The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-16 00:00:00

They had admitted more people into the workhouses than they
were in ordinary cases ca!eulated to hold. They had also ex-
pended large sums in (Irninage, in order to give employment to
the poor, and 100,c00/. had been contributed by kcal com-
mittees for the reli4 of the poor. Ile regretted that the Go-
vernment proposed to institute the out-door relief test, bec,ust
he believed it would open a door to fraud. lie quoted the
m;inions of Mr. Lewis and nfr. Twisledon, Assistant Poor-lay:
Commis :loners, to show the greet disadvantages which conic
not fail to attend the adoption of a large plan
of out-door relief. They agreed in opinion that
such a system would impoverish those who, like agricultural
labourers. had some work to do, and would throw a burden of
the landlords which they would be unable to bear. Until the
social condition of Ireland was assimilated to that of England,
such a poor-law as the ono proposed would be found most impo-
litic, and Ireland, instead of being, as he hoped, the right arm of

. -
England, would become a far greater difficulty than heretofore.
Major LAYARD fully agreed with the Hon. Gentleman
who had just addressed the House, that it would have been
happier for the House and fir the country if, instead of at-
tacking the landlords of Ireland, a closer attention had been
paid to the circumstances of the calamity with which they had
now to deal in Ireland. He (Niajor Layard) was one of those
who, ever since he had known L-eland, now fifteen years. has
been convinced that no good would ever be done there without
a poor-law. lie had prophesied, when the poor-law whirl
now existed was paswol, the necessity would very shortly
arise for the adoption of a measure of a wider character ano
a more extensive operation. He, for one, was an advocate
' of a system of out-door relief. If such a system were no,
now brought forward, how could they expect any law, situated
as Ireland now was, to be benefic'al to the people? The
workhouses could not now receive one-twentieth of the ap-
plicants for relief, and many thousands would inevitably
perish if they were compelled to wait while the poor-
were being built.—( Hear, hear.) He admitted that many
very great difficulties surrounded this question. He ac-
knowledged that from the position in thick they ware placer'
many cf the landed proprietors of Ireland could not but
grudge taking that part which they were called upon t,
play in coming to the aid of their countrymen ; but the
majority of the people should be the cons.ideration for that
House to decide uport. and tln.ugh it might be proved tha
seme few would suffer, still the good of the many muss
prevail.--(Hear, hear.) It was not the fault of the people
that•they needed the charity of the House. There were in-
dustrions men who had no opportunity of earning a
litre' hood by the sweat of their brow ; and there were the
wretched and the pauperised, who by no exertion of their own
could rise from the state to which they had been reduced.--
( Hear.) The Government dr served great. credit for proposing
the 10th cla. se of the by which it would be enacted, tha
after 2s 6d. in the pound had been paid out of the borough-
rate the expenditure would then come on the electoral district
The towns would then be relieved of an enormous burden of
vagrancy and mendicancy, and the tax would be equally
divided over the land. He had heat d Hon. Members threaten
to bring forward a Bill to impose an absentee-tax ; but thei•
ohj et would effectually be attained by the measure now before
the House. A poor-law was the best absentee-tax. When a
poor-law was carried for Ireland it would be the interest ut
many proprietors to remain resident on their own estates, in
order that, by extra care and carefulness, they might compen-
sate themselves for that loss to which they would be exposer
when they had to maintain the poverty of the country. Then
only alternative would be to furnish employment to does,
dependent on them, and in this way the great capabilities
of the country would be fully developed. They would not
be able to carry an absentee-tax for Ireland, without im-
posing one also upon England. Hitherto, the punr had sup-
ported the paupers, and the time had come when the land ant'
the landed gentry ought to support the poor; and un-
til they adopted some suck measure, the interests
of that country never could be advanced. —( Hear,
Not having much property in Ireland, he might not be a suffi
cient witness, but lie could not get rid of the impression that
the landlords ought to be responsible for the support of the
poor. He gave the present Government full credit fur the
exertions they had made for the improvement of the poor it
Ireland ; and he trusted they would be carried out. When
the Noble Lord who introduced the measure for the formation
of railways had stated that this could only be a tempoiars
measure, he was anxious for a permanent measure for the
relief of the poor.
