The Sun.
London, England, 1847-06-01 00:00:00

MORN ENG, JUNE i, 1847.

Committee on the Bill should be laid before the House.
Agreed to.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORTS.
The reports of the following Bills were further con-
sidered and agreed to:—
Anita rgate, Nottingham, and Boston, and Eastern
Junction Railway (Alteration of Line and Branch. a
to Notingtiam).
Glasgow, Riisley, Kilmarnock. and Ayr Railway (No. 2).
Glasgow, Paisley, Kihaaruock, end Ayr Railway, and
Ayrshire and Bridge of Weir Railway (No. 3).
Lndon and South-Western Railway (Andover to the
Bishopstoke and Salisbury Branch, &c.)
Mac Duff Harbour.
Metropolitan Sewage Manure.
Newport, Abergavenny, and Hereford Railway (Exten-
sion to Taff Vale Railway).
Newport, Abergavenny, and Hereford Railway Devia-
tion!.
Sandwich Haven.
Swansea and Amman Junction Railway.
Waterford and Limerick Railway.
BIRMINGHAM, WOLVERHAMPTON, AND
DUDLEY RAILWAY.
On the bringing up of the report of the Birmingham,
Wolverhampton, and Dudley Rade Bill, reporting that
the preamble hud not be. n proved,
Mr. SPOONER moved that the Bill he recommitted,
which was agreed to after a few observations from Sr
J. Graham.
LIVERPOOL, CROSBY, AND SOUTHPORT
RAILWAY.
Mr. BROWN moved, on the turther consideration of
the report from the Committee on the Liverpool, Crosby,
and Southport Railway Bill, that the Bill be read the
third time on Wednesday next —Motion agreed to.
LONDON-BRIDGE RAILWAY TERMINI.
Mr. GREENE moved, that, in the case of the
London-bridge Railway Termini (General Enlarge-
ment), petition for additional provision, the Examiner
should have leave to sit and proceed to-morrow.
Motion agreed to.
COMMISSIONERS OF SEWERS.
Mr. KEMBLE moved that the Examiners of petitions
for private Bills have leave to sit on the examination of
the petition of the Commissioners of Sewers for the
limits extending from East Moulsey, in Surrey, to the
Ravensborne, in Kent, for leave to bring in a Bill " to
facilitate the effectual drainage of certain districts within
the Commission of Sewers for the limits extending from
East Moulsey, in Surrey, to the Ravensborne, in Kent,"
without giving seven clear days' notice of the day ap-
pointed for such examination.—Agreed to.
NORTH STAFFORDSHIRE RAILWAY.
Viscount INGESTRE moved, on the further conside-
ration of the report from the Committee on the North
Staffordshire Railway (Alteration and Branches) Bill,
that the Bill be read a third time on Wednesday next.—
Motion agreed to.

HEALTH OF TOWNS.
Lord EBRINGTON presented a petition, numerously
signed by members of the medical profession, praying
that the provisions of the Health of Towns Bill should
be extended to the city of London.
MEDICAL REGISTRATION.
Mr. WAKLEY presented a large number of petitions,
praying the House to pass the Medical Registration Bill
in the present session.
POLICE ACT.
Dr. BOWRING presented a petition numerously
signed by beer-sellers against certain clauses in the Po
lice Act.

MARRIAGE AND REGISTRATION BILLS.
Mr. BRUCE presented various petitions against the
Marriage and Registration Bills from different parishes
in Scotland.

