The Sun.
London, England, 1812-02-08 00:00:00

FINANCES.

The Noble Lord continued.—Before they enter-
ed upon the Order of the Day, he would take the
liberty of offering a few short observations relative
to the subjed of the Public Accounts then upon the
table.
The Noble Baron wished to call the.attention of
the .House to a single consideration. In referent's
to this he had called, their Lordships attention on an
early day of the Seision, to a comparative statement
which had been made of the aggregate amount of
tha revenue in the last and the preceding year. He
was fully aware of the superficial knowledge to be
derived from a mere comparison of the sums at the
bottoms of the printed statements f the year's re-
venue; but there was, however, unfortunately, suf-
ficient authority for learning the comparative pro-
duce of the Coniolidated Fund for the two last
years. In viewing this; the large pOrtion of the
Consolidated Fund which was applicable to what
was called the charges upon it, was a most impor-
tant Consideration. From the Papers now bctore
them it appearrd, that the increase of the charges
upon it, taking it in round numbers, exceeded one
million
.and - a half, while its decrease, compared
with its amount in the preceding year, was more
than- three millions and a half. 'That he was well
founded in these Calculation would appear from the
Papers, particularly No. 4. After some farther cat-
cniaiion on these points, he insisted that the state
of the finances was such, as ihat a speedy Parlta-
mentary investigation had become necessary, in or-
der that the cuuntry should be informed of its real
situation in that most important view; that it should

,
be aware of the enormous expence incurred :Duce
the Gevernalent had engaged in projects so destruc-
tive; that the increase of its funded and unfunded
debt should be accurately known, and at the aathas
time the gradual diminution of its means to meet
such an increased expehiliture. The keeping the
country in the dark in these respects Would but •
eventually aegravate the real- evils of its situation—, .
the real state of the country, with regard to its fie
!lances, should he knearn, before any adequate or
effectual steps could be taken to meet the exigencies
of that situation. -
The Earl of thetettotese differed from his Noble
Friend, as to the inferences he had -dfaen front
the. Official documents -before Parliament. It was
extraordinary that his Noble Friend bad drawn his
alarming picture of the financial elate of the country
from dor:Meet-its which .he said afforded but a very
superficial knowledge! A very diffeeitt conclusion
should be drawn from the leading point on 'which
,his Noble Fi ieticl had laid such s reas, namely, the
Comparatite statement of the produs-e of the last with
the preceding year: No general inference could be
fairly drawn from such a cenfirred and partial state.
went ; a more ettenaive range was necessary. The
Noble Earl glen made some. detailed relate nces
the financial documents upon. the table, aed argued
therefrom, that the difference which appeared in the
produce of the two years' in question, arose frern
particular • and contingent
.circumstances arising
within the period ; and therefore was in no way in-
dicative of a deterioration of the finances of the
country, or a diminution of its general proseeritys.
He contended, that when the generialeubject should
regularly come under discussion,• there would be
found, instead of grounds for alarm
.and disniay,
grounds for triumph arid satisfaction ; that it would
appear the finances of the country Were less burthen-
ed proportionably by the :war from 1803 to the pre-
sent year, than by any preceding course of hostili-
ties. With respect to any decrease in the national
resources,- be was at a loss to It now" w hat particular
blanch of the revenue his Noble Friend could point
out to establish such an inference. The considera-
tion of the produce of that part of the,Excise, aris-
ing from imported articles, in 18 to, did not furnish
an adequate ground, when compared with those of
18 t I ; :as the•importations, in these respects, in the
latter year exceeded those of 1810, in a greater pies-
portion than was ever known in the instance of any
preceding years.
' The Earl of LAUDERDALE loudly contended itt
favour of tire accuracy of his Noble Friend's eaten-. .
lations and inferences, against the arguments of the
Noble Earl who spoke last.
On the motion of the Archbishop of CANTER- -
bury, the Thanks of the House were ordered to be
given to the Lord Bishop of Chichester, for the
.ex-
cellenwSermon preached by him before their Lord-
ships, on Wednesday the sth ins!ant.
ROYAL HO.USEROLD ULU.
The. Order of the Day on which their Lordships
were summoned, being read—
The Earl of LIVERPOOL rose to call the particular
attention of their Lordships to this Bill, which stood .
for a third reading, and eith which two other Bills,
also before their Lordships, were in some degree
inseparably connected. His Lordship at considerable
lengiJi, adverted ..to the proceedings which had
takenplace„in.an early part of last Session, in con-
sequence of the calamitous indisposition of his Ma-
jesty; and-out of which necessarily arose the mea-
sures now before their Lordships. The hills before
their Lordships; he said, re!erred to a two-fold oh-
jea, the One, he said, for the erection of an esta-
blishment fitting for the maintenance of that due
degree of dignity and personal comfort which shotald
await hi, Majesty, and the other for an arrangement
for vestrig the far greater portion of the Civil List •
in the Prince Regent, with reference to the general
administration of the Government of the coun-
try. • In viewing the subject we are to consider
as the, basisaak the Fro:ceding, we .should bear in
mind that_ the, much p ized and wished for reco-
very 'of an. afflicted So ereign is yet possible, and
that on the possibility of -his yet resuming ,his
Royal Authotity, any proceeding concurred in by
this House ought to be founded. gut, independent of
this, we ale bound to consider and to look to this
state of the thing as a possible event. With respect
to the Civil List, then, we are to consider that r
was granted to his Majesty (Cr Ole term of Its na-
tural life ; and for two objets, the one for the sup.
port :of the personal dignity and comfort of the So-
vereign, and-the other for the expences of the due
administration of the Civil Government of the coun-
try. This-I conceive to be a leading principle in—
the regulation of our proceedings. Year wilt first
have to consider what is. necessary end proper for
the• preaent dignity and comfort of the Sovereign
even in his present unhappy situation. Yeu will
regard this, it I may use the expression, as a sort uf
lieu upon the Civil List. In .considering this ques-
tion, the, first point that naturally presents itself is,
what is_the fitting establishment, which, under the
present circumstances, it is proper 'to provide for
our Sovereign In this view of the,queation many
considerations are included ; and sure, I am, it would
be an injustice to the feelings of this 1-10u,e, and
of the peowle at large, it I were not to believe that
every attention weuld be paid to these considera-
tions, that are equally due to the Monarch on the
Throne, as well as to the circumstances which ac-
company him under the very severe afflictions with
which he has bean visited by Provid. sex, compa-
tible with iris Royal dignity and comfort, and which
are due in justice and honour, to his •enct to your
own character and honour. You are Sc. took at this
as a -provision to be made for one who, though a
sick King, is yet a King. You are bound to con-
sider the possibility of recovery, and farther, of the
inter mediate stages of recovery. between the state of
sickoess in which be now is placed, and a s are of
comparative health, in a state wherein tie may be
enabled to ellpy the cOintols- of era faintly and of

