The Sun.
London, England, 1840-07-07 00:00:00

CANADA CLERGY RESERVES BILL

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, before proceedlilt, with
the business of the evening, he wishedseo fulfil the expec-
tations he bad given rise to eith respect to the course he
meant to pursue with respect to the Clergy Reaerves.
I snswer to a question from the Hen. Member for New..
ask, he had stated that a proposition had been made by
the Archbishop of Canterbury, to which he could not ac-
cede, and he brought in the Bill then before the House.
Another proposition bed been made without Lae;er, been
asked for, and :Jur a commueication with the Cornniiioe
of the Geecral Assembly of the Church of Scotland, they
stated that they concurred in the proposition. The pro-
position was founded upon the opinion of the Judges do-
limed in the other House. That opiniot recognised a
right on the part of the Churchee of England and Scot-
land to share in the reserves, and by words they virtually
admitted that Christians of other denominations might
share in them, according to the Act of 1701. The propo-
sition made to him was to deal differently with the lands
which, had been sold under the Act of 182.7 from the re-
mainder. It was proposed that part should be given
absolutely to the Churches of England and of Scot-
land, in the proportion of two-thirds to the former,
and one-third to the latter.— ( hear.) It was
proposed further that the remaining three-fourths should
be divided into two equal parts, one to be divided as be-
fore betweeu the Churches of England and Scotland, end
the other part left to the disposal of the Governor-General
and his Council, generally for the purposes of religious
worship. With respect to the uncquel division between
the Churches of England and Scotland, it did not rest
upon any ground of superiority of that of England ovar
that of Seotland, but it wee so proposed, because the Posos-
byteriaos belouging to the Church of Scotland amounted
to only 40.000, while those belonging to the Church of
England were 80 000—the division then was fair in re-
; six:et of the rehttive numbers—the Presbyterians belonging
• to the &ceders, of course, would not participate in 400
part. reserved to the Government and Council. There was
another poiosition with respect to the fourth, already sold,
It was proposed, reverting to the principle which used to
Ore acted upon ell C. serced to by Parfament, but which was
changed in 1 S 3 I —that they should stop the diminution:Wet
now took place upon the failing in of lives, and that pay-
ment should be permanently guaranteed to the Churches
of England and Scotland. Tile amount now paid to the
Church of Er:gland was 77,0001.—t0 the Church if Scot!
hind /,osto/ Those sums were to be guaranteed, and r.hrr
fourth already sold was proposed as the fund for such gua-
rantee. It would be a hardship upon the inhabitants were
any more added to their burdens. That was the proposi-
tion made, and he thought it was one, looking at the
whole question of Canada government, which ought to he
acceded to. The Governor-General 'cent out with in.
structions to propose the measure of the Union,
but, at the same time, with full power, if he should
think it was impracticable, •r at all imexpedient,
to prepo,e some other plan in its place, giving his
reasons for any line of conduct he adepted.
Far from opposition, they had found that the measure was
received in both the proviecec.—(Hear.) When it was
introduced into this House, it was introduced on tho
ground that no other meaeure likely to ha secc.s,ful
v.oula be submitted to the Muse. The measure was
freely accepted by the House.—( Hear, hear.) Under
these circumstances the measure had in the first place the
concurrence of her Majesty's Government. It had the
coneurreece of his Noble Friend, the Member for Nor-
thumbsrland, who had always taken a clikep interest in
coldnial tiff zirs.—( Hear.) It had the concurrence of the
lion. Member for Coventry, who was ns well qualified as
any one to give an opinion upon the affairs of Canada.—
( Hear.) It had received the support of the Ilon. Mem-
bsr for Newark.—( Hear.) Subeequently that of his Noble
Friend, whe once held the situation which he (Lord J.
Russell) lied r oe. the honour of filling.—( Hear, hear.)
It !eel also the support of the Right Hon. Baronet, the.
Mareber for Tamtvoith, a gentleman who had formerly
hate the higlesst place in the councils of his Sovereign.—
( Hear, hear.) With such support the Bill passed that
Howe by a majority of 140 to 6.—( Hear, hear.) Ha
could not, therefore, on the present occasion, when another
measure relatingto Canada was coming before the House,
avoid wishing that it should obtain the same concurrence,
and that tire Canada Clergy Reserves Bill should be sent out
with the general concurrence of all parties in that
House.—( Hear.) He thought that if that Bill did not
pass, it would diseppoint the expectations which had been
raised in Canada, that the Parliament would be able to
settle the affairs of the colony in the present Session.
