The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-17 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY MORNING, FEBRUARY 11, 1t347.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 16.
Their Lordships assembled shortly after Five o'clock.
•
CROWN LANDS IN ROSCOMMON.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH brought forwardnlands a
his
t
motion with respect to returns relating to G
Killglass, Roscommon, which he postponed li,soitw ghntighhatveunatnil
this evening, in order that the Government
opportunity of ascertaining whether the returns could be fur-
nished or not.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNElassatidnihgeht, hadandmafdoeunthdethina-t
in-
quiries which he promised to m
there would be no objection
tofurnish the returns, with the
reference to pending suits.
exception of those which had
ItooiL
INFLUX OF IRISH POOR lNTOLolr're' L
the l'
notice
eteha of
t
Earl FITZWILLIA. I wished to
which bring
before
had received
their Lordships some information
day, respecting the great influx of Irish paupers into Liverpool.
lie had received that day a Manchester paper, in which there was
a long and very able account of the way in which they came to
Liverpool, and what was done for them when they arrived there.
It appeared that into the town of Liverpool there were be-
tween 23,000 and 24,000 immigrants. This great in-
flux induced people who were interested in the ques-
tion to institute an inquiry, and one of the first
effects that followed was a considerable diminution
in the number of the persons who were relieved. In addition
to that, the Assistant Poor-law Commissioner had
been directing his attention to the influx of Irish
paupers into Liverpool. He found that the arrivals were,
of men 4,419, of women 1,755. and of children 1,150
within a given period. The relief afforded was to
men 2,000, women 2,811, children 1,150, and there was an
increase of 8,814 relieved, though the number of immigrants
was decreased. It was quite clear, from that circumstance, that
the number of persons relieved was not occasioned solely by the
number of immigrants. There was a large number relieved on a
Monday in February. It was 22,348—and how many were
relieved on the Tuesday following?—why 4,906. That was
entirely in consequence of the active measures that had
been taken to ascertain who were entitled to be
relieved. Other circumstances were connected with this
question. They had heard of the great immigration into
Liverpool. They had heard also of 4,000 ejectments in Mayo.
The inference that would be drawn from this was, that the
influx of immigrants and the ejectments in Maya had some-
thing to do with one another. That had been an erroneous con-
clusion, drawn by persons who ought not to have arrived at those
positive conclusions, without having instituted a more rigid in-
quiry. He thought the decrease that had followed in the number of
persons relieved upon the inquiry that had been made showed
clearly that it was not owing to the cause here assigned.
The Earl of LUCAN rose to offer a few observations, in
consequence of certain charges that had been made. He could
tell the Noble Lord opposite, that in Tyrawley, one of the
wealthiest baronies in Ireland, the tenants actually kept posses.
sion, and would not permit the landlords to enter their dwellings.
He intended last night to have replied to the attacks that had
been made upon him, but was prevented from doing so. He
knew it to be the practice of that House—and it used to be the
practice formerly in the House of Commons—that the
person who was to be the subject of an attack
should have previous intimation of it, or should have
an opportunity of defending himself, but no such courtesy had
been extended to him, but, on the contrary, the greatest dis-
courtesy—a discourtesy which, perhaps, was more con-
genial to the taste and habits of a certain Noble Lord,
who had thought it right to make the attack upon
him. It had been stated that an indictment would
be preferred against him in consequence of the course he
had thought proper to adopt, but that would not deter him now
from defending his conduct. He had been charged with three
distinct charges—first, that he was a defaulter in not paying
his poor-rates ; secondly, that he shut up the workhouse ; and
thirdly, that he re used to strike a rate. With respect to the
first charge all he had to say was, that he not been absent a
single day from the sittings of the board, for a very long
period ; and he never recollected being charged with a single
instance of non-payment of rates. There were one hundred
distress warrants for rates in the town of Castlebar, issued at
his instance, and the instructions to the rate-
collector had beer, initiated by him. When he understood
that certain papers were to be laid on the table of the House
he hastened down to the Home-office, and protested against
Sir George Grey laying his letter before the House, but the
Right Hon. Baronet would not accede to his request. He
would now read the letter for their Lordships. ( The Noble
Earl then read the letter he had written to the Board of Works.)
His Lordship, in reading this letter, laid especial stress on
those names which, with his own, had been coupled with the
charge, and of which he had said in that letter, Ido not
believe one farthing to be due from them." He begged their
Lordships attention to this, and wished to know bow any
gentleman could have given a more positive denial to the
imputed facts than that which Ise had just read;
but yet the public prints, in alluding to it, had repre-
sented it as rather an escape than a positive and honest
contradiction of the charge.• ( His Lordship then con-
cluded the remaining part of the letter.) He then added that
he was not satisfied with having written that letter,
but he had desired the rate-collectors to furnish him
with the names of all the tenements of which
he was the lessor, and the statement whether he
was liable or not for rates on any of them. He
found that the total amount of rate on property in his hand
was but 601., and there was about 451. on property leased by
other tenants, but that was not its his owe hand, and
he was not liable for it. There was some 101. or
14/. more which he confessed he could not ac-
count for. There was property of his which at present
was in beneficial occupation by another, the rate on which
amounted to some 10/. or 141., and he was' quite
. rtecertadin that
not a half, not a third, of that
amount remainued u
was sure their Lordships would recollect his
situation as a
landlord, that he was himself a large occupier of land and of
farms to a great extent, but on all the property
which remained in his own occupation there
had not been say rates due for months and
months past. He begged distincly to be understood that
he took this opportunity of positively stating that there was not
a farthing due on the property in his own occupation, as he
himself well knew, having personally inspected the
rate-books of the board of guardians. The next
charge which had been made against him was
the shutting of the Castlebar union workhouse. He said the
circumstances were these : he went over to Ireland about the
close of last session and attended a board of guardians.
He was present at a meeting of his tenants, where
he was requested to come over to her Majesty's
Minister and to represent the state of the couniry.
On the Bch September he had returned to Ireland, and at-
tended a board of guardians, when he was told that all the
contracts for the house were expired, that no tenders had been
mrde, and that there was no chance of any tenders being made
as there was not a farthing with which to pay. A
conversation ensued, representing the difficulties of the position
in which they were placed, when something was said about
shutting up the house, and he said in reply that he would ease
them of their difficulties, and keep the house for them.
That occurred on the 20th qf September. As to what
had been said about applicants for relief having been turned
away, or having received inadequate relief, he was certain
that no such occurrence had taken place, neither had any one
been turned away, nor had any one been sent away with in-
adequate relief, and that was said by those who had been
present at every meeting of the board of guardians since 1840.
Now the real facts of the case were, that although the house
was capable of accommodating 600 persons, until this famine
the outside number that had ever been receives! was 170.
And this was not the case at Castlebar only, but
at all the other houses the same rule had prevailed.
He :remembered, that by the return which had
been made of the several houses in Ireland, in which the houses
in Dublin were conjoined, the actual number received was not
more than from seventy to a hundred. On the 58th September
the guardians at Castlebar had made contracts which were to
go until the 24th October. This went on till that day, when it
was found that the amount that remained unpaid was on-
wards of 1,2001 The rates, it was true, ought to have been
collected, and if they were not so, it was the fault of the col-
lector and nobody else; and had it not been that he(Lord Lu-
can) had kept them, the poor could not have been sustained.
There was a debt due to the treasurer, and it was evident that
if 500/. or even 300/. was collected, it was necessary to pay
that amount to the treasurer. They had no opportunity
whatever of stopping;the money in transitu. Thus matters went
on till the 24th of October, and the only chance they had was
to get in the money from the rates to prevent the people
from throwing their children on the parish. On that day there
was a resolution come to, that unless the Government would
step in and grant relief, or the Commissioners would put them ,
in the way of obtaining the means, it would be utterly impos-
sible to grant admission to any more poor ; and had it nut
been for him the house during the last four weeks would not
have been kept at all. This resolution was moved 1;7 Mr.
Finch, and seconded by Dr. Dillon, and it stated that had it
not been for the contributions from the Earl of Lucan that the
house must have been closed, and that, in the present
circumstances, it was absolutely necessary to refuse admission
to any more paupers, although more than forty applications had
been made that day. It stated also that the debts were over
4,000/., and that unless the treasurer advanced money, which
he had refused to do, there could be no maintenance for the
poor, however desperate the cases, and that unless the Govern-
ment assisted them in some way or other, either
by a grant or in some other way, the house must
be closed altogether. It was difficult
to make the people
of England understand the state of Ireland. It should
be recollected that it was like a house on fire.
