The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-06 00:00:00

HER MAJESTY'S NAVY.

Sir C. NAPIER wished to ask a question of the
lion. the Secretary of the Admiralty, but, as he had not
given notice of it, he would not request an
answer till Monday next. Last year it would be
that 100 naval captains had been taken off the list, an.
he found that within a recent period 72 frcsh ones Ilan
been added. Now, as it had been stated that the cap-
tains' list was to be reduced to 500, he wished to ask ihe
lion. Gentleman the Secretary fur the Admiralty whe-
ther the list had been reduced below that nu;nber by so
many, or whether this new introduction of names was an
addition to the complete number ?
_ _

Mr. WARD said Le would give an answer on Monday.
IRISH POOR-LAWS.

Mr. P. SCROPE gave notice that,:in Committee on
the Irish Poor-law Relief Bill, he would call the attention
of the House to the expediency of extending to able-
bodied labourers the same right to relief which existed
under the English law. He would also propose a clause
empowering boards of guard an4to employ the able-bodied
labourers on workhouse tams, and in reclaiming the
waste lands.

ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
On the motion of Lord JOHN RUSSELL, it was
agreed that the House, at its rising, do adjourn till
Monday.

SOUTH AUSTRALIA.
Mr. HUTT moved for a return of all moneys received
in England anti in the colony for sales of landi in S..ukh
Australia, or on account thereof; specii) int; (where
practicable) the parties from whom received, and the
lands purchased; also, for the expenditure of the said
moneys, and the authorities for such expenditures; als'.,
endamthoeuen
of all liabilities for hilatiee of passage-in:me). of emi-
landtha l'ii'vilaYi9labalteld
grants; also, of the balances of the Land Fund, both
i'l
specifyingE'll.4twhere r deposited;er a,
1.!,r caail,sio):
and the reserve for other objects (the said return , : o
commence from the last accounts of the Land Fund pre-
sented
to Parliament).—Agreed to.
MILBANK PENITENTIARY.
Mr. B. ESCOT I', in reference to the report which he
had drawn up, as one of the Milbank Penitentiary
Commissioners, wished to call the attention of the Right
lion. Gentleman (Sir George Grey) to the matter in
question. The Right Honourable Gentleman had
refused to receive his report, differing as it did
from the report of the other two Commissioners, but he
expressed himself willing to receive the substance of it
in the shape of a letter. tie (Mr. B. E,cott)
objected to do so, and in order to be satisfied
that he had acted right he had taken the
ad'ice of two eminent members of the bar.
The first learned gentleman applied to was of opinion
he had dune perlectly right, tit,:in order to be sure that
he was right, he next to-k the opinion of Mr. Sergeant
Manning. That opinion was cotifirmatery of the first.
Und, r these eircuincances he (Mr. Esc,,tl) must persevere
in sending in the report.
Mr. DUNCOMBE said .hat neither the House nor the
public were in possession of the report twice sent and
twice rejected by the punctilio of the Home Secretary.
He should move that the report be brought up and laid
upon the table.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir GEORGE GREY said he was quite ashamed to
delay the House by repeating the arguments he had al-
ready advanced respecting the practice adhered to in re-
ceiving reports of Commissioners who did not join in a
common report. He did expect that the Hon. Member
would have pat it in his power to have laid the document
before the House verbatim et literatim, the same merely
altering the commencement and the termination. He
had merely to say, that no such document as bad been
moved for, was in his possession.
Mr. B. Escott here rose, and placed a document
in the hands of Sir George Grey, who threw it from
him upon the table, and Mr. Escott retired.
Mr. HUME said that it was a pity that the House
should divide upon such a subject. The Hon. Gentle-
man must know that her immemorial, Majesty's Government had
and that
pursued a certain course fromtime
they could not now depart from that course. The Hon.
Gentleman could not blame them for not doing that
which was not according to practice. The document
_ being read as a
should be read as a letter instead of
report.
Mr. 0'
it unnecessary to divide
,
CONNELL thought
the House upon such a subject.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE
did not understand now in
what light the Right Hon. G s leinan held the document
.en* ,
of which he was in possession.
Sir GEORGE GREY
that he was in possession
of a paper placed in his handsl' in a very unusual manner,
moment, in the discharge of
the h
and really, at the present
el, and as a Member of that
dutes of the office he
b den able to read one word
he had not as yet e
House,i
of it.
Mr. T. S. DUNCOMBE said that he should withdraw
t
bring it forward a
some
future period.
the motion, and
assured the Right Hon. Gentleman
that nothing
Mr. B. ESCOrr far
from his intention as to do
was
so
octful or out of the usual course. He
anything disrespe
to the
content to refer
was
it highest legal authorities,
opinions upon it. The House would re-
memberand take their
that the Right Hon, Gentleman gave it as a
the paper before the House that he
reason for not laying
it
not in possessmi of it, and was that statement
,
was
't as he La done.
h induced . A
1./h• him to at
ie-:
CH - - eien withdrwo.
The luouion Rla .
ARITA BLE aTRuSTS.

