The Sun.
London, England, 1812-05-09 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COM1110X3;

FRIDAY, MAY 8.
TheTranSCerable S:ocli Bill went through a Com•
the Report of whichAvas received, and the
:lilt ordered to be read a third time on Monday.
The Publicans' Bill, on the motion of Sir
TuteroN, was- read a second time, and,committed

for Tuesday. . , .. .
The Manure Carriage Bill was read a second tirtie,
a!t& ordered to be committed on Tuesday.
Mr. SiiAW, of Dublin, presented a petition.frorn
some c►editors of the Royal Canal COtnpany, pray-
ing for *relief; but it being an application for publit
money, and not ►ecomcnended by the Clown, the
,pet►•tion could not be received. .
. _

Me, \V PoLE said, he rose for the purpose of
rno, nig that the difftrent papers which had been
reient,d to the House relative to the affairs of the
Royal Canal Company should be referred to a Selea
Committee, in order that the situation of that Corti-
pally might be fully in% estigated, and that it might
he ascertained whether, in the present embarrassed

. _
stale- of their affairs, it would be practicable to secure
to the public the benefit of th'at p,leat national work,
and to grant any.rclief to the unfortunate creditors,
who, under false pretences, be might say, bad- been
led to their ruin. It would be necessary for him
shortly to recaf to the recollection of the House
what passed upon this subjea last session. A peti-
tion was presented "from the ProprietorS'of the Royal
Canal Company, praying for relief. Their petition
wai referred to the consideration of a Selett Com-
mittee, and that Committee, after a full examination -
ot the subject, ieported that, under all the circum-
stances of the case, it was their opinion that it
wou:d not be proper to grant them any aid. He
mentioned this fact to shew the House the reason
"vhy he had not recomtnended, on the part of the
Crown, the'petition .which h ,c 1 just been 'offered.
The Government of Ireland felt that after such a re-
port, it could not give its sanction to such a petition.
But if the House should agree to his motion for ap-
pointing a Selea Committee to examine,the various
papers that had been presented tespeeling this Com-
pany, the petitioners might, he apprehended, lay
theft case before that Committee, with such docu-
ments as they thought proper. His objeEt in pro-
po,ing the CoMmittee was to ascertain the actual
state of the Company, and if it would be possible to
secure to the public the benefit of that great nati-
onal worlt, and also to inquire whether any relief
could bt granted to their creditors, who had ad--
vanced no less a sum than 840,0001. for which they
were not now receiving one farthing of interest.
The Selea, Committee which he should propose
would consist of The same Members that formed
the Seled Committee last year, with the exception
of two names. One was a Noble Lord, who from
his official situation, could not now attend the Com-
rnittee ; and the o her was Sir E. Nepean, who was
abroad. He should propose in their room Sir G.
Hill .and Colonel Barry. Mr. Pole concluded with
moving for a Sul. C,-1 Committee, which was accord-
ingly appointed.
Mr. \V. PoLE then rose_ pursuant to the notice
which he had given, to wove that the House should
on Monday resole itself into a Committee to con-
sider of a resolution which he should propose for
raising the salaries of the Commissioners of Appeal
in Ireland. These Gentlemen had very important
and laborious duties to perform ; they heard all the

appeals from the country, as. well as those wising in
Duolin. The business of the rewenne was so much
' increased, that their time was now wholly occupied,
and he had the satislaalion to add, that it was im-
possible for any Gentlemen ,to perform their duties
in a more exemplary manner, or more to the satis-
faction of the Publie. These Commissioners were
of very old standing, haying been established in the
reign of Charles 11. and they were most inadequate-
ly paid ; their salary was at first 3001: a year, which
Was paid out of the Civil List. In 1802 or 3, upon
a representation of their case, 2001. a year was adds
ed to their salaries;, so that at wesent these distin-
guished persons, .4 ho were necessarily eminent law-
ers, and who acted as.judges. in cases of . propel ty
to a vast amount, only received 5001. a year each.
This subjeti had been for some time under the con-
aideration of the Irish Govertnnent ; the case had
been refgrred to the high Law Anthorities in lie-
la:td, who were deafly of opinion
_that their salaries
were inadequate to their labours. Under these cir-
cumstances, he should., propose in the Committee
that their salaries should be raised to 8001. a year ;
that they should bold their offices like the Judges,
daring good behaviour, and that they should be en-
titled to a retirement of 5001. a year after fifteen
years service. The pension allowed to the Judges
was two-thirds of their salary: in the present in-
stance, the sum to be allowed as a retirement was
not quite two-thirr!s. This subject was very well
understood in Ireland, and he did not think that he.
should meet with any opposition in the motion from
troy Gentleman from that couatry. He had tnenti-
(lied his intention of making this proposition to a
flight H..noutable Gentleman, who held formerly a
legal situation in Ireland„ whom, he did Dot-
i ,kit see in the House, and that Gentleman had ex-
pressed his approbation both of the increase of the
salary, and of the tenure by which it was proposed
that these Gentlemen
.should hold their offices. He
had only fun her-to add, that he should propose that
t.la,se salaries should in future be paid out of the Con-
solidated Fund. There was uccW a deficiency of seven
" IP- eight thousand a year in the Civil List in come-
tat < ee of the increase which had been made to the
sa;ary of the: Lord Lieutenant, and by transferring
. I; ese salarie*,to the Consolidated Fund, the Civil
Lest would be relieved of fifteen hundred a year.--,
it the Committee should agree with him in thinking
th.st these sitlaries should be raised, there could not,
be was persuaded, be any objection to the increase
taking place from the commencement of the year.
• Tire Motion was agreed to.
Mr. FL SUMNER obtained leave to bring in a Bill
for the better regulating the nightly watch of the
City, of Wevininster, and the parishes in the vicinia
ty of the metropolis. - He then brought in the
Bid, .4 'rich was lead'a first' and ordered to be read
a second, time on Tuesday,:and to be printed.
The•lrish Suear distillation Bill, was read a se-
cond time, and ordered to be committed on Wed-
neslay.
A new Writ was ordered for
..the County of
Down, in the room of Mr Savage, who since his
election, has accepted the situation of Ess.:heator'-of
Munster. .

