The Sun.
London, England, 1847-11-26 00:00:00

J

STJ N, L,47 D 0 N,

DEPUTATION OF IRISH REPRE-

SENT ATIVES l'O LORD J. R LTS3LLL.

Yesterday afternoon, pursuant to p-el i:)us arrange-
ment, and in compliance with a notification from the
Right Hon. Lord John Russell, conveyed to Mr. Henry
Grattan, Chairman of the National Council, a numerous
deputation of Irish representatives wasted en the Noble
Premier, at his of residence in Dewning-street, for
the purpose of directly bringing under the consideration
of her Majesty's Government the series of resolutions
acioptea at the sittings of the Council in Dublin previous
to the assembling of Parliament, and to urge the neces-
sity of prompt and effective relief for the population of
those districts in Ireland where distress and destitution
are still found to ex'st. The deputationists, including
the following representatives of Irish counties, towns,
and boroughs, assembled at three o'eleck, in the library
of the House of Commons, and immediately proceeded
en masse to the Treasury Chambers, where preparations
had been made for their reception:—henry Grattan,
M.P., Mr. John O'Conn..ll, M.P., Mr. Maurice O'Con-
nell, M.P., Mr. William Keogh, M.P.. Mr. John itey
nolds, M.P., Mr. T. C. Anstey, M.P.,- Major J. W.
Blockall, M.P., Mr. M. J. Blake, M.P., Mr. Daniel
Callaghan, M.P., Mr. J. T. Devereux, M. i)., Mr. James
Fagan, M.P., Mr. William T. Fegan, M.P. (Cork), Mr.
R. M. Fox. M.P., Mr. M. Fitz,tephen French, M.P., Mr.
John Greene, M.P., Mr. Robert Kestinge, M.P., Mr.
Charles M'Tavisb, M.P., Mr. W. 11. Mogan, M.P., Mr.
Nicholas Maher, M.P., The O'Gorman Mahon, M.l'.,
Alderman Thomas Meagher, M.P., Mr, 'William Man
sell, M P., Sir Percy Nugent, M.P., Sir Lucious O'Brien,
M.P., Alderman Timothy O'Brien, M.P., Mr. Morgan
John O'Connell, M.P, Mr. Anthony O'Flaherty, M.P.,
Mr. N. M. Power, M.P.. Mr. Edmond Burke Roche,
M.P.. Mr, Herbert, M.P., of Muckrose ; Mr. Francis
Scully, M.P., Mr. E. R. Tenison, M.P.

Soine days previous to the delivery of the Royal
Commissioners' Specch the resolutions passed by the
Council of the National Distress and National Safety
were forwarded from Dublin, by the chairman, to the
Right Honourable Lord John Russell, accompanied with
a request that his Lordship would name the earliest day
at his convenience for receiving a deputation from the
Irish Parliamentary party, in order that they might
afford the Government every possible information in
their power respecting. the distressed condition of the
country, and personally urge upon their favourable con-
sideration the various measures of temporary relief and
permanent improvement recommended in the reso-
lutions.

The deputationists were most courteously received by
Lord John Russell. After the formality of introducing
to his Lordship such. of the Members as now served in
Parliament for the first time,
Mr. H. GRATTAN opened the proceedings, by stating
that he and his brother representatives waited upon the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government for the pur-
pose of formally bringing under consideration the reso-
lutions adopted at the sittings of the National Council,
and with the view of obtaining from him an expression
of opinion on the various measures which the depute-
tionists, after mature and most anxious deliberation, had
resolved ought to be introduced aid enacted during the
present session of Parliament. Whatever shades of
opinion might exist among the Irish Members with
regard to the best mode of practically effecting a perma-
nent improvement, morally mad socially, in the condition
of Ireland, they were all unanimous in considering that
great distress existed in many districts of Ireland, and
that, in order to prevent the sacrifice of human
life, or rather, he should say, to check the fearful
progress of destitution and death, the most prompt and
effective measures of relief were imperatively necessary ;
for, no matter what might be said to the contrary,
the present poor-law was inadequate to the material
alleviation of suffering throughout the entire of Ireland.
The representatives of the Irish people were impressed
,with a sense of the awful responsibility imposed upon
them, and intimately acquainted, as they were, from
personal observation, with the dreadful privations which
thousands of their fellow countrymen were at that mo-
ment suffering, they conceived it to be their duty to lose
not a moment in urging her Majesty's Ministers to take
the alarming state of the country into their immediate
consideration, with a view to remedial measures. They
were anxious to carry out the principle of a poor-law in
its integrity, and to promote as far as they could the
collection of the rate; but still they felt convinced that
the resources available from them alone would not be
sufficient, generally, to meet the distress which should
be relieved.

