The Sun.
London, England, 1847-01-29 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY MORNING, JANUARY 29, 1847.

house with 150 more persons than it was built to accom-
modate. The petition prayed for inquiry and relief.
POOR-LAW REMOVAL.

Mr. BANKES presented petitions from several places
in Cornwall, praying for an immediate amendment or
total repeal of the Poor-law Amendment Act.
TEN HOURS' BILL.

Mr. BANKES also presented a petition from Bury
in favour of the Ten Hours' Bill.

TOBACCO DUTIES.
Dr. BOWRING gave notice that to-morrow it was
his intention to move for returns relative to the tobacco
duties. _ _

MONTPENSIER MARRIAGE.
Mr. FINCH said he would on an early day ask a
question of the Noble Lord the Secretary of Foreign
Affairs with respect to the correspondence which had
taken place between the Governments of England and
Spain'respecting the Montpensier Marriage.
MINISTERIAL MEASURES (IRELAND).
Mr. ROEBUCK said that he would move upon an
early day, as additions to the plan announced by her
Majesty's Ministers for relieving the existing distress
in Ireland—first, an appropriation of the revenues of the
Irish Church for the purposes of a more general and
extended education ; secondly, to extend the income
and property-tax to Ireland ; thirdly, to alter
the Poor Removal Act in such a manner as to
allow different parishes of England to send back to
their own parishes all Irish paupers, at the expense of
the several parishes to which they belonged.
POOR-LAW (IRELAND).
Mr. WILLIAMS gave notice that he would move
that the second reading of the Poor-law (Ireland) Bill,
and also the whole of its other stages, should take
precedence of all other measures under the considera-
tion of the House.
Lord G. BENTINCK gave notice that he should ask
fcr leave to bring in a Bill to stimulate the profitable
employment of the poor in Ireland, by the encourage-
ment of the construction of Irish railways.
OCCUPATION OF CRACOW. '
Mr. FIUME gave notice of his intention to move for a
copy of the notice or presentation made by the Russian
Envoy, dated the 10th of January, to the Court of
Switzerland, with respect to the federal contract of
Vienna, relative to the annexation of Cracow.
DISTRESS IN IRELAND.
Mr. ROEBUCK said lie should take that opportunity
of asking a question, of which he had already given
notice, of the Noble Lent at the head of the
Government. He assumed that the Noble Lord, in all
the schemes for the relief of distress in Ireland, must
have made some calculation—he did not mean to say a
very nice one—as to the probable amount of money re-
quired for that purpose ; and if the Noble Lord had
made that calculation as to the probable amount, he
must have fully entertained in his own mind some pro-
position, assisted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
with reference to the means of'raising the sums which he
required for that purpose.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL, in answer to the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, stated that up to the Ist January
the amount of money issued from the Exchequer was
one million. There had been at that moment an
additional million, so that altogether the amount
issued up to the present moment was two millions,
which would be expended under the Labour-rate Act.
With regard to the commissariat department, it was im-
possible yet to make anything like an accurate estimate.
Under the existing Act, however, if the expenditure
went on in the same ratio as at present, the out-
lay under the Labour-rate Act would not be
less than from 500,0001. to 600,0001. a month,
which up to August next might be calculated, in round
numbers, at seven millions. By the plan which the Go
vernment proposed to introduce, he apprehended that a
considerable reduction would take place in the expen-
diture under the existing Act—how much he
was not in a position to say. With regard to
the financial plan, he thought it was better to
reserve what he had to say on that point for a
separate financial statement : whether that statement
should be made before the ordinary time or not he could
not then say, bat ample time would be given to the Hon.
Gentleman.
Mr. ROEBUCK did not think that the Noble Lord
had given a clear answer to his question. He put it
with a view to ascertain the cost of all the plans, as he
was desirous to know the probable expenditure of the
whole plan.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—The Hon. Gentleman's
question referred only to the present expenses which
were incurred in Ireland, and, he believed, asked
what would be the probable expense of the improve-
ments made in that country. With the Honourable
Gentleman, he regretted that there had not been the
same advantage obtained from the employ-
ment of the money voted last session, but he
should recollect that the sum of 1,000,000/. was voted
under what was called the Drainage Act, and it was not
wise to complain of the provisions of that Act. But
with respect to the construction of that Act, he might
reply that it was not intended to alter either the time,
or the amount of interest, or the period at which the
principal was to be paid up, so that the provisions of the
Drainage Act remained unaltered.
PUBLIC WORKS IN IRELAND.

;Sir. S. O'BRIEN wished to ask the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet at the Head of the Home Department, whether it
was intended to alter the system pursued in the employ-
meat of labourers in the public works of Ireland?
Sir G. GREY said that there were, doubtless, many
abuses, but, from the nature of the circumstances,
would be impossible to prevent them ; as seen as pos-
sible a more strict supervision would be exercised, and
the system should be altered.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN—Was there any statement of the
money expended on the public works ?
Sir GEORGE GREY—The Hen. Member will find
them in the Treasury minutes.
IRISH PALTERS AND LUNATICS.

Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN moved for a return of the
number of paupers admitted into each workhouse in
Ireland during the year 1846 ; number discharged
durinc, same period ; number died during same period ;
number in house on each Saturday since the Ist day of
November, 1846, showing the number which each
workhouse was originaly constructed to receive ;
number ill of fever, of scarlatina, of dysentery,
or of contagious diseases, on each Saturday, showing
the number which the sick ward or hospital
attached to each workhouse was originally constructed
to receive; number who died daring each week since the
Ist day of November, 1846, distinguishing such as died
of contagious diseases in each workhouse, or in any
hospital or ward attached to such workhouse; number of
paupers affected with fever, or other fobrile contagious
diseases, transferred to any hospital under the fifteenth
clause of the Poor-law Amendment Act of 1843;
number of lunatics transferred to any lunatic asylum from
each workhouse during the years 1844, 1845, and 1846;
copies of all communications made by the Poor-law
Commissioners to boards of guardians on the sanatory
state of the workhouses; of any communications made
by boards of guardians to the Poor-law Commissioners,
or of minutes of proceedings of such boards, respecting
the prevalence of disease in workhouses; of any instruc-
tions given by the Poor-law Commissioners to any phy-
sicians or surgeons, to inquire into the nature and ex-
tent of disease in any workhouse, and into the cause of
such disease, together with the reports of such physi-
cians or surgeons thereupon.
THE QUEEN'S LETTER.
Mr. HAMILTON wished to know from the Right
Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of State for the Home
Department, whether the funds, which might be col-
lected in the different churches, through the Queen's
letter, would be administered to the starving poor of
Ireland, through the Commissioners who had been ap-
pointed, or whether they would be dispensed by the
clergy of the Established Church of Ireland ?
Sir G. GREY said it was the intention of the Go-
vernment that the funds so collected should be placed at
the disposal of the committee recently established in
London for affording relief to the destitute poor in
Ireland and Scotland, the members of which bore a
high character, which was a sufficient guarantee that
the funds would be properly applied. Many of them
were clergymen and members of the relief and local
committees, and as they mit in concert with the Govern-
ment, those who contributed to the fund would have the
satisfaction of knowing that the relief would be properly
dispensed.

on, was piratical, and that he would treat every British
or French officer that fell in his power after the manner
of pirates. This was not an empty threat. A British
officer of the name of Wardlow was seized upon while
under the protection of a flag of truce. He belonged to her
Majesty's ship Racer, and the whale-boat in which he had
been reconnoitering, having been stranded, he displayed
a flag of truce; it was answered by another, and he ac-
cepted the invitation like a gallant, frank sailor, as he
was, although it was against the advice of some of
his friends. He had not been long departed
when a whale-boat was seen advancing, and
the voice of the gallant officer was heard
shouting to his crew " I have been sold, I
have been sold, fire and defend yourselves." The crew
escaped and when Mr. Wardlow was demanded of the
authorities they replied that he had fallen in the skirmish.
Hisbody was then demanded—but they were ashamed or
afraid to give it up, lest their guilt:too becameknown. But
the whole truth had become known. Mr. Wardlori had
been taken before the commandant, and he had
told him that if he made his crew surrender it
would be the better for him. The gallant young
gentleman, however, chose rather deliberately
to sacrifice his own life for the sake of his crew and the
honour of his flag.—(Hear, hear.) Being brought back
to the commandant, he ordered him to instant execution.
First of all they cut off his fingers and ears, and then
put him to a lingering death.: His (Mr. R.'s) heart
swelled with emotion when ho thought of the fate of
that young man. He wished now, therefore, to know from
the Noble Lord whether, on the promulgation of the de-
cree of Rosas, any remonstrance had been made by the
Noble Lord; and secondly, whether any correspondence
had ensued, and with what result.
Lord PALMERSTON was sure the Hon. Gentle-
man would excuse him if he declined entering into any
discussion on the state of the nations bordering on the
River Plate. He hoped the steps now in progress would
lead to a satisfactory termination of the distressing state of
things which existed in that quarter. With regard to
the officer referred to, various statements had come to
his ears. One sated that he had been killed in a skir-
mish, and another gave a different account of the trans-
action, but that was the first time he (Lord Palmerston)
had heard of the mutilations described. In consequence,
however, of the representations made with respect to
the occurrence, the Admiralty did instruct Sir Thomas
Herbert, the admiral on the station, to make inquiry
into the ease, and to report upon it. That report he
had not yet received. With regard to the statement
alleged to be made in the proclamation of Rosas, that
an officer acting under the authority of his superiors
should be treated as a pirate, there was but one way, of
course, to deal with it.
CRACOW.

Mr. III: ME wished to ask the Noble Lord whether
he had any objection to lay on the table of the House a
copy of the whole of the papers that had passed with
respect to Cracow?
Lord PALMERSTON hoped to do so in the course
of a flay or two.
TREATY OF VIENNA.

Mr. HUME begged to ask whether the Noble Lord
had any objections to lay upon the table of the House a
copy of the convention that was entered into by the
Three Powers in 1834, which especially confirmed the
terms of the treaty of Vienna?
Lord PALMERSTON was not quite prepared, on the
part of the Government, to give an answer to the
question.
Mr. HUME.—Sorae such power had been given by
that convention to take possession of Cracow by the
three Powers.
Lord PALNIERSTON should have no objection to
give to the House all the information be possessed.
Mr. MONCKTON MILNES said, that at the same
time, perhaps, the Noble Lord would have no objection
to present to the House any papers that related to the
non-appointment of consuls at Cracow.
Lord PALMERSTON said that he had previously
stated to the House that it was inexpedient for the
public service to answer this question ; and the same
obstacles remain at the present moment, in consequence
of the relation to this country of the three Powers to
whom allusion had been nasde.
NAVAL ARCHITECTURE.

Lord INGESTRE wished to ask whether there was
any objection to lay on the table of the House any papers
that had been communicated with regard to the Com-
mittee of Naval Architecture? He also wished to ask
whether any report of the Committee of Reference had
been made to the Admiralty, and if so, whether there was
any objecti.m to lay that report on the table ? It would
be recollected that there were three members of that
board, and that two of them had been promoted ; he
wished also to ask whether, in the event of the ship
constructed by that board turning out successful, it was
intended to promote the third member, as they had pro-
moted the other two members of that board.
Mr. WARD said a similar question was put to him
the other night by his Hon. Friend the Member for
Montrose (Mr. Hume), who wished to move for returns
on the subject, and he told him, in reply, that the naval
reports in question had not yet been brought be-
fore the attention of the Admiralty, but he was
in a position to state that they would be very
satisfactory, and also that there would be no
objection to lay them on the table of the House. All
the reports that bad been received respecting the Thetis
bad been most satisfactory, as they were to the effect
that that ship would justify the expectations entertained
of her. He had much pleasure in informing the Noble
Lord that the Admiralty, without waiting for a confirma-
tion of this report, had removed Mr. Chadwick from
Devonport to the office of master shipwright at Wool-
wich. SEED FOR IRELAND.
Mr. TUITE inquired what steps the Government had
taken to obtain a supply of seed for Ireland.
Mr. LABOUCHERE could only refer to the declara-
tion made the other evening by the First Lord of the
Treasury, that it was the intention of Government to
afford every facility to supply seed to those persons for
whom it was intended; orders had been given to up-
wards of 200 persons to furnish the necessary supply.
With respect to the 50,000'., he could only say that if
it was found insufficient, it was competent for Parlia-
ment to make an:additional grant.
CONDITION OF CONVICTS IN THE HULKS
AT WOOLWICH. _ _ .

