The Sun.
London, England, 1841-05-11 00:00:00

duties on foreign sugar. It was proposed to lay on
ino did t h
Lord a t he e couldw ms
calculated not a y t htaot
conferthe
appreciableadopted
higher a duty than 12s. per cwt. beyond what was m-
Noble
posed on sugar from our own colomes. That, he was lief, and that there were no just grounds for expecting
told, was no protection at all, on account of the greater
resolution
eorluetts
of
fhhicihs hNeodhelt:F ieilerd,ntd the Memberhatheshould forvote Liver-
tries foritehre_
quantity of saccharine matter produced in foreign coun-
tries than in our colonies. There were other grounds pool.—(Hear, hear.)
yLAßques°till'onCHEbefoßreET
on which he objected to the proposed scheme. Hroe_
thought, if the finances of the country had been pro- the the House,
cHoonfoseses,alSlidr,tthheatoniflyl thoughtmotires
Noble F 'e d
amel that being agreed at a crisis of
perly managed, there would have been no need of the al- which could influence its decision, were those stated by my
terations • and he was satisfied of the incompetency of n —.n y,
those who produced the mischief to remedy it.— greathieh cwoamsmtoerchieal
(Hear, hear.) Without proposing to alter the Corn-laws. w
differencepallurdsuefidn,atnliceialonldyiffieu
lty on
ot
fh e courseopinion
he must confess himself to be favourable to some between us was this—whether there were not special cir-
change in them, although the amount of duty he was cumstances connected with the sugar trade which should
disposed to support would depend on what was done
be
with exempt it from the operation of principles which we allow
the present
Poor-lawßill. A Noble Lord (Darlington) to just and necessary, as applied to other branches
the other night was so kind as to speak in terms of high of commerce and industry in this country—l say if I could
approbation of a contest in which he (Mr. W.) was believe that was the state of the question at this moment,
personally concerned, and thought that the result of that I should feel, I will not say entirely indifferent, but cer-
contest might have influenced Ministers in the course
tainly comparatively indifferent, with regard to the deci-
they had adopted. Whether such was the case or not, sion to which the House might come. But it is be-
it did not become him to say ; but of this he was cer- cause from various symptoms, and especially from decla-
tain, that the issue of that election, and the consideration rations made in the course of this debate, and even
of the principles which decided it, ought to influence this night—it is because I have heard a Gentleman repre-
Hon. Members on both sides of the House. senting other great protecting interests come forward and
Lord F. EGERTON, the commencement of whose state that they considered this was a case which was
observations were not Audible in the gallery, was under- common to them all—that he found there was, on the
stood to say, that he had listened to the able speech of ' part of the manufacturing and commercial interests of
the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies this country, a growing opinion now forcing itself on the
with that attention with which he always did, attention of the Legislature, that it was necessary without
and to the speech of the Right Honourable delay to take meesures for an alteration or revision of our
Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and commercial and financial system generally,—l say, when
it appeared to him that the subject they introduced was I see the advocates of these important interests saying
classified by them under the head of " deficiency in the they will admit of ne touter .wise—that they will hear of
revenue," which they proposed to make up and relieve no concession—(Hear, hear)—that they will oppose a
the consumers of this country by lowering the price of relaxation in the sugar duties, not from any refined spe-
the commodity named. With respect to the first of culation with regard to its effects on slavery or the slave-
those he confessed that it was a question that would trade, but because they consider that in defend-
puzzle a more expert financier than himself to deal with. ing the sugar duties they are defending their own
He would not, therefore, trouble the House with system of monopoly and exclusion,—when I see those
that part of the subject. It was true that the Noble Lord things, I confess that Ido look with the utmost anxiety
said that there was an alarming and painful deficiency, to the course which the House may pursue upon the
but that had arisen from causes over which they had no present occasion. When I consider the importance of
control, but had arisen from causes in which they (the the question, I do not desire to make it a matter for
Opposition) had participated as largely as themselves party calculation ; nor shall I enter into those allega-
(the Ministers). All the extra expenses which had been tions bandied from one side of the House to the other.
