The Sun.
London, England, 1840-02-01 00:00:00

the unsullied glory of that great measure.—(Cheers.)
There was also an important clause, known and well re
membered as the 147th clause of the Church Temporali-
ties. Act,—( Hear, hear.) Having launched that clause
into existeriee, he then consented to its withdrawal.-
-( Hear, hear.) I think I can likewise remember, Sir,
a celebrated Arms 1311—(Hear, hear)—ivhich was intro-
duced by the Noble Lora'; and on the Bth of the same
month he stated that be had received several communica-
tions from Irish Members, and that, in submission to their
opinion, he had been induced to abarefort the clause pro-
viding that persona possessing unregistered arms should be
------''''" liable to transportation—( Hear) though." at the same
sensible injury to the public service. But my Noble Friend time the Noble Lord said, "he did net think these were
did not anticipate that there would not be necessarily raised time when precautionary measures as to the importation and
a point of difference. When the present Ministers abandon possession
of arms should berelaxed."e--( Hear, bear. )4le,
opinions, then on them will be the responsibility, it will like his successors, can abandon measures which he yet
be for them to account for the abandon bent; and if it thinks of vital importance to the country's • welfare.—
should appear that it has taken place on improper grounds, ( Hear, hear.) But
what was the, view 'which the Right
or impure motives, then on them will be the shame of that Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamwortii, took of this
abandonment. But that those things take place my withdrawal ? Concordes aninii nunc—(The loud cheep-
Friend and every other Honourable Gentleman ing that followed render-ed the rest of the quotation so in-
for whose verdict they cared will reserve their condemna- distinct that we could only collect its happy import—which
tion. True, the present Government have some (pen was, that " though such sworn ' friends now, time was
questions, and this is one of the fearful engines cf attack when they were as energetic foes.")—The Right Hon.
directed against us from the opposite side, an accusation Baronet said, he, considered the course which the Noble
we quietly adMit, because it is not in our power to deny. Lord had taken most improper—ill first bringing forward a
If to make the Ballot an open question, if we are measure without due consultation, and then in abandoning
not prepared to lay down modifications on the Corn-laws, it without discussion.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Now',
I admit, if those two circumstances deprive us of the eon- Sir, as to the Noble Lord's animadversion on the adoption.
fidence of the House, then this vote may go against us. of the Penny-post, lam willing, if be pleases, without fur-
And I may here remark, in passing, that I think there ther discussion, to go to the country, or to the House.—
lurked in the two speeches we have beard from the Right (Ironical cheers from the Opposition.) Supposing even
Hon. Baronet and the Noble Lord, some intention on their it should be necessary to impose some other tax,
1 Am quite
own part of proposing certain alterations in the Corn-laws willing to take the responsibility of having concurred in a
as they.at present existed.—( Hear, hear.) I admit that. measure tedueiog postage to one penny for all her.34l-
they said that they should always 'obtain- protection jesty's subjects.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord said tt 0 t
for the. agriculturists, and that they Should also advo- wits .regard to the Chartist insurrection, the Govermneak
mite a graduated duty.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Now 'had vaunted itself on .the abpenee of prosecutions.::- If '
undoubtedly a graduated duty is a material ingredient in the Noble Lord had attended to. ' the; ;speech of iny-- Hon.-
the principle !of the present Corn-laws; but I very much Et iend the Under Secretary - ' for the ;lamp Department.
question whether a great many of those who sit behind the (Mr. F. Maule), a speech. containing is much,- if not
, Noble Lord would not think the amount and proportion of more, of pertinent matter than any other sp-iech on either.
the scale a very material element in the consideration of side of the House —( Hear, hear)—the Noble Lord would
the question.—( Loud cheering.) But I own, Sir, I think have found that if there was anything on which the Ga-Tola
it is somewhat preposterous to hear so great a cry made vernment " vaunted '' itself, it il'a on the I;nurritterunnd.,
of an open question upon the benches opposite from those success of the prosecutions—(Hear, hear) —for my . 5
persons, and this does not apply so much to the Noble Friend informed the House that out cif 290•probseeceuntioonb_
Lord and the Right Hon. Gentleman as to the main bodyof i which had been instituted, 232 convictioos had
lr and ber-Ma-
their supporters, aho for upwards of a score years made not tained. I am not dissembling from m.l'ae-• •
the question of a preference between open and secret voting jetty's Ministers do not; dissemble from
sr to the
—not the question of the "bread that perisheth," but the grievous and lamentable character attac!ein.,
~,___,.
themselves,' the:
question as they themselves have been,at all times telling Chartist attacks and Chartist insurrections. ,
.(,77_r_
us was in their opinion one that went to the welfare, and hear.) Her Majesty, in the famous speech vtNa,nol'es."
