The Sun.
London, England, 1841-03-03 00:00:00

SHERIFF COJJRTS (SCOTLAND).

Mr. WALL ACE rose to move for a Commi tee to in-
quire into the nature and extent of the duties still incum-
bent on the holders of the now nearly sinecure office of
Sheriff Principal or chief stipendiary Judge for each county
in Scotland ; and, also, t s inquire into the nature and
effects of the degrading system under which the above
class of stiperliliary Judge; nominate and appoint
diary deputy Judges, which Judges arc also paid
out of the Exchequer ; and like all other deputies,
are culled upon to perform, and actually do perform,
almost the whole of the highly essenti II and most
laborious duties thus cast upon the useful class of Judge=,
who preside so satisfactorily over the county courts of
Scotland." The Hon. Gentleman commenced by allud-
ing to the County Courts Bill, brought in by the Under
Secretary for the Home Department, which he said
would confer inestimable benefit on the large population
of this country, and he (Mr. Wallace) sought to obtain
the same benefit for Scotland. There were eighty Judges
in Scotland, thirty of whom were sioccutists. By the
Act of Jurisdiction, passed in the reign of George
11. it was provided that the Judges should hold iti .e
rant Courts at different periods of the year. The Crown
had the power to command them to do so ; but such had
Leen the influence of the Irgel profession in Edinburgh,
that they bad never yet performed this most constitu-
tional duty. He did not know how his Honourable
Friend the Secretary for the Home Department could pro-
pose to introduce his system into England, and refuse to
extend the same benefit to Scotland. In that c iuntry
there were two sets of Judges. Those whom be had des-
cribed as sinecurists had very few duti.'s to perform ;
and they were in the habit of nominating deputy
Judges to perform the duties of the office. Could
anything be more monstreus, than that a Judge should
base a nominee Judge to perform his duties ?
He would fell his Learned Friend the Lord Advocate
that there had been very bad appointmerets of those
nomieee Judges, and 'et in spite of that those
Judges were far superior to those wh 3 appointed
th tri. He hal described the thirty Judges as
sieecurists, and he said their duties were of very lit le
importance. Tie Learned Lord opposite was going to
show the House that their chief remaining duty was
of ne importance at all, for be had introduced a Bill, one
of the provisions of which was, that the registration duties
of the Appeal Court should be taken from them, and
given to three persons, to be appointed by the Speaker.
He might be told that the Report of a late Commis-
sion had sanctioned an Act of Parliament for
the improvement of the Sheriffs' Courts, and that
that Commission had given a decided opinion, which
ought to bear strongly against the appointment of the
Committee which be was then moving. He meant to
bring a heavy charge 'against the Commission, inasmuch
as they had not truly abstracted from the Jurisdiction
Act, and they laid the superstructure upon a false, and
he might almost say, a scandalous foundation.
The Hon. Member then read a clause of the Jurisdiction
Ac', and contended that it was demonstrative from that
that the Judges were to make itinerant Courts.
What did the Law Commissioners say ? They stttcd
that the chief benefit of having local Judges war expedition
and cheapness in obtaining decisions. He would advert to
this hereafter, and show that those nice who were appointed
were devoid of those qualification: which were there
alluded to. Then, as to the residence of the Sheriffs, it
was provided that every Sheriff-depute should reside per-
sonally in the county for four months in the year. But
what did the Law Commissioners say in their first Repo' t,
page 62? They added ti! word " substitute" to Sheriff, when
extracting from the Jurisdiction Act, thus givinga false co-
louring to the real terms of that most important statute. He
would venture to say that they bad been ab-
stracted for the purpose of a superstructure
which, if the Committee he asked for was granted to him,
would be overthrown. If the Committee was granted, he
should endeavour to pick out such Members as would do
justice to all parties'. He would now pass on to another
part of the subject, stating only that he had no confidence
in anything that the Report contained. The above took
place under the;first Commission to inquire into the Scotch
Courts ; and the second Commission, which was
granted, was enjoined, among other things, ".to inquire
into the expediency of circuits being performed by a cer-
tain number of non-resident Sheriffs, who should be re-

t YOGI •• ••• • •• •••••
tained..• for the purpose"—that Commission had left this
duty totally unperformed, because they knew that such a
case would be made as would render it incumbent for the
House to inquire into the subject of the Scotch Courts.
The Right lion. Lord Advocate well knew that in place
a requiring the Sheriffs to remain in their county, the Act
only required that they should hold eight sham courts
throughout the year. He called them sham courts, be-
cause they were not public, and, in fact, the public
knew little or nothing about them The Act further
required that the Sheriffs should be practising bar-
risters, and it set up twenty-eight Appeal Courts in Edin-
burgh—which was one of the most preposterous things
that. could possibly be conceived. Another reason why
Ce Learned Lord ought to grant a Committee was,
ti at that House had passed a Bill, four clauses of
which r. galated the duties of those Court, which
duties were conducted in a most unsatisfactory man-
ner, in consequence of the Upper House having
thrown cut those clauses. It was for the honour of the House
itself that a Committee should be appointed, in order to tee
whether degradation had not been inflicted upon that
House by such conduct. It was a fact that these Courts
admitted of what might fairly be called two records, one
consisting of the first set of papers called summons s, de-
fences, and replies ; the second of condescendence and
ans viers—against wLich abomination the four clauses
thrown out by the House of Lords provided. It
was farther fact that no witnesses were ever ad-
mitted into them—that the Judge never delivered a judg-
ment in open
_Court—all his proceedings were carried en
in dumb show, and but for the expense they heaped upon
the country all these proceedings would be a solemn farce.
He had already endeavoured to describe the nature of the
Scotch Judges, of whom there were thirty. He might
probably be told that those Judges were men of high
learning and acquirements—of great professional practice
—men w e'l qualified to act as Judges. But he could tell
the House, from accurate information which be had ob-
tained on the subject, that out of those 30 sinecure Judgeq,
who were old mcn,eight had retired from business altogether,
eleven of them might fairly be called old women, nine
were in pretty fair practice, and two of them presided in
their Courts most beneficially. Here was an anomaly in
the Scotch "Courts which was not in those of any other
portion of the United Kingdom— some of the Judges
were ordered to be in their Courts continually, while
others were order, dto be the r.verse. He ( Mr. Wal-
lace) moved in Committee last year to know how many
haling advocates were at the Scotch Bar. The question
was answered five, and ho had then asked what were their
names, and could he have them. Tho answer was, No. How-
ever, he had learned their names from the witnesses
who gave evidence before the Committee, and be
that not one of the Sheriffs were within the leading
25 J u coudnsee
The Bill before them for England, which gave
wagsts,
o
was an excellent one, and the Hon. Under Se
dr yeraeota
if there
move to-night Lt. funds to pay those Judger,e
were net sufficient funds for that purpose,
fh (Mr
J_.oW.)
would show him where there were plenty o spare dges
and spare funds too. Hoover, he would
for not propose f
d.o
England what he thought unfitanr
He had learned from the Hon. Member for Bandon, who
was on the Committee of last year, and who paid the
w be subject, that in Ireland there
closest attentivn

