The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-30 00:00:00

ENGLAND.

Lord BROUGHAM would take that opportunity of
correcting a misrepresentation of what ne had said the
other night with respect to the removal of the Irish
paupers from Liverpoul and Glasgow. He had bcen re-
presented as saying that the Irish paupers should be re-
moved at once from those towns. He found, on con
sultation with Mr. Rushton. that there was great diffi-

culty in the law, for although there was a power of
transferring Irish and Scotch paupers beyond the water,
and beyond the border, yet the doing so was so beset
with difficulty that the law could hardly be acted upon.
' Ile trusted, therefore, that some declaratory Act would
.1 • shortly be brought in to remedy the evil.
Lord DESART said, in reference to a statement
which the Noble and Learned Lord had made the other
night, that the landholders of Ireland, or their agents,
• • had given money to the paupers on their estates, to
enable them to go to Liverpool and such places in
England, he had written to persons residing in various
parts of Ireland upon the subject, and only in one
instance had he ascertained that there was any founda-
tion for the statement of the Noble Lord.
Lord BROUGHAM said he made the statement upon
the authority of Mr. Rushton, of Liverpool, who had
transmitted to him the reports of three police inspectors,
' in which it was stated that many of the Irish paupers of
Liverpool had admitted that they had received from
three shillings to five shillings from their landlords or
their agents to enable them to get to Liverpool.
.• The people could not come over for nothing ;it might
• be said that the pressure of the famine had sent them
over, but then the famine could not pay their passage.
Then it had been said that the steam-boat proprieters
paid them to come over, but it was absurd to suppose
that they would pay them 2s. 6i. to come over,
' for the sake of getting 2s. 6d. to take them
back again. He had been informed that
numbers of the tenants had received 5/. each
to tear or burn doss n their cabins for the sake of enab
ling their landlords thus to get rid of them. He could
not help making a passing allusion to the praiseworthy
conduct of the Society of Friends; they had already
raised among themselves upwards of 50,0001. to-
wards the relief of the Irish poor, and, upon the
occasion of the fast day, they not thinking it right
to keep that day sacred, had given the half of
° their earnings and profits to the same charitable
object. He quite agreed with the Society of Friends
•: that works of mercy were better than works of sacr.fice.
A Noble Friend of his on the bench was travelling his
circuits upon the fast day, and upon arriving at one of
tls'the towns in Wales, he found it quite impossible to ob-
tain a morsel of bread, or anything in the shape of viands,
~ so completely had the zeal of the Welsh people to keep
.-..•
) the fast rummaged the whole of the town.—(Laughter.)
A NOBLE LORD —IIi3 Lordship kept the fast.

BANKRUPTCY AND INSOLVENCY LAWS.
Lord ASHBURTON presented a petition from the
Merchants and traders of the city of London, pm\ ing-
their Lordships to alter or amend the laws relating to
Bankruptcy and Insole-ncy. The Nob:e Lord consi-
dered the petition so important that he would move
that it should be read.
The Clerk at the tab!e, therefore, read the petition.
Lord BROUGHANI exp Lined that the newspapers
Which had stated that his opinion had changed on the
subject of imprisonment for debt were in error. His
opinion upon that subject-had undergone no change.
NATIONAL SCHEME OF EDUCATION.
Lord DESART presented several p,titions against the
Government scheme of education.
NATIONAL POOR-RATE.

