The Sun.
London, England, 1841-04-27 00:00:00

self to say that at the-outside there are not 30,000. That
year only 1,200 had been added to the constituency, and
it requires no exorbitant stroch of the imagination to
conceive that, under your Bill, the county constitu-
ency can scarcely reach 30 000 " These were the ex-
pressions of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman,
and of the Honourable Member for Kilkenny. He
( Lord Stanley) admitted to the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman with regard to the county constituencies the Re-
form Act introduced a very great change. But he looked
to the borough constituencies and the canstitucncies of
counties, of cities, and of towns, for the great increase of
the constituencies. His Right Hon. Friend the Member
for the University of Dublin and the Hon. and Learned
Recorder for Dublin, both of them in opposing the Bill
said that they did not calculate upon much increase in
the county constituencies, but they did with regard to
cities and boroughs. Those were the anticipations of
both parties of those who supported and those who op-
posed the Reform Bill, and neither side anticipated any
great increase in the county constituencies of Ire-
land. The result was that in 1833 under the
excitement of the Reform Bill, when all parties
were rushing to the booths to assert their claims, sod
when their claims were admitted with very little considera-
tion and very little opposition, because there was little of
a political struggle on one side, the number of the county
constituency in Ireland was 57,000. From that period
up to the present time it was impossible it should have
happened without any double registration—without any
person being registered over again—without any voter
being struck off over and over again—it was quite clear
that the nominal constituency must go on increasing till
the first octennial revision. It was 57,000 in 1633 ; it
was 64.000 in 1835; it was 73.000 in 1837 ; and it was
99.000 in 1839. But from what did this arise? From
the constant succession of names put on during the course
of these years, while not a single name could be
struck off. Moreover, a great number of the 57,000
who were on the registry in 1833 reappeared in 1830,
and swelled the constituency to an enormous amount. Ia
the course of last year, in consequence of the lapse of tim-,
at one swoop 57.000 were struck off, and the constituency
reduced to 42,000. At the present moment the consti-
tuency exceeded what it was the first year after the pa-s-
-ing of the Reform Act, and fall only 6 000 or 7,000 short
of the number it was after two years working, namely, in
1835. Looking at the places where a great decrease in
the number of voters had taken place he found that on the
falling in of the first batch of voters parties did not rene.v,
inasmuch as there was no contest and no political excite-
ment to lead men to renow their votes. He found that in
eleven counties where a decrease had taken place no contests
had taken place of late—namely, Antrim, Armagh. Cla e,
Down, Galway, Limerick, Londonderry, Mayo, Roscom-
mon, Waterford, and,Wexford ;—in those counties neither
one party nor the other being in the ascendant. In these
counties there was a deficiency of 11,000 voters, and
consequently in the remaining counties, as compared with
1835, only two Sessions after the passing of the Reform
Bill, there was an actual incre sac of 4,000 or 5,000,
comparing the numbers at present on the registry
with the numbers on it at that period. He did
not mean to say that a diminution of the consti-
tuency in Ireland was not g ting on—what he said
was, there was no proof of it. He had reason to be-
lieve that many landlords were withholding leases, not
on political grounds but for the purposes of improve-
ment. It' that cause were decreasing the constituencie
then the amendment of his Noble Friend was the proper
remedy; it was the legitimate and proper mode of nieet ng
what he would consider a great evil. He concurred es
most of the opinions enunciated by his Noble Friend,
and when it was shown to hint that there was any alarming
decrease in the constituencies of Ireland from such a cause,
he would seek a remedy, but most certainly not that of the
Government, who seemed to say, that because one gentle-
man refused to grant lea.ee they would give the power to
six other proprietors to give the franchise to persons with-
out any sort of property.—( Cheers.) As at present ad-
vised be could not assent to the necessity of any augmen-
tation or alteration in the constituencies of Ireland. His
Noble Friend had been very successful in exposing the ab-
surdity, he might say, at all events, the want of consideration
shown in the plan of the Government, and his Noble
Friend the Secretary for Ireland had had some success i
exposing the proposition of his Noble Friend the Member
for Northern berland.—( A laugh.) He would vote for
neither the one or the other proposNon, but if he were
called upon to do so, he was prepared to give his voice for
the amendment, in opposition to the undigested plan of
the Government.—( Loud cheers.)
Mr. O'CONNELL bad not intended to take any part
in that discussion, because he thought it was merely a
question of detail ; but he had been driven from his envied
silence by some observations which had fallen from the
Noble Lord. Although there were 52,000 voters on the
register in 1833, yet he had before stated that only from
26,000 to 28,000 would be available as substantial voters,
and he had stated that the Noble Lord's Reform Bill
would not add more than 2,000 to that number; but it
was to be remembered that that was in 1832, and before
the 10/. chattel occupation was introduced—that clause
accounted for the augmentation which had taken place.
The Noble Lord had talked of the constituencies of Ire-
land not perishing in Ireland. Why, the county
constituencies were now 20,891 fewer than in 1835 ;
the city and town constituencies had increased, and by
that means the loss on the aggregate was reduced to 7,500.
The Hon. Gentleman then entered into a comparison and
contrast of the population and constituencies of counties in
Ireland with those of Ene'and, which bas often appeared
in our columns. He had sbown that there was no equality
whatever between the two countries, and he would ask
why they did not restore the 40s. freehold franchise to
Ireland, and so far put her on an equality with England
They might go on insulting Ireland as they pleased, but
he would tell them that Ireland perfectly understood the
injustice done her, and fully felt the contempt with which
she was treated by that House.—( Cries of " Divide.")
