The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-05 00:00:00

If I;
THE suN I,Or4DON„ FRIDAY EVENING, MARCH 5, I'M,.
_

in no instance had the Emigration Board prepeunded
any scheme of sound emieration, though he admit'ed
they had been most useful' in preventing unsound emi-
gration. In fact, the board was nothing more .than a
mere referee of the Colonial-office, and might as well
havlre its offices at the Colonial-office as in Park-street.
the subject
c,, of
Canada, who Lad paid muds attention to
emigre tier, had divided the subj, et into
three pats--the way in a hie's emigrants should be itt-
late.d to leave this country ; their treatment during their
Voyage ; and the manner in which they should be re-
ceived when they reached their destination ;—all of
which were most important questions. In his (Mr. V.
• opinion, the present system was deficient in
each of these points. First, no proper information was
46Preatl throughout the country with respect to emigre-
'lnn, so that those desirous of bring informed on the
/inhject had no proper means of obtainiug it. It wne all
v
well to say that the Colonial-office was ready to
rep y to n.ll letters which were received by that depart-
ment requesting information, but they (eight to freely
;t1 Promulgate information on the subject throughout the
°Le country, so that parties desirous of emigrating
to 'Oat know where to seek it. Private companies wish-
Initg 10 'Promote emigration, appointed agents in all
like town, in the localities from which parties were
lY to emigrate, to afford information. This
what the 'Government was deficient in. These
companies not only allladed the utmost information, but
tut forward, in addition, the most delusive statements,
thZr.tne purpose of tempting people to emigrate under
it* ausices;
should i.p side by side with which the Government
correct information, so that persons might
.11.0 deceived. In fact, there was nip reason why an
-g eta should not make a circuit through the country for
the
Purpose of ascertaining
64f,a•
,ting, and for the the purties desirous of emi-
purpose of affording them ample
u"u correct information ; in addition to whom, ha saw
fho reasert why they
should not appoint agencies in all
ea: Principal towns, for the purpose of dispensing infor-
mation, which would be attended with but little expense.
ee " Sydenhana saw the necessity of appointing Go-
ia,,r,orlilhaat agents, as he was of opinion that a Govern-
agent ought to accompany every emigrant ship
Greyri to the north of America, and the present Earl
e was in favour of erecting villages in Canada for
he" found
of emigrants ; but lie revoked his plan, because
01,-t'°und that no private company felt disposed to carry
fall, that
a plan. It appeared from the statement of Mr.
that Getman emigrants were better cared for than
daring of this country, as they were plentifully provided
joireing their voyage with animal food, bread, beer, lime
whie' and other necessaries during their voyages,
Pf ;re, Were generally longer than those per-
utaf;:ei by British vessels. Mr. Mills, who had
a pamphlet on " Colonization," and who was
Can ,•
ennversant with the subject, as he went out to
wi-e-kta: with some of his father's labourers from War-
age -t'g'ire, Pointed out the great advantage of haring
thi,ll-1-"' There were but ten agents at the outports of
170
emigrated
and Ireland. By a return it appeared that
lost from Southampton, and 542 from Hull,
no,f Year ; but there was no agent at either of these
rt;4• Last year 1,056 emigrated from Galway, 1,108
forT Waterford, and 814 from Newcros., near Water-
d+ tuh Yet there was no agent at either of them. Owingi
pa, e want of agents, prosecutions for infractions of t
si-senger laws were continually taking place.
causes had recently occurred in Canada, and 13 in
e ar,..l:llawick. Mr. Mills stated that mere than
barkeoris of the emigrants of this country em-
ed
at Liverpool, yet that town had but one
eilgetiht, Who, even with the aid of a clerk, could
a °lt„-IY
to
possibility, transact the business that was
to esueu to him in a proper manner, as it was necessary
t attend all the ships that left, and frequently a great
t tazber left in one morning. 'Then a careful superin-
e",,enceduring the voyaae could not fail to conduce to the
Cron of the emigrants,' and save expense, by prevent-
ti,' those infractions to which he had referred. In 1841
th`ua Noble Lord at the head of the Govern-
ment spoke favourably of affording the utmost
facilities and comforts to the emigrants ; he
to the Noble Lord would adhere to those opinions
bn 1847. The superintendence ought to be performed
7 medical officers, who were in the habit of receiving
aP°ht 2001. a year for the discharge of ditties of a
%similar nature. The worst part was the reception of
te? emigrants when they arrived at their destination. In
nis respect the arrangements of the Government were
1.1.105 t deficient. It was acknowledged in Australia that
the best mode of dealing with the emigrants on their
arrival was to disperse them ; and what was wanted was
some person to point out to them what was best to be
done, and where it was likely that they would find cm-
Ployment, and consequently, a subsistence. The want of
,such an agent entailed much misery on emigrants as
they arrived in strange land, almost ignorant of its cus-
totos and as to the best way to proceed to turn their
labour or their capital to the best advantage. Great
advantages would accrue by the establishment of such
agents in both Australia and Canada. Great expense
Would not be thus entailed upon the country by the adop-
tion of such a plan, as few persons might perform very
important offices for a large number. Certainly the
three points he had raised were well worthy the most
serious consideration of the Emigration Board.
The next subject was one of considerable delicacy,
but it was a most important one ; he
Meant female emigration. It would be found that the
greatest disparity prevailed in the number of the sexes
in many of our colonies. In Van Diemen's Land there
Were 40,788 males, and but 18,114 females ; and many
')f the other colonies presented similar results. The
'jou. Member then read several long extracts to show
the very great deficiency of female immigrants in the
colonies. Mrs. Chisholme, a lady of great experience
tiPon these points, stated in her evidence that a good
Way to remedy this defect would be the sending of a
number of young women, under proper guardianship.
Ile did not see why Government should not appoint a
commission to control emigration ; they were appointing
commissions upon every other subject—upon the poor-
laws and upon t ailways. He did not think that it should
be left under the entire control of rho emigration board.
There was nothing in the scheme which he proposed
Which, in his opinion, could meet with objections from
the Chancellor of the Exchequer. ILe did not ask for
Millions—he only sought a few thou,and pounds in
order to establish a more complete and extended system
of emigration. He desired that there should be some
Method which would ensure to the emigrant the ad-
vantage of good advice and guidance as to where he
should settle, and how devote his labour.
Mr. MACKINNON seconded the resolution, in order to be
enabled to say a few words to the House. Any person who
connected himself with a colonial board, became immediately
lag:tressed with the idea that emigration was a
sovereign panacea for all evils. He objected to
arty interference by the Government respecting this question.
"6 Could not see any advantage which would arise from the
rat:dims of the Right Hon. Gentleman. Certainly, if at a small
I,,arnse of 2,0001. or 3,00. V., his suggestion could be carried
effect, it would be of utility to attempt it, but if any greater
vfirl? were required, he thought that the less of the public money
s eh was expended the better; and he thought it would be
uetter that any advance should not be made to encourage emi-
retion. He thanked the House for its attention to him while
had addressed it, and although he did not agree with the
Prriple of the motion he should second it.—(Laughter. )
tijthought it r',LEF ROY would not detain the House any length of
e" 'at he as anxious to say fe a w words upon thi subject.
thendesirable that while Ireland was suffering as it
relie:" from want of employment, any measure which would
eit from its over-population would be of benefit. lie
til,:ratted the principle of the Honourable Member's proposi-
f!-ir
it encouraging voluntary emigration, and he thought
would be one of the most productive measures
that could be adopted by the Government. The emigration, if
releieraged, would not-be felt as a banishment, but rather as a
le and a benefit. He trusted that if the resolutions of the
Merph •
ke,t b • • et did not receive any material support, the state-
tall the Y which he had accompanied it, would go forth to, and
soaatteution of her Majesty's Government to, the subject ;
eve`nn, t if not immediately adopted, some measures might be
to
au;lnly taken to assist the starving population to emigrate
tor where good treatment and employment would be se-
ed to them
M
Mr. K ERR said that he felt it necessary to thank the Hon.
his
tuber for proposing these resolutions to the House ; for, in
t°Pinion, they were admirably calculated for the relief of the
Tresent want of employment arising from over-population.
he Government were at present employing 665,000 men in
land at an enormous expense, and all that burden on the
i"Wary might be obviated by the adoption of some such mea-
SateS as those proposed by the Hon. Member.
