The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-13 00:00:00

THE SUN, .LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, APRIL' 13, 1847.

I had frequently distinguished themselves in the service of
their country. It was his decided opinion, that all offi-
cers who had attained a particular rank, ought to be
entitled to receive the minimum retiring allowance
attached to their respective ranks, and until
that system were established, much injustice
would be done to the officers of the British army.
He saw no reason why some provision should not be
made for the education of the sons of non-commisioned
officers as well as the sons of commissioned officers. if
a gentleman of private fortune sent his son to bo edu-
cated for the army, he had the means at his command
to give that education, but with the poor man this was
impossible, unless some increased facility were given at
Sandhurst or elsewhere, for that purpose. He was sorry
to trespass so long on the attention of the House, but
the importance of the subject was his apology, and he
hoped the details he had given would have the effect of
drawing attention to the subject. Steam had completely
changed everything relating to the art of war, and he
hoped her Majesty's Government would direct 'their
attenti n to improve the national defences, otherwise the
most disastrous results might follow should an invasion
of this country ever be attempted.
Mr. FOX MAULE was afraid if he alluded to all the
debate his Noble Friend brought before the House, he
would take up a larger portion of their time than they
would be inclined to afford him. His Hon. Friend had
referred to rations, pensions, barracks, and almost every
subject comprehended under military discipline. He
ought, however, to consider that in carrying out these
regulations the Government had to look to other consi-
derations as well as the improvement of the army. They
had to look to the state of the finances, and to the claims
which the other branches of the public service had on
them. The first subject to which his Hon. Friend called
attention was rations. With regard to that, he believed
that the mode adopted in the service might not in all
cases be an equitable arrangement —(Hear, hear.) The
subject had been brought under the attention of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, at the close of the last
session, but when the House recollected the many other
considerations, which of late demanded the attention of
that Right Hon. Gentleman, they would not be surprised
that ho had not yet come to any decision on it. The
spirit ratioa he was happy to say had been
done away with in every colony, with the excep-
tion of Australia and New Zealand, and he was happy
to say that the most beneficial results had followed.
Some discontent had been manifested by a regiment in
Australia, with regard to the rum ration. And he did
not think that the military authorities there had been
wholly exempt from blame in reference to the circum-
stances connected with that. He trusted, however, that
.he discontent would be amicably put an end to, and that
in future matters would proceed in that colony on the
same footing as the other colonies. With regard to the
commutation of the pension, he thought, that to say
it was an act of fraud committed on the pensioner,
was too harsh an interpretation of that commutation.
Fite next question which he touched upon was that of
barracks. He was quite ready to admit that in the pro-
gress of civilization there is much fault to be found in
the over crowded state of some of the barracks. But
the fact of the matter was, that new times were approach-
ing for the army. Men of the old school did not consider
that the soldier could be better off than at the present
moment ; but the progress of public opinion indicated
I that the accommodation to the army should be greatly
extended, and that their wants should be looked to at
the earliest moment. The finances of the country, too,
permit.--(Hear, hear.) He would not desire to
do away with the canteens, but he would propose
to put them under better regulations, and there
was no reason why the canteen room should not form
one of recreation for the men during leisure hours. His
Hon. Friend complained of the accommodation af-
forded to married men. It was no doubt to be regretted
that far better provision was not afforded ; but the ques-
tion was one of a very delicate nature. If there were
only a certain number of married women allowed in the
army for the necessary domestic arrangements, why,
then, he considered that they were bound to see that
they were maintained in a respectful manner. But,
with regard to those soldiers who married
without the leave of their commanding offi-
cers, he was very sorry to say that it
would be most injudicious to afford facility for
such a practice—(Bear hear)— and though he often
blushed at the little convenience afforded to the married
women, yet he was not prepared to advise any change
under the circumstances he alluded to.—(Hear, hear.)
With regard to another point, namely, the passing over
in the brevet of such officers as had entered upon full
pay, lie would only say that, if it was otherwise, retire.
went upon full pay would not be permitted except un-
der very extraordinary circumstances. With reference
to artillery officers and engineers being ineligible to
being placed upon the staff, he would observe that
such was not the fact. There were many
instances to the contrary. He remembered one
case where an officer of artillery was Governor of
Quebec, and had many regiments under his command;
several instances of the same kind .had occurred in
Ireland. There remained only seventeen or nineteen
cases in which any doubt existed, but of these seven or
eight more were granted, leaving at this moment only
nine or ten officers who were promoted under the last
brevet, who had not received the reward to which they
were entitled. On his entering into office he found that
a warrant had been prepared by his predecessor for the
payment of these pensions. Teat warrant was as free
to the public as any Act of Parliament, and therefore
the army could not be kept in suspense or doubt. By
that warrant the pay of unattached general officers
was granted. In 1814 that principle was put
forward, but was found to be too expensive. In
1822 an alteration was made which placed
the system almost upon its present footing.
Several alterations were made until 1844, when Sir H.
Hardinge framed a warrant with reference to the cases
then before the House. It explained, on more detailed and
specific terms, what the services were which would entitle
officers to the benefit of unattached pay. If there were
any gallant officers who did not come within the regu-
lations of that warrant, but who were really entitled to
good service pensions from the State, upon the recom-
mendation of the commanding officer, would come so far
within its benefit as to receive the pay
of 4001. per
annum. The only other point which his Gallant
Friend had touched upon, was the system of educe-
lion in the army. That was a wide field to
discuss ; but, in
the present state of the House,
it would not be advisable to start so important a
topic. His Noble Friend at the head of the Government,
and the Commander•in-Chief, had been in communica-
tion on this subject, and in a short time steps would be
taken to establish a proper examination for officers enter-
ing a higher rank than they had formerly held. His
Hon. Friend had further stated that there should be
some place for the education of the children of soldiers
and non-commissioned officers. There was a place
already established where the orphans of those who had
died in action, and of those who had served their coun
try, were educated—that was the Royal Military Asylum.
There was also the Royal Hibernian Asylum in Dublin,
which was devoted to the same
urose, and which
was found to be most effective in its operation. The
question, however, was one which could not fail
to be entertained by the Government, and proper mea-
sures adopted to effect the object which his lion. and
Gallant Friend so much desired. Ho entreated the
House to place that confidence in the Administration
which he thought it deserved, by the measures it had
already adopted.
Colonel LINDSAY wished to make a few remarks
upon what had fallen from his Right lion. Friend. His
Right Hon. Friend was wrong in saying
that any
women, or wives of soldiers, were kept in the barracks
in London, for there was barely room for the men
themselves. He thought that the ventilation in the bar-
rack-rooms was badly effected, for the men frequently
complained of the lassitude induced by
the impure at-
mosphere in which they slept.
There was also consider-
able difficulty in the men obtaininglodgings for their
wives at a price commensurate with their means, and
many of the men, in order to save their wives from want,
lived, or starved, themselves upon bread and bad spirits.
There was another hardship to which the soldiers were
exposed. Though the allowance to them might be suffi-
cient for them in a single state, they had no means to
meet any extra expense that might be incurred by them
in a married state. If a wife or child died, they were at
the same expense as a civilian ; yet there was no allowance
whatever made for the contingency. He called the at-
tention of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Fox Maule)
to this circumstance, with the hope that be would see it
remedied. He further thought that those soldiers,
whose case had been brought forward by the Hon. and
Gallant Member for Westminster, were fairly entitled to
consideration and redress. He would conclude by ob-
serving that of all the grievances brought forward to-
night, none was so much entitled to the attention of the
government as the case of the married soldiers.
Mr. HUME wished to make a few observations. He
had at an earlier period of the night objected to the bre-
vet as an expensive and useless affair, and the Han. and
Gallant General objected to what he said, though it
would appear from his speech that that brevet had been
tept unimpaired. While
meet unfair and one-sided. In reply to him, he (Mr.
Hume) would say that he was as anxious as he could be
for the real welfare of the soldiers, but he could not
whichexistedhisought in the army. Why,
not to be. He
d the
that service
368 generals, while but 126
iahwegoerpreeeetiontrhav theeceitethere abusesr n
active service.
dirimiwere
etieion of the soldier would be .Tg lit be ,ll:gime to the active service he protested
, especially in regard to ventilation, so that the
hahgeeaawlitnohsutoldtfhtde
ho
inefficientalealri portion. At present they paid for '
the efficient service 4,175,0001, while the inefficient ser-
vice cost 2,150,0001., or one-half of the former. The
brevet of last year alone cost 250,0001., and that was
given entirely to the inefficient service. It was such
abuses as these that he objected to, and which he had
always opposed. He entirely agreed with the lion. and
Gallant General as to the aerective education of the
army, and hoped that the Government would take mea-
sures to have it redressed.
Mr.armyha
r
appeared most extraordinary. inoniyn which existed
that House'
among They seemed all to agree
that there was nothing right in its present treatment.
The Hon. and Gallant General had WILLIAMSWtIhLe L
officerslAM S saidof the harmony
complained of the
present amount of half-pay, when the fact was, it was
of the whole sum paid
equal to one third for the main-
tenance of the army The lln and
Gallant Member
complained that no accommodation was made for the
he (Mr. Williams)
soldiers' wives ;wondered if the
attention of military gentlemen in that House had ever
been directed to the hundreds of thousands of miserable
beings in the country, who had not only no accommoda-
tion, but who wanted the bare necessaries of life. He
(Mr. W liiams) did complain that the officers of the
Guards were immoderately paid for the most
trivial services. Certain gallant men had raised them-
selves to high and honourable positions, like his Hon.
and Gallant Friend beside him (General Evans); but
these gentlemen of the Guards, without having seen
service, worthy of the name, without having been o ,ce
out of the metropolis' were entitled to rank abave the
veterans of the line. When a gentleman in the Guards