Mr. P. Co4;:z cno‘fe4, that the Petitions ftotu
the Frame Knitters, which were on
,the Table,

should be refemd to a Select Committee.
Mr. StAtTit seconded the motion, which
was carried, and a Cdintnntee accord-

irigly,
Mr. G. CLERK moved the second reading of the
Scotch.Distillanon Bill,. but there appearing ho en-
admen). on it, the Speaker ditedted it to be with-
-drawn.. It was accordingly withdrawn, for the pur-
pose of prepating another.
Lord BINN / G
.poitponed the consideration of the
Rrport of the Mail Coach Exemption Bill, to

Wednesday. •
On the motion of Mr Holt N'Elt, the following ac-
coun►s wele ordered to.be laid before the House,
viz :—a to'al account of the official value of the
Exports from Grearitain to the Continent of
Europe, in the }ears I BQS, 6, 7;8, y, 10, and ii ;
and accounts of .alf E4ports trout Great Britain to
the Continent of Eutope within the period, distin-

visiting manufaaures from Colonial pioJuce,
PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.
Mr. BRAND was surry to be oblig,ed_to bring for-
Ward a measure of such extreme itnportance as that
of which he had given notice, in so thin a House.
—That it was so ernpty, he could `only attribute to
the circumstance of its being brought forward by so
bumble an individual as himself. He however had
some consolation in reflecti►►g,' that th,,se alarmt►s
-which had formetly been excit,d when this subject
was agitated, by an apprehension of revolutionary
designs; had.in a great degree subdued, god he them-
fore trusted it would be calmly and dispassonately
discussed.—He declared himself to be; no friend to

innovation or speculative itnprovemenie and, avow-
ing this, he hoped to have the support of the House
aed of the country at large. The people in this
country, alarmed at the situation in either trey saw
the nations of the Continen‘, were satisfied 'Orel it
was not for them to attempt any speculative inno-
vation, and he thought it would be Nell if the (err-
vernment of this country had imitated them, in thee
respe&, by looking at the negled of Foreign Go-
vernments, and at its consequences, and profiled by
the view in the same degree as he thought the peo-
ple bad profited by looking abroad. It might be
said, why did he bring this subject forward now, at
a time when the people themselves appeared indiffe-
,rent about it ? That the people were indifferent
about it, he would deny. They had before proofs
that this was not the fad. The variety of Peti-
tions which had been :resented to the House, was a
proof that,it was felt that some change in the. re-
presentation of the people was necessary. But if
this had not been so, when it was considered how
the manner in which Members were reteined to
that House had been ptila!ished throughout the
country, it would have been incumbent on Perliae
ment to have taken the subject into consideration.
A motion had been made by an Hon. Member in
that House, on the pradices of Ministers, in getting
Members returned to that House. The motion' was
resisted,•and the general feeling of the House seem-
ed to be, that it might not to be entertained, as the
practice was notorious. The pradtice, however,
had been reprobated by many, and oven the Speaker
had declared, ,with his great knowledge of the Con-
stitution, that Members were returned to that House
though pradices et which their ancestors would have
startled with indignation. He (Mr. Brand) thought
that the admission of the universality of the ,prac-
tice was a strong and an unanswerable argument in
favour of their taking the subject into consideration.
That to which he had principally to direct the atten-
tioneef the House, was the number of persons who
wete mantled without any claim to represent the
people. He had made a calculation, which he
would read to them as a curiosity, and if any Gen-
tleman denied its accuracy, he hoped that that Gen-
tleman would move for a Committee of the House
on the subject, and then he '(Mr. Brand) would
prove, what he should advance, and more than he
intended to advance, at the bar. From the calcu-
lation he had made, it appeared that 182 indit iduals,
nominated, or otherwise by their influence; procured
the return of three hundred and twenty-six inemheis
to that House. This statement would astonish at
first those most acquainted with the manner in
which Members were returned. There were in the
House 70 placemene and besides there were about
40 persons returned on either side by what was call-
ed compromise. What he most. objected to, how-
ever, was, that 1.82 individuals should nominate 192
Members in Ireland, Scotland, and England.—
[Here it was observed that the Hon. Member had
staled before the number of Members nominated by
I 82 persons to be 326], He denied having stated
eefi to be nominated by 182 persons ; he had said
that number was returned by the nomination, or
through theimfluence of 182, individuals. Taking
the tee Members who were so nominated by 192
individuals, and adding to them the seventy place-
men who had seats in the House, it would be seen
that there were 202 persons who were net free to
vole fairly, optionally, and according to what they
might think was right. If to these were added the
40 brought in by compromise—but rather than over-
state the number, he would take the/number so in-
troduced at 30, and then it would be seen that two
hundred and ninety two pet sons sat within those
walls who had not the poWer of exercising a free
discretion in debate. - The Hon. Gentleman here
took occasion to speak of the Septennial Act. Hew
it could be passed he knew 'not, but to hint it ap-
peared, that if. Parliament had a right to enad that
they should have a duration of seven years, they had
a right to prolong it for 2 t years or for life. Having
descanted at some length on the disadvantages of
Septennial Parliaments, he proceeded to state the
plan which he wished to submit to the House. There
were a number of places which returned Members
which had no population. He would propose that
such places should be disfranchised, and other
places of great opulence, and possessing numerous
inhabitants, should be enabled to return Mem-
bers to Parliament ; such as Birmingham, Sheffield,
part of the large county of York, (which returned
but two Members to Parliament) and that vast mass
Of population to the north of Oxford-s.reet. The
first thing he wished to get rid of, was the nomina-
tion of which he had spoken, as -of this he could
not think without a feeling of disgust, which he
would not exprees. -Mr. Pitt, in trie early part of
his life, had proposed a plan for the reform of there-
presentat ion of the people which he (Mr.B.) thought
the House would have done well to adopt, in
which he adverted to the state of 35 or 36 boroughs,
Teese boroughs were in the same' dilapidated

uninbab.ted state in which they were al that tirtie.
They were considered,,merely as property to convey
site power„of nomination from one successful spe-
culator to another. There might considerable
difficulty in transferring the eledive franchi*e to
the places he had mentioned, but the nomination
•tif which he complained first got rid of,-that alight
be'an alter coosideration. It %%Tali toruierly -she
prattice of the country to throw boroughs co:witted
Of bribery, into the Hundreds. Now he would

ask, what diiierence it made, whether a poor ig-
hermit opinformed voter sold his vote for 51. or a

rich speculator his nomination for 50001. To him
the criminality appeared the same, and the mis-
chief in the latter case much greater than' in the

