The Sun.
London, England, 1841-01-25 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, MONDAY, JA.N EJARY, 25, 1841.

from then told the Noble Lord that his next division would be
better. He told him that ho would not give up his oppo-
asnitiiiodnatuendlesFsutnhde ratesand '
(Cheers.) The Noble Lord took the counsel that had
waletoregette
to
be
from the
eremoved the
ntnr Con-
solidated
Dissenters,—
been given him, and never brought forward the proposi-
tion again. He only mentioned this for the purpose of
begging them to look at the speeches that have been made
on this occasion, and they would have no reason to quarrel
with the opinions that were given utterance to by Lord
Althorp and Lord John Russell. But what, then, had
been the next step of Ministers? He was indeced to refer
to it because his friend near him bad referred to the :rro-
perty of the Church. Did not Lord Jahn Russell, or,
at least, Mr. Spring Rice, as the organ of the Govern-
ment, bring forward that which he called an excellent
proposition, such as no honest man could object to—one
that was just, and therefore one that ought to be carried ?
He had said that there was a large amount of Church
lands so managed that they could not be made available for
the purposes of the Church. He took it that all property
of the Church was public property, and where it was not
administered as it ought to be, to that extent were the
public interests injured. It was proposed, then, to take
the Church lands as they now existed, and it was pro •
pcsed to let them at the full value, as every other property
was let, and it was shown that the excess would be six or
seven hundred thousand a year, a sum amply sufficient to
pay fcr Church-rates and all other demands similar to it.
That, he said, was an honest proposition, and one that
ought to have been adopted.—( Llear, hear.) First, it
took away the corrupt administration of the property, and
then, by a just administration of the same property, it
afforded funds for the repairs of the edifices of the Establish-
ment, and freed the Dissenters from all demands for them.
On a narrow division, it was discovered that other interests

came in which checked and marred the proposition. Minis-
ters found they were unable to carry it. They then withdrew
the measure altogether, and from that hour to the present
no step had been taken on the part of the Government.
After the opinions that had been expressed by Lord John
Russell and Lord Althorp, he said to those assembled, do
not blame, them, but rather blame the House of Commons
as it is at present constituted. He had no hesitation in
saying that as the H'JUSC of Commons was at this moment
constituted, Ministers could not do anything to aid the
Disamters. The people's Representatives, the people
themselves, are to blame. He had no hesitation in saying
that be cordially supported the resolution that had been put
into his hand. It was this—" That the constitution and
proceedings of the Ecclesiastical Courts are unworthy of
an enlightened age, and incompatible with the due admi-
nistration of justice—hostile to the civil and religious
liberty of the Dissenters; and, therefore, that those tri-
bunals ought to be abolished, or to he confined in their ju-

risdictionto those who approve of that ecclesiastical Po-
licy of which they arc the guardians." He continued by
ssying, it must be evident that this and the preceding

question formed one and the same subject ; out of the first
arose the second, and he could scrircely make an ob-
servation on the ono that would not apply to both. Ile had
that day visited their county gaol ; he had seen the
victim of ecclesiastical persecution. He saw the martyr to
conscientious principle—the man who, whatever wore
now his sufferings, must hold up his head higher than be-
fore, however much and greatly he had been respected.—
( Hear.) It was only by such men that England hail ever
_ .

relieved herself froin any oppresssion.—( Cheers.) The
moment such en honourable individual as Mr. Baines arose
in a country. he changed the aspect of Wails altogether--
( Hear.) His excellent and well-known friend, Jeremy
Bentham, had said " the people never could get relief
from a Government until they make the ruling few a little
uneasy."—( Hear, hear.) When they showed that they
were determined to have their rights, then those disposed
to act unjustly would think it much better to give up a
little than to lose a chance of all. A good leader was a
good thing, and they had an excellent one. Here was
the instance of a man who had given up all the comforts
of his family, and who, for conscience sake, was for ten
weeks confined within the prison walls.—( Hear, hear,
and cries of " Shame.") Was not that sufficient to
arouse their sympathy ? Ought it not to spread
through the whole country ? Ought it not to create
unanimity, energy, and action in the whole Dissenting
body ? When he found the Dissenters exceeded the
number of Churchmen, he said that they ought et
least to show that they were determined not to be plun-
dered in this way. He could only tell them what he him-
self intended to do in June last with reference to the enor-
mous funds of the Established Church. His proposition
with respect to those funds he did not think an unfair one.
He found in May or June last that notwithstanding the
immense income of the Established Church, a proposition
was to be made to the Commons, calling upon them to
vote away two or three millions for the purpose of build-
ing churches for the Establishment._(Hear, hear.) A
mote impudent demand he never knew of, nor did he be.
lieve it possible that such a demand could be made. It
WV to the credit of the Tories—and as he had not many
things to tell to their credit he might as well mention this
—(Laughter)—that when Sir Robert Inglis's motion came
on, the Tories were so much ashamed of it, that they would
not allow him to make a House. But he bad anticipated
the debate, for he had stated, if it came on, he would meet
it with a counter proposition. What he meant to have
proposed was this :—Upon the dissuasion of Sir Robert
Inglis's motion, that instead of the members of the Esta-
blished Church taking Church-rates from the Dissenters,
they (the Dissenters), being half of the population, ought
to come in at once and claim the half of the Church pro-
perty from the Establishment.—( Cheers and laughter.)
Ile meant to say that, by right an& by law, they could do
this, and there would be a difficulty in showing otherwise.
He said that the Dissenters were more than half of the
population—that they were as sixteen million to eleven,
including Dissenters of all kinds; but that, taking
them at one-half, the Dissenters, instead of agreeing to
pay Church-rates, they aught to come in and make their
representatives alter the law, and take the half of the pro-
perty from the Church.—( Cheers, and laughter.) But
when be proposed it he meant to do something further
than that ; he meant to say to the Dissenters, " By your
principles you cannot take one farthing of this fund, I
therefore call upon you to give it to me, and I will reduce
taxes to that amount."—( Cheers.) lle was sure that this
was an honest proposition—he was sure it was a just pro-
position, and, being both honest and just, why should they
not have it ? In the first place, he could tell them they
would not have it until they asked for it, and until they
made a point to have it.—( Haar, hear, hear.) They
must make the voice of the people be heard. They must
let it be known what it was they were determined upon :
that they would not be directed by a Bishop of Exe-
ter, or any other who seemed to think that he was to
rule them as a Lord, and they were to be but his crea-
tures. For, as long as they wore foolishand weak enough
to submit to this, they could get Nothing, and they
might expect nothing. He now came back to the point of
the constitution of the House of Commons. As long as it
continued this impost would be continued; and therefore
those who elected men to vote for Church-rates, deserved
to pay them. Ho was quite satisfied that the imprison-
ment of Mr. Baines, following fast as it did upon that of
John Thorogood, must arouse the public feeling on this
subject. It might load to fill their gaols with Bainesca and
Thorogoods. Did it but do so, they would soon see the
effect of the excitement. lie recommended to them above
all things unanimity in their proceedings. Let there be
that and perseverance, and they must succeed. Any man
who looked at the Ecclesiastical Courts must be convinced
that during many yearn they had inflicted the greatest injury
on the community. Let them look for instance at this
very case of Mr. Bakes, where the original demand was
21. 55., and where, because he did not choose to violate his
conscience, the expense was increased to 1251.—(Hear.)
A bill to that amount was actually run up against him.
It was only necessary to state such a proceeding to excite
the horror of every sound-thinking and conscientious man.
There was, he must say, a hope that the Eecleeiastical Courts
must he put down, he said they must, if a compact that
had been made would be kept, for he had agreed to a Bill,
most unwillingly he admitted, because it gave uncontrolled
power in some respects to the Bishops, that species of
power which he would object to give to men in any situa-
testi. But he assented to it because he was told, that un-
less be agreed to the Bill in that form, it would not be
accepted in another place, a place so sacred that it was
never named by them, but where certain individuals sat at
if behind a curtain, concealed from their view, and yet to
whose wishes they were obliged to accede. He then had
been told that unless ho consented to the proposition he
had before mentioned there was no chance for the removal
of the Ecclesiastical Courts. He did hope, then, to sec
these Courts removed. He had never heard one man in
the House of Commons defend them. It was to the credit
of the House of Commons that none could be found to do
so ; and, therefore, in the next Session he expected to see
them annulled, if not entirely changed.
Mr. EASTHOPB, who was received with loud cheers,
could assure the meeting that he approached this question
with usual anxiety. The first question they had to ask
themselves, with respect to the impost of Church-rates,
and with respect to the imprisonment of Mr. Baines, was
one always asked by men when they saw a fellow-being
enduring hardship—was it justice ? What was the answer
to that question ? The answer to it was to he found (as
it had been already stated by his Honourable Friend) in
the speeches of Lord Spencer, who declared in the House
of Commons that it was an impost which no than
at the present day could defend, and to be regarded as
a great grievance upon conscience. He appealed for
his next answer to the same question to the
emphatic language of Lord John Reuel' ; and no
man could be more explicit than the Noble Lord
upon the point : and last, though not least, he appealed to
Lord Stanley, who repudiated Church-rates as unseemly,
impolitic and unjust.—(Cheers.) Were they, then, to
reason as though it were difficult or needful to prove Church.
rates unjust in Leicester ? Were they to do this when
they saw one known by them all—respected by them all—
most worthy of the respect he received—yet incarcerated
therefore
eht
ri
esf
or conscience—not
e because
cdist
ebnhoooani es
at
sotieeadetnnah:uetef
peosrnuht
coop:
superiority
rhnicouldehn
nn
within their prison walls, because he could not, by reason
impost?—(Cheers.)
lohdte: - -e
rangn.od),
► teoi fs
oughtth_w (o
Could it, then, appear to the men of England that this
haelnl
hp:tsld world,of
their impost
liberty,was iutsht that
tortiitymto'Vewr
a man—an Englishman—should be so burdened, so op-
pressed that, for his conscientious feelings, his person
should be incarcerated, his family exposed to difficulty,
his buiness injured, his happiness blasted—and this be•
cause he would not contribute to a Church in the possession
of vast wealth, from which he conscientiously dissented ;
a Church that could not require this pecuniary support if it
did not persist in the gross mal•admin'stration of its im-
mense property ?—( ear.)H No ; this was one of those
unjust inflictions for which no excuse could be found,
and no palliation devised. It was injustice accompanied
by the most bungling mismanagement. It was in-
justice aggravated by the greatest improvidence that ever
was permitted to exist in a highly civilized community.—
(Cheers.) He was sure that the next question they would
ask themselves, as practical men, was, what was to be
done to remove the gt ievance ? They should not go
about this matter with angry feelings ; but let their exer-
tions be marked as much by mildness as by &enrols, and
regulated equally by good temper as by determined per-
severance, so that the plans and the manner of working
them out should be those best calculated to remove the
abuses.—( Hear, bear.) Ho must now say that, in some