Mr. HUME iahed to ask the Right lion. Secretary
for the Home Department a question, of which he had
given notice. He wished to know whether they were

prepared to take mestiurts this session to regulate the
pine charities.

- Sir GEORGE GREY stated that the question was
already under the eeeeideration of the Lord Chancel' r.
DESTITUTE PERSONS (IRELAND) ADVANCES
BILL.
On the order of the day for bringing up the report the
this B 11 being read,
Lord CLEMENTS wished to call the attention of
her Majesty's G'overnment to the Irish charities which
were at present lying dormant• He would name a few
of these charities. There was the Irish Peasantry So-
ciety and the British and Irish Ladies' Society, both of
which had received subscriptions to a very large
amount. The British and Irish]Ladies' Society had
received the sum of 12,3001. from the subscriptions
of 1322, when the last famine visited Ireland,
There was another society which had received sub-
scriptions to a similar amount. There was also a
handsome subscription collected in the :city of Dublin
by a society, which afterwards dissolved itself, It awing a
large balance in the Bank of Ireland. Now, these
funds could not be touched, unless by an Act of
Parliament, and when they were called upon for ad-
vances to meet the destitution which prevailed in Ire-
land, he wished her Majesty's Government to look
after the funds. One society, called the Repro• I
ductive Society, had a large sum to their account.
He would not at present call the attention of the House
to the Destitute Persons' Bill, but he would say, that
there were divers provisions in that Bill which would
render it i neffect ual, and still more difficult of management
thanl.he pi eirnt system of public works. He had asked the
Chancellor of the Exchequer last night what Govern-
ment intended to do to provide employment, and was
informed that it was proposed to do so by the Labour
Employment (Ireland) Bill. He did not know whether
Government was aware of what would be required to
carry out that measure. There were 2,050 electoral
divisions in Ireland. They would also require a staff
for each of these electoral divisions, which would be
under the control of a central committee, of which the
Lord Lieutenant was the head. He thought that was
impracticable, and he would beg of her Majesty's Go-
vernment to reconsider that Bill. Ile gave the Govern-
ment full credit for sincerity, but he did not think this
measure practicable. It would be necessary to form new
districts throughout the land, and this would require
some persons of corsiderable local information. He did
not see that it would be possible for the Lord Lieutenant,
with the machinery of the present Bill, to come to a
just decision. He had no objection to the names
of Colonel Jones, and Mr. Redington, and
Colonel M'Gregor being introduced as members of
the board, but it would be impossible for them (were
they giving every attention to the measure, and he had
no doubt they would do so as far as in them la)) to
superintend efficiently the working of an extensive
measure of this kind.