Lord J. RUSSELL said he could not be expected to
give an explicit answer to a series of resolutions which
were so numerous, or to go into detail through
the various measures suggested by the Na-
tional Council, but as to the topic particularly
and emphatically dwelt on by Mr. Grattan—
that of immediate relief for the distress prevailing
in Ireland—the Government had made every in-
quiry upon the subject, and they had ascertained that
twenty-two unions would not be able, out of their own
resources, to supply the wants of the distressed popula-
tion. In those unions the population was estimated at
over one million two hundred thousand, and they con-
sidered that, aided by the poor-law, with such means as
the Government had at their disposal, and assistance
from other quarters, six hundred thousand could be
supported for four months. When that time had expired
they should consider what was necessary further to be
done ; but as to the rest of the country, they relied upon
the poor-law, with the increased employment which
would he afforded by the gentry, who had raised money
to the amount already of half a million, under the
Landed Property Improvement Act.' It would be most
pernicious to allow the people of Ireland to think that
they could rely always upon the giving of alms by the
United Empire. It had already been found that in con-
sequence of the rations distributed last year, they had
been induced not to make the usual exertions for the cul-
tivation of the soil, and in the case of fishermen they had
been found to refuse going to sea,relying for support upon
the bounty of Government. This was a gate of things
that should be guarded against. Besides, if a different
system were proposed, it would be rejected in Parliament
by large majorities. All parties who wished for the re-
generation of Ireland were anxious to excite a spirit of
self-reliance among the people. Measures of temporary
relief, therefore, would not be carried into eft', ct, except
in those twenty-two unions to which he had alluded, and
as there was a store of grain in the Government ware-
houses, remaining over from last year, the Government
would avail itself of that store to meet any local emer-
gency that might arise.
One of the deputation remarked that it was necessary
to establish additional depots of food, in order to save
the people from starving.
Lord J. Russser. said the Government had already
made arrengemeete for meeting cases of distress where
the poor-law would be found ineffective.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL observed that the gentlemen
forming the deputation, who had come from various
districts in Ireland, could not share in the hopeful ex-
pectations of the Government that the new poor-law
would prove adequate to the support of the people.
While the experiment was tieing made the people were
starving. Even where tho new law had come fully into
operation deaths were occurring, and relieving officers
were resigning their situations, as they found them-
selves unable to relieve the enormous number of appli-
cants. In the voluntary acion of what capital was in
Ireland before the filrat attempt was made by the poor-
law of 1838 to give it compulsory action, there was a
deficiency of employment and means of maintenance for
nearly three millions of the people. Since then Irish
capital was diminished, at least in the present year, by
twelve millions, representing the unsupplied loss of the
potato, and by six or seven millions or upwards, repre-
ser4inty the loss in pigs, sheep, cattle to some extent,
and poultry. This loss, (to say nothing of the cost of
the machinery of the two Poor-law Acts) mach more
than neutralised any advantages over the voluntary
action and distribution of Irish capital which were pre-
dicted from the stimulating and coercive effects of
compulsory provision for the poor. Emigration had
taken a good deal of capital out of Ireland, in small
quantities, and the increasing indebtedness of landlords,
employers of all kinds, and traders, swelled the ordinary
outgoings of' Ireland to a very large extent. In fact,
between the deficit of the potato, loss of stock, increase
of debts, and abstraction of capital by emigration, it
was no exaggeration to say that Ireland was, at the very
least, 20,000,0001. poorer this year than she had been
since the Union. The measures as yet heard of, as in-
tended for Ireland this session, held out little hope. A
Grand Jury Bill must be one of mere regulation of an
Land.taAtswwr
e?ld
alosrtdh
emigrationea an Tdoifeci, Han, tw Bo
ui t'e qu
indeed,i t
existing institution, and in no way creative of capital.
tclhe the
ctke nfaunr
.t
abtelendtoto
small capitalists, by the encourage-
ment it would give them to spend their capital on the
land. But, why was •
it not first on the list of Govern-
ment measures ? It it wercould go but a small wa e so, however, all its benefits
drains from Ireland. Andy, umndeerbethking the exhausting
how was it possible that the people ecoeu,lidrains and losses,
be
less future prosperity worked out ? A Parliament saved, much
Dublin was the only sure, efficaciona, and natural meansenti"
of bringing about the great desiderat um ; the stoppage °f
money drains from Ireland, the securing the benefits of.
a thorough knowledge of her condition, and identity with
heel interests in the body having the charge. of her
Legislature. But something might be done towardsthese
ends without repeal. The Government might share the
expenditure of the State more equably between the two
countries. An occasional session of the Imperial Par-
liament in Dublin would be of much use, particularly at
the present time, as real knowledge of Ireland would
thereby be acquired, and Irish business be much for-
warded in consequence; and the very expenditure of the
Members of Parliament and officers of the Government
would be of considerable service. The Irish Members
were prepared to point out measures of immediate relief,
in the employment of labour, to utilise the outlay already
expended, and which would otherwise be lost on the
making roads. Also to point out the necessity of au
extensive 5) stem of food depots. They would also point
out some measures of a more permanent nature, such as
the reclamation of waste lands, facilitation and enlarge-
ment of the Drain Act, and a tax upon absentees. The
Government might `have something like an argument
against repeal if the most beneficial effects did not follow
the adoption of such measures. At all events, whatever
was to be done for Ireland, should be something to in-
crease the circulation of money in the country. The
Hoer. Gentle man concluded by calling upon the Noble
Lord to adopt a liberal policy towards Ireland, so as to
pre%the
•ent a recurrence of
• late dreadful calamity which
had visited that country.
Mr. liminNirr olvervetin his I that own district, that of
Killarney, there were lumbers of able-bodied men who
that they could not earn a
were willing to work, but .
nd families. If this was the
subsistence for them,elves A
there were a number of resi-
dent gentry attic .
much would it not be in places
beauty of its scenery, how m
not so favoural•Ay situated ?
le Lord that the information
Mr, Fox assured the Nob .
received with respect to the
which the Government bad me
working of the new poor-law was quite incorrect. The
soil of Ireland was at present quite inadequate to the
supped of the people.

