The Sun.
London, England, 1840-05-20 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON WEDNESDAY, MAY 20, 1840.

whether his Noble Friend's assertion was well founded or
not. f_.‘vi;-7-,;t,tb Coc• int(l-estg of the MA people
:vero the I.Tarcizis had
stated that the 'Arms Act expired this Session.
The Marquis of NORAIANBY—That was my im-
pression.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH said the Noble Mar-
quis had distinctly stated that it was not the intention of
the Government to bring in an Act to renew it.

The Marquis of NORMANBY had stated distinctly
that his Noble Friend was not at that moment prepared
(and these were his words) to recommend an alteration in
the Arms Act, but he had not pledged himself to the
course his Noble Friend would take.

The Maiquis of WESTMEATH thought that was a
dereliction of duty, because the real state of the question
should have been in the knowledge of the Executive Go-
vernment ; it showed how much those who were obliged to
live in that country were left to take care of themselves by
the Government.

The Earl of CHARLEVIL LE must reply to the
assertion of the Noble Marquis. that he had merely stated
vague rumours. On the contrary, his information was
perived from communication with the Magistrates.
Tire Noble Marquis must have been aware that a meet-
ing had taken place in that district, and the result
fully bore out his assertion.
Lord MONTE AG I.E said the meeting to which the
Noble Earl alluded, had taken place in that part of the
country where his own property was situated. The rest)•
lutions had been communicated to him, and he felt it his
duty, although he could not conceive anything more in-
convenient, or prejudicial to the interests of Ireland, than
these desultory conversations taking place night after
night, without any sort of notice—he repeated, although
the system was very inconvenient, he felt it his duty to set
the House right. It would appear, from what had been
stated by the Noble Earl, that his assertions were borne
ont by the resolutions adopted at the meeting. The main
charge of the Noble Earl was, that the police were en-
couraged to neglect their duty, by reason of the supposed
impunity they received from the Irish Government ; and
then the . Noble Earl said be made that charge,
not upon vague rumour, but upon the autho-
rity of Magistrates. Now, he (Lord Montragle) had
received the resolutions, and there was no possible coun-
tenance given to the Noble Earl's statement. It was,
therefore, the mere unsupported statement of the Noble
Earl himself against the whole of the Irish Government,
and casting imputations upon a most useful body of men,
the police force of that country, who should be supported
by all parties. He complained of the Noble Earl making
loose statements, which he doubted whether he could sup-
port, and which he had not the generosity to retract ; and
a new element was thus thrown in the way of the execu-
tion of their duties by the police in Ireland. With respect
to the disturbed state of the county of Limerick, he begged
leave to bear his testimony to the fact, that it never was in
a state of more entire and complete tranqaillity.—
( Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl must also be aware
that there was a groat difference of opinion as to the pro-
ceedings of the Magistrates, and that they were considered by
many premature and incinsiderate, and some of the largest
landed proprietors in that part of the country declared
they would have nothing to do with them. lie trusted
that in future those who had the means would have an op-
portunity afforded them of answering the questions pro-
posed to them ;_but let them not lose the public time by
desultory conversations, and let them not Inflict injury on
the public service by placing credence in general ru-
mour, which ought to have no weight in that House or
elsewhere.

The Earl of CHARLEVILLE explained. fle un-
derstood that it was intended to put a question to the
Noble Marquis relative to the Registration of Arms Bill.

After a ft;ty words from Lord AIONTRAGLE and the Earl
of GLENGALL, the conversation dropped.

CHURCH OF SCOiLAND.

The Earl of ROSEBERY laid on the table the Report
of the Select Committee upon the Church of Scotland.
The Earl of SCARBOROUGH presented several pe-
titions from parishes in the North of England against any
alteration in the Corn-laws.

The Entail Relief (Scotland) Bill passed through
Committee.

CHURCH-RATES.

The Bishop of NORWICH presented a petition from
the town of Norwich on the subject of Church-rates, and
in doing so lie wished to call the attention of the House to
the Church-rate question. He wished that that question
should be settled, ;or until it was settled there would, he
was sure, be constant bickerings and altercations on the
subject, and whatever party might fail or triumph the cause
of religion must necessarily suffer. He therefore agreed
with the petitioners in thinking that the question of Church-
rates should be finally and speedily settled. In the next
place, he agreed with the petitioners that a Dissenter was
not bound to support the Established Church or a clergy
to which he was adverse in all those luxuries and those
variety of circumstances included under Church-
rates.—( Hear.) But he did not agree with the
petitioners in saying the Dissenters should be altogether
excluded from the payment of Church-rates, because he
conceived that those ancient edifices of the country should
not be neglected. Every person who was in possession of
property, whether by inheritance—whether by purchase,
or in land, should consent to have that property taxed; as
he could not but have obtained it subject to such a tax, and
he (the Bishop of Norwich) thought it extremely unfair that
such a person should now draw b Lck and be excluded from
the pay ment of rates which went to support those ancient edi-
fices, of which, whether he be Churchman orDissenter, he
ought to feel proud. For his part, if he were living in a
country in which the religion of the State was different
from that which he professed, and if he had purchased land
under a liability to a certain tax, he should think it his
duty to pay that tax, and he considered it unfair and dis-
crcditabe to petition to be absolved from the payment of
it. The Right ILv. Prelate then laid the petition on the
table of the House.