his friends about him; and sure I am that in any
arrangement proper for such an occasion, your con-
co! • r nee may be confidently expeaed." -. The
Noble Secretary of State then proceeded to explain
the outline and leading provisions of the Bill (which
have been repeatedly before our Readers), and the
different expeuces attending the arrangement, which
were founded on the best data that could be .ob-
tained ; as to the former expenditure, due provision
was ',Jade by the Bill for the• present dignity and
comfort of the affliCted Sovereign, by securing to hint
a certain proportion of the Royal Household (of
which he stated the particidars), and for vesting the
remainder of the Civil List in his Royal Highness
the Prince Regent, for the due Administration of-
the Guternment of the country. The whole of
the arrangements were formed at the same time
with et ery pra&icable attention to economy,- though
a principle which, perhaps, on an occasion like
the present, should have less weight than on any
other.` The whole, he repeated, proceeded on the
principle of a possible recovery of the Sovereign,
arid necessarily, a possible resumption of the Royal
Authority. The arrangement with respect to the
Civil List,' to continue while the Government was
vested in the Piince, as Regent ; on the demise of
the Crown, of course, the whole would form a
new question, and the rights which would devolve
to the Prince-Regent, as Sovereign of the country,
would, of course be duly considered and attended to.
His Lordship adterted to what had taken place from
time to time with respell to the excesses of the Civil
List expenditure. Much of what bad occurred he did
not
.approve of—he thought the subjea had never
yet been fully and fairly met. The time should be
considered when the Civil List was originally ar-
ranged ; and with 'reference to the great, the im-
mense difference in the expenses of every thing
which had occurred in the long lapse of time. He
would put the question to any Gentleman in the
country, whether the excesses which had occa-
sionally taken place, were in the least surprising ?
After a variety of farther appropriate remarks on
this part of tile' subject, and on some collateral
considerations connected with the whole, the No-
ble Ertl concluded by moving the third reading of
the Bill.

