The Sun.
London, England, 1824-02-21 00:00:00

DUTY .ON WOOL,

Mr. T. WILSON presented a petition from the merchants,
factors, and traders of London, against the tax on the importa-
tion of foreign wool.
Mr. ROBERTSON observed, that if the landed gentlemen
rightly understood their own interests, they would not permit
this tax to remain any longer in existence. Commerce and
agriculture were now so intimately, united, that any measure
which was injurious to the one, necessarily proved in the long
run injurious to the other. Now there could be no doubt
that 'this tax had been very detrimental to the woollen-ma-
nufacturers of the country; for the returns for the last year
showed thafthe quantity of woollens exported had fallen more
than a quarter. Indeed, it had occasioned them to lose the
trade of the greater part of the continent. In Italy there was
much coarse wool grown. Our manufacturers, before the im-
position of this tax, were accustomed to take nearly the whole

impolitic.
Mr. Alderman WOOD contended, that the Chancellor of
the Exchequer would greatly mistake the interests of the coun-
try if he permitted this tax to continue a year longer.
Sir JOHN WROTTESLEY called the attention of the
House to the circumstances under which this tax had been im-
posed. They would all recoiled that in the yeat 1819, when the
country was in a state of profound peace, and also in daily ex-
pectation of a considerable remission of' taxation, 3,000,0001. of
new taxes were unexpectedly imposed upon.it. Of this sum,
part was raised by the imposition of a duty of la.' 6d. • a bushel
on malt ; and as that tax was thought to be detrimental to the
agriculturists, it was thought proper to give them as a coun-
terpoise to it, a protecting duty against the importation of fo-
reign wool. Now a considerable portion of the malt duty had
already been taken off; and if the Hon. Member for the City
would assist him.in taking off the remaining sixpence, he would
in his turn assist the Honourable Member to get rid of this tax
on wool.—The Petition was read, and ordered to he printed.
COURTS OF JUSTICE IN IRELAND.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT having understood that the in-
quiry into the state of the Courts of Justice in Ireland was at
an end, begged to ask the Right Honourable Gentleman op-
posite (Mr. Peel) whether he was rightly informed as to that
fact ? He also wished to know what steps had been taken, so
far, for carrying the recommendations of the Commissioners
into execution ?
Mr. PEEL said, that the inquiry had been a very valuable
one ; but its labours certainly were at an end. The Commis-
sion had closed an theist of the present month. He under-
stood that considerable progress in all the Courts had been made
towards carrying the recommendations of the Commissioners
into effect. As regarded the Fees of the Court of Cancery, all
the substantial part of the work was done; and active mea-
sures were taking both in the Court of King's Bench and the
Court of Common Pleas.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.—ARIWY. ESTIMATES.
The Hou-se having resolved .itself into a CoMmittee of
Supply,
Lord PALMERSTON rose to bring forward the Army
Estimates for the year. The printed.Astimates, as they ap-
peared before the Houie, contained apOposed increasp in our
military force of six new regiments, upon the existing .esta-
blishment, besides 200 men added to each of the three veteran
battalions—forming an increased force of 4,500 troops,' and nn
charge
6f 158,0001- ; but since those Estimates had
certain facts had come to his (the Noble Lord's)
knoWledge, which enabled him to deduct 55,000/. from the
ibnecerne ars
idn
ecdh,a
cr
money vote, and so limit the increased expence to 103,4641.
The addition contemplated to our lard forces would be ac-
counted for in a few words. It did not arise out of any
apprehension • that the peace
of Europe would be disturb-
ed, or any alarm for the continued tranquillity (internally)
of }lnland ; but it arose "out of a view of the present
state of our West India Colonies and the condition of
those Colonies he thought too m iport ant to be discussed as a
collateral question. Every attention, had been paid to economy
in the arrangement of the proposed increase. The officers of
the six new regiments were to be all taken from half-pay; nor
were there to be any promotions from regiments already exist-
ing, although Government !tad made that regulation with much
unwillingness. Our regular land force, then, he would con-
sider as to be increased by an addition of 3,800 men. The in-
crease of charge, in the first instance, would stand at 172,0001.;
against which was to be set a saving (by taking officers from
half-pay). of .18,000/. Of this expence, about 139,000/. or
140,0001. was the cost of the new regiments; and the rest was
for ree'iments which-had last 'year been charged upon the East
,India Company, but which, having since arrived in England,
came upon the Government establishment. Upon the item of
Staff (exclusive of India) an increase would appear of 5,000/.
This arose from the appointment of an additional general offi-
cer in Ireland ; and from certain expences being now included,
cn the estimate for " Staff," which had formerly been carried
,to other accounts. In the public departments there was a di-.
minution of 8,8001. In the•medicines, a diminution of 584/.
In the.volunteer corps, a trifling diminution. The third class
of estimates, taken upon the printed paper, would be found to
afford' a diminution of 29,0001., to which he meant to add a
farther abatement of 55,0001., making upon the whole an abate-
ment of. 84,000/. On the. Royal Military College charge, there
was a diminution of 165/. On the General Officers' pay, a
diminution of 13,6001. ; and he meant farther to abate 5,000/.
upon this item, with a view to casual reduction which might
be expected to take place. The garrisons at home and abroad
were nearly the same as in the last year—a small diminution
of 190/. A diminution of 1,000/. would be found against the
full pay of retired officers ; but since the estimate had been
printed he bad found he could lessen that • charge 10,0001.
more. The half-pay and military allowances, an abatement of
17,0001. in the 'estimate; to which he should add an abatement
of 40,000/. ; making 57,000/. altogether. On the foreign half
pay, a diminution of 2,000/. In pensioners of Chelsea and
Kilmainham Hospitals, nearly the same as last year. Out-
pensioners, a diminution of 5,000/. ; which seemed little; but
expence had been produced by the arrival of some regiments
from India. In the Military Asylum there was an abatement
of 2,2001. -On the Widows' Pensions, an increase of 3,6001:
the House would be aware that widows of half-pay officers were
entitled to pensions as well as the widows of those on full pay.
On the Compassionate List, from fresh cases, an increase of
8,5001. Superannuation allowances, an increase of 3,683/.
partly occasioned by the transfer of charges to this item from
other accounts. The Exchequer Fees, which was the last
article in the third class of estimates, remained at the same
sum, within a trifle as last year; and, on the Veteran Batta-
lions in Ireland (which formed the fourth class), there was an
increase of 19,000/. The state of the account, therefore, taken
altogether, would shortly come to this—increased number of
men, 4,560; increased charge (in gross) 158,000/. From this
amount, however, • there was to be deducted, first, the 55,0001.
which he had mentioned, reducing the sum to 103,0001. ; and
next, a sum (in the way of balance) tohe set off, of 60,0001„
which was paid by the East India Company for the half pay
and pensions of troops employed in their territories, but which
being, (wider act of Parliament) paid into the Exchequer .went
to the account of the Ways and Means. . This sum of 60,0001.,
to which the army estimate was entitled, reduced the year's
increase (with 4,500 men additional) from 103,000/. to 43,000/.;
and lie should conclude, therefore, by moving, as his first re-
solution before the House, " that a force of not exceeding
73,341 regular troops, and 3,354 men in Veteran Battalions in
Ireland, should be granted, exclusive of forces in India, for
the service of the succeeding year... ,
Mr. HUME was not of opinion that the Noble Lord's ex-
position had satisfactorily accounted, or laid a foundation, for
the increase Ire meditated. He had heard nothing ;from the
Noble Lord to induce him, as regarded his own vote, to sup-
port a standing army of 73,000 men. It had only been peculiar
circumstances which had led the House to sanction The conti-
nuance of our existing,establishment last year; and he had
looked with confidence to a reduction of 5,000 men, or .6,000,
rather than an increase in the present year. An addition to
the nay); hid already this- session been granted ; and the pro..
posal of the Noble Lord, if the House would listen to it, gave
us no fewer than 233,000 men in arms. Now, to what purpose

