The Sun.
London, England, 1847-01-20 00:00:00

S

(ty-%7
,`r• .

~+~(
r = ~,~

4-!'

that he had given up sarcasm and had taken to
should recollect that oiliness of language, and sit,
pression, would not answer for soundness of argum a. -- s--:---
should mention that even the polish of a shielo wo, _a dfesfspie-: tt:4 NY
,
when oil and vinegar dropped upon it. The Hon. Gentleman
had styled the Irish landlords as beggars, but they only de-
manded justice. The Han. Member for Bath had alluded to
history, and the King of France, as he called him, had he read
the speech of that King ? if he had, he would see that the
French Government, although not feeding the population, heed
taken care to obtain a supply of food for the people from Coe
ports of Odessa, and other parts where corn was to be obtain ed.
Why was it that the Government of this country had not, raw,
taken the same step with regard to the purchase of food. In
the port of Odessa there was 150,000 quarters of wheat left
behind by the French, why was it that there were only six
British vessels in that port? It was a gross neglect upor I the
part of the Government. There was also plenty of ecirn at
New York waiting for ships, none were to be obtained. The
Government had their experimental fleet sailing ahoy it, and
their pennons floating with every breeze, why did they not
freight them with the precious cargoes of food for the sotering
people. Government had proposed to admit molasses for the
purposes of distillation, why did they not couple
with that measure a prohibition to use barley? The Hon.
Member for Bath had thought fit to attack the Hon. Member
for Dublin, who was absent ; he (Mr. Grattan) had no doubt
th it he would be able to defend himself from the charges
brought against him. He would, however, tell the Hon.
Member for Bath that there was a great party in Ireland, who
were handed together to remove tf, e cause of universal misery
and distress which had sunk all classes, and demoralised the
country; and while we are engaged in this noble cause we
regret to find Hon. Gentlemen, who, like the Hon. Member
for Bath, came like an evil spirit to blast all their endeavours,
and to sow dissension among their ranks by the introduction of
angry topics of religious diff ,rences. He trusted that the
Hon. Men ber for Dublin would let his constituents know that
the Irish Members, as a body, were all agreed that they would
not follow the advice, and !east of all the example, of the Hon.
Member for Bath ; and that all considerations of party are
lost in the great national calamity.—( Cheers.) As
an Irish Member he deprecated :he Government of his
country on principles of political economy, he flung such prin..
ciples to the wind When starvation and death were staring
the people in the face, were they to die upon principles of
political economy ? The commissariat officers had become
embued with those principles, and had gene so far as to distri-
bute quotation. from Adam Smith and from the Bible. The
letters of Mr. Trevellian were better adapted for some of
Scott's historical romances than for the Government of any
nation. The employment which the Government had given
under the Labour-rate Act was a mockery. In the county of
Mayo the wages of the labourer was only 4d. a day, and meal
was now 3s. Sd. per stone—a quantity equivalent to the sup-
port of a family for two days. The Government, by their
acts, were employing officers of the army in distributing a
halfpennyworth of bread and some treacle to the poor unfor-
tunate devils who were starving in Ireland. He hoped, if the
union was to continue, that it would not simply be a federal or
a parchment union, but a union of sentiment, having for its
object the promotion of the benefit of the whole nation.
Mr. D. BROWNE said he should not have risen to address
the house but for the speech of the Hon. Member for Bath,
who had given way to the ascerbity of his waspish disposition,
and maligned the landlords of Ireland. He trusted, however,
that his sentiments would not be responded to by any Hon-
Member, so that Ireland might not have that addition to her
present affliction. The Hon. Member for Bath had reproached
the Irish landlords with being beggars. But if they were beg-
gars, they had been reduced to their present condition in con-
sequence of the evil government of their country by the
English Parliament, and if they would restore to
the people of Ireland their own native Legislature, and those
funds which they had contributed towards the liquidation of the
natonal debt of England, they would be ready to provide out
of those funds for the present contingency, and place Ireland
in a position which would prevent any English legislator from
stating that they were obliged to approach the Parliament in era
attitude of supplication. He was sorry that the Hon. Member
for Limerick ( Mr. S. O'Brier.) had disturbed the unanimity
which had subsisted between the friends of Ireland ;
bat he trusted that neither the Government nor
the Noble Lord at its head, nor the party of
which the Noble Lord opposite (Lord G. Bentinck)
was also the head, nor the party represented by the Hon. Ba-
ronet the Member for Tamworth would join in the senti-
ment—that Ireland was a curse to this country.—( Hear.) He
agreed in one part of the argument of the Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. S. O'Brien), namely. that the Government ought to
have called the Parliament together two or three months ago,
to consider the state of Ireland ; for, although the means
within the adoption of the Government might last year have been
sufficient to meet the contingency, it was insufficient at the
present period. There must, however, be energy against the
landed gentry of Ireland. They must devote some of their
large rentals to stimulate the industry of the people
by providing for their profitable employment—( Hear,
hear) and the first act passed by the British
Legislature with respect to Ireland, ought to be one
entitling a right of the tenants to relief from the landowners,.
