The Sun.
London, England, 1824-03-10 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Sir W. INGILRY presented a petition from Spilsby, in Lin-
colnshire, against Negro Slavery.
Mr. PARES presented a similar petition from three parishes
in Leicestershire.
Mr../. MARTIN presented a petition against the Combina-
tion Laws, from the 31cehanics of Tewicesbriry.—Referred to
the Committee on the Combination Laws.

Mr. C. DUNDAS presented a petition from the Victuallers
of Newbury, against the Excise Licenses.
Mr. BF NG presented a similar petition from the Victuallers
of Brentford. Also a petition from the united parishes of St.
Andrew, Holborn, and St. George the Martyr, against the
Window-tax. _

.....
111 r. JAMES presented a petition from Francis llott, of Li-
♦erpool, again►t the Legacy Ditties.

IRISH CATHOLIC EDUCATION.

Mr. GRATI'A N presented a petition, signed by the Ro-
man Catholic Hierarchy of Ireland, and many of the most
respectable Clergy, complaining of the regulations of several
Charitable Institutions, which were enforced to the injury
and disparagement of their religion. The chief grievance
referred to the system of education persisted in by the dif-
ferent school establishments. He thought that the prayer
i
of the petition could be considered as only rational, which
besought from the House that where money was granted
for the education of the poor, in places where there were
scarcely any other people but oman Catholics, that their own
clergymen, and not those of the Protestant Church, should he
intrusted with the administration of some portion at least of
generaattentionl and
i.r from the
im-
portance, l-
sluocrthaigicrea,n
wasts.
thel'he more entitled
besidesto theirts
con-
sideration that the system of Protestant management exclu-
sively had not produced any very desirable results, and the
Protestant schools were likely to require an additional grant
this year. For the Protestant charter-schools, it was designed
to ask for a vote of 70,0001.; and in the course of 17 years,
front their foundation till this time, there had been expended
on them no less than half a million, while only 2,000 indivi-
duals had completed their education in them. He could speak
of his own knowledge to very gross mismanagement in the ad-
ministration of the funds for that which was called the Lord
Lieutenant's school. It was his intention shortly to move for
a committee to which should be referred the system of educa-
tion for the poor in Ireland; and he did not doubt, should it
be granted, that some method would he found out for satisfy-
! ing the minds both of Protestants and Catholics upon it.
Mr. GOULBURN, in the absence of documents, contented
himself with abroad denial of any mismanagement in the funds
allowed for education. He could not admit the prayer of the
petition for money to be applied to the uses of the Roman Ca-
tholic Clergy to bring up the children of the poor in their own
faith. It was sowing the seeds of continual discord, and nurs-
ing antipathies already too vigorous. There must necessarily
be a restraint in the application of funds granted by a Protes-
tant Government for educating the poor. That restraint was
the most moderate which could be devised ; it only required a
pledge that the Scriptures should be read in the schools, which
were open alike to all religions, without note or comment.
These conditions had been complied with in numerous instances
by the resident Roman Catholic Clergy, notwithstanding the
opposition of their superiors, and the parents ot Roman Cotho-
lie children had sent them to the schools in many places where
the Priests were opposed to it. The effect was an increasing
spirit of union and conciliation among the people.
Sir J. NEWPORT complained, that although in the month
of July in the last Session of Parliament he had moved for a
variety of papers connected with the subject before the House,
with the intention of calling the attention of the House to it
before the grants were moved for, yet they were not at the pre-
sent moment on their table; and, as he was informed, no com-
munication of the orders of the }louse had been made to the
parties who were to comply with it till the last month. His
intention was to have moved for a Committee to inquire into the
whole of the subject, for, undoubtedly, the benefits of educa-
tion ought to be extended to the whole body of the people, with-
out being subject either to the reality or the apprehension of
its being converted into an engine of proselytism.
Mr. DAWSON doubted whether, in point of form, this
petition could be received, purporting to come from the Catholic
Bishops of Ireland. He contended that the greatest benefits
had resulted to Ireland from the system of education as already
established, and he disclaimed for the charter and other schools
any intention of abusing the trusts reposed in them to the pur-
poses of proselytism.
Mr. J. SMITH thought the reading the Scriptures in the
schools without note or comment was a most desirable object,
and one to which no objection could be made.

