The Sun.
London, England, 1847-05-18 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUE

;on of the manner Ito impose upon them a vassalage. The Poor-
the sanction of the law Commissioners .themselves said tohfat
destitution,
back sent crime, which was the result
back to the times was repugnant to the feelings of human nature. The
,ad to find that the II ,n. Member for Bath was constrained too
the 43d of
sous in deprecating fur Ireland it was necessary to go back t
would,
tissioners pursued Elizabeth. As many Members of Parliamentguardians,
ttuetpioren-,
e number of extracts no doubt, refer to the conduct of the poor-lawtowards the poor.conduct. e wcu ,
•011-k
which he had culled from country newspapers during the he would not dwell upon their ,
union,
prison which gave_ an account of the however, allude to the Long Town union—(
years 1842 and 1343,
manner in which large numbers of persons were sent tea The Hon. Member deprecated the state otliZirt'
prison for merely disobeying the orders of tee poor- And these were the. foultiscl4.a,tiohn)rs
the
pwuhripcohsereoptoerrtusseh•iehrge
law Commitsiners, but he would not take up the time used against him
hiin
ch he had not further alluded to
of the House by reading them, be old stating that they him, reports to w
had especial reference to Sussex, Hampshire, Essex, than to state that SirshJoowhendt‘hVaatlt,nignhmaamte,siwnerheisslereeppiohrgt
Sent, Surrey, and London, and also with respect to the upon the same union,fourteen
beds, and when he laid similar
Andover, Rtdbridge, and Sevenoaks Unions. The treat- the Home Secretary, Sir James
ment of the poor in the Blything Union so exasperated fects before in thirteen otrheHouse,
rned wed poem
eyes, and smote his breast, that
the working classes in that vicinity that they were on Grahhialtu,
gs could occur. The report stated, that from
their way to the union (which was protected by police) 1
with pickaxes in their ha,. , when they were met by a thesuch
day the law was enforced, in 1838, to the time in
tothientleartfeerMe,inyiest-
clergyman, who said. ad , .-,sing one, " Honest man!" i which it was made a resident poor law, commissioners
" Honest !" He replied, " the law won't allow us to beh \ Itaeard
said,never
tue it.
for Ot
the
he .i
Governmentr in g this,
Minis-
honest when we curve" poor we are treated like felons..
what was the ease ? When did they enter the Houk
He, however, dissuaded them fr-on their purpose. This
0 eain ? not for four years—not till May, 1846—not
occurred as far back as in 1342. And her Majesteiles \
until he himself came down to the house, and asked the
Government said, after all that had occurred, thactoi-n3.
Government to insist that an Assistant Poor-law Com-
law worked well, and they screened the P.
were the next visits paid. They were made at intervals
missioners against publie inquiry and publi)coir,n:dai:nation, missioner should visit Bingley, Now, let them see what
ten months, thirteen months, fourteen months,
and aided and a,sisted Liietn in oppressing
oth poor ; f.e. ,
whenever aly thing was said against the P or-taw Com- iof
ante Lis was a state of things
of State existing,
missions rs, the Noble Lord rose with great chivalry and of eighteen months, i 1-,
and this, was the conduct pursued
defended them ; and when the latoS
began to be by men in the receipt of public money to the amount of
for the Horn.' Department (Sir J. Graham)a
lime sveeeeable with respect to the law, the Noble thirteen or fourteen hundred a year. Before he con-
Lord got up and protested against any alteration in the eluded, he would say, that if the thoveroment were to
law, and his sentiments were loudly cheered. " Unifor- attempt to enforce the powers of this poor-law, they
practice was, no doubt, a grand principle ; but i would have a rebellion in a week. They could not en
miry of
it was one which had been tested and had been found 1 force it against tba rich, it was the poor alone whom
fallacious. Now he ( dr. Ferrand ) had seen the they could so oppress. They should become the pro
bodies of persons who had been starved to death tectore, instead of the oppreeeors ef the poor, for there
by this law. He once attended a jury, who did not exist a more loyal, a more patient, a more obe•
felt desirous to return a verdict of " wilful murder " (Lent, a more industrious class upon the face of the globe.
against the relieving officer, and the coroner agreed with And what they could have done to merit such treatment.
them, because it was well known to them that the man neither he nor any man could fathom. They had borne
had refused to afford the woman who had died relief ; I their misery for thirteen years, let them depend
but when the man was taxed with this, he drew the upon it the day of reckoning was at hand.
printe I instructions of the Poor-law Commissioners from they had trampled upon them, they had deprived them
his pocket and threw them on the table, and in the most of their dearest rights, and they could not now appeal to
insulting manner snapped his fingers at the jury. them with that generous confidence which they could
Sir GEORGE GREY—What was the nature of those have done before they inoculated the laws of England
instructions? with the accursed principles of Malthus. They would
Mr. FERRAND said he had not got a copy of them, have no right to appeal to them for allegiance when they
but they were to the effect, that the man was not to go a refused them protection. He would conclude by moving
yard out of his parish for the purpose of dispensing re- that the Bill be read that day six months.
lief. The woman lived on the other side of a brook. Mr. WAKLEY seconded the motion.
abobt ten yards out of the parish, but she had often re- easy to
Mr. ROEBUCK—The Hon. Gentleman. might do
ceived relief from the same officer ; he, however, was much mischief and effect little good. It was veryl
the toor-
only in the habit of visiting that part of his die. talk about the 43d of Elizabeth, thetyr :
anything of the three subjecth It was quite evi
triet once a week. Then the auditors had caused lew Commissioners, and rights,inalienable. ann:ithout under-