Mr. HALVES could assure the Right Hon. Gentleman
who brought forward this motion, that he had not one word
of complaint to urge against the way in which he had brought
it forward. He thought, however, that his Right Hon. Friend
rather under-estimated the exertions of the Board of Emigra-
tion. Its duties were rather to assist than to stimulate emi-
gration, and he should be enabled to chew the House that the
duties imposed on that board had been performed ably and
zealously by the gentlemen composing it. He would venture
to say that, even if Parliament were to grant the vote pro-
Posed by the Hon. Member, it would be almost impossible to
apply it successfully, unless it was employed on the payment
of the passages of the emigrants, and that was a mode of using
Iwhich the Right Hon. Gentleman would hardly recommend.
,„.
House would perhaps consider for a moment with re-
Terence to what the Board had done, the number of emi-
raa's it had been the means of quietly and successfully
tending out of the country. There was such a
'stern of active superintendence at the port of
to and of landing, that the emigrant might be said
tibrf uner a total sperintndece durin his whole voae.
ing t dhe last tenu years,e then g number of emigrants senytg to
Australia, amounted to 20,000, sent under the management of
rsae"inee. and 28,000 under its immediate superintendence ;
talog a total of 48,000 during the last ten years. The mor-
"Y board of the different vessels had also been decreased
e urn the amount of 5 per cent. in the first ships, to a half per
in the latest ships. He would also refer to the emigration
Coolies to the West Indies, which had been most actively
carried on, and the mortality was considerably decreasing in firstfor instance. His Right Hon. Friend had hardly, there-
done justice to the labours of the commissioners, con-
ilueetting the large returns whi Housead jest given to the House.
hira also state to the the enormous extent of
lheuntary emigration, which had proceeded during
ho last ten years under the superintendence of the
; Mmissioners alone. The account of voluntary emigrants,
rota the year 1837 to the year 1846 inclusive, amounted to the
enortnous number of 856,392 persons, of whom 700,000 had
gene to America alone. *Now he would venture to say there
• was so large a mass of people taken out of this country,
la
nn so little inconvenience and expense, under a system of
Perintendence, as those had been under the voluntary
'Nem.
I 1 HON. MEMBER here moved that the House be counted.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but there being
f4rss"l
r Members present, the House resumed.
• HAWES, in continuation of his address, read extracts
elansteveral returns of the Colonial-office, showing the great
1.0
believed a g Lsthey of
the voluntary system of emigration. With
,eegar e to the proceedings of the Emigration Board
had done the best in their power to make the
agents under their control as efficient as possible, and to give the
greatest protection to those intending to emigrate. The Hon.
enmer made his motion, it would appear, in reference to the
present
ernernaney, and in order to ease it by a more exten-
sive
ystem of emigration. On that head he (Mr. Hawes)
eerueuakt inform him, that every endeavour would be made to in-
the the r ream of voluntary emigration, and to effect that,
pool a would he greater efficiency given to the agency at Liver-
°f _ 11C1 other ports. Respecting any comprehensive scheme
etr,
pre migration,
rhi:t rd a
to give
the Government, he had no doubt, would be
give every consideration to any that might be
forward which appeared of a practical and useful elm-
Bat whatever was done for the advancement of emigra-

tion, he would beg leave to observe, that one of the very first
things they would have to do, in order to make it
su •cessful, would be to give a free constitution—a good
system of self government, to every colony they
might establish, towards which the recent charter given to
N, w Zealand, he might remark, was a step in that direction.
There was another point to eloch he would beg leave to make
serne observations. The Hon. Member had advised the ser.e-
ieg .4f agents into every parish in the country, and the eir-
cioatine of tracts and publicat ions, to excite e feeling in favour
of emigration. That was a course which he ( Mr. Ilsw es)
could not consent to, for, independent of the expense of such a
plan, it would be a must dangerous and unsatisfactory pro-
ceeding. He hail no desire directly to negative the motion of
the Hon. Member, whom he believed to be actuated by the
best intentions, and he would, therefore, content himself by
moving the previous question.
After a few words from Mr. FOSTER, which were inaudible
in the gallery.
lir. BOW RING expressed himself that the system of
emigration, hitherto carried on with our colonies, was of a
most unsatisfactory character, He hoped that in future the
Government would give full effect to the expression of the
lion. Member (Mr. Ilawes) that free constitutions should be
given to the colonies. Ile would ask the Hon. Member what
were the intentions of the Government in this respect?
Mr. HAWES excu•eil himself from giving any answer to
the question at present. He would only remark that at the
beginning of last session a Noble Lord on the other side of
the House explained the plan which was intended to be taken
in respect to the celonies, and the first fruits of it was seen in
the charter which had been granted to-New Zealand
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN considered the Government had
not shown itself hitherto snffictently impressed with the im-
portance of emigration, arid hence the arrangements made in
reference to it were of the most defective character. In the
beginning of the session, he called the attention of her
Majesty's Government to the necessity of the Emigration
Board issuing information in a circular every year, at the be-
ginning of theseason to intending emigrants, with regard to the
best places of location, rates of wages, &c. ; hut nothing hail
been done to effect such a desis able object. He quite agreed
with the Hon. Member for Northampton, respecting the ap-
pointenent of agents, as he considered there ought not be a
single outport without an emigration agent. They were ap-
proachine a crisis in emigration, and they should be prepared
with efficient arrangements for it. Another point to which he
wished to direct the attention of the Government was, the
greater facilities which might be given to the Board of Guar-
dians to assist emigration from Ireland, and if agencies could
be formed in the coonies to transport emigrants to the places
where their labour was required, it would be a great step in
the right direction. He thought that this desirable good might
he obtained by a Government advance to the same extent as
the capital furnished by the emigrant himself.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he endeavour to
reply to the observations of the Hon. Member. The Hon.
Gentleman had asked, in the first place, whether they could
form an estimate of the number of persons who had emigrated
into the British North American Colonies. It was impossible
to give any estimate of the kind; and it was because they
were unable to form this estimate that, after a great deal of
consideration, they had thought it unadvisable to undertake
the payment of the passage-money for intending emigrants.
Under the operation of the former system, the great number
of the emigrants arriving in Canada were left destitute in such
towns as Montreal ; they endured a vast amount of suffering,
and were, therefore, proportionably disappointed, after having
crossed the seas to better their condition. There was also this
further evil attending the system, that it originated and kept
alive an indisposition to emigration among those left at home.