Mr. PLUNKETT said, that whatever difference of opinion
might exist on the subject of the petition, t lere was no doubt
the petitioners were entitled to be heard with the most respect-
ful attention. Ile thought his Hon. Friend (Mr. Goulburn)
was mistaken in the character of the petition, in supposing it
asked for a grant of public money ; and his other Hon. Friend
(Mr. Dawson) appeared to him to be also in error as to the
character of the persons who signed it. It was the " petition
of the undersigned Catholic Bishops." That was a right de-
scription. Those persons were Bishops of a Christian church,
and were competent to give ordination as such ; and if they
were to conform to the Protestant church they would become
Bishops of that church. He said this lest the petition should
be rejected in point of form. On the matter of the petition he
would say, that he agreed with the sentiments expressed by the
Hon. Member for 'Waterford (Sir J. Newport), and he also
agreed with many of the allegations of the Reverend petitioners.
He agreed with them on the importance of education, and that
no system of education could be safely conducted of which re-
ligion was not the basis. He thought it impracticable and
chimerical to rest any system of education on morality only,__
the attempt, in his mind, was not only useless, but pernicious.
How far it might be practicable, from the state of the funds in

PRlcr, StVENRENCt

these schools, to support teachers of the separate persuasions,
it might be desirable to ascertain.
Sir 11. PARNELL said a few words: •
Mr. ABERCROMBY thought the best results had been
experienced from the reading of the Scriptures without note or
comment, where it had been practised with the consent of the
Catholic Clergy, but he should be decidedly adverse to making
• that compulsory. Whenever the subject of the grants came
before the House, he would press for some assistance to the
schools in the South of Ireland, who had followed the practice
to which he had alluded.
Mr. V. FITZGERALD thought his Honourable Friend
(31r. Grattan) had been misinformed when he stated that the
good effects of these schools had not been conformable to the
expectations of Parliament. In two counties in the south of
Ireland, which were almost exclusively Catholic--he meant
Limerick and Galway—the schools had considerably increased.
—ln 1817 there were only three schools ; but in 1323 they
had increased to 108. He assured the house that there was no
partiality in the management of the schools, of which fact the
Catholics themselves were now satisfied. He eulogized the
objects of the Kildare-street Society, which had, during the
last year, printed and sold P 21,000 volumes, at a cheap rate,
with the intention of driving out of the market the corrupting
trash which before pervaded it, and which object they had in
great measure accomplished. -
- Mr. D. BROW/NE thought the Kildare,-street Society Would
have done a great deal more good if they had not stipulated, as
a sine qua non, that the Bible should be read without note or
comment in the schools to which they lent money. It was the
opinion of several dignitaries of the Church of England, that
the Bible should not be pat into the hands of the ignorant, un-,
accompanied by any explanation. While, howeeer, nearly six
millions of the population of Ireland were separated from the
state, he did not mean in the participation of civil offices, but
separated by the episcopal government, it was in vain to expect
a remedy for the evils which existed.
Mr. PEEL regretted that any topics upon which a great
difference of opinion was known to exist should be mixed up
with the subject of this petition, upon which all Hon. Mem-
bers were agreed. It appeared to him that there were two great
principles by which the education of the poet. of Ireland should
be effected. The first was to unite, as far as it was possible to
do so without committing upon the feelings of the people, the
children of Catholic and Protestant parents in one system of
education. The second, that in educating Catholic children,
the persons intrusted with the task, and those directing it,
should honestly, punctually, and faithfully discard all attempts
at proselytism.—(Hear, hear !)—He had co-operated with his
Right Hon. Friend, the Member for Clare, in the formation of
the society which had been alluded to, and at that period he
could bear testimony that every intention of proselytism was
absent from, he believed, all the persons connected with the
society. Ile trusted, that as there was a general accordance on
the main principles, no party animosities would be admitted
into the discussion of this subject, and that when its details
came to be debated, there would be no interference of any les..
worthy feelings than those by which the question ought to be
regulated.--( Hear !)
Mr. C. GRANT said, he had thought it his duty to inquire
into the charge of proselytism which had been made against
ctetloilleianettl,y,society, and that it appeared to him to be without founda-
tion. The society had even so far relaxed its original rules as
hiori;:efecbplehl
Rttai
soeTnii
eTt
to pelmit the circulation of the Roman Catholic version of the
11l
wiaetwAalpesarssetn:lttoalelttraelicltdhabitalrtorioigl
ttegrego,eiloariodtit
lieaccu iotnpuooslftnadntrtbtihil,veeearelteifraiaii,lield.et On the mo-
tion
Scriptures.
institutions,e
e;
effected
Kildare-street s) utrt explainedeebty andSt
hoe-
adoption of one universal system, he saw no hope of such a
system, unless it should be enforced by the authority of the

