The Sun.
London, England, 1847-06-04 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY ETENING, JUNE 4, 1847.

RAILWAY COMMITTEES.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(YESTERDAY.)

GROUP 111.
LONDON, BRIGHTON, AND SOUTH COAST
(LONDON BRIDGE STATION ENEARGE-
IIENT AND ARRANGEMENTS).
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)
The Committee was engaged up till four o'clock in hearing
evidence in support of the alterations and extensions of the
station, in order to accommodate the great and increasing
traffic of the company.
The Committee then adjourned till to-morrow at twelve.

Sarah Morgan and Thomas Deacon, two persons hav-
ing stalls in the market, corroborated this statement, and
denied most positively that the complainant used any bad
language towards the prisoner.
The prisoner said that the old man had an old griev-
ance against him, and was in the constant habit of abus-
ing him in most filthy language; but this morning he
had an engagement to work for one of the complainant's
masters, and whilst passing him in the gangway he un-
fortunately pushed up against the old man, who abused
him, and followed him, pushing him, and nearly threw
a load off which he had on his head. He pushed him
and he fell, and as he recovered himself seized him by
the sleeve of his shirt and tore it completely out. Be-
ing much exasperated he certainly did strike him, but he
did not kick him. He was very sorry that he had struck
the old man, but he was very willing to make him any
compensation.
Mr. JARDINE could not allow that, but he must be
taught to control his temper, and not knock a poor man
about in that way. He should commit him to take his
trial at the sessions, as it was not a case he could deal
with.

STATE OF TRADE.

MANCHESTER, JUNE I.—Since Friday last there has
been a pretty fair inquiry for goods; but as manufac-
turers generally demand increased rates in some propor-
tion to the advance in the cotton market, the actual
business has been limited. Prices, though rather irre-
gular, have been generally rather higher than those of
last week. For yarn there has been very little demand,
but the spinners have been very firm in prices, and the
few orders executed have been at rather higher rates.
So far as we can learn, there is no material change in
the extent of short-time working ; but we understand
that some of the spinners and manufacturers, who have
hitherto worked twelve hours a day, have determined to
reduce their time to ten hours, as soon as the Bill now
before the House of Lords is passed. This resolution,
if extensively acted upon, will cause a sensible diminu-
tion in the production of goods and yarn.
ROCHDALE, MAY 31.—The flannel market is quite as
dull as it has been for some weeks past. The business
transacted has been upon a very limited scale, and the
prices extremely low. The wool market continues in-
active, and prices in foreign wool have a downward
tendency.
HALIFAX, MAY 29.—The rapid fall in the price of
corn and the cheering state of the weather have thrown
a more hopeful feeling over the hall to-day ; but we
cannot report any
.actual improvement either in the de-
mand for goods or in prices. For yarn the demand con-
tinues in the same languid state, being greatly below' the
power of production ; and the prices are so wretched
that, rather than submit to further reductions, spinners
would stop their machinery to yet a greater extent.
For long wool the demand continues on the most limited
scale ; and prices are rather receding. Short wool re-
mains about the same ; the smallness of the quantity
produced tending to prevent that reduction in price which
the depressed state of the clothing trade would other-
wise render inevitable.

HUDDERSFIELD, JUNE I.—We have had more buyers,
and everything looks more cheerful than they have done
for some weeks past. It is hoped by many that the
worst period is past. More business has been done in
wool, and the foreign warehouses continue busy with
American orders.

--- ---
LEEDS, JUNE had last week, on account of
the holidays, a very quiet market ; and to-day the busi-
ness done at our cloth halls wore a similar appearance.
There is an opinion abroad that wool, like corn, is to
come down in price ; and being on the eve of the Ger-
man wool fairs, many transactions are suspended until
this point is ascertained.—Manchester Guardian.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT
HOUSE OF LORDS, June 3.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool-
sack at Five o'clock.
MESSAGE FROM THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Messengers from the House of Commons brought up
several Bills, which were ordered to lie on the table.
CLERGY OFFENCES BILL.
