The Sun.
London, England, 1841-03-05 00:00:00

TEM MN, LONDON, FRIDAY, IARCH 5, tut,

liiiPERIAL P.Alt TAMEN T

HOUSE OF LORDS, MaltcH 4.

TL: Earl of SitAFTEsisuaY took his seat on the
Wut iack vt Five o'Ciock.

T. e Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition
frc,n. Croydon, against the Vaccination Bill. Also a
p?t;f on from the Guardians of the Poor of the New-
bur!. Union, complainipg of being cumpeiled to pay to
the faxes of the town of Newbury.
01 the motion of Lord. DUNCANNON the
laughing of Cattle Bill was read a third timeand pass:d.
The Eail of M INTO presented two petitions from
places in the county of Roxburgh, praying for the total
abolition of Lay Patronage in Scotland. The Noble
Earl stited that he-need hardly inform their Lordships
that he did not concur in the views of the petitioners.
The Marquis of NORMANBY presented a pe-
tition from the surg,ons and apothecaries of Liskeard,
in favour of Melica' Reform.

T:c Marqu:s of NORMANBY presented a peti-
tion from the PriYsbytery of Nairn, p:ay►ng for the
abolilion of Chwch patronage.
Toe Dukc of RICHMOND presented a pet:t'on
from the inhAitahti of Dumblane, in tie county of
Aberdeen, stating that they petitioned the House last
year to redreis V:eir gri:vanc_s ; that nothing had been
done to remov.: 414 e cause of complaint ; and praying
the House to repeal the Act which established Church
patronage in Scoll _ _

The Earl of RIPON moved for roams of the in-
come and expenditure of South Austraia, including tLe
source from which the income was derived, whether
from the sale of lands in the colony or intcroal taxa-
tion, and the geleral exce.rses of the Government, from
the time when the Act was passed establishing the
colony.
Toe Err! of GLENGALL gave notice tact to-mor-
row he would move for the production of the corres-
pondence which had passed brtween the Governaiorit
and the Poor-las Guardians of Ireland.
ST. SULPICE.

The B of EXETER said, that, in pre,enthag
the petition, of which he had given notice to their
Lordships, it might he convenient, considering the pe-
culiar nature of the case, if he entered a little at large
into the merits of the case, as it appeai
upon the petition ; and as he ventured to tuitsk
it could be prove I. Its reason for thit.king that
would be the most convenient and frdrest course and
that as to-night he sloul I only [et tion do
like on the table, this would be an opportunity to
tt.elr Lordships for considering, if anything te could
say should he worthy of consideration, the whole
case, before any 'notion i‘ as made for ul-
terior proceedings by that House. The petition
which he was charged with, was one of no ordinary
importance ; it was one, too, of rather a singular cha-
racter. The pi t tioners addressed tlieh. Lordships with
a prayer that they would interpose their advice with the
Crown against giving sanction to an ordinalee which
had been pa, s-.2d by the Governor-General of Canada,
with the advice of a Special Council is that province.
This was, he believed, toe first occasion on which such
a petition had been piesented to their Lordships;
but, singular as the incident was,
.he thouebt
the occasion would justify that singularity, for
most undoubtedly it appeared the occasion was far
more singular than the incident. Her Majesty's Minis-
ters had laid upon their Lordships' table, and he was
obliged to them for it, sonic despatches within these
few days to aid their Lordships in their deliberations
upon the petition. Her Majesty's Ministers had given to
them a copy of the despatch of the Governor-General,
dated the 2.-ith of January, in the present year, in
which he enclosed a list of persons who had enfran-
chised their property under the ordinance passed by him
and the Special Council last June, and made this
remark :—" I am happy to say all excitement
on the subject has now subsided, and I can conceive no
possibility of its being renewed except it were supposed
there was a probability of the ordinance being inter-
fered with in England. How little such an in-
terference would accord with the wishes of
those who last year petitioned the. Crowe,
you will easily understand by perusing the enclosed
There was then given a list of tic Proprietors
who had enfranchised their property under the ordi-
nance, and among those who had enfranchised the
largest quantity, were some of' the petitioners.
So' far was he, (the Bishop of Exeter) front
thinking that that indicated any disposition on the
part of' those persons to assent to the measure, that Le
saw in it only a proof of their great moderation. They
did not appi each their Lordships with any earnest
Lope that they would induce them so to interfe:e,
as to prevent the passing of any ordinance
for the purpose of putting an end to feudal tenures
from any pecuniary motive. They hoped their Lord-
ships woold interpose and prevent far greater evils t :an
the mere pecuniary burdens wh ch would be imposed
upon them by that measure ; and it woul i be his duty
presently to state what 'hese far greater evils were
in the opinion of the petitioners, and, he must frankly
own, in his own opinion. Appended to the despatch
of the 20. h J inuary, 1841, vas one of the 28ta Ja-
nury, 1840 —a long and rataer el *borate despatch.