Fortner,

Toe blibed voter could not command the

person Pratn Whom he received the bribe, but the
bribed nominator could dic:tate to that House, to

the people, to the tVlinisters, and to the Crown.--,
He'.wished some of these boroughs to be throWn
into the country, with a view to their being subse-

quently fairly and equally represented in Pat liameut.
!the were allowed, to bring rti a Bill on the sub-
jeCt, he would prove that these boroughs were
bought and sold as regularly as any woollen mann-
factures Nkere that Gentlemen wore When they
came to that House. 'lt this were agreed to,
.he
:hoped the House would let, it go to a Committee,
in which he thought he should with little difficulty

he able to suggest a plan for equal representation of
the people., He thought Copyholders ought to be
•allowed to tote for Members of, Parliament. A
Parliament like the present might do well to regis-
ter the editts of the Minister, to indemnify bun,
and to cover him from the public indignation, but
he thought; after the decision op theWaleherenques7
tion and after the decisions which the House
had come eo on other questions, sb:ne of their
of a "personal nature, which, for that reason,
he would not mention, that no man who read their
,history, would think they spoke the sense of the
people, or' sympathised with the feelings of the
country. His opinions and his plan were the same
as they were when he brought the subjea forward
two years ago. He thought all must acknowledge
that they were hot fairly the Representatives of the
people. In all their decisions, patty was to be seen
against party, and interest against interest. A
powerful aristocracy was to be seen against a bo-
rough lakaion but he thought no person in the
country could doubt that the present representation
of the country was unfit and inadequate, and not
according to any like, in the most remote degree, a
constitutional idea of representatioe. The House
would never regain the confidence of the people
until they sacriOced their own interests on the altar
of public opinion. The Right Hon. Gentleman,
opposite (Mr. Ryder), smiled at this assertion ; but
be aright be assured that a proper reform in the re-
presentation of the people would do much more to
tranquilize the country, than all his meritorous ef-t
forts. He repeated his regret at the thinness of the
House; he had hoped that the greatness of the cause
would have a'oned for the deficiency of the advo-
cate. He 'rusted, however, that he should be al-
lowed to bring in the two Bills which he wished to
introduce. He trusted that the House would no
longer- shut its eyes so wilfully to the illegality of
its authority, for he was. persuaded, with one of
the most eloquent writers that this country eset
produced, that " England would never be 'undone
but by its Parliament." The Honourable Gerok-
mats concluded by moving for leave to bring in
a Bill " to repeal the 31 George IL c. 48 ; and
to entitle Cepy holders to rote for Knights of the
Shire."

The Marquis of TA-VISTOCK seconded the mo-•
lion. -He declared, that if the Bill which he had ob-
tained leave to bring in for reducing the expense of
elections were agreed to,' he would move (or the
repeal of septennial Parliaments ; as he was per-
suaded that (in that event) short Parliaments would
be highly beneficial, by increasing-the communica-
tion between-the representative and the reprcs,nt-
ted; and indueiug the former to pay more attention
to the wishes and interests of the latter. With re-
spea to the great question of-reform, notwitlesiand-
ing there were some differences of opinion among
those who were _friendly to' the general Measure,
yet he thought those differences might easily be re-
conciled. Some were for radical reform', o; hers for
what was called moderate reform. Now, he
thdught, they might bteunited. The reform might
be radical, as exterminating she roots of the exist-
ing evil ;—it might be moderate, as prOceeding not •
upon wild and .fanciful theories, but on just and
sober principles, by which the pristine health and •
soundness Of the British Constitution might be re-
stored. If then a complete reformation could not
be effe&ed, at least let every effort be made to
'establish, ,as far as possible, the •pority of Par-
liament. If the House continued blind to these
truths, the most pernicious consquences, bulb to
Parliament and to the State, might and must even-
tually ensue.
Mr. W. ELLIOTT, in a speech of considerable
length and ability, opposed the motion. It appear-
ed to him to be nothing less, than staking, on a
ptecariotls and desperate chance, the experienced
and acknowledged benefits of a Constitution, which
tiad hitlrerto been the admiration. of the world.
Those Alto were advocates for a reformation in Par-
• liament, were bound to thew, first, that the hap-
pitass.and prosperity of the people/were diminish-.
ed; and, secoodiv, that that diminution resulted
from the deleas in the representation. The existing
commercial distresses were out of the question.
They were of a temporary nature, and originated in
different circumstances, although he was by no
means disposed to conceal their magrraude con
vinced as he was, that to be fully sensible of our-
dangers,, was the surest mode of bringing to a suc-
cessful issue the dreadful contest in wino we were
engaged. It might be said, that those distresses
arose from the war. But that, in superting the
present and every war since the Revolution, Parlia-
ment only expressed the sense of the people; how-
ever mistaken that sense might bt% a reference to
history would indubitably establish. The American
war, so adverse to equity and sound policy, and the
ill effects of which were felt by Great Britain to
this, day, was a war in which the people concurred.
one Petition from the people had been pre-
sented against it. It was the virtue of Parliainent,
and not the virtue of the people that put an end to
that war. SO with Oct present war,- the people
were so completely with. Mr. Pitt in the support of
it, that the enemies of the w:ir in Parliament retired
from their seats /dr a time, in utter despair of raak-

jug any iniprmion on the minds of the people;

hvourable to what they conceived to be the try

view of things. The inference was, that the present
:war was not attributable to any doted in the re-
presentation, since the people maintained as strongly

as their representatives the principle on which it pro=
ceeded, and yet to the war the existing distresses of

