The Sun.
London, England, 1847-05-19 00:00:00

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Say first or second'term of limited service, or of such term of
prolonged service, any soldier being in any of her Majesty's
colonies, shall claim his discharge, and shall signify to
the Governor of such colony, through the commanding officer
of the regiment in which he may be serving, his desire to re-
main in such a colony, it shall be lawful for such. Governor, if he
shall think fit, with the consent of such commanding officer, to
permit such soldier to remain ;herein ; and, thereupon, such
soldier shall be finally discharged, and shall not be entitled to
claim to be conveyed to England at the public charge at any
future period.
Earl GREY said that he could not assent to the amendment.
The number of men discharged in the Indian army was very
small, and so great was the di=position of the soldiers, who
might be discharged there, to remain in the country, that very
few of them would avail themselves of the privilege of going
home at the expiration of their term of service. The prin-
ciple, therefore, of keeping soldiers in the army longer than
was provided by their term of service, was both inexpedient
and unnecessary. Besides the object which this clause con-
templated was secured by other provisions in the Bill.
After a few words from Earl Grey, the Earl of Ellenbo-
rough, and Lord. Combermere.
Lord STANLEY thought this was a question of very great
importance, and he appealed to the Noble and Gallant Duke,
whether the soldier should not be discharged in England atter
having served his term of service in India. He believed that
the disbanding of a number of soldiers in India after their ser-
vice would, in some. eircumstances, be attended with the
greatest danger. From the moment these soldiers were dis-
discharged, they were left uncontrolled by any military lawe
the
, at
the same time provided with subsistence. What must b
effect of discharging those s 'idlers and leaving them to wander
through the country without any military discipline whatever.
Earl GREY said he would call the attention of the House to
the facts of the case. By the fourth clause of the Bill it would
be seen that some of the objections that had been advanced
against the measure had been met, and they would find that
the soldiers were to be sent home by the first convenient oppor-
tunity that might occur, of which they were to be judges; for
they could not deprive them of the right to exercise their
judgment, which must regulate the question.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said that he agreed with the
Noble Earl that it would be extremely inconvenient to allow
a number of soldiers to he without control in India. There
should he some control over them, at the same time that ar-
rangements should be made to provide the soldiers with the
means of returning home.—( Hear.)
The araernrment was then withdrawn, and the remaining
clauses of the Bill were agreed to.

The House then resumed.
POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.

On the motion for the order of the day for the third reading
of this Bill,

Lord MONTEAGLE, in moving the amendment of which
he had given notice (which was the same that the Noble Lord
had proposed on the second reading of the Bill), said there were
great inconveniences connected with the working of the Bill.
He bad heard of a case of great hardship with respect to a cler-
gyman of the Established Church. if the present Bill was
agreed to, it would be productive of very much of what was
objectionable with respect to the endowment of the Roman
Catholic clergy, and retained all that was objectionable in the
voluntary principle. They would be not only endowing the Ro-
man Catholic clergy, which he wished their Lordships had the
energy to do, and which they must eventually do, but
they would be doing that at the present time by the sacrifice
of the Protestant interest. This Bill was not only objection-
able on this point but on other points also. It would in its
operation be dangerous to the elective franchise of Ireland.
There was no constitutional principle better understood in Par-
liament than that the receipt of parochial relief dislianchied
the voter.—( Hear.) He need refer only to one authority on
the subject. In the statute book there was an Act of Parlia-
ment which declared that the receipt of parochial assistance did
disfran4hise the voter, and that he could not register. In looking
at England they must be practically acquainted with the work-
ing of the law. It was said that they would, by opposing the
present Bin, be infringing the privi'entes of the other House.
Bat the subject was too important to be affected by such a con-
sideration, and called for the notice of their Lordships. He
gave notice that he would ask these questions of her Majesty's
Government, which he proposed to do. and it was no matter
whether he asked those questions on the second or thir.f reading.
of the Bill. The present was a question which certainly was
one that ought to be considered as very peculi4r. They must I
look at the Bill with reference to its administ.ation. Under
the system, that the present measure would introduce, they
would find it moat difficult to afford relief without very serious
ineonveniencies.

