The Sun.
London, England, 1812-02-04 00:00:00

BUSHEY PARK.

Mr. ORDE asked whether the correspondence
which had taken place between
.the Surveyor of the
Woods and Forests and his Royal Highness the
Duke of Clarence, respecting the cutting down some
trees: in Bushey Park, was to be publfshed ?
_

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
should inquire, and inform the Hou. Gentleman
to-morrow. -

HON. MAWR-GENERAL COLE.

The SPEAKER called- to the Honourable. Major,
General Cole, in his_ place, to communicate to the
Gallant General the Thanks of the -House for his
condu,a in the battle of Albuera.

Major-General COLE then stood up in his place.
Tire SPEAKER then, in a very impressive manner,
and in language the most dignified, addressed the
Major-General.—After the long absence, be observ-
ed, which the Major=General had experienced in
the military service of ,his country, he was happy in
greeting his return by calling to mind t hose memo-
rable events, ti hid), in modern times,' characterizt.d
the armies of the United_Empire, and in the course
of -which he had borne so distinguished-a part. In the
annals of the military history, the plains of- Maida
would never be forgotten, where British valour had
e+.er been so eminently conspicuous—where the
gillatitry anil bravery of the whole of the forces ;
had raised the reputation of the country InA
routed the (to >ps of Franc-, and humbled the
pride of a powerful enemy. It
,would never be for-
gotten that in that great contest he bore the 'brui)t,
and by his skill and gallantry decided the issue of
the battle. Pursuing the same career of honour-
able conduEl,, he had since entitled himself to the
gratitude and admiration of his country ; for in the
Bard-loughs battle of Albuera, the test:mony of the
Commander-in-Chid had added to those claims, by
stating, " that to Major-General Cole's experienced
judgment and to his distinguished valour, the
triumphs of that ,day were completed," though
wounded in the onset, he was foremost In the battles
and foremost amongst the viaories., These deeds
of glory had not only recommended him to the oo-
tice and gratitude of his country, but also to the gra-
titude of the House, and they had accordinciy,
voted hits their Thanks, &c. which the Speaker
read.

Major-General CoLe expressed his gratitude for
the high honour just conferred. It was au honour
'which did not exclusively belong to him, ftr the
victory of that day was to be attributed to the g tl-
lantry of the troops which he had the good fortune
and the honour to command. He also tequesteki

STATE OF IRELemb.
Lord MORPETH rose for lite purpose or bringing
forward the motion of which be h;ld gwen no ice,
respecting the State of Ireland, The Noble Lora
observed, that it must b.' in he recolleMitin Of many
Gentlemen, that a Noble Relation of his was.anxioni
to,bring the subject before the EtoUse, but in const=.
quence of an unfortunate tied severe domestic cala-
mity, was prevented. In bringing the subject under
the consideration of the I-Luse, it was some consolas
Lion to him to reflect, that the state 6- Ireland was
so. notorious, it would he unnecessary for hirii to en-
ter into any minute detailOf that situation. It re
quired not the aid of rhetoric to idpiet it, for is was
written in charadeis too plain to be mistaken by
the most callqus, or to be misrepresented by tioi
most perverse aliong the enemies to the trAtquility
'of Ireland. With respea to the motion, he should
apply the observations which he had to make, prin-
cipally to the disabilities long complaineci.of,- which
the Roman Catholics labour under, abstaining front
entering into any discusssion upon the legality or
illegality of the steps taken under the Convention
Act. He should not question, the policy va high
dictated those measures, nor reprobate the ex-,
tension arid cootinuation of them. It would be
'sufficient for him to state, that the uncpalified •
and determined opposition manifested "by the
Government to the Roman Catholics proceedings,
had produced in them a feeling of discontent and
dissatisfadion. In the. view which he took of
the. subject, it equally affected the Roman' Ca-
(bac' and the Protestant interests; for the Pro:
testants of that kingdom conceived their own se- •
curity best consulted in advising the concess
Sion of the: claims of so large a portion of their -
fellow-subjects. In calling the recollection of the
House to the various discussions which had already •
taken place, he should not repeat the arguments-of
the friends of the Ronan Catholics ; he should rut
travel back to the councils of the Lateran and of
Trent ; nor should he think it requisite to' inquiro
into the. policy adopted by King William and Gt,ieett
Une, which perhaps were ju•tilied by the necessity
of the case, but which had imposed on them a sort
of degrading servitude. Since that period, liow-
eVer, nittreh had been done for their relief within
'he last forty years, but the disabilities, ,so fir as.
they embrace the principles of exclusion, still re
maintd. These disabilities could not be COUSI de! rd
-in any other light than in that •of reproach, and as
on the part of the Government, 'a wanton infliction
of disgrace on nearly the whole population of Ire-
land. He knew it had been contended, tat the-
removal of them would not affel the great ruajo.,
rity, for thatithe private soldier or sailor would not
feel his situation bettered
.by the elevation of his
officer to, the highest rank in the army or navy, by
this resumption by the nobility of the hereditary
seats tn Parliament, or the preferment of them ro
the highest offices in the State. That such do,:-
trines should be held forth, was, in his opinion,
contrary to the general Snd best
were
of huium
nature. To-the removal there two classes of
objections stated : that the principle was dangerou:s-
and ought not to be recogeised ; and the second
class -objelit to the time, in which the subject is
brought forward.
.To these objections he -would
reply, by desiring the House to look at the potedas
tion of Ireland, in respect to the Catholics, and to.
the statements of their leaders, w ho. deny t hat t heir
object is to build a Catholic hierarchy on the Pro-
testant establishment. When the Union was el-
feded, it was on the understanding that the inten-
'ion of the Government was to give relief 3 but how
had those eXpedations been realized ? Toe Noble
Lord then passed an eulogium on the exertions of
-Mr. Fox and Mr: Grattan in the Catholic Causes.
and then reverted to the second objection, as to
time, conceiving that under the present situation of
affairs on the Continent, with a population so large
as that of Ireland, the House ought to grasp the
present moment, . in opposition to the objections
thus urged, and by a spontaneous measure atone for
the series of injustice and oppression which, sine
the-connectioo of England with Ireland, had dis-
graced'the former country. The adoption of 6es
motion would add a grace to the measure, w hiclr
would secure the affections of a noble end gtono 0,9
hearted people.. He did not wish to press the House
to an unqualified acquiescence with ail the claims
of the Roman Catholics, but to-enter, • inquire inset,
and deliberate upon those claimst Tui, was Nit
the time to procrastinate, vt• hen the Whole of the
Powers of Europe -were witliin the cuntroul of an
enemy who had conducted the battles on tht

