The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-23 00:00:00

leaving the religious portion of the education to the
clergymen of the different denominations, and to the
parents of the chil.lren. He perfectly concurred in the
remarks of the Nob!e Lord, the Member for Arundel,
(Lord Surrey), who spoke so much to his credit the other
night.—(Hear. hear.) As, he said, that although those
of the Roman Catholic persuasion were not to participate
in the grant that he should not, on that ground deny aid
from the funds of the State for the purpose of aiding in
promoting education amongst other sects.—(Hear, hear.)
Yet he (Sir W. James) could not help thinking that the
exclusion of that portion of the community
would be another Catholic disability.—(Hear, bear.)
He thought the speech of the Hon. Member for Durham
was one more against the Church and the aristocracy
than anything else ; and he regretted to see a Gentle-
man, who had attained such a position in the country,
would come forward and give utterance to such preju-
diced sentiments as he had done.
Sir JOHN EASTHOPE said it was with the deepest
regret that he saw her Majesty's Government submit to
consult the expeeeney of the moment, which they had
eancdonithrerroemwisaes
monaedegrbeaette:e,enandthtlaiacthwuareshthoef
done the present measure. There were great objec-
utinofnosrttuonlati
E
werergteli
the
enx(iNc
Noble
the
edL._ o
Lord
r(
dr excluded.—(Hear, ehE3e:arnrl s)o'
fb:Hreuwhich
)i
admired
adh
ne
d thehhe
speech Catholics
hoped
op
e d
that the Wesleyana would from it learn true sentiments
of Christian charity.

Mr. SHARMA"ei CRAWFORD said it was his
intention to vote for the Hon. Member's amendment, fur
he did feel that the measure of the Government was a
violation of the rights of the people, and was a violation
' of religious liberty, because it gave undue advantages to
one sect over another. He was as anxious to support
education as any man in the House; but the exclusion
of the Catholics was most unworthy of the Gov( rn-
ment. Ile did give great praise to the Earl of Arundel
fcr his speech, but it emanated rather from the goodness
of his heart than anything else; but he would say that
the people of England would respect the Catholic body
if they stood upon their rights, for he did not
know on what principles any Catholic Member in that
House could vote for the proposition of the Government.
The Methodist bodies in the town of Rochdale were not
parties to any compromise which might have been en-
tered upon. They had commissioned him to present
many addresses, which embodied the truest principles of
religious liberty. On the subject cf the Maynooth
grant, he was one of those who opposed that grant, on
the ground that it was hostile to civil and religious
rights, and he now opposed this grant on the ground that
the civil and religious rights of the Catholics themselves
were interfered with. He did not wish that the Church
to which he belonged should exercise any undue influ-
ence over the religious or civil rights of any sect whic'e
differed from it. For these various reasons, he would
give his vote in favour of the amendment.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH entirely agreed in the
opinion of the Hon. Member who had last spoken, and
with the Hon. Member for Montrose, that a Sp tern of
national secular education. divested of every interference
in religious opinion, would be far preferable to the
measure proposed. With regard to the measure itself,
the first question was, should the Government interfere
at all in the education of the people 2—secondly, to
what extent it should do so ?—and, thirdly, as to the
nature of the education to be given by them ? There
were many opinions upon this subject outside, in favour
of the non-interference of the Government under any
circumstances ; but he would ask whether it was not the
duty of every Government to promote the interests of
the public and of the Government by Oucating the
people? The Government should teach the people the
difference between right and wrong, as that alone would
make them willingly obedient to the laws ; and,-there-
fore, the education of the people was a matter of
primary importance to the State. He thought that
the State should educate the people. Wi:h regard to
i crime, they were at that moment at their wits end to
prevent its increase. He was chairman of a Comtnittc
which had to deliberate with reference to this subject,
and they could devise no means to prevent its increase.
