The Sun.
London, England, 1841-05-06 00:00:00

either with town or country register. The poor man had 1 a fine, the magistrates ought not to heve the power of remit-
as great an interest in the election of coroner as the rich 1 tang it. The provisions of 6 George IV. had determined the
are, and he should move an amendment to the effect that meaner in which those fines should be enforced ; they were
the coroner should be chosen by all persons rated to the similar to those in the clause, except that there was no
poor in the district. He had no objection to have the person such proviso in that Act as the one to which he objected.
rated for three months; whet he desired was that in taking He beseeched the House not to undermine the authority
up the overseers' book to the booths, and it should consti- of the coroner
SOLICITORb coissenting to any such proviso.
tute a list of electors and a check upon the voters. The NL thought that every-
Colonel T. WOOD objected to the Hoe. Members thing should be done that could be done to enforce the
proposition as a swamping of the freeholders. He should attendance of witnesses in cases of murder. He had no
press his amendment before the Hon. Members was put. doubt but that the coroner already possessed suffic'ent
Mr. HUME objected to retaining the outvoters, and power for that purpose, and he should rather leave the law
lisped the Hon. Member would not press his amendment as it was without imposing any fine, for to t ilk of fining
to a division. or imprisoning a witness for a month who refused to give
Mr. PAKINGTON suggested that they should die- evidence in a case of murder would bear no comparison
cuss the amendment of his lion. and Gallant Friend first, with the motives actuating persons to abstain from giving
and he must object to it as his great object would be de- evidence.—( Hear, hear.) He was not prepared
feated if the words were left out. to state what means the coroner possessed for en-
Mr. WAKLEY was glad to hear what bad fallen from forcing attendance, but he was satisfied that
the Hon. Member who spoke last. He considered it the such power did exist, and he thought it better to leave
most important provision that the Bill contained, and one the law as it was than to fix a maximum of punishment
that would tend more than anything else to diminish the for non-attendance by this Bill.
enorracus expense of elections. Mr. GODSON said the coroner could indict a per-
Mr. ESTCOURT supported the amendment of the son for refusing to give evidence, and he thought by im-
Hon. Member for Middlesex, and hoped the Hon. Gen- posing a fine it would be taking away that remedy. It
tleman who had the care of the Bill would consent to his would be better to leave the law as it was.
proposition. Sir CHARLES BURRELL hoped that the Member
Mr. FOX MAULE supported the clause as it stood in for Finsbury would explain in what this power consisted
the Bill, because the small amount of disfranchisement it of enforcing attendance.
would cause would not be so great an evil as the mum- Mr. WAKLEY said if he found a witness was contu-
mous expense of bringing up out-voters. He trusted the macious he should issue a warrant for his apprehension,
Hun. Gentleman would not consent to withdraw the words. and if when he came before the Court he should be in
Mr. WARBURTON supported the clause. contempt he should have no hesitation in committing him
Mr. BARNEBY thought the clause ought to run in at once, without waiting for an indictment.
such a manner as to give the franchise for the coroner to Mr. JERVIS would have no hesitation in bringing
whoever held it for Parliamentary purposes. an action against a coroner who should so commit him
Mr. JOHN JER VIS supported the clause, as the bring- for contempt.—( A laugh.) The question as to the
ing up of out-voters was a very great evil in the election power of a coroner was of considerable doubt. There
of a judicial and ministerial officer like the coroner. Of was nothing new in giving the Quarter Sessions the power
two evils he would choose the least, and would therefore of reWmittingA fines.
support the clause as it stood. Mr.WAKLEY would test the accuracy of the posi-
Lord DUNGANNON supported the amendment. He tion which he had taken in the person of the Hon. and
could not see the justice of the proposition. Upon the Learned Member, if he would give him the opportunity.
same principle they ought to say that no freeholder should If a party were in contempt before the coroner, the cc-
vote for more than one Member of Parliament. He pro- roner, as the judge of his court, had the power of corn-
tested against such a monstrous doctrine—it was taking miffing him.
