The Sun.
London, England, 1823-05-06 00:00:00

IiO'U.SE OF COMMONS.

weSre lard Papers' from Public Offices were presented, which
Air,on the table, and ordered to be printed.
(IrtIzie(ITIVWEN presented a Petition from the Smithfield
tati, rs‘ Ah3ociation, praying fora prohibition on the impor-
on of Pore' rtt Tall Laid on the table.
Petition was
A Pet' • °w•—
"utY.--tatiti on the table.
presented from Frome against the Coal

Pta AVERY.
IYr. lIALDIAIANDS pLresented a petition from Ipswich,
on tlle table. the abolition or Slavery in the West Indies.—Laid
411 rri,",,?„l"As ACLAND presented several petitions of a
sever arts es
"—Laid tfrbln al P hin the County of Devon.
Alr W e.
Edmtinds,SaielTliforPteld,6l‘ed
011 the table.ar petitions from Bury St.
and another p.lace in Norfolk.—Laid

Sir JOH ,t,„,„ CATHOLICS.
Ca-
tholic I I IN: Is`r-"v PORT presented a Petition from the Ca-
alins.isco-eno4ll:lei:jarrio)birtanmi tiZfgthe Union of Tuam, Ireland, complain-
e-ng excluded from participating in the Vestries
assessment on -the Parish. The Right
the! lyironet stated that a Gentleman owning 1,200 acres in
Itareuebsnietrat:hot:hV' and who lead been Churchwarden, was excluded
OULBURN said that when the petition was on the
he should have an opportunity of examining into the al-
tie iris of it, and he had no doubt he should be able to sa-
Zotnie Ilouse as to the particulars of the case.. _
eailin ~A. lIAIIIILTON thought the petition involved a case
thesir!).rplirerrtzioosEt
imarked
sauttpepontrtioenootfhe Parliament. .
il read and ordered tribe laid on the tablP:.ution, which was
habir• V. FITZGERALD presented a
_petition from the In-
peliitants of the County of Clare, Ireland, praying for the re-
af‘the Leathtr Tax.—Laid on the table. '
laal:" 'OOD gave notice, that lie should on the 22d instant
Ment. a series of Resolutions relative to the law of Settle-
at Ll.'lle Iron. Member also presented a petition from Staines
,I,4st the Coal Tax.—Laid on the table.
..nr. 1 T ,
for ~ ILSIE presented a
.petition from Leominster,hpraying
ii 'e abolition of Slavery in the West Indies, and t e equa-
zatton of the duties on East and West India Sugar.
Ai .EDINBURGH REPRESENTATION.
of Lar'. ABERCROM BY presented a Petition from the City
ti t, llbtlrgli, signed by 7;000 Householders, calling the attrn-
4414:the House to the peculiar state of their represenstaettioo _
illenar‘oltanient. Their representative was chosen_ by ao
..a.l
tion, torment•
,ttni.ng one three-thousandth part of the wi* p Puir
"). %Ito in fact elected each other in tirt
e,posigesseti hundred and
perpetuity. These pe -
2,500/. out of 400,00 W, being one_.people
of
littilT Part of the property of the Electors. T)
tkel, tirgh knew no more and had no more influencue aver the
q tit of their representative than they had.over the election
t
th , I%lton. Member thatorfe-Castle (Mr. Bankes). Athe
-tY knew of it was, 19 people seic-electedonet together,

Mr. CALCRAFT said, the House had only been lately in-
formed of the state of the representation of the City of Edin-
burgh ; that the Gentleman representing it was in fact the re-
presentative of a Burgh Town. The supposed number of his
constituents was reduced to three hundred and thirty, which
number was reduced to 19, that being the number of self-
elected electors by which the Right lion. Gentleman was re-
turned. He noticed the very easy manner in which the Right
Hon. Gentleman had passed and repassed, and got himself
elected or re-elected, while in the enjoyment of a lucrative sine-
cure of 3,0001. per annum. He, however, did not know but he
was doing injury to the cause of Reform, by thus dwelling on
the happy course which he had pursued with this self-electing
Electors. To-night the Right Hon. Gentleman had denied that
this Petition spoke the sense of the City from which he came.—
A Petition, subscribed but by six or seven thousand persons,
bad been thus described by a Right Honourable Gentleman,
who was the Representative of nineteen. He (Mr. Calcraft)
must, however, be excused if lie took their word in prefe-
rence to that of the Right Honourable Gentleman ; and he
supposed that as they stated some of the most respectable
individuals in
.the place favoured this Petition, though the
Right Hon. Gentleman knew nothing of them. He hoped the
lion. Gentleman would bring in the Bill which he intended
proposing to the House • and he (Mr. Calcraft) could not but
think that even the Right lion. Gentleman opposite, who, lie
believed, had been prevented from going to govern India, that
he might stay here to oppose Parliamentary Reform, could in
this case hardly refrain from siding with the friends of the
measure.