Mr. DUNCOMBE then rose to move for the appoint-
ment of a Select Committee to inquire into the condition
of convicts in the hulks at Woolwich. He said he had
been given to understand that it was the intention of the
Government to consent to the appointmen of the Com-
mittee. If he was correct in this assumption,
he would be saved from making painful state-
ments, and the House from hearing facts which
they could not fail to consider both distressing and dis-
gusting. He thought that the proper time to enter into
the question of prison discipline ; but, however, he
should confine himself this evening to a narration of
the cruelties of which he had to complain. He
thought those cruelties were of a nature to demand
such an inquiry as the one he sought. It might be
necessary to inform the House, in the first instance,
how those persons found their way to the hulks. The
report of Mr. Capper for 1845, together with the sur-
geon's report thereon, had been furnished to the House.
He stated that the prisoners from such del iks as
Woolwich and Portsmouth were in a bad and unhealthy
state, and unfit, from age and infirmities, to be sent abroad.
The hulks at Woolwich were established for what was
called "invalid prisoners," and he wished to call the
attention of the House to the medical neglect and cruel
treatment inflicted upon those prisoners: He was satis
fled that all the reports *hick had been issued upon that
subject were true, both as regarded the treatment of the
prisoners while living, and after death. This conduct
was disgraceful to a country calling itself anything like a
civilised and Christian country. In the returns to
which he had alluded, it was stated by the person
making that return that the mortality on board
the hulks in 1845 was only eleven persons. This
mortality was contrasted in a report with the amount of
mortality in the prisons of France, Philadelphia, and of
Millbank Penitentiary. This morning, however, a re-
turn, for which he had moved some time since, was
laid upon the table of that House, which would serue to
show the House the fraudulent manner in which these
returns were sometimes got up. The return for which
he had moved was a return of the number of persons
who died on board the hulks from the Millbank
prison alone, and instead of the number being
eleven, as stated in the former report, the
number of deaths on board the two hulks. the
Justitia and the Warrior, was twenty-eight from Mill-
bank prison alone. The question then arose, what was
the cause of this increased mortality on board the hulks
as compared with other prisons in the country ?
In all their prisons there were visiting magistrates and
inspectors, under Act of Parliament, who made anneal
reports, and went round and asked if any of the pri-
soners had any complaint to make. With regard to the
hulks, there was no one to ask if there seere any com-
plaints to be made, and no one visited them except
the doctor and Mr. Perry. Was it their object to re-
claim the prisoners, or to make an example of them?
If their object was to reclaim them, why was their
education totally neglected? There were no prayers,
and nothing was done for their spiritual instruction.
The ships received on the average 620 prisoners
every year, and during all that time the only
Divine service given was on Sunday mornings.
Nothing was done to instruct them—those able to work
went to the arsenal and dockyard in the morning and
returned in the evening. When they were dying they
received no attention. The chaplain seldom visited
them, and their last moments were passed with only
the assistance of the other prisoners. There was cer-
tainly the great protection of the coroner's inquest to
all individuals who died in prison. With regard to
the conduct of the medical attendant, Dr. Bois-
soy, he stood there to state that nothing could
be so neglectful as his conduct, and when he was
present nothing was more brutal. There was no one
except Mr. Capper, who was appointed by Government
as superintendent of the hulks. He had been in the
situation many years, but his control or inspection was
not sufficient, and his duties had been left to a nephew
of his, who acted as his clerk or superintendent, and
ho was a grocer in the Strand. This person had
done the duties which ought to have been performed
by Mr. Capper. He also complained of the system
of control, and the irresponsible power which the
overseers of these ships had over the prisoners.
He could scarcely conceive anything more unjust than a
power being vested in a body to inflict any amount of
corporsl punishment they wished ; and what rendered
this more unjust was that there was no tribunal to
which those who were suffering under the system
could appeal. He would give one or two instances
of the injustice arid cruelty of the system. There was a
poor lunatic named Hetherington on board the Justitia,
7b;ouhe2tovewdfT:lsitluoearnr:edadeterwled to receive several lashes, and was then
ordered to receive several more ; he was then re-
ye he ee
he
six
dmiattemptedden
nwo
who
oto
Lead
succeeda cd u t
been his n
brought
doi throat,ng
VospiO ntalm- ease'
, where theywgere,
necessarily co(b)nl
isg
du etdo
rteomtatiine

for a long time, to the loss of the service
in which they were engaged. Referring again to the
Justitia, he would mention the case of another poor
lunatic who had been ordered to receive two dozen.
These had not been all inflicted upon him
and the officer, whose duty it was to see their execu
tioner, said to him on seeing him shortly after, "I owe
you three dozen." There was another case of an
unfortunate lunatic who was lying in confinement
in all his filth, his urine, and his ordure.
The Hon. Gentleman proceeded to detail the bad treat-
naent experienced by Wm. Theobald, who also belonged
to the Justitia, and who suffered from epileptic fits and
great weakness of body. Jams Brandish, a maniac, and
Cooper, a nurse in the establishment, who had a bad
liver complaint and a bag of matter lying at the pit of
his stomach, also met with the harshest treatment.
Mr. Alderman HUMPHREYS asked if the cases
might not be over-coloured ?
Mr. DUNCOMBE saki that he had authority for all
he stated ; and, with respect to the last case, the unhappy
individual declared at his last moments that he was a
murdered man. Henry Driver, a Milbank pri-
soner, entered the hospital, on the 21st of May, and
died upon the 26th, four days afterwards. When he
died he was taken down to the anatomy-room and
dissected, and his entrails were thrown into the river.
When the dissection was over the vacuum was filled up
with flannel, and sewn up in order to await the

