The Sun.
London, England, 1812-05-27 00:00:00

MN UTE S OF EVIDENCE

Taken Wore the Commiice .of the whale House,
to-.lehcr, v' nfeired, to consitier of the several
virtue been prerr..,t4,4-1 to the
of CoOlmon,3, in this Session: ef Parliament,
against the Orders in:C-44;261.

.cfc' die Apriria, I,#) e.
TIiOM.A.S:i3NBINGTON, ESQ. the Chair.

[Continued from our. Paper of Yeeerday.]
With -respect to. the competition of Continehtel
manufactures with - odds, the
4 •
examina,tiOn: will be found interesting s •
Did you ever see any a the articles which were
furnished from the Crintinent, of the same kind as
those which are furnished from Birmingham, so as
to compare the quality of the one with that of the
other have had a great many. articles' sent, to
'get mine as near as possible to them,locks,hinges,'
adzes, hoes, and a variety of articles; and we have
made them tolerably near, but ours 'same, I under-
stand, considerably higher in nriee tliar.those made

in foreign parts.
Were not ours better ?—Ours were less' clUmr,y,
and better made ; certainly there was no compari-
son. •
better-tools ?—Yes ; the articles manufac-
tined in Germany, in general, are of a veryclumsy
kind, there is a great deal of iron in them, but not
so neat; they are very durable.
Have von received' any information on which
von can depend, lately, concerning the- state of
tile-Continental manufactures %---Not very lately,
it is as Much as four years sinCel had any intelli-
genc,:e; I have received patterns from the Brazils,
of foreign fabrics, within these two years, to. imi-
tate, and get goods made to. •
Do you know whether there is any considerable
manufacture of, hardware near Trieste,?—There
are several manufactories near Trieste,' which were
tolerably extenSivefour years ago; I had the par-
ticulars from 'several; they Made a great number,
of similar articles to those made in Birmingham,
br-Ns work and iron goods-of various kinds.
You have not received any recent account ?
:nOt a recent account. _
Where is the seat of the principal maunfactories
on the Continent, of articles similar to those ma-
nUfactured at Birmingham ?—Nails are made in'
considerable quantities, and of a • good quality, at
Liege; nails have been made in some quantities in
the neighbourb.ood of Oporto; I have patterns of,
them at home; and there are other.manufactures
of Geriiaany;. at Aix-la-Chapelle, at Liege, at
Ranastbt, in Germany, and _Several others. in the ,
neighboprhoiid of Trie,ste. ; 1 do not recollect the
names of the places, tut from Holland all the way
to TrA!:if.e, at every small town there are manufac-
tories.
The principal ma,pufactories are in the neigh-
s bourhood of Aix-la-Chapelle and Liege ?—lres,
and a place called Ramshot ; I do not know ex-
actly- the situation of that, not having eve: been •

abroad. •
Are those
places conveniently situated for e:t-
portation, by means of the rivers froth the north
of Germany ?---Yes, they are conveniently situate;
I serve some of the oldest houses in Lisbon, who
have inFi-yrrned me they received. a larger portion of
gOods just priorcto 1807, of similar .articles to
those of Birrningllarn, shippfal at Amsterdam, that '
were sent doh-n from the different manufactories.
in Germany to Lisbon, than they did from Bir-
mingham, and because they got them cheaper.
Are you aware th,q. part of these ports in the
north of Germany, from which the xnanufactu.res
of Liege and Aix -la-Chapellecan be exported, are
not blockei up by the Orders in Council ?—I do not
understand the ope,ration'of the Orders in Council,
I have never studied them.
Do not you think that if the ports•in the north
of Germany, for instance, the Weser, and the Elbe,
and the Ems, were open to theexportatiol, of the
manufactures of Aix-la-Chapelle and Liege, while
our manufactures wete prohibited in America,
that such a state of things would afford great en-
couragement to the manufactories on the Conti-
nent ?—f do not think t 1 Americans would take
many of thein ; it might overate against the Bra-
-zils, and in Portugal, but, I do not think in the
United States that the'atticles. suit them so well,
for they like the,Birminghant articles bitter; and
even in Portugal I do not think we should he in so
much danger as we were, for our articles are made
by machinery cheaper than they were in. 1897.
Do -you-think thnt the merchants cif Birmingham
would fear competition with any manufacturer on.
the Continent or elsewhere in any country where
the trade was open ?-,:i\TO, I think we should al--
ways have the best share of it, considerably.
Do you think that the manufacturers 'of 134-
,
rniugham min he undersold in the South Ame-
rican market by, the manufacturers at Liege, and
Aix-la-Chapelle, if their goodS could be export-
ed ?—Not in a great variety of artiCles, in son
certainly. •
_ _

