The Sun.
London, England, 1841-06-05 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONtION, SATTIIDA Y, jUNES, 1841.

- ( sources of the country upon bad principles, and with in order to carry his Bill. They had yielded on that point i
) the utmost confusion and wade, and which ended their opinion to their opponents in order to secure the passing
el iin the discomfiture of the Queen's forces and the loss of Our- of the ineasure.—( Cheers.) There had been no loss of dignity
n teen colonies—but it was confessed that the case brought for- to the Noble Lord by the adoption of such a proceeding, and
- ward was one totally different and founded on different with reference to the House of Commons and the House of
- principles ; but then the Right Honourable Gentleman was Lords, while they were constituted as they were at present, he
s aware that this was a case in which a contest was maintained was persuaded that every Ministry to carry their measures I
Et by a Minister of the Crown against a majority of the House, must be prepared te, make compromises and concessions to
a in• which during a considerable period of time a majority of their opponents —(Cheers)—and that if any Government were
, the House declared that the Minister of the Crown was un • ever to adopt an opposite course, and attempt to pass measures
t worthy of their confidence. Yet this Minister continued in without listening to their opponents, such a Ministry would
i office. Now with regard to the general principle on which so deservedly lose the confidence of the House and of the country.
• much had been said in the course of the discussion, he at once On another part of that Bill that relating to the interests
f assented to it, and he certainly did not hear the President of of the existing incumbents, so strongly had Lord
the Board of Control say anything different. The Right Hon. Althorp felt the force of the arguments of the Right Hon.
Gentleman said that the case of Mr. Pitt, in 1784, Baronet the Member for Tamworth that after requesting a
I was a peculier case, because in that case Mr. Fox complained short time to consider the subject he had acceded to the sug-
, of the manner in which the Administration came into office, gestions of the Right Hon. Gentleman, so that these con-
that Administration having been charged with secret influ- cessions were not matters of such entire novelty—(Cheers)—
ence, and that the Ministry was created in consequence of the and without them it would be impossible to conduct any Go-
destruction of the .former Administration by that secret influ- veroment, more especially if the necessity of carrying through
ence. Now that, so far as it went, was a true statement, but great legislative measures should be imposed on them.—
at that time there was another question in dispute between (Cheers.) With respect to the general results of that legislae
Mr. Fox and Mr. Pitt, namely, the great question of the India tion, if they looked back to the records of the Statute-book
Bill. Mr. Fox maintained that he had formed his Bill during the time in which any of those great men to whom he
on the true principles of the Constitution, while Mr. Pitt de. had alluded had taken a leading part in the legislation of the
dared that it would establish a fourth estate and be utterly country, they would find but few instances of the abrogation of
destructive °That Constitution. Now was it on that measure ancient bad taws, or of the introduction of new enactments;
that it depended whether Mr. Pitt should remain in office or but when they looked back to the time that Lord Grey and
not? After Mr. Pitt proposed his measure he was defeated Lord Melbourne had been in office, it was impossible not to see
on the question for going into Committee by a majority of the that great changes had taken ; lace, some of them entirely in
House. But it was held that the loss of the India Bill, matters of legislation, and others in matters relating
though the great measure of Mr. Pitt's administration, to administration as well —( Loud cheers.) The Right
was not sufficient ground for his resigning office ; did Mr. Honourable Gentleman had said that if he came to the
Fox deny that doctrine ? No. Mr, Fox, so far from affirming administration of the affairs of this country it should
it, affirmed a doctrine exactly opposite.—( Loud cheers.) Mr. be recollected that he hart been ten yea's out of administration,
Pitt remained in office, hiving lost his Bill, and Mr. Fox con- and therefore he must take time to consider the whole financial
curred in opinion that the loss of that Bill nas no reason for the situation of the country. He (Lord Johns Russell) must con-
resignation of office by Mr. Pitt. Yet they had the fess that that seemed to him a somewhat curious statement of
Vice-President of the Pitt Club proposing this resolu. the Right Hon. Gentleman, as if he had not been narrowly
tion ; and a Gentleman who said he maintained the watching the progress of affairs.—(Cheers.) But taking
principles of Mr. Fox supporting it.--(Loud cheering.) the Right Hon. Gentleman's own position, he (Lord John
That was a doctrine which both of these Statesmen would Russell) woad describe to him the changes which be would
have altogether repudiated if they had heard it propounded.— find had taken place since he had quitted the administration of
(Hear, hear.) But the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, the the country. When he left the administration off affairs, he
Member for Exeter, said it was quite true that in the case of left the power of sending from 150 to 200 Members to that
the loss of Mr. Pitt's Fortification Bill, and aitain, in the case House, entirely in the hands of individuals, who either returned
of Lord Liverpool's Property. tax, those Ministers were not themselves, or bargainectfor the patronage of the Government
called upon to resign, although they had tailed in their attempt to return the friends of that Government, or sold the represen •
to carry those measures, merely because there was evidently no tation for a yearly pension. He left the great manufacturing
other Pinistry at the time to succeed them. But the present towns, such, as Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, and Sheffield,
resolution said nothi gof that. The resolution was an absolute the great seats of our manufacture and commerce totally un-
resolution, wh ch said that the " continuance of Mi- represented. He would find no such nomtnees in existence
nisters in office, under such circumstances, was at now, and he would find the great manufacturing towns
variance with the spirit of the Constitution. Now, in his admitted to the elective franchise.—( Loud cheers.) When he
opinion, the resolutionlought to contain some parenthesis, such as left the Administration, he left 800,000 human beings consi-
that appended to the resolution of the Noble Lord the Mem- dered as goods and chattels, treated with all the humanity of
ber fir Liverpool on the sugar duties, in which the resolution brute beasts—(Cheers)--disposed of as mere property, and
was saved by the words " especially when a certain amount of liable to all the misfortunes attending compulsory labour.
sugar was likely to be introduced into the country." • The He would now find them all free men, in the enjoyment of
Right Hon. Baronet in a similar way should have added to his houses and property, and as well off as any labourer on the
proposition, " especially where these are other Gentleman face of the earth.—( Loud cheers.) He left such abuses in the
perfectly able and perfectly willing—(Hear, hear, and administration of the Poor-law as were rapidly swallowing up
laughter)—to succeed them." He hoped that the the landed property of the country and debasing the character
Right Hon. Baronet, in order to make his resolution agree of the labouring classes. He would find the landed property
with the admission of the Hon. and Learned Member for and the country freed from that danger, and the labouring
Exeter, and with the course of Parliamentary precedents,would classes raised in character.—( Cheers,) He left the municipal
prudently amend his resolution in that sense. What he had corporations, in many instances, self-elected, in all administer-
stated regarded the general tenure of the resolution as regarded ing large funds, disposing of those funds; very often corruptly,
the constitutional preceeents; and it appeared to him after but always without popular control or superintendence,
what he had alleged, and after the arguments of his Right Hon. He would find that popular control had been introduced in
Friend, that there could be nothing more clear than that, so order to improve the management of the funds and to reform
far from agreeing with the spirit of the Constitution, the rsisb- local government.—( Hear, hear.) He left the tithes a source
lution itself would affirm an entirely new precedent, a prece- of constant dispute between the clergyman and his parishioners,
dent which, as he would go on to show, would be neither a constantly making those relations which should be those of
vote for that House to adopt, nor would it be an example for peace, and charity, and benevolence, relations of disunion and
any future Ministry, who regarded the welfare of the of ill. will. He would find that those sources of contention had
country, to follow.—( Hear, hear.) Now, let them been removed, and that that Church which the Noble Lord
consider what had been the course of the Constitu- who had just spoken, said they had done so much to injure—
' tion of late years ; because he supposed there was ( Hear, •hear)—was avowedly more strengthened by the mea-
,no one who would not admit that a change of circumstances— suresfor their removal than by any measure which had been
that a different course of legislation had of late taken place; passed by any previous Administration. He was not to be
and that although the form of the Constitution remained the told that that plan was partly the plan of the Right Honourable I
same, yet the mode in which it was to be carried must vary Gentleman. The attempt was first made by Lord Althorp, and
from time to time. Now, if the House would corsider what if they had had the misfortune, like Lord Althorp, to introduce
had been the course of public affairs in the last century, he a Bill on the subject of tithes for two successive years, without
thought they would see that that which was then required of a carrying it through the House, they wouldnodoubt have heard of
Ministry supposed a very different task, and, at the same that as a part of the offence.—( Hear, hear.) The important
time, a much less difficult one than that which was imposed fact was that they had introduced a measure which, in the
upon any Ministry at the present day. If they looked back to course of a few years, promised to extinguish all the evils of
the course of that debate, they would find that it was not the the old system.—( Hear, hear.) He had hinted at the Poor_
course of their Administration they had been discussing—it had law Act for England. In Ireland the Right Hon. Gentleman
not been a charge of crippling the resources of the country, of left the poor, the destitute, the maimed, and the infirm with-
having involved the Country in any dangerous or unnecessary war, out any legal provision whatsoever. He would find that, after
or having exposed it to an insurrection which they could not debates which occupied two months, provision for such per-
suppress, but it had been that certain measures brought before sons was provided by law, and he believed the foundation was
Parliament for its approval had not met with the support of laid for a great social and moral improvement in .Ireland.—
the House. Now if they looked back to the history of the ( Hear ) The Right Hon Gentleman left a constant source of
greatest statesmen of this country—of those who had enjoyed dispute between the Clergy and the Dissenters with respect to
'most power and influence, and whose names were most re- the performance of the marriage ceremony according to the
spected and looked up to as illustrated by their genius for the rites of the Church of England, and the necessity of receiving
direction of affai..s—if they looked to the history of Sir R. baptism in the Church of England in order to obtain the re-
Walpole, of Lord Chatham, of Mr. Pitt, and Mr. Fox—if they gistration of the births of children of Dissenters. He would find
looked to the careers of these great men, and examined what that acts had keen passed to remove those causes of grievance,
were the legislative measures which they had recommended and that those grievances had been removed which were at
and carried th. ough Parliament, they would have a very once simple, at.d which was not complained of by any party.
