The Sun.
London, England, 1840-03-21 00:00:00

ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.

Sir HUSSEY VIVIAN said that before going into the
Ordnance Estimates he was anxious to say a few words on
1 what had just occurred. He felt highly fl Attired by what
had been said by his Right Him. Friend opposite, as a
reason why he ought not to have replied to the charges
which had been brought against him. Perhaps, as far as
he himself was personally concerned, he ought not to
have done so, but his Right Hon. and Gallant Friend
could not be aware of the mischief to the Academy, which
had been the consequence of the propagation of the atro-
cious reports to which he had alluded.—( Loud cheers.)
Ile would now propose the Ordnance Estimates for the
year, and in doing so it was not his intention to trespass at
any length upon the attention of the House. The Esti-
mates of this year somewhat exceeded the Estimates of
last year, and in the debate on the Navy and Army Esti-
mates, his Hon. Friend the Member for Kilkenny had
said that there seemed to be a sort of esprit du corps
among the heads of departments, to see who could make
their Estimates the highest ; he could, however, assure his
Hon. Friend, that in preparing the Ordnance Estimates
the only spirit that had actuated him had been a spirit of
economy as strict as was consistent with the efficiency of
the department over which he presided, and which would
always be with him a matter of the first consideration.—
( flear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had frequently re-
ferred to the year 1792, for the purpose of contrasting the
amount proposed at the present day with the estimates of
that period—now he thought that it his Hon. Friend would
compare the estimates of the present year with those of the
year 1792, be would not find much reason to complain.
The total amount of expenditure for the Ordnance De-
partment in the year 1792 amounted to 422.000/., from
which a deduction was to be made of 21,0001. on account
of superannuations, which were then paid by the Ordnance
Department, and which were not paid by that Department
at present. This would make the Ordnance Estimates for
the year 1792 amount to 400 000/.--t Hear, hear.)
the present year the expense of the Ordnance had
been 1,812,0001., from which, if they deducted the sum of
1,370,3461. on account of services performed by the Ord-
nance Department, and with which it was not chargeable
in 1792, they would find that in reality the expense of the
Ordnance Departmeni, as compared with that year,
amounted only to 442,000/., and when the Hon. Gentle-
man recollected the enormous a xtent of our colonial pos-
sessions he thought he would find that this estimate was not
an extravagant one. In the first vote which he should pro-
pose for the Ordnance civil establishment it would be found
that there was an increase of 231. over the vote of last year
—this arose from an increase in the amount of salaries paid
in that Department. In the second vote for the Ordnance
and Engineering Department it would be found that as
compared with the vote of last year there was a decrease
of 722/. In the third vote for the Royal Artillery, Horse
Artillery, Master-General's Department, there was an in-
crease of 1,3471.—this was occasioned by an increase
in the rate of pay its that Department, and
the additional number of Artillerymen which had
been employed. In the fourth vote for the barrack de-
partment, there was an increase of 3,326/. This was
occasioned by the addition which had taken place in the
number of barracks in the United Kingdom. In the fifth
vote, under the head of extraordinaries, there was an in-
crease of 67,0001. This increase was attributable to the
increased expense of providing proper comfort and accom-
modation for the troops in Canada, by the erection of ad-
ditional buildings, and also by an increased amount of bar-
rack accommodation in the Colonies. There was also an
increase of 10,000/. for the erection of barracks at Porto
Bello ; and in the next case there was an increase of
36,000/. from military and civil contingencies. The army
extraordinaries used formerly to supply the augmenting
department on foreign stations with articles which were
now supplied by themselves. This had taken 40,000/.
from the army extraordinaries. On the next vote there
was an increase of 19,0001. under the head of stores,
5,000/. of this were for providing percussion arms, as had
been alluded to last year, 9,000/. were for an increase in
the Ordnance stores, and 4,000/. for an increase in the ar-
tdlerymen. An increase had taken place in the Commissariat;
they supplied different articles, such as boats, for the use
of the department in the Colonies, and when two regiments
of cavalry were last year conveyed from Ireland to England,
it was at the expense of this department ; and the conse-
quent increase amounted to 13,000/. The total increase in
the whole of the estimates of this year,as compared with those
of last year, was 152,566/. The whole expense of this year
for the Ordnance Department was 1,971,042/. The credits
for the present year were 86,0001. ; last year they were
93,000/. ; consequently, they were this year 7,2401. less ;
and the total amount of money proposed to be voted for
the service of the Ordnance Department during the present
year was 1,885,0421.
Sir HENRY HARDINGE wished to ask if, in the
case of the barracks in the West Indies, there had been, on
the part of the Ordnance department, anything like an
accidental neglect in supplying the troops with proper
accommodation ? He did not for a moment impute inten-
tional neglect, but he would ask his Right Hon. and
Gallant Friend whether that accommodation could not be
better afforded by some other department than the Ord-
nance. He had moved for papers on this subject, which,
although laid on the table, had not been printed; and the
Noble Lord the Member for Northumberland had moved
for other papers, which had not yet been produced. He
hoped that when those papers were laid upon the table
some discussion on this subject would take place.
