The Sun.
London, England, 1840-02-25 00:00:00

EVENING EDITION.

Mr. SHAW—Grandfather, perhaps.
Mr. O'CONNELL—Grandfather l Why most of
them, I think, did not know their grandfather.--( Laughter. )
The Gallery was cleared for a division, but the House
did not diNide. On our re-admission to the Gallery, seve-
ral verbal amendments were agreed to, and the House di.
vided on the question that the clause, as amended, stand
part of the Bill. The numbers were—
Ayes lOO
Noes 53
Majority for the clause .... .....
Clauses 8,9, 10, 11, and 12 were then agreed to.
On the reading of the 12th clause,
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON said he had to move an
amendment for the purpose of leaving it optional to all bo-
roughs whether they should have corporations or not. If
any of the boroughs chose to have corporations they could
have them upon petitioning ; but there were many towns
which did not desire to be encumbered with them.
Amongst others, the very flourishing town of Clonmel had
petitioned the House against forcing a corporation on that
borough, which, they said, would only lead
to expense and ill will among the inhabitants.
Another town that was similarly circumstanced was Bel-
fast, and Galway refused to have a corporation ; and such
being the case, why, he would ask, were corporations to
be forced upon them ? The scourge of England had been
corporations, and now it was attemptedto inflict a similar
scourge upon Ireland, and therefore it As he proposed his
amendment, the effect of which would be to expunge the
clause from the Bill.
Col. PE RCEVA.L seconded the amendment.
Mr. LYNCH felt bound, after the allusion that had
been made by the Learned Sergeant to Galway, to say a
few words. Galway did not object to have a corporation,
but they objected to a restrictive boundary.
Colonel CONOLL Y supported the amendment of the
Hon. Member for Bandon. He thought the House ought to
allow the towns of Ireland to have the option of having
corporations or not. He could not see any.good in fixing
corporations upon towns that did not require it, or were
not fit to receive it.
Mr. PIG OT opposed the amendment.
Mr. SHAW would vote for the amendment if his Hon.
and Learned Friend divided the House upon it:
but he
should not vote against the third reading of the Bill if the
amendment was rejected.
Lord STANLEY said that he was anxious to say a
few words in explanation of the vote he was about
to give. He had always been of opinion that it
would be more for the advantage of Ireland, and
would tend more to the peace and tranquillity of
Ireland if the corporations of Ireland had been ge-
nerally and universally alsolished.—( Hear, hear.) That
opinion, instead of being weakened, had been strengthened
by what he had since observed of the diminished feeling in
favour of those corporations. —.( Hear, hear.) But the
question had been decided against him in successive Par-
liaments, and he, with some of his Hon. Friends, had ac-
quiesced in the view that had been taken by a majority of
that House, namely, that it was desirable to introduce into
Ireland corporations. It had been conceded that there
should be a schedule consisting of the great and principal
towns of Ireland, into which, not as a mat-
ter of choice, but as a matter of necessity, corporations
were to be introduced, and to which the principle of op-
tion should not be applied. That being the case, he felt
that he was not a free agent, and that he was precluded by
what had passed on former occasions, and in former Ses-
sions, front deviating from that concession. He therefore
could not acquiesce in the proposition of his Hon. and
Learned Friend, and if he divided the House, he would
feel himself hound, though very reluctantly, because he
thought the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had reason and
justice on his side, and that the House, by this Bill, were
going to confer a very doubtful boon on Ireland, to vote
against him...—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. BLAKE denied that the town of Galway was op-
posed to the Bill—it only objected to the boundary
marked out by the Bill, by which the franchise would be
considerably limited. He hoped the Hon. and Learned
Sergeant would withdraw his amendment.
After a few observations from Mr. SOMERS and Colonel
PURCEV AL,
Mr. O'CONNELL would not continue the bye battle
between the different towns, but he would make one re-
mark with regard to what had fallen FrOM the [lon. Mem-
her for (41way, namely, that if they had nut corporations
he did not ~a:c what they wanted with freemen. It had
been said, that thene iris very little demonstration of pub-
be feeling in favour of the measure in Ireland, but he found
that there were not less than 203 petitions with 119,000
Si,' natures. Now, to sho:v the difference between the manner
in wlrch petitions were got up for particular purposes in
England and Ireland, he found there were 5.34 petitions or
m4re than daubie that number, while the signatures were
only 32,000. He was surprised to find these corporations
so much undervalued now. It was said .7.t one time, that
nothing seas more material than these corporations, and I
t!.at if they were done away with, it would destroy the
Protestant religion—(a laugh)—that they wore the very
pillars of Protestantism. but he thought them rotten ones,
and they were now apparently thrown aside as of no
value.