1..1i:i~-

intent with an energy hitherto unparalieled. it
had been stated, " that the conduct of the Oat Lo,
lies in urging their,claims was a stepping stone try
their ambition." What was the conduct of the
Catholics in answer to this reproach ?-I:hey en-
dured it with patience—they evinced. their loyalty
and affection by matrning the navy and by rectLiit-
'Mg the army. Was it right to proceed With seve-
rity against such persons—to .suspect their
to disappoint their hopes-3(nd to hold them forth
to their fellow-subjecis as engaged in a dark con.
conspiracy to endanger the satety of, the Suite
thought tie Was. justified in asserting that Govern-
ment had produced that, state of things of « high
they now complained, but which loudly-demattei
explanation. The Noble Lord concluded will
moving as a Resolution—
" Tnat the House do resolve itself into a Com-
mittee of the whole House, to take into conitdere-
lion the present State of Ireland."
The Marquis of TAVISTOCIi seconded the moti,:: •

a

rgl

support of it.
Sir gorete NtcHoet. observed, that the speech of
the Noble Lord related chiefly to the state of the
Catholic clergy. It was a question that had been
frequently discassed. He trusted he should stand
excused for catering into an examination of the
merits of the question; from the particular situation
which he 'had the honour to hold, if he did
rot, it might be deeMed in him a dereliction of
duty. -Irk stating his opinions on the merits of
the question, he desired chose. opinions to- be-taken
as of an individual member, not at all connected
with, or even knowing, the sentiments of Minis-
ters. To come at a right 'conclusion, it would be
necessary to separate it from general topics. Much
had been said in former debates, as to the natural
rights and constitutional privileges of the Catholics—
of their emancipation ; as if they were in a state of
slavery;—as if they were iroa state of persecution.
Much had been said too on the blesaings of Civil
and Religious" Liberty. He trusted, howeyer, that
there was hardly an intelligent person who did not
abhor and detest intolerance—who did not hold the
blessings of Civil 'and Religious Liberty in the
greatest respect. It was not necessary to cease to
be a Christian in order to become a bigot ; but if
those who valued civil and religious liberty were to
be liable to the imputation of having raised the cry
of" the Church is in danger," and of " no Popery,"
as an artful attempt to run away with the natural
rights of one class of his Majesty's subje&s, and for
the purposes of persecution and intolerance, then,
the grounds for this motion were laid. The guess. .
tion ought to be stated faitly and openly. ' If the
concessions demanded were granted, what security
to the Constitution would ensue ? But it had been
stated, that they merely asked their natural rights.
It was too late in the day to drag back the discus-
sion to- natural rights, because those rights were best
estimated in the preservation of social order • and it
would not be contended by the most zealous for
these alleged rights, that the Cotistitution had been
abridged more than was necessary for the order of
civil society. If the advocates for the Catholics
wished to extend their rights, the question ought
to be so stated ; the Constitution must be ale
tered to satisfy them, for they had their share
of it. The preservation of the Constitution, as
settled at the Revoletion, was to be looked to,
and it had been deemed expedient- to exclude
Catholics, as a measpre of security to the State.
The Legislature had then found it necessary, for.
411.
'the essential of the Constitution was the preser-
vation of the Established Church. Indeed, Gentle-
" men who "were now most eager for those natural
rights, called that epoch iu our 'history, " the glori-
ous Revolution," and that Revolution provided those
safeguards for our Civil and Religious Liberties. Ex-
perience had taught our ancestors that two sorts of
Religion in the State were not congenial to its safety.
It remained with the advocates of the Catholics to
shew the necessity therefore for altering this state
of things. What was now asked ?—A full partici-
pation of political power, because the Catholic had
full enjoyment o'f his religious opinions and protec-
tion of property. The Right Honourable and Learn-
ed Gentleman then commented on the degree of in-
fluence which the Priests of the Catholic persuasion
exercise over their fl. ck—the blind submission of
that flock to their pastors—the influence, dangerous
as it was, of a &reign poWer over their spiritual con-
cerns, especially when that power is at present un-
der the dominion of France. This was the opinion,
he observed, of the best friends ot the'Catholics, and
he instanced the opinion of the ChanCellor of Ox-
ford in his letter to Lord Fingal, to shevv that the ins
fltience was dangerous; an opinion which was pro-
mulgated by the " bigotted champions of intoler-
ance and persecution," but by the leader of the Ca-
tholic advocates. He deprecated the idea, that tak-
ing the sense of Parliament was the way to allay the
irritation, or that keeping alive the expectancy of
concessions which the public interests would not al-
low, was the best mode of securing the tranquility
of the Sate. The concessions, if granted, wouldein•
-stead of producing the effed desired, engender dis-
content and disunion in the two Governtrients, on
account of the difference in religious opinions. It
was the very swore of man, and so would remain
until that uature was altered. The subjed of these
. political differences was, as the Noble Lord had
try emphatically said, " the stepping stone to am-
Lition." The Catholics, he believed, did not want
a Catholic Secretary of State or a Catholic Chancel-
lor ; the main body were firmly attached to the
united empire. The number thatwould be benefit-
ed
by the removal of the disabilities would be few
,in comparison with the great. body. Concessions
had been, made and still demanded. The average
of the Protestant subjects was, he observed, as 5 to
1, and they were not disposed to part with their
rights and privileges. In examining the question,
it wouid be necessary to look to future consequences,
if the removal of the restrictions was to be granted.
In tee House•ot Commons one hundred Members
were returned, and it was probable, that if Catho-
lics were admitted to seats in Parliament, every
2vleMber 'hoar Ireland would be a -Cetholic. The
silence of the British nation was not to be taken as
a silent acquiescence in the justice of the claims,
but as a conviction that they would not attend-to
them ; for if the people entertained a different
opinion, the table of the House would be crowded
with petitions. The Right Hon. and Learned
Gentleman at great length enforced the necessity
for, refusing to accede to the motion, in the ap-
prehension which he entertained of the danger aris-
ing from concession, in the view which be had pre-
piously taken. The first change to be wrought was
eu,alteration in the turbulence of tae Catholics.--
'fire physical force of the people of that persuasion
in Ireland was under the centroul of the Priesthood,
a circumstance _which might be taken advantage of
for the worst of purposes. Besides, it was the na-
ture of those who professed different religions, to
• eye one another with jealousy ; they might as well
exped that two stars would keep their course in the
same sphere. Alter some complimentary remarks
upon the conduse which.the Legislature had hither-
to adopted towards the Catholics, and the attention
with wnleh they had always considered their claims,
he expressed a hope, that neither they nor their ad-
vocates would suppose that Parbement was to be in-
, titnidased Into compliance by repeated and.frequent
applications, but would look to a cool and deliberate
exercise of judgment as their best dependence, and
most efiedual advance to success. 'lf .they adopted,
conduct of this sort, .their claims, art far as was

consistent with
tile safety of the State, WOuld be
granted almost by acclamation. But let them strew
what securities they would give,_ let thetti sate
when they would stop in their demands, and al-
low for those points on which the Protestants
would insist-a Protestant Throne, the security-of
their civil establishments and religious liberties.
Mr. CANNING said, that having the misfortune
to be one of those persons, whom.the Noble Lord
who opened the debate marked out to the peculiar
disapprobation of the House and of the Country ;
:having the misfortune to be one of those who could
not go the entire length of granting the claims of
unlimited concession, being, determined against,
voting for such claim, but being determined much
more against sanctioning by his vole th 4 principle
recommended by his Right lion, and Learned
Friend; a principle which would go to shutthe door
against the hopes of the Catholics, and though not
expressly contended 'for, yet consequentially and
necessarily to leadto the re-enactment of those pe-

