The Sun.
London, England, 1847-07-17 00:00:00

his opinions on the subject remained unchanged. to move
that the clause should be re-inserted in the Bill. With
respect to the clause providing for the admission of the
rate payers to the meetings of the board of guardians,
which was expunged by the Lords, it was the intention
of the Government to move that the amendment should
be agreed to.
After a few words from Mr.Wakley, Mr. Christopher,
Mr. Borthwiek, and Mr. liindley,
Sir G. GREY suggested the propriety of postponing
any discussion on the subject till Monday next, when the
Lords' amendments would be considered.

The subject then dropped.
BISHOPRIC OF MANCHESTER BILL.
The order of the day for the adjourned debate on this
Bill was then read.

Mr. HUME was surprised to hear that no answer
had been made to the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet
the Member for Dorchester. He should most certainly
do all in his power to oppose the Bill; it was a most
scandalous breach of the compact already made. With
respect to the division which took place upon the mea
sure last night, he could s,e that there were in favour
of the Bill 90 l'orie, 30 members of the Government,
and only 28 Liberals. He thought that the Noble Leo d
was only allowing himself to be made a cat's paw by the
Church to get another stick, which they would use here-
after to break his own neck with ; for it was his (Mr.
Hume's) decided opinion that every new Bishop he add d
to the ranks of the Church would be a stick t.i break his
own head with eventually. He should move as an
amendment on the motion, that the Spe .ker do leave
the Chair—that he should leave it on Monday next.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH would do all that lay in his
power to oppose the Bill by every fair means in his
power. He disapproved of the purpose of the Bill, for
he thought that the exist'ng Bishops were well able to
perform the duties &lotted to them. He should, however.
oppose anything like a factious opposition to the Bill.
Mr. coLLETT would support the motion of the Hon.
Member for Montrose.

Mr. V. SMI l'H thought that if the House was not
pledged, as was stated by the Noble Lord last night, by
any compact that had been entered into, then it was per-
fectly unnecessary to keep those words in 'he preamble,
and in the same clause which had reference to the crea-
tion of three new bishoprics, if the Government would
consent to expunge those words, he would have no fur-
ther objection to go into Committee en the Bill. He
would. therefore, wish to know from the Noble Lord
whether he would consent to the proposed alteration?
Sir J GRAHAM said, that if the alteration proposed
by the Hon. Member were acceded to, he would still have
an objection to the preamble of the Bill. He should still
move to omit the words, " regard being had to the cir-
cumstance that her Majesty did not contemplate the
issue of her writ to the new bishops to sit and vote as
Peers of Parliament, except as vacancies should from
time to time occur among the bishops of England and
Wales, now so sitting and voting."
Lord J. RUSSELL denied that this Bill was any
viclation of the compact entered into by the Government
in the year 1836. The Hon. Member for Montrose had
quoted the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Dor-
chester (Sir J. Graham) as an authority in his favour;
but he omitted to state that that Right Hon. Baronet
was in favour of going into Committee on the Bill, and
would not offer any onposition to the creation of a new
bishop fcr Manchester. With respect to the question of
the Hon. Member for Northamptonshire, the Govern
went had come to the conclusion that instead of one
bishop four bishops ought to be created, and her
Majesty had been advised to appoint a commission to
inquire into and report upon the necessities of
the various parts of the country most requiring the
appointment of a bishop. He thought that it would
be placing the Church in a very unfair position
if her Majesty alone were to be interdicted from in•
creasing the power necessary for its own government.
It was a principle invariably recognised to increase the
power of the head or governing department, whether ec-
clesiastical, civil, or political, as the sphere of its opera-
tions was enlarged. Considering the importance of the
words relating to the four new bishoprics in the preamble.
he should depart from the original 4norle adopted with
respect to Bills in Committee, and should move, instead of
the preamble being postponed, that it be taken into con-
si
bishops seats
dt• rai on a
at
had come to the conclusion that it was not advisable to
in once.
the With respect reesfpeet
Lords, the Government
to giving the new
give them seats in the House, as they considered that
tne Church was already sufficiently represented in ;hat
branch of the Legislature, but the new bishop would be
entitled to take his seat in the House upon any vocancy
occurring in the number of bishops. He had no objec.
don to expunge the words having reference to the four
new bishops from the second clause, but he would not
consent to any alteration in the preamble of the Bill.
Mr. TRELAWNY took an objection to the Bill, on
the ground of its favouring one sect more than another.
and the Bill did not state of what religion these bishops
were to be ; they might
belong to the Catholics, Wes
leyan, or any other body. He thought that for the best
interests of religion
it would be better to leave th 4
Church of England like other bodies, to be supported
upon the voluntary system ; the effect of endowments
was only to make a number of useless clergymen and
apathetic congregations. He thought that the better
plan would be to postpone this Bill until the next ses
sion, when more time would be given for such a full
vindication of the measure as its importance suggested.
Mr. ENTWISLE thought that so long as the
Church was bound to the State by the thong of the
constitution, it ought to receive some degree of atten•
don from the House. With respect to this Bill, he
thought it would be much better permanently to ex-
elude the new bishops, than to deprive the ancient sees,
as it was proposed by this Bill, of that temporal dig
nity which for centuries attached to them. It was his
intention to vote for the retention of the second clause,
and it that clause were agreed to, he would move to
expunge from it all words ving reference to the rota-
tion in which the Bishops should occupy seats in the
house of Lords.
Mr. ROEBUCK thought that there was already a
very extensive suspicion abroad with respect to the con-
duct and influence of the bishops, and he thought it
very unwise to make any further addition to the nuns
ber of these irresponsible Legislators. The bishops
were not like the hereditary nobles of the House of
Lords; they were in all cases sent up to that place in
consequence of some peculiar family connexions, neither
were they persons representing the public opinion of the
country, and it was his opinion that they were of very
little service in the emu(' of legislation. He wished to
know whether the minds of the people of England wee
to be better employed in making these four bishops"
in devising some proper means of payment for it.e
working clergy. This measure was the worst that could
possibly be devised for the Church of England, as it was
one likely to bring it into that disrepute which they were
so anxious to avoid. lie further
would not trespass any
upon the time of the House, but be would conclude by
s rongly urging upon the Government to refrawe and
remodel this Bill. .

