The Sun.
London, England, 1847-06-05 00:00:00

J-iN I N JUNE 5, 1847.

EV

serve that the House ought to be fully informrd of the
grounds on which the Government acted. But it ap•
peered, from the course now pursued by lion. Members,
that they wished to come to this discussion without being
so informed. He could assure the House that every exer-
tion would be made to supply the House with the papers
at the earliest opportunity, and he hoped t. ust if they
were not laid upon the table on Monday they would he
in possession of Hon. Members before Friday. He did
not wish to follow the Hon. M, mber throughout his
argument, but he was convinced-that when the papers
were produced, the House would see that the interfer-
ence of the Government was not with the intention
of establishing despotism, but to secure the people of
Portugal in the full enjoyment of those liberties whim
had been secured to them by the charter of Don Pedro.
Lord J. MANNERS said, that the object of Hon.
Members in pres..ing forward the motion was that some
measures might be
bbeetireaokenitwaswhicho
two,ulladteb.e aTttheendHeodnwouitrh-
asrle
eeeffect
Member for Wycombe had told the House that
a collision had already taken place between her
Majesty's fleet and the forces of the insurgents.
It was because they were anxious that the cause of the
people of Portugal should not suffer by any delay, that
they wished to proceed with promptitude.
Lord H. VANE said that he would suggest to his
Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose to allow the
discussion to take place on Thursday next. The fliiuse
would then be in possession of the papers on Monday,
and be filly informed on the subject by Thursday.
Mr. HUME said, it he could bring on his motion cn
Thursday, us a substative motion, that it should take
precedence of the other business, he would consent to
defer it till then.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he understood the
Honourable Member wished to bring on his motion
on the day fixed for the Supply, but if he would bring
it on on Thursday he would be ready to postpone all the
other business. The Honourable Gentleman had
mentioned that a collision had taken place between
her Majesty's forces and those of the Queen cif
Portugal. His (Lord John Russell's) im-
pression, from the accounts in the papers, was
that the collision was between the forces of tue Queen of
Portugal and some German vessels.
Mr. HUME said that under these circumstance he
wished to give his notice of motion for Thursday next.
The subject then dropped.
Mr. COLLETT would ask the First Lord of the
Treasury, whether it was the intention of her Majesty's
Government, during the present Parliament, to supply
the deficiency in the number of Members of this House
caused by the disfranchisement of the borough of Sud-
bury?
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Government had
no intention whatever of bringing in such a Bill dur
ing the present session of Parliament, nor did he see
any reason for the introduction of such a Bill, or that
there was any necessity, unless a speci:il case was made
out for giving two new Members to the House of Cum-
mons.7( Laughter.)

Mr. COLLETT then begged to give notice that he
should shortly move for leave to bring in a Bill to make
Chelsea a borough.—(Laughter.)
THE WELLINGTON STATUE.
Mr. CRAVEN BERKELEY begged to ask the
Noble Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests,
whether there was any intention of removing the Wel-
lington statue from the arch opp ,site to Hyde-
park? Whether here had been any communiett-ion
with the Committee appointed to place it there? And
how long it would be before the statue was removed
from its present site? _ _ _

Lord &ORPETH. said, that in reply he had to say.
that it was the wish of her Majesty, that the statue
should be removed from the arch. That intimation
had been given to the Committee, and in reply they had
stated that it was their impression that sufficient care
had not been taken to guard the scaffolding about the
arch. When they intended to remove the statue he
could not say, for ho was not acquainted with the state
of the Committee's funds, hut he might sly that both
the sculptor and the architect wero di.isatisfied with the
effect of the statue as it now stands. And he had only
further to say, that h. .r Majesty had signified her plea-
sure whenever the House should vote funds for the
completion of the arch, according to th. original deign,
that any further decorations placed upon it should be
illustrations of the achievements of the Duke of Wel-
lington, and should mirk the sense of the country of his
merits and deserts.—(Hear, hear.)
REDUCTION OF DUTY ON SALT IN INDIA.

