The Sun.
London, England, 1841-03-23 00:00:00

ONDON, TUESD Y, MARCH 23, 1841

T H E SUN,

gistratc; that they Lai endeavoured to obtain from the I
board of guardians a relaxation of the rule they made
with respect to giving nutr.ment in cases of destitution
and exhaustion. For six,weeks he continued entreating
them to alter the rule which directed that when the
surgeon ordered anything beyond the dietary which the
diet table contained, it was not to be given till the board
had sanctioned the prescription.—(Hear, hear.) So
that, in point of fact, if a medical man witnessed a pa-
tient of his dying hour by hour from weakness or ex-
haustion, he had not the power--the governor bad not
the power—to give the sick man a glass of wine or a
single ounce of meat. When the question was
discussed before tie Bench, a Magistrate, named
Roll 'stop, who was a Member of that House, and who

he (Mr. W.) hoped was then present, as he could ex-
Olin the facts of the case better than he could, as he
(Mr. %V.) had merely read an account of the transac-
tion in the public papers—that Hon. Gentleman

stated that ho believed rule in question had met
with the disapprobation of the Commissioners. A sur- 1
genii bad called on him (Mr. W.) to-day, and expressed
his surprise at hit (Mr. W.'s) not taking notice of a
communication which he had sent him. Oa his (Mr.
W.'s) stating that he did not recollect the communica-
tion, and requesting him to mention the facts to which
it referred, the surgeon said that Le hail a dispute with
the Uxbridge Board of Guardians. He kthe surgeon)
found it necessary in consequence of the destitute state
in which he found the poor in that district, to order as a
remedy nutriment to support and sustain their emaciated
frames. The Hon. Gent.eman then proceeded to read the
correspondence which bad passed between Mr. Itcyner
and the Poor-law Commissioners. In his first I,qt..r_to

the guardians, datei • December 3d, 1840, Mr.
Reyner stated that as he had been informed
that it was deemed unreasonable on his tart that