Although good gaols and good gaolers might in some
degree check the progress of crime, yet he thought that
good schools and good schoolmasters would check it
still more. No person objected to large expenditure on
the part of the State in matters of less importance than
the education of tho people, and there should, therefore,
no objection be offered in any expenditure for that edu-
cation. He would ask those who were the opponents of
State interference, if there were not hundreds of thou-
sands of people in this country too poor to educate their
children ? How then were they to be educated, except
by private charity, under which such an efficient system
of superintendence as could be exercised under a na-
tional regulation would be impossible. Many of these
educational charities, especially those supported
by voluntary contributions, were deficient in
funds, depending upon accidental donations for
their resources, to increase which they were
obliged to have recourse to the most unfortunate,
and he might almost say degrading solicitations. If he
were a member of the humbler class he should feel it
more consonant with his feelings to have his children
educated at-the expense of the state than by private
charity. He should rather claim the education of his
children from the State as a right, and to which he was
entitled for the benefit of the community, than receive it
from the uncertain bounty of his fellows citizens, from
whom he should take it as a boon and as a favour.—
(Ilear, hear.) The next question was as to what extent,
and in what manner the State should interfere in edu-
cation? In his opinion the State should interfere so
far as that, no children should from want of means re-
main ignorant of so much of the elements of an educa-
tion as would tend to save them from crime.—(llear.)
This system should be carried out without reference
to creed or belief. There had been three methods pro•
posed in which this interference on the part of the State
should have been made, of which he considered that the
only practicable one was the proposal that the State
should contribute to the support of the alrerdy existing
schools of each sect. The dissenters of a certain class
had, to some extent, thrown an obstacle in the way of
the last measure which he had mentioned, as they had
a conscientious objection to receiving any grant from the
State. In our eastern dominions the people were some-
times in danger of perishing by starvation, from the
failure of the rico crop, and the Government attempted
to remedy the deficiency by supplies of animal food, to
which the people bad an insuperable objection, founded
on their religion. He thought that what food
was to the body, education was to the mind.
the last objection to which he would refer, was a very
grave one. It was the proposition to leave out the-Ro-
man Catholic altogether. He had been much astonished
at this arrangement, and up to this week he believed no
one out of the Government knew that such an exclusion
would be proposed. He regretted the interpretation
which had been given t.) the minutes of 1839. This in-
terpretation had not, however, been given to it till 1847.
Since 1839 till then, no such interpretation had taken
place. The Noble Lord said, that as soon as Roman
Catholics applied for the grant their application would
be taken into consideration, but that, as yet, no such ap-
plication had been made. This was, however, incorrect.
In February last a Mr. Langdon applied to the Council
in respect to the educational grant, and Dr. Kay Shut-
tleworth replied to him, that their Lordships would, if
a definite application was made to them in respect to the
Roman Catholics, they would give it their most careful
consideration. That this was the interpretation of the
minutes would seem to he the case, from the proceedings
of the Wesleyan Committee of Education, in March
and April 19 t 4, according to certain letters
and documents of theirs, published in last week's
Watchman. To the letters there addressed to the Coun-
cil of Education they replied that they would be disposed
to give every consideration to any objections the Wes-
leyans might have to offer to the mode rocommen.lcd by
the former. A conference ensued, in which the Council
made such explanations about the Scriptures being either
read daily entire, or extracts-from them, in the schools,
such as to remove the objections of the Wesleyans.
This would have included the Catholics, as nothing was
then said about the authorised verson being alone used.
(The Hon. Member then quoted the resolutions of a
public meeting, held a few days ago, the Earl of Shrews-
bury in the chair, complaining of the exclusion to which
the Government proposed to subject them in this grant.)
After the speeches made by the Noble Lord the Member
for the West Riding of Yorkshire (Lord Morpeth), and
the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Devonport (Sir
G. Grey), he felt encouraged to give notice that he
would move, in some stage of the present question, a re.
solution declaring that in any future grant the Roman
Catholics should be admitted to participate in it on the
same footiug as other religious sects.—(fleer, hear.)
