The Sun.
London, England, 1824-03-16 00:00:00

PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, MARcii 15.
PETITIONS.
Earl SPENCER presented a petition front Shepton Mallet,
for the total abolition of Slavery.
Earl GROSVENOR presented two petitions from Chester,
praying for the Repeal of the Duties on Publican's Licenses.
The Bishop of EXETER presented a petition from Truro,
against Negro Slavery.
The Earl of CARNARVON presented a petition having
the same object.
Viscount CLIFDEN presented one from Leicester, signed
by 7,000 persons, praying
for the gradual abolition of slavery.
Also one from Cornwall, and one from Rutlandahire, having a
similar object.
IRISH TITHES.
Viscount CLIFDEN then observed, that he had petitions of
a different kind to preeent from several Parishes in the County
of Kilkenny, praying that the Commutation of Tithes Bill be
repealed. The Bill having failed on this principle—the averages
were taken much ton high. The averages were from twenty.
five shillings a barrel of wheat -to forty-four shillings.—The
medium was thirty-six shillings a barrel, which never could
answer. The Noble Viscount called the attention of the House
last year to the tithe question. There never was anything so
unjust as the mode of deciding tithe questions, or the Bishops
Courts. The struggle was between the tithe owner and the
wretched peasant who occupied five or ten acres. Peace would
never be in Ireland till the system was altered. Parliament
ought to recollect that two Churches were laying on the loins of
that country. His hope was, that their Lordships would see
the justice and policy of taking measures to pacify Ireland,
and thereby make it a mine of wealth. The petition upon ex-
amination appeared informal, and the Noble Viscount with-
drew it.
The other petitions were severally read, and laid on the
table.
Mr. FAURE T„ from the East India Dock Company, presented
an Account of the Receipts and Disbursements of that esta-
blishment.
Earl DARNLEY presented a petition from Meath, in the
county of Glamorgan, against Slavery. Also one from the
Mayor and Corporation of Penryn having the same object.
INDEPENDENCE OF SOUTH AMERICA.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN, before opening the business
of the evening, wished to know whether any answer had yet
been received to Mr. Canning's last Dispatch, dated the 30th
of January?
The Earl of LIVERPOOL had no hesitation in saying, that
there had been no official answer to that Dispatch.
The Order of the Day having been read,
The Marquis of LANSDOWN rose, pursuant to his no-
tice, to move an Address, praying his 'Majesty not to delay
his recognition of the independence of the South American
States. In offering a few remarks on this subject, he felt
that it was not in his power to do more than to present
an imperfect sketch of the great interests connected with the
question : but if he was oppressed by its magnitude, he had no
hesitation with respect to the object of the policy which he had
to recommend to their Lordships. If he had any apology to
mike, it was not for precipitation
on his part, but for having
so long
delayed to bring on this important question. His
reasons Would be found in the events which had occurred on
the European Continent, and in Spain itself, and which had
made it manifestly improper to introduce the subject during
the height of the struggle. It was now four years since lie had
submitted a proposition respecting the Foreign trade of this
country, at a periodof great public distress. He had then stated
his views with respect to the removal of all restrictions upon
trade, and he was glad to find that other persons had now be-
come more sanguine as to the practicability of carrying them
into effect. He had pointed out the South American provinces
as the source to which their Lordships were entitled to look for
relief not only to England, but to the world still stiffitring from
the effects of the contest, which had destroyed in some countries
the very elements of prosperity.
wouldtlave been ungenerous and
More so in an individual
to interfere, for such an interference mightf have been cou-
o the misfortunes of
li a d
unbecominglt tt te ly affectedinth at
House,tain at
nws
the present Session, he
would have been prepared to bring forward a motion upon
sstpr ua
Spain.
into
A t
athwe
that subject, had lie not then understood that a proposition had
wish
commencementt o take
been made by England to Spain to whichucti an answer might
ro
be expected. But when after the 1 on of the Pa e
t
laid before the House, he found his confirmed Pend
sentiments, strengthened by arguments and open Yviewstiments, stated more ably
than he could have done, for he was ltappy to say that in these
documents lie saw much to applaud, I with one exception
very little to condemn, he thought ;1111i-(nself entitled to call
upon their Lordships. to agree to an Address praying for
the immediate recognition of South American independence.
In doing this, he felt relieved front the only embarrassment
under which he had suffered ; for
though he had reason to
believe, from the explanations occasionally by the
Noble given le
Noble Earl opposite that this country was unfettered, and, in-
deed, it would have been an impeachment of the understand-
ing of his Majesty's Ministers to Sup ose that they had hound
up the fortunes of the country with P
tits views and intentions
of other Powers which were known to be te to ours,
it was still more satisfactory to find pposite
by the language of the
Papers on tile table, that we had
not only entertained but ex-
pressly laid claim to that independent course of action which
it was most important for this country to pursue. The consi-
deration for their Lordships was. g an no-
a country offering
im-
mense extent of territory and Population, embracing from
37 degrees of North to 41 degrees of South latitude, exceeding
in magnitude the whole Continent of Africa, and the whole
Russian empire. European as well as Asiatic, under circum-
stances of climate so diversified as to yield every species of
production calculated for human enjoyment. And this coun-
try was already peopled by twent-
y one millions of inhabitants,
composed, it was true, of different races, but proved not to be
inconsistent with social order and felicity, and presenting in
every scattered point the seeds of future greatness. It was such
a country that their Lordships were now called upon to recog-
nize in the form of an independent State. Two points must be
first considered—whether they possessed the right of making
sncli an acknowledgment, and whether it would be expedient
to use it. He mentioned the right, because thought the recog-
nition should be attended with immense advantages, he should
never stand up to recommend the adoption of a policy incon-
sistent with principle. Right was paramount to all expe-
diency. It ought to direct the conduct of nations, and every
attempt to depart from it could not prove otherwise than dis-
astrous. He knew of no other basis to try the question ofright,
but to consider, let, whether the South American Sitates were
de facto independent ; 2dly, whether there was any prospect
that the old Government of Spain should be able to recover and
repossess them ; and 3dly, whether they were in that state which
would enable them to maintain the relations and duties of
amity which ought to exist between independent States. With
respect to the first, the de facto independence of the Spanish
Colonies, hardly a question could be raised, except with re-
gard to one of them. As to the second, whether Spain pos-
sessed the means of reconquering them, he should only implore
their Lordships to look at the state and duration of the contest,
and the different members of the great confederation now
united to maintain the independence of the South American
Continent, and to resist by force any attempt to restore the
ancient dominion of Spain. He should take those States one
by one. In Mexico, which contained 7 millions of inhabit-
ants, and extended from sea to sea; for the last two years there
had not been found one Spanish soldier, except a garrison of
400 men in the Castle of St. John of Ulloa, detached from
the land, and by its situation able and likely to hold out some
time longer. In Guatimala, which was the next State towards
the South, there was not one Spanish soldier. In Colombia,
which extended from the Orinooco to the Isthmus of Darien,
after a series of contests which had lasted thirteen years, and
since the reduction of Porto Cavello last autumn, there was
not one Spanish soldier. In the State of Buenos Ayres, for
the last twelve or fourteen years, no attempt had been made
by the Government of Spain to shake the established order ; and
the state of the public feeling in that country might be ascer-
tained by the fact, that although there had been changes of
Administration or Government, in no one of them had the
least disposition been manifested to call in the power of the
Parent Country. In Chili, for the last four years, not a
Spanish soldier had existed, except in a small island on the
coast, which had an European garrison. In Peru, public events
had revealed that a considerable party existed in favour of Old
Spain. There was still in that province an army of 7,000 men
under an able leader, who had even obtained some successes
in consequence of misconduct in some of his opponents. But
that army, unassisted by Spain, could not extinguish the inde-
,

