The Sun.
London, England, 1847-07-03 00:00:00

for not giving his assent to this Bill, and upon these 1
grounds he felt it his duty to give his vote against it.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that he felt ne-
cessary to trouble their Lordships for some few moments
in answer to the Noble Lord who had last spoken. He
was very happy to say that, although there were few of the
acts of the Poor-law Commissioners which were open to
objection, yet their justification was of necessity given
by a tedious and circuitous route, and lost with the
public very much of the effect which the immediate and
prompt vindication of their conduct would have,and which
could be given, by one of their body publicly in Parini-
anent. A great deal of the objection which had been raised
-to the Poor-law Commissioners bad been raised in con-
-sequerace of their proceeding, as it were, secretly and in
the dark; and this provision would at once remove that
iunfailing cause of disturbance and clamour. His Noble
7riend had stated many difficulties as likely to arise
from the connexion of this officer with the Government
1
There were other officers connected with the Govetn-
went whose situations were quite as open to the attacks
and strategems of the opposition for party purses as
even this one could be, and he (the Marquis Lans-
downe) saw no reason why the gentlanan who
filled this office should be particularly selected ",
a-
the object of this sort of interference any
more than those gentlemen who now hp',d officio; situ
tions in connexion with the, Gover liment. ge would
also say, to the honour of the crll*.ry, that none of those
gentlemen had, except, in rare 'lnstances, been made the
object of any annoy',ince to 0-.. e Government by unfounded
charges; but, OP. the emitrary, any interference which
had 'taken place, was only with the view of obtaining
AP sw ens to fair and legitimate questions. The Secre-
4,ary of Ste.te for the Home Department was an officer
who was quite as likely to be math) the subject of these
unfounded charges, for in his hands was the power of
life and death; he had the power of deciding whether
the criminal should suffer the last extremity of the law,
and to him the relations and friends frequently came to
intercede, and he issued his fiat unchecked or uncon-
trolled, for execution or otherwise; and yet be had never
heard any instance in which any attempt at getting up
charges for party purposes had been made. What had
fallen from his Noble and Learned Friend did not re-
quire any further answer from him, and he hoped that
their Lordships would go into Committee without feel-
ing that this Bill was likely to create those evils which
his Noble and Learned Friend bad described.

After a few words in explanation from Lord
BROUGHAM.

Lord STANLEY said that he entirely concurred in
the statement which had been made by his Noble and
Learned Friend near him. That the appointment of
this officer in connexion with the Government should
create some risk of undue interference with these laws
for party purposes, but he did think that it would also be
a check upon any undue administration of the law by the
commissioners, by the appointment of on officer with a
Parliamentary responsibility. He thought that if that
officer had been appointed in connexion with the Minis-
try before the present time, many misrepresentations
which had gained credence and gone abroad, would have
been contradicted and satisfactorily denied. He thought,
however, that the Parliamentary responsibility men-
tioned by the Noble Marquis would rest as much upon
the Government generally as upon the officer appointed,
and thus a connexion would be formed which would
render it the interest of that officer to countenance and
support the interference of the Government in these laws
whatever it might be. Upon the whole, however re-
luctantly and doubtfully, he leaned towards the opinion
that it was desirable to connect this officer with the Go-
vernment—for then much of that misrepresentation, and
unfounded persecution, lately sustained by the Poor-law
Commissioners would either be at once sustained and
proved, or publicly and promptly denied. He thought
that, under all the circumstances, the connexion of this
commissioner with the Government was advisable, and,
therefore, without going into any other principle of the
Bill at that time, he should give it his support.
Lord COLCHESTER very much feared that this plan
would not secure to her Majesty's Ministers that secu-
rity from unfounded imputations which he (Lord Col-
chester) thought was one of the objects of this Bill ; for,
inasmuch as this commissioner was to be connected with
the Governrneqt, any charge brought against him must
be brought against them all. Though he only would
attempt to refute or deny any of these accusations. He
did not dissent from the principle of the measure, but he
certainly thought it capable of very material improve-
ment.

Earl ST. GERMANS said that his Noble Friend
had takeii off the half-and-half responsibility which was
at present incurred by her Majesty's Government, par-
ticularly the Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment—with respect to the administration of the poor•
laws—in common with the Poor-law Commissioners.
That objection would still exist, even though one of
these commissioners were to have a seat in Parliament,
unless the whcle of the Board of Commissioners was
re-constructed by the Government, before taking that
step.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE then rose, and ad •
dressed the House briefly, but his observations were quite
inaudible in the gallery.
. .

The House then resolved itself into Committee upon
the Bill.

On clause 1 being proposed,

Lord ELLENI36IiOfTGH moved that the words—
First Lord of the Treasury—be inserted in the list of
commissioners to be appointed.

Earl GREY said that he nil not think that the inser-
tion of these words would do any harm, neither would
they be of the slightest use ; he did not think that any
single beneficial object would be answered by the inser-
tion of these words.