or the observations that had been made by his friend who
opened the business of the meeting, he did not coincide.
He did not think, with his reverend friend, that the mem-
bers of the Established Church generally cherished its
abuses in the manner imputed to them by his friend. They
did not support an abuse because they liked it ; to a great
extent they were ignorant of the abuse. Might it not
be said that the Dissenters had not represented and ex-
posed the abuse as they ought to have done ? The fact
was, that there was not unanimity amongst oven the
Dissenters themselves—( Hear, hear)—and consequently
there was not that determination exhibited by them which
was worthy of the occasion.—( Hear, hear.) They had
been told by Mr. Hume that there was a gross mismanage-
ment of Church property. Call, then, upon the members
of the Established Church for a proper and careful manage-
ment of their property, and prove to them that there could
not even be a pretext for the demand for Church-rates,
and all the oppressions consequent upon their collection,
and then justice will—must, gain for ye,. numerous friends
amongst the members of the Established Church. Some
of the Dissenters were not satisfied with relief for them.
selves, or anything short of the entire abolition of Church.
rates. In this he thought they were wrong. If the Church
resolved to rate its own members, Dissenters should be sin-
tisfied with being themselves exempted. Was it, he asked,
to be borne that in the name of religion such contests were

to be fostered in this country as were predoced by the
annual demand for Church-rates 2—that men, who might
otherwise live in love and happiness together, should
be marked out for conflict with each other as Church-
men and Dissenters ?—( Hear, hear.) Let the grievance
be properly exposed, and not only would the Church
of England men aid them, but every honest and enligh-
tened man of all sects would tender to them his as-
sistance,and all would soon exclaim with them that Church-
rates an impost disgraceful to the age, their enforce-
ment a calamity to the country, a nuisance not longer to
be endured.—( Loud cheers.) The second proposition in
the resolution referred to the abolition of the miscalled
" Christian" Courts. In his opinion they might be more
truly designated courts of persecution; for they were any
thing but Christian," especially if one looked to the
knavery employed in some of them.—(Elsar.) Let thsm,
for instance, observe the case of Sarah Young, who had
been unjustly and illegally imprisoned, and who was now
turned out of her cell, when the public eye was directed
to those wl►o perpetrated the injustice against her, and
when public indignation was prepared to punish them.—
( Hear.)
Mr. STEELE as a member of the Church of England
considered it a matter of principle to express his dissent
from the decti ine of their excellent and respected repre-
sentative, Mr. Easthope, when he controverted the po-
sition laid down by the Rev. Gentleman who opened the
discussion of the evening. He could not but affirm that
the Protestants did actually cherish the abuses, by not re-
sisting them.—(Cheers.) He did not think that the Pro-
testants should throw upon the Dissenters the onus of
uniting among themselves in order to the selection of
some fixed plan of operation, before the Protestants ex-
erted themselves to endeavour to obtain for them the
justice to which they were entitled ; on the very contrary,
it behoved those who were already united as a body,
and witl► the strength derived from that union, to exert
every energy of their nature to dissever from Protest-
antism the disgrace of being accessary to this robbery ;
he said robbery, and robbery of the worst kind;
for what robbery could be more iniquitous than that plun-
der derived from amercing a man for his conscientious reli-
gious opinions, when religion should be nothing else than
an ethereal communion of spirit between a man's own soul
with his God?—(Cheers.) He was a mere private gentle-
man of Ireland, of studious and meditative habits, a mem-
ber of the senate of the University of Cambridge; but, as
it had been his auspicious destiny to take a very active
part in the conflict for the religious liberty of his oppressed
Catholic brethren, he thought it highly appropriate to the
present occasion that he should state to the people of Lei-
cester that the Irish Catholics, during their struggle for
their own religious liberty, no less than four times peti-
tioned the Imperial Legislature for the freedom of con•
science of the English Protestant Dissenters; and it was
by the mighty man who was just now about to address
them on the subject of Mr. Baines's martyrdom that
those petitions were drawn and proposed for adoption.—
( Cheers. )
Rev. C. Buse perfectly concurred in the sentiments
contained in the resolution, both as to the character and
abuses of the ecclesiastical courts. He ►vas glad to learn
from Mr. Hume that the Government intended to take up
tl►is subject. As there were in that assembly many mem-
bers of the Established Church, he would say to them that
he begged of them to observe the signs of the times, to
look to what was taking place there, for they must see that
unle►s the Establishment be quickly reformed, the Church
must and ought to be overwhelmed and destroyed.—
(Cheers.) Though a Dissenter from the Church, he said
that with a searching reform, it might be a great blessing,
while without it, it was—a very great evil at least,—
( Hear and laughter-)
The resolution was then carried unanimously.

