The Sun.
London, England, 1824-02-20 00:00:00

FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 20, 1824.

the Exchequer would not listen to a renewal of the Charter,
but whenever the Three per Cents. were at par, which would
be the case before long, he would pay off the debt due to the
Bank of England, and take the management into the hands of
.Governmant. He wished to impress upon the minds of the
country Gentlemen, that, contrary to the principles of banking,
the Bank had become mortgagees upon theirland, and that the 15
millions which the Government owed being once paid, they would
stand in a much better situation. He thought it right that
the accounts of the Bank, with its circulation and discounts,
should be brought regularly before Parliament. The Bank
returned no advantages to the country that could be compared
to the privileges and profits allowed them. The system was
now so changed that the commercial and other affairs would
go on as completely without the Bank as with it, and it ought
to enter the market upon the same footing as other trading
Companies. At present it was of no use whatever to the com-
mercial world, its discount being at four per cent., whereas it
could be obtained any where else in the market at three. If
country Gentlemen found the Government debt of fifteen mil-
lions discharged, the Bank would be ready enough to lend
them money at two and a half or three per cent. The Right
Hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer had said, that the last bar-
gain with the Bank ought to be kept until the Charter expired.
But the regulation of 1808 stated, that in consequence of the
increase in the debt it was reasonable to alter the charge.—
He contended that the same thing which made it reasonable
in 1808, would he a sufficient reason for a further alteration
now.

Sir H. PARNELL was of opinion, that when the Charter
expired, the sense of the House should be taken upon its re-
newal. The trade of Banking ought to be freer than all other
trades, and it was extremely injurious that any monopoly should
exist unless particular circumstances required it.
Mr. MANNING addressed the House in defence of the
Bank, but he was generally inaudible in the. Gallery. He did
not object to the returns, and hoped that those which had been
abandoned would not be proposed again without some such
case as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had alluded to. The
Hon. Member (Mr. Hume) .had said, that an account of the
discounts of the Bank ought always to be laid before the House.
The consequence of that would be, that every Gentleman's
affairs, who borrowed money of the Bank, would be raid before
the publiC. The Bank were also charged with having lent
assistance to the landed interest, contrary to the intention and
principles of their Charter. But he supposed the. Hon. Mem-
ber was ignorant that the Charter granter to the Bank in the
reign of -William and Mary empowered them to hold land in
their own possession, and that another Act of William was
passed expressly to encourage them to lend money upon land.
The remainder of the Honourable Member's observations were
inaudible.

