The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-10 00:00:00

EVENING EDITION.

the crimes which were now punishable c. tpitally that
were, he had almost said of so trivial, a natiare, that no
one would think for a moment of applying even the
next punishment to them, so that by the present plan
the House would have it in its power to apportion what
punishment it thought proper to any individual crime.
With a few exceptions, the Bill was in forrn and sub-
stance similar to that introduced last year. lie must,
however, express his regret that he was unable to lay
on the table of the House, at the present time, the Bills
for the abolition of capital punishment in Scotland and
Iseland as well as in England ; but he thought it
,was too much for any individual Member to bring in
three Bills at the same time for the abolition of capital
punishment. If capital punishment, in all cases pro-
vided for by the present Bifl, were abolished in Eng-
land, it would be virtually abolished in Ireland and Scot-
land also ; and where the Legislature would sanction a
Bill of that nature for England, he thought that a si-
milar Bill for Ireland and Scotland would meet with no
opposition in either House of Parliament. He would
rut
ell:
arsioenemwdndpt
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if,
itbringtheisieeorenteiol
gsnloiivni;tarssreiiya_t-
therefore pledge himself, when the House was satise
fan 'I to
e
or
IBctretti 1 italtihissiasetitefli theßSra einci
qp,al
ver
nt
nt. A Itimaung)ll so-reonfilrarta.npyunibsuht-
punjishme,
tn: Crown for the time being, to hope
inent mater.,lllY
impracticable .f°!.
in Carrying
,-ny measure through Parliament
the Ministers of
success
for the material alteration of the
e obvious, t olasverejthn
respecting
in
ingsoecr(oienr-
dary punishment. It was q
to introduce a new system of aceonalary punishment, a
Government account, in the criminal anapenditure of the
public money, would be saved on the one hand and
expended on the other, in bringing in the new system
into operation ; a number of public officers should be
appointed,
and other steps taken which wouial be in-
dispensably necessary, and all those steps would be of
such a character as that it was ohs ions none but the
Ministers of the Crown could hope to pass— a measure
.which would have for its object the amendment
of the law respecting secondary punishment.—(Hear.)
If no other Member would turn his attention to the
subject, he expected that he should himself be able to
introduce some resolutions by way of suggestions with
regard to secondary. punishment. He hoped that the
Hon. Member for Leeds (Sir \V. Molesworth) to whom
the House and the country were already so much in-
debted for the attention he had paid to that question,
would introduce.some measure with respect to it. But
if no Hon. Member, and if the Government, were not
prepared to introduce a Bill on the subject, he would
think it his duty to undertake the task. He wished to
say a few words in allusion to the Bill which he under-
stood it was the intention of Ministers to bring forward,
for the further abolition of capital punishment. Ho
had been sincerely gratified at that announcement, and
if the Government had found it convenient to leo on the
table of the House, the Bill which they proposed
to introduce, at the time at which he had given
notice of his motion, he v; ould not then have
interfered on the subject, but he would have de-
ferred his motion until he bed made himself acquainted
with that Bill, and until he had ascertained whether it
would carry his (Mr. Kelly's) intentions into effect. But
the Hon. Member, the Under-Secretary of State for
the Home Department, had intimated that the measure
in question would not be submitted to the House for
the space of another month, and no disclosure had been
made as to the extent to which it would go ; so that
he felt it his duty to submit to the House the motion
then under their consideration. He hoped the House
would accede to that motion ; but he certainly should
not ask them to go into Committee until they had an
opportunity of becoming acquainted with the Ministe-
rial measure ; and if he found that measure coextensive
with his own, he would cheerfully resign the task ho
had undertaken. The Hon. and Learned Member
concluded by moving for leave to bring in a 1311 for the
abolition of the punishment of death in certain cases.
Mr. E W A RT said that, in sccondine the motion, he
hoped he would not be considered as unfavourable to
one of a more extensive nature. He certainly thought
that the time had come when capital punishment might
be abolished altogether. That was a truth, of which
every day's experience convinced him more and more ;
and he Loped, on a future occasion, to lay before them
proofs in support of that opinion from a very eminent
person, the Speaker of the House of Aseembly in the
Duchy of Baden. For his part, lie was persuaded that
crime diminished with the abolition of capital punishment.
The interest taken in this question was net confined to
this country. Tee attention of the Legislature of every
civilized country in the world had been turned to it.—
( Hear.) He thought the punishment of transporta-
tion ought not to be made a principal punishment, but
reserved as secondary, and to be resorted to in cases
where a removal from his native country might be likely
to lead to reformation of the criminal. He trusted that
whichever measure was finally adopted I.y the House, it
would be ee-extensive with the reforms cf the age.
Lord J. RUSSELL thought that the lion. Gentle-
man who proposed the motion had rightly stated the
