The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-23 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY
_MORNING, MARCH. 23, 1847.

which he wished to call attention before he concluded. What
a benefit would it be to allow those, who retired from
the service,. to go back well satisfied with the treat-
ment they bad received. If they could send them
back with good moral habits acquired—with ideas of
habit and obedience strongly impressed en them, their
example would do more in bringing recruits to the army than
any other measures they could adopt. He was quite sure of
this that the House would give him credit that he would not
propose any measure for its adoption if he or any of her Ma-
jesty's Government believed that there existed a single source
' of daeger, or that it would injure in any waythe
a service,
success of which he had sincerely at heart. With this feeling
he trusted that the House would mark with its approbation the
principle of a limited enlistment, and in order that the House
might embody that principle in a legislative enactment, he
would place his Bill before ill, m, with an earnest hope that the
House would ace the necessity of giving its support to it.
Sir HOWARD DOUGLAS said that he had, on a former
occasion, voted strongly against this measure, and he bad found
no reason to change his opinion. After a service of consider-
able duration, after having had much experience in the prac-
tical Working of the present system in every quarter of the
world to which the British arms were carried, it was his delibe-
rate and confirmed opinion that this measure was unnecessary
and ill-timed, and he should, therefore, be reluctantly com-
pelled to wi,bhoid his consent to it. But it was not
his intention to meet this measure with a direct nega-
tive, or to propose any amendment. Her Majesty's
Government had determined to try this experiment, and the
illustrious Duke at the head of the army had also acceded
to it. He (Sir H. Douglas) would, therefore, confine him-
self at present to the mere expression of his dissent, with the
reasons which induced Wei to come to that decision. He la-
mented the changes that were taring place; he g•ieved to see
the spirit of change that was abroad; he lamented the change
that was daily occurring in those commercial regulations—re-
gulations which had raised England to the highest state of great-
ness. He could not concur in the preamble of this Bill, that it
was expedient to make an alteration in the period of enlistment.
He ( Sir Howard Doug eta i thought it u as inexpedient to
make this alteration. lie did not think this change necessary
by any practical, political, constitutional. or statistical consi-
deration. He thought that it could not be justified by ex-
perience or by any rule which might be adopted with
safety. They found no diXteulty in recruiting then.
the supply was greater than the demand.—(Hear, hear.)
The army was complete in all its arrangements; it was in a
pertsct state of ea:Loamy, its disciplime was most admirable,
and he was happy to say that the moral and social condition of
the soldiery was greatly improved. This measure would be
inconvenient in its working, expensive in its organisation, and
ill-timed in its introductiman. The Hon. arid Gallant Member
then referred to certain statistical details, to show that
desertiOns in the army had been less frequent in a state of
extended, than under a limited, enlistment. The measure was
not intended to obviate a scarcity for the stock of the army,
for he had taken care to inform himself upon this point, and
he had ascertained that in the year ending 31st Aprit, 1346,
tnere offered themselves for enlistment not less than 00.00,
some of these were rejected ere they came before the medical

