The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-30 00:00:00

IVIORNINCT, MARCH 30, 1847

which it was stated that the return could
be ettily furnished. (The Noble Lord here read the
letter stating that the number of deaths could be sup-
plied, and even the names of, the pis ies, arid that the
deaths this year were twenty to one as compared with
those of any former year.) lie would wish to know whe-
the Government were prepared or not to send round a
circular, asking for the mortality returns which had oc-
curred in those periods which he had before named.
Mr. LABOUCIIERE said that on a former occa-
sion he had stated that he was not prepared
to deny that a great mortality had taken place. He had
also promised that, as far as.any correct information
could be obtained, it should be afforded. The Govern-
ment had consented to returns of the coroners' inquests,
and they had also resorted to other means to obtain in-
formation. The Noble Lord had directed his attention
to a method, namely, by means of the registry kept by
the clergy of the Established Church, and in conse-
quence of the suggestion he wrote to Mr. Redington,
who had made the requisite inquiries. and it was the
opinion of many Protestant clergymen that the registrit s
in the parishes could not be relied upon, for they were
only kept of those who were buried in churchyards ad-
joining the church, and not in open churchyards. The
Noble Lord had now called his attention to a new
method, namely, through the medium of the Roman
Catholic priesthood. Now, be apprehended they
had no power to enforce such a return, but he
could assure the lion. Gentleman that he would again
inquire, and if it was possible to obtain them. and if they
were to he relied upon, the Government would cheer-
fully consent.
After a few words from Lord JOHN MANNERS,

Lord JOHN RUSSELL begged of the House to re-
member, that already the public officers of Ireland were
taxed almost beyond their power in preparing these re-
turns, and therefore some allowances ought to be made
for delays ; until the returns which had already been
ordered had been more advanced than they were at
present, it was not advisable to call for other returns.
After a few words from Mr. DISRAELI and Mr. W. S.
O'BRIEN,

Mr. P. SCROPE recommended that there should be
taken an accurate census of the destitute of Ireland.

Mr. LABOUCHERE was understood to say that such
a list had long ago been ordered.
POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
The House then went into Committee on this Bill.
Mr. P. SCROPE moved the insertion of a clanse
similar to clause 10 in the Destitute Persons (Ireland)
Bill, for enforcing performance of the;guardians' duties,
and also a clause enlarging the maximum extent of land
which the guardians of any union are empots erxi tfa
purchase or hire and occupy with their workhouse, from
twelve to two hundred acres, and likewise that any
buildings hired or erected by them upon or near to such
land, be considered a part of such workhous'. This
system had been tried in England, where it worked well,
tending very materially to reclaim the bog land of the
country. At Charlion-upon-Medlock, the guardians had
attached a large portion of chat moss to their work-
house, and set their able bodied paupers to work upon
it, and the result had been that land which was origi-
nally not worth a shilling was now valued at 50s. an
acre. Now, could not some of the bogs of Ireland be
reclaimed in the same way ? The plan was economical
and fair, and he could see no objection to its adoption.
Mr. W. S. O'BBIEN thought the guardians ought to
have the power suggested by the clause of the Hon.
Member for Stroud, and he thanked that Hon. Gentle-
man most cordially fur having brought the matter
fot ward.

Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD agreed with the
principle of the clause, and trusted Government would
allow it to be inserted in the Bill.

Mr. SHAW deplored as much as anybody the con-
dition of the labouring poor of Ireland, but he thought
at the same time that to pauperise the whole of the
people, would render their condition even more into-
lerable than it was at present.
Colonel BAWD( N thought that the great difficulty
was how to employ the paupers; he thought, however,
that a system of labour might be obtained from the
paupers in the cultivation of land in such a manner as to
provide for their own necessities.
Sir G. GREY considered that the Bill, as it at pre-
sent stood, was the best that could be devised to meet
the circumstances of the case ; he should, therefore,
feel it his duty to oppose the introduction of the clause.
He hoped that by carrying out the system of the re-
clamation of waste lands, and the other measures of the
Government, that ample employment would be found
fur the pauper population of Ireland.
Mr. P. SCROPE thought that if this clause were not
adopted, the workhouses would be filled with able-bodied
paupers able to work, but no work at all provided for
them. He thought that those persons who considered
that, to the people of Ireland, that country would be-
come a land of Coekayne if the workhouse dietary were
to be thrown open to them without labour, placed but
little reliance on the vast resources of the country.
After a few words from Sir. G. GREY and Mr. SHAW,
Sir H. W. BARRON said that the poor labourers of
Ireland were almost entirely ignoramt of the principles
of agriculture so common both in England and Scot-
land, and he thought that the establishment of model
!arms in connexion with the workhouses of Ireland
would be of great service to the people of that country,
and by compelling the paupers to work on those farms,
a great portion of the expense of their maintenance
.could be saved. The plan would also be useful as
a test of poverty, for it could not be supposed that a
man would c.,ntinue longer in dependence upon the
parib by being compelled to work, than if he were
touintained in the house without work.

