The Sun.
London, England, 1871-02-23 00:00:00

treatment to others they would have the same result. He
would now refer to the objections which had been raised
against the bill. It was said that to interfere in this
direction would destroy all responsibility, 'but this he
denied. They would no more destroy responsi-
bility than they could steal a keyhole. (A
laugh). They could simply be carrying out
what had already been. done partially by private associa-
tions. Another objection was that they would require an
. army of surveyors. He would !hew the fallacy of this
argument. There were 27,000 ships registered at British
ports. The surveyors employed by Lloyds sur-
veyed 12,000 or 13,000 of these. For this
Purpose they employed regularly 39 surveyors
and 16 others had partial employ. They had thus half
the work done, and besides this Liverpool did more of
the work ; the Cunard, Inman, and Peninsular and
Oriental Company steamers did not require it. A number
of steamers, carrying mails and passengers, already
received certificates from the Board 'of Trade, and
by a simple rule of three only 17 sur-
veyors would be required to do the remainder of the
work. Indeed, in making this estimate he was told by
men who had gone into and fully understood the subject
`that he had exceeded the number rather than understated
it. He was further met with the argument that it was
costly and would entail an outlay of £500,000 a
year; but in reply to this he had only to say
that the registering committee at Lloyd's, who started
without capital, and who made a small charge per ton
on the tonnage of the ship, had made a very large profit,
and he did not for one moment ask the Government to
undertake the work without a similar payment being
made as was made to the committee of Lloyd's In
whatever a man did on land, he came under the official
cognizance of an inspector, and he did not see what
plausible pretence there was for saying that that principle
should.not be applied to the sea. In Hull or Sunderland
a ship might be bought, the masts of which were so
rotten that four inches only out of a diameter of sixteen were sound, and the inside seam so rotten that an um-
brella could be driven completely into it. He
might buy a ship by auction for 4s. per ton
register, the value of a new ship being from £lO to £l4 per
ton; he might tar her over, and put her in an apparently
fit state, and no one could interfere with his sending her
to sea. It was a disgrace and, lasting reproach to the
Liberal party that although they had been in office during
the greater portion of the last forty years they had al-
lowed so large a number of British workmen to remain
without protection from the danger to which they were
exposed ; and he appealed to Parliament to embrace the
present opportunity for effectually legislating on the
question.
Mr. WHEELHOUSE seconded the resolution, remarking
that it was because ships were unclassed, and there was
nothing to render it necessary that their seaworthiness
should be looked to, that loss of life so frequently occurred
It was not a question of party, but a question of the
sailor who was sometimes obliged to go to sa when he
knew that the ship was utterly unfit for the voyage.
Mr. EUSTACE in moving as an amendment that
the bill be read a second time that day six months,
did not deny that something ought to be done
for diminishing the perils of the sea, nor that ships
sometimes went out of port in an improper
condition, but he contended that the remedy suggested
for the acceptance of Parliament was entirely unsuited to
the case. Any man who, either from negligence or for an
taking
proper care that she was in a seaworthy condition
committed a crime before God and man. But that was a
Matter for the criminal law of the country, and if the criminal
law did not deal witlr it it was a lasting disgrace to the
Legislature, He objected to handing
over th
inspection to an irresponsible surveyor, in whose podutwey ofr i
might he to give any dishonest shipowner a bill of indemnity.
It was but a very small minority of shipowners who sent
their vessels to sea in an unfit state. on. gentleman
Who had recently visited their constituents Hmust be aware
°f the feeling which existed against a certain class of per-
sons being placed under the inspection of the police. He
considered. it would be an outrage upon a class
file:)(3! men. who, whatever might
.be the faults
individual members, had raised the mercan-
to Marine of this country to its present position,
'idered be placed under Government inspection. He con-
the Ho the Bill was singularly inopportune, and
use
t asked to legislate for two reasons, first,
that the offences alleged were increasing, and secondly,
hat
deal were no other means of dealing with them. He
ve,nied that wrecks were increasing, but, on the contrary,
-`4"33rd's returns for the past ten years shewed that during
the last five years, with one exception the number of
ke eekB were below the average, and that in the preceding
rage-Ye„ars, with one exception, they were above the ave.
