The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-17 00:00:00

the labouring poor of Ireland had no ch ,ice but to ac-
cent such wages as the farmers chose to give them, or to
apply to the boards of guardians and demand relief from
them. Now every one knew that that was not the way
in which the poor law would be administered in Ireland.
If the labourer was in a position to procure wages from
the farmer, he lost all claim to relief from the board of
guardians. He could Not come to them and say, "It
is true, I have been offered work, but I prefer idleness; it
is true that I can get a subsistence with
work, but I prefer a scanty subsistence with idleness."
With regard to what the Hon. Member for Rochdale
had said, namely, that this law should be guarded by
very string-nt provisions, he thought it was so when
they said that there should be no relief to the able-
bodied labourer, except in the workhouse when there
was room, and if there was not room in the workhouse,
an application should be made to the Puor-law Commis-
sioners, who should give an order for a limited time,
and during that time the able-bodied labourer should be
supported by food. He did say that they had taken
very strong precautions against those abuses, from
which they knew every poor-law was in some degree in-
separable. He entirely agreed with the Right Hon.
Gentleman who had last spoken that in the administra-
tion of this law it should be rigidly enforced, and that
those who acted fairly and honestly in the administra
tion of the law had a right to the fullest support on the
part of the Government. There were likewise ques-
tions as to the support of those persons who, in the ad-
ministration of this law, might resort to intimidation,
and who might become obnoxious to, and threatened by,
those who would wish a more lax and improvident
system. He entirely agreed that without that support
they could not expect a man to be firm in the
administration of the law, if his life and person
were not properly protected by the executive
Government.—(Hear, hear.) He could easily admit
that it would not be fair to say of a man that he had
deserted his duty by giving improvident relief, and thus
abu.ing the law, unless they gave him some security that
in doing that duty he would be supported. He did not
agree with the Right Hon. Gentleman, or the Noble
Lord, whose proposal formed a leading subject of dis-
cussion on the third reading of the Bill—that the clause
then proposed by him did not impose an additional
burden ou the country. He could not think that the
case of Ireland was exactly similar (as the Noble Lord
supposed it to be) to the case of England. The Noble
Lord admitted that any additional burden—any new
county rate which might be imposed on tenants would,
from the beginning or the year sew, to tiny pora.n
about to enter upon the occupation of a farm, be a sub-
ject of contract with the landlord, and that the tenant
would calculate what was to be the burden he would
have to pay and regulate his terms so that the burden
and the rent would not be disproportinate to the produce
of his farm. The Noble Lord said that the landlord
and the tenant would agree together upon the terms as
to what portion of the burden would fall upon the land-
lord and what portion would fall upon the tenant, and
he did not think it probable that the whole burden
would fall upon the landlord by the diminution of rent.
He (Lord J. Russell) could not see, considering what
was the state of society in Ireland, that such would
be the case. His opinion was that although
it was a great alleviation of these clauses
that they would not come into operation with regard to
such tenants till the year 1849, still his (Lord J. Rus-
sell's) opinion was that the operation of these clauses
would be in a reduction from the rent, which would be
enforced as against the landlord. In the great desire to
hold land—he would not say what might be the tastes
and habits of the people 50 years hence, but only what
had been the taste hitherto—they had a strong convic-
tion that in holding land, they held the means of living.
The tenant would most probably find himself obliged to
pay an additional rent, equal to one-half of the rate—that
would be an additional burden upon him, and it would
not be merely an injury, for it would act as an
iuducement to him to look more cautiously after the ad-
ministration of the law. When the Right Hon Gentle.
man called on the Government fairly to support those
who had the administration of the law, he thought that
the executive Government, on the other hand, might
fairly express a hope that Parliament would not make
the collection of the poor-rate more difficult, and that
they would not make the poor. law—always a matter of
difficulty—liable to greater ones in the administration of
it, and in the collection of the rate. He had so far de-
livered his opinion to the House, and he would not detain
them any further than to say, that after the debate they
had had in that House, after many gentlemen who had
resided in Ireland had had, an opportunity of giving an
opinion, that the Bill was to be considered as passed by
general consent, and that no further opposition would
be given to a measure so necessary to the welfare of
Ireland.

Mr. DISRAELI said that if he did not misapprehend
the Noble Lord, he understood him to say that the ar-
gument used by the Noble Lord might be good with re-
spect to Ireland, but not with regard to England.
Lord J. RUSSELL begged pardon. He said that it
was a very good argument as applied to England, but
not as applied to Ireland.