the greatest dissatisfaction to the board of guardians, standing
Eliza-
Every post brought him letters setting lorth the
• • tof it, so much so that he would
evils which the auditors caused. The relieving h• heuiteignoran
;fent the Hon. Gentleman had never read the 43d of
het , was_ q
thin that that he had not ever opened the pages of
officer of Dudley had brought an action against the l
tshYe an
nct that contained it. Nothing was so easy as to
guardians of the poor, for treating the inmates oti'
rant about what one did not understand, and nothing so
the unien to "plum. pudding" on Christmas-day. It
easy to obtain popularity by a sham affectation of a de
1843, the Hon Gentleman the Member for Finsbury
vetedness to the came of the people. Now he should
(Mr. Wakley) came down to the House, and made a
prove the ignorance of the Hon. Member. He would
rove that the 43d of Elizabeth had not been di parted
house were s a starved, that they were living on carrion
horrible and startling statement, that it was currently
reported that the pi7or in the Andover Union Work- P
from. lii the time of Elizabeth the convents were put
ancrfiehtina for the possession of the bones which they 1
itown ; the Act to which he alluded sprung from the
were employed in grinding for the purpose of manure. 1-ie suppression of these religious houses, for they had been in
now clime t,is t 7 —and carer ehe asked—ehere were the the habit of maintaining a certain number of poor around 1
Poor:law Commisioners who bad caused all this cruelty them. They came. to the door of the monastery, and
and I-nisei,' ? The Government said that they were to they received relief proportioned to their wants ; and
be dismiss d from their offices, but the Government they might tails as they liked about the Reformation, and
ware still prepared en a state of despair) t , defend no Popery," and all that sort of thing—they might do
them. Why did they do so ? Was it because very well to be let off as cannon against one another
they believed that the charges which had been made —but they could not controvert the fact of the immense
sateintt them were untrue ? Could they deny the good which they conferred on the districts where the)
state of things which existed in the Andover Union, or were founded. However, after their suppression, a
the at ttements which he had made that night, could they (lumber of sturdy beggars wandered over the country—
believe that the voice of the people throughout the such are the words of the Act—and for these it was
coantry would have been raised aeetinst them if they had necessary to provide. From hence sprung the 43d 01
no:: been guilty of all that had been. imputed to them ? Elizabeth, which enacted that churchwardens should
What did the Right Hon. Baronet say in introducing-be appointed. whose duty it would be to set to work
the present Bill ? Did he say that they mutt adopt such children as had been deserted by their parents, an
" uniformity of practice ? " No ; that the operation of also all such persons as were maimed or infirm, or who
of the measure must vary with the circumstances of the had no means to support themselves. They heard a
district of the country te which it was applied. Was great deal of the rights of the poor, but what he desired
" uniformity of practice " still to be the principle of the was the rights of the industrious poor against the lazy
measure ? poor. These latter braved the authorities of the parish,
Sir G. GREY—I died not say so. they came into the vestry, they demanded relief, and the
Mr. FERRAND—Then is it now to vary? But did the p or farmer was frightened out of his wits, because, if
Government think that men had not the same love for he rsfased, his stacks were fired, his cattle were houghed,
their wives and children in one part of the county as and he himself stood in terror of his life. The local
in another, that concessions were to be made in favour ;tutherities ware totally unable to deal with this growing
of the northern part of that county, in consequence of the mischief ; they said, let us unite a number of
violence which ti,. y had manifested towards the Parishes, and let us put the authority at a distance
measure, He called upon them, therefore, to say from us. Let there be a central board in
how the measure was to vary ? They had no London, to whom an appeal can be made. And now
right .to pass such a law ; and, what was more, what is the meaning of all this talk about inalienable
the people of this country would not tolerate a varying right? He remembered reading a poem in his boyhood,
law under which the greatest tyranny might be inflicted " The Country Justice," he thought it was by Dyer, in
upon them. In some parts of the county they said which these petty feuds were happily painted, for the
that no relief wes to be given except in the workhouse, poet described a woman lying-in in a cart, while two
but he had heard a Secretary of State state that the parishes were fighting almost which of them should re-
p ople might have relief out of the workhouse. There- ceive and maintain her.—(Hear, hear.) The advantage
tore, ,ha said, let them have a law clearly defined, in of this law then was the ct ntral authority it was what
order that the poet' might know how they would be all deeired; but as soon as three men are selected, as soon
atleeted, and what cruelties they might anticipate would as they enter Somerset-house they are marked out, and ,
be practised upon them, instead of leaving the matter there is not a trading politician who does not point his
in ,ho hands of an irresponsible board. He had read ringer at them in reproach ; and then the Hon. Member
the defence which had been mate of' the Poor-law Cum- comes forward and talks ef the people of England, much
miseioners, but it did not deserve the name which had after the fashion of the three tailors in Tooley-street.
been .applitel to it. as it was nothing more than an Depend upon it they would never have heard of these
expizrte statement: it amounted to this, that after evils were it not for the appointment of these three '
