The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-13 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY MORYING, FEBRUARY l3, 1847.

~~~

character s)f these reverend gentlemen. The Noble Lord
read a letter from Dr. Herbert, denying the truth of the
statement in the petition.
i Lora STANLEY did not quarrel with the latitude
takers by the Noble Marquis in reading the lett( r from
the Dean of Manchester. lie was sorry that t.in obser-
i vation he made a few evenings ago, should have given
harm to that gentleman, but he must s:iy, after what he
now heard, that the case was merely in the same posi-
tion as he had left it. lle eid not re-fer to the points to
which that letter alluded, but what he did say, that the
charges complained of where non-residence ; that by the
terms of the charter, thie*as enforced, and that the obli-
gations imposed had not been observed. What was now
stated by the Noble Marquis made his case stronger, for if
the fines for non-residence were enforced when the salaries
of the warden, canons, and chapters were 701., 35/.,
and 17/. 10s. respectively, how much more should they
be when the salaries ware raised to 1,500/., 1,000/, and
800/. ? He still was of opinion, that however freed
from legal responsibility, the Dean and Wardens were
morally bound to fulfil obligations imposed by the
charter and the original founders. All he would say
was this, that they would be perfectly warranted in
sending two of the careens to watch the procee dings iu
Parliament, end that if a Committee were to be ap-
pointed to ascertain what were the obligations anti re-
strictions of the eharter, he, for one, should be ready to
accede to such a Committee.
Lord BROUGHAM thought that the Dean and Chap-
ter were perfectly competent to look after their own
interests, and ho should recommend the Dean and
Chapter to resign. (Laughter.) Why, they had
sworn to resign. They had sworn that, in the event of
the obligations not bring complied with, that they :
would resign. It was no reply to say, that they swore
that they could either resign or pay the fine. The fine
was imposed to enforce the duty, and the payment of ,
the fine no more exonerated them from the obligation to
resign than a person would be who had used a profane
oath, and had then gone before the magistrate, and had
thrown two shillings instead of one, would be exonere
ated from the fault, than if he had not paid the fine at all.
As a lawyer, he should say, that they could not be ex-
onerated from the effence by the payment of the find,
and he knew what view the Court of Queen's Bench
would tyke of it. He, therefore, conceived dist the De-an
and Chapter had no other course than to resign. He
did not say that this was an immoral thing, but it was
a wrong thing and ought to be remedied.
Lord CAMPBELL said that this was no party ques-
tion—(Hear, hear)—but simply a question of law, and
whether the terms of the donor's will had Leen carried
out or not. The court of equity bad decide d that it a
man entered into a contract and failed to perform any
portion of his contract, the payment of the penalty
would in no way exonerate him from the specific per-
formance of the contract, and the Lord Chancellor
would direct the specific performance of that contract.
SUGAR DU-TIES DISTILLERY BILL_

Theiirl of CLARENDON moved the second read-
ing of this Bill, and that it be referred to a Select
Committee.
Lord STANLEY did not apprehend that there would
be any opposition to the Bill, but he believed, from the
calculation that had been made, that it would prove use-
less. He would not then enter upon a discussion of the
subject, but was in favour of its being referred to a
Committee.
The 13111 wni then read a second time.
The House then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 12.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
SECOND READINGS.
The following Bills were read a scond time:—Ashton.
Gas; Birkenhead Improvement (Gas Works) and pur-
chase of Birkenhead and Claugbton Gas Works; Ips-
wich Dock; Ipswich Gas; London end South. Western
Rai (Widening, &e.); Manchester and Southport
Railway and Branches; Midland Railway (Masbrough
and Normanton Stations Enlargement); Protestant Dis-
senters and General Life and Fire Insurance Company;
and Southampton and Dorchester Railway (Blandford
Branch) Bills.
The Marquis of CHANDOS presented petitions
against the Bristol and Exeter and other railways.
Mr. 'WILLIAMS presented a petition against the
Newport and Hereford Railway.
POOR REMOVAL BILL.
Capt. GLADSTONE presented a petition from St.
Clement's, Ipswich, against the Poor Removal Bill.
UNIVERSAL PEACE.
Mr. B. B. CABBELL presented petitions in favour
of universal peace.
RAILWAYS IN IRELAND.
Colonel CONNOLLY presented petitions from Man-
chester and other places, in favour of the Railway Bill
for Ireland.
REPRESENTATIVE GOVERNMENT.
Dr. BOW RING presented a petition, respectably
signed, from the ton n of Malton, praying for an ex-
tended system of representation.
SMALL DEBTS IN WALES.
Mr. WILLIAMS presented a petition from the town
of Abingdon, and places in South Wales, praying that
the persons, appointed to administer the provisions of the
Debts Act, might be persons conversant with the
Welsh lai.guage.

POOR-LAW.
Mr. AL PHILLIPS presented a petition from Man-
chester, praying for n alteration in the rate-paying
clauses of the Poor-law.
COPPER ORE.

Mr. PARKER I resented a petition praying foi• tlye
remission of all duty on f 'reign copper ore.
POOR REMOVAL BILL.

Mr. BENNETTpresented a ptetition from Sudbury,
praying for an alters ion in the Poor Removal Aci, of
last session.

LiW OF SETTLEMENT.
Mr. CHUTE presented petitions, praying for an
alteration in the law of settlement.
POOR-LA W AND HEALTH OF TOWNS.
Sir WALTER JAMES presented a petition from
the guardians of the Hull Union praying for au altera-
tion in the present purer-law as regarded the Board of
Commissioners, which they alleged was unsuited to the
wants ot the country; also a petition from:a society of
architectural gentlemen praying the House to take mea-
sures to improve the sanatory condition of towns and
cities by drainage, Sze.
COPPER ORE, &c.
Mr. MILNER GIBSON presented a petition from
Manchester, praying that the duty should be abolishes'
on the indenture of apprentices; also a petition from the
Chamber of Commerce in that city, praying fur the
abolition of all duty on copper ore.

they were entitled to the franchise, and had taken the
neceesery steps to obtain it.
DESTITUTE PERSONS (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion of Mr. LABOUCHERE, that the
order of the day for the third reading of this Bill be
read.
NEWSPAPER 3 PUBLICATION OF DIS
PA i CHES.
Mr. ROEBUCK, seeing the Noble Secretary for
Foreign Affairs in his place, wished to put a ques-
tion. In the Morning Chronicle of that morning,
a dispatch, dated the 11th instant, signed Palmer-
sten, and directed to the Marquis of Normanby,
was published. It was not the matter of the dispatch
with which he wished to find fault, but to the circum-
stance appearing in a newspaper before it could have
reached Lord Normanby, to whom it was addressed, or
the Court to whom the communication was to be made.
Now he wished to know whether the appear-
ance of such a document in a public journal
was not in contravention of the rules which regulated
diplomatic correspondence, and contrary to the courtesy
which should be otszerved with regard to such comtnu-
ideation. Ho was exceedingly grieved to make
this statement. as he believed that the conduct and
the good faith of the political agents of the
Noble Lord nod of the Noble Loi d himself with
respect to the recent relations with France,
had been completely vindicated. Still it was abso-
lutely necessary that the good faith, candour, and
straightforward conduct of the Government should
be maintained beyond all suspicion.— (Hear, hear.)
The question he wished to put to the Noble Lord was
this, and he was sure he would pardon him for doing so
—had he any cognisance of any document of the kind?
Lord PALMERSTON said the fact was, that yester-
day evening he laid on the table the coctinuation of the
correspondence which he had previously laid before the
House. That continuation contained the last dispatch
of M. Guizot to Count Oliviers, which had been officially
communicated to her Majesty's Government. It also cen-
lt
Mite: d a dispatch from him (Lot d Palmerston) to Lord
antmibeyi,thatthrTpy, v''as
to no
intentionbat
last
tin thedispatch.part ;e
of thei
tiltUrmver a to
certainly must return . his thanks to the Hon.
