The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-13 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, FRB. 11.
DRAINAGE OF BUILDINGS BILL.
Lord NORINIANBY in moving the second rem ling
of the Drainage Building Bill, said that the importance
of the subject could not easily he exaggerated. The
Noble Baron opposite (Lord Ellenborough), who had
already alluded to the quesiion, had stated in the course
of his observations that he did not conceive that the
powers given by the Bill were sufficiently large. But
his first object would be to allude to the state of things
which had produced those evils to which he was now
about to apply a remedy. If thirty years ago such a
Bill as that had been passed by their Lordships, many
of those evils would not have attained their present ex-
tent, or would probably never have existed. As to the
Bill itself, he intended to consider it as but one step in
the right direction, and he promised the Noble Lord
that he would endeavour to induce their Lordships to
continue in the course on which they were then about to
enter. The Bill had been proposed to their Lordships
with a view to direct the attention of the Legislature to
what was admitted to be a serious evil. In introducing
the measure, it had been his endeavour to have as little
recourse as possible to any new machinery. Perhaps it
might be found imperfect in its operation, but his first ob-
ject Wes to apply the machinery already in existence, and
not to establish a new body for the purpose of carrying
out the measure. Ile was aware of the disadvantage under
which he laboured in dealing with the medical part of the
subject, but he would endeavour to allude, in as few words
as possible, to that part of the question. It wes now a
universally established fact, that very many of the diseases
to which human nature was subject, arose from malaria
proceeding from a disorganisation of animal and vegetable
matter. That was a poison which affected the constitu-
' tion as surely, though not as speedily, as any other. It
had been proved that that poison had a substantive exist-
ence; and a certain portion cf air saturated with that ma-
laria, and introduced into the reins of animals, had
been shown to be fatal. It had also been proved,
that disease bad been removed by the changes
which put an end to that malaria. There was
a Report of a Committee of the House of Commons,
from which he would quote a few instances, by way of
illustrating that assertion. In Euston-square, at the ter-
minus of the Birmingham Railway, there was an open
ditch, in which the drains of the neighbourhood discharged
themselves; and the consequence was, that typhus or some
other description of fever usually prevailed in that dis-
trict. The ditch, however, was covered in, and fever had
never since been known to prevail in the neighbuurhocd.
A similar case occurred in High-street, Holborn, where
fever prevailed for want of a sewer adjoining a slaughter-
house. The sewer was made, and the malsdv bad disap.
peered. If there should he a Central Board of Inquiry
appointed, he was satisfied, whatever Board might be,
that it ought to he distinct from the Poor-law Commis.
sioners. The Noble Lord, after mentioning several dis-
tressing cases of misery and poverty that had been re.
ported to him, drew the attention of their Lordships to
a calculation which had been furnished by Dr. S. Smith.
We understood the Noble Lord to say that it appeared,
from those returns, that fever was co-extensive with pau-
perism, and in one parish, that cf St. George the
Martyr, fully six-sevenths of the paupers were attacked
with fever. But in that estimate a large portion of the
labouring population was not included, and therefore it
fell far short of the whole amount of disease. That the
want of sewerage was a principal cause of fever appeared
from two maps which accompanied the Report. One
of these was a map of the sewers, arid the other of the
course of the fever, which were exactly the inverse of
each other—the fever having travelled in the opposite
direction to the sewers.—( Hear, hear.) The deficient
drainage, however, was not the only cause. The crowded
and badly ventilated state of the habitations in the parer
neighbourhoods tended greatly to propagate the disease.
Dr. Smith and Mr. Pennythorne stated instances of three
and four families living in one room, and Gine instance of se-
venteen persons living in the same room by dar, and sleeping
in it by night. Toe mass of misery thus laid bare did not,
such was the colossal state of the society in which we
lived, make any visible impression on the statistical re-
turrs of the empire, but he was sure the evils that were
found to exist in many portions of it only required to be
known to secure the assistance of those who were ever ready
to stretch forth the hand of charity to those who needed its
assistance. And when he remembered how much to the
credit of the benevolent in our community was raised front
public ss mpathy, to ameliorate the condition of the dis-
tant negro, he felt qiiite certain they could not be indifs
ferent to such a state of things as this as ithin the very bills