tairtvea year. of oppression of the poor they had beet, Commissioners. With one or two exceptions, those who
enabled to save 1,000,0001. a year, of which the poor spoke so loud about the poor-law were those who were
had been robb.el, in order that the commissioners might most opposed to giving political rights. Some test was
be enabled to make this boast. They might have saved absolutely necessary in order to enable a distinction to
tho rates in the south of Englund, where incen- ne made be:liven the idle and the industrious poor.
diarism was rife, and in those districts from Phis test was found in the poor house test, and
which the poor had been driven, to the manor- nothing was easier than to find persons who
factoring- districts, to equalise wages, or to were ready to find fault with this test, upon
escape persecution by becoming inmates of the gaols, all such popularity-hunting opponents of that
but in the north of England the very converse had oc- test he would put the stamp of canting hypocrites. It
curred. The guardians of Wakefield, thinking that it was considered by the law that that man who was con-
would be no use to petition the House on the subject of tent to come to the poor-house and receive relief was a
the poor law, as Parliam-nt had delegated its pow( re n- man deserving of relief. Now, a great deal had been
three Commissioners, petitioned the board, and urged said about the inalienable rights of the poor to relief
that the Wakefield Union should be ab _dished, as it conferred on them by the 43d of Elizabeth. The Hon.
had been tsroductive of the greatest evil, as the poor- Member hail quoted from Coke and Blackstone, but it
rates had increased 10,306/. in three years.—(Hear.) was his (Mr. Roebuck's) opinion that the Hun. Member
That was the way they diminished the expenditure.— did not know which of those great writers first wrote
(hear, hear.) We had also returns from the unions ire upon the subject. Now, what was the meaning of in-
his part of the country, but it was sufficient to state that alienable rights? If they were defined, as the Hon.
they had increased, and were increasing.—(Hear.) Then Member said, by an Act of Parliament, then those
what wes the other cost of this unconstitutional measure rights could be altered or removed by another Act, and 1
during the last 13 years ? First, they had had the re- the Act abolishing those inalienable rights would be the
bellien in Wales, fearful outbreaks in the north of Eng- law of the land, as well as that which conferred this
land, incendiarism rife in the south, and a fearful amount inalienable right. Tree inalienable right spoken of was
of ceneealtnents of childbirth, in order that they might a right to relief, but a relief to be given only by labour.
escape the treatment which they could not fail to expo- It was his habit day after day to go into th . habitations
rience in the unions. They had had to establish rural of his poorer countrymen, and it was his firm opinion
police in different parts of the country, to call on' that there were thousands of the people of this country
- 10,000 pensioners,
t , have geols enlarged and new one- inc roe clad, worse fed, and worse housed than those who
erected ; the essions in the north of England were he'd were taken under the protection of the po r-law, net-
every seven weeks, instead of every twelve weeks, and withstanding. the Hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr.
winter sessions were obliged to be held, which was rather Wekley) had ventured to call the poor-houses a den.
an unusual occurrence, and Mr. Justice Coleridge had A poor man said that he was unable to support himself,
stated at the last York as- z,s that crime was rapidly in• he came to the state exchequer, and was told that if he
creasing o,er the whole c.untry. Then they were going to came into the poor-house his wants would be provided for.
build barracks in Birmingham, in order that they might But then came in the pathos of the novelist and the poet,
be.enabled to dispatch the military to any part at a short who said what a hardship it was to separate the wife
notice in order to keep the people in a state of despotism. ,aem the husband and the children. Why, that was a
ConSideration had caused this? Why, the tyranny thing occurring every day in the life of tne soldier and
practised upon the people by the Poor-law Commissioner, the sailor, and even the experience of Irish Members
for they had the people discontented in the north, in the would add another chapter to the patriotic pathos of
south, and east districts ; and the peace was only main novelists, for in most cases they were compelled to
tained by the presence of the military and police. Work- leave their wives and children in Ireland, but no lion.
houses had been erected under the protection of a midi- Member: were in the habit of standing up in that House
tau- guard, and they had greater distress in this and in a burst of patriotic enthusiasm calling public
country than they had had since the time of the French attention to their distressing situation.—(Laughter.)
Thvelution. These were the penalties they were called fie was quite aware that this workhouse test was a very
upon to pay. And how long did they think the people
unp palar term, and then just at the close of the seventh
Wcriiel submit to this state of things? they were going to session of Parliament it was a very enticing subject to
lay hold of. He knew well the risk which attended the
let the Poor law Commissioners "down easily," but did
they think that the people were nos sufficiently course he was taking upon this subject, but as he had
aware that this would be a great question at the commenced his political carter so he inten4ed to con-
next general election ? The Whigs had stood tinue it in spite. of all opposition to the contrary. It
pretty firmly to the declarations made by them at the was a matter of absolute necessity that a test should be
last general election. But what was the conduct of the provided for the able-
bodied poor. Now, with respect