MEDICAL BILL.
Mr. ORMSBY GORE presented petitions against the
Medical Bill from Brecknock and other places, and pray-
ing that they be referred to a Committee up stairs.
MARRIAGE AND REGISTRATION BILLS.
Mr. FORBES presented petitions from Presbyterians
in Fife against the Marriage and Registration Bills.
Mr. H. DRUMMOND presented similar petitions from
other places in Scotland.
Mr. LOCKHART presented similar petitions.
SMI'T'HFIELD MARKET.
Mr. SPOONER presented 13 petitions in favour of the
removal of Smithfield market.
EDUCATION.
Mr. BANKES presented petitions from :various Dis-
senting bodies in Dorsetshire, praying for a participation
in educational grants.
HEALTH OF TOWNS BILL.
Mr. T. S. DUNCOMBE presented petitions from
Durham in favour of the Health of Towns Bill.
EDUCATION.
Sir R. PEEL presented petitions from the Roman
Catholics of Birmingham, praying that they should par-
ticipate in the Government scheme of education.
REGISTRATION AND MARRIAGE ACTS.
Mr. SMOLLETT presented petitions from Dumbar-
tonshire and other places against the Registration and
Marriage Bills.
Mr. FORBES presented similar petitions from Stir.
Mr. D. M'NEILL presented several petitions against
the Marriages Act.
EDUCATION.
Captain PECHELL presented petitions from the
Roman Catholic clergy men and inhabitants of Brighton,
praying to be admitted participators in the Government
educational scheme.
MEDICAL REGISTRATION BILL.
Mr. HUME presented several petitions in favour of
this Bill.
Sir G. GREY presented a similar petition from
Devonprt.

Noble Lord the Prime Minister intended to proceed
with, and what to abandon ?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that, in answer to his
Hon. Friend, he begged to remind him, that he stettd

on Friday last what course he intendvd to pursue
with regard to certain measures, and that he further
pledged himself on that day to state what would be his

course with respect to the Bills upon the table of the
House ; and, first, with regard to the Scotch Bill regu
lating the law of registering births, it should be taken
into consideration on Monday next, as the first businees.
His Hon. Friend who had brought them forward would
then state his reasons for so doing, and why the objec-
tions which had been urged against them were invalid ;
also, in what shape he would wish them to stand, and after
that it was his intention not to proceed with them further
this session of Parliament. The next Bill was that of
the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and with regard to
that Bill he considered that it was absolutely necessary
that some amendment should take place in that
Commission. Bur, at the came time, he f and
that the precise mode in which that amens-
meat was to be made would be a matter
of some consideration, as there was great objection made
to the plan proposed. They should, therefore, see, in
another session, what other mode of amendment could
be carried into effect. He moved the order of the Re
gistry of Births Scotland Bili for the purpose of pos-
poning it.
Sir R. H. IN'GLIS wished to ask the Secretary of the
Home Department what were the intentions of the Go
vernment with regard to the Bill which was to regulate
the stocking trade.
Sir G. GREY said that he intended to move the se-
cond reading of that Bill this evening.
Mr. E. DENISON said that he had beard with some
regret the avowal of the Noble Lord that the Bill for the
reformation of the Ecclesiastical Commission was with
drawn for the present session.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that if the Hon. Gentleman

would bring forward his motion, without impugning the
conduct of the Commissioners, he should not oppose it.
Mr. J. COLLETT wished to know whether it was the
intention of the Government to create a new bishop or
bishoprics this session ; and whether they were to have
seats in the House of Lords?
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Government intended

to introduce a Bill into the other House of Parliamen

for the purpose of uniting the Bishoprics of Bangor and
St. Asaph, and also for providing a new Bishop for
Manchester. It was not intended to add to the seats in

the House.

Mr. C. BERKELEY said ha had received a commu-
nication from the First Lord Commissioner of Woods
and Forests informing him that he was as yet unable to
give him an answer to his question respecting the Wel-
lington statue.—(Laughter.) He should like to know
when the Noble Lord would be able to answer his ques-
tion.

Lord J. RUSSELL said that he understood the Noble
Lord would be able to answer the question on Thursday.
ARMED INTERVENTION OF ENGLAND IN
THE AFFAIRS OF PORTUGAL.
Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE said he had to object to the
armed intervention of this country in the affairs of Portu
gal, ashe thought such intervention would be dangerous
to liberty, and favourable to despotism, and he hoped
his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose would not
be induced, by honied words, to discontinue the prose-
cution of his views on this matter.