Mr. ELLIS said that the argument of his Honourable
Friend, the Member for Aberdeen, was not that the Bank
should not lend-money at all upon land, but that the Govern-
ment by repaying the advances of the Bank would enable
them to lend it at a less rate of interest. The case of the Bank
could not be compared to' that .of a private banker, be-',
\cause its charter conferred advantages which no other cor-
porate body could possess, and rendered it .a complete mo-
nopoly. The conduct of the Bank had latterly been quite
eontrary to the interests of the Commercial Community. By
their rates of discount the market was regulated, and a man
of moderate credit in the Commercial world, who went to his
bankers to discount bills, found that, instead of two and a half
sr three per cent., which had been the rate for the last few days,
he had to pay four, because that was the rate charged by the
Bank. He believed that the discounts of the Bank of England
were almost excluded from Commercial transactions, in conse-
quence; and that not more than half a million of Commercial
Bills would be found in their possession at the present moment,
and those the very Worst bills in the world. Supposing any
change of circumstances to take Nate, and that the Commercial
Interest wanted relief from the, Bank. It Must then either dis-
tress the Government or the landed Gentry hy,preasing for re-
payment. He should like to know why. the Bank were not to
produce their accounts to the public. Was it expected that
their credit would be injured by it ? Then let them, look at
the Bank of France, who not only gave an unnual account of
their discounts, but of the quantity of bullion in their coffers,
the amount of paper in circulation, and a statement of their
profits. Yet could it be said that the credit of the Bank of
France was less in that country than that of the Bank of Eng-
land in this ? He was sorry to hear the Chancellor of the
Exchequer talk of straining the law to the prejudice of the
Bank, when it was known that they had made the most mon-
strous profits that ever was heard of under their regidations.
Could it be said that the law was strained to their prejudice,
when Bank Stock had increased, within his recollection, from
130 to 238 per cent. 'The lion. Itlember 'then read from Mr.
Percival's letter, relating to the bargain of 1808, a
.passage
which stated the arrangement to be
that
temporary. He concluded
'
by arguing that although 7d. for the annual management of
a hundred pound stock might not 'a
ppear too .0-rent a chae
vetexorbitant when extended to six or eight hun-'
II
lti ownss.
Mr. PIERSE addressed the -
analtili
a onse from under the Gallery,
and in so low a tone of voice as Seldom to be audible. He con-
tended that the conduct of the Ralik had not deserved the cen-
sure passed upon it, and that its character Might be justified
by the 'credit which it always maintained. They.had not been
induced to refuse the accounts because they were afra d to
produce them, but because they did not conceive it fair, or
warranted by the occasion With regard to the balances, four
millions sounded high in a round sum ; but the House was mis-
taken if it supposed that the Bank derived such an advantage-.
The sum was made up of various small sums under sixty dif-
ferent heads of account, and therefore could not be productive
of very great profits:
Mr BARING observed that the House would have enough
to do throughout the Session, if it were to employ itself in
discussing every question of arraneement respecting the af-
fairs of the Bank of England.
But
in the present case they
really had been discussing the question of the renewal of the.
Bank Charter, when no such subject was before them. He
should be very happy to try that question when it came fairly
before them ; and he had doubt it would then receive that
deliberation which so immenselyi important a subject demanded
at the hands of the House. e would however observe, that
itlvas a great mistake to Suppose, that because they were at
peace, and the income happened to meet the expenditure,
therefore a country like this could do without some such esta-
blishment as the tank of England. On the subject of com-
pensation which the Bank ought to have, it was unnecessary
at prasent to enter. It had been discussed over and over
again, and notwithstanding his honourable Friend had been
so frequently told, he always left out of sight the fair expla-
nation of the matter, viz.—that these balances of the Bank, to
the amount of four millions, were taken into consideration at
'the time of granting their charter. It would be found in, the
correspondence of that period on the subject, with Mr. Pitt;
and it would be there seen that the average of the balances
was six millions, whereas they now only amounted to four
millions. It might be said that the public derived no ad-
vantage from this ; 'but it should be remembered that the
case was different when the Bank lent their capital for the
public use.—(Hear!)—With respect to the Bank lending
money on mortgage, there could be no doubt it was a thing
highly beneficial to the country ; for there were many distant
parts whiCh could never participate the fall in interest on mort-
gages, without some such Company as the Bank, ready and
able to render them. But with reference to the principle of
this lending on mortgage, that was another question, and one
which he thought deserving of attention. It was a practice
which might lead to very dangerous results ; and if the coun-
try were suddenly engaged in war, it was by no means clear.
to him that the consequences might not be a return to that
Miserable state of paper money in
_which they had once seen
themselves, by an over issue of' the Bank. For by so much as
its capital should be locked up in mortgages, would its power
to assist be cirumscribed. In addition to this, there was the
large engagement with respect to the pensions. If it were ne-
cessary for them to be in a state of preparation for war, they
ought to have a National Bank in a state of efficiency as much
as an army and Navy.—(Hear !)—He hoped the House would
not shut its eyes to the danger of this practice, from the benefit
which the country derived from the loan of Bank capital on
mortgage. Upon the question of Five per Cents, he would
remind the Chancellor of the Exchequer 'that he had not
received encouragement from any part of the 'House in
executing that unfortunate scheme. At the same time he
believed he was betrayed into it by the tramnielti in which
his predecessor left him. It was no concession to the
Bank; but' a clear loss to the country of a million and a
half. At that time the Three per Cents. were at 74, and the
contract was made for five years. Now the same stock
was at 94, and probably they would have to repay it at 100.=
In any way it could be taken, it was had ; for if war had
therhad by so much destroyed the means of carrying it
on ; and if peace were to continue, then a million and a half

was thrown away. He hoped the Right Honourable Gentleman
would upon no account renew any such scheme. As to the ac-
counts laid on the table, they were so complicated that few
county Members he was sure could make out from them the
financial state of the nation. He hoped, too, that the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer would entertain no.thoughts of paying
off the Three per Cents. at par. If there were any Surplus
revenue, let it be applied to the, liquidation of outstanding
claim—let it rather be applied to the reduction of the float-
ing debt.
Mr. H. GURNEY thought it was very requisite .for the wel-
fare of the country that the quantity of Bank paper afloat should
be known. For if they were to depend upon the Bank for as-
sistance in the event of any emergency, it was certainly proper
that they should keep a strict eye over its operations, in order
to know that it was in an efficient state.
Mr. MABERLY wished for a Committee to declare what
the Bank ought to recive for managing the public debt. The
dead weight bargain he had always deprecated ; but as he had
moved for papers on the subject, he should forbear to carry his
view of it any farther at present. In his opinion the Commis-
sioners of the Sinking Fund might have had,. and ought to
have had, the bargain. As it was, they had been left to bUy
annuities at the highest possible price, while Government was
selling them absolutely at the lowest.
Mr. MONCK thought an account of the discounts most ex-
pedient, and objected strongly to the principle of the Bank
lending money on mortgage.
Mr PIERSE explained.—The motions were then put, end
agreed to.
PRISON DISCIPLINE. _ _ _