pentlence of Peru, supported as it was by the presence of Ge-
neral Bolivar, who had carried with him all that genius and
vigour which had distinguished his administration in Colombia,
and had formed a close compact between the two countries.
Such was the state of those colonies. Was it within the range
of human possibilities that after their independence had been
established for fifteen years, they should ever return under the
domination of a power, not only as Spain now was, but as she
must continue to be for twenty years to come ; and that a
population of ten millions placed under such circumstances,
should be able to subdue one of seventeen millions, fresh in
the possession of national independence ? With respect to
the third point, whether those States were able to maintain re-
lations of amity and commercial intercourse with the other
spuoewde,rsi,v
without
usltio
diii
sl de
ucssoinnsgidte t
hr
eile co
their
constitutions.ndu et which
Whenthey had pu
he found
them described by Prince Polignac in the papers on the table
as in a state of anarch, and presenting nothing solid, but
false and dangerous theories, he must refer to their real
situation to spew that the/ had proceeded on a sound principle
of Government calculated to give solidity to a State. It was
easy to assert that false and dangerotts theories prevailed, and
that nothing was fixed in a country. The Grand Seignor
might say as much when speaking of the French Charter, and
if he adverted to the changes which that Charter had under-
gone, he might find as many good arguments to prove his as.
sertion as the French Ambassador to assail the Constitutions
established in South America: When he (the Marquis of L.)
looked at that of Colombia, he found it resting on the two
principles which their Lordships would be likely to recommend
as its most proper basis, property and education. It spewed
a disposition to exclude the multitude from taking a share
in the Government, which would be dangerous in a new State,
and it made the right of electing representatives dependant
on the possession of land. A system of universal paro-
chial education had been established, and was in force
throughout the country, and since the exclusion of the Spa-
niards there had not been a single soldier employed in the
police of the whole State for the last two years, without any
violation of order, or of the public peace having been com-
mitted on that account. "But that was not all. The Colombian
Government had manifested to the world its power of carrying
into effect a most important regulation. It had provided for the
gradual extinction of slavery throughout its own dominions,
and he would ask the Noble Secretary for the Colonial Depart-
ment whether that was not accomplishing a task of more than
common difficulty ? A regular establishment had been formed
throughout Colombia, and a tax set apart for the gradual ma-
numission of slaves. All children born of them were to he
born free, and the arrangement had been so satisfactory,
that not only no murmur had been heard, and no opposition
raised, but it had been attended with a considerable emancipa-
tion of slaves, voluntarily made by the masters themselves.—
This was highly honourable to the Colombian Government,
and placed it high amongst those of civilized nations. But the
French Minister asserted, that that country was so torn with
dissensions, so filled with dangerous theories, and in such a
want of solidity, that it was impossible to think of recognising
its independence. Now there was a safe barometer of the solidity
of a country—he meant public credit. How stood that barome-
ter ? There happened to be perpetually sitting in the City of
London a Jury impannelled to try that question most fairly,
for it was not carried away by any political bias, any monar-
chical, aristocratical, or republican doctrines, but was most
perfectly and philosophically free irons absurd and dangerous
theories. On consulting this Jury, he found that the value of
the Colombian and other South American Debt or Stock fluc-
tuated between 67 and 82, and on looking at the state of the
stock of that ancient Government of Spain, from which all so-
lidity was said to proceed, he saw that it was on Saturday last
at 18 and 22 ! But as it might be said that that was the stock
which Ferdinand had recognized with a mental reservation
for future denial, he had looked at the price of the old
legitimate debt of Spain, not in this country, for it did
not appear to be marketable here, but in the market of
Amsterdam, and had found it not to exceed 51 or 52, whilst
the Government of Chili obtained 82 for its stock all over
Europe, in proof no doubt of the dangerous and dreadful
theories which destroyed its solidity and its credit. Tl'ere the
South American States, he would ask, in such a condition as
to justify any European country in attempting to alter their
Constitution ? We had been invited to confer on that sub-
ject ; but if it were once admitted that Europe had a right
to interfere to give a monarchical form to those Constitutions,
let it be recollected that there existed a great and mighty
Power on the other side of the Atlantic, the United States
of North America, which would have the same right, and one
sanctioned by greater propinquity, to interfere in order to
not
was c
01 enaer
wt hi
taht twh
1. the
et shht
ea
itnre
es i
it
noh
(fel
ert
ph
Eeonsndegelcnaocnuedn
onces
as
established, bring the new States back to the principles and forms of de-
whether its exercise
GovernmentlVaslt
ter fere ? T h ei
it
rriegnht
at i
noefd r etcoo gni sconsiderin g
would be likely to involve this country into quarrels with
other States. He did not believe that one instance existed
in which the recognition of a de facto povernment had been
made a ground for quarrels. There were two great and strik-
ing examples to the contrary. When the United Provinces of
Holland had shaken off the Spanish yoke, this country had
acknowledged their independence and formed treaties with
them during a period of 60 years, during which the old Go-
vernment of Spain had delayed acknowledging them, and had
in fact not clone so till the peace of Westphalia. In 1641
the Cortes had declared the Duke of Braganza King of Por-
tugal, and in the ensuing year this country, under Charles the
First, had concluded a treaty. with Portugal and the House of
Braganza, in which their independence was acknowledged,
without any war or quarrel with Spain. The Noble Marquis
then directed the attention of their Lordships to the state of the
old world, to see whether it did not present inducements for us
to strengthen them ourselves by establishing closer relations
with South America. Let them not deceive themselves, and
imagine that this country was placed in the same situation with
respect to other Powers as before the French Revolution. It
was then her policy to connect herself with one of the great
military States of Europe, that in case of war she should be the
better able to resist the aggressions of more powerful neigh-
bours, and to maintain the balance of the Continent. Now all
was changed. Not one, but all the military Powers of Europe
were engaged in a confederacy, on principles to which this
country never had been and never could be a party. It was
no longer a question whether by connecting herself with
Russia, Austria, or Prussia, she could counterbalance the
rest: amongst all the Powers there was not one with whom
she could unite ; this was proved by the language of their
own declarations, and the principles on which they acted.—
on o
interfere
States,
In time of peace they maintained seven hundred thousand
bayonets, and thus controuled all the proceedings of every
thisotinoenawnodift without leaving
protect
st
theem i
uha(ain(eiyp
beene
n d possibilityeneindependence
dailyof
un-
folding ..r
sof. country tThehe m
consequencesti
themselves during the last four or five years. Italy
had been overrun, and was occupied by the arms of Austria,
Spain by those of France, and every one of those countries
was subject to have its Government overturned without any
remedy, or any power on the part of this country to inter-
fere, except by expressing its pity. She must, therefore,
look for an increase of power; that increase would be found
in an extension of trade, and that extension in a more intimate
connection with the States of South and North America. Of
the effects already produced by our trade with South Ame-
rica there were tangible proofs in various returns before the
House. In the first year in which the trade had been opened
with that country our exports had amounted to 3,227,0001.
In the next year they had increased six hundred and forty
thousand pounds ; and though the accounts for 1823 had not yet
been made up, he had reasons to believe that the augmentation
was still more considerable. What therefore might be their
increase were those countries established in the full and recog-
nised enjoyment of their independence ? An additional proof of
the benefit arising from that trade was the fact, that a year and
an half after it had been opened, coarse linen had been ex-
ported from the South of Ireland to South America, and an
unhappy and dense population, hitherto without any resources
of its own, had been rendered industrious' and quiet by admi-
nistering to the wants of the people on the ether side of the
Atlantic. The Noble Marquis then contended, that as the sepa-
ration of the United States of North America have proved a
1 source of increased prosperity and commerce to this country,the
independence of South America might yield the same benefit
to Spain. He held in his hand proofs of what he was advan-
cing. They were returns of the exports of this country to North
America during the eight years preceding the Revolution which
had separated the two countries, and during the other eight
years which had followed the last war with the United States,
a period which left us nothing to regret but the dissension which
had existed, and the ill-blood which he trusted bad ceased
Ito exist between the two Powers. Our Exports to North
America for the eight years from 1766 to 1773 inclusive: assist .

