The Sun.
London, England, 1812-02-14 00:00:00

.
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FPRICE

Lkli)Ei;.l,ll. PAM; LiMENI.

HOUSE OF PEEKS,

THURSDAY, FEB. 13.

ROXRtJRGH CAUSE.

Mr. M'CoNocuvr, was heai•ct in continuation, and
to the end•rf his algurnent,. as Advocate for the Re-
spondent, Sir J. INNES Kanu, Bart. after which,
Mr. LEACH was beard at con4derable length in
reply, on the part of the Appellant, Mi.. BELLEN•
DEN KERR. "f 45 further hearing was aeterred till

tQ-morrow. :
• The Naval Stores Embezzlement Bill was brought
up from the Commons by Mr. W. DUNDAS,
other Members, and read a time; as was aiso a
private Bid, presemed by Mr. BLACKBURNE.
The Bills upon_ihe Table, chiefly private or local,
were, area to; ;yarded in - their respective stages, :ih(l
some judicial business transacted.--Adjourned till
to-morrow.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

THURSDAY, FEB. 13.

The East India Loan Bill went through a Com-
mittee, the Report of which Wal ordered to be te-
ceived to-morrow.

The-Cu ANCELLOrI of the EXCHEQUER gave notice
that he would tb-morrow submit a proposition to
the House, 'on the Subjed of funding Exchtquer
Bills.

,Mr. CURWEN posponed the motion respeail the
delays.ot causes in Coort of Chancery, of which
notice halt been gis en by another-Hon. Gentleman,
'root to •monow till to-morrow sc'smight.
Sir T. TURTON rose to move for accounts of the
Regan- Army, according Id the latest retprns, dis-
tiophing the dumber of infantry and cavalry.
'llse CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER objected to
the motion, an I.afier a few words from the Hon.
I;llrortes, and Mr. CALCIIAFT, the tormer consented
to drop the sobjed.
Mr. WAITEREAD gave notive t,Fat he would more
to-morrow for the postponement of the Election on
o;, the Wootton Basset Petition; which stood for
Tuesday.

to such a Committee' by -the torsidetationS of the
great extent of the case, and the importance of the
circumstance o individuals. He apprehended, how-
ever, -will be boumt, that. Government 'having
done all that it 'possibly could to enforce the aiiins
of the petltionei-s on the Amelican Government, and
havln,j, obtained all than it could for them from ihat
Government, without going to war on the subjeti,
the pr-titioners would ullic,ately experience it to be
ittpracticahi, 10 fix upon s.4le country the obligation
of rayi!,e Itiern the difference bAween the sum
adually received, and that which they alleged to be
due,

. -
Mr. BARING did not see the necessity of referring
the _Petition to the Committee,
.in oraer that the
facts alone might be laid on the table of the House.
The question night be argued on the fats, as stat-
ed in tie Hon. Gentleman's speech
The CHANCELLOR at the EXCHEQUER observed,
that the individuals concerned, wgre desirous rather
that the fads should be reported by a Committee of
the House.

The motion was then agreed to, and a Committee
appointed.

AMERICA.

Mr. WWITBREAD, in rising to make the motion
of which he had given notice, said, he might be
perhaps allowed to indulge in a sentiment of regret,
that on a subject so important as a question_coneern-
ing tlp situation of this country.witir respect to
America, so, few Members should be present. He
would, nevertheless,.bring it forward, as, whatever
might be the feelings of others on the subject, their
conduct should have no effecSupon him, feeling, as
he did, that, in submitting that motion to the
House, with which it was his intention to conclude
(and which Was merely a motion-Ter infortnation),
it was asdaisable, that no delay should occur, that
not one day should be lost. All parties, both in this
country arni, in Atnerica, had professed to deprecate
a war between the two countries, and all parties had
acknoxledged that-such an event was but too pro-
bable. The Government of America and the Go-
vernment of Os country, from the beginning of the
conmetciai and diplomatic contest in which the two
'Ck,lllll ies 'were engaged, had uniformly professed to
be actuated by the most friendly and conciliatory
dispbsitions; but it had unfortunately so turned out;
that, professing such feelings," the breach between
Atnerica and England had been widened from day
to day, till at length it aßeared from the Message of
the President of the United States to Congress, that
war between the two countries would be the inevit-
able consequence of -a perseverance in that system
on the part of England, which had been acted upon
for the last five years. That information which it
;A. as his intention to call for this night was already
before the whole world, with the exception of the
two Houses of Parliament in this country: It was
befote the people of Ei.gland, of France, and of
America,: it was before every person who could read
a Newspaper, but it had not yet been given to the
British Parliament for their information and consi-
deration. One would be glad to,, know why the
Right Honourable Gentleman should now refuse
the inforanation he solicited, which, he understood,
was to be dynied. When the cOrrtluct of Go-
vernment on-former occasions had furnished grounds
for jealousies, and for suspicions that the business
of the State was not well conduded, as had been
the case with respect to the operations in the Penin-
sula, and those of _the expedition to Walchereo,
and in various other cases, information, when asked
for, had at times been given, and at times refused.
When it was refused, it had been stated as a ground
for such refusal, that -the production of the papers
called for would disclose secrets which could not be
made publ c with sifety ; that the granting the re-
quired information would, in some respect or other,
be dangerous, and likely to be felt produdive of in-
convenience. Sometimes information had been
refused, on the ground that it might injure or in].
pede,pending pegociations ; and it had been stated
that toreign Governments complained of their cor-
respondence being published, and were more re-
ser% ed titan they asaauld otherwise be, from an ap-
prehension that their letters would be laid-before the
t -vet Houses of Parliament. In this case be wished
to kuow what ground could be found, to justify a
ratusal of the papers called for ? No plea of the
mature of any of those which he had enumerated
could be urged in the present case. The informa-
tion for which be called, had already been all dis-
closed .to the whole world. He would ask for no-
thieg which was not then on the table of that
House, in the two books before him, which had
been published by orjer of the American Congress.
From reading these he saw great reason to blame
the conduct-of those who had conducted the nego-
tiation pending between this country and America;
but he was not able to make a charge against the
parties concertted in them, because the papers he
called for were not before Parliament, and the House,
SS a House, were ignorant of the existence of the
publications he had alluded to, and it was still in-
tended to keep from them that information- he felt
It his duty to call for. It had been stated by a Right
Hon. Gentleman (and it was wisely -stateu), that'
this country could bear- more from America than
froth any other Power; but was it not also possi-
ble for this country to ad with a greater degree of
conciliation towards America than to any other ?
If what had been said were wise in the first in-
stance, surely it must follow, that would be wise
to ad with a greater disposition to conciliate the
Government of. America, than to conciliate the
more ancient Goves,nments. The reasons which a
recommended such line of policy were obvious;
but, so far from such a principle hosing been- ailed
upon by his Majesty's Government, their condud
bad been marked (as he could show from the papers
be required) by the greatest inattention to the Ame-
s-Can Envoy, jay negleet, amounting to little less
titan diplomatic incivility, while the condutt of our
Ministers in America, since the recall of Mr. Er-
skine, had been in a corresponding degree inconci.
'l.:way. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Can-
ring), who was the colleague of the Right Hun.
Gentleman opposite Ole Chancellor. of the Exche-
quer), at the tone the Orders in Council—those ce-
lebra.ed or famous Orders, in Council (they might
take which 'term they pleased)., were framed,
though not in the habit of voting with him (Mr.
Wiptbread), or ,with that side of the House on
which tie (Mr. Whitbread) usually sat, had never
fetdsed papers called for, when it was proved that
they had been previously printed by order of the
.e.,nretican Government. He (Mr. Canning) pre-
owned, as he (Mr. Whitbread) presumed, that it