' even the existence of the Protestant religion, an open addressed to this House at the commencement of the
5.q,
question.--(Cheers.) Perhaps, Sir, this is akin to the po- sion, expressed how deeply eh e depl 'red the exces
)icy which has endeaveure - with the exception of a short which had stained and disgraced seta- ral
paittintresissinesstie specc
,01 ttie, . JitisbteLord,-to • keep country, and tbc treasonous practices which nier incarred
st onions of the_
the whole subject of religion most einworitedry arid- at.: the recent condemnation of the law. lris plain the. 7, will
...
most for the first time, out of all view in this discur- arise excesses which rwrGovernment can at ell tinies•anti
slots —( Hear, hear.) I shall take the liberty of adverting cipate, and that they cannot be enede at all times respon-
to that point before I conclude, and :also to the justice of sible for the traitorous spirit which gives rise to the overt
the pretensions which the Noble Lord has put forth as to act. It is to the spirit with which they encounter •those
the Gentlemen who sit around and behind him, lamentable crimes when they do occur, that their reapon-
that they constitute one great individual party.--( Hear, . sibility mainly attaches, and will not go over the ground
hear.) Now the Noble Lord says, besides assuring us which I think was so successfully trod by my Hon. Friend
that he and the gentlemen who sit around hie-, are ready the Under-Secretary for the Hoele'Department, in con-
to undertake the Goveinment—he tells us that if they trasting the conduct of the present Government with the
lose the vote of to-night (and here I think that lie fully Government who held the reins of power in 1817, 1518,
expressed a coincidence of opinion with the Hon. Mem- I and 1819, bit I cannot on this subject refrain from reading
ber for Droitwitch, who regrets that the question was not an extract from a letter which I have received from a dat I
brought forwerd last year, because he thinks they intelligent gentleman who is intimately conversant,with the
'might have carried . such a vote), while he is very spirit which exists in the manufacturinw and discontentedpari
Cautious in giving an opinion as to the issue of the of the country. As Ido not ive the gentleman's name I i
present measure—and I may be allowed to expresso hope that cannot ask the House to attach any ate hority to the letter
every succeedingyear vve shall becomestronger andstrongcr except what may he attached to the opinions. • He' sign
,1
and that we shall grow in favour as in year's—he tells us that " during the new Poor-law, the Ten Hours' Billaa_
that besides being ready to undertake the Government, if the Chartist agitation, Government have acted with that 4
they should be foiled in the present assault, the course combined moderation and firmness which eminently be- -i
that would be pursued will be to watch, direct, control, and conies a conscientious Government. Their forbearance
obstruct the Government.--( Vehement cheering.) has been wise. We have seen demao:ealte after deinagogne.l
Lord -STANLEY made au observation across the table. expire, and combination after combinationcombinationbreak ti amid is
, • Lord MOR PETH—Therre were the words, for I took the quarrels of its members and public scorn w e !fad the 1
-them down at the time..-(Cheers,) The great climax late National Convention'as a proof of this. Hall the Go-
ended, after saying that he should watch, direct, and eon- vernment been more disposed to punish. the Chartists '
0,01, with. the .word. " obstruct."—(Loud cheering.) would have been more malignant ; but as it is, the Cwher.-
lanust- say I do not doubt. either their talents or their fist orators have not dared to charge the Government_tselt:,
good•will in:that department--; they have already frequently tyrannical conduct. Thus when Government has 111. CI
tried their hands at-. it with- considerable suCcess, and have fared it has carried public feeling entirely with it, which' is
repeatedly found many .andenost valuable auxiliaries else- would not have done, had it previously put down poptil.ar‘;,
where in the good work —4Cheers.) The Noble Lord meetings, and enacted laws restrictive of liberty." T.laf
has.furtherwaid thatebe Goiernment lays claim to the con- Noble Lord has dared to come upon that ground upon which
