The Sun.
London, England, 1812-02-05 00:00:00

STATE OF IRELkND-ADIOURNED DEI3ATE.

The Order of the Day being read for resuming
the Adjourned Debate on the State of Ireland, :4-,
Sir JOHN NEWPORT apologised to the House-for
trespassing upon their attention at that early period ;
a trespass which he certainly should not have corn.
mated, but that he was prevented by ill health from
delaying any longer. He should not even have
come down to the House on the present occasion,
if he did not find it necessary to defend his conduct
against some charges brought against him in his ab-
sence. He had said, and would still maintain, that
a proclamation was not law.; it was only a state-
ment of what the law was, and if it did not state it
truly, the people were at liberty to dispute its au-
thority. He had always held up to the Roman Ca-
tholics, that body which he considered as so greatly
aggrieved, that it was in that House they were
seek redress, arid it never should be induced to turn.
them away from its doors. There were agitators in
former times, who had done so; and, he was sorry
to add, that in more recent instances, the Govern-
ment itself had become agitators, and again attempted
to turn them away. He submitted to the House what
an effect must be produced by such conduct towards
so large a portion of the population of that king-
dom. It was always his endeavour to keep their
eye as much as possible on that House, and that
upon a plain principle, that though their claims
might be refused in one instance, yet as bodies
grew wiser every day, and the most rooted opinions
were liable to change in time, that one instance
should not be considered as final. A Right Hon.
Gentleman had asked on a former night, why he
did not attend the Privy Council in Ireland ? The
reason was, that he was so far removed from Dub-
lin as not to receive the summons in time; if he
had received it, he' would have gone and protested
against the mischievous insanity of their proceed-
ings. As to the opinions of the Judges, which
were cited in defence of Government, there were
such things as contradictions to the decisions of in-
ferior courts, by the dernier resort; and as to those
of the Law Officers, there were two contrary opi-
nions of the Attorney •General on the table of the
House, which did nor afford a very favourable spe-
cimen of their accuracy. He deprecated the prac-
tice of selecting detached paragraphs as proof of the
tendency of works, and thought it rather too much
to expect that those who suffered under injuries
should possess all the temper and suavity of men
who were fattening in office. He then related, a
case of a Catholic wicow, who died in Waterford,
and bequeathed a great part of her property to the
poor of that City, without any dislinctiOn of reli-
gion, but whose good intentions in that respect
were defeated by the Commissioners of Bequests,
by whose authority the will was set aside. On
looking to the statute law for an interpretation of
the Convention Act, he found nothing like a law
to prevent meetings for the purpose of petitioning;
he found indeed the word pretence, but that word
was to be taken in its common acceptation. He
deprecated strongly the ides of driving the Catho-
lics to petition by general assemblies, not by dele-
gation, and concluded with exhorting the House to
exercise its wisdom and temper on this great, -mo-
mentous, and important subject.
Mr. CHARLES ADAMS thought the question might
be divided into two parts ; the one political, the
other religious. With respect to tire political part,
it had been stated, that in case of the passing of
the measure, one half of tire Members 'might be
Roman Catholics; but though it was possible the
proportion might be still greater, he apprehended
that it was the greatest injustice to give any immu-
nities to them without an intention at some future
period to give all. On the religious part of the
subject he thought the Roman Catholic doctrines
were inadmissible ; but he was happy to say, that
though he had come down to the House strongly
prepossessed against the conduct of the Right Hon.
Gentleman, (Mr. W. Pole), his opinion was entirely
altered in that respect, and he agreed, that he had
only done his duty. He complimented the elo- '
quence of Mr. Canning on the preceding night,
though he could uot agree in many of the seoti-
merits ; it was—

" Satis eloquentioe—parum sapientix."

Satisfied as he is with the defence which was-made
for the Irish Government, he should vote against
the motion.

Mr. \V. FITZGERALD said, that the vote which
be should give against the motion of the Noble Luid
was not grounded on the arguments urged against it
by the Gentlemen who'had already delivered their
sentiments. Ar the same time he agreed fully, that