Lord MAHON supported the proposition of the Go-
vernment. When they considered the enormous amount
of ignorance which prevailed, he could not see what other
course they could take than supporting this grant. By re-
ferring to the various reports submitted to this House,
they would find the enormous amount of ignorancewhich
prevailed and the necessity which existed for the change
It was impossible that they could have things as•
they were, and a change was, therefore, necessary-
If this plan of. the Hon. Member for Dumfries were im-
practicable, as he thought it was, then there remained
only some such measure as that of her Majesty's
Government. He thought, for instance, that the propo-
sition of providing retiring pensions and situations,
under certain circumstances, under Government, would
require to be abandoned. Still, as a whole, he would
undoubtedly support the Government, believing their
scheme to have been brought forward in an earnest and
truthful spirit. When he looked to the present artificial
state of society, be could net think that they were alto-
gether faultless who opposed even this limited measure
of education ; he thought that they should, before
punishing crime, give the people the means of knowing
g,ool from evil.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that he was al e-ays
very unwilling unnecessarily to occupy the time and
attention of the House, but as he coneluded that the
lion. Member for Finsbury intended to press his motion
to a dirLion, he could not reconcile it to his sense of
duty to give a silent vote on that occasion. The motion
made by the Noble Lord at the head of the Gsvernment
was that they should resolve themselves into a Commit-
tee of Supply for the purpose of voting 100,0001. of the
public
money in aid of education. The motion moved
as an amendment by the Hon. Member for Finsbury was
that a Select Committee be appointed for the purpise of
antoatonriionrrznd
inquiry. Now it appeared to him, in reference to this
sfaucbtjse zt,
wereth
was altogether superfluous. The
notorious; and that there was a great inade-
pacy of the
education in England was
admitted on all hands. of
then, he presumed.
was made (as had been hinted lont
jo,r the purpose of
conveying a censure on her Majesta's)
pressions of dissent from differentypartsvoefnirn"%e()x.
a nd although he was not prepared to eay thatt‘hoedn,Tosiii' c-ot
been committed in this matter, yet it would,
the difficulties which surrounded the question, be inil?igs
opinion unjust in the extreme to mark with severit •
anything that nfght have been done amiss. He wa3s
well aware of the extreme difficulty that attended this
question, and he felt bound to say, therefore, that they
should rather endeavour to rectify their omissions, than

ensure what they might discover to be wrong. It was
in this spirit that he should direct his attention to the
matter under discussion ; and on the threshold of this
subject the abstract question presented itself; as to
whether it was, or was not, the duty of the State to in-
terfere with the education of the people. He could not
hesitate, in discussing this abstract question, at coming to
the conclusion that it was not only one among the highest
duties of the State, but among the noblest, if not indeed
the most noble, functions of the Government, to do
everything to extend and diffuse knowledge, to elevate
the moral, and cultivate the religious feeling of the
people committed to its care, and looking at this as a
Christian assembly, he could not hesitate to state that
the noblest and purest system of education for the
people was that system of morals which had received
the Divine sanction, and which held out to mankind on
the one hand a future state of eternal reward, or on the
other a state of eternal punishment. But this view of
the subject would lead him into considerations which at
present he did not intend to enter upon. To pass them
from that subject, and to tura from the abstract to the
practical question, if it were to be admitted for the pur-
poses of the debate, that in the abstract it was
the duty of the State to promote the education of
the people, the real question as a practical
one would be, how could that duty be best performed?
Now, as was the case with all matters of policy, the
practical question must be considered in reference to the
varied circumstances in the different parts of the United
Kingdom. The question had been transferred to Scot-
land by the most able and eloquent Gentleman who re-
presented the metropolis of that country, and in refer-
ence to Scotland, it should be remembered that at an
early period of its history the happy circumstances oc-
curred of the one religion being e:nbraccd by the entire
people, and the education of the country was delegated
to the Church. There was here no difficulty, as, when
the Presbyterian religion was first introduced in the reign
of James "1., and again in the reign of William 111., edu-
cation was altogether confided to the national
Church, formed part of its social and prac-
tical system, and received the sanction of the
Scottish Parliament first, and afterwards of the Parlia-
ment of the United Kingdom. The education of the
people progressed in strict alliance with the Church as
by law established until the late disruption, which he
to that day deplored. Religious feelings and secular edu-
cation went hand in band, and very many circumstances
combined to elevate the people of that portion of the
island in history, and enabled the country, notwith-
standing its natural disadvantages and its poverty, to
rise to a level with the highest an most civilised nations
in the world.—(blear, hear.) In Ireland, again, the
circumstances were exactly different. There the reli-
gion of the State was the religion of a small minority ;
dissent from that religion was the distinguishing fea-
ture of the great majority in that country.