of mortality, in which their own fate was recorded, when,
at slight cost and little trouble, they would be able to
avert so much disease and death from so large a portion of
their fellow-countrymen and fellow Christians. He had
hitherto confined his attention to the metropolis, and had
stated that, great as these evils there were, they made no
visible impression on our statistical returns, but if they
turned to the great manufacturing districts he was afraid
they would there find a different state of things. The
Noble Baron (Lord Ellenborough) bad alluded to a fac.
their Lordships should never lose sight of—that within the
last 50 years the proportion between the agricultural and
manufacturing population had entirely changed. Bet at
the same time there had been an immense increase of
population, and they must find some consolation in the
immense increase in the amount of produce. lie had not
yet received the report from Manchester, end was unable
to trace back the mortality during the latter part of the
last century, but from another record he found Sir Gilbert
Blaine stated the mortality fur the following years was as
follows :—ln 1757, one in twenty- fire. In 1770, one in
twenty-eight. In 1779, one in fifty-eight, and, in 1811,
one in seventy-four. Inquiries on this subject had lately
been instituted in the city of Calcutta, and a Committee
appointed or, the subject, who, much to their credit, re-
commended that any sacrifices that were necessary should
be made to remedy the evils arising from want of drainnge.
In this Report mention was made of the efforts in this
cause of the Marquis 'of Wellesley, the greatest statesman
India ever saw ; and, as nothing was too great for his con-
ception, so nothing scented too small to escape his atten-
tion. The Committee recommended carrying into ef-
fect his Lordship's propositions. This Committee expressed
the greatest admiration at what was doing in England,
even in the manufacturing towns. At the present mo-
ment their exact state could not be ascertained, as the census
was not completed ; but if they took the population which
in 1831 was 236,000, to be nose in round numbers 280,000,
the deaths last year being 9,270, it would be found the
number of deaths in 1841, exactly thirty years after the
last date in Si: Gilb.,q3, Blaine's Report, hal exactly
doubled. If they turned to Glasgow, they would find Mr.
Symonds, a great authority, said, " I have seen human
degradation in some of its worst phases, both in England
and abroad, but I can Advisedly say, until I visited the
wynds of Glasgow I never saw so large an amount of filth,
misery, and degradation, exiting in any one spot in a civi-
lized country."
In 1821 the deaths were 1 in 39
1831
1833 1 in 29
1839 1 in 26
1840 1 in 25
Then, as to Liverpool, the calculation made by Dr. Bow-
ring was, that there were good cellars, and that 35,000 of
the working population of Liverpool lived in these good
cellars. Tare mortality in the cellars was thirty-five per
cent. more than it ought to be with reference to the
rest of the population ; about 86,400 lived in close courts,
in which there was no under drainage whatever. It was
unnecessary to enter into a detail of what must be the
consequence of such a state of things, but Dr. Bewrilig
had stated in his report, the stench was so horrible
that it could not be endured. The condition of the
people of Hull wise better than the condition of the p,,pn-
lation of some other large towns ;
but Hull wasruing,
into great importance as a sea-port town, and many of that
ruing
new buildings were liable to every posiible objection, and
unnecessary to go through the other large towns, but be
which it was the intention of his Bill to thwart. It was
would just mention a fact which showed how milica!thy
to which he halt partial-
-1,11,7; alluded, must aursitdblea—rgethri7l' Manchester the deaths of
Children under three years of age, in 1839, wore 498 in
1,000 ; in London, 398 in 1,000; in the agricultural parts
of Yorkshire 282; and in Northumberland 253. Tile
deaths in Manchester above 70, in 1839, were only 53 in
1,000 ; in the metropolis 9f.) in 1,000; in the agricultural
districts of Yorkshire 202 in 1.000 ; in Northumberland
211) in 1,000. It was not his intention to extend the pro-
visions attic Bill to Scotland unless lie could adapt theta
the machinery at present in use in that country. He
had no objection to the. Bill being extended to Ireland.—
on the face of
r
(Hear, bear ) Indeed lie could safely say, from his know -
f lie
a opportunity of s public walks, and of
ledge of Ireland, that there was no country
the globe that stood more in need of such
a mea
or
classes taneee of n
la terding to
fet
thel labouring
)
:
Public
asocia commenion
in free air. That, as well as
, grounds, were subjects well worthy of s.ns and burying
ea. Lordships' at-
tention. The Noble Lord, in co
lic uiiou,moved the se-
cond reading of the Bill, and trusted that their I rdshies
would not only pass it, but co
nntlnue to give the matter
their most serious attention
The M b Marquis of SALI-B( ear')
URI' not only concurred in

