The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-10 00:00:00

?raise, namely, that the evidence of witnesses was not
to be limited by technical rules. Let a witness be
sifted as much as possible, but let his evidence be taken
quantum valeat. He should be glad to see, by way of
supplement to this measure, one for introducirg a sys-
tem of stipendiary Magistrates throughout the country.
Colonel WOOD would caution the House to take

care so to limit the measure then before them, and tire
number, and the appointment of the Judges, that the
new Courts would not be made instruments for admi-
nistering criminal justice, while they were made the
means of recovering debts and adjudicating in civil
cases. He thought the two subjects should be kept
totally distinct. Generally speaking, however, he be-
lieved the proposed measure would be of great advantage
to the poorer classes of the community.—( Hear.)
Mr. HUME could not conceive how the adoption
of the measure could lead to the danger that criminal
and civil jurisdiction would be confounded by its provi-
sions. He completely coincided is the views expressed
by his Hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Mr.
Ewart), and his only regret on that occasion was
that the Bill did not go further than was pro-
posed. The * cheap and easy administration
of justice was an object of the utmost importance to the
community at large ; and he certainly felt that the
measure just introduced would tend very materially to
secure that object.
Mr. HAWES was glad that the Bill had been
brought forward. He hailed the measure as a bold ef-
fort on the pert of her Majesty's Ministers to endea-
vour to lessen the costs of the law, and facilitate the
administration of justice. Numbers of small debt
bills had been formerly passed, almost every year,
through the House, each rendering the law more per-
plexed by introducing new principles. At present
there were innumerable small Courts, with various de-
grees of jurisdiction, the patronage of which was placed
in the hands of private individuals. He thought such
a system extremely injurious to the due administration
of justice ; and he hoped the rights of patrons would
not prevent the passing of the measure then before them.
The Hon. and Gallant Officer had given no reason for
his opinion, that the giving to these Judges criminal and
civil jurisdiction would act injuriously. If in the me-
tropolitan districts they had competent Judges under
the Police Act, why should they not hare additional
duties imposed upon them, if they had time to discharge
such duties? He saw nothing injurious in such a plan,
and he thought the public, having gone to a very great
expense in the establishment of those Courts, were en-
titled to have them made as beneficial to the people as
possible. The vesting the appointment of Judges of
these Courts in the Lord Chancellor or the Lord Chief
Justice, would remove all objections that could be made
en the score of political patronage. That was a subject
which had been much discussed in the Committee, and
he understood the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
Pembroke to say that he had no ol•jection to
give the patronage of these Courts to the Lord Chan-
cellor, or the Lord Chief Justice, but that he would
prefer the Lord Chief Justice. *Healso understood the
Right Hon. Gentlemen as having stood less for the
rights of the existing patrons. Now, if a great and
useful measure of this nature were opposed by Hon.
Gentlemen merely foe the sake of preserving their pri-
vate patronage, it would give great support to the opi-
nion that that House existed more for private purposes
than for public benefit ; and he hoped that when the
question was next discussed, they should hear a great deal
less about the loss of patronage by private individuals
and a great deal more of the necessity of securing a good
administration of justice than they had done on former

