The Sun.
London, England, 1841-10-01 00:00:00

upon, and the respective dates of such adjudications ; .
the mode in which such claims were agreed to be paid,
and have been paid and satisfied ; the number of Commis-
sioners, Secretaries, and Clerks engaged in such Com-
mission ; the amount of the expenses of such Commis-
sion, specifying the Commissioners' salaries, and those
of the Secretaries and Clerks ; return of the expenses,
if any, which were allowed, and to whom, in respect of
the prosecution of such claims, and how paid ; was any
and what deduction made from the claimants,
for the purpose of paying agents, or any other
expenses ; Anglo-Portuguese claimants ; the date of the
disbanding of the respective naval and military forces ;
the date of the mixed British and Portuguese Commis-
sion, appointed to examine and decide upon the claims
of British subjects who served in the army or nary
during the war of restoration in Portugal ; copy of the
rules for the guidance of the Commissioners ; the date of
the installation in office of the Commissioners; the date of
the decision of theßelgian Minister on the question of con-
tracts ; the date of the commencement of the reception of
claims ; the number of days, and of hours per day, during
which each Commissioner respectively has been engaged
in the labours of the Commission ; whether any accounts
have been examined by one Commissioner in the absence
of the' other ; the number of claims received, and the
number, if any, investigated and adjudicated upon ; and
of claimants to whom notice of such adjudication has
been given ; the number of secretaries, clerks, or others
employed under the Commissioners, the dates of their
several appointments, with their respective salaries ;
the salaries of . the Commissioners, and from what
scurce paid ; together with an account of all other
expenses incidental to the Commission. The Noble Lord
reforred, in a very low tone of voice, to the proceedings
which had taken place with respect to these claims. 1-le
said, after the assurances Which had been given, he had
entertained hopes that they would have been brought
to a speedy termination. Here were two Commis-
simiers, two Secretaries, and about twelve Clerks,
employed, who had under consideration nearly 1,400
claims of claimants resident only in London. The Com-
missioners stated that they could not adjudicate upon more
than 50 per month of the Portuguese claims. At that rate
the final adjudication would not be completed under two
.years. When he compared the prospects at present with the
expectations which had been held out of a' speedy adjudi-
cation, he must say he felt extremely disappointed. His
object, in reference to the Anglo-Spanish claims,
was to show how much more rapidly the investiga-
tion in that case had been concluded. Although
the Commission had had to decide upon twice the
number of claims, it concluded its labours within twelve
months. The Portuguese claims would not be decided
within less than two or three years ; he had, there-
fore, moved for a table of returns with respect
to both Commissions. He entreated her Majesty's Go-
vernment to adopt some measure for bringing the whole
matter to a speedy -termination. Without wishing to
excite the feelings of the House, he would ask them
to coilsider the miserable condition of these men, exposed
as they wore to protracted suffering and disappointment.
If there was any part of the motion to which her Ma-
jesty's 'Ministers objected he would modify it, but at
the same time he would be sorry to see it so modified as
not to bring out the fact that the Portuguese Commis-
sion now sitting was pursuing a course totally at variance
with that which was pursued with respect to the Spanish
claimants.

Sir C. B. VERE seconded the motion.
Sir R. PEEL said that the chief remark he had to
make was, that the returns moved for by the Noble
Lord had very much the air of being
had
by
a claimant—by a party who had (been dis-
appointed by the delay in adjudicating by.
the Commissioners. Several of the returns he objected
to, and others he did not ; but he thought the Noble
Lord ought not to tall for any returns that would imply
a reflection upon the Commissioners. If, however, the
Noble Lord would withdraw his motion for that day, he
(Sir R. Reel) would take an opportunity of considering
what information he could with propriety give.
After a few observations from Lord PALMERSTON and
Lord RANELAGH.
Lord SANDON withdrew his motion.

Lord W. PAGET, by leave of the House, begged to
postpone the motion of which he had given notice, re-
lating to the number of the wives and children of soldiers
now serving in the army, in consequence of not being
furnished with some evidence necessary for his purpose.
