The Sun.
London, England, 1824-05-14 00:00:00

sehich none were interested but those who contributed. But he
Forgot that the contributions were forced, and not voluntary.
Mr. 'l'. WILSON said, that although he supported the mea-
sure in time of distress, he was now ready to give it every con-
s'Aleration, with a view to granting whatever relief was prac-
ticable.
Mr. SYKES and Mr. JAMESmade some observations, which
.were inaudible in the gallery.
Mr. S. WORTLEY said that without pledging himself to
any particular time, or to any particular course, he should
certainly bring the matter before the House after the favour-
able manner in which the petition had been received.—The
Petition was ordered to be printed.
SUGAR DRAWBACKS.
Mr. W. WHITMORE rose, is pursuance to notice, to call
the attention of the House to the Drawbacks or bounties on
.-Sugar. Before going into the question he would state the
stature of his motion. He intended to move for the appoint-
talent of a Select Committee to inquire into these bounties.—.
It was necessary for hint to remind them, that there was in
existence a complete monopoly as respected the Sugar pro-
duced is the West Indian Colonies. He must also call to
their recollection, that the produce of those Colonies had
been, for some years, greater than the consumption of this
country, but this surplus was constanly diminishing. The
bounties allowed were 30s. upon Sugars of the value of 475.
per hundred weight and upwards, and 275. upon All of a
lower value. He described the effect of the bounties to be to
advance the price of sugar at home, and diminish it to the con-
sumers abroad. He had taken great pains to inform himself
on this subject, and believed that he had arrived at the truth,
but did not wish the House to adopt his opinion. AU he de-
sired was, that they should grant him a Committee to inquire
into the merits of the case. He calculated, taking the quan-
tities of sugar consumed in England in 1823, 3,130,000 cwt.
into consideration, and all other circumstances, that the total
charge thrown on the country by these bounties, had amounted
in that year to 1,107,000/. When other bounties were given
up, he had yet to learn what was the justice or the policy of
keeping up these, at least in the shape of bounties. But when
:t was stated, and as there was but too much reason to believe
correctly stated, that the West India interest was depressed, he
had no objection to a like sum continuing to be advanced by the
country, in connection with West Indian affairs, if directed to a
propel-object. -He thought it right, while on this subject, to in-
quire whether-the distress complained of was permanent or tem-
porary in its character, and whether it would be likely is pass
away if things were left to themselves--whether palliatives
were proper to meet the evil, or whether the whole question
ought to be considered. He was afraid the evil might be re-
garded as permanent in its character, and in support of this
opinion he referred to Bryan Edwards, to Reports of the Co-
lonial Assemblies at different periods, and to other authorities.
He spewed that the planters had generally been represented
as being in embarrassed circumstances, that many estates had
been thrown up, and that property amounting to no less than
22,463,7661. had been lodged in the Provost's Office in the course
of twenty years. Every thing proved that distress was the
rule, and prosperity the exception ; such being.the case in any
other part of the globe would cause the place in which it was
-witnessed to be depopulated. This would have happened to
the West Indies but for the supplies of capital furnished front
time to time by this country. It was desirable to look at the
cause which made distress the rule and prosperity the excep-
tions. These were collaterally the absence of the Proprietors,
the -mortgagees on estates, the consignments made to mort-
gagees, and -the system oiplacing the management of West
India estates in inc. hands of overseers ; but that which he
viewed as more than all- the.rest the cause of the evil was the
present system of slave labour in the West Indies. He pro-
ceeded to argue that it -was proved by' experience that slave
labour was of all descriptions of labour the most costly. Before
going into this subject he would chew that compulsory labour
in this country was the least productive. In proof of this, he
appealed to Gentlemen connected with Agriculture, as to the
oomparison to be made between the quantity of work done by
the job and .by the day, and also between the quantity per-
forMed in a given time by mete labouring for themselves and
by others employed by the Parish Overseers. In the first case
the man was found to put forth all his strength; in the second,
the quantity done was much smaller; and in the last case, still
less was performed. Front comparing the situation of (litre-
fent States in America, he drew an argument against slave
labour, and chewed that in some instances the land was one-
third, in others one-half more valuable where free labour was
employed, than where the cultivation was performed by slaves.