Lord WHARNCLIFFE presedted a petition, praying
for the enactment of a national poor rate. In doing so,
he said that he was still of the opinion which he had
expressed last year, that it would be quite unadvisable
to enter into the question of the settlement of the poor
until the whole matter was under the consideration of
Parliament, for if they came to any ill advised altera-
tion of the Act of last year, he felt'assured that it would
lead to great confusion and difficulty for those who had
to administer the law.
SERVICE IN THE ARMY.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose to ask the
questions of which he had given notice. He had,
therefore, to inquire whether the Bill now introduced
into the House of Commons by her Majesty's Govern-
ment for limiting the time of service in the army has
the sanction and approbation of the Commander. in Chief,
and if it has originated on his recommendation to her
Majesty's Government, or if any opinions have been taken
by any board of general officers, or other military
authorities on the measure. Whether it is the intention of
her Majesty's Ministers to advise her Majesty to issue
her royal warrant, as in October, 1806, for fixing and
raising the pensions of non-commissioned officers and
• soldiers who become entitled to their discharge by, rea-
son of expiration of certain perWs of service, viz., to
non-commissioned officers to ls.t Od., to privates Is.,
thus returning to the standard thought advisable at that
period, -.when limited service was first introduced, in.
stead of remaining at the diminished pensions now esta-
blished.
Earl GREY said that although no inconvenience
• might arise to the public service by giving an explicit
reply to the question, yet it was plainly improper that
confidential communications between the Ministers and
the Horse Guards should be brought before the House,
and he could, therefore, return no answer at all. With
respect to the second question, he had to say that n 4,
such warrant as that to which" the Noble Marquis al-
luded had been issued, or was intonded to be issued.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY had then to move
for copies of all the communications between her
Majesty's Ministers and the Horse Guards with
. respect to the term of enlistment for service
and also with respect to the increase of pen-
sions, according to the minute of October 18, 1846.
As th© oldest general officer in the service, he felt b.,und
' to perform this duty :it was a duty he did not shrink
from, because he felt Confident that nine out of ten of the
general officers of the army were opposed to this Bill.
He thought they had a right to kn. w what were the
opinions of the general officers of the army on the sub-
ject. There was not at present a single military officer
in the Cabinet. In matters of law, in the navy, or in
the church, the opinions of the dignataries, or the offi
cers at the head of the department were studied ; but
with respect to the army a great and fundamental change
was now to be brought about under the rec ,mmenliaion
of the Secretary at War, who was, no doubt, a very
respectable sort of gentleman, but certainly knvw no
more about the army than one of the clerks at the table.
He said that was nut the first time that a limited service
had been proposed. A similar proposition was made in'
1806, and before that in 1757. Had the present mea-
sure resembled that of Mr. Wyndham, who proposed
pensions for the soldiers after their service had expired,
there would have been some encouragement for the.
army. But by this measure it was proposed that at the
end of ten years the soldier could demand his dircharge.
Now, only let them suppose this arrangement had been
in existence during the war. Suppose the Duke of
Yu:k had had a number of these young men from twenty
. to twenty-five years of age, what would have been the
consequence? Why that army, after their first catnpaien,
was ordered to Copenhagen, thence to Corunna ; from
Coruuna to Vimeira, and thence to Talavera. Such
was the service which these forces saw. How soon, he
asked, could a recruit be fitted for his duty ? Sir C.
Napier, an authority on such a subject, had said that an
infantry soldier could be fitted for his dut,es completely
in three or four years ; but he (i he Marquis of Lot-don-
derry), as a cavalry officer, t.y.k upon him to sa3 that a
good cavalry soldier could nut be made under
five or six years. lie could not speak of the artil-
lery ; but if a cavalry soldier could not be per
feetly fitted under that time, en artillery soldier
could not be prepared in a shorter period.
Their cavalry was not like the cavalry of continental
countries, for the officers by purchases or promotions
Were always changing, and great irregularity and em
barrasstnent wou.d be the consequence of the soldit r.
being allowed, at the expiration of ten ye,,rs, to retire
from the service. It should be remembered that it
- required five years of hard discip.ine to make a good
. soldier, it should be remembered also that under the
present admirable regulations it would only require a
were trifle to buy a man off. The best mode of getting
Men for the service was the men that would stand by
them the lowest—British well and Britis;; bayonets—
and he sine.-rely hopeJ Gov.rum. let would not, for the
sake of false theories, go against all practice. Lie
thought Government could do no better good than by

I
re,tormg the pensions of the non c anmissioned efficers
And privates to the position in which they stood form r 1:.
He entirely concurred in the opinion, that if thi•. Bill
sh told pass, that bounties should be given. Ile preferred
Mr. Niyalh.tm's. Bill to this, for it OW they would toc
planing one large body of soldiers in opposition to
another, and he would thereforelecoannenil the Alinlistry
to take a leaf out of tit excellent lim4c. He told them
b> forehand, in or:ler Oita they !night know what thy
had to do. Supposing they saw, that they could not stop
the Bid In the other 110m4,, and could nut ttn,refore pre-
vent this injustice to the old soldier, as compared with
the new troops—supposing they were to vote for the
whole clause, the Noble Lord must bee what a predica-
ment they would be in. The army, he believed, was
never in higher discipline or in be ter condition than it
WE sat the present moment. He believed it was invincible;
and as for comparison with foreign armies, there was no
sort of comparison that could be instituted with our own,
for they were altogether different bodies. Ile had re-
ceived a letter from an officer of considerable standing
in the army, in which that gallant officer denounccd
the proposed change as being injor.e us to the
discipline and the service of the army. The
Noble L trd then pr-ceeded to read an extract from
a speech made upon the subject in 1806, by tin- Bight
Hon. Geory Canning. in order to ~how that that
eminent statt,man's opmiti, was unfavourable t- limit, ii
enlistment. Ile WLtille,S th,m tnt.,,ainst any intern ranee
with the discipline ett the army, and tie hoped the House
would in SI ace degree cheek he desire of voine Hon.
Gemlewen to " experiment's," in matters which they
did not understand ; Kith these opinions, he targt d to
move for Copies t.f all the correspondence that had tali., n
place upon the subject of this measure, beta Ceti the
Government anti the Horse Guards ; also of all the
correspondence that had take n place with general officers
in reference to the same matter.