That ds spatch b..ing laid upon the table, he thought
he would not be transgressing the rules of propriety, if
he e .t !red into s sine st ttements a little at variance with
those contained in it. The tone in which tie Governcr-
Gencrai of C o a !a had spoken of the petitioners anc. the
petition called upon him (the Bishop of Exeter) to justify
their character in their Lordships' estim tion. Before
the deputation of rettioners left this country last year,
they put into his ha ids certain statements which he
would not have presumed to lay before their Lordships
had it not been for the statements containe i in the des•
patch. Tie despatch " Accordingly I sent down
to the Special Council the draft of the Ordinance, and
after the fullest consideration it was Fared." Now the
fullest discussion implied a great deal, but it
did not imply the fullest information. So far
from that Le night be permitted t) saya•upon the au-
thority of the Committee of the Petitioners, that when
the Special Council were cal'ed upon to consider the
ordinance, they la quested to be supplied with infcrina-
tion—they called for an account of all that had passed
between the seminary of S. Sulpice, the body wi o
were certainly most interested in the 'Tie tier, and the
Government—and also they called for informal. n
upon the law of the case. They Lad not the
advantage which their Lordships enjoyed, of having tl e
opinion of the Judges when they required it ; therefore
they very naturally wanted to be furnished with the
opinions on the subject which the Government had
obtained during the last forty or fifty years from the
various Crown Lawyers. They also wanted to have
information as to the value of the property which was
thus to be given away to the seminary. Be. for rea-
sons, the grounds for which he coal I not discover, ail
information was perempsorly refused. Therefore, their
Lordships would see that the fullest consideraf on
did not imply V.e fullest information. He might also
be permitte I to say, that, in one other respect, the dis-
cussion in the Special Council was distinguished by One
very remarkable circumstance—one that was without
precedent, and unheard of before. The Governor-
General ti.en, for the first time, himself presided in the
Council during the whole of their discussion in
their legislat've capacity.—( Hear.) That was new
and unheard of ; and to prove it he would quo e
an authority which would be respected in that House,
am! woman be considered of some weight—he wot Id
quote the authority of the Governor-General hirnsrP;
T 1 e Go‘e -nor-G,ierdl had stated for the inform -.Lion
of the Colonial Secretary, that he had appointed
the Chief Just cc to preside over the deliberations f
the Connell. Anti in the correspondence which 1-e
wculd quote to their Lordships, this important sen-
tence was added,— " lexpect great advantage will result
from the presence of Vie Chief Justice sit t e
Council, and from his presiding over its ileac, a-
willch I find are not carried on in ti
presence of the Governor-General." He, One
Bishop of Exeter) was happy to say that that
opinion was common to al the Members of the Council,
and he was sure their Lordships would think with him
when they should take into account the rema:kable docu-
ment on the tenure of offices in the colonies. That
document show el that the Government kept a strict
eye over their officers in their capacities execu-
tive and legislative. • Ttivir Lordships woul I see
how individuals voted and spoke and demeaned them
selves in the dissens ons of that Council. In the rema-k-
-all -dispatch to which he (the Bishop of Exet .:r)
had alluded to, the noble writer of it stated that he
had every reason to believe, notwithstanding the
clamour raised by a few individuals in that
city, and the violence of the press, the mea-
sure had been approved of by the moderate
Men of all pasties. He (the Bishop of Exeter) was ex-
ceedingly sorry to hear that the moderate men of. tint
British residents were so few, for by the signatures which
lie would show to the House their Lordships would see
what a fraction of the British residents could be numbered
among the moderate men. That petition, which had the
signatures to which he referred, was drawn up after the
ordinances which had appeared in the Gazette Extraor-
dinary of the Colonies, and which was expected to be tilt
one proposed by the Governor in the Council hut
June. That ordinance differed in some not unimpor-
tant points. Immediately on this ordinance passing,
repicsentatia es w ere deputed to England, for the pur-
pose of pressing forward petitions against the ordinant c.
But that was not all. Immediat.ly after the address
had passed, a-meeting took plate, and most certainly to c
phrase used by the Governor-General might be app: o-
priate, for that assembly, indignant at the measure that
had been passed, entered into a strong declaration agaiest
it. Still, whatever might be the terms employed on thta
occasion, considering the rights of property involved in
the question, and considering also the far more grace
and important question of' the rights of ti:eir
religion, it could not be a matter of sur-
prise that even individual men should be
roused into the expression of somewhat strong terms.