fidence-ofahe public,. notsforwbat it has done, but for what it I was anxious not to interfere, and has asked whether the
has tindertakemto do. Ido not mean to-deny that the Go- present Ministers have the confidence of Ireland. --(Hear,
vernment . has-.proposed: .and introduced inany measures hear.) The Noble Lord asks whether the Government
which they .have not been able ,to carrys--( Loud cheer- have the confidence of Ireland, and he asks of what parties
ing : from the Opposition.) : Whether the - principle in Ireland have they the confidence. Perhaps I may say
of.obstruction which, in those cases, was brought into play, the different parties in Ireland are divided into three sec-
was always dictated by public spirit, could always be justly tions. The Ultra-protestant—the moderate Libsral party, referred to patriotic motives, or always ended in the public and there is the great bulk of the High Catholic. The I
good, Wirt net for me to decide; no doubt it has been highly present GoVernment does not possces the confidence of ,
detrimental to: the best Interests of the public-service, but the Ultra-Protestant party. Mr. Dawson, on •the 24th
this result is. noes° much to 'be attributed merely to the of January'', 1834 when the Noble Lord opposite had been
demerits of the Government, or to those of an opposite two-years Secretary for Ireland; began his observations
,opinion in politics, as to The balanced state of parties— thus :—" Ireland is in.' truth without a Government."--
( Hear, hear)—and I greatly question if the substitution (Cheers from the Ministerial side.) That was when, 1
of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite in the place of ourselves suppose, Ireland was panting and languishing for what
:would effect much in this Particular,—( Loud cheers.) might be called a Government. " There is not a real Govern-
Bnt yet this Government, with a scanty majority in its merit; life is at stake. Certainly these are objects of alit-
favour in, this. House, and anaenormous majority against nation and disgust to Protestants. I do not think' ,
it in the other House of Parijament, has introduced and there is a person of the least judgment in the country
passed measures of the greate# magnitude andimportance. who can justify the Government in the conduct they have
—(Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches.) I may keen pursuing for the last two months? I think the con-.
mention the measure for the Reform of the Corporations duct pursued by the Magistracy is disgraceful to the Cie.
as one of these. I may refer to the measure of the Corn- vernment." I will read a single remark from Sir R.
mutation of English Tithes—(Cheers from the opposition) Batcson, Member for Londonderry :—" It seems that both
—aided and assisted, Ido not deny, hy,nten of all parties ; parties, Protestant and Catholic, are disgusted with the
but I put it to the House whither on a .subject of such present Gevernment ; the only persons who are not so are
vital importance there was ....!ever exhibited—( Immense the dependants at the Castle of Dublin, who, I need
cheering frore the Opposition4which drowned' thcOoric:u- hardly observe, form but a small portion of the
people of
sion ofthe sentence.) At all events it is the first Govern- Ireland."—(Cheers.) "The conduct of the Irish Govern-
ment who ever encountered the difficulties of this quest ment has disgusted the thinking portion of the peoplesef
tion—who- eTele.Ciitstea' thvongh_Papliame,n.torauggested Ireland—tt is not, however, a struggle for Protestant
to the attention of Parliament—which I contend is the on.y ascendant but for Popish ascendancy. The liopOlstiPli
proper mode of settling the question—a compulsory are armed one party against the other, and the cominlinis
settlement in contradistinction to a voluntary one; and to cations of the Magistracy are disregarded; there is nonne
have further carried a measure which, in my opinion, in its swer but a contemptuous silence. "—( Hear, hear.) Then
deep and pregnant consequences, outweighs centuries of we come to the next party, and I ask, do we not possess
ordinary legislation, whether those consequences be for the confidence of the bulk of the Catholic party, who are
good or whether they be for evil; and from all the infer- the bulk of the people of Ireland ?_(Hear, hear.)
mation I can obtain I verily believe they will be for good— I think I need hardly ask the question.—( Hear, hear.)
