The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-20 00:00:00

land. To hold out to able-bodied persons that they should
be entitled to out-door relief would destroy every motive to
t.eete tia! eteeeeteee eel leees
tonodrabie bane-set the eleat uer tor eel. sew In cad
laid so much stress—those seven hundred thousand
persons would at once be transferred from public works to re-
ceive relief under the Bill before the House. In sic counties
—Sligo, Roscommon, Leitrim, Galway, Clare, and Mayo,
1,300,000 persons were at present receiving assistance in the
shape of employment under the Labour Rate Act; but
the whole of the rates in those counties was only one
million seven hundred thousand pounds; it was therefore a
mockery and a delusion to say that the rates cellist support such a
vast number. He admitted that the land must now be taxed
to a greater extent than heretofore for the support of the poor.
The famine was the difficulty by which the Noble Lord was
pressed, and to meet it he proposed a permanent measure for
what was a temporary calamity. He felt certain that the Go-
vernment were iutrodueing a principle of which they did not
approve,—a principle which he believed would be productive of
much evil and diaster. There was a latent disposition to in-
dustry in the people, and it ought to be the province of the
Government to stimulate instead of deadening it, and if the
people knew that there was a permanent law to compel the
Government to support them, they would be inclined to remain
indolent. For these real ons he would move the omission of
clause 2 (A) in the Bill, and when the time came he was
prepared to take the sense of the House upon it.—( Hear. )
Mr. D. BROWNE said that there was a general opinion in
Ireland that out-door relief was the only system of relief agree-
able to the people of Ireland. —( Laughter.) And he hoped
that the Government would persevere in their intentions.
The landlords of Ireland had neglected their duty, and some
decisive step ought to be taken.
Mr. YOUNG said he was of opinion that the property of
Ireland should support the poor, and with that view he sup-
ported the measure of the Noble Lord some sears since to in-
troduce a poor-law into Ireland, which had effected many col-
lateral advantages. He, however, considered that the
first clause of the Bill would more than double
the present rates of Ireland. ( Hear, hear.) Since
many who would find their suppot t from private resources,
and who would never enter a workhouse, would now seek and
obtain relief. He, therefore, considered that the objections of
the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of
Dublin were not exaggerated. With regard to the second
clause, he was of opinion that it introduced a most dangerous
principle—it contemplated a permanent remedy for what was
only a temporary evil, and was only calculated to alarm and
mislead. There was nothing in the *Bill which made it at all
necessary that out-door relief should be given to 'he Irish
pauper. He had an extract from a letter written by a gen-
tleman employed on the Commission both in England and Ire-
land, which stated that those who were employed on out-door
works were demoralised, and their employment generated a bad
feeling between them and the ordinary working classes. The
provisions of this Bill had generated a very great feeling of alarm.
Amongst the proprietors of land in Ireland, in the county of
Cavan, there were three unions in which the respective ratings
were already 71/2d., 91,2 d., and 1034 d. in the pound, and upon
such rating would the Government attempt to enforce the ad-
ditional expense of out-door relief. In the last census taken,
it was found that in that county there was one
labourer to nine statute acres, that was to say
twice as many as could be employed, even supposing
their agriculture to be of the very best description.
He was afraid that before the agriculture of Ireland attained a
high pitch, years upon years of experience must be gone
through ; but in its present condition it was impossible for it to
support the burden about to be placed on it. •
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the Right Hon. Gentle-
man who had moved this clause in Committee upon this Bill,
proceeded in his speech upon a fallacy. The Right Hon.
Gentleman seemed to suppose, and to take it for granted, that
the present state of Ireland was to be a criterion for the present
poor-law. In his argument, he had asked, how is this clause
and this to provide for the present calamitous necessities
of Ireland. He should admit at once, as he had already ad-
mitted in the course of that evening, that he did not think
that a permanent poor-law, or any permanent law would pro-
vide for a state of things so calamitous as they at present ex-
isted in Ireland. When he beard the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman say that these were 300,000 persons now resitting in
Mayo, and that the property of that county was not
sufficient to support them by out-door relief, he must say that
they could not expect that the Right Hon. Gentleman's
description referred to the usual state of things in Ireland.