He would now state to the House who were the petit
sinners who had lees so characterised by the Gover nor-
Genriil. The pet tou eves couched in calm and mo-
derate language, and it was signed by about 2,000 of the
persons who were described as the British Protester t

Maeistratee, clergy, landed preprietors, and mach:ens
of Montreal, and be won'd add that the petiteen
ii been sens off, eiteeto '-iii `g suflieient. time to ail
1 who wrre r.O diSpl.),3Nl to :da;:l it iN‘.iw 2,000 of the
B -eish Proo s"ares populas ion el the (airy of Moetreel
S';C:+2 a very considerable proportion of toe British Pre-
,
tea adult pepula'ior. In the City of Montreel thee:
e ere a'meet 13,000 British iebithitants. Ofthese aboet
0,000 were Rotnau Catholiee, and there reemaibe.l,timere-
fermi, not more than 12,000. Now, supposing cne
h.l of these wete matte, than would give 6,000. He
mecul I venture t, say that they had striely adhered t)
the resolution of not 'admitting the signstores of el el
deer, but only of the adu't male populetion. Wheel
lie said the Fetition was signed 2,000, he might
sal. ly infer that it was signed by two thirds of that
adtet population. But that was not all—those de-
scribed by the Governor " as riot belonging- to
the moderate men of any party"—the se men so held up
t, time indignation of the House, were, a
portion of fle us,
men eta. Ceti to the respect of that House, Magisteocs
of thee city—there were- also clergy, but these were
not alwa-, s considered entitled to the resfect of the
House, told were not perhaps to he accounted moderhe
tnsr, and therefore he would omit the clergy.—( A 1 :ugh.)
Bet the e were Magistrates, twenty-four Magis-
trates in the City of Montreal, and of• these,
how. many had signed the petition? Eighteen. Of
time
rae,in twoi were members of the Sp chid Couecil,
eisc‘i,rhet m six, two were absent in England on
and as such, though avowedly favcurable to the pe-
tition, declined subscribing i.. There rernairme I
one, or at most twe, ;whose names were withheld
:rod as he (the Bishopj
of Exeter) was told, net
rrom any disimiel ratioJl to it, but for [-ease s
which they did not give, or, as he had reit
son to beiteve, were perfectly distinct from any
thing like opposition. But supposing this was not tie
case, a majority of 18 ''.had crone forward to expiess
to their Lordships their earnest prayer to inter-
pese and save teem from the great eimfttnities which
they apprehended must oSiSue, net of Iv to themselves,
het to the. peace andsaf4jieesf the ccfmny if this nice-
' surd wes not re:htedeitiftrpleasress. IC however, taci-
t ter the 2 000 wherfa I signeioale.e. peei:ionesnor the 18
Megistretes, nor the el rgy, deserved attention, there
was one individul whose name was a t :cited to it, wit. m
I c (• he Bishop of Ex ter) was sure the N Ale Viscauet
(Lore! Melbourne) would say deserved it, and whoa ic was
qeite sure,-would be recommended as such by the Guyer-
: or-General bias If. That 'gentleman was no less than
Mr. D my the Seleitor-G,moal of toe provinces.
He was not Solicitor-Generil at the time be
simmer the. petition, but became so before the passing ot
time ordinence. Tout he was made Solicitor-Genera:
was plea that he was a moderate man, and therefore one
moderate man at least had signed the petifion. Bet
what was the conduct of the Magistrates in the Special
Council ? But two of them voted aedust the measure.
Bat though the despatch :aid this, it did not say
that two others who had declared themsele es
against it, for reasons which, no doubt, satisfied their
own consciences, had stayed away and did not vote
for it. One was Mr. Day, who as he (the Bishop of
Exeter) was informed, opposed it in Committee, but
on the question that it should be engrossed (a
5t3,11 equivalent to the third reading with us)
Mr. Day was not preseut, and did not. vote.
Teem was another Member of the Special Coun-
, eel, Mr. Black, who opposed the ordinances, and
he (the Bishop of Exeter) was assured on the
credit of men of honour and veracity that it was per-
fectly notorious in Alontreal that Mr. Black,
having intim. a'ed his opposition to the ordinences,
was sent for by the Governor, and nothing more was
heard of his oppoetion.—( Hear, hear.) He (the
Reverend Prelate) would not say, " Quia post hoc,
ergo proper hoc." But Mr. Black did not afterwards
appear at the Counc 1 during the -discussion of
the question. He would not trouble their Lordships
further as to the character of the peftioners. He would
now go to their prayer. They said they had petitioned
her Majesty not to conseat to the incorporation of tic
Rel:gious Society of Montreal, and t` ey prayed her to
relieve the inhabitants of that city and province from the
degrading vassalage to which "they were subjected.
Toey were willing that the rev.snues of the Island
of Montreal should he appropriated to public pur-
posi2F. They did not pray to be relieved
horn the burthen, but from the degrading conditions
upon which it was imposed. The petitioners now
pre) ed their Lordships to :Wort such a.eas.ures, either
by address to her Majesty or otherwise, in relation to
the affair, as might tend t, pe evert the consummation
of tee obnoxious ordinances. He would now explain
to their Lordships the way in which the petitioners
were treated in the depateh of the Governor.
It was said they were parties, and not only parties bu
assenting patties, to the bargain. Mr. Charles Buller's
Report teas to be found in Apeeadix E to Lord Dar-
hanm's Repo:t, pages Iss to 188 ; and he was per-
suaded that if their Lordships were to look at what Mr.
Iluller. said, they would find that his opinion on the set-
ject would net warraet the opinion of the Gevernor-
Getteral. Mr. Charles Boller was entrusted with the
duty of considering the question, with a sieve to the
s•ttleeteat of the disputed points. Lord Durham de.
sired :he Superiors of the Seeiinary
.to attend on Mr.