Lord J. Itti:;;SELL thought that this measure ought
not to be treat, d as a measure for more than one dis-
tinct object. When the Government proposed a mea-
sure for public works it was their duty to make it us
etf,ctual as possible, and when they proposed a measure
such as the pr, sync for the relief of the poor, it was also
their duty to make that measure as effectual as possible.
With respect to the establishment of model farms, he
did not think they could be carried out effectually in
connexion a ith a measure for the relief of the pauper.
Colonel ItOLLESTON said, if the proposition of the
Hon. Member for Stroud were carried to the extent he
proposed, he questioned whether the beneficial results
he anticipated would follow. He thought, however, that
in a modified form it would be productive of good.

Sir W. JAMES thought the measure was a necessary
experiment, but be considered it was accompanied with
considerable danger, and if care were not taken in car-
rying it into operation, very different effects from those
contemplated might be the consequence. This he
thought was particularly the case with regard to admi-
nistering relief to the destitute, when considerable im-
position might be practised.
Mr. LAWLESS hoped to see the time when not a
single able-bodied man would be seen enclosed in a work-
house, and that pauper labour would find employment
from other resources.

After a few words from Sir H. W. BARRON,
Mr. CURTEIS objected to the clause, as it might
enable landlords to play into the hands of each other.
Alter a few words from Sir George Grey, Lord John
Manners, Mr. Shaw, and Mr. V. Stewart,
Mr. P. SCROPE withdrew his amendment.

Mr. GREGORY then moved the following clause:—
And be enacted, that if it shall be proved, to the satis-
faction of the board of guardians, at any time, that any
occupier of laud within such union, rated at a net annual
value, not exceeding 51., shall be willing to give up pos-
session of the said land, whether held under lease or as
tenant-at-will, and to emigrate together with all persons
who may be dependent upon him for their support and
maintenance ; and that such occupier shall have been
approved by her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State
for the Colonies, or such person as he may appoint for
that purpose, as a fit and proper person to be admitted
as an emigrant ; aid that the immediate lessor of snch
occupier is willing, upo❑ the emigration of such occupier
and his family. and upon the surrender of the land
occupied by him, to torero any claim for rent which
he may have upon the said occupier, and also to
provide two-thirds of such fair and reasonable sum as
shall be required for the emigration of such occupier and
his family; then, and in such case, it shall be lawful for
the board of guardians of such union, upon payment of
such last mentioned sum, to charge upon the rates
of the electoral division, and to pay over to such
person, and in such manner as shall be directed by the
Poor-law Commissioners in aid of the emigration of such
occupier, any sum not exceeding one-half of the sum
contributed and paid by such immediate lessors as afore-
said, notwithstanding that any sum or sums so charged
and paid may exee,d in any one year one shilling in the
pound on the rates of such electoral division, and not.
withstanding that such occupier and his tamily may not
Ibe, nor have been, inmates of the wo:khouse of such
union.

The clause was read a first time.
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN wished to move the following
clauses, in substitulion of that of his Hon. Friend ; he
would not, however, press them upon the House :
And, I. whereas it appears that in the formation of
elec-
toral divisions pa Iperism has been so allocated, in re-
spect of the property liable for its relief, as to cause the
nri-ssure of poor-rate taxittion to be very unequal:” be
it thirefore enacted tt at the Poor law Commissioners
shall revise and reconstitute the electoral divisions of
the several unions in such a manner as that the
pauperism of each district shall bear to the property
liable for its relief, as nearly an uniform proportion
throughout each union as circumstances will allow.
And be it enacted, that for each electoral division there
shall be formed a relief. committee, consisting of the
justices of the peace residing or possessing rateable pro-
perty in such electoral division; of the Roman Catholic,
Episcopalian Protestant, and Presbyterian clergymen
usually officiating in the churches existing in such
electoral division; of the guardians of the poor elected for
such electoral division; and of wardens elected in the