Lord GRENVILLE said. he' would not enter into
any detailed observations on the subject. With
much of what had fallen from the Noble Secre-
tary of State, he concurred ; on other points he
decidedly differed from him ; and this difference
of opinion principally arose from the, essential dif-
ference between we case as it now presented itself
to the Hcuse, and as it stood in 1789, and in the
beginning i)f the last year. He concurred -in the
sentiment, that, it should be considered the provision
was be made for a sick King, who, in that af-
ii;,ing aituatiou, should be environed upon consti-
tutional as well as personal grounds, with 'a due
degree of splendour 'and dignity. In the principal
of what had fallen from the Noble Secretary respect-
ing the Civil List, he agreed, being decidedly',6l opi-
nion, that public difficulties could never be removed,
if they were not fairly koked at, or kept out of
sight. -In all that regarded the personal comfort
and dignitt of the Sovereign, it was impossible, be
th-ought, there could be a dissentient voice. It was
doe to him personally.as Sovereign, and constitu-
tiondlly in contemplation of the kingly charaeter !
Revrti: g to the topic of. the Civil List, his Lord-
ship alluded to the praCtice of our ancestors, who
were :lot for blending the expenses of the Civil Ad-
ministration of the country, with the expenses of
the King's Household. Perhaps they were better
separate. 'He was aware that now such a thing was
impossible, the Civil List being granted to-his Ma-
jesty for life. He took a glance at what had been
the practice with respea to the Civil List in former
Administrations : and was of opinion that the sub-
jeEt should be considered, and every information -re-
lating thereto should as soon as possible be laid be-
fore Parliament, with a view of economizing as far
is was praaticable, and to endeavour to avert future
excesses in that braneh of the expenditure. Ihe
Noble Lord then summed up his objections to the
Bill, which were chiefly directed against the clauses
that transferred the whole of the Civil List to the
Regent, and took it from the King, while every
thing continued to be transaCted in the name and
on behalf of the King. It also involved a contra-
ditlion—that sum; should be drawn from the
Treasury, 'while the Commissioners of the Trea-
sury were invested" with no power to investigate
Or andit the accounts for which they s'aould be re-
sponsible.
Lords HARROWBY and LIVERPOOL, in explana-
tion, observed, that there might be some Mewl-
yenienCe and contradiction apparently in the of-

fices ; but had it been endeavoured more distil-161y
• to separate,, a 'much' more painful duty would be
imposed on the Prince Regent, than his Royal High-
Dels was now subjeLied to, which certainly was an
inconvenience which he conceived it to be the ge.
-rural wish to obviate.
Lord GRENVILLE said a few words in explana-
tion, alter which the other Orders of the Day
v.ere disposed of, and the House adjourned till
Monday.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

FRIDAY, FEB. 7.

The Chancery Clerks Regulation Bill was read a
firs! time, and ordered to be read a second time on
Monday.
The Deputy Usher of the Black Rod, summoned
the Speaker to the House of Lords, to hear the
Royal Assent given to certain Bills. On his return
he informed the House, that the Royal Assent had
bean given by Commission to the Exchequer Bills
Bills, and the Corn Distillation -Prohibiiion Bill.
On ►lse motion of Mr. CuortEri, the Naval Stores
Embezzlement Bill went through a Committee, the
report of which was ordered to be received on Mon-
(LI tvext.
Mr. MA NNlN.c.obtained leave to bring in a Bill (or
allowing farther time for theNcompletion of the work
At the London Docks.
The Lords A& Amendment Bill went through a
Committee, the report of which was brought up,
and ordered to be taken into farther consideration
on Friday next.
Mr. _WALLAGE brought in a Bill to amend the
•-
iOtilof the King, for regulating the mode of pay-
ment of the 1,500,0001. advanced afilOan to the
East India Company: Read a first, and ordered to
be read a second time on Monday.
the motion of Mr. W. POLE, certain Re

lartS

of the Commissioners of Inquiry in Ireland, pre-
sented _to the House on Friday last, were ordered
•
to be printed. fr
On the motion of Mr. CALCRAFT, RettlrilS of the
Regulars and Militia, as also of the Foreign and Co-
lonial Corps, specifying the number of each ; toge-
ther with Accounts of the number of Recrui.s raised
in the ordinary way, made up to December, 18t I,
were ordered to be 'before-the House. He also
moved for Returns of the Casualties in the Army, up
to the same time.—Ordered.