Postponed sine die.
Sir R. PEEL brought up some papers relating to the
importation of foreign grain.
Dr. BOWRING then rose to move for copies o
correspondence between the Home-office and the
Poor-law Commissioners on the subject of distress
in Bolton; with the Report of the Assistant Commis-
sioner sent by her Majesty's Government to inquire into
alleged case of destitution and death, referred to in
the debates in Parliament, during the present Session.
After the rule laid down by the Chair last night, it be-
came the duty of every Member of the House to take
care that in any case he brought before the House he
should avoid all exaggeration. He stood in the position
of having made to the House some statements which so in-
terested the sympathies of the Right Hon. Baronet oppo-
site as to induce him to institute local inquiries,
with a view to the investigation of the facts, as
stated by him, of the distress existing in Bolton.
He could not but own that it was peculiarly incumbent
upon him to take care that the statements were properly
authenticated. He was anxious, from being locally
connected with the district, nut to expose him-
self to the charge of exaggerated statements
or high colouring. His connexion with Bolton
was of a peculiar nature. He went there a stranger,
and his election was a proof of the great distress ex•
isting in that town. He had been induced to make the
present motion, because one of the Guardians of the
Bolton Union' in a manner most uncourteous and
uncalled for, had ventured to reproach his (Dr. Bow-
ringes)personal veracity,and to represent him as unworthy
of belief. At a public meeting which he attended, a
statement of the distress was made which had harrowed
up his heart, and he was determined, if he found that
statement borne out by the fact, to represent it in the
House. of Commons, and to plead the cause of the
oppressed poor in the presence of the privileged rich.
The gentleman who made that statement had been one of
the Board of Guardians. He was a member of the
Society of Friends, and had fallen under the dis-
pleasure of the Honourable Member for Knares-
borough, as belonging to a body of men who
were remarkable for " professing humanity." Now,
in his opinion, there never was a society which had
made itself so distinguished as the advocates of huma-
nity, and the best interests of the poor, as that of the
Quakers, and the gentleman to whom the Honourable
Member for Knaresborough alluded, was one of those
who "did good by stealth and blushed to find it fame."
He applied to the Guardians, Messrs. Ashurst and
Naseby, requesting they would enable him to ascertain
what the real state of the people was—what their con-
dition and sufferings—that he might know whether the
sorrowful tales they told at the public meeting could be
borne out by facts, Mr. Naseby and he (Dr. B.) accord-
ingly began to visit the suffering poor in their wretched
cellars. He made a memorandum on that occasion
of what he had seen and heard, and he would trespass On
the indulgence of the House while reading one. of those
records which he then prepared. The first case was that
of a poor man aged 40 years, his wife 36. They had ten
children, seven of whom were dead. He had been
twenty-one weeks without work, He had 2s. 6d.
per week parish relief,, and some time before
50s. had been given them ; but all that money was, on
the occasion of his (Dr. Bowring's) visit, spent, and they
had pledged all they' possessed. Their eldest boy was
thirteen years of age, and, when employed, got 4s. per
week. The family was in nearly a perishing condition,
and they had sold all their furniture to procure
the necessaries of life.—(Hear, hear.) In pursuing
those inquiries, they (Dr. Bowring and the Guardians)
were accompanied by such a multitude, that he wee
obliged to give up his object lest he should be Attltsed
of ostentation, and endeavouring to tire is Character to
his conduct far from his thoughts an feeling ior he
was not. of opinion with the lionoe—aDle Me-m'ber for
Knaresborough (Mr. Ferrancl:inat benevolence should
sound a trumpet bef
:ere it. In the course of
his inquiries -'re
the state of the distress in
B°ltofil tiv:s demand upon his sympathy was so
great demand
Mat he wits had not the privilege of wealth, and
erno would confess without shame that he had known
the vicissitudes of life, and that he had been disciplined
by affliction, which he hoped taught him to sympathise
with others—so great was the demand upon his sympathy,
that he could. not pursue the inquiry to the extent he
desired. He had, however, received further statements
of facts from Mr. Naseby ; and one of those facts had
awakened the compassion and elicited the intervention of
the Right Hon. Baronetat the head of the Government. It
appeared, from tUe reply given to the inquiries of the
Government, that the statement was in some particulars
erroneous. '1 he Jury had been called together,
but they did not record a verdict, because they were of
opinion that no blame could be attached to any one.
