The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-30 00:00:00

NEW MEMBER.

Mr. MUNDY took the oaths and his scat for Derby-
shire. The Hon. Member was introduced by Mr. Packe
and Mr. Fuller.

THIRD READINGS.
The following Bills were read a third time :—Notting-
ham Gas ; Roxburghshire and Berwickshire Roads
Amendment; Waldy's Divorce.

PETITIONS.
Mr. WALTER presented a petition from Nottingham
praying for an alteration in the law of settlement.
Mr. DISRAELI presented a petition from Nova
Scotia signed by six nundred persons, stating, that the
honour of the Crown had been violated by the Secretary
for the Colonies, in scrutinizing the removal of certain
officers and magistrates by the Colonial Legislature, and
praying that such a constitution might be granted to the
colony as would give to the people a just control over the
management of public affairs.
Mr. DUNCAN presented a petition from several
places in Scotland against the Registration Bill for
Scotland.

Mr. BROTHERTON presented a petition from the
Primitive Methodists of Salford in favour of international
arbitration.

Mr. BOUVERIE presented several petitions praying
for the liberation of Mr. Shore.
Mr. COWAN presented a petition from the Edin-
burgh Financial Reform Association praying for a re-
duction in the national expenditure ; also, a petition
from the county of Haddington in favour of interna-
tional arbitration ; also, a petition from the paper
manufacturers of Edinburgh praying for the abolition
of the duty upon paper; and a petition from a Baptist
congregation in Edinburgh in favour of the Affirmation
Bill.

Mr. S. CRAWFORD presented a petition from Ire-
land in favour of tenant-right; also one from the Wes-
leyan Methodists of Rochdale, in favour of a measure to
probtbit trading in seduction.
Sir E. BUXTON presented a petition in favour of the
measure to allow clergymen to secede from the Church.
Mr. BRIGHT presented a petition to the same effect;
also three petitions in favour of international arbitration.
Lord RENDLESHAM presented a petition from
Norfolk, praying for the repeal of the malt-tax.
Mr. G. THOMPSON presented a petition from
Southwark in favour of international arbitration.
Mr. MULLINGS presented a petition praying for the
abolition of parochial settlements and assessments, and
for the establishment of a national poor-rate upon all de-
scriptions of realised property.
CONFINEMENT FOR CONTEMPT OF COURT.
Mr. HUME moved for a return of persons who are at
present confined for contempt of court in any of her Ma-
jesty's gaols in Great Britain and Ireland, under process
issuing out of all courts, civil and ecclesiastical; stating
the time at which, and by what court, each person was
committed, and the cause of committal. Also, return of
all persons who were in confinement for contempt of
court in March, 1839, and of all persons
who have been imprisoned for contempt of court
in those gaols in each year since 1839; stating severally
the names, the cause or grounds of imprisonment, the
amount of debts or costs for which imprisoned, and the
date of discharge (in continuation of Parliamentary
Paper, No. 278, of Session 1839).—Agreed to.
ARBITRATION.
Mr. LABOUCHERE presented a petition in favour
of international arbitration.
Mr. SCHOLEFIELD presented a petition from a
congregation of Protestants at Birmingham to the same
effect.
The How. MEMBER also presented a petition, praying
for the superannuation of poor-law officers.
ABOLITION OF FLOGGING IN THE NAVY.
Mr. HUME presented a petition from a person in
the navy against the punishment of flogging.
POLICIES OF ASSURANCE BILL.
On the motion of Mr. FAGAN, the following Com-
mittee was appointed:—Mr. William Fagan, Mr. At-
torney-General, Mr. Mackinnon, Mr. Roundel' Palmer,
Mr. lleadlaw Mr. Milner lilt/Sou, DM Wood, Sir H.
Willoughby, 'Sir Edward North Buxton, Mr. Napier,
Mr. Coles, Sir William Verner, Mr. Spooner, Mr.
O'Flaherty, and Mr. Mullings.
POOR-LAW.
Mr. WODEHOUSE gave notice that on an early day
after Easter he should call the attention of the House to
the establishment charges under the poor-law, with the
view of their being further provided for out of the Con-
solidated Fund.

