The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-02 00:00:00

--see result would he.ve been also different, and what had now been
It o,l!ecessful, -would have been successful.
he CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER having
replied,
„ol‘hl% FUME said that they should get the best terms for the
they could, and if they had put up the loan so as to rai,.e
th'.°lnpetition, they would probably have got better tems. He,
ehZefoneere, did consider that the publie did not get a fair
2 ~str. 'WILLIAMS considered that there had been no corn-
nee, if
it, was not a secret, he would desire to know who
thv'The
parties were who made the offer for the loan.
, he CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said; that it
,„w!„,ao secret, for that it was probably very well known by the
Daring,
the that they were the Messrs. Rothschild and the Messrs.
-string,
tbeAr.fter some conversation the resolution was agreed to, and
Her resumed.
RELIEF IRELAND BILL.
raiL?toflrctihoeuerPd(e)r°olfthe day that the House do go into a corn-
the Poor Relief Ireland Bill,
ietent•• j°lssN RUSSELL said that he did not rise with any
House of provoking a discussion, but in order t let the
tio,B
_anow earlier than it otherwise would what his inten •
en Mgr re, he proposed that they should go into committee
milt day next, and that they at present would go into com-
it 4,1 ro forma, With respect to the first clause of the bill,
tieirs,,,ueen suggested that although the guardians were
that
too. to relieve the destitute out of the workhouse, yet, t
us• to might arise where owing to the workhouse being filled,
Illardi ever' it would be impossible to fill it, and the
„,s_ve ans, therefore, refuse to give relief. In order to
tr such mistakes from occurring, a clause should be in-
topitsithZ•t:tehetiitbiialigty of relief to be afforded to the full extent of the
alter
Yof the union. In clause 9, the Government propose
place
persons to be rated. They proposed to
saseent charge of maintaining the poor up to a certain
Gd. Pew.,tll electoral district, but that where it exceeded
large. Tmh,.4-`•e 'pound it should be charged to the union at
guardian. 4S also proposed to alter the number of er-ggicio
Inagist- In England, all magistrates, who served as
of gis 'lles s
in the 'on' were members of the board
te artlian In union,
however, they were elected
I;y"hatli! number of one-third of the board.
trues tithe Government propo•ed was, that the magis:
They elected to the number of one half of the whole body.
7' ru.',,!aold likewise introduce a clause similar to that in the
Metier:lap Relief Bill, giving power to the Government to r!-
(ay, er,,,uard of guardians for the non-performance of their
was Placing paid guardians to act in their stead. There
padeneraoutrbither point to which he would allude. The House were
hi England poor relief was not given to persons who
The ps'Acient means of subsistence of their own.
itles.4,ltlSe might recollect that it was proposed by the Hon.
pe4..4,47i for Dublin that no relief should be given to persons
rowahove half an acre of land. If they said that iser-
Istuld beould be required to possess any land whatever, there
wouldb then a danger that some, indeed many, poor persons,
!plot
of e deprived of the occupation of a cottage, or their little
I)ersettfartien- On the other hand, should relief be given to
banger Prlssessed of any land whatever, there would be a
enceuragement to persons of small
roe-si would), would, as had been suggested to him,
contort ''tu,gerous to the general prospeeity of the
to our:the small holdings had been represented
-"C. I; •of
inust prominent evils in Ireland. Between those
tb'ev'e.a!asts 01 ding- the Government were undecided, and
iiest,,,,-,'sned to take some time for consideration. Her Ma-
lkin': u°rerntnent, however, felt the necessity of some defini-
Wool: !0 what class of persons should be entitled to relief. He
504 tu In conclusion, propose to go into Committee pro. fol:oto,
is 1, ey should then proceed with the other two Bias as quickly
ressibie
trb
•,„ ss
' said that he understood the preposition of the
the it. '-ord to be as follows: With reference to
4'll whit clause, he intended to grant relief to
tight° might require it. Now, he would suggest
Atto relief would necessitate a law of settlement.
rißilPjesent, the House should recollect, there was no absoluted
• to relief existing in Ireland. With regard to the second
ihe Perfectly acquiesced in it ; and with respect to
Ihle
,Muth eiause, that no relief should be charged as far as poss.