meagre return indeed.—(Hear, hear.) It was not that they He had spoken of the English Corporation Act. The Right
did not answer all that was required of them in their time— Hon. Gentleman left the corporations of Ireland the seats of
it was not that they were not Wily equal to the conduct exclusiveness and intolerance, to the injury of the great mass
of affairs according to the different principles they professed, of the people. At present the right principle had been intro-
but that the usage of the Constitution did not then require that ducted, although it had not been acted upon, as he (Lord
those at the head of the Administration should bring fig- J. Russell) thought it would have been in its details, but the
ward legislative measures, and for the most part during the last right principle had been introduced of making the corporntions
century it even required that they should take aguniform part of the great towns of Ireland subject to popular control.—
either an supporting or rejecting legislative measures. Of ( Hear, hear.) There was another subject to which he must
late years, however, and especially since the passing of the ask the attention of the House for a moment ; it was one not
Reform Act, the country and the Constitution required a dif• exciting certainly much party discussion, but upon which a
ferent course of conduct. What with the necessity for legisla- very great change had taken place, and in which the present
tion—what with the wish of carrying Bills through that House Administration had borne their part ; he referred to the
on the part of individual Members—what with the great amendments in the criminal law. He spoke, then, nat of
changes which were so long delayed until the passing of the mere formal amendments, but of amendments which had
Reform Act, and which were required very suddenly and in altered the number of prisoners who had been both sentenced
great number—for all these different reasons, it was generally to death and executed. He had asked for a return the other day
and usually expected that the Members of the Government of the number, from 1821 inclusive. He found
should bring forward hills upon'suhjeels exciting public atten- that in the first five years, tp 1825, there were 5,220
,on, and that they should do their best to. forw-ard_thosea Bills sentenced to death, and 364 executed, being an average of 75
through Parliament. But while that was the case, he must yearly; that from 1826 to 1830 there were 6,679 sentenced to '
say that he did not think that they could at the same time re- death, and 388 executed, being an average of 61 yearly. Taking I
quire that general and uniform support from the House of the period from 1831 to 18357 inclusive, there were 5,059 sea- '
Commons which had been refused fur Ministers, who had fenced to death and 210 executed, hieing an average of 42. In
merely to defend their administrative acts. When a Minister, the five years from 1836 to 1840 there were 1,181 sentenced to
in possession of all the necessary information, stated his views death,and only 51 executed, being an average of 10 yearly. So
to the House cf Commons, the House should either give him that while in the first 19 years 672 prisoners were executed—
their confidence, or deprive him of it in such a manner, and in the last 10 yearsthere were but 261, and in the last five years
by such tokens, that he could not be mistaken when he had • but 51. Now this was a change which the Right Hon. Gen-
lost it. Put with respect to measures relating to legislation— tleman would find in the law. It was a change still going on
with respect to measures, for instance, relating to tithes, re• neth*regard to the liability to capital punishment, and it was a
lating to the criminal law or a Poor-law—with respect to all change which he (Lord J. Russell) certainly regarded with
or any of these subjects, and others of a similar kind, the Mem- great sat, sfaction. Now put together these various Acts, the Re-
bees of the House might support a Ministry to a certain de- form Act, the Abolition of Slavery Act, the Poor-law Act, the
tree, but he did not think that they would ever find Municipal Corporation Act, the English Tithes Act, the Irish
that entire confidence which might be given to Poor-law Act, the Registration of Births, Deaths, and Mar-
administrative measures. Therefore, if they said lieges Act, the Irish Corporation Act, the Acts for the amend-
upon the one hand that new duties had been imposed upon mint of the Criminal Law ; added to those, perhaps, the
Ministers, they must on the other hand make that fair Canada Union Act; and he 'would ask whether in an 3 ten
allowance for the effects of discussion and of deliberation-- years—( Hear, and loud cheers from the Liberal Benches)—
first, on the part of Members, and then on the part of their Administrations of that country had ever introduced greater
constituency. As the Right Hon. Baronet had brought for- and more important measures—( Hear, hear)---had introduced,
ward this motion, founded entirely upon the failure of Legis- he would say, greater and mere important improvements ?
lative measures, he should ask the Right lion. Baronet what (Loud cheers.) And yet it was upon their legislation that
were the measures passed during his administration? But he they were to be censured by Hon. Gentlemen opposite.—
( Lord John Russell) knew of none, and as the Right Hon. ( Hear, hear.) Putting aside and giving up every question of
Gentleman the Member for Pembroke had referred to these internal and external administration, every thing done by the
measures in a spirit of unusual virulence, he should also make Executive at home, in the colonies, and abroad, founding their
some allusion to the measures adopted, and the defeats Ms.. charges solely upon what had been done by Ministers to pro-
tainted, while they were both Members of an Administration mote legislation—it was upon legislation, and the failure of
whichovhatever else might be said of it, did not want a very consi- legislatinn, that they founded their charges.—(Cheers. ) This
derable majority during a great:part of it s career in that House—he was a part of what had been done, omitting minor and inferior
meant the Administration of which Earl Grey was at the head, acts which were not, without their importance; but se it h which he
with Lord Althorp for its leader in that House. With respect to would not trouble the House then. These were the important
the first of those Administrations, that with which the Right changes which had been introduced by the Administration so
Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, was connected, he charged, and, he would say, so calumniated on the other side cf
should observe that when he (Loid John Russell) proposed a the House.—(Great cheering from the Liberal benches.)
Repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts, the Right Hon. Let it be reeollected, too, that these great changes, beginning
Gentlemen opposed the motion, which, however, was carried with the Reform Act, exhibited none of the fatal and
by a majority of upwards of 40.—(Hear, hear.) But did any direful effects of revolution ; that they had not seen what
one say that the Right Hun., Baronet should resign office in had aceornranied great changes in former days in this country,
consequence cf that, or did the Right Hon. Baronet himself almost in the present day in other countries. Civil war and
purpose to do so? Far from it. 'f he Right Hon. Gentle- the effects of the division of parties running to arms against
man expressed, on the contrary, his willingiuss to contribute each other. On the contrary, while these charges were made
to the best of his power to carry the measure into effect. But with respect to the management of the finances, the security of '
the discomfiture of the Right Hon. Gentleman did not stop the public funds stowed that there had been increasing prcepe-
there, because, when the measure was next brought forward, ritv from the time when, in 1830, Lord Grey's Administration
the Right Hon. Gentleman declared that he looked upon the took office, he you'd even say, from 1835, the period taken
art as founded onbigotry, intoierae ce, or the relic of times of reli- toy the Noble Lord opposite ; nor while these changes were
gious persecution, and as one which should therefore be repealed. going on, had there been any serious disturbance of the public
On that question the Right Hon. Gentleman had been opposed peace. He (Lord J. Russell) had been sensitive—perhaps it
to him (Lord J. Russell). Ile did not divide, but he left the might be said rather too sensitive—with regard to what were
House in the possession of himself, an humble individual Mem- called organic changes ; fearing that, after the Reform Act,
her ; and when the vote had been carried against the Right changes of the same kind would lead to a perpetual habit, and
Hon. Baronet in his absence, his excuse was that he had been and a perpetual desire of change, which at length might en-
out of the House to take some refreshment—(Cheers)—and danger the most valuable and the most sacred institutions. But
that had taken place under a strong Administration— his allegation was, that in making very considerable changes,
( Cheers)—and not a weak or an imbecile one.—( Cheers and and very great improvements, the country had gone on to in-
laughter. 1 What had been the great measure of the next year? crease, that prosperity had not been disturbed, but, on the con-
Now, it had so happened that in the year 1827 the Right Hon. trary, the peaceful pursuits of industry had thriven as much as
Baronet had seoken on the subject of the relief of the Roman under a Tory Administration, who thought it their chief glory
Catholics from the disabilities under which that' then laboured, to leave things alone—( Hear)—to leave upon the statute-
and he had then stated that such a measure was one which ad- book the laws of the most barbarous times, to leave in their
mitred of no doubt, a compromise, because it was incompatible administration relics of the days of the worst and the greatest
with the maintenance of the Constitution, and the welfare and corruption.—(Hear, hear.) He had stated what he thought
safety of the Church.—( Hear, hear.) Yes, ia 1829, the had been the general changes that they hail made, and he
ltigt Honourable Baronet had brought forward that did not think it necessary, at that late period of the debate, to
very measure, stating, at the same time, most fairly detain the House by going through all those instances
and candidly, that it was the measure of his opponents, and which had been stated of measures that had been de-
not his own—(Cheers)—and the only reason he had given for feated, but he would refer to three or four of the
passing that measure at that time, which had not existed be- most prominent upon which this resolution was founded.