Mr. HUME said he had already stated his intention
of bringing on the question on Friday next. He should
feel himself bound to avail himself of every opportunity
•f bringing the tiestion forward.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, he could assure his Hon.
Friend and the House, that there was no wish on the part
of her Majesty's Government to avoid this discussion, be-
cause the more the question was 'known the better the
Government would stand ; but he did not think that the
House should enter upon the question until certain docu-
ments, for which the Chancellor of the Exchequer
would move, were laid before them.

Mr. HUME said, documents or no documents, he
would move for a Committee on Friday.
Mr. B. OSBORNE said he would refuse all motions
to go into a Committee of Supply till the question was
brought forward.
Mr. P. BORTHWICK said the Noble Lord's answer
would produce a greater effect on Portugal than any
force he could send out. He hoped, however, the Noble
Lord would hasten the printing of the papers as much
as possible.
Lord GEORGE BENTINCK asked if the Noble
Lord would have any objection to lay the papers on the
table of the House in detached portions, for if they were
so voluminous as had been stated, it would be impos-
sible for Hon. Members to read them in sufficient time.
He thought, therefore, it would be a great convenience
if his suggestion were attended to.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said they would be brought
forward as expeditiously as possible.
POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that in moving the
order of the day for the consideration of the Lords'
amendments on the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill he wished
to draw the attention of the Speaker to the course
adopted by his predecessor, Lord Dumfermline, when he
was in the chair in 1838. He would therefore ask thin
Speaker to state what his opinion was of those amend-
ments, and how they aff, cted the privileges of the House.
The SPEAKER said he had no hesitation in savine
that the amendments made by the House of Lords to
the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bul and the Landed Pro.
perty (Ireland) Bill were an infringement of the privi
leg sof this Howse. In 1838, when similar amendments
were passed by the Lords to those they had introduced
into the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill, the House agreed t,
wAve its privileges, and it was for the House to decide
whether they would adhere to that practice in the present
instance. With regard, however, to the Landed Propert •
(Ireland) Bill, there was no precedent for the guidance
of the House, and the case was the more difficult
to deal with, because the amendments re-
lated to funds to be drawn eut of the Consolidated
Fund, while in the other case the amendments related
only to local rates.—(Hear, hear.) It was, nevertheless,
for the House to decide in both cases what course should
be taken. _ _

The order of the day for the consideration of the
Lords' amendments to the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill was
then read.

Lord J. RUSSELL, in moving the consideration of
the amendments, said the House would perceive that
the opinion given from the Chair was entirely in
conformity with the one given in 1838.—(Hear).
The question was whether it was expedient that they
should waive their privileges. Those cases to which
reference had been made were of local taxation, in which
the object in view was not taxation for any object of the
State, but had merely in view local objects. With retard
to the last of these, one of the chief amendments made
by the Lords was the division of the taxation into what
was termed electoral divisions, and that was an amend
ment which had been agreed to by the House of Commons.
It did materially alter the burden of taxation ; but con-
sidering that the object of this amendment was the same
as that to which he referred, he was not disposed to
think that they ought to press the point of privilege. But
it was quite another question when they came to consider
it apart from privilege, and they should take in to considera-
don in what state the House of Lords had returned to
them the Bill which they had sent up. That Bill was of
a very important nature—it extended relief to all the old
and infirm, whether in or out of the workhouse, and to
the able-bodied poor outside, if the workhouse was full.
With regard to those two great principles, he found that
the House of Lords had left them untouched. There
was the amendment proposed for the purpose of limiting
the operation of this Bill to three years. Such a
clause would have been most injurious, and he
was glad to see that no such provision ap-
peared in the Bill. He was glad to say that all
the main features of the Bill remained unchanged
on its return to that House. It was true that the Lords
had insisted that the out-door relief should be given by
electoral division ; but there was, however, another
clause, which seemed to counteract the omission
of the clause which relieved the electoral di-
visions from the payment of these rates.
The provision introduced by the Lords very much
counteracted the evil which would arise from the omis-
sion made by the Lords ; and, considering that as a
change which would not be injurious to the Bill,
and that the Lords had agreed to all the main
points of the measure ; and, considering also the
necessity of the measure receiving the sanction of
both Houses this session, he was disposed to re-
commend them to agree to the amendments. He did not
object to the alteration which enacted that the landlords
of the highest rating should sit upon the boards of
guardians ; but he thought that it was very unfair that
the non-resident proprietor should have a nominee and a
proxy. He would therefore move that these amendments
be now read.