dining the ne.ndino judicial nrcireertir-i-os_ they should

not go into a Committee. An Hononrab7e and
and Learned Gentleman who spoke last nieht, had
declared, that ti,e present vas a favourable opoortu-
nitl for so doing; from that judgment he cti&red.
His opinions were now, as formerly, fnourahle to
the Catholic claims, which iltt thou` ht must at some
time be acceded, Out never witeoet
securities. It had been stated in another place, that
we should surrender at discretion ; but to such lan-
guage he must object, as unt-K,ceniin,e whether u,ed
by an advocate of the Catholics or not. thortelit
he might be justified in opposiug ti.e motion from
the manner in which it was supported. Wit!) re-
sped to the Right Honourable Baronet's arguments
against shutting the doors upon the Cie hones, no
one could deny that he was right, and he reig-):
have spared himself the trouble of drei;ing so long
upon what no one would have contradicted. lie
then entered into a defence of the Irish Govet tit-nem,
which, he maintained, had pursued legitimate cj
jects by legitimate means. No-one could think this
decision final;. indeed, if it was to 'be final, his
Lordship seould hare his vote. The question Wa
whether, after the proceedings of last year sanci-
oned by that House, and the .silence of the lion.
Gentleman opposite, afer the trials of Dr. She idan
and Mr. Kirwan, and after the declai a ion of the
Judges of the Court of King's B,..nch, the Irish Go-
tnent had or had riot acted in centormiv with
the law ? He adverted to the observations which
had been made on the conduct of the Loid Chief
;.,Justice of the King's Bench in Ireland, whom he
declared to be as venerable an individual and of as
high and unimpeached a character as the highest of
those who
.had dared to arraign him. With re-
spect to the Attorney and Solicitor-General of Ire-
land, even the most factious writers had not dared
to impeach the. purity of their principles ; but they
certainly bad nut been treated in that House with
the respect which was their due. In particular, of
the character and talents of Mr. Bushe, every Irish-
man was justly proud, and he (Mr. Fitzgteald)
would not hear any imputation upon that Gentle-
man, without bearing his testimony to its falsehood.
He contended, that the Convention in Dublin was,
illegal, and might become dangerous. It might
tend to the dissolution of that Union, of which
he would say, that although there were some ho-
nourable men who opposed it, and some honour-
able men who lamented that it had ever taken place,
yet that there were very few wise men, in his opi-
nion, who would propose its repeal. It had been
urged, that Lord Fingal was not a man who would
countenance any thing which he thought dangerous
to the State. Of this truth he was firmly per-
suaded ; but a reference to all history would show
that the honourable men in whom revolutions of
every kind originated, had seldom been enabled to
preserve their legitimate influence during their
progresS. The horrors of the French Revolution-
were produced by the erring virtues of men who, iu
the first instance, lent themselves to the plans of
reformers,' and who were subsequently unable to
stem the torrent in which they unexpeledly found
themselves involved. The violence shewn by the
Catholics, both in their conduct and in their writ-
ings, bd been such as even to alarm many who
had pledged themselves to the support of their
claims. He should give the motion his decided ne-
gative._

Sir J. SERRIGHT, while he professed himself a
friend to Catholic emancipation under such condi-
tions as those who were much better judges of
the subjel than himself might deem it necessary
to impose, was firmly persuaded, that had the Irish
Government acted in any other way than that in
which they had done, they would have been
guilty of a gross dereliaion of duty. The state- '
ment made last night by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man opposite (Mr. Pole), had satisfied him that
the condua of the Irish Golrernment had been re--
markably temperate and forbearing. That of the
Catholics, on the contrary, seemed to him to haVe
been very reprehensible. They had assumed a high
tone, and a menacing posture,, very ill befitting
them, and had organised a system which, in His
opinion,was replete with danger to the community.
Mr. C. WYNNE could not conceive how it was
possible that any man who agreed in the main fact,
that the State of Ireland was such as to require the
consideration of Parliament, could resist the motion
of his Noble Friend, to whatever cause he might
impute the existence of that state. He entered into
detail of the proceedings of the Irish Government,
which, in his opinion, were highly culpable, and
particularly condemned as insulting the use of the
word Condescension,' in the communication from
the Lord Lieutenant to Lord Fingal. Adverting to
the conviction of Mr. Kirwan, he observed that he
would not arraign the conduct of the Judges, but it
was possible that the case might be. differently de-
cided by that higher tribunal, before which he he-
lieved, and hoped to God it would be brought. The
Construction of the Convention Act was most forced.
It might be applied, with equal justice, to every one
who heard him, and who had been appointed as a
delegate, to consider the propriety of making a road
or a canal. • The sentiments of the people of this
country were very much changed on the subject.—
He appealed to ell who mixed in society, whether
it was not the general opinion that attention ought to
be paid to the claims of the Catholics; under certain
securities, the nature of which would be the proper
subject of consideration in the Committee, for which
he should feel it his bounden duty to vote.
Mr. MANNERS-SUTTON, in .2 very eloquent and
argumentative speech, opposed the motion, as. far
from calculated to tranquilize. the existing agitation
in Ireland. He strongly reptobated the obseiva-
tion made last night by a Learned Gentleman (Sir
A. Pigott), that it was some consolation, under the
afliding circtunstances in which his Majesty was
placed, that at least a bar had been removed to the
consideration of the interests of helard ; thereby
dearly implying, that the interests of Ireland had
not been attended to by his Majesty, than which a
more unfounded statement could not well hwe
been made, as must be manifest to; ail who recol-
lented how many privileges had been'grented to the
Catholics of that country du•ing the present reign.
In refusing to accede, at the present moment, to
the claims of the Catholics, he chstinetly disclaimed
(what had been ascribed to other Honourable Gen-
tlemen who were of his opinion), imputing to them
that they were traitors to their King and enemies to
their country. Nor did he impute to the Catholics
(as their advocates had so injudiciously done, that
they were disposed to wrest that by force whicti

cufntion to be, ill hi; orin;on, on,- or x.
rather than of —;1 jo,oic, to C
he one side, and of securi.), to he t •`1
ments of. Chun ii St,!e on the other.

