The Sun.
London, England, 1847-05-07 00:00:00

ARMY SERVICE BILL.

Earl GREY postponed the Army Service Bill till
Tuesday next.
POOR-LAW RELIEF BILL.

On the order of the day for going into Committee
upon this Bill being read,
The Earl of RODEN said that in a question so deeply
affecting the interests of the country in which he re-
sided he felt that it would be wrong if he were alto-
gether to remain silent. He had heard with great satis •
faction the statements of the Noble Marquis, that the
provisions for giving relief to the destitute poor did not
give a right to any man to claim relief under the provi-
sions of this Bill, but that they were intended by the
Government to confer upon the Commissioners of the
Poor-law and the guardians to give out-door relief
under the most cautious circumstances, whenever it
should be found necessary. He felt great satisfaction
when he heard the Noble Marquis make this statement,
and be confessed it had relieved him from many difficul-
ties as to this part of the Bill. He could not but
remember that Ireland was an integral portion of this
empire, and in all the measures to be brought forward
with regard to that country, it should be dealt with as
Middlesex, or any county in England. Ho regretted
very much the illness of tie Lord-Lieutenant of Ire-
laud—(Hear, hear)—and he could not allow this oppor-
tunity to pass without paying his tribute of gratitude to
that Nobleman for the ability and judgment with which
he administered the affairs of Ireland in the present
crisis. The Lord-Lieutenants who had hitherto governed
Ireland, were many of them wanting in those qualities
which the Viceroy should possess. Many of them had
much to learn and much to unlearn—(bear, hear)—be-
fore they were fitted for such a situation. With regard
to the Bill before the House, ho thought no dangere
afforded
would ensue from it if it were limited to four or five
years, as in that case an opportunity would be to
re-consider it; but if it passed as a permanFn_t
withmea measure,
he thought it would be found accompanied
greatest difficulty and danger.
The House then went into Committee.
On the Ist clause, Lord MONTEAGLE moved the
amendments of which he had given limitingnotice,
totheend
of
the
operation of the Bill to August 1, 1848, and
od
omitting the
the then next session of Parliament, a
clauses authorising relief to the able-bodied
should not enter into the question of
the Bill for 1,2, 3,4, or 5 years. The issue hewa
was about
or
to try, was whether the Bill was to be permanent
temporary. The Bill was comprised of two series
of enactments ; the first was whether the able-bodied

poor should be entitled to relief, and the second con-
tained provisions which it was proper for their Lordships
to consider and to entertain without reference to an
alteration in the principle of relief. If he were, there-
fore, to propose to suspend the whole Bill, he would
doubtless be met by this question—would he suspend
the clauses relating to emigration, to an improved system
of workhouses, to the ex officio guardians, to the altera-
tion of the size of unions? Would he ask the House
to make clauses such as these temporary? Now, in
answer to such questions, he would say at once that the
only clauses which he proposed to make temporary were
those which introduced for the first time the new prin-
ciple of the right to out-door relief. His Noble Fried
who introduced the measure admitted that it was a perilous
experiment. There was no Noble Lord who would get up
in his place and say that the operation of this Bill would
not be attended with doubt and danger. These vi ere
times of extreme distress and excitement, and therefore
extreme caution should be exercised in legislation. It
had been stated that this Bill would have the effect of
confiscating the property of Ireland. If it had that
effect it differed from all other confiscation in this re-
spect—that confiscations in general took property from
one and gave it to another, but this took from
one and gave it to no one ; and, worse than
all, its effect would be to strike at the root
of property altogether. In one electoral division,
the rating for the poor, for three months, amounted
to I is. in the pound starling, which would be 445. in
the year; and the House might form an opinion from
this case, which was not a solitary one, what would be
the operation of this Bill. In addition to this, however,
it would debase the national character, which would be
the worst effect that could result from the measure.
The Noble Lord then read letters from different autho-
rities, to show the demoralising effict which might be
anticipated. What he asked the Government to do was to
assent to his proposition. He asked them not to put this
upon the Statute Book as a permanent law. If he were
asked where was the difference, whether they made the
law permanent or temporary, since ?ornament had the
power to re-consider the law in any future session—he
would reply, that this Bill must be taken, not as regards
its express enactments so mach as the expectation it
would excite among the people; and if this were properly
considered, he thought the advantage of a temporary
measure would become at once apparent. As lie had
already taken up so much of their Lordships' time on
this measure, he would not trespass further on their at-
tention at present, but concluded by proposing the
amendment as to the limitation of time.