Mr. DISRAELI said that he had misapprehended
the Noble Lord, in company with all those who sat
round him. He was very glad that he had given the
Noble Lord the opportunity of correcting that misap-
prehension. He understood him to say now, that the
view of his Noble Friend the Member for Lynn would
he good as applied to England, but that with regard to
Ireland there was a difference which rendered it no •
thing. He thought that he would not for a moment
contend—no man would have sufficient confidence in
himself to contend, that there was not a great difference
between the states of England and Ireland ' - but the
Secretary of State had already confessed to the House
that he himself supported the Bill without any very
great confidence in its producing the effect which they
all desired. The Secretary of State voted for the Bill,
and yet his apprehension of the whole question was that
it was a great experiment ; and if it were a great expe-
riment, was it at all unreasonable in the Noble Lord the
Member for Lynn, reasoning from such facts as political
experience authorised, sh,mld propose a measure more
cartain in its effects. If the Noble Lord did argue upon'the
position of affairs in England, in making that proposition,
was it sufficient that t!;e Noble Lord the First Minister
should rise and say that there was a difference between
the state of Ireland and the state of England (which
no one disputed) and that therefore he must not refer to
the instance of England. It was the best instance
they had g.,t, and though imperfect, it was the only in-
stance to which they could refer under the circum-
stances. Her Majesty's Ministers themselves admitte d
that they were offering a remedial measure to the House,
in which they had not implicit confidence. It was,
therefore, clearly not only justifiable, but extremely ne-
cessary that, in discussing any public measure, they
should refer to any past example they could adduce for
their guidance. The measure of the Noble Lord had
been spoken of harshly in that House, and with some
degree of contumely by the Hon. Member for Kerry,
and certainly in terms of disrespect and dislike. The
Hon. Member had no doubt received from his consti-
tuents since the discussion on the first night some in-
structions upon the subject. The opposition to these
measures had been shown in a spirit of moderation and
modesty when they were first brought forward, but it
appeared that a very different tone of feeling now ex-
isted, as shown in the debate of that evening. His Noble
Friend had deprecated the legislative experiment of the
Government, and had brought forward a clause—a re-
solution of a much more certain nature which would
remove the burden from the smaller tenants, and at
the same time offered a stimulus to the
superior ones, which would make all classes com-
bine together to carry the law into operation.
The Government proposed that no man whose tenure
was under 41. per annum, should be rated for the main-
tenance of the poor. The Noble Lord had proposed that
the lowest tenure to be rated, should be any one under
51. The measure which was proposed by the Noble Lord
the Member for Lynn would have been beneficent in its
nature to the people of Ireland, arid was at least as much
entitled to a trial as the experimental legislation of her
Majesty's Government. Ile thought that nothing could
bring political economy into greater discredit than the
uncertainty of the present legislation, which was not of
a fixed character, instead of having a Government who
would not swerve from their course of the utility of
which they were convinced, and which they were deter-
mined to pursues—(Hear, hear.)
Sir G. GREY wished to say one word in explanation.
The Hun. Member had referred to some expression of
his, which he considered to imply a want of confidence
in the measure before the House. He did not intend to
express any doubt whatever as to its beneficial result to
the people of Ireland.
Mr. WILLIAM FITZMAURICE then rose, but
for some time was inaudible in the gallery.
He had endeavoured to give the Government every sup-
port in his power as far as the present measure was con-
cerned, still he thought it was not as perfect as it ought to
be. Now the amendment he would propose would be to
place in connexion with every union in Ireland, farms
of 100 acres each, in order to carry forward industrial
arrangement; also that the unions should be increased
to the extent of 200. The effect of this system would
be, that landlords would be obliged to employ the peo-
ple at remunerating wages; else they would seek em-
ployment on the union farms. The system, if agreed to.
he believed would be a self-supporting system.
A great deal had been said during the pro-
gress of this debate ab .ut the drainage of
lands in Ireland, but on that he cautioned the House as
to how they proceeded, as the attempts of this kind hi-
therto made had failed. Attacks had been made by some
Hon. Members in that House on his brother, as to the
treatment of those employed on his property in Ireland,
but in answer to that he would inform the House that
instructions had been given to his agents to attend to
every matter connected with his tenants, and the result
was, that not one person on the property had ap
plied for employment on the public.works.—( Hear.) This
brought him to the question of absenteeism. Now the
real cause of this was the want of security to life
and property in Ireland, and the indolence of the pea-
santry. His grandfather had sunk 200,0001. in the
linen trade, and failed, because of the bad habits of the
people. At the present moment his own brother's life
was threatened if he set his foot in Ireland. It was
such proceedings as these that occasioned absenteeism,
and caused the landed proprietors of that country to
live elsewhere. The Hon. Member here read extracts
from the criminal returns of the county of Tipperary, to
show the dreadful state of things which prevailed there.
That the House might be aware of what an aggravated
her onmeck,
then attached it to beam, kicked the tub away into assault
a wh
na su ,s
eh e
in mightae
stteol
wl
nt
,h em
and t
thnanty stoomo
ke ma enw
and left
at hr d woman shuesrp eonn d
tehde for
firer.
v ebroke
an,
placed her on a tub, fastened a rope round
? A shilling and two-
th ink was the sum taken away i
ltr matter this in-
pe nce and a ring ; and for this Pa
Andmi minutes, twe eh,
what
thedul
d cutst he herHdoouwsne
occurrence. Within
such atrocities were of every day
expecthutn boasurbarivrtoyphriaedtorbees
wn,cmolmduallytt:tiln.
sAconuanctroyuldwthheerye
a fay.' n2i2es of Nenagh, and close to his brother's pro-
Paq') s gNntleman—a magistrate requested Eople of