The Bishop of EXETER said he was sure there was
none of their Lordships but would approve of the senti-
ments expressed by the Right Rev. Prelate, and would not
only not think the attempt fair, but on the contrary, to be
reprobated to fix on the Dissenters the charge of the lux-
uries, as they were called, for which Church-rates were
paid. He rejoiced these Dissenters had put their petition
in the hands of the Right Rev. Prelate, who had done
them and himself justice in the observations which he had
made.

On the motion of the Marquis of LANSDOWNE,
the Tithe Commutation Act was read a third time aild
passed.
PUNISHMENT OF TRANSPORTATION.

The Archbishop of DUBLIN said he bad a petition to
present, containing 225 signatures, of residents in London
and Westminster, praying for the entire abolition of the
punishment of transportation, and among them were the
names of five or six respectable merchants, trading to New
South Wales. He could not but regret this great subject
had not fallen into the hands of some more practised de-
bater than himself. It was a subject of much importance,
and in many respects, of peculiar difficulty, but he did net
consider it difficult with respect to the main question before
the House, but difficult in overceinieg hostile pre-
judices, and calling attention so the subject. lie
had been for many years engaged upon it, having
had it, in the first instance, forced upon his attention,
and had been sometimes inclined to regret the advantage
it possessed in not being a party question, for, not being so,
it had met with almost entire indifference from all parties.
Many had told him they had not thought much about the
subject ; but when he had iuduced them to do so, they
shrunk from the foul and loathsome details necessary to go
through, and said it was a question of great difficulty and
they had rather not meddle with it. Difficulties, of
course, there must be, in legislating on any important
subject, the more particularly on one which had been so
long the subject of unwise legislation. Difficulties there
must be in providing good measures for the country, still
more in undoing unwise measures, ani they were pleaded
with good reason in this case—the slothful man said there
was a lion in the way. lie had, howevery to congratulate
the country that more attention had of late been called to
it. Perhaps some persons might think he ought to rest
satisfied with the intention of the Government, which had
been elicited in another place, but he was convinced so
little would be done if the proposed modifications were
carried into effect, and also that Ministers were not
so convinced of the sufficiency of their own modifica-
tions, that he could not but hope the expression of the opi-
nion of the House might induce and enable them to
go further. He wished to remind their Lordships,
the scheme of transportation as it at present existed was
most strongly protested against by Howard, and, further,
by Lord Bacon ; and he was contented to be censured, as
he had been, in the company of Howard and Bacon. He
bad had his attention first called to the subject when he
held a living in Suffolk ; and, from his observations then,
he was convinced that if fifty persons were transported, and
five returned, the five would come back with more vice
than the fifty carried out with them. He was convinced
none of the clergy who had advocated the abolition cf
slavery, but must wish the abolition of the system of as-
signment of convicts to a master, which was a worse
system of slavery, and productive of worse effects. And
when it was seen what inducements were held out to them
to commit crimes, as was proved, he could not honestly
pray to be preserved from temptation, and remain silent on
the system which led our brethren into it. In the answers
which his publications on the subject had elicited, he had
never heard any reason to any argument or refutation
of any fact he had advanced which did not attribute to him
something quite different from what he said. The Right Rev.
Prelate then alluded to his writing on the subject in reviews,
and his letters to Earl Grey, and his refutation of the
opinions of various persons, among others of Sir George
Arthur, and the present Bishop of Australia, and said he was
accused of taking his arguments all from one side, and he
had done so, but it was not his own side, for he was
anxious that he might not be misled. In most cases he
found that the reply to his statements was whether he had
any substitutes of his own to propose. Now the fact was
he never proposed any substitutes. He had thrown out
suggestions of many. He only endeavoured to prove that
the present system was tiny worst that could possibly be in
existence. In order to get rid of that most obnoxious sys-
tem he had proposed the formation of a Commission to
take evidence both in this country and foreign countries,
in order to find out, not the best punishment that could
be awarded, but the best means of preventing crime, which
was the object of all punishment. He was so far gratified
that a Commission was appointed to report upon the neces-
sity of a rural police. The Report made by that
Commission was a most important one, and though
not pleasant reading, was most interesting, and
they trusted that the number of criminals would be
diminished by the establishment of improved rural as well
as town police. It was impossible to read the Report
without seeing that means might easily be adopted for
suppressing crime, and that it was in vain to hope that
punishment, however severe or cruel—it was impossible to
read it without seeing that no punishment could strike at
the root of the disease. If the state of the preventive police
was such that persons of notoriously bad habits—that per-
sons having appetites larger than they had the means of
supplying, had a prospect of running their career with im-
punity for a few years, many would be found to follow it
in the same manner as persons were found to follow the
trades of house-pointers and needle-4rinCers—when they
had a moral certainty that this career would be closed by
the age of 36. The mode of answering him was by rc-