proportion of one for every inhabitants of such
electoral division, according to the census of 1841; which
warders shall be elected at the same time and in the
same manner as the gaurdians of the poor are elected.
And be it enacted, that th.:. relief committees, consti-
tuted as aOresaid, shall consider and determine who
are the persons entitled to receive relief in the
several electoral divisions for which they act, and shall
certify their opinion with respect to the claims of each
such person who may apply for relief to the board of
guardians, and shall state whether, in their opinion, the
person so applying ought to be relieved in the work-
house or out of it. And " whereas much inconvenience
has been found to result from the great size of several of
the unions of Ireland ;" be it enacted, that the Poor-
law Commissioners shall revise and reconstitute the
unions, so that no union shall contain more than one
hundred and fifty thousand acres. And whereas it has
been kund that the rate required to repay the original
cost of building the workhouses presses very unequally
upon property in the several unions of Ireland : be it
enacted, that the repayment of the loans borrowed under
direction of the Poor-law Commissioners, for the construe-,
tiOn of the workhouses, shall be defrayed by means of a
rate leviable according to the net valuation, as an uniform
poundage upon at ratpable property throughout Ireland
And whereas it has been found that the standard of
valuation differs very much in the several unions of

Ireland ; be it therefore enacted, that the Poor-law
Commissioners shall take immediate steps for obtaining
an uniform valuation of rateable property throughout
Ireland, in so far as the same may be attained by the
Acts now in force relative to Ire'eld. And be it enacted,

that persons receiving fixed incomes from rateable pro-
perty by way of jointure, rent-charge, or any other an-
nuity, not being created in satisfaction for debt, shall be
liable to all rates levied for the relief of the poor in the
same manner as if the incomes so received were re-
ceivable as rent. And be it enacted, that it shall
be lawful for the guardians of any union, if
they shall so think fit, to put out to nurse and to con-
tract from half-year to half-year for the maintenance of
any orphans or deserted children whom they may
consider fit objecti for relief, and to order payment
out of the rates, and charge against the union at large
such sums as may be agreed upon between the guar-
dians and the persons so contracting for the main-
tenance of such orphans or deserted children: pro-
vided always, that no such contract or payment shall
continue after any orphan or deserted child, for whose
maintenance such contract shall have been made, shodl
have attained the age of thirteen s ears; an I provided
als-, that su-h children shall be brought hecore the
guardians at least twice in each y.- ar during the sub-
sistence of such contract; and that in entering into such
contract, due provision shall he made for their einea-
tion and training in habits of industry, during the
period of such their maintenance out of the workhouse.
And whereas it is expedient to remove the
restrictions which tend to prevent boards of guardians
from assiging emigration, be it therefore te icted, that
it shall be lawful for the guardians of any union, sub-
ject to the regulations of the Poor law Commissioners,
to made with the consent of her Majesty's Principal
S cretary of State for the Colonial Department, to
assist any poor person who is a fit subject for relief, and
who shall have been approved by the Commissioners, to
emigrate to a British colony, and to charge the ex-
penses of such emigration on the union, or electoral
division, to which such person would be chargeable if
relieved by the guardians.
Sir G. GREY said he preferred the clause of the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Gregory), which tended to promote
what was very desirable, namely, emigration. He had
a few verbal objections to the clause, which he would
suggest at the proper time.
Mr. P. HOWARD said that it would be quite a new
principle to afford money to parties for emigration out
of the pcor-rates. He would suggest that after the
word emigrate there should be inserted " to any British
colony."
Mr. HAMILTON considered that there would be
many cases were such words would inflict a positive
hardship.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he had no objection to the
clause as it then stood.

Mr. P. HOWARD said that if a man emigrated out
of his own private resources, he had a right to go when,
he liked, but where he received public money he ought
to go to a British colony.
Mr. TRELAWNEY hoped that the words would not
be inserted.