Viscount SANDON put a question to the President
of the Board of Control, whether he had received in-
telligence of a notification published by the a.puty
Govairnor of Bengal, on the 31st day of March, 1847, by
which on and after the Ist day of April, 1847, the prices
of salt in store in Calcutta, manufactured under the G.-
vernment monopoly, and the duty on imported salt, were
to be reduced, but unequally, and without Rodeo to the
importers ; and if so, what steps the Government in this
country are prepared to take in respect of such enact-
ment?

Sir JOHN CAM lIOBFIOUSE had to inform the
Noble L ird that it wai perfectly true that the Indian
Government had thought tit to reduce the duty on native
and British imported salt. The best thing, however,
which he thought he could do. was to present to the
[louse the papers from the Indian Government which
related to that notification. A great mistake had been
made with respect to the (hit:, upon British and upon
Leave salt, as it was stated Oat th.y were nor the ,taint ~
whereas the duty upon both was reduced 25 rupees.
:11111T t Pona Ecir British salt. r vila;;;;E: the t
of Bengal had made an exception with respect to a cer-
tain diwription of.salt, but the papers which he hatend.d
to pr sent to the House (and he held a copy of them in
his hands), would givu the fullest information on the
subject. It was stated on the 25th of March, 1846, that
an alteration would be made after the Ist of April, 1847,
so that the parties were not taken by surprise, and lipt-t
have been Wily prepared for the change which had taken
place. _

In reply to Sir JOHN PAKINGTON,
Sir J. C. HOBEIOUSE said ihat the change had not
taken place as a counter blow to anything which had
been dune.

WELLINGTON STATUE.
Lord J. MANNERS wished to know whether it was
the intention of her Majesty's Government to commence
the pedestal of the Wellington Statu, before an estimate
was suhmitted to Parliament of its expenses.
Lord NIORPETH said that if the plan and estimates
were ready they would most certaink be submitted to the
House ; and it was not the intention of the Government
to remove the statue from its present position until the
pedestal was ready.
MARY DAWSON,
Mr. FERRAND said that it was his intention to
bring the committal of this case at an early day before
the House.

Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN wished to know whether
Governm,nt intended to proceed with the Agricultural
Statistics Bill this session?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
in answer to the quesii.m of the lion. Gentleman 'he
Member for Cuckerinouth it was quite true that a repot-,
had reached the Government that the potato disease
had again made its appearance, but he thought that it
was too early at present to form any certa'n julgment
upon the subject, as last year the great attack of the
potato disease did not come until Joly. In answer t..
the Hon. Member who had last sp ,ken, the Government
did not intend to proceed w th the Agricultural Statistics
Bill in the course of the present session.
Mr. OSBORNE said that there were two different
sorts of potato, the early and the late, and the early
potato had shown symptoms of a d:sease entirely dif
recent. from the disease of last year. He thought that
the Government ought to use some treasure to hinder
the people of Ireland from sowiroz the quantity of po
tatoes which they were at present putting down, as the
disease app,..ared bk.ly to spread.
Mr. LABOUCIIEttE said that there was a body
c tiled the Agricultural Society of Dublin, which took a
great interest iu the general agriculture of the country.
He thought that it would he far better for such a body
to 'give advice than for the Government to take upon
itself the great respothibility of advising 'tat cours
the peoplo sh.,u:d pursue upon such subject.
Sir H. W. BARRON said that if the people were enc,Hl •
raged to sow any substitute for the potato, it should be
tho one which had Peen recommended in the Gardener's
Chronicle, namely, haricot beans. These Deans formed
an article of fool to the lower classes of people in very
large districts of France, Spain, and Portugal.
Mr. E. B. ROACH said that when he had left Ireland
a few days hence, he hal not heard any report of the re-
appearauce of the potato disease. He had been round
100 acres sown. with nearly every sort of potato, and in
not one single instance had any tendency- to di-ease been
observed. Ile thought it would be the better way to put
in crops of late turnips, which he had done with great
success last year.
Mr. OSBORNE explained, and the subject dropped.