troblci be to in-suit that Douse, to refuse that -in-
formation which Was before every body &se, and
therefore never gave opposition to such a motion.
The papers before the House at present came down
to the end of Mr. Erskine's mission. To that Gen-
tleman had succeeded as Ambassador to America
Mr. Jackson, who had not carried on the negocias
Lions between the two countries in such a manner
as to conciliate America. So far from' it, after he
had been there a short time, an open rupture broke
out,-laid‘the recall of that Minister wA the conse-
qtfance. He would not now move for the corres-
pondence betweea Mr. Jackson andathe American
Government, as that business was gone by, and he
had no wish to revive it, as to recall it to merat,ore
could do no good. To Mr. Jackson, after a Tang
lime, succeeded Mr. Forster. The mission of Mr.
Forster had commenced inauspiciously, and in pro-
secuting it, he had not given things an auspicious
turn ; and it had at length terminated most unfor-
tunately for both countries.
„He felt himself com-
pelled to say that ,neither the ihstrudions nor the
conduct of Mr. Forster had had the effed long de-
sired; that of conciliating America. There was an-
other correspondence of which lie had to speak, he
meant the correspondence between the Marquis of
Wellesley and Mr. Pink ney: That correspondence
had commenced in January, 1809, and terminated,
in February, last year, on Mr. Pinkney's quilting
the country. Mr. Pinkney was a man of sound
sense, and had uniformly appeared to be actuated by
a'sincere desire to conciliate the Government of this
country. He had always approaelted Ministers
with- proper diplomatic deference, and with the pro-
per feelings of'an ned Statesman. Firm to
his purpose, yet conciliating in his 'manner, he had
never failed in point of time. A want orpunatual-
ity was in no instance to be charged to him, and the
mode -in which he had endeavoured to accomplish
the object of his mission was in every respect en-
titled to praise. But he was very much afraid that
Mr. Pinkney had not been treated with the same
punctilious respect which had marked the deport-
ment of that Gentleman, towards the English Mini-
s!ers. At theme the correspondence between the
Marquis Wellesley and Mr. Pinkney commenced,
it was known that there was a ga eat soreness-in Ame-
rica, in' consequence ofl what had occurred in the
Course of the mission of Mr. Jackson. The first
letter which Mr. Pinkney had occasion to write to
Lord Wellesley, was on the case of America, with
a reference to the occurrences alluded to. On the
subjed_of the pending riegociations, it was kutiara
there was a remarkable sensibility in Amerie'l as to
the parties by whom they were to be conducted.—
After the termination of Mr. Erskine's mission, and -
the unfortunate (as it proved substitution of Mr.
`Jackson, it might have been h ed that the English
Government would have been particularly careful
that eo want of decorum should give a new orfence.
What was the conduct of Ministers ? Why on the
2d January, 1809, Mr.Pinkney•wrote on the subject
of appointing a new Minister to America, and to
this letter-no answer was given by the English Go-
vernment till the 14th March. On this subject
Mr. Pinkney, in his dispatches, had only observed,
'a I was prepared to expect some delay, but I-did
not expect a delay like this.'' Lord Wellesley gave
an answer on this subject on tie • 14th of March.
On the
.15th, Mr. Pinkney wrote' again to Lett! -
Wellesley on . the subject of the English system of
blockade, a subject most interesting to Atnericd.
After waiting more than a fortnight, an answer was
urned to this on the 2d of the folloWing month.
Oa the, 30th of April, he (Mr. Pinkney) wrote
again on the subject of the Berlin and Milan De-
crees, but to this letter he received no answer. On
the 3d of May, Mr. Pinkney wrote to Lord Wel-
lesley,
complaining of the practice of forging ships'
papers in London, and of making an open traffic of
them. A traffic more infamous and more disho-
nourable could noz exist, and consequently, a more
serious and a more severe charge could not be made
against any Government. Yet, notwithstanding
all this, to Mr. Pinkney's communication on the
subject no answer was returned. On the 23d of
June, Mr. Pinkney wrote 'again, referring to his
letter of the 304 h of April, on the subject of
the Berlin and Milan Decrees, to which no an-
swer had been returned. To this lefter no an-
swer was given. On the 7th of July, Mr. Pinks
ney wrote again on the subject of the delay in ap-
pointing a Minister. To this 'letter no official an-
swer was returned. A personal‘caminunication as,
it was called, (a private note) was all the notice taken
of it. On the Bth of *August, Mr. Pinkney wrote
again, referring to his (Mr. P.'s) letter of the 30th
of April and 23d of June, on the subject of the
Berlin and Milan D:crees, requesting an answer, but
to this letter also no answer was returned: On the
23J July he wrote again; and again no answer was
returned.' On the 25th August he wrote again on
the subject of the revocation of the Berlin and Milan
Decrees, and demanding an answer. Tb this letter
an answer was returned on the 31st of the same
month. On the 15th September he wrote again
to Lord Wellesley, on the subject of the blockade
' of Elsineur by Sir James Saumarez, and on thecir-
cutnstance of Ametican seamen having been taken
out of certain vessels. On December 6, he re-
ceived an answer to this letter, as far as it re-
lated to the blockade, saying nothing on the sub-
ject of American seamen taken out of their ves-
sels. With Respect to them nothing appeared to
'have been done by Government, but they were after-
wards released by the Admiralty. Nothing bad
ever excited his surprise so much as the conduct -of
Ministers at this period of the negociation. It was
known to the whole world that one of the most
difficult points to be adjusted between Great Britain
and America, was that relating to the seizure of
American seamen. Surely-then, when an oppor-
tunity °tiered of doing that which Atner wished,
and which-Ministers admitted to be no more than
justice, it might have been expected that they would
eagerly embrace it with a view of conciliating Ame-
rica. This might surely have been eapealed from a
Minister, who knew how fatal to this country a
rupture with America must prove. This, how-
ever, was not done, though, by the bye, Mr.
Pinkney was apprized of the Circumstance of the
American claims being admitted to be just, yet, in-
stead of eagerly embracing such an opportunity to
conciliate, an answer was coldly and reluttantly
given, and the. Secretary of State for the Foreign-
Department could not trouble himself toaput pen
to paper on the subject, till a very considerable pe_
riod had elapsed. On the twenty-first day of Sep_
teraer, Viuliney wroto again, referring to