Mr. Secretary PEEL said, the House would remember that
last year a Bill had passed for the Regulation of Prison Dis-
cipline ; and it was now his object to move for leave to bring
in a Bill to amend that Bill in one or two patticulars. Amongst
other things it had been provided by it that certain things
should be done by the Quarter. Sessions of the different coun-
ties. Now it happened that there were no Quarter Sessions
either in York or Lincoln, and therefore.. the Act did not
apply to those counties. In his Bill, therefore, he should
propose amendment of the old Bill applying to these coun-
ties. There would be two other amendments—one was to en-
able the Magistrates of small jurisdictions to contract with the
county to send their prisoners to the county gaol. This would
get rid of many inconveniences attending the care of prisoners
in small jurisdictions, and it would also ensure an uniformity
of discipline and the removal of many abuses. To this propo-
sition, therefore, he expected general concurrence. To the
other amendment he thought there would be no objection. The
Act of last Session contained a provisiOn for the employment
of prisoners committed for trial. In his view the spirit of the
Act did not indicate hard labour to be the meaning of the em-
ployment contemplated. But there had been a difference of
opinion on the interpretation of that part of the Act ; and it
was his intention to propose a clause forbidding the employ-
ment of the tread-mill before trial. The • Hon. Member for
Shrewsbury had given a couditional notice upon this subject.
BLit as it would be better for them not to have two Bina where
one would do, he would probably be satisfied with the remedy'
being contained in the Bill for which he was about. to move.—
These were the principal objects of the Bill, upon which he
would reserve himself for greater detail till.sonee future stage
of the measure. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by
moving for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Gaol Act.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL gave his entire concurrence to the
motion of the Right Hon. Secretary, and he had no doubt it
would receive general approbation. It was to be' observed, that
there was a necessity for putting prisoners to work before trial,
in order to their gaining their subsistence, as it rarely happened
they had any other means. In doing away, therefore, with one
means, 'he hoped another would he:provided.
Sir T. LETHBRIDGE approval of the intentions of the
Right Honourable Secretary. He took this opportunity to im-
press upon him the considerable in&ctise-of expence which had
been brought upon the country, inconsequence of the improve-
ment in the jail-system.' Anthis expence fell upon the land,
from being levied by means of a county rate: It was a prac-
tice which had arisen of late to place every thing upon this
rate; and he was convinced the Magistrates;-at Quarter Ses-
sions, had not sufficient controul over t. Upon referring to the
history of that rate in this county, it would be found to have risen
300/. to 8,0001., and'upon 'the whole
the extent of thirteen or fourteen
'tihnescoo some
county
was particularsb burdened
e frnoemd
thousand pounds, in consequence of the practice of the Legis-
lature, which had of late prevailed of saddling fees upon the
county rate. All the weight of criminal justice was on that
rate, and no other bore any part of it. He hoped the Right
'Hon. Gentleman, in this Bill, would recognise the principle.of
placing these expences on the nation at large, and not bearing
on the land alone.
Colonel WOOD said he had also reason to complain for the
county re which lie belonged, of the expence of the present
Gaol Act. It was the classification part of that Act which had
been found so.hurdeneome, and in the case of his own county,
which was very small, three or four thousand pounds had been
laid out, which would never be made available. He should
certainly move for the introduction of a clause into the Bill of
the Right Hon. Gentleman, to exempt the PrinciPality of
Woks from the Classification Clauses of the Act:
Mr. HOBHOUSE thought there was great reason to corn-.
plain'of the unrestricted' application of the tread-mill. One
main objection to this instrument of punishment was, that it
was a far greater degree of punishment to a weak man than it
was to one who was of a 'robust frame 'and in good health.—
Another objection to the tread-mill was, that it could be made
an instrument of petty oppression. If the Magistrates were to
co on as they had lately, instead of being, as they had rather
hastily been deemed the blessing, they would prove themselves
to be the curse of the. country. They were too apt to conceive
themselves to be a part of the Government, and he was glad to
see the Right Hon. Gentleman give them such a leissim as he
was about to give them by this Bill.
Mr. Alderman WOOD.
.assured the }Tense that the tread-
mill was nothing new, as they had had it in'the City of London
for nearly a century fbr commercial purposes. Solar fiom its
being bard work, lie would say it was the lightest they could
put a 'man to who was condemned to hard labour.- If they
would da him the honour to visit some of the gaols.of the City
of London, he would show them something like hard labour.
. Sir C. COLE thought w ith the Hon. Member oppOsite, that
the Welch counties ought to be exempted from the Classifica-
tion Clauses of the Gaol Act. But with regard to the tread-
mill, he did not see any reasonable objection to it as an instru-
ment of punishment. It appeared to him to be a perfect mode
of punishment, because it was capable of being proportioned to
the power of every individual; and to every degree in crime, at
the discretion of the Magistrates.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said, he was sorry the Hon. Baronet,
the Member for Somersetshire, was not present, 'as he should
have addressed a few more observations to him in answer to
his complaint relative to the burdens of prison improvement
than-he could in his absence do. At the same time lie ad-
mitted his representations respecting the county rate were de-
serving of inquiry; but he must observe that the county could
not, in his opinion, better spend their money than in the im-
provement of their prisons. With respect to Wales it might
afford a case of exception worthy of consideration at a future
stage. He could not, however agree to part with the principle cf
classification as applied to Wales. The expence might be
met by three or four counties joining together and hav-
ing one common gaol. .He wished the Honourable •Mem-
ber for Westminster would read the Returni on the table,
which would shortly be printed, relative to the operation
of the tread-mill in every gaol in the Kingdom. Ile had
caused the most minute inquiry op this subject to be esta-
blished, and by the satisfactory evidence of these Returns, it
would appear that in almost every instance each individual,
upon being weighed after some months at the tread-mill,
shewed an increase in weight. This lie apprehended must be
taken as an indication of an improved state of health ; and the_
source of information was most complete and authentic. It
came from medical authority, and applied to every case in every
gaol. , It was to be observed that the tread-mill was worked by
weight, and not by labour or personal exertion, so that each
prisoner contributed only according to his powers. The ad-
vantage of the instrument he took to be, that it enabled them
to graduate punishments according to the offences and capabi-
lities of the offenders. He wished, before the next discussisn,
the Hon. Member for Westminster would inspect one of the
tread-mills in the neighboUrhood of London, and also consult
the papers on the table. He had always been of opinion that
the tread-mill was .an admirable instrument of punishment,
since it was open in its operation, and equal to all. He con-
sidered that he need not defend the Magistrates from the obser-
vations made upon them.- They had acted from misconcep-
tion, and not from the unworthy motives attributed to them.
-Leave was then granted to brin in the Bill.
JURIES.