I mean, the establishment of a system of Poor-laws in Is it the moderate liberal party? Is it the party beaded
Ireland.—(lmmense cheering.) And this I mention in by a long list of noblemen and gentry ? Is i.. such men as
reply to the taunts of the Noble Lords opposite, that the the Duke of Leinster, the Earl of Charlemont, the Earl of
Government has been unable to carry any measure of ire- Munster, the Earl of Meath, Lord Carew, or many others
portance ; and in reply I mention measures not of transie that I might name--( Loud cheers)—but I have stated
tory or trivial importance, but measures the effects of these because they are all men who were honoured with
which will be felt for ages yet to come.—( Loud cheers.) the friendship, and responded to the hospitalities of the
Nor will I omit the consideration of the Irish Tithe Bill, Noble Lord, the Viceroy of Ireland.—(Cheers.) Now,
but most distinctly avow my participation, and shrink not I take it upon me to say, that this party, and those men
from participation in any thing contained in the Appropria- who reposed confidence in us would withdraw it from the
tion Clause. I think it a misrepresentation to say. that the Noble Lord opposite.—( Hear, hear.) I want the House
Government of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) and the country, to determine whether it is that a change
was displaced merely on account of the Appropriation has come upon the principles and conduct of the Noble
Clause. The opposition with which the Government of Lord, or upon the principles or conduct of those indepen-
Right Hon. Gentleman was met, and the difficulty by dent and high-minded men, whose names I have just given
which its whole course was impeded, extended for the to the House ? ( Hear, hear, hear.) It certainly
whole duration of that Government. And the reason we has occurred from the whole course of the debate,
thought the Right Hon. Gentleman ought not, with all his both from the speeches that have been made, andirom the
high qualifications, to be Prime Minister of this country, absence of the Speakers.—( Hear, hoar.) That the aft
was that, with the principles he professed, he did not corn- fairs of li eland have been far less prominently brought
mand a majority, either in the House of Commons which forward upon this than almost any other topic, or upon
he dissolved, or that which he assembled; and I think that almost any previous occasion. At this forbearance I own,
if the same state of things should arise at present, and an whatever gratitude or pleasure I may feel, I feel no sur-
abiding majority of this House should declare on the side prise. They have undoubtedly been passingly and slightly
of the Right Hon. Baronet, he would be justly and lame- alluded to, and indeed they could not be wholly omitted in
diately entitled to succeed to our places. But with re- a question which has for its object and substantive matter
specs to the Appropriation Clause, I think that if there the general conduct of the Government, and the general
was a principle just, wise, and politic, it was contained in state of the country. But prominently mild unceasingly as
that Clause—( Hear, hear)—which we introduced into the the affairs of Ireland have been brought forward on all
Tithe Bill ; and we, moreover, declared that no Bill previous occasions, in any way affecting the general cha-
for the settlement of the Tithe Question would be ratter of the Government, and which is now formally art
satisfactory without it For four successive years we did reigned for its entire conduct and policy, however it
our best to carry the House with us in that view, but we may be the clue on the other side to pass it over slightly
failed to do so. I admit the failure, the abandonment and gingerly now, Ido feel that I cannot refrain from ad-
of the Appropriation Clause, and the inconsistency with our verting briefly to that topic. And connected as lam with
previous declaration. What was the motive which led us to the Government of Ireland, and having to take a large
adopt this course? It was to avoid revolution and further share in its concerns, I may say here that I take no shame
bloodshed in Ireland, and to secure peace to that for the present state of affairs in that country.—(Cheers.)
country.--( Hear, hear.) I find I stated at the same time When the concerns of Ireland have been previously the
of the motion of the Hon. Member for St. Albans, " that aubject of discussion in this House (although I trust I
after the unsuccessful attempts of four successive years it never improperly shrunk from repelling any aortas which
became our duty to do our best to terminate the agitation, I conceive to have been unjustly made upon me, or from
collision, and estrangement of the clergy, Catholic and stating my opinions upon the actual state of affairs there),
Protestant, without risking further bloodshed by the set- it so happens that I never originated any boast, nor
Clement of the Tithe question in Ireland," and I added, ever challenged any credit for the comparative state o
"as far as the interests of Ministers is concerned it would tranquillity for the time being. I felt bow much there
Probably be better for them to leave it in the same state as was that could not be referable to the mere agency of any
during the last three Sessions of Parliament, but the point Government, or the conduct of its ministers. I felt how
to consider was, whether it was for the good of the people many disturbing causes were always at work, as in such .
of Ireland so to leave it." At that time there was no re- a composition and state of society in Ireland always wil,
strance or rebuke directed against us for the course we be, where the speculations of the one day will be over-
then adopted. from the other side of the House ; on the thrown by the results of the next. --(Loud cheers.)