jority who joined the service were disgusted with it. Now, he
thought this a most improper observation for o. e in the position
of that Right lion. Gentleman. He considered that it re-
quired three years at least to make a man who came from the
tail of the plough—and they were the best recruits—to make
him a good and perfect dragoon ; but when men were sent
out as detachmetos, they required extra ; and looking
at the expense which was incurred, he thought the country
would be ill -served if a man was entitled to leave the army at
so early a period as that proposed.
ialej LAYARD said that he felt a deep interest in the
measure now offerert to the House, for from the moment he
entered the senesce he felt that the bargain made by the
country with the private soldier wee an unjust one. He re-
gretted that the lion. and Gallant Officer the Member for Li-
verpool was not there, for there were some points us his speech
which he (Major Layard) should be able satisfactory to answer.
He had authorities higher than that of the Gallant
Officer foe stating that many points in his speech were incorrect.
When he brought forward this subject in 1b42, Sir H. Her-
(bilge gave it as his opinion that a measure for limited enli,t-
ment deserved the attention of the Government. Two Go-
vernments had taken it into consideration, and the Military
Commission had had upon it officers old and experienced as his
Gallant Friend, who had also given it in favour of the measure.
His Gallant Friend had alithled to the difficulty of maintaining
an army during a protracted war with a limited enlistment, and
had in the same breath alluded to the amount of money which
could be paid to these men up in re-enlistment. It appeared,
therefore, from his own arguments that the men would enlist
again, and it was his belief that no man would leave his
c7lours in the British army while there was an enemy
before them. The Honourable and Gallant Officer stated
that it would be unwise to alter the existing state
of things in the ai my, for that the army was happy
enough as it was. lit three years out of 110,000 men
260.00 men had been put in gaol, B,eoo had des:: ted and
4,0.,0 had undergone corporal punishment. That was the
happy army alluded to by the gallant officer any change which
had been hitherto mate had always produced a beneficial
effect. '1 he Hon. and Gallant Officer had said that this was
not a time for a change. Was not any time the proper time
for doing justice ? What reason could be urged fur its being
delayed? The soldier had no power to complain, ar ti no
power to petition—and why should he be compelled from
delays to suffer in plate. When the late Secretary at War
brought forward this subject was there not a feeling in the
House that the measure was not to rest as he had placed it.
was it nut felt that it was but the beginning of the change,
and why did the Hon. anti Gallant Gentleman now oppose
what he had before suffered to pass away in silence? Why had
he not opposed the propesition of the Secretary at War?
Sir H. DOUGLAS--t opposed it when you brought it out.
Major LA YARD —Yes, the Gallaut Officer ()posed it
when he brought it forwaro ; but why slid he not oppose it
when the secretary at War brought it forward ?
Sir H. DOUGLAS—I was not in the Home.
Major LA YA HD The subject was not then of sufficient
importance to induce the Gallant Gentleman to oppose
it, and why did he de so now ? The Honourable
:slid Gallant Officer who had last spoken had opposed
the measure, and had stated that there would not be
e proper opportunity in many iListances of punishing disobe-
dience. It did not require twenty-one years to do that. Men,
as the lion. and Gialint Officer said, grew wise by experience;
he hoped they did. if any Gentlen.au hart asked him (Major
Layard) before 1e42 it he should enlist, he should tell him not,
and fir the following reason—That the bounty which was
promised was no bounty at alt. That it did Pot pay
for their necessaries, that they joined their regiment in debt—
that the arms which they gave were inefficient, as he had seen
100 out oh 1300 miss fire. If rh-y tv,re sent out to India, they
