The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-26 00:00:00

the so-called Irish party, who had met together with
every appearance of doing something for the benefit of
Ireland, but who were now broken up. If he had felt I
—as they, the Irish Members in that House did—
the strain of the present distress in Ireland, he would
have called upon the House to appropriate the funds of
a church of a minority, a very small minority in that
country. The Hon. Member for Kinsale (Mr. Watson)
had brought in a Bill to repeal a part of an Act of by-
gone years. The Bill only related to a very few statutes
- • which could be construed as nothing but an insult to the
members of the Catholic Church. These words were
neither more nor less than superfluous verbiage for any
other purpose, for they had lost all effect as a legal en-
actment ; and yet these gentlemen came down, and both
spoke and voted against the abolition of this last shred
of worn-out bigotry. And these were the men into
whose hands they were about to commit the guardian-
ship of the poor, and the education of the children of
the Roman Catholic population! Although they had thus
obtained a predominance in Ireland, they yet had been un-
able so far to command themselves as to refrain from
adopting this means of tyrannising over the majority of
the people of that country. The Roman Catholic Mem-
bers were in a small minority in that-House, and they
had very little hope of carrying the amendment of this
clause; yet, if it were not carried, he would give the Go-
vernment notice, and that frankly, that they would be
giving rise to a religious agitation such as they had
never yet seen, for the Irish Members felt deter-
mined to protect the helpless people over whose
interests it was their duty to watch. If there was
any advantage of salary, of emolument, or of trust,
in Heaven's name let it be given to the Establishment,
but let them not depress the Roman Catholic people.
There were two amendments ; one provided that there
should be a separate chapel, and the second was
the supervision of the education of the children of the
Roman Catholic population ; and if they passed the
Bill as it now stood, he warned them that they would
be sowing the seeds f a religious agitation which it was
sickening to the heart to anticipate. He had now passed
over the most painful part of the subject. Unfortunately,
he had very large details, but into them he would not
now enter ; and he would now turn to the political
effect of this ex-officio clause. If the Government
pressed this clause in its present shape they would be
giving the Irish landlords the opportunity of sealing up
their pockets more closely than ever, and if it were per-
severed in he gave the Hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. P.
Scrope) warning that he would fail in both of his ex-
pectations. He would fail in obtaining the collection of the
rate, and he would fail in the repression of those agrarian
outrages which had always resulted from these imposi-
tions on the Irish people. It was his firm belief that so
far from repressing these outrages, it would have the
effect of increasing them, and not only would the assas-
sin be alert on his midnight prowls, but he would be
seen in open day ready to commit those murders which
were equally apalling to the mind and discreditable to
the law by which they were occasioned. He trusted,
therefore, that the Government would not persist in
the adoption of this clause without first referring it to a
Select Committee to inquire into the effects which were
likely to follow its incorporation into the Bill.
Sir G. GREY agreed with the Hon. Member for Kil-
kenny that the rights of conscience of the people of Ire-
land should be respected, and everyreasonable precaution
taken against their infringement. In proposing this
clause, however, the Government never dreamt that it
would have the effect which the Hon. Gentleman anti-
cipated. He regretted that the introduction of it should
have given occasion to a discussion involving religious
considerations. He respected his feeling of attach-
ment to the Church to which be belonged, and he
agreed with him that every proper precaution should be
taken against its members being subjected to any in-
fringement of their religious liberty. But her Majesty's
Government thought that the religious differences which
existed in that country would be removed by the pre-
sent law. The Hon. Gentleman rested his objection to
the clause on religious grounds, but he drew his inferences
as to the probable working of the clause from the actual
state of things in Ireland at that moment. He stated
that, speaking generally, the greater number of ex
officio guardians in Ireland were Protestants ; and the
consequence would be, that tyranny would be exercised
over the inmates of workhouses who were Roman
Catholics, by the influence of these magistrates. He
thought that, by the alteration proposed in the clause,
there would be far less opportunity afforded for
the exercise of religious interference.—(Hear; hear.)
By the operation of the clause the present partial se-
lection of ex-officio guardians would be put an end to, as
the Roman Catholic magistrates who might be resident
in the union would have the privilege of becoming ex-
officio guardians. In England all the justices re-
sident in the union were ex-officio guardians,
and it was thought, that when it was pro-
posed to increase the burdens on property for
the relief of the poor, it was but right there should be an
increase in the representation of that property on which
would fall a large proportion of the rates. In the
case of all tenements above 41. one-half of the rate, and
in other cases considerably more than one-half, was paid
by the tenant, and afterwards deducted from the rent.
He trusted the clause would not be productive of the
effects anticipated by the Hon. Gentleman, but if so, he
thought it much better to meet the case by a special en-
actment than by any indirect means—by limiting the
number of ex-officio guardians.
