The Sun.
London, England, 1840-03-10 00:00:00

NOTICES OF MOTIONS.

An HoN. MEMBER on the Opposition side of
the House gave notice that on the bringing up the re-
port of the Elections Committee, he should move for
leave to bring up a clause, subjecting persons giving
false evidence before Committees of the House to the
pains and penalties of perjury.
Capt. PECHELL gave notice that in the Com-
mittee on the Union Workhouses Bill, he should move
a clause exempting hospitals from rates and taxes. .

Mr. BRO;FHERT.ON moved that leave of ab-
sence be given to Mr. John Jervis to attend the As-
sizes.—Agreed to.
IRISH MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS BILL.
Lord MORPETH moved the third reading of the
Irish Municipal Corporations Bill.
On the question being put,

Mr. HOME rose and said he wished to ask the
Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland whether the pro-
vision relating to the pilotage of the bay of Galway was
to be a definitive one, or whether it would be in the
power of the Lord Lieutenant to make such alterations
in it as might hereafter be found convenient ?
Lord MORPETH replied it could be changed, if
necessary, on a future occasion.
Sir G. SINCLAIR rose to oppose the third read-
ing of the Bill. He had not of late taken much
part in the various debates connected with the state
of Ireland. He felt it his duty, however, to
come forward on the present occasion, and to oppose
_ _

himself to those Hon. Friends around him, with whom
he had always had the honour and the happiness to
act. He believed that Ireland could never he happy
till there was a repeal of the Union carried in it—not
of the Union between that country and England, but
of the union between it and the Papal See. He was
impelled to address the House from a persuasion—
confirmed by an ominous prophecy from a high quarter
—that the Protestant interests of Ireland, with which
those of the empire at large are inseparably allied, were
menaced by the greatest danger. He found in that
country the Catholics bold, confident and organised, while
the Protestant party there were divided and depressed.
Each victory achieved by the one party encouraged the
prosecution of some new attempt by the other. The
potent " screw" of the " six millions" argument
was triumphantly wielded by the Roman Catholics
now, as the " six members "argument was formerly by
some imperious boroughmonger, to wring fresh conces-
sions from yielding Prime Ministers. And the Roman
Catholics seemed justified, by the result of every
experiment, in opeiily telling the British legisla-
ture, " Because we are six millions we are en-
titled to have whatever we want—to demolish
whatever we dislike." The Church Temporalities Bill
(as we understood) bad been wrung from fear rather

than yielded with good-will—a fear produced by a state
of things arising from the culpable negligence of pre-
ceding Governments, who had not upheld, as they
ought to have done, the supremacy of the law ;
and the Act, though unwillingly assented to by the
Church, was in reality an act of sacrilegious cha-
racter, which only purchased a hollow and precarious
truce, and led Protestants to neglect the defence of
their not yet alienated rights, and their not yet confis-
catt d property. A system of conciliation and compromise
never proved beneficial in the long run. In conformity
with the wish of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member
for Tamworth, for whose judgment he had the highest
respect, he had abstained from forcing the House to a
division at any earlier stage of the Bill, and was un-
willing to deprive the Right Hon. Baronet of the credit
of an experiment, of which he not only doubted the
success, but questioned the wisdom.—(Hear, hear.)
His own opinion, however, remained unmitigated
and unchanged ; and though the amendments of
the Lords might remove much that was objection-
able, and his conviction was that by forcing such a
Bili on Ireland, the House would be conferring a
sword, not establishing a peace—would be erecting a
tyranny, not giving a blessing. He believed the mea-
sure would be received with jealousy and apprehension
by the great body of the gentlemen of Ireland, that it
would at the same time be received with indifference by
nineteen-twentieths of those " millions" for whose be-
nefit it was pretended to be designed. He should never
cease to regret that the Legislature had not exercised
the wiser discretion of only abolishing corporations, and
thus leaving all parties on a perfect equality, which
was all that until lately the Roman Catholics them-

selves had required. But he observed with sorrow and
surprise that the demands of Catholics were in the ra-
tio of their power ; that, as they themselves had boasted,
they cajoled us when weak, and coerced us when strong.
And what was now sought was not an annihilation of
abuse, but a transfer of supremecy.—( Hear, hear.)
There was an annual, he might say, a perennial argu-
ment of the Noble Lord opposite—it was, that the Eng-
lish and the Scotch having obtained Municipal Reform,
he thought it ought to be granted to the Irish. He did
not see the strength of that argument, because what
was the state of Ireland ?—why, three parts of its popu-
lation were Catholics, and the Protestant Church of the
country bad been denounced by the Hon. Member for
Dublin in no measured terms. He was determined, by
every meansin his power, to express his hostility to the Bill,
because he believed its tendency to be to strengthen
1 the hands of the Catholic faction in Ireland, and its de-
sign to overthrow the venerated Establishment of the
Church. It was his firm belief that the state of Pro-
testant feeling throughout Ireland had never been fairly
represented in that House, and that the statements upon
which the Bill was founded were without any foundation.
His disappointment at the result of the Roman Catho-
lic Relief Bill was even greater than that of his Right
Hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth. When he
was first elected to a seat in that House, in 1811, he
announced himself the humble advocate of the Catholic
claims, ani he had renounced all hope of personalag-
grandisement by voting in favour of the motion ofN. r G rat
tan, and he had now to express his regret that not one of
the expectations he had entertained with regardHe the
working to e
working of that measure had been realised.
re-
garded this Municipal Bill as another concession, on the
part of her Majesty's Government to Papal influence.
He believed there would be no finality to their
concessions, 'What her Majesty's Government said was,
, llr
e will concede nothing which you will allow
us to withhold i but we will withhold nothing that you
will insist on our conceding." The leaving office on the
part of the Government in last May was cheered
with delight by every Protestant—their return to
office was hailed with rapture by all the Papists
and Precursors in Ireland. He owned it was quite
useless to entertain the least expectation of
preventing this Bill passing into a law. It would be
sent up to the House of Lords, and would receive those
amendments that were rejected last year by the House
of Commons, but which after making a few wry faces
1 her Majesty's Government were willing to adopt. He
1 bad thought it right not to a:low such a Bill ti,s that

