The Sun.
London, England, 1847-05-18 00:00:00

of ten months, thirteen months, fourteen months,
and eighteen months, and this was a state of things
was the conduct pursued
existing, and this
by men in the receipt of public money to the amount of
thirteen or fourteen hundred a year. Before he con-
cluded, he would say, that if the Government were to
attempt to enforce the powers of this poor-law, they
would have a rebellion in a week. They could not en=
force it against the rich, it was the poor alone whom
they soald so oppress. They should become the pro
tectors, instead of the oppressors of the poor, for there
did not exist a more loyal, a more patient, a more obe-
dient, a more industrious class upon the face of the globe.
And what they could have done to merit such treatment,
neither he nor any man could fathom. They had borne
their misery for thirteen years, let them depend
upon it the day of reckoning was at hand.
they had trampled upon them, they had deprived them
of their dbarest rights, and they could not now appeal to
them with that generous confidence which they could
have done before they inoculated the laws of England
with the accursed principles of Malthus. They would
have no right to appeal to them for allegiance when they
refused them protection. He would conclude by moving
that the Bill be read that day six months.
Mr. WAKLEY seconded the motion.
Mr. ROEBUCK—The Hon. Gentlemanmigehatsy
doto
much mischief and effect little good. It was very
talk about the 43d of Elizabeth, the tyranny of the Poor-
law Commissioners, and inalienable rights, withsouat
iutnedeevri:
standing anything of the three subjectala
dent the Hon. Gentleman had nevero tlhtew4a3dgof Eliza-
beth; he was quite ignorant of it much so that he would
lay anything that he had noteyse
Nothing
rreopened the pages of
was so easy as to
the Act that contained it.
rant about what one did not understand, and nothing so
easy to obtain popularity
by a sham affectation of a de-
votedness to the caul® of
the people. Now he should
ignorance
the Hon. Member, He would
prove that the
prove the.
4n3cdef
of Elizabeth had not been departed
from. In the time of Elizabeth the convents were put
down
; the Act to which he alluded sprung from the
suppression of these religious houses, for they had been in
the habit of maintaining a certain number of poor around
them. They came to the door of the monastery, and
they received relief proportioned to their wants ; and
they might talk as they liked about the Reformation, and
" no Popery," and all that sort of thing—they might do
very well le be let off as cannon against one another
—but they/0111d not controvert the fact of the immense
good ethich they conferred on the districts where they
were founded. However, after their suppression, a
number of sturdy beggars wandered over the country—
such are the words of the Act—and for these it was
necessary to provide. From hence sprung the 43d of
Elizabeth, which enacted that churchwardens should
ha appointed, whose duty it would be to set to work
such children as had been deserted by their parents, an
also all such persons as were maimed or infirm, or who
had no means to support themselves. They heard a
great deal of the rights of the poor, but what he desired
was the rights of the industrious poor against the l.ize
poor. These latter braved the authorities of the parish,
they came into the vestry, they demanded relief,
if
and
the
p :or farmer was frightened out of his wits,because,
he refused, his stacks were fired, his cattle werehb oughed„
T
and he himself stood in terror of his life. elocal
authorities were totally unable to deal with this growing
of
mischief ; they said, let us unite a number.,t 1.,
parishes, and let U 3 put the authority at a dis a..,e
from us. Let there be a central board in
London, to whom an appeal can be made. And now
what is the meaning r'- ell this talk about inalienable
right? He reneembere ' _.ceding a poem in his boyhood,
The Country Justice," he thought it was by Dyer, in
which these petty feeds were happily painted, fur the
poet described a woman lying-in in a cart, while two J
parishes were fighting almost which of them should re- I
ceive and maintain her.—(Hear, hear.) The advantage
of this law then was the central authority—it was what
all desired; but as Leon asihree men are selected, as so. n
as they enter Somerset house they are marked out, aed
there is not a traleg politician who does not point his
finger at them in reproach ; and then the Hon. Menah• r
cones forward and talks of the people of England, much
Vter the fashion of the three tailors in Tooley- street.
Depend upon it they would never have heard of these
evils were it not inr the appointor at of these three
Commissioners. With one or two e seeptions, those who
spoke so loud about the poor-law were those who were
most opposed to giving political rights. Some test was
absolutely necessary in order to enable a distinction to
be made between the idle and the industrious poor.
This test was found in the poor house test, an I
nothing was easier than to find persons who
were ready to find fault with this test, upon
all such popularity-hunting opponents of that
test he would put the stamp of canting hypocrites. It
was considered by the law that that man who was con-
tent to come to the poor-house and receive relief was a
man deserving of relief. Now, a great deal had been
said about the inalienable rights of the poor to relief
conferred on them by the 43d of Elizabeth. The 11,,n.
