The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-06 00:00:00

EVENING, MARCH 6, 1849.

lo:her measures, and the Right Hon. Gentleman who last
addressed the House had referred to the measure which
• was most necessary, and to which he would give his cor-
dial support—he meant a measure for facilitating the
transfer of property in Ireland. He knew well the diffi-
culties at present attending the transfer of property in
Ireland, and he found those very ably stated in a lecture
lately delivered by Professor Hancock, to the Statistical
Society of Dublin. In reference to the legal impediments,
the Learned Professor gave instances of one property
sold for 1,2001, for the transfer of which the vendor
and purchaser had to pay 200/. Another sold for 5001.,
where one party had to pay 124/.; and another sold
for 2001., where one of the parties had to pay 401.
of expenses, or 16 per cent. on the purchase price,
the lower that price the greater in proportion being
the expense of transfer. 'The actual amount of ex-
penses paid by the vendor and purchaser was only a part
—there was the delay which took place before the transfer
was completed—the doubt and uncertainty as to the
validity of it, which often arose, and the trouble and ex-
pense which parties were often put to in consequence;
and what they wanted was that there should be inserted
into the Hill of last year a clause authorising the Court
of Chancery, when satisfied of the legality of the tenure
by which the property was held, to give its sanction for
its immediate transfer. Thin there were other measures
which might be applied, of an etpally beneficial nature.
The Noble Lord at the head of the Government, in
making his statement the other evening, had said that
Government had advanced to Ireland under the Land Im-
provement Act the sum of 500,000/, for the purp Ises of
drainage 320,000/, and in aid of the formation of rail.
ways 620,0001, besides 1,000,000/. to be given for the
improvement of estates in Ireland, He granted all
that money had been given, and from personal expe-
rience he could state the great advantage which had
arisen from the sums expended under the Land Im-
provement Act. But there had ever been drawbacks on
the operation of the plan, for in many cases parties had
declined making application for the grant, on the ground
although they did so, and had relieved the poor in their
own neighbourhood, they had no security; but they
would be taxed additionally for the poor of other dis-
tricts. He thought, therefore, the funds applied in that
respect had been too limited, and would suggest that
more of the funds so given should be applied in the
building of offices and farm steadings, and mills, which
were greatly wanted in many parts of Ireland. The
320,0001., given for drainage, was by far too limited,
and consequently the drainage operations had been
almost suspended. He knew one district where eight
hundred able-bodied men were employed in actual drain-
age works, while the works being suspended these were
now all upon the poor-rates; and out of 101 districts
where those public works were in operation, about 70
of them had been suspended, while from 20,000 men
at one time being employed, there were now only 2,000.
As to the 620,0001 advanoed for railways, 520,000/. had
been given to one, and 100,000/. to another, so that but
little good to the country had resulted from that; the
railways for which it was given all running in one direc-
tion. The promotion of railways in Ireland was, how-
ever, of great importance, and he trusted Government
would aid the formation of them, and that other measures
tending to promote the social condition of Ireland would
' also be bad recourse to. He did not refer to those mea-
sures so much talked of, such as tenant right, the church
revenues, and the suffrage. They wanted measures
which would improve the social-- condition of the
eountry, and restore cotifidenee'to That could 'only,
be done by the aid of Government seeurity,and he would,
prge ,the.necessity a such., being.- given.o •He aaleedi,
that the tax should be fairly apportioned, and that'
the industrious and indefatigable people of the north of
Ireland should not be burdened with so unjust and in-
jurious a measure, and therefore moved the following
amendment, that after the words " two years," in the
original motion, there be inserted " that an auxiliary
fund of sixpence in the pound, for relieving the present
distress in Ireland, be raised from all property in the
country over the annual value of 150/."
Mr. W. BROWNE said that he listened with much
satisfaction and attention to the Right Hon. Baronet
(Sir Robert Peel) and considered that his plans were
the most practicable, and would best tend to the welfare
of Ireland. He did not see what object the Members
for that country had in making the opposition to it that
they had, for he did not think it to be a measure of in-
justice or injury, and would ask those Honourable
Gentlemen whether it was just or right that England,
which is subject to a very heavy taxation, should
also be subject to another for their country. He con-
sidered that this country had already paid too much,
for the relief of Irish destitution, and would only require
of the House to refer to the 15,000/. paid by Liverpool
last year for this purpose, and also to the enormous sums
paid by Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, and all the
other manufacturing towns of England. He thought
that no opinion could be more erroneous than that en-
tertained by the Irish people, that 60,000,000/. was due
of this country to Ireland, for he was well aware from
the returns of the amount of Irish income, that making
them an allowance of three and a half per cent. they
would be indebted to this country the sum of 370,000,0001,
but that it was right to give them credit for the duty on
spirits, wine, tea, and tobacco, which reduces their debts
to this country to 200,000,000L—(Laughter.) He did
not see why the Irish should not submit to this sixpenny
rate in aid, and reflect that the people of this country
were always ready in cases of emergency to put their
hands in their pockets for Ireland.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir EDMUND MACNAGHTEN said that the feel-
ing of the people of the north of Ireland, respecting the
present proposition of the Government, reminded him of
the case in Scripture of the five virgins who refused ad-
mittance to the five foolish virgins when they had not
oil to burn in their lamps. The people of the north were
determined to oppose this measure, and for his own part
he looked upon it as impolitic and unjust; for he did not
know why Ulster and Leinster should be made subject
to a heavy tax for the distress of Munster end Con-
naught, particularly when Antrim, Armagh, and Derry
suffered, as well as this south and west, from the failure
of the potato crop. He admitted that unions should
contribute to the support of those in their vicinity; but
could not understand that the 43,1 of Elizabeth intended
to extend the system of mutual support beyond the hun-
dreds or the counties.