.EVENING;- ED 1 TION.

e absolute necessity of some such mei is ire as that which
• 1 e Noble Marquis had introduced, but agreed that it was
the duty of their Lordships to correct the evils, which were
of very great magnitude, it was intended to remedy. His
only objection to the Bill was that it did not go far enough.
He had, however, no intention of opposing the second
reading of the Bill, although it interfered with many exist-
inerights, and introduced many provisions which had not
Leen so carefully considered as they might have been, or
as a Committee of their Lordships' House would enable
them to be. He proposed, therefore, that the Bill should
be referred to a Select Committee up stairs, and in doing
so he considered be was not only furthering the laudable
object which the N,ble Marquis had in view, but that ;be
Bill would be rendered more perfect, and that a great deal
of time would be saved.

The Earig3f WICKLOW concurred in the objects of
the Bill : but he thought that it was imperfect in its de-
tails. lie regretted that it did not provide for the better
regulation of burial grounds, which, in his opinion, called
for the interference of the Legislaturo. lie should wish
the provisions of the measure were extended to lodging-
houses, in which parties often succeeded others who ha I
died of fever or same other malignant disease. He was
also sorry to find that Scotland was to be excluded from
the operation of the Bill ; as there was no part of the em-
pire more in want of such a measu e than that country.
It appeared that in Glasgow the manufacturing popula-
tion were not allowed to remove the dirt which had accu-
mulated in their neighbourhood, because the landlords
claimed it as their property ; and in Edinburgh public •
sewers were often turned into the adjoining meadows. for
the purpose of manuring them, to the great d•inger of the
health of the adjoining population. lie thought these
were evils which required the interference of the Legisla-
ture. The Noble Earl proceeded to object to the clause
requiring that no cellars should be occupied as dwelling_
houses. Such a provision could not be enforced in such
towns as Liverpool, where it had been proved that 40,000
inhabitants lived in cellars. He also wished that some
remuneration should he granted to surveyors.

The Marquis of WESTMINSTER here observed, that
those subjects should be best discussed before the Select
Committee, which, ha believed, it was the intention of the
Government to appoint.
The Marquis of NOR M ANB Y was willing to consent
that a Select Committee should be appointed ; and he
thought it would locz better to submit to that Committee all
objections of detail.
The Earl of WICKLOW observed that, be would in
that case reserve any further remark he might have to
make for the Select Committee.

The Marquis of WESTMEATII wished to know
whether all the provisions of the Bill were to extend to
Ireland.

The Marquis of NORMANDY said, that the provisions
of the Bill were to be extended to Ireland, although he
did not know whether it might be found advisable to em-
ploy the same machinery in that country as in England.
It was certainly his intention to ace a similar 1311 intro-
duced into Scotland, but he thought it would be better to
leave the framing of it to some of the law-uffizers of that
country, as the Bill might have particular interests to deal
with.

The Bill was then read n second time ; and ordered to
be reforred to a Select CAnmittee, which was appointed
for Friday ❑ext. _ _

Their Lordships then adjourned till Tuesdly.

ROUSE OF COSIMO_', S. E'ER; 11..
LORD KEANE.

(Continued from our Second Edition of last night.)
Mr. WILLIAMS begged to know whether it was in-
tended that the Governor of India. or Lord Keene should
institute proceedings 90inst the authors of the statement ?
Sir J. 1-10 BHOU SE said the Government li;u1 been
so shocked at the appearance of the ReplAt of the Military
• Commission, that they had thought it their duty to call
Upon the officers to explain how it had found its way to
the public. It answer to what his lion. Friend had said
relative to the conduct of the two squadrons of Bengal
Cavalry, Col. Denny, who commanded them, had stated
th,,t their conduct was so bad that they had been disbanded.
An Hot. MEMBER said, as one of the Director:, of the
East I idia Company, he felt it his duty to state that he.
believed there wail not a syllable of truth in the imputations
upon the character of Lord Keane.—( !fear, hear.) And
with regard to Msjor Clihborn's disaster, lie believed Lord
Keane had no more to do with it than any lion. Member
of that 11,,use.

Mr. HOGG said, when the Hon. Member for Kilkenny
had mentioned the rumour to him he (Mr. Hogg) had
expressed, his horror and disbelief of it, and he stated that
no such rumour had r. ached him. Next day he went to
the India House, and knowing that the news v.ould reach
the Chairman in the first instance, he had inquired of him,
and bad ascertained that no communication on the subject,
public or private, had reached him. Now would the !louse
believe that if there was the remotest foundation for it
no report would have been forwarded to the East India
Company or the Home Government ? lle believed the
watement to be utterly unfounded.
Mr. HUME wished to correct one statement of the
Hon. Member, because he had not introduced the state..
mint relative to the Military Commission. He would
ask the House whether, when individuals gave their names
to a newspaper, the paper would dare to pubfish their
statements if they were altogether devoid of truth ? lie
hoped the explanation of the Hon. Gentleman would prove
correct.

Sir JOHN C. HOBHOUSE begged to remind the
lion. Member that there was no name to the statement
in the newspapers. liad any name been ;Ixed to the
villalious charge, for he could' call it n,thing else, an op-
Fortunity would have been afforded of intiu,ring into the
truth of the mutter.