remained for 24 years, and the charices were fifty to one ageinst
their coming back. That in the West India islands tac [nor-
tality was enormous, being 21,421 s!nce lbl7. That no
medals were given for hard and long service That they got
salt provisions five days in the week, and that a deduction of
five per cent. was made from their pensions when they had
earned them. As the law was, he could describe the reverse of
these things, and under the present system he should advise a
man to enlist.. He would get more bounty, better arms,
better treatment and food, and more consideration paid for long
servitude. He owned that, so far as the 11:11 now before the
House went, he did not feel quite satisfied with it ; and, in
saying so, he might, perhaps, appear to take an ungrateful
course, seeming to oppose a Bill which had been brought for-
ward
by a Government that had his support ; but he felt it ne-
eessary to state an objection when it arose. It was with that ,
view that he had given notice of a clause which he would
move to be introduced between the third and fourth
clauses of the measure, as it stood at present. There were
difficulties in dealing with all the details of the objects which
such a measure was meant to provide for—difficulties that
were exceedingly increased to him (Major Layard), who did
not have the information which the books at the Horse Guards
' could so minutely give him. But the effect of the clause of
which he had given notice would be, that atter three
years these men now in the service should be allowed
to take advantage of the provisions of this measure,
always provided that they gave three months notice of such
intention to the officer in command. But he had a considera-
tion to submit to the Government. It had been said by many
Hon. Members of that House, and it was the feeling out of
doors, that promotion at the Horse Guards was a one-sided
opinion only, and no other ; he would have sat still and said
nothing. but as it was the feeling of many, very many, of his
fellow officers, as well as of many whose interest did not lead
them sodirectly to the subject, and he felt bound now to say,
that it was his own opinion also, that promotion at the Horse
Guards was not impartial. Why, the Noble Lord now at the
head of the Government, in a speech widen he made in 1842,
when the Right Hon. Baronet opposite was in office, took the
very paint which he (Major Layard) felt now so
anxious to impress upon her eiajesty's Government. The
Honourable and Gallant Gentleman hart quoted fr,,m the
Noble Lord's speech in Hansard, in the course of which that
Noble Lord referred to the opinion expressed by the Duke of
Wellington, that the commander-in-chief might not to be a
memb r of the Cabinet, its order that no bias might exist in
his mind in reference to promotions. But (the Hon. and
Gallant Gentleman continued) the Right Hon. Baronet oppo-
site said, in answer to the Noble Lord, that that would not
make any difference. Now, un the contrary, he believed it
die make a difference, and for this reason. He knew that
many of his feilow-officers had a wish in the case of an electron
to stand upon principles which, till very lately, had not pre-
vailed in the army ; but these gentlemen were not prepared to
eve up their profession. Why, he believes he was the only
officer or, that aide of the House, except the Nob e Lord the
Member for Lichfield, on full ray. Now what he meant to
say was, that any Government I ilmured under a great
evil when the promo ion., (1 which there occurred
seven hundred a year, were all in the power of
a partizan. It was nnpesoble in that ease 'hat those on his
(Major L ;yard's) side of the House could have the same
chance with those on the other side; and that was unfair—
very unfair That was a circumstance which be believed
operated strongly against the; present Government. which had
been called into power in a time of difficultii s, enough of which
there were to contend with, barring any such additional ins-
pediment as that to which he had adverted. He wished that
promotions shook be impartially conferred on gentlemen,
whether they voted fur or - '