—for what end—was this immense establishment, in time of
peace, to be maintained ? On the Continent, the King's
speech assured us, there was every appearance of
.continued
peace. Ireland? -We had troops enough in Ireland already,
and too many, for they did mischief. But it was said that we
wanted men in the West Indies. How many ? say, forurgu-
merit's sake, 3,000 or 4,000. And was our,. existing establish.
ment so low, that we could not afford such a force without au,-
menting it ? But he was out of patience to hear always the
old remedy—sending our troops to the West India Islands !
Ministers ought to have spoken out before this period of the
session, and to have said what eventually was to be done as to
thole Islands. Ministers ought to speak out, he repeated, be-
fore they alienated the minds of-tie eelonists. They,ought to
say at once, " We mean to liberate the slaves," or 4, We do
not mean to liberate them ;" and not give opportunities to de-
signing individuals, as he heard that such existed,
.to put. the
properties, and even the lives, of the white inhabitants ins jeo-
pardy. The Hon. Member then complained of the imperfect
state of the estimate laid before the House, Hon. Members
'might as well have no estimate before them at all, as one in
which the Noble Lord was to ms'ae such alterations. The
Honourable Gentleman concluded by moving the following
resolution :
" That as Isis Majesty was graciously pleased in his speech
from the Throne, to inform the House that, at no former pe:.
riod has there prevailed throughout all classes of the commu-
nity in this Island a more cheerful spirit of order, or a more
just sense of the advantages which under the blessing of Pro-
vidence they enjoy.
" In Irelasni, which has for some time past been the sub-
ject of his Majesty's particular solicitude, there are many indi-
cations of amendment, and his Majesty relies upon your conti-
nued endeavours to secure the welfare and happiness of that
part of the United Kingdom. .1
" ' His Majesty has commanded us, further, to inform you,
that he has every reason to believe that the progress of our in-
ternal prosperity and improvement will not be disturbed by
any interruption of tranquillity abroad.
" His Majesty continues to receive from the Powers, his
Allies, and generally from all Princes and States, assurances of
their earnest desire to maintain and cultivate the relations of
friendship with his Majesty.'
" This Committee cannot, therefore, agree to any increase of
• the number of the army since last year, hut are of opinion that
a standing army of 63,000 regulars, exclusive of 19,000 of ar-
tillery', veterans, and ,marines, now embodied, and a large force
of militia and volunteers ready on any emergency to be embo-
died, are sufficient, under all the circumstances of the country,
to be kept up."
Mr. BROGDEN said, the usual course was to move either
a reduction of the number of men, or the amount of the ex-
pence.
Mr. HUME wished the words of his resolution to be re-
tained ; he would therefore propose -it is as an amendment on
the original resolution. The question was accordingly so put.
Mr. GORDON said, die Noble Lord (Palmerston) had
given as the principal reason for an increased force the state of
the Colonies; and though he (Mr. Gordon) was not desirious'
to be numbered in that unhappy class of persons called
West India Proprietors, whom it was the custom at present
for every body to abuse, yet as lie had some West India pro-
perty he was anxious to express• his opinion on the subject.—
It appeared that 2,500 men had already been sent to the West
Indies, in anticipation of the vote of this evening, though. the
Noble Lord had with great prudence abstained from the dis-
cussion of the delicate topics connected with that subject;
he (Mr. Gordon) heartily wished the Hon. Member for Aber-
deen had followed that example : but it appeared to be his
wish to introduce A debate on West India interest, which every
other person deemed desirable to be avoided. The Hon. Member
wished his Majesty's Ministers to speak out on the subject ;
whilst he (Mr. Gordon), on thg contrary, would wish them not
to speak at all, hut remain quiet, when he trusted that all
would end in peace and tranquillity. He wished the House to
be convinced that it was not alone on, the ground of the
West. India Colonies .that the increase of force was necessary,
for last year, from the state orihb 'contirienrotEtrisnaes-anersy.
one agreed in the necessity of a large force ; and he could not
see any thing, either looking to Greece or Spain, from which it
could be argued that there was not now as great a chance of
this country being involved in war as there was at that time.
Sir WTI. Y
DE CRESPIGN. in a few words, recommend-
ed moderation on the subject of the West India Colonies.'
General GASCOYNE said, that when he considered the ad-
dition of Colonial territory acquired by this country since the
peace, he was more than ever convinced that the army had
been e
.halirrheemnshineemd eanbtliooandedlBth,at2o, thereandwere
m 24 much reduced.
d years, without being relieved, the House would he' convinced
of the necessity of some course being adopted for the attain-
ment'of that object. The Hon. Member here read, from a re-
turn, the number of years which several regiments had been,
serving in the East Indies ; and asked, if it could be borne
that these meritorious men should be banished from their native
country for a longer period of time than that which was inflicted
as a punishment on felons ? It was not, then, for the West In-
dies alone that an increase of force was necessary, but on ac-
count of our other extensive colonies, in justice to which, as
well as to the soldiers to whom we were so much indebted, it
was proper that the force should be augthented. The Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Hume) said, that if Ireland were ' tranquil-
lized, there would be no necessity for the increase ; but had
there been any mode suggested for obtaining that desirable
end, or was it likely soon to occur, and were the exigencies of
the 'West Indies to wait till Ireland should be settled ? As
I to the militia and yeomanry, the Hon. Member should recollect,
that the services of that description of force was not usually
called for, without there was an actual danger of invasion. On
the whole, he considered the increase was necessary ; and he
rejoiced that his Majesty's Ministers had come to the same
conclusion.
Mr. WODEHOUSE hoped, that whenever 'the subject of
the West Indies came before. the House, it would be temper-
ately discussed. On the subject of the force serving in the West
Indies, there was in one regiment stationed at Barbadocs a re-
turn of deaths of 20 officers and 500 men. This regiment was
sent out, not as a. relief, but as s reinforcement, and they were
forced out by the cry for reduction at home at an unhealthy pe-
riod; and to that circumstance alone was the great mortality to
be attributed. He would ask, therefore, if these were not cir-
cumstances worthy of the consideration of the House ? The ac-
curacy of his statement he could vouch for ; as he had received
the communication from a gallant officer, some time since a
Member of that House (Sir Herbert Taylor.) The Hon. Mem,
ber for Aberdeen spoke of the gentlemen who sat on his (Mr.
Woclehouse's) side of the House, as if they never thought for
themselves ; but, according to his expression, " Follow my
leader" was the order of the day. He (Mr. Wodehouse)
did certainly, in common with others, support his Majesty's
Government against the reduction which took place some
time since; and he still retained the opinion which he then
entertained, that the reductions in the naval and military
establishments had been carried too far. He knew that a
great deal of constitutional reasoning might always be brought,
forward on the subject of a standing
.army, but the House
would not be led away by it from judging of the neces-
sity arising from change of circumstances and the varia-
tions of society. If the Honourable Member for Aberdeen
would tread that path, let him place himself under proper
guidance. A Noble Baron in another place did not consider
the military force of the country as any ground of danger; and
in following his opinion, the Hon Member for Aberdeen need
not fear the constitution or liberty of the country would be
overwhelmed.
Mr. BERNAL said, that when troops.were sent to the West
Indies, particularly to Jamaica, it did happen, he knew not
how, that they were not put into those quarters where they
could be seasoned to die climate, but were generally quartered
near Port Royal, or Kingston, instead of being sent into the
healthy climate of the country. Besides this inattention to the
quartering, the troops were frequently sent out at an improper
season of the year. With respect to reliefs, he agreed with
much of what had been stated by his Hon. Frien (General
Gascoyne). There was a system of favouritism extending to
certain regiments, called " crack" regiments ; and till that was
demolished, there never could be a perfect system of reliefs.—
He believed that his Royal Highness the Commander-in-
Chief was doing his endeavours to put an end to it, so that
every regiment in the service would now have to take its turn
of duty. He agreed with much that had fallen from his Hon.
Friend the Member for Aberdeen ; but though he was in the
habit of opposing many of the measures of Ministers, he
should, not oppose the present vote, lest it should embarrass
those arrangements which circumstances had rendered neces-
sary. He did not mean to say a word on the subject 'of the
West Indies, though undoubtedly the time would come when
silence would be criminal.
Mr. HOBHOUSE said he felt it necessary to apologize for
offering himself to the House on the present occasion, as he was

