The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-27 00:00:00

(Mr. Pitt) had to consider a course of much less
pressing emergency than the present circum-
stances of Ireland, in the year 1795, there were no
measures of extremity which he did not adopt. But it
was with reference to the ordinary state of Ireland that
he was speaking, and the inquiry which he wished to
institute. He begged, therefore, shortly to refer their
Lordships to the Parliamentary History of Ireland.
From the year 1800 to the year 1804, was a time of
great difficulty, when the usual Acts in operation, as the
law of the land, was martial law, the suspension of the
Habeas Corpus Act, and such like. But in 1804, Sir
John Newport moved for a Committee of Inquiry into
the state of Ireland. The Committee was appointed,
and the result which they came to was, that the adoption
of a general system of relief for Ireland, by parish rating
or any such manner, would be injurious to the
county, and the people themselves, the subjects of it.
From the year 1804 up to 1815, the public affairs
abroad occupied so much of the time of these statesmen,
that they could not attend much to domestic affairs ;
and it was not till 1817 that the question of poor re-
lief was fully brought before the consideration of Par-
liament. In 1807, however, the case of Ireland was
such, from the prevalence of fever and distress, that an
inquiry was deemed necessary. After some discussion,
in 1809 a Select Committee was appointed, which,
after a full inquiry, reported that it would be exceed•
ingly difficult to introduce any poor-law into Ireland
that would not extend the evils and dangers of pau-
perism. In 1822 Ireland was again visited by a great
calamity in the failure of the crops. At that time a
relief committee, with which he was connected, raised
the magnificent sum of 300,000/. Here, again, a Select
Committee sat on the condition of Ireland, and reported
that. any system of permanent relief that would lead the
peasantry of that country to depend on others instead of
their own exertions, would be fraught with
great danger, and ought not to be sanctioned by
Parliament. Thus all the Committees which had sat on
the question of Ireland, had reported against a system
of out-door relief, and only went to the extent of recom-
mending a system of in-door relief. Such were the sen-
timents that prevailed in Parliament respecting relief to
the Irish poor; and he would beg to observe that the
law of Elizabeth, of which they had heard so much, did
not in its original form prescribe out-door relief. He
maintained, though it had often been asserted to the
country, that the law in its original form did not sanc-
tion anything beyond the granting of relief within the
workhouse. It was not till 1795 that the law was
altered so as to empower the magistrates to order out-door
relief in cases where they thought it necessary. Well,
under the operations of the out-door system, abuses had
become so numerous, and the population had become so
pauperised, that a Committeee was appointed to inquire
into the matter. That Committee sat in 1824, Lord
John Russell in the chair, and it reported strongly
against the system of out-door relief then in operation.
still nothing was done till Earl Grey's Administration
came into power. That Ministry had been instru-
mental in carrying two great measures, the Reform Act
and the Poor-law Amendment Act ; but by far, were
they entitled, to the greatest praise for carrying the lat-
ter measure in the face of great prejudice and opposi-
tion. No one could read the evidence of the Commis-
sion appointed to inquire into the operation of the old
law, and on whose report the new law was founded,
without being fully convinced of the vast abuses and
demoralisation arising from the outdoor system of relief.
The Noble Lord here read several extracts from the
Commissioners' Report in support of this view respect-
ing outdoor relief, and against the imposition of a
labour test as to the destitution of the applicants for
relief. Nothing could be more fallacious than labour
tests, or more impolitic than labour rates. Experience,
not only in this country but in Ireland,
completely showed this. But it might be
said, why not apply the same law to Ire-
land as to England ? In doing so it was incumbent
to consider the circumstances of the two countries. But
on this head he would remark that, however much the
circumstances of the two countries might differ, the law
did not much if any, providing they took the English
law in its proper meaning. The real meaning of the
English law was to give relief only in the workhouse,
and if they had departed from this, and now granted out-
door relief, he did not see how they should endeavour to
introduce the principle into operation in Ireland. He
had now brought them to the year 1834, and whilst the
principle of in-door relief, of hospital relief, and of
relief for the destitute was recognised by the English
poor-law, the principle of out-door relief was repu-
diated. But they did not stop there, for in 1836 a com-
mission was instituted, of which a most Rev. Prelate,
then in the House, was a Member, and what did they do?
They did not render all the previous experience
abortive, but they adopted the same principle. He had
moved the printing of that report, and would read an
extract from it, by which it appeared that the people
could alone be dependent upon the land and the rent for
food and employment, and if that ground of support
were cut from under them, they would ultimately cause
not one portion of the country, but the whole of Ireland
to be dependent not on England only, but on the Impe-
rial Legislature for support. Was not that the case
now ? Was not the whole country dependent now upon
the Legislature ? And it should be observed that this
did not occur when the country was in a state of famine,
but at all times ; and such infallibly would be the case.
Then there was further the caution contained in the re-
port, that the administration of out-door relief
would occasion the evil that the people would
not rely upon themselves, and what was the
result. There was one man with whom
he had been acquainted he had raised himself