Member had quoted from Coke and Blackstone, but it
was his (Mr. Roebuck's) opinion that the Hon. Member
did net know which of those great writers first wrote
upon the subject. Now, what was the meaning of in-
alienable rights? If they were defined, as the Hon.
Member said, by an Act of Parliament, then those
rights could be altered or removed by another Act, and
the Act abolishing those inalienable rights would be the
law of the land, as well as that which conferred this
inalienable right. The inalienable right spoken of was
a right to relief, but a relief to be given only by labour.
It was his habit day after day to go into the habitations
of his poorer countrymen, and it was his firm opinios
that there were thousands of the people of this country
worse clad, worse fed, and worse housed than those who
were taken wider the protection of the poor-law, net-
with standing the Hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr.
Waldey) hurl ventured to call the poor-houses a den.
A poor man said that he was unable to support himself,
he came to the state exchequer, and was told that iF he
came into the poor-house his wants would be provided for.
But then came in the pathos of the novelist and the poet,
who said what a hardship it was to separate the wife
facen the husband and the children. Why, that was a
thing occurring every day in the life of the soldier anti
Vile sailor, and even the experience of Irish Members
evould add another chapter to the patriotic pathos of
-novelists, for in most cases they were compelled to
leave their wives and children in Ireland, but no Hon.
Members were in the habit of standing up in that House
and in a burst of patriotic enthusiasm calling public
attention to their distressing situation.—(Laughter.)
He was quite aware that this workhouse test was a very
unpopular terns, and then just at the close of the seventh
session of Parliament it was a very enticing subject to
lay hold of. He knew well the risk which attended the
course he was taking upon this subject, but as he had
commenced his political career so he inten-led to con-
ttnueit in spite of all opposition to the contrary. It
was s matter of absolute necessity that a test should be
provided for the able-bodied poor. Now, with respect
t) the Poor-law Commissioners, he must say with
regret that they had not acted according to the law.
They had quailed before another power. The Times
newspaper was the great point of all the opposition to
this n-asure, and the Honourable Member for Knares-
burough was but a faint shadow, a sot.: of will o'-
the-wisp, of that journal—(Laughter)—and every
thump upon that red box, every parenthesis, every
accent in the speech of the lion. Member was nothing
bet a bad imitation of the Times newspaper. The arti-
cles of the Times newspaper were, however, written by
a gentl.eman conversant with the subject upon which he
wrote, and acute enough to see that the Commissioners
were not acle.pted to carry out the provisions of a good
and wholesome law. And this was the real cause of the
bad working of the measure—the Government had
chosen persons to carry out the measure who were unfit
for the task. Then the 43d of Elizabeth stated that
work should he provided for the able-bodied poor; but
it had been said that bones were given to the paupers to
crush. New was there :eat in the different classes of
society many persons employed in trades and callings
which, if they were set to by the Commissioners, would
have raised such a storm as nothing could have crushed?
What was the trade of a nightman ?--(Laughter)—ur
the typo-founder, whose life was destroyed by the small
iron filings vvhich entered into his system,—or the
painter, afflicted as he was with disease consequent
upon the pursuit of his calling,—or the collier,
working many fathoms under ground in about
two feet of space, in obtaining the coals
which made the cheerful Christmas fire ? What were all
these but as different species of that labour which was
the common :lot of humanity, and by which man was to
obtain his liaelihood. Yet what a cry had been raised
about the ems loyment of the poor at Andover, while all
the great max s of the enjoyments of society in general
had been overlooked. Was it to be said for a moment
that the idle vagabond at the gate of the industrious man
should be entitl!ed to say " Give me of your substance, fur
you . are rich ?;'' The industrious man would have a
right to say "1 have a a ife and children, I support
my family honestly; and why should John Thomas, the
idle eaeabond,'' be entitled to claim my hard-earned
money?" But heew was this John Thomas, the idle
Taeabond, to be distinguished from John Smith, the in
dustrtous man? Why, what more natural, than to give
him work? Then. it had been said, they were set to
work in a shed, /Ten to all the windows of heaven. I
Not's% however, the buildings were well built and well
ventilated. Ah ! 'but, then, said the Hon. Member for
Finsbury, it was- a gaol, and the dress was a prison
could. say
much better dress, such as it was, was
sled muchdt wraarmer than the dress of the
honest man out of doors
a brown or grey colour and u;n-lf:lut because it was of
taioorm, then it was a prison
drees. Now what could be absurd than to have a
question depending upon the colourre or cut of a coat.