Esrl GREY said that he would follow the rule
of brevity, which the Noble ' Marquis had
laid down, on principle, but which he had
so much overlooked in practice, He would take another
opp e-tunity of speaking to the question of the measure
of limited enlistment, for that measure was not yet be-
fore the House ; but with reference to the motion of the
No, le Marquis, he thought it must be apparent to their
Lordships that it would be subversive of all the priori.
Iles in which the business of the Government was car-
ried on, if such returns as those moved for were granted.
The Government had consulted the authorities of the
Horse Guards on the framing of this measure. He
trusted that their Lordships would not accede to the
proposition of the Noble Lord.
The Earl of CARDIGAN said, he must state that he
looked with great apprehension on the policy of the Go-
vernment in the introduction of this Bill, for
shortening the period of enlistment in the army.
He thought that the objects hich the mea-
sure contemplated could be better obtained by
giving a better pensioe, when those individuals who
served were dischareed, and by taking means to shorten
the period of colonial service. Even by the present Bill
it was only proposed to g,ve. after a period of 34 years'
service, a retiring pension of 6d. per day, which was the
lowest amount of parochial re►ief given to the persons
who were employ eel to break stones. He did' not think
that they were thus holding out any inducement to men
to enlist in the army. But it' the Legislature did intend to
carry ibis measure into a law, he trusted that they would
take into consideration the propriety of at any rate restrict-
ing the present unlimited power which was granted is the
men of purchasing their own discharges. He could not
conceive how the law could be made to operate in the
relief' of men stationed in the colonies. They would be
obliged to keep up a perpetual system of transport from
this country to the colonies, in order to relieve these
men ; and they placed the officers who were
there stationed in a most difficult position by
removing the men just as they had be-
come disciplined. He should wish to make one
ether observation which he had not seen adverted to in
the other House of Parliament. There was a strung
prejudice in this country, as their Lordships were aware,
against a large standing army. Some of their Lord-
ships might remember that, ten or fourteen years ago,
a large body of men, somewhere above 30,000, marched
through the streets of London, in all the pomp
and panoply of marshal array. He might be told that
that body of men had dispersed quietly; but the Govern-
ment of the day were not at the time so sanguine of their
doitg so, for they had given orders to have every man
in readiness who could be found tin the neighbour-
hood of the metropolis. Now, supposing that at some
future time a similarly large body of discharged sol-
diers—men who had been taught the use of the mus-
ket for ten years—suppose that these men refused to
disperse so quietly as the others had done, he could as-
sure,their Lordships that it would be found a most diffi-
cult matter to suppress them. For these rotsens be
believed that the intended measure would be found in-
effective.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY had only one
observation to make in reply. He had only taken the
same course as a Noble Lord opposite had taken, in reply
the other night to a Noble Friend of his on his right,
and he thought that out of courtesy the papers he asked
for might have been granted. If he had been wrong in
his supposition that the 6d. a day was not to be granted,
he begged to be excused for the error, and would with-
draw his motion, at least so tar as the first part was
concerned. _ _ . _

The motion was then, by leave, withdrawn.
COLVILE PEERAGE.

Lord COLVILE, after a brief conversation, postponed
his motion until to morrow,
The Duke of RICHMOND thanked the Noble L,ird
on behalf of the Scotch Peerage fur having taken charge
of the matter, which he deemed to be of the utmost im-
p.;rtance.
LAW OF SETTLEMENT.

The Duke of RICHMOND presented several pen•
tions from Sussex and Northamptonshire, aga►nst the
!aw of settlement. The ptiiioners from the latter
county particularly compla►ned that, at►er having, by
subscriptions succeeded in clearing their villages of the
persons who were, from their position, best fitted for
emigration, they had been inundated with i.oor from out
parishes. He thought that certainly the Act of the lust
session was one of the must clumsy Amts of legislation
that had ever passed any publ►c body, and trusted that
the Government would shortly bring forward some men.
sure for its amendment.
CASE OF MR. BUTT.

The Duke of RICHMOND had a petition to present
from a person with whom he was unacquainted, of the
natne of Butt. This person had been convicted with
Lord Cochrane of having spread reports, before it oc-
curred, of the capture of the late Emperor of the French,
fur which, together with his Lordship, he had been
subjected to a severe pecuniary penalty. He prayed
that, as their Lord-hips had dealt leniently with Lord
Cochrane, they would do the sane with him, and return
him the 1,0001. in which he had been fined.—(L.iughter.)
As he did not intend to take any measures he would
simply lay it on the table.
WAIERWORKS CLAUSES BILL.
The report of this Bill was brought up.
MARKETS AND FAIRS CLAUSES BILL.

The report of this Bill was also brought up, with a few
amendments, and received.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
their Lordships adjourned.