fore, was, that there existed large bodies of persons bonded and —( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman stated the
congregated together in Ireland, and that by threats and me- instances of the Appropriation Act, the Jamaica Act, and
naces those bodies had controlled the Administration, of which the Budget. The Noble Lord then proceeded :—With regard
the Duke of Wellington was the head, a measure which they to the Appropriation Act, we thought it our duty to introduce
themselves had previously declared to be incompatible with a Bill which was likely to pass through Parliament without re.
the welfare and safety of the Church, and with the maintenance taining the clause which we had insisted on. We agreed,
of the Constitution--(Loud cheers)—and all that had taken therefore, to the change proposed in the Bill, but that change
place under a strong Government. On that measure the then did not carry out the change made by the Right Hon. Gentle-
government had been opposed by half their usual supporters man, because we were supported in it by the House of Corn-
in a manner—and opposed in a manner the most virulent and 1 mons. We carried it through the House of Commons, and it
acrimonious—(Cheers)—and yet they had obtained constant was in the House of Lords the proposition was made to leave
Majorities, from the attendance and support given to them by out the clause. I admit that we had not the support of the
the Opposition during the whole time.—(Loud cheers.) Was 'country in the manner we expected, but that was no proof of a
'hat a circumstance altogether new ? The Noble want of confidence.—( Hear, hear.) But when the Right
Lord who had just sat down had not then spoken Hon. Baronet says that he considered the resolution as not
of the contemptible state to which an Administration being final, although I considered anywelf bound to support the
had been redut eel, he had not expressed his amazement at this settlement that had been made, yet I could not advise
conduct, or complained of their acting contrary to the spirit those who opposed the resolution to be so extremely
of the Constitution; and yet such were the accusations brought certain that the time will not come when it will be carried.--
against the present Administration, because on some measures (Hear, hear. ) I say this, provoked by the allusions that have
of infinitely less importance they had 'done eccas:onaliy that been made, but I state it without any. intention of departing
which had been done by the Right Hon. Baronet in 1829. from the settlement which has been made, on the contrary I
LLoud cheers.) Then came the Administration of which have given it my support, and intend to uphold the law as it at
ord Gyey was the head. One of the first things which had present exists. The next case to which the Right Hon. Ba•
occurred to that Administration had been their defeat on the ronet alluded was the Jamaica Bill, and I think the manner in
proposition for an alteration. in the timber duties by a majority which the Right Hon. Baronet treated that question was not
of 4-6 ; other measures respecting the budget had been with- marked with his usual candour nor in a manner we had a right
drawn by that Administration. In the next Parliament to expect, for hehad stated that because we agreed to his sue-
that Administration had an overwhelming majority in t gestion with respect to that measure that therefore it must be
that House, the party who were now bring.ng far-. 1 considered that we had hot the confidence of the House. We con-
ward the present motion did not in that Parliament sidered that the defeat we received upon that measure was such
arnepnt to more than from 120 to 140, yet in • that i that we were called upon to resign office. We did so, and for doine
Parliament the M;nistry were more than once defeated.— I so we were told even by the Duke of Wellington that we were pre-
t.'Cheers.) On the question of the malt tax, for instance, mature. The Right Hon. Gentleman was called upon to form an
eel. being defeated on a division, Lord Alt.horp had asked the Administration, but in consequence of the circumstances, to
House no rescind that resolution. and on that occasion the whi:'h I will not recur—( Hear, hear)—the Right Hon. Bat_
Right Hun. Baronet the Member for Tamworth had most ronet did not succeed in doing so. The Right Hon. Baronet
fairly and handsomely come down to the House to support the came down to the House andk rssthated various reasons
erreitalseomnesoviothoythhee
Ministry, and had lent the authority of his name to induce the had found it difficult to carry on the Government of ovifhtohme ctohuenre.
House to rescind that resolution.—(Cheers.) But the Right try. The Hon. Gentleman has taunted us with our small'
Was not this,
Hon. Baronet the Member for Pembroke had not then felt divisions, but he shoulds recollect that such was %vas n„t the case
Peae
itiP Gentleman
Commons had
surprise—(Cheers)—the Noble Lord the Member for North on the question of the
Llniiashire had not then been struck with amazement, and other side of the House proposed
Hear, hear. )
expressed their opinion that such could be no objection in point of character and fitness, and
neither of them had then
generosity had never before been seen.—(Loud cheers.) But the result was that there was a majority of 18 in fabour of the
that was not the only instance. The Noble Lord and himself candid ite proposed by her Majeshtye's Ministers,Heu
(Lord J. Russell) had been parties to another measure I would ask, a proof that t
the proper
which had been materially =stifled in consequence no confidence in the Honoura.ble Members opposite,
of the opposition it had met with. In bringing but that it had confidence itne _us ?....(
forward the Church Temporalities Bill, the Noble Lord had, The Right Hon. Gentleman has quoted d_another instance, with
to give him an
es he thought on jest grounds, laid down the proposition that regard to the New Poor-law Bill. I wish, Sir Ire had not
the amount realised by the commutation of Church leases, MIS mentioned that question on the presentti occasion_
not the property of the church, but of the State.—(Cheers.) time to mention that Bill was when te Bill was before the
House of Parliament
But when they found the Bill was not likely to pass the other House.—(Cheers.) Had the Right Hon. Gentleman then
while, moreover, ,if it contained such a provision, and stated his objections, I should have been ready
it met in then House great opposition, the answer to each of those objections he. now makes.
3 I should
Noble Lord proposed to withdrew the glause. He gave it up then have been prepared to have given a proper answer, to

_ .
those objections upon which he so unfairly statesour conduct ; a declared his opinion on that subject. In 1831 he said thati
but I do nct think it is fair to interpose the merits of that Bill 'it appeared that a Minister brought forward measures for the
iti a great party questit n, the Right Hon. Gentleman having. good of theoceuntry, and found himself defeated, reference
remained silent during the numerous debates which took place should be made to the opinions of the country. Such was the
upon it.—(Cheers.) I will, however, mention one instance ; opinion of the Noble Lord in 1831, and why was it not his
he finds fault with us for not incorporating in our Bill those opinion now ? The Noble Lord had assented to this opinion
alleviations which were recommended by the Committee, and then,why support this resolution?—(Cheers, and cries of "Ch,
made by the orders of the Commissioners. Now, Sir, those mat- oh !") On the whole state of the case, and the whole case of
ters were very fully discussed by the Government, and had the the Administration, I beg the House to consider that this
question been brought forward at the proper time, I could have is a resolution supported and made out by a reference
given him an answer. I had directed clauses to be drawn in to various legislative measures, the Ministry having brought
respecting those alterations recommended by the Committee, forward more legislative measures, and carried more legislative
ai.d embodying the orders of the Commissioners, but when I measures of a useful nature than perhaps any other Ministry
came to consider the c:auses, it seemed to me, andto others with the exception of Lord Grey's.—(Cheers.) With respect
well acquainted with the subject, that looking at the Act of to the state of affairs of the administration of the executive 1 beg
Elizabeth, and the wide interpretation which had been given the House to consider that during the whole debate no delis_
to it, it would be better to keep those matters of detail to be quency has been proved aguinst us.—(Cheers.) No weakness
carried out by orders of the CoMinissioners. Take, for in- has been shown—(Cheers, and counter cheers)—eitherat home
stance, the ease of a labourer, with 'one of the family ill with .or abroad. The flight Hon. Gentleman on one occasion ac-
sickness, and relief were to be given to him, as it now is, in cased us of wishing to abandon a vessel we found unable any
order to enable him and others of the family to go on with 1 nger to manage. I must say with regard to the present
their Mork; but suppose that were to be introduced into the state of affairs I see nothing to induce any Minister to
I
Bill, who could say that it would not renew all the evils of the desire to quit office, or any gentleman to be unwilling
old system, and that labourers in full employment, and obtain- to accept office. On the contrary, I think the state of affairs
(ing wages, might not again be paid out of the Poor-rates ? at home and abroad is such as to give great facility to the Ad-
Cheers.) '1 lie security of the orders by the Commissioners ministration, that the affairs of the country, if we leave office,
is that they might be varied from time to time, according will be found in as flourishing a condition, and its character to
to circumstances, without any appeal to the superior Courts of stand as high as ever it did.—(Loud cheers.) Your only
Law. B,r, I should have be en ready to discuss all these points difficulty is an unwillingness to deal with interests which are
had they been fairly brought forward, when the Bill was under opposed to measures useful for the future welfare of the coun-
discussion, instead of lotieging them forward now as a poisoned try.—(Cheers.) If you can deal with these interests with
garb.—(Loud cheers.) Without going into other questions due care, giving them every consideration due to their
which have been introduced into the debate, I will now come to long establishment, and taking upon you the alteration of the
the last clause of the accusation against us, of having last the law, proceeding on sound principles, and determining to go on
confidence of the House, viz. the Budget. Denying that the in the application of those sound principles—Cheers)—then
resolution of the Right Hon. Baronet is at all in the spirit of I say, if you do that, if the Parliament and Government of
the Constitution— denyinee that it could ever be generally ap- the country can do that. then there will be no difficulty what-
plied without great mischief—there still remains to the Mi- ever in carrying on the Administration.—(Cheers )if you
sisters the alternative of resigning their offices, or to advise the do not do that, if you will undertake to protract vicious legis-
Crown to appeal to the country at large for a decision upon the lation, to consider the interests of particular classes rather than
points in dispute. Now, Sir, with respect to the Budget, nor the well-being of the whole, then, indeed, you may enter upon
intendiog upon the present occasion to relate to free trade further a protracted struggle against measures founded in sound policy,
than the questions carry me, I must say that I consider the most and which are certain ultimately to triumph.—( Loud cheers. )
itnpertant question involved in the proposal of my Right Hon. Sir R. PEEL—Sir, A great deal of the speech of the Noble
Friend is really the question, whether by a change in the diffe- Lord was occupied by information kindly conveyed to me as to
rential duties on sugar and timber—whether' by diminishihg measures which I should discover to have passed, in case, after
restrictions, and abolishing prohibition, you cannot greatly in- the lapse of almost ten years, I should be called to office, and
crease the fund at the disposal of the Treasury, and, at the I have not the least doubt, if there should be in the House at
same time, save any new taxation.—(Loud cheers.) The Right present, as there was some time since, some eminent stranger
Hon. Baronet said he would take a calm review of all the air- to whom the speech of the Noble Lord could be translated, and
cumstances of the country, but Ido not think that any person who might be presumed nut to comprehend the Parliamentary
in the House, even without the ability and information of the history of the country, that eminent stranger might suppose
Right Hon. Baronet, can avoid coming to the conclusion that that I-was a person to whom it was necessary for the Noble
there are very few means for making up the present deficiency. Lord to convey information of the measures to which
The one mode is by reducing the navy, diminisbing the army, he had alluded—(Cries of " Hear, hear," and cheers)—that
and other means at the disposal of the Government. Probably I had been excluded for ten years from Parliamentary ex-
the state of Europe may in some short period justify the Go- perience, and had taken no part whatever in those measures.