incurred was supported by the other side •of the At the same time there have been accusations brought
House. That was, after all, a mere accusation. against the party to which I belong, which I feel it my
When certain & emergencies occurred, involving the duty to notice. We have been told that the Whigs are
honour and commercial existence of this country, always talking about free trade, but, somehow or other,
they (the Opposition) did not oppose measures it happens that when they are in office, free trade mea-
proposed for their remedy. Canada, they were told, was sures are never carried ; while, on the contrary, when
a subject of expense originating in causes which were the Tories are in office, if they bring forward any mea-
brought into existence fifty years ago. He (Lord F. sures of a liberal nature with regard to commercial po-
Egerton) thought that some of the discontents and diffi- licy, they succeed in carrying those measures, I con-
culties originated in the conduct of those from whom the sider that they admit of a very easy solution.—(Hear.)
Noble Lord sought his best support. With respect to Sir, I have been long enough in this House to
China, he considered it an open subject for any discus- remember Mr. Huskisson's exertions on the subject, and
sion that might affect the conduct of Ministers. With I am sure that no one will deny my representation of
respect to the second division of the subject—relief to the the state of things at that time. I remember Mr.
consumers of this country—it was a question of higher Huskisson as a Tory Minister bringing forward those
interest than any other consideration. When the Noble great views and sagacious measures, which must ever
Lord brought the subject before the House, he (Lord F. endear his name and memory to the whole of his
Egerton) thought that he devoted more energy to the country. I remember him bringing them forward
topics than he generally did. The Noble Lord drew a with the sullen and reluctant acquiescence of the
picture of the operative turning away in disappointment great body of his own party.—(lVlinisteral cheering.)
and despair at the excessively high price of the commo- I remember that he received the honest, warm,
dity. It was not the business of the Noble Lord to de- and cordial support of his political opponents.—
bate the question as he had debated it—to call the atten- (Loud cheers.) They did not raise petty cavils
tion of the House to the more cheering prospect of the upon his great measures ; they knew what a matter of
supply of sugar for the next season—but it was his busi- difficulty any alteration in our commercial policy is ;
ness to show, with his usual ability, the prat- they knew that on such a subject nothing could be
tical and appreciable relief that would result more unworthy than to cavil upon details ; and although
from the measure which he proposed.—(Hear.) there were many points on which they did not think
So far as he could calculate, the reduction in the price of that he altogether carried out their principles into full
sugar, which would follow from the proposed measure, effect, they felt that it was but just, that it was but their
would not amount to more than six-tenths of a farthing duty, to that statesman who had the courage to look
in the pound, which would not make the average reduc- into the face of those great protective interests in this
tion for each individual in the kingdom amount to more country, when he believed that the privileges they en-
than 2i-d. per year. He did not undervalue that reduc- joyed would bring nothing but ruin into the country,
tion, provided the measure by which it was to be effected to give him their cordial and disinterested support.—
were not liable to other grave, and as he (Lor F. Eger- (Cheers.) I think this difference of conduct between
ton) considered insurmountable objections. The Noble the two parties may account for that which was made
Lord, the Secretary for the Colonies, attempted to de- matter of taunt and accusation against us.—(Cheers.)
prive every Member on that (the Opposition) side of the The Hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Colquhoun) told
House, with the exception of the Noble Lord the Mem- us to-night that we had brought no measure of improved
ber for for North Lancashire, of any right to advocate commercial policy of any consequence before the House
the cause of the enslaved negroes. Now for his (Lord during the ten years we have been in office. Sir, I re-
F. Egerton's) part, ..he had not, like the Right Hon. member, and some Hon. Gentlemen opposite must re-
Gentleman, the Member for the Tower Hamlets, grown member, the Noble Lord the Member for North
grey in that cause, but he knew no reason why he Lancashire (Lord Stanley) and the Right Hon. Baronet
should be deprived of his right to read the work of Mr. the Member for Pembroke (Sir J. Graham) must re-
Gurney, and to draw from it his own conclusions. It member, that a great and important measure of com-
appeared to him that it had been made out almost to mercial policy was brought forward by the Government,
demonstration, that the Noble Lord was now taking a I allude of course to the Timber Duties.—(Cheers.) The
course which, as far as regarded the article under con- measure then brought forward closely resembled the
sideration, would positively give not merely a stimulus to measure now brought forward by the Government. It is
the employment of slaves, but would give a stimules to that my belief that if that measure had been carried, then
worst feature of the case the traffic in slavery in the co- the greatest benefit would have resulted to the country.
