The Sun.
London, England, 1841-05-01 00:00:00

opposite (Mr. Handley) should put the question to the Go- i Friend near him would present his propositions to the House
vernment no less than himself. Unless some declaration were at as early a day as possible, consistently with the convenience
made, the announcement would be received as it ought to be, of the House, and he should bring the question, of which he
namely, as an attempt to conciliate those who differed from the had given notice, on the day he had stated.—( Cheers. ) He
Government.—( Hear.) trusted that what he had said as to the general principle of the
Mr. HANDLEY could assure the Hon. Gentleman who measure, would rather have a good than a prejudicial effect,
had just spoken, that he did not represent the whole county and if advantage should be taken of what he had stated for the
of Lincoln, in his opinion on this subject. Whenever the purpose of attacking the proposition before the grounds on
question was fairly brought forward, he would be prepared to which it was supported could be brought forward, he could
perform his-duty to his constituents.—( Hear, hear.) only say that at the request of the Noble Lord, and for the
Mr. GOULBURN wished to put a question to the Right purpose of forwarding the public business, he had gone out
Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The of the usual course of proceeding.—(Loud cheers. )
Right Hon. Gentleman had stated that there was 1,800,0001. Sir R. PEEL said that if the Noble Lord anticipated
to be provided for. He further calculated the deficiency in the that the proposition which he was about to make on the part
next year to amount to the sam of two millions. He had told of the Government on the subject of the Corn-laws might be
the House how he intended to provide for the coming defici- prejudiced by the partial disclosure of those intentions which he
ency, but he (Mr. Goulburn) would be glad to be informed had just made, the Noble Lord had the remedy in his own
how he meant to provide for the deficiency in the last year, as hands. The Noble Lord might, as he was in duty bound,
the Exchequer Bills were so reduced that there was no fund have taken an earlier period of informing them what was
for that purpose? the measure both in principle and details which it was
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that the intention of the Government to propose on the sub-
he should issue Exchequer Bills for that purpose. ject of the Corn-laws.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Of
Mr. GLADSTONE wished to put a question with respect to what avail was it to state that it was thee intention to propose
the import duties on sugar. The Right Hon. Gentleman had a moderate fixed duty, when they affor ed no means of as-
advised the House that he intended to alter the duty on foreign certaming what the amount of that fixed duty was to he ?
sugar from 633. to 365., the additional duty of 5 per cent. re- (Loud cheers.) Did not the Noble Lord see that the an-
maining in each case ; and he had stated that he expected by nouncing the intention of the Government to propose a mode-
that alteration to realise a sum of at least 700,0001. Ile (Mr. rate fixed duty without stating the amount, and leaving
Gladstone) wished to know upon what datathat calculation was the country in a state of uncertainty on the subject
founded. He would put to the Honourable Gentleman for five weeks, was a proceeding that was both wan-
three questions on this subject. First, what did the Hon. toe and unnecessary ?—( Loud cheers.) If at the com-
Gentleman calculate would be the amount of sugar imported mencement of the Session the Noble Lord had intimated
from the British possessions in the East and West Indies and his intention of bringing the Corn-laws under the considera •
the Mauritius during the coming year ? and, secondly, what tion of the House, he might have been justified in not entering
did he calculate would be the consumption of the United into details on the subject, but the Noble Lord had stated his
Kingdom during the coming year ? His third question re- intention of moving for the Committee just before they entered
lated to the time when this object was to be discussed He on the consideration of the Budget.—(Cheers.) The duty to
sincerely hoped that there might be no unnecessary delay, as be levied on foreign corn was to be considered as port of the
nothing could be more distressing to those who held sugar in revenue of the country—( Cheering and counter cheering)
this country, as well as to those who purchased it, than the and the Chancellor of the Exchequer had taken credit for what
uncertainty which prevailed with reference to the intentions of he had calculated might be produced by the duty to be im-
