The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-18 00:00:00

v against those who opposed this Bill, he should not would, by shortening the hours of labour, give
be deterred from bringing forward his motion, and of stating them the opportunitynen of attending on Sunday-schools,
be reasons which led him to do so, together with the , of which, from wolevartierileand jaded by their weekly
reasons why he could not agree to the Bill ; but at the same ' labour, they could ngotson
time he must disclaim any intention of wishing to defeat this Bill, then, they would largelybeay'eryad‘. ant ag e. By
advancing passing
tho
the measure by any factitious opposition. He should not, at i morality of the people, for they would be affording to those
the moment the House was about to rise, at six o'clock, ' young persons the opportunity for acqrtiringdontes-tichaits,
Nt also
nova an amendment, as had been done in the former and thus not only enjoy a great bee
discussions of the measure.—(Hear, hear.) When he enable them to confer benefits on others.tit themselves,
Then,
with
thbu regard
tooked at the history of the various proceedings which had to wages, the Right lion. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth,
taken place on the subject of a Ten Hours' Bill, he was for- i had indulged in a long disquisition on the effect which this
eibly.led to the conclusion that Hon. Members had but a very I reduction of time would have upon wages • ' but a greater fal-
faint comprehension of the measure. He had taken the trouble 1 lacy had never been put before an ntellpigeeonptle aassembly.to look t hrough" Hansard ;" he there found that three years ago 1 That Right lion. Member had entered into a calculation to
I
when they divided on the Ten Hours' Bill introduced by Lord show, that, by this reduction, the working would be
Ashley, that the numbers were 186 to 183, and on the obtaining two holidays instead of one; but the fa ct
v was
Twelve Hours' Bill (as we understood the Hon. Gentleman) I that they were absolutely working seven days a
the numbers were—for the Bill, 183, and against it 181. I instead of six ; and the whole of the calculation on the redue-
Shortly after a Bill of the same class—a Ten I tion of the wages,by a sixteen per cent. income-tax, fell to the
Hours' Bill—was introduced, and the same House ground. By a reference to the work of Mr. Porter, it would
of Commons, who had decided against a Twelve ;be found that wages always bore a relative amount, not to
Hours' Bill, voted against this Bill by an overwhelm- I the time of the worker, but to the importance of the business
ing majority of 297 to 159. And now the supporter,tof the which he had to perform, and he (Mr. Finch) was prepared
measure had increased from 159 to 195, whilst the number ito show that, according to the evidence of expe-
of opponents of the measure had been reduced from 297 to ! rience, the reduction of the hours of labour would
87 ; therefore, it appeared to him, that the House had not aI in no way affect the rate of wages. The Right
very detruite notion of the question. Then he declared that I Honourable Baronet had talked of giving the people cheap
the title of the Bill was a dishonest one, as it was termed a I =non, cheap bread, and cheap beef; but this hed better be lett
"Bill for limiting the hours of labour of young Ito the people themselves, who, if they were allowed sufficient
persons and females in factories." He therefore wished ' opportunity, would be able to take care of their own interests
to put this question to those who had charge in these matters without the intervention of the Legislature.
of the Bill : " Will the Bill not also affect the .In America the manufacturers did not suffer by limiting the
labour of adults—of men ?" They must know that if they I hours of labour, and in point of machinery, coals, and capital,
limited the hours of children and females to ten hours a day, . they were in a much worse position than the manufacturers
that the men would be prevented from working more than lof this country. He had no hesitation in saying that the
ten hours a day. They could not work without their aid, manufacturers of this country would have as much work
and therefore they must suspend their labour at the same done by working ten hours a day as by working twelve
time. He a lid, therefore, that the Bill was nothing more hours, and Ii hoped the House would carry the Bill as a
than " a delusion, a mockery, and a snare," as it could Ten Hours' Bill.
