The Sun.
London, England, 1840-02-07 00:00:00

times referred to England held her naval superiority
without a rival—without a competitor::---(Cheers.)
The case was now altered ; for even France had held
out something like threats that she would contest the
dominion of the seas. The Minister of Marine in that
country had stated in•his last report that there was a
necessity to provide for three cases—first, for an imme-
diate state of war—(Cheers)—secondly, for an imme-
diate state of peace—(Cheers)—and, thirdly, for a na-
val depot.—(Hear, and cheers.) He did not wish to
treat this as a party question. But he could not forget
the time when the victories of Nelson and Wellington
gave protection and prosperity to the commerce of
Great Britain. We were called a nation of shop-
keepers in consequence of the taunts of Napoleon, but
• what would we be at the commencement of a war
if the efficiency of our navy was sacrificed to a paltry
economy ? He regretted that the resources of the
country were wasted in silly and ridiculous experiments,
such as the penny postage, which was so absurd that
the Noble Lord who introduced the measure said it
could not succeed ; and when he moved that the Bill
be read a third time, gave every reason that it, should
not pass. The change which had been made by the
reforming Government in the power and usefulness of
the East India Company, was not only the cause of
great loss to the revenue, but it had led to involving us
in those difficulties with China, which might give full
employment to the forty sail of the line. He ridiculed
the idea of young men being made good officers by ex-
perimental manoeuvres in the Tagus, and of the steam-
vessels superseding the renowned ships of war to which
England owecliher glory.—(Cheers.)
Lord MELBOURNE said that he really did not
expect so lengthened and large a debate upon the ques-
tion before the House. Their Lordships would there-
fore excuse him if he was not prepared to go into the
discussion. But there were some observations made by
the Noble Lord who spoke last but one, which he could
not allow to pass in silence. It was stated by that
Noble Lord, that in the recent times to which he re-
ferred, no attention had been paid to the subject of the
navy. The Noble Lord remarked that the diminution
of the naval force had taken place in time of perfect
peace, when the world enjoyed a tranquillity which
offered no prospect of interruption, and when the
minds of men were not prepared for any attempt
to contest with us the dominion of the seas.—(Hear.)
When were those times? What times did the Noble
Lord refer to ? He (Lord Melbourne) remembered
no such times—he declared that since the termination
of the French war he remembered no such times. Did
the Noble Earl refer to the Administration of the
Noble Duke in 1828 and 1829, when the Russians
were marching on Constantinople—did he mean to say
there was no danger in those times, when the Noble
Duke was only restrained from actively interfering in
the affairs of Europe, because he believed the Russians
would fail in that expedition ? Did the Noble Earl al-
lude to the year 1830, the terminative year of the Noble
Duke's Administration—the year in which the French,
contrary to every representation of that Noble Duke,
entered into an expedition against Africa, and which
was now regarded as one of the greatest dangers of this
period ? What period was it then that the Noble Eat)
had referred to in which these matters could be viewed
with indifference in consequence of the settled state of
Europe t He (Lord M.) confidently answered there
had been no such time. There had been no period
since the termination of the great wnr of the revolution,
in which it was not the duty of a statesman to attend
to the situation of the navy, and he confidently stated,
as far as he could understand the statement of his Noble
Friend, that there had been no period at which greater
attention had been paid to the subject, and greater at-
tempts to retrieve former errors, if errors they were,
than during the Administration of his Noble Friend,
who now presided over the affairs of the Admiralty. It
was very easy to make calculations of the strength of
the navy of Foreign Powers—it was very easy to point
out dangers in various quarters of the globe, and to say
there was not a sufficient guard in this place or that
place. Why it was impossible to have sufficient safe-
guard in every quarter and at every point.—(" Hear,"
from the Duke of Wellington.) With an empire so
extensive as ours was, and with the difficulties which
always would be arising, it was perfectly impossible, with
the finances and resources of any country to be always
in a state of preparation on every point. Risks and
hazards must be run somewhere, and some points must
be exposed to chance. The only course to be pursued was
to have as large a force as it was possible for the country
to maintain, and to dispose of that force with the greatest
skill, in order to give assistance in the easiest and readiest
manner to every quarter. - The Noble Lord had said
that the Russians were always ready. It would be
absurd for him (Lord Melbourne) to form any opinion
upon the merits of the war force of any power. It
was true such was the case with the Russian navy,
but he would not give any opinion on what would be
the merits of the Russian forces when employed. The
Noble Lord also said the French could man their fleet
with great ease, from having their sailors registered.
