The Sun.
London, England, 1812-04-22 00:00:00

U' not impeach the &man_ idatbdlid religidnj
-
Ilavrisct it doe) oot inlertere MIA the establish-
' lenti of this country. We d'd not object to the
/11
"%is Of the Cathelic tellgien as observed, by other
llati°l9, and t herefo r we have no reason to object
i
°an alliance wi4h Cat holtc melons. Acting on this
principle, we hat, without inconsistency, formed al-'
with Spain, Portugal, and Italy. The- Noble
L'
ord proceeded to notice the manner in which the
Fatholics 'of Ireland had urged their claims. At the
the fits' eoncessi ins- were grauted, their lan-
gnage way that of mildneoi and submission ; but the
utnent they gainea a ,taliding-place, they resorted
° the language of intimelatioe, atid such was the
language-which they had held of late. Some pub-
i
I'edlions had issued front the prey on the subject,
t)t Which the centetits were as infamously • false as
1'1.4 thing that ever was published in the world. In
i"esst a disposition appeared to rake up all the sub-
leeels of differenee in former times, to irritate the
'ailiolics against the Protestants, and the Protestants
against the Catholics ; and, in a word, to work a
Bellaration between England and Ireland. To pre.
veal. this separation, they were told it would be.wise
-t° grant the Catholics what they asked. How would
tflta prevent it Would she increase of their means
aheir disposition to seek a separation ? Hit
84w no reason to think this, but on the contrary he
could not' bur apprehend, that with the means of
making themselvea more formidable, the disposition
to be hostile would be likely to increase. lf, when
They _came with the language of intimidatiou, thelr
"tittbauds were complied with, it would have a ten-
ten' Y inflame them, and 'to call forth more un:
:11Nonable requisitions, so that we should -soon be
placed in a situation nut less deplorable than that in -
Zlllll the poor. -Saxons stood when they were in the
1-41 of buyii:g off the Danes to save their possessions
jorn being piundered. Brat then it was said that
:11rds and cautions might, be devised to make all
Cafe, and therefore it was contended they ought
go into the Committee. was, however, to
remembered that nothing less than absolute COM-
c4nCe with their demands would satisfy them ; to
ol:at purpose then should they go into the- Corn-
tiktee ? It was of no use, as the Petitioners had
elated, that neither as Catholics nor as Irishmen
t
`'10(.1 they submit to domestic nomination, or to
;Pe up the veto. Now it was very singular that
()se. who would not concede 10 their own Go-
v'Tntlik'ot the slightest interference in the Dn-
Ilr'alien of reeir Bishops), should wish notwith-
a I'ealldiag, to have the Established Plotestant Church
ti
kr their power. • 'Was it rational that those who
tit'ihed to advise the King with resped to the Pros
'sl'lll establishments, should refuse to give him the
4
°sl conlratted negative on the nominations in their
owe "
Church? Was it not necessary that care
tiotild be taken that our establishments should not
11,nder thecontroul of those who were known-to
11°66:e to the Protestant Church This, however,
ti,° id. be done; if the Catholics were placed in a
eta'ion in which they might gain the poWer of
ti,ov,.""nleof. To shew the consisteney of the Ca-
,' b acs, he wouid state a short answer which had
egin
„• ,
ny one of their body on a question put
bitatm respelling their conduct. A Catholic•dig-
liarY Was asked, " since they could concede the
fneetlialt °n
of
these Bishops to. the French Govern-
ecie' equal l'3l)Pened it that they could not place
cottfidetice in their own r• To this the reply
was'
that they could trust it to a true son of the
•••••,?urch, but not to a Protestant Princt." His Lord-
-mit) next, noticed the,resolation-lately come to in the
County of Galway, not to send any representative to
i'.arliament who would-not- first promise not to so-
'telt nor accept of any place, honour, or emolu-
. !I,ent, till all the Catholic claims were conceded,—
what purpose, he would ask, could their Lord-
2"Ps go into -a Committee after this ? Were they
prepared to concede all that was required ? If not,
it was useless to go into the Committee, as, with
4136 than all-this the Catholics told them plainly
tey would not be satisfied. He then went on to
(New the consequences, that would follow of having
i;atholics 'in the Government. Bound to their
rie,lB, such persons could not be free agents, as if
,their conduct met with the disapprobation of their
eilritnal guides, eXCOilinflUtiiCintiOn would be the
e°llB,Nueln e. How was it possible such persons
Cold unite with x Protestant aravernment ?ea.•
ld it be supposed, too, that such persons
ill
-'d go on' ,wit bout their Church ? And was
t
clot apprehended that a Ronaish Esteblish-
Te:t.t Would follow Whoever made up his
iii11)(1, then, to vote for the present motion, must
ih 14,ke up his mind to give up the Protestant Church
trel.itid,to make way for the establiShment of a
Catholic Church.—(Cries of no, no !) He
"tended that this would follow in all probability,
z
expressing this coevidiun, lie concluded, re-
Pelting the words used by Lord Clare, in 1793,
1)."1.011 will go on step by step till at last you cata-
Ish a Roman Catholic-Church in Ireland."
