a popula
lion, such as he had described, with very small holding;
and there was not throughout the extent of the coun-
try more than ono per cent. of gentlemen rimong
them. With regard to the landlords, he begged to ob •
serve that, in consequence of the system of cenaere
which prevailed there, it was with the greatest difficulty
that any improvement could be effected in the condition
of the people. Those who knew Ireland were aware
of those difficulties. Landed gentry, he had just stated,
did not comprise more than one per cent. 01
the population. Now that raised the question
of absenteeism. He agreed with the Hon. Gentleman
who stated last night that some of those who were ab•
sentee proprietors were among the best latellords of Ire-
land; but they were the exceptions, not -the rule.
He was bound to say that the largest pro-
prietors did their duty well to their tenantry, but
that could not be said of the smaller class of
proprietors
who comprised the great bulk of the
absentee landlords. The large proprietors kept on their
property au agent, who to some extent discharged the
duties of the proprietor himself ; but he was afraid
that this could not be said of the great ma-
jority of the smaller class of absentee land-
lords. At any rate, there was no one who could
deny that absenteeism was attended with the greatest
evils, and had the most injurious effects on the comforts
and cendieion of the people—(Hear, hear)—and he sin-
cerely believed that it contributed very mate-
rially to aggravate the misery caused by the calamity
under which the Irish people were at present labouring.
There was another evil which was severely felt in
Ireland, and that was the case of the absence of agents.
There were a number of agents engaged ill the man.
tegument of estates, who resided elsee here, and who only
visited those estates once a year. Then with respect to
income. A member last night had stated that
the whole income of Ireland was about 3,000,000/
a year ; but he (Mr. Hamilton) bad found
from the report of the state of the estates in Ireland that
the amount of income assessed in lreland was over
6,000,000/., a matter which was well worthy of the con•
sideration of the House. He found that out of the
property that was assessed in Ireland, not less than
702,000/. were under the charge of the Court of Chan-
cery and the Court of Exchequer, and that during the
custody of this money, the arrears had increased from
300,4861. to upwards of 400,0001., and that the
of 300,0001
amount now actually held was upwards ,
This showed what was the condition of
was
another a grey
portion of the property in Ireland. Then theres
another evil arising from the state of the law of mort-
gage, an alteration of which would enable unen-
cumbered proprietors to get rid of their
which the m estates.
In England, if a mortgage! were fereclosed, it was
customary to sell that portion onort-
.
gage was imposed in order to satisfy the demand
The practice in Ireland was very different; the practice
almost universally prevailed that when a proprietor
borrowed money, he borrowed it on a bond and
judgment. This judgment (which was scarcely known
in this country) overrode all portions of bis property,
extending over every township, and it was almost
impossible to get rid of the money borrowed during
the operation of the judgment. Again, with re-
ference to the existence of the class known
as middlemen, every body would feel that the
operation of this with the previous cause
had been prejudicial to the interests ot Ireland. Thesewere matters that involved the condition and prospects
e
of every class. The 'Honourable and
Learned
r
Gentleman stated the other nhtthatNow that evert
man in Ireland was out of his proper position.
to do
ask whether the Legislature had anything
himseis;
with it ?—(tlvar, hear, and cheers.)
For
'ntsnance
sta•ernent was, to a certain extent, true ; but. he might
he was a strong advocate for the
bad been to
his own mind, that the effect of that union
Ireland to
draw away the landed aristocracy from
main cause
of the union, but he could not conceal the truth from
this country, and that had
Gen-
tlemanlionposition, a position which the • and Learned
to fill
fur then'
why the class had arisen whichheeonccuapied
characterised as one improper
in very strolie
The lion. and Learned Gentleman had, in _
d to the col
language, expressed his opinion with ree
of their pro
pability of landlords in the managementathat some land
parties. lie was not prepared to dae'
of great e rrors
lords, in times gone by, had been guilty
..._.. the last
but %Imp"' '
a middle
in the management of the it estates ;
veinent had take',
twenty or thirty years a marked imp
animated with
gentry in that country. They were noweiomi,e,
and a
a spirit of foresight, with a desire
hadto
become prevalen,
place in the habits, opinion, and eourdaut
desire to improve their estates
if
the remark of the
among them during that period.
peculiarly to the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman applied
, know for what
he should like to
existing state of things, of the tended
blame? The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman depthe landlords of Ireland so mr
e
uc
a
t
e
d the small holdings
should
had been divided. He shou
into which that country
like to know whether
the landlords had been to blame?
" was for the clearing or the it was that the Hon. and Learneeil
to
eentleman considered
non-
clearing of estates thatHe
had heard much of the
--(Hear, hear.)the clearing system had given rise.
of things in behead, he should like
of the existing state
the
English Legislature had made.
to know how oftenf
its
hhinlahndlords were taunted with being the cause
political contests—how often had
made Ireland serve their own purposes,
English parties
h„e parties neglected her? When
and how often had t
useful for their purposes, vast numbers
she ceased to be
bad been laid upon the table of the House
leThLeorpdr,inhteipa(lMor.b
objection he
of blue books
el[Vvreihilaennt
estions and warnings upon the sub-
ject.