above his native condition, by the exercise of diligence
and a forecasting prudence. This man had set himself
to oppose the principle of this relief even upon the public
works ; and what was the ennssetnesree9a,
who had been the benefactor of all around him, had
been shot. The only advantage obtained by his example
was, that he existed no longer. His Lordship t hen
cited the opinion of Mr. Nichols, who had been sent out
by the Commission of which his Right Rev. Friend was
a member. This gentleman had gone throughout the
whole of the country, but especially to the north, among
the industrious population, and the result of his obser-
vations was a strong recommendation to stay all out-
door relief. But Mr. Nicholls was not content with
merely British experience, for he went also to Holland
and to Belgium, and here again the result of his obser.
rations was still the same, and the whole of that gentle-
man's predictions bad been verified to the letter.—
(Hear, hear.) Then they came to the year 1837. In
that year Lord Melbourne's Government, who were
too cautious to do anything rashly, had come down with
a recommendation from the Crown to inquire into this
system of out-door relief, and Lord John Russell in the
speech with which he recommended the measure to the
attention of the House, had opposed the granting of any
out-docr relief, for he believed that the whole of the
burden would fall ultimately on the land. At a subse-
quent discussion of this same question, when the subj( ct
of emigration was incidentally Introduced, the proposi-
tion was met by a specific resolution, made by a gentle-
man who represented the county with which he was
connected, Mr. S. O'Brien, the effect of which was, that
the relief should be granted to the able-bodied poor.
But to the proposition, a Member of the Government,
and not a common Member, but one who was charged
with the interests of Ireland, one whose name could
never be mentioned in any society of British gentlemen
without an emotion of resi,ect—that was Lord Mor-
peth that Noble Lord had stated that the
granting of out-door relief would destroy the whole
character of the Irish people. The evil of the English
poor-law had been only felt at the latter end of the last
century, and the whole of these evils would be increased
tenfold if the system were to be applied to Ireland.
Lord Fitzgerald, who knew Ireland well, and his Noble
Friend opposite (Lord Brougham) who knew everything
---(A laugh)—had expressed the same opinion during
the same year ; and all the opinions which they had
then expressed had been fully confirmed by subsequent
experience. Again, in 1839, they had the report of the
Poor-law Commissioners, and they emphatically stated
their belief that the granting of out-door relief would
he utterly destructive of every principle of granting re-
lief to those by whom it was absolutely
needed.—(Hear, bear.) (His Lordship then proceeded
to read extracts from the report of the Commissioners.)
The guardians upon the receipt of the determination of
the commissioners made another appeal to them, and to
this they received also an unfavourable reply, and the
commissioners stated in their report that the result of
their refusal to interfere had produced great benefits
upon the condition of the people at large. He regretted
to be under the necessity of troubling the House at so
great a length, but he felt himself bound to make out
his case now that the Government had refused to grant
him his request. A Committee of their Lordships was
appointed last session to inquire into the subject of the
operation of out-door relief in Ireland. The witnesses
examined before that Committee were Mr. Lewis, Mr.
Senior, Mr. Twistleton, Mr. Gulston, and Mr. Chad-
wicks, all of whom were unanimous of opinion that the
introduction of any general system of out-door relief
would be destructive to the interests of the people of that
country, but more especially so to that class which
it was the duty of the Government to protect.
He asked their Lordships, therefore to peruse before
they adopted the principle of the Bill. He did not ask
any of their Lordships to pledge themselves either to
support or oppose the measure, all he wanted was their
Lordships to afford sufficient timesfor having evidence
on the subject laid before them. Ireland was not, how-
ever, the only country which would afford evidence of
the injurious nature of a system of out-door relief, The
situation of Scotland, according to the evidence of Sir
G. Sinclair, fully bore out his assertion, as to the in-
jurious tendency of out -door relief. Mr. Dempster,
also, deprecated the system, and believed that the con-
sequence of such a measure would be to impoverish the
rich, and not afford, at the same time; adequate relief
to the poor. The Noble Lord then went on to allude
to the prayer of the numerous petitions which had been
laid upon their Lordships' table, praying that an
efficient Poor-law should be introduced into Ireland, and
prevent thereby the enormous influx of Irish paupers into
this country. Now, he contended that by a system of
out-door relief in Ireland the number of Irish emigrants
would be considerably increased. He felt supported in
his opinion by the fact, that in the several counties of
the a eithern parts of England, where a system of out-
door relief was most liberally and recklessly carried out,
the wages were the lowest. Lie did not mean to say that
it was a fair logical deduction that because a system of
out-door relief existed in any place where wages were
low, that therefore the rate of wages was reduced by the system of out-door relief. Still he Inuit look to the facts
as they stood. Now, the reason why Irish labourers
came over to England was, because wages were higher
in this country than in Ireland. Ho had no doubt but
that wages would be reduced in Ireland if the principle
a rc_airn,r.aiyeadx. out, and the result would be a
warelargertw s
of paupers into this country.
most fallacious thins
most illogical, the most absurd, and the
mthairniilinwdhich had ever been imposed on
Irish
suppose that a system of
th© credulity of
out-door relief to the I • paupers would tend perma

