The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-26 00:00:00

the House of Peers, had stated that by making these the
grounds of concession—by giving the fear of civil war as the-
ground of making the ground of concession—thev did give
great encouragement at all future times to. men in Ireland to
form combinations and associations dangerous to the country,
in order to obtain any ulterior objects they might have in view.
That was the statement of the Noble Lord, who differed
from him entirely in politics, respecting the support which
the then Government had given the agitators by conceding the
Catholic claims on those grounds. That had been said, not with
respect to her Majesty's present Government, but with respect
to the Tory Government, one of the chief members of
which now taunted him, with giving encouragement to agita-
tion and concession.—(Loud cheering.) He would, however,
do the Government of that day the justice to say that what
they did give at that time, they gave it frankly and candidly.--
(Cheers.) With respect to the measure for disfranchising the
40s. freeholder, to which-the Right Hon: Baronet alluded, he
(Lord J. Russell) had always felt the strongest repugnance to
that measure, and he remembered th it at that time the pre-
sent Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (Lord Ebriugton) and him-
self came up to town together for the purpose of opposing
it. But in proposing the change from the 40s. franchise to
the 101. the manner in which that measure was to'be carried
into effect. had been stated in the way most likely to conciliate
the support of the friends of popular privileges.
The person who claimed it was to go before the Assistant
Barrister, he was there to claim in resp ct of the 101., and if
the Assistant-Barrister admitted him, he became, for eight
years, possessed of thefranchise, but he was rejected if the
Bat rister thought he had not made out his claim, but th. n
there was an appeal, for the party might go before
a Jury as to fads, and before a Judge as to the law.
and if he succeeded, he remained eight years. What was
proposed now ? He begged the House to- recollect that it was
proposed to take away that power, it was proposed to tax the
voter by continually herraesing him ; it was proposed, instead
of granting him the franchise for eight gears, that he should
not have it for three months, and that he should be obliged to
go to the• registry every year. He was now answering the
charge cf a breach of faith—if there was any breach of faith, it
was in the proposal of the Noble Lord.—(Cheers.) By modes
of this kind they might most effectually destroy a franchise.
—(Cheers.) The Attorney-General had- told them some
time ago that with regard to the Court of Chancery, no man
could go into that Court, unle:s the subji ct of dispute exceeded
1001. Now he would suppose that a man had a claim for 10/. ;
if he was told that he must go into the, Court of Chancery to
obtain it, 'he would be deprived of his rights, and that was what
n-as proposed by the Bill of the Noble Lord the Member for
Lancashire. It was the bringing in of the Nob:e Lord's Bill
that made it necessary for him to go into the whole
case, and when he proposed to do that, as he
thought he was bound to do in faith to the
.people of Ireland, he thought he was bound. to give them as
good a ft anchise as was intended for them in 1829.—(Cheers.)
That was a proposal made to a people that were disturbed, and
he would not take it away from a people that were in tran-
" quillity.—(Hear hear. )" That was a franchise granted to those
who agitated and threatened,. and he wonld -nut take it away
from men wLo were loyal and obedient.—( Cheers.) He was
speaking now of the proposal that was made by the Noble Lord
on the other side of the House, and he affirmed that when the
Noble Lord proposed that Bill the people of Ireland were in a
state of tranquillity; they were making progress in peace and
prosperity ; their prosperity was increasing, and the
whole cause which had created the agitation was the
'introduction of that Bill.--(Loud cheers.). If, therefore,
that was a Bill to take away the franchise, and to destroy it, he
must consider the whole question. The Government had en-
deavoured last year to see if some Bill could not be introduced
to regulate the franchise, and for doing that they were told
they were defending fraud and perjury, and because they did
not choose to enter upon the subject in. the way the Noble
Lord proposed, they were told that they were promoting per-
jury. Last night they were told they. were defending fraud
and eesjury. With regard to all questions of this kind upon
which the present Government held different opinions from the
other side of the House, it was expected, and it was found
in many instances impossible to carry , their views into
effect, and that being the case it was thouglat better to wait
sometime and proceed with other measures upon which party
violence would net be excited. There were questions of great
interest regarding the administration of the laws, with respect
to the poor, the administration of justice, and the commercial
interests of the country—all these questions might be discussed
.without party feeling, and the more exciting party question it
was determined should be left to time. 'lhe present Govern-
ment had been continually reproached with not bringing for-
ward measures which they thought right for the extension of
popular rights, and it was said that they were losing
ground by such conduct.. His answer to that was that it
was thought better to proceed practically with mea-
sures that were of some service, and leave others
to time. In a party point of view, that was an inexpedient
course, but, with a view to the interests of the country, lie
thought it was a prudent course. But could they pursue it
longer? Were they to be accused, day after day, and night
alter night, of attempting to screen perjury and fraud, and not
to declare what their opinions were, by introducing measures
on the subject? They were then obliged to look
into the franchise, and to endeavour to legislate upon it.