Member for the handsome manner in which
he mid spoken or the conduct of her Majesty's Govern-
ment, to connexion with these dispatches. These
papers also contained a dispatch from Lord Nor-
mashy, complaining of the iuterences that mght
be drawn from certain statements which had
been made in the Fi • ich Chambers ; also his
(Lord Palmerston's) answer to Lord Normanby, stating
that the confidence of the Government in him had not
been shaken by anything that had passed.—(Hear,
hear.) These papers, as he had said, were presented
yesterday, and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman must
be aware that a short time must elapse before they
could be circulated to all the Members of the House.—
(Hear, hoar.) He was sorry, that by some accident,
the papers had not been generally delivered, but he
begged to tender the Hon. and Learned Gentleman his
(Lord Palmerston's) copy. (The paper was handed
byihim to the Hon. and Learned Member fur Bath,
amidst considerable laughter.) It might, he thought,
be instructive to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman.
The Bill was then read a third time and passed.
FEVER IN IRELAND.
Mr. F. FRENCH wished to call the attention of the
lion. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland (Mr. La-
bouchere) to the recent extraordinary increase of fever
in Ireland. He had received several letters this day
stating that fever was greatly on the increase. He
wished to suggest that the valuable medical institutions
of Ireland should be made available for the purposes
of the ailing during the prevalence of the present
calamity. He also wished to know what steps the Go-
vernment proposed to take in order to alleviate the suf-
ferings of those persons?
Mr. LABOUCHERE believed that the statement of
the Honourable Gentleman was correct. He stated
last session that, if the Government found it
necessary, the Board of Health in Dublin
would be renewed. The Lord-Lieutenant, owing to
communications which had been made to him, had made
that renewal, and the board had been in operation during
the last three weeks. The attention of the Government
was fully directed to the question.
RAILWAYS (IRELAND) BILL.
Lord G. BENTINCK moved the second reading of
this Bill.
Lord NEWRY presented a petition from Newry in
favour of it.
The CHANCE,LLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
before he directed his attention to the important mea-
sure before the House, he wished to offer a few
observations on what had already taken place.
There were one or two symptons of party feeling in the obser-
vations which fell from one or two gentlemen on the other side
of the House. He was perfectly ready to believe that his
Noble Friend was willing to abstain from all partp expressions,
and he could assure the Noble Lord that such was the feeling
of her Majesty's Government. if the measure were carried,
they were not prepared to undertake the responsibility
of carrying it out. But it was of such importance
and magnitude, that they were not prepared to adopt it. A
plan which was to give no less a sum than sixteen millions—
Lord G. BENTINCK—Not more?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Not more.
Those sixteen millions of money were notlof such a light de-
scription, as would warrant the adoption, whatever the Govern-
ment might be inclined to do in minor matters, and accord-
inely his Noble Friend at once frankly stated that he could not
undertake it, and that it should meet with his opposition.
He confessed that he bad great satisfac ion in seeing the
measure in the shape of a Bill, becau-e, however lucid anti
clear the statement of the Notate Lord opposite might be,
nevertheless it was surer, and more satisfactory to judge of a
measure reduced into a shape, than merely a statement in that
House ; and though, he confessed, that standing in the situ-
ation which he did, he was a little appalled at the
test prospect of a loan of 16 millions, that feeling
was in no degree removed, but to a considerable
degree increased, when he saw the provisions of the Bill,
provisions calculated to favour in many respects railways rather
than distressed persons in Ireland, He had no doubt that the
Noble Lord had introduced the measure to relieve distress in
Ireland, but he confessed that when he saw on the back of the
Bill the name of a gentleman, the Lord Mayor of York, who
was so deeply interested its railways, and the name of another
gentleman, the Hon. Member for Westmoreland, who was so
largely concerned in furnishing the materials of which these
railways were constructed (Cheers) be should have
been surprised it the interest of the railway proprietors
and shareholders had not been adequately considered. He did
not mean to say that these were reasons why the measure
should not be fairly considered and discussed, but he did think
that it justified him in looking with a more critical eye at the
provisions of the Bill than he should be disposed to de with a
measure introduced simply for the relief of the people of Ire-
land. He would concede to the Noble Lord that an
extension of railways in Ireland would be beneficial to
that country. He would concede, moreover, that
to a certain degree, but by no means to the extent
supposed by the Noble Lord, labour in Ireland would be
improved under the provisions of the Bill, and that a certain
number of destitute labourers would be provided for. He
conceded all these points to the Noble Lord, and having con-
ceded them, he thought that the Bill had also a tendency to
establish certain other points which. ought to be
instantly explained to the satisfaction of the House.
He had heard nothing advanced to cause him to admit the
statement that the State should become a great money-lender,
or to convince him that the security of railways in Ireland
would be an advantageous security. Ile had heard nothing to
convince him of the benefits that the distressed persons
of Ireland would receive from the present Bill, that
he should consent to the advance of such a large stun of money,
proposed to be advanced as a loan. In the present state of
the finances of the country, and the distress which so gene-
rally prevailed, he had heard nothing to justify him in adding
so largely to the burdens of the people of this coun-
try. (Cries of " Hear, hear.") For the sake of
securing efficient relief for the distress of Ireland, he could
not ask the people of this country—themselves;uffering under
considerable difficulties and:privations—to consent to advance tnis
large sum of money. Of this he was assured also, that the
money would not be effective for the purpose. With regard
to the first point to which he had referred, he was not of opi-
nion that the State should become a joint moneys'ender, ex-
cept it was under most extraordinary circumstances, and with
the assurance that the benefits would be commensurate to the
advance. Now, with regard to measures of improvement, though
souse Gentlemen in that House had talked about the " new
and fantastical" doctrine of political economy, he was quite
persuaded that if the security was good, there would be no
difficulty in getting advances from private individuals for the
construction of these works. He doubted if, in the
happy times which certain Hon. Members had referred
to the times of feudality, there was any great disposition to
advance sums of money for the public good, in order to serve
the interests of the yeomen and the tenants on the landowners
estates. It had also been complained that the rate of interest
was too high. but this he submitted was the only check which
the Government had that the money would not be recklessly
required. It was only because the security was not equal to
that
.required by private capitalists, that it was necessary to fix
the rate of interest at higher than ordinary rates.—(Hear.)
He believed that the greatest departure made from that prin-
ciple was made last year in the case of the Drainage Act,
and as far as Scotland was concerned it was fortunate that
that measure was in existence, because the proprietors
in that country had availed themselves of it, to ex-
tend employment to the labouring classes around them.
But the measure itself was a measure of exception, and he
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not know tat it could
be defended. The Noble Lord had stated that these railways
afford the most unexceptionable security. He was exceedingly
sorry to say anything which might depreciate the value of these
undertakings in the market, or to express any decided opinion as
to the value of the securities which they might offer. But
when lie in referred to the past transactions lreland,when he
referred to die advances made to public works in Ireland, he
was nut singular in his doubts of the securities they had to offer.
He remembered that canals were at one time in much the same
situation that railways were now, yet be found, on referring to
the Acts, that not one of these had paid the advances made
fr.= the public treasury. Now he scarcely need to refer
to any of these old canals, but he might instance the Loggan
Navigation, the money advanced by Government in the case
of this canal had not yet been paid. Soon after he had
been honoured with the seals of office, which he now
held, a eeputation frem the Ulster Canal had waited
him, they represented that unless the whole of the
upon emitted, would be
debt, due to Government, wer!_. r
impossible for them to go OIL Id
( earl, hear.) The whole
30,0001. of hitch
estimate for that canal was 160,900 et
Y (c7ut of that 130,w050/ had
been advanced by the public.
interest had been Made°.
one payment of either principal or
tin beundo r the most
There was the Grand Canal, which was get .
favourable circumstances; it was not three
several rs y since the
d an amount, in sums of
Act was passed. an mem, amounting in all
40,0001., 38,000 L , and another
bl'cyet this under-
to 98,000/., was advanced by the psi !
al or interest,
taking was so unable to pay either pri p
of 10,00 a,
that it was agreed that on the receipt
b the public.