nal statutes which had once disgraced our legisla-
tion,--being unfortunately one of those persons,
thus circumstanced,•he wished to trespass for some
time on the attention of the House, while-he stated
his candid sentiments upon this great question. He
could not avoid regretting deeply that it was
brought forward now ; he regretted it from an opi-
nion, which the speech of his Right Hon. Friend
was not calculated to diminish, that it must now be
discussed with a degree of passion and animosity un-
becoming the occasion; but at the same time he
lamented its introduction, he was somewhat con-

soled by the reflection, that it, had fallen into the

he hands of his Noble Friend, who;ie principles and
:alerts so well befitted him for the task, and who

had discharged' that task in a manner so agieeable to
the opinions of his friends, so flattering to himself,
and so deserving of the favour, the approbation,
and the admiration of the House of Commons.—
Agreeing with his Noble Friend in some points,
and differing from him in others, he should state
his agreement with all the warmth- H hich naturally
proceeded from respect and esteem ; and lie hoped
that he should state the topics in which he dif-
fered from him, with that tempei and modera-
tion which should mark his regret, while it main-
tained his principles. His. Noble Friend bad set out
with stating, that some transactions which occurred
in the coarse of the last summer, had influenced
him to bring forward the motion then under their
consideration ; but if that motion was intended to
embrace the condua of the. Government, and to pro-
nounce upon its interference as an interference con-
trary to law, he (Mr. C.) was prepared to give it a
complete negative. At the same time he was not.
prepared to state, a, priori, that the Aet to which
reference had been so often made, was intended to
operate against such meetings as those of the Cathol-
lic Committee; but being advised that it was so by
the Law Officers of the Crown, he thought that Go-
vernment would have taken upcin. themvelves a most
grievous responsibility, if, in defiance:of such adv ice,
they stood aloof from the proceedings, and shut
their ears against the representations of those who
watched over the law, and who complained of its
infringement and violation. With regard to the

transaalions that followed this intimation to. the
vernment ; so far from calling for (tie motion, they
rendered it inexpedient, for the amount of all was
that the matter was in a- state of legal process.—,
He could not think that any thing had happened
from the beginning of those difference,: up to the
present moment which called upon the House to
set to Ireland the fearful example of an interference .
upon the part of the Legislative Authority with the
natural and proper course of the judicial law. He
should oppose the-proposition for going into a Corn-
mittee when that was the object, or when it could
be mistaken for the object of the Legislature. He
would allow that the bare fact of having acted ac-
cording to law, dial not go to prove a proper purpose
in the minds of the persons so conducting them-
selves; on the contrary, he saw many cases in
which the bore letter of the law was lamentably
deficient as a moral rule or a political precept ; but
would they call for a Committee- to examine in-
to the motives
.of Government ? or, if they did
call, for such a Committee, would it be possi-
ble to avoid introducing another party, as well
as the Government, the paity of the Catho-
lics themselves, whose conduct could not be
contemplated without some reprehension.? (Hear!)
—He was aware that in coming to the dis-
cussion of this question, in which the feelings and
passions of men were so warmly interested, without
adopting in some measures the violence of a par-

tizan, was appearing to great disadvantage, and
embarking in a cause without tiny great likelihood of
pleasing either party ; but such a disadvantage he
was not afraid to meet. If he knew his own heart,

, -
he came to the present questicin uninfluenced -by
such motives as either power or popularity could sug-
gest ; he 'sought not the triumph of either party,
bat the tranquility, the security, and the happiness
of the whole. Much had been Said of the under..
standing entered into at the time of the Union. An
understanding there certainly was, though not ex-
pressed by the Legislature; that-whenever the CAI--
tholic claiMs were bruught forward in that House,
tliey should be candidly, distinctly, and dispassion-
ately discussed. 'The Catholics were given to un-
derstand, that though under their own separate and
resident Legislalion, surrounded with the local pas-
sions and prejudices that unfortunately existed in
their own country, the subject of their requests
could not be coolly deliberated : yet here, where
local feelings did not aet, and where the preju-
dices against ,them were comparatively temperate,
they might reasonably e-xpea that sort of discus-
sion IA hick alone could lead to a rational and en.
lightened decision ; but now that that time was ar-
rived, that the union was accomplished, and the
question was open to a cool.and impartial considera-
tion, his Right Hon. Friend had insinuated princi-
ples which must shut the door against their expec-
tations. He agreed with his Noble Friend, as to
the great importance of the subjeQ, but lie thought
his Noble Friend did not agree with him as to the,
magnitude of the difficultirs that encompassedit-;
but whatever difficulties might be entertained ai to
the view which his Noble Friend had taken of it,

bis Right Honourable Friend had done much to sim-
plify the question, and to remove the difficulties
that surrounded it. If, according to him, the only
consideration was, whether they should return to
former disabilities, or whether they should go on,
he could have no doubt as to the side upon which
he should vote, Indeed, when he !oohed to the