Late Government ? Whet was their conduct with Cam- to the Poor-law Commissioners, he must say with
bridge when the poor-law was made the rallying my, regret that they had not acted according to the law.
:Ind when they came to the House and betrayed them ? rhey had quailed before another power. The Times
He could name a borough where two candidates took i newspaper was the great point of all the opposition to
at turns to do the pathetic on the new poor-law—or e this measure, and the Honourable Member for Knares-
was returned to the Homo, and continued his oosition borough was but a faint shadow, a sort of will o'-
to the poor-la v, and the otner was rejected, buttee sub (he-wisp, of that journal—(Laughter)—and every
sequently obtained a seat in that House, and now sup- thump upon that red box, every parenthesis, every
ported the lave—(Heer, hear.) He challenged any one to accent in the speech of the lion. Member was nothing
say that the law had not only proved a great failure, but a but a bad imitation of the Times newspaper. The arti-
bitter curse upon the country, and the remedy was the cles of the Times newspaper were, however, written by
same cruel and unconete ational system under another a gentleman conversant with the subject upon which he
form. In the first clause tour Cabinet Ministers were to wrote, and acute enough to see that the Commissioners
be pledged to maintain this law against all opposition ; were not adapted to carry out the provisions of a good
and 'in the sixth clause two commissioners and the and wholesome law. And this was the real cause of the
president we-e empowered to use any powers vested in bad working of the measure—the Government had
the Whole body. By the eleventh they were empowered chosen persons to carry out the measure who were unfit
to summon witnesses, and also to make rules, and to for the task. Then the 43d of Elizabeth stated that
alter them. Bit was the Right Hon. Baronet inclined work should he provided for the able-bodied poor; but
to sign an orcet to separate a man from his wife, and his• it had been said that bones were given to the paupers to
children from their Parents? Was he going to sanction crush. Now was there not in the different classes of
all the tyranny which had been practised during the society many persons employed in trades and callings
past 13 years? If so, what right had he to do so? A which, it' they were set to by the Commissioners, would
poor man had as inalienable a right to relief as the have raised such a storm as nothing could have crushed?
Right Hon, baronet had to his own property. Lord What was the trade of a nightman ?—(Laughter)—or
Brougham
pared to test :heiTfz,•
hal admitted that this was so. Was he pre- the type-founder, whose life was destroyed by the small
dear to him t things which entered into his s -stem r
eetaure upon those who were near and iron
was with
. ) , o the
-=,-.•,t, what right had he to inflict its painter' tortures upon the afflicted
.as he was disease consequent
Right Hon. Baronet'h
Per man ? And let him tell the upon the pursuit of his calling,—or the collier,
mustas the
of his wife and childreant a poor man
was
just as
fond
working many fathoms under ground in about
of his. But whatßight lion. Baronet was two feet of space, in obtaining the coals
net Minisfter who was thee position of a Cabi- which made the cheerful Christmas fire ? What were all
the poor man, for no compelledother - to act thus towards these but as different species of that labour which was
prior and tuable to obtain work,
e-
n'Trene than that he was the common lot of humanity, and by which man was to
responsibility upon her Majesty. By
tt11.11:y threw the ' obtain his livelihood. Yet what a cry had been raised
the Queen, by the advice of the Priey counXiah clause about the employment of the poor at Andover, while all
powered to alter the rules ; but the four W-;.s. em- the great mass of the enjoyments of society in general
Council. The
ail.:et. hadil been overlooked. Was it to be said for a moment
Minister; were Members of the Privy
tshautultahebidle vagabond at the ate of the industrious man
Ministers rare, therefore, responsible. Then they were
reileuhitled to say "Gige me of your substance, for
to apnoint inspectors. From that tyre:. ey to whom i
you are rich
were they to appeal ? Their appeals mitaht be kepi, right to ma ?:_ The industrious man would have a
batik from ...he Sovereign. He contended that ihe House my family say havetl a "il4 and children, I support
.had no right to pess the present Bill. Locke, and a num- I idle vagabond,:
beYtetaintidtlewdhy should John Thomes, the
her of high authorities, were opposed to the principle ! money?" But how was thist° John
my hard-earned
which was here contended for. I,;)rdiVinfOrd thought that vagabond, to be distinguished from)tin Thomas,, the idle
duetrious man? w John Smith, the in-
powers which were here given to the Poor-law Commas- • by, what more nat
him work?
sinners were such as could not be exercised by even the'
in a shed, o n said, the • wer
Sovereign Lord Abinger had also strongly expressed word:,
ore set to
himself upon this question. It was their bounden duty I Not so. however,Aht bus
buildings were well built anelaven.
ventilated. ut, then, said the Hon. Membern` well
to set the present matter it rest, He would read a letter
which he ha I received from n working
man. (The Hon. tinsbury, it was a gaol, and the
Well, he it, or be it not, a I
dress was
for
a prison
Member here read the letter in . i - dross.pr-son dress,all
questtoe, which strong y
say wae that the drees such as it " he
deprecated the working of the poor-law.) Cooke and could 'd was, was
muchwarmer ,than
Blackston agreed with him on this subject.
.Judge
tnuch be tier an
doors ; but because •
far.E.wiefee()wha also of the opinion which he expressed, and honest man out of it was of
',Toy colour and uniform, then it was a prison
• It's i Brougham himself admitted this right - a brown or k.,
------ Ar--41-1144 Note
- what could be more absurd than to have ft
- --te- ....- per to relief. And they had no right dress.