The CHAIRMAN had now to announce that the emanci.
pettor of his country, and the friend of every shade and co-
lour of the human race, was about to move the next rem:),

lution.

- O'Coenema., here presented himself amidst enthusi-
astic cheers from all parts of the meeting, and said, the
resolution committed to his care ran thus :—" That this
meeting has seen, with heartfelt regret, Mr. William
Baines, a man was in the private and public walk; of life
has secured the regard and esteem of all who have known
him, torn from his home for his conscientious recusaney in
the matter of Church-rates, and incarcerated in a gaol by
the authority of the Ecclesiastical Court; that, while it
expresses its deep sympathy with him in his manifold pri-
vations, it must at the same time declare its stern condem-
nation of the system of which lie is the victim ; and feeling,
that in his person an indignity has been offered to every
Dissenter in these realms, as well as an outrage perpetrated
against the spirit of the age, it trusts that there will be
made, not only from the town of Leicester, but from every
part of the kingdom, such an appeal to the Parliament and
the Throne, as shall not only secure the immediate libe-
ration of Mr. Baines, but effectually prevent the recurrence
of such disreputableiproccedings." That resolution, he
observed, is a speech in itself, and required no advocacy.—
(Laughter.) He was glad of it, for his advocacy was so
identified with himself, that he became liable to the censure
of the proverb which said that every man who was his own
counsel had a fool for his client.—( Laughter.) The whole
tenor of his life had been identified with the principles of
civil and religious liberty, and when, for the first time, he
that day beheld Mr. Baines within the precincts of the
common gaol, he was delighted to find that the man who
had offered himself a martyr in the cause of freedom of
conscience was unpretending, simple, unsophisticated,
mild, and gentle in his demeanour; who made in his own
case no boast, and who set it off with no exaggeration, but
still one ready, manfully and boldly rather to sacrifice his
life than to yield one atom of the principle for which ho
was contending.—( Cheers.) It was by men of this de-
scription that every battle for British liberty had been won.
It was not the paltry 2s. 6d. that Hampden had been
called upon and refused to pay, that necessarily created
itbwheee the
sufficient civil
deathwar,
to aonfd
foolishlythhctahavatl‘ln°ar banished
ch ' for surely it would have
and wickedly terminated
him from the country for
ever. No—it was not the paltry consideration of money,
it was the mighty principle of British liberty that was in-
volved—it was that which led Hampden to oppose him-
self to the exaction, that made him ready to forfeit his
life, and which life he ultimately did forfeit, in contending
for freedom.—( Cheers.) He thought that Mr. I3aince
in wasg ianc ttihnwg
same
thee
sn
ffs
nag
s;b
u principle,t he was participar-
e trusted they would
have a different and less disastrous consequence, while he
equally contributed to the triumph of the principle
of free-
dom of conscience.—(Cheers.) He himself had been the
advocate of the principle perpetually in the sister-coun-
try ; he had never placed the claims of the Catholics upon
any other ground than this—that conscience ought to be
free ; that it was a crimp to interfere with a man's creed ;
that it was a crime if it were attacked by force or fraud,
or that its profession should bring with it any limitation of
civil rights. That principle had been triumphant in their
emancipation, but at all times they were ready to struggle
for others • and, as it had been truly stated by his friend,
they had four times petitioned in favour of the Protestant
Dissenters of England. The emancipation of the Dis-
senters had immediately followed a petition which he had
the honour of drawing tip, and which was signed by
100,000 persons.—( Loud Cheers.) To hies, then, it war
a matter familiar as household words to find himself the
advocate of liberty of conscience, and without which that
other cannot exist—the voluntary principle for the suste-
nance of religion. If there be net religious feeling enough
to sustain and support the pastor, it is a proof they
do not want hide If they ha'o lint clititigh of reli-
gion to support a' pastor, it shows that he does not teach
them enough of religion to iiadtice them to do so; the evi-
dence that the pastor is not supported it a piled that he is
not wanted. He was for supporting the voluntary prin-
ciple, because it would put an end
,t the doting on, the
power and tyranny of the Ettablisited Chnreh. He spoke
of the ebettetet pfihciple and the principle of freedom of
conscience, which would leave men to Worship their Cod
in the manner And form most suited td satiety the Deiey.
=,-( Hear, hoar.) He objected to the persecution of Mr.
Baines upon other grounds than the infringement of Con-
science, as contrary to common sense and &onetime ho-
nesty. Mr. Baines wit a Dissenter; *hy should he pay
money to the Bstablialied Church ? He did not get value
leoni the clergy OF the Established Church. the clergy
did not pray for hies, *by should he pay them? Nothing
bet In Justine could require of him to pay for thten.—( Hear,
hear.) If one of these who owned a worsted factory in
that town, and when his men came on Saturday night to
be paid, went to a neirehbeer and sail, " Pay these people,
they have been ernpleyeet by rho they b Ve Workhl e±-
coedingly well ; do yob pray Lalighterj—tbe
neighbouts if a find), neredri, might be very angry with
hitia Who made such a demand ; if a merry fellow, he
might laugh at him ; and if a malicious individual, ke
might say, " Why, my Heaten is hilt it itehireilsiloti of
lunacy taken Ott against my neighbour "--( Laughter.)
If, then, the thing Were unjust sit days its the week, did it
become matt rational or prCOr because it it *flied to
the Sunday ? the pariolii kaki, Hero is my rectory on
a Sunday ; I work in it, and de you, Mr. Bainee, pay me."
The reply of Mr. Daises was obvious have, a little
factory of my own, and do yen. cult oh tlitise for smith you
work, but it is diet:onest and knavish of you to ask for pay-
ment from me, who get no value from you."—( Hear.)
Suppose a man employed A tailor, *by the:elle' thothtir
pay for him ? He did not see more sense in paying
another man's tailor than in paying another Man's parson.
Supposing
h he were sick, and sent for a physician, should
Thecall upon his poor neighbour to pay for his physician ?
The neighbour might say, " Pay him who has cured
you." And he did not see why there should be a differ-
ence made between him
who cured the body and he who
cured the soul. Both should be paid by those only who
wanted them, Whoever wanted the doctor, he said, let
that man pay him. That was the principle of common
sense and common honesty.—( Hear, hear, hear,) He
knew one thing that was said on this subject, that if
there was not compulsory would payment, there WO . be no
establishment for the education of the poor. Let eo
man tell him that, for if he did so, he would imniccli-
etely point to the country from which he came. He said
that it was not necessary that a single shilling should I