ed by all these restrictions and monopolies -of which we were'.
happily getting rid, were 2,441,0001, • In the last -eight-yeara
they amounted to 6,905,800/. Our commerce with those•coun.
tries in a state of independence, and.the wealth resulting from
it, were therefore three times greaterthan when therwerecolo-
nies and dependencies of ours. This showed how false the •eo.
lonia] principle frequently was when applied to the supposed
prosperity of the mother country. On the more fertile soil of
South America the benefits of trade might he expected
crease still more rapidly. The population of the United-States
had augmented in fifty years from two or three millions to. ten-
millions. That of Mexico and South America being at present
twenty.one millions might he expected to increase in the same
Mimi of time to fifty or sixty millions ; for the progress of the
Population would be quickened by the comparatively small:
number of Slaves in that quarter, and the regulations adopted!
for their emancipation. After having viewed the question under
all its bearings, he would ask their Lordships whether there was-
any room for hesitation to adopt the course of policy which 'he
was proposing ? He might perhaps be told, and it was indeed •
the sole argument that could be used, that if he was satisfied,
with the language held by his Majesty's Government, and their
conduct in leaving the question open, he should acquiesce-, its
some further delay. But if their Lordships were satisfied as/
to the questions of right and of expediency, and as to the pro■
priety of using that right, he called upon them to give the states
of South America the benefit of a full recognition at the
moment when they most needed it. Though he believed they ,
would succeed without it, yet it might serve to compose dis-
sentious within them, and to augment their weight with other,
Powers. Why linger on the threshold when entrance was
justified by every right, and invited by every state ? Why not
assist at the birth of their independence, and become connected
with the first sentiments of gratitude which it would inspire ?
By no conduct on the part of any European Power could that
independence be prevented. Could Spain, situated as she was
in the occupation of a foreign army, and long after it should
hare ceased, make any successful attempt to recover posses-
sion of those immense regions, and to re-enthral that population .
which had drunk the watemof immortality and tasted the en-
nobling joys of freedom ? As well could she turn their mighty
streams that flowed towards the ocean back to the snowy
mountains from whence they proceeded, as to prevent civill-
. zation and independence from spreading from ocean to ocean,
from mountain to mountain, over the whole extent of that
vast continent. But though open hostility might not be resort-
ed to, concealed attacks, which certain Governments did not
disdain to employ, might be used against the South American
States. This would not prevent, but it might embarrass and
retard their consolidation. It was for the purpose of strength-
ening them against such insidious attacks, and giving them
sanction and stability, that lie proposed his present motion, con-
sidering it the best mode for England to adopt, and the fairest
tewards the European Powers, to propagate her course by
her acts, and to leave them to pursue their own. The Noble
Marquis then stated that the only part of the Docunatnts laid
before the House to which he objected, was that in which this
country was pledged not to form any political connection with
the States of South America}. He did not wish to prejudge
what might or might not be the kind of political connection
which should be established ; but lie did not see why this coun-
try should bind itself to the Government of France in this par-
ticular,
yla:ra,orbtnieciofAtito: those
Marquis
urm any arrangement which she might please.
It was with great satisfaction lie repeated, that was the
Papers,
concluded
representing,i moving vam
ey
an humble
h theum opinionble A d-
of his IVlajesty's Government, with which he was dissatisfied.—
Ad-
dress, thanking his Majesry for his gracious communication of
the Papers before the House, and praying that he might be
pleased, without delay, to recognize the independence of those
Countries in South America which were already free, and to
establish with them relations of amity and diplomatic inter.
cours e.

The Earl of LIVERPOOL was most happy to be able to
concur with the general principles which the Noble Marquis
had laid down in the first part of his speech. If he had any
surprise to express it was that the Noble Marquis, when he en-
tered into details and came to apply those principles, appeared
not to have a clear notion of their nature. He trusted be should
be able to prove this inconsistency as he proceeded ; but in
the mean time he thought it advisable to clear away those
practical
he wan
experience.
e ready
to
admit
Hei
t
parts of the ground upon which there was no difference of
opinion between the Noble Marquis and himself—and he might
add with any tnan of sound
and
would not follow hint through the details of the exports and
imports with Spanish America, because l
that there was no commerce more important to this country, and
more connected with its best interests, than that which existed
between Great Britain and the States of America, whether in
the North or the South of that Continent. But there was One fel-
lacy in the principle which had been built upon this circum-
, stance, into which most persons fell, which he wished to correct.
It was not considered that when allusion was made to the ports
of Buenos Ayres, Mexico, or Colombia, a very considerable
commerce already existed in those countries, when op the face
of the Custom-House books there were no appearances of any
commerce at all. The same was the casein the commerce with
the Brazils ; and the reason was, that it was carried on in an
indirect and circuitous manner. The commerce, however, was
now direct ; and be thought it therefore the fairest way of look-
efor officialty-thr returns,
s i the
tiia
ing at the subject, to take all America together. A greet deal
of the exports it was known went to the West Indies and to
Canada; but in round numbers lie might state, according to.
t
vet
ohfoltebeosfeStwrietinsthy-OExnpe millionsorts
amounted
to went
to Europe ; seventeen millions to North and South America ;
and five millions to the East Indies. He was therefore ready to
agree with the Noble Marquis, who would not accuse him of
being friendly to restrictions, hat in proportion as they were
taken off, and commerce was made direct, it must increase, and
with it the prosperity of the country. It was also to be consi-
dered that those states were agricultural states, and not manu-
facturing ones, which arlbrded additional advantages for com-
mercial intercourse. As to the notion that Spain in her
Present condition, or even as she had ever been, could have
the means by her own power of reconquering her colonies, he
regarded it fully as chimerical and absurd as the Noble Mar-
quis had done. But before he proceeded farther he considered
it necessary to call to the recollection of their Lordships
certain circumstances connected with our former relations to
that country, for without referring to those circumstances, they
could not judge of the station in which we now stood. It was
well known that long before the Spanish Revolution in 1808,
there was a strong, a natural feeling that the period was not
distant when the colonies would emancipate themselves from
the Mother Country. It was, indeed perfectly obvious,
that whatever relations might have subsisted between the
Mother Country and her Colonies, provinces containing six-
teen or seventeen millions of people, could not long be held
in the thraldom in which these dominions were. It would
then have been a material question for the Government
of that country, taking example from us, prudently and wise-
ly in time to have considered of the propriety of relaxing her
monopoly and establishing a system in her Colonies which
would be more compatible to their situation. In 1808, in
consequence of an aggression which was without parallel in
the history of nations, the people of Spain rose against the
French ; and their Lordships would recollect the enthusiasm
which prevailed in this country, and the arrival of Deputies
from Spain requesting our aid. On that occasion many different
opinions were entertained by different persons upon the line of
policy which we ought to pursue. Some, who were more jealous
of liberal policy, thought that this country ought to support
the Mother Country sgainst the French ; while others, and they
were not inconsiderable persons, thought that the contest in
Spain must fail, and that we should take advantage of what
took place, to separate the colonies front her and from a con-
nection with them. But the more generous policy prevailed,
and the result proved it to be the most prudent course, as it
ultimately led to the security of Spain and the tranquillity of
the world. Whatever line of policy was adopted towards Spain,
should also have been fairly anti honestly pursued towards all
her dependencies. This had been done. In our declaration the
integrity of the Spanish dominions had been stated to be the
object of the policy of this country, and the declaration had
been applauded by persons of all opinions at the time. The
Revolution in Spain was extended by insurrections in the Co-
lonies, but it was not known whether they entertained any
intention at that period of separating thems:thres from the
mother country, though it was to be expected that they would
stipulate for greater privileges than they had hitherto possessed.
There was, however, but one honest course for us to pursue,
and we had taken it. We had the advantage of a free trade with
South America, and Spain could not refuse it ; but from 1810,
when the first notice was had of the rising in these Provinces,
we offered our mediation to the Provisional Governments, in
order to attempt a reconciliation between the Mother and her
Colonies ; and it was most material to observe, that from 1810,
and during the whole war, and after it—whether Spain was go-
verned by a Provisional Junta, by the Cones, or when the King