coroner's inquest to sit upon it.—(Hear, hear.)
Now he would ask the Right Honourable Gentleman
was that legal, was it not against the provisions of the
Anatomy Act, in which it was provided, that forty-eight
hours must elapse before dissection takes place, and
more particularly so when a coroner's inquest is to take
place. No medical man attends these unfortunate
beings in their dying moments—all was left
to the judgment of convict prisoners, for the chaplaiu
never visits the sick. These nurses watch them with the
eyes of hawks, and as soon as life is extinct, the yet
warm body is drawn out and laid upon the floor, when
the bed is ransacked for money, or other articles which
they may have concealed. Now, he would ask, was it
right that these unfortunate creatures should be thus
exposed ? They were entitled to a portion of their
earnings, he did not know how much, but he believed
it was about sixpence a week, and this was the
prey for which these nurses waited. He asked the
Right Honourable Gentleman had he any idea that
these things were done, or whether they could
exist if there were a proper system of inspec-
tion. There is a feeling among those unfortunate
creatures that they are allowed to die for the sake of
their bodies for the School of Anatomy. He wished
that a return would be given by the Inttpector of Ana-
tomy as to the number of bodies that had been sent from
the hulks at Woolwich, and their places of destiration.
He would prove that Dr. Bossy, when a coroner's in
quest was about to sit, went round to the convicts and
told them not to answer any questions which might be
put to them by the coroner or jury, but to
refer them to him (Dr. Bossy) for an answer.
dNhvieaelsdie.avteadßteUdtthtlitot et
be
eiat a 2•81,:, fromasa nd,
41.
ft hr
eelmi 1 alpsvrtaisrveatNt.ueerrn)i
ns
The medical officer had stated, that amongst the 600
persons employed in the hulks at Woolwich, only 11 had
, f
po
rt. thes
ai
bt ni l
oeu
nn:t beat
hea
ert
future returns might make a change in this statement,
but it was quite impossible, after what he had stated to
the House, that these returns made to Government, by
the medical officer, could be at all relied on, as re-
spected the convicts at Woolwich.—(hear, hear.) If
they granted him the Committee, and the facts were
proved, which he had alleged in the House that
night, and he would undertake to prove those facts.
if it were granted, it was quite impossible that this
system could continue, or that the returns of Mr. Capper
could be received by the Admiralty, or that they could
long continue to he received as authentic documents. Ile
should conclude by moving for the appointment of a Se-
lect Committee to investigate the returns made to the
Admiralty of the number of convicts who had died at
Woolwich during the last year?
On the motion being put,
Sir G. GREY said that under the present circum-
stances, he was quite unable to follow the
Honourable Gentleman through his details, but
he did agree with him, that if there
was any foundation for these details, that they
were quite unworthy of a Christian country. He must
at the same time say that he bad made the utmost in-
quiry into the conduct of the medical officers at Wool-
wich Dockyard, and so far as he could ascer-
tain there was not the slightest foundation for
the serious statements which had been made to-night.
The Hon. Gentleman had spoken of corporal punish-
ments. In a conversation which he had with his Right
Hon. Friend the Secretary for the Admiralty, he had
learned that the reports lately given them had only been
one corporal punishment inflicted during the last 4 years.
The Hon. Gentleman had gone over his points without
giving him any previous notice of either their nature
or details, and, of course, he had come there un-
prepared to meet the statements of the Honourable
Member. At all events, however, if the Honour
able Gentleman would supply him with the names
of the parties who vouched for the accuracy of his state-
ment, the Hon. Gentleman might rely upon the matter
being fully investigated. At present, however, he could
not accede to the motion of the 'Honourable Gentle-
man, and, after the exaggerated statements which,
it had turned out, ft, former petition contained
on this subject, he trusted Government would not be
. taunted with refusing Committees in the face of serious
and revolting accusations brought against particular
public officers. It was impossible to speak of Mr.
Capper in other terms than those of high eulogy, as he
had devoted from forty to fifty years of his life to that
department of the Government which had the manage.
ment of the convict establishments. It was the
intention of the Government to introduce a
Bill which would provide for the employment of
convicts under as vigilant inspection as that employed
in the various prisons of the City. If the Honourable
Gentleman would furnish him with the par-
ticulars of the cases which he had stated to
investigation, but it would
the House, or of others which might come with-
intute an inquiry unless it
his own knowledge, he would institute
were grounds for making
hear.) He hoped he would allow him at
clear
iwattlio.eltr, en:blloeset3r,
all events to institute an inquiry in the way he proposed.
wellar
h searchingtaot a
tinhndes
rt rigidie
He hoped, therefore, the House would not accede to the
appointment of the Committee which the Hon. Gentle-
man had moved for.
Lord MAHON said, as the Hon. Member had brought
forward charges without furnishing his authorities. He
could not expect her Majesty's Government to concur
in the appointment of a Committee. He ought to rest
satisfied with the assurance of the Right Hon. Baronet
that he would order an ample inquiry into the
circumstances which he had detailed to the House.
He must say, with respect to the system of the hulks, as
hitherto conducted, it was in every one respect deficient;
and as a proof of that, he would refer to the fact of
the re-imprisonment of many any en offender after dis-
missal. If the House would refer to a report presented in
1842, by Mr. Capp ,
er the superintendent, they would
find that the total number of prisoners confined at the
beginning of that year was less than 1,625, who had
been previously convicted fori various offences, and 487
known to have been before n custody. There were only
1,450 who were not known tohave been in prisons be-
fore, and from this number mustbe again deducted those
who had been imprisoned under ilfferent names, and had
assumed an dlias. That spokte volumes against the sys-
tem ; but it was premature o
_d,isc.uss the question until
be the It:ght Hon. Gentleman
the papers promised j
the table. He would only say,
should have been laid on
Hon.
in resisting the motion of the Member for Fins-
bury, that he was not
to be supposed to support the
system of the hulks if '
be voted Be favour of the Govern-
ment on the present occasion.
Mr. AG LIONBY said he was by no means in favour
of the hulk
but at the same time that he made
that statement system,
he was very glad
to hear that the system
,1 ,1 and although •
e amended, it was
had been in some degre
he was glad
admitted that there were abuses, he
the Right
to hear
chat inquiries were to be
made.to divide Hon.
Member should feel it his duty , the House, he
r occasions, divide with him.
He on this, as on forme
Ile did not mean to impugn the conduct ofthe
Hon. Member in his place
Hon. Baronet, but when at?
h h
ription, e must ave stisfied
made charges of this desc .
happy to 11 • when it i lieated
himself of their correctness, hear rn
men by name. He was b,PPY to . that there
would be a commission to inquire into t.his case.—(Cries
he had been misled by the allu-
of " No no.") Well,
sion made to a commission by the Right Hon. Baronet
which
with reference to the Penitentiary , and_ he un-
derstood
by parallel reasoning.would be grantedtat in this
case. His objection to a commission was,
beh it would
not admitted.
be private, and the public press would
Who were interested in having this committee
see thought that
it the parties accused, or the public ? IT
both were interested in having the matter sifted
el he
(as he theb
bottom. Even in justice to Dr. Bos'
connected withY e
he was called), and the other parties
him, he thought that the truth of these statements
ought to be investigated, for surely they 11ETC
as much
I
interested as any parties in the country. lie
heard the knew no.
thing of this case whatever ; he had never
names of the parties, and the only ground on which he
voted for inquiry was, justice to all, by a public and im-
mediate investigation. What object could there be in
the Right Hon. Baronet's refusing this ? He (Mr.
Aglionby) confessed that he would rather that the Hon.
Member for Finsbury had supplied the Right Hon.
Baronet with the dates and particulars of this case, at
the same time concealing the names of the accusers.
But even then all that the Right lion. Baronet would
have done, would have been to have sent down these
allegations, that they might be investigated ; and, if
possible, contradicted ; and he would have laid that
contradiction on the table of the House, and expressed
his belief in the truth of it. He should certainly divide
with the Hon. Member for Finsbury, if he pressed the
House to a division.
Mr. WAKLEY said that after the statement which
his Hon. Colleague had made he was bound in justice to
press his motion to a division. His colleague had said
that he believed the statements that had been made ;
how could he then fail in pressing his motion? He con
fessed he was surpri, ed and disappointed with the obser
vations of the Right Hon. Baronet. He thought it was
not for any Hon. Member to go to a Government office,
and there make statements which would be better ex
pressed in his place in Parliament. He could not forget
that when his lion. Colleague had brought the abuses of
the Post-office before the House last session that ,
the principal witness before the committee, a per-
son named Mitchell, was dismissed after he had
held 'eis office for ten years, and no fault had '
been found with him. His Hon. Colleague asserted that
in the treatment of these prisoners every point of the
law had been violated. He (Mr. Wakley) confessed
that he could not believe what had been stated with
respect to the medical officers.— (Laughter.) But if
he did not believe that, it nag no reason why an iuquirs
should not be demanded. (Sue half of the allegation i

