The Sun.
London, England, 1812-02-01 00:00:00

A REAL cußtsrmAs-Box.

A T this critical Season, whin Children are
Teething, they suffer more pain than at any time in the
year, very few escaping Convulsioni, it is particularly re_
quested of every Mother and Nurse that has young Children
n(lt to be without the AMERICAN SOOTHING SY-
RUP in the nurse; y, as it gives immediate relief.
Mrs. I UN SON, teeling for the root., at a 'time like this,
when so many ere out of employ, and bread so very dear, and
wishing to relieve those dear little sufferers, has given them
A real Christmas-box; by extending her ,charity one hour
longer, that is to say, from nine to eleven every Tuesday and
Satuiday morning until next March, and then as usual (while
the days are so very short, and hundreds live at a great dis-
tance, cannot get their children at lier house in time), they
must bring a letter from a respectable house-keeper that they
are real objects of charity.
Mrs. I. hopes .at the same time so great a charity will
nut be abused, as it is entirely out of her own private purse,
and trusts that persons who can a fti,rd to purchase the Syrup
will not injure the poor, by obyining what is intended fur
their relict.
To be had, wholesale and retail, of the Proprietors, I.
Johnson and Williams, 94, Newman .street, Oxford-street ;
and, by their appointment, Golden, 4Z, Cornhill ; Barclay,
Fleet-market ; Shaw and [Awards, St. Paul's Church-yard,
Butler, 4, Cheapside ; Newberry, and Son St. Paul's Churc-
hyard, and Dame-street, Dublin; Dicey and Sutton, Bow
Church.4.ard, and by all the principal Medicine Venders in
Town and Country, at as. 9d. a bottle, for Ready-money.

EL 1 P E 1.),1 1.1!1, E 217

HOUSE OF PEERS.

FRIDAY, JANUARY 31.

The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the
Woolsack about four o'clock, and, after Prayers
were read, some routine business was disposed 01.
An adjournment during pleasure then took place.
About five o'clock the House resumed, when
the two Exchequer Bills Bills were read a second
time. •

The Sngar Importation, and the :Malt Duty Bills,
were read a third time, And passed.
The Royal Household Bill was brought up from
the Commons by Mr. LLISHINGTON and other Mem-
berl, vnd read a first time.

The Earl of LIVERPOOL, on the Bill being read a
first time, moved " That the Bill be printed," and
acquainted their Lordships with his intention to
move the second reading of the Bill on Tuesday
next.

Mr. LUSHINGTON also presented the Household
Officers' Bill, which was read a first time and or-
dered to be printed.
Some accounts were ordered, on the motion of
the. Earl of LAUDERDALE, but from the irregularity
that prevailed below the Bar, which space was un-
commonly cr,wded, we could not learn the purport
with sufficient col reetness.

CATHOLICS OF IRELAND.
The order tor summoning their Lordships, being.
read,

Earl Ferzwt Weer rose for the purpose of bring-
ing forward the motion, of which tepeated weice
had been given by his Noble Friend (ford Gren-
ville).—A considerable portion of the Noble. Earl's.
seeecit, particularly the introductory part, was de-
livered in a low and rather faint voice, which pre-
eluded distiria audibility. He had come for and in
order to bring under the consideration of their Lord.
ships, one of the most important subjects, in all its
views and beatings, which could possibly call for
the attention of the Imperial .-Parliament. But
though momentous and important as the subjett was
at the time the notice was firat given, gteatly as it
pressed upon the eat ly and anxious attention of the
British Senate, yet he certainly little thought that
its peculiar importance, and the-necessity of a speedy •
investigation, would, be incalculably increased by the
view and consideratieps of circumstances of recent
occurrence, which were, lie believed, unprecedent-
ed in the annals of the country. The events and
circumstances to which he alluded, he could not
have entertained an idea of, when he first proposed
their Lordships being-called together for the objetis
he had in view. The proceedings to which he ad-
verted, went to shake the founiations of these great,
bulwarks of civil liberty; nay, to endanger the per-
sonal safety of the subject ; and, he believed, he
may venture to challenge the House to produce. any
instance of the kind in the judicial history of the
country, for the last century ; - they-militated against
the very principles by which the liberty of the sub-
jett was upheld. These proceedings rendered it
more imperatively incnmbent on their Lordships
to.censider the general subjeel, of which such pro-
ceedings.had now become a very proMinent and im-
portant part ; not only with a view to the security
of the undoubted rights of those who were most im-
mediately liable to be -atreated but with a view to
the point (hough occurring on the other side cif the
water), in the light of precedent and example.—
That House, particularly, could not not be too
feelingly alive or too vigilant on such an occasiun,
as the rights, the liberties, and the personal safety of
their fellow-subject at large, were implicated in the
consideration. The rightsof the people, wit h resped
to the purity of the trial by jury, he regarded as the
palladium of the public safety. The most anxious
and jealous care should be taken to provide. for and
assert the due and upright administration of that
most important branch of our judicial-system. But
a more regular opportunity would arrive for a de-_
jailed discussion of this part of the subject ; • for it
was one which must be considered; arid, he trust-
ed, when that day should-arrive, Parliament would
mark its strong and decisive sense of such proceed-
ings. The subjeal to which he had more regularly
and directly to call their Lordships' attention, was
one which involved the general state of Ireland;
and on that general ground he had •framed the pro-
position he should haVe the honour to submit. An
investigation of the general state of the country,
would best skew the real grounds that existed for the
loud and repeated complaints of grievance to which
their attention would be called; they would find
that a most serious " difference," at least he may
be allowed to call it, existed between the Govern-
ment and the people. By'the word people, he was
far from mewling. exclusively the mass of the popu-
lation, but the great body of the proprietors, and
men of consideration in the country ; and such a
state of things he must say existed in that country.
If not the original, at least the most prevalent cause
of this state of things was, as had been often and
frequently urged before, the deprivation of their
undoubted rights ; and until such .an alarming and
oppressive grievance should be redressed, they must
naturally expeCt that the subject would again and
again he_pressed upon their attention ; tor, without
such redress, they could not expect either harmony
of satisfaCtion that part of the empire. A great
deal was eipparenCy hid at the door of religious dif-
ferences of opinion, but he might be allowed to say,
that, in reality, and, in fade: not one particle of re-
ligious consideration could be fairly ascribed to it.—
This, he would venture to say, would be found the
case, when they came to examine; they would find
that difference in religious sentitnent had, in reality,
very little to do with it. But bewotild ask, couldieny
man be fairly and conscientiously kept out of his civil
rights—even of the common rights of subjeets, on ac-
count of the religious opinions be might entertain
But, he again repeated, it was no difference in reli-