afaitaiii sentiments were So extraordinarya that they were not
only unlikely to fled much-sympathy in that House, but, he
was sorry to say, even • in the country•at • large.---(A laugh.)-.
But'he thought it theduty of Members of that House, when
there was a want of popular feeling; or an excess of it, to lead
the public mind ; and it became every public man to tell the,
people what was the difference between himself and his cOreetie
tuents He, perhaps, should„nothave spoken on this occasion,
were it not that it might appear there was some difference Iwo
tween his present sentiments, and those expressed by him list •
Session. He had before said, and he could not too often tee
peat it, that our position was not such as became- this -mighty
nation ; we might have given the law to all Europe, instead ere
truckling to others. He confessed himself an advocate for ware
if the aaheression on Spain could not have been prevented with-
out it ; but as we had not had the honour of standing in that
attitude, we ought not now to be called upon. to pay foie-atr,
army which was kept up, not to terrify or annoy tyrants abrodefc
hut to keep down the people at home. He (Mr. Hobhouee)
reading 'history, as he thought every Englishman used to read
it, found stone the experience of .all ages, that standing
armies had always been employed for • the purpose' of iye
rants. How changed must be the sentiments, when Eng-
lishmen can come to the conclusion that augmentations to
the standing army are mere matters of course, and the.
only discussion arising out of it are questions of bow the
troops are to be employed, whilst the great constitutional quest
tion that in time of peace we are to maintain a great standing
army is passed bye without observation. The Noble Lord
(Palmerston) now came to ask for an increase of 4,000 men, es
if that were a mere. trifle; but did he remember that period
when the greatest change took place in the politics of Europe,
and yet only half that number was added to' our force? In
1792 and 1793, the Noble Lord was aware of the great change
which took place in the prospects of the then cabinet; anti
though, in 1791, Mr. Pitt had almost guaranteed the continu-
ance of peace, yet it was then thought necessary to increase our
military establishment, and 2,000 men was all the addition: yet
the Noble Lord, at this time, when by the King's Speech we were
told there never was a time when there was so little apprehen-
sion for the continuance of peace, and the Hon. Secretary for
Foreign Affairs had stated that for all that he saw there was nb
danger to be apprehended from foreign aggression—yet atlbles
time the Noble Lord comes forward and demands an increase
of 4,000 men, because there are disturbances in the Colonies.
For England and Ireland we had a force of 42,000 men ; end
if it were necessary to send additional troops to the West
Indies, it seethed to him that they could be spared from that
number. In 1810, though we had 26,000, men on the elite-
blishment, yet 18,000 only were actually in service ; anti then
we had the manufacturing districte in such a state that it con hi
hardly be said that a civil war would not break out within
twelve months ; and yet 18,000 were thought sufficient for
the protection of the country ; and now, when, from his
?Majesty's speech, there never was so little danger of peace
being disturbed, 20,000 are thought necessary. The standing
army in the reign of Charles 11. was proposed to amount to
6,000 men, and yet the pensioned Parliament of thaf arbitrary
Monarch—that Parliament whose subserviency had branded. it
with infamy to all future times—was not base enough to permit
the existence of such a force. From the first time that he had
opened his mouth in that House, he had always expressed. his
opinion, that it was necessary to keep a jealous and vigilant
guard against the attempts which were Constantly making to
increase the standing military force of the country ; and to this
latest hour of his life he should continue to expretss the same
opinion. It Must be obvious to every man who would take the
trouble to examine it, that nothing could be more dangerous
than the success of such attempts ; the history of every
country in which they had been effected, proved that their
natural tendency was the subversion (4' constitutions ; and
he had no doobt, that if it was not checked, it would also
overturn the Constitution of England. The Noble Lord'had
not given the House any sufficient reason for the augmentation
of the forces which he had proposed. It was not pretended to
be necessary for'the augmentation of tranquillity. Why, then,
were 20,000 men wanted ? Why was a greater force necessary
at this period of profound repose than the usurper Cromwell
'heel kept • op for the purpose of maintaining by the sword'that
rule Whichtehad obtained by
.the sward ? -He did not mean
to deny that some force was always neceSseiry froni which- the
reinforcements required for the service of die colonies should he
drawn ; but it did not follow that such, force might not be li-
tufted. If in. the year 1818, 18,000 men were found stifficiente
why was it proposed now to increase thetas ? Looking as he
did with anxiety and jealousy at all attempts like this, he could
not help regretting that he had not the valuable assistance of
some of his own friends, as well as of other Honourable Mem-
bers, who usually expressed themselves unfavourably to Sitelt
augmentationa as that which he Was now opposing. The lion.
Member for Norfolk (Mr. Wodehouse), who was one cif,that
class of pee Sons commonly most zealous to aid such opposi-
tions—he meant the country gentlemen—and who, if they.w.e.re
not induced by. a wiser and more extensive view of the dangers
with which a standing militery force was fraught, had in gene-
ral at least a strong instinct which prompted them.to theprotec-
tiori of their own•ihterests from the mischievous consequence of
such a force—even that Hon. Member was found to adVocate the
proposed addition to the standing army. It was alleged that the
state of Ireland rendered a large military force always necessary
he called upon the House to consider that it behoved them to
show 'by their-vote of this night how, much they thought it
necessary that change should be made iii the system which
had been acted upon towards- that: unfortunate country. He
wished most heartily that the Government, instead of always
attempting to put &dim the prevailing discontents there by'
force, would attempt to remove the causes of those discontents.
He wished that Ireland should no longer be governed like a
conquered country, not the English inhabitants of it taughtto
consider themselves as colonists, who could only hold poste's-
sion of it by means of an extensive faction, and by the main-
tenance of an armed force. It was proposed to send a.foreeof
30,000 men to Ireland; this, together with the yeomanry; and
the police there, to say nothing of the militia, would make an
armed power of 50,000, which could- always be made effective,
and by ,which simple engine of 'state we thought to justify all
the wrongs with which we had so long afflicted that unhappy
country. Instead of pursuing this intention, he shoUld recoin-
'Mend such a change of the means by. which that country *as
governed, as would enable unto employ a diminution of force.
The principles which had hitherto been acted upon had all
failed, but lie was convinced-that a different fate would attend
different principles. If the Government, instead of force,
would try the efficacy of persuasion—instead` of the,SyStem
of restriction, :would adopt that of a liberal and impartial dis-
pensation of public favours; he had a perfect conviction that
they would do more towards restoring content and tranquillity
to the people of Ireland than they could ever hope to do even
by the force they now proposed to send thither. He regretted
to find that the people of England were not sufficiently
,jealous
of the increase of the military strength. Formerly, one spirit
pervaded the whole nation on this subject, and there was no
man who did not loudly express his detestation of a standing
army. Among. the. Honourable, Member's own. constituents,
who, he would take the liberty of saying, were as feelingly
alive to the preservation of the Constitution as any part of the
community, some .alarin was at this moment entertained,
with respect to the project of making barracks in the very
heart of Westminster.. it was said that in that spot which
had formerly been devoted to the amusement of the Cr9wn,.
it was now intended to provide for the residence of a force
which might be made to overawe the people, if ever, their
rights should come in collision with the yreteosions.,Of the
Crown. He heed the Noble Lord would favour', him
with a categorical. answer to the question,. whether. 'it was
really the intention of Government to convert the King's News
into military barracks ? It was necessary, or at least it was fair,
that if this was intended, it should not be known ; for he could
assure the Noble Lord that it would make no small, stir—he
hoped in the metropolis, but certainly in that part of it...which
was most nearly interested in. the subject. Many of his con-
stituents had complained .to him of the pecuniary detriment'
which they experienced by the shutting up the thoroughfare at
the Mews. This was certainly unjustifiable; but if, because
it had been suffered, the Noble Lord thought the people would
tamely endure the building of Barracks wherever the Govern-
ment might think fit, he would find himself mistaken. He
knew that the Noble Lord had, on a former eecaeion,' when
speaking on the Subject of Inland barracks, despised the. anti-
quated authority of. Blackstone, and opposed to it the more-
enlightened wisdom of the ,present age. He begged pardon
for the, length at which he had troubled the Committee on
this subject ; but he could not suffer the opeartuniti which
was now afforded him of expressing his opinions on the
augmentation of the military force-opinions. which, even
if he should have the misfortune to hold them singly",; he
was nevertheless convinced were such as deeply conceyned
the preservation of the Constitution.' The alesenett of
many of the 'Honourable Members who usually support-
ed the view which he had taken of the question, was,

