The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-23 00:00:00

EVENING EDITION

lions which had fallen from him (Lord Morpeth) when
opposing a motion made in 1839 for assimilating the fran-
chise in the two countries. Now it was true that he had
opposed that proposition, but he did not think
he was acting inconsistently in now bringing fur-
ward the proposition contained in the Bill under
discussion.—(Cries cf " Oh, oh," and laughter.) At all
events, he had not attempted to deceive tho House, as was
evident from the language then used by the Hon. and
Learned Member for Bandon (Mr. Sergeant Jackson).
That Hon. and Learned Member said that he ( Lord Mor-
peth) admitted that although ho then opposed the mation
the time would soon come when it would be necessary to
entertain it. He had not held out expectations to the
House which he was not prepared to realize.—( Cheers. )
The Noble Lord said they were calling upon the House to
legislate upon a momentous question without information
hear)—upon a question of the utmost import-
ance' the information re3peeting which he had been able
to lay upon the table of the House only a few days
ago, and some only so late as that day.—(Cheers.)
He could only assure the House that he was anxious to
communicate to it all the information in his possession.—
(Cliceriag from the Opposition benches)—and: whether
be thought all the specific statements bore against him or
n it, at least, he had used no conci almcnt in bringing
t rein before the House.-( Che. ) But, to return to
the information not being full, satisfactory, and compre-
hensive, he would remind the Hon. Member ft r Mona-
ghee, who appeared to be ratio r difficult to pl -use,
that be bad merely read an extract from his speech,
without ell ring any comment en it ; that
his ohaervatienx fully bore out his ( Lord Morpeth's)
a,guinctits. The Hon. Member approve] of the prin_
ciple of providing the elective franchise on some to apish
iadepen catty of th oath. of the (lector, and it did not ap-
pear to him that the ohaetvations quole I from the spce:ii
f the Hon. Membe: fir Mallow at all bore against his
propositi m. The lion. Members for Mallow and Mo-
naghan n ieht have other views as to the amount at which
the qualifisation was to be fixed, but ui,:on the principle
of so fixing it, he flettered himselt he had the sanction of
the re two high anthorit ea.—( Hear, hear.) Now,
whene% e• the prop coition had been urged on the Go-
v he had al ways held, :idle distinctly
notify i tig his assent to the principle, Ch it he
looked to the test of qualification in some extrinsic
document, and more particularly the Pootl-laws ; but be
had at the same time expressed his opinion that the time
was not yet ripe to adopt that test; that out I the Poor-
laws were better known, until the appeila had been
heard, and the rates les ied, they could not legislate with
fell adv, ntage upon the subject. —(Hear, hcas. ) The
Noble Lord asked why they now called upon the House to
',sacra to the proposition ? But he (Lord Morpeth) would
like to know at whose doer that charge lay?--(Bear,
hear. end chrering.) To whom were they indebted
for the necessity for the present legislation ?—( Renee ed
cheers.) The delays of the Government were looked upon
acme repretexts.--as putting off the evil day—and bols:ering
up the present system. AN these were alleged against
the Government, but, not content with even that. they
must needs have a measure of their own. Of the Noble
Lord it might be said
" No joys to him pacific sceptre3 yield;
War sounds the trump, he rushes to the field."
—( Loud chee?s and laughter.) Ho sighed eves the me-
mory of farmer Arms Bills and Coercion Bills.---(" Oh,
oh.") He had challenged them to the fight, and had
rendered it any longer impossible far them to remain tacit
spectators—(" Hear, hear," from Lord Stanley, and loud
cheers)—of his follies and blunders iti the arena of legis-
lation. The Noble Lord had thrown down the gauntlet
and they had not hesitated to take it up. The Noble
Lord said they might have confined themselves to regis-
tration, and omitted all definition of the franchise ; but it
was just there that he (Lord M.) found himself. most at
issue with the Noble Lord—it «a 4 on that point that he
found his principle faulty, and his practice pernicious.