away the rights of property. Mr. GODSON thought it would be better to strike
Mr. BROTHERTON supported the clause. It would the word " witness" out of the clause, and if that were
save great expense in the election of coroner, and prove a done the clause would be a most useful one.
great benefit to the officer and all concerned. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL moved that the
Mr. WARBURTON said that if it was true, as was clause be postponed. If the coroner had not the power
asserted, that the wishes of the landlords were generally of sending for and compelling the attendance of witnesses,
followed in elections, what more could the Hon. Member it was one be ought to have by law, but he was fully of opt.
for Oxford desire ? The Hon. Member would have a nion he already enjoyed it.
vote fur the county in which he resided, and in the county The clause was postponed.
in which be might have property he would have influence Clause 15 was agreed to.
through his tenants. On clause 16 being proposed, which gave the power to
After a few words from Mr. JERVIS, Colonel WOOD, the coroner to appoint a deputy, on obtaining the assent
and some other Members, strangers were ordered to with- and certificate of two Justices of the Peace,
draw, and the House divided, when there appeared— Lord G., SOMERSET Objected to the words, "being
For the amendment 6l a barrister or attorney." He moved that these words be
Against it
Majority
Mr. HUME then moved as an amendment to in- have the uncontrolled power of appointing his deputy, on
sert the words "as shall at the time of such election being made responsible for the deputy's acts.
have been rated for six months fur the relief of the poor Mr. GODSON hoped the clause would not be amen-
in any parith is, such district," so as to give every rate- ded at all, but omitted. Our liberties had been secured
payer the right ts vote, by the non-appointment of any deputy to a judicial office
Mr. PAKINGTON opposed the amendment. more than by anything else. Why? if any of the Judges
Mr. FOX MAULE said he could not think there was could not appoint a deputy, why should a Coroner ? If
any office in the country in which the lower classes were he could not perform his duties he ought to resign.
so much interested as in, the office of coroner, and be should Mr. WAKLEY was decidedly opposed to the amend-
therefore support the amendment of his Hon, Friend. Ile ment of the Hon. and Learned Member for Oxford. The
objected to the franchise of the clause, because it would question wee, would they place county coroners in the po-
substitute the present franchise, which was almost an uni- sition in which coroners for boroughs were, er not. The
versal franchise, for a more restricted one. (Lear, hear.) commencement of the clause stated that "in case of ill-
Mr. J. JERVIS felt obliged to vote against the amend. ness or other unavoidable absence, the coroner might be
meet, thinking the right of voting should be confined, as empowered," &c. &c. The coroners objected to the
it always had been, to the freeholders of the county. word " unavoidable" being introduced into the new clause.
The freeholders were, by the c =moil law, responsible It had given rise to great difficulties hitherto, and had
for the conduct of the.coroner, and it was now proposed often defeated the ends of justice.
to glee to a different class—the rate-payers—the power of Mr. PAKINGTON suggested that he would withdraw
electing that officer. The whole of the law on the sub- the clause altogether, and that his Hon. and Learned
ject o• the office must be altered if this amendment were Friend could give notice of a clause to be brought up on
adopted, and immense difficulty would arise in many cases the Report.
affecting the liberties of the people, such as outlawry, Ste. Mr. MACLEAN agreed to that proposition.
Questions connected with there subjects we:e already sur- Mr. WAKLEY adverted to the propriety of county
rounded with many perplexities, which the legal profession coroners being allowed to appoint deputies in such cases
found it difficult to' resolve, but they would be infiei(ely as when twelve inquests occurred in one day, as happened
multiplied by this prog'Osition. on one occasion in his (Mr. Wakley's) district, or where
Mr. AG LIONBY supported the amendment, because inquests were to be held at places remote from each other.
it would do away with a great deal of perjury and simplify Mr. Gell, the coroner for the City of Westminster, ap-
the qualification, besides extending the franchise. pointed Mr. Higgs as deputy, for his district, and Mr.
