The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-06 00:00:00

THE SUN,

land, to contribute your sham to their inainteeence from
the public revenue." No, we simply go to the next
parish, and if necessary to the parish beyond that, and
call upon them to make up the deficiency in the amount
raised for the support of the poor in the distressed
parish. At first sight there appears no gre at justice in
this course of proceeding. Why, on the more ground of
vicinage, should one neighbourhoed which supports its
°lva poor be called upon to support the poor of another
with:vvhich they have no concern? We might adopt the
same course in Ireland; but I fear that the result would
be only to extend the area of distress.— (Hear. hear.) I
therefore prefer a general rate in aid.—(Hear.) There
is another matter connected with the administration of
the poor-law which inclines me to call upon Ireland, at
the present time, to make a vigorous exertion. I want
to know upon what principle Ireland has refused to
repay us the advances which we made for union work-
houses in that country. We consented to advance
1,200,0004 for the erection of union workhouses in Ire-
land, and, at the same time, a certain sum was advanced
for the erection of similar buildings in England. The
advances made in this country have been met by the
Payment of 4 per cent. interest and by setting apart 2
Per cent. annually for the reduction of the capital of the
debt. I have not heard of any repudiations on the part
of England. I am not aware that the guardians of any
union in this country have declared that it is inconve
tient to repay the money they have borrowed, and that,
therefore, they will not do it. With deep regret I have
heard it urged in the course of these debates, as a reason
for not compelling the repayment of the money lent to
Ireland, that it could not be obtained without the risk of
rebellion.—(Hear, hear.) I believe that those who use
that argument do great injustice to the peen le of Ireland.
When this country has lent important aid to Ireland,
, ▪
cannot believe that any Irishman, least of all any
Member of this House, would seriously counsel
that the repayment of the money should be resisted. But
how are we to get the money back? We advanced
1,2000004 out of the Consolidated Fund to the Irish
unions, in the full conviction that it would be returned,
and the whole of the repayments amount to only 36,000/.
There is a manifest inclination in many of the unions to
repudiate the repayment. True, there are some hoceur-
able exceptions; the union of lsewtonazds, for iu-lance.
has paid all it borrowed; but the sum repaid by all the
unions amounts to only 36,0001., and I see with alarm
that the prosperous unions in the north make use of this
argument—" What have you collected from the south?
t' you have collected nothing, we in the north will not
pap."—(A laugh.) If Ireland would make a vigorous
effort to repay the sum advanced for the union work-
houses at once, instead of spreading it over 18 or 20
Sears, so that it may be applied in the way in which it is
Proposed to ;appropriate the sixpenny rate, I am
not sure that the House would not accept
the arrangement and forego the rate.—(Much
laughter.) Is not that laugh an argument
in ney favour? If the mere suggestion that the Irish
unions should pay a just debt is received with an incre-
dulous laugh, as if the proposal was manifestly absurd—
if you ridicule the notion that a debt which has actually
been paid by England should also be discharged by Ire-
land, I confess I am inclined to listen to the proposition
of a sixpenny rate for the support of the Irish poor
with much less unwillingness than I might otherwise do.
• (Hear.) I say again, that if the Irish Members will
guarantee the repayment of the 1,200,000/. in three
months I will vote against the proposition of the Govern-
lueent--(Cheers and laughter.) But if not I will vote
'or- its in the absence of any other practical suggestion
for relieving the urgent necessities hr the poor of Ire-
land- - I, however, wish to advert to a matter e! even
greater importance than the present difficulty,' arising
out of the present condition of Ireland. I am anxious
that the House should direct its attention to what may
oa
the condition of Ireland for the future.—(Loud
cheers.) Suppose the House should consent to impose a
rate upon the whole of Ireland, in order to obtain
the means of relieving it from its present difficulty, we
ahould not thereby be relieved from the obligation, in
Point of duty, of considering the future prospects of that
country.—(Hear, hear.) I have read with painful atten-
tion the papers which have been laid upon the table in
eflnnexion with this subject, and, taking the case of a
atngle union, which, after all, is a fir sample of the
others, I will state briefly the unquestionable facts pre-
„Booted by these papers, which have been given to us
,nom the highest official sources, and then cell upon the
goose to consider what are the prospects of Ireland after
present relief shall be extended to that country. The
union to which I propose referring is that of Ballina, and
fix upon it because it is that to which the latest papers
tier, and also because it stands separate from other
January,
Mr. Bourke reports, that on the 27th of
1849, there were in the Bettina Union 3,270
Persons occupying the workhouses, and 18,879 re-
c,e,iving out-door relief. Mr. Hamilton calculates that
e number of persons likely to require relief before
`"next harvest will probably amount to 27,000.