teeming
andwith.a.ogF` now they were reaping the fruits of
of Ireland,
those warnings. With regard to the
not attending 0
dolrtwihse arena o
of the Nob
considering that they bound to state, that_.. ey were founded
' le of introducing capital into Ireland, they
on the principle
had his concurrence. washad
ised out•door relief to
measures
was to the propt able-bodied
apprehended many s •
labourers, as he
great care •
was taken in its adminis-
arise from it, unless
laTiatem which had been given last
tration. The explanation
night by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of
however, done much
the Exchequer, had,
strong objection he previously entertained. He would
have liked that the present measures had been accom-
panied by a qualified system of emigration, so as to
this country who had friends
enable parties in
and America, but who had not funds to go out, to he
sent to those friends,
lie
th could not impress too strongly
on the House the fact at the improvement 01 Ireleuei
was to be effected, not by great measures, but by a series
of small measures. He believed that these small
measures, ao e ever high-sounding might be the
great - measures, were the real paaaecea for the
evils of Ireland. He very much
approved of a
commission of legal men of both countries to consider
how far the law of Ireland might be assimilated to that
of England. He was glad to hear from the Chancellor
of the Exchequer last night, that it was the intention of
Government to give loans to small farmers, which he
considered was calculated to relieve the labourers. There
was only one other topic to which he wished to advert.
The Hon. Member for Montrose had alluded to a meet-
ing of the landlords of Ireland in Dublin, whosb object,
it was stated, was to secure as much for themselves as
possible, notwithstanding the distress of the people. He
had only to refer the lion. Gentleman to
the resolution
passed ;it that meeting, and Ise would It-ave it to the
candour of the yon. Measlier to any whether the
w, re actualcAl St ,tt'iy by s ,i,,,irc
of
~..4
tlll ~
all they
could for themselves. lie would state, in reply to
the Honourable Member for Oxford, that these

resolutions showed that they were fully alive to the
amount of danger that existed in the country. The
landlords of Ireland were united, without reference to
political faction or creed, for the good of their country.
They were united not to destro3 but to preserve. It
was to prevent the horrors of social revolution that they
were united. Not to involve the country in anarchy
and confusion, but to raise the condition of the people,
and to save all classes—(he used the words of the rear).
lution on which their union was formed)—to raise the
social condition of the people and to save all classes from
the ruin with which they were at present menaced. He
could assure his Hon. Friend that that union amongst
the Irish gentlemen on this subject was but a faint re-
flection of the unity of purpose and harmony of
feeling existing among all classes in Ireland on the pre
sent occasion. This heavy visitation—this great calamity
this visitation of Providence had softened men's hearts,
and called forth hosier and better impulses. It was de-
lightful to see on the relief committees men whom early
prejudices—whom strong prepossessions—and whom,
perhaps, the influence of stern principles had hitherto
kept sundered from each other ; it was delightful to
to see them emulating each other in endeavouring to al-
leviate the want of their fellow creatures.—(Cheers.)
It was delightful to see prejudice gradually dissipating—
those prepossessions gradually disappearing—and a foun-
dation laid for friendship, and harmony, and good feel,
ing, among the different classes of the community, which
he trusted would long survive the unhappy occasion
which had given rise to them. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the Right
Hun. Gentleman, the Secretary for Ireland, had, on a
previous occasion said, that co-operation among the
Irish was essential for the successful carrying out of any
measures which might be derived, or of any laws that
might be made by this Parliament for the improvement
of the condition of Ireland. He could agree with senti-
ments so expressed, and he believed that co-operation,
energy, and activity, among the people of Ireland them-
selves ; and, above all, a kind co-operation on this
subject by parties who had kept too much
asunder, were essentially necessary for the proper
carrying out of any measure, however well contrived,
by any Government in this country. On the part of the
United Irishmen he thought he could tender their zea-
lous co operation, for they were anxious to support any
measure, let it come from whht quarter it might, which
they considered calculated to improve the social condi-
tion of that country. Me was sure, at all events, that
all measures would be considered irrespective of any
party consideration ; and he would say for himself, that
he most unfeignedly trusted to congratulate her Ma-
jesty's Government on an) measure they might propose,
and which would be doubtless sanctioned by the Legis-
lature. and which should be, in his opinion, calculated
to relieve the present distress, and contribute to promote ,
the improvement of Ireland.—(Cheers,)
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL said it was not his intention to
have occupied the time of the House long during this debate,
simply for this reason—that while they were delaying the pro-
gress of this and other measures the people of Ireland were
Perishing from hunger.—(Hear, hear.) Even the utmost
haste that the House could make in passing this measure would
not save the lives of those who were at that period perishing.—
(Cheers.) It was, therefore, incumbent on the House to

enable her Majesty's Ministers to carry into execution those
measures which they had brought forward on their own re-
sponsibility, which they, on the fullest consideration, believed
would prevent the people from being swept from the land by
the calamity with which it had been visited, with the least
possible delay. During the debate two or three character-
istics had come strongly out, to which he proposed to devote a
few remarks. In the first place, he begged to bear testimony:
and his thankful testimony, to the commiseration which
the House had evinced for the distresses of Ireland
—(Hear, bear)—to the great readiness evinced by
Hon. Members on both sides of the House to adopt the
strongest measures that might appear necessary to afford relief
to Ireland. The next characteristic was—he was sorry to say
—a cegree of ignorance, on the part of the House, of the
social condition of Ireland ; which, after having occupied a
seat for fifteen years in that House, he was nor prepared to
find. This ignorance pressed more strongly upon him than
ever the conviction, which he had always,—that a Parliament
resident and sitting in a country was the only competent body
to take care of- the interests. of that country, and what was
beneficial to its inhabitants. Then attacks had been made on
the landlords of Ireland. One Gentleman had rendered him-
self very prominent in this respect Anything, however, com-
ing from him had very little weight in that house, and still
less weight in Ireland. He spoke of the onourable
Memb2r for Bath (Mr. Roebuck) who seem,d to take pleasure
when almost every other Member in tha House was anxious to
avoid every topic of an irritating nature, to banish all preju-
dices, and when nothin..; bat considerations of humanity bad
any influence over them ; in making malignant attacks, in
raising ill-feeling, end preventing a full and fair consideration
of the important measures before the House. The Honourable
Member kept up a series of incessant attacks upon the Catholic
priesthood, which at the present period was, of all times, the
most unjust, seeing that they were sacrificing their lives in
attending to the destitute and afflicted. They, however,
needed not his vindication any more than they heeded his at-
tacks. The Honourable Member had also attacked the
people of Ireland. He said, " that they came to the
House in an abject condition to beg." He (Mr. J. O'Con-
sell) denied the assertion. 'they did not deserve such
se aspersion upon their character. The Hon. Member for
the University of Oxford, had justly spoken of the heroic for-
titude of the people under their sufferings. And these were
the people who had been used by the Hon. Member for Bath
as the target of his foul aspersions. The Hen. Member had
also attacked the landlords of Ireland, he was not there to vin-
dicate them, or to say that they had not done wrong, if they
had, however, done so, the House was much to blame for their
conduct in consequence of the course of Legislation
they had pursued, in putting temptations in the way
of those who were unable to resist them.—( Hear, hear.)