presenting him as proposing some specific system which
e-outoi seta bounty upca crime, and ae the same time prove
a source of great expeese to the country. That line of
argument was taken by Colonel now Sir George Arthur,
but he would not then combat anything said or written by
him (the Archbishop of Dublin). But he was combating
a pure chimera of his own. It was also reported and be-
lieved in many places, that his plan was to provide a
criminal with an outfit; that his passage was to be paid to
some colony, where he was to be set up in business, and
was not only to go without punishment hut to be rewarded.
This was most justly represented as a bounty on crime.
But this was far from what he had given to the public.
What he had said was that persons released from peniten-
tiaries or the like, after expiration of the punishment—
that such as had indicated any disposition to reform, should,
at their own desire, be furnished with means to take them-
selves to the colonies, either British or Foreign. That
was a very different matter to what was represented of him.
If he was holding out any bounty on crime, it was after
that crime bad been atoned for by the parties suffering the
punishment showing some symptoms of amendment, and
expressing a desire to get to some place where it would not
be known that they had suffered the punishment of the
law. It was only because the whole subject was so hor-
rifying and disgusting that such flimsy answers could be
given,
not only to his statements, but to volumes upon that
subject. If any of their Lordships would not read through
that volume he held in his hands, but open it at any pas-
sage, he would see such a system of horrors Volt he would
be no party to the continuance of that system for even
one year longer,—( Hear, hear, hear.) It was worse
than the system of Negro Slavery which this
country had so gloriously put an end to. The master
of the slave had an interest in the welfare of the slime, as
much as he had for his cattle ; but if t he master of an as-
signed servant was of a brutal disposition, he had no such
check upon him. On the other hand, if the master were
of a timorous disposition, or lived in a remote part of the
country, and the servant, as was to be expected, was of a
depraved habit, then the master lived under the slavery of
his slave. No slavery, however, was so bad as a nation
consisting,wholly of gaolers and prisoners, of hardened
offenders, and executioners and their posterity. What
could be worse than such a nation? Had there been an
example of it, not only in Christian but in Pagan times?
A few years ago the population of New South Wales
amounted to somewhere about 77,000. Almost one-third
of those were actual convicts, and one-half of the remainder
emancipists; that left about 30,000, a large portion of
whom wore the children of convicts and emancipists. All
the truly respectable colonists of New South Wales and
Van Diemen's Land, he believed, would be very much
obliged to him for what he was about. Of course he
would be pleased that it were so ; but if all mankind were
against him, still he would do that which he conceived to
be his duty, but the clue he had alluded to would thank him ;
fot what could be a greater impediment to the emi-
gration of free labour than, as he world call it, the So-
dom and Gomorrah state of those countries? What they
wanted was a free, an honest, and industrious population.
But how could that be introduced among a population
where vice was virtue, and virtue vice? He had incurred
much blame for having discouraged the emigration of
those free and independent labourers. Most undoubtedly
he bad done so, and would continue to give such advice
to any one who honoured him by asking it so long as the
transportation system was continued. It had been said
that the only way to purify such a nation was to send out
large numbers of free and honest labourers. They might
as well try to purify the worst sewer in London by pour-
ing a few cups of water into it as hi.pe to altar the
system of society in those colonies while transportation
continued. The system had been tried sometime ago
A large number of women, who were then virtuous, were
sent out, but they had turned out as he had propesied at
the time, nineteen .twentieths of them, almost as a matter
of course, had become profligates of the vary worst
character.—( Hear.) Stop the colonization by convicts
sitogether, and then send out large bodies of free and
honest labourers, not by scores or hundreds, but by thou-
sands and tens of thousands, and then they might hope to
swamp the evil, just as they might hope to quench a fire
by throwing a quantity of green twigs, which, if thrown
on singly or in small quantities, would have fed the flame.
The keeping up of Norfolk Island as a penal settlement
would please neither parties. It would not please the
nirers of labourers in the colony, because they would be
compelled to seek them amongst the emancipists from Go-
vernment gangs of the very worst character, neither would
it please those who thought with him (the Archbishop of
Dublin) to make that island a sort of house of correction
at the antipodes. It would require much time and
patience to undo the evils already done. The fact, how-
ever, of continuing to pour fresh streams of pollution into
Norfolk Island, could not but tend to keep up in
that society such a state of things as, he believed, had
never existed before since the world began. Of that So-
ciety he could convey no adequate description. He would,
however, allude to one fact—that of there being among the
convicts six men to one woman, and in the more remote
settlements the proportion of men to women was seventeen
to One. No idea could reach the reality of the licentious-
ness to which such a state of things gave rise. They
could, therefore, resort to no worse measure than that of
overpowering a young colony with such an enormous
proportion of vice. He believed, too, that the system was
attended with greater expenses than were generally ima-
eined. The total expense of keeping prisoners for four
years in Norfolk Island amounted, he believed, to 1451.
each. The building of prisons in this country would, he
bslieved, amoent to about 1201. for each man ; and the
Governor of the gaol of Glasgow had informed him that
the expenses of each of his prisoners amounted only to 5/.
a year, which for four years would make 20/. In Eng-
land the expense might be greater, but it would be still far
less than the system of transportation to the colonies—
( Hear, hear.) It might be said, however, that those dis.
tant colonies afforded greater security for the detention
of prisoners; but, in his opinion, that advantage might be
easily obtained elsewhere. He remembered a conversation
he had on that subject with his lamented friend, Mr.
Drummond, who suggested to him Dorking- Island as a
substitute for Norfolk Island. Nothing, he added, re-
quired greater vigilance than a penitentiary, and yet their
penitentiary was placed at a distance of 16,000 miles.
But if convicts were not to be imprisoned in distant peni-
tentiaries, it was asked whether they could be allowed to
remain in the country and be let loose at home. It was
forgotten, however, that there must be some place of con-
finement, and it certainly could not be better to throw them
among a comparatively limited population rather than in a
more crowded one. In large communities convicts, after
their release, would probably remove to seine part of the
country where they were unknown; but in such a settle-
ment as Norfolk Island each convict knows the other, and
they met together and declined villainy through all its
moods and tenses.—( Laughter.) He trusted that the
Government would receive from the officers of the consta-
bulary such reports as wculd enable them to take the means
for the preventing of crime and restraining those who might
be let loose on society. Some system might be devised which
would take away from criminals the prospect of a long ca-
reer of criminal indulgence, and it should be their object to
turn their attention to that subject. If (which he hoped
would be the case) penitentiaries were erected on the
separate system, and it the present system were abolished,
he believed that though they would not have obtained all
that they might desire, that they would have done all
that, under present circumstances, could be effected for
removing half a century's duration of the most unwise,
rash, and perverse legislation, which the history of any
nation could afford. He had often dissuaded parties from
going nut to our penal colonies ; and though he had been
censured for taking such a course, he could not regret
his having done so. He should continue too to have done
so till the system of transportation was abolished. His
opinion on the subject might be ridiculed, but let their
Lerdships consider the matter calmly, and he would
ask them if they would not be ready to coincide
with him. Wou'd any of them wish that their friends,
or even their servants, should be exposed to the pollution of
the society of those !colonies ? What then could he have
done but pursue the course he had followed? Ha had
trespassed very long on their Lordship? attention, but not
longer, he way sure, than it would be allowed that its im-
portance fully demanded.—(Hear, hear.) After all, what
were Governments instituted for? and what was the use
of laws, constitutions, or Parliaments, if not to secure per-
sons and property, with peace, good order, and the mora-
lity of communities ? It seemed to him most preposterous
that they should devote their time to the dis:ussion of par-
ticular laws—to the rights of electors—to the sending of
Members to Parliament, and all the accessories of Govern-
ment, and yet that they should consider it as an inferior
matter whether the very ends of Government were attained
or not. He had strong hopes that a strong expression of
opinion from their Lordships would enable her Ma-
jesty's Ministers to take sorre sure and effectual
means for the real and bona fide abolition
of our present criminal system. He would ask their
Lordships whether they would abandon the cons dcration
of such a question merely because it did not relate to a
party or political contest ? He would most earnestly re-
commend to their Lordships to pay their hest attention to
the evidence furnished them on the subject then under
consideration. He would call upon them to take some
effectual means for removing great evils, both in this
country and the colonies. He would call on them to
save those colonies from the greatest curse that could
possibly be laid on them, and to remove from the whole
civilised world one of the most mischievous systems that
ever existed, and to remove from this country one of the
foulest stains on its character. The Most Rev. Prelate
then concluded by moving that the eunishment of trans-
portation should be immediately completely and finally
abolished.