her Majesty's Government. Therefore he hoped her Ma- posed ou the importation of foreign corn.—(Cheers.) The
jetty's Government would fix an early day to bring for- Noble Lord had declared that it was the intention of the Go-
ward their proposal for altering the duties on sugar. vernment to propose a moderate fixed duty, without stating
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he would what that mnderate fixed duty was to be. The Chancellor of the
look at his papers fur the purpose of seeing whether he could Exchequerhadgiven some indication ot what might he itsprobahle
answer the questions. amount. The explanations of the Noble Lord only tended toe
Mr. WARD said the subject of the Corn-laws was too large fuse the question. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said he anti-
and important to be discussed incidentally ; and it would be eipated that the Customs revenue would amount to 22,000,0001.;
impossible to enter into it without absorbing the whole time of last year, it had only amounted to 21,700,0001. ; and he anti-
the House. But he could not help expressing his sa- cipated a revenue of of 400.0001. from the duty on corn, but
tisfaetion at the announcement which had been made, and he 1,000,0001. of the revenue of 1840 had been derived from the

duty on corn. Now, was this proposed revenue to be derived
in addition to the former revenue, or not? He, therefore, left
the country in uncertainty as to whether the revenue he ex-
pected to derive from the moderate fixed duty was 400,0001.,
or 1,600,0001. In that article, which affected the food of the
whole country, was it to be supposed that attempts would not
be made to obtain the amount of that fixed duty ? What would
be the state of the country, while that state of uncertainty
continued? It would affect the value of every species of
property connected with the sale of corn. The price of
estates, the relative situation of landlord and tenant, all our
manufactures connected with the production of corn—all would
be left in a state of uncertainty in consequence of the unwar-
rantable delay of the Noble Lord.—(Loud cheers.) If the
Noble Lord did not bring forward this question at an earlier
period of his own good will, he did not despair that the ex-
pression of the general sense of the country—(Cheers)—he
did not despair that that House would not permit the Noble Lord
—(Cheers, which drowned the conclusion of the sentence. )
That House would not consent to be made the instrument of
agitation throughout the country—( Loud cheers)—as it would
be if, after the announcement of the decision of the
Government, the consideration of the measure were to be
delayed for such a length of time.—( Cheers.) They should
also consider the particular time at which the announcement
had been made b the Government (Cheers)--
immediately after the many signal defeats which
that Government had recently experienced—(Loud cheers)—
he could not believe that the country would acquiesce in a
o—s
i n( ouodf
ephoseteprosnoemelnttwasof
imthpeoscsoihnlseidteoratetoioknatof
the country without the deepest anxiety.—(Cheers.) It
t h
et he
finqauneesitailo np.
would be unwise and unworthy of any man who took a com-
prehensive view of our present condition to venture to give a
decided opinion as to our financial condition. So far as the pro-
isositions of the Government relating to the commerce or the
country went, be would take them into his serious
consideration. reserving to himself the liberty of deciding on
them, as hereafter be might see fit; but when he considered
the insufficient and imperfect data furnished by the Right Hon.
Gentleman in his apology for a Budget (Cheers arid
laughter)—when he considered the absence of all calculation
as to how the deficiency in the revenue was to be met—he
considered that it would be unworthy of himself to enter into
details on the subject. After a lapse of five years they found a de •
ficiency in their income, as compared with their expenditure,
of 7,575,000/. He saw the Chancellor of the Exchequer, fa-
miliar as he must be with the subject, was astonished at his
statement, but he would prove that such was the case. In
1838 the deficiency amounted to 1,422,0001. ; in 1839 to
430,0001. , in 1840 to 1,457,000/. ; in 1841 to 1,851,0001. ;
and in 1842 the estimated deficiency amounted to 2.421,000 e,
making an aggregase of 7,575,0001. Now who was responsible
for this?—(Loud cheers.) The Ministry entered office pro-
fessing their main objects to be retrenchment and economy.
He asked that the result of this policy should be tested by
the expenditure. He asked for the accounts of their ad-
ministration, and those accounts showed that a deficiency of
7i millions was the result of their financial policy for five jeers.