It was, therefore, in the opinion of the Government, better
that emigration should be carried out by individual exertion,
assisted as it might be by voluntary assistance from landlords,
and from other private sources. The Hon. Gentleman knew
full well that a very large sum —he believed above 20a,0001.
had been transmitted from persons resident in the colonies to
friends in this country, for the purpose of assisting them to
emigrate. This was a very satisfactory proof that great exer-
tions could be made without any aid from Government. But
the Honourable Gentleman asked further, whether it was
the opinion of the Government that the Emigration
tax should be continued. At first sight this tax was an appa-
rent obstruction to emigration. Ile did not think, however,
that it was a real obstruction, arid, therefore, he considered
that it should be continued. The object of the tax was a praise-
worthy one. The House was aware that many emigrants ar-
rived at Quebec in a most pitiable condition, who were unable
to go up into the country either from physical inability, or the
want of funds ; while, at the same time, there was a sufficient
demand for labour in Western Canada. The tax itself did not
exceed ss. a head ; and one of its objects was to give assist-
ance to such individuals ; another object was to provide hospi-
tals for the sick. The consequence had been, that the emigra-
tion reports had been very satisfactory. He found that the
emigration in the year 1g46 into North America
was 125,678; into Australia, 2,347 ; into other
places, 1,786, making a total of 129,821. The Honour-
able Member was not perhaps aware that Gov& rnment
voted a small sum annually for the purpose of giving assistance
to emigrants who desired to reach the interior of the country.
He did not know what the precise amount was, but it was riot
proposed teomdiminish thewon
would
my
rtoheiese ydeaurt,}onanad imf
oitrestielutl 1 p-
e..,aled
scale than usual, it might be deemed expedient to increase it.
He was strongly of opinion that if they created an artificial
great n
would
rattl national rat arl
sdke s
oi rfe s
ot h ai
nt
unnodwa
tei
nxg-
isthsttioedmseuflcouorsloiennmieaisdgdtrhaittaiitoonntl'iteotrhteheseyidents would find it difficult to subsist.
He was informed that in the state of New York it was under
deliberation whether they should not impose a tax with the
view of putting a check on the present tide of emigration.
For these reasons he was of opinion that no assistance from
Government would be required.
Mr. HOPE thought that the Board of Emigration would
have been sufficiently active if they had had money enough, and
unless they were to institute some, large and extended system
of Government emigration, assisted from, and supported by the
public funds, they would not carry out their objects to the ex-
tent so much desired by the Right lion. Gentleman.
Mr. CHARLES BULLER rose to observe that the re-
marks which he had made on the occasion referred to, was
simply that, with reference to the colonisation of North Ame •
rice, the association had acted on the hope that they could
rectify a great defect, and one which arose out of the fact that
its operations had been impeded by the majority of the
public lands which had passed front the hands of the Govern-
ment into the hands of private individuals. His Noble Friend
had stated before the commencement of the session, that, in
his opinion, it made not one tittle of difference as to how
these monies were to be applied, so that they were used for the
purposes of the Commission. But a material point arose
as to how far this would affect the people of Ireland.
and he believed that if these resources had been funded
that the system might have succeeded, and that it would
be poss ble to found British colonies in any part of the world.
Now, no one was more desirous of promoting colonisation, but
he believed, for his 0 n part, that a great mistake was made en
this subject. There was at the present moment two great ob-
stacles to carrying out the plan of colonisation ; the first was,
that no sufficient means had been devised by the Legislature
for carrying out this system of colonisation, so as to enable
emigrants to go out ; the second was, that if they did go out,
there was no land fund in existence for providing
resources for the emigrants. In Upper Canada, where
there was the largest and fittest block of fertile land unoccupied
in the world—but of that immense block by far the greater part
had been granted to absentee proprietors, and out of 17,000,000
acres of the finest land in that province, not more than
6,C00 acres remained in the possession of the Crown—
all the rest had been jobbed away. Then,
again, in Prince Edward's Island, which, from its geographical
position, for the fertility of its soil, and for the salubrity of
its climate, offered one of the very finest fields in the whole
world for extensive colonisation from its insular pesition as
well as its relative position with respect to Great Britain. The
United States and Canada offered the best prospects for com-
mercial intercourse. There were in the hands of the public an
extensive tract of upwards of a million of acres of excellent
land which, at the present moment, were only supporting
about a population of 12.000 inhabitants, and that 12,000 of
the most stagnant, unintellectual, and unprogressive
community in the world, and yet this extensive province that
had thus been left to stagnate had been granted to a number of
people who had never been in America, and who never in-
tended to go there, and yet it presented the noblest opportunity
for colonisation that could possibly be conceived. But
if they wished to look at a country which possessed
the greatest opportunity for colonisation--one which was
boundless in extent, admirably situated for commercial rela-
tions, and likely in every way to strengthen the relations of
the empire, they would turn to the country of which the Cape
of Good Hope was the boundary, but they all knew what was the
reason which prevented the occupation of that country for the
purposes of colonisation, in the proper sense of the word—that
was the savage war that was being carried on upon the frontier
of the British possessions. Then there were the colonies of
Australia and New Zealand, to which the attention of the pre-
sent commissioners had been so energetically turned, and, could
it have been tarried out, colonisation and sending out emi-
grants on a grand plan would have been the ress It. But to
this there was now an obstacle. Then the only plan was, to
encourage a large emigration to the United State.; and Canada,
and to this matter the commissioners had directed their most
earnest attention, He owned that the Commission had been
placed in the hands of men who, ho did not mean to say had
not a full knowlege of our colonial empire, or who were not
desirous of promoting the cause of colonisation, or were not
aware of its manifest importance, but he would say, that the
report
suffi-
ciently
entertained t he
by Emigration Cm
the
Colonial-office,
~ils-sio
~ffinceer,s iandd not
that bneoe n
system
had been adopted by the Government worthy of the British
colonies—no system worthy of our ancestors, or such as our
ancestors had successfully carried into effect, and they must,
therefore, look in some other direction. lle would, therefore,
repeat, that in the very commencement of their 'system they
must proceed in a different way, for they must in the first
place provide the means for the emigrant to go out ; and they
must in the second, front the disposal of landi, provide the
funds for conveying the emigrant to the most distant parts of
the world.— ( Cheers. )
Sir WALTER JAMES was sorry to hear that the only
sum to be voted for the purposes of emigration was the paltry
sum of 5,000/., while he saw that the sum of 8,000,000/. had
been voted for Ireland during the present year, and
10,000,0001. altogether had been granted for the relief of
He hoed the Noble Lord only intended
that country. p
to limit the amount of the grant. to the present year,
hdt;ilsecrriapettionnf
of food, they must at the same
for if the people were to obttailmne
nut the, funds be a
arechciitheear
expense must be incurred. But would f
wages for their work, and to do this he was aware that the
the removal of
great deal better expended on some system
the House
subject, which he could assure the Noble Lord anti
the Irish poor. Many pamphlets had been oprublished on the
of Commons that some of thetn detailed many grave anti
startling facts well worthy of the consideration of both, for it
was his firm belief that one-half of the population will die of
famine. Under these circumstances, then, he thought that it
would be only wise in the Noble Lord to grant this miserable
sum of 5,001)1. for the present year, for if he did not it would
certainly foster the notion that was now already widely spread-
ing, that the Government had not done all they could to relieve
the distresses of the Irish population.
Mr. HOPE explained that he had only desired to reduce the
expenses of emigration.
Mr. VERNON SMITH in reply said that he would not
occupy much of the attention of the House, nor would he,
under present circumstances, press his motion to a division.
He was quite ready to acknowledge the zeal and ability of his
Noble Friend, and the attention which he had paid to the
objects of the commission, but when the attention of the
Ileuse had been drawn to this subject in 1831, and again in
1836, and subsequsntly in 1841, it certainly was his impression
that some effectual steps would be taken for carrying out the
opinions which had been so generally expressed.
The motion was then withdrawn.
CRACOW.