ails letters of the'ieth April, 3d,Suree, and iith A u-
gUste 'on the subjea of the Berlin, and Milan 'De-
tree t. and asking an answer. To this no satiSfaelory
answer vas given. Letters dated December 3ih and.
Decemer 10th were written, and these leading to
-no satisfactory result, Mr. Pinckney demanded his
audience of leave. A passage in the speech of the
Prince Regent to Parliament, which appeared at a
period not very remote from the last alluded to on
the subject of America, raised new hopes of an ami-
cable termination of the pending negoicatiorfs. Tire
paragraph, though of itself very equivocal, merely.
stated that discussions were going on, and that every
disposition ekisted to conciliate America, consistently
with the honour and interests of,this country, raised-
great hopes that the negociat:ron was going on in a
way from which there was every reason no hope the
issue would be favourable ; no such thing : at that
time,Mr. Pinkney had demanded his audience of
leave, and the negociations in "Arvierica were at. an
ent.L The negociations had at flee period terniinated,
and they were resumed, and not continued, when
- Mr. Forster was sent from this country. After this,
little appeared to have been done towards effe6ting
the important object which both Governments pro-
fessed to have in view, from the correspondence
between Mr. Foster and the American Govern-
ment, which was then on the table before him. It
bad been hoped when Nit-. Foster was sent out,
that he, had new instructions, but on his anival in
America, it was hound that he-only went eo 'offer
, what had been previously iejeaed ; thus his mis-
.s;en was only preduaive of disapppointment. He
purposely abstained from a discussion of the policy of
the Orders in Council. Whether they were good
,or bad, or whether the Berlin and Milan Decrees
were or were not repealed, were other questions
which would in a few days be brought before the
House'by an Honourable Friend of his, vt hen he
hoped an attendance more proportionate to the ire.
porrance of the subjea Would be given. He would
confine himself to asking for that whictc was neces-
sary to the House, preparatory to their entering on
the subje6t which his Honourable_ Friend would
bring forward. -He only called for that w Inch was
_necessary to a decision, which, as he thought, must
soon be formed on Ministers who, in his opinion,
had brought this country to the verge of a war with
America. The last letter which had passed between..
Mr. -Forster and Mr. Monroe, 'which' had been. pub.
• lished was dated October 31, I 8 1 1, and he wished
to ask for nothing which had not been print,ed. The
message of the President was sent to Congress on
the eth of November following, and on the loth a
Cemmittee on Foreign Relations made a report of
an unfavourable nature for this country, and !bete
was no doubt but it was the feeling of America that
the mission of Mr. Forster had been totally ineffec•
tual, and had in point of 'feet' terminated. Under
these circumstances, his humble motion would:only
call for what had here already been made public.
He was sorry to say it, but the correspondence be-
tween the two Governments was so voluminous, and
the novelty was.so completely worn off, that to those
-who are most deeply interested in the question of
peace or war between the two countries, it must be
very tiresome to read, and in consequence of that,
be was afraid that few 'gave it the attention and
consideration which it merited. He did not Mean
to throw any reflection on the talents of the corre-
tpoodents on either side, as when a correspondence
had been carried on for years on the same sutijea,
it was-totally impossible to make it otherwise than
-palling. On the important question of peace or
war with America, the House was net called upon
to decide that night ; he only called upon them to
demand that infortnati on ,which could alone enable,
them to decide on that great questidn. They could
not properly decide on it without having the papers
for which he called to refer to on their table. Howe,
ever liole might befell on this subject in that House,
outjif doors-its importance was well known, and no
small interest was taken even in the success of the
motion-he was about to make. Whether England
had-aced unjustly towards America, or whether Ame-
rica had acted unjustly towards England, -whether
blame ought to be thro n upon France, or upon
England, or upon America, he did not call upon
them to decide. Whatever was really the case; and
whether the Orders in Council were wise or unwise;
whether.they had been acted up to, or whether to
ad up to them had been found impracticable, were
things which he could not call in question ; but of
this, he believed, no one could doubt; that great
commercial distress had been experienced, and that
it the market of America were to be thrown open
to us, •it would be felt to be a great and signal bless-
ing. War with America, it was equally obvious,
would be a great evil : and war once commenced,
no man could tell what might follow. It might be
well for us to talk about putting down America, _of
inflicting chastisement, &c. as if it .was Mahe power
of England to annihilate her : we might talk this
well, but we could not put America down. She
was there where,we had Placed her ; it was not in
the power of England to annihilate her, and it was
therefore the interest of England to be her friend.
He was not certain that the time was not gone by •
for conciliating America, and had hp spoke eight
arid forty hocrs sooner, he might have been inclined
to have pronounced it altogether past. He had had
fears that the Constitution frigate, which went front
France in the course of the last month, had carried
that with her. which might prove fatal, to this coun-
try. Within the last twenty-four hours new ai ri-
vals had partly removed such apprehensioesr The
aft spoken of as likely to pass, admitting English
manufactures which had 'been purchased tona fide
befose February 1, 1811, had given the people of
this country great hopes of relict, as it was felt that
aging on the false sw earing system noticed by M.
Pinkney, almost any quantity of. goods might be
sworn into America. The joy, however,' expressed
at this prospeat of an opening market, sufficiently
proved how great a blessing such a change would
be considered. The Orders in Council had disap,
pointed those by whom they were framed, and there
was hardly a merchant to be found who did not ;om-
plaint of their operation. On this question, however,
he did not call upon the House to decide, but• he
called upon them over and over again to put them-
'selves in possession of that information which he
had endeavoured ro shew was so necessary. He
could opt but admit that with him America was.
extremely popular. He. looked back to that con;
.tesr in vs hick she had been engaged with this coun-
try, with reverence and admiration for America:
That contest had • terminated as all such corittits
should terminate. He felt no jealousy of the pro.