Mr. PEEL then rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill to
cersolidete the laws relating to the empanelling of Juries.--,

PRICE SEVENPA.k.HCE:

He said, it was. unnecessary for him to attempt 'ally eulogiuna
on the system Of trial byjurY, and he hoped it.vtas equally
unnecessary for him to say, that it was not his 'intention, in
any part of the ptoposed•BilL; to introduce a word that would -
tend to weaken the efficieney of that admirable. totem His
intention was to consolidate the lewd;. when 'bs:stated that
there were no less than 80 statutes on that eubjeci, it would at
once be seen how desirable it was that a consolidation should
' take- place. There were 20 different statutes to shew who
might be a juror in England. The nuinber alone was a suffi--
cient reason for his measure; but from the.titles of some of the
Acts, no one could be led to believe that they related to juries:
He would defy any man to guess that he should-..find a regetla•
tion on that subject in an 'Act folthe more speedy.recovery of
small tithes. One Act was entitled, " for preventing the ex-
portation of Leather;" another, " for the- better payment of
Seamen's Wages;" and another " for exempting.Apothecae
ries from serving the office of Scavengers;" in all which there
were elauieS relating to juries. which he riropoi-ed to consoli-
date. As to any amendment 'of the law which wonid of course
provoke discussion, it would be better to postpone them to a
future stage of the Bill. On the subject of the qualification,
he should propose some enactment, and also for the more effec-
tually, compelling the attendance of jurors. On the subject of.
subordinate officers nominating the persons who Were to serve
on juries, he should also propose some regulation : he thought
the magistrates in petty sessions might he usefully, employed in
checking the returns of the tithingman or constable, and pu-
nishing any omission of a qualified person.
Sir JOHN 'NEWPORT hoped that a separate measure of
the same nature would be brought forward applying to Ire-
land, where the present practice amounted to a surrender of
iustice into the hands of individuals very ill qualified, from
the operations of jealousy and party spirit, for such a trust.
Mr. WODEHOUSE disclaimed the intention of casting
any reflection on any of the learned persons presiding or prac-
tilling in the Courts of Law; kit in some of them the Court of
Exchequer particularly, there was a laiity of proceeding with
regard, co prosecutions, and an array of Counsel, wifteli must
cenmel every one to enter a protest against both in a moral and.
constitutional point of view. He recommended to the Right
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) a quiet and .steady attention to the
amelioratiOn of such abuses, by which (though no. noisy fame.
was attached to it) he would confer the greatest benefit, and one
which the great body of the people would duly appreciate.
Mr. H LIME had on a former occasion expressed his opinion
in favour of choosing the Jury by ballot, 'and he bad since had
an opportunity of conversing with the officer whose duty it was
'at present to strike the special Juries, and he (Mr: Hume) was
convinced that nothing would be more pleasine to bins than to
be divested of diet power ; and this he (Mr. IP.) thought might
easily be done. He hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would
save the House the trouble of going through two bills, as it
would be much more convenient to have the whole subject em-
braced in one statute. Indeed,_ lie considered the simplification .
of the statute-book as an object well worthy. of the:attention of
Government. He instanced The zase of an act for recovering of
tithes, which contained a clause, tbe effect of which limited the
number of proctors in the Prerogative Court, and the. charges
were in consequence very high.
Mr. G. LAMB said he could not but feel jealous of come,
lidating Acts, as he lied seldom known them to „o through the .
House without some new clause being introduced. -The Hon.
Member for Aberdeen, on the proposal for amending the JUry
system, was at once for simplifying the whole of. the statute
law of England, and also regulating the Pierogatire Court.—
He (Mr. Lamb) would rather have had one single Bill, as pro- .
posed by the Hon. Member for Essex (Mr. Western).
fha
had occasion, he would rather refer to 'the .old' statutes on any .
point respecting the Jury system, tbanhave to hunt. it out in
- ,
the wordy labyrinth of a modern Act of Parliament. Much
'rat*as said to have been done recently by the repeal of abso
oppressive statutes; but there was a principle in opera..
.tion, which did good by leaving thein in disuse, whilst many
of these consolidation-Acts revived, and put them again into
baneful operation. .