He could not admit that the present Bill, and particularly the
clause then under consideration, was to be tried by such a
test, and indeed if they were to try it by that test,
'now completely would all the circumstances mentioned
by the Right Honourable Gentleman fail. The Right
Honourable Gentleman had sa ii that he did not
correctly represent the views of the deputation which he saw
upon that subject. He was very sorry if he had not correctly
represented their views on what he had said, but certainly he
did wish to convey what they had said, and he admitted
the importance of the observations of the gentlemen whom he
then saw. The Right Hon. Gentleman said, that
one of their declarations represented that they were
fully prepared to admit that property in Ireland should be
burdened to any extent for the purposes of indoor relief- Let
the House apply that system of indoor relief to that which
the Right Hon. Gentleman took as the usual state of things in
Ireland. Let them try that as compared with the present sate
of things in Ireland. Let them take 700,000 persons, heads
of families, representing 3,000,000 persons, and who
would build workhouses to contain that number?—
( Hear, hear.) Yet if they look, the Right Honourable
Gentleman's argument in its application to the present Bill
and to the rresent state of things in Ireland, and if they took
it as well for itself as for the measure to be proposed, he did
not remember anything of very great importance which was
proposed as a substitute, except the system of in-door relief,
which system, be it remembered, was contained in the present
Act of Parliament for the poor-law for Ireland. It was
therein enacted, that if there was not sufficient room in the
workhouse it should be lawful for the board of guardians to
raise money for the purpose of building a new workhouse, or
of making additions to the existing, workhouses. That Bill
had not provided for a state of things 'at all resembling the pre-
sent calamities of Ireland. Would the Right Hon. Gentleman
who had thus argued from the present state of things show
how vague the poor-law might be to remedy them.
The Right Honourable Gentleman who had just sat
down had proceeded upon a fallacious argument, for
he had represented it as the wish of the Government that
out-door relief should be the determined rule, and in-door
relief the exception, in Ireland. He thought that the Hon.
Gentleman in that respect had misunderstood both the Bill
which was then proposed and the observations which he (Lord
John Russell) had made to the House before the Speaker left
the chair that evening. He had never argued that it was fit
or desirable that out-door relief and help should be given as a
general rule from the unions of Ireland. He was not of opi
nion that, in itself, it was a desirable system. The Hon.
Gentleman would admit, that no labour given in the rural
parishes of England was a sufficient test of the existing desti-
tution. He entirely subscribed to that sentiment. The
system of out-door relief had been decried, but how was the
Government to relieve those who were suffering, unless by a
system of out-door relief, when the workhouses were full ?
This case he had stated when he formerly addressed the House,
and he now wished to fix their attention on it, as being the
ordinary mode of relief. In this respect take the law of England.
It was sufficient for the purpose of meeting the destitution of
the country, and all he asked was, that they would make the
law of Ireland also sufficient for the same purpose. In illus-
tration he would call the attention of the House to a case of
great distress at Todmorden some years ago. In this parti-
cular case the workhouse was quite full, and the guardians of
the poor ordered that the able-bodied should receive sot-door
relief. The law was, that the guardians should apply some
test, to show that the party who might seek relief was really
destitute, and with this view, that the relief should be
given in food and in the workhouse, or out of tee
workhouse if there was not accommodation within.—( Hear. )
He asked should that relief be denied to Ireland, and that
there should be no sufficient resources for the guardians when
the workhouse was full, but that they should be obliged to say
we cannot see you die of hunger, but we have no alternative,
as the law prevents us raising the necessary funds ?—( Hear,
hear.) For such a case as this he proposed the present system
of relief. He did so, because he was afraid that in the years
before them—though the calamity of destitution might not
exist to its present extent—that very serious distress would be
found to pervade Ireland. The Hon. Gentleman who had
just spoken said, and said truly, that there were three times
the number of agricultural labourers to the land of Ireland
compared to what there were on the best cultivated districts of
England ; and four times the number there were on the ave-
rage of English land. Still there must be some way or other
of providing for these Irish labourers.—(Cheers.) There had
grown up an unfortunate confidence, not only among the
poorest, but among the richest, of that country, in the potato
as the food of the people.--( Hear, hear.) This being so, and
considering the failure of the crop, it could not be expected
that the potato would ever again constitute the permanent food
of the people to the same extent as before. Other crops
would have to take the place of the potato, in order to supply
the same quantity of food which that root before supplied.
