The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-13 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 13, 1847.

the :light Hon. Baronet would be laid on the tA
Monday.

Lbli.t on

POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. GREGORY wished to put a question to, the
Noble Lord with respect to a clause which he
(Mr. Gregory) had placed upon the paper with the in-
tention of moving its insertion in the Biil when the
House should go into Committee upon it. The No,i e
Lard had stated that it was his intention to propose that
no holder of land above half an acre should be entitled
to come under-the definition of destitute persons. Now,
he wished to know whether he intended to introduce
such a provision. If he replied in the affirmative,ut
if
is
t
(Mr. Gregory's) motion would fall to the grot.sndh
in the negative, it would be his duty to propose also
wished to know when her Majesty's Government esuld
state their intentions with respect to vagrants in Ireland?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL (who spoke in an unusually
low tone) was understood to say that he had already
stated that he approved of the clause a hich the Hon.
Gentleman intended to propose, but he should prefer
him to make what amendments he might think proper,
and afterwards to bring it under the consideration of
the House at the proper time. He could not state the
exect time when the Government would bring in the
Bill with sespect to vagrants, but he might state that he
certainly should not bring such a measure forward until
the measures so urgently requiry in Ireland had re-
ceived the sanction of the House.
MINT PROSECUTIONS.
Mr. HUME said, seeing the Hon. Gentleman the
Master of the Mint in his place (Mr. Sheil), he wished
to know whether the statement that had gone
abroad was correct, that policemen employed in
Mint cases were paid double the usual pay during
the time they were engaged? Such a statement was
made at a trill which recently took place at the Old
Bailey, and it seemed most extraordinary conduct. He
thought the public should have authentic information on
the subject. He therefore wished to know whether such a
practice existed, and if it did, whether the Hon. Gentle-
man had taken any steps to put a stop to it ?
Mr. SHEIL said, on Friday last he inquired at the
Mint whether such a practice prevailed, and was informed
that the practice had existed for a considerable time,
and had been carried to a much greater extent than at
present. He thought it was a practice likely to lead to
great abuses, and he could assure the Hon. Gentleman
that he should do his best to put a stop to it.—(Hear.)
The subject then dropped.
POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
On the order of the day for going into(;ormnittee upon
the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill being read,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that before the Speaker
left the chair he wished to state generally what had been
the latest proceeding of the Government with respect to
the calamitous state of affairs now existing in Ireland,
and at the same time to call the attention of the House
to one or two of the principal provisions of the Bill
before the House. In the midst of the present afflie:ions
of Ireland he thoueht it was due to the House—;pithdarkness surrounding them and peril before them—to
acquaint it with the steps which they were taking
from time to time, and those measures which
might have at a future period a serious influence on the
destinies both of this country and of Ireland. The House
was acquainted both with the wept; which had been taken
before the commencement of the session, and the conti-
nued refusal which the Government had given to enter-
tain some other measures of large import to which their
attention had been repeatedly called. Thus, the Govern-
ment agreed, with respect to the supply of provisions,
that there should be the amount of 10,000 tons always in
store in various depots in those parts f Ireland where
there were no regular markets established, but it declined
to undertake the P..eding of the people of Ireland by the
importati,)n of provisions. They likewise consented that
a sum of not more than 50,0001. should be lei I out for seed,
thinking that seed might be more re_idily purchased hy
the Government than by individuals. But they had
stead iy refused to undertake the cultivation—the
ploughing and sowing of the land in Irclan !.—(lfeer.)
Thus, also, they had augmented to a very email di gcee
the sum es hick was applica for the removal of
emigrsiap in a destitute condition, from Quebec
_to
Montreal and other places, where their labour vii: ht
be more in demand. But they had refused to he-
come responsible fur the conduct and promotion of
emigration in general from this country.—(Uttar,)
The reasons why the (du'iernnrent had thus acted
as laws s : —ln the first place, they thought the
quantity of corn and provirions of all kinds would
be greater if the trade was not interfered with,
than if they by any act of theirs interfErA with the
purchase of supplies, and, in the second place day by day,
they had been confirmed that in so doing they had acted
right. They were also of opinion that the cultivation
of the land would have been impeded instead of forwarded
had they undertaken, as they had been desired to do,
the eraplopnent of the pople upon the land. They
were likewise of opinion that the number of emigrants
to the United Stares and the colonies would not have
been considerably increased if the Govern.
ment had pr: ,posed any large grant of
money for that purpose, instead of leaving
emigrants to depend on their own resources, or on what
was furnished them by their friends or their landlords.
On these topics he would do tie more than state what
the epiniuns of the Government had been. With regard
to another question, it has been thought that the Go-
vernment had unduly interfered with the employment
of the people, devoting large sums of money fur the em-
ployment of the destitute people of Ireland. This was
undoubtedly true. For this purpose the a'lvsnces had
been very great ; and he would now state what the
amount had been, up to the end of February, expended
on relief

September (1846)
November
Decemer
January (1847) ..
February
This expenditure was entirsly independent of that
which had been expended by the commissariat and other
public departments. lie would DON give the numbers
employed during the last month, iu which the increase
had been very great : Men.
The week ending Feb. 6 615,051
91 7, 13 605,715
// 79 ‘,O 663,749
27 703,228
On looking back at the proceedings he was firmly per-
suaded that unless a very large outlay money had
been made from the national treasury, many of those
who were now employed would have died from
the want of the means of subsistence.— (Hear.)
lle thoeght this very large outlay was justified,' and was
to be justified by the great emergency of the case. It
was undertak, n to prevent an increase in the number of
persons who had died in Ireland from want of food.
But while during the months of November, December,
January, February, end, indeed, part of March, they
had continued these works on that great scale, they
had. never been insensible to the evils which
were tan ndant upon these works, and it was
to be expected the evils would increase as
the works were en!srged. In the first place,
the immense increase in the number and crowds of
workuirn, an increase which ranged from 30,000 to
40,000 at the commencement to 708,228, had made it al
most impassible for the Board of Works, however it had
exerted itself, or did exert itself, to keep that due order
and regularity which ought to be observed on the public
works. Let him say, lresever, at the sense time, that
the degree to ..shich order and regularity had b,-en ob
served, was not only a matter of praise, but of great as -
tonishment. It had been done, in the first place, by the
exertions of the officers -of the Board of Works
themselves, and in the next place by the exertions of the
military and officers who were placed under the con-
stabulary of the Board of Werks, and lastly by the
exertions of the Executive Government, and the mili-
tary are] constabulary at their disposal. The conse-
quence had been that, although it would have
been impossible to see a bother a due quan-
tity of work was performed by each individual,
there had not been any general confusion in
the work', or the regularity of the payments. Still
there had been, and it was' to be expected there would
be, something dishonest and speculative on the part
of those clerks who were engaged in superintending
and paying the men engaged on the works.
But part of the irregularity arising in the performance
of the works was to be attributed to tha inability of
some of the persons employed to perform the work
assigned to them, its consequence of the want of that
sustenance vt hich was requisite to enable them to
perform that amount of work which was necessary to
enable them to procure a sufficient sum of money for the
purchase of food; and thus their overseers and the
other persons over them naturally felt unwilling to
oblige them to perform tasks to which they
ware unequ-al, or to give them a sum issufli-
eient to meet those dismands for food. They
had, therefore, reduced the amount of the task•work,
and consequently the amount of work performed was
not to be considered an equivalent for the wages given,
but rather an amount equivalent to that which they were
enabled to perform. This had led to irregularity, be-
cause while some were altogether unable to perform the
task assigned, and it was impossible to make them do so,
others, who were able and strong, and capable of per-
forming those tacks, had taken advantage of this state of
things, to come at late hours of the morning, at ten and
eleven, and as late as twelve o'clock, and said that as
they were performing task-work they were nut obliged
to attend at regular periods. But a further evil was
the consequence of these irregularities, at this par-
ticular season, as [they would learn from the report
of the Board of Works for last month. (The Noble Lord
then read a quotation from the report, to show that as
this system of task-work had been introduced on the
pubic
c works, the labourers earning is. 6d. a day were
• to attend to the cultivation of the soil,
and the q
rate of waeesconsee - slice had been that a higher
s, sad been induced ) In consequence of
this report, ,ratedcorrob as it had. been by a great num-
her of representations from individual officers employed
in various parts of thse
n„.tits of the „nami,saututry, and in different depart-
ra the Board of Works ;
nti in consequence es
(i o vet-nine:A determined riepresentations, the
that
to reduN_,, as far as. possible, t, was neeessa
and oawinit,hAtioutl!Petakoef
Ow year—when plcus,lnng
lace to menace for the Coming esup.
1") •s— they were deter-
Whit d, its far as pos,ihle, to reduce the ratulher cm threw
W0E.1,4, siel en these grounls his JA,1i7197 T
public
h seen.
Friend the S- cretary of State t'oy the Ilowe Departtnent
hail
eolfre those
l
virttten a letter to the Lorit-Ltii,;(iitt;irusamnbr
t of
advising than as far as pessl6lo,
I,beurr‘rs should b.s diminished, and thet no
fertfivr pmsontuierif.s should be made unless upon
special grounds gr)unds upon which he should
be required to make a rc-pert to rho Secretary of
State for Ireland. The Treasury had, likewise directed
that notice should be givers that from Saturday, the 20th
March, the number of persons employed on the public
works should be reduced in the proportion of 20 per coat.
The last Treasury minute gave instructions to the of er-
seers to take off from the public works those persons
who 'might receive any rations of soup or other food. It
v,as hoped, therefore, that when all those arrangements