number of punishments in the period to which his
tables referred. Tae difficulties of the question, how-
ever, were so great, that not only the heads of the law,
as the lion. and Learned Member had rightly stated,
were divided upon it ; but when a treasure similar to
that proposed by the Hon. and Learned Member was
introduced by Sir J. Mackintosh, it was opposed by
the whole strength of the Government ; and on its
being carried through a third reading, the Minister, sup
ported by a few Members who afterwards came in,
resisted it upon the question that this Bill do pass,
and succeeded in throwing it out.—(Hear, hear.)
The lion, and Learned Gentleman was, at the same
time, rigit in saying that a great change had ap-
peared, not only in the spirit of the different Govern-
ments, but likewise in the opinions of the heads of the
law, and those to whose opinions great deference was
always properly paid. He (Lord John Russell) agreed
with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman thus far, but
he confessed he did not agree with him that it was ex-
pedient to change the criminal law to the extent which
he proposed, with a view, as he had stated last year, of
abolishing the punishment of death altogether. At the
same time, he admitted that there ought to be further
change and mitigation. lie admitted there were some
crimes now by law punishable with death which ought
not to be so punished, and therefore he could not refuse
leave to bring in a Bill by which the punishment of
death in such cases was proposed to be abolished. It
would be for subsequent consideration how far
it was proposed to carry such mitigation. It was
to be always remembered that the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, and the Hon. Gentleman who se-
conded the motion, declared their object to
be the entire abolition of the punishment of
do oho—(Hear, hear.) 'Fhis was their object, stated
undisguisedly, and it was an object in which he (Lord
John Russell) could not concur. Now there were,
with respect to offences still remaining on the Statute
Book as punishable with death, two distinct classes.
There were certain offences with respect to which
hardly any one could wish that the punishment of
death should be retained, but for which, having been so
punished in former times, that punishment still remained
upon the Statute Book, there having been no subse-
quent Act of the Legislature upon the subject. There
were others respecting which there still existed great dif-
ficulty. Instances of both those classes were discussed in
Committee last year. There were offences created by a
single statute, but which were classed in the manner
which was then the custom, and coupled with classes
of graver offences—offences of altogether a different na-
ture, and all punishable with death—he meant the
offences of destroying ships and stores in dockyards.
Now the former was an offence which he thought par-
took of the character of high treason—( Hear, hear)—
but there were in the same statute other offences, those
of destroying ropes and destroying stores in dockyards.t
which, of themselves, considered as offences rgealutihs.
property, ought not to be punished with
containing two distinct classes of offence:, both
of whichp he
'With respect to that statute it was an instabnocteboaf(tailraew.
sent punishable with death,
-nue( t tyeatt
so
while it should be retained for the other.
ter diffe
other cases in which there was a g
h I ei '1 difference
thought the punishment of deathfrsahmould be takenLaway,T
was true that secondary p
enable him to state what second-
arywell considered ashetoweuld
The lion. and Learned
substitute for the punish-
He (Lord John Russell) agreed with
punishments uGnei snht mi e 'lncas were
but, at the same time, the Hon. and
that opinion ;
said that he did not thinkthat •
Gentleman
Learnedh, 0 Roy of any individual to take up the question
punish-
ment of death.
was - duty of
but that the consideration
of secondary
of that question must devolve upon the Government.
He held that opinion good also, but if so, he thought
that that Government which had so much mitigated the
Criminal Law in 1837, and which had subsequently
devoted so much attention to the consideration of
secondary punishments, might have been left
at liberty to consider the whole subject, and
that the Honourable and Learned Gentleman
might have given them further time, without interposing
thus early in the Session with the present motion. He
agreed that mush remained vet to be done with respect
to secondary punialiments, and that a system of se-
condary punishments entirely satisfactory could not
be established until they had other prisons main-
tained at the expense of the State—(Hear, hear,
hear)—in which persons might be confined who were at
present liable to such punishments as transportation.
At all events, it was clear that much required to be
amended before any system could he satisfactorily esta-
blished. The lion. and Learned Gentleman had alluded
to the alteration of the law in 1837. At that time he
.
(Lord John Russell) had proposed that❑ certaincases
which were then liable to be punished with death, that
be done away with, and transporta-
ant for five years be substituted. The
punishment should
tion or imprison:in.
other House of Parliament thought that imprisonment
for fire years was too long a period, and gave three
years for the maximum of imprisonment that could
be inflicted for those offences ; and such was the
state of the law at present. Ther_e were now, in
consequence, many Acts on the Statute Book inflicting
imprisonment for five or seven years for offences of less