He (Lord Melbourne) knew that that was the case,
but he also very well knew what the opinion of persons
high in authority in France about their own navy and
the character of their own sailors was. He knew very
well that from the circumstance of the short time
during which their men served, and from their never
returning to the service, there were many persons in
that country who despaired of their navy ever reaching
' a great degree of efficiency. Therefore he could not
entertain the desponding notions which the Noble Earl
had attempted to inculcate upon the House upon this
subject. But the Noble Earl went further than that,
for he not only elevated the foreign service, but en-
deavoured to depreciate entirely his own service.—
(Hear.) He did not spare himself nor the officers
of his own grade and character, and he attacked the
skill and experience of those officers—he said they had
neither skill nor experience.
Earl of HARD WICKE—No, no.
Viscount MELBOURNE—You did say so ; you
said they had no experience compared to the foreign
service. _ _

Earl of H ARDWICKE—I beg your pardon. I
stated the officers had not at this time equal experience,
generally speaking, to the officers of the French navy.
The French navy have no more officers than are ne-
cessary to command their ships, and to be of service
ashore. They, therefore, come in rotation. Look at
your navy ; it is so large, and the order in Council
obliging an officer to serve six years before be can get
flag, therefore pushing the old officers forward, that
therefore your officers have not experience equal to the
French.
Viscount MELBOURNE observed that that was
what he stated the Noble Lord had said—that our
officers had not experience equal to the French, and the
Noble Earl had likewise attacked the spirit of those
officers, for he said that in consequence of the difficul-
ties they would have to undergo, the inferior situation
in which they would be placed, and the in-
feriority of their means, that he could not
help contemplating with apprehension the re-
sult of their services. He (Lord Melbourne) did
not believe that. He believed there was that sanguine
confidence among naval officers which had always dis-
tinguished the service, and which would always carry
them through. But the Noble Earl had attacked the
patriotic; zeal of the whole of the service, for he said if
there was war the officers would be unwilling to come
forward under the present Government—that they
would be unwilling to come forward to serve their coun-
try if that country should require their'service.
The Earl of HARDWICKE—No, no:
Viscount MELBOURNE—I understood the Noble
Earl to say so.
The Earl of HARDWICKE—No. Just allow me
to explain.
Viscount MELBOURNE said that sort of interrup-
tion was very irregular, and the Noble Earl had better
wait until he had finished.—(" Hear, hear," from the
Duke of Wellington.) The Noble Earl, as he under-
stood, stated that officers would be unwilling to come
forward to serve their country on account of the manner
in which his Noble Friend had dispensed the patronage
of the service, and referred to the circumstance of the
late appointment to the Governorship of Greenwich
Hospital. In that appointment he (Lord Melbourne)
begged leave to say he was as much responsible as his
Noble Friend—perhaps more so.—(Hear, bear, hear.)
From all he could learn of the state of the
navy, he did not wish to say anything respecting
the comparative merits or services of officers, but he
did not believe there was any individual who had a
greater claim to that piece of preferment, than the
officer who had been appointed. But, however that
might be, and however his Noble Friend might have
dispensed the patronage of the navy, he did not believe,
whatever feeling might prevail on that subject, or what-
ever dissatisfaction might be felt, it would, in cases of
difficulty or'danger, as the Noble Lord supposed, have
any effect on the feelings and spirit of the officers of
the profession; and with respect to their not feeling con-
fidence in themselves—with respect to their not feel-
ing that superiority over the enemy, which they
always had felt—the Noble Earl might express
his own feeling, perhaps he might not so feel
—(A laugh)—but he (Lord Melbourne) did believe
that the general feeling of the navy seas that which it
had always been, and that their spirit and courage
would never be found wanting, on any occasion upon
which they"might be called forward. The Noble Lord
had stated that he did not consider this a party
question. (Hear, hear.) He (Lord Melbourne)
could not think so. The Noble Earl had not treated
it in a spirit of impartiality. He (Lord Melbourne)
admitted it to be a question of the greatest import-
ance, well worthy the attention of that House and Q f
the Governn:ent ; and' though he could not participate
in the, apprehensions of the Noble Lord opposite, and
could not think there was at this present period any
greater apprehension of the disturbance of peace, or
that there was any call for greater military exertions,
yet it was at all times necessary to see that the navy was
in a fitting state of preparation, and that it bore some-
,thing in proportion to the navies of other powers ; and
that in times of peace we should keep our services in
proper order, so as to use them effectually in time of
war. He (Lord Melbourne) entirely admitted that
principle. His Noble Friend, he was sure, would be
' happy to receive any advice on this subject ; but he could