The Sun.
London, England, 1847-05-15 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MAY 15, 1847

; contact with the districts eastward. The South Wales
I line, therefore, was the line for the mineral traffic,
and if for the mineral traffic, then for all other species of
traffic that could be brought upon it ; and they had therefore
bushto judge
in
thew hpeltahceer
otth
thew woubroad
ld take thee 1n tnhaeririoawn d . gaugeil They
yn
hadth e
already got the broad gauge aL, Hereford, and all th._ evidence
of their opponents had gone to show that the traffic of the
narrow gauge ought to be, and was, naturrally northwards.
M. Hildyard had not been content with attacking the line
under discussion' but had levelled his remarks at the main
line of the South Wales itself ; and had stated because it
hugged the coast, as he termed it, that it was unnecessary,
from its adjacency to the River Severn and the Bristol
Channel. Why, it was well known that the very reason why that
railway was necessary was the tediousness, the uncertainty, •
and the risk of that passage. And certainly wonders would
never cease, for it was perfectly astounding that the North-
Western Company should allege such an argument in the
teeth of the very fact that they were themselves reaping in-
ordinate profits from carrying' merchandise to Edinburgh, in
competition with the very best system of steam navigation that
this country had ever possessed ; and had, in consequence of its
powers, almost absolutely ruined some of the best canals of
the country. The Learned Counsel then entered into an
examination of the relative advantages of the two schemes
to the public, from the facilities which they gave at the ports of
Gloucester and London, and showed that whatever might be the
present possessions of the North-Western :Company, the
Great Western had at least as powerful means for meeting
the necessities of public accommodation, and stated his belief
that in these days it was impossible to live in apathy or
quiet, and it was therefore evident that this line would be
made by some party, and the Great Western Company were,
in his opinion, entitled :to its construction. The Learned
Counsel then went into an examination of the convenience
that would be obtained by the construction of the Bir-
mingham and Oxford line, and the consequences that would
flow from the establishment of the several projects, which
extended to the south-west, and concluded a long and power-
ful speech a little before four o'clock, when
The Committee intimated that they would give their de-
cision as soon as they received the report of the Railway
Commissioners, unless something should transpire in the
course of the cases about to come under their consideration
that they ought to postpone the declaration of it till those
cases had been hea4.

SANDWICH HAVEN.
This Committee met again to-day, in No. 17 Committee-
room, at twelve o'clock, when further evidence in favour of
this Bill was adduced.
The witnesses agreed in stating that the dredging of the
water would be productive of the greatest good to the naviga-
tion, and might be accompliThed at no great outlay of capital.
Adjourned until Monday.
LIVERPOOL GAS COMPANY—LIVERPOOL GUAR-
DIAN GAS COMPANY—ASHTON GAS COMPANY.
The Committee re-assembled again this morning at the
usual hour.

Evidence in favour of the first-mentioned Bill was con-
tinued. Its object is to extend the operations of the com-
pany, and to increase the capital to 200,0001. It is opposed
by the second-mentioned company, and by the corporation
and some of the rate-payers, consumers of gas.
Mr. Milard, the accountant to the company, was examined
at great length with respect to the past operations of the
company, and as to the necessity for increasing the supply of
gas to the inhabitants.
Adjourned until Monday.

SAFFRON WALDEN RATES BILL.
This Committee met at twelve; Mr. Gisbourne in the
chair, and read and agreed to the clauses of the Saffron
Waldon Rates BilL They then rose.

METROPOLITAN SEWAGE MANURE.
After hearing Mr. Hopwood against the Bill, the Corn
rnittee declared the preamble proved.

AYR HARBOUR BILL.
After hearing some evidence on behalf of this Bill, the
Committee decided that the preamble was not proved.