gions-seirtithents that formed the ground; of I heeitclu..
slot] of Catholics from a due share in the representa-,
tion in Pat liament, and from tho-se various other un-
doubted rightS of which they were deprived. It
was idle to attribute ;t to the difference of opinion :
for instance, will: re,iped to the do6tiine of tran-
substantiation, it was impossible to say, that a man
could be a rcore true and loyal subjeet because he
believed that, insiead of his receiving the real bcdy
and blobd of Christ at ode of the sacraments, it was
done only
,in Commemoration'of the Saviour. The
Noble Earl here took a' short historical view of the
coodu& of the Elitist) Governments to their Catho-
lic subjects, especiatily in the eventful reigns of
Charles the Second and of William the Third. But
times and circuinstancs had_ most importintly al-
tered since-thOse eVentftil periods—there was now
no Catholic-Pretender to the Throne, nor did trOy
of those various objeaions upon which formerly
such stre's was laid, exist at present. The claims
of the Irish Catholics had been seriously consider-
ed and attended to in the Parliament of that coun-
try; they.had been in part recognized, awl a certain
pOition of justice afforded to them. Some of toeir
rights were .restored; but many of their molt im-,
portant rights were Still withheld ; the elective
franchise had been. accorded, bur they were
pee-
eluded from all share in the LeOiative power;
from all situations of command n the army amt •
navy. They should consider that by the wrasuro
of 'Union, that part of the Empire were &statue
of the superint, tiding care of their Parliaments, and
theyhad dow none to look up for redress, save that
arid 'rho other House of Pat liJnY t.t. Why should.
our Catholic fellow-subjects alone be pi-cc:Li:LA- ft oat
ion conown benefits of t,,e Con.;
stioatioo o w' live? As long as such a
consic.:-ablt , i,,ll3tion are kept inrsucti
a state, they. might exp'cted to com-
plain.. His oajeri was to briog this great and im-
portant consideration fully and seriously to the view
of Parliament.' • They would see the policy as
well as the justice Of affording some, among so
numerous a portion of their fellow-subjos, a chance
of being admitted into the Government".. of their
country. He saw no rational'difficulties Or obstacles
which now obtained to the speedy' consideration of
the subjett An investigation called for no less by
necessity and by policy thap strict national justice.
They'could never hope for a tranquil or satisfactory
state of things in Ireland, until the grievances ,of -
so gre.it a portion of her population were redressed ; -
a conSun=rination .which more than any thing else,
would tend to the happiness! the prosperity, and the
seCuritrOf-the Empire at large. The Noble Earl
concluded by moving, " That a Committee be ap-
pointed lo inquire Into, and consider of the state of
the affairs of Ireland."

The Duke of DEVONSHIRE in a first, but very
short though pertinent speech, seconded the mo-
tion. 1-leperteetly concurred in every thing that
had fallen from his Noble Friend. With him he
felt that that B,lbjea was ore which loudly called
for -the attention of the .House, and while things
were suit red to remain in their present state in Ire-
laud, they must expel to have irunceasiugly press-
ed upon their attention, Not only the justice and
chara6ter, but the safety of the country, was in-
volved in theconsiderstioh.

On the question being pot, •
• The Earl of Rosss declared his opinion, that nn.
thing which had fallen from the Noble Earl should
induce tite House to accede to the motion. With
the Noble Earl, however, he lainented
fist-
ing state of that part of Jhe United Kingdom.; and
no person could be more happy to contribute in ex-
tending to every branch of his Majesty': subjects all
that was desire:`, as -far as his convictions of pru-
dence and safety would admit. No o::e could be
more ready in recommending that Parliament
should - receive and attend to the petitions of the
country at large. For his part, he begged leave to
say, that,- attached as he was to all the people of
Ireland, of whatever religious persuasion they may
be, he must naturally be inclined to accede to any
measure which he really thought would tend to the
prosperity of that country, or the welfare and se•
curity of the empire at large. At the same time,..
he must say, . that he believed the present to b.! a
peculiarly improper time to accede to the motion
of the Noble Eat I. The pioposition:may be regard.
ed in a two.f,hi light ; first, as it went to conciliates
the Catholics of Ireland ; and, secondly, with a
view of casting a refiedion upon the present Go-
vernment of_lreland. In considering the subject,
the late conduct of the Irish Catholics formed a pro-
minentpoint. And first, he must say, he .deemed.
the Catholic Convention a proceeding ola vet), dan-
gerousnature ; but a point on Which the Noble Earl
laid great stress in the outset, was what was alleged
to take place respe&ing a Jury, and for this he MO
no foundation or authori y than vague report, or what
was stated in a. newspaper. \Vas it upon such an
hypothesis that august Assmnbly were called upon
to go into a Committee on the affairs of Ireland ?--
Were they proceed on so slight, so hypothetical
a basis ? Was there a single, document beibre theta
to prove tLe..alleged faits or did aa.y 'one Parlia-
mentary ground exist fqr bottoMing such an aigu-
merit ? The Noble Earl had asserted that no tone
should be lost in resorting to some measures. - But
he inuscaver that he adduced no solid or substan-
tial ground; for such an inquiry as was desired
The conduct of the Irish Government he must Lon-
tend, was s..clr as the exivenc;es of the crisis called
for ; if, indeed, they had acted otherwise they
would have betrayed a culpable want of prudence,
and' a shameful pusillanimity. Suppose there were
no other ohjedions, the cunduat,ot the •Cdtholici
was such, that if the Government did not interfere
as it had, they would themselves have eventually
become the victims: He deetned it unnecessary to
follow the Nobie Eirl over the ground he had Liken.
He would not so tar trespass upon their Lordships'
time, but woald direct their atteution to wiattlie.

te- seer to him to be the.main point. h was COLl-
feuded that the Irish Government had obstructed
the Catholics in the exercise of their constitutional
right of petitioning. If such were the case, then,
that Government would deserve at least, the cen-
sure of that House. But in tea the case was
widely different. The Catholics, undoubtedly, had
the same right to petition their Sovereign or the
Legislature which all their fellow •subjeas en-
joyed but what he insisted on, was, that the Irish
Government had. never attempted to interfere in
any proceeding of the Catholics which had the ob-
ject of petitioning fairly in view. The, lea was, that
they had thought fit to proceed to the formation of a
Representative Convention. Against a procedure of
-this kind (said his Lordship) the Irish Convention
had been more particularly framed. , 'I he Membess
of the House of Commons, and no other, were_ the
legitimate and.constitutional representatives of the
people. .What an-incongruity, at best, would it pre-
sent, to see one assembly affe&ing to speak the sen-
timents of the country, While another expressed
them in a manner diredly opposite! But the dan-
ger of suffering such an assembly to exist was the
more imporlartt consideration. Kid such an as-
sembly been suffered to continue till now, what de-
strudive consequences might not have ensued !
An assembly sieconscituied, if tolerated, might think
proper to discuss the questions of peace or war—s
the resoueees of the country, the taxes necessary for
the continuance of hostilities, and therability of the.
people to bear theM, the commerce, the exchangk
and the currency of the Empire.—All these topics
such a convention may proceed to discuss-; in.short
every thing discussed In Parliament might most utse
doubredly be debated in such an assembly. As to the
objection of its temporary duration, he would say,
if it were lawful to discuss therq one day, it would
be law lel to do so another, and so on to any_ number.
Such an assembly, if tolerated, might sit whether
Parliament were sittingat the title or not. No are
gurnents, however plausible, should, he contendes,'
be allowed to suffer a precedent' of so daegerOus and
destructive a .nature as the establishthent of such
a Ceneerition. No Government could long mains
tain- itself if such a system prevailed—no Govern-
ment in its- senses would suffer the existesce, still
lest the continuaiace of sot h an anomaly t--That of
'lreland, t tieref ere, had acted most prudently in nco
suffer tog such an assembly to continue organized in
the capital. It was necessary to put the exOtiog
laws in execution for the preservation of the State.
They were jusithed not only in the principle, bu! in
The mode of their conduct, as was amply illustrated
by'the proceedings of the Catholics. The procla-
Mation of the Duke of Richmond on one ctly, was
followed by that of Lord Fingal on the next. They
bad set then-Ist:lves is open hostility to the Govern-
ment of Ireland, which was unjustly blamed for
exciting discontents, While in fad they had only
enforced the laws of the country. Tire Noble
Duke at the head of the Irish Government would,
instead of meeting with censure, meet the applause
of every impartial man who had the opportuni.y
of observing the acts of his administration. His
'conduct, instead of being harsh or precipitate, was
rather remarkable' for its conciliation-and forbear.
ance, to the utmost bounds of prudence and safety.
He begged the House to recollect what was the
conduct of America when she was determined to
separate from this country ? Was it not the ores.
niz alien of . a representative convention ? What
was the case with reipeet to France the' other day ?
Was not an assembly of the States-General fir-t
called, and a National Convention immediately af-
ter'eards organized ? 'The dangers of suffering such
an A-symbly to have existence were incalculable,
and he telt that the Government of Ireland had
oily exercised its p .Wel; at a crisis when the safety
cf the State was seriously menaced ! Had it acted
otherwise; its supineness and pusillanimity would.
have been censurable indeed—it had enforced the
tews on which the safety of the State depended.—
Had it declined to do so, the case in bpth countries
would have been different, but infinitely Worse.
Increased murmurs, and multiplied alarmists would
have been one of the tightest consequences; but
as it was; he deemed them, instead of censure-and
reproach, deserving of the applause and gratitude of
the country. •