statement, winch appeared to have been superfluous, now
proved to be anything but supe:fluous. What was the case now
when they were suffering, not from the pressure from without,
but also, the pressure from within. The measure was carried,
as it was expected to be carried, by but a small division.
What was that division ? Why, some 36 members were found
to vote against the adoption of that clause, of which 32 were
Irish Members, and so it was that four Members were found to
vote against some 180 or 190 Members, including English,
Scotch, and Welsh Members; and thus it was evident that if
the poor-law was bad for England, it was tenfold worse for
Ireland. If the merits of this Bill were what they were
represented to be, they were tenfold worse with respect to
Ireland. It was perfectly evident that a poor-law was abso-
lutely indispensable for Ireland, but he could not trust the
functionaries to whom this administration was to be intrusted.
He spoke with all respect to the characters of his fellow-
citizens in Ireland, but this he would say, that he could not
trust the execution to Irish agents. They must have a ma-
chinery to carry out the Act. They must have power. They
must have a force, whether civil or military, to carry out the
designs of the Government. But look at Castlebar. In
Castlebar they had 1,1001. to collect ; but what did they get ?
Why, under 450/., when the union was in a state of debt.
He perfectly saw the reason of all this, for he knew that Irish-
men had a decided distaste for the payment of direct taxes.—
(Laughter.) His Noble Friend opposite, like all other
Chancellors of the Exchequer, had a religious horror
to the imposition of such a tax as would come
immediately at the pockets of the people.—( Laughter.) He
had had a pamphlet put into his hands, which he believed,
and was assured, presented a right state of the case. By this
pamphlet it was stated that 600 workhouses were to be built,
but would they serve the wants of the country ? Certainly
not; for if these were to be satisfied, upwards of 3,000 work-
houses might to be built.—(Cheers.) Then what was the
case? Why it was evident that the workhouses could not pos-
sibly accommodate the number of the people who would apply
for relief, and what would be the consequence of this ? Why
that they would crowd to the houses for relief. Well, then the
moment that one applied for relief more than the House could
accommodate, the principle of out-door relief would immedi-
ately be adopted, and thus the evil would become inevitable.
He could bear testimony to the excellent and admirable and
generous character of the lower classes of the Irish peo•
pie, in which they might well set an example to their betters
and perhaps this had led to that great evil which had been
found to result in practice, and which was found in the effect of
Members of Parliaments placing their own tenants, and those
who had voted for their election, on the Public Works. Still
this character was evident, and in the large increase of emi-
grants into Liverpool and the other English ports, he was
happy to find that there was not the least tendency to disorder
or any disturbance. But yet there was one vice in the Irish
character, which was the source of all evil, and that was the
vice of improvidence; a vice tending to reduce the people in the
tone of their morality—that quality which had been engrafted
upon humanity, for the preservation of its dignity, and the se-
curity of its progress, The Noble Lord who had spoken last
had depended upon the Act of Elizabeth, but it should be re-
membered that that Act was totally inoperative, and it was not
till the 9th Geo. I. that the workhouse test was brought into play.
The Acts of Charles H. and of William 111. had partly pro-
vided for the temporary necessities of the case, but it was not
until the Act of George I. that this test came into effective
operation. Then came the Acts to which Mr. Pitt had so
unhappily lent himself, and which were calculated in every way
to reduce the character of the Irish people, and to demoralise
those who were already too prone to depend upon extraneous
support. We must confess that he was apprehensive that this
rdeasure would be calculated to do more mischief than benefit,
and he considered it too frightful an experiment for any one to
attempt, without greater assurances of success, than any which
the Ministry at present possessed. He must confess, then, that
he believed that the better plan, by far the better plan, would
be, to take this as a temporary measure rather than to make
a permanent infliction upon the resources of the country.
He found that if the present measure was passed, the promoters
of it would in a few years regret the course they had taken.
The Government would find it no easy matter in the six dis-
tinguished counties of Ireland to lead back the 300,0G0 persons
to habits of industry, who had been led lately to rely upon the
efforts of the Government rather than their own. It were ab-
surd to suppose that these 300,000 should be disposed of by
means of a system of out-door relief, proposed in the present
measure. In his opinion, it was most unwise and impolitic, at
the end of a Parliament, and in the present distressed and dis-
turbed state of the public mind, to bring forward a measure
such as the present. It was not to be wondered at, that the
people of England should cry out for an Irish poor-law, seeing
the thousands of Irish poor which had left their own
country to become chargeable to them. He did not think
that the landlords of Ireland were as a body chargeable for the
present distressed state of the country, and that unmerited
obloquy had been cast upon some of them. (At the con-
clusion of the Noble Lord's speech several of their Lordships
rose at the same time to address the House, and considerable
confusion prevailed in consequence. A Noble Lord at length
proposed that the Archbishop of Dublin should be heard. This
motion having been seconded, and put by the Lord Chancellor,
was unanimously agreed to.)
The Archbishop of DUBLIN then rose and said that
he felt himself called upon not to give a silent vote upon the
present occasion. He felt that this was a duty forced upon
him by his peculiar connexion with the subject then under
discussion. He was, as their Lordships were aware, one of
the commission appointed to inquire into the condition of the
Irish poor—not by his own desire or offer, but by the selection
and at the request of the then Government. The Government
of the day perhaps considered that the experience which
he had had in England as a governor of a parish union
might in some degree have qualified him for an inquiry of that
kind, but whatever qualifications they might have found in him
they certainly would not do more than justice if they believed
that he devoted himself to the inquiry most heartily. This he
would beg leave to say, that a comparison could hardly be
found less likely to agree in any erroneous views, or in any
kind of prejudice, than the Commission then selected by her
Majesty's Government. The Commission consisted of Pro-
testants and Roman Catholics, English and Irish, clergymen
and laymen, and Protestants of various denominations. There
were differences of opinion as to the propriety of establishing
such a law as was afterwards established, and several of them
were afraid of the experiment then tried, but he felt it
his duty to declare, that all were agreed—those who
approved of the poor-law as then existing, and as now exist-