we re complete that the number of men employed
en the relief works would be considerably
reduced. He did not then intend to take
notice of the other measures then before the House
with respect to Ireland, because, although they were
great in their extent, they were not to be compen d
with that measure to which he had alluded,
so totally unexampled in its nature, and so appalling
in its magnitude.—([fear.) To the other measures
he would feel it his duty to call the attention of the
House at a future period. He proposed now to
call the attention of the House to the proper
business of that evening, and before he did so, Le
thought it right to say something with respect
to a representation which had been made to him
a few days since. A memorial had been presented
to him, signed by 64 Peers and 40 Members of that
House, upon the subject of the Government measures.
He thought it would be respectful to the parties whose
signatures were attached to that memorial, that
he should notice the representations before he
proceeded to the measure itself.—(Hear, hear.)
The sixty-four Peers and the forty Members of that
House formed a list of persons well acquainted with
Irelam' ; many of them had been long residents in that
country, and they all had considerable know-
ledge both of this country and of Ireland ; but he
confessed he could not agree to the resolutions which
they had adopt :d—resolutions which would pre-
clude that House from entertaining -at all the
question of out-door relief.—(Loud cheers.) Their
third resolution was in the following words:
r° Resolved, that the principle of giving out-doer
relief to the able bodied labourers of Ireland,
has be en condemned by Parliamentary Committees and
Government Commissions, as well as by public officers
appointed to consider the subject—that the experience
of the last twelve months, during which time several
have received out-door relief, although accompanied by
the relief ordinarily afforded to agricultural labourers,
demonstrates conclusively that the system of out-deor
relief will produce the most fatal and lamentable conse-
quences." Now, with regard to the first portion of that
statement, he had nothing to say, as he did nest
wish to go into any examination of the report of
the Committees and of Commissioners, but with
regard to the other he had two observations
to make. He did not think that the relief given during
the last twelve months, accompanied with labour, at till
conclusively proved that, out door relief had
proved injurious, however serious the expense
might have been.—(Hear, hear.) He thought,
however, that the system which they had
been compelled to carry out, could not fail to be attended
with abuse ; but that observation could not with any
truth apply to the plan of the poor-law for rating the
land in Ireland. The House could not have failed to
have seen the great readiness with which advances had
been made from the Treasury for the purpose of carrying
on public works, and the great readiness which hid
been shown in recommending the employment of per
sons upon these works—(Hear)—but the advances thus
made for the relief of the distress were not considered
to be made on the understanding that they were to he
immediately repaid by the rate payers of Ireland ; they
were to be ha ked upon as sums advanced from the
public treasury. Amongst the reports which he had read there were
several which stated that the relief committees put upon the relief
works many of those who were best able to sustain themselves.
That overseers were appointed who were themselves farmers,
and possessed of land to a considerable extent. But it was
obvious tient if they imposed a poor-rate, and that the desti-
tute were to be supported out of it, that thew, it would be the
1 interest of every ratepayer and every guardian to see that none
but the de-titute were supported out of that fund. For that
reason he thought that the experience of last session was any-
! thing but coneusive. In the next place, there was nothing in
the plan proposed which made it probable that gratuitous re-
! lief would be afforded. He should hold it, that the boards of
guardians and the poor-law commissioners would have the same
! power as they possessed in England of making regulations for
the employment of those who received se lief.
, When an able-bodied labourer in England ap-
, plied for relief, he bad some work given to him,
i to perform as a test of his destitution, and that work enabled
the guardians to limit the demand of relief giien very much.
They did not intend to introduce any other system into Ire-
land. But there was another question to which he should
refer back. He had the honour of conversing with the depu-
tation of peers and gentlemen, when they presented these reso-
lutions, and he stated to them that it was quite true that very
great abuses did exist in the English poor-law system, and
that even at the present moment the system was not without
its abuses. But his answer was, that they had seen a aa.t
number of people in a deep state of destitution, and they had
been told by men most conversant with the state of Ireland,
that although the destitution had been greatly aggravated by
the failure of the potato crop, yet famine was not a circum-
stance of rare occurrence, nay, that it was an annual visitant. i
What was then to become of the destitute poor, if they were
not to be provided for by out-door relief, when the workhouse
was full ? When they objected to his plan in the House of
Commons, what other plan did they propose instead of it ? -
( Hear, hear.) And to the question, which seemed really not
to be expected—(Laughter)—he got an answer from one
member of the deputation, tr.at private charity in Ireland was
such, and so extensive, that it was not likely that any person
would be allowed to starve. And another member of that de-
' putation immediately observed, that he did not think that,
with regard to any change which bad taken place, with regard
to the cultivation of the potatoe, that the same extension of
private charity would be hereafter required. He fully agreed
with the lest member of the deputation. He fully admitted
that there had been immense extent of private charity in Ire-
land,
but it had been frr.m the poor to the very poor.—( Hear,
hear.) It had been charity from the small farmer to the
de,titute labourer—of the faimer and resident gentry generally
to the mendicant, and those who asked their alms until the
passing of the Poor-law Act for Ireland—which he had the
I honour to introduce, and which he now proposed to extend.
1 He did not believe that there was any burden whatever on the
large proprietor who did not choose to contribute to private cha
rity— there was no demand whatever on the great absentee pro-
! prietor who did not see those miserable objects about him. There
• was no demand or burden whatever on him if he did not
choose, and he might avoid altogether—he would not say ob-
ligation, but any payment of the kind. Well, then, if this
were the case, he asked that question again. Seeing that hi-
therto the destitute in Ireland who had not been supported in
the workhouse had been supported by the voluntary charity of
the classes resident in Ireland, and chiefly by the poorer
classes, the farmers had contributed a portion of their po-
-1 t tatoes or meal, whatever it might be, to the support of the
mendicant who called at his house, he asked, when the cul-
tivatien of the potato would be greatly diminished, 5..) as to
alter the social state of the country altogether—he asked, to
whom were the destitute poor of Ireland to look for support?—
( Hear, hear.) He must say, that this deputation at
once rejected the notion that they could come on
another occasion to the Imperial Exchequer, and ask for
further leans, advances, or grants. lee must do them
1 the justice to say, that not one of them expected that
such would be the case, but he must say that the economical
question still remained. What were they to expect, or how
were they to expect, these persons to be provided for ? He
really knew no way in which that could be done unless they
had resort to the measure which was then before the House.
Guarded with all the force and seconded by all the fences the
House might think requisite. He still said, that if a person
was starving, and had no resources, " let him be relieved in the
workhouse, if their is room in the workhouse, and let him be
relieved out of the workhouse if that workhouse is so full as to
be unable to relieve him inside."—(Cheers.) In making that
proposition to the House, he thought he could place it on very
fair grounds. He would state in the first place, that no one
i could accuse Parliament with having acted niggardly in Ire-
land's extremity. I\o one, whether he looked at the contribu-
tions made from the collected taxes of the country compulsorily
raised from the people of Great Britain, or the collection
of voluntary gifts, whether they considered the millions pro-
posed to be voted, or the hundreds of thousands of pounds col-
lected from private sources—whether they viewed the one or
the ether, no one could accuse the people of Great Britain with
want of generosity or liberality. He was justified in saying
this, hot he would hardly have stated it, hal there not been re•
peated charges made—not against the Government, for they
were a fair target to attack—but against Parliament and the
people of Great Britain, who, he must say, deserved no such
treatment.—( Loud cheers.) He thought that in the next
place he should state, that what the Government proposed to do
as a permanent law for Ireland, was a course which they in
England thought to be consistent with their wealth, consistent
with their sense of security, and consistent with the regard due
to the rights of property.—( Hear, hear.) They in England had
for a long time had a poor-law not only for the sick and the
infirm, but also provided that the able-bodied should be set to
work, and so doing, should receive relief; and lest it might be
said that the abuses of the poor-law were continually com-
plained of, he might state that a reform had been made, and
though many thought that this reform had been severe and
stern, yet during the ten years the poor-law bad been in opera-
tion, the people of England and Wales hail contributed no less
than 49,000,000/. for the relief of the poor. —( Loud cries of
" Hear, hear.") True, he believed, that not only in a reli-
gious or moral view, but on purely economical principles, and
to ensure the safety and security of the country, it was good
economy to lay out this amount of 50,000,000/. on tae poor of
England and Wales.—( Hear, hear.) He had here various
extracts from different reports, showing the number of persons
who had received relief at various times under the poor-law of
England. He found that, in the year 1840, the total
number of poor relieved was 1,199,000 • in 1841,
the total slumber relieved was 1,299,000, being an
increase of 100,000 ; in 1842 the number relieved was
1,429,000, and some odd hundreds, making some nine per cent.
of the population of the country. And the mode in which this
number was increased, and the reason why they were increased,
was this—that during these years they were visited by a defi-
cient harvest, and there were numbers in want of food and of
employment. Immediately that took place the rates were
enormously increased. He had a statement there which was
taken from a speech of the Hon. Member for Bolton, made,
he believed, in the year 1842. The Hon. Member stated
with regard to the mortality, that in the year 1839 the number
of persons who died in Leicestershire was I in 48, and in the
year 1840, 1 in 39 ; in Nottingham, in the year 1839, the
mortality was 1 in 47, and in 1840, 1 in 35 ; in Lancashire,
the deaths in 1839 were lin 35, and in 1840, 1 in 31. But