Mr. Otway, the Assistant Poor-law Commissioner, suggested to
him that a rate should be struck fhotl hd be
the of the poor, and
s
that the doors of the workhouse
ocpexiclufootr
havetheir ad..
been
mission. But if a rate had been struck, it o
collected, as in England, the day after; a'month at least
have intervened before they could have been in a condition
collect it, and even the collecting of it was fraught with dift-
culty, owing to the sub-divisions of the land, and the difficulty
of discovering the real persons on whom it should be levied.
Nothing could have been more ridiculous than striking a rate
because the people were In want of immediate relief. He (Lord
Lucan) told Mr. Otway that he was in favour of opening the
house, bet as there were no funds to provide relief for
them in the house;-- and as it was a question of
starvation within, as . well as without the house,
he thought it advisable not to open the doors of the workhouse
under such eircumstancesS' , It would have been useless striking
a new rate whilst the old rate remained outstanding. It was
more advisable, before striking a new rate, to collect what re •
seamed unpaid of the old one. The Noble Lord (Lord Dun-
can) seemed in favour of a paid board; he could not divine his
reason, except that be was desirous to be its paid chairman, or
to hold some other paid office in connexion with it. One was
scarcely prepared to be lectured by a Scotchman (Lord Duncan)
on the subject of dispensing relief to the distressed poor of
Ireland. He certainly could not possees much knowledge of
workhouses from experience, in his own country, as he (Lord
Lucan) did not believe that there was such a thiag as a work-
house
in Scotland. He recommended to that Noble
Lord's attention, some voluminous blue books, which
were more voluminous than those published with
respect to Ireland, and which treated of the condition and
relief of the poor of Scotland. He would there find much to
reproach his country with—details of the niggard relief dis-
pen. sea to-Me poor; in some cases such wretched sums as 3s. or
-VheaileZ'reowt ere given to one family in the course of that time.
landlords, heehtenen spoke sincerely on the conduct of Irish
He did not though he was justified in retorting in this way.
misdirected • k that the remarks—the splenetic and
remark,Lord— of the Members for Bath (Mr.
Roebuck and
favour from their Duncan) would meet with much
constituents at the next elect ion
There was, no doubt, to condemn ; but at the same
time much allowance winastToh made. He could state that
the proprietors of Ireland weree making every sacrifice they
could, arid they were using every endeavour in their power to
Government to alleviate the
co-operate with her Majesty's
without saying that
existing distress. He could not conclu.
he much lamented the tone and languagecountry, because he
that had been used
towards Ireland and the people of that •
must candidly say it was ealeulated to create hostile f
towards Ireland. When all the subjects of then pre„ t d'ee
Ing
n
lion had passed away, there would be fee.ling of envy, enmity,
and detestation engendered in the minds of the people of
Ireland.
Earl GREY could not but regret that allusion had beers
made to what had taken place in the other House, as it was cal-
culated to lower the character of Parliament. Having heard
the observations of the Noble Earl opposite, he felt it to be
his ditty to rise for the purpose of stating, which de did sin-
cerely, that the censures which he had so unsparingly lavished
were altogether unjust. The Noble Earl had spoken of
Mr. Otway, Assistant Poor-law Commissioner, in very un-
measured terms. lie accused hint of having brought charges

against him (Lord Lucan) which were unfounded. He
(Earl Grey) must say, that he had read all the papers relat-
ing to the subject, and he had heard the speech of the i
Noble Earl, and he was bound to say, that his honest and
sincere opinion was that Mr. Otway's censure on the board of
guardians of the Castlebar Union was in no way more
severe than the circumstances justified. He had no doubt
that the Noble Earl, in the steps he had taken with respect to
this subject, was actuated by a desire to do his duty towards
Ireland; but the Noble Earl's own statement showed that the
gravest censure rested upon the guardians of the Castlebar
Union ; and here, he begged to observe, that Mr. Otway's
censure was not of the Noble Earl, but of the board
of guardians of the Castlebar Union. There were
two or three facts which showed that the censure
of Mr. Otway, and the subsequent suspension of
the guardians of the Castlebar Union, were called for.
In a period of the most harrowing distress they would not ad-
mit the paupers, though the workhouse contained a much
smaller number than it was intended for, and even to those who
were admitted into the house the most scandalous usage was
given. It was alleged in defence that they were unable to
raise the necessary funds ; but before admitting that plea, it
was necessary to prove that due efforts had been made to raise
these funds. But even the Noble Earl himself had told them
that some of the arrears were due by solvent persons, and that
they might, if due diligence had been used, been collected.
The board of guardians ought to have taken care that the rate
was properly and duly collected. But why, he would ask, was
no rate struck? Remonstrances had been made over and over
again to have a new one struck, but nothing whatever was
done. The ground alleged was this : a great part of the old
one still remained uncollected. But every one was aware, that
had any experience of the working of these matters, that the
heavier the rate the more difficult it was of collection. In the
last years of great distress in this country—in 1841 and 1842
there was great difficulty in collecting the rates, but that was
never put forward as a reason for refusing to strike a rate
altogether. Only two rates had been struck since the Castle-
bar Union was opened—one in August, 1842, and the other in
July, 1845. The amount of the first was 1,C611., and of the
last, 3,362/. ; and it was to be observed, that it was
with the greatest possible difficulty the last had been struck.
He said their Lordships would perceive, from the documents
which he had just read, that this union, which was large, and
included a great amount of property, belonging to the wealthy;
that during the years 1815 and 1846, the years in which very
great distress existed in Ireland, only one rate had been struck,
and that rate only slightly exceeded 3,000/. He hoped their
Lordships would compare this with the efforts which had been
made during the years 1840 and 1841 by the small town of
Stockport, and by that town which he had the honour of repre-
senting in the other House of Parliament—he meant Sunder-
land. Why, what was the rate at which the inhabitants of
these towns were paying the poor-rates? They were paying
twenty shillings in the pound • but how much were they pay-
ing in the pound in the Castlebar Union? Why, he believed it
was not much more than three shillings, and that small rate
had only been once made during the course of 18 months in
that union, and even that rate, by the admission of the
Noble Earl (Lucan) had not been effectively collected. Their
Lordships would understand and consider whether the lan-
guage used by Mr. Otway concerning this union was a whit
too severe. But the Noble Earl had thought proper to blame
the Government, because the Government had not come for-
ward in the case of this union and repelled the facts which he
had just read to them. He would leave their Lordships to
judge of this after hearing the documents themselves. He was
of opinion, that if the Government had done that, they would
have conferred direct encouragement on those boards of guar-
dians who were so disinclined to do their duty, and a discou-
ragement to all those boards who, by some means or other,
managed to raise enough to support their expenses, and to
keep their houses full ; if Government had done so, it would
have been conferring a direct premium on all such conduct as
had been just represented to their Lordships. Mr. Otway, he
believed, did no more than his duty in writing to the Poor-
law Commissioners as he did, and if he had not done so in such
a case as that of the Castlebar Union, he would not have
done his duty. He (Earl Grey) said he could not
refrain from shortly commenting on an expression which had
fallen from the Noble Earl near him ( Earl Fitswilliara). He
had not heard the Noble Earl commence his speech, but he had
heard him comment on the number of legal processes which
had been issued in the west of Ireland, and he had said that
there was a close connexion between these processes and immi-
gration into England. He (Earl Grey) believed there was a
very close connexion between these processes and the immi-
gration; he believed that a very large number of persons against
whom processes had been issued had collected together the
few effects which they had remaining, had sold them at what
they would realise, and before these processes were perfect, had
left the town of Mayo for the shores of Liverpool. The Noble
Earl (Earl ihtzwilliam) had said that these statements had
been made with the intention to indispose the public mind of
the people of England against the Irish people, and to do justice
to Ireland. Now, on his (Earl Grey's) part, and on the part of
his Noble Friend, a very near relation of his, he must
say, that did he not believe that statement to have been made
by the Noble Earl inadvertently, he would have commented on
the expression with no small degree of indignation. But it
should be recollected that these gentlemen were responsible
to Government, and those who were also responsible for the ad-
ministration of the government of this country. The Noble
Earl had stated that the Government and those connected
with it during the course of those discussions had made use of
language which called in question the conduct of the landlords
of Ireland. He much regretted this statement ; but if his
Noble Friends had read the papers which had been presented
to Parliament—if they had read the blue book which be held
in his hands—if they had read the report made to the Board
of Works—if they would take the trouble of reading those few
volumes, they would know that neglect of Irish interests was
not one of the faults of the Government. (Hear,
hear.) He was quite sure, that under the circumstances in
which they were placed, the Irish landlords would exonerate
the Government from the censures cast upon them. But. he
would counsel the Irish landlords to hear the truth. However
disagreeable the truth might be, yet they had better hear the
troth now than some months or years hence, When it would be
1 perf-ctly useless. It was plainly evident that Ireland could not
remain in the same situation as she was now—dependent on the
assistance of England. The Irish people must help themselves,
they must put forth their powers, they must exert their energies,
they must rise their powers to get out of this state of doubt,
difficulty, and uncertainty. They must not depend on this
country, for however strong any Government might be—and
he did not care at all of what men it might be composed—he
was quite sure that public opinion on this subject would be too
strong for it, and this system must cease. He did not wish to
make any attack on the landlords of Ireland, but whether there
had been a want of experience, or from what cause it might be
he could not say, but from some reason or other there had been
a failure on the part of the landlords of het Ind. That was the
truth, of the accuracy of which he was painfully convinced,
and, being convinced, he thought it was his duty to enunciate it.