~.~:._..

question depending upon the colour or cut of a coat.
For so this question really was, for if the colour had
been red and the dress uniform, then it would not be
called a prison dress. But now the real question was—
what was to be done for the poor of England? Let the
lion. Members for Knaresboiough and Finsbury bring
forward some measure upon the subject themselves.
4ily fancy a Bill drawn up by the Hon. Member for
Knaresborough. What would he (Mr. Roebuck) give to
see an Act for the poor drawn up by the Hon. Member
for Knareshorough. If that Hon. Member would only be
kind enough (for there was no doubt that he had
some spark of kindly feeling in him) to bring
in such a measure, he (Mr. Roebuck) would undertake
to route him and his Bill out of the door in a very few
minutes. A specimen of legislative confusion had arisen
lately in all the hurly burly of a Committee appointed
to inquire into the Law of S-ttlement
Mr. P. BORTHWICIL—The law of settlement has nothing
to do with the poor-law.
Jr.N ROEBUCK—That was now one of the bad effects of
speaking on a subject upon which the person was unacquainted,
and showed the rashness with which
Fools rushed in where angels dared to tread."

The Burgage Tenure (Scotland) Bill and the Crown Char-
ters (Scotland) Bill went through Committee.
The Drainage of Lands Bill was postponed till Friday.
SEDUCTION AND PROST
BILLITUTION SUPPRES-
SION

Mr. SPOONER moved that this Bill be read a first time.
Mr. C. BERKELEY objected to the Bill being proceeded
with at that late hour of the night, and if the Hon. Member
persisted in his motion, he would move as an amendment that
the House do now adjourn.
Colonel SIBTHORP suggested to his Noble Friend op-
posite, that the object of the Bill might be attained by the in-
troduction of a clause in the Health of Towns Bill.
The House then divided, when the numbers were—

He believed, in saying this, that he was speaking the senti-
aunts of the people of this country. The rational part of the
people, and the rational part of the labouring population. agreed
with him. He did not maintain the argument that men were
equally entitled to relief, whether honest or dishonest ; for when
they told a man that he might obtain relief—that he quid de-
mand it, whether able or unable to obtain work, he considered
that the glory of this country would depart; but when they
told him that it was the last resource of an honest man, whea
he was wholly unable to support himself, that it was aid in the
season of prod, and only on that occasion they would stand as
the lords of the human grad. But if a man, were in a condition
to say, " I ask, and you shall gitie,? instead of e dignified popu-
lation, they would have a craving, subservient, subjected pope
lation—a miserable race of cringing sltves, instead of a raco of
up:hoi
honour
ohut
ratnodthonestthose
men—(ho woul
would
comprisee ar
yb, believed
inasmucha as wasi
the t 3
• me 4m rs
lot drsut wouldy of
tieh
al. nation i o
seats
t o maintainin
that
hat such
House; b
a character atchtiesr
must among
be
e
our people, and, therefore, be asked them to maintain this
great measure ot relief, to give to the deserving
poor, and not to give to the undeserving poor, that to which
they were not entitled. Those who had hitherto been entrusted
frith the carrying out of the law, had not had that stedfastness
of mind which was necessary for the proper carrying out of the
law ; and, therefore, he entrusted the Noble Lor to let no
personal feeling- enter into 'a matter which affected so vast a
number of the industrious classes, and to give them a commis-
sion free from, and, consequently, above, all suspicion.
Mr. BANKES was rather surprised that the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman should treat the opinions of the Hon.
Member for Knaresberough (Mr. Ferrand), so lightly,
when he himself was no great liNathority upon pub-
lic matters of this kind ; but when he taunted
the Hon. Gentleman wished not to bring in a Bill as expres-
sive°, his views; he merely repeated the taunt which the
Noble Lord a,t the head of the Government had thrown out
at the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the other night.--( A
laugh.) The only difference in the new Commission would be,
that it would be the same as of old, with the addition of more
. viewed it; a constitutional light, and it was well to do so at the
outset. He fear:id the Noble Lord, who he admitted was op.
pressed by business, had act had time to look into this Bill

For the amendment.................f,....,.
Against it .„
Majority against adjournment —ss
Another division took place immediately after? en Ow motion
that this debate be now adjourned,
Fir the amendment
Against it.,..,,
Majority for pon- ad jaurnmeßt ,
....... _bi
When we were admitted we found
Colonel SIBTHORP addressing the House. He asked
what hindered thp chief officer* of the City ef irdlq4
sweeping out the soil impirity ficim the metropolis.
What aided that great Act, the Health of Towns' Bill. The
City must be pure—no doubt pure. He sun Tested
object of this IDatli shotild '0 met clauke. in the Heilth.of
Towns Bill. 11e thought it would be better in the hands of
the Government. He moved that the Bill should be read this
gay six months.
On
Mr. NEWDEGATE expressed himself surprised that Hon.
Gentlemen would not allow this Bill to be tested by a Com-
mittee.
Sir GEORGE GREY hoped the Bill would be allowed to
be read a first time. It was an unusual thing to oppose it
op the First reading,
Air. C. BERKELY agreed with the gallant Colonel (Sib-
thorp) that the Bill ought to be handed over to the Govern-
ment, and certainly should not be discussed at that hour of the
night. He moved that the House do now adjourn.
Mr. FORBES was surprised that Hon. Gentlemen should
meet this Bill at the very earliest stage, and oppose the first
reading. He trusted that, out of respect to the feeling of the
country, expressed at different meetings, and in courtesy to
the Government, the House would allow it to proceed.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
The House adjourned at a Quarter to Two o'clock.

