The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-25 00:00:00

MORNING EDITION.

attributed to him, and to no one else.—( Hear.) What,
then, had been the conduct of her Majesty's Ministers ?
'(Hear.) Had they exerted their legitimate authority t )
put down. that agitation ?—( Hear.) It was true that the
Lord Lieutenant (Lord Ebrington) had recently declared
that he would not countenance by his patronage any person
who avowed himself favourable to the Repeal of the
Union. But what had been the actual conduct of the
Government in respect to patronage ?—( Hear.) The
Hon. and Learned Member for Liskeard had said that pa-
tronage was the powerful instrument by which all pupnlar
leaders were to be conciliated.—(Cheers and taught& r.)
It certainly appeared to be the means to which her Ma-
•ctty's Ministers resorted to put down the repeal agitation.
--(Cheers•) In 1832 the Hon. and Learned Member for
Dublin brought forward a motion for the Repeal of the
Union, and thirty-eight gentiemee voted for the Re-
peal, lie (Sir James Graham) would just read
to the House how many of those popular leaders
had been coneitiated by the delightful recipe of the lion.
and Learned Member for Liskeard ?—( Cheers.) First,
there was Mr. Fitzsimon, a neat relative to the lion. and
Learned Member far Dublin, who was appointed clerk to
the lianaper office in DuLlite—(Cheers from the Opr-
titian. )
Mr. HUME—What h the date of the appointment?
Sir J. GRA HAM had not gut the date, but he had no
doubt that the Noble Lord opposite could supply it.—
( Cheers and a laugh.) Next was Mr. Kennedy, formerly
Member for Tiverton, whom the Nulde Lcrl succeeded
seat in that Hours—( Laughter)—.and who had
since beau appointed to the office of Slave Cormeiisioner
at Havanneb.—(Cheers.) The next was Mr. Lynch, now
a Master in Chancery in England.--(Hear, lica!-, hear.);
Air. Morgan O'Connell, appointed a clerk in the Regis-1
tree,: Office, in the Court of Chancery, Dublin. 'I ban
there was Mr. O'Dwyer, appointed to an office in the
Court of Exchequer in Ireland ; and next was
the appointment of Mr. fitzsimon, which was still in
aheyaner.—(Cheers and a laugh.) Then came the gen-
tleman who acted as teller upon that occasion, and was
now the Vice- Pi esident of the Board of Trade.--
(Cheers.) Then last, but not least, in his (Sir James
Graham's) e teem, came the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man the Member r Dublin himself--( Much cheering).-
16° last year announced, in his place in that House, that
the office of Chief Baron had been offered to him, and he
had refused because, he said, he could not trust him-
self, and lie would run no risk, lest justice should be vio-
lated in his persor.—( Hear, hear.) He (Sir J. Graham)
thought the avowal did the Hon. and Leaned Gentleman
honour, and he made a note of the gratifying and pleasing
t'unPlitneet :Thiel: he pa'd to the Ministers who made him
the uffer.—(Cheers and a laugh.) But the Noble Lord
ePposite, the Secretary for the Colonies, had once boldly
and truly declared, that not the aristocracy alone, but the
People also, had their parasites, and panders, and their
4,"r". He ( Sir J Graham) had read with satisfaction the
Noble Lord's address to his constituents at Stroud,
in which he declared that he would not be the person to
lift the anchors of the monarchy, when the signs of the
Storm were black in the horizon."—( Cheers.) He (Sir
Graham) thought there were times e compromise
was a disgrace ad silence was dishonour—( Cheers)—
Ind he hoped before this debate closed, he would hear
*era the Noble Lord what were his intentions.—( Hear,
Lbear.) Was he disposed to extend the franchise, and to
lower property before numbers ? Had he read the cor-
respondence of Ea-1 Fitzwilliam with Mr. Marshall
,the Noble Lord believe with Mr. Marshall that the revoe
Iniion of 1832 had not been consummated, and that the
Reform Bill had failed, because it had not given the
e()Plts bread ?—( Hear, hear.) Did the Noble Lord also
believe that the war was at hand aid eat inevitable, in
which both the aristocracy and the Crown would be
B.wept away ?—( Cheers.) lie thought they were en-
titled to know what were the Noble Lord's intentions
en these matter', and whether he intended to make fur-
ther concessions and fur:her advances in that line.—
(Cheers.) Let the Noble Lori speak frankly now, and
appeal to the people, lest it might be said hereafter that he
survived in cffice the honour of his Administration, and that
I
waseoutented to govern when he bad ceased to command
1155 confidence of the nation.—( Loud cheers from the
°Pposition.) For his part, he (Sir J. Graham) was most
anxious to consolidate constitutional reform, and he was
tesolved to resist the advance of those democratic move-
Ll:lents. He clung to the measure of Lord Grey as the
"eit security against them. On that ground he had sup-
Ported it in 1832, and be then recorded his opinion that it
/,'?4 stiffieient to satisfy all reasonable demands.—( Loud
bests of " Hear, hear.") He regarded it as the
ichest safeguard against th it restless spirit cf innovation
(tcontentel itself with nothing less than the over-
ow of all our institutions, and of the Throne itself.—
( On that ground he eat determined to stand by
, e Reform Bill, and to improve its provisions.--( Cheers
ltorn
the Reform benches%) He. was ready to remedy the
tdrnitted grievances of the registration system. He stood
to the Reform Act, willing to improve its provisions, and
regulate its operation, but he was resolved to guard
those
franchise, and, above alt, to resist alterations such as
u°se which lam convinced must end in universal suf.
Hear, hear)—and overthrew and degrade this
ie,'4,QtY nation to the level of a turbulent democracy.—
fe,cers• ) In a word, he wisned to state his creed in a
I.na3 which he thought were wotthy of their great
atahor