the amount of 98,0001. should be forgiven y _
these
Before the promoters of
Before the existence of railways, w
schemes were utiable to obtain money from individuals, they
applied to Government, and the result was that both
sacrificed. Other
principal and interest were altogether son
and
advances had been made, not to the poor
lar et
impover-
ished districts and parts of Ireland, but to some of the g
towns and richest cities in that country. Wid they been
paid? No such thing. There was now due from the city of
Dublin the sum of .245 000/.. advanced to them and interest upon
it, that was now considered quite irrecoverable. Advances had
been made for the wide streets of Cork, 13.000/. principal,
with 10,000 interest, but no repayments had belau made. The
sum of 55,000/. had been advanced W the city of Limerick,

no payments of any kind had been made on account
of interest, but
of
if
y
am:si
edsl
either
otnei
and
tnertoehoei
iro,uttsrepkhnti
repaid,
undertakings
principal
teareipdri
art:eneavaeeasl
kadpbpnri
:or
advances
interest.m nowa d
e due
either 34T,
oelr.
made, not to poor and impoverisbed districts. Thus,
ex
m
e
c.
s
were advances
internal com-
munications, or to the three richest towns and cities in
Ir
th
respect
gts
dtus
b.
individuals,l
the
boetwfo
Tnoo
tau
hedl di
the
advances
ebnvdecae found—noelnslecahr:
sacrificed.cyh atamni
do
made
description
tdapodri repayment of
either principal or interest, and all the advancesi:tvdhaiginetseetlDni
rneeuermlbtaaaiolinonilsnyidd
com-
panies to
speaking,
and Kingstown Railway had, however, been all repaid.—
(Loud cheers from Lord George Bentinck and his
supporters.) lie thought the Noble Lord would
not, however, be able to discover any parallel
between that railway and these country railways
which he proposed to construct all over the country. If this,
then, be so, and the fact was indisputable, he did not think that
he was other than justified in saying that it was by no means so
clear as the Noble Lord had supposed that the security to be
afforded by these railways was of AO unexceptional a cha-
ratter.—( Hear, hear.) There was also another objection to
the measure of the Noble Lord, especially if the measure was
to be consideredas a comprehensive scheme, because it would
put both the good and bad schemes upon toe same footing of
equality. If the proposed examination of the Board of Works
were to be of any avail, then if they were to reject all those
rnertures which they considered as inadequate security, the
mea titre of the Noble Lord ',solid not amount to the bene-
fit he seemed to attach to his measure; but if the Board sbonld
think fit to recommend all the schemes, then it would be a
grievous injustice to those schemes among them which
were considered as really solid or good ones. He had been in-
formed that the best of the lines now in the course of construction
in which the companies had advanced sums sufficient to enable
them to borrow under the terms of their Act, had been far
some time borrowing money at 4% or A per cent. Upon the
announcement of the plan of the Noble Lord, that the other
railways vr euld be able to obtain advances at 314 per cent.,t_the
value of the shares immediately fell I pe: sent.
Lord G. BENTINCK—What line was that?
CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The Great
Southern and Western he believed. He would ma call the
attention of the House to the opinions of other persons beside
himself as to the injurious effect of this measure. He
would trouble the House by reading a letter be bad re-
ceived from a very wealthy gentleman, residing in Dublin—
& gentleman whom he would not then name, but whose
opinions were entitled to the greatest respect. He said in
his letter, " If the Government were to give the means of
obtaining advances of money at 34 per cent., the project
would have the effect of rendering the most bankrupt con-
cern rich, and putting them upon a level with the best lines
of the country. If the Government should be insane enough
to yield to the cry persisted in for railway's in Ireland
without the most stringent conditions, and the most satisfactory
explanations as to the proprietary and the paid up capital (if
those schemes, the railways in Ireland will become no more
than mere sinks of speculation in that country. And if the
provision requiring a certain amount of paid up capital in
each company before they had the power to borrow were to be
,et aside, the effect would be to place all the worst lines in
the country on a level with the best of them.
He confessed when he looked at this Bill ka thought there
were some provisions which looked very much as if they
were intended to relieve gentlemen from speculations
which had not met their original expectations. For
instance, the 29th clause provided that where any share-
holder could not pay up his calls the money advanced
by the Government should be applied to the purpose. This
looked very like helping the speculator rather than the public.
That did not seem to be a provision to insure employment
to the destitute poor. Then, again, there was the 31st clause,
provideTww ohhreicity hs
wtpehrfreooeyvr. i ded t
the
e shoulde
however,ht in
ma
phl
et
atkke en event
n p h
by
f a company
the
state
e h
oabandoningshould
he
Nliaobwle
hf se r
di
Idl tnhoet debts andthese uwneidtreteer tdpa:kroi
destitutenrpego:sp
taiorroksfnoaenbt
slehyneil
ne cbuoellamipifiadacnni
dytao..l
ymheentadomf
to shareholders.—( Hear.) He confessed a great many of the
provisions of the Bill were better calculated for the relief of
destitute shareholders than destitute persons.—(Loud cheers.)
There had been, however, a much more tempting project be-
fore the House than that of the Noble Lord. Some time
before the introduction of the measure of the Noble
Lord a meeting was held in Dublin of shareholders
in different Irish railways, who agreed to a petition, which was
subsequently presented to the House, asking—not for so large
an amount of money as the Noble Lord sought—but for a much
less sum, as they proposed that no advances should be
made to the companies, except they had expended
20 per cent. of their capital, and that the Government should
advance 30 per cent. when they had expended AO/. per cent. of
their capital. —(Hear, hear.) Thus they proposed that for
every 501. p •r cent. of their capital expended on the
This he that
tsidthee Governmentred
they only sought the Government to advance about'
por
0/ p
p.
os
tri 0 cne, n
at .3
advanceon a b l e 3
$,(X)0,0001., whereas the Noble Lord sought an advance
a m ueh t n shoulder
more
re
of 16,000,0001., or two-thirds of their whole expen-
diture. It came from the parties themselves, and
was a much fairer proposition than the one proposed by the
Noble Lord's Bill. The Government did not entertain that
proposition, because they were about to propose large
grants for the purpose of preventing actual starva-
tion ; and, whatever was then necessary for that
purpose he should not hesitate to ask the House, but he dis-
tinctly refused to put a burden, or to risk the putting of a bur-
den of any kind, on the people of this country for the mere
benefit of railway speculation in Ireland.—(Loud cheers.) By
the calculation made on this subject by those parties, the ag-
gregate expediture was under 5,000,000?., bat the Noble Lord
proposed the expenditure of 16,000,000?., upwards of two-thirds,
and both proposed advantages nearly similar—they both
proposed to employ a similar number of men, but which of the
two was correct was not for him to say. It certainly was must
extraordinary that the petitioners calculated to employ so many
with one-third of the sum proposed by the Noble Lord, He
believed that the Noble Lord when be stated that the
capital of railway companies in Ireland was sixteen
millions, had included the capital of those corn-
paLies whose lines had been already executed—if
such was the case a reduction should be made in the employ.
went it would give.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord pro-
posed that railways to the extent of fifteen hundred miles
should be executed, which would give employment to one
isundred and ten thousand persons. Now if he calculated the
amount of capital of railways already constructed, it was
likely he had fallen into the same erg or respecting
the number of miles of railway to be laid down,
and if such were the fact there should also be
some reduction made. But without presuming to‘eme
enter into
any discussion on the subject with the Right Hon. l
Sunderland, whose experience was probably far greater titanr
that of any gentleman's in
that House upon matters of the
sta-
e discussing, he had made some inquiry as to
the number of persons engaged upon the construction of a line,bfor
ture they were
and he had obtained his information from a p five-and-
twenty erson of very great
experience, who stated, that to the best of his belief,
per cent. was the outside of the capital spent upon
labour, five-and-twenty per cent. on four millions would leave
about one million to be expended in labour. Taking the
wages at ten shillings a week, and the number of men on;
played at twenty to thirty per mile, which was the average, t
would leave the number of men employed forty-five thousand
instead of one hundred and ten thousand, as stated by the
Noble Lord. The Noble Lord went on to say, that calcu-
lating that one hundred and ten thousand persons were !01-
ployed by the measure, and multiplying that number by five,
it would give support to five hundred and fifty thousand per:
sous. He had shown the number likely to be employed, and
they did not come up to the calculation of the Noble Lord.
He would make every allowance. lie might be underrating
the number, or his information might have underrated them,
but between one hundred and ten thousand and forty-five
thousand there was a very large difference; and be v; s
fully borne out, that nothing like the number names' by
the Noble Lord would be employed by the measure.
