The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-12 00:00:00

MARCH 12, 1847.

NAVIGATION LAWS.

The Committee on the Navigation-laws re-assembled
yesterday morning at one o'clock. There were present
Mr. M. Gibson (chairman), Sir George Clerk, Mr.
Ricardo, Sir H. Douglas, Mr. Hume, Mr. Thomas
Baring, Mr. Mitchell, Admiral Dundas, Mr. Lyall,
Alderman Thompson, and Mr. Villiers. The examina-
tion of Mr. M‘Gregor was resumed.
By Mr. Hume—The navigation-laws had rather
-ncouraged ship-building in the colonies, and had
brought them into competition with the United King-
dom, as they were built there rather more cheaply. lle
believed that if foreign ships were allowed to compete
on equal terms with British ships, the result would be
great improvement in naval architecture, diminution in
the expense, and a great increase in the number of
British ships. The reason for his belief was, that within
the last few years the duties on ship-building materials
had been remitted, except in the case of pine, used for
decks, and copper ore. The admissioa of colonial-built
ships had not diminished the number of British-built
shipping, for he found that there had been a great
annual increase in the number of British-built ships for
many years past. If foreign ships were not admitted,
he did not think that a greater proportionate number of
British ships would be built. His opinion was grounded
upon this reason—that the number of ships in any
country depended upon the carrying trade which em-
ployed them, and that the introduction of foreign
ships opened out foreign branches of the carrying trade.
With regard to foreign countries, he found that our own
ships could carry as cheaply as any foreign vessels.
British ships had increased in a greater proportion than
American ships, although the two countries were placed
upon an equal footing. He held in his hand a statement
of all the British, foreign, and American vessels entering
the ports of the United States between 1789 and 1844,
and it appeared that in 1789 there entered the ports of
the United States 94,410 tons of British shipping, of
foreign ships (including British) 106,654 tons; the
British shipping being more than nine-tenths of the
whole. The American ships amounted to 127,329 tons.
The year following was marked by restrictions, but he
would come down to 1816, the first whole year of peace,
when he found that the British shipping entering the
United States ports amounted to 212,000 tons, while the
American ships in the same year amounted to 877,000 tons.
Then, in 1844, the amount of British shipping was
706,747 tons, of foreign shipping (including British)
916,000 tons; of American shipping 1,977,438 tons,
showing that in 1816 the British ships were to the
American as one to four; while in 1844 they were as
one to two and a half ; being an increase of one-half
per cent. in our favour, while the ships of all the other
European and South American States amounted only to
150,250 tons. These figures were taken altogether
from the official accounts of the American Custom.
houses, which were annually laid before the Congress of
the United States.

By Sir Howard Douglas—The British shipping was
not prosperous in consequence of the navigation-laws,
and he could not believe that the linen and the cotton
manufactures owed their prosperity to the protection, of
which they had never taken advantage. If our ships
under the navigation-laws had been able at any time to
compete with the Americans or any other country, it
was not owing to the navigation-laws, for he considered
. .

that British shipping had prospered in defiance of them.
(Sir Howard Douglas—ls that rational or philoso-
phical?) Whenever a trade or occupation of any kind
ceased to be remunerative, it would be found that the

trade was generally abandoned. He considered that
every restriction or relaxation taken off the construction
and the navigation of British ships would tend to enable
British ships to enter into competition with others
better than they could under the system of restriction.
By Mr. Ricardo--The only disadvantage we laboured
under in ship-building, was with the countries on the
Baltic. It had been given in evidence before the House
of Commons, that British North American ships were
selling in Liverpool, in 1844, at 3/. and 31. 103. per ton ;
bat those ships were sold at a great loss.
Mr. Thompson—They came to this country chiefly
as timber floats. It was at a period of great general de-
pression.