The Bishop of LONDON moved that this Bill be
referred to a Select Committee.—Agreed to.
The members of the Committee were then nominated.
PORTUGAL.
Lord BROUGHAM asked when the papers respecting
Portugal would be on the table ?
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said he would tell
him to-morrow.
LUNATIC ASYLUMS BILL.
This Bill, on the motion of Lord CAMPBELL, went
through Committee.
HERITABLE JURISDICTIONS (SCOTLAND)
BILLS.
Lord CAMPBELL rose to move the second reading
of the five Bills which had been brought before their
Lordships on this subject. They were all of a technical
character, so that he need not trouble their Lordships
with many observations. And after recapitulating the
titles, which are—Service of Heirs Bill, Transference
of Lands Bill, Burgage of Tenures Bill, Heritable
Securities for Debt Bill, and Crown Charters
Bill—the Noble Lord briefly explained their characters,
which are indicated by their titles. He would 'conclude
by stating that the Transference of Lands Bill was of
particular importance, for at the present time no land-
owner could transfer an acre of land without a very con-
siderable expense an evil which was peculiarly injurious
to the country.
Lord BROUGHAM entirely approved of the Bills.
They would get rid of many prevailing defects in the
present system, and simplify and encourage the law in
many of its details. He, therefore, highly approved of
these measures, and he hoped shortly to see them car-
ried into effective operation. There were several amend-
ments which he could suggest, but he should defer them
until they got into Committee on the Bills.
The Bills were then read a second time.
• POOR REMOVAL (ENGLAND AND
SCOTLAND) BILL.
On the motion of Lord CAMPBELL, this Bill was
read a second time, and ordered to be committed on
Monday next.
POOR RELIEF SUPERVISION (IRELAND)
BILL.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE moved the second
reading of this Bill, and briefly explained the objects of
the Bill, which was to improve the administration of
the poor-laws in Ireland.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH objected to the Bill
as going to effect a total change in the mode of carrying
out the poor-laws. Originally the administration of the
law was in the hands of parties unconnected with the
Government, but now it was proposed to place it under
the control of the Executive Government. The result
would be that the machinery for carrying out the law
would vary and change with every new Government that
held office. There was another evil in the practical
working of the poor-law. It was no doubt well that the
board should be made up of men of all parties. But
he had great reason to suspect that it would
be uppermost in the mind of those at that
board that the Government would listen rather to its
friends than those who happened to oppose it in politics.
He would then oppose this law for carrying the poor-law
into effect as he had opposed the poor-law itself.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said the Noble Earl
seemed so far at variance with general opinion, that it
was the experience of the last five or six years
that the public generally were determined to dismiss all
party feeling and difference on a subject of the nature
of the poor-laws. As to the other topics mentioned by
the Noble Earl, he thought he was in error.
Lord BROUGHAM thought that the change proposed
was very portentous, inasmuch as it made the poor-law
a Government department. He considered that the Bill
was making the poor-law a Government department.
He did think the administration of the law ought to be
placed in the hands of a high officer with a large salary.
It was not stated whether this Government officer was to
be removable with the Ministry or. not. He believed
that it was not so intended ; but if so there would
be a great difficulty occasioned, which he could
not see the way to obviate. This was evident,
for this department being a portion of the Government
it was liable to all the attacks on the men of the day,
and such being the case it was surely plain that a
vast mischief must ensue, for the Government
must of necessity protect its officers, and what-
ever the guardians might have to complain of,
whatever the overseers might have to complain of, and
whatever the poor might have to complain of, no remedy
whatever could be afforded by the men in office.—
(Hear, hear.) Of all things, then, he thought that
anything could be worse than making this board an
object of attack on the one hand and a matter of defence
on the other.