He thought that the Hon. Gentleman opposite was a very erro-
neous calculator as to the average number of labourers likely
to be employed on railways, and from whose labour four per-
sons were to derive their substance. He thought that those
able-bodied labourers who were employed on railways were
not likely to have a family of four persons connected with
them, and supported by their labour. He did not believe that.
any one would get up in that House and say that he believed
that amongst the railway labourers distress was most prevha
t.
in this country, and anybody who was at all conversant wit
subject, and who had been in the neighbourhood of a railwayeur.
the course of construction, must know that those persons
yed
any number of persons connected with them. They emPL
em-
ployed on railways were never family men, and seldoi
considerable portjoe, of their wages in good living,
and
trtbuted, as the Noble Lord said, considerably to the asustoreason
Excise. He did not, therefore, think that there
was
aount of
to suppose that there would be anything like the am
had stated.
550,000 persons benefited, as the Noble Lord .
respect
Mere was another consideration in ties
which
which he thought of still more importance,)
The
must be recollected also. (Hear, h
IselL• the class
labourers employed upon railways were very se. . in
fdestitution
of persons who were in the worst state o
; Dublin had
Ire-
land. The Hon. Member for the University os
bring cer-
told them that he had been exceedingly anxiousant
his
°bin.
tain presentments under the Treasury minute, u
he unskilled
tins was, that he found railways did not cm
Piqoftthe country.
and con-
labourer ; that was also the case in other parts
• iding in the s Ln u
passing near the residence of a gentleman, residing It was distinctly proven the other day, in the ease
s own workmen
Ireland, that the contractor brought all
hbourkood was
with him, and not one single person in the neg
minute was
employed. Early in October last, a Treasuryentm
eats for the
issued, empowering baronies to make
Pre of that minute
earth work of railways. In the carrying
outthe baronies as to
considerable difficulties had arisen with
on the spot.
the employment of the labourers
the
minute, he
Subsequently to the issuing
what course they
terested in Irish railways, who
a that in a great number of the
ought to take. They complained
obtained, because the
had received a deputation from a numatbe. r of genotfl-eamreoanuil'wLian-yfs
be
the labourers of
oo.m—p(l
aHi
neianr
railway companies would net
the lines passed, in prefe-
baromti, presentments could ant
each barony through which
The railway companies said
rence to skilled labourers.
to repay the baronies in full
it would not be fair for them
id make, and at the same time
for he presentments they
tweeir
h unskilled labourers, but they
compel them to employ
ling
to employ them in pre-
expressed themselves 'Nu
rowing the baronies would be at
ference to skilled labourers, P.
_en
employing
thewe r ten:
the loss of the difference bet_ e
litnot do so—they refused to submit
hear.) The baronies w° old
to up this small I
difference, yet
to make good this
in
ade for unproductive works. Thigs
these were the very parties I eland,'ekliedPlllh o
had attended the operation of the
was the difficulty
But there had been one railway for which
Treasury minute.
of presentments butch
had been made to a considerable extent ; the
presentments
k Railway. In four baronies through
d presentments had been made
which the line passed, for
was done,
78,0001., but the moment this. a letter from the
received, stating that the company did not
secretary had been he destitute labourers
of the Board
find it suit them to employ t
of Works in preference to independent labourers. In fact,
did
such labourers as the baronies supplied not suit.—( Hear,
hear.) What he said was this, that the measure for promot-
ing the construction of railroads might be a good one for the
proprietors, but as regarded the relief of the destitute poor in
Ireland, it was utterly and altogether useless. The result of
experience was that railway companies employed skilful
labourers from all parts of
the country, where-
ever they could get them,
while it should be the
object of that House, and the country and the Government, to
afford relief to the unskilful labourer, who was starving.—
(Hear, hear.) He believed that it was impossible to unite the
employment of one class with the relief of the other. There
was another circumstance which. was worthy the consideration
of the Houle, and it was this—if any person took the trouble of
looking at the map of Ireland, he would find that the mass of
Irish railways were to be constructed on the east side of that
country, namely, from Dublin to Cork, and from Cork to
Limerick. Now, the destitution and distress which
prevailed in
Ireland, existed not so much on the east as on the western side
of the island. These were the persons who lived upon seaweed in
consequence of the failure of the potatoes; these were the persons
who really suffered the greatest amount of hardship ; these were
the persons among whom disease and destitution
were making
fearful ravages Were these persons to be relieved by the con-
struetion of railways on the opposite side of the country 7 He
believed that he had shown that even fur the destitute • persons
in even the counties and baronies through which the railways
eased, the railways would afford but very little relief; but for

the relief of persons living on the other side of the island, •
sixty or seventy miles from the part of the country where the
railways was being constructed, the measure would be a total
failure.—( hear.) Why, if it were possible that rail-
way directors would sympathise in a great degree with the
miseries of the labourer, that sympathy would be bounded by
the necessity that existed for not sacrificing the interests of
the shareholders.—(Hear, hear.) But if they brought up
labourers from other parts of the country, and neglected the
resident poor, what would be the result ? What but an imme-
diate riot. Why they found that even in England they had
faction fights between the Irish and English labourers. The
result would be that the persons brought there as labourers
would inevitably ',e ill-used and probably driven off. This
being so, and believing as he did, and as he had shown to the
House his reasons for believing, that the measure would not
prove adapted for the relief of the really destitute, even in
those parts of the country through which the
proposed
railways would pass, because those parts of the country were
not the parts which were the most distressed, and that those
parts of the country where relief was most needed no available
assistance would be rendered by the measure. He had also
shown that the present pressure upon the Government, the
state of the finances, and the dipressed state of the country
rendered the measure of the Noble Lord totally unfi•ted to
receive the support of the Government. The Government
' were prepared to abandon the mode of giving assistance by
means of public er other works, because they found that the
sums so expended did not go so far in the relief as they should
do, and that a considerable waste had taken pl.tce in the expen-
diture of the pubic money, and that a considerable por-
tion cf the sums paid by this country d d nut effec:ualiy
afford relief to the distressed people of Ireland.
then, that be a goad and valid season fir aban-
doning and discontinuing, that system of affording relief,
and he thought it was, and the other system which the Go-
veernment were prepared to adopt, would cause the same sums
to go much farther towards the relief of the existi: g distress,
House,
naPval'ieaarls"lae'
then he thought those circumstances conclusive against the
doctrine of the Noble Lord. Upon the data which he hid
thelaid
fundstetore
had
de :in, tfohrat
the one
employmentquar teronl oo ff
labour, and that the labour so employed would not be that de-
scription of labour, for those which the Government were most
anxious to find relief. He was well aware that this scheme
had, in the opinion of many Hon. Members. great charms,
hecause it would afford some employment for the people of Ire-
land, and the Government were told that if this great scheme
were rejected to what other sources were they to look for the
relief of the people of Ireland? If there were no other scheme
before the House it might be made some reason for pressing
this measure. But if there be other schemes before the House,
the expenditure of which was very large and tended snore
directly to the relief of the poor, then he said that the argu-
ments fell to the ground, and there was no reason for adopting
the present scheme, in preference to other schemes based sim-
ply upon the advance of large sums to Ireland. He did not
mean to deny that if a large amount of English capital were to
be carried into Ireland it would be of considerable utility to
that country. When, however, such advances were
to be made from the produce of English taxa-
tion, the House ought to consider the subject
before they gave their assent to such a measure. The House
must bs just before they were generous, and that they should
watch carefully over any grants that might he made, and see
that they were properly applied. Taking into consideration
the present amount of the distress in Ireland, it should be con-
sidered that the measure which had been read a third time
this evening (the Destitute Persons Relief Bill), involved a
considerable outlay, and would also afford effectual and imme-
diate relief to the distress of the people of Ireland. The vo-
luntary and unaided exertions of many districts in Ireland had
supported this whole starving population. Net many days ago, he
had received a letter from one district relating that a number of
persons, who were but little removed from destitution, by their
own exertions had raised the sum of 1761., and supported the
destitute poor, of which sum 1361. were subscribed by the
farmers, and only 401. by the landed proprietors. He never
read an account with greater pleasure and satisfaction, and it
gave him hope that the condition of Ireland might still be im-
proved by her own exertions. He regretted, however, that
the same post brought him another letter, from the county of
Mayo, and there he found the landlords were pursuing a
system of ejectment far beyond anything ever attempted yet.