=prig many lamentable proofs of the habit of supineness and
insenslfiili y to this subject, which was gradually creeping on
where it had never before been received. He should vote with
his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) for the proposal amendment;
and if it had been extended to sending the whole army out of
England and leaving the country under the protection of the
Civil Power only, he would have no less willingly supported it.
Lord PALMERSTON replied. As far as he had been
able to collect the opinion of the House, the Hon. Members
for Westminster and Aberdeen were the only Gentlemen who
iatentled to oppose the vote; it was therefore unnecessary for
him to enter thrther into the diftcussion than to,answer some
of the objections which they had raised. In the first place, the
Hon. Meinher for Aberdeen had seemed to consider the rein-
forceMents for the West India service necessary ; for although
he had in the early part of his speech denied this, he had after.
wards conceded it. Rut he said, that he had consented to the esti:.
mares of the last year only because it was then expected that the
country might be engaged in a war, and but for that probability
tse would have proposed a reduction to the amount of lft,hoft
men. The Hon. Gantleinan might perhaps allude to an opi-
nion entertained by himself and his friends; but his Lordship.
feL it necessary. on his own part, to declare that such an ex.:
pectation formed no part of the grounds on which he had so-
licited the vote of last year. On the contrary, the Govern-
ment then declared its resolution of remaining strictly neutral,
and he could not believe that the House had been induced
to agree to the vote the any such reason ; he was quite sure
that none such had been proposed by him. NViiat were the
means by which the Honourable Gentleman would have
Ae reduction which he recommended effected ? In Ireland,
he was of opinion, that if certain measures were adopted, the
military three at present there might be withdrawn and ap-
plied to the reinforcement of the Colonial service. Did any
man in his senses believe, that if the Catholic question were
set at rent tai-morrow,it would.have such a more than Magic effect
-upon Ireland, that the force employed there might be safely
removed at, once ? The Hon. Member next proposed, that a
reduction sbould be made from the cavalry and the Guards.--
He (Lord P.) was prepared to contend that there was not • a
. larger number of men to these regiments than was fairly pro-
portioned to the infantry of the line; and that it was impossible
to reduce them without also reducing the efficiency of that esta-
blishment, which even in times of peace, it was necessary to
keep up, that armies might be formed if war should break out.
The Hon. Member had alluded 'to the militia and yeomanry;
but he knew very well that neither of Those hrces could in any
way be made serviceable for colonial reinforcements. Still, he
said, if nothing could be done from any ofthese sources, the aug-
mentation of the army might be effected at a less expence, and
that instead of six new regiments, additions might be made to the
Old ones. He (Lord P.) was .quite aware that large regimental
establishments were less expensive in proportion than small ones;
but from the nature of the colonies, and the manner in which the
threes were distributed, an addition of 50 men to each regiment,
alliough it would increase the numerical force of the establish-
'merit, would not add to its disposable force, because the addi-
tion would be made to many places where it was not wanted,
and in others it would be inadequate. The. expence at which
the new regiments were made was only that of the officers;
and this, it must be remembered, was less than it might seem
to.be, for they were supplied from the half-pay list, and the ad.
ditional expence was only therefore the difference between full
and half pay, which was not, as the term would imply, one
half, but in some instances, a third; and in others only a fourth.
The Lion. Member under the gallery (Mr. Bernal) had com-
=plained that the system of quartering troops in the West Indies
,vnis not sufficiently attended to. The healthiness of the barracks
bad, however, long occupied the attention of the Government,
and great pains had been taken by sending competent medi-
cni men to examine them, to procure the best opinions, respect-
ing each station. He (Lord Palmerston) was aware that some
stations had been found unfavourable to the health of the troops.
The Government had been engaged in making arrangements
with the. Legislative Body of the island of Jamaica, to alter
those stations ; and although some difficulties had arisen, he
could assure the Hon. Member and the House, that the sub-
ject had been by no means lost sight of. With respect•to the
time and season at which troops were sent to thg West Indies,
it was true that it was extremely desirable the reinforcements
should arrive there at particular periods of the year. The
regiment to which, his Hon. Friend behind (Mr. Wodehouse)
had alluded, had unavoidably been sent under very unfa-
vourable circumstances; but this was one of the -prejudicial
consequences arising from the force in the colonies being
brought to so low an amount, that when a reinforcement
became intinetliately necessary, there was no means of sui.
plying it, but by sending a regiment from home, when per-
naps the Government could not controul the period of its
arrival. The Honourable Member for Westminster had said
that he was in the sole possession of peculiar opinions on
the subject before the. House. He (Lord Palmerston) did
cot think by the Hon. Member's arguments of this even-
ing lie was at all likely to lose the possession of those opinions;
and for his own part he (Lord Palmerston), as lie would
not willingly rob the Hon. Member of the exclusive credit to
which they were, entitled, should say not a word against them.
--it was by no means his wish to ridicule that proper constitu-
tional jealousy with which the people of England hod always
regerded the estahlishnient of a standing army ; but 4Would
put it to the Hon. Gentleman, or to those who were sincere
admirers and welt-winheri of he Constitution, whether it was
not better to reserve the expression of their opinions on the sub,
ject to a fitting opportunity, and whether they did not, in fact
throw ridicule on the cause they wished to support, by intro.
ducing those opinions upon occasions to whicis they did not
app!),