The amendments up to clause 11 were agreed to.
On clause II being read,
Sir D. NORREYS objected to the amendment.
For some time previous to the introduction of the pre-
sent poor-law, circumstances were in operation in Ire-
land which caused the eviction of the poor tenantry from
the rural districts, and caused them to settle in the
towns. As soon as the law of settlement was intro-
duced it had the immediate effect of settling as a permanent
burden upon the towns the poorer classes of the te-
nantry, who for some time previous had taken up their
residence there. He thought it a very great hardship
upon the towns that they were to be sacrificed to the
sins and failings of the agricultural proprietors. He
therefore moved they disagree with the Lords' Amend-
ment to which he had referred.
Mr. CALLAGHAN seconded the motion.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN hoped that the House would expe-
dite the work of charity to be performed by this Bill,
and that it would sanction the comparatively trifling
alteration which bad been made by the other (louse. He
did not concur in the Right Hon. Baronet's observa-
tions, for he thought that the alteration introduced was
one of a wise and beneficial nature ; and therefore he
should support the amendment as sent down to that
House.
Mr. CALLAGHAN said that those towns which had
driven the population of the rural districts away from
them, had driven them back to die of hunger and fever.
Sir J. GRAHAM (who was with difficulty heard) said
that the House did not seem to attach so much import-
ance to the Lords' amendments as he was disposed to
attach to them. He had concurred with the steps taken
by the Government in many of the provisions of this
Bill. The Noble Lord, in his speech of that evening, had
departed in no great degree from what he had stated on
a former occasion with respect to the operation of this
measure. He was at the same time of opinion
that the alterations which had been introduced in
the other House were calculated seriously to
impair the operations of the measure. He thought
that, under the circumstances of the case, the

House should not stand out upon wrt4 was merely
a matter of form, but it did appear to him that in this
instance there was a case of real and substantial griev-
ance on the part of the towns. The population of a
great portion of the rural district l. c 1 gone into the
towns, and a provision of the Bill had been framed t,t
hinder the unmitigated burden of their maintenance
being thrown upon the town alone. That provision had
been omitted by the Lords, and therefore the most,
serious inconvenience was likely to arise to those dis-
tricts with which this great influx of the rural popula-
tion had taken place. The prolongation of the term of
residence was, in his opinion, more illuser) than likely
to be beneficial, and therefore the Lords amendment
was likely to prejudice the operation of the Bill.
There could-be no doubt that towns like Liverpool and
Glasgow were great sufferers under the present system,
for instead of the starving population of Ireland re-
ceiving relief in their own country, or being supplhd
by the parish authorities with menrpy to emigrate to
America, they were sent over to English sea ports, and
owing to a defect in the existing law of removal, be-
came irremovable paupers. He would. therefore, re-
commend the Ilen. Member for Mallow not to press his
amendment to a division.
Sir GERGE GREY, who spoke in a very low tone
of voice, was understood to concur in much that bort
fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman why had just sat
down. He should be unwilling to cons' nt to the amend-
ment of the Lures, if it were calculated to it-fliet ieju,
flee upon this country ; but he, for one, i'l.l not wet-
eipate so distressing a result, althouLrh he did n..t
czether agree with the whole of the clause. If, how, ver.
it should be found to work badly, of cot.ne
would be amended ; and it wouN be upon tlt r
undergtanding that he s hcuid cons, nt to th-
omission of the clause. The importance of the Bill was
io great, and the advantages it was likely to confer upon
Ireland were so direct that it behevA the House to Fats
it without further delay.

Mr. LEFROY admitted that Ireland had to undergo
a great change before it could be placed in a prosperous
state, and he sincerely hoped this Bill would have the
eff, ct of producing that change. No doubt there were
.defects in the Bill, which experienc,- would demonstrate ;
but when these defects were discerned there would he
no difficulty in remedying them. He owned that had tLe
Bill stood in its original form he should have been seep
tical as to its success, and he must, therefore, thank the
Government for having accepted the Lords' amendments.