Buller, and he also se'ectcd, of his own choice, three-
individuals, whom he no doubt considered fit for the
ta•k. It appeared, however, that these parties Re e
chosen without the concurrence, and even without the
knowledge of those most interested in the matter. M.
Bailer made, as might be expected, a veryable Re-
pelt ; but it appeared that time Governor had not at
fir t beet able to obtain the consent of the bra 13 of the
Seminary to the ordinance, %bile it was 'existed by the
British party. A deputation soon waited on Lord
Detham, entreating him not to carry the ordinance in-
to (feet, but he intimated his displeasure at that inter-
view. He the (Bishop of Exeter) said that, without
wishing to say anything
disagreeable to the surviving
friends of the Noble E arl. Tea Noble E id was suc-
ceeded by a Noble Lord who lie wished was now in
it at House, in order that he might give them the
benstit of his statemeets. Lord Sydenham seeing the
mat er nearly concluded, proeseeded with the ordinance ;
this also get wind, and, just before the isulliestion o
the ordinance, a deputation waited on Lord Sydenham,
:ta.ieg that they had not acceded to the ordinance, at
which Lord Sydenham expressed his great surprise.
'These parties from first to last had declared thetnsel e.
against this crdinance, for the high and grave reasons he
had alrc aely st tied. lie had now stated the history ot
the ordinance, up to the tune when L wd Sydenham
it emit out tl Canada, and he would now say sernethine
of the Seminary of St. Suipiee. He rejoiced in the
firs' place to say that the parties who had subscribed to
the petition, had done that which entitled them to b
considered as acting most moderately. They had not
said one syllable that reflected upon any of the members
of that body. They deplored its, existance, constituted
as it was at present, but they had made no statement flat
reflected upon it. It was with great satisfaction that lie
took that opportunity of stating that from all he had
heard and le tel of the geetlemen who had signed the
petition, he believed they were ertitled to the utmost
praise for their perseveraece and zest! io doing that
which they considered to be their duty. Perhaps be
might say that the most important part of the commu-
nications that had taken place in respeel to this scud-
Lary was that which occurred when the Comrnissior era
on the grievaeces of Canada went overt) that country
in 1806. A Noble Ea-I not now in his place, a gallant
oflic is, and a lite Judge in India, opposed that Commis-
sion, and those three Commissioners, while they nega-
tived it: the strong s t -rms the legal clalms of this semi
nary ti its possessions, urged their equitable claims.
Two of the Commissioners were leas strong in speakirg
of the claims of this seminary Icing without foundation,
but Sir Charles Grey instated net to say that the
1 gal claims were totally Without foundation.—( Hear.)
But Sir Charles Grey aillcuoteledged their equitable
right;; and if these noble, learned, and gallant person
:toe. had been content with merely stating their opi-
nions, those opinions would have been entitled to great
weight. Tie strongest reason given, not for the legal,
but for the equital le claim of these parties was the
04th article of the capitulation of Montreal, in which
it was sa d diet the seminaries shoed I retain their pro
party and possessions. Sir Charles Grey di.. not enter
squitehle right of these pa tea.
tails that for a single moment ; I e considered it entirely
out of the question. Upon what did it rest ? It was
a la lost
fle r utchtei ns to the
said that for a period of seventy years namely, from
twhlelich were g vernthe strongest seemed
the conquest of the colony, tl e Government had all
passing of
alongof
,n rtehceor;etatissoend,
provinces, especially
the Quebec Act in 1774. In the 83d clause of that Act,
o : est upon u clause
which it was the 14th of Geo. 111., it was provided that
tihnostecglltive%
ell his Majesty's Canadian subjecte, except religious or-
ders and communities, should freely hold their posses-
sions and prof erty.
This seemed like an absolute ex-
elusion of the claims of true seminaries ; and if it had
rested there, he ventured to say that they would never
have heard of this quiet acquiescence, for 70 years, on
the part of the Governors. But, in order to explain
that favourably to the seminaries, the Commissioners
cited a Fart of the instructions which were immediately
afterwards given to the Governors. Those instructions
were as fellows :—" That the society of Romish priests,
called the Seminaries of Quebec and Montreal, should
continue to possess and OCCUPY their houses or resi-
dences, and all other houses and lands to which they
were lawfullv entitled on the I itia of September, 1759."
The Commissioners, in their Report, did not give the
precise words. They preferred to put it into different
lenguage, instead of hiving recourse to the mere dry
racial document.—( Hear.) He would read to their
Lordships the statement of the Commissioners.
No instructions were given to the Governor of Canada
on time 3d of Janua-y, .1779, in consequence of the
raising of the Quebec Act in the preceding year,
by the 11th section of which it was dimected that
the seminaries of Quebec and Montreal should re-
mai% in possession of all the houses and lands of
which they were in possession on ,the 13th of Sep.
ternher, 1759. These instructions absolutely negafo,..d
tee conclusion to which the Commissioners came.