But at the same time he appealed to their Lordships—he ap-
pealed to those who had watched the progress of the debates ,
in either House of Parliament--whether in either House any
member of her Majesty's Government had 11/7 ed one word of
censure towards Ireland without reluctance, and without ex-
pressing their deep regret at being compelled to use it—
whether they had not gone as far as their truth and conscience
would allow them, in upholding the right of Ireland to be relieved
in such an emergency as the present ; and whether they had
not gone as far as their duty to the empire at large would
permit them, in asking Parliament to be liberal and most
generous at such a period,—( Hear. )
Lord MONTEAGLE said, his Noble Friend (Earl Grey)
had not said anything in the course of his address at all calcu-
lated to relieve the Noble and Gallant Officer opposite (Lord
Lumen) from one of the most cruel and unjust charges
—whether contained in a blue book, or in proceedings
elsewhere—that it had ever been his lot to find directed
against any individual ; and the Noble and Gallant Officer
would be less than a man if he had submitted to be held up to
public obloquy and not come forward to vindicate himself in
the only just and legitimate way that was open to him. He
agreed with his Noble Friend (Earl Grey) that great incon-
venience resulted from the Members of one House referring to
the debates in the other ; and when he had been exposed to
animadversions in the other House of Parliament he had
strictly adhered to this rule until the other night, when he
made some reference to what had been said respecting him ;
but if this usage was to be adhered to, it was requisite, when
charges were to be made against a Noble Lord a Member of
that House, that notice should be given to him, in order that
he might be prepared to offer a defence; but if he were
put upon Isis trial without having this opportanity offered to him, Mr. HUME gave notice thatSINDE he. would call the attention of
this usage could not be maintained, and the person so attacked the House to the present state of Sinde on this day fortnight.
had a perfect right to reply to imputations cast upon him, IMPORTATION OF FOREIGN PROVISIONS.
though they were made in the other House of Parliament. Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD gave notice that in Com-
The Noble Lord had been held up to obloquy because he and rnittee on the Navy Estimates he should move that an humble
the other guardians were unable to collect the rates ; but when address be presented to the Queen, praying that all the ships_
he found this was the c ise, he came forward and, out of his of-war that were at present unemployed in the naval service of
private resources, supported, and still supported, the persons the country should be placed at the disposal of the merchants
who in that local ty stood in need of relief. Unfortunately, in for the importation of provisions, the produce of foreign
this country such instances were rare, but the occasions which countries, into the United Kingdom.
made them necessary, it must be admitted, were also rare. GREECE.
The answer of the Noble Earl to the charge of non-payment Lord JOHN MANNERS gave notice that, on Thursday,
of the rate was, to his (Lord Monteagle's) mind, most satin- the 25th instant, he would call the attention of the House to
factory, as there was not a single rate due on his property, the state of Greece.
some of the rates charged against his property not COMPENSATION FROM RAILWAY ACCIDENTS.
having been due by him,. But the Noble Earl Colonel SIBTHORP gave notice that in Committee on the
had also stated that he had directed the issue of 100 wee Railway Bill he would move the insertion of a clause com-
tress warrants against defaulters in the payment of the rates, Pelting railway companies to give compensation for personal
and he ( Lord Monteagle) would ask, was it not the most unpa- injuries that may he sustained on railways, as also compen-
ralleled folly, and would it not be the greatest audacity for any sation to the widows and orphans of those who may have lost
one to make such a statement if he himself were a defaulter ? their lives by such accidents.
(Hear, hear.) It had been said that the shield of the Govern- HOUSE OF KEYS.
ment was extended over the Irish proprietors in these reports. Dr. BOWRING moved for copies of memorials presented
He did not want such a shield to be extended over them, and to the Government, with correspondence, or extracts of cor-
he denied that the Government officials were warranted in respondence, on the subject of the reform of the House of
making the statements they did against the Irish landlords. Keys (in continuation cf the return of the last session).—
He thought it was wrong in the Government to publish the Agreed to.
statements which were to be found in the blue book laid on the IRISH MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS.
table of the House, for there could be nothing more
Captain LAYARD gave notice that, on Thursday next, he
unfounded than many of them. What, for instance, could be would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ire-
more calumnious than to state that certain magistrates had
hounded on the people to assassination ? Such a gross in-
justice, land when it was the intention of her Majesty's Government
such an unparalleled and unprecedented a statement, to bring forward the Irish Municipal Corporation Act.
SUNDAY a 'lp'
oRt Ai t
iIoNn
had never been made in any former blue book presentedtoth - Lord LINCOLN
S.
from Falkirk, stating
House.
Another charge was made, that a certain clergyman that the stoppin of th •
trains on the Edinburgh and Glasgow
in the county Mayo was a firebrand. Now, this was a charge
Railway on the gSabbateh was a great grievance to the poor, and
which, he contended, never should have been made in these Praeing that the House
books. Certain statements had been also made with respect to in connexion with that com awould. not pass any 81.1
Father Mathew, which, he thought, would have been better vision to prevent the cessation noir
trains on that day.
had they been omitted. He thought that the Noble Earl had POOR REMOVAL BILL.
fully acquitted himself of the charges made against him. Mr. HENLEY presented a petition complaining of the
After a few words from the Marquis of WESTMEATH in operation of this Bill.
defence of the Irish landlords, the subject dropped. POOR-LAWS (IRELAND).
FIRE AT ST. JOHN'S, NEWFO NDLAND. Mr. POULETT SCROPE wished to put a question to the
Lord PORTMAN moved for copies, or extracts of corres• Secretary of State with reference to the existing state of the
pondence between the Secretary of State and the Governor of law relative to the legal obligations of poor-law guardians. He
Newfoundland on the subject of the fire at St. John's, and the did not mean to bring any charge against the r the
measures adopted for the relief of the sufferers ; and also copies Castlebar union, though he did consider that itdians waso fvery
or extracts of correspondence between the Secretary of State desirable that the House should inquire into their conduct in
for the Home Department and the committee for raising sub- order to ascertain whether they or the Poor-law Commis-
scriptions for the relief of the distress occasioned by the same sioners were in fault. It was necessary to state to the house
fire. His object in making the motion was to allay an impress that the Castlebar board of guardians had closed the doors of
sion that existed in some parts of England, that only one-half h toeir workhouse against the destitute poor; he would, there-
of the money collected under the Queen's letter had been ap- fore, put the following questions:— Whether there is at present,
propriated to the purpose for which it had been subscribed, and, if so, what legal obligation or responsibility upon boards of
and that the other half had been devoted to the building of guardians in Ireland, to relieve the destitute poor in their unions?
churches by the Bishop of Newfoundland. If there be, whether any proceedings, by indictment or other-
The Marquis of WEST3IEATH asked if it was the Pro- wise, are about to be instituted by direction of her Majesty's
testant Bishop. Government against the board of guardians of the Castlebar
Lord PORTMAN presumed that it was the Protestant union, for having for several months past denied relief to num-
Bishop. bers of poor, as to whose absolute destitution no doubt could
Earl GREY had no objection to produce the papers moved exist, closing the workhouse against them, although not half
for by the Noble Lord, and when they should be laid on the full ; whereby it has happened that very many of such desti-
table he would see that the money had been properly expended, bate poor persons have died of starvation, as the verdicts of nu-
PORTUGUESE OFFICERS. merous coroners' inquests held within the said union attest?
Lord BEAUMONT gave notice that, on Thursday next, If no effective legal responsibi sty or obligation to relieve the
he would put a question, to the Noble Lord the President of destitute rests at present on Irish boards of guardians, to ask
the Council respecting the officers of the insurgent army in whether her Majesty's Government de not intend to introducee
Portugal, who had lately: surrendered themselves at Torres some effectual obligation of this nature into the Poor Relief
Vedras to the forces of the Queen. (Ireland) Bill, whereby security shall be taken against such de-
MINIST E RS' MONEY. nial of relief to the destitute poor of Ireland of all classes in future?