Earl GREY said it was impossible for any Member of
that or the other House of Parliament to have watched
the discussion which had recently taken place upon
the poor-law, without being convinced that the time had
arrived when some change ought to be made in the
constitution of the board to whom the administration of
the law was entrusted. In the other House of Parlia-
ment, within the last two years, every conceivable point
in connexion with the administration of the law had been
freely discussed, and the Secretary of State for the
Home Department had been forced upon many occasions
to defend and justify the acts of officers with whom he
had little or nothing to do. Did it not strike Noble
Lords, therefore, that it would be introducing
imnrov..---«eyctnm_zr ..c
mstrators of the poor-law had seats is the other House
of Parliament, in order that they might be prepared, on
their own individual responsibility, to explain or defend
any act connected with the administration of the law
that might be called into question by parties either
within or without the walls of Parliament ? In the
other House of Parliament, among all who had any ex-
perience of the administration of public affairs, there was
a unanimous feeling that the administration of this law
should be in intimate connexion with the Executive Go-
vernment.
Lord BROUGHAM said a few words in explanation.
Earl St. GERMANS could not see how this measure
would be made to work beneficially. He thought it per-
fectly impossible for the Secretary of Ireland to attend
to the regular duties of his office, and give any conside-
ration to the administration of this law.—(Hear, hear.)
His experience of Ireland led him to this conclusion. At
the present time the Chief Secretary was perfectly over-
whelmed with business, and he would not be able to give
his attention to any more.
The Earl of WICKLOW did not like the turn which
the debate had taken, in Noble Lords intimating that the
principle of Government supervision was objectionable,
in the Bill progressing in the other House, as applied to
England, but that it might be made to operate very well
in Ireland. One thing he decidedly objected to; it was
the monstrous power given to the Poor-law ommis-
sioner, and: he supported the present Bill, so far as it
introduced the check of the Government over his pro-
ceedings.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE thought the Bill objection-
able. The Chief Secretary was generally one half of the
year absent from Ireland, and the Under-Secretary for
Ireland had his hands so full of business, that it would
be impossible for him to give any attention to the
administration of the law. Practically, therefore, the
whole management would be in the hands of the Poor-
law Commissioner.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM hoped his Noble Friend who
had introduced the present Bill would give its provisions
a re-consideration. He thought them decidedly objec-
tionable. With regard to the measure now in progrfss,
in the other House, he thought it was one also which
had not been well digested, and would work unsatisfac-
torily. The most serious evils would arise, in his opinion,
from making the administration of the law dependent coni
the changes that might from time to time take place n
the Government.
Earl LUCAN made a few observations, which were
inaudible in the gallery.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE briefly replied,
stating that the Government would fully consider the
objections stated between now and the day of Committee,
and he would also take care that every Noble Lurd was
duly summoned.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to
be committed pro forma on Monday next.
MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS.
Messengers from the House of Commons brought up
several Bills, which were ordered to lie on the table.
POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE moved the considera-
tion of the Commons' amendments to the Poor Relief
(Ireland) Bill. There were two amendments, one re-
lating to the residence of persons requiring relief, and
the other to the jurisdiction of ea -• officio guardians.
The Earl of WICKLOW had no objection to the
first amendment, but he could not consent to the second.
Lord MONTEAGLE complained that the House of
Commons had made no provision in the Bill for the
education of the children in workhouses, but he trusted
this omission would be supplied next year. He thought
it was unworthy of the House of Commons to restrain
that House from introducing reasonable alterations into
Bills by making them money Bills, but with regard to
this Bill he contended that the amendments their Lord-
ships made in this Bill in no way infringed the privileges
of the House of Commons.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE agreed with his
Noble Friend that the amendments their Lordships
introduced into the Bill could not be considered as an
infringement of the privileges of the House of Commons,
and expressed a hope that some arrangement might ere
long be come to which should obviate the raising of such
an objection in future. He must, at the same time
regret that no provision had been made by the other
House of Parliament for education of children in work-
houses, but he could promise his Noble Friend that the
omission should not be lost sight of.
After a few words from the Earl of DEVON the
amendments were put and agreed to.
LANDED PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE moved the conside •
ration of the Commons' amendments to this Bill. The
amendments made were rather numerous, but the one
ho regretted the most was the striking out of the clause
which provided for the erection of mills and other build-
ings of a similar description.