•
and into others which had been recently introduced with the
sanction of the Government. For instance, the Health
of Towns Bill and other Bills, which would create
a number of new offices, but the Health of Towns Bill had
been proved to be an useless measure, and that it would in
terfere with private rights and private property, and the Noble
Lord had not been able to dine with his constituents until he
had told them that the city of London would be exempted
from the operation of the Bill, and subsequently he had ex-
cluded other metropolitan di,triets.—( Hear, hear.) The new
Prison Bill, which was of this kind of measure, would create a
number of new officers who would supersede those who bad
been entrusted with the government of the poor in their respcc
tive localities for many years.—( Hear, hem) Swift in his
" Advice to Servants," said, " spend all your master's income,
because the more you cause him to spend, the more he will be
respected"—(Laughter)—and the Noble Lord seemed to act
upon this principle, and to get rid of any surplus
by creating new offices to spend it upon. Thus he had pre-
pared two new placemen in connexion with this Bill, shortly
after the proposition to appoint a new railway commission t.ati
been submitted to the House.—(Hear.) He (Mr. Bankes)
had always considered that the body which had the manage-
ment of the poor should be represented by one member of the
body in that House; but do not let two of the present body
be so elevated, because the nation was dissatisfied with them.
Why not have two of the Lords of the Treasury, two of the
Lords of the Admiralty, or two of the Board of Ordnance?—
(Laughter.) He conld not, therefore, for these reasons sup-
port the Bill. He objected to the making of laws by the
Commissioners, in their own chambers, and considered that
the Ecclesiastical Commissioners had failed to give satisfaction
in this respect, notwithstanding the Attorney. General hod
quoted that body as an instance of success in the forming of
general rules. He saw no reason, therefore, why any
alteration in the laws relating to the poor should not
come under the revision of the House.—( near, hear. )
He did not think it would be even approved of in this House
to make measures without due consideration of the circum-
stances of these measures. The great benefit of this measure.
asserted by the advocates of the measure was, that it would
unite all classes ; but the present law, did not effect
that object. The petition he presented was in conformity
with these views. If they persisted they would render the
measure most unpopular. He would propose the second read-
ing of the Bill.
Sir G. GREY said that he would trouble the House
with a few observations on what had fallen from the Hon.
Gentleman. The Hon. Gentleman said that his greatest
difficulty was founded on the amount of new patronage which
this Bill bestowed on the Government. His patriotism had
drawn him away from the sanatory considerations attached to
the Bill. But he could assure the Hon. Member

IRISH POOR-LAW BILL.
HOUSE OF LORDS.—MAY 14.
List of Division in the House of Lords on the motion to
agree to Lord Monteagle's Amendment for Limiting the
Duration of the Irish Poor-law Bill.
0111VTENT.
DUKE. EARLS. BARONS.
Richmond Mountcashell Abinger
MABQtaSES. Itanfurly Berwick
Downshira Bosse Bolton
Ormonde Stradbroke Castlemaine
LABIA. Winchilsea Colchester
Bathurst Roden De Ros
Dartmouth Burlington Northwick
Clare Wicklow Rayleigh
, Desart Redesdale
Ellenborough viscottNTS.
Clancarty Southampton
Fitzwilliam Stanley
Enniskillen Combermere Templemore
Leven ARCHBISHOP. Tenterden
Lonsdale Dublin Wrottesley
Lucan BISHOP. Blayncy
Malmesbury Gloucester Boston

NON-CONTENT.

. DUKES. EARLS. . BARONS.
Bedford I - . Galley:ay Cottenham
St. Albans Ripon Erskine
MARQUISES. St. Germans Foley
Lansdowne Shaftesbury Hastings
Conyngham Glasgow Montfort
Northampton Waldegrave Strafford
Clanricarde Yarborough Sudeley
Camden Zetland Wharncliffe
Citolmondeley Harewood Kianaird
Morley Manners
EARLS. :VISCOUNT. Kenyon
Auckland Sydney Mostyn
Chichester BARONS. BISHOPS.
Clarendon Beaumont Peterborough
Ciao william Byron Lichfield
Devon Bruce Lincoln
Ducie Camoys Worcester
Fortescue Campbell Hereford
Granville Carrington St. Asaph
Grey Colborne Ely

that the patronage of the Crown would, in a pe-
cuniary, as well as official point of view, be dimi
nished instead of any thing else, for several offices which
had before existed, were now abolished, and of this he was
anxious to inform the Hon. Member, in order to allay his
anxieties ; because he seemed to think that we had better go
on with filth and fever, rather than create a few new officers,

PAIRS.
Earl of Charley'lle Bishop of Durham
. Earl of Orf rd Lord P .rtman
'Viscount Lake. Earl of Denbigh
Marquis of Ailsa. Lord Beauvale
Earl of Erne Lord Vivian
Earl of Orkney Earl of Ilchester
Marquis of Exeter Earl Spencer
Earl of Munster Viscount Clifden
Earl of Bradford Lord Dinorben
Marquis of Abercorn Lord Dacre
Lord Wa!singhans
Earl of Sheffield
Bishop of Chester
Bishop of Exeter
Duke of Newcastle Marquis of Headfort
Earl of Limerick Earl Verulam
Lord Sondes Lord Glenelg
Marquis of Anglesey
Viscount Beresford
Lord De Lisle Lord Crewe
Marquis of Ely Earl of Leicester
Lori Ashburton Earl Minto
Earl Delawarr Earl Fitzhardinge
Earl Digby Bishop of Salisbury
Earl of Eldon Earl Camperdown
Duke of Manchester Marquis of Winchester
Lord Wynford Lord Lilford
Earl of Cardigan Duke of Norfolk
Earl of Tankerville Earl Cornwallis
Lord Saltoun Earl of Fingall
Lord Willoughby d'Eresby Bishop of London
Earl of Wilton Duke of Roxburgh
Duke of Beaufort Lord Langdale
Earl Nelson Earl of Effingham

Earl of Somers Lord Lyttelton
Viscount Canterbury Bishop of Rochester
Marquis of Ailesbury Earl of Ellesmere
Earlof Warwick Bishop of Oxford
Earl of Longford Bishop of St. David's
Lord Brougham Earl Craven
. _ _