Lord ABINGER. in reference to the challenge of the
Noble Lord who had just sat down, to say that this Bill
would have any other than an injurious effect, agreed
with him that the Bill would have a most injurious
influence, and this would be felt with ten-fold force in
Ireland, in consequence of the recklessness and impru-
dence of the inhabitants of that country. He had the
greatest objection to the Bill ; but if it appeared to be
the feeling of the House that it should bo carried into
law he was of opinion that a clause should be enacted to
prevent disabling those in Iceland who might afterwards
contract marriage, or any one dependant on
them, from receiving relief under it. Much of the evil
which bad arisen to the population of Ireland, and to
the country at large, was caused by the early and
imprudent marriages of the people. These marriages
were, to a considerable degree, encouraged by the
priests, a great part of whose income depended upon
these occasions. This Bill would tend further to encou-
rage such marriages, and would therefore increase many
of the evils by which Ireland was at present afflicted.
The provisions made for the relief of able-bodied persons
were too extensive in their character, and were calcu-
lated to encourage idleness, and a confident reliance upon
the Government for the relief of all distress which might
hereafter prevail. _ .

The Earl of WICKLOW confessed that when he saw
the number of amendments which stood for consideration
upon the paper that night, he thought that the question
of the permanency of the measure had better be post
poned until the measure had been duly considered, and
would therefore suggest to his Noble Friend that he
should let the Bill go through Committee, and thin
bring forward the question as to its duration.
Lord BROUGHAM said that he hoped the Noble
mover of this amendment would not adopt the advice
offered to him, for he (Lord Brougham) thought that
the question raised was a most proper one to be con-
sidered. He did not say so in any spirit of amity to the
Bill, for the amendment was by no means one in it;
favour. His Noble Friend having expressed his opinion
that a measure once passed was permanent, and then
moving that the operation of this Bill be limited to one
or two years, went pretty strongly to the point that the
the measure ought not to be tolerated at all. He thought
that the question of the permanency of the measure was
one that should be at once discussed ; and, as he thought
that it ought not to be a permanent measure, he should
vote for the amendment of his Noble Friend.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that his Noble
Friend called upon the House (as he had a perfect right
to do) to consider the question of the duration of this
measure ; but he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) thought
that it was literally calling upon them to decide as to the
duration of the measure without their knowing what
shape the measure was eventually to assume. Ho was
rather surprised to find that view of the case supported
by the Noble and Learned Lord opposite, for he must be
aware that until the House had considered what the nu
merous amendments proposed were to be, and whether
they were to stand, they could not with any sense or
propriety decide as to the permanency of the measure.
His Noble Friend (Lord Monteagle) could hardly ad-
vocate the rejection of the entire Bill, because he had on
several occasions heard him in that House speak strongly
in favour of the most permanent and characteristic pro-
vision in the Bill—namely, out-door relief for the sick
and disabled. Now, if in the progress of the Bill through
that House the operation of the Bill should be restricted
to this class, his Noble Friend, by the course he was now
taking, was striving to defeat that object which he had
always professed himself most desirous to attain. He
(Lord Lansdowne) saw great mischief in making the
Bill temporary, for such a provision would give it a cha-
racter of uncertainty and doubt, and would create a
feeling of distrust rather than favour, and prevent that
cordial and settled co-operation of all classes so essential
to its due administration. He disclaimed the idea that
the subject might not at a future time be brought under
the notice of Parliament, but he asked their Lordships
not to sanction an amendment which would hold out to
the Irish public (many of whom were already averse to
its principle) a hope that the measure would be ulti-
mately abandoned, and which would stimulate them to
agitate against it.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord WI-lARNCLIFFE offered a few observations
which were inaudible in the gallery.
Lord BROUGHAM would venture to say that of all
the anarchy that would be introduced, he could conceive
nothing greater than the want of a Commission on the
Poor-law Bill for this country, which was the main
spring of that measure.
Lord STANLEY—The Noble Lord opposite had
failed to show that this measure would not produce an
undue pressure on the landlords of Ireland. He had
supported the second reading of the Bill, for he thought
that under the existing circumstances her Majesty's
Government were justified in introducing this measure.
But it was not inconsistent to support the principle of
the Bill, and at the same time to assent to the proposi-
tion of his Noble Friend opposite. The Noble Marquis
admitted that this Bill was an experiment, but he also
said, on the other hand, that if it be passed merely as a
temporary measure in the first instance, the circum-
stances under which it would be carried into operation
would be far more favourable than it it be carried as it
now stands ; that the conviction of this being a perma-
nent measure, which he believed it would be, would lead
to greater circumspection in its consideration ; but
he (Lord Stanley) thought he would cordially support
the amendment of his Noble Friend, not in any spirit
of hostility to this measure—(Hear, hear)—not with
any desire to prevent it being tried, and not with the
least desire to prevent its being safely worked as an ex-
periment—(Hear)—but because he thought that further
interference of Parliament in this measure would lead to
its perfection.