not ',Tree to 0-I-Int 'he cltholics tuj i., •
6 0 .
kvitlLm_c ar,y acct without g.k.it,r y rkdg,.
on the sln.jvc-:,-hf.f., re,i.Jrk that no ;.,,f
had b,2on yct p,iptt:d out as the prorei oi:e It
ix'‘v; It-1-,tyit!eci that SOMe.provisiou of that
nator,-.!huht b:-.4...tlicited by the coilisio" of cp,.,.!tis
in a Cotmoitt.ee; but as hs: couceivcd such a p•o,
cerchag was Caletildk'd to wlitate rather than to
Ira' ctuli~e, Ita nit....LA oppose it. fie rust a •,-) np,
p se he motion for a Cokr:rnit tee, as 'hat inqtioll
was :',oll,t2L'Acii with a conduct t
G,,vetaurnt in .Lelind; for, he btli;:iNed that a Go=
veronlent wow triodetatt, and (- sc),?;e. pot-;!jae

't r'
that con,,try. delci.ded•the co:y.luct
of fi Nui)le oear of his (Lord Cliatt
celtor Manne:-s) wnich 'ha? 'oven so unjustly
tacked. Vinhout presuming to possess as much le•
galrknowledg-.1 as fte tion. ani Learned tie„tico •:1
who had last night s:,okoti, he il,:fer-n.,d !..irus7:.i sa-
tisfied with the unanimous opiniz), ,:t
the Cowl of King's Bench i1)11-c:aP(1,
strui-lion of Convention Act. .1!

COn.

. ~ii,'}r

was Lot coat cot wi h that o,)hiion, l e 1n) ej to
God with the Hon. and I.,ned Gen t %.%
just spoken, that the case would come to d:;72ier
resort of adjudication. There was Irtt one other
question to consider, that of titan. He could !..nrd-
ly conceive a w'OISC time•for :t conces- ion 50,.! as
ihat proposed than the presen. Oi this the sr,te
Ireland was sufficient evidence. The fueling i of
the Catholics themselves, man:fsted in the post-
ponement of their petition to Parliament, was an ad-
ditional proof of the fait. To their authority he
bowed, and he would say in concurrence with'
them; that the present time was most et lit.
_ _

Mr. PARNELL. warmly supported the motion of
his Noble Friend. The Catholics were entitled to
their rights, unless it could be shown that tte- grant-
ing of those rights would ilvolve in danger the.
general interests of the country. They oniy claim-
ed that, an abstinence frojn claiming which would,
in his opinion, render them unworthy the name of
British subjeqs. He commented with some seve--
rity on the speech of the Right Honourable Secre-
tary for Ireland. It was made up of Newspaper
statements from the beginning to the end, and be
thought it a great hardship that the whole of the
Catholics should be condemned on such evidence:
He contended they had been greatly misrepresented,
and entered into a general history of their conduat,.
which he strenuously defended, on the ground that
no other course had been left open to them but that-
which they had endetivoured to pursue. The Right
Hon. Secretary had accused the Catholics of a wil-
ful violation of the law ; now. what,,ver might
be the Right Hon. Gentleman's opinion as to What
the law was, he might conceive h possible for tha•
Catholics to put a different construction en it. He;
however, appeared to have no feeling of this sort;
and in no respell did it seem that he had thken
proper view of the subica which he ought to have
taken, in the discharge of his duty. 1-I,e_; the Catho-
lic Committee been ecrtnitted to meet, he believed.
that the business for which they proi.ersed to as*
wmble would have been completed in one or IWO
short sittings. He was of opinien (het they wer°
sincerely disposed to ad in such a manner as t°
guard against any such refleaions being thrown two
their proceedings, as had previously been throAvo
upon the Catholic Committee. For these, and a
variety of other reasons, it was his intention to vot°
for the motion.

Lord CASTLEREAGH, in looking to that question
which it was understood would be •particularly the
subject of discussion in the Committee, if the House
consented to go into it, did not materially differ hl
=principle from the Noble Lord who tad brougll
the subject forward, though he distinctly deified
that any pledge had- been given at the Union thac
an alteration should take place. It had merely bceu'
'held out that the question might, at some future
period, be entertained, with a prospect of the d"-
abilities complained of being removed, if such all
arrangement could be made as would be at once
i
satisfactory to the Catholics and the Protestants,
consistent with the public secatily. He wislw'
the Noble Lord to consider the ditliculti s which 31.
tended the question. These, it had been their 01'5-
fortune, and that of the Catholics, had never het'll
fairly stated to the House. Nothing could be (1)01'3'
likely to be productive of evil, nothing more fatal
the interests of the country, nothing more lii,elyttr.
disqualify us-from carrying. on the strw4,l6..
in which we were engaged, and nothing more like'
ly to run down the Parliament of thigkrici in the
timation of that irnpoitaut feature of the strength
the country—the Catholic population.—Noihinv
could be more injurious to the cause in every re-
sped than the indefinite manner in which the sub*
jeCi was brought before Parliament year after ye?,,e
Gentlemen who were friendly to the Cat.ll°.'d
Emancipation ought to fathom the difficulties
which the subject was immersed, in order to flat
certain what might be overcome (and by
memo), and what were insuperable. Let ti
1
who brought it forward look ht the questioh, "to
endeavour to so ip it of some of thtoe, for as ye
had never been pot at issu:-. in that House hrte
manner cfeciltah:e to themselves or
others. He nictit to throw no ciNresreettul rert`-e,
tion on Cot. CattioJcs, but their warmth had soll'ed
times Rarcohted their understanding to be cam;
away by filch- passions ; but after all had been
of the necessity of conceding what they reciuti
lest ultimately it should be forced from them. 6-e,
forbid that he should enh.rtain an idea that lir'ce
ever have recourse to any measure to 1616.40
Parliament to attend to them, other than 111;.,
which they could legally and constitutionally elt-vi,
cise ; or that he should enterian an idea, that-14'4
ever severe their disappointment, they would /16‘.0
bow to its decision. He had no inFidious pull";
io noticing the difficulties which he thought orP",d.
ed themselves to the wishes of the Catholics, `'tit
he thought the Hon. Gentleman who had th'`,):l4
out a hint, that in the CO,JTSCOf the Session he
bring the q.!estiou more before the 11°.
wc'tld not think It woong that the attention of
[Luse shomd he called to the difficulties afro' 'ld.
it, in order that it 'night . en how tat theYC°
he got over. He sooold pc,f.aps best ableti;e
make his sentiments d, by referring w
several classes of opinions whit h he believed (c),,,,0,1