Mr. BANKES moved the second reading of-the

OFFICES IN REVERSION BILL,

Mr. W. DUNDAS understood, the Hon. Gentle-
man who brought this subjea for ward, had on a
former evening stated himself= not w be aware that
any opposition might be expeded. It there had
beep any understanding to that etre& he was no
party to it. He should expea more substantial
reasons than any he had yet heard from the Hon.
Gentleman befote he 'could give his vote for making
that permanent which had hitherto only been adopt--
ed as a temporary measure. He fluderstood the
measure which had-been adopted, to have origineted
in a wish of the Finance Committee ; that those
sinecure places Might not be granted in reversion
which subsequently they might think it expedient
to abolish, and therefore a suspension of the power,
of the Crown in this respea had been requested ;
now he would ask, could it be too-much to desire
that this branch of the prerogative of -the Crown
might not be des- rayed, at least till the embryo plans
of the Honourable •Gentleinan, who thought pto-
per to recommend silt a measure were known.—
It might so happen that when these plans were
brought forward, the House might be of opinion
they were such as ought not to be adopted, and tten
they .would stand in the predicament n 1 having
lopped off apart of the prerogative of the Crown,
without supplying in any other way the means of
rewarding long and meritorious services. The pre-
rogative of the Crown he conceived to be a part of
the rights of the Sovereign, and he thought the
House ought not to touch this branch of it till the
plan of what was to be substituted for it was known.
It was useless, moreover, to
,pass it there, as it
would -be thrown out in - the Lords. When it
left the House they knight bid the Bill fare-
well.

The Report of a former CommitteeOn the sub-
jea was here read by the Clerk.
Mr. BANKES denied thatehe measure had originat-
ed in any suggestion of the Committee ot Finance.
The Bill had not been brought in in consequence of
any pending inquiry, and the House had unani-
mously voted that it was not, fit the power of grant-
ing places in reversion should remain• longer to
the Crown. The-Honourable Gentleman had been
the first to oppose it, but in the first instance, the
Bill passed that. House without any opposition what-
ever. He (Mr. Bankes) then took a general sur-
vey of the history of the proceedings which had
taken place in the last Parhareent. on the sub-
jed, and then stated what had been its fate in, the
present, from which it appeared, that after it had
been thrown out more than once by' the Lords, in
order to prevent any difference between the two
Houses, the Commons gave way, and a temporary
measure was substituted for t hat which had previously
been proposed, int] thus, for the first time (in the
years 1808 or 180 e), it was made to depend in some
sort upon the • Committee of Finance. This,.
had been a favourite measure with the Com-
mons, and whrn it was found they could not make
the suspension of such grants perpetual, a tempo-
rary measure had been resorted to, without at all
abandoning the idea of making it permanent at a
tuture period. The circumstance of the Bill having
been thrown out two or three times by the Lords,
was no proof.that their :opposition to the measure
would be still continued. They might be convinced
that the measure was not so objectionable as it was
formerly thought, and if the present Bill were
thrown out in the Lords; it would still be time
enough to bring in a teMporary Suspension At in
the course of the present Session. The granting of
places in reversion was injurious to the public, as it
had the effe& of throwing theft into improper
hands, and thus converted efficient offices, which
ought to be held for the public benefit, into sine-
cures. This, in.the course of time, was the natural
consequence, as those to whom they were granted,
though fit for them at the time the grant was made,
became incapable of discharging the duties belonging
to them. by the time they fell ‘acaet. The mea-
sure he proposed, he' contended, would not have
the effed of injuring the Royal prerogative, but, on
the contrary, would eventually strengthen- it, and
put it in a better state of activity. By taking it for
granted that the measure must be thrown out in the
other House, they would seem to admit that they
bad discovered there was something goods. in
.the
system itself, and thus strengthened the principle
which opposed the Bill. It was never, he observed,
introduced as a measure of economy, any more than
the abolition of sinecures. The more the measure
was examined, the more would it bear out the Reso-
lutions of the Committee of March, 1807.
The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER aumateu
the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bankes) to be cor=ed in
what he had stated with respect to the manner in
which the former Bills had been thrown out; but
at the same time he was sure that lie would have
the eu,tice to recoiled that the feelingS on both sides,
of this question had been very highly coloured. To
him it had always appeared with the Hon. Gentle-
man, that whatever might be the policy, conveni-
ence, or advantage, of adopting the measure, every
statement made in its favour, on the ground of eco-
nomy, in or out of that House, was perfedly ground
less. It would not save one farthing of the public
. money, or relieve the burdens of the people in the
smallest degree. On this ground, now, he and his
Honourable Friend perfectly understood one another;
The other question, as to whether or not it would
diminish the influence of the Crown, had also been
very much aggravated, and the advantages and dis-
advantages on each side greatly magnified. 'His
opinion was, that in one case or in the other, in a
very little time, or at least in the course ot one ge-
neration, it would make no difference to the Crown.
He therefore thought the question of little import-
ance with a reference to the views entertained on
both sides of the question ; he thought they ought
not to prohibit the granting of,offices in reversion,
before it was determined whether or not sinecure
offices (the only offices to be disposed of) were to be
abolished; as it was not 'worth while to pais a law
to prevent such offices being granted in reversion one