state In Which Ireland nOw stodgily Wild a great poi
pulation, grouting daily in wealth atid intelligence,
aspiting from what they had, already tasted of free-
dorri; tb wish for more; and-proceeding in a nato
ral gradation, from the accomplishment of much, to
the desire and the ambitidn of greater. When he
looked to this situation, a situation to Which they
were raised from a condition in which no, class of
Teeple had. ever
.before been
_placedeinek Christian._
cottony, he could not agree that it was wise to ex-
clude them from the rile of the Constitution.
Since the period.of their humiliation, they had dis-
claimed many tenets once imputed to them; or per-
haps lie should not have reprobated so strongly as he
was inclined to do, the esotalic doctrine of his Right
Hon. Friend. ' His Right Hon. Frieed had said, the
more the Catholic was restricted, the more quiet he
became. This probably was true, but it was a truth
which might 'lead them too far. It seemed to ap-
proach the old adage, that "dead men tell no
tales," for it must be granted, that the man in whom
the social.paisiOns were extinguished, was likely to
be quiet enough. But did his Right Honourable
Friend really think that such a course was poll. ic ?.
Did he think that, having removed the chain from
the Catholic, we should leave a link behind to re-
mind him that he once was fettered ? that hat ing
broken off the bonds with which we was once sty-
rounded, we should leave a brand behind, ao de-
note that. he was not always free Was this to le-
gislate in the spirit of wisdom, or was it not rather
to adopt a headlong and precipitate. siolence, dis-
graceful to the charader, as it must be injurious to
the interests of the country ? But were they to
suppose that circumstances had changed the nature
of the disabilities under which the • Catholics for-
merly laboured,'and that that which was once so es-
sentially necessary to, the security of the Stage,
should now be cancelled as being useless ? For • his
part, be could not admit such an apology for the
past. He could not conceive any state of society
in which such restrietions could be justified. He
could not approve of such means of producing
quiet. He could not give his voice for propping
up a state by dissociating htimati nature se com-
pletely, and violating all the principles of
Government, both in a political and moral view.
Excuses might, certainly, have existed then, which
did not exist now, for those who would defend, not
the system, but the fragments of the system, not
the machine, but the remnants of a machine broken-
and scattered in those latter times by the-growing
liberalities of the human -mind. The onus lay on
those who recommended such perverse industry, to
shew upon what principle it was necessary to shew
to future ages what that system was. His Right
Hon.. Friend had argued the question as if it was
solely a religious one, but he should argue it, he it his
duty to argue it, in that House upon a political ground
alone. His Right Hon. Friend bad said. that lie
would not go into the dotitine of Transubstantiation,
or the ads,ration of Saints, or other mysteriops points,
But why did he not go into them ? Because he
took them for granted; and argued on them without
submitting to the inconvenience of proving them.—
When the Legislature seleeled -those dotyines, it
was only as a means of marking a particular seat
against whom they thought proper to dire& their
provisions. The Parliament of Great Britain could
never adopt the idea of becoming Controversionists;
they never could haVe intended to argue with Priests
and Bishops upon the doEtrines of their faith. He
kneW that some Gentlemen were fond of .talking of '
the sufferings of Ireland in remote and almost unre-
membered periods; of its being treated as a conquer-
ed country from time immemorial, and injured and
oppressed in centuries long past ; but he would not
go so far back to count its wrongs, any more than he
woold look back to the Norman Conquest, with
respect to this country,_ for the purpose of COM- •
plaining of the Curfew. But part.of the way he must-
go back, to find the beginning of the restrictions now
under consideration. What then was the state of
Europe after the Reformation had taken. place
There arose at that time two sects more influenced
by the zeal of sectarism than by the love of. coun-
try. The Catholics and the Protestants were at-
tached each to , their own persuasion, without re- ,
gard to those sacred ties which bind us to bur na-
tive clitnates, and the Catholics of this nation were
more allied to the Catholics of any other nation.
than to their Protestant fellow subjects who were
children of the same soil. Under those circum-
stances, regulations might be necessary which should
exist in no at her case. In what country of Europe
were there not religious struggles, though such
struggles should not be considered common to all
other times, as had been stated, nor arising out of
any cause inseparable from our nature. Of those
who contended that they were, he would ask, did
history bear them out ? Was it true that the 14
Cantons of Switzerland, consisting of Catholics,
and Protestants, and other D.ssenters, had come
to a generous resolution to bury all religious ani-
mosities ? arid; was it true that front that time
they went on with perfect political agreement ?
His Right Pon. Friend might say, that though this
might have been the case with stnall.States, there
was a difficulty when they came to make the appli-
cation of it to great ones. The discussion of that
principle would lead into minute inquiry, and the
instance he had already quoted must go against the
generality of the argument. But la hat it the same
agreement had existed in another country ? What
if it 'had existed in France from the period of. the
edict of Nantz, down to its subsequent tevocation ?
Let them look to the wor.~ of that fathous edict,
they would find it declaring, that for the purposd of
stifling all coinplaintS, all subjects, of whatever re-
ligion, should be capable or holding offices without
taking any other oath than to be faithful to the King.
—They would "find that Henry IV. proceeded (for
he was speak ieg of no less a man) to provide for
the filling of all offices in the state without
regard to the distillations of seat, or to the pre-
judices of religious jealousy. He did not say
that they were bound to follow the example of
France. That admission would, come rather oddly
after the new philosophy. But when they had "be-
fore them the opinion of the greatest monarch of.
that nation, in times when he had not barely to cal-
culate typal possible resistance, but to encounter
open opposition when they had-his opinion in such
circumstances, that the best course, Or 'mode of.
proceeding, was conciliation : it was impossible to
despise such an authority ; and. looking trot:lt-his
judgment to the praCtical consequences of his plaa,.
it was still more impossible to despise that measure,'
which placed Sully at the head blithe Council, and

abiit &laotriiierk, etc& ne, a A ,take, io share tit
t - '-i` ' "ti ' ' • 'l'
gidri'et of the field. It was itroarsible not to ap=
prove of such condnee in din Monarch;. whi:6
splendid Court wag the envy and the terror of all
turope, at a moment *hen the world seemed td
labour under a religious dotage, and when he him
self aVas under the influenCe of an intriguing miss:.
tress. , Who, if he was asked whether he would
esvieharealive in that greted,epoCh; of in arty subse-
quent epoch of that cetuntry, would not teadily art
eagerly, and without he tatioreplabe his finger: on the
former ? Our government had !odor:tits Policy at alt.
times in lendingassiStance to the Reformation; that a..;
sistance led to the interference of the Catholics id .-
our affairs, and. every thing which was done against
' the Protestants on the Continent, e aS visited in penal
statutes upon the Catholics of Ireland at beirne. , Fie.
did not recommend this system ; he did not approki
of it ; from the period of the revocation of the edid
of Nantz, and when the Revolution in this country
had raised her . freedom on its perfeetion, her re:
straints were doubled 'upon Ireland, and every: sOe..-
ceeding Legislature seemed to vie with the whet' id
, ,a contest to [peke the situation ofireland more slavisti
and &graded; and, begging pardon to Iris Right-
Honoureble Friend, tranquilizing too.—Looking to .•
the year iiiiie, when the edict of Nantz was revolt--
ed, we saw our shores covered with a flying Clergy ;
.—flying from persecution. What ,Clergy ? Pro, •
testant—flying from what persecution ? Frotai,
the persecution of Catholic France'! And.
this we saw visited upon Ireland. In a cede
wry after, we again beheld our shows co-
vered
with a flying Clergy, flying froth persectitiorr. .'
What Clergy ? Catholic. Flying from what peise-
' cdtion ? From the persecution of Atheistical France!.
And this we were again called upon to avenge upon
the Catholic population of Ireland. But were they I
so blind as to confound the cases? Were they sq. -1
blind as to suppose that the same remedy was appli-
cable . r
to each, if indeed it was-justifiable in either ? 1
The mitigation of the Popery laws which afterwards
.'
took place was a warning of A change, though his
Right Hon. Friend was not in a situation to lift his
warning voice against it. He line v that there were .!
some who represented the Irish Catholics as hav-
ing obtained all the privileges hitherto granted
to them under circumstances not highly ho-
nourable -:
co the liberality of this country, and in
times when they were rather exaeled from our .
weakness than from our justice. It might be true
to a certain degree, that in 1782 dee situation its
which we stood facilitated the concessions then , I
made to Ireland; but he believed it was equally tlu * :
that those were not concessions to the Irish Catho- i
lic. The Protestant, upon his own part, came a,k-
'Mg boons from England, of which he did not deal
an equal portion to his Catholic brethren. It was . t
true that free trade and other privileges were grant-
ed to the Irish cornmunity, but it was not lair to ,
.1.
infer from thence, that the concessions to the este , I
tholics were not granted voluntarily and freely.—
Since
1f94, nothing material had been granted to
a
them up to the present period; but could any one - !'
maintain that what remained to be granted should
.he withheld, *unless' he was possessed of the same -..' .
skill in thescience of-numbers with his Right Hon. t
Friend, who had said, that if the Catholics were' few,
it was not worth while to grant their claims, and if
many, it waslbot safe. Jt was the opinion of many,
that a temperate discussion could not be lead till the
-Onion had taken place. That tinic,wes now aerived,
'but as if obstacles were to be thrown in the way of
the argument, the Catholics, in a late instance, had
been ill adfaised enough to put forward, among the
nuThifier &their clairoS, the repeal of the- Uniori-e.
a repeal, of the union (ekclaimed Mr Canning)--a •
dissolution of the'-4-ave kingdoms—a dissolution of
the keptarchies. -But if the proposition was not et-
ficient to the purposes of good, it was efficient to the
purposes of evil. In defeteace to the Honourable,
Gentleman who had given. notice of the motien for
that repeal, that if Parliaturset were.eyen to enter-
tain it, and if he by his eloquence was to prevail in. •
carrying it, the situation of the Catholics with re-
speel to the objeets of their ambition would be ma-,
terially worse. It would be injurious to the Catho- !:
tic interests, and it would be high creaser) against 1
spareate Ireland. If a man were to set about devis.. l-
ing an impediment to the Catholic cause, lie could
not succeed better than by knitting those two de- -
mends together. But with respeet to the wishes of
the Catholics for an enlargement of the priVileges
they at present possessed,- he had always considered -
them rational. Would any man who had the right
to vote, not wish in time for the right to sit ? Was
it to be believed that Parliament had granted hie,
the one without a view to the ultimate granting of
the other ? Was it to be believed that they would '
have opened to them the Bar, if they intended eter-
nally -7
to shut up from them the avenues to the
Bench ? Was it to be believed e hat they would have -
permitted them to acquire property, and to ad in all
the subordinate parts of the political system, if they ,
intended, with .his -Right Hunourable and Learned '
Uriend, eternally to exclude than from office ? They ,
werereferted to the Revolution in France, and no
man was more inclined to refer to it than he, lot
examples that ought to be avoided- and- detested.—. I
Let them not shut their eyes to the state of the body
politic of France, which had tendered it susceptible
to the poison of revolution. Let them not forget
that the existence of unpopular and unjust distindie
ons, which without the .policy of the Popery Code
to extinguish-the rising spirit from. that energy a' ,
at-lion-to-which it must have tended, exhibited prin.
ciples eqtially objectionable, If :he was te divide
the right-of voting from
_the right of silting, with- -
out any view to their ueitnate
,connection, he did -
'not know Whether he would not rather- give the '
higher privilege than refuse the lower; whether he r
would not rather give to peepie of such a high ' spie
tit, of such great powers of thirking, of such re.
sourees, of such energies and determinations, the.
right to sit in Parliament, than a right to return their
Membaes, with,an intention of shutting them out on
the-topmost round of their,ambition. But it, bed
been said that the great body,of the -people were not
interested ill-this. Qh ! . prOfound knowledge of - ,
humati nature, rifit tOtknow that the bare possibility '
of greatness called forth all the faculties of the mind,
and all the greatness of the charaCter ! To take the
Bar as an instance.--Was. it proper that filled with
Catholic lawyers of great abilities and influence over
the public mind, they should not be-admissible to , '
the Bench ? No man'admired more than he did
the profession of the law. -It hod given the cowry ,
its greatest legislators, and many of its proudest ar,,.
[laments i but supposing that profession to be dr