Including in and out relief; of this number 4,300
are able-bodied, and 14,000 dependents. The lamentable
alate of this union cannot fairly be imputed to the pro-
prietors. I ask those who think that the landlords have
not made exertions to meet the calamity to read these
Papers. The amount of rate and arrears in the Ballina
Union is 17,0004, and 12,000/. have been collected, as
the two officers whose names I have mentioned state,
with but little trouble, without the necessity for frequent
vlegal proceedings, and without assistance from military
(31* police. I have read the evidence of gentlemen con-
nected with the union, showing the exertions they have
!nada to meet the crisis, the number of persons they have
roued employment for, the reductions they have made in
their establishments, their willingness to do all in their
Power to mitigate the distress prevailing in the union,
and I think that credit is due to them for their con-
duct. The officers employed by the Government state
that the striking of another rate, under present circum-
stances, would extinguish the little hope which is still to
",e found in the union. One of these gentlemen says that
there are thousands of acres which were formerly oc-
cupied and cultivated which have now more the appear-
44,tlee of having been devastated by an enemy than any-
;uising else I can compare them to." We are infermed by
le game authority, that the " first failure of the potato
er?p brought to light the miserably rotten social state of
this part of Ireland."—(Hear, hear.) Every sentence is
Pregnant with alarm:—" The poorer classes are saving
Potatoes for seed, and would as soon part with their lives
ay consume them."—(Hear, hear.) " The landlords are
fin dread of the undefined prospect of rates, and are
e,ing as little as they possibly can." It is very doubt-
-111 whether the future success of the potato crop
would enable the landlords to pay fair wages fur fair
Work'' , " It the potatoes succeed, the principal effect
Will be to raise the price of land, to bring about the
oldee state of things notwithstanding the bitter experience
cthe last three years."—(llear, hear.) How melan-
;niy is the prospect here presented to us, and recollect,
is not attributable to the misfeazance of the landlords,
r they have made every effort in their power to alle-
s'a.te the distress. There are two points deserving of
Pious consideration arising out of the state of things
described in the papers to which I have been referring ;
fit, the danger of relying upon the potato for the
Inure sustenance of the people; and, secondly, the cir-
culllstance that a large quantity of land is going out of
Ultieation in the Ballina Union; thousands of acres, we
are told, appeee as if they had been devastated by an
-aulY• Whilst we are taking means to provide present
Qasistance to the distressed people, is it not incumbent
Lau us to consider what measures can be adopted for meet-
future calami?—(Hear, hear.) There are, per-
,,:139 no means by which such an abundant supply of
rtenance for the people can be obtained under existing
circumstancesb as by the cultivation of the potato; but
uathing could be more unwise than to rely permanently
1,130 n that root as a staple article of food after the expe-
tit,eaee of the last three years.—(Hear.) In addition to
e Potato, the inhabitants of the Ballina Union were for
fnie erlywell supplied with fish. The total number of men
2 r,9Tncrly registered as employed in the fisheries was
„ ee, and of boats 455; now the number of men so
;alPloyed is only 1,368; and of boats 224; and the boats
4114 gear are described as being in very bad condition.
n us we have concurrently a diminution of food and
abandonment of cultivation, together with the pros-
bhpect that, unless vigorous efforts he made to improve
th the moral and physical condition of the people,
e
y will continue to rely upon what experience
has shown to be a most deceitful article of food,
With the chance of a et currence of the cala-
Icily, which, for anything we know, may not bo casual,
out the result of some mysterious agency. It appears
to me that the state of the Ballina Union—and it is but
the type of the rest—suggests matter for grave consider-
a.,tion. There are 27,000 persons to be provide,] for until
re next harvest. It is not without hesitation I venture
;41 offer any suggestion for diminishing the danger which
see in perspective; but I will commuuicate to the house
which I see a hope of safety is the introduction of new
proprietors who shall take possession of land in Ireland
reed from its present incumbranees, and enter upon its
cultivation with new feelings, and inspired by new hopes.