be enforced for the payment of clergy.--( Hear.) His
Hen. Friend had told him of a particular period, when the
ecclesiastical property was distributed in a manner dif-
ferent from the present. At that time the funds were
allocated to several purposes, one for the support of the
poor, another for the maintenance of the church, and the
remaining portion for the clergymen. Up to the period
of the Reformation, it could not be found that a person was
imprisoned for not contributing to the support of the
clergy. It was a modern invention, and it was not a good
one. It was manifest that it was not in the spirit of the
Church to be thus connected with the State, and to have
the arm of the law to enforce those payments. Ile came
back to Ireland, and he showed that the priests of the
people were well supported without any compulsory ex-
action. lie was not there to state how the population of
his country had been reduced to starvation and beggary.
There were other opportunities for discussing that sub-
ject, and he was nothing loth to avail himself of them. It
was a poor country, but 'id the people want taxation, or
law, or imprisonment to support their hierarchy ? No. They
supported four Archbishops, twenty.tbree B'shops, one
thousand Deans and dignitaries, three thousand vicars and
cut aces in all the necessary comforts of life. This they did,
though the law gave them no power of imprisonment,
and they had no Bainacs in gaol for not supporting them.
—( Cheers.) The example given by Ireland ought to be
followed by England. Ile begged of them not to disdain
the country; they might not have lauded it, but it had
stood by them in their moments of difficulty.--( Hear.)
There was a sentiment attributed to Prince Albert, which
he trusted had been uttered by him. It was, that an Eng-
lishman could do that which any other man on the face of
the earth had done. Now, be said to them to mark him—
he said to the Protestant Dissenters of England that they
had no Church-rates in Ireland ; and he, an humble indi-
vidual as he was, had taken part in their abolition. He said
to them, that which others were able to do they were able
to do. Let them, then, have a long pull, a strong pull,
and a pull altogether. Let Englishmen have the advantage
which Ireland had—let them take off all taxes and payments
towards the wealthy Established Church to which they
conscientiously objected—let them tell members of the
Established Church to manage their own funds more thrif-
tily, so as to enable them to pay their Church-rates them-
selves.—( Hoar.) He was so strong an advocate for the vo-
luntary principle, that it the wealth of the Church were to be
divided amongst Dissenters, nothing would induce him to
consent that the Church to which he belonged should be en-
dowed with any portion of wealth by the State. Rather
would he see the renewal of the penal code than the eccle-
siastical revenues handed over to his Church. The way to
make pastors indifferent was to make them rich. It was
creating bad workmen to pay them too highly. When
they made a clergyman too rich, they made him love the
mammon of this world, and this caused him to forget his
duty to his God. The period of society was come when
the great principle ought to be adopted, that religion was
too sound a thing to be mixed up with the paltry politics
of this world. They saw what effect the connection had
now. They saw clergymen engaged in the strife of
politics. In his opinion, the only time when a clergyman
was justified in becoming a politician was, when persecu-
tion came home to his fl telt. But what did they see in
this country ?—( Hear, hear.) He would pronounce no
calumny against them, for he knew there were many ex-
cellent men amongst them ; but then, how many clergy-
men did they see in the enjoyment of the State reveeues
and in the possession of wealth and every luxury, busily
engaged in attending Conservative dinners, and calling
for their songs of a " jolly full bottle"--( Laughter)
—joining in political toasts applauding persecuting
sentiments, and then retiring to their homes to become the
ardent canvassers, and the intimidators of voters —( Hear,
hear.) How, he asked, could Englishmen consent to these
things—how submit to see clergymen so conduct them-
selves, instead of leading their flocks to " pleasant waters,"
and then, as in Ireland, the gratitude of their flocks would
suffice for all their wants. He was glad of this meeting,
he was delighted at the opportunity it afforded to him by
Mr. Baines for discussing this question. They had heard
it particularly well discussed by the opening speech of that
night, which was one that smacked well of independence
—(
Hear, hear)—and if there were some things too bitter
and too sarcastic in it, let them blame themselves who
had put Mr. Brines into prison.--( Cheers.) Could not,
he asked, the persons who laid on this rate go about
amongst themselves, ani say, " Here is a conscientious
man--here is a just man in all the relations of life
—a
respected neighbour—a man incapable of feigning,
and is it right to imprison this men because he thinks it
hiseluty to his God not to contribute to error."—( Cheers.)
And let hint now ask, could there be liberty of con-
science if a man were forced to pay for-the support
of a religion that he believed to be erroneous?—( [leer,
hear.) This was the case of every man who did not be-
long to the Establishment. It would be the case of those
very men who now persecuted if an Act of Parliament
were to change the religion from that which was now pro-
fessed by the members of the Church.—( Hear.) lie did
not say that Christians were not bound to the sustentation
voluntarily of the ehurcb of ethers. Let it be voluntary,
and he raid they ought to contribute. He said that when
men differed in their worship from his own, he ought to
afford them the means of k iciping- them from the incle-
mency of the season ; he ought to afford to them that as-
sistance, and then say to them, " Commune with our
God as you please."--( Cheers.) He did not quote him-
self; but he might say, with his humble means, a Pro-
testant Dissenter had never applied to him for the means to
cover his church with a roof that he had ever refused his
mite, or ever would.—(Cheers.) Bat such a case did
not apply to the plunder collected by the State to be handed
over to the Church. He trusted they would pardon his zeal
in denouncing such a system. What rancour did it not
produce amongst fellow Christians? What hatred did it
not stir up between man and man ? What animosities did
it not engender amongst these who professed to worship
the God of love and of charity ?—(Cheers.) Every foul
and unchristian feeling was gathered together by this vio-
lation of the first principles of Christianity.—( Hear, hear.)
All, all arose from the contemptible squabble about. pro-
perty. It was a Church-rate that was sought, it was
money, money, money, that the quarrel was for.—
(Cheers.) He remembered rcadutg somewhere in Ireland
of a gentleman who was complainieg of. the rancour and
animosity which was shown with respect to the collection
of money for the Church, and he accounted for it by a
ditty which ran some way in this manner :
" A little old woman and I fell out,
And what do you think it was all about?
She had money, and I had none,
And that was the way the quarrel begun."
—( Laughter.) Where there was no money the Church
had no quarrel. In Germany it often happened that dif-
ferent forms of religious worship were carried on in the
same Church. But, then, in Germany there was no
question about money. In America the Dissenters lived
in harmony with the members of the Anglican Church ;
hut the latter there could den:and no rates from them.
It was money that made the quarrel--it was the 21. es.
to be extorted from Baines—(Cheers)—it was the
source of • these satanic persecutions—it was what made
religion disregarded by scoffers and infidels.--( Hear,
hear, hear.) Let it not, however, be supposed, when
he spoke of the voluntary principle that ho preached at all
the doctrine of indifferentism, God forbid! for his thorough
csnviction was that nothing was of such awful importance
as the right and true religion. There was nothing 011 this
s'de of the grave that he thought a man should be so anxi-
ous, so sincere, and so cautious in adopting, as the proper
form of religion ; but the liberty that he claimed for him-
self for worshipping the God who would judge him, he
equally asserted fur other Christians. They were the ser-
vants of another master, and be would not dare to judge
them.—( Hear, hear.) He heard that these who had
formed the Church-rate had obtained a private Act of Par-
liament, by which they might overrule the decision of a
vestry. They must have thought themselves exceedingly
dextrous. It might be fancied their saying, that they bad
the Dissenters now, and that if they refused the rate there
was the mandamus to the Queen's Bench ; and as they
were going to their prayers it might be supposed how they
chuckled over the seizure of Mr. Baines.—(Cheers.)
And yet it would in them have been more prudent
and more wise to have acted otherwise, they
would have acted more rationally if they bad
been more moderate. Is would have been better for
them to have done so, than to have aroused the spirit
that now animated the people of Leicester. That
spirit, he trusted, would spread front the Land's-end to
the most northern point of Scotland. And he could say
to them, that the moment they raised the shout here,
though his countrymen were no longer engaged in the fray,
they should have the friendly assistance of Ireland.—
(Cheers.) He made no vain beast. They should be
aided by petitions ; petition should come to them after
petition. They had long heard the cry of " justice for
Ireland"they, °tight now, too, to cry out c• justice for
England"—( Cheers.) Why, he asked, ought not they to
get rid of Church-rates in Vngleed They bad rid them-
selves of Church-rates in Ireland, and were not English-
men dI gidod ei Irishmen any day ?—(Cheers and
laughter.) And yet, if he were not gsilty of vanity that
atittitinted
,alMest to piferility, he Mould say that, in one
respect, Engtishnieii lied nei altar ci themtndres as good as
Irishmen. Henry the Eighth had burned at the same stake
Catholics and Protestants—no, he was wrong in that re-
spect, he had alioited the Catholics and Protestants a
Rake each. Edward the sixth had sent to the same
stake those Who bad differed from his Ministers and in-
structors. Mary had burned Protestants, Elisabeth had
a long reign of revenge upon the Catholics ; but this also
ought to be remembered, that by her no less than three
Unitefiahe iberfi burfied tit the same fire in London.
How little did they ktiotte of what erae the conduct
of Ireland during that period. Why should he not tell it
to them ii Why ought they not to be atteched as much as
possible to each other by their national viruses mid why
shoiild there chit lib a getietbue struggle to see which had
acted most humanely, most ehtistiOnAiite, most tcady, to
exhibit charity in every relation of life—to worship tied
in the true spirit of Christians—with forbearance towards
ene another.—(Hear. ) Let it not be supposed that he
Meant id td; tltnt tith4 wti§ mote, charitable or a more
benevolent country than England. If tie did, its Multi-
tudinous charities would give the lie direct to the assertiOn,
but shirt lie bpd , to say of Ireland ; three times since the
iieforthation had the Catholics bten in power there, and
they had peter perecciited their fellow Christians. Ile
had the .doCiimehts ttd.probe this. It Carrie from a Pro.
testant historian ; and it was ILO lit deeertbed the feign
of Queen Mary, in Ireland. He says : " The restotatien
of the old religion was effected without violence. No
OciteeMitit of this Protestants was attempted, and several
of the English, who fled front the ferrous zeal of
Mary's inquisitors, found a safe retreat amongst the
Cletholies of freland."—(Hear. ) When, be said, they
recollected how much the English press was then engaged
in exciting the hateful spirit of bigotry in England against
the Roman Catholics, he asked them if it was not
fair in him thus to bring forward Protestant testimony
in favour of his countryinen?—(Cheers.) Tho writer
next observed, " it is but justice to this maligned body to
add, that on the three occasions of their obtaining the upper
hand they never injured a single person in life or limb
for professing a religion different from their ovrn.'
(Hear.) Anybody who chose would find the passage he
quoted in "Taylor's History of the Civil Wars in Ireland."
It was in the second volume, page 169. At the period
to which the historian referred, the trade of Ireland cen-
terediu Bristol, and due Corporation of Dubliu, being C4l-

