The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-05 00:00:00

amount was let to-morrow it would not be worth more than
P/ a rear, and yet these persons are registered as having a
beneficial interest over and above their rent, entitling them
to vote upon a 101 qualification.—( Cheers from the Cly-
pysoion. \V, it might the Noble Lord think he would
give ma a triumph.--(Cheers ) It is a peremptory tri-
umph, but I could hardly believe that a system of -fraud
upon the existing franchise in Ireland had been carried on
in any country to that ecorirvoYs exttllt to which he now
learned from the statement of the Noble Lord it had been.
—( Cheers and counter cheers ) The Noll,: Lord says
that the alteration which he proposes is a large alteration,
and that it is a fresh settlement of the franchise. No
doubt it is a large alteraion—no doubt it is Atogether a
fresh settlement of the franchise.—( Cheers. ) I shall not
follow the Noble Lord through all the topics he has urged,
and which he says have hitherto been the exclusive property
of the lion. and Learned Merv'. r for Dubin, of the corn-
parstive proportion between population and representation
in various counties in Ireland and England. I should like
to kn ,w distinctly from the Government wlietlptr they row
declare it was the intention that the Refonned Parham, nt
or the qualification of electors, should be based upon po-
pulation, arid not upon property --(Opposition cheers. )
I, as a Member of Lord Gray's Government, always un-
derstood it was distinctly stated by every Member of the
Government, that it was on property, and not upon popu-
lation, the franchise was pr posed to la• based; that the
right was to depend not upon the numb or of the popula-
tion in a particular county, but upon the numbAt of that
pepulation who were in possession of a certain nmount of
property, which property would place them in such a state
of respectability and independence of circumstances as
would entitle them to exercise the elective franchise,—
( The Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies
ail! not deny that proposition ; and I ask the Noble Lord,
I entreat hint to correct me, it I am wrong in stating that
these are his propositions—that every man who occupies a
dwelling, with land attached to it, to be rated at 3/. a-
y car, shall be entitled to the benefits, which by the present
laws are conferred on those who are rated at 101 ?

Lord MORPETH—With fourteen years' interest.
Lord STANLEY—Very well with fourteen years'
interest. I heard a great deal said of the inexpe.dicncy of
lowering the franchise in counties to let ; but if I
rightly understand the Noble Lord, he proposes to
deluge the counties.—(Cheers) At the rate at which
land is let in Ireland, every man who is in possession of a
cabin and two acres of land, although he pays double or
rack-rent, shall he thrown upon tho cons7iTu:.ney for the
purpose of creating a body of free and independent
voters. —( Repeated cheering from the Opposition Ix:net:es.)
I h,pe I righly understand the Noble Lord. Indeed, I
take it from his silence that I did not misunderstand him—
( Eicar)— and that I have stated his intentions as he wishes
them to be understood by the Hou ,e and the country.—
(Hear.) It so, I will not now prematurely comment
upon any part of the Bill.—( Hear, hear.) I earnestly
desire to see it printed, and to leave it to tell its own tale,
and to make its own way in this House, and with the
people of England and Ireland.—(Loud cheers from both
sides.)