The Duke of &profit) strenuously supported the
motion. He considered what had been advanced
by the Noble Earl as not tending in the smallest
degree to do away the arguments and the fa& ad-
verted to by his Noble Friend. With respett to the
recent conduct of the Government of Ireloud, he
widely differed from him. An eulogium had been
pronounced on the Noble Duke at the head of that
Government. He trusted, however, it would be al-
lowed him, notwithstanding his near conneCtion
with that Noble Personage, to express himself as to
this particular point, of a different opinion. The
effects of the unfortunate measures of that Aduri-
nistt ation were too obvious, he thought, to allow the
merits of the question to be undecided. The actual
state of Ireland he too test, with his Noble Friend,
to be such as forcibly 10 Call lot the speedy iuiereo-
s.ition of the Government and Legislature of the
Empire. What was that situation ? w as a Ca-
tholic population under a Protestant Government.
Four-fifths of that population had to maintain their
own hierarchy and their priesthood, while the other
fifth were in possession of all the revenues and the
resources of the Government, to maintain and up-
hold their own establishments ! Under these cir-
cumstances, the Catholics had frequently approached
Piirliament in a supplicating attitude, for redress ;
with what effect was too well known. The discon-
tents of that country were to be attributed to the in-
toleraet spirit of those ‘vho now were vested with
the powers of Government. The objed of their
recent condua was, he thought, to induce the m re
effeet, and to give a charaa'r of dignity and solem-
nity to their proceedings. This object was Inettrat-
ed by the condua of the Iri.sh Government. Under
such circumstances, it would not perhaps be won-
derful if the Catholics of that country had acted dif-
ferently; but on the contrary, they had manifested
s most laudable moderation arid loyalty of temper.—
It should be recollected that the population of Ire-
land had long since been admitted to the elective
franchise, while the Catholic Nobles, Gentry, and
men of property are held unworthy of being the
representatives of their brethren ! While he had
the honour to hold a share in the Government of
Ireland, Le'did every thing ie his power under
these CI:COMSI3IIC,2;, to conciliate and soften their
condition ; Le toejured the House to consider the
situation in which so nuaneroes a portion- of their

fellow-subjeele were still held, and to ;ern !heir se-
rious attention to the critical situation in which so
valuable a branch of the empire was placed, in coo.,
sequence of such deprivations and the misconduct of
its Government. For this, the motidn-of his Noble
Friend afforded them a convenient opportunity. It
were a waste of their Lordships' time to expatiate
upon those topics. Instead of the harsh and hosti:e
syStem which was latterly adopted, they- should hold
out he olive branch and the hand of friendship.—
Such was the only way to unite all hands and pearls;
and such conduct u ould tend, more effectually than
any other, to promote, not only the tranquility and
happiness of- Ireland, but the best interest and se-
curity of the Empire at large.
The Err) of Atrearnette took a survey of the ge-
netak state of Ireland, in order to exemine what it
was which could so urgently call for au inquiry into
the condiiiou ot that country at the present moment.
What most forcibly snuck him, iii considering the
state of Irei.ind, was the tone and at titode v h:ch the
body of the Roman Catholics had assumed in the pre-
paration and limiter:lnce, as they called it,'of their
petition to ParliaMent. Was the present the proper
moment for pressing forward their .claims ? Was
their petition ready to be laid now betoteithe House?
Was it in the manner in e hich that petition was
prepared, ,or the circumstances that attended and
-marked -their meetings; Parliament was to discover
;qui nail that moderation, that torbearenceethat re-
sped for the laws, that vette:aeon for the I tws which
had so much and so frequently been the theme of
panegyric and applause with their advocates ? What
was the real object of the motion which the' Noble
Earl had this night -submitted to their Lordships'
consideration.? %Vete not the N •ble 'Mover and
those who supported him; anxious Tallier to extend
the inquiry into the whole conduct bf his Majesty's
Government—to can, ass and criticise their proceeel-
ings under all ilie-aspee.'s of that conduct ? Tles he
believed was the true motive and .object of the pre-
beat motion. Bei he had attentoely watched the
proceeding. of the Government in Ireland ; indeed,
the general measures of his Majesty's Government
both there and at home; and his humble opinion
was, ihat coudud not only was • not deserving of
blame, out wes highly entitled to cconendetion.—
it would be impertinent in him to detain their Lord-
ships with a detail of all-that had terently' passed in
Ireland. All that he would now take upon himseif
to say was, that in all their late proceedings, the
Coaduti of the Irish Catholics, not withstanding their
own, and the claims of their advocates- to tie praise
of moderation and forbearance, had every thing in it
that bespoke the very reverse, and appealed to him,
upon the whole, to be very reprehensible. They
seemed wholly to forget the many succeasiveondea•
yours which tad been made to improve aed melio-
rate their conditions; endeavours which the libera-
lity of their own Parliament, and of their Protestant
fellow auejeets, had carried as far as resped'for the
Constitution, and a due regard to its security, would
admit. Much had been said abeut the tights of
mankind—about rights of the Irish Catholics to
erivileees'arld immunities which they claimed.—
Will the' Noble Lords who start this question of
right, contend that the Irish Catholics can claim
these privileges and exemptions as a matter of right ?
Will they assert that the question of riset properly
belongs to the situation of the Irish Catholics ? if
they do, then must they aleo • beeprepared to assert
that it doeS not belong to their Lordships' liouse;
that neither this nor the. other House of Parliament,
. nor both together, have the right to impose restric-
tions on any class of men, even were those restric-
tions deemed necessaty for secuting persons and
property, and for the general goo.l and welfare of
the community at large. He should not enter into
minute discussion of the tendency and nature of re-
ligious optnions merely in their speculative farm.--
• He wished to consider them only as they might shew
themselves practically, and how far that practice was
or was not inimical to Government. Under this
point of view, he' would consider the Claims of
the Catholics; and ask what had been refused
to them; or, rather, what had not been granted
40 them within- the space of a very few yeare?—
And, after all these concessions of evlett did
they now complain, and what did they further re-
quire ? Their complaint, it seems, was now redOced
to this, that they were still precluded from holding
=fain offices in the State. On this point they were
at issue with Parliament, and would their advocates
contend that as a matter of right they could claim
an admissibility to those high offices, 'rids was the
real state of the question. .If that doarioewes yet '
up, • he for one would not . hesitate to declare that
such a doctrine was not tenable. He was as solici-
tous as any Noble Lord' could be fur the tetter im-
provement ot the coudition of Ireland. But would
the granting of the present claims of the Catholics
contribute in the least to that improvement ? He
thought not—neither could he see the danger of
withholding such a grant. At a distance,ssome ap-
pearances would indicate dangers. Those dangers,
however, diminish as you approached them, and va-
nish altogether upon a nearer view.. The Noble
Lord then pteceeded to vindicate the late condua of
the Irish Government, and to shew that the spirit
which animated that conduct was in no respeEt hos-
tile to the right of petitioning, or to.any other right to
which the Cat holies had a fair claim? Where then were
grounds of the invealives which the Noble Duke
(Bedford) had -heaped 'upon the-conduct of that Go-
vernment towatds the Roman Calle-Axe?' What pre-
judice or severity had been manifeSted with respect
to them ? Were not the persons of the Roman Ca-
tholics held as sacred, and was not their property
kept as secure as those of their Protestant fellow-sub-
jects ? Let the Noble Duke adduce one instance of
flagrant partiality to A ards Protestants, and of•preju-
dice and severity against the Catholics, and he would ,
then acknowledge there were some grounds for in-
quiry. Let it even be shewn that the operation of
the Convention Act would be less injurious
to the Protestants than to the Catholics, if the
former -should act in violation of that laW. If
the Protestants, under the pretence of pethion-
ing the King or Parliament, or any other pre=
tence whatsoever, should delegate and assertible 500
persons of the first respeelability and weight among
them ; if that assembly were to meet and deliberate,
and thus form a representative body, independent of
the Legislature, would the Government pe justified
in allowing such proceeding to go on without inier-
ruption ? Was not such, however, therecent con-
duet of the Irish Catholics; and was their condual,
contrary as it was to law, and pregnant as it might
have proved, with the most dangerous consequences