„
•:?raa t 1 t • d
b e, o mere et pursuit; vvoril not the
profesion be,ebanged ? would not every man in it he
changed ? They trove must look for war not merely
as a contingent evil, but as a permanent affiiaion,
as the very element in which we were ” to live and
move, and have our being." Many Catholics were
- inour army ;but w lid& we hoped-forthe best 'effeet
from their valotir Should we say, that in no state,
and under no circumstances,, would we recognise a
native Catholic Generil ? He hoped that they would
not come:to _such a tranquiliging vote. It would
rem as if they were afraid, in case of a Catholic
hancellor, or a Catholic General, that the Pope
Pod Buonaparte; putting their heads together, would
infi
!-lence them, on. behalf of the Cat holic Church,
against the Constitution. This might have been the
chase ini'imes when the geographer might have taken
e colours of the two religions for the &scrip-
_ i'i°olOf all Europe ; but Buonaparte had preferred '
to the
spirit above the love of sea, and looking '
° the tijap of Europe now, they would find that
same Buonaparte to be the eldest son of the Church,
with Protestant Saxony his ally,
,with Protestant .
Prussia at his. footstool, and Anti-Catholic Russia
t
-.rembling In his toils. But there was still one spot
in Which his tyranny was resisted, on the strong
ilt(i)ld of the Itlquisition.—ln Spain and Portugal, in
countries of the most bigiatted Papist,,: was•,
the
tr„: P,u,we.r of Buonaparte humbled, while we were
• -i-m,udog for the cause of Protestantism at home.
I.)fllr''Y we ought to feel, tither fighting. by the side
Ed "r Catholic allies; that there was some con-
. ence to be pliced in- our Catholic fellow 31111-
J:et' ; We should be sufficiently possessed of our
;uses to see the danger where it existed, and
-wot to fancy it where it was not to be found.—
e should not appear in the situation of men,
b ", amidst a mighty conflagration, seek for
baubles ; we should not, under the pressure of
Present danger, cry ."-fire" to the transactions of
two centuries ago: we should not stand upon the
b
of ancient- errors, . when the channels were
dried
P to calculate, in stupid amazement, the
taol-;,g;r of passing over. He thought the " onus pro-
laY upon the side of those, who, contrary to
• 'ea'on and experience, entertained such fears
Priestcratt. But, supposing soch a perverse fa-
dig• Y persuading in Buonaparte, and such a " mo-
efffiZccipiendi" in the Pope, was it likely\ that the
th e'r. would be a revolution more complete than all
roe,'lergY, Nobility and pOpulation had been able
-cc°Mplish ? The question divided itself into two
Parts:'-ilte will and the power. It Was true 'that
-e Catholic lead been once the general religion of
u"
f "3Pe, but he denied that any instance was to be
- to the history of modern Europe, in which
they• ihad attempted to erect a hierarchy on the ruins
tue Government under which they lived- 7--
con( should such a design enter into their
.13 ntemplation, how was - it to be opposed
► h.Tt„ reason, if it -was introduced for discussion
t"at House, and by force,' if force was ap-
led for its establishment. -Looking at the thumb
before .the distinctions 'of Catholic and Prostestant
-were known, they would find that in its primitive
ataite, and under the tyranny of the Caesars, no such
v;"Pt was made, but at present having placed
moral forces in their hands, we had stimulated
Cie' desire for higher.urch. As to the
,danger of the
of England he was unable to discover it.
N,1,11 of.
(alluding to the Church of England)
i'leh;lhough.ouised••in persecution, had wound it-
elf into the habits and affeetions of -the people,
Could, only be endangered from another quarter. It
11'd support itself, and continue secure in the love
andesteem of all who had the happiness to live un-
der its influence. Cemented by so much blood, pu-
rified by' so many martyrdoms, it was not to Ire.
overthrown by a few selaries of any descrip-
tion. Another obje&ion of his Right- Honour-
able Friend was, that the Catholics would re-
'use to pay tithes to the Protes'ant Clergy, or
rather that they would transfer them to their
frienbut he would refer his Right Honourable
d once more to the Ma of Nantes, the 25th
n'
i,cle of hich states. " that the persons privileg-
- Dy the State should pay tithes*to- the Clergy of
the Established Religion." Another danger appre-
hendedh was; that no securities would be given, the
eto having been refused,r for his part, he thought
that the yeti) mei/la-have been granted. It was
Eranted to Prussia by her subjeas, and should not
withheld by ours. He differed decidedly (tom
tu°se•Gentlemen who thought of conducing the
work of conciliation like a negociation between two
hostile poviers. That was not his notion of legis-
-1
ati'o• In his•opitiion, where the gift could be of •
f ered with safely, it should be offered, take it or
live 4 it who. would. To suppose, at this time of
rlaY, that every political establishment had not a
-„gbt and claim to secure- itself by all necessary
means, was a thing too absurd for refutation ; but
arguing on the principle, he did not Oink the
Ittlt)de plOposed was either just or beneficial. The
°'llatt Catholics had adjourned their late meeting
`o the next month, for the avowed purpose of pre-
Paring a petition to the Throne. • He thought they
were right in determining on such a petition. It
was natural, tor they had obtained every thing that
hitto ranted t the recomendation of the
4roneher and the comaplicated detail ms
that would be
necessary in the promotion of that great work, '
l'i°llld best proceed from the Government. There
Were other grounds that induced him to disapprove of
the present motion, ,and one of them was a ground
Which his Noble Friend had represented as render-
togit peculiarly eligible. He alluded to the present
'lrritation the effect of which would be to fnake men
I
°°k at the question less as a practical benefit than as
a trial of strength. It should be brought forward un-
der other circumstances, and the friendiof the mea-
-sure were wrong to interrupt, as it were, the ex-
Petecl grace. It was impossible for any one who
conversed with the various ranks of this community,
riot 'to see that they entertained -giant -prejudices
against the measure ; prejudices which time, and
.
• eroper, and. reason, could alone overcome. He
"Would have advised the Catholic Body not to apply
to the House, until they found how they were re-
ceived in another quarter. They were not yet,
however; deprived of the hope of success at least,
,they were not driven to the certainty of despair.-•;-•
-41 ad this been the case, he should-have expeEted that
they would have come for.var.:i in a tone of corn-
Plaint, a tone which was in itself a sort of consola-
tion and- revenge. But to that stroe they were Int,
driven, and therefore he wi,hed the present.
application had not been made. He was aware,
that a person who did not go to the ehfire length