Fraud, and trick, and abuse, and perjury of every de-
scription, were the terms most frequently used by the
opposite benches. The notion that a parliamentary seat
could be obtained unfairly seemed to have sat heavy upon
their minds.—(Cheera.) How did the case stand? The
Government had brought forward a measure, putting out
" of sight its other properties, whether good or bad, which
would:entirely, and from the root, remove and cut off ever, -
thing in the way of trick, and fraud, and perjury • and, in the
words of the Hon. Member for Coleraine, under that Bill
fraud, personation, and perjury would be no more. Now
be would refer the House to the evidence of Mr. Fosbury,
one of the barristers appointed to superintend the original
working of the Reform Bill, a Conservative in politics, and
that gentleman, before a Committee of the House of Com-
mons, distinctly stated that it was desirable that there
should be some test of the franchise besides the cads of the
party. He could refer them to other authorities on the
same point, but it was unnecessary ; and he would merely
observe that it was in pursuance of these opinions, and the
experience of the working of the present system in Ireland,
that the Government had brought forward the present mea-
sure. But what bad the enemies of fraud and perjury on that
side of the House done ? They had brought is a Bill,
vaLich, besides its enormous faults and objections, bad
a system of arbitrary registration, encumbered notices,
and complicated machinery. So far from going to the
source of the evil—so far from shutting the door against
fraud and perjury, he most 'truly and unfeignedly be-
lieved that its real effect would be to increase' those evils
which it was so ostentatiously put :forward to check.
--(Loud cheers.) And why din they say that ? because
it left the main point of the contest is dispute wholly un-
checked and untouched. All the disputes which came on
in the Registry Courts—all the questions for protracted
inquiry before Committees of that House, had turned upon
the subject of value ; and it was that subject which had
not only divided Parliament, the Leach, and the bar, but
Lad made itself felt in the remotest Registry Court, as
well as before every Parliament Committee.—(Cheers.)
No one could take up a newspaper without setting the
lamentable disputes...-the dead lock to which there dis-
putes had led. Since he had had the honour to bring in
the present Bill, there had been another speech from the
bench in answer to an opposing one. Was that a
satisfactory state of things to go on ?—(Cries of " Hear,
Bear.") They left the franchise in all the doubt and
uncertainty which bad been hitherto so loudly and, to some
extent, so justly complained of. That franchise was to be
established by the evidence of opposing parties and con-
flicting witnesses, subject to the different interpretations of
Judges and Barristers, and fraud and perjury were too
frequently the result. He would refer the House to the
evidence taken before the Fictitious Votes Committee, in
which it was stated that there bad Leen the greatest con-
tradiction and discrepancy between the testimony of the
witnesses examined in support of, or against, the franchise.
It was true, that the Bill of the Noble Lord imposed many
rcstrictims, and threw many difficulties in the way of
seeking the f anchise, whether fairly or unfairly, aid that
was what he complained of. He belie% ed that the Bill of
the Noble Lord would, in a great =Ay instances, effec-
tually drive away from the registry many an honest and
bona fide claimant, as well as the unqualified and fraudu-
lest claimants. Nay, more, paradoxical though it might
seem, there would be many instances in which th 3 Bill of
the Noble Lord would have more the effect of deterring—
that was of disfranchising—good and fair claimants,
Scan it would have of detertieg dishonest and per-
jured ones. And he said so for this reason, that
persons of the latter kind were more easily induced
to make speculations in such matters, quite re-
gardless of the consequences. They were ready pre-
par, d to run the gauntlet of all the Noble Lords' vexatious
and intricate measures. Whilst on the other hand well.
intentioned persons, perfectly well qualified to vote, would
prefer giving up thoir right to running the gauntlet. The
Noble Lord, in the course of the speech which he made
that night, seemed to impeach in some degree not
merely the amount of rating here proposed, but the pledges
which are to be given in proof of the qualification itself.
The Poor-law valuation established one uniform scale,
but he admitted that that was liable to some exceptions.
The Poor-law valuation had arrived at that point of pre-
cision and information which he thought it was possible for
any point of human legislation to arrive at. He con-
ceived that this uniform, invariable scale of precision was
necessary to establish a basis for any qualification. It
was not absolutely requisite that the basis itself—for
instance, in counties, they used the assessment,
for the purposes of County-cess in Ireland. What was
wanted was that the, basis for the qualification should be
fixed in some stable, uniform, ascertained manner. It
should be fixed on such distinct and ascertained grounds
that it should not shift according to any passing external
influence—with the caprice of landlords, or the breeze of
popular favour, but should have in itself a certain check
against the admission of fraudulent votes. Such a basis
on the whole they found the Poor-law rate to be. He did
not contend that it was satisfactory in all things.