vernment of the country in making some reduction, but Ido —(Cheers.) I can assure the Noble Lord that such re-
rot think that any Minister could undertake to say that a mil- miniscences are unnecessary. With many of these measures I
lion could be saved in those establishments. Another mode am :ally conversant-_I think I know something of the con-
is by going on contineally from Year to sear to hor- solidation and amendment of the criminal law.—(Cheers.) It
row money, thereby, in fact, only increasing our bur- is true I did not appoint a well paid Commission—(Loud
Glens, and at the same time greatly diminishing the credit cheers)—to sit for years. I effected those improvements with
of the country—that, therefore, is a resource which •is shut no other aid than the ordinary official assistance—( Cheers)—
against any Minister. Then there remains only one mode, and after the testimony I heard borne to their utility from that
that is the proposal now made by my Right Hon. Friend, a side of tlis House, I think it hardly necessary for the mode which has never been disputed—a mode by which we Noble Lord now to claim exclusive credit for them, and to re-
may he enabled to make the revenue very considerably larger. mind me that such things were done.—(Cheers.) Then with
One other mode alone remainseto leave on the old resttice respect to Dissenters' marriages. During the short period I
tions the differential duties on sugar and on timber, and to was permitted to hold office in 1835 one measure which 1 in-
leave the Corn-laws as they now stand— to leave the entire troduced was a measure for the removal of grievances of which
question as it now stands before the country, and to impose the Dissenters complained, both in respect to marriage and
new taxes, or increase the old nnes, or both.—(Cheers.) baptism—(Cheers)—and upon my statement of that measure
That is the only alternative left, and it is au alternative which on the part of the Government I well remember that to the
presses grievously on the people in two ways. It leaves on principle of that measure, to the spirit in which it was con-
them the existing burdens on sugar, to the growers of tha' eeiyed, ample testimony was borne by those who now inform
article, and continues the burdens on the people in respect of me of these matters before unknown to me.—(Cheers. )
colonial timber, and in fact a double burden upon them, for With respect to the English Tithe Commutation Act. I think
the new tax would have.to be paid in addition to that which I should know something; for though it is true that the Noble
now exists.—(Cheers.) It is to such a recourse as this that Lord did, efter the lapse of three years, introduce the compul-
iho e who will not adopt our plans must come ; and, it appears sort' clause—an important alteration, no doubt—but yet with
to me to be a question of such vast importance, that we would .hat exception the whole of the Bill of the Noble Lord was
not he justified in bringing it before the country, connected as copied from m;pe. Again, with respect to the Irish Tithe
it is with the Administration of the country, without consider- Commutation Act, all that I know is, that after a laese of three
ing it, not merely as a question of legislation, but as one of vital years—after much confusion, and disorder, and broodshid in
importance to the Government.— (Cheers. ) But then the Ireland—(Hear)—and I was not responsible for that—after
question arose that being a proposal so deeply affecting the in- three years the measure which I had introduced in 1835 was
terests of the people, and opposed as it naturally would be, but tardily and reluctantly assented to by the present Govern-
opposed as we certainly did not expect it would be by the coin- ment. The Noble Lord says, "Do not feel too confident as
bination of a great tarty with the monopolists, the question to the permanency of that settlement."—(Cries of " Hear.")
arose whether we were upon the first opposition to resign out Oh, no ; I feel no such confidence.—(Loud cheers.) I know
offices. That was a question for grave consideration, and I that the Noble Lord has the ,power to disturb it.—(Re-
will not deny that many reasons offered themselves to the Go- newt.. d cheers.) God forbid that the pressure of political ne-
vernment for taking that course. .But powerful reasons as af- cessity should ever induce the Noble Lord to disturb that
fectin,g the interests of the people, as effecting the great grin- settlement.—(Cheers.) But I shall feel much greater cnn-
ciples which we have put forward, the reasons for not offering fidence in its permanence, if I could be vsured that no such
our resignation seemed to me by far the stronger. It necessity would occur than if the necessity did occur that it
we had offered that resignation, would it not have been said would not be yielded to.—(Cheers.) With respect to the
that es e proposed those measures, not with the intention of Irish Poor-law Act, do I not recollect the bitter and en-
standing by them, but were ready to give them up at the first eel-lensed opposition to that law which the Noble Lord met
opposition offered to them? and should we not, in fact as well as with from those who were the chief supporters of his Govern-
in feeline, have seriously injured the very measures which we ment? And do I not know that with respect to
thought beneficial and necessary to the peace of the country? Oleo measure, or the half-measure to which the
Why, Sir, so long as there was a chance, so long as it was Noble Lord thought it necessary to recal my at-
possible that by continuing in propounding those measures and 'ention —do I not know that without my aid the
holding ourselves responsible for the consequences, so long as Noble Lord could not command the necessary majority:
we had a prespect of carrying those measures, and thus ten- With respect to the .Enelish Poor-law Bill, does the Noble
dering an essential benefit to the country, we felt ourselves Lord really think it necessary to inform me, as if I had been
justified in undertaking the risk and responsibility. Sir, I think banished from the House, that the Poor-law Bill had been un-
the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Pembroke has re- der our consideration ? Again, on the Jamaica Bill, the No-
ferred to the opinions of a great man with due authority. ble Lord says tier I have no right whatever to taunt the Go-
When the Whig party was in a state of discomfiture, and al. vernment upon that Bill. I am not particularly conscious
most despondency, Mr. Fox said if he had any hope to pre- that in introducing the present resolution I did offer any taunt
rail aeain in the great cause of civil and religious liberty, he to the Noble Lord. I said that the Noble Lord had been
would not desert that cause.—(llear, and cheers.) We, who compelled to adopt the suggestions which I offered with re-
no doubt are the followers of the principles of Mr. sheet to :the Jamaica Bill. The Noble Lord says that those
Fox, cannot pretend to his eloquence or abilities, oetegestiOns were .slight and unimportant. And why ?
but with regard is the nature and importance of the Measures Because 'he says there was no difference in prin.