Mr. HUME rose to move the adoption of the resolutions of
which he had given notice, viz. : —l. That this House, con-
sidering the faithful observance of the General Act of Congress,
or treaty of Vienna, on the 9th day of June, 1815, as the
basis of the peace and welfare of Europe views with alarm and
indignation the incorporation of the free city of Cracow, and
of its territory, into the empire of Austria, by virtue of a con-
vention entered into at Vienna, on the 6th day of November,
1846, by Russia, Prussia, and Austria, in manifest violation
of the said treaty. 2. That it appears, by returns laid before
Patliament, that there has already been paid from the British
Treasury towards the principal and for the interest of the
debt, called Russo-Dutch Loan, between the years 1816 and
1846, both inclusive, the sum of 40,490,750 florins, equal to
3,374,479/. sterling money ; and that the liquidation of the
principal and interest of the remaining part of the loan, as

--- -
stipulated by— the Act 2d arid 3d of William the Fourth, I
cap. 81, will require further annual payments from the Bri- :
tish Treasury until the year 1915, amounting to 47,006,250
florins, equal to 3.917,11/. sterling money—making then
the aggregate payment 7.291,666'. ; and the average, for each
of the leo years, of 72,916/. 3. That the convention of the
16th day of November, 18.31, between his Majesty the King of
Great Britain and Ireland and the Emperor of all the Russias,
was made to i xplain the stipulations of the treaty between
Great Britsin, Buss:a, and the Netherlands, signed at Looder
en the 19th day of May, 1515, and included in the treaty of
Vienna ; and by that convention it was agreed by Great
Britain "to secure to Russia the payment of a portion of her
Dutch debt in consideration of the general arrar gements of the
Congress of Vienna, to which she had given her adhesion ;
arrangements which remain in full force. 4 That this
House is, therefore, of opinion, tl,at Russia having with-
drawn that adhesion, and those arrangements being, through
her ace, no longer in force, the payments from this country,
on account of that debt, should be lienci forth suspended.
In moving the adoption of these resolutions, and calling the at-
tention of the House to the subject of which he had given
novice, he trusted that it would net lose any of its importance
by the feebleness of the ability which he hail to bring to its
support. But yet, though it might in some degree suffer from
this cause, he could not consent any longer to postpone
consideration, and from introducing it to the House, on that
account. When towards the close of the last session he drew
the attention of the House to the subject of Cracow, it would
be recolected that he had stated that at that time that free
cite was held in military occupation by a Russo-Austrian
farce, and that it was likely to continuo to be so
held. Arid ha hail not done this for the mere
sent :try instance of the occupation of which he
-peke, for in 1831 the same violation of treaties had
heels committed, and military occupation of the city had been
retained for years. Attain, in 1836, the same circumstance
I.ad occurred, and then. also, the occupation had been retained
for years ; sad yet the Noble Lord at the head of the Foreign
Department had begged the house to give no cre-
dence to his statements, for that he was in possession
of better information than any which lie possessed, and had
asserted that the occupation would soon cease. A Noble Duke
in another place had also made the assertion that the occupation
would be only temporary; but what was the fact? Why, that
the first information which reached this country was, that the
who'e of the treaties had been violated. He had always found
that when we were parties to a treaty we always retained our
honour and kept our faith, but he found that when the three
Powers to whom he referred were parties they seldom either
kept honour or good faith. But it might be said that we were
now under different circumstances; for, respecting the occu-
pation of Cracow, they had the assertion in her Majesty's
speech at the commencement of the present session, that the
occupation of Cracow was a gross violation of the treaty
of Vienna, and that the infraction of that treaty was quite un-
justifiable on the part of Austria, Russia, and Prus-
sia. He trusted that he should not be niet by
the answer that he was limited in this inquiry by the position
of the foreign department, for here was a plain declaration of
the injustice of this annihilation of the free State of Cracow in
the spa ech of her Majesty, and she had ordered the papers and
documents respecting it to be placed on the table. He held
these papers in his hand, and if Hon. Members had perused
these papers as he had done, they would perceive that the first
alarm of this iniquity had been created as early as January or
February in last year, and that the notice that it was intended
to occupy Cracow by a military force had been given shortly
afterwards by Mr. Macginnis, and that explanations had been
demanded by the British Government. But he did not find that
any explanation of this act of injustice had been given by the
three Powers, and from Jan. to August no information whatever
hail been received, although it had been repeatedly called for
both by the Earl of Aberdeen and Lord Palmerston, and he
did think that some notice ought to have been given of the
intention of the three Powers thus to proceed. The letter of
Lord Aberdeen bore all the characteristics by which his
diplomatic correspondence was usually marked. The one he
alluded to was dated on the 25th of June, and it was distin-
guished by that coolness and caution, and prudence, which
were always prominently evident in the Noble Earl's corres-
pondence. It stated, with his usual caution, that he would
come to no sudden decision, bnt that he would suspend his
judgment with respect to Cracow, until he had all the diplo-
matic dispatches before him. He (Mr. Hume) found that the
first letter of Lord Palmerston was dated on the 4th of
August, and it forcibly declared that this occuprtion of Cracow
was clearly a gross violation of the treaty of Vienna.
But these papers were valuable, in so far as they put beyond
all doubt the real nature of this transaction, and any lion.
Member who had the patience to read two letters which the
papers contained on this subject, must be convinced that the
part Prince Metternich had taken reflected little credit upon
that nobleman. Prince Metternich, it would seem, had satis-
fied himself that Cracow was only an atom—a geographical
atom. Now when this geographical atom formed the subject
of a great negotiation, and occupied four or five articles of the
important treaty of Vienna, it did appear to him to be a laxity
of mind—a disregard of decorum—to apply such a terra to it;
and the word of honour of the man who had thus con-
sented to the annexation of Cracow and its territory was
not worth a rush.—( Hear, hear.) It would be remembered
that on the 11th of November, the Austrian Government
published the declaration to the world. That declaration was
to the effect that the State of Cracow, of its own free will and
accord, had consented to the annexation. Now there was not
one word of truth in all that, and the Noble Lord at the head
of the foreign department, had shown it to be false in the able
answer he had published upon the subject ; and he must be
allowed to repeat, that there was not a man, either within or
outside the walls of that House, who could find one word of
truth in the paragraph he had just read. The declaration
went on to say that Cracow had moreover violated the conditions
upon which its freedom was based. There was in that, also,
not one word of truth ; while again, it would be seen in the
last page of the return, that the Courts of Austria, Prussia, and
Russia, had discovered conspiracies in Cracow, which had never
existed. Still the declaration concluded by stating, that the
Court, after taking these circumstances into their considera-
tion, had deliberately, in accordance, as they believed, with all
existing treaties, determined to annex Cracow to the empire of
Austria. Now the Noble Lord (Lord Palmerston) had, in
plain languege, pointed out how totally erroneous that was.
