The Sun.
London, England, 1812-01-28 00:00:00

•
Principle of the 1310 from it:.Wa§ ti•
tended to make prov'iion for his Alaje4 in hiS
present calamitous situation. There were items in
the accounts Upon the table which might perhaps
render the grant of the 70,0001. unnecessary. He
Should not enter inta those items specifically him-
bnt he hoped tTie House would not go into a
Committee without appointing a Committee above
stairs for the purpose of investigAting them. On
Thesubject of extraordinary disbuisements, he dxcit
Vrticularly on those which came under the head of
Diplomacy, in which there was an excess since the
year 1804 of. 05 ,0001. He alluded also to the mis-
;inn of the Miirquis Wellesley to Spain, for which
here was a grant of 16,0001. He dtd not say that
these grams were wring, but he wished to know
k,
.."111 they were not. and on that account he was
fliiious for the appointment of a Committee. The
greund on which he opposed the Sl.eaker's leaving
he Chair, was coupled with this invention. The
papers on Olt table did not atrot d sufficient mate-
lials for judging, but if they were to add a single
shilling to the burdeps of the people, they should
examine the details which constituted the fouuda-

lion of the ehi:ns. He was glad ihai they were
met to settle, hr hoped definitively, anmarrance-
meat on tho.e and expre.sed his appro-
bation of that clause in the Bill, which provided,
that whenever the Mi,iiver watt obliged to increase
the Civil List, he should come to Pari3ment.
Mr. WHITER EAD said, that Sir Sidney Smith
m'as a person of who'e merits there could be 110
doubt. That the pubic were indebted to him be-
yond all price, " equally indisputable ; but there
was another debt which we owed to thit hero,