to the State, to be allowed to pass unnoticed and un-
yenecked ? That indeed would be an instance of
6lind-and'extraordinary partiality and favour towards
the Roman Catholics: -*Tbe Noble-Lord next enur-
ed into -a vindication of the late judicial proceedings
;in Ire! ind, and contended that it was the indispen-
sable duty of the Courts to proceed as they had done,.
It was not surely to be allowed, that pit tuies of se-
dition were every day to be exhibited with impunity,
ithout any interference on the part .ot„any of the
Constituted Authorities of site Country ; that would
unquestionerly nut be the surest means of improv-
ing the condition of Ireland. No! the pfmperity
and happiness of the United i(ing tom would only
be promoted by mutual sacrifice., by reciprocal for-
bearance, and by the hai loony of the exertions and
energies of both, as cordially. co-operating against
the machinat'otor and the violence of the common
enemy. Such being the impression of his mind
he must vote against the motion for a Corniniitee
of Inquiry.
The- Duke of BEDFORD briefly explained the
nature of his charges against the risk Govei nowt) t.
The Marquis of Dow NSH I RE insisted that nothing
had been done towards improving, the state of Ire-
land; but that every measure of -late, particularly
the measure of the Union, had greatly tended to 'de-
teriorate her condition, to hurnule her pride, to sap
the foundations of her prosperity. In being de-
prived
of her Parliament, it was not One privation
alone that Ireland had suffered. That privation lud
involved many other severe and degrading priVations.
It deprived her of her metropolis; it deprived her
of her name as a kingdom ; it deprived her of h• r
nobility ; privations which of themselves are suffi-

dent to sink the. spirits and unnerve the energies of

a people. It moreover tended to drain her of her
money by remittances to absentees, and thus de.

prived her not only of the example and influence
which a Nobiiiiy and Gentry are wont to exert over

a country, but also of the advatita4e of resources
which were (haw') from her soil. Indeed, in every
point of view in which the ineasnre of the Union
could be contempl ited, it would appear with disad-
vantages and degradation to Irel ind, instead of be-
nefits.. It promised great advan ages to the Catho-
lics, to induce them .tu concur in promoting the
measure, and repaid that concurrence with'disap-
pointment and ingratitude. Instead of mutual con-
ciliation, it
,only begot disaffection and ill-will; and.
in' every respett it could only be -looked upon.a,s_a
nominal union. Such, it appearing to hint to be
the condition. of, Ireland, lie could not but support
any motion that had for its object to better that
condition.
The Earl of HARDWICKI d, fended the conduct
of the different Governments of Ireland for a num-
ber of years ,past. Most of them had been marked
by concessions and indulgence to the Catholics.
Out of thee concessions fresh claims and demands
seemed to gibw—though they were granted, they
were expected to afford eniiie satisfaction, and to
put a stop to any further solicitations. In the year
1793, the Elective Franchise, and the right of ac-
quiring property were conceded to the C stholics—
and it was then Understood on all - bands that the
spirit of concessSon had gone to its fullest length.
No one could rejoice more than he did at the repeal
of the penal laws ;. but there must be 'some point at
which a stand was necessary to be made. He cc:mid
see no possible advantage in instituting an ioquicy at
the present moment into the state of- Ireland. The
granting of a Committee fur that purpose would be
only to throw censure on the Governitent of Ire-

land, which their conduct was far from deserving.
la other respects, he did not consider the proem
time and circumstatices as season 'tile and propitious
for the agitation of these• questions. lie must tie:re-
fore oppo3e the motion of the Noble Earl.
Lord SOMERS and Lord Viscount St-DMOUTH rose
at the same time, when, after a pause, the Lord
Chancellor called on Lord Sidmouth.
Lord SIDMOUTU said, that he feared that on the
present occasion he should not be able to do justice
to his own feelings. He derived, however, much
• satisfaction from what had fallen from two Noble
Lords who had preceded him. With the one (Earl
Aberdeen) he concurred in considering the present
question as one of t he deepest importance; with the
other (Earl Flardwicke), he agreed in thinking, that
after the concessions made to the Irish Catholics -in
1793, that concession had then gone its utmost length,
and that there a stand ought to have been made. But
he must differ from t hese Noble Lords in the view they
took of the consequences that might arise to this
country from any opposition to further concessions.
The Noble Earl who brought forward the motion
seemed to think that mote had been granted to the
lower 01-40FS of the Catholics than to the higher
That the higher classes, the Nobility of that per-
suasion, were still. deprived of the rank and pri-
vileges which they were entitled to enjoy, while
many advantages were derived by the lower order of
-Catholics, from the concessions already made to
them. Yet to both, it had beeneargued,belonged.
the right of such concessions. They were not to
be matter of dissussion and deliberation, they ()tight
to be acknowiedged-asmatter ofriglite-This.quest
of right, it was. not necessary for hi'm to examine
and discuss. His Noble Friend (Lord Aberdeen)
had, in hi: opiniou, ceuipletely settled and disposed
of that querniore Indeed, it wieetforeas his Noble
ht iend had observed, teat such a doctrine w3as. wholly
untenable. V Teat doctrine, had, howevere been- set
IT in that How by -very high authorities. , They
argued that4the.conces,ions called fOr by tfie Catho-
lics, should be granted to sheen as matter of right ; -
while at the same time, it- w ar contended, that the
higher orders of the Catholics were deprived of the
pritaleges they should enjoy, while all the conces-
sions were in favour of tne lower circlets of that .per-
suasion. This, in his opinion, was forming a strange
notion of a right. He imagiued that where there was
a right, there could be no distinction of per sons; that
it was the very essence of a free Constitution, that
where there was a right, it should be equally enjoyed
by all descriptions of persons living under the same
'tree GArernment, by the higher orders as well as the
lower, and vice versa. When the improvement end
mehdiation of the condition of Ireland was sought
Aftet, it was the condition of its peasantry w bids it
should be our study to improve. Among them idle-
ness and ignorance still-prevailed, and as 101rg as they
were exposed to the influence of these vices, their
cOirdi:ion could not be imploved. kje had never
been a iriend to the penal laws by which the people
of Ireland had been oppressed. It was a vicious
system 1, and he agreed with Mr. Burke, that, that
systent had at one time been carried to a vicious per.