day, and make one to abolish the offices themselves
the next. If the object involved a great constituti-
onal question, he argued with his Hon. Ft iend, that
it would be wrong for the House to hesitate on the
course they should pursue, and suffer themselves to
be deterred from persevering iu =that;Fwhich they.
conceived to be of importance by the circumstance
of their Bills having formerly been Thrown out in the
other House. Where, however.the. object in view
was one of little consequence, a desire to avoid any
thing like a disagreement with the other House
Might be some reason for-not pressing the_lmeasure,
,proposed. Stripped of the invortance which had
been given to it by the candid avowal of his Hon.
Friend, that it would not diminish. the influence,of
she Crown, and that it was not brought forward as
a measure of economy ; stripped of those consider-
ations, lie protested that to him it appeared too in-
significant to be worth the risk of a disagreement
with any one. It might be proper.
.to pause on
their proceedings, and to determine, if the measure
were taken up at all, whether it would not be better
taken up subiequenr to their decision on the question
respeding sineedre'• places, or carried on con-
jointly with the proceedings on that subje&. On
these grounds lie should oppose the second reading
of the Bill. .

Mr. BAN Kes, in explanation-, observed, that there
were several offices,..which it was proposed to abo-
lish. It it was continued to grant these in reversion,
this would be impraisticable. So far the measure
had a reference. to :economy._ _ _

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wished no
interruption to be given to the 'proceedings of the
Comtnittee on Sinecure Places, and had never been
against a temporary measure to make all perfedly
sale in that respeEt.

1..:4rd A. HAMILTON spokejaluour_ of the second
reading..
- - - - • -

Sir ANIUEL ROMILLY was astonished to find the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, as he thought the
subject of so little importance, conclude by oppos...
ing that which had, been a favourite measure with
the House and with the-country. It was a mea-
sure which would be beneficial to the King and to
the country. The public would be benefited by it,
as it would prevent. public offiCes being held by im-
proper persons, as many gained them by their being
granted in
_reversion, who were not qualified to fill
'them well, however equal to them they might have
been at the time the grant was made.
Mr. WHITBREAD observd; the Measure "hacronly-
been opposed by two persons, who %%ere themselves
reversionists. The Right Hon. Gentleman had
said it was unimportant if it was so; •as it- was
known to be what was desired by the county,
where was the policy of opposing it ? •As to what
had been said of its not_being a measure of econo-
my, he contended that the Right Hon. Gentleman
was a practical proof that the contrary was the fact.
to the event of the death of Lord Arden, the.office
held by that Noble Lord might be- regulated, had
not the reversion of it been granted to the Right
Hon.. Gentle Man. The Office of Paymaster of •Wi-
dows' Pensions, 'which bad .recently been given
away (and which he wished had not been sogiven
away) would have been regulated ,30 years ago,
had it,ppt been given 'away .itt reversion, and from
this it might be seen t e raea,s uP-NWiltllll.:ite—g rt
a measure of. economy. The pok‘er of granting
places in reversion was, he maintained, an impro-,
per forestalling of the prerogative of the Crown
what might pass in the Lords, the. House of
Commons had nothing to do. He-hoped the Right
Hon. Gentleman would not succeed in his opposi-
tion, and that the fill! would pass that House,What-
ever might be its fate in the other.