But there could be no doubt but a man had died of want
at his loom. The Hon. Gentleman then read a letter,
which he said he received from Mr. W. Cooke, secretary
and visitor to the benevolent society of Asliton, dated .'
September 17, 1841, detailing the case of a person named
Pierce. The
that
stated that Pierce died from want
of food ; and that the Committee of the society to whom
he (Cooke) reported the ease were of the same opinion.
There was no bedding in his cellar, and he and his fa-
mily mere obliged to lie on the bricks and stones. That
was his situation only six months before he died. Mr.
Cooke further stated that he saw the family picking up
rotten potatoes which bed been thrown to the pigs, and
eating them ; nor was that a single instance, for he saw
them taking such food frequently. There was a case of
distress, and he thought the Right Hon. Gentlemen ought
to feel that it became him (Dr. Bowring), from the posi-
tion in which he stood,. to bring forward such an
example, proving that the attention of Parliament
ought to be directed to the condition of the people.
He had stated on that occasion that there were 1,200
houses unoccupied in the borough.—(Hear.) Pro-
bably it was a fact that the rage for building in Bolton,
as elsewhere, had exceeded the demand ; but since he
had made the statement he had been informed
that the present number was 1,400, and he had
no doubt that many of them had connected with
them son.* tale of sorrow and distress. He was
also assured that only two:thirds of the Poor-rates
could be collected; that the workmen connected with
machinery were engaged only half their time ; that
the masons and joiners were only one third employed ;
and that the tailors, shoemakers, and handloom weavers
were in a still worse condition. A meeting was held in
Bolton oat Friday, et which it was unanimously re-
solved to present a memorial to her Majesty's Govern-
ment, entreating her Majesty not to consent to the
rrorogatinn of Parliament until those distresses had
been inquired into. An appeal was made to
that meeting whether lie statements which he
(Dr. Bowring) had made were borne out, and it was
resolved that they were correct. Three reverend gentle-
men with whom he was pereonally acquainted had attended
that meeting, he was sure that not one of them would

deviatA a hair's breadth from veracity. Mr. Baker said
he could appeal to every class for evidence that the dis-
tress was universal ; he woald make no selection; it
per% ade 1 every class, from the capitalist to the
!abcurer. The employers were suffering no less
than the men ; many appeared in the Gazette, and others
wade quiet compositions, in the hope of being able to
keep ou a little longer. Another of these clergymen re-
ported the case of a family which had been without
food for two days. Now, be begged again to repeat
that he felt deeply grateful to the Government for send-
ing a Commission to inquire into this distress. But he
entreated the Government that the inquiry might not be
a partial one. He had understood that. the Commissioner
who went to Bolton had remained there only twenty-four
hours. Probably he was sent to investigate one special
circumstance—to mare one particular inquiry—though
he thought that he had gathered that it was the inten-
tion of the Right Hon. Baronet that the inquiry
should be made much more extensive. He was
fully convinced that the more rigid the in-
quiry was made, the greater would be the
demand for the interference of the Legislature, in
order to rescue the people from the condition into
which ;they had fallen. The Right Hon. Baronet
had made some statements on a previous night ill
confliction with the savings' banks, and drawn from
e hat had occurred tie deduction that already there had
been considerable alleviation of the sufferings of the peoele.