ing!; all agreed that it was most essential that there should be
no out-door relief ; that, they said would be a ruinous measure,
and cause the confiscation of property. He shared in the
g
eneralvapprehensions entertained at at that time of the injurious
he a. .axon place
viz., that when the workhouses were full, a clamour would Its
raised for out-door relief; this had occurred to a most alarm-
ing extent during the present distressed state of the country.
He had endeavoured to the utmost of his abilities to provide em-
ployment for the people in his immediate neighbourhood in order
that they might be prevented from going into the workhouses,
and had by such a course of conduct prevented numbers from
going into the workhouse. He regretted to see the present
measure introduced ; and it was one of the most chimerical of
notions to suppose that a system of out-door relief could be
sustained by a well-directed system of labour. The people of
England were not, he was convinced, aware of the real nature
of the Irish people, when they thought such a measure would
be beneficial to Ireland, and profitable employment could not
really be found for the two millions of Irish paupers. No
power could ever be able to compel them to do a lair day's
work; and woe betide the unfortunate overseer who should
compel them to do a fair day's work ; and woe betide the un-
fortunate pauper who should do a fair day's work, if such
should be against the regulations of his fellow-la-
bourers. lie believed the effect of the measure would
be to throw ultimately the whole charge of
the Irish paupers upon the United Kingdom. The rates as
they were successively called for would be successively in ar-
rears , the whole country would become- desolate and- like
another Cholesbury. It would be far better for the Govern-
ment at once to confiscate the whole of the property of Ireland
and allow the landed proprietors a pension for the remainder of
their lives. It was physically impossible for the property of
Ireland to support its poor. The Irish people were most re-
markable for their improvidence, and their willingness to throw
themselves on the resources of others. An instance of this
had recently come to his Knowledge. In the neighbourhood of
the Cove of Cork there were a number of persons who had
till recently obtained their livelihood by fishing, and although
large quantities of fish werewere
contenttobe tatkn i v
e taken at tdis-
tancemise-
rable
leave their homes, and
pittance of soup provided for them by the hand of charity.
Some benevolent persons thought if they provided them with
tackle and provisions for the purpose of starting them on this
voyage, that they would afterwards he enabled to support them-
selves and their families; but it was found, however, a hopeless
undertaking, as when provisions were given to them for the
voyage, they landed and used them for the support of their
families. In fact they could not be trusted with a loaf of bread.
If they proceeded- in the way this Bill proposed that they
should proceed, the whole rental of Ireland before the
end of the year would be swallowed up. But this was
the worst time of all to bring forward such a
measure as this.—( Hear, hear.) Yet after all something
must be done. He, therefore, recommended inquiry, in order
that they might not take a leap in the dark. If the plan the
Government proposed rested on good grounds, he saw no
reason why they could object to it. And then he saw no
reason why they should not proceed to make their investiga-
tion, even whilst the measure was before the other House of
Parliament. If they gave the whole able-bodied a right to relief,
they could not atop even when the whole rental of Ireland had
been swallowed up ; agrarian outrages would arise, and when in-
surrection had totally changed the face of Ireland, they would
have to retrace their steps with deep regret and humiliation.
At any rate, they ought to make the proposed investigation in
order to show that they had good grounds for the course the
Government proposed to adopt.
The Earl of DEVON considered that no good would arise
from the adoption of the motion, because the blue books, of
which a condensation was sought by the Noble Lord, were in
the hands of Noble Lords, and they were therefore in a condi-
tion to judge for themselves. He had the misfortune to differ
with many of the landlords of Ireland, as to what was the
best course to be adopted for the benefit of the people
but he considered that the Irish people ought now to be placed
iu a similar position, with respect to obtaining' relief during
distress, as the people of England. And besides this mea-
sure must be looked upon as but one of the many measures
which the Government had prepared for the permanent benefit
of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had spoken of
out-door relief, as if the whole people were at once to become
recipients of out-door relief; and as if nothing was to be left
to the exertions of landlords. Pie was wholly incorrect in
supposing that all would become recipients of that relief.
Nevertheless, those who opposed the Bill had not proposed
any other and better plan for the purpose of improving the
social condition of Ireland. The landlords would be driven by
this measure to find employment for the people; and therefore
there was no doubt about the people obtaining remunerative
employment. It would be well, he thought, to extend the
workhouse accommodation in order to apply the test of con-
finement in the workhouse with relief or labour given out of
it. He fully believed that this was one of a series of measures
which, collectively, could not fail to produce considerable
benefit in Ireland, and it was for that reason he should
support the
Bill when it came up from the other
House. It might press heavily upon one class of the
landed proprietors of Ireland, but eventually it would lead to
their permanent good. Aa a body, he had no doubt the land-
lords of Ireland had done their duty, but he could not conceal
from himself that there were a few exceptions, and he trusted
this Bill would have the effect of refining them.-- Hear.)
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said his Noble Friend
who had just sat down had so fully stated his own views upon
the subject under discussion, that he did not feel it necessary
to trouble their Lordships at any great length. Still, there
were one or two points upon which he must be allowed to
touch, and in the first place, he must direct attention to what
had fallen from his Noble and Learned Friend opposite. Now,
his Noble and Learned Friend had told their Lordships that
Government were bringing this measure forward in a moment
of pressure and excitement.
Lord BROUGHAM—No; I said that the Members who
supported it voted for it under feelings of excitement.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE was glad the Noble and
Learned Lord had explained himself, because he could assure
the Noble and Learned Lord that this Bill had been brought
forward by her Majesty's Government after the most mature
deliberation.—( Hear.) But the Noble and Learned Lord
argued in favour of delay because the House of Commons ap-
peared to be almost unanimous in its favour. Certainly that
appeared to him to be a most extraordinary reason to urge in
favour of delay. Had the votes on either side been nicely
balanced, there might have been some ground upon which to
urge their Lordships to delay the Bill, but really it was too

