The Sun.
London, England, 1823-04-23 00:00:00

USLIR LAWS.

Mr. Sergeant ONSLOW rose to move for leave to bring in
a BilLukr.esieia the Laws aggrist Ustiry. He
duals tribtleft to arrive their own affairs with respect to
money, as with respect to every thing else. He addressed the
House at some len,7,th on the iniportance of adopting a mea-
sure like that which he had now the honour to propose. He
shelved that considerable difficulties were thrown in the way
of raising money under the present laws, and those made it
in some instances more ruinous now to raise money than it
would be if the lender were at liberty to demand higherinte-
rest without offending the law. Ile traced the history. of the
Usury Laws from the time of Henry the Eighth downwards,.
raminded the House of the circumstances under which he
had formerly called their attention to this subject, and con-
cluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to repeal the
Laws which Prohibit the taking of a larger rate of interest,for
money.
Leave was given to bring in the Bill.
ADM IN IS TR.k TWIN: OF. JUSTICE IN IRELAND.

Mr. C. GRANT felt it necessary to trespass on the attention '
of the House for a moment. He did so in consequence of certain
expressions which had fallen from his Right Hon. Friend the
President of the .Board of Controul, which bad been understood
to imply that the Government of Ireland which had preceded
that of Lord Wellesley had countenanced a partial adnimistra.
tion of justice. Ile must confess that to him the words of his
Right lion. Friend had not seemed to convey such a charge.
Not having been able to find an opportunity of speaking in that
debate, he had not proposed taking any notice of the words
in question, but in consequence of the opinion which prevail.
ed that such an imputation had been cast on' the Government
of which he had been a member, he thought it right to put a •
question to his Right Honourable Friend. He believed that his
Right Honourable Friend had not meant to say any thing of
the kind, and feeling satisfied, as he certainly did, that such a
charge would be pafcctly groundless, an answer was perhaps
hardly necessary, but still it would be gratifying to his feelings
that one should be given.
Mr. C. W. WYNN had not the least difficulty in stating on
this as on the former occasion, that he had had no intention of
preferring stich a charge against any Administration, or
against any individual connected with any Administration, as
that •of countenancing partiality in the adminiStration of jus.
tire. Unquestionably if he had conceived that any individual
or Administration had been guilty of such conduct, it would
have been his bounden duty to have brought the case forward
in a substantive charge against the offending party. What he
had said was this consequence of what had fallen from
the Eight Honourable Gentleman opposite, he had described
himself in joining the present Administration to have reserved
to himself and others the fullest right of supporting in Connell
or in Parliament any proposition tending to ameliorate the
condition of Ireland. - considefed the carrying of the Ca-
tholic Question, with regard to these views, to be an object
of primary importance. He had further said that he had been
induced to join the present Government, becaose the nomina-
tion of the Marquis Wellesley to be Lord Lieutenant, and of.
his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Plunkett) to be Attorney-
General for Ireland, did hold out a prospect for Ireland of
having her affairs conducted by}a firm, impartial, and concili-
atory 'Administration, He had also said that the existing laws
whatever they might be, ought ,to be equally administered to
all classes of his Majesty's subject; and that Roman Catholics
in every case ought to be allowed a fair share of those privi-
leges and advantages to which they were entitled by law. In
making these stipulations, lie had intended to cast no reflection
on any one, nor did he intend to do
so when he restated them.
Such was not the course lie had taken, midi was the course
which he had thought it right to pursue.
.111 r. Secretary PEEL said, the subject before the House was
so important that he must be excused for offering a few obser.
vations on it. He must claim for himself, and for every indivi.
dual with whom he had acted for six years, the credit of hay.
ing administered justice in Ireland with strict impartiality to