The Earl of WICKLOW said that his Noble Friend had
stated to them a circumstance which had come to his know-
ledge, and of which he also had taken cognizance, but he
could not conceive how any one landed proprietor could
withhold double the amount of the rate levied for the three
months under the existing law. He was informed from
very good authority that the deduction of the whole year's rate,
out of the six months charge, had taken place, and he certainly
thought that some remedy should be found fur a system which
admitted of so much abuse. If it were not too late, and in his
opinion it was never too late to do an act of justice; he called
upon her Majesty's Government to take such measures as would
prevent the repetition of these acts of injustice.
The Earl of LUCAN (who was very indistinctively heard)
said he could- mention severs' cases in the county of l‘layo in
which this abuse existed. The law had nothing to do with the
amount of these. A rate was struck, and was deducted in due
course from the rent charge. He did not mean to say that if
a rate was struck on the 2d of May it could be deducted from
the rent charge of the Ist of May, it would be charged upon
the next rent charge in the whole sum whenever that .rnisht be.
The Earl of CL_A'NCARTY said that under the Tessporary.
Relief Act, food only was given out of the workhouse, but under
the Permanent Act, clothes and money were given. The Tem-
porary Act was alre idy sufficiently successful, and he, there-
fore, thought that the Noble Earl was a little too sanguine as
to the effect of the Permanent Act. This measure ought not
to he applied to Ireland at all, it was better calculated for
English towns. He was extremely surprised to see sent up
to that House the other day a Bill called the Poor Removal
Act, by the provision of which Ireland was compelled to support
not only ber own poor— but the casual poor of England.
and Scotland who went over there, whilst the Irish poor who
came to Emiland and Scotland were entitled to claim their
being sent bark. Upon such a state of things it was scarcely
possible to Ind: with patience, and he hoped that when the
measure came under discussion this irregularity would be re-
medied. t 1 hoped also that the clauses of this present mea-
sure would, before they were passed into a law, be remodelled
so as better to meet the wants of the country to which they
were to be applied.
Lord BEA UIIONT said that the clergy had one cause of
complaint ; they were empowered to levy rates according to
their incomes, and therefore if the rate was 20s. they took it, but
if it were 255. they lost 53. This was a matter which ought
to be remedied by the Government.
Earl GREY said that with regard to the observation of
the Noble Lord (the Earl of Clancarty) he was not then pre-
pared to enter upon the matter fully. With regard to the
observations of the Noble Lord who had last spoken, the evil
he complained of could only be remedied by the Church Tem-
poralities Act, which might at some future time be brought
under their notice.

The Marquis of HERTFORD wished to make a few observa-
tions upon this measure before it received the assent of their
Lordships. It was true that for the last 32 years the landlords
of Ireland had been drawing their incomes free of all taxation,
and this measure was the only one which could have been de-
vised to remedy that. It would be the commencement of a
new system, under which he hoped that the country would
emerge from the trouble and difficulty under which she had
been so long labouring. This measure had been long required
by that country, to effect an equal distribution of the expense
of maintaining the poor, and also create a new description of
labourers who, under its operation, would no longer be sub-
jected to the misery with which they had fur many years past
been too constantly affl.eted. He felt that this Bill was likely
to effect the social revolution which was so absolutely essential
to the welfare of Ireland, and therefore he should give it his
cordial supports
Fl f Z WILLIAM said that in his opinion the measure
would be attended with not only un,ativfactory but disastrous
results, and in that opinion all those who were,.like him, con-
Wetted with file two countries were ready to concur. A great
responsibility existed with regard to this measure, but he did
not think, with many others, that that responsiblity rested upon
the Ministry. He felt too deep an interest in their successful
government to admit that the responsibility rested entirely
with them. It rested upon others, who, if they had not been
first in the introduction of this measure, had at least, in igno-
rance of its real effects, carried it into operation. It was the
duty of every one to assist thos.• who were in distress, if they
had it in their power, but he thought that some discrimination
was necessary as to the nature of the relief to be given
and frcm what source was it to come? They would find in
the Act of Elizabeth the evident intention that the

land alone was not to bear the burden of the maintenance.