But even supposing that it was dangerous to allow the
freedom of Cracow to continue it was not for
those, who were only three of the parties
to the general treaty, to have annihilated that State. The three
courts ought rather to have submitted their reasons for appre-
hending danger to the other States who were parties to the
treaty, and called upon them to sanction the alteration they
wished to be effected. Hail they pursued that course, and
succeeded in pointing out the danger that would result to
Austria from the continuance of Cracow as a free State. lie was
not prepared to say that the allies would not have been morally
and honourably bound to make the alteration in the treaty, but
he was there to say, that they being only three out of the eight
or nine Sovereigns to the compact, they were not warranted by
any law to be found existing in any civilised nation, to take
upon themselves the act of annexation. The Noble Lord the
Minister for Foreign Affairs, very properly complained that
he was not apprised of the existence of these dangers,
while from the power Austria hail over the police of Cracow,
and over persons going to or from Cracow, it was almost
impossible that the danger could be real, and consequently the
whole of the measures which had been taken by the three
Powers were founded upon the grossest injustice. On one
occasion the Ns.ble Lord stated that he considered that the

territory of Cracow formed no part of the treaty of Vienna,
but he was glad to observe that the Noble Lord in his letter
of remonstrance admitted that Cracow was included in the
treaty of Vienna. Now he did hope that after that, there
would be no attempt made to repeat the allegation that there
had been no violation of the treaty of Vienna. It might have
been expected that men who owed so much to Great Britain,
who owed so much to her efforts, and to her large expenditure
of money—an expenditure amounting to six hundred millions
sterling, voluntarily spent—in order to place the con-
tinent of Eurosie in a state of security, would have
refrained from offering England an insult beyond any thing
he had ever read of. When he remembered that nearly every
state in Europe owed its independence to the efforts and exer-
tions of England, it did appear to him to be a strange want of
courtesy that all the three Courts should not have taken the
least notice of her remonstrance. He asked if the declaration
of Ferdinand, dated the !Rh of November, did not set aside
the whole of the treaty of Vienna ? and he asked if it was not
sufficient to urge Government to take some decided steps in
the matter. He knew nothing more dishonourable than the
proceedings of the three Powers; and in order to show the
House the view he took of the question, he was disposed to
adopt not a simple protest, which they did not care for, but he
would have them show their opinion of the transaction in a
stronger manner, and he trusted the British House of
Commons would lend their support to the view he took of this
matter. He was asked that morning it he wished for war ;
his answer was no, he was a man of peace. He was not for
war, but having in his power, under a legislative enactrneot,
the disposal of a certain sum ca money which England intended
to guarantee and pay under certain stipulations. he intended to
mask his displeasure of this Act by withholding that money.
The stipulation under which the money was paid had been vio-
lated, and England being therefore absolved from its payment,
he proposed to submit four resolutions to the House, for
legalising the forfeiture of the money. The Treaty of Vienna
was come to for the purpose of settling the balance of power in
Europe, and to effect that object, Great Britain made many
sacrifices, plainly showing that she was disinterested in all her
proceedings. Therefore, it became important that they should
look to the grounds on which the treaty was made, with the
view of ascertaining if its stipulations had not been violated.
lie was one of those who had always objected to the treaty, but
he was anxious to see peace restored, and on that ground he gave
his reluctant consent to it. But still there were stipulations
in that treaty which he had invariably objected to, and should
never cease to think that it wax a stain upon the honour of
England when she consented to partitions of Poland—he meant
the partitions of 1773, 1793, and 1795. He drew up on
paper a sketch of the violations of the principles of freedom
which were committed in connexion with Poland. In 177.3
there was a division of land to the extent of 3,600 miles, con-
taining a population of 6,360,00(3 persons. That amount of
territory was distributed between Russia, Austria, and Prussia
There was a strong feeling manifest in England against this
glaring violation of the principles of independence, and cer •
tainly the feeling 'lid honour to the country. In the same
1795, htahveinreg awpasopulaantoiotnberof 7d,ivlUisOio,Onoo
of 4,59`_'
mar.ner, in 1793, there were 6,850 miles of land taken from Po-
land, having
concurringa threeratio n was
iiltbliioyonnt,si:teoacsoscould
nl Austria,
eodt
miles, with a population of six millions ant; a half, so that on
n
2 while,
hle
square iin
the whole there were twenty millions of people divided between
awseirsna' sanctioned tenopnaenrd't
helpfifive
powersat
iniidantka
Prussia, and four and a half to Russia. That robbery and
and when he considered the sacrifice of honour, England made
if they continued to carry out the guarantee after the stipula-
Vinhigaelnfthntaaot,
tions founded upon it were violated, England would be as
bad as the robbers themselves. The treaty of Vienna ought
above all, he thought, to be carried out by those for whom
England had made so many sacrifices, hut more particularly
Austria, who in the day of her trout.le. when she was
nearly overwhelmed by Huonaparte, and her exchequer
was exhaustetl, England maintained her arm and
advanced a loan of upwards of sixty millions, but ;O' w
that
these three powers had disregarded its provisions, it ought no
longer to be respected by this country ; at least so far as the
payment of the money alluded to in his resolution was con-
cerned. Austria bad only paid half her debt back again to
this country, and after thin act of tyranny, followed by the
insult to England of disregarding the remonstrance of the
British Government against the infraction of the treaty, he
thought wherever she made her appearance her features ought
to be stamped with shame, and her
tropic ever reproved
for sanctioning this act of ingratitude and tyt anny.
• not to be met by the statement that no in-
He was anxious
of the Treaty of Vienna had taken place. When he
fraction of France Prussia
saw that treaty, bearing the signaturr
deed
of e
Portugal, Russia, Sardinia, Sweden,
had signed that treatyver statel
but that of Spain. This country
arties tothe also,
and crime.
and had, therefore, rendered ourselves p
And was this country, then, to allow these parties to violate
the treaty, that we are one of the
guarantees to? He hoped the
time was come when such would not be the case. Lest there
should be any doubt as to the mode in which they were bound
to support Cracow, he would call the
attention of the House
15, declaring the
to the treaty signed on the 21st of April, 18T
h
e sixth article
independence of the free City of Cracow.
stated that no person inimical to the peace of Cracow should
remain, and if found in the city they should be delivered up on
application to the Austrian Government. Now no such person
had resided in Cracow, or if they did, no such application had
been made, the parties would have been given up by the
Senate. The liberty of the person, as well as the
press of Cracow, were also guarranteed by the Emperor

Nichalas, who, upon his accession to the throne in
1825 took an oath, in which he swore and promised before
God to rrisintain and execute to the utmost of lot power the
constitution of Cracow. Had he performer,' his oath? Mem-
bers of del Diet had been imprisoned for uttering (Onions ie
their official character, and numbers of the inhabitants hate
also been unjustly i tor risoned. The liberty cf the press tile
cot exist for a single day after the possession of that city b.;
Russia; the liberty of ti,e press was trodd:n under foot. The
nakedness and uttkindness of this mode of procedure ought to
be exposed to the public; this country sleeted learn a lesson bs
experience, and it should divest itself of all connection with
such faithless men, and maintain their honour unsullied instead
of being dragged along with them to the- commission of
such crimes. The right of public representation was to he
given, and an annual budget was to he submitted
to the people ; but during these last t Peen yearo no budget
had ever been submitted to the people, no representation of t le
public had been effected. The two charters were to be open to
the public. Had this promise been kept ? No. The Eloper.'
Nicholas had issued an ordinance, directing the doors of the
chambers to be closed. The Russian troops were cult to be
admitted into Nl:And under certain circumstances, 10,1 thee tu
he supported by Russia. flail that stipulation been attended
to? Tlie first thing done by the Em piece was to send a
standing army, which were support. d by the inhabitants of
Craeow, under every form of oppression anti injustice. And
set England stood by and submitted to all tide patiently and
quietly. In the year 1832 the constitution of Poland was en
tirely destroyed. Since that time thousands of Polish chil-
dren have been taken asvae, and sent to Russia, fer the ostent
Bible purpose of educating them, but in reality for the purpose
of destroying their love for the 'welter country ; they hay'
ground the people down by oppressive taxstion, suet universal
spoliation, by the suppressem of the public universities, are
the abolition of the bishoprics, What would the Right lion.
Baronet, the. Member for the University of Oxford
say
to e
st( iteuaers,
th
taitne ?—,
national T tte
cElnsinPite7l, and applied them to
Emperor had also appropri-
ated
the purpose of propagating another arid a totally distinct creed.