all classes of his Majesty's stthjects.—(l-He )—lte would
s rt distinctly and solemnly, that the most scriq attention
had been paid to the administration of justice in that country.
In any case (and such cases were but too frequent) Where a
Protestant and Catholic were concerned in an infraction of the
peace, the course which had almost uniformly been pursued,
was not to trust to the local authorities, but to send down a
Counsel of eminence,_ or CommissionerS, and on their report,
if the case were at all doubtful, to direct the Law Officers of
the Crown to take it into their h.mda and prosecute all the
parties. So much for the administration of justice under that
Government. Had any default of justice been detected, the
party making such discovery ought to have instituted a strict
inquiry into the'eauses of it. With respect to the exclusion of
Roman Catholics from office; which, by law, they were
authorised to hold, he could fearlessly ask, if he, or any
one connected with that Government, have ever inquired whe.
ther the epplicant, for office was a Roman Catholic or ,a Pro-
testant ? Never, in the six years during which he had been
a Member of that Administration, had a Roman Catholic been
excluded, on account of his religion, from any situation,
by law, he was eligible to fill. lie begged the House to re-
member who had been connected with that Administration be.
sides himself. There wax his Learned Friend the present
Chief Justice of the, King's Bench, who had differed (min him
on the Catholic Question—there was also his Right Hon. Friend
the then Chancellor of the Exchequer for Ireland, who also dif-
fered from him in that particular; but with respect to the admi.
nistration of justice, where Roman Catholics and Protestants
were concerned, there never had been the slightest ditfereuce
among them. It would have been wholly impossible for his
(Mr. Peel's) re-admission into office to have taken place, if an
idea had beer entertained either that justice had not been fairly
administered in Ireland, or that Roman Catholics had, been
improperly excluded from situations which the law allowed
them to fill, while he was a Member of the Irish Government.
It was right to state that he had been no party to any stipula-
tion that the Government of Ireland should be conducted on
principles at all differing from those on which it had been here-
tofore conducted. if any such whisper bad been heard, it had
not reached him. In speaking to the integrity of that Govern.
ment he had claimed no compliment to himself, but he could
not forgot the virtues of his Noble and lamented Friend, the
Ituke of Richmond ; nor those of his dear Pi iend, the mildest,
wisest, and justest of men, Lord Whitworth. His Right
lion. Friend, the former A ttorney.General for Ireland, had
also been animated by an anxious desire to administer justice
impartially, and for them and himself he claimed credit for
having never lost sight of those principles on which he de-
dared they had acted.
Mr. C. W. WYNN repeated the declaration, that he had
meant to prefer no charge against any individual whatever, nor
had he wished to charge the Government collectively, with
any intentional partialities in the administration of justice.-
11 is opinion he had fairly avowed when the conduct of that Go.
vernment was. the subject of debate.
BENNET tittered a few remarks, which were not dis-
tinctly heard in the gallery.
Mr. C. GRANT said, whatever differences had existed with
regard to the Catholic Question, between himself and the late
Lord Lieutenant:, it was due to that Noble Person to say, that
the utmost impartiality had prevailed. in the administration of
justice, and m the distribution of the ).iatronage of Govern.
ment, the only question ever asked was this, whether the party
was to or unfit to fill the office which might be vacant.
Mr. V. FITZGERALD rose.
111 r. CA LCHA PT spoke to order. If the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman were allowed to speak on this occasion, he hoped the
Conversation which had been carried on so much to the satin.
fitction of the Gentlemen opposite would not then be stopped.
'e Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had been dismissed, he
,supposed, because the same system was to be acted upon by
his successor.
Mr. V. FITZGERALD spoke to order. Ile thought the
remarks of the Hon. Gentleman not quite fairly introduced—
, 'she House woulll feel that the imputation understood to be