The Marquis of NORM ANB Y said the Most Rev.
Prelate had commenced his address to the House by apo-
logising to their Lordships for pressing on them a sub-
ject possessing such few attractions, but he (the Marquis
of Normanby) was sure that any one who had listened to
the Most Rev. Prelate, and had wiinessed the talent and
research he had displayed on that subject, would be sa-
tisfied that if there were any want of attraction in the
matter, that want of attraction did not arise from the mode
in which the Right Rev. Prelate had treated it. He did
not, however, agree in ali the sentiments of the Right
Rev. Prelate. The Most Rev. Prelate had also stated
that he doubted whether the introduction of such a sub-
jeet ,was suited to his character and station, but
he (the Marquis of Normanby) thought that it
certainly became the Most Reverend Prelate to
lend the weight of his station and abilities to the consi-
deration of a subject of so grave and important a nature.
It was now many years, he believed, since the Most Rev.
Prelate had first turned his attention to the matter, but he
(the Marquis of Normanby) could not help thinking that
the speech they had just heard related to rFtrospective e:r-
cumstances, and had lift out of consideration the improve-
ments which had of late been effected in our penal settle-
ments. The Report of toe Committee of Inquiry had led
to the correction of many of the evils which the Mo-t Rev.
Prelate complained of. He believed that that improve-
ment was not merely confined to the physical state of the
convicts, but extended to their moral condition, and that
there were no longer such attractive accounts sent from
convicts to this country as were formerly the case,
—( Hear, hear.) With regard to the plan pro-
posed by the Most Rev. Prelate, he thought that it was
liable to most serious objection. That objection was this,
. that if penal settlements were to be abolished, they could

