The Sun.
London, England, 1841-03-31 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON. WEDNII_NDAY, MARCH 311 1841

corpu,s, and was released by the Judge. The House of
dregged the Judge who had released him from
the Bench of Juatice, and both the Judge who had issued

an .1 the Sheriff who had executed the writ of hate 1e

.
e( rots, Were nripir,oned by the House of Assembly, under
ti,e pretence c a breech of privilege; and, in ur,ler to
r, leave than, the Gcl,:rnor of the colony was obliged to
p;.crigue the Rtri:arn:.nt. They had beard a great drat
of breach cf privilege Litt Session, but he thought that
(-van the Hor. and Leinnecl Member for Nowak

Fej (the Solicitor-Gcrmra) would admit that .ua-s carry-
ing the doctrine of breach (f privilege to an unjustifiAle
(Iter.t. An accusation had also bean made igainst the
Ciief Justice of the Hand, Mr. Bolton. The raising of

t aL person, nbo was in a lith legal situation, to a politi-
cal cflicc in theLegi-lativPCouncil, toss certainly an

prudent step. His political views wete obnoxious to a
certain party, raid although he was honourably acquitted of
ail the charges that were made against him, yet
it, was- thorgut better that he should be eeprived
of his employment. Another grave charge made against
the House of Aaertib'y was that of misapplication and
squandering of the public money. It urfoltunately hap-
ede I is Newt' wieland that every official person, alagis-
ti ales, and e,.;n:tahle4, were sent to the House of
their s:ilar cs, and it was nil( god that the House of
Assinbly in dis.pensing-tLeir favours had regard to the
political conduct e.f :he parties—that they rewarded their
fr'eads, and depressed their fees. He held, in his hand a
petition sent.over by the Chamber of Cernmei.ec---a body
lepreseetiog the rezpectablo mercantile elases, and ear-
sisting cf pandas of all political c'eaemitiatioris, and they
earnestly prat e•'. far relief. Ha found that the petition,
cont,iaed allega.ions of the maat.er in which the Li gislz-
tivc Council had tamperei with the colonial revenue.
N,w, if these ea:-‘es of ei33,tisfa2tion bad arisen is London
—if there were any truth in these allogations—if it were
true that the ends of justice had la( en frustrated by the
conduct of the Assembly, and th.ir duties, as legislators,
prostituted for party purposes, it could not be matter
of surpri.e that such strong teatonstrances and peti-
tions should be sent to the Legislature at home.
—(Hear ) These petitions, in consequence of some
accident, ee•e not the subk ec of discussion in theit House ;
but in the otlicr House, in the Ses:i3n of 1839, they had
occasioned some discussion, and the Noble Ali-rquis then
at the Lead of the Colonial Depa,tment had promised

that a Commissioner should be scia out t the colony, di-
.

recting him to make special inqu'ry into the truth of the
al:egationF. Before the close of the Session cf 1839 the
Noble Marquis stated that the answer cf the Governer to
the riespatchcs of the Government tt home had been re-
ceived, and it stated that the al'ega.ions in the petition
e.e! e very much exaggerate'. It had not been thought
advisable to tress f r the repot t of the Governer ; but he
must say that when it was alleged tha, the statements in
the petition Mere exsiggera!e:J, and when there was no
means of ascr• aining whether the opinion a the Governor
was right or w rut g the subject was one which ought t o form
the subject of Partiatrentary inve,fgation. He regretted
that no lion. Member had thought it necessary to press for
such an investigation t.t ihe time the report of the G -
vernor was re;.,,eivei. He was sorry to say that site then
colony had been in a very disturbed state. Ia the spii-ig
of 1840 the Governor hal thought it right, and I.? (Mr.
Pakington) did not know how tar he was just;fied in so
doing, to raise from the office of treasury to a scat in the
Council a man respectable in his station of life must un-
doubtedly, but conspicuous fur his strong political feelings.
In consequence of the vacancy occasioned thereby, an elec-
tion took place for the town of St. John in the course of
last summer, and that occasioned another violent out-

