The Sun.
London, England, 1823-03-04 00:00:00

"West Indies, and a just classification of the qualities of East 1
India sugars:
" And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray."
Laid on the table.
Mr. WIIITMORE then gave notice, that on Wednesday,
the 19th inst., he meant to bring the whole subject before the
House, upon a motion for an,equalization of the duties upon
East and Vest India sugars.
Lord A. lIAMIMON presented a petition from George
and Alexander Young, complaining of some ill treatment from
the Magistrates of Inverness, and intimated his intention of sub-
mitting the subject of complaint to the House on a subsequent

on the said Capital Stock, upon or at any time,after the said sth -
day of April, shall cease tobe !ssued, or to be charged upon the
said Consolidated Fund.
" That it is the opinion of this Committee, that upon the
sth day of April, 1823, or as soon after as the same van be.
prepared, an account shall be laid before Parliament showing
the total amount of the Unredeemed Funded and Outstanding
Unfunded Debt in Exchequer Bills, unptorided for, of the
United Kingdom, of the said sth day of April ; together with
the annual charge attending the same. And there shall from
thenceforth be set apart and issued, at the receipt of the Ex-
chequers of Great Britain and Ireland, out of the said Con!
solidated Fund, to be.placed to the account of the Commis-
sioners the the Redution of the National Debt, the annual
sum of 5,000,0001. to be applied by them towards the Reduc-
tion of the, National Debt of the United Kingdom, and'which
said sum shall be charged upon the said Consolidated Fund,
and be issued by equal quarterly payments ; the- first quar-
terly payment to be charged upon the said Consolidated I. und
on the sth day of April, 1823.
" That it is the opinion of this Committee, that it is expe-
dient that so much of the Acts of the 53i1 and' With' years dins
late Majesty, relating to the redemption of the National Debt,
as require that whenever an amount of capital funded debt of
Great Britain and Ireland respectively should have been trans-
ferred to the said Commissioners, as should be equal to the
whole capital, and should produce an interest or yearly divi-
dend, equal in amount to the whole annual charge, in perpetual
annuities of each loan contracted since_l7B6, t4iat a certificate

-occasion.
The LORD ADVOOIIITE said that the case of the peti-
tioners was entirely unknown to him ; he would, however, tn.
.quire into it; in the mean time he bore testimony to the re.
specfability of the Magistrates of Inverness.—The petition was
laid on the table.
Lord A. HAMILTON gave notice, that he wool& submit a
motion respecting Scotch .lurtes on the 424th of March.
Colonel I)AVTES said, that as several gentleman took an
interest in a petition which he had from Mr. Allen, a Military
gentlgratm, he gave notice of his intention of presenting it on
WeduesdaY nrxt. -
SUPPLY ._DEDUCTION OF THE NATIONAL
DEBT.

On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE.
'QUER the House went:4l.lo a Committee of Supply, to take
into its consideration the Acts for the reduction of the Na•

• 7
and declaration thereof should be made by the said Commis-
sioners of the amount of the public debt, to which such certifi-
cate and declaration should relate, should from time to time be
deemed to be wholly satisfied and discharged, and an equal
amount of capital stock standing in the names of the said Com-
missioners, should be considered to be redeemed, and should
from time to time be cancelled, be repealed.
" That it is the opinion of thii Committee, that no capital ,
stock, or annuities for terms of years, which after.the sth day
of April, 1823, shall be placed in the names of the said Com-
missioners, in the books of the Bank of England, or of the
South Sea Company, or of the Bank of Ireland, sludl be can-
celled (save and except the stock placed in their names, for the
redemption of the said tax) until The interest of the debt, re-
deemed by the said Commissioners, by the application of the
. said sum of 5,000,0001. and of the growing interest thereof,
shall, together with the said sum of 5,000,0001., have accumu-
lated to a sum the annual amount whereof ahall not be less than
the one-hundreth part of the then existing un.redeemed funded
debt, and outstanding unfunded debt in ,Exchequer Bills, un-
providedfor, of the United Kingdom taken together ; and that
any capital stock, which shall be placed in the names of the
said Commissioners on account of the Sinking Fund, or furibar
purchase of Life Annuities, after the said Sinking Fund shall
amount to the one-hundreth part of the said unredeemed fund-
ed debt and unfunded debts, taken together as aforesaid, shall
be liable to be cancelled at such times, and in such manner as
Parliament shall from time to time direct.
" That it is the opinion of this Committee, that a new and
separate account shall be raised and kept in the books of the
Goi,ernor and Company of the Bank of,England, of the sums
already.given, by way of donation or,beciliest, towards reducing
the national debt, and of all sums which shall hereafter be
given or bequeathed for the like purpose, and the interest orl
dividends which shall accrue on all stock arising therefrom Khali
be applied in the purchase of public annuities composing the
national debt, for the purpose of fulfilling the directions of the
person or persons giving or bequeathing the same, and to no
ofher purpose whatever.
" That it is the Opinion of this Committee, that the annual
expence of the establishment in Cheat Britain for the reduction
of the national debt shall be charged upon the consolidated fund
of the United Kingdom of Cheat Britain and Ireland.
" That it is the opinion of this Committee, that the expences
of the establishments necessary for,carrying into execution An
Act of the 48th year of -the reign of his late Majesty, for en-
abling. the Commissioners of the National Debt to grant Life
Annuities, and of two Acts made in the 39th and 54th years of
the reign of his said Majesty, for Redemption of the Lund
Tax,' shall be charged upon the said Consolidated Fund.
" That it is the opinion of this Committee, that it is expe-
dient that the sacral Acts for the Reduction of the National
Debt should be altered and amended."
Mr. 14EYCESTER could not concur in the Resolutions.—

tionarDebt.