Lord ASIONTEAGLE thought that the amendments
to the MI now under consideration would be fatal to its
operation .as far as Connaught was concerned.
The amendments were then agreed to.
RAILWAY BILLS.
The Ma rquis of LANSDOWNE then moved that a
Select Coin mittee be appointed to consider whether it is
expediept eAat any measures should be adopted for susci
pending fu ether proceedings in all or any of the railroad
Bills in the . present session, and for enabling the par-
ties, under certain conditions, to proceed with the same
in a future i iession of Parliament ; and also, whether it
is Advisable that any further provisions should be made

in the standing orders of this House relative to Bills
for the construction of railroads ; and to report their
opinion thereupon to this House from to time.
Agreed to.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 3.
The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four
o'clock.

THIRD READINGS.
The following Bills were read a third time and passed:
Ambergate, Nottingham, and Boston and Eastern Junc-
tion Railway (Alteration of Line and Branches to
Nottingham).
Caledonian Railway (Branches to Canonbie, &c.)
Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway (No. 2).
Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway, and
Ayrshire and Bridge of Weir Railway (No. 3).
London and South- Western Railway (Andover to the
Bishopstoke and Salisbury Branch, &c.)
Macduff Harbour.
Metropolitan Sewage Manure.
'ewport, Abergavenny, and Hereford Railway Devia-
tions.
Newport, Abergavenny, and Hereford Railway (Exten-
sion to Taff Vale Railway).
North Staffordshire Railway (Alterations and Branches).
Swansea and Amman Junction Railway.
Waterford and Limerick Railway.
REPORTS.
The following reports were brought up, and ordered
to lie on the table.—
British American Land Company.
Direct London and Portsmouth, Brighton and Chiches-
ter, London, Brighton, and South Coast, and London
and South-Western Railways.
Direct London and Portsmouth Railway.
Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway.
Gloucester and Hereford Railway and Canal Purchase.
Great Western Railway (Amendment and Extensions.)
Leeds, Dewsbury, and Manchester Railway (Extension
to Wakefield and Junction at Methley, with the
Wakefield, Pontefract, and Goole, and the York and
North Midland Railways).
Leeds Central Railway Station.
London and North-Western Railway (Lime-street,
Liverpool, Station, Extension, &c.)
Manchester, Buxton, and Matlock, and Midlands Junc-
tion Railway (Deviations).
Manchester and Leeds Railway (Branch from the Hud-
dersfield and Sheffield Junction Railway to Barnsley,
and Extension of Holmfirth Branch).
Manchester and Leeds Railway (Alteration of Levels of
Brighouse Branch of the West Riding Union Rail-
ways, and new Line into Leeds).
Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire Railway
(Branch at Bugsworth to join the Peak Forest Canal
Tramway and Amendment of Acts).
Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire Railway (Branch
from Ashton under Lyne to Oldham).
Midland Railway (Syston and Peterborough Railway
Deviations, and Approach to Manton Station).
Oxford, Worcester, and Wolverhampton Railway (N 0.2)
(Extensions and Amendment).
Strathtay and Breadalbane Extension Railway.
Van Diemen's Land Company.
York and North Midland Railway (Harrogate Branch,
Extension, and Terminus).
The reports on the following Bills were further con-
sidered and agreed to:—
Ayrshire Roads.
Falmouth Waterworks.
Glasgow, Paisley, and Greenock Railway (Branch to the
Caledonian Railway and Diversion of Canal).
Lancashire, Cheshire, and North Wales Drainage and
Inclosure Companies Incorporation.
Manchester and Birmingham, and North Staffordshire
Junction Railway.
Scottish Midland Junction Railway (Amendment and
Branch to Laurencekirk).
Shropshire Union Railways and Canal (Lease to the
London and North-Western Railway Company).
Sunderland Improvement, Markets, and Bridge.
BELFAST IMPROVEMENT BILL.

Mr. R. SPOONER presented a petition against the
Belfast Improvement Bill, which was ordered to be re-
ferred to the Committee on the Bill.