officer, but 16,563 were examined,-out of this number 5,143
were rejected, arid 11,420 enlisted. Within the present year
no fewer than 21,000 offered themselves for enlist-
ment. The stock of the army, which was com-
posed principally of the children of the soil, was
admirable. At least six-tenths of their soldiery had
been agricultural labourers, and as they got up in the scale of
education, they proved inferior soldiers. It had been alleged
that the army was composed of the riff-raff of the country,
that the members were ignorant, illiterate, and vicious. They
had it to boast that they improved and educated these persons,
and returned them to their country better men than they
found them. He found that the great proportion of the
cavalry and line was composed of agricuiturs.l labourers; that at
least 643 out of every 1,000 belonged to this class, and they
made the best soldiers. Advancing in the scale, he found me-
chanics and artizens, and they were inferior men to the others.
Then they had ruined tradesmen, shopmen, and shop clerks,
and they were still worse, and the highest class of all, profes-
sional men, persons educated for the Church, medical students,
and law licentiates, made the worst of soldiers, and in this
category he would particularly place the licentiates of law.
It was said that it was derogatory to the character of freemen.
to permit them to enlist for an unlimited period, but he found
that bath history and the best authorities disproved that state-
ment. If the Bill were strictly carried out, he did not doubt
that there would be a cry got up that they were going to con-
vert England into a military country, but he would lease theory
and come to what he thought wcuid be the practical ope-
ration of this Bill in the time of a protracted war. Now had
the system of limited enlistment prevaded during the late war
he would venture to say that England never could have suc-
ceeded in the manner she did. lee dispatches of the Dukes of
York and Wellington showed that the succe.ses of that period
were effected by said soldiers, who had long b_en engaged in the
service, and he, tt erefore, heti a right to assume that, had the
stale beers lines cd enlistment, this country never could have
maintained the war.--( Hear, hear.) Previous to the year
ISI3, during the Peeinsular war, there were very few enlist-
ments in the British army, and the consequence was, this
country had to seend a large sum of money to avert the eves
of a temporary system of enlistment, and to secure the re-enlist- '
ment of risen whose time of retirement had arrived. The latter
readily consented in the emergency to remain in the army to
defend the rights of their native laud, and had it not been tor
their previous experience in arms, they never could have
attained the glorious contests they did. He warned Govern-
ment, then, of the mischiefs this bill would inlet upon the
country. Iu the event of another war, they would experience
the sad operations of this Bill upon the marines, while a very
shirt time wuule show, if its provisions were to be applied te
the Sappers and elinere, that it would entirely destroy the effi-
ciency of that ody of men. Fur his own part, therefore, he
was decidedly averse to any chaege in the present system. It
would prove dangerous to the Constitution, and might place
the Colonies in jeopardy. He was an advocate for early en-
listment and tramog in the ar.ny, and had always regretted
that military colonization had been neglected by the various
Governments tit' this country. Rather than take the
steps they were now doing, her Majesty's present
advisers eteserit to haat, turns i their attention to that
subject, and endeavoured to astertaen if the country
and the army, could not be benefited by iatroducing improve-
ments into the prevailing system of military colonization.
Let them raise the soldier in the scale of society, and there
would be no want of a better class of men. Let them secure
them rewards and encouragement, and they would invest
that calling with attractions, tvli!ch would hove the
effect of enticing good men into the service of their
country. With regard to panishrnents, he thought
that a soldier should not be sent to prison unless
for some crime of a disgraceful nature. Every ;light breach of
military discipline should not be seeded in that manner, the
consequence of which invariably was to degrade those who
were subjected to it. With respect to the measure before the
House, he thought its effect would be to cause a great diminu-
tion in the number, and the amount of the pensions to be
granted at the termination of the period of service. At this
time, when the army was brought to such a state of efficiency,
he thought that this experiment should have been avoided, as
it would be found unsatisfactory. expensive, and prejudicial to
the interests of the army in its operation.
Colonel REID thought the measure under consideration
would not accomplish its object ; secondly, that it was wholly
unnecessary; and thirdly, that it would impair the physical
efficiency of the army, and create jealousy and dissatis-
faction. Of what avail would the army of this country
have been, even under the guidance of Wellington, if, when
opposed to the great usurper, it had not been composed of
strong men, who, in addition to moral courage, possessed
physical efficiency. He believed, that by adopting a period
of limited enlistment, one eighth at least of tee force of the
cavalry would be lost to the country. The consequence would
beethat there would be an army of boys instead of an army of
really efficient men. He had a perfect horror of an army of
such a nature. He had seen an exhibition of the conduct of
such an army at the siege of Antwerp, where, two sallies
Laving been made by the besieged, they destroyed all the
works and entrenchments in a few hours, which would have
taken at least a fortnight to have done had the besiegers
not been panic-stricken and useless as they were
on that occasion.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") He
thought, that if Mr. Wyndham's plans of limited
enlistment were to be carried out, the Government ought at
least to carry out the other plans of that gentleman, for provid-
ing more liberal pay, and more liberal pensions to the soldiers.
The pension to a private for serving his full time, was at pre-
sent only 6d. a day, and that of a non-commissioned officer Sd.
lie thought that at least the minimum pension to the private
soldier should be raised to 9d., and to the non-commissioned
officer Is. He trusted that the subject of more liberal pay and
pensions would receive the fullest consideration of her Majesty's
Government. He thought that by far the better mode of im-
proving the army, would be by the introduction of systems cal-
culated to improve the social and moral condition of the
soldiers themselves. Let them be treated in such a manner
that they might consider that they were respected by the
country. The country owed much to their valour and to the
hardships which they had undergone :n all climates for long
seasons for the sake of preserving untarnished, the honour and
the interests of the country. With respect to the officers, he
believed that they had it always nearest to their hearts to in-
Crease as much as possible the comforts of the soldier, and he
thought that the present Bill would tend to looser, the ties
which existed between the officers and men. He would not,
although he disagreed with the principle of the Bill, oppose its
further progress.
Sir DE LACY EV ANS did net see in the present measure
any ground for such fears as had been expressed by
the speakers who had preceded him. With respect
to the fear that it would not be safe to go to war with men
who had only been in the service for ten years, he would remind
any Hod. Member who entertained that opinion, that all the
other nations of Europe were of opinion that it was safe to go
to war even at a less period then that. He did not see any
reason to doubt the efficieticy of yuun4 troops. As to the case
reftvred to by the Hon. and Geilant Member who last ad-
dressedpie House, of the young men being driven from the
trenches at Antwerp, he had seen many veteran soldiers who
had often done the same thing. At St. Sebastian they did so,
but they rallied again, and he had often seen many young troops
if not outstrip at least equal the valour of more veteran troops.
As to the perfection of, the army in the field, it did not de end