The Marquis of WeelEseay and the Earl of Ser..-
tak.rose at the same time. The House called' on
eerd Wellesley, the Lord Chancellor named Lord
iil'tirk. A short conversation ensued, in which
e Lord Chancellor, Lord Lauderdale, and the
`"hake of Norfolk participated. In the end the
ttrquis of Wellesley resumed his seat, and Lord
'aelkirk having first caught the Lot& Chancellor's
i_fe'e) was considered as being in possession of the
()use.
Lord SELKIRK thought if the claims of the Ca-
tholics were conceded, the differences between them
11:14 the Protestants would be heard of no more.
Y reliving the former from all their religious dis-
abilities, all distinctions between the two sees would
ue done away„ and both would be united in one corn-
-11,1"n bond of union. He, however, was sotry to say
1
t could n,'n think, with the Noble Mover, that such
,2 ale/Niue would at once procure the immediate and
decided support of nor four millions -of people,
as he believed the principal cause of the disaf-
-1 reclion of the lower orders of the people in Ireland
to sPlio'g from historical sources, which could not
't once be done away. They seemed to feel the
natural antipathy of a conquered people to their
c"(luerors. This time alene could femme, but
that time might have its proper operation, they
c'uglit to banish, as far as lay in their power, every
ttiling that had a tendency to keep up existing dif-
lereneeS.
The Marquis WELLESLEY said- he was anxious
t°v he honour of speaking after his Noble and
tl'eartitl Friend w_ll9 'prvceded the Noble Earl who
'ad just down because he felt considerable stir-
._

6E hid speech, 116 had cielftimented tipiiii B.t&O;iotliCii
was said to have tleen proposed in the County of
Galway, and Winch it was thought might spread all
over the country. The circumetaiice was not de-
serving of particular notice, if it were not for the
importance which appeared to be attached to it
by his Noble and Learned Friend (Lola' Redes-
dale). It watestated by that• Noble Loid, as a grand
objection to the motion before their Lordships, that
the Catholics of the county of Galway, at a meeting,
in which Lord French was in the chair, had agreed
to Resolutions, pledging, them not to vote for any
matewlio would not subscribesj to a test or declaration
that he would not solicit, nor accept for himself, or
tor any of his connexions personally, or through any
other channel, of any place of trust, emolument,
honour, or profit, until the remaining disabilities at-
feeting- the Catholics should be.removed. When his,
Noble and' Learned Friend pressed this topic upon
their Lordships' consideration, he did not aeena to be
aware of the effect the test Would have in relieving
the Administration from a weight of solicitation on
the part of those who might be induced to subscribe
to the test. But, really, he did not expect that such a
topic should have been so insisted upon, and so se-
riously pressed forward into the -front of the argh-
went, nor should he himself have theught of ad-
verting to it in this manner, if it ha 3 not been tor
the earnestness with which it had been urged.—
Having thus touched upon that• part of the .mite-
went' of the Noble and Learned Lord, he shduld
next beg ' lease to come to the immediate quas.ion
befote their Lordships, which was, w hither, under
all the circumstances of the case—atter all the peti-a
Lions which had been presented and were lyilig upon
their Lordships' table—after all the solicitation's
which had been year after year preferred to Parlia-.