which watt hut mall, consisted of those who urged
hqestien as ilueetion of right, and nut of ex-
. P'''lit'ecy, or of regulation, and consequently con-
tended that Parliament lied only to do its duty; and
rem..ve the disabilities complained ot. The second
class, of which he as one, were disposed to admit
the expediency of removing the disabilities, but at
the same time coupling the grant with such guards
for the public security es it might be pr.:chcable to
fs'llti• The third clan consisted of those who had
never yet heard a plat-proposed, which they thought
etrorded sufficient security from danger, it the Ca-
tholic Claims were? coueeded, and whose own minds
Bi3gested no plan from which they could hope to
to_„htai:n
that secefty. These were, theiefore, de-
Crmtriecl to retest the grant; but he had never yet
things that might possibly occur in the progress
. human eveette, were resolved at all times to op-
pose the
Prayer of the Catholics. Those of the
r;l:Tait Class,' who considered this as a question of
c' It' Were the persons who now pressed forward
,n go into a Commit tee on the subject. It was un-
fortunate fur the juiciest of the cause, that those
Who thus contended the relief called for was only
that
to which the C holies had a right, had
raver
been prevailed upon to bring that question
°an issue. It was unfortunate thin they had
an:d3t done so, because of late the Catholics had con-
, ered it in this point of view themselves, and in
Lic°nsequence turned their b icks on every thing like
that might be proposed. With this feel-
mgb they had refused to concede !hat which they had
Leeell willing to give before. They considered it to
theirright ; that it had been too long withheld from
17rn, and that at all tines, and under any circum-
-I,hinces, they were entitled to have what they claimed.
thisere were however so few in the class who were of
is,oPinion, that could the question be brought to an
• tuplc'e it would be productive of considerab;e advan-
se The Patholics would findthe number of their
~lrPortQrs on 1 his ground ,o insignificant, they would
lait; content to give up all hope of getting the diiabi-
co*escomplained of removed, and endeavour to re-
Iv "elle themselves to their present situation, or they
se°111(1 be teady to iistn with a favourable ear to such
-I,Viatious as it might be thought necessary to propose.
care! econd class contended, that on a difficult and
c Phcated matter, it would be improper to go into a
u'"
11“nittee in the hope of finding out sonic measure
[ +night meet the case before them, which no
iv'dual was ready to propose in his place. He,
goor•C'tie. would ne‘er, on such a suSjea, consent to
w ilnlto such a Committee. No person, he thought,
.° looked into, the merits of the case, could say
th.e'e was ai present any thine to be discovered in
mind (God forbid toot lie should say
,t,:ling existed there) to lead them to hope that they
I._"°old agree to any plan of regulation. The Noble
7141 here Adverted to the couuua et: the Hon. Gent.
v‘Wo had frequently brought the subjeca before the
°v °llse (Mr. Grattan), of whom he spoke in terms of
jn'e highest admiration. That Hoa. Gentleman,
vnugh he.had not thought it necessary to eAlet the
:63 in the first place a sine qua nod, had been of
Pinion that much good was not to be expeaed tram
oranting their prayer, unless some means w cie taken
tilguard against its being taken advantage of by the
ethl3. He understood him to have felt himself au
h:r,'sed to slate to the Catholic Body, that without
v'ving some arrangement to that etfeel in view, it
as hopeless to see-k
redress from Parliament. He
iiv
Ished to know of that Hon. Gentleman. if he bad
allY thing of that nature to propose which he had
44Y reason to believe the Catholic body woeld accede
°' If there were a difficulty in time of attending
1
the prayer, he thought it was highly improper
1 biii:g it forward, merely to throw on Par-
2ament the odium of opposing the expectations of
the Catholics, when the circumstances of the times,
lather than any indisposition on their part, precluded
he possibility of granting what was required. He
ad heard that the C•ib,,lics could make tio arrange-
Lii,eullt of that sort, witch he considered necessary,
~.."4.'ut the consent of the Pope. They thought it
h very wicked att in theta to exercise
themselves weat ti ev considered as his authority,
N'bile he a as-tit eleivity, and his orders while in
captivity they felt thenee Ives bound not to obey.—
"del' e cireolusianta (g.viog them credit for
the`) lively feeling ot attachment e. owed towards him
now they considered as toe head of their church)
"le did not see how they would at all be enabled to
pt over that whi.:h toe Hun. Gentleman himself
4(1 admitted to be a preliminary obstacle. He telt
;
to be necessary that the Catholic Church- should
be separated not wily from the patron.:ge of the See
of Ituine, but he wts. ed to see it united with the
r,-,tate, which was not deemed itieonsisient with its
knew
by the Catholics of other countries. He
"tt‘v of nothing that could be urged against this,
'llloh was not an argument against relieving them
from the disabilities of which they complained. It
ad been said, that without the coocession required,
Was competent for Parliament to legislate, and
t2tiditionally relieve the Catholics from their
Z isabiliqes, ing it for them to take advan-
Zge of the measure or not, as they might think pro-
L'l% He was not preparce to say, that the Church
wotild not be safe, it the House were of opinion it
would be right to place ii Ott such a settlement, hut
e thought he must be a bold Statesman who would
t?l'`TOseyocb a measure, without obtaining a preli
concession, and without well knowing the
ot the Cat,olic laity and ecclesiastics. It a
on the plan proposed were brought in, the laity
would not be benefited by it, as they could not en-
Joy the political principles it allowed them (not con-
ceding their claims to the full extent required), till
1"e Eeelestasucal Body came into the a'rongement,
• sad thus the law would remain a t:ead letter on the
statute-book. The nresent time he thought was Wit
Well chosen to bring, the subjea forw-td. This
Was by no means the auspicious mome,,t for egitat-
ing•the question, as the Catholic mind was but pre-
pared to submit to the nee, ssaty regulation, auu the
Protestants net conciliated by the late transactions, to
`concede what he Catholics Oe.matided. At a f,nrner
Period he had thought the obstacles to granting the
Catholic claims ineeperable. This was his opinion
when he retired from office in 1801, aid it was
funded, nen only on the public: feeliag, but oo the-
'scrupleis felt in another high quarter. These scru-
,ples grew out of a feeling not to be conceded to
the advice of any N.linster, and had the subject
been pressed on the Crown, the effect of such a
proceedibg would only nave been to force the Sove-
;1„ reign to give that negative which the Constitution
taables re_ . •