The. Order was accordingly read, and the House, having re.
solved itself into a Commtttee
The CHANCELLOR of 'the EXCHEQUER said, tha
as the object of his addressing the Committee was to propose
a sexier of Resolutions recommended by the Committee of
last year,
.he flattered himself they would not meet with any
opposition. He nevertheless, thought it better to preface
them with a few observations, explanatory of the view taken
by his Majesty's Government of the subject to which they n-e-
-ferzed. of that subject it was impossible not to see the un-
importance and the difficulty. It was difficult, principally from
the acknowledged fact, that whatever the talents which had at
different times been exercised on the subject, whatever the
zeal and resolution of those who had examined them, cape.
rience had told us that their plans had often met with interrup-
nion, embarrasetnent, and counter-action. This had induced
many persons to infer that it was altogether useless to fbllow
up the plan ; but these previous failures afforded, in his mind,.
no reason fur not endeavouring to effect the iniportant object.—
The argument of those who thought so, would, if generally
applied; lead to the paralyzing of the energies of every coon-
try. .It'veauld apply even to the reduction of taxation ; for if
he, when pressed to a reduction of taxation were to say, " Do
not ask for the reduction; because there is no doubt a time
will come when they will be wanted again," his answer would
be deservedly scouted. There was, huwever,one inference which
Parliament ought to draw from the past. They would see
that if it was difficult, from the known mutability of human
affairs to calculate much on the future, it was particularly ne-
cessary for us to be vigilant in the examination of our income
and expenditure, in order that we might secure a surplus, to-
watds the discharge of debt; to observe a firm, but modetate
line of polity ; to avoid in engaging in those conflicts which
rendered the getting of such a surplus difficult; at the same
time not'fbrgetting, that if aggression required to be repressed,
if the national honour rendered a conflict indispensable, it be-
came the duty of the people to make every sacrifice necessary
to the attainment of those important and desirable objects.—
(Hear, hear, hear !)---He had before observed, that the plans
devised for dvantageously appropriating our surplus revenue,
bad become difficult in consequence of' the failure of previous
plane on the same subject. To judge, however, properly of
those piens', it was necessary that we should consider the eire
cumatances attending them ; and he thought a fair review of
thou circumstances entitled him to say that be 'need not antici-
pate.any uneOrmauntable difficulty which would attend the sub-
ject in ordinary times. The circumstances which almos:, imme-
diately followed the first idoptioneof Mr. Pitt'a plan respecting
the Sinking Fund, were of so extraordinary a character, and
events followed each other with,such rapidity, and in such dis-
order, that human calculation was baffled, and it was scarcely
possible to form an accurate opinion on the. merits of a plan
necessarily affected by those circumstance% and those events.
Fur the take of human happiness, lie trusted they would never
be witnessed again ; and he hoped that, if we steadily applied
,outtelvee to the obtaining of a surplus revenue, we should not
meet any nature interruptions. Ile would, in the first place,
examine the state of our debt, on a comparison of the preeent
time with that at which it was at its highest. This he did be.
thOse whose opinions were unfavourable to the sinking
fund had said that they were not to expect any reduction of
tuerdwas as to our debt. Since the year ltll6, at which
time our debt was at its highest, there . bad been an actual
diminution of debt : not great undoubtedly ; hurt it' was an
actual diminution ; and must, necessarily, have arisen from a
surplus revenue. On the sth of January, 1816,. the whole
funded debt was 816,311,9401., and the unfundfd 48,511,3081.,
making a total of 064,823,328/. The charge for the funded
was upwards of thirty millions, and that for the unfonded
2,100,0004 On the sth of January, 1823, the whole funded
debt was 796,.530,144/., and the unfunded was 43,528,6211.
The charge was, in respect of the funded debt, 211,100,000/;
and in respect of the unfunded; 1,162,7624 So' that, on the
comparison of the two years he had taken, it would he found
there had been a reduction in the funded debt of 19,781,798/o
and in the unfunded of 4,984,725/. ; being a total of 21,7611,5211.
This, from the year 1816, gave an average of three millions
and a half for each year. This reduction would have been
considerably larger but for the mode which had last year been
adopted of converting the Navy five per cents. into four per
Cents., and which had materially, though beneficially, affected
the capital. This difference was so great, that it might be
safely taken rue ten millions for the last year. If this were
broutflit into the calculation, the diminution would not be less
than .15 millions. But if' the charge were considered, for this
was' the most material to be looked at, on a comparison of the
same twp-yeers, it would be found that the diminution in the
.411101.111 t of charge exceeded three millions. Was it possible,
then, for airy man to take the paper he (the Cnaneellor of the
Exchequer) held in his hand and say it was hopeless to attempt
to reduce the National Debt He thought not; and he trusted
this Reuse would' not consider it Unreasonable in him to ask the
House to continue a plan which had already vielded sonic ad.
vantage. In the hope that the House would' receive it favour-
ably he ahould propose Resolutions, stating in illeitinice that
we ought assume the Sinking Fund to start at five millions. It
might be, and indeed it Nei keen said, " Vey propose the pare
ticular sum of five millions?" Certainly there was no magic in
this partieular sum, nor was there any reason for taking that in
preference to any other. It was about (ether more perhaps
than). the average of the excess of expenditure; and it was in
conformity with the reeolution of that •lliaise, passed in the
year 1810. The first Resolution would, be for applying these
live millions to the Sinking Fund. He proposed that Many
portions of the different Acts for regulating the Sinking Fond
should he repealed, The Act now in existence made the no.
mina) amount of the Sinking Fund about 15 or 10,000,000/.;
'that lie thonght it was perfectly unnecessary to preserve this
Machinery.—((Theere.)--He proposed also, that the money
should be paid to the Commiseionere quarterly ; that the in.
terest should also be received by the Commissioners, and put out
to accumulate at compound interest. In this respect he fully
-concurred in the opinions of the Hon. Member for Taunton
(Air. Baring). Ti would he better, he thought, to let the sum
accumulate until it had become somewhat considerabl, rather
than remit it in such sums, that the remission would be al.