Mr. O'CONNELL said—Was not this quite manifest,
that if those persons were ready to give their names they
had the India House and the Board of Control to make
their complaints to? It was really too herd that the cha-
racter of a Gallant Officer should be assailed in that way.
—( Hear, hear. )
Lord HO \VICE said the explanation of the Right
Hon. Baronet wait as satisfactory as possible ; and ho
would be glad to hear the [lon. Member for ktikenny say
that, the explanation was satisfactory.
Sir HCSSEV VI VIA N understood that Lord Keane
bad never heard of the man's death until he saw it in the
Agra Ucithbar.
The House then went into a C. mmittce of the whole
House, to consider her MAjcsty's gracious message relative
to Lord Keane, Mr. BERNAL in the chair.

Loaf JOHN RUSSELL said it was unnecessary for
him to mr.he any statement relative to the merits of Lord
Keane, or the conduct of the expedition under his com-
mand. These points had been sufficiently dwelt upon
when the vote of thanks was passed. His Right
lion. Friend the Pruident of the Board cf Control had
then made a statement which would enable the House to
judge of the gallantry and good conduct of the expedition
by which the integrity and strength of the Indian Empire
had been maintained. Under these circumstances it was
quite impossible to imagine upon what grounds opposition
could be raised. The proposal he had to make now was
somewhat similar to the case of Viscount Lake in the year
1808 ; and with regard to the character of the services so
to be rewarded the House had already pronounced its
opinion. He therefore with great confidence proposed the
resolution, reserving to him,elf the right to reply to any
oljecions which might be raised by the lion. Member for
Kilkenny. The Noble Lord then moved that a sum of
9 0001. per nnnam be granted out of the consolidated fund
Pi a reward for the distinguished services of Lord Keane,
and to be continued to his two next surviving heirs.
Sir R. PEEL would not wait to hear the objectionr, of
the lion, Gentleman, so perfectly satisfied was he of the
justice and sound policy of the grant, and he
.could not
anticipate that any objections of the Hon. Gentlemau
e position in which he
theuilids
stood,ll ak ehehisfelotppinroiou'd's.of ilia (tiii;poritviity of seconding
the resolution, although, technically spenknig, it did not
require a seconder. He would not be dissuaded from that
course by the opposition that had been threatened, nor the
prcliminatti di,cussion that had taken place with respect to
the merits of Lord Keane. He carted not whether Lord
Keane prosecuted the paper or not, and he should be sorry
to impose upon the Noble Lord the neceisity of prose-
cutin“." the scandalous attacks upon his Lair farm., as the
test cf his honour and his inriocence.—( hear, hear.) He
thought every lion. Member's feelings would supply art
answer to the charge. The party, when he signed the
communication as " Injo!ed Innocence," should have made
it " Detected Cowardice."—( Cheers.) He would noc
disturb the unanimity that appeared to prevail in the House
by a reference to any political questions. He thought
that it was a general rule, that when the C.own conferred
honours of that kind, it was necessary to support those
honours by pecuniary grants. It was, he thought,
general rule, that the distinctions conferred should be
.fo
proposal for a pecuniary
lowed as soon as possible by a
grant. He belrved it necessary to ucticie thew matter:.,
delays on yr iateve.r gr ),
in order to protest against any also
la
l' r nwrits of Lord
being ertablished as a principle
By whatever test he tried. the Turie.,,,,,
'was bound to say
Keane and his army. he (S:rhßi;my
deserving of the vot..
ill. cases of this natorc.
that that general ellieeid•
under his commend, that
those merits by the privations and
nsuo;prirnogpoeslrlefdhe tried
t., itZeti greatest
by
yst privations, and overcome
their obedience to command
isciyoline which distinguished' the
uygsrcuabtmoittteddinicu
__by that example of r
the
than gallantry they ever
British troops even more_
, If he tried those merits by the brilliancy of
exhibitecn
their-exploits, be could refer to the capture of the fort of
if he tried them by the general sucerss e' the cx.
lti
des
that test also, the general results of the ;tam-
-1G: :
judt
:zi
ntrl,°enwe:cre in favour of Lord Keane and his army. liss
(Sir R. Ieel) found that general usage attached pecta-
in,
e i arwyopuri rcivbise exceedingly
totlsto rewards adjudged
Sadijnudel
degic:d to
tom thesake the tddier:
fastantl
exception to that rule in the care of the exploits performed
in India. That would be the last exception he would by
desirous of making.
Those operations, %%Ida it was pro-
posed to the House to reward, were nut carried on under
their eyes ; the places in which they were conducted were
not familiar to them, and it was of the more importance
therefore that they should convince these men nhoset sack
an example in distant countries, that they warn net obli-
vious of their merit, and that they were ready to bestow
11)011 them the sante rewards as if those services were per_
formed under lion. Me " eves. He could not help
, ,
taning toat opportunity of expressing the regret he fit at
the loot of yarn: gallant officers whose services had been-
-mous
oh the utmost importance. It was impossible to give any.
public testimony sufficiently worthy of such services. It
aso,s impossible to read the account ri the sufferings they
etulurtd, and the valour they exhibited, without feelitqzs of
sympathy and admiration ; and when speaking of the exploits
of the Indian army, and when contemplating the be-
stowal of rewards upon the chief', they should also remem-
ber the gallant services of men of inferior rank, toy offering
some solid trdaite of respect to their memory,
Lord HO WICK said, that as on the one band he, in
oramon with the House, had admirei the exploits of the
army under Lord Keane—(he entirely:disregarc'ed, as be al-
ready stated, all that had been said in the bcginninc of the
evening, and he trusted that that subject was fol• ever sib.
posed of)--RS on the one I. nd he thought it impsissibie for
any reasonable mart to oppose the vote now prop o:ed, as,
on the other, Hon. Members ought to prevent the it minds
from receiving any natural bias to the other side, and be
induced to mark their indignation against the charge, so
improperly, as be took it, brought forward in these news..

