The Sun.
London, England, 1812-03-07 00:00:00

MUTINY BILL.

On a motion for the House resolving itself into a
Committee on the Mutiny Bill,
Mr. WHITBREAD wished the Committee to be
postponed to an early day. This he wished, as he
understood-the Noble Lord had some new clauses
to propose, in addition to which he (Mr. Whit-
bread) had one to suggest ; and besides notice had
been given of one by an Hon. Baronet (Sir F. Bur-
dett). He wished it postponed, as Irons these cir-
cumstances it must take up some time, and the Irish
business which stood for this day might in conse-
quence be driven off.
Sir J. NEWPORT, on similar grounds, wished the
Committee to be postponed.
Lord Palmerston and the Chancellor of the Ex-

chequer replied ; and the result was understood to
be, that the Committee should be gone, into, but that
the clauses on which discussion might be expetted
should be postponed.
The House then resolved itself into a Commitee.
Mr. WHITBREAD wished to propose a clause,
which however he hoped the Han. Gentleman op-
posite would frame, as he would do it much better
than he could. Schools had been established in the
Army, in order to qualify the soldiers for Non-corn-
- miasioned Officers. He had understood the Officer
could order the men to, attend such schools, but a
learned Judge had declared, that such order was il-
legal, and that consequently a soldier refusing to obey
such command, and advising another not to obey,
was guilty of no offence. An anion was pending
against him, (Mr. Whitbread) for imprisoning a
man under such circumstances, which was to.have
heen.broeght on that day, but which had been post-
poned, alter having been kept hanging over hien a
y,v2r an a half, et- a'very considerable expeoce.—
Now, when a provision was made in the Army Es-
timates for maintaining such schools, and Officers,
were direißed to send the men under their com-
mand to them, he thought they ought to be em-
powered to force their attendance. He begged to
read what had been said by the learned Judge. His
words were—" That the order to go to school was
an order which appeared to him not to be warrant-
ed by any law. The men were unwise in not avail-
ing themselves of such opportunities for improve-
ment, but lie knew of no law that could force them
to attend." Thus, it should appear, that one man
saying to another, " I will not obey the order to
go to school, 'wed 1 advise you not to obey it," was
no offence. The order was, in the opinion of the
Judge, illegal, therefore the man bad- a right to give
such advice; hence it followed that soldiers were
justified in encouraging one another not to obey
their Officers. Orders had been some time ago is-
sued by the Duke of York, direeling the officers to
send their men to school. In consequence of this,
if an Officer fade. to give orders to that effea, he
might be brought to a Court-martial ; and it he
forced them to attend, he might, in consequence;
b© brought to trial. A sort of mutiny was thus en-
couraged, and the whole dhcipline of the army was
broken in upon.
Lord PALM ERSTONE observed, the subject was
entitled to serious consideration; but to attend the
schools had not be considered as any part of military
duty. Schools had certainly been established, and
a provision made for maintaining them in the Army
Estimates. This was done, that those wishing to
-avail themselves of such an adVantage might do so,
but still toat tend or not to attend had been left wholly
optional to the parties. In almost every instance,
where an individual was qualified to hold the situa-
tion-of a Non-co;nmissioned Officer, he would be
happy to avetlehimself of the advantage held out 'to
him by these schools, and therefore it was as well to
leave it optional for him to attend.
Mr. FRANKLAND was of opinion, that however
advantageous it might be to the men to attend, they
ought not to be forced to go to school.
Mr. WHITBREAD, before the agitation of the
-question this day, had never heard the legality of
an officer ordering his men to attend, doubted by
any lawyer or officer with whom he had conversed.
The Noble Lord gave it up in a legal point of view
altogether, but lie believed he weuld not find' an
officer who was not of opinion that he ought to have
power to punish disobedience to so .11 an order as
well as disobedience to any other. Had he known
that it was to be left optional to the soldier to
attend the schools established,- he should have
paused betore he consented to the vote proposed for
theri support.
Mr. M. SUTTON admitted that if it was ordered at
the Horse Guards that the men should be sent
to school, that order ought to be obeyed as much
as any ether, end disobedience punished according-
ly. It was how.evet necessary to introduce a clause
in the Mutiny Bill on the subjed, as when suet)" an
order was issued, disobedience could be punished
under the act as it at present stood, without adding
to it the clause proposed.
Mr. WHITBREAD said, the order from the Horse-
Guards direaed the establishing of schools; and an
Officer was placed in a disagreeable situation, if,
when be dire fed the men to attend such schools,
'hi might refuse to do so.
Colonel Dteeote remarked, that men did not
_ •- . 2nd thought it vt•Quid in.