roost imperceptibly felt. This accumulation, he would mug-
gest, should continue until it should reach an amount Nitta
to one per cent. upon the whole amount of the debt. The
time at which this might be expected to take place was, of
courac uncertain ; but if the revenue continued to improve,
and expenditure to diminish, there was a fair prospect
that the desired amount would he brought up within a rea-
sonable time. It would occur to the House that it was in the
power of Parliament to improve the plan and avail it of
any future opportunity winch might occur the promoting the
accumulation. He was not aware diet it was necessary for
him to go' into the subject at any greater length. He conceived
that he was entitled on all hands, to assume that a Sinking Fund
was a wise thing, provided we could Maintain it ; and five mil-
lions he apprehended war, not an unreasonable sum to corn-
mence With. Ile was convinced thaothe House, by acquiescing
in the Resolutions, would confera service on the country; and
enable' it to maintain its high station, in.which, though it Might.
have occasionally raised the' envy, had always commanded
the adniiration of surrounding' nations.—(lleer, bear !)—The
Right [lon. Gentleman concluded by 'moving—
' That it is the opinion of this Conimittec, that the payment
of all sums of money which now are charged upon and imitable
out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great
'Britain and Ireland, to the Commiselonera for the reduction of
the National Debt, should, upon and after the sth day of April,
4023, cease and detertnine.
" That it is the opinion of this Continittee; that all Capital
Stock and Annuities for terrrre'ne lean (Nave and except the
Capital Stock arising 'from donatidtf4 and bequests, towards re-
ducing the National Debt), which, on the sth day of April,
182 n, shall stand in the natimet of tire Commissioners for the
-Reduction of the National-Debt, in the books of the Governor
and Company of the Bank of England ; or of the South Sea
Company ; or tlie Bank of Ireland, either on account of the
.Sinking )'undeh) for the purchase of Life Annuities, should,
front and after The sth day of April, 1023, be cancelled in the
books of the Old Banks, and South Sea Company, respectively ;
etridnhe interest or dividends, which would have been payable

He' thought they exhibited the House as callous and calcula
ing, when it ought rather to chew a sympathy for the sufferinge
of the country. He was of opinion that additional relief ought
to be affinded to the agricultural interest. The Sinking Fund
he looked upon as a financial folly. It went on the mistaken,
principle that the purse of the country was the best treasury of
the. State. At all events, whatever they might be in principle,
they were inapplicable to the present crisis. He would really
ask the country Gentlemen who complained so much of dis-
tress, whetti.T they were ready to worship the Sinking Fund--
to fall down before it, and treat it as immortal ? The threa-
tening attitude of France had been alluded to as a reason for
maintaloing the Sinking Fund; but this was a temporary cir-
cumstance, and rather than support the Sinking Fund, he
would, if necessary, vote in favour of that sinew of war, the
Property'Vax.
Mr. ROBERTSON thought the Houie was not
,alive to
the true situation of the country. Referring to the Sinking
Fund, proposed by Mr. Pitt in 1786, he observed that the,
more we paid to the Sinking Fund, the larger the debt be-
came. '% had borrowed a small sum, and had engaged to
pay, in return a large one. Besides, the Sinking Fund was
not efficient. Seventy years ago, this country had borrowed
money. at 3 per cent. ; but we were now paying for the
borrowing of it at 5 per cent. During the last war u e had
borrowed on worse terms than ever ; and in support of his
assertion, be would refer the House to the years 1013, 1814,
and 1817. In the year 1813, we had borrowed 27 millions,
and engaged tb return 411. In 1814 we had borrowed 24 mil-
lions, and engaged to return 32 ; and in 1815 w& had bar-
rowed 36 millions, and engaged to return 80.. The funds,
on this last -occasion, were at 54 ; and the contractors were
allowed a bonus, reducing the amount on each nominal
hundred to 51/, till. 4d. Wae it possible to suppose,the credit
of Government could be the same, under these circum-
stances, as it had been in former years ? The only dif-
ference between these transactions and those of individuals
was, that a Government was enabled to proceed with them
more extenaively. He had to offer a few remarks on the ob-
servations made by Hon. Members in the course of Friday last.
Allusion had been made to America : America had originally
borrowed at seven and eight per cent., but in the course of the
last war had authorised the President to borrow at six. A dif.
ficulty had occurred in the getting of the loan on these terms,
and the President had raised the sum required by an issue of
Treastny Bills. France had recently been obliged to borrow,
at from eight to ten per cent. Russia had been quoted but
such was her regard to faith, that out of a debt of. 43 millions,.
site paid interest only on 26. We had Imposed ott the conntry
an annual debt of nity.seven millions, which was three times
as great as the whole debt of America. By keeping up a
Sinking Fund, we were increasing the burdens of the country,
though we lowered the rate of the nominal interest. By keeping
up no Sinking Fund we lowered the public burthens, but in-
creased the rate of interest. He was aware that there was dif-
ficulty in deciding upon the adoption of either of these mea-
sures ; but, as he thought the low interest preferable, he should
at once decide in favour of the Sinking. Ilia Ile had early
in the Session given notice of a motion to do away With the
paying of nearly twice as much as that which was borrowed.—
During the war, with respect to the Sinking Fund, it was iinil-
ned that we were paying off us fast as we were borrowing.
This had now been admitted to be a mistake, and such engage-
ments as we had made under that mistake oughti not to be ful-
filled. The lineation ought to be, how much would have been
given to the Fundholder, had the borrower been aware of the
circumstance? :*Fhe -monied men of the city knew very well
how to play their parts ; and our different Chancellors of the
Exchequer, from their education and their pursuits, were never
a match fur diem. The stock *jobbers and the people were
never fairly matched in the making of money bargains. The
former were men trained to acute calculation and the indul-
gence of every selfish passion. lie, of course, did not allude to
the Fundholdera generally, He meant the great monied men
of the capital who gained by the injury of the country. They
haul heard from the Chancellor ,of the Exchequer that we could
not go to war but in an extreme case • but if the plin which he
should propose were to be adopted, he had no doubt the situa-
tion of the eountry would be much more advaritageoui.