obtained the title of Captain, be was entitled to rank
with the Colonels of the other regiments. It was against
this system that he (Mr. Williams) entered his protest
—a protest that was of double force in the present cir-
cumstances of the country.
Captain PECHELL referred to the naval force at
present employed on the coast of Africa, for the sup-
pression of the slave trade, which was alleged to be
combined with the American and the French navies, for
that purpose, and thought that it was extraordinary, to
say the least of it, that no documents had been laid
before the House, to show how this object was carried
out, and whether any irregularities had arisen from joint
captures by the three countries. Considering the arduous
duties, and the fearful risk of life which the officers
and men on that station had to undergo, he could not
conceal his indignation at the wholesale system of
plunder which was pursued by the Admiralty Court, at
the Cape, when called upon to adjudicate upon the prize-
money which was due to them—the produce of the
captured slave vessels. He found that in a recent case
of this kind, a slave ship, the Diana, captured by one of
her Majesty's ships, sold for 559/. From this sum
2731. 17s. was deducted by the Admiralty Court, leaving
the captors only for their share 2851. 3s. The lion. and
Gallant Member instanced other cases of the same kind.
He called on the Secretary of the Admiralty to see to
these things, and to put matters in such a train that
justice would be done to those men who risked their
lives in their country's service, on this pestilential coast.
Mr. WARD said that with respect to the first obser-
vation of the Hon. and Gallant Member, no joint cap-
tures had 3et been made by the ships of the three
nations employed on the coast of Africa, and as re-
garded the system pursued by the Vice-Admiralty Court
at the Cape, he could assure the Hon. and Gallant
Member, and his assertion would be borne out by his
Hon. and Gallant Friend beside him, that no complaints
had reached this country of mismanagement in the busi-
ness of these Courts. It was the desire of the Govern-
ment that every precaution should be adopted to preserve
the health of the officers and men employed on the coast
of Africa, and for that purpose steamers were employed
for the purpose of entering and exploring the rivers, and
such preventatives, against the influence of the climate as
experience dictated, had been adopted. He could assure
the Hon. and Gallant Member that the circumstances
the
utmost brought
re
attention under thenoticeimh
t e ofG me
vt
ehree Houseeet.
shouldvriehhaveehh
SUPI'LY.
The House then went into Committee.
Mr. WARD said, that after the lengthened observe-
;lions which had been made that night, and the discus-
s'ion which had already taken place on the naval estimates,
lie did not intend, to occupy their time, but would con-
tbnt himself by simply Moving the remaining votes.
On
14,2781. be
obeke grantedyards! for the wages
t artificers
% Mr. WILLIAMS rose and said that notwithstanding
icie m o
atdila
discussions.to which the Right Hon. the Secretary
r the Admiralty referred, as a reason why these votes

should not be further considered, he shotlld feel it his
duty to make one or two observations to the House on the
subject of this vote,-arid lie trusted the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman would concede hiaright to do so, as he at all events
had not yet said a word upon the subject.—(fAughter.)
Now he did call upon her Majesty's Governmrnt, and
particularly that part of it which comprised the Admi-
ralty, to look into these estimates, and when they come
down to the House next year with the Navy Estimates,
the items would present a considerable reduction upon

former years.
Lord INGESTRIE must also add a hope that here-
after these estimates would be as much as possible eco•
nomised consistent with the due maintenance of the effi-

ciency of the service. He was rejoiced to see that the
Admiralty had improved the sytem of promotion in the
doek-yards, and he sincerely trusted the Admiralty would
not relax their efforts to encourage and advance the naval
architecture of the country. He should be glad to hear
from some Member of the Admiralty what was doing
with that class of ships known as the Albion class?
A variety of experiments had recently been made with
respect to the merits of different ships, and he had never
seen the report made by Admiral Sir H. Parlier
on the first experimental squadron. He thought it of
the greatest importance that all the information that
could be obtained on these points should be laid before
the House. His position was that there were scien-
tific men available at the present moment who were able
to build better ships than the present surveyors. It was
certain that the steam vessels built by the present sur-
veyors were very defective in their construction. A
Committee had been appointed in 1844 to investigate
the merits of the different ships in the navy

and he wished to know if that analysis, which
he believed had been a careful one, would be
laid before the House. He hoped some tribu-
nal would be established by which real merit would be

encouraged. As the first maritime nation in the world,
they ought to have the best navy in the world, and this
could only be done by calling into requisition the scien-
tific resources of the nation. Before he sat down, he
wished to know if any ships had been sent to make a
survey of the coast of New Zealand ?

Mr. WARD said it would be to no purpose to expect
anything like an unanimous opinion with respect
to the merits of the Albion class of vessels. There

was as much diversity of opinion with regard to
shipbuilding, as there was with regard to religion ; and
the partisans of each system wire quite cs zealous in the
propagation of their views, as the adherents of each re-
ligious sect. In reply to the Hon. Member's question,
he would say that he did not know that there was any
intention of the Admiralty of establishing the screw
principle. He felt very much obliged to the Hon.
Member for his suggestions, many of which had proved
most valuable.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir C. NAPIER was very glad that the House had at
last opened its eyes, for he had been endeavouring to
do so for the last five years. He did think that it was
a disgrace to the Admiralty to permit such vessels to be
used as the Albion and Aboukir, which rolled tremen-
dously, so that under a small weight of canvass they
could not fight their guns. Now, the three-
d►eckers which were at present on the stocks, it
was fair to presume, would roll equally if they were
built upon the plan of the surveyor's report. For the last
fifty years, all the vessels in the navy had been
built upon the plan of one or two persons,
whether that was right or wrong. The surveyor
should only report upon the timber and iron in the
ships, and the shipwrights in the different ports should
be allowed to construct vessels upon their own plans,
and they would have better vessels, as they would have
a competition between them.—(Hear, hear.) He did
not allude to steam•vessels, as be had gone over that
part of the service SO often that ho would not trouble

the House again—but if they wanted the return,
of the expenses of the Queen's yacht they would be per-
fectly astounded. They were tremendous. Yet in spite
of them they would have to give a new one, and he
would vote for it, as in her present one she had to get up
on a chair to look out of the windows.
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote was 1,556,4954 for the expenses con-
tingent upon maritime stores.

Mr. HUME said that a great amount of money had
been wasted upon the construction of vessels. He dm-
sidered that an enquiry was absolutely necessary.
Such an officer as Sir Wm. Symonds ought to
be removed, as, since he came into office,
10,000,0001. bad been expended upon vessels,
and not one good one had been turned out.
For fifteen years this system of misrule had been carried

on, and he -wanted the Government to declare what they
meant to do in redressing these matters. If the Hon.
and Gallant Admiral (Sir C. Napier) would take the
sense of the House on the question, `he would certainly
vote with him on it. If he judged aright of the reports
which had been made to the Admiralty, they all con-
demned, in tote, the system pursued by Sir W. Symonds.
Now, what he wanted the Government to do, was to pro-
duco these reports to the House, and then it would be seen
what was really the truth. It was said that there had
not been a single ship turned out by Sir W. Symonds
but what had cost one-fourth of her original expense in
altering and improving her, to make her fit for service.
Captain BERKELEY did not rise to defend the Ad-
miralty generally, but he rose to defend Sir William
Symonds from the attacks made upon him. He would
call the attention of the Hattie to the fact, that both
during the late, as well as the present Admiralty, the
greatest compliment had been paid that gentleman for
the ships he had constructed. It had been said that he
had turned out no good ships, but, in answer to that, be
would point out the Vernon and Cleopatra, two of the
finest ever launched.

Lord INGESTRIE thought there were many things
in the navy that required full inquiry into, and in order
to do so, a Committee ought to be appointed. But it
should be a full and searching inquiry, that all the facts
might be brought out.

Sir C. NAI?IER said he would move, in place of the
sum proposed by the Government, as an amendment,
that it be 1,500,0001. In doing so, he would remark
that in his observations he confined himself to Sir Wil-
liam Symond's line of battle ships alone, and not to his
small vessels or frigates, to which he had paid but little
attention.

Captain PECHELL defended Sir Wm. Symonds from
the attacks made upon him. During the American war
they endured the greatest mortification, because their
ships did not equal in sailing qualities the ships of their
opponents. But now, thanks to Sir W. Symonds, their
navy was wonderfully improved in this particular. Let
Ikem compare them with the French navy. Why, Prince
de Joinville, in his report, declared that even a smart
breeze paralysed half the guns of their three
deckers, and this could scarcely be alleged against
the British ships. He did not know what was the ob•
ject of the Gallant Admiral in this amendment, but he
(Captain Pechell) for one, would nut vote against the
ropes or the canvass, or any other of the naval stores,
merely because he wished to pass some censure on Sir
William Symonds. While on this subject he would wish
to know what the Government intended to do with a
very valuable invention by a gentleman (Mr. Jeffray) for
the caulking of ships ? It was a most useful discovery-,
and one calculated to save a very great sum to Govern-
ment.
Mr. WARD said that the marine glue had given very
great satisfaction, and he hoped that it would receive
the favourable consideration of the House at some future
period.
Sir C. NAPIER said that Hon. Gentlemen seemed to
consider that his amendment was intended as a sort of
censure on Sir W. Symonds. He intended it for no-
thing of the kind. All he desired was, to express
his disapprobation of the manner in which the public
stores had been wasted for years past. He had cer-
tainly expressed his opinion of Sir William Symonds
mode of building ships of the line, but he had done so
candidly and openly. He would not on this occasion
put the House to the trouble of dividing, if the Secre-
tary to the Admiralty would give the House some hope
that a Committee would be afterwards appointed to exa-
mine into this subject.
Mr. WARD could not give any hope of the kind.
It the evil existed to which the Gallant Admiral re-
, ferred, the present Board of Admiralty would endea-
vour to remedy it, but he saw no necessity for a Com-

mittee. and he could hold out no promise that such would
be appointed.
The vote was then agreed to.
A vote of 559,600/. for new works, improvements, and
repairs in naval stations was agreed to.
The sum of 22.839/. fur medical stores, was also
agreed to.
The sum of 59,8471. for miscellaneous services was
agreed to. _ _

On the vote of 725,7181. to defray the charge of the
half-pay of officers of the navy,
Mr. krumE objected to the system of promotion.
He thought that no favour whatever should be ex-
hibited, but that merit alone should be the passport to
promotion.