Clauses 1 to 9 were then agreed to.
On clause 10 being proposed,
Lord REDESDALE moved the omission of this
clause—it threw a large amount of patronage into the
hands of the Government, at the most dangerous time
it could be done, namely, on the eve of a general
election.
-tes..t- some desultory ine tiouse divided,
when there appeared-7-
For the amendment—Contents
Non contents
Majority for Non-contents
The Duke of RICHMOND then moved a clause to
the effect—that if the board of guardians, after a period
of three months, did not appoint a visiting committee,
and that visiting committee did not perform its duty by
visiting the workhouses to take care that the poor were
not ill-treated by those placed over them. It should be
imperative on the Poor•law Commissioners to appoint a
visitor, and that visitor to be paid out of the rates of
that union. This clause was, in his opinion, absolutely
necessary for the protection of the poor who were re-
ceiving relief in the workhouses, and for the purpose of
compelling the board of guardians to perform their duties.
After a brief discussion, the clause was withdrawn.
The remaining clauses of the Bill were then agreed to.
The House then resumed, aria the Bill was reported to
the House, with amendments.

The other orders of the day were then disposed of,
and their Lordships adjourned until Four o'clock to-
morrow.

ROUSE OF COMMONS, July 2.
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)

NAVIGATION-LAWS.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL then moved that the Navi-
gation-laws Bill be read a second time.
Lord GEORGE BENTINCK rose to oppose the
motion. He did so because he thought the present mea-
sure was a pretext to undermine the present navigation-
laws. Since the suspension of those laws, innumerable
vessels, in all parts of the world, had been waiting for
freight and could not get it. There had not been more
than one or two ships from the Mediterranean since the
suspension of the laws, and at present .rates were every
day falling at Alexandria, Constantinople, and Odessa.
He therefore contended that the necessity for the further
suspension of the navigation-laws had entirely passed
away. With regard to the small vessels from the Elbe
and the Weser, which formed so large an item in the re-
turn of the number of foreign grain-laden vessels, which
had been laid on the table, the further suspension of the
laws from September to March would be wholly inope-
rative.—(Hear, hear.) If the Noble Lord had been so
desirous as it was stated to bring in a large supply of
foreign corn cheaply, he might have spared the five
steam-ships that were cruising off Portugal for that pur-
' pase, and by this means he would have done far more
good than by suspending the navigation-laws.—(Hear,
hear.) This was the course pursued by France, and it
was productive of the greatest advantage to the trade
and commerce of that country. If this suspension of
the navigation-latvs was to be considered as preliminary
to the abrogation of these laws, he would ask the Noble
Lord how he proposed to man the navy ?—(Hear, hear.)
America had attained the great eminence which at pre-
: sent characterised the navy, not, as it was falsely
; stated, by relaxing the navigation-laws, but by giving
her shipping the greatest protection. In 1814 the
British navy was manned by 114,000 men, and now the
number was not more than 30,000. It might be said
that when the corn-laws were repealed the navigation-
:laws must share the same fate. He did not see the con-
:nexion which existed between them, or that the one
followed as a necessary consequence of the other. It
'gave him great pain to see some shipowners supporting
the abolition of the corn-laws at the time that measure
was brought forward, and he sincerely hoped that they
;should not have occasion to regret the part which they
inotfetrheestn.—(umHbeeraor,r
grain-
laden
that came to this country from the United
'lielad ekhna against
aai
pi ns
st
comparativethe
statement.
thereotirotsheowthsee:te
;States of America, from the lOth of September last to
iltGhreealtst2,orfitM. andT4hseoretwowere 2u9n4i
tevdesssetlastebs.elonogfintghestoe
their voywhile there were 21 American; of 'anY accidentformtebracwkhiacnhdhaddismcoenttwiniuthe
a weree
ionsina ll
tit ysea,3obliged o.
ft
h tt2o
!thrown overboa were obliged to ,.. Arne_
there were xican; and of throds there were 6 British and -I
ere were 3 put
haavned
tlh7eircarg American;oe
s
and cheers.) This Llvreh
14 British, while
the shipping
skillve ot
hr
ee energy; ;
pilot had not lost his cut-oiught"
of destroying proved that the British
rheadl2bAeelanersictraann._de(ddchaerriehweearre,
a believing
this country, and of undermining their naval superiority,
that this measure would
nor the British sailor his
'l.cf"w?uld move that the
months.
which, more than any other
their greatness and their power,
Bill
Lordb e readj.
Raussesc second
ra time
said,
h that
ddoay:
rider—and I hope that this House will not to
°on"
not Consider—
that this is a question with regard to the
navigation-laws.—(Hear, hear.) Whatever may
of the
be the
merits of these laws—whether it may be righmtatyo
main-
twin them inviolate—whether it is right to make certain
changes in them, or right to repeal them altogether—
that is not the question brought before the House under
the present Bill. AR that I will say, the.rpc,,re, on that
r,t; of au: supposition of the Noble Lord—and which
inp.ii,d a-considerable part of bi- arldrt:bs to thy Ilou4e
—is, that I beg to remind the House that, when the
Committee upon the navigation-laws was appointed to
siti it Was a question of the most serious importance to
-- - scibtxati contributed
interests
to