.th I- ' I's'
e prejudices an ee Inge o °then, 94
else to !console himself than the consciousness or
doing 0011.. For his part; wishing'well to the Ca:
thblics, not as Catholics, but as a part 'bf flit com-
munity, he wished that the question was set at rest,
though not in the manner recommended by'his Ho-
nourable plend : not as th-eqieloiy of one part over
the othei-,*but as an arrangement for the good of the
kind= and constitution. He did not understand
ItePqoble Friend's view,of the Constitution ; he ap-
peared to iook upon it as if it were written In one
book, andao be read at one glance ; and alluded to
the Revolution, as if it had been manufaamed ; but
that was not the way in which he (Mr. C.) beheld
it : he looked upmi 'it as distinguished from that of
France•by an endeavour to create, but to establish 5
not by a passion for experimentaheing new theories,
but a desire to confirm the ancient venerable prac-
tices made and handed down to us even by our Ca;,
tholic ancestors. Ile did not like the pianre which
his Right Hon. Friend drew of it, but regarded it
on a larger and more extensive scale "Pendentemque
sinus; et vasta viste vocantern cm, uleum in grcemiunz."
He should hesitate long, if be thought that the vote
which, be was'about to give this night would tend in
any manner to further the purpci'Seof his Right Hen.
Friend ; but as he iought it- could have no such
• of opinion, that to vote in a dif-
ferent manner would not lead to any practical advan-
tage; for the reasons he had already stated, he must,
however reluaantly, oppose the motion.
Sir J. NICHOLL, in explanation, disavowed any
wish to re-enaa the restrictions from which the Ca-
tholics had already been relieved. So far was he from
entertaining any disposition of that nature, that were
such a proposition made, it would meet with his
decided opposition. Nor had he, as represented by.
the Right Honourable Gentleman, intimated any
convic=tion that the exclusion of the CatholiCs should
be perpetual ; and he really thought that, in his
original speech, he had sufficiently guarded himself
from such a misconception:'
Mr. CANNING, in explanation, admitted that the
Honobrable and Learned Gentleman had, with re-
sped to the first subject, sufficiently guarded himself
in words from the imputation of being favontable to
the re-enaameet of the restriaioneon the Catho-
lics ; but his argument certainly tended the other
way. He was happy, however, that the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman bad an opportunity afforded him
of distinctly disclaiming any such disposition. With
respect to the other point.
,he had certainly miscon-
ceived the Hon. and Learned Gent. through the
whole of his speech ; for he had decidedly under-
stood him to say, that in his opinion the time would
never-arrive for granting to the Catholics a partici-
pation in the rights of their fellow-subjeas.
Mr. HUTCHINSON, as he had been called upon in
so pointed a manner by the Right Hon. Gentleman,
would trespass upon the indulgence of -the House
for a few moments. This was not the first time in
which he had heard the Right Hon. Gentleman con-
clude_ a most brilliant display of eloquence by giving
a miserable bad vote. He had not more admired the
great talent which the Right Hon. Gentleman pos-
sessed, than the prostitution of that talent tot 'the
purpose of making bad and unfuuuded 'impressions.
loud cry of Order.
• The SPEAKER requested the Hon. Gentleman to
'abstain from using expressions of so strong a nature.
Mr. HUTCHINSON resumed. The Right ,Hon.
Gentleman had declared that the motion of "which
he (Mr. H.) had given notice, was one not to be
argued, but at once denied. The Right Hon..Gen-
tlemati, however, who was himself one of the Ad-
ministration which- formed an union with Ireland,
founded on promises, every one of which had been
violated, ought ndf to be his lecturer on such a sub-
jea. He felt he was discharging his duty to his
country, when he met with the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman's decided disapprobation. He contended
that the Irish Government had done every thing to
inflame and disaffea the Catholics. Their claims
Were just—they ought never to renounce thene;
and he was persuaded that there would be no safety
for the empire until they were accorded.
Mr. PEELE observed, that as the .objea of the
Catholics was the acquisition of political power, a
reference ought to be had to-their former conduct, to
se&how they had exercised power when in the pos-
: session of it. He had not heard any satistaaory ex-
planation of the real views of the Catholic Assem-
bly. It had been said that their object was to
prepare a petition ; but were the terms or the
prayer of that petition so difficult and so novel as to
require the meeting of Catholic Peers and sons of
Peers, ie order to frame it ? In his opinion, the
Irish Government bad no option, but were compelled
to enforce the law. 1-le thought the motion of the
Noble Lord injudicious, as the warmest: advocates
for the Catholic? claims would be justified in retusiog
to accede to the appointment of the proposer! Com-
mittee. Even Lord Grenville, in his letter to Lord
Fingal, had disapproved the presentation of a peti-
tion, the object of which was the appointment of a
Committee; and now the Noble Lord opposite miry-
ed for the appointment of a Committee without any
petition. This might nut be unjust to the Noble in-
dividual of whom he had spoken, for whom great al-
lowance might be made for change of opinion, but it
was unjust to those who concurred with that Noble
Lord to believe that a lapse of 2u months would make
such a difference in their sentiments. To grant the
Catholics all that they required, would be to place
them upon more than ar. eqvality with their Pi o-
testant brethren. One 'step of concession led in
another. If the Catholics were admitted' to two
branches of the Legislature, he wished to know
on what ground they could be refused access to the
third ? He begged to be understood, that in giving
his' vote on the present occasion, he by no means
pledged himself to
,any opinion on the
,Catholic
Clainis, but merely expressed his sense of the in-
expediency- of such a Counuittee.as that proposed.
Lord GEORGE GRENVILLE argued in -favour of
the mialion, and contended, that.the more frequently
the Catholic Claims were considered by Parliament,
the more fully would their justice be 'established.
Mr. HERBERT did nut impute any blame to the
Irish Government for their recent conduct ; but
would vote for the inquiry, as calculated to be pro-
ductive of much good.
Sir A. Pt GOTT controverted theopinion that this was not
a proper time tor conceding to the Catholics their claims.—
The Honourable and Learned Gentleman seemed to think,
that when the Irish should be educated-,.when they should
-be-condutied from ignorance to knowledge/ and from tur-
• bulence to order, that would be the time for such a conces-
, sion. For his part lie Mad no hope of living to see such a
, time; The R ht Ticatuarahte Gvatleinab,•who to such A