the poor rates which, in 1835, 1836, and 1831, had been
11,9001., had risen in 18-12 to 16,7451. Now that was the
mode in which the English law provided for the destitute
in this country in years of distress, similar to
what had taken place in Ireland, with this diffe-
rence, that now, there was more than ordinary distress felt
over their empire, with a corresponding want of food and em-
ployment. What he, therefore, proposed to the House was,
that with regard to Ireland, with regard to her future and per-
manent condition, to take advantage of the seasons in which
they had good harvests, and tolerable employment, with the
view of meeting their distress and destitution arising from de-
ficient harvests ; he proposed that the same mode of relief, and
the same nature of relief which was given in England, should
be given to Ireland, under similar circumstances. He did not

...........
mean to propose that the Irish should be a measure identical in
every way with the English law ; he did not mean that those
provisions which were connected with the abuses of the old
law, should be introduced into Ireland. Ile thought that in
introducing this law into Ireland, they had a great advantage
secured in the workhouses already established in that country.
But they took care when they first introduced the poor-law
into Ireland, to establish workhouses in the first instance, and
therefore, the proprietors, and guardians of the unions of Ire-
land, would always have that tcst ; they would be enabled to
applya that test, and to say to the poor, " if you are des' itute
vti
e(iinf want, come into the workhouse, and you shall be pro-
the wzi.th:lfxseth
.14 or there." He could not th nk himself, that when the
infirm and aged were' removed from the workhouse,
would riot be fully sufficient to relieve
distress, and he tlopuo,olr,
the w.
except in times of extraordinary
power
rgwita likewise. that if in times of extraor-
dinary distress
gmtvoent to increase the workhouse ac-
commodation it would -1:.
test against imposture and thequeemstiaonds for idleness. But
usefuld in obtaining a further
he meant
which he did not
briefly
there was another part of this
wish to touch upon in detail, and to which
to refer, but which formed with him, he musimsaeyanAt
evoeni! yyuictoegt
reason for pressing this Bill upon the House.- '
ad-
mitted that the present calamity had been so greatl that no