He had been convinced by the statements made last year by
the Hon. Member for Mallow, that they never could obtain a
satisfactory criterion of the franchise, unless they sought for it
out of the averment and assertions of the parties themselves.
It was evident if they took the more liberal and extended view,
he did not of course mean to give any opinion as to the legal
view of this question, but if they took the more liberal and ex-
tended view, it was obvious that the man who could loose
nothing by gaining a franchise, who was subject to no burthen,
and who had a very small amount of property, might
}et have witnessses who might assist him in putting
his claim upon the register, and no other consequeace follow
from it than that if he succeeded he would be entitled to vote,
and if he did not succeed he would not be entitled.—( Hear,
hear.) The criterion which they proposed to take, and which,
upon the whole, seemed to him the best, was some criterion to
be taken from the Poor-rate. Last year he had consulted
a high authority upon this subject. That gentleman, Mr.
Nicholls, had told him at once that he thought it very desirable
that the Poor-rate should be taken as a criterion, and he re-
ceived a letter from him dated 24th Aug , in which he said that
upon reflection he had been still more confirmed in that opinion.
He was very strongly in favour of adopting the Poor-law
valuation as a criterion of the elective franchise. Well, then,
taking that criterion, they proposed to take with it a certain
tenure by lease—a tenure greater than that of the old 40s.
freeholds, because those freeholds had often depended upon
the lives of very old people. They proposed to take a term of
fourteen years, and they proposed to take a rating of the value
of 51. They took that rating of the value of Si. because they
found from all the authorities that the general custom was to
undervalue. They found by the Reports submitted to the
Moose that many of the present freeholders who had then the
right of voting would be disfranchised by. the measure
of his Noble Friend. There were several unions mentioned
in which persons who at present had the right of voting with the
present 101. franchise would be deprived of that right under the
proposed system. He thought it essential to have a tenure,
arid also to have a rate; because when they had the tenure
they kept the principle of the county franchise, and when they
had the rating, notwithstanding all that had been stated on
that subject, they had a property liable' to a burthen. The
Noble Lord in the course of his speech at the commencement
of that discussion, had shown a great many things, and he
had certainly shown a great many contradictory things.—
(Cries of " Hear, hear. ) At one time he showed that
there would be a class of persons in the most miserable
state of wretchedness ; but at another :time he showed
that they would be possessed of four or five acres of land, very
good clothes, and also very good food.—(Hear, hear.) ,Of
course with respect to the amount of Si,, and with respect to
the duration of fourteen years, those were matters to be dis-
cussed and decided upon in Committee.—( Hear, hear.) The
question, then, to be considered was, whether in settling this
matter of the future registration of Ireland, the franchise
should be based upon the present definition, or upon some new
critericer.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) With regard to the
present criterion, he certainly, was a good deal surprised when
he heard the arguments-of the Hon. and Learned Member,for
Exeter. The proposition of that Hon. Member was that they
should keep a criterion which was in itself doubtful, and upon
which contrary opinions had been held by persons of very great
eminence, some giving so lax an interpretation, that persons
who, he must say, appeared to him to be not at all entitled to the
franchise had obtained it ; others giving so strict an interlire•
tation, that in one union, out of one hundred and thirty
claimants four only were allowed to vote.—(Hear, hear.)