themselves, as they affect the future welfare of the country, ciple' betweon us, • inasmuch as I said that if the
I believe we cannot exaggerate their ienpertance.—(Cheers. ) Legislative; Assembly continued refractory, the time might
There was another course which we Might have followed. it , come ashen I would consent to a measure similar to that of the
is the course so alluded to by the Noble Lord, who seemed to Noble Lord. But then, if the difference between us were
say that we held it out as a threat ; but which, so far from unimportant, how did it happen that the Noble Lord, on the
alluding to as a threat, we were accused, in a former part of rejection of his motion, resigned office?—(Hear, hear.) Anti
the. debate, of being so ambiguous us not to be understood: yet the Noble Lord seeks refuge in the authority of the Mike
I allude to- an weal to the eoeSkeeesteboilv of the country:' 'ett- Wellington, from the deliberate-sets and expressions of him-
The Noble Lord quoted a passage of the reiuke given to Mr. se f and his Cabinet ! In the course of this Session of Parlia-
Canning by Loud Grey and Lord Lansdowne when ment, the Noble Lord was compelled by a sense of duty and
he littered that threat. Did we utter any threat, necessity to admit that it was well our counsels had prevailed,
or attempt to influence the House by any threat ? that our predictions had been verified, and that there had been
Sir, we never uttered any threal on the subject. 'There have no necessity for sacrificing popular Government in Jamaica,
been threats used, but they were used by the Right Hon. and to set an example for its forfeiture in every other colony
13aroret the member
,fur Pembroke, who threatened my which had liberated the negroes. The Noble Lord, instead
Noble Friend and my Hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln- of disturbing the peace of society throughout our West Indian
shire with the consequence of their votes.—(Loud cheers.) 1 colonies, and shaking their confidence in a representative form
need not say that I trust these threats will have no influence of Government, in consequence of differences which he now
on the condect of my Noble and Hon. Friend—( Laughter says were unimportant, but which were important enough to
from the Ppeosition beaches)—but I think that my Noble justify his abdication of his trust! was compelled to admit that
Friends the Members for Ltneolnshire stand on far better by taking our advice he has secured the object to which lie
ground witn respect to their constituents than those who come had looked, and had prevented the confusion and the disturb-
forward to supplant them, on the ground that they have at- ance which would have followed to the abhorence of his own
taehetl themselves to the Right Hon. Baronet. What did my principles. For my part, I recollect not only the measures
Noble Friend say at Lincoln and in this House? He said which have been passed, but also the danger that had been
" these measures were brought,: forward by Minis- averted through our interference—danger which without our
ters whom I support —my opposition may lead to assistance he would not have had the power to overcome. What.
't dissolution I care not for that ; I will give would have become without us of the question of the Ballot
them no support whatever, because I consider my princi- —(Hear, hear,) What would have become of the New Re-
pal object in legislating, as 'regards the Corn-laws, is an form Bill ?—( Cheers.) Would the Noble Lord by the strengths
adherence to the existing law." Now a man might adhere to of his own: hands have been able to prevent, in the midst
those principles, and yet not desert • his other principles.— of:the storm, the raising of the anchors by which the British
But what are the principles of the Hon. Gentlemen who Monarchy was moored ?—(Loud cheers.) What would have
are to succeed them? They have mo ground but that they are become of many of the prerogatives of . the Crown if it had not
hostile to the present Government, and will support the Right been for our intervention ? Why, have I not seen the Noble
Hon Baronet. Support him for what? Not on the great ques- Lord abandoned; by, those who will give him their support
tions on which he differs from ui. For the present Corn-laws? this night ? Have I not seen them not only acting in
By no means ; .but for that wondrous and inimitable direct opposition to him—but have I not seen him
principle of the sliding scale, which, as my Hon. sit almost alone while some of the meat important pseroga-
Friend most truly said, may be no protection at fives of the Crown were under consideration, with seemly ten
all, or may be absolute prohibition.—( Cheers and laughter.) of his official colleagues to assist him in their vindication.—
My Hon. Friend the Member for Lambeth has gathered from (Cheers.) I reeeilect, therefore, not only the measures which
the Right Hon. Baronet that he steeds by the present lass.. have been prevented by our opposition—which have been
I did not so untie; stand him, &cause the Bight Hon. Baronet modified at our suggestion—which, when good, have been car-
could not say both last year and the present that he was dime- net exclusively by our aid—but I also recollect the important
doled with the present law without contemplating some changes in the British Constitution, returning once a 3ear,
change, and Ido net think a great question of this sort ought which the Noble Lord used to deprecate. I recollect all these
to be disturbed fur the sake of a trifling alteration. Sir, I things, and I know it has been by the'aid of the Conservative
believe that if the Right Hon. Baronet had the power he party, that the Noble Lord has been able to avert the evils
would make a very great alteration.—( Hear, hear.) The which he apprehended. The Noble Lord described the present
Hon. Member for Lambeth and I have to read the oracle, and Government as a' Government successful abroad, possessing the
we read it very differently.—( A laugh.) It is a very confidence of' the Crown, and submitting important measures
obscure anti mysterious one ; but I gather from it - for the consideration of Parliament. But let me ask the Noble
that a gentleman of his long experence and pins . Lord how it happens that with all this glory and these advan-
deuce, intimating that he was not satisfied with the tages, he has not possessed more of the confidence of the House?
present Corn-laws, will, when he has the power, make some The Noble Lord says that I had promised ,to take a calm re-
alterations, still preserving the sliding scale ; but how far he view of certain matters; but not of those matters, surely,
will do so must depend on his discretion.( Much cheers and which I had debated over and over again in this House.—
laughter.) My Noble Friend, the Member for Lincolnshire, (liters.) Among other differences which I should find from
has. been menaced and threatened with the vengeance of his the time; when •Ie left the: administration of affairs, If should
constituents ; but let them have two men whose only object find this :-.-I left a surplus of two millions after administration
was to support the Right Hon. Baronet, theyewotild say, of three years, during which the public debt had been re-
" . Never mind the Corn-laws—let the seals slide down as low duced-twenty millions by the Administration of which 1 was a '
as it may, being proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet, who member, while the interest of the debt had been reduced one
has our confidence, and his object must be to secure the welfare million per annnm. Among other changes I should find a de-
of the agricultural classes."—( Hear and laughter.) Sir, I ficiency of • eight millions on an administration of five
say, then, the great question we had to consider was beween years.— (Loud • cheers.) True ' I should find reform,
resignation and an appeal to the constituency of the country. true I should find - the Poor-laws, true I should find ,
In a question of such importance, it is our bounden-duty to the Jamaica Constitution preserved—(Cheers)—true I
offer such advice to her Majesty as will procure the decision of should find that I had introduced into a certain Canada Bill—
the representative duly consulted on this occasion. I may be into the preamble—au amendment, which the Noble Lord
told that this resolutiva is intended as a bar to the exercise of. at the time told me 'would be fatal to the Bill and to the Go-
thic prerogative. I cannot deny, though in appearance it may vernment- (Cheers) which Government, although such
be, that it is so. I cannot agree with, the Noble Lord who amendment was introduced, still occupies office.—(Loud
spoke last, that they had no right to interfere with the preen- cheers.) • True, I should find all these changes ; but my satis-
gaeive in the matter of a dissolutiore, I do think that it is a faction in finding them ivould be much abated when I found in
matter in which ihe House has a rieL..4.i sometimes to interfere ; the midst of all these successes—when I came to consider the
but the, only ground en which it can he properly interfered state of the finances, that in five or six years of administration
with is, when the House can say that the course of legislation there had been a deficiency of 7,600,000/.—(Lond cheers)—
and the wishes of the people are proceeding harmoniously; and it was with reference to the means of supplying that de- 1
and with respect to legislation, if this House :is not dB- ficiency when I expressed my doubts as to your whole system.'
solved, it will be beneficial to the interest of the people. of finance, . when I had declined all your proposi--
Then it is that interference is admissible. Such Cons, that you came forward with the demand the at
was the ground taken by 14.1 r. Fox in 1784. He said I should come forward and state what measures I would pr o -
t
hat the House of Commons was fully able to undertake the pose—(Cheers)—and I said that I would propose nothing, halt
question relative to India, which ro new House of Commons that if I were to take office I would certainly consider the
was competent to do. It was on that ground we proceeded causes of the deficiency, with a view of devising some method.
when in 1835 we moved a vote of censure on the Right Hon. of making it good. You have at your command all the
Baronet for advising the Crown to dissolve Parliament. But sources of official information; you can command the assist-
is that the case with the present Parliament ? I haYe listened ance of all those holding public situations; you have every-
to this debate, and I have heard, neither from the Right Hon. means at your command of knowing the causes which led to
Baronet, nor any other person of authority, an assertion that it that deficiency; and then you tell me, without any of those
was liiiely, if no dissolution of the present Parlihment took official sources of information, that it is my duty to suf,gest to
place—it was likely that if it was extended to a longer period, you the means of supplying that deficiency.—( Loud adieers. )
or even to the full period of six years, that it would be at- I now come to the constitutional objections which hive been
tended with benefit to the country and improvement to the made to this resolution, and I must say it has been impossible
legislation. With respect to legislation, and with respect to to discern an objection to the resolution on congitutional
the particular question now at issue—the question of the grounds, without deserting every principle for which
Budget—various decisions were come to. That was a ques- Whigs have hitherto contended.—(Loud cheers.) The
tion of great importance, and one that would hardly Right Honourable the Secretary at War says that the resolution
be brought to a final issue without applying at one time or is merely an abstract proposition, that it merely lays down a
other to the sense of the country. With regard to legislation, dry principle of constitutional law. Does the Right Hon.
cannot be of long
such are the divisioes of entry. `t
this House, that it is not Gentleman really believe that any man will construe that reso-
likely if we surrender the reins of office to the Right Hon. lution, without reference to the circumstances under which it
Baronet, he will find himself able to continue the adminis- has been brought forward. Do I really propose by that reso-
tration of affairs with the present House of Commons.—( Mi. lotion to lay it down as a proposition that every Ministry which
nisterial cheers.) I think that the Right Hon. Baronet and finds itself in a minority on an important legislative measure,
will, as well as every ought to resign ? Do I contend for that principle ?--( Cheers. )
ms of disorder in this Do I say that if a Ministry, an the first formation of a Go-
in 183,5„—(Cheers.) Do I say that any Ministry, finding
duration, vernment, finds itself obstructed in its legislative course be a
person otit rt
withoutiesres awo
rusheetons
(1:
lefhe
haadvpote.poherasat,l spokentfithone find that
1 pt
ti
hami
err; i
ti thispeople,atmhee
Parliament
mbianptteoo,
?—(Cheers. -0' f
the men in whom they place confidence,
order taonystmewiremehto arey powerful opposition, it is bound to resign
If such, then, course I should not so condemn myself, and the example I set
is ten ease-if we cannot produce
avoiding a dissolution, and if we cannot produce itself in a minority, is bound to resign by this resolution?' No!
any effect by resignation, but the apparent effect of abandon- —(Cheers.) No Government would be bound by it ; and if r
ingthose measures which we have proposed, and deserting those were in power, you might taunt me as much as you pleased.
friends who have supported us—which Lord Melbourne de- with this resolution, I should not hold myself bound to resign.