1414:4,,ur"Ireedi,°efoarlitv' and that where it exceeded a certain sum
Cos then it shonld be charged upon the union at large, h. e a.lso
such a anstiantepiprlees.ent advised he saw no tangible objection
• sdir,,llCillEßT PEEL wished to know whether. the Nobilne
,t; Ora the vestry the same right in the union as theyhad
ekgiand
tl 11:. SHAW asked whether he was to enderstand by the
e which refused relief to those holding land., if those. in
het "'ion of certain small holdings would be entitled to relief,
40, that all with large holdings, above a certain amount, should
',be emitted to relief?
1-.°ll JOHN RUSSELL said, in regard to the first question
jethe Ilion. and Learned Gentleman, in reference to the
regency giving the right of out-door relief, the guardians were
sso-lretl to give out-door relief when the workhouse was full.
,kg
t‘... reit necessary to make this provision, supposing such a
tit; should arise as that the people might be starving, at a
e When they could not be admitted into the workhouse. It
narctians
• to m
eet an emergency of that kind, and to empower the
lto give relief out of door. As to the question put
the tshe Right Hon. Baronet, he said it would not be exactly
slit 'ante as it was in England, for in England there was this
P:recce, that relief was given in full ; but it was. not the
otio n of the Government to make it exactly stainer in
dlr• JOHN O'CONNELL thought that the clause intro-
.... Tug ex-officio guardians would work very badly in Ireland ;
the feared, that as regarded religious questions and reli-
tta instructions to the inmates of the workhouse, he hoped
Zt Government would introduce some means which would
trotect the inmates in that respect.
Sir DENHANI NORREYS said he was surprised at the
Noble Lord in the way he had been guided in introducing the
eating clauses into the Bill. That Noble Lord had partially
brought the question before the House, and he was bound to
have taken the opinion of the House ; but he understood
that he had allowed himself to be guided by some of the
Irish Members. Had he taken the opinion of the whole Irish
Party, perhaps complaint would have been out of place; but he
ought, knowing the complaints made from Ireland on the sub-
Jed, to have brought it before the House, and given them an
4uPpertunity of akinz their statements and laying down their
"tettin upon. it.rn In common sense and justice, the Noble
tO--such
was bound to have •aken this course, and not to have set-
-- such a question in his private closet. He might say it was
ot
e settled; but the Noble Lord had made up his mind, and he
House,
were
forward with his opinions and pressed them upon the
hsileuse, and they not likely to be able to change them. He
ad lost all conidence in him as a leader. All the confidence
Which had been begotten by his conduct on the Factory Bill,
the Maynooth Bill, and other questions.
Mr. M, J. O'CONNELL said the Hon. Gentleman wished
to have discussion, and he promised he would have an oppotux.
hekWitnts
hoped to see the question of rating, uf a uniform rate,
• ugh t before the H o use. His opinion was, that any patching
and tinkering of a measure would be injurious, as they would
ilnd out ere five years had elapsed.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN could not allow that opportunity
tteL.P.ass without protesting against the proposed constitution of
board of guardians. The Noble Lord, it was well known,
had the popular support for his Government, and yet he came
L6rwa d with proposition to make one-third or one• fourth of
whole beard ex officio members, and thereby bade.. for
they
would be elected byg the ratepayers, and if they did not have
Ceseclofidence of the poor and the ratepayers, they ought net
er guardians.
Le:t. POWLETT SCROPE said that many improvements
Ite-tue,ea made in the Bill—many more had yet to be ma
must observe that in those made already,
rwl thole, allowed that evening by the Noble Lord,
Hitt concessions had been made in favour of
The raedlord. There was one, however, which he must
tieiwiii'm with all prnminency in justice to the Noble Lord, via ,
the which gave the right of out-door relief, at least, where
workhouse was full. As in England, so in Ireland, he was
et.4-13PY where the law was that no one should be allowed to
r
tii"te, for then the poor man might in either country claim
tflelet under the law. At the same time he did not think that
one bie Lord would have left it to the guardians to starve
theClauseThera was a ver • large concession in favour of the prr.
f Was one clause whichgave the Commissioners the right
IPordering outdoor relief to gall classes of the poor. That was
.Pitt advantage and much in favour of the poor, but he was
%rip' to see it limited only to times when the workhouse wasd
reit cir when it might be considered dangerous to a -
Coe nThre in case of infection from fever. The next
du e,zion in favour of the ratepayer was, the clause intro-
,,e'llg the ex officio guardians. That, he considered. was a great
p°-,seeiwical, and one from which he doubted not but that the
biers would suffer. Another concession was, that small far-
theie should not be allowed to claim relief unless they gave up
didr laud. That was not a provision in the Scottish law, it
sewn, t require the poor farmer to give up his croft before it
Jo allow relief.