Lord BINNING did not rise to retort any sarcasms uttered
on the subject of Borough representation by the lion. Member
for the Borough of Wareham.—(A laugh.)—He however could
not help expressing surprise, that in a place where the popu.
Wien was so great, anti where so much pains had been taken
to obtain the signatures of all manner of men, all manlier of
women and all manner of children, that not more than from 6
to 7000 names had been obtained. He was no friend to any of
the Parliamentary Reforms which had been proposed, and he
objected to that picemeal Parliamentary Reform which was
now called for by the Hon. Gentlemen opposite. Ile hoped
the House would nut sanction the principle of taking up the
constitution of every particular borough, and dealing with it,
because it was thought defective, as if some abuse was in proof
against it.
Mr. J. P. GRANT said, as the Noble Lord had a funda-
mental objection to all sorts of Reform, he (imitating the con-
duct of the Noble Lord towards his Honourable Friend)
would hold no argument with him on that subject. He, how-
ever, protested against the doctrine,.,.,htlAia.tnaretideote:tc!otsrriunptilitoenCoband-
stitution were to he retti‘atba, i
been proved.
General FERGUSSON said, this petition was signed by
6,000 persons, and no person had been allowed to sign it who
did not hold a house, of the rent of five pounds, or upwards.
There were but 21,000 houses so rated in Edinburgh, and many
of these were held by women.
Mr. HUME said there were but 21,000 families in Edin-
burgh. The number of houses that paid hi. and upwards as
rent, was but 10,168. In respectability and in number, there-
fore, this petition was signed by three-fourths, if not y four-
fifths, of the whole population contprisal within the limits of
the city of Edinburgh.
Mr. DRUMMOND, admitting this petition to be signed by
7,000 persons, would ask any man who knew how thefie names
had been collected, who knew that it was at one time impos-
sible to walk a hundred yards without meeting a number of
persons in the street who were trying to induce intlityaials to
sign the petition, if it ought to be considered, to express the
sense of the inhabitants of Edinburgh. Ile was of opinion that
such was not the fact.
The petition was ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. ABERCROMBY, in moving that the petition should
be printed, took occasion to state, that at every place where
this petition had laid for signature, sonic of the individuals
with whom it had originated had remained with it to sec that
it was signed by none but those who held houses at five pound*
per annum, and upwards. Where it was thought to have been
signed by improper persons, those names had been cut out,
even at the risk of sacrificing some of those who had a right to
remain. Out of ten thousand one hundred and sixty-eight
persons, who held houses at the rate described, six thousand
eight hundred and forty-seven had signed this petition. Such
being the fact, there was nothing to justify the remarks which
had been made on the numbers by which it was signed. If
this petition did not express the sense of the place front which
it came, why did not those who possessed all the patronage of
Edinburgh come forward with another petition, to prove that
he was wrong.
After a few words from Mr. KENNEDY and Lord Anon-
BALD HAMILTON,
Mr. GOULBURN begged to ask the Noble Lord oppo-
site if he would have any objection to postpone the motion of
which he had given notice, fora Reform in the Representation
of Scotland. It was in discharge of his public duty that he ask-
ed this question, and he was of opinion that it would be t'or the
convenience of the House, and for the public good, that it
should be deferred.
Lord A. HAMILTON wished to remind the House, that
in consequence of his postponing his motion last year, in com-
pliance with the wishesof Ministers, he had been disabled from
bringing it on in the course of the whole Session. When the
Right Hon. Gentleman stated, that it was only in the discharge
of his public duty that he called upon him to put it ofT, lie
begged to state, that it was only in the discharge of his public
duty that be (Lord A. Hamilton) persisted in bringing it on.
He had no wish to throw unnecessary obstructions in the way
of the business of the House. Let all the other motions, of
which notice had been given, be postponed, so that theyshould
stand in their present relative situations to each other, and he
should not object to it ; but why his alone should be picked out
to be postponed, was that which he did not exactly anderstapd.
The petition was ordered to be printed.
COAL DUTIES.
Mr. B. COOPER presented a petition from certain Railway
and Canal Companies, praying for a total repeal of the Duties
on Coals.