Mr. lIUME said he had heard the statement of the Chan-
cellar of the Exchequier with considerable surprise; for it Cer-
tainly was at variance with some of the documents which had
been produced. Thome which he had referred to he trusted the
Right Honourable Gentlemen would lay on the table, and
cause to be printed.- lie trusted also, thet the Right Honour-
able Gentleman would agree to go into a Committee similar
to that which he (Mr. Hume) had proposed last Session on
this subject. The Right Honourable Gentleman had taken
the year 1816 for one of his years of comparison ; but it
was impossible to judge of that, year ; for the Irish Exchequer
was not united to the English until the year 1817. As far as
the documents already produced went, the diminution did not
exist at all. The amount of capital upon which the Right Hon.
Gentleman had laid some stress, was of no consequence. The
Rt. Hon. Gentleman had, however, taken the year 1016, and com-
paring it with the present, had said the amount of expenditure
was less in the latter than in the former. But iii the year 1816
the charge was more than it had been in the year preceding, by
between two and 3,000,000/. There had, he well'remembered,
been a mistake of 2,000,000/. in the casting up, which was
fairly admitted by the Treasury, when he applied for an, ex.
planation of the account. With regard to the same year of
1816, the then Chancellor of the Exchequer had said there were
large arrears due in respect of the preceding year, so that it
was altogether unfair to take the year 1816 as a point of corns

parison. The year 1817 would have been a iliirer year ; or the of what they would do in
countrya oifnthanoseuncasusuesalwshitiuchataioren.likTelhyetroe
average of the three preceding,
In this way it would be found that the debt was not larger were Gentlemen in that
.1 louse who proposed to do away with
and the three following years. arise, and place the _
Ile would ask them
sinking fund wait erroneous and delusive. In the year 1718, they would propose to go
than it was at present. The whole system, holever, of the the Sinking Fund ; and it
ewnaswiiittcieunntibietn.t on them to show how
and in his opinion,
nothing was
when Sir ltobert Walpole established a -sinking fund, the in- to suppose, for instance,- that the income should full ate the
terest was six per cent.; and it had been in the following amount of four or five millions,
opits
pinion
was founded;.
e 514
caltugether deesd
ttroo
yfoedu.r, three
pariiiede alsfp,
eaankdintghroeef
iatiitehnadit
wwealsl
sminonre
olifketlhyetvoiehwasppuepno.n
wlileaciwiotuhlids
t
observed, "that it did little in time of 'peace, and nothing in would be found that he was correct in stating, that neither:
time of war." From the year 1793 to 1817, our revenue had in the metropolis, nor in the great towns, or even villages,
been,l,loo millions, and our expenditure 1,300 millions; be had the price of labour fallen in _proportion to the fall in the
meant independent of loans, for which we had added altogether price of provisions. He spoke of the artisans and workmen in
six hundred millions to the national debt since the year 1792, the higher branches of the mechanics ; for he did not mean to
lie assured the Honourable Member for Taunton (Mr. Baring) assert this of the labourers who ploughed or sowed. This high
that if he,would examine the various accounts, he would find rate of wages had been maintained by various causes, and,
his (Mr. Hume's) statement to be correct, and his suggestions amongst others, not the least—the combination amongst the
to be practicable. When loans were made during the war, the workmen. Taking' the fact, however, without troubling them.
Contractors were 'allowed several months to make their pay- selves about the cause, let them look at the consequence. The
ments, although they were entitled to their dividends from a labourer could bey the same quantity of bread anti meat which
time preceding the actual contract. Thirty or forty millions he enjoyed before the fall of prices, with half what he paid be-
of the debt had been contracted in this way
.in bonuses.— fore, and with the remainder of his money he naturally laid it
The whole system of borrowing money •to raise the market out in gin and tobacco, and other exciseable articles. Thus they
had been shewn by experience to be erroneous and injurious, had an easy solution of the phenomenon of the flourishing re-
Ile considered that 324 millions of 3 per cent. Stock' had been venue. But supposing bread and meat to become double their
lost to the country by the fallacious mode of funding which present price next year, they would then have a falling off of
had been acted upon by the Government for the last twenty 3or 4 millions in the revenue. lie wished then to know what
yearse Now otherwise could -680 millions have been added to Honourable Gentlemen could do under such circumstances. It
our debt when the cash surplus of expenditure overour revenue was very easy and very attractive for Gentlemen to fall in
had been under 2111) millions ? It was, in his mind, nonsense to with the. popular side Of this question, and raise a cry for
talk of Public Credit requiring that a Sinking Fund should be the reduction of burthens. But he trusted to seeing a re-
kept up, and that Public Credit could not be maintained with- spectable opposition to such doctrines. He would call upon
out applying surplus revenue to the extinction of the debt. these Gentlemen to suppose another emergency also likely in
But it was necessary. to have a clear idea of what Public our present situation to arise. He meant the necessity of armed
Credit was, fowvery few people agreed upon the meaning of interference in some quarter of the world, whether it came
the terms. Public Credit, in his view of it, was no more than from the shores of the Mediterranean or elsewhere. How then
,private credit.—( Hear !)—lf a merchant had been found to pay would they propose to succeed with their Finances cracked in
all his• bills as they became due, his credit was good : and the manner required ? There was but one 'of two ways to
what more did the public creditor require than that his annuity choose—they must tax the country, or borrow. Now nothing
should be paid when it became due: It was of no use to talk could be more fatal to a country than unsteadiness in the sys-
Of a period for paying off these creditors ; theirs were an. tem of taxation._(Hear, hear !)--Under a state of uncertainty,
nuities in perpetuity ; and if their interest were paid, public whether an article would rise in price this year, or go down the
credit was good. It was with this view that he complained next, no trader could know what lie .was about.—( Hear !)
of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer's system of running What then was the other way left to be adopted ? He should
up the Funds against himself ; of raising the price of undoubtedly say use the Itinditig system—burrow now, and
Stocks to die great loss of the public. A high price of then they would be in a state to repay when called upon.--.