In answer to a question feria) Mr. WILLIAMS, in re-
ference to the way the funds would be advc.oed,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
could only repeat what he had stated before. The ad
vances would be made from the Consolidated Fund ,
300,000/. was proposed now, and when more was re-
quired, he would come down to the House, and ask
them for a vote. The money would be voted item time
to time, as it was required.
The report was then brought up and received.
DESTITUTE RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
The order of the dty for g,ing into Committee upon
the Destitute Relief (Irela,:d) Bid was then read.
On tho motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair,
Mr. HUTT rose and said that he was anxious to saj
a few words on the subject of the distress in lrelend.
He entirely concurred with his Honourable Friend in
lamenting that the Government should have adverted to
the subject of emigration in somewhat disparaging- terms,
Ile lamented it the more, as he looked upon it
as one—if not the only means— by which
the country could he r,scued from the terrible
eshonitits much were impending over theta.--(hear.)
There were in Ireland upwards of 1,500,000 hencl, of
tainilies, woo maintained themselves on the verge of
starvation, their wages varying from 2s. to 2s. 6d. per
week, and a small portion of potatoe land, whiL‘t,
order to give them the coarsest and cheapest bread, it
was necessary that they should have from 7s. to
Bs. per week. Seven shillings were scarce])
sufficient, and yet the whole rental of Ireland, which
was barely ten millions, was barely enough to support
them upon the grossest description of food. Even sup-
posing that every source of income was sunk, it e o ild
not give more than seven shillings per week
to each of the labouring population of Ireland.
The fact was, that it was utterly impossible for 'relent
to meet the demand of its population, from the destruc-
tion of theipotatoe crop. Let them say what they might,
or do what they might, a poor-law giving a right to
out-door relief could never be carried into effect in Ire-
land—and for this reason, that the gross revenue fish)
the soil would be utterly insufficient for the destitution
which it would be called upon to relieve. The acreable
production of England was four times as
great as the aereable production of Ireland. Why
then, he would ask, did this disparie)
exist? The soil of Ireland was not less fertile
than the:soil of England, perhaps it was more so. It could
not, therefore, be attributable to that cause. The reason
he thought must be the indifferent system of agriculture
which existed in Ireland, and until an improvement
took place in this respect, he was afraid that
this disparity would still exist. The minut
subdivision of the land in Ireland also
presented insuperable obstacles to improvement. He,
found, by a report laid on the table of the House,
that the whole extent of Ireland was cut up into
small holdings of from one rood to ten acres. Now,
he would ask what sub soiling could take place, what
drainage could be made, or what rotation of crops
could be put down under such a system ?
When the land was thus cut up into those miserable
shreds and patches' it was impossible to employ profit-
ably either capital or labour. They found that the
farmers in England were more consolidated for carrying
out improvements; but, in Ireland, the peasant culti-
vated his ground by himself and unaided. It required
four labourers more, in Ireland, to raise the same pro-
duce that would be raised by one labourer in England.
His plan was that there should be increased production
of the soil, which could be done only by more skilful
cultivation, which necessarily required that there should
be some consolidation of the miserable holdings in Ire-
land. He knew there were many opposed to such a
scheme, nor, he confessed, did he wish to see such ex-
tensive farms in Ireland as there were in 'his country.
He would wish the farms there to be of the size of what
would be called moderate farmS in this cou:itrv. Bt;:
this plan would require the removal of cotters. Govern-
Meta proposed two schemes—the first to reclaim the
waste lands, the next to promote colonisation. The first.
certainly, would be beneficial. Colonisation, carried on
to a sufficient extent, would, by diminishing the demand
for food ut home, which certainly would change favour-
ably some of the present relations between the land
the occupier. There existed in the British colonies a
considerable demand for labour; and he could say, from
his own knowledge, that in the colony of South Aus-
tralia the demand for labour was at this moment intense.
He could assure the House that ;n the mining districts
there existed a &maind fur at least 5,000 heads of
families and those deperh'ent on them; in addition, they
had a large territory in Poi) ne:Att, and he had no doubt
that an equal number of labourers would be requir,d
there, as the occupants of that land were equally in
want of assistance. He would riot say what quantity of
emigrants might be sent to Canada, and the regulations
front the Colonial office; but of this fact he was quite
aware, that there existed, both at home and abroad, im-
mense means of providing food for generations yet t,
come. Now then he came to the cost, and he was afraid
that this was a question which they would be compel',
to scrutinise very closely, what would be the cost then,
of an extensive system of home and foreign colonisatim,
to such an extent as would give a sensible lift to Ire-
land? The cost, he believed, to the Imperial Treasur,
would be Just nothing at all. He was sure that the
whole outlay would be repaid by the reclamation of
waste lands, as well as from other sources.
He had been one of the commissioners appointed by the,
Crown to manage the colonisation of South Australia,
in which he was connected with a most worthy and phi-
losophic gentleman, Colonel To:rens. They had been
the mans of partly laying the foundation of an impor-
tant and prosperous colony. In order to establish this
colony, they hail carried out 15.000 persons, and in the
course of a short time they had converted a forest and
a wilderness into the abode of an industrious and
thriving population.—(Hear, hear.) They had been
able not only to meet all their expenses, but had
realised 85,000/. The Government at the time granted
80,0001. for the security of the colonial revenue. This
sum had been since adopted by the Colonial Govern-
ment, and had been since liquidated by the revenue of
the colony. With such facts before the House, will'
should not the same successful experiment be repeated
elsewhere ?—kllear, hear.) In considering the question
of relieving the people, the House and the Government
should endeavour to carry out a systematic scheme
of colonisation on the principle which had been
found so successful in South Australia.—(Hear, hear.)
That unless we can get the means of feeding the popula-
tion of Ireland from the soil, Ireland must continue to
be supported out of the purse of England and Scotland.o
by means of the importation of corn. He believed th
us
he knew full
people of this country to be as liberal andasenero
as any other people under the sun ; but .
well that there were limits to their generosiity,oaunndhe
was convinced that if the Governmentof th
Parliaments
again c country
should find it necessary to applyto
anoth-r grant they would find them r n a state of alarm
and terror. He did, therefore, entreat her Majesty's
Government seriously to consider the question of mi
gration, which he considered had been too lightly
weighed. He believed it to be the only means by which,
in the dreadful and unparalleled distress, they would be
enabl-A to rescue the property of Great Britain and Ire
land from confiscation, and the people from the horrors
of famine.