Glared
--(L
ared world be the imputation which he would least of all on a single defeat.--(Loud cheers and laughter from the Ali
perhaps of throwing for some nisterial bencinp. ) The resolution must be considered in eon-
years ekaer
st or
ohaevoemceast
impedimentsuponhnn—ad
in him--and
we, of those measures of Le- nection with the circumstances of the present case. hy did
gislatiog by which they thought they were likely to secure the you resign on the Jamaica question ? I maintain that` the duty
welfare of the country. If then, such would be the case, is it of resignation must, in every instance, be determined by the
not sufficient to justify the course
,we • are now pursuin—to peculiar circumstances of the case. The Noble Lord recollects
justify us in not taking the course wnich the Right Hon. Gen- the Jamaica case. In that case the Ministry were not de-
tleman says is ncumbent on us—a course which Ido not think is fe
just, either to our principles or to our measures.—Cheers.)res.—Cheers.) thaattedvrctioiryYwere in a majority of five, but they considered:
indicative of a want of confidence in the House, and:
We will leave this whole question to the judgment of the they resigned. Since that has the Government had a larger.
country to decide as they think fit. With regard-to the resolu- measure of the confidence of the House of Commons?*
Bight Hon. Gentleman, as a general On that occasion the Ministry took upon themselves to deter-.
rteiosonluptrioopnoseadtt.
aside the mine what, under the circumstances of the case, should be.,
merits or demerits of the Administration, I • think it is considered sufficient to induce them to resign office. Are they
affecting the the Constitution, putting
not right to found a precedent, above all it is not to deprive the House of Commons of deciding on other eircum-
suited to the present state of Government—(Hear. ) stances which may be sufficient to induce them to withdraw Ido not think that was the ground of the. dissolution, and I their confidence? Now, I have the admission of the Right:
think it was an unfair charge to bring against his opponents. Hon. Gentleman that he brings forward the question of am But the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire had Corn-laws without even the expectation of carrying it.

,1

mind upon this subject, whether the c took the
other night en the motion for the Meat i 4 Chartist
prisoners, was not enough to satisfy him Lir r hieyetipinion es,
on the subject? Can it be one of the grounds for his with- `sheAL
holding his confidence from me that he doubts, although I
have declared my opinion on the ballot and the franchise—can
he really doubt that I have some secret understanding with
.riat numerous
importance. that
the Chartists ? Then, Sir, with respect to the questions
which
thha;
ye
reallyen put
aloe me, they tah emy a
n haveef
been
•
so
very g
One Gentleman geti up and says that I-withhold the expres-
sion of my opinions on the subjects of discussion—that I have
preserved a great latitude. Why, I think my political prin-
ciples are pretty well known.—(Cheers.) Take the
0,-.-
laws, for instance. I should like to know who has come for-
ward more than I have done in defence of the existing hese
should like to knosv whether any man, looking to these de-
bates, can have a doubt as to my,desire to maintain a just and
adequate protection of the interests involved. The fact is,
you are so disappointed at the course I have taken that
you want me to pursue the course which you do.
—( Hear, hear.) You want me to call a meeting, and
move some resolutions respecting the adjustment of this ques-
tion. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Handley) says I owe him
some gratitude for his vote on sugar duties. The Hon. Gen-
tleman considers that I am guilty of ingratitude because I
moved a resolution of want of confidence in Ministers, which
places him in a difficult position as to the vote which he should
give on the occasion. The Hun. Gentleman thinks that this
resolution of want of confidence is some trap made specially for
him—some immense pitfall for himself in particular.—
(Cheers.) Why should the Hon. Member demand gratitude
from me ?--gratitude from one Member to another ! One would
suppose that Honourable Gentleman had lapped the milk
of Whiggism horn his earliest days.—( Hear.) I think
the Hon. Gentleman in 1820 voted against the removal of
the Roman Catholic disabilities. With respect to the agri-
cultural and manufacturing interests I do not wish to appear
the partisan of one party more than another; but I men-
tained that both interests are mutually dependent on each
other. Don't I know that if I said I would support the
Corn-laws against a fixed duty and made no reserve, why
such is the manner in which you fasten me down to every
expression—(Lond cheers)—that you would at once turn round
and say that I had incurred some positive obligation of
honour to stand by every detail of the present Corn-laws--that
I had coinnetted myself, not to a graduated duty, but to
every detail of the existing law ?—(Cheers,) 1 know that
would be said, and that I should be held to have committed
myself to every figure and letter in the Bill.—(Cheers.) An
Hon. Gentleman asked me whether I would maintain the pre-
sent protection to agriculture? If I had auswered yea, he
would have held that I had pledged myself to every detail of
the present law. I will not do that. I say I prefer the princi-
ple of a graduated ditty. I think protection to agriculture
is consistent with manufactut ing prosperity.—( Cheers.) Ido
not attribute the present distress of our manufactures to the
protection given to agriculture—(Hear, hear)—but I will not
bind myself against any improvement in the details of the Corn-
lass s. suppose I had entered into these details—and suppeae
I had aftereards altered them materially. suppose I had
altered them in the proportion of 5 to B.—((,teat cheering
and laughter. )-1 should have had great authority for it.—
(Cheers.) Why here is a Gore/mein who had ten months
to consider upon ito less a question than the amount
of the franchise, that came forward with details
immediately preliminary to the introduction ofa Bill ; they alter
the detail ham 5/.. to ssl., and they then think it decent to call
upon me to commit myself as to details.—(Loud cheers. )
Suppose I had given the details, and afterwards, after a discus-
sion in Parliament, for the purpose of conciliating the votes of
three or four apiculture! friends, or four or five at west, 1 had
altered my details. 1 winder what imputations I should be
subjected to. But those " Charter Libertines "—(Laughter
and cheers)—may alter their details at pleasure, to
conciliate the votes of three or four Gentlemen
behind them, and yet throw every sort of imputation
upon me because I confine myself to a declaration
of general principle, and not being in office refused to say what
taxes I would impose, or any thing about a property tae.--.
(Cheers.) Yet, allow me to ask this question, why were not
these three subjects brought forward at an early pericd of the
Session? What pretetice was there for not having mentioned
any one of them in the Queen's Speech ?--e Cheers.) If you
intended at the commencement of the Session to bring tor-
ward the subject of the Corn-laws and the Timber Duties, why
not mention them in the Queen's Speech? Is this the reason!!
that it is contrary to all precedent to refer Of details of mea-
sures until 'you are erepar. d to introduce them ; that it count
only have a tendency to agnate the ',utile, mind, and disturb
the application of capital? If that is your defence,
on what pretence e u you ask me to enter into
details ? ( Loud cheers.) But the Corn-laws form no
part of the Budget, yet the Corn-laws might have
been mentioned in the speech from the '1 hrone. There
was no reason, also, why the timber duties should not have
been so mentioned. Timm is a material difference between
commercial relaxation and the imposition of taxes, but
on all great questions relating to free trade, there
is no reason why they should riot be mentioned
in the speech from the Throne, and public attention
direction to them, It is this that excites suspicion, perhaps
ill-founded auspicion, of your motives. —(Cheers.) There is
an impression that you had two Budgets—one calculated for
fair weather, anß another for foul—(Loud cheers)—and I take
it that it was not until foul weather took place that this Budget
was produced, then, I say, that remove that impression Sou
ought to have announced some of these measure.—( Cheers. )
You describe these measures as involving many important
principles—you declare that those are measures which must
ultimatetly pass—that the Irinciples you avow must ultimately
triumph. Well, then, in justice to these principles, why
did you not urge them at an smiler period ? hat was
your conduct on the suteect of the Import Duties Committee ?
Your measures are founded entirely upon the report ef that
Committee; but was it the Government moved for that Com-
mittee? Was the Government aware even of the intentions
for which it had been moved ?—(ltear. ) (Jr rid any one Ca-
binet Minister attend during its pisbeeedings 2—( Hear, haar.)
Was there any one question ' put by the Committee
asked bf a Cabinet Minister?—(Hear; hear.) And did the
Right lion. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exch, quer take
any part. in its labour ? No, not for eue day.— ( Hear, hear. )
But the report of the Inaihirt DMZ Committee conteind
their prat-tied sitggestiens which the Iseeialatute eas now
called upon to adopt. Surely you mist have been aware
of the presure of your finances last y c sir ; and
yet so little convinced were you of the sounness,
of those principlas which ' you now annul to Its saset.-
tial to the salvation of the coentry, thee you rerniitted that .