Mr. Alderman BRIDGES supported the petition.—Ordered
to be printed.
TITHES' COMPOSITION BILL.

Mr. V. FITZGERALD said, as the Tithes' Composition
Bill could not then receive proper consideration from the
House, he thought it would be desirable that it should be post-
poned. He had a particular reason for desiring this, as at
present another subject demanded the attention of those most
interested in it, he meant the representatives of the people of
Ireland.
Mr. GOULBURN had no objection to postpone the debate,
but he felt that unless some progress were made in the Bill, it
was not probable that they could get it through the House in
time to obtain for it the concurrence of the other douse of
Parliament. He therefore should feel it incumbent upon hin,
to begin at least to forward the bill through the Comnuttee.

SLAVERY IN THE WEST INDIES.
Mr. LEYCESTER presented a petition from the Inheti-
tants of the Borough of Shaftsbury, preying for the discon-
tinuance of slavery in the West Indies. Such a measure the
Hon. Gentleman thought notices important to the Whites than
to the blackst as with the existence of a free State like that of
St. Domingoin the neighbourhoed of our West India Islands,
It was impossbly to suppose that the system of slavery could

Q. What was the error which you discovered ?---A. The error
was this. The occurrences of the 14th December, in the in.
diettnent, were stated to have occurred in the foerth year of
the King's reign. 1 suggested that the fourth should be altered
to the third. . 1
Q. Did you do this without leave ache Court ?—A. I did
not do it.
Q. Who did it P—A. I pointed it out to the Solicitor, who
took it into his chamber, anddid it there.
Q. Why did he take it into his chamber?--A. I suppose that
he might not be seen.
Q. Nt'hy did he wish not to be seen P—A. I do not know.
Q. There was nothing to be ashamed of No.
Q. Why, then, did he wish not' to be yeen ?--[The answer
was inaudible-1
Q. It the bill had been found by the Grand JUry in the state
in which it was originally, do you believe the traversers could
have been brought up ?—A. I think not.
Q. Was any other alteration made at that tine P--A., No-
thing more.
Q. Then the alteration made was merely a matter of form ?
—A. Exactly so.
Q. There was no endorsement on the bills at that time ?—A.
Oh, no.
By Mr. Scalmt TT—Q. Was this before the Grand Jury
found the bills?—A. It was.
The examination of the witness was continued by Sir JOHN
STiYART. The following question, atter several others had
been put and answered in so low a tone that they could not be
heard in the gallery, was asked
Q.- Do you recollect that at the time these men were com-
mitted, a very awful sensation was created in Dublin ?
GOUIABUR.N reminded the Committee, that it watt
their duty to inquire into the conduct of the High Sheriff of
Dublin on the late occasion. lie would be the last man to op.
pose any evidence being given that could tend to throw light on
that Subject ; but he did not see that the question which litul
been put was other than irrelevant. He could not see how it
Sir. J. STUART briefly stated his reasons for putting the
possibly apply to the conduct of the Sheriff.
qcouteilsttlion.
The CHAIRMAN said, it was utterly impossible even for
agreater experience than himself at all times
thedraw
of
to M eriale strictmhue line with respect to the revelancy or irreve.
fancy of the questions. It was impossible to determine what
connection they might have with the subject under inquiry.
Where a serious doubt arose, he should endeavour to avail him.
self of the sense of the Committee.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS did not see that the question was irre-
levant.
Colonel BARRY said, he would confine himself as,much
as possible to questions that would bear on the conduct of
the Sheriff; but he berg -a to remark that one Ilonourable
Gentleman had expressed an intention of conducting the Corn.
mittee to an inquiry into the whole adtninistration of justice in
Ireland.
Mr. GOULBURN said he must object to such a course
being taken.
Mr. GRATTAN was understood to object also to that course,
as if it were pursued there would be no end to the labours of
the Committee.
Mr. SCA R.LETT thought the question which had been put,
did relate to the conduct of the Sheriff.
Mr. C. W. WYNN read the order of the House, which
directed a " strict inquiry into the conduct of the Sheriff of
Dublin." Ile was sorry to interrupt any Hon. Gentleman, as
it was impossible to tell with what view his questions were put ;
but it .would be for general convenience, that they should con.
fine themselves as much as they could, to that which directly
related to the conduct of the Sheriff, the inquiry into that hav-
ing been confided to them by the House, and they not being
authorised to enter into any other, without first calling for
further powers.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS was of opinion that to that object they
ought to confine themselves.