Surely his Right Friend would support him in his
motion, if for no other reason than the shameful attacks epee:
the Church of ruined Poland. He (Mr. Hume) was perfectly
ignorant of the amount of atrocities inflicted upon the Pole-
until he had looked narrowly into the subject, and became im-
pressed with the utter magnitude) of the violation. No na-
tional representation bad been granted to the Polish subjects
by Russia. Prins a had granted a representative diet to her
subjects, including among its members the Polish portion of
them. Austria had in some degree done the same. Russia
had alone refused it. The Poles had been forbidden by Russia
their own language ; their system of religion had betel,
abolished.-(Hear.) Surely this was a subject calling for
interference on the part of the British Government. Lord
Castlereagh bad said, when speaking et' Russia to the Minister
of that country, that Russia having penetrated almost to the
very heart of Prussia, and having obtained upon the south-
east Moldavia, Wallachia, and Pomerania, should be careful
not to excite jealousy among the o her countries of Europe,
and further stated. that the whole object of the treaty
of Vienna was permanently to settle the peace of Europe.
When such conduct in Powers 'who were parties to a stslemn
treaty was evinced, he asked what was the use of having any-
thing to do with treaties at all ? Why should not England
stand aloof altogether, and thereby keep ourselves free from
the calumny which must attend on such violations? But
there was now a change—an epoch had occurred ; the legs,
sanction conferred by the Treaty of Vienna to the division of
Poland was gone ; every obligation was destroyed, and every
nation in Europe was now free to act, if they thought proper,
to restore that country to the people. He knew not why the
same law should not prevail on the Rhine and the Danube, and
the property of that oppressed people to be restored to its proper
owners. When rogues quarrelled, the saying was that honest
men got their own.—(Laughter.) He said those rogues had
quarrelled—(Great laughter)—and he knew no reason why
the kingdom of Poland should not be again set up. He begged
to ask whether her Majesty's Ministers had confidence in those
contracting Powers ? he asked whether the people of Austria
and Prussia had confidence in their Governments.
An How. MEMBER near the Hon. Gentlemen (as we un-
derstood) asked him whether he advised a revolution in those
countries?
M. HOME said he did not advise that ; but, beyond what
he had said already, he went muck further. He must say
that the people of those countries were absolved from obliga-
tion to their Governments, and the day might come when they
would be roused probably to resistance. If he could look at
the horizon at all, his opinion on these events was, that what
had taken place, took away all security from every small state
in Europe ; it had made physical force the rule of the day, and
if physical force should become the rule, he asked the House to
consider what would be the consequences ? The suppression of
the independence of Cracow destroyed all pretext for European
international law. The faith of treaties was gone. If any
man believed otherwise, he called upon him to assert his
opinion, and when he had made the assertion, to prove it.—
( Hear, hear.) He emphatically said the peace of Europe was
gone. He felt he must refer the House to the correspondence
which had occurred between one of those powers and Switzer-
land. The Hon. Member, after reminding the House of the
change which had taken place among the States of Switzerland,
read a portion of the letter from the Court of Austria to the
Federal Government of Switzerland, in which it was stated
that that Court, always respecting international treaties
and good faith, would continue to respect her relation
with the States of Switzerland, so long as the pewter
of the Federal Government, was not virtually invaded, for
that federal Government was recognised and satisfied in the
treaty of ISIS. The Hon. Member could not conceive how
that Court could be so impudent, for he knew no worse word
—( Laughter)—by which to characte rise her conduct. In his
opinion, a less warrantable statement than that which he had
just quoted, had never been made before a criminal judge. He
must say that proceedings as these were only the commence-
ment of violations ; it led necessarily to more eminent risk of a
breach upon the peace of Europe, which was now deprived of all
security. Notwithstanding the sacrifices at which that peace
had been gained, and security to Poland guaranteed, the vio-
lations of these had now been such that her Majesty was under
the necessity of emphatically marking her opinion of them
from the throne. It became this country then to express their
ahhorence of the deed. The time was now come when matters
so serious, must be viewed in a proper light, anti he hoped her
Majesty's Ministers would be moved to exert their
utmost power to express their abhorrence of the
act ; he hoped the House would do the same,
and that the House had it in their power
to exhibit their indignation emphatically, as he hoped to show.
He must, however, notice in passing the representation given
by the Noble Lord (Lord G. 13entinek) of the situation of
Cracow. That Noble Lord stated that the Polish inhabitants
of Cracow, on the occasion of the entry of foreign troops into
their country, had danced and made bonfires, and exhibited
other demonstrations of joy. lie knew not what might be the
source of the Noble Lord's information, but he (Mr. Hume)
had a document in his hand, the genuineness of which he did
not doubt for a moment., airing a picture the very opposite of
that drawn by the Noble Lord; and he must think that the
had
Noble Lord's description applied to the oppressors and not to
the oppressed. He said he had yet to show that money
been paid, and was being paid, to one of the contracting, powers,e
which ought not to be paid. By the fourth article pou
treaty of Vienna, a treaty between England, D.
usstiach,
rnd Holland, was set forth respecting the Russo-
Loan, which was payable on two contingenel
ites
of Bgum
One of these was the allegiance for
to the King of the Netherlands. England bound hersel
the interest, 25,000,000 florins, at I per cent., payable frond
ahe
year 1815 to the year 1915, just one hundred years ; a
Act was passed in that House to enable the Government
theto
make that payment. But in 1831 there was a change. In
year 1830, Belgium was separated by a revolution from the
Crown of Netherlands. England sanctioned the separation, and_,e
yet continued to pay the money stipulated in the treaty. H
thought they were then paying what they had no right t
thouo payt,
lt.d he in his place stated then that he ght
they were wrong. The Government on that occasion were no
convinced, but on second thoughts they afterwards brought in
b re was
an Act to sanction the payment. In the y
circumstances.
the treaty of 1815 to suit the change of
a new convention negotiated between Englandear andiB3 11331 there
al-
teringect of
tweet' the courts of London and St. Petersburgh, innr,esePg.,
and
and that convention, after stipulating identity of conduct be-
Belgium, re-organised the treaty of Vienna astbl cut'
was brought in and passed in the 2d and 3dtohfa Convention
stipulated its observance. An Act ratifying
of that Act
c. 81 If such, then, was the express declaration
e former Act
and that convention, equally binding as w— that Act as
end treaty, he asked the House now to
set asid asked them to
they had set aside the treaty of 1815. If he.
leht consider it
do that because it was his own opinion, they„ln'eas very Corn-
of very little value, but a learned civilian, sn'osvi said that in
William IV.,
petent to form a correct judgment on the subj
eCßUssia the Go-
consequence of the infractions of the treaty by the loan for
vernment of England was absolved from Pay
which they had stipulated.
If they
according to
it another Act of Parliament would be necnetsdsaor
Yso by the Act
this gentleman's views, for they could
not
debted to the Hon.
under which they paid it now. He was hist they had no legal
Member for Kinsale for the opinion t
tleman also put into
right to pay the money. That Hon. Gen
s to the effect, thet
his hand an extract from Vatel, which
wa
could not be consi.
the several articles composing one treat! u
-o Id be no doubt but
dered as several distinct treaties. according
to pay
taeaty there were some
true that while in the ratification of that
others objected to. It
of the articles agreed to, and there were s
the treaty of Vienna had been violartheedr,e
broken, there was
one part, therefore, of the obligation wa
We had also ex-
nothing obligatory in the remainder.
Martin's "Law of
tracts from Grotius and from
view
.