sheavingus that there had lately been a decrease
-7tohethuuMberof wrecks. For the first half of the year
e had been a very considerable decrease in the
111;11120"er,,e4 vessels lost. There had also been a decrease
of 20
tier cent in the number of lives lost at sea
,1 •
the n„.„_"-11, e last five years, and for the first half of 1870
fr'e°er was considerably below the average. His hon.
thou [tad referred to the number of ships which from
bad state had broken up when cast on shore; but it
was,„ a, singular fact that loss of life from this cause had
greatly diminished, 'and the number of lives saved had
materially increased. That, he ventured to think, shewed
that these ships which were cast ashore were in a better
condition than formerly. He considered that the bill was
inopportune, as there was a measure now before the House
which deals with the matter in a proper way. If
lation was required it should provide that ships hate are
reported to be unworthy should be surveyed, and detained
in the event of their being unseaworthy, and that any
Man who sent a vessel to sea in an unfit state should be
, Ruilty of a misdemeanour. He hoped that one of
the results of that discussion would be that her Majesty's
Government would see the necessity of taking. the
Matter into consideration. He thought that the registra-
tion of ships at Lloyd's by the Liverpool Association,
I.,;vhich the House was asked to approve, would be unsatis-
tactory, for there was a great deal of shipbuilding going on on
the Tyne, Weir, and Clyde, and the result would be that a
as,Parate book of rules would be required for each of these
VP'aess- Neither did he approve of the power being
ialifted to the bands of the Government. The results of
%e bill would he thought prove very injurious, and he wa
,:rei°Pinion that the hon. member had acted rashly in placing
gn shipping in the same list. The result of that
~„01ild be that foreign nations would adopt a code
of rules
nittheir own, and any man sending a vessel to a foreign
re would be liable and subject to rules of which he
liable know nothing, and which might render his vessel
vrue to fine and perhaps confiscation. Perpetual contro-
o:lies would also arise between this country and others
bit,"lBPutes which would spring up. He had, however, a
er objection than this; he believed that if the bill
tio4 . Passed there would be a complete stagna-
-14 In the shipping trade of this country. (Hear, hear.)
eiteaddition to this the rules for the classing of ships were
Limed over and over again, and the present rules at
so -Yus had not been in force twelve months. That being
w, the surveyors would stick closely to the rules. They
541.1 d have no desire to recognise improvements,
live the result, therefore, could not be beneficial.
5".44..Y. ship that was built containing any
thi,'„,°venient was built contrary to the rules. One would
tfrom the hon. gentleman's remarks that no ships
th„tl'• e unelassed until they became old; but the fact was
Many of the best ships had never been classed at
ts
Many of Green's India and Australia vessels
.
sto
hi not been so classed, and he once had a
belonging to himself which was built contrary
to 'Vies, and was not classed, but which went 20 voyages
as a ; after which the rules were altered, the vessel
lbill q, uld ie a.u, and subsequently sold to the Indian Government.
dwell on many other points, if he thought the
h.,N3 likely to become law, but he had no such idea.
Na-tglit point out how easily the conditions could be
404 Pa-e°, and he should like to know why there should
ecial regulation about coals. Coals were not the
if is ea•No they could have. A vessel with a thousand
she Iroll in her hold was not nearly so seaworthy as
e ~had • 1,250 tons of coal. The hon. member
1e .rliinsoll), had alluded to
tePly th cease of
i-)avid Malcolm, at Shields e
and in
Vet; to that, he might say he believed
tlac'areva's a sufficient answer in the hands of the
old is°f Trade at this time. That being the case it
qi,ntre been far better if the hon. member had put
th'llerBtion on the subject the other night, and ob-
1Z eo,„all official reply, instead of withdrawi it and
sk,,msaerrtng down and making an ex parte statement.. He
thm„stio„" this was a bill which would never receive the
tet,,,),°f the Legislature, and he opposed it because
the ooi" would be opposite to its intentions, because it
the Nett and inopportune, an
d would be injurious to
that 1
ry. He moved thatsilll:4lag interest of the count. -5 read that day six months.