To patch their flaws
And buttress up their walls.,
Thus far is good ; but fix the mark
For all beyond it, is to touch the ark.
tfit,
To change foundations, cast the frame anew—
The To work for rebels who base ends pursue.
, Right Hon. Baronet resumed his seat amidst loud and
Prole cheers.
LP- SLUE L said that the Right /lon. Baronet who
ittateiddressed the House had risen after a specola die-
Iluguistaed by its ability, delivered by the Hon. Gentle.
a lee Member for Liskeard: and. yet to that speech,
ajtiridiversity of the most important matters,
jat"°°gh that speech contained more than a reply ea a re-
m tion in his (Mr. Shiel's) humble judgment—o many
"'Vs advanced by the Right Hen. and Learned Mem-
ee,
for Exeter; and although that speech presented mat-
ter deservine indeed of the most serious—would he be
Piratiitted to add of the most solemn reflection—the
rMight Honourable Gentleman wha had just set down
IreelY adverted to any of the topics which the Hon.
turnin
ember for Liskeard had discussed—(Cheers)—but on
g--he hoped he would pardon him for saying so—
Ithh the proverbial animosity of conversion—( Hear, hear)
Zht° the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War,
°se speech he had had an opportunity of poring over in
tten-turnal meditations, he pounced on that Right
th°e°. pentleman's criticism, from which he (Mr. Shiel)
thaug.",t he ought to have abstained, when he bore in mind
and.," Right Hon. Gentleman had been his colleague
ha-r 1 uis auxiliary in the most eventful times, and that he
mss e°, operated with him when the Right Hen. Baronet
sighttuo advocate of that very Ballot which he had that
had denounced.—( Cheers.) The Rightßaronet
sPoken of an address to the electors of Stroud. Ho
Shiel) remembered a speech at Stroud, and
H that speech it had been stated that the Right
endurable Baronet was a Member of a Committee
Which
, had agreed to the Ballot.—(Loud cheers on the
',,iilisterial benches.) Ile now defied the Right Hon.
Gentleman to
at R.liecontradict said that in a speech
1 bi„ • The Noble Lord, the S for the Co-
t° ‘=‘, stated that there was a Committeeecretary of five persons
,413Poieted, to whom the project of framing the Reform Bill
Ad 3 ereleitted. He stated that the First Lord of. the
alititeiralty (Sir J. Graham) was one of that Committee,
the ~he further stated that that Committee had agreed to
fore, sdllet.--( Loud cheers. He (Mr. Spiel) said, there-
ought at the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Graham)
ai!,:lt to bear in mind that he was the colleague of a man
ylghished--he did not exaggerate alien he said,
of Rel'ir ma'ehless eloquence—in defence of the cause
'oral, while the Rtgat Honourable Gentleman
his a used the expression of the Noble Lord—shrunk from
aiie;,utY. The Right Hon. Gentleman then remained
f the °r in one instance only during the whole agitation
whe Reform Bill departed from his prudent taciturnity,
kern; he compared the swamping of the Lords to the sub- '
The',.,ol? of the Royal George.—(Tremendous cheering.)
the h'tiglit Hon. Gentleman had done him (Mr. Shiel)
be °ooor to advert to him. He (Mr. Shiel) could not
in „itlit'il2rtsd at it, and he could. not complain of the manner
eice the Right Hon. Gentleman had done so, cape-
heetf when he remembered the way in which he had
friends ill the habit of adverting to his former
IR itia--(Loud cheers.) He (Mr. Shiel) remembered
Sir j is a speech made by the Right Hon. Gentleman on
eraiear°,Fs Scarleit, and how did be represent him? Ho
L'lto " a renegade Whig."—(Loud cheers.) The
rep"; "cm. Baronet- might call him (Mr. Shiel) an ex-
eeho-%'er, if he liked, when he designated a gentleman to
win hhe l he was' attached, by a phrase the force of
tieeo•l surely must now deeply feel.—(Great cheering.)
liearil„'d turn from topics, perhaps, almost too personal—
Lad "ear)--in which the House would feel, that if he
beeiß°llo too far, there was at least some excuse for his
ftlhjengt di°oo so. He would turn from those topics to the
had je,..1 'root which he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman
to the their :attention somewhat away. He would turn
Lord Bill, of his Noble 'Friend, and the Bill of the Noble
that tithe Member for North Lancashire. If it were said
Rlslconi:lrealeeitt oiff his e Noble Friend was at variance with the
ltear, Lord W • • Reform Act, of course, the Bill of the
) as quite consistent with that spiii..—( Hear,
ste,,_ That Bill left the question of the franchise as it
cgq
it involved it in perplexi:ies still
more harrass-
`eeisi_O those which surrounded it now—it impeded the
oreineruon of the franchise by means of obstacles which no
Means
,f.elairriant could be expected to surmount ; and by
'natters an annual revision—let the House mark it—for
the •it antecedent to the register, it worried and moleeted
and titer out of the enjoyment of his privileges;
purpesuey these expedients, so discordant with the
of
rirroewi
the
the Reform Bill, it contracted and
already wasted and shrunk constituencies
and ti) th
.This appeared to Hon. Gentlemen opposite,
slit, e Right Hon. B to be con-
, eat, With
the Baronet among others,
'go contrar 'spirit of the Reform Bill. Let them on
Inehe t, Y define the franchise, and they would then re-
liviiallh:elt.inuT,iihidfi,eycuabwtitoosunladndsuditEculifies funded on questions of
ppress raud and perjury, and.estab-
independent of the oath of the elaiman,
faeilitat h
ate claimant t e acquis'tion of the franchise by the legi-
fleet; , while the
the -en of, fixed
ey created a criterion for the quali-
,„ voter when he
permanent nature, whic.di would protect
he'ttne from h 7; oc had acquired the franchise by legitimate
ehaleved that, perpetually harassed and tormented. He
the of his Noble Friend would raise the
increase of the Irish constituencies, and would tend to
ect the wealth presperi,y, and remuneration,. social,
t.i!e 'h
04:
;Vet,
moral, of an Inteldgent people.—( Cheers.)
rr,leete t ;we!, appeared to lion. Gentlemen opposite,
111° Bet. 110
(Mr.
with. the general spirit of the. ye-
:l7iereogtahredetrt (Mr. Shiel) was of a contrary opinion.
measure of his Noble Friend as one by
.riarrie • into s.pirit of the Reform Bill might be readily
Ile the izr.efree'• He regarded it as a means of fortify-
,s4t4ufa ti
the Act against any future and not improbable
ee,V'ltti it Noble Lord opposite.—( Hear.) He
a„,a mear,,, of allaying that ferment which
etteeheitlitt yeland, and of eeitiing the confidence.
attltleeded them"l the peoplo at a time while they might I
`l. tOre . ; and by doing ue did 1101. ne-
Pl 7 111 the words of his Hop. Friend the Mem-

