The Sun.
London, England, 1841-03-20 00:00:00

SUPPLY.

The Haute then went into Committee of Supply, Mr.
BfiRNAL in the Chair.
Sir G. CLERK wished to ask the Chancellor of the
Exchequer a question wit'a respect to the naval expendi-
ture.
clot tiYaln red,are d
therethat w when
nas alai tdiutaficoretnetyandoiiiig
421,0001.
lb lb wished to know if the Honourable Gentle-
man intended to make any provision to meet
that excess. Would it not be proper to propose a vote
which would cover the whole demand?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
the Right Hon. Gentleman would remember that it was
not the ace,unt for the financial year, but from Vie lit of
January to the .lit cf Jaitufiry.
STr G. CLERK said that it was an account cf out-
standing demands against the Naval serfce, laid upon
the table of the House on the S..h of February. It ap-
pearad by that acccunt that the outstanding demands then
ascertained amounted to 1,400,000/. The whole sum
m
voted by Par:ii
ent to meet those demands was only
1,000,000/. Therefore, there was an excess of expendi-
ture cvir the sum which had been voted of 400,000/. He
wisbeci to know how that excess wes to be met ?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied
that not having hid notice of the nature of the question
it was impossible that 1 e could ensile: it.
Mr. IlEaniEs and SIR E. KNATCHBULL male a few ob-
servations, which were inaudible in the Tirol,.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
he had observed more than once on points of ac-
counts, that when because no notice had been given,
he had not beta able to give aa immediate explana-
tion, an attempt hal been made to give it an appearance
of a want of fair dealing on his part.—( Hear, hear.)
Now he had not the slightest desire of concealment with
regard to any account, and if proper notice had been given
in the present. instance, the Secretary of the Admiralty
would have hen ia his place, and would have been able to
give the desired explanation.—( Hear, hear.)
M. GOULBURN sail that if any question of impor-
tance was to, be put to any Member of the Govern-
meat it was but. fair, and to be expected, that
due notice should be given of it. Bat in
the present inqince the Chancellor of the Exchequer bad
laid on the table of the House an account of the navy debt,
wl ich showed the amount due to be 400,0001., and when,
therefore, the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed, that
a war ,ant should issue only for 165,0001., cauld there be
soy more naeral question, or one that could be more
naturally expected, than how he could reeoncile
the eAialates? He must say, that if ever there was a
question which a Minister might expect, he thought it
would be one like the present.—( Hear, bear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he was net, any rnore
than his Ri;ht Hon. Frimd, prepared far. this ques-
tion. It was e'oiely a mater of account, and de-
pnded on the mode in which the accounts were
made cut.—(Hear, hear, bear.). . With regard to the
army, he knew. that at the Victualling Office, ray-
. ments made on account of the army were always entered
to the year in which the service was voted, but with re-

Bard to the nary by the arrangement made by the R.glit
Hon. Gentlemen opposite, with the sanction of the Howe,
any demand paid in the year 1840, for instance. was
entered in that year, though voted in 1835, 36, 37,
38, or 39. This showed the distinction in the manner
of keeping accounts, and the necessity of understanding
it deFore zn answer. With respect to the Right
Hor. Gentleman (Mr. Goulburn), he (Lord J. Russell)
must say that nothing could be more candid than the manner
in wlich he always brought subjects of this sort before the
House. —( Herr, hear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM said that the Noble Lord drew a
distinction Between the way in which the army and navy
accounts were kept. Now that bed nothing whatever to
do with the question. Accarding to the vate, 165,0001.
were demanded to meat the naval expeoses, whereas the
total amount of expenditure was really 400,0001. Tha'
was the subject that required explanation. He (Sir J.
Graham) thought that the vote ought to be postponed.
Si' G. CLERK said that the Noble Lard had no right
whatever, on the present occasion, to charge him with
being guilty of any want of courtesy against the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer. He had not the least doubt
t'at there was no wish on his (the Chancellor of the
Excbrquer's) part to mystify the accounts, bat really it
appea-eel to him (Sir G. Clerk) that i-. was a mater
which required a few words of explanation, bow
the ditcrcpancy between the vote now propmei
and the amount of the standing demands had
arisen. He was surprised that neither the Secretary
for the Treasury, nor the Secretary to the Admi• a'ty were
present, who could perhaps better give art answer to a
question of detail than the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. LABOUCHHER Ethcught that in el question purely
relating to the naval accounts, and root to the question of
genera: expenditure, it was very extraordinary that it should
be made matte: of grate accusation agaiest the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer. He thought his Right Hon. Friend
had a right to he annoved at the matter.
Colonel SIBTIIO-RP complained r f the manner in
wl, cis the public accounts were kept, and cf the absence
of the Members of the Government who could answer the
important questions asked on that side of the 1-1 use.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER re-
gretted that the time of the House had Lean wasted in
such a discussion. He should have had no ohj2ction
whatever to answer the question had he been prepared.
The Housa then resumed, and the Chairman reported
progress.
SOUTH AUSTRALIA.