occasions.
Mr. O'CONNELL thought that the want of that,
the introduction of which into the measure had been
deprecated by the Hon. Member for Middlesex, consti-
tuted its great evil. The Judges of these Courts
ought to possess both civil and criminal jurisdiction.
Let them lock at the anomaleus state of the law regu-
lating these Courts in the different countries. In Erse-
land by this Bill the Judge of the County Court had
civil jurisdiction only ; in Ireland he might possess
both civil and criminal jurisdiction ; and in Scotland,
where he had originally only criminal jurisdiction, civil
jurisdiction had been recently superadded ; so that in the
three different countries there were three different me-
thods adopted in the administration of justice. In many
cases of civil trial it was necessary that the Judge should
have criminal jurisdiction, and nothing could be more
anomalous than this Judge half dead and half
alive, this paralytic Judge—(A laugh)—who was
alive on one side only—alive on the civil, but
dead on the criminal side.—(A laugh.) What
the Hon. Member opposite was afraid of was, that they
would interfere with the jurisdiction of the Magistrates.
(Hear, hear, from Colonel T. Wood.) In Scotland,
the Magistrates had very little. to do he believed, and
that was just what they were fit fo--(A laugh)—and it
would be for the benefit of this country if the Magid.
trates here had also the same opportunity of indulging
in dignified leisure extended to them. An unpaid Ma-
gistracy was a perfect anomaly which bad no existence
in any other county.—(Cheers.) The Magistrates'
Court could not, at all events, be considered as a poor
man's Court ; at all events he had never known an in-
stance in which the being rich had been a disadvautage
to a man before the Magistrates.—(Cheers.) He
thought it would be better in all cases to leave the ad-
ministration of justice to paid and responsible authori-
tics.—(Cheers.) He ryas sorry to see that the Bill
proposed to give patronage to the Judges. The Lord
Chancellor was one of the Ministers of the day, remov-
able vvitir the Mieidry, and, therefore, the giving•
patrowsge to him was, in fact, giving it to the
Ministry—but if they wished to devise a method for
spoiling the Lord Chief Justice, they could not possibly
invert one mere effectual or more calculated to degrade
him into a political partisan than the giving him the ap-
pointment of threJudges of those Courts. The Bar at
present was quite subservient enough to the Bench.
Mr. Sergeant TA LFOURD—No, no.
Mr. O'CONNELL—Not subservient enough 2
(Roars of laughter, in which Mr. Sergeant Talfourd
joined.) Now if they gave the Lord Chief Justice the
appointment of these Judges, they would have the entire
rising Bar subservient to him. Not a junior barrister
welld express an opinion or take a part in any political
discussion until he had ese,ertained the opinion of the
Lord Chief Justice. He hoped that in the progress of
the Bill some clause would be introduced to give the
Judges of the County Courts criminal as well as civil
jurisdiction, in the same manner es was now exercised
by the Judges in the higher Courts, and he felt con-
vinced that the public would be highly benefited by
retying the criminal as well as tho civil jurisdiction
brought home to their own doors.
Mr. WAIZ.BURTON hopel the provisions of that
Bili would provide for the proceedings and practice of
the Courts. He should wish to see the same proceed-
ings adopted in these Courts, as were adopted before
the Commissioners of Bankrupts, where bosh litigant
parties were brought before the Judge and examined.
Mr. FOX MAULE—It is so ; such are the previ-
sioni of she Bill.
Mr. WA B.I3URTON-011, very well ; then I have
nothing more to say.
Mr. G. KNIGHT trusted that he should never see
the day when stipendiary Magistrates should be placed
in the room of-those who had so effectively performed
their duties, and administered the justice of the country.
He should be extremely jealous of any measure that
would bare that effect. The Bill now before the
House was not of that character, and he hoped it
would not be followed up by any such measure as had
been suggested by the Hon. Member for Wigan.
Mr. VILLIERS supported the Bill. He. believed
that nothing was so detrimental to large districts,. as
having unpaid Magistrates.
Mr. CRES WELL would be most anxious at all
times to render every assistance in his power to perfect a
measure that would give justice to the poor at a cheap
rate, but the great difficulty, in his opinion, was so to
frame a measure as to give satisfaction to those it was
intended to benefit. Another point to which he would
refer, and which appeared to have been made a ground
of objection against the Bill, was the patronage given
by it to the Judges. He trusted that he valued the
integrity and independence of the bar as highly as any
man living ; but he entertained no apprehension that
that independence, or that integrity, would be at all
diminished if the patronage referred to by the llon.
Member were given to the Lord Chancellor or to the
Chief' Justice. The Hon. Member had said that the
bar was sufficiently subservient to the Judges already.
He (Mr. Cresswell) did not know whether he meant by that to insinuate that they were too subser-
vient, but he defied any man who had been in
the habit of visiting Westminster Hall to substantiate a
charge of want of independence and integrity against
the membersoftleboar respectr.ltw for thoseastheirr
fiudnec,ttioalsaie
that al
who -•
they
felt a proper
administer the law, yet they maintained perfect
though
independence and firmness in all that relates! to the
interest of their clients. Would any man pretend to
say that there bad been any alteration of late in the
conduct of the members of the bar ? No one would
say so ;
et the Judgei nad exercised considerable pa-
tronage in the appointment of revising barristers—
(Hear)—and he apprehended that
and independencellttherecou
could be
of no
greater proof of the upri. es
the thanhoahraoz ehad
was v a sh furnishedeoo
produced
theirfe.ct
political that not
opi-
nions least -
nions by the appointments of the Judges.—(Hear,
hear.) It was the consciousness of their integrity
ogrlityanl
their
s
honour which supported them in the discharge
a-duous duties.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
Mr. FOX MAULE then moved for leave to bring
in a Bill to enable the Lord Chancellor to direct that
certain proceedings from the Court of Chancery, and
matters in bankruptcy, insolvency, and lunacy, may be
carried to the County Courts. The Hon. Gentleman
said that the Bill which he now proposed was some-
what connected with that which had already been dis-
cussed. He took it for granted, in addressing himself
to this second Bill, that the County Courts had been
established. It was not his intention to enter_ on that
occasion into the great questions of insolvency and bank-
ruptcy. That question must be touched upon in another
Bill, and required to be brought forward by one whose