he should hate given orders for mutton, beer, aad beer,
fotecertain patients in the union, he thought it right to
acquaint the board that he had in no single instance
given any orders of that kind which he had not felt it
his duty to do, and that he considered that a proper
quantity and deecrit ton of nourishment was of as much
importance in the treatment of his patients as any
other remedy. The board of guardians had after-
wards come to a resolution to the following effect :
that as Mr. Reyner, out of nineteen patients during
the week, which he had attended, bad ordered snutton,
beer, and bread to fourteen, and as it appeared he had
ordered relief for two parties who were not in the list,
Mr. Reyner should be required to furnish the guardians
with explanation on the subject. Mr. Reyner stated
in reply, that he considered the diet he had ordered,
necessary to his patients, and so long as he continued
an officer, he would, under the tame circumstances,
pursue a similar inc of conduct. Ile had heard that
some of his orders had been refused and others torn
up ; and Le, therefore, considered it his duty to state
distinctly to the board, that he would not take upon
himself the care and responsiblty of the patients to
whom his orders were refused, ror tisk the danger
which might follow from such refusal, but he would feel
himself bound not to continue in his office under such
disadvantageous and hopeless eircumstances. Next
came the letter addressed to the Poor-law Commis'
sioners, in which M. Reyner having enclosed the corre-
spondence between himself anti the guardians, solicited
their answer upon three points. He wished to know
whether he had the authority as a medical officer to
order any description or article of diet for the pauper
patients under his care ; secondly, from whence did that
authority arise; and thirdly, whether the board of
guardians, or the relieving officer, had the authority to
refuse the diet which be, as a medical officer, deemed
necessary for his patents ; and if se, what would be
the ground for such refusal. Tne answer of the
Commissioners was dated the 4th of -March. It was
to the following effect :—" The Poor-law Commis-
sioners acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the
4th u't., and its enclosures. They have bad under
their consideration the inquiries you submitted to
them with respect to your authority as a medical offi-
cer, to order any description of diet you might think fit
for paupers under your care. The Commissioners in
reply, desire to inform you, that a medic el officer is
net empowered by the order of the Commissioners, or
by his contact with the guardians,•to order a-ticles of
diet. for pauper patients under his case. Such a
prosier would be eeuivalent to the power of g:vicg re-
lief, which the law has vested generally in the guardians,
and which it is not competent to a medical officer to exer-
cise. A medical officer can only recommend or ads ise
guardians orrelievingofficers to give certain articlesof diet
to pauper patients, and the guardians or the relieving offi-
cers, will exercise their discretion on their own responsibi-
lity, whether or not they should adopt such recom-
mendation or advice." The guardians, then, continued
the Hon. Gentleman, after having entered into a con-
tract with a medical practitioner to take care of the
poor, themselves undertook their mudical treatment—
( Hear, hear.) It was doing neither more nor less.
The medical gentleman might say that nutriment was
wanted; and, instead of filthy drugs, he might recom-
mend wine, beef, mutton, jellies, soup, and other ne-
cessaries ; but, as these were costly things, they could
not be given without the sanction of the guardians, who
might not meet for a week after. But what was to be-
come of the poor in the meantime? It was a consi-
deration to fill the mind with disgust and horror ;
and by such a law they would pronounce a sentence of
death against hundreds of their fellow-couirtry-
men ? What was the treatment of crimim:l gaols?
were the donors restrained there in that way ?
(Hear, hear.) The House knew full well they were
not restrained. They might order any articles of diet
they chose ; and in the gaols of this country, where
men who had violated the law were confined. nutriment
of every description was invariably given on the uncon-
trolled prescription and advice of the medical officer ;
but when these unhappy poor, who had laboured for
years to add to the dignity and renown of the country,
were in a state of destitution, and its one of those gaols
which had been constructad fir their convenience, if a
medical officer prescribed a remedy which he deemed
essential to their very existence, it could not be given
without the sanction of the non-medical board. lie wished
to state that fact ; they might do with it. as they pie ire'.
Mr. DARBY wished to set the Hon. Gentleman
right as to one point. If the Board did not meet
within a certain time, and the me Heal man said danger
would ensue, if the necessary relief was not given an
order might be obtained from a Magistrate for the pur-
pose of procuring it.
Sir H. VERNEY said the case stetsel by the Hon
Member for Finsbury was quite new to him. It cer-
tainly weld(' give him great pain if be thought such
misery could be caused as had been stated, but he
thought that the provisions of the Bill afforded every
necessary pretection, and were sufficient to meet every
case that could arise.
Lord HO WICK, hissing seen something of the ad-
ministration of the Poor-!aws, could distinctly state
that lie had never remembered a case in which a board
of guardians had hesitated for one single instant, in or-
dering nourishments, and the most expensive nourish-
ments, wine and so on, in cases where they be,ie‘e 1
them to be necessary.—(Cheers from the Poor-law
Act supporters.) He begged to tell the Hun. Mem-
ber for Finsbury, that it did not follow because a man
happened to have received a medical education, or
to he a member of the College of Surgeons, or some
other learned body, he was not at the same time a per-
son whose object was to ex'rite dissatisfaction in the
populatior.—( Hear, hear.) It did not follow that he
might not be a man who wished to curry a low and
despicable popul irity, and to endeavour to create
an outer? for no proper reason—(Cheers)—it did not
fellow that he might not be capable of abusing the
trust reposed in him, and availing himself of the autho-
rity he Exercised as an officer of the union for the pur-
pose of mischief, and in .order to defeat that law which
le ought to assist in administering.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
If a board of guardians had reason to suspect, and
were of opinion, that under the plea of ordering a proper
medical treatment that officer was setting aside the
system of relief which ought to prevail, they w le bound
t art upon diet opinion, and to decline the recom-
mendation of that medical man. He did not mean to
accuse the Hon. Member for Finsbury of wilful mis-
representation ; such an accusation, he kt ew, would be
altogether unparhamentary.—(Laughter.) He would
accuse no gentleman of anything of the sort, but the
lion. Gentleman certainly did too readily adopt loose
statements--
Mr WAKLEY—Has any one that I heva ever
made been refuted ?—( Hear, bear.)
Lord HOW ICK would ask whether they had been
substantiated ? The Hon. Gentleman had stated that
local governments ought to be maintained, and that all
interference with boards ought to be avoided, and yet
his complaint had been against the elected board of
guardians.—(Hear, hear). He trusted that this case,
wnb
notice,
tienhhen,tiiise nHn wouldso not
(becna
hvt leenenrarsan)ny. had
great
brought
weight forward
attached without
LoCnohloanseal.SxlioßuTs HtoOsße
‘Pk
panskpendiarifitythaesrethwisehreumnoblNe
and,oble
to the attack of the Noble Lord
three weeks were suffered to :1"1;
n-,issioners answered the letter ?
he stimuli say, respectable
ihdpo:lnfb had
eanbftnwe
re‘evnweartseist:
eti)fjteceeCtnlhtirne:dgt.
neither the Comnaisnsdionets nor the Noble Lord had any
,tionthebr
ttbi rbtSbei fel
.ocrtaanArlFirnsil'Yes°:
administer y description oTfhfeo-
r feeling
eive
d whatever,
hi
a ai
t soot)loctrd:the Noble Lord had
he
had
iimLeniPetdyoo%Nliotlphaf wiAthEie.G_uicsfriliiieen
had
oble
bet ter.—( Hoar,
Finsbury,
INa to
Ihtened with pain to the statement
soedflon. Merri-
s
of
l)
the
ahcee_s
surgeon
eegorrnee
tht
teaerd pain
e
coarsenseouurigshh-t
was inriovtesti:ngatnepdeeratliann
t attentiveo f the Hon.
Went he might
d.cserveed the moat think fit. Th
pow e Poor-law
1.
Member for Finsbury
the Commissioners con-
sideration. True ans"'!r ofh
d been did not
jeesoiry
intimate that any haul made at all before
the reproof was isdasinisterc was wrong. lie
ld b
evstions ou e debated without
trusted that these
the acrimony that hod that n;ght been exhibited.
• Colonel ROL Is ES"COI
N complained that, the
Hon. Member for Finsbury had not given him notice of
his intention to draw the House to this subject. As an