SWANSEA DOCKS.
The Committee on this Bill met this morning at twelve
o'clock ; Mr. llodgson Hinde in the chair.
The object of the Bill is to obtain power for the construction
of docks at the port of Swansea, and it is opposed on behalf
of the harbour trustees, who apprehend injury to the piers
and quays.
Mr. HILL, Q.C., replied on behalf of the promoters, show-
ing that there were clauses in this Bill which would oblige
them to repair any damage they might occasion to the prc-
perty of the trustees.
LIVERPOOL WATERWORKS.
Tho Committee met this morning—Sir J. Johnstone in the
chair—and proceeded with the opposition of the landowners,
Mr. Winstanley, the eminent surveyor, and several other
witnesses, being examined to show the injury that would he
done to property by the construction of the works, especially
to that of Mr. Benderley, of whose land 135 acres are to be
taken.

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IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT
HOUSE OF LORDS, May 14.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack
at Five o'clock.
A number of Bills were brought up from the House
of Comnwns.
TEIE TOWNSIIEND PEERAGE.
Mr. AUSTIN having concluded his address in this case
shortly before the assembling of their Lordships, a num-
ber of papers were handed in, and attested by witnesses
on oath at the bar.
The Bill was then read a second time.
THE FACTORIES BILL.
Lord FEVERSHAM presented a petition from
Leeds, signed by 28,300 persons, in favour of this Bill.
IMMIGRATION OF IRISH PAUPERS.
Lord CAMPBELL said he had a petition to present
from Liverpool. It had been sent him on account of his
connexion with the Duchy of Lancaster. They com-
plained that, since the Ist of January of the present
year, 150,000 destitute Irish paupers had migrated into
Liverpool, taking up their residence in the town and
neighbourhood, taking possession of cellars condemned
as human habitations ; and that is these places fever,
small-pox, and dysentery had broken out. 'They peti-
tioned that their Lordships, in order to save them from
not only this pressure upon the poor-rates, but from the
contagion which was spreading into every quarter.
LUNATIC ASYLUMS BILL.
The NOBLE AND LEARNED LORD moved that this
Bill should go into Committee pro forma.
The Duke of RICHMOND was opposed to the pro-
gress of this Bill. Ha had opposed the original Bill, but
the present changed the only redeeming parts of that
old Bill.
Lord CAMPBELL said it would be committed
pro formd, and ample opportunity for discussion would
be offered when it was in Committee.
The Bill then went through
EDUCATION. Committee pro forma.
The Bishop of EXETER gave notice that he would,
on Tuesday next, ask the Government a question, in
regard to a communication made to a deputation of Dis-
senters on the subject of education.
POOR REMOVAL ACT.
Earl FORTESCUE presented several petitions in
favour of the Poor Removal Act.
TEN HOURS' BILL.