EVENING EDITION. ,

before the House to pass, without entering his pro:.
test against it. Her Majesty's Ministers boaved,
of the tranquillityof Ireland, but that tranquillity was \ •
like their own consistency, only temporary and fleeting
It was a Bill which would tend to increase Papal in

fluenee—it was a Bill for investing D. O'Connell; Eq..

a Member of that House, with the office of Lord
Mayor of Dublin—( Hear, and laughter)—and enabling.
him to appoint Irish agitators to similar offices through-
out the country. He rcgrttted that his Right. Hon.

and Hon. Friends around him had thought it necessary
to descend from their high ground on this Bill ; they
would find that they had not conciliated their opponents,
while many of their friends had withdrawn their confi-
dence from them. By the false step they had taken
they would have their feelings hurt by seeing the Lord
Mayor of Dublin proceed in procession from the
Mansion-house to the Mass-house, and at the banquet
which would follow the inauguration they wodd have
proposed as a toast, " Success to the Pope, and may lie
speedily rule over an entire people of United Irishmen ;"
they would have " The glorious, pious, and immortal
memory" of the appropriation clause--(Laughter)—and
the Sovereign health would be proposed as her prede-
cessor's, Queen Mary, had been—" The Queen, and
may she soon become a nursing mother to the Holy
Church"—(Renewed laughter)—and no doubt they
would have " the health of Sir R. Pod. Lord Stanley,
Sir J. Graham, and the Recorder of Dublin," without
whose aid we could not have assembled here." Ac-
tuated by these feelings, he would move that the Bill
be read a third time that day six months,

Mr, E. TENNENT seconded the motion. He
believed that by a much less expensive mode of
proceeding, all the objects proposed by the Bill would be
carried into effect, and they would thereby get rid of
all the turmoil, vexation, and strife, which it Was cal.
culated to produce. A great mistake had been corn.
mitted when the English Municipal Bill was before

that House, in not sweeping away all the antiquated
systems which it embodied, and without which the
municipal affairs of the towns and boroughs of England
might stiil be properly conducted. He believed that in
Belfast, Dublin, Clonrnel, Galway, Sligo, and other
towns in Ireland, the municipal affairs were under the

management of a local board, and notwithstanding the

present Bill, he was satisfied that their affairs would

still be conducted by the intervention of the same system.
He believed that the Bill would be productive of the
worst effects, and as a proof of that he might refer to a
statement in one of the Dublin papers. The Hon.
Member was about to read the extract when be was in-
terrupted by

'Ffe SPEAKER, who stated that the Hon. ?Mem-
ber was out of order in attempting to read a news-

paper.

Mr. E. TENN ENT said he was quite aware that
he would be out of order if he produced a newspaper in
the House and read it, but as the part which he had
intended to read was only an extract, he submitted he
was perfectly in order.

Mr. HU 'ME said that if the rule laid down by the
Chair was strictly interpreted, it would interfere most
materially with discussion in that House.
The SPEAKER had always understood the rule to
be this that, unless in a case of breach of privilege. a
Member was not entitled to read from a nmspaper, but
he could make any extracts provided ho did nut read
them from the paper itself..

Sir R. PEEL thought they would be drawing the
rule too strictly if they laid It down that a newspaper
containing certain information could not be read. He
would suppose that a paper contained the resolutions of
a public meeting t,iimportance ; was it to be said that that
was not to be referred to in that House ? He could not
see any reason why so strict a course should be adopted.

Lord J. RUSSELL said he believed that the rule
of the House was as the Speaker had laid it down, and
that the reading of newspapers, or of any printed
papers not regularly before the House, was not in order.
At the same time reference to sucb papers had often
been allowed. He believed that was contrary to the
strict orders of the House, and yet a deviation from
them had often taken place, and might, he believed be
lett in a great measure to the discretion of Honourable
Members themselves. A Member of the House was
at liberty to make those extracts parts of his speech,
and he thought that the rules of the House on the
subject, should not be too closely followed.
Sir R. PEEL said that a correspondence between
Mr. Fox and Mr. Forsyth had been published in the
newspapers the other day, and he thought it would be
right that Hon. Members might read that correspond-
ence, as being of an important nature, for the purpose
of inquiring of the Government whether it had really
taken place. _

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that some years ago
an Attorney-General was reading a passage from a
speech delivered at a trig'., when it was declared that
such a proceeding was contrary to the Orders of the
House. But he had asked permission of the House
to continue the reading of the extract, and no objection
to his doing so was made.
Mr. W ARBURToN said he was sure that, within
his recollection, extracts from newspapers had been
read in the House ; and he had often heard the Hon.
and Learned Member for Bandon amuse his side of the
I House by passages from the speeches of the Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin.

