The Sun.
London, England, 1847-05-19 00:00:00

.I.;

their line. He thought that some cheek should be put to in 18'31 proceeded from the work'ng of the la
such a course of proceeding. He begged, therefore, to we ye mistaken ; it arose from the low rate of wages
the appointment el the Commi tee to inquire into these The Government had been ee,•grateleted
subjects. which was proposed to be made, and ti e au,
Mr. HODGSON thought that an interval of a day at least spec•ors. Now, he did not see any reason foi
should have been allowed, in order to allow Hon. Members ter gratulation. He found the name was only ch\
move some amendment, if they thought proper. He thought office of inspector was precisely similar to that os
it his duty to move an amendment on this motion, and would commissioner. Moreover, there was to be mad. -
take the sense of the House upon it. There was no doubt it of three to the number. He found there were testier-Ad fewer_;
was to the interest of the old companies to strangle as than twelve inspectors. Of all the unions with which he was
much as possible all net, companies _ ( Hear, hear.) acquainted tie Union of Stockport was the one which gave
To place chairmen of old compariiii upon this Committee, the greatest satisfaction. He :bought the visits of the assist-
and ask their opinion upon this subject, was like con•• ant commissioner hod not been produ, tive of any beneficial
suiting the wolves as to what was best for the sheep. result to the country. Complaints had also been made of the
He would now read to the House the amendment which it was bad and irregular mode in which the books were kept. The
his intention to make upon the original motion. With part of accounts were, he believed, kept in a system of short-hand
that motion, he found no fault whatever, but he proposed that, which nobody
but himself could understand. He concluded
from and after the words " future sessions of Parliament," there that the proceedings of the Poor-law Cemmis-ion,rs ought to
should be inserted instead, •• that the Select Committee do in- beithrown open to the public. The Duke of Wellington had
quire whether it be expedient that restrictions shall be imposed
expressed it a.s.h,• his opinion
is thereopinion
said or done in rev parish that
that the board. should be thrown
t
on railway Bills, passed in the present session, so as to prevent open. He said
the absorption of an undue amount of capital in those under- I should shut out he public from knowine."—( Hear, hear. 1
takings."
In the Select Committee appointed to enquire into the Andover
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained union, he moved an amendment
in a proper manner. Thatnr to the eff,et that Mr. Parker
that his object was not to prescribe to the Committee the course had not conducted the inqui
_
they should pursue. The Committee would still report to the amendment was defeated only by the casting vote
House their opinion upon the Bills submitted to them, so that of the chairman, who of course
which he proposed. ccurse gave his vote in
the Hon. Gentleman's amendment would not, in fact, amend favour of the original resolution,
in any decree the difficult), which he endeavoured to meet. The Right Hon. 13 ironet, the Secretary tor the lime De-
Mr. HINDE did not at all object to the names on the Com- partment, said last night that it was trot intended to compe
mittee, and rather than divide the House, he should withdraw uniformity under this Act. He ( Mr. Etwall) thought that
his amendment.
above all things, this was the object of the Bill. Even the la-
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that South and the West o
boar test which was enforced in the
since he had come to the House he found that Mr. Barin
be dared to
could not serve, in consequence of absence from town. He !
then could be the value of such a law, as could not England, was not dared to be put in force in the north. What
,
proposed, therefore, to substittee Lord Seymour's name in be carried out equally over the countrs. With re poet to the
room of Mr. Haring's. He also proposed to substitute Mr. ' conduct of the Commissioners, he begged to state that, in his
Pattison in room of Mr. John Abel Smith, who had . •
got leave
—wn up, nor
from the House.
officere of the Crown, was not correctly do.
opinion, the case submitted by the Commissioners to the Law
The amendment was then withdrawn, and the original founded upon accurate data. One portion of the case sub-
motion agreed to.
mitted was, that every letter received by the Cornmissioners was
THE ADJOURNED DEBATE. entered in the books of the office. Now it was expressly
On the order of the day for resuming the adjourned debate Proved before the Committee, that some of the c- rrespon-
on the poor-laws, dente had not been so entered.— (Hear, hear.) Numerous
Mr. CHRISTIE said, that having given a great deal of letters were also written by Mr. Nichol, calling upon Mr. Par-
attention to this subject, he was anxious to address a very few ker to resign ; of those letters, also, no retards were kept.