ex-officio guardian of the Baystrick Union, he had ael-
dom visited it, being of opinion that unless a guardian
was able to attend regularly, his attendance could be of
little service, and he should not have gone on the occa-
sion alluded to had it not been for an account of a hor-
rible case which be had seen in the paper. He found
an investigation had been ordered. A pauper named
Marsh had been removed in most inclement weather
into the union-house, and, after a few hours, he hid
died. He believed the inferior officers of the house had
done all they could for him. The medical man st ited
that he had ordered tea, water-gruel, &c. He had
been asked what that &c. meant, and whether he
would not have ordered something else. He said Yes,
he should have ordered spiced-wine, but it was contrary
t ) the order of the Board of Guar&ans. He (Co!. H.)
expressed his doubt of this order, and the medical man
app°•aled to the Chairman of the Board of Uuardiaas,
who said that although there was no written order, yet a
verb,.l injunction had been given to him to brit
ctiect which, on the application of the medical man, he
(the Chairman of the Board of Guardians) had endea-
voured to get re;cinded, but without effect.—( Hear,
hear.) At the &Aare time he felt assured that the House
must I.erceive that the Poor-law Cominisioners had
had neeling whatever to do with the order in question.
—( Hear, hear.) He believed the blame of this urJor-
tunato occurrence did not attach to the Poor-law Com-
missioners in consequence of any general order which
they had made. The circumstances, however, were
brought before the Magistrates, and they thought it of
so serious a nature as to require further invest;gation.
The case was brought before a Court of Justice, and
the Learned Judge in addressing the Grand Jury said,
the indictment against the medical men who had sent
this person in such inclement weather in an open cart,
should have been for manslaughter, and not for misde-
meanour. The case was now undergoing further in-