Another instance -which had been alluded to in that House be-
fore, was, in his mind, conclusive. The lion. Josiah Sleet, a
West India Proprietor, finding his affairs embarrassed, went
over to liarhadoes to superintend his estates himself. His
estates consisted of 1,050 acres, on which there 288 slaves._
The deaths in the preceding year had been fifty-seven,the births
but fifteen. Ile changed the system of management; had the
negroes who offended tried by negroes, and in various respects
:reproved their condition The result was most gratifying
in all respects. It was found within a given period that the births
were 41, the deaths but 41, of which ten were superannuated.
and the annual produce of the estate was more than trebled.—
That free labour was more beneficial than slavery he proceeded
- to skew front reference to the flourishing state of Sierra Leone.
There the progress of commerce and of civilization was such as
bad scarcely been paralleled in any part of the world. He
I:ad accounts of the produce of the duties there from 1812 to
1823. lie would not go through the whole, but begged to read
some of them to the House.
In 1812 their amount was - . - - .£1,992
181:; 1,328
1820 6,153
1821 6.314
In 1822 they were only 4,764
but in 1823 they were 8,9391. This, too, he should remark,
was their produce in three quarters of the year. Should the
remaining quarter there prove equally favourable. the total
aatount in that year would double the produce of 1822. What
be had stated proved that commerce flourished there, and at the
same time internal works were actively going on, churches
and public buildings were rapidly rising, and a profitable trade
was carried on with the interior of Africa. The natives came
down even from the Niger, brisging gold and ebony, and other
productions, to exchange for the manufacturers of Europe. Ile
next read to the House a series of returns of the commerce of
ifayti. The number of ships employed in 1822 was 1035. Thel
amount of this tonns.e 121,474. Their cargaes amounted to'
.13.017,290 dollars, and the duties paid on the imports amounted
• to 1,477,178 dollars. He specified the amount of the externs
af coffee, sugar, cotton, mahogany, logwood, and cocoa,',
ar.l stated the total amount to be 9,202,397 dollars, and the
duty on the exports was no less than 1,365,40.2. A Noble Lord
on a late occasion had referred to Hayti as furnishing a proof
that slave labour was necessary in the West Indies, and it had
been stated that the situation of St. Domingo was such that it
could not he cultivated, and dint its inhabitants were obliged'
even to import sugar. He had, however, said enough to chew
'that there was no want of industry theme, and that Hayti was
fart advancing to a state of prosperity and wealth. What
• he could wish for with respect to the bounties to which he had
called the attention of the• House was, that the stint now ex-
rentled on them should be applied towards the emancipation
of slaves. Ile could recommend that the slaves should have
one day granted to them in each week to labour for them-
selves in order to raise a fund for their emancipation. This•.
he thought would be desirable; but at present he had no wish
to go into that subject, and proposed to limit the proceedings
of the Committee for which he called to the operation of those
bounties, with respect to which he had stated in the outset hel
wisised inquiry to be made. The Hon. Gentleman concluded

the duty at 30e. Nothing, it appeared to him, could be so
unparliamentary or so unnecessary as to go into an inquiry on
the admitted and ascertained ameunt of the drawbacks. Though
he objected in principle to the system of bounties on exporta-
tion, it was desirable that the law in this instance should not be
immediately altered to aggravate that distress which was
already admitted to be great. The subject to which his Hon.
Friend had principally applied himself, this was no fit time to
debate, and when brought forward by itself, he should still be
little disposed to entertain it, however philosophic, statesman.;
like, philanthropic and humane it might be, from the strong
opinion which the House had expressed on the mupolicy of
frequently renewing these discussions. The Honourable Gen-
tleman was anxious to get these bounties repealed, that he might
obtain a fund applicable to slave emancipation. lie had stated
the amount of them to be somewhere about 1,100,000/., but he
(Mr. Huskisson) did nut consider their amount to exceed
150,0001., or from that to 200,0001. He, however, objected to
couple a question of this sort with any other. Let it be de-
cided whether the measure called for was to be passed as a
fiscal measure—as a measure to improve the revenue, or as one
of humanity to buy the slaves from their masters. This pies.
tion, howts er, was not then before the House. With respect to
the successful experiment made by Mr. Steel, a variety of cir-
cumstances might have favoured it, and it was not safe to infer
from that what he had done on his own estate could be done
by legislative authority in all the West India Colonies without
risk of great convulsions. The lion. Gentleman had then di-
rected the attention of the Ilouse to the colony of Sierra Leone,
but here again he contended, it was not, he supposed,
that
that could be done by all the slaves in the Indies, which had'
been done with the few cargoes taken to Sierra Leone, though
he was one of those who approved of the experiment which had
been made there, and was unwilling to bear the object with
which that colony had been found cried down. Having no
practical measure now to propose, and it being free to the
Hon. Gentleman to bring forward what motion he might think
proper in the next Session of Parliament he saw nn grounds
for granting the Committee now called for. The Honourable
Gentleman must be aware that changes had occurred within
the last twenty years. It was necessary for this country
more or less to shape her commercial system according to
the new state of the world, the new interestscreated, and the
new circumstances in which Europe might be placed. This, '
however, was not to be hastily done, and perhaps Ministers
themselves could not state which eventually they might feel
themselves called upon to do. At all events, however, it
would be desirable to avoid discussions, which could not be
entertained without considerable danger. In the present in-
stance he thought his Hon. Friend had laid no ground for his
motion.