sirable to avoid calling forth, Be himself had never
thought the Coronation Oath mode particularly
against the claims of the Catholics. He knew.of
nothing in it that to him appeared to forbid legislaa
nun on that subject; but it was evidently impos-
sible for the King to consent to grant what the Ca-
thohcs required, if he thought it might endanger
the Constitution. On that occasion, he (Loyd Cas-
tlereagh) had only acted up to what he co ivied to
be his duty, and he could see nothing, inokhe pre-
sent state of things, to lead him to think with ar,
Hon. Gentleman opposite, that those difficulties
were set at rest for ever. Of the Catholic meetings
last suTumer, he wished to speak in the mildest
terms. He thought them entitled to be treated with
great rberality, as those who were in . the habit of
attending popular meeting,, knew that a colour was
often given them by particular speeches, which was
not deserved by the proceedings altogether. If, how-
ever, the Convention Ad was not meant to put
down such meetings as that to which it bad been
applied, what was the Ad for ? If such a convention
was not illegal, how could they bring a man to trial
for belonging to any other ? After all that had been
said by the Hun. Gentleman, what he had advanced
only came to this, that if a doubt on the subjed
could be rationally entertained, that doubt ought
to be removed by Parliament. He thought no
doubt could exist on the subjed ; but the Hon.
Gentleman had thrown out doubts on the subjed
of the convidion which. bad taken place. Did
he mean to soy that the Irish Government should
or could be carried on with such a Convention
sitting in its neighbourhood ? If this were permitted,
the Presbyterians and Threshers, or any other
class, however dangerous, might call their conven-
tions and hold their sittings, as it had been proposed.
Had the Irish Parliament still been in existence, be
had no doubt but it would have known its duty, and
put down such a body. The law, he stated to have
been first framed to meet that spirit of overwhelming
faction which had been imported from France to
Ireland. He did not believe that the Catholics had
any evil intention in meeting, any traitorous design
of bringing about a revolution ; and as little did he
believe that the meeting was called from a sober con-
vidion that it was necessary for the purpose of peti-
tioning ; but if the Government had so tar bended its
neck as to permit the Convention to sit, the Catho-
lics were probably of opinion that it would give an
authority to their diauni, and a weight to their re-
presentations, which otherwise they might not pos. •
sess. If the Catholics were brought to felled,
they would find it was their interest that such
Conventions should not be permitted to assemble.
The occurrences to which be bad alluded were un-
fortunate for the Catholics. They could not alter
his general opieions on the subject, bee, they made
him particularly averse to any change being made at
the present moment. He thought it very ill judged
ie them to oppose themselves to the Courts of
law. He co feel, and he was sure the House
must fee., how painful was the task imposed upon
the Attorney General of Ireland, in being obliged
to prosecute Lord Fingal, a Nohleman whose exem-
plary conduct in the worst of times had proved
his loyalty and attachment to the Government.—
If ultimately a triumph should be gained over the
law, he contended it would still be to the disad-
vantage ot the Catholics. Adverting to their coin-
plaint ot the right of petitioning, he ehataeter.eed
it as the most lame charge he ever remembered to
have seen brought before Parliament. The whole
of the Duke of Richmond's administration had baen
marked, nut merely by forbearance, but by be-
nevolence. The whole of the proceedings of the
Catholics in the late transactions he thought illegal,
and hoped they would now shut the Cenvention-
book for ever, and return to the good old sound
Constitutional practice of petitioning Parliament in
their several, Counties, &c. and then their Petitions
would have- more weight than if framed as it had
been intended to frame ti em in a Convention.
Never was there an assembly better disposed fairly
to consider the claims of the Catholics, than the
British Parliament. With respect to the propriety
ot granting them at all, he thought there might
be less danger than was apprehended.—The con-
cessions made, the real accession of Catholic power
would not be vet)! great. Catholic influence found
its way into that Heuse now. It had done so
from the period ot tle ITeion, to the present time;
-and he could not but consider it as an unnatural ope-
ration, for Catholic t .fluence to come thus through
Protestant hands. The Catholic disabilities remov-
ed, he thought the C mstitution too strong to be
much affeaed by the change, amid gave it as his opi-
nion that it would soon find its level. The whole
pressed down together would enable Government
to repress the errors of each party with e stronger
band, to check the prejudices of each, arid hold the
scales of justice poised more equally and more ad-
vantageously for both.