- Admiral RUNDAS defended the course the Govern-
ment adopted, and maintained that they had adhered to
former precedents.

Captslin PECHELL complained that the masters on
board of her Majesty's vessels were not properly con-
sidered. Although they ranked with a lieutenant, they
were subordinate to each of the lieutenants, and in casc,
of the death or accidental removal of one of the lieu-
tenants, a midshipman would be chosen to supply his
place in the room of any of the masters.
Mr. CRAVEN BERKELEY [aid, that ho acknow-
ledged the utility and the claims of the masters, but he
thought that the sphere which they then occupied, was
the best calculated for the display of their powers. The
highest ranks in the service were still open to them.
After a few words from Captain GORDON and Admiral
DUNDAS,

Sir CHARLES NAPIER said that he could not
agree with his Gallant Friend the Member for Glou-
cester, for he thought that the masters were not
in their proper sphere. They were liable to be under
the command of a mere boy, whose knowledge in the
service could net be compared for a moment with theirs.
He could mention many instances, in which younger and
less experienced individuals had been promoted over the
heads of old officers of this description.
The vote was then agreed to.
A vote of 486,4471. to defray the charges of military
pensions, was then agreed to ; also, a vote of 153,4501.
for civil pensions.
The following votes were also agreed to:—
A vote of 243,2081., to defray the expense of tran-
sports and the conveyance of troops and stores.
A vote of 21,674/., to defray the expenses of main-
taining and conveying convicts.
A vote of 564,3771., for the packet service arid Post-
office expenses.

The House then resumed, and Mr. GREENE reported
progress.

ARMY SERVICE BILL.
The report of the Army Service Bill was brought up
and received.
HARBOURS, DOCKS. AND PIERS CLAUSES
BILL.
This Bill was read a third time, and passed.
REGISTERING BIRTHS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Captain GORDON trusted the Lord Advocate would
postpone the Registering Births, &c. (Scotland) Bill.
The Bill was postponed.
EXCHEQUER BILLS (18.310,7000 BILL.
This Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be
committed.
PORTLAND HARBOUR OF REFUGE, &e., BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed.
PAYMENTS OF RATES AND TAXES BY
ELECTORS.
Sir DE LACY EVANS moved for leave to bring
in a Bill for the regulation of the payments of rates and
taxes by Parliamentary electors. —Granted.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of
and the House adjourned at a Quarter past. One o'clock'

KENDAL ELECTION.—Mr. George Carr Glyn has
issued an address to the electors of Kendal. His senti-
ments are manly, straightforward, and liberal. His
well-known business habits have met with much favour
in this independent borough. The electors appointed a
committee to select a suitable candidate, and from those
who were named, the committee resolved that Mr. Glyn's
sentiments were satisfactory, and will report such an
opinion to a meeting of the electors to be held on Tues-
day next. Certainly the manner in which the choice of
candidates is conducted in Kendal, and the unanimity
and prudence manifested, is deserving of much praise.
HON EVIL SHOULD BE TURNED INTO BLESSINGS.

—We have already said that our towns ought to be
looked upon as so many gigantic farmsteads ; that
they should, in fact, bear the same relation to the
surrounding country which the farm-yard does to
the farm. Is it not strange that this obvious ana
logy should have so Jong escaped notice ? and that
when tho proposition is announced, it should sound
strange in our ears? But so it does, and will continue to
do, till we condescend to pay more attention than we have
hitherto done to the merely physical part of man's com-
pound nature. This body—what is it but a furnace of
flesh in which, as in other animal bodies, the watery parts
of our food are evaporated, the charcoal burned away,
and the ashes discharged ?—the products of combus-
tion going to reinforce the ocean of aerial manure, the
ashes to be used or wasted as man in his wisdom or folly
shall decree. That which passes into the air cannot but
be put to its proper use. Nature, who wastes nothing
takes care of that; but man, foolish man! misunderstand-
ing the intent of providence in endowing those ashes with
offensive propertie., treats them as mere waste, and is
but too happy if he can see them blackening the pure
stream in their way to the ocean. Or, not content
with merely wasting that which ought to be most scru-
pulously saved, he adds to the sin of extravagance the
greater crime of so disposing of these ashes, that they
become the prolific source of disease. Thus, that which
should be the material of food for the support of man's
life, is converted into an active poison for its destruction.
—PeOple's Journal.
THE DUKE'S STATUE AS THE COMMITTEE DESIRED
IT.—The consummation of the Committee's hopes (the
removal of the scaffolding, and a waste of a little more
money), seems likely, if anything in this world can
do so, to open their eyes, so long wilfully blinded.
Every spar that is taken down makes the monstrous
disproportion of statue to arch, the former being
looked at as a part of the latter, more evident,
and the height and impropriety of the arch as a pedestal
merely, if it is to be so considered, more glaring. The
proceedings here have been so discreditable to us as a
nation, in an artistical point of view, that we blush when
reflecting on them. How much longer the farce is to be
played seems uncertain. It must be much more to the
amusement of neighbouring nations than ourselve- -
The Builder.

BARRA, SOUTH I.IIST, AND BENBECUL
learn from a private source, that a stringent but neces-
sary measure is to be adopted with respect to the pocr
on the estates of Colonel Gordon, of Cluny, in the West
Highlands. The Board of Supervision for the poor, in
Edinburgh, are in course of appointing a commissioner
to proceed to the islands of Barra, South Mit, and Ben-
becula, for the purpose of taking cornisance of the state
of the inhabitants, His object will be to place upon the
poor's roll such persons as are entitled to temporary or
permanent relief, and along with the commissioner will
be sent a supply of meal and provisions for distribution
among the paupers. The supplies judged necessary by
the commissioner and the additional burd€n imposed by
the operation of the poor-law will be laid upon the pro-
prietor. According to the statute the commissioner in
such cases must be a member of the Scottish bar, and
we have no doubt a gentleman will be selected who will
arbitrate fairly between the owner and the people of
those islands—between the duties and the rights of pro-
perty.—lnverness Courier.

THE RECENT CASE OF STABBING NEAR SOHO-
SQUARE.-OR making inquiry yesterday (Sunday) at
the Middlesex Hospital, respecting the unfortunate man
Berry, who was stabbed by his wife on the evening of
the Bth inst., Mr. Dickson, the house surgeon, stated
that he considered him quite out of danger.
THE Caors.—Never did we see, at all events for a
considerable period, the crops look so well as at the pre-
sent time in the neighbourhood of Wigan. During the
week the weather has been very changeable, but, to use
the farmers' own words, "it has been all for the better."
—Preston Pilot.

MYSTERIOUS DEATH.—MANCHESTER, APRIL 10.
—This morning, about six o'clock, a respectably dressed
man was found in the drain or sewer at the aide of the
Liverpool and Manchester Railway, near the Weast-lane
station, quite dead. in his left hand was found a third-
class ticket, from which it appeared that the deceased
was booked at Liverpool for Manchester, and must have
left by the third-class train, which leaves Liverpool at
half-past six P.M. The only way in which this accident
can bo accounted for is, that the deceased must have
jumped out of the carriage before the train stopped at
the Weast-lane station, or that ho was drunk and fell
out. The latter, however, is improbable, as some of his
fellow-passengers must have noticed such an event, wh •
does not appear to have been the case.
ACCIDENT AT TWICKENHAM—OD SatUrday after-
noon Mr. Wakley, M.P., coroner, held an inquest at the
Prince Blucher Arms, Twickenham-common, on the
body of Frederick Nicklewright, aged 50 yea's, bailiff
to Sir William Clay, Bart., M.P. From the evidence it
appeared that the deceased had been in • the service of
Sir William Clay for the last twenty yeah. About four
years ago Sir William Clay purchased the property
known as Falwell Lodge, Twiekenhani, ;which consisted
of the mills and a farm. The mills weri subsequently
let, and Sir William Clay plaeed on the farm a thresh-
ing machine, whych was worked by tho water-wheel of
the mills. Oa Ihe morning of ThuriOay last the de-
ceased went to the premises to set the:inachine in mo-
tion, and was drawn therein, and before-assistance could
be rendered him -he was' almost litkrallY torn into pieces.te
The only person present at the time wad a boy of
.h •
name of Brencydey, who hastened for assistance,whiy
was promptly pbtained, but not in time to Pave
Ps
le.'
de-
ceased's life. When extricated the body presentedltela
most frightful appearance, the head beingvand
lcuonm
severed from the body, the heart, liver g
ally torn out, and the legs and thighs broken. The evi-
dence clearly showing that no person was to blame but
the deceased himself, the jury returned a verdict of
" Accidental death."

INCRRASE IN THE PRICE OF PttOVISIONS.—A con-
siderable advance has taken place within the last week in
the retail prices of butcher's meat, bacon, pork, &c.,
although no visible increase can be perceived in the prices
obtained in the wholesale markets. In Clare-market,
Newport. market, Oxford-street, and the vicinities, New-
cut, and Lambeth-walk, the prices usually asked and
obtained are as follows:—Breasts and necks of mutton,
6d. to 6id. per lb.; shoulders, 611.; legs, 7d. to 71d. per
lb., being an advance of a penny, and in some
.i.nim.setspaenallncer:_st lid. in the lb. Beef has advanced a penny in the lh.,
and a similar increase has taken place in dairy-fed and
Berwick pork; the rise in bacon is 1 -d. per lb. American
provisions have also advanced in price, the only. articlef.
remaining stationary being cheese. . The prices of
1 vegetables, particularly potatoes, parsnips,. carrots, i
ossi-
turnips, have so much increased, that it is an
bility for the poorer classes to purchase; potatoes
21d. to 3d. per lb.; those at
.2d are. scarcely edciubtl ;will:
in consequence of the quantity obliged to be
the price is increased to nearly sd. per lb.