Mr. SCULLY said that he fully agreed with the
Noble L ird (Lord John Russell) respecting the limiting
the area of taxation, and the rating of family charges in
cases of annuities and such other measures as he (Lord
.T. Russell) had alluded to relative to Ireland, but to the
last part of his speech he had an opposite opinion. That
was not a question of party, or of religious feeling; and
he felt sorry to see that some of the Members thought it
to be a measure particularly affecting the Protestants of
the north; but such was not the case, because it affected
all, as well Catholics as Protestants. Again, he felt
bound to state that if it were a landlord question, as had
been remarked by some Hun. Gentleman that he should
be the last in the House to support that opposition to
it; but, as being a question that more imme-
diately affected the farmer and the shopkeeper,
he felt bound to give all the opposition that he could
to the present measure. He objected to it on three
different grounds; first, because it was insufficient in
amount to meet the distress for which it was intended:
secondly, because it would be injurious in the mode of its
application; and thirdly, because it would be unjust in
the mode of its being levied. He would ask the House
to look to the report of the Commissioners, and it would
find that 250,0001. is required for twenty-one unions;
but when it was to be remembered that those unions would
require relief for at least twelve months, and that no less
a sum than 587,4801. would be necessary, he felt fully
assured that the Home would be called on before the end
of the present session to support some other similar plan
introduced by the Ministry. He should next say to the
Chancellor of the Exchequer when he stated he would
be the last in the House to support such a measure, if it
were not a temporary one, that the Times said on the
following morning, that the rate in aid would be
scarcely sixpence in the pound, for that the Imperial
Treasury would pay the remainder, whatever would
be requisite fat the alleviation of distress in those
unions; and he therefore wished to know it' more would
not be required of the House under those conditions, as
he feared that those unions would be long embarrassed.
He believed that nothing could tend su much to demo-
ralizing the people of Ireland as doling out relief in that
way. If they would vote for a permanent relief, it would
be quite different, fur it would place the people in such a
position that they could not apply again to the House.
On the whole he looked upon the present measure as a
tinkering one, and as one whose only effect would be
to support bail landlords in the west of Ireland, at the
expense of the honest and industricus of the north. He
would wish to know from Government where those de-
fauWng landlords reside, and who they were; for they
justly merited to be publicly known.—(Hear, hear )
Thirdly, he said that it was unjust in its mode of being
levied; for, if the blouse would look to the Commis-
sioners' report, they would find that there were only
forty live unions whose money in the hands of the
Treasury exceeded their debts; and that thus, out of
131 unions in Ireland, there were only 45 solvent, and on
those 45 unions that tax of 250,000/. was about to be
raised, but such a mode of rating was as impractic-
able as it was impossible, for it would be seen
that, of the 36.000,000/., the income of Ireland, there is
only 13,000,000/. subject to the poor-rate, and, there-
fore, there are 23,000,000/. exempted from this tax. He
should, while he had a vote in that House, vote against any
such measure, for, in addition to the poor-rate levied
in his county (Tipperary), there is also a county cess of
84,958/., and he, therefore, felt it his duty to oppose the
present proposition, particularly when ho was aware that
starvation and death prevailed in that county. If Go-
vernment had introduced any such measure as that
alluded to by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert
Peel) for the employment of the labouring classes,
and for the development of tho industrial resources
of the country, he should with the greatest pleasure
support such a measure, but to the present
he was totally opposed, and he should add, that he
fully agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet, when he
stated that the land in that country should in a great
measure change hands, and that railways and arterial
drainage should be more extensively carried on and not
such measures as Encumbered Estates Acts, The Hon.
Gentleman here referred to the opinion of the Master of
the Pejlls in Ireland against this measure, as one calcu-
latedgood, and as bring one that
to do more injury than
was beneficial to none but English conveyancers ; and
next alluded to the letter of the late Lord Geoege Ben •
tinck to Mr. Ryan, of Tipperary, respecting the repro-
ductive benefits of his railway plans, by which
120,000,000/. income would be realised, and 360,000
labourers and families, amounting to 1,980,000, would
be supported for 15 years ; and argued that the Cus-
toms and revenue would be thus materially benefited.
Sir W. VERNER said, that being a Member for a
county in the north of Ireland, ho felt deeply interested
in the question before the House, and would shortly
trouble them with his views upon the subject. Much
had been said about the loyalty of the people of Ulster.
Ile would tell them that the basis of their loyalty in the
nmtthern counties was that they should be the suppor-
ters of the union with England. The Hon. Member for
Ditblin (Ur, Reynolds) had described that loyalty under