tholic, opened seventy-four houses for their Bristol cor-
respondents, fed the in, clothed thsre, took care of them,
and at the end of that period sent them home in safety.—
(Hear.) He bad been oft n tau t d by others, who said
that he vas more liberal than Catholics generally
were, or than their religion peimitted them to be. His
answer was, he could not afford to be more liberal than his
religion allowed. As a Catholic he claimed religious
liberty for all, and was ready to extend it to all. The
man who persecuted others for their religious opinions,
proved his own insincerity. He showed that he was
opposed to his own belief, when he took up the musket
or resorted to- -the penalties of the law to uphold
it.—( Hear.) How it delighted him that they had sent Mr.
Baines to prison-11w pleasant it was_ to him to meet
Englishmen as brothers in this spirit—hoW pleasant it was
to him, that he was thus called upon to scatter to the-winds
the calumnies that bad been put forth against those of his
erced.—( Hear, hear.) As to the great organs of the
Conservatives, they were filled, page upon page, and day
after day, in villa) ing and 'casting every dishonour upon
the clergy and the people of Ireland—in denouncing the
first as " surpliced ruffians," for such was the term applied
to their clergy ; while the others were branded as " a
squalid mob of murderers."—( Hear, hear.) Was it wise
—was it right—that, as Christians, this warfare should be
carried on ?—that such terms should be applied to those
who had ever been so useful to England? That the right
arm that bad never failed her in the day of her reddest
battles should be palsied by a spirit of calumny, and that
faction should claim as an clement of its power the princi-
ple of hatred and animosity against Ireland.—( Loud
cheers ) He felt that he had wandered, but he could not
help it. He was there upon the occasion of the assertion
of the great principle of freedom of conscience. He was
there to a,sert that the strife was in every Vey
justifithle.—(Loud cheers.) Ile called, then, upon them
to assi .t themselves. If they faltered—if they were
afraid, the Government could not assist them.—( Hear.)
The Government was pressed upon as much as they were.
Thcrc was only one thing in which lie differed from the
first speaker. Ile must be allowed to say that he thought
that gentleman had cast too much blame upon the Go-
vernment. They were the Government, but they had not
power. Their enemies and the enemies of the Dissenters
were the same. He did not mean to say, that if the Go-
vernment had the power they would do alt that they ought.
He believed that they would not. But then it would be
wrong in the Dissenters, because the Government did not
give them the support they required, to place themselves
in the power of their enemies. Paddy, he could tell them,
was more shrewd than that, for when he was asked, why he
voted fur the Whigs, when he knew the Whigs did no go
far enough for him ; and that he was aware that they would
not assist him in obtaining his privileges? Paddy said he
knew that was very true, but still he voted for them on
principle—on the same principle that he acted when a pane
of glass was broken in his cabin window, and he could get
no glazier to mend it—he then slipped an old hat into it, not,
said Paddy, to let in the light, but to keep out the eel&
—( Laughter. ) It was upon the same principle he voted
for the Ministerial candidate—not so much to keep in the
Ministry as to keep out the Tories.—(Laughter and
cheers.) That, too, was his principle of action; because,
when these two things were before him—the bad and
worse—he always preferred the bad to the worse.—
( Laughter.) When, too, he had to select between the
smallest good and the very bad, his choice would be to
take the smallest good, and to fight off the very bad, as
long as he could.—(Cheers.) He called, then, upon the
Dissenters to rally together. He said to them, let no man
apologize to him for having brought him there. lie klt
it to be a great compliment to have been invited. When,
then, ho spoke to them in the language of advice, let them
not suppose that he meant anything in the way of taunt
or reproach, He, said, however, it would be wrong iii
them to have called that meeting—it would be wrong in
them to permit Mr. Baines to be in gaol; for he must
have hopes--all this would- go wrong if they did not
immediately agitate, agitate, agitate.—(Cheers.) Let
them get up the steam everysvhete.—(Cheers.) Ireland
would reply to them. It would act as a little backing
engine.—(Cheers.) Let no man tell him that he could
not do much, when there was no man in that meeting
more insignificant than himself. Ile had, from the
mere son of a private gentleman—successful, to be
sure, in his profession—risen to:the degree of influence that
he could not but be conscious ho possessed ; and this, not
by talent, but by his persevering exertions—by his never
sleeping over a grievance.—(Cheers.) He said, for in-
stance, to their first speaker, that he had incurred a great
obligation to his kind, his class, and his creed; that he
was bound not to content himself with empty boasting—
not to be satisfie d with a report of his speech in the
newspapers, which might be talked of for a week; but
be was bound to act—act—act.—(Loud cheers.) Let
them, he said, agitate in every town, and, if possible, in
every county. Scotland would assist them—keland was
at their service whenever they niched.—(Cheers.) Let,
he said, Mr. Baines be the last man in England impri
zoned for Church-rates. Let the name of Mr. Baines be
engraven on the town-ball, with this inscription, " Here
is the lest sictim of religious persecution."—(Cheers.)
Let them, he said, show themselves worthy of being the
countrymen of Mr. Baines.—( Hear.) They had a
glorious cause to contend for—they had a noble victim to
persecution to vindicate—they had the principle of re-
lesious feeling to uphold—they who had these incite-
mentsi' to energy had trodden down the iron lords of former
days—let them not shrink before the silken lords and the
petticoat bishops of the present day.—(Cheers.)
The Rsv. Mr. Mee !SELL, in seconding the resolution,
observed that he had only to urge them to fellow out the
advice that had been given to them by the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman who bad thus addressed them. The
Dissenters, he said, never would vote for any man who did
not support the equality of civil rights, without religious
distinction. It had, he heard, been said that such a reso-
lution would embarrass the Ministry ; but he might reply,
that which was good for the goose was good for the gander,
and that the Ministry had too long embarrassed the Dis-
senters. It was his opinion that if the Tories were to come
into power, an united people would turn them out, and sink
them lower than they had been before.
The resolution passed unanimously.
The Rev. GEORGE LEGo moved the adoption of the fol-
lowing petition :
The humble Petition of the undersigned inhabitants of
Leicester,