He thought the savings' banks were in some degree a
deceptive test. A great portion of the depositors were
domestic servants, who were nut affected by seasons of
scarcity or general distress. The Right Honourable
Baronet would also recollect that the period to
which 1 is return referred, was during the elections, when
a large amount of money was spent among the people. He
thought the profession of the parties should in all cases
he given in reference to the sums deposited in the savings
banks. in the Exeter savings' bank the profession of parties
depositing was given, and he inquired haw many operatives
and artisans were depositors. Of 29,643 accounts there
were 6,130 in the name of domestic servants ; 11,538
connected with trade, of whom 5,445 Ivere
children ; 9,252 agriculturists ; 1,320 belonging
to the army and navy ; and 1,403 public
servants and others. There were 12,604 children
in all, while the whole number of artizans was 2,220,
making only one-thirteenth of the whole number depo-
sited. The amount, deposited was 886,0321., of which
194,1701. was deposited by domestic servants, and 86,1681.
by artisans, making :One-tenth of the whole. Ile was
aware that individual'eases of distress were not a proof
of its generality.—(Rear, hear.) If Hon. Members
would look at a document lately issued, in the form of a
Report, from the Registrar-General, they would find
that the mortality in the manufacturing districts had of
late decreased very much. In the metropolis in 1837-8
the number of deaths was 53,596—in 1833-9 the
number was ; in 1839-40, it was 45,13* showing
a decrease in 'the mortality of the metropolis since 1837-8
of 16 per cect. Takine the country at large in 1837-3,
the number of deaths was 335,956 ; in 1838-9, it was
331,007 ; and in 1839.40, it was 350,101, making a general
increase throughout the whole of the country of nearly
4 per cent. But what was the return from the manu-
facturing districts of Lancashire ? In 1837-8 the
number of deaths was 22,932 ; in 1838-9 the number
was 26,606 ; in 1839-40 it was 31,918, showing an
increase of forty per cent.—(Hear, hear.) Thus,
whilst in the agricultural counties there was an
increase only of2o per cent, there was in Lancashire, which
was a manufacturing county, the increase had
been 40 per cent. There were certainly pestilential and
mortiferous diseases in those districts, but these were
the consequences and companions of distress.—(Cries of
Hen", hear." In the agricultural districts the
average of distress was 130 in the 1,000 ; in the metro-
polis it was 161 ; in the manufacturing districts of Lan-
cashire it was 190.—(Hear' hear, and cheers.) He stated
those facts not through any desire of fomenting
a bad feeling towards the aristocracy, or of inflaming
the popular pasSions, or fanning the flame of popular
discontent. If he had sought to pander to the mul-
titude, he might have taken a different course upon
'the Poor-law Bill, and done everything in his power to
prevent that which he thought was right—namely, to
leave the measure in the hands of her Majesty's Govern-
ment. But he only stated this, that the Corn-law and
the Poor-law could not be maintained together.
He ' concurred w.th those who thought that the
Poor-law ought not to be interfered with in its
details, in order that her Majesty's Govern-
ment might not turn round on them, and ac-
cuse them of having taken that measure which
had such imperfections out of their hands, and
thrown from their shoulders the responsibility
of that measure. He must again thank the Right Hon.
Baronet for the Home Department, for the personal
kindness he had shown him in this matter. He
(Dr. B.) heard that there was some technical objections
to the production of the papers moved for. • He, how-
ever' felt that it was due to himself to have said all that
had fallen from him on the present occasion. He felt
that no apprehension of his (Dr. Bowring's)
having suffered himself to make unauthorized statements,
would induce the Right Hon. Gentlemen to refuse those
reports, The Hon. Member concluded by reading his
motion.
Mr. BROTHERTON seconded the motion.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that he should gladly have
seconded the motion of the Right Honourable Member,
were it not -liable to a technical objection.
He found it necessary in the course of the communica-
tion which he had instituted into the case of
distress alleged on a former occasion by the Hon.
Member, to embody certain extracts from the speech
of the Hon. Gentleman ; and those extracts could not be
laid before the House. But he would suggest to the
Hon. Gentleman that he might amend his motion by
adding to it the words " or extracts," and he (Sir J.
Graham) would in that case lay before the House all the
papers relating to the subject which could be produced.
He must say_ that he considered it the duty of Hon.