break of political excitement. The election was only
carried on by the b tyonets of the soldiers, so
great was the rioting and outrage that took place.
In Decemter last there was ancth'r election, when the
most serious riots and disturbances took }dace. A Ma-
Ostratc in the execution of his duty was violently tar-
sailed, and a greet number of other persons either lost
their lives cr were seriously injured ; several houses were
also pulled doter. He was sorry to add, that from, the
petition, which was that evening presented from the
Chamber cf Commerce of Nevtfeundland, it appeared that
the Legislative Assembly of that colony was not free from
suspicion of beieg cognizant of that violent misconduct on
the part of certain i idividuels. Bills of indictment were
pending against those individuals, and, notwithstandirg that
some of the members of the Legildve Assembly came
forward as sureties for their appearance, and still retaised
them in the service of the Assembly. Another charge
was made against the Assembly for interfering i i the
case of a person indicted for an outrage committed on a
young person whose ears had been cut off. The Magis-
trates caused an inquiry to be made into the matter, and
suspicion fell en the door-keeper of the House of Assem-
bly ; but that Assembly summoned the Magistrates before
them, and caused an end to be put to the proceedings. He
would call the attention of the House to the strongest ar-
guireet of all that could be advanced in favour of the
views he was advocating—the speech of the Governor of
the Colony on opening the present Session of the Legis-
lative Assembly. In that speech the Got ernor directed
the notice of the Assembly to the scandalous mariner in
which elections were carried on, and to the ferocious con-
duct of the Ferule on those occasions, and pointed out the
neer ssity which in consequence existed fur the este-
bisartrent of a law which would tend to secure the
puti;e peace, and the undisturbed exercise of the
elf e ice franchise. The Governor also stated that he was
an x •ous to press upon the attention of the Assembly the
expeeiency of rendering the system adopted at elections
es ear as possible to that of the mother country. Also
that from the circumstance of the franchise being obliged
to be exerc,sed undt r the protection of bey onets, and
from the violence generally exhibit d on such occasions,
Ire ;.eared that the inference woelel be justly drawn that
the island was unfit to possess a Legislative institution,
and that that ancient appanage of the British Crown
was not duly prepared for watchir g over its own affairs by
rneens of a general Assembly. It appeared that the
House of Assembly was not satisfied with the conduct of
the Governor, in sending an armed military force to
Carbonmere, for they demanded documents from him in
justification of his conduct. The answer of the Governor
to the demand was the most singular document that had
ever been placed upon record—in it he refused any docu-
meats in justification of his conduct, and he declared
that if there were any renewal of the disgraceful riots at
elections, he would not undertake again the responsibility
of isscieg writs for the electien of members for a new
Assembly, but would refer the whole matter to the Home
Government, and set according to such orders as he
might receive. It appeared to him, that if the Governor
found it necessary to use such language, he was per-
fectly justified in the course which he had pursued. The
statentents he had laid before the House were made by
respectable parties, and the language used by the Governor
gave it a character of truth. He might be asked whether
in suggesting the inquiry, he was prepared to suggest any
remedy for the evils complained of, whether he would advo-
cate the repeal or ebrogst on of the Constitution
of Newfounclentl. He would enter the Cemrrittee he
sought free from any prejudice or pledge ; distinctly with-
holding any Gpir.ion on the subjet in order that he might
be free to form that opinion which the evidence might lead
Idol to adopt. He was fully prepared ts admit that it was
eery different thing to withhold thwra .t of a represen-
tetive Government, and to take away-Trom the colony the
advantages of a free Consti otiose Nothing could justify
the latter step but the strongest necessity, nor unless they
found it impossible to create materials for a better Assem-
ble, and fur tire formation of a better constituency, could
they attempt such a thing ; but were that found inyeedble,
then he hoped the Government would be prepared t) take
sysn that course ; however, it could only be when no other
remedy cculd adopted. He w, uld not further intrude
upon the House. He had. as far as possible, avoided ma-
king personal charges. lie bed confined himself to a
statement cf the appointment of a Commi t. e, and upon
which he conceived it would appear to the House of Com-
mons and the country that the inquiry which he sought
could not longer, either with prudence or with justice, be
withheld. On these grounds he begged to move the ap-
pointment of a Select Committee.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said be had already stated
that it was not his intention to oppose the. motion of the
Honourable l‘iember for a Committee to inquire
into the state cf the colony of Newfoundland.
'Thinking, however, that the evils which had arisen
would not be allowed to remain if there was any power
of nemovi rg Cleat in the existing Constitution, Ile had
recommended the Governor to do everything in his
peer to ensure the hi tier working of that Censtitution,
and he had stated to him at the same time, that if he
&died in this attempt, he (Lord J. Russell) would then
cori,idrr it his einty to aaly to Parliament far a remedy.
An ti ere were many circumstances connected with the co-
lony which deserved investigation, he should not have felt
himself justified in opposing a motion for inquiry ; but he
wished it clearly to be understood, that although he did
not oppose the motion, arid was not prepared to stare what
measures he should think it his duty to pre:pose, those mea-
sures would be founded upon the course which the Legir-
lature of Newfoundland had pursued, and upon the view
which her Majesty's Government took of that course,
whatever rri,;lit be the opitri in of the lion. Gentleman or
the Commitice upon that subject. As it was impossible
that Members should be fully informed on all the tran-
sactions ia each of the colonies connected with this country,
it was very desirable that there should be a certain number
of the Nismbers of that House conversant with
the facts upon which the House were called upon
to legislate. Ile could not egree to the appointment
of this Committee, without stating that he di -
rented from several of the general opinions which
had been expteeeed by the Right H,n. Gcneeman.
The Hon. Gentl man corsidered that the grantiug a con-
stitution to a population of 80,000 pe,sons in New-
foundland was premature. Now he (Lord J. Russell)
was of a different opinion. Without eta i g his seati-
meats as te the franchise which had been given, as to the
mode of electing Members, or the qualification required of
them, he shoed i say that he still felt th it British sub-
jects in the situation of the inhabitants of Newfoundland
were more likely to flourish—more likely to carry on their
concerns for their own benefit and the advantage of the
emli e a, 1 urge by having a popular Constitution than by
b, hg !eft v, it bout one..—(Hear, hear.) He thought that
in general it would be advisable to grant as much as pos-
siVe free institutions to the subjects of the British Crown.
He thought that they should not suspend these institu-
tions unless r n some particular grounds, such as in the
opinion of the Govermaent existed in the case of Ja-
m.itet, although they had not obtained the mincurrence
of the haute on that ore:Ilion, and he would nct then un-
dertake to eay elisther they were right or wrong in the
matter. It war their babel at- the time that free insti
tedious might not be fitted for a population just ernan-
pated from slivery, and that it would be advisable to ap-
point a geriod of transition. There were various other
circumsturc F, such as the hostility between different
races, under which it would be impossible to
reckon on harmony in working a free Constitu-
tion. But still 1 e sheuld repeat that, in the case of a
colony si uated like Newfoundland, it was most desirable
to est iblish free institutions as soon as possible. The Go-
vernor ef Newfoundland had made some very strong state-
rrosete in regard to tire working of the Constitution there,
whieh the 'floe. Gemleenal opposite had referred to.
'Tigre were nitinv cenfideariel deepatehes on the subject,
which he (Lord J. Russell) would not be able to lay be.
fore the lime.; but he would read the remarks made by