" Showeth,—Tbat your Petitioners consider the levying of
Church-ra'es in England to be a grievous wrong inflicted
upon a large portion of her Majesty's subjects; that they lay
heavy and unequal burdens on those who, at their own expense,
provide for the maintenance of places of worship, and for that
religious instruction which their own sincere and honest con-
victions approve ; and that their exaction invades the lights of
conscience and the freedom of religious opinion.
That your petitioners regard the Ecclesiastical Courts by
which that impost in several instances has been recently en-
forced, as incom ?atible with the due administration of justice,
and hostile to the civil and religious liberties of all who dissent
from the Church as established by law.
" That your petitioners have been deeply grieved and indig-
nant at the incarceration of one of her Majesty's best and most
loyal subjects, Mr. William Baines of this town, for his con-
scientious refusal to pay a Church-rate, by a writ obtained by
the Ecclesiastical Court.
"That your petitioners, therefore, earnestly pray your Ho-
nourable House immediately to adopt such measures as its wis-
dom may dictate, for the entire extinction of Church-rates ; for
the abolition of Ecclesiastical Courts, or the resttaint of their
jurisdiction to the members of the Church, or such matters as
concern not the conscience; and for the immediate liberation of
Mr. Baines, beleving that such measures will put an end to
those bitter strifes and feuds that because of these things agi-
tate and distress her Majesty's subjects, and greatly conduce to
the strength of the nation and the prosperity of religion."
( Loud cheers followed the reading of the petition.) He
wished, he said, that the spirit that actuated the meeting
could find its way into St. Stephen's. Ho knew that it
would be borne there by their excellent representatives, and
by his own countryman (Mr. flume), at whose elections
for Aberdeen lie had shouted when a boy ; and by that
individual whose eloquence still echoed in their cars, and
would long live in their hearts.—( Cheers.) Many there
were who said to him that the Church was in danger, and
his reply to them was, that it was in danger, not from the
Dissenters, but from Churchmen themselves.—( Hear.)
Mr. IN,ltsix, in seconding the resolution, observed that
Mr. Jolly and Mr. Berridge, who cau,ed that delightful
meeting, were entitled to their gratitude.—(Laughter.)
No town had more reason to be proud of its representa-
tives than Leicester. Si said Mr. O'Connell, and so said
he.—( Hear, and cheers.)
It was moved and carried unanimously, " That the peti-
tion be adopted, signed, and presented to the House of
Lords by Lord Bro:igham, and to the House of Commons
by J. Easthope, Esq,, and W. Ellis, Esq., Members for
the borough,"
The Rev. Mr ML'BSELL proposed a vote of thanks to
Mr. Easthope, Mr. Ellis, Mr. O'Connell, and Mr. Hume.
Alderman aims seconded the resolution, which passed
unanimously.
Mr. Easthope, Mr. Wynn Ellis, Mr. O'Connell, and
Mr. flume severally returned thanks.
Thanks were then proposed to the Chairman, which
were passed by acclamation, after which the meeting se-
parated.

THE WEATHER.

ROYAL GALLERY OF SCIENCE, ADELAIDE-

STREET.

NOON, JAN. 25.
Bdrometer 3O 354 In.
Thermometer ; 55 Deg.
Highest 61.2
Lowest
Wind N. N. W.—Freezing Point 32 Deg.

We beg the attention of our readers to two com-
munications inserted in this day's paper, on the subject of
capital punishments. The one which refers to the past
iiondnct and judicial character of Lord Meadowbank, the
Judge who gerttcneed M'Rae to a public execution, is par-
t;cularly descrvnig, of consideration. We do most ear-
nestly entreat the attention of the Marquis of Normanby
to the facts it embodies; and tic do feel assured that if the
'Noble Marquis only bestows his ealca consideration on those
facts, be will not hesitate a moment in commuting the
sentence of death passed on the miserable M'Rae, even
had no petitions been presented for a commutation of that
sentence. —3fornitt9 Adrerliser.
- -

INLAND BONDING WAREIIOUSES.—A public
meeting of the merchants, bankers, manufacturers, ar.d
traders of this borough, convened in pursuance of a requ'-
sition presented to the mayor, boroughreeve, and consta-
bles, and churchwardens of Manchester, was held in the
Town-hall, on Thursday morning last, "to consider what
further measures should be adopted to obtain the privilege
of bonding goods in Manchester." The meeting was nu-
merously attended. William Neild, Esq., the Mayor, in
the chair. Resolutions to promote the object of the meet-
ing were unanimously agreed to.—Manchester Guardian.