The CHAIRMAN said, undoubtedly the Inquiry would
he much shortened by confining themselves to the conduct of
the Sheriff.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH' egrerd that they might to confine
themselves to what related to the Sheriff; but many circum.
stances, bearing upon it but indirectly, might still be very ma-
terial. Ile was of opinion that the question which had been
put was irrelevant. The witness had been asked adiether there
was not a very awful sensation produced in Dublin. This was
asking what effect was producul on witness's mind. Circum-
stances, which had produced very particular sensation, might

Terence O'Reilly was then called, and after a short pause,
Sir R. HERON said —" Mr. Williams, Terence O'Reilly
is not to be found..—(A laugh.)
After the name of another witness had been called, Mr.
O'Reilly made his appearance, and stated that he was in the
profession of the Law, and had been an Attorney sixteen years,
ever since the year 1809 :—(a laugh)—bad resided in the City
of Dublin ever since. Was residing there when the Commis-
sion Grand Jury sat in January, ND. Remembers perfectly
when the Bills were sent up to the Grand Jury. Wain Court 1
during the first and second day of the inquiry, and frequently
saw Alr. Sheriff Thorpe there. Was present when he an-
nounced that the Bills were ignored, He announced it in the
office of the Cie* of the Peace, situated in the same house,
and adjoining to the Court. Witness was in that office at the
time ; there were a variety of persons always going in and re-
tiring, it being an office of public intercourse. At that parti-
cular instant does not recollect that, there were many
persons present. The conversation of Mr. Sheriff Thorpe
was chiefly directed to a Gentleman named 'Ward, who
was in the office. Knows nothing as to a relationship, but
is ante that there is a friendship' subsisting between him and
Mr. Sheriff Thorpe; and in consequence of that, as witness
supposes, the conversation was directed to him. Sheriff Thorpe
was in the office about three quartets of an hour before the
time when it was announced in Court .that the Bills were ig.
nored. He came into the office and said—" There will be no
Bills found; haven't I managed well ? The busitiess being
done, you need have no further fear." He was dressed in his
appointments as Sheriff, with his cocked hat and sword, and
took them off in the office. Mr. Macnamara, an Attorney, was
present at the time. It was impossible to state what other per-
sons were there, because it was a public office, and people
were continually coming in and retiring. Had mentioned four
persons as being present; Mr. Ward, Mr. Macnaniara. Mr.
Sheriff Thorpe, and himself. What he had stated waa said in a
loud tone of voice by the Sheriff. There might or might not have
been other persons present at the conversation ; there must have
been persons passing in and out. Knows Mr. Ward, and is known
by him ; does not recollect whether they bud any conversation
upon the subject after Wards. Mr. Ward did not go out of the of-
fice with Sheriff Thorpe. Never said he had spoken to Mr. Ward
about it. First mentioned this circumstance when the subject
began to be discussed. Does not recollect any particular time
at which he mentioned it, until he was applied to, to give evi-
dence upon another fact which he was not competent to do ;
then told Mr. Costello what he had heard. Mentioned this fact
to young Mr. Plunket, the Attorney-General's son, to the best
of his rececollection, on Monday or Tuesday last. Does not
say he was silent upon the subject till then, but does not re•
collect any particular occasion or person, when, or to whim
lie mentioned it. Believes be did mention it to many, hut can
not distinguish one. After hearing Sheriff Thorpe make this
building as thekluLfeWlisOffice, which is part of, the same
the Court, until hearing the news that the Graiid.:liTry into re
turned no bills. Thinks the time that elapsed was from three
quarters of an hour to an hour. Came here in consequence of
the order of the House, but left Dublin before the order reach-
ed, because young Mr. Plunkett had told him that he would
be wanted, and compelled to go. Was desirous not to leave
home, in consquence of pressing business ; but being obliged,
he came before the order was served, in order to get back us
soon as possible. Since arriving in town has been at WI hotel,
but does not remember the name of it; does not know exactly
where it is. Has not slept there, but at No. 5, Northumber.
land-street. lids had conversation Upon the evidence he in.
tended to give here ; spoke to a gentleman in the law upon the
subject toalay ; does not recollect his name.
Mr. BnowieLow.--Q. Should you know his name if I men-
tioned it ? A. Yes.
Q. Should you know him if you saw him P—A. I should.
Q. hook there—(Cries of " No, no !")—ls the name
Blake P—A. It is.
Q. Who told you to go to 31r. Blake ?—I called on Mr.
Plunkett this morning; and he desired me to go to Mr. Blake.