was restored, that this country never swerved from its duty or
from sound policy (for they are connected together), but still pur-
sued its object of reconciling these countries on fair and reason-
able principles. But under every system of Government Spain
declined the mediation of Great Britain. There might be rea-
sons inhuman nature, but he could not help remarking, that if
there were any difference in the pertinacity witlf which the offers
of this country were rece:ved, that was most conspicuous the
more constitutional the Government was. Still this country
,continnecl to act in that course; and when the Congress was
held at Aix-la.Chapelle, she renewed the offer of her media-
tion with the support of the other Powers of Europe. Spain,
however, declined all the good offices which were proposed ;
and this country did not cease her efforts till after that time,
when she thought it prudent to pause, and to look to her own
essential ineerests, the motions of the Noble Lord is now to
acknowledge the independence lof those Colonies; but he
Lord Liverpool) begged their Lordships to consider what had
been done, and what remained to be done: In 1/122 a Noble
Lord now no more, whose loss would long be lamented, had
full instructions upon this important subject, With which he
was preparing to repair to the Congress of Verona. They
had afterwards been transmitted to a Noble *Duke ( Welling-
ton), but in the mean time his Majesty's Government had sub-
mitted an Act to Parliament which went to the direct acknow-
ledgment of the de facto independence of the South American
States. • By the third of the King, chapter 40th, it was or-
dered that the vessels and flags of those provinces should
be received in all our ports as those of independent States,
whereas by the Act of Navigation the trade with them had
till then been carried on in British vessels alone. By this
Act they were recognised as independent States, and his Noble
Friend (the Duke of Wellington) had been instructed to ex-
plain our policy at Verona, and ,to announce that it would be
followed by other steps, of which due notice should he given
so the Allied Powers. From the time of this practical recogni-
tion, it was acknowledged that every advantage of commerce
bad been given to this country, and every advantage also
had been enjoyed by the South American States. In Decem.
ber, 1822, it was intimated
-to be the intention of this country
to send Consuls to the different ports of Spanish America.—
There was a generous delay in sending these Consuls, but he
thought it more delicate to suspend their appointment for a few
months, than to make it during the heat of the contest with
France. He would now look to a more important period, when
it appeared that the French arms would be successful in Spain,
and that the King would be restored. Government wished to hear
a full explanation from France with regard to her views in South
America. It was then that Consuls Were appointed, and -sent
to their different destinations ; which with the acknowledgment
of their flag seemed to be a complete de Ado recognition.
The Noble Earl then proceeded , " My Lords, this is not the
whole. We did that not for them only, but for our own in-
terests as well as theirs, which was worth a thousand words,
and phrases, and a thousand acknowledgments ofindependence.
it has been stated, that any design of the other Powers of Eu-
rope was checked by the Message of the President of the united
States of America. What effect that had is not for me to pre-
sume to say ; but weeks before that Message was delivered,
this country did distinctly declare, that though it was neutral
between Spain and her Colonies, it would not see with indiffe-
rence any foreign Power interfere in the contest. And this
this country did further obtain France a complete abjuration of
any design to make an attempt by force of arms against any of
the Colonies of South America. I do therefore say, the mea-
sures taken combined every thing that could he essential to the in-
terests of this country, and every thing precticable consistent with
honour, justice, and good faith, towards the Colonies themselves.
The Noble Lord talks of acknowledgments of independence.'
'That can only be nutlet() the Power who has the sovereign right
over the couutry itself.—(Hear, hear !) —You have no right to
acknowledge or dispute the independence. I will admit there
is one thing remains to be done, and that is the opening a diplo-
matic intercourse. Every thing else has been done. In the first
place, I think, if there was any, question which oaght peculiarly
to be left to the Executive Government, it is at what time and
under whhttircumstances a diplomatic intercourse ought to be
opened with a Foreign State. If there is any question that,
more especially and peculiarly belongs to the Crown in a Con-
stitution like this, it is that question. I will not deny there
may be an apathy and neglect upon this subject, which, as
upon every other exercise of the Royal prerogative, may call
for and admit the interference of Parliament, but what I have
to ask is, is there any such case, after you have read this cor-
respondence—any such abstinence of the King's Government-
- any such neglect of these countries, as to induce you to think
• you have cause for such special interference ? No man can say
there is. There may be a thousand reasons for the Crown's
.'abstaining from taking such a step ; but I have no desire to
conceal myself under any such secret motives or reasons upon
• the present occasion ; and I have no _difficulty in telling the
Noble Lord all I know, and think, and feel upon the subject ;
anti that brings me to some general principles, on which I will
say how far I agree with, or differ from him. With regard to
what I would call the acknowledgment, I say there are two
questions : first, a question of right ; and, secondly, a question
of expediency ; and unless I can 'first establish the question of
'right no motive of expediency ought to be an inducement. With
respect to the question of right, I have no difficulty in stating
what I have felt for some years past throughout this contest,
that I do not think this country had any right to•take such a
-t,ltep in any province where the contest was .s. ti.ll going on. We
4now that in that respect we are acting differently from what
others acted towards us.—( H ear, hear, 'beer !)—Vre know
well what was the conduct of the House of Bourbon to us inn
contest in that very department. :We Inow that while this
country had. large =meet; in the field, however they might
have been embarked in the cause, and whatever might -be the
policy of it, they chose to support and assist those Colonies,'
even at the time when the contest wax .at „its height. .But
God foroid' that we, in a Christian country, should 'copy such
an example. Ii respect to one province, a severe con- I
seen is going .on, and that is one instance in .which i .would
aiopt my phinciple. There de .antether principle, not of the
destined orabsolute nature of the first; I mean where with-
out a contest in arms you have reason to know there isa con-
siderable portion of the population -desirous :of conciliation
with the Mother Country. Every reflecting person will ad.
snit that in such a case it would .be a duty to abstain from
taking any steps. Supposing these -questions decided, the
whole then resolves itself to a question.of expediency. .On
that you have to consider all the advantage a complete recog-
nition could give. There may be nominal advantages. As
to solid and substantial advantages, you enjoy them all. Is
there anything in the abstinence of the Government that chews
? I will ask any man who reads this correspnudence,
and I say there is no Mexican, Colombian, or Chaim, who
thinks there is any or backwardness in this country. I
would ash whether theywould rather have had a Minister Ple-
nipotentiary, or the declaration of Mr. Canning, that Great
',Mule would see no third Power whatever interfere with the
onduciee ; and France declares, in return, she abjures all
such interference. Is there not that good will and disposition
which is worth a thousand Ministers and Ambassadors ? it is a
great point to obtain it you can the acknowledgment of inde-
pendence fietn the mother country ; hut till that has taken
place, the Government will always be fat to have a more or
less doubtful title, and if internal dissentions arise, parties
will avail themselves of that. Considering the connections we
have had with Spain, anti the part we have taken in the con-
tent. I think it a neutlernanlike course to give to Spain the
013Portuszte of doing that in the first instance. We state in
the Papers we wish Spain should go first in the diplomatic
intercourse. As we gave them the meens of doing that, and
in doing that we did what is for the interests of Spain, we
did what is for the interests of the Colonies themselves,
and what is honourable, gentlemanlike, and respectable.
There is another question, as to which 1 do riot mean to
say much, what Governments they should have ? I may have
my own opinion on that ; I ant not acquainted with what
Gov eminent is likely to suit them. We know at the
nine of the independence of the United States that his Ma-
jesty was advised to say he regretted the Americans had not
chosen a Monarchy. I do not mean to enter into the ex-
pediency, propriety, or wisdom of that sentiment. In a
great liendephere like that, provided we get a Government
to maintain the relation of peace and amity, that is all we
have a right to lock to or expect. Befiere, however, we take
any ultimate steps, it is not unreasonable to desire information.,
whether the Government possessed the confidence of the coun-
try to wheat his Majesty hail sent Consuls, and sonic time would
view before that information could be obtained. Then I
will put the question, under these circumstances, are we not
right in the course we have taken ? There is no man who will
net say the line pursued by Government is not right—they
have gone fast, and, some tnink thither and faster than ne-
c,easity required—they have exposed themselves to risks; but
I do not think any parson can imagine we have not done
every thing on this most important question. Then, I put
the question, on this ground, I have stated, without reserve,
every feelinn I have had on the subject; I have stated the
course the country has pursued—the situation in which the
country lees been placed by its alliance and connections with
Spain. I have stated our situation in consequence of the con-
test which we, together with the Spaniards, carried on. I have
stated the genii faith with which we acted—t-.he mediations we
offeheihne prevent a strpazatnon from the Colonies; that if these
mediations and gpod offices had been accepted, part of those
provinces might still have been preserved ; but when that be-
came desperate, it was for us to take a step meet foe the interest
of this country and the Coloniew, and weave in progress to what
the Noble Lord desires; but I say we ought to do it in a hand-
some and liberal way; we have shown affection, good will, to
the Colonies ; we have shown we are determined they shall
not be trampled upons—(clear, hear !)—hy alliancei or confede-
racies.--( Hear !)—Whatever their names, or however forrnid-
able.—(Heer!)—We are keeping it in the hands of the Crown,
i
where alone t should- be placed; and thinkit neceseaey to

conclude this subject again by referring to what I have already
stated, that as we have kept ourselves unfettered hitherto, we
will keep. ourselves unfettered in future, we will keep this
question in our hands as against Spain, as against the Holy
Alliance, to exercise our own legitimate discretion." The Noble
Lord then adverted to what was stated .in the papers about
our disclaiming an intention of forming political connee-.
tions with the Colonies, which, he said was only to do awarany
jealousy in foreign Powers, and concluded by moving, as an
amendment, " That this House, acknowledging his Majesty's
goodness in directing the communications to be laid before the
House, begs leave humbly to express their entire confidence
that his Majesty will continue to act in the further progress of
this important question, on the most just and liberal principles
apparent on these communications—principles alike honourable
to the British name, and conducive to the best interests of the
country.
Lord lIIALENBOROUGII supported the motion upon ge-
neral grounds, and argued particularly that no further consi-
deration ought to be extended to Spain, because she was in the
hands of France, and France was virtually the power with
whom we now had to treat in all matters connected with the
affairs of Spain. He felt this the more on account of the man-
ner in which the people of Spain had been subjugated. and of
-.the apathy with which they submitted to their yoke. The
French" had obtained their sway, not by the exertion of force
alone, but because they found in the Spaniards willing slaves.
For these reasons he thought the recognition of the Inde-
pendent States ought not to be delayed another hour, and he
should therefore vote for the motion.