—(Loud cheers). This was not the result of a failing revenue ;
en the contrary, the revenue had maintained itself. In
1836 it had amounted to 46,270,0001; they had
reduced the taxation in 1841; and for 1842 they
estimated the revenue at 48,310,0001. according,
to the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer ; conse-
quently they had a surplus revenue of 2,410,000/. as compared
with 1836, and yet with this increased revenue the result was
a deficiency of seven milliceis and a half. The Hon. Member
for Kilkenny said they had voted for larger estimates.—
(Cheers.) No doubt they had, because they considered that
the position of the country absolutely required that the
expenditure should be increased. But was it they who
voted for that increase who were responsible, or those
who gavetheir unabated confidence to that Ministry by whose
policy the necessity for this increased expenditure had
been created ?—( Hear and cheers.) Would it not have
been perfectly competent for Mr. Fox to have supported the
increased estimates for 1796, and yet to have condemned the
line of policy by which the necessity for that increase had
been created ?—( Cheers.) It was perfectly consistent for him
say such are the exigencies of the country that the public
safety demands that our army should be augmented to an
equality with that of other countries. He perfectly agreed
that it was not right to leave Canada or the northern frontier
of India unprotected, but he had a right to say that this in-
crease was the general scope and result of their financial po-
licy, and a Government which, after a lapse of five years, ex-
hibi'ed as the result of their financial policy a deficiency of
seven and a half millions, was at least open to suspicion that
the economy and retrenchment which they had stated
on taking office to be the main object of their po-
licy had not been attained.—(Loud cheering.) But
supposed they had effected a saving to that extent, would they
not have taken credit to themselves for the results of their just
and iprudent policy ? —( Loud cheers )—and, when the reverse
happened to be the case, ought they not to be held responsible ?
—(Cheers.) He believed that consideration for public safety
demanded an increase of expenditure, but he looked to the
results, and when he saw that with an increasing revenue
there was a deficiency of seven and a half millions in five
years, he thought he was entitled to express a doubt whether
such an Administration was entitled to take credit for retrench-
ment and economy.—(Cheers.) Let them consider their pre-
sent position there was a deficiency of 2,400,0001. in the
revenue for the past year. On one point he agreed with the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, that it was a disgrace to be in-
creasing our debt during a state of profound peace, and
that our revenue ought to be raised so as to meet
our expenditure. Hear, hear, hear.) He proposed
to raise 1,700,0004 by some means or other
how, he had afforded them no means of ascertaining.
He had observed that the example of the alteration in our
commercial policy might be beneficial, but they were then only
o consider it in a financial point of view, and suppose it should
not produce the effect anticipated by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, suppose it should not fill the coffers of the State, sup-
pose it should not produce the anticipated amount of revenue ?
—(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman anticipated a revenue
of 50,000,000/., but the expenditure he anticipated amounted
to 50,731,0001., so that even if all his calculations should be
realized, there would be a deficiency of 731,0e01. But the
Right Hon. Gentleman said from the deficiency of 2,400,000/.
there were various deductions to be made. There was the
experee of the expediaon to China, and the increase in the
Navy debt ; but making a d. duction on account of those
two items, there would still be upon the Right Hon Gentle-
man's own showing, a deficiency for the present year of 140,0001.
When the revolution in Canada first broke out he made the
same statement. He said that in a country with inch com-
plicated relations as this, calculations should be made for such
contingencies.—(Hear, hear.) The Chinese war had shewn
that these were possible events. The war in Afghanistan,
and the military operations in Syria had shown that
his caution was well founded.--( Hear, hear.) He would not
hazard an opinion as to what might be the effect of this
financial measure, for he felt too deeply the magnitude of the
interests involved in it, and the 'oily of pronouncing an irrevo
table opinion upon them.—( Cheers, and counter cheers.)