COVENTRY, BANBURY, AND OXFORD
JUNCTION RAILWAY.
On the motion of Mr. WILLIAMS, it was ordered that
the Committee of the Coventry, Banbury, and Oxford
Junction Railway Bill, have leave to report this day.
TH ADIES CONSERVANCY BILL.
On the motion of Mr. WARD for the further consi-
deration of the report on this Bill,
Sir R. INGLIS wished to know if the Bill had re-
ceived the consent of her Majesty's Attorney-General.
There was a surrender by the Bill of the rights of the
Crown to a private body, which he objected to. There
could be no doubt that the Corporation of London had a
right to both sides of the river, but he was not aware
that the Crown had denuded itself of the right on the
soil of the river.
The ATTORNEY- GENERAL said that, instead of
fighting out the rights of the Crown in a court of law, it
had been considered desirable to come to some arrange
ment in order to effect a great public good, and to carry
out that arrangement was the object of the present Bill.
Mr. HUME was in favour of the Bill, but against the
mode in which the objects were to be carried out. He
objected to so many aldermen being members of the
board, considering that the City had no interest in
the measure, but the merchants of London had.
He considered such a board would be altogether—ineffi-
cient, and it ought to be revised ; the acting managing
board should have a portion of gentlemen representing
the shipping and mercantile interests of the port of
London. He concluded by moving that the Bill be re-
committed_ with the .10.. ..r vau,,
being reduced from 19 to 12, and that four of their mem-
bers should be connected with the shipping interest.
Mr. WARD opposed the amendment on the ground
that as all the funds for the improvement of the river
would have to be raised on the credit of the Corporation
of London, it was but right that they should have the
management. 'Were the City authorities favourable
to the alteration, he would have no objection to it.
He had asked an eminent engineer what would be his
estimate of expense for those improvements, and he had
laid it at 350,0001. Those were the objects contemplated
by the Bill. It appeared to him an immaterial point
whether the conservators consisted of 19 or 12, and
therefore he should oppose the amendment of the Hon.
Member for Montrose.
The Earl of LINCOLN said that it was universally
concealed that the objects of the Bill could not be found
fault with; the only matter for the consideration of the
House was how to carry out these objects, and to re-
concile the conflicting interests connected with the sub-
ject. The Hon. the Secretary to the Admiralty said that
the present state of things had continued so long, that
no other' interest than the city of London could now be
represented. But he could show the House that
a different course from the present had been pur-
sued in the case of the river Mersey. From the
moment that understanding ceased another arrange-
ment had been entered into, which gave entire satis-
faction to the corporation of Liverpool. He wished to
bring this under the notice of the Hon. Secretary for
the Admiralty; and though he did not feel ready to throw
any reflections on his conduct, he yet might say that he
had not voted as be himself would have done if ho bad
been at the head of the Woods and Forests. He felt
assured, therefore, that the Bill never could give
satisfaction, and he could not conceive that the
amendment of the Honourable Member for Montrose
would, in any sufficient extent, remedy the evil, and
he should, therefore, vote against it.
Lord MORPETH said that, when he entered upon
the duties of the office which he held he found consi-
derable doubt, resting upon the circumstances on which
,the Bill was founded, and he regretted that the speech
of the Noble Earl had shown that there was not
the same spirit of amicability which had formerly been
evinced. (The Noble Lord then read a letter of Mr.
Pemberton, the solicitor for the Bill, in which that
gentleman stated that he did not expect the suit upon, it
to be terminated for perhaps less than five years.)
It was stated by the City authorities that this suit pre-
vented them carrying into effect certain improvements
in the river, which otherwise they would be prepared
to undertake. He entertained no doubt whatever
that the funds derivable from the use of the river
ought to be applied to its improvement. Whether
there were means to compel the City autho-
rities to undertake these improvements, he could not
venture to say, but he had agreed to the provisions of
this Bill, believing that it was the safest and easiest
course to effect that object, and he trusted after this
statement the progress of the Bill would not be impeded.