Lord STANLEY presented several petitions in favour
of the Ten Hours' Bill. One of them had received ten
thousand signatures.
Lord BROUGHAM presented several petitions to the
same effect.
The Duke of RICHMOND presented four petitions
from the West Riding of Yorkshire, which were also to
the same effect.
Lord FEVERSHAM presented a petition to the same
effect, which had received the signature of twenty-eight
thousand persons.
IRISH POOR RELIEF BILL.
Earl FITZ WILLIAbI moved for a return
from each rateable district, whether union, elec-
toral division, or otherwise, of the rates struck,
levied, or in arrear, under the provisions of
the Act for the temporary relief of destitute persons;
also, an account of the number of persons, distinguish-
ing males and females, adults and children, to be relieved
in each district, according to those provisions of the said
Act, by which the lists of such persons are to be made
out within each division; also, a return of the estimates
made by the relief committee of each electoral division,
of the sum needed from time to time for the purchase of
food, under the provisions of clause 7 of the said Act ;
and also a statement of the rate per cent. of the rates,
whether struck or levied upon the valuation of the
district according to the poor-law valuation. He
had asked his Noble Friend to give him some infor-
mation upon these points, but he was unable to do so,
and he was therefore most anxious that the House should
have such documents in their possession as would en-
able them to come to a sound and accurate judgment.
And he could assure the House that there was a great
difference between rates struck and rates levied
(Laughter.) It was quite easy for the officer to
strike a rate, but it was quite another matter to collect it.
After a few words from Lord BROUGHAM,
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE suggested that the
Noble Lord should postpone the motion which he had
submitted to the House.
After some further conversation,
Earl FITZ WILLIAM. consented to postpone his
motion until Monday.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE rose again and said
that, in the Committee on this Bill, after considerable
difficulty in fixing a limit to the duration of
the measure, he then stated that he would
res, rve to himself to take that course which
in!ght think proper at the subsequent stages of the
Bill. It was now his duty to retain the opinion which
he expressed in Committee, namely, to strike out
of the Bill those clauses which were intended to
affix a limit to the measure, or to make it of a
temporary nature. The arguments on both sidi's
lay in a very narrow compass. It was stated by
:hose Lords who wished to affix a limit to this mea-
sure, that it was in a great degree experimental.
lie admitted on introducing the Bill, and he now re-
peated it, that the measure was of an experimental na-
ture, but he still as strongly objected to have any fixed
period assigned for its duration.—(Hear, hear.) He
also was oppOsed to its being made a temporary mea-
sure, from the difficulties which they would have to en-
counter in carrying it out; and in the course of time
they would be enabled to ascertain the nature of those
difficulties, and to be, as a matter of course, in a better
position than at present to amend them. Of course
their Lordships would reserve to themselves the power
of reconsidering the measure in two, three, or even ten
years hence ; unless they reserved this power, the
greatest inconvenience would result. An additional rea-
son in favour of the permanency of the measure was to
be found in the diversified arguments of Noble Lords in
favour of the limitation of the Bill, some being in
favour of one year, some one year and a half, and some
!Or its limitation to five years—(Hear, hear)—that in
itself was an additional reason why they should not
anticipate the duration of the measure, but more espe-
cially was it inexpedient to do so at the present moment.
The experience which they had had of Ireland ought
to prevent them from passing the Bill as a temporary
one.—(Hear, hear.) The House of Commons intended
that it should be a permanent measure; that, however,
was no reason why it should not be submitted to revision
like all other measures.—(Bear, hear.) They might
her. Under these circumstances
or
hpaesabsbeirgtoggaesadtaetot jetm
moveaplot ro
ag.measure, and subsequently alter
that their Lordships do disapprove
of those clauses which made the Bill a temporary one.
Lord BROUGHAM begged to say that he maintained the
opinions he had formerly expressed. He was the first per-
son that had suggested the expediency of making it tempo.
rary, and not permanent. He retained that opinion still, al-
though he highly approved of the suggestions of the Noble
Marquis, and did not think they would lose anything by taking
the discussion in that way. He was surprised, however, at
the line of argument adopted by the Noble Marquis. Had he
not distinctly heard him say that he was about to move that
the clauses giving a temporary character to the Bill should be
omitted, he would, he confessed, have believed that he was
arguing in favour of the course adopted by the Commit-
tee for making the measure a temporary one.—( Hear, hear.)
fie said the ides of binding themselves to use their discretion
at an after-time was most absurd. He agreed that the measure
ought only to be temporary, and he thought so because it was
new in system and gave out door relief. The Noble Marquis
himself admitted that the measure was only an experiment;
yes, a great experiment—a hazardous experiment encompassed
with every risk. Surely, it ought to be but a temporary
enactment. Did they forget the measure of 1i434, that it
was made a temporary measure, and that merely ? He felt that
he must vote against the motion.
Lord CAMPBELL thought the Learned Lerd had surely
never read the measure as amended. Never was /a refine le veut or
iv voile veut pronounced over a more miserable farce of legislation
If the Noble Earl on his right had moved a clause at the close
of the Bill that it be in force for three or five years, that
would have been in the regular course of legislation. But the
Bill as it stood contained clauses at utter variance with each
other. It contained four clauses, severally permitting the
giving of out-door relief; of provisional relief without the
knowledge of the guardians and of medical relief. These were
temporary. But there were clauses inserted by the Noble
Lord which quite stultified these. Clause 3 was to be a per-
manent clause; and it enacted that an exact return
should be made of all applicants for every kind of relief--
medical and out-door relief. In 18.50 the powers to grant
out-door relief would have failed. But it did not cease then.
There was a clause respecting er-officio guardians. He would
not go through all the details of the Bill to point out its various-
incongruities. They had the confessions of three-fourths of
those who voted for the Bill that they did not know what they
were about.

