The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-16 00:00:00

to goon to Michigan, Illinois, lowa, Ohio, the llrkansost
and the other states on the Alississipi, He thought that.
this petition was eminently desorving of their Lord
ships' attention. He would take leave to direct their
Lordships' attention to another Point, and that was the
f
matter of registration, He found that the eaeess,
births over deaths was only some 160,000 in the 117
three years, and, when they took into consideration t •
number of persons who left this country it would be Teri
little short of that number. According to the retur?St
therefore, there needed not to be any great antioipattoll
of a superabundance of population.
Earl FETZ WILLIAM said there were one or two trsesel.
tions which he wee desirous of asking the Noble Earl•
understood that the petition emanated from 3,500 Perd so:
the
Were all of these heads of families? What proportion di_ dip
number of petitioners bear to the total population of e
°l'm*
trict in which they lived ? And what were the average
inns of each ? •
of fatailisa
Lord ASHBURTON believed that the number
ud
not
was pO, and that the individuals were 1,400. fie em
answer the Noble Earl's last question. Why th°
Lord BROUGHAM (looking over the petition)--
signatures are all in the same handwriting.—( Laughter. Lola
Lord MONTEAGLE trusted that the Government
trinity.
take measu, es to insure a complete system of reg's-iied bi
Local and general business was at present much imp .6 the
the defective system of registration, and not only
mere numerical department wrong, hut for matters ords;ith
parivon—as regarded the census of one year compared been
another-it was altogether worthless. The census u_ aka'
taken three or four times in Ireland, but as it had Was to be
each time by different parties, the results were (o°4 bee
irreconcilable and utterly useless as data. He h°pe
tWt
ever, now teligions animosities bad materially sues'" datioes
the Government would carry out this recoma° obit'
A greater number of persons would emigrate this Jereroly
during massy past years, but this would not act as would
for the existing distress, as those who would esoigrate_..Stall
do so voluntarily ; and as they were persons of small solidi,
they would deprive, by their removal, the home nuteirnot fail
advantage of their capital; therefore, the result 00° Inv
to be injurious. But there were particular localities° great
land in which the excess of population and distress efes:e iseds
that no steps they could take for the improvement of t,.,0 glee
or for the promotion of peace, would afford anythiog messy
quate relief, sinless the Government gave many of them Were of
of emigrating. The promoters of the Irish poorslavr.olted,i°
this opinion, as the Government of Lord Melbourne sea
support of it, that that they looked to emigration o_, which
teral evil. They must not, however, measure the gono loft
would accrue to a district, by the number of persous: °us test•
it, for the purpose of emigrating, as this was a falls.s„c")iine,
—( Hear, hear.) As, however, the subject tea, tr. treyto;
tant to be dealt with in a mere conversation. noisy 01
in the course of the present year, to have an opPuV,ids the
discussing it in connexion with the measures
Government intended to introduce with respect to tte.a,s so or
Lord STANLEY hoped he would not be undelltult.„ jefe°
ptecating emigration. He did not fear that any 012
result would take place from local efforts and local boar 7, the
the contrary, he hoped that a clause would be insertsn% "eet to
Poor-law at present under the consideration of Par""-Ss fah
promote emigration by local means. What he depreest sa*
that Government should interfere and hold out assistance
large scale. 5,.,11'014
After a few words in explanation from Lord ASHous I,o°
The Earl of DEVON ;.resented a petition, signed ulro,pea
or 1,400 cottiers from the barony of Farney, on the,P Ohl°
of Mr. Shirley, praying that some measure be made ;sets!
them to emigrate. With respect to the statement wilt
evenings ago, by a Noble and Learned Lord (Brooglutts_4o to
respect to emigrants receiving 2s. 6d. a head to come. tog
this country, he had two letters in his hand frotael°l:4
agents which showed that the money was only part °'d
sum which the emigrants were entitled to receive, s°
was a remittance from their friends in America. sstion ss°,
Lord BROUGHAM said that on the present (1°"„eols:
had received a letter from a correspondent from We 'jbe
relation to the emigration of Irish poor into that to Os',
letter was from a gentleman of high authority in thi
niest
he stated that with regard to the passage of the rosteeLa
instances the passage money was paid for then' rre tin
Ireland ; others paid it for themselves. The latter we et., ch..