The improvements would be carried on under the super-
intendence of the Board of Conservancy, and Govern-
ment would also take care to see that they were efficiently
performed. It was provided by the Bill that the receipts and
expenditure should be first laid before the superior board,
and that all the works should be subjected to an en-
gineer, who would also see that the board carried into
effect all they were bound to undertake by the Bill.
The details of the expenditure would be also laid before
Parliament, and if any circumstance should hereafter
arise of a nature to require legislative interference, Par-
liament might be called upon for its adjudication.
Mr. DUNCOMBE was not aware, after the speech of
the Noble Lord opposite, how the Bill would detract
from the character of the Corporation. He was of this
opinion particularly after the example set them by the
corporation of the river Mersey. His Hon. Friend
wished to strike off seven aldermen, but the superior
board alluded to in the course of the discussion professed
to control the aldermanic board. Powers were to
be taken to levy taxes to the amount of 350,0004 for
the purpose of this conservancy. (Mr. Ward made some
explanation, which was inaudible in the gallery.) Well,
at any rate, with the one shilling fee sought to
be imposed, there would be taxation of the public
in some way or other ; at any rate it would bear
heavily on the consumers of coal—(Hear, hear)—but
the principal reason which led him to oppose the Bill
was this, that it was a public and not a private Bill—
it was a public Bill to all intents and purposes:
it was an important Bill, and one which would
materially affect the trade and commerce of the pity
of London—it was a public Bill and ought to be
submitted to the whole House.—(Hear, hear.) Besides,
no one knew anything about the Bill, and he thought
the public was indebted to the Noble Lord (Lord Lin-
coln) for his statement with respect to the Bill. Even if
it came back from the Committee with a recommendation
that the seven aldermen should be knocked off, he should
still look upon it with suspicion,
Mr. WILLIAMS did not think the Bill was so ob-
jectionable as theedo
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so by rendering them an efficient body. Syo manyg com-
plaints were made against the management of the river,
that, in 1836, a Committee of Inquiry was granted,

in which such charges were fully proved ; in fact, they
could not speak to a single shipowner upon the sub-
ject without being confirmed in the general belief
that the present board was wholly inefficient. If
they were going to make a change in the
body they should include shipowners and merchants.
Such a class was not to be found in the corpora-
tion. and such a class had an interest in the navi-
gation of the river, which the corporation had not.
This was a question which seriously affected the public,
considering the enormous amount of traffic which took
place even above bridge. There were not powers sulk
cient in the Bill to remove the abuses which existed, ana
therefore this interference would do more harm than
good.
Alderman COPELAND then rose, but was for some
time inaudible in the gallery in consequence of the low
tone in which he spoke. He thought that it was an ids"
provement upon the previous Bill, and he would vote in
support of it.
Mr. COWPER said that the present Bill was a de- :
cided improvement upon the former, because it gave
check upon the corpration.
Mr. S. WORTLEY said that this Bill had taken the
parties interested by surprise, and he should support the
recommittal, in order to give time for its consideration.
The House then divided, and on our re-admission we
found the numbers were—
For the amendment
Against it 65
Majority for the amendment —6
Monday next was fixed for the recommittal of the
Bill.
After a few words from Mr. LAW and Mr. WLll'l4lll
Lord LINCOLN objected to the Bill, as it did To
give private parties, who might be affected by is, w •
notice which they should have.
The Bill was then ordered to be recommitted on Men'
day next.
Mr. HUME wished to know when the House vi°11...1""
go into Committee of Supply, and whether the
which he had demanded in relation to Portugal irow
be in the hands of Hon. Members on that day!,
Is old,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIEQu.r4--, of
that if possible the House would go into Comm red
Supply on Monday evening, and that the papers
to would be in the hands of Hon. Members on that cla/a
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER lo
that when the papers were laid on the table that bey
would move for a committee immediately, and if rt a
were laid on the table on Monday he would move or
committee that evening. nos.