Indeed there was no parallel to the distress which at present
existed in Ireland. But considering the calamities which had
come upon them, considering the short time that there has
bein to -look out for proper measures of relief, he considered
that the landlords of Ireland generally acted their part fully as
well as the poor had borne their sufferings.—(Hear, hear.) He
was also bound to bear his testimony, to that of the Hon.
Member for the University of Dublin, to that most
delightful unanimity which has appeared in Ireland. They
had all agreed to forget their miserable differences ;
and he had been surprised and gratified beyond
measure to see gentlemen whom had been sundered by party
dissensions meeting each other with the utmost cordiality, the
only contest between them being who would best show their
anxiety to relieve the people. He was still further bound to
observe, and glad to remark, that between the clergymen of the
different denominations, and there were
chairman,
lartz
therethe com-
mittee of which he had the honour to be
and the strongest
ex-
isted the most cordial union of brotherhood,
efforts to outdo each other in acts of. Cmhirseisrtyiaan charity. The
light The
union was amongst their gloom, and
from which he augured much good. He hoped that it would
be permanent, and that from this day forth they might date
the prosperity of Ireland, and that they would no longer pre-
sent the appearance of a divided nation, but of one which
would hold together and work together. He had been be-
trayed into a greater length than usual, but he wished to say a
few words
upon the measure before the House. He
sea bound to say that he considered that the Government
committedtted a mistake in. not endeavouring to supply
food—he did not mean to supply food to a whole
nation, but had the soup plan even been put
into operation a far different result would have happened.
He was fully aware of the inconvenience, as well as the ex-
pense which would attend Government interference, with
regard to the supply of food, and also that markets would' rise
if Government went into the market as a purchaser. He had
no hesitation, however, in saying that they ought to have held
eut hopes to the n.erchant that he would sustain no loss by the
supplies he brought. He thought that the first loss would
have been the best. He believed that if food had been
supplied in the first instance the labourers of the country
would not have been withurawn from their ordinary
occupations to take employment upon the public works.
—(Hear, hear.) He did not, however, imagine
that any other steps could be taken lest August than what
were taken by the Government, but he was of opinion that
the suspension of the 4s. duty and the navigation-laws should
have been proposed sooner.—( Hear, hear.) He formed great
hopes of the great advantage which would attend the esta-
blishment of soup kitchens, and he begged the House not to
lose a moment in establishing these relief committevs, for the
people were dying, not by thousands, but by hundreds of
thousands. He did not approve of their system of
poor-laws, but under the present circumstances of the
country, he would not oppose the measure. The
capital of the country and the property of the country
would he destrayed, still he would no more opposed that mea-
sure than it he were on beard a sinking ship he should oppose
the construction of a raft out of the pleas of the ship, It was'
necessary to adopt any measure to meet the present state of
Ireland, and he readily grasped like a drowning man at the pro-
posed measure, and cordially withdrew any opposition that he
would otherwise have been prepared to offer to the measure.
There was a general complaint of e want of comprehensiveness
of the measures of her Majesty's Government. The
great question of the repeat of the union was eon-
&tiered, however it might be treated in the
House, as the panacea fir all the evils that affected
the country. That subject would one day be brought most
powerfully under the consideration of the House. He begged,
in conclusion, to offer his tribute of gratitude to the admirable
speech of the Hon Member for the University of Oublin.
He would apologise for having, even by the small time which
he had occupied by the delivery of his speech, prevented the
passing of the measures introduced by the Government, and
hoped that the further discussion of the measures would be
conducted in a kind and friendly spirit.