Lord MONTEAGLE presented a petition from St. Sir GEORGE GREY said that the best answer he could
George's, Limerick, against Ministers' money. Also a give to the Hon. Gentleman would be to read the provisions of
petition from the town council of Limerick against light dues. the Act under which they were appointed. ( The Hon. Baronet
BREWING FROM SUGAR BILL AND DISTILLING then read the sections of the Act, the substance of which was,
FROM SUGAR BILL. that u hen once the Commissioners had declared a workhouse it
The Eartwof CLARENDON, in moving the second
reading for the reception of the destitute poor, the board of guardians
of these Bills, said that .
the first Bill had come on were at their discretion to admit such as they deemed proper
Thursday last, and thesecond had been just up• subjects to the approbation of the Commissioners. Their was
received,
but as they were ' • similar in their character and provisions, he a legal point raised as to the compulsory power vested
thought it would be expedient
together and read pro that they should be both taken in the Commissioners, over the guardians, and
should be take ./Z•niz,, and that the discussion on them he had only to observe that the Cenomiteioners had exercised
convenience, therefore, of Committee. To consult the : all their power ever the Castlebar guard! 4 Ds, GI the purpose of
abstain at present from entering into Lords Lips, he should i compelling them to abord relief. 1 heir trurts, however, were
sped to them ; but he might obser ve‘etYl statement with re- unavailing, and they were then about to dissolve thew as a
rat they would be an board by the power 3 vested in them wader the Act.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 16.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY (ISLE OF AX-
HOLME EXTENSION).
On the motion of Mr. B. DENISON this Bill was read a
second tine.
Sv. IVES (HUNTINGDON) IMPROVEMENT.
On the motion of Mr. GREENE, this Bill was read a
second time.

DUTY ON COPPER ORE.
Mr. NIUNTZ presented a petition from Birmingham com-
plaining of the present high rate of duty on copper ore, and
praying for its repeal.

- RAILWAYS (IRELAND) BILL.
Colonel CO.NNOLLY presented a petition from the magis-
trates of Kerry in favour of the measure for promoting rail-
ways in Ireland.

POOR REMOVAL.
Mr. BURROWEE's presented a petition from some place
(the name of which we could not catch) praying the House
to amend the existing Poor Removal Act.
DESTITUTE. PERSONS (IRELAND).
Mr. HAMILTON presented a petition from Tul!amore ob
jetting to the proposed system of out-door relief in the pro-
visions of the Bill for the Relief of Destitute Persons in
Ireland, recently brought before the attention of the House.
EMPLOYMENT OF HER MAJESTY'S NAVY.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD presented two petitions from Glas-
gow, praying the Government to employ her Majesty's navy
for the purpose of importing► provisions into the country.
ELECTORAL DIVISIONS (IRELAND).
Sir T. ESMONDE presented a petition from Enniscorthy,
praying the House to adopt some measure compelling the pay-
ment of poor.rates from the unions, instead of the electo-
ral divisions.

DEVELOPMENT OF FREE-TRADE PRINCIPLES.
Dr. BOWRING presented a petition from the inhabitants
of Bolton praying the House to adopt some measures calculated
to develop the principles of free trade to their utmost extent.
WASTE LANDS IMPROVEMENT BILL.
Mr. V. STUART presented a petition in favour of the
Waste Lands Improvement Bill.
TEN HOURS' BILL.
Mr. BROWN presented a petition, numerously signed by the
inhabitants of Liverpool, in favour of the Ten Hours' Bill.
RAILWAYS (IRELAND) BILL.
Sir B. H ALL presented a petition in favour of the measure
introduced by the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn, for faci-
litating the construction of railways in Ireland.
TEN HOURS' BILL.
Mr. WAK LEY presented a petition from Lancaster, signed
by Dr. Fletcher, in favour of the Ten Hours' Bill. Also a
petition, signed by ninety workmen in the employ of Messrs.
Barnes and Son, of Rochdale, in favour of the Ten Hours' Bill.
LIGHT DUES.
Mr. FOSTER presented a petition from the shipowners
of King's Lynn, praying for the abolition of the light dues.
RAILWAYS (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL presented a petition (on behalf of
the Hon. and Learned Member for Cork), signed by several
noblemen, Members of Parliament, landowners, and gentry of
Ireland, in favour of the Bill for facilitating the making of rail-
ways in that country.
REDUCTION OF THE DUTY ON TEA.
The HoN. MEMBER also presented a petition from the in-
' habitants of Kilkenny, praying for a reduction of the duty
on tua.

MINISTERS' MONEY.
The HON. AIEstIER also presented petitions, signed by
upwards of 17,000 persons, praying for the abolition of the
impost of ministers' money.
REPEAL OF TIDE UNION.
The Hoff. Maxima also presented a petition from the Mayor
and Corporation of Wa'erford, praying for a repeal of the union.
ISLES OF ARRAN.
I The HoN. illEstafea also presented a petition, signed by the
Rev. Patrick Harvey, of Galway, stating that the Isles of Arran
had receutly been formed into a distinct barony, but that no
baronial sessions had been held for that barony, and praying
the House to cause baronial sessions to be held for that barony.
SUPPLY OF FOOD FOR IRELAND.
The same HoN. Alaariait all') presented a petition from
Dublin, signed by 11 peers, 3 high-sheriffs, 28 deputy-lieuten-
ants, 40 magistrates, and a number of other gentlemen, praying
the House to adopt some measures calculated to ensure a speedy
supply of provisions for the people of Ireland.
Mr. COLLETT presented a petition from Athlone, also
praying the House to adopt some measures to feed the people
of Ireland.

TEN HOURS' BILL.
Mr. TUFNELL presented a petition in favour of the Ten
Hours' Bill.

LIGHT DUES.
Mr. HUME presented a petition from the shipowners of
Montrose, calling attention to the report of the Committee
which sat on the Light Dues the session before last, and pray-
ing for the abolition of the Light Dues.
ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION.
Mr. EVELYN DENISON gave notice that he would move
for a Select Committee to examine into the working and con-
stitution of the Ecclesiastical Commission on Thursday, the
25th instant.

act of justice to their West Indian colonies, and would not be
productive of injury either to the revenue or the agricultural
interest. At the plesent time of scarcity and of high prices,
he thought they would not be wholly inoperative in alleviating
the great distress which prevailed throughout the country. He
would now move that the Brewing from Sugar Bill be read a
second time.

Mr. F. FFCNCH desired to know whether his Hon. Friend
was aware thain the month of September last it was found
impossible to selnet the rates, and the chairman, the Earl of
Dieu, took uponhimself the whole expenses of the house?
Was the Right Ho. Gentleman aware that the board of guar-
dians framed a resoution, which they announced to the Poor-
law Commissioners stating that it was impossible to collect
the rate, and calling on them to sanction the borrowing of
money ? They hat stated in that resolution that they were
ready to admit the entire number the house was capable of
containing if they hal the means. The Commissioners were a
fortnight before the 3 replied to the application, and they then
gave a general anawr.
Sir G. GREY sail that the report from the Commissioners
should be laid on thetable, but at the same time he was bound
to state that, judingoy that report, he had no reason to doubt
that the rates of the Castlebar union might Lave been much
better collected if thi guardians had done their duty.
NOTICES OF MOTION.
Mr. ETWALL aimed to bring under the consideration of
the House the evidence given before the Andover Union Com-
mittee of last session together with the report of that Com-
mittee.
Mr. BRIGHT mined for the appointment of a Select
Committee to inquire ;nto the progress of the cultivation of
cotton in India.
Lord JOHN MANIsERS moved for leave to bring in a Bill
to alter and amend the laws relating to the disposition of
property for pious and :heritable purposes.
Mr. GRA l'T AN 'roved for returns of the absentees from
Ireland ; the annual value of the property of all absentees
assessed to the poor-rue; and the amount of all annuities
payable to any person no resident in Ireland.
Sir C. NA‘PIER mo'ed for the production of a copy of the
report of officers appoirted to make a trial of Capt. Warner's
long range, addressed tothe Master-General of the Ordnance.
COMMITTEE 0? THE NAVIGATION LAWS.
On the motion of Mr. RICARDO to nominate the gentle-
men to be appointed on the Select Committee on the naviga-
tion laws,
Mr. WAWN objectei to the name of Mr. Bright, and
moved that it should bs omitted. In looking over the list
he found the names of the representatives of the seaports
almost entirely left mit. He hoped, irs order to give satisfac-
tien to all interests, that the name of the Hon. candidate for
Manchester would be left out, and some other substituted.
Mr. FER RAND rose to protest against the constitution of
the Committee, as he found, out of the list, eleven Members
who had voted in favour of free trade. He asked would the
country be satisfied with such a Committee to inquire into the
operation of the navigation laws ? It was well known, there-
fore, that the Committee would report against the con-
tinuance of those laws as no longer necessary. On these
grounds he would decidedly support the motion of the Hon.