observations to the House upon it, and the result of all his Although he had spoken very strongly upon the mode in
observation was that a central Board of Commissioners, in- I which Mr. Parker conducted the inquiry at Ando.. er, still be
vested with large discretionary powers, was absolutely i thought that the cur duct of the Commissioners towards that
necessary. He could not agree with the objections gentleman had been most uncalled for and vindictive. His
which had been urged against the. Poor-law Bill, Hon. Friend the Member for W'eymnuth had told them how
that it was a cruel and obnoxious law, and the measure many days Mr. Nicoll had transacted the business of Somer-
he believed had been supported, and it was still set-house alone. It era; he who had ordered the it quirt' to be
supported by the intelligent of all classes in the country. All made about the bones ; but then the House should know that
that was now wanted was, to place its machinery above sus- . all these proceedings were in oppositissn to the Act. He had
picion ; and instead of having these removals every five years . to thank the House for the kind indulgence it had shown him,
to have a well digested and permanent measure. The Hon. and he could assure them that he supported the amendment of
Member for Knaresborough had, instead of making out a case,
his Hon. Friens because he conceived that there was nu neces-
exhibited to the House a melancholy failure. He (Mr. Christie) sity for a central board.
had listened in vain to hear in the speech of the Hon. Gentle-
Viscount COURTEN AY said that although he did not in-
man a corroboration of his asserticn that the Act was crumbling tend to follow his Hon. Friends through the detailed statements
to pieces. The only proof that he could have alleged of the which they had addressed to the House, still as he had had the
failure of the measure was in the case of the Andover union, honour of being chairman of the committee, the report of which
but to that he (Mr. Christie) would come presently. He had been so much referred to that night, he trusted that he
would now leave the Hon. Gentleman and refer to what had might be permitted to address a few observations to the House.
fallen from the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Dorsetshire He did so for two objects, first. that he was anxious, not having
had the opportunity as chairman of the Committee of doing so,
(Mr. Bankes)—who also opposed the Bill. He (Mr. Christie's)
to express the reaso a which influenced him in dissenting from
answer to the statements put forward by that Gentleman wits,
that the present Bill would afford several important addi-
some of the resolutions to which they had arrived; and, se-
tional securities for the better administration of the law. There condly, because he was anxious to record his opinion on the
were three ways in which this was proposed to be done, Bill then before the House. It was his misfortune not always
first, by a direct responsibility to agree with the members of the Andover union upon the
to Parliament of a minister who would be ready at any time that a question was put to him to subjects befote them. but he was yroud and grateful to acknow-
afford the House and country every- explanation.- The second
was, that with this president of the Board, who havingledge that the discussions were carried on throughout in a spirit
of kindness and friendliness A series of resolutions were propoeesl
should be assisted by four Cabinet Meinisters the House would
be guaranteed Cabinet deliberations in all important, matters reference to three distinct eubjects; these were the local
administration of the law in the workhouse itself, the conduct
regarding the administration of the law, exercise of the
fromof thepon„.sr-oleawComrniestoners, and the dismissal of Mr. Day
discretionary powers to be conferred on'itesrotfficeers. The third his. oat oftoor-law assistant. He would`
take the liberty
security was the new foisting on which the 'Commissioners of staring to the House what the general impression was that
would be placed with regard to the officers under them. The he derived from the evidence taken before the Committee ; he
Commissioners hitherto had been responsible for all the local felt himself unable to avoid coming to the conclusion that there
abuses which had arisen under the operation of the law ; but had been gross mismanagement. in the board of guardians, and
the arrangements now would be to make the local officers res- that the administration of the law was marked by an unusual
possible for the local administration, leaving to degree of harshness at Andover, and that owing to •he genera
the Commissioners a paramount and a central control. irregularity which prevailed, the inmates of the establishment
Ha was well aware that it was of Se highest importance to were kept in a wretched and lamentable state Ttiat investiga-
ascertain what was the precise meaning of the assertions that tion had been so far attended with good results, that public at-