Mr: WHITIII3.BAD thought the Nnble .Lord had
contributed his full proportion to this most "
discussion." He expressed his decided de-
termination, as it had always been, to vote for a,
Committee. So far from concurring with the pro-
position, that the claims of the Catholics would be
injured by discussion, he conceived that discussion
would rescue them from that slavery to which they
were condemned, and bring them into light and life.
—lt was to repeated discussion alone they were in-.
debted for those remaining privileges which they
now possessed. The Noble Lord had stated a va-
riety of difficulties and dangers attending the discus-
sion, but it was his duty when he held office to have
overcome those indispensable obje6tions, and to have
secured the balance of security equally between
the Catholic and Protestant church. He had Tint
only araigned the purity of his Hon. Friend's (Lord
Morpeth) intentions, but he had also extended that
arraignment to his Right Hou. Friends Mr. Grattan.
And Mr. Fox, for what he was pleased to term "the
indefinite state" in which they had brought the goes-
lion turward. it belonged, therefore, to that Noble
Lord, to have taken, when in wince, the question
out of that detinit'e state. What was the condo:A of
the Noble Lord ? Why, with respect to the veto,
he stated that he had mood-between the Crown and
the Catholics. In professing, therefore, to become
i. the .champion of the Cat holies, he shrank from his
allegiance and duty to the Crown, in advising his
Majesty not to apply tie Veto to aa Aet passed.—
What was the candtid of Mr. Pitt in that respea ?
Why he retired from office, because he CJiali not
carry into effeet the pledge which he had given to
the Catholics, because the King in person objetied
rn. _ e _ -Kt L 1 T nniAittlilrff