Q. Did Mr. Blake ask you questions upon the evidence you
were to give P—A. No • he told me that the shortest way would
be to wnte down the evidence I could give.—(Hear !)
Examined by Mr. llitonoitAai.—Q. Have you not lived in
Cotton-garden since you came to London?—( A laugh pre-
vented the answer from being heard.)
Q. Do you know Mr. Plunkett 2—A. I never spoke to him
before.
Q. You know some Members of this house ?—A. I have
the honour of knowing many Members.
• Q. Who do you know beit ?—A. I know Mr. Ellis best.
Q. Aye • 'that is Mast& Ellis, the 31emlier for Dublin ?
A. Yes.--(A. laugh.)
In continuation, the witness said he came here to giVe evi-
dence with reluctance; told Mr. CoSodlo so, and every body
who spoke to him about it; his voluntary coming here was in
consequence of knowing that the order of the House would
compel him. Has said he was an unwilling witness, and did
not tell Mr. Plunkett what he knew ; Mr." Plunkett bad heard
of it, and asked him if he could give such evidence; witness
told him he was certain of the truth of what he had said, but
could not attend to give evidence, because his buSiness would
not allow him. Alr. Plunkett said peremptorily. that be must
attend. Mr. Sheriff Thorpe came into the other in an exulting
manner ; thinks the bills were not then ignored, because the
Jury ,rnt into Court three quarters of an hour after.
This witness' was then ordered to withdraw, and Mr. Mama-
mare called and examined. Witness is an attorney. Knows
Sheriff Thorpe by person. When the Grand Jury. were sitting
upon the bills, frequently saw him in Court at various times in
the course of the day ; saw him in the Clerk of the Peace's
Office ; thinks it was between two and three o'clock. Dnes not
remember who was in the room; knows 31r. O'Reilly ; several
persons were in and out of the office all day : recollects Sheriff
Thorpe coming in while Cllr. O'Reilly was there. lie said
that the bills 'were ignored ; thatthere were no bills, or some.
thing to that effect. He addressed his remark to some fried
of his., whom witness does not know, hilt believes it was Mr
Ward. The Gentleman asked if die bills were come down from
the Grand Jury. The Sheriff said, " No ; but you may make
yourself easy as to the result." The Sheriff seemed well
uleased at it; thinks he went away almost immediately.—
' oes not remember how the Sheriff was dressed ; when he
was goir, Witneits went into another Office, and there was a
list of the Grand Jury ; some persons were looking at the list
at the time, and calculating how many Orangemen were upon
it. There were some names which he knew; some said
there were fifteen, and others seventeen. A conversation
took place a to those who were likely to throw out the
Bills, in coniequenc* of what had passed in the outer Of-
fice. Ilas mentioned this to a number of friends, and re-
mem'pers mentioning it to one in the Four Courts. . Can-
not name any person who was in the office it. the time,
because many were walking in and out. Thinks be was
in the Court at the time when the grand jury returned their
finding; believes it to have been an hour or better after the
Sheriff came into the office. Went with Mr. O'Reilly to Mr.
Blake ; they were both together with Mr. Blake at the same
time. Mr.slllake asked him the .particulars of the evidence
he could give, and he told him the same lie has told here; Mr.
Blake did not ask questions ; rather thinks he left them to tell
their own stories does not think he asked Mr. O'Reilly gave.
Liens ; believes'he told him to write down the evidence he could
give.
Mr. ItnowN•Low put the following questions to the wit-
ness i—g. Do you over recollect hating a conversation with

aitswesaaaraeka.sa.,. vamea...mrt she* Tilmo ; re
trials ; it was on the Tuesday ..after the not at t e .Jaitarie ,
sheriffspoke to Wm. Graham ; did not bear that conversation,
but heard the sheriff say, I have the Orange panel in my
bet;" heard nothing particular before this. Its young Mr.
S'ibthorp was passing out witness asked him " when these unfor.
tunate fellows would be brought to trial 'r" he made no answer;.
the Sheriff's remark was in a loud tone of voice. \Viii. Gra-
ham was one of the traverser*, and the Sheriff was near him ;
he was there when witness tined entered the room. Mr. Sibtliorp
is a painter anti glazier ; but is no,relation of Graham ; he is a
friend of Mr. Thorpe ; witness was aware of this 'at the time.
On examination by Colonel Banity..-;-The Sheriff left the
room at the same time as the witness. Heard no conversation
previous to the expression in question. Mr. Garret Waddat
ab,ented himself from Dublin ; does not know the cause of this.