Sir R. PEEL said that as it would be Wall coy
sible for all the Members of the Committees, ra.h—eii.
of them being engaged on Committees, to read " 00
papers on Monday, if those papers were deliver he
Saturday night it would obviate this difficulty,
thought the best course would be to wait till to-113v." he
refer
Mr. HUME said that under these circumstacneS
would wait till to-morrow.
The motion was accordingly withdrawn. ps then
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQIPmf the
gave notice that he would move the third reaming
Loan Discount Bill to- morrow.
JUVENILE OFFENDERS BILL- op
Mr. ESCOTT gave notice that upon the bringing re
of the report of the Punishment of Juvenile Offender.
Bill that he would move for the omission of the clause
authorising the punishment of flogging.
PRISONS' BILL.
nunitSee
On the order of the day for going into Co
on this Bill being read, of
Mr. EWART presented a petition from the t0wi1:...5
Maitland and Newcastle, in New South Wales, figs'
the renewal of the system of transportation. do
Sir G. GREY then rose to move that the Roils-
resolve itself into a Committee of the whole Rouse graP:
this Bill. The present Bill, with the one which 1301)
diately followe,l it (the Custody of Offenders .sori
formed together a comprehensive seheme of PriTbe
reform proposed by the present Governnient.
eat
present Bill proposed to unite under one managea`o,
the government of the Parkhurst, Milbank, and re 18,42
ville prisons. Pentonville was by an Act passed in who
placed under a board of unpaid commissioners, 70
were appointed by the Crown, and were not to 13 e, the;e
than seven, or more than eleven in number, two
members of this Committee being inspectors of Prroso
Parkhurst was a prison for juvenile offenders, and of
placed under the general direction of the Secretar
5y
State in 1838. Now it was proposed by the PF,!, to
Bill to place all these prisons under one Act, sionn".o.
that under which Pentonville was at present Inagte, of
As experience, however, had shown the impossib'il'i b
the various details of management being attended to 2.
unpaid commissioners, many of whom had other. 2:d
pations to attend to, it was proposed that there srua
be one paid commissioner. It was also proposed bye,l_l
alteration made in the Bill, since it left the other Flour
that the hulks and other places of confinement for 05,
reception of criminals sentenced to transportation sholyi;
be placed under the commissioner, and that. b_,,
duties of the superintendent of convict criratee.:
who had lately resigned his office, should
future be discharged by the new board.—(Re.,‘„, •
The second Bill—the Custody of Offenders Bill--Prt'h
posed to place Irish convicts on the same footing
respect to transportation, as the Act with respect to
transportation of convicts belonging to this country IT
passed before the Act of Union. The first clause ftre:.
posed to place them on the same footing as the courin,r.
of this country; and the second, the removal from toy
county prisons the criminals at present confined in thett
Some apprehension had been excited on this subject wl,ll
respect to the expense, but he believed that the amen"_,
ment he should propose before he sat down, and the es-
planation which he should give to the House, would
effectually destroy the objections to this part of the Dili'
to a0.,.1 the g-nerni nud-the more
important question—namely, the question of secondary
punishment. In approaching this part of the subject, he
did so with a perfect idea of his inadequacy to do justice
to it. Of the importance of the subject he believed,
every one whom he addressed was fully persuaded. Of
the difficulties attending it, none save those fully con'
versant with the subject, could be aware ; and also
j
conversant with the course which had been adopt"'
with respect to those offenders during the last few Years'
He believed that his Hon. Friend, the Member for
Montrose, considered that the question was free from
difficulty. He considered that prevention was better
than cure," and that a sound, moral, and religious edit.'
cation would do much to promote this end, and to
..`"
move the necessity of so much prison discipline, aa /Ir.--
proposed. He quite agreed with him as to the iniPoir:
tance of education—its importance had been fully
mitted by the vote which the House had come to in the
course of the session—that it was the duty of the grate
to promote the education of the people in every 01E' i
its power. Still, whatever steps they take, pr
would still be necessary, and since they were necessarli
they must consider the best way to deal with them, an
ad
e.
the best mode of discipline they could adopt. The:
neral attention which had been directed to the subject ...