not fail to have the effect he had pointed out. lie was Mr. AGLIONBY said that the principle of the Bill had
not one of those who admitted that former legisla- been debated over and over again, and been decided upon
tion had been beneficial. They had lately interfered with by the House. lie did not think it necessary, there-
regard to children, and the result of that interference was, fore, to take up the time of the House' but would im-
that at the present moment there was not employed in plore them to go at once into Committee. The
Scotland one single young person under the age of thir- Hon. Member for Glasgow had stated no adequate reason
teen. He wished to know if it had in any way pro- for postponing the Bill for a fortnight, and he hoped his pro-
moted their interest. On the contrary, he had in his position would be rejected. lie thought it better therefore
possession an advertisement, inserted in a Glasaow paper, to proceed with the question at once, and any amendments
calling a meeting to take into consideration the lamentable Hon. Members wished to make could be discussed in Com-
condition of the children who infested the streets of this, the mittee.
second city in the empire. All illegitimate interference with Lord J. RUSSELL agreed with the Hon. Gentleman who
labour on the part of the Government was, in his opinion, had just spoken that the best course for them to adopt would
most objectionable. They had interfered in favour of the be to go into Committee at once. Had he had an opportu-
agriculturists by their abolition of the corn-laws. They had nit.y of stating his opinions before the House rose when the
interfered in favour of the shipping interest by the navigation- question was last under consideration, he would have made
laws. In the West Indies, their sugar duties were interfering some remarks on the general question. It was
with them, and, again, there were the enormous duties they not, however, the fault of the opponents of
had imposed upon silk. He would ask the House who had the measure that he had not had that opportunity.
been the parties? Who had come there year after year (as The Honourable Gentleman who spoke towards the close
an Hon. Gentleman opposite had expressed it) whining for of the evening, had been carried away by his argument,
protection, but those very parties on whose behalf they had and was in consequence induced to prolong his speech till
attempted to interfere? They had not only interfered with nearly six o'clock. He was quite willing to forego the oppor-
protection but they were now about to interfere with the tunity he had at present to enter into the question, and
rights of those who had never before asked anything at he did so for the purpose of preventing delay and
the hands of that House. lie had been very much struck avoiding a fresh debate. The House had pronounced
with the mode in which the Right lion. Member for its opinion on the measure twice—first, on the second
Tamworth put the case a, affecting wages, but he had very reading of the Bill; and, secondly, on going into Committee.
much understated the case. He said that their interference He took the question, then, as decided, and he thought it far
would be equal to an income-tax of 12 per cent. on wages, better for them to go into Committee at once, when any
but it was in reality equal to an income-tax of 16* per cent., amendment the Hon. Member for Glasgow, or any other
and more than that, for when they placed an income-tax on Hon. Member, might propose, could be discussed. He
all property above 1501., they did riot, at the same time, tie thought his Hen. Friend who had spoken last had made a
the hands of all the parties who were liable to it. On mistake with regard to the proposition which he stated as
the contrary, it was only an inducement for further having been made by the masters, and that it could not
exertion and more determined energy to make up for be regarded with sincerity, inasmuch as it was made at the
that loss. They were not only putting a tax. of five- eleventh hour. He ( Lord John Russell) thought that so far
fold upon the labourer, but they at the same time tied his from its being a proposition of the manufacturers, it was a
hands, and said that no powers of his should be exerted be- proposition of ono gentleman—(Cries of " Three ")—engaged
yond ten hours of labour. That was neither more nor less in the cotton manufacture,. He thought it, therefore, uu-
than a boon to their foreign competitors. He did think that fair to charge them with bringing forward the question of
the House she uld be more cautious before it gave in to a relays, or of introducing it at the eleventh hour. He
notion, which he knew was very prevalent, that this thought it quite unnecessary to discuss that propo-
country, in its manufacture of cotton, was infallible in its sition now, and considered that the best course for
supremacy. and that no foreign nation could touch them. He the House to adopt would be to go at once into
believed that a more fatal delusion never went abroad ; and he Committee. It was true that great anxiety and great ex-
might say that the trade of a country once gone, was gone for pectations were felt on the subject, and he trusted they would
ever. Let the House look at the manufactures of Flanders. lose no further time.