Mr. Sergeant CURRY objected to the amendment on
the ground that as there had lately been a change in the
municipal rating of the cities of Ireland, it would be advis-
able to adopt the provisions of the Bill, inasmuch as the
81. rating now was equal to a 10/. rating heretofore.
Mr. SHAW offered a few words in explanation.
Mr. O'CONNELL thought that by the proposed
amendment a field would be opened for litigation, and that
it would press unfairly on Ireland. The Noble Lord the
Member for North Lancashire would strike the clauses out
of the Bill, and would leave them to chance hereafter.
He thought that Ireland should have as much as possible
the benefits of the laws and institutions of England, and
he objected to the delay proposed by the Noble Lord.
The Committee then divided, when the numbers were—.
ForFo r the
the
clauses
amendment
. . .. .
—45
Majority ...................
The clauses were then ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 33 and 34 were then agreed to without amend.
mezots, as was also clause 35.
A. desultory conversation, of which but little could be col-
lected in the gallery, took place upon clause 36, which
eventually was agreed to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses
37, 38, and 39 were then agreed to.
up to 56 were agreed to, with divers objections
by Mr.. SHAW, especially to clauses 43, 44, and 45.
Cla uses from 57 up to 65 were agreed to with a few
verbal t amendments.
Up on clause 66 being put,
Mr . Serjeant JACKSON proposed to add the following
provit ;o by way of amendment That every person enti-
tle& t o vote in the election of aldermen and town coun-
cill ors in any borough shall vote only for one half the
nur aber of the aldermen and town councillors to be
bete :ted for the ward or borough in respect of
whi soh such person shall be entitled to vote."
He .considered the proviso necessary, as in the boroughs
the ;greater portion of the property was in the hands of the
Protestants, and if the clause, as it was proposed, was car
vied, it would have the effect of throwing the elections into
the h ands of the Catholics. He should feel it to be his
duty :to take the sense of the Committee on this proviso.
Mr.. M. J. O'CONNELL opposed the proviso, which
he considered most ludicrous—indeed, so ludicrous was it,
thr a it had driven away all the leaders of the opposite party.
[l' he only Members on the front Opposition bench were
Mr . Sergeant Jackson, Mr. Shaw, and Mr. Litton.] The
Rik :ht Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, while
the Learned Sergeant was speaking, had shaken his head in
a w ay not to be mistaken—( Hear, hear, and laughter)—
and the Noble Lord, the Member for North Lancashire,
had ri .fused to march through Coventry with the Learned
Sergi .ant on this occasion.—( Laughter.) He would ask
the L earned Gentlemen how his proviso was to be carried
into .4 peration, in cases where there was to be only one
Me xi ber elected, which was the ease in several wards in
Du! )1 in and other places.
efter a few observations from Col. PERCIVAL, Mr.
Sergeant JACKSON, Mr. ROACHE, and Mr. BaLLaw,
Ir. O'CONNELL said any arrangement such as that
prof nosed by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would fail
in i a object. The qualification would always be retained
by t lae parties who possessed sufficient property, and if the
Ron u to Catholics had a majority in any locality they
wouth I, of course, elect persons of that persuasion.
La *d JOHN RUSSELL was glad to hear the Hon.
and t ;anent Member for Sligo, talk of honest and straight-
forwe rd Roman CatholiCs, and when they were so, he did
not va :e why they should not be elected as well as Protes-
tan'a. The intention of the Bill was that the majority
oho ul d elect whatever that party was—such was the cage
in all elections in that country, and he did not wish to
has it a different system established in Ireland, more es-
pet ially one which was calculated to perpetuate invidious
di,' inctions.—( Hear, hear.)
t 1;lolonel PEKCEVAL was glad the Noble Lord had
not ived his remark. He did believe there were many, very
mat ty , honest and straightforward Roman Catholics, but
they • were not free agents, they were in the hands of the
priest 3 and others.—(oh, oh.)
Tb e Committee then divided, when there appeared—
For the proviso
Against it
Majority
Cl; .uses to 95 inclusive were then agreed to.
tz . SHAW proposed to substitute the words " unless
cof illness or other reasonable cause." He objected
to iv: Town Council having the power of granting leave
of atisnce for two months to the Lord Mayor. They
;',2c elect to that office the Hon. Member Er Dublin,
o might think it sufficient ground for absence that be
wa ; a ttenciing his duties in Parliament.