ment upon the subjea—atter-all the applications in
favour of the Catholic claims which had been for-
warded from various parts of Ireland as well as teis
Country, and from persons of different religious per-
suasionse--aipplications in most points, as he should
contend, favourable ; but, whether favourebte or
not, all equally tending to sitengthen his view of
the case., The question, he should repeat, was,
whether, with alt these rousideratioas iti their con-
templation, they were tampered to ne alive tee piu-
position submitted to them by the Noble Lord who
brought forward the subject ? He atruuld here beg
leave to put a question to the N'able and leeareed
Lord, and to -thick Lordships genet ally---A question
which he should continue to pi ess most strongly
Upon their attention, aid tr:luently revere to-, to alt
he should say that niiii, short as he trusted that
would be; he would eel( whether any man who telt
the importance of the subjaci, who thought with
him, that Without cencession to the Ca hot cs, there
would be infinite danger to the Protestant Establish-
ment, and that conceasioe would create analill,iettiointaol
bulwark for its security and support, could, cue:sta..;
ently with his duty toius coutory, bring i
negative thisprOpositiort ? He was very ready to allow,
that in the view taken of the subject by the Nuble
and Learned Lord, such a decision might be con-
scientiously made; but whilst he- was prepared to
admit that for liumanity,"integrity, and honour, for
intimate acquaintance with the .principles of the laws
and constitution of the realm, and that for most of
the other qualities and attaiaments ihatillusitrhaeteZ.
charaaer of a public man, thete was no man his sea
perior in the country, tiea..ati behha, irons
he took himself of the question under consideration,
to look upon the notions entertained teshedleg it by
that Noble and Learned Lord as erroneous. Those,
undoubtedly, who thought that the concession of the
claims of the Catholics would be productive of danger
to the stability of the Protestant establishments .in
Church and Sate, and as direttly tending 'to subvert the
alliance between both, could consistently come to a
decision against this important question. Wit hout
entertaining any intention to go into a discusaion-ot
the question, whether a national religious esteblish-
ment be necessary for the security of the State, he
should take that opportunity just to state that he
looked ,upon such an establishment as not only ne.
cessary, but indispensably essential to the liberty,
the glory, the power of a State—to every thing con-
fleeted .with and contributive to the means, the
magnitude, -and the strength of a nation. It was,
in his opinion, the primary duty of every State, to
creel, to exalt, and to maintain, a national establish-
ed religion. But though this was a ptimary, it Was
not the. sole duty towards God or man of theelti, laetce.
, It ought to be exercised, undoubtedly,ilhuota o
but
c in
alli-
ance with other duties—duties, w
lion with which it could not be pertormed in a
manner calculated to prornute the happiness, the .
presperity,, and the well_ being of a nation.- e
Ween he said this, be meant the duties of national
charity and -benevolence- to provide tor the . hap-
piness of all the classes of the cottunueity. With-
eta that, what Was
,generally calied strength and
vigour was violence; and lie must be permitted to
say, that violence was not vigour, particularly in'
support of a religious establishment. If violence of
that description were to be resorted to, it must be
evidently inconsistent with the happiness of that
part of the people upon which it operated ; and con-
trary to that primary duty of charity, winch he had
before alluded to, and to -which the -nation had. a
.. right, as well as subversive of that equal-justice to
which every member of a free state was entitled.-e-.
What justice could thre be without liberty ? And
what was liberty without order and regulating law ;
or religion without charity to man, especially a
Christian religion, still more, a Protestant religion ;
but above all,in English reformed. religion,which em-
phatically and truly rested upon the principle of most
effectually promoting the happiness of the people I
The English national. reformed Church ought to he
such that its professors should he able to hold out
the hand of benevolence and the balm of charity to
every other religious persuasion, in which lie could
Contemplate the purity of its doctrines and the cot-
redness and integrity of its foundation, looking up to
it with affection as well as veneration for its benign
spirit.and salutary influence in the preservation of his
civil rights, and the amelioration of his civil condi-
tion. A church of such a description should want
nothing necessary either to its.dignity or splendour.