To rilciarft speech had tacked such a lame and
declaro that when prejudices were .ol'adued, end the
'question could be entered upon with a ge4.ral coneurree of
sentiments, that,in his opinion, would be.!:lie time for granting
to the CatbOlics.their claims. Of the arriwal of this periodhe
was as hopeless.as he was of that described by the Hots. Gent,ln his opinion the concession should be immediate. If Miitimrs
would say that fifteen days after the present day the question
might be considered with more propriety, he would notubjed'
to the delay ; but t.lts they had not yet said. From the year
iSon the period of the Union, the Catholics had been out
of the pale of the Legislature. For this exclusion, lea-
sons well known- to every one had been- urged. The only
consolation which every good subject had, amidst his dis:
tress for the unhappy situation of his Majesty, was,. that
the consideration of the grievances of Ireland was thereby
opened to Parliament, and that the functions of the Legisla.:
ture,which had been so long suspended, need no longer be so,
for it was quiteimposSible, and indeed would be as absurd as
false, to supiluse that the August Personage who represent-
ed his. Majesty diA not feel Ininself free to listen to the ad—.
vice of Parliament on that as well as on any Other subject.
What was the history of Catholic Committees? Front the
year 1757, when the Irish Catholics had the miserable pri.
vilege of reclaiming an acre of bog land, and of having halt
an acre of arable land fora potatoe-garden, provided they
kept at a proper distance from any town, they had invaria-
bly, and with the best cited, made their application To Go:.
vermnent through the medium of Com:nt t tees.. Sir. Arthur
Pigott then went -into a detailed legal argument to sheW that
an erroneous construction had been put upon the Convention
Ad, and concluded with giving his support to the motion.

. Mr. W. POLE said, that if he had not recolleoled
what passed last year, 'he should have been surpris-
ed at the course this debate had taken. He should
have beeti surprised, that, upon a question, which
certainly was brought forwa,td as an attack upon the
Irish Government, those Gentlemen the-most ac-
quainted with the state of Ireland, those great
Leaders who-sat on the other side, should have-so:
long remained silent. He expected that the Right.
Hon. and Learned Gen3,lerben opposite to him
would have come forward early in the debate to
prefer those charges which it was understood they
intended to make against the Irish Government.
They had, however, thought proper to pursue an-
other course, and -the' Learned Gentleman -who had
just sat down had been pat forward, and his pan-
tomime had had the effect intended, it had drawn
him (Mr. Pole) forward, and -compelled him to ad-
dress the House before the expected charges were
made, and therefore placed him in the -disadvan-
tageous situation of speakingebefore those by whom '
he expected to be attacked, and to whom he wished
to have replied. Feeling, however, that the cause
which he had to support was a good one, and that
the Irish Government had only performed its duty
in eating as it had done, he felt the less regret at the
heaiy task which had devolved upon him.
shmild commence the observations which he had to
submit to the 'House by stating, that he considered
the motion, notwithstanding the manner in which
it bad been brought forward by the Noble Lord,
(a manner which was undoubtedly highly creditable
to him), and notwithstanding the backwardness of
the Hon. Gentlemen opposite him, he should, he-
said, consider the motion as a direct attack upon the
condua of the Irish Government. The question
naturally divided itself into two distils& parts, viz:
the intended censure upon the condua of the Irish
Gdvernment, and the consideration of the Catholic
Question. In defending the condu& of the Irish
Government, he must observe, that during the
whole course of last summer, every posssiele effort,
every faCtious art was used. to mislead the people of
Ireland, and of this country also, by confounding
what was .called the ,Catholic Question, with the
measures which the Lord Lieutenant had been corn-
pell2d to adopt to maintain the public tranquility.
With the view which the Lord Lieutenant and his
advisers took of the situation of the state of Ireland,
and of the measures which it was necessary'to adopt,
the question of the Catholic Claims bad nothing to
do ; the Lord Lieutenant thought that his duty con-
sisted in maintaining the laws, of the land, in en-
forcing obedience to those laws e and in taking care
that equal justice was administered to all classes of his
Majesty's subjeas over whom he was appointed.
to-preside; and he assured the House, that the Lord
Lieutenant and his advisers found they had qulte,
enough Ito -do in performing those duties, evithbot
entering into any speculations about altering the
Constitution. The Lord Lieutenant and his ads
visers felt that it was not their dety to enter into
the merits of the Catholic Question they thought
it was not proper for them to give any opinionupon
that stabjea, and they felt also that it was
,their duty take care that no impediment bhould be
thrown in the way of any of his Majesty's subjects;
of whatever class or denomination, who wished to
bring forward eny, claims they might have, or to pe-
tition for the redress of any grievance under which
they might labour, provided it was-done in a legal_
and constitutional manner. It Was necessary for
him to make this assertion distinctly, and to press it
strongly upon the attention of the House, because
no effort had been spared, no art had been left un-
employed to impress a belief upon the minds of the
people of both countries, that the object of the
Irish Government was, not to inforce obedience to
the laws, not to maintain public tranquility, but to
throw impediments in the way of the Catholics, and
to prevent them from claiming what they stated to
be theierights, or stating what they considered to be
their grievances. Before he proceeded to the con.
• sideration of that part of the condo& of the Irish
Government which more immediately claimed 'the
attention of the Hou,se, he must beg leave to allude
very shortly to what passed last Session. The
House could not have forgotten the circular letter
which had been issued in his name, about which -so
much had been said, and upon which so tnuch wit
hAd been employed-. The letter certainly had been
issued in his name, but it was framed and drawn up
by the Law Officers of the Crown.- He was far
from wishing to throw off any responsibility which
belonged to him for any part which he had taken in
that transaction, but he thought it a little hard that
an endeavour should be. made for bad purposes to
turn that letter into ridicule, and to represent it as
the hasty composition of a very arrogant man. This
letter was very meets discussed last year' in that.
House ; be remembered the motion of the Right
Honourable end Learned Gentleman opposite to him
upon the subject. That Right Honourable and
Learned Gentleman, in bringing forward his mo-
tion, had taken three grounds of argument against
the measure ; but he had not attempted to combat
the legality of the conduct adopted by the'lrish Gs.
vermuent. The first objeetion taken by the Right
Honourable and Learned Gentleman was, that it
,was imprudent in the Irish Government to proceed
upon the law at the time and under the circum-
stances that they had acted upon it. • The second
objeaion was, that if the Irish Government felt it
absolutely necessary to act upon the law, they ought