on whose property they lived. It was the best tax he thought
which could be imposed upon the landed proprietary, but in-
dependently of this he admitted that at this time there was
occasion for the Government to extend a helping hand to
Ireland.

,
atire, but heir—
kkness of_ ex.

Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE wished, as a landlord, to ad-
dress a few observations to the House, but in the outset he
wished to warn Irish Members that if they took the Hon.
Member for Bath to their bosom they would mind him like the
" toad in the ear of Eve"— (Laughter)—and although the
Hon. Member for Mayo (Jr. D. Browne) deprecated the at-
tack of the Hon. Member for Bath, he followed up his state-
ment, by adding, that the landlords of Ireland bad neglected
their duty. He (Mr. B. Osborne) had done his best to
mould his conduct like that of his neighbours.

Mr. D. BROWNE said he spoke of the past.
Mr. B. OSBORNE thought it unnecessary to refer to the
conduct of Irish Members during the past. They were an im-
proving body, which would be proved if the Hon. Gentleman
came to move for an account of the many acres of turnips
raised, the number of duels fought, and the number of ploughs
set to work in the county of Mayo.—( Hear, and laughter.)
They had the prosperity of their county at heart. The speecis
of the Queen, which would be transmitted to Ireland by the
next post, was certainly of a cheering character. as they
were told that disorder had been suppressed by the military
and the police; whereas Ireland was like a beleagured city
without food, which, he apprehended, charity of the benevolent
could not adequately have provided against. These outrages
were only to be repressed by pouring in food. The Chancellor
of the Exchequer had stated yellow meal could be reduced to
10d. per stone, but yet it was seliing in Ireland at 2s. 6d. and.
2s. 10.1. per stone. He was at a loss to know why the Noble
Lord did not issue an order in Council four months ago sus-
pending the corn-laws. It was too late to oper. the ports now,
as France had anticipated them. It was too late to do so irs
January, when the people were st..rving. Something ought to
be done immediately to pour food into Ireland, or Ire-
land would become one vast charnel-house The Dean
of Cashel had stated that 5,000 had died from starvation.
The Speech he considered was not a speech conveying the real
sentiments of the Government, but of some political recusants
in the Treasury who pulled the strings.
Sir R. INGLIS said that he was anxious to say a few words
in answer to the speech of the Hon. Member who had lately
addressed the House. He did so, because he solemnly .be-
lieved that the charge made against his friend, Mr. Treveyllan,
was one which proceeded from total ;gnorance upon the sub-
ject. Mr Treveyllan had been described as inimical to Ire-
land. Now, to his (Sir R. Inglis) certain knowledge, it he had
a fault it was that of being too partial to that country.—(Hear.)
That gentleman had taken upon himself, not only official, but
personal duties in order the better to promote those measures
which were considered of a beneficial character.—( Hear.)
tl The lion. Member for Mayo began to speak with some appre-
hension that the expression of Ireland's being a curse to Eng-
land, would have a most injurious effect upon the people of
that country, and he appeale.. to my Noble Friend the Member
for Lynn, and m Hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth,
and my Noble Frieud the Prime Minister, and hoped that
they would not concise in such $ sentiment. His own memory
did not inform him that such an expression was made use of,
and he had asked three Hon. Members their recollection of the
fact, and they all agreed with his.
Mr. R. D. BRO WNE.—You misunderstand me. I totally
deny it.