Committee to be appointed without kram mg its objects, nd
not a memner of the Government aasistee at its proceedings.
If you thought it desirable to adopt the ineasue a reconnitete ed
by mat Committee, why not have made that anti/series mans
from the Throne.--( ries of " Hear, hear,- and cheers.
But. if von thought further inquiry upon the subject necessary,
not make a motion to that effect. ? You did neither the ohe
nor the other: and it was not until the month of Alay that
you brought forward, at a rime of pressing ro;itical necessity,
those fling, great measures founded upon the cvidencteof the
Import. Duties Conimittse. 1 say that vale manner in which
you have brought forts and these great questions, you have trot
done justice to the questions themselves. Anti 811.a.11 I say,
that it these principles are so necessary for the eatiorial salva-
tion, is it not mitOrtunate that you encumber them with
your help, and create a prejudice against them,' not
of individuals, but on account of your position as
the Executive Government of the country ?—( Hear, hear.)
There is, depend upon ' it, a prevailing feeling that those
measures cannot yeas on account of the manner in which
they had been brought forward—(Hear, hear)—and I must
say now that your object being to remove the commercial
distresses of the country—your object being to restore con-
fidence and find the means of applying capital —I must
say that you are striking the severest blow against the
industry of this country—(Hear, hear, hear)—by having
left those great questions in doubt sor an indefinite period, by
setting party against party on such a :subject as the Corn-
laws—by stirring up society from its foundations, and by com-
mitting against each other, in bitterness and discord, classes
whose harmony is esaei tial to theie mutual welfare.—( Hear,
hear.) You are how about to dissolve Parliament on the cry
of cheap bread.—( Hear, hear.) You are proposing to substitute
a fixed duty for the present Corn-law, my firm belief that a
fixed duty will give no effectual protection to the „agricultural
interests of Ireland, or of many Otis of this country. The
good effects of it are entirely doubtful, and I think it may be
attended with evil. i believe, too, you cannot paralyze agricul-
tural prosperity by a duty of one shilling per bushel on
corn, without seriously affecting the other interests
connected with agriculture.—(Wear, hear.) But my firm
belief is, that the course which you have taken—that the ap-
peal which you have made—that the mode in which you have
conducted that agriculture—that the incitement to agitation
given by your mode of introducing the the subject
my belief that the circumstances will, when the
time comes, make it impossible for you to resist
the application of a similar appeal, and to maintain
that duty which you now state, would be fixed and unalter-
able.—( Cheers. ) That is my firm conviction, and I take my
leave of the discussion of the question, and I place it in the .
hands of the House. content whatever may be the issue with
the course which I have pursued, and which has been
less intended to give any party advantage than to
vindicate the first authority of the House of Commons.—
( Cheers.) Many may think that it would have been much
better to have permitted you to go on with the Corn-laws, and
to undergo three successive defeats—three successive mino-
rities—each decreasing in number—that might have
been the better and more politic course in a party
point of view —I know the advantage which I give you by
bringing forward this motion—l am content you should
.have.
it, because I should be abandoning my duty—(Loud criesau o
" Hear, hear")—if after your determinationa
Gove to
rnmens, eontile in
t
not with-
office, performing the functious of
standing the defeats you have met with, I had acquiesced in
had not called upon
such a course of proceeding, and
by some distinct declaration of opinionsit to affirm or to deny
of the House, and that
that you do not possess the confidenceyour remelt
line in office under such circumstances is at vari-
ance with the spirit 6f the Constitution.—(Loud cheers. )
Strangers were then ordered _
to withdraw, and the House
divided, when there appeared—
For the resolution
3121
Against it...
i
Majority against Ministers
d cheers from the
ou
The announcement was received with
opposition benches.
the House do adjourn to Monday next,
there were loud cries of
On the question that
Co: n, corn," on Which—
. ‘
Li
-an th t
d JOHN RUSSELL a e proposed to go into
Lor
Committee of Supply on Monday next, arid that he then pro-
posed
to go into time Miscellaneous Fstimates for the Purpose
•
of proposing those estimates, the deterring of which might be
detrimental to the public service.—(Criesof "Col n.") He would
s__ot, Monday whet course he intended- to pursue with re-
gard to the Corn-laws.—( Opposition cheers. ) He thought
atright to add that as the ltight Uon. Gentleman, in his
„-ieelad thought it right to bring several fresh charges against
Len he serenader in the. meantime what would be the heat
course to %indicate the Government.—(Cheers.)
Sir R. PEEL said that a great part of the speech of the
Noble Lord had been an attack upon himself. He should be
exceedingly sorry, if it were possible, that tho Noble Lord
could impute to him that he had taken any unfair advantage
to bring- forward any new changes. It had not been his in.
tentitm so take any unfair advantage of the Noble Lord ;
and he had contsequently, in his reply, said not one
word in relation to the foreign policy, or to many other points,
The Noble Lord might pursue any course he thought peeper-
but he had rot certainly intended to take any unfair advantage
of his right to reply to bring forward any *fresh sharges, and
had confined himself to replying to tho chargos which the
Noble Lord had brought against him.—(Cheers.) He took it.
for granted that on Monday the Noble Lord would stata his in-
tention respecting the Corn -laws.
Mr. 111NDLEY did Hot care two-pence about the charge,'
but he was exceedingly anxious that they should have a die.-
cession on the Corn-laws.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped that on
Monday the Noble Lord would tell the House that he was
determined to bring forward the questien.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. III.:31E said he could not understand why the
Noble Lord was not prepared at that time to
state it, and he had had ample time allowed. As
Tuesday was the first ogen day, he thought the Noble Lord
ought to fix that day before he left the House.
The Punishment of Death Bill was read a third time-
The other Orders of the Day were then
_disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Twenty Minutes past Three, till Monday
next..

A

Did that seem as if they had the confidence of the
House of Commons when they brought forward such a question
without the expectation of catrying it, merely to agitate the
question? Why, the Government had said that they had
sustained such defeats, and suffered such humiliations, that
nothing could reconcile them to retaining office hut a para-
mount sense of then- public duty. What had the Noble
Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, said two sears ago? Why,
after suffering innumerable taunts, he had summoned
up energy sufficient to make • the frightful an-
nouncement •that the Government had at length
determined to exist no longer upon sufferance.—( Loud cheers.)
Two years ago the Noble Lord had told us that they had suf-
fered such humiliations that their situation had become intol-
lerable ; but they have suffered several humiliations since—
" Still have they borne them with a patient shrug,
For sufferance is the badge of all their tribe."
(Cheers.) And therefore do not tell me that this resolution
will be referred to as a precedent in case of a single defeat.
Do not tell me that in such a defeat any future Government
would be called upon to resign. Do not tell me that the po-
liticians of future times will take the mere dry bones of this re-
-3 eution without considering the circumstances under which it
is brought forward. No they will look to your admitted series
of defeats, to your own:admissions that your situation has be-
come intollerahle—to your own boastings that you would
no longer he content to exist on sufferance, to your own
measures, your own acts, ;your own confessions.—(Cheers.)
The Noble Lord, at the dose of the debate, argued as if the
Government had had the confidence of the House of Com-
mons, while almost all his colleagues had admitted that the
time bad come when the confidence of the House was
not sufficiently manifested. They had admitted that
the Government was now placed in such a situa-
tion that it had only two alternatives--either resignation,
or dissolution of the present Parliament. Now under what
circumstances did I give notice of this resolution—( Cheers)—
this unconstitutional resolution, the facts of which, and the
inferences drawn from which, are positively denied? But I
got this admission after the discussion of the sugar duties, that
the Government was placed in a situation where they had no
alternative but resignation or dissolution. The doctrine,
therefore, of retaining office after defeats was all at an end.
After the admissions that had been made, I think it cannot be
said that my resolution is so unconstitutional as has been re-
presented. Can any man survey the course of the Government
of this country and not see that the acts of the Legislature
are so interwoven with the acts of the Executive Govern-
ment as to render it impossible to separate them? There
can not be any doubt that the character and vigourOf the
Government do not depend more upon the Executive than
the Administrative Government. As an instance of that I may
refer to the Roman Catholic Relief Bill, the Reform Bill,
the Poor-law Bill and the Repeal of the Corn-laws ; those were
fthe great measures by which the fate of a Ministry was deter-
mined. If the legislative act: administrative Government were
not placed upon an equal footing, the Crown might labour to
place the House of Commons in opposition to the Constitu-
tional body, and lower the House, by inducing it to reject
popular measures. See what is theposition of the House of Com-
mons. The House disapproves of the Government. The
Government says, " We are independent of you upon legisla-
tive measures; that which is your peculiar function we will
disregard ; our conduct shall not be influenced by your rejec-
tion of our measure; nothing but an interference with execu-
tive,
administrative acts shall influence onr destiny." The
House of Commons knowing, then, that the only way in
which: it can influence the fate of a Government is by
an interference with its administration, the House of Com-
mons wall press for the production of dispatches, the produc-
tion of which may be injurious to the public service ; the
House of Commons may question appointments made by the
Crown, knowing that by the exercise of its ordinary legisla-
tive control it cannot interfere with the Government. You
are offering the greatest inducement to it to depart from its
proper sphere and interfere with executive prerogatives.—
The Hon. Member for Lambeth says that history is to con-
stitute no precedent for us, that in consequence of the Reform
Bill we are to disregard the precedents of all feamer times.
