The Sun.
London, England, 1824-05-25 00:00:00

311-101

The Bill was recommitted; and on the motion for the House
going into the Committee,
Mr. MABERLY said, although the Chancellor of the
Exchequer bad given up.many objectionable parts, the Bill was
yet of a nature to demand- the 'greatest consideration. It had
two objects ; first, the altering of the Malt Duty, and next, the
throwing open of the Peer Trade. But still it continued a most
vexatious duty ; and even the proposed reduction only went to
take off the duty from one kind of beer to put it on another.
With regard to the Beer Trade, the Bill was opposed by many
Brewers and Victuallers, who declared that it would be their
ruin. He was in favour of free trade ; but he wished to he
cautious in disturbing capital, which had been embarked for
several years in property of this nature under the authority of
law. All that these persons required was an investigation,
before their interests. were destroyed. That this inquiry might
be effectually made, he should move that the present Bill be
recommitted that day six months; but he repeated, he should
-do so only to prepare for a proper inquiry. He had no interest
of a personal nature in the question ; but he did not wish to
see vested- interests unfairly dealt with; and indeed in this
case, lie really thought few people wourd be able to avail them-
selves of the liberty given by the'Bill. These people, it should
be observed, did not ask for compensation, but only to be
heard. He moved as an amendment, that the Bill be recom-
mitted that day six months.
Mr. DAVENPORT opposed the bill on account of its being
injurious to publicans.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the
arguments of the Hon. Gentlemen had already been discussed
and decided by the House. Be did not know about what the
Hon. Gentleman thought it necessary to inquire in a Commit-
tee, especially as he admitted that opening the trade would.
lower the price of beer. This was giving him (the Chancellor
of the Exchequer) the whole case for which he contended. As
to the argument about vested interests, it would apply at all
times, and if it were therefore allowed to prevail, no alter-
ation could ever take place. Besides, it was doubtful at this
moment whether, under the present law, a brewer could not
deal in beer by retail. Many individuals had trued to do so,
and being convicted for so dealing, their appeal to the Court
of King's 'Bench had led to a suggestion, from the Court, that
the law should be set at rest by a declaratory Act. The brewers
and publicans could not say that they were now taken by 'sur-
trise, as a Committee had been appointed on the subject two
years ago, which had frequently been brought under the notice
of the House since that period. The evils of the present system
were admitted, and the advantages which would follow from
the proposed Bill were not denied. He could not therefore
consent to the postponement of the measure, and he begged the
House to meet it with " Aye" or " No." He felt confident
as to the result, particularly as the Bill proposed measures
which would contribute to the comfort of the poorer classes.—
(Hear, hear!)
Mr. LOCKHART supported the Bill.
Mr. T. WILSON thought the interests of the 'brewers and
publicans deserved some consideration.
Mr. F. PALMER did not concur in opinion with the last
speaker, and thought the Bill as it now stood, would work a
considerable benefit to the community. There was no real com-
petition among brewers, except in the few instances wherein
the Magistrates did their duty.
Mr. CHARLES WHITBREAD assured the House his
opposition to the Bill was not caused by interested motives, but
by a regard to the rights of many of his constituents who were
brewers and publicans. lie should oppose the Bill.
Mr. Alderman Bit YDGES opposed the Bill.
Sir JOHN SE BRIG H T supported the Bill in order to
check the monopoly of Brewers.
Mr. CHA LILES CALVERT opposed the Bill.
Col. DAVIES also opposed the Bill.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL thought the Bill did not deal fairly
with Publicans; and he should therefore oppose it.
Mr. CURIVE'N thought the Bill was deserving of the sup-
port of every Member of the House.
Mr. MONCK also supported the Bill. It had actually
been proved that die Brewers brewed several kinds of beer,
the best for the free houses, over which they had no controul ;
and the very worst for their own houses. Mr. Barclay, the
great Brewer, had very handsomely offered to consent to open
the trade.
Mr. WODEHOUSE supported the Bill.
Mr. Alderman WOOD contended that the measure waS one
not calculated to benefit the people of England. So far from
relieving the poor, it-had a direct contrary tendency. If the
Chancellor of the Exchequer would put the duty on a quarter
of malt at 245. as lie had formerly held out, instead of 375. tid.,
it would be putting the question upon its right footing. • Free
trade ought to be established in every department of national
industry. It was absurd that there should be a free trade in
one article and not in another.
Mr. MONOK explained.
Mr. DENISON supported the amendment. His Honour-
able Friend °thy called for inquiry : he did not pledge himself
to any specific course of conduct or opinion. His object was
to reconcile the interest of the public at large to the measure,
to which in reality he did not object.
111 r. said, he thought this measure if passed would
be injurious to the interests of the public, and therefore' he
should oppose it.
Mr. CURTEIS said, that in compliance with the prayer of
the petitions which he had presented, lie should vote against
the Bill.
Mr. MANSFIELD supported the Bill, because it had been
altered from its original shape.
Mr. BUTTERWORTH said a few words, which were in-
audible in the Gallery.
The House then divided—
For the Pill - 99
Fur the Amendment - - 32
Majority in favour of the Bill - —67
The HoitSe..then went into a Committee on the Report.
Mr. MABERLY moved an amendment to a clause, to the
effect that Licences to Publicans be discontinued.
The CHANCELLOR of the EI:CHEQUER said he must
-oppose this motion, because he could not afford to give up two
hundred thousand pounds.
Mr. MABERLY said he only wished to place the publiean
-upon the same footing as all other trades.
The Gallery was then cleared for a division. After an ex-
clusion for a considerable time we were again admitted to the
-Gallery, no division having taken place. The Amendment, it
was understood, was withdrawn, and the clause was adopted.
The other clauses of the Bill were then agreed to, with cer-
tain verbal Amendments.
The House resumed, and the Report was ordered to be re-
ceived to-morrow.