When the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer said that he would not to-night discuss the policy of
those measures, there was a sort of a cheer or a titter—( Cheers
and laughter)--which implied that when such magnificent
projects were introduced the House had nothing to do but to
agree with them. But it was to be remembered that those
:cry propositions respecting the sugar duties were last year
drought forward by the Honourable Member for Wigan
Chat Hon. Gentleman last year moved that the -duty on se_
tip sugar should be reduced from 665. to 365. per cu•.
and the present proposition was to reduce it from 6-1.4.
here being a difference of only 2s. per cwt,—/
dioposition of the Hon. Member for W: ~,peers.) The
the large majority of 122 to 27, ..gan wag itjacted by
.nan the Chancellor of tve- __sad- the Right (Hein. Gentle-
Cheers.) He d;-1
... Li:idle:we was 111 that majority.—
not adopting- not IrtN• tO this its twe slightaiit reason for
quires the proposition this year, If circumstances re-
it. The Right ROM G'etitlernan the President of the
cioard of Trade well and tabderately opposed the motion, say-
ing that he agreed with all the fitancial repsons of
the mover, but that he feared it
.would area In-
luriously the interests of the sugar teloniesi ins encourage
he produce of slave-owning, Stifess—t Hear, hear.) He did
.tot say that there was eitythllig in that which should exclude
the Right Hen. Gentleman from re-considering the subject.—
, Hear, hear.) Nor would he go to the length (tia sehleh the
.tight Hon. and Learned Member for the TeeVer,Elardleta and
he Member for Dublin went) of saying that the allehtion
ought not to be made under any cieetinstanita; VisliNk it Would
give encouragement to the slave-holdittg States. But he
thought that after the sacrifices which England had made to
put down slavery, that the objection to the reduction on that
.round was worthy of grave consideration.-41lears hear. )
With respect to the Corn-'hews, lsie thtliiiht it was the
duty of the Right Hon. Gentitman to state explicitly
what were his intentions On that subject, as he had done on the
timber and sugar duties—and prevent the dreadful animosities,
to which the doubts that were left in the public mind mast
give rise.--e Hear, hear.) If the Right Hon. Gentleman re-
fused to explain his views to-night, it was his duty to take the
earliest opportunity of doing so.—.(Much cheering. )
Lord 3. RUSSELL did not blame the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman for declining to express an opinion on the propositions
.f his Right Hon. Friend. Nothing could be more reasonable
han that he should take tine to consider. Neither
.voulti he complain that the Right Hon. Gentleman had re-
erred to his usual book of consolation, Hansard's Parliamentary
reports.—(Laughter. ) But nothing that had been said by the
.tight Honourable Gentleman in any way affected the case of
thedar
oGn
eotv efirnn
dmfeanutl Ht
h et ahre, heexapr.e n) d
tDe
ride tohne t Rh
ei g hs
at
mHeo ngrounds
is the Hon. Member-for Kilkenny?—(Cheers. Not at all.
)
ft would be strange if he did. For the chief topic of blame
vith his party, with regard to the army and navy, and espe-
eially the navy, was that the estimates were not sufficient.—
Cheers.) He (Lord J. Russell) was ready to own that at
one time the naval stores were not sufficient. But when an
,ccasion came the ships were fitted out and manned and sent
ea sea, with rapidity—(Cheers)—and without ostentation
or bustle—(Cheers)—so as to call for the admit-l-
ien of foreign nations, although those things were not
loticed by the Right Hon. Gentleman or those around him.—
s Cheers.) With respect to the army. also, it was made a matter

hoped that the
.plan which was proposed would be broad, and
suited to the interests of the country. The Government
should be prepared to deal fairly with the manufacturing in-
terests of this country. Representing as he did a large manu-
facturing town, which had suffered the most painful privations
from the want of a free commercial intercourse with the
United States, he should be wanting in duty to those who sent
him to this House if he did not express the great satisfaction
with which he had heard that night great truths in high
places—(Cheers)—great principles simply laid down, which,
if fairly and boldly worked out by the Government, would
ensure to it a corresponding support. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman who had just addressed the House had admitted that
the financial affairs of this country had arrived at a crisis, and
some bold steps must be taken for remedying the evil. He
begged to remind the House, in conclusion, that the present
Government had paid the expenses of the wars in which this
country had been engaged as they arose.—(Hear, hear.)
Though the wars were not of great magnitude, it was a new
feature which ought not to be overlooked—(Hear, hear)—in
considering the subject before the House.