attempt under the poor-law with the population which existed
in Ireland at the commencement of the year 1846 would have
been fully equal to meet the emergency. He did believe,
most unfortunately for Ireland, that there had, under the
connivance of landlords, of tenants and labourers grown up a
miserable destitute population, ass immense array of person=,
whose numbers, and whose dreadful condition, formed the sub-
ject of reports of Commissions to whirls he had referred upon
other occasions. He did think that, with this state of the po-
pulation existing in parts of Ireland, it would have been im-
possible for the proprietors and landlcrds of the country to
have provided any direct measure of relief during the pre
sent year; but he must add to this, that although great nurn
hers of the resident gentry had done their utmost—although
they had exerted their utmost energies—although they had
been content to forego their usual mode of living, and many of
the expenses which were necessarily given for the education of
their familis s—he did not think that, taken on the whole,
taking residents and absentees, every person who participated
in the thirteen millions rental of Ireland, had exerted
himself as he should have done under the circumstances.
He collected this from the frequent statements which were
made, that while the resident gentry had munificently contri-
buted, and were giving their one, two, or three hundred
pounds, as they could afford, that too many of those proprietors
to whom letters had been sent had not contributed anything
towards the relief of the distress. Upon that ground he said
in the first place that pi operty had not done all that it should have
done, and he must say that there were many among the resident
proprietors who should go further in the way of contributing to
those expenses, further in the way of abstinence from those
things which might be called the luxuries of life—( Hear,
hear)—than they bad hitherto done. He would not go fur-
ther into this subject at present. He found himself bound to
state thus much ; he felt it as an evil pressing upon his mind,
and he thought hat those were reasons, if such were the im-
pressions of others' why they should rot leave the destitute
poor of Ireland, in future years, to hazard and to dangers such
as they had been exposed to in the present year.—(Cheers.)
He was told, indeed, that with respect to some parts of
Ireland. the population was so greet, and the rental so inade-
quate for the subsistence of the destitute poor, that proprietors
must altogether b oak down under the obligation which this
law would impose upon them. He did not believe that such
would be the case. He believed in the capacity of the soil of
Ireland, he believed in the willingness to labour of the people
in Ireland—(Loud cheers)—he believed that the soil of Ireland
might be made far more productive than it was, and that the
general produce of Ireland might be made ranch greater.—
( Hear, hear.) He confessed that, as the matter now stood,
the payments to the destitute poor might take a larger propor-
tion of the rentals than was obtained. He did not think, how-
ever, that those payments amounted to a fair proportion of the
rental obtained, and he thought that they might at least
attempt to give some further proportion than had been given
of late years to the support of her destitute poor.—( Hear,
hear.) He found that in the year 1841 the expenditure for the
relief and maintenance of the poor of England was 5,039,733!.,
being at the rate of ls. 7id. in the pound on the rental of the
property; and that in Ireland the annual value of property
amounted to 13,204,2341., bat the expenditure for the support
of the poor was only 298,813/., being at the rate of 5,4 d. in the
pound on the annual value of Irish property. But let not any one
suppose for a moment that he quoted these facts for the pure
pose of reproaching the owners of property in Ireland, who, it
was right to state, paid something under 6d. in the pound. If
they were not, however, required by the law to pay more, and
if higher rates had been imposed, the Poor-law Commissioners
would have decided that it was an illegal act ; he quoted
them simply to show, that there remained property in
Ireland which might be further assessed for the re-
lief of the destitute poor, and on the owners of
which they had a perfect right to call for further assistance,
more especially during the prevalence of the awful calamity
which had devastated that unhappy country. When the im-
position of this additional tax has become much greater than
at present, and was found to be a burden, it would then be
time for them to come forward and complain ; but the present
was not the moment for them to come forward to urge that
on behalf of its reduction.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to a
subject to which much public attention had been directed—the
union of Skibbereen—he wished to say a few words.
Every one had been shocked by the accounts which had been
received of the deaths which had occurred in that town, ant
of the number of persons who were in the nu- It miserable cen-
dit ion, but little removed from death. A gentleman who called
upon him (Lord J. Russell) and who was well worthy of helief,
handed him a letter from a person residing in that Fart of Ire-
land, which stated that the pr. perty there was rated at 98,000!.,
but that the actual value of the property was 130,0001. t year.
That until last September, no rate above sixpence in the
pound had been levied ; that it was increased to
ninepence in the i+mond in the course of that morels,
but that that rate had never been levied.---( Hear.) Now
there, he thought, was an instance, and the correspondence
furnished many others, that even under the present law there
had not been that due assessment for the relief of the poor
which ought to have been made on those possessed of property
in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He said, therefore, that these were
the reasons for the enactment of the Bill which he had proposed.
—( Hear. ) He was aware, that in passing such a Bill he was
asking them to frame a law different, in fact, in
many important respects from that law which
was now considered to be the law of Scotland.
The law of Scotland, as enacted at the time of the revolution of
1688, made a provision which would have been applicable to
able-bodied poor—( Hear, hear)—if a different interpretation
had not been put upon it by the courts of Justice, who derided
that it should be confined to the infirm and the sick, and it had
been so confined; but there had not been in Scotland of past
years, or even during the present year, any case which should
induce him to wsh to alter or to amend that Act whirls
was introduced by the Right Honourable Gentleman
the Member for Dorchester (Sir J. Graham) two years ago.
He believed that that Act was conformable to the feelings of
the Scotch people, he believed that the good feeling of all
classes in Scotland would induce them at any period of distress
to give immediate assistance to each other. He knew that at
the present moment many proprietors in Scotland had very
nearly ruined themselves by their benevolent effo, is to save
their people from starving. He believed that they considered
that as an obligation on them, if not legally, yet morally, and
every exertion was made in Scotland to save the people from
destitution. He thought that in Ireland the law ought to be
more conformable to that of England. He did not think that
the people of England would be safe if there were not a law
in this country which entitled the able-bodied to relief. He
was much concerr.ed on the reformation of the poor-law—in
the passing of the Poor-law Amendment Act of the year 1834
—but he did not remember that at any time when they
were reforming that law of the present clay, they ever contem-
plated depriving the starving able-bodied poor of their chance
of obtaining relief in any part of the country. He believed
himself that that arrangement was necessary to
the peace and security of this country, and lie
believed that it would be found necessary to the
peace and security of Ireland. They must expect a great
change as soon as other cultivation should have taken the place
of the potato, and many of those who had holdings to which
they were attached solely fur the crop of potatoes they afforded,
would take the place of able-bodied labourers, and from time
to time be thrown into a state of destitution. He believed
that such a law as he then proposed would induce the pro-
prietors and farmers to give a greater quantity of employment
than they could otherwise do. He believed that when they
saw that those men must be maintained, they would say they
are able-bodied men, they must be maintained, and they had
better do good work in producing food for the future harvest
than do useless work and be paid fur it out of our rates. This
much, therefore, the farmer and the landlord would increase
the employment given to the able-bodied population of this
country. There were some other alterations, to which he
needed scarcely to allude, which he proposed to introduce into
the Bill before the House. There was one which had pro-
duced in Ireland, as it had produced when he had stated it in
that House, considerable dissatisfaction. It was the proposal
that one half of all the boards of guardians should be formed
of magistrates, being ex-officio guardians. He believed
that this objection was founded on an old belief, te which
he saw one of the Bishops of the Roman Catholic church still
clung. It was the supposition that the magistrates were hos-
o tilef t
eo
oh
oe iort
rrv.
el i g iiof he
u s rites,thooagnheltthathostileh
t tois bad feeling
the po] i ferxe
lest:
eo
and that the body of the magistrates of the country were con-
sidered by the farmers and labourers as their enemies, he
should doubt the propriety of placing the same body equal in
number on the boards of guardians. But he believed they
were on the eve of a great change in Ireland, and he thought
the resolutions he had referred to earlier in his address proved
this. These resolutions of public meetings held in Ireland,
with other accounts which from time to time he had received
were symptoms of a great change. He thought that
the Protestant classes both in England and Ire-
land had for a long time suspended their claims
to superior consideration. The Protestants of England had
had no adversary to deal with, but with regard to Ireland they
were in immediate collision with the mast numerous class of
their fellow citizens. Between these classes had grown
up; the one endeavouring to maintain due attention and con-
sideration to their claims for pre-eminence, and at the same
time securing the constitution cf the country, and the other
class, thinking that they were justly entitled to equal pri-
vileges with the former in the land of their birth.--(Hear,
hear.) But he trusted that this question, or, at least, the
most of it, was already solved, and that the whoF of it was
in the fair way of resolution, not only by Legislative enact-
ments, but by the progress of national feeling and disposition.
—( Hear, hear.) If he thought that this or any other Bill
which he proposed would set class against class, or clergy
against clergy, he would pause ere he proposed them, but he
did hope they were in the transition state, and that though
their might be some reaction, the time would soon come when
all would act together for the benefit of Ireland.—( Cheers, )
And seeing these symptoms, he hoped that with respect to the
boards of guardians, and with respect to the other relations
of society in Ireland, that they should see, Tory and Whig,
Radical and Repealer, differing, as no doubt they would do,
on political questions, yet blended together in social compact,
prepared to act for the common weal, and above all to distri-
bute justice, without any bias from political feeling.—(Hear,
hear.) It was with this hope, and not with any view
to give any supremacy to the ex-rfficio guardians, that
he had introduced the last clause into this Bill.
It was stated that there were in the Cabinet two, or three, or
four Irish proprietors, who were supposed to influence its deli-
berations favourably towards property. Such was not the fact.
Those very members of the Cabinet were parties with him in pro-
posing the Bill.—(Cheers.) They were prepared tobearthe bur-
den which might be imposed upon them, and it was with their
sanction and high authority that he asked the House to go into
Committee upon the Bill.
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN said that the statement made
by the First Minister of the Crown was one which called for
their most serious consideration. The Noble Lord had stated
that the expenditure on the destitute for this year would be
twelve millions of money, and that the rental of the country
only exceeded that expenditure by one million.
Money had been spent, not upon fertilising the land, but
upon useless works, and for that he blamed the Government.
Colonel Jones had asked who were the labouring poor ?—there
was no answer to that question until the 26th of October, and
then came out the circular respecting the 61. rating. That
was a point which should have been earlier ascertained, how-
ever those were the two points for which he blamed the Go-
vernment, although he was willing to make great allowances
for the difficulty of the Noble Lord's position. Ile considered
that the experiment of a poor-law should be tried in Ireland,
and he was therefore willing to lend him his support.
He could freely say that the warmest feeling, and sympathy.
and charity of this country was extended to Ireland, and he
hoped that these feelings would unite the two countries more
and more, and remove any bitterness of feeling or animosity
which might have existed. The Nob'e Lord had referred to
the English law as a standard for the Irish law. He (Mr. S.
O'Brien) had before stated, and, as he thought, wisely, that he
had rather take the English poor-law, clause by clause, and
letter by letter for Ireland, than any other law. The electoral
divisions were even now, practically, parishes. There was,
then, a Bill before the House with reference to the relief of the

smaller tenants of England from rates, and lie would be quite
satisfied if the Noble Lord would take the poor law and apply
it equally to both countries. Let them have one system of

settlement and one system of exemption—one regulating
power for the law in both countries, and they would have the

best secur.ty for its management, and the best remedy
for its errors.—( Hear, hear.) As an English Mem-
ber, he could mot say more ; he had alreakiy stated
the fact to the Irish Members, and he believed that if the pro-
position had been earlier adopted, Ireland would have been in
a better position. If it was the wish of the House, as he sup-
posed it was, he should apply himself to the consideration of
the principles of the measure, and their immediate effect. He
fully agreed with the Noble Lord that the principle of out-door
relief was required in Ireland, and also that one-half of the

