The Sun.
London, England, 1841-03-17 00:00:00

MOWNINtI- .E.I)

411 SW
RE vras sure
try?
Ittat,:rit was GeMnirlemLahnßh?dUrrCisilunE,:V,t3ed his
intention ;to ;:urgli
sda-etlgtnhatof the
oNogoevelgtindeilittacarl' r
uon the Danish Goverament withoutjustit.,el7,.
,
' anpd propriety of putting an end to
His Noble Fiie id was, hr? believed, extremely
that these representations should be made Without deiay:
If the Right Hon. Go, t'eman art:pea-A to think that
because these grievances were cf lorg staniirg it might Lo
advisable to depart from the usual d_urse and adopt an ad-
dress to the Crown, there might be some weight in
that argument if application had bean made to the Danish
Government, and that t hey had neglected or refused to at-
tend to it; bt..t in justice to the Danish Government-he
must say that no rej rcsenta.ion had been made to it
ti I last year. Ile did not think the Government
to blame in not having made the r..,p e;entation, Lecausc,
in pc int of fact, their own attention ha?, been only re-
cently called to it, by the remorst-ances of the merchant:
of Great B:i ain. He rgrced with the Right Hon. Ger-

t!eman, that it was necessary viat these mks should be
revised and altered with as little ?elay as possible, and he
had no doubt that Vie negotiations then going on would
lead to a sFe •dy and satisfactory conclusion. In the r-•-
nionf.trat c..,.t0 the lianish Gov rament, they stated that
it would b.: desirable that these ruLtt•r3 should be brought
to a conclusion Lc! ra the opening of the nav'g ttion. Cor.-
sidering that these tills and dues wete of a s,,tremliat com-
plicated natorc, Vie Danis,3 Gavel nu cat had xprcsEe.: its
readiness at once t., make a coatession on some of those

points which piesbed trot upon the c.;mmerce of that
country. These conce4;:ons were ina!equa'.e to the just
ecm,,n(ts of that country, but consido:i.ig the mann,r in
which they had b,:en ettereo, and it bring stated ti.at they
were not made fur the purpae of intcrpceing chliy, her
Mai2sty'a Gc,vernment bad Lit it their duty to express
the rsa i f.ction at the propasti, and to accept it. Under

. . •
these circumstance', be thought his Hon. Friend would
best consult the interests of the Cammerciil community,

by withdrawing- his motion.
Mr. A. WHITE said that the subject was one of vital
importance to the commrreal into rest of filo:country, and
tLey %vete much irwiche I to his Elan. Fr;end for. brit grog
tFe subject forward, but of or the statements of the light
Hun. Genleman, ha thoug't:t the mast judicious ceurso

would be K ithd.aw the metior.
M. PEASE hoped nothing would be left undone by
Go%erune,t to bring about the entire aboliion of
those duties. The merchant-v.5.,.e1: were obliged to go

through ell sorts of obeisances by lowering their Llagf, &c.,
b. IKe the Ca,; le of Esiecur, which wi s fccquently attended
w t't great dill and inconvenience. Another great cause
f delay and embariaisment er fr..m fie Custom House
officers requiring a of ercry article in the packeger.
Alr. VILLIERS said hr hid ❑o doubt his lion. Friend
would are tte propriety of allow;vg tie prcvi ius que,t.on
to be non carried. According to what had teen sta'ed

lay the Right Hon. Gentleman the I), e,ident of the Board

of Trade,— the concessions maJe by Denmark were quite
inadequate to sali,fv the just demands that were

mr.do. lle bore! his 'floe. Friend would persevere in his
ctfurts to remedy the abuses con,plained of till I e saw his
views worked out. That was not a mere E• question,
but one in which the ‘ih word was intereAzd. Other

nations wcr.. looking now to whet E-glaud would do iu

ti oma ter. Those does were a scandal to the whole
world. Eng:a:id miglr es well ee% to establish Channel

dues on all goods th:.t were imported into this couutry.
Mr. HU IT reil cd—He trusted t`•.at a quarter of a
year wuull nut pas away lefire the Noble Lcrd would be
able to announce to the House that he had concluded a