Stock, lie was convinced, was -very injurious to the country ; But he would pat It to the House, with what face could they
and that, es connected with the late Chancellor of the Exches go to borrow money, when the moment they did not want it
quer's system, he shogld be able to show. In the year 1317, any more, they.began to cry down the principles of good faith,
the revenue amounted to 296 millions—the expenditure to which called upon them to provide for the repayment of it?-
288 millions;- leaving a surplus of exactly 7,268/. instead of When a cry was raised for . " equitable adjustment," but
rive asevasehen stated. With this surplus the Chan- which might more appropriately be styled conrosient adjust-
'. cellor of the Exchequer ordered the Commissioners of the men/.--(Mleer, hear, hear !)—He (lid not apply these obwe-
, Sinking Fund to purchase stock to the amount of 13,6911,0001. vations to his lionoerable Friend the Member for Aher-
stock. This -was done with, only seven millions. In the fol. aeon, for he had always deprecated any breach of public
lowing year fourteen millions were invested—the next, nine
.faith ; but how did lie mean to uphold public credit without a
millions—in 1820 and 1421, four millions were invested—in surplus revenue ? Who did he anticipate should lend their
1822, four millions also were invested. During the whole pe- money, when they boldly proclaimed they never meant to re-
lied he lied mentioned; .16,276001. had been invested, to do pay ?„-(Hear, hear I)—True it was, they had seen the credulity
which 9,700,0001. has been borrowed, the Sinking Fund fur. of the nation led into all sorts of money bubbles of late • and
nishing the ether thirty-six millions. If ever, therefore, a lie did not mean to deny that some poor old women of Bath or
Sinking Fund appeared' in the light of a palpable delusion, it of Ireland, whose worn-out faculties would not admit of their
was here. He eplored any thing which had the effect as this following his Hon. Friend, the Member for Aberdeen, in his
false system had, of sending our capital away to the assist. calculations, and who, therefore, might be so dull as to think
ante of Russia, Prussia, or any of die other Powers of Eu. that no one would ever propose to borrow, who did not mean to
rope. It was the boast of tl.ese States, that they made-Eng. repay : such characters might forward their money. It was
land pay their subsidies during the' war, and Tenn her capital certainly possible to .find blind itleots enough to lend on such
during peace. The whole amount saved in the reduction of security.—(hear, hear, hear!)—Setting; aside the impropriety
the Five per Cents., be maintained, was lost by one interest, of promulgating such abominable principles in Parliament,
and paid to another! The deduction which had been stated, and proposing a system which could only lead to swindling,
to have been made in the public 'debt up to 1822, by the it was very well to talk of the relief such a course might afford,
Chancellor of the Exchequer, he was convinced, could but he undertook to say that it was impossible for any man
not, fairly be made opt; and it was to show that he to point out a system of Finance for a country, which should
wished for a Committee, whidi he hoped would not be be founded on the principle of paying oft' in time of peace
refused him, to examine the papers upon which it was what was burrowed in time of' wow—(Heer, hear, hear !)
fitunded. How the Right Honourable Gentleman could say if they consented to do away the funding system, they would
there was a clear surplus of live millions, when he admitted refuse the aid of what .was a most important and efficacious
that be must sell twomillions to establisli it, lie corild not un- engine upon all occasions of difficulty. He was sure the House
demand. lie entreated him to look at the transactions of would see the propriety of standing by the general principles
1813 and 1815, when money was borrowed at 531. per hundred, which they had seen had guided his Majesty's Ministers in the
anti then show why they were to be called on to make liar. maintenance and application of the Sinking Fund. As it had
gains of a different nature when public credit was as good us been shewn that the Sinking Fund was really only three mils
ever. If these Resolutions were meant to keep up the Sinking lions instead of five ; and it Way admitted by other Gentlemen
Fund at five millions, lie should say that they were incensed- that one or two millions Ought to remain in the nature of a
ent with the liberal principles professed by, the Right lion. Sinking Fund, it would be seen that between the two, the re.
Gentleman. He had frankly admitted that the system of mender to be applied to the reduction of taxation was so
the Sinking Fund had been a delusion, and yet he gravely small, 'as scarcely to be worth notice. lie would abstain
asked them to do the (nune—to borrow with one hand and pay from adverting to the subject of the change of bcted in the-
with another—to sell one stock to give to the Commissioners value of the currency, farther than to say that the greater part
to buy up another. Although he plight wish tosee the Debt re_ of the evils now suffered by the country were attributable
duced, he certainly did not wish to see it attempted by. such to it. He hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would re-consi.
means. The question was, whether five millions Sinking Fund der that part of his Resolutions which treated of the Long
or Surplus Revenue were really necessary to keep up public Annuities, and which he thought approitclied to the exploded
credit. It appeared that a Sinking Fund of only ten millions system of borrowing with one hand and paying with the other;
had enabled them to tin this for many years past—anti this upon if' that were done away with, then lie should say the Finance
the confession of the Right Hon. Gentleman. If this then were system of the Government was palpable to the understanding
:true, in the present state of the country, he must say they had of every man, woman, and child in the country who could
-no right to do any thing with a surplus but remit taxes. They read.—( Hear, hear !)
.ought to repeal five millions of taxes, and even then the Chan. Mr. T. WILSON strongly deprecated the system of argu.
calor of the Exchequer would have upwards of one million ment followed by the Hon. Member for Aberdeen, which he
surplus left out of the portion of the taxes remitted which would would always be ready to expose whether lie met with it in
come into the Exchequer. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer that House or elsewhere. That lion. Member never ceased to
had not been alloWed to put on three millions of taxes in 1819 chew the folly, and he believed even the iniquity of borrowing
the present expenditure would not have been kept up to the in time of war, and paying off ip time of peace.—He thought,
present period.--(Hear !).-:_lf the House gave the Govern- instead of that they ought to relieve the agriculturists, and not
meat the surpluses they asked for, the only consequence apply their Surplus Revenue to a Sinking Fund, But it was
would be an extravagant expenditure. As to these surpluses not the landholder, but the monied manl from whom they bor-
being necessary to keep up public credit, let them look for rowed, and he was convinced that maintaining public faith
how many years they had gone on borrowing, when of course would assist the agriculturists, though not so directly as re.
there could be no surplus, and yet public credit had been moval of taxes. All the change lie desired to be made in the
sustained all the time. Ile should say, then, leave not one Sinking Fund was, hat the Surplus Revenue should be applied
shilling in the hands of the Treasury—he would leave no to make an extinction of debt instead of a Sinking Fund.