Member (Ms. Wawn), and would divide the House with him,
even if he stood alone.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought the Committee was a
fair one. It was thought right that the Vice-President
of the Board of Trade should be on the Committee,
and if he understood the lion. Member right, he did not object
to that. With regard to the name of the Hon. Member for
Durham being left out because he was a candidate for Man-
chester, he (Lord John Russell) never heard of such a thing
before.
Mr. FINCH was not satisfied with the Committee.
It was well known that one of the principal petitions
which had led to the appointment of this Committee was from
the Manchester Chamber of Commerce. These petitioners
were in favour of free trade, and therefore the Hon. Member
for Durham would act to secure their support. In fact they
were agreed that the navigation-laws should be repealed.—
( Hear, hear.) Seeing the importance of every interest being
fully satisfied in the selection of the Committee, he hoped as
groat an approximation to impartiality as possible would be
made.
Mr. LIDDELL was sorry to hear from many of the Hon.
Members around him that there was no chance of the country
being satisfied with this Committee. Application bad been
made to him in the first instance to serve upon the first
Committee that had been appointed, but that ap-
plication he had respectfully deciined ; but, having
seen the good temper and feeling with which the Right
lion. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had suggested the recon-
struction of it, and the fairness with which the mover had
acceded to that suggestion, he (Mr. Liddell), on his being
Cagain requested to allow his name to be placed on that
ommittee, he at once consented. He did not doubt that the
country would be satisfied with the constitution of the Com-
mittee, and, as far as he was concerned, he could assure the
House that lie only wished for a fair and impartial inquiry.
Mr. BROWNRIGG said, that he was one of the Hon.
Members who was, on the first instance, asked to form one of
this Committee, and as he had not takes part in the discussion,
he might, perhaps, for these reasons, be allowed to address one
or two observations to the House. He had, for more than
a quarter of a century been engaged in commercial pursuits,
and he was, therefore, in possession of some information that
might be considered useful in the consideration of this question.
He did not throw this out as a warning to the members of the
Committee, whom the Noble Lord had described as being
eivided into two classes, one of them being persons who
would vote for the maintenance of the navigation lacvs,:what-
ever evidence they might hear, and the other persons who
would vote against them, whatever evidence they might hear.
Sir HARRY VANE trusted the Honourable Member who
had made the motion would not persevere in dividing the
House.
Mr. WALLACE said he would persist in doing so, even if
he went out alone.
Mr. BERESFORD explained that in the list he made
out the name of the Honourable Member for Boston
appeared, hut it was withdrawn at the request of the Hon.
Member for the city of London, who was anxious, as he had
previously been chairman of a similar Committee, to be Placed
on the present one. He represented to the Hon. Member that
his health was not such as to admit of his going through the
fatigue of a committee man, but the Hon. Member differed
with him on that point.—(Hear and Laughter)—and of course he had no alternative but to put his name on the list.
Mr. BROWRIGG did not wish it to be understood that he
complained of not being put on the Committee.
Mr. V. SMITE! objected to the practice of placing on
Committees an equal number of Members for or against the
particular question referred to them. The reason why the
Committees of that House did not arrive at any satisfactory
conclusion arose out of the improper mode of nominating these
Committees of Hon. Members, who went into the Committee
with opinions biassed either to one side or the other.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw ; no division, how-
ever, took place, the amendment having been withdrawn.
The following names were then nominated on the Select
Committee:—Mr. Ricardo, Sir Robert Peel, Mr. Mitchell,
Alderman Thompson, Mr. Villiers, Sir Howard Douglas,
Admiral Dundas, Mr. Lyall, Mr. M`Carthy, Mr. Thomas
Baring, Mr. Hume, Mr. Liddell, Mr. Bright, Sir G. Clerk,
Me. Milner Gibson.
RAILWAYS (IRELAND) BILL.
Lord G. BEN TINCK presented petitions from a relief com-
mittee of the county of Wexford, and from the counties cf
Down and Armagh, in favour of the proposed measure for fa-
cilitating the construction of railways in Ireland.
MODE OF PUNISHMENT ADOPTED BY THE
BOARD OF WORKS IN IRELAND.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN said he would beg to draw attention
b hyw eh
punishment.lwe
gohu
tl pdo
apruamlyaeit
dni tnh amte resident
to a system of punishment enforced by the Board
of Works in Ireland. When an outrage took place
were thrown out of employment. Ile did not know
wau sp consequenceo i
mostnf
aa
nni t
public works in the neighbourhood of
whether it was the original intention of the House to admit such
in a district,mbbaum tattrethohdiuess
teocahvrueeupt overseer
sailcengoeceurai pnnitdeyo:f he had the honour to represent, 288 men,
women, and boys were thrown out of employment. There
was no injury inflicted
scratcupon the overseer, whose name was
Elme, slight h
blow from the butt end of a genon his ear, occasioned by a
_
(A laugh.) The incident
him occurred
theedonlethtteer22odf January,daaymoofstlarsetspeeted catholic arch-deacon. and was verified to
They were aware that by an order issued in October by the
Board of Works the overseers were authorised to dismiss the
men on any public work on which violence should have been
offered to any officer engaged. This was a most arbitrar
power to place in the hands of the overseers. 288 persons em-y
P .
'oved upon the Kilmaimham-road were dismissed upon the
instant, and a list was furnished to the relief committee with
the view of excluding them from any other public works. This
dismissal affected nearly 900 persons, and a torture was in-
flicted upon them, with a view of extracting evidence to im-
plicate the authors of the attack upon the overseer. 850 of
those tortured did not knoa,' the offenders, and had perhaps
on.,:eans,
aa.nbdlincdhilpdirpeenr,. tondeiscvoiveetrimtsheaxt
expressed
Ballingarry, the torture was inflicted on
never seen them. Of the 208 dismissed, some were boys, and
some destitute
d aidweidoawnsd, whobreak hadltonneos otherunider resource u
skyreen
fbujta
ntnoa
rsyi.t
albgnyedtthheemerpnoaa,riawh
of
it wee impossible one out of fifty could have known. One of
these persons
no malice, but requested that they might be allowed to go to
It was desirable, as it was said, to inspire in
the vrorkhouse-
these wretches a sentiment of respect for the law for the time
to come; so starving fathers were, by their dismissal, obliged to
see theie children wanting food without being able to assist them.
He had heard of one instance in which 500 families had been
reduced to absolute famine from the suspension of public
works. His object in rising was to know from the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland whether the Go-
vernment sanctioned the proceedings to which he had referred?
Mr. LABOUCHERE said it would have been but right for
the Mon. Member to have given notice of his intention of
bringing the subject forward, and then he would have been
prepared to meet the statement. But, with regard to the
general policy of the Government, it was undoubtedly true
that the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland had found it was absolutely
necessary, for the protection of their servants, and as a duty
required of them in order to protect the lives and persons of
their officers, to lay it down as a rule that whenever
instance, injured their officers,
the labourers, in any
and where there was good reason to believe that the
offending parties were known to any of the other labourers,
to suspend the work
was given respecting the offenders.—(Hear, hear.) He
on
H. Member con-
fessed
he had been astonished at hearing the s till such time as information
ap-
prove of the sentiments contained in the letter which he had
read. He would not yield to the Hon. Member in real sym-
•
pathy for the Irish people, but at the same
time he must say it
was the duty of the Government to see that in pro-
viding
for the employment of the people of that
country, their servants were protected.—( Hear, hear.)
The Lord• Lieutenant believed that the only effectual means
of protecting the officers of the public works, was to lay
down that rule, and to act upon it, and thehad
fully proved the wisdom of that course.—(Hear.) result
of these outrages had taken lace, and the perpetrators of
them had escaped unpunished ; but he was happy tosay
taken, that on
a recent occasion, when an attack on a public odic er hadp
place, the labourers on the works did not only not sympathise
with and assist the perpetrators of the outrage, but actually
rose to defend the officer, and they pursued those persons and
took them into custody. He was prepared to justify the conduct
of the Government in this matter, and he did not therefore be-
lieve that the House of Commons, to whom the lion. Member
had appealed, would decide that the Government of Ireland
had not done its duty in affording that protection
to the officers of those public works to which they were
entitled, by giving the labourers on these works the deepest
interest in preventing outrages. lie could not answer
the particular question asked him by the Honourable
Member, as he had not eiven notice of it, but
he had felt it his duty to explain the general principle on
which the Government of Ireland had acted.
Mr. HUME said that if there was any one subject that
should be noticed in this House, this was the most important,
because of all the evils in Ireland, this, if not remedied
by the Government, would lead to other, and perhaps grea'er
evils. They read of murders 1 eevetrated openly and in the
day ; of persons entering dwelling.houses, and, after com-
mitting the most brutal outrages, escaping unpunished. He
thought, therefore, that so far from incurring blame for the
course they had pursued, that they should rather regard it as
a means of restoring order. He regretted that any Hon.