Mr. D. GIDDY observed, that the subject out of
doors was tegarded by the_ public with a jealous
eye. In his opinion, when it was considered as the
means of Irgitimate influence lo the Crown, nothing
could be more inefficacious, so that every cause con-
spired to render the passing of the Bill necessary,
and he trust it would pass.
Mr. BASTARD conceived Parliament were the best
judges of what ,was necesssary for the public interest.
Sir JOHN SEBRIGHT considered that the House
would act iocon,istently if they rejected the Bill.

Mr. W. ELLIOTT thought the power which was
given to the Crown, of granting Offices in Rever-
sion, was diSadvantageous to the Crown itself, be-
cause it afforded an opportunity to mortgage that
right to the successor. He did not mean to con-
tend that it wouta be desirous to abolish the power
of conferring rewards for meritorious services in re-
version, but those rewards would be* best Vested in
P,rliament. He agreed, however, with the Right.
Hon. Gentleman, that the subjea was not of much
moment under the present state of things, and,
therefore, should. vote for its, rejetiiCn.'
Mr. PONSONBY could not agree with the'Right
Hon. Gentleman, for he thought it a matter of
considerable importance, both in an economical
point of, view, but infinitely of more importance,
when viewed in aeonstitutional light. It • would
give the power to any. Minister to call to his aid
those resources, which, in days to come, ought to
be in the Crown, and consequently must be a mea-
sure. highly dangerous, and. injurious to the coun-
try. The reasoning of the Right floo. Gentleman
was not a little extraordinary. Forrne'rly he voted
for the adoption.of the Bill, because it was of little
importance ; he now voted against it for the same
reason ; therefore, it served his, purpose both ways.
However, in his (Mr. P.'s) opinion,
,it was not a
matter of! little importance to the House to have it
go out to the country, that having once cherished a
measure which was of Public- benefit, they..now re-
jeded it asteing of• little moment. The Right
Hor?.`Gentlemati shOuld suggest a .reason for its re-
jedion to
,satisfy the country, which would carry
with it greater weight than the One he now asSigned.
-The-consiatency of the House..was in question after
receiving the measure for four successive years, and
the, public might imagine that in rejeaing it now,
they, were under the influence of the Minister.
Such an opinion would tend to Icss'en and degrade
• the character of Parliament.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in ex-
planation, stated, that be had given his suppOrt to
it formerly in obedience to the pleasure of the House;
he had site .colletted that the subject was not
thought of so much moment elsewhere, and for the
same reason he did not think it was necessary: to
give it his support now. In the view which he
took of it then, it was not a measure of much prac-
tical economy, and, much less so now, whe,n it was
not in contemplation to aboli li the grant of 'offices
in rviersion,

The House then divided on the question, " That
the Bill be now read the second time"—
. Ayes
• • 52
Noes . . . 56
Majority against the motion I —4

The House again divided (during the exclusion
of stranger), as we understood upon a motion for
reading the Bill a second time on " this day six
montbs"--