The prin4le which every man would admit to be the
grand desideratum was that which banished oppres-
sion, end contributed to the happiness of the peo-
ple. Religious worship might in some cases inter-
fere with human laws. Religious exercises should
be advantageous to the community, and as such
generally uninterrupted by the Government, but he
del not mean to condemn the interteience of Go-


hen tie in and his Creafoi must becorhe matter of
hutrian actions; and this dila-titled, he was surprised •
hew any man could sayehar it could at no time be
Justly subject
.to human law. As well might '
it be maintained that crime could not be • sub-
ject to human tem: Crimes had frequently been,
committed in religious exercises. These, from
whatever motives they proceeded, when embo-
died in human proceedings, were still crimes.
He would probe this subject to the quick, because
whatever complaints might be made of persecution
when religioueexercises we•re: impeded,, he was of
opinion, that the Government had a right to pro-
hibit them whenever they they appeared to be den-
gerous to the State. As a Noble Lord had said on
a former debate, in such a case, " necessity creates
a right," but pass the bounds of that necessity and
persecution begins. He could not admit the claims
of the Catholics of Ireland to be a claim of'rig:it; but
the he would say, that when a large body of men
(like the Catholics) ‘eere designate.d as:unfit to serve
their country on account of their religious opinions,
he thought they bad a strong ClaiLll on the justice of
their country, to have such disabilities removed
Having stated this, it was his wish to follow the tie- .
tails into which it naturally led ; and he must say,
upon a review of the whole state of those laws which •
were now proposee'. to the consideration. of The.
House, that so tar from. being, as they wero some-
times represented, a fundamental, immutable, and
Irre-veteible part of the Constitution, they were above
all I!,es. codes ever instituted ie the, world, the most
distinctly marked as tempe,arve and liable to be al-
tered and' varied by times and circumstances. The
question would come finally to this plain short is-
sue. All were agreed in the necessity of protect-
ing the
.Established Church of England at the ex-
pence of their lives, if the-alternative shoukl be.
put, of protecting' her in all her immunities, in
all her features of-- doctrine and of discipline, and in
the po-session of every power which was Feces-
4ary to heecharatiet, her dignity, and her honour.
Bat then came the question, whether this object
• would he best accomplished by a system of restraint, -
ora system- of coneiiiation ?' In his honour, in his
conscience, he thooght the security of the etnpite de-
pended tin the just consideration of this question;
on the just consideration of this point, .
whether a system of• exclusion and restraint should •
continue, or vvhether_a system of charity, of conci-e
liation, of harmony, and peace, should be again re-
verted to ? In all that he had said, or should say,
npon the subject, he would inculcate the absolute
necessity of consideration. He did not call upon-the'
Home to make concessions to the Catholics, but to
consider the laws atfecting them. The quesiion had
se much agitated the public mind, the hope of con 7
cession and amelioration had so very deeply inter-
ested them, that inquiiy was rendered still more ne-
cessary than ever. Would their decision, be it what
it might, carry such-weight -and authority as if the
question had been teferred to a Committee ? But
go ng into the details, he would address the Noble-
Lord 'as a Noble Earl or ea former night, in a speech
replete with pure eloquence, practical wisdom, and
Statesman-like views, had addressed the Noble
Lord on the Woolsack--" You ask me to ,chew you
my securities, 1 ask you to show me the danger."—
Or to depart from the quotation, though not trout
the spirit in which it was -dictated, he would say,
" sheer ale peer present security." in what
situation then did Ireland stand ? They were
aware that nearly the whole nation, at least a
considerable part of it were Roman Catholics.---.
According to our present policy, these persons were
admitted-to a certain extent at the Bite they were
allowed to reach a certain point of rank in the army.
They were admitted to the eledive franchise, "out
excludedfrorn the right to sit in Parliament, or-even
to act as Magistrates, except upon such recom-
mendation as was seldom obtained, that of the Lord
Lieutenant himself. He had heard varions modes
of representing the state of the question. It would
seem to any one exercising his unbiassed judgment
in the first instance, that such a state of things must
alienate their minds ; but in order to meet this ob-
jection, it was-- contended, that the restraints of
which they complained operated • generally, and
therefore constituted no hardship; that all per-
sons must -submit to certain tests before ,they
could sit in Parlidment, and consequently • that
no direct invidious distinction could be charged
against the Government in that case. This appear-
' ect to him to be a most extraordinary mode-of teas •
soiling and a most evasive and unsatisfactory manner
of putting the case, fur it might happen as it actually
did in this instance, that the tests might be per-
fectly consistent 'with the faith of one party, and-
- direCtly the reverse with that of the other, who might deem
them incompatible not only with their faith, but with their
conscience and their honour. Supposing, for instance, that
the Office of Lord President of the Council was vacant, as it
was the other day, and that any individual accepting of it
was bound to take an oath that he thought the expedition
to Copenhagen was a master stroke of policy necessary
to the interests, and conducive to the honour of. the nation.