'openly of America, convinced as he was, that
nroper managenient here, th- more she flourished,
the more tk*ould thii cow try flourish. He had seers
nothing; after all,that had b -said,- that could be
looked upon as injustice on the p.irt of Amrrica.
He had heard a very great
.outcry against her in-
justice, but heitad Seen none of it. He had heard
•it trumpeted forth long ago, that; America wal
enaged in secret hostility against this country, but
he did not believe it. He believed that Ame-
rica, placed in the extraordinary sit!la!ion in whichshe had stood, that of the only in th.t. world,
had done as every other pots er would, had endeavour.:
ed to-avail herself of all the advantages of her situa::
lion. He thouOit- that England had been u 'just
America, and had required that of her which it wai•
impossible for her to achieve. 'He thought France
had anted unjustly to her, •and requ'red that of het
it was impossible she could achieve. Placed
in this Situat!on, she endeavoured, as long as she
could, to -prec.erve her independence by defensive
operations. The Non-Importation A 8 had tiled
been enaEled, and afterwards the Non-Inter
course A. In the measures she had .adopter;;
it did not appear to him that there was: partiality
towards France or injustice towardi England, but
he thought the Government of France had beeri
-wise enough to recede from their measures, and
thus gained advantages which we denied ourselvei.
TheJaill spoken of as Itkely to paSs, would, he thought;
if passA, be likely to gite umbrage to France, and
it was the duty of the English Government to en-
deavour, by conciliation, to ay.il themselves of any
difference that might arise
,between America and
,France. -He did know that any thing that he could
say in addition to v, hat he had offered would be
likely to influence the House more than what he
had already advanced, he should therefote conclude,
and whatever might be the fate of this motion, he
should feel the satisfaction which had consoled him
on other occasions, however be had failed of gain-
ing the tbrat he had- in view, that satisfatlion aris-
ing Iron a conscientiousness of having discharged
his duty. He concluded by moving-,

4_4 That an Address be presented to his Royal Highness the
Prince Regent, pra)ing that he would he pleased ro order
copies of all'the correspondence which had taken place he-'
tweets his Majesty's Ptincipal Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs and the American Minister, or Charge d'Affaires re,
sident in England. from fan. 1, a to, up to the latest period,
together with all documents referred to its that correspend-
as also copies of the correspondence between Mr. Fors-
ter and Mr. Munroe, together with the documents referred
to therein."

Mr. STEgHEN agreed with-the Hon. Gentleman,-
that it. would not be wise to discuss the Orders iu
Council at that time; but while he was glad that he
had, delivered him frbm the necessity of entering,
into the question of their justice. andpolicy, tee was'
sorry that he should have thought it not incoesist.;
ent to jump from the question, to the general eon..
elusion that the conduct of the English Goveinment
towards America was wrong. From this untair
statement (he would call it so) of t-he Horioutable
Gentleman, he felt himself entangled in 'a dilemma;
If he went into the policy and the justice of the Or-
ders of Council, and of the conduct of the Englis:4
Government, towards America, he should be ac-
cused of provoking, a kdiscussion, which it W'l4
desirable to avoid ; while, on the other hand, if
he did not go into them, it was imeoss;ble to
do justice to what he believed to be the strong-
est ease that ever one country had against ane
other. He would take whet he thought the safer
course, and not enter into the evidence. He wouia
not enter upon it, because he hoped they would he'
delivered from the necessity of imparting ,to that
Rouse what had passed on so delicate a subject.
With this feeliug 'he should content hinvseli With
general assertion,- as. the Honourable Gentleman
had done, and lie would declare that there never
was a charge more unfounded than that which they
had just heard, of the conduel of Phis country
tieing unjust towards America. On the contrary',
nothing but the strongest aversion to a war could
justify the English Government in tire siroog
anxiety they had evinced, and the almost humiliat-
ing forbearance which had marked their condud
throughout the negociations, to avoid that which
the Honourable Gentleman had stated, but which
he (Mr. Stephen) did not feel would be so fatal
to this country, He questioned not w Nether we
would go to war -with America, but whet het or net
America would go to war with us. On this subie6l
he did not wishdo speak, as its discussion cooks lead,
to nothing ol good ; but if the Honourable Geotle-
man would force the question to be agitated, as he
could if he pleased, he (Mr. Stephen) would pledge
himself to be there, and to follow him throngh the
whole subjed: Till then, to what had been ad-
vanced, he should only oppose a general negative-
The Orders in Council were not unj.ist, nor even.
,impolitic, and he denied that the people of Awe'
rica, or the merchants of this country looked up-01
them as havieg been so injurious to trade as they
had been said to be., If they did do so, they must
have forgotten all that 'had passed in that -H' use on
the subject, and go in the face of evidence which
proved to demonstration that such was not the fa'ot,
With respea what had been said of t4„4 ;rower
,of this country to annihilate America, lie i,venloi
ask the Honourable Gentleman where in that flouSc
he could find it e.sected that England could or would
annihilate Amorica ? He knew pretty well the serm
timents of many of the Gentlemen who sat inetlbet
House, and he,knew of but one feeling on the silt)
jea—an earnest desire to avoid a rupture. Wheti
the possible annihilation of America, in the event of
a war, W4S contemplated, it was only from an idea of
the resistance that America would make herself, to
the measures of its own Government, if placed in
such a situation. He was, however, far from think-.
ing with the Hon. Gentleman, that the more Attlee
rica flourished; the more this country- must necessa-
rily flourish. If, for instance, America got all 04
carrying, and all the coasting trade of France, to lend.
the manufattures both of the new and old world, it
was to him a .paradox how the prosperity of America
could tend to that of England. He thought, it wits
not very wise nor very politic in: the Hon. Gentleman
to speak of the peVjkiry and fraud which might prods
by the measure tiOW in contemplation in America,
as resulting from • the Orders in Council. }Vhere•
those perjuries and frauds u ere omit. praelisd, was
whew the Orders in Council did not exist. The
Honourable Gentleman forgot the partial repeal 'of
the Orders in Council, and -4)vedooked the circunh.
stance of that perjury Which he (Mr. S.) deplored as
much as any man could, being most prevalent in the
Baltic, and in the trade with those placei which
were relieved from the operation of the Orders ice