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was anxious to say a very few
words before the House went to a division. He was ex-
tremely sorry, fr mi the tone of the debate, to see that there
was no prospect of the House coming to an arrangement
for deciding the important question of the franchise in Ire-
land. Their position was this—ln the discussion respect-
ing the Irish registration there was a very general impres-
sion that noregiitration would place the franchise in Ireland
upon a satisfactory footing unless it was properly defined so
as to settle the contradictory decidons, and the extremely
irregular practices which prevailed in consequence. The
Bill of the Government proposed to define the franchise.
His opinion was the same as that of his Noble Friend
who introduced the Bill—that a tenure of fourteen years,
with a 5/. rating to the Poor-rate, was a franchise which
would have given the right of voting to persons of pro-
perty in Ireland, and, at the same time, would have been
so extensively diffused as to have given general sari-fac-
tion. He did think, and he had stated to the House
when he proposed to adjourn the Bill, that it was of such
immense importance to obtain, if possible, an agreement
on questions of this kind, and not to continue for another
year the discontent which, he said at the time, naturally
arose from the menace held out last year to disfranchise
the people of Ireland.—( Hear, heir.) He then said
that he thought it was worth while to be subject to the
taunts which were made against Ministers, and in which
-sea his Hon. Friend the Member for indulged—
( Hear, hear)—and to depart from what they had origi-
nally proposed. They had thought it worth while
to incur those taunts, and to indulge the hopes--
illusory as they now seemed to be..-_( Ch. ecirs)—
that they might bring the contention to a close. —( Cheers. )
Although the attempt had failed, he did not regret that
he had made it.—(Hear, hear.) He had thought it his
duty to subject himself to any sarcasms of the kind. with
which he had been visited, in order, if possible, to retrieve
what he conceived to be the unfortunate error committed
by a great party in that House.—( Cheers.) It had been
his opinion, and still was so, that the people of Ireland had
suffered much, that they had suffered things which he
would not now attempt to describe, but which had been
described in stronger terms, than perhaps he would use, by
the Hon. Member for Newark.—( Hear, bear.) He had
thought that if over it could be possible that a time should
arrive in which they should have no question before Par-
liament which should put in conflict the passions of differ-
ent parties in Ireland, if it could arrive at an interval of
tranquillity, to enable men, intent on the gains of industry,
on the improvement of agriculture, and the ex-
tension of commerce, to give their attention to
those pursuits, and to i.e diverted, for some time
from politcal contest, he thought he would obtain
for that country a great benefit.—( Hear, hear.) But it
now appeared to a great party in the House, that this was
not the course which should be taken.—(Cheers.) It
appeared to them better to raise questions which gave them
party majorities—(Cheers)—and gave them triumphs in
the coulee of the Session—( Cheers)—which majorities
and triumphs, everyone, excited more and m 're the ange ,
the indignation, and the feeling of wrong dune in the
minds of the people of Ireland.—( Cheers.) He had been
in hopes, however, that by sacrificing something of his
own opinions, that the House generally, or a great part of
it, would concur in some law which would again alit), the
storm that had been raised. It appeared that in that hope
he was entirely disappoinied.—( Hear, hear.) It appeared
from the speech of the Noble Lord, the Member for North
Lancashire, that if he voted for the amendment it would
be with a different view of its operation from that taken
of it by his Noble Friend who moved it, and because it
would promote the principle to which he (Lord Stanley)
adhered, namely, that of an inteiest above the
rent. Now, it was for that very reason, that
he (Lord Johu Russell) would oppose the amendment,
for be considered that if the House gave its sanction to that
construction of the franchise, the constituency would he
destroyed.—( Hear, hear.) What his Noble Friend in-
tended afterwards to ground upon this clause was, that the
in the passing of the Reform Bill, he believed that
that rent. who
paidwli a certain
aevm ntgrhetbeshotuhled
ternattied on 50/ beyondl
Parlia-
ment
the introduction of such a test at present would deprive a
large majority of the present electors of the right of voting.
Tne Noble Lord adhered to the definition given by the
Judges. Now be (Lord J. Russell) found it° fault with
that definition. The Judges said it was not for them
to look to what might have been the intention of
Parliament, but what appeared to them to be
e aiintend, o f
the legal interpretation of the wraerd
the
Act, It was their duty to give that interpretation ;
but this he thought was manifest, if that sense was to he
wouid g adopted, as
touchtli e
further Noble
proposition
d to
appeared
of his Noble
Friend the Member fir Northumberland to destroy the
franchises of at least one-half the present voters. The
Noble Lord had said, look to the state of the registry, for
the effect which the interpretation given by the Judges had°
had in reducnie the constituency ; but it was to be recol-
the' judges had decided
gevisime Barristers
lected that the decision of the Judges had not affected the
registry in every case. Some of i
in opposition to the majority, and the
had retained many votes which the majority of the Judges
would have struck off if they had come bef ire them. The
and defini'ive franchise.—( Hear, hear.) They would not,
question now was whether the House should adopt some clear
in fact, be able to maintain the Judges' interpretation with_
out destroying the existing Ceincei.e. He could not ag
that the introduction of these words by his Noble Frielid
the Member for Northumberland would be introductory of
his plan ; on the contrary, they would only serve to intro-
duce the plan of the Noble Lord opposite...(Cbeers.)