CHARGES ON VESSELS:
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in reply
to a question from Mr. EWAR,T. stated that an arrange-
ment had been made last year in reference to this sub-
ject.

PUBLIC WORKS IN IRELAND.
Lord d. BENTINCK said he wished to ask his Right
Hoe. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchepuer whether
ho was in a condition to inform the House what would
be the expense of the staff employed on the public works
in Ireland, or whether the cost of the rations was 2d. or
20. each ? Also, what WAS like ly to be the cost of
5,800 clerks and overseers,
last year, which, if it equalled that of
would amount to about 730,0001.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that it was
to the first question of his Noble Friend, but he was
perfectly impossible to give a direct answer
quite ready to lay on the table of the House the last
return wolich had ~.een received. He could not say
-xitetly, at LiW pre,ent inonient, wh-it the outlay was
last :4 !arday.,.re r :cow, had viniel from 2i to a
half, envy, but he 11,1i,ve.1 that the average wa, p tiny.
Lord G. BEN TINCK said that they had had the re-
turn of the expense of the staff up to the last statement,
and it was there asserted that the whole, or at least a
great number of the labourers had been dismissed, and
he desired t) know whether there had been any pro-
portionate reduction of the staff. By the last returns,
it appeared that the weekly cost was 14,2001., and thil
the number of rations issued doily was 2,200,000,000
It would appear by this that the yearly expenditure in
this department alone, would be upwards of 700,000/.
and this, he thought, r, quired explanation.
The CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER said
that he did not state what the cost of each return was,
but he stated that the whole cost would be 2,600,0001.

IRISH RAILWAYS.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, in answer to a ques-
tion, that it was not his intention to proceed with the
vote for Irish railways on Monday next.
Mr. BERNAL OSBORNEPORTUGAL gave notice that, in the
event of Mr. Ilume not persisting in his motion, re-
specting Portugal, he would move, on Tuesday next,
that it was hostile to liberty, Bud injurious to the i4ll,

tereFts of this country, to enter into any convention,
having I,pr its object the upholding of any dynasty in
foreign countries, or suppressing public opinion in
them.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL explained to the Hon. Gen-
tleman that his motion c uld not be taken before the
other motions which had been fixed for Monday.
Mr. S POO '• ER stated that be had given notice that
on the order of the day being read on Monday. he
should call the attentiun of the House to the recall of
Sir Eardley
COSTS TAXATION BILL.

On the motion of Mr. HUME, this order of the day
was postponed until next Friday.
LO k N DISCOUNT BILL.

On the order of the day for the third reading of the
Loan Discount Bill,
Mr. GISBORNE said that he had been informed that

there would be very little discussion upon this Bill, and
if that were the general 11.TISO of the House, he was
quite willing to abid..- by it, but if the Chancellor of the
Exchequer were to make another speech, and other
getrlemer were to speak, he thought it but fair that he
and others should also give their opinions upon this mea-
sure and the Bill of 1844.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that hP had never said that this order of the day was to
go off without any discussion. He had heard that there
would not be any prolonged debate on this subject, but
he had never stated that fact to which the lion. Member
had alluded.
Mr. GISBORNE said that he was sorry to have mis
represented his Right Honourable Friend, but when the
statement that this was to be the first order of the day,
had been made, he was not present, and he had heard
that there was to be no discussion upon it at all.
Aft: r a few words from Sir G. GREY, which did not
reach the gallery.
Lord GEORGE BENTINCK said that it was no in-
tention of his to protract the debate, as he understo..d
that the matter wend be taken up by abler hands, and
he had only spoken for himself. when he said that there
would he no debate upon this measure. He had in-
tended to bring in a Bill to repeal the Batik charter of
1844.