find no substitutes in their place, The Most Rev. Pre-
late had siasi tlins ae had arara p7a-s
of which he thousahe better than the present syFtetn, though
be could nut cheeae between them. The Most Rev.
,Pre-
late had not been able to state any definite substitute which
could induce their Lordships to consent to the total abo-
lition of transportation. He wished, therefore, to call
their Lordships' attention to the inevitable consequence
which would folio* from their taking any rash step
upon the subject. lie held it to be utterly impossible
that they could go on beneficially, as they were now
doing, with the gradual abrogation of the punish-
ment of death, unless they substituted some punish
went for life. He considered that it would be
impossible, with the feelings of Englishmen, that
any punishment would be endured in this country
under the eye of its inhabitants, which would continue
for life; and far less would Englishmen endure the sub-
stitution for the punishment of death, which bad been
adopted on the Continent; namely, the plan of working
convicts as galley-slaves. Then came the question of a
penitentiary. He should say that the experiment made of
that system had not succeeded. He did not think the
Most Rev. Prelate bad treated the subject of the expense
of Penitentiaries with his usual clearness. The estimates
of those expenses were very various. A gentleman of his
acquaintance had informed him that the first expense of
erecting penitentiaries would amount to 25,000,0001., and
that the animal expense of maintaining them would be
1,500,000/. Ho made the statement merely to
show what a variety of opinions might exist on
the subject. There was another question of great
importance, and that was the health of the pri-
ssners. He believed that though a limited confinement
might not injure their health, a permanent one would very
seriously impair it'. In his resolution the Most Reve-
rend Prelate contended for an immediate abolition of
transportation, and if their Lordshirs Adopted his views the
change should be Immediate. That would be very dif-
ferent from that gradual change which he (the Marquis of
Normanby) was prepared to carry out as far as he could
consider it expedient.. He would next come to some data
for the purpose of allowing their Lordships how impossible
it would be to abolish the transportation of convicts for the
present year. If that abolition took place there wouid be
2,330 convicts thrown on their hands every year, for whom
could they provide no accommodation.—( Hear, hear.)
Even when the model prisons would be complete
they would only have accommodation for 5,000, while there
were yearly more than 7,000 sentenced to transportation.
He urged these considerations on their Lordships, in order
they might not proceed rashly in the course recommended
by the Most Rev. Prelate. There was another considera-
tion, on account of which he would particularly request
them to pause, and that was the state of the public mind
on the euhjeet of a gradual abolition of capital punish-
ments. He held that that feeling had been a progressive
one for many years, and he honoured those who encouraged
it. He had himself voted with Sir James Macintosh on
the subject, and he was ready to give every credit to a
Right Hon. Baronet ( Sir Robert Peel) a distinguished
Member of the otker House, who had carried out those
principles when hahtld the office which he (the Marquis
of Norinanbyr 'hild the honour of filling. They
should, however, be careful, how they dealt with the
public feeling on thteoubject. He was convinced that in
many of those it-Aeneas in which the punishment of death
had been ahalishett, or rarely exercised, the feeling of the
public was that in those cases death should not ensue, but
that life, as a separate and independent existence, should
cease. Tile public did not wish that blood should flow,
but that the career of the criminal should be ended.
That was the public feeling with regard to the abolition
of the punishment of death, but if they abolish transpor-
tation as a secondary punishment, he thought that they
should beware of thus throwing on the community at
large a number of evil doers. He therefore felt that the
Most Reverend Prelate, by devoting his labour to the sub-
ject, had done most essenti rl good, bat he regretted the
most Rev. Prelate bad taken the mode he had done of im-
pressing that qnsstion on their Lordships' consideration.
fie could, however, assure the. Most Rev. Prelate that at
all times he should be most anxious to receive from him
any representatasens which might lessen the evils of
the existing system.—(Hear.) He assured the Most
Rev. Prelate of the siocere respect he felt for him ;
he would not, therefore, call upon their Lordships to
give this metier) a direct negative, but feeling it to be one
it would be most eiurious to adopt, be would move the
previous question.
The Bishop of EXETER hoped he might be permit
ted to offer his sincere thanks to the Most Rev. Prelate
for having brought forward this important question. He
did not know coy subject on Which that great mind could
be more worthily employed ; and yet he must be permitted
to say the Most Rev. Prelate had somewhat disappointed
him in the mode in which he had treated it. The Most
Rev. Prelate appeared to confine himself almost entirely
to facts connected with transportation to the colony of
New South Wales. He seemed to think the only mode
in which transportation could be conducted was that in
which it had bees hitherto conducted by this country, and
did not appear to him to have taken so extensive a view of
this subject as be should have expected. That the evils
which had resulted from the system adopted in 1787
were most numerous, it was impossible to deny ; but
were these cohsequences necessary to transportation
in itself ?—( Hear, hear.) Lot it be remembered that
when this plan was adopted of colonising with convicts,
its failure was ea manifest, that the amazement was, that
the great intellects then employed in the Government of
the country should have ventured upon it ; but was it a
matter sufficiently plain that the same consequences would
have ensued if New South Wales had been colonized be-
fore it was made a penal colony ?—might they not hope a
very different result would have taken place? What was
the state of the facts relative to the colonization of New
South Wales? laire sent forth at once 1,200 convicts,
and what steps were taken to ensure their moral and re-
ligious instruction ? It was notorious that at first no
thoughts were entertained of sending a single chaplain,
but some benevolent persons interposed, and at the last
I moment obtained one chaplain to be sent forth with them.
For the first sevoil years one:person only was so employed ;
for the next serion years we sent two only. He knew
that at that period die Government and the country were
employed in that Feat contest which lasted so long, and
engrossed the minds of ail ; and he wished when that
struggle was over, some appearance of attention had been
exhibited to this great subject ; but many years elapsed,
and was there ever yet due regard that the convicts sent
out should have the means of reformation ? It might
surprise some of their Lordships, though not her Majesty's
Government, who must be aware of it, that at the present
t'me while thego were no less than 4,000 convicts in
chained page, and scattered through several districts, not
one single person was appointed by Government to be
chaplain over ars), aae of the jails in which these pcor
wretches were conffired. Could it astonish us, therefore,
that a comma,' thus abandoned, should produce the harvest
of corruption such seed must peteloce ? There were, how-
ever, small bowies given to ono or two persons to look
after one or two of these jails in Sydney. The Government
gave no less a snraythan 50/. to the Rev, Wm. Cooper to
look after the smile of thee • confined in the jail there; but
this Rev. Gentleman was also Minister of St. Philip's pa-
rish, Sydney, end had the care of the souls of 5 or 6 000
parishioners. He was, however, happy to state that the
same sum was given to a Roman Catholic Minister to at.
tend to the religious instruction of the convicts of that
persuasion, and he was also informed that they had now
the assistance of a clergyman, who, having gone out with-
out any specific deity, had been employed for that purpose.
In January, 1838, a representation was made to 'he Go-
vernor, Sir G. Gipps, by three Judges, deploring the defi
eieney of spiritnei instruction. 'Their Lordships might
expect that would have occasioned the promise of an alte-
ration, but it Wail not so—that year passed without an an-
swer, and the year 1839 parsed also without an answer.—
( Hear, hear.)" He did sincerely believe that if the Gover-
nor-General made no representation to the Government at
home, or the Government, if he did, had neglected to at-
tend to it, he or they had incurred a tremendous responsi.
bility. He did not want to go more at length than was
necessary into the subject. He admitted, while he ho-
noured the Most kci. Prelate for the motives which had
induced him to bring forward this motion, he did yet think
he had failed to establish a claim for support to it in the
terms in which it was expressed. The Most Rev. Prelate
bad made a representation of the state of morals is New
South Wales, and that he believed them to be true there
could be no deubt. He spoke of them as the most corrupt
nation that ever the snn ehone on, and as worse than pagans,
but bud we no authorities on the other side? He (the Bi-
shop of Exeter) did not assert that statements from the
colony itself must be a partial statement. He would read
a statement on the subject by the Bishop of Australia in a
Report which he bad made to the Diocesan Committee of
Education in New South Wales in 1837.—( Hear, hear.)
the Right Rev. Prelate then read an extract, and proceeded.
But this did not rest upon the averment of any individual,
however respectable. Mr. Justice Burton stated, in a
work he had recently published on the state of education
and morals in New South Wales, that in six years he had
tried about 800 or 900 persons. The population of that
place was about 110,000, of whom no less than 30,000
were natives. Supposing the other Judges to have tried
as many, there would have been only ninety of the native
population tried by all the Judges in six years. Their
Lordships would see this was but 1, in 2,000 of the
this to be considered a proof of
population, Now was
not,because, so, it proved
the state of morals in England was incalculably worse,
depraved morals? He hoped
proportion Was about one in 800.
forHe
thought
laitnd the w
asp
putting it rather too strong when he
said it was a country of the worst criminals that disgrace
He, along with the Most Rev. Prelate re-
gretteda country.
out an importation of fe-
- the failure of sending
Not Rev. Prelate had said they all went out
males. Th e
with certificates of character from the ministers of their
parishes. He could only regret that the ministers had been
to facile in granting these certificates, for he was informed
by an cyc witness of their proceedings at the Cape, and he
staid that anything more depraved or horrible than their
conduct at th&e port he had never seen.
The Areldreliop of DUBLIN said he spoke altogether
of another ship load.
The Bishop of EXETER had only heard of the one he
spoke of, anal it was as he said. The Most Rev. Prelate
had also amid that the most respectable part of the popu-
lation aretd his views—in that he was in
error, .
for the aovernor'i Council, among whore
were the mast respectable inhabitants of the colony
with his views, for they, op the
had no .sv empathy
contrary, eat,' the colony was now in a fit
state for carrying out, the enlightened views of those who
first established the transportation system, and that a well
regulated system of assignment was the best calculated for
the interests of the coln.3y. After condemning the Go-
vernment for withdrawing the Land Fund from the pur-
poses of free immigration, in order to support the police of
the colony, a iystetr; which he depre4ated much, he hoped
that part of the policy cf the Government would be re-
considered, and that means would be taken to supply spi-
! ritual instruction to those unhappy beings
who stood so
peculiarly in need of it.
The Earl of WICKLOW had been very happy to hear
that all the improvements which were contemplated were
the result of the exertions of the Most Rev. Prelate.
They fully deserved the eulogium cf the Noble Marquis.
Considering theovidence taken before the Committee of
the other House, he was astonished to hear what had fal-