which had been made by his Hon. Colleague should be
enough to justify an investigation, even if the other halt
were unfounded. The Right Hon. Baronet said that he
knew nothing whatever of this matter, he had not heard
of it before. It was the more necessary, there-
fore, that he should grant an inquiry.—(Hear.)
The Hon. Member had made these statements, and his
public character was at stake.—(Hear, hear.) It would
be monstrous, when so many helpless creatures were
looking to that House for protection, that that protection
to which they had a right to look should be now withheld.
—(Hear, hear.) So zealous were our predecessors with
regard to inquests held upon the bodies of persons who
died in prison, and so careful were they to guard against
the injurious prejudice of the authorities, and in order to
prevent any deception or collusion between the parties,
that they always ordered that the jury ap-
pointed to inquire into the death of the prisoner
should be constituted of one-half prisoners, and the other
half being composed of the inhabitants of the neighbour-
hood. He, therefore, entirely di,aproved of the propo-
sition to appoint a Commission consisting entirely of the
authorities, to inquire into the subject. His Hon. Col-
league had said that many persons had died on board
the hulks upon whom no inquest had been held, and he
(Mr. Duncombe) further stated, that the conduct of the
medical officer was cruel, and brutal in the highest

degree. Was that man, then, to remain in his
position without inquiry. It was due to the medical
officer himself, if to none other, that an inves
tigation should take place. He, therefore, ear-
nestly entreated, the flight Honourable Baronet
the Secretary of State for the Home Department to
reconsider the opinions to which he had given expres-
sion. It was the duty of the House to institute an
inquiry when such charges were brought before the
attention of the House. What were the duties of the
independent members of this House unconnected by
any of the ties of any party or of the Government, if
they were not to inquire into such cases ? This House
was the great inquest of the nation, and should not be
backward in the performance of its duty. He would
repeat that he would not be satisfied with any
inquiry instituted by authorities. They were
never satisfactory ; everything was softened down
or extenuated, and the final result was, the House was
satisfied, and did not consider any further investigation
necessary. The House would fail to fulfil those duties
which it owed to the most helpless of their fellow-crea-
tures, if it OM not grant the committee required by his
Hon. colleague.
Mr. B. ESCOTT thought that the public would not
he satisfied if the House refused to grant the committee.
It was stated that immoral practices existed in Wool-
wich Hospital. Under these circumstances he should
certainly vote for the present inquiry. He hoped
that Honourable Members would abstain from
passing any opinion upon a report presented only that
morning, and he was surprised that it should have been
presented so suddenly to the House, without any com-
ment from the Government.