ks to the reduction of the Continental Trade.,
the fol,)miTng' is evidence of this witness :
.'l7O What Cause do you ascribe the dininution of
your trade to'the Continent?—The r;sk of send:.
fag goods into many of tile. pans of the Continent
too gkreat for _us-to-think or it ; • I haveldecrined
one market after another, till laln confined; in-
s!-eld of ten ports of the Continent, I only export, .
and that in a scl/4111 degree, to twist : Germany and
the' firazils, Italy 'and Switzerland, where 1 did
ranch business before, I can •dO none now,with
safety : to Holland 1 'never did any, •to Russia
there are very few Birmingham articles eompara7
tively go
What is the oaiist of the risks which .exist now,
which did not exist before 3—We cannot land the
goods in the nearer parts of the Continci.L
By what law or what nt,,i.V syAtem'is.it that they'
eanUot art., be 'imported where yOu formerly sent
them ?—They v0c;.,1 be knOwn to be Engiish.
Would they not have been exposed at any time
durinl if had been English prOperty
rfil. within these fear years we used to send some
of them there, and g-e. paid for them.
What has happened within these four years that
prevents thht trade to the CeMinent ?—I cannot
tell how it may have operated upon others', but I
myself saw the risk so -gteat that' 1 withdrew
from it.

Is it jav or sye!tem upon tte
Continent ?—That part ofthc Continent which is
near, I was,more particularly speaking of now, to
Germany' or Italy, we have made no attempts to
send for ...some time there.
Is it b.,;, anv change of law or system upon the
Continent ?:--`jes; we consider there is so great a
risk we do not uncit•rtake to send them ; from the
Freneb. Decrees, -. the Berlin Decrees, or whatever
they arc called ; as to the near parts, I mean.

Then it is the French, Berlin, and other De-•
creel, thet have produced this diminution of your
tAnde td the Continent ?—To my own particular
trade, I cannot say how• it is-as to others.
Do you know of any other general cause which
has'Aiministked she tracti'of our merchee.ts in the
same line ?—I believe. the manufactures on the
Continent ere substituted' in the stead of ours a
good deal.
- 'From what cause is that substituted ?—I con-
ceive from the difficulty of geiting those from
I
England.
The diffieulty,arising -from the French decrees
—Chiefly from that ; that is what hOS deterred me
from it, certainly.
when you say ebielly, do you mean that there
ova's. any other cause but the French decrees, which
has mode the difference you speak. of ?-e—There
were difficulties on every side Which , deterred
,me
from attempting it ; houses in our toWn, thet were
partly French, have declined it for some time, and
•of course I could not attempt to carryeit on ; I
never was much in that trade within these six
years, Rotel° the near Continent, I declined it in
kgreat measure six years ago..
You have been interrogated as to the Berlin
and Milan Decrees having conked the diminution.
of the exportation of Birmingham wares to the
Continent ; since the Orders in ' Council have
those exports of Birmingham ivates• 'to the Con,
tinent been revived, which the Berlin and 'Milan
Decrees put a stop to ?-1. believe almost altoge-,
ther they have ceased to- exist; exports -to the
nearer parts_of the Continent fot the last three or
four. years.. . -
'then after. the .Berlin and 'Milan .Decrees had
prevented or done a great dealtowards preventing
-the exports. to the Continent,' the British Orders
in .Council did not revive those exports have
exported. none,myself since the Orders in Conn-,
tit have been enforced, .and for some time bbfbre ;
and I believe the exports to the Continent of Bii-
minghana wares have been very limited. • .
Have other traders, in your opinion, exported
more to the Continent since the Orders in Court,'
cil ?--No, their trade has decrea.sed, and is now
almost extinct. -
. .

