The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-03 00:00:00

PRIVILEGES OF THE HOUSE.

Sir F. THESIGER said that he wished to call the at-
tention of the House to a subject of the utmost im-
portance, as connected with its privileges. It would be
in the recollection of the House that some time ago an
action was brought against the Sergeant-at-Arms, for
having, in obedience to a warrant of the Speaker, issued
by the authority of that House, arrested a Mr. Howard,
and brought him before the bar of that House to be
examined. On that action the Sergeant, by
leave of the House, pleaded a justification of
his act under its authority ; and issues at
law having been raised, an argument took,
place in the Court of Queen's Bench, and, after consi-
derable time having been taken by the Court to delibe-
rate on its judgment, a majority was given against the
plea of justification. That judgment, itself, was not
more unfavourable to that House than the principle on
which it proceeded, and which, if it had been allowed
to bee ° nsidered as a settled and established law, would
the
have placed all their most important privilege,
The
a
mercy of the courts of justice.—(Cheers.)
ject having been brought under the attention eof sub-
ject
House, a Select Committee was appouted for the purpose of
considering the best course to be adopted for
the vindication
of its privileges, and after a careful consideration of the
whole circumstances, and looking at the ground on
which the judgment proceeded, and the Committee being
extremely desirous not to recommend any extreme mea-
sure in the assertion of their privileges, as long as any
hope remained of deciding it by a legal tribunal, a
report was presented to the Rouse recommending that a
writ of error should be brought. On a division,- a ma-
jority of that House acquiesced in that recommendation.
A year the
tiim
of9eurersorwas granted, and in the course of last
WaS argued before- the Court of Ea-