jure the reuniting service if an idea went abroad
that they were to be forced to ettend.
The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHECITYER stated it
not to have .been the inten, ion of the Duke of York
to make 9Se attendance of the men compulsory,
though much advantage was eti,eded from the es-
tablishment of schools ire the army.
• Gen. TARLETrN thought the subject entited to
serious consideration.

Mr. WHITBREAD said the aclion commenced
/gainst him was not for confining a man who had
disobeyed his order to go to school, but it was for
putting under imprisonment one who had incited
others to disobey his orders.

Mr. BROUGHAM wished to know if it was the in-
tention to introduce any clause to do- away military
.flogging
Lord PALMERSTONE said it was not; but that the
regulation of-last Session, leaving the option of impri-
ionment to Courts Martial, would be rendered more
general.
Mr. BROUGHAM. said; as he could not be present
at any other stage, of the-Bill, he -would avail him-
self of the present opportunity to enter his protest
against that species of punishment.
,One of the
ends of punishment was the improvement of the
culprit, but the evidence of the best'aut horities jus-
tified him in stating, that flogging could only debase
andruin the character' of 'a soldier. - As to example,
that.benefit was also lost by its exciting a sympathy
in -favour of the sufferer. All the arguments against
torture apphed with tenfold force against this me-
thod of punishing ,4oldiers, and therefore he was
most anxious that some amendment might be pro-
posed, which would go farther than was intended
.by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. He pre-
sumed there was .no clause limiting the power of
,the Crown with regard to the employment of Fo-
reigners in our Army, and lamentetl that the Aet
of Settlement 'was not more strhlly adhered to in
that respect. It was well known, that his Royal
Highness's Regiment, the loth Light Dragoons,
were in a course to be changed into- a German re-
giment. Having deprecated in strong terms the
system of recruiting regiments from the Hulks, he
concluded with expressing a hope that some im-
provements would be made on the different heads to
which he had alluded.

Mr. M. SUTTON assured his Hon. Friend, that
he was greatly deceived in the exaggerated state-
ments be had brought forward. As to the corporal
punishirients, it was not the intention to prevent
them, from a convidion that they could not be dis-
pensed with. It appeared in' the debates of last
year, that there 'was no prediledion towards corpo-
ral punishments; but an experiment was made, by
permitting imprisonment to be substituted ; and he
was happy to be able to state, that fromJanuaryto
December, 1 8 1 1, only eight persons were sentenced
to. corporal
~punishments by Genentl Courts Mar-
tial, and on one alone was that punishment aflided,
not however without first making an offer to the
individual to commute the punishment for general
service. Such was the torture complained of by the
Hon. Gentleman, that the individual submitted to
receive 700 lashes rather than make the exchange.
But he wished to know from the Gentlemen who
opposed this species of punishment, whether any
substitution was intended ? If-none was intended,
many must escape with impunity; and if death was
to be subSituted, it would make our military a most
sanguinary code. As to imprisonment, it could not
be inflicted on foreign service. Improvements
should be made, but tte general abolition was im-
predicable. He regretted to hear those attacks
made day after day, upon a system, without which
the discipline of the army could not be maintained.
Though the power of imprisonment had been most
useful, he doubted much whether it would have
b en so to the same extent, if the prisoners knew
before hand that they could only be imprisoned.
Colonel DOCKET said he was 17 years in the
home service, and bad found the opinions of all the
Colonels with whom he had-conversed in that time,
concurring in the necessity of corporal punishments.
Mr. DILLON approved of the clause of the list
Session, and thought that colonial service might in
some instances be resorted to as a punishment. He
thought that in a few years the instances of corporal
punishment would be solitary, and should in a short
time propose a motion on the sublet/. _