He knew that plausible extreme cases might
be urged against any measure which could be brought for-
ward. In some cases it might be represented that the
landlord would wish the tenant to give his vote as ho
pleased, and would put up die elective franchise at auc-
tion, and to effect that would pay the whole rate himself.
He did not believe that there was any test by which it
could be so well proved whether any attempts were made
to put fraudulent voters on the roll or not. He did not
indeed recommend the rating under the Poor-law as an
unerring standard, but he recommended it as removing all
doubt and all opportunities of fraud. It should also be
remembered that any departure from the spirit or letter of
the Poor-law Act which could be detected was uniformly
found to have a tendency to lower, not to raise, the
qualification. The Noble Lord here referred to
statements which had been made in the previous
part of the evening respecting the proceedings which
had taken [dice in the union of Balruddery in support of
the view which he had urged, and then proceeded to say
that it was quite plain whether it was by a period of ten
or five yaars, or by a qualification of tel. or 51., the
Committee on the Bill and not the second reading of the
Bill would furnish the fittest opportunity of definitively fix-
ing the points respecting the rate. But he wus new
pushed to assign the reason which induced him to adopt
the sum of 5/. 23 the amount of rate. He had not heard
any one reason on that Light which would dispose him to
recede from the proposing such a rate. They (the Minh-
ters) had marls up their minds with a view to obviate
and render improbable the recurrence of those evils which
have so often presented themselves in the system of rsgi,-
tration now existing in Leland. In adopting the Nor-
law rating as the qualification, it became necessary for
them to fix an amount of rate which would afford reason-
able evidence that they meant to give the franchise which
it was intended to be conferred by the Reform Ac'. To
effect this they availed themselves of all the information to
which they had access, and they found if they adopted, for
instance, as was suggested in the returns of the Reform
Bill, the 101. rating, that in all the Unions to which they
bad access for obtaining information it would have
the effect of disfranchising a very considerable number of
those persons on all sides who he believed were now in a
perfectly valid Red legitimate manner placed upon the
electoral roll. Therefore it was very clear that the rating
which would form a reasonable equivalent for the fran-
chise which they meant to give, should be below the sum
of lot. They found also that there were many registered
electors who, if they did not adopt the rating proposed,
would be excluded from that registration. In consequence
of that appearing, and that there was an almost uniformly
rated value of 5/. annexed to the possession of sii or

seven acres in some circumstances, eight or nine acres in
other instances, in many cases more, but never less than I
five or six acres--taking into consideration the effects of
the valuati ;n, which whenever it was ascertained was con-
siderably lower than the amount of rent paid by inhabi-
tants, they thought it but fair to place the rated value at
Si., and give the present franchise as it was contem-
plated by the Reform Act. The franchise was that
which was carried into effect by those very persons who
put the law into operation under the original appoint-
ment, and under the continued superintendence
cf the Noble Lord opposite, when he filled the
place in which ho (Lord Morpetb) succeeded
him. With respect to the gloss which was put on
the franchise subsequently, he would only refer for the
effect it would have on the registration of voters in Ire-
land, by mentioning what was stated relative to the
Union of Longford by a person appointed to inquire into
the circumstances bearing upon the subject in that union.
The Noble Lord here proceeded to read the statement to
which he referred, the purport of which wee, that he
could not find one solvent tenant who would be
able to pay 101. over and above the amount of his rent.
Now he ( Lord Morpeth) owned he had -.much repug-
nance to bring forward any proposition which should
have the erica, either directly or indirectly, of raising
the elective franchise in Ireland. When he addressed
the house the ether evening, he quoted some compara-
tive statements of the numbers of the constituency in
this country and Ireland, and his object, with respect to
Ira Ind, had perhaps been misunderstooe, certainly mis-
represented. He had never attempted to convey the opi-
nion that they ought to base the qualification on mere
numbers. or in any way recede from the principle of the
Reform Bill; but when he found such glaring dispropor-
tion between the number of voters in the three countries,
when he found that the ratio proportion sea; in England
one in eighteen and a half, in Scotland one in thirty, and
in Ireland one in seventy-;even, he did think such a
State of things required a remedy.—( Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Member for Monaghan thought these calcu-
lations ought not to be taken into account, but if
they %sere to have ti.e electetal body answer it; constite-
tinnal purpose, he ( Lord Morpeth) elid think it was
necessary to enter his emphatic protet against raising
directly or indirectly Vie elortive f a terl ire in Ireland,
and still furth; r paring down its a'ready contracted, and,
is spite of wha. I been said on the ether side, be
maintained its fast-dimiaist ing constituency.—(Cheers.)