vestigation.
Captain HAMILTON said, as a guardian of a
union, he had alwa3s understood that the medical offi-
cers had the power of ordering whatever they thought
best. But be thought the statement which had just
been made, should in iuce members to pause before they
voted for the fourth clause, lest what they blamed and
condemned at Uxbridge should be enacted elsewhere.
Mr. WOOD had acted as a guardian far a consider-
able period. The result of his experience was that in
al cases the medical man ordered whatever he thought
proper, and the first intimation that the Board had of
it, was an application to the relieving officer to pay the
bill.
Mr. E. BULLER had seen the same practice uni-
ve-saily pursued.
General JOHNSTON complained that the medical
officer had not the power of administering to the patient
unless he had the authority of the relieving officer or the
board of guardians. Sometimes the guardians did not
meet for a fortnight. Did the House of Commons sit
for the purpose of starving the poor ?—( Hear, hear.)
He extremely regretted the declaration of the Noble
Lord at the commencement of the debate. A declara-
tion which confounded evil with good, virtue with vice
—a declaration that there should he but one test, whet-
ever the cause of destitution.—(Hear, hear.) He
call d upon the House to pause before they a .nctioned
such it principle. Had it been promulgated by the
Commissioners he would not have been surprised, but
when such a declaration came from a leading Member
of the Cabinet, he was totally at a loss to know how he
could place anv further confidence in the Government.
Mr. GROTE said that was not the moment for
commenting on the speech of the Noble Lord
the Secret try for the Colonies the other evening,
otherwise he should say that he never iu his life
listened to a speech which he more thoroughly con-
curred in.—(Hear, hear.) He felt the strongest admi•
ration of the steadfastness and the courage with which
the Noble Lord persevered in what he believed to be
the oily true and humane manner of dealing with the
poor and with pauFerism, in spite of the temporary
eiblequy which had been thrown upon him.—(Hear.)
The Hon. Member behind him desired that the medi-
cal cflicer of every Union should have unlimited power,
to order medical relief and sustenance of the most ex-
pensive kind without the possibility of the guardians or
Commissioners correcting or disallowing such an oeler,
in tfie event of their believing it to be unnecessary.
Why, if that doctrine were established the medical
officer of the union would become the real distributor
of relief.
Colonel WOOD said in the Staines Union the me-
dical officer was hell to be responsible not only for the
medicinesebut for the diet he gave to the poor.—(Loud
cries of " Spoke, spoke.") He was not aware of the
meaning of the cry.
The SPEAKER had a strong recollection of the
Hon. and Gallant Member speaking of houses not being
heated with warm water.—(Laughter.)
Mr. EAST HOPE was of opinion that all medical
officers under the Poor-law ought to have the power of
dealing with the sick poor as they pleased. They were
entirely under the control of the guardians; if they
were too lavish in their treatment, it would only be for
a week or a fortnight, when the guardians had the power
of suspending them from their functions. In his opinion
all tnedier.l affieets ought to be unfettered in the dis.
charge of their duties.
Mr. W. ATT WOOD said the case which had been
detailed in the House that evening was enough to jus•
tify him, and those who opposed the Bill altogether—
it was that of a poor person, guilty of no crime but
poverty, sinking under sickness and disease, yet the
medical officer did not feel himself justified in effordiag
that relief which sinking misery required without the
consent of the board of guardians. Yet this was a system
which the Member for the City of London supported.
He had no doubt that that and many similar cases bad
arisen from the strong language indulged in by the
Commissioners, which hal been condemned by the
Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, and
had not been defended by any one,
Mr. WARD said he was astonishel to hear any
Hon. Member so misrepresent the statements of the
Hon. Member for the Cty of London. He felt
inclit el to call them wilful misstaternents.—(Cries of
" Order.") If he had used any unparliamenta-y lan-
guage, he, of course, withdrew it.—(Hear, hear.) But
his Hon. Friend only contended that the medical
officer should be amenable to the board of guardians,
yet he was charged with inhumanity. In the district
with which he was connected the medical officer or-
dered whatever he considered requisite for his pa-
Ceres ; of course lie accounted to the guardians, but
in no case, up to the present moment, had he been
found fault with. At one time a low fever broke out
in the Bishops Stortford Union, when the poor were
treated with all that was necessary, even to the amount
o: 81, 4/., or 5/. a week for a family. Tt,at was a case
within his own knowledge, and spoke well in favour of
fie now Poor-law.
M. W. ATTWOOD understood the Hon. Mem-
ber to have withdrawn the charge made against turn,
and therefore had nothing to say on that head. As for
nesrepresent of
present, figs ofthe any kind,
ind, he was glad he was in
the recollection
Mr. COURTENAY was not one who had ever
courted popularity at the expense of his feelings of jus-
tice and right, or he might have indulged in abuse of
the Pour liw Bill, considering the feelings which per-
vaded his constituents. The evils of the old system
were enormous, and he respected the moral courage of
the Ministry who attempted to grapple with such a
subject. Tne evils were enormous, and it was neces-
sary to probe the wound deeply. He was in favour of
tire law, but he could not shut his ears or his heart to
wh,t had taken piece under it in the Bridgewater
Union. He did not think it was enough that the sur-
geons shoul I have tire power to give wine or other ne-
cessaries. He thought he ought to be unrestricted
alto;;, ther in his treatment of the sick poor. In Oct.
1836, an epidemic of a dangerous kind broke out in
Bridgewater; it raged to excess, and vast numbers
were ill. The medical men said it was absolutely ne-
cessary that there should be a change of diet to those
who had not been attacke I 'with the disease, in order
to save them ; they asked for merely a change from
water-gruel to rice milk : that was alt they asked for ;
hut the guardians refused the change ; they said they
had not the power to interfere with the dietary laid
down for their guidance by the Poor-law Commissioners.
He was no enemy to the Poor-law, but he could not
but let the House know how it worked ; that great
enormities took plies: in consequence of too rigid an
a•therence to the letter and not the spirit of the law.
He trusted when any iafcctious disease existed in a poor-
house a change of diet would not be confined to those
who were actually sick, but to those who were in a
sick atmosphere.
Mr. MUNTZ wished to call the attention of the
' House to the despotic power of the Poor-law Commis-
sioners. It bad been said that if any pauper guardians
could not do as they pleased, they were not responsible.
Now, if the Commissioners gave such general orders,
that, from circumstances, they were likely to be misun-
derstood, and the death of an individual was caused
thereby, they were guilty of murder. The despotic
power of the Commissioners was, he insisted, most ob-
. ti nable No man of independent mind would
jec o •
be-
come a guardian during the exercise of that power—
(Opposition cheers)—and the result would be that the
Poor liw guardians would be ur imately such men as
woull not do that justice which the House required they
should. With respect to tlse
say diet surgeons,
before the House, he woul i question immediately
when it was necessary to prescribe for paupers,
ought not to wait until the board of guar-
dians approved of the prescription. ,
recollected that the people now-a-days were not
such as those who used to be relieved under the Act
It should be
of Elizabeth. The people were now willing to labour
if they could get employment. The law ought to he
altered in such a way as that men of good feeling and
independent mind would become guardians.
11. e House then went into Committee, Mr. BERNAL
in the Chair.
On the let clause, referring to the continuance of
the power of tire Conamissioners for five years, being
ropoied, .
Mr. EASTHOPE rose to move an amendment, 11,
i
I thought that five years was too long a period during
which to consign the family of the poor to the Commis

sinners, and l!e wou!d beg to propose As an amendment
to substitute the figures 1843 instead of 1846 in the

clause•.
Mr. BERNAL said that one Honourable Mom.
brr had proposed as an amendmant to the sane cruse
the substitttion of the words 1843, another the words
1842, and another the words 1841. It was for the
Committee to decide which of those amendments he
should put fist—whether Le should hegin with the
smaller number or with the greater. He was in the