(Cheers.) I wish for no violation of the rights of
iirnPerty.—(Hear, hear.) Nothing can be more easy
thao to suggest remedies, if we choose to disregard
a rights of property, which it is the first duty of
tißritish Legislature to uphold. But, at the same
much property in Ireland is, in point of fact,
th* of little value to the proprietors on account of
e encumbrances upon it, and I cannot help thinking
es Veit is possible for the Government, with the sanction
'"e
someoy taking an enlarged view of the subject,
to d_ •
tree"yrse means by which new capital may be in-
th"aUced into the cultivation of the land in Ireland and
auedelieting proprietors rescued from the disappointment
rah (lespair in which they are involved. Suppose you
land a million in Ireland by the rate in aid—that Eng-
e Contributes another million—how do you mean to
m
Y the money to rescue Ireland from her difficulties?
3..°u Mean to let things go on in the present course?
reeyou
Mean to rely on the potato? Will you again
you `aa risk of doing so? Before doing so, is it lot
Btu: duty to consider every means by which a better
Vert of things may be introduced into Ireland? I re-
not etc' a riod when a state of things existed in Ireland
all'helY different from that which now exists there,—
t"" to the reign of James 1., when the settle-
la 1:.; eef Ulster took place. At that time a
°fry; iclaantity of land was forfeited in six counties
raie-hapland, but not to large a quantity as, I believe,
rari-e,'" nos be obtained in the west of Ireland by an ar-
of il;tnent with the proprietors—an arrangement devoid
lattestice, to which no objection would be made. The
ement.t°rfeited after the rebellion of Tyrone, in the
ttiad Ales of Donegal, Tyrone, Derry, Fermanagh, Cavan,
tieti-:lroegh, amounted to 500030 acres. The transac-
telt is described in nearly the same manner by all con-
be fPoararY historians, but I think the best account is to
says, "4that in Carte's " Life of Ormonde." That author
,r,
and Were
e counties bad suffered exceedingly in the war,
Nint ere reduced to a very desolate condition. The
l'ourariX WaS full of woods and fastnesses, which, on fa-
and junctures, would give encouragement to rebels,
a
71ftettjgr;e04;erthbey
tuali;• all times serve as a retreat to robbers. Great
infahmabiniteants had perished by the sword—
; the rest were reduced to so ex.

treme a poverty that they were nut able, if willing, to
manure the ground ; so that the lands laid waste in time
of war were likely to continue so in time of peace."
This description, exc, pting that part which refers to
woods and fi)rees, affording :hater to robbers, is very
applicable to the state of Connaught, and runny psrts of
the west of Ireland. Sir Ar,bur Chichester was the.
Lord-Deputy at the period in question. lie caused sur-
vey-3 to be taken, and it was decided that the lands to
be transplanted should be divided into three proportions
of 2,000, 1,500, and 1,000 English acres, and these es-
cheated lands were disposed of to 104 English and Scotch,
56 servitors, and 286 natives, all of whom gave bond to
the Government for the performance of covenants. The
Lord-Deputy caused a parochial church to be erected,
and a glebe set out according to the size of the parish
for each incumbent. The plantation was extended to
Leinster. Groat injustice was done to individuals by
this proceeding; but, says Carte—

" The grievances of particular persons did not pre-
vent the general good intended to the kingdom by these
plantations. In cons, quence of which lands were cul-
tivated a►nd greatly improved, te.,was and vill.tg,s built,
trade and commerce carried on and extended. The
people i❑ general, weaned gradually from their former
idle and disorderly life, began to learn and practice civi-
lity, to apply themselves to business, to use labour and
industry in their several stations, and to relish the s Atets
of peace."
__ _

If it be possible to make any new settlement similar to
that of Ulster, my earnest advice, which I am sure
will be in unison with the universal feelings of the
House, is, that no religious distinctions should, be al-
lowed to enter into the arrangement.—(Cheers.) It
may, perhaps, be impossible to apply the principle of
the arrangement to the extent to which it was carried
in James the First's time, but unless it be applied to
some degree there is no hope of the future improvement
of Ireland. It, after raising a rate in aid, you leave
matters exactly as you found them—if you rely ex-
clusively on grants of public money, there is no hope of
permanent escape from the calamity which afflicts us;
but if, without violating the rights of property, you
place the land in possession of new proprietors without
distinction of religious profession, you will lay the foun-
dation of the future prosperity of Ireland.—(Hear,
hear.) An Act was passed last session to give facilities
to the acquisition of property in Ireland, but I fear
that in consequence of the alterations introduced
into the measure in the Lords, its object of intro-
ducing new proprietors into Ireland will be defeated.