The Noble Lord hal deck on the largo addi ion
ti .e present proportion would gai r, and had repre-
sented the effect cf giving the franchise to the
51. rated tax payers as having a tendency to prevent the
landlord.; from giving any more leases to their tenants.
The Noble Lord had indulged in some disquisition on the
rehire duties of landlord and tenant—(Cheers)—respect-
ing which he (Lord Morpeth) would observe that it was
not such as he should have expected to have heard from
one who had done such distinguished service to their
cause as the Noble Lord. —(Hear, bear, and cheers.)
He (Lord Morpeth) had no objection, in common
with the Noble Lord, because be could not counteract
the tendencies and feelings of the human bosom—he had
no objection that a landlord should hope or expect to have
his tenants voting with him, but what he protested against
was, that they should be subjected to his feelings of ill
will for doing otherwise.—( Cheers.) He did not know
whether the Noble Lord admitted a wish to bring the
electoral constituency of Ireland to that prise, that
whatever were their feelings--whatever was their sense
of the treatment they received, they should be
bound in all political matters, merely to reflect and re-
echo the sentiments of a dominal party.—( Cheers.) When
it came to that pass the Noble Lord was willing to give
his consideration to that case—( Cheers)—and he (Lord
Morpeth) was glad to find that in spite of the sacrilegious
hand they had put to the sacred ark of the Reform Bill,
there were circumstances and contingencies that might
induce even the Noblb Lord to become a forerunner in
the work of re-model ing an innovation.—(Cheer:.) But
the proof on which the Noble Lord rested that the time
was not yet come—that the landlord did not
withhold leases to such an extent as to
diminish considerably the number of electors—the docile
meat on which ho seemed to rely for these inferences was
a return laid on the table of the House during the pre-
sent Session, of the registered electors in Ireland, which
the Noble Lord quoted as proof that at the present mo-
ment the constituent body had increased of late years—that
it was formerly 50,000, and latterly 80,000, but that now
it amounted to 99,000—the Noble Lord quoted this as
proof of the number of the present constituent body
in Ireland, overlooking the fact of the different heads of the
documents that he quoted from a list of the electoral body
before the elections in 1838, and that every person regis-
tered in 1832, had no longer a place in the register of
voters. This document the Noble Lord had neglected to
read, but had, nevertheless, quoted, and he (Lord Mor-
peth) really thought.thet before the Noble Lord founded
arguments on such statements, he ought to be convinced of
their truth and accuracy.—(Cheere.) This return con-
tained the total number of registered electors for
the year 1839 and 1840, or the total number
entitled to vote, at the date of this order, the 25th Fe-
bruary, 1840, at which time the registration took place,
and the registry of 1832 would be still in force, and
which, unless renewed, had all now expired.—(Cheers.)
And he (Lord Morpeth) did want some practical proof of
the view he had taken, and which could not be compared
with the return of the Ist February. By the later docu-
ments he found that the number of voters in Cork, which
appeared on the face of that return as 5,735, had dwindled
to 3,795_( Cheers. ) In the county of Tipperary they
amounted on the face of that return to 4,143, but had
since decreased to 2,463. In Queen's County the
number stated in the return was 2,536, but it now
was only 1,689. In Roscommon the number was
put down at 2,192, but the number now was only
1,059—( Cheers.) Stress had been laid on the manner
in which it was proposed to deal with the town fran-
chise. Now he admitted this was not open to the same
ambiguity of construction, and that they were less impe-
ratively called upon to remodel in this respect the pre-
sent provision; but whereas it would appear, as it must
to any person who referred to the evidence given before
the Fictitious Votes Committee, that there were many
controverted points even with respect to the settlement
of the franchise in towns, and that in order to ascertain
the proper constituency of towns they must have recourse to
the oath of the voter, and the conflicting evidence of adverse
witnesses—that the present scale between this country and
Ireland did not make the discrepancy so considerable as it
would at first appear; and as they had no other means of
bringing the whole electoral law under the same uni-
form system, he thought it preferable to apply the same
basis as well as the same qualification to the towns
and cities as well as the counties. —( Hear, hear.)