hands of the Committee, aud let them decide.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL stated that he would op-
pose the amendment.
Mr. BERNAL wished the Noble Lord to address
himself to the immediate question before the Committee
as to which of the Luml.ers he should fist propose.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Hon. Gentleman
had proposed an amendment wh ch he (Lord J. Rus-
sell) thought he ought to state his intertinn of opposing.
Afterwards a deiult-n-y conversation took place as to
which of f'ic numbers should be first put from the Chair,
Mr. BERNAL, in ens.ver to a question from Mr.
E tsthope, said that he had end, avow to state the
ase as clearly as possible. The matter to be decided
wa,. whether the numbers proposed should stand part

of ti.e ques' inn.
Sir J. GRAHAM said tat if the effect of the com-
mitting a bill pro lorma would be to fill up the blinks it
would be an important change. He was not prepared
to assent to a doctrine, now mooted for the first time,

and which was contrary to the opinion of the Chairman,
and of those most conversant with the practice of the

House..

Lard JOHN RUSSELL said he had always un-
derstood that a Btl could not go through Committee
without the blanks being filed up. Practically he did
nct see that there would be much difference in the plan
proposed.
Alt -r a few words from Mr GOULBURN and Mr
FIELDEN,

Mr GROTE said he understood the questien to be
put, " That the words 46 stand part of the Bill," to
which an amendment had been moved by the- lion.
Member for Leicester (Mr Easthope) to the effect that
the words 43 should be substituted for 46. To that
question he proposed to address himself. He trusted
that neither the Noble Lord nor the House would be
induced to accede to any proposition to shorten the
time below five years. He was quite as sensible as the
Hon. Member for Oldham that they were now dealing
with a question of very great importance to the wel-
fare of a large portion of the community, and not only
one of great importance but of considerable excitement ;
and he most say, that to him that excitement was an
additional reason why they ought not to reduce this
period to the short time proposed by the amendment.
He could not bonder that gentlemen who, like the Hon.
Member for Oldham (Mr. Fielders) and the lion.
Member for Finsbury (Mr. Wakley ) disapproved al:o•
gether of the working of the Bill, and conceived it to
be injurious to the welfare of the people, should be dis-
posed to restrict the duration of the authority of the
Commissioners to two y care, or one year, or even a
shorter period. But he should be much surprised if
this should turn out to be the opinion of gentlemen in
that House who has not come to that conclusion, who
had net made up their minds that the law was injurious,
but cocsid, red it to stork well, and in a wholesome mea-
tier, as he (Mr. Grote) bel eyed, or, at least, not in such
a manner as should induce than to condemn it at once,
a conclusion which appeared to him would be incon-
sistent with a shorter term than five years. What
was impliel in fixing a period of five years ? It was not
like creating an irrevoi able le Ise of property
which they could not enter upon until the ex-
piration of five years. They woull still have the
power to interpose it they saw good cause to put an end
ter the Commission. He conceived that this Commis-
sion was naturally, and by the necessity of the case,
determinat le at the wiil of Parliament. Gentlemen
appeared to forget the annual vote for the sa'aries of
the Commissioners in the Estimates, and that it was
camps tent for the House, by a single vote on that occa-
sion, thus to put an end to this Commission without the
concurrence of the other House of Parliament. He
confessed it did not appear to him necessary to fix any
specific period for the termination of the Commission,
but as the House had determined that some experience
should be had, and some period fixed, at the expiration
of which the House pledged itself to take the whole
subject of the Poor-laws into consideration, and to de-
termine whether the change required any, and what,
modifications, he did say it was not consistent with the
proper and legitimate working of the law to reduce that
period lower than flue years ; and for this reason, they
would weaken the law if they gave to this Cammis-
sion the appearance of an expiring and moribund body.
If they were to continue the Commission at all, they
ought to continue it for such time as would be sufficient
to give the Commissioners the power necessary to dig.
charge their serious and important duties, and net by
frequent interposition to give them the appearance of
being distrusted by Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) A
great deal had been said by many gentlemen in the
House respecting what. they termed the arbitrary and
despotic power of the Commissioners, and it had been
insisted upon, as a prominent reason why the House
ought to confine this power to a period as short as one
or two years. He (Mr. Grote) denied that the power
of the Commissioners deserved this character. Their
power was large, Lecause their dunes were onerous and
comprehensive ; but the question on which the House
ought b decide was, whether this power was more than
sufficient—than the discharge of the duties imposed
upon the Commissioners rendered necessary.—( Hear,
hear.) When gentlemen talked of arbitrary power he
(Mr. Grote) understood them to mean something sub-