lonies, which would not only give a bonus to Cuba itself; —(Hear, and cheers.) But unfortunately that was not
that plague spot of the world, the centre and the focus the case. It was quite true that the Right Hon. Mem-
of the trade, but extend that worst of all crimes ever com- ber for Tamworth (Sir R. Peel) and the gentlemen who
witted by man. It was impossible, in his opinion, for then acted with him, did not on principle oppose that
those who had paid the least attention to that great sub- measure, but they used that convenient plea which is
ject, which it was impossible and which it would be always employed by those who do not wish to give direct
indefensible to overlook, not to see that the proposed opposition to a measure, but still wish to defeat,it, that
measure would aggravate an evil already so great. A they were not satisfied without inquiry, and because it
great difference of opinion had certainly been expressed was not sent to a Committee up stairs, the measure was
in that House on that subject. The Hon. Member for refused.—(Cheers.) I think this refusal of the first
Wigan and the Hon. Member for London, however, had great measure of trade brought forward by the Whig
that night treated the question with the seriousness Government was not very encouraging to them to persist
which it deserved, and had expressed their sentiments, in a similar course—(Hear, hear)—and feeling, as every
founded on philosophical principles of their own, that the Government ought to do, that unless the case was an
cause of humanity to the slave and ultimate suppression of urgent one, and the interests of the country generally
the slave-trade, would be advanced by the measure which were suffering from a want of proper alteration, that it
the Noble Lord had proposed, by an extension of corn; was no slight evil to bring forward a measure of this
mercial intercourse in those commodities which are the kind unless it were brought to a successful
production, of that slave-trade. He could not follow those issue.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition.) I say
deductions, and he could not assent to those propositions. that under these circumstances nothing would have justi-
He should admit, however, that the subject was treated fled the Government in doing so, except their common
by them with ability, and in that tone which became the sense of the state of the country was such, that it was
discussion of such a question. He was somewhat sur- absolutely necessary that such a measure should be
prised on a former occasion to have been compelled to passed by the Legislature, and that otherwise the most
consider that it had been treated in a tone of levity by serious consequences must ensue to the commerce of the
the Hon. Member for Lambeth—(Hear, hear)--which he conntry. I believed that it had reached that state—
(Lord F. Egerton) thought unsuitable to the occasion. (Cheers)—and I repeat what I said before, that lam a
The Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies had re- strong party man. I wish to see the party with whom I
cently entered into a dissertation on the state of the repre- have always acted, maintained in power, but I declare
sentation of the metropolitan boroughs, and had uttered that such is my solemn conviction of the absolute neces-
some very strong opinions on the results of that portion of sity in the present state of trade and manufactures, and
the Reform Bill which had given representatives to these in the pubhc feeling of the country, that we should in-
boroughs. It was not for him (Lord F. Egerton) to deal out troduce a thorough and searching reform into our com-
any criticism on that subject, but he should say that the mercial system, that I should that I should think that
complaint then made by the Noble Lord was at least a the happiest day of my life when I saw these principles
strange and anomalous one. The Hon. Member for Lam- fairly acted upon by those to whom I have always been
beth gave it as his opinion that the Right Hon. Gentleman politically opposed, if they occupied the seat of power
the Member for the Tower Hamlets, might perhaps main- and I trust that I should give them as cordial, sincere,
taro that slavery was in itself sinful, and that it ought not and honest support as I now give to the measure of those
be encouraged ; no very unreasonable proposition cer- to whom lam both personally and politically attached.