Sit GEORGE GREY desired to bring back the House to
the original question ur,der discussion, which ~,as with refer-
ence to a Bill framed in such a way as the Government had
thought right to meet the existing, the pressing, the daily dis-
tress which was now pervading the country. Ho hoped, there-
fore, the House would be allowed to go un with the considera-
tion of the Bill.
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN (who was very indistinctly
heard) wished to press upon the House a proposition, for which
no Act of Parliament was necessary—for the Poor-law Com-
missioners possessed already full rowers to carry it into eff,.ct,
and would do so, if they received proper instructions. He pro-
posed to make a general electoral division of the town lands,
consulting not only the population and the extent of the terri.
tory, but also the space which each individual pro-
prietor should have on the property of such town land.
He would not go into the whole ai.pect or political character of
centralisati,n, but if there was r+ country less itte,t than ara.
other lor centialisatioo, it was Ireland. He now called upon
the House to give him its attention while he arraigned the two
great classes of Ireland against each other. They were called
upon t v:
o vote a ay millions for the relief of the distress in that
country. He would not say whether that was right or whe-
ther it was wrong, but the ever-recurring, never-ending ques-
tion was, what where they to do with the landlords of Ireland'

There were continual accounts of a most different descriptiesi
brought forward in that House. On one hand they were melt
by cases of the greatest cruelty and selfishness, and on the
other by instances of the greatest self-denial, and the most
general philanthropy. The question they had to consider,
alter they had passed these laws, and voted them millions, was
what they were to do with the Irish landlords. He would.
have had tome difficulty in answering this question,
if he did not know, from his own knowledge.
that the Irish landlords e ere divided into two classes. There
were some of them who still clung to the moat disgraceful prac-
tice of their class. There were others of them who looked for-
ward to a better state of things, and who were ready to do all
' in their power to accomplish such an object. That Houser
was called upon to act with strict impartiality, and not
to interfere more than was actually necessary ; but
they were called upon to show, by the opinions they
' expressed, as to those who pushed the rights of property
to the extremest limits, and those who discharged their duties..
There could be no just abjection to his plan, it would be for
the benefit of Ireland, and yet the Irish party were not in their
places. He had always found that those who ought to assist
them when a measure of this kind was prepared were the last
to do so.—( Hear, hear.) Now it was proposed to levy an
absentee-tax upon Ireland. Whatever might be the merits
of that tax, he must be allowed to say that at present it was
ill-timed. A measure was before them for facilitating the
transference of incumbered estates, and they were doing alk
they could to induce English capitalists to invest their money
in Irish land, and yet what were the inducements held out by
the Irish party. Why, said they, "We will do everything toe
facilitate the transfer of the land, and we most heartily wisbt
eyxmillesutoccey9susrwoitwhnitthlw4ien you get it, but then you must be an
I foolishors pay an absentee-tax." What. a
policy was is . Why not let the English capitalist.
invest his money first, and then come down upon him with the
absentee-tax. Now, what he wanted the House to do was ten
draw a distinction between the landlord who did his duty, and
the landlord who did not—to pass such a law that all the town
lands should share in due and proper proportions the burden of
maintaining the poor. What had been the whole tenor of the
debates this session. No difference had been made between
free-trader and protectionist, or Wh y and Tory.
The whole course had turned upon one question bearing
upon the rights and duties of town lands, and in settling that
question he maintained that it was unfair to press heavily upon
the landlord, who did all in his power to improve his estate,
without calling upon the landlord who neglected his estate to-
bear an equal burtten.—(Hear, hear.) Let them take as an.
illustration of his position England and Ireland, and consider
them as two large towns. England was prosperous; and
was unhappy and destitute ; and it was-
unfair of Ireland, the English people said, to vest them with
the consequences of the misdeed of Ireland. It was unfair,
they said, to call upon them to relieve the sufferings of Ireland
because in times gone by she had neglected to improve her con►
dition, and allowed opportunities for becoming prosperous and
happy too, to slip by her.—( Hear, hear.) He was not there Mr .
say that these charges against Ireland were without foundation,
nor had he ever attempted to deny that the landlords of Ire-
Ireland had very much to answer for, but whether they had
done their duty or bad not, if they took England and Ireland
separately, they must confess hat the whole force of the
debates eluting the present session had resulted into a great
townland question. The Right Hon. Gentleman had con-
stantly said to the landlords of Ireland, " Help yourselves."
The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth impressed
the same upan them, and not for the first time, the other night.
But they had also said if we make you help yourselves we
make you help your neighbours also. All he asked was, that
they should separate the good from the bad landlords. There
were many landlords in Ireland who wished to sympathise
with the people, and to lend their best exertions to carrying
cut the most comprehensive measures of benefit. It was
by strengthening the hands of the good land-
lords that they would be able to carry out and
establish such beneficial laws.—( Hear.) It must be
weal known to any one acquainted with the Irish people that
mere law cf itself, as passed by that House, had little power
on the people of Ireland. To remove them from that want of
allegiance should be the duty of all who took upon themselves
to direct the affairs of the country, whether in that House or
acting in their own country as guardians. From his know-
ledge of Ireland, and his acquaintance with the feel-
ings and character of the people, and from the know-
ledge he possessed of this country, he would repeat again
that these laws could not operate as efficiently as the means