the name of a sixpenny loyalty, but that Hon. Member
was a member of the Loyal Repeal Asso&ation, the
object of which was the repeal of the union with Eng-
land.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord (Lord 'Joan
Russell) knew that the loyalty of the people of Ulster
had been severely tried, and it ought not, therefore, to
be trifled with. (Hear, hear.) lie called the
attention of the House to a petition from the union of
Armagh, stating their inability to pay additional taxa-
tion, and complaining of the composition of the Com-
mittee appointed upon the Irish poor-law. He could
bear testimony that no union had more effectually car-
ried out the law than the union in question. He recol-
lected that when distress prevailed in Ireland in 1816
and 1817, that all persons contributetT according to their
means, the landed interest as well as the moneyed in-
terest, and the consequence was, that the poor were
relieved, while at the same time the landed interest was
not impoverished. Ie the present case, however, the in-
tention was to throw the burden upon the land, and that
without any distinction. On this point he could speak
of his own knowledge as to the state of things in his
own county (Armagh). In one division of it the land
was in the possession of resident lan fiords who dis-
couraged sub letting by every means in their power, and
pauperism was in consequence scarcely knewn upon their
estates. On the other hand, there was land in the same
division of the county, the property of absentee land-
lords, in which sub-letting was encouraged, and the
result was the very reverse—for on these estates pau-
perism abounded. He therefore complained of the Jaw,
that it made no distinction between resident landlords
whose estates were well managed, and absentee land-
lords, whose properties were so managed as to increase
the distress.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. CLEMENTS said that the tax intended to be
levied upon Ireland was a question of vital importance
to every Member connected with that country. It
was acknowledged that a sum was necessary to relieve
the distress which prevailed in its unions. It had
been argued that the tax should not be a local tax,
but that it should fall upon the general revenue of the
country.—(Hear, hear.) But as the case was a press-
ing one, they must waive that question at present, as
it was manifest from the temper of the House, that
the money that was required must come from anirish
source. Much had been said about unjust taxation; and
that eleven or twelve millions had been raised in this
country which Ireland did not pay. Now, upon that
subject he would say, that the question was whether
there was not a compact made with Ireland at the time
of the Union, and that according to this compact this
country was bound not to tax Ireland for a certain por-
tion of the public debt.—(Hear, hear.) If that were so,
Ireland should not be taunted with not paying her pro-
portion of taxation—(Hear, hear)—and he thought that
a Committee should be appointed to investigate the sub-
ject and set it at rest—(Hear, hear)—as he fur his own
part felt strongly on the conduct which had been pur-
sued in that House and out of it upon that subject.—
(Cries of " Hear, hear.") With reference to the pro-
, posed rate, it was very easy to say that it amounted
only to sixpence, but there was the principle of laying
on such a tax at all—whether a law should be passed
by the unit. d Legislature imposing a tax upon
Ireland.—(Hear.) It was very easy to say that there
were Irish Members present, but still there was the
principle of laying a tax upon Ireland alone; and, in
fact, the Irish Members formed a very,stnall portion, ,of
the Members sent to that Hotis'e. It was said that the
-rite'svitronly to be passed for tirniii_ars, but it NidiLNlt
that-'if .Ifie-prindiple of ituclvtaxation hatild (be' 'este
lelieheele it. would bcrexteadectitadeffnitelye? The.-Right;
Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir Robert Peel) had said last'
year, with reference to the West Indies, that no single
measure would be a remedy, but that a series of mea-
sures was necessary, according to the particular locality.
Such was undoubtedly the case with Ireland, but he
feared, should the rate in aid be carried, that little at-
tention would be paid to other measures. They saw the
feeling that was exhibited in the case of the Hon.
Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume)' with reference to
the grant of 50,0001., who said that he considered it to
be an English question.—(Hear, hear.) The next
question was, as to the way in which the rate was to
be levied; for they did not know whether it was to be
adjusted on the new poor-law valuation, which had been
very unequal as between union and union—the difference
being so great in some instance-1' as -56 per cent. How,
he wished to know, was this rate to be levied? It was
liable to the remarkable objection that in many unions
it could not be carried out. They had seen the effects
that had been produced in many of the western districts,
owing to the manner in which the rates pressed there. •
A. panic had seized the people in those districts, and he I
feared that it would extend itself all over the country.
He wished to know from her Majesty's Government
whether they intended to make a special rate, and if so,
whether it was their intention to levy it in the summer,
a time when the means of the people were most ex-
hausted? He would suggest to the Government that
the best time to levy the rate would be in the harvest.
With respect to the suggestion of the Right Honourable
Baronet the Member for Tamworth, that it appeared
advisable first to obtain the rate in aid, and then to im-
pose a property-tax, he (Mr. Clements) must say that
those taxes would ?all most heavily on the farmers,
and would in such operation prove measures of
great severity. With respect to the proposed rate of
6d. in the pound. if it was to be levied as a rate, what-
ever the Noble Lord might say, or whatever the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer might say, as to its being only a
rate for two years, the people of Ireland would not be-
lieve them.