board of guardians should be ereqPicio, but he was ',of opinion
that the class from which these ex-ollicio guardians were to be
chosen, did not equal the class from which they were ehe en :n
England, and they might therefore exercise a strong influence
over the landlord by the terror of the starving multitude. Ile
believed that the area of taxation under the present Bill was
too large, and he knew that many Irish gentlemen would have
come forward before to improve their lands, if the areahad been
smaller. He begged the t ;oeernment not to increase that area.
The change which was to be introduced was by altering the
territorial divisions from what they were. He would propose
that they should strike out the 10th cluuse altogether, and
leave those divisions as they then stood. In order to show the
Noble Lord how necessary it would be to reconsider this act
with reference to the electoral divisions, he would refer to the
present state of territorial division. There were unions, con-
taining 507,154 acres, and varying down to 38,000 acres.
There were electoral divisions from 570,154 acres, to 38,000
acres, and there were townlands from 145,598 acres, down to
532. These varied from 131,000 in population to 300 ; that
amount the Boards of Guardians had the power of uniting into
one district, and only one Board in all Ireland had availed
themselves of that power. If the Noble Lord was willing to
leave these evils to the decision of the Poor Law Commission-
ers, to the decision of the Board of Guardians, or even to the
judgement of those who had property in Ireland, he would be
satisfied, but if he persisted in going against the Poor-law
Commissioner, the responsibility would be upon his own head.
In the parishes of England, generally, a considerable quantity
of the money which was used for the poor was used for the
Irish, and yet no complaints were made; for all that was
asked was, that each landowner should bear his share in the
expenses. That was the principle of the English poor-law,
and it was one which could not fail to excite considerable satis-
faction in Ireland. Let them take, if they chose, a national
rate; but between that and such a plan as he proposed there
was no medium. There were 236,000 acres in the union of
Skibereen, and there the system of union rating had been tried
and failed. But they talked of the union-at-large system : on
this there was a case which was decisive on the
point. In the union of Skerrat, in the county
of Clare this system had been tried, and it had been found that
while the union rate was 174,0001., the electoral division rate
was but 114,0304 This was the only instance in which the
principle-proposed now to be extended to all Ireland had been
tried, and it had proved a failure. This being the case, he
wished the Government joy of the course they proposed to
take. If they abandoned the electoral division rate system, let
them extend the system, pay the expense of the workhouses
out of the consolidated fund, and take all the rates themselves,
raised by a national impost. This would be a better course
than the one now proposed. They were about extending a
poor-law to Ireland in a season of great distress, and
they should be aware lest they not only injured the
poor, but ruined the gentry of Ireland by the course proposed.
At present, therefore, all he asked was for the Government to
strike out the tenth clause of the Bill, and leave the principles
contained in it to be treated as a whole. If the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government, did not attend to these sugges-
tions, he (Mr. Stafford O'Brien) thought he would disappoint
many of those on whom he mainly relied for support.
Mr. P. SCROPE wished to occupy the House but a short
time on one or two points, especially that relating to out-door
relief. With respect to rating, he admitted that it was a diffi-
cult question at present. Perhaps, under the circumstances,
a system of estate rating would be the best, as it would stimu-
late the proprietors to do everything in their power to employ
the labourers under them. With reference to the great
question of out-door relief, he must express his deep and heart-
felt thanls to the Noble Lord, for the great and noble senti-
ments which he had expressed that night: a speech that would
find an echo in the breast of the people of England generally.
—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. ticrope) was firmly convinced that
out-door relief could not fora day, with safety, be suspended in
England; and further, he did not think this country would have
ever reached its present state of prosperity, unless by such a
poor-law as had been in operation. England, before the en
actrnent of this law, was a kind of Tipperary; person and
property were not secure; but the wise and good men of the
time of Elizabeth provided an efficient remedy in the law for
the relief of the able-bodied poor which they enacted. Let
the same kind of law be extended to Ireland, and he felt sure
that agrarian outrage and its attendant evils would soon cea-e.
With regard to the Bill before the House, he must say that its
provisions did not come up to the principle stated in the address
of the Noble Lord, lie had always considered that the ques-
tion was as much an English as an Irish question. It was in-
dispensably necessary, even to the welfare of the English
people, that the condition of the people of Ire-
sand should be raised from its present degrading level.
she present mode of relief in Ireland tended to crowd the
labour market of this country, to contaminate, by their misery
and squalid wretchedness, the condition of the English poor,
compete with them for employment, and finally to raise the
amount of the poors' rates of this country. It might be sail
that so long as the union existed between the two countries,
this influx of Irish paupers could not be prevented. L was,
then, so much the more necessary that the law should be al-
tered so as to afford to the Irish people the means of support in
their own country, and thus prevent them becoming chargeable
to this country. If the laws of the two countries were equal-
ized the people of thin country could trot complain of the mi-
gration and permanent settlement of the Irish paupers. He
mentioned the other night some facts tending to show that an
immense system of depopulation was going on in Ireland, and
that the landlords of that country were making all possible
use of the process of ejectment to clear their es-
tates, arid thereby rid themselves of the burden
of supporting them. The authorities of Liverpool had sent
over some persons to inquire into the real cause of the immense
emigration which was continually going on. Those persons
formed immense crowds, travellavg in the direction of England,
and from them those persons learned that the reason the par-
ties were coming over to England was, that they believed that
it was the law in England that no person should starve. To
such an extent was this emigration going on, that he had no
doubt in a short time upwards of one million of those Irish
j augers would be able to obtain a permanent settlement in
this country under the provisions of the Poor-law Settlement
Act, passed in the last session of Parliament. He hoped,
therefore, that, in the proposed measure for Ireland, the same
provisions should be made that existed in this country, and
that, in this respect atleast, the two countries should be placed
upon an equal footing. He believed that such a
measure, so far from proving an injury to
Ireland, would be the cause of raising that country
from its present degraded and miserable condition. He hoped
that the Noble Lord would reconsider his proposition, not to
afford any out-door relief until such times as the workhouses
were full. He was supported in his view that it was necessary
to afford out-door relief by several Irish landlords and Members
on both sides of the House. And a work published by Mr.
Shafto Adair, most strongly recommended a system of out-
door relief. And he (Mr. P. Scrope) believed that any poor-
law would be perfectly nugatory which did not provide a system
of relief equally to the able-bodied and infirm destitute.
Mr. GREGORY said that the Hon. Member for Stroud
had hitherto had great vantage ground to go upon, for, both by
his voice and pen, he had tried to distinguish himself as a friend
to suffering humanity. But they, on that side of the
House, who held that the amelioration of the condition
of the Irish people was a work of time, and was not to
to be accomplished by a hastily considered measure—they who
looked beneath the surface for the cause of the evils which
afflicted Ireland, they were stigmatised as hard-hearted land-
lords, or flinty political economists. He was no admirer of
the measure which was intended to be intro !steed by her Ma-
jesty's
'sGovernment, for, in his opinion, its effect would be to
swallow u7slmrni•hepnrto'perty ; and, however much some Gentle-
men that House might desire to see such a consummation,
estin
he (Mr. Gregory) considered that it would be found that the
result would add only a darker shade to misery, which was but
too sombre already. Let him ask lion. Gentlemen opposite,
what was the relief which had been extended to many dis-
tricts—what had the setting the labouring population to work
done in mitigation of the evil—almost nothing. And now
they had another of the Noble Lord's measures—a measure
which would be found even more ineffectual than those
that had
gone
—a willing degradation—a degradation so
before. --( Hear, hear.) If the
passed it they would entail upon themselves all
y
the evils of the old poor-law. They would degrade the pea-
santld learn to scorn his industrious anti more
honest neighbour. When the poor-law was imposed upon
abjectto, thpaatu
England it was guarded by the strictest provisions. Under
these restrictions the people were protected from injury. But
pheeriswmou
under the resolutions proposed by the Noble Lord it was pro-
posed to give a poor-law to Ireland without those protections.
When this poor-law was proposed
the population of a square
mile in Ireland was 300, while that of England was only 250,
while that of Wales was 210, and that of Scotland was 200.
Did the Noble Lord remember that Ireland had 2,500,000 of
paupers, to whom this assistance was to be rendered, and the
whole rental of the island was only 11,000,000 a, and the sum
to be deducted for the relief of the paupers was 2,375,0001.?
There were three causes which would render this motion ino-
perative, for the whole of the resources would not suffice for that
relief. These three causes were, in the first place, the want of
the means; the second was the want of floating capital ; and
the third was the want of the means of demand for the em-
ployment of this capital, even if it were in active employment.
He then would argue that there were no means of bringing
these appliances into play.
Mr. DILLON BRO WNE said the Hon. Member who had
jest sat down had asserted that the measures proposed by the
Government were not sufficient for the purpose for which they
had been introduced. To a certain degree he agreed with
him, for these measures were not calculated to meet the whole

of the exigency,ani he thought that when their was absolute
destitution there was an absolute claim to relief. The Govern.
ment would, in fact, have to come down next year, and ask for
further assistance, for they would have to give assistance in
proportion to the want of the employment of industry, and the
landlords :could say that they had better give a shilling for the
support of the poor rather than give it to the casual poor who
were dependent for relief. At the present moment there were
upwards of 600,000 persons holding more than one acre and less
than five. Now, the person holding five acres was much worse
off than those holding one acre. There was one acre employed
in potatoes and two in oats, but the produce of those acres
was all lost in the subsistence of the people. The system pur-
sued in Ireland was the most injurious, the most grinding, the
most distressing of any in Europe, and this was owing to the
rack-rent that was drawn from the land. He would take the

cave of Mr. Beasy, where the tenants were ejected because
they could not pay their rents, and why could they not 2—why,
because when those tenants offered to pay their rents they could
not pay their rates. Then take the case of Lord Lucan'a

estate.- The Noble Earl had-endeavoured to justify himself
from the charges which had been brought against him, but it
was all in vain. He (Mr. Dillon Browne) knew the county of
Mayo well, arid he could say that the Earl of Lucan had not
spent one shilling in the improvement of his property.
But what was the course pursued? Why, he said, that let the
tenants reclaim the waste lands, and then they should have a
lease for their holdings. The whole of the evils, in fact, arose
from the system of letting lands in Ireland. In the county of
Mayo there were 50,000 acres which rendered no return to the
poor-rates, and how was that return to be obtained ? Cer-
tainly not under the present system. He had then another ob-
jection to the choice of guardians, for, in one place in the
county of Mayo they were paying tenpence for the expenses,
and twopence only for the support of the poor in the district.
He deeply lamented that the Government had taken the
electoral division, for he was desirous that they should have
taken the territorial divisions proposed by the Hon. Mem-
ber for Northampton (Mr. S. O'Brien.) He was himself an
electoral guardian, and the Nob!e Lord had been the means
of preventing his becoming an ex-(Sieio guardian; and from
the knowledge which he had gained in that capacity, he deeply
regretted that the House had not adopted the system for
reclaiming the waste lands of Ireland. He thought that the
English Members would have a right to complain if the Irish
Members did not
their people. , under ordinary circumstances, provide for