A discussion of some length arose as to the mode of
proceeding adopted by the Committee. It resulted in
the witness being requested to state his general opinion
of the navigation-laws.
Mr. M‘Gregor said, that with respect to the navigation-
laws and their effect on the commerce and navigation
between the United Kingdom and the British posses-
sions in different parts of the world, the spirit and prin-
ciple of those laws was to confine the direct navigation
and the direct trade between the mother country and
the colonies and between one colony and another to the
ships of British subjects. The policy of the proposition
was, that we should comider the international trade, and
the trade between the colonies and the mother country,
as far as possible on the footing of a coasting trade, and
the effect has been to place the trade between the United

Kingdom and every British port in the colonies, and the
trade between one British colony and another British
colony, upon the most restricted footing. The exception
to the carrying out the law bad been, that of one colony

imposing on the commerce of another colony certain re-
strictions in the way of imposing duties and other
charges. One province, for example, Nova Scotia, im-
poses duties on the produce of New Brunswick when
imported into it. The spirit of the laws veto, that their
intercourse should be as free as that between Middlesex
and Surrey. According to the information that had
been received from time to time, and which had been
published in most of the colonial journals, and
brought before the colonial assemblies, the inter-
colonial restrictions had been the great cause
of complaint. The limitation of the trade and navi-
gation between the colonies and the mother country, and
between one colony and another, was introduced and
maintained under the principle of? these colonies being
considered integral parts of the empire, and that there-
fore the intercourse between them should be placed upon
the same footing as that between one part of the United
Kingdom and another part of the United Kingdom. As
far as the intercourse between one colony and another
and the United Kingdom was in question, he could not
venture to give any opinion as to any change, unless he
entered into a question that would not be relevant to the
one under consideration, that is, the question of the
whole colonial system. He believed, without entering
into the questioa of the colonial system, that we should
carry into effect that policy which would render per-
fectly free from interruption the intercourse between
every port and every British colony, and every port in
the British colonies, and place them on the most free
and unrestricted footing, as was the ease in the various
states in Germany under the Zollverein. With respect
to that portion of the navigation-laws concerning the
colonies, which limited the arrival of vessels, and the
admission of the vessels of certain foreign countries into
the British colonies; for example, we allowed vessels
from certain states in Europe to trade directly with their
cargoes from their own country to our colonies. We
allowed foreign countries with whom we had treaties of
reciprocity, and who had fulfilled certain conditions, to
proceed with their ships and cargoes direct t,) the Bri-
tish possessions, without paying any other duties than
those paid by British ships arriving in the colonies. There
were other countries, Spain for example, the trade of
which in carrying commodities to our colonies was con-
fined to the carrying trade from their own colonies.
They were not allowed to carry goods on the same terms
direct from Spain. The complaints and the injuries that
were stated to have been inflicted upon the colonies by
this restriction were that we allowed vessels of third
countries to bring cargoes from other instead of their
own countries. The American colonies had demanded
that the ships of foreign countries, arriving from their
own ports. should be permitted to bring their commodi-
ties into the colonies upon the same footing as British
ships. Complaints were made from the Canadas about
our not permitting the vessels of the United States to
descend the lakes lower than Montreal. The repre-
sentations made from the Canadas bore very strongly
upon that point, that we subjected them to great expense
by compelling the shipment of their cargoes at Montreal,
and not allowing them to proceed lower down to the
sea. Then, as far as regarded the restrictions upon the
arrival and departure of foreign ships, they appeared to
be the same as those which the previous questions and
replies would have shown were imposed on the arrival
of foreign ships in the ports of the United Kingdom. It
was his opinion that no possible disadvantage would be
experienced by the colonies from extending every facility
to their navigation that we might extend to the navi-
ption of all foreign countries-with Great Britain. This
he considered a totally different question from the
intercourse between Great Britain and the co-
lonies and between one colony and another. Com-
plaints had been made that a Spanish ship could
proceed from Newfoundland with fish to some port
in South America, and that it could not then pro-
ceed to a British colony, taking anything into it, for the
purpose of taking a return freight, not for the United
Kingdom, but for any port in Europe. Neapolitan ships
might take a cargo of fish from Newfoundland to Cadiz,
but they could not return to Newfoundland without first
proceeding to their own country. They could bring the
produce of their own country to any port in Europe or
in the United Kingdom, otteoeaßraiithist.h colony. The
indirect trade wasthes butubje not
of complaint.
Some questions were then put by
byiSirthHe St. Lawrence;
er
then trade
Committee owardDouglas
with regard to the American
but as it was four o'clock in the
adjourned, manot-
withstanding that Sir H. Douglas wished to continue the
subject.
Mr. Villiers suggested, as the matter wsaisrnuot.
Douglas
st
navigation-laws,ed,
ugcouafter the
ad-
journment.
to
tlidl continueuiry ihnitsothe question,n a vig