Memberse befOre making statements in the House,
to infoem themselves accurately; on the subject ;
because it was one thing to make statements in
that House harrowing to the feelings, and calculated to
excite the House and the country ; and another, after
an interval of time to investigate those state-
ments, and follow them up step by step ; and
if at the conclusion of such an investigation
they were to attend so strictly to privilege, Hon. Mem-
bers ought to feel the urgent necessity of caution in the
statements which they made. Hg would suggest to
Hon. Members who had to make any'netatements re-
lating to the administration of the Poor-laws-
to have . the kindness to communicate to him in
writing the statements of facts on which they wished to
have an investigation made, and he would cause such in-
vestigstion to take place, and then when the Hon. Mem-
ber made such statements they could at once be met.
In the cases mentioned on a former evening by the
Honourable Member for Knaretborough; relating to
certain cases In a Union in Yorkshire, and in the
eases mentioned by the Hon. Member for Rochdale,
on the same evening, he had adopted that course with
those Hon MininbeN) to Pettish him with their state-
me:lth 111 writing, and had assured them that those cases
should be investigated, and the statements gone into
point by point.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Mem-
ber for Bolton seemed to eouipleid that the Assistant
Peer.ittit Cclifinlissioner had only remained in Bolton 24
hours, and therefore contended that he could not tho-
roughly have investigated those fuets. He was not aware
of the length of tittle which the Oommissioner had
remained at Bolton) but it was certainly re-
quisite that he ihotild Wel tto unnecessary de-
lay. But the Commissioner had sea the lidiatitig
officer of Bolton, and the Board of Guardians of that
place, and he had 'One intA the statements which the
Hon, Mtlithef had made, Point by point; as tild House
would find phen the RePort should tie .141 before &in.
the it n% Atenilk.f had that niot alliitiefl fd Othif€ ifeeh
bit t:e ; but when one statement was under discussion he
Ihardly thought he had a right to go into new matter, and
thus thus to change the issue. Without meaning any
offence to the Hon. Member for Bolton, he must eay that
he hoped) with regard to his new statements; he had eih-
sereed greater eailtion. The Arst easel tti which the
nom Member had alluded was that of a person named
Pearce, who, according to the statements of the Hon
Member, after undergoing the greatest extremity of suf-
fering, had died under eircuttistances the ttioat revolting.
He would pass by the Coroner's Inquest, because the
Hon. Gentleman admitted that he could not rely upon it;
but he must remark that the Coroner of Bolton, having
been applied to, had refused to hold an Inquest on the
ground that there was no necessity for it, so satisfied had
he been that there was not even a prima facie case fur
holding an Inquest. The Coroner tbr the county of Lan-
caster, however, had not been so scrupulous; he had held an
lequest, and held it in the absence of the relieving officer.
Now, with respect to the statement of the wife of Pearce.
He begged the House to listen on the one hand to the
statement of the Hon. Gentleman, and to the report of the
Assistant-Commissioner on the other. The Right Hon.
Gene then referred to the statement of Pearce's case, as
made by Dr. Bearing; but, said the Right Hon. Gentl.-
man,•the Report of the Poor-law Assistant Commission: r
was quite at variance with that statement. The Coin-
missioner said he visited the house and examined the
widow of Pearce. She informed him (the Commissioner)
that her husband died in February, more than half a year
ago, at the age of 65, of a lingering illness ; that she had
employment herself, and her two daughters were fully em-
ployed, earning 9s. 6d. a week during her husband's life,
and that they were in a comfortable way.—(Rear,
hear.) Thu Right Him. Gentleman then referred to the
case of Bristow. It appeared this case had been reported
beenti oo st
.h eaa
vysi ngt,
given
fie
it
o:teorhf ,ai
them
haffenarmocilnLti;.:)Lrt
family—(Hear)—and
relief had
—and they had
-week
hear.)denying t ei r sup pto rs te.