The Archbishop of DUBLIN said, in support-
ing the amendment, he did so without any hostility
to the Bill, even if he were in favour of
that measure. It was universally admitted by even the
supporters of the Bill, that without a very cordial co-
operation of many different classes of the people of Ire-
land, the measure could not succeed. It was admitted,
on all hands, that this was a very perilous experiment.
He gave credit to her Majesty's advisers for good inten-
tions in the introduction of this measure, but he did not
think that any reasoning person would think it did pro-
vide a remedy for.the abuses which ho admitted did exist
at the present time.
Lord ROSS—There were a great many errors in this
Bill. He believed that even if the landlord
com-
menced long ago in t'eeir efforts inhelaidorationof the people of Ireland, they woupolfdorrhtattvhee
object. He would, therefore, fganaileedndinmethet.ir
The Marquis of CLANRICAsuRP
d in one in-
Lordships that, from his ovvonoil.c,
c.e_uglde,assure their
a great number of
stance, by the outlay of 1
_.,„ of earning their
families were placed in a w",
fisheries in Ireland. He be-
fisher
bread. He alluded to the
be considerably increased by
Hewed that whatever of evil or risk there might be in
this Bill, both would
ried..—(Hear, hear.) He
sent Pe
inactivity at the p
-r° not throw any obstacle in the
tboucht they could
way of the usefulness of this measure more powerful
eoplo of Ireland, that this relief
than this, to tell theorPary. If their Lirdships dealt with
was to be only
the Bill in the mannerternp proposed.by the Noble Lord, their
Lordships would at once do away with all confidence
that might be placed
in its future efficacy.
WFSTMEATH would certainly vote The Marquis of
or the limitation of the measure to a certain period.
The Earl of HADDING roN was decidedly of opinion
that, if they were to establish the principle of out-door
relief, it ought to be made temporary and not permanent.
Lord
MONTEAGLE objected entirely to the princi-
ple of out-door relief.
Earl GREY said, that if he understood the" Noble
Lord aright, ho objected that that portion of the Bill
which extended relief to the out-door able. bodied
paupers should be not a permanent, but a temporary
measure. He did not express any dissatisfaction with
the remaining portion of the Bill. He (Lord Grey)
conceived that this was endeavouring to get rid of the
measure by a side wind, and it their Lordships affirmed
by their vote the amendment of the Noble Lord, they
expressed by that vote their opinion that the Bill as it
stood was a dangerous and unconstitutional one. Their
Lordships, by adopting the amendment, would not only
express that opinion, but they would convey to the
public an impression that their Lordships wet°
about to try an experiment of the success of
which Parliament already entertained doubts, and
uncertainty. He therefore entreated their Lordships to
negative the amendment. The great principle of the
Bill w. 05 that property was to he liable for the relief of
the distress of the population; that those by whose
labour value was given to property should receive, in one
shape or another, that subsistence which was necessary
for them. That principle bad been recogaised fvr three I