•
Mr.• BA TESON gave the present Government credit for
having the best possible intention towards Ireland, and he
freely admitted that they had shown every desire to ameliorate
the present distressing condition of its people. gtill there ap-
peared to be some undercurrent at work, which prevented
them from carrying their good intentions into effect. He
agreed with his Hon. Friend the Member for Dublin, that the
proposal for out-door relief was highly objectionable. It would
encourage idleness, and reduce Ireland to one large union, with
till Prime Minister of England for the head relieving officer.
It would have the effect of stopping improvement, and render
neutral the beneficial provisions of the Bill. It would feed the
idle at the expense of the industrious and confound the good
with the bad. He was quite,ready to give his consent to any
proposal for increasing the accommodation of the union work-
houses of Ireland, but he must protest altogether against out-
door relief. He was an advocate for electoral divisions, making
every parish liable for the support of its own poor, and 1.
depend upon it, sooner or later, this principle would

have to be adopted. Before he sat down lie must express his
regret that Government had propesed no plan of emigration
L woo ! have Lee: te lee! et; the eee ee:
of boards of guardians for encouraging emigration, than wast-
ing the time and money of the public upon plans which had
long since been exploded. In the absence of these additientl
powers, many small farmers, now anxious to try their fortune
abroad, would be thrown upon the preee!te a funds for subsist-
ence, and he toped the seteji n would not close without
Government coming Ktesereri wit Jan extensive emigration
scheme for the midi Ic ltne people of Ireland, whose present
condition as tte. at abject and distressing.—( Cheers.) Unless
Government took some step c f that nature, Ireland would ere
long become a huge mass of misery and destitut'on.—( Hear. )
Sir W. Al OLES WORTH said the question for the considera-
tion of the House was one of so much importance not only to
Ireland, but also to Great Britain, that he could not content
himself with merely saving that he concurred generally in the
views of the Noble Lord the Member for the city of London,
but must ask permission to state his opinion upon the subject.
The question for the consideration of the House wee, whether
the present Irish poor-law ought to ba amended, and whether
out-door relief should or should not be established, and, if it
should be established, to what class of paupers should it be
applied? Now, let him ask the House what was the object of
the poor-law. According to the report of the Commission ap-
pointed to inquire into the expediency of improving or extend-
ing it, the object was to make provision for the poor
against starvation, and, in doing so, to attempt
to put an end to agrarian outrages in Ireland.
It was expected that such a system of Irish Poor-laws would
have put an end to vagrancy, and would have prevented most
of the idleness and intemperance of the people. Other not less
important results were also anticipated; and as to the improve-
ment of the soil, and the flowing of capital into the country, what
had been the result? Had agrarian outrages diminished, or
had the people become more industrious or more
temperate? No; they had not ; as. the population
of Ireland, but for the aid of this country, would
be carried off by starvation. It was clear, therefore, that the
anticipations which were held out at the passing of the poor
law had not been realised, and that new and more stringent
measures were absolutely necessary for the improvement of
Ireland. From a return made up to Lady-day 1845, it ap-
peared that there were 113 unions in Ireland, and that the po-
pulation which it contained was 7,500,000. In the course
of the quarter ending Lady-day 1845, 112,000, or 24 in every
1,000, received relief; during the same period there were 585
unions in England and Wales, the population of which was
13,250,000, out of whom 1,250,000 received relief, or 92 is.
every 1,000; the expense in Ireland being 94d. a head,
and in England 6s. 6d. ; consequently, every man, woman,
and child, in England contributed eight times more towards
the relief of the poor than in Ireland ; but it appeared by the
returns which had been furnished, that at the present moment,
independently of the present workhouse accommodation, that
900,000 stand in need of relief out of the poor-rates. There-
fore, if there was as much real distress in England as in Ire-
land, it followed, as a matter of course, that the poor-law of
Ireland was most defective, and did not afford, from its improper
working, the indigent poor the relief which they stood so much
in need of. Under the present poor-law, no relief was
afforded to those whom the crowds in the workhouses pre-
vented from obtaining admission, so that those thus situated were
left to perish. The Irisleworkhouses would not contain mote
than 100,000 at a time, but in the course of the year they
might afford accommodation to as many as 200,000; conse
quently the workhouse accommudation was most defec-
tive. and would remain so until they were increased,
fourfold. Mr. Nicholls, the Assistant Poor-law Commis-
sioner, stated that the workhouse accommodation required in was for one per cent. of the population, but in addi-
tion to the in-door accommodation the Poor-law Commis-
sioners allowed out-door relief to widows, and wives who hat
been deserted by their husbands ; orphans and children under
sixteen years of age, and they, even in cases of sickness, ex-
tended out-door relief to able-bodied persons, and 149,000
had received out-door relief in this way, the total numbet
during the quarter of the year, who had been so relieved
being 710,000. and the whole number for the year being about
1,0.10,000. However, if out-door relief was given in Ire
land, the workhouse accommodation would be sufficient. What
he wished was, to see the poor-laws of England and Irelane
assimilated, or that the persons who received out-door relief i
England might also receive it in Ireland. Then he appre-
hended that vagrancy and indolence, which the promoters of
the old Irish poor-law stated that measure would remove.
would be greatly diminished, and great benefit, in hi,
opinion, would in consequence result to Irelat d
Men would not starve as long as they could possibly obtain food.
sooner than starve, they would wage war upon society. The
English people expected that as English property was bound 14
sustain the poor, so Irish property should be made to support
its own poor. For these reasons, he would support an efficien
poor-law, without which, distress, mendicancy, and agrarist
outrages, would never cease in Ireland. He did not think tha
a poor-law would he a sufficient remedy, for subsidiary measure
should be adnptsd. He considered that a plan of syternatii
emigration should be adopt, d. There a ere two problems t,
be solved in Ireland, the one to induce the Irish labourer t(
seek steady and continuous employment, and th,
other was to afford him employment. A vagrancy
law anti a poor law, in his opinion, migh.
be able to effect that object ; but it was necessary that the Ii isi
proprietors should exert thems Ives. The bankrupt landed pro.
prietors were the greatest curse inflicted upon the country—
they were nothing else than bankrupts, as they were unable to
perform their duties which their property imposed upon then,
—thef should be swept away. They should be treated as
bankrupt shopmen—their properties should be sold, and then
estates should pass into the hands of those who were able an i
willing to discharge the duties of a landlord.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. SHAW said he could not help regretting that at a tans
when the Noble Lord should have gone into Committee spot,
a measure beneficial to Ireland that he should have chosen to
open a discussion upon the state of Ireland. He considered
such a course peculiarly unfortunate, and he arose because the
Noble Lord had made reference to him as one of the deputa-
tion that had waited upon him, and even had done him the
honour to refer to some observations which he had addressed to
him, lie would have been ready to have given the
Government every assistance, and although he was
never one of those who joined in the outcry against
the measures adopted for the state of Ireland, he
felt bound to say they were open to great objection.
in consequence of the abuses which existed. He did not think
that the Government would be able to feed a nation, and be
consequently, looked kindly at those measures, as they were
caught at in a time of necessity. But he did object to this
permanent measure as introduced by the Noble Lord, and hi
did not think that faith was kept with Ireland in thus
attempting to impose the system of out door relief. The
Noble Lord now advocated the measure contrary to his own re
corded conviction, when a member of Earl Grey's Government.
What said one of the temmissioners appointed by the Noble
Lord's Government, and upon which the poor-law professed
to be founded ?He said that out-door relief in Ireland, wools
introduce a principle, which had been felt as an evil in one
country, into another. The system of out-door relief was
only tolerated for a time as an evil, and a necessary one, in
England, and it would be a mischievous precedent to intro-
duce it into Ireland. It would induce a reliance for support
upon the rates, instead of upon individual industry. The
first report, which he found upon this subject, after the union
of England with Ireland, was in 1834, and it denounced the
principle of out-door relief as mischievous. ( Hear, hear. )
[The Honourable Member proceeded to read extracts at
some length from the report condemning the practice
iof out-door relief.] After the enactment of the
I English poor-law in 1838, a Committee sat upon the
subject, and they reported that they concurred in former re-
ports of other Committees, condemning the practice of out-
door relief, and recommended that it should not be continued
in operation. One of the reports of the Commissioners in
1824 asserted that the out-door relief debased the character of
the labourer, and rendered the feeling between master and
servant one of a most disagreeable character. It secured
subsistence to all—equally to tho idle and dissolute as to the
distressed but industrious workman. A report of a Committee
of the House of Lords also condemned the practice as one in-
jurious to the country; and from the evidence adduced on
that Committee, he saw that it had been asserted that al! the
evils produced in England by the poor-law in 300 years, would
be produced in Ireland in ten. Such were the opi-
nions the Noble Lord had challenged him to produce.
The next point on which the Noble Lord challenged him
was, that during the last twelve months he had interfered with
ordinary agricultural labour, and interfered with the produc-
tion of food. He heard it daily from Ireland, that so demora-
lised were the people by.the public works, that when the land-
lords offered them task work, by which they could earn 10s.
per week, they preferred working on the public roads, where
they could only earn ss. per week. The deputation which had
waited upon the Noble Lord, and of which he (Mr. Shaw) was
a member, had stated that there was no amount of in-door re-
lief which they were not prepared to submit to rather than
encourage the evils fostered by the system of out-door relief
The Noble Lord had said that he did not see the great diffi-
culty with regard to the proportion of the population to the
property. In Mayo the population was 400,000, and the rate-
able property was 350,000. Was it possible, even
supposing that the whole land was given up to
the people that it would afford them maintenance.
He maintained that in such a district as he had named it would
be perfectly impossible to carry such a law as that proposes
into effect. The Government had taken advantage of the pre-
sent time, when Ireland was in great distress, and when great
prejudice was excited against the landlords of Ireland, to in-
troduce the present question. And the difficulty was further
increased by the proceedings of the public press, and the dis-
cussions which had taken place in that House. The public
press especially had done every thing in its power to excite and
perpetuate this prejudice against the landlords of Ireland.
He would not have made reference to the press it
he did not think that the feelings expressed by it were not
participated in by a considerable portion of the Members of
this House. Both from the articles which had recently ap-
peared in the columns of the leading journals, as well as those
in many other newspapers, there was every evidence given that
nothing was left to induce them to misrepresent and prejudice
the proprietors of Ireland. (The Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man here read two extracts in illustration of what he had
stated.) All these circumstances had no doubt operated on the
Government to propose a measure with which, per-
haps they did not cordially agree; but they might
rest assured that if they succeeded in ruining the
Irish landlords, they would nevertheless still perpetuate the de-
gradation and misery of the people of Ireland. It was well
known that he had ever been a consistent and honest opponent
of the repeal of the union, but if such a system of misrepresen-
tation and abuse against the landlords and people of Ireland was
to be continued, he might see reason to change his views,
even upon that questien. He had it from undoubted authority
that not less than 200,0001. had been subscribed by Irish land-
lords since the beginning of this distress. This sum was inde-
pendent of the amounts expended about their own resi-
dences. He had hoped that this subject would have
been more temperately discussed, and he would not
endeavour, by any remarks of his, to add to the bitterness
which already existed. He would say in conclusion, however,
that he would feel it his duty to divide the House on the sub-
ject of out-door relief for the labouring poor in Ireland.
Mr. ELLICE said that the Honourable Member had
entered into a lengthened explanation of the evils under
which Irish landlords were labouring, and he quoted
extracts from certain public prints, conveying sentiments
which he was sure were not coincided in by any Member in
that Hou-e, or by any of the better disposed and thinking
classes cf this country. The Hon. Gentleman had said, also,
that the whole course of Government legislation had been
adverse to Ireland. - Surely, tins Hon. Gentleman had for-
gotten that the proceedings of the House bad been most
favourable to the country. Surely, he could not forget that
from the period of the Catholic Emancipation Act, down to
that time, every measure affecting Ireland that had received
the sanction of that House, was for the purpose of remedying
some grievance or granting some boon. It was true, that
they did look with some degree of expectation, to see
that Irish landlords did their duty. They did look to find
that some effort would he made by them to prevent
the influx of pauperism which burdened Liverpool arid the
other parts most contiguous to the sister country. It was not
necessary that they should go to Liverpool or the other parts of
the country, for they would find, in the districts of the metro-
polis—in the neighbourhood of Bethnal-green, and similar
localities, abundant proofs of the social evils which existed in
Ireland. The rates of those districts had been greatly raised
solely in consequence of the necessity under which they la-
boured of providing for the necessitous Irish poor. He thanked
and he was sure the country would thank, the Noble Lord for
the measure which he that evening had promised to bring for-
ward. From that measure he expected the greatest benefits to
accrue to Ireland. The small towns would have to follow the
example of the large towns. He would take the county of