COUNTY COURTS BILL.
On the motion of Lord. ALTHORP that this Bill be read a
third time,

Mr. SCARLETT rose to state his objections to the bill. It
was desirable that a summary mode should be provided for the
recovery of small debts, which would defeat the frauds now
practised. He differed from his Noble Friend as to the extent
to which the jurisdiction of the inferior courts ought to be car-
ried. If their powers were so augmented that debts of M.
could be recovered in them, he thought that would be sufficient.
His Noble Friend wished to allow the County Courts at pre-
sent held to remain for suits of replevin. These, however,
were very few, in some places not averaging more than one
a month.; and it could hardly be expected that it would be
worth any respectable person's while to bold such Courts for a
remuneration of 2s. 4d. each time, which was as much as could
be expected from suits of that description. Another objection to
this Bill was, that it was proposed to take effect from next July.
There were cases already in progress, and would be more, and
he wished to know what was to become of them. The whole
of them must be interrupted, and the costs already incurred
thrown away. These, however, were but minor objections. Had
these alone suggested themselves, he would not have opposed the
third reading of the Bill. He however objected to enabling
creditors to make recoverable such large SLIMS, as it was now
proposed, in a Court of Conscience. The law of England had
always considered the practice of allowing parties to be ex-
amined in.their own cases as holding out a temptation to per-
jury. By the common law of England, which after ail was that
which the peopleapproved most, a wiEness could not be examined
who was interested in the result of the trial. This was the grand
principle of the law of England, and the main foundation on
which the law of evidence rested. He would not object to debts
pot exceeding 5/. being recovered in courts of conscience, but
to advance at once to iO/. would in his opinion be a very dan-
gerous experiment. If, instead of this, a Bill were introduced
to effect the adaptation of existing courts, to lessen the expence
of proceedings in them, and to provide for the taxing of costs
by the:appointment-of
an assessor, that would be a different
measure, and would not excite alarm. But the Bill of his Noble
Friend, though it would seem to be such in title, did not bear
Ithat character. Instead of going to improve the jurisdiction
of these Courts, it went to introduce twenty new jurisdictions
and twenty new Judges to be appointed by the Crown, and
to him, therefore, it
that had been brought a peared to be the most important Bill
forward since he had had the honcur to
hold a seat in that House. The Bill had a clause which went
to make it perpetual, however inconvenient or injurious it might
be found- Appointingas it did, twenty new Judges, with sala-
ries of 8001. per annum each ;
if five or six yearn hence, it-
should be found an unwise measure, it would be no easy matter
to repeal it, so many would be interested in supporting it. He
considered that the additional patronage which it gave to the
Crown would make it perpetual. That patronage he did not
wish to see extendid. It had already largely increased, was in-
creasing, and ought to be diminished. Those who gained
these new situations would be looking out for something
better
by and by. The Judges' officers would be made the footstools
r
from which they would reach for other things, and these twenty
officeis would bc generally at the call of the
Crown, animated
by -a eon -of gratitude for favours to come, which was gene..