the Governor of the colony a lear and a half ego, vvlen
giving his opinion on the genera workirg of the Consti-
tutioa. The Noble L, rd then read an extuet, wlteli was
to the following effect ;--" Alihough our leOlative insti.
tutions have not been worked under favourable cinutn-

stance s, yet 1 cannot agr+eTritho opinion that they 00g..t
,t once to have been abolished in the midst of the con'es-
tentions, atimmitieF, and jealousies that would arise. The
ch,lony of Newfoundland has advanced in many important
pints since the year 1832, when the Colonial Assembly
was first establisbel. This is manifest is the light-houses,
roads, bridges, schools, &c., now in progress." So much
fir the benefits derived from the system. Now the cases
to which the Governor referred, the erection of bridges,
ezr., were, in fact, the questions the most interesting and
the most important to a colony situated like Newfound.
land. They might have facts which would seem very
strange a:cording to their notions of representatve go-
vernment—they night have votes of the Assembly, or pro-
ceeding of its members, which, accustomed as they were
to the forms of a constiution estabished fcr centuries,

lippcar very shcclumg, and such as to induce them
to think it Letter to have no 4frce constitutions at all.
BLt he must utterly
%co rather prefer these t v3s than endeavour to
deny that infcrenco.—( Heir, Lear.)
EL ulda

es!ablish again anyihing like arbitrary government.. lie
believed that although ti.ey might have a much simpler
terns of gcv..remcr.t, tif they found the people scting
c..ergy in their own behalf—if they found them im-
provi:lg their public Works, and advancing gradually ii
pro,pertiy, it vv::g better to endeavour to amend that Con-
s i utiou if they could, but by no means to abolish a re-
pr,sentative constitction as inimical to these ends— (Hear,
ar)—and he should much doubt the attachment of a
1-IJuse of Commons to a representative constitution,
which, wlt'iout very wrong grounds, should assent to any
such proposition.—(Ch: era, and laughter.) He knew
not whether it was intended t 4 sneer at the proceedings
piopos,d b. the Government some tears ago, with regard
to ti e Constit.ution of Jamaica—( Latighte. )--but that was
a case which seemed to Lim to be an exception to all
rules of this kind.—( Laughter.) The Assembly did not
represent the people; it had never pretended to
leiresent the i e.)ple, but it represented a small
mmor;ty called tie people, who were free, and not a
vast majority who were slams; and the Parliament of this
ecuntry faring declared that these slaves should he free,
there was gi eat danger of its being impossible to combine
these two elements of a free constitution, without some
susernsion of the whole constitution, and every thing that
took plPcc tended to increase the doubt. But even with
respect to this subject, he was by no means prepared to say
that they (the Government) were entirely right in their
proposal, because he certainly must admit that while he
thought i: recessary to propose some measure upon the
subject, 3et he had since seen, ia-the conduct of the Re-
preaentt.ve Assembly of Jamaica, a great desire to com-
bine the alvahtages of reprerentative government, with the
pi ivileges of thet class to which they were supposed to be
averse ; and he was, therefore, as far from being dis-

plied to insist that the Government were right, a; that
their adverea.i,s were wrong—( Hear, hear)—but, on the
c ;ntrary, that example induced him to be more reluctant
ie taking any steps towards adopting a similar measure.—
( Ilea.) He knew not that he need enter into the parli-
c tsars to which the lion. Gentleman had adverted. Thee
had been no doubt great disorders in Newfoundland in one
part of the year in particular, and one observation he had
made on the conduct of the Government of Newfoundland
was, that they had hardly been sufficiently prompt in re-
p; easing these disorders, because it was quite obvious that
nothing but military force could repress the disorders
which existe t, its defiance of all law whatever.—( Hear.)
lie should not object to the inquiry proposed by the
Hon. Gentleman, but he trusted that, now the Committee
was greeted, he would postpone the nomination of it till
I hursday next, as it was of great importance that House
should well consider who should be the persons to be ap-
['Anted on that Corronicee.—( Cheers.) They ought, a'
tar as p ssib!e, to appoint a diseassionate Committee—
( Cbeers)—beeause the local animosities in Newfoundland
were vet), great, and those animosities would necessarily
be iecreased if it were supposed that the House had ap-
poii.ted a Committee predetermined e:tber to support the
A;serstbly ern the one hand, cr to condemn it on the
otEe-. The Hon. Gentleman was likewise well aware
t at there were religious atiarosities coneected with the
sulA, and it was therefore the more important that obey
should be careful in the selection of the members of that
Committee. —( Cheers.)
Mr. HUME hoped the inquiry would be conduced
ei II the knowledge of the majority of the inhabitants of
the, island; The party for whom the Hon. Gentleman
appeared were, as far as he understood, the minority; and
he hoped ample time would be allowed for the information
cf the majority. Last year his, Hoe.. Friend the Member
for Dublin ar:d himself had presented a petition from the
majority of the island, complaining of grievances, and
preying for inquiry. He was sure that those peitioners
would not be sorry that this inquiry had been granted—
but on tittle behalf he craved full and ample time, and
doubted if it would be possible to give them proper notice
during the present Session. He did not know who, 10-
longing to the island, was at present in this country who
could give information on the subject. He mentioned
tUis, ciue the Hon. Gentleman had read a resolution
rditing to the Chi ‘f Justice, and the Hon. Gentleman
had pa d the CliA Justice a high compliment, as if his
conduct had not been censured by the Government. The
Hon. Gentleman ought to have stated, that after a full
and fair inquiry before the Committee of the Privy Counr
cif in this country, although lie was acquitted technically,
yte the acquittal wig accompanied by a recommendation
that ho should not be allowed again to go back toNewfound-
land, and that showed that they were not alt ther satin
with the Judge's conduct. Ile should have boon
more satisfied if. these inquiries could ha pos.poned to
text Seesion, in order to give the majority an opportunity
of being made acquainted with their proeee3ings,
Mr. M J. O'CONNELL thought it was most unjust
to the colony to have these stetements made without Itly
anseer being given on the other side. One point the
Hon. Member had omitted to altr, namely, the exelu ive
preierence that had been given to persons professing a re-
ligion different from that established in the colony, It ap-
a waled that out of 19,0001, paid annually for the salaries
of public offnes, 18,000/. was so distributed, and that was
one of the great causes of the di.,content in the colony,
He thought it extremely advisable that the liousts of As-
sembly should have an opportunity afforded them of mak.
ing their statemem, and he suggested, therefore, that the
lion. Member do pospone his Committee till after Easter.
Mr. PAK INGTON said it was his negation to hand in
the names
of the
eftNo the
ebe Committee that eveLitig, and to move
their appointment en Thursday in conformity with the tug-
gTee motion was agreed to,
POOR-LAWS.
_