Sir R. H. INGLIS really-thought, after the large m 21..
jorit.y thst voted in favour of the clause on a former oc-
casion that the House would stultify itself if it allowed
,it to be committed. Besides, from what he gathered
from the few words just addressed to the House by the
Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary of State for the
Home Department, it did not appear to him that th(.
Right Hon. Gentleman altogether approved of the omit.-
iion, but excused himseLf for adopting the amendment
upon the ground that it might be altered if it was found
to render the Bill inoperative. Now, it did not seem to
him to be right to legislate in that manner, and he
thought that before the omission were acceded to, the
House ought to hare a conference with the Lords upon
the subject.
Lord C. HAMILTON could not consent to the
amendment of the Hon. Gentleman, the Member for
Mallow, and he trusted, therefore, that it would be with.
drawn. If the clause should be found to operate with
Lordship another opportunity would be afforded them to
amend it, and he thought they could not do otherwise
than adopt the course recommended by her Majesty'.
Government.

Mr. BELLEW thought that the House would do wdi
to accept the BPI as amended._

Lorl G. BENTINCK could not understand the argu-
ment, that this clause would tend to flood Engiand with
Irish paupers. He could not see how relieving the
paupers by electoral districts or by unions could tend to
send the paupers into this country. He did not wish to
go over the whole debate, but he certainly thought that
the smaller the extent of district over which the rats
were to be levied was, the greater care would there be
in employing the population of that district. He really
thought that if the House were to strain at these trifling
amendments, after having swallowed the amendments
introduced by the Lords in the year 1838, it would be
strangely inconsistent. He should most certainly sup-
port the Bill as amended,
Sir H. W. BARRON thought that the amendments
introduced into the Bill would go far to remedy the evil
of the Bill, when sent up to the Lords, of the extensive
rating. He did not think that there was any Hon.
Member unconnected with towns or boroughs of this
country who could bring forward any argument in favour
of union ratings. It was most unfair to the landlords
that they should be called np m to pay a rate for the
support of the poor over an extensive territory, in which
they could not exercise the slightest control over the ex-
penditure. There was at present a general and wide
spread alarm throughout the country at the pros-
pect of the high rates which they would be
called upon to pay. Numbers of the small farmers
were preparing to sell all their stock, and to emi-
grate from a land in such a state of misery
and wretchedness, and holding out no prospect of im-
provement. In this state of things he was greatly
pleased that the amendment had been introduced by the
Lords. He had always been the supporter of a poor-
law for Ireland, and the House was greatly to blame
that it had not passed a poor-law some years sine....
With respect to the paupers flooding this country, it was
as natural that the poverty of Ireland should follow the
property of that country as for the sun to shine at mid-
day. No law could prevent Irish paupers coming to this
country so long as the union existed between the two
countries. Ireland had been treated by Hon. Members,
and the press of the country, in a most insolent manner.

-
Mr. CtIRTEIS confessed to being one of those Hon.
Members, whose conduct had been insolent t.)w•irds
Ireland, if to be insolent was to speak in terms of repro-
bation of the habits and the character of the Irish peti-
ole. With respect to the amendments of th. House o'
Lords, he thought that there was a small clique or syc-
ion in the House of Lords, who would gladly silt:ill
out of the poor law altogether, and would gladly leave
!he poor to be supported by this country. He did not
think that the House of Lords dared to refuse to pass
the Bill if it were sent up with the amendments expunged.
If the Hon. Member should divide upon his motion, he
should most certainly vote with him.
Mr. P. SCROPE thought that it woald be better to
agree to the mendments, than risk the fate of the Bill
by sending it back to the Lords, where it was probable
that other amendments, of no more favourable a nature.
would be introduced. He did not anticipate any such
serious effects from the operation of the amended clause.
In the counties of Cork and Mayo, evictions had been
going on to a most alarming extent, several villages had
been actually raised to the ground for the purpose of
clearing the ground, and the unfortunate people were
east on the world, to find their resting place, afflicted
with famine, under the hedges, and in the ditches of
their native country, where their ancestors had re-
sided for many years in ease and comfort.
The electoral division system of rating was a premium
to the Irish landlords to clear their estates, from whence
the poor had been driven to the towns, and then they
would be shipped to the English port,?.—(" Hear, hear,''
from Mr. Fitzatephen French.) Did the Hon. Member
for Roscommon know the way in which mayors and
corporations subscribed half a crown per head to trans-
port the Irish paupers to the IGnglish shores.—(Hear,
hear.) This was a fact.