if. the colour had
For 50 this eveStion -really was, fur
would not be
been red and the drsss uniform, then
•callad a prison dress. But now the realit i
-whst was to be lone for the po.ir of ElgC4
la,eultP"T
.was-
jion. Members 'or Kneresborough and Finsbur-es, he
foe -ward some neasure upon the subject thecYlselZf
On 5, fancy a Bill drawn up by the lieu. Member for
Ts" ' here u -I) What would he (Mr. Roebuck) give to
seiusre3 • , e •
see esi Asst f,r the poor drawn op by the Hcn. Member
sh. If that Hon. Member would only be
that he had
for Keareelierou
kin I enough (floc there was . no d.oubt.
in him) to bring
self( spsrl: of k:n,lis- feeling
in se ell a measure, he (Air. Roebuck) would undertake
to rrste him and s Bill out of the d :or in a very . fee
minus se. A specimen of legislative confusion had arisen
lately in all the hurly burly of a Committee appointed
to ::tqnire into the Law of Sittlement.
Mk. F'. RORTHWICK—The law of settlement has nothing
steelo with the poor-law.
4lt. ROEBUCK—That was now one of the bad effects of
speaking on a subject upon which the person was unacquainted,
anct.Opit oposhness with which
:A .4nvsa isw •• ushed in where angels dared to tread."
es
,s.sse-ftl,, ing this, that he was speaking the senti-
,,..:,Z; :it. .. :of this country. The rational part of the
e-- • t al part of the labouring population, agreed
. . , •• ‘, - e` Or •t maintain the argument that men were
'•-• :.ssa .e WI pq lead, whether honest or dishonest ; for when
2
7. __„,,,,.,,,r,„„he might obtain relief—that he could de-
, iiisseeerlea et* OA or unabie to obtain work, he considered'
-: ' ''--.::
.1 S

that the glory of this country would depart; but when they
told him that it was the last resource of an honest ma.dn,inwhtehne
he was wholly unable to support himself, that it was! !sa
condition
a
were ns
e
season of need, and only on that occasion they would e
s
the lords of the human kind. But if a man
pP pP uu
itaotiseany;:h‘elyawske,nld and yon a
shallera craving, subservient, dignifiedninbssteeradvieonft,a
subjected
tai amongthis
poor, and not to give to
great measure of relief, to give to
lation—a miserable race of cringing slaves,caus instead of a race of
he believed it was
upright and honest men—(
the first duty of the nation maintain a
)
our people, and, therefore, he e
asked
bes
tuhcehthe them
a tocharacter
main
deservingn
the undeserving poor, that to which
law, had not had that stedf t
with the carrying out of the as ness
they were not entitled. Thoysefowrhtohehapdr hpietrheeretrorrb.eonergndoeunttroufsttheed
,of mind which was necessary
entrusted the° Noble I.
law ; and, therefore, r
ento :a matter which affectedto let no
personal feeling- enter
and to give them Sc)s vasta-
number of the industrious classes,
sion free from, and, consequently, above, all suspicion.
Mr. BANKES was rather surprised that the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman should treat the opinions of the Hon.
Member for Knaresborough (Mr. Ferrand), so lightly,
when he himself was no great authority upon pub-
lic matters of this kind; but when he taunted
the Hon. Gentleman wished not to bring in a Bill as expres-
sive of his views ; he merely repeated the taunt which the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government had thrown out
at the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the other night.—( A
laugh.) Tha only difference in the new Commission would be,
that it would be the same as of old, with the addition of more
honour to those who would comprise the body, inasmuch as its
members would have seats in that House ; but this must be
viewed in a constitutional light, and it was well to do so at the
outset. He feared the Noble Lord, who he admitted was op-
pressed by business, had not had time to look into this Bill
and into others which had been recently introduced with the
sanction of the Government. For instance, the Health
lof Towns Bill and other Bills, which would create
a number of new offices, bat the Health of Towns Bill had
been proved to be an useless measure, and that it would in-
terfere with private rights and private property, and the Noble
Lord bad not been able to dine with his constituents until he
had told them that the city of London would be exempted
from the operation of the Bill, and subsequently he had ex-
cluded other metropolitan districts.—( Hear, hear.) The new
Prison Bill, which was of this kind of measure, would create a
number of new officers who would supersede those who had
been entrusted with the government of the poor in their respec-
tive localities for many years.—(Hear, bear.) Swift in his
" Advice to Servants," said, " spend all your master's income,
because the more you cause him to spend, the more he will be
respected"—(Laughter)--and the Noble Lord seemed to act
upon this principle, and to get rid of any surplus
by creating new offices to spend it upon. Thus he had pre-
pared two new placemen in connexion with this Bill, shortly
after the proposition to appoint a new railway commission had
been submitted to the House.—(Hear.) He (Mr. Bankes)
had always considered that the body which had the manage-
ment of the poor should be represented by one member of the
body in that House; but do not let two of the present body
be so elevated, because the nation was dissatisfied with them.