nently to improve the condition of the people. When
everything had been reduced in Ireland by the operation
of this measure to a dreary waste of pauperism, what
would be the next thing ? Why, a distribution of the
whole.property, amidst all the terrors of an agrarian
outrage, the effects of which would be severely and bit-
terly felt by all the aristocracy and people of this country.
Unless they improved the country, so long would Ireland
continue one mass of pauperism, deranging the condition
of England. The next question with which he wished
to deal was the question of rating. In his opinion, the
two modes—electoral and union rating—were open to
great objections. Union rating especially, as persons
who had no right to support the poor would be called
upon to do so, even though they lived twenty or thirty
miles trom the parish of the person claiming relief. The
experiment they were about to make upon Ireland by
introducing the proposed poor-law was one of the most
monstrous and awful that had ever been even
suggested or ought to be introduced. It certainly was
one which ought to be investigated as he proposed, in
order that their Lordships might have materials for
thinking and judging on the matter during the Easter
recess. He did not object to the imposition of a pro-
perty-tax of 15 or 20 per cent. ; but what he objected
to was, the misapplication of the funds raised for the
relief of the poor, as it would be if the proposed low
were passed. General and agricultural education ought
to be promoted in Ireland, and, in his opinion, a greater
scheme of emigration ought to be carried out in Ireland
than the one the Government were inclined to favour.
After thanking their Lordships for the patience with
which they had heard him, he concluded by moving the
appointment of the Committee.
Earl GREY said he felt constrained to ask their Lordships
not to accede to the motion. In whatever light he viewed it,
it was equally objectionable. Indeed, he was at a loss to know
the Noble Lord's object in bringing it forward—whether it
was to give their Lordships information on the subject, or
whether it had in view to object to the out-door relief clause
in the Bill now in the course of deliberation in the other House,
and which had been acceded to ,• a great number of those in
favour of that clause being Irish Members. He was quite at a loss
then, after his Noble Friend's speeeh, to divine which of those
two objects he had in view. But if such a Committee were
appointed, it must sit several months before it could come to a
decision, and therefore the object which he stated he had is
view would not be obtained. No doubt the Bill would pass
the other House on the first day after the recess, and unless the
Committee of his Noble Friend was not allowed to impede its
progress, it could be immediately taken into consideration by
that House, and passed without delay, as it was urgently re-
quired. His Noble Friend stated that he wanted a digest of
all the reports of Commissioners and others who had
dealt with the subject. But no Committee could
accomplish this so well as the Noble Lord, who
had devoted so much attention to the subject, and
who had himself prepared a digest of all these reports. Such
a function could not be delegated by Parliament to a Select
Committee. It was certainly a most elaborate way of adding
another pamphlet to the many valuable ones which had been
published on the subject. In his (Earl Grey's) opinion no
such aid as that proposed was required. The materials had
been prepared, and every man could easily form his opinion
from them. He considered he had utterly failed to show the
necessity of such an inquiry. The other part of his argument
was equally objectionable—namely, his objection to out-door re-
lief to the indigent or ailing poor. Such a measure was demanded
greatly at the present moment, because the people stood more
than ever in need of such aid.— ( Hear.) He doubted whether
the measure was one on which the Government were unani-
mous Now, he could assure him that the Government were
quite unanimous as to the immediate necessity of such a mea-
sure as the one proposed. Throughout his whole speech he
appeared to him to have been fighting a chimera of his own
creation.--( Hear, hear.) The dispensation of out-door relief
to the able-bodied was to be placed in the bands of boards of
guardians, but it would only be given when the workhouses
were full, and when the Poor-law Commissioners had taken cog-
nizance of the matter, and decided that it should be given, He
(Earl Grey )admitted that evils had sprung up under the present
Irish Poor-law; but that was no argument in favour of its
abrogation and the enactment of a new one. The prosperity
of the country had increased since the time when a poor-law
was first enacted ; and when the poor were supported by a tax
levied upon property, the owners of property would see that the
funds so raised were properly expended. What was the great
cause of the misery in Ireland ? Every thinking man would
tell him that the reason was, that there was insecurity
of property in Ireland. And whence had that insecuriry
arisen. All authorities concurred in the opinion that
it was the result of the feeling which prevailed in
Ireland that the land must be clung to for support.
The Irish people felt that if they could not stick to the land
they must die like dogs upon a dunghill. No doubt there were
political causes which had helped to increase that insecurity;
but really and truly the immediate cause was that which he
had stated, and hence the want of improvement which was
manifest in Ireland, both amongst the people and in the land it-
self. This state of things he thought was a sufficient justifica-
tion for their Lordships refusing the Committee and pressing
the Bill which would shortly come up to their Lordships'
House. Who, let him ask, could refuse to give the poor relief
when they were really destitute ? The affluent landholders
ought to be the last to refuse it; but his Noble Friend
who had brought this motion forward did not object to giving
relief, but he complained of the system Government was going
to establish, of giving out-door relief, declaring that it was not
justified by the old law of Elizabeth. Now he begged to differ
with his Noble Friend or, that point.
Lord MON TEAGLE—The relief could not be given out of
doors without work.
Earl GREY said his Noble Friend's observations showed
the inconvenience of discussing this question before the Bill
came before them in the usual form. Government did not in-
tend to give outdoor relief without work, and his Noble Friend
would find that to be so when the Bill came before him. When
the workhouse was full, he could not see any reason
against granting out-door relief to the really neces-
sitous poor. Much of the misery which had recently
existed in Ireland was occasioned by the want of
a power to give such relief on the part of the parochial autho-
rities, who, when they found their workhouses overflowing to
an enormous extent, were compelled to restrict their out-door
relief; because they well knew that the money they might
expend in that way, would never be collected from the rate-
payers. What a contrast this state of thin_p_yreselltscpn