they were not sure of getting oven this small stipend; and for the purpose of founding the Dublin library, about which
when men had asked him if they were soon to get it, -he had the Learned Recorder knew nothing.—(Laughter.) But, in
told them that they must not look forward with any certainty fine, believing that the British soldier would derive great be-
to it. It was often held out by those engaged in recruiting, nefit from that measure he would give it his cordial support.
that a man might obtain his discharge free of expense at The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
any time. Now, proper information should be promulgated on committed that night week.
this subject, so that the ignorant might not bs deceived, and t POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
led into so serious a contract, without knowing its exact na- I On the order of the day for going into Committee on this
ture. The Right Honourable Gentleman spoke of endeavour- Bill being read,
lug to obtain a higher class of men ; but he (Colonel Lind- I Lord G. BENTINCK rose and said he wished to call the
say) considered that the army could do without gentlemen
clerks or half gentlemen, as the army could not be better re- ' attention of the House to the statement made by the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, as to the pcssibi-
cruited than at present. A more rigiddiscipline must be main.
. lily of an incorrect return et the deaths that had taken place in
twined in the British army than in that of other nations
Ireland. It would be recollected that the Right Hon. Gentle-
Here we could not afford to have any waste, but when they man said there was no possibility of obtaining a correct register
considered the high pay and the high pensions of the police,
of the deaths in Ireland, inasmuch as no return was made of
and the great numbers who now obtained employment as rail- the deaths that took place there. Now, the Right Hon. Gen-
way officers, he apprehended they would find that a better class tleman in making that statement was entirely mistaken. In
of men could not be obtained. They had done well by sel.ct- proof of this, he (Lord G. Bentinck) had had letters from ac-
ing men from the working classes, and by continuing to adopt veral clergymen in Ireland, who stated that by the canon law
the same plan, he had no doubt the same result would take every Protestant elerg, man was bound on the 25th of
place. Greater inducements ought to Its held out to cause March of every year to make a return of all the deaths
men who had served for fifteen years to rejoin the army ; bet • and marriages that had taken place in the parish.
when a man had served his country faithfully twenty-one years, That this matter might be perfectly understood, he would read
he t.ught to be allowed a pension which would prevent him a letter which he had received on Saturday from the Rev. Mr.
from seeking the aid of a workhouse, from being iesufficient to Archer, incumbent of Newton Barry, county of Wexford. The
support him in his old age ; he ought to have such an allow- Noble Lord then read extracts from the communication of the
ance as would keep him in comparative adluence.—( Hear.) R.v. Gantletean, expressive of his surprise that the Right
Colonel SIBILIORP lamented that nothing now was , Hon. Geutlernau the Secretary for Ireland should have re-
right, and that a subversive system was going on. They turned the answer he did to the question put by him
had attacked the Church, they had attacked the (Lord George Bentinck). The clergymen of the
law, and they bad attacked physic— (Laughter ) all Church of Ireland were bound on ilie 25th day of
professions were undergoing a change—nothing was right— al arch in every year to furnish a correct copy of the parish
(Renewed laughter)—but he still reverenced the wisdom of registry of births, baptisms, marriages, and deaths, to the regis •
their ancestors. which he thought was totally departed from trar of the diocese, by whom they were inserted its the registry,
within the walls of that reformed—that pure House of Corn- of the Diocesan Court. He (LordSG. Bentinck) thought, there-
mons, wriich did nothing wrong.—(Laughter.) But were the fore, that it must be clear to the House that the Right Hon.
people mere happy or united now than in the days of their Gentleman was entirely misieformcd, and that no difficulty
ancestors ? Let them look I,r a reply to Ireland, to Scotland, mad stand in the way of the Government in furnish-
and then let them glance at England. A melancholy lesson ing those returns. He had also received a committal-
teid them that the people were neither happy nor united, cation from one of the med.cal offieers connected
Now they meddled with the army.--(Laughter.) Now, he with the dispansary in Galway, who stated that there
thought the past services of the army were sufficient to tell the could be no cif eufty in ascertaining the amount of mor-
peopie of this country that no charge was required in that cle- tality among the Roman Catholic postulation. He had had
oartment of the public service. It was the envy of surround- several other communications, among others, one from Mr.
ing nations. He had great respect for the late and present Hewson, anatomical lecturer in liallarney Hospital. stating
Secretary-at-War ; bu: it was sufficient fir him to say they that the mortality in that establishmeut was three in the month
were civilians, and that they cull not, therefore, have a very of November, six in December, nineteen in January, arid
intimate knowledge of the feelings of the army. But when he twenty -nine in February. The Noble Lord then proceeded,
said that the men ware unhappy he apprehsnded • but in a tone of voice aimo.t inaudible in the gallery, to tax
that he committed a lapsas legume. Ie (Colonel Sibthorp) the Government with having, by their ill-judged measures,
had been sixteen years in he Majesty's dragoons before rte precipitated the present distress in Ireland. ne blamed them,
came into that refined society— Roars of laughter) - and he tries, list, ad of alma% ands endeavouring to alleviate the desti-
met, whilst in that service, as good men, and seen of as high nation they had in part created, they had left the wants of the
honour, as he had mist with in that soelety,=( Laughter. ) country to be supplied by the energy of private speculators,
Certainly whilst in the army his time was not consumed in and from the resources of private cline'.
hearing long speeches, such as theses ften delivered in that 1 Mr. LABOUCIIERE trusted that Hon. Members would
House, and which Ise often wish, dbe had net sat to hear.— not think it necessary that he should follow the Noble Lord
(Langhter.) If he came in unlearned, ho went out, after into a subject which bad been so frequently discu-sett in that
hearing their speeches' ten times mare unlearned.—
House—he meant the policy of her Majesty's Gevernment
(Laughter.) The Right Hen. Gentlem:n stated that, the ma- --a
• • - - " -