I=~~~~

chequer Chamber, and he. ha 'the -
satisfaction to
inform the House that this very y that Court had.- %
unanimously pronounced a decision everaing the judgsZ"
ment of the Court of Queen's Bent4:-.1-(Cloud nbeersN
It might be important to the House to know the grounds
on which this important decision was given, but the
grounds on which the judgment was given rendered it
unnecessary. He hoped, however. he might be permitted,
that' the result of this inquiry confirmed and sanctioned
the report and recommendation of the Select Committee,
and he should thereforernove that the short-hand writer's
notes should be printed, 'and circulated amongst the
Members of that House.
POSTPONEMENT OF MOTIONS.
Mr. P. SCROPE said that he did not wish to inter-
pose between the debate of last night the motion of
which he had given notice, namely---" That the lives of
the people of Ireland ought to be as valuable in the eye
of the law as the lives of the people of England ; conse-
quently, it is expedient to extend to Ireland the main
principle of the English poor-law, namely, the right of
the destitute poor to relief, from a public provision, to
save them from perishing." If other Hon. Members
were willing to postpone their notices he would at once
follow the example.
Mr. B. ESCOTT said he also did not wish to em-
barrass the Government, and he would not press the
House to a discussion on his motion.
LETTING OF LANDED PROPERTY IN
IRELAND.
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD raid that the reso-
lution which he proposed, namely, " That it apcears to
this House, from the reports of various Committees and
Commissions, that.the-system generally adopted in times
past in the letting and inanag, merit of landed property in
Ireland, has been one of the main causes of the present
distressed state of that country, and the disordered state
of its social relations ; and that no measures can be
effectual in producing a demand for labour, or improving
the condition oT the people, which shall not include such
an amendment of the laws of landlord and tenant as
shall give to the improving tenant in occupation a sufll•
cient permanency of tenure, or else establish the tenant's
right to claim by law full compensation for all bens.
fits created by the expenditure of his labour
and capital on the premises in question," was
intimately associated with the question under de-
bate, and he accordingly felt some difficulty in yielding
to the Noble Lord.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that it was his intention
to bring in a Bill for the very same object as that pro•
posed by the Hon. Gentleman at the very earliest possible
moment. On account of the pressure of business, the
Government were at the present moment unable to
give the question that attention which it demanded.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said that he would fix Thurs-
day next for the discussion of his motion.
Mr. ROEBUCK said that he felt very great difficulty
in giving up his motion • if he did so, he considered that
he would have some claim upon the Noble Lord at a
future day fur his motion, which was, that a Committee
of the whole House be appointed,
or the purpose of
referring to it the Act 5 and 6 Vic., c. 35, with a view to
extend the operation of the said Act to Ireland.
FINANCIAL STATEMENT.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that as soon as the House
had consented to the second reading of the Bills
before it, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would bring
forward the whole of the question as regards finance.
His Right Hon. Friend would make his financial state-
ment on an early day, and then it would be competent
for the Hon. Member to bring forward his resolution.
ABSENTEES—IRELAND.
Mr. H. GRATTAN said, diet with regard to the
motion of which he had given notice--namely for a
return of the absentees from Ireland, stating their names
and annual incomes derived from property therein ;
specifying the counties in which their estates are situate,
and distinguishing such as are temporarily or more than
six months absent from Ireland: that the guardians
of the poor-law unions in Ireland do furnish
an account of the annual value of the property
of all absentees in their respective unions assessed
to the poor rare : that the Commissioners, under
the Act 5 and 6 Vic., c. 35, do furnish an account of the
aggregate amount of all property in Ireland taxed under
the provisions of that Act, ani other Acts continuing
the same: also, a return of the number of persons re-
siding in England, or temporarily absent there-
from, charged, under the Act 5 and 6 Vic., c. 35,
and the Act for continuing the same, in respect
of profits and gains arising from any allowance
annuity, stipend, or trade in Ireland ; together with the
total amount of the duties levied in respect of such profits
and gain: that the governor and directors of the Bank
of Ireland do furnish an account of the amount of all
annuities, dividends, and shares of annuities payable by
the said company out of the public revenues of the
United Kingdom to or to the use or benefit of any
persons not resident in Ireland —he was in the
same predicament as the Honourable Member for
Bath.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman said that
his measure was preliminary to others; now the return
which he (Mr. Grattan) mtved for was a corollary to
his (Mr. Roebuck's) motion.—(Laughter.) He wished,
therefore, to know whether the Right Hon. Gentleman,
the Secretary for Ireland, would have any objection to
grant the return?