Sir GEORGE GREY said that it was only because
it was desirable that the matter should be brought before
the House at as early a period as possible.
Mr. FERRAND said that he quite agreed with
the opinion of the lion. Member for Finsbury as to
the Commissioners being generally trumped up. It
was well known, that if a Commission was appointed
to inquire into any statement, that it would be done
only in private, and how could it be supposed that the
public would be satisfied with this mode of proceeding?
Mr. HUME—It was most desirable that that House
should come to some decision on this question. It was
said by the Right Hon. Baronet, that considering the
number of persons interested, and that the charges were
so grave that it would be only right for the Right Hon.
Baronet to allow that Committee, he thought, there-
fore, that that inquiry should take place.—(Hear, hear.)
On that ground he thought the House ought to institute
this inquiry, and that fully sufficient and strong reasons
had been adduced in support of the motion, and he
trusted that, as the lion. Member for Finsbury had es-
tablished the grounds of his application, that the
Government would not refuse the Committee.
Mr. MUNTZ said that no attempt whatever had been
made to answer the charges of the Hon. Member for
Finsbury, and the medical men had never attempted a
reply. The Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the
Home office, might be satisfied that if he refused the
inquiry, the feelings of the public would be enlisted in
favour of the convicts. For his part, he thought that
the medical men perpetrated quite as bad things as other
men—(Laughter)—and lie trusted that the medical men at
Woolwich would not be sheltered under the Govern-
ment wing, but that the perpetrators of those enormi-
ties would be given up, and that the Government would
agree to this Committee, and that the delinquents would
be given up by the authorities; and he did hope thst
this investigation would be permitted.
Sir W. JAMES thought that such accusations as this
should not be lightly brought against such respectable
persons as Mr. Capper; and he conceived, that when
such grave charges as these were to be made, that some
intimation should have been given to the Government
and to the parties concerned, as also that full informa-
tion should have been furnished tothe Right Hon. Gentle-
man the Secretary for the Home Department. It was
well known that the Hon. Member for Finsbury was in
the habit of making these charges, and that he was par-
ticularly fond of clap-trap speeches such as he had
made that night. Had he Cully considered the subject,
he would never have made such statements as these. Yet,
notwithstanding the desire which he felt that this Com-
, mittee should have been moved for in a different
. manner, he trusted the Government would grant it;
but he warned them, that if granted, it would lead, it
the charges of the Hon. Gentleman were established, tc
an entire abolition of the system.
Mr. OW EN STANLEY perfectly agreed that if the
things stated in this allegation were proved, and if the
facts with respect to Jacob Dodge were made out as
they were stated to be last year and were substantiated,
this commission ought to be instituted, and that the
report of the commissioners was not satisfactory to the
House. But yet, in granting this inquiry, they ought to
be careful to substantiate the facts asserted, while at the
same time he would desire that the results of this inves-
tigation should bring out the whole of the circumstances,
and that they would support the assertions cf the Hon.
Member.
Mr. EWART thought that this inquiry more imme-
diately concerned the military department, but he did
say that on an occasion like this, when an independent
Member of Parliament produced such reasons, and ad-
duced such facts as those which had been stated by the
Hon. Member for Finsbury, this inquiry ought to be
granted, and he should therefore vote for the granting
of this Committee.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said, that if the principle which
the Right Hon. Secretary had ventured to lay down were
to be acted upon, no independent Member of that House
would dare to make a statement that was not guaranteed
by some such authority. For his own part, he thought
it was quite sufficient that an independent Member of
that House made out a prima facie case for inquiry to en-
title him to the committee which he sought. The Right
Hon. Gentleman had asserted that he was in the habit
of making assertions without sufficient proof, and had
brought forward the case of the Milbank Penitentiary.
The commission had only this morning made its report,
and therefore it was utterly impossible to make any ob-
servations upon it. He would only remark that this com-
mission consisted of Lord Chichester Lord Seymour, and
Mr. Bickham Eecott, and the report was signed by only
two out of three of the Commissioners, and he was per-
fectly content to rely upon the report of the Commis
sioners themselves, for a justification of the charges
which he had brought against Mr. Capper, and for the
statements which he bad made. He was quite willing
to stand by the facts which had been pnblishep, and he
was quite ready to rely on the report which had been
published for the justification of the statements which
as an an independent Member of that House, he had
made in his place in Parliament. And if such a privi-
lege as he assumed were to be denied to independent
Members of the House, there would be an end to those
investigations which could only be substantiated by the
evidence to bo adduced before such committees
as that which he now sought. With re-
sped to the committee on post-office affairs
it should be recollected that the evidence had
never been made public, and therefore the pnblic were
altogether in the dark as to whether the statements
which he (Mr. Duncombe) had made were substantiated
or not, but it was evident that this investigation had
been useful, and that the statements which he had made
were borne out by the fact, that it was understood that,
the power given for opening letters was to be abolished,
and he thought that the secret espionage ought also to
be done away with. The Hon. Gentleman had said,
that these statements ought not to be made, without a'
communication having been previously made to the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home
Department. They had had such a communication
with the Home Secretary, and nothing had re-
sulted from it ; but he repeated that a strict com-
pliance with the rule would entirely destroy the
rights of an independent Member of Parliament.
With respect to Mr. Capper, he would repeat, that he
believed that Mr. Capper had not done his duty, how-
ever much he regretted that circumstance. It a com-
mission were to be appointed, he hoped the Right Hon.
Gentleman would be made one member and himself an-
other, and himself the chairman. He should conclude
by moving that a Select Committee be appointed to in-
vestigate the condition of the convicts at Woolwich,
and to ascertain the number of deaths that occurred
amongst them during the last year.
Sir G. GREY explained that he had had a communi-
cation with the Hon. Member for Finsbury, but could
not at that time pledge the Government to enter upon
the investigation which he desired.
The House then divided.
On the re-entrance of strangers to the gallery the
numbers were ascertained to be—
For the motion 44
Against it
77
Majority
CHARGES AGAINST THE LATE SECRETARY
FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT.
Mr. FERRAND then roso to bring forty
ard the mh-
tion of which he had given notice, relative to certain
charges which he intended to make against the late Se-
oretary for the Home Department.H e had to pray the
House for an inquiry into the truth of the allegations
he had to snake, and be asked the indulgence of the
House while he endeavoured to bring
.before its notice
the grounds on which he asked for this inquiry.
"Monstrum, herrendum, informeeit the late Secretaryagens cui lumen adeptum."
of
In 1944 the Right Hon. Baronet
State for the Home Department did him what he felt,
and what he would feel to the hour of hlie biserdieelaethd,thtaot
he
an act of the most cruel injustice.
would that evening be able to convince the House that
he was justified in making use of language he had at
the meeting at Leeds, and that when he refused to justify
that language in the House, he did so because he felt
that by no right could he be called upon in that House
remarks which he might
to answer or to justify any
make out of doors when examining into the public con-
duct of a public officer. Fie did not intend to enter that