tainly, and no very extravagant one for the Right Hon. —(Cheers.) But, perhaps, lam a little wandering from
Member for the Tower Hamlets to maintain—(Hear, the subject matter before the House. Sir, I will corn-
hear)—but the Honourable Member for Lambeth mence by endeavouring to relieve the Government, and
said that that was a principle which all bigots myself in particular, from the accusations which have
might appeal to for enforcing their own opi- been brought against us in the course of this debate by
'lions. They might call upon the House to pass several gentlemen, and by which it has been attempted
Acts of uniformity, for the purpose of settling to raise a prejudice against the measure before the
matters of faith and ceremonials ;_ and on the same ground House. It has been stated that the Government have
the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the Tower dealt unfairly by the great interests involved in this
Hamlets might come forward with enactments to en- question, that they have been taken by surprise,
force the suppression of the slave trade. Now it was and that our conduct had led them to assume that
not necessary for him (Lord F. Egerton) to enter into no alteration would be made in the sugar duties. This,
any defence of the Right Hon. Gentleman, but he might I think, is a fair statement of the accusation against us,
be allowed to say that the attempt would be superflous, and the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hogg), who is an East In-
as he had never heard a vindication more able and more dia Director, quoted a speech I made on the sugar duties
complete than that which the Right Hon. Gentleman had last year, as a proof of my inconsistency. I think I have
himself made.---(Hear, hear.) He would ask whether it a right to complain of the manner in which he did so,
was a false, a fictitious, and spurious humanity which for a more garbled account .of a speech I never heard.
made them shrink and hesitate before they interfered in The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Tamworth,
what he should consider a most critical moment for also alluded to the speech, and did me the justice to say
that great experiment—a moment when they might hope that in his opinion there was nothing in the speech to
that in the West Indies the throes of parturition were preclude me from the course I have felt it my duty to
over, and that the time had come when they might bless take on the present occasion.—(Cheers.) But, Sir, I
Providence for the success which had attended their efforts ? can state other facts to show the House that at
It was not a want of philanthropy which induced them to any rate these interests have not been taken by sur-
pause before adopting a course which might fatally interfere prise. Why, the Right Hon Gentleman (Mr. Goul-
with those results. The Noble Lord the Secretary for burn) whom I saw cheering these sentiments last night,
the Colonies no doubt was at present actively employed presented fifteen petitions from Jamaica and other West
in endeavouring, as far as the resources of diplomacy India colonies, in which the petitioners stated that they
enabled him, to check, in other quarters of the world, a were abundantly satisfied that the Government were
similar traffic to that of the African slave-trade. He about to alter the sugar duties. It struck me as extra-
had no doubt but the Noble Lord, for instance, was using ordinary, that these petitions should have been forth-
his influence with the Sultan, and that good-humoured coming on the present occasion ; but it appears they had
old gentleman who governed Egypt, to effect a cessation, been lying in the drawer of the Right Hon. Gentleman,
or at least a mitigation, and, ultimately, the extir- and were brought forth to be discharged on the present
pation of a system which prevailed in Africa, and occasion. I must also say, that, in the course of the
across the Atlantic Ocean. They had heard, the present year, I received many intimations froin gentle-
in hother day, from a distinguished public officer who men connected with the West Indian interest, and they
ad been employed on the coast of Syria, that, almost universally asked if I would not pledge myself
a conversation with the Pacha, the latter stated that the sugar duties should not be altered in the pre
that he hated the slave trade, but that he wished sent Session. My answer was, that I could give no
to get time for its abolition—that he could not do pledge of the sort, and that the Government would deal
these things in a hurry. The example of Eng- with the question as they should think necessary.