The processes entered at the quarter sessions of Balleybay
were 6,400, of which 4,000 were at the suit of the landlords.
The consequence was, that the people were flying from the
spot, and no doubt many of them had been landed in Liver-
pool. He despaired of improving the condition
of Ireland while this system was going on. The
Hon. Gentleman, the Member fur Bath (Mr. Roebuck),
asked the other night to what extent the means which had
been prepared for the relief of Ireland would be carried. He
had a right, and the country had a right to demand informa-
tion on such an important matter. Before many days passed
he should be able to state definitely to the House the extent of
the relief which the Government proposed should be given to
that country. He was surprised to hear the Han. Member for
Limerick (Mr. S. O'Brien) inquire when this enor-
mous expense was to cease? Enormoss he could
not believe it to he, so long as persons were suffering
from starvation in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) But however the
Hon. Members for Limerick and Wycombe might despair of
the success of the measure which the Government had
proposed ; yet they, and others failed to point out any other
measures which would accomplish the object which they had
in view better.—( Loud cheers.) If he thought this scheme
of lending money to Irish railways was a better scheme than
those the Government had proposed—that it would bring both
food and salvation to the people who were starving in Ireland—
he should not be ashamed to adopt it, from
.whatsoever quarter it
came, not less from the Noble Lord opposite, than from other
lien. Members, but believing that it would not answer
the end for which it was preposed, and as no suggestions had
been made by those resident in Ireland, and practically
acquainted with the question for the framing of a better mea-
sure, he should rely as confidently as he could rely upon the
measures of the Government, as those best calculated to afford
relief to the indigent people of Ireland at the present moment.
In saying this, he was perfectly aware that it was not enough
to deal simply with the present calamity, as he believed that
measures must be framed which must go much further than
dealing with the starvation of the people.—(Loud cheers.)
He was fully convinced that a great change—a revolution, he
might say —in the social condition of the people of Ireland was
necessary.—(Cheers.) He had long entertained that opinion,
and had expressed it before he had the honour to hold his pre-
sent offiee— six weeks before, and immediately after he had bad
an opportunity of reading the papers which arrived at that time
from Ireland. So fir back as September last he expressed his
opinion that, in addition to the question of starvation, there
were others of a much more important character, which that
distress had shown more than ever necessary. In tact, from
the present suffering much good could not fail to be derived.
The failure of the potato was net the least important. The
plots of land ceased to be valuable where they failed to produce
crops. so that those ag.arian outrages which took place for the
purpose of obtaining land would in all probability cease when -1
that land ceased to be valuable. Labourers who came to this
country for the purp.se of labouring in the harvests in England
and Scotland did so in the full confidence that their families in
Ireland would derive support from the patch of potatoes during
their absence. Now this would no longer be the case. Though
the people of Ireland might 110 longer be maintained by the
potato which they cultivated, if advantage were taken of the
calamity, they could not fail to be placed in a better condition.
Then he believed that a change will have taken plac in Ire.
land which would tend materially to the future benefit of the
country, but it was an exceedingly different thing to interfere,
as now proposed. The Irish came over to England to work
upon railways to get in the hay harvest, and the other crops,
but they had yet to learn the use of stated employment and
• s from day to day, that was a mode of employment far
wages
more conducive to the establishment of a sound relation between
master and man, farmer and labourer, in Ireland, than any
landlord or tenant Bill
.whatever. To promote a system of labour
for Ireland. not upon railroads, but upon agriculture, a Bill had
been introduced, carrying out to a greater extent the principle
of making advances to the landed proprietor in Ireland. Much
had been said most unjustly against them ; he believed.hy means
of the Government measure many will be induced to cultivate
their land, who, heretofore, has not paid sufficient attention to
the improvement of their estates, and he was also of opinion
that a great quantity of land, by means of this system, would
be brought into a state of cultivation, affording in-
creased quantity of food and employment for the people.
Their first duty anti care ought to be to increase tke production
of the soil. and the means of agricultural employment. Other
Bills there were of a similar description with which it was not
necessary to go into at any length. 'I hey were Bills far the
improvement and drainage of waste lands; and all these Bills
were framed with the object of improving the soil and increasing
the food of tie country. For these purposes he was inclined to
make any advance necessary, and for the purposes of present
relief, and he was sure that the poorest classes in Ireland would
willingly bear
their share for the assistance of their Irish bre-
thren ; but when he heard, day after day, of the distress in the
country, and knew that many of the mills were t s opped, he
should he ashamed to come to the House and ask for advances
to be taken out of the country. For these reasons he would
oppose the measure of the Noble Lord, and move that it be read
that day six months.

Mr. -BAILEY opposed the motion. He could not consent
to the present measure for the construction of railways in Ire-
land when Scotland was in the same condition of distress. He
would not agree to the grant for Irelaud unless there was one
for Scotland also.—( Hear, hear.) The people of Scotland
were suffering from a similar calamity which was afflicting the
people of lteland ; but because the landed population of that
country were trusting to their own resourc.ts they heardnothing
of grants for public works.—( Hear, hear.) With the permis-
sion of the House, he would point out the course the proprietors
of Scotland had taken to meet the national crisis, and he saw
no reason why the proprietors of Ireland should not have
adopted similar means. In doing so, he would take the ex-
ample of two proprietors in the county which he represented,
not because they were more entitled to notice than many
others in Scotland, but because they had come more especially
under his notice. They were the chief proprietors of the island
of Skye—Lord Macdonald and Mr. Donald Macleod. Skye
contained 26,000 inhabitants, while the rental was 95,004. a
year. It was manifest that at the present price of grain
this rental would not support the population more than two
months. Had not these landowners taken early precautions the
whole population would have been starving. The potato crop
which supported them nine months in the year, had been an
entire failure, and the oats by which they were maintained the
other three, had also been short. He did not believe there
was any part in Ireland which was in a worse condition. In
August last, they were aware of the total failure of the potato
crop in the island, but they did not wait till the calamity over-
took them, but they immediately applied to the Government
for a 'can, for which they offered the security of their estates.
They were referred to the Drainage Act, but they answered,
that it would not answer their purpose in the present form.
They met the views of the House, and the House made such
amendenentsin the Drainage Act as met the views of these Gen-
tlemen. The people in the Highlands had, in consequence,
been set to work at drainage and the culture of land. Of
course, in so large a population, there must be
many persons who could not get labour—(Hear, hear)
and who oust be supported. These had received some little
assistance from the relief committee at Edinburgh, but. with
that exception, the single and undivided support of the people
them Scottish landlords.throughthellhearkvneeswt, butno a not
if
t
all events they had the singular honour of having made their
best endeavours to meet the difficulties of this crisis. Now,
thhaedi r been
resourcese e n
borne
could by
the
carry
with respect to the measure of the Noble Lord, he could very
'Neal understand why the Right Honourable the Lord
Mayor of York could easily convince himself that the
construction of railways was a universal panacea
for every evil.—( Laughter. ) But he was really astonished
that the Noble Lord, the Meml.er for Lynn, should consider
that the future prosperity of Ireland might be trusted to such
a system. Instead of depending on a railway system, it were
better that they turned their attention to the cultivation of
land, and if the population of that country were to have a
better description of food, and he prayed God that they might,
that could only be procured by a better system of cultivation,
which would ultimately, lie thought, relieve that co:at:tip:l
from her present distresses. He had already
consi-
dering the question before
Scottishthe representativeH s
against
to protest in his character of a
h • wished to assist Ire
-
this outlay of the public mo ney. lf t
tors every facility by way of
that he did not rise for the peuurpeose
but
tf
simpl
land, let them grant the prop
loan ands.
Let the Govern-
mentloan for the improvement oft et
moneyl
advanced, and let them
have good security for. h
who were the per-
sonsed to superintend the distri-
bution of it.
d with the Hon. Member for Inverness
Mr. STUART agreed
the compliment be had paid Scottish
to the proprietors,
Irish proprietors,
leave the outlay to the

whose mode of meeting the present evil had made it unneces-
sary for this House to consider for their sake any one of those
important measures, which they were now compelled to con-
sider, with reference ro the alleviation of Irish distresses.