e, ening into theconsiderationof the new poor-law, for the
House would have ample opportunity at a future period to
discuss these questions, but he must be allowed to say,
that nothing convinced him more of the rottenness of its;
principle or its debasing effects upon the food of this
country than that it received its death-blow in a poor-
house squabble. It had its origin in a dark document,
and until that document was dragged into the light of
day, its existence was denied, not only in that House,
but in other places. So effectually had that law carried
out the intentions of its authors, that in the union houses

it not only induced the poor to live on the coarsest food,
but it had degraded them, that they not only eat the
carrion, but they fought for the stinking bones which
they were grinding for the fields. No wonder,
then, that a new spirit had arisen up
throughout the country until even the defenders of the
measure was compelled to admit that the law as it
stood could no longer be enforced, and their must be a
remodelling of the system. He could tell the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government, that no remodel-
ling of this system would satisfy the people of this coun-
try, for they would never rest till justice was done to
their feelings by a total repeal of this infamous and
cruel law. In bringing forward to the notice of this
House the motion which he had placed on the votes, he
would endeavour to show first of all what had been the

opinion of the Poor-law Commissioners themselves as
well as of those others who had identified themselves with
them in carrying out this law, and in doing so he
would only quote Parliamentary documents, the truth
of .vhich no one could deny, because they had undergone
the most rigid examination, and if the truth of these do •
cuments was denied within the walls of the House that
evening, he (Mr. Ferrand) asserted that that was a
double reason why a committee of inquiry should be
granted to him. But let the House listen for a moment
to the opinions of these administrators themselves,—
a body of men to whom this Act had delegated au un-
constitutional and illegal power, the power of making
laws which the people of this country were justified in
resisting, even until death. He saw sitting in
the House her Majesty's late Attorney-Ge-
neral, and he challenged him to prose that
these laws of the Poor law Commissioners had
been founded in any law of the country. No officer of
the Crown had as yet dared to broach such a doctrine,
and until it was clearly proved that the law was binding
upon the people of this country he (Mr. Ferrand) would
assert that it was their duty to re-ist, and as long as be
had the honour of a seat in that House he never would
assist in enforcing it ; neither would he, in his capacity
of a magistrate, even when called on to assist in quel
ling any riot arising from the infringement of the law,
do so. The Hon. Member then proceeded to read from
the evidence taken before the Andover Committee. In
the answer of Mr. Lewis to a question of the Com-
mittee, he avouched that the Commissioners might
discharge any assistant commissioner without assigning
a reason. Mr. Chadwick said that on the 30th July he
complained to Mr. Lewis, who was considered to be the
gentleman most confidentially connected with the Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department, of some expres-
sions used by the Right Hon. Baronet regarding him,
but Mr. Lewis's answer was, that he could get no re
dress. And what did Mr. Chadwick complain of ? He
complained that the late Secretary of state for the Home
Department had charged him with wing cruel and ill-
tempered language, which had, in fact, been used by Mr.
Lewis himself ; and in the evidence before the Commit-
tee, when Mr. Christie put the question, whether that
letter had not been commented upon ? Mr. Chadwick
replied, " No, never." Now, he (Mr. Ferrand) would
ask, was it not hard that Mr. Chadwick should be ac-
cused of what he was not guilty ? And the chairman
in putting a question to Mr. Parker, and he (Mr. Fer-
rand), in justice to himself, would ask the Members of
that House to listen to what he was about to read to
them ; for if there had not been a great anxiety to screen
the authors of the unjust attack upon him, the evidence
which he would now read to the House would never
have been struck out of the evidence of the Committee.
To the question of the Chairman, Mr. Parker replied
that he had received notice from Mr. Lewis to go to ehe
Andover union, and to report upon it ; and Mr. Parker
was proceeding to inform the Committee of the late Se-
cretary of States's instruction in the matter, when the
Chairman told him to confine himself as much as pose
sible to the Commissioners ; but Mr. Parker was deter.
mined that the truth should come out, and more would
come out yet, and that at no distant day. The state-
meats made by the Home Secretary at that timd was
left uncontradicted ; and he had no hesitation in saying
that the Right Hon. Baronet bad allowed those under
him to lie under a false imputation. The room was,
after the asking of the question cleared ; and Mr. Man-
ners Sutton, the Under Secretary of State, struck hie pen
through that portion of Mr. Parker's evidence, and it did
not appear in the Blue Book. Now, let them hear the
statement of Sir F. Lewis He said in answer to a question
from the chairman that he considered Mr. Chadwick was
an able man, but at the same time he thought him a
dangerous and unscrupulous officer. Did they discharge
Mr. Chadwick? No: Mr. Chadwick still remained se-
cretary to the Poor-law Commissioners. They dared
not dismiss him. If they did he might tell that which
might not be for the benefit of the Poor-law Com-
missioners. He would now turn to another portion of
the evidence. There was a clerk of the name of Jenkin
Jones in the office. He was excessively useful to the
Poor-law Commissioners, and Jenkin Jones thought he
was not sufficiently paid for his services, and by
way of rendering a service to a friend he got him in-
troduced into the office as a clerk, for which he re-