NATIONAL EDUCATION.
SPECIAL MEETING OF THE COMMON
COUNCIL.
WEDNESDAY, March 31.
After the transaction cf the ordinary business,
Mr. FRANCIS BENNOCII rose and said, it was now-
his duty and his privilege to introduce to that Honour--
able Court a motion of surpassing Interest—one which
related to a matter in which was involved the happiness of
millions, and the success and the continued prosperity,.
he believed, of the empire. The motion bad been on.
the business paper for a considerable period; but he had,
been prevented by various matters from bringing ite•
gproeraatti qouneostfio Lnonodf
en d ii
earlier forward. Had this not been the case, the Cor-
ghotn,hawvielich erewtahsis,ndoiwscuagssietadtitnhge
the public mind, instead of discussing it at a period
when some of the effects which might have be, n derived.
from such a discussion might have been lost. This was.
to be attributed to certain unhappy circumstances to
which he could not further allude, because they were
well known, and duly appreciated by the members of
the Court. But it was a great gratification to know
that, in discussing the question of education, they could
approach it deliberately and consider it calmly, without
agitation of an obnoxious character, and without any of
those feelings which wculd prevent them from doing full
justice to the question. The motion which he had to pro-
pose was:—"'!'hat the state of education in Great.
Britain and Ireland is confessedly deficient and lament-
ably defective. That the existence of so much ignorance
is a reproach to the nation, and greatly to be deplored;
inasmuch, as poverty, destitution, misery, and crime are,
if not the consequence of it, seldom found disaociated
from it. As the means hitherto employed for the
increase of knowledge among the people have
proved insufficient for the necessities of the popu-
lation, the assistance of the State becomes an
imperative necessity.—(Cheers.) It is not only
an act of justice and mercy, but also to the interest,
safety, and security of society, that no subject within
these realms should longer continue without the oppor-
-tunity" of mental enlightenment, as a means of moral
elevation and mental improvement. That an humble
address, based upon the foregoing considerations, be
presented to her Majesty the Queen, praying that
she will be graciously pleased to exercise every
legitimate influence vested in the Crown to urge
forward in Parliament such measures as :hall pro-
vide for the general education of the people." The
motion partook more of the nature of a petition
than of an ordinary motion, and somewhat argued the
question. He had so worded it in order that no one
might attend without being perfectly confident of
the whole of the arguments, which he should feel it his
duty to make. With him it was no new question, as it
was one which he had discussed and debated on all
fitting opportunities during the last 12 or 15 years—
nay, more, he was instrumental, and in fact responsible
for a course of lectures which were delivered in London
ten years, by a gentleman who was at that time one of
the most popular writers on the subject. He was glad be
was enabled to bring four or five Peers, and twelve or fife
teen Members of Parliament to listen to them ; but he
had to regret that he was unable to interest the then Lord
Lord Mayor on the subject of the promotion of educa-
tion. He wrote and waited upon him; but he would
neither countenance by his presence, nor patronise
with his name, the series of lectures on this impor-
tant subject; believing, as he said, that they were in-
tended "for the promulgation of some unimportant sub-
ject some new tangled doctrine likely to disturb
the public peace and the safety of society.''—(Name,
name.) He would tell them. He alluded to Alder-
man Wilson. From that time he confessed that his
heretofore profound reverence for the Lord Mayor and the
Court of Aldermen began to diminish ; but his opinions
had of late years been much modified, and there were
many who bad filled the high office of mayor for whom
he entertained much respect. But to come to the sub-
ject of education. The necessity for education was, he
believed, conceded.—(flear.) There had been a demand
for education almost since the first existence of society.
They recollected the saying of one whom they all reve-
renced—" Go and teach all nations." It was the first
law of nature, for even the brutes must be tutored be-
fore they could perfume their daily tasks. Thus savage
man in his turn must yield before civilised man,
and a civilised man was only produced by
education. Were man a mere animal, ho would require
little education, because his instinct would be sufficient to
provide for him his daily food, as that would be all he
would require. But he was gifted with intellectual
qualities, the power and knowledge of judging and of
discussing, added to which was his moral nature, which
controlled the other qu tlities, which, without its
aid, might prove injurious. Therefore it was evident
that any education which did not embrace the develop-
ment of these three qualities, was inferior as a scheme of
national education. The labourer in the fields re-
quired probably the least education, but still
he requited education, because it was a knowledge,
of the instruments he wielded which gave him power
over the soil he digs ; it was education that taught the
higher man gifted with 41, greater intellect the way to
produce the most intricate machinery—to have education
was all. important—because it gave him his peculiarly
distinguishing feature. Thus in every stage of life is
demonstrated the necessity for education. By it the
early lisp'ngs of childhood are invested with intelligence.
Through boyhood that intelligence becomes expanded,
until in manhood, the student can draw from the wells of
the knowledge which exalteth, and in his retirement
hold sweet communion with the rays of antiquity, whose
spirits are enshrined in books, and this surely is one of the
highest prerogatives of man. The motion which he had the
honour to propose divided itself into three parts—first
the deficiency of education, next the defectiveness of
education, and lastly the consequences of this deficiency
and defectiveness, and the necessity for the adoption of
some different system. He intended to compress his
facts and arguments into the smallest compass
consistent with the magnitude and importance
of the subject. To prove the deficiency of education, he
should refer to reports, and other documents of unques-
tionable data. In 1833 he found that the population of
this country was 14,400,000—that there were 3,600,000
of the population between the ages of five and fifteen—
that there were 1,200,000 day-scholars between those
ages, 2,400,000 attending no day-school—that 1,548,000
attended Sunday-schools 548,000 only being in the
habit of attending day-schools. The result came to this,
that out of that number, 1,000,000 ,were Sunday-school
scholars, 1,200,000 day, and that 1,400,000 were in total
ignorance, without an atom of education. Thus above
one-third went to day-schools; less than one-third to
Sunday schools, and over one-third to no school at all.
More than one-third of all the children of this vast
empire, between the ages of five and fifteen, are without
any means of education whatever !—(llear, hear.) But
the reports published in 1844, proved that the state of
education, at that time, was worse rather than better.
That was, the general character of education. The
particular character was somewhat more remarkable. In
his estimation, statistics proved everything ; but some
were of opinion that anything might be proved by
statistics ; but here they were undoubted as they were
collected by parties employed by the Government,
and by educational societies ; the results thus collected
demonstrated, that instead of showing the darkest side
Of the picture, the actual state of things, previous to
these inquiries, had been much underrated. In Man-
chester, there were 50,000 children between five and
fifteen, 10,000 of whom attended day schools, 23,000
Sunday, and 17,000 attended no school at all. Salford
was the same. Liverpool was worse, as fully one-half
were without the means of education. Hull, York,
and Bristol presented the same results, and were all
equally bad. The Hon. and Rev. Baptist Noel, whom
everybody respected, telt to much interest in the sub-
ject, that he made a private inspection of several
schools, in order to ascertain whether the Government

reports were, or were not, correct, and he found that

and that the
alcsen
hapdlacbee,
been represented.
nstoateexoafggeeri
de by Lord Kerry, it
utcioantionhadwasta
the same result,. By a report ma
parishes and hamlet.
Mr. Bennoch read a number of other extracts, showing
4 possessed Sunday,
wholly destitute of schools ;
total of 3,706 without a
but no day, schools, making a
appeared that there were 2.6614,02
clay-school
of any description.—(Shame.) ame.) It was a
that such a state of things should be
palpable shame
allowed to exist. With respect to many of the rural
districts, from a return published by the Registrar-
General, it appeared that only one half of the people
married could sign their names. Some people might say
that this arose from timidity—(Laughter)—as people
in such a situation were apt to get exceedingly
nervous ; but why they should be timid and nervous in
the most honourable act of their whole lives, he was
wholly at a loss to know.—(Laughter.) It also ap-
peared that 8,000,000 of the population could not write,
and that 5,000,000 could not read. Then, with respect
to the schoolmaster. It had been shown and proved
by competent anthorities, that the care of the rising
generation was, in the majority of cases, confided to the
care of those who had failed in all other pursuits ; and
occupation in the
atest number of schools
that the schoolmaster was the lowest, instead of being
the highest and most respected
kingdom.—(Hear.) Three
these day and dame schools,
g
in the large towns
would perceive how monstrously defective was the
mof education pursued in them. Ile found
but from certain reportswe which had been published, they
in the last number of the British
Quarterly Review. NN i
article on education ,
esYx'sttreacts from these reports collected in an excellent
th respect to those schools he found
a report of the lion. and Rev. B. Noel, stating that—
“ln Liverpool, with few exceptions, the dame schools
are dark and confined ; many are damp and dirty ; more
than one-half of them are used as dwelling, dormitory, and
school-room, accomodating, in many cases, families of seven
or eight persons. Above forty of them are cellars.
"In Manchester, the greater part of them are kept by
females, but some by old men, whose only qualification for
this employment seems their unfitness for any other. Many
of these teachers are engaged at the same time in some other
employment, such as shopkeeping, sewing, washing, &c.,
which renders any regular instruction among their scholars
absolutely impossible. Indeed, neither parents nor teachers
seemed to consider this as the principal object in sendirg the
children to these schools, but generally say that they go
there in order to be taken care of, and to be out of the way
at home."