had been made last night by the Hon. Member for Knares-
tention had been directed to the subject On some of these
borough, that the Poor-law Amendment Act had proved to be resolutions he had hehl different opinions from some of
an utter failure. Then it was important to ascertain whether his friends, as he did also on the second series
of these resolutions, namely, on the conduct of the Poor-law
the Act of 1844 was impolitic, or whether it had been a good
law, although doomed to failure from the evil administration of Commissioners themselves. Their conduct had been severely
it by its Ministers, local and central. The point on which the censured in the matter ot Mr. Parker, but he raid nut know
that they deserved all the censure which had been accorded to
Andover Committee inquired, were those points bearing almost
them on the subject. Certainly, a• tar as Mr. Parker's appear-
'entirely upon the administration of the poor-law, as distinct
from the law itself. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Secre- ante before the committee went, he ,Vise .ant Court rosy) did
tary for the lionise Department, stated yesterday that he had not think that it was characterised by either vigilance or atten-
attentively read the report of the Andover Committee from the time. While stating this he must at the same time state in
beginning, and he did not find one word in that report affecting justice to Mr. Parker, that strong evidence was given of the
ability and perseverance he had exhibited while in his former
the principle of the measure. The first series of points to
position of secretary to the Peor-law Commissioners. He
which the Andover Union Committee had directed their at-
f tention, were those bearing on local abuses and defects in the fully agreed with his Hon. Friend who had spoken that evening,
administration. The Andover workhouse was ill-regulated that the Bill before the House would be se far superior to the
former
.Bill, that it would have st direct Parliamentary resists ,-
disgusting.ethtah,olutgilliet
ottiatmtshtat.tmporsiveisiens!which
and filthy, and the practices of the inmates were necessarily
s,irboivl ritdye
di
inset t h
lectors
House. srea. ,
II
eHr
The local authority there had very extended
ce
arsti,onwsaswaonuoldtheeerritmaillovtetnndenttooinnethreeasol..ditlsawva.
luelisnhetshe
powers, which he exercised with the utmost severity, thus in- I
ommission-
flieting the utmost hardship on the poor. The harsh
emndi i
public -
mode in which the law was administered defeated
one of the pureoses for which workhouses were originated. estimation, and secure a more
efficient and equable admmistra-
The workhouses were considered a terror instead of a relief.— tion of the law.
(Hear.) The labourers near Andover were, therefore, left Captain PECHELL ' sard, after such an inquiry of so much
at the mercy of their employers, for rather than meet the importance the country must be
surprised_ that the Noble Lord
horrors of the workhouse, they accepted any wages that were had not introduced a more complete measure for the adretnis-
offered them. The Committee, afterwards inquired into ' f h the con- tration o
said
as p or-law to the I resent day. The Noble Lord,
duct of the Poor-law Commissioners, and a series •
of resolutions indeed, said as much as that the present Bill was not founded
were passed, expressive of the Committee's disapprobation of on the information which had been acquired by the late inves-
their conduct. Then they came to the question of the dismissal of tigation. He was surprised. and he begged to ask a reason for
the Assistant Poor-law Commissioners, resolutions of a still all this. Was the Noble Lord prepared to sanction the
stranger character were passed upon their conduct in this par- proceedings of the Commissioners. Those proceedings were
ticular, and of their being brought forward by the well known to the country and the House. Yet, after the
' Right Honourable Gentleman, the Member far Dorchester. expose which they had had of these proceedings, they were told
The conduct of an Assistant Commissioner, Mr. Carter, while that that inquiry formed no reason for the present measure.
sitting on an inquiry—the conduct of the Commissioners on What, then, was the reason? He begged their attention to
inquiries—their conduct in dismissing Mr. Carter, were ques- the evidence. When in the Committee, they were told the
tions all aff cting the administration of the law. The Com- C immissioners acted a, a board—they were under the necessity
mittee of the House had entered upon these questions b cause "f asking what was a board. The seeretary, a most able and
they felt it necessary, having begun to pursue inquiries which well-deserving gentleman, defined a hoard as a tab eat which th•
were incidental. They found that same of the conduct of the appointed functionaries at in deliberation. The fact, however,
Commissioners was illegal, some irregular; and their conduct was that scarcely a single Commi,sioner ever .air at the board.