intending to emigrate to America. In no case, hcle•lostssle,
his (Lord Brougham's) correspondent know of a sine of
of the poor persons being brought over at the iostanee,:beitif
proprietors of steam-boats, on the speculation of thgtobtOil
sent back, and their fares paid by this country. Air'e ilidtbeeS
said he did not believe such had ever been clone. ""sosta
(Lord Brougham) think that it had, though it bad he`ssid as,
otherwise. In one case it was said that 75/. had beeozsocl.s
the passage of 610 persons, or at the rate of about
•,-`'''oo tSe
head. Of the poor persons thus brought over, there, in orb
classes—one class being those who came to Liverpee!tote
to emigrate to America, and the other class the destilli op, tit
spread over this country. Now, he would add AW° ost
subject of emigration abroad. It was a nThiest's,'''S
portaut, but at the same time a difficult enlf
still it was one of pressing importance, considering, Otolouit
state of Ireland, but the demand for labourers in the The'"
The paper for which he had moved would show this' ssr
was at present a great emigration going forvrard, asuot bite;
thing they did they should take care that this was pot
t s
feral with. Still they should see that they did not Pr.,sef wet
far in that direction. He would remark that One Prsppefo
emigration from Ireland was most alarming, 0 ' „;„e pe°,:se
many of the emigrants were small capitalists, who
they could together, and left without paying their ten in the',
the executions served on them by their landlords o'o nee;
pockets. He had been astounded at tt e fact that,
I fob
recently, 8,000 persons, from Ireland, had left Lieelr-etbs
America. These constituted about one half of the
had come over to Liverpool. some °I;
Lord MOUNTCASHEL expressed a hope dt- e
tern of emigration would be adopted, as it was itortesessstit
'stbs
~
Ireland could support its present population. It wss its ite.
that the Government should take the subject into
serious consideration. which Preei
Earl RIPON was glad at seeing the good spirit
...,steol ,
veiled on the present question. He believed 1."_57 dot;
emigration, judiciously managed, would have the best jog's,
still it was one they should deal with cautiously.. "
it undoubseosou
to emigration to the United States, thongs' rants th •
possessed greater advantages for absorbing the e•ssigovenalene.
the colonies, still it should be observed that tb,
they g ther •
would have no control over the emigrants w --- ding tue
when to
as to their maintenance on arrival, in for War st
their destination. He did not think" any etuigra- untri'
public expense could be undertaken with that c° ses
and therefore it would be - for them to vio
what could be done with the comadas• oo fair
was undoubtedly the best field, as Australia was "-cools
and the Cape of Good Hope, though a desirable coloultistioto
not possess sufficient capacity for absorbing a large P°Pussse t°
He hoped that the Government would devise a meal Or
meet the case, and to provide facilities for those who 01 g
sire to settle in the colonies.
The subject then dropped.
The Loan Bill and the Consolidated Fund Bill passed Or
committee.
Their Lordships adjourned.

HOUSE O COMMONS, March 510
POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.--4).E
RESUMED. nn• ions uP4911
Captain JONES, in rising to state ms -riantion of th°
this subject, could not but express bis
nci:irile would,
lion. Baronet who had just sat uow--:, adruiratl
at the same time, express his great ire;
also S be
also for the conduct of the English Pe°.it'bout
as for that of the Government, for ,„t,d,
hb
• energetic proceedings which they had a"rib- eca
(lid not hesitate to say, that without erisl3B°'
large portion of the Irish people would ho"hrere were
- It appeared that on the 9th of January, 1847' [janue',V
101,189 persons in the woikhouse,but the 9th 0:,
1845, tho numbers in the workhouse were 0n1Y,,,
Now, it was clear that if 5,1 d. was the charge .In' th'
when there were only 43,764 personi recto
workhouse, it must of course be considerah'
iile
for 101,189 persons. It was simple
throe question, and it would be found that tr1.1",.c The
upon property amounted to 14d., instead of duper
charge for the maintenance of each Pant e
ery,
a considerably more in the press ye ea
than in the year 1845, and previetial ,rofelf
He must say that the existing poor-law h ";ilpr,`,
o quitef
which
,s)sufficientui(s)hneleesorllrsl,.e,fo(
00 reodel
wheret ar ins thetda,
hnl ures