Lord Middleton

Earl of Sefton

who are to inspect the health of towns. The same objec-
tions, however, did not extend to the Prisons' Bill. But

he was surprised that the Hon. Gentleman did not support
the measure, seeing so few points of difference existed between '
them. He (Mr. Bankes) supported the Act of 1834. He
was also in favour of a central authority, and considered that
they should be represented in that House. Holding such
opinions, he was surprised that he had not voted for the Govern-
ment, instead of for the Member for Knaresborough.—
( Hear, hear.) Her Majesty's Government had come
to the opinion that it was better to have a responsible body re
presented in that House, than have them suffer from the im-
perfect vindications of the officers of the Crown. They were
also told that it was too late in the session to intro-
duce such a Bill. He was very happy to hear that it
was late in the session ; but he would ask, looking back on the
mode in which the last three months had been spent, was
it possible that it could have been introduced earlier ? however,
the Hon. Gentleman had told them to withdraw the Bill, and
that there was plenty of time to introduce another.—( Hear,
hear.) But whether it be late or early his Noble Friend near
him, had stated in the early part of tke session, the principles
on which the measure had been founded, so that there hail
been plenty of time for consideration.
Colonel SIBTHORP said that. if the Hon. Member for
Knaresborough divided the House upon his amendment, he
would be very happy to vote with him. The Bill did nothing
more than change the names of parties, and they had no inti-
mation of what was to be the salary of the president or in-
spectors—whom he would rather call spies—nor even
of their number. When once a Bill received the
second reading in that House, it might be considered a.
booked—(Laughter.) A few Members attended the Committee
This was known to every Member, even of one year's standing
in the House; he, therefore, protested against the Bill, which
was one got up at the latter end of the session ; it was an oil
captandum measure, such as was the Health of Towns Bill, for
the Government only desired to have the people say—
" See what luminous fellows we are."—(Loud laughter.)
He had seen so many strange things go on—( Laughter)—that
he believed Government patronage was only intended for the
purpose of giving rise to a host of needy expectations—
(Laughter.) He (Colonel Sibthorp) knew a good deal of life
—( Great laughter)—he heard out of dours a great deal of hard
times, and a scarcity of money, and, as an Hon Friend re-
minded him, of Exchequer bills at a discount.—(Hear, hear. )
And they were to have a Commis sinner. Was he a guardian
to sit down with a fellow—a Government inspector or spy—
(Great laughter)—who came down to see what they did—
( Roars of laughter)—a fellow who would talk to him—
(Laughter)—and say, " I'm your inspector. If you disobey
me, woe betide you." Ale! what a fellow, sent down in
Government pay—a Whew dressed in Government livery.—
( Roars of laughter.) He (Colonel Sibthorp) had a sort of
honest pride—(Hear, hear',—that as a poor-law guardian,
and as a Member of that House, he was above the
fellows that Government might send down to
ru!e them. He considered that the Bill which
the Government now attempted to bring before them, was
another of a piece with th, Health of Towns Bill, which
exempted London and St. Giles's, and Marylebone ; but ;he
Noble Lord at the head of the Government told them that to
touch on London was dangerous ground.—( Laughter. ) The
Ministry dined there—( Continued laughter)—and therefore
the city of London was holy ground. He should support the
motion of his Hon. Friend Mr. Ferrand, because he was one
of those persons much wanted in that House. He was an
honest man.

Lord Favez sham Duke of Buccleuch
Viscount Strangtord Lord Gardner
Duke of Cleveland Bishop of Ripon
Earl of liaddington Earl Bowls
Lord Gage Lord Churchill
Earl of Kinnoul Earl Howe
Earl Egmont Viscount Falkland
Duke of"Mentrose Marquis of Westminster

_.....
List of Peers who did not vote either way for Lord Mont-
eagle's Amendment on the 6th inst., but who voted on
Friday last, either in persun or by proxy, or who paired off
in favour of the Marquis of Lansdowne's motion for the
Bill to be permanent.
DUKE. Chichester BISHOP.
Buccleuch Cornwallis Salisbury
MARQUISES. VISCOUNT. LORDS.
Camden Melbourne Arundell
ChOhnOndell BISHOPS. De Mauley
EAR London Denman
Howe Lincoln Hastings
Denbigh Rochester Cloward de Walden
Fitzhardlnge Worcester Willoughby de Broke
h Wincester
Leicester Walsingham
Sefton Chester Sherborne
Onslow Ely Alvanley
Beauchamp Oxford Gardner
Lindsey Ripon Petre
Mount Edgcumbe Peterborough Strathallan
Powis St. Asaph
The proxies of the Earl of Abingdon and Lord Bavning
were, through a mistake, not extered. If proxies had been
called for, there ware entered for the Government 62, and 44
against, the majority would consequently have been 30.

NEW ZEALAND,
The following is an extract from the letter of an
officer who has come home in her Majesty's steam-
vessel Driver:—

" Portsmouth, May 14.
" We left New Zealand on tha 28th of January, and
have had a good passage of 107 days, considering the
great distance and various climates to be passed through.
We came by Cape Horn, and have the honour, I be-
lieve, of being the first steam vessel which has circum-
navigated the globe. We stopped six days at Rio de
Janeiro, and have a mail from Rio de la Plate; I do not
know the p4rticulars.
" I arrive in better health than I had any reason
ever to expect. The climate of New Zealand has been
of essential service, not only to me, but to all our officers
and crew. _

" The colony was gradually progressing towards im-
provement under the able and judicious management of
Governor Grey. The natives were peaceably inclined.
fleki and about 200 of his followers went to the Bay of
Islands to remove the bones of their forefathers, or those
of some old heathen chief; but the Governor bad his
eye on him, and to Heki's astonishment he found her
Majesty's steam• vessel Driver, with the Governor acd
200 men, waiting for him. As Governor Grey most pro-
perly did not visit Heki he went away with his fol-
lowers quite chopfallen. Rangahiti in the south was in
the hills.