len from the Rev. Prelate who had spoken last, and he
•,,,tca he would sin give oi.i alter 1 to the book he
ld in hi; hand. He had been 1-painted that the
Noble '':larquiS had rot stag:;) to wlza. 1t was in•
tended to carry the improt ements. They were told that
the system of assignment was to be put an end to. Now,
Sir George Arthur said the expense of an assigned con-
t was 4/., while his expense under any other system
would cost 141. Now he was afraid that this and Lord
John Russell's system, if carried into effect, would imnose
an expense upon this country which it was ill able to
bear, and would not be disposed to put up with. How-
ever, the Noble Marquis had not told them how much of
Lord John Russell's system was immediately to be car-
ried into effect, and Lord John Russell, in a note in
the book, had himself stated that the expense
of his own plan would be enormous, and could
not be borne—so that they were left in a state of uncer-
tainty as to the intentions of he Government further than
that they were opposing the plan of the Most Rev. Prelate.
He thought the Government intended to adopt the plan of
the Most Rev. Prelave nearly in all its integrity, and that
it was now merely a question of time ; and, if so, then all
that had fallen from the Rev. Prelate who spoke last fell
to the ground. Those to whom the Rev. Prelate alluded
as being anxious to keep up the present system, were no
doubt good men, but they dii not speak of the morality
of transportation, but spoke of it as persons who were in
want of labour at other t'..an an enormous price. As far as
morality went, it was impossible that the state of things
could be otherwise in any place where the inequality in
numbers between the sexes was so great, and that was a
state of things which no Government in a moral country
could longer tolerate. They did not want to say that they
ought to put an end to transportation at once, but
they ought to come to a resolution saying it should cease
as soon as possible. There were the Bermudas to which
convicts might now be sent, and so relieve New South
Wales ; at all events, it was very important that the
country should know what new and settled plan was to be
adopted by the Government. At all events, he hoped
that it would go forth to the country that transportation
would not hereafter be a boon.