• Mr. WARBURTON agreed with the Right Hon. Higgs, who was coroner in chief for the Duchy of Lan-
Gentleman the Under Secretary to the Home Department, caster, also appointed a deputy for his district.
that it was most desirable to extend as widely as possible Colonel SIBTHORP said he thought that a coroner,
the franchise for the election of popular magistrates. The who had so many duties to attend to as the lion. Member
Coroner was the most popular officer in the State, and fur Finsbury, ought not to have a seat in that House,
derived his title from the words de corona populi, because Mr. GODSON said the Hon. Member for Finsbury
it was contended he should be elected by the crowd of the had shown good ground why the freeholders of Middlesex
people. Under the present system, the elections were should petition for the appointment of five or six additional
carried by corruption ; and every person who could be coroners. He thought allowing the coroner to appoint a
brought up to swear that he was a freeholder, was per. deputy would lead to abuse, and that he should either per-
mitted to vote. The Hon. and Learned Member was form the duty himself or resign the office.
mistaken in his antiquarian lore. If the coroner did Lcrd GRANVILLE 'SOMERSET said he would
wrong, and was fined by the Court of Queen's Bench, withdraw the motion.
then, in his default of payment, the fine must be paid out Sir C. BROOKE VERE objected to this clause beirg
of the county rates, which were contributed, not by the withdrawn.
freeholders alone, but by the class of persons which his Mr. FOX MAULE thought the coroner should be
Hoe. Frietgel the Member for Middlesex proposed to en- able to appoint a deputy in case of illness, or other such
franchise. contingency, but not to the extent proposed by the Hon.
Colonel THOMAS WOOD was surprised to I•ear a Member for Finsbury. He (Mr. F. Menlo) would pro-
member of the Government defend a franaiAe from the pose to amend the clause by moving to omit the proviso.
abuse of it.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He opposed After a very desultory discussion, in which Lord Gran-
the amendment, vile Somerset, Mr. Wakley, Mr. F. Maule, and several
Mr. WILBRAHAM supported the amendment, be- other Members took part, the Comthittee divided.
cause the original clause would tend to disfranchise exist- Ihe numbers were—
ing voters, and the amendment would enlarge the franchise. For the clause .
Mr. HAMILTON expressed his determination, to vote Against the clause .... 61
with the Hon. Member for Chester (Mr. Jervis), and Majority against the clause ~.. —3
against the amendment of the Hon Member for Kilkenny. The clause was consequently struck out
After some further discussion the House divided when Clauses 17, 18, 19, and 20, were agreed to without any
there appeared, division.
For the amendment 4B Oa clause 21 being put,
Against it 63 Captain HAMILTON enved that the travelling allow-
Majority against the amendment —ls Alice should be raised-teem 9d. to 18d., and not merely
On our return to the gallery we found Mr. JERVIS on to a shilling asowepootilley the clause. He did not think
his legs proposing an amendment to retain the old class of that 18d. would:; be too great an allowance, considering
voters, that coroneiedaadoto bear the expenses of post-horses.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but no divi- Mr. GRANTLEY BERKELEY secondedtheamend-
sion took place. On our re-admission to the gallery we found ment.
Mr. WAKLEY on his legs, expressing his wish that Mr. GISBORNE was opposed to any attempt at
the lion. and Learned Member would withdraw his raising the mileage from 9d., which was the sum now
amendment, as it would tend to limit the constituency allowed. The expenses of coroners were already a great
materially, whereas the clause itself would greatly in- burden on the county charges.
crease it. Lord G. SOMERSET said that a shilling would be
The Committee then divided, when there appeared— amply sufficient as an allowance to the coroners.
For Mr. Jervie'e amendment
Against it 3O of Is. 6d. per mile.