On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL, the House
thee went into Commit'ee on the Poor-law Amendment
1. Mr. BERNAL in the Chair.
On clause 10 being read,
Mr. COL CI UllO U N, pursuant to notice, rose to move
that at the end of the clause thete be added, " Provided
always, that in the said combined parish or union schools
fer tie infant poor, a chael sin of the Church of England
shall be appointed, who shall be empowered to regulate
;el superintend the instruction and training of the chil-
dren," excepting where a dlfferenee if creed existed, and
where the parent or parents of the child objected to in-
struction being given by the clergyman of the Established
Church, and in such ease it shall and may be lawful is
such combined school, for any licensed minister cf the
religious persuasion cS the child, at times specified by the
Board of Management, to attend and afford religious in-
struction to such child or children, provided always that
such appointment receive the sanction of the Bishop of
the Diocese.
Dr. LUSEIINGTON said that whatever objections
:night be made on the part of certain persons to the ap-
poietment of a chaplain fur these schools, he (Dr. Lush-
iegton) was satisfied of the necessity for such appointment.
lie was no advocate fur imposing upon the Dissenters any
additional contributions for the maintenance of a Chu ch
from which they conscentimsly differed in re'igieus
opition ; but he believed most confidently, though he
had had no communicaion with any of the Dissestieg
bodies upon the snbject, that so attached were tl ey in heart,
in feeling, and in principle to the union of r.ligious in-
siructbm with secular education, that ra' her than ace two
or three hundred children belonging to the United Church
of England and ',Aland left to secular instruction only,
or to a chance religious instruction, they would sacrifice
their fe 'hugs and their convictions as Dissenters front the
Established Church.—( Hear, hear.) He (Dr. L.) en.
tinily assented, therefore, to the proposition for the ap-
pointment of•a chaplain. But ha hoped, at the same
rime, that the duties of the chaplain would be strictly
confined to the inst:uction of those who properly belonged
to him, namely, to those children who had been brought
up in the faith and the doctrines of the'Church of Eng-
land ; and thrt his instructions would neither directly ner
indirectly be extended to those who honestly dissented
from the Church.—(Hear, bear.) He believed that the
Dissenters would receive this proposition not merely with-
out reluctance, but with great satisfaction, if it were ap-
pli,d be such a spiiit ; and he hoped that if they did so te-
ctiye it, when their feelings upon other subjects came
to be discussed in that House, they would find that such
conduct had been duly weighed and justly appreciated.—
Hon. Member fur Kilmarnock, it
( Hsas, Lear.) Regarding the subject in this point of view,
ttohcgo infinitely further than it ought to
confessed that when he first consideted the original amend-
ydifficulties and exciting many religious
least, though tthhoautglhvhich
;flag
raising
aa
esr
idor proposed some dahni
myb
prejudices by the sweeping and comprehensive terms in
which it was worded. The clause then before the House
not perhaps in sub-
was cot iginally
d and contained a great variety of additional mat-
ter,propose ,
r d himself unable which Le confessed entirely to compre-
hend. It first proposed the appointment of a chaplain, and
secondly, that the
swtaasn,cei:t ttl:talwlyorddiinffgereaott
appointment should be sanctioned by the
diocesan. To both these propositions he assented. How-
ever liberal might be his opinions with respect to those
who dissented from the Church of England, he had ever
strenuously maintained the superintending power of the
diocesan in all matters connected with the Church of Eng-
land. lie thought that no clergyman should be appointed
to so important a trust without the sanction of the Bishop.
derstood the matter, the Hon. Gentleman
If he rightly un s . s
had taken certain provisions if the old Poor-law as the
basis for protecting from all violation the religious scruples
(f Catholics and others who dis:ented from the Church.
tie was not altog eller satisfied with the mode in which the
Hon. Gentleman bad in that respect framed this clause,
and his objection to it was one upon which, in his opinion,
the fa•e of the clause would Ultimately depend. What was
the object to be effected? They all agreed that those who
belonged to the Veited Church of England and Ireland
should be placed under the religious instruction of the
chaplain ; but the difficulties were twofold—fisst, to ascer-
tain who belonged to that Church, and secondly to devise
a protection for those who differed from it. With respect
to the first of these difficulties, he doubted whether the
Hon. Gentleman had expressed himself in terms suffici-
ently clear. He admitted that the great majority of children
in these unions would be members of the Church of Eng-
land ; and that tl-:ey had a right to assume, when no,hirg
appeared to the Contrary, that the children belonged to tte
Church, all he was not satisfied with this part of the
chase. He bad appiebended, as was the Cale with the