And with respect to common rchools:—
" It was a room on the ground-floor, up a dark and narrow
entry, and about twelve feet square. Here forty-three boys
and girls were assembled, of all ages, from fire to fifteen.
Patches of paper were pasted over the broken panes of the
one small window, before which also sat the master, inter-
cepting the few rays of light which would otherwise have
crept into the gloom. Although it was in August, the win-
dow was closed, and a fire added to the animal
heat, which radiated from every part of the crowded
chamber. In front of the fire, and as near to it as a
joint on the spit, a row of children sat, with their faces
towards the master and their backs to the furnace. By this
living screen, the master, though still perspiring copiously,
was somewhat sheltered from the intolerable heat. As
another measure of relief amidst the oppression of the steam-
ing atmosphere, he had also laid aside his coat."
This was a perfect sample of them
. British
all.
look at the condition of the National and
Schools-- But let tbPm
" The great majority of the patrons and cadactors of the

National and Lancastrian schools which I visited, only pro-
fess to tech the children reading, writing, andarithhimsteo arithmetic.
The knowledge of the English language, natural
geography, physiology, and the history otheir country, are
all excluded subjects. Upon none of those could I examine
the ehildren generally, because their teachers professed the
tote )ignorance of the children respecting them. If occa-
sionally I heard that Liverpool was an island, that Lanca-
shire was one of the great towns of England, and that Asia
and Americachieett t
countries of Europe, I was led to
expect this if Iwheeard such grammatical inaccuracies as those
contained in the following answers to questions put by me:—
Them as is good goes to heaven The men as was
'
up into heaven'—' He drownded the whole world ;'
thg9eSziengwere- mistakes which the teacher did not undertake to
correct."
In these schools the scholars were poor and they
found that they went to them ignorant and from the
want of a proper system of training, that their evil
dispositions were developed by association, and that
they were frequently led into the commission of crime,
as the little knowledge they were taught, was just
sufficient Ly association to induce them to commit
depredations. It would be almost superfluous
in him in that Court to refer to the
evils which arose from a want of education, but his
Lordship and the gentlemen of the Court of Aldermen
who had held the office of sheriff; had, in that capacity,
and as magistrates, been in the habit of visiting the crimi-
nals of the metropolis, and had no doubt
went hand
h in
ignorance and wretchedness and crime I'
hand. The judges referred to it; Nelr. Sergeant
Adams came forward with his monthly and
1 at
abrepi
try t o remedyt. lair eating
the amount of juvenile crime, and his
the evil. This belonged more
properly to the question
education ; but still
of juvenile crime than
a
it was necessary that he should refer to
ignorance and crimp, as t they formed a part
of his resolution.
valuable report of the British
Foreign School Sole:.
In
the
;or 1845, he found that one-third
of the criminals ()f e
13 rkehire could not read, that Cam-
bridge and
connected with .a_o(ardnd ),
one half could not read; in
_
Denbigh two-thirds were in a similar condition, and that
of Essex (one of the Council was
the half of those
with Essex), were totally ignorant.. In
connected
Hereford, out of 385, cn y one could read well, and in
Sussex (one of those delicious sequestered agricultural
districts), out of 877, 141 did not know their Saviour's
-n-a-me, 498 knew it and no more, and then only in con-
nexion with an oath; 179 had only a confused
notion of his history, and only 1 in 14, or 59, had
the faintest glimmer of the Christian faith. They
had tried punishments of various kinds, in order to
deter persons from the commission of crime, but they had
signally failed, and he hoped thet they would now take
more religious means, by the aid of education, to improve
the condition of tL ose unhappy persons. As a proof of how
much more expensive the punishment of crime was than
its prevention, he might refer to the fact lately state! by
the magistrates of Liverpool, that they selected at random
14 criminals, whose ages varied from 9 to 14, whose ag
gregate commitments amounted to 133 times, or 91- times
each, and who had cost the country 8891. ls.-8891.
for punishing 14 criminals, or between 701. and 80/. each,
whereas by a properly organised system of education,
the common interest of the money would have educated
30 or 40 children.—(Loud cheers.) This money was
spent in punishing, not in reclaiming, because they had
each been repeatedly punished. When the question
arose, would education deter from crime?—(hear, hear.)
Was education the cause of crime, or was its want the
cause? The argument that men of education had be-
come criminals was no reason against the education of
the people. He granted that such things had happened,
but.still that did net prove that it was not the duty of every
man—the duty of the nation—to gi,,e every man the
means of advancing himself in the world. Because a mu
was born poor was that any reason why he should not
rise in the social scale, that he should not Lave the means
of elevating himself ? He contended that the most im-
portant means to thet end was education. But how seas
this to be done ? We see the necessity, but we are over.
come by the difficulties which surround it. Could they
overcome it by voluntary eeetributione which some people '
considered the great panacea fur the ignorance o; the
the people? Two opinions prevailed—one that it was
sufficient, and the other that it was not. But if Volun-
taryism was sufficient, how was it that one-third of the
popul oion were in Cimmerian darkne-s. Certainly if it
was sufficient they must have sadly neglected their duty.
Voluntaryism was a beautiful system, but what did it
du ? It certainly contributed largely in various ways;
but the voluntaryism of the State was far more impor-
tant; for aid by the State was but another form
of contributing money from the same source.
Voluntaryism did not punish criminals, it did not fight
their battles, it did not provide for the poor. When it
did all these things, then he should consider that volun-
taryism would be enabled to educate the people.—(C neers.)
There were probably many gentlemen in that Court,
who had not had any large sums of money expended
upon their education.---(Hear.) Yet there were many
who was without education, so far as the school-
master was concerned, listening and taking a part
in the discussion of this great question. Thus
several who had been thus situated had become
representatives of the City of London ; but had theyre
mained totally ignorant, they would not have been called
to fill so honourable a post. Was there a man there
who could not read and write ?—(Yes.) Some gentle-
man said yes, but, he never had the misfortune to meet
with one who was so igeorant. Should any such be
prasent now, their support I am sure to have ; and should
there he those (as I know there are) who have only
received the merest rudiments of education, yet by
unremitting zeal and rectitude have become members of
this court—their support I confidently exp-ct, because
wine can feel so keenly, or know so truly, nar describe
se forcibly, the sleepless nights, the perplexities, the
struggles of uneducated intellect striving under every
disadvantage to assert its power, and the difficulty in
seizing the opportunity calculated to lift him to a
superior station in society, all of which a
little more judicious training would have ren-
dered comparatively easy. lie could not under-
stand any means that could be brought to promote edu-
cation efficiently without the assistance of the State.
Could the State educate, was one question, and how edu-
cate was the next. He could prove that the State
could educate. Even despotic nations had shown that
they could educate their people ; but a free country
possessed an additional advantage, as it could educate
and consolidate its power. Ic Germany and Prussia
education was compulsory. In America it was not so ;
but it was made very attractive. In America it was
stated as a general rule, that in the those States, in
which education was promoted by the Govern-
ment, that the most was done by the people ;
and that " wherever the Government extended
education that the people were found anxious to
avail themselves of it; where there now is little or no
legislative effort the amount of instruction is as small
as was compatible with any degree of diffusion of know-
ledge." That fact showed more forcibly that the aid of
the Government was required than anything he could
urge if he were to speak for a month. Those states
which did not receive much aid were exceedingly
ignorant. In New York education was progressing
favourably, as one-fourth of the population was receiving
instruction. The following was the state of education
in the various states:—
" New York - - 1 pupil to 3.9 inhabitants.
Massachussets, Maine, Con-
necticut
1 to 4
New England - -I— to 5 Pennsylvania, New Jersey -1— to 8
Illinois - to 13
Kentucky - - - - 1 to 21
For a man to have a child growing up without
going to school, was considered the greatest scandal
that could attach to him. But if all he
had stated was done in America, why could
it not be done in England?—(Hear, hear.) It was said
here that the assistance of the State would do away
with the independence of the people. Was it more
destructive to independence to look to the State for
education, than to feel that we depended upon private
bounty or public charity for it ? Many of those who
were educated
,in :charitable institutions, found that a
kind of stigma attached to them which often lasted to
the day of their deaths. He was reproached with it.
The State, therefore, was the proper and only means,
by whose aid a national system of education
could bo carried out, and the State was now
desirous to do it.—(Hear.) He regretted that one of
the greatest obstacles raised to the scheme was religion.
Religious difficulties were the only obstacles ROW placed
in the way of the Government.—(Hear.) The Episcopal
Church would have no education, unless it was placed
upon or supported by religion. The Dissenters would
have no State support, and other sects opposed it for
similar reasons ; so that between them all the nation
would suffer, unless the Government had the determina-
tion to go filly and fairly into the question, in defiance
of such opposition as that with which they were me-
naced. The flowing tide would be stayed,
if not rolled backwards for fifty years.
Could it be for the interest of religion that
a scheme in which the happiness of the rising gene-
ration was involved should be destroyed ? it could not
be. Perhaps the best system to adopt would be a
system of perfectly secular education, making the parents
responsible for the religious instruction of their children,
not that he was opposed to any system of religious edu-
cation, but he was anxious to obtain knowledge for the
P!')Ple almost on any terms.—(Cheers.) No compul-
shoes by the State could make a person change his reli-
gion.wiea
I..A•r_reras
adhered
instance of the tenacity with
wu to b7loun,idbered to the religion of their forefathers
Ireland. Several 11;trez of
ietth the last report on education in
were educated in
ewoh tent school,
Roman Catholic parents
lenient religion; but and in the Pro-
again to the Roman CathetT.
maintained the prirciplea Re thought he had
enunciated at the
commencement of his aadres:c- he
to' and that
the Government was likely the scheme of
—it was the best and most cePesPoptv%Thast advantageous
have been adopted in his OpiniOne-ueeslve that could
stances—(Hear, h.,ar)---Itiid consitnteder theip„:'rcata
excitement heel been occasioned with respect i'tree of
thought there had been a considerablee lle
crude, hasty, 'unreasonable calumnies, cast de of
r:
If he had any objection at all to the Government elm :-
was this—that it did not go far enough. But hePeviseheid
tto have it tested as proposed, and no doubt the experi-
ence which would be obtained would enable them to
materially improve it. Some sail that it was unconsti-
tutional, but he was at a loss to know what could be un-
constitutional in giving the repree=entatives of the people
—their representatives—the control of education. Then
it was said to be sectarian. How could it be sectarian,
when it supported alike every religious belief, and
every religious denomination ? If it applied only
ee, the Established Church, it might be called
sectarian, and it would deserve the same character if it
applied to the dissenters alone; but as it applied to one
sect as much as to another, he thought it was about the
best scheme that could be adopted. " But it is inquisi-
torial," said a third party. Why? Wherever public
money was applied to a public purpose, there must be
public inspection. Private charities privately ad.
mini:tired, were too frequently seats of cot.-