• Lord MONTEAGLE said, though he had net the experi-
ence in legal matters that his Noble and Learned Friend pos-
sessed, yet he thought the fallacies in this case were so potent
that even an unlearned person could discover them. Medical
relief differed altogether from what was called out-door relief.
There was no inconsistency in the measure, as it clearly pro-
vided that out-door relief should be given for three years, and
that the Commissioners should have the power of controlling
and regulating it. And the other objections of his Noble
Friend were equally untenable, namely, that permanent and
temporary clauses in a Bill were irreconcilable. The charter
of the Bank of England and of the East India Company, for
instance, contained temporary clauses with others which
were perpetual, and therefore the insertion of
clauses of this kind in the Bill was no novelty,
and was no evidence of inexperience on his part. Therefore,
as the Bill stood it was partly temporary and partly the reverse,
but they should bear in mind that the temporary part related to
the most important and at the same time the most serious part
of the Act. Nothing was more likely to prove fatal to the
measure than making it permanent, because it proposed the
introduction of u dangerous principle, which its supporters ad-
mitted to be purely experimental. If they believed that the
experiment would be successful let them make it permanent,
but if they felt that they were introducing a dangerous expe-
riment—a frightful one, in his opinion, if they thought they
were groping in the dark, he asked them to support the clause
which he had succeeded in carrying.—( Hear, hear.) If
the Bill were temporary it would be more successful and
more advantageous, because it would be tried at a time
when every one was interested in securing its success, owing to
the calamity which had visited Ireland, from which they could
hardly expect she could extricate herself in the next three
years. He denied that there was any truth in the statement
which had been made, that he had brought forward his amend-
ment for the purpose of defeating the measure ; his sole object
was to render it more efficient and less injurious than as it
came before them. His Noble Friend the Postmaster-General
(the Marquis of Clanricarde) in 1843, when he was connected
with the administration of affairs in Ireland, was strongly
opposed to out-door relief ; and said that he wondered that any
man could have the hardihood to introduce a Bill to carry into
effect such a system, as it would lead to the confiscation of
property, and to the greatest misery and injustice. He
considered the proposition of the Noble Marquis ( LansdoWne)
hardly respectful to the Noble Lords who, in Committee, sup-
ported his clause. To them he appealed to continue that sup-
port to it, and not to consent tothe proposition of the Noble
Marquis.
The Marquis of CL ANRICARDE said his Noble Friend
had, in his clause, lost sight of the main principles of out door
relief, and had confined it to its least important matters. He
admitted that, at the time to which the Noble Lord had re-
ferred, that he was strongly opposed to out-door relief ; and,
if the circumstances were the same at present, he might, no
doubt, have been of the same opinion ; but at that time he
contended that out-door relief should be giveu to the indigent
poor, and ho was of the same opinion now, and that