•
were only 34 Judges. What then could be the necessity
for 50 in Scotland ? 19 of that number were incitc-
petent to discharge their dutie=, 9 or 10 eii I their duties
well as barristers, but they did no duties as public Judge,.
itwas a mere farce, it was a positive moelsyty, a s)ste,-n of
patronage to which the public money ought Oct to be devoted.
In Ireland they had thirty-four Judges receiving an
average of 500/. a-ye Ir each, while in Scotland they
had thirty Judges receiving an average of 7001. n-
year each. Thee Judges had fifty nominees who re-
ceived among them 20,150/. r-}ear. making 41,0001. In
Scotland they [fad
to pay
fees
on each sentence of transport -
tion, although the sentence had Lever been carried into
effect. That he thought wizs a posi,ive waste of publ c mone:..
If the regi•tration fees were taken away from the Scotch
Judges his work would be done. But be knew why
the present Lord- Advocate. like his predecessors,
opposed all reform in the Scotch Judges, and
indeed he did not believe that any Lord Advocate would be
returned to that House jibe stood out boldly for a thorough
re Isrmation of the Scotch Courts. lie had endeavoured to
show the House that a Committee ought to be appointed,
and he should eetts.rily divide the House upon it. 11.!
hoped those Gentlemen who intended to vote
against him would be ab!e to tell their constituents why
they would not have the Scotch Courts improved ; but
be should be surprised if and' man got up and said those
Costa; wet e not capable of irnproveme.,t. He was not
willing that Scotland should be degraded, and the
people plundered for the mere sake of pa•ronage,
a much higher value being :et upon it than the thing ss as
worth, even when a contested election came. He
concluded by moving for the appci itment of
" Committee to inquire into the nature and extent of the
duties still incumbent on the holders of the now nearly si-
necure office of Sheriff Principal, or Chief Stipendiary
Judge for each county in Scotland ; and also to in-
quire into the nature and effects of t'se system
under which the above class of Stipendiary Judges no-
minate and appoint Stipendiary Deputy Judges.
Mr. GIL LON seconded the motion.
_ _