power to issue Exchequer bills to any !amount, to cover the Mr. D. GILBERT hoped the present Chancellor of the
Miscalculation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer when die Exchequer would be continued in his office for a long period,
quarterly dividends became payable—in short, he would leave and hewas sure he spoke the setiments of the great bulk of the
nothing for the. Minister to grasp at, and apply when he country in saying so. He spoke thus because he had witnessed
pleased, to what purposes he pleased. If they were resolved with so much pleasure what he had already done in his office.
they should have a sinking fund, let it be.a real one. But he All that lie wished,to say to him was, that he hoped, should he
should say, let there be none, until taxes were:repealed to ever have occasion to make loans, lie would always reserve out
that
.extent which Would place the depressed interests on a of them a certain per tentage to linen a sinking 'fund. He had
leVel with the others—then, if they would, Jove them a sink_ the misfortune to belong to that class of agriculturists whose
ing fund. He knew that his llonoutable Friend, the Member situation at present all joined in deploring, and although he
for Taunton (111 r.. Baring),' would say, that it' there was no was not so romantic as to look Onward to speedy recovery, lie
Sinking Fund, the Minister would have no accumulation of was not so deluded as to think that the remission of one or two
money. to make use of in case of emergency. But he begged millions of taxes would have the effect of administering relief
to remind his Hon. Friend, that he could not have both. It tantamount to their Ibexes.
was impossible to have a Sinking Fund and Fund of the na. Mr. BENNET called uPon the House to consider, that if
lure his lion. Friend desired to see exist. With regard to the the vote proposed m to the that night psestd there was an end
resources of the country, he was not one of those who took ti of the remission of taxation for this year. He could neither
-desponding view ; but he was principally cheered by seeing agree with the Hon. Member for Taunton (Mr.. Baring), nor
that; under. ll the mismanagement, they were still doing so the honourable Member for Bodmin (Mr. Gilbert), that the
well. lie should take the sense of the House upon the question, remission of five millions, or two millions of taxes, would not
of the Sinking Fund, in order to determine whether the House he bailed as efficient relief. He would removethe Beer Tax—
was content to leave three millions in the hands of the Minister. a tax to oppress the poor, and pauper the rich. If the Surplus
Mr. BARING was anxious to offer a few observations, in. Revenue were only 500/. instead of five millions, he would say
reference to what had fallen front this lion. Friend, the Mem- apply it in remission of taxes. If they left it as a Sinking
her for Aberdeen. lie was most ready to agree with his F in the hands ofithe Chancellor of .the Exchequer, they
lion. Friend in all lie had said about the fallacy of the Sinking would see him as they had seen his predecessor, put his hand
Fund, as it had been exhibited in mount' by the late Chan- upon it, to make up the deficiencies of his own mismanage-
cellor of the Exchequer ; but when be came to apply his sign ment ; or, perhaps, to follow the other half the Hon. Member
ments to the abolition of that Fund, he was unable to go along fur .Taunton's plan. ,
with him, How also his lion. Friend meant to establish, that Mr..l. small could not allow his lion. Friend's (Mr.
every year that they paid off debt they were going backwards, Bennet's) speech to pass without one or two observations—
he could not conceive. When his lion. Friend applied die word at the same time he begged to say that no one in that House
false to the Sinking Fund during the war lie agreed with him; gave his Honourable -Friend mein for the purity of motive
butelien he apprehended they could not haye a real one. At which he knew actuated him, more than lie did. The difficulty
the eanie time he must observe that shere might be something which the Committee had to contend with, he thought, was to
said fur a fictitings Sinking Fund in dine of war. For how. have a clear.notion of what was really meant by public credit.
ever useless and invaluable it might appear in the eyes of some This was most essential to their welfare; and, therefore, to ht
Gentlemen to take any pains to sustain. public credit now understood. -116'beliered chit good. management was news.
that we wonted no money, yet in. time of war that' public nary to public credit, unit that 10 or 12 per cent. had been lost
credit was valuable to the country:—(llear,hear!)—lgo much to the public by mm isunagement, The nextehing he considered
doubted whether public credit'llad not been'better maintains essential to public credit wsei economy. Ile, for one, was
ed during the war by borrowing 35 millions when .30 millions as much impressed with the distrees of the agriculturist as his
only were wanting, and making a nominal Sinking rund of Hon. Friend.. lie was also a friend-0 the principle of a real
the rest, than if that course had 110 t been resorted to, it screed Sinking Fund, and on-the same principle diet he wished to
to keep ethic the market—to give currence, to stock, and that relieve the agriculturist, he supported this fund. For, as lie
was credit. He would not go so far as to say that this hypo- had shown on a -Conner occasion, the agricultural interest was
theek was ntade out to demonstration, but certainly it was that which would seer earliest upon the fuilure of public
clearly proved to be otherwise. lie agreed with his Honoura. credit. The Funding System, arid Sinking; Fund had b
een
the Friend that great lose lied been sustained by the errors in originated by thou, find followed by every other state almost
the funding system ; but be could riot agree' that it was equal in the world. Not only large, but also small States hud
imi-
eohuesoindr tit a
v muchth
e
to whet: he represented it. He also concurred with hitn toted them. And were they then to be the first to abandon
ld
in hoping that the Chancellor of tlwi
exrcHl.teguneur
awnodupi day not ittaggti.iistshinteeyfueipTilaidttsla,ii tlle!hienldifnanulrleN
ttogtanlitserssot
oeattikso.e:itinitintile.?
fall into the same error of borrowing
with another. He also joined him in censuring the late chem. any thing done which should have the efftrueet of sinking 'retie
calor of the exchequer for representing. the Surplus- to be En 1
greater than it really was. He did not wish to, say any thing must pernicious effects to the country, and to the landed inte.
of that Noble Lord which might militate against the respect lie ,rest especially.
thought the House ought pause
entertained for his personal character ; but he must Shy that the Mr. II 'lair arid Mr. BARINO mutually explained.