Mr. WHITMORE replied. Ile admitted that his informs-
Lion might be erroneous in some respects, but defended his
general view of the subject.
The question was then put and negatived.
SA LT DUTY.
Mr. WOODHOUSE rose to call the attention of the House
to the consideration of the expediency of retaining the pre-
sent duty on Salt, for the purpose of obtaining the means of
remitting the Window Tax. Some persons considered Par-
liament pledged to the total repeal of the Salt Duty. He
hoped, for his own part, that he was not remarkable for laxity
of principle, but he held it to be the duty of Parliament to con-
sider at all times and under all circumstances what could be
done for the benefit of the country. Ile proceeded to urge
the reasons which had occurred to him in favour of retaining
the Salt Duty. It was impossible for the leading personages in
the Government to give their attention to all the details of every
measure. These must conic more especially under the notice of
oneindividual. He had been referred to Mr. Carr, the Solicitor
to the Excise.—(Hear,hear ! )—liebegged to say, he did not stand
there to advocate any Excise laws or regulations, but such
laws and regulations' whatever they might be, ought to be
reviewed at least with patience, and not with passion. Mr.
Carr had been examined some years ago before a Committee
of that House, with a view to amend the Criminal Law of
the eeuntry, and had then given it as his opinion that low
duties were desirable, as in that case low penalties would
be sufficient, while if high duties were maintained, high penal-
ties Would be necessary', and the evil effects of high duties
were seen in the prevalence of smuggling. He would ask if
it could be thought that any man of gentlemanly pretensions
would lay down such a principle as Mr. Carr (who was a
Gentleman of no paltry endowments) had done, if he did not
mean to abide by it ? lie had tried him by the test thus
supplied, and, so far as he could judge, Mr. Carr could neTCY
fbrfeit that pledge which be considered him to have given.—
The alleged absurdity of the Salt Laws was more than coun-
terbalanced by the acknowledged benefit of the consolidation of
the Board of Excise. The next point for consideration was the
expence of collection, which was about five per cent., the ex-
pence being 15,000/. and the amount collected being 300,0001. a
year. The Excise prosecutions would engage attention for the
purpose of ascertaining the consequence of the reduction of the
duty, and the little Hangar which would be encountered by let.
ting it remain as it at present stood. The number of these pro-
secutions had materially lessened, so that to render the present
' amount of penalties scarcely worthy of. consideration.—[The
Hon. Member here went into some details for the purpose of
proving his last proposition.l—The smuggling in salt, he be-
lieved, had been entirely done away in consequence of the re.
duccd duty, so that there could he no apprehension on that
point. Indeed he believed he could prove this fact, if neces-
sary, by a Deputation of .Smugglers. In one case, in a northern
county, he understood that a smuggler in a very considerable
way, who employed 21 men, had discharged them all, in con-
sequence of the present low rate of duty having rendered the
trade of smuggling not worth following. Ile was aware that
much objection would. be made to his proposal by Honourable
Members connected with time fisheries; but he could only ask
of those Honourable Gentlemen to look at the question with
reference to the general interests of the whole country, and not
to those of a particular interest. lie expected also some oppo-
sition from those who looked upon salt as necessary for agri-
, cultural purposes. Upon this part of the !subject the Ilon.
Member for Cumberland (Mr. (lumen) could give them the
most information; but he (Mr. W.) must observe, that he un-
derstood the Hon. Member who had considerable estates in
England, as well as the Isle of 3lan. used salt chiefly, if not
entirely, for the benefit of his English estates, although the
tax did not prevail in the Isle of Man. He believed he should
meet the determined opposition of most of the Members for the
Western Counties ; but he trusted that he should be supported
on the principle which he had always attended to in the course
of his own Parliamentary life; to look at the interests of time
many, and not those of the few. The Hon. M ember then noticed
the -effect which the tax 'had upon Chemical Establishments.