sii ..•

—.., ------
hundred years in England, and he was prepared to
recommend its adoption in Ireland, not for three Yr
but permanently. The opinion was spreading- throue.h
England, that you could not allow the Iriishh
c
p._)or to have a right to out-door reliW, wh
should begin only when they landed in Diverpool.
In the present state of feeling which prevoiled in
that country, and considering the inefficient ma.nner int
which the poor-law was administered in the sister king-
d, m, their Lordships would disregard the public inert terest
if they refused to adopt this Bill, unfettered ith '-
limitation clause. The Irish pauper when he landed is
Liverpool was entitled to outdoor relief, if no room fur
no work could be found for him in the workhouse ;
ned
it was too bad for their Lordships to tell this count al
that the same principle ought not to be extended to
Ireland —(Hear, hear.)
Earl FITZ WILLIAM said it was a mistake to sco-
pose that the statute of Elizabeth provided that the rx'e
aril '.
should be supplied with out-door relief. What: ti ii
statute of Elizabeth provided was, that every P
should be bound to supply the poor with work, and It
never contemplated nor did its framers contem plate
giving the able-bodied poor out-door relief. He tin'
doubtedly agreed with those eho thought that this vole a.
dangerous experiment, and he was of course on. tilt
account glad that his Noble Friend had moved this alter'
ment. The object of the amendment was to rtcoitn•
mend to Parliament, nut to bind itself permanently to a
system of out door relief, and he strongly urged liVen
their Lordship's the necessity of adopting that recc le;
mendation. It' they passed this Bill as a permleil_
measure, then their Lordship's would put it out of the
power of Parliament hereafter to adopt any cis of
plan, and he should, therefore, give his decided supl)9l.
to the amendment.
The Earl of DEVON reminded their Lordslin
that Ireland at the present moment was placed,,„idi
s most extraordinary position, and it was " ,
dew,.
that condition that they were now called upon t°
It was stated upon undoubted authority, that a largai
portion of the population were dependent for a part 0_
the year upon temporary relief, without having. reoinv,e_u_
to work or labour of any description, and this 811, tbe
was not mistaken, was intended to remedy that el
vitl. „t
would serve as a stimulant to induce the landed er
of the country to exert themselves to procure work leur,
the poor, because it would induce a belief that withot
maintaint they dici stoh,et
able-bodiedh e m easnredietssetiltfutiev opuolodr, eannfdore e them t
heteheoabillcn,:;
conceive of a more efficient means for securing
they had in view, namely, a remedy for the existing
state of things in Ireland. That being his view of
slsup'
intention of the Bill, he could not conscientiouY iid
port the amendment making the operation of the
nt On
temporary, and not as it now stood, perMon' ting
this Bill an opportunity would be afforded of preven i_
f
distress, and providing ample employment for tbe poop
stic:
of Ireland. H wiselye believed it would be a measure o in,i,
and necessity, and their Lordships would not act
in refusing to pass the present measure.
The Earl of RIPON said, that from the actualedili ee
se
tion of the country, he could not bring hinalhe
to agree with the motion of his Noble Friend, en as
should feel it his duty to vote against the resolution'
proposed by that Noble Lord.
The Earl of SHREWSBURY wished to
distressedth erthe Bill
personsdid acotfu actually give know iwi htbe-0
country,give a ri
;.
doubt, impose a burden upon land which it should °ot
be called upon to bear. If it did not afford that 1',.,
ex_
then for what purpose was the first Bill introdueoiki be
cept for the purpose of raising hopes which it wotli ;di-
ht of relief to te:
no
unable to satisfy. Government had already w`..0,,
drawn ono of the measures that was to accomPy.
it, and nothing was heard of those measures which wee::
promised to follow it, he thought, therefore, hamperst n?
would have to take the present Bill, with all ie
fecti, us, as it then stood. Under these eircutnste 0,
he thought he should he inclined to vote for the PreP
sition of his Noble Friend below him. 0 the
if so, it oula,ouot
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, when
House divided, and the numbers were-
-63
Content ............................ ...........
Non-content ................................ 50
..
Majority in favour of the amendment °._d 0
The. Earl of ELLENBOROUGII then propn,see, by
clause to the effect that the relief which WS,S previa '-' ,A
hem-
the Bill for poor women with legitimate childrent!.
_oh
be extended to those with illegitimate children. :Li the
a clause were not enacted, it would be inflietulgord.
punishment of death on those who were so eircuinstos„
Atter a few words from the Marquis of 14
DOWNE which were inaudable, he oar
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said that tp- -such
diens had a discretionary power to provide or such
a
cases, and there was therefore no necessity ter a
special clause to meet it.
lief under any circumstances, as he thought that
ucrf:
The Earl of CLANCARTY objected to out-doer_Le;
and improvidence would be the inevitable conseq..__'"
and it would be holding out a premium to imenoraltr.,
Lord ELLENBOROUGH adhered twhist oPiPteu, be
to the necessity for such a clause, but mignfba;
more convenient to introduce it on the bringing up °
report, he would withdraw it for the present.
The Earl ot. WICKLOW proposed
'The clause was accordingly withdravvn.
n :tient to
insert against the word a Counissioners'
line of the second clause, the words, " wl
"th the consent
'don of
of the Lord Lieutenant,", in order that the sanction
the ;thoughGovernmen be had.
Earl GREY t the words unnecessary, and
hope:[ the Noble Lord would withdraw his amendment.