• ' ruption; and public money, if privately expended,
• might be expended improperly, and diverted to
corrupt purposes; but here Government inspection
would keep the fountain clear and prevent any mis-
t appropriation for the future. But another party_ ob-
jected to it, on the ground of centralisation—centrdalitsba-e
tion the bane of Europe, the curse of France, an b
misery of the civilised world. Centrbaelismigirt
a despot was unquestionably bad, as
scautribonthienwieldedattempt
toy
trill
and thoughts
Governmentofhis subjectwas centralisation,;.b ut centr
these cchools, inspection would ten .
point of fact, in the people themselveds,tfookr
eienpthtiemcaseof
those intrusted with them, and to 7if they
admi-
nistration of the funds pure
_and jubsto,mandcowmepreel
into the administration of the funds, they would
paid to do their duty. With centralisation,abuses
crept
be
bad immediatelym si o o
nkdnort
end at head
himself
wouldquarters,
be andat
once the s
b personper.
whe
ded. To his mind a centralisation of this kind pos-
ressed much beauty, and formed one of the most im-
portant principles in the Government plan. Another
great advantage was the the establishment of Normal
schools, because by their aid they would be enabled to
do away with that obnoxious class to which he
had reerred, who, without requisite knowledge,
pretend to teach the children of the poor ;
and in their place they would have men
with young blood in their veins, anxious for the work
and determined to perform it thoroughly, and not half.
They would get rid of the half stupid, lame, bliud, and
frequently immoral old men and Women, who had set
themselves up as teachers.—(-fear.) Besides, they
would know, if they discharged their duties properly,
that their old age would be spent in comfort. Much
had been urged against the plan which the Government
had proposed for the support of the schoolmasters when
they relinquished that employment ; but it was most
important that a teacher should know that he would
not be allowed to die from starvation when his
faculties failed him. Then again, he consi-
dered that instead of the whole scheme enabling the
Government to tyrannise over the people, that it would
have a directly contrary effect, and would place a great
deal more power in the hands of the people.(Cheers.)
The highest class would at the proper time receive their
due reward as teachers, whilst the second class pupils
would become important public functionaries. Thus, in-
stead of Government situations being bestowed upon those
who had no claim to the gratitude of their country, they
would be given to those who had earned a right to hold them.
It was, as he had said, a very important matter that the
teachers of this country should take their proper position,
as he considered the teacher was more entitled to
respect than the warrior whose conquests over
foreign nations brought great advantages to this country.
The profession of the schcolneaster was higher than the
minister of religion, because the success of the subse-
Tient labour of the minister depended much upon the
superstructure raised for him to work upon by the
schoolmaster. In every point of view he saw great
beauty in this scheme of education proposed by the
Government. Another important point was, than an
educated people were more easily governed than an igno-
rant people. With education, one might appeal to a
man's senses, to his intellect, and to his moral
feelings ; but without e 'ucation one could not
appeal to him, save through the influence of mere
phi sical power. Corporal punishment would be
the way they could teach him to do his duty,
But by education one might appeal to his cultivated
faculties, and through them, possibly, soften and re-
etaitn. They should then see none of those extraordi-
nary proceeding; such as took place some thirty years
ago in the Midland Counties, where men associated and
went about in mobs to break machinery—those mar-
vellous instruments by which they were now supported
—as they thought it would interfere with their indivi-
dual labour—instead of now looking upon them as they
did, as the most inapOrtant advantages possessed by this
country. Within his own experience he knew at the
same period, that serving men in England would not
go into the service of a man who kept a thrash-
ing machine, because they said it took away their
labour, and the labour of the neighbourhood. At the
same time they could not get a man in Scotland to go to a
situation where there was not a thrashing machine—the
one class of men, he regretted to say, sunk in ignorance,
and the other, he was proud to say, having the means of
education which he was desirous that every man in Eng
land should possess. It was this that gave Scotchmen
the power of managing business, whilst the labouring
men in England and Ireland were compelled to be slaves,
not that they had less power, but because they had less
knowledge. A singular proof of this was to be found in
last week's Examiner :

portion of the money, proposed to be advanced by the
Government, would go to the Established Church. It
was right that such should be the case. Zeal aid acti-
vity would secure the largest share. The Government
were assailed on all sides by petitions got up again:
a plan, in carrying out which they deserved the
support of the whole of the community, especially of
those who were bound, from all previous experience, to
support them, but who now opposed them. Mr. Taylor
then described the narrow-minded views entertained by
the Church of England in former years, and contrasted
them with the liberality of opinion now generally ex-
pressed by that church, and abandoned by the old ad-
vocates of toleration, and concluded amidst loud cheers.
Mr. STACEY spoke merely in approbation of the
scheme of Government, and was delighted to see Mr.
Taylor at his old work of labouring for the amelioration
of the civil and religious condition of mankind.—(Hear.)
Mr. B. S. PHILLIPS, a gentleman of the Church per-
suasion, rejoiced in advocating the measure of Govern-
ment, and spoke of the unbounded liberality of those
who were at the head of that religion in educating the
poor.

Mr. W. LAWRENCE said that if the Government
had consented to leave the whole in the hands of the
dissenters, not one word would have been heard of this
opposition. He then commented upon the good ten-
dency of the measure in Every respect.
Dr. LYNCH was agreeably surprised and delighted at
seeing so (inc a field day for the support of education,
and so little chance for those who opposed it. He con-
sidered that great praise was due to her Majesty's Mi-
nisters for propounding so noble a pl in for providing,
amidst the unexampled difficulties which surrounded
them, the means of a sound moral education for the
childr, n of all classes of the community, without respect
to creed, sect, or party.—(Hear' hear.) They pursued
the proper course to ensure the happiness and to elevate
the condition of the labouring classes. The long and
exaggerated sentences which they heard about interfer-
ence, tyranny, poison, were mere bugbears, mere poetic
hyperboli, calculated only to frighten children.—(flear,
and laughter.) The present means of teaching the
children of the poor, and even of the middle classes,
were most defective. Why should a broken down butcher,
or baker, find a refuge in the character of schoolmas-
ter? Why should the dishonest insolvent be encouraged
to turn teacher of children upon the failure of his other
experiments, and cheat both parent and child with im-
punity ? That tremendous evil would be corrected by
the inspection, without which it was absurd to attempt
to carry out any proper system of education. There
was no intention to churchify or to proselytise the ris-
ing generation. On the contrary, the only effect or de-
sire was to place them in the road to truth and virtue,
and to make them useful members of society, whether
Protestants or Roman Catholics.—(Hear.) In Prussia
there were three millions of children annually taught by
the State. America was still more liberal. In Prussia
the commercial classes were taught English, French,
German,,mathematics, physics, history. and geography ;
and the education of the poorer classes was proportion-
ably enlightened. The statistics of education submitted
to the Court reproved their neglect. In despotic Austria
only 34,5001. were' expended in forty millions of popu-
lation. The Government had taken the first step in the
right direction. They would impart to all the elements
of education which had at the present time become a
necessity, without cramming them with knowledge
only calculated to make our poor discontented with their
condition in life. Arkwright, Watt, llunter, Faraday,
Cuvier, Haydn, Herschel, and a thousand others who
had risen from the lower ranks to eminence by perse-
verance, and who had left by their discoveries in science
an imperishable name, and made mankinl their de)tors,
were self taught, or had only the rudiments of education.
They were only taught to read and to write. Genius
accomplished the rest.—(Hear, hear.) He gloried to
see Mr. Richard Taylor, in his advanced years, witness
the triumph of the principles which that enlightened'',
veteran had from the earliest period of his life advo-
cated.—(Cheers.) Ile gloried, too, to see a Jew rise in
the Court of Common Council, as a member of that body,
and an instance of the increasing liberality of the cit.zens
of London, to deliver sentiments which did honour to the
head and to the heart of their new acquisition.—(Cheers.)
Mr. WIRE said that all arguments used in favour of
the Gov( rament measure were grossly fallacious, and all
the statistical details were just as fallacious. He con-
demned the interference of the State as not only wholly
unnecessary, but as calculated to strike a blow at the
independence of the people about whose education the
Government never threw away a thought until they had
educated themselves.—(Hear, hear.) It was the object
i,f the Government not to make the people religious, bat
to keep them in subjection. Mr. Wire, in comparing
the population of other countries with those of England,
insisted that this country was more intelligent than any
other on the face of the earth. He deprecated the idea
of giving to Government functionaries such a super-
visicn as the inspectors were to have, and of their
establishing an indefinite influence and patronage, and
he contended that the whole plan was part and parcel of
the atrocious system of centralisaticn which was now
unfortunately so prevalent.