Let them
Nations" to support the same
Russian-Dutch loan had
now see how the payments of the nd it was also equally
,000/. in interest,
principal of this loan paid oft; an t
tty sum that for a coun-
making a total of 3,374,0001. A su,re
said would not
of the Exchequer
try which the Chancellor
revenue for the pre-
have more than 60,0001. as the surplus
proceeded. From 1816 to 1846 thetee2l:7l“2lBbeen 645,933/. of
read overthe third reso
1 proceeded to say that be
lution which he intended to movesiannu!
nfolding the various prio-
haul now progressed, step by
that convention. Hhd e shown t
(feedings connected with tha.
from thel r
year
81a—he had
sacrifices which England made
had le
sent year The Hon Member then
that the
id e r
lend:Pe naelL
shown that the treaty of Vien
an:
parties, and the
arrangements of Europe —he had show,.
national .erne es in that treaty
had been
who were parties to it - th e baesis of the future
that several
agreed to by the contracting p
arante d • •
ence of Cracow was expes .Austria w e tt. He had shown
that the proceedings ofe had shown a manifest violation oi
that she
engagement—wn that Lord Palrnerstor
concurred in this opinion. He had read extracts from several
authorities on the law of treaties, who unanimously condemned
the proceedings of the Northern Powers—he had shown that
while Russia had
broken her treaties, England had strictly
kept
hers. He did think, therefore, that under these circume
stances the Ministry ought to have the moral courage to take
the course which be proposed to them, and not permit the
people of England to be parties to this Russian degradation.
hoped the House of Commons would
At all events he not, as
far as they were concerned, suffer such an infraction of the
most solemn treaties without
pronouncing against it then
strongest condemnation. be Hon. Member concluded by
moving the resolutions, w will be found at the commence-
ment of this speech.
Lord SANDON seconded the motion, and thought himself
fully warranted in doing so. The most remarkablee
part of the
transaction appeared to him to be the undisguised manner in
which these Powers carried out their intentions. The Noble
Lord proceeded to draw the attention of the House to the
assed b twee
e
correspondence that p n the Charge des Affairesel
France, the Earl of W. estmorlands and the Minister
Foreign Affaires in Prussia, from the Ist of April, when the
movements of the great powers became suspected
till the 25th June, when the Earl of Aberdeen wrote
his dispatch to the British consul at Warsaw.
After a silence of three months a formidable dispatch ap-
peared, to which the name of Prince Metternich was attached.
setting forth, first, that Cracow had forfeited all title to be an
independent state ; and, secondly, that no other powers ha I
any right to be consulted as to any proceedings which the
three powers might think proper to adopt with respect to it.
But to enter into a controversy on all the points, after they ha,.
been so fully dealt with by the Ministers of France and England..
would be a work of supererogation, yet it seemed but natures
that the House should express its concurrence in the course
taken by the Government of this country with respect to the
conduct of these powers. Ile was one of those who utter)
repudiated the doctrine, that the question ought to be con
sidered as a domestic one in which the other powers
Europe ought not to be consulted; it was a mos'
extraordinary argument ; perhaps the most extraordinary thin:
in the whole proceeding. Clearly the distinct stipulation be-
tween Austria, Russia, and England was, that the safetya

Cracow should be guaranteed; certainly such an assertion at
once destroys; the argument that this was a domestic question,
with which this country had no right to deal. The correspsn-
'fence between Lord Csastler. agh an,l the late Emperor A;exan-
der of Ru-sia, showed as clearly that the matter was eon Ld
by both Rus:ia and England, as a qe-e:tien of the woloA
ira-
portance. No one of the States who were party to the treaty i
-if Vienna, had a right to pick out one part of a transaction,
and to say, " That is of no impirtanco ; we will Inks what
steps we think proper respecting it, without consulting, any of
he parties to the treaty."—(Hear, hear.) Those who fa-
voured the conduct of the three powers, urged in support of
their proceedings, that the treaty had not been strictly
adhered to, and that material changes had taken place—namely,
the separation of Belgium from Holland ; that certainly was a
material alteration, but then it should be borne in mind that
hat separation was not considered valid until the whole of the
powers hail ratified this departure from the strict letter of the
treaty. In looking at the suppression of Cracow, they must
not simply view the number of souls which it contained, nor
the number of acres it covered, but as a great transact inn the
abject of which was to put a stop to the nationality of Poland—
( Hear.) There was no pretence for saying that any under-
standing was come to at the time of framing the treaty with
the three powers, that an advatitaee was after wards Liken of it
for the purpose of destroying the last remnant of Polish inde-
pendence, and it was ridiculous to say that the securing
if a proper arrangement of police oa the frontier
was any pretence at all for violating a solemn treaty,
He hoped that within those walls there would lie no more dif-
ference of opinion than there was out of them, namely, that
for the sake of a minor policy, the great orineiple upon w hosts
the peace of Europe eq.(' based, was saerille,d. He desired ts,
express his hopes that the Emperor of Russia would recall the
noble sentiments which animated his distinguished predecessor,
and give security to his stature by the extension of fresh liber-
ties to his rubjecte. With the expression of this hope, he
would sit down, trusting that the first resolution would meet
with a hearty concurrence.
Lord JOHN. RUSSELL said, without entering into the
zeneral argument of my lion. and Noble Friend, I will shortly
state to the House the view wh eh I take of the motion which
has been laid upon the table of the House. With regard to
the argument which Eas been stated, that the three powers
were not justified by treaty—by the treaty of Vienna, in con-
eluding for themselves whether the constitution of the free state
of Cracow should be maintained or not; with regard to that
argument, I cannot but concur in the view taken by my Ho-
nourable Friend who made, and my Honourable Friend who
seconded the motion. I think it is clear, from the words of
the treaty of Vienna, that a violation of it has taken place.
I think it is clear from the articles of the treaty itself, that
the words which gave a constitution to Cracow, were not an
immaterial part of the treaty, but evinced one of the prin-
cipal relations under which it was made at the conclusion of
a bloody and destructive war. Nor eats I think that the
arrangements which placed the Duchy of Warsaw under the
dominion of the Emperor; of Russia, the stipulations of
which formed the basis of a long and singular correspondence
between the Minister of Foreign Affairs in this country and
the Emperor of Russia, I cannot think that these arrangements,
which left one single particle of the country free and inde-
pendent, were immaterial and insignificant. It cannot but
appear, I think, that however small the territory may be—
however small the population of that place may be—yet the
treaty formed at first between these three powers, and then
by all the powers who were concurring parties to the treaty
of Vienna, by which that city should be free and independent
—meant that that freedom and independence should leave
to Poland—should leave to some part of the Polish
nation a separate existenee.—(Hear.) And that, giving
up much—admitting much to the Emperor of Russia, it was
yet a confirmation of the principle that some part of the Polish
nation should retain its independence and separate existence.
For these reasons, therefore, I think that if its existence, as a
city, has been secured by a general treaty. whatever com-
plaints the three powers had to make, that Cracow was the
focus of disturbance and revolution, and that intriguei there
found a centre and a means of organization; and that by the
rise from that small city, of insurrections against the three
surrounding powers, it was impossible to preserve those powers
from those insurrections ; that if these reasons were good and
valid ones, they ought to have been stated to England and
France—( Hear, hear)—and that England and France should
have been invited to a congress, or some species of conference,
in which their consent should have been asked, to put an end
to that state of things which these three powers declare to
be intolerable, and which they could no longer per-
mit with safety to themselves. So much, I think
Sir, is clear from the papers which record the
general transactions of the treaty of Vienna; and so much I
think is clear from the passage which my Noble Friend oppo-
site read from a statement of the Prussian Minister of Foreign
Affairs, and in which he admits that if the arrangement of the
treaty of Vienna were to be altered, a correspondence with
England and France ought to be the necessary consequence.
