The Sun.
London, England, 1841-03-31 00:00:00

E SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDIY, MARCH 31, 1811

wish of the orphan." The cases would be extremely rare
in which children would avail themselves of that protec-
tion The child must hare been fully tlught in all the
principles of its religion, and be fully impressed with their
importance. He could nct see, therefore, what objection
could be made to the addition of these words. Where the
orphan was of an age to make an objection he shpuld be
allowed to do'se.
Sir H. VERNEY said it appeared to him that the
amendment of his Hon. Friend was perfectly unnecessary.
The board of guardians bad at present the power of ap-
pointing chap'ains of every religious denomination, and it
was proposed by the clause then befero the House to con-
fer the same power upon the board of management of
schools. He thought it therefore quite unnecessary.
impress upon the Com-
mitteeplyoning the clause.--(Hear,
hear.) WARDthe a
necessity
ews
soiut
yl d. strongly rpoensgt
hear.) He did not think they were in a position at pre-
sent to legislate with due discretion upon the subject. In
the case proposed by his Hon. Friend the Member for
Knareaborough he thought a portion of the funds set
apart for the payment of chaplains should he appropriated
to the purpose, without leaving the matter to the discretion
of i
the board of
to that which had taken
management, otherwise they would
have
v eastreg
gio simlar
place with regard to Church-rates. It was impossible
that the people would consent to the payment of a Poor-
rate which was to be applied exclusively to the religious
education of members of the establishment. Under these
circumstances, be trusted the clause would be postponed.
The CHAIRMAN said after they had begun to amend
a chute it could not be postponed.
Mr. BLACKSTONE was also in femur of the post-
ponement of the clause, and if that could not be done, be
hoped some Hon. Member would move its rejection. He
thought the subject required great consideration.
Mr. SL AN EY said the Committee had very nearly
agreed upon the terms of the amendment, and he did not
think it judicious to interfere at such a moment with a
suggestion to postpone or strike out the clause.
After a few words from Lord SANDON,
Mr. GLADSTONE thought it was but right to vest a
discretion in the board of management, because in some
cases a child might not be the most competent judge of
what its religious belief was, while in others it might be
much more competent to declare its own religious belief
than an adult for it. He trusted there would be no post-
ponement of the clause.
Mr. HAWES said the Committee had been taken is
some measure by surprise, inasmuch as the printed amend-
ment of the Hon. Member for Kilmaraock was totally
silent as to the appointment of chaplains of other religious
persuasions; which had been subsequently added. He
thought that formed a very proper ground for the post-
ponement of the chute.
Mr. T. EGERTON would remind the Hon. Member
far Lambeth that the clause had been discussed for some
hours during the previous night, and therefore it could not
be said that the Committee was taken by surprise. L ap-
peared to him that in point of principle they were bound
to see that their paupers received a religious education,
and that that instruction should be in conformity with the
Church as by law established in that country.
Lord J. RUSSELL was ready to agree to the proviso
with the amendment as it at present stood, leaving it to
the Hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets and for Knares-
borough to introduce their limitations at a subsequent pe-
riod. -It would be extremely injudicious, in his opinion,
after having partly discussed the clause, to move its re-
jection.
Mr. HAWES put it, to Hon. Gentlemen, did any of
them anticipate that his Hon. Friend's proviso included the
payment of chaplains? All his printed amendments were
silent on that point, yet in his written amendments it was
introduced. In farness to the rate-payers he would object
to that course, and would take the sense of the House
upon it.
Mr. COL QUHOUN said his original motion is as to
appoint chaplains to the school.. Ile never could have
imagined that the services of literate men—men of educa-
tion—would be expected to be given without their receive
ing any salary. Thnt was a proposal he never could have
imagined would have been laid Lefore the Committee.
Mr. WARD was willing to adopt the clause, if the Hon.
Gentleman inserted the words to be provided for by pro-
portionate payments out cf the poor-rater." Ha (Mr.
Ward) merely wished to provide funds for the paps-wilt of
the salaries of the chaplains acco-ding to the numerical pro-
portion of the children of the various sects to whom reli-
gious instruction was to be given.
Mr. HUME said it appeared to him that a great deal was
said about payment of chaplains, Now, he saw no reason
why tho-e schools should not be built in the neighbour-
hood cf the workhouse=, so that the clergyman of the
workhouse might attend the adjoining school. There
were clergymen for gaols—clergymen for workhouses—
clergymen for schools; why, it appeared to him that
there was a deluge of blackcoat3 wasting away the pro.
perty of the country. He proposed that the question of
payment be postponed.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
House disi led, when there appeared—
For the proviso
Against it
Majority in favour of Mr. Ward's proviso...-- 87
Mr. TOWNLEY PARKER objec:rd to the entire
clause, because he perceived in it the strongest symptoms
cf perpetuating the power of the Poor-law Coramisioners.
He had from the first given his opposition to everything
toedirg to increase the power of the Commi.sioners, which
that cause would most esreutially do. If he could hut get
the assistance of one Hon. Member, he would dt%ide the
House on the cla