But he said that in order to do ao, and in order to
lead to a better system of cultivation, they could have no
other resource so good as charging the property of Ireland
with the maintenance of the destitute poor.—(Cheers.) He
also b!licved, as it respected the ordinary condition of the
country, and the suppression of vagrancy and mendicity, that
this measure would operate in a beneficial manner ; that, as it
regarded the bad habits which these engendered, no scheme
would be so good, in putting an end to them, and in operating
as an inducement to both landlords and farmers to improve
their system of cultivation. It would cause the abandonment
of useless and unproductive works, and be the means of engaging
the labourers in the cultivation of the fields. In future there
would be greater cultivation of land than there had been, for
unless the soil was much more scientifically worked, the popu-
lation could not be in a satisfactory or happy state. A great
transition would take place, one of much difficulty and danger,
and it behoved the Government, in consulting all the interests
of the country, to consider what measure would be best calms
lated to assist the country through. Taking the advice of
Sir R. Kane in his excellent work on the industrial
resources of Ireland, they would have to consider the most
adequate and best mode of cultivating the land
and increasing its produce. He thought that the
mode of living of the Irish poor, their habits indolent and
slothful, arising out of the great facility of procuring food with
little labour, and their wretched dwellings destitute of all do-
mestic comforts, in a great degree were the cause of the want
of skill and energy among them. But the labourers no longer
depending on the potato for food, he believed would be a cause
why the farmers would greatly improve in the cultivation of
their lands, and in general habits. He believed that no
labourers were more capable of exertion ; none could
more advantageously employ their powers than
the Irish labourers.—( Hear, hear.) During inquiries which
he had made at the time the measure of the Noble Lord the
Member for Lynn respecting railways, was under considera-
tion, he (Lord John Russell) had obtained some information on
this subject. He was informed that it had been said, when
Irish labourers went on railway work, that for the first two or
three weeks they had a good deal to learn, but the work of
education went rapidly on, and it was found that in six weeks
they could labour as well as any of the others.—( Hear,
hear.) In France, where the English labourers on
railways were paid higher rates of wages than
French labourers, the Irishmen were e reckoned equally
skilful with the English and equally well paid.—(Hear, hear.)
If, therefore, such were the disposition and power of the Irish
labourers, why not direct them to the cultivation of the land,
and thus occupied 'why might they not expect them to be as
good and skilful?—(Hear, hear.) It was his strong Itelief
that the present measure would cause a new existence among
the Irish farmers and labourers. At present there was a great
difference in many parts of Ireland, for though some districts
he could not look upon but with alarm, in others great
exertion was making for the next harvest, and
altogether a greater breadth of land was sown than
there had ever been before, being the be,einning of a new state
of existence, and a new system of cultivation.—( Ilear, hear. )
If they looked to the past history of the English poor-law, they
would find that at first it was provided that the able-bodied
labourers, who would not work, should be sent to the workhouse
as a punishment, and obliged to wear a badge of disgrace.
Subsequently they had recourse to another system. In the
reign of George the Ist, the workhouse test was introduced,
obliging those who were out of employment and destitute,
while there was room in the workhouse to go in there , so as to
show that if they were really in want 'of food and shelter, their
going in there was proof of their condition, and food and
shelter would then be accordingly given, care at the same time
being taken that the relief should not make the condition of
the recipient better than that of the independent labourer.—
gee a
(Hear, hear.) Such a system was one which required