The SPEAKER hearing put the question,
The LORD ADVOCATE sail that the Hon. Gen-
tleman hld ventured to state, in submitting his motion
without the least particle of evidence, that the system
uncle: which a class of officers, upon whom
he had Lestowed great praise, but not more than
ea: due to them, was nominated and appointed, saes
in itself a degrading system.—( Hear, hear.) It was
at least satisfactory to him, and he knew it
could be so to the people of Scotland as well as to that
House, to know, that in whatever manner that Ho-
nourable Gentleman might choose to characterise the
system of their appointment, he was obliged 'to confess
that they were a most useful class of officers, and that
they discharged most onerous duties with honour and
credit to themselves, and satisfaction to all. Hear,
heir.) He confessed that, on looking at the terms
of the motion, with the experience he Lai had of ti.e man-
ner in which the Hon. Gentleman conducted his motions,
he was not at all surprised at the tone and temper with
which h e hail entered into the discussion of this subject,
but he did not think it worth while to reply in that tine
and temper. The Hon. Member had used very strong
language with reference to the Sheriffs themselves,
which be (the Lord Advocate) knew could be rebutted
in Scotland. He had said that his Noble Friend
had stated that he was willing to grant the Committee
of Inquiry if the House should thick it right; that might
be so, but he (the Lord Advocate) thought he had sufficient
firers, the statements of the Hon. Member himself to condemn
him. He had stated that no person who Lad attacked the
merits of the system of the Sheriffs aid Judges in Scotland
were secure of their seats in that House; in short, he had
told him (the Lord Advocate) that he could not exercise his
own judgment, or speak Lis own mind, for if he
did ht knew tie system was in such repute in
Scotland that those who attacked it could not
be secure of their se it, and yet i.e had told him
that this was an improper system in Scotlaur.
He thought the system of the Sheriffs' Comte which the
Hon. Member did not at ail comprehend, had all
along given great satisfaction in Scotland. A Commission
had been geanted, and witnesses examined butt', in the profe
sion and out of it, and every one was in favour of the system.
The Hon. Gentleman had taken advantage of his position
in that House to accuse a Commission, of which he was
one, of bring guilty of misrepresentation for a pur-
pose. He (the Lord- Adsoeaee) would not retali ate.
He could not say he spoke out of the abundance
of his knowledge, nor would ho say anything furtier
than that he spoke out of the abundance of his ig re-
ranee. He had heard no grounds male for the motion
except one, and that was a mere assertion of the Hoe.
Gentleman ; he said there ought to be inquiry, be-
cause the 3,e3ple in Scotia id were in general much
dissatisfied with the system as it worked in Scotland.
Now he would put it to any Scotch Member present whe-
ther that was the fact. He really thought it unnecessary
for him to detain the House by entering into any
details of the Sheriff system in Scotland. He might,
however, be permitted to say, in every county is Scotland
there was an officer called Sheriff Depute—it was
formerly proposed that he should reside four
months in each year in his county; but a very high
authority at that time strongly objected to that ;ar-
rangement, as be thought it would be much preferable ill at
he should always reside in Edinburgh, the bead-quart, ra
of the law. There was in every county, however, a local
Judge called the Sheriff Substitute, vsh3 regularly
resided in his county, and administered justice there.
He should be sorry to see the local administraebn cf
justice entrusted, without any control whatever, to
officers having from 3001. to 4001. per annum salary,
and -subject to all the local influences of
the society in which they moved. These influences were
best counteracted by their acting under the control of
another Judge residing in .Edinburgh, and altogether
beyond that influence, while at the same time he
was responsible for the acts of the local officer.
Now, if they allowed the local Magistrates to be solle-
rated from the great system of law which prevailel in
Scotland, they would create great confusion,
and such a step would operate most in-
juriously against the due administration of justice.
He contended that the Hor. Gentleman hid entirely
failed to show that the Judges did not perform their duties
in the most satisfactory mariner. Though he had called
them sinecurists very high duties were attached to their
office, and their performance of their duties had always
reflected the highest honour upon them.
Mr. HUME said he thought the Learned Lord bad
quite misunderstood his Hon. Friend. His Hon. Friend
had shown that there were 30 persons who had scarcely any
duties to perform, and he argued that there was great re aeon
for improvement in the system. The Learned Lord
said that this system had existed 160 3 ears, and therefore
it must be a good one. Why, it appeared to
him (Mr. H.) that the existence of any Court for one
hundred years was a very strong reason why it should
be considered.—( A laugh.) His Honourable Friend
had not complained of the manner in which jus-
tice was administered by the local and Learned Judges ;
on the contrary, he stated, both last bear and the
year before, that they did the business admirably,
but that they were not remunerated as compared with the
principal in Edinburgh. His Hon. Friend had recommended
former occasions—he was now anxious to obtain proof in
support of his views—that the local Judges should be
placed on a more respectable towing. Thu appointments
being in the hands of the Sheriff were more likely to be
political then if left to the nomination of the Secretary of
State. He ( Mr. Hume) thought these Judges would get
through nearly all the business cf the counties if they were
adequately paid. Ample means might be found, if they
curtailed the numbers of those who were next to sine-
curists. He was not sure that one indisidual in Edin-
burgh could not hear all the appeals from all the counties
in Scotland, and if so a great amount of money paid to
the sinecurists would be saved, and what was more, there
would be a uniformity of decision. Ho therefore thought
the Learned Lord, knowing he had a weak case, had
been anxious to shirk, and he certainly had succeeded
in doing so, the strongest and most important part of his
Hon. Friend's argument. He was sorry to say that he
looked back to every thing which had been done for the
last hundred years with great distrust..—( Great laughter.)
He thought they were wiser in these days than people
were a hundred years ego.—( Hear, hear, and renewe I
laughter.) If knowledge hae been pregNssive he could
not understand why decisions a hundred yea-s old should
be binding now, if it was seen that something better could
be done. The Learned Lord therefore had not grappled
with the point, that instead of thirty Judges being mt in-
tained as Judges of Appeal, a simple Court of Appeal,
consisting of one or two Judges, should be farmed. Son.e
of the Lords of Session had not much to do—( Hear, hear)
—and they might with great propriety be appointed Judges
of Appeal, especially as their salaries had been raised last
Session. He hoped that the Hon. Member would see
that the people of Scotland were entitled to have justice
given them in the most expeditious way, and to have busi-
ness done at the lowest possible expense. That Hou e
bad decided that sinecures should cease—why then, he
would ask, should sir ecures be kept up in Scotland?
His Honourable Friend ( Mr. Wall ice) had, he
thought, made out an excellent case.—( Hear, hear.)
They were under great obligati ins to his Honourable
Friend for the perseverance with which he had brought
that subject under the considere,i an of the House. Year
after year he endeavoured to ben( fit the c ,untry, by point-
ing out the abuses of the system which was now the sub-
ject of discussion.
an iSca brrPre:lassirrfe- salary,-
Mr. GIL LON contended that. the Hon. Member (Mr.
at
Wallace), in endeavouring to' remedy the abuses of the
Sheriff system in Scotland, had both justice and righte
reason on his side, yet he (Mr. Gillon) feared from,,th
tribunal to which he had to appeal that be hadlrnclahpe
of success, because he always found a wonderful
rtiog
inci-
dence between the two great parties
sine-
cures. His Hon. Friend who spoke lasint,
whichrte referred
hadto
the abuse of the increase in the Judges'
oufdgthe
ellocno)uittthryoucgobutidtb
ba
et
so takenme additionalplace l ast
duties,yea r,
oand a
account
eMrerb.y
Gillen)
ought to be imposed on them,
tyboafdbeanm relievedentioneodf. thTosheerethirty s sat n e%c.ounred
wonderful
lessi
mwihliaerrhi
and that similarity of set._
matters such as the present,
senti-
ment between the two leading parties in the House, on
ent would continue as long as patronage and profit
lin-
cou'ld be held out by them to their adhereets.—( Hear.)
He did not wonder at the cheers from the other side of the
House. The party on that side of the House were no
doubt looking to a speedy return to office, and to the abi-
lity of bestowing their patronage on some of the Tory
lawyers of Edinburgh. He (Mr. Gillon) understood his
Hon. Friend to have stated that at Leith cr Edinburgh no
man presenting himself to the electors had a chance of be-
coming their representative unless he was the subservient
tool of the clique who upheld the patronage system. The
Noble Lord had said it was the opinion and wish of the
profession that the Judges sh auld receive large salaries;
abpurgti
mrsocuwlcpihnlwwaoas
ps
innaoi
ots
sinecure,
eienuorpesi
,rcioaotnnl
daonfdt
tahhtea
tct
the
tuchn
etmroyofir
more
office of
here was
was abolished the better. A return moved for bypofetiendSihHlyeorniiff-t.
Member showed the number of appeals from Sheriffs
Substitute to Sheriffs Principal, These were consider,
able in amount ; but, on the other hand, the number of
reversals was small, and the duty fright easily
have been performed by the Lords Ordinary.
He could not help thinking it somewhat any-
_

VENING. E

S
‘
TeA,
iy •
;. I A
' 4.!