I offer any suggestion with the utmost hesitation. I have
no party motive whatever in this question.—(Hear.) I
make every allowance for the situation in which the Go-
vernment is placed, by the failure for the last four or
five years of the crop upon which the people relied, but
I feel this most strongly, that if we are content to vote
money, or give a rate in aid extending over the whole
of Ireland, or to trust to the potato, and to the present
distribution of property, finding property so encumbered
and in so hopeless a condition, that thousands of acres
are thrown out of cultivation, with no prospect of being
cultivated, then at the expiration of the two years for
which this rate is to be granted the state of Ireland will
be no better than it is now.—(Hear, hear.) I very much
fear that if ou rely merely on individual purchases you
will make no great advance. It appears to me it might
be prudent to appoint some commission for the purpose of
considering the whole subject, and the possibility, by
their advice and intervention, of effecting the change in
property which I believe to be indepensable to any great
improvement of that country. If you choose to
leave the present proprietors. iii possessipn of their pro-
perty, hardly receiving a norithirsi rent,' encumbered with
debt, with every discouragement to exertion, and so
overwhelmed with rates that it is impossible to find a
purchaser or occupant, then I see no hope for the salva-
tion of Ireland. But if, through the Government or Par-
liament, you can establish some intermediate agent to
get possession of that property on equitable terms, and
then can arrange for the re-distribution of it, I should
see some hope of her salvation.—(Hear, hear.) If you
do nothing of the kind, what will be our condition? I
have given you an account of the Ballina Union. I see
no better hope for others. If reliance is to be placed on
the potato, and you have a good crop, there may be a
better state of things, but each union is acting inde-
pendently; and, unless some great attempt is made to
rescue Ireland from the grievous calamity impending,—
unless you can, by some means consistent with justice
and equity, introduce new capital, new views of im-
provement, new feelings, into that country, in place of
the despair and poverty which now overwhelm it, I
see no hope of her future regeneration.—(Hear, hear.)
I would do injustice to no man, but I would try the
intervention of a competent authority, acting with the
sanction of the Government, and with the Government,
to take a comprehensive view of the condition of the
whole of these unions, and to attempt to suggest means
by which there should be that transfer of landed pro-
perty which I believe to be the root of improvement in
Ireland.—(Hear) Despair is overwhelming the pro_
prietors.—(Hear, hear.) The sixpenny rate is merely
to administer relief to some of the unions. I object to a
pecuniary burden which would discourage either the
occupant or the purchaser. You see what was done in
Ireland in the reign of James I. with 500,000 acres in
Ulster, the refuge of robbers and assassins—the division
of property, the allotment into districts of 2,000, 1,500,
and 1,000 acres. Unless you can give some guarantee
as to the poor-rate you will have no purchaser. I
earnestly advise you, then, to consider whether you
cannot, by the intervention of some such com-
mission as that I have mentioned, facilitate the ar-
rangements
for the transfer of property. I have read
the rules of the Court of Chancery—l dare say
they may be very proper, but every one would say, "If
you can give me only a nominal guarantee of 10 per
cent. for my outlay I will go any where else."—(Hear,
hear.) Cannot you assist by the intervention of a corn •
mission composed of men of the highest character?