the country were attributable. In general the House
spoke the sense of the people ; and as to any, partie...
eular decision, no.plail could rearove the imperfectich
of human nature---no plan could produce an uninter-
rupted course of
.I.yisdotn, or secure complete unani•
linty. There would still be majorities and tninori' .
ties, and the latter would still complain of the cot"
ruption of the former. The theory of the British
Constitution was incapable of being defined ; it coeti
be deduced only frOm prattice ; it con,iseed of
tual - checks and controuls among its coniponent
parts, the mode of operation of which it ui, not'
very easy to ascertain_; it stood on prescription,
grew out of the feelings and habits and necessiue3 of
the people. The ad ual state of things therefore was.
the only criterion by which to judge of our 11101 Li'
tions. Let this rule.be applied to representation.--
It was true that Birmingham was not represented--
that Leeds Was nor represented—that Sheffield liars
not represented. But were these places less flon''
rishing titan York, which was 'represented—aaltan
Hull, whi6i was represented—than • Bristol, which ;
was represented ) Were the interest's of any parts'
cular place negleded in the House ? . The filet ws'
that the House
,represented the whole country. But.,
the retormatioo proposed w9uld at one blow excludd
from Parliament,
,many of those who mere best cal•-•
culated to clothe country service. No one wished
more than he that there should be an identity of in' '
terest between Parliament and the people ; but ire
confessed that he did not wish to see Parliament
whirled about by every blast of .popular
There was no part of the proposition for reform, l°
which he so strongly ohjeAed, as to the restoration
of triennial Parliaments. It vas said that they would
be more pure. On what was this as-ertton founded ?
If experience were consulted, it would be found tlint
triennial Parliaments had been more personally 0,0-
rupt than septennial. Their only effect on the pee'
ple was to corrupt their morals, by taking tHeill -
more Iteluently from their occupations. An ana'
logy in favour of Reform had been attenipted to.°
shewn, from the reduction of the Representative'
of Ireland.. That reduction was necessary.; the-
or °posed Reform was unnecessary ; and therefore.'
he would not hazard it. So with respect to tb°
proposed Reform in the representation of Scotlarni'
his atutnent was, ,that the present State of the re-
presentation of that country had existed for abo.ve
a century, and that no part of his Majesty's dowill!-
ons enjoyed greater prosperity. Why risk all Il"5
good ? Besides, how vague, how undefined; how or
,posite,were the opinions of those who proressed Chen'
selyes to be the friends of Reform ! They scarcely g°e
together at the Crown and Anchor Tavern, or at e
Freemason's Tavern, before they began todispute opt '
their respective plans. How would his Honotnab
Friend propose to reconcile these discordant Or;
Mons ) how could he conciliate 4-hose who in Ilk4jf
presented a petition founded on t 1 abstract rights •
man ? hoW could he conciliate that rent pairiorcl':
as he was called, of reform, Majoreartwrialit ?
would he conciliate those who maintained the °Pc
Mons of Mr. Flood ? 4 Society had lately beer,
established under the name of " the Ha-tree ,
-(2b." One of the resolution,;. advertised as ?rule'
ceeding from this Club was,—" That ac(ovd",
to the principles of -the great Camden, taxa°if
and representation were' inseparable." Novi od
this meant '(and from its having the name
sandion of the Honourable Member for I\Vestre',l„
ster, he supposed it dtd so mean) that every ° 4 •
who paid a tax was entitled to a suffrage, vL bo woqj.
his Hon. Friend conciliate m these Hapdeni'l',.ia •
Whose minds did- his Hon. Friend think he wcit4a
settle i He (,),Ir. E ) could tell hitn_what wind% of.
would unsettle. He would unsmle the miL'd'och
a large portion' of the liciptilation of the moire:
would unsettle the minds of many of ,those
were attached to the Constitution as it stood
re,
would tear up that stable anchor-of the State--a la a
jud;ce (or antiquity, a reverence for ancient use'
acrd acknowledged benefits ;. and he would Runt J,
country adriftupon the rocksof vain speculatloo .Isoej
fantastie imaginary improvement. He coni`soo
that he-entertained some doubt with respect Wl,lO
petitions for a Reform in Parliament,
whichve
been laid on the table of that House. 10
advocates of reform knew very well bow be,
mimic the Public voice. Ile did not, however, 05-
lieve that there was any thing like a general feel ny
on their side. In this opinion he was confirl eu.
tft2.ir own complaints of the langUished state °,ft, 0(r
public Mind on Pd the subject, and of the necess'tioi,e'
siring it up to exertion. To commence a• to
mentary reform at the present moment-even id be
it necessary, or advisable ,at any period, w".ine
to comn;ence the repair of a House in the hurl'' fo'
season. At this critical period, was it prode°
call on the people to search the veiy founda'iti,`; v
the Commonwealth) Such an attempt N
av".ll,
of
only to make breaches, and-to let in all the turloct
the elements upon that venerable edifice, wh'cintbase
stood so many storms and assaults. C)" oto
grounds Inc should give his decided yore agninsl`,ll
motion.; it
and he earnestly, hoped and pra)ed!
rt•
would receive the negative "of a large ri"J°T.
the House.
LITTLtTON, admiring as he did, the s
statesmanlike eloqueoce and statesmalike speech of his with.
Friend who had just sat down, and coinciding ot,if
him also 'in many of his premises, felt hi` reed'
.obliged dis-ent from its conclusion: He 21.,,t•
with his Hon. Friend, that the Constitution oh 0
land was built not on theory, but on prescript' 0,
and practice. He agreed with his 1-100.1"eilre
in his objection to many of the doarines.of th:our,
formers, and particularly to those of the H°::.) re,
able Member for 'Westminster. To say .tna'
turn to the state in which the
five hundred years ago was no- innovation, \
csiety
de:leive ourselves. The different state of rciple#
rendered the recurreuce 'to such ancient Pr'l),,l,riv•
. Hoo,
impraCtibable. But he differed from histie
ble. Friend, in thinking that no Reform w iba
"representation
for
was neeessray. Making every allowance
probability of his being biassed by nat'Y;
he still was persuaded that the House 0' ~.4ra.
moos had mink in public opioion. To this,oo;
too•
dation their votes on- the question resc-edl,e,
conduct of the Noble Lord and Right tatio,73_
Hon•
luquirY'
::ion opposite,
.and on the Walcheren