Mejsrity in favour of the amendment —43 Mr. F. MAU LE said that if the coroner was to hive
On our re-admission, we found I. 6d. per mile, he should propose that that sum be paid
Mr. PAKINGTON inquiring whether the amend- only for any distance beyond two miles from his place of
merit having been carried, the Hon. Member proposed residence.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. GODSON concurred in these views.
that the franchise should remain as it was now, er did
Sir R. INGLIS was opposed to any increase.
he eropose to disfranchise the out-voter freeholders?
Mr. CHARLES DOUGLAS supported the suges-
Mr. JERVIS did not mean in any way to limit tie
franchise. He thought every freeholder of any kind and tion of the Hon. Under Secretary. It went fully to meet
the wishes of the coroners with whom he had consulted.
every kind should ha,re the franchise,
Mr. WAKLEY was at a loss to understand what
Ms. WAKLEY said the House did not know what they
we c hbfjut. The amendment of the Hon. Member for the lion. Baronet the Member for Oxford meant by
Cee.hire horn the most outrageously disfranchising cha- describio the
_orffice W_aaks one of prose-signal advan-
rat:Le of any he had ceor ECM ; to c•
g "C
yen. l•
Memberie Y
) was a medical man.
because, in a previous
Did the imagine he could pre-
part of the eleuse, it was declared that the franchise should
scribe for the dead, or that he was to di:-
be confined to residentr. The effect of it was to reduce
the constituency of West Middlesex. to 4,000, whereas, by sect them ?—( A laugh, Whenever an office Was
the Lill of the Hon. Member for Droitwich (Mr. Peke in the gift of the Crown, they always heard from
irgton) it would reach g 7,000. teed) sides of the House of the necessity of paying the
M. GISBORNE defended the amendment of the officers well to secure efficient talent, but the moment they
Hen. Member fur Chester. Why should the nearly last came to consider the amount of remuneration to be paid
privilege of the 40s. freeholders be taken away ? to an officer appointed by the people, they became most
14 r; GOD SON suggested as there was such a diver- parsimonious.—( Cries of " Oh, oh I") It was the truth, and
sity or dilinion on this clause, itswould be better to post- it was because the truth was painful to them that they
pone it till anotflef nights whew they might settle it upon exclaimed against it. The coroner was the most ill-paid
officer in the kingdom. By giving only this inefficient
genic good understanding.
The Committee then divided upon a formal amendment, rate cf mileage, tney were giving the coroner a direct
lettered ley Mr. JERVIS, for the purpose of carrying out interest to neglect his duty, in cases of deaths from ne-
his fornof atettolment, when there appeared— glect recurring at a distance from his residence, arid
For the lame :ditient“ , 75 were impairing she efficacy of the office. He trusted that
Against it eessesee. ........ 27
Majority the coroners would receive, in the other House of Parlia-
ment, that justice which was denied them here.
........... . ...... —4B
On o'er return .to the gallery we found Mr. EVANS had never heard of an instance in which
an individual bad complained of a coroner not perform-
tihilon'e iW OO moing toot the Chairman report pre-
:D v
giesi ing his duty • but he had heard many instances of
o iimlosit leatfe 'lO sit again.
Mfr. reseiatkp'ON opposed the motion. Although coroners . holding useless inquests. The present
remuneration had been found
.sufficier'.; to_ secure a choice
he thought the pill wig injured by the decision at which
of competent persons for the situation, and he thought the
the House had just arrived/ ne'vertheless if he succeeded
roposmon of the Hon. Member for Worcestershire was a
in cart rs jog the measure he wotilds be conceived, effect a Pery liberal one.
greet Improvement in the subject to which it referred.
Captain HAMILTON found so many Members were
Colonel WOOD was prepare,: to do whatever the
K sense of the House might direer. His object was in favour of the Is. 6d. a mile that he should eertaiely
etron what Pre_ss his amendment to a division.
that the House having come to the deter - Here Strangers were then ordered to withdraw. The Com-
the franchise should be they should enable t • mitte divided, when there appeared—
Member to take time to 'see how he could best carry hole Ayes 35
.....