treaty with Denmark by which the dues would be reduced
to their leAa! form. But in his opinion the dues mig`et in
some way or other be abolisl ed altogether.
The p•e,ious ques'ion was then ca.ri .d.
PETITION OF WILLIAM BAINES
Mr. EASTHOPE mcvsd that the psi i in of Wm.
Beinen now a priaoner in the gaol cf Leicester, pre-
sented February 2, he minted and circulated with the Votes.
Mr. A. WliIT F. seconded the motion. '
Lord 110 WIC K inqui-e I whether the petition had
been ordered by the Committee to be printed?
Mr. E A STil OPE replied in the negative. It was his
intention to submit a motion on Thursday next on 0 e sub-
ject of the f etili in. The petition had rot Leen printed, and,
therefore, he thought it was only fair to the House that the
petition shod 1 1 e in the hands e f Memb:re.
Dr. NICHOL—WiII the Hon. Gentleman state the
terms of his motion ?
Mr. EASTHOPE could net state the precise terms of
the motisn; but it would be founded upon the contents of
the petition.
Lord HOWICK had thought the Hon. Member had
stated no suffix ient case to justify the House in ordering
V.e pet tioo to be printed with the Votes. The Committee
which had been appointed on the subject of printing peti-
tions made a strung and unanimous representation to the
House thl-t the petitions should not be printed with the
Votes except in cases where the subject was not only to
be brought under tl.e considcra•ion of the House, but where
it was a matter of passisg and urgent rezesfity that it
should he brought in. —( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Mem-
ber had stated that the petition had not been ordered to be
printed; but from anytt ieg that had been hitherto
stated it might be inferred the Committee on public
petitions was not aware of the intention of the
Hon. Gentleman to bring the subject forward. If
any intima ion had been given to the Committee that the
subject would Fe subsequently brought under consPeratien
of the House, no doubt they would have ordered it to be
printed. The flee. Member had not shown that there
was any particular urgency in this case, which could justify
the House in departing front the rules which had teen
laid down —( Hear, hear.) It was obvious, from the
number of similar notices rebirth appeared in the Votes,
that if the House did rut set its face-agent:A the practice,
and resist the attempt to &pert from the general rule,
each 111 r mbcr would think his own case most important,
and would ...Link the application of his own ecnstiturnts was
one which ought to be specially at ended te, and in that
. manne-, lit le by bole, a rule would be broken which had
been found to work with great advantage.—( Hear, hear.)
As no case had been made out fe. acceding to the mbtior,
he feet bound to oppose it. The best way would be `or
the floe. Member to bring the subject under the conside-
ration cf the Ccmn i tee upon petitions, and he had no
doubt that neat vccek it would be ordered it to be printed.
Mr. EASTIIOPE Laing concluded that there
could be no possible objection to the printing of the
petition under the circumstances of his basing given
notice that he intended on Thursday to found a
motion upon i', be did not imagine that it would
have been necessary to occupy the House by stating the
grounds on vvllith he moved the petition be ;Tinted. The
petit'on conts ieed a mere stateater t of the circumstances
aid the causes which had led to the c .r,firrement of the
petitioner, and the time he had bees confined, and
prayed that the House would adopt some measure Le the
purpose of releasing him from his confinement. On two
occasions the Heure had declared that the cause of the
petitioner's confinement ought to be removed, end he only
asked that the subject should be brought before the House,
in the hope that it would lead to some pr .ctical reins'.
Thinking it would be a great severity on the petitioner to
tell him that his piteisn should not be prince', so as to
meet the eyes cf every Member of tee House, he
must press the printing of the peritior, and if it wns op-
posed he should divide the House upon it.—( Hear. j
Mr. WARBURTON hoped the motion of his Hon,
Friend would be acceded to, for it came 'distinctly
within the regulation which the House itself had laid down.