•
C )11,70. . . ,
I\7l rein could- be more anxTotis lo hvert
Ih impending c it Oca war dein- hi-nself ; but he
contended that it d: t ri-nt• rest cteth hi., 'Right Ho-
nourable Friend, or with the Government Of thk
country, to dthermine the qoesrion of war or
peace.i He believed Anse, ica was_ not in her con—
cua what the Honourable Gentleman supposed her
In be, He believed that she now ad, anced pre-
tensions which -she had not advanced before, and
which the Honourable Gen dem in had never ad.
vanced for her. He believed h,he had been led,bs
Prance to- adv ince pretensicels which she had not
thought of before. On the; siesseei he 'wished to
say nothinh, but found it ditlicuit to restrain himself
from defending the line of conderci pnrhh-d by this
country moreat large. It was not a question with
poverntrient whether or Not we should go to wr
:-vith America, but. whether it was possible to re-
04ain at p,-lace? He s (mid not say without risking
our grestness-he whorl not say without risking
Our honour—he would not soy withOutrisking even
our security, but without risking-the very existence
0 this country.
Mr. CortWts "had not heard one argument.
against the motion hf, his Hon. Friend, except the
one which went to state that the House was not the
fit place for discussing the differences between the
IWO GoVernments. He deprecated the idea which-
.teemed every day to be gaieing ground, that it was
necessary for the well being of the country, to shut
taut information fiom Parliament on subjects of the
Ereate,t imporiance to the existence of the country.
The Hon: and Learned Gentleman had not justi-
fied the condua of the f3iitish Goverment towards
APlerica,as reprobated by his Hon. Friend. Was
the conduht complained, of, such as ought to be_
pursued, and tolerated against the Minister of
an independent Nation ? Was there a single
individual in• this country (supposing America
had treated the British' Minister in a similar
Manner), who would not have held up his hand
in favour of war, and had not America great
reasons for complaining of the- arrogant and inso-
lent manner in which her Minister was received ?
/le should have conceived, under citcum-
stances, it would have been impossible for Ministers
M have denied the papers. The state of things
- called upon triem, in his opinion; to review and re-
trace their steps in the course of the discussions..
"With respeCt to what had been stated isbout the Or-
4ers in Council, lie thought the Right Hon. Gen-
tietnan (Mr. Perceval) might have retracted his opi-
nion 0 the effect of those orders, the more so, as
• a great statesman had so done. The principle of
loe measure was:founded on injustice, and it would
be well tor Ministers to consider the state of the
country, when they resolved to persevere in those
• °Me's. Much had been. said
,abroad, , as to change
of Ministers; he trusted and hoped, that if a change
took place, their successors would notesuppo)t these
Measures. A change of men, without a change
er sentutrents and policy, would have no effect. •
,it would Much rather there was no 'change, it
;t was to be the CdSQi. If the country was doomed
1°
„perish, better would it be to perish with the
.`'lnis'ers who leas:- brought us -into -the. -mischief.
Ihere certainly w,s lamentable.stipineneis iu ca-
lain pet ous.abo o she iseerests of the empire. The.
'l°n m
• Gentlean ti "'.lulled .to the change about
to take place in the _ .nd expressed a wish,
that t i,e neJs ,es pur,,, a, .rid be such as to call
11,1)00 • o juh...e to the character of tle•t'
-u4secutive
; -tt t s..tisfy , Le..ntry they lead
I°,teed a ; ,i oorion •0( that ee:sone
Chert- - were t •vrost important subjects which
"lied tor leis Feriens aecation. , The first was, the"
stateof lielneh, eed ti et was a sebj. ct w ich re-
, quired the eeee mieehe iniestigation : next to .hat
‘C'aS the shhe ;rations with America. The
dental ni tee it chi hien. Gentleman to furnish the
1)11)( rs askeu nis Hon. Friend, was a proof ..,f his -
hostility to America. He would repeat it—a thwofe
1)1 ltis homht t ! Stet would argue that h was
.not
culy a proof of his hostility, but that he was afraid
tu ohet the discussion upon fair and ~qual grounds.
The: CHANCELLOR of the EXCHF.QLIER OlYierved,
that he did lea k: ,w what the lionoutairle Geetle-
ntan was preeared to argue; but most. certainly he
not •maintaio by any argument .4•lnd his en-
lightetted rtind could ,furnish, h it the opposition of
his Hon. and Lear:eel Friend was grounded upon
11°-sti:ity towards Arne ica. The. Right Honourable
„
`eolleman was prepared to maintain that the resi•t-
aOce which he should gave to the m-tion also, was
not with a view to quarrel, but froma well ground-
ed apprehension;' that this species of discussion
Which it ,sould open, when the country was not
necessarily on its defence, was such as to"preclude
In fairness the ,granting it. To avoid these dis-
tussions, which would naturally tend to irritate
and inflame, was much to be desired, and the House
W"tild a6l wisely in refusing the papers. He agree 7
cd with the Honourable Gentleman, the question
was one of extreme interest and . importance. If
America was involved in a war in consequence of
the termination of the dis.cussiOns, whatever he might
say Q. think as to the temper in which those dis-
ssions had been carried ,on, the languaee on the
part of the British Government had been'
' concilia-
rry and sincere.—His Majesty's Government had
een most anxiously alive to every thing which
could ,end to produce a good understanding. En the
execution of an imperious duty, they had attended
t° rights which had long been Contended for, which
were necessary to be maintained, and which,
'l,l relinquished, would have sacrificed every thing
near to the country. The Honourable Gentleman
(Mr. Whitbread) had carried the discussion far-
ther than he intended, on a mere Motion for
Papers to afford informatien ; the - tnesits of
the subject would be much better considered in the
o.eat' question to be brought forward by the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Brougham). He was not, there-
fore, desirous to enter into it now,-and lamented the
'lon. Gentleman should have discussed the policy of
the Orders in Council, as forming a pact of that
question. He lamented in common with his Hon:
Vriend (Mr. Stephen) that the Hon. Gentleman had
s not shewn throughout his speech that disposition
Which he professed to set out with, and have ab-
stained from the discussion altogether. However
the conduct of Hon. Gentlemen opposite was not
always squared by the rules of correctness : the
view whielethey sometimes took of subjects did not
yrevent them from giving an opinion against the
justice of the cause -of their country. He lameut-
ca it more, because the House would pot forget
that the very system which the Ho,. Genleman
Low