,1.1

Id

ri

'el

2°4lY enntribetect *those troiet Con 7ei be •
puted only .
to the corrupt influence orthe Crowfl
exercised tor the defence of- the Ministets. It was
ins corrupt influence of the Crown which he wiskd-
-10 get rid Qt.-.
In other respeas the House of Corn-
eillt)ns was adrnirably constituted. Could any one.
,xPeCt more knowledge—more talents or more:, in-,
ciustry from a change in-the mode crt that cons' it uton r
.‘ll.l' no means. Bur it was just to expect considetable
tatuivantage from the abatement of 1110 Royal. in" ence• It was desirable to dismiss- the number of
place
fr, amen in the House of Commens, and to ad-
ioitf into it more of the control of the people,
•of the lower classe, hut of the enlightened po-
Pular • • '
100 of the country: • To triennial Parliametits
'te had as great an objection as his Hon. Friend.—
~te3confessed, however, that he .did nut expect to
any great improvement in the character of Par-
n'euf, until some improve tent took place in the
Pl.lrit of the Germ), of England. At present they
Q
toanifested a melancholy and culpable indifference
edP°litics. Many of them appeared to have adopt-
hereditary
(lpiittions. Hopinions, and to act blindly on those
He trusted that this torpor would one
Ct=ases and that he should see the individuals to
4n I°4l he had alluded aft with a spirit worthy of
tutinnwh° enjoyed the privilege of a free Consti-
._
e'ir. WARD paid a high. compliment to the Hon.
a Llentan (Mr. Elliott) wlio had replied to the
Peecika of the Hon.- Mover and Seconder of the
present
lent Proposition nthser that the great the
s exhibited by at Hon. Gentleman, and the.
f
haliv:4e areument which he had adopted, must
per— strongly reminded the House ut illustrious
14-iS°ll„ (We presumr. Mr. Burke), who was once
their (We
and ornament. With that Hon. Gen-
tleman, he wished to stein the full tide of mischief,
ti Ica it Was
proposed to let iv, upon the country.
knew. that he should differ on this subject from
tcheTtahooritityseo,
of
andtishee k withn ewwti= tut: Y actincuracted
the
16'14 loss of all hope of popularity.' It required
lit-
calskill on the part of the reformers to insist in their
gpalse the strongest of the people. They had also
°0 pains to throw unmerited odiuM on those
ths°PPosed their plans, by charadething them as
doty:iends, of corruption and the enemies of
_free-
mJ. A comparison, however, of time ch traders of
lie advocates on both sides ,of the question would,
li believedt not be unfavourable • to thi.se who
limenoglit with hint that the proposed experiment on
Nvi,n'°°'lnution was pregnant with danger. Those
were on the other side talked of the British
gier7tution as if they spoke of that. of Spaio,•Al-
ttctilOr Turkey. What was the best test of the
Pecejence of a,Constitution ? The happiness of the
parse. That happlvess must be estimated, not at.-
Crleieniar mode of-pressure, but on a general con-
.ktioati°ll. The comparison, in this respect, of
wand -
lON • with other counnies, and with itself in
kainer tittles, was highly in Its favour. tie did not
trmosttaiin, that the Constitution had reached the ut-
1114,,,l'eigin of perfection ; but as often as he heard
l)o4°l4ed stmemenis of evils-made, for the per=
41itid
still exist, they °I disgusting the people, he must re-
ta,titai •1R t'en) that atilt iugh spate little defeet
st enjo)s a
. • stale •of. po=
Id
Not haPpiness' unequalled in the word; This
clraii:l37 scatc:ly lasted a' drop of that 13,tter
14q?''' which o• her nations had been compelled
'(ltltr.l4; lo the very dregs. Little remained to be
~iotitt° the stock of public happiness; but much
lose edsllY be taken away. He was not one of
aowho L1140111113' exclaimed against innovation.
tloyitoe'wed that what was innovation once, was in-
ttoa )ti nu..'. Ail he asked was, not that innova-
tt -"ould • • but ,that
shnto be considered an evil
~,\Pecat, u not be considered a good in itself. The ad-
‘•;oror-Is !el' Reform contended that the House of
1\131,.'t did not speak the sentimen:s of the peo-
,,it w 11'11'11 was tbe fact ? Was it not, as had been
yetapte stated by the Hon. Gentleman, that the
~. for instance, were friendly to time present
1'4112-lis Hon. Frie-nd it him (Mr. Whitbread)
'tttait-:,%''' ably, and in his opinion most wisely, but
qtiee. Y unsuccesstuky, opposed the continu-
larity°l the win-. No put, however, of his ' poop.
the 41 ,the
from that _circumstance. Amidst
Da"Y praises which he hail heard, bestowed on
lisaceo.• Friend out of that House; his love of
la 4)
Pe ace
was never made the subject of eulogeeisiotiy. In
had been all along most unpopular. The
Parliament on tine Walchercn question
tie arraig
i 0% th
n ag strongly as he could without in-
Al 0, e Orders of the House; but nevertheless
petits't appear to have been contrary to the senti-
-41 (.4 the meo le—that identical people who,
cold 1
f, -blooded indifference, saw 'four mil-
hg
nle money wasted, and hundreds of valu.
0.1410 es saczificed a few months alter they had
gee 8- , time.
ouizeudiscoverer ut fernale in-
-I\t lice in
as time disposal of mi:italy commissions !
lip sad that a Reform in Parliament
7len °Cetsi".n greater personal integrity in public
e,hrit,'ere never was a period in which Hien in
Ott 01" e stations were so lire trom the imputa-
lloin,liv.Personal corruption. Timis praise belonged
'nil pared of all parties. Let the present reign
'4l v riared that iespeet to that of Queen Anne..
roar triennial Parliamems existed in the latter
tever'e(!),,7l°d• And yet time great. men of that day
ttlte eived that a Reform Parliament would
th the evp
e plans by whicli they were surrounded. All
tlbeticy,i, of Reform which lie had seen, had a ten-
‘l4 ui 41" 3 considerable degree, to diminish the num-
,Elev ien of business in thai House ;in of her words,
whim We a tendency to diminish the number of those
ere
now best calculated to serve the country•
tofi.„ ever, he had nodifficulty in admitting, t hat
Nuti,
to et' of the Crown in Parliament was by
iltiletlee Preponderating. It was by that in-
ItlettO be hat a feeble Administration had hi-
-1,7 the hi en
enabled to maintain itself in place.
att. r**esen,
141- b Administration, the reformers were
s
'‘llbent-"gse they knew that a more vigorous Go-
ttleric Would be'fatal to their designs. _This in-
btl. the
emnfortunately operated with as much strength
s' elf • stiluents of the House, as on the House
tatu inr Stink
taji,' and I was. the extent of our naval,
4iCeely a civil -establishments, that there was
4rectivnitidividual in the country, who directly or
°St did not seek for some favour of the Ci own,
to, A:f the
%%ow People, therefore, wanted Members
cod
e 41,341 -04 represent them, not in the House of
.141. -.our, but at the Treasury ; and who would
4,,„ke 1° obtain for them a rivulet from the
wk, ark •
klit` th 4 °I patronage,' to water the naked spot
eY dwelt. TheSe men, therefore, had
•