... 119
~.. 32

Mr. D A RBY hoped his lion. Friend would net divide t' e
House en tais goes:lin. Ile (Mr. D.) confessed himself
that he did not think the largest schools the ly:st. If the
small sehoels had proper superintendents, ttcy w.tild be,
in opinior, far superior to the large If a die-
cre:ionary power was not vested in the board of guar-
dienr, there would be two classes of schools—the huge
schools and the small ones. He thought his Honour-
able Friend would do better to wait till ho should see
what would become of the other clauses, on which the
operation of the rest.] t one vary much depended.
Mr. GRIMSDITCEI said, that be quite agreed that
the establishment of d:strict schools for the educaion cf

children was a desirable thing, but he thought this clause
would be wholly inoperative. h should be made tie sub-
ject of separate legislation. This clause provided that the
C immissicmers should fix the salaries of the chaplains;
wbieh was ark insult upon the local boards, who were quite
as competent so fix it. He thought the clause so bad in
principle, that be should oppose it.
Me. WA KLE Y thought the clause, as it now stood,
would give gnat offence, and quite agreed with
the last speaker that this was a subject of suffi-
cient importance for separate legislation.—( Hear, hear.)
This clause gave the Commissioners additional power and
ea:renage, and seemed to contemplate the perpeteity of the
Conktnission, but the feeling against it was iecreasi ,g so
strongly that it would be quite impossible fn• the House
much longer to withstand it. With reference to the
cle gy, he thought their conduct -towards the peer, since
the iiktreduction cf the Poor-laws, enthled them to the gra-
titude and a.imrAtion of the country.--( Hear. )
After a few words from Mr. Gisbaree and Mr.
Fieldea against the clause, and from Mr. Hawes and Mr.
P. ilowerd in general support of it, the House cliWed,
when the number; were—
, For the clause
Against it B6
Majority in favour cf the clause —lO5.
Slr H. rLn ET WOOD thee mooed an amendment to
the effect, that the rules and regulations relative to the
education cf children in workhouses be published, and thet
parents should have the power of visiting the schools.
Mr. F. MAU LE expressed a belief that the subject
was one which it would be advisalee to leave to the die-
t etion of Coeprriletionere:
Sir R. PEEL thonght that it would be Very deli able
to allow the schools to be used, whenever that could be
ccnveniently done, for the education not only of the ecrk-
hotoe children, but'for the children of the poor in the
neigirbeurhoorik --( Hoar, )
e. GI ULBU4N thought that snob st, system could
not well come within the scope of the Acts
ssr R. PEEL merely prop cd that the power of giving
the extended education which he sugges'el should be a
discretionary power v.stel in the Commissioners. He
would not define what a ere the circumstances under which
wale editation lie preposill shnttld be given a he would not
say, for instance, whether parties should not be obliged
to make some payment for the education of their children.
Mr. FOX :MULE said that after the explanation
given by the Right Hon. Baronet, he felt disposed to accede
to his views, and he should bring forward, at a future
Veiled; a blaute ettibodyind his recOrnmendfttion:
After some further conversation, the amendment was
withdrawn.
The clause as amended was then ordered to stand part
of the Bil'.
Clituses 12; 13; and 14, were struck out:
On clause being pill,
Sir ROBERT PEEL said it was necessary to devise
some principle of contribution, or they would never be able
to carry the plan of distr:ct schools into effect. They
would never be able to &Vise apy scheme of contribution
to which four-fifths of the guardians would assent.
Colonel WOOD wished to know whether tine contribu-
tions were to be lesied for the erection of the school-
houses, the maintenance of the children, or the expenses
of the establishment.
Mr. FOX M AIME ,sail in the first instance they
Would have to calculate the propo 'ion each Union Would
have to contribute to the erection of the building, and next
to the contribution each would have to pay towards the
maintenance of the children, and the expenses of the estas
blishment, such contribution to be regulated by the num-
ber of children sent by each union. He shotild propose a
clause
H. ERN E y h
regulating
v
tcoonug
t rihtst,utionek
Sir
as this was a part of the
system of national education, it was but fair that a portion
of the expense should be borne by the nation.
Mr, G. PALMER thought the subject of education
had better be made the subject of a separate Bill. The
Commissioners were appointed only for five years, and it
was impossible they could establish these schools in that
time. He objected to the educating together the children
of those who were paupers and those who were not.
He thought none but pauper children should P admitted
to those, as those who were not paupers might think
themselves degraded by being sent there.
Sir R. PEEL had always intended that pauper
children should have the preference of admission into
those schools, but when there were vacancies, when
a considerable portion of the building was unoccupied....
—when the chaplain and the schoolmaster had a consider-
able portion of their time unemployed, he thought it ex-
ceedingly desirable that the children of those who were
not paupers might, on the payment of a moderate sum,
havo an opportunity of precuring education for their chil-
dren. Benevolent persons residing in the neighbourhood
would be frequently found glad to furnish the means to
enable them t.) attain this object, which, in every re-
spect, he considered a most desirable one. He must pro-
test against the doctrine laid down by the Hon. Member
for Essex, that Hon. Geutleman would in fact establish a
privileged ease among the prier—a class who should con-
sider it degradation to come into contact wth the class
immediately below them. It was introducing into this
country all the social inconveniences of a State of Slavery.
It was, in fact, proclaiming that pauperism was degrade.