4
11 tlk h-Tl-IBokTE seconded the amendment, and said that
tIN,: fully sympathised with what was said about
a‘''ol4ll37 and overloaded ships being sent to sea, this
to N not effect the object it had in view. He be-
-9 N
15 tliZ°llld tend to increase the dangers it was intended
If .„.140,,'• He pointed out the easy way in which
,l)e4tNs lns might be evaded, and said that
flab, passed he believed many of our
nok"wked would sail under a foreign flag.
neve the 'n'it the object kept in view, should be to bring
Nre4l;llg reBponsibility to 'the shipowner, instead of re-
etigts thaw of it ; and as the present measure did.
.n.ot
qad 114 tn 4., object, he advised the House to defer ieguna-
N4,Pei ,„"°.? introduction of the bill the Board of Trade
444.""er -11‘eu on the subject. A bill which dealt with the
41t 111'1, 4o eminently practical way, inasmuch
e 4,7., a it a misdemeanour for an owner to
vek7,ed to sea in an unseaworthy. state ;
tote, to be ador to call a surveyor if he. believed the
to a shohi, ;unfit tor the voyage ; and required that a re-
i4Bit tre'Lithbe__kept of the draught of water made at sea,
(L4le„t :17 party sought the interposition of the law,
u4lght be inflicted upon the actual offender.
the t olL'ltYtiBol:Ported the amendment, believing that
Nle it would
of the bill was inopportune,
t ta _, . _be preferable to wait for
I t.t;,`, • Thwnich had been prepared by the Board. of
great defect of the bill was that it included
hckt I°4 have tidal that d fi-
e,4
ay.ve river in the kingdom, e
tilaet deeililit every placed upon the, word "ship" by a
;le Ls of nin the courts of l consequently, the
q4cl L 4 surveyor would be completely overwhelming.
eard t
(j, 4,.arnitycio he present movement characterised as a
g„e to make the importation of coal impossible.
ath, , ,3-oVerllhleht interference in such matters
tth t,„7kt hi'itZic! more harm than good. It was, no doubt, a
aadr IP for a seaman who had entered into a c0n-
t%17.:4,
Bia,aooixindesbtleybelieved the ship to be unseaworthy,
he liable to punishmentthe
for declining to go
Itol'ln.oa
orYage, oughtto be empowered to have the
but aat competent surveyor on the ques
, same time it was well
tbtirea_these objections were frequently raised
price of the men when the vessel was laden

and ready for sea. How to meet these contending diffi-
Males was a matter not easy of solution, but he was of
opinion that the problem was not solved by the present
bill.

Mr. NoßwooD complained of the extravagant language
used by the hon. gentleman when starring it in the pro-
vinces. His hon. friend, in one of his speeches, had
alluded to, shipowners "as black-hearted villians who
insured their ships for three-fold value, and afterwards
set their wicked heads to work to wreck them."
(Laughter.) Unfortunately there were a number
of vessels which were sent to sea in an unfit
and an unseaworthy state, but that did not
justify such strong language being ' used, and
as a representative of a seaport town he pro-
tested against such statements going forth. On
referring to statistics he found that out of 79 vessels that
had foundered, 52 were small vessels under 100 tons
register, and of the 27 large vessels which had foundered
on our coasts during the year, 22 of them were ships in
ballast. The great danger to our colliers was not in going
into port, but in returning in ballast. Of the 19 colliers
lost last year 10 were vessels under 100 tons, and of
those five were in ballast. The largest proportion of
vessels which foundered were small smacks and fishing
vessels, and the cause was not attributable to rottenness.
He did not object to there being a fairly defined load line,
but the difficulty was how to avow it fairly. The great
object of the bill was to place all ships under survey ; but
if this was done, it would result in simply relieving ship-
owners of their responsibility. The hon. gentleman had
stated that shipowners now had no responsibility ;
but he denied that statement entirely, and there
was a special clause with regard to warranting
the seaworthiness of vessels. And further than this, the
very fact of a shipowner conveying a cargo was evidence
of his responsibility. It certainly would be a most dan-
gerous thing to relieve shipowners of their responsibility.