Lord CASTLEREAGH would tender his most cordial
thanks to the Noble Lord at the head of the Government for
the measures which he had introduced, in order to meet the
alarming state of the distress under which the people of Ire-
land were suffering. He cordially approved tif the measure to
sanction the proceedings which had taken place under the Trea•
sury Minute. To the Lord Lieutenant of the country the
greatest praise was due for his exertions to mitigate the exist-
ing distress. He thought the general accusation against the
Irish landlords was entirely unfounded. The House ought to
know who those landlords were who were alluded to. There
was one point in the Government measures which did not seem
to give so much satisfaction to the House as some other parts
of the scheme, and one or two of which he was sorry to hear
the Chancellor of the Exchequer say that he
.to th
did note
entertain very sanguine expectations (he
grant of a million of moneyforthheigrhelcyl
desirable.amat
imlof
t‘hVei Witht6
lands). He thought the measure
re-
spect to the absentee landlords,lie would
which onwlyiesayprthpaetshede
would be the first person to oppose _
any scheme
to levy a tax upon that clue (Hear, hear.) The employ-
ment of the people upon publicewohrr thatkshada
just system e
been attended wit
with
very serious results, and he t
out-
door relief to the able-bodied class.—(Hear,
patsips, a
paupers was
theasdesirable.
The Hon. CECIL LAWLESS, representative of
one of the largest and most importantconesstsiaTetnocies,
overcomebegged
t ht
o
say, notwithstanding this was his first
e
timidity of addressing the House, that all
might
ehma
ineasures which
were now proposed, however goodthey themselves,
were proposed at least six months too late. Irelandfrheared now
place in the scale of nations,
arrived at a crisis, and she must either be swept
or
become great, glorious, and
free in her self, and with her rise or fall this country was moat
intimately bound up. He gave the Hon. Memberb ftohreßdatihd fnuoltl
credit for a knowledge of .
e
think his views ebstract speculations,
atnadtenooftldrieelatantded
by that feeling of sympathy ;
they were most un-E
galtsh
athy for the suffering of Ireland which
they should be.
__
Mr. GREGORY was not one of thosepsrsosnnset to see thatwhowereso
wrapt ep in the science oflv
the Government had acted politicalunwise economy
a
in abiding by the pledge
which they. had
given at the close of the last session not to in-
interfere
with the operations of trade. lb ever there was a
time when the strict maxim, of political economy should be set
aside, it was when distress was so prevalent over the whole
of Ireland. They had by this conduct given the greatest
encouragement to the merchants and speculators in Ireland.

es—s• a
He heard with great pleasure the speech of the Noble Lord i charging his duties.—(Hear, hear.) It was said that the
the Member for Lynn, and that of the other Noble Lord, who I landlords of Ireland were beggars, but he denied that state-
headed that party in the ether House, but he did trot agree ment. With the assistance of Government, it would be found
with his (Lord George Bentinck's) sentiments with regard 1 that the landlords of Ire'and were quite ready to do their
to the speculations. He agreed with him, however, that they j duty ; but of this subject he should be prepared
should not allow the people of Ireland to starve. He regretted I
to speak when the proper time arrived for doing so. He
he was not in the House the other night, when the Chancellor I would no longer trouble the House except to entreat Govern-
of the Exchequer said that the depots in the western part of ; meet to encourage emieratien and coloiesetion, and to thank
Ireland were opened to meet the wants of the people. The the people of this countrt and the Government for the anxiety
Hon. Mem •er for Donegal, he was glad to see, had dented i they had evinced for allesiating thedistress ef Ireland.
that statement, and he himself, though living
within seven- I Lord CLEMENTS theught the Irish Members bad been
teen miles of Galway, could say, that until I hursday lest, not unjustly blamed for the failure of the Public Weeks Act, be-
a single pound of provisions was given out from the cause it was not likely that they could be in their places when
stores in that locality.—( Hear, hear.) In proof of their services were required in Ireland.—(llear, hear.) At
this the Honourable Gentleman read a letter from Galway, all events he would net share any of ihe blame. His services
to the effect that the depots had not yet been opened, and that were more useful in Ireland at the time the Bill was passed than
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made a misstatement on they would have been had he been in hielslaee in the House.
that subject. When the people were dying, and when it was He admitted that the statement that Lreners had forsaken their
found that they'were being demoralised by the means which
the Government had carried out, then it was proposed to make I farms to labour on •he Government eorks, wes correct; but they
: were to blame in this respect, as they hod held out inducements
the changes which were now contemplated. He could make i for them to leave their legitimate meads of subsistence. The
every allowance for the difficulties of Government, but far- wages were, first, 2d. a day less than the usual rate, but the
seeing and sagacious statesmen would have adopted a very Government yielded to the popular-clamour, sad in-
different course. The great evil of the labour-rate Act was its I creased the rate of payment to that demanded—
diversion of labour from its ordinary channels, and of holding 1 -( Herr, hear)- and now they come . fere and and charged
out the prospect that the produce of 184Swould be inferior to ; the country gentlemen with. being deficient in firmness,
that of 1847. The Honourable Member, alter reading the i and with having given relief in those who were not fit reci-
prophecies of Lord Monteaele and the Duke of Grafton, : pients. The Government officers had not carried out the
with regard to the Labour-rate Act, said that these prophecies r measures in a proper manner, as in many instances they had
were carried out, and thought the Government pretended to i seught the advice of the resident proprietors. Captain Layard
adhere to the principles of political economy. In his opinion,
was appoi need in the district in
which he lived (in Leitrim),
their proceedings showed a departure from them, which he 1 but he nev. r coirsulted him ( Lord Cl, merits). He therefore
could not reconcile with their professions Why, he would , blamed the Government for not havirg soiieht the advice of
ask, did not they propose the contemplated measures sooner, ! those who were competent by their long connexion with the
when their advantage would have had much more efficiency ? r country to testify to the state of the populace and the proper
Before he sat down, he gave the Noble Lord credit for good ; mode to set about dispensieg relief to them. The' em-
intentions, but be thought that he should have brought for- I oloyment of farmers ant others oho had no &aim to be em.