ha had devised. Moral influences, ancestral influences, and
aristocratic influences, had more power over the Irish peep?,
than any law passed by that country. Seeing a motion of risi-
bility On the other side, he must explain that aristocratic
in-
fluence in Ireland had nothing to do with rank. It was the
influence of the landlord over his tenantry when he did his
duty. All he stated was to show the necessity he contended
for of making a distinction between the good and the bad land-
lord. If they preserved the present system, you inflict on the
good landlord the punishment due to the bad landlord. He
repeated that this distinction was warranted, for the existence
or the different classes was known to all those familiar with
Ireland. It was not, perhaps, known to that House the many
acts of kindness which the recent circumstances of the country
called forth between landlord and tenant. How massy
distur-
hauces had been crushed, how many unlawful characters had
been rec'aimed, how many evils had been soothed, in a word,
how mach of kindness, and how much of heartfelt gratitude.
—(Hear, hear.) Under these circumstances, he was sorry to
see on the part of Government a desire, instead of diminishing
the area of territorial division to increase" it by the
divi-
sions proposed. It was not his intention then to enter upon
the discussion of the Labour Rate Act—(Hear, hear)
—but it was admitted to be, pro tont°, a nut.
lity. Now that Act was going on rill, and
another Act was coming in, which was the reason why he
called the attention of the House to both Bills. The Govern-
ment said they were determined to proceed with the union
rate instead of the electoral rate, they would injure rather
than serve the country. He would oppose to the utmost, its
its every stage, with all the pertinacity which the forms of the
House permitted, the extension of taxation—that, he would
not say dangerous, unjust, but fatal measure.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said he should not trespass on the
attention of the House, now that it was going into Committee,
but considering the importance of what the Hen. Gentleman
had said, that it was due to the House to make a few observa-
tions before the Speaker left the Chair. The question raised.
by the Hon. Gentleman was not a new question. It had been
urged upon his (Mr. Labouchere) attention by those to whom
he was bound to pay the greatest deference and respect,
namely, landed proprietors, magistrates, and Members of the
Government; but the more he heard, the more necessary be-
considered it to weigh carefully the very important principle
involved in this question, and the more necessary it was
for Government to proceed with caution in deliber-
ating upon it. Still they felt they would not be
doing their duty to the people of Ireland, if they did not con-
sider this question. The Hon. Gentleman had put forward
this principle more clearly and strongly than it had ever yet.
been expressed. His proposition was simply this—that to
provide for the distresses of Ireland it was necessary to deal,
not with committees, but with individuals.—(Hear, hear.)
It was admitted by deputations which he had received, that the
proprietors were willing to contribute largely, and to enter
into the system of electoral districts, and thus to give employe
ment to a considerable extent ; but they would do so upon the
condition of being allowed to employ those to whom
they gave labour on their own estates. There were,
certainly, great objections to that ; they occurred to
him then, and he urged them ; but he would not
now repeat them. What was the fact? There were 2,050
electoral districts in Ireland, occupying from ten to fifteen
thousand acres each, which certainly was an extent sufficient
to induce co-operation for good. The question proposed to
deal with private property—Hon. Gentlemen said, would you
deprive the proprietors in It eland of all motives of taking care
Of their own property, and providing for the distresses of their
own poor. He did think it certainly wrung to make those
divisions so large as to prevent their taking care of the poor on
their estates. But then to restrict the principles so far as to
say, that they should enforce upon them the duty of taking
care of any section of poor, merely from the
fact of their being resident in a certain district,
this was not the principle of any poor-law in the
world with which he was acquainted. It certainly was not a
principle of the law of England. It belonged to no country,
and was merely a remnant of serfdom and a principle of feudal-
ism. It was to him a great objection that it ' was a feudal
principle, and such a principle as he considered to be wholly
inapplicable to Ireland or to England in the year !W.—
( :Jeer, hear.) But even if the principle were adopted it
would be found that it would be utterly impracticable to carry
out the details. If they had 60,000 town lands to manage—
if they had separate machinery for each of these, or suppose
they had only one-half or even one-fourth of those it would be
utterly and absolutely impracticable to carry it into effeet.
But he would not go into that, as he held that the
arguments he had Already stated were utterly unanswerable.
He would take the case of a man possessed of large property,
and he would suppose him to be called upon to support all the
poor who might be located on his land, he asked, was not such
a principle wholly inadmissible? He held that it would be a
discouragement to the improvement of property, and would
produce in many cases, monstrous injustice. He must also say
that the plan of the Hon. Gentleman was utterly imprac-
ticable in the me of towns. The principle of division into
townlands ould thiovs an intolerable burden on towns and large
villages. When he came, therefore, to the conclusion which
he did, he assured the Honourable Gentleman that it was not
without great deliberation and examination of the subject —it
was not with sat consulting the most intelligent people, whe
were able to form an opinion, and considering the huddled and
crowded state of the population, as well as the general condi•
tion of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He held then, that the
townland, as the unit of taxation, would work the merit
monstrous injustice, for while some proprietors would be en-
tirely exempted from burdens which of right belonged to them,
others would be crushed by the weight of what they were not in
justice entitled to bear.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. S. O'BRIEN observed that he never said that town•
lands should be the unit of taxation. . . .