whose name requited no epithet—a debt which
should have been granted with aerlaelation, and even
exceeded by the vote of that House; but even to
bent with all his meths, he could not agree 'hat any
g,lnt should be ma !e u ithout explanation ; nay, ex-
Planation was due to Si, Siliiey Smith !Inns. It ; it
was due to the night Hen. Gent. who sat next to
the Clemeeller ot the VAchequet (Mr. Arbil, hnot),
for wilotn he e;.tet-tatived the higlp•st rest e, r ; it was
al", due to SFr A Paget, to Lord Wellesley, and to
the- Public, to state, why those arrears had not
been raid long ago. It was due to Lord Wellte—
leY, who had been al-pointed on an embassy to
• SPain, remained so long after in this country,
under „ircuns%tate Cs of political suspicion. Ail the
'Gentlemen who hed spoken wet e Gn w illieg tai oppose
the S.ataker's leaving the Chair, for the purpose of
rejecting the Bill, as ii wrist ueon the principle of
Providing for•the care of his Majesty's person and
- 'Pity in his present afflicted state; hot he denied
that that was th- principle of the Bill—it was the
principle of the 88, as lie understood it,
vati that of creating a separate and secret source of
totluence, which might or might not be used, as it
mat;litor might not have been used under he I" c>-
IttiCied Regency. His Right Honourable Friend
(Mr. Tierney) had placed this ia its tight
point of view. If the two Courts agreed, the
Influence of - the Crown would be increased,
and it they did not agree, the business of
the Cos-mime:l would be impeded. Did they
not know that the Regent regretted his being placed
1h such a situation by Prrliament, as prevented hint
from manifesting those feelings of duty amid tender-
ness Which he was so well disposed to exercise ?
"irould not any son have been displeased at the
same treatment ? But where vas the necessity for
all this machinery ? The restrictions would soon
fall off of themselves, and therefore why not give
him the Civil Lis;) Why rot furnish him with
lund.4, not only to sapply his nrjesty, but to relieve
himself from the degrade,) si3O Ilion in whit!) debt
l'hust place a Monarch It was know() that debts
were due by the Prlnce of Wales, and due for a long
titne; it was known that a sum of money was set
*side for the purpose of paying them, and people
Jerei_ given to understand that before the year 1811
Aliney would have been liquidated ; but now, so far
'tont his Royal Highness being abe to do so, they
Were called upon in this year, 1812, to give an ad-
ditional annuity for an unleened time, in order to
Meet debts, which, hoWever large in their amount,
must in their nature be limited ; but could t hey, the
Uouse of Commons, take upon themselves to say,
that he owed such debts, without a message to that
effect ?. It was not the fashi in or Ministers to advise
hem to make any communications,—and the con-
se▪
quence was, that they were called upon to vote
ilfferent sums which were said to' be necessary, but
not prove] to be so. In such a situation ought they
to • he satisfied, or ought the Prince of Wales Hid
tt been the custom, or was it the true sense, spirit,
'and principle, of the House of Commons, to grant
70,0001. for ever for such a purpose ? A sqm which
'bight be used in Parliament for the Crown or
"lost it, and whose tendency must be to endanger
the Constitution. But persons were to be appoint-
ed to superintend the private property of his Ma-
Jesty, and they were to take an oath of se-
Ti_eeY as to the application of that properly.
they might explain to the Queen, who was
their mistress, or to the Prince, who was not their
master, but to the House of Commons, who ought
t 0
be made acquainted with the fa a, they were
upon oath not to explain. Suppose that the fund
li"raa, to be laid out in purchasing boroughs or seats
et rar-liament, those, in a narrow point of view,
as ban! been stated, might be considered as pro-
tliing for die digniiy of the Crown ; but were
'ey not really destruaive -of the true interests
0f the country ) On the subject of money there was
an assertion in the Bill, in support of which there
Was uo record on Cie Journals of that House; it
teas elated that the Prince of Wales Was ready to
up 50,0001. a-year out of his Exchequer An-
allitY, but he would say that there ought to be an
„, '"od to it altogether. This was an assumption upon
Which he did not think they could proceed. Had
a Message come down upon that subjea, had
anY thing been said which coulslappear on theJour-
ha's of the House respecting it ? all these points
desired evplanatioe before he could vote for the
i'Peaker's leaving the Chair. He had not the ?bed for-
tune to hear .the speech of the Right Hon. Glut. (the
haneellor of the Exchequer) on a former night, but
Iti had heard it detailed by others, and was sure
that
it contained no grounds for going into a Clam-
Itlittee on the Bill. Perhaps the cases of Sir Sid-
tteY Smith and Lord Wellesley might admit of satis-
iattory explanation ; but no explanation was given
Yet.--,There were Many names not contained
to the papers before the House. He thought he
~..,tnight. ask why the predecessor of the Right Hon.
`'etatitman onnosite. in his mission to Constan-

. . _
tinop!e, *at 'not incl4.lded ? On ttias'e griStin6 he
wished that the luesiion "should Be pbStpOned
all eveuis, until sufficient information was laid before

them. The Bill itself was of such a prinCiple, that
he should be inclined to leSiSt it from that circum-
stance alone, even if others did not combine to
strengthen his objections.
The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER began, by
observing that the Hon. Gentleman who had just
sat down, had complained of his having -abstained
trout ()tiering to the House any remarks or expla-
naiions on the subject before them. He could as-
sure the Honourable Gentleman and the House,
that no indisposition of that nature existed in his

Mind. He was anxious to give as satistactory an
explanation as possible, of the • various topics
comprqed iu the Bill ; and he had withheld that

ex planation until the present moment, in order
to give himself an opportunity of collecting the
various object ions which different Honourable
Gentlemen entertained towards the measute.--

Had he risen immediately after the Right Hon. Ge-
n who had opened the debate he should ha►e
been precluded from hearing the observations of the
several Hon. Gentlemen who followed. Ai the same
time, while he frankly declared that he had not the

slightest disinclination to explain that which requir-
ed explanatiwo, he trusted that the Hon. Gentle-
man who had jest sat down, would not succeed in

convinciflg the Flouse, that, because he himself had

fallen into a great miiconeeption on the subjeM, that
thetelote hit miscorception and the miscooceptions
of others, not only called on hitn (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) to tender to the House an explana-
tion of the point so conceived, bot also -called on the

House to go into an inquiry on the subject. He

rather thought, indeed, th..it the whisper of the Ho-
nourable Genthman's Friend while the Honourable
Gentleman was in the midst of is misconception,

and which convinced him of his error, %could suf.