141VENIN1 EDITION

papers—they should not allow their indignation at that
charges to cause them to give a vote which would other-
wise be called' for but: by good services. He would say
that on the one hand a natural feeling of admiration at the
exploits of the army under Lord Keane, and the reluc-
tance which they must all feel in that House to bring upon
themselves an invidious duty, which would be pain-
ful to an individual, were likely to influence
them, he feared, in too great a degree on the
pre'tnt occasion. In a proposition of the present na-
ture they ought not to be governed by any feelings of that
nature on the one side or the other, but by considerations
of the public interest—( Hear, hear)--and of whatever
that interest required. He believed that in all the greatest
nations of ancient or modern times the wisest monarchs
and rulers showed seine parsimony in the distribution of
rewards. They knew that was the case with respect to
their own Elizabeth, who was particularly. sparing in the
distribution of rewards ; but the consequerfce of that par-
simony—that reserve in using those means of exciting
emulaticn and eagerness in the public service—was, that a
slight reward coming from her carried with it more real
distinction than a far greater one from other rulers ; for
even a simple expression of her approbation was deemed
more honourable than a grant of a peerage from her im-
perious father. With regard to public rewards, they
should only be given on very great and high occasions.
There was a natural tendency on the part of Government
to fall into the opposite error, so strong was the temptation
to acquire popularity by conferring rewards of that nature.
Why was' it that it was now proposed to grant this great
reweru, the Peerage and a pension for three lives? be-
c mac that step had been adopted with too great facility,
2nd without that reserve which he thought it became
them to exercise in propositions of that kind. Those
honoues which cost the country nothing, but which, when
properly distributed, produced a very good effect upon
the mind of the individual, and were felt to he a very great
reward—those honours which cost nothing, by being too
lavishly distributed, had come to be lightly estimated.—
( Hear, hear.) Was it not a remarkable fact, that now at
the end of twenty-six years of peace, when, of course, there
had been no great military or naval services per formed
during that time, and no great additional claims therefore
acquired beyond those existing at the end of the war—was
it not remarkable, he would ask, that, under these circum-
stances, they found the numbers of the groat Military
Orders of the Bath as high, be believed higher, than they
were at the conclusion of the war ?—( Hear, hear.) lie
believed that if a wiser policy had been observed in that
respect, if that honour had been properly husbanded and
reserved for cases of distinguished services and merit, they
would have had a cheap, and, at the same time, a satisfac-
tory mode of rewarding such services. Every consider-
ation, therefore, induced hint to believe that it was
a wise policy not to distribute these rewards
too lavishly. And if he came to apply that principle to
the case which was then before the House, he was aware
that it was very difficult to restrain considerations which
might influence his own mind ; but he thought, looking
upon the whole, he had better not attempt to do so, be-
cause he felt that it would be impossible to enter into that
explanation without using- words which might be construed
possibly, though very much against his wish, into ae inten-
tion to disparage and to diminish the value of the services
of Lord Keane and the exploits of the army. That was
is question, therefore, which after all must be left to the
mind of the individual, and, when he (Lord Howick)
looked at the nature of the service upon which Lord
Keane was employed and at his achievements, he was
bound to say that he did not think, upon the whole, that
those service% were of sufficient importance to justify them
in granting a pecuniary provision, not only for Lord
Keane himself, but for his two immediate successors.—
( Hear, hear.) Ho thought that those services would have
been justly and properly rewarded by the highest honour
which could have been conferred, without calling for a
provision of that kind. He thought also that the case
would have scarcely justified an appeal to the liberality of
the House in favour of Lord Keane himself. But he for
one had the greatest possible reluctance to granting these
pensions, not only in possession to the person who had per-
formed the services, but in reversion to those by whom he
should be succeeded ; and though in each individual case
the pecuniary reward, when compared with the revenue of
this great country, seemed very trifling and inconsiderable,
they must remember the great tendency which cases of that
hind had to accumulate and run up. They granted a pension
for life, which might last for a very great series of years ;
hi the mean time other demands of the same kind would
accumulate until at length the burden would become ex-
ceedingly heavy. He (Lord Howick) could not be blind
no the fact that, already in the form of half-pay and pen-
sions, and of what was commonly called dead weight in
that House, the burden upon the finance of the country
was so great and so heavy, that it had compelled Parlias
-Tent to postpone many grants for active service, which
en thought were very urgently required. The weight of
those demands upon them had bean in times past, and was
still, very severely felt. In his opinion, it was the duty of
the House to avoid with the greatest care the accumula-
tion of charges of that description. He was perfectly
aware that, when he urged these arguments, he was per-
forming a highly invidious duty, but it was a strong sense
of the duty which he owed to those who reposed confidence
in him which impelled him to this course. He thought
that, in watching over the pecuniary interests of the
country, they ought not to be influenced by their own feel.
rags of what it would be liberal, and what it would be a
pleasure to them to do on behalf of brave and gallant
men. They were bound to apportion the rewards
which they gave--not upon those principles, but strictly
according to what they believed to be necessary in order
to stimulate and encourage merit in the public service
in general. That was the only principle upon