v—eor(feHl
aai
ssr.:
tress existed at Bolton, but whet he complainedtha
that that distress had been exaggerated. An investiga-
tion took place with respect to the education of the poor
about Christmas, 1840, and the House would allow him
to read the Report of the Assistant Poor-law Commis-
sioner in reference to that inquiry. He would read the
words of the relieving-officer, whose evidence was
taken by Mr. Mott, the Poor-law Commissioner in ques-
tion. This person said he recollected that about
Christmas last the rate-payers formed themselves into a
Committee, to inquire into the distress of the people of
Bolton. A statement was made in reference to
the several parishes said to have been visited, and
he thought it his duty to examine the cases.—(Hear,
hear.) The result was, that he found that in every case
representations had been made which were not_ true.
une st
eos
der d. d e
rtrh
hta
to
He charged one
aTehoeloaunrio
huandt obfeeenargniiinegns
to
nad everybe incorrectlyone, implying s t aategdr
e,
aatnedr
degree of want than really existed.
oswtoetmaiiianands withommaed
made
ltellingne rk ee
tassue,nv
athis-itet
bthha untruths, when
Commissioner, Mr. Mott, said that these statements
were got up for an Anti-Corn-law meeting at Bolton ;
ea:sell:5011 she seh de could,isctorinbif'
and now they were- reproduced in Parliament, com-
mented upon, and made subsidiary to the same object.
Then, as to the other point alluded to by the Hon. Mem-
ber.—the number of uninhabited houses. That also hail

THE SUN, LONION, FRIDAY, OCTOBER 1, IrYll.

been investigated by the Assistant-Commissioners. It
was attempted to be shown that the excess of uninha-
bited houses was attributable to the existing distress.
Mr. Mutt's statement was, that the number of houses
necessary empty, according to the population, was
16,836 ; the actual number was 20,292 ; but he attri-
buted the whole excess to over-speculation in building
—in fact, to over-production.—(Hear, hear.) The As-
sistant Commissioner had also entered into the question
mooted by the Hon. Member ; viz., the number of deaths,
as shown by the Register-General's Report, which had
been laid on the table of the House a few days ago.
He would call the attention of the House to the fact,
that, until the Bill, establishing the registry
of births, deaths, and marriages, there was no
return made which could be at all relied on ;
so that, in fact, no comparison could be made
with any approach to accuracy. If the Hon. Member
had any additional facts, and would apprise him of
them, he would promise that immediate investigation
would be instituted.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Ile had
shortly given the facts of the Report, but it
would be laid in extenso on the table of the House.
He trusted it would in future induce Hon: Members to
be more cautious in making statements upon exparte
evidence, and that. in 'future whatever statements they
made should be communicated in writing, in order that
they might be investigated.-(Loud cheers.)
Sir R. PEEL wished to refer to some statements made
upon a former evening, as proof of the distress prevail-
ing in certain districts. He was sure the House would
recollect that no one could admit more fully than Ite did
that there was in the manufacturing districts, and particu-
larly in the cotton manufactures, ccnsiderable dis-
tress, and that the manufacturing- population hed to
submit to severe sufferings and privations. But the
question was not as to the extent of that distress, but
as to the accuracy of certain statements with regard to
that distress. He had said that there was great
exaggeration on the subject of the distress ;
and as to particular facts, and he had cautioned the
House against aggravating the discontent that prevailed
by such statements. Before he proceeded to refer to the
points to which he wished to call attention he was
anxious to notice one rtatement made by the Hon. Gen-
tleman who had just sat down with respect to the state
of mortality in the manufacturing districts, and to eau-
tion the House against drawing an inference even from
the rate of mortality having increased, which he be-
believed to be the fact. In these counties, which were
the chief seat of the manufactures, there had been an
increase of mortality. At the same time it must be
borne in mind that conclusions should not be _come to
hastily. The Commissioners in their Report had given
a caution which the Hon. Gentleman, after careful pe-
rusal, should not have overlooked.—(Cries of " Hear,
Hear.) The Register-General stated that the pre-
valence of increased mortality in those counties which
comprised the largest amount of population, suggested, a
course which might be found, in the circumstance to
which the manufacturing population were exposed. But
a further examination showed that not only did the in-
crease vary, but that there was a decreased mortality in
some districts ; and such was the case particularly in
Manchester, Salford, Bolton, Oldham, Stockport, and
Leeds. Though there had been that increase, yet in the
towns which were particularly the seats of manufacturing
industry—Manchester, Salford, Bolton, Oldham, Stock-
port, and Leeds—the mortality had decreased. On a
former night he (Sir R. Peel) had referred to the returns
from the savings' banks, not as a proof that. there was
no distress, for of that he was well aware ; nay, more,
he expressly said that he did not think the returns from
the savings' banks could be altogether relied on as a
test of the comfort of the working classes ; but at the
same time that no Government, in attempting to collect
information respecting the condition of the labour-
ing poor, would disregard those returns as evi-
dence of that condition ; and he thought that as far
as those returns could be relied on, they rather
tended to induce those who felt a deep interest in that
subject to take a less discouraging view of the condition
of the poor than some Hon. Gentlemen were inclined to
do ; and he (Sir R. Peel) gave an account of the state of
the deposits of the present year for the last three months.