4r . O'C &NNE LL—The case is not in point. I could
go , er once a month with my Recorder.—( Laughter. )
101 d NIORPETH said that that the Town Council
being responsible to the rate-payers, the matter might be
safely left in their hands.
C . P ERCE VAL thought there ought to be some
chef b on the Town Councils.
A G . PICOT said the moment the Council became a
tax a g body it became a popular body.
Can clause was then agreed to.
.14auses 101, 102, and 103 were also agreed to.
'On clause 104 being proposed,
Mr, LITTON proposed to add Coroners to the list of
off sera entitled to compensation, or to retain the offices
for • life.

Mier a few words from Mr. BLAKE in explanation,
The Committee divided, when the numbers were—
Fur the clause
Against it...

Majority
The clause (as also clause 14) was then ordered to stand
part of the Bill.
On clause 15 being read, which authorised the Crown
to grant charters to towns petitioning for them.
Mr. SHAW moved an amendment, to the effect that
the petition should be signed by the majority of those per-
sons who would be qualified to be burgesses in respect of

&ftcr a few words from Mr. PIGOT, the clause was
ag to.

C: auses up to 111 were agreed to without any amend-
mc s.

V. Thal amendments were proposed by Mr. PIGOT in
&Am es 112 and 113, which were agreed to.
C auses 114, 115, and 116, were then agreed to.
C ause 117 was agreed to, with amendments.
C lausc 118 to clause 168, inclusively, were then
ag r :ed to.
Clause 169, after a few observations from Mr. Slaw
a; IQI Lord MORPETEI, was also agreed to, 'as were many
o titers, with desultory discussions.
Upon the 208th clause,