Witness deals in the wholesale way ; no part of his stock be-
longs to Mr. Wadden. Was on good terms with Wadden when
this conversation took place ; is not now : has an objection to
state the cause of the quarrel ; never had any' conversation
with him about this. Was first called upon to give evitlete;e
by AVadden ; was first examined about this by Mr. --(name
inaudible), et his house; 'Wadden went with me. CoUld
not possibly be mistaken as to the expressions. There were
persons in the room who Might not hear them. No one was
nearer to the Sheriff than Graham. 'Witness was the next
nearest. Ile was about as far from witriess as witness is now.
irons the table. lie did not speak loudly. His tone was rather
low. All the persons were sitting at the time; witness also:
There were cards in the room ; but the Sheriff was not playing.
Did not sup that night at the Shakespeare.
By a Mr mut:rt.—The expression Seas not directed towards
Graham. Witness understood the meaning of it. Thought
the Sheriff acted us a party friend. Was certainly surFrized at
the expression.
By Mr. Goo I-MlNX—Can't say how-long the party had as-
sembled before witness went there. The Sheriff used other re-
markable expressions. One of them was, I wish the devil
had the Marquess Wellesley out of this." He made use..of
other expressions ; hut witness can't repent them. First com-
rnunicated the expressions OA the followmgday to Wadden anti
M‘Nally.
By Mr. Bitiowe—Doeit not know whether these facts were
communicated to the Attorney-General of Ireland before the
Trials. ,
By Mr. Ceires—The expressions about Lord IVellesle.y .
were heard by all the persons. They were uttered by the
Sheriff just as he was leaving the room. No remark was made
in consequence by any person present.
By Mr. BROWN Low—Graham is connected with some News.:
paper Office; did not know that he was then charged with asp
saulting the Lord Lieutenant ; heard that afterwards.
By Mr. BROUGHAM—About nine or ten persons altogether
were present.
The witness toes withdrew, and on the motion of Mr. JOHN
WLI.LIaMS,
•
Peter Tomlinson was re-called. He corrected a former state:
ment in his evidenee.—He had, in fact, seen Mr. Smith twice.
Does not know whether he was on the Jury.
After a short conversation as to going on or not, it was order,
est that William Poole should be called in. After abuse pause,
the CHAIRMAN informed the Committee, that he understta4
Poole could not attend, he having been injured by a fall from
the stage coach on his way to London.
Col. BARRY said he was given to understand that Poole
had been seen walking about the streets of London yesterday.
The Serjeant was then examined at the Bar, said ultimately
directed to proceed to No. 6, Downing-street, the present reai-,
dence of Poole, and command his immediate attendance.
Mr. GOLJI,BURN took the opportunity afforded bins by thi
pause. to give notice, that he should, on Friday next, bring the,
Irish Tithe tptest on before the House.
atroldspeideit
u,aashrOeUstatlhvOedl:,,,sittitire
Tax,l‘tr *well ‘e
'fiCeßwitats'era Pt or "o
re ed
de
ri ntg
instance of Colonel liannY, to call in anti examine Mr. Sheriff
Cooper.
Mr. Sheriff Conper was aceordingie called ht.
Mr. CA LeTA FT said, &at as the ( ittliant. Col. had suggest-
' ed the calling in of the Sheriff, he would probably examine him.
Colonel BARRY said, the Sheriff had been summoned by
the Hon. Baronet, the Member for Westminster.
Mr.
at
Tlie ~ll‘eAunfurtunattla jber ulsinwdetle°:fr Collected.observed,rttte (Siinla:tllilr:l) indisposition.
l'hwt Ift lo.4ll4leeotilan, proceededani infiwlee4o:—i9no; ibt
17na:tn
01411;italnlerjuisrr
reeloaftitvhoetotihtteric!l;reosfein)tuibniqi:itl.iryll; aciolloolecktsosntraicktiinvga

Tart In it. Mid so at the request of Mr. Sheriff Thorpe, lest
-scrie observations might be made upon him. Would not have
interfered without Mr. Sheriff Thorpe's request. The custom is
for one Sheriff to strike the juries one term, and the other for
•,.the Ibllowing term; and 'on this occasion it was Mr. Sheriff
Thorpe's turn. The witness felt responsibility with respect to
iirsdividuals returned to serve on juries.
Q. What is your situation in life ?—A. A coachrnaker.
Q. Mow long have you belonged to the Corporation of
DUblin ?—A. Seventeen years.