with respect to the supplying. of food to Ireland. and the effee,
which that policy had on the comforts, and perhaps lives, of
the people of that country. He could only regret that the
Noble Lord should have felt it necessary to adopt the course
he had done on th it occasion, and that he should
again have provoked discussion by affirming that her Majesty's
Government had pursued an impolitic course, inasmuch as
they had not themselves provided a supply of food for the
Irish people. He ( Mr. Labouchere), on the contrary, felt
satisfied that every day's experience cotfitmed the wisdom and
necessity of the policy by which the Government was actuated
nototo interfere with private energy, or the ordinary career of
trade. Most enormous supplies of f rod were pouring into
Ireland, and ha confessed that in his own opinion, if Govern-
ment had interfered to fetter the course of private enterprise,
the result might have been very different. He had seen a
letter that day which stated that in the pert of Cork there
were one hundred vessels with full cargoes of provisions.—
( Hear, hear.) There were similar imports in the ports of
Galway, Limerick, and in tact in all the large ports of Ire-
land. The result had been that great quantities of provisions
were stored on the premises of the several merchants, and
private inverts had exceeded what might have been expected
from the u• most efforts of the Government. With regard to the
returns of mortality, if he had objected to the returns which
were moved fur by the Noble Lord, it was from no desire to
keep them from the House, in order to conceal what the Noble
Lord would call the impolitic measures of the Government.
He would at once concede that the mortality in the last year
greatly exceeded that of former years. It was not on that
account that he had refused these returns, but because he
believed that no correct retains could be rendered. Where
he thought that correct inforgration could be afforded he did
not refuse to the House to lay such before it. Tney had
ordered a return of the Lumber of coroner.' inquests, and also
returns from the constabulary force ; but when the Noble Lord
asked for the returns of mortality in the last year as compa.ed
with previous years, he ( Mr. Labouehere) did nut feel himself
juitified in granting them. The Noble Lord said that the
Protestant clergymen of Ireland kept. a registry of the births
and deaths within their own parishes, and that the: were com
pelled t r de so by the canon law ; he believed they were obliged
to do an, but he was mind* deceived if that law was enforced in
Ireland. His Learned Friend beside him had put the canon
law into his hand, and he found that the penalty for the evasion
of the Act was, that the parties infringing it could be proceeded
against actor dingly.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL said that the chief reason for
his rising was to express a hope that the Government would
place a check on the landlords using these depots. The des-i-
-tution in Ireland was daily growirg more arid more fearful,
and he conjured them to do s , as the markets were not likely
to fail, and there was every probability that they would have
ample opportunities of using their resources.
. Mr. SHAW thought that the representations of the Right
Hon. Gentleman had been much overcharged. The fact was,
that the Protestant clergy had inquired into the deaths only of
the people wider their own care. It was impossible therefore
to draw any comparative estimate of the state of destitution in
Ireland from these returns, nor ought they to be relied upon
for
r-hrd OtJPurtVlek
Lo tUSSELL conceived that the Noble Lord had
taken an entirely ruihtalten view of the matter, at,i, indeed, his
views were altogether beside the case. They hid come to the
opinion, that the best course they could pursue,was not to check
the importation of food into Ireland through private en-
terprise by any measures of the Government. With regard to
the proceedings of last year, he might observe, that a certain
amount of m-niey was voted for the purchase of Indian corn for
the supply of the destitute people of Ireland. They had thought
that it was a very proper article of food for that country, and
bad accordingly bought it up largely ; but they did not say, on
that account, that other per'ons were not also to introduce
Indian corn ; and on a reference to the public markets in
Anier;ca, they found that the object had been fully attained,
for it had led to a large importation of food, and the Govern-
ment bad done all they could to promote that importation. But
the Government never intended, and neverengaged, to feed the
people of Ireland, although he could not say that they had never
undertaken to secure a supply of food for that country. By a
letter received this very day, addressed to the Secretary to the
Treasure, by the special agent of the Government, it appeared
that at the moment he wrote, there were teenty thousand tons
of Indian corn in the neighbourhood of Cork waiting for sale,
and that the markets were overstocked, and that the corn was at
the present moment being sold in such small parcels as
fifteen pounds each, and the probability was that the stock now
on hand from the late importations would be sold at a consider-
able loss. In feet, the arrivals had been much g: eater than
he had supposed, and he believed that more than twenty-four
ships had come to port more than were required, and that
a much greater amount of Indian corn had arrived than was
required, and it was likely to be sold at a much lower price
than that at which the Government had undertaken to supply
the whole of the country with food.
Lord J. MANNERS wished to ask the Secretary for Ire-
land whether there was any objection to grant the returns for
which his Noble Friend had asked ? If that return was pro.
perly made, and it was in accordance with what the Right
Hon. Gentleman had stated, it would be a complete answer to
what had been stated by his Noble Friend.'
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that the returns made by the
Protestant clergy has! been returns of the deaths only, but
if the Noble Lord attached any importance to the returns as
heshowingH A)wouldni.r .Gvet
:nh,
Gentleman
et. comparative
eotphpeoSTUAßT
stilopposite
egedhowetnaeeertseheti svogeabudnii
objection
techtt
aihotent
hteogo
inopportune
observations destitution
aenrtvthem.
oeii in
.hlreland,pre-
sent debate, for if the returns bad been Lull enough for some
purposes, they were quite incomplete with regard to others,
and therefore unfit to be relied upon for drawing any conclu-
sions on which to found an opinion.
Mr. COLLETT said that as the distress of Ireland was
now before the House, he wished to make an inquiry with re-
spect to the expense that was said to have been incurred in
the distributiou of scup. It was stated that a hundred men
were employed at a pound each to superintend the distribution
of this soup, making an expense of IVO/. a-week. The ques.
tion then which he wished to put was, as to whether this state-
ment was true? Secondly, as to whether these men were now
engaged? And in the third place, as to whether the Rehr Hen.
Gentleman had reason to believe that, considering the great
expense incurred, the experiment was likely to prove suc-
cessful ?
Mr. LABOUCHERE said he should have been prepared to
have answered the question of the Hen. Gentleman had he
previously giver. notice of it, but this he could state, that at
first the experiment was made by private parties. Perhaps,
while he was on his legs, he might be allowed to say. in re-
ference to what had fallen from an Hon. Gentleman opposite,
that Government were fully alive to the difficulties which
might present themselves in a sudden transition from the
puteic works, and the fri-h Government had accordingly been
fully in-trusted upi'n that point.
Mr. DILLON BROWNE would never ask this country to
come forward to assist Ireland while the people of that coun-
try had ao opportunity of providing for themselves ; but he
really did think Government ought to take steps fur supplying
tenants with seed where the landlords w uld not, or could
nor, do so He fully admitted th.t Guyer= •nt was pursuing
a rope- course in allotting the present demands for food in
Ireland to be supplied by private enterprise,
I Iv to 0 - -astir e -- C.