The Commissioners stated that they were to remain
in possession of all the houses and lands of which they

. .
were before in posession. He must take_ a lee
to say the instructions said no such thing.
They sail the.e, e to continue to possees
ccoupy—a e y important word, becatre it
seerned idt,y WC: C to continue in possession
of oaly those t hiags cf which they were in occupation—
thet they should continue to oussess and occupy their
heouses of resideeee towhich they:vete lewfully entitle I
on the I:3th of Septetriber, 1759. Unless, therefore,
on the 13 h of September 1759, those seminaries were
lie fell,' entitled to tire possession of the property which
they now claimed, these instruct ons the Commissioners
apr eded to as conclusive in their favour, were conclu-
sive against them. The Commissioners themselves ad-
mitted they were not lawfully etit'tleil, that their legal
Car was a mere joke and farce. But what was the
peopeety they were then considering? Was it houses
and lends ? No, seignorial rights and deer. If he
might he permitted to c iii the attention of t' e Noble
and Leerned Lord opposite to this, chid ha wished
there were more NoLl r and Lea reed Len].) pre
s :it) he would beg of bins t ) consider whether
the phrase " muses and lands," which tho_e
parties were to continue to possess aid occupy,
cool I cover the claims of those se.ignorial rights and
dues? Unless they did, these words would exclude
instead of being •them within the coot implation of
the statute. But the else, strong as it was, did not
rest there. Unless they were in possession, they were
net to be permitted to hell them. He woell net de-
tein their Lordships by going at large into the nature
of these seminaries. They were most respectable semi-
ner:e and of greet antiquity—they were bodes that
were known to the primitive Church—they were
bodies which the Church of Rome ha I dare wisely in
retaining, and which he would le much pleased to see
in our own Church. They were insftuted, filet, for
the purpose of giving instruction to persons who were
qualify ing for holy orders, a most useful purpose, and he
thought such as institution would prove of great benefit
t 3 our Church. Another put pose of the seminaries was
to attend to foreign missions, and this St. Sulpice was
a most illustrious instance of the piety of an exci llent
man, a'. intimate friend of Fenelon. To his piety did
it owe its existence. The exertions of the missionaries
In Nee France, as the United Province of 'Canada was
then idled, were crowned with much success ; they bad
ha ce very successful in converting the Indian t abes ; he
was sorry to say that the impression 'vas not more per-
manent. However, the consequence of their success
was the forneit-on of a society reeeadling our Society
for the Propereation of the Gospel in Foreign
and to them was made over the Island of Mont-
real •by Louis the Fours e nth in the year 1667 ;
hut he distinctly guarded against permitting the
Meetre al seminary to be anything more than a mere de-
pendency to the society, in Paris. They occupied the
houses end lands even now ; they occupied near 15,000
acres, 800 ef which was wood, from which they obtain( d
tl eir fuel—one farm of ISO acres was in their own oc-
cupation, at d another farm was let. With regard to
the seignories they were distinctly possessed by the
Si mit ary of St. Sulpice in Paris, as was clearly proved
by Sir John Sewed in 1501—be adduced proofs clearly
showing that Ile society in Montreal was an eff shoot—
depende 'ery of the society in Paris. Now he appre-
hent'ed that the recognised principle of national law was
that all the corporations, nay, that all the rights of in
ilieidu ils which were opposed to the institutions of the
conquering State, were ipso facto abolished by that
conquest. That was the ordinary nd common sense
doctrine, and therefore it was perfeet'y open to the r.ew
State to say that they should devolve to the Crown for
the conversion and instruction of the Protestant poim-
la'ioe, as they were formerly applied to the Roman
Catholic population. if that was not done they
fell to the Crown of right. From the year
1773, down to the year 1829, various officers
of 11. e Crown, after investigating the legal rights of
elms, ecclesiastics:, affirmed the principle he had stated.
What occurred ? Why, that besides being extinct,
they were not even to be dealt with as individuals. They
were not even entitled to the benefit of the cap:telation.
None of the terms of the capitulation of Montreal gave
any recognition to these parties. On the contrary,
they had permission to hold the property till his Ma-
jesty's pleasure should be known. They were per-
mitted to go to France and dispose of tl.c property, no
intimation having been given of his Majesty's pleasure,
and in 1784 the Seminary of St. Sulpiee at Paris, who
were not parties to the capitol ition, executed a deed of
gift of their seminary (although they did not pretend
to be a corporation)of S'. Sulpice at Montreal. That was
the title by which these gentlemen claimed, and it was
a title wholly repudiated by ail the Commissioners.