Mr. BOURKE directed attention to the system of gra-
tuitous relief which prevailed in Ireland prior to the
introduction of the poor-law to that countr) ; and with
respect to the pecuniary assistance given from time to
time by the people of England to alleviate the distresses
of the Irish people, said he was not iriensible to the mo-
tives which actuated them; Mit of the manner in which
the distribution of the aid so contributed was carried out
he could not but complain, as at once wasteful and de-
moralising. The proposition of the Noble Lord was
nothing less than to make a Stave provision for paupers.
lle was opposed to the proposed tax, and to the mode in
which it was proposed to levy it. The people were not
in a condition to pay this tax; they had not resources or
means equal to it, but give them " English industry,"
and they would be not only in a condition to meet it, but
would cheerfully pay not merely 7d. iu the pound, but
one shilling. He assured the Government, that unless
they endeavoured to assimilate the area of taxation to
the area of taxation in this country, and to encourage
emigratio❑ on an enlarged and sound scale, no plan whic
they might propose would prove succestul.
Mr. ROCHE said that neither the last Hon. Member
nor the Hon. Gentleman who prece led him (Mr. Cle-
ments) had shown them how the starving population of
Connaught were to be saved from their present fearful
position. If he said "no" to this vote, in what position
would he be in? If he turned to the Hon. Member for
Buckingham, and agreed to say " no" to the motion be-
fore the House, that lion. Gentleman would say nothing,
but would button up his breeches pocket. If ho turned
to the lion. Member for Northampton: he, too, would
button up his breeches pocket; but would, at the same
time, ask him to read his speeches by which he proposed
to give a tax of one and sixpence in the pound to the
Minister, instead of sixpence. If he looked to his own
countrymen on the opposite benches who opposed this
rate in aid, he would ask them would they give up the
grand jury system if he supported them in opposing this
vote in aid? Not they. Will they give up the Church
Establishment in Ireland, to which fourteen times more
was given than ought to be? No; they would cry at
once, "No surrender." Then he turned to tae questio❑
of the rate in aid, and here he must observe that they
ought to recollect that there were hundreds of persons
daily dying of starvation in Ireland, and that England
had declared she would not give a shilling to relieve that
starvation. This being so, he had no alternative but to
support a rate in aid, to feed the poor population in Con-
naught. The best thing about the rate in aid was that it
was temporary. IF he thought it was not to be so he
would oppose it.—(A laugh.) He denied the correct-
ness of the historical recollections of the Right Hon.
Baronet the Member for Tamworth. lie looked upon
the plantation of Ulster by the English in a very dificrent
point of view from the Right Honourable Baronet, who
had that night quoted an extract from a song preva-
lent in 1798. The Right Honourable Baronet had fa-
♦oured the House with a quotation from a ballad of 1798.
Now, as the Right Hon. Baronet boasted of the planta-
tion of Ulster and the benefit which it had conferred
on Ireland, he (Mr. Roche) would quote ono stanza
from an Irish ballad written by one of thoso who were
planted in Ulster two centuries after the plantation.—
(Loud laughter.) It was very easy for lion. Gentlemen
to raise a cheap laugh at his expense. He did not sup-
pose there was any man who did not sometimes make a
slip of the tongue--(Laughter)—and certainly he must
admit that it was somewhat the propensity of his coun-
trymen.—(Laughter.) This was a song—(Cries of
" Sing, sing," followed by shouts of laughter.) He could
not sing without music, and certainly did not consider
the interruptions of lion. Gentlemen a very pleasant
accompaniment.—(Great laughter.) He would now read
the lines—

" The battle of the Diamond
(Far let the watchword fly),
Where craven Papist rebels crouched,
Upon the earth to die,
Slain by devoted men and true,
Who fought with heart and blade,
And slaughtered in their ambush vile,

By swords they had betrayed."
—(Laughter.) lie did not think that the continuance of
that spirit of religious differences—the planting on the
necks of a Catholic population an Orange and Protestant
oligarchy—would either benefit Ireland, or confer any
honour on this country.—(Hear, hear.) The Right
Hon. Baronet proposed to create a new plantation in Con-
naught, and he was to do this by means of a commis-
sion. Now, he could tell the Right Hon. Baronet that
the people had no hope from commissions. If, indeed,
the Right lion. Gentleman would have the land in
Connaught purchased and let out in small fsrms, and
thus create a substantial yeomanry, why he might effect
some good. But he would like to know who was to
purchase this land in Connaught ? Was he to pay for
this purchase out of his ( states in Cork?—(Hear, hear.)
Nov, if the Right lion. Baronet would not stop here,
but go with him, and consent that the tenure of land in
Ireland should be altered, then he would have some hope
for the fate of Ireland, from the suggestion thrown out
by the Right Hon. Baronet. In conclusion, ho had only
to express a hopo that the rate in aid would not be
pressed until after the harvest.
Sir A. BROOKE looked upon the propos( d rate in
aid 13 a most mischievous proposition. He attributed
the present state of Ireland to misgovernment, to the
misconduct of the Irish landlords, and lastly to absen-
teeism. He admitted that there were many good land.
lords in Connaught and in Munster ; but three- fourths
of the landlords had left the country, andallo7d those
at home to struggle agsinst the difficultiesties which they
had to contend on a poor and impoverished country.
Ile contended that they ought, to lay a heavy tax upon
the absentees.—(Hear, hear.) He proposed to put a
double poor•rate upon the property of absentees.—
(lear, hear.) Ha contended that it was the duty of the