Mr. CHRISTIE moved the adjournment of the debate,
which was agreed to.
LOAN DISCOUNT BILL.

Mr. SPOONER wished to know when the Government
were prepared to take the Loan Discount Bill for the third
reading.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER proposed to
take it for Thursday next.
Mr. WAKLEY said that the country expected a very
different poor-law from that which had been introduced, and
he thought, therefore, that time should ibe given for an
expression of feeling upon the subject. He considered that
the Loan Discount Bill should be taken first, and the Poor-law
Bill afterwards. •

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that with regard to the Loan
Discount Bill, it was desirable to get it through the House
before the Whitsun holidays. He believed that no opposition
was offered to the Bill on principle, however much might be
objected to it in detail, and he should therefore wish to
take it as early as possible.
SCOTCH REGISTRATION BILL.
In answer to a question from Mr. Oswald relative to the
Registration (Scotland) Bill.
The LORD ADVOCATE said that the Bill would be
brought forward at an early period.
Mr. LOCKHART regretted that in accordance with the
universally expressed opinion of the Scottish people, the Bill
was not given np altogether.
Mr. FOX MAULE trusted it would not be given up, be-
cause when he recollected the Prisons Bill, which he had him-
self introduced, he feared that the only objection which existed
was on account of a little expense.
Mr. FORBES said that great opposition was manifested to
the mea,ure in the county which he represented.
Mr. F. MACKENZIE regretted that it was the intention
of lion. Gentlemen opposite to go on with the 1)i I.
He would not deny that the present system of legislation in
Scotland was imperfect, but he did maintain that a far less cum-
bersome, and a far less expensive system could be di.-
cuvered. He should, therefore, move that this Bill
be committed that day six months.
The galleries were then cleared for a division, but none took
place, and, on our return to the gallery, we found
Mr. C. BRUCE, protestirig against the principle of the Bill
as it at present stood. He thought this Bill had been brought
out at an unseasonable hour, and the further discussion upon
it ought, therefore, to be postponed.
Lord J RUSSELL said he would consent to take the
disdis-
cussion upon the Bill oils the 31st of May, if there was time
Mr. iFonooanßEM,?nldiaAy
c follKoEw‘;inzgiE
was
for doing so, after disposing of the Irish Poor-law, which
would then have come down from the Lords. Should it
happen there would not be time, he would propose to take the
glad the Noble Lord
had made that eunce
in-
ducement for him tos withdraw
because it afforded a sufficient
thdravv his amendment.
The Bill then went
through Committee.

" The natives in the neighbourhood of Auckland and
Wellington were actively employed on the roads, and
squaring stones for buildings, bridges, &c. A native
police bas been established, and is a most effective force;
savings' banks have been established, and the deposits,
European and native, were considerable. The revenue
had likewise been on the increase; in fact, the character
of the natives in a few years will be quite changed. They
supply both Auckland and Wellington with potatoes,
onions, Indian corn, fish, and poultry; also, firewood.
1 The natives are asking for resident magistrates to live
amongst them; they cheerfully submit to English laws
in preference to their own. Several cases were lately
tried at Auckland, and decided in their favour; this has
given them the greatest confidence in the Governor. In
another case, a native was fined twenty-five sovereigns
for property removed from a coasting vessel. I have
seen him pay down the cash. He was himself the owner
of a small vessel.
" In the district of Wakani, in Cook's Straits, the na-
tives have now large fields of wheat, Indian corn, pota-
toes, onions, and other vegetables, and pigs, which have
been valued at 4,000/. Sheep farming was on the in-
crease about the Straits and Middle Island. Most ex-
cellent beef and mutton was to be purchased at Welling-
ton at 6d. per lb.
" I regret to say that Governor Grey bad been un-
well, he was suffering from something like ague or the
hay fever; and the spear wound in his thigh was occa-
sionally painful. He was, however, able (with his lady)
to go on board her Majesty's ship Driver, and pay her
, captain and officers a farewell visit, previous to their de-
parture for England.
~ The Inflexible steamer arrived at Auckland on the
25th of January, she had touched the ground in Sydney
harbour, and damaged her forefoot. The Castor frigate
was at Auckland; the Calliope and Racehorse at Wel-
lingt,)n and Cook's Straits. Reuparaha, the celebrated
chief of Porirua, was still a prisoner on board her Ma-
k sty's ship Calliope. It was rumoured that he would
be liberated, as no direct charge could be brought
against him; should he be liberated, it will be on con-
dition that he gives up all claim to Middle Island, an 3
that some of the neighbouring chiefs will be responsible
for his future conduct."
_____

--ter
CORN FROM AUSTRIA.—The Austrian Observer of
the Bth instant publishes an Imperial decree, prohibiting
the Px port of corn from the Austrian dominions for five
Math II
GREENOCK. -- Yesterday (Thursday) there was
launched from the building-yard of Messrs. Robert Steele
and Co., the eminent ship-builders of this town, one of the
four new steamers that were to be built in the Clyde for the
British and North American Steam Packet Company (Cu-
nard's line). This noble vessel is 1,826 tons, new measure-
ment, and is about two or three hundred tons larger than
any other in the splendid fleet belonging to the same com-
pany. The length of keel and fore rake is 41 feet, and
breadth of beam 38 feet.--North British Mail.