Did you offer any observations to the under-sheriff with re-
lpert to the names returned on the panne' ?—A. I did.
Q. To how many, and to whom ?—A. cannot exactly name
.-the number. _

Q. To whom ?—(A cry of " No, po !")
Thcwitness then stated, that the investigation of the pannel
-Oceupied an hour. From his general experience of grand
juries in Dublin, he considered the grand jury in question
respectable and competent to ilischarge the duty of jurors.—
He considered the persons respectable, and fit for the duty
they had to discharge. Many of the persons found in the pan-
nel had been commonly found on other panne's.
Examined by Col. IlsnitY.—Q. Were the individuals ob-
jected to by you, and struck off the pannel, objected to on ac-
count of political conduct ?—A. No.
Q. Did you feel in the investigation of the pannel by your-
self and your brother officer, that you had conscientiously dis-
charged your duty to the public as an officer in the cause of
justice ?—A. I did.
Q. What passed between you and Sheriff Thorpe on the
subject of a person who applied to be on the Jury P—A. I
thought, in consequence of his application, that he was not a ,
person fit to be on the Jury.
Questioned by a MrstnEit.—Q. Have you seen Sheriff
Thorpe in company with the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland since
,the striking of the panel P—A. Yes.
Q. More than once P—A. Yes.
Q. Did his Excellency receive Sheriff Thorpe as a public
delinquent—a public officer who had packed a Jury P—A. No.
Q. flow did the Lord Lieutenant receive him P—A. With
the usual distinction paid to the Sheriffs and Lord Mayor„
Colonel 11.annx.-44. Would Sheriff Thorpe have packed a
petty jury P—A. Certainly not.
Q. If you were told in company that Sheriff Thorpe said he
had packed a jury, would you bare believed it ?--A. I should
not suppose him capable of doing so.
Q. You gave a public dinner in Dublin. ?—A. Yes.
Q. Did you give the glorious memory ?—A. I did not. He
was not acquainted with the political sentiments of the persons
summoned. He was not an Orangeman. He believed Sheriff
Thorpe was not an Orangeman.
Examined by-31r. Gas.vret sr.—Q. Was Sheriff Thorpe the
first to give the obnoxious toast namely, the glorious inirnor-
tal memory P—A. I believe he gave that toast. The officer
served the summonses.
Examined by another blzstuza—Q. You have stated that
you objected to two or three persons on the pannel, and that
the objection was not of a political nature ; was it not for the
purpose of having the most respectable names P—A. It was
my object was to 'have the Grand Jury pannel filled by the
most respectable citizens of Dublin.
Q. You never made a question of any man's political prin.
ciples ?—A. No.' It was the first time he had filled the office
of sheriff.
Examined by Mr. PLUNKETT—Q. What is the ordinary
.course of returning the commission grand jury. Is it done by
the high sheriff, or the clerk in the office P—A. I think not by
the clerk.

Q. 'Mint is the ordinary course of returning the pannel of
the petty jury?—A. In ordinary cases the high sheriff makes
the return ?
Q. Does not the witness believe the persons returned in the
pannel were men of strong political feeling on the particular
question of dressing of the statue P—A. Some were, and some
were not.
Q. There had been an election of Corporators in December ?
—A. There was.
Q. Was there not a strong agitation in the public mind on
the election of those Corporators ? And had not the dressing
of the statue of King William been prevented by the Lord
Mayor ?—A. Yes.
Q. Was there not a censure on the Lord Mayor for doing
so P—There was.
Q. Were not the Corporators selected during the months of
December, when the censure was pronounced P—A. In some
Guilds there was elections.
Q. In the Guild of Merchants was there not a strong feel-
ing • —A. I believe there was.
Here Mr. PLualtce-r T produced a list, which was handed to
the witness. He believed the list was given to the guild of trier.
chants for the purpose of returning those names the most popular.
The witnsss read the bill. It was headed, ' Good men 'in
bud times." King William was represented treading on the
'knave of clubs, which was the Lord Mayor. The witness found
. seven of the names described good men in bad times, ItMollg the
persons sworn in the jury of January. The names were :—J. M.
Moore, Davy, Hicks, Adams, Lamprey, Graham, and Lodge.
Q. Did you believe good men, in bad times, were persons of
strong political bias P—A. I cannot Ray they had strong bias.
41,d'IrlIptirtlatt men to sit in a ury to try the question, oil find-
ing the bill of indictment?---A. I do.