The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Stockport (Mr.
Cobden) in following him (Sir R. Peel) said that the re-
turns from some of those banks were entirely delusive.

Mr. COBDEN—Not delusive but fallacious.

Sir It. PEEL—WeII, then, the Hon.. Member said
fallacious, and that it was not his (Sir R. Peel's) duty to
have brought forward returns only for a few months of
the present year; but why, said the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Cobden), did not the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel)
bring forward returns from the same banks for the years
1837, 38, 39, and 40 ?
Mr. COBDEN-1835, 36, and up to 1841.
Sir R. PEEL really did not know that the Hon.
Gentleman mentioned the years 1835 and 1836 ; he had
not been present at the time the Hon. Gentleman spoke.
He admitted that he had not the returns for those years,
but the Hon. Member should have the returns from the
year 1837 upwards. The Honourable Gentleman called
for returns for those years, and now he said he went
further back, to 35 and 36, but he certainly alluded to
the years to which he (Sr It. Peel) referred. It was
said also, that he (Sir It. Peel) had made particular re-
ference to the agricultural classes. Now, he made in-
quiry with respect to the manufacturing districts, and
he had selected a particular district which was of the
most importance—the district of Manchester and Sal-
ford—and the following was the result of the informa
Lion sent to him respecting the savings' banks in those
places. The returns, he admitted, began with the year
1837, and the omission of 1835 and 1836 .was not inten-
tional The months included in the return were July,
August, and September. of the years 1837, 1838, 1839.
1840, and 1841. In 1837, 1833, and 1839, taking the
number of deposits and the number of withdrawals
for the three above mentioned months, the average
was—Deposits, 22,600/, withdrawals 21,030/, show-
ing a balance of 1,5701. in favour of the deposits.
In 1839 and 1840, taking the average of these two years,
the amount of deposits was 24,3001, and the withdrawals
23;800/, leaving a balance in favour of deposits of only
5001. In the year 1841, the deposits for the three months
Jul,, August, and September, amounted to 28,1031,
having increased, as compared with the average of the
first period, from 22,6001. to 28,1031. ; and the average
increase, in 1840, was from 24,300/. to 28,1031. The
amount of withdrawals in that quarter of 1841 was
25,3561., leaving a balance in favour of deposits, as com-
pired with the withdrawals, of 2,8471. The balance of
the first period was 1,5071., and in the second period
500/, and in the last period 2,846/. But it might be
said, give us the number of depositors, because the
number of depositors is of great importance ; because it
might- happen in the latter period, that although the
amount of deposits might be greater, yet that the
number of depositors had diminished, and an argument
might be founded upon that, that the depositors were of
the more wealthy class. In the first period, the average
of 1837 and 1838, the number of contributors was 4,300,
while in the average of 1839 and 1840 the number of
contributors was 5,103, while the average number of con-
tributors in the last year was 6,335.—(Hear, hear.) He
did not wish to push the argument to an extent to which
it was not entitled. He said again, what he had stated
before, that the criterion of the savings' banks was not
one on which ho relied ; but still the comparison was
favourable. In the course of the same debate the Hon.