~Lord CALTHORPE spoke in favour of the amendment.
He trusted that the late acts of this Government would con-
vince the Minister of France that the determination of this
country was taken. It would now be seen that this country
held a community of feeling with all those who possessed free
institutions, not only with a view to trade, but to the general
principles of independence.
Lord ROSEBERRY thought it would be no obstruction to
the intentions of his Majesty's Government, should their Lord-
ships think proper to adopt the motion of his Noble Friend.—
A temperate and deliberate declaration of the opinion of Par-
liament, by which the unanimous feelings of the people would
be expressed through their only legitimate organ, would be a
step at once useful and honourable to the country. The Noble.
Earl had claimed the confidence of their Lordships He was
ready to grant him his confidence; and by giving his vote to
his Noble Friend, to aid and assist the Government in carrying
into effect its own plans, and to accelerate the end which all
parties had in view. He should vote for the motion upon
grounds and principles which he hoped he had explained to
the satisfaction of the House.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN replied. After listening
to the speech of the Noble Earl, full as it was of ingenious and
subtle distinctions, he had not heard him point out one pos-
sible contingency in which it would not be for the advantage
of this country that an immediate recognition of the indepen-
dence of these States should be made. The Noble Earl had
not stated one reason why delay was justifiable, and which could
warrant him in interposing to prevent their Lordshipsfrom ex-
pressing to his Majesty the hope that they might look forward
to this desirable event at no distant period. The only ground
upon which the delay was advocated, was that of giving time
to Spain. Yet the Noble Earl would hardly get up in his
place and say that Spain—the shadow of what Spain was—
Spain degraded and debased in the eyes of the world, and go-
verned by the mandate of the French Minister,—would the
Noble Earl get up in his place and say that he expected Spain
would in a short time acknowledge the independence of her
colonies ? They knew what they had to expect from the cha-
ratter of the Spanish Government. Spain was a long time be-
fore she found that Holland was an independent country. If
they waited for Spain to take the lead, to the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman now at the head of Foreign Affairs would never belong
the honour and the glory of declaring the independence of the
South American States. The formal recognition of these States
would give them a character of solemnity in their own eyes,
and in the eyes of the world, which could not fail to have the
most beneficial result. The present was one of those important
crisis in which it behoved them to call forth all their resources.
By such a course only could we hope to take that station in
Europe to which we are entitled, and to arrest the progress of
that power from whose menacing attitude, which had been but
lately relieved by the death of Buonaparte, but who still continued
to, pursue one of the most formidable systems of military ag-
grandizement that ever was known to the world. By contri-
buting the lights of .science and civilization to these new regions,
they would be pursuing their own happiness and glory. With
this conviction, he should press his original motion ; which,
however, he begged leave to say he would not do if lie was not
satisfied that there was but one feeling in the country on this.
subject, and that that feeling was in his favour.
t.
The House then divided upon the original motion, When
re
number .were :
Contents -
Not Contents -
Majority against the Motion
Adjourned.

- 95
- --61

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
MISCELLANEOUS.
Lord STANLEY presented petitions from Blackburn,
Rochdale, and other places, against the Raw Hide Duty Re-
peal Bill.

Mr. LAWLEY presented a similar petition from the Tan-
ners of Birmingham.
.Similar Petitions were presented from Macclesfield, Kings-
ton-upon-Pull, Bury, and Bristol.
Sir A. CAMPBELL presented a petition from persons con-
nected with the British Planters and Merchants of the West
India Colonies, praying for a further reduction of the duty
on Rum.

Mr. LAMBTON presented a petition from the 'Worsted
Spinners of
,Darlington, against the exportation of British
Wool.

SLAVERY.

Sir Wm.. LEMON presented a petition from the Town of
Truro, praying for the adoption of measures for the total Abo-
lition of Slavery.
Similar petitions were presented from Renfrew, Appleby,
Leominster, Leith, Edinburgh, from nine parishes in the county
of Derby, Melksham, Hull, Attleborough, Barnard's Castle,
Brentwood, and Mumford in Essex, Wisbeach, Trowbridge,
East Bergbeot, Boston, Cupar, Stroud, Dorking, Chersey,
Thetford, Bolton, and Wrainfieet.

Mr. WATSON TAVIZItook occasion to observe upon
the presentation of these Petitions, that they were got up by
persons not connected with those who signed them. In his
town be knew that a schoolmaster had been going about in-
fluencing the people and getting their signatures.
PETITIONS.

Mr. PETER MOORE presented a Petition from Coventry
against the importation of Foreign Silks and Ribbons.
The Hon. Member also presented a petition from the same
place against the Combination Laws.
Lord STANLEY presented a similar petition to the last
from the Wool Hatters of Manchester.
Similar petitions were presented from Carlisle, the Journey.
men Printers of London, Ashton-under-Line, and Plymouth.
—Referred to the Committee of Artisans.

Mr. DAVENPORT i;;esented a petition from Nantwich
against the continuance of the Duty on Excise. Licenses.
Mr. WHITBREAD presented a petition from the Licensed
Victullers of Middlesex against the Duty on Excise Licenses.
Similar petitions were presented from Exeter, Durham, and
St. Mary's, Lambeth.
Mr. BRIGHT presented a petition from Bristol, praying
for a repeal of the Tobacco Duties.
Another was presented from the same place for an alteration
in the Insolvent Debtors' Act.

Sir JOHN SE.BRIGHT presented apetition from Royston,
against the Duty on Coal carried coastwise.
Mr. G RENFELL presented a similar petition from Penrynn.
Col- LYGON presented a Petition from the Silk Throwsters
of Brockley, against the repeal of the Duty on Silk_

••
A similar petition was presented from Staffordshire.
Mr. ABERCROMBY presented a petitibn from the Inha-
bitants of Edinburgh, praying that some reduction might be
made in the Assessed Taxes, and that no more public money
may be laid out in the building of Churches. '
These petitions were severally read, and ordered to lie on the
table.

Mr. LINDSAY presented a petition from the Magistrates
of Dundee, Perth, Forfar, and Cupar, in Scotland, and the
Cotton Spinners of St. Andrews, praying that the Bounties on
Linen might only be repealed at the rate of five per cent. per
4nnurn, and that the repeal might not commence till 1825, that
the Manufacturers might have time to sell off their present
stock. They also prayer that the duty on sail cloth may be re-
pealed in the same ratio.—Ordered to be printed.
NEW WRIT.

A new Writ was ordered for (lueenborough in the place of
the Right Hon. J. C. Villiers, now Lord Clarendon.
The Committee on the Welch Judicature Bill was postponed
to Monday, the 22d inst.