a ts.furale preference 'for. tlf weak adaniniStratiob-;
they had no dislike to jobbing. and they thought,
a morning well spent in Downing-street, worth
many evening's passed in the discharge of their dit-
ties:in that Horse. -That it was not the mem-
bers for rotten boroaighs who gave Minisieis
their majorities in the- House of Commons was
apparent. Lea Gentlemen consider, for instance,
the division on that fatal measure, the Walcheren
expedition. As many of the real representatives of
large bodies of the people voted in the majority on
that occasion, as of Members for rotten boroughs;
no inference, therefbreecould be deduced from that•
circumstance in favour of Parliamentary Reform.—.
Ttse number ot. electors for London was thirteen
thousand. This was popular' enough surely, yet
three of the., four Representatkes of this great
bialy of people voted that the Walcheren Expe-
dition was .a laudable undertaking. Would the
friends of reform r hence in feethat the city of London.
Was rotten, and that it ought to he disfranchised ?
One 'of the evils resulting from the measure, would
be that of giving the opinions of the people too
great an influence, and making the House of Com-
mons not the faithful eeriay -of their character and
principles, but the mirror which should'reflett their
prejudices and passions. It would also lead to a
great change in the persons who, at present, consai.
toted the House, and operate as' a perpetual bounty
to turbulence. When: be looked round' on that
much-reviled assembly, he could not see how it
could be better fitted for all -the purposes of
legislation, if such mountebanks' tricks were to
be resorted to for the attainment of 'populari-
ty, which would then become nece-ss try. When
he placed before his eyes the • tarries of , thoses
to whom England was most indebted for her li-
berties, and refle&ed that -they took their spring
from that -contamiva•ed soil Which we •were now to
tut from under the feet of succeeding genereions,
he corsisl not agree' in the proposition of his Hun.
Friend. On the subject of Scots refo-rm, he could
not help observing, that if it was granted, it would
be a most unexpected boon. - After dwelling ''ar
some length on the views of the Reformers, and
their aversion to the moderate reform now proposed,
he concluded with a strong exhortation to the
House, to venerate and protect the Constitution
as it existed, and as they had experienced its aea
vantages. •
S rFluascis BURDETT said, that, his notions on
the subject were so dire=ctly opposite to, those of tire
Hon. Penfletuan who had just sat down, he could
not help making some observations, not witbstandiri.g
the disadvantages Lauder which be rose after such an
elaborate
_Speech—a speech, however, which he
thought as little consistent with itself, as with the
principles of the Constitution. The House was
cautioned against Subjeeting its decisions to the gusts
of popular - opinion, but he stood upon the great
fundamental principle, that the people were entitled
to a share in the Government of the Country, and
that the only share they could have, was that of re- ,
presentation. They were desired to look to certain
rotten boroughs, as having been the means of intro-
ducrog the best represeutwives ; but if that was the
Constitution, he would rather the Crown should be
despotic avoxedly, than despotic by such means,—
When he looked to the Constitution, which he be-
lieved to be written in the old laws, and in the prin-
ciples of which they were founded, he. perceik'ed
that our Government consisted of King, Lords, arid
Comaions, anu however violent he reight be repre-
sented to be,. Judge Blackstone, who was not very-
liable to the chargeof violence, maintained the same
principles on this subject with hint. He considered
that the Great Charter of the country was not obao-
lets!, -however it might be infringed ; that Charter
was the birth-right of tlnglislimen. In that it was
provided that the people should not be taxed with-
out their own consent, and that eledions,ought to
be free ; so that if he, could make out that the con-
trary was the case, he should establish Ilia poSition.
He quoted tire. opinion of Fortescue, Who ascribed.
'the excellence of the laws of Leglaud to the circum-
stance of the consent of the realm being necessary to
their enaffinerie. He also appealed to the authority
of iv:lr. Windham in-proof of the curt option of Par-.
!lament that existed;' and recommended as the only •
means Of checking that evil a lair- representation of
the people. It had been said. that moderate reform
would not go as tar as he and others wished; 'bat he
was one who, though he looked to radical reform,
would always give his humbleesuppoit to every re-
form. The Hon. Gentleman said the great orna-
ments of our country never called for • refot but
did he forget the declaration of Sir William Wind-
ham, in favour of an honest representation ? Did lie
forgetsthe writings of Lord Halifax, who supported
the same principles, time work of Sir William ibises,'
or the authority of the Earl of Devonshire, Who pro-
tested against the Septennial Bill ? Might not every
thing be deolare.l high treason by Parliament ?
Might not property and even life itself be affetted by
it, if there was a, Miniver profligate enough for
such desiges; and *as it not necessary to be provid-
ed with a security ? He next instanced the opihiona
of Lord Chatham, Mr. Pitt, and Mr. Fox, in fa-
vour of Parhatnentaly Relbt in, and maintained, that
even if the Scotch were satisfied with the represen- .
ration as it stood at presem, an honest Statesman.
should go against the popular opinion, to do a bene-
fit to the country. It it was not for the negleCt of
Government to arm the proi,eity Of the Ration, ac-
cording to tbe Statute Bt-aolt, no riot, he maintained,
could happen, which 'could not`be immediately sup-
pressed. In former times, they never dreamt of
sending writs-to stocks and sto' ; and if they were
.now desirous- of Reform, they 'had nothing_ else 'to_
do, but toirnmediately repeal the ActsJor Septen-
nial and Triennial Parliaments, and to restore the
prerogative of the Crown to issue writs to other than
rotten boroughs'. As to the, argument that they
woeld be deptived of great talents by adopting the
;Measure, he should observe, that in those times
when no rotten boroughs were in existence, able
men were found to condutit the public affairs. He
was aware'that there were many timid persons who
opposed' reform ppm no other ground than their
own fears; but .from the view he had of the practi-
cal effects and profligate waste of the contrary sys-
tem, he should not hesitate to give his vote in favour
of tire proposed improvement.
Lord MteTosr. said, he differed materially from
the Hen. Baronet who spoke last, especially. as to
the expedient of enabling the Crown to send writs
to any Borough it pleased. Nothing could be
more hostile to freedom, or subVersive of the .
con-
stitution, though it came from a great advocate uf