Sir H. INGLIS.—WeII then we must leave the difference;
to be settled elsewhere.---(Great laughter.) The Hon. tlen-
tleman then continued, it certainly was not the most courteous
method of contradicting him which had been taken; for it was
open to the Member for Mayo, when he had concluded, to
make a formal disavowal. And he protested against the ow
of such intemperate language.—( Hear, hear.) He hcped that
the Hon. Member for the University of Dublin, and the
Member for Meath, did not represent the concentrated wisdom
of the united Irish party, ft r he could not hope that much
good would result from such a ut.iun.—( Hear, hear.) He
entirely deprecated the principle upon which this claim for Irish
relief was advocated. It was a claim made upon their justice,
and not upon their sympathy, it was a claim of right, and not
of compassion, it is a claim of so much debt of pounds, shillings,
and pence, and not of charity. He dented the claim
thus made altogether, while he would cordially
recognise it. if it were made on the principle
of Christian feeling. The hon. Member for Rath bad made
a speech, which was full of his accustomea sarcasm and acute
reasoning, which, however, in his opinion, was not founded
on the soundest principles. He regarded the claim as asyste-
matic attempt to impose upon the people of England, Wales,
and Scotland, the exclusive burden of supporting the people of
Ireland ; and his speech served to vary the uniformity of the
debate, for the first seven speeches might have adorned the old
Parliament House of Ireland as a specimen of entire attention
to Irish affairs. Not one word had been said of another part
of the empire, which had been suffering equally, and with
the most enduring patience.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
He thanked Members on both sides for that cheer, as it re-
cognised the claim of Scotland upon their attention. The
people of that country, it was true, had not a united Scotch
party, they were patient in their own country, and were not
clamorous out of it ( Hear, hear)—and he trusted the they
would not be forgotten. tie fully agreed that the question of
the marriages in Spain was not one in which the Secretary
would be able to carry the people of England with him.
butH?
considered that the treaty of Utrecht had been violated,
its violation, in his opinion, was net a just causet afot
the people of England in a war. He belie
the intention of any of the eontreaeting
Filth should ever sit on the
that any descendant of Philip
th'
„fora the expression of
rihtamtw at
es na
toys
throne, which intention was evident
direction, and therefore he cou-
needle, eternally fixed in_
oneltresht had been violated. Yet,
Philip, who said that that treaty should bertvleiikdees the point of a
sidered that the Treaty of .
he wounitdwaorldinbestajtue:iutibdat
ibneintdoinvointacotz
:aoitd:t.hrter,
yhsaaitumte.i.
He would say one word
ietimGe-,vernme
war.—( Hear, hear.)
with reference to the subject of Cracow,
He could n
with the Noble Member fir Lynn that, because illumination. o t agree
bhyadthtaekternoopplsacoef
the E
there,
manpderthor of
taf at
Austria,
utsimtreia7l, with the certainty,enitwasoccupied
als e that the two nearest Powers were ready to throw their
armies into it, that the people of Cracow were so degraded as
to rejoice in their degradation. He trusted that the evils
which had overtaken Ireland, and which were inevitable,
would, by the mercy of God, be turned to good account, and
ultimately advance the interests of the people who had borne
their sufferings in such an admirable manner.—(Cheers. )
Lord JOHN MANNERS ventured to offer a few obser-
vations to the House. He would offer a suggestion or two tO
her Majesty's Ministers since they were so desirous of bene-
fiting the people of Ireland, who were suffering so severely
from the misfortunes which had overtaken them. The Go-
vernment proposed to suspend the am .11 duty now levied in
corn, and also to su-pend the operation of the navigation
laws. Now he was of opinion that such a course would not
lead to much practical good. It must be known by every
Member of that House that many other states of Europe
were suffering from a deficiency of food, and had actually
prohibited the exportation of cern. He thought the
Government of this country ought to have done
something of a similar kind. Within the last
ten days he had learned that no less than twenty-seven vessels
had been freighted in this country with English corn at the
very time when a great portion of the English people were
suffering from a deficiency. Such a state of things should not
be permitted to continue. Beyond these observations he
would content himself with calling the attention of the House
to a despatch of Mons. Gutzot in reference to the Spanish
marriage, which was dated Feb. 27, 1846. The despatch was
in reference to the candidates for the hand of the Queen of
Spain, in which it was stated that the Son of Don Carlos woo
out of the question. In another passage it is further stated
that the French Government had dear everything in

Its. power to render the son of Don Carlos possible.