lIIP

grave nature than those for which imprisonment for
three years was the maximum punishment that could be
inflicted at present It was evident to him with respect
to this subject that it was necessary to take a compre-
hensive view of the whole subject, and that punishments
should be made commensurate with the offence. In
legislating on this subject for the future, they should
endeavour to take a general tiew of the whole subject,
so that there might not be heavy punishments for light
offences, and light punishments for serious crimes. The
Hon. Gentleman's proposition would do away with a
great amount of capital punishment, but it must be
well considered before it was adopted.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
EAST INDIA PRODUCE.
Mr. EWA RT in withdrawing a motion of which
he had given notice relative to the "reduction of re-
maining high duties on E ist India produce to the same
rate of duty as is levied on similar articles, the produce
of the West Indies," said he hoped that by one conclu-
sive measure all those invidious differences which ex-
isted in the matters to which his motion referred, would
be swept from the Statute Book. Since he gave notice
of his motion, her Majesty's Government had, he under-
stood, given notice of motion to bring in a Bill to the
same effect. The duties to which his (Mr. Ewart's)
motion referred were distinguished, first into agricul-
tural duties, next into duties respecting manufactures,
an I thirdly into Colonial duties, such as those on the
produce of Ceylon, &c. He hoped that her Majesty's
Government would think it proper to embrace all those
subjects in the most comprehensive manner, and that
they would not confine the alterations proposed to the
single article of rum. He hoped that it was not a li-
mited commercial reform which they intended to carry
into effect. In his opinion the reform ought to be by
far more comprehensive than what he understood it
was intended to propose. As, however, the question
would come before the House on Friday next, he would
not, in justice to the Government, who had thus shown
their willingness to advance commercial reform, pre-
durely disclose his views on the matter. The Hon.
Gentleman concluded by stating that he withdrew his
motion for the present.
TITHE RECOVERY ACT.

Captain PEC HELL, in rising to introduce the mo-
tion of which he had given notice, relative to " a Bill to
amend the Tithe Recovery Act (5 and 6 Will. IV.),
end to take away the jurisdiction from the Ecclesiastical
Courts in all matters relating to 'tithes of a certain
tonount;' said that it might be in the recollection of the
House that in the year 1835, a Bill which he had the
honour to introduce was passed in the sth and 6th year
.of William IV. Br that Act it was provided that all
suits to which it referred should be held before the Jus-
tices of the Peace, and it appeared now that the Ec-
clesiastical Courts did not came within the scope of
her 11Iajesty's Courts. He had no doubt that they
could not be called her Majesty's Courts, but it was the
object of the House to prevent all suits with respect to
tithes being carried before the Superior Courts. A pe-
tition was now lying on the table of the House in which
it was stated that a poor woman, named Sarah Young,
relying upon the Act of the sth and 6th Will. IV., was
cited to appear before the Bishop's Court at Llandaff,
at the suit of a Reverend Divine, whose name he would
not mention, for an alleged arrear of tithes, to the
amount of 7s. The poor woman was unable to make
her appearance. She was, in consequence, held, in
contempt, and confined in the gaol of Monmouth, where
she remained seven months. Another case occurred in
the diocese of Exeter. It appeared that a citation was
isticrl to a person named Hill, who had not complained
to that House, but whose case was well known.. That
gentleman employed a proctor, who advised him, when
he should pat in an answer to the citation. The man
appeared in the Court, and held up the Act of the sth
and Gth Will. IV. ; but to his own astonishment, and
that of the proctor whom he had employed, the case
wes disini,:sed, but without costs. If a person liable for
tithes to any small amount were cited to appear before
the Bishop's Court, be understood that in-such citation
no mention was made as to the sum claimed. When
the Act passed in 1833, all parties were desirous a com-
position should take place, and that •had been settled,
he believed, to the satisfaction of all parties. Nobody
could deny that it was it:Orly-desirable the Ecclesiasti-
cal Courts should be placed on the same footing as her
I,lajesfy's Courts. He had hoped that the'Noble Lord
would bring in a IA to abolish the jurisdiction of the
Ecclesiastical Courts in tithe cases altogether, but, at
any rate, he hoped the House would agree to the Bil'
be then mored for leave to bring in.
Mr. HA WSE seconded the motion.
Dr. NICHOL said, that all the difficulty had arisen
in consequence of the Hen. and Gallant Member
being rush e bungler at legislation, and meddling with
a subject that he was not acquainted with.—(Laughter
and cries of Oh, oh.)
Mr. FOX MAULE thought thst great responsi-
bility was attached to the Hon. and Learned Gentle- •
men (Dr. Nichol), because he was perfectly well aware
of the measure", and allowed it to pls.?, in its imperfect
shape..—( Hear, hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME suhrn'tted that the observations of the I
Learned Civilian v,cre, perfectly unjustifiable.—(Haar,
hear.) Great cre.nt W.,3 due to the lion. and G Mara
GerAlcrnan fur tatting up the subject, but 'lle did not
t'lnk that the conduct of the Hen. and Learned
Ciii-
i was wry praiseworthy, who, seeing an error, had
thought fit to correct it.—(llear, hear )
COUNTY COURTS.