ctivea from the returns, that the poor-rate never exceeded
2s. 6d. in the pound, while in parts of England they were
13s. 3d. in the pound. He did not intend to say that out-
door relief to the able- bodied poor was justifiable upon all oc-
casions, but he crd maintain that it was advisable and just
when the workhouses became inconveniently full during a
time of pressure. In ordinary times there would always be
ample room for relief in the workhouse, but in extra-
ordinary times, when the workhouses were full, out-door
relief ought to be brought into operation.—(Hear, hear.)
Upon that ground he justified the Bill which was in
progress in the other House, and upon that ground
only. It was the principle which prevailed in this country
while it had worked well, and he could see no reason why it
could not be applied to Ireland with equal advantage. The
system was, therefore, precisely the same as that which pre-
vailed its England, and it afforded all the security that could be
given. But he knew that it was said that the population of
Ireland was so great, and the pauperism so extensive that no
Poor-law could overtake it. This was a most fallacious state-
ment. No doubt, in some districts, the number of labourers
was so large as to make it difficult to command beneficial and
profitable employment, but in looking at Ireland as a whole,
he believed there was no real deficiency in the field of labour.
The resources of the country were more than ample to em-
ploy all she people. The reason why Ireland had presented
such a spectacle of distress was on account of the misapplicaz
tion of her industrial power. If they looked at the large
extent of her uncleared lands, her undrained bogs, her neg-
lected fisheries, and mineral wealth, they would find the ample
truth of this statement. Such was the state of Ireland, and to
alter this, and to call into action the latent powers of Ireland,
he knew of no measure better calculated for the purpose than
the present measure. It would induce Irish propidetors to
improve their estates, and to find employment for the people,
instead of supporting them out of the parish rates. No doubt
the change must be gradual, yet the beneficial results he
had stated would be sure to come about. Let their Lordships
bear in mind that this was only one of several measures.
There were other measures in progress for drainage and im-
provement of lands, for the reclamation of wastes, and for the
development of the fisheries, which would co-operate with the
measure under consideration for the regeneration of Ireland
and the elevation of the people. Still, though he had these
hopes of the future, he must say that he looked with great
alarm at the present state of Ireland, and the difficulties they
would yet have to encounter ere a better state of
things was brought about. The Noble Lord had talked about
this poor-law extending pauperism in Ireland, and reducing the
wages and condition of the people. Now he would call the
attention of -the Noble Lord to the facts in the blue books on
the table of the House. If ha did so, he would find that the
habitual condition of Ireland was of the most wretched character,
the population without decent shelter or clothing with the
most meagre and inefficient supply of food. And yet the Noble
Lord asked them to abandon the present Bill, which he said
would still further degrade and pauperize Ireland ; though to a
similar measure in England had they been indebted
for much of her present industry, wealth, moral elevation,
and independence. The Noble Lord had also referred to the
former policy whichis (Earl Grey) had supported ; but in
reviewing that policy he bound nothing in the present measure
inconsistent with his support of the present Bill. Though, as
he before observed, he could not void looking with alarm on
the present state of Ireland, still, as no believed she contained
all the elements of wealth in abundance, if she were only true
to herself—and he thought the present measure would afford
much assistance—if she only exerted herself to overcome the
present difficulties, he saw no reason why she might not emerge
out of her present darkness, and advance herself to a position
of the greatest plenty, and the greatest happiness—that she
might do so was his most earnest prayer.—(Cheers.)
Lord BROUGHAM wished that some Noble Lord con-
nected with Ireland had got up in preference to himself in the
present stage of the debate, seeing the importance of the
measure under consideration to them. The question before
the House, he need not remind them, was one pos-
sessing very peculiar features, and presented itself
to them in an aspect of extraordinary charac-
ter. Still he did not wish at present to enter
into the subject of a Bill which was not before their Lord-
ships, nor indeed would it be convenient for him to do at
that advanced period of the night, or to go into a debate on
the general principles of a provision for the peer. But be
could not help remarking at the unhappy course which the
Government had been pursuing, and he hoped, though he did
not see much ground for success, that he might yet prevail in
diverting them from such a proceeding. From the beginning
of the session he had been endeavouring to show them the
ewtnohtadiech vlafo h failure
hopedilrued retoo impress
would
course they were pursuing. A great
calamity had overtaken the empire—a crisis had arisen
oprove
their but
mindsonly temporary,ths
t they
should aonticildhe
care-
fuhadth 10l
sye distinguishpermanent meas measures
teeas r
stno meetrHe
should t his
freelytemporary
give every
crisis
obwe
fnuh
teti ohowhue
when
waeegenams
pmt
ehi
raecelno,qtn
question
soee
st
eataidndo yvn estowex
dame
sr
etc
the
hsteeernt ohafel
tt
obed ere
dans
otteii vot
unon ltoei
toot
hi
nfci ent
goha
fen (
tlh e
e on
oe
(fine
te
rnyc e;
ole poy. licy.
thing should be done in the dark, or under
trhaweshilinfluence
of passions or feeling, but they should wait till the
calm after the storm, ere they devised measures of
a permanent character. Now there were several points in this
subject to which he would lcall their attention. In the first
place, if they passed a permanent law, they could not retrace
their steps ; whereas if they passed a temporary measure, a
measure that went but a little way, they could from time to
time bring experience to improve it, where improvement was
required. They could not do this with a permanent measure.
They would, in such, a case, be able neither to renal nor
retrace their steps. Once let them say, that Ireland shall
be fed without labour, and that outdoor relief should be
and tenantry
edinnaennvotirttya obolnfyl
the
ruined
uh
granted, and they would not be able to stop till they had
ruined the landlords, and
Bw,oitrhse,ctlashesefasrmw cienomenda
tbruyt., what was far
before—( Fine arr,
remedy
could be applied. This was one great reason why
they should not rashly legislate on the subject. Now
these two Noble Friends had differed, from him on the Act of
1838, to which he was opposed, and as he bad been justly re-
minded that he had been opposed to this Act, for this Act went
much further. His Noble Friend had stated, that that Bill
might WO to a repeal of the union; 83 his Noble Friend's