Lord MONTEAGLE was of opinion that
an Amin tithe 12th
there should
sbeeran enactment compelling unions to provide for de-
ndren,
pauperand s
schools.
The that they should be
adtecril
edutce
The Earl of WICKLOW then withdrew his amend-
ment.
The Earl of DESART proposed the following amend"
ment :—" That after the words 'by order under their
seal to authorise and empower the guardians of such.
union,' be inserted ' to build or hire additional houses
for the reception of such destitute persons, or to ad'
minister, &c. ;' and after the words 'on the receipt by
the guardians of the union of any such order authorise
ing,' be inserted ' the erection or hiring of such houses,
or relief,' &c. ;' also, that after the words ' shall be given
in food only b inserted, 'to he in all cases distributed
from a store,' toe be provided by the guardians for a°
purpose, save as hereinafter," &c.
Lord STANLEY said that although the Poor-law
Commissioners were stated in the claim to have th.
power of making this order for the relief of a district,
yet the power was as much vested in the poorelecr
guardians, who were authorised to demand the sane':
Lion of the Commissioners, by the wording of Axle
the
The amendment for enabling out-door relief to be
The
tributed, was most imperfect. They must either ad
round food to the home of every destitute person in the
district, or they must compel every able-bodiedoftna:z
who was destitute, to walk, perhaps, a distance
efiwB
or six miles, when he might, perhaps, be better
ployed in looking for work.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE rose and made solie
observations, which, from the low tone in which they
were uttered, did not reach the gallery.
After a few words from Lord CLANCARTY,
Lord DESART withdrew his amendment, and the
clause was agreed to.
On clause three being proposed,
Lord STANTEY rose to propose an alteration to the
effect, that the relieving officers be P'
should a
pointed by the Poor lay Commissioners, instead of the
board of guardians. In England,' the averag'e
land.populationaverage In of each union was 24,845, in Ire-
was no less than 65 384 England
the
00 , 0 acres in extent,
there were hut 2 above 200
_
above 100,000 acres, and 600 under 100,000. In Ire'land, however,
200,000 acres in extent, 104 above 100,000 acres, an
541 only under 100,000. The Noble Lord having cons
trasted the mode of managing the poor in England, fi
compared with what it was proposed to be in the Bill,
concluded by proposing his amendment, that the 0"
lieving officers should be appointed by the Poor-
c lam
ommissioners, instead of by the guardians.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE did not object tc:
the clause being so worded as to make the appointmlne
of the railway officers subject to the approbation of
Poor-law Commissioners.
The Earl Earl of RODEN supported the proposed amen
ment of the Noble Lord (Stanley).
Lord LUCAN thought that the board of guardians
ought to be exonerated from that duty, for the Govern'
meat were, in fact, the real directors of those boards.
Earl GREY said, that the whole of the effect of the
Noble Earl was to take off the responsibility from the
board of guardians, and to throw it on the Government.
At least it was directed against the Poor-law Commis-
eioners. who now constituted a part of the Government.
every statesman who had observed the course of the
proceedings of the last fifty years must have perceived
what a continual tendency there was to relieve the local
authorities from their responsibility, and to throw it on
the Government. What was it that the amendment f
o
the Noble Earl required ? Why, that all the manage'
meat was to be taken out of their hands, and to be given
to the Commissioners. The Government had hitherto
interfered hut rarely, but in Ireland it was desired
that all the management should be taken out
of the hands of the board of guardians, end
should be given to the Government or thrown upon
the Commissioners, but it was above all desirable that
these matters should be managed by their own Ministn
ry,
and to that point the efforts of the Government had bee
constantly directed. So far as he could observect tbe
of
_
effect of this amendment would be to render tbe effe
these abuses constant, and to occasion have no
advances from
the Treasury, which the inhabitants would
means of repaying. On the contra* when these
expenses were thrown upon the rate 3, therewould be a direct interest in the board 0:?fell'
.
guardians to do their duty, and be
assured that Nob Lors would but PaY attention to
the provisions of this le
Bill, dthey would see that there !!as
no reason whatever for transferring the responsibility
from the board of guardians to the Government. ,
The Earl of CLANCARTY conceived that the objec
of the Noble Earl was to impute blame to those hoSO
duty it was to administer the poor-law in Ireland. ld
Earl GREY believed that if the Noble Earl made,
only consider the observations which be had roan..
he would perceive that he had no intention w(lile,",
ever to inculpate the boards of guardians, whose OL-T_
it was to administt r the law ; and the Noble Earl on
the other side had entirely mistaken his meaning.
The Earl of CLANCARTY intimated dissent. to
Earl GREY had certainly no intention whatever_
._
throw out imputations against any one. Indeed, 11..11_
chief object was to show that blame had unnecessarily
and frequently been imposed on the boards of guardian.
The Earl of CLANCARTY thought that if the IsTobrl!
Earl had not interrupted him in the middle of his
obseo__
vations, he would have perceived that that interruptl2lll
was quite unnecessary. The Noble Earl had t
ang S:.
out imputations which vvre •qiito unrec, ssary, an' ,„
believed that the reply of th,.! Noble Marquis (of Len_
downe), was a complete answer to the allegation'
which had been made.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said that 130 one