- p- .t .
to gave proceeded by way of prociattion, inste;
of issuing the circular letter alluded to.
Objealion was, that the A&. of
,Parliarpent only ati
tached upon those who had attended the meetings
described, and voted, and but that, in thecir;•
CUlar letter, tie Magistrates were called upon to ar-
rest; and holdto bail those who attended, Or voted;
r aelea, thei e. were the Objettions taken by the
Right tronourable, and Learned Gentleman', but
never.was asserted by him, or by' atiy. One. individual
who spoke upon the subjeel,, that the constru6tiori
which the Irish Government had put the AA
of Parli irnent was'not the true and legal construe:•
tion.—[Here some Gentlemen on the oppoSite side
of the House manifested ,some diserri troun Mr:
Pug's siat6areot.]---Mr,.
,batd; he vas Coo.:

vinced that he was correct in his assertion,

And he had no doubt that he ihonid be abfe tci

convince lite House, and even the Right Hon.
and Learned Gentleman, thst his recolle<<iioti
upon the subjea was accurate. The Right Hon.
and Learned Gentleman had, as he before stated;
concluded that the_ circular letter was wrong in Oa
sertingi that any person who atteeded Or Voted; or
acted at any of the. meetings alluded to; were guilty
of a tnisderneanoitr, becatase,, he Said,ain that case;.
any person whb aitande'd innocently; without
ing any 'alit in the business, or who even attended
for the, ptireOse of dispersing the Meeting, might be
i arrested and held d bail. That was ihe Objealiot
taken by the Right HOP. and Learned Gentleman
but ,he never had
,questiOned the legality Of the
Construaidn put upon the Conviititioa Aa, dr its
applicability to meetings of the deScripticin in ques-
tion. If he (Mr, Pole) %yds' wrong' in hig re cot
upon this aubjea;e'ir the Right Hcin. and
Gentled Gentleman had really doubted the legality
of the proceedings of the Irish Gdeernment, was
it not most strauge and uniccOentable that he• bad:
merely contented himself with moving for pape!s,
and that he had never btOught forwarl any specific
Motion against the Irish Government fur apling
gaily e was it not most strange and unaccountable,.
that if all the Gentlemen on the Other side theivght
that the Irish Government aled illegally upon that
occasion, that not one of the:ii had thought it nea
cessary to bring the matter before the HboSe,
though it sat for months after the discussion respect-
ing the circular letter. The question respecting the
claims of the Catholics was brought on after the
motion of the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman
relative to the conduct of the Irish Government ; if
the Gentlemen Oppesite thought that the Govern-
ment had a&ed illegally towards the Catholics,
surely upOri that occasion they would have men-
tioned it. He attended the House during the de-
bate upon the Catholic Question, though he took
no part in i 3, int- the purpose of defending the It isli
Government, if any attack hKI been made upon
them, but not one word respeaing the illegality of
the condo& of the Irish Government dropped trona
any one Gentleman on the Other side of the House.
But he' would mention one more circumstance;
which would put the matter out of all doubt :,an
Hon: Gentleman on the other side of the House
gave titmice, last Session, of a motion to repeal the
Convention Act ; he did not bring forward that me-
(ion ; and in stating his reason for not doing so,
he praised the Irish 'Government fur the leniency of
their condua, and said lie was glad to find that they
did not mean tit enforce the Convention Law. ats
(Mr. Pole) felt it his duty to set the Hen, Gr.
tleman right upon the subjea;and he expressly told
that Gentleman at the time, that the Irish Govern-
ment most certainly would enforce the Conventien
Act, if the circumstances of the daSe rendered it ne-
cessary. The Hon. Gentleman, however, did nor
faring forward his motion; Thus the 'matter stood
at the end of last Session. When, therefore, he re-
turned to Ireland at the conclusion of it, he had
every reason to believe that the conduct of the Irish
Government was fully approved of by that Houses
and they had no reason to suppose that an idea
was entertained by any one man that they had
acted in any shape or form whatever contrary tolthe-
law.—[We regret that the extreme length of the
preceding debate, at the lateness of the hour at which.
Mr. Pole spoke, renders it impossible to givethe
rtmander of his 'vary excellent speech in de-
tail.]—Mr.- Pole then proceeded to state, that
the Catholic Committee formed in 1793, was re-
vived in I nee and held its sittings in 181.0. The
assembly, it was knoivrt; was not sitialy lawful,
and this stated, it had been asked, if it was unlaw-
ful, why was it not put down earlier than it was 1,
To this the answer was, they were anxious to treat
the Catholic body With' the greatest lenity, and with
the utmost forbearance, and therefore, being less
stria' in enforcing the law than they would,have
otherwise been in a case where any Other class of
subjels was conderned. It was a mistake ata .sup-
pose the Convention AO was framed for any, par-
ticular sea. Had any other body proceeded so far,
it would-have been attempted to bring it to bear on
them. The Committee was suffered to go on for
some time, till it was found they had recourse to
every thing that could influence the public mind.
They had all the forms of aParliament. 'They had
their ComMitteea, their Sub ComMittees, their Coin-
mittees of Grievances, their private and public Re-
dressors, &c. &c. Their proceedings were such,
that•even- in their own opinion they went -too far,
and were afraid of the consequences. On one oc-
casion, one of the Members called out to a person
who was taking notice of their proceedings, " VVa
are going rather too fir, to take notice of that," to
which the person so addressed, replied, " I was
aware of that myself, and had already 'shut my
book." It was when they had it in contemplation
greatly to increase ai eir numbers that the Cir-
cular was issued. They had, however, been
censured, as having interposed at an improper
, time, at a time when they were about to become
more respeaable than ever. This, however, was
not the fad. Lord French and others,' the, most
resp
from
hese
se
mos
least
eytea.o:vtlnlteliatkieblolelealeiuerlcnt:cetioilnaritl.andfealiii.dttidi their
gly it .:Mausbody,csiot)eeyerse;:tl:lobai
stop,
s,agrilteedseso:fpiNttr\i,oaletialllrilrtial,eeien,treolteteCalitlivync:l:ii
acdtekisoocenteutdoi
yyd
per-
mitteds
itioual
had
The
a small body of the Committee to meet from
time to time; and from th s conduct it 'had been
said, that they had weakly abandoned a plan rash-
ly adopted, and that their conduct was marked -by
madness, folly, intemperance, and intoleranceee-
, The Right Honourable Gentlaman then proceeded
to describe the p, oceedings of Ile Irish' Catholics,