land was doubtless quoted to him and made its due im- But there was one declaration made before the last two
pression. But the Pacha was acquainted with the affairs years of so much importance, that I will venture to read
of England, and he would soon be enabled to say, if the it to the House, and I will put it to any fair man whether
Noble Lord's measure were carried by a majority of that it is not of itself a complete exposition of the views and
House, that though England had emancipated her slaves sentiments of her Majesty's Government. This speech
at a great national expense, and had thus given a bril- was delivered in the House of Commons in 1839 by Mr.
liant example to the rest of Europe, that when difficulties Poulett Thomson, then President of the Board of
overtook her she had, for the sake of a reduction of six- Trade. He said that "he admitted that it was a matter
tenths of a farthing on the pound of sugar, abandoned of great importance, and one which would be forced on
the great experiment they had made.—(Hear, hear.) the attention of the country in a short period. In the
let them pass that measure, and they would lose that ele- first place, this was a matter which would force itself on
yated station which they held in the Courts of Europe— the attention of the Government, as connected with the
let them pais that measure, and they would descend from Treaty of Brazil. The present Treaty was of a tempo-
the high ground which they held in Egypt and in Con- nary character, and would expire in 1842 ; and if we en-
stantinople--let them pass that measure, and for hu- tered into fresh relations with that important State, this
inanity and consistency he believed they would do well was a subject which must be considered. The exports to that
to go much further. He should say that what he had country were upwards of 4,000,0001., and were the most
heard from to Hon. Member for London induced him to important, with the exception of the United States. The
form conclusions very different from those to which the produce of Brazil was confined to sugar and coffee, and
Hon. Gentleman himself came, for he thought his state- when they came to the period at which the treaty was
ment showed that it would be more humane to allow about to expire, this subject must force itself on the at- -
Weir slave tiaressels to issue once more from Liverpool tention of the House. The other branch of the subject
under proper, restrictions and with Government inspec- was also a matter of deep importance—namely, the short
tors, if they willed, and to legitimize the traffic, than to give supply of colonial sugar. It was important to look at this
to it in its present illegal form the encouragement question, but he was satisfied it must be forced on the at-
which would be the result of the proposal of her Ma- tention of the Government 'and the Legislature, if not by
jesty's Ministers. The West Indians too might call the wants of the people of this country at any rate by the
upon them, in removing all restrictions, to remove the treaty of Brazil, and he trusted it would be most fairly and
restriction imposed upon them of not employing slave fully treated, and in a way which a matter of so much im-
labour. They might tell them that when they wanted portance deserved, when it came for the con-
them to compete with Cuba they would be ready to do sideration of the House."—(Loud cheers.) Sir, I think,
so—that they would be ready to contend with the with that consistent reserve it is important
fertility of the soil of that island, which need only be the Government should observe on matters relating to
renewed after a term of fifty years, while their own changes in trade, it is scarcely possible to have given
should be renewed every four years—but that it would a more full notice than members of the Government at
be fair in the first place to place them on an equal different times have given to the House on the present
footing with their soopetitors. They had lately collected subject.—(Cheers.) Sir, I certainly could have thought
the rank and the Talent of the country in Exeter Hall, and myself almost relieved from the necessity of arguing the
the
had brought the first subject in the realm to head the pha- propriety of a change in the sugar duties with refe
lanx for the purpose of discountenancing the slave trade, to the interests of the consumer and the revenue.
It
and they could not now abandon the cause which they appears to me so obvious that on all general principles
had advocated. They had given the name of the Prince a differential duty of 50 per cent. ad valorem on such an
gracefully and properly to that vessel which they had article as sugar is a state of things so unsound, and that
House in ar4uing
equipped for its mission of mercy--
the evils which must ensue are almost so inevitable, that
God and the good angels guide her as she goes. I must be wasting the time of the
For not of conquest greedy or of gain a proposition that is almost self-evident.—(Cheers.)
Seeks she the distant world ; But, Gentlemen, though admitting that if they merely
but he should say they would do well to abandon the en- took the question with regard to the revenue
terprise if they acceded to the measure then under their no strong case could be made out against the alteration,
,f-Pnsideration. It was for these reasons, thinking s ha yet think, they can arrive at a different conclusion on the