The bill was utterly impracticable ; but he hoped in the
Government bill, which he trusted would be passed this
year, that a clause would be inserted which would check
anything like fraud on the part of the owner. In conclu-
sion, he again protested against the statements made by
the mover, which he considered were outrageous.
Sir GEORGE JENKINSON could not agree with the hon.
member for Tynemouth (Mr. Smith) that the difficulty of
classing iron ships was a reason for the non-interference of
the House in this matter. That argument seemed to him,
if it went for anything, to amount to this—that
we were to sacrifice thousands of ships and
thousands of valuable lives for the purpose of
experimenting in ship-building. There was one point
which seemed to have been overlooked—at any rate it had
not been mentioned to-day—namely, the question of deck
loading, which seemed to him to be one of the most im-
portantpoints in the whole subject. He hoped, if the
Government did not allow this bill to be read a second
time, so that it might go into committee, when its faults
might 'be dealt with, that their own bill would deal
with the point he had mentioned. He hoped the House
would allow this bill to go into committee.
Mr. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE agreed with those who
had spoken before him, and recognised the humane
motives which actuated the member for Derby (Mr.
Plimsoll) in bringing this matter before the House. Their
business, however, was to consider whether the means he
proposed were the proper ones, and if they were adequate
for the purpose ; whether the evils they inflicted would
not be greater than the advantages which wonld accrue
from them ; and whether better means could not be found
for attaining the same end. He considered that the
Government had placed before the House better means of
obtaining the same end, and after givinc, his best atten-
tion to this bill, he was not able to advise the House to ac-
cept it and to pass the second reading. Neither was he
prepared to undertake on the part of the Government the
enormous and hardly profitable labour which he proposed
to impose on them. He could not agree with the hon.
member that it was a limited bill, because it would
require the Board of Trade to be continually over-
looking every vessel. He spoke of a yearly survey
but if surveyors were to be of any use at all, they must
be far more frequent than that. Then, with regard to
the load line, there was no such thing as laying down a
general abstract rule. It must be decided upon a special
survey of the ship by a surveyor appointed. by Govern-
ment, and this proved clearly what he said, that
the bill would entail endless and perpetual examinations.
He contended that before Parliament sanctioned such an
enormous amount of interference with the trade of the
country, and imposed such a vast and costly quantity of
inspection and control upon any department of the ao-
vernment, it must be satisfied that there was no other way
of effecting the purpose, and that the object
in view jtistified the means they were called upon to
adopt. How much good would be derived from the vast
amount of Government interference which the bill proposed
to impose ? The hon. member for Derby argued as if it
were necessary to assume that the lamentable loss of life
to which he referred would be put an end to, if his
measure passed into law. If that would be the case, he
would be the last man in the House to question the
advisability of passing such a hill, or to object to any
amount of trouble or responsibility which might be cast
upon any department of the Government. But would
that be the case if the bill were passed; and
supposing, too, that its provisions were admirably carried
out ? de contended that it would not, as there
were a variety of circumstances, such as collision at sea,
the carelessness of navigators, errors of judgment, and,
above all, the unavoidable perils of the sea, which no bill
of that kind could provide against. It came to this, then,
that under the bill, Parliament would have to establish,
at enormous cost, that which had been truly called an
army of officials—officials of a high-class and well-
paid character—in the hope of preventing a few
of the very limited class of accidents and
disasters which produced loss of life and property
at sea. But, he asked, if such a measure was
necessary, and whether there was no other way of meeting
in a reasonable manner the same objects? He ventured
to maintain that the Board of Trade had framed a measure
which would meet the objects contemplated by the hon.
member for Derby, inasmuch as it rendered it imperative
that a record of the draught of water in the ship's hold,
should be kept ; trade the owner liable to misdemeanour at
law if he sent an unseaworthy vessel from port, thereby
imposing upon him a serious responsibility, and enabled a
sailor to demand a survey if he stated that the
craft was not in a proper condition for the
voyage. The sailor would also be able to call upon the
Board of Trade to institute an inquiry, and anyone who
was interested in a vessel, who had good grounds for
thinking that she was unseaworthy, could also apply to
the Board of Trade for a similar inquiry. The difference
between the Government bill and the bill of the hon.
gentleman in this respect was that whereas the hon.
gentleman proposed to survey all ships, the Go-
vernment bill gave power, if necessary, to survey
and stop a vessel from going to sea. If the shipping
interests of the country were to be placed under that
minute and vexatious interference proposed by the hon.
gentleman he thought that it would defeat the very object
of the Bill by relieving shipowners of their responsibility.