. .
Mr. BROUGHAM said he had not objeaed to.the
severity, but to the improper mode 01 severity.—
As to the lamentation of his Hon.. Friend (Mr. M.
Sutton) that the subje& should be so often renewed,
he would console him by referring him to hiS own
statement, that there were only eight
.persotis sen-
tenced to that punishment in t be course of the last 12
mouths. The discdsSion 'on this subjea had begun
out of doors, and he could not help regretting, that
those persons who 'commenced it, he meant Mr.
Cobbett and Mr. Drakard, should now be in prison.
_ _ _ _

Mr. MANNE:I3SUTTON thought it-rather hard th,it
his Hon. Frtend•should ascribe the improvements .to
Mr. Cobbett and Mr. .Drakard. Much was owing
to the Courts themselves, who had as good wishes•
for the army, and as little intention to mislead the
public, as either of the two Gentlemen alluded to.

_
SIT G. WARRENDER was sure the amendment was
owing to the Courts, and not to Mr. Cobbett or
Mr. Drakard.

Lord PA LME RSTONE rejoiced that the Hon. Gen-
tleman opposite had avowed what he wished to sub-
stitute for corporal punishments : his substitute was
death, which would go to make cur military a most
sanguinary code. The Hon. Gentleman had said
that punishment was intended for the amendment
of individuals, but it was. also intended to prevent
crimes, many of which required the most summary
punishment. If they were to send offenders to the
colonies, they must provide for their punishment
there. As to what had ben said respetting the
Gth Light Dragoons, it waz totally unfounded.
General TAHLETort defended the necessity of cor-
poral punishments.
Sir Jon N NEWPORT. stated, that the laws on this
subjet now in force, patticutarly in Ireland, re-
quired some amendment or explanation. In Ire.
land, the officers who had the distribution of billets,
were in the habit of sending an undue proportion of
soldiers to the houses of Quakers, who, from the
tenets of their religion, were patticularly averse to
military men, and were therefore compelled to pay
any money to get rid of them, rather than have them
in their houses. This was a serious evil, which he
believed to be-carried on in collusion with the po-
verument, because, in the city of Waterford, which
he had the honour to represent, the officers so treat-
W every Quaker who voted for him at Isis election.

L 0 IV D 0 1V ,

SATURDAY, MARCH 7, 1812.

Dispatches, dated the 12th' ult. were this morning
received from Lord WELLINGTON. No event of
any importance had taken place, up to that time.

This morning we received Lisbon Papers, from
which we have made some extrads, but they are

very unimportant.

, We this morning received American Papers, from
which the following are extracts :--
" WASH/NQTONo FEB. 2,--The war is nearly

over. The tax scheme lies dormant. An adjourn.
ment of Congress is talked of till May, but I doubt
whether succeed.

" NEW YoRK, FEB. 6.--,ADJOURNMENT OF CON-
GREss..—II is rumoured at Washington, that Con-
gress is about to adjourn to meet again the last of
May. This, we suppoSe, is a plan of the friends of
Mr. MADISON to secure his re-eleaion to the
Presidency.- The administration men are at pre.
sent, in such a situation, that they cannot move
without injuring Mr, MADISON'S popularity : let
them go forward or backward, it .is all the same,
Mr. MADISON. suffer. Now if they can .con.
trive to stand stock still for a short time, they
may probably get Mr. MADISON norninwed to
hold his seat for the next Presidential term, which
according to the; new republican doarine is equiva-
lent to an elee.',lion. This done, Congress mil rotor,
and proceed to: carry on the war they have -com-
menced, or make "peace for want of resources, as
they rnly think prOper. The office-holders being
made easy, what the people may say or do will not
•
be regarded."