• :
IF they ntaintained the piinciple %;-1)6,n in office,

which 0,,-y since found it convenient to Condemn',
surely it was too much to taunt the present Govern-
ment with the adoption cf that systeM. When
men sot great- abi,lities, of great consequence, and of
high rank in the State, held forth not only to Ame-
rica, but to the world, that the system was one of
injustice, was it to be wondered at that America
should find fault With it ? The Hon. Gentleman,
t herefore;w when he charged the fault of pursuing that
system upon the present Government, must have
been greatly, misinformed. In calling upon th'em to
renounce the principle Of those measures, he seemed
to lose sight that the renunciation more properly ori-
ginated with his own friends, if t 4; measures were
b :d. With respe6t to the correspondence which

took place between the Marquis. Wellesley and, Mr.
Pinkney, on the subjea of blockade, that question.
had Iretn -distinWy stated, and it would not be
necessary to refer to that correspondence; but it
the Honourable Gentletnqn
,thonght there was no-

thing conciliatory, on the part of the Noble Mar-
quis, he was mistaken : he was not well aware
how he could come to that conclusion, unless it was
owing to the eeat partiality which he professed to
have for America. The recal of Mr. Jackson would
he best explained by referencelo the letter; and it
-must be reeolleaed, that Mr. Pinkney had many
opportunities of conversing with - the Noble Mar-
quis, and Mr. Pinkney did not complain that all
was not done to satisfy his Government on that head.
There wete passages in the letter, which over and
over again state -that Mr. P. had no doubt in his
own mind that a Minister would -be appointed sa:is-
.fatiory to the American Government. It was re-
-peatedly explained to that Gentleman, that the
cause which operated to prodOce the delay in the ap-
pointment, was to be attributed to the illness of the
King. With resped to the-impolicy and in' injus-
tice of continuing the Orders. in Council, he would
much rather the Honourable Gentleman had gone
into the argument on that head, than to have con-
tented himself with mere asseertions. The Honour-
able Gentleman could not deny that it was po-
litic and just to retaliate upon Fiance. The re•
suit of the Councils Of 1806, at which Mr. Fox
assisted, and the necessary act which ensued, was
not one of injustice towards _America and France.
Surely it was nut very decorous for persons to lend
their hands and voices to deny systems which their
own friends proposed. He was prepared to assert
and to maintain, that the Orders in Council were
consistent with justice as letween nation and na-
tion in amity, under the present state of the world.
Thu Honourable Gentleman had asserted, that the
adoption of these orders led to Mercantile distress.
In making such an assertion, he begged the xvhole
of the question. The tact was not so, and he (Mr.
P.) must totally
.deny it. Whatever causes for
complaint might exist ko the commerci,il world, tho',e
causes could not be traced to the Orders in Conn-
,cil ; for it‘was owing to their existence that the d:s-
tress is not greater. The distrois was to be paced
to the account' of what was termed the Con mental
System of Exclusion to time ManufactureS of Great
Britain. The Orders in Comic% so lar from ex,end-
ing that exclusion, were calculated to give relief.—
But, however, he would nut anticipate the disco,-
sion, which would come much better on anoAmer
night, but for the present would notnend that the
OrderF, in Council were neither ;: or unjust.
Th;ltru. principle upon wh I,e di-cussionS !lad

)ecrr carried on with the Minister of America, were
founded upon a sincete.conviaiOn, I hat the title
prosperity of America was that of Great-Britain ;
that this country would, by persevering in tile ami-
cable tone, derive greater ad vantagesmut of liar pros-
verity, than could be derived by any aCt of hostility ;
That those adva-.tav-s would be secured by peace, and
lost by-war; but that such a disposition would be best
maintained and practised; ti it d:d.not interfere with
the rights of this Country. -In supporting, therefore,
the (Wets in Council, he did not conceive that be
w as doing .- hat, under all circumstance, could be con-
sidered as injurious to the-mercantile and inanufac-
turing interests, and acquiescing in the system of
France, would not be acting wisely towards the in-
terests of that class of the community. No person
who had read the parrs,.could conceive that there-
peal of the Orders in Cooneil, would relax the sys-
tem of the French The Right Honourable
Gentleman in furtherace of this opinion, read an
extraa from the letter of M. Tun eau, the Alinis-
ter from France to America, addressed to the Secre-
tary of St ate in that country, in which he asserts that
it was the view of the Government of Gr_eai Britain
to break. the ties of friendship between America
and this contry—that the views of the Ruler of
France was to exclude the produce of the ,soil and
manufadures of the common enemy. Was it pos-
sible, then for any merchant or manufacturer to
conclude that the repeal of the Orders in Council,
under the existence of the Berlin and Milan D,.creeS,
would contribute towards their interest The sys-
tem of France was to convert trade into a sore, and