Lord JOHN MANNERS conceived that unless some
permanent measure were introduced, it would be worse
than useless, for, unless that were done, it was only weak-
ness to legislate. Out of a population of five hundred thou-
sand, this measure was only calculated to give relief t,
three hundred thousand labourers. Admitting that this
measure was calculated to administer relief to sin
hundred thousand heads of families, yet it was evi-
dently inadequate to the circumstances of the case.
They had then to look to the measures of the Government
and he must confess that thee measures which they proposed was
totally inadequate for the purpose which they professed to
serve, anti admitting all the facts which the Noble Lord hat
adduced at the commencement of the session for the improve-
ment of the wt.ste lands in Ireland, he still could no
perceive that there was anything like an assurance that
these measures would answer the purpose for which the.,
were propounded.—( Hear, hear.) On the remark, of his No
ble Friend the Member for Lynn. he would offer no comments
but he might say, that on the facts which he had adduced n.
one could express the slightest doubt. That Noble Lord ha.
stated that by his project employment would be provided fro
upwards of five thousand heads of families as su-
periotendents of the works which he had advocated.
and none of those assertions had been contradicted.
and then the House looked to the opportunity which was af-
forded for the employment of the people, he thought that the
House would be assured that the measures of the Government
would in no way prove superior for the advantage of the people
Admitting that 5,000 heads of families were to be provided fo,
he the scheme of waste lands, he then came to ask what was
to be effected by any scheme for increased emigration. The
Noble Lord had said that he did not intend greatly to increase
the facilities for emigration, and supposing Gist the increase
would accommodate 5.000 heads of families more, they the
came to the extended fisheries. With all these schemes—thy
drainage—the education scheme—and the fisheries—publ•c
works—there could not be more than 100,000 heads of families
provided for. He asked then, what became of the half million
of persons which remained.—( !dear, hear. ) What was to
become of them, and what measures did the Government
intend to adopt for their relief. He would put before tle
House the reasons which induced him to think that they hat
still population to provide fur. Ile agreed that they had a right
to expect increased exertions on the part of the Irish landlord
and increased cultivation of the land. They ought to rely
greatly on the Irish landlord for the employment of these la-
bourers, and there-fore they ought to take care to give such
poor-law as would not depress, but facilitate the exertions of th.
Irish proprietors. The measure was one of the greatest im
portance, and ought to be approached with the greatest caution
Ir was a measure which ought to.enahle Irishmen to look bard
with pleasare, instead of sorrow, to the period of the calamity
which afflicted them. lie felt that a portion of this Bill tended
in the most direct manner to interfere with the exertions of
Irish landlords. It made no difference between those landlords
who spent their incomes in the improvement of their estates
and the amelioration of the condition of the peasantry, anti
those who spent their incomes uselessly at Bath or at Naples
The present measure would destroy the last remnant of that
ancient parochial and territorial system which had
tended so much to the benefit of the country.
Let them conceive the feelings of the man who was rated for
his portion of the expenses, when he had exerted himself to
the utmost in the maintenance of his own poor, and who had
forborne to place a burden upon those who were in distress
let them conceive his feelings when rated equally with the•
man whose tenantry knew or slice nothing of him, except a,
certain periodical visits. He could riot bring himself tee sup-
port such a system—a system which pressed equally upon the
man who did his duty and the man who neglected it in every
respect. lie thought, unless the House would show a Insider
wisdom than had hitherto been shown by her Majesty's Go-
vernment, they would extend a curse rather than a boon to
Ireland, by an extended poor-law. They should make Irish
property answerable to the Irish poor, but not in the way
in which her Majesty's Government proposed to do. Unless
that care were taken in imposing a Poor-law upon lrelano
session after session, would Irish misery form a never ending
heme of discussion in that House, and one which would never
be properly remedied unless greater caution were adopted.—
( Ilear, hear). He agreed with the Noble Lord (Lord J.