Dr. 11,1 S H GTON considered ,the. present state-of the law.
to IT a very great.eiil. It was altnott;itnpossible to say on any.
one subject Alm was the statute law. There was no lawyer
in that Rouse Who could,toor be.believed in the other, not even
the Lord Chancellor himself. His Von. and Learned Friend.
objected to the ineasure proposed, because somethingprejudicial
might creep in, but it was the duty of that House to watch over
and prevent .such results. It had been said, that they would
lose the benefit ofdecisions ;- but was there ever a case in which
the COunsel.on both sides did not produce a number of cases
which each contended were exactly in point ! He would appeal
incountry Oentlemen whether it was not desirable to have in
one State.' the law which. otherwise they must look- tar in new
editions of. Burn's Justice, where the various Statutes were
pointeitout. The Statutes at Law. must. be procured; then,
at the trifling expence of about, 60 -guineas ; after that they
must have the Report.; in short, The whole of the lawyer's
library, -whichh. costa about 1,0001.
.Ile was satisfied that the
more the system was.exatnined, the more necessary it •would be
found to resort to the system of consolidation. •
Sir.EDWARD KNATCHBULL was friendly to the con.,
colidation of the law, though he was not prepared to admit them.
necessity of extending the qualification of jurymen:
Leave was given to bringin the bill; - • • • •--
'" THE IRISIei, CHURCH..
Sir J. NEWPORT, puramaa4 to notice, after some prefatory
observations' moved for leave. to bring. in a -Bill' to 'repeal so
much of the Act of the 21st of Om •11-.4"cap. 6; as prohibited
the diminution .of E cclesiasti cal .Dignities. by se reringfrom any
deanery or canonry, any parish,.except on the conditmn ofadd..
ing another parish -of equal value to it 31r. GRATTAN, expressed, his intention *of giving no op•
position to the Bill, though he saw•that it was liable to some
objections.

. ~ .
Mr. GOULBURN opposed the repeal of the Art, on the
ground that it would not forward .the objects which the 11913.
Baronet had in view. , - .

Mr. DAWSON opposed the motion on the same ground as
taken by his Right lion. Friend.(Mr. Goulburn).
Dr..LIJSHINGTON was desirous that a clause-should be
introduced into the statute, by which the Archbishop, with
the consent of the Lord Lieutenant, .might be einpowered.tcr
exchange any. benefice attached- to a deanery, canenry,•or other
dignity of the Established Church .in..ireland, for some other.
benefice (not theretofore annexed to such deanery or•othcr dig.. "
nity), even if it should beiof inferior value .to the Benefice so_
exchanged for it;
.previded.the exchange should be desiruble
for the more general and effectual celebration of the iervice of
the church.

. •
Mr. GOULBURN, who had formerly felt an ohjfction
this proposition, had now, no difficulty in saying that he would
consider it.