Mr. LABOUCHERE said that if they left the principle
of electoral districts, the next lower division to which they
must come, as the unit of taxation, was townlands. This
principle, he asserted, was not applicable to a tree people, but
to a population in a state of serfdom. It was a feudal prin-
ciple, and one which he never could recognise or support—
( Hear, hear.) He thought the Hon. Gentleman had very
much underrated the advantage of electoral districts over
of
iourab Gen-
tlemanektownlands in another point of view, namely, the advantage
andco-operathioimnselfmight
mmurtal bseuppion o
support.
a Tchei. t nto le
speak
of this from his own experience, but he (11r. Labouchere)
could state that it bad been productive of the greatest good.
The relief committees which had been established had been
the means of bringing those together vt).o never met before.--
(Hear, hear.) The priest and the Protestant rector—the
landlord, the tenant, and the cess-payer— men of different.
creeds, and of different politics, were brought to act together,
to know one another, to appreciate one another, and to reci-
procate the advantages of mutual assistance.—(Hear, hear.)
He saw the' during the last autumn, and he was of
opinion that it had tended
very much to the ad-
vantage of Ireland. He the.,ght. therefore, that there
principle of working by communities, insiead of by town-lands,
would in the present measure be much the preferable course ;
that it would be the most effective way to support Parliament
to assist the Government, and to carry out that measure which
would require the aid of them all to realise the benefit which
was intended by it. Thnetsoe
electoral advantages
d hs
ter
ie
tdistricts.
believedHe wouldwenld
notre-
sult from the division into
then go into the question, whether electoral districts or unions
were preferable, but he could assure the Honourable
Gentleman, that her Majesty's Government would approach the
consid ration of the subject with the greatest care. The
question, however, was not whether they would make the
electoral divisions larger, but whether they would make them
smeller—whether they should proceed by electoral districts or
by townlands. He had given his reasons why he considered
the former the preferable mode, and he believed the greatest
evil woul.l result if it was not adopted. If any gentleman were
again disposed to raise the question, he would have an oppor-
tunity of doing so on a future occasion ; hut be hoped that, in
the meantime, the Bill would be allowed to proceed.
After a few words in explanation from Mr. STAFFORD
O'BRIEN,
Mr. Al ORE O'FERRAL believed that the subject was one
which called for the most deliberate nonsid.ration from any
Government, and one on which English Menthers were pecu-
liarly fitted to give an opinion. His lion. Friend (Mr. La-
touchere) appeared to him to confound two things which wero
perfectly distinct—the division into electoral districts as ap..
Fficable to the Pour-rate Act of last session, and to tl.c pi 0.
posed Poor-law. He (Mr. F. Manic) was opposed to the
landlords of Ireland when they made the application referred
to, and his reason was, because the expense of