Lord J. RUSSELL said that if there were any inten-
tion of bringing any measure forward, for the alteration
or repeal of the Bank charter of 1844, it had better be
brought forward in the shape of a motion.
Sir R. PEEL said that it would he better to bring this
matter forward in a more substantial way, and he for one
should not trouble the House with any observations OM
this oce,sion.
Mr. BERKELEY said that the better course would be
to allow the Bill to pass without any discussion.
After a few words from Mr. HUDSON, which did
not reach the gallerr,
Sir R. PEEL said a few words in explanation.
Mr. BARING, said he thought that the discussion
had better be taken upon a practical measure.
Mr. SPOONER said that he wished, if he went at all
upon the subject. to enter upon it luny, which he cold.'
❑ot do then. He thought that the debate had better be
adjourned to another time, provided the Noble Lord the
11,,mber for Lynn would give an assurance that the
subject wouti he again brought forward in another shape.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he at first understood
that the discussion wi old be up, n the Bill itself, but he
afterwards understo, that the discussion would be taken
upon a more substantive measure with reference to the
Bill.

Lord G. BENTINCK said that he had another friend
who intended to bring furward a Bill for the Repeal of
the Baok Charter of 1844, and it that Hon. Friend did
not do so he sh iuld do so himself.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that he was happy to inform the House that 2,678,0001.
had been paid op already upon this Bid.
Mr. SPOONER urged that the Right Hon. Baronet
should not have refused the offer which was made to
pay up the money upon this Bill. That refusal had en-
couraged the bankers to believe that the Right Hon.
B ironet had a sufficiency to meet the demand upon
him. He ought to have foreseen the consequences ~r
his measure, and he ought to have informed the con-
tractors for this loan that is demand wiiulif be made
upon the Bank, and not have kept them in perfect ig-
norance upon this subject. The refusal of the Right
Hon. Blrenet to receive the money at the time when he
was making a detwind upon the Bank, was not in •ic-
cordance with sound policy, or even fairness to those
who were making the advances.
The CHANCELLOR of the F,XCIIEQUER said,
that it was quite true that at the time he refused thr.
money that he did not think he should want it, nor was
there any circumstance which he could foresee which
would lead him to the belief that he should want it until
the proper time for payment came.
Mr. NEWDEGATE rejoiced that the debate of this
day had called I firth from the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer a more favourable bulletin with respect to the " Old
Lady" in Threadneedl -street, than he was able to issu,
upon the ()evasion of the la-t debate. He thought it har.l
to saddle upon the Chanc.dlor of the Exchequer the
blame of causing the pressure which had existed on the
money market,
The Bill was then read a third time and passed.
PRISONS BILL.—ADJOURNED DEBATE.

On the order of the day for the adjourned debate on
the Prisons Bill.
Mr, EWAR t slid that he differel from the Hon.
Member for Southwark (Sir Wm. .Mulesworth), wk:,
,tated in his speech last evening that he should nut ha'
been surprised to have heard of some calamity
„
rants ot that wretched colony. He did not think that
the vengearce of Heaven. if he might use so
strong a term would have fallen upon the guiltless inha-
bitants of that place, but rather the dire visitation woulii
have fallen upon the heads of the legislators of the mo-
ther country. When he brought forward his m.,tion in
the list session the Houso was cairited out ; hut he wit.
fully convorcird tha7 rune that a period would sow.
arrive when the subiect would be brouAt more fulls
anal .eriou:ly under the consideration of the House 1-).
the Government itself; and those anticipations were
now fully borne out, and the Government had brought
forward a measure, embodying almost the identical plan
which it w,s th,•n his intention to have proposed to the
House, hat it not, been that the then Government care
lessly allowed the House to be counted out up in
so important a subject. With respect to the Btli
now before the House, he approved of the proposition
as carrying out the separate system as at Pentonville,
but he disapproved of the proposed plan of making the
convicts work together in gangs; he eniirely disapproved
ot any system of congregating together those persons
It Iv is an admitted principle that the convicts, when they
entered the prison, should see as little as possiule of each
other. After the prison discipline hal ben fully carried
out on the convict, was it not an absurd thing to bring
the convict out of the influence of this separate system.
place him along with numerous others of a similar or
worse character than himself, and thus afford him