VAGRANCY.
Mr. CAYLEY presented petitions from Market
Drayton and from the board of guardians of Stafford
and of Chester, complaining of the increase of vagrancy
and the high amount to which the rate-payers were
charged for its relief; also a petition from the West
Riding of Yorkshire, complaining of agricultural dis-
tress and the low price of agricultural labour.
INTERNATIONAL ARBITRATION.
Mr. J. WILLIAMS presented petitions from various
places in Cardiganshire, in favour of referring interna-
tional disputes to arbitration.
IMPORTATION OF. WORKS OF ART.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL gave notice of his intention to
ask the Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs,
on Friday or Monday, what restrictions are imposed on
the importation into this country of works of art pur-
chased in Italy.
Mr. HUTT asked the President of the Board of
Trade whether any law existed in this country or any
power vested in the Government which would prevent
the delivery into this country of works of art purchased
in Italy?
Mr. LABOUCHERE apprehended that there was no
law of trade that prevented works of art coming into
the country.
PUBLIC HEALTH IN SCOTLAND.
Sir GEORGE GREY gave notice of his intention to
introduce a Bill on an early day to promote the public
health in Scotland.

IRELAND.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL in rising to move that this
House will, upon —, resolve itself into a Committee,
to consider of the condition of Ireland, and the necessity
of changing the policy that has been hitherto pursued
towards that country, and adopting such measures as
shall go to the root of the evils of which she complains,
said that his only object in placing that motion upon the
paper was to obtain an expression of the intentions
of the Right Hon. Gentleman who had the other night
mooted a question with regard to Ireland. There seemed
to be some idea throughout the country that there had
been great mistakes made in the mode of legislating for
Ireland, and that it was likely that all the small, petty,
and what ho could not help considering the ineffective
measures of Government, would only end in disappoint-
ment and disadvantage, and that it was necessary that
some large and comprehensive measure should be intro-
duced instead. The proposition broached by the Right
Honourable Baronet the Member for Tamworth had ex-
cited a deep and very general and anxious consideration
in Irelan,i. That was a large and a comprehensive mea-
sure, and believing, as he himself did, that comprehensive
measures could alone benefit that country, he was anxious
to obtain the precise opinions of the Right Hon. Gentle.
men as to the measure which he seemed desirous
of laying before the House. He was also
equally anxious to know the details of the proposition
which it was intended to submit by the Hon . Member
for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli.) That Hon. Gen-
tleman had stated that in the plan which he had laid out
he designed to confer large benefits on Ireland. For
any such advantage the Irish Members would be grate-
ful, and he could say that the Irish Members would be
ready to give their support to any one who would ho-
nestly take the welfare of Ireland in hand. Yet he felt
reluctant to press his motion upon the House, but was
earnestly desirous of getting the views of her Ma-
jesty's Ministers.—(Hear, hear.) He begged, how-
ever, to postpone his motion, in the hope that the
measures of the Government would render it unneces-
sary.---(Hear.)
IRISH SAVINGS BANKS.
Mr. REYNOLDS, in rising to move for a Select
Committee to inquire into and report upon the circum-
stances connected with the failure of the St. Peter's
Parish Savings Bank, in Cuffe-street, Dublin, and into
any security or liability that may exist for the
satisfaction of the losses thereby occasioned, said,
last year he placed a similar notice upon the table
of the House, but he withdrew it from time to time at
the request of the Right Hon. Baronet the Chancellor of
the Exchequer. In the month of July, however, a Se-
lect Committee was appointed to inquire and report
upon savings' banks; that Committee sat nine days and
came to the following report:—" Your Committee have
proceeded with the inquiry intrusted to them by the
House, but owing to the late period of the session, they
find themselves unable to bring it to a satisfactory con-
clusion; they are of opinion that it is desirable that
further inquiry should take place either during the
recess or in the next session of Parliament into the
existing system of savings banks. They are of opinion
that it is expedient that a Bill should be intro-
duced in the present session of Parliament
for regulating the liabilities of the trusteess of savings
banks." Now, he begged to state, that, in accordance
with that report, a Bill was introduced and passed both
Houses of Parliament, and was now the law of the land.