Why, this was an immense political question—(Hear, hear)
—and how did the Noble Lord the Member for North Lan-
cashire propose to solve it ? He did not propose to solve it at all,
but he left it to the decision of the Judges Why, that would
be to leave the matter in doubt. "No," said-the Hon. Mem-
ber for Exeter, " you don't leave the matter in doubt, because
you are -aware there is a majority of Judges on one side, and a
minority on the other, and the minority ought to submit to the
opinions of the majority." Whoever heard of such a way to
establish the franchise ?—( Hear, hear.) In the first
place,' it was a very great evil that the Judges
should have to decide upon matters which were stridtly
connected with politics • but it would be a -much greater evil
for the Judges to control the authority of that House.—( Hear,
hear.) It would also give rise to imputations upon the Judges
that they used their influence to obtain a majority for their
own party.—( Hear, hear.) He could not conceive any thing
more mischievous than that Judges should be forced to swerve
from the course of ditty their consciences dictated, because of
reflections thrown out against them in that House.—( Hear.)
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, as was to be expected
from him, spoke in very measured language, but what were
tgh, ell:
hs
ajtocommentsufdtghineesen,,_m partya:de upon hitopposite.
do f
some t the ptuhbalti c
day,
wherein the Judgeser Judicial
raiseditehiea l minoritymtion or
tishtvyeer were
against
nn calledcsht tthhiene "
°llar'weC°l'at—nnd-
for no other distinction than&ethatNefor yearse they had been
Popish political partisans,"
which they were to leav die. law
Was this
tthhiiss thethe waywa inm
which such men as Chief Baron and Baron Richards—men of
high reputation and of great learning, were to be spoken of ?
were they to have their good name taken away, and Justice
degraded in their persons, in order that they (the Opposition)
great might get a decision in their favour on the polio-
cal cal question of the franchise ?—(Loud cheers.) If they
chose to take away the franchise, ldt them take it if
' they would or could, but do not let them use the balance of
justice for that purpose.—(Loud cheers.) These were the
reasons why he-thought it necessary in the present state or
those affairs, the Noble Lord opposite having persuaded a ma-
jority of the House to read his Bill a second time in the last
session—these were the reasons why he thought it necessary
that the whole question should be considered, and why lie
thought the Bill of his Noble Friend was founded in policy
and Justice.—(Loud cheers.) It would free them from the
difficulties of the franchise—amendthepresent state of the
lair, and let it be administered without disparaging the bench.
was
ttooldbehythtehefaßctigthhtatlithoen.coßnarstoi--
Bshuotultdhebne
foundhe
much diminished—that if the landlords
net, (Cheers.)
that if i t
utuseedntthbeoidry
such a manner as to deprive their tenants
hear.) But how long
H
plovwaserveinry
had been had to the re-
of their votes, then a time wo(uld_earcor,ne when it would be pro-
per to consider the question.
were they to wait ? Much reference h_
had not been laid on
returns yet, because they
h would be found
turns for 1840. He held in his ands, certainly not official
the. table ; but he believed 1 ey
the numb( of
gave.2._
)
correct; and if so, already a very large diminution had taken
place. The returns for Tipperary for 1840
(Cbeers.
the constituency at 4,143. It was now 2,46
Cork, in 1840, 5,738 ; now 3,785.
Waterford, 1,675 ; now
783. Wicklow, 2,340 ; now 1,580. Lonaord, 1,971 ; now
949. Making altogether in these five counties a diminution
from 15,876 to 9,426. These results were got from statements
made in the House which would soon be laid upon
the table, but besides that was the fact that there was a growing
unwillingness among the landlords of Ireland to grant such
leases to their tenants, as would enable them to obtain the
franchise ; that was a sufficient cause for a great diminution.
Yet hi the face of all'these facts they were told that they might
w indeed
the
adieteudntuiln thetil meveinl hid become still grea. ter, and then would
time to consider the question. They might wait
were disgusted with the proper exercise of
political power
shocked Hen. Gentlemen on the other side had been
at hundredsof
above 71., yet obtaining persons not having a qualification
side. What he waentsehdeteked as
was
tested he was not so
the 10/. franchise. Now, he con-
es a privilege and a right. If theealea
poll, and look to the legitimate pretended on the other
to see was, the people come to the
landlords might prevent their tenants from ofrfotmheirregpoisltietircialngpo,
1 of the Noble Lordpassed,
power
rt
would they give up politics ? No, It would drive them into
combinati.Fns—it would teach them to expect that by means of