Mr. LAM BTON had seen such a course adopted
at least fifty times.
Mr. E. TENNENT then proceeded to read an
extract from an Irish paper, to show that if the
Municipal Corporation Bill were passed, all power
would be confined to Roman Catholics in Belfast.
He felt it to be his duty, believing this Bill would be
most detrimental to the peace and well-being of Ire-
land, and wholly unsuitable to meet her present wants,
to support the amendment that the Bill be read a third
time that day six months.
Mr. SHAW regretted that his Hon. Friends had
proposed such an amendment, but he hoped they would
not press it to a division.—(Hear, hear.) If they did
so he was certain that the conduct of those who voted
against them would be misrepresented. He would
glen be placed in a situation of some embarassment ,
yet he must do that which under all circumstances he
thought was most consistent with the course he
had hitherto taken, and that would be to vote
against them.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He certainly.
did not approve of the Bill in its present form, and if
the question were whether or not the Bill in its present
form should pass into a law, he would not vote for
the third reading. But his Hon. Friend did not put his
opposition to the Bill upon those amendments for which
he (Mr. Shaw) contended, yet he was not prepared to
sacrifice substance to form, and the practical question
which they had then to decide was whether or not the
Bill should be sent to the other House, in order to be
amended there. After the declarations which had
been made in both Houses of Parliament by the
leaders of the Conservative party, he should think it
unfair for any person. unless he had dissented from
those declarations at the time, to free himself from their
implied obligation, especially one who had taken so pro-
minent a part in these discussions as himself. But he
did not wish to rest his support of the course which
he meant to take on such narrow ground. And he
wag bound to say, that even if he were free from
that obligation (which he did not think that he was),
still, upon the whole, he thought it better that this Bill
should pass, amended, as he believed it would be, than
that the Irish Corporations should remain as they were
at present. He had heard from the opponents of the
Bill no proposition for a substitute. And as Prote3t-
antism bad been much spoken of on the subject, he
would say this, that attached as he was to Protestantism,
he did not believe that these Corporations, in their pre-
sent form, would promote the interests of Protestantism.
because they were in the hands of the violent and extreme
parties who prejudiced rather than advanced the cause
or those interests. Under all these circumstances, if
his Hon. Friend persisted in dividing the House be must
vote against it.
Colonel PE RCEVAL wished to arrest the course
of this pernicious measure, and should therefore '
support the amendment. None of these amendments,
which even his R;ght Hon. Friend the Recorder of
Dublin had considered necessary, had been carried.
The Bill would take the government of the corpora-
ticnr out of the bands of those who were friendly to the
connection with England and to the institutions of the
country, and put it into the hands of those who desired
to overthrow these institutions and to destroy the Eng-
lish connection. It was true that the Bill would be purified
of much of its dross in another place, but no change
which it could undergo there would render it a good
measure. He was bound, however, as a Member of that
House to deal with the Bill as it then was, without
looking to any probable alteration elsewhere, and he
would therefore vote against the third reading.
Colonel MAXWELL would also vote against the
third reading. If he had been able to attend
when the question was put upon the second reading,
he would have voted against it.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw.
The House divided, when there appeared—
For the motion ...... ...... 182
For the amendment
Majority —l4B
The Bill was then read a third time.
On the motion that the Bill do pass,
Mr. PIGOTT moved a clause, providing for the
management of the Pipe Water establishment in the
City of Cork, to be inserted after Clause 121 of the Bill.
The Clause was agreed to, and ordered to be added
to the Bill by way of rider.
The Bill then passed.
PRIVILEGE.

Lord J. RUSSELL suggested the second reading
of his Printed Papers Bill, the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Member for Ripon (Sir E. Sugden) having intimated
that be wished to make a statement, which having been
made, perhaps the discussion might be adjourned till
Friday, when the Committee would come on.
The order of the day for the second reading having
been moved,
Sir E. SUGDEN said he should be very short, and
he wished first to explain that he voted against. the
bringing in of the Bill, not as much because be disap
proved of the Bill itself as because he could not get as
assurance that it was intended to put restrictions es

Mr. HUME was pleased to hear the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite admit that the sale of papers was
etseful to the public ; and he was quite satisfied that thou-
seeds of person: in the country had been deluded in this
espeet by Hon. Members speaking in the House on the
subject v,-ithout due consideration. He, for one, had had
greatrelief s'nce the sale of papers took place. He looked
:ith great jea.'ousy on any individuals being appointed
who was to have !.he power of excluding any thing they
thought proper from the Reports of Committees of that
House.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL congratulated the
House on the support that the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Member on Ripon was likeily to give to the Bill.
He concurred with the statements Which he had made
with respect to the printing of the papers, and he felt
convinced that if tne Right Hon. Gentleman would only
return to the Committee on Printing, of which he was
so useful a member, he would he received back z.753in
with the greatest satisfaction. With respect to th:"
clause regarding pending actions, he thought it most de-
sirable that it should be retained in the Bill if it could
be done without injustice. He admitted that it could
not be retained without injustice, if it proceeded upon
the statement of an excessive authority having
been exercised by the Officers of the House. He,
however, proceeded upon no such assumption,
but upon the fact that already vexatious ac-
tions had been brought, and were still pending.
There were numerous precedents for the enactment—
on many occasions bad actions been stopped by Act of
Parliament. In this case there had been no real in-
jury, and he would venture to say that the action.; v. ere
brought merely for the purposes of vexation, to harass
the House by involving it in a collision with the
Courts of Law. Such being the object, no injustice
would be done by the Bill.
Mr. DARBY did not rise to enter into the details of
the measure, he merely wished it to be understood t
he reserved to himself the right to oppose the Bill at a
future stage, unless something were done to secure par-
ties against libellous publications being made by order
of the House.