omen zr, en t originally proposed, that the Hon. Member
sv:u'd, instead of intruducing the subject ir:to this
have r;:surveci it for further consideration in

a subsequent stage if the Bill, and after mature reileciion
ani consideration. In such. a matter they stmuld proceed
with the greateti.t caution. The subject would always be
inv:ltted in c:risiderable difficulty. But, notwitlw.auding
the difficulty wl,i,2h must be fel: in laying down an

and the unurtainties which must

exist from the very nature of the subject, they should
ende svour to adept that principle, and to lay
down that rule, which for the most part would be con-
sistent with truth and justice. Now, assuming the general
propos tion thst the children should be taken as belong-
ing to the Church, he thought the exception proposed
was not broad enough to meet the difficulty. It took
the case of a parent, and it said that the surviving parent
—of course wl ile both alive—the father should have a
right to state is what religion he wished his chili to be
instructed. It even went further, and said godfatler and
godmother. Now, he contended that this exception was
totally inadequate. lie would suppose the case of
three or four orphan chiPrsn, «hot parents bad
been of the Catholic faith, and who so far as initia-
te ry tights could discover their intension, must be
ielsrrect to h..ve intendsd to thing them up in their
own fehle To instruct those children because they
hapeeeed to be orphans totally destitute of parental care
and authority, in any other faith than that is which their
parents lived and iled, would be in his opinion a siolation
of the first principles of religious freedom. Therefore,
lie canteeded that the exception was not sufficient, and
that they- 'oust establish some other principle than that
contained in the clause. The relations of the chid, whe-
ther Bapti.t, Independent, or Roman Catholic, should be
allowed to come forward and state in what faith the child
had Leen instructed. Upon these grounds, he objected
to that pelt of the clause. He hoped ,hat the subject
would be postponed for the present, until a clause had been
framed, which upon just and reasonable principles should
provide, as far as human wisdom and ingenuity could pro-
vide, for all these exigencies. Taking the old Poor-law as
his gut le, the Hon. Gentleman had next provided for
the access cf religious instructors to children who had
not bsen brought up in the Church of England. To that
proposition he entirely acceied, concecing all circum-
stances would permit to those who dissented from the
Established Church. If they called upon the Dissenter
to contribute to the support of a chaplain of the Church
of England, the Dissenter had at least a right to demand
the fullest and fairest opportunity of educating paupi r
children, whose parents were Dissenters, in the principles
of their own faith. Entertaining thts view, he had en-
deavoured to frame a clause which was in ac-
corlance with it, though it did not materially differ
from Ciat of the Honourable Gentleman. He would
now take the liberty of reading it to the House.
lie had framed a clause providing that a chaplain should
be appointed, for the purpose of furnishing religious in-
struction, according to the doctrines of the Established
Church, to all children belonging to that Church, pro-
vided that such chaplain should in no wise interfere with
the religious instruction of any child belonging to any
other religious persuasion ; and that it should be lawful fur
any licensed minister of any religious persuasion, at any
reasonable time in the day, to instruct such children
is the principles of his religion.—(Elear.) They were
now about to legislate for the poor of this country, and
and he would not confer upon them even the boon of a
good education by the violation of still more sacred prieci-
ples.—( Hear, hear.) Unless prejudices were raised
against the system, he had no doubt of its ultimate suc-
cess. He would go the whole length of the Hon. Baro-
net, and say, that in the case of the mother of a natural
child, he never would consent to take her child from her—
( Hear, hear)—thinking' that no object, however bright or
holy, ought to induce them to violate the natural affection
of a mother for her child. He had now stated his views
on this subject, and he asked both sides of the House,
seekirg. as they all did, the benefit and adeamage of the
poor— (Hear, hesr)— to set at defiance the foul outcry
agaiast the attempt to confer upon them this ir-
estimable berefis. He trusted there was not to be f lend
in the walls of that House ore man so übject a slave to
ava-ice, so totally destitute rf all human feelings, as to
vote for this measure with the simple view of diminishing
the poor-rate without retard to the blessings that it
con'erred upon the people. lie should have rej sicsd if
they could have so framed the clause as to combine
in uaiversal harmony and contentment the Churchman,
the Catholic, and the Dissenter ; and so as fa assure the
poor, and also all people of this country who were truly
religious, that they had nothieg mote at heart than the
sound religious education of the people.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord TEIGNMOUTH said he had listened to the
speech of the Hon and Learned Gentleman with grey-i
pleasure, but there acre some pa:ts of it from which he was
compelled to dissent. He thought that in this country,
where these was a Church by law established, all
whose religion was not known, or who were
indifferent on the subject, might be assumed to belong to
it, and brought up accordingly in its doctrines. He
thought the Hon, and Learned Gentleman had overrated
the daculties of this questi in. In the parish in which he
resided, and which contained 153,000 inhabitants, the
whole education of the poor was under the superintend-
ence of a chaplain of the Church of England; and though
no child could be taught the Church Catechism if the pa-
resits objects] to it, the chaplain informed been Lord
Teignmouth) that no objection ',Lod 'ppm snide curing the
whole time he held the Office of chaplain. The mistress
of the girls' school, who had filled that situation for 16
ve;ra, and the had an average of lias children under her
eberge, had Liio told him that she never knew an instance
of any child or pareet objecting to instruction in the :'ranee
chisin of the Church cf Eaglarld,
, jn al,swer tc, 6,, oisservattUn Iroise Lord S AND ON,
Dc. I, USHINGTQN said that his only wi h was to
provide for the education cf children who we -e not mem-
t hers of the EstaVished Church.
jr, W, G LADSTONE wished to know how the
Right lion. Gentleman would proceed, in the case if a
child received into the workhouse who had no Lear rela.