Sir JOHN NEWPORT, in reply, observed that he was
little surprised at the course which had been taken by the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. ,Dawson) who sat behind the IfikLit Hon:
Secretary for Ireland. • He had too .often differed, anti on some.
most important particulars, from that Hon. GentletAn to ex-
perience any astonishment at finding that his object' still ap-
peared to be to maintain the value and condition of ecclesiastical
preferments in Ireland at their present settle, regardless of all
other considerations whatever. His (Sir • J.•Newptirt's) object
was to provide for. the better and more extensive celebration of
religious worship, within the Church of. England communion.
At present, Iwshould crave leave to withdraw hit illation.
The motion was accordingly withdrawn.
IRISH RETURNS;
Mr. GRATTAN rose to submit a motion to whiCh he could
not anticipate any `asonable objection. It was merely for
some returns as to theisames and religious profession of certain"
individuals filling-particular offices in Ireland ; and hig motion
;was, in effect, coneurrentavith that of which;a Noble Lord hal
recently given notice. - • The House were well aware that. in
1793, an Act was passed declaring Roman Catholics as well as
Protestants eligible to all offices and posts in Ireland, With the
exception of such as were therein by name excepted: Now the
immediate object he had in view, was to chew how this statute
had been acted on, and. who had been omitted Out of its opera-
tion since 1793. And he really did believe, that these returns
would go far. to dennonstrate_what was the real cause of the
many political evils which had ;so long afflicted Ireland : for
they would prove, that out of tl e many offices which the Act
declared Homan Catholics competent to fill, .these Were hardly
one to which a Roman Catholic had, been admitted. (Hear !) If it
had not been for this most unjust and invidious sort vf.exelti-
sion, Ireland would,not ,have 'been 'agitits4 by half tile troubles
which had befallen her ; and such an evagionnf -the act of 1793
was productive of more harm than all th'C' penal atattites that
oppressed her. At all events, if Parliament; were to:repeal the
latter to-morrow, the .repeal
;would not effect greater .benefi t
_th
that unfortunate-country, than the due observance of ihis equit-
able act would ensnre. to her.—(Hear, hear !)-,The :Honour-
able Gentleman thartmoved,,i‘ That; there belaid fiefore•
.House a return of the names crAill, individuals elk fol.
lowing offices and appointm6f4l4n, Ireland,
..•