ward some • measure for carrying out a system of railways. 1 ployed on the Government works might have lirs'el p•evented in
But as his Noble Friend the Member for Lynn intended to this way, by the dismissal of th ci eck (lei ks, whi rever such a
bring in a measure on this subject, he would not allude to it class of persons were emplo3ed. fa,cau-e they had ample oppor-'
further at present. He was somewhat surprises.,i tunnies of knowing the preition end cendroen of those who
also, that the Noble Lord did not prol.ose to I were engaged. When he became r member of the relief corn-
establish agricultural schools. A measure of this kind would ! mittee ire Leitrim, he considered that the 4/, tenant test was
produce incalculable good, and, instead of advancing one 1 the proper one, as parties so rateet were paupers, who were
million to reclaim the waste lands, it would be expended on I unable to pay rates, and who wore, therefore, fit subjects for
the establishment of these schools—the benefit to the people of relief. From his experience, he found that this was
I
Ireland would be much greater. The great principle which a fair pivot to turn. But alarm the lists had
ever, Legislature should adopt, with regard to Ireland, should I been made out from the rate-backs in this way,
be to lessen the amount of responsibility with regard to the Government celled upon them to mi=ke it out accord-
the measures ; and he did not think the measures of the Noble ing to another plan; thus confusion had been created, and
Lord sufficiently stringent to carry out that principle. even up to that time no efficient list Lad been made out.
He would not allude then to the poor-law, but with regard to Many farmers who only rented four or five acres were not only
emigration he had no very sanguine hopes of the success of that above want, but in a condition to assist their poorer neigh-
plan of the Noble Lord. Before he sat down he begged to say hours. Some had six head of cattle, one or two of which they
one word for the position of the landlords of Ireland. The re- had, perhaps, been compelled to part with, owing to the want
sponsibility of all the social evils of Ireland had been cast upon of turnips. It was, therefore, unfair for those persons who
the landlords, and upon whom the slightest punishment that possessed such a small number of acres, from which, by their
should be inflicted was confiscation was contended. Atter all, industry, they del ived a good living, to be called upon to contri-
the same imputation might be cast on the landlords of'Scotland. bute towards the support. of thine who held more land, but who
What was it that prevented the poplation of this country were less industrious. Therefore, he said the Government
from being dependant upon potatoes, and enduring the same were not acting a benefieent part towards Ireland by giving
calamity as that which afflicted Ireland; but the existence of relief indiscriminately, and not protecting the industrious from
manufactories, as well the children as the parents of production. supporting the idle, some of whom held twenty acres, into
The early birth of manufactures had been early crushed in which they had never put a spade, yet they were now receiving
Ireland. Let them regard the north of Ireland. At first the relief as destitute persons. They let the land in con-
evils of Ireland were ascribed to the idleness of the lower acre, and lived out of the proceede; but they continued in in-
classes, then to the injurious influence of the middlemen, and dolence and paid neither rates nor taxes ; in tact, the only
lastly it was thrown upon the landlords. It should, however, thing they would do was to labour at the public works, and to
be recollected that the landlords of Ireland were, under the receive the pub:ic money. It was incumbent upon the Govern-
pressure of circumstances, that could not affect the landlords of ment to put a stop to such a pernicious system as this.
this country, and from which he trusted they would be ever In many parts of Leitrim the people had neglected to collect
exempted. The true means of elevating the people of Ireland, manure, so that the land could not be expected to produce
would be to give to every man in that country an outlet for his crops, and therefore deficient harvests would continue so long
exertion and fair protection for the same. as they neglected the proper cultivation of the land. The
Sir H. W. BARRON was glad to see such Gentlemen as " rundale ' system was equally open to objection, and ought
the Hon. Member who last addressed the House come forward to be grappled with at once. Even if the harvests were pro-
and express himself in the way he had done. He was a Gen- ficient there was not sufficient mechanical power in Ireland to
tleman with whom he should feel no hesitation to act, and manufacture the grain. He had visited one mill in which he
he was glad to see that the feuds which existed found thirty persons waiting to have their corn ground, and
between parties in Ireland were fast dying away. so great was the tmantity brought that the mill had
It was also gratifying to see that the Government of to be kept at work during the night. He re-
this country was acting upon a different principle to gretted that . the Gevernment were disposed to
that upon which they had too long acted, and that they had encourage absenteeism, which had reduced the towns to a state
abandoned altogether the principle of o &ride et inipera." of pauperism, as the money realised out of the soil was spent
It had been asserted by that Hon. Gentleman that out of the eonntry, a great portion of it being expended here,
England paid 12,000.000/. of taxation more in proportion than so that Ireland, in a period of suffering, had a right
Ireland. Now a more fallacious statement was never tittered to receive subsidies from this country; in fact,
in that House. He took the trouble of examining the income she was almost in a po.i!ien to demand such aid.