BRITISH SPIRITS.
Mr. HUME presented a petition from the Rectifiers of
British Spirits, in and near London, complaining of certain
great distillers being also rectifiers against the law, and of the
difficulty in the present state of the monopoly of getting spirits.
The Hon. Member said he thought the same permission to use
renal] stills should be extended to England, what had last year
been applied to Scotland and Ireland.
Mr. ELLICE hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would ,
give his attention to this subject. The price of rum without '
the duty was only Is. 6d., whereas the price of British spirit
without the duty was 4s. al. the gallon. The principles of free
tiade, therefore, called _upon them to allow the West India

Merchants to compete with the English spirit growers, that
the consumer might have his fair chance between them. For
this purpose the English rectifier 'ought to have the privilege of
converting rum into gin.
Mr. .T. BENNETT thought the consequence of such a course
would be to give the public bad spirits for good British gin.
After a few words from Mr. W. Sstrrn, Mr. HUME, and
Sir R. FEAGUSSON, the petition was read and ordered to be
printed.
Mr. HUSKISSON presented a Petition from the Ship-
builders of Liverpool, praying for the gradual repeal of the
Bounties on Linen, Hemp, and Cordage. -- Ordered to be
printed. •
Sir GEO.-CLERK presented a Petition from the Southern
District of Edinburgh, praying for a repeal of the 'Window
Tax.—Ordered to be printed.
Sir JI.ONALD FERGUSON presented Petitions from se-
veral Royal Burghs of Scotland, praying for the gradual with-
drawal of the Linen Bounties.
_ _

Mr. HUSKISSON, in answer to a question from Mr. Law-
ley, said, that he was not so conversant as he perhaps ought to
have been with the nature of the Hides and Skin Bill. It had
been introduced into the House as a Private Bill, although it
turned out in fact to be of a public nature. He disapproved of
the Bill and its object.
NEGRO SLAVERY.
Mr.-W. SMITH presented a Petition from Norwich against
Negro Slavery. lie observed upon the allegation of an Hon.
Member opposite, that these petitions were not got up in a pro-
per manner. This, as regarded the present, he could contra-
dict. If those who advocated the prayer of this petition were to
be called fanatics, he could only say that he was one, and was
proud of being one. As for the language held by certain per-
sons over in the West India Colonies, if Ministers slimed any
forbearance towards them, it could only proceed from the con-
tempt in which they must hold them ; it could be from pity
only that they would refrain. But to attach any weight to the
opinions they put forth would be absolutely a degradation to
human intellect.
Mr. WATSON TAYLOR repeated what he had before
said, that the petitions on this subject had come to his county
ready prepared. The signatures to them were genuine enough,
so far as the representations under which they were obtained
went. He hoped his Majesty's Ministers would benefit by the
observations of the Hon. Member opposite.
Mr. BENNET said, he was very glad to see the people of
England roused upon any subject, and thought such conduct
could not be discreditable to any one. He did not certainly
think that it deserved the scorns and sneers which had been
bestowed upon those who had a feeling of humanity for their
fellow-creatures.

Mr. W. TAYLOR said, that the Hon. Member opposite
was entitled to speak from his own knowledge, as he (Mr. W.
Taylor) had done from his ; and he desired he would not inter-
fere with him in doing so. He esteemed it one of the highest
privileges to address freely that House ; but it was part of his
duty to warn the House when be saw an attempt made to over-
awe them. No one could feel more strongly upon this great
question than he did; but he would not be drawn into a pre-
mature discussion of it upon such grounds.
[At the conclusion of this speech several Hon. Members rose
at the same moment to address the House.]
Mr. Secretary PEEL obtained precedence. He rose, he said,
to entreat the House to forbear indulging in that eagerness
which had but just manifested itself. In twenty-four hours
the subject would be regularly under discussion. He hoped,
therefore, that they would permit the present discussion to ter-
minate, and remain until to-morrow, when his Right Hon.
Friend (Mr. Secretary Canning) would bring forward the mo-
tion of which he had given notice. It was evident the House
was not prepared for the question, and, indeed the temper
which had been already ehewn, was a sufficient cause for his
rising.

The Petition was then read, laid on the table, and ordered
to be printed.
__ _ _

MALT AND BEER DUTIES.
Mr. MARERLEY rose to bring on the motion of which he
had given notice, and which, by the courtesy of his Majesty's
Ministers, he was enabled to bring on before the Orders of the
Day. He rested his motion upon the principle that one class
of persons should not be taxed higher than another, and that
those taxing should not be favoured with the lower rate of taxa.
tion. As the question branched into a great variety of Acts of
Parliament, he would state what his motion was, before
he proceeded. It was, that a Select Committee should be
appointed to inquire into the present mode of collecting
the tax upon Beer and Malt, separately, and whether it
would not be expedient to take the tax upon Malt alone.—
That there was,. sotpe ,Q*.e.*,9rror in the mode of levying the

athnadtifthhpiesoodriedrilcelasanio ae:
obliged to
Nr6:..,inoeAdtb. ornegrtibcurszT
ftobrebriasemt thatalt one
;Teat inequality existed in
paid only 2s. Gd. and this fay precisely the same qualities of
malt, and the same qualities Of beere, ;He knew that he should
o
s cusses
ses this,
we
re which
the h e
suf-
ferers tbhee calledta uponup on
this t prove article;
prepared to do, and that the
ferers from it, the House must grant his motion. lie was
not asking the repeal of duties, but that the same amount
of duty should be levied upon-all. The duty upon Malt was
Sts. 6d. a bushel, which,
with eight bushels to the quarter, was
one pound sterling. This one pound was all that was paid by
the private brewer on a quarter of malt. He paid no duty on
beer; and the House' would soon see how much more another
class of consumers, tilmugh the public brewer, paid for the malt
they consumed. He considered that a quarter of malt would
brew three barrels and a half of strong beer. Upon these
three barrels the duty was 1/. 155., which with the malt dut
if y
on the quarter, made 21. Iss. This sum, divided by eight,
the number of bushels of tusit In so much liquor, gave exactly
the sum he had stated, 6e. 10id. of duty per bushel. Thus,
he had made out his Proposition, that the private brewer paid
only 2s. Gd. a bushel for his malt, while the public, through the
public brewer, paid 66- 10,ie. The return of malt consumed
for the year 1823 was 27,233,380 bushels. The portion of this
used by public brewer and distillers was 16,755,757 bushels ;
leaving 10,533,623 bushels to have been consumed by the pri
vete brewers. He tool: thee, figures from a Return for Eng-
land and Scotland. At the rate of three barrels and a half to
a quarter, there were 6 1 ,2 2,334 barrels of strong beer, and six
millions of table beer at six barrels and a half to a quarter.—
It will be seen from these calculations what an enormous pro-
portion of tax was Paid by the poorer classes above what
was paid by those who were richer. By pursuing the cal-
culations a little further, it
would be found that the sum
which the private brewer
, was thus exonerated from paying
to the Revenue was no Jess than 2,097,1201. The interme-
diate beer which had been brewed in the last year, which
the Right Honourable Gentletrian had considered would do so
much good, amounted to but 6,892 barrels, which had been
brewed by fifty-five different people. For this it was that
they had violated every principle of just legislature, and had
imposed the most unjust restriction on one class of subjects.—
The whole sum calculated on account of these duties was
3,270,2051., which was materially reduced by the expence of
collection under the present system. Now if the duty on
malt were raised from 2s. 6d. to 4s. fid. the same amount of
revenue might be raised, without adding a single shilling to
the expence of collecting the malt-duty, while all the expence
of collecting the beer duty Would be saved, amounting to
290,920/. Such being the ease, it seemed that for the House
to resolve that this subjects should not be inquired into, would
be to declare that a double collection should continue at
an annual expence of almost 300,0001. He knew that he
should be met on this point by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, who would tell him that the returns of the expence
of collection to which he had referred, were not exactly
correct. If such were the case, it furnished an additional
reason for enquiry, in order that everything connected with
the subject might be accurately known. He, however, thought
he was justified in assuming that the return in question was
nearly correct. A note at the foot of the returns stated the
charge for collection there set forth did not apply to the Beer
and Malt duties exclusively. The exact charge for any par..
ticlar collection it added could not be given, but the Beer
and Malt duties being the most productive, the greatest charge
was placed against them. This was the statement supplied by
the Treasury to account for the absence of an exact return.—
There was no duty on Beer in Ireland, and lie understood that
since the transfer of that tax to the Malt, the consumption of
Beer had greatly increased, and the Revenue was collected
without difficulty. In this country, under the present system,
in order to collect the duty on beer, it was necessary to have an
Act passed so lately as in the first year of the present King.--
He alluded to the Act of Ist and 2d Geo. IV. cap. 22, which
he considered to be one of the most severe laws ever enacted.—
The Scotch Brewers soon complained that they could not carry
on their trade under it. The Hon. Gentleman then read ex-
tracts from a correspondence which had passed between the
ekotch Brewers and the Treasury on this subject, setting
forth a variety of objections to the law which, though severe,
they maintained would not answer the purpose of those who
framed it, which would be completely secured by a direct
tax upon malt. The only justification which could be given
of the hardships occasioned by the restrictions of which he
complained, was the necessity of protecting the Revenue, and
how this could be urged by the Right Hon. Gentleman, when
the object might be so much better accomplished by an addi-
tional duty on Malt, he could not understand. Connected
with the brewing trade there were many provisions for insur-
ing the making of porter and beer of wholesome materials.
If the change which he recommended were made, he would
give any penalties which could be devised to punish the use
of deletorious drugs, but as no such care on the part of the Le-
gislature was thought necessary with respect to coffee, wine,
and many other commodities, he did not see that it was neces-
sary here, and thought the public in every case well qualified
to protect themselves against impositions of this sort. Some
attempts might he made to defraud the Revenue. This