EXTRAORDINARY NUMBER OF SUDDEN
DEATils.—Out of ten inquests held by Mr. Baker, on Sa-
turday last, there were seven cases of sudden death.

At the recent anniversary meeting of the Literary
and Philosophical Society of Tynemouth, Miff; Harriet
Martineau, %Nho is now located lc, that pleasant village, was
elected an honorary member of that institution,—Sunder-
land gera,ld.

EVENING 14M1TION.

FRANCE.

CHAMBER OF DEPUTIES.
CONTINUATION OF THURSDAY'S DEBATE.
M. de Lamartine said he ascendcd.the tribune with regret, tieing

about to combat the opinions, not only of friends, but of the majo-
rity, or scenting majority, of that Chamber. He was consoled,
however, by the recollection that majorities were often mistaken.
Ile listened with reverence to military men who treated the subject,
but he denied it to be a purely mil taryquestien:—it was also a po-
litical one. It is pretendet (said M. Lamartine) that, by itS
graphical position, Paris is not sufficiently covered, and this void it
is wished should be filled up. For my own part, I do not ask

where is the strtngth of Paris ?—but where lies the strength of
France ? I find the secret of that strength in a remark which drop-
pal from the mouth of Louis XIV., while struggling with reverses.
_ _

Go, said he, to Marshal Villars, go and give battle, and if ytm ,are-
conquered, I will run through my capital, your letter in My hand,

I will draw together my people ,and we will go and bury ourselves ;,-;
beneath the ruins of the monarchy.—(Sensation.) The eharacteris is .
of a French soldier is not to fight behind walls, but to meet the
enemy in the open field ; all our generals will tell you that the
French soldier is the first soldier in the world when advancing. An
soldiers fight well. I appeal to your generals whether, when
they have gone over in a field of battle the lines of dead, they have
not found the Russians, the Prussians, and the English dead in their
places, and wounded in front like cur own; but what makes the
superiority of the French soldier? It is his enthusiasm. The Com-

trittce has spoken of war as it was carried on two hundred year.

ago ; but new systems, new instruments of war have been invented.
Frederic the Great, elevated tactics, active and scientific mahceuvres
in the field, above the passive force of &messes ; and he was right,

for the genius of war is there, and not in walls. Napoleon carried
this further, by the immense masses which he moved. Armies now
concentrate the whole force and life of a nat•on ; when these ore
conquered, nothing remains behind for walls to protect and save.

With such masses defi at has no morrow. In ware of this na-

ure, a march is made a., far as Moscow, then a retreat to
Lcipsic, then to Watvrloo, and at lcagth St. Helena is reached,

which has just restored to us illustrious ashes, and at the same
time read us some terrible lessons. The authority of Vauban Wai
brought forward. Do you know In what manner he justified the
idea of fortifying Paris? Vauban said that the great population
such a capital as Paris (then 200,000), together with all who would
crowd thither, might create disorder and uneasiness, but when he-
oonsidered the pacific sweetness of the Parisians, he had no fears
of them. He said that in England the turbulence of the popula-
tion would not permit the thought of such a means of defence, al
it would cause uneasiness. 1 his is what he said in his time, and
then he proposed a project which was at the same time the niost

gigantic and the most ineredible in the world. He wished that In

case of; invasion the King should issue an ordonnance which should
force all the inhabitants within a circuit of sixty leagues to come
and shut themselves up in Paris, taking care at the same time to . •
tiring provisions with them sufficient for twelve months' con-
sumption for each person. Ile then added that in this caie it
would be also necessary to bring into Paris numerous flocks
of sheep, without thinking at all of where they were to is .••
kept, or where nourishment was to be found to support them. It as
was also necessary, said he, to store up in Paris a very large quan-
tity of barley and hops, for the people of Paris were very fond of
beer.—(Laughter). These, Gentlemen, are what Vauban called his
reveries, and really 1 think the name was well chosen. But a more
serious and a more important opinion has been adduced in support
of the measure —that of Napoleon. Napoleon in the height of his
glory—Napoleon holding the world in his hand, and having France
beneath his feet—Napoleon on the victorious field of battle, thought
not of moving a stone towards fortifying Paris. At what epoch,
then, did the Emperor speak of the fortification of Paris? You
know that Napoleon at St. Helena was speaking to the party which
he thought he had left in France. He explained his acts, and
accused himself wi.h his errors. If you would also eon' •
stilt another great man, turn to Hannibal. See that general
in his old age endeavouring to explain his ill.fortnne. He dis-
cussed whatever lie had done, he proved to admiration that, if he
had pussued such and such a line of conduct, he should have crushed
his mortal enemy, Rome. The Hon. Member who spoke last af;
firms that the events of 1814 and 1815 prove the truth of his 031'
tem ; I have the sad advantage of going back a few years farther
than he, and I shall invoke no other authority. I well remember,
and you all remember with me, that under all these great circuit'.
stances there was not a moment when the Emperor Napoleon had
to regret not having fortified Paris. When at Fontainebleau, with
43,000 men, he learnt the capitulation of Paris, do you believe that •
fortifications would at that time have prevented that capitulation f
Do you remember the lassitude and the oppression of the countrf•
do you remember the decheance pronounced by the Senate, and n
the word of abdication uttered from the mouths of his most devoted
friends, from the mouth of Ney, le brave des braves? The fall of
Napoleon was then more a question of policy than a military quo`'
tion. From Moscow to Paris, from 1814 to 18111, Napoleon had time
to fortify Paris, but he did not attempt it. There has been of late .
years a great propensity to falsify history. Napoleon, great and mont'
mental as he was, was not the beacon of independence and liberlf•
Paris, you admit, cannot hold out above 40 days. Is this time
enough to recompose and get together a fresh army ? Will yore
shut up an army in Paris ? The Emperor has told you that an
army, shut up in fortifications, is lost as an army. Do you wish
merely to protect the Government ? Shut up a King in the Tuile•
ries, in the midst of a million and a half of famishing and excited
Parisians, and what must be the consequence ? And on the other
hand, if the King quits Paris it is abandoned, and both he and it •
are lost. We shut up the nationality of France and the Govern' -
mint in Paris. Is this, in the event of sedition, for the purpose
of giving effectual support to the Government? The Honourable.
Reporter has not admitted this hypothesis. It isnot French ; such
a Government could not exist. There is here a mystery, which s
cannot solve. Some are certainly duped, perhaps all parties arc
duped. What is certain is that there is a concert of interests,
and passions, and concealed views for the purpose of mutual •
deception. There is here an unhappy association, a hiller
idea of despotism, with sonic sinister foresight of revolution. ,
I do not know which is the successful duper, but I I,:n°W
that my country is deceived. Let us be upon our guard.--"
[Here M. de Lamartine said that he had some ebiervations of
another order to make, but that the hour was so advanced, that it
was his duty to conclude. There was, however, so general aOf
for him to proceed that he did so.] I thank the Chamber for
consenting to hear me for a short time longer, for I have a few
words to address to the authors of this bill, and to the revivers of it,
who have assumed a responsibility the effects of which they would
feel if the country possessed those institutions which are alone tba
safeguard of a nation against ministerial abuses.—(Sensation.)
M. de Remusat—lmpeach us.
M. de Lamartme--1 say that those who assumed the Initiative
of such a measure without a vote of the Chambers--`without
urgency—without necessity—inasmuch as the works could not be
completed under three years—l say that the Chambers and the
country would have visited the authors of this mad project with
terrible impeachment, if the country had sufficient faith in the
strength of its institutions.
Some voices here exclaimed, " What prevents you from bring-
ing forward the Impeachment yourself ?"
M. de Lamartine—You say impeach us, but yon know well
that the hour of impeachment Is passed. The present Ministry, r
which I am deeply attached, by presenting your Bill, covered Pl' r
with a Bill of indemnity.—(Disapprobation at the Left.) I ol'ke,
this observation for my country. I wish it to understand the.
where there is no respect for the Parliamentary forms of a countrf,"
there is no respect for liberty. Who are the men who support this.
project out of the Chamber? They arc the most 1491°1
organs of ideas of perturbation ; they call themselves the trite.
of liberty, and they clap their hands at the idea of thi!l
, monument of tyranny which you propose to raise round Par's
•"'
have said this monument of tyranny. They know very
that it is not your tyranny that I mean, but their own. Thej:
are delighted at seeing prepared for them those arms, the use
which you know. Great measures and deplorable revolutioniShel'''
had for origin less sinister measures, less formidable preparationS''
But these lessons are of old date, and arc forgotten. Nothing !:
talked of but war, the glory of war, the necessity of war, the fuller,.
ceremonies of war. I object to the Bill as false in policy and lain
tics, and injurious to humanity. I object to it also as injurious
the dignity of my country. I say false in tactics, for Paris ought
not to be isolated from France. It is false in policy, for it is derti..,
ger ous to sacrifice all France to its capital. It is injurious 19,
liberty, for in all free nations nothing of this kind is permitted.
is injurious to humanity, for it tends to make us retrograde to those
barbarous times when the population who took no part in Weer,
women, children, and old men, were not on that account exPotd,
to its disasters. The project, in short, offers no guarantee for 'le
to ss
tional honour and internal security. Nobody is deceived :
belief that a " place de guerre" can be made a city containing S
1,5E0,000 inhabitants.
The Chamber adjourned.
staviNG OF FRIDAY.'
M. de Salvandy, one of the Vice-Presidents, took the Chair 41
one o'clock, and the debate upon the Paris Fortification Bill INat,
resumed.
Carnot requested permission to say a few words in explsn''.
lion of what had been related by M. Golberry at the f0r°,7,,L',1
sitting as to the opinion given by his illustrious ancestor, Caren s;
when consulted by the Emperor Napoleon, relative to the fortifiee',,,,,
Cons of Paris ; he was represented to have said that they woulil Ora?
200,000,000, and require three years for their completion,
that, when finished, an army of 60,000 men could take POOL
twenty-four hours. That anecdote was told for the first time
(lie believed) Sir Walter Scott, by no means a good historian'''. .s 4
(Laughter)—and it was his duty to rectify the false conclusion:
drawn from the general opinion expressed by Carnot ; the fact WI
that he had not much confidence in the project proposed at that
period for fortifying Paris, but he never objected to a proper 1115-
of fortification for Paris, he merely expressed his fears that atter'?
lion to fortresses alone might create a neglect of general means e
defence, thereby render Paris the great centre of attack, and expose
other and important parts of France to the chances of war. 4
M: Moxtea on SIZERAIN addressed the Chamber in favour ',.,?1
the project of law as amended by the Committee, content°l a,
that a proper line of fortifications round Paris was indispeneelYartr,",
•
necessary.
Punts (de l'Arrige) read a written speech against the Pram t
ject of law, but spoke in so low a tone that but few of hie .0
aervationa were audible in the reporter's gallery.
Marshal Sow.; President of the Council, next spoke in t, ,•
port of the project of law. For some time after the revoltitle:, ,
of July, the political position of the country was precariol
there were not only rumours of war, but war itself WAS brn.
means improbable. It was, therefore, the duty of the Govern'
ment, to adopt measures for the defence of the country, and '
peeially to protect Paris from another coup de main.
[Left Speaking.]