jected to no legal or defini'e limits, but to
r:hat extent did powers of this nature coincide
with that of the Poor-law Commissioners ? Every
particle of power the Commissioners enjoyed was
derived from the Act of 1834, and one or two sub-
sequent Acts. Every one of these Acts was subject
to the legal revision of the Court of Queen's B inch,
by the easiest and most accessible process known to the
law ; and not only that but every rule and order of the
Poor-law Commissioners was liable to be disallowed by
the Queen's Counsel. And not only was there this
legal seeerity, but, what was of great importance, there
was the moral restraint under which the Commissioners
exercised their powee. All their acts were public,
formal, and open to criticism, which, to say the least of
it, was severe, if not acrimonious. Every act of the
Poor-law Commissioners was subject is the severest
scrutiny, and liable to bring them in collision with
I ersons in influential stations, and to create them ene-
mies in all quarters ; and moreover in case of any impu-
tation of mistake or misconduct, there was no authority
in tie State that could so little hope for countenance
or sympathy in anything like party influence or party
feeling. No.v, if gentlemen would discard thane express
sions, and apply their minds to the real facts of the
as e, they would see that this power did not deserve
the appelation of arbitrary and despotic. If the
power of the Poor-law Commissioners was arbitrary, what
was that of Justices of the Peace, who derived their
power from one hundred Acts which were construed
in their favour in the most liberal manner in the
Courts of law ?—(Hear, hear.) The House would re-
member that the power of subordinate legislation
which the Hon. Member for Oldham said imparted to
the law its unconstitutional character, must be lodged
somewhere, and if they distrusted the Commissioners,
it must be given to Justices of the Peace, to guar-
dians, or to the Secretary of State. That power was,
he contended, requisite for carrying on the law. It
exii ter] under the old system, end he put it to Hon.
Gentlemen whether they had not at the present mo-
ment vastly increased the security for the avoidance of
Anse, and the furtherance of the real and true intent
of the promoters of the law. He did say that the
House would not do justice to its own intention if they
did nit continue the law under circumstances favour-
able to its working, and if they consented to reduce
fat; ti:ne of duration of the Commission to any period
shorter than five years. If they should acquiesce in a
shorter time the effect would be that they would pare-
the authority of the Commissioners for good pur-
poses much mare than for evil purposes.—(Hear, hear.)
If they created in the public mind the belief that these
Commissioners had not the confidence of Parliament,
but were distrusted and discountenanced, their .autho-
rity would thenceforward be neglected and it would be
thcueht by their opponents that they had only to run
the duration of their resistance against the life of the
Commission to contend successfully. He said therefore
that by shortening the Commission, they would deprive
the Commissioners of that just authority without which
it would be impossible for them to discharge their duty
with satisfaction or advantage. He thought this reason
was the test possible reason why the Hon. Member
for Oldham should vote for the amendment, but at the
same time that- it tvas the best possible reason why it
should be resisted by those who wished to support the
law in its present efficiency.—(Cheers.)
Mr. HODGSON HINDE said he was greatly
surprised at the speech of the Honourable Mem-
ber (Mr. Grote), from which he inferred that the
Honourable Member had never read the . Act of
Parliament by which the Commission was created,
and that he bad had no practical experience of the
working of the Poor-laws. 'rne Hen. Member denied
that the power of the Commissioners was arbitrary, since
their rules might be set aside by the Queen in Council,
but the Cemtnissioners had found the way to set aside
the orders of the Queen in Council alt )(settler, by
making orders which did not come under the name of
general rules.—( Hear, hear.) He did not stand there
to dispute whether the power possessed by Justices of
the Peace was arbitrary or not, but could not the Hoe,
Gent'eman draw a distinction between arbitrary power
in administering the law, anti arbitrary power in making
it ? There were doubtless many evils under the
old system, but if a person violated the law,
he might have been called to account for it.
tae lel cued that if on the second readirg the House had
tee laboured under the delusion that if they rejected the
present measure they should necessarily return to the old
one. :he resift r.f the division would be very different from
titto 1 b en. He should conclude with these ie.,:
rusiks, which had Leon drawn from him by the eatraordis
nary speech of the Hon. Member for London,
Mr. WA KlaFt Y said that he bad listened with great

astonishment to the speech of the Hon. Member for Lop-
(lor, and he hoped that Hon. Memb,)r w,,uld not be
c'ast,:tel by the Noble 1..,rd among the miichicv.,us dema •
gogues for London.—( A laugh.) At present he did not
himself know where to class the, Her.. Member ; but he
would i edeat that he bad been astonished at the speech 113
had made. The Hoe. Gentleman was an advocate lir
tie continuance of the Commi•sicn 1,,r five years. But