tives alive, but the belief of where parents was known to
have been different from that of the Established Church.
Dr. LUSHINGTON said that he should assume, in
the first instance, that the children goirg to school in a
workhouse belonged to the Church of England, but he
thought that not only the wishes of a chil a's parents or
natural guardians should be consulted with regard to its
education, but that they should go farti er, a:though he
was not prepared at the moment to say to what exteet, and
le eve a just and fair opening for the interference of those who
were int rested in the welfare of the child. But if no-
body e, hatevee interfo•ed, it might be taken for granted
tha_ the child belonged to the Established Church.
Mr. COLQU li 0 UN had noobjection to substitute the
words " natural guardians" for the words " godfathers and
godmothers," but he could not eonsent to the alteration
proposed by the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman.
Dr. LUSHINGTON explaieed.
Lord S AN D 0 N thought the immediate relatives of an
orphan child might have a right of objection, but he was
not disposed to extend the right further,
Mr. HAWES said many Dissenters objected distinctly
to Le appointment of a paid chaplain. If these chaplains
acre to be paid out of the poor-rate, they were establishing
a totally different mode of paying the cler4y. He strongly
opposed it, because this additional draue,ht of money from
the people for the clergy came just at the time whoa a
million and a half had been added to the revenues of the
clergy by the Tithe Commutation Act. Why should not
the workhouse be considered as part of the parish? The
Dissenting and Catholic mi sisters discharged the duties
gratuitously, and why should not the Church of England
clergy ? If they were to be paid, they should be paid out
of some other fund than the poor-rive. Did they mean
tle,A the whole education, secular and religious, of the
children, was to he placed entirely in the heeds of the
c'ergy ? Were they competent to give secular instruc-
ti ,n ?—(Ch err.) Rather than have such a proviso, he
wculd reject the clause altogether. the pa)ieg the
chaplain out of the poor-rate would be bringing all
the feelings against the Church-rate to bear against
the poor-rate. There were sources out of which a
chaplain might be paid, and it was not the fault of that
House that those sources had not long since be ea made
avai ab'e. lie protested against the proviso of the Hon.
Gentleman, and he should certainly divide the Committee
on the question.
Lord J. RUSSELL was free to confess that there was
great force in the argument of the Hon. Gentleman, that,
unless a chaplain were appointed, these schools, consisting
of 330 or 400 children, would be left without regular re-
ligious instruction, and that they were bound to provide
regular religious instructors for them. So strong had that
difficulty been felt the', when the school at Norwood was
established, the Commissioners who had spoken to him on
the subject, had considered it advisable to appoint a chap-
lain at Norwood. He did not object to the principle of the
Hon. Gentleman's clause so hr as the appointment of
chaplain was concerned. The Hon. Member fur Lambeth
had started an objection which he (Lord J. Russell)
thought of the utmost importance. The Hon. Gentleman
opposite proposed that the chaplain should have the power
of regulating and superintending the religious and seeula-
instruction of the children. There was one proviso in
the clause, which it appeared to him (Lord J. Russell)
would have the effect of placing the whole instate ion in
the hands of the chaplain. That was not the case at
Norwood, nor in the establishments which had been
formed by the Poor-law Commissioners. In the docu-
ment which had been referred to by the Hon, Gentle-
men, that of Dr. Kay, it was stated that the chaplain gave
religious instruction during cer.ain hours, and also paid
attention to the general morals of the scholars ; but saith
regard to the general mode of instruction the Commis-
sioners said that from all their acquaintance with the dif
ferret modes of instruction adopted in this country it ap-
peared that the young men in the establishments at Glas.
gow were instructed in the most advanced and improved
anodes of education, and that it was desirable to obtain
young men from those establishments who could be employed
in the instruction in this school.—(Hear, hear.) That
method was accordingly adopted. The Hon, Gentle-
man proposed that a clergyman should be empowered to
regulate and superintend the instruction and training of
these children. There were many learned persons who
entirely disapproved of the new systems of education, and
who if they had the power would recur to the methods in
use half a century ago. He could not think that the Hon.
Gentleman, who was so well acquainted with the whole
snhject of education, wished to see such a result. Unless the
word " religious" were inserted before instruction, and the
word " training" left out, he must object to the clause. He
would not object to the addition of the proviso, with the
omission of these words, on condition that it should he left
open to the lion. Member for Lambeth, cr any other
Member of the House, when the clause was printed, to
bring the subjcc before the House.
Mr. LANGDALE had no objection to the appoint-
ment of a chaplain of the Church of England ; but he
wished the protection extended further than had been
proposed. The 19th section of the osiginal Yoor-law re-
quired some one to object to the education of the child in
the religion of the Established Church. But suppo-e the
case of a child of twelve or fcurtecn years of
age, who had no parents, but whet heel bre
fully instructed in rioters eelijous faith, should that
illild he compelled to (abandon the religious faith in
which be had been educated ? In order to meet this case,
he 'would propose to add these words, " or to the express