fection. 'Such a policy he deplored ; detested the
extreme to which had been carried, But while he
deplored such a policy-, he could not but acknow.
ledge the fatal necessity which gave it, birth, and
referied for his justification on this head to the
• spirit and the 'practice which prevailed among the
Irish Catholics at the period to which he alluded.
Thy laws which we're then enacted, had only for
object the security of property. But he was sorry to
be obliged to say, that mischievoiss-iii-
and effects still comitored. They were to be found in
the idleness and ignorance of the peasantry, as.he_ lad
already observed ; out that evil was not to be .rerrie;•
died by granting io the higher orders of the Catholic
persuasion the pi ivileo°es and rank to which they were
said to be.,eutitled.-• Was it for such an object that •
the Howse was caged ugon to go into a Committee
of Inquiry ? What other grounds had there been
f r -the necessity of such an inquiry at present ?
The Noble Viscount then proceeded to consider the
conduct of the Irish Government, and of the Nobly:
Duke at the head of that Government. There was
not the least cotter for any of the charges made
against that Government. Above all, no blame
could be attached to the Noble Duke, with .whoSe
generous; humane, and gentle nature, he was well
lacquainted;. a nattne that would never allow him to
oppress an individual, much less a large description .
of his fellow-subj-cts. But why was such a motioo
.as the present deferred till now ? Why has there
been no necessity for it doling the last eleven pars?
Much had been said of the wisdom, the Moderatior,'
the patriotism of the Catholics on various occasions
during that period; yet it never hag he-n thought
necessary till now to adduce tee display of these vir-'
• tura as a ground for granting a Column-tee of In-
quiry. But it seems that some Noble Lords Ntquld
have all the laws repealed ui.on which perhaps der
pend the security of property. Ye., have them all
repealed; and yet talk of no sei-urities in• their
room. The House did not now even hear of the•Filo.
Yet such counter-securities were no doubt abso-
lutely necessary; should not the King tie made at
,•
I least a co-ordinate power with the Pope—Out would
the Catholics agree to this ? Would their Hierarchy
submit to this ? be believed nut. Wink such a
slate of things remained, he must dread not only the
opinions, but the murals of the. Catholics. Ile cooli
not. consent, without due provisions !Or the safety •
of the present estahlishmeot, to place in the hands
,4f the. Catholics high militaty arid legislatite
autho-
rity. He could not assent to this equalizing of reli-
gions.- He could not assent to see the symbols and •
attributes of authority carried one day to Church')
and the next to Mass. The union of Church and
State should ever be held sacred by him. Thef '1
were inseparab'y united, and every thing would bay.
risked by the dissolution of that union, of that most..
sacred alliance:—From its dowdfall, the most dread-
ful political convulsions and every other species of
misery might justly be apprehended. With
an impression on his mind, be could vote for no-
thing that had so fatal a tendency; he must there-. •
fore oppose the motion of the Noble
• Lord H.AanwtCKE briefly. ex"plaineaif.,.-:
Lord SomERS, in a speech' ot co::siderable leng!h,
:supported the ,ruotion, and urged the expeoienq of
consols ing with_ the wishes ul the &mho' CatholicS
of Ir. land. r
•

..
AIaNnii:WELLESLEY then rose and Y poke to 0:6
following 'effect :—" My 'Lords,' I am fully awsie
of the magnitude and importance of the subj of
submitted to your Lordships' consideration, by the ,
motion of the Noble Earl who originated this clil-
cussion. lam thoroughly convinced dist a Ands'
tion of greater' conseqnence to the welfare and
prosperity of this empire could not be . made th'!
subject of debiteln this House, w ht.:titer it be coo'
•siderecl with fespea to the extent of the intercsi,s.,
immediately at issue, or with respect to the elt.O.
•the dtcisiou may haVe upon the means, the le'
sources, and energies of the country, at thi4
most awful crisis. A subject of such moment
must at any time, and under any "ciicurnstanceso
claim and command the serious attention of p‘ir4
liament ; .but from your Lordships, who are Le
gislators by virtue of your birth, and are rouse'
quently hereditary Counsellors of the Crown, 3
question of this nature is entitled to the. nicri
impartial and deliberate consideration.' Wliefl,
I look to it as it presents itself to ',our 1164.
, lice, I cannot consider it in any 'other light that}
as a subject as deeply interesting to the Wei'!
fare and prosperity of the country as any which hos.
tver oct;„upied the attention of -y. ur. Lordship*i
However I may differ, with the Noble Earl who 104'
brought it under our view, notwithstanding the ex-i"
gency of the, occasion, I am still of opinion, th ir d
it has been brought forward, it ought to -nu& rg°
an' impartial and dispassionate discussion, aCcord4
to the
.wise practice of Parliament upon allmatteo '
of such high aisd setiotis interest. Ii we are to eLr
tertain the question at all, vie should discuss 0
parts with temper, and decide upon its merits with.
impartiality; we'should alwas bear in mind the e!'.
fed that our deci,ion may have upon. the passions! •
,the feelings, the prejudices-even, and the ireeresto
of-.t4se great bOcty of then who will be ariemed bY'
it.: In this slew of .the case, and in order that .04'
way arrive at that fair, tinbias.ecl, arid dispo''
sionate result, which, up m every ground of polio
anti Jilsti.e, it is oar duty to protno:e, it is, in roi .
opinion, the dirty of 'your 'Lpldsilps, I),_ tore y,4
.co ne to any. decision upon the motion of titi:-
.Noble Earl, it') take into your consideration—firs!,
What the eti--ec..t of your vote may he on ..th',- tat`'
of Ireland as :it exists and is at present adinins'
iered in that eounity—secondly, What the et1...0
may be upon ille.ditPrent br.inchel-61 the executive
gotertimeut of that country, as connected with the
administration of the law, and with a view- to the
preservation -of tie tranquility of that country---4
. thirdly, What effect it may hive upon the remperi.
the calm, sober, and dispassionate feelings of the
people of that country, to which we should at alt
times pay proper attention, 'whenever we proceed
to the discussion of such subjetts-'---re'elings, the best
that can emanate from.the human heart; of which
trust I have ever been sensible, and on all occasioo
proud, and which I base manifested every disposi;
lion' to appreciate, as well on ' former otcasionS, .
when the Catholic Question. has been agitated, ow
in the recent instances of its discussion. The-
feelings to which I allude, are the true. . Sources of
afar rfational glory, and upon „them, in my opil
Mon, rests, trot alone the security of the Empire,"
but the preservation of all those blessings whieli-Wei
now possess; or can hope hereafter to enjoy, in..
chiding the protection and security of the Protestaa