" It is reported on good authority that a fishing-smack,
having been successful in catching fish on the South coast,
and sending it up the country, the people from the interior
came down, seized the vessel, took the nets out of her, and
made a bonfire of them, alleging that if she continued to
catch fish at such a rate, there would be none for next year.
Forethought is not a common Irish habit; they seldom ex-
tend their views far beyond the present ; and the care for
the next years' fish, and choice of present famine rather than
trench on it, was the most unlucky and thoroughly Irish
commencement of prudence that the mind of man could have
conceived." The Court of Common Council met yesterday, and
It was probable that whilst he was addressing the coon - after a lengthened discussion upon the Health of Towns
cil, that there were hundreds of thousands rotting in their Bill,
gaols who, had the Government in years past faithfully Mr. BENNOCH then rose and explained that, by a mis-
done its duty, would have been gaining an honest liveli-
take the Court, and not the "debate," was adjourned at
hood, adding to their comforts and respectability, and the last meeting of the Council. Under these circum-
stances, he might go over the ground he had already
increasing the wealth of the nation. It was indeed a
traversed ; but he should not avail himself of that pie-
lamentable thought, that much of this arose from the
opposition of those who entertained strong religious feel- vilege, and should merely content himself by moving the
legs on the matter. He could not conceive anything resumption of the debate. It was necessary to make
more extraordinary. They had all kinds of benevolent this explanation, in order that those who were
and religious institutions; they had ministers in all not present at the last meeting might know
parts of the globe,—and each of those so- exactly how the matter stood. He trusted, how-
cieties had his support according to his means— ever, that no gentleman who had addressed
but to give a tract to a child, or a bible to a man, with- the Court on the subject would do so on this occasion—
out affording them the means of understanding them, (Hear, hear ; and oh, oh) —as the adjournment of
t was a gross insult ; it was as bad as binding a man's the Court, and not the " debate," was simply an acci-
eyes and bidding him behold the glory and beauty of dental circumstance, as the person who proposed it was
the universe.—(Hear.) He trusted that education favourable to the motion.
would be taken as the basis of' all endeavours to hu-
Mr. WHITE seconded the motion, which was put by
manise and Christianise the whole country, and that the Recorder, and carried.
every Englishman would feel that it was a part of his Mr. DE JERSEY rose to oppose the motion. He said
birthright to be educated. It was a melancholy thing during the time he had held a seat in that Court, he had
to think that religious diff.Tences should fetter thought ; opposed many of the sentiments enunciated by Mr.
Wire; but he confessed he agreed with him in his views
but he confidently trusted that that Court would unani-
mously declare its opinion that no child within these realms with respect to the scheme of education, which the
vGo-
should
be without mental enlightenment as a means to vernment had proposed. It had been said with respect
to many corporate bodies, that they interfered with mat-
moral and physical improvement. That was the first
motion he had submitted to the Court, and perhaps he
tars with which they were not called upon to trouble them-
might not have discharged his task so well as others selves, whilst they neglected their own affairs—they
more experienc-d would have done.—(Hear, hear.) mixed themselves up in political matters, and
He had only to add his gratitude for the patience. and became as a matter of course political hinges. He,
kindness with which they had listened to him. He therefore, thought the Corporation had stepped out
concluded by proposing the first clause of his motion, of its way in this discussion. lie fully admitted
and leaving the remainder of it to he dealt with as the the necessity of education; but scarcely two men
council might think fit ; and resumed his seat amidstcould be found to agree as to the best mode of carrying
general cheering. ,it out. If the Hon. Gentleman who moved the adop-
Mr. T. WHITE seconded the motion. Ignorance was,
tion of the resolution, wished to know what the Cor-
in his belief, the most fertile source of crime. The poration had done for education, he might find it in
awful history of prisons proved that indisputably, or their deeds—as they had voted large sums, year after
252,000 persons who were cenamitted to prison in the year, for the promotion of education, and not excluding
space of ten years, 229,000 were uninstructed, 1,085 had Roman Catholics and Dissenters from a participation in
gone beyond the elementary degree, and 22,000 could the funds. That man who wished to do away with the
merely read and write. It was said that such a fact local management of schools was no friend to civil and
religious liberty. The resolution, which was avowedly
showed the ignorance of the vicious. He contended that
it proved the viciousness of ignorance. The backward-
in favour of the Government plan, asked them to come
nese of England in educating to a decision " that education in Great Britain and Ire-
grace to the country, and he hailed the Government land was lamentably deficient ;" but there were "many
good and true " men, who considered that the systems
system as peculiarly calculated to remedy the alarming
evils resulting from such neglect. of education taught in this country were not deficient.
Mr. PEWTRESS said, that if Mr. Bennoch happened —(Hear, hear.) He wished the two countries had been
to be longer acquainted with the court, he would
It
separated in the resolution, because the peo; le of
found it to be unnecessary to give so long a
Ireland, owing to their distressed condition, were not
lecture upon education—he would have known that so susceptible of education as the people of this country,
the numerous motions made in it for the promo- as they were " torpid and apathetic." Mr. Bennoch
tion of educatien, had been supported most vigo- quoted France, America, Prussia, and Belgium as coun-
rousi y and that its members were upon all occasions tries in which Government schemes of education had
anxious to have the deficiency supplied. He could not,
been most successful. With respect to France, a gentle-
however, agree in the opinion that the deficiency was as man named Nortley stated that about 700,000 children
great as had been represented. All experience had were receiving primary instruction, which he found to
shown that the grossest exaggerations had been made, be worthless and deficient in morality, and that the
In fact education existed nearly in proportion to the schoolmasters were far from skilled in their profession.
extent of the population.—(Hear, hear.) If gentlemen In America the education was a national thing—a de-
would take the trouble to enquire they would find that mocratic system of education—which was similar to the
numbers of schools were adapted to the accommodation system which this Government proposed to adopt, but
of more children than attended them. It might be nevertheless America upheld slavery—that he supposed
taken as a general rule that parents wished to have their was one of the distinguishing features of the Government
children educated. What then was the reason that
plan.—(Oh ! oh !) America upheld a distinction be-
their schools were not crowded ? Why because of the tween black and white, and yet they were told to
poverty which existed. The poor were unable to put look to America as an example of the success of
clothes on their children suitable to attendance at school. a Government system of education. They should, how-
The rate of wages was so low that even food could not ever, look to the result. Then the mover objected
be supplied. That such was the case in England as well to the voluntary system. Why, what had it done
es in Ireland there could be no doubt, and it was the Look at the tens of thousands—he might say the mil-
-1 duty of the Government to effect, if possible, an alteration lions who had been educated and were now being edu-
in the labour market, as infinitely better calculated to cated by voluntary aid! All the great measures which
benefit the population than their system of education, had been adopted in this country were indebted to vo-
An improvement in that respect would comprehend the luntarism. The Corn-laws which were once upheld b
the House of Commons, were abrogated through they
education of children. There was another important
volluinr.taßtymetixoceratiodnesnoifedintdhiavitduh
aelLdid; he was in favour
effect to be produced by leaving it to the people to educate
themselves. He meant the preservation of their inde-
pendence.—(llear, hear.) That independence which of the voluntary system, conjoined ;silk aid from the
State.
t aMt et... DE JERSEY could point to numberless instances
sprung from the voluntary principle ought to be
cherished by every Government. In fact, a little more
justice and little less charity were requisite in the treat- in which voluntary exertions had accomplished
anent of the poor. Independence, which was the founds- re,ults. Why, the Bible and Missionary Societies
tion of all our enjoyments, was perilled by the interfer- done more for education at home and abroad than the
ence of the Government. Government could do, with all its rnachinery,in the next
Deputy STEVENS was thankful for the educational half century. From the official report of a gentleman
measure of the Government, and considered that the with respect to the state of the prisoners confined
voluntary principle would not sustain the least injury in Parkhurst, he found this result stated with respect to
by its operation. He disapproved of the proposition to 900 prisoners ; that one might be apt to imagine that
out of that number there would not be more than 100
go up to the Queen. A privilege to be exercised upon
rare occasions, and could not be necessary at a time who had received any education, but what would they
when Government were evidently doing all they could say if the very reverse was the ease, and that not more
than thirty had not received any education, and that the
petition to the Houses of Parliament in
le r the benefit of the people • but he should most will-
rest had—the great porportion of them in Sunday
ingly advocate a
support of the measure which Government had brought
schools. That all this crime was solely owing to igno-
rance, was in his (Mr. de Jersey's) opinion a fallacy.
forward. Then, was, education to be compulsory or not ? Mr.
Ben. noc. h s resolution might be taken both ways. To
Mr. BOWER contended in favour of the Government
make it compulsory,. would be monstrous. Why, the Dor-
measure, and said that so much poverty would not be
in existence, if there were not an overflow of ignorance;
se.shire labourer with Bs. or 9s. a week, who had half a-
liberal
and that the more a min was enlightened the more
&eon children, would tell them that he could not afford to
easily did he shako off all the prejudices b; which mind
se;da‘ffnec:ed under despotic authority. He hoped the send them to school, as they must go to work as soon as
present Adnaii!istrationp would be supported in their
Mr. R. 7they cou'd pick up stones in the fiehig. Poverty was at
vanities.'
appliedueAu l d b1:u:: it the root of all this and they must feed and clothe the
appropriation of funds, which might under other
said in the
tmhperenortws
oottnoribir,iehn,
tat:
shie:nr , e
Cheerio
peor, before they Could think of educating them. Let
them begin at the beginning, and not adopt laws which
ri:isiescuthteion introo fn :
oa
lir orof otherG
guildhall,
remembered when Lord J. Russ,;ll
pos.-ible., could not by any pos,ibility be carried out. It was
soon as
tin forward
":3;;;leoshx3:.esartretngoil proceededtinee(mol us
themselves t'vnliae
warm!
the
tla os not justice to offer a pour man education for
systernr
approvedveryov ev reur his children, when he could not send them to school.
could
,ei ns
State
ec
aosthaerfachta,
immensenot compulsory,
propt i
ohne
utdl;atifwhiitls"t'earne
Bill, by which the voluntary Principlethe
would be ~,k„,. for instance, %anted scholars, whilst in London he had
into the manner in which the mone nwruld he 'uncle endeavoured to get scholars for a school in his neigh-
men of first-rate qualifications. Ile 6 expended, by bourhood, but he had not succeeded. Something in the
Corporation of London, which was trusteddistinguished that the shape of inducement was required ; but if the Dorset-
Corporation•
love of civil and religious liberty, and which nave for. its shire labourer could not send his children to school, the
to give of Re funds to aid the education of Peoer fsfiled I Government,tt, would not hesitate to tax him for the edu-
to
all cation of thers • tl
rel,gions, wou'd not hesitate in supporting thepAdotat was not the justice which the
mini. people of th' •
stration in so benevolent an effort to serve the humbler not bed is couetry had a right to expect. There was
classes. An objection had hem taken that the greate had not
et yof Dissenters throu h h t h
a soh
001, and g out t e coun ry w o
they had done far more for educe-