11

Repenting engineers and others, who would be re-
qu ired to carry out the arrangement, wouldcause
an immense expenditure of money. The importance of the
question, however, under the Poor Relief Bill, couldtat nitot
had
over-estimated. If the Government would say that
made up its mind on the subject it might bet worthy nit!' con-
sideration, whether it would not be better to
than to postpone it to a future occasion, but ifhad
n
l the
u objection
estion
might be considered to be still open, then he
to its postponement.
Mr. LABOUCHERE would not pledge the Government
to any course of the kind.
Mr. M. O'FERRAL said
fut they
that what he wanted was not to
pledge the Government to any particular course,
in on a
e
but that
should leave the subject open for discussion
occasion.
Mr. LABOUCHERE would give no assurance of the kind
required.
Sir H. W. BARRON regretted the tone of the Hon.
Gentleman below him (Mr. Labouchere), fie saw the
great danger of allowing the extension of the Poor-
law in the manner proposed ; as the electoral dis-
tricts as they now stood were quite too large
He was convinced that if the Poor-law were extended in Ireland
and not confined to territorial responsibility, the greatest mis-
chief would result to the landlords, and every other interest.
The system of electoral districts had not the effect of stimulat-
ing landlords to improve their properties, and to give employ-
ment, but by narrowing the amount of taxation, that effect
would result, and the country be greatly benefited. There
was no landlord, under such circumstances, who would support
the poor that might be upon his property in idleness, if he
could procure employment for them. And he was surprised
that this argument had not some effect on the Hon. Gentleman
below him (Mr. Labouchere), The only tangible argument
of any force nhich he had heard against the system of townland
division was, that it would teed to a clearance of the estates.
Now it cecurred to hint that it was strange that the Right lion.
Gentleman did not see that a remedy could be applied
for the prevention of that. lie, himself (Sir H. W. Barron),
had a notice on the books of the House, " that the landlord
should be bound by law to support every person that he ejected
from his property, for either three or five years. The system
of communities, advocated by the Right Hon. Gentleman,
might be very well in theory, but when reduced to practice, it
would be found by no means so efficient as the town land
system. If they were to have the English law adapted to
Ireland, let them have the division into parishes, inti educed as
in England. There every parish supported its own poor, and
in ninety- nine cases out of a hundred, a parish in England was
not one fourth the extent of an electoral district, neither in
size, in name, nor in any other respect were they analogous.
He hoped that the House would not adopt the vicious principle
of throwing the whole responsibility upon property in Ireland,
for such a principle would render all their efforts at legislation
for Ireland, vain.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. BELLEW said that the House could not lose sight of
the question, that the Irish population was in some way to be
provided for ; but it could not be done by the principle of
throwing the whole burden upon the landed property, as such
a measure would be little short of a confiscation. In Mayo,
Sligo, and many other counties, the rental of the estates would
be eaten up by being obliged to support those who were upon
them. He understood that the Hon. Member for Northamp-
tonshire wished that out-door relief should be given to the
able-bodied paupers, and he believed that the Irish Members
generally, were not in favour of such a principle, but on the
contrary, were opposed to it ; and, he believed, that such a
principle would be most injurious, as it would throw too much
responsibility upon the townlands, which rarely exceeded two
or three hundred acres, whilst the present district amounted to
six thousand acres in some instances.
Lord JOHN MANNERS confessed that when he heard
the Right Honourable Gentleman object to the propo-
sition of the Honourable Member for Northamptonshire,
for its not being in strict accordance with the principles of the
English law, he was surprised. Supposing that the proposition
did not strictly accord with the English law, if it produced a
practical good in Ireland, why should it be relented? The
Right Hon. Gentleman also went on to say, that he wished the
House to sanction the principle that a man was more to regard
the way he performed his duties to the community than the
way he discharged his duties to his property. His firm con-
viction was, that the community would best be served when
individual rights and individual duties were properly main •
tained. He was only an English Member of that House, but
he thought he might be pardoned if he now took some further
interest in this question. He thought that the Right Hon.
Gentleman, in laying down his principles with respect to the
duties to the community, was laving the foundation for an in-
creased area for taxation under the English poor-law. As an
English Member, he should be prepared whenever the
question was discussed, to pay attention to the opinion
expressed by the Honourable Members for Kildare and
Waterford, :and not be led away by the expression
of opinion with reference to feudalism, which had nothing to
do with the question.
Mr. OSBORNE said he would not trespass too much upon
the time of the House by the observations he had to make.
lie thought that the arguments adduced by the Right Hon.
Gentleman would certainly carry him to approve of the expe-
diency of a national rate. He thought that the lion. Member
for Northamptonshire had been somewhat misrepresented in
this debate with regard to the opinion he had expressed, Ina
his immediate object in rising was to draw the attention of the
House to what he thought as serious a matter. He did not
wish to interpose any delay before the House went into Com-
mittee.
He wished to wash his hands from the responsibility
of agreeing to this measure which her Majesty's Government
had brought forward for the temporary relief of
destitute poor. He had a s'rong opinion upon this
Bill. Ile gave the Government every credit for kind
and good intentions in introducing it. He believed
that no men mere actuated by better intentions, and
be also believed that next to the unfortunate people
who were now starving in Ireland they were much to be pitied •
The state of things in Ireland had got to that dreadful crisis,
that it was difficult to propose any measure sufficient as a
remedy. He believed that the measure proposed would not
be effectual. It would set into operation two systems, anti would
cause continual drains of money from this country, and that,
lie could assure the lion. Member for Bath, he was most
anxious to avoid. There were 500,000 people working on the