ber for Salford, himself the representative of a great
English constituency—by doing justice to Ireland.—
(Cheers.) It appeared to him that the notion cf justice
to Ireland, in the opinion of Hon. Gentlemen opposite,
depended far fess upon the plain principles of justice than
on those events which seemed to affect the rights of one
country in tie same measure in which they affected the
interest and the safety of the other. Witness what
had taken place.—( Hear hear, hear.) His Hon.
Friend the Member for Liskeard had glanced at it.
Look at the circumstancee under which the elective fran-
chise was first granted to the Irish people in the year
1792. A petition presented by the Roman Catholics of
Ireland to the Irish Parliament was flung under the table,
and scornfully repudiated. Six months elapsed, and Mr.
Pitt, who was not so bold an the Right Hon. Gentleman
who had last addressed the House, but who was too brave
not to shrink from the horrors of a civil as--Mr. Pitt
saw that the conciliation of the Roman Catholics of Ire-
land—they were then three millions, there are now
seven millions—was required for the security of the
country, and he granted the franchise to the Irish people.
The name of the Duke of Wellington had been introduced
that night by the Hon. and Learned Member for Bandon,
who called him, and justly called him, a great and surpass-
ing man.—( Cueers.) Ile was a great arts( surpassing man,
attached to his party on ordinary occasions, but who for-
got those connectione when the great interests of the
country required it. That distinguished man was himself
a member of the Irish Parliament. lie seconded the ad-
dress for the Catholic Emancipation Act, of that day.
Young as he way, then, and comparatively inexperienced,
he could nut look to Ireland without seeing thst the re-
conciliation of the Roman Catholics of that country
was indispensible for the safety of the country.
His speech on the occasion was confined
to a few words. He said that "an augmentation of force
was indeed necessary as ineutioned in the speech from
the circumstances of the time. lie urged what had been
recommended in the speech from the Throne, and re-
specting as he did his Catholic fellow-subjects he could not
help expressing his approbation of it. Ile had observed
the loyalty of his Catholic fellow-countrymen, and he hoped
that all animosity between all parties would disappear."
The man who used those words, 36 years afterwards got
up in the House of Lords, and said that he looked with
apprehension on civil warfare, and he asked the Legisla-
ture to adopt that great measure of concession.—( Cheers.)
As long as the Catholics of Ireland used the franchise as
a trust for the Protestant interest, so long as their state of
subservency existed, as long as the landlord was held to
be as much entitled to the vote as to the rent, no complaint
was made against the exercise of the franchise by the 40s.
freeholders ; but when the people became conscious of their
rights, when the influence of that Great Association
which the Noble Lord seemed so solicitous should survive,
was in existence, and when the elections of Waterford,
Louth, and Clare, afforded evidence that as the numbers
in Ireland increased, her moral energies expanded, then
and not till then, the 40e. freehold was abolished, and
the 101. qualification was established, with the solvent
tenant test.—(Cheers.) Ile &tiled the statement of
the Hon. Member for Exeter, who had stated that there
was a condition, and he had that fact from the speech of
the Hon. Member for Tarnworth, in which he stated that
there was no condition. That speech proved that
there was was no communication, and therefore no contract.
But if there was a condition, were they not bound
to adhere to the qualification ? The Hon. Baronet had
refused to grant a double appeal, and in that he was joined
by Lord Lyndhurst. But then it was said if the qualifi-
cation was insisted upon, the machinery must be changed.
Now, if the machinery was ohanged, the engine would
work in an entirely different way. But there were not
wanting men of talent to remonstrate against the solvent
tenant test; there was at that time a young patrician who
stood forward as the champion of the people's rights.
—( Hear, hear, and great cheering.) He remonstrated
against the solvent test ; the speech that was made by that
Noble Lord was extant, and he would not trouble the
House with it ; it was read last night, and when the
Noble Lord was taunted with it, and the Hon. Member
for Exeter came to the rescue, he did not deny the speech
—he did not deny that the Noble Lord had denounced the
solvent tenant test. No, but he said it was before