The ileu3.l then went law Committee on the South
Australii Acts.

• The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
would be remembered that en a former occasion a vote had
Lees proposed which had for its object to relieve the dis-
tress now prevailing in South Australia. The vote in the
rm in which it was proposed was objected to. He now
proposed to advance out of the Consolidated Fund the sum
of 155,0001. for the purpose of effecting this objt et.
Si; W. AIOLE S WORTH said he cordially approved
of what bad been proposed by the Hon. Gentleman, as the
only means of preventing oast distress in the celeny. It ap-
peared to him that the proposal did net go far enough
to meet the exigencies of the case. Not only ought the
bile which had been drawn by the Governor of South
Australia to be provided for, but in his ( Sir W. Moles.-
worth's) opinion the debt incurred by the ComMieiioners,
and due to the Enalgratiem Fund, ought also to be pail. The.
House war; perhaps, aware, that by an Act passed in 1834,
persons were induces to expend considerable sums of
money in waste landr. There were no funds now
available to the Emigration Fend, and the debt due to
those parties amounted to 56,0001. If they were bound to
pay the bills which had bean drawn by the Governor of the
colony, they were equelly bound to protect these individuals
from lose. One of the Colonisation Commissiorie;-s stated that
a great portion of the 56,000!. had been paid for the purchase
of land by country gerelemen, who were anxious to aff.prd
the means of emigration to their surplus tenantry. He
entreated the consideration of the Right Gentleman
and the Committee to the:e circumstance;, and recommeaded
that they would t Ike a supplementary vote for that sum.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. said
the Hon. Baronet did not appear to be nware ef the native
of the vt = It was not a fir al settlement.—( Hear.) It
merely provided for the rtlief of parties who were
place I in circumstances of great ettli,zulty, while
other questions were pending. . As the measure was
merely a temporary one he did not thick it necessary to
press the question at the present moment.
The resolution was then agreed to. The House re-
sumed, and the Report was ortlered to be received on
Monday,
POOR-LAW AMENDMENT .BILL.

. -
On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL that the Order
of the Day for going into Committee on the Poor-law
Arneadment BIL be real, a great tiumb:r of petitions on
the subject were presented, among which were a petition
presented by
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE, from eleven hundred of the
rale-payers of the parish cf St. Andrew'r, Holborn, and
other parishes in London, against extendiojkautholity
of the Cooirnissi:nters ; and in favour of r powers
being givr.n to the parochial officers. -',- -
Also a prrition presented by Lord HOWICK from
Norfolk, praying for sufficient discretion being given to the
Poor-law Guardians to enable them toeffurd out door re-
lief in cases where it might be necessary.
Ur. G. PALMER prefeated va petition from Brook-
dale, in Essex, against the P.:or-laws.
Sir DE LACY EVANS presented petitions from
parishes in Westminster, praying for modification of the
Poor-taws.
Mr. T. F. HOPE presented a petition froin•medical
practitioners in Gloucester, prayiAg f alteration a 3 re-
spects the employment of medical practioners.
Mr. AINSWORTH presented a Fetition from Bolton,
against the New Poor-law Bill.
Mr. HAWES presented a petition from Lambeth to the
same effect.

Sir J. Y. BULLER pre!entel a pzti•i3n from Ash-
burton to the same cif. et. _ .