Establisllttents in Churcl end Slate. Ravirtg
stated thus much generally upon the importance of
the question under consideration, and the claim it
presents to our tnost serious and deliberate atten-
tion, I shall now proceed to make some obser-
Vations upon the speech of the Noble Esti (Fitz-
William), and the reasons urged by him in support
'of his mutton. In the first place, then, I must ob-
serve, that he has placed in the front of his argu-•
'lnent, a statement, taken from a newspaper report,
of a transaction, said to have taken place in Dublin
on a recent occasion. Wear foundation there in ry
be fur that report, I cannot take upon me to decide"
but this I will say, that as I never saw, nor read
the newspaper statement to which the Noble Earl
has alluded, I neither knew nor heard ahy thitig of
The transaction to which it refers, ell I learned it
frosts the speech of the Noble Earl. Tar use
Shade of the report, by the Noble Earl, was ex-
actly what it was intended to give rise to; an insieti-
&llion against an Otlicer employed under the Irish
Governtnert, of an intention, on his part, to
procure an unfair return of the panel of a Jury.
I am not nware how that fact stands, not having
heard any thine of the cirsumstances till I heard it in
this House ; but I must add, that I have also heaad
that the objection upon weich the insinuation was
founded has been subsequently over-ruled by the
COUrt. I! the Noise Earl had been apprised of this
eircumsrance, or of other circumstance s, which
.1 unders'and also to have since taken place, he
would have discarded the consideration trout
relnd, and not thought it befiteng the dignity of
Your Lordships' proceedings to make it the ground
of any proposition to be submitted for you: consi-
deration. This, then, being the case, I will ask
Noble Lord, whether he thinks a common
newspaper report a sufficient reason to induce your
Lordships to go into an iequrry into the stele of
Ire land ? Does the Noble Earl really think so ?
'Or can any of your Lordships entertain the no-
tion 14 a single meinent when you consider
titat the foundation of every cavil was removed
by the decision of the Court, arid that this was
followed up by other circumstances which, it
known to the Noble Earl, would have prevented
Lin from adverting to such an authority in the
Manner he has done ? For my own part, I must
say, that I do not consider this a sufficient ground
for going into an inquiry into the state of Ireland.—
..then the Noble Earl has made this the subject of a -
'charge against the Governmeet of Ireland. Uron
this point I -aye only to state, that it I had:iieard
one word tending to convict that Government of
any implopsr interference bst.veen the Subject
and the Crown, or the People and the Parlia-
tuent—if th -r• was a tittle of evidence to that
fgfect, Or that could shew, by any act, directly er
indirectly, that Government had interposed its au-
thority for the purpose of preventing the exercise of
the legitimate right of the subject to petition—or
if in any of the measures which the Government
aelt it necessary to take upon the ocsasion, any
()Pinion whatever had b-eu given upon the subject
11)1 the Catholic claims, or the merits of their in-
!ended Petitions, I shoull conslctrr that Govern-
Nent unworthy of the support of the Government
of this country, and undeserving of the approbation
,s 1 the public But Ito such step has been taken.
No impediment has h-en thrown in the way of
ri4ht of the Subject to petition the Clown
cr the Legisla ore. When time q esiion arose re-
todeeting the construction and application of the
C.:oneention A 61,, it has been at all times made a dis-
tind and separate c ,nsideration from any thing cons►
Netted with the right of petition. It has been so
considered by the Uoverntrent, and so alegutd so-
lemnly and gravely, and repealdly, by all the
Crow Lawyers in Ireland, in all the pleadings and
forensic discussions which have taken place upon this
fiubject. An all times—on all occasions, and under
all ,ircurnstances, the right of the subject to petition
has been studiously and carefully excluded from all the
adverse deliberations and discussions of the question
P! issue. In the name of his Majesty's Servants
therefore, and on behalf of the Irish Government,
I wish to deny strenuously and positively that any
charge, such as that bought forward, justly lies
gaiesi its conduit generally, or its particular mea-
sures. I ant perhaps lite more anxious to give this
bold and positive denial to the charge, because, as
may well be supposed, I must feel parti, ularly in-
terested in any charge affecting that Governmeet.
I am thoroughly persuaded, besides, that such a pro-
ceeding is not only contrary to the feelings, sen-
tiMents, and principles of the Noble Person ige at
the head of the Irish Goiernment, but peculiarly re-
liugnant to the habits and principles of the person
who was his chief ad. tser on the occasion adverted to.
I sin persuaded that nothing could be more abhor-
rent from the nature or feelings or disposition of that
Person, than to star d between his fellow-subjeas
411L1 the Legislature, and if I had no other giound fur
the couvittion I feel respecting the purity of ttme
motives which aetuate the Noble Duke at the
head of the Irish Government, thee his conducl re-
speeting the Catholic claims, I am satisfied that he
Would be the last person to interfere between agree,
le,speSitable, and respected class of his fellow-
`'eth.teets, and the Sovereign or the Legislature. But,
113 I have before stated, in point of fati nu such in-
ter ference took place. The construction and appli-
cation of the Convention Act, which the Irish Go-
verr men( felt itself called upon to adopt and en-
force, has been learne tit by the concurrent DIA-
. olfins of all the Law Officers of that country, and
liattationed by the unanimous decision of the Judges
of time Court of King's Bench. The impression of
the Irish Government then was, that a Convention,
such as that proposed to be assembled by the Ca-
tholics, was contrary to law. Measures were there-
fore Liken to prevent the eleelions which were on
the eve of taking place. If the constitution awe!'
an assembly was illegal, the at of procuring elec-
tions of Member! to compose ii must have been con-
trary to law, and the Government was fully justified
in the measures which it resorted to with a view to
Prevent their taking place. For my part, without feel-
tug it necessary to enter into that part of the subject
at present, I am prepared to say, that, as well in the
circumstances in which the Convention Act was
passed, as those in which it has recently been
Put in force, the measure was equally wise and ne-
cessary. 1 remember well the occasion, and all
'the awful characteristics of the moment, when the
Measure was first brought forward. I remember,
too,
`that at the time, it had time sanction of the appro-
Asation of the late Mr. Fox. Su strong was my
k ease of its pro?tiety and urgency at that time,