SHEIL said that he was Member for the borougl,
of Dungarvon, and he could nut help regretting that the
amendment introduced in the Lords was acquiesced in
by the Government.—(Haar, hear.) The representativ.
system was most defective, and he observed that the
towns always received more attention from the Legisla-
ture than the landed proprietors, because they were
better represented. He conceived that the Government
were right in their original intention, and he wished they
had persevered in it,
Mr. B. OSBORNE said as a constituent of the Hon.
Gentleman he could bear out the statements which he
had made with reference to the influx of paup. rs into
the town of Dungarvon. But if the Hen. Gentleman
felt so very strongly the defective state. of the repre-
sentative system, he, from his high position, was bound
to bring furward some definite proposition. The system
of rating was most unjust and unfair. He was convinced
that the Noble Lord would, in the next session of Par-
liament, have to come down and beg that the measure
should be entirely revised.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said, that from certain com-
munications which he had received, he considered that
tbere were some points in which the system of rates
might be revised—and when the proper time came, they
should be considered. With reference to the appeal
which had been made to him, respecting Lord Berehaven
and the charge which Mr. Scope had made, he had only
to say, that he had received a letter from Lord Bere-
haven, contradicting that statement. The Right Hon.
Gentleman having read the letter said, he deeply
regretted the alteration which the Lords had made, and
he feared it would greatly prejudice the good working of
the measure. But it was understood that the Lords had
given way in a great many things, and he therefore was
of opinion they ought not to peril the safety of the
measure.

Mr. POULETT SCROPE explained. His object in
making the statements referred to, was merely to
show the unwillingness of many landlords to bring the
Relief Act into operation, and in doing so, he instanced
the case of the workhouse of Bantry, to show the mis-
management which had taken place. He begged how-
ever to say, that the statement he made in reference to
Lord Berehaven was completely confirmed by six gen-
tlemen of Bantry, including the Catlinlie clergymen of
that place, and it was not upon newspaper authority he
made it.
Sir B. HALL called attention to a printed paper
ordered by the other House of Parliament, where 600
ejeettnents were issued at Willa sessions. He would
ere.l)v of d I! e
t large s
ask the Hon. Gentleman was this the romance which he
said was indulged in with respect to the Irish landlords 9
lie looked with great jealously on the conduct of some
Noble Lords in the other House with regard to this
Bill. and he thought it right to say that the Noble Lord
by whom the leadership was assumed had n -t taken a
very disinterested part with regardNobl to it.—(llear,
a pLp
loiredd t
o(L:ifn-d.
naoskouwtt-andaoctor reliefe
hear.) He would
Monteagle) if he himself would
have the principle be inclined to
ommypetarorllylerforo ft
htahteoffit.
csehlefq?u—er(,Laanudghret c
duration?—(Laughter.) have that relief limited to a
su
Would he be inclined
another Noble Lord alto year and a half's ton?—(Laughter.) There was
the principle of out-door
'0 (Lord Abinger) who stated thaL-
suspirion.—( near l
the importance of te
that he oor relief would lead to great im-
morality,looked upon such assertions with great
:eririsAhs
landlordsl
ongastheapt otohreadpdoeldlint,,,ro
stand they were fostered and looked after, but now
that this state of things no longer existed, and
that the 40s. freeholders were disfranchised, they were
consigned to death in Liverpool.--(Hear, hear.) At the
present moment the English towns were crowded with
Irish paupers—all of whom should be at home, and
supported by Irish landlords.—(Hear, hear.) The
whole rates to the poor in Ireland &win; last year, was