Colonel WOOD presented a petition from the county
of B cc in to tl:e same effect.
Mr. B. WOOD presented apetition fro:n the palish of
S►. George, Southwark, praying for modifications in the
Colonel T. WOOD presented a p.itition from Kei-
sington ar.,nisst the Bill.
M. L HODGES presented a petition from Graveiend
to the same tffect. _ _

Mr. WAKLE Y presented peti.ions from St. Mary,
Nett ington, Surrey; from Lt ices hire; from the
Toacr Lilerty ; from the vicar, gua d ovetEeors
of a pariah in Berksh're ; from a Poor- uardian in
Chelsea, and a Poor-law glardian in Kensington, against
the passing of the Bill.
Petitions were also presented by Mr. Langdale,
from Hull, North Shields, Sommer...on, Hereford, and
'Taunton, praying that Roman Catholic paupers might be
allowel to attend their own religious worship on Sundays;
by Captain Pechell, from 4,980 inhabitants of Brighton,
praying the management might he entrusted to local au-
thorities; and by Sir John Tyrrell, from Essex, against
the Bel!.

Mr. WAKLEY said, that when he gave notice of the
motion an the paper, the Hon. Member for Preston had
not givea notice of his amendment; and he understood if
hie (Mr. Wakley's) amendment was negatived, it woule
prevent the amendment of the lion. Member for Prestea
from being entertained. He wanted to hear the eel:eats
of the Speaker on that point.
The SPEAKER said the motion cf the Hon. Mealber
for Finsbury did not in any way interfere with that of the
Hon. Member for Preston.
Mr. WAKLE Y then rose to meve that it bean instruc-
tion to the Cemtnittee to divide the Bill into two Bill,.
His motion would be a test of the sincerity of the ld OUC
with respect to the BM. With reference to the continu-
ance of the Commission, it was said by a great number
of Members that they would vote fair its continuance for
five year-, but no longer. Others sail they objected
to the Cemnaission altogether, but were in favour of car.
torn clauses of the Bill ; and thus batteeen this diversity
of feeling and opinion the majority of the House found
opportune:ea to vote on every occasion in ftvour of the
me :sine. Noe, supposing the Bill were divided let, two
parts, tee house would have an oppottunity of exeresaine
its opinion upon etch respectively. If they die desire
that the Coinntiss:on shouli teaminet3 at the cod of five
years—if they would act like practical and teaeible men
—if they desired to consult publ'e feeling as became the
representatives of the people, they could net object o
draw the Bill in such a form as should have the off :et of en-
ebliug them to work it when the Commission should
cease to exist. The present Bill would appear, from its
construction, to contemplate the permanent continuance
of the Commission. There was nothing in the pre tent
Bill that could lead any man to suppose that it was in.
tended, at the cad of five years, th it the Commission should
cease.—( Hear.) The e was not a word, a line, or a sen-
tence in any ono dance on which any fsiend of
the measure could place his finger and say, 't Here
is evidence that at the end of five years, it is our object
to terminate the Commission." This was not dealing
fairly with the people. It was a moat unfair, a most un
juet, and a most unphilosophical mode of proceeding.
With a people, like the English. they should say at once
what they intended to do. If they intended to make the
Commission permanent, they should flan° the Bill ae_
cordingly ; but it they intended it should cease, they should
come forward with a 8,11 suited to such a course. And be
said, unless this were done, the House was dealing trea-
cherously with the English community. Was there a
feeling that the people would not endure the continuance
of the Commission ? \Vas the House afraid to brave the
public feeling ? He was at a loss to understan I bow tl-e
great 1 sndedaristecracy of the country, who had such a
ateke at issue, could lend themselves, he nad almost said
meanly lend themselves, to promote a law of this nature.
Were they aware of what they were doing ? Ile was
astonished that any person, who voted for the continua:leo
of this law, cetld also encourage the e heation and en-
lightenment of the
people. It was impossible that en-
lightenment and this law could go on
...together. The
people saw that it was the means of protec tug the wealth
of the csuntry at the expense of every f eing which
ought to he respected among human beiegc. Thy saw
the aristocracy, f .r the purpose of maint lining
what they. considered to be their estates, insist
on the sactiticte of human life, and, not only so, but
piecing their own lives in jeopardy. If eireamstances such
as bad taken place ai these few days in the metropolis
occurred undar the eyes of the. Commissioners, chat !ewe
have taken place in distant parts of the empire ? A short
time since be was cakes upon to act officially at Isle-
wort.h-Workhouse, and to hold al inane-t on a chill that
died there. The child was taken to t'e Workhouse at
Ealing to be buried, a-al when the mother got t) the