Lord F. EGERTON said that though this was not the
proper time for entering at length into the discussion, he could
not help expressing his unmitigated astonishment, not that
the subject of the Corn-laws should have been announced for
discussion by the Right Hon. Gentleman—(Hear, hear)—
though he should not have thought it possible that that subject
should be introduced by a Government, at the head of which
was a Noble Lord who had delivered some very strong opi-
nions on the subject—(Hear, hear)—but he chiefly rose to
express his astonishment that the discussion on that subject
should have been postponed for five mortal weeks.—( Hear,
hear.) He owned he should have thought, considering its
importance, that it was a subject upon which, in the present
condition and circumstances of the country, the Government
would have made up its mind as to what it would do.—( Hear. )
But it would be sodisgraceful to the Government that a subject
of such vital importance—a subject which involved every
transaction relating to landed property—that he could not sup-
pose that any Ministry holding the reins of office in this
country could trifle with such a question.—(Hear, hear.) He
did not intend in alluding to the subject to express a censure
of the Government, for he did not feel himself called upon on
that occasion to do so. He could not, however, but express
his belief that the Noble Lord, who might at any time come
down at five o'clock to propose any measure he should think
advisable, ought to have fixed upon an earlier day for intro-
ducing his intended alteration in the Corn-laws. He (Lord
Egerton) could not imagine why the Noble Lord had not done so.
Let the country be allowed to decioe without delay on that
great question, and let there be no delay in appealing to their
judgment.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Noble Lord seemed ex-
ceedingly angry and indignant—(" Hear, hear," from the Mi-
nisterial benches)—at something, but what that something
was he (Lord J. Russell) could not tell. It. was not tha
the Corn-laws were to be discussed—it was not that the question
was to be brought forward by the Government—it was not that
the question should be fairly and impartally considered ; on all
these topics the Noble Lord was not angry ; but he said there
was somethinoe in his imagination the Noble Lord had
a very powerful imagination—(Laughter)—which induced him
to feel angry at the course which the Government had taken.
As he (Lord John Russell) had already said, he could not pre-
tend to the imagination of the Noble Lord, and therefore he
could not tell what he had been driving at. With regard to
the lateness of the time at which he proposed to bring forward
his measure, the Noble Lord was right in saying that on cer-
tain days at five o'clock, he (Lord John Russell) might
bring forward any motion he might think expedient; but the
Noble Lord did not seem to have attended to the importance
of the questions which had already been before the House.
The great subjects connected with the Budget would still de-
mand a separate consideration, and it would not be convenient
to mix up with these questions others of an equally important
nature. a here was a very important subject which had already
occupied much of the attention of the House before Easter ; and
he should think it a most inconvenient course to bring forward
any other measuro before that had been decided. He could
not imagine that any Hon. Gentleman on the opposite side
meant to shrink from the course which the majority of all
parties had taken on the Poor-law Bill —( Hear, hear.) Such
a mode of proceeding was only imputed to them by their
friends and supporter: ; but he (Lord J. Rursell) had no 'ap-
prehension of tne kind, and he conceived the House would be
ready to proceed wth that question as it had hitherto done.
He would proceed with that measure before he undertook any-
thing of an important nature. That seemed to him a very
simple explanation of what had made the Noble Lord so angry,
and he was sorry his imagination had become so excited upon the
subject.—(Hear.)