He could see very well, that one Noble Earl, would
not only subscribe heartily to the proposition, but . re-
joice in such an opportunity of manifesting his sincerity,
while others would hesitate and refuse ; so' that though one
Class of subjeets might take the test consistently, another
m ght be ready to expire on the spot, rather than adopt its
principles. was, he most say, a lIIVSUIC unequal and
unjust. There were some who regarded the question merely
as a struggle for-political power; for his part he could not
draw the distindion between civil right and ,political power. ,
. In a free state- he' would say, that political power Was a ne-
cessary concomitant, as it constituted a necessary protec-
tion to civil right ; he did not say the attual•possession
of political power, but the eligibility to it. There were
many who insisted that this was no hardship, who Wure.ready
to address the Catholics in the name of their Protestant lire.
threat, and to represent to them, a ter hiving exercised the'
great fundions of the State, and experienced its dignities in
their own persons, and in the persons of their ancestor's,
that they were quite mistaken in their feelings upon the sub-
ject, who were ready-to exclaim--" t Gentietnen, you are
quite wrong in regretting your exclusion from those dIStIIIC-
We have gone through all'the offices, we have tasted
all the honours, we have mingled in all .the business of Go.,
vetument, WA Cif party, and we tell you that ' all vanity
and vexation of spirit.' The true state of,,ha)opine,4s is that
ill which we shall keep you, the' greatest rood is that we
shall contnue to bestow upon- you -•a quiet philosophical
ooscurity ;" beyond this in their generosity they Might pro.
raise them a security in person and an property, but to wJnim
would they dare to den) it ? This was ILA a boon, n was a
right secured to them by the CoPstitution under which they
were born, ai,al refused to none, but L, the •lowest criMinals
who had forfeited their inheritance by their crimes. For
his part, he should say, that office was thegreatest glory to
which a British subject could aspire, but to he shot out sit
the hope of high employment, tot e excluded taut the pos-
sibility of counselling the State, of advising up- it The ques-
tions of peace or war, of being occupied in rite pturriOtion of
public happiness anddoniestie prosperity, of beini., 'raised by
a gracious sovereign to the most distinguished tumours, ac-
companied with the delighttuiconsciousneas of owitte them
partly to his own servii.es, and pill) to the glorious Consti-
maim, by which thr,;e were encouraged; to. he e-x-
-c,uded from occupati,iia and- ftelings, aiticiewards of this
•

. .
Tategreat Demcitthenei, when defending himself against 114
adversary, stated, as the calamity he dreadet aree.e all
others, the loss of the favour of the State. 'ln such a 'predica—
ment did the Catholic4-of I reland stand at this inement ; they
had lost the favour ofthe Stare, a loss of which no one could
calculate the value, but those tvho experiiheed the Want,
and dseerved the posseasi iri. But this was net all ; rine of,
the hatdest circumstances connected with their condition
was, that the code had a tendency to degrade all tense who
were affeded by it.—That the spirit was more severe than
the letter, and that its objects were marked tort as snare-
thine in the nature of criminals, or at least of suspected per-
eons. No one had- a Inkier (Tudor) of the lieeralny of the
present head of the Goventineht in I reland, bit it was iinpos-
sible thr hint or for any one, while such a code remained, to res.
move the stigma from r•at body. It w s iinpessinle not to
think it productive of daileer to the established church. The
pretence was, that it was iidirded as a aeaurity tor zliaz esta-
blishment, but he hid always considered them the worst enee
mica of religion wh represented rewidionsa disabillrtes, and
penal laws, a necessary adjunct to the establi,bineut. fie •
knew a Prelate remarkable fer ail the mild and virtuous at--
tributes of his ref isti .n, woo, ne was sure, would not deny,
that if the eStablishment could possibly exist without them
it must become stronger twin their misuse-sit:lot absolutely
necessary, they were p-ssiiively injurious., Would not afly
man, who was asksil where the relaxation of these securi-
ties (it securities they could be called) would be attend-if 'sifts
must danger, would he not-point to the subaltern branches of
the army and navy ? Yet in those subdtern oranches, they
were discominued,and discontinued in the worst °fall possible
way,- with a prohibitiun ot ad educe:mein. The seine was the
case with the Bar; a curious line wits drawn to pi even, them
from serving the-Crown Could any thing be more injuri-
ously projected to- inntse disleament and aggravate danger?