titese who profess the Romeo Catholie religion from these who
art Protestants ;—Barristers, Commissioners of Bankrupts ;
ditto, Commissioners of Insolvent Court; ditto, Commissioners
of Inquiry into Fees of Courts of Justice; ditto, Taxing Of-
ficers of Law Courts; ditto, Counsel to the Crown for the six
Circuit for the Assize of 1823 ; ditto, Counsel to the Cus-
tans, Excise, Commissioners of Stamp Duties, and other Go-
rernment offices; ditto, Magistrates (with salaries), of police of
the city of Dublin; ditto, Commissioners of Appeals in Revenue
Cauees ; CrOwn Solicitors ; Clerks of the Crown ; Clerks of
the Peace; (thief Magistrates under the insurrection and con-
otabulary acts; Trustees of the Linen Board ; General In-
Detectors of Prisons ; Governor, Deputy-Governor, and Direc-
eters of the -Bank of Ireland ; Scholars of Trinity College ;1
Onommissioriers for distributing the grant to the Lord Lieute-
nrient fer promoting education ; ditto of General Board of
//faith ; ditto of Inland Navigation ; ditto for auditing public
isecounte ; ditto of Cuetoms ; ditto of Excise ; ditto of Stamp-
thstLes ; ditto for paying and •lighting the city of Dublin ;
ditto for erecting fountains in ditto; ditto for preserving the
port of .ditto; ditto for wide streets in ditto. Now, among all
there ofneers, he really believed there was scarcely a single
3toman Catholic. There were 74 trustees, for example, of the
Jehtien Board ; and he had reason to assert that among them
there was not one Catholic—( Hear) ;—so that he imagined he
aught altruist say with truth, that in all the 27 offices and ap-
pointments enumerated in the motion, there was hardly one
offieer of the religious persuueion in question. —(Hear !)
Upon the question being put from the chair,
Mr. GOULBURN said, it hail not been his good fortune to
•he present its the House when notice of this motion was given,
and it was only by accident that he hail seen it in the Paper.
Bat as it stood there, it was by no means so detailed as the
motion now submitted by the lion. Gentleman ; for it was
there described as a " return of the .names and -religious per-
oeasoions of all persons connected with the general administra-
tion of justice, receipt and magement of the revenue, the gene-
ral mauufacture and education of Ireland." He (Mr. Goul-
burn) thought that every body upon reflection must see a suffi-
cient reason for his refusing these returns. It would be the
drat time that this House, by an order of its own, had ever
thought fit to call on certain bodies in the community to make
a• return of the religious persuasion of the various persons
of whom they were composed, or 'of those of the officers
they employed. Honourable Gentlemen must be aware that
even in_ the case of the common Population Returns; which
it was considered expedient to make at stated • periods, an
Act of Parliament was always passed to authorise the de-
gree of power necessary to be exercised, in order to get such
returns prepared. Yet, in a motion of this inquisitorial na.
tore, it was thought sufficient that an Hon. Member should
• merely come down and move the returns as matter almost of
vouree. It had, indeed, been the policy of the Legislature to
require Oiat the candidates for 'certain offices in the State should
make a profession of faith before they were allowed to enter
upon them; but such a test was never required of those who
had already entered and were in the enjoyment of offices. This
would be a principle quite new to our constitution, and one
which he (Mr. Goulburn) would ever warmly oppose. The
motion called for the return, not only of grand Jurors and
petty jurors, but also of all persons connected with the ad-
minietrition of justice. Now nothing could be more unrea-
sonable than that in such returns should be included indi-
viduals whose services were purely honorary, and without
emolument. Be had no objection, however, to a return that
should be confined to those who had already taken the test
oaths. In the stamp and ether departments, there was no ne-
cessity for inquiring into the religious persuasion of the officer ;
anti he (Mr. Goulburn)'cluring his own connection with Ireland,
had made it a sort of rule to himself to forbear, in cases of such
appointments, from inquiring at all into the religious or politi-
-cal opinions of the party. On the grounds he had stated he
should resist the motion.
Lord ALTHORP could hardly conceive it passible' if the
principle which the Right Honourable Gntleman had just
spoken of had been properly acted on, that in a country
where there was so small a proportion of Protestants, and
so great a majority of Roman Catholics, so very few of the
latter should have been admitted into these offices in the
come of so many years. Were there any thing inquisito-
rial in the motion of his Honourable Friend, he Lord Al-
thorp) would be the last man to support it ; but the fact
was, that till his own attention had been particularly called
to the-subject, he was not at all aware how few Catholics had
been appointed to offices which they were competent by law to
fill. Though not at present excluded by law, they were, in
effect, in prejudice ; and they would continue to be so as long
as. they continued a degraded cast in the country. The return
itself would be the most effectual means of removing the de-
gradation which caused so much mischief and misery to Ireland.
Mr. HOBIIMSE considered that when the Act of 1793
passed, it was intended by the Legislature that at some future
period, it should be known in what manner its provisions had
been complied with. It was said that in these offices there was
not one Roman Catholic.
Mr. GOULBURN begged to say that if such a statement
had been made it was untrue.
Mr. HOBHOUSE thought, that such being the case, a
stronger reason was furnished in favour of compliance with the
motion. It had been stated by the Noble.Lorti that 19 out of
every 2i) persons appointed to the office were Protestants ; and
an lion. Member near him, .who was connected with Ireland,
stated that such was the case in 49 cases out of 50. They had no
means of knowing whether this was so or not, but by calling for
an official return. To this the Right •Hon. Gentleman said,
would be to exercise aminquisitorial power. This the Hon. Gen-
tleinao knew was only put forth as the argument of the evening.
In many cases such inquiries were made; the persuasions of the
several persons in office must be known, and could it be pre-
tended that any of them would object to making the proposed
return ? The object of the motion was important, as it was to
ascertain whether religious persuasions in Ireland were a bar
against individuals holding situations which were open to them
by law. It was complained that the motion extended to sie
tuations which were not situations of emolument. This ap-
peared to him perfectly proper. In Ireland, as elsewhere, some
value was attached to the honour of holding certain situations,
and it ought to be known whether Catholics were excluded
from these under the present Government. Of the many able
Barristers at the Irish .Bar, there were few indeed belonging to
the proscribed rho had attained any eminence. There could
b 3 -but one fair motive for refusing the motion—it was, that if
the return were made, it would be found, as he before observed„-
-that none of the Catholics were allowed a fair chance of ac-
quiring the honours and emoluments distributable among the
rest of hislMajesty's subjects.
-The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he could
net enter into the views of the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last.
He was satisfied there was no desire to confine lucrative offices
to, Protestants. Two Catholic Gentlemen had recently been
appointed to offices in the Revenue, and no question at the
time of their appointments was asked as to whether they were
Catholics or not. lie did not himself know the fact until that
evening.
Mr. HUME contended that the exclusive system had been
practised many years; and that the cases just mentioned were
esti:tendons to the rule. The refusal of information would not
remove the present suspicion of partiality. The Greeks, about
whom so much was said, did not endure half the oppression suf-
fered by the Irish. Government had begun to shew liberal
views on some points, and he hoped they would shew them on
the present occasion.
Mr. AGAR ELLIS supported the motion.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said that so far from the two instances
referred to being exceptions to the general rule, they were ap-
pointments made by the very Irish Government reprobated by
the Hon. Member for Aberdeen. The granting of the motion
would require the asking of every Officer under the Government
whether he was a Catholic or not. Something had been said
about talent; but surely it did not require much talent to be the
trustee of a Linen Board. Indeed a Right Hon. Baronet oppo-
site (Sir J Newport) had argued that the Board itself was mane-
ceseeary. There could he no cause of complaint, unless it could
bh-shewn that the superior talents of Catholics had been over-
looked in favour of Protestants. Even if the Return in ques-
. don could be made, it would prove nothing as to the general ar-
gument of itn proper preference. On account of the dangerous
principle on which the motion proceeded, and of the total in-
conduciveness, in the way of argument, in any return which
could be made to it, he should Join his Right Hon. Friend in
resisting the motion.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT said the appointment of the two
a4Tscer3 in question were made under the Administration of
IFOfi. But under whatever Administration they were made, he
wanted to shew by the present motion how few of the Catholics
were afforded fair opportunities of advancement. He knew it
was the fashion to treat this question as one of no importance to
the general body of the Irish people but he should like to ask
any man, however eminent he might behea Chancellor of Eng-
land for instance—whether it was not desirable, for the hum-
b!est tradesman, to be able to hold out to his son a fair
prospect of his succeding to the honours of the profes-
sloe, to which a laudable ambition might direct him. That
this was a desirable spirit to encourage, there were many gra-
tiying proofs. He might particularly allude to the case of the
late Lord Avonmore, who by the. most honourable and labo-
rious exertion of his abilities had made his way at the Bar up
to the rank of Lord Chief Baron, and ultimately to the Peerage.
Yet this Learned Jag° was the son - of a wool-comber. The
question was one df importance to the' people at large. and he
supported the motion in order that the House might see the ex-
tent to which the system of partiality was carried.
Mr. CANNING said, the latter part of the Right Hon.
Baronet'sspeech had turned upon topics, in some of which he
felt with him, though he did not think the present moment
exactly suited to their discussion. The last topic, as it went to
show the interest which the humblest individual might feel in
the question of eligibility to the highest office, and that there-