Sir 11.. PEEL said it had been charged against
those, who had been most strenuou3 in their support
of the privi:cges of the House, that they had
overlooked that which was due to private par-
ties. but Honourable Members would see that
that charge was unfounded, by a reference to the re-
commenddtion of the Committee, which was appointed
at the beginning of the privilege question.

Sir It. INGL IS could not give a silent vote upon
that question, for he had very strong objections t. all
r.r post facto legiilation. He objected also to the Bill
becauSe it indemnified the officers of the House cacti
for an abuse of the powers committed to them. He
would not give the House th:, trouble of dividing,
but content Ifimielf with catering his protest against
the Bill.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL—After what had passed
he would only say, that he would give his seriou.; at-
tention to the suggestions of the Right Hon. Member
for Ripon, and that in a future stage he would state his
impressions to the House.

The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered
to he committed on Friday.
The Horse Racing Bill was read a first time.
• Lord J. RUSSELL then moved the Order of the
Day for the House going into a Committee of Supply.
• AUSTRALIA.
Mr. GISBORNE had s?,en certain statements in the
newspapers of that day, in which it was said that the
fund to send out emigrants to Australia was exhausted.
He wished to known from the Noble Lord whether it
was true.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that at present the funds
were exhausted, but the operations were by no means
suspended.
CHURCH AND COUNTY COURTS.
In answer to a question from Mr. HAVES,
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Ecclesiastical
Courts Bill for the former Session had been much con-
sidered in the House of Lords, and the feeling of that
House was, that it should not be proceeded with until
some provision had been made for Church discipline ;
and with respect to the County Courts Bill, the Lord
Chancellor had wished that measure to be postponed,
until he had received the report of a Commission which
. : as collecting evidence relating to bankruptcy and in-
solvency, and that report was expected soon, and he
trusted that it would not be long before the Govern-
ment were enabled to bring forward a measure upon
the subject.
CLAIMS ON PORTUGAL.
In answer to questions from Lord SANDON,
Lord PALMERSTON said that he had looked over
the report made by Dr. Botvring that morning, and had
given orders that it should be laid upon the table of the
1 House at once, and that he had received despatches from
i Lord Howard, which led him to believe that the Portu-
geese Government were willing theta commission should
sit in London to decide upon the .claims of British sub-
jects upon them--ho trusted in a few days to have
official information that they had agreed to that course.
ARMY ESTIMATES.
f On the question that the Speaker do leave the Chair,
I Mr. HUME said that from statements laid on the
table of the House Hon. Members would find that
they were proceeding to vote their establishments upon
I the old extravagant scale, while last year there had been
an excess of expenditure over income of a million avid a
' half, and every probability of that excess this year being
I two millions. Now he had always been of opinion that