For although he did not think but some better measure,
than this would be, might have been introduced, yet he
thought it was of the highest importance that the Parlia-
ment should not appear to be partial or capricious upon
this question.—(Hear.) It might be said, that in the
present measure the Established Churches of England
and Scotland were treated with too much favour; but as
the ultimate success of the meaware in the colony must 4e-
pend greatly on the convenience of the authorities
of those two Churchas—and although he did not
think the propositions which he Lad received
were the best—yet, it was his intention to sub-
mit those propositions to the House on Thursday next.—
( Hear, hear.) He therefore moved that the Order of the
Day for the House going into Committee be now read,
for the purpose cf being postponed to Thursday neat. •
Sir R. PEEL said, that as referencatad been made to
Lis opinion on the question of the union, he
would take that opportunity of saying that his opinion
was unchanged—(Cheers)—and he hoped that the
present Bill would be dealt with by the House in an equal
spirit.—( Hear, hear.) Ile thought that the proposhriens
of the Reverend Prelate, the Archbishop of Canterbury,.
were such as called for the concurrence of all parties, by
their moderation and justice, in the demands which be
made for the reserves for the Church of FAO:lnd.
( Hear, hear.) As the Church of Scotland had been db.
Glared by the Judges of the land to be included in the de-
scription of an Established Church, what the A•chbishop
required was, that one-half of the future sale should be re-
served for the too Churches. But, as there was a differ-
ence of the population connected with thoste•Churches, the,
distribteion of the reserves should be regulated by that
dispropnrtion. In all his (Sir R. Peel's) communica-
tions with the Members of the Church of Scotland, they
agreed thst it was the best way to settle the question per-
mancntly how, according to the present proportion of the
population of the two Churches.—(Hear.) He thdight
those propositions were recommended by their moderati•ost
and justice.—( Hear, hear.) Nothing would be more to be
aatte
in
reegarre. t e dlthhe question
n tlre postponement o
settledthis mb
by
a Parliaments ure— ( leaien,
h
the present session, as it would be the first to which the
United Legislature of Canada would have to address
itself upon meeting.—(hear.) It w
a stherefore
Lord acquiesced
a e
of satisfaction to hint that the
Nob le
the propositions made on the part of the Church of Eng-
land. He hoped the House would discuse the measure in
the same spirit as it had discussed the Bill for the union,
and that both measures would pass into a law with the ge-
neral concurrence of both Houses of Parliament,—( Hear.)
Mr. C. HULLER said, he did not exactly understand
the mede in which the
dfriostn therkihutioNn'‘bTlaes tLo(jrbcd:rn' satdaetetl'oletnhie various sects.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that what was proposed was
to leave that matter to the Governor-General and the
Executive Council. As some Gentlemen opposite had
expresser) a determination to raise the question whether
Roman Catholics should participate, he thought it was
better not to provoke the discussion, but to leave the mat-
ter in a general way to the discretion of the 'Governor and.
Council. .

RVRNTIN't4

The Order fcr the House going into Committee was
ce read, and the Committee was postponed to Thursday

next.
COMMERCE AND NAVIGATION-TREATY

WITH AUSTRIA.
Mr. LABOUCHERE broUght up a Report of the
Committee on Commerce and Navigation.
Mr. HERRIES was surprised that the measure to
which the papers now brought up had reference should be
introduced without a single explanation. The Right
Hon. Gentleman ought not to come forward to ask the
House to set aside the navigation laws of this country with-
pot any other explanation than that it was for the purpose
of carrying into effect a treaty with Austria Was it to be
left to that (the Opposition) side of the House to explain
the errors and blunders which her Majesty's Government
had committed in this extraordinary case ?—( Hear, hear,
ar ea laugh.) But as the Right Hon. Gentleman did not
tilt:li it necessary to explain the history of that imprudent
transaction in diplcmacy, it would devolve on him to do so.
Two years ago a treaty was entered into with Austria, in
the objects of which all who took a just view of the inte-
rests of the country must concur ; but that contained two
articles, the 4th and sth. which differed from the treaty
formerly entered into by Lord Aberdeen. These ankles
were inconsistent with the laws of the land. The 4th ar-
ticle was in direct violation of the navigation laws;
the sth WAS at variance with them. A clause was
indirectly introduced (in an Act for another purpose.)