Their religion was not recognised by the State,

bat Periiatiient bad granted, year by year, considerable
sums of private money, not in alliance with the Church,
indeed, but still by this system Dissenters were admitted
to partake of benefits in which Churchmen al,o parti-
cipated. It was, therefore, consistent both with the
practice and policy of the case that the views of the Go-
vernment should vary with the varied circumstances of
the United Kingdom. Aud now let them turn to Eng-
land. Here from an early period, unhappily to the latest
period, to that very hour, the greatest differences had
arisen on the subject of religion, and every class of the
community had been bitterly divided on the subject of
their religious faith. In that difference of opinion on
religious matters had consisted the real difficulty
of legislating on the subject of education. The
State had encountered violent and uncalled-for
interference both from the members of the Church and
the supportere of different religious persuasions. Now he
l'elt bound to say that in his own person he had some
experience v. ith reference to the attempts of Ministers
of the Crown to interfere ou this subject,—(Hear, hear,
!led laughter,)—and he had never been eneblal to do as
much far educet-on as his zeal would have led him to do.
But he had dune this at all events; he had navigated the
channel, he had sound, d all the depths, and he had
marked the rocks and the shoals which were to be
avoided by future Governments.—(Hear, hear.) If he
lied done no more, be had at least done this ; he had
shown the Government that succeeded, that which they
ought to avoid if they wished to bring forward a measure
calculated to extend the education of the people. He
thought then, that it was indispensably necessary that
the course which had been hitherto pursued
should not be persevered in, namely, that an
annual vote should be taken, and that from time
to time rules and regulations should be determined
upon in the deliberations of that House. Now, he did
not think it altogether superfluous to point out hew
occasional assistance ought to be administered with
caution, by the State for the education of the people.
Under the Government of Lord Grey, a small sum Ras
asked for the aid of building school-houses. That
small sum was, he believed, 20,0001, or 30,0001., to be
disposed of under the inspection of the Government;
but by other, and after regulations, the distribution of
that sum was placed at the disposal of the Committee
of Privy Council. Of course, under the circumstances,
to which he had adverted, the difference of opinion in
matters of religion rendered it cxeeedingly difficult to
give any aid fur the purposes of religious and secular
education; and, therefore, it was limited to the mere
external fabric of the schools. Grants were subse •
quently made to two institutions, the one the National
Society, immediately connected with the Established
Church, and the other, the British and Foreign Society,
which had the confidence of a large portion of the Dis-
senting bodies. Until a recent period, in the year 1839,
no aisistance was given, except for the single pur-
pose of bnildicg schools, and a further restriction
was observed that the schools to be built must be con-
nected with one or other of those societies. The first
relaxation of that rule took place when Lord Melbourne
was at the head of the Government, but the order of
Council of 1839 still maintained, as an indispensable con-
dition that these schools should be connected with one
or other: of these two societies. The rule was also
maintained that the assistarce of Government should
only be given for the building of the fabric, except in
special cases; these special cases were to be connected
with one or other of these two societies. He was not
aware that the Government of Lord Melbourne ever en-
tertained any more than two or three of these special
eases, and they took care that in these cases the
requirements should be rigorously executed. He
thought that the first time assistance was given,
to the amount of 5000/., for 1842, to two normal
schools in connexion with the two societies,
In the year 1843 an annual vote of 1,0001. per annum to
the National School, and 7501. to the British and Fo-
reign Schools, was substituted in lieu of occasional
grants, and annual contributions were also given in aid
of the Normal Schools of Scotland. After this depar-
ture from the original rules, applications were pressed
upon the Committee for annual contributions in aid of
maintenance of the members connected with those