That Bill did not alter the old law relative to
the government of savings banks in any very
material particular. It conferred the power upon the
local trustees of the various saving banks to appoint
auditors, and to enable the trustees themselves to come
into the management of the bank at the limited liability

or 4,6001. Now he begged to famied the 11011 AP that the
savings banks of Great Britain and Ireland have been
long established, and the preambles of the Bill or Bill
under which they were established
fei were ies.taate ee the perpose of accumu
lating the savings of the industrious classes—a
very laudable and praiseworthy object, but in the
case he should have the honour to submit to the
House, he should be able to prove that the intention
of the Legislature had not been carried out.
The facts connected with the Cuffe-street
Savings' Bank would be found to be un-
paralleled in the history of banking transactions.
He might have gone into the statement he was now
about, to make last year, were it not that he apprehended
that the statement of the facts if they had Obtained cir-
culation through the press would have produced a panic,
and might have injured the parties he was anxious to serve.
The evidence, however, taken before the Committee had
since been published in the Times and Chronicle, and he
was therefore now released from any difficulty or deli-
cacy in the matter, because nothing he could say would
add to the fund of information already before the public.
Now let him direct attention to the Cuffe-street Savings'
Bank. It was established in 1818, and the usual com-
plement of trustees, managers, and actuaries were ap-
pointed. They opened, under the authority of an
Act of Parliament, an account with the Com-
missioners for the Reduction of the National Debt,
and the bank continued to receive deposits .from the
public, and exhibited all the various signs of inward
prosperity, from that period of 1818 until that of 1831.
On one occasion the dep. sits exceeded 300,0001., while
they were seldom under 200,0001. In February of the
year 1831 the officer called the actuary absconded,
and it was found that he had been guilty of malversation
of the money of the Bank; a full statement of the de-
linquencies and of the frauds he had committed
were transmitted to the Commissioners for the
Reduction of the National Debt in London,
and that central authority deputed a gentleman
who had become notorious not only in Eng-
land but in Ireland, namely, Mr. Tidd Pratt, to visit the
Cuffe-street Savings' bank in order to inquire into and
report upon the frauds, and to decide upon the best
course to be adopted for the interest of the depositors.
'The trustees of that day were different to the trustees
of 1847, and were all solvent and respectable individuals.
Mr. Tidd Pratt entered upon an investigation of the
affairs of the bank, and found a deficit of 8,0001., which
had been received by the actuary and not accounted for.
Having tinkered up the affairs in the best way be could,
he returned and informed the then Chancellor of the Ex..
chequer. The trustees wished to wind up the bank, to
divide the assets pro rata among the depositors, and to
clean their hands of the whole matter, but Mr. Tidd
Pratt told them as they had good credit to keep
it open, and depend upon making up the deficit by the
surplus profits. From a statement of the bank accounts
it appeared that, in 1832, the profits over and above the
expenses amounted to 4,4764 10s. 5d., but in the follow-
ing year, in consequence of fraud and peculation, there
was a deficiency of 3,671/. 12s. 3d., and from
that year it gradually increased until 1847, when
the deficiency amounted to nearly 33,000/. From
1832 to 1847 the Chancellors of the Exchequer
were cognizant of the fact that the bank in Cuffe-street
was insolvent, and could not pay 10s. in the pound, and
yet they allowed the poor hard-working mechanics of
Dublin, who denied themselves the necessaries of life in
order that they might save something from their earnings,
to be defrauded of their earrings.—(Hear.) A com-
mittee sat in Dublin for some days, the depositors were
called before them, when it appeared that the sum of
32,000/. was due to them, which was subsequently
swelled on inquiry to 48,0004; and, in fact, 50,0001.
was due to 1,664 persons from the two trustees
whose securities would not be taken in any bank in
Ireland for 1,0004 All the money placed to the credit
of the bank in the Bank of Ireland was but 821. He
complained that Mr. Pratt was a flippant individual,
and had calumniated the people of Ireland by
saying in a letter to the Treasury from Tralee
that he regretted many of the depositors had placed
money in that bank in order to avoid the payment of
their rents, and that many were subsisting upon charity
and receiving out-door relief, and that they had been
guilty of perjury and of subornation of perjury in order
to substantiate their claims. Mr. Tidd Pratt had said he
xamined many of the depositors upon oath, and Mr.