Commissioners hal considered that tl.c Crown
mad invariably treated the members of the Seminary
of St. Sulpice as legally and equitably entitled to coo-
-1 tinue in possession of the property. He Lad shown
that by the instructions which continued to be given to
each successive Governor, down to the time of Lord
Gosforel, the me:Aces of the seminary were entitled t )
tl.e subject of their claims, but from the time of Lord
Gesford those instructions were changed, and the right
was in Lis (Lord Gosford's) time first withdrawn. That
would show that the notion was repudiated, of the asse..t
of the Crown being given to the posseesion of this pur-
perty, by the memLere of S'eSulpice. He -would g:ve
ano her instance of it totheir Lordships. He was sorry
t a' the Noble E irl who, in the year 1835, filed the
office of Colonial Secretary, was not in the House, but
he would Les leave to read to their Lordships an ex-
tract from a despatch of the Ist of January, 1835,
ehich he had sent to Lord At erde._er. It
happened that the Provincial Legisl. tare ;hissed a
811 relative to public education. That Bill con-
ta'ned some provisions of so objectionable a nature
that the then Gevernment thought it neces'a-y to ad-
vise his Majesty to withhold his sanction from it. In
the despatch to which he refers their Lordships, we find
:hose words—" The decision of the question in favour
of the seminary would involve consequences which every
Canadian, whatever might be his origin or of whatever
religious persuasion he might happen to be, would alike
depreeate." So much for the acquiescence of Govern-
ineut in th t uninterrupted tit'e of the seminary to t' :e
property chinned. There was, then, be contended, no
necessity for holding a great commercial city bound by
eaages which were now become obsolete. There hey
had a complete contradiction to many of tie allegations
of the Commissioners on -which they founded the opi-
nion, that this seminary was entitled to hold this in
quity whatever they were in law. But they had the!
authority of the Government in 1835, announce! by
the Secretary for the Colonies, at the time
of the d.sartrous consequences weich every Caradiun,
whatever his religious profession or polittcel opinions
migl.t be, would have reason to anticipate. He (the
Bishop of Exeter) rejoiced thet the petitioners had so
high an author ty in their favour. He would now say
a few words on a part of the subject which involved
a great deal of delicacy in its consideration ; lie mean
the merits of this body. As individuals, he be:ieved
they were entitled to the honour, respect, and re-
verence of every religious communion upon earth. In-
deed this was exemplified by their conduct and by the
uniform testimony of everybody in the colonies ; but
their merits as a useful body was a different thing to
their merits as individuals. To what object had they
directed their exertions ? Their objects were stave lin
the appendix to Lord Duthi:Ws Report, as returned by
the Superior of the seminary. They were first the
service of the parishes of Montreal, containing 20,000
Roman Catholics, only 3,000 of whom were English,
Irish, and Scotch ; secondly, the mission to the Lakes
of the Two Mountains ; thirdly, the little seminary of
scho'ars ; fourthly, a school consisting of thirty
masters and fourteen hundred children ; fifthly,
the foundation of Grey Sist ; sixthly, a
foundation for poor and aced individuals ; se-
ver.thiy, a foundation for forty Irish female
orphans; and in the year 1838 there was a new object
established, that of the Brethren of the Christian
Schools. This was a body of men brought from Fiance,
and he (the Bishop of Exeter) confessed Le did not
think the worse of them on that account, hut it was
right to say he had heard and blevsd they were
Jesuits. He did not wish to enter into any discussion
of the merits of tl.at order, but lie thought. it was not
entitled to special favour from their Lordships.—
( Hear.) Tots establishment was frequented by 260 young
men, who were taught writing, arithmetic, &c. The
sec ad of those objects was the only one that itt all agreed
with the objects for which the Seminary of S•. Sulpice
in Paris had endowed this property. This semi-
nary was in Montreal, and the only object for which it
had been established, by King Louis XIV., in 1677,
was for the conversion and instruction of all his sub-
jects. Their Lordships would observe it was not given
for the inhabitants of Montreal alone, but for all the sub-
jects of Louis XIV. In New France it belonged to all.
It belonged equally to all—first to the environs of the
Indians, and alter that to all the subjects of the Crown in
that part of the French dominions called New France.
It was remarkable that in the capitulation of Montreal
there was a special demand that the Indians who had
taken part with the French during the war should be
protected ; and in the 40th article it was demanded
that the Catholic Bishop should be allowed to send
missionaries amongst the Indians. All that part of the
article which referred to the protection of the Indians
was agreed to,' but the British general refused to allow
the Bishop the power of sending missionaries. All the
Governments since that time had acted upon those
principles up to the recent despatches sent to the
present Governor-General, Lord Sydenham. He assured
their Lordships that he held the exertious of those gen-
tlemen in great respect. But what had been the iesult of
their exertions? 'roe Learne I Prelate then read an
extract from Lord Durham's Report, in which it was
state I that it was impossiele to exaggerate the want of
education amongst the labouring population, and
the gross neglect of their teachers.—(Hear, hear.)
Tne Noble Earl added, that no more than two hun- •
dred or three hundred persons were educated in the
Canadian schools ; and that those parties who Were all
advocates, or notaries, or surgeons, possessed an unli-
mited influence over their uneducated neighbours.
ou u ;
The instructed class ha I no sympathies or interests
distinct from the rest of the population, who reposed t
them a confidence which nothing but _a
_sitenlhri ofn
feeling could generate. The entire want of education bad

• r: ndered the population ungovernable, and given the
agitators a power which they wielded against the laws
and interests of the community. Such were the
statements of the Earl of Durham, in his able
Report—he would not say wise Report, for
he did not agree with many of its doctrines.—( Hear.)