MEETING OF SHIPOWNERS.
A public meeting of parties interested in navigation
was held last evening at the Ea3tern Institution, Com-
mercial• road, for the adoption of measures in opposition
to the Bill now pending in Parliament on the subject of
the navigation-laws.
Mr. DUNCAN DUNBAR, the chairman of the General
Shipowners' Society of London, presided, and said that
he would not have consented to be present there if he
was not assured that they were demanding a
remark
ht te
which they were justly entitled. He might
hat the shipownlns had nothing to fear from any inquiry
rained in a right spirit. But how stood the case at
,resent? Why, a committee was formed of gentlemen
,r hose opinions were in print, and who had made speeches
on the subject, and who, had, therefore decided the
question before it coma to the jury. In that district

PRICE SD.

they were all more or less connected with shipping, per-
haps more so than the shipowners themselves.—(Hear.)
Thousands of persons in the Tower Hamlets were de-
pendent upon shipping, and if the intentions of the corn.
mittee were carried out, they would be utterly ruined.
Mr. G. F. YOUNG moved the first resolution:—" That
an inviolable adherence to the principles on which the
navigation-laws of Great Britain are founded is indis-
pensable to tho maintenance of an extensive national
marine as a nursery for the navy, and as a source of
supply of naval artizans, and that in the defence of those
laws, when atiacked, it is consequently the duty not
merely of those who are interested in maritime corn.
merce in its various branches, but of all who esti-
mate duly the importance of providing for the na-
dorml security, cordially to- unite." Mr. Young
explained at length the provisions of the existing
navigation system, more particularly dwelling upon the
protection afforded to the shipowner and the restrictions
imposed upon him. He maintained that the proposed
measures involved consequeriees it would be fearful to
contemplate. Some there attire who proposed to allow
foreign sailors to man the British navy, a course which
would be ruinous to this country. Others desired
that foreign competition might' e bought to bear upon
the British sailor, thus degrading -to the level of the
lowest maritime power upon the fd of the earth. He
found that the French paid 28s. a month to seamen ;
the Dutch, 11. 13s. 4d. -; the Prussians, 275. ; while the
Norwegians and others were as low as 16s. or 17s. per
month. Did they wish that the British sailors should
be brought down to that condition ?—(Loud cries of
" No, no.") The cost of victualling the men in England
was about 10d. per diem, whilst amongst the Norwe-
gians it was not more than three-halfpence. [Con-
siderable amusement was created at this stage of the
proceedings by the speaker producing several large
lumps of bread which he had brought from foreign
vessels. These he threw amongst the mee g, when
there was a general scramble for them.] .9ntended
that starvation or emigration must-be t *rose
measures.

Mr. GOULD seconded the resolution, and it was
unanimously adopted.
Mr. BENJAMIN Drxorr moved the second resolution:
—" That in the circumstances attending the appointment
of the Select Committee of the Honourable the House of
Commons, now sitting on the subject of the navigation-
laws, this meeting regrets to perceive great cause of
doubt and apprehension, and that the inhabitants of the
densely-populated district of the Tower Hamlets, within
the port of London, consisting principally of individuals
dependent for success, and even for subsistence, on
British shipping, or shipbuilders and shipwrights,
caulkers, blacksmiths, joiners, ropemakers, riggers, sail.
makers, anchorsmiths, mastmakers, and persons engaged
in similar shipping trades, and of the shopkeepers re-
ceiving profitable employment from their expenditure, it
is of the greatest importance that the sentiments of those
various classes on the subject should be promptly and
energetically expressed to Parliament."
Mr. JOHN ROBERTSON seconded the resolution, and it
was carried nem. dis.