Mr. FOX M A ULE in moving for leave to bring in
a Bill to improve the practice and extend the jurisdic-
tien of County Courts observed, that he approached
Cie suljeet with great diffitlsnce, when ho considered
1::at the measure hid tee-lye:I the attention of such
teen L Althorp, Lord Brougham, and the Rght
lion. Geeilereen opposite (Sir R. Peel). The House
would, however agree that, connected as be was with a
department which h arl the surveillance of the adminis-
tration of jestice, he could not shut his eyes to the
re,,isure er to the extent of the demand the public
feel msde on this subject. Year after year, the tale 1
of the House bed been crowded with petitions, and
sees scarcely a -district in Kigland from I
cations for private Bills to authorise
to recovery of sena!l debts had not emanated. lie
thought that instead of that piece-meal legislation
they mould assimilate the low in all parts of England
and Wales. He would not enumerate all the evils of
the pres:oit system, he would only refer to the fifth
Report of the Law Commissioners ; all the grievances
had been so long complained of were there de-
tailed, and most of the remedies which lie now proposed
would be found there reecminended. The principles of
Ills measure were first to extend the jurisdiction of the
County Courts to debts amounting to twenty pounds.
Tills wee not the time to discuss the details of the
but he would state some of the most. impertent. It
11,23 his intention to propose that the Courts should be
aeibulatory—that the Judge hiving a fixed court in
a central part of his district should visit such other
ports from time to time as her Majesty should please
to eppoint. He proposed that the Judge should have
a Led salary, and be removable at the pleasure of the
Crown only. He proposed that the deficiency of salary
aboee the amount of the fees, instead of being paid out
cf the county rates. should be paid out of the comolidated
fund. He next proposed to render those Courts more
s'mple in their fortes and process, and more easy dee-
CCS3. The first process should be by summons calling
on the defendant to appe 1r and if he should fail to
eeswer that summons judgment should be given
agatest him. But on showing cause for his
noa-appearanee he might have a new trial. In
case's he should give the Judge the power of
peremptorily deciding by whieh;party the- casts should be
paid. In turns below 51. the Judge should decide alone
:rid summarily. But in cases where the amount is
dispute was above W. and not above 20/. the action
should be referred to a Jury of fi7e persons. He next
proposed that both parties should be examined utten
oath. Since this measure was first introduced, no teas
than twenty-two local Bills had been framed uponea
siceilar principle, and in each of them t::ile Lordepowercofht.
peinting the local Judges was rested in
cam.. All these would be. merged in this generalenea' .
sure, should it pass. The patronage of this measure
could not be vested in other hands than those who were
responsible to both souses of Parliament. With re-
spect to the patronage of Manorial Courts, he did not
propose to interfere with it, but merely to improve the
whole administration of justice. He proposed that the
Judges should receive a salary commencing at c oora
year, and increasing as business increased, but not to
exceed '1,500/. a year. The Judges were not
to practice as barristers. These were the outlines
of the measure he proposed. Its great principle was
to establish in this country local Courts of a peremptory
character, to which the poorer classes should have im-
mediate access, and which, instead of sitting in one
part of the county, calling tbem, with their witnesses,
and all the apparatus of legislation, a distance from
home, should be near to it, and by rendering justice to
.all give them that confidence in the administration of
pestle:3 which, he was sorry to sly, he feared they did
not now possess. In the county with which he was
more immediately connected, similar Courts were esta-
blished to those he now sought to establish by this
Bill. Three years ago t measure passed that House
which certainly attracted little notice, but which gave
her Majesty power to declare in what parts of the coun-
ties of Scotland Small Debt Courts should be estab-
lished, and this measure had given great benefit and
satisfaction to the people of that country. He hoped,
in the course of this Session, to see a similar benefit
conferred by this measure on the people of England.—
Ilear, hear.) He apologized to the House for under-
taking a measure connected with a profession to which
he did -not belong, but he • had thought much on the
subject, and being convinced of its great importance,
sad felt it to be his duty to undertake it.—(Cheers.)
Mr. EWART hoped he might be allowed to express
an opinion-on this subject, having been solicited by in-
dividuals in that part of Lancashire to tvhich he be-
looged to introduce a similar measure. These Courts
existed, and were
found very beneficial, in Scotland and
-`''lreland, and he hoped they
would soon be established
in England. He,
howei..er, thought it would be better
not to prevent the' Sudges practising as barristers...
.There -was one innovation in the.
Bill worthy of all

winch app