He should be exceedingly jealous of restricting any
further than it was already restricted, the right of de-
bating on petitions; then:fere, he did hope that the
petition would be printed and laid before the House pre-
vious to the day when the debate on the merits of the
petition would come on,
Lord STANLEY s,i I he confessed tbat whether the
House acquiesced in the motion for printing the pcti ion
or not, he thought the present was not a case in which
the subject of rietieg or not printing came under con-
sideration. The petition which was the subject of dis-
PetitiAaticirgousttt;tarcetdigthhheet
cussion was presented on the 2d of February, four
or five days sf.er the opening of the session, and
consequently one to which the attention of the Com-
mittee for printing petitions was immediately di-
rected, yet, up to the present time, they had
not printed the petition, although others of more
recent date were printed. The natural jefer-
ence to be drawn from that was, that in the petition itself
there were some grounds that led the Committee to eb-
stain from printiag it. Ile was not aware that there wcre
eny lion. Members present mho took an active part hi. that
Committee, arid could theretore inform hints (Lord S-atn;
ley) I,llp.th!r there were any grounds for the Contsri'htart,
nut printing the pitfall. He would wish to.s.keree. they
le c terse if tnere were any such groundshie° goiti'm'now ,r_
would form a tt. ong• argument against
: i tcase, bewever that
dirarg the petition to be praitc('•
the
:ranll 3uhs
he trusted
hu l ti
ja:c
wceodueidtoditr?chtret
with the Votes, for the use of t
Mr. E ASTHOPE said he had petition to be printed
a Members only.
d no objectian to the adop.
ruction of the Hon. 'Gen_
lion of that coAsTr6
ERE said that the difficulty which
teiertmootfthwehpicch.
Mr. LAB
s, petition was to be pr.iletoendteunin-:
ilwa., that he apprehended the rule of
hea inolecj
e imp tionincet
that
:61
threien
theilleessf:li -I: te.;buia?d:
Bornedfni rLece
.'! nhclai i
gi u:
vael
nr enfoc
triecne e. e tie!
tition scenic a g
an ewe. ---ed secret our. Trueetrh
a thoPschtonuard. be wooed, in gasser was trul' • in his motion to 0 ' -
andi wifashaispeHr.of.encotulyrabsil..htFt:h . d
petition„e what the nature cf the comp'aint made by the peti-
tioner wa'. But if the imoi m was a mere general ore
on the subject of Cherch-rater, he thought that they could
oat; riso. 7:les,.
not, w:thout infringing on the rule made in those
es
direct the psi: tang of the ecti ion as of course. Hceaseid
think that it was of importance that they ought tceadhere
to whatever rues wets; once laid down, not only with
respect to pettions on which, such as the present, cer•
fain feelings were entertained, but also with respect to
those on which no such feelings were experiedeed.
-Mr. B ROTH Ewr ON said that the rule of the Com-
mittee for the printing of petitions was, that no petitions
from iad.viduals should be printed unless they complained
of personal griavancss. When petitions were of a gene-
ral nature, it was not considerect necessary to print them.
Mr BAI N E S sail that the Hon. Member who had
just sat down declared that petitions were not printed
unless they compl iced of some is, sena' grievance. Now,
if imprisonment was not a personal griNaneF, aund a very
great one, toe, he ( Mr. Baines) kre;v not what
.as a. I et--
woell hardly do justice to
i venal grievance. The House
of .
publication the pet,-
its own feelings if it withheld the
..eesttry Intormation
woulid priaet the petition, and
tion on which the motion was to be grounded ; for the real
qoueersetbioynowbtaasinwitthremt h,ecyv,s
Hon.
the :
Gentleman,
. relative to the motion of fee
T. DUNCOMBE concurred with the Right
Mr.
Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade as
lion.
to the propriety of strictly adherir g to the rules laid down
relative to the subject under discuseion ; end, in accord-
ance with these rules, he (Mr. D.) mainteined that the
petit;„ ought to be printed. In February 1939, that
House bad come to a decision as to the necessity of
adhering to the established practice with respect to
the presentation of petitions that had been laid
down, by the Speaker, The flume divided 'on the
incasions 10611 tbore was a susiority of 148 to
d alluding