Member should say in his place that he was glad that the cul-
prits had escaped ; and he thought, that if this impression of
it went abroad, it would do much mischief.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN explained that the gentleman who wrote
the letter did not so much rejoice that the culprits had escaped,
as that they had not been subjected to a process of torture to
force them to do that which they would not otherwise do frnrn
a sense of duty.—(Oh, )
Lord CLEMENTS congratelated the House upon the
firmness the Government had displayed in the present
instance. It would be utterly impossible to carry on these
works without resorting to the measures authorised by the

► Lord STANLEY observed, that his Noble Friend was quite
correct in stating that no discussion should take place on these
Bills at this state ; but, at the same time, he thought that the
Noble Earl would not have abstained from stating what
the grounds were en which it was proposed to
make these permanent instead of temporary measures.
These measures were introduced under the cover of being
temporary. These were Bills which might affect materially
this country as well as the colonies, and which, consequently,
would affect very important interests. When these measures
were brought forward, not as temporary, but as permanent'
they ought to look most carefully into all the details and
figures. Unless her Majesty's Government should consent to
refer these Bills to a Select Committee of that Honey, he gave
notice that he would move that these Bills be referred to a
Select Committee of that House.
Lord MONTEAGLE considered that all the Bills con-
nected with the subject should be read together.
The Earl of CLARENDON was ready to give his Noble
Friend the reasons which had induced the Government to in-
troduce Bills of a permanent character. A pledge had been
given in the course of last session on this question which could
not consistently be receded from. With respect to the course
proposed to be adopted by his Noble Friend opposite, that I
these Bills should be referred to a Select Com-
mittee, he could assure the Noble Lord that
there was nothing complicated, but, on the contrary,
what was most simple in the details of these Bills. They had
already passed through the other House, and even those op.
posed to the Bills did not object to the principle upon which
they were based. His Noble Friend opposite had stated that
it was not his intention to create delay, yet he must say that
delay would be created if those Bills were referred to a Select
Committee. If the principle of that motion were agreed to, ,
there was no Bill involving fiscal or commercial details that
might not be subjected to delay. He therefore felt himself
bJund, on the part of her Majesty's government, to
resist the motion of the Noble Lord. With respect to what
had been said respecting the Bill relating to the duty on rum,
there had been some delay, which could not be avoided. His
Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to whom
he was speaking yesterday on the question, was of opinion
that that Bill should be read first.
Lord STANLEY, when he; used the term cover, did not
mean what he had said in any offensive sense. The ground on
which this measure had born brought forward was
not upon any pledge of the House that had
been given to relieve immediate distress ; it was
distinctly referred to in the Speech of her Majesty as one of
those measures to be introduced for the purpose of relieving
the dissress that prevailed.
After a few words from Earl GREY, the two Bills were
read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Friday.
THE DESTITUTE PERSONS (IRELAND) BILL.
This Bill went through Committee, and was ordered to be
reported on Thursday next.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

order of the Lord-Lieutenant. Ho did not believe that any
public office would have been worth a day's purchase had it
not been for that order.
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN said some time previous to
the issuing of the order in question, he made a communication
to the Government from his part of the country, recommending
them to issue it. He was therefore prepared to share its re-
sponsibility with the Government. Until property was ren-
dered secure in Ireland, they could not hope that capitalists
would invest their money in it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said ha must
trespass for a few moments upon the attention of the House,
while he made an explanation in reference to a statement he
made the other night. On Friday night last he stated,
upon the authority of a gentleman well versed in such
matters, that only from twenty to thirty men per
mile were employed in the construction of a railway,
and therefore that only 25 per cent, of the actual cost was
expended in labour. Last night the Honourable Member
for Shrewsbury said that he had mistaken the meaning of his
informant, and he (the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury) had had
a commuacation with: him, who stated he meant there were
only .25 labourers per mile permanently employed upon a railway.
This morning he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had re-
ceived a letter from the gentleman who supplied him with
the information ; and, with the permission of the House, he
would read a portion of it. The first paragraph was this :
o Of the total cost of railways, 25 per cent. is the outside of
what is spent upon the ground in labour. I find, from a large
number of results, that the average number of labourers em-
ployed in the construction of a railway of ordinary character,
may be taken at from twenty to thirty men per mile for a pe-
riod of three years." Now, when he addressed the House he
did not say that twenty-five men was the number employed;
on the contrary, he took the maximum number, thirty, and
then, assuming the quantity of work to be contracted at 1,500
miles, as stated by the Noble Lord the Member fur Lynn,
that would give employment to 45,000 men, that was at the
rate of thirty men per mile, not twenty-five, as stated by the
Hon. Member for Shrewsbury,—(Hear, hear.) The lion.
Member for Shrewsbury then went on to say that he (the
Chancellor of the Each, quer) had misconceived the information
which he had received. He held in his hand a letter from the
same gentleman whose information he quoted on Friday last
and which he received this morning, written since the delivery
of the speech of the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury last night,
in which he stated, "I never called upon Mr. Disraeli, or spoke
to him, or communicated with him in any way.—(Laughter.)
My information to you was fact." He (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) had no business to state anything more upon this
subject, but he thought upon the authority of the extracts
which he had read that it would be evident to the House that
the rrson from whom he derived his information did not in
any way communicate with the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury;
secondly, that he did not say that he (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chcqu,,r) was mistakes as to the information he had
given to the House ; thirdly, that he did not incor-
rectly state the information which he had received;
lastly, that no information was given to me by that gentleman,
whose name if I were to mention would be considered by all
lion. Members as a most competent authority, had been dis-
proved. He did not believe that the Hon. Member for
Shrewsbury would, any more than he (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer', state anything to the House which he did not
believe to be strictly true ; he believed him perfectly incapable
of so doing. After those statements he thought it was evident
that the Hon. Member had been misled or imposed upon, and
if he would forgive him making a suggestion to the Hon.
Member, he would advise him not to make any statements to
the House upon which lie could not most correctly rely,
and the truth of which he had not most carefully sifted. By
acting otherwise the Hon. Member tended to invalidate not
only such statements as those he made to the House last night,
bug also to detract from the weight of other statements which
he might make to the House.— (Hear, hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI could assure the Right Hon. Gentle-
man that if he used any expression in the course of the
debate which might have caused him any annoyance, he ex-
tremely regretted it. He felt that respect for the Right Hon.
Gentleman which was always due to his position, his talents,
and his allities.—( Hear, hear.) Ile thought, however, that
the Right Hon. Gentlemen had wrongly stated the question
before the House. What he (Mr. Disraeli) said to the House
was, that a gentleman of great experience in the management
of railways, and well known in the scientific world, had sup-
posed, in consequence of the speech of the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer
that the information he had given him had been misunderstood,
He had reason to believe that he was the person referred to
by the Right Honourable Gentleman, and larnereed
that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should have
fallen into such a mistake. The whole rnisunder
standing arose from the use of anonymous letters. Had the
Right Hon. Gentleman mentioned the name of his informant,
there could have been no possible mistake upon the subject.
He did not say that he had seen the individual to whom the
Right Hon. Gentleman referred, but that he had seen an
individual %vim believed himself to be the person referred to.
He was authorised to name the person to whom he alluded,
but he did not think it fair to do so, especially as the Noble
Lord the Member for Lynn was present during the interview.
Mr. COLLETT said that he would not interfere with the
privilege of the Member for Wycombe, but that he hoped to
be fortunate enough to catch the eye of the Speaker before
the close of the debate. He thanked her Majesty's Govern-
ment for the course they had pursued with respect to the
public works. It had answered in every instance, and men
who hail left the country were now enabled to come back with-
out the fear of being shot at.
Lord CLEMENI S wished to put a question to the:Right
Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The
Right Hon. Gentleman in his speech the other night had
stated that the landlords in some parts of Ireland were pur-
suing a system of ejectment by means of processes for rent
to an exent never before known. In one quarter
sessions he had said that 6,40) processes had
been entered, so that 4,000 were issued by the landlords
for rent. He was quite sure that the Right Hon. Gentleman
would not wish to make any misstatement with regard to these
processes, and he ( Lord Clements), therefore, wished to know
from the Right Hon. Gentleman from what source he derived
his information ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he
made the statement on the authority of a person who had been
in Mayo and through part of Galway, and who had made the
communication to the Right Hon. the Secretary for Ireland.
If the Noble Lord wished to ascertain the number of these
processes there would not be the least difficulty in moving for
a return of them.

sRIS II RAILWAY BILL.—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
The order of the day for the adjourned debate was then
read.