emancipation.—(Cheers.) And accordingly the Noble
Lord struck out of the Bill the solvent tenant test. This
was the speech of the Noble Lord—" Mr. Stanley con-
ceived it was sufficient to prove the freeholder had a benfieial
interest of 10/. in the !and, without calling on him to
show that the solvent tenant could afford 101. a year. '—
(Cheers.) The Noble Lord said he wished to make no
real change in the Reform Bill, but four Judges of the
laud had said he did—(Cheers)—and this fact ought to
be impressed on the House, that the Noble Lord had the
appointment of sixty Barristers, and under the provisions
of the Bill sixty names were registered in favour of the
Noble Lord, under the beneficial interpretation, and not
under the solvent tenant test.—(Cheers.) When did the
Noble Lord first complain of this ? Did they hear one
word from him from 1832 to 1835 ?—( Cheers.) Or as
lung as he remained in office ?—( Continued cheering.)
No, until he changed his party he never changed his
mind.—(Cheers.) But when the Noble Lord and
the Member for Pembroke went over—when the
Right Honourable Baronet, the Member for Pembroke,
who in 1835 declared it would be disgraceful to him to
join men to whom all their lives they had been opposed—
( Great cheering)—they might call him Repealer as much
as they pleased, but when they went over—when they
joined themselves to the men who opposed them in every
shape—when they united themselves with the Tories, and
something more—and when they became the confederates
of a faction they had denounced as miserable and expiring,
then the Noble Lord found it necessary to give proofs of
the sincerity of bis conversion, and to make compensation
for agreeing to swamp the House of Lords, and accord-
ingly the Noble Lord conferred upon his party the groat
services be had to bestow. He found that his party would
be destroyed by the Irish Reform Bill, and he therefore took
it up and aimed at it a blow not less mortal because it was
insidious.—(Cheers.) He says the landlords shall once a
year have the opportunity of dragging the tenants before
the Assistant Barrister for the purpose of ripping up their
title. The Noble Lord still adheres to his Bill, and why
should he not ? The greater the confusion, the greater
the obstruction. —(Great cheering.) He would not use,
in designating the purpose of the Noble Lord, the expres-
sion which that Noble Lord had himself made use of in
designating the Bill of his Noble Friend. He would not
say that the Noble Lord's purpose was false and fraudu-
lent; he would not use language so coarse.—(Loud
cheers.) He was restrained by courtesy from giving that
designation to the purpose of the Noble Lord which ought
to be given to it.—(Cheers.) But who could doubt
the purpose of the Noble Lord who had observed
his conduct, had read his Bill, or listened to his
declaration on Monday night as to the relative duties
of landlords and tenants ?—( Cheers.) On that subject
he had given utter mice to sentiments which the boldest of
the Tory party would have shrunk from uttering.—
(Cheers.) But what he had then said ought to show the
people of England what manner of man it was who was
now the standard-beater of the Tories of this country. It
ought to show them that the time was come when those
aggressive strides must be resisted, and when some method
must be devised to protect from threatened intimidation
the liberty of Englishmen. The Noble Lord bad endea-
voured to snake it appear that as regarded the regis-
tration, the Bill of his Noble Friend resembled that
of the Noble Lord. You have a revision, said the
Nk,ble Lord, and we have a revision. We have
an appeal, and you have an appeal. Bills resemble
one another.—( Hear, bear.) But here the Government
Bill gave a revision before registration; the Bill of the
Noble Lord gave one after. The Government Bill gave
an appeal on questions of law only; the Noble Lord's
Bill gave an appeal on questions of fact.—( Loud cheers.)
The Noble Lord had relied too much on their credulity
and simplicity in endeavouring to impress upon them
these resemblances.—(Loud cheers.) Now, with reipeet
to the rating as a test. It had been chosen as a test by
Hon. Gentlemen opposite. You give us a rating under
the Poor-law as a test, said they, and we will give you
municipal reform ? The test of rating had been given to
them as a test for the municipal franchise, and now they
objected to it as a test for the elective franchise. If they were
sincere in their anxiety for the settlement of that question,
why not take the Poor-rate as the basis, leaving the ques-
tion of amount ? Oh, but said the Hon. and Learned