Lord HO WICK. said, Sir, like my Noble Friend who
has jest sat down, I propose to reserve my views on this
subject for a future stage of the Bill ; hut as I was last
year placed in the pitiful position of being compelled, on
morelthan one occasion, to oppose, in reference to this sub-
ject, those friends with whom for years I have been accus-
tomed to act ; I cannot deny myself the satisfaction now
at the first moment to declare at once, and without hesi
Cation, that iii the principle of my Noble Friend's proposi-
tion—as far as relates to the alteration of the qualification
of voters in Ireland—l give him my most hearty concur-
rence.—( Great cheering on both sides.) Last year, when
the subject wss under consideration, I was persuaded, as,
indeed, it etas admi tni on both sides of the House, that the
calving; system offered facilities for fraud end temptations
to perjury, end to violations of all the principles of the law.
Hear, hear.) 0 r that occasion I stated such to be my
opinion, and the opiiii, n which I then expressed I do not
now regret I said that I weuld support a measure
which should provide for the more full and satisfactory
administration of the law. I said that if the law was
defsctive I would concur in its amendment ; but I would
not be a party to an attempt to remedy the inconveniences
by defeating and evading the law —( Hear, hear.) I
would not consent to that course, because I believed that
in doing so we should undermine in Ireland the sanctity of
an oath—respect for the laws, and the principles of reli-
gion and morality e }jell constitute the true strength of a
country. But, Sir, I supported the principles of the Bill
introduced by my Noble Friend opposite, because I thought
that Ist a little alteration, it might be made the means of
carryrg out the law of registration fairly and satisfactorily.
Believing this I would not consent to oppose that measure
for any purpose of party convenience, nor even for the
purpose of avoiding a separation from my friends.—( Hear,
hear.) Bet I then gave a pledge that I sin now here to
redeem.—(Cherrs.) Although I concurred with the
Noble Lord in his desire to establish a tribunal to investi-
gate the claims of the voters, it was not my obj-ct to re-
strict the franchise—(Cheers)—on the contrary, I stated
that I would he prepared to concur in any measure which
would amend the extremely unsettled state of the
franchise. —( Hear, hear ) The principle of the recom-
mendation now offered by my Noble Friend was, if I re-
member rightly, thrown out. by the Hon. Member for
Monaghan, Mr. Lugs, and it seems to rest upon the
simolest p'inciples of the franchise. It may be true, as my
Noble Friend opposite ( Lord Stanley) has stated, that it is
a plan unheard of in Engiand, and undreamt ce. in Scotland.
Bet even if it be so; yet, as I believe it is suited to the ex-
isting state of society in Ireland, and that it is calculated
to correct the great evils which now prevail in that country,
I am not to be deterred from giving it my support by any
consideration of that kind.--( Cheers.) I think it is suited
to the circumstances of Ireland.—(Cheers.) I think it is
calculated to correct those evils.—(Cheers.) Wilt re-
spect to the existing franchise, I think it is impossible for
any man to look to what is passing before our eyes and deny
that it requires to be more clearly defined.—( Hear, hear.)
What is the meaning of the words " beneficial interest," es
they are understood on the opposite side of the House ? On
teis side it in contended, and by many able lawyers, that
they Wore intended to include whatever profit might be
produced by a man's own labour out of his holding
Oa the other heed, it is held by gentlemen opposite that
every holding should be of the clear value of 101., with-
out any consideration of the labour employed upon it.
But on th-t other hand it is contended that "beneficial inte-
rest" means that he is to be able to underlet his land to a
solvent tenant for 101 more than he gives for it. If that
definition is to be accepted, I say that the Reform Bill was
a delusion practised on the people of Ireland : if that i 3 to
be the definition put upon the words " beneficial interest,"
is it possible to conceive that, in the state of society in that
country, and the manner in which land is usually occupied
there, such a definition would not restrict and narrow the
franchise in a manner inconsistent with the Reform Bill ?
Well, Sir, if both those definitions fail, if we would put an
end to those scenes with which we are familiar in Election
Committees of this House, in which parties are brought
forward—a land-surveyor on the one side swearing
that the land was not worth 101., and the occupier swear-
mg, on the other, that it was worth that sum—both attach-
' ing different meanings to the word, and both justifying
thereby, in their own opinions, the oaths they had taken—
if, I repeat, we wish to put an end to these abuses, we are
driven to look for a new franchise, and in seeking for that
new franchisee what principle is so simple in the existing
state of Ireland, so likely to prevent disputes and wall cu-
ing swearing. and all the excitement of the present regis-
tration—what is se likely to answer all these purposes as to
regulate the franchise according to the amount at which
' land is rated, and that he the condition on which the
franchise is to be gained ? It appears to me that that
principle is perfectly just and proper. It remains for
consideration at a future stage of these proceedings to
see whether the amount which my Noble Friend pro-
posed to make, namely 6/. annual, be a proper amount
or not. Upon that point Hon. Members opposite gave
a definitive opinion, but I will fairly state to the
House, that, as far as my opinion on the question goes,
I perfectly concur in the view of my Noble Friend. I con-
sider it of great importance with respect to Ireland that
matters should be so arranged that the franchise in that
country may not be improperly narrowed, and though those
statements which the Hon. and Learned Member for Dub-
lin repeated so frequently last year as to the comparative
I number of voters with respect to the population of Eng-
land and Ireland—though in my opinion they are thoroughly
worthless and idle when brought forward for the purpose
for which they were used, yet they were of the most mate.
rial importance when we are to consider how the new
franchise is to be established. I feel too strongly attached
to the great principles of popular liberty not to consider
it absolutely necessary to fix the franchise in such a manner
that the great body of the people of Ireland may feel
that those representatives who come to this House in their
name really speak the opinions and represent the feelings
of the majority of the people.—( Cheers.) Unhappily it is
the misfortuee of Ire and—it is the misfurtuire entailed
on it by the inisgoveniment and misdeeds of foriner
times, that the great bulk of landed property in Ireland
is in the hands of persons divided by strong opinions and
prejudices from the majority of the population. I regard
that as an evil of the greatest megnitude in the present
state of Ireland ; but it is in vain that we have passed an
Irish Reform Bill, if, that being the state of things, we
now so frame a measure by which the whole political
power of that great country will be thrown into the hands
of a small minority, whose power has, for the last few
years, been put an end to, and which, if now again re-
stored, will be an evil still greater than its former exist-
ence.—( Ministerial cheers.) The interval which had oc-
curred, notwithstanding the many imperfections of the
system, and its many gross and glaring defects, would
make the evil of the restoration of ascendancy perfectly
intolerable. Sir, the state of Ireland now is calculated
to excite very serious apprehensions, and I, for one, do
not regard the scenes which have been passing in that
country during the last few months without very great
concern and alarm ; but I believe that none of the great
parties into which this country is divided are free
from great and serious blame for the existence
of that danger in Irelaad (Hear) I think
that great blame, if I may be permitted to say
so, is attributable to Hon, Gentlemen opposite, who are in,
the habit of holding language and supporting measures
which must be highly distasteful to the great body of the
people of Ireland. I think, on the other hand, that great
and serious blame is due to those who for many months,
have been repeating to the people of Ireland that the in-
tention of the British House of Commons . , assenting in
its several stages to a measure of which the professed ob.
ject was to emend the tribunal for registering elt•ctors—
that the real intention of the majority of the British House
of Con:mous, in passing that measure, was to disfranchise
the yeople. of Ireland. Great and serious responsiblity
was incurred by those who represented in this light to the
people of Ireland the act of the majerity of the House
of Commons in adopting a Bill, all the pars ca which had,
at different times, been proposed by her Majesty's Ministers.
He could not help thinking that those representations of
the nature of the measure they were last year discussing,
had had a great effect in creating in the minds of the
people of Ireland, the great majority of whom could not
he expected to be able to weigh the off cts of the different
clauses of an Act of Parliament, but must judge of the
effects likely to ty! produced from them by the represe.n.
winos of those in tibotif they placed corifidenuo...ho cottid.