What was the situation of Bruges and Ghent? At one time Mr. FOX MAULS said, when the Hon. Gentleman got up
they possessed the whole manufacture of lace. They and used arguments for not delaying the further consideration
had lost it, and had never since been able to of the Bill, he thought he should refrain from introducing
recover the loss. They might say that there topics in his speech, which would have the effect orgiving rise
men had not the industry and energy of those of this coun- to argument. The Hon. Member for Cockermout h stated that
try, but they stood nearly equal to this country in the menu- the object of the amendment was to cause farther delay,
facture of cotton. What was the state of the cotton trade and that the minds of its advocates were so fully made up,
towards the close of the last century, and he might say towards that it was quite useless to make any proposition to them
the close of the war? Why, this country possessed almost to forego the Ten Hours' Bill, and, secondly, that the propo-
the entire manufacture of cotton, but, from one cause sition now made was not a hood fide one, inasmuch
or another, competition had gradually sprung up, so as it was made at the eleventh hour.—(bear, hear.)
that, at the present moment, in the article of The parties who had made this proposition were not only
cotton, instead of being the sole manufacturers, their foreign honourable men in their calling, but also gentlemen who had
rivals managed exactly to compete with them ; that was done all they could to carry out in their manufactories the
to say, that they manufactured the same amount of cotton, provisions of the Factories Bill.
and they were encroaching upon this country at a great Mr. AGLIONBY said—Directly the opposite.
rate. There were many causes for that. They had great Mr. FOX MAULE—Then his ears never so mistook any-
water power and less cost of the raw material, but they were thing which had ever been stated in that House. He thought
about to step in and make an artificial restriction, which that the proposition showed something like a desire upon the
would act as a boon to that country. He had part of the masters to meet the wishes of the men ; and he
got a statement of the usual hours worked by thought it desirable to secure the seining co-operation of
five of their chief competitors, America, France, both masters and operatives in carrying out the provisions of
Prussia, Switzerland, and the Tyrol. They worked upon the Factories Bill, should such pass into a law. If good
the average 14 per cent. more than this country. But, said feeling were not established between the masters and opera-
the Noble Lord, they could not refer to America, because he tires the greatest mischiefs would result from the passing
understood that during six weeks or two months they bad of the proposed measure.
holidays allowed to them. He would then strike out America Mr. AGLIONBY rose to explain. He denied having
altogethenwhich worked 13 per cent. more than thiscountry, made any reflection whatever on the character or conduct
and there remained still an advantage of 14 per cent. in favour pursued by any manufacturers with respect to this measure.
of the remaining countries. They proposed to add 16 per Mr. BROWNE thought that by passing this measure au
cent. more to that advantage, making 30 per cent. in their injury would be inflicted upon the country, equal in its ex-
favour. But, if they looked at it in another point of view, tent to that produced by Louis XIV. upon France, by the
the magnitude of the interest involved in this country was banishment of skill and labour from that country, wit& the
something enormous. Let them see what was the money cruelty inflicted upon the operatives themselves would be of
value of the manufactures of this country? He should take the most serious and alarming kind. It was an undeniable
It at the moderate estimate which he had put, namely, proposition, that a few hour's employment would be remune-
-119,000,000. Now, it they struck off one-sixth of rated by low wages only. The present measure proposed to ,
that amount ; they would strike off nineteen millions per rob the poor man of all the capital which he possessed, viz.,
cent. How would that effect the export trade? lie believed his labour, and he should therefore feel it his duty to oppose
that the great bulk of it would come into other hands, and if the further progress of the measure.
their exports did increase to nineteen millions, or in what - Mr. P. BORTHWICK opposed the amendment. The object
ever proportion they increased, be would wish to know what of the amendment appeared to him to have been proposed for
would become of their imports, and what would become of the purpo,e of obstructing the progress of a measure which
the enormous amount of trade they would be compelled to hal virtually received the sanction of the House.