which, in his opinion,_ rewards of that kind should be
granted. He was well aware that he was liable to this
answer—that Lord Keane having been now made a Peer it
would be extremely unjust and cruel to him if the House
were to refuse a provision to him and his successors corre-
sponding to the rank which had been conferred upon him.
He was not prepared to deny the force of that argument,
he confessed that it was a consideration which had weighed
greatly with him, and which had considerably increased
the difficulty which he had felt in making up his mind to
give that vote which he had determined to give in reference
to that question. It also made him greatly wish that in
these cases when a pension was to accompany a Peerage,
the custom were different from what it was, and that in-
stead of granting a Peerage in the first case, and then
coming down to that House to ask for a pension, the pen-
sion was proposed in the first instance and the Peerage
were only given upon the success of that proposal.
(Ilear, bear.) Ile thought that it would be a far better
and a wiser and mere reasonable course of proceeding.
But he was quite aware that it had not been the practice
he was quite aware that a different rule had hitherto been
acted upon—and therefore he did not complain of what
had been done in that case. But as that rule bad not been
acted upon, he was bound in this case rot to consider the
hardship of refusal upon the individual in consequence of
the grant of the Peerage, but to consider whether, if the
whole matter were then brought before them for the first
time, if the Peerage were not yet granted, he should be
prepared on the merits of that case to approve of the grant
of the pension rind Peerage together. That was the
ground upon which he felt himself called upon to give an
opinion. The Crown undoubtedly possessed the right of
conferring honour according to its own discretion, and the
Ministers of the Crown were responsible for the
advice which they might give.—( Hear.) But if it
was the clear and undoubted right of the Crown to grant
these honours, it was equally the clear and undoubted
right—nay, more, the incumbent duty—of that House to
exercise a free and unfettered discretion, in re- '
gard to every proposition for an increase of the
burdens of the people.—Hear, hear.) That being the
case, though he greatly regretted the possibility that, if
tile House were to adopt the (-pinion which he had himself
formed upon the subject, the honour which had been con-
ferred upon Lord Keane would rather be au ineunihrance
than a reward—greatly as he might regret that circum-
stance, still he was bound to keep his judgment unbiassed
by it, and to deliver his vote upon those great considerations
of public policy to which he had already adverted. He
would not add any futther remarks in support of the vote
which he should give, except once
more- to say that lie
gave that vote with the most unfeigned reluctance, and
1-
hat it was not inconsistent with
657 setting a very high
value indeed upon the services of Lard Keane and of the
ermy. It
passedprocee afrsoarnrotahte.ereotnviction, that if these
:grants were to y
oodeourse—if no indivi-
duel would take uphoisn
Nh,oiimceselaf,tahienst
tihous and unpleasant
duty of raising
tin increase ease and mul-
would not do that, they would graduall 71—if
Getitlem"
tiply they would become more and
nteount of service would become less and cloemssmonant, the
proportion, the higher rewards for still more distt., n
cervices would have to be screwed up and increased, id'
order to maintain their relative value. It was this strong
conviction, and perhaps he ought to hare taken an carner
opportunity of expressing it, but it teas these considera-
tions which imposed upon him the duty, from which he
could hot shrink, of declaring his disepprohation of the
INC.E.,ure then before the House.—( Cheers.)
Lord JOHNII US SF.L L was very sorry that his Noble
Friend felt it his duty to oppose this vote. Being of an
entirety opposite opinion from his Noble Friend, he oh
relined an opportunity of stating his sentiments upon the
rsahiect. His Noble Friend spoke at length of the re-
mewls made to the ancient generals, and commended the
-persimony of the Romans, But it was to be recollected,
that with respect to '.nose times, very different rewards
were to be obtained, —a Roman general returned laden with
spoils.—(Chettass.) His Noble Friend lied also alluded to
The rewards bestowed ire the time of Elizabeth: New,
even in chat time Sir Francis Drake brought home with
bird, such a quantity of silver as would have shccked the
reople of the present day had they seen it in the case of
hair John Keane. In those days the Crown had the power
no reward with lands, privileges, and monopolies, which
w these days would not be tolerated; while even Sir
3
Walter Raleigh had a pension ofooo/. a_year granted
bit by Elitabeth—a sum much gr. Cater, considering the
period, than that no-e proposed. Then the Crown could
wonfer high offices, or grant liege sinecures or pensions, to
lam
e who had performed any signal service to the '
coun-
try ; but all that was now abolislied— the House of Corn-
mons had very properly said that all this power should
not reetain in the Crown, and where money rewards were
to be granted, the House of Commons should be con.
suited, in order that it might have an o -
portunity of showing its gratitude to those per-
sons who had performed eminent services to.
wards their country. Was not the case under consider-
ation, one in which emincut services had been performed ?
—( Cheers.) It was a case which admitted of no doubt,
and the services had been duly considered and fully ac-
knowledged by the House last year. Now, suppose that
tie case had been reversed—even suppose that she policy
o! the Government had been entirely wrong, they de.
sired the army to cross the Indus. Suppose Sir .John
Keane hest made objections respecting the difficulties of
the Bolan pass, or compleineci of the smallness of his
army, as compared with the force he was ordered against,
or that he had returned front time enterprise unsuccessful,
wseohualtdwhoauvlde
hheacvn u,,J
esbee; dangers to which the empir.
s,eat'e'ool7---i; Cheers.) Had sue!) been,
afortunately, the `
dencumstancrs, the Govern-
ment mutt have cone
tolo.otohoe
mneogne,e,whaienldi
asked an onceadditin t- heoor :e•
would have been c.eary to restore. that moral force