and expenditure of the United Kingdom, and he found that out He had to lay upon the tab es of the House petitions from the
of 51,000,000/. Ireland bore a proportion of 44.V00,000/, formers of the county of Leitrim, complaining that every ten
leaving only one half of the proportion stated by the pound freeholder was obliged to go and attend in his place
Host. Member. Now, with respect to the amount of taxation as a juror on a summons from the sheriff. Now he'considered
in Ireland, not more than three million pounds was spent in it was most unfair that these men shotild have to attend wlfile
Ireland. With respect or what had been said about teens to the aloetirees were never even called upon. There wdk an-
Ireland, namely, that they had never been repaid ; now, a , other point to which he
would wish to titer—it was to the con-
more mendacious assertion than that had never been made, duct of the ball,ffs and agents anon estates. It was considered
He need only refer te the tables awl documents a very hard thing of him ( Lord Clemente) when,
with which Hon. Gentlemen were well acquainted, to prove in his capacity of a Magistrate. he declined to go
the utter mistake of this assertion. It had, indeed, been into a great many c-uses ter the burning of land
asserted that loans had been ' made. to the clergy, —which they were all a e ere was a very grave (Hence—
which had never been repaid, but he would beg but he had heard that the money eid not go into Ihe landlord's
to remind Hon. Gentlemen that these loans were not made at or the ag'ue's pocket, but into that of the bsillff, who, when
the request of the Irish people, but merely so carry out the Ihe f ,and that he eyelet no lot ger receive the fees upon these
views and purposes of the Government of the day. Tlo-re I case, himself. but would have to return en account of them,
never had been a loan paid to Ireland that. had not been repaid ' never troubled the Bench any more. He did say that the
with usurious interest. Here, when money was lent to public time was wine when trie% Fhould oblige the absereee landlords
companies or private individuals, the rate of interest charged to look after their property, and that ihe thee was also come
was 3 per cent., while that charted in Ireland was 5 per cent. when they sheuld enasavour to .form a home market
How, then, was the statement of the Hon. Member for Beth a, it was lintels im, osetil,• that a country should be purely
sustained in the assertion he made in the House the other aericultural without mee tine such reverses as it e present. He
night, that there wos a continual drain upon the people of liven in what tie be .ii-veil to be the vry Forest district in Ire-
England for the support of the people of Ireland? land, here he had be, n tithing day and night to benefit the
In the reign of George 111., you legislaJed, and made the Irish condition if the peer —. Hear, hear ) He had received a let-
Parliament to meet _in England. Was there ever such a ter from his steward no later than on List Wednesday, which
mockery of legislation as .this? They were now suffering the intermeed him that, in one day. no fewer than 175 persona
results of the tyranny of an English Parliament legislating for came to his farm-y ant to purchase turnips, many
Ireland; and it was not until the American war reduced them 'of them- coming a great distance to obtain even
to the lowest extremity that any alteration had been made. -so small a quantity as too stones, and none
He would grant, that within the last thirty or forty years a above a hundred weight, and then sad that when the crop
wiser policy had been pursued. In the words of the Hon. was exhausted, they Mil net know where to go to obtain
Member for Bath, the; had reduced the Irish people to the food. lie was a little surprised at the answer which had been
lowest state of degradation, and on them be the shame of their - given by the Hon. M. tuber for Donegal. with respect to the
fault. They talked of Irish ignorance—who made them igno- depots, along the western coast, he was happy, however, to
rant? Why, had they not enacted that it should be a felony hear, that they were about to put these depots into operation.
for any Roman Catholic to keep a school in Ireland? and on He ebould tell the Government that it would be most
them be the shame of the results. They had made the people important tro. form inland depots. There was another point
what they were, and was it astonishing that they saw the bitter to which he
woult wish to draw attention; the greater portion
fruits rising around them. They had made the Irish people of the people resident in the eistriet from which he came,
what they were, and this was the reason why the power of mainly depended on the sale of their pigs. On January the
Sax.in and English legislation was hateful to Ireland. He re- 14th, he was informed by a person on whom he placed implicit
gretted this, for the English people were a great, a generous, confidence, arid who was in the habit of spending from fourteen
and a charitable people. There was another evil. It was hundred to fifteen hundred pounds on pigs alone, on January
made a charge against the people of Ireland that the gifts of 14th he was not able to purchase one, and in the market of
the English Parliament had been misapplied, and that the money that district to which he had alluded the lair was generally well
which had been sent over for the public works had been mis- attended, but last month there were only nine pigs
applied for the purchase of fire-arms ; and representations had in the whole fair. Indeed, so defective had the supplies front
been made to him as a magistrate, that fire-arms bad been pur- Ireland become, that the merchants and manufacturers were
chased for purposes of violence. But what was the case? Why, obliged to use American beef, although they had a strong
on inquiry, he found that not a single &clock had been pur- disinclination to its use. In fact, the country—the land
chased but for the sake of defence, and that the only itself—bad become greatly impoverished. This truth
purchases had been made far the defence of pro- was forced upon him when he was walking over the
perty ; and at a meeting held at Carberry, where country to see where public works should be
this subject was fully considered, a resolution was come commenced, he chanced to go to a townland, not upon his
to, in which he most cordially concurred, that not a single noble parent's estate, where the people told him that they had
stand of arms had been purchased in the county of Cork, and been accustomed to pay three or four rounds an acre, and for
especially in the neighbourhood of Skibbereen, except for the which he himself would have given that
price at a former' time,
purpose which he had just stated. It was found that only but for which he would bee vet sorry to give ten shillings an
fifteen guns and two pistols had been sold in that neighbour- acre now. He wished the Governmenty
would devise measures,
hood. He was himself the chairman of two relief committees either to compel the laredholders to cultivate the land
in his own county, and he deeply regretted that statements had themselves, or let somebody else do it.—(Hear, hear.)