that, fltraagh t was then in opposition to the rash
Got erament of that days I gave the measure my
cordial support, , because I considered it indispens
sahly necessary to the security and preservation of
the touutry. The opinion of that great Statesman
(Mr. Fox) to which I have belOre alluded, was,
that if the people of Ireland were to be allowed to
form a convention, such as that which was then in
coreemplation, consisting , tan assembly so consti-
Reed, arid grow,ng out of the concerted forms of
election, that nothing conld be expelled to result
from it but an immediate and dangerous interrup-
tion to the tranquility of the country, and a long
train of all possible mischievous consequences.
The Convention Act was consequently passed,
and the effect was, that it immediately put
down those dangerous assemblies which 'threat-
ened so much mischief to the interests of the
nation. When similar assemblies were about to
be formed in Ireland, in the recent instance, •
the Government felt it necessary to put this
Aet in force. It did so for the security of
the country, and if the Irish Government be to
blame in any respect, it is that in sutiering some
progress to be made in the eleciions,which it should
have prevented; it was, so far from being severe,
rather more lenient than it ought. Yet it way v<ell
be supposed prudent in that Government to have
abeained trout any exercise of its power, till the
evil bad increased to such magnitude as to call for
its inierf:trence..,But when this was the case, did the
Government resort to the execution of the law with •
out notice or communication to the pirties ? No
such thing. A private adramition was most pro-
perly and decotou-ly sent to the leaders of the
Catholic party, apprising them of the illegality of
the course they were inirsuing, and, at the same
time, iutimating the determination of the Govern-
ment to enforce the law. This admonition prov-
ed ineffectual, c easequently a Proclamation was
issued by the Government, declaring what the
law was, and announcing the intention of Go-
vernment to put it in force. What was the con-
sequence? That the Catholics proceeded with
their elections to the proposed assembly, that
they deliberately continued their violations of law,
and that the Government of Ireland had no alter-
native, but to suffer tie law of the land to be violat-
ed with, impunity, or to put down the Catholic
elections to a convention, by emorcing the pro-
visions of the law. Do s any Noble Lord entertain
a doubt upon the subject, let hen look to what
has taken place to remove every d übt —let hint
look to those legal proceedings which supply so
many brilliant specimens of the oratory of the Irish
Bar, and to the grave and learned opinions pro-
nOunced seriatim, but concurrently, by the dis-
tinguished personages we', till the bench in the
Court in which the proceedings took place. It the
taw then be as I have stated :t, if tile Catholics, bs
persevering in their purpose of elecitog represen-
tatives to an illegal assembly violated that law—
and if the coneerrent opinions of the Bar and the
Bench, and the unani:noes decision of the Ject.es,
be a satisfactory expos' ion of the sette of the ore",
what eround is there, I N ill ask, upon this view of
the case, for your Lordships to go into an inquiry
into the State of Irelai d- ? \Vey ore we to be called
upon to institute so solemn and important a Parlia-
mentary oroceediog, as it tee Geiernrnent of Ire-
land had been guilty of s The gross tiolation of the
Law and the Constitution-a-as if the persons in
power in that Cotautty, had abused the authori y
of office to tbe oppression of the subjea, and to the
eattinctyJn of his legit mate rights, and the seopres-
%ion of his 'Privilege of complaint by p oition—as
if time Judges, instead of being the impartial admi•
nistrators of the law, had put arbitrary construc-
tions upon its enactments, • with a view to harass
individuals, and wrested their obvious weaning,
for the purpose pandering tat she arbitrary passions
of the Goverritneni—a; if the Irish Administration
had really interfered 0 the great right of the
subject to petition, or had made any iniquitous at-
tempt, by the weight of i s authority, t•• crush the
Catholic claims? Unless these chat get can be made
out against the Government of Ire4m.l, I can never
bring myself to consent to the-inquiry now propos-
ed; and upon this impression 1 feel it wholly lin-
postebte to accede to the motion of the Noble Earl.
But I cannot t unclode what 1 h ive io say upon this
part of the case without adding, that I cannot. con-
ceive any injury that would be greater—any pro-
ceeding that would be more likely to produce
the mischiefs which it was the object of the •
Convention Act to prevent, than to suffer the Ca-
tholics to proceed, to assemble their Convention
contrary to law. And I most al wat s cement!,
that in the admonition given to them by the Go-
verurnent, a course had berm taken which was most
salutary to their own cause. Could any tiiing, I
will ask, be more likely to atfea the final success of
their application to the Legislature than the perse-
verance in a cundua whice was in direct eppusition
and resistance to the declared intentions of Govern-
ment, expressed in alormal Proclamation, annumic-
ing the state of the law, and nelifying the intention
to enforce it ? The Convention ACa, I will adorn,
was not passed against Catholics, or any other p irti-
cular class of .übjetts, but against the coininueity
generally, or such portions of it as may be disposed
to form such conventions as it was the purview of
the law to put doWn and prevent. It applies equally
to all classes, and was intended altogether for the
purpose of preventing any step being taken fur the
purp 'se of forming assemblies injutious to the pab-
lic Safety. Having taken this %tea/ of the principle.
I come now to touch ~.pon the riled that might pussi- •
bly be pror:uced by the adoption of the motion of the
Noble Earl. If your Lordships were to cot.cur in this
motion, who could say that your acquiescence in it
woulu not be construad into an intention, do your
part, that it seeuld be considered as admired by
you, that the assembly to which I have been allud-
ing was and would be legal ? Will any one of your
Lordships say that such an assembly would be an ex-
cellent institution ? Is that your opinion ? Do you
teiok so? "Can you believe that such a convention,
so eia-ted and ho constituted, would be legal, or
could oe harmless ? Is there an iodividoal,whether
friend or opponent of time Catholic claims, who can
think that such a tneetin would not be dangerous
Does any map believe in the harmlessness. of such
an institution, whether he be a peson who feels
that the Protestant Establishment should be main-
tained with all its ascendancy and pre-eminence,
or that the Catholics should be admitted, without
reserve, to a participation of all the rights, inmte..
nities, and privileges enjoyed by any other-class of

his Rittiec •Subjetis ? r trust your tordships
will adtitit, -that in what I hive said, I have
fully disposed of that part 'of the ques ion
which regards the construction and aeldication of
the Convention Act, and the prudenae and pm
priety of the Irish Government in the ski s taken
to enforce it. Upon the next point, aesia al mg the
claims 'Of the Catholics, though upon the present
occasion I differ with the Noble Earl, s ill think,
as I have always thought, that the situation of the
Roman Catholics, is that the condition of that great
body of the population of Ireland is deserving of
every attention, and entitled to every alleviation,
Deeply impressed, however, as I am with this opi-
nion, I (oust say, that I do not think the present
period a favourable moment for conceding their
claims, or the discussion or' the subjed. But it I
had no other objeelion to the consideration of the
question hut what I entertain to the grouads laid by
• the Noble Earl, I should look upon this as a mo-
ment highly inconvenient for the agitation of the
-question. With regard to the abstrael subjea of
the precise limits of the distiociiiin bet seen toleta-
tion and the encouragement of the Catholic preien-
siona, it may, perhaps, be difficult to state any ac-
curate definition; and I shall not, therefore, trou-
ble your Lordships with any attempt to aseettain
the exact boundary. It appears to me, that no pre-
cise line of 'distinction can at any time be drawn
without a full arid comprehensive consideration of
all the existing circumstances of the period. The
case respecting the Catholics is not now, nor has
it ever been, a question reseeding- merely the
restraining of any particular religious principles or
opinions. Every State is perfectly justified in re-
fosaining any principles, or any setts, which are
likely to prove injurious to its interests, or danger-
ous to ire security. If the restraints be limited to
the extent of the necessity that cads for them, they
are completely justifiable and justified ; but no
community can, with propriety, carry restraints be-
yond the limit which the expediency and necessity
for their enactment require. The question, there-
fore, now, as it applies to the Catholics of Ire-
land, is, to what degree are we justified in continu-
ing restraints upon them, and what are the in-
stances of restriction which we may, without risky
danger, relinquish. l'or my own part, I have no
hesitation to declare to your Lordships that I hold
all restraints to be in themselves positive evils;—
whether I am right or in error in holding this opi-
nion, and' these principles, it is not for tne w de-
cide. This I know, that I hay been born with
them, been educated with them, that they have
grown up with my years, and will accompany me
to my grave; that they are interwoven in my poli-
tical creed, and too firmly established to be ever era-
dicated. Upon. these principles it is that I hold
any restraints upon any class of subjects, which
preclude them from the possession and enjoyment
of any rights or immunities accessible to any other
class or subjects, are in themselves evils, and rind),
tolerable when the amount of the danger from
their removal exceeds the mischiefs of their coati-
nuance. The danger, I will admit, may be greater,
if so, I say hold to' your restraints ; but, if the
contrary he the case, there is no principle of pru-
dent policy, or a sound discretion, that will justify
the continuance of rest tints beyond the actual
necessity. I have heard that an opinion has been
u•ged• to otter ~laces, !bough I have never., heard
it stated in this House, nor has it, that 1 kno.v
of, been' stated in the other House of Parliament,
that these restraints are in themselves a posi ive
good—that they leave been represented as the means
not of protecting the establishment or deleodin4
the altar, but as the raligion and the a. tar fur which
they were originally intended as guards—not as the
defence of the sanetuary, but as the syntionry and
the ark itself. Bu. no Mau can seriously, in toy
opinion, defend these restrialons upon any so
aemnds—no roan can reconcile to himself the
absurdity of considering such measures of secs:-
nty for the altar, as that altar which they \vete
intended to secure. Well respect to the ques-
oaf, ta aught forward ay the Noule Earl this day,
and that ultimate one to which it
,points, linos;
say, that, in order to insure any agreement,
much must be conceded on sit her side. It we Wish
to insure concord we must take down much of the
vehetneuce on both patties; we must take down the
pomp and parade and os ciliation of the claim of
right on one hand, and from the violence and fury
of intemperate zeal on the other. Bot upon the
general ground I will ask whether it is uot expe-
dient th it the restrictions should be taken off the
Catholics ? my opinion, an opinion lormed up-
on the best and most deliberate consideration which
I have been able to give the subject, tire removal
of those restrictions would be not only no: danger•
ous, but would afford an additional security to the
Protestant Establishments of the Empire, and more
particularly in Ireland. lam not now disposed or
,prepared to state what may be the precise extent or
measures of security which may be necessary in or-
der to provide for the future safety of these establish-
ments. It has always been my ouinion, that the
best mode of providing for the real interesas of the
Empire, wottid be to disarray the dist mcoons rit-
specting political rights of that rancour which eno
bodies the discontents of the country—to remove
that principle of sepiration of the people, which
holds the d:ssatishad and disaffeeled connected
against tire common interest, and preVrills that
union of heart and sentiment which is the best
fbuedation of a nation's welfare. Upon the closest
and best consideration which I have given the (pies-
tion, therefore, I nun persuaded that every regric-
tion ought to be rernovedbut removed in such a
manner, that the Legislature might have the oppor-
tunity of discussing the principle and grins of the
removal in every stage of the business, and be there-
by enabled to comb ne, ss ith the release of the Ca=
(holies from their disabilities, the enactmetit of ade-
quate securities for the proteaion of the Protestant
Establishmeets. By such a measure, we should get
rid of that principle that arrays and embodies a por-
ti n of the stiength of the country against the esta-
blishments. By removing the disqualifications, and
giving to the 'individual, a personal interest in die
support of the establishments, we shall embody that
force, for their preservation, a hisr in the present
state of things must be arrayed for their overthrow.
I know it may be said, as it has -baen said, that if
sae were to grant the present claim of the Catholics,
they would not he satisfied, but would demand
sometliieg more. Mica, it is urr,ed, has been
granted to them, and it is asked whether they have
rested satissed ? But This. I cOlitaud affords no lest