On this subject the evidence of Mr. Parker .(given before a
Committee of that House) would, he trusted, be opposite to that
of the Hon. Member for Bothnia (Mr. Gilbert) who he hoped
would look at the question in a general view, and not confine
himself to pilchards.--(A laugh.)---lt was said that the total
repeal of the Duty would cw,i,e an increase in tha de-
mand for salt in the proportion of fourteen to one. Now, if
any Member who understood the subject would get up in his
place, and say he believed this assertion, he (Mr. W.) would
at once withdraw his 'notion. Ile believed that many advan-
tages would be obtained by a retention of the tax, and a trans-
fer of the proposed reduction to the duty on windows. This
would •relieve the stuah rate rouses from all survey, and might
' work considerable relief when the window duty was considered
together with the house duty. .One objection to his proposi-
tion, for which he was prepared, was, that a kind of pledge
had been given for the repeal of the salt tax.—(Hear, hear !)-
-He could not see the effect of such an objection, because if it
were good for Anything, it would go to bind all Honourable
. .

_ . . . . ... .., .
. .
by moving—" For the appointment of a Select Committee to Members to one opinion, though they might Afterwards be con-
. inquire into the operation of the bounties:paid on the exporta- vinced it was wrong. He did riot think the present duty was
tion of Sugar." objectionable. It was for those who thought .it was to prove
Mr. HUSKISSON said, so large a portion of the Speech of that it really was so. He again hoped Ilon. members would
his „Honourable Friend applied to the general question of the look at the question with a view to the general good, and with-
Slave Trade, and so small a portion of it to the motion of out regard to particular interests. lie concluded by moving a
which he had given notice, that he thought his Honourable Resolution, " That the Salt Tax should be continued, in order
Friend himself must be conscious, as the House must also to enable his Majesty's Government to relieve the country by
feel that it would have been more properly addressed to a partial reduction of the Window Tax, in the ensuing Session
_Ahem. when the great question to which it related was under' of Parliament" •
consideration. As the Honourable Gentleman had no prat- Mr. CARTWRIGHT seconded the Motion.
tical measure to propose in the present Session, he thought. AIr••DATENPcinTs Alr. D. GILBERT, the CIiANCELLOU
that qustion would be better left in the hands of the Execu- of the EXCHEQUER, and several other Members, rose, we be-
tive Government, and that the understanding come to with lieve, to oppose the motion;; but the call of the House was very
disturbed.
respect to, it ought not to belt was impossible general for
.not to agree with the observations of his Hon. Friend on free The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, who apolo-
and on compulsory labour in the abstract;. but on this subject gised for his wish to obtain the assent of the other Hon. Mem-
bethought it better not • •
would not enlarge, as lie . , considering hers to his having precedence, as he wished to state his opinions
the situation in which the 'West India question had been left, on this motion in the first instance, and without any reserve.
ed to debate it
and as the House could not be prepar . , the Ho.. The House:would recollect, that very early in the Session he
nourable Gentleman hating said nothing in hisi) notice which had stated, that if a general feeling should appear to prevail
could lead them to that it would now be brought before in Parliament in favour al retaining this Tax, and repealing
them. His lion. Friend had argued that it was this rule of another in its stead, he thought it would be very desirable
the rule, taste labour in the West Indies which made distress le, to act upon that feeling, and Government would not have
and prosperity the exception. He had gone into what
His-
the least objection to do so. But he must state that at the
.
been advanced on this subject by Bryan Edwards in his present, Government, as far as they went, were now pledged
were to follow to
tory and other matter, through which, if he . the repeat —(Clieers from the Opposition.)—By that pledge
him, and over the prosperity and the distress experienced in they most anti would abide, unless there should be a very
ave to strong the West Indies during the last forty years, lie shottld.h feeling.displayed throughout the house in favour of
enter upon a very wide field indeed. Assuming, h
owever,
the tax. He'had seen no symptom of any such feeling;
• and
the premises of his Honourable Friend, as distress Was ad- lie believed his Hon. .Friend must himself be aware that no
alitted to exist in the West Indies, he was not prepared at. such feelimr,,really eztisted. He was well aware that the sub-
present- to, deal out a measure which would have the imine- jec_t. was attended with many difficulties ; and, as far as his own
diate effect-of
_aggravating the evils of which they complain- individual opinion went, he thought that the tax ought either to
ed. The Right Honourable Gentleman proceeded to show be raised, so as to
Imake it an object of consideration in point
that the' Hon. Gentleman's information with respect to the of revenue, or to be so lowered as to do away with the neces-,
amount of the drawback allowed in certain cases, was not cox.- city of what were called exemptions.--( Hear!)--These exemp-
ted. The present law was enacted in 1606, when a Noble tions caused most of the evils which were complained of. The
.31arquis, now in the other House, was Chancellor of the Ex- i sole question was, whether his Hor. Friend had shewn any
Chequer, who had, found a duty fluctuating with the price in- ' advantage which would attend the retaining; of the tax, and
,:convenient, and it was in cor:setinence of this th4t the draw-1 would also outweigh that advantage which the Ilouse had al-
back, when the price of Sugar was 175., way ready d.!clared would attend the rtpetel of it.--(hear, im rI)
calculated on

His Hon. Friend, in the course of his speech, had so often al-
luded to the opposition which he expected to meet, that it was
clear he (lid not expect the g-eneral opinion of the House to be
in his favour. lie had thought it right to take the first oppor-
tunity of stating the view which Government took of the ques-
tion__( Loud cheers)--and he now trusted his Hon. Friend would
withdraw his motion..