" FEB. B.—The Berlin and Milan Decrees cre
revoked!—This has been so often. asserted by the
PRESIDENT of the United States—by the Governors
of each State—by Members of Congress, and by
every friend' to the administration throughout the
Union, that it has acttiilly 'become a painful task
to multiply evidence proving the falsehood of tho
assertion. But it is our duty; -and, however dis-
agreeable, we must perform It. We proceed, there-
fore, to produce another fa6t, which shews that the
Decrees in question are in full force, and were
abed upon by the constituted authorities of-Fratwe
as late as the 10th of September last. It is an offi-
cial account of the condemnation of the brig Julian
of Philadelphia,' EDMUND ABBOT, Master. This
vessel was avowedly condemned under the Berlin
and Milan Decrees: the Council having declared,
that on 'account of her " being loaded with col -
nial merctiand:ze, having touched at Gottenburgh,
and having been visited by divers English vessels of
war, she is good and lawful prize.".

One of the Opposition PaperS which has been
•
most virulent in ItS abuse of the PRINCE REGENT,
has thought it necessary to enter into some justifi-
tation, or rather some palliation of its conduCt:
We are always willing to do justice to an opponent,
and are therefore fully disposed to give the Pa-
per in question credit for its candour upon this
occasion. We really flattered ourselves, sayi the
Paper in question, that the moment his Royal
Highness the PRINCE REGENT was set, at litcr-
ty from the restritlions, he would have chosen
our friends (that is, the Party) for his Ministers ; as
tong as we entertained that opinion, so Jong" he.
could " command our humble praise and our re.
speelful obedience ;" but, when, to our inconceiv-
able amazement, and our inexpressible discomfiture,

we found that the • REGENT •thought proper to
choose other Ministers, it was too much to
expeEt that we should , continue the praises
we formerly bestowed upon him. In , reply
to this defence, we 'shall only say, that it they
had been satisfied with merely discontinuing
their praises, nay, if they had vented their
complaints in decent terms, we should not have
thought it necessary to reprehend them; but when,
in. the course of one week, one little werk, they
turned round upon their Prince, their Friend,--wheel
they assailed him with every species of abuse, we did
feel it to be our duty to point out their conduit
the indignation of the public. There is one sen-
tence. in the paragraph to which we are alluding,
which we wish particularly to notice.
" Now that the PRINCE is inveved with the full
hitins! o,
title pr-ae.cedtsoing Governments havef his Government
authority
judged of a a .s,to
been. We wish not to pry into the recesses of his
private life : while the prediledions in which he still
indulges interfere not with the Government of the
State, we shall ne‘er allude to them. It is not our
pra6tice to contaminate our pages with scandal, or to
by indecent topics
We have quoted this- pare-
aotft
animadversion."atte ntion to our columns
para-
graph, because we lin.e seen already some strong
symptotris of a disposition, to depart from the
profession. contained in it. We trust, however,
that for the "Tuture, the Editor will adhere to
the resolution which he 114 s distindi.,
ed. If he does, he will be under the necessity
of
c .i,eBcdas n of
excite iris
i Roy
no .
al l ght
rejecting many of the contributions, both itt prose
and verse, which will be :urnished by some of the
otherg
p
iriamtiejr
Ne;ee
e
abuse,
ful sensation in the' breast' of that Illustrious Pa,
so:loge,
.except that which may arise frotn-the. re-
conedipa that he had permitted such men to' as-
sume such a title.

Yesterday, at two o'clock, a full Cabinet Courcil
wa; held at the Foreign \ Office, ,which sat fill a
quarter past four, wi.ea, we understand, it was En-
ally settled that Lord MELVILLE is to be First Le rot
of the Admiralty.
Yesterday ItIC Duke of YORK, Mr. PERCEVAL,
and the-Earl-of DARTMOUTH, had audiences of the
PRINCE REGENT, at Carlton House.
It is stated that the Marquis of HERTFORD has
appointed Colonel Say noun to be Serjeant at Arms.
Yesterday Mr. THONIAi SYDENHAM had a long
interview with Lord CASTLEREAGH, at his Lord-
ship's house in St. James's-square.
The E.ifi 01 LIMERICK. has been mentioned as
one of ti;t.: personages IQ aucceal to a Meant
ittbb9n.