before any estimates at all were voted, the Government '
ought to give to the House an estimate of the whole ex
pease of all the establishments together, and also an esti-
mate of the expected income of the country. It had been
shadowed forth by the Noble Lord that shortly after
Easter they were to have some new taxes. He was
1 against any taxes, and he is anted to see if they could not
I do without try new ones. With that view he had been
I looking at the state of the revenue, and he found that
the increased expenditure had only risen from those esta-
blishments which were ant wally voted by that House.
He was sorry to say that that system was proceeding,
and up to the present time he might fairly reckon the
excess of expenditure over income at six millions ster-
' ling. Under these circumstances the House must see
the difficulty of avoiding the imposition of new taxes.
The balance sheet he held in his hand showed a defi-
ciency of ;i million and a half, and that was not owing
to any deficiency in the revenue, for, on the contrary,
the revenue was in an extremely prosperous state. Taking
from the year 1833 to the present time, he was sur-
prised to find that the amount of the net income ,
exceeded the average of the last seven years. From
1833 up to the present time (with the exception of
1836, a year of uausual excitement), the average
amount of the net income was forty-six millions and a
quarter to forty-six and a half millions, but in 1838 the
revenue was actually 47,333,0001., being about one
million more than the average of the pisceding years,
and yet notwithstanding all that they had the present
large deficiency. The amount of their taxation for the
year ending Jan. .5, 1839, was 52,949,0001., and they
now thought of adding to that large amount by the im-
position of new taxes, after so many years of peace.
That appeared to him to be a very important conside-
ration, and the question was how had the excess taken
place ? When he looked at the army, the navy, the
ordnance, and the miscellaneous estimates, he found the
explanation. In 1834 the aggregate of these estimates
was reurteen millions and a quarter—in 1835 it was four-
teen millions, something less than a quarter—in 1836 it
was 13,800,0001, and then began the increase. In
1837 it was 14,392,0001.—in 1838 it was 15,229,0001.
—in 1839 it was 16,000,000/. nearly, and he appre-
hended that the sum required for the present year
would be little short of 17,000,0001., the excess
over the ordinary expenditure on these items would be
little less than three millions. The .number of men
intended to be voted this year, was 137,232, namely,
for the navy, 35,651 ; for the army, 92,899 ; and for
the artillery, 8,318. Now he admitted that it was im-
possible for any person, except those immediately con-
nected with the Government, to know the exact num-
ber which might be required for the service of any year,
but he thought it was of the utmost importance to
know why so large a military force was required before
they went into a Committee of Supply. The speech of
her Majesty from the Throne, and the declaration of
Ministers, would lead the House and the country to be-
lieve that they were at peace with all the world ; and
he would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman to explain
why the force he asked for was so large, when in the
year 1822 the entire number for the army, navy, and
ordnance, was only 97,072 men. On a comparison of
1822 with the present year, as regarded the army alone, 1
he found an increase of 24,988 men. Of these there
had been 11,500 added in the years 1837-1838. It
appeared to him extraordinary that the Government
should have thought of sending 15,000 additional •
troops to Canada, when, had the people of
the Colony been only allowed to manage their
own affairs, the . country would have remained
perffctli tranquil. Now, however, that Canada was at
peace, IL:' thought these additional troops should be
withdrawn. 5
very thing, however, depended on the
policy of the Gov.rnment. Look at Ireland, which
was in a state of profound
The Hon. and Learned Memo tranquillity.—(Hear, hear.)
for Dublin told them
that if they were required, three ,7r four more regi-
ments might be spared. What was all il'At owing to?
Why, that the Government had resolved to de justice
to Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) Look at England, on the
other hand. There the people at large were dissatisfied,
and the masses discontented and disaffected ; and the
military which they had withdrawn from Ireland, were
now required in England, to overawe and keep dow!t the
people.—(Hear, bear.) There was a sense of injus-
tice and oppression rankling in the breasts of the
people, and they felt that they were not par-
takers of equal laws and equal justice. (Hear.)
There was also a police force in every town, and what
reason, therefore, could there be for keeping up this
enormous establishment ? They appeared to him to be
going on from day to day like spendthrifts, regardless
of the means by which to pay their debts ; and he be-
lieved it was a principle that the more a man became
involved the less care he took about trifles, leaving them
to take care of themselves. Her Majesty's Govern-
ment were running riot in expenses and establishments,
forgetful of their good principles when in opposition.
How lamentably they had failed with regard to reform
and retrenchment. Of reform the country had got
little—he hoped they would get more ; and with re-
gard to retrenchment, he did press upon the Noble I
Lord that the course the Government was now taking