HOBHOUSE said that the Noble Locd, for the par-
pose of rounding a period, had exaggerated what had fallen
from him. - He slid not say that he was in the sole possession
of the opinions he had expressed; and at all events the Noble
Lord might have done injustice to the conscientious motives
which prompted that expression, even though it had been as
ill-timed-as he seemed to think it. He was quite satisfied, not-
withstanding the ridicule which the Noble Lord thought his
(Mr. Hobhouse's) injudicious support had thrown upon consti-
tutional principles, that they remained unhurt by it. He was
sure he had done those principles as little harm by his snpport
as the Noble Lord had done by his attack.
Colonel DAVIES thought the estimate an extravagant one.
but he was still not prepared to go the full length of the motion.
Mr. HUME replied, the ground upon which he had pro-
posed his motion remained unshaken by any thing he had heard
from the Noble Lord. Ile regretted that upon this occasion
the benches below him were empty, and that he was deprived
of the support he looked for from those Hon.. Members who
had usually adiocated the same side of similar questions. He,
however, left the motion with the Cornalittge, satisfied that he
bad done his duty,
General GASUOYNE explaine4.
Mr. CALCR AFT, having fdrmerly voted for the reduction
of the military force with those of his lion. Friends whose ab-
sence his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) had just regretted, felt
himself called upon to say that he did not think we proposed
addition for the service of the colonies could be opposed upon
the same grounds. He had, in. concert with those Honourable
Friends, voted for reduction until the force of the country had
been reduced to such an amount, that lie thought it could not
be brought lower ; beyond this, he was not prepared to go, and
this he thought sufficieniiy accounted for the absence of those i
Ifon. Members.