Haveyo'l. ever declined. exporting to the Coriti-
neat in American or other neutral vessels ?---Ou'r
shippers have - generally had the- charge of that,
and that does not fall.within y knowledi.te.
With respect to the effect of the o:ders in
Council' on the trade to the Continent, he stiles
in his evidence as follows :
Do you think the falling off of the trade of Bir-
mingham is attributable to the Orde'rs Coun7
have never made myself sufficiently ac-
quainted with the nature and operation of the
Orders in Coucil, to be able to ,answer that
question. ,
As Chairman of the Chamber of Commerce of
the town of Birmingham, does not it fall under
your province to make yourself acquainted with
the Orders.in CounciL believe not, and for

this reason, the operation of the Orders in Cvn-
cii, as far as I understand,. has affected the trade
of the United States more than to the Conti-
nent,
,and the trade to the:United. States does not
belong to our- society at all; I have nothing to
do with it. -

_
Do not
,you think tbetli'stresies of the poor in
Birmingham are greatly owing to the high prices
,of bread, in consequence of last year's scarcity ?
They are more owing, to the want of, employment
I believe ; ints.ed I know it, from the number of
manufacturer I have occasion to go to in Bir-
rningham arid .the neighbourhood; I generally
take .my orders round myself, and find. a.great
number of the shops not nearly so fall as they
used to be; they suffer fro-n ti)i.want of employ-
ment partly; certainly, from the price of plpvi-

sions.
Supposing we enjoyed at this time great plenty,
instead of suffering a scarcity, and bread was
consequently. cheap, do you think we should have
heard many complaintS ?—Certainly we should, as
to :two parts out of three.; certainly the cause is
the:wantof employ inert that is so general, that
one cannot go into a manufactory without per-
ceiving( it ; I, beg to be understood as to large
manufactories ;_ I 'except those work ex-
clusively for. the home trade, and there are few ; •
I speak of those employed in foreign commerce.
-.Have you, as Chairman of the Chamber of Com-
merce, heard much Of the Berlin and Mil4n De-
crees ?—.--7.srot a great deal.
DO you know whether they are repealed, or
whether they are now in force ?—I Cannot tell
from my own knowledge.-
Have you heard.or do you conceive they are re-
pealed or are now la full force ?----Sorne tlme ago.
I understood they Were repealed, bdt- I cannot.
say ;- it was so mentioned. •
Do you kno,,V when the Berlin Decree was pro-
laulgated ?—Not precisely. .
Do you know whether the' Orders in. Council
were,or Were not subsequent to the promulgation
of those Decrees ?—I do not recollect the exact
times of either.
Were the Orders in—Connell-subsequent or not
to the promulgation of the Berlin Decrees-?—I
never Made myself particularly- arquainted 'with
this, because they do 'not affect my own partiL-
lar trade. _

Dd not you know, as Chairman of the C,hara
ter of Commerce, *hether the Orders in Council
were antecedent or subsequent to the proniniga-
tion of the Berlin Decrees ?-4 think I answered
befOre, that, conceiving them to afieCt the North
American trade, with •which we were not cog.-
nected, we paid but tittle attention to them.
Do you not conceive they bear on other trades
besides 'those to America %---Not so much cer-
tainly.

Did you ever hear that the Orders in Council
vrere meant as. retaliatory ?-1 have heard them

No'. 3b. Maiden-lane

Covent,

:arden; and