THE SUN, .LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 27, 1847

bad to call pon them to put it off because the majority of all
parties concurred in its principle. —( Hear, hear.) For him-
self, he had always called for a poor-law similar to the one now
proposed, and unless their Lordships wished to continue the
present state of things in Ireland, they, like the
other House of Parliament, would be unanimous in
passing this Bill. It was a monstrous exaggeration to
contend that there was always to be kept up an extensive
system of out-door relief. Nothing could be further from the
fact. Out-door relief would be the last resort, and it would
only be brought into operation during extraordinary visitations
like the present. It would seem that the objection of the
Noble Lords who opposed this Bill was, that it would not pre-
vent pauperism. Why, what nonsense that was. No Bill
could prevent pauperism ; but he would venture .to say,
that if it met with the co-operation of the people, it
would tend considerably to diminish the existing suf-
fering, and make provision for future periods of
scarcity. Of course, if the people of Ireland were so foolish
as to abstain from uniting to ensure the good working of this
Bill, it might be rendered a source of great evil, hut he had
too much confidence in his countrymen to believe that they
would be dilatory in availing themselves of this opportunity of
permanently bettering their condition. Under these circum-
stances he did hope that the Noble Lord would not press his
motion to a division.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM had heard the speech of the Noble
Lord (Lord Monteagle) with the greatest pleasure, and had it
been simply, as alleged by the Most Reverend Prelate, a pre-
lude to a motion for further inquiry, be would have thought it was
rather late to do so. But theispeech was not of this character,
but was rather a condensation of all the solemn opinions recorded
from time to time by those who had carefully studied .the
condition of Ireland. Some
,?tears ago they had taken steps to
alter the law as it existed in England, in order to do away with
the abuses which had arisen from the out-door system of relief.
Not long after the Government introduced a poor-law for Ire-
land, and at the time he thought it a strange proceeding to re-
trace their steps as far as England was concerned, while they
enacted an entirely opposite principle in Ireland. But the law
which had been passed was now, it would seem, but a prelude
to a more extended system, in which out-door relief was to be
a prominent feature. Oh, but it was said that no relief was to
be given out till the workhouses were full. Now, from his
knowledge of Ireland, he knew that this would be often the
case. In fact, they would be obliged extensively to give out-
door relief if the Bill were passed, and the numerous gua-ds
and restrictions with which they hedged the Bill proved this.
From all that he had seen and read of the proceedings on
this measure, he felt assured that the Government
and the other House of Parliament were proceeding too ex-
clusively on English feelings and conclusions without
thoroughly understanding the real condition of the country for
which they were legislating. When they found so many words in-
troduced for the purpose, it would seem as if they were nullifying
the measure. He thought it would have been better for them had
they taken the advice of these friends who were opposed to the
present measure. He differed from the Noble Lord (Earl
Grey) as to the 43d of Elizabeth having contributed in any
degree to the prosperity of England. In entertaining such an
opinion, the Noble Lord would seem to have set at defiance all
who hatil carefully considered the question, and especially that
much despised class of men the political economists. He
called on their Lordships to consider what would have been the
state of Ireland if the present measure had new been in opera-
tion ? Would Ireland have been better than now ? Would
fewer lives have been sacrificed, or would less destitution have
prevailed ? He believed that there would not, and therefore
it was that he thought such an extraordinary state of
things ought to have been met by a temporary, instead of a
permanent measure. He hoped their Lordships would re-
consider this subject before giving their final decision.
Lord BROUGHAM explained, that the pressure which he
referred to in his speech was the public opinion of England,
excited by the present extraordinary circumstances of Ireland.
Earl St. GERMANS said, as only one Member of the
Government had spoken in the course of the present debate, he
wished to say a few words. A great deal had been stated about
previous Committees and Cosamissions, but it should
be recollected that the total failure of the potato
crop required that they should direct the in-
dustry of the people to a new means of subsistence
altogether. It was clear that the people of Ireland must
henceforth give up the possession of their smsll plots of land,
and depend on wages for subsistence ; and therefore it was
that he supported the present measure to assist in effecting a
transition to a new state of things. He would not occupy their
time now in discussing a Bill by anticipation, but he rose to
state his opinion on the subject raised by the motion of the
Noble Lord, and to state that he believed the measure neces-
sary to meet the condition of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.)
The Archbishop of DUBLIN explained, that he supported
the motion of the Noble Lord (Lord Monteagle) though he
thought that an inquiry would be but fair before giving a final
decision.