Mr. Reynolds, Mr. Maurice O'Connell, and other gen-
tlemen having addressed the Noble Lord, in support of
remedial measures,
Lord J. RUSSELL assured the deputation that the
Government was most anxious to legislate in such a
spirit for Ireland. He regretted extremely that it
would be necessary to recommend coercion partially, but
her Msjesty's Government were prepared to accompany
that coercion by measures of a remedial character, cal-
culated to ameliorate the condition of the people, and
restore security to life and property.
The deputation, having thanked the Noble Lord for
the courtesy with which he had received them, with-
drew.

THE WESTMINSTER REFORM

SOCIETY.

Last night a numerous meeting of the members of the
Westminster Reform Society was held at the York
Hotel, Upper Wellington-street, Strand, " for the pur-
pose of receiving the report of the committee appointed
to superintend the registration of ♦otes for the city of
Westminster, and on other business;" Mr. John
Thomas Campart, of St. James's in the chair.
Idr.G. E. DENNES, honorary solicitor to the society,
read the report, which was to the effect, that in the
course of the previous year upwards of 1,000 claims to
be rated had been distributed by the secretary, Mr.
Iluggett, in the parishes of St. John and St. Margaret,
to persons entitled to be rated and registered as voters,
and that notices had been served on the overseers to that
purport; the effect of which was, the pari•h officers hay
ing taken the opinion of the Attorney-General, which
coincided with the view of the society, "that it was
illegal to rate the landlord as an occupier "—that 300
claimants were placed on the rate-book. In 1846
the number of voters cn the list was 12,390, and
which did not much ♦ary in consequence of the
last registration. There were 424 objections
made by the society, of which 351 were sustained.
There was a gross gain to Reformers of 3;3 voters,
there having been only nine claims allowed to the Con
servatives. No costs had been paid, while a greater
proportion of objections had been sustained in West
minster than in any other borough of the United
Kingdom. _ _ _

The report was unanimously adopted.
Mr. GREEN read a letter from Mr. Huggett, stating
that Mr. Dennes had offered to give his professional
assistance gratuitously to the society.
Mr. PROUT moved, and Mr. KNIGHT seconded, that
the offer be accepted, which was resolved, and thanks
were voted to Mr. Dennes, who expressed his willing-
ness, on behalf of the cause of reform, to support the
interests of the society.
A financial committee of five members was then
appointed.
Mr. CRIBB observed that he understood they were to
have taken into consideration that evening the question
of the repeal of the window duties. He wished to know
if it were intended to introduce the subject to that
meeting?
Mr. GxEsist said he was not uneasy with regard to
the question of the repeal of the window duties. There
had been a meeting of delegates from various
parishes of the metropolis, at Marylebone, who
were watching the conduct of the Government
in reference to that matter. The question
would in a short time come before another
meeting of the delegates, which would be of some
importance, as there were sixteen Members of Parlia-
ment assisting the delegates, and who would be ready to
support the question of the repeal of these duties in the
House of Commons. They would be happy thus to
hear that the subject was not likely to go off. Air.
Geesin stated that in the report, published by authority
of the Government, in reference to the revision of the
taxes, this was referred to as one that was to be got
rid of.
Mr. HOCKEN remarked that he could not see how the
window duties could be maintained when the question
of sanitary improvement of towns was before the Legis-
lature. There was a necessity of the revision of taxa-
tion, as the working classes were unable to pay what
they did.
Mr. GEEsIN said that when the deputation waited
upon Lord J. Russell, of which he was one, Mr. Patti-
son, M.P., told his Lordship that the city of London
Was opposed to the window duties, and that it was an
important constituency, of which he believed the Noble
Lord was aware. His Lordship smiled. He was also
informed that a property-tax ought to be imposed on the
Marquis of Clanricarde, the Marquis of Waterford, and
other Irish landlords, when he could do without the
window duties.

Other members addressed the meeting to a similar
effect, it being understood that the society should wait
to see what steps the Government intended to pursue
upon the subject.