Tidd Pratt charged them with subornation of perjury,
and when he was asked what subornation of perjury
meant he could not translate the offensive term.—
(Laughter.) Now he (Mr. Reynolds) called that whole-
sale calumny. Let him then call attention to the
Cuffe-street depositors. He knew Mr. Tidd Pratt
had been trying his hand at calumniating them too.
He should read for the information of the House the
classes of persons to whom that money was due, and
then the House would say whether they ought
to be so calumniated. The number of depositors
in the St. Peter's Savings' Bank, Cuffe-
street, Dublin, under 11, was 59 ; under
21., 71; under 31., 56; under 41., 72; under 51., 92; under
101., 193; under 151, 175; under 204, 131; under 251,
125; under 301., 82; under 401., 143; under 504, 190;
under 601., 62; under 70/., 38; under 801., 27; under 901,,
24; under 1004, 21; under 1101, 24; under 1201., 16; un-
der 130/. 17; under 140/., 11; under 1504, 8; under 1604,
11 ; under 170 L, 3 ; under 180/., 10 ; under 1904, 7 ;
under 1951. 4 ; under 2001., 4 ; and under 237/. and
2804, I—making the total depositors in the Cuffe-
street Savings' Bank, whose deposits were under
1504, 1,617 ; and, with those that varied from
150/. to 2001., making a grand total of 1,664.
The average sum for each depositor was as close as pos-
sible 271_ Thee the 11e... —„„1,1 1-.‘ able
to estimate the wide-spread misery which the failure of
Cuffs-street bank had occasioned. He was not anxious
to harrow up the feelings of the Members of that House,
but he was bound to say that the scenes of human
misery which he had witnessed within the last
eighteen months in the city of Dublin, and which
had grown out of the failure of that bank, were,
he believed, unparalleled in the history of human
suffering.—(Hear.) He knew an industrious bookseller
who had contrived by great self-denial to save a little
money, and a man with a wife and seven children.
That poor man had lodged about 1501. in that
bank, which was his entire all. His anxiety
of mind, consequent upon the failure of the
bank, brought on brain fever, which ultimately
turned to typhus, and he died, leaving his wifo and seven
children penniless, and five of those children were now
ill of typhus.—(Bear, hear.) He knew, too, of some
cases of suicide which had occurred from the same cause.
Here, then, were 1,664 persons practically working out
the principle of self-reliance by accumulating
50,0001., and intrusting it to a bank which
was believed to afford Government security.
A case of gross fraud had been practised, but the trus-
tees had denied their liability, and a mandamus
had been sued for and denied. Another man-
damus had been sued for, which it was in-
tended should either establish or entirely disprove
the liability of the trustees of savings' banks.—
(Hear, hear.) He begged the particular attention
of the Right Honourable Baronet the Chancellor of
the Exchequer to this part of the result of those
inquiries. The decision of the Court was that they had
no power whatever to interlere. The arrangements lay
between the trustees and the Commissioners of the
National Debt, and under the Act of 1844 there
seemed to be no power to interfere. A verdict
which had just been given at Tralee seemed to
confirm this decision. There was no power to institute
an investigation into the books, and the only persons
entitled to make any investigations were the Commis-
sioners of the National Debt, and even so far as they were
concerned, it must be a matter of private arrangement
between them and the trustees of the particular bank to
which any reference was made. In order to render any
trustees liable it was necessary, under the Act of
1844, that they should give their consent in writing to
become responsible. A question on this point had
been submitted to Mr. Tidd Pratt upon this subject, in
which it was stated that out of the 50,0001. for which
the bank had originally been indebted, the amount
of the debt had been reduced to 37,000/. since
1844.--(Hear.) (The Honourable Gentleman then read
various extracts from a correspondence between Mr.
Egam and the official, of the Commissioners for the
National Debt, showing in the first place that the ori-
ginal debt would, if proper care had been taken of the
assets, have been reduced to as low as 27,722/., and in
which a request was made to send a professional accoun-
tant down to investigate the circumstances, and to un-
ravel the several details, but that assistance was refused.)