forego. He thought that the lateßlinistry had well and pro- Mr. BRIGHT wished to make a few observations with
perly resisted this infraction, and, in point offset, the present respect to the petition which had been presented by the
Government, although the Noble Lord at the head of it was Noble Lord at the head of the Government. Some time ago
not opposed to it, those who were at the present time more a memorial was presented to the Noble Lord and his col-
perfectly responsible for the finances of the country were in leagues, signed by nearly 400 master spinners largely en-
oppo -ition to it. What di.! the Chancellor of the Excite- gaged in the cotton trade, representin,!, he might say, five-
s ,
five-
quer say ? There was no man in that House more opposed sixths of the capital inverted in that trade, and employing over
to the views of the promoters of this measure. What said , 120,000 persons; but the Noble Lord, he was sorry to say,
the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Right Hon. ' did not accede to the proposition which it contained. But,
Member for Cambridge, and what said the one before today, be had presented a petition in favour of the Bill,
him, the Right lion. Member for Portsmouth? What which he stated was signed by manufacturers in Lancashire,
said Lord Monteagle and Lord Ripon? Why they were all York, Chester, and Derby. Time first name in the petition
opposed to it. The Secretary of the Board of Trade, Lord was that of the brother of the Hon. Gentleman the Member
Clarendon, the Secretary for Ireland, and the former Presi- for Oldham, to which no one could object. Next came
dent of the Board of Trade—every one of those, with a regard the names of several persons who were stated to reside in
for tire finances of the country, were diametrically opposed Rochdale; but, with the exception of about twelve, he was
to it. Notwithstanding all that array of authority they had in a condition to say that he never had the felicity of know-
determined to proceed. At all events, those opposed to ing that they were spinners. One signed himself John
the measure would have done their duty in warning Scholefield, a flannel manufacturer, who stated that he en-l-
ed six persons.—(" Ilea', hear," from Mr. Ferranti )
the House of what in their opinion would be tire inevitable 1,103.
result. On them alone would rest the responsibility. He another' Josh. Wild, of Great Bolton, waste dealer, who em-
would make a short statement with regard to the amend-
ployed four persons; but the majority of theta employed
ment as proposed to her Majesty's Government. lie had no more than two persons, and but few of theta employed
given the subject his best attentions, and he must three. Some of them signed themselves grocers and
say that it appeared to him, as he would show, a drapers. At any rate the majority of those who had signed
very feasible one. His only objection was that the the petition had little or no connexion with steam-power,
House was going too far, because, in point of fact, they or in the capital invested in machinery, or any of
were to admit the principle of the ten hours those trades which the Bill was proposed-to affect. He
altogether as applied to the number of hours to be wrought complained that such a petition had been presented by the
in a week or in a year. The advocates of this measure said Prime Minister, because a petition presented by one in that
that no female or young person should work more than 59 high office carried with it much authority. Perhaps not
hours in a week. He took that principle, and agreed with one-hundredth part of the capital invested in the cottons arid
it—all that he asked was that they should concede that other trades was represented by them. Either the Noble
which appeared to hint to be the principle of the Bill. Lord must have been at a great loss for supporters, or he had
That they should be allowed to work during the been grossly deceived ; certainly it did not convey the views
three clays as much as twelve hours at a time of those engaged in that trade. He also complained that the
binding themselves not to work during two con: Noble Lord had not discussed the principle of the Bill. On
sccutive days more than twenty hours—that was twelve the first occasion he WAS asked to discuss it, but he declined
hours one day and eight hours on the succeeding day. Their to do so; he was in the second stage sought to do so, but he
object was to be allowed to work their machinery during three again declined. Now they were about going into Corn-
days for twelve hours, so that by a system of relays the pro-
mittee he still adhered to his resolution not to speak.
ductive powers of the country would not be trenched upon.