church, (and she had to run all the way to reach it) she
was informed that the child could not be taken iota the
church, because it had (Fel cf. the small pox. She stated
that it was no such thing, that it had not had the small-
pox at al, and that it Arras a fabrication. The clergyman
then stated that Le should not inter the child, but would
send it beck to have an inquiry instituted, and wrote a
letter to Lisa (Mr. Wakley) on the subject. He considered
it his duty to imaue a warrant for an ineemst, and it was
proved that when the mother had been five weeks in the
workhouse, the child beicn a year old, the surgeon said it
ought tote weaned ; she said she 61 not object, and it
was taken from her and placed in the nen sery. It was
sent on Tuesday. Oa the Monday following she made
an ordinary visit to it, and on entering the nursery the
child was so changed that she could not recognise it. The
mother went to the Governor, and said she desired to leave
the house, for if she remained there another week it was
impossible the child could live. The Geyernor iefarmed
her they had first some liminess to settle. (It was an Biagi-
timate child.) The dexter saw it at two o'clock, and
stated there was nothing serious the matter. e That was
on the Menday following the Tuesday reamshich she was
admitted. On the following Suedame night, at niece
o'clock, the child was seized witleeeonvulsions, and at a
quemer to eleven it died. _The nurse informed the Go-
vernor c f the child's deathe but it came out in evidence,
that the mother was nee' informed of it until the mat
mornirg, when she keened the fact from the women in
the breakfast-room. Was the House prepared to sanc-
tion, uphold, and support such a system of legislation ?
or we e gentlemen so foolish as to believe that under such
a system they would remain in safe possession cf their
property? If they taught parents to have no regard for
their children, would those parents have inspect to pro-
perty? They might- talk of Radicalism and Ra-
dicals, and &eta:relic measures, but of all the
destructive lairs thM ever were int ented—of all %he
revolutionary lies that aver wee d.esigned---of all the
sanguinary laws—laws having a sanguinary tendency—e
that ever were framel, he believed the equal of this law
was never designed or .invented by any human being,--,
(Hear.) He wished the House could see the jurymen
when eases of this kind came before them, and briar .the
expressi,ns which they. applied te such violations of the
best feelings of human nature. What must have beer,
their feelings in the case to which he had refaced ? Seem
persona censi fermi that it was in the liehest degree useful
to have an efficient workhouse tset. Would the Home of
Commons decla.e that if a man heal a high spirit which
would not suffer bias to go into the workhouse, he should
starve ?—(hear.) From what he had seen of the twee, if
he had to choose between the workhouse and the House of
Correction, he would peer to go into the latter?.,.-,
• (Hear.) When this question was discussed before, Mena,
bers stieliously ahatained from alludirg to the aged,
the infirm, Red the desetving. It was unfairly az,
marred that those only applied to be admitted who were
ilk and disorderly parsons, cr p r ens g ncrelly of bad
character. They must all bo risva-e elr it there were an
inarrease number of men who bad maintriaed their families
in respectabiiim for twenty or thirty years, and were
then compelie I by unforeseen misfortunes to apply for
aid. Were such men to be treated i• g the. remainder
of their days in tl:e same manner as the spendthrift who
squandered his earnings, as the man who had neglected his
wife, and reduced his ilehlren to beggary and want ? Tha
Noble Lord did not hesitate to say that the Guardians
had no rlele to mai, e any distinction between merit and
emetic; in abort, that whether the destitution was un-
avoidable, or produced by reckless extravagance, the sumo,
rule eas to be applied. This wee, said in a reformed
House of Commons.—(Hear, hear.) Yes, a refcrmed,
but not an amended. House of Commons.—(Hear, hear.)
lie (Mr. Wakley) would - prefer having the old borough_
mongers there.—(Hear, heas.) He firmly believed
that it could he better for the interests of the
people.—( Hear, hear.) They would never have dared to
submit such a law ti the House, or to base so roused the