Mr. B. OSBORNE said, in rising to address the House he
would endeavour to condense his observations as far as the
nature of the subject would admit. He quite agreed with
what had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, that they should steer clear of all
party policy or political consideration in discussing this ques-
tion, so important to the interests of Ireland as well as the in-
terests of this country. He for one never could admit that
there was any distinction between the interests of England
and those of Ireland, as that which had a tendency to benefit
Ireland also benefited this country.—( Hear, hear.) But the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
fallen into the very error himself of which he warned other
Hon. Members. He had expressed himself dissatisfied with
the names of the Noble Lord and the two Hon. Members on
the back of the Bill. Now he (Mr. B. Osborne) must say
that whatever difference of opinion he might have with the
Noble Lord the Member for Lynn, or the other two Hon.
Members, he felt certain that on the present occasion they
were sincerely desirous of benefiting Ireland.—( Hear, hear.)
This was no party question, and much as he admired the ability
of the Hon. Member for Mayo (Mr. D. Browne), he could not
see what connexion there was between the earthwork of rail..
ways and the extension of the franchise, or that the principle
of laying down railways would have an effect on the Irish
Church.--( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member might as well
talk of the advantages that would result from a Conservative
engineer, or a Protestant surveyor.—( Hear, hear.) In history
he recollected a circumstance equally reasonable. It was also
during a period of famine. During the great fire of London,
when the metropolis was suffering from famine and distress, the
people of Ireland sent over 20,000 fat cattle; but the historian
said, that so high did party spirit run, and so bigoted were the
citizens of London, though many of them were famishing. they
refused to taste the beef because they were Popish budeeks.--
( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) But they were so far improved,
that none objected to the present scheme, because the Noble
Lord who proposed it was a supporter of the Esta-
blished Church.—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. B. Osborne)
regretted that the Noble Lord the Member for the city of
London had not only opposed the Bill, but held out no hope
that a measure fur railways in Ireland would be introduced in
the present session. He (Mr. B. Osborne) lamented that inti-
mation, but having heard it, he was bound to record his vote
in favour of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn. While he
gave his support to the principle of the Bill, he did not pledge
himself to do so in its details ; for when the Noble Lord spoke
of 16,000,0001., he thought that he would have rendered him-
self more popular if he had msntioned a somewhat lesser sum.
He would not give his support to the measure on the
ground assigned by the Hon. Member for Kilkenny (Mr John
O'Connell), who was indifferent as to the nature of the works
so long as a large sum of money were transmitted to Ireland.
He ( Mr. Osborne) would not give the measure his support on
that ground, but he believed that the measure or the Noble
Lord contemplated profitable works, on which English capital
might be safely invested. He could not help observing that
Hon. Members who spoke on this question appeared not to
have listened to the speeches on the same question by previous
Members, or to have even looked at the debate in the news-
papers, for they brought forward the sa.ne old fallacies which
were urged on the first evening by the Right Honourable
Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and which
Were afterwards so triumphantly exploded by the Right
Honourable the Lord Mayor of York and his Honourab!cr Friend the Member for Shrewsbury. The Right Honourable
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had alleged that only twenty.
five per cent. of the gross outlay would be expended in
labour, whereas it had been proved that from
sixty to seventy per cent. would be so expended.
It had also been said that it was not right to interfere with pri-
vate speculation. As applied to England, no doubt that doe.
trine was good, but it was entirely different when introduced
into Ireland. The Noble Lord at the head of the Woods and
Forests a few years ago was of this opinion, and if he was not
mistaken, the position the Noble Lord then took was supported
by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Member
for Portsmouth—nay, the latter Hon Gentleman went so far
as to say that he was perfectly astounded at the statement of
the Hon. Member for Tamworth, that it would be unwisel
to interfere with private speculation in Ireland.
He came now to the principal objection of the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, namely, that he was unwilling that the State
should become a great money-lender, He con,idered that it
would be much better that the State should be so, than
become a profligate spendthrift, disposing of the money of the
country in the highways and bye-ways. But what had been
the policy of the State ? Why, always that of a money-
lender. He would mention a fact which could not be too
often impressed upon the House, that since the union eighteen
millions hail been lent to England and Scotland, out of which
only six millions had been repaid, whilst within the same period
nine millions had been lent to Ireland, out of which seven
millions had been repaid. —(No, no.) That was an account
greatly to the shame of those countries, and greatly to the
credit of Ireland. He would now refer to the statements of
the Hon. Member fur Montrose, an.! he thought that the
Hon. Gentleman was a little hard in his observations with re-
gard to Irish prophets re, and he drew an inference which he
was certainly not warranted in doing ;- he objected to Ireland's
getting any money slab ss Scotia' A got some also. Now he
(Mr. Hume) should have recollected that Scotland got a very
fair share of public money. She got upwards of a million of
money for the Caledonian Canal.—(Hear, hear.) He drew,
moreover, a comparison between the Scotch landed proprietor
and the Irish, bidding the latter to "go and do likewise."
Now, he would ask, did he know what the Irish
landlords were doing. One Noble Lord in the county of Water-
ford,i with an income of 20,000!. a-year, had spent 5,0001. n
the purchase of Indian meal, and was employing every labourer
upon his estates, and every other proprietor in the county was
imitating his example ; and he knew tha' the lathes of Ireland
were selling their jewels, and disposing of their jointures, in
order to alleviate the distress. He did not allude to those who
were laying down their carriages, and diminishing their ex-
penditures, because that was what ought to be done
by every one who had a heart to feel, but it
was not just to hear the Honourable Member
thank his God that he was not the public sinner.--f {,ari
hear.) There was the Marquis of Waterford, whose name was
never heard but in association with works of charity. What
was the reason that the Scotch proprietors availed themselves

of the Drainage Act, while the Irish proprietors di not? The
Act was so drawn up, that it was impossible for any of them
to take advantage of it. Whilst he was on the subject of Scot-
land, he would state that there was a time when the inhabitants
of Paisley—he would not use the term used by another Hon.
Gentleman, and say that they came yelling for money—but he
would say that they were in great distress, and came to the
House for a vote of money. Who were the people
who supported them on that occasion ? Why, the
Irish Members. An Honourable Gentleman, the other
evening, in making his first attempt in that House,
had stigmatised the Bill of the Noble Lord as an unusual mea-
sure, and in his argument he confined himself to the immoral
tendency of railways. He said that Irish railways were all
bubble transactions. If he held any shares in the Kingstown
Railway—which it was clear he did not—and had been in the
habit of receiving the dividend, he would have been slower to
perceive their immoral tendency, or their ruinous character.
The Hon. Member for Sunderlaud had stated that the English
capitalists refused to embark their capital in Irish railways, but
that was because they had no security for their completion,
and if the Government would once assist them, the English
capitalists would be the first to come forward. It was not
till last week that a grant was made for this railway, amount-
ing to 78,000/, and it was stated by the Chancellor of the
Exchequer that Mr. Saunders, the secretary to the company.
wrote to him, objecting to employ the paupers
on the railway. From a letter he had re-
ceived a few days since from one of the directors
of the company, he found that one provision of Le grant was
that the able-bodied paupers should be employed by task-work
to perform the earthwork of the railway. No notice had
been taken of the numerous presentments made to the Exi he-
quer by the barony over which he had the honeur to preside ;
and after a period of four months, the Government had adopted
the principle of the soup kitchens, a hint which they took from.
that admirable body of men, the Quakers, He did not believe
that such benefits would result from this soup measure as were
anticipated by the Government. There was no work
for the people of Ireland, and the Government
ought to establish some system of public works
by which the people could obtain provisions. Ile objected to
the statements made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer of
the penurious mode of giving relief to the people of Ireland
by the landlords of that country. He was sorry not to see the
Chancellor of the Exchequer in his place.
An HoN. MEMBER—He is unwell.
'Mr. B. OSBORNE—He was still more sorry to hear that
intelligence, but he did not wonder at it, after the monstrous
statements he had made.—(Laughter.) That Right lion.
Gentleman had been also most grossly misled upon the subject of
the immense number of ejecta-lents served in the county of
Galway. He had received a letter from, the lieutenant of the
county, stating that there was no authority for any such assertion.
He thought that the Government was most seriously to blame
in not calling the House together at an earlier period. The
Hon. Member for Shrewsbury had so attacked and refuted the
arguments of the three Chancellors of the Exchequer, that it
would be cruel to torture them any more. The Chancellor of
the Exchequer upon the other side (Mr. Goulhurn) had said
that it was a most injurious thing to raise a loan in a time of
peace. Why, was not the present a most pressing emergency,
even more severe than the devastations of war ? Besides, was
it not more rational to employ the public money
for public purposes, than in improving the private
estates of the landlords by grants for drainage ?—(Cheers. )
In the vote he was about to give, he did not feel the mis-
givings of some Hon. Members, that, if the measure were car-
ried, the Government would resign. It was nothing more than
a mere threat—the Government would not resign. Govern-
ments often take leave but always seem loath to depart, and the
threat was nothing more than a mere crack of the whip for the
purpose of bringing up the Whig recussants, who could not be
brought to vote except under a threat of resignation.—
(Cheers.) He called upon the House not to make the present
a party question ; but because he considered the sufferings and
distress of Ireland as of greater importance than keeping in a
mere Whig Ministry, he should give his most cordial support
-to the measure of the Noble Lord.—(Cheers.)