L
Why not have two of the Lords of the Treasury, two of the
of the Admiralty, or two of the Board of Ordnance?—
(Laughter.) He could not, therefore, for9sese reasons sup-
port the Bill. He objected to the making of laws by the
Commissioners, in their own chambers, and considered that
the Ecclesiastical: Commissioners had failed to give satisfaction
in this respect, notwithstanding the Attorney. General had
quoted that body as an instance of success in the forming of
general rules. He saw no reason, therefore, why any
alteration in the laws relating to the poor should not
come under the revision of the House.—(Hear, hear.)
He did not think it would be even approved of in this House
to make measures without due consideration of the circum-
stances of these measures. The great benefit of this measure,
asserted by the advocates of the measure was, that it would
unite all classes; but the present law, did not effect
that object. The petition he presented was in conformity
with these views. If they persisted they would render the
measure most unpopular. He would propose the second read-
ing of the Bill.
Sir G. GREY said that he would trouble the House
with a few observations on what had fallen from the Hon.
Gentleman. The Hon. Gentleman said that his greatest
difficulty was founded on the amount of new patronage which
this Bill bestowed on the Government. His patriotism had
drawn him away from the sanatory considerations attached to
the Bill. But he could assure the Hon. Member
that the patronage of the Crown would, in a pe-
cuniary, as well as official point of view, be dimi -
nished instead of any thing else, for several offices which
had before existed, were now abolished, and of this he was
anxious to inform the Hon. Member, in order to allay his
anxieties ; because he seemed to think that we had better go
on with filth and fever, rather than create a few new officers,
who are to inspect the health of towns. The same objec-
tions, however, did not extend to the Prisons' Bill. Bat
he was surprised that the Hon. Gentleman did not support
the measure, seeing so few points of difference existed between
them. He (Mr. Bankes) supported the Act of 1834. He
was also in favour of a central authority, and considered that
they should be represented in that House. Holding such
opinions, he was surprised that he had not voted for the Govern-
ment, instead of for the Member for Knaresborough.—
( Hear, hear.) Her Majesty's Government had come
to the opinion that it was better to have a responsible body re.
presented in that House, than have them suffer from the im-
perfect vindication' of the officers of the Crown. They were
also told that it was too late in the session to intro-
duce such a Bill. He was very happy to hear that it
was late in the session ; but he would ask, looking back on the
mode in which the last three months had been spent, was
it possible that it could have been introducedearlier ? however,
the Hoe. Gentleman had told them to withdraw the Bill, and
that there was plenty of time to introduce another.—(Hear,
hear.) But whether it be late or early his Noble Friend near
him, had stated in the early part of the session, the principles
on which the measure had been founded, so that there had
been plenty of time for consideration.
Colonel SIBTHORP said that if the Hon. Member for
Knaresborough divided the House upon his amendment, be
would be very happy to vote with him. The Bill did nothing
more than change the names of parties, and they had ne inti-
mation of what was to be the salary of the president or in-
spectors—whom he would rather call spies—nor even
of their number. When once a Bill received the
second reading in that House, it might be considered as
booked—(Laughter.) A few Members attended the Committee
This was known to every Member, even of one year's standing
in the House; he, therefore, protested against the Bill, which
was one got up at the latter end of the session ; it was an ad
captanduin measure, such as was the Health of Towns Bill, for
the Government only desired to have the people say--
" See what luminous fellows we are."—(Loud laughter.)
He had seen so many strange things go on—( Laughter)—that
he believed Government patronage was only intended for the
purpose of giving rise to a host of needy expectations—
(Laughter.) He (Colonel Sibthorp) knew a good deal of life
—(Great laughter)—he heard out of doors a great deal of hard
times, and a scarcity of money, and, as an Hon. Friend re-
minded him, of Exchequer bills at a discount.—(Hear, hear. )
And they were to have a Commissioner. Was he a guardian
to sit down with a fellow—a Government inspector or spy—
( Great laughter)—who came down to see what they did—
( Roars of laughter)—a fellow who would talk to him—
(Laughter)—and say, " I'm your inspector. If you disobey
me, woe betide you." Me! what a fellow, sent down in
Government pay—a fellow dressed in Government livery.—
(Roars of laughter.) He (Colonel Sibthorp) had a sort of
honest pride—(Hear, hear)—that as a poor.law guardian,
and as a Member of that House, he was above the
fellows that Government might send down to
rule them. He considered that the Bill which
the Government now attempted to bring before them, was
another of a piece with the Health of Towns Bill, which
exempted London and St. Giles's, and Marylebone ; but the•
Noble Lord at the head of the Government told them that to
touch on London was dangerous ground.—(Laughter.) The
Ministry dined there—(Continued laughter)—and therefore
the city of London was holy ground. He should support the
motion of his Hon. Fr:end Mr. Ferrand, because he was one
of tli ee persons much wanted in that House. He was an
honest man.