' Government to adopt strong measures, and one of these
would be to oblige landlords having waste lands on their
estates, to improve it. In Mayo alone there were
470,000 acres of waste land which was reclaimable.
Why should not the landlords be called upon to reclaim
this land ? If they did not do so, the Goverment
ought to step in and fake the land, and having re claims d
the land, return any balance- which might be left to the
landlords. The resident landlords were, in many in
stances, paying 15s. in the pound, not in the shape of
poor-rates, but in employing labourers on their estates.
Sir G. GREY said that the several important admis-
sions which had been made in the course of this discus-
sion, he was hati)py to say, would enable him considerably
to limit his observations, inasaiteih as those admis:iens
had very much narrowed the questions at issue. The
first admission which had been made was that there did
exist in some of the western unions of Ireland an amount
of distress which rendered it impossible to relieve the
destitution in those unions from their local resources--
(Hear, hear)—but rendered some extraneous aid abso-
lutely necessary in order to avert scenes of misery aed
starvation which he was sure the Eouse of Commons
would not be prepared to sit by and see enacted without
some strenuous endeavour, some continuous exertion to
prevent it.—(hear, hear.) It was not necessary for him
to go into the papers which had been fail before the
House to show vs hat was the actual state of title digress,
ceir-;e that part of the case was not controverted, nor
was the necessity denied of something being itnineiiately
done to avert the result to which he alluded. In the
necessity for doing something all parties concurred.
—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Member for Tipperary
had said that the object of the measure was to relieve
the landlords and hot the. people. He had to say that
that was not the object of the measure, which was pro
posed to afford relief not to the landlords, but to those
of the people who were proved to be in the lowest state
of destitution. The Hon. Gentleman who had just sat
down, and whose opinion was entitled to the highest
respect, had made some observations from which he
(Sir George Grey) was not prepared to dissent.
The Hon. Gentleman had said that the present condition
of Ireland was the consequence partly of centuries of
misgovernment, and partly of the bad conduct .and
neglect of many of the Irish landlords themselves.—
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman admitted that great
exertions bad been made in many localities to collect
the rates, and that many of the landlords had not only
contributed largely in the shape of poor-rates, but
had also made considerable sacrifices in providing em-
ployment for the people. While he agreed with the
Hon. Gentleman that great credit was due to the
owners of property in the union of Ballina, for the man-
ner in which they had paid their contributions to the
poor-rate, he must concur that if they were to go into
the causes of the existing distress, it would be impos-
sible to deny that the owners of property in that part
of Ireland were not wholly free from blame—(Hear, hear)
—and that the system pursued by them of letting out
the land in small patches for the purpose of growing
potatoes—and which before the failure of the potato
crop were capable of maintaining large numbers of per-
sons by their produce, and which were consequently let
at very high rents—had produced a pauper tenantry,
men without capital, who had not a shilling in their
pockets when they paid their rents; and the estates
having descended from father to son, were at length
made the mere subject of a nominal rental. 'Why, the
very extract the Right lion. Gentleman had read from
the' report' expressed most forcibly this' important fact,
• that.the distress in•lhe unionasvaseint attributable to the
poor-law, but that it had its origin ine.be ,tirstefailura,of
the potato crop.—(Hear, hear.) The House were not
however, now inquiring into the causes of the distress.
They found thousands of people on the very verge of
starvation, and the question was, how were they to be
fed? The assertion so very generally made by those whose
opinions were entitled to the greatest weight in that
House, because they were fully cognisant of the circum-
stances of the country, and discharged their duties faith-
fully—the admission so often expressed by these Hon.
Members that the time had come when some steps must
be put to the repeated applications to Parliament for
grants of public money, was, entitled to weight.—(Hear,
hear.) But what was the question? Why, it was this
—if the aid now indispensably necessary for the suffer-
ing was to be rendered by Parliament. whether the pro-
posal of her Majesty's Ministers to raise 63. in the pound,
limiting that rate in its amount and also in its duration,
was not the least objectionable mode in which the tax
could be levied?—(Hear, hear.) He felt himself bound
to look at the mein objections to the proposal. The
Honourable Member for Middlesex seemed to think
that it had been introduced by his Noble Friend at
the Head of the Government very suddenly and
without any prior intimation. Now, if the Honourable
Member had made himself acquainted with the pro-
ceedings in the Committee, he would have known that
his Noble Friend was there asked if he had any plan to
propose for the relief of Irish distress, or any permanent
alteration that he was prepared to make. He then made
the announcement that he should be ready to lay the