ceived a sum of money. Mr. Lewis examined Mr.
Jones as to his conduct in relation to this affair,
but instead of telling him that he was guilty of a mis-
demeanour, as it was his duty to have said, he got all
out of poor Jenkin Jones that he could, and teen he
was the most active man in the prosecution against
him. The case went to trial, and after Jenkin Jones
had been induced to plead guilty, on a promise thae
judgment would not be entered up against him, the late
Secretary of the Home Department was declared to be
adverse to any lenient course, although the Commis-
sioners themselves did not wish the case to go on, which
called forth from Mr. Jervis the remarkable expression,
remarkable because applied to the Right lion. Baronet
in consequence of the course he had pursued," This
man must be a brute." He would now, for the purpose
of justifying the language used by Mr. Jervis on that
occasion, quote the opinion of Mr. Coode, the Assistant
Secretary. Mr. Parker had fallen into disfavour with
the Poor-law Commissioners, and Mr. Coode, who had
heard that a plot was laid, and that the scheme was
being carried out at Somerset House, wrote to him to the
following effect. Atter mentioning the plot he said, "I
need not say how disgraceful the whole affair
is, and how glad I shall be if their whole conduct turns
out innocuous as they deserve, and I hope that their
shabbiness will recoil on their own heads. If I do not
what I can for yon, call me a rogue fit to serve my
present masters." Now, this was Mr. Coode, , the
Assistant Secretary. Poor Mr. Coode was not long
before he was sent about his business. This opinion of
his was much too honest for them. He had now given
to the House the names and a few of the opinions of the
Poor-law Commissioners and their clerks. He would
now bring before their notice three scenes, one of which
had been enacted in that House, another in the Com-
mittee-room, and another in the police -court. The
House would remember that the Honourable
Member for Finsbury had put a question to
the Right Hon. Baronet, and had asked him whether
he would cause inquiry to be made as to certain reports
current that the poor in the Andover Union were living
on rotten flesh, and the Right Hon. Baronet started up
in his seat and said that he had never heard of it, but
that inquiry would take place, and that that night he
would send notice of the circumstance to the Poor-law
Commissioners. He did so, and a person was sent down
to Andover of all others he (Mr. Ferrand) would have
thought the least qualified for the task, that person
being the Assistant Poor-law Commissioner who had
this very poor-law union under his immediate care.
He was bound to say that this man, Mr. Parker, had
fairly and fearlessly done his duty. He drew up a
statement which he embodied in a report, and he went
to the Home-office, and having informed the Secretary
of State of the result of his labours, he gave him the
report. The Right Hon. Baronet, after some discussion
with him and with Sir Edmund Head, tried to induce
these two officers to agree to a statement which
was absolutely untrue—a statement which was con-
cocted for the purpose of deceiving that House. There
(said the Hon. Member, addressing himself personally
to Sir James Graham)—there was a Secretary of State
for the Home Department teaching two public officers
the art of dissimulation.—(Suppressed laughter.) How
could these men be expected to perform their duties
when the Right Hon. Baronet had asked them to agree
to a statement which he should make to this House for
purposes of dissimulation. He (Mr. Ferrand) was
enabled to tell the House what occurred at this inter-
view. Sir James Graham said—" Now, what must I
tell the House about this business. It will never do to
bring forward this report—l'll tell you what I'll say:
I'll begin by adverting to bone crushing and unions—
shall then advert to the report of the commissioners—l
shall state that I had an interview with Mr. Parker,
who verbally reported to me the result of his investi-
gations, that some of the inmates of depraved appetites
had taken the meat off the bones, and that the matter
had been referred to the surgeons of the union, If, I
say, that communication was made orally, that will suf-
fice for the House." That was the evidence given by
Mr. Parker before the Andover Union Committee,
and if that evidence was untrue, why did not
the Secretary of State go down to the committee
and prove it to be so ? But what a picture this
was for a country to view! They had here a
Secretary of State for the Home Department who had
been Secretary of State for six years, during which time
the Poor law
gtho
the
bes go-between." Commissioners
Irvienegns:T:h(auLd
aebu eghetaintdehrri.es)c
epiuppets, and
hadhe hadbee
nth the
pulled
IdnthLeewini-s
instructionss Department,tr uctionsoft.
andththee
eleescsreert
hadaroyffi-
faithfullycoi
afls Stateofficials.
T The
efoonrHy the Home
wouldH o
thesem e
o
ofonoffol
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August,
tqn,eg: inseBacitei6ninnmt: r the.
Christie
c m t
puttee Tor
Mr.
ParkerOn the etht he
r—ol"oAverreththe eCom
Assistant-Secretarymi tteei nthehaabnidt
the clerks, with respect to the evidence which they may
be required to give?" This was a fair question, for the
Committee was appointed to make a searching investi-
gation—but what followed? He (Mr. Ferrand) was not
present, but he had a copy of what passed, and he
would read it to the House. " Mr. Sutton hero
rose, with great excitement of manner, and said,
I must have the room cleared if this ques-
tion is to be put." He must have the room
cleared. Why ? That the answer might not go forth
to the world. The room was cleared, and for a consi-
derable time the Committee remained in consultation
with closed doors. During the interval, Mr. Manners
Sutton rushed out in an agitated state, and soon after
Mr. Stuart Wortley followed, as if in search of him. On
the return of the parties, sorco minor points of evidence
were disposed of, and the Committee adjourned. Soon
after this, a rumour began to spread that a meeting was
likely to occur between the Under-Secretary of State and