He admitted that the prie,t3 of the seminary of Saint
Sulpice had done great good in preventing an outbreak
i. Moat e.l, but it could net be denied that it was in
those parts of Canada which were mutt under the in-
fleence of the clergy, that the worst excesses of the
insurrection hal taken place. He therefore said that
on that head there was no special reason which should '
interpose between that body and justice—if it should
be found that justice required that that vast property
shoull he employed by the Crown for the public good.
Tecre could be no doubt but the ordinance materially
benefited the semitiary. That, however, he held to be
nething ; but there were higher considerations wt iel
proved the iliegi Ity of this ordinance. The ordinance
(fie. ted to create an Ecclssia4tical Corporation Gt Re-
' wish priests. He would venture to say, that this was
' the first attempt to do such a thing. King James 11.
never attempt e I it, and Father 1-1: ter re :•er attempted it. •
No, such an attempt was reserved for the present Gc-
vernrhent in the year 1840 —an attempt, he would
venture to say, which was against the fundamental
law of the country. Now, what was the first object of
' incorporation ? Why, to make perpetual ; and could
a Protestant Government, or a Protestant Legisla-
ture, if it was what it professed to be, dare to per.
pi twos that which ought not to be perpetuated, and
which must cease to ex at ? if he were called upon to
cite a statute tbet defined clearly, and declared the
Constitution of the land, he avotild ‘cite the statute of
appeals of the 24th of Henry VIII., chap. 12. That
statute described the state of England, and it el timed
for the Crown to be indepeendent of every foreign
Power. It st ited that there--were bodies politic of
different classes of persons, calied by the names of
spiritual and temporal, that that body which was bound
to the Crown of Great Britain was sufficient to dis-
charge all the demands for justice in the reales, and
it proceeded to declare tha.k seit..., be un-
lawful to apps al Weeny. -foreiate, and ite-espe-
cially ousted the authority of . WO:no ; and thet statute
passed before Henry VII Let wed to be in communion
with the Church of Rome. The next statues to which
he might refer were the Q rebec Act, and the, Consti-
tutional Act of 18:31, which stated that while every
favour should be given to the Roman Catholics of Ca-
t air), it must be subject to the supretra-ry of the Crown
declared end enacted by the Ist of El.z.theth, and that
Act declared that that supremacy should exist over the
whole of the British Empire, and'it was beyond the
moral power of Parliameet to do any thing in deroga- •
tion of those fundamental statutes, what the.) must be
said to this ordinance? But then it might be said that
it was necessary to pass some ordinance to make ails
an Ecclesiastical Corporut on ; he thought such a state-
went would be perfectly farcical. For this he had the
authority of the British Legislature in tt.e estatitslt-
anent of the College of Maynoo:b. That Ccl eeo teas
eaabled by Act of Pail ament to bold linds ; but the
Legislature of those days never dreamed of making it
a corporation ; they only inca't it to continue as
long as the educational necessities of the
Roman Catholics of Ireland required ; and they
studiously avoided giving it a corporate character.
Not only, then, was this ordinance not necessary for
the purposis contemplate I, but the framers ought to
have beers warned by the examele of the wise men of
those days, to adopt some ether scheme far carrying
their object into cff.ct. He must say, he said it with
pain, but he mutt say frankly and fairly, that he re-
garded this as only one of many instances of tire et:-
croachments of Rome at the present time. Bigot as
their Lordships might think hint, Le fairly avowed that
he believed that nesor, from the era of the Reformetior,
were the rights and liberties of every state in Europe,
of America, of our Colonies, of Newfoundland, and of
other la ts, more. endang red than at the pre eat
time. At no period were such gigantic cffares wade by
Rome to resume her empire ; and never, never were
they met with—he wished that he need only say such
utter indifference, but he must aid, with such partiality
and favour.—(" No," from Viscount Melbourne.) He
rejoiced to hear the Noble Viscount disclaim this par-
tiality and favour. He would give him ample credit for his
averment in spite of all the appearances to the contrary ;
he would give him credit for not teeming t ) extend
such favour. But then, whether the Nub'e Viscount
meant favour or not, some how or other favour was
shown. Tee Noble Marquis near him did not mean
anything of the sort ; yet It so happened that in a docu-
ment givee to that House by the authority of the No-
ble Marquis when he was Celenial Secretary, a certain
Roman Catholic functionary in Canada ear called the
Bishop of Quebec. No doubt it was dote quite inad-
vertently, but t indicated the manner in which such
things were regarded. At the cepitulation of Quebec,
one of the points required on the part of the inhabitants
was that the Bishops of Quebec should be of the Roman
Catholic community. The Legislature laugtel at the
i
very notion, and every attempt which was afterwards
I made to establish a Roanan Catholic Bishop had totally
f i1ed.,..0a ewe pce,a,iiun
.4u.,individual Who bad rassurued
1 that title under tireesinChorifof the Pope, had a seven:
1 reproof administered to him by Lord G Isbciough.