Q. You only looked to the panne] to see they were fair
respectable citizens P—A. That was all. Ile should not ob-
. jest to any man of political bias unless he considered him a
violent man. He believed out of the 27 corporators returned,
some were desirous the statute should not be dressed. He could
not explain how the grand jury were chosen out of the first '23
on the list, unless it was to avoid fines. The witness framed the
pannel of the pettit jury froui the grand jury, with few excep-
tions. The sub-sheriff was not influenced by a violent party.
feeling. He did not consider him a man of high party-feeling.
The whole pannel consisted of 60, and 30 were returned by the
sub-sheriff; the witnEss selected men of character; lie could
not say they were high party-men ; alteration was made in the
, grand pannel; men were put from the bottom to the top of the
parinel, in consequence of their respectability. The witness
lied heard of a man named Stokes, a clerk to Alderman King;
. he never heard the sub-sheriff had altered the names on the
,petty jury at the request of Stokes. He did not believe the
-sub-there was capable of doing so. The witness had heard
that a Mr. Poole had taken a part in preventing the dressing
of the statue. Never heard Sheriff Thorpe say he could not
put Poole on the pannel, because he was a conciliator.
Examined by Colonel Banny.—Q. The jury were anxious
to attend under the fear of being fined In the present
ante of Dublin, it was impossible to find a grand jury who had
not formed an opinion on the dressing of the statue.
Examined by Mr. Hu otlOllA The election of Sheriff
weer promoted by Amicable Society P—A. He did not know
,of any understanding on the part of the sheriffs to be elected,
and those who were to recommend them. Ile bad been in the
-office seven months. The witness concurred with the Sub.
sheriff in the election of a keeper of the sheriff's prison. Ile
had not concurred in any other appointment.—The officers
were not changed with every sub-sheriff. Ile did not know of
any understanding between the amicable society and the
sr-lb-sheriff, that lie should keep certain persons in office.
The fees to the sub-sheriff amounted to 7001. a year, for which
lie accounted to the high sheriff. He had said he wished to
keep respectshie persons on the petty jury. With respect to
their political feeling, there wax no canvassing. He only dis-
cussed the respectability of grand and petty Jurors. The wit-
ness, at &dinner, had declined giving the obnoxious toast. In
consequence of that refusal, they behaved very rude to him.
Sir OttOncis limn examined the witness. He believed the
-people of Dublin had formed their opinion on the Catholic
Cksains. , lie did not consider any man favourable to the Catho-
lic Claims incompetent to sit on a grand jury.
Examined by Lord Dirvrotz.—The witness admitted that
some neo* were struck oft" the pannel and others substituted.
They did not come froM a list which lie had suggested.
Mr. It. Al .sler Ili examined the witness. Ile begged to know
whether the witness Meant to say it would be impossible to find
* Grand Jury in Dublin,-who had not formed an opinion on
the eubjecsof dressing the statue?
The question was considered irrelevant.
Examined by Mr. Goutuuurt.—When he met Mr. Sheriff
'Thorpe on the ouli*-t'a the panne!, he knew that persons were
to be tried for a riot in the Theatre. He knew a person named
Cullum to. be one of the persons to be tried ? lie did not know
that Mr. Moore, one of the Jury, was related to Cullum.
Extunined by itir. RICE.--The
witness had served on
term and grand juries. The Corporation of Dublin generally
served on grand juries. He served on a commission grand
jury three or four years ago. lie wished to avoid serving on a
commission grand jury. 'He could not say how many of the
Corporation of Dublin served on that jury. , He had heard
there was an anxiety to avoid serving on commission juries.
Examined by Mr. I ti ars:.—The witness having said, in con-
sequence of a letter from the Crown Office he went to Sheriff
Thorpe, and found lie had drawn out a list of the pannel, Ile
• (Mr. Hume) wished to. know what had become of the letter.
Here it was understood that a copy of the -letter was in the
House.
Ile wished to know the names of the corporators who applied
to be excused from serving on the jury.
The witness recollected Mr. Forster.
The witness had stated that lie did not consider the seven
Tames he had read to be :violent party-men. wished to
-know whether he considered Sheriff Thorpe a violent party-
man, or a moderate party-man ?—A. I should consider hhn not
a high party-man.
Q. Did you know one Wm. Carpenter on the jury P—A. I did.
Q. Do you consider him more a party-man than Sheriff
?—A . I know but little of Sheriff Thorpe.
Q. If Mr. Sheriff Thorpe had been on the Jury, would you
taw considered him competent to try the. defendants P—A. If