The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-10 00:00:00

MORNING EDITION•

in the course of this Session, to see a similar benefit
conferred by this measure on the people of England.—
Hear, hear.) Ho apologized to the House for under-
taking a measure connected with a profession to which
be did not belong, but he had thot4ht much on the
subject, and being convinced of its great importance,
had felt it. to be his duty to undertake it.—(Cheers.)
Mr. EW ART hoped he might be allowed to express
an opinion on this subject, having been solicited by in-
dividuals in that part of Lancashire to -which he be-
longed to introduce a similar measure. /These Courts
existed, and were found very beneficial, in Scotland and
Ireland, and he hoped they would soon be established
in England. He, however, thought it would be better
not to prevent the Judges practising as barristers.
'there was one innovation in the Bill worthy of all
praise, namely, that the evidence of witnesses was not
to be limited by technical rules. Let a witness be
sifted as much as possible, but let his evidence be taken
Iptantion valeat. He should be glad to see, by way of
supplement to this measure, one for introducing a sys-
tem of stipendiary Magistrates throughout the country.
Colonel WOOD would caution the House to take
care 30 to limit the measure then before them, and the
number, and the appointment of the Judges, that the
new Courts would not be made instruments for admi-
nistering erielnal lustier?, while they were made the
means of recovering debts and adjudicating in civil
cases. He thought the two subjects should be kept
totally distioet. Generally speaking, however, he be-
lieved the proposed measure would be of great advantage
to the poorer classes of thr community.—( Hear.)
Mr. 1-IU.ME could not con reive how the adoption
of the measure could lead to the danger that eiminal
and civil jurisdiction would be confounded by its provi-
sions. He completely coincided is the views expressed
by his Hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Mr.
Ewart), and his only regret on that occasion was
that tt.e Bill did not go further than was pro-
pe,ed. The cheap and easy administration
of justice was en objet of the utmost importance to the
community at large ; and he certainly felt that the
measure just introduced would tend very materially to
secure that object.

Mr. HAWES was glad that the Bill had been
brought forward. He hailed the measure as a bold ef-
fort on the part o.c. her Majesty's Ministers to endea-
vour to lesien the costs of the law, and facilitate the
admit-.istration of justice. Numbers of sm dl debt
bills had been formsrly passed, almost every year,
through the House, each rendering the law more per-
plexed by introducing new princip!es. At present
there were innumerab!e small Courts, with various de-
grees of jurisdiction, the patronage of which was placed
in the bends of private individuals. He thought such
a system extremely injurious to the due administration
of justice ; and he hoped the rights of patrons would
not prevent the passing of the measure then before them.
Tae Hon. and G illant OMeer had given no reason for
his opinion, that the giving to these Judges criminal and
civil ju,isdic'ion would act injuriously. If in the me-
tropolitan districts they had competent Judges under
the Po'ice Act, why should they not have additional.
duties imposed upon them, if they had time to discharge
such duties ? He saw nothing injurious in such a plan,
and he thought the public, having gone to a very great
expense in the establishment of those Courts, were en-
titled to have them made as beneficial to the people as
possible. The vesting the appointment of Judges of
these Courts in the Lord Chancellor or the Lord Chief
Justice, would remove all objections that could be made
on the score of political patronage. That was a subject
which had been much discussed in the Committee, and
he understood the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
Pembroke to say that he had no oljection to
give the patronage of these Courts to the Lord Chan-
cellor, or the Lord Chief Justice, but that he would
prefer the Lord Chief Justice. Healso understood the
Right Hon. Gentlemen as having stood less for the
rights of the existing patrons. Now, if a great and
useful measure of this nature were opposed by Hon.
Gentlemen merely for the sake of preserving their pri-
vate patronage, it would give great support to the opi-
nion that that House existed more for private purposes
than for public benefit ; and he hoped that when the
question was next discussed,they should hear a greatdeal
less about the loss of patronage by private individuals
and a great deal more of the necessity of securing a good
administration of justice than they had done on former
occasions.