On the motion of Captain HEATHON, seconded by Mr.
BROWN, it was agreed that petitions expressive of disap-
probation with the proposed changes in the navigation-
laws should be sent up from the meeting to the House
of Commons.

A vote of thanks to the chairman closed the proceed-
ings.

POOR-LAW FOR IRELAND.

Last evening a meeting of the rate-payers of the united
parishes of St. Andrew, Holborn, and St. George the Martyr,
was held in the hall of the workhouse, Gray's-inn-lane, " for
the purpose of considering the propriety of petitioning Par-
liament (in consequence of the increasing demands upon the
poor-rates, occasioned by the influx of Irish paupers into
those parishes) to pass at the earliest convenience a law for
the government of the poor of Ireland upon the basis of the
statute of the 43d of Elizabeth."

The chair was taken by Mr. Churchwarden TALBOT, who
said that the meeting had been convened in consequence of a
very numerously signed requisition which had been forwarded
to the authorities. The original circumstance which rendered
the meeting necessary was, that upon the making of the last
rate the amount required was found to be much larger than
ordinary, and in answer to the natural inquiries of the rate-
payers the guardians stated that the Irish paupers receiving
relief in this parish were to the English in proportion of 10 to
twelve. This fact was deemed so serious that steps were
taken which resulted in the present meeting. It appeared
that from the failure of certain crops the Irish were coming
over to this country in shoals, and at first descended upon
Liverpool; but the people of that town, finding they would spee-
dily be eaten up, were now, as he (the chairman) understood,
taking immediate steps to forward the paupers by train to
London and other large towns.—(o Hear," and laughter.)
Another consideration, in addition to the present pressure,
was that many Irish were inhabitants f these parishes,
and by a residence of five years would become entitled
to relief as parishioners during the rest of their lives. These
facts were of such grave importance to the interests of the
parish, that it was necessary to appeal to the Legislature to
provide an immediate and permanent remedy.—(Cheers.)
Mr. PtiltDAY moved the following resolution':—
"That this meeting views with alarm the prevailing dis•
tress in Ireland, where famine with pestilence, its invariable
attendant, is now raging to a most awful extent; and w' ile

this meeting feels every sympathy for their suffering fellow-
creatures there, they cannot but express an opinion that
much of the misery would have been obviated, if not wholly
prevented, had a roor-law, on the basis of that which was
passed for the relief of the English poor in the reign of Queen
. .

.
Elizabeth, been established in Ireland."
Mr. HUMPHREYS seconded the resolution, and said, that
although it was unjust to call upon the labour of England to
contribute to the support of paupers who ought to have
been enabled to claim and receive relief in their own
country—(Hear)—yet no guardian could take upon himself'
to remove the applicants to a land of dearth and famine.—
(Hear.) The only remedy was what ought to have been
enacted long ago—a perfect and efficacious poor-law for
Ireland.—(Cheers.) It was possible that in time England
might become the rival of Ireland in misery and distress,
by having the whole mass of the population of that island
thrown upon their funds, and if the rates were to go on
increasing as they had lately done to the extent of 30 per
cent.—(Hear.)

A guardian of St. Sepulchre's stated that during the past
three months in his parish not more than six fresh Irish
applicants had appeared for relief.

A guardian of St. Andrew's said, that, in consequence of
he increased number of applicants for relief, in order to save
lumen life from being sacrificed in the struggle to enter,
hey had opened another door and he was enabled to state
,hat the greater number were Irish.

The resolution was then put and carried unanimously.
Dr. WORTHINGTON proposed the second resolution, which
ran in a similar spirit, and expressed his opinion that the
great want was education in Ireland. With respect to the
influx of poor from Ireland, he had been informed by the
superintendent of the Mendicity Society that an Irishman
had applied for relief immediately on his arrival with his
family, and upon being asked how much he had paid for his
passage, replied 61.—(Hear.) In England the infirm and
able-bodied poor bad a legal right to relief, whilst in Ireland
the able-bodied alone received relief under the Poor Em-
ployment Act, and the infirm were left to starve without
any responsibility attaching to any one.
The resolution having been seconded, was then carried
unanimously.
A petition to Parliament was then agreed to, and, after a
vote of thanks to the Chairman, tie meeting (which was
numerously attended) broke up.