The Committee then dividad: the numbers were—
For the Amendment
Against it

It 2
-92

Majority -
The original Resolution was then carried.
The following votes were then agreed to without opposition
For deftaying the eipenees of the staff {exclusive of India),
9A,2971. 16s. 6d. -
Ditto Ireland, 24,7251. Bs. sd.
For defraying the expenses of metlicizes and surgical instru-
ments, 12,8221. ss. •
Ditto Ireland, 4,5581. Its. Gil.
}or the volunteer corps, 134,000/.
Ditto Ireland, 19,3431. 12s. Bd.
For the troops and companies recruiting' or the East India
Cqmpany's service, 20,253/. 25..1d.
Royal Military College, 11,4231. 19s. Id.
Army pay of General Officers, 169,1701.
Garrisons of Great Britain, 29635/. 13s. 10d.
Ditto Ireland, 6,5561. 18s. 6d.
Full pay of retired officers, 134,4421. Os. hi.
Half pay and military allowances, 838,8921. 4s. 6d.
Foreign half pay, 111,2601.
In-pensioners of Chelsea and Eilmainham Hospitals,
48,3991.85. Ild.
Out-pensioners of Chelsea Hospital, 1,219,4171. Ils. 10d.
Royal Military. Asylum, 23,8641.55. 3d.
Widows' pensions, 134,251/.
Compassionate list and pensions for wounds, 186,3341.
13s. 9d.
Superannuation allowances, 41,94111. 13s. 7d.
Ditto Ireland, 5,292/. 163. 4d.
Exchequer fees 33,0001.
Lord PALSIEILSTON then stated that he had no further
votes to move.

NAVY EStIMATES.
Sir G. CLERK moved that the bum of 53,28,61. ss. ld. be
granted to deficay the salaries and contingent expences of the
A dmiralty Office.
Mr. HUME took that opportunity of calling the attention of
the Hon. Baronet to a subject which was not connected with
the vote before the Committee. lie understood that the great
dissatisfaction existed among the lower class of workmen in the
dock-yards, on account of the reduction which had been made
in their wages since the conclusion of the war, which reduction
they conceived to be much greater in proportion to the amount
at their wages than the reduction which bad _taken place in the