.greaten before bweitiOteriet
tiitteppaussbeidieaerreedsoiltourtiointatT Ibilecelinweeenctustotninaeditertniliosenekltssawrsseto.
policy be acted upon in that respect was something like the The LORI) MAYOR
ehottnetkaertaPpPoelaireY
vulgar vanity vweuni.ty olifepeoeerptleeitiltoy
,ntlitenkneghtthielt their income
tleavour to make the Surplus appear five millions, when, in rea- curity through the last thirty years.
lity, as his Hon. Friend had distinctly shewn, it was only three Mr. ItICARDO declared it to be,' opinion, that
He did wish that the Hight Hon. Gentleman would cultural interest had sun' ed but little ni"`
at
the
a-
-
er by the restoration of the
do away with that part of the system of his predecessor, and currency. -
lay out the money in Long Annuities. But a' question had The Resolution was then agreedeo
been raised wilt:titer a surplus at all were of any great moment. Mr. HUME objected to the al
teration of time which the
Gentlemen took up tide view and raised this question as though accounts would be made up if the pre 1 R
ini
it were matter which concerned one interest and one class more carried. He wished to know if the. Chancellorsent f tnE
were
than another—as if the House ought to legislate for one interest mier intended to give up die hu ° •
mbug of the two millions con-
in the State inure than for another; and as if it concerned One fleeted with the halt:pay annuities. -lle need it to be his
interest more titan another, that their affairs ehould be soundly purpose to submit to the Committee, an
luntion ded s
managed ! Above all, in his opinion, it concerned that class to be inexpedient to maintain a Suakin Fuof an"
it
which must Stand by the country in all vicissitudes anti all ent. 3,000,0094, and desirable to a ' g n more then
ppropriate any surplus revenue
ergenckee.—(Hear!)—He really wished that thoee Hon. Alen. over that twin to the remission of taxes.
berm who entertained these views, would give the House an idea The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was of

,
?pinion that no confusion could arise from the period on.nle:
in these Resolutions by making up the aeoenntl• em'el,
could be annually made up to the sth January, as use
though in the next year, the first quarter's business must be se-
ranged on the old systern—thc other three quarters on the new
one. With respect to the question asked as to the course
3tc:
be pursued with respect to the Half-pay Annuities, it h a
never been contended on that side of the House that lithe An-
nuities were not sold, the difference between 2,t300, 000 t. on
their former amount must be made up, or by borrowing frala
the Sinking Fund. This he had never pretended to tleq•
—But if the Annuities should be sold, theretwould mu,
be 5 millions applicable to the reduction of debt without the!
issue of Exchequer Bills which in the case he la supposen
might be necessary ;he did not say that it was a matter ott t's"
Course
that the plan should succeed ; but he had as good a righ to
sume that it would as he had to assume the general iwrit
meat of the revenue. Should it fail, the same effect would
r.
A
produced as if the taxes were to fall short in any perticT
year. If from a bad harreet, or any other circumstance, ":
ticiencv of 2 millions were to occur, it must be made up be
issue of Exchequer Bills; and in such year there co
ula be no
surplus of 5 millions. But because in a particular case it tinge
become necessary to increase the unfunded debt of the counl
that was no teason for laying it down as a principle Out a Jab
sum should not be se apart for the reduction of a funded;o
Mr. RICARDO understood the Right lion. Gendemasthe,
consider that there would be a manifest difference between (so
plan being successful, as he called it, and unsuccessful. s .
him it
__pppearetl that in either case the result would l)etre ,
name- This plan could not increase our moans, and wise is
rather wished it might prove unsuccessful than other_..,
as the Right Hon. Getitlentan would not he able to sell the,
nuities but on bad terms, it would be better for the :Ia;
that they should not be sold at all. The Plan can't relief
erect, a debt !
being be created proportionate to the ~,
affkempton.tru.edpieitarclderEsucoschinntkledFdtriheadtt'aotcfht,ethhsoooineou•,?cntowguil.d it be slid fat 7
be considered to amount to 3,000,1)0t'!. ale moved asnoi.
amendment on the Resolutions respecting the hifkfines 'tr'.
ties—" That, in the opinion of this Commatee, ,t .2, 000,0ue
diem to maintain a real Sinking Fund of more than .1, cower
and that it is necessary to afford the people relief hY te,l
taxes to the amount of the remaining surplus revenue; rite
Mr. TIERNEY scarcely knew what helves calleefe rt.
vote on the present occasion, as at present 2.000,1"1e.„°ee Yet
ported Surplus was in a manner lion'' up in thji„""iteetber;
this Platt was considered most admirable by the "a"' of ewe
for Bodmin, who had discovered that the remission „lr.
would afford no relief to the Agricultural Interest. ale alt
ofisoi.nerntidio:d.
delnpdwrte.e:uhitienteuchrte
Tierney) hail felt very anxious to relieve those conne flora
the land from their present burdens, but it should sereeeiti;:
the Honourable Gentleman that they had no wish to be eseltieg
Ilis own individual interest would lead him to prefer al, cele,i
Fund, but from most riarts of the country they had pi ti;
13.40.,
upon to remit taxes. %Vhen the present measure ! su_lose
it would be impossible to comply with such denuinee:o.eart
ever surplus revenue accrued would be claimed for tti , rr-
of public credit. Fund ought oelyston.