Several lion. Members again rose to speak ;. but the call for
Mr. WODEHOUSE was almost universal, and those Hon. Mem-
bers accordingly gave way to him.
Mr. WOODHOUSE said he felt himself at a loss what
course he ought to pursue. Ile. thought he should be rude If
he did not give Hon. Members an opportunity of replying to
him.—(Cries of " No, no.")
After a few words from Mr. CAnTWltleinT, the motion was
withdrawn, amid the loud cheers off. e House.

SALARIES OF PUMA!: OFFICERS.
Mr. R. MA WEIN rose to bring forward his promised mo-
tion respecting the increase of the salaries of Judges and other
Public Officers. It was generally admitted that the great Offi-
cer* of State were underpaid ; but then it was said that there
were many who were willing to undertake the duties of the
offices at the same salaries. He did not think this was a sound
argument against the increase of their salaries, and thus to con-
tinuing to press Hon. Gentlemen upon the expenditure of their
private fortunes. Ile therefore moved—" That the House
should resolve itself into a Committee to consider the expedi-
ency of augmenting the salaries of the public Officers of State
to a scale which shall be consistent with the dignified discharge
of their ditties, and the liberal character of the nation."
The SPEAKER having inquired who seconded the motion,
and no seconder appearing—
Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that of course he did not rise to
second the motion, so far as it might ba understood to refer to
the salaries of the Secretaries of State.—(A laugh.)--Indeed
he did not riae.to second the motion at all, but merely to inform
the House that a very important subject, which was included
in the motion was already under the serious consideration of
Government; He alluded to the salaries of the Jrlges.—
(Hear, hear, hear !)—Their salaries were not adequate ; and,
such as they _ were, some of them were derived from the
sale of the offices belonging to their Courts, and others from
the different pleadings and ,other proceedings which took place-
in tlee Courts themselves. ;Ile believed there would be but,.
one opinion on the propriety of the Judges being so remune-
rated, that their salaries abotild 'neither be precarious, nor
derived in the emallest'degree from the proceedings in their
own Courts.—(Hear, hear, hear !)-IS'ith regard to the amount
of the salaries, though there might possibly he some differ-
ence 'of opinion on this point, he believed the House would
agree that the amount should be such as to induce the ablest
men of the liar to relinquish their lucrative practice and aspire
to the honourable situations on the Bench.—( Hear, hear !)—lle
repeated that the subject was under the consideration of the
Government, and that lie should probably soon be enabled to
bring it under that of the House in a proper form.
Mr. H 013110 USE said he should certainly oppose any mo-
tion of the nature alluded to by the Right lion. Secretary,
unless it should be connected with a measure to prevent the
advancement of a Judge already on the Bench.—(Hear, hear !
from the Opposition.)—He had no wish to allude to any parti-
cular case which had called for his determination on this sub-
ject. It was not indeed his wish to make any personal obser-
vations, but as the _Right 'Non. Secretary had appeared to cal-
relate almost upon an 'unanimity of opinion, and as there were
many Hon. Members who agreed with him (Mr. H.) on this
subject—(ll ear 1 from the Opposition)—he had thought it right
to give the Right Hun. Secretary fair warning, that he might
nut rely entirely upon that supposed unanimity of opinion.
Mr. LESTER trusted that the proposal for the increase of
the salaries would be accompanied by a proposal for a third
Assize.

Mr. It. MARTIN said • the motion would have been second-
ed by several Members had they not gone away.----A laugh.)
Sir JOHN VIROTTESLEV was about to speak, when he
was called to order by 31r. BANICES, there being no question
before the House; and, after a few words from the Sl'IL AY EU
on the point of order, the motion fell to the ground for want of
a seconder.