in removing Mr. Chadwick from the business of the Commis. But this opinion of Mr. Chadwick, about the constitution of a
sion was not to be approved. These Commissioners exhi- board, was found troublesome in the Commission. Now, he
bited distrust in their subordinates, and injustice to did not know whether the Noble Lard would state the reason
many of their servants. On these points evidence wi ich had operated on his mind. but perhaps he had not seen a
had 'been taken at length, and occupied public opinion fora letter which had come to his (Capt. Peehell's) hand. The
long time. All these questions affected the Administration Gallant Gentleman read a letter from China on " Board,: and the administrators of the law ; and having now referred to which excited a good deal of merriment in the House. He
all these points, he thought he might say to the Hon. Member 'aid he could show that the employment of the poor n •d•
that he was not at liberty to refer to the report of the Andover ing bones, to which attention had been d -awn in the i grin
smar 1842,
Committee in support of his opinion—that the new poor-law was allowed to continue, without one effort, on the ,art of the
had been a failure. That report was made at the close of last Com
Commissioners. to do away with it. Instead of that' .he held in
session. The present Ministers had but recently taken office. his hand a document from an Assistant Commissioner in the
The Secretary of State for the Home Department, West of England, written in
office,practice. He said 1844, propos•
mg a new system of
not being in not having been in office during dhe did not care fer mills, but he referred
the greater part of the sittings of the Committee, boxes and iron rammers with which to set the poerpto grind
could not have been expected to have made intimate inquiry bones small enough to pass through a half-inch slit. It was
into some of the matters referred to in the report. He did, bars' work, but it was necessary for paupers. Such was the
however, institute an inquiry, and the result was already on the language of the subosdinat es of the Commissioners in 1844. when
table. The present session began with the Commissioners still it was expected that they would have put down the making of
sitting. But in answer to a question by the Hon. Member for bone manure. He trusted that no such conduct would be pur-
Montroee, the Noble Lord at thehead of the Government made sued by the new Commission. He might r. fer them to the
a statement which gave the public to understand, that with the treatment received by Mr. Parker, as an instance, of the way
re-construction of the Poor-law Commission, the present Corn- in which the Commissioners were wont to sacrifice the most
missioners would cease this cession. He would not say valuable servants. That Gentleman was sent down into the
that the Government in thus proceeding, had no' county of Sussex as his (Captain Peehell's) opponent. an'f was
acted with a wise discretion ; but he must say that there employed thy by day to oppose. But he d:sohar red his
the Home Secretary had not taken the best method to elicit 'iuty most impartially, anti here was he (Captain Pee/fell) to
the truth. Mr. Chadwick impugned the conduct of the Corn- state that he was dismissed from his office without a recommen-
missioners so early as the year 1842, a copy of which document datisn for any place under the Gov't.. ment. Similar was the
appeared in the appendix to the report of the Commissioners. case of Mr. .Day• two cases the most fl .grant that could be
The Commissioners appeared to have conducted their business instanced. He was anxious for a change. But what were
in a most extraordinary way. Mr. Chadwick made most mar- they to get by this change ? If he should not vote fur the
vellous revelations before the Commissioners. The Commie- second reading of the Bill, it might be said that he would
sioners denied these, and they and Mr. Chadwick joined issue thereby leave the Commissioners out, but these who said o
ild
on matters of fact. (The Hon. Gentleman then read at had not heard the few words vosich he m ant tos
a res., to the
some length extracts from the evidence wl.ich has House. He hoped if the Government passed this Bill, as he
that they would
already appeared in the public prints to show believed they would,
-
fairly grapple with the
the irregularity of the proceedings of the Commissioners, es • law, and that it would be
materially amended. The Noble
pecially in the matter of the Minute-book, which appeared, by Lord had intimated that the law required amendment • there-
conflicting statements, to have been kept in a very irre- fore he hoped, in the words of the Hon. '
. and Learned Gentle-
gular way from the year 1834 to the year 1839.) It appeared man the Member for Bath, that the new beard would Ise free