wish of the orphan." The cases would be ‘xtretnely rare
in which children would avail themselves of that protec-
ticn. The child r,wt have been fully taught in all the
principles of its raligior, and be fully impressu.¶l with their
importance, Flu could rat scc, therefore, r. bit objection
could be made to the addition of these words. 'Where the
orphan was of an age to make an objection lie s.hould be
allowed to do se.

Sir H. VERNEY said it appeared to him that the
amendment of his Hon. Friend was perfectly trunoccssary.
The board of guardians had at present the power of ap-
pointing chap!ains of every religious denomination, and it
was proposed by the clause then before the Hause to con-
fer the same power upon the board of management of
schools. He thought it therefore quite unnecessary.
Mr. WARD would strongly impress upon the Com-
mittee the necessity of postponing the clause.—(Herr,
hear.) lie did not think they were in a position at pre-
sent to legislate with due discretion upon the subject. In
the case proposed by his Hon. Friend the Member for
Knatesborough be thought a portion of the fords set
apart for tl.e payment of chaplains should be appropriated
to tl e purpo xithout leavirg the matter to the discretion
of the board of management, otherwise they would
have a strog,,-le similar to that which had taken
place With regard to Church•rctes. It was impossible
that the people would consent to the payment of a Poor-
rate which was to be applied exclusively to the religious
education of members of the establishment. Under thee

cireumsta-.es, he trusted the clause would be postponed.
The CHAIRMAN said after they had begun. to amend
a clause it could not to postponed.
Mr. BLACKSTONE was also in favour of the post-
pcnement of the clause, and if that coull not be done, be
hoped some Hon. Member would move its rejection. He
thought the subject required great consideration.
Mr. SLANE Y said the Committee had very nearly
agreed upon the terms of the amendment, and be did not
think it judicious to interfere at such a moment with a
suggestion to postpone or stiikc out the clause.
After a few words from Lord SANDON,

Mr. GLADSTONE thought it was but right to vest a
discretion in the board of management, because in some
cases a child might not be the most competent judge of
what its religious belief was, while in others it might be
much incre competent to declare its own religious belief
than an adult for it. He trusted there would be no post-
ponement of the clause.
Mr. H A WES said the Committee bad been taken is
son .e measure by surprise, inasmuch as the printed amend- '
ment of the Hon. Member for Kilmarnock was totally
silent as to the appektment of chaplains of other re'ig;oua
persuasions, which had been subsequently added. He
thought that formed a very proper ground fur the post-
ponement of the clause.
Mr. T. EGERTON would remind the Hon. Member
fsr Lambeth that the clauso had been discussed for some
hours during the previous night, and therefore it could not
be saia that the Committee was taken by surprise. 1, ap-
peared to him that in point of principle they were hound
to see that their paupers received a religious education,
and that that instruction should be in conformity with tie
Church as by law established in that country.
Lord J. RUSSELL was ready to agree to the proviso
with the amendment as it at present stood, leaving it to
the Hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets and for Knares-
borough to introduce their limitations at a subsequent pe-
riod. It would be extremely injudicious, in his opinion,
after having partly discussed the clause, t) move its re-
jection.
Mr. HAWES put it to Hon. Gentlemen, did any of
them anticipate that his Hon. Friend's proviso included the
payment of chaplains? All his printed amendments were
silent on that point, )et in his written amendments it was
introduced. In fairness to the rate-payers he would object
to that course, and would take the sense of the House
upon it.
Mr. COLQUHOUN said his o-iginal motion wal to
appoint chaplains to the schoul=. lle giver could have
imagined that the services of literate men—men of educete
tion—would be expected to be given without their rcceiv-
irg any salary. That was a proposal he never could have
imagined would have b: en laid Lefore the Commit:cc,
Mr. WARD was willing to adopt the clause, if the Hon.
Gentleman inserted the words '• to be provided for by pro-
portionate payments out cf the poor-rates." Ile ( Mr.
Ward) merely wished to provide funds for the payment of
the salaries of the chaplains aeco,ding to the numerical pre,
portion of the children of the various st=ets to whom reli-
gious instruction was %o be given,
Mr, HUME said it appeared to him that a great deal was
said about payment of chaplains. Now, he saw no reason
why thole schools should not be built in the neighbours
hood of the workhouses, so that the clergyman of the
workhouse might attend the Opining school. There
clergymen for gaols—clergymen for workhouses—
clergymen for schools; why, it appeared to him that
there was a deluge of blackcoats wasting away the pro-
perty of the country. He proposed that the question of
payment be postponed,
Strangers were tha ordered to withdraw, and rho
House divided, when there appeared—
_

For the proviso
Against it

lajority in favour of Mr. Ward's proviso... 87
Mr. TOWNLEY PARKER, objected to the entire
clause, because by perceived in it the strongest symptoms
of perpotuating the power of the Poor-law Commissioners.
He had from the first given his opposition to everything
tending to increase the power of the Commi=siouers, which
thc,tt would most essentially do. It he could but get
the assistance of one Hon. Member, he would divide the
House on the clause.