,31r. I). GILBERT remarked the Ilonoureble Melee/JO°
Shrewsbury had found out that lie had said the r,,0,4
of taxes would not benefit the agricultural interest. ,I,!,`"bisi
his voice was too low for the Right Hon. Gentleman to n_ce;etr
distinctly, but what he had said was that he did not .c:ilueal
the portion of taxation remitted, which affected the Stlf:olshettl.
classes, would ;ndemnify them for the lessee thee haulm. of the
The plan brought forward last year by die astute
.. , jo,
Exchequer had aopearedtu him in some respects dePtsiilictising,
would have opposed those pares of it had he 6'153.04 °.
so would have been of any use ; and as it was, he reg
having done so. that aid'
Mr. HUSKISSON reminded the Committee, of teen •
the Taxes now to be remitted, the burthens taken leo !het
therople within the last two years amounted t° 71°uP 111 the
6,U0-000/-, while the Sinking Fund was kel?t.io.4 teitt;'
amount to which the House had thought it was I.l,t`tii. tine!.'e"
should be raised. With respect to the surplus Wl' tif
never been disputed on that side of the House tn2the tl
looked to the balance sheet the clear surplus en
Joe •
remitted was but 3,000,000/. This had Dever becalea
The lion. Member for Portarlington had said it woliorrt.
portauce, whether the annuities were sold or, not- their t
with hint that the sale of them would not incte a 11°,5
gneneerainiitt
sources, butt it would add to their means of reduen4 twerp
had year been stated.ethe House to be this], 1,4 thtol,
sideration of the unexpected burtliens which this], „;eitil°,,et
generation
theon which this tlrd,sttpl:llo,:c :01:,,,,:
t:thiicehilbatuuret
foorfthtlise
plan Sink Sinking carry over a portion of the annuities to th" `,.;:evcrY "; ba'.
The object mbeutsbtoauegehotietliiiieirge
could
idlabwe
ntoerniiiiiisiaisnoo:l-,a;
by means of the Sinking Fund, which it ries io ' eine°
of the arrangement made with resre; weight °',..-„, le
car ,erateeeee.
pay Pensions, had been to throw a part of tbe "-ile.fasj .°e. •
on a remote period, and to rive the nelitils' eel at -1
ellea
teen years. tee
The Committee divided on Mr. Hume's Arncleleic
the numbers were.— ;19
For the Amendment '
- - 110
Against it -- " ...-41 'as
- - - vett°
Majority ,a to irnu 4, •
When 'strange - • . ' *.°ll°l'
'strangers were re-adivittuu , 1 Mil Mr. • Itit'
took place on the original resolution, in w i T,ER spool, 0:
the CHANCELLOR of the Exetteof•iltitei; a, after
Iluswissost, and Mr. Benne°, Part- • te
•
Resolution was carried. The Po le,
The remaining Resolutions were agreea to.orse"rea to "
stunted, and the report of the Comuuttee was f 0
satisfaction a n
ceived to-morrow. „cone tee
On the motion of Mr. Go nowt the 5"
V L
Irish Militia Bill w -Itill Fridae- migN. .1,,,,
awpostponet ,Tateve it .11 to,
COMBINATIONS OF JOv In a flt ',roe
Mr. P. 5100 RE moved for leave to bring, , eeleotel.,, his
va
at r
itoit:es
lA,rosetspercgectlkaoo'utufilnndgsdesnetool‘N.ntch:lieomeic°butvistt!nstihnec°9o':::e.:%.'lltree‘o'fhlici,o‘'i.,'l.:
Mr. MA X%V I.'. 1.1, seconded the motion, andune to 04
cl.e, eo' p•
,n of th
Mr. HUSKISSON said, so little was hna% wheal° erist.t
it required. some consideration to determine
II _Oll ~cos
;
port it or not. He hoped the lion. Gentletoa et,,, ie a
0161 P..,, 4
should be generally known. 1, rho l)", vi.l
Mr. Secretary PEEL expressed a shy -1, , pill.
not to be understood es pledged to support t''' 41 04,-
p. I,oog
In
"elled as possible, and let it stand avcr l,..id
did not oppose the motion.
cbritkierny7.
ineke such a change in the laws ,us would be
ti: ich roe 0!
Mr. P. 3ICSORE said, his first object in tl;:eielf to bra,
ten
recovering debts, and settling disputes ,Ilet.ew`iij VI these,
Journeymen. None, by consenting to the 'l,", isle, „see
in, would be committed to support it i but • 4,, to-
ject would receive that attention which he shout
YBeLtildigresan, hte"hotilptseditrotm.plintihpeoi:Lelltsinetcins!:fl;.;lai,il
in , via
Leave was given to bring- in the- 13111'
PRISONS- bring ,
Mr. W. COURTENAY moved for hest nto .00. ,4f0r,0
to consolidate and amend the laws relating to `Tteet et:lsit `a.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said it allbrded troth 5 4.1,0 t
to know that his non. and Learned Friend "I 4
..i
lueble time to this important subject. 'n Oi'i)o
Leave was
_given to-bring in the Bill. i cony,' ase
.. At Eaxv E N
Mr. lIERRIES brought in a Bill to rePea' De row -
to
~J
taxes in England. Read a first, and ordered
) time on \l'euluesday, and to be printed._ et, eeete-----'' 'i
tl_....ssese ' eae . '
,e
o'te_eoex the Ho is • atttotten` .. :.
~, .

FOR TIEFTUN•

. , . 1)1.
Ma. El.! „ -....m....-._
o►►e of °
New 14- It—Having read in oav fool
Newspapers that ci,ileJ ' .1
the. Settlers, who .--p, '''
Lond„„
po_
a. --) arrived, after - a months poss'l','
WI
(MYos'su;. if that place is on the Spaniii' 00
may qbeito Shore,) the folloWing inf,.e. colv
nected useful to the Settlers and Ill' o'fetf
with them. In the year 177'ocherli
Gentle Men subscribed in order to effect: roll'
theyMoutihtad of searching for gold in toed, co
the pial.til", which appear io leogileirsl34 ".
Some- m from the sea shore extends to a!: 000'
which
gold was procured in the-be of tii,e, of tho
igold was washed from the Piesorft‘ces le:
earthl
main di)); the rains, but the heavier io tlitl7;
in the earth. It did not occatih 01'
dont. speculatorsby )y the
to examine the soil for, iltipie;
Spaniards in the ileighl)°' 00 0-t
..oinuene_of Grenada, where lumps of Pureti7reorli
0. 11 (as large as a man's fist) Wow la w
folutliti surface • and one lump of yoire,juseitt t')
the Museum
weighed 70lbs. whioomajrl3,n
e of the King of SPAIN r-o►tat 4, V
110
~# ,for ilfti' pct
A Spaniard dares not venture into tb. e cotill",:itO
meetquito Indian
with. Indians (Indies Bravos) miner
ever) ,i