had the Hon. Gentleu:a•r adduced any argument to show
that it could ope:ate beneficially for the country ? There
had been some
:abstract reasons adduced; but where were
the particular illus'ra ions to show that the Commission nad
worked well during the last four or five years, or to show
that it was likely to work well for the next five
years? When the Commission had- been established
it was understood that the law was to establish
a new order of things, and some new functions of an ex-
trasrdinary charwt r and peculiar na'ure were designed
to beige' it into execution. The law had been in existence
since 1834; and they were now in the year 1841 without
having obtained the result; they anticipated. The Com-
mission had been ere a•ed for the purpose of cresting uni-
f amity in the working of the Poor-law. The decisions
of
:the May,istrates wsre so various, so chequcted and
div.lsified, so repugnant to common sense and the prin.-
cip;ea of humanity—those were the doctrines of the day—.
ti:at the Poor- lew Commi:siosers v-ere to be created far
the purpose of producing throughout the land a uniform
wort lig snd a uniform system. Now where were the
general rules applicable to all unions? Was there one
such rule ? No. They were still, in his belief, as far
from having one general rule applicable to the Poor-law
established as when the Commission had been first intro-
duced. But the Commissioners had been to work ; they
I al done something—plenty of mischief as he had heard.
But they had incorvrated into unions 13,000 parishes.
How many more were there still to be incorporated ?
Only 700. Let them try that fact by the rule of three.
If in six years the Commissioners had been enabled to in-
corporate 13,000 pa i,hes would it take them five years
more to incorporate 700? Why, they might have al-
ready incorporated many of the remaining unions.
They would certainly mest with obstacles in some
quatters. All the unions in the metropolis were not
yet incorporated, thanks to the mischisvous demag gues,
in some of its parishes. —( Hear, heir.) Things were
getting into a pretty pass in that House on the subject of
the Poor-laws. He had often regretted that there war
not some place in the House in which Members who were
not connected with any of the great leading patties could
locate theinselv,2s, and se at the nseives nee, esionally as
neutrals. He had often felt great inconvenience and an-
noyance under the yresent state of things. He had no
' desire to associate on that (the Ministerial) side of the
House with Noble Lords, and it appeared Noble Lords
' bad no desire t> a4sociate with him.—( A laugh.) But
he could assure Noble Lords that wlntever contemptuous
feeling they might entertain towards him—however much
they might clout the truth of his statements—howev,tr
much they might presurr e to queetion what he had ad:
vanced in that House—however much they might be in-