When they were discussing questions to relieve the present
calamities of Ireland, it was essential that everything calculated
to excite acrimonious feelings should be avoided, and he
wished that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had followed the
course which he himself had laid down on this subject. But,
so far from doing so, to his surprise, the Right Hon. Gentle-
man had referred to personal considerations, and had mete,
firmed the names of the Gentlemen upon the back of the
Bill. He thought that if any two names in the kin.clom were
more calculated than others to give 'lnce to a measwe of this
description, they were the names of •he Hon. Aleaibers for
Sunderland and Westmoreland. He denied aiogether tie
character which had been given to this metioure. He nenied
that any man who looked into it could say, that it
was a measure prepared for the relief of the share-
holders and other persons connected wi-h railways.
The avowed purpose of the Bill was to stimulate railways
in Ireland, and thus promote labour. They were told
that the Government was not a set of money lenders to ad-
Vance money on these occasions. If that were to be so, the
objection applied equally to all the measures which they had
been discussing for the relik fof Ireland. The object of the
Bill under it snissian was, that the Government should inter-
pose credit for the assistance of works o a public nature—
( Hear, hear)—likely to employ the people. The Chancellor
of the Exchequer said in at sorer, that the plan had already
failed, and he referred to the case of the Ulster Canal as an

it,•tanee of money lent, and lost to the country. Ha re!erred
to the work of Alt% Porter, who had applied his attention to

the subject of the money lent to the Ulster Canal, and to its
effects, and he found that this gentleman speaking of
the canal, says that during its progress the work
proved a great blessing to the district through
which it passed, and gave constant employment at
fair wages to a great number of labourers, and cured them to a
great extent of their passion fur ardent spirits, and enabled
them to save money out of their wages. The instance to which
the Right Hon. Gentleman referred to as a failure, he referren
to as a success, and he asked if it had not proved a blessing to
the country ? And though it was an improvident loan it we/
of real service to the labourers and other classes. Another
_ .

public work referred to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer as
an instance of money lost to the country was the Dublin and
Kingstown Railway, to which money was lent. They bad before
them many returns of the extravagant cost of railways in their
construction, but the Dublin and Kingstown Railway beat them
all, for it cost no less than 60,0001. per mile, and
yet, with all these disadvantage,,, the railway
had contrived to pay the money advanced and
now returned a profit of 9 per cent. A reference was made
to an Hon. Member for Scotland, and when that Hon. Mem-
._ _

ber was referred to, he (Mr. Stuart) was surprised why he,
above all men, had not spoken in favour of tne expenditure
made by Government. If Lord M'Donald and Mr. 11PLeod
of M'Leod were enabled to support the poor upon their own
estates, was it not owing to the money expended in the coun-
try by Government, and which had conferred the most lasting
benefits to the country? It was matter of notoriety, that not
only had the condition of Scotland been improved by money
advanced by wise statesmen one hundred years ago, but of late
the money advanced by private enterprise had materially
tended to the improvement, and enhanced the value of the coun-
try. There had been formed in Scotland, at the Government
expense, 1,166 miles of roa4, 2nd more than 1,000 bridges. Mr.
Porter had applied his attention to Ireland, and he had already
referred to his account of 'he result of the lodn to the likter
Canal; and he would now refer to Mr. Griffith, one of Mr.
Porter's authorities, to show the material benefit of interns.-

tional communication between even the most barren districts
of Ireland. He had referred to the district between Cork,
Kerry, and Limerick, in the year 1822, as one of the worst
districts in Ireland, and the refuge and habitation of White-
boys, smugglers, and robbers ; and on the formation of a
turnpike road, the country in 1829, only seven years after,
presented an appearance of very considerable inprovement and
industry. Mr. ?Immo, another of Mr. Porter's authorities,
had also referred to this subject, and stated, speaking of a part
of the coun'y of Kerry, that a few years since there
was not a decent public house in it, and the nearest post-office
was thirty miles distant; and since the new road was made
the most considerable improvements had manifested themselves.
He would ask any Hon. Member what in a financial point of
view was the result of the constructions of those works of in-
ternal communication, and whether it had no: contributed
materially to benefit the revenue of the country, and to im-
prove the social condition of the people?—(Cheers.) The
measure of the Noble Lord had been called, most unfairly, a
measure to promote speculation and gambling, and to put the
money of the English tax-payer into the pocets of the Irish
landlords. It was easy to demonstrate to any person, who would
take the trouble of inquiring into the subject, that when the
Noble Lord was accu•ed of inging forward a people for such
a purpose, and calling upon the people of England to pay whe-
ther they would or not a large sum of money for the construc-
tion of Irish railways, that never was there a misrepresentation
more gross, or one which showed more convincingly the igno-
rance of those who made it.—(Cheers from Lord George Ben
. .

tinck. ) He ventured to tell the Hon. Member tor Bath, who
seemed to take so much interest on behalf of the tax-pay►ng

people of England, more even than they did themselves, that
neither he nor the people of England would be called upon
to put their hands in their pocket for a single sixpence.
The way in which the money was proposed to be raised was
such as, he would venture to say, that, if the Hon. Member
for Bath, were carefully to consider, he would feel inclined to
give the measure his most cordial support.—(Cheers.) It
was not proposed to take 4,000,000/. per annum from the
taxes of the country. What was proposed was this, that if
good security were given, money should be advanced to the
different railway companies, upon the credit of the Govern-
ment.—( Hear, hear.) No advances would be made until a
most searching scru my had been instituted by an officer
appointed by the Government, into the merits of the railway
requiring the loan, and until the receipt of whose certificate
was oh.ained as to the probability of the line when constructed
being such as to afford ample remuneration to the share-
holders, and also whether the line were of such a nature as
would afford immediate employment to the people and benefit
to the country, but not till then, was the credit of the Govern-
ment to be pledged.—(Cheers from Lord G. Bentinek's party.)
If the money was raised by means of Exchequer Bills,
Government security would be given to them, and any person
would be at I.berty to purchase them or not, at his pleasure.
The capital of the Exchequer Bills had the security of the
Government pledg,ed for the pa)ment of the principal and
interest of these Bills. Those Exchequer Bills would only be
issued upon the certificate of the Governmynt officers, who was
to report upon the merits of the scheme, seeking the aid of ihe
Government.—( Cheers.) It was not a compulsory measure
to intitle the holders of all shares to come in for a general
scramble of the public money.
Lord G. BEN I'INCK—The officer of the Government
was to be held responsible for the report which he mace.
Mr. STUART—His Noble Frienl had rightly reminded
him of the responsibility of the Government officer who, if he
should make a false report, either by fraud or by error, was to
be held responsible to the Government and the House. The
issue of Exchequer bills would not be the only mode of raising
the necessary money for this purpose ; there was another mode.
which was by the issue of loan debentures similar to those
issued for the construction of railways in Canada, making the
interest payable at the. Bank of England, and guaranteeing the
security of the consolidated fund for the repayment of the
principal and interest.—(Cheers). It was nothing new for
the Government to interfere in the construction and manage-
ment of railways. In Belgium and France the Government
had interfered to a great extent, and although in Belgium the
rates of fares were so low as not to pay a fair rate of interest
for the money expended in the construction of the railways,
still considerable benefits had resulted to the revenue at large
in consequence of the advantages possessed by the
people in their cheap mode of conveyance.—(Hear, hear.)
In his opinion he was borne out by the statements
of Mr. Porter who, in his remarks upon the subject of the
railways in Belgium, stated, " that although the interest ob-
tained from the railway was only a nominal per tentage, still
the nation at large reaped .mmeasurable advantages from the
diminished charges of conveyance, which had been of immense
benefit to the people at large. Some Honourable Mem-
bers seemed inclined to oppose the measure, fearing that
another and greater calamity would arise, upon the grouna
of the Prime Minister of the country having threatened to re-
sign if the measure were carried. It was not impossible to see
that some embarrassment and difficulty would exist in conse-
quence of their resignation. He hoped, however, that Hon.