The clause was then agreed to and inserted in the Bill.
Mr. GREGORY then rose to move the following
clause :—" And be it further enacted, that no person
who shall be in the occupation, whether under lease or
agreement, or as tenant at will, or from year to year, or
in any other manner whatsoever, of any land of greater
extent than the of a statute acre, shall be deemed
and taken to be a destitute poor person, under the pro-
visions of this Act, or of any former Act of Parliament ;
nor shall it be lawful for any board of guardians to grant
any relief whatever, in or out of the workhouse, to any
such occupier, his wife, or children ; and if any person
having been such occupier as aforesaid, shall apply to say
board of guardians for relief, as a destitute poor person,
it shall not be lawful to such guardians to grant such
relief until they shall be satisfied that such person has
ben& fide and without collusion absolutely parted with
and surrendered any right or title which he may have
had to the occupation of any land over and stove such
extent as aforesaid, of one quarter of a statute acre."
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN said that as the Government
seemed prepared to concede the clause, it was almost
useless for him to object to it; but he could not allow it
to pass without entering his protest. An applicant
might only require relief for the time being, but the
effect of the clause would be to render him perpetually
a pauper.
Mr. CURTEIS said he would be sorry if tha Go-
vernment would accede to the proposition which he
would tell them would be very unpopular in this coun-
try. What was a quarter of an acre?—it was nothing;
and supposing a man had a lease of the land it might be
impossible for him to render It up in order to qualify
himself for relief.

Sir G. GREY said that a number of persons had been
appl)ing for relief who were small landholders, a class
of persons who were a principle source of the poverty of
the country. The subject had attracted the most serious
attention of the Government, and they considered that
the principle was good, as it would be a method to remedy
the evil to which he had alluded. There must be some
limit placed. They could not oblige a man to give up his
cottace r garden-ground. As the clause then stood, it
would come into operation immediately after the passing
of the Act, and the difficulty would be met by inserting
after the word " that" the words " from and alter the Ist
of November next."

After a few .ords from Mr. NEWDEGATE,

Mr. BELLEW said that he conceived this clause most •
essential to the well working of the Act. There were
an immense number of holders of land in Ireland
where farmers were under five acres, and who by relain-
ing them, and still b, corning entitled to relief, woull
most seriously injure the country. Tire Bill could not
be complete without such a clause,
Mr. POLTLETT SCROPE said that the Bid would
cause amoit st rious s. mal revolution in Ireland. and if

it could eff,ct its object quietly, it would be desirable ;
but if in the event of another famine, all theie small
holders were to be compelled to give up their farms,
how could they be provided with labour or subsistence
when the crisis was passed. lle would wish to know if
the Right lion. Gentleman c,nisiderei it consistent with
the principle of the Bill, that a man who might suffer
from temporary distress or sickness should be compelled
to give up his farm to obtain relief. He thought it would
be far better to leave the matter to the discretion of the
board of guardians to give relief or withhold it in cer-
tain cases. Unless some such power were given, the
Bill would have a most ruinous affect.
Mr. SFIARMAN CRAWFORD was not disposed to
deny that some limitation was necessary in the case of
holders of land, but still he could not agree with the
clause as it then stood. Suppose a man were overtaken
by sickness or any ether casualty, and was compelled to
seek relief, was he to be deprived of his land 01 cottage
and the well-earned fruits of his labour ? Could not
some relief be extended in such cases in the way of
loans ? He thought that the board of guardians should
have a discretion in such a case.