commerce into a measure of hostility. In refusing
the papers now moved for, he was not influenced
by any (ear or apprehension of the discussion that
would follow with regard to the policy of conduct
pursued by Govetnment. If he fat, as the Hon.
Gentleman had chosen to assert, viz, that the cor-
respondence was closed, then he_ would have no
ground for refusing them ; but he must say,.
that however slight the hope of tile discus-
sions terminating successfully, he would not be
the first person to eXtirguish that hope, and to call
forth by angry discussions that the, two Govern-
ments had not discussed the matters uilh per-
fect harmony. There were points in dispute which
might be discus-sed in this House with more pro-
• priety hereaftcr. All that he anxious to have it
understood in the refusal was, that the state of
things had not come to a final coi'clusion. The
Honourable Gentleman -(Mr. Comer)) had said,
that he trusted the persons
,who were to succeed
his Majesty's present Ministers would not pursue
the same measures. Now, what golden dreams that
Hon. Gentleman had in his imagination he ct.uld
not conceive, but as fr,r as he (Mr. P.) was ac-
quainted witti them, toe Hon. Gentleman's conso-
latory prospects would not open to his 'iew quite so
pleasant as_he expected. But it the principles on
which the Hon. Gentleman had hrgued were to be
adopted by the House, in order to dictate to the
Government„ anxious as they *might suppose him
to be for office, be could assure the Hon. Gen-
tleman that he would not be the Minister to carry
them into etleel.

this country should go to War America, at least
we ought to be fully prepared.
Mr. HEituatti' was the friend of peace, and thought
at all_ events war should be avoided. He had great
doubts upon the propriety of going- to war, and con-
ceived, it the maritime rights so much insisted on
were to be persevered in, it must be done against all
Enrope..

Mr. A. BARING thought that it .was hatd;y possi-
ble to avoid war. He trusted to God, that if it was
to commence, the terMination of-it might r-rt be so
fatal as she last-war With America. ,With respect to
the causes fur complaint, it was always undvrst6td
that America ha.f great cause for complaint. The
HonouraOle Gentleman went into an examination of
the policy of the Orders in Council, contending,
that, from the inf6rmation which he had received,
Franca had ,repealed the obnoxious part of her
decrees—at least, that it was never acted upon.
When we saw numerous bankruptcies, when we
saw an army in one, and petitions, from various of
.our manufacturing towns, it was impossible not to
feel the importarvie of the present question. As to
our maritime rights, •he wished to know Which of
them were in danger? As far as his information
went, there was no dispute now on the original
poi`--that of blockade, for the correspondence of
Mr. FoSter and Mr. Munroe proved them both.
to be agreed,. that a blockade by a sufficient
naval force, was to all intents and purposeS a
good and legitimate blockade. As to the partial
repeal of the Orders in Council, that was of all
others the strongest proof of the folly of the system:
He knew not why there should have been any re-
laxation' with respeCt Co the South of Italy. The
question was certainly of sufficient importance to
call for the attention of Members;, and notwith-
standing all the imputations to which those were
exposed vs ho opposed the condua of Ministers, he
felt no hesitation in_undertaking that responsibility.
His-opinion was, that America:and the Indies might
have afforded us a field to work on until a better state
of thirios should have presented itsslf in other quar-
ters. In consequence of the mistaken policy adopt-.
ed.towards that country, the whole of South Ame-
riea was in a slate of retiellion and insurrection.

Mr. STEPHEN, in explanation, said, she did not
state that the tiade of the country was in a flourish-
ing condition, but that wh never ruin had taken
place,-was in const•quence of the Berlin and
Decrees, and that the Orders in Council had raised
the produce of our trade to several millions beyond
what it produced before their enactment.

Mr.. WILB.EIiFORCE said, that when two coun-
tries were iu a state of pending negociation, it was
improper to move for papers by which that negocia-
tion was liable to be affeeled. Those who,- under
such circumstances, called upon the Government
to prodece therni rendered themselves responsible
for the mischief Which then prodettion might
create. - The case was somewhat altered, when
these papers were already before the public, but
still it was bard to separate them from those
which were at the moment passing between
the Ministers of the two countries. If he.
agreed* in opinion, with the Hon. ,G..ntlenian (Mr.
Curwen), who had argued with such extraordinary
animation in favour of taking the power out of the
hands of Ministers-,---if he agreed in his opinion of
their principies, he should certainly come to the same
conclesiOn ; hot reposing as he did a ivrfect confi-
detiee in his Right Hon.. Friend (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer), trusting as he did to the purity of
his motivea,and the uprightness of his view s, he could
not deny his claims to. the confidence of_ the House,
withoUt Seeing good reason to the contrary. As to
:he point of conciliation, he agreed in its propriety,
and - also_ in the answer which was given to it. If
his Hon. and Learned Relation (Mr. Stephen) had
followed the last speaker, he. certainly muse_ have
gone into the question, but would that have tended
to conciliation ?—When they knew the different
opinions entertained by the two great parties, they
must. know that it was not, when they looked fur-
ther, and considered the nature of public discus-
sions on one side, the conduct of America arraigned
on the other, that conduct justified, and the conduct
ot. England deprecated, and considered how far the
passions and. prejudices of men were liable to hurry
them in such a discussion, they must agree that the
great and imt ortant 'end' of conciliation was not
likely to be answered under such circumstances.
If the objeel was conciliation, the discussion of the
different topics of complaint and recrimination did
not. „afford .the best means of its accomplishment.
—Tite motion evidently was not for knowledge,
as every person was individually .possesses of
it at
.present ; it was therefore a preparation
foe discussion, 4hicit, as he
.had already declar-
ed, could Dot answer the' purpose intended.---
He would confess, and he was not ashamed to con-
fess it, ,that there was not at all times a sufficient
Kttention in this country to the spirit of conciliation
towards'. other countries, and particularly towards
. America, It would be well, if persons in high situ-
ations of Government had been more abundant in
their, civilities to that ination, which, being anew
one; was naturally more jealous of etiqUette, possi-
bly from 'feeling that It did not stand on as high
ground. as.other Continental countries. There Was
scarcely any measure likely to prevent a war, in
which he would not willingly follow his Honour-
able Friend, if he Might be permitted to call him
so, who with great consistency had always been
ready to sacrifice private feelings to the promo-
tion of such Objects as the present. He (Mr. Wilbe-
rforce) should oppose the motion, because he did
not think it calculated to promote the spirit of con-
ciliation, and consequently not likely to prevent the
dreadful extremity which it must be the wish of all
to avert. He well remembered that at the time of
what was called the great American war, appeals
were made to the national honour ; he disapproved
of such appeals,. either then or now, because he did
not think the national honour committed. It was
not by discussing the various topics of injury, nor by
representing thedanger to be apprehended, or the me-
lancholy stale of our commerce at present,- that we
should melee any advance in the spirit of conciliation.
He- believed that the state of our commerce was
melancholy but then it shoOld be remembered
that that very melancholy brought along with it
dispositions against whiCh it would be necessary to
guard, and among others.a disposition to Impatience,
a disposition to grasp at any thing rather than wait
for the proper result of measures, which after all
might be found to contradict the prophecies of those
who opposed them. He should abstain cautiously