Would the House then believe that till the 26th
June following the French Government, took no
steps to forward the policy which had since been carriedout.
in June. 1846, the French Government submitted to the Mar-
quis of Villa Franca, six propositions on the subject, promising
the influence of the King of the French in favour of the Conde
de Montemolin, Yet the French Government had taken the
course which was so well known to them all, though the Conde
de Montemolin had shown every disposition to do whatever was
in his power to effect such an arrangement as would terminate
the struggles and bloodshed that had hitherto characterised
that he unhappy country. One thing would state to the
House,
t hat it warfare and strife again distracted Spain, the world
would know that it did not rest with that much injured Prince,
but would be charged to those Ministers who had not hesitated
to pursue the policy they had done with no other object than to
gratify one fatal ambition of the Napoleon of Peace.—( Hear. )
Lord JOHN RUSSELL, on rising, was received with loud
cheers. He said—Sir, in rising to address the House, on the
present occasion, and during a period of great calamity and dis-
tress, I must express my opinion that I think the disposition
shown to consider not only the extent and character of the ca-
lamity, but the measures that are necessary to meet it, without
party violence or blame, is such as to render that which, under
any circumstances, would be a most difficult question, some-
what less difficult than it would otherwise have been. I cannot
wonder at the observations which have fallen from the Hon.
Member for Limerick, when he takes her Majesty's Govern-
ment sn severely to task on the policy they have pursued, be-
cause the opinions of that Hon. Gentleman are quite the oppo-
site of theirs. If his opinion was well founded, then the
Government has been guilty of great neglect ; but 1
maintain that the policy of the Hon. Member for Limerick,
supported as it had been by the Noble Lord the Member for
Lynn (Lord George Bentinck), is a policy which no Govern-
ment should undertake. It is a policy that would lead to cer-
tain failure, and tried by the fairest test would lead to greater
evils than those which existed. A greater number of deaths
from famine would take place than had yet occurred. What
would be the effect if the opinion was to get abroad that the
Government of this country wante I to purchase food, that they
were about to become bus ers of grain in the marke s of Europe
in order to feed the people of Ireland. In the first. instance,
as soon as the intention of Government was deciared—as de-
clared and known it would be—there would be an end of all
private enterprise, of all application of the capital, and means,
and skill of the mercantile classes ; all traffic in grain would be
abandoned to a Government that had shown itself
so presumptuous—(Hear, hear)—in having the orders of the
Government coming in, with but a limited supply to meet
the demand, what would be the price asked when it was
known that the Engli'sh Government had become purchasers ?
The Noble Lord talks of an increase from 3s. to 9s. on Indian 1
corn, but this was nothing compared to what the rise in price
would take place then.—( Hear, hear.) But suppose the Go-
vernment undertook to supply the people of Ireland, they could
not stop there. They must undertake all the retail trade, and
supply every one that was in need of food. We have heard of
the staff of officers now required, in connexion with the Board
of Public Works ; but what is that staff, great as
it is, compared to what it would be, if we un-
dertook the retail trade for the supply of the people
of Ireland with food.—( Hear, hear.) He would
further be expected to supply provisions at what were con-
sidered fair prices, and under prime cost. What would be the
consequences of should a proceeding to the rest of the popula-
tion of the United Kingdom ? Why, we would be robbing
them, as the price of food must of necessity be enormously
raised in England and Scotland. The labouring poop eof
other parts of the United Kingdom would thus be made to
suffer, and they would have good reason to turn round and ask
us why we had thus acted —why we should fly in the
face of all principles of political economy in favour of the
starving Irish people alone, and why we should not give the
labouring, classes of this country, as well as the people of Ire-
land, the advantage of food at a fair price.—( Hear, hear.)