bean made by many Hon. Members of that House of the In his opinion, if there was to be any enactment to give out-
characters of the Irish people, for he could bear witness that door relief it was not necessary, unless they wished more
no people could have borne this dreadful visitation of Provi- particularly, not utterly to ruin Ireland, but this country also.
deuce better than the Irish people.—( Hear.) Great complaints He said, and said most.sulemnly, that there was no life on earth
had been made of the money appropriated by this country for to him more painful than living among the unfortunate popu-
the relief of the distress in Ireland. Why, in the existence of !anon of Ireland. He had, since he had left his duties in the
such a calamity as this, was no relief to be granted? What did House, been amongst them almost without intermission. He
they do in the case of an insignificant colony of this country— had, during the last ten years, done all that could be done by
the case of Quebec, when an awful calamity befel that city? a man to endeavour to assist these poor people.—( Hear, hear.)
They had at once granted 20,00/. to the inhabitants of Quebec, He confessed that he was disc. uragcd and heart broken at
and when a still more distressing calamity befel a more insiga seeing, after so many }ears of toil and labour, such small tee
St. John's, Newfoundland—they had granted 30,0001. without tu take into consideration, as he was sure he had every reason
hesitation. Was it too much then to grant 4,000,000/. or to hope that they would do, from the kind manner in which
5,000.000/. for the relief of the distress of Ireland, where up- the debate had hitherto been conducted— the state of
wards of two millions of people were suffering the extremity the country—anti to avoid making - any further false steps,
of destitution. In such a case s this they ought to consider Let them determine what should be the pivot on which the ad-
Cork as Bristol, and Waterford as York. They did cot come ministratiou ot that rebel should turn ; let them show the line
to that- House for charity but for that relief to which the Irish of demarcation, or else they could nut expect any private or '
people were fully entitled. Then, as regarded the alteration public benefit either to the country or to individuals, and there -
of the law of real property and the tenure of land, he quite wou d always be the same abuses and distress.
agreed with the suggestions that had been put forward. With Mr. LA itO UCH Eki ft said tat his Noble Friend who had
regard to the compensation to tenants for the improvement just resumed his sea had blame. very severely the conduct of
which they had made on their holds, gs, and her Maje sly's Government with regard to the Labour-rate Act.
he was very glad that the Government lad taken There vain tat in the observations of hi- Noble Friend which
this subject into their consideration, for he believed that grieved bins, and also that which. Le must conleess entirely re-
the tenants wete fully entitled to it. Then, with respect to moved hem his mord any weight or unpleasant feeling which
the project for the reclamation of waste Naas, he differed with she or her argurneats ~I tee Noble Lid -gaoist. the Labour-rate
the Hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. B. Osborne), for he Burl and leer aiajestv's liorerninint might. have produced
believed a wiser or a more prudent course could not have been ties noble Friend Mee told the House that there was no public
adapted. He believed that the money thus expended would wek execioed under ilus Bill -which, in his judgment, was
not only be useful in the employment of the p. asantry, but ii . a per maiient public WI. Ile (i‘.1,.. Labouchere) thought
also in the attaining a 'permanent benefit for Ireland: Then.
,a such an olis,a vatioleona.ot. hardly lo he 'in the mouth of
as respec'ed the adoption el' a poor-law for that -eountry. N. I,le Friend, win), ihthielicect by a Gene of justice, had
believed that it would be one of the greatest benefits for that ~, aaa to bear iestanany iii favour ot the measuresyvhich
country. Ten years ago, he believed he had rood nearly atoll, '., ~ . I th. objee iel his censui `nit's He had heard the
in the advocating of this measure; but 'late experience had r,•, . , r, eller orne sus prise, sir be believed that certainly
shown the benefits that were likely to arise :rum its adoption, , a ~ a fleet- i nal n, re tribuied to this Hill and his loose
and he was rejoiced to find that the Ministry, hail made it e . CO. -: n,,,, .ii al.- wo: ii, eat cartel under him, had
part of their system for the improvement of Ireland. o,a ‘ xa2gt r .ti-d by noiey teeirlienn n who had ad-
He warned the Government 'hat unless they compelled ev‘ay .1. eased the House. lf,s 10-eio: F tend had stated that
landlord to upport the poor on his own property the peor-law tee Chaneelior of tee Ex laq .i i hod pa- ea a sweeping censure
would produce enormous mischief instead of good, an: they on the landlords ~f Lela., :lei their conduet. He did not
would be doing a great injustice upon a large portion of the elude rstatid his Righi h, n. le reini at ail ti, have used the ex-
landed interests of Ireland, There was saarcely an estate, in pression, and ens exoressi 'II of that OeSeiii.tion he (.Mr. La-
bia own knowledge, that could not be properly improved by boiiehere) Was tore (Ma if be Lai diine so, he should by no
the use of a little increased energy and exertion, while in his means have heel. prepared to coheur in ilia, statement. He
own neighbourhood there was not an estate which east hero on: tag las , iii,,,, reotuence in Ire-
could not give employment. There was no subject of land, hat, too inaey tipper., iaes of observing
more vital importance than this, and he trusted Gov erreannt the conduct of the Iron ianalard.s, many al whom he saw
would not loose sight of it. There was one subject more around bins at :hat ni.-e-eat. tic had remained amongst the
he wished to touch upon—namely, railways. He trustee ~Irish during the last tour menths—months of the greatest
Government would remember that the present emergencies of distress. Gentlemen of the greatest oistinceior im that country
Ireland was an exception to the general rule. The people were the first in exertiug them-elves to alleviate it. Hewoans
must be employed in this emergency, and he knew no more well acquainted with many instances of this popular spirit
legitimate way of doing so than by assisting great capitalists tle part of the Irish in general before he was
who had embarked large sums of money in ti.e railways of Ire- with the instances of the eeertien of private
wthat the sub.