Member for Exeter, we take the solvent tenant test; we
arc bound to do so by the Emancipation Act. Doubtless
he thought so ; but the Judges of Ireland differed from
him in opinion, and his arguments in the House of Com-
mons were of little use, since they could not find an on-
trance into the Court of Exchequer in Dublin. Four of
the Judges had declared they would not be bound by the
d( eision of the majority, and at that declaration the Hon.
Member for Exeter bad declared himself perfectly horri-
fied. Sweep away half of the constituency of Ireland,
and the Honourable and Learned Gentleman re-

mained calm and unmoved; but violate a rule of
law, and his indignation was awakened.--(Hear, hear.)
" striv," sail Chatham, in reply to Lord Mansfield,
" striF a the whole Constitution to its centre, and a lawyer
will sit tranquil and calm--touch but a single cobweb
of Westmin4ter-ball, and the spider will start out in all its
venorn."—( Loud chce•e.) He would read the *Lion of
Chief Baron O'Grady on the subject of this difference.
The Right Hon. Gehtlaman then read the opinion, from
which it appealed the Chief Baron considered that, sit-
ting in a Court of Appeal, he was not bound by the
construction of his brethren, and the only remedy for this
evil was the creation of a superior Court of Appeal. It
was the duty of that House to consider, not if this were
well, but what they ought to do. What was their reason