evinced what he considered a most satisfactory feature'
that by example and punishment offenders are deteril.
from the commission of crime, because the penal rigur,
of the law possessed so much terror that protect The
life and property was thereby greatly promoted. .i.fo
object of the Bill was one of such importance that far
Government ought to shrink from carrying it out tts.lol,
as possible. In proposing any new scheme it Was, j„b..
possible to avoid meeting with many difficulties ape ("or
jections to any innovation upon the old system. IS- "-by
punishment being inflicted in
years since he was afraid that but little was done #l7O
the law for the future reformation of offenders----
culprit from the future commission
labour, t to
and
when i n e
the ccu reartienal
without using any means besides what would deter the
tion wee,
sphere, many of the severities of
beyond the mere addition of deportationa transorts ills of
ere
remitted. When the present
a to the 10
personal liberty, and the compulsory
into office, the first question
. performance of
reachedyinapwlirshoonptoorftciorinmteo. ithewe
ro:sh @del iiniffic
thatftohrceierdnis
another
Government first her11
Majesty's Ministers, in reference to the punishment of
criminals, was whether the present system of transpor-
tation could be continued with any degree f b fig SO
that society whose laws the criminals hade
ouent:acd;
Under the old system, as soon as the criminal reached
itselfh Inu
ne pn ot newEcame
another part of the world, the compulsory labour was
not enforced by the Government, but it was carried out
by individuals to whom the convict was assigned, as a
labourer for a certain period. In many instances, the
convict, so far from being punished, was actually bettered
in his condition, whilst the greatest of miseries was in-

..ieted upon others, who had, perhaps, not been ae
abandoned a criminal as the first. A report, which was
presented in 1838, recommended that transportation to
New South Wales should cease, and that the punish-
ment of criminals should bo inflicted in penitentiaries at
home and abroad, where their compulsory labours would
be productive of some benefit to the communiti.
Shortly after this report being presented, transtar"
tation to New South Wales was discontinued. "An
Diemen's Land, Norfolk Island, Bermuda, tan; 17
Gibraltar, only remaining as places to wu'e-e
convicts from this country were sent. The result OF
these arrangements was not quite satisfactory, and i:
was then proposed that the number of convicts se
n"
abroad should be diminished, and that no convict sen"
tenced to seven years' transportation should be sent out
of the country. Shortly after that period it was deter-
mined, to abandon altogether the hulk system, and that
alteration necessarily involved a material increase in 01
number of convicts sent abroad. That increase had
brought on many evils, which he did not seethe p 0
8s
w
Ality of remedying whilst the present system existed."
(Hear, hear.) The effect of the present system of re;
forming criminals had been far from satisfactory,
that he attributed to the custom of making the men work
together in large masses,
without any efficient separi
tion, or, indeed, any means which would binder contatel'
nation from one class to another. He did not impute
r
any blame to those under whom that system had been,
carried out—on the contrary,
he was quite aware that
there had existed on their part a very anxious dealt* to
carry the law into effect as fully and as beneficiAly s*possible. Lord Stanley had, in consequence of ti,;,,e Wive
of the old system, proposed that there should be five dif-
ferent stages of punishment in the colonies, and that the
criminal should be encouraged in the hope of ameliorat-
ing his condition by good conduct, whilst the fear of in-
creasing its hardships should be held out to pre-
vent any misconduct or recklessness. Lord Stanley
had proposed as one of these stages, that pro-
bation gangs should be formed of those prisoner'
who had passed the first stage of their punishment
in Norfolk Island. These gangs were to be under the
direct superintendence of Government. The next star
was to give them probation passes, enabling theAN
work for private parties for food and clothing, but with-.
out money wages. This system was carried out under
the directicn of Lord Stanley, and for a time it appeared
to work favourably, but before ho adverted to
eventual result, ho would call their attention to the old
system of transportation. That system, in they rstowed
112:
stance, inflicted the punishment of deportation, ll
by coerced labour, followed by a conditional pard°l4
which enabled a man to travel whither he would,
.pia
vided he did not return to his native country before :la
ft "