rating.
The clause as amended was agreed to.
Clauses 16 to 22 were then agreed to after a few verbal
amendments.
On clause 23 being proposed,
Mr, SHAW moved to strike out the words, " For the
purpose of Grand Jury presentments."
Mr. LYNCH supported the original clause.
Lord MORPETH thought the amendment might be a
fair subject for distinct legislation, but that the clause at
present had better remain unaltered.
Mr. PIG OT thought it would be unfair to the inhabit-
ants of the town to restrict the clause in the manner pro-
posed.
Sergeant JACKSON moved the omission of the clause
and the substitution of the following :—" And be it enacted
that for the purposes of this Act all places locally
situate or included within the boundaries of any borough
or of any ward thereof, as defined under this Act,
shall be deemed and taken to be a part or parts of such
borough or of such ward thereof respectively, and in thos .
boroughs which are counties of themselves, shall be part of
such county, and of none other, and in every case in which
the meets and bounds of any borough or county under the
provisions of this Act, shall not include any place or pre-
cinct which, before the passing of this Act, was part of
such borough or county, such place or precinct shall
thenceforward be taken to be part of the county wherein
such place or precinct is situated, or with which it has the
longest common boundary. Provided nevertheless, that
if any such place or precinct shall have been I:able, before TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN.
the passing of this Act, to contribute to any rate Made for Stn—A petition from the county of Warwick, against
the purpose of satisfying any lawful debt to which the ' a, alteration in the Corn-laws, having been forwarded to
rate-payers of such borough or county were liable to con- nation for presentation to either House of Parliament,
tribute before the passing of this Act, and in case any differ- is d that petition purporting to represent the opinions and
ence shall arise concerning the proportion of such debt, wt st es of the agricultural population of the county, per-
which ought therefore to be paid and contributed in re- ha ps you will allow me to make a few remarks on the man-
spect of such place or precinct, it shall be lawful for ne, -1 a which it has been got up, and on the amount of
the Chief Justice of her Majesty's Court of Queen's sig es tures which it contained.
Bench in Dublin, in the case of the county of Dublin, ',ft e petition, I believe, originated with the Agricultural
and the county of the city of Dublin, and in the case of Assisi :Wien, and sheets for signatures were forwarded to
any other county, for the senior Justice of Assize for the the n lost influential proprietors and occupiers of land in
county of which such place or precinct shall thencefor- each parish, and Warwickshire (with the exception of the
ward be taken to be part on his circuit, on the appli_ town sof Birmingham and Coventry) being almost exclu-
sivel y agricultural, it might naturally be supposed the sig-
cation of the Council of such borough, or of the chair-
man of a public meeting of the rate-payers of such nate res would be very numerous. Now, what is the fact?
place or precinct, to appoint, by writing under his hand, S lir ply that the petition does not contain the signatures of
*
ate nth or even a twentieth part of the agricultural popula-
arbitratea barrister not having any interest in the question, to
ti or i, although in many instances something more than per-
his hand and seal, to assess the proportion, if any, a
between the parties, and oy his award, under
Trion has been employed by the farmers, to induce their
la
of such debt which ought therefore to be paid and I 31 ,curers to !support a system, which, to almost a man,
, contributed in respect of such place or precinct ; and l ii ey execrate and abhor.
In one parish entirely confined to agriculture, only four
such arbitrator shall also assess the costs of the arbitra-
tion, and shall direct by whom and in what proportion, and sag natures could be obtained, and in an adjoining one, con-
outt ail ling many hundred inhabitants, not more than twenty.
of what fund, the same shall be paid ; and such rate as
1.,n short, I have not the slightest hesitation in saying that aforesaid shall continue to be levied by warrant of the
council of such borough, and paid by such place or pre-
chte entire labouring population are not only opposed to, but
cinct, as if this Act had not passed, until such proportion
shall have been fully paid and satisfied to the treasurer of det ermined to effect the repeal of laws at once iniquitous
ant l oppressive. The landlords are the only per-
the borough, and no longer; provided nevertheless, tha'; 3011 3 who really oppose the repeal of these laws,
every county gaol, house of correction, or lunatic asylu ,n
court of justice, which at the time of the passing of this' ant I their opposition being entirely selfish and inter-
or
Act is taken to
still for all such purposes be taken to be within such county, • their unnatural and extravagantly high war rents,
1 Ji Ilia ought, and must, sooner or later be reduced.
anything herein. contained to the contrary notwithstanding,
o i with that redaction I have no doubt the repeal would
The clause
sessiodeprive the extensive dis- -
as it now stood would • •
tricts it affected of Quarter' rove a great benefit to the farmers, giving the impetus
it must do, to trade and commerce, without which they
Mr, PIG OT opposed the amenndsrisent, which was with - world find agriculture, though supported by a legion of
drawn.
On clause 24 being proposed, protective duties, a very unprofitable occupation. Were
Mr. LITTON proposed,t,hoeivcrils,ertion of the words " a we taxing a foreigner, or an enemy, it might
be some consolation, but where is the policy of a tax paid
criminal" after the word Ad
so as to include the Court of Quoaor'ete.nar rseefessrieonncse. to Com a ,3, exf ;lusively out of our own pockets? Again, it is asserted
towns,
expedien tto the aif the Corn-laws were repealed, a great breadth of
Mr. PIG 0 T said that it had
let id would be thrown out of cultivation, which I consider
retain the civil jurisdiction in the
of the criminal jurisdiction would be agasi,nsistutthtehe eater,* „ Ta \ e.• most ridiculous fallacy, as it is well known we cannot
ciple of the Bill, whole pr i ik. l nt iw grow a sufficient quantity of wheat for home consump-
Mr. SHA W thought the wording of the clause was p IT . twit,)pne;rieanndwit han
this should m
mostostn
certainlyesseti
al
titularly obscure. He was of opinion that it would be
b?Aide ;ee an increased demand forand it is equally notorious that good
ter to retain neither jurisdiction. et-
English wheat would always be preferred, and
The clause was then agreed to.
(except, perhaps,
'command a higher price than any foreign grain
Clauses up to 31 were then areed to.
On clause 32, as to the
qualification of burge ase, a very small quantity) would. I will say nothing of
being put,
the possibility Danzic, of which we could obtain but
Mr. SHAW proposed that the qualification should h, wheat, to other a• g
. of adapting land calculated for bearing
r, d,' r:- vious to any one at-
-10/. ascertained by rating in all boroughs to be incorrlicultural purposes, as it must be ob-
a.l acquainted with the subject. Many
ted, and also to substitute twelve for six months occupy tio—i-, more. arguments..m.ight be adduced against these unjust,
with reference to enrolmcut. He also proposed to ore it cruel, and impolitic laws, but I will not further trespass
aft, r on your valuable time. Should you deem these facts and
the 33d clause, as to the qualification of burgesses
mea. remarks worth your comment or notice, they are fully at
three years, so as to make the present a permanent
your service, to make what use of them you may think
sure ;he would also propose to omit the whole of the 34d1
I am, Sir, Yours respectfully,
clause.
ciroper.
Lord MORPETH did not know which amendmer, t the Feb. 19, 1840.
A FARMER.
Ri3lahrt. Hon.siA and Learned Gentleman meant first to p• ,:; aose. proposed to introduce his amen ".
the 32d clause, and to omit altogether clausesdm,
as
they Lord MORPETH objected to theseal terat ••3r
A
made the qualification more stringent i -
‘ongalatwa.e3au4s.e
andpof
Or poorer country, than it was either innglar
considering the large concessions alr A Iseria'
cot %ld, the
.Arei •
,
not think they could in fairness t„ aaily made, lis did
further. exi,,t L.,. on t'j CO iccae
Mr. O'CONNELL obcted t ah„, ~
sen different to that of the Learned G
- 's:ouusled be pr, r '°:
7:1
aidltleraan ;he th tvii A
das disclaim: c:
.7
th. e qualification in Ireland and Enala
similar, and he begged to he unde;sto;
other sort of qualification, and rot
iMr. SMITH O'BRIEN P roctstitnfgd aaggaainhilit. 3-
any
being legislated for in a differepnt sepipt to the ot.h
of the empire. The spirit of conciliation
side of the House had been met byal°supeirii'tliobfiteed merit on the other.
Lord STANLEY could not see that by • ..
101. qualification, they were doing any inies-ti c "'sit'
or legislating for Leland in a different 'spiriteto
pat tii of the empire.