He should not complain of this if the Noble Lord were not at
If that point were conceded it would meet their views almost the head of the Government. lie admired his talents and
to the letter. That was a fair proposal, and they would do his courage, and he, and those on that site of the House who
well at once to agree to it. He called upon the House, how- felt disposed to support the Noble Lord's Government, felt
ever, to delay the measure for one single fortnight. The g
Hon. Member for Knaresborough said that it was a most un- rieved at his silence as to the grounds on which he sup-
ported the Bill.--(Hear.) lie stated it did not resolve itself
fair thing to delay the passing of this measure until after into a question of principle but into one of degree;
Easter. lie would ask the Hon. Member for Oldham but, whether it was a question of principle or of degree, the
Bill would, if passed, have the effect of stopping the ma-
if there was the slightest chance of any further stage
being obtained fur this Bill before Easter? Even under the chinery of the country to a great extent, and therefore
most favourable circumstances, they could not; get be-
was one of paramount importance.—(The Hon. Gentle-
yond the Committee; and when the report was broughtlong
man then read a extract from an article in the last
up there would be a dscussion upon that. Under the most number of Chambers s Journal, entitled " Two Days
favourable circumstances, they could not bring up the report in Dundee," by NS' Mien Chambers—all of whose
before Easter. He proposed that they should go into Committee writings, he said, could be relied upon—to show that
that day fortnight, so that the manufacturers of the country many parents had removed their children from the factories,
should have time to consider the provisions of the Bill. They where they were earning 18.3 d. a week, for the purpose of
would be able to say "aye" or "no." If they agreed to it, being sent out to beg. The industrial schools gave three
it would be preferable that the measure should have meals a day, and this led them to consider the question
the general concurrence of the masters and men, whether this quantity of food, and what was made
and there would be less opposition in the House than there by begging, was not of more value than the wages
they received. This showed that interference with
tototitiehoesneippleoryseornss., NBVl3,l,lltSitteitrNevtoulrinlds
was likely to be if they went on at present. It would be
difficult to explain, to such an audience as he then had, as to
dlaoboinuerawle•ouulaldbleelo
the proposed mode of working the mills by the system of mili°scghoieofd
relays, and how that system was to be got up. In his of the factory inspectors, it appeared that from the year
mind it was perfectly practicable to use such a system, 1835, when this system of agitation commenced, down to
and they would not require more than '2O per 1839, there wete 30,000 fewer children employed under 13
cent., or one-fifth more of the amount of labour. Solt- years of age. Mr. Owen was more entitled to the
posing that a mill at present employed 100 operatives, authorship of this plan than any other person, as he
Under this clause, the same mill would be obliged to employ had suggested it years ago. From a paper he had
120, and of course their wages would continue to be the received front the United States, it appeared that a corn-
same. The mode in which this was to be brought about rnittee of Congress had, on his instigation, been appointedutdo
he would explain. Supposing that 120 hands entered consider the subject, but they had reported that they o
the mill on the Monday morning, sixty of these hands would not come to any conclusion on the subject. The Bill wouldl e
work the entire day, and the rest would be divided into threelegislation could not
with-
relays. At the hour of breakfast the first 20 labourers would out the aid of the great manufacturers,
master-manufacturers thought
wantonly interfere-with the capital of the country, and
be carried on at all ; and if the .
retire, and their place would be taken by the reserve twenty,
and at three o'clock the' second twenty would have thesr pro
places taken by the twenty which had worked for the first be carried out.