The Bishop of EXETER explained. He had not
yet made up his mind upon the subject. He had, there-
fore, not given any opinion as to the expediency or in-
expediency of transportation.
The Bishop of NORWICH said, the country and the
Ilouse were greatly indebted to the Most Rev. Prelate for
bringing that most religious subject under consideration,
and also to the Noble Marquis for the statement he had
made. He thought it was very desirable indeed that
transportation should cease, but not until the people were
educated ; and he was most happy that her Majesty's Go-
vernment had turned their attention to that important
subject.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE agreed with the
Rev. Prelate that the thanks of the House and country
were due to his Most Rev. Friend. At that hour he would
not have risen in the debate, had it not been for
some misrepresentations of the intentions of Govern-
ment, which had been made in the course of the
evening. The Noble Earl opposite had said he knew
not what was the intention of Government from the state.
ments of Lord J. Russell. He (the Marquis of Lans-
downe) had no hesitation in stating that it was the in-
tention of the Government to advise her Majesty to dis.
continue in a great many cases in which it was the prac-
tice now to transport offenders. It was a dangerous
word to use, " immediate," in the consideration of a
question of such magnitude, but it was the full intention
of the Government gradually to diminish the number of
transports, so that they might be brought within the limits
of the expenditure of the present time. With regard to
an observation which had fallen from the Rev. Prelate
(the Bishop of Exeter) respecting the necessity of ex-
icnsive emigration, and the appropriation of the land
fund, he entirely agreed
,with him that it was to the
extensive emigration of a superior class of persons from
this country that the colony had a right to look for some
reparation for the enormous evils which we had inflicted
upon her by our system of transportation. With respect
to the land fund, no doubt it had increased beyond all
hopes or calculations, but while there had been a grow-
ing necessity for funds for the due administration of
justice and the spiritual care of the colony, there had
been also a growing indisposition on the part of the co-
lonial authorities to provide for such important purposes,
and that fund was happily at hand to provide far that
which was absslutely necessary for the welfare of the colony.
He considered that the present unfortunate state of the
colony was in a great measure owing to the want of spi-
ritual care. Much had been done to remedy this defect.
The subject bad occupied the attention of several succes-
sive Governments, and every year several additional
clergymen had been sent out. He knew the subject had
occupied the anxious attention of his Noble Friend near
him at the time he was at the head of the Colonial De-
partment; and also that during the short time that his
Noble Friend in the other House had been at the head of
that department, be had also sent out several additional
clerg) man to attend to the spiritual wants of the popula-
tion; but in order to do this he had found it necessary to
have recourse to the fund which had been alluded to by his
Noble Friend. Yet notwithstanding all this, the supply
granted for the promotion of emigration had not been
stopped. Thousands had been sent out last year. and thou-
sands would be sent out during the course of the present
year. He entirely agreed with the Right Rev.
,Prelate
as to the general question. He entirely agreed with the
Report of the Committee of the House of Commons, to
which it was the intention of the Government to adhere.
lie begged to call the attention of the Noble Earl to the
tact that that Committee had not recommended the total
abolition of the punishment of transportation, but only the
limitation of it. He believed great good would he effected
both here and in the colony, by adhering to the recommen-
dations of that Report. The law was now in a state of
transition as regarded capital punishments, and such being
the case, he could not think it advisable to give up any
punishment whatever, and least of all should he be inclined
to part with the punishment of transportation for life in cer-
tain cases. Ho believed it was necessary to have the fear
of some other punishment, instead of the fear of death, to
work upon the apprehensions of mankind. He did not
think it right that punishments should be left without de-
gree ; and he believed there was a class of persons who
were more deterred from the commission of crime by the
apprehension of being sent to suffer in a remote part of the
globe than by any other punishment ; and although he
would admit that the punishment was attended with more
expense, yet it was attended with great advantages, and
persons who had conducted themselves properly at the
expiration of their punishment found themselves located in
a society in %Inch they were capable of obtaining employ-
ment, and of getting the full value for their labour, which
they would not be able to do in this country He thought
it, therefore, desirable that the punishment .of transporta-
tion should be continued. But he agreed with the Right
Rev. Prelate. that crime would be but imperfectly re-
prc • r bed unless care were provided for the education of
the people at home, so as to cut off the supply of crimi-
nals to our Courts of Justice. He was anxious that this
motion should not be agreed to, as he was not prepared to
early the immediate abolition of transportation into effect.
But no person could be more anxious to carry into full and
immediate effect the penetentiary system than her Majesty's
Government. He had listened with great satisfaction to
the debate, which he thought would tend to enlighten the
mind of the public on the subject, and he should Wait have
troubled their Lordships at such length, had he rot thought
it his duty to state what were the views of her Majesty's
Government ou the subj2et.
The Bishop of EXETER explained that he had not
intended to say that the iron-gangs were totally devoid of
spiritual instruction, but that no chaplains were appointed
for that purpose specially.