, did not therefore stand between the Crown and the
people. With respea. to the Union, it was true,
there was no pledge given, but there was an under-
standing that the claims would not only be statedi
but urged, and to this understanding Mr. Pitt and
the other Government Officers, with Lord Can-
wallis, were parties. Did the Noble Lord think he
-could have effe&ed the Union without that feeling
among the Catholics ? When, therefore, he com-
plained of the want of a:specific plan in the proposi-
tions of the advocates for the Catholics, it was his,
(Lord C.'s) duty to have named one; but it was
now too late for the Noble Lord to tell the House
there were sach insuperable difficulties, that the
demands could not be complied with. The Ca-
tholics had not the means of arranging these matters,
for their meetings were deemed by one verdict of a
jury illegal, though another jury had pronounced
them legal. The Hon. Gentleman complained that
the Secretary of State for the Home Department had
not given such attention to the state of Ireland, with
respect to the issuing of the Proclamation, as was
consistent with the duty he owed the Empire; but
he supposed he was too much occupied with the
care of the county, and the nightly watch. He then
adverted to the arguments of the Right Honourable
and Learned Civilian, on the previous night, who
seemed to entertain a wish that, for the security of
the State, and to oaequilize Ireland, the whole of
the penal code was re-eneaed. Even the N.-Jole Lord
disclaimed such an idea ; he only meant te shut the
door against indefinite discussions; but every person
who had spoken on that side of the House had
agreed, that though the present was not the proper
time for granting the concessions, yet that time
must arrive. He then noticed the example which
was held out in the instance of Gen. Cole's re-
ceiving the thanks of the House, for his gallant
conduct at Albuera ; to the Catholics, in our army
and navy, as exhilirating in the highest degree, and
as a stimulus -to exertions. But what hopes could
the parents of children destined for these professions
entertain, when their brave and gallant children,
fighting the battles of their country, and expeaing,
as they deserved, the highest rank, were denied by
this insuperable bar ; for they could not hold a
higher rank than that of Lieutenant-Colonel, and
therefore could not receive the thanks of the repre-
sentatives of a free people. Under such circum-
stances, was-it strange that people should feel some. t
degree of exasperation, that because they were Ca- +
tholics, they were stigmatized ? Would they not, in-
stead of entering into the . service of their country,
seek for employments abroad ? It had been so—the
names of Lacey, of Sheldon, and of O'Farrell, were
in the recolle6tion of the House; the battles of Blen-
heim, of Malplaquet, and of Fonienoy, were in-
stances of the truth of these observations. Would
it not be as prudent to brigade them in the British
service, as to brigade them against their country ?
He might apply the quota ion of the Honourable
Gentleman (Mr. C.' Adams to the brilliant display
of the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr, Canning)
cloquentice sapientice satis !—His speech
was not convincing, for it did not convince the
Right Hon Gentleman himself; and though he •
took his full flight, and, his plumage was most bril-
liant, when he endeavoured to convince every body
of the necessity of voting for the proposition of his
Noble Frend, he could not obtain his own Tire
public mind, notwithstanding all that the Right
Henousehle Gevelemate had said, would: not be tran-
quilized until the concessions were ewe. much
had been said about meanacing attitudes; history
had furnished pools of the folly of waiting for these
attitudes. Queen Elizabeth knew .s hat was neces-
sary for the security of the State with respe& to eie
concessions she made to the Low Countries. Did
not. the Government of a later dice talk of attitudes
with resin& to America, arid would not yield 3 But
when America was in a menacing attitude, they
were compelled to yield, and now, instead of having
to contend with rehels, as they were styled, this
country had to combat with an independent people.
The Honourable Gentleman recommended strongly
the necessity of concessions, and instanced the hap-
py state of the Swiss Cantons worshipping as they
did for 290 years in the same Church, though pro-
fessing different religionS, and that happy state
might have continued but for the cursed interrup-
tion of the French. He also instanced the conduct
of Henry IV. of France, with respell to the Edid
of Nantz, and the concessions made to the Hugo-
riots, in opposition to the advice of his Protestant
Minister, Sully. He then commented on the con-
dud of the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland, with
respell to the issuing of the Proclamation, and the
details of the proceedings as stated by the Right
Hon. Secretary. He contended, that the Catholics
could not be represented in a mass, but only by de-
legation, on account of the vast numbers of that
body (the Catholics). The Convention AOl, in his
opinion, had been strained. He noticed the receps
Lion which the Delegates from Ireland met with in
1793, from Mr. Secretary Dundas, who, at their re-
quest, introduced them to tire King, who received
them graciously, and told them that he would re-
commend to his Parliament to grant the conceseons
which they demanded. Delegates had been con-
stantly received from English bodies. The Right
Honourable Jiecreiary had charged his Hon. Friends
with what they had not uttered, while riding in his
post chaise, and reading the debates in the news-
paper, 'he takes for granted as true, all that The
Morning. Post ci.ose to put in their mouths, and
then attack them for it. He had no leer for the
Established Church from the concessions being
granted ; if it did fall, it must -be by indolence and
want of foresight. The Hon. Gentleman concluded
a very long speech, by recommending the adoption
I of tire motion.

Lord CASTLEREAGH, in explanation, made a few
observations, denying that he had osed the word
"disclosed," as applied.. by the Hon. Gnatleman.

Mr. CANNING disc;airried the • version of every
part of .hi..speech to which the Hon. Gentleman
had referred.

Mr. Secretary RYDER considered that it would
have amounted to a criminal violation of the tru3t
repoSect in the, Government, if they had neglected
to take measures for preventing the meetings, and
to enforce the provisions of the Convention Act.--
Tt►e Right Hon. Secretary then recapitulated the
statement made by the Eight Hon. G::ntle►nan
(Mr. Pole), with respe&•t to the measures pursued
on that occasion. D►d the Honourable Gentleman
mean to contend that Government were to have
waited until the object of the meetings was corn
- the sta

nlete before they decided on nutting

OltC

force ? The •construction which had been put on
the Ait was the legal 011 r. The eh-4ms of the
Catholics were not recognized by the cowl ry at
large—there was a general and prevalent disp sition
against them, which lad been Increased in comee
quence of their late proceedings, and be was not pre- ',II;
pared to admit that mischief would not arse froth
these treqnent discussions.

The A.TTCONEINGENERAL vindicated, itt much
length, the cbodott of the Law Officers and the
Judges of the. Irish Bench in giving the opinion
which they had delivered —• hat the meeting of the
Catholic Delegates was a viol Lion of the Convention
Ad. The Honourable and Learned Genth-mdn en-
teredinto an able exposition of that Al, and proved,
that whatever might have been the intention of the
Catholics in forming those assenitlies, wt.ether sim-
ply and sincerely for the purpose of petitiining, or
for the ILL therance of soLte other purposes, those
assemblies (the Attorney-General said), constituted
as they were, llad rightly been considered infractions
of the law. M 0..?) also had been said in disappro-
bation of the warrant issued by the Lord Cite- Jus-
tice of Ireland, ati.i o! !!.c..: charge delivered by_that
respeaahle Judge to he Jury.—Sir V. Gibbs here

read several passages from that charge, ;o shew that
there I.=,:ts nothing in it hostile to the general cha-
taaler ;nd rilietttions of the Catholic body. and that
thereft•te the censure cast upon it was entirely desti-
tute of tnundation. But why canvass, much 1.251

censure, the Judges in that House ? 'Chose Judges
had a,led upon a sworn responsibility. Ilat House
Was not the proper and competent ttilyinal below
which to arraign their opinions and decisions; and
if, in these opinions and decisions,, there was any
thing reprehensible, there was another and a
mote proper place where their conduct might be
ctitnpetently investigated, and their decisions rec-
tified, if they should appear to have
.been erro-
neous.