Now the main superiority of the Bill which he (Lord
Morpeth) humbly but earnestly hoped the House would
sanction and prefer to that of the Noble Lord, was that it
removed doubts—that it put an end to disputes—that it
met at once and removed all the evils complained of—that
it extinguished the disputes, controversy, and perjury so
loudly arraigned—that it counteracted all the mischiefs so
much felt in Ireland, without creating any of those Anxie-
ties and embarrassments so much and so justly complained
of in that country.—(Cheers.) There were also other
points of superiority which he thought entitled it to pre-
ference. That the voter should retain the facility
of establishing his claim at all times in the
year, and before the tribunal to which that class of voters
was accustomed to resort, he (Lord I Morpeth) thought
was better than taking away that facility, and limiting
that opportunity to ono time. He thought it would be
preferable to confine the annual revision to matters of jaw,
and to exclude from it matters of fact which already there
had been opportunities of inquiring into. He also thought
that it would be better riot to make the Judges of the
land the ordinary tribunal.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.")
These were points copiously discussed before, and, as the
Noble Lord opposite had already reminded the House,
they would have an oppertunity of considering them sepa-
rately. But the House, in passing its deliberate judg-
ment between the rival schemes, would be guided by the
Engl-h Reform Bill and the Brit of 1832._(Cries
of " Hear, hear.") They would see that the Bill of the
Noble Lord, under its seeming horror of perjury and fraud
included in the same series of doubts, objections, and
vexations, alike the fictitious and the bona fide elector.
It would have undoubtedly the effect of still further pinch.
irsg and paring down the elective franchise of the people
of Ireland ; and in the meantime it left the acknowledged
evil without a remedy, and the main cause of the dispute
still untouched, uncared for, and unredressed. —( Hear,
hear, hear.) Whilst the Bill which he had the
honour to propose would at once remove the
whole train of doubt in dispute, giving and not denying
facility towards the acquisition and enjoyment of important
pnblic rights—(Cheers)—comprising at the same tirae,'not
as a distinct aim, but as a collateral means, some farther fu-
ture enlargement of the popular franchise, and some pros-
pect of an equalisation with those whom they are encou-
raged to call telt it fellow-citizens.—( Cheers.) In sub-
mitting those considerations to the House, and expressing
his hope that it would lean towards the side of the alterna-
tie e to which he was inclined, he was far from wishing to
use any language, or suggest any view which, in the mind
of any one, might be supposed to trench upon threat or
menace. He would not allude to existing circumstances
or to the fears and feelings of the times in which we live;
and he nal sure that the Members of the benches
opposite did not entertain a deeper sense of those
circumstances and feelings than he did ; and he had never,
on that or any other occasion, held lightly of the gravity
of those elements of milts wi ich were gathering round
us; he believe I it was enough fir him to empress his hope
that the me Bute which he hal introduced, and the prin.
ciple cf which commended itself to their judgments by de-
tails founded on the hest informeton, was the best suited to
the present condi ion of Ireland.—( Cheer,. ) He believe i
that its adoption by the Lrgislature, if it happily took
place—both considering it in itself, and as an evidence of
kindness and a conciliatory feeling—would be eminently
auspicious to the future prospects of Ireland.—(Loud
cheers.) It could not be dissembled—however Hon.
Members opposit r might treat it—that the greatest an-
xiety was felt in Ireland on this question. ( Hear,

hear, hear.) He did net think that the people
of that country ought h have such boding suspicions
of deJigns entertained against them—( a., hear)—kt
he was compac 1 to say that gicat apprehension Fit exist
atm ta; them.—( Hear, hear)—and if he migi t quote from
a classical authority, he would say--" Et Prcvincia"—he
did not use the word offens:vely—(Cheers)—" si ad Belli
utilitatem nut peels dignitatcat respicias initio ctlamitatis
est dcfeadenda."—(Cheers.) He did not look with ap-
prehension to any demand for a repeal of the Union, but he
believed that ne better opportunity could offer than the
present for substituting feelings of amity for animosity
and alienation—(Cheers)—for rivetting the union with
links more durable than law, and more firm than force
could give—(Cheers)—an opportunity on which states-
men would do well to ponder, and which patriots would
not easily be tempted to despise. The Noble Lord re-
sumed his seat arnid,t repca'ed cheers.
On the motion of Air. BROTHERTON, the debate
was then adjourned till to-morrow.
The other Orders of the Day having been disposed of,
the House adjourned at a Quarter - Twelve.
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