The SPEAKER felt that he owed some explanation and
apology to the House for the course which this conversation had
taken. He had been aware that a question would be put by
one Hon. Member, to which an answer would be given by
another. This, though not strictly in order, was sanctioned by
custom, and he would beg of any Hon. Member who consider-
ed him rather lax in his duty, to say where he could have in-
tempted the question. If the questi‘,m were allowed to be put,
could he with propriety have interrupted the answer ? The an-
swer of the Right Hon. Gentleman had referred in some mea-
sure to the colleagues of the Right Hon. :Member who had
put the question, one of whom being a Member, and being
present, had offered himself to the House. Ought he than to
have-stopped the conversation, and prevented the Right lion.
Gentleman from speaking ? Nothing was more difficult than
for a Speaker to know the precise moment when the forma of
the House ought to be enforced, and that in which it was for
the general convenience that they should be relaxed.
Here the conversation ended, by the Speaker calling the next
name on his paper.
LINCOLN PETITION. •

Mr. A. PELHAM rote to present the petition lately voted
by the inhabitants of the City of Lincoln, on the subject of
Parliamentary Reform. The Meeting from which this petition
came, had been most respectably attended, and the whole of
the proceedings had been of the most orderly description.
Mr. A. S3l ITIL though not present at the Meeting from
which this petition came, could state from the space which had
been enclosed by those who attended it, that including men,
women, and children, there were not 1100 persons there. It was
said of such meetings, that there was a great deal of humbug:
connected with them, and a still more unpopular word had
been used :—the word farce had been applied to them. He
would say that a more complete county farce had never been
enacted than this. Ile considered the whole to be a mere ad
captandum vulgus affair, and did not regard the petition from
the manner in which the meeting had been got up, as express-
ing the sense of the county.
Sir IL HERON did not know into what sort of company the
Hon. Gentleman had chanced to have fallen, but whoever had
given him the information, on which the speech he had just
made was founded, he begged the favour of him not to trust
the party for the future. The meeting had been perfectly, re-
spectable, and though not so numerous as he could have'
desired to see it, there were present, for he had counted the,
numbers as well as he could, not less than twelve hundred
persons; but the fact was, the lower orders in Lincoln were •
not much in the habit of attending these meetineei.,L-The
partioular meeting in question had comprehended more; of
the Gentry, Clergy, Yeomanry, and Farmers, than were
usually found to assemble on such occasions ; anti with one
or two exceptions, it was as numerous as any meeting that
had been held in that part of the country for the last thirty
years. Certain it was that ten times as many persons were
present as had usually attended on those very proper occa-
sions, when addresses of condolence, and loyalty were to be
voted. He repeated it, the meeting had been most orderly,
and maintained that not more than twenty radicals had been
present. This was proved, RS when a radical resolution was
put, not more than 20 hands had been held up for it, though that
party had been joined by those who were previously most op.
posed to radicalism. The meeting had been fixed for a day which
almost wholly prevented the attendance from Boston, which
contained the most radical part of the population of the county.
The amendment moved by the venerable Major (Major Cart-
wright) in favour of Radical Refonn, had been received with
perfect good humour, but was by no means approved, as only
two hands had bean held up for it. The meeting however had
been nearly unanimous in 'favour of Reform in Parliament.
After this he hoped he should not again hear that this petition
did not express the sentiments of the county. If the Inhabi-
tants of the county generally were opposed to a Parliamen-
tary Reform, why did they not attend and • negative this peti-
tion ? They would have attempted this if they could have
persuaded themselves that there was the least chance of
their being successful. lie in fact believed, that those op-
, posed to Reform, hail attended in the neighbourhood, fur tie
had seen in the news-room such an assemblage of big wigs,
shovel hats, and short petticoats, as were seldom witnessed on
ordinary occasions.
Mr. CHAPLIN said the Ilon. Baronet had spoken as if he,
and others who thought as be did, had declared themselves in
favour of the proposition of Major Cartwright. Ile had done
no such thing. But he had said if he were to vote for one or
Other of the petitions, he would prefer that of the Major,
because that fairly told what he wanted, while the other,
aiming at the same purpose, was less explicit. Had the
country been in the habit of attaching., importance to such
meetings, lie bad no doubt these petitions would have been
defeated, as tb sy were when he was returned to Parliament.
He was of opinion that' there were not a thousand persons
present at the meeting. lie admitted that it was respectable,
but the promoters of it had a great deal of trouble in getting
it up.
Sir R. HERON, in explanation, said he was sorry his mean-
ing had been mistaken. He had only meant to say, that the
Hon. Gentleman preferred the Petition for a Radical Reform
to the one now presented.
Colonel JOHNSON believed the Petition expressed the sen-
timents of a very large proportion of the inhabitants of the
county of Lincoln.
The Petition was then read, and ordered to be printed.
YORK PE TI TI ON.
Lord 3IILTON presented a Petition from the Freeholders
of the County which he had the honour to represent, in favour
of a Reform in Parliament. He was sure if the Honourebles
Gentleman opposite had attended the meeting from which this
Petition emanated, ;he would not have said of it as he had
said of' one meeting at which he was not present, that it
was a farce. The meeting had been most respectable, whee
ther viewed with regard to the rank and property there re-
presented, or the numbers which attended It. The Petition
,had been unanimously carried. Ile did not mean to say that
there were no persons in the county who dissented from
the sentiments which ft expressed and when he stated it to
have been unanimously carried, he did not forget that his
Honourable Eriend opposite, and another Gentleman, had held
up their hands against it. In an election contest, ten years
ago, every corner of the county, and, he might add, every
lane and court in it, had been searched for freeholders.
The total number then ascertained to belong to the county,
amounted to. 23,700. This Petition was signed by no fewer
than 17,0110 persons. Admitting the number of Neholders
now to exceed the former number by two or three thou-
. sand, which was the utmost that could be supposed, he
should then have a right to say that this petition had been
signed by two-thirds of the freeholders of the county. His
opinion was, that it was signed by a greater proportion of the
freeholders, but he wished to put it at the lowest. In taking
the signatures the greatest possible care had been taken to ex.
elude ell who were net freeholders. The residence of each
person tied been appended. From being so nearly connected
with the county he had carefully gone through the whole of this
immense petition, and the result was, he did not believe it
contained fifty names, to which any exception could be made.
Among them he observed one or two trustees, a few freehold-
ere of Hull, and as many who had Only freeholds in the city of
York. He had observed one name, and he was told that in all
there were five or six ..beloiNiing to that sex whizb did not
commonly interfere with politics. He had now stated, he .be-
lieved, the objections that could be urged against unlit vast
' roll of which, he was the bearer. lie had.nol always been
the Advocate for Parliamentary. Referm. lie had been con•
verted to the cause, he was sorry to say it, by the conduct of
that House. Ile had hall-many companions in hie conversion
of high rank and distinguished cheracter, and among then! he
enumerated the Noble Lord, the Member, for Salisbury, and
the .Nlember for 'Sottinghamehire. He approved of the prayer
of the petition which called upon the .house to reforvi
leaving it to diem to determine what change should be effected.
many questions of policy he considered the people might
not be very good judges, but lie thought -their opinions ought
not to be-despised on the subject of Reform. This petitkin
was signed by many most respectable persons, and persons
of the mold ancient families in the eountry, lie hoped the
House would net disregard a petition like this, signed by two-