inalous that the Lord Ache caAk.--':\iif
r. 1 Alinini,tration should be greeted with.speligud-efreirs •
be the Tories oppreite ; and he (Mr. Gilloa).,thoo,ght tai t
was prima.theic ev dence agnioct Li; case. The Learned
Lord, 11- ris reply, had stated nothing to show what
other duCes were performed by these sinecure officers.
He Enew there was a feeling in Scotland that those offiecs
were sinecures, and that tie mode of appointment was de-
grading, and such was his opinion ; and be should there-
fore vote wi,h hia floe. Friend.
Sir G. CLERK thought there vas nothing in the
stag !lieut. of floe. Mernbcr ft r GicAtock that re-
qtfred any answer. If he could believe the Hon. M tuber
for Ktlienny, the systeoi of Courts in Sco Lind
was inadequat r the demaut's if justice, and t! at this
was the opinion cf a large portion of tie people But be
(Sir G. Clerk) believed that every person ecius i ited
with Scotland was prepared to give a di ect
denial to that statement, and to state, on tie contrary,
that it worked well, and gave general sari...faction, And
on Li; own behdr, and from his own exptrieare. ne was
enabled to say chat tlte grease t hent.Ct was derived to
Scotland f osn tto She. A,' Courts of tin t ountry,—
( Hear, bear.) The lien. Menibi r fir Kilkenny had
s t' at he had no ievetence f r an, t established one
hundrAl years egr. lie (Sir G. (.1. re) belevel
goldea age of ti e lion. Member ti I not extend farther
bac:lce:ad than 1792.—(Leugl ter.) lie agreed it, eve y
wcrd th t from the Learned Lerd-Advoc de as to the
advantages which resulted from the Sheriff.: comirg
lit, contact with their trethren of tie law is the Su-
perior Courts. Bfo e the Act was passed which re-
quired the Sheriffi to be lawyers, and to to ice in Edir,
burgh four months of the year, tie Shet i f 3 were country
gentlemen totally ignorant of la v, and their administra-
tion gave con.hual dissaeisfaction. The Right Hon.
Gentleman complained of the ternis in which the Hon.
Gentleman had put his motion on the papers of the
House, %deal I c well knew would circula'e throughout
Scotland, and create a prejudice against the administra-
tion cf justice in that country, and lower the position
of the Judges in the estimati di! public.
Mr. R. STEUART could not approve rf the
crichate censure which his Hun Friend, the "introducer
of tie motion, had hen el en the Judges who presided in
the Scottish Courts ; although I e could not, but disk
with him tat the nuther of Judges [right be concee!eetly
diminislel. While, therefore, i.e would f2el it his duty
to vote &r the motion of his Hon. Friend, he repuliated
the i.ersonal ettacks he had made ; and though he thought
that much in the present system eat good, he thought
that ie. might in theory be smiceptible.of very considerable
improvement.
Sir R. .Ph; EL s i 1 that, so far as ho bad been.able to
form at ouilion on the local administraVon ,Of,jultice in
Scotland, h's imp:csiion was that theprtehscet,ntzeastsei: wan
r
satisfactory, although it might be capable of parthiTim-
proven:cut o He did not, therefore, ore
a Committee of liicv.iry it to the suhje.t and he was of
opinion that such inquiries night tend to shake the
authority of the Judges, which N7ould certain'y be a most
sir:ous evil. He thought that the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman the Lord Advocate had adduced the most con-
vincing reasons why they should nut accede t the me-
tion, and why they shotll not seek to change the
re...sent law in repect to the administration
urbi
lc p
o
justice. The Honourable ald Learned Member must
however, have felt hhnseif wae putting
icrward his epi' ins ; for, on 114 left, he might have seen
the Hoe. Gentiemae (M-. Fox Mail ), the author of the
County Courts' and on his right Ile! Node Lord,
the auth ( f the Registration Bill. Ile (Sir R. Pt eh)
wished the H n. and Le irned Gentieman would use the
same force of argumetit he had titae:cuingdi.splay el in
opposition to thole me ,sures.—(Laug -t le)
Mr. F. MAUL E fe..t bound to objet to the motion,
from the very woe. ieg of the notice. ft had now gone
ferxiird to tie pub![,: of Scotland, and were he now to
came .t to tto appointment of its Comn i to: le would he
giv.ng some caut.tesance to the th eges it contained.
The app i ,or ettef a Ceelm.tee would catry with it a
suspicion tie,t there was somcC.i ig wrong. It there was
any toitg glaringly wrong it must in t ally come glaiir g),
before tie public, aed then it would le t e bounder[ duty
of tie Executive to come ft r Nerd with a on e Iv. Let the
Hon. Metiber bring fot wai rl his proj ,et i r tl e :haee of a
Bill, and they would know wli:e they hail to meet, and let
the ques ito he settled. Tie present plan i f the lion.
Gentleman was eminently calcult cl to iejuie the adminis.
tration if c liw in Sco•1

Mr. WA LL ACE replied. 112 had eeCg-e ily worded
his moti in as it stood, faccause.eve.l word i. contained was
true.—k Oh, oh.) It was ;he a ihered to every word of it.
There was in Scotland a universal desire fir an alteration
in thu system. With regard to appeals, the two Judges
for Peebles and Bute had only two and a half epee its be-
tween them.—_(A laugh.) The Right Hon. Geetlernan
would not give him a Committee, because he kneceteat the
eff..et would be to pult down the whole of tne mischi rf. If
irist.rad of these thirty useless men, thy hid twenty-6%1r
Judges, whose duties were proFerly regt,:a.ed, the busi_
nt es would be fir more efficiently performed. It would
depend upon the House whether the ceunsel which had
been tendered would he us,ful. lie proposed to ;I er the
terms of his motion, and to suggest it to the House in the
fcllcoair g form !—.." Committee to irq .ire into the nature
and extent of the dut:e; still ineurneent on the ofil:re of
She 4f- Principal, or Chief Slipendiary Judge for each
county in Scotland ; and also to inqu're into tl.e nature
and effeos of the system under which the above class of
stipendiary Judges norninete and appoint stipendiary De -
put); Judges."
Stringers were htn ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided, when tle e appeared
Ayes
Nees
Maj.:l4c against the mreian — 49
On our r -adn icsi,n to the gallery, we fueled Mr.