nertregeteserw•remorme
LLO YD'S SHIPPING.—(THIS DA
LONDON, JAN. 25.—1 t commenced blowing very fresh
Saturday at about 9 p.m. from the northward, and contingte''oo
greater part of the night, vi hen it veered to the northward str.;;,*
westward with light rain, but cleared up early yesterday rueo:`
ing, with every appearance of a fine day, until 12 at noon, when
dark heavy mass of clouds came hurrying from the northworr
and suddenly broke with terrific violence into a heavy squall
suddenly°,
wind and snow, Khich lasted ten minutes, when it as suddenly
cleared up, and the remainder of the day was fine, with a 0,4;
frost, until about 4 30 when it commenced blowing Ye';i
fresh, with heavy squalls, from the northward, and continue,.
with occasional lulls until near midnight, when it moderatuu„
Wind this day at noon, light westerly breeze and fine crust'
weather.
DEAL, JAN. 23. —Wind N. W. , moderate, 24, N. N.
fresh breeze. —Arrived the Florence, Davis, Madeira; William
de Lannog, Pitt, Gambia. Sailed the outward bound.
GUERNSEY, JAN. 22.—Sevcral casks of butter have CO.
on shore during the last day or too.
BRISTOL, JAN. 22.—Arrived the Maria Jane, Kelly, •r°lll
Prince Edward's Island.
MILFORD, JAN. 22.—The Hawk, Harris, got in contact
with the Chester, 20th inst., in the Haven, and lost bowsPr'''
Szc., and the los suet stanchions, bulwarks, /cc.
CLYDE, JAN. 22.—Arrived the Ilecturina, Demerara;
Gipsey, Gowan, Newfoundland. Sailed the Matthew 1041
Smith, Barbadoes.
WATERFORD, JAN. 21. Arrived the Eliza, Bellord, o°lll
Taganreg.
CORK, JAN. 22.—Arrived the Mary Brock, Routletlge' ;
Honduras.
LivEareor., JAN. 23.—Wind N. W. 24, W., fresl3.---,, ,
Arrived the Colombus, Greene, from Pernambuco—railedtPri
24th ult. ; Lady Leitrim, Clements, Cayenne, his he'll,
shore on Dover Point ; John Francis, Demerara;
Cole, Honduras ; Siddens, Cobb, New York ; Jane Aug''a,h";
St. John's, New Brunswick ; Hero, Wickham, Fayal ;
Campbell, White, Bombay—sailed Bth October, and St-
lens 17th ult. ; Hereford, Calcutta ' • Cheshire, Pernaenbau?v,
Phillips, Stott, Arica—sailed 7th October; DanielGro:
arrc"'
Minty, Valparaiso—sailed 17th October ; Aurora,
New Orleans ; Timoleon, ditto : Canton, Quebec.
PLYMOUTH. JAN. 23 .—W ind N. W.—Sailed the- Alafiltif
Cilbert, for Sydney, New South Wales.
tesi;
FALMOUTH, JAN. 22.—Wind W. to S.W., fresh bree
23, N. to W., ditto.—Arrived the Lapwing packet, Iron: .Rtro
Janeiro—sailed 26th November; Mercury, Maxtor', C 44,
America and Cape of Good Hope ; Trewartha, Beelancis
Sailed the MQiikol, ITEwen, for Antwerp. •