Mr. D. Browne, and Mr. Cripps, in opposition to the amend-
ment,
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN said that those Hon. Mem-
bers did not appear to be perfectly consistent in their conduct
in opposing the amendment of his Hon. Friend the Member
for the University of Dublin, seeing the course which they had
adopted upon other clauses of the Bill, recommending authority
to be given to the board of guardians and not to the Commis-
sioners.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER supported
the clause as it originally stood.
Mr. SHAW thought that it would be not only safer, but
much better for the efficient working of the Bill, that the ap-
pointment of the relieving officer should be vested in the Com-
missioners.
Mr. GROGAN supported the amendment.
Mr. LABOUCHERE was in favour of the clause ; it had
been prepared with considerable care, and was the result of con-
siderable attention on the part of the Government.
Sir W. CLAY opposed the amendment.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL thought the better course would be to
consider first the clause relating to ex-officio guardians, as upon
the result of that clause would depend the whom value of the
other details of the Bill.
Mr. HAMILTON withdrew his amendment, and the
clause, as originally proposrd was agreed to.
On clause 5 beirg proposed,
Mr. HAMILTON suggested that in cases wh, re there was
no medical otiic-r fur an electoral division, while there was one
for the union that :hen the burden of the medical attendent
appointed shou:d fall only on the distract to whic:t he was
elected.
Mr. D. BROWNE suggested that there should be some
qualification test for tie election of a medical eater. It was
very necessary that such should be the case, there were so
mcns unqualified persons pree, ism.: in Ire and.
Sir G. G EY said that such should its the case; with
respect to the suggestion of the Member for the UMVeI si y of
Dublin, much should be left to the discretion of the
guardians.
Mr. MORGAN J. O'CONNELL said that it would be
the must valuable clause. if it totally abolished the sysitern of
dispensary practice in leeland altogether. The aepointment
was in the power of the subscribers, and they always elected
some one they favoured, even should he reside fifty miles out of
the district.
The clause was then agreed to.
On clause 6 being proposed.
G HAM IL lON moved the substitution of the follow.
ing —" That in every electoral division of each union there
shall be a relief committee; which relief committee shall
consist of the guardians of such union, resident or having rate-
able property within such electoral division, together with the
(two) highest ratepayers therein, nut being guardians of such
union ; and every such committee shall meet weekly, on some
day, other than that of the meeting of the board of guardian;
and every such relief committee shall annually elect a chair-
man; and every relieving officer who shall be appointed as
hereinbefore directed, shall at. such weekly meeting report to
such relief committee any case of sudden er urgent. necessity,
and shall hare power, under an order signed by the ehalt man,
or such person as shall be, pi o tempore, acting as chairman of
such relief committee, to give provisional rebef in such case
of sudden and urgent necessity, either by an order of admis-
sion to the workhouse or fever hospital ot tne union, pro.
vided there be room therein respectively, and by con-
veying any destitute poor person thereto if necessary, or
by affording such poor person immediate anti temporary
relief in food, lodging, or medical attendance, until the next
ordinary meeting of the board of guardians, at which meeting
he shall report the case, and the Batu e and cost of the relief
so afforded, in such form and m inner a, the Poor-law Com-
rnissioaer shall prescribe, and after such report shall give no
further relief otherwise than by direction of the board of
slum diams in the case so reported ; and the guardians of the
union shall furnish the chairman of such relief committee with
the necessary funds for affording relief in manner aforesaid,
arid for the relief of those destitute poor persons to whom relief
shall be granted by the board of guardians, at such times and
in such manner as 'he Poor-law Commissioners shall determine
and direct. And be it enacted, that in any case of sudden and
urgent necessoy at any period between the meetings of such
relief committee, and of the board of guardians, it shall be
lawful for such relieving officers to give such provisional relies
as aforesaid, under the written order of the chairman, or of
any two members of the said relief committee, until the next
ordinary meeting of the board trf guardians or of the relief
committee, whichever shall first happen ; at which he shall
report the relief so afforded in the manner, and subject to the
conditions hereinbefore required tidth respect to relief admi-
nistered under the orders of the said relief committee.
M . S HAR al AN CR IWFORD thought it was indispen-
sable that a poor person should have a surgeon to look to who
would afford them temporary relief, in eases of pressing emer-
gency, until their case could come, in the ordinary course,
under the attention of the board of guardians. lie hoped the
Go'.'errah"ot would adhere to the clause as it stood.
Sir GEORGE GREY thought that the amendment would
interfere with the poor detaitong that immediate relief for
giving which the clause was specially famed. It was indis-
tten,able that the power which the clause proposed to give
should be in the hands of medical officers.
Some discussion ensued.
J. O'CONNELL wished to have a provision introduced
into the Bill to hive the clergy of every denornination upon the
boards of guardians. They were better at:gnawed with the
epople themselves, and the objects must worthy of receiving
relief.
Sir WALTER JADES thought that some provision should
he made giving to the relieverg officers a power anatagous to
the powers possessed by some charities in England; namely,
that of givin immediate relic in eases of urgent distress.
Mr. SHAW thought that the relieving offieer wituiti, under
such circumstances, be pieced in a diffieul posstien, and it
would nut be easy to foresee the extent to which such a prin-
ciple as the one proposed might be carried.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that in the present position of Ireland there might
arise many cases of distress of an urgent nature, which
it would be the duty ot the relieving officer to attend to
without applying for authority to two or three different per-
sons, The person seeking relief might under such circum-
stances die be ore assistance could be afforded. lie thought
therefore that such a poser was absoluzely indispensable.
Mr. P. SCROPE thought that i. was the duty of the Go-
vernment to introduce into the clause some words which should
render it compulsory upon the relieving officer to administer
relief,