The petition was then ordered to be printed.
On the motion of Colonel WA LroLs, the Speaker was or-
dered to issue his writ for the return of a Member for King's
Lynn, in the place of the Marquis of Titchfiehl, deceased.
Sir J. NEWPORT gave notice of his intention to pursue
the object of the petition which had been just received, by
moving for a Committee to inquire into the best method of
educating the poor of Ireland. The noise which at this mo-
ment prevailed in the House prevented us from hearing the
day fixed by the Right lion. Baronet for this purpose.
SOUTH AMERICAN COLONIES.
_

Sir J. MACKINTOSII put of;' rslC.lti4lil on this subject,
which he last night fixed for Thursday, the 18th instant; but
here, also, we found it impossible to catch the day to which the
motion was postponed.
Mr. SYKES moved for a return of the duties paid, for the
year ending the Ist of January, 1824, on blubber and train-oil
procured from fish caught by the crews of British vessels ;
and also fir a return of the bounties paid to the owners of such
vessels during the same period.—Ordered.
Mr. EVANS presented a petition from three parishes in
Nottinghamshire, praying for the total abolition of slavery.
Sir U. BURGH presented a petition from Freemasons of
Ireland, praying to be put in the stone condition as the Free-
masons of Great Britain.
Mr. BENE TT presented a petition from Heytesbury, against
slavery.
Mr. J. SMITH presented a petition from Chelsea, in favour
of the Bill to prevent cruelty to animals.
Cllr. DENISON presented a petition from Lambeth, praying
for the repeal of the duty on coals.
Mr. A BERCHO3I Y presented a petition from the mer-
chants of Edinburgh, in favour of free trade. They expressed
an opinion, in which he fully concurred, that the measures of
31inisters had entitled them to general support and approbation-
They prayed for a repeal of the direct taxes, and deprecated
the application of any part of the public money to the *building
of churches, for the advantage of only a part of the community.
Mr. MONCK presented a petition from persons connected
with the silk trade in Reading, against the immediate execu-
tion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's measure with respect
to the silk duties.

-
Lord A. HAMILTON presented a petition from the Nobi-
lity, Gentry, and Freeholders of the country of Forfar, against
a Bill called the Tay Salmon-fishery Bill, which had been
introduced into the House as a private Bill. Ile had waited
in the hope of seeing the lion. Member in Lia place by whom
that Bill had been introduced.

Mr. C. GRANT said the subject was under the considera-
tion of the Board of Trade, who were desirous to satisfy all
parties. Be was not authorised to kay any thing on the part of
the lion. Gentleman, by whom the Bill had heen introduced ;
but he would mention, that, in a conversation with him, that
the Honourable Gentleman had expressed his readiness to de-
lay his Bill, if the matter should be taken up 11 the Board of
Trade.

Sir R. FERGUSSON said a few words; after the
petition was ordered to on the table, and to be printed.
Mr. HUME presented two petitions against the same Rill ;
one from the Provost and Magistrates of Montrose, order the
seal of the borough ; and the other from the Corivenor and
Deacons of the nine incorporated trades of Dundee. -
Mr. Got7Lnuns then rose; but Mr. HUSKISSON beggel
the Right Hon. Gentleman, if it would not be productive oc
inconvenience to hint, to allow him to mote that the Report of
the Committee of Ways and Means he brought up.
Mr. Got:Lnuits gave place; and on the motion of Mr.
Iluaxissow, the Report was brought up.
•
WAYS AND MEANS.

The Itesolutions,in respect to the Sugar Duties, which had.
been proposed in the Committee, and were now reported, were
read a first and second time, and agreed to.
Mr. lILTSKISSON then moved the further consideration of
the Report of the same Committee (16th of Febtuary) upon the
Third resolution respecting the Ditties on Foreign Spirits and
Sweets :—" That towards raising the supply granted to his
Majesty, the duties of Excise on foreign spirits- and sweets
granted by an Act made in the 43d year of his late Majesty;
and on brandy and other spirits, granted by an Act made in
the 47th year of his late Majesty, which have been continued
by several Acts until the 5111 day of July, 1824, be further
continued."

Mr. HUME wished to know what was to be the rate of these
duties ? Was it the intention of his Majesty's Govemmetit to
continue the duty of ios. 6d. span the gallon of spirits in Eng-
land, while it was to he so much less in Scotland and Ireland ?
He thought that this seemed inequitable, while it had not riven
the recommendation of operating to prevent smuggling ; for if
a duty was to be continued in Scotland at 2s. 6d., and in Zlg7
land at 10s. 6d., it was clearly impossible that smuggling from
Scotland could be prevented.
Mr. HUSKISSON presumed the Hon. Member was aWare
that this Resolution related only to that part of the duty on
spirits which was granted annually. The annual chifyy on. brandy'
was 6s. Bd. ; and that on rum 3s. The Resolution had no ope-
ration on the annual duty on British spirits ; therefore the whole