Yet the Cchnial Office of the present clay did not
scruple to recognize a Roman Catholic functionary as
Bishop of Quebec. He (tie Bishop of Exeter) thought
• it a great misfortune, that when the 1 act admit a )1,)
Bishop died his suce,ssor did net assume the title,
but he was only called the Bishop of Montreal,
and the Government recognised a Rowan Catholic as
the Bisl op of Quebec. Th e shout' at least be aware
of these things, that they might be prepared to meet
the enemy. This ordinance mutt, in some way or
other, be blotted out of the legisiation of Canada. The
Act of Union passed last year, was in the very teeth
of this ordinance. By that statute, the consolidated
fund of the province was charged with the payment to
her Majesty of two several sums of 45,0001. and
30,0001., for tee several services and purposes named
in the schedu es. Then it went on to say, that so long
as the said sums should be payable, they should be ac-
cepted instead of all territorial and other revenues then
at the disposal of the Crown. In what he said upon this
subject, he was supported by the spirit of the first Re.
port of the Canadian Commission, in 1837. Tire Rev.
Prelate read a paraeraph from the speech of Lord
Gosford, on opening the Le.gislatute of Lower Cauads,
in which he promised tie give up all the King's casual,
territorial, and hereditary revenues, nn condition of
being granted w Civil List—and in the rppendix to
that appeared a list of what was proposed to be given
up ; and in atticle 10 in that appendix, was the cl jai
of the Crown to the scignories of Montreal. That
appeared in the Report of the Commissioners. Now
he would ask, was that either fair—nay, be would ask,
was it honest ? Was it what would be dune
between man and man in decent common life ?
first propose to give it to one party, and their turn
round and give it to another?—(Hear.) The Noble
Viscount might think that there was no danger in this,
but_of Lite they had found that unions did not always
give satisfaction ; that even after forty years, much
agitation prevailed against a union with which there
was not one particle of fraud connecte I. Now what
might be the case in Canada? The people of that coun-
try would have no shadowy grievance to complain of—
they would feel it in their purses, in their religion, in
all that man held dear ; they would feel the bad f iith
which would be dealt to the Canadians if the ordiraece
were passed into a law. if common honesty and common
sense had anything to do
,with the question their
Lordships would comply with the psa;er of the petition,
unless the Noble Viscount could satisfy them that in-
justice would be done by it. It was for their Lordships '
to consider how deeply they would be responsible for the
frightful evils which might and would flow from the
measure, if, when he called upon them for a vote,
they allowed the ordinance to become law. When
that time came be would call upon them to deal
with it as a Bill on their Lordship's table, without
who e concurrence it could never become 1:w. The
British population of Montreal called it a fraudu-
lent invasion of the rights of properte, and had they
urged it still further, a .d called it a manifest and di-
rect violation of the compact, he thought they would
have bt en right. They who urged that it was a viola-
tion of good faith, and well they might, for it was these
teens, who, at the risk of their lives, and by their valour
acrd virtue, at a time when tie parties connected with
the Seminary of St. Sulpice, endeaveured to wrench
the province from the British Crown—it was these
men who had secured that province to Great Britain.
Their Lordships would bear in mind that the time
chosen for passing Unit ordinance was when there had
been a negative of that system of representation. to
which they were entitled. Tire subject was a grave
one, and should be gravely at:ended to. 'f he Governor-
General himself had edrn:tted that the ordinance
w
notu o
n h
a good one,te
obligationsand that
it had
of be Crow
n•
ro reluctantly
Who
forced
pwas
the Governor-General ? Undoubtedly he wast a
wereelae
of great ability and taler.t, d
entitled to respect, but and
waswhosegot c cotssknown
atomtleraesmutheywthhiacthobrdaidnacnocme
come
alone.und er e
t.
iheai had
Clergy
consideratione c o tp nt
Reservese a e d
last Session. He alluded to the
They did not then hear anything of
(Canada) Bill.
wouldt Ireo b n although their Lordships
' 111. a name never fto be
consented g
itNne favour
the Roman Catholics
mentioned lrigecaot
vlivol'ie.ntchs
re free exercise of their religion, sent a message to
t°otufhttalli:oGniCone ur:rr,fwew Canada,he n hs
eo
the
asking them to make a grant of land (his
property) for the support of the Protestant E,tiablish-
went.- Parliament did so, and there was the obligation
of the Crown recognised. That did not, 110%,,,,tr,
ape
pear so stringent to the Governor-General as the other
obligations to which he alluded, nor did itpreivleadntbleriemn
from setting at naught all those rights which
consecrated and acknowledged by the oath of the Sove-
reign. Ha rejoiced to say that that example had Le n
followed by his late Majesty William IV. who had sect
down a message to the Legislature of Canada, desiring
them to make some arraseeeeneets to put an end to the
differences about the Clergy Reserves, and stating
therein thot be was bound, no less by personal feeling