salaries of the persons who held situations above them.. Ile did
not know whether the attention of Government had been called
to the circumstance; but he had received information to the
effect which he had stated.
Sir a CLERK said he was not aware that any dissatisfac-
tion prevailed among the workmen in the dock-yards, and he
was sure there was no ground for any.
The followingvotes were then moved and agreed to :
For the salaries and contingencies of the Navy-pay-office,
27,794/. Is. 6d. 4
Salaries and contingencies of the Navy-office, 57,6701. 15s.
Ditto of the Victualling-office, 33,447/. lOs.
Ditto of the Dock-yard at Deptford, 17,815/. 10s. Bd.
Ditto of the Dock-yard at Woolwich, 19,364/. 10s.
Ditto of the Dock-yards at Chatham, 24,865/. 103. 2d.
Ditto of the Dock-yards at Sheerness, 16,534/. 13s.
Ditto of the Dock-yards at Portsmouth, 35,495/. 3s. 2d.
Ditto of the Dock-yards at Plymouth, 31.226/. ss. Bd.
Ditto of the Dock-yards at Pembroke, 6,490/. 103.
Ditto of the out ports, 3,2111. I Is. 2d.
Wages to artificers and labourers employed in his Majesty's
Dock-yards at home, 476,4001.
Charge for timber and all other materials, for the building,
repairing, and fitting his Majesty's ships, &c., 507,0001.
Upon the last vote being proposed,
Mr. HUME asked whether Ministers had taken any mea-
sures on the subject of the dry-rot ?
Sir .BYAM MARTIN replied, that the immersion of the
wood in salt water was now practised, and the use of coal-tar
discontinued. For the latter circumstance he (as we understood)
was sorry ; because he believed that the use of coal-tar was
attended with good effects. It was quite certain that the dry
rot had greatly decreased since the termination of the war ; and
he was convinced that the ships which had been built since
that period would have a longer duration than any which had
been constructed before. In consequehce of the allusion which
had been made on a former occasion to Mr. Burbidge's book
on the dry rot, he had taken the trouble to read that work
through, and he (lid not hesitate to say that it was false from
the beeinning to the end.--(A laugh.)
Mr.IIUME observed, that ise could not vouch for the truth
of all that Mr. Burbidge had advanced, but there certainly
were some of his statements which deserved to be seriously con-
sidered, and he intended to bring them under the notice of the
House at a future period. He wished to receive information on
two other points—namely, whether the use of foreign timber
had been abandoned in ship-building ; and whether, in the
contracts which had been made by Government, it had been
stipulated that the timber should be felled in winter instead of
the summer?
Sir B. MARTIN said that Government had contracted for
both foreign and native timber, but that no stipulation had
been made that it should be felled at any partieular period.—
When the Hon. Member should bring the subject of the dry
rot before the House, he (Sir B. Martin) would be able to show
that the dry rot had been most destructive to our shipping dur-
ing the last 150 years, and that it had only begun to disappear
since the conclusion of the war.—(Hear, hear !)
Sir J. WROTTESLEY said, it was of great moment that
the oak employed in ship-building should be felled in winter,
as its duration was thereby greatly increased.
The following vote was agreed to :
Charge for pilotage, Exchequer fees, &c., 40,0001.
The next vote was_.
Foreign yards, salaries, &c. 62,802/. 19s.
Mr. HUME asked whether any person had been sent out to
Bermuda, to ascertain whether that island was a proper station
for shipping?
Sir 0. CLERK replied, that Mr. Jessop had proceeded to
Bermuda, and reported favourably of that place as a stationfor
shipping.
Mr. HUME inquired whether no other person besides Mr.
Jessop had beeti sent out ?
Sir G. CLERK said, that he could rely upon the experience
and ability of Mr. Jessop.
Mr. BRIGHT thought that it was desirable that Bermuda
should as speedily as possible be put in a state of defence. He
did not know whether the attention. of Ministers had been call-
ed to an establishment to the south of Florida. He thought
that Government ought to form an establishment to counter-
balance that of the Americans in some part of the Bahama
Islands.

Sir G. COCKBURN stated, that Government could not
object to the Americans forminc, establishments where they
thought proper in the territory alluded to ; but it was their (the
Government's) duty to keep an eye upon them.
The vote was then agreed to, as were the following ones:-.
Victualling-yards, salaries, &c., 72,6691. 12s.
Medical establishments, salaries, &c., 52,4061. 17s. 11d.
Royal Naval College and School of Naval Architecture,
6,1771. 12s. 6d.
Wages to Officers, ship-keepers, and men belonging to ves-
sels in ordinary, 103,523/. 17s. sd.
Victuals to Officers, ship-keepers, &c., 5'5,421/. 113.
Hired packets, 46,0001.
When the last vote was proposed, Mr. HUME asked what
packets they were ?
Sir 0. CLERK said, that the vote was required to defray the expence of the packets appointed to carry the foreign mails
from Falmouth. The sum used to be expended by the post•
office, but it was now made an item in the navy estimates.
Air. HUME thought the Post-office ought to have the con-
troul of the packets. He could see no reason why the item
should be placed in the Navy Estimates: it only tended to
create confusion.
Sir G. CLERK said that it was part of the new plan which
had recently been adopted, to substitute vessels of war for the
packets, in the event of the breaking out of hostilies, which
would prevent those delays which frequently occurred during
the last war, when the packets were obliged to wait for the con-
voy of King's ships, or run the risk of being captured. He
really thought the Hon. Gentleman's proposition, so far from
being one that went to the simplification of these accounts,
Would only tend to make them the more complex.
Mr. ROBERTSON did-. hope that the Hon. Member for