contrary. What were the words at that time of the However, Sir, whatever may be the issue of the present
Right Hon. Baronet the Member fur Tamwortli—e I motion, or whether it will have the effect of transterriug
am not about to censure the course which the the Government to other hands: be that soon or late,
Noble Lord has so manfully taken; a course, I think, I can only say that I can form no fonder wish either
the best adapted, looking at the difficulties with which this for the sake of our own reputation, or for the sake of
great question is surrounded in Ireland, to secure the the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, or, I trust, what I value
peace of that country."—( Hear, hear.) Contrast the more than either, for the sake of Ireland itself—l can
tone of these declarations with those of the speech of the form no fonder wish than that the discharge of thestoduties
Noble. Lord and the Right Hon. Baronet last night.— may be as useful and as satisfactory in their hands, as I
(Hear,hear.) Did they not represent the conduct which candidly believe they are in ours.—( Cheers.) The Hon.
the Right Hon. Baronet had described as manful, as the and Learned Member for Coleraine, who is, perhaps, the
very climax of giving up our honour ?—( Hear, hear.) only Member who has addressed himself to the Irish part
We find in the conduct of those who constantly opposed of the question, stated that he would not question any
us a difference, a very wide difference, from that of the part of the conduct of the Government till within the
Noble Lord and the Right lions Baronet, but then, to he period of the last six months, and that he would put aside
sure, they always sat opposite us, and have never crossed all returns and official documents Sir, I shall be glad to
over from our ranks.—( Great cheering,) The Rih,.. t.,1i0,
Hon. Baronet says that the adoption of the measure se- ' v him i that example. I.3ut' the question upon a
asure se- motion like this, is main principles and bread results.
cured the peace and contentment of Ireland.—(llear, That is the policyl wish to pew to issue, and un which I
hear, and cheers.)
Well, then, such being the case, wish to call fora Hear,verdict.—(hear.) No doubt, if
I shall never repent the part I havthe giving up the principle I did—( Hear e
h
. • , rar)--and I
t i ea, or there was a laborious ransack. nt? the proceedings
will leave the other side to enjoy the triumph, if such they
compelled the Government —of
wrongatitlongin.years, irregularities arid mistakes ma be found
wson may have been appointed a chief constable,
consider it, of having
( Hear, hear.) The Noble up that principle.— to give or a Wrong
it'
may have been let out of prison—(A
present state of Ireland is beyond
touching on these points of Lord, after laugh)—but 1
" • L d ' ) 1k • 'tone
Policy, condescended to - k all precedent tranquil—( ou cheers)—if rs —1 the key-stone
on the subject of Irish railways. I certainly admit Zeta i of our policy is, as I conscientiously believe it to lie, the
did bring forward a proposal on the subject lastwhich impartial administration and vigorous enforcement of jus-
I expected would be adopted b Parliament. ve:srtliongt Lice between all creeds end parties, and an anxious and
Imustconfess suc-
its benefits so manifest, and the yobjections so slight, that persevering—although
it would secure a general acquiescence, but in that I was cessful—endeavour to raise Irishmen in point of rights and
disappointed, and it was very much at the concurrence and privilege.; to an equality with their Britieli fellow-subjects
at the suggestion of those who sit on the same benches _if that the state of Ireland wet the guiding principles
with the Noble Lord that I consented to withdraw that and spi it of our policy has been such, I must say that I feel .
measure till the present Session. But then the Noble proof to all your sneers and clamours, and I leave every- i
I
Lord makes it a matter of charge, when I was asked, the thing else to the appreciation of a liberal and intelligent
other night whether I intended to renew the subject in this people.—( Loud cheer!, ) Sir, I observe that the rpeestior, i
Session, when I stated that that depended on the prospect lof the withdrawal of troops from Ireland seems to giv( -
of support I should receive from the other side of time particular umbrage to the benches opposite. How-
House.
What would the Noble Lord have had me say? ever, it' the House will bear with ley just chun.crating !
Would he have me say that I would introduce no such them and the numbers withdrawn, I shall not trouble I
measure, when I firmly believed it was calculated to do iit long. The return in my hand gees back I
great good, provided only we could carry it ?—(llear. ) I a good many years, hat perhaps it will be ruffs- 1
Sir, I should have thought the Noble Lord would have 1 cient to begin with the year after the services of the ,
been more inclined to show indulgence to abortive propo- I yeomanry were dispensed with. The last year they wen' i
sitions.—( Hear, hear.) I think I can remember a loan I employed was in the year 1831, when there was of reguls: i
of 15,000 0001. saceday converted into a gift of military troops, 16,000, and of yeoroaney 27,000, making
20,000,0001.—( Hear, hear)—though I can sincerely say i a total of 44,000 race. In the subsequent year the services
I hope the Noble Lord may to the end of his days wear of the yeomanr; were dispensed with, and I find that inn