" would always be the case, whatever the measures of Go-
vernment might be, but he did not suppose that in. this in-
stance much danger was to be apprehended. As the law
at present stood, the brewers of table beer were prohibited
from charging more than a certain price. Prices had risen
against them, till at length in the brewing of that quantity of
beer, which stood them is 71. 12s. 6d., there was a loss of 12s.
6d. What was the consequence? Why the table-beer brewers
gave the public, as beer, a beverage very different from that
which, but for the restrictions under which, they laboured,
would hare been sold. They could not sustain the loss which
he had shown the advance of prices was calculated to throw
upon them, and of course it must fall on the public.—He
therefore contended that in fixing the price of the article they
had legislated unfairly and improperly. During the war a
duty of 4s. itid. had been imposed on Malt, and high duties
were at the same time collected on Beer. Why then could not
a higher duty be now laid on Malt, that the duty might be
taken off from Beer? It was said that it was necessary
to continue the present system because those connected
with the land were in the habit of paying part of their
labourers wages in Beer. He knew the Gentlemen of the
landed interest were opposed to that alteration, which he
' held to be desirable, and a base subserviency to them would
cause the Government to protect, if they had the power, the
present mode of collecting the duties. He, however, could see
nothing that ought to deter the House from entering upon that
inquiry for which he called. The various arguments cited by
the Gentlemen opposite on a former occasion appeared to him
of no greater weight than those he had noticed, and he was
convinced that by relieving beer from the duty, and increasing
the duty on malt, a greater consumption would be caused, and
the revenue, being better collected, would exceed its present
amount. To maintain the existing system in this case was to act-
in direct opposition to those principles which had lately been
advanced by Ministers and approved by the House. By
laying an additional duty of two shillings on malt, the whole
duty would amount to 4s. 6d. This was that which, if the
present motion were carried, he should suggest to the Com-
mittee ; but of course because he might recommend it, the
Committee would not be obliged to adopt it. Malt in time
of war had actually borne a duty of 4s. 44d. He therefore
only proposed that it should be charged with 10. more than
had formerly been paid, and the advanced duty was only to
take place when the beer duty should be taken off. It was
contended, when that unjust measure which sanctioned the
brewing of Intermediate Beer passed, that the public wanted
beer of a different strength from any then to be had. Here
again his plan was entitled to the support of the Chancellor
of the Exchequer. Under the system for which he contended,
the wishes of the people would be consulted in this respect,
as every one would be left at liberty to brew beer of what
strength he pleasd. He wished the duties to be equalised, and
this he thought an object of no small importance. He concluded
by moving—" That a Committee should be appointed to in-
quire into the present mode of collecting the tax on. Malt and
Beer separately, and whether it was not expedient that the
amount should be collected on Malt alone, thereby equalizing
the tax, that one consumer of Malt should not pay 2s. 6d. per
bushel, and another 6s. lOid. per bushel, and that one con-
sumer of Beer should not pay ss. Bid. per barrel, and another
consumer 15s. 80. for the same quality of Malt and Beer."
The CHA.NCE LLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, when this
subject was discussed last year, in his judgment very satisfac-
tory reasons were given for not adopting the plan of the Hon.
Gentleman, and nothing had since occurred to alter his view of
the question. He could not hold out to the House that he was
likely to throw any new light on it, for he had not sufficient
ingenuity to furnish new arguments on a question whenever it
might be brought forward. He would, however, shortly state
the grounds on which he thought it would he inexpedient to
agree to the motion. The Honourable Gentleman had stated
two grounds on which his plan deserved support,—the one
founded on their love of economy, and the other on their love
of justice. Now as to this first topic—that relating to the ex-
pence of collecting, he must repeat that it was a fallacy to sup-
pose that that sum was actually paid for the collection of beer
duties, which, according to ancient custom, was so put down
in the Excise returns. The same Collector of the duty on beer
collected the duties on soap and starch, and various other
duties, and it was impossible accurately to state the precise
expence of collecting any one of them, nor had he been able
to devise any plan by which this could be ascertained, as one
collector could not be employed in collecting one duty alone.—
He therefore did not' see how the Hon. Gentleman made out that
290,000/. might thus be saved on the collection. The Hon. Gen-
tleman seemed to think there would be little danger of the
duty on Malt being evaded. He, hoWever; would tell him that
great ingenuity was now exercised to evade the payment of the
present Malt Duty, and it could not be doubted that increased
efforts would be made to defraud the Revenue if the additional
two shillings proposed to be put on by the Hon. Gentleman re-
ceived the sanction of the House. But the two shillings addi-
tional Duty on Malt, which he proposed to give the Govern-
ment, the Hon. Gentleman would find would not compensate
whichceof
thethe B
repealeerDuty of the iatlestßyeeeerr wDuety,
mforusttheeeeleossiseho!f
Titevheernruoedu
3,080,0001.; the additional 2s. one jtlalt would give 2,760,0001.
—So there would be ft deficiency of no less than 300,0001.__
The Hon. Gentleman contended that this duty was unequal,
and called upon him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) to
reconcile the continuance of it with the principles which he
advocated in other cases. Abstractedly, he could not deny
the inequality charged to exist, but, practically, that ine-
quality did not press, as the Hon. Gentleman supposed, on
those whom he wished to befriend. He assumed that all who
did not brew were poor, and that all who did brew were rich.—
Now, in this point of the case he could not agree. In many
parts of the country the por brewed. This was the case in those
parts of the country with which he was acquainted, and he
knew it to be the case in Yorkshire, where the fanners, the
manufacturers, and others were accustomed to brew for them-
selves. Were the proposed transfer of duty made, to many of
those who belonged to the poor and industrious classes, it would
be a great evil, and by depriving the parties of their home-
brewed beer, would produce another evil by driving them to
the public house. The transfer of the duty would deprive
the public incidentally of one advantage, which, in his judg-
ment, was not a small one—that superintendence of the brewer,
which rendered the use of improper drugs so likely to he de-
tected. The Honourable Gentleman thought the public could
discover any cheat of this kind for themselves, but he would
remark that, in the last year, though many offences of that sort
had been punished, none of them had been detected by that
nicety of taste for which the Hon. Gentleman gave the public
credit, but they had been invariably discovered by information
received from servants, or from the Officers of Excise. The
Honourable Gentleman had thrown great ridicule on a measure
which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had brought for-
ward last year, to sanction the brewing of intermediate beer.—
He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not feel that there
were any grounds for the observations which had been made.—
He had never calculated on any very important results, and had
only desired that the measure should be tried by way of experi-
ment. He was anxious to remove many of the restrictions on
the Brewing Trade complained of, and was in hopes that it
would be in his power, ere long, to submit certain propositions
to the House, which would in a great degree obviate the evil.
He did not give this as an answer to the Hon. Gentleman, but
merely stated it by the way. He concluded by declaring it to
be his opinion, that no benefit would be derived from the adop-
tion of the plan of the Hon. Gentleman, and he therefore
thought it better to dissent from it altogether.
Mr. HUME thought the Right Hon. Gentleman had laboured
very ineffectually to show that there would be no saving effected
in the collection by agreeing to the proposition of his Hon.
Friend. That there must be a saving was apparent, when the
House remembered the various duties which would be rendered
unnecessary. He doubted not that the sum returned as the ex-
pence attendant on the collection of the Beer Duties was nearly
correct. Had it been otherwise he thought the Chancellor of
the Exchequer would have found means of proving the fact. The
effect of the proposed change he thought would be to cause an
increased consumption, which would be at once beneficial to the
revenue and to the barley grower. The House would remember
how the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been cheered, when he
stated, that those taxes which were still to be kept on, ought to fall
equally on all classes. If he rightly contended for that principle,
why decline to give his consent to the enquiry now demanded.
He was informed thaegreat benefit had resulted from repealing
the beer duty, and laying it on the malt in Ireland. He did not
see why the same effect should not be produced here, and there-
fore hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would not persevere in
his opposition to the motion.
Mr. WODEHOUSE could not agree with the Hon. Gentle-
man who had brought forward the motion, that all who brewed
for themselves were rich, and all who did not brew poor.
Mr. MABERLEY denied haying made such an assertion.
Mr. WODEHOUSE appealed to the House if such had not
been the general tenour of the Hon. Gentleman's argument,
and he had accused the Chancellor of the Exchequer of keep.
ing the duties as they now were from a spirit of base subser-
viency to the landed interest. He knew of nothing that could
justify these charges. Last year the Hon. Gentleman had
magnanimously threatened to shew up the landed interest. He
had executed his threat on the present occasion, and he wished
the Hon. Gentleman joy of what he had done. The Hon.
Gentleman was willing to give any penalties to protect the Malt
Duties. He meant on disrespect to the Hon. Gentleman, but
thought he, perhaps, was not aware of those which now at-
tached to them.
Mr. MABERLEY said he had not declared he would give
any penalties to protect the Malt. Duties, but he would do so
to prevent the use of deleterious drugs.
Mr. WODEHOUSE then proceeded to shew that the plan
of the Hon. Gentleman could not be adopted with advantage.
It would prove injurious to the barley grower; and he shewed
that the consumption of Malt (the increase of population con-