the full-st opportuni y for failing back into those vicious
habits from which he had been wean •d by the influence of
:he separate .system? lie regretted, therefore, that the
Govertimient had thou.2.ht proper to introduce this sys-
tem into their plan. The system of assignment was a
g.aid sy stein only on account of its being in effect s
.eparate system, and upon that ground infinitely supe.
rior to any system which proposed to deport the con
vies en manse. and in a congregated and gregarious
body to one c ,long or penal settlem-,nt.. He did not
think that much weight was to be attached to the d
of the
,julges upon this point. They were in
their habits entirely microscopic. and it wasAuite as
natural to suppose that the powers of a microseope were
similar to those of a telescope, as that the minds of
persons long habituated to the study of the subtleties
of legal lore should be supposed to be able to give a
,orrect opinion upon so enlarged a question as th it of
,ransportation. And with al deference to these Learned
Judges, he wool! say that they were the last persons
in the cowttry to whose authority he would deter upon
a question of this kind. With two exceptions, one in
Germany and the other in Prussia, the des
t.nguished men who had turned their attention
to the subject were in favour of separate con.
tinealen', as a . great means of reformation.
Many Hon. Gent lernam did not distir gnish properly be
Neen s..parate and silent confinement. S,parate cori-
tiii,ille
nt (.14i not restrict communisation with others, as
the prisons r had intercourse with those who were likely
to do him good and not evil ; but the silent system was
wore severe in nature, as the person so incarcerated
had but little communion with others. He entirely co-
incided with that part of the Right Hon. Baronet's state.
went which bad reference to employing the prisoners at
fixed labour, a system which had been introduced with
toe best •-fl ets among the prisoners intrusted to the care
of Captain Macconoehi. Although he dill, red with some
of the details of the measure, he generally concurre
in it, because it proposed the system of separate
confinement, improved discipline, and because it did not
destroy hope in the minds of the guilty, lb:- if they de-
stroyed hope in the minds of these unfortunate persons,
they would find that all their exertions at imprisonment
would be futile.

Mr, (WYE had no intention to object unn.cessarily
to the inievaire of the Government, and trusted he might.
to the course of his address, be enabled to assist the
Government in some of the details which were to be en-
countered in a plan fraught with so many difficulties as
that of convict discipline. He regretted that the Right
Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark (Sir. W. Moles-
worth) had reflected so severely upon the conduct of his
Noble Friend Ltrd Stanley. He had matured a plat:
of convict discipline, but if it had failed, surely the Nobl.
Lord ought not to be blamed for the faults and failure
of his agents, and they were selected from those who
seemed best adapted for carrying out the system he had
proposed. It seemed to him, also, that the Hon. Baronet
had not paid that attention to the Right Hon. Baronet',
,peech. which it deserved from one who differed with the
plan he proposed. When his Noble Friend acceded t.
office, the system of convict discipline was in a most
imperfect sta,e, and he did his best to remedy it ; and
he appealed cootidenly to the public to pass judgment
upon the course which his Noble Friend adopted, because
he believed it was carefully revised, and would have
been most successful, if it bad been properly carried out.
lie had no intention to advert unnecessarily to the con-
duct of the late Sir Eardley Wilmot, but he could not
in.lp stating that tha' gentleman, in a communication to
:11r. Gladstone, dated July, 1846, spoke favourably of the
system of probation passes. and of the good which bad
been eff cted by his system. With respect to Major
Childs. he thought it right to state that he had
been recommended to his Noble Friend as a gallant
officer of M4rines. as a good di,ciplinarian, and as likely
to till the offi,!e with adva,nta te, which his Noble Friend
had found some difficulty in filling. The office was that
of a gaoler, with tut society, as it was in an isolated part
Of the colony. But his Noble Friend ought not to be
blamed lor the conduct of Major Childs, because he had
appointed him under the belief that be was the best per
son to fill the office; and here he ought to state, that hi.
Noble Friend had appointed persons without favour, and
with a sole de.ire to promote the public service. He (Mr.
Hope) was in favour of giving the convicts, when they
reached their destination, probation papers, because, if