which we would have lost, and an expenditure of probably
some 300,000/. would have been essentially necessary, in
order to secure the Indian Empire.—(Cheers.) It was,
in fact, a matter of pounds, shillings, and pence,
after all. They had followed the example set them
by the cases of those officers who were promoted
after the glorious termination of the war in 1815,
and it seemed to him to be the reasonable course
to pursue, for it would be a mockery to offer a
Peerage to any deserving general, without at the same
time giving him the means of supporting the dignity.
His Noble Friend said they ought to come to that House
for the pension, before they granted the Peerage. That
was a doctrine to which he could not agree ; it was most
unconstitutional ; and while he remained a Minister of
the Crown, he would never bring forward any resolution
for a grant of money, upon the decision of which de-
pended the bestowal of a Peerage.—(Cheers.) Were
such a doctrine to obtain, it would be a heavy blow even
to democracy. What was to become of a younger brother,
or a man who had risen from the ranks—of any poor man
who might have performed great and gallant services to
the Crown, if the prerogative of the Crown were to be so
abridged? Upon all these grounds, and as it was not, and
could not be called a political question, as it was to re-
ward eminent services rendered to the country, he trusted
that the House would support the Resolution which was
before it.

Mr. HUNIF. said that no man ought to be influenced
in his vote on this occasion by the charge which had been
made against Lord Keane. He objected to the grant, on
'he ground that it was an attempt to pension the aristo-
cracy at the expense of the people.—( Hear, hear.) He
(lid not object to the Qaeen's creating as many Peers as
she liked. She might make Lords arid Dukes in shoals.—( A
laugh.) The more she made the less value would the
possessors of titles put upon their dignities. But did the
Noble Lord mean to surround her Majesty with a pauper
aristocracy, supported by pensions ? The Noble Lord
proposed to continue the pension for two generations.
Eut why not carry out his principle to the third? How
was the great-grandson of Lord Keene to support the
dignity of the peerage without a pension ? He could show
in the Pension List mothers and daughters of pauper
Peers, and did the Noble Lord think it right to increase
the number ?—( Hear, hear.) The question was asked,
ought not her Majesty to reward meritorious individuals ?
—and allusion was made to the course which he (Mr.
Hume) took when he brought the question of sinecure
offices before the House. Ile did not depart from what
he said then, that it would be better, if men merited re-
wards, to come to Parliament for a grant. But why not
,create life Peerages 1—( Hear, hear.) Those who placed
so high a value upon the Peerage, ought net to degrade it
by giving it to persons who were not able to maintain its
dignity without taking money out of the pockets of the
people. It would be more honourable to Lord Keane and to
the Government, and safer to the country, to give him a
Peerage for life, with sufficient to maintain his dignity so
long as he lived, hut not to take his children out of the
ranks of the middle classes, in which they could maintain
themselves with credit by their own exertions. A second
objection to the grant was the state of the finances.—
( Hear, hear.) We were not able to pay the debts we
owed already.—(Cheers.) There hail been in the last four
years an aggregate deficiency of five millions.—( Hear,
hear.) The aristocracy were always ready to pension
people out of the money of the people, at the same time
that they themselves avoided, by all possible means, to
contribute their fair share towards bearing the burthens
of the country.—( Hear, hear.)
Sir HUSSEY VIVIAN, after so long intimacy with
Lord Keane, hoped the House would allow him to say a
few words on the present occasion. He did not mean to