.bertleen would not persist in liis opposition to the plan whici
in this instance had been adopted by his Majesty's Govern-
ment. It might be well to remark, that one of the first motions
made in the Congress of the United States of America, after
their independence had been recognized, was the adoption of a
similar kind of service. The principle of it was—the constant
,employment, without any additional expense to Government,
of a number of naval officers, whose services would always be
immediately available in rt m e of war.
Mr. HUME pressed the matter no further, and the vote was
agreed to.
Upon the resolution in respect of the grant of 911,0001. for
half_pay to flag officers, &c. CA LCItAFT begged to observe, that he thought the
case of midshipmen was a very hard one as to half_pay. What.
ever had been their services, or however they might be entitled
by their skill and merit, it was often totally out of the power of
the Admiralty to grant them any promotion. Now, it appeared
to him that it would be but fair and expedient to select a cer-
tain
number of midshipmen, on the principle, for example, of
length of service. At present, very many in this class of
officers were obliged to turn their attention to some other em-
ployment for subsistence, and thus were lost, meritorious indi-
viduals though they 'night be, to the service for ever.—(Hear,
hear!)—He conceived that a certain proportion might be se-
lected, to whom half pay should be given (and the • whole
amount could be but small) as a retaining fee whenever the
country might require their services.
Sir (1. CLERK- thought the object which the Hon. Gent.
had in view well deserved the most serious consideration ; but
it was surrounded with many difficulties ; and he could not
think the mode suggested by the Hon. Gentleman the most
eligible for effecting his purpose. The fact was, the Admiralty
had given employment to almost all midshipmen who had lately
passe their examinations ; and promotions had been made that
included almost all those who had passed examination before
the year 1814.
Mr. CA LCRAFT was not at all tenacious about the mode'
or' carrying such a plan into effect, provided so important a
principle was recognized. The Adfmralty would find no dif-
ficulty in obtaining an annual grant of 6,000/. or 7,0001.,
which might be a sufficient fund for the half-pay in question.
Sir G. COCKBURN, rather in his capacity as an officer of
the royal navy than as a Lord of the Admiralty, returned his
Sincere thanks to the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Calcraft) for the
very great attention which he at all times 'paid to this service;
but he was of course aware that, of itself, the Admiralty could
not carry into effect the sort of measure proposed.
- Mr. HUME begged to ask whether the half-pay officers of
the navy stood now in the same situation as they did at the end
of the American war in this respect—were they permitted to
enter the merchant service ? Might lieutenants, for example,
accept the command of private ships without running the
hazard of losing their naval commissions ?
Sir G. COCKBURN replied, that with the leave of the Ad-
miralty, Lieutenants might command merchant vessels. The
leave of the Admiralty was necessary to he previously obtained ;
because by the original half-pay regulations, and the rule esta-
blished in the reign of Charles IL, half-pay officers were re-
quired to reside at some one or other of the sea-ports; and if
they wished to reside abroad, were ret)uired to obtain, previ-
ously, a letter of leave from the Admiralty. The same prin-
ciple was not held to apply to captains or superior officers'; nor
as to lieutenants, even, with respect to the command of small
packet vessels, the commanders of which were paid by the con-
tributions of passenger S—a mode of remuneration that did not
appear sufficiently respectable for officers bearing commissions
in the Royal Navy.
-Mr. HUME understood that half-pay officers had to give
each a fee for his letter of leave.
.Sir GEORGE CLERK.—Yes, on obtaining them.
Mr. HUME considered this to be a great hardship. In a
certain number of years (he had been enabled to discover) these

fees amounted to nearly 19,0001. But since officers in the
army obtained leave to reside abroad without the payment of
any fees, why were officers of the Navy to be subjected to such
a tax ?
The following resolutions were then agreed to :
£136,299. 16s. Id., to defray the charges of superannuations
and pensions to officers, their widows and relatives.
£I,AO, for bounty to chaplains.
X 7,000, in aid of the compassionate list.
Upon the vote being moved of 00,000/. for defraying the de-
ficiencies in the funds of the charity for the relief of the widows
and orphans of commissioned and warrant officers of the royal
navy,

MI:. HUME said, the Hon. and Gallant Officer opposite had
been understood upon a former night to say, that masters of the
navy had not been more generally promoted on account of their
not being able to pass their examinations. Now he (Mr. Hiiine)
considered this class of officers to be,a highly meritorious set of
men.—(Hear!)—He found their total number, as it stood in the
last list, to be 551 ; since which list, 76 of these had been set
aside. Perhaps it would be better to retain them for the ser-
vice of the public, when their experience and talents might be
needed. There were now left, therefore, 475 masters, 250 of
whom were at present employed in the merchant service, or
subsisting on the very small half-pay allowed them. If these
men should be wanted, so small was the encouragement held
out to them, that it might he a question how far they would be
disposed to return to the service. Theirs appeared a case of
considerable hardship.—(Hear !)
Sir G. COCKBURN observed, that if he had been repre-
sented to have said what had just been imputed to him by the
Hon Member, he could only say, that if persons would look
for information to that source which was constantly, and for the
purpose, giving a wrong representation of what fell from Gen-
tlemen in that House, lie was not answerable for :itch error.—
What he really did say on a former night was, that the masters
in the navy were a most useful set of men. It was then observ-
ed to him, that originally every master who chose it, and was
judged sufficiently qualified, might rise to the rank of lieuten-
ant; but that sort of promotion was now put a step to. His
(Sir G. Cockburn's) answer was, that masters could still be
promoted, and were now occasionally promoted; and that at
one time only, an interval of two years,, occurring about twenty
years since, had this rule been interrtiPled. That with regard
to other persons rising to be masters, and he meant seamen of
course, no restriction was imposed upon their promotion, but
their sustaining a very strict examination as to ability. This he
stated at the time ; and if he was wrongly reported, as he gene-
rally was, it was no fault of his.

Mr. HUME had seen no report of the Hon. and Gallant
Officer's speech, but such had been his understanding. •
The House then voted 290,0001. to make good the deficiency
in the funds for defraying the charge of out-pensioners in
Greenwich Hospital.
£163,783 l Is. ld. for pensions, superannuations, and allow-
ances, to secretaries, clerks, and others in naval offices, in lieu
of half-pay.
£lO,OOO for ship-building in the East Indies.
£127,500 for defraying the expence of repairs and improve-
ments.

£255,000 for the purchase of provisions for troops and gar-
risons on foreign stations, and for the convict service ; and the
value of returns for troops to be embarked on board ships of
war and transports, at per estimate prepared by the Commis-
sioners of the Victualling.
£188,300 for the charge for transports.
Mr. HUME thought that against the names of individuals
who were superannuated, the term of their service ought to be
affixed. Among other names under the charge of 167,0001. he
observed that of T. D. Boswell, for instance, with a pension of
5131. a year.

Mr. HUSKISSON saw no objection to the adoption of the
lion. Member's suggestion. As to Mr. Boswell, he was 75
years old when he was superannuated, and was the brother of
the biographer of Dr. Johnson. He was a very worthy man.
After some further remarks by Mr. HUME,
The CHAtumAN reported progress, and asked leave to sit
again ; and the Report was ordered to be received on Monday
next.