Ruasell) in the hope that the old feuds and old jealousies of
bygone years would be extinguished in Ireland. He hoped
that in this great affliction that had fallen on the nation thus,
old jealousies would he buried in oblivion, and that the future
historian, after recording the sad struggl,sa between the two
rival communions and the two hostile races, and after painting
the horrors of this eventful warfare, would be able in a new
chapter to say—
.' Henceforth all discord ends,
One common woe hath made two rivals friends."

Mr. LA BOUCH ERE said that he should not direct his at-
tention to the details of the Bill before the House, several of
which- were most important, but to that which he believed to
be the main principle of the measure. He should not, there-
fore follow the Noble Lord who had just sat down into the ques
tion of whether the s) stem of rating should be placed upon the
unions or upon the electoral divisions; nor should he advert to
the proposition made by several gentlemen, of increasing the
number of ex officio guardians ; because he thought that in
stead of mixing up all these details into one general description
it was the rule of that House to consider them severally is
committee, when the clauses relating to them were brough.
forward ; and it would be of more use to c,
fine themselves to the general principles of the measure.
That principle was one of the must important kind—it was
whether the system of out door relief should, however
slight, be extended to the able-bodied poor its Ireland Hr
confessed that, for his own part, he should be willing to take
the justification of the measure which ban been proposed b)
her Majesty's Government from the 'perches which had beet
made in vindication of its prim iple by gentlemen connected
with Ireland, and which had beets addressed to the House in
the cimrse of the evening. He alluded particularly to those
speeches made by the Noble Lord the Al,mber for Down-
shire, his Hon. Friend the Alember for Waterford, and the
lion, anti Gallant Member representing Londonderry. The)
were three gentlemen entitled, by their experience as Irish
landlords, their intimate acquaintance with she local concerns
of Ireland, and the honourable anxiety which they had
evinced in their respective localities to improve the
condition of the people around them, as well as any
Members of that Ilouse could be, to express an opinion upon
this subject. Thme three gentlemen could not be influenced
by
yie Et heng"ilirh 'Ailtie'mb nattributed t theuse
namely—that lush
anAle_mtbht Members
obfy sotnetit
t
support-
ing the measures devised for the relief of Ireland, without any
indivirtual regard to Irish interests. Tne flon.Me
Member had
it
said that he opposed the introduction of out-door relief, as
was introducing a dangerous priociple into
operation ; but the
question was, a great calamity had overtaken Ireland, the
potato-crop had failed, and henceforth the people of Ireland
must either starve or he enable to earn wages. Such
was the state of things, and he said it was no longer
possible to leave them to chance, or to the support derived from
voluntary contributions, but that a provision must be made by
the Legislature to support these persons. They had now ar-
rived, if not to the end of the discussion, at least to the second
night of it, and he had heard no aeswer to the question pro-
pounded by the Noble Lied at the head of the Government in
his opening statement, which was the alternative before them,
either to maintain the pea le or allow them to starve. No one
had said let them be lett to perish, or that. England, or the
imperial treasury, should maintain them. On the contrary,
though it. was admitted that Ireland at present had peculiar
claims on this country, it was held right that the destitute people of
Ireland should be supported by the property and the soil of Ire-
land. This was the principle of the present wi.thyi, s which
onlyelhtehad
no doubt would be agri ed to by acs immense r
of English, but of Irish Members, and be ma.ie the law of the
land. The Noble Lord who had just sat Bowe, stated that he
was not against the measure, but he objected to it, because it
was not accompanied by oti.er large and comprehensive mea-
sures. He (Mr. Labouchere) admitted that the Bill should be
viewed in connexion with the general scheme of the
Government, but he could not but see that the
main objection of the Noble Lord arose from the
rejection of the favourite scheme for railways in-
troduced by the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn. This
constituted the main objection of the Noble Lord, but he (Mr.
Labouchere) could not see how the measure could have met
evils of the case. The Hon. Member for the University of
Dublin had referred to the state of the county of Mayo, and
asked how it was possible fir the proprietors, under such cir-
cumstances, to support the destitute? This was an extreme
case which the Hon. and Learned Member cited. But sup-
posing that Mayo was kit as it was, he (Mr. Labouchere)
would ask another question, would the property of the pro-