ficiently silos him ihdt on that point at le:ist, these
was no necessity for any such inquiry as would im-
. . .

pede the progress of the Bill. He felt happy that
he hid waited for the speech of the, Hon. Gentle-
man who had just sat down, for until the delivery of
that speech, he was at a loss to know, from what he
had before heard, how to address his arguments. He
was uncertain whether the observations of the pre-

ceding speakers were in opposition to the principle
of -the Bill or nut. The question before the House
was, whether or not the objections to the Bill

were of suet) a description, that it was their duty
not to proceed with it wit boet that detailed inquiry
which 1,a.1 been so strongly recommended. The
Honourable Gentleman had pointed out several
i ems in the papers, into which he wished that
some inquiry might be made, betore he coat
acknowledge - the necessity of agreeing to the
grants in the Bill. If, on a view of the ex•
pences of the Household, and of the charges like-
lv to be brought upon it, it would satisfadoray
appear that no more was asked for than what was
indi•pettsable, no inquiry could then be deemed ne-
cessary; hut should any jealousy exist in the House
with respect to any particular points, it would then
be: ome a diffeient question, namely, whether that
inquity ought not rather to take place hereafter,
than interrupt the important business in hand. Al-
though, on a general view of the Civil List, it might
appear completely satistectoty, that no airater sum
was required than that whi,l) was sufficient to de-
fray the expences of the Household, there might
be some points requiring, subsequent detailed in-
formation. Her would call in aid of his argument
an observation made by the Honourable Gentle-
man himself, oho entertained such a distrust of
all estimates of the Civil Last that he apprehend-
ed his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, by tak-
ing it at 5u,000 pounds less than that which his
Royal Father had received, would take it in a state
(as he himself conceived), insufficient to meet the
charges to which it would be liable. This tni,;ht he
a very reasonable apprehension, but if so, there could
be no reason in the apprehension that the grants
propos• d in the Bill were too extensive, and demand-
ed a previous inquiry. As to the observations on
the expences in the Lord Steward's department ;
although those expellees had unquestionably in-
creased considerably at the period alluded to,
it was almost certain, that in the estimate, the ex-
isting expenditure of the year in which it was taken,
had been only partially considered. Mach had
also been said of the grants to Foreign Ministers.
The Right Hon. Gentleman who opened the debate
bad said; generally, that a great numb r of those
sums ought to be explained, but had not stated any
particular lieu). The Honourable Gentleman, how-
ever, who had last spoken, had particularised seve-
ral sums, which appeared to him objedionab:e en
the face of them, and required explana.ion. The
first thing which seemed to strike the. Honourable
Gentleman wiih surprize on this suhjeel was, that
when the number of missions at dill'erent Courts was
lessened, the expences should be increased. The
House would observe, however, that there was no in-
crease in the salaries. On the contrary, in the sala-
ries there was a considerable diminunort. But the
Honourable Gentleman and the House ought to know
(and in saying this he went a great way towards giv-
ing the explanation required), that in the state in
which things were on the Continent, it would not Le
wise in many cases to sand missions on an established
salary. The duration of those missions was not likely
to be long. In preference, theretbre, it was advis-
able to send special missions ; but the expences of
these missions were defrayed Ma very different man-
ner from the others. The Honourable Gentleman
declared, that an explanation on this subject was due
to Marquis Wellesley, who, by a misconception, he
stated, had received the expences described in the
papers over and above his salery. It was no such
thing. The Noble Lord had not received a tat thing
of his salary on his Mission to Cadiz; He had
not received a farthing as a remuneration for his
services. But the Honourable Gentleman charac-
terised the expences at large, and seemed to think
they were dispropoi dotted to the Jetta,' h of the ser-
vice by which they had been incurred. Now it was
very evident that the expences of a person going to
any place in the cbaraater of an Ambassador for a
short time, must be much greater in proportion than
the expellees of any person going to any place in the
charatter of an Ambassador for a long period. The
Hon. Gent. also declared, that a debt d' explanation
was due to Sir Sidney Smith. The House had al-
ready heard an explanation on that subject, and am-
ply sufficient. They had heard that the money whieit
he had received was in return fur expences incurred
,r rat, .I.oa " cal 1 the Honourable