Member for Manchester— _ _

Mr. GIBSON here rose amidst loud cries of " Order."
He believed it had been laid down by the Chair that it
was contrary to the custom of the House for Hon. Mem-
bers to allude to what had taken place in a former debate.
He felt this was precisely an occasion on which the in-
convenience of the practice was manifested.—(Laughter
from the Ministerial benches.) That was his case. Let
them observe what was going to take place. The Right
Hon. Baronet, having had a week's time for prepara-
tion—having all the means a Prime Minister had at his
disposal to make inquiry—came down to the House to
tritik.e attacks on the statements of Hon. Members.
goiV, lid (Mr, Gibson) well remembered what had been
-dated by the Noble Lord the Member for North Lanca-
shire, that no Hon. Member could so well dress up a
case for present and temporary effect as the Right Hon.
Baronet the Member for 'ramworth.—(Cries of " Order,
order.") But what he (Mr. Gibson) was going to oh-
sefra was this, that it was not his wish to shrink from
the fullest L'vestigation of anything he had said on the
subject of the 0,-
-qtresss of the country ; but he did
of arriving at the truth, that it
think, for the purpos:: iron. Member, whose state-
was very desirable that an A. ',mild have time given
ment was about to be attacked, b—. House prepared
in order that he might come into tn... 4o make his
with the necessary testimony to enable him ~ira._
defence to the charges so to be bronglit Mutt
(Hear, hear, and "Order.")
Sir R. PEEL resumed—He confessed that when a
statement of very great importance was made in that.
House, he did not think, when his sole object was to as-
certain the facts, he should be called to orcler.—(Hear,
hear.) Ile would leave it to the House to judge whe-
ther he was about to be guilty of any infraction of the
rules of Parliament, which justified any Member in pro-
testing against the course that he pursued. He con-
sidered that it 'Avas absolunily necessary that he should
make the statement he was about to have made. When
it was asserted in that Louse that with respect to Man-
chester, thousands were deprived of employment, ant
thousands suffering under typhus fever, from want of
sufficient food—he would appeal to the House whether it
was right that a Minister of the Crown, hearing a state-
ment so appalling as that., could refrain from making
inquiry—(Cheers)—and from communicating. in some
way or other, the result of that inquiry to the House?—
(Cneers.) He left it to the House to judge whether it
was wise that the enforcement; of technical rules should
permit this country, and • the other coun:ries of
Europe, to labour under the impression that
thousands were actually suffering in this country
under typhus fever, produced by want of food, and that
when a 'Minister of the Crown merely attempted to ad-
minister consolation and satisfaction to minds grieved by
such statements, an Hon. Member should get up and
appeal to a rule of the House which prevented reference
to the debate in which the assertions were made.—
(Cheers.) He had thought that the Hon. Gentleman
himself, from bis connexion with Manchester, would hear
with satisfaction the statement which he was about to
make.—(Much cheering from the Tories.) He (Sir R.
Peel) was merely going to state that he had received
from a person of the highest respectability in Manchester
a communication to the effect that great alarm prevailed
in consequence of the statement made in the House that
thousands were dying in that town of typhus fever ; and
the communication was accompanied with returns from
the Fever Hospital, commencing with June in the year
1837, and carried down to May of the present year. In
the year 1837 the number of patients admitted iuto
the Fever Hospital was 1,797 ; in 1838 it was 1,372 ; in
1839 it was 1,042 ; in 1840 it was 848 ; and in 1841
up to the beginning of May it was only 690.—(Tory
cheers.) In order to make the comparison perfectly
fair the average of the months of June, July,.August,
and September, in those years was calculated, and it
appeared that in these four mouths of 1837, the number
of patients received into this hospital was 340—in 1838,
432 ; in 1839, 203 ; in 1840, 268.; and in 1841, 1971--: