The Sun.
London, England, 1840-02-20 00:00:00

tion by a Standing Order of the House. The 9th ok
April, 1772, it was resolved, nem. con., " That no Bill
relating to trade, or alteration of the law concerning
trade, be brought into the House until the proposition was
first considered in a Committee of the whole House, and
agreed to by the whole House, and that the second
reading be made a Standing Order of the House." The
question was, whether this Bill related to trade ? If it did,
the House should adhere to its Standing Orders.
NVith respect to the Irish Church Bill, that was a case in
point. After the Bill had been introduced, it was disco-
vered that it was one affecting the revenue ; and not hav-
ing been founded on a resolution of the wole House, it
was withdrawn, and a new Bill introduced, founded upon
such a resolution, in accordance with the Standing Orders
of the House. The reason for such jealousy was obvious.
Every matter connected with trade was necessarily inte-
resting to large bodies of the people ; and, by founding
all measures so connected upon proceedings in a Com-
mittee, it gave every Member an opportunity of speaking
as often as he pleased, and so calling the attention of the
public to it. This certainly was a matter of trade, and
interesting to a large body of individuals. 50.000 persons
were engaged in beer-selling, upon whom were many de-
pendents. The very principle of the Standing Order ap-
plied in a remarkable degree to the Bill under considera-
tion. He would therefore move " That the present Bill
be withdrawn, as proposing an alteration in laws relating
to trade, and was not examined and debated in a Com-
mittee of the whole House, pursuant to the Standing Or.
der of the 9th April, 1772."

Mr. HUME was most anxious to support the Standing
Orders of the House—(Laughter)—and he thought the
point was one which ought to be submitted to the decision
of the Speaker. In his opinion the Standing Order was
a good and reasonable one, and ought particularly to
apply to such a Bill as was then under discussion. Un-
fortunately a number of Bills had passed irregularly, but
his objection to proceeding with this Bill, was that a
Standing Order existed by which no Bill for an alteration
in the trade of the country, or for taxation, could pass
without having previously gone through a Committee of
the whole House.

Sir J. GRAHAM begged to state, before the Speaker
gave an opinion, that he was at least as sincere as the Hon.
Member for Kilkenny in a desire that the orders of the
House should be maintained, and he by no means under-
valued the importance of the present question or the in-
terests at stake, and he thought that if a strict rule could
be applied, the magnitude of the subject warranted its
application. But the question was, did the rule strictly
apply ? He wished to call to the Speaker's recollection
that within the last eight years the House had twice legis-
lated on this very subject; and he had before him the
Journal of the Bth of April, IS3O, by which he found that
the Hon. Member for the University of Cambridge intro-
duced a Bill proposing to make an alteration in the trade
to a much greater extent than that which his Hon. Friend
the Member for Droitwich proposed. The Bill of his Right
Hon. Friend (Mr. Goulburn) was introduced, not by a
resolution of a Committee of the whole House, but
on the Bth of April, 1830, " leave was given to bring
in a Bill permitting the general sale of beer by retail in
England. Mr. Goulburn, the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
and Lord G. Somerset were to prepare end bring it is.
He had thought it right to bring those circumstances un-
der the observation of the Speaker before the decision of
the Chair was pronounced.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. BAINES said, that as this was a measure affect-
ing the public revenue by the imposition of duties
for licences, it was necessary, that it should, in the
first place, receive the sanction of a Committee of the
whole House. The Irish Church Temporalities Bill, in
1833, was a case in point. That Bill had been read a
first time, when it was objected that it ought to have
originated in a Committee of the whole House,
and a Select Committee having been appointed
to search for precedents, that Committee, of which Lord
Althorp was chairman, reported that ally measure impo-
sing a bur then or charge on any class of the people, must
first be discussed in a Committee of the whole House, on
which the was withdrawn and another Bill was intro.
duced on the resolution of a Committee of the whole House.
Mr. GO ULB URN rose amidst cries of" Chair, chair."
He said that the Hon. Member for Leeds had not rightly
stated the case as respected the Church Temporalities Bill.
That Bill had in the first instance been referred to a Se-
lect Committee up stairs—( Hear)—but after that, in con-
sequence of its being regarded as a Bill to tax the clergy,
it was thought expedient to refer it to a Committee of the
whole House. The consideration in that case was diffe-
rent from the objection made to the Bill of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Droitwitch.—( Chair, chair.)
The SPEAKER said that in the application of the
standing orders, he thought the House ought to be guided
not only by the literal interpretation of the Orders,
but by the received practice of the House; and if it
always bad been the practice that such Bills should
be brought in without a Committee of the whole House,
then he thought the Hon. Member for Droitwich was
right. He found by the precedents referred to by the
Hon. Member for Pembroke, that the Bill brought in in
1830 was brought in without being referred to a Com-
mittee of the whole House. But that was explained by the
Right Hon. Member for Cambridge. If he was now called
on to decide what ought to be the strict interpretation of
the rule, as the practice had not been uniform, he should
consider that, strictly speaking, the subject ought to have
been referred to a Committee of the whole House before
the Bill should be committed.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. PAKINGTON said he had but one course to fol-
low, which was to withdraw the measure for the present.
He complained, however, that while he was endeavouring
to remedy what was acknowledged to be a great evil in the
country be should have been opposed, not on the merits
of the question, but on mere technical objections.—(Cries
of " Order, order."

The SPEAKER said that he was sure the Hon. Mem
ber would sec the necessity of not continuing the observe.
Lions which he was making.

Mr. PA K INGTON Chen said that he would not be
discouraged from the attempt which he was conscientiously
making. He would give notice that on to-morrow he
would move that the House should resolve into a Com-
mittee of the whole House for the purpose of considering
the Ist and sth of William IV.
Mr. WARBURTON should observe, in reply to the
allusions of the Hon. Member, that it was only half-an-
hour ago that it had struck him that the measure was con-
trary to the Standing Order of the House, and that the op-
position made to the measure could not have been precon-
certed.

COPYRIGHT.

- - -
Mr. Sergeant TALFOURD moved the second reading
of the Copyright Amendment Bill.
Mr. WARBURTON said he must take the same ob-
jection—(Laughter)—to this as to the last Bal.—
( Laughter.) The bookselling business was peculiarly
called by the technical term " the trade"--therefore the
Bill clearly came within the terms of the Order, " concern-
ing trade, or an alteration in trade." He, therefore, made
the same motion as in the last case.
Mr. HUME seconded the amendment. The House
should be particularly careful in measures affecting the pro-
perty of large classes of people.
Sir J. GRAHAM had most cheerfully yielded to the
decision of the Chair on the former case, tut he could not
but think that it would be a strange construction of the
Standing Orders if they were held to apply to the present
Bill, as it was not a measure to protect generally the trade
in books, but the rights of authors.—( Hear, hear.)
The SPEAKER considered the present Bill very dif-
ferent from that which had already been decided. In his
opinion the Standing Orders could only be held to apply
to• Bills directly interfering with trade in general, which
the present Bill did not. He was therefore of opinion
that the Standing Orders did not apply to the present Bill.
Mr. Sergeant TALFOURD then moved that the Bill
be read a second time.
Mr. WARBURTON said that the Speaker having de-
cided that the Standing Orders did not apply to the present
measure, he felt bound to make a few observations with
respect to it, as it was his intention to move that the Bill
be read a second time that day six months. He applied to
the present measure the same character as he did to the one
introduced last Session—it was a measure introduced for
the benefit of authors and publishers, in which the interests
of the public were not consulted. The interests of the
public, it appeared to him, that the Hon. and Learned
Member had taken every opportunity of bolding up to con-
tempt. In the various arguments which had been made
use of in this question a comparison had been drawn be-
tween the protection given to patent rights and the
protection given to the copyright of authors, and
it had been endeavoured to draw A distinction between
these two classes of rights. It had been said that they
ought not to give the same extent of protection to the in..
ventors of mechanical contrivances as to authors, because
it would be contrary to the interests of the public to do
so. Each invention, it was argued was only a stage
between a preceding and a succeeding invention, and if
they gave a perpetuity of right to the inventor all sue.
cessive improvements would be prevented. Now, as the
Hon. and Learned Member had himself acceded to this
objection, as regarded the question of patents, he thereby
wholly destroyed the principle upon which the present
Bill was founded. An author was in fact an inventor,
and the Hon. and Learned Member contended that he
possessed a natural and indefeasable right the produc-
tion of his mind for all future time; and
if they curtailed
them of it they were committing an act of in justice against
the author. Now a mechanical invention was
nless the pro-
duction of a man's time and intelligence
than at book. As far
as being the production of a man's mind,
went, he would ask
if the steam-engine, or if Harrison's timekeeper, or if that
wonderful invention of Captain Hutt's for making
ab
an invention which he understood that Gallant Officcerhead
perfected during a voyage from the East Indies, without
the assistance of any mechanical aid whatever—he would
ask if these wonderful inventions were less the produc-
tion of men's minds than any work of the Honourable and
Learned Gentlemen ? And therefore, to be consistent, if
he admitted the qualification in a case of mechanical in-
vention, he was not the less bound to do so in the case of
authors' inventions. They should take into consideration
the interest the public bad in preventing privileges and
natents from being extended to perpetuity, or for so long a
period as the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had
propns-ed. He found that mechanical designs, which
wore as perfect in themselves as works of authors,
obtained but little favour front the House. What
what was the privilege that drawers of designs for calicoes
possessed ? It extended only to three months. It was
proposed to prolong it for twelve months; but that was