—( Hear, hear.) Why, I should have thought that a great
advocate for the Reform Bill might have said, The Re-
formed Parliament has a right to exercise a greater influence
over the Government than an Unreformed Parliament," but
for an Hon. Gentleman to contend that the Government is to
he independent of Parliament, because Parliament is reformed,
is a most unconstitutional doctrine.—( Cheers from the Tory
benches.) But these are the shifts to which you are pushed,
to find a plausible 'objection to the resolution which I have
moved.—(Loud cheers.) You are obliged to abandon every
constitutional principle which you have hitherto maintained, in
order to attempt to show that my resolution is at variance
with the spirit of the Constitution. The Noble. Lord has re-
ferred to Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox in support of his position.
I thought that I had the other -night proved that Mr.
Fcx recognized the principle that the confidence of
of the House of Commons was necessary to the Ministers
of the Crown. The Noble Lord had read a passage to-
reght, which seemed to assert another principle. Out of
the same page I will produce the authority of each of those
great men. (The Hon. Member then read a passage from
Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox, to the effect that the confidence of
the House was necessary to the existence of an Adminis-
tration.) If I have the admission of the Government that
they do not possess the confidence of the House of Commons,
they ought either to resign or to dissolve. If I have got
the affirmative of my first proposition, on what ground do
they reject the second? What were the circumstances under
which I moved this resolution ? On Thursday, the 18th of
May, the Noble Lord was defeated by a majority of 36. He
proposed an adjournment until Tuesday, the 20th of May,
in order that the Government might review their positicn. The
universal impression was that the Government intended
to resign. The Noble Lord had admitted that that was anti-
cipated. The first proposition, therefore, cannot be so very re-
mote. On Thursday, the 20th of May, the Chancellor of the
Exchequer quietly moved that the House should on the Mon-
day following vote the existing sugar duties for the year. That
was the whole of the intimation conveyed to the House. The
question was put to the Noble Lord when he intended to bring
forward the Corn-laws, and the answer was, Friday, the 4th of
June. What reason had Ito infer that the Government me-
ditated a dissolution—what reason had I to suppose on the Sa-
turslay morning that the Noble Lord did not intend to pursue
his usual eourseand to conduct the business of, Parliament in
-the ordinary way ?—( Hear, bear.) I took time to delibera'e
upon the course which I should pursue, and having no reason
to suppose that the Government meditated a dissolution, think-
ing that it 'vas not ding homage to the representative
principle that after this long succession of defeats
they should remain conducting the ordinary ' .busi-
nes; of the country, I then determined to give the
Noble Lord every advantage which a direct, inte;ligent, and
straightforward course could give him ; and on se onday I
gave notice that I would, on the earliest day, move that the
Government had. not the confidence of the House of Com-
mons, and that its continuance in office was at variance with
constitutional principles: and it was after that notice was
given, that we first beard of the intimation of dissolution.—
(Cheers from the Tory benches.) Up to the period that
the notice was given, not a word fell from the Noble Lord,
not only heel he not pledged the Government to dissolution, but
had indicated no intention, on their part, to dissolve; but
after that notice was given,—about ten minutes after,—the
Noble Lord got up and said that the Government did not
mean to bring forward the Poor-law Bill, because Med.bers
would make speeches to recommend themselves to
their constituents. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
Therefore tate Noble Lord has accepted that alternative which
he admits to he inevitable, and if my motion has done nothing
else than this, to force ie Government to the adoption of
that Other alternative, it has pot been absolutely nugatory
because at any rate it has forced an admission from the Go-
vernment that to retain power, conducting business in the ordi-
nary man nor, and within resigning nor dissolving, woulb be
at variance with the spirit of the constitution.—(Cheers.)
I admit that they had no right to dissolve without the Sugar
Bill, but having adopted the alternative, and determined not
to resign but to dissolve, it was their duty to adopt the re-
solutioe at the earliest possible moment.—( Cheers.) It is
inconsistent with all usage and with the spirit of the consti-
tution that the Government should be able to select for the
cousideration of the condemned Parliament, that they should
withdraw vome and select others, and bring forward those
only which were likely to damage Honourable Mem-
bers in the eyes of their cous'ituents. We shall
bring forward such measures :as may serve our purposes
but with regard to those measures which may be considered
essential to the welfare of •the country, we shall exercise our
own discretion. Sir,. I say there is no precedent for such a
course. When Mr. Pitt got the Mutiny Bill,- after some
slight opposition from Mr. Fox, he dissolved the day after.
Lord Grey took the earliest optiortunity of dissolving; but
whether there is any puecedent or not, I say -it is unconstitu-
tional, and contrary to Whig principle to condemn a House of
Commons,. and then exercise its own discretion as to
the measures it would bring forward. Nothing surprises me
more than the desperate fidelity with which the Whig
Alinisters cling to the example of Mr. Pitt. They bring for-
'ward the precedent of 1784 as a justification of all their pro-
ceedings. We had, firstf the Right Hon. the Secretary at
War, then the Right Hon. the President of the Board of
Control, and then the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Co-
lonies, all a exious to plant their olive in the footsteps of Mr.
Pitt. As 'l' rinculo said, " The storm is coming, and there is
no hope of shelter except in creeping.under the garberdine."
The Noble Lord would not then depart from his garberdine,
and the moment he showed his head from under it he uttered
some unconstitutional doctrine.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
But he had vindicated these two propositions, first, that the
Ministers had not the confidence of the House of Commons ;
and, secondly, that in conformity with all constitutiouallpre-
ceelent and principle, Ministers not having the confidence of
th at House, he should relinquish office.—(Cheers.) The
4 issolution should be immediate, and the House of Cont.,
T none has no other mode of declaring its sense of the
' unconstitutional tenure of power than by moving some
such resolution as 1 have proposed. Sir, I complain of the
references that have been made to an individual Member of
Parliament like myself in the course of this debate. I com-
plain of the injustice.of the imputations cast upon me. The
Right Hon. the Vice President of the Board of Trade claimed
perfect freedom of speech, and contended that the maintenance of
courtesy was consistent with the utmost latitude of speech.
The Right Honourable Gentleman said
:he would
review my conduct in 1835, and then he charged me with
doing all in my power to excite religious animosities at the
elections in Ireland in that year. -
Mr. SHIEL-1 said quite the contrary.
Sir R. PEEL—Then, what did you mean by picking out of
this Appendix certain matters, unless you intended to repre-
sent me as an advocate of Orange Lodges ? Why did you
refer to the Appendix at all to show that meetings of so many
took place there, and so many at another, unless you meant to
connect mes with them ? Now, on referring to the date, I find
it is the 12th of November, at which time I was in Genoa.
Now, is it fair to act in this way? Would it not be fair to
look at my own expressed opinions, and the course which I
have taken in order to form an estimate of my character?
The Right Hon. Gentleman ought to have looked at the course
I took when the proposal was made to address the Crown to
discourage Orange Lodges in Ireland. Sir, I say it is
not fair, and Ido not deserve it from those of the faith the
Right Bon. Gentleman belongs to.-(Cheers.) That such h
unjust imputations should be thrown upon me for the purpose
of raising excitement in Ireland, and propagating the. b,:i f
that I would govern that country through party feeling.—
( Cheers.) If I had encouraged religious
L:animosities there I
ees ; yet what
must have engaged the assistance of Orange
proposal teas made to
was my conduct in 18'46,when
I was then
arrest the course and discourage Orangei d
in opposition, and there was no eonipu siionHufohn me to take any
i Friends around
part in discussion. I waseibligedto many
me, who felt deeply on this subject, and yto whom it would have
been pleasing bad I taken no part But what was my conduct
on that occasion? Sir, I did every thing I could for the aban-
donment of those Orange Lodges ; and whatever the Right
Hon. Gentleman may think, I have done more towards that
end, I have given more advice, which I am happy to say was
most Willin g attended to. and having been accepted, has been
most religiously observed. I think it rather hard, thee, that
I should be taunted in the way that I have been on this sub-
ject. (The. Right Hon. Baronet then read a long extract from
the speech made by
him in 1833, on the subject in question, in
order to prove that he then discountenanced all se
cret societies. Then came the Honourable Member for
Lambeth, who supposed that I brought forward this motion, 1,
because I found that the clamour raised respecting the Poor-
law 1
Bill had failed. And then the Hon. Member for Lincoln-
shire
asked my opinion respecting the Charter.—(Cheers and '
la uehter. ) He says I have stated my opinion respecting the
Ballot, that I have stated my opinion respecting the franchise,
but I have not stated it. with respect to the Charter, and that
was one of the reasons why he withheld his confidence ft:ona me.
Now, Sir,l will ask whether there is an honest doubt on his

.NDIAN MAIL.—The Post-office has publish-
ed a notice that Letters for the Marseilles route will be in time
this evening, the sth instant.