must bring upon the country the most serious inconve-
nience, and what would be the result the Noble Lord
would find to his cost. As soon as difficulties in-
creased, the Gentlemen on the opposite side would lay
hold of them, and point out the extravagance of
the Government, to show how reckless they were of
the public funds, and try to convince the public they
were unworthy of their confidence.—(Hear.) There
might be some foundation for this. The Noble Lord
had a warning of this a few days ago, and he thought
that if those gentlemen .ivere not so ready themselves to
encourage extravagance, hut follow his advice and be-
come strict economists, they would find it a much better
course and much better means of getting the support
~ef the country than the course they now so unhappily
folio wed. He had done his duty in making these ge-
neral oet'servations upon the military force for he had
not mentioned the militia, for which we had expended
9,000,000/. sio:e the peace to no purpose whatever)
and he must say :hat during the whole time he had
never known so extrav:,_ezant a military establishment—
(Hear, hear)—and this, too,when there was a deficiency
in the revenue of from 2,500,2001. to 3,000,0001., and
we were in a state of what might Tee': considered perfect
peace. He had thought this the best ,`.'me for making
these observation, and he should consider ::"- a duty he
owed to the country, unless he heard from the tight
Hon. Gentleman some good reason for an addition io
our military force, to take the sense of the Committee
upon it, by proposing a reduction.
Colonel SIBTHORP said he had heard from
the Honourable Member for Kilkenny a great part
of the speeches he had delivered on various occasions
during the last three years, and he thought he should
be more correct if he slid twenty years as the period
the Member had been declaiming against what he and
tile country thought to be the extravagance and ineffi-
ciency of her Majesty's Ministers. He (Col. Sib-
thorp) entertained no respect for them so far as poli-
tical feelings went, but though the Hon. Member had
been declaiming against that side of the House, he in-
variably disappointed them—he asked what was the
cause of this excess—what could be the cause of it
—the want of good working ; yet though the Hon.
Member knew this as well as he, he invariably sat
down after making his speech, without taking a single
effectual measure to turn them over.—(Laughter.)
Could be effect this no man would rejoice at it more
than he—(Col. Sibthorp.) With all this declamation
how in the name of goodness happened it that the
Hon. Member continued to support Ministers instead
of taking effectual measures to supplant them, which
if he would do he should have his cordial support.
The Hon. Member talked of withdrawing troops from
Canada—he thought a further increase necessary if'
the Government went on as they did. He (Colonel S.)
had not assented to any one act of her Majesty's Go-
vernment—no man living had a worse opinion of them
in their political and official capacity—they knew
nothing, and he thought if they did they were not dis-
posed to act upon it. As he had said, on a former oc-
casion, there was joy in heaven over repenting sinners,
and, therefore, he hoped they would take his advice, ,
and change their course before it was too late.-
Lord JO II N RUSSELL said it was hardly neces-
sary that the Hon Member for Kilkenny had gone
over ground he had repeatedly traversed before. The
Hon. Gentleman always maintained that having ascer-
tained the amount of revenue, the Government ought
strictly to limit the public expenditure within it, to-
tally disregarding the wants of the country, the state of
our foreign relations, and our colonial force—that was
a principle the House had never agreed to, and to which
he trusted it would never be disposed to agree. The
Hon. Gentleman had said truly, that he ought to have
made his objection in the vete of the navy estimates,
and he (Lord John Russell) thought that would
have been the proper occasion, when, in truth,
the Government had asked for a considerable
increase, amounting to 400,000/. ; whereas the
Army Estimates were thirty thousand pounds less
fore if the Honourable Genntlemeabn past
had
in the present year than i th
shouldrevenu ea,thaell
should times
had asked for a considerable i
haveb e regulated
said so when' thetlie
WiththoughtGovernment
regard to
the necessity for that course hnecirleaadse.
stated
the reason in
the month of August last, and he thouh
bad met
with the general concurrence of the House.ttheyHe bed
placed it on two grounds—one the state of
the
try—there being at that period considerable excitement;
coun-
try—there
whereas it was now in a state of quiet, for he did
not
agree with the Hon. Gentleman that the state of the
country at present was the same as that of Newport
another ground was the necessity of a force in Canada.;
The Hon. Gentleman had said that necessity was a fel-
lacy, and he had made several recommendations on the
subject, the effect of which he (Lord J. R.) thought
would have been the establishment of a French Republic
in that country. He therefore could not recommend the
Sovereign to adopt them, and he thought the support
then given by the House to the Crown had enabled the
Crown to retain those people in allegiance. Another rea-
son was the giving relief to regiments that had been there
for many years. He believed:it was a right principle that
' Itroops who were sent upon colonial service should, after
10 years, return to this country and remain for a certain