land.—( Hear, hear.) He could not sit down without offer- the part of the gentry of Intend ; but2dieienee
h Government in
ing his heartfelt thanks to the charitable and humane people scriptions from many of them hhaed
distressing
circumstances in
of England, who had so liberally come forward to its efforts for the
public,
uHeerthtou ht that admission was quite
assist Ireland in her present difficulties. Such acts which they were placed.
s truth bound him to say, that it
charity
yinteedm
as these would do more to conciliate the feelings consistent with his saying,e a
;:i iof the county which, in their efforts
of the people of Ireland towards this country, than any acts was to certain
' st
odo Governmentin
coars
eP a r IHi a.
the part of himself and his constituents, most cordially thanked spirit w
of that or the other House of Parliament. He, therefore, on to meethtiliche tpreegrm:endntd:dou.slidtihffleaugtinetsr,ycoofupllreediaviridithgetnheeralgleyn, general
the people of this country for the high and charitable
ern,
There were, however, many exceptions, and some of the relief
motives Government- was most materially indebted for assistance.
which had induced them to come forward in the present
give
eh
itthereyMoajtogesitiyt
gency and assist his unfortunate suffering country.—(Hear.)
Mr. LEFROY said, the Honourable en. .
to say that these cases were of many
11.
H.
uncommon occur.
ss - but herence, for extraordinary effects were not:
incoemnrititiltteeessuldvidorntowt
' he should be quite ready to discuss , . to be expected from
proper time, —tle(mHaen'arw.)ho
that
had just sat daWn, had introduced topicsd.which at the did not mean
ordinary persons • but e •
, sucia services had been received from
measures which had certain gentlemen, both distinguished
and noble, and from many
occasion, confine themselves to tlArres.
which,
prevailed. persons for whom as must be permitted to say, that they should, on
as a Member of the Government, he felt a
been prepared for alleviating
t.m'
had
ding gratitude for the spirit and co-operation they
of all other measures
poor-law should have precedence
the sufferings of the Irish afforded uring the last four months. He
The Honourable Member whothu
pro' posed that the I ish
must be ignorant of the extent of
rendered his thanks sincerely to the many noble and
to delay distinguished held front positions
Hon. whoa
ed for alleviating them; while the •
measures that were prepared people, or he could not be so cruel as to attempt
in the party always opposed to her Majesty's Government.
He could not for et. Lord Farnha.m, and Lord Lauton, and
Hon. Member for ISlontrose had urged nothing in favour of
this delay, except that the country ought to be saved the expense others, who had notg hesitated to come forward to assist Govern- .
of maintaining a Lord-Lieutenant. He cared not whether the
Govern-
office were continued or not, but this he knew, that no Lord.-
I happy to see that spirit of moderation prevail. -
merit in any measures proposed, forgetful of all party prejtt-.
Lieutenant more deserved or commanded the confidence and dices. .1 le washich
they might pass and devise measures with.
esteem of the Irish people than the distinguished nobleman
who at present filled the office. With respect to the observe- Theyhad hadalready great difficulties
tonugttevwertiboeltngw able to ex, ricate lre;and from the difficulties
lions of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Member for d with, anti the more lie looked into the matter the
which surrounded her. a
Government had . proposed for alleviating the distress,
Bath, who had entered his protest against every measure
thavrteretheveHryonobuereaoteinganda
enie to e oenten
tremendous' and overwhelming the difficulties be had yet
propositions upper's
sed
prtoop
Learned to decry the exertions which hadbeen made, though he believed
mart
oolovercome appealed.—( Hear, hear.) lie did not state this
ItttleamP
they would be met and overcome by the energy and determined
man entertaining republican principles, but exceedingly :tit of the Legislature.—(llear, hear.) In the course •
unbecoming a gentleman who was a oqpmber of the British whichsprit
the Government had already taken he had been sup.
Senate.—( Hear, hear.) With regard fo the measures them- ported-he was glad to say by Irishmen of all ranks and par.
selves; he certainly did hope that they were calculated to make es—and whatever the present sufferings and distress might
an important change in the condition of the people of Ireland. be, he was persuaded that out of the evil good would arise—
In Committee he had no doubt many amendments would be Hear, ( near, he..r)—and that this would yet carry the country
proposed, and he trusted Government would take
,_, through its press ,t, trials. But they would have an awful
care to give them a favourable consideration. ' 1-le sireggle belle there. - ( Hear, liter ) A good deal of the
was a de•ctded opponent to AY,- A k,ts. and Coercion discussiin of the lost two night had been occupied with dis-
Bills, but he must be
;_;!'wed to ex ire-- a hope that Inramres. • . ;es about the spirit in whic
h Ireland should be treated.
wouldwou be taken to protect the hint- ourking, industrious la- t.lueli had been said which he regretted, though at the
r against the ruffian, who would commit assassination same time he thought that the very great majorit/
upon him, out of revenge for his honestly attd faithfully dis- •