Such was'the pol:ey toward, I ielenit, and wino was the re..
stilt ? Could we boast a vigorous Church' Establishment in
that part of the United Kole-dim; or did he nut decnbe it
justly when he said it was in. establishment of Bishops with-
out Clergy, and that in some parishes there was iteith -r elebe.
house nor Parson ? He del n mention this as-a reproach
to Ireland, but te the State. The Churais had trot streogilt
to bear up against the inass of discontent created by this sys-
tent, rind the expedient of arraying its debility in arnetunsei veil
only.to acceler he its decline. He could out conceise how it
was possible for such a state of things to continue, and there-
tire it was that.tie pressed their Lordships to nicer the cunsi-
deration. Ile would say one word on the advantages to be de..
rived from the system he recommended. These persees'
whO were cemented together in a mass or discoutent by re.
ligioil, he would admit into the Constitutioie He woufn
allow, that religion was one of the greatest motives or
human action, but it was not the only.anotive ; there
were others winch tended to weaken a"tra dissipate net
operation. The Roman Catholic. Church was more sub.
jeer to the Court of Rome than any other establish-
ment ; but in Roman Catholic countries he slid not
see that they had any notion of submitting to the Pope,
and one of the main dangers with resped to Ireland
struck him to be the circumstances of the Roman Ca-
tholics not being enore under the Protection of the State, of
the priesthood not being mote connected with the ariatocracy •
of the country. lie, therefore, should propose to take a
security against spirituals, by giving them temporals
On presenting theta- with. this body ,of danger, he -would
ask, would they not consider, the subject, in justice -to
their. King, in justice to their country. in justice to the
great cause in which they were embarked, could they re-
fuse it ? The nexi point Which suggested itself was
the danger which was apprehended from the removal of die;
restrictions. In reference to this, it would be their duty to
compare the real danger on one hand, with the alleged dan.
ger on the other. Our present security was in oaths,- some
of which they refused • to take, and othgrs of which they
took, so that our principleof security was reliance upon their
truth. This was rather strange that we should rely upon.
their truth when looking for securities, and charge thee)
with falsehood when estimating their deserts. We presumett
upon one side that they would not violate oaths, ant on the
other refused to trust them. But what was the ground on
which all our terrors rested ? It was found that the Catholics,
it admitted into the Constitution, would seek the abolition
of the present Estahl shmeitte. Supposing, tOr the sake of
argument, this principle to b: fixed in their minds, was it
not possible- that it might arise from the ey stern ef exclusion
under which they laboured ? . It so, their admission to al
the privileges of subjeds' would extinguishthe principle, and
if not, they might be sure it would not increase the means of
its eeforcement, On the contrary, it would weaken those,
means, by preventing the whole from acting as the whole might
be inclined to ad, with such a stimulus to discontent. They lndi
theoaths of the Catholics against the principles of which they
were suspected, they had the condtid of Catholic Europe;
and what was singular, the declaration of the last free Pope,
But the Ccurecils of Cooetalice„ and the stereeehateet johea
Huss, was advanced as a pretence to supersede ail those tesi.
timonies. -It was avowed somewhere, that the Pope was in-
fallible ; but suppose he had asserted that Parliament was
omnipotent, that the King was immortal, or other epparently
fantastical, but practically beneficial doctrines; he sleauld pie-
ler the pradtice of the people at the present day as the best
foundation for judging of their condutt and opinions,
Had Buonaearte and the Pop! suppressed the liberty of
Spain, nay, had not the spirit by which that country was
animated, originated, with tlie.Catholic Clergy? Had they
not against Buonaparre. with the Pope in one hand, establish.
ed the Government in the hand of Ferdinand the Seventh, a
prisoner of littonaparte, in the face of thb l'ope's Nuncio ?