Mr. BELLEW said that in the case of a man being
sick, there was the sum of 100,0001. per annum levied in
Ireland for hospitals and dispensaries. The poor were
as well taken care of in the event of sickness as they
possibly could be
Mr. YOUNG said that the Hon. Member for Stroud
had said that this clause would produce a sudden revolu-
tion in Ireland by suddenly reducing men from being
landholders to paupers. There was nothing in the clause
that would at all accelerate a man's fall. It merely pro-
vided that, in the event of his becoming. chargeable upon
the poor-rates, he should no longer retain the land which
he could no longer cultivate with benefit to himself or
to the country.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said that he wished to explain
what he had said. He had strenuously impressed upon the
Government that in no instance should the tools of a
man's trade be taken from him. The operation of the
present clause was so stringent that a man's tools were
taken from him, and he ha wished to provide against
any such fact under the present law.
After a few words from Mr. WILLIAMS and Mr.
VILLIEns,
Mr. S. O'BRIEN thought the clause was neces-
sary for the welfare of the agriculture of Ireland. There
never would be a system of money wages
introduced
into that country, except by a provision of this kind;
and he was therefore glad the Government had given
their sanction to the principle of the clause.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said there was this difference
between the poor labourer in England and Ireland, that
whereas in England he had a cottage built fur him, in
Ireland he built it himself on land which he held at will.
This ought to bo taken into consideration in dealing with
a question of this land.
Mr. GREGORY ft-plied to some objections urged by
previous speakers to the clause.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL thought the clause would
be a very useful one. It would do away with that
class who were half labourer and half farmer, but' nei-
ther the one nor the other. He gave the principle of
the Bill his decided support.
After a few words from Mr. CURTEIS,
Colonel RAWDON supported:the clause, which he
thought would prove a very useful provision in the Bill.
Mr. ARC 11 BOLD said he bad known holders of
twenty acres of land applying for work under the La-
bour-rate Act, and there were cases in which the chil-
dren of holders of ten acres actually were employed, and
employed, perhaps, even to the present day. He would
support the clause under the impression that if such
parties would continue to ask relief, the sooner they
were off' the Land the better.

Mr. SHAW supported the clause.
Mr. Alderman HUMPHERY thought it would be too
bad to deprive such small holders of- land of the relict
which the Bill would give them. He would suggest as
an amendment that holders of five acres, instead of one-
half acre, should be excluded from the benefit of the Bill.
Sir GEORGE GREY said he thought the Hon. Mem-
ber did not understand the nature of the clause. Ac-
cording to his amendment, a person might hold four and
three-quarter acres, and yet be entitled to relief.
The original amendment was then agreed to.
On the motion being put that the clause as amended
stand part of the Bill,
Mr. P. SCROPE objected to it as severe and uncalled
for.
The Gallery was then clearel for a division, when
there appeared.
117
For Ilause
Against it
—llO
Majority for the clause
The clause was, therefore, ordered to stand part of
the Bill.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN then moved that the follow-
ing clauses should be added to the Bill:—And " whereas
it appears that in the formation of electoral divisions
pauperism has been so allocated, in respect of the pro-
perty liable for its relief, as to cause the pressure of
poor-rate taxation to be very unequal:" be it therefore
enacted, that the Poor-law Commissioners shall revise
and reconstitute the electoral divisions of the several
unions in such a manner as that the pauperism of each
district shall bear to the property liable for its relief, as
nearly an uniform proportion throughout each union ar
circumstances will allow. And be it enacted, that for each
electoral division there shall be formed a relief commit-

tee, consisting of the justices of the peace residing or pos-
sessing rateable property in such electoral division ; of
the Roman Catholic, El .s!opeliar; Pitt, stant, and Pres-
byterian clergymen usually officiating in the churches
existing in such electoral division ; of the guardians
of the poor elected for such electoral division ; end of
wardens elected in the proportion of one for every
inhabitants of such electoral division, ac-
cording to the census of 1841 ; which wardens shall
be elected at the same time and in the same manner as
the guardians of the poor are elected. And be it en-
acted, that the relief committees, constituted as afore-
.

said, shall consider and determine who are the persons
entitled to receive relief in the several electoral divisions

for which they act, and shall certify their opinion with
respect to the claims of each such person who may apply
for relief to the board of guardian, and shall state
whether, in their opinion, the person so ap-
plying ought to be relieved in the workhouse or out of it.
Sir GEORGE GREY thought it would be actually
impt,ssible to act upon the principle laid down by the
llon. Gentleman in his first clause.

Mr. HAMILTON said the d;s,pprohation of the dig-
ti;alate rela,ion establi.ind by the electoral
divisions betwe-ll the population tiNd the property was
universal.

Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL corroborated the observa-
tion of the lion. Gentkman.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN said the divi,ions into unions
were most unequal. Jr Ra:hdown Union, fur example,
there were 69 000 acres, m.ttile in oilier unions there were
so mar:y as 498.000 acres, and 3c)0.000 acres, an ine-
quality for whi,h there was no at.sionab'e retons.
Some change vva•i eliarly very de,irable in this r, spect.
The clauscs were negatived witio a division.
Mr. SMI O'BRIEN th,n moved the following
clause :—And " whereas much inc: nvenience has been
found to result fr:m the great size of several of the
unions of Ireland ;" Be it enacted, that the Poorlaw
Commissioners shall revise and reconstitute the unions,
so that no union shall contain more than one hundred
and fifty thousand acres.
Mr. VESEY trusted that some measure would be

:ken to subdivide the unions, and he hoped also that

the electoral districts would be so arranged as to bear

some proportion to the local properties.
Sir G. GREY said that the Commissioners had the

power of reconsidering and arranging the limits of the
electoral districts, and he saw no reason why the same
rule should not apply to the unions also.
Lord G. BENTINCK had always advocated the ex-

tension of the unions. The districts at present were
immensely disproportioned to the population, in some
instances the applicants for relief having to walk
seventeen miles, and i❑ a very great number of cases
the distance was equally great. The district compre-
hended in the Baliina union was very extensive, and
what made the evil the worse was, that the union
was situated at the one extremity of the dis-
trict, and the western, or more populous part
of the district, was some forty-six miles distant.—
(Hear, hear.) He believed that the system of union
government, and more especially of that part of it
which referred to the care of the sick, was capable of
very great improvement. Perhaps it might be within
the knowledge of the Hon. Gentleman the Solicitor-
General for Ireland, that in the year 1843, when
Mr. Gulston was in Galway there were upwards
of two thousand persons lying ill of fever
1,500 of which number were in the streets and lanes of
the town, and many of them were exposed before the
doors of their houses, with scarcely a rag to cover /hem.
In the course of 48 hours Mr. (julston constructed a
fever hospital, at an expense of 3001., capable of contain-
ing one thousand inmates. The result was, that out of
the 2,000 persons that passed through the fever hOspital,
only 17 died. Now, if this principle had been
adopted in the present session, the Government might
have saved an enormous sum of money, and the lives of
hundreds of thousands of people. He eas sure that in
the year 1847 not Jess than 4.000,000 L would have been
saved to the revenue of Great Britain. The expense of
the public works for the year ending the 13th of March
instant, amounted to no less than 13,142,000/. The ex-
pense of the staff alone was 1,193,0001. Kow, he was in
a conditi, n to show that if they had extended the work-
houses—if they had built 400 workhouses upon the
same principle as that upon which Mr. Gulston con-
structed a similar building in Galway, and supported in
them the 2,200,000 paupers of Ireland, they would not
only have saved 4,000,0001., but they would have in-
creased the comforts of the poor, and avoided all chance
of demoralising the peasantry. There would ['eve been
no forsaking the land for being employed on the
public works ; and, had recourse been had
to this 53 stem, hundreds and thousands of
lives would have been saved, while the general condi-
tion of the people would have been greatly improved.
Government could tell them the number of potatoes
which Ireland had produced, but they would not give
them a return of the number of poor wretches who had
perished under the foolish system of free trade. When
Government, in the month of August, knew that the po-
tato, .he only food of the people, had failed, they ought
to had taken decisive steps to supply the wants of the
people with another description of food, but instead of
doing so, Government had sbown an utter indifference
for the sufferings of the people, and now they boldly
refused to supply the House with any infor-
mation upon the great misery of Ireland ; but
he could tell them that the time was coming when it
would be wrung from them by the united voice of the
three kingdoms.
Mr. LABOUCHERE was anxious that the House
should proceed with the consideration of this important
Bill, and he should not then intrude himself upon the
House had it not b'en tor an tls,.ettion of the Noble

rd. He owed it to himself, to his own character, and
the feelings of the Government with whom he acted, to
make scum reply to it. The Noble Lord had said that
Government were indifferent to the sufferings of the
people of Ireland ; and he should content himself with
giving a contradiction to that assertion as explicit
and as complete as his resp,ct for the House
would allow him to give.—(Cheer,..) Ile felt
too deeply the responsibilities which re,ted upon him,
as a Minister of tie Crown, to lose his temper in dis-
cussing a question of this magnitude, and no provoca-
tion should induce him to do so, and nothing but the
provocation the Noble Lord had given could have called
from him the declaration he had made. He trusted that
he had not expressed auy sentiment in opposition to the
principle of the Bill, or that he had not displayed a
spirit which was not in perfect consonance with that
which the Government desired to display, but if he had
it had been elicited by the charge which the Noble Lord
had so unjustifially brought against the Government.
Sir G. GREY trusted that the observations which
had been made were not in consonance with those
which had been evinced by the enunciation of the Noble
Lord's views ; and it should be recollected that the
cases which had been adduced were in contravention of
the principle which h had propounded. There would
be ample opportunity fce discussing them in the Com-
' mittee, when the clauses were brought under the notice
of the House. He sincerely hoped that the Hon. Mem-
ber would not press any of his suggestions to a division.
Mr. REPTON had not the slightest wish to detain
the House from the discussion of the clauses, and must
say that he gave the greatest credit to the Government
for their exertions to relieve the distress in Ireland.