ground of 04-talon against their claims. If we
were now to open a new field of concession—it u I
had re •t previoesly made any at rangenient tor tt eta
telier—il we h eot admitted them upon aey terms
to a p rticipation of pole ical power, we inigh•,
will admit, very reasonably, exercise our judgment
upon the subject. But what t will ask is the situa-
tion of the Catholics of Ireland ? What is the view
that any Statesito would be bound to take of it ?--e
Do the Catholics not possess political pee er ?
Every man who knee's any thing of the situation of
that country, must be sstisible that they do. It wt
give them an. individeat interest in ti,d supprlrt ut
the establiSinneotss by granting their claims, there
will be no danger in the grant. skey thing that is to
he apprehended, must arise from the prssent situa-
tion of thinga, which dicsociai es them Wee any
interest in the permanent support of the establish-
ments. This is no principle n ,vel to the Constitu-
tion of this country. The whole frame and existence
of the Constitution itself depend upon this pi inciple
of the individual interest that all the parts have in
the general preservation of the whole. It is absurd
to suppose that the balance of King, Lords, and
Commons, is preserved by t: heir mutual checks and.,
interference. This 1-Tnuse has many points of con-
nettion with the people, so alsd has the other House
of Parliament in. a greater degree ; both Houses
have also bonds of connection with the Crown, and
it is by the common sense of a common interest in.
maintaining the Constitution, that that Constiroteed
is preserved, rather than by any system of mutual
restraint of interference. Let us then give tt
Catholics the indisidual interest in the State—let
us fill up those interstices occasioned by their excel-
sion from civil privileges in the Constitution,
,and
we shall bind them to the support of our establish-
ments. But it is said, !het when they seslt the
admission to the higher offices of the chtlefent ero-
fessions, trieir wishes are utireaconable. Is it then
unreasonable, if a gallant officer distinguishes hen-
self, that lie should wish for the natural reward of,
valour ? These wishes we have ourselves caused
in them—they are founded upon the truest the
soundest and the best principles. But it is said.
now that the Popish Succession is extineenow that
the Catholics according to the decision of the six.
principal of their Univer-ities in Europe, abtere
the dangerods doctrines which formerly formed a
part of their tenets; that they hate a
right to be ed.
Mitred into the possesSion of every privilege tee.:
joyed by any .otheeesubjed.. They have retnoved„
rio doubt, many objeations to the giant of their.
claims,-- But ie -was
.pot against the dangers of a
Pop:sh Succession or the consequences of their ex-
ceptionable doEtrines so mach as against the possible
danger of the intreduaion of atbitrary power into
this Country that the resiii&ions svere imposed.
Having said thus mach as to the claims, the Noble
Earl will do the the justice to believe that I am
substantially •with them, though Icannot coneeive ,
any time more unlatoureble -for pressing them then
the present, when the objections entertained by a
many very. well-meaning persons against them are
increased by the Catholics theruselves in their de-
termined violation of the law. trust that the
Catholics, andehose who are well d'sposed to their .
claims, will employ themselves in devising proper
means to provide securities for the Protestant Estee
blishments whenever it may be the wili of the Le-
gislature to grant their claims—thee they cast off
the intemperate spirit with which they are at present
animated, and present themselves before Parliament
in the modest guise of suitors and estittonerse--
that they vt ;II not think to make the Protestant
sceptre of this empire bow to claims preferred from
any quarter, however respe3able—' hat they shall
not seek to attain their objets by means likely to
overthrow the bulwarks of that Constitution which
is to them, quells, with the Motes ants, the sues:-t
pledges of their rights and liberties—end, thrt
with a due submission to the outliority of Parlia-
ment, and a just veneration ear the principles .of
the Censtitution, they will present their Claims to
a participeion of all the rights enjoyed by any
other class of his Majesty's subjeas.
The Marquis of LAN'SDOWNE observed, that if
the Noble Marquis had urged in the Cabinet the
arguments which the House had jest heard, and with
as. touch ability, the criminality of his colleague.; ins
the cendua which they had pursued, was rendered
doubly criminal. He most con!ially agreed with the
Noble Marquis in the statement, that the rights of the
Catholics depended only on the safety with which
their claims could •be ceded, and that the moment the
necessity of their exclusion from a participation in the
privileges of their countrymen ceased, that moment
their right to such a participation commenced. But
still more cordially did he agree with the .Noble
Marquis (Wellesley) in his argument, that it was
tot only just and reasonable to admit the Catholics
to an equal participation of rights the moment that
they could be so admitted with safety; but that no.
thing could be more fatal to the interests of the eine
Aire at large than to abstain from doing so. He ens
at a loss, however, to perceive the application of the
Noble Lord's arguments on the necessity of any de-
lay on the-subjeCt. - What was there in the state of
tile world; in the relations of this country with other
countries—with America for instance—with 'Spain—,
and all the other relations, with the nature of which
the Noble Marquis was so well acquainted, that cntiht
induce him to believe the Legislature would do the's
duty in forbearing to agree to the measure whit
lt
his Noble Friend wished them to adopt, in order to
reconcile the hearts'and feelings of so large a portion
of •t he population of the empire ? For his part, he
could not coricaive any momenrso fit for such a put-
pose as the present. At the instant of commencing
a new era of. government, .Parliament mein to tee
tleEt on the pasts to see what had been the effete of
repeated denials, and to consider the foal failure of
that system. which had nn fortunately been so loft
persevered in eowards Ireland. FrOm the past they
enght•tceobtain a lesson how to amend the future,
and leeee to acquire strength fteen the conseiouse
&less of the weakness -which the-measures of Uovern-
ment had hitherto occasiolied. It was with great
satisfaciiotmoots
mo►ions to
Without nnalesyitrgt.hl.:iiiiil;it:::tp:s.e:ritelillis,:hriecln)elhal,tiaa,c;cstgelt:h:rtditeiroen:lth:p:eeltet:ati:inaitael.oetrttdatatdciloosltueatpa)gfe:teolsytooysuenfii;rdeott
shifoo.hestre:i:tenidgiti!tiattio.,ratlreland t
that the
agitation. alleged to be,fellart here, existed only in
the Honse, snd that theepoptslation of, Irelene
quiet and satisfied.
.4The absence Or. this argument,
nn ehe.presete occasion, proved the growing dircynn.
'Ant 0f.2