WALLACE on his legs stating that he should not press
his other resolutions atter tee decision of the House.
The resolutions were then with irawr.
111. A YNOO rn COLLEGE.
Mr. COLQUHOUN then rose for the puipoec of
roo‘i ig for I.aye to bring in a Bill to alter and emeriti
the Acts of ins Irish Parlian e it relating to the Coll,ge
of Mayno;:th, tl.e 35th of Geo. 111. cap. 20, and the
40th of Gee. 111. cap. 85. He approached the question,
of ul icb he had gi. en notice, with great anxiety and re-
luctance, not because he thought the subject was one un-
deserving the consideration of Parliament, but because it
had been made the there're of strong religious feeling, and
because it would be thought by some persons on thu ether
side of the House that it was intcnded to attack
their religi est Lei iciplee. He trusted that he should be
enabled so to put it to the House as to eh-est it cf such a
ch;racter, and that the di,cussion of it might be. approached
without any religious asperities. He must confess that he
had never yet been able to give a vote against the grant
to the College of Nlaynooth, and far this reason tecause be
found tl.at tee grant to the College had been continued
f. r a lo: g series of years under 'eery important Acts of
Parliament, and then fore it would not become the House
to withdraw a grant so constituted without serious censide-
retion, and secondly I.e thought the Acts were cf such a
nature as not to auteorise the lieuse to interfere without
first a'terieg those Ac F. By the first Act, to which he
alluded, tvrenty.ono trtetees of the Col!ege were appointed,
eleven of whom were laymen, aid ten ecclesiastics. By
the second Act the vision cf the College were consti-
tuted, among whom were the highest functionaries of the
realm, the Chancellor of Ireland and the Judges ; and the
LerJ Lieutenant who represented the Sovereign in that
cmetry, was appointed to receive the Report, to receive
and record the rules., to apprc ye rf the rules, and to op-
epvoe'nryt
otnhee
tPhr,ietsipdaernitia.
melntt mh
audi tg,
vtehne r
de
ifroercet,
sbeeneotibovniotuosthtoe
College of Maynooth, and therefore when they were asked
year atter year to vote against that grant to the College, he
felt bound to say, finding those Acts sanctioned the College,
that the firsts ep to Le taken was to alter and amend the
Acts, in orecr t i remove the sanction which had been
given, Hn wishel it to be understood di:tireay that when
he spoke of the alteration, he did not mean any alteration
depriving the Col'ege cf Maynooth of' any ptivate grants.
He spoke only of the sanction given by the Act to the
College of Maynooth, and he would put it to those who
d sage( ei with the grants to the College whether the al-
teratian to which he tat alluded ought not first to take
He had no doubt that on the other side* would
be sail, what reason was there for such alteration?, He
found those reasons in the Act; c f Parliameet themselves.
These Acts evidently contemplate) two thing', inn such
was the intention of Mr. Pitt. They
fie ens control on the part of the )city ohvotr clergy,tetofe
and they contemplated) a corerol
l'ics°becnslifouldrixe able to
contemplated a suf
Government. Now he thought that be
was
pr(
f.2gged,
it
,fy the House that while that
Ace:lt,
it controllwas
provided that
and
therefore,) s e v eu ea es
was not possessed. By the fieltuld
be
laymen • there were
the majority of the trustees h
tw,o uu nl
TheAt The trustees so constituted
trnhaern tcnathecoclilcesli:ysmt:casn,.
(levee to ten under that 'Act.
won efficient control. They ap-
pointedhad in that College
upthe rules. But,
one
made by the next Act, the Act
change eves
and
much frusta ed 'he views of Mr,
Other
antrdusrteeeus.
Pitt and the Roma
f,,ituna.etbiye,
Catholic Professors, and
Croprafheei.,toble.ificr3s;twbbeiwetehtri'ernyvpiosiwtoerrs,of
fuarniediegtle.eew
of 1800,
The m
d a
laymen. w
trustees wera divided into two parties.
d
three were Protestaits, and two Roman
turn to that Act they would find a most material altera-
• was transferred to the tiand g
lateens . they were
altogether Roman Catholics, four.fifths being Roman
Catholic ceslesiastics, with power to fi 1 up
their number
as any vacancies arose. So that i istead of
theobject
Mr
Pitt hid in view, the Act of 1800 turned thevisitation.
uto a farce. divested the visitors of all power, and handed
t over to the trustees Now, if it were wise that such a
College as Mr. Pitt established should exist, and over
which the Government should exercise a vieorous control,
such an Act as that of 1800 should not stanch. If any
lion. Member thought that these powers and that control
should he restored, then that Hor. Member was bound to
support his (Mr. Colquhoun's) motion; because otherwise
they could not proceed a step. Whatever course was to
Le adopted, the first step was to brilg in the Bill which
he now n.oved for. It might he said 'that' by such an
alteration, by removing the Lord-Lieutenant from all
exion of the Judges and dignitaries of the !bud,
control over the College, and by removing the con-
they would be placing Maynnoth on -the likale
footing as the Be'fast Academy, and that would
le thereby depriving it cf the very important Sanc-
tion it deoved from its connection with the Crown and the
Judges. He admitted it would do so, aud• that it would
appeared to him a strong tecommendseion
of
iceoanvsethcC:nllf,"e of Maynooth naked and iscl act! to the
id,,iati Parlianne when any grant was proposed.
Thtahte, hioanw:v,nrd,
he thought the ti e war come (lOolting
at
the language of the petitions that had peen presented
from la.-ions parts of the country) when the dissatisfaCtion
pa
and distrust that existed out of doors, as to the system
purseed in the College of Map:ooth, should find an
echo and a I...sponse 19 that House, It..was time,
that the sanction gin Ns by the Government to Maynooth
Eihould to withdrawn. If the House would allow him to
refer to the foundation
of the College of Maynooth, and
the eemraet which it was stated by the 'lon. and Learned
Member for Tipperary existed under the Act cf Union,
be thought he should be able to them them tl at a very
different conclusion was to tl f-om these circum-