fore the hope of such office should not be shut out from any,
was one which addressed itself to the feelings of all, and the
principle of which he had often- exhausted himself in up-
holding. But they were not then inquiring firm far gush
offices ought to be opened to all. What he had formerly con-.
tended for; along .with the Honourable Baronet, was--eligibi-
lity; ,but they were not going into ;,.the question of election.
For his own part, he did not wish that there should be any bar
between the Crown and the people; but he did conceive, that
having granted the faculty of choice, it was not the business
of Parliament to watch over the power which was not granted,
by restorded to the Crown. What had formerly been com-
plained of was, that Roman Catholics, being alike eligible with
their Protestant fellow-subjects to all offices, certain Statutes
intervened to limit as well the right of the Crown to select
as the eligibility to be elected to certain of those offices ; and
he fully concurred with those who made that complaint, and
in the beautifully poetical allusion that had been made by the
Honourable Member (Mr. Hobliouse), that the rays of regal
bounty should shine equally upon all classes of subjects.—
, (Hear, hear !)—The principle contended for in the present
motion went toe far. Others besides Roman Catholics were
not eligible to certain offices, and what was the remedy ap-
plied by Parliament ? An annual indemnity.—(Bear, hear,
hear !)—The true policy then was, not to inquire how far
this had been effected, and .put questions to each in a public
office as ro his religious persuasion. This was a principle that
could sever tie lost sight of, could all the disabilities against
Roman Catholics or any other sect be removed to-morrow.—
The present motion would, however, quite abandon it ; and for
no purpose whatever would he consent to it, for it might be wrest-
ed to the worst of purposes. He was as anxious as any Ho-
nourable Member could be, to remove those bars which
impeded as well the right of the Crown as the hopes of
a very large proportion of his Majesty's subjects; but
whenever the whole or part of those bars or disabilities
should he removed, it would be his wish that there the
matter should rest; and, the question pf eligibility being
fully or partially admitted, that the.question of election should
-not-be introduced. Another objection to the motion was', that as
lolig as this was a monarchy,- and the disposal of office was.
vested in the Executive Government, he did not think it politic,
though he would not say that Parliament had not power, to
examine into the exercise of that discretion, unless'iraud or
manifest injury could be shewn. In conclusion he would ob-
serve, that there was a disposition in his Majesty's Govern-
ment to give to the Roman Catholics a fair share of patronage
in regard to the situations to which they were eligible : and
believing that in the mean time this motion, if carried into
effect, would prove a firebrand in the midst of the people of
Ireland, he would give it his decided negative.
• Mr. HELY HUTCHINSON contended, that the great aim
of Government had been to defeat the object of the Act of 1793.
Mr. GR A 'I".P AN briefly replied.
The House then divided, when there appeared
For the Motion, 11 I Against it, 38 f Majority, 27.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Er.i:vErt o'Cr.ocir.