Some Hon. Gentleman had said that the trade in different
parts of Ireland had been interfered with, by the provisions
which the Government had made for the supply of the people,
and there were some instances in which it was possible that
such might have been the case. There were 21 and 22 places
west of the Shannon, where they had established depots; but
they had chosen places where the provisions of the Govern-
ment would interfere as little as possible with private trade;
and he had reason to know tbat in those places where depOts
bad been established, several persons who intended to set up
shops, had given up the design, as soon as they learned the
intentions of Government, on the supposition that they would be
altogether unsuecessful. 200,000 quarters of corn could not
be issued into the country without disturbing the market, but
then they had to feed the people of Ireland. There was cer-
tainly one point which arose out of the measure which had been
passed during the last ses'ion of Parliament to which there was
considerable ob:ection—that was, to employ the people under
the Board of Works. N., man was more sensible than he was
of the objeesiens in employing, the poor on unproductive works,
for the matter was daily under his attention, and he only men-
tioned the facts now, in sailer to show the difficulties under
which they laboured in elaVating the effects of the great ca-
lamity which hail bet-Alen Ireland, and he must at the same
time say that the principle was a sound one. 'Their object was
to employ the people on useful works, and the question was
not whether they should be so employed, but the means by
which they should be so engaged. The way in which they
attemptedeo meet the case was not by throwing the people into
workhousis, but by giving them employment. In this there
was nothing which was at all novel, nothing which was
not usual in the endeavour to obviate distress without
disturbing industry in this country. It was a common course
in this country when distress prevailed, to employ the people
in breaking stones—not that there was any demand for broken
atones, but that the labourer might be empire ed upon a Work in
which the labour was the hardest, and the reward eas the
worst, until more permanent enaployment could be obtained.
As soon as a change came over circumstances it was fogad
labourers entered into private employment, and the rates were
relieved. But, in Ireland, he was sorry to confess, that such
was not the case, for there the labouring population found
the market and the public works the best, instead of the ia ore.
they could find for their exertions ; and that. consequently,
when other opportunities arose the public fund was not re-
lieved. He mentioned this, also, in order to show the diffi.
culties with which they had to contend. In erni,loyin;
300,000 or 400,000 persons, it was necessary to employ also a
number of persons to superintend them ; arid many of those
persons vviire unquestionably people of objoctionahla character,
yet it was necessary to have them ; anti he could not think
that in the employment of 470,000 persons, representing, he
conceived, a population of not leas than 2,000,000, that this
was a draw ha k at all to be taken into consideration. He
found by the last week's account, that no less a sum than
158,000/. hail been paid for work during that week. He quite
agreed with his II .n Friend, near bun, that this calamity was
to be looked upon as a national or general calamity, and not
only as a ca;smi•y that had befallen Ireland. No mea-ures
which the Government could adopt, would prevent severe
suffering and mortality in many peaces. Seeine that there were
not the ordinary resource- there which :hey had in this country;
that they had no means on which to fall back on, the failure of
th'eir staple food, he could not see that any measures which the
Government could propose. would reach the nature of the
present calamity. With regard to all they had done, he con-
sidered that they' alone were to be held accountable, and they
did not consent that arty of their sub-ordinate officers should
bear any part of the responsibility. Mr. Trevellyan hail been
alluded to in the course of the debate, and of that tiller tie
had to state that. he acted with the greatest inteldgence, judg-
ment, and indefatigable, and untiring zeal, both with regent to
the orders he rec eyed, and the orders he transmitted.
therefore, censure were to he passed let them bear the blame,
not him. It hid been said with regard to the proposed sus-
pension of the duties on the impartation of grain, and the
alteration in the navigation laws, that these duties should have
been suspended in November last, and not now. In reference
to that he had to observe, that that subject was carefully consi-
dered at that time, and it was considered unwi-e to ree-irt to
such a course. He hail done so, acting upon the advice of the
Government in Ireland, avid of every one if intelligence con-
nected with that country, who were all of opinion that serious
injury would then result by the withdrawal from it of those
who nceiipied seats in both Houses of the Legislature. Then
with regard to the re-aver:ailing of Parliament, it bet ame a
matter for consideration whether the distress hal reached such
a height as to demand so unusual a course. The ditty than was
not. 164. or 14s. per qua ter, as during the previous year, and
although he thought it right t i recommend now the su=pension
of the present duties, he did not think that the reduction of
price, which would result from this, would be any thing consi-
derable. With respect to the supplies from America, he did
not think tha- they would be accelerated in their course
to this country from that cause, and in consequence of what
hail arrived, prices in two or three weeks had fallen to 62..