The House then resolved itself into a Committee
of Supply.
Mr. MACAULAY said that the debate which had
just taken place had relieved him from the necessity of
remarking on what had fallen from the Hon. Member
for Kilkenny. Any person who had heard that Hon.
Member's speech that evening, if he had been pre-
viously unacquainted with the subject, would have
imagined that he (Mr. Macaulay) was about to propose
a large increase to the present military establishments,
whereas the fact was, that in August last the Hon.
Gentleman had in that House, when his Noble Friend
had proposed an addition of 75,0001. to the Military
Establishment of the country, declared that he would
not take upon himself the responsibility of decreasing
the military establishment of the country. Yet he,
(Mr Macaulay) was about to propose a diminution of
that force, and there was no argument which the Hon.
Member for Kilkenny had advanced on that subject,
which would not have been of equal validity in the
month of August last, and consequently it was the duty
of the Hon. Member to have advanced those argu-
ments at that period. The Noble Lord at that time
had proposed an addition of 6,519 men to the forces,
with an additional expense of 75,000/. a year to that
addition ; the Honourable Gentleman declared he
would not take upon himself the responsibility to object ;
of the number of troops which he was about to propose,
a considerable number were for Indian purposes, and
the expense of those troops would be borne by the
Indian empire. The total number of troops which he
proposed the Committee to vote amounted to 109,818,
of which 102,104 were for the general purposes of the
kingdom, leaving 7,904 for the services of the Indian
empire. There was an addition to the colonial forces
amounting to 4,088, which he wished to explain to the
House in order to refute what had fallen from the Hon.
Member for Kilkenny. This number of men had been
added in the colonial regiments. There were 350 men,
for instance, added to the Ist West India Regiment.
and he hoped that these men would be of great
use, as saving the health of Europeans, and doing
tbat duty which would otherwise devolve upon
European troops in that unhealthy climate. There
was also an addition to the regiments .in Malta, and to
the militia in Bermuda. This addition was proposed in
Bermuda, because it was considered better that a por-
tion of the inhabitants of the island of Bermuda should
be appended to the regiments stationed in that
island, and thus should have an opportunity of acquiring
a knowledge of the best system of military discipline,
and after a certain portion of the population had served
in this way they should be succeeded by others, so that
eventually the whole of the population should ac-
quire a knowledge of military discipline. It had
been thought necessary to make an addition
of five hundred. There were eighty-five battalions
in the United Kingdom, and to each of these it had
been thought necessary to make an addition of 65 men ;
at present those battalions consisted each of 835 men,
and it hail been thought necessary to raise them to
900 men. This addition of 65 men had been made by
adding 4 sergeants, 4 corporals, and 57 men to each
battalion. To the 21 battalions which were in India
an addition had been made of 250 men, that is to say,
they had been raised from 835 men to 1,185 men.
The Hon. Member for Kilkenny had insinuated that
the Government had proposed increased estimates, for
the purpose of increasing their patronage. Now
the fact was, that, according to the proposed
„stimates, her Majesty's Government would not
have he means of providing for a single ac-
quaintance, Pr of obliging an individual 10/.
householder ; they would have no means of in
creasing the patronage of the Crown whatever. The
only additional force proposed was that which was
added to the Ist West India Regiment, and the Go-
vernment would not derive from that the means of
obliging a single friend. There was a slight increase in
some of the charges, which he felt called upon to
explain. In consequence of the increase which had
recently taken place of 20,000 men in the military force
of the United Kingdom, various applications had been
made at the War-office for a supply of books and re-
&ions tracts ; and, considering the increase which bad
taken place, and the religious wants of those persons
and their connections, who had recently enlisted,
he had proposed the slight increase of 2001.
under that head—(Hear, hear)—and he thou., ht
the House would consider that he was justified
in proposing that slight increase as an additional item
in the usual estimate. There was also a slight increase
in the item of good conduct pay. The full effect of
the system of good conduct pay would not be completely
felt until the year 1843. In the year 1836 it had been
proposed that a soldier who had behaved well for seven
years, and during the whole of that period had not sub-
jected himself to punishment, reprimand, or animadver-
sion, should be entitled to receive an allowance in ad-
dition to his day's pay, under the head of good conduct
pay, but soldiers who had been previousl' entitled by
length of service to additional pay, were permitted
to have the option whether they would receive
the old additional pay, or whether they would take their
chance of their good conduct pay, and those who had et.-
listed in the year 1836 had the option given to them
whether they would place themselves upon the list for
good conduct pay, or whether they would remain as for-
merly, and take their chance of additional pay for length
of cervice; consequently the full effect of the good conduct
pay would not be felt till 1843 ; nevertheless a considerable
addition would have to be made in 1840. Those who
had the option of receiving either the additional pay,
or the.good conduct pay, were neverthelessectitled an
wear the good conduct badge,; and be was happy to
state that the number of soldiers wearing the •good
conduct badge amounted to 15,000. In the estimates
of last year the sum of 240,0001. had been proposed
for victualling 100,000 men. He had to propose in
that a slight increase: the sum he proposed now was
955,000/. One cause of this increase was the dearth
which had happened in Australia, The troops sta-
tioned in that colony were in consequence obliged to
pay 4d, for the same quantity of provisions which
they used formerly to obtain for Id. The consequence
was that they were almost entirely deprived of the use
of tea and vegetables. They bad, consequently, been
reduced from three meals a day to two meals, and one
lof there was a scanty and unsavoury meal of oatmeal.
Under these circumstances it had been found impos-
sible to keep up that strict discipline which was ne-
lweutehsdiseatibr
eytatuocin thehtitob‘uevrnetdlole-
brgeio cong4nsitde troops and the discipline
erabie rgTaxation—crimes
been unknown in the array bad in
consequence at this scarcity began to make their apa
pearance among the trig, and the officers in command
tio lead
paiissueconsequentlyof 2
dd. a e
ee m
dayi to t
t andYiahie to make an addi-
tia troapa, or, which
amounted to the same thing, to make a stoppage of
2d. per day lees out of their pay, and the (loYertunent
1 at home had than ht it right to acquiesce *:.!
that arrangement. There vigs a third charge in the
su
present estimates which was perfectly new, and the tie-
! eessity for which he thought himself called upon to
explain to the House, and that was a charge of 3,500/.
forschoolmistresses,
saw
to somet
4e
Hon.
HouseGentlemenhtat i
mile ; but
the woul
would just "e
state
t
year the experiment hadmade of
been providing school!,
mistresses for one of the corps, ad it
had been found
a . i
perfectly satisfactory. In consequence of that expert-