popular liberty,. With deferinCe to his Honourable
Friend (Mr. Brand) and the' Honourable Baronet,
:he thought they were mistaken in supposing that
'the il.uOughs which returned Members, originafly
were pl icts of groat wealth and,population. It was
tree t hat oony -,vere.great which had declined; but
many ,A.ere insignrficant at that period which had risen
to einitirnce. With' all his partiality for the landed
interest, he, thought it would be a great evil, if no
others were admitted. He wish-d, after all that
had been said of the rottenness and unsoundness of
the constitution, to know. in what part of it that
rottenness and unsoundness was to be found. His
Hon. Friend wished that the copybolder should hare
a vote as well as the freeholder; but his objeCtion to
the step was, .that it did not immediately
.accord:
with the old constitution. He whit say, as to the
allusion to the Earl of Devonshire, he happened
lately to have read his protest, which did not .go
against the principle of Septennial Parliaments gene.:
rally, but against the exclusion of that particular
ParliaMent. He conjured the House to pause be-
fore they touched with sacrilegious hands that
temple which was raised by the wisrlomsof our an-
cestors, assisted by what. was called: aceideni, but
what was in -reality the hand of Providence work-
ing for the good of man.
Sir S. ROMILLY expressed his surprise at -the 'ar-
guments of the Noble Lord, and deelaied he had
long thought reform neCess.ry as a means of dimi-
nishing the influence of the Crown. With resned
to the proposition_ of his Hooourable Friend, fOr
adding copyholders to. freeholders, and to take the
eleave fratichise from the Eledors of. Close Bo-
roughs, and give it to the Counties, he thought 'it
was so fair and equitable that the House could not •
object to it. It would bbrecolleoed, that copyhold
estates were in effect the same as freeholds.

Lor4, MwroN shOrtly explaioed, '
Mr. D. GIDDY was not inclined to .offer many
ob,ertations tion, the motion, as it had been dis-
cussed much more'eloqaently than he could discuss
it. The objea of those who contended in support
of the motion was to make the Parliament a demo-
cratic one; but he would defy any of the Gentle-
men 'supporting the proposition, to strew him that
such a mode of representation Vuuld be better than
a mixed farm of GovernMent. He could sympa-
thize as much as the Honourable'llaronet could do
with the situation of the people at present. But the
proposed alteration could not benefit, the Constitu-
tion. Such an assembly, coupled as it would be by
the fancies of a variety of persons, or as was once
expressed by an Hon. Member, " composed of the
worst materials-=the base pander of the worst pas-
sions of the people," would never arnalpmate with
the other branches of the Legislatnre: Ilassemblies‘
of this description did .exist, tt must be at a distance
from the metropolis, surrounded, and striB:y guard-
ed by an armed force, for they would most likely
be
.apt to indulge opinions that the King was a cy-
pher. The present state of representation was the
very perfeaion of the Constont ion, and competent
to, all useful and necessary purposes. A democra-
Ccal one would absorb the other branches. Could it
he said, that Westminster would be worse repre-
sented if it were less democratic.? Concei% ing that
no practical benefit would be derived tO, the country
from an .alteration in the system of eleclion, he
should oppose the motion. .:
Mr. Gooott concurred with those who thought
the question, one of tie most vital impot-tanee. If
the erOposition was acceded to, the test It Nmighr be
accompanied .by total ruin to the country. Ile saw
no good whatever that could arise from adopting it.
There never was a . the annals of. the
country when ar.grtater mass of honour, of integri-
ty, and of talent, were combined in this House.-,
Notwithstanding what he had heard on various oc,
casions, he. must deny that the House and the Peo-
ple are a't variance. The Hon. Baronet might con-
ceive himself a judge of the wishes and opinions of
the people by those he was in the habit of meeting
at the Crown and Anchor. lie (Mr. G ) must
allowed to form an opinion of his own Constituents,
who lived by the plough, who were not a Set of
manufaefured Patriots, like those at the Gown and
AnQhor Tavern; they titd not wish for Reform, and
therefore he should vote against the
.motion.

Mr. Witermacmo would have risen sootier, but
had expected 'some of the Right Hon. Gentlemen
on.the Treasury Bench would have preceded ht ti.--
The Member for Suffolk, who had jut sat down,
might• entertain-- his own opinions of his, consti-
tuents ; but would he compare them with the Hoo.
Baronet's, who were deemed the most enlightened
in the kingdom ? Why the Hon. Metnbee ba;l
chosen to call them a set o! mannfaifitired patriots
he 'did not know. Goo.ex denied the asser-
lion.] The Hon: Gentleman had misunderstood
him then. t he believed there was in :that part
of the country, where the Member for Suffulk„and
the Hon. Gentleman, 'one of the Members for a.
Cornish .Burgh, more of whit Mr. Burke called
" the shameful parts of the Constitution," than in
any other part. He regretted that his Hon. Friends
who preceded trim had, not only set their facei against •
Reform, but had stated theirAistrust of the advocates
of the system.. He deprecated the praelice,.9l ob-
jet-ling to liefOrm, because this wag not the proper
time, and asked, whether it Was not necessary,
when - the influence of the Crown in this
House had heel. exercised lately upon. the ques-
tion relating to Ireland ; and whether the'Crown,
and not the People, decided that question ?
(No, no!)—Would any one presume to maintain
the contrary ? Would they. say., that if the influence
Government had been exerted for the question,
—would they Veen con•end that the qnestion would
have been so decided ?:—(llear, (rear!) The deci-
sion was an instance of the influence of the. Crown.
(No, no !)—Gentleman opposite might deny the
assertion, bin upon dissection, he thought, it
might ,be demonstrated to be true. Yet the Right
Hon. Gentleman had, on bringing in his Bill on the
preceding night, told the House that his Adminis-
tration wfiS the most ',hums of any that had sway-
ed the affairs of the country for a length . of time. ,
The Hon. I_entlema'n defended his own consis•
teney on time .question of 'Reform, and maintained,
that as on the occasion of the American:war, though
the -people, as in the present war; were anxious to
begin it, at length they wished for its tertnination,
and the Government were obliged to give in. So
now they would be compelled to give in to the voice
of the people.
.Ailverting to the speech ot the Hi"m.
Baronet on a former night, he lamented that it
"i•hould have been made, because, from
,the conies-
,
riou of 50(114 of his friends), its tendency had the