RAILWAY COMMITTEES,

(YESTERDAY.)

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
GROUP I.

The Select Committee appointed to consider the merits of
the Bills comprised in this group re-assembled at the usual
hour this morning, in Room SO; Lord Granville Somerset in
the chair.

After a few words from Sir GEORGE GREY, the clause
was agreed to,
On clause seve❑ being proposed.
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN wished to know if this clause em-
powered the guardians to give out-door assistance to the family
of a man unable to VI 01 k from accident.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the first
clause did that.

Mr. VESEir moving that the following words be added at
the end of the clause—" Provided always that no wife or child
shall be admitted into the workhouse without the husband or
parent for more than one week, unless with the sanction of the
Poor-law Commissioners.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
if they admitted these provisos, they, by implication, Lgalised
what was illegal now.
After a few words from Mr. Vesey, Mr. Shaw, Mr. Hamil-
ton, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
Mr. VESEY inquired whether the guardians had the power
to stop this practice?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not
I thesa y thatwaynt
r; e allpresheeeed, they could
Usay was, that if the guardians acted in
acted
The amendment was then neeatived without a division.
The clause was then passed without a division, as was also
clause 8.
On the motion that clause 9 be agreed to,
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL sale that his Hon. Friend the
Member for Waterford had an amendment to propose, and he
wished to know whether he intended to press it ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that as several Members had mo-
tions to make, he thought it would be better to postpone the
consideration of the remaining clauses till to-morrow.
The House then resumed.
CUSTODY OF OFFENDERS BILL.
On the motion that the House should go into Committee on
the Custody of Offenders Bill,
Mr. E. DENISON wished to know what course the Go.
vernment intended to pursue with respect to this 13111, as it
appeared to him that it would open the whole question of
transportation ?
Lord J. RUSSELL thought that it would be better to take
the consideration on the debate on the clauses of the Bill.
The question of al,ering the present system of transportation, it
would seem, was to be discussed upon the report of one of these
Bills, and unless he heard from Government that it was
to be brought forward in another form, he should come down
on Thursday prepared to go fully into the matter.
Sir GEORGE GREY said it was highly important that
these Bills should be disposed of as soon as possible, but still he
should be quite relit), to go into the question of transportation
on Thursday, when it was proposed to bring up the report on
the 8.11.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM was understood to say that the
Crown prepos, d to alter the present mode of traesportation
without the authority of an Act of Parliament. He thought,
therreore, that. the question ought to be brought forward in a
specific form, and'he should be glad to know if Government
would bring the matter forward for find &ben-silo after Easter?
Sir G. GREY said he should be extremely happy to enter
upon such discussion, but it could only be done by some Hon
%aerober giving a notice of motion upon the subject.
The House then went into Co,,,mittee on the Bill.
PRISONS BILL.
This Bill also went through Committee, and the report or-
dered to be received this day
GENERAL REGISTER• HOUSE (EDINBURGH)
BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed.
The other ciders 01 the day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at a Quarter-past One o'clock.

THE STORY OF LILLY D A WsON. BY MRS.
CROWE, AUTHOR OF "SII.AN HOPLEY."—We have read
this work with deep interest ; an interest derived from the

LAW .INTELLIGENCE.
HOUSL OF LOADS, ilfurch 22.
The House sat to-day to hear appeals. The Peers p e-ent
were, the Lord Chancellor, Lord Brougham, and Lord-Camp-
bell.

THORNETCROFT V. CROCKITT AND OTHERS.
The arguments in this part-heard care were resumed and
concluded to- day. The case came before their Lordships
upon an appeal against a decree of the Vice-Chancellor cf
England, in which the question involved related entirely to
the accounts taken between mortgagers I.nd mortgagees.
The details were wholly uninteresting except to the parties.
Their Loar)smirs, at the conclusion of the arguments
postponed their judgment.

VICE CrIA NCERY COURT, March 22.
(Berne the VICE-CHANCELLOR Of ENGLAND.)
JOY C.
The arrumenrs in this pArt-n. ar.l ca .se were ,csunte.,
coneltiriecrto-(by. anti
Hi Hosoux yiri•gmen:.