Cork for instance, where he might be obliged to ruin a small
Landlord in order to support tare, eeseie ers, aril he he.
leeeet ides ewe,
was adapted to the general position of the country. He
would now allude to the question taken up by his Right lion.
Friend with respect to the poor-law as respected Scotland.
He quite agreed with his Right Hon. Friend the Member for
Dorsetshire, that such a law was necessary for Scotland. The
original position was the best possible for the introduction of a
poor law for that country. Taking all the circumstances of
the case, he could not et,rceive the analogy of the cases.
According to the ancient custom of Scotland, the
able-bodied labourer was entitled to support, but that
support was to be given for the work which he rendered
and, therefore, the cases were decidedly different, but he be-
lieved that the Irish labourer, if he were induced by the offer
of sufficient reward, would have been glad to live the requi-
site exertion for the advantages which he obtained.
Sir B. HALL rose amid much confusion, but was under-
stood to say, that he was quite aware of the effort that was to
be made on this question, though he was not prepared for the
epposltin that w as to be offered to te motio n of he Noble
Lord at o
the head of the Government.hflair was he att all aware
of the argument that was to be offered to con raciction to the
assertion of his Noble Friend, nor con d he altogether assent
to the proposi•ion that the Irish landlords were responsible fur
all the distress that had occurree in Ireland. To this extent
he quite agreed with his Hun. Friend the Member for Co-
ventry, but he did not agree with the assertion that the time
for discussion had now arrived. Hon. Gentlemen opposite
had asserted that the-time had now come for this discussion,
but to this he could not assent, for when a Bill stood for the
second reading he quite believed that it was the season for dis-
cussion of the principle of the Bill, and that this was not
the time. He did not mean to make his observations ebjec-
tionable to the Irish landlords, but was quite ready to allow
that what had occurred might be most distasteful to them at
the present moment, but he believed that afterwards they
would be most grateful for the assistance which had been ren-
dered. If he were to presume on the example of the Irish
landlords, he might adduce that of the Marquis of Lansdowne,
of Lord Portsmouth, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs,
and the Marquis of Donegal. But when he spoke
of the landlords of Ireland, he did not mean to
say that they had not done their duty. Why then were such
statements made, and what were the charges that were made?
The Hon. Gentleman had asked for his authorities, and he
assured him that before he sat down, he would give hint the
authorities on which he made his allegetions. He readily met
the challenge which hail been thrown out, and he did not
think that he should be doing his duty, unless he did meet that
challenge ; and, first of all he desired to meet the allegations
which had been made with respect to the conduct of the board
of guardians in Ireland. In doing this, he not only desired to
meet the case, which duty prescribed ; but he wished also, as
it was in truth a matter of importance, to consider
the feelings of the landlords of Ireland. He would now
show the House the grounds on which he was prepared to
prove that the landlords had not done their duty to Ireland.
The chief ground of accusation against the landlords was, that
they had not backed the levying of the poor rates. II the lion.
Gentleman would take the twelfth report of the Poor-law
Commissioners, he would find that there was the greatest diffi-
culty in collecting the rates for the relief of the poor, and es-
pecially in Queen's county and the county of Roscommon, and
more particularly in the parishes of Castlereagh and Westport,
and those which were adjoining. In the union of Tuam the,
guardians showed cause against a writ of mandamus, and the
court gave judgement against them. Notwithstanding this
judgment the guardians proceeded to collect a rate due in 1843.
Now he wished to show that there was a disinclination on the
part of boards of guardians to levy a rate for the poor.
He would show that in at veral unions, although they had been
established since the 20th of July, 1841, and some of them
even as early as 1839, yet up to the sth of Aueust, 1845, only
one rate had been levied. The Castlereagh union had levied
a rate of 4id. in the pound ; the unions of Carlow and Tuam
sd. in the pound. He thought that it would be only justice to
compare what had been done in Ireland with what had been
done in England. He would select some counties in England,
hearing the same proportion as other parts in Ireland. The
counties which lie would refer to contained a population
of 3,154,485 souls. The annual income assessed to
'he priors'-rates was 13,553,836/. ; the sum raised
by poor's rates, was 1,169,378'. ; the number of paupers re-
lieved was 380,490, or about 9 per cent. of the population,
and the rates collected amounted to 8 per cent, on the annual
value of property. Now, with respect to Ireland, what was the
a'ate of things? There were 130 unions in that country, with
a population of 8,174,000; the annual income assessed to the
penes rate was 13,2d4,2344 ; the amount levied for poor's
rates was 298.8131., or abut 2* per cent. on
he value of the property ; the number of paupers relieved
amounted to 125,724, or about 15 per cent of the p pula-
tion. Now the result of this was, that the poor's rates in Eng-
'and amounted to eight per cent on the value of the propel t,,
'bile in Ireland it was only 2,1 per cent. The paupers
relieved in England was 9 per cent., and in Ireland
only 11 per cent. The Hon. and Learned Member for Co. k
( Mr. D. O'Connell) had said on a former occasion that the
English Government were responsible for the lives of two and
half millions of people in Ireland. He ( Sir B. Hall) denied
that statement, and took occasion to express his opinion upon
'he conduct of some of the Irish landlords. The Right Hon.
Gentleman was fol-owed 11 the Right Hon. Baronet the Mem-
eer for Mallow ( Sir D Aorreys) who 'said that it was unfair
'o bring forward statements respecting Castlebar and other`
unions anti apply observations made upon these unions to the
whole of Ireland. They were exceptions to the general rule
as relating to the poor-laws in Ireland, and desired him
Sir B. Hall) to look to what was done in the
other 126 unions, and that it was only pandering
to the vitiated tastes of -the British public to
dwell upon the conduct of the guardians of these particular
unions. He had done so on the present occasion, and hoped
'hat he had satisfied the House of the difference which existed
in respect to the poor-law in the two countries. He held in
his hand a report collected from the Commissioners appointed
to inquire into the statistics of distress in the neighbourhood of
Mallow. He was sorry that the Right Hon. Member for
Hallow was not present, He would, however, make the
statements in order that they might go forth to the
world through the ordinary channels of information. The
return was dated the 7th of March, 1846, before
the great destitution which took place in the first year.
Now, he found in this report that the sheet contained sixty
families; and from the inquiries that had been made, it would
seem that, with the exception of four, the heads were out of
employment; none had clothing at all, and only three had beds
ding.—(Bear, hear.) In a neighbouring parish he found that
there were 207 families who were precisely in the same condi-
tion. The statements he had made could be supported with
the testimony of several clergymen, who had come over from
Ireland to wait upon the Noble Lord at the head of the Go-
vernment to assure him of the desirability of establishing out-
door relief. These gentlemen wished him to make some state-
ment upon the subject, but he stated that he would make no
statement to the House in reference to individuals unless he
was assured of the authenticity of the information which had
been communicated to him on the subject.—( Hear, hear.)
He, therefore, proposed now to quote from the report of a com-
mittee appointed to consider the subject, and he found from
that report that one of the witnesses was asked, ' Do the land-
lords of the district interest themselves in the improvement of
farming in your district?" The witness's reply was, " No inte-
rest whatever, except getting their rent."—( Cheers ) Another
witness added, " That landlords seldom or never gave assist-
ance to the tenants," while the anseer of another landlord
was that he " Did not want any tenant who wanted anything
from him." Now, let them see what the contributions of the
landlords had been towards relieving the prevailing distress in
the county of Mallow, deducting the subscriptions that had
been received from one liberal landlord, the contributions did
not amount to more than 951. ; one laudlord,who was receivin
i,OOOl. a year from the county, had only contributed 2/., acidic
another, who received 8,0001. a year from the district, had only
subscribed s'. The Hon. Gentleman then went on to quote a
number of other details and documents,'but the Hon. Member
lelivered himself on this, as well as in other parts of his speech,
m indistinctly, that it was impossible minuteiy to follow his
statements. The Hon. Member added that he was happy to
say that he had been furnished with a strong anti pleasing
contrast to the instances he had already given. It was the
cam of a gentleman who, although he had only a mortgage
if 1,0001. in the county, hall subscribed 901. towards alle-
viating the distress of the distriet, while the servant of the gen-
leman, an officer in the army who distinguished himself in the
Peninsular war, with the view of leetting an example to the
wealthy inhabitants of the district subscribed, 25/. The Hon.
Vember then road several other documents to the same effect.
A gentleman with 6,0004 a year gave 154 for the relief of the
door in his district. This was not a single case, there were
many others, where the possessors of large property
were not even equally liberal. The Hon. Member then read
several extracts from letters, showing the dreadful destitution
which prevailed in the country. He also referred to reports
aid on former occasions on the table of the House, and con-
inued thus:—That was the opinion entertained with respect
-o the conduct of the Irish landlords in 1723. But what was
'he opinion of the Rev. Dr. Doyle as to the conduct of Irish
landlords in 1820-100 years after? The Hon. Gentleman
-hen read the opinion to which he referred. It stated that many
f the Irish landlords had no means of judging of the
-ondition of their country except through their agents, and that
many of those who lived in the country were not :n a condition
make the sacrifices that were required of them. They were
sompelled, in consequence of the poverty of their t; Hants, to
edelivide their land, and to reap, in consequence, but meagre
',rats from it. But what said Dr. Doyle with respect to the
squireens ?" He salt , " They seldom possessed much property,
-tut nevertheless they managed to obtain an income of a few
hundreds a year."—( Hear, hear.) He characterised them in
4eneral terms "as the scourge of Ireland, as igno•
rant, bigoted, extremely dishonest, and in the habit
of telling all manner of falsehoods, but in such 'a
Nay as to carry with them the resemblance of truth."—
( Hear," and laughter.) Of course he (Sir B, Hall)
could not be considered answerable for these statements. He
went on to state " that they could not be trusted with one's
purse, and that few of them valued the sanctity of an oath."
He further added, that they were in the habit of" fomenting re-
ligious animosities, ready to impose taxes, and to share in them;"
and then he summed up the conduct of these persons by say-
ing, " without exaggeration they were the slave-drivers of
Ireland, and much resembled those of the same class in Ber-
muda."—(" Hear,hear," and " Oh, oh.") Well, all he could say
was, that that was the opinion entertained by one of their own