Schools. When these cases were to be considered, he
felt it his duty to state to the House, that these cases
would be sure to be interrupted, and they would be in-
volved in such a discussion as they were now engaged
in ; and they would find it necessary altogether to
desist from allowing these grants. If it could be
shown that the means of education were deficient,
and that Parliament determined to give grants to one
denomination, then he showed that on the same prin-
ciple they were bound to extend that provision to all
persuasions.—(Hear, hear.) A time had now, however,
come when they felt it necessary that some assistance
should be afforded to the Dissenting bodies in the cause
of education, and ho was greatly rejoiced that they
should, at last, be allowed to receive that assistance
which they so well merited by their exertions. But he
was bound to say that if they admitted the principle,
that assistance should be given to the Dissenting body,
the Roman Catholics should also be allowed to parti-
cipate in the benefit. The only ground of
exclusion which was alleged, was, that they
did not use the authorised version of the
Scriptures ; but what was the authorised version of the
Roman Catholics ? It was the bible from which Bossett
and Fentilon drew the texts from which they preached,
and from which Pascal drew his immortal thoughts.
Would it be told them that this version was to be the
sole barrier against the admission of Roman Catholics
to the benefits which the State had provided ? Surely
Protestant zeal would not go so far as that. The Hon.
Member for Southwark had referred to Mr. Landell,
he (Sir T. Graham) had long had the honour
of an intimate acquaintance with that gentle-
man, and he assured the House that his
every word might be depended on implicitly.
lie was of opinion that an effort should be made by
the Government in order to ascertain whether terms could
not be agreed on by which the Roman Catholics might
be enabled to come in for some share of the benefits of
Government assistance.—(Hear, hear.) He was bound
to say that he could see something like expediency in
not doing so on the present occasion, but he did not see
any justice in doing so. (Cheers.) The present
vote was not a vote of 100,000/. only, it was in addition
to the sum authorised to be expended under the new
minutes. By this vote, which might cause an outlay—.
which he for one did not grudge—of not less than
1,000,000/.—some persons had sot it down at 2,000,0001.
—now, ;out of all this sum the Catholics would
not receive one shilling, and the whole subject
was to be put off to an indefinite period, when the con-
sideration of the question would be brought forward by
itself, and, he must say, invidiously.—(Cheers.) Ile
thought that the proper time to do justice to his Roman
Catholic fellow subjects was the present moment.
He should not vote on the present occasion with the
Hon. Member for Finsbury, because ho thought that the
course taken by Government was justifiable and prudent
with this single exception, however, that they ought to
have allowed the Roman Catholics to participate in the
vote.—(Hear, hear.) He thought it was infinitely better
to proceed by order in Council in the present state of
feeling in this country, than to attempt by Act of Parlia-
ment to establish any uniform system which would not
he in accordance with the general wishes of the psople.
The good, however, that might arise from the course pur-
sued by the Government, he would not purchase at the
expense of what he thought was due to his Roman Ca-
tholic fellow subjects.--(llear, hear.) He must, there-
fore repeat that he entirely approved of the Government
measure, with the single exception he had named, and
he really thought it would be averse to all religious li-
berty and religious toleration if his Roman Catholic fel-
low subjects were to be excluded from participating in
this plan.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Sir, I own after three
nights' debate, I rise very considerably relieved of any
apprehension I might hat'e entertained with respect to
the course the discussion might have taken. The great
objection stated to the front of this measure
that rho
eh3,o:We ought not to interfere with
ree.ttvhaerioues:Qucation of the people, and the various
t,ittiouns presented to this House on the subject, or at
f
p.
:aeretds greaterotlreitamher.ett themhtoc•
auto..nt
ry weredecl
a declaredred
tha
that
o experiencel s a against
wthhiss:conv
that the State should not in:tertirdfeelle;"orawut;thsht theat sbe
eeu3dlbualaldt downifromon f