37
86

VRMING EDITION!

itandos to what was deduced by many Hon. Members.
The compact on which the College of Maynooth was
founded was established betwcee three parties. The eve
Was the Roman Catholic laity, who were very anx'cus
for the establishment of a College for the education of the
Catholic clergy. On the other side, a desire was ex-
pressed and evinced be the Roman Catholic hierarchy,
who desired that Maynooth should be a College for the
general purposes of education; and in a document drawn
up by Mr. Keogh, on the part of the Roman Catholic
Committee who represented the Roman Catholics of
belied, it would appear that the,r views were, that
taci persons should be excluded on account of their religi us
oreinions; that the College shall depend upon the peopte
for its supitert, and be subject to the joint control if the
clergy and laity. The v.ews of Mr. Pitt were altogether
unequivocal; ,and on the 23d of April, 1795, leave was
given to bring in a Bill for applying the sum of 10 0001.
to establish a College, the object of which was the bett r
education of persons professing the Roman Catholic reli-
gion, and intended f,r tl e clerical mini-try there_.f. The
lot point had teen introduce I surreptitiously, for the Bill
was under tie conduct of a very clever man, Mr. Haasey,
and when introduced by him was limited to education ;
but tbo 'moment the Government discovered th,t the
B:11 had :ha- title, it was instantly withdrawn.—( Hear.)
The Crailege xas to he under the charge of lay teen as
well P eccletiletica, and there was to be not a College f
ti.e education of ecclesiastics alone but one for the jeint
cdemation s f laymen and ecclesiastic?. The Roman Ca-
tholic laity wished.that Protestants as well as Roman Ca-
tholics should he educated in the College, but Mr. Pitt,
who saw too clearly the abuses to which that would lead,
refused to sanction that plan. Bet upon those two pciats they
agreed--best, that the College should be a general one for
ecelestatti.is and laymen; and, secendly, that it should be
uni4.er the control of laymen as well a, ecclesiastic!, and,
iv point of fact, as he (Mr. Celquhoun) had alre rdy
eh awn to the House, laymen formed the majority of the
first Board whe took charge of the College. Now, the
whole of that system—that wise system—teas eat:, ely
changed at the present time. The College no longer ex-
isted, as Mr. Pitt bad designed i•, for the education of
laymen as well as eceleritstics, and under the control of
laymen as well as ecclesiastics. But at the present use.
meat t! e College was solely under the superinteedence of
ecclesiastics, who possessed all the posters of appaiefng
professors, &c., and even the power of the exclusion of
vis.tations—for no visitation was toleaatcd by the Roman
Catholic disciplire. The compact between the British
Minister and the ecclesiastics of In 1 tad was broken, and
it eat of the utmost importance to Government to know
TLe compact was broken by those who elterei the
College of Maynooth, in which, at the present moment,
no lay education was carried on ; ccelesiasticel
education was established exclusively, and the en-
tire coat:a was placed in the hands of ecclesiastics.
The compact thirefere between Mr. P.tt and the Roman
Catholic laity of the country was broken. He was bound
to :ay that as matters now stood, the position of Maynooth
was or.e of very serious alarm, and certainly well-founded
ei,sa,i,faction t t the people of this country. Without any
:allusion to the cilierencaa tetecen the Roman Catholic
and the Prete dant laity on this question, there was a dis-
tinc.ion in the It'man Catholic Church, and a diiticcti in
of inost material importance to this country between two
shedes of opinion that prevailed there. He alluded to the
patties charactet iced in that Church as the Montaan-ts and
ul r -Mantaeists.—( Hear, hear, from Mr. O'Connell.)
Ti.e Hor. and Learned Gentleman opposite cheered.
Did he ti ink that a matter c f no consideration ? He
(Me Col. quhoun) thought it a matte.- to be considered
by the whole of the S.ates of Europe. There was a Com-
mittee of that Howe appointed in 1816, to ieve•tigate
the position which the Ro.nan Catholic Church occupied
in tee sa ious couutrie.s of Europe. The Report of that
Committee 1 raught out those significant fac:a, that a con-
federacy, such as the ultra-Montane system—a confe le-
raey possessing laws and c woos by oafish Bishops were
bound to a central conference—eaeons, by which Pi 'hops
were bound to eaforce the oh,e.vation of certain laws
within the country of which they were citizens—a confe-
deracy peasearing such power scented so formidable to all
the States of Europa, that they teak those precautions
against conaeqm.rices likely to result from it. They
would not allow any resctipt from Rome without i:s being
seen by tl:e Secre•ary of Stats for that country into which
it was to be iterardoced. They would rat sallow any com-
munication to pass tete eel the central conference and the
Bishops of that c runtry, tt i'hout its Laving been sir a
by the Seerrtary of St ce. They would not allom the ap-
pal: tut. nt of the Bishops to be vested in any hinds but
tit i • owe. They, in fact, rcsolved, and executed that rc-
soluticu, that there should nit exist in their own dornieions
a Church whit It dial tact own any close connection v ith the
iSt.ta. and which had a close and direct connection wit')
a foreign Power. Such wire the Galliean liberties for
wl ich, in Frantic, the French wisely con'ended. Such
was the Itw in Austria—such the Itw in Rusei e and such
the law in Prussia. In no one of the count ies of Europe
was it tolerate] that the appointment of Bishops t f the
Church should be vested with the sea of Rome. But the
rescript of the Pope passel into that ceuntry (Irtlsnd)
without using seen by the Sacre'ary of State.—(" lit aa,
hear," from Mr. O'Connell). He (Mr. Colquhoun)
must say that, notwithstandiag the cheers of the Hoe. and
Learned Gentleman opposi e, those States had adopted
a wise course. He would show the House, from the opi-
nions of Lord Castle: Tub, who was a long time the
distinguished advocate of the Catlad;cs—(Hear, from
Mr. O'Connell)—Lord Casilereagh war, he must n prat,
a long time a moat ardent supporter a Catholic Emanci-
pation. He would show from the opinions entertained by
that Minister that great danger was to be apprehended
from the system (ultra-Moetane) to which he had alluded.
Lord Callereagh did not speak his own opinions only,
but ia his speech on the subject in 1810 he adverted to
the opiei ens of Mr. Pitt as coinciding with lis( L rd
Calle:cagh's), and Mr. Pitt, he should say, was a else
auther.ty on the subject. It was h's with tett the Carp

lies sheuld continue to be such, but that they shou'd cue-
tect themselves with ther own Government, and lia've no
dependence upon fsre;gn Powers. The Hoe. Gentler! a I
then quoted the opieions of Dr. Doyle and Dr. 11.11 a e
rcsiecting the a:ceptance by Romer, Cathol.cs of rh! Bulls
of the Pope, rvl Lth were opposed to the laws of
the country in which they lie ex) eeted
to he.r from the Honourable and Learned Member
from Dublin that these were quesions which belonged
to other ages a-:d to a different state of societ,e But he
had the authority of a F ich nobleman and a Roman
Catholic, the Count de Mout d'Oeiers, that in 1816 the
confederations of the French priests, under the name of
Sodalities, became formidable to the Government; and in
the previous ye_r, in a country to which the lion. and
Learned Member Iva; fond of referring, the Catholic
Bishops of Belgium made a protest t ► the King cf the
Nab, rtalds, declaring the.. the canonical law, which was
sanctioned by the ancient laws of t te country, were oe-
posed to the measures agreed to in the States, and that it
it were at 2mpted to enforce those Inca:urea, and the King I
would not follow their advice, they would pl,ce thcrusel, es
in c rlliaion with the authorities, and would stir up the
people against the Government.—( Hear.) Now ev.iiy-
body knew whit had been the consequences of that t1e:.:13.
zat'on in Belgium. At all events Mr. Pet intended that
the Co 1 ge of Maynooth should be founded and conducted
on d,ffete,e and more sound and literal principles. Ile
had not teal to the Hoese any passages from the works
studied in the Ccllege of Maynooth, but this he would
say, that authors who taught the doctrines most opposed
to the tivll rights of the Crown, to the laws of the coun-
try and the Fence of the State, were the authors who were
read, and whose doctrines setre inculcated in the minds of
the students. Among the books return, d as those studied
at the Career., founded with a view to liberalize the Ito-
laze Catholics, were the works of Be'larminc, Thomas
Aquinas, and others, in which were to be found the fel-
lowing duct, roes :—" He tvlio owes anything to a here ie
by means of purchase, promise, pledge, deposit, loan,_or
other c attract, is, ipso facto, fie e from the contract, and
not bound to redeem his tilted faith, even though under
an oath'.''—(oll, oh!) If lion. Gentlemen douleei his
oerreetness, they would find the passage in the s:h Book
of Deeretals. Dr. Slevein, in page 220, said—" All who
separate from the body of the Roman Catholic Church are
excommunLeted. The Roman Catholic Church has the
spiel ual authority ever Protestants as over Catholic:."
Dr. S'evein did not positively assert there should be a con-
fiscr.tion of property, yet the authorities referred to as
studied at t Coll •ge, int:, the minds of Vie t.i-
dents 01 there abornira; le doctrines._('' oh, „b r, from
Mr. O'Connell.) No doubt the Hon. and Learned Go.-
tl•tmari truly and sincerely repudiated such dectrines, but
what he (Mr. Colquhoun) regretted was, that they should
be inculcated i I the Co I've Was the object cf Mr. Pitt
thereby attained ? And if why were such books as
the svcandum secunthv of Thomas Aquinas is their hands?
The Noble Lord the S,,creeary for Ireland said, in the
last debate on this subj et, that he did not think it impor-
tant t ► exa nine what books were read at the College cf
Maynooth. Now, he was persuaded that if it were shown
that doctrines similar to those he had referred to, bal
cheen
protnula'ed in the University of Oxford or of am-
bridg, they wouldmeet with the vehement denunciation
of II n. Gentlemen opposite. Those doctrines tend to
in
dissolve the bend of society ; and the books noewnui.sned.3
11a)nostia hal a most pernicious influence on th_.
There
the e!ergymen educated in that College. '11? 48
therefore a marked d,fferenee batten the Catholic clergytn
of Ireland at the present day and the clergymen of
celier period. That feet had been admitted by the Hon..
and Learned Gentleman for Dublin himself, in his ev:-
deuce given before a Committee of the House in the year
1825, The Hon. and Learned Gentleman spoke as fol-
lows on that occasion :—" The priests who were educated in
France were old, I may ray, when I became a man. They
had a natural abhorrence of the French Revolution, which had
bort e so much on the Catholic clergy. They were strong
anti-Jacobins. By this means there were among them a
good deal of what were called ultra-royalists, but with the
priests educated in Maynooth the anii Jacobin feeling
was dying away. They are more identified with the
people, and they do not come within the phrase of loyal-
ista so much as the priests educated in France." Mr.
Dennis Browne stated in his evidence that "the Catholic
priests of Ireland were not the same men they were when
t
he first knew them ;" and Mr. Inglis said, that l in his
journey through Ireland be had found the old foreign
educated priests of that country gentlemen, and men of
frank and easy deportment and general information, but by
no means in general such good Catholics as their brethren
of Maynooth. The litter were men of stiff and rigi I , Ira
might be men versed in ~toolracters, and though they
they were profoundly ignorant of all that cool! leerier
the mind more liberal. They were but z, alms in religion
and men full of a sense of their own conpquence. [le
had no doubt that the change originated in the system
pursued at Maynooth. It was that system which made
the priests agitators ; and if at present a foreign educated
parish prieit happened to be too liberal minded a man and
leas a biter of Protestants, a substitute was
seat in his stead ready hot from Maynooth, and the
old priest was virtually disgraced." These extracts
winoumldaypronnovetht.he
lenvilncooncsences of system pursued
the
in
spain_wasthe
spirit
of
Popery retry is Europe—not even t
intensely anti-Protes.arr
as in Ireland; and it wasmtst" important to the eivieae.
tion and peace of that country that betteri order of Ca-
tholie fpnests should be eaablishead.
been used to an unparalleled extent by. etimidation had
the priests in Irc- I
land at the elections 6f 1835. Parties were held up to I 1