Colonel CONNOLLY congratulated the Noble Lord the
Member for Lynn for the very able and statesmanlike manner
in which he had brought the measure under the consideration
of the House. He would have no hesitation in saving, that
in comparison with the measure brought in by the Govern-
ment for the relief of Ireland, the Bill of the Noble Lord was
perfedtien itself, and, inasmuch as he (Colonel Connolly)
preferied a permanent to a temporary measure, bor-
rowing, and begging, he wood give his most strenuous
support to the measure before the House. -- ( Cheers. )
He said he had communicated the statement which he had
just made respecting the market of Enniskillen, that the re-
turns in the one year had been 58,000'., and the next year it
had amounted to 9e,0001. ; and, in addition, the amount ef
the population of the town itself. He would not at present,
remark further upon Enniskillen, for he would return to it;
hut from the fact which he had just stated, he passed imme-
diately to the Ulster Canal, which was the more immediate
subject of consideration, and he begged to al the House,
after having heard of so great a difference as that between
AWOL and 99,0L)0/.. they were prepared to say the Ulster
Canal would not ultimately prove remunerative, if only time
had been given to improve the traffic, and bring out its pro-
ductiveness? Again lie said, the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
attempting to disparage the project of the Noble Lord, had
stated that much the greater part of the project had been pro-
posed to be c..rried out as a matter of private enterprise, and
he said that it was proposed to do that at a cost of only
5,000,0001. instead of 1 6,009,000/., the sum asked for by the
Noble Lord. But he (Colonel Connolly) had no doubt that
by stating that sum the Noble Lord ( Lord G. Bentinck) had
given himself ample margin, and unwilling to stand at all in
his own light, or to meet unnecessarily the amount of public
obloquy which would be raised if the smallest part of his plan
were not realised, had named such a sum as he was quite sure
would bring the whole project, in all its details, to perfect
completion. But when the Chancellor of the Ex hequer com-
pared the 5,000 0001. with the 16,000,000/. , it was strange
that, during the course of the discussion, some had
enth ely overlooked so remarkaale a fact, which had
been quite, forgotten, that the project of the Noble Lord had
been proposed to be carried out by private capital and enter-
prise, and that these very persons, as soon as they received the
encouragement of the Government, would come to the rescue
and effectually carry it out. Too much, he thought, had been
made of the withdrawal of those persons for the present from
the evecution of the works. The House knew well the
position in which those persons were—that they were entangled
with the difficulties which became general, owing to the un-
happy state of the money-market. He trusted, however, that
they would be able s. on to recover themselves, and he thought
the fact that those persons had subscribed for the
construction of railways some 5,000,0001., a fact
which had been used against the Noble Lord's
measure, on the contrary made for that measure,
and showed that the moment that Government would sanction
the raising of 16,000,0004, those persons would certainly come
to the rescue, and make good the effectual realisation of the
project. He was sorrry to say that it was the unfortunate
condition of Ireland,tbat the attempt to introduce English capital
into that country had, left them worse than they were before ;
for it had •induced a reckless expenditure of money while the
spirit of speculation existeds but the money-market became
deranged, and this attempt had ended and left them worse
than when it began. It had been said, however, that the pro-
ject had been brought out only to serve the purposes of the
railroad speculators, and not to feed the people of Ireland ; but
that was an imputation which, as an Irish Member, not think-
ing it ever would have been made, but now that it had been made,
would repel with the utmost seal. He thought it was much to the
credit of the good judgment displayed by the Noble Lord, when,
without any Irishmen in his councils, he had brought out so
splendid a project. He (Col. Connolly) did not like to say any
more in the presence of the Noble Lord himself, or even so
much, but eulogium had become very customary in that House,
and the Noble Lord would get used to it.—( Laughter.) It had
again been stated that the construction of the railways in
the east of Ireland, instead of relieving. the Irish people, had
actually been a source of poverty to them. Now he did not
hesitate to give it his positive denial. He had full opportunity
of seeing the operation of railways in Ireland, for his window
looked out on two railroads, which ran some ten or tn elvd miles
from Dublin. Now although these railways ran through four
parishes, there had yet been no presentment for their con-
struction at the sessions, and all that he as an individual
had been called upon to pay, was only 101., to keep down the
markets. The House now, then, had two sets of measures be-
fore them, and it would be for them to give the Preference ; but
he asked them whether they were prepared to prefer the mea-
sures of the Government, which, he could not say, could ore-
serve life, but rather leave them to die by degrees—measures
which certainly would not do more than keep' them in a mere
state of existence—or the measure of the Noble Lord, which
offered labour and honest remuneration to the starving people,
which would give them due support, and would restore them al-
most to their former position within a reasor:able time ? The
latter measure—that proposed by the Noble Lord--
offered not merely a miserable support till August,
or autumn next, but labour and remuneration for the next
four years. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had spoken
slightingly of the productiveness of Irish railways. Now he
could tell the Right. Honouraole Gentleman, that before the
present session he had come along the course of the Mullin-
gar line, which was a prolongation of two of the best and
great trunk lines in Ireland. He was well acquainted with
the course of that line, and the course of some of the others,
and he was strongly impressed with the productive nature of
those lines as soon as they should be completed, and it was
OD that ground that he begged the Noble Lord at the head
of the Goverment to hand over the money asked for under the
Government measures to the Noble Lord who had brought in
the present measure. It had been stated, however, by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the people of Ireland were
not fitted to carry on the works on ra.lways ; but he begged to
state, in contradiction to that, on the credit of a document
published by Sir John Macneil, where he stated that the
people were hard set the first week to earn their wages; the
second they could do it tolerably; and the third week they were
ambitious of taking task-work, and showed no small amount of
cupidity. He said there was one great system of railways
projected onwards to Cork, and had been constructed
to Carlow. It was of no use to compare the remunerations of
that railroad with the London and Birmingham Railway.
Why, there were about twenty miles constructed of it at the one
end, and about the same extent made at the other extremity,
with with a large gap in the middle ; it was impossible that
railway could pay. He thought that one great desideratumtsuch
in
a
Ireland was a line of railroad between Dublin and Belfast.
But he would just advert shortly to the west of Ireland—to the
railway between Derry and Enniskillen. There were some
ten miles of rail laid down, all the land had been bargained for,
some of it paid for, but it was still unmade; and the question
seemed to be in that House whether these speculators ought to be
encouraged in their useful efforts to benefit the_ populatian.
ge looked upon these railways as the best means of g
capital into Ireland. There was afield of enterprise open, and
there was a starving population who were only eager for em-
ployment. The Noble Lord's Bill would not only finish the
railways already in proiress, but create others which were al-
most imperatively demanded, and that not at the cost of th
public. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had admitted tha
the western part of Ireland had been very much neglected
On the coast of Galway the sea was teeming with'
gab, for which there was no market, while it vas
notorious that fish bought in Galway on the Monday could
be dressed and upon the table in the afternoon of Tuesday in
Liverpool. If there were proper roads in Ireland, there would
be abundance of commerce to carry upon them. In Donegal
there was a salmon fishery, from which one hundred tens of
salmon was taken every year; and it was an undoubted fact,
that trade in salmon had been doubled from the simple cir-
cumstance of there being a railway between Liverpool and
Birmingham.—( Hear, hear.) There was not an inch of
gr*und between Dublin and Gslway, or any of the other
places mentioned in the Bill, which would not be wonderfully
benefited by the measure of the Noble Lord if it was carried
out ; the people were starving at each of these places for want
of a 'means of communication between them. He had no
hesitation in saying that nothing would stimulate the
prosperity of Ireland more than the establishment of
markets—which were a necessary consequence of good
roads. Markets would stimulate the consumptirm of manufac-
tures ; and thus they would find that there was scarcely a
limit which could be put on the beneficial effects of the pro-
posal of the Noble Lord. He bad heard it said that this was
the time to regenerate Ireland. He would say to the Noble
Lord the Member for London, that it was the time to re-
generate Ireland, and the present Bill was the very measure
by which it was to be effected.—( Hear, hear.)
Captain LAYA RD said that every Hon. Member who was
an Irish representative would not fail to join in a feeling of
gratitude to the Noble Member for Lynn. He considered
that a system of railways would confer great good upon Ire-
land, but he did not see from whence the money was to come.
Where would they find such an enormous sum as 16,00,000/. ?