Mr. SHAW and Mr. LITTON objected that there had
eon appointments to office in some corporations within
t he last four years, of which it would be unjust to deprive
• he present officers without compensation.
Mr. PIGOT said that persons who took office in that
eriod had sufficient notice that they would not be entitled
t A compensation upon the abolition of their offices.
A fter a short conversation across the table, _ _

ord MORPETH said, that although he would not
%ins, ml to a general measure for giving compensation to
all p, arsons affected by the clause, he would be disposed to
consider any case of peculiar hardship, which was brought
befor e him.

Ti .e clause was then agreed to.
Cl ause 209 was streck out.
Cl auses up to 213 were then agreed to.
TI ie CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and asked
lof eve: to sit again this day.
The House having resumed, the other Orders of the
D ty were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at
T Ao o'Clock.

CORN-LAWS.

COROURG.
of the Duke de
THE PRINCESS VICTORIA
~ The Princess Victoria, the intended 14r1.)
Nemours, was the object of universal attraction
ofSerene High-
, says R
sels letter, " on her visit to our theatre
a white
a —rus-
ness is very handsome, of fair complexion,. and er
cheerful countenance. She was dressed with a Pleasing and
and wore for ornament on her head only sTplicity,
A meeting of those friendly to the recent pro-
ceedings of the Church of Scotland was to be held yesterday in
Edinburgh, to call the attention of Government to the recent-
proceedings of the Court of Session in the Strathbogiec.
with a view to an immediate settlement of the question agi.."
tating the Scotch Church.
LONGEVITY.—A beggar, named Hurley, died
.at ilillestown, near Cloonen, on Sunday last, at the patriarchal
:and ce.serable age of 113 years ; he could particularize the ch.-
curastavce of, and the effects caused by, the memorable frostof
the year 1739-40 ; he retained his mental
on►
faculties perfect until
the last hoar of his existence. Ile was the foregoing ay
° .!,usily employed in his eleemosynary career. •
The Plymouth Anti-Corn-law Petition was sent
off by yesterday's morning mail. It contains 4,160 signatures,
and measures 174 yari!s in length.

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