MEXICO.—The Mexican papers received by the
late arrival contain a decree of the Vice-President, in the
name of the Government, for the raising 15,000,000 dollars
to carry on the war with the United States, by the mortgage
or sale by public auction of the mortmain property of the
Church. The papers also contain a long remonstrance of the
clergy. One million of dollars of the new fund to be thus
raised is set apart for the purchase of arms.
PLYMOUTH, MARCH 10.—The schooner Flora,
Captain Pearse, left Charente on the 3d inst., and came in
yesterday with a full cargo of brandy, wine, and clover-seed,
for Plymouth and Exeter. Three British and twelve French
vessels were loading at her departure—one-fourth for Havre,
the remainder for British ports. 1,000 puncheons more this
year than last will be shipped for Bristol, and a proportionate
increase for the Clyde. British bottoms are scarce. Current
Freights—London, 305.; the Clyde, 40s ; Bristol, 455., and
10 per cent. There is more brandy for exportation now than
in 1846, and prices are gone back to those quoted before the
rise consequent upon the reduction of the British import
duty. The sib. loaf is sold for lf. (10c1.), but no appearace
of extreme poverty is visible at Charente.
SALE Or. THE GREAT WESTERN STEAM-SHlr.
Brarros, MARCH 11.—The Great Western steam-ship was
offered for sale by auction to-day, at the company's offices,
in accordance with public advertisement, but although she
was stated to have cost 63,000/., and to have been surveyed
by Lloyd's, and found in as good condition as the first day,
after having made 90 successive voyages, only 20,000/. was
offered for her, and she was withdrawn at, as was understood,
the reserve of 25,000 E
NORTH Or ENGLAND JOINT-STOCK BANK.—The
affairs of this establishment seem to be in a worse position
than was at first anticipated. It is understood that most,
if not the whole, of the directors, have largely overdrawn
accounts; that heavy advances have been made to other
parties upon securities not immediately available, and that
gigantic speculations in the corn trade have been sustained
by re-discounting, and the currency of bills payable at
twenty-one days.
THE LAST or THE COACHES.—The opening of the
railway from Salisbury to Bishopstoke- has been the signal
for the withdrawal of the only three coaches which ran
through Andover out of at least forty which but a few years
back daily ran through it. The Light Salisbury, well known
on the road for the last fiftyyears, dropped off on the Ist inst.
The Magnet, which has run for these last forty years, and the
Swiftsure both ceased to exist on Saturday last.
NEW BRUNSWICK AND NovA SCOTIA LAND COM-
rANL—The annual meeting of this company took place
yesterday, at the office, in Copthall-buildings ; John Moxon,
Esq., in the chair. The report was of rather a satisfactory
nature, as showing a gradual increase in the number of
settler on the company's lands, as well as the stock and
produce. The position of the company in 1846 was as fol-
lows :—Lands sold or granted to this time, 27,247 acres,
there remaining 533,170 acres. The surplus of expenditure
over receipts, for 1846, was 794/. 6s. 3d. In 1846, the num-
ber of settlers was 167. The produce of wheat was 1,020
bushels, of buck wheat 1,705, oats 9,663, barley 354, rye 10,
corn and peas 1111, potatoes 14,833, turnips 4,632 bushels,
hay 840 ;tons. The cattle was 497, horses 72, sheep 538
pigs 310. The new land was 476 acres, and landsploughedunani.
and stumped 235 acres. The report was adopted
mously.
PRIMROSE-HILL PARK.—Yesterday, the prepara-
tionswalks,
_
commenced for the formation of the ornamental
plantations, and shrubberies, into which Primrose-hill and
the recently enclosed ground at its foot is to be divided, ex-
tending from the Regent's-canal to the Swiss-cottage, Har-
row-road; the further erection of
houses
on this ground is
interdicted, government having determined,
healthy spot f the use of the public. to preserve this