Colonel SIBTHORP said that it was clear to him that the
Noble Lord opposite, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
had put their heads together for the purpose of seeing how they
should extricate themselves from themselves, and on that occasion
the Chancellor of the Exchequer must have said to the Noble
Lord—" Let us try the Cornlaws—we will then seem to feel
for the people, and anxious to take off their burdens." But
let him (Colonel Sibthorp) tell them that they seemed altoge-
ther to have forgotten that they were themselves the grievous
oppressors of the labouring class, by the persevering votes
which they had given in support of the new Poor-law. He
did not expect to see Ministers have the decency to resign,
but he hoped that the Sovereign would soon call upon them to
surrender the powers which they abused to the injury of the
country.}Lord ANDON said that he was at a loss equally with his
Hon. Friend the Member for Newark, to understand what
were the grounds on which the Chancellor of the Exchequer
expected hereafter an increase in the revenue. To hira it
appeared that the hopes of the Right Honourable Gentleman
were mere guess-work—mere conjecture; and he thought the
House was entitled to know on what data he proceeded when
he stated that a change in the system of duties would produce
a change in the revenue. It was also surely most important
that the Noble Lord should tell them distinctly what was the
measure with regard to the Corn-laws which he intended to
introduce. —( Opposition cheers.) 'I he reason he had already
assigned for his silence on the subject was, that it was not his
measure they were debating. But there would be no question
of importance next week to occupy their attention, as the Noble
Lord had himse,f postponed for another week the further con-
sideration of the New Poor-law. How, then, did the Noble
Lord intend to occupy the next week ?—( Hear, hear.) Let it
also be remembered that in the interval of suspense they woulo
have the whole country agitated for principles of free-
trade on the one side and the contrary principles on the other.
If Ministers had declared their real intentions they might du
much to allay public excitement ; or, at all events, they would
relieve all parties from the inconvenience of agitating on an
undefined question without any statement to guide them.
He would ask the Noble Lord what excuse he could give for
not telling them distinctly whether he intended a fluctuating
or a fixed duty, and what was to be its amount ? It' their in-
tentions remained unknown they would raise exaggeraten
hopes on the part of the manufacturing population, and exag-
gerated tears on the part of the agriculturists. He hoped
therefore, the Noble Lord would boldly tell the country wha.
was the precise course which he meant to pursue ; and he din
not think the House or the country should be left in suspense
upon the subject.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he could not see how hi:
Noble Friend had any right to reproach him with the course
he had taken. He believed that it would have been entirely
unusual on his part to have taken any other course, and, pro-
bably, as far as he knew, without any precedent. He, certainly.
ht
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remarks in answer to the reproaches of the Nhrr.
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telioenle,s chfythedimmecastiunrge waotuteldrotend
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ag
e
intended should be on to points ywhich it was no
have no hesitation • -.ought before the House, he ni
('
he meant to in saying that the generalprinciple on whirin
stated'''. proceed, was the same principle which he ha,
the .. that House and elsewhere some years n
ago—namely
principle of a moderate fired duty —( inisteal cheers.
He had already stated that to be his Own individual wish h,
that House andvlsewhere, arid in bringing forward a measure
founded apron that principle, he would introduce it as the mea-
sure of the Government in general—as the measure of tht
Cabihet, united upon that question ; and he
was quite sure
that his Noble Fiend (Lord Melbourne) would be regardless of the taunts which the Noble Lord, the Member for Lanca-
shire, had chosen to direct again
by
against him th at night.— ( Hear.
the
a nudl
de principles
thoughttha
he should th.
had
wstaastetdh.erefHoreedpidrepnaortedthto abideinkitnecessary,
the House would not think it right thatenter int,
the details.—(Loud cheers.) With regard to the
general
principles on which the Government was prepared to
act
trait stated before the Easter holidays the general course
of Phoe
hey which the Government was prepared to adopt with respeci
io trade. He believed that sound as were those general prin-
ciples, and unanswerable as were the theoretical arguments b-
which they were supported, even if those principles were still
more sound, or those arguments still more unanswerable or.
ordinary occasions, yet the present state of this nation was one
which more particularly required the application of those prin-
ciPles—(Loud cheers)—not only on account of the great
benefit to be derived from their prudenyt
pearpilpsl_icaLiounid.
If they
brabecause our present situation was one in whicl
alon mischiefs—(Loud cheering)—not to sa
to snake no change e be avoided by their judicious application.—(Cheers.)
were determined, he would not sac to adopt or to reject
they were gnin
this or that
and exclusion, proposition, but if they were determined
the commercial policy of the country—
ifcould not prove otherwise-"uld
determinedthey to stand by the principle of monopoly
terests of the cou than
be adopting a line of policy that
ntry fatal to the commercial it,.
„ ~..-(Leud -cheers.) His Bight Hon.