For these reasons, and seeing that the benefit to he obtained
would be so slight, they did not consider it advisable to call
Parliament together till the present time. They did not
think that the effect would have been such as to warrant so ex-
traordinary a course, or that the inconvenience attending it
would have been commensurate will the advantage to be
gained by it. With regard to some other points, there were
a few to which he would briefly advert. The Hon. Member
for Bath had alluded to the Nlontpensier alliance, and gave it as
his opinion that it would have been desirable to have maintained a
good understanding, and not to have interfered with the affairs
of France. He should have been quite content to await the
discussion of this subject till the correspondence of the Noble
Lord had been laid before the House, but he could not assent
to the doctrine laid down by the Hon. Member, that the
British Government had no right to interfere in such matters.
This, however, he knew, that if serious injury occurred to this
country from a cause of this nature, public opinion would
blame, and blame deservedly, the Ministers of the Crown by
whose, neglect it had been produced. He could not bat regard
the matter as one of the most se, ions moment, and deserving of
the greatest consideration, and though he was of opinion that the
attempts made by Louis XIV and Napoleon to bring about
the union of kingdoms by such means rather tended to an
opposite effect, still he thoueht that to obviate dangers that
might possibly arise to the interests of the country from such
a source was an object not unworthy of the attention of statesmen.
The other subject to which he would turn was the marriage of
the Infanta of Spain, and he wished to speak upon this subject
because it had been reported, and was industriously set ab tut,
that it was the desire of the Government to advance Prince
Leopold of Saxe Coburg as a claimant to the throne of Spain.
He did not know the young Prince entertained any wish upon
that subject, but he had felt it his duty to give an intimation
to his Sovereign that it was not advisable to support Prince
Leopold as a candidate to the hand of the Queen of Spain, and
he must say that his Sovereign had acceded, in a most gracious
manner, to the force of his representation. He was the more
Particular on this point because it had been asserted that
the desire of the British Govarnmen to advance a candidate to
th, throne of Spain, in consequence of the impression that
advra?" a wish on the part of the French Royal Family to
so %candidate of their own ; and this was made to appear
as the proper •
this
proposition of the transaction. He did not conceive th it
or
that
hewas entertained at that moment by Prince
Leopold,
had recommended the course which had been
pursued, because he
con-
cerned in the future internal
t
believed that we ought not to be at all
government of Spain. His Hon
Friend the Member fry University of Oxford seemed dis-
posed to say that at the De nt moment we ought to refrain
from interfering or expressing neitgwany opinion at all. But he
(Lord John ilussell) thou
tno:ned frank
t and more be-
coming
to the character of this nationl'thes position, to state
the objections which he entertained tomarriageor of the
Court
of
fiese reas
Infanta of Spain to the Duke de Montpensier.
eons they had stated their objections to the France,
because he perfectly agreed that with regard to these matters
provided the Prince who remained in Spain was not on
the vs one
could object
;upituindcyleeatrhgezuhuniiltstesidt tthheutt
whom treaty, that
they could not complain
t ramoan importance to this
of Spain must be considered of pa
kingdom. Even those
who most disputed the Treaty °
Utrecht admitted that one and the same Prince ought
U not t.
. The
e could b e no doubt
reign bath in Fiance and Spain
of that. For his own part he wouia shaey that it Vias with
found himself
the most sincere regret that
opposed in opinion to what had been done merely by the
Government of France. He did, however. feel how desirable
it was that this country should be on the best terms of friend-
ship with France This country hail never done anything
which was calculated to disturb that understanding. He sn-
cerely lamented that by no fault cf theirs a separation of good
feeling had taken place between them with regard to the late
marriage.—(Cheers.) With , egarei to other subjects re-
lating to foreign affairs—the extinction of the free sate if
Cracow—he thought there was so little difference of opinion
in that House, or anywhere else, that he really felt it
unnecessary to say, then, that it seemed as if from the first
partition of Poland to that unholy act which was, perhaps,
the most to he cieslemned of any act amongst the nations in
the history of modern Europe—from that fatal day misfortune