•
not . help saying, that they were extremely popular
at the time they were first brought forward. Both
on the one side and on the other, they should tike a
general view of the future as well as the past, should
give up whatever they could, consistently with the
justice and the policy. oftheir own country. He bought
the would be injurious to r‘i, box much more so
to America, but could not th;rik it Fossi* that his
Right Hon. Friend (the chancellor of the Exche;
quer) any more than himself, could look upon
that as -a reason for wishing for noSiilities. His
Right Hon. Friend presided over the country, a, d
was bound, particularly, to watch over its interests;
but his mind was not so narrow,
,his views soeon-
tiaaed, or his principl.s and. feelings
so circnna-
scribed, as to ado;fit such a rule of reasoning or
of ailing: He would repeat, they should make
any consistent sacrifices, but they should not give
up what was necessary to the suppri of their
commeree, to the supply of their marine force,
or to the prosperity of the nation. \ One •of
his reasons' for the vote he should give this
night was the propriety of preventing angry dis..
cossions to which America might look, without
.making those allowances for the eagerness of debate,
which ought always to
.be: made, and which she
might be iin'eced to regard as specimens of ti.
more deliberate feehngs of the heart, of which, in
fael, there were no tpecimenS There was-,;ie
would assert, whatever might be the impressions
of particular persons, there was a wish, in this
Country. to conciliMe America, to treat her with
every attention and every respe6t. This was evi-
dent from the manner in which the American Mi-
nister had been received in all public assembles
while in this country, from the warm and cord at
feeling which was manifested toward, him. He
did not know whether it -was prudent to say so-or
not, but he could not help thinking that the con-
duct of the American Government and people were
not actuated, by the same feeling with respect tows.
He could not help expressi,g his,astonishment at
an assertion of the Hon. Genilerhan on. the floor,
that the conduct of the American Government had
been impartial between this country and France.
Heliped that America and England would under-
stand each other better; that they would look ueolt
the question between them in a broad and general
way, and decide-upon it in a manner;snitable to their
respective characters. •

Mr. H. THORNTON objeCted to the motion,
though not precisely on the same grounds with the
two Gentlemen who preceded him. He conceived
that the interference of the House, say motion,
would imply a preSumplion of blame to Ministers;
a vote carried against Government on this occa-
sion, might deem to shew that Parliament differed
from them in their policy towards America a
length to which he was not prepared to go. The
motion was also unfortunate, as a pre-judgment of
the question, for the real question was, whether the
Orders in Council were worth maintaining by a
war ? He was one of those who voted against the
Orders in the first instance, but still he did not think
that the high ground of morality which was taken
by some who objected to them, was altogether can-
did: The experiment was now made, and he wish-
ed to know whether any practical advantage could
be stated in their defence. A fair estimate should
be made of its advantages and defeas. He should
not limit the nuesiion to the. consideration, whether
the conditions were complied with or nor,. for he
believed the fad to be, that many reasons concurred
to render such compliance inconvenient. If it could
be Shewn that the Maritime tights of which they
had heard so much, were absolutely necessary to
our existence, he would agree that they should be
supported at all hazards, but a great part of the
question was, whether the Orders in Council dd
not prevent ,America from 'carrying continental pro
duce into competition with ours in the South Ame.
rican and colonial'markets. On all these different
heads he hoped the commercial Gentlemen would
be prepared to come forward With fads.
Mr. BARING explained.
Mr. HUTCHINSON said, the question was one of -
great' impor?ance, and so far from being disposed to
place confidence in Ministers, he wished, if poSsible,
that power might be taken out of their bands alto-
-get her, in order to avert the calamity which he fear.
ed hung over the country under their auspices. He
deprecated the idea of war, and recommended that of
conciliation, not Merely :with regard to Ametica,
but to places nearer home. He agreed with -the
Member for Devonshire in preferring war to humi•
Nation, but would recommend to Ministers to be
less tyrannical. If the qnestion was put to,_ him,
he should have no hesitation to decide against his
own country. His Hon. Friend's motion• was
right ; it was tight and necessary as a means of in-
formation to the Member for Devonshire, and other
respectable individuals who had not informed them--
Selves upon the subject. Could any man who heard
the Minister talk this night of the disadvantage land
inconvenience which musi result front a war-, pro-
nounce ohn capable of aaing as Minister of this
country in the perilous condition ?it which it was
placed ? The House wanted papers to see what the
rights contended for were, to see *whether it wrs
intended to ad the part of plunderers, or of real
claimants on justice, and thereby to decide whether
they would go along with Government in their de. -
tnands, or declare themselves against the intention
of plunder. His Hon. Friend on the floor was not
answerable for the condud of the other Adminis-
tratiorts. He had stood by himself in the present
instance, and' he called for information which the
conduct of other persons would not make him less
intilled to. The Metnnsr for Carlisle, in a short
and impressive, speech, had expressed a hope that
the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite would soon be
out of place, and that others would succeed who
would adopt another conduet towards America and,
Ireland. He (Mr. H.) little clued what men were
iu office, so that the principle of conciliation was
adopted ; but the answer io that wish could not fail
to Make an impression on film. The answer was,
not positively,. that he would continue in office,
but that it was pobable he would, and that it he
did, he would hold it on principles different front
those recommended by the Member for Carlisle.
He had declared now in the awful coinmenc!ment
of this new reign, that if he continued in office,
with his present colleagues, or any other patched•np
Administration, he would persist in the same un-
conciliating plan with respect to the two countri:•s
to which he alluded :if he did so, he (Mr. I-I.) was
convinced, that the Monarchy would be shaken to