thirds of the freeholders of the county of York.; which pro-
nounced its conduct to hate been such that the petitioners
could no longer consider them to fulfil their duty as faithful red
presentatives of the peorle of England.
Air. S. NVORTLEI by no means wished to oppose the
bringing up of the petition r on the contrary, he rose to second
the motion. He bore testimony to the respectable attendance
of the meeting, and the orderly conduct of those who were
present. They had acted fairly, and the attendance was more
numerous than had been expected, considering the severity of
the season in which the meeting had been held. He also ad.
misted, that it was most respectably as well as numerously
signed. How some of the-signatures lied been obtained it wan
not worth while to enquire. He must, however, say, that if it
were signed by 27,000 persons instead of I 7,000; he should still
protest against it, as he considered it to state that which was
not the fact_((;`rtes of " Order, order !")---He considered it
to state that which was not the fact—that that House had nut
faithfully discharged its duty. Ile was glad the question of.
Parliamentary Reform was shortly to come before the House,
as the sooner the illusions connected with it, were got rid of
the better. Ile would contend that the. House had faithfully
done its duty. If he were convinced that it had not, and that
an assembly could be substituted for it, which would act a bet-
ter part, he should be lad to change his views on this subject,
as his Noble Friend hat! done. lie had heard what had in
duced the Noble Lord to change his opinions, but what he had
heard, did not satisfy him that he ought to do the same. The
respectability of the meeting, at winch this Petition had been
voted, and of the signatures attached to it, entitled. it to every-
attention on the
.part of the House. But while he stated this,
he claimed the right of entering his protest against the state-
ments which it contained.

• Mr. RIDLEY CO .BORNE thought that the modern
practice of publishing Parliamentary debates, by subjecting
public men to the influence of public opinion, had done Muth
towards a practical reform in the House of Commons. -
The petition was then brought up and read. It was thilee
hundred and eighty- feet in length-; and the unrolling it (to
read) occupied the Clerk of the 'House seven. minutes.
• Mr. SYKES (on the motion for printing) reminded the
House that the signatures to the petition had been fairly and
openly obtained, at a time 'when, from the general -Cheapness of
provisions, there, was little incitement to temporary discontent
among the people. Ile believed that for theforee of "the pre-
sent petition, the friends of reform were a good deal indebted
to the late Member for Liverpool, who now held so distin...
lnoshed a place in the Councils of the Crown. That Right
ion. Member, in a speech which he (Mr. Sykes) certainly•had
not beard, but of which he had seen copies, had thought fit
pointedly to allude to the Reformers of the County of York.
The County of York (by its'petition)• now answered the Right
Hon. Uentleman. Ile might add, too, that the cause of Re-
form had been not a little aided by the conduct of the Hon.
Member for Yorkshire (Mr. Stuart Wortley), who had given
his vote last Session, and with his usual manliness sustairkd
that vote by it .speech, in favour of the retaining two. Post-.
masters-general.:. •

A IRE 51 twit. from under the gallery, whose name we could
not learn, opposed the petition and the principle of Parlia-
mentary Reform generally—The petition was then ordered
be printed.