Mr. LABOUCHERE said, that if he were inclined to
grant the return, he did not know how to come at the
information.
Mr. H. GRATTAN—There was no difficulty what-
ever in the matter. There was the list (pointing to a
paper in his hand), and he would be happy to furnish the
particulars, without asking for the pay or the posi-
tion of the Irish Seem tary.
LETTER-CARRIARB.
Mr. GROGAN moved for a.Zteturn showing the
amount of wages paid to the letter-carriers of class
No. lof this metropolis, on die Ist day of 0 413,846,
and also the average amount of all other Attigaments
I received by them respectively ; similar rettfras for the
letter-carriers of classes Nos. 2 arid 3 ; returns showing
the amount of wages now paid to the letter carriers in
each class, and any other compensation they had in ad-
dition ; also similar returns for the letter-carriers of
Dublin, with the emoluments they had in addition to
their salary.—Agreed to.
On the order of the day being read for resuming the
adjourned debate on the
LABOURING POOR (IRELAND) BILL,
Mr. G. A. HAMILTON was desirous to express the
gratification he felt at the close of the speech of the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor •of the Exchequer
last night, where he evinced the sympathy he enter-
tained for the sufferings of the people of Ireland.
He really believed that it was impossible for any one to
realise to himself the extent of the misery which had
taken place in Ireland who had not had the opportunity
of observing it for himself. Why, in the part of Ireland
where he resided, within twenty miles of Dublin, where
the poor were.within the reach of markets, where every-
thing had been done which couid be done to mitigate
or to avert this dreadful calamity, he said that it was
most melancholy to observe the gradual approach of this
fearful visitation. It was most melancholy to observe
the gradual sinking of the smaller farmers from a state
of comfort to a state of poverty ; the gradual disappear.
ance of his little luxuries, of his slender comforts ; the
disappearance of hi. pig, of his poultry, of his articles of
household furniture—all indicative of the gradual and
certain approach of this visitation. Still more melan-
choly was it to observe even among the labour-
ing classes the approach of this calamity;
the mournful countenances, the desponding
and downhearted appearance so unusual among the
peasantry of Ireland, all telling a tale of famine not
likely to be misunderstood. He knew enough of Ire-
land to know that if this state of things existed in a part
of the country so favourably placed, they might
easily imagine what must be the state of
people in the more remote parts. There were two or
three points in the speech of the Right Honourable
Baronet opposite to which he felt it his
duty to refer. He imputed to the gentlemen
of Ireland a degree of supineness, because they had
not availed themselves of the provisions of an Act,
passed in the beginning of last session, by which money
might be provided for the improvement of estates • and
also that they had not availed themselves sufficiently of
the provisions of another Act passed at a later
period of the session, being an Act for the
better drainage of estates in Ireland. With regard to
the first of these Acts, it was tried and found to be in-
operative. He saw the Right Hon. Baronet, the late
Secretary for the Home Department, in his place, and
it might be in his remembrance that, in a conversation
between him, the Honourable Baronet the Member for
Derry, and himself (Mr. Hamilton), they informed
the Right Hon. Baronet that a particular clause in that
Act (the clause which made it imperative that they
should apply to the Court of Chancery) would stultify
it altogether. The House had already been informed
that the operation of the second Act, which ap-
plied to the drainage of estates, was rendered
inoperative by a defect in the third clause,
The Right Honourable Gentleman the Chancellor
had made presentments under the Labour-rate of the Eichequer complained that the gentry of
Actlreland
totoo
into the the ne-
cessity
freely, and without any previous inquiry
tthetior mpreeesteh:
the truth was, the Act required nu. p
,while the presentment
on the part of the
of the works that were to be urnedliemrtianikaerny.ingNuoirwy,
the rate-
uamndstanatethe:
opasrtant difference
pseasyseirosns wered notg n t calledry
ad togethervoueernmyceseikniecpwe
m„t under the most unfacvoomumraebnlecemceirnct
b
thought the Right Honour-
reht emergency,vs e ae
pn p tehae eAdacnttdo passedconstituteti eH at
ec t° tnt hhs e'o' a
end of the session.
the
many
rheol
abusesief
were committees
enxoitsteendii
Honour-
able Gentleman had dealt rather hardly with
hteoirner e
Imi
el
itroe;hl aht nu dtb.eit
sthhNoousoeldobcileotutbe-t
t leTd
lmisatsn
collected that the board consisted of clergymen and ma-
gistrates, and that the usual course was tor the clergy-
man who was supposed to be best acquainted
with the circumstances of the district—(Rear,
hear)—to represent any case of extreme distress.
How then could the committees take on themselves to
exclude persons thus recommended from relief ? He
thought the discretion afterwards given to the officers to
revise 'the lists was extremely judicious. Hiving
made these few observations on the speech of the
Right Honourable Gentleman, he was anxious
to state that he had no desire whatever to look
back upon what had passed within the last few
weeks in Ireland, or to speak unfavourably of the con-
duct of her Majesty's Government. He was aware of
the difficulties by which they were surrounded. He
thought, moreover, that the Lord-Lieutenant and
the rest of the Government were entitled
to the greatest praise for having taken upon
themselves to carry out productive works in-
stead of those that were in operation under the
Labour-rate Act. Considerin., the difficulties conse-
quent upon their duties, and the funds placed at their
disposal, he considered that the Board of Works were
also entitled to the thanks of the country for &bb 41444