to get the Government out of their difficulty
in respect to the 5,11 article: but by the 4th
article it was provided that Austrian vessels should De al-
lowed to import into all English ports the produce of the
countries along the Danube, tram Galati, in the same way
as fray Austrian ports. Ia the concluding part of the ar-
ticle it was stated that Austria in return should place Eog-
lish vessels on the same footing with Austrian, in the ports
upon the Danube, from Galata downwards. But thst was
a concession which Austria had not the power to make, as
those ports belonged to Turkey. When this glaring error
was pointed out in the other House of Parliament the
Noble Lord at the head of her Majesty's Government ob-
served that it was certainly very absurd, but that a treaty
would be entered into with Turkey, to make Austria
make good her part of the contract. But when the
Noble Viscount the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, to a hose
department the subject belonged more immediately, was
asked respecting the proposed treaty with Turkey, the Noble
Lord replied that no such thing was contemplated—drat it
was not necessary. The navigation laws did not prohibit
Austria at present from importing into this country Aus
stria:; produce from any ports. But the effect of this
article NV'iS to allow Austrian vessels to do that which the
navigation laws prohibited—to import the produce of
t ter, perhaps of hostile countries, and from hostile
ports. What the House was now to be called on to do,
was to give her Majesty's Government the power of de-
ciding, in defiance of the navigahon leave, what ports
should be considered the some as national ports in respect
to,Austsia. Bat if that concession were made to Austria,
and in return for a supposed equivalent, which it tv: s not
in her power to give, other nations, who had the right, by
treaty, to be placed up 'n en equal footing with
the most favoured nation, would demand to be
pl aced on an equality wilt Austria in this respect
II was only sorry that the Right Hon. Gentleman had
not rendered it unnecessary for him to have detained the
House at such length, by himself explaining the necessity
of the Bill. He must say that the treaty, as it now stood,
was very much it f -rior to the one which preceded it
e. LABOUCHERE con'essed that he wanted the
Muse to hear the charge, befwe they heard the defence ;
therefore it was that he hat taken the course he had done
in brino'ner oa the Bid. Had he made any statement,
the Right Hon. Gentleman would have made his charge,
and he ( Mr. Labouchere) would have no opportunity of
answering him. He did not wonder the Right Hon. Geo-
Ilona!) wished him to have taken a different course, Is-
cause a speech so full of fallacies, so grossly exaggerated,
it had never been his fortune to hear. Under the treaty in
question the commerce of the country had greatly in-
creased, and that was some consolation for the hard words
thrown at him by the Right Hon B aronet ; under it coin-
tnerce might and would extend indefinitely, and the corn-
me.rcjal world was satisfied with it. He had no claim tc
praise for it, as it was the work of ilia Noble Friend the
Secretary for Foreign Atiiira, and Mr. P. Thomson,
whose absence from the councils of the country he de-
plored. The Right Hon. Gentle:nail had said the Treaty
wee, with some slight exceptions, the same as that entered
into with Austria by Lord Aberdeen ; he would prove it
was materially different from that which was merely a
corer-eon reciprocity Treaty. to the first place, it was now,
far the first time, confirmed by the Treaty that English
!ships corairg from any part of the world should be ad-
enitted into Austrian ports—a most important boon to our
cariemerce, end most anxiously looked for—that was a most
imoortant difference from the Treaty of Lord Aberdeen.
Anotaer difference was, the great alteration of the Aus-
trial tariff, made at the same time, and in consequence of
the Testy, and prohibition was entirely strut:is out of
that t oil, a very great boon conferred upon our manufac-
tures, because the duties upon many articles of our pro_
aluction had been greatly reduced. They must look at the
Treaty in cmnection with such reductions, and then he
"mold say, that a more important Treaty, and one more
beneficial to the interests of this country, had never been
laid on the table, or one more entitled to the assent of the
House. It was impossible for him to give any account of
the quantity of goods which went into Austria through the
Elbe, but the number of British ships in the year 1837;
Vie year before the signing of the treaty, which entered
Austrian ports was ninety-seven, tonnage 17,388. In
1838, the year after the Treaty came in force, the
number of vessels rose to 164, and the tonnage 28,6 '9,
a great incense, and it was to be expected that it would
still further increase. He was glad to hear what had
fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet respecting the in-Tor-
twee of :maintaining a good understanding with foreign
nations, and especially with Austria. He entirely agreed
with bOn, and he thought there could be no stronger link
;set- eet, rny two countries than those of commerce, and
frasndla relations arising therefrom.—( Cheers. ) Then
the Han. Gentleman complained that concessions
!'('CO grade to Austria inconsistent with the storit of the
Navigation Laws. No doubt such was the case—there
were two articles—the first Article 4, by which Austrian
vessels were allowed to import cargoes from ports in Asia
or Afrca, presided they had been landed in Austrian ports;
that was against the spirit of the navigation laws, but as the
Right lion Gentleman had admitted that it was necessarily
so, and did not complain din he would not detain the House
by urther defence regarding it. Then the other point was
.14 c that they had admitted a cargo of corn in an
Austrian vessel, which was against the Navigation Laws—
ag ainst their spirit, yet, they had not come before Parlia-
ment to explain their conduct, and ask for its sanction to
the act. That vessel arrived only a week after he be-
came. President of the Board of Trade ; he looked at the
'Treaty, and filleting that we were obliged to allow the
ship entrance, he at once advised the Treasury to admit
the eareo, which was done. But they must bear in mind,
that. British vessels were admitted to Austrian ports upon
the 'ante terms, and the Right Hon. Baronet was far wrong
ea he a he thought it was the intention of the Gave:o-
r:cot to allow the present Session to pass without
calling the attention of the House to the cane, and asking
their sanction to the Treaty, which, although aaainst the
wordy, was exactly in the spirit of the Navigation Laws.