?resent proposition before the House ; and so far from
.t having come suddenly forward, his Noble Friend had
stated his views to the Committee, and tht it opinion was
not asked upon the resolutions until they had been
afforded sufficient time to consider their import.—
(Hear.) But the main objections to the proposal were
of two classes, and some were expressed in the liou-e,
and others out of doors. The Hon. Member for North-
amptonshire (Mr. Stafford) had led the van in the House,
but he had hardly redeemed his promise to point out
its injustice, impracticability, and impolicy, for
although he had occupied a considerab:e portion of
time in proving its injustice, ho had said nothii g
on the other two subj,ets.—(Laughter and applause.)
Ile seemed to have lost himself upon the question of the
area of taxation. But he had strongly contended that
these Parliamentary grunts ought to cease; and here the
Hon. Gentleman was perfectly consistent, for he had
voted against the former grants. He had voted against
the 50,0001., upon the ground that extrinsic aid of that
nature was destructive of that sell-reliance which he
thought so necessary for the social elevation of the
people of Ireland. He (Sir G. Grey) agreed with him
most fully, that the principle of self-reliance could not
be cultivated too highly ; and the Government had in-
duced the inhabitants of the distressed districts to exert
themselves for their own support, and to use all the
means within their reach for the relief of destitution,
before they felt themselves justified in applying to Par
liament for a grant of public money. But when the
erinciple of self-reliance was used as an argument at a
time wlen the House was endeavouring to prevent star-
vation, those who put it forward ought to remember that
self-reliance was of slow growth in Ireland, and
that however much we might wish to cultivate that prin-
ciple we could not expect to render it immediately
availuble.—([tear, hear.) Thon the Hon. Gentleman
went on to say that be was in favour of equal taxation
in Ireland, all over the country, for the purpose of re-
lieving the distress; but how was that proposal con-
sistent with the cultivation of the principle of self-
reliance? If the money were to be raised and paid into
the imperial treasury, and if it was then expended in the
shape of grants to the unions, the whole principle of self-
reliance would be involved and destroyed. The pro-
posal, however, was one that answered itself, for the H, n.
Member had admitted the policy of taxing one part of
Ireland for the support of another. lie (Sir G. Grey)
concurred with him in believing that an indefinite ex-
pectation of Parliamentary assistance had a most injuri-
ous effect on the habits of the people; but he entertained
a hope that as Parliamentary grants would be no longer
the system pursued—(Hear, hear)—these indefinite ex-
pectetions would die away, and the priociple of self-
reliance would be cultivated.—(Hear.) Ho now came to
the speech of the Hon. Member for the county of Limerick
(:11 r. Monsell), with regard to whom ho might say that
he listened to his addresses with profit and instruction.
because his opinions were not only sincere but of an
exceedingly practical nature.—(hear, hear.) He ad-
mitted that the necessary funds ought to come from Ire-
land, but he objected to a rate in aid, and inclined rather
to the opinion that an income-tax would be less objec-
tionable. The lion. Gentleman who moved the amend-
anent would also substitute an income-tax for the rate in
aid, but he would apply that tax to local purposes— erni•
gration probably being one of those purposes. What
was the difference in principle between that and the
present proposal? It was said that the rate in aid was
a new rate; that the whole of Ireland had not before
been called up on to contribute in a similar manner, and
that in England and Scotland the application of it was
not so extensive as was now proposed. But it seemed
to be forgotten that an income-tax for local
purposes was in fact a rate in aid.—(Hear, hear.)
The question, then, to consider was, whether that tax
would be more acceptable to the Irish people generally
than a rate in aid.—(Loud expressions of dissent from the
Irish Members, and ironical laughter and cheers from
the English and Scotch.) Ho was not prepared to argue
that the income-tax should be imposed on Ireland, but
if Hon. Gentlemen could show the Government that
the Irish Members were anxious to have an income-tax
in Ireland rather than a rate in aid, that would be a
strong reason why their preference should be consulted.
—(Renewed expressions of dissent from the Irish Mem-
bers, and laughter and cheers from the English and
Scotch.) He confessed that he was not surprised at
these very manifest symptoms of dissent to the propo-
sition, because he believed, looking at the language made
use of in and out of the House, that if the Govern-
ment had come down and proposed an income-tax,
even for local purposes, the opposition to that :measur
e
would be infinitely stronger than it was to the present.the
—(hear, hear.) With regard to
Honourable Gentleman must have meant that
emigraatisona,mode
of relief to the western unions, otherwisens;
and he was
no benefit
would be conferred by it upon those .unit
perhaps b© one
o
willing to admit that emigration
amelgh a subject that could
mode of relief. At all events, it was
be considered hereafter, provid, d it were made to appear
that it would be an effectualmethod of meeting the evil.
—Meer.) He must say that an income-tax applied to
local purposes was a pr
itnciple much more new than a
rate in aid. To
apply a tax of that kind, tor instance, to
county purposes
would bo a very novel principle, though
he did not state this as apositive objection to the scheme.
His Noble Friend (Lord John Russell) seemed to have
been mistaken if it were supposed that he intended
the rate in aid to apply specially to Ulster. Was
the opposition in Ulster to the rate, or to the principle
of any taxes being imposed on Ireland generally for the
purpose of relieving distress?--(" To the principle."—
Laughter.) It appeared from the report of a meeting held
in the county of Tyrone, that the parties seemed to la-
bour under the impression that Ulster was now specially
selected for taxation; but that was a delusion, for the
rate would be a general one for the whole of Ireland. In
fact, it would be a national rate; and the people who
objected to it on that or any other ground ought to re-
collect the grants and leans made to relieve Irish distress
already by the Imperial Parliament. lie begged to call
the attention of those Hon. Gentl- men who complained
that English farmers and capitalists did not bear a fair
share of the burdens for the support: of the poor to a re•
turn from December, 1846, to December, 1847, of the
number of Irish paupers who received relief out of the
poor-rates of some of the metropolitan districts—the
numbers being 159,000, and the expense 75,0004; these