It was in evidence that the trustees had neglected to put
their balance-sheets in the bank in Dublin, in order that
the depositors should not know that they had been
robbed; and for that neglect the Commissioners for
the Reduction of the National Debt were responsible,
By the Parliamentary return it appeared that there were
1,364 depositors in this very bank, while the total
number of depositors in Dublin exceeded 20,000.--
(Hear, hear.) He would not speak of this in any
angry tone, but he was desirous of improv-
ing the law in order that the savings' banks
might be what they were intended fur, namely, a place
for the safe keeping of the earnings of the poor, which
they were not now.—(Hear, hear.) He held in his
hand a paper, by which it appeared that in all
Ireland the number of depositors in 1844 was
91,243 whose aggregate gainings amounted to 1,749,0174
but if they had a return for the present year, so great
had been the doubt created in the public mind as
to these banks by the Cuffe-street disclosures, he
very touch feared the figures would be greatly reduced.
By the same paper it appeared that the number of de-
positors in England and Scotland on the 30th of No-
vember, 1844, was 1,120,047, who had lodged with the
Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt
no less a sum than 31,275,6364—(Hear, hear.) Now,
the House baying indulged him so long, for which
he felt more than thankful, and for which be felt it was
hardly necessary for him to offer any apology, as the
subject was one of great importance, he would just
recapitulate the facts connected with this bank. It was
established in 1818, continued prosperous until 1831, but
it was insolvent from that period until 1844, as the return
of the trustees to the Commissioners of the National Debt
showed that at the first there was a deficiency 0f3,:7004
and in 1847 of upwards of 32,0001., and yet the Com-
missioners had not the courage to put a stop to the pro-
ceedings of the managers. The Hon. Member concluded
by imploring the House to agree to the appointment of a
Committee.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. NAPIER seconded the motion, and said he could
hardly think, after the able and lucid statement of
The Honourable Member for Dublin, that there could
be any reasonable doubt whatever that this was a
fit case for a full and searching inquiry be-
fore a Committee of the House. The whole
facts had been so fully and correctly stated, that he
was spared the necessity of entering into any details,
but he wished to refer to one matter, viz., that the
proceedings which were pending in the Queen s
Bench against the trustees would not stand in
the way of an investigation, and he was authorised to
state, on the part of the trustees, that they were desirous
of appearing before the Committee to give any evidence

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fore dents d his right to demand the inspection of the
books. In a word, the sole and only point of difference
between the trustees and Me. Tidd Pratt, was, that he-
claimed the right of settling the matter; whereas the 7th
and Bth Victoria removed all liability from the shoulders
of the trustees. He looked upon this subject as well
worthy of the attention of the House, as he considered
it a very great and pressing hardship, that poor servants
and other industrious persons, should be so flagitiously
deprived of their hard-earned deposits, through the neg-
ligence and dishonesty of others, and hoped that the
motion of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Reynolds) would be ac-
ceded to. He was empowered, on the part of the trus-
tet s, to say that they courted an inquiry, and were una-
nimously prepared to attend a Select Committee, with
the hope that this matter would be sifted to the bottom.
He did not think that the Exchequer should be held re-
sponsible, but whatever party might be proved to be
morally responsible, that party should make good the
losses incurred by the depositors. At the time that Mr.
Tidd Pratt went to Dublin, there was no power what-
ever in the barrister, and when there existed such doubt
on the matter, and the depositors were not paid, he
thought that the Commissioners of the National Debt
should have called for the accounts, and that thosebanks
should have been closed. On the whole, he thought that
it was due to the trustees that the matter should be in-
vestigated.