Mr. DARBY hoped his Hon. Friend would not divide the
time ctt t,tis questiA. Ile (Mr. D.) confessed himself
thr.t ha did not think the largest schools the best. If the
small schools had proper superintendents, they would be,
in I.is opinion, far superior to the large ones. If a dis-
ere,lonary power was not vested in the board of guar.-
dians, there would be two classes of schools—the large
sohools and the small ones. He thought his Honour-
able Friend would do tett,a to wait till he should see
what would become of the other clauses, on which the
operation of the present one very much depended.
Mr. C RIMSDITCII said, that he quite agreed that
the establishment of &strict schools for the education of
children was a desirable thing, but he thought this clause
would be wholly inoperative. It should be made the sub-
ject of separate legislation, This clause provided that the
Commissioners should fix the sciaties of the chaplains,
which was an insult upon the local board:, who were quite
as competent so fit it. He thought the clause so bad in
principle, that he should oppose it,
Mr. WAKLEY thought the clause, as it now stood,
would give great offence, and quite agreed with
the last speaker that this was a subject of sufli-
eient importance for separate legislation.—( Hear, bear.)
This cause gave the Commissioners additioual power and
pa'ronage, and seemed to contemplate the perpetuity of the
Commission, but the feeling against it was increasing so
strongly that it would be quite impossible for the House
much longer to withstand it. With reference to the
cle gy, he thought their conduct towards the poor, since
the intrcduction of the Poor-laws, entitled them to the gra-
titude and admiration of the country.—( Hear. )
After a few words from Mr. Gisborrie and Mr.
Fielders against the clause, and from Mr. Elawes and Mr,
P. Howard in general support of it, the House divided,
when the numbers were—
For the clause
Against it
Maj)rity in favour of the clause —lO5
Sir H. FLEETWOOD then moved an amendment to
the effect, that the rules and regulations relative to the
education of children in workhouses be published, and that
parents should have the power of visiting the schools.
Mr. F. M AULE expressed a belief that the subject
was one which it would be advisable to leave to the di:-
o‘etion of Commissioners.

Sir R. PEEL thonght that it would be very desirable
to allow the schools to be used, whenever that could be
conveniently done, for the education not only of the work-
house children, but for the children of the poor in the
neighbourhood.—( Hear, hear.)
Me. GOULBU RN thought that such a system could
not well come within the scope of the Act.
Sr R. PEEL merely proposed that the power of giving
the extended education which he suggered should be a
discretionary power vested in the Commissioners. He
would not define what were the circumstances under which
the education he proposed should be given; he would not
say, for instance, whether parties should not be obliged
to make some payment for the education of their children.
Mr. FOX :11AULE said that after the explanation
given by the Right Hon. Baronet, he felt disposed to accede
to his views, and he should bring forward, at a future
period, a clause embodying his recommendation.
After some further conversation, the amendment was
withdrawn.
The clause as amended was then ordered to stand part
of the Bill.
Clauses 12, 13, and 14, were struck out.
On clause 15 being par,
Sir ROBERT PEEL said it was necessary to devise
some principle of contribution, or they would never be able
to carry the plan of district schools iota effect. They
would never be able to devise any scheme of contribution
to which four-fifths of the guardians would assent.
Colonel WOOD wished to know whether the contribu-
tions ware to be lesied for the erection of the school-
houses, the maintenance of the children, or the expenses
of the establishment.
Mr. FOX NI AULE said in the first instance they
would have to calculate the propo,tion each union would
have to contribute to the erection of the building, and next
to the contribution each would lii.ve to pay towards the
maintenance of the children, and the expenses of the estas
blishment, such contribution to be regulated by the num-
ber of children sent by each union. He should propose a
clause regulating these contributions.
Sir H. VERNE Y thought, as this was a part of the
system of national education, it was but fair that a portion
of the expense should be borne by the nation.
Mr, G. PALMER thought the subjtet of education
had better be made the subject of a separate Bill.
n'ldhie
Commissioners were appointed only for
that
was impossible they could establish these schools
time. He objected to the educating together the childrennot.
of those who were paupers and those %Ndhobewaedrme
five years.ina
itted
He thought none but pauper children shout .
themselves degraded by being sent there. _
to those, as those who were not paupers might think
Sir R. PEEL had always intended that. pauper
children should have the preference of admission into
those schools, bet is hen there we: e vacancies, when
a considerable portion of the building was unoccupied....
—when the chaplain and the schoolmaster had a consider-
able portion of their time unemployed, he thought it ex.
ceedingly desirable that the children of those who were
not paupers might, on the payment of a moderate sum,
have an opportunity of procuring education for their ch I.
dram Benevolent persons residing in the rdghbourlio-d
would be frequently found glad to furnish the rcu,,, u
m pro-
enable them to attain this object, sNi-.l,ii, in
_l. gto
re-
spect, he considered a most des;raisle one. He
mustesery
test against the doctrine laid down by the Hon.
for Ip',:sex, that Hon. Gentleman would in fact establish
eider it degradation to come into contact ,s. shawl
the
privileged class among the pocr—a class who elisotual.l"h
i elons
immediately below them. It was introducing intocihai:
country all the social inconveni.suces of a state of sLvery.
It was, in fact, karoclaimi.g teat paukerivu, kas degrada.