for not defining the franchise ? Why had they adopted
All thu poison of Sir Michael O'Loghlin's Bill, and
omitted the antidote ? It was right the House should
kuow that in Sir M. O'Loghlin's Bill there had bcen in-
troduced a clause expressly defining the franchise; now
why had that clause beer, omitted from the Noble Lord's

13111 ? Why, because it was adverse to their party interests.
—( Loud cheers ) They would not introduce the clause
—they would not put a stop to the wrangling of the Judges
—they acknowledged the case to be scandalous, and yet
they would not apply a remedy. Sir Michael O'Loghlin's
Bill had contained a clause defining the franchise to be a
beneficial interest one, and not a solvent tenant one. If

that clause had been cmtained in the Noble Lord's Bill it

would not have been opposed. It was disingenuous to rely
on the authority of Sir M. O'Loghlin. and to conceal such
an importar}t fact as that.—(Lcud ch,nrs.) Would the
Noblo Lord tell them now what ho would do? Ho

had heard that question put again and again,
and it bad been answered. He admitted the evils had

existed, yet he refused to define the franchise, and all the
profligacy which was the consequence lay at their own
doors. Now what was the constituency which Ireland
sought to possess ? He had remarked that the Right
HOP. Baronet the Member for Pembroke, bad said that he

should regret if the gentry of Ireland should be forced
into a combination to refuse leans to their tenants. The

Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire, on Mon-
day night, had explained the reason of the falling off
in tho numbers of the constituency, by stating that the
landlords had found that the tenants did not agree with
them in political opinions, and had, therefore, no-
ref.teti !Ical. Lear.) It was
quite clear tLa the constituency was melting away,
that ihcae ..as eotnifiiiiatioil against the Reform Bill to
turn the Irish counties into rotten boroughs, returning