Members would not be induced to vote in opposition to their
holiest opinions upon this subject in consequence of this threat.
The Right Hon. Baronet, the late Prime islinister of England,
once came down to the House, and u-ed the same threat, and
stated that if the House did not rescind their resolution he
would resign. Some Hon. Members, certainly not much to
their credit, in their anxiety to return the Right Hon. Baronet
to power, accordingly rescinded their votes, and the threat of
the fearful resignation was not carried out. At a later period
during the last se-sion the Right Hon. Baronet endeavoured
to use the same threat upon the Irish Coercion Bill. He was
not, however, able to keep himself in power by such means,
and all the efforts to keep him in power had proved unavailing.
He hoped, therefore, that Hon, Members who were inclined to
support the measure would not be the less inclined to do
so in consequence of the threat of the Prime
Minister to resign if the present measure were carried.
People might say, however, that Belgium was a country where
tie Government was despotic, and held more power than any
Government, over which the people had more control. ell,
what was the case with Great Britain, where the peopl . had
the greatest influence? lie would take the American Go-
vernment—a Government who were wise and prudent, and
who would weigh well, not only the work itself, but the mode
of doing it. What did Mr. Porter say of this Government?
Why that the New York canal, a work of great public import-
ance, was constructed by capital borrowed on the credit of that
Government. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that no
such outlay should take place, unless in a case of great emer-
gei,cy ; but he would ask, when the States which he had re-
ferred to, who were wise and selfish, had executed such works,
could any one doubt for a moment but Ireland apart from the great
importance of the works themselves, bad an especial demand
on them from her present circumstances for the construction
of such works? It was said that the money would be a gift to
the Irish landlords, but that was a mockery and so absurd as
not to require a word from him for its refutation. The question
was, were the objections made by the Noble Lord at the head
of the Government to the proposed scheme of sufficient weight
to induce them to reject it. His first objection was, that it
would give a preference to some railways over others. Suppose
he admitted that, how were the public to suffer ? That was,
in Isis opinion, no justification for the rejection of the scheme.
The next objection he made was, that he was afraid they would
only employ the able-bodied. But he would ask was that no
benefit ? If the money to be expended was to be employed
in that way, he considered that this would be a
material benefit to the labourer who was not able.bodied, for it
would leave hint to be employed on works of a less laborious
character. But the Noble Lord said, that the railroads were
on the east coast, and the starvation was all on the west.
Such an objection was, in his opinion, absurd, for
who could doubt but the able bodied of Galway and
Mayo would resort to the east, to the north, and to the
south, where employment was to be procured.—(Cheers.) s
These arguments were a mockery.—(Cheers.) For, as
Noble Friend beside him reminded him, why did the poorof
Ireland flock to Liverpool, and other parts of England.—
( Cheers.) But there railways, in the
i opinion of the Noble
Lord, were so contingent and remote n their benefits, as to
make them unavailing for the reliefhe of theefexlirsetilnagndthstress
But he would ask, was giving
_! people
.shi system of railway a,
imme-
diate employment no berieotirt?tN
d would give immediate employ-
proposed by the Noble L
ment, and he had the most sanguine hopes that, if the scheme
was adopted, the greatest benefits, and the greatest blessings
would be conferred on the Irish people. (Cheers.)
Mr. F. T. BARING thought, that if the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman who had just sat down had directed his attention to
the arguments of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, instead
dwelling on topics which were not so immediately connected
with the measure, the House would be in a better position to
judge whether these aiguments could be answered. But, in-
stead of that, the Learned Gentleman declined to meet these
arguments, and made a long speech on a variety of subjects
which were not relevant. He would not follow him through
thek state of the
these topics, but confine himself to
finances. Now, he should like to
money would be raised for this irnumoewnsehowoutltahye.
It was said that it could be raised without diffi•
culty, but of this he had very great doubt and if they
issued the Exchequer bills, the Noble Lord who informed them
last night that he was ready to assume the responsibility of
Gi m vernent, might find that they would not go off so particu-
larly easy in the money market.--( Hear, hear.) Exchequer

bills were at present wavering on the holders, and let them take
care when these Exchequer- hills should he issued they should
have to raise the interest not only on the four militons but on
their other rnillons.—( Hear, hear.) lie must say that if that
, would he a benefit to the peel& of England, he had very
lithe confidence in the financial management of the Noble Lord.
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said that they were quite •
sure of repayment for the advances, hut when he came to that
part of the subject he glided into the advantages which would,
in a general way, be derived from public works. He would
ask, however, if they received repayments in similar cases when
money bad been advanced? if they were paid the advances en
the Kingstown railway, he would ask if they rested their argu-
mant only on t het ?—( Hear, hear.) Tne Learned Gentleman -
then fell hack upon the err-cum-tante that due supers ,sier, would
be exercised over the security tha. vertu! be t quired on the
advances. He was afraid, however, if they did that the Bill
would not be likely to have extensive operation in Ireland. Oue
sf the objects !ca• to employ the labouring population. If they
gave the advances orals to these lines which were likely to pay,
the eonsequeeee would be that the bail lines which ran through
the most impoverished districts, woald be neglected, and the
people who lived in those distri, to woo d be unemployed.--
(Hear, hear.) The arguments ie favour of the scheme rested
on two grounds. The first ...as, the teentorary advantaee
it would confer under t'..e present el-cum-latices
of Iretand,
and the see end was, the permanent advautage that eould result.
But the House were informed that only 1.14t0,00a/. out o f
every 4,000,00 e/. advanced would be paid for labour. He pro-
tested, on behalf of the people of England against giving ad-
vantage to Irish railway shareholders, by allowing users; to u-e
for their sole adv.ntagef the capital of the people of Ergland. •
The Hon. and Leal nod Gentleman (Mr. Stuart) centende ri
that employment would be given in plaices where the peop!e stood most in need of it ; but as railways did not run through
parts of a county where there was little er no trade, end where
the people were in a destitute condition, no advantage re ouid be
giv.n to those parts.—( Hear.) To pour in money into the east
of Ireland, without corresponding advantages to the west,
would do little good It would be useless to pour money into
the east whilst the people in the west were starving. There
when a railway ran through a destitute district, the people in
that district who stood so much in need of empleyment, would
not obtain employment.—(Hear, hear.) Even the Hon.
Gen lerean (Mr. stuart) had not denied that. It was true he
had employed the arguments of political economy to show that
if a certain number of persons acre cut of the labour market,
otl ers would fill their places ; but instead of the destitute poor
of Ireland being employed, skilled ‘, navvies" from England
would be employed. Any one who had read the blue books,
which had been published, relating to the condition of
Ireland, could not fail to be of opinion that it was net
advantageous to employ men in masses, but that it was to bring
as far as possible, the work to their own doors.—(Hear, hear. )
That object would not certainly be obtained by this Bill. The
Bill had been represented as a great and comprehensive mea-
sure, and the Hon. Gentleman had devoted a great part of his
speech to quoting authorities—Mr. Porter amongst the num-
ber—to show that it was entitled to come under this definition.
He admitted that in some instances it was advisable for the
Government, in some cases, to advance money for the
construction of great public wells. In 1839 he voted for
Mr. Drummund's Bill with respect to Irish railways—(" Hear,
hear," from Lord George Bentinck)—but he never bad more
difficulty in giving a vote in his life, than he did on that oc-
casion, and sebsequent considerations had not removed that
difficulty. Such undertakings as railways ought, he thought,
to be left to private and indivit:ual enterprise. Other countries
had followed a different course with respect to railways, and the
systems were not deficient in advantages ; Irene of which were
to be found in " this great and comprehensive measure." Did
Belgium advance money to railway companies? No. It
took the whole railway commueication of the country into its
own hands. But he should have objected to such a
project if it had been proposed. But the management of a
railway by the Sta e possessed great advantages. In the bands
of private persons they were monopolies, but as in the other
ca-e the Post-office would have free transit, and the people
would have the advantage ot travelling at a moderate rate, be-
cause railways, in that case, would virtually be the property of
the public. The Noble. Lord's measure proposed nothing of
the kind. There were great advantages to the proprietor of
railways, but no advantages to the public, as in Belgium.