likewise from page 3of the report, that, in the case of orders. from suspicion. He wished, in the words of the report of the
these had been issued sometimes with the signature of only one Committee on the Andover union, to express his opinion that
! Commissioner, sometimes with the signature of net one Corn- the Commissioners were'not deserving of support, but they must
missioner at all. not imagine that they would entirely alter the Gilbert and
At this moment an Hon. Member moved that the House be other unions which did not adopt the bad system of the new
counted, and the galleries were cleared, but as there were more poor law. He would, therefore, support tile amendment of
than 40 Members present, the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Knaresborough
Mr. CHRISTIE resumed. He said the opinion of the law Mr. M. SUTTON said, as the measure did not propose any
officers of the Crown had not been clearly stated to the public material alteration in the law, he should not detain the House
and they were, therefore, left to draw their own inference. with anYboobserTat tr. 7.oirthLm:peect,tbtioreit—iiiiiirfaciththoek Hon. Gen-
They stated that it was not usual to produce the opinions of the delmyallnfemt berill
who
m had appliedrs himself( to .t
9 was
the
he subject legiti-
law officers of the Crown - but an opinicn of the Attorney- ae
only
under discussion,
namely,
the Bill of the Government ;
neral had been produced by' the guardians of Pancras and Mary-
am d although he intended to support tli
e motion of the Hon.
lebone. There was, however, he understood, some distinction "
the Member for '
Gentleman fanaresboroueh, he differed with
as it was not given his capacity as
in
one of the law officers of
Hon. Gentleman on thegrounds the
the Crown. The commissioners were required to record all
had not done so. The commis. it forward. Subsequently a third subject had been •
their proceedings, but they
introduced
sinners had stated that they had recorded all their letters, but before the attention of the House,
uet which he admitted was equal
they had written letters marked "private," or intended to be in importance to the others, namely, the cond was
o the ard
private, to their assistant-commissioners, of which no copies entrusted with the administration of file relief of the poor.bo It
had been kept—(Hear, hear.) The commissioners also stated was well known that he ( Mr. M. Sutton) did not concur in the
that they had acted as a body, when it was notorious that report of the Committee on
some of them had acted individually. The Honourable that report of it which had the Andover inquiry, but especially
d reference to the conduct of the
Gentleman then referred to a letter written by the Poor- Poor-law Commissio '
law Commissioners with respect to the Andover Union. The} the conduct of herAniearjse, and his opinion was strengthened by
Government, who r in not agree
stated, in their defence, that the guardians of the union didie' Cin the report of that "'Y
ommittee ; it they had agreed in the
not require explanation on the points to which thersport, they
report of would not have felt it consistent with their duty
the Committee had reference, but the
Commissioner
s had the
evidence taken before the Committee transmitted to them a to have retained men any longer in office who had been guilty
sd the conduct which was imputed to them He reted.
soon as it was published, and as soon as it came into
the pm- therefore, that he 11. h H • * did
e ig t on. Baronet (Sir G. Grey) not
session of the Committee, and they might therefore have come express the views of the Government more fully than he did
before the Committee, and made any explanation they when he addressed the House last night, because it would have
thought proper. He considered that the annual reports, which relieved him from intruding upon the House; but he believed
were presented to the House, should be printed in a small the Noble Lord would state his views on the subject before the
form, in order that they might be the more easily circulated— conclusion of the debate. He admitted that there was great
on the part o
not ex ports statements selected from the reports of the Com-
want of good conduct and cruelty to the poor,missioners' reports.—( Hear, hear.) Then the digest which the Poor-law Commissioners ; but then,it should be
borne in mind, that the body partook
more of an
had been published of the evidence by the Barrister appointed
character; but if they
inspecting than et.
dany other
to make it, merely adopted, the words and sentiments al
neglected tol amend evils which were made evident.
the Poor-law Commissioners; and appeared as if it wk,y of
they weremisconduct, but they surely were not
written by the Commissioners themselves.—(Hear, hear.)
misconductguit if their assistant
The introductory parts are full of mistatements— goilty of. Hear.)
Then with commissioners were guilty
respect to Andover, he enter.