dentiernan, the CoUntr'dtiglit sobnei Id diathaige
this Obligation." -hut let it be reetalle&ed at what
a distance these services weft perfdrined--in Egypt
and the coast of Syria ; what a Were exe
isted to produce vouchers of the exPen4te hoW
frequently Sir Sidney Smith was absent from the
country, and consequently interrupted in 4.he arrange-
ment of the accounts; how-anxious he riaturally.was•
that there should be every possible degree of exaoli—
rude on thd Stibjeet ; and it would not appear sur-
prising that some delay had taken place. If, how-
ever, more explanation was thought necessary, he
had no objeCtion to the pro'cluEtion of the detatlslroin'
the different offices; but he was confident it would
not be found in thosedetailathavany sum hed been
given to Sir Sidney Smith .as a remuneration for his
services : all that hadbeen given.was merely a remu-
neration for his expenditure.. Let the Hon. Gent k-
man consi er the nature. of Sir Sidney Smith's ser-
vices, the character of the people with whom he had
to deal, and the effeetual way in-which he discharged
the trust reposed in him,and he did not think that he
himself would deem the sum stated to be greater
than, under all the circumstances of the case, it was
proper to expend. (HeOr, ,hearjrom Mr. liiiiittread..)
The Hon. Gent. cheered this observation, and yet it
tended completely to confute his argument. Let the
Hon. Gent. case either his objection or his ap-
plause. The two were incompatible. If, on sheav-
ing that 70001. was paid to Sir "Sidney Smith for his
exeaace- when employ ed, half Mei military and half
in a automatic character, in Egypt' and Syria, the
Holt. Gan% intimated that he did not think it an ex-
travagant sum : on what principle could he say that
there was dt e to Sir Sidney Smi.h's honour and
charaaer any explanation, but simply a statement
on what ground the expences were incurred ? Par-
liament being eelp'oyed, under the recommondwian
of the speech from the throne, in making a provision
for his Majesty's Household, the Hon. Gentleman
suddenly interrupts them in the middle of the bu-
smess.—" Oh, oh!" says he, " here is an item of
70001. to Sir Sidney Smith; I do not think the sum
excessive; .1 do not want any explanation for our own
satisfadion ; but for the purpose of clearing the ho-
nour and character of Sir Sidney Smith pray sus-
pend all your proceedings, and arrest the progress
of the Bid at present under the consideration of the
House." The observations of the Honourable
Gf.thOettlall on the expences to Foreign Ministers
were all general, except those which related to Sir
Sidney Smith; the Marquis Wellesley, Mr. Arbuth-
not, and Sir A. Paget. He (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) trusted, that whatever might be due to
any other party, he had not left the character of Sir
Sidney Smith exposed to any cloud or stain ; and
therefore the tine figure which the Honourable Genes
tleman so eloquently introduced, of the debt of ex-
planation due to Sir Sidney Smith on this occasion,
might serve to wind up a magnificent period
in the Honourable G,atleman's speech, but
had no relation whatev.er to the subject befpre
the House. The same remark was equally applica-
ble to what the Hon. Gentleman had said of his
Right Hon. Friend, near him (Mt. Arbuthnot). The
sum paid to his flight Hon. Friend was distiettly and
simply a return for the expenses and losses which
he had incurred during the mission on which he
had been seni. Before any j..elotisy was allowed to
tiOst on these subjeas, at least justice ought to he
done to those who were conieeted' with them, Did
the Hon. Gentleman cooceive.. it possible that the
alf,irs of a great nation such as England could be
(la the Hon. Gentleman's opinion) successfully car-
ried on such miss'ons as he had-described, if the in-
dividuals emp!oyed in those-missions lotted them-
selves aaually ruined in the discharge of the
important , trust reposed in them ? Let the
House consider the manner which Mr. Arbuth-
not's mission terminated : he was obliged to
make a precipitate retreat. The hostility of the
Court at which he was a resident ren2er-
ed it nee-ssary for him so do ,o. He was compelled
to leave every thing behind him. Not a single ar-
ticle of the charge was there that had not undergone
the soiciest scrutiny by the Tteasury, and all that
really was paid oter to Mr. Arbethnot was merely
a fair return for the lo•ses which he had inevitably
sustained. When this occurrence took place, he
and his Right Honouroble Friend were perfeel
strangers to each other. Mr. Arbuthnot was not
then Secretary to the Treasury, so that it could not
be suTeded that any undue influence existed (a-
vowable to his Right Honourable Friend, but unjust
to the public. These observations would serve
as an answer to all remarks on missions abrupily
terminated. It was but just that the individuals
who suffered, should suecessfully apply to the
country lotredress. It, however, any further scru-
tiny nu the subject were thought necessary, let it be
entered into, but let not the progres, of the Bill be-
fore the House be impeded by a circumstance so
little connected with it.—He came now to the con-
sideration of what had been said respecting the
Commissioners whom it was proposed to appoint,
for the purpose of managing his Majesty's private
property. On this subject lie certainly had on a
recent occasion replied across the lab!e to a question
put to him, by a Right lion. Gentleman
that it Was IiIS titer) ton to propose sdaries to these
Cominksioners, to be paid out of the proceeds of
the property itself. Ile had since however reason
to believe that' he should be able to find persons
who would willingly tale upon themaelves that
charge, without receiving any salary ; and he should
therefore omit in the R,ll all mender) of salary what-
ever. The Right Hon. • Gestoleman professed to
feel great difficulty in legi,Liting at all tim,-s on the
King's private property--so should he (the Chan •
cellor of the Exchequer). But unqu:slionably, as
his private property, his Majesty had a right to•ex-
peel that it should riot be lost to him. Tee Right
Hon. Gentleman, after the profession of difficulty
in legislating on the subject, proceeded to the
conclusion, that the King's private property
was a thing which might be taken from his Ma-
jesty withuiit any ceremony. He did nor think
that many of those who in the fist instance were of
opinion that it was an extremely•delicate thing to
• legislate respeding the King's private' prop2rty,
would imniedia ely afterwards manifest a dispOsnion,
to jump at lt, and take it away altogether. If at
the end of the year the expense should exceed the
estimate by ten thousand pounds, that eXe_Sct should
be, communicated. Undoubtedly • this provision
would not insure the non-occurrence of any excess;
but it would insure this—that the error, if any
should take place, should be known and declared
in the time of the Minister under whom it had