districts not including the city of London nor the union
of St. Luke's, for which the returns were not perfected.
—(Heer, hear.) And yet that was but a small portion
et the relief afforded by this country towards the
relief of Irish paupers. By a return he had
received from Liverpool, it appeared that during
the la3t fourteen weeks no less than 51,000 deck
passengers were landed at that port from Ireland—
the majority, he was happy to say, being for emigra-
tion, of which the people of Liverpool eould not complain,
as it circulated more money, but deducting them and
some others the balance of absolute paupers thrown upon
the rates was 15,000, or more than I,oooa week.—(Hear,
hear.) Large amounts for Irish paupers were also paid
by Manchester and other larger towns, and in the gene-
rat report of the Poor-law Commissioners for 1848 they
stated that the poor-rates had exceeded the ordinary
amount by 800,000/.; and that the greater part of that was
on account of Irish pauperism. It could not, therefore, be
said that English farmers and others did not bear a fair
share of the burden of poor-rates even for Irish poor.—
(Hear, hear.) The representatives of the north of Ire-
land objected to a rate in aid, not because they preferred
an income-tax, but la. cause they objected to any tax in
any shape for the purpose of alleviating Irish distress.
The Hon. Member fo: Limerick (Jlr. Monsell) objected
to tha inequality of the valuation; but surely that
was not a conclusive argument against the
rate. If it were, it was equally so against the
poor-law itself as against the county rate.
The objections to art income-tax, as a mode of imme-
diate relief, were very great, on account of the neces-
sity which would arise for creating machinery fur its
collection; while, in the collecti m of the rate in aid not
u shilling of extra expense would be incurred. He con•
curred in all that had been stated as to this being a
temporary expedient. The Government would certainly
not have made this proposal to the House if they had it
not in contemplation to propose a modification of the
existing poor-laws, His Noble Friend had stated the
other night the outline of the modifications which they
intended to propose, some of which would be most im-
portant and beneficial in their operation. But did any
one suppose that they could discuss and adopt all these
suggestions, ailing with this resolution for a rate in aid,
and do it in sufficient time to make the rate in aid avail-
able fur the immediate purpose for which it was required?
These modifications, however, would be proposed, and
he trusted, assented to by the House, at a later period
of the session. He had already stated that measures
had been taken by the Government with reference to
the area of taxation; but before any satisfactory conclu-
sion could be come to a great many preliminary steps
were required to be adopted. As to the suggestions
thrown out by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel)
he was certain no one would dissent from his proposi-
tion, that the Government was bound to look beyond
the present moment bound, not only to pro-
vide the means of relief for the existing des-
titution, but also to provide, as far as they were able,
for the future, and to look forward to the adoption
of permanent means by which these portions of Ire-
land might be placed in a condition to maintain them-
selves, without having recourse to these continual
calls for external assistance, and whereby the holders
and occupiers of property might be able to support
their own poor. He (Sir George Grey) had stated
what he conceived to be the cause of the distress ;
and, in looking to the remedies which might be applied,
though he was less sanguine, perhaps, than the Right
Hon. Baronet in thinking that Parliament or the Govern-
ment-could- apply any direct remedy, ho most entirely
concurred in the opinion
.expressed by the Right Hon.
Baronet, that the remedy was to be sought in the trans-
fer of property from the hands in which it now was to
those of others--from landlords who had inherited their
property overwhelmed with burdens, and with a surplus
income not sufficient to enable them properly to discharge
their duties to those around them—to men who were
possessed of such an amount of capital as would effec-
tually enable them to discharge the duties of their posi-
tion, and to provide employment for the people on their
estates.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Honourable Baronet
had not exaggerated the difficulties of this subject. He
had alluded to the Act passed last session tor facili-
tating the transfer of land ; and he must say that it
was only by slow experience that a conviction was forced
upon gentlemen accustomed to the forms of law and
equity, of the necessity of dispensing with some of those
forms which in their notions derived from education and
long-cherished habits were essential for the protection
of the rights of property.—(llear, hear.) No doubt
those gentlemen thought it necessary to lay down these
rules for the protection of property, and they would be
slow in receiving the conviction that they were unne-
cessary; it was no less true that the Court of Chancery
was not a court likely to assist in the removal of the
obstacles which prevented the transfer of property.—
(Hear, hear.) At the same time, it was no doubt
very desirable to accelerate the process of transfer.
It was undoubtedly the interest of the holder of pro-
perty in those parts of Ireland where heavy poor-rates ex-
isted to dispose of that property; and what was wanted
was to make it the interest of the people to buy. The
thing that was wanted was so to modify the poor-laws as
to induce persons to enter the market without being
deterred from purchasing by the weight of poor-rates,
which, no doubt, was the principal cause why the Act of
last session had been comparatively inoperative. The
only remedy for this would he to relieve the purchasers
from the rates in arrear, which at the present moment
were deterring them from making purchases. Whether
the Commission which the Right lion. Baronet proposed
would accelerate the transfer of property or not was a
imt:er for consideration; but it the gentlemen com-
posing it were to have power to decide all the questions
that might be raised about the titles to property, it
would be necessary that they should be lawyers; and if
so, the parties would find themselves in much the same
state as the Court of Chancery. At the same time,
he should be sorry to express a hostile opinion
to a proposal of that kind without its being
presented in more detail. He believed that the Con-
nemara estate, to which allusion had been made,
was likely to become the property of one of the
great insurance companies; it aas to be sold either to-
gether or in lots. The Right Hun. Baronet had spoken
of selling it in small lots of one or two thousand acres.
I'robably he was not rightly informed of the nature of
;he property, a great portion of it being of that descrip-
tion that it could not be divided. He hoped, however,
that by means of the Sale of Encumbered Estates Bill of
last session very many of the obstacles to the transfer of
property would be removed, though it might be by a
slow and gradual, but sure, process. He trusted the
House would not reject the proposition before them,
without being satisfied that there was some other course
which would better secure the desired object.
Viscount CASTLEREAGH moved that the chairmati
should report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
Lord J. RUSSELL hoped the debate would now be
allowed to clove, and that the sense of the Committee
might at least be taken on the preliminary resolution.
After a few words from Sir J. WaLSu, a division took
place on the question of adjournment.
For the adjournment ••• ••• 104
Against it ••• ••• ••• 251 '
Majority —147 .
Lord CASTLEREAGH again moved-the adjourne
went.

