The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-20 00:00:00

There will be the same number of officers ; and, I
instead of these appointments being given to
those who say "they are quite sure that
the gentleman they recommend is a staunch political
adherent "—(Roars of laughter)—that he, besides that,
" reads and writes very well, and keeps accounts very
well," and that he is in all respects w. it qualified to fill
the office which they seek to obtain for him—(Continued
laughter.) Now they will merely say " that he reads
and writes very well, that he keeps accounts well, and
that he has been religiously brought up," omitting alto-
gether the political part of the subject—(Cheers and
laughter)—so that the assertion that this is a great
scheme to increase Government patronage is a most idle
apprehension.—(Cheers.) Sir, with regard to one
point, which is indeed touched upon in this resolution,
and which I am aware, entails very great hardships on
those who attend many of the Church schools
of this country, as there is a refusal to
parents to allow their children to come to
these schools unless they will learn the cate-
chism. and attend the school and the church on Sundays.
—(Hear, hear)—with regard to that rule, we neither
promote nor encourage it. If we had made it a condi-
tion on any of those grounds, that any of those funda-
mental rules on which the schools are conducted, should
be departed from before they should receive aid from the
State, we should lose the advantage of having such
schools well instructed and conducted as they are at
present. But for my part, I cannot but think that the
Churchitself will gain a great advantage by allowing
parents to send their children to these schools without

Insisting upon the children learning either the catechism
or being required to attend Church on Sundays.
—(Hear, hear.) I believe that the rule of the
Wesleyan body is this :—that it allows the parents to
educate their children according to their own religious
convictions ; and that I think is the best and at the same
tine the most charitable rule, as it tends materially to
diminish that ill-feeling which might otherwise be en-
gendered. I shall receive with pleasure any improve-
ment upon the rules to be adopted in the schools with
respect to these things. Ido not think that this grant
of 100,0001., of which a part will go to the dissenting
bodies, would entitle the Crown to exercise an undue
influence over voluntary societies. I say again, I should
like to see a change with respect to the rule adopted
in the schools in connexion with the Church ; and
I say further, that if any body of Dissenters are
willing to send their children to the Church schools, but
which t hey are prevented from doing, by the existence of
this rule, I think that would be an additional reason for
granting aid to that place, in order that a school might
be opened where all the children of the town or village
might attend.—(Hear, hear.) But, Sir, the question is
the scheme, being—as I will admit it is—very imperfect
in many respects. The question is whether you will
not, in any way, try to combat the evil which Dr.
Vaughan describes in terms which I will now read.—