rianurredi And that Palliatbent siioafd have the op.
portunity, in his presence; of considesing how tar it
was or was not jtstffiable. Another objecilon tuaii

to the rtica§ureby the Right Honourable Gentle

man; related to the memner iti which the futvls

granted to his 'loyal Highnest the Prince Rent
were left at his disposal. In the first piztre, be

could not agree. with the Right Honourable Gen•
%team, that t7arliameut. were making final arrange,

mews as (or the Prince's coming to the Throne.
They were .only making arranger en,s for the bet-
ter management of the househokl during his Ma=
jesty's indisposition. Jr win no final arrange-

ment, as for the Prince's corning to the 'Throne; It
would not be dealing fairly with the a)use to say
there was complete and utter despair of the‘King't
resuming the itoyal'Authority. Nothing existed 10
justify so dark and gloomy a view bt the subject:
If, therefore, Parliament kept in mind the
of his Majesty's recovery, they must also keep
in mind the possibility of the 11,sent's 'return i()tne
situation of Prince of \Vales. How; there;'Ore.,

would they be justified, under such circurn,tances,
in breaking down his Exchequer re‘eotte ? With
respe& to another part ot the subject COnnech..d with
his Royal Highness,, on this as well as on all other
questions, whenever there was an alternative, the
side which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)

took was always prouounzed to be erroneous by ihe
Right Honourable. and Honourable Gentlemen

opposite. They had so pronounced his proposhion
iu the present instance. Had he come doWta to
Parliament with that which they now affected to

prefer, he had himself not the stitalle,t doubt they

would have been equally alert in their objedions,