Surely you could find men who would gratuitously
devote their time to rescue Ireland from this state—who
would be the medium between the proprietor and the
purchaser? The condition of 20 of these unions is so
wretched, that you find yourselves either unable to trust
the local guardians, or that they are throwing up their
appointments and you are trusting to vice-guardians to
administer the poor-law in those districts. Would it
not be possible, by the intervention of some such com-
mission as that I have spoken of, to assist in solving
the legal difficulties, to consider what arrangements
should be made for the transfer of property, to suggest
the mode in which it could be effected, giving hereafter a
title that should not be liable to question, seeking the
aid of Parliament for that purpose, confirming the
title in some shape or other—limiting the amount of
charge on account of the poor -rates to which those lands
should be subject, giving a guarantee, as far as you can,
against any violation of property, and also against legal
disturbance on account of flaws in the tide?—(Hear,
hear.) I, for one, should see with great satisfaction the
Government interposing with the intention of re-distri-
buting that great estate which is on sale in Connemara
—I mean the estate of Mr. Martin.—(Hear, hear.) What
do I see now? lam obliged to support 2,500 able-
bodied men, and that will continue for some time. Sup-
pose I could make any amicable arrangement for facil-
rating the transfer of the property. Here, then, is fertile
land going out of cultivation because the charge upon
it is su heavy that no person, as tenant or occupant,
will cultivate it. What is the prospect then? The
people are clinging to the potatoe, and, that failing them
there is but the unsatisfactory remedy which the Noble
Lord offered, of an incursion of paupers into Scotland
or England. But depend upon it that you' will have
the able-bodird men coming to interfere with the
able-bodied labourers of this country, while all
the women and children will be left on the land,
demanding relief from the poor-rates.—(Hear, hear.)
I think it improbable that any person will purchase that
property without the intervention of a third party—
with the uncertainty of the poor-rate, who would have
anything to say to it ?—(Hear, hear.) What is the use
of continuing it in the family? I have not the slightest
doubt that the present proprietors, whoever they are,
would be willing to do what they could for its improve-
ment, but to have those 2.500 men transferred to some
other proprietor, who would do nothing for the future
improvement of the property, would be a great evil. But
suppose I had an intelligent commissioner by whose in-
tervention that property might pass into the hands of
proprietors who would employ those men in the im-
provement of the estate—and I believe that in the dis-
trict of Connemara there are valleys as fertile as in any
other part of Ireland—if, I say, I could appoint an
intelligent and able commissioner who, for a time,
would take possession of that property—who would open
means of cemulunication—who would, if you please,
divide it, giving security for ten or fourteen years to
come that the amount of poor-rates should not be ex-
ceeded, and calling into action the labour of those men,
then I am laying the foundation of future prosperity, in-
troducing new men into the country, and avoiding that
which, I think, was a fatal defect in the Act of James 1.,
namely. the establishment of a religious distinction.—
(Hear, hear.) I would give to all persons equal advan-
tages, and would not make any attempt to remove them
from the soil on account of their religious views. Ia that
way I would infuse new blood into Ireland, new enter-
prise, and a new division of property ; and I would give
a stimulus to industry by guar tnteeing the future pro-
prietor against being sunk and overwhelmed by the
amount of the poor-rates. I see no other mode than
some measure of that kind that could be adopted to mi-
tigate the present evil. I greatly doubt whether, under
the Bill of last session, any amount of property has been
sold. I greatly doubt whether you must not have some
intermediate authority between the present proprietors
and the new purchasers. It was a curious thing, that
when James I. determined upon the settlement of
Ulster, he asked the opinion of the highest authority.
He went to Lord Bacon for his opinion, and though he
knew nothing about Ireland, the treatise he wrote, on
account of his prophetic sagacity, is worth the conside-
ration even of the present more enlightened men.—
(Hear, hear.) At that time there were 500,000 acres
of land out of cultivation ; and now, if you delay ap•
plying a remedy, you will have a greater extent of land
to deal with in the west of Ireland. The evil will go on
increasing ; the population is not diminishing, but the
fisheries are exhausted ; hope is paralyzed ; the people,
instead of fishing, are perhaps relying upon the expecta-
tion of getting assistance of an eleemosynary character.
Take care, then, that charitable aid does not paralyze all
exertion.—(Hear.) The more you habituate the people
to rely upon public grants the more you are destroying
the sense of independence, and diminishing the amount
of effort which ought to be made by the people.—
(Hear, hear.) Now Lord Bacon, without having any
local knowledge of Ireland, consul'ed with James I.
as to the best mode of treating the subject.
The treatise which he wrote upon the subject is well
worth reading even at the present time. There are many
most excellent and extravagant and misapp'ied compli-
ments to the ability and talent of James I.—(Laughter)
—and some most ridiculous proposals; but still there are
some good things in the book, and well worthy of atten-
tion. It is entitled "Lord Bacon upon the Plantations
of Ireland." He says—and really one would almost
think ho was writing for the present time,—" Of all
things a commission is most necessary, both to direct