I the state of Ireland rendered out-door relief to the
' able bodied indispensable to their preservation. —(Hear.)
If they taught the people of Ireland that the Bill was merely
I intended to meet the present emergency, and to be abrogated
‘ as soon as it had passed away, he considered that it would be
fraught with the greatest danger to both countries; but if it
were p: sled as proposed, it would settle the public mind on the
subject ; its principles and objects would become generally
known, and the people would know the p•-sition in which they
were placed ; and, therefore, he should vote for the Bill being
made a permanent one.
Earl WICKLOW hoped their Lordships would not depart
from their original decision. It had been said that if the
measure were made a temporary one, that the guardians would
work ineffectually; but he considered that the best way to sea
how they would work for the future, was by making the Bill a
temporary one. He was in favour of its permanency, and
had proposed a motion to that effect, in order that the
subject might in a few years come again under revision, when
the experience which they would have obtained would enable
them to maturely improve its provisions. If their Lordships'
should not confirm their former decision, he should feel it his
duty to move, when they came to the last clause, that the Bill
si:ould be limited to three years.
The Earl of RIPON said that after having given the Bill
the most minute attention and consideration he had come to
the conclusion that this measure was not calculated to relieve
the evils which at present afflicted Ireland. A system of out-
door relief might indeed provide for a few able-bodied poor,
but it certainly would not enable them to provide for their fa-
milies. The principle, as applied to England, had not had
that effect, it did not therefore appear likely to have it with
regard to Ireland, lie hoped their Lordships would most se-
riously consider the matter before applying to Ireland perma-
nently a measure of the effect of which they were not able to
judge, and which was by no means certain to be carried effec-
tually into operation.
The Earl of RODEN said that he trusted that their Lord-
ships had sufficiently considered this Bill to have enabled them
to have come to the conclusion that it might be benficial if
passed temporarily, but as a permanent measure would be
worse than useless. If it were once passed by that House as
a temporary measure, all classes in Ireland would have the
greatest anxiety to carry it well into effect, however much
they might dissent from many of its clauses ; but if it were in-
flicted upon them as a permanent Bill, not only would its ope-
ration be inefficient, but most likely productive of mischief.
If the Bill worked well, nothing could be easier than after-
wards to render it a permanent one, but if worked badly, they
would have round their necks a burden which they would be
unable to relieve themselves of.
Earl FITZWILLIAM (who was indistinctly heard) en-
tirely concurred in the observations of the Noble Lord who had
last spoken. With regard to the nature of this Bill, he
thought that if it were to be applied as a permanent act of
Legislation the difficulties in its administration would be in-
creased tenfold ; and their Lordships would have no oppor-
tunity of revising the decision they had given should the mea-
sure prove to be inoperative, or mischievous in its effects. He
thought that the most serious consideration should be given by
their Lordships to the whole matter, before they affirmed a
principle which would saddle Ireland with a permanent Bill—
of the operation of which, whether for good or evil they were
at present utterly unable to form an opinion.
Earl FORTESCUE said, he was of opinion that the diffi-
culties on the subject of this Bill would be considerably in-
creased if they adopted the proposal of the opponents to the Bill.
One of the arguments in favour of this commission was, that
after a course of five years, it would be found whether it worked
well or ill. (The Noble Earl was almost inaudible. )
The Archbishop of DUBLIN—His opinions on this Bill
were unchanged. The opponents to this Bill were still of
opinion that there was too great a difference between Ireland
and England to render the application of this Bill to the former
country effective. This Bill was a very hasardous experiment,
though he did not blame those who brought forward the mea-
sure, for they had but a choice of evils. He could most
solemnly assure their Lordships, that he was only hostile to
this measure from its being, as he had just said, a most hazard-
ous experiment. If they legislated on the principle of this Bill
for Ireland, they would find it impossible to recede from
that principle afterwards. He would wish to see the
Bill in operation for a short time, and then that
their Lordships should be imperatively called upon to revise it
if that were found to be necessary. There was another class
who should be considered in le3islating on this subject, namely,
the clergy, and who, in the affl,ction that had visited Ireland,
had been foremost in relieving the people of all religious deno-
minations.—( Hear, hear.) The clergy had made many
sacrifices to relieve that distress, and except in the cases of a
few fanatical persons, without any attempt at proselytism. And
it was this class, he asserted without fear of contradiction, that
would suffer from the burden that would be imposed by this Bill.
The clergy were supposed to be rated to the poor-rates, but
when the tithe commutation was made in England it was sup .
posed to be free of all rates and taxes. When, however, the
commutation of the tithes in Ireland took place it was con-
sidered as the rental of the property minus the poor-rate,
there being at that time no poor-rates in existence in Ireland.
He considered that the clergy would be placed under consider-
able hardship by the passing of this measure. He could not
forbear bearing his humble testimony to the constant and uni •
form attention which the Lord-Lieutenant had paid to the best
and purest interests of the Church of England in that
country. That nobleman had rendered many great and
important services to the church, and he begged to tender
I both to him and to her Majesty's adviser, his most grateful
thanks for the attention they had paid to that important sub-
ject.—( Hear, hear.) The sound judgment, and the firmness
' which he had invariably displayed in the performance of the
difficult duties which devolved upon him, would render his
government in that country worthy to be long remembered by
the people of Ireland.—(Cheers.)
The Marquis of CONYNGHAM could not participate in
the fears which had been expressed by many Noble Lords as to
the result of the working of this measure. He believed that
by establishing a principle of out-door relief. a great deal would
be done to ameliorate the condition of the people of Ireland. This
Bill would discourage that fearful amount of crime and misery
which existed in Ireland, by telling the people of that country
that they had a right to relief from their more wealthy neigh-
bours, and that they need not starve or perish through age or
infirmity, or for want of the common necessaries of life. The
Bill would also compel the landlords to look more closely to
their own interests, and to attend more to the cultivation of
the soil than they had hitherto done. He did not entertain
so Utopian a notion as to suppose that this measure would
prove a panacea for all the evils which afflicted Ireland. He
thought, however, that it was a step its the right direction.
He should most certainly support the Bill.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw,
When there appeared for the motion,
Contents (present)
Non-contents (present)
Majority in favour of the resolution... —l2
Had the proxies been called their numbers would (as we un-
derstood) have been