execration, and denounced from the al'ar in consequence
of the votes they had given. That was a system perfectly
consistent with the doctrines inculcated at Maynooth; but
he woeli ask the House and the people of this country if
they would allow such a system to be continued. No one
wished that any man professing the Raman Catholic faith
should be, after the Act of 1829, in a worse posi-
tion than a Protestant. They were placed, wisely
as he thought, on the same footing, but be com-
plained that tile priests should be allowed to denounce
from the altars those who exercised as they thought fit
their civil rights. Other Roman Catholic States had
peremptorily forbidden those excommunications on matters
of a temporal nature, and they were neither tolerated in
Austria, Prussia, or France. No man in those countries
could use religion for any other than religious purpose!.
He conceived that the principles of the Roman Catholic
prests of Ireland proceeded from the system of eduction
adopted in Maynooth. It was natural to suppose that
when young men entered the college at a time of life
when they weie most susceptible of impressions, and ell ,n
they witnessed frothing but the most barbarous and et•
ploded tyranny, aid doctrines the most obnoxious to the
rights of the subject and the allegiance due to the Crowo;
it was natural to suppose that they should themselves be-
come intolerant. But he said that was a system which
Parliament ought to inteif re with, and which should
not receive the yearly sanction of the Lord Lieu:c
'cant and of the Judges. It must, however, be
Auctioned so long as the present Act of Parliament re-
mained in force. It might not be in their poser to pre-
vent such duct ices being taught, but it would be in their
power to withdraw from them the continuance of a Lrgi -
lafve sanction. Whether it would afterwards be their
duty to grant any money to a college which woul I teach
such doctrines was a question for separate consideration,
and one which he did not then wish to deal with. He
wiehed hoe ever to put an end to that system of visitation,
which was attended with no effect, but which misled the
public out of doors, from a supposition that something was
done. Is would afterwards, he should repei t, be the duty
of the House to say whether they would continue the grant
which was now maee to the College of Maynooth.
Colonel BRUCE seconded the motion.
Lord MO RPETH snit, that if the question before the
House had been, whether leave should be given to bring
in the 8.11 of the Hon. Member who had just sat down,
he, for one, considering how much that speech abounded
in matter highly criminatory and vituperative against the
priesthood, and the religious tenets of a large majority of the
third part of the empire—be for one would have no scruple
in caking on the House not to receive any such statements
or allege. ions.—( Hear, hea-.) The Hon. Member can-
didly declared the ietention with which he had made his
motion. He intended to open a new fit ld, and leave it
free for those who had hitherto felt themselves somewhat
shackled in giving th ir votes against the annual grant to
the College of i%layraooth. He had said that he had felt
precluded from giving his vote against the grant, in con-
sequence of existing statutes. By that means it appeared
to him (Lord Morpeth) that the Hon. Member had cast
some reproach on those of seneitive and tender consciences
who had opposed the grant. He did not see what dis-
tinction the Hors. Member could draw between the Act
of 1800 and the Act of 1795. Mr. Pitt had, no doubt,
been a party to the introduction of the Act of 1795, but
he (Lord Morpeth) bad yet to learn to learn that Mr.
Pitt was not in office in 1800, and that be had net accepted
the Act introduced by the Irish Parlia-nont on the
subject of Maynooth. It had been adopted, together
with the Lsg.sla it e statutes then existing ir, Ireland, as
part of the union, and from that time the vote had
annually passed by the Imperial Parliament. He did not
propose to follow the Hon. Gentleman in his dissertations
with respect to the disparity between the ultra- Montanisti
and the Cii‘- Alpine party and the various cord eternities
and societies, with the enumeration of which the lion.
Member amused the leisure ef the House. It had been
one of the benefits of the Emancipation Act ; but there
were many Hon. Members of the House more competent
to enter into such discussions than he could pretend to be,
or than he apprehended the Hon. Member himtelf could
be. He was happy to find that there were members of
the Roman Catholic commurity in the House who would
he able, when they heard any statements derogatory to
their religion, to contradict it. The lion. Member had
sa tsd that in Roman Cath she countries on the Continent
of Europe—in France and in Austria—everything relating
to religion fell under the cognizance of a secretary ofstste.
But how did the Honourable Geneernan propose
to deal with the qaestion in this country ? Was net the
Hon. Gentleman aware that the Secretary of State who
cc rrespondtci with t'!e See of Rome upon the subject
would incur the penalty of prenernire? The Hen. Gen-
tleman ought, therefore, while he proposed the introduc-
tion of such a system, to have first called on them to repe 1
the Act which imposed that penalty. The Hoe. Member
had saisl, that in ether countries the Sate imposed condi-
tions on the Catholic clergy, to renouhce certain doc-
trines, and refrain from err stn practices. The Hon.
Gentleman should, however, have remembered that in
those countries not only did the State control the con-
duct of the clergy, but it also paid them ; it maintained
and encouraged them. If the Hon. Gen:len:al thought
they should interfere with the conduct of the Roman
Catholic c'ergy in Ireland, he should have asked the House
to provide some more adequate means for keeping that
clergy in a state of greater respectability and comfort.
The Hon. Member had quoted extracts from several
books, which ho stated to be used in the libraries and lec-
ture-rooms of Maynooth ; he had mentioned Bailey, An-
toiee, and Thomas Aquinas, among the numter, but he
must have known that those books were probably in use in
the time of Mr. Pitt, and they were certainly in u‘e when
Mr. Percival and Lord Castlereagh supported the annual
Brant for the Institution. But even it the Hon. Member