Could it be said that there was any necessary cohnedion be..
tweet this religion and arbitrary Government ? Ile wzt4:
aware that the unfortunate and infatuated larne.s the Second
was attached to Popery, but that was not the main fee.
ture Able!) formed the Revolution, it was not tile in.,
strument, it was rather the symbol ; which of
\the two
goddesses, Popery or Arbitrary Power, he loved best,
it was impossible tb say, but it. was probable, that he
• loved one for the sake of the other, and both for the site of
each. - referresl to the Bill of Rights as a corrohoratit
of those opinions, and -maintained that tests were the tern.. •
porary security necessary at the time; but the spirit of the
Bill of Rights was immutable, eternal, and universal, ap.
plicable to all times, arid adapted to all eircumaranees.e.
1 he present policy of GovernMent was to sacrifice that
which ought to he permanent, :in otter to prep imp that
which was only temporary. -He also quoted the authu-
rity of King William against tests, and repeated his ex.
hortation to go into inquiry. Petitions waere present..
ed, 'and a debate upon the negatur of- considering them
was considered a discussion of itte subject. He called
for a Cpnunittee, when they might examine the cause, and,
origin. and nature, and subsequent relaxation of those laws,.
,and when they woulat examine the futeleinental deistrine,
whether the Protestant eetaniishment- should he slipperted
by exclusion and civil- penal,e, or by that. chnity which
was consistent with the mildness of our religion, With die
charader of tettr country, and the parental spirit of this
great stafel
The Earl of LIVERPOOL. said, that though his Noble •
Friend had called upon their Lordships so tar to coentenence
the motion as to go into inquiry, at al l events, and in comm..
plation,of any result, he teit himself inclined to differ trona
..
him Must decidedly, and to
.maintain'that if, in consideration
of the present times, -of the state of-the public mind, and the-
constect of the Roman Catholics, they were of. opinion, that .
no benefit could follow from- genie into a Committee.,
they (eight not- to go into itoe The adoption of such.
a step, under suds circumstances, would • have a ten.
dente to delude, all ernes, and ending as it must end, in
that case, could not tail to inflame the Catholics still More.
If hi, Noble Friend's view was right, end the danger of re-
fusal so gteat as he had represented it, the best way Wcond
be to exstinguish the disabilities by a law at once, and put
an end to them altogether. He was-anxious that the distinct
e point at issue alloulst be known, and without entering into/
any detail asp the necessity of religious establishments, he
- would allow that every restraitit upottat lie religious or ;solid:"
cal sentiments of the people, was in it sel t an eail only to be
justified ny the necessity of the case. l'h:s brought the
question to a fair issue. As to the erineiple that rue tests"
were general, and therefore no evil, lie only understood it
in this weir, as an assertion that there was not 10 -the Sta.
tote Hoek ally direct principle whatever of exclusion,
but that the tests Operated in an iodised ma,mer. Then
came the question, whether they welt, necessary te the esta-
blish:nein s The first thing that presented itself in the in-
quiry, was the distinction between toe teats in Eegland and
Ireland. In England, it WaS necessary that the parson ap-
pointed to the oftiees aliould receive the Sacrament, after
the manner en use Chinch ot England.; hot in Ireland the
tests bore on Catholics exclusively. i t they were ,unfined
to tioCirii-es purely.i-oligious, there was no •reasoe why the
Catholic should be eiacesi nit a wore looting they any other
dissente s ; but time fact was, diet they related to. paints
with the - psnatical gover fluent of the country.
Ile al ludei to-the lath et Suprem:ey. It was an (see silo-
pie-of stet oration. -It did nut call Upon them to act now.
ledge the Kiire, as tired of the Crieren, hut to deny that any
Foreign 'V nece tor l'OtellLte siiruhcl possess that authority.
r a person Leo Li be toulati who k 4 evv the (inference between
a Plotet.t.tut antra Papist, stet informed that there was It
country in Eunipe veliten aimed et universal jai-belie-non, and
that the that Llattil halt :MIA:Xi:a, test
of aleiuration on the introduction to office, woeld not the pro.
posit toe as JustKasonaole ? As to tee
eneaeae erti rie .._.l unfi to. 1111 l /Irm vnw.r