Mr. H. HERBERT said it was with much diffidence
that he rose to propose his amendment, for the case that
he had to support wad equally pressing on his consti-
tuents as that of the Hon. Member for Dublin. He
hoped that the House would grant that the inquiry
might be extented to the Tralee and Killarney Savings
Banks, and also to the Aucbterarder Savings Bank in
Scotland, for a geatleman in that country had written to
him, requesting him to propose the extension of the in-
quiry to that bank also. In April last there was a defi-
ciency of 34,000/. in the Tralee Bank, the actuary of
which had been arrested and sentenced to transporta-
tion, and a few days afterwards the actuary of
the,Killarney Bank went to America, leaving claims to
the amount of 36,0001.; but he should 'add that of that
sum 16,0001. had been afterwards awarded to the depo-
sitors. Before the year 1844 there was no doubt what-
ever, of the liability of the trustees. He did not mean
to complain of the Act 7 and 8 Victoria, only as far as
that there was no system of inspection, or machinery by
which that law could be carried out. He had also to
complain that accounts had been frequently sent from
those banks to the National Debt Office with the most
glaring mistakes on the face of them, and at that time
no notice whatever had been taken of them, for at that
time a newspaper had been sent to him containing those
accounts, and that it was impossible for them to escape
detection, so plain and manifest as they were. He
would particularly remark two cases of this descrip-
tion, one an error of 516/. and another of 4272, which
have been observed by the officials in the National Debt
Office, but which, he regretted to say, had been to-
tally neglected.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member
stated three cases in which, the parties being brothers,
the same sum was deposited by each in the bank at
Tralee, on the same day, and at the same hour, and yet
Mr. Tidd Pratt had set down a different award in each
case. The depositors subsequent to 1843 had been de-
prived of their fair rights, and that, too, by a Govern-
ment officer, sent down to adjudicate upon these mat-
ters. He did say that, if ever a case was made out
calling for Government interference it was this. The
Government were bound to pay off these deficiencies, on
the same principle as was stated in Francis's " History
of the Bank of England," the Government had paid off
262,0001. out of the 377,000/. of fraudulent Exchequer..
bills, that being the amount iu circulation at the time
of the discovery of the fraud. That payment was made
by the Government simply because they felt the debt
to be a just one. But he could bring an authority
who went down to the very town of which he was
speaking, Traleee. By an extract from a notification
issued by the staff-officer of the district, who paid the
pensions, it appeared that that officer was authorised by
the Government to offer Government security for the
return of all deposits. That, too, was in 1843, and ap-
plied precisely to the case they were discussing. And
yet his constituents had been proclaimed all over the
world as fraudulent and dishonourable, and calumniated
in every possible way, after being robbed and plundered.
Under these circumstances he trusted that the House
would deem this a case peculiarly calling for its sym-
pathy and its assisfauce.
Mr. FAGAN seconded the amendment, mid said
that if the Government were not bound in fact or in
law to repay their money, he thought the House
would be of opinion that they were at least
morally bound to do so. But he thought there
were sufficient grounds in the very facts of the
case upon which to hold that compensation should be
made. First. These Acts of Parliament were instituted
for the safe keeping of the savings of the industrious
poor, and it was the duty of the Government to see that
the good intentions of the Legislature, in this respect,
were carried out. Secondly, every depositor of money in
these banks was persuaded that he had the security of
the Government for the return of his deposits. This had
been stated upon ample authority three times in the
course of the debate, and the duty of the Government,
arising out of that circumstance, was greatly added to by
the fact that the Government had used 28,000,0001. of
the savings accumulated by these poor persons, upon
which they had trade a clear available revenue of 300,000 L
EtuvrnmeAtt, iu the year 1844 relieved
the trustees of all liability to pay these depositors. That
being so, they were obviously bound to the depositors
that they should stand in as good a situation, at least,
as they did before. He apprehended that Mr. Tidd
Pratt was altogether wrong in the construction
which he had put upon the Act of Parliament. If the
Government had done its duty with respect to Cafe"
street savings bank, that of Tralee would not have fallen
into so embarrassed a situation. The Hon. Member
then directed the attention of the House to the Killarney
Bank, and said that the money of the poor depositors,
subsequent to 1844, was transferred to the account of the
previous depositors, and that all those poor people got
was three shillings in the pound. He would not longer