A yes • 55
Noes • • 52
Majority in favour of the motion —3
There was another diyision, during the exclusion,
for adjourning it
Ayes - . • 44
Noes • 59
Majority againstjt —l4
THE 39111 OF ELIZABETH.
Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY rose to move for the re.
peal of the Aa of the 39th of Elizabeth, which
constitutes a capital offence, punishable with death,
in soldiers and sailors found begging in the streets.
The Honourable and Leerned Gentleman conceived
there could be tio objeClion to remove from the
Statuteßook an AO of this n store, which went to
a capital punishment on persons of this: des-
cription, who were wandering; or begging about the
streets, without a pass from their COmmanding Of-
ficers. : Tiro la vv had not, to be sure, be,,naiited up-
on since the ifith 'of Charles, which last Statute con-
tinued it, nor would the House deem it expedient
to continue A6ls which, in .the present tomes, never
could be thed upon. 11,11- Justice Blackstone, in
his woik, referring to this Statute, had said, it was. -•
•" a disgrace to the Legislature." Being on the suh-
jea of the Penal Laws, he would take this Oppiir-
tunity of stating, that it was not his intention at this.
moment to bring forward any of the Bills which he
had formerly done. In so retraining, he. had not
in the least altered his opinion as to the necessity of
amending the Criminal Code, nor was his perse-
verance or patience exhausted. He wished not to;
weary the House by Bills • which, from what had •
transpired, there- was no -chance or probability
,of
.passiags,the-wher trotcd, however,_
that the prejudices which now operated would sub- •
side, and in a little time be so removed, as to affoid,
hilt] the opportunity of persevering with effed.---
Perhaps in the next Session' he should bring the
subject again under the consideration of the House.
He then moved for leave to bring in a. Bill to repeal
'the Ael of the 39th of Elirrbeth, &c.
Mt. FRA'NKLINT, seconded the motion, and in so
doing would say a word Or two on. the subject. If
his • Hon. and Learned Friend had diligeutly in-
q'uired into and • examined the statutes, he would
'leave found that this A& was not in force, for the
second Act of Charles -to which he lia,4 referred
could,.upon examination, shew that it had expired.
Since Justice Blackstone wrote, it. had been vii
tually repealedby the 32d of thc King, whieh latter
Act expressly declares such persons iu be adjudged
as rogues and vagabonds. When the_ 39th-of Elite
zabexh was passed, it was the custom to des:gtiate
Persons and not crimes, for the Legislauire v.vs then
obliged to pass Acts of the kind from dire necessity•
It Was not intended' that it should operate in the or-,
,-
dinaiy way, but. was framed with humane
'for'it gave thoStr persons who had assembled in large
numbers, 'and committed divers-atrocities, time to ,
disperse ; the penalties of the Act not atto6.ing un-
til 4o days had expited. It was, he might say, a
sort of Legislative anTaTalidii7srWar agairst men in
open rebellion 'to all laws. Though these daring out-
rages formed the' grOund woik of the Act,which out,
rages- were not likely to. occur again in the pre'
sent order of society, 'might it not be expedient t. 0,,
adopt measures pointing to persons and not crimes ?
If we looked about at the present moment, not one
hundred miles distant; if, accidentally, persons Were
thrown out of employ, and through miserable igno.•
"ranee,. comrnitted'erimes upon the property of their
fOrmer employers, setting all laws at defiance, would.
it, not be expedient, to repress those evils ? MAO'
trates should recollect, that their duty was not sair•
weather duty. He trusted, however, that these
guided people were, in a great measure, returning. to
a sense of their duty to society. The Act in ques-
tion *as to be considered as a proclamation rather
than a law. •

Mr. LOCKHART thought the Honourable Gentle-
men had misconceived his Hon. and Learned F. tend
whose argument went to the disgrace of having;
such a Statute on the Books in the present state a
things. •
Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY observed that the Hott•
Gentleman had a veneration for the Statute of
beth, This was not the only Statute of that (4neeti
which must be considered a disgrace, for there utss
one he could refer the Hon. Gentleman to whica
made it a felonious ad in'any person lot ud in 1.101
company of Egyptians. There was another,
made it felony to commune with the Devil. Th 6
inflammatory language of thoie Ads was borrow cd
from her predecessors, Mary, and Henry VIII'.
With respell to the Statutes, he had looked On,
them as narrowly as his abilities would allow, an"
he would assert that the 16th of Charles cufflititiocl
this A6.t, fOr it-expressly said, " it shall be contl*
nued tilt Parliament makes some other law on the
subject." The Hon., and Learned Gentleman
thought-men's lives should. not le subject to such •
laws.-
Leave was then given to bring in.the Bill.
PENTETENTIARY HOUSES.
Mr. Secret,ry RYDEit moved, " That it be 20
instrndion to the Committee on Penitentiary Houses
to inquire into the state of punishment on board the
Hulks, to 'report their, opinions on-the same, to-
settler with what improvements they may deem b 6:
cess'ary." The Right Hon. Gentleman infortne"
Sir S. Romilly that the Committee had begun, and
were proceeding with their inquiries : but if 1.1'4
Hou. Friend wished to moved for another Cool'
mittee, he was at liberty so to do. 'With respect t°
the propriety of ereEting Penitentiary Houses, thilt
had been decidedupon in the vicinity of the metro-
polis, but as .to.the expediency of carrying them on
throughout the kingdom would depend- on the state
.olthe hulks. The whole must undergo a complete
. revision. The Right Honourable Secretaly obserY'
ledi that- he had stated on a former night, that m'°Y
itheatrocities which had occurred, were to be itl
• putted., to. the returned transports. He had made
that statement upon the authority of two magistrates.
Since then he understood that -there was great
di-
versity.of opinion among the magistrates in general
upon the subjeet,•and thetfore he.sould not state
that to be the fatt.