r
Ridered) had remained stationary, and was not geater in 182 ,
1822, and 1823, than it had been in 1791, 1792, and 1793. 1L
reduction of duty, instead of an increase, he thought would be
desirable.

Mr. IiENISON supported the motion, and contended that_
the poor paid 130 per cent. more than the rich for the beverage
they drank. He thought the plan of the Hon. Gentleman
ought to be adopted. At all events, he thought they would do'
well to go into the Committee. If the plan was adopted, he
thought it would cause an increased consumption, which mould
not only improve the revenue, but would largely benefit the
poorer classes, by breaking them of the practice of dram-
drinking, and he therefore felt it to be his duty to give the mo-
tion his most hearty support.
Mr. CRIPPS remarked, the malt duty was now much
evaded, and could not doubt but it.would be much more so,
the duty were augmented. He wished when the excise "officer
went to the brewhouses, he were obliged to take a person witl
him to analyse the beer. Were this done, he believed it woUla
lead to a great increase in the consumption of barley. Thii.
Might do great good, and, at all events, it could do no harm to
any one who meant to act fairly. He opposed Cie !notion.
Mr. MONCK could not support the motion, as however In'''.
radoxical it might appear, if . carried it would introduce the
very inequality which it was the object of the Hon. Member for
Abingdon to remove. He knew• that in many cases the pot
brewed as well as the rich. In the country where he lived there
was no housewife who did not brew. All the tradesmen and
little shopkeepers brewed. He was sorry to say they did not cla
it so much as formerly. This was caused by the high duty 03
malt, and if that duty were increased it would be put down
altogether. It had been said the measure succeeded in Ire-
land. This might be correct, but it did not follow that the
same result would follow if it were resorted to in this country,
as the situation of England and Ireland were by no means
analogous. •
Captain MABERLEY supported the motion.
Lord ALTHORP was of opinion that if the tax on n'
were increased as the Hon. Gentleman had proposed, the result
would not answer his expectation, as he thought it would hav°
the effect of causing much less malt to be made in the present
year than had been made in the last.
Mr. Alderman C. SMITH spoke shortly against the rilotion-,
After a few words from 111 r. PELnam, Mr. MAzzat.Ev re-
plied, contended that his arguments remained unanswered, Amd
announced it to be his intention to bring the motion ftirwara'
every year while he had a seat in that House.
The House divided, when the numbers were—
For the motion - 26
Against it . 130
_ _

aj ority
UTINY BILL.
When strangers were re-ecdmitted,
Mr. HUME was on his legs, proposing to add a clause t°
the Mutiny Bill, to abolish the punishment of flogging in the
Army in Great Britain. He had seen an officer who serveat W irtemberg, and who had told him that the practice of floe
ging had been very prevalent there during the late King.'
reign. It was found that the men considered themselves de-
graded by that punishment, and the same individuals repot'
edly offended. Since the accession of the present King, a nee
system had been adopted, flogging had been discontinue"
altogether, and the most salutary effects resulted from the
change. Though he feared under the present system Inr
would not enter from the hope of promotion, yet he thougot
many might be induced to enlist for five, seven, or ten years'
if the dread cf suffering the ignominous punishment of flog
ging for some trifling offence which might be inadvertestlY
committed, were done away. He hoped at least that the exPe-
riment would be made, and therefore trusted he should bee al'
lowed to bring up his clause.
Str H. VIVIAN had tried, as he believed many officers had!:
to do away with flogging as much as possible. The Duke of
York, who had so often proved himself the soldier's friend,
would not have failed to abolish it had this been practicable.
He was sure that British officers had hearts to feel as. much 86
any men, but he had never conversed with any who, while they
lamented it, had not recognised the necessity of using corpnre'
punishment to maintain the discipline of the army. It was to
be remembered that the army was recruited from the lowest
classes, and from those who were wild in their propensities-
He did not object to this. for he ascribed to it the indisputable
superiority of the British soldier over every other, and it had
been found that the man %Ore was the first to break out of the
barrack yard was often the first to break into the enemy's lines.
He shewed the impossibility of punishing fifty or sixty mei for
drunkenness, the predominating offence, by solitary confine-
ment, and if it could be.done, it would have the effect of throw;
ing the duty, they ought to perform on good men. He defended
the character of the discipline of the British army. He Mr
Bested various regulations which he thought would diminish
the necessity for hogging, but he wished the power of inflicting
it to be retained, but to be exercised as seldom as possible.
Sir R. FERGUSON said, a great change had taken place
used pr actthiacanlifyori tnoerrployr,alanpdun everyi
in our military system. Formerly it was generally understood
that for any common offence a soldier should be punished by
twaFs
m Treoq
flogging. Now it was only resorted to in particular cases.
Lordn ALu
much
l lessS .
me
uNenstalyid,
effort was made to avoid having recourse to it. The clause be-
fore them did not go to prevent flogging abroad, remote front
the view of Government, 'where it was most liable to abuse+
hut to do it away at home when there was no cause for
complaint.

The House then divided, when the numbers were—
For the proposed Clause - 47
Against it - 127
—l3O

Majority -
On our return to the Gallery, we found
Mr. HUME speaking upon the subject of the Certificate
which Officers are compelled to make upon going into the
army relative to the sale and purchase of Commissions. He con-
tended that no.officer could make the declaration without feel-
ing his honour deeply offended, because he knew the practices
to be common, winch it compelled him to deny upon his word
of honour. The Hon—Member moved to bring up a clause
providing that no Officer should be required or allowed to make
any declaration upon his word of honour, as an Officer and a
Gentleman, which the service might afterwards compel him on
many occasions to violate.

Sir H. HARDINGE said that.upon a former evening be ad-
mitted with the Hon. Member that it would be desirable, if
possible, for this order to be recalled ; and upon inquiry he
found there was reason to believe that the subject was under
consideration. The object of the regulation was originally
that of preventing jobbing, and the consequence had been to
protect the junior officers and the poorer officers. It was ne-
cessary for that part of the regulation which produced so de-
sirable an effect to be continued ; but the certificates he hope"
!4:i see recalled. He bad every reason to believe that the sub-
ject was under the consideration of the Commander in Chief,,
and under such circuinstances he should object to the interfe-
rence of the House.
Col. DAVIES said, if he could hear it stated by the Secre-
tary of War that the subject was under consideration in the
proper quarter, he should consider the clause unnecessary. The
jobbing in commissions was as common now as ever it had been.
'Lord PALMERSTON said, the question was one of great
difficulty, and he did not think the clause would effect the pur-
pose of the Hon. Member. It had been held that the sale or
commissions was an expedient practice for the army, but the
question was, how far it should be allowed, and where the limit
should'be marked. After stating the practice for the purchase
and exchange of commissions, the Noble Lord said that the
subject had been for some time under consideration. At the
same time he could not consent to any proposition in that House
because being under consideration, implied that it was not ar-
ranged. He should certainly oppose this clause, because as he
had heard it, it would produce no effect ; and if it would remove
the certificate, the House should pause before it 'did so, and
particularly while the subject was under consideration in a-
quarter to which it more constitutionally belonged.
Mr. HUME withdrew the clause, and the Bill was passed.