roads in Ireland, and it was intended to employ and feed them.
If they gave each of them a quart of soup per day, that, at the
lowest estimate, would cost Id. per head, or 10,000:, per day,
70,000/ per week, or three millions a year ; and yet during all
this time the labour-rate did not cease. They were certain in
t ringing this test to promote the cultivation of the country.
Na man who merely got his quart of soup would undertake
agricultural labour, and he had keen informed by medical
men that soup was not sufficient food for them,
and there was neither accommodation in the stray of ovens, or
meal to put into them. Even the workhouses were short of
bread. 'llia measure for temporary relief would not produce
any permanent benefit, nor tend to the cultivation of the soil.
After a few words from Lord BERNARD, the House went
into Committee.
Sir H. W. BARRON said that in the first clatfle he ob-
served that there were many officers to be appointed by tee
Commissioners subject to the approval of the Lord Lieutenant.
lie objected much to the principle, and he thought that the
responsibility ought to fall upon the Lord Lieutenant himself.
lie would propose, therefore, that the words " subject to the
approval of the Lord Lieutenant" should be struck out in the
16th clause.
After a few words from Sir G. GREY, which did not reach
the gallery,
Lord CLEMENTS said that he thought the responsibility
ought to be thrown definitely on the Lord Lieutenant, as the
mere necessity of his approval of the appointments would give
rise to many abuses. He did not see how those officers who
had other engagements to fulfil could properly administer the
present law.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said the Hon. Member had com-
plained of all the appointments requiring the sanction
of the Lord Lieutenant. Upon the fullest consideration,
of the question, the Government thought this course the most
desirable. He also complains that several of the Commis-
sioners, having other appointments, could not purposely attend
to the duties imposed on them by the present measure. The
true state of the case was, that Sir John Burgoyne and Sir
Randolph Routh would have all their time devoted to the mea-
sure; while Sir John Macgregor, Colonel Jones, and Mr. Red-
ington, would be able to afford them important assistance.
Mr. Redington, in a communication which he (Mr. Labrou-
chere ) had i eceived from him, said that he really believed that
by the rrangement proposed, they should gain a great
deal of time, and very much simplify the business. He said
also that the commissioners appointed would he quite sufficient
for the duties, and that the board would be quite sufficient for
all present purposes.
Mr. B. OSBORNE would not oppose the clause, but com-
plained of the enormous duties that would be thrust on Sir
John Burgoyne, and Sir Randolph Routh. He considered
that local boards ought to be appointed in the various districts
to relieve the duties of the central commissioners. If the Bill
was to work at all there must be local boards.
Lord CLEMENTS did not wish to press his amendment at
present, but thought the machinery was defective in its pre-
sent form.
The amendment was then withdrawn, and
After a few words from the CHANCELLOR of the EX-
CHEQUER,
The clause was agreed to.
Clause 2 was agreed to without discussion.
On the resolution that Clause 3 stand part of the Bill,
Mr. S. O'BRIEN moved, as an amendment, that those
parties who had subscribed to a certain amount should be eli-
gible in their respective districts for seats in the local boards
of management.
Mr. F. FRENCH approved of the amendment.
Mr. OSBORNE hoped the suggestion would be at-
tended to.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER objected to
the alteration proposed.
Colonel CONNOLLY thought the amendment of the Hon.
Member for Limerick would be a great improvement.
The Earl of LINCOLN was in favour of limiting the num-
ber of the Committee. Let them suppose it composed of per-
haps 50 individuals, and he was assured that with the peculiar
temperament of the Irish the business could be proceeded with.
Ile thought, therefore, that the clause as it stood would meet
ell the difficulties of the case.
Mr. SHAW thought that the clause should specify justices
either resident within the electoral districts, or having pro-
perty there. lie was quite prepared, however, to leave the
whole matter in the discretion of the Lord-Lieutenant and the
Board of Management.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL urged in the strongest manner,
upon the Government the propriety of including in the clause
the clergymen in the respective districts. He considered that
by so doing they would secure the confidence of the poorer
classes.
Mr. OSBORNE thought the whole matter might be left in
the discretion of the Lord-Lieutenant.
Mr. LABOUCHERE could not see the propriety of grant-
ing such unlimited powers to the Lord-Lieutenant. They had
taken the guardians of the respective unions, together with the
resident justices. With respect to the clergymen, he was sure
that the Government had no desire to cast the
sbeligloh_t_es_%reofleteteiun on the clergymen of Ireland, whether these
( mr".liCajo,ichher. Established or the Roman Catholic Church He
that body durin e) bore testimony to the great exertions of
without their theg existing visitation. He believed that
preserved the assistancepeactiktiewould have been impossible to have
to extend the powers in the lcountry. But they had no desire
himself of more especially as the Lord
Lieutenant could avail
of the advice of the clergy when
he found it necessary to do
so.
After a few words from Sir D. NORREYS, the amendment
was negatived without a division.
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN than propose,draen,,roter amendment in
the same clause, that after the word .
words be intrcaiuced, " Clergymen of all de 'nlkne 21, thesis
log in the electoral districts." nominations
111 r. F. F. FRENCH trusted the Hon. Member would not press
his amendment.
Mr. AGL lON B Y thought that Gove:nment should concede
the amentlineut to the wishes of the Irish aleiobers. They had
had experience, and therefore they ought to be placed on the
Committee.
Sir G. GRE Y said that a great difficulty would naturally
arise out of this proposition,
for the ministers of fifty denomina-
tions, who would claim the right, and there would be endless
confession. Then there would be anotherde difficulty
a momentultyastow
h who
were the clergy. He trusted itwwold not
RopsclA it was at
intended in the slightest degree tie cast any
11-01 12.citaticisi iipan the Catholic clergy.
,e,..... Allen few words from Sir R. FERG I:soti and
his Lord_nteJnotixerw,
„I,', Ma NNEas, the latter of whom stated that it was i
"4:'' to support the amendment,
r_
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said that a difficulty would also
i - arise from the positions of the Roman Catholic clergy in Ire-

1441' f*'