reply at any length to the arguments of the Hon. Gen-
tleman, bat one observation he must make in answer to
the Hon. Member's question, whether the officers of the
British army were stimulated by the hope of pensions?
He could inform the lion. Gentleman that the officers were
actuated by as honourable feelings as any body of men in
the world. Nine-tenths of them bought their commissions
at the full value of their pay, and gave their gratuitous
services to their country.—(Cheers.) But it was only
right that an officer, who had rendered such distinguished
services as Lord eane, should receive the honour
which it was now proposed to confer on him. He would
remind his Hon. Friend, that when an officer obtained
these high rewards for gallant services, it stimulated and
encouraged others to similar deeds of gallantry. It was
unnecessary for him to go into the details of the brilliant
affair of the taking of Ghuznec, but it was an action that
ha-I completed the triumph of their arms in that part of
India, and had restored the throne to its rightful possessor.
Mr. NI UNTZ did not wish to disparage the services of
Lord Keane. He had no objection to their giving him
an ample and honourable reward, but he did not think
that either be cr the House had any right to tax those who
were yet to be born for such a purpose.—( Hear, hear.)
Sir H. HA R. DINGE reminded the Hon. Member for
Kilkenny, that he had stated, upon the Naval and Military
Commission, that he wished all military appointments to
be taken away fi om the Crown, but when a fair case was
made out, let Government come down with a fair propo.
sition and it would be supported. Now when they bad
done so the lion. Member turned round upon them. He
confessed he did not think such conduct quite consistent.
Mr. BROTH E RTO N said they ought rather to confer
distinctions on those who had saved lives, instead of con-
ferring them on those who had caused so great a destruc-
tion of human life.—( Hear, and laughter.) He would
remind them of Captain Clegg, who had last year saved
upwards of a hundred lives, and who had not received the
slightest reward. He wished to see the Government imi-
tating the example of the King of the French in that
respect.
Sir R. JENKINS supported the motion.
General JOHNST 0 N E did not wish to detract from
the merits of Lord Keane, but he objected to so wasteful
an expenditure of the public money.
Colonel SIBTHORP would not be doing his duty to
his country if he did not give his decided support to the
motion.

Lord HO WICK explained. He thought the allusions
made to him in the course of the debate were quite incon-
sistent with the usages of the House. His Noale Friend
the Secretary of State had not done justice to his argu-
ment. He had never intended in all cases to object to the
union of Peerages and pensions as the reward of great
services, for, as he had before stated, in any great cases
of military services he approved of it. But it was only in
ruch cases he thought it justifiable, or even customary, and
he believed that even the greatest of our naval commanders,
Lord Nelson, did not receive the reward of a Peerage and
a pension until so late in his brilliant career as the battle
of the Nile.

Colonel SA LWE Y could not avoid expressing his re-
gret that her Majesty's Ministers had been so ill advised as
to propose the continuance of this grant to the two suc-
cessors of Lord Keane. With regard to the conduct of
Lord Keane he believed it could not be said that there was
a more gallant officer in the service, but he must oppose a
grant to his two successors, which he considered to be in.
jurious and erroneous in principle. He must again express
his regret that such a grant should have been proposed by
her Majesty's Ministers, and it was his opinion that the
contrast between their professions in that House and their
conduct out of it was melancholy in the extreme.—(lroni-
cal cheer; from the Opposition.)
The House then divided, when there appeared
For the motion
Against it
Majority —ls2