ment, the Government had been induced to institute
inquiries, and they found that there were upwards of
ten thousand female children attached to the different
regments. These poor children were liable to be moved
from place to place—from Malta to Gibraltar, from
Gibraltar to the West Indies, and from the West In-
lie:. to Halifax, and thus were deprived of those ad-
vantages of obtaining such an education as would enable
them to obtain their living as every poor child, who
was stationary in one place, had it in its power to ob-
tain. Under these circumstances, the Government
had thought it advisable to appoint 181 schoolmistresses
in addition to the schoolmasters, so as to provide the
poor children with such an education as would hereafter
enable them to get their own living.—(Cheers.) There
was an addition of 10,0001., which was proposed for the
formation of a veteran battalion in Canada. Six
years ago inquiries had been made about the number of
desertions that had taken place in the troops stationed '
in Canada. The number of troops stationed there at
that time amounted to 2,550, and the number of de-
sertions to 650, whilst the total number of desertions
from the whole army during the same period amounted
to 2,240. Nor did these desertions in Canada consist
merely of disreputable men. Some of them were some
of the steadiest men in the service. Nor were
they distressed men, as many of them went away
leaving arrears of pay due to them. Why,
should this desertion take place so particularly in our
North American colonies ? The situation of a soldier
there was different from what it was in any other part
of the empire. In Gibraltar, the deserter would have
to take refuge among strangers ; in Malta and the
West Indies, all attempt at escape was barred by the
sea ; in India, nothing could be imagined more forlorn
than the situation of the deserter from a European re-
giment—wandering among a population differing in
colour and language from himself; and every moment
within reach of the English martial law ; but, in the
American colonies, the case was different—there was
the greatest temptation to desert. There was an ill-
defined and extensive frontier—there was the
vast extent of a new country before the deserter,
offering all the advantages of a virgin soil, high wages,
and th exaggerated descriptions of the prosperity of a
new country, besides the facility of carrying all his
plans into effect. It had therefore been wisely propo-
sed that Canada should be the last colony to which a
regiment should be sent, after having gone to every
other colony of the empire, so that almost every soldier
in Canada should, on the score of length of service, be
entitled to good conduct pay, in addition to his regular
pay, and in addition it was proposed as a stronger in-
ducement to keep the soldier in Canada true to his
colours, to institute a veteran battalion in that colony,
and as a nucleus for that battalion, a grant
of 10,0001. was asked for. He would now
state the sum he would ask for St. Helena.
They should consider St. Helena as a place which was
to be dealt with according to the difference of exigen-
cies. They proposed to ask for a sum of 5,0001. for
that purpose, and he thought it would be exceedingly
desirable to make that provision. The whole charge
for the land force was 3,511,8701. The whole charge
for last year, adding a supplementary estimate of
75,0004 had been 3,496,3821., making an increase of
15,8471. He would now come to the staff expenses.
There was an increase on the home staff, and a de-
crease on the foreign staff. The increase on the pay of
the entire staff was about 5501. That was to be
attributed to the particular situation of Nova Scotia
and New Brunswick. With regard to New Brunswick,
there had hitherto been a Major-General appointed
to the command there, but it was now found requisite
to intrust that situation, which was one of great im-
portance and responsibility, and requiring the highest
qualifications, to a Lieutenant-General, with an increased
allowance. The whole of the items for the staff were
large, but that was principally owing to the state of
Canada and of the island of Jamaica. Those parts of
the estimates were formed in the following manner.
They were formed from the actual expenditure of the
previous year, because the distance of these colonies
rendered it impossible to fix the expenses of the current
year ; so that the estimates of 1839 were
formed, as far as regarded these colonies, from
the expenses of 1838, and the estimates of
1840 would be formed from the expenses of 1839.
Every Hon. Member must know how great a differ-
ence there was in the estimates of the staff for 1838
and 1839, and no one could be surprised that that in-
crease should have been found necessary when the state
of Canada was taken into consideration. The refusal
of the Legislative Council of Jamaica to vote those al-
lowances which bad been previously considered a mat-
ter of course, had greatly added to their expenses there';
but, if he was rightly informed, there was every reason
to expect that the Assembly would consent to defray
those burdens. The whole expense of the staff in 1839
was 155,0001. ; for the year 1840 it would be 164,0001.,
making an increase of 9,0001. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman proceedad to say that a matter occurred to him
to which he wished to call the attention of the House.
He had to beg pardon for an error which had been
made in the statement of the estimates laid before them.
The mistake was in the third line of the charges '
lowed for the public department. The estimate un-
der that head stood as being only 516,0001., while it
ought to have been 616,0001., making a differ-
ence of 100,000/. That had, of course, affected the
balance of the whole accounts. There had been
a reduction since last year in the expenses of the
Military School. There was an increase, however, in
the expenses of the Yeomanry ; but he thcught the
House would willingly grant that additional sum, be-
cause through all the trials the Yeomanry had been
subjected to since last year, they bad shown not only
their usual spirit, but there had not been a single in-
stance of undue severity on their part. Under the head
of reward for services there was a small reduction. In
1839, the sums alloted for those rewards amounted to
16,4201., they now amounted to 15,8451. only. There
was also a reduction in the pay of General Officers.
That pay amounted last year to 102,0001.—it was now
only 92,0001. ; no General Officer had been promoted
to regiments since last year. A reduction had taken
place since last year in the number of persons receiving
that pay to the amount of ten; 100 persons had ceased
to receive anything from the Compassion List, and a re-
duction had taken place under that head. The number
at Chelsea had decreased by upwards of 1,000,
and there was now a balance in the hands
of the Hospital of upwards of 17,0001. The
superannuation list had diminished from upwards
of 44,0001. to 42,000/. Before he put the vote, be
could not help saying a few words in answer to some
observations that had been made by the Hon. Member
for Kilkenny. He well knew how zealous that Hon.
Member was in the discharge of his duties ; he well
knew how ready he was to effect a diminution in the
public expense, but he should say that he believed that
that Hon. Member had never in his life given a vote
more economical—more trul y favourable to civil liberty
than that which he gave in last August, when he voted
for an increase of 5,000 men. That was the vote
which he (Mr. Macaulay) now proposed to demand.
He agreed with the Hon. Member for Kilkenny in
thinking that unnecessary taxation was a great evil—
that he did not believe that any taxation which ever
bound an oppressed people was so dangerous as those
disorders which 'discouraged industry, and disturbed
the peace of a country. He had never for a
single moment doubted that, in any great crisis,
the people of England would be found marshalled
on the side of order and would put forth their irresistible
power against insurgents ; and he had never thought
that this country could be given over as a prey to revo
lution. But, at the same titne, he could not, but think
it possible that one of those cities which were celebrated
over the whole world for their wealth, their industry,
their vast population, and for those exquisite fabrics
they sent forth to all the corners of the globe—he could
not but consider it possible that one of those cities
might come into the hands of extravagant men, led on
by false leaders, and encouraged by delusive hopes.
When he considered the wealth of those cities, and the
small space which they filled in proportion to their
wealth—when he remembered what malignant indus-
try had been employed for the purpose of inflaming
the minds of the people against that commerce and
those resources from which their own fuel and their
own clothing was derived, when he considered
all this, he did not think it impossible
that some great calamity might occur which the indus-
try of years could not amend. Once only within the
memory of man had this great metropolis been aban-
doned to the multitude, who found them for a moment
stronger than the law. He spoke of the Popery riots,
in 1780, and he had no hesitation in saying that if they
were to determine between the losses which bad been
suffered at that time, and the sum which the Govern-
ment
their o
cwh asked,nice.
The sum
s cuomu I
lostd not
on
fora
that
momentoccasion i
n hesitate
o single hour far surpassed, he believed, the sum voted'
ie
last August for the purpose of keeping up an
addi-
tional force of 5,000 men. He therefore thought that
the Hon Member for Kilkenny had never given a more
economical vote than the vote he gave on that occasion,
or one more truly favourable to the people of this coon.
try. It was a just and profound remark of Mem Smith,
that "it had been said that standing armies had been
found hostile to liberty, but that principle should be laid
down with great medification."
He says that, "keeping
up a well-disciplined fovaa
un,pr a ,onstitutional Go-
vernment is one means of enabling that Govam nerit tp
keep liberty from verging into licentiousness." He (Mr.
N.) did not pretend to quote the precise words of
that great .R.n but he fir.nly believed that that remark
of his was not more ingeaKiecs than it was just, and its
justice had been proved by the eiccierienee of last year.
He believed that the case a few months ago with the
Governnielg was simply this, either to increase their
military force gs-alitiy, cse tp k=eys recourse to the system
lieved that have voted last year against
adopterbylAr, Pitt and Loiel. Liverpoi, • he Ltea
a whoever woe • ...sted ftir the
the grant to 5,000 men would have
suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act and the destruction
of the liberty of the press. He was firmly convinced'
of the happy effects which would follow from that mea-
sure. He was firmly convinced that the vote of last
August was a vote of economy, and was favourable to
civil liberty, and he was convinced that nothing had