(Hear, hear,)— and, therefore, the digest was biased,of
and could not be depended upon.—(Hear.) The Commis- mined the opinion that the Guardians
are responsible for all that
t
had taken place—( Hear) a sinner stated that a majority of the committee consisted of
lace, Mr. Parker re orte—d shsometime before the inquiry
took
friends of Mr. Parker, and opponents of the Poor-law; P
vourably.—He did nopt tat the unton was going on fa-
whereas, eight out of the fifteen were in favour of it. Eight
defend the Poor-law C hesitate to say that he td h
s oo t ere to
were nominated by the Hon. Gentleman who moved the appoint-
the Poor-law ornrnissis ners, but he could not
defend all
ment of the Committee ( Mr. Etwall), and seven by the Noble Commissioners had done. He they were free from ne. He did not say that
Lord the Member for Cavan, the chairman of the Committee.limme, but he But there was another point to which he would wish to call the every man to defend thosepublic thought it wrs the duty of
men with whom
attention of the House, namely, to the statements relative to they had been connecred in a public caps
keg hear.)
Mr. Chadwick, who was termed "a discontented secretary." One of the allegations against Mr. Parker was that he had
Now he was anxious to say that Mr. Chadwick was most not conducted the
anxious to subject his conduct to the strictest investigation. way in which inquiryhe
properly, and he thought that the
inquiry was conducted had not been
He had abstained from making any mention relative to the conducted with '
Poor-law Commissioners until the present eccasion, in con- med u thei impartiality. The Committee had not aura-
r report that there was not sufficient reasons for the
sequence of the statements of the Noble Lord at the corn_ dismisPs 1
the
Poo of the Session. He had always been a warm friend and the
of Mr. Parker and Mr. Day, but that the time
e mode in which it was done inflictedgreat
of the Poor-law, and at the time he made his motion for
an and therefore he was justified in say ing that the Committee
inquiry into the conduct of the s2ornmissioners, relat.
Parker, he did net foresee the facts which would tve to Mr. had uotadopted a resolution so sweeping as that stated by the
come to ligla lion. Gentleman. The general accusation against Mr Parker
before the Andover Committee. He denied
been influenced by hostility to the that he had ever was, that he had lost their conidenec, and, therefore,
he had a seat in that House,Commissioners even before it was not good or advantageous for the public that
undergraduate of Cambridge, he ho While yet an that he should be retained. Now, in his opinion,
written a pamphlet in its there were different grounds for that loss of confidence, but
defence, he would conclude by observing that he thought the whether there were or not, they had no right to impute cor-
present measure involved an excellent principle. rupt motives, unless theycould be proved. Now what was the
he did not see the reason or the case against Mr. Parker? That gentleman distinctly stated,
necessity of a central
board resident in London. The law that the Commissioners had come to a resolution to dismiss
was most objectionable, and inthe him, in order to cast the blame from their own
west of England was most
unpopular. He was
h had
his;
but this statement e
at a loss to conceive why local boards been unable to prove. He
constituted as they now . now came to the case of Mr. Day •
were, were not permitted to carry out
his and the difference between
the poor-law. He did case and that of Mr. Parker '
was, that none of the Poor-
not see the advantage to be gained by
the public, in respect Commissioners, or,
law. indeed, anybody else, imputed to him
to the proposed alterations. It ap-
peared to him thatthey • • intentional neglect. Their .
were beginning to legislate upon this in whole ground of objection to Mr.
all-ins Day was, that while in the discharge of a very diffie
all-important question, and that he would sa •• was in the
) in the cult duty, they found him unequal to the task; anti
while direction. There was something so erroneous
whide they, therefore, system that it was impossible that it could be altered _ re, thought it not safe or expedient ta
confide the care of that district, to which he had been
advantageously. Although there were many Members in
favour of the poor law, yet he were a how man who would I appointed, any longer. And, therefore, in the discharge
Irise in that House and say that the law had succeeded. The lof a very painful discretion, they considered it right to require
Hon. ;Venter for Bath conceived that the burning of hayricks his resignation. One of the charges brought against t 17.• Coa
•

N

' -t6
) A:*
_
-
) t

mg.,