The Marquis of NORMANBY explained, and said
that the subject had attracted the most anxious attention
of the Government, and he stated that during the time he
had been in office, no subject had attracted his more anxious
attention than the spiritual wants of the Australian
Colonies.

The Archbishop of DUBLIN in reply stated, that all
that he had asserted with regard to the moral state of the
Australian Colonies, was borne out by the evidence taken
before the two Committees of the House of Commons,
which had never been rebutted by the colonists, although
they had had ample time to do so. That there were some
splendid exceptions he did not deny, and they were the
more meritorious on account of the atmosphere of crime
by which they were surrounded, and as long as the
colony was exposed to the influx of criminals, such
must necessarily be the case. It was at present the
place in which those who had undergone the punishment
at Norfolk Island or Tasman's Peninsula were located ;
and Sir Edward Parry had told him only a few days ago
that it was impossible for any man to go through the Pc.
niteutiary at Norfolk Island without turning out a double
distilled villain. Under these circumstances a moral re-
formation was totally impossible. To effect that not only
should no more criminals be sent out, but thousands of
honest settlers should be sent out in order to produce a
new standard of public opinion. He knew that peniten-
tiaries could not be built all at once, but when he proposed
the abolition of transportation he merely wished to
move the penitentiaries sixteen thousand miles nearer home,
to Dorking Island or Lundy Island, for instance
where prisoners cou'd be guarded and superintended until
these Penitentiaries could be built. Send an army abroad
—send a school abroad—but do not send a Penitentiaay
to the antipodes, as that requires the greatest possible
vigilance. With regard to the Penitentiary system, Mr.
Bruce, the Governor of the Glsagow Penitentiary, had
said that during four years the mortality in the Penitentiary
had been less than the average mortality in the towns. He
would detain the House no longer by pressing his resolution,
but he was glad to hear that the subject had attracted the
attention of the Government, snd he hoped they would
follow up the curse they had begun, and that the sugges-
tion of the Committee of the House of Commons would
be adopted.
The previous question was then agreed to without a
division, and the House adjourned at Tea o'Clock.

CHURCH OF ENGLAND ASSURANCE AND
TRUST INsTlTuTiox.—lt must greatly gratify the friends of
the Church to find that such has been the distinguished suc-
cess of this very valuable Institution, that the Shares are to be
allotted on Monday, the Ist of June next, after which, the
business will commence in all its branches. There is little
doubt that this Institution, while it will be the most benevo-
lent of the insurance offices, will also be the most profitable to
its shareholders.
MR. BURKE'S PEERAGE AND BARONETAGE
FOR 1840.—0 f all the Peerages this new edition of Mr.
Burke's will doubtless be considered the best, as it is decidedly
the most comprehensive and complete. It conta ns all the new
creations, and being corrected throughout from the personal
connexions
andns of
fntthe-
ecommunications of the nobility, the authenticity of its details
may be relied on ; while the vast
quantity
yof
cariousco
resting information respecting the collateral
Peers and Baronets, which its voluminous pages contain, give
it an interest of an historical and biographical character, which
imparts a great charm to the otherwise dry genealogical par.
titulars. In this point of view, Mr. Burke's volume is emi-
nently distinguished from all works of a similar kind—his
researches in furtherance of his " History of the Lanced
of
Gentry " having opened new sources of information to 11.
of which he has amply availed himself in this new edition
the Peerage and Baronetage.
There will be no brevet on the occasion of her
Majesty's birth. day, as some of our military friends appear to
have expected.— United Service Gazette.