Mr. S. O'BRIEN had, no more than the last Member,
a wish to detain the House from the consideration of the
subject b«-fore them ; but he believed that in the doc-
trines of free trade, to which they professed their adhe-
rence, there was a remedy to be found ; and if they had
acted up to those principles, he believed that it was not
neees;ary that a single life should be sacrificed in Ire-
land. He trusted, therefore, that they would not now
depart from their principles, but that they would recol-
lect what was the amount of distress that was likely to
ensue from a too astringent adhesion by them.
On the clause bsing put by Mr. GREENE,
Mr. NEW DEGA'rE said that it was very possible
that the Noble Lord had used expressions stronger than
the meaning which he intended they should bear—
(Laughter)—but while saying this, be was quite ready
to give her Majesty's Government credit for every desire
teywisteheomuetd a
to relieve the distress in Ireland, but to do that they
to be
division, bo bound.
must depart from their rigid construction of the priucPn les
of
Tp(htleitettlaaluseecown
sm then eDn
Y which
negativedh
on the proposition that the origina • • 1
clause
should be
brought up with the report,
Mr. HAMILTON and Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN expressed
doubts as to the way in which it was 1 kely to work.
Sir GEORGE GREY explained that it would not
depend on the guardians so much as on the Act itself.
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN proposed the insertion of the
following clauses :—And whereas it has been found
that the rate required to repay the original cost of
building the workhouses presses very unequally upon
property in the several unions in Ireland ; be it enacted,
that the repayment of the loans borrowed under direc-
tion of the Poor-law Commissioners, for the construction
of the workhouses, shall be defrays d by means of a rate
leviable according to the net valuation, as an uniform
poundage upon all rateable property throughout Ireland.
And whereas it has been found that the standard of
valuation differs very much in the several unions of Ire-
land; be it therefore enacted, that the Poor-law Com-
missioners shall take immediate steps for obtaining an
uniform valuation of rateable property throughout Ire-
land, in so far as the same may be attained by the Acts
now in force relative to valuation. And be it enacted,
that persons receiving fixed incomes from rateable
property by way of jointure, rent-charge, or any other
annuity, not being created in satisfaction for debt,
shall be liable to all rates levied for the relief of the
poor in the same manner as it the incomes so received
were receivable as rent. And be it enacted, that it
shall be lawful for the guardians of any union,
if they shall so think fit, to put out to nurse and to
contract from half-year to half-year for
nance of any orphans or deserted children whom
they
order may consider fit objects for relief, and to ord pa-yment
out of the rates, and charge against the large
such at
such sums as may be agreed upon
between the guardians
and the persons so contracting for the maintenance of
ac's orphans or desert, d
children. Provided always,
that no such contrAct or y sh 11 . continue after
t a
any orphan or deserted child, for whose maintenance_
such contract shall have beeni
made, shall hale attained
the age of thirte
en years.
After a short discussion, in which Sir G. Grey,
Morgan J. O'Connell, Mr. Bellow, Sir H. W. Barren, Mr.
Shaw, and Mr. Archbold took part, the chases were
negatives.
Sir GEORGE GREY introduced a clause, removing
the restriction of a three months' residence in the union
workhouse previous to establishing a claim to emigration
relief, which was agreed to.
Mr. VILLIERS STUART moved the following
clauses :—And whereas in many districts in Ireland,
from the local position of the county infirmary, the poor,
who from accidents or other causes may require surgical
assistance in an hospital, are unable from the distance of
the said infirmary to obtain it, and it is desirable that
this evil should be remedied : be it enacted, that it
sh .11 be lawful for the guardians of any union
for the relief of the poor in Ireland, to attach
to the poorhouse of the said union, provided