Mr. CHRISTIE moved the adjournment of the debate,
which was agreed to.

LOAN DISCOUNT BILL.
Mr. SPOONER wished to know when the Government
were prepared to take the Loan Discount Bill for the third
reading.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER proposed to
take it for Thursday next.
Mr. WAK LEY said that the country expected a very
different poor-law from that which had been introduced, and
he thought, therefore, that time should kbe given for an
expression of feeling upon the subject. He considered that
the Loan Discount Bill should be taken first, and the Poor-law
Bill afterwards.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that with regard to the Loan
Discount Bill, it was desirable to get it through the House
before the Whitsun holidays. He believed that no opposition
was offered to the Bill on principle, however much might be
objected to it in detail, and he should therefore wish to
take it as early as possible.
SCOTCH REGISTRATION BILL.

In answer to a question from Mr. Oswald relative to the
Registration (Scotland) Bill.
The LORD ADVOCATE said that the Bill would be
brought forward at an early period.
Mr. LOCKHART regretted that in accordance with the
universally expressed opinion of the Scottish people, the Bill
was not given up altogether.
Mr. FOX MAULE trusted it would not be given up, be-
cause when he recollected the Prisons Bill, which he had him-
self! introduced, he feared that the only objection which existed
was on account of a little expense.
Mr. FORBES said that great opposition was manifested to
the measure in the county which he represented.
Mr. F. MACKENZIE regretted that it was the intention
of , Hon. Gentlemen opposite to go on with the Bill.
He would not deny that the present system of legislation in
Scotland was imperfect, but he did maintain that a far less eom-
bersome, and a far less expensive system could be dis-
covered. He should, therefore, move that this Bill
be committed that day six months.
The galleries were then cleared for a division, but none took
place, and, on our return to the gallery, we found
Mr. C. BRUCE; protesting against the principle of the Bill
as it at present stood. He thought this Bill had been brought
out at an unseasonable hour, and the further discussion upon
it ought, therefore, to be postponed.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he would consent to take the dis-
cussion upon the Bill on the 31st of May, if there was—time
for 'doing so, after disposing of the Irish Poor-law, which
would then have come down from the Lords. Should it
happen there would not be time, he would propose to take the
discussion on Monday following.
Mr. FORBES MACKENZIE was glad the Noble Lord
had made that concession, because it afforded a sufficient in-
ducement for him to withdraw his amendment.
The Bill then went through Committee.
The Burgage Tenure (Scotland) Bill and the Crown Char-
ters (Scotland) Bill went through Committee.
The Drainage of Lands Bill was postponed till Friday.
SEDUCTION AND PROSTITUTION SUPPRES-

SION BILL.

Mr. SPOONER moved that this Bill be read a first time.

witiVr.atCtb.:lßlEatHeKlloEull:Ec:flitir/ebineiegtdl:toanidheipitlhl
the Hon. Membergnproceeded
versisted in his motion, he would move as an amendment that
the 'House do now adjourn.
Colonel SIBTHORP suggested to his Noble Friend op-
Irtruec, ttotfhae
clause
et
in
nf
Ithbee
Health
lltmh igofhtTobwe attained Towns
B il
lby the in -
The House then
.di ......... when .... n...u7...b....r...5......:
....
the amendment .
against ....... 7
it"ellial,l:eel;tafter, on the Another divisaCttOok
iat this debate be now adjourned.
Far the amendment
...
nonAgai ..
................................. 5851
.....
..
Majority
—nst it
fo 1
When we were admitted we found .
Colonel SIBTHORP addressing the
House. He asked
what hindered the chief officers of
.the City of London from
sweeping out the soilAcatn,dthiempHuereityth forfomTowthnes, mßeiltlro: Ponlis.e
What aided that great
e_
übmtetpubrye.a
cHlaensesugingetbsteedHtebalattilitef
City
object o
He thought it would be ,
better in the hands of
d that the Bill should be read this
the Government.
nifustthibseßlilul pure—nn
doubt
day six months.
Towns' Bill.
On the question,
He move