Lord J RUSSELL amid great confusion, was undet".
stood to accede to the adjournment, with the under.
standing that the debate should be resumed this day.
He hoped that gentlemen who had notices on the paper
would consent to postpone them.
BRIBERY AT ELECTIONS BILL.
Sir J. PARING FON moved that the following gen-
tlemen be nominated a Committee on the Bribery at
Efections Bill:—Sir John Pakington, Lord Ashley, Sir
Frederic Thcsiger, Mr. Bouverie, Viscount Mahon, Mr.
Brotherton, Mr. Walpole, Mr. Legh, Sir John Harmer,
Mr. Horirnan, Mr. Wrightson, Mr. Napier, Mr. Mait-
land, Mr. Mulling, and Mr. Sheridan.
Colonel SIBTHORP opposed the motion on the
ground of the lateness of the hour, and moved the ad-
journment of the House.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said that he had given ample
notice of the composition of the Committee, and he could
only say that he had endeavoured to constitute the Com-
mittee as fairly as possible.
Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY objected to the placing of the
same Members on several Committees at the same time.
It was impossible for them to perform the duties that
were expected from them on these several Committees.
He thought the business ought to be more fairly dis-
tributed amongst the Members of the House generally,
and should not bo left to some thirty or forty Members o
of it. lie knew instances of Committees where
_ .
h
chairman was the only person present to conduct the a
gully and cross-examine the witness,
rules of the House it was necessary that
five to constitute a quorum.—(ltar2s. although
there shouldby hb:
point alluded to
of consideration.
by the Hon. Gentleman
Mr. W. PAT I'EN said that t
an y existed
l ought to consider whether
list session, and the H Committees should not
The abuse of which he cwomasprained eert i 1 • d
the rule which applied to private worthy of
be extended to public Committees,
namely, that the
clerk of the Committee should notify to the chairman
whe
n there were not five members present, and that all
further
proceedings should cease till the requisite num-
ber w
names o
agPrpresent.—(Hear.)
n ti
several
—(He ar
The
Members, to whom no objection
was made, were then nominated.
On the motion that Sir J. lianmer be one of the Com-
mittee,
Mr. MACKENZIE objected to his name standing.
The House divided, wheat
there appeared—
For Sir J. Hammer . 31
Against .• ••• ••• 3
Majority
••• ..• ••• •••
••• —2B
As there were not forty Members present, the House
necessarily adjourned at One o'clock.

NEW ASSURANCE COMPANIES.—The following
offiaes were founded last year :—The Agis, British
Empire (Fire), Counties, Dundee, Etonian, Engineers,
Gresham, Indisputable, Independent, Mentor, Metropo-
litan Counties, National Mercantile Fire, Prudential, and
Scottish Marine. In 1844 eleven offices ceased to exist;
in 1846, ten; in 1847, five; and last year thirteen. From
1844 to 1846, ho less than 146 companies were projected,
but only seventy six were founded. Out of twenty com-
panies projected up to the close of the last year, Di"
have commenced business. At the present moment
nearly a dozen new companies are in the course of pro-
jection. As many of these emanate from irresponsible
parties, and as it is not unlikely they may have to deal
with a large amount of private capital, which there is no-
thing to prevent them from improperly squandering, it may
h. crime a question whether it would not be well for the
Legislature to require not only that the promoters and
managers of these undertakings, but those of the moat
ancient, the most successful, and the most respectable
companies should periodically publish in the Gazette the
number of shares issued and paid upon, with the amount,
the number of policies issued, and their amount,
the amount of money lent on securities, and the extent of
their respective capitals, as joint stock companies are
required to de.-The Reporter an diseurance Chrenick
for March,

LEGAL TITLE ASSURANCE
COMPANY.
(Provisionally Registered, January 17, 11340.)
Capital, 2,000,0001., in 80,000 Shares, of 25/. each.
Preliminary Deposit, 2s. 6d. per Share
Prospectuses and full information may be obtainer' at the Tempo-
za.7 Offices of the Company, 13A, Cannon-row, Westminster, on ap-
rilzatica to

G. F. HOW E, non. Se., pro tern.

COSIPLETIO OF BURKE'S LANDED GENTRY.
Now Ready, in royal Bvo., price 10s. 6.1.,
AGENERAL. INDEX to 13URKE'S
HISTORY OF THE LANDED GENTRY
Of England, Scotland, and Ireland,
Comprising ALL TITS NsarEs (upwards of 100,000) mentioned in
the Work ; and forming the completion of this important national
undertaking.
"A work in which every English gentleman will Bud a domestic
interest, as it contains the fullest account of every known family in
the United Kingdom. It cannot fail also to be of the greatest utility
to professional men in their researches respecting the members of
different families, heirs to property, &c. Indeed it will become as
necessary as a Directory in every lawyer's office."—Messenger.
Henry Colburn, Publisher, 13, Great Marlborough-street.

RO BERT HOUD IN. - ST. JAMES'S
THEATRE.
Close of this attrac' We Entertainment.
M. ROBERT HOUDIN will have the honour to repeat his extra-
ordinary SOIREEA FANTASTIQUES, at this Pheatre as follows:--
This Evening (Tuesday) • • 3larch F.
To-morrow ( Wednesday) • • „ 7.
Thursday Evening .. • • ~ 8.
Being positively the last Entertainment, owing to 3S. Houdin's depar-
ture for the provinces.
Evening Performance at Half-past Eight ; Day Performance at
Half-past Two.
Boxes, 4s. ; Pit, 2s. ; Amphitheatre, Is. 6d.
Boxes, Stalls, and Ilikets for this extraordinary Entertainment
MaY be Secured at Mitchell's Royal Library, 33, Old Bond-street ;
and at the Box-office of the Theatre, which is open daily from Eleven
till Five o'clock.

TBEATRE ROYAL, HAYMARKET,
Mr. B. Webster, Sale Lessee and Manager. Old Itrompton.
The public is respectfully informed that this Theatre has, during
the recess, undergone very extensive repairs and alterations and tl e
Whole redecorated.