Such a provision could not stand fir twelve months—( Hear,
hear)—and, he would be bound to say, that if Parliament
were to dissolve in July or August, and meet again in Septem-
ber or October, that before the end of six months they would
be under the discreditable necessity of acknowledging that their
legislation had been wrong.
After a 'ew words in explanation from the Marquis of
HERTFORD,
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said that he thought that
the way only by which the preamble of the Bill was affirmed,
both in that and in the other House of Parliament, contra-
dicted the assertion of the Noble Lord, that all who were con-
nected with the two countries joined with him, in his opinion,
as to the inefficacy of this measure. They had heard
much of the dangers of this measure, and the
ends which were to result from the adoption of
the principle of out-door relief. He begged to remind
the Noble Earl who had last spoken, that in the west
of Ireland, in the counties of Galway and Mayo, there was
hardly such a thing as a poor-house at all. He believed that
for same years to come the maintenance of the poor would be a
great incumbrance upon the land of Ireland, but that was an
unavoidable evil. He for one took upon himself a share of the
responsibility of the measure, and he entertained a fervent hope
that it would prove successful.
Lord MO UN TCA S fl EL was just as convinced that it would
not prove successful, as the Noble Marquis opposite was that it
would, and therefore he could not refrain at that late
hour of the night from entering his protest against the measure.
Ireland had no manufactures to depend upon like this country,
and he was afraid the law would press heavily upon the landed
proprietors. Be *hat however as it may, he was stronely ire-
pressed with a conviction that the land of Ireland would never
be able to sustain the poor of the country, either in times of
prosperity or in times of depression.
After a few words from Lord ABINGER. and Lord Mowr-
EAoLit, the latter of whom moved the insertion of a clause,
Earl
At,,GREY resisted the insertion of the clause.
some further conversation, the clause was negatived
without a division,
On Clause 10,
an amendment.
Earl GREY proposed a
The Earl of ELLENR
on the clause, and entered Into UGII
made a few observations
general merits of the Bill,
which he believed would he four2we holly inoperative, as there
was no machinery to carry it out.
Earl GREY deprecated the di,„,,s•
of the merits of the
at their Lorclsni s
Bill on each separate c'ause, and h, 1,017,1 i,
would not follow the Noble Earl in so unusual P
After a few words r.orr. Earl GREY,
The Earl of WICKLOW said that he retained the opinion
he had gpcpresed the other night on the subject before their
Lordship: If the objection now made were the y
that could be urged, they could insert a clause to enable Otrtliee
tenant to 4errencier in ti.e same way as if the lease had not
expired.
The Earl of CLANCAR T said he could not agree with
what was urged in favour of them. The same power was still
giveig,, of subdividing the land, and there was no improvement
effected by the present measure.
Lord TIEDESDALE said, that at present there was no
power to enable the proprietor to make arrangements with
respect to the matter with the occupier, unless they could
make some arrangement between the landlord and tenant on
this point, they could not expect that the measure could work,
and be would, therefore, take the clause of which he had given
r. lempdwer the landlord to make an agreement with
the towal
Earl, GREY said that he was not prepared to oppose the
clause,' but he thought that it would be likely to endanger the
Bill in another place •if the amendments of his Noble Friend
were agreed to.
Lord 31ONTEAGLE said that as he had already stated he
thought they should not be influenced su far by any interference
with the privileges of the other House, and he would certainly
Pressientk WM= bid clause.