Sir HUSSEY VIVIAN regretted that the papers had
not yet been laid upon the table. He denied that there
had been the slightest inattention on the part of the
Ordnance to the state of the barracks, either in the Colo-
nies or at home; and he should be glad to meet the Noble
Lord on that subject before the House. His Right Hon.
Friend knew well what were the regulations with regard
to the barracks in the Colonies. In every colony there
was an officer of the Engineers, whose attentioe was spe-
cially directed to the state of the barracks. It was his duty
to make a special report on the subject. That report tbey
got every year. The repairs and estimates were imme-
diately considered, and what was necessary to be done
was ordered ; and he should not have the slightest diffi-
culty in proving, when the subject came before the House,
that no neglect was attributable to the Ordnance De-
partment.
Sir H. HARDINGE was glad to hear the explanation,
and trusted, when the papers were laid before the House,
the question would be fully gone into.
Mr. HUME thought it was rather irregular in the
Right Hon. Gentleman, who held himself up as the pat-
tern of order and regularity, to introduce this discussion
now, instead of when the subject of barracks was under
consideration. He could only express his deep regret to
see so large an Estimate, but having voted the Navy and
Army Estimates, they must supply the men with arms. It
was useless to take any objection now : when new taxes
were laid on, then would be the time to grumble. He
believed the Hon. and Gallant Officer conducted his de-
partment as economically as any in the service, but he
must protest against his allegation, that the present Esti-
mates did not exceed those of 1792. In that year the
number of Artillerymen was 4,000 ; at the present time it
was 8,800 ; and how:it could be contended that there was
no increase was a paradox he could not pretend to under-
stand. He was not the only person who took 1792 as the
standard ; three military Committees which had sat had
all taken the same view. He meant no reflection in what
he was about to say, but until the Ordnance De-
partment was altogether new modelled, which he
had hoped to see done before this, ho could not
expect the expenses to be lessened. He ( Mr. flume)
would not allow the estimates to pass without expressing
his opinion that our engineers and the officers of the Ar-
tillery were at present very ill ussd. In England nothing
was known to the Commander in Chief of the officers of the
Artillery except through intermediate agents, and that he
thought derogated from their character, and was injurious
to their interests, as there was no opportunity of properly
appreciating their merits. lie would, therefore, strongly
recommend that the Artillery should be always under the
immediate command of the Commander-in-Chief, as he
thought that change would be attended with the best
effects. It was an anomalous circui..stance, that when
our Artillery were sent to the Colonies, they were no
longer under the instructions of the Ordnance, but under
the authority of the Commander-in-Chief, and he thought
it would be advisable that that rule should be applied in
sll cases. He also wished that the officers in question
should have an opportunity of being employed on staffs,
and of being raised to other lucrative situations. Thero
was an item which he did not wish to let pass unnoticed.
He alluded to the management of the stores, for which 38s.
per cwt. was paid, and he thought that to be a very large
sum. With regard to the barrack department, he should
:lion that the management of it had been very much
improved, though he could not but say that the expenses of
it were still very high.
Sir 11 E NRY HARDINGE thought that the barrack
department should continue to be conducted by the Ord-
nance, which he thought best fitted for the task. He
was quite ready to give his testimony to the admirable
manner in which that department had been conducted,
and he thought that the union of the Barrack and the Ord-
nance Departments, commenced by the Duke of Welling_
in 1832, had been attended with the best results.
Sir DE LACY EVANS could not view without ap-
prehension the experiment recommended by his Hon.
Friend the Member for Kilkenny. He did not wish to
separate the Artillery from the Ordnance Department.
and he believed that! our artillery, as at present managed,
transcended that of all other countries.—( Hear, hear.)
' With regard to the engineering department, it was well
known that there had been a want of experience felt ;is
i,
e thou withgiit
that quarter at the commencement ofthe last war, but he
believed that that deficiency had since been supplied.
There was a
Friend subject, however, o
n which h e agreed
his Hon. the t
Member
with him that sufficient encouragement was not at present
r Kilkenny.
for
held out to our artillery officers, and when these officers
rose to a certain rank their hopes of farther advancement
might be said to cease for life. He strongly disagreed,
d
however, from his Hon. Friend in thinking that any of the
uties with which it was now charged should be discharged
from the Ordnance Department.
Mr. HUME said he merely wished that engineers at
home and abroad should be placed on the same footing.
He had to complain that abroad officers of the Artillery
generally selected their sons as aides-du-camp. He
thought that such a circumstance was very injurious to the
service,
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