Mr. SHAW did agree with the Hon. Member for
Kilkenny, that the clause would have the effect;antici-
pated by him. He deprecated :the introduction of any-
thing having a tendency to introduce religious discus.
aion. With regard to the censure of the Hon. Gentle-
man, with regard to his opposition and that of some
of he "Mi Party," to the Bill for the removal
of the disabilities of the Roman Catholics introduced by
the Hon. Member for Kinsale, he wished to state that his
vote on that occasion was entirely influenced by his convic-
tion that the arrangements made in 1829 should not be al-
tered. All magistrates should be ex-officio members of the
boards of guardians; and he intended to propose, at a
future stage, an amendment having that object in view.
He objected to the Government plan of not making all
the magistrates in an union- ex-officio members of those
boards.
Mr. BELLEW had always been in favour of such a
poor-law as the one proposed by the Government. He
considered, however, that the amendment would be pro-
ductive of much good on account of the great dissimilarity
between the number of Catholics and Protestants.
Sir J. WALSH said that in his opinion the religious
differences in Ireland would not form an insuperable bar
to any proper administration of the law. Hon. Mem-
bers came forward and said that Catholics and Protest-
ants could not sit at the same board without mutual
jealousy. Such an argument was erroneous, for what-
ever might be the difference of religious opinion, he
was sure that measures had been already taken by the
House to remove that feeling. He admitted that with re-
gard to ex-officio guardians, those who were so appointed,
from their station and education, took a very leading part in
the active administration of the affairs. Such a fact was
sometimes deprecated, but by no means justly so, for it
was generally desired by boards of guardians that such
should be the case, as considerable benefit and assistance
was derived from their interference.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said, he wished to bring the
attention of the House to the real bearing of the ques-
tion. That he considered to be was whether or
not the landlords of Ireland, from their past and
present conduct, were entitled to claim any in-
fluence in the board of guardians or whether such would
be more likely to lead to a better working of the system.
Now, he would wish to know what right they (the land-
lords of Ireland) had to demand any greater influence
on these boards than other individuals eligible
for the office of guardian. On a late occasion
he had brought forward a resolution which
contained the assertion that all the evils of
Ireland were to be traced to the system adopted by the
landlords of that country. In support of that assertion
he bad adduced facts which Hon. Members had never
attempted to controvert. He was happy to hear an
Honourable Gentleman assert that the interests of
the landlord and tenant were identical. That was a
principle upon which hitherto the landlords of
Ireland had never acted. There was no guarantee
from their past :conduct that the landlords of Ire•
land would administer the law in the manner in which
the people of this country would wish it to be admi-
nistered.

Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN said that a great deal of dissa-
tisfaction had existed on this very measure. Ile thought
the proposal under consideration would do a great deal
of harm. Such a system of class legislation must be
the cause of much ill-feeling and dissatisfaction.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
Bill was as near as possible founded on the law of Eng-
land. Now the law in this country in respect' to ex-
officio guardians had been found to work well, and he
did not see why the same system should not operate as
advantageously in Ireland.—(Bear, hear.) From a
considerable amount of experience of the working of
the English law, he was sure the measure could
not be worked without a considerable infusion of
tr-officio guardians. If the present law was carried
into effect there would be a greater number of meetings
of the poor-law guardians than before, and he was per-
suaded the elected guardians could not sufficiently attend
to the business. Hence there was a necessity for a
considerable number of ex officio guardians, who would
have leisure to attend to the administration of the law.
From a full consideration of all the circumstances, he
thought the clause ought to stand in its present form.
Mr. D. BROWNE opposed the clause, because it
would give a decided preponderance to one class in
Ireland—the landlord class. He opposed ,it also
because it was a violation of the electoral principle.
would much rather have a coercion Bill than
a Bin as the present, inasmuch, as while coercion
was to put down insubordination in the country, the
present measure was one that would cause every kind
of ill-feeling andinsubordination. No step could
be taken
forcingsuch a Bill through the House.
Gov
ernment, with the greatest respect,
that this
the measure clauin se
Irelamllrevent the peaceable working of
3
Mr. FITZGERALD was „„;,_
ready to adopt
the principles of the gong ember
theidezuber for Dublin
ant
ternrtaheins t would
(Mr. Shaw), and trusted
reconsider this measure, and
Member for
into a modified form. The gn. clause
of seeing all the
had divided the on.
landlords into
two parties—that which was desirous
measures of the Government passed, and that which
was called the Irish party, and of this party he woad
say that it had no object to serve in impeding the mea.
sures of Government. That party had issued certain
resolutions which he had certainly signed—("Hear,
hear," from Mr. Shaw and others)—but in being
a party to those resolutions he must profess that
he was no violent revolutionist, although he was a
repealer, and he was therefore in no way adverse
to any measures which were likely to benefit Ireland.
He was not consulted on the deputation which waited
on the Noble Lord opposite (Lord G. Bentinck), but he
might take that opportunity of expressing his admira-
tion of the conduct of the Noble Lord, although he might