arldlestated.that if it was not passed the
three hours. It would be imposiible to explain the system Knaresborough h
would revolt ; but they had found that every
Proper to enter into a comlblionnationaflaotoinsatntlitishßoilllsiltecmobuoldr not
properly to the House, and therefore he could not proceed working classes
with it.—(Cries of "Go on.") These would be again re- and many of them anticipated
lies by another reserve, so that the third branch would a reduction
resulto
front this measure. Why should the
only have worked eight hours. The result of that was, that a like
'eduction of the hours of work had been accompanied with
out of the 120 sixty worked for twelve hours, and sixty of this year by working more hours during
worked for eight hours. The next day the thing was exactly for the losses were anxious to make up
reversed, for those who worked twelve hours on the Monday 1348 be pre
era would rather have a ten hours than an eleven
manufacturersveonf
tecdottforno,ns
who
00ing so ? lie believed the
would work only eight hours on the Tuesday, and those
a mPis°'Yß 13}I1. —(Bear, (Hear, bear.) The employers who approved
who worked eight hours on the Monday would work twelve
hourit simply did so in order that it might be
hours on the Tuesday. Thus the thing would go on until
. maintain it.—(Hear, hear.) lie, for one, wished
the Saturday, when the hours were restricted to nine; but
• ciple could be applied to those nine hours. So would hear.) The speech of
the same prin °tried ~ and if it was found a good principle they
the matter decided at once.—(Hear,
that the whole 120 would only have been working seven
the lion. Gentleman the Member for Salford (Mr. Brother-
hours per day during the week—an amount considerably less
ton) had a great effect upon the House; but since that Hon.
than the proposed Ten Hours Bill. In a short time he
Gentleman was employed in a factory a great change had
thought that the system would work so well that they
taken place, as an enactment had been passed forbidding
would be enabled to carry it en with 116 instead of 120.
the employment of persons under thirteen for more than six
He had endeheavohaut ifeavouredd been ured to m
atakall obscuree the systemit was as diowingstinct ato the s oe-
hours a day, and the majority of the young persons in
p
difficulty of explaining these operations to such an assembly. They had more persons then in shops in this country under
Ile had done his duty, and felt greatly obliged for the atten- other trades, who were apprenticed, were under thirteen.
the ages of fourteen than they had in their factories. Theo
thin with which he had been heard, and would conclude by
were in a temperature not less injurious, and engaged in work
moving that this Bill be committed this day fortnight.
hardly less hurtful than in the factories. Ile bud a str(,ng
Mr. FINCH had anticipated, when he saw the notice on
feeling for the working classes, and he would rather ,
the paper, that this motion was merely a factious obpopuoitihiii,
oppose them than deceive them, for lie had a I
and
Member thereforeanel any h ebut he saw that the measure
whetherlVas a
the thoeuusee
regard for his own practical experience and con- i
both scientione convictions. He believed that the Bill
; d it, the mover and his motion were
accepted or rejected
plet)oiriteltihowtoxoltdionbeofintjiurerioluiso,n.
The llon. Me ber ftr Oldham had him-
one, and he believed therefore,
..
entitled to respect. on.of
malthough ob.
self allowed that the system relays,very sVtilaSollld°llseu
other vote which would retard the passing ofthis
many accounts, was at least an advantage. measure.
jectionable on Her Majesty's Government had voted for this measure three
the had just sat down had stated that
The lion. Member who .
children in Glasgow were previously neglected, but that years ago, and he (Mr. Bright) had predicted what would
the happen. That prediction had since been fulfilled. H
not an uncommon occurrence, and he did not see eholed
was that, seeing the consequences
of the vote, her A ' '' '
the Ten Hours' Bill would. at all affect the evil
that
vernment would not now assist
e which so much complaint was made. It had been in forwarding the measure.
o Mr. lIINDLEY saidthat
I. that with respect to young females they did not attend . • he had been a free- trader all his
urged
to them after the business of the day was concluded , • but it life, and believed in the principle to its •
fullest extent, but he
thought that the
was plainly evident that, according to their constitution and
the slat of • t of their health, they would either partake of articles produced should be made with a due regard to the
feelings and morals of dcn3estic enjoyment or have the opportunity or improve-the people. What had Mr. Cobden
sand upon this
Went in the lectiire-mta or reacting elation. Theyf subject? After commenting upon the system
0 elTrt:foLl UFN trade, la tad 'raid, that if the