(The Noble Lord then read an extract from a letter—by
the Rev. Gentleman, stating that the children of the poor
were growing up in ignorance and poverty ; and that
unless these evils were obviated that they would become
a source of danger to the State.—(Hear, hear.) I own,
Sir, I cannot but consider after reading that passage and
feeling impressed with its truth, that any one should be
an opponent to this system of education.—(Hear, hear.)
On my own part, seeing the evil is great, I am not dis-
posed to wait till I can get a more perfect scheme. I
am disposed rather to feel my way—to proceed as well
as we can—until at length we may find that there is
some scheme which possesses a higher claim to be con-
sidered, as one which will promote, in a greater degree,
the intelligence of the people of his country, and on
which those of different persuasions will unite and emu-
late each other in rendering them most conducive to the
cultivation of the people—then I shall be happy to en-
courage a scheme of education which will meet with
the concurrence of those different denominations. In
the meantime, all I ask you for are these means—inade-
quate as they are—with the view, in some degree, to
dispel that ignorance—in some degree to promote religion
and virtue among a great mass of the people. When I
ask you to do so, I am well aware of the opposition which
this scheme has met with—well aware that it would
have been easier to have shrunk from the task, and not
have asked this House to grant anything more than the
millions upon millions which already have been granted
to the military forces of this country; it would been easier
to have said, " Let us have the usual millions which
you have voted from time to time for the army, and
navy, and for the ordnance ; but we will not ask for a
single farthing for the purposes of education." But,
Sir, that would not have been consistent with the duty
which we feel pressing upon us—to improve as far as iu
us lies, the school teaching in this country—to assist, as
far as in us lies, in giving a knowledge of the ways of
virtue and knowledge—of the truths of religion to many
of the uninstructed masses of this country ; and be the
opposition what it may—however formidable it may be
at this moment—however formidable it may be—and
I lament to say, that such is the case, and that
the proposition has withdrawn from us the aid
and support of many who " through good and
evil report " have supported our political melt-
sures—be these evils what they may, it will be
a consolation to me to know that I have made an attempt
to diminish the empire of ignorance, and to raise the
people of this conntry in the scale of virtue and religion,
so that they may take a high and enviable position
amongst the people of all the nations of the world.
—(The Noble Lord resumed his seat amidst loud cheers.)
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE then rose, but owing to the
noise which prevailed occasioned by many Members
leaving the House, the commencement of his observa-
tions were not very distinctly heard. He said, no one
could be so unreasonable as to blame the Noble Lord
for the course he had adopted on the present occasion,
because he believed he was conscientiously discharging
his duty ; but, during the twenty-one years he had the
honour to have had a seat in that House, he did not re-
collect a Prime Minister of the country ever paying so
buncombe)
e mindsalfn, o andinofb
tetho; condescend,
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great a compliment as to notice an individual Member
of that House, particularly so humble a Member as him-
ioabnlee,rw. prejudice the
Lord might call his view of the matter anh.i:Tihdhl
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His consolation was that these apprehensions
were participated in by thousands, by millions of his
countrymen. The Noble Lord might call his resolution
a vote of censure on the Government, and a want of con-
fidence in her Majesty's Privy Council. If he chose to
adopt it as a vote of censure, he must do so; but if his
asked him if he had any confidence in the Council—
or rather in the Committee of the Privy Council, that
self-elected tribunal who were to be intrusted
with the carrying out of that scheme—in that tribunal
he had no confidence whatever. However the great
question involved in the motion might suffer in his
hands, yet he did feel confident that if the motion failed
it would not fail because there was anything in the re-
quest he was about to make that was unconstitutional,
or at variance with Parliamentary usage, or the practise
of that House; but if the motion failed, he felt that it
would fail in consequence of the inability which any
individual—an independent Member of that House—
must have in coping with that Ministerial influence
-which he knew had been and was to be brought to bear
against his motion; and one of the difficulties with
which he should have to contend arose out of the agree-
ment and understanding, if not absolute compact, which
they had entered into with the members of the Church
of England and certain members of the Dissenting
community—compacts and understandings which he
would say were most disgraceful to those who
had made them calling themselves " her Ma-
jesty's Liberal Ministry"—in the face of their
former opinions and their avowed principles. His
consolation, at all events, would be, if he should
tail that he believed that he had the support and good
wishes on this occasion of a great portion of his country-
men. If they asked him what made him think so, he
should reply that since he gave notice of his motion the
other day, he had received communications from all parts
of the country asking him to persevere in his motion,
and saying that the House would neglect its duty and
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any portion of the public money. Many of them were
connected as well with the church as with the dissenters,
and they stated further, that if he had placed his motion
earlier on the paper, they would have been better
enabled to have supported him by meetings and
petitions ; but if he had done so there would
have been but one discussion, whereas now the
whole question would be fully debated. Notwithstand-
ing the views of the Noble Lord, he was still of opinion
that the scheme would prove dangerous both to civil and
religious liberty ; that it was a scheme to increase the
power of the Church ; that it exceeded the functions of
Parliament ; and that it would prove an injustice to that
portion of the community who would be compelled to
contribute to its maintenance, but who would derive no
benefit whatever from its establishment ; and besides, it
would not attain the object it sought to accomplish, as it
would carry jealousy and dissension into every locality
in this country if it should be carried. The Noble
Lord had talked about intimidation having been used to
prevent the Members of that House from doing their
duty ; but he should like to know what means
had been adopted on the other side to get up
demonstrations in favour of the Government measure ?
In 1839 the Government postponed a national scheme of
education because they found they could not reconcile
the differences which prevailed on the subject; but after
the petitions which had been presented that night against
the present scheme, he asked whether there was any-
thing like concurrence or approbation in favour of it ?
The Noble Lord might feel himself very strong in
having bought off the Wesleyans, and obtained the sup-
port of the Church of England. He denied, however,
that the whole body of the Church of England intended
to support the Government, as a petition which he bad
presented from the diocese of York stated that the peti-
tioners were but beginning to understand the plan, and
saying that they were at a loss to know what portion of
the clergy were in favour of it, as they were entirely at
a loss to know. These were not idle apprehensions, as
the Noble Lord had called them, but the apprehen-
sions of members of the Established Church. He
agreed entirely in the prayer of that petition. The
House had witnessed what had been presented—that an
immense majority were against it, and that but a small
number were in favour of it, and that they were pre-
sented by the Noble Lord ; and it was right that the
House should know how they were obtained. They
proceeded principally from Members of the Established
Church, and when it suited the Noble Lord he could
getup demonstrations in favour of this measure. There
were 12,000 parishes in this country, yet after all the
endeavours of Lord Ashley, making arrangements first
with the Wesleyans, and next with the Church of Eng-
land, he had not been able to accomplish much in favour
of the Government plan. Ho held a prospectus in his hand
of a society established to advocate the Government plan,
the Chairman of which was Lord Ashley ; and then be
had a copy of a circular which had been sent round to
all likely to lend themselves to getting up demonstra-
tions in favour of it. It was dated April 6, 1847, and
after commencing Reverend Sir, went on to state that as