_...,,
views into effect. - _ 6B
Mr. PAKINGTON did not want time.— ( A laugh.) Noe,. wv
Colonel WOOD then said that he would withdraw his Maier-sees , '
~,,rom the, gallery it was underatood
motion --Motion accordingly withdrawn. During our absenc
oseu to the effect that Is. 6d,
to coroners. The
Mr. WARBURTON then moved an amendment to that an amendment was pros.,
,:.
include the class of voters which would have been included should, be the amount of mileag ;aid.
in the Bill as it originally stood. Committee divided, when there appeas."l—
58
For the amendment
Mr. JERVIS and Mr. AGLTONBY opposed the motion, 43
Against it
which was withdrawn.
Mr. T. EGERTON and Mr. ESTCOURT said they would Majority ...
Mr. FOX MAULE moved to add at end of the elauesZ
oppose the clause.
Mr. GODSON advised his Hon. Friend to withdraw 'r provided always that no charge for mileage shall be
made for any distance within two miles of the usual place
the clause, and bring up another with the Report.
Mr. FOX MAULE was of opinion that residence was of abode of such coroners."
and Mr. Pakington opposed
essential to carry out the principle of the clause, in favour Mr. Godson, Mr. Wakley,
of which he had already voted. the motion.
Mr. BAINES thought it would be better to insert the
After a fw words from Mr. DARB and Mr. in
explanation,e amidst cries of " Divide,"Y strangersJEßVlS
were or- word " additional" before " charge for mileage."
dered to withdraw, and the House divided, when the Mr. FOX MAULE said be had no objection to the
insertion of the word proposed by his Hon. Friend behind
numbers were—
For the clause 73 him.
The Committee then divided, when the numbers were—
Against the clause ... 425 For the clause 43
8
Majority for the clause —2s
Against it
The clause was then ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Majority ... —lO
Clauses 7,8, and 9, were agreed to without any oppO- The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and obtained leave
sition. to sit again.
Clauses 10, 11, 12, and 13 were then agreed to.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of,
On clause 14 being proposed,
Mr. TATTON EGERTON moved an amendment, and the House adjourned at Half-past One o'clock.
empowering the coroner to issue his warrant for the at-
tendance of a witness, and in case of refusal to imprison

ST. PETERSBURGII, APRIL 24.—Theurourna/
de St. Petersburah of this date contains the ceremonies to
be observed on the marriage of the Grand Duke Alexan-
der and the Princess Mary, which is fixed for the 28th
of this month.—Exchange on London, 23d April, 38
11-16.
The new railway carriages are intended to combine
the pleasantness of an open with the comforts of a closed
carriage. The object is accomplisha by covering the car-
riage, either wholly or in part, with metallic wire gauze,
cloth, or net, of a texture sufficiently close t) break the
force of the wind, and de:troy the violence of the currents
produced by r.tpid motion through it ; and also to impede
the rrtranee of the particles of coke dust emitted by the
k coniotive engine chimney, and yet not materially to ol).
struei tie view of external objects. The wire gauzy re-
commended is of copper wires, 1-100th of an inch in dia-
meter,woven with 30 wirer to the inch.... Manchester. Paper.

him,
The amendment was opposed by Lord Dungannon, Mr.
Jervis, and Mr. Godson.
Mr. ESTCOURT would not object to the imposition
of a fine for non-attendance, as in that case there would be
a power of appeal, but he could not agree to the amend-
ment.
Mr. PAKINGTON said he would recommend his
lion. Friend to withdraw his amendment, and instead of it
to raise the fine for non-attendance from 403. to 5/.
Mr. WAKLEY said he believed that coroners had
power to compel attendance, if they had sufficient energy
of mind t) exercise it; but as lawyers of repute had given
en opinion to the contrerv, he sT,prorrd. of the prop•ssai of
the Hon. Member for Droitwich. He objected to the
tAo I,s ,t lines in the clause, which provided that the fine
imposed by the coroner might be appealed against at the
Quarter Sessions If the coroners were enabled to inflict