R
• MAULS.—It does not allow relief.
u2r' 13. SCROPE.—Yes ; but it did not make it neces-
.yfor the small farmer, previous to his receiving aid, to give
°la croft ; and for saying that he was supported by the last re-
vert of the Poor-law Commissioners' inquiry for Scotland. If
Ireland th law should be that frmers of hree or fur acres
of land, ands there were severala hundredst of such in that
tselwirY—if it should be necessary for such to give up their
the 'ls, if the fell into circumstances of difficulty and distress,
11,freet woyuld be ruinous, and the law would be most unpo-
fl,tr- Another clause in the Bill worthy of attention, was
a...bt.tzhi^h confines the out-door relief to the permanently die-
he did not know exactly how that phrase. permanently
e
disabl d might be explained, for it was a new distinction in the
lew• Butthis he knew, that it
distinguished a very small por-
tion of the poor recipients of relief in England. The Poar-law
Commissioners in this country had divided all the classes of the
Poor into nine, and this class of permanently disabled
formed but fee of these. He was sorry to think that this pro-
vision would offer but very inadequate relief to the class of
Persons who ought really to have come under that designation,
and he regretted it the ore so as Governmen, by taking
Proper steps, and making m
adequate provision fort the poor in
their own country, would have adopted the best means of pre-
yenting the crowds of poor that immigrated into this country
In search of the relief which they could not obtain in their
native land. One thing he was anxious to know from the
Noble Lord was, what steps he meant to take for the sup-
re"luo of mendicancy arid vagrancy ? lie recollected
that ;
'n the Poor-law Bill introduced by the Noble
—ord. in December 1t037, there were clauses introduced for the
ZlPPression of mendicancy and vagrancy. and that the Noble
elf", upon that occasion based the whole Bill upon these
auses, and principle of suppressing these. The clauses in
(Itlestien were however expunged after they left the Commons,
the
House of Lords, ani passed without them in 1538.
tilivainfgutsuariedeteheuassimenuch,he would postpone what he had to say
M.
LEFROY had a question to 'ask of the Noble. Lord at
• e "ead of the Government. It was, how far was it his inten-
Potha the workhouse test should be carried out before out-
was relief was grantet ? lie hoped also that while this matter
Zas properly attended to, the subject of union-rating would be
considered ; as the system of electoral voting was much de-
siredNi by the people of Ireland.
• r• CALLAGHAN wished to say a few words on the
Point of anion-rating. He had lately presented a petition from
we citizens of Cork fur a more extensive system of rating than
eTen union-rating. He was decidedly of opinion that unless a
Pneral aystern of rating was established, there would be no
Peace or satifectien in Ireland. He also regretted to hear the
proposal of the Government fur increasing the number of
intqficio guardians, as it would cause great dissatisfaction, and
haadedri:eneispteairties on to the boards who in many instances would
e
ow interest in the raising of the rates they were called on
•
re—,llr'
0F ITZGERALD agreed with the Government in the
f rating proposed in the Bill.
Lioau dswerJOHN to a
Rquestion from Mr. SHAW,
con! iriIUSSELL said the Government had under
erasion a Vagrancy Ae' for Ireland.
The
House then went itito Commi•tee on the Bill.
Bill was agreed to pro forma, and ordered to be re-
etuarnitted on Monday next.
L LANDED PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL.
foe ~°„rsl JOHN RUSSELL moved that the order of the day
enoZSinst into Committee on this Bill be read, in order to post-
till Monday next.
Thr. SMITH O'BRIEN complained of the postponement
„ Rill. and considered great inconvenience would arise
—c• As the p rs,nt time the wr.t. en,:age,l o,t
in ly
of an UtiprodUCtiVet -nature, and every si.4 loss
serious
Settlement of the present Bill would be inflicting a
loos injury on Ireland. With respect to the poor-law pro-
posed, that was not a measure to enrich Ireland.