He hoped the hon. member would not press his motion to
a division. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE hoped that the Government
would bring in a short bill containing the clauses
referred to by the Right Honourable Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade, and not em-
body them in the Mercantile Shipping Code. He
advocated the establishment of harbours of refuge, and
stated that one of the reasons for the loss of so many
ships was the incompetency of the officers. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. S. CAVE thought that any man who sent a
ship tb sea, knowing that it was in an unfit state, and
for the purpose of getting the insurance money,
was as much guilty of murder as any man who was ever
brought to the gallows. He wondered how, when a gale
was blowing, thy could sleep in bed. At the time he
held the office of President of the Board of Trade he had
three propositions laid before him. One was to
limit the amount of insurance, but that he be-
lieved was impracticable. Secondly, to make it
a misdemeanour to send a vessel to sea in an
unfit state ; and the third was the question of the
load line. The two latter points were now em-
bodied in the scheme of the Government, but with regard
to the general question as to whether the Govern-
ment ought to lay down a strict rule on all
matters of detail, he could not advise such a course. He
thought the proper way was after a casualty at sea to
collect all the information possible, and hold the inquiry,
and visit with severe penalties any one who was found
guilty of having committed a crime. He could not, there-
fore, support the bill of his hon. friend.
Mr. T. HUGHES should vote for the second reading,
because it was admitted by every one that legislation was
necessary. The bill of the Government contained 700
clauses, and was there anyone who thought it would pass
into law this session ? [Mr. C. Fortescue : Certain to.]
He was glad the right hon. gentleman was so confident
about it. He had not the same confidence, and
preferred to have two strings to the bow. Would the right
hon. gentleman separate from his bill the clauses dealing
with the matter now before the House, and pass them as
a separate measure, in the event of his inability to pass
through his own bill ?
Sir JOHN PAKINGTON said that unless the right hon.
gentleman did this he should vote for the second reading if
if it came to a division, not because he undertook
to approve of every part of the Bill, but because he would
give a vote which would stand as a record of his opinion
that something ought to be done in the matter. The sub-
ject had been placed in the back ground by the frequent
changes which had taken place at the Board of Trade,
and the only way to have it satisfactorily disposed
of was for the Government to undertake a measure, or for
the House to agree to an address praying for a Royal
Commission.

Mr. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE intimated that he would
accede to the suggestion of Mr. Hughes.
Mr. GREAVES opposed the Bill on the ground that it
was one of the most unworkable and impractical he had
ever seen.
After a few observations from Mr. A. Peel,
Mr. PLIMSOLL withdrew his bill, relying on the promise
of the Government to deal in a comprehensive way with
the matter in their measure.
The Game Laws (Scotland) Amendment Bill, the
Public Parks (Land) Bill, and the County Property Bill
were advanced a stage.

CHURCH RATES ABOLITION (SCOTLAND).
Mr. M'LAREN obtained leave to introduce a bill for the
abolition of Church-rates in Scotland.

LODGERS' GOODS.
Mr. H. B. SHERIDAN moved for leave to bring in a bill
to protect the goods of lodgers against distraint upon the
property of the landlord.
Leave was given, and the bill wus read a first time.
PARISH CHURCHES.
Mr. WEST obtained leaVe to introduce a bill to declare
and amend the law as to the rights of parishioners in re-
spect of their parish churches, and for other purposes
relating thereto.

NEW WRIT.
On the motion of Mr. GLYN, a new writ was ordered to
be issued for the city of Hereford, in the place of Colonel
Clive, who has accepted the Chiltern Hundreds.
The HOMO adjourned at twenty minutes to six o'clock.