In the next place, I think with regard to the reasons
which are given by these three powers, and which
are stated more especially by Prince Metternich on
behalf of the Court of Austria, that these reasons appear
to me not sufficient for; their violent proceedings.—(Cheers )
cannot myself imagine that then: could not have been pre-
cautions taken which, however they confined and limited the
actions of the free and independent city of Cracow, could yet
have secured that its name and its independence should be
maintained, and that all danger from refugees, and from its
being made a place where strangers from all parts of the
land planned conspiracies, could have been avoided and pre-
vented. It does seem to me most extraordinary that this
little state—this mere atom surrounded by Russia, by Aut.
tria, and by Prussia—by these great and mighty monarchies—
each with vast military forces—each with abundant means of
having the command of all the roads leading to Cracow, and
having the power to march troops at any moment into the
city of Cracow, having themselves certain rights, which were
constituted and "assigned to them by the treaty of Vienna—
that they should find themselves so powerless as to be unable to
prevent Cracow from being dangerous to their power and se
curity. I cannot think that these three powers did earnestly,
vigilantly and sincerely, use all the powers which they had, in
order to prevent Cracow from becoming the means of disturb-
ance; arid it cannot but be suspected, especially in the latter
part of the transaction, that when the Government was dis-
solved in Cracow, and disorganisation had taken place, it was
to them not an unwelcome circumstanee—(Cheers)—that is,
not altogether unpalateable to these three powers—that they
were able to see that all the moans of good were gone in Cra-
sow—that it was in a state of anarchy and disorder—and that
nothing remained but the title of independence. I think,
therefore, Sir—both on the grounds of the treaty of Vienna,
and the Importance of the stipulation with regard to Cracow,
and with regard to the reasons urged for its extinc-
tion—that, in the first place, it was a manifest violation of the
treaty of Vienna, and I think that if the question had been
discussed in a congress, or in a conference among the powers,
there is no sufficient proof, as far as we have hitherto seen,
that these three powers would have been able to persuade the
minds of England and France that there were sufficient rea-
sons for the course they adopted. Neither, Sir, am I con-
vinced, by the instances which are given by the Minister of
Austria, filet the various stipulations of the treaty of Vienna,
which have been altered by mutual arrangement of the princi-
pals concerned, and whose territories were affected by that
treaty—(such as Coburg and others, and which have been
transferred in consideration of some increase of authority to the
principals, or in mutual convenience with regard to their
territories, for the purpose of giving a fair equivalent
to each, and, at the same time, making a more con-
venient arrangement for all)—are breaches of that treaty.
They are natural and easy alterations of the treaty, which might
take place, without any person being able to call them infrac-
tions of the treaty, and they bear in my mind no resemblance
to the one great and leading matter of stipulation in which all
the great powers of Europe are interested. How can it be
said with regard to this great nation—supposing that some
arrangement is made between Austria and Prussia for the ex-
tinction of Saxony—that it is not to be consulted? These
great powers are asked " How can you, only two parties to
the treaty of Vienna, agtree to extinguish that state?" And
what answer would it be to say that some petty territory had
been divided between two or three principals, and that no pro-
test was made with respect to that? Sir, I again say, that I
consider the:extinction of this free state a violation of one of the
main and leading parts of this treaty. But, Sir, my Hon. Friend
is not satisfied with the protest which my Noble Friend the
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs has directed to be de-
livered to the Courts of the three powers principally con-
cerned, he wishes this House to agree to certain reso-
lutions. With regard to the first of these resolutions, my
Noble Friend opposite, who seconded the resolution, is in com-
plete accordanee with the motion, but with regard to the last
of these resolutions, he is not so far agreed to it, and he
doubted if that House ought to adopt it. Now, Sir, with re-
gard to the first resolution—" That this House views with
alarm and indignation the incorporation of the free city of
Cracow to the dominions of the Emperor of Austria, to the
manifest violation of the treaty of Vienna." I should
beg the House to consider that there is a very great
difference between that which has been done by my
Noble Friend in obedience to her Majesty's commands, and that
which is proposed to this House in this resolution. It is the
prerogative of the Crown to make treaties, and to carry on the
correspondence and relations of this country with all foreign
Powers. Every treaty, every engagement, is carried on in the
name of the Sovereign, and by the command of
the Sovereign. if a treaty had been signed and re-
vised, as this treaty has been signed and revised, by the Minis-
ters of England, in the name of George the Third
and the Prince Regent, and any violation or contra
vention of the treaty should take place, the person on whom it
devolves to make any representation with regard to any
protest is obviously the Minister of the Sovereign of England,
who had, in the first place, made the arrangement.
With regard to the functions of this House, it is entirely of a.
different nature. - When a treaty of importance is made or con-
firmed, it is usual for the Minister of the Crown to come to
this House and to ask for its concurrence. If a treaty of sub-
sidy or commerce is signed, and the interference of Parliament
is thought necessary, then the course is for the Minister of the
Crown to come before the Reese for its sanction and concur-
rence to the same. But to affirm resolutions expressive of an
opinion on the subject-matter of a treaty, this is not the usual,
nor is it the regular course of proce cling. It is not advisable
that the House of Commons should affirm resolutions respecting
our relations with foreign Powers, unless they intend to follow
those resolutions up with measures which are to be given effect
to by the Executive. The. usual course is for the Secretary of
State for Foreign Affairs to advise her Majesty as to the course
to be taken in regard to the violation of any treaty with
foreign Powere.—(Hear,, hear.) For my part, I have never
advised nor decided that the House should take upon
itself the functions to which I have referred to, or that it
should imitate the conduct cf the French Chambers with regard
to Poland.—(Bear, hear.) It is usual for the French Chamber
of Deputies, at the commencement of each session, to protest
against the acts of the Emperor Nicholas, and declare the na-
tionality of Poland. I think a cause loses force by bringing it
continually under notice without following up whatever decla-
ration may be made by other measures. ( Hear, hear.) It
therefore leads to no practical good to bring such a question
under the notice of a representative assembly without following
the matter further.—(Hear, hear.) But how great is the dif-
ficulty in which this country is at present placed in relation to
this treaty ? It has been said that by the letter of the treaty
of Vienna that we are freed from the obligations which it im-
poses. Now, for my own part, I can see no advantage
in departing
from the usual course, or in bringingthe subject before the House for its consideration and the de-
claration of its opinion. I think the House should respect the
usual custom in affairs of this kind, and it is on this reason
mainly that I oppose the present motion. While I have no
objection tour
against the resolution under consideration—for
I gave my opinion onfolmerly, as I give it now, against the sup-
pression of Cracow
still I cannot consent to the course pro-
posed by the Hon. Member for 11.1ontrose. Upon gr thegrounds
I have stated, therefore, I for
di to move the previous
With the. resolution that follows I purpose to do
question.
the some. But with regard to the last resolution, which de-
clares that this country secures to Russia the payment of a;por-
don of her old Dutch debt, on condition of the general arrange-
ments of the Congress of Vienna, to which she gave her
ents which remain in full force," I
must demur. Siradhesion—arratige
that is another and a different question. This
; made at the time of the union of Belgium
with Holland,
w
ahen it was agreed that the debt which Holland
w
ashould be taken to by Great Britain, and that
oitehd tousti w
this country should pay the mterest on it. Russia was a party to
this arrangement, and consented to it. When afterwards, and
after a lapse of time,
the two countries separated, Russia,
according to the letter of the treaty, was no longer entitled to
the benefit of this arrangement, and therefore, if the letter of
the treaty was to be adhered to, you were freed from its
obligations ; Belgium had separated from Holland, and the
treaty might have been declared at an end. Put though you