indignation of the pimple. Because the House was elected
by consideratle n asses of the people i. was presumed th:t
it was strong enoueh to eo k out a course of iniquity of
tLis demeietian. T. e people were riot rare eated by the
House ;if they were such a law eculd not exist. Be was;
sorry that h t had ever token part in Forked .g such
llou;e.—( (leer, hear, and leugl t m.) It eas utt_rly
possi'ele to r, fleet upon passing meats without being
p-inel and +-teed. The people of England were not an
e n•
eavieus or a ma ignant people; they were of a kindly and
generous disposition, and required nothing but kind treat-
meat. He ei I not beg eve that there existed on the fete
of the earth a mme honest-hearted or a better disposed
people. Tttcy euelit not then to be tremed harshly. It
had been said that this law would have the effect of
raising wager. The law had been in operation Me
years., and where was the increase ? They wcro
strictly enjoined by their sup erlera nut to come upon their
property on pia of being purished. Ey my one knew that
the great mars of the poor bad no deli •eis do so. rm.
di 1 nct ',mow what miell be the exact ma of things it;
the rural dim-M1.2 at the present time, but who he ;pas
boy, th ra was scarcely a Itkce abut a farrn house} that was
secured. Nobody thought of a thif—it.was the last thing
that ever elite: ad into Meenind. Eve ry firmer aad every
genVeman consi :rated ti .a he was surrounded by friends aad
supporters on eve•v aide.; What was the mate of t' ias,es
now ? Ha dial t finti the people so •fii -ndly to the landed
proprietora as -y formerly were. Lows bad been made
to prevent them mien ailing on the propetty of tie gentam,
and then they were turned round on ald tail they oitee
idler :eke whany sr stages was offered them, cr go inter,
the workhouse-. That hal not the effect of raisin g wages,
but the cot-era-ye He geld ia his hand a 'e ter from a Vise
sentissg el riomeam < f Oaf ,rdshire, in which he had stated
that an inde.strioes peer man, pith a family of Eve children,
had declared to him that Le would rather take five shillings
a week thin go the workhouse. He need not rerniud tbe
House of the case of the unfmtun tt s man who, a short
time since, wen foiled deal team starvation, nit tough he
had an order far the Kensington Union in his pocket. It
would appear tt a- the C i sieners had all the Dower
and autear ty in Mt it own heads, ani that the gentlemen
of Englau ', who were once so proud and 1- anghty,
were obliged to tuba-sit to them in .every instance.
Suppose a law w passad t i pra vent the gentry fmta
giving their d.gs food me e tl a once a week—would
they submit t ? N ; their dignity would rise a`. ore-,
and the yeomanry cavalry would he out in a weak with
their swords glittering on the lers.—( A laugh.) But
when they were told that they would act be showed to
feed the poor as they liked, then they truckled to the
Governmeet agents, and they say to the unfortuente
people—•' We would relieve you if we could, but the
Poor•lew Commissioners thiak you have got quite enough
to cam" Respecting as he did the insiiautions of the
country, valuing is peace, and deli inn to see content-
mkt, concord, and good feeling between the peoels and
their natural ewer stars---he, from the bottom of his heart,
present law, aid the epathy
deple-ed the existence of the
of the ones proud and high-minded gentry of England,
He should move, therefore, that the Bill be divided into
two Bills—that there be one Bill foe the Commissioners,
and that the other be so framed a; to work without the
Commisaionara, and he believed if tn e latter Bill' was SQ
framed it would ''dye general satisfac-ion.--( Haar.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said the Hon. Gentleman had
proposed to divi le the Bil into two, and he ha-I hem de-
sirous to Lear the arguments that might be urged en that
point, but the Igo; Gentleman had given none wiwevir,
—(1-lear, hear.) On the contrary, he hal addressed
himself to those inflammatory topics urged against the
Poor-law Amendment Bill, And had included in his attack
upon that meas:are va io As o•her topics Among other
questions
he had allude! to the merits and the working of
the Reform (dill. Thee certainly had been a great deal
of discussion as to its merits when it MIS before that House