MORNING EDITION.

43 in favour of .adhe.ing to the practice so 161 down.
The rule in favour of which that decision was come to,
laid down that all petitions presented relating to subjects
which Hon. Members wished to bring under the considera-
tion of the House, were to be printed with the Votes, on
the Member giving notice when he presented the petition
that he would bring forward a motion on the subject. He
contended that unless that rule were rescinded, the Hon.
Membar for Leicester had a right to have the petition
printed. There was a general impression out of doors,
that the right of presenting petitions in the House had
been gradually restricted, and he thought that if they re-
fused to accede to the motion they would confirm that
opinion.
Sir GEORGE GREY said that he did not think that
the request made by the Hon. Member for Leicester was
an unreasonable one. He• understood the rule of the
House to be, that when a Member wished that a petition
should be printed, he should pledge himself to bring for-
ward a specifics motion founded on it on a certain day.
If the contrary were the law the sooner it were abolished
the better.
Mr. WARD said that the rule laid down by the Right
Hon. B moret was not conformable to the practice of the
House. He had always understood that a petition was
printed on the understanding that a motion regarding it
was to Fe brought forward within fourteen days. Many
restrictions were already imposed on Members presenting
petitions, and he did not think that the law on the subject
should be further limited.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER con-
fes;ed that he thought that in this particular ca-e consi-
d( ring that the party had already suffered a more than
common grievance, the petition might be printed with
the sanction of the Committee. lie could not, how-
ever, conceive what was the motive for the mystery
which was observed by the Hon. Member who had in-
troduced tie motion.
Sir R. PEEL said that it should be remembered that
since the pasaing of the rule to which the Honourable
Member for Fieshery had referred, a Committee had
been appointed, to wl ieh the whole question et'
the privileges of that House and the printing
of petitions and other pavers had been referred.
That Committee. of which the Hon. Member for Leicester
and the lion, Member for Briolport had been members,
came to a resolution that. in theh- opinion, before the
House ordered a petition to be printed, it should be shown
not merely that the subject of such a petition would be
brought under the consideration of the House, but that it,
being so would not even admit of such a delay a 3 would be
occasiorel by its being referred in the first instance to the
Committee on petitions. That recommendation of the
Committee had not been adopted by tie House, but he
thought it would be advisab'e t 3 adlie-e to it as much as
possitle; and that it merited their best consideration.
The rule adopted by the House was this—that in case of
all petitions presented relative to any subject which a Mem-
her wished to bring under the consideration of the House,
or to be printed with the Vot', notice should be given at
the time of presenting tie p. tit on, of the day on which
he was to bring forward the motion. Oa the die, how'.
ever, on which the lion. Member had presented the peti-
tion, he had not given such notice. Helier?, it: truth, to make
a motion to meet the [ctitien, but he presented a peth ion to
meet a motion. It was only five weeks after the Hen. Mem-
ber had given not ice of this mole,: that he hid move.] far
the Printing of the petition. Now he ( Sir R. Peel) did
not think tbst that was complyirg with the eq dalished
rule; of that House. He put nut of the questi )n alto-
gether the nature of the pi ti ion, for he thouelit it would
be unfair of them to allow themselves to be ifflee-teed by
such a consideration. lie felt that they ought to adopt im-
partially the same ru'e on all ocessiens ; but Le did not
think that the Hen. Member hai any reason to ask for an
exemption from that rule He was a opinion that the
lion. Gentleman should not he ragaired to say whether his
motion was to be it general or a special one; but he be
lieved he would do well to recede to the motion for print-
ing the petition for the use of Members only.
Mr. EAST HOPE said that he had ahesarly state I, and
in perfect rood faith, that he intended to submit on
Thursday a motion to the House groanded oa tie petition,
and he had detarmieed to refrain from any gore--
rad discussion oa the que tion of Church-rates.
Since he have given notice, he had been urged by parties
interested in t'-e quettiun to delay its introduction till a
more advanced period of the Session, while he had Leen
urged by the friend] of the petiiioner to bring his spec tie
griever:le f trward as soon as possible, with a view to ad-
vance his release. Oa Thursday it was his inteation to
bring forward the c 'se of Mr. Baines, bat he would rot
bring on any general dissuasion on the subject of Church-
rates. He felt that in bringing forward such a motion it
was most essential that the petition should be printed, and
in the hinds of Members, in order that they might refer
to it in the course of the discussion that was likely to arise.
—(Hear, hear.) He could not help thinking that if be
had made his motion without having the petition printed,
there might be a just ground of complaint egainst him,
that the substance of the petition was not generally knots n.
He hoped, so long as he had the honour of a seat in that
House, that he would never resort to any underhand mean-,
in order to entrap it into a discussion, without giving pra-
'hen notice of his intention.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL promised, after the
explanation of the lion. Gentleman, that no objection would
be made to the motion. It now appeared that the peti-
tioner complained of a personal gtievance, and, under the
circumstances, he did not think there could be any objec-
tion to the moti
Lord HOW I(;K, after the explanation of the Hon.
Member, was net dispesei to press his objection ; but he
thought the lion. Member should have made a represen-
trtioo on the subject t.) the General Committee on

Lord STANLEY understood the motion would be to
print the petition for the we of Members only.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought the sugges-
tion a most jadicioua one ; and, as they now had the power
of prin:iag whatever they thought proper, it was one they
ought to cxereit:e with great discretior.—( Hear.)
The tro.i.on was then 4..r2ecl to.
Mr. BAINES then rose Er le to bring in a Bill
for the better enrolment of burzesses of boroughs, di.
vided into wards, in England and Wales, and fir aite.i g
the time forcertain elot tens in stieh boroughs.—Agrecd to.
'lhe ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved for loave to
bring in a Bill to facilitate the administration of erimi al
justice in certain boroughs. From the state of the oppo-
site benches—(there was not a single Member on the Op-
position benchei.)—he did not anticipate much objection to
his motion.—(Great laughter.) The Bill referred to
the boroughs of Birmingham, Manchester, and Bolton,
which had lately obtait el a specific jurisdiction of their
own ; but, there ix ing no gaols in these boroughs, it had
IN et found necessary to introduce the present measure to
enable these boroughs to build goal..
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
The East Indio Rum Bill, the Mutiny Bill, and the
Marine Mutiny Bill, were severally read a third time.
Colonel SIBTIIORP moved—" That an humble
ad-
dress be presented to her Majesty, praying that she will
be graciously pleased to give directions that there he laid
before th:s House, copies of the several communications
between her Majesty's Secretary of State for the Home
Dc artrnent and the Tl4,4asury, relative to the appointment
of Mr. Vizard, as Solicitor to the Home Department,
with a salary of 1,500/. a year."— Agreed to.
The Home then Adjourned at Twenty Minutes past
Sev.zn o'Clock.