had shown that there were twiny doctrines inculcated,
and many books read is Maynooth which did not meet vitt)
his approbation, he would sti.l have proved nothing in the
case. Wiint was that for wl ich the College of Maynooth
had Le:in instituted? The Hon. Member oppos.te had
said that it was intended that a portion of the L ity should
be educated there, as well as clergymen ; but it was the ob-
j:ct of Mr. Pitt, in founding the College, to withdraw those
who were to form the future body of tie lush priesthood
from the influence of the principles and education of
France. It was intended that those who were to firm
the ministers of ti'e Roman Catholic Church in Ireland
should be educated in this country. That being t.ie ob-
ject of the institution, unless tho Hon. Member could show
that the doctrines inculcate] there were in contradiction
with :he known principles cf the Roman Catholic Church,
he bas made out no case for the interference of Par,iament.

If he could show that the dca-ines taught there a ere con-
trary to the known rites and ordinances and inst. tutions of
the Roman Catholic Church, he would then admit that the
Hon. Member had proved his case —( Hear, hear.) He
would give an illustration of his meaning. Suppose that
Nlaynooth, instead of being instituted fur the purposes of
aching the doctrines of the Roman Cath lie Church had
been instituted for the purposes of educating clergymen in
the faith of the Protestant Establishment; suppose that its
main object had been the education of Protestant Church
of England, as distinguished from Roman Catholic c'ergy-
men ; and suppose that the professors and lecturers of that
College. instead of carrying out the avowed object for which
they were instituted, should be found continually declaring
that there was no very great dis'inction between the Pro-
te,tant Church of England and the Catholic Church—
( Hear, hear, hear)—denouncing in strong terms what
they were pleased to call the terrors of a reformation,
and inculcated on their pupils that there was no very
essential difference between the doctrines of the two
churches—( Loud cheers)— under such circumstances,
they would not be sssrprised to find that many cf these
pupils were deserting the Established Church, and en-
tering into the Catholic Church.—(Loud cheers.) If
the Hon. Ger,tleman had brought forward such a case as
that, he would then admit that the Institution had not
answered the purpose of its establishment, and that he had
stale out a case calling for V:e interference of Parlia-
ment. Honourable Gentlemen opposite seemed to think

tat he was not bo:no out in the allusions which he

bad made ; fir their information, be would quote
from a work of authority, The Church of .Eng-
land Quarterly Review, a passage from their critique on
the Oxfe Tracts.-IThe Noble Lord here quoted a
passage from the work alluded to, denouncing the Oxford
Tracts aQ a direct approach to Papacy, and as cale.tlated
to sap ihe foundation rf the Church of England from
within, while Infidels and Papists were attacking it from
Without.] These accusations were brought forward not
against the professors of the Roman Catholic religion, but
agisst the professors of the Protestant religion in a Pre-
tettant University.—(Loud cheer..) Nu such accu-
sation had been brought against the Prof.ssors of
Msynooth. And, whatever they might have been charged
with, they had never been charged with any laxity in up-
holding the doctrines and discipline of the Catholic Church.
—( Cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman had touched upon the
conduct of the priesthood with reward to their conduct as
rela ed to the common relations of life in Ireland. When
speaking of a body so numerous as the Roman Catholic
priesthood of Ireland, he would not attetrpt either to deny
r defend every action of every member of that body.
More patticularly did he join with the Hon. Gentleman in
repudiating those denunciations from the altar, to which he
had alluded. Such topics of political excitement, when
uq,e I from such a placo, must be considered as a desecra-
tion of the Most High.—(Loud cheers.) It was taking
from Ciesar the things which were Caesar's.—(Hear,
hear, and loud cheers.) But with respect to the general
conduct of the Roman Catholic clergy in Ireland, and to
the influence which they exercised over their flacks, with-
out meaning to flitter the Irish people, and without mean-
ing to say that the people.of this country did not possess
sclvantages over them in many point., he would say that
he did believe that the male portion of that people ex-
hibited more sobriety—( Cheers)—the female portion more
chastity—(Cheers)—and both mete patience under in-
• •
tense suffering than could be saidof
much,
u ofch. the
distinctly
countries.—(Loud cheers.) He
said thus either
rd
bout to adopt on this occasion should be
himself against the inference that the conduct
gwuhaiehing he
was a
considered as hereafter precluding him from the tight of
voting
that the
i nf favour
Stateofg
thera
granted
dtry towardsgr nt otfh ,000/.,
support
of whichthe was
all
re-
ligion of the great majority of h
Ire-
land.—( Loud cheers ) Seeing that they people
outwho ofccu theie House
theyoplweernef
t told
'hveerYllodnao3l;rabboleth Gienntlmaenden
opposit: were ready, ray, that they professed them-
opd the benetli!
ea
selves ready, to assume the rt igns of power, and that they
represented that those reins were likely to fag n itbin their
grasp in a short time—(Cheers)—he thought it eeiir-
able that the country and the people cf Ireland—(Loud
cheers)—should see before them fully explained and de-
veloped--( Continued cheerieg)—the means and policy
;Oriel' they were prepared to adopt, respecting the Go-
vernment of Ireland.—(Loud and continued cheering.)
He should, therefore, offer no objection to the present
motion himself—( Loud cheers)—and he begged the
House to allow the Hon. Gentleman the opportunity of
bringing forward all he bad to urge against the institution.
—( Loud cheers.)
Sir ROBERT INGLIS said that although the Noble
Lord bad not, in distinct w.trds, mentiosed the University
of Oxford, yet he had alluded to it'in so significant a man-
ner that he felt himself eall:d upon to protact that venerable
body vgainst the misrepresentations of the Noble Lord. The
publications to which the Noble Lord had alluded were
not deliberate acts of rho Unhorsity. They were not 1