and one paint hid heel very much discussed, namely, the
propriety of elating representadves to
.certain metropolitan
distriete—( Hear, hear, avid a ]saga.) It was admitted
that the large and populous towns of Birnriagham and
Manchester and these el aces might have representatives,
but it was said that if the metropolitan districts were to
obtain represent elves they would send into that House a
set of mischievous dereagogues—(Great cheering and
laugkter)—hiving no roga7d for the ge,.eral interests of
the people—that they might be lawy-em, and if they hap.
pened to sit in Courts of Justice they would turn them iota,
arenas for politi,tal discussion—( Cheering and laughter)—
if they happened to bold any (dice con! ece l with the ad-
minittetion of justice, they would lersert the pass-era
conferred on them to their ow t private and personal pur-
poses, and that whatev-r n ;gilt be the merits cf the other
pasts of the Bill, as re: meted cm: f r.ing Members on
these large towns, if tie metropolitaa districts obtained
the privilege, they woull see in that House men who
never choral f have Lima entrusted with the power of re-
preentiag the people.—(Hear, and cheers.) Among
other arguments tshich the Ho:. Gentleman used en the
preset.', as upon otle r cceasien-, was his repreieniing that
the Poor-law Amendment Act had a tendency to increase
th.
the value of property-that it gt-va inc security o
the rich Ile (Lord J. Russell) did Area4nientaeint
might have that effect—the Poor- law
no might thereby
might him," the effect of clirninishiag exeadah7ri"arketr a '.at
the waste that fern e.ly took ela:er
tend to lee rave the general I rape ty of theemestry, But
if tie 11W was in its teults le to too, country, if it
seised the character of the
gainst such an
labourer, and orew the dis-
tinction which might to be drawn between waste and the
relief of the poor, he aJ. Russel,) submitted that
Lord
P
wan by no means a conelu,ive argument
effect. Th , H mow-Able G erlernan narrated is iris usual
clew aid able ste/ei a particalar instance, from which he
drew refs tar.rs abi 'll were not justifiable. The particular
facts of the c.t,e vcre, that the child was subject to
a
disease
execcemgly commien among children, water on the
brain, attended with mnvuleons. The persons attending
upon the child stated, that whenever the mother ep-
ee, it am couvulmons became greater, and the tem-
proacw, ,
cr cf the child m -re irritated. For that reason rho
mother was direc:e,l by the surgeon not to come near it:
reomethet ease might °emir in city of the richest families
the country. WiJt regard to one particular fact men,
done,' by the 11,r. Geatl,mtr, that when the death of
the child occurred, no no'ice was given to the coroner;
great blame was, Ile doubt, attributable to the officers, but
he (Lord J. Russell) should say th t they had cr pro-
bably could have, no law by which they could prevent
eases, such as ill .t referred to, whereby great indignation
might he excited.- In a Report of Commissioners of In-
quiry, a case was stated by one of them who went down
to Bristol, and fatind in tint city a person that was for
several ye a-ss insane, confined in a dark room which was
never eleane 1. The person was in the most filthy state, and
for many years no person had attended to the manner in
which he was treatid. Now there were, no doubt, per-
sons very ntreh to blame for that treatment, but he (Lord
John Russell) would cot impute it to the Act of Eliza.
betle Thee seem cams which they ought to do their best
to prevent, but which, he thought, were far less
likely to occur -under the present than under the
former system. U h tender e former 'sestets) every .pa-
rish. hal a acp,rttc government, and if any abuse or act cf
0r:3.0%y took place it might perhaps be remedied; but it
might also lee totally unknown or forgotten. In the pre.;
sent system ,Ire-e v ere Poor-law Unions, and Guardians
of those Ur i ,t!S meeting from time to time, and if there
were subjects of complaint those complaints were men-
ti-ii .e fin all the -riewspepars of the day; representations
were trade of them to that Deuce. There were a certain
number of persons who thought these matters of complaint
to ba such not ng:ri,:st parish officers, but against the Com.

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