The progress of steam navigation had rendered a new sys-
tem necessary.—( Hear, hear.) He had shown that the
Treaty was most advantageous to the country, that it was
founded upon just principles; and its practical results
had already been most beneficially felt. He had a
right therefore to congratulate the country upon this
Austrian Treaty, for it would prove a stimulus to other
countries to join in similar treaties, and he knew no
greltor security that could be given for the peace of
the world, than that all national jealousies arising from
restrictions on commerce, should give way to a more en-
lightened and liberal policy.—( Cheers.)
Mr. BERRIES explained.
Ir. COLQUHOUN was bound to make the acknovs-
ledgsnent that great credit was due to the Government for
the general spirit of the treaties with Austria.--( /leer,
bear.) But where there was a country where food and
labour was low, it was impossible that our commercial
marine could ever benefit so much as the opposite party,
and that was shown in the returns which lie had moved
tor, and which were now on the table. There had been
a total increase of tonnage outwards and inwards, between
. reciprocity countries, of 458 per cent. of which Britain has
gained 148 per cent., and foreign countries 310 while
in the non-reiprocity countries there would have peen an
increase of 453 per cent., of which Britain had
gained 273 per cent., and foreign countries 280 per
.cent. He therefore contended that reciprocity treaties,
if confined to shipping alone, were defective; because
this country in its commercial marine, could not compete
wall other countries, where provisions and wages were
low. He was aware, however, that the Austrian treaty,
extended to manufactures, and in that respect it was not
to be open to the objection that previous treaties were
subject to. But he was not able to understand why the
noble Lord had not followed up Mr. M'Gregor's advice,
and come to a similar treaty with Turkey, by which the
difficulties relative to Austrian ships might have been ob-
viated. He must, however, state that the treaty had been
left in such an imperfect state, that anyinotrpiegruaefrom
foreign influence in the Court of Turkey in tin
the principalities, might lock up that part of the Danubegon
against Austrian or British ships, and leave their boasted
treaty still more ludicrous than it had been described.
The subject, in his opinion, had been very properly
brought before the attention of the House by his Right-
Hon. Friend, before the close of the Session, and he hoped
the attention of her Majesty's Government had been called
to the subject, that it would receive their careful consi-
deration, and that these points, which had been thrown out
during the discussion, would not be overlookedby them.
Mr. HAWES thought if the Government were to
blame at all it was for i of having brought in a Bill on the
subject of the Navigation Laws. The treaty of Vienna
was of the greatest value, and he hoped the subject of
river navigation would lave more attention paid to it than
it bad hitherto received. The reason he approved of the
Austrian Treaty was that it wisely restricted the Naviga-
tion Act, and
he for one could not admit that the Naviga-
tion Act was wise in principle for a great country like
this. That Act had been adopted merely from jealousy of
a rival country, and not for the purpose of extending the
navigation of England.
Mr. A. CHAPMAN contended that the effect of these
treaties was to increase foreign tonnage and to diminish
the tonnage of British shipping. The period of prosperity
of the shipping interests was from 1816 to 1822, before
those unfortunate treaties were entered into. He did most
earnestly intreat the Government to pause, and not further
to alter the Navigation Laws.
Mr. S HEIL observed that before the treaty no British
ship could go to tin Austrian Fort, except from a British
port ; but now British vessels could enter an Austrian port
from any port in the world. In that respect, therefore,
the treaty had effected a change—in that respect it was
original, and the Hon. Member fur Harwich must admit
that a change had been made for the better. In the year
1839, out of 144 British ships, 59 availed themselves of
the treaty. We bad given to Austria an advantage con-
fined to the river Danube, but Austria had given to us an
Advantage that extended to the whole world.—( Hear. )
Sir E. SUGDEN did not rise to discuss whether the
treaty was good or bad, but he submitted that if the