Houseubtfolu?t.tutnied
tendo
tht of
te 1845unr 0;1,9:
430b6f t: ,h;of
containinguCnoimo nm-
no more than 43,000. AllegatiotthiTse,Yhheasocewt'wucinerirreY,Chcelnattst:
made in that House to the effect that some of t-11(,'actut091.,
had not been opened in sufficient time, and
persons had been sent away without relief. 10
mitted that there were some cases of the forta'r f fief
but, with a single exception, ho did not kilt3"l re ea
instances whatevef persons ei refuse, J
He was not suhjectr too the animadveb rsinong s which ":10 rha
passed by the Noble Lord upon these gentlenle" flat:be
signed the resolutions, for he he had not taken any' stibe
meetings in Palace-yard, or in Dublin. Yet be n'-en
same time, say that he agreed with those gentle% red,,t,
subject of out-door relief, but he found fault with tt Chef de'
lutions more for what they did not contain than what it i
He was of opinion that they should have, in the o"(tbe
ry
dared that the people were entitled to relief out vosPrilte
they should then have showed how far a poor-Idled, that„
able, instead of appearing to think, as they a'''''notbi°o;
Govenment should do everything, and the gentl,l
(Hear, hear.) Long before the distress occurreu, „chi) t;o1I
opinion that they should give relief to every insittne a tecitri
the workhouse test, and few would be found to co thal
time if they could avoid it. Be thought it safe to Pdoor tie to
but no further ; he was not willing to agree to "t faillre
indiscriminately, for they would not have a single„ t, to
the whole of Ireland who would not expect that tvtbt r° ;en
individuals would not receive some relief. They ou'v e 41106
put the applicant upon a better footing than the rtaintrjeat
and his firm belief was they would do so if thelt,,i.l3ilLile
system as proposed. If Government would alter to`iief
as to provide that there should be no out-deor ren
there was room in the workhouse, he should ho,ive„;°lo" of
tion whatever to it. lie would not detain the ri°,-t-re tief', to
but he, having had some experience in the atlroin'%gdatl
the existing poor-laws in Ireland, had felt it ,it
say thus much upon the plan now before the noose- iydit';;li
Mr. VILLIERS STEWART said that he Per,c: bY :nrbe
his name was attached to the resolution come "ea it t-'4
Members against the Government Bill, but be wisbf„,. it loe.„1r,
understood that he had never given any authority or it
ruyeti
placed there. It had been agreed in that House throe eolii
law Guardians had not been anxious to carry 00., 131 ohera
intrusted to them. He would not, as far as It bscl
power, countenance a charge against guardian!• to si.,yr
asserted in many places, the guardians had reftseubt Aprolit
the poor until compelled by a mandamus. It Inigogs snot
extraordinary to an English Member, that such th' t_
t
be, but a very little inquiry would satisfy rod 10
the occurrence was the consequence of the esecatio
of the Commissioners towards the guardians in the root
of the great powers intrusted to them. There had lojorter,,
a bad feeling between the guardians and the Como', reoloii'.,
and instances of harsh treatment on the one side, ann.f,t, his 0.,11,
strance and complaints on the other, had come u t's
nervation. Many Members were aware that there W 4, teele„
liar feeling in the Irish character, and that was, tha':„i,hboul.
mars had a potato to share he would share it with his 1,11;ioe rc,
rather than allow him to go into the workhouse. 400:Lea%
themselves had a strong objection to enter the vq,"
The poor-law was never much to the taste of the Irisnt,tire so,J,
against their habits, and the people would rather eobu_
privation than go into a building where they would
,:ritig!L
supported by charity, and subjected to disgrace by
al f
He had troubled the House with these observations Pr'::rought:
for the sake of clearing the guardians from any chargeoruooic;
againstthem. He was in favour of producing some meas.'', for
t f
would afford out-door relief, and take away the necessi Y
i •
poor entering a workhouse for the purpose of receiving be ele
He believed, also, that a system of emigration rnes,:_erty
couraged, for in many cases it would be ruinous to pr l'„),
support all the poor that might become ehargeabice%trie
from want of means to remove themselves to those °,!..
where they would obtain more, and better employlnet:_loot.
heartily supported the measure introduced by the Gaye I.',,eres,
Mr. HA lILTON was anxious to make a
tious before going into the question of out-door