•
effetcl of inauclni them to vote for the Bartaek.
Estimates, and conserptently to lay a fine upon the
country of 90,0001. He was happy that the Hots.
Baronet had titN night explained. He suppo,tea
the motion on the ground that the Congtittition of
Patliement
.originated with the People; and Wait
vested by them in the Sovereign, for tie .11torte
sprung from them, and the power of the Soveteigti
was to be tisl for the benefit of tie People—they,
therefore had time right of controuling the influence
of the Crown. It ' was the first time that a Minister;
after being repeatedly beaten, had kept his place ;
he was therefore justified hi a•serting that there wat"
an lucre tsing.-irifiuente of the Crown. • Reforin way
necessary, and ;be House refused to grant the mo..
lion.- The Kiblic would at retigth tie frea•rd.
Mr, CARTWRIGHT (we believe) thought that the
House had sufficient of democracy in its eunit,tql
tion, without reform. It represented, at Crtesenti
property of all kinds.
Mr. PONSONISY -saw-no Objeelion to the proposi-
tion of his- Honour-Able liiend; and should- atipre;
'sent support it. He thought it a more stile and
rational mode of obtaining teforni- wy 4111, than-
by a general 'and sweeping nieaure, the conse-
quences of which could not be 'Oprciaistd.. H 4
would not however go, the length Of adopting the
measure, without mature discussion and
deli- -
beration.

Sir JOHN NEWPORT' referred to a speech of tilt.
Noble 1,,,rd (Castlereagh), made in February, 1793,
in the Parliament of Ire RislieW that he wals a
friend to Reform, though uow he had changed his
sentiments.

Lord CASTLEREAGH was indisposed to dopt Are,
opinions just imputed to- friar. The opinions of
early life were not generally the Most corre& but
with resped to the Parliament ,of Ireland he held
the, same opinions, namely, that it was deficient not.
in the theoretical, but_ in. the praClical charaCrer of
representwiou,\and.therefore he looked to an- union
as the means of supplying the &lea. lie denied
that he had made up his mind as to the practica-
bility of reform in the English representation.
Mr. MARTEN (of Galway) expressed surprise at
wlvt he had heard from the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman (Mr. Ponsouby.) From what he had tot.
racily stated, he expected he would rather have
opposed the motion. The borough interest had
been most injurious to Ireland, and this had been
principally in the Righr Hon. Gentleman's hardy,
from whom it had Peet) purchased at an expence.of.
60,0001.

PONSONBY had -never said that the English
Constitution,' excellent as it was, might not be
proved, nor that abuses that might have crept into
it ought not to be correded. As to what the Hoe.
Gentleman had said' of the injury done to Ireland
by the Borough System, and- of 60,0001. having
been- paid to his family to wrest the Borotigh inte-
rest from them, the fa& was, that he, former.
ly had possessed but 'one Berough, and it was not
common to give 60;0001: for one Borough in Ire-.
land. He had alWiys thou:gilt the cp*Stion one of
tlie greatest moment, and one which ought to be
appreeched with the greatest delicacy.
• 'The Cl-.IANCELLOR of the ExcnEctusa-had never
been present at a debate in which.he was less antious:
to take a part, as the part which he should have been
disposei.•to take, had been sustained with great abi- • -
lity by the Right HOrl. Gentleman and the Honour..
able Gentlenirm opposite. He wished, however, to
corrett a misunderstanding, and consequent•rtisre.
presertration of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Whit-
brrad), Who had described him as hiving been, on
the preceding night, the panegyrist of hiS own Kt'.
rainietration ; as, having stated it to be the Nouosi yiT
gnrous and the most virtuous of Administrations,
and as having bestowed upon it many other superla.
tives.- He had been but in a vety small degree the
panegyrist of himself, as he only used any thing like
the expressions imputed to him when comparing it
with an Administration which he could assure the
Hun. Gentleman he had never been in the habit cif
extolling so highly, as to make it appear any thing
like a presumption of extraordinary merit, that toe
present Administration possessed greater vigour or
greater virtue. In thinking that uothing very ex-
traordinary was necessary to equal or surpass elee,
he-was not very singuler in his opinion, and he
believed the people themselves were rather turning,
that way: Of this the Noble Lord had given him a
little, testimony, as he admitted, that with all the
faults of the present feeble and unsuccessful Admi-
nistration, and with
_all the demerits of the Wale
cheren exeedit ion attached to them, th,,fy were pre-
ferred to the last splendid and vigorous and success-
ful and brilliant Administration. But -then it was
said that they were saved from a defeat on the Wel-
cheren quest ion, by the influence of the Crown.—
He begged to say, that in that very-session, and.pre-
vidus to that -vote, that. same House of Conimons
had refused to wait three days for information. upon
the subject ; and so far were they from being under
the influence of the' Crown, that Ministet., were
accordingly Out-voted on that question, and the
House got the information they called for at that
time, in opposition to the Administration. ' But me
Gentlemen opposite, fleshed with this advantage,
Went' rather too far. They called for an inquiry into
the Walcheren Expedition, which opened the eyes
of the House and of the public, and .hence the vote,
which .Parliament afterwards came to was to he ace-
counted for. An objedion, however, was t.ti,ed
against the individuals' who voted fur Government..
He however had ne.objedion to the lists of the ma-
jority and minority being disseCted, if they could •
be procured. If this were done, in order to leave,
.none who were biassed. by interest in favour of • Go. •
vermuent, all the,placemen mould be at once struck
off as a* dead seight. But if they struck off
from the - list all who were in possession of
places on the one side, he hoped they would, not
object to strike off all who were in expectation of
placeS on the other: And they would give him leave
to couple with this consideration a request, that it
might be remembered that a place could be possess•
ed but by one, but it could be expealed more
than one. Let them then take away those who
po4sessed places on the one side, and who expetted ,
them on-the other, and he would be pettedly Willi g
to go to a division with the rest. It had been rm
puted to' him as an offence, that he had kept in'
office after being•in a minority, while it was Con.•
>tended, that the influence of the CrOwn was
greater during his administration, than it liad been
in any other.. He contendedetbe fa 9f his haieg
been in minorities, %yeas proof that the influence of ,
the-Crywn -had not increased in proportion to the