Contents
Non-contents
Majority of proxies in favour of the
motion
Majority present in favour of the
motion
Total majority for Ministers .. —3O
The Earl of CLANCARTY then proposed the following
amendment to the first clause And whereas, from the in-
sufficiency of room, or some other cause, the guardians of
the poor may be sometimes unable to afford relief within the
workhouse to all who are proper objects to be so relieved ; be it
enacted that if at any time it should be shown to the satis.
faction of the Poor-law Commissioners, that by reason of the
want of room in the workhouse for any more, adequate relief
cannot be afforded therein, or by reason of fever or infectious
disease, or are unfit for the reception of poor persons, or that
by reason of the dilapidated state of the workhouse suitable
accommodation cannot be afforded therein for the destitute
poor, it shall be lawful for the Commissioners to empower
the guardians for any time not exceeding six months
from the date of such order, to administer relief out of the
workhouse, to such destitute poor persons applying for relief,
as cannot be reeeived and maintained in it ; and they shall be
empowered accordingly to make provision for their relief for
the time specified in the order, provided that all relief given
out of the workhouse shall be given in food ; only save in any
case of sudden or urgent necessity, with power to the Com-
missioners to revoke the order within the period for which it
may have been issued, or to renew and extend the same from
time to time, so as to extend the period of its operation, as
the circumstances of the case may require."
Earl GREY opposed the amendment, on the ground that
the Bill, as it stood, effected the object which the Noble Earl
seemed to have in view, or the permanently disabled poor
would only receive relief out of the workhouse when it was
unable to receive them. The Bill had been carefully drawn up.
The amendment was negatived without a division.
The Earl of LUCAN then moved the following clauses—
" That for the purpose of charging the expense of relief to
every electoral division, no person shall after the passing of this
Act be deemed to have been resident in such electoral
division, unless during the three years before his admission to
the workhouse, or his receiving any relief whatever, he had
occupied some tenement within such division kr thirty calendar
months, or if he have not occupied such tenement, have slept
within such division for the space of thirty calendar months."
After a few words from several Noble Lords, the clause was
agreed to.
Lord MONTEAGLE moved a clause that no sums of money
granted fur the relief of destitute persons, should be applied for
the payment of rent.
After a few words from Earl GREY,
The clause was withdrawn, and the report was agreed to.
Several Bills were the❑ forwarded a stage, and
Their Lordships adjourned shortly after Half-past Ten
o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS. May 14.
The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four
o'clock.

The following Bills were read a second time, and
ordered to be committed :
British American Land Company.
Van Diemen's Land Company.