tion than the Church, who, finding their system failing,
now sought the aid of the State ; but Dr. Hook was of
opinion that the Church should educate the children of
its members. He denied the correctness of the doctrine,
that "if education was good for one, it was good for &l."
Why, where would they stop'?—(A voice, "Nowhere at
all.") Would they carry the higher branches of educa-
tion to the plough tail ? because, if the principle were
eadl lume
autsi
ot
u.b e
Tphl aecyeedoounld anno
te
drawual
a li footingneo
fwith
respectadmitted,
dt
o mareation.—(Cheers.) It was a most dangerous doctrire.
when so many prejudices prevailed as there did up: n the
question of education, it would be almost impossible to
carry out one general scheme ; and if the Dissenters did
not avail themselves of it, they would be taxed for its
support. The members of the Church, and not the
people, would be benefited by it. The
greatChur mass o
cheompfltahened that the buttresses which supported
it were being removed one by one ; but, in his opinion,
this scheme would add another to the fabric end
strengthen it. The speaker then referred to the poor-
law, but he was called to order, and some remarks, of a
rather personal nature, followed, between several of the
stepei hers.
Mr. LAWRENCE who had rather hastily exclaimed
"Question ! Q irstion !.' claimed a right to do so when
he thought a speaker had said enough, and commenced
trespassing on the time of the Council. In the House of
Commons, the cry of " Question " frequently set led the
question.—(Laughter.)
Another GENTLEMAN observed that those in favour of
the proposition must submit to such observations if they
thought proper to introduce such glaring motions.
After some little acrimony,
Mr. DE JERSEY proceeded to say that despotism was
prevented by local influence, arid that the Government
acted improperly when it sought to monopolise those
local interests. Ile was opposed to any system of
education which would prevent men, as the Government
scheme would, from being independent.
Mr. ANDERTON said the question before them was
whether they did or dirt not agree in the scheme of
e document—it
whhdo o
aeducation proposed by the Government. Now he con-
fessed he was much surprised that any opposition had
come from the gentleman who had just sat down, as at
all seasons and on every opportunity be had strenuously
advocated the education of the people. He had even
solicited their aid for schools with which he was con-
nected ; but now they found him doing all he could
to destroy the fabric he had assisted to raise.—
(Hear, hear.) There never was greater fallacy
in the world than this uttered by him—that the pro-
posed plan would destroy the principle of voluntary sub-
scriptions for the maintenance of schools, because the
object of the Government was tb aid and assist these
schools, not solely to maintain them;—(Hear, hear.)
Why, the Lord Mayor and the Aiderthen, and, in fict,
all of them, had been frequently called uppn to aid by
subscriptions sat:eels whose fuedS were inadequate' to
maintain them; in' -fact it was Tat yesterday that the
Lord Mayor attended a sermon in St. Sepulchre's, which
was preached in aid of a school in that parish, which
educated about 100 children, but which, from removals
and other causes, had got 1201. in debt. They all knew
the great exertions Mr. Wire had made on behalf of
education, and that he took greet interest in a school in
his neighbourhood, that he was the schoolmaster, and, in
fact, a father to the children.—(Roars of laughter.) This
school was supported on the voluntary principle ; but if
the funds :ell off, what objection could he have to apply
to the Government and say " The school is in want of
funds. I can educate more children. Will you give me
funds to accomplish so desirable an object ?"—(LLar,
hear.) To talk of education destroying the indepen-
dence of man was absurd. In his opinion education
made men independent.—(Hear, hear.) Give the slave
education and he becomes a free and independent man.—
(Hear,chi
reeauri.
a) r
sThesue
dI Ihoyn
thGentlemanmwe
na was a
uh,ohue t
he
erefer
to
nsatidbee that
n
interrupted by
Mr.
authorisedanmightbe
yetit agreed uoedtto. It
materially changed before it was adopted. It had even
been changed five times since first issued.
Mr. ANDERTON said Mr. Wire had opposed the
Church, but now he found the Church becoming more
liberal, he turned and said, " No; we will have nothing
to do with you. This is a scheme supported by the
Church, and what is supported by the Church cannot be
wou
good, and therefore we will have nothing to do with it." But if
the
Church
lwould have
hadve opposedfavoured thei
tw
plan,e n
roe
wasdoubt
thethe
Dissenters
objectionable power of the Government? "The Corn-
inivee of the Schools are to have the power of dismiss-
ing the master." Surely, there could' be no objection to
that. They were also empowered to select the books,
and the mode of discipline to be adopted. Why, what
more could be required ?—(Hear, hear.) "He would
have no authority to dieteee what should be done in the
management of the school, and would not be allowed to
offer his advice, except wished to do so," by the School
Committee. What honest Dissenter could object to
that? No honest Dissenter could.—(Hear, hear, and
cheers ) If they were sincere in their desire to see the
people educated, they would not oppose one of the
greatest blessings ever proposed by a Gevernment.—
(Hear, hear.) Mr. De Jersey said in his statement, that
they had room for 400 children; but that they could not
get the requisite number to attend. But this might
arise from various circumstances. Perhaps the masters
were unable to teach them; that was one great failing,
as a great proportion of the masters in these schools
wanted teaching as much as the scholars. In 1834
the report of the British and Foreign Sebes!
Society stated that 150,000 children were then growing
up in London without education ; and that`'ithin a
radius of a quarter of a mile. In the neighbourhood of
Barbican, there was a population of 18.000, out of whom
the number of children attending day tchools did not
exceed 300.—(Hear.) 'This was in the city of London ;
and the voluntary sytem had not been able to keep pace
with the number of children who stood in need of educe,.
tion. A meeting was held in the hall, under the.auspices of
Alderman Johnson, in order to raise 5001. for a school ;
after it an application was made to the Court to defray
the expenses, or that they might not be taken out of the
fund collected, and Mr. De Jersey was in favour of that
motion.—He hoped that they would pass an unanimous
vote in favour of the Government plan. The Govern-
ment would not be thought to do their duty if they
flinched from carrying it out.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. Cavil said, when he was told that there were
150,000 children in London without education, he would
not be a barrier altogether to the plan of the Govern-
m-nt. It was the duty of a paternal Government to
educate her children, but he was opposed to any system
of education which partook of a compulsory character;
he did not, therefore, decidedly object to the scheme.
There were, however, several details which might be
materially improved.—(Hear, hear.) He was glad to
find the Government earnest at last with respect to the
education of the people.—(Hear, hear.) In his opinion
the voluntary system was inadequate to educate the
children of this country as they ought to be educated.—
(Hear, hear.) A great deal had been done in some dis-
tricts; but, speaking generally, he considered that
the voluntary system had proved a failure, and
that some aid should be received from the State.
especially as the greater proportion of these schools (and
he had considerable experience in them) were not sup-
ported as they ought to be, and therefore no taxation
would be more palatable than one which was raised for
educating the juvenile mind. Besides the Church of
England and the Dissenters, there were a liege number
of children who belonged to neither the one or the
other, who should be induced, as much as possible, to
avail themselves of the education which would be afforded
to them.

Mr. PRENDEBGAST considered that the Government
would be happy to avail themselves of any suggestions
from any quarter, which could render the system they
were about to carry out more tifectual ; and with that
view they had, no doubt, so extemively circulated the
minute which had been agreed to by the Council. It
certainly did not partake of a bigoted or sectarian
character. For every sixpence to be given by the
Government one shilling must be raised by voluntary
subscriptions ; and no persons could receive it for
schools with which they were connected unless they had
given their shillings—(Hear)—and the Government, in-
stead of wishing to take the power from the people in
this matter, had put the whole power in their hands,
thus showing that they had the highest confidence in
the voluntary principle. Mr. De Jersey, and others who
opposed the Government plan, had not had the hardi-
hood to propose a better plan, but they said they would
one day be able to accomplish all that was required,
althoue,h they admitted that as yet the voluntary prin-
ciple had failed. But how much crime, which
might bs btayed, would occur in the interim ?
The members of the Established Church had come
forward in the most handsome manner, and those
who opposed the system which the Church
supported, seemed to do so on this ground—that the
Church could save more shillings than they could, and
therefore they would have nothing to do with. it.—(Hear.) •
Mr. Baines's argument that the Government Inspec-
tors would exercise a kind of despotism over the pupils
and the teacher, and combine tog-ether to prevent the
teacher from obtaining a situation elsewhere if he had
the misfortune to lose his situation, was the most mon-
strous he ever heard. Why they had no power to dis-
miss, and it was unlikely that they would concert
together to deprive a monitor of his 101. a year, or for
the purpose of crushing a t. ocher because he would not
I succumb to them.--(Hear, hear.) Mr. Baines' book was
the worst he had ever read.—(Chcers.) He had been a
teacher in a Sunday-school, and he found that what
was taught one Sunday was forgotten by the
children by the
C. heers)—
next—or that in fact they were more
ignorant—(
thus showing the importarce of
day schools in connexion with them. He was afraid that
the young people confined in Newgate were but a sample
of the great body of uneducated children in this country.
He had just returned from the circuit, and had found
that those who were marked in the calendar as reading
but imperfectly, were, for all purposes, as uninstructed
as if tney had received no education at all. The Ge-
vernment wanted to ohtain good schoolmasters, end to
put a stop to the nonsezi:se taught in many of the school
.As a proof of ignorance amongst persons moving in a
iesgher sphere of society, he could state that out of eight
e
conchtuasters who cam, to him as IL deputation en some
business, two could nut' write. He was not one of those
who oonsidered that the Government had propounded
this scheme in order to help their fortunes at the cl, c
Lion, which was so close at hand ; but that they had
Brought it forward for the sole purpose of benefiting the
people -- (Hear.)
Mr. AsittensT consideml that the E-tablished Church
hod ever taken a most reprehensible part against tha
education of the people. Those in favour of civil and
religious liberty would be as desirous that Atheists
should enjoy their opinions without molestation; but it
the Minters and the Legislature were of that way of
M
thinking, and appointed ae istrates to dispense the laws
of a similar opinion, would they think tl-at such a
Governmeut was fit to, be intrusted with the manage-
ment of the education of the whole people? Certainly.
not. Yet the Government were to be intrusted with im-
mense patronage, which it was .evident they
would abuse. What had past experience proved?