Mr. PONSONEY animadverted with much severity
on the speeches of IVIr. W. Pole, Mr. Canning, and
Lord Castlereagh. Mr. Pole seemed to forget,
throughout the whole of his speech, that the real
question before the Howie was the perilous situation
of Ireland ; and seemed only to suppose, like the
Parish Clerk in Pope, that the sole busine,s to be
attended to was the vindication of his own conduit,
and the assertion of his own dignity. The Right
,Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Canning) had argued
one way, and voted the other. He contended, that
in consequence of the motion, of which an Honourh.

able Friend of his (Mr. Hutchinson) hdd given no-
tice, for the Repeal of the Union, it was impossible
now to entertain the Petition of the Irish Catholics;

so that, it the motion for the Repeal of the Uniorl-
were deferred from day to day, and not brought for-
ward at any period of the Session; neither could the
Catholic Petition be discussed, nor any attention
paid to the claims of that highly respedable body.—
There were, it was true, those who would grant no
concessixt at all, beciuse the granting any must en-
danger the c3tablishments in Church and State. In
what quarter did those d.,ngers exist ) By what
means was the Protestant Church to be subverted ?
Was it the Catholics who were to olerthrow it and
if so, by what meant were they to accomplish that
overthrow ? Was it by force ? If so, had they
not as much force now to compass that design a.
they ever had, or were likely to have ? And if it
%VC not by lo:ce they were to subvert it, by what
other means ? Wes it by associating__ in their plan
the Irish Protestants If so. are those Gentle-
preparerf to say that the Irish Protestants
would lend,their aid in des; t oying t heir owoCuurch
Surely this would be bordering very cl .se on Absur-
dity. Bat it would only oe of a rem with most of
the arguments that had been used against the mo-
tion of his Noble Friend. For several ye try back it
had also been objected to the Catholic Petition that
their Nobilny were adverse to it. At another time

it was said that the Catho!ic Clergy were against it,
and that it had not been signed by any of their
Priests, or even one of their Prela.es. Nor was that
all ; on other occasions, and by other Gen lemett, it
was objected, that though the Irish Nobility, Cleagy,
and Gentry, might be in favour of the petition, yet
the great mass of the lower orders of that pursuasioti
were wholly indifferent about its success. The Ca-
tholics observed and felt all these objeaions, and
were anxious to remove them, as they have on -all
occasions invariably been to remove every cause of
complaint and dissatisfaction at their conduct. How
could they most effectually obtain their end ?—Why
by endeavouring so to coiled the universal opinion
of their boJy. as to obviate all objections. They
accordingly set.tck work, in order to collect the opi-
nions and wishes of all the classes of their body.—
They chose from among Their Nubility, their Pre-
lacy, and their Gentry, those in whom they most
trusted, to meet and manifest the general wishes
and opinion. But no sooner did they make this at
tempt, which they fondly conceived must silence
r:very objection, when a new cry is raised apinsc
them, that such meeting of their Nobility, Prelacy,
and Gentry, could only have for its object to coa,ti-.
tote an assembly of the three Estates, which would
beard Patliatuent, and nose the very Goven,
MCI] meetings whion were itumecii.tely :de-
clared to be illegal, and as sccli put down.—
Ile did nct exp.:a that much weight shocld
be attached ro his opinion, but he would ho-
nestly declare that opinion, and assert, that in
his concepion of the matter, there was nothing
illegal in these tneetHip-s, They were no vlo-
lalion of the Convention Ad. The Catholics who
so assembled, asstfm'aled for no other puipose in the
world than that of petitioning, and petitioning in
such a manner as to obviate every objection that
' Vha:l hitherto been started against the nature of. their
petition. In his mind, therefore, they had not
offended against the Contention Ad, or vio!ated any
law, and yet they have been. treated as if thy were
guilty of the most flagrant offences. How, then,
could it be expected that their conduct would be-
speak the feelings of satit,faCtion, acquiescence, and
suarnission i Was it more than natural, that, fail-
ing in their attempts to please, they should feel di.-
appoi_utrnent, and utter the language, and assume
the mien which indicated such feelings land such a
state of mind ? Their feelings of disappointment
are then cunstraed into a manifestalion of menace,
their attitude into that of defiance ; and these a2,a n
ate immediately made the ground for refusing to
concede' any of their claims. This was an unwise:
cooduCt ;, the experience of all history, patOen 131-1 V
our own history, demonstrated that inanruclz.nce.--
Such was the conduct we tad pursued toword,
America. Her people WPrP r-