Earl ROSSE tote to support the motion. He could not
agree with the last Noble Lord, that the old reports and com-
, missions, on the subject of the Irish Poor-law, should go for
nothing. It ought to be kept in mind that those reports had
been made in calm and dispassionate times—( Hear, hear)—
and not as now, when the public mind was excited and alarmed.
He was glad that her Majesty's Government had not consented
to this inquiry, but he looked upon the production and the
printing these documents as far more important than the con-
venience of their Lordships, for it would answer the purpose of
making the public acquainted with their nature. There was a
general feeling that the more property was taxed in Ireland the
more pauperism would increase. Let them only look at the
subscriptions which had been made for the poor of Ireland, and
they would have a sufficient proof that this principle would
hold. He was anxious that this should be known, for he be-
lieved that the effect of these measures would be to throw a
large quantity of the land in Ireland out of cultivation. But
there was a limit to the assistance which had thus been ren-
dered, and that limit would soon be reached. Now, they were
not prepared to try the experiment in Scotland which they
were about to put forward for Ireland. Now, it was
evident that the landed proprietors in Ireland had
not done their duty in the same way as it
had been done in Scotland, and he thought that this was a
great reason for refusing the motion. The Noble Nord at the
head of the Irish Commission had ascertained that it was ut-
terly impossible to provide for the poor without out-dour re-
lief. The Noble Lord who had opened the debate had put the
objection that it was necessary when the workhouses were full
they mast provide some means to meet the deficiency. Take
the case of the southern and western counties. • And how was
that expenditure to be met ? He thought that could only be
done by some system of colonisation. He had the other day
the pleasure of reading a letter from Mr. Murray, who was at
the head of the Provincial Bank of Ireland, and he believed
me command of a staff which gave
•L ~
him opportunities of gaining information which few people pos-
sessed. The bank had branches in the several pro .
vinces and districts of Ireland, and the only re.
medy which he could conceive as likely to lead
to a remedy for the distress in Ireland, was by some extensive
system of colonisation. Mr. Murray was allowed to be a very
sensible man, and considering the opportunities of information
which he possessed, he thought that his recommendation was
worthy of the highest respect. He hail not the slightest inter -
tion of saying more than one word on this question, but he had
been led into these details by his interest in the position of the
country.
Earl MOUNTCASHEL was quite astonished that the mo-
tion of the Noble Lord had met with so much opposition. It
was well known that upwards of 2,400,000 acres were employed
in the cultivation of the potato. The whole of that provision
had been lost to the country, and as the rental of the land in
Ireland was only, according to the report of the Poor-law
Commissioners, about 13,400,000/. ; and how, then, was this
to be sufficient, when the support of the people would cost
twenty millions. He sincerely trusted that the Noble, who had
shown so much information, and who had cited so many
authorities, would press this motion to a division, for if he did,
he should feel himself bound to give him his support.
Lord MONTEAGLE said that after the iong time during
which he had trespassed on their Lordships he should not
occupy more than five minutes. He would put it to the House
hether' after what he had stated and the way in which
he had been answered, his arguments were not most.
triumphant. He might not be successful in this division, but
he felt satisfied that the arguments which had been adduced
this night would have their full effect in hindering that wild
course on which the Government had su hastily entered.
Under any circumstances he should certainly press his motion
to a division.

The House then divided, when there appeared—
Fur the motion l2
Against it
Majority against the motion... ......
Their Lordships then adjourned at Twenty Minutes to One
o'clock.

HOUSE 01 COMMONS. March 26.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
CALEDONIAN RAILWAY BILLS.
Mr. GREENE moved that the following recommenda-
tion contained in the Third Report from the Classifica-
tio❑ Committee of Railway Bills be considered, viz :
" Your Committee recommend that the Caledonian
Railway Bill, No. 205, be divided into two
Bills ; the first to contain Edinburgh Station and
branches to Granton and Edinburgh and Glasgow Rail-
way. The second to contain branches to Wilsontown,
Fauldhouse, Biggar, and Broughton. The first Bill to
remain in this Group; the second to be placed in Group
47." That the order made on the 15th day of Feb-
ruary last, for referring the said Bill to the Com-
mittee of Selection be read, and discharged.
That the Bill be withdrawn. That leave be given
to bring in a Bill to enable the Caledonian Railway Com-
pany to extend their station in Edinburgh, and to make
branch railways to Granton and to the Edinburgh and
Glasgow Railway ; and that Mr. Hope Johnstone, Mr.
Lockhart, and Mr. Hodgson Hinde do prepare and bring
it in. That leave be given to bring in a Bill to enable
the Caledonian Railway Company to make branch rail-
ways to Wilsontown, to Fauldhouse, and to Biggar and
Broughton ; and that Mr. Hope Johnstone, Mr. Lock-
hart, and Mr. Hodgson Hinde do prepare and bring it in.
—Agreed to.
PETITIONS ON PRIVATE BILLS.
Mr. GREENE moved-" That it be an instruction to
the Committees which shall be appointed to meet on
Thursday, the 15th day of April, to entertain any
petitions which may be referred to them, provided the
same are presented on or before Monday, the 12th day
of April."—Agreed to.
THE BRIGHTON POLICE.
Captain PECHELL presented a petition from several
parties in Brighton, complaining of the conduct of the
police and the borough magistrates, inasmuch as they
had been placed in cells, and not allowed to communicate
with any one except in the presence of the police ; and
that subsequently they were dismissed without any in-
quiry being made into the truth of the charge made
against them. The Hon. Member also presented a peti-
ion from Worcester against the Peor RemovallAct.

E i MC ATION.

Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD presented two peti-
tions from Rochdale against the proposed Government
t, rant for education.
EDINBURGH AND PERTH RAILWAY BILL.
The second reading of this Bill was postponed till
Monday next.
IRISH POOR RELIEF BILL.
Mr. GREGORY presented several petitions in favour
of this Bill.

SCOTCH REGISTRATION BILL.
Mr. MATHESON presented a petition from the
schoolnvisters of 15ingwall against the proposed Regis-
tration Bill for Scotland.
CHARING-CROSS BRIDGE BILL.

This Bill was re;,dastTcolltiine and ordered to be
cornrnitt!d.

Mr. GREENE presented a petition against it, which
was referred to the Committee on the Bill.
GOVERNMENT PLAN OF EDUCATION.

➢ir. BRIG HT presented several petitions against the
minutes of Council recommending the increased grant
for education,
Mr. C. BERKELEY presented two petitions to the
same effect.

SECOND READINGS.
The following Bills were severally read a second
time;—Ayr Harbour; Ayrshire Roads; National Mer-