countrymen of themselves.
Mr. D. CALLAGHAN—Yes; but those are "squireens."
Sir B. HALL said unfortunately the squireens were a
very large class, but from information he bad received he
was not inclined to believe that they were the worst landlords.
The Hen. and Learned Gentleman the Recorder of Dublin
( Mr. Shaw) stated that that was not the proper time to
bring forward this question ; but what response had he made
to the challenge of the Noble Lord at the head of the Go-
vernment, when he stated, " If you do not approve of my pro-
position, why don't you devise a better remedy 1"—( Hear,
hear.) It appeared that various parties had lately met
for the purpose of discussing who was to maintain
the poor, and out of what funds.—(Hear, hear.) The
Repeal Association and the " Irish party," which seemed to
have very much dissolved of late, landlords at Fermoy, and
the Roman Catholic minister of two dioceses, had met and
as also had the grand jury of the county
odfisewusessetdmethaeth7hjcte,
who
passed various resolu'ions, one of which
lie would bring before the House. But great differences of
opinion prevailed on the subject amongst the members of the
Repeal Association.— ( Hear, hear.) For instance, the
Honourable Member for Mayo said, the only fault
he found with it was that it did not go
far enough. He always understood that that association consi-
de, ed the repeal of the union to be the only panacea for the
Hs of Ireland ; but he remembered perfectly well that the
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Cork (Mr. O'Connell) on
the motion for going into Committee on the existing Irish poor-
law, moved that they should not go into Committee until that
day three months; then again the Hon. Gentleman the
Member for Kilkenny (Mr. J. O'Connell) said he should
support the Bill, but in writing to "My dear Ray,"
he said "he objected to it exceedingly ; but if he entertained
this opinion, would it not be more manly, more straightforward,
to come forward and so express hitnself ?—( Hear.) They said ,
the measure was pressed upon them by the British Govern-
nent, and that they must accept it. But he (Sir B. Hall)
e.holly differed with them—it was not pressed upon them as a
burden which they ought not to bear, and which would press
hea.vil7 upon them, as they were simply called upon to do what
Englishmen had done for years, namely, to sup-
port their own countrymen when reduced to poverty.
But he would tell the Hon. Gentleman that if he did give his

support, and if he did vote for the measure, he ought to exert
all the influence which he possessed in Ireland to make the law
v.ork as efficiently as its warmest supporters would desire. He