Mr. O'CONNELL thought that the want of that,
the introduction of which into the measure had been
deprecated by the Hon. Member for Middlesex, consti-
tuted its great evil. The Judges of these Courts
aught to possess both civil and criminal jurisdiction.
Let them look at the anomalous state of the law regu-
lating these Courts in the different countries. In Eng-
land by this Bill the Judge of the County Court had
civil jurisdiction only ; in Ireland he might possess
both civil and criminal jurisdiction ; and in Scotland,
where he had originally only criminal jurisdiction, civil
jurisdiction had been recently superadded ; so that in the
three different countries there were three different me-
thods adopted in the administration of justice. In many
Cases of civil trial it was necessary that the Judge should
have criminal jurisdiction, and nothing could be more
anomalous than this Judge half dead and half
alive, this paralytic Judge—(A laugh)—who was
alive on one side only—alive on the civil, but
dead on the criminal side.—(A laugh.) What
the Hon. Member opposite was afraid of was, that they
would interfere with the jurisdiction of the Magistrates.
(Hear, hear, from Colonel T. Wood.) In Scotland,
the Magistrates had very little to do he believed, and
that was just what they were fit fo--(A laugh)—and it
would be for the benefit of this country if the Magis-
trates here had also the same opportunity of indulging
in dignified leisure extended to them. An unpaid Ma-
gistracy was a perfect anomaly which had no existence
in any other county.—(Cheers.) The Magistrates'
Court could not, at all events, be considered as a poor
man's Court ; at all events he had never known an in-
stance in which the being rich had been a disadvantage
to a man before the Magistrates.—(Cheers.) He
thought it would be batter in all cases to leave the ad-
ministration of justice to paid and responsible authori-
ties.—(Cheers.) He was sorry to see that the Bill
proposed to give patronage to the Judges. The Lord

.
Chancellor was one of the Ministers of the day, remov-
able with the Ministry, and, therefore, the giving
patronage to him was, in tact, giving it to the
Ministry—but if they wished to devise a method for
spoiling the Lord Chief Justice, they could not possibly
invent one more effectual or more calculated to degrade
him into a political partisan than the giving him the ap-
pointment of the Judges of those Courts. The Bar at
present was quite subservient enough to the Bench.
Mr. Sergeant TALFOURD—No, no.
Mr. O'CONNELL—Not subservient enough ?

(Roars of laughter, in which Mr. Sergeant Talfourd
joined.) Now if they gave the Lord Chief Justice the
appointment of these Judges, they would have the entire
rising Bar subservient to him. Not a junior barrister
would express an opinion or take a part in any political
discussion until he had ascertained the opinion of the
Lord Chief Justice. lie hoped that in the progress of
the Bill some clause would be introduced to give the

.Judges of the County Courts criminal as well as civ
jurisdiction, in the same manner as was now exercised
by the Judges in the higher Courts, and he felt con-
vinced that the public would be highly benefited by
-having the criminal as well as the civil jurisdiction
brought home to their own doors.
Mr. WARBURTON hoped the provisions of that
Bill would provide for the proceedings and practice of
the Courts. He should wish to see the same proceed-
ings adopted in these Courts, as were adopted before
de Commissioners of Bankrupts, where both litigant
I arties were brought before the Judge and examined.
Mr. FOX M A ULE—It is so ; such arc the provi-
sions of the Bill.
Mr. WA R BURTON-oh, very well; then I have
nothin; more to say.
Mr. 0. KNIGHT trusted that he should never see
the day when stipendiary Magistrates should be placed
in the room of those who had so effectively performed
their duties, and administered the justice of the country.
He should be extremely jealous of any measure that
would have that effect. The Bill now before the
House was not of that character, and he hoped it
would not be followed up by any such measure as had
been suggested by the Hon, Member for Wigan.
Mr. VILLIERS supported the Bill. He believed
that nothing was so detrimental to large districts, as
baying unpaid Magistrates.
Mr. CRESWELL would be most anxious at all
times to render every assistance in his power to perfect a
measure that would give justice to the poor at a cheap
rate, but the great difficulty, in his opinion, was so to
frame a measure as to give satisfaction to those it Was
intended to benefit. Another point to which he would
refer, and which appeared to have been made a ground
of objection against the Bill, was the patronage given
by it to the Judges. He trusted that he valued the
integrity and independence of the bar as highly as any
man living ; but he entertained no apprehension that
that independence, or that integrity, would be at all
diminished if the patronage referred to by the Hon.
Member were given to the Lord Chancellor or to the
Chief Justice. The Hon. Member had said that the
bar was sufficiently subservient to the Judges already.
He (Mr. Cresswell) did not know whether he meant
by that to insinuate that they were too subser-
vient, but he defied any man who had been in
the habit of visiting Westminster Hall to substantiate a
charge of want of independence and integrity against
the members of the bar. It was their pride, that al-
though they felt a proper raspeet for those functionaries
who administer the law, yet they maintained perfect
independence and firmness in all that related to the
interest of their clients. Would any man pretend to
say that there had been any alteration of late in the
conduct of the members of the bar ? No one would
say so ; yet the Judges nad exercised considerable pa-
tronage in the appointment of revising barristers—
(Hear)—and he apprehended that there could be no
greater proof of the uprightness and independence of
the bar than was furnished by the fact that not the
least change had been produced in their political opi-
nions by the appointments of the Judges.--(Hear,
hear.) It Was the consciousness of their integrity and