dined to treat him with contempt, he could a;sure them
without ill-humour that he could return the compli-
meet ; and if he wanted to establish a character ei.b the
people of this country, he could assure them be would never
acply to thsm f r a recommendation of his worthiness.
He thought it most unfair in Noble Lords to cast out in
their observations any insinuations against the veracity of
a person who in point of family distinction was their ink-
tier. But when the people had thought fit to
send a 'nee to that House who had obtained his
scat neither by corruption nor family intl.:gee—mid it was
not the roan that was treated with disrespect, for he
scorsed such a supposition—but it was treating those who
had soot him there with disrespect, to use unfounded in-
sinustions ; and such a circumstance showed clearly that
those who made such insinuations had yet to learn what
was true liberty, or what were the just claims of the
people.—( Hear, hear.) If his family had been so costly
to the nation as the tarnili!s of some men—( Hear, hear)
—if he had weight in that House—in c insequence of the
s-eight of public metal in his pocket—then tie might be
treated with more respect ; but he should say it was not
proper—it we, not just—i: was not consistent—it was not
manly to throw out insinuations against an individual who
had been the archi ect, who had been the framer of his
own reput scion and fortunes. —( Hear, hear.) It was by
labour, by constant and zealous labour, that he had ac-
quired the honour and distinction of a seat is that House,
and he hoped that while he was there he would be tried by
tl e majority c f tee House, by his conduct in the House,
leiod that if he did nought unworthy of his position, nor mate
any sta-emeat that was untrue, he would receive a suffi-
eisnt reward is the consciousness that he had discharged
his duty. Wow statement had he made that had been re-
futed? But the Noble Lord asked whether his st itements
hel been substantiated ? They had, however, been suffi-
ciently substantiated by the fact that they had still
remained contradicted. These were parties erough which
would have felt it their interest to contradict him if he had
stated anything that had been untrue. It was necessary
for him to say that he bad made no statement for the pur-
pose of obtainieg a miserable and grovelling popultarity.
With resl.ect to the kind of popularity which men might
be desirous of acquiring, there would be a difference of opi-
nion. For his pat he wished to obtain popularity by
stating what was true, and by duly discharging his duties
in the House. He bad no desire to obtain (any other kind
of popularity ; and be was sure he would receive a sufficient
cite ck in the House if he were to make the attempt. The
statements be hal made that night had an immediate bea--
ing on the continuan:e of the Commission, and had been
alluded to by various 14ernbers. What were the intentions
of the Commissioner ? Did they wish that the poor should le
benefited or that the poor should be coerced? Did they wish
that the guardians should be checked is the exorcise of thc ir
powers and that a uniform system should be introduced? The
results of their- operations inspired him with doubts on
these subjects. When a statement of any particular kind
was made in that House he invariably observed that a dozen
c entlemen started up and said the-e could he no such
thing, as in all the cases that bad come under their comi-
derwion there was nothing but kindness and liberality in
the workirg of the law. The Hon. Member for Shef-
field would have given them to understand from his speech
of that evening that there was nothing but uniformity in
the system. But he (Mr. Wakley) held in his hand the
last amended rules for workhouses, which were dated in
August last; and in those rules he found an especial re-
ference made to the power of the medical officers and the
treatment of the sick. The Honourable Member for
Sheffield had stated that the medical officer had
ti e power for the week of ordering anythir g
he pleasel. The 17th rule, however, That
the p upers of the respective sexes would be
dieted with the food and in the manner described in the
dietary tables hereto annexed, and in no other manner."
That was the 17th rule. The proviso to it was as
follows :—" Provided, however, the medical officer may
direct in writing such diet far any individual pauper he
may think neesssi:ry ; and the master shall report such
direction to the board of guardians, who will sanction or
disallow them at their discretion." If, then, the medical
officer recommended wine, meat, end other such nourish-
ment to his patients, the master of the workhouse caul l
not comply with his injunctions. Mr. Johnson, the go-
vernor of the Base ford Union, had stated in evidence he
had given, that the board of guardians had made
a rule that no wine, beer, ale, or stimulants, should
be given without the sanction of the board That wss
in the book; of the guardians, and it was only is comp i ince
with the order of the Commissioners themselves. Thera
regulations might not have been f illoael in certain in-
stances. The truth was that there was nothing bat dis-
orelt r instead of uniformity in the preset operati in of the
few; and surely that was no ground for coetinuivg the
powers of the Commissioners fir five years more. Under
the circumstances it was their duty to make the duration
of tine Commissioners as short as possible, and to take the
duty cf further legislating on the matter upon themselves,
and not leave it in the hands of three irresponsible agents
whose past conduct he c emended had given nothing but
dissatisfaction to the people.
Mr. HAWES said, as he had originally given his
support to the Bi l in its introduction into the House, and
at he had closely wa'clied the op; ration of the mee-
sure, he would not he induced by any fear of unpo-
pularity to swerie from the opinion he had formed,
aed which had daily gained adai tonal strength in his
mind. He was bound to say, notwithstanding what had
fallen from the Hon. Member for Finsbury, that he
`closely subscribed to the spceeheb of the Noble Lord, the
Member fee- Northumberland, the Noble Lord, the Secre-
tary fur the Colonies, and the Hon. Member Cr London.
The many evils of the old system should not be forgotten.
It should be rememtered that in for Mer times Mr. Can-
nieg had declared that it was no fault of a Government if
it left the Poor-law untouched, from the extent. and
complication of the evils which surrounded it ; and is the
year 1830, a Noble Lord, then Mr. Baring, said that he
saw no means whatever to cope with the demoralization
and difficulty in which the country was involved by the ex-
istiig state of the Poor.laws. He did not hold economy to
be the best part of the present measure, becauso the most
important part in his opinion was that which established
some control over the operation cf the law. The old
system was, in truth, in many cases one of torture and
barbarity ; for under its sanction the old and the young,
the vicious and the virtuous, were huddled together with.
out order and ellessifisation. They could not return to
that liw ; but t' ey were told at the same time they might
overturn the present one. He thought that many unjust
complaints had been made against the existing system.
He would instance as a testimony to the nature of its work-
ing what had happened in the Union of Richmond in Sur-
rey, which was p;it.l by the guardians as a matter of course.
For eight weeks there were expenses for extra diet for
wine, brandy, arrow-root, sago, and isinglass, and that was
not a saiitary instance. It was an every .1 occurrence,
arid he would appeal for the truth of that assertion to every
gewleman present who was a member of a board of guar-
d ans.—(Cheers.) What had been the conduct of the
Hon. Member under the old law ? Had he ever raised
his voice as the fr end of the poor against the abuses of the
old system ? He would justify the Lew law upon this
ground—that bring administered by responsible officers,
lehtifisd with the Government of the day, the most inte-
rest was excited, and public observation drawn to the ad-
reilistration of the law, sveLli never had Lees, and never
could have teen, attracted to it, while the administration
of it was scattered and divided among fourteen or fifteen
thousand independent bodies. He would defend the exist-
ence if 1113 Commission on popular grounds—( Hear, hear)
—because tl is was the first time that the administration cf
this enormous fund had been placed ia the hands of resa
ponsible officers, and from that moment the administration
of that fund had become an object of close and vigilant
attention from the public, from which it had before been
free.—(Cheers.) Under the old system, with
fourteen or filteen thousand independent and irrespon-
viola bodies administering this enormous fund, there
could be no security for the public. Honourable Mem-
bers seemed to have forgotten the enormity of the
cv:l they bad had to deal with. The,:::l,l:,!!ht..P.:L
able Baronetno-tar-
that as relief
they forget
increased
tries pe hionuesrsela:yeb;lidn 813Chioro:wilada-
, the Member for Tame
inehamshire, wht:,?.l3 She rrl of had been arl,,,u.i,tocd in
sech aa nes that at le tigta the rates ebtxhiirteeikiaiiere..ilsritiwhe eats-iceuefee.t
owf.t
np faunndd?
ethera s drho
f(4 e
wages se q eonee er sesf t;
uncoltiyated is facts there was no parish. This was not