After the passing of the Bill the monopoly in railways would
be the same as before. The lines would go on, but those
which did not would he handed over to the Government.—
(Loud cheers.) That unquestionably would be the result.
What he said was, deal with the pressing emergency first,
and then calmly deliberate on such a project.
That certainly was not the time for such a measure. France,
for instance, did not advance funds to parties for the construc-
tion of railways without securing great advantages in return.
The mails passed over the tines free of expense, but there was
no such provision here. They granted a lease for a certain
number of years, at the expiration of which they fell into the
hands of the Government, in trust for the benefit of the
public. The advantages derived from such a system were
stated to be so great, that if this country had adopted it when
railways were first constructed, the pr„ fits which they would
have pro,ueed would have paid the national debt.—(Hear,
hear, and cheers.) This certainly could not be accomplished
by the proposition of the Noble Lord ; as it seemed
to him so deficient in advantages, that he was sur-
prised that the Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Essex, (Sir
J Tyrrell), should support it. It was not capable to meet
the emergency of the present moment, and was wholly defi-
c.ent in the requisites for a permanent measure altogether. If,
however, they lent 16.000,0001 out of the funds destined for
the employment of the people of England, for the employ-
ment of the people of Ireland, they should have some equiva-
lent advantage in return. And if they followed the policy of
foreign Governments, at least let them follow their pt udence
also; and do not let them advance their money, not for the
purpose of meeting the emergency or the moment, but for the
purpose of addine, to the strength ot monopoly, and would
not accomplish the object for which it was brought forward.
—( Haar, hear. )
Sir J. TYRRELL said, although the Hon. Gentleman had
came to the rescue of Goverment they had witnessed some
extraordinary things in the conduct of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, and his conduct on this occasion had shown this
more forcibly. He had travelled through various parts of Ire-
land, and witnessed the lamentable distress of the people. The
poor-law of Ireland was extremely defective, so much so that
he feared no proper machinery could be devised. He thought
that the measures proposed by her Majesty's Government—
their " potato and kettle measure," and their soup ticket mea-
sures"—utterly tailed in comparison to the measures of the
Noble Lord. The Noble Lord at the foia,l of the Government had,
improperly he thought, made the question one et n confidence."
lle did feel most anxerus to ascertain what were the sentiments
which the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tam worth
held on this occasion, but neither he nor the late Chancellor
of the Exchequer had as yet thought proper to favour the
House and :he country with their opinions. But as they had
not that satisfaction, it might be plcas.ng to the country to
know what were the opinions which the Right Ho-
nourahble Gentleman formerly held and it was pos-
sible that the. Noble Lord at the head of the Government
might arrive at a proper conclusion of what those opinions
were, by arguing that they were now exactly the reverse of
what they formerly were.—( Laughter.) In March, 1839, on
a question of a grant of money to Ireland for the purposes of
railways. the Member for Tamworth stated that the money
difficulty was the last which he contemplated, and that if he
opposed the adoption of the measure, he desired
that it might not be understood that the ground
of his objection to it would be money. Hear.)
let it since b, shown unto him that the measure would benefit
Ireland, and the expense attendant would not deter him from
adopting it. But that he greatly feared that the very proposal
would expose the Government to enormous difficulty, from the
interest ot the proprietors of the estates contiguous to the dif-
ferent lines. In the county of Essex, the sum of sixty thousand
had been expended in law proceedings in the Colchester and
Harwich line, which was only twenty miles long. It was
monstrous that such a sum should be thus lost. He would put
every Member in the box to prove the great danger which
arises from leaving these kind of speculations to private enter-
prise. Any person coining down to the House, about four
o'clock, would find the streets thronged with legal men and
their blue bags. He firmly believed that two-thirds of the
jewellery in London we: purchased by members of the legal
profession.—( Great laughter.)
Mr. DILLON BROWNE said he was not influenced in
the vote which he was about to give by the statement of any
threat on the part of the Government ; in fact, he believed
that no threat was really held out. He was not prepared to
support the proposition of the Noble Lord the Member for
Lynn, because he conceived by such a vote he would be de-
claring a confidence in the Noble Lord, and a want of confidence
in her Majesty's Ministers. Under no circumstances would
he be prepared to support the policy of the Noble
Lord until he found out from him what were
his intentions respecting the political amelioration of
Ireland. He could not forget that the party of which the
Noble Lord was the powerful and intelligent leader, for cen-
turies had beenthe consistent opponents of civil and religious
liberty. He could nut rorget that they had been the con-
sistent supporters ot monopoly, both as regarded the commer-
cial and pol tieal interests of the country ; and until he had
heard the distinct declaration of the Noble Lord as to what
would be his policy, he was not prepared to give him a vote
that would have the effect of bringing him into office. He
eeuld not forget that he opposed the Catholic Eman-
cipation Act— (Cries of " No, no.")—that he opposed
the Reform Bill.—(Cries of "No, no.") His party did—
that he opposed any settlement of the Church tluestion in Ire-
land and his party were opposed to the present settlement of
the Church question in Ireland. He most cordially declared
that he would give his vote to the Member for Lynn if he de-
clared to him what policy he was prepared to pursue in regard
to the franchise, or to give an increased representation to Ire-
land. He desired to know what policy he would adopt re-
specting an appropriation ot the surplus revenue of the
Church in Ireland to secular purposes, and also
with regard to a measure shortly to be brought before
the House respecting waste lands in Ireland—a measure which
he looked upon as one calculated to infuse a new element in tke
social system of that country. He consioered that it would
create a body of independent yeomen in the country. He con-
sidered that the Noble Member for Lynn's measure was more
calculated to benefit the landed interest than the people.
Any Minister who wished to recommend himself to the popular
opinion of Ii elaird, must support a system for the creation of a
sturdy, rustic, and rural population of Ireland; and he could
not forsake such a system as the present Government had
in crew for the sake of suptiorting the measure of the Noble
Lord opposite. He entertained doubts of the sympathiest
ofe
he
or the oeep interest taken in, the condition of thaenpdeabseafnorray
Ireland, by either the Noble Lord or his par. tY ;
Noble Lord's Bills
could give his support to the N
and
if
'lt'hhee
he must have some guarantee p that
or make him-
Noble Lord wished to Barry thieve
preve that he was actuated
people of Ireland required thatt suguvoairltntee,
no unanimity in the Noble
by no selfish motor
the subject of supporting or assisting the
self popular in Ireelsa.ndeThiteeretnwnas
Lord's party upon who was desirous of improving
tenant in possession
the other hand they supported
a system whichwhile
characterised the Government in
London engendered absenteeism, and if the Noble Lord
nt
perpetuate that system, he must make land respell-
ibdto
for and
the maintenance of its own poor.--( Hear, hear.
sirendßepresenting, as he did, a large constituency in Ireland, he had felt it to be his duty thus frankly to express his views
upon the measure now before the House, and upon the subject
of Ireland generally, rather than to give a silent vote upon this
occasion. He attributed the want of energy and improve-
ment in Ireland to misgovernment and class legislation, and
until these abusive systems were abandoned, Ireland would still
continue to be a burden to this country.—( Hear, hear.) He
must, however, thank the Noble Lord for the generous spirit
he had displayed towards Ireland. He thought it was well cal-
culated to improve the feeling in Ireland towards England. and
while he disapproved of his measure he could not forget his noble
statement, that he would stake his head upon the block for the
loyalty of the Irish if they were treated with justice, nor his
truthful statement that the Irish people would spill the last
drop of their blood in defence of this country were they pro-
perily treated and properly legislated for.--( Hear, hear. )
Lord BERNARD should give his vote in favour of the Noble
Lord's measure, because he considered it was highly calcu
laced to meet the present emergency. He did not believe that
it was liable to the objections that had been urged against it,
nor did he believe that it would enhance the value of any
railway which did not merit, or
which w
s
intrinsically valuable in itself. He confidentlyexpected
a thatnot
before any money were advanced to a railway under this
its merits and tea:urea would be carefully scrutinised, and he
therefore could not understand how the measure could give a
stability to wild and bad schemes without conferring any benefit
upon the good. It had been said that these railways would
not go through those districts in Ireland which most required