•
Mr. BROTHERTON deprecated any factious pro-
„hat
seeding .itti respect to this Bill.
pressing its opinion On the future stages of t
Ile thought that.
ex-
there would be ample opportunities for thehlel
i necessity
Mr. B. ESCOTT thought that there was M,
n,
for the proposed measure, and he had hoar"
t induce him
argu-
ments in favour of the measure sufficient to
to give his support to it.
the House
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw,
divided, when there appeared— 63
For going. in:o C0mmittee............ _ _
Against it ................................
_1%5
Majority for going into Committee
The Hou,a then went into Committae' an do report
Bill.
Mr. COLLETT moved that the Chaim
Hume,
progress, and obtain leave to sit again.
After a few words from Air.
M. Philips, Mr. Escott, and Mr. Roebuck,
hat
the course
Mr. BRO MERTON rose and deprecat h
House
d that t 0 .
of the lion. Member, on the groan 11 upon repeated
having sanctioned the principle of the SI
adopt would 'be
divisions, the more legitimate course to adopt
as
possible in
to endeavour to amend the Bill as Inta-'
Committee. Mr. Osborne, Mr.
Mr. W ALLEY thought that in taking ad van-
House would be acting perfectly
rigidietf eat the Bill, and
cage of all the rules of the House to if is did not adopt
it would incur a great responsibility
goose
permitted
all the means which the forms of th,,
to defeat the measure. the minority of the
handy, it
Lord J. RUSSELL thought in their
to have the exercise of this p
"oweerasure to which there
would be impossible to pass any .
woritY the minority. were
was any opposition, and the ni
! - in
and neither the Re-
power of dictating to the majority, would have the
tom Act, nor the Act for the
rjaPw of the land.
eifal of the corn-laws,
Mr.Aan. Member to with-
could have by this time beenthtehant
Mr. AGLIONBY requested the
draw his motion.
and
withdraw,
W. Molesworth,
Rserebuck, Lord Clements,
Hume, at, withdraw, but no division
Strangers were ordered
i man withdrew his amend-
took After
samfietwh , wordsmr. from Mnr.
ment, xi- said he had come to the
Sir JAMES GB ATIA— existed for an increase in
conviction that no
necessityand that it would be much more
place, as the Hon. Gent e
the number of bi,hops!
the
number of parochial clergy in
advisable to increase
p A the creation of any bishops who
should not have
t in the House of Lords. He would
coa
n accordance with these views, the
however, opposed to
preamble the words which recited that
ronpelourdtic on
byo ntiohve increase in the population. He was,
ing,
seaomis,ion from the l
portion of the bishoprics.
f the new.
to the creation o .
d he considered the preamble to be
Mr. FUME said .
posit() to the conditions en-
tered as being opposite report of the commissioners which referred
entirely illegal,
Majesty's Government, and therefore
be left °ut*
from Mr. Law, Mr. Dundas, Mr.
'marks
After some rt
Lord J. Russell,
S. Wortley, and Lor_RBER
ttehreedwhinotloe boyn
T proceeded to define the
Mr. SIDNEY b
nof each Hon. Gentleman., and after
' particular wishes
how it was possible to go on with
fitting these, he asked
t. eamble, when it had thus been
the discussion of the pr .
hundred Ple •
ces He should therefore
divided into some
postpone the preamble altogether.
propose that they
said that they had now arrived at ti ,
Sir G. GIiZEY ble—
ghhetrto
portion of the prem I
say
that no portion of the preamble
Mc. HUME--'str,
has been read. lam toorder, and I assert that the fact

the Chairman, said that he had read
and paragraph by. paragraph, to the
is so.
senyern.cGe
bilyEs
House, and the House had offered no interruption.
Mr:BUNCOMBE and Lord CLEMENTS recommended
the Chairman of Committees to leave the chair, as
his duty Ee
sentence, eEn' c e ,
must be a very onerous and diagreeable one.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he would be prepared to
defend the preamble, if it were gone into, but despite the
Hon. Member for Finsbury he was prepared to go on
and if the opponents of the Bill thought fit to divide on
:
h 1 wl.ole measure they might do so.—(Hear.)
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment ............ 33
A.gainett. . : ............................... 132
livalty flimmt ................ .........99