detain the House than to say that he felt great pleasure
in seconding the amendment.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
was quite clear that the motion before the House was
simply for the appointment of a Committee to inquire
into and report upon the circumstances connected with
the failure of certain savings banks in Ireland, and int*
any security or liability that might exist for the satis•
faction of the losses thereby occasioned; but the
Honourable Gentleman who had just sat down was of
opinion that the Government ought to take upon
itself the payment of the deposits. He would confine
himself to the motion before the House, and show
that the appointment of such a Committee would lead
to very considerable expense and inconvenience conse-
quent upon the summoning ofpersons over from Ireland,
and that it was not, in his opinion, necessary, inasmuch
as they already had all the information that appeared
necessary, as given before a former Committee. Ile did
not mean to-night to enter into the very great and im-
portant question whether the Government was to take
upon itself that which it never did take upon itself,
liability for the whole demands of the depositors in
savings banks. Those banks were founded by kind-in-
tentioned individuals in their own neighbourhoods, and
those individuals had taken upon themselves to estab-
lish them for the benefit of the poor and the indus-
trious in their localities. They had also taken upon
themselves the whole management of those banks,
and the first act of the Government was, when the
trustees sent up account of the money, for the
Commissioners for the Reduction of the National
Debt, to take account of them ; but no one con-
nected with the Government had anything to do with
the management of the banks, nor with the appointment
of their officers. The actuary, for instance, was ap-
pointed by the trustees, and checked by the trustees. Ile
agreed in the opinion that when the liabilities to deposi•
tors amounted to 28,000,000/., the ease was very differ•
ent to that which existed at the time when they did not
amount to one and a half million. It was his intention
to lay upon the table of the House, in a short time,
Bill which would show what the determination of the
Government was with respect to savings banks, and he
at present entreated the House not to be carried awn,'
to an assent to the appointment of a Committee. I°
England, when persons ran away with the money in
their hands, the trustees of the savings banks invariably
came forward and refunded the deficit, by depositing
sufficient sum of money for that purpose; and in one
case which had come to his knowledge a sum of
7,000/. had been paid in that way. It was the
law in England, that whenever a deficit took places
it was to be made good by the trustees, and in
no case had the deficits been made good by
hadd?e
Go-
vernment. The three Irish cases which
were
brought under the notice of the House,
in which any complaints had been made against
Govern-
mentthe first
in respect to funds over which they had no control.
and over again that the actuary
The Hon. Member for Cork (Ahira.dFbaegeann)apsptaotiendtedovbeyr.
.irGeleynutlnedm_earnthsheoauultdhohiaivtye
,hbeuat cutesdannoutzraens
knownthe Go vt eh rat
ti
them en t f
fibeue tr
atheteedHeonnt
of the Act of Parliament,
officer officer appointed by t
under the provisions of the 9th
oavnedrnmtheantt
as regarded the liability of Go'
hGiese.aulthvo.rityscd)erfaivring
vernment with respect to savings banks, there was
not, he deemed it right to add, any law whatever that
t sy never had been liable.
Hon. Gentleman cited evidence taken before
the judge at the Tralee assizes in reference to the defal-_
the in similar
cases, of the judges in England. In the case of
cTohueld !tight
te them liable—they
judge as being contrary to the decisions,
cation in the Tralee bank, and adverted to the decision of
the Tralee
bank, the actuary made away with a very consider-
able sum of money, by falsifying his accounts; and
those accounts were certified by Dr. Denny and Xl'
Fitzgerald, two authorised pt r-ons. Mr. Fitzgerald was
asked how he could put his name t ) such a fallacy? and
his answer was that he had never examined them, and
took them to be correct. Mr. Tidd Pratt made his
award in the cast' of the Tralee bank, and the opinion
of the judges in England was that he was the sole judge
in those cases; however, the judge in Ireland upset that
opinion, and inasmuch as there were still pending sows
points of law connected with the Tralee bank, 11,°;
awaiting the decision of the Court of Queen's Benen
and as that decision would be pronounced early in the
approaching term, he (the Chancellor of the Exche:
quer) thought that it was advisable for the House of
Commons, pending such decision, not to appoint a
Committee. He did not for a moment deny that gre.s- t
injury had been done to the poor depositors by the
roguery of the actuary, and that great misery had beT- :
occasioned ; but he thought it would be his duty tosubmit to the House whether the appointment 0f $
Committee was likely to lead to any satisfactory con-
elusion? In 1831, when the trustees were willing that
the banks should be closed, Mr. Tidd Pratt went 00'