The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-20 00:00:00

CAPTAIN WYNNE.

On the motion of Mr. C. 0. O'BRIEN, the follow-
ing returns were ordered ;--Copies of the several re-
solutions of the Liscannor Relief Committee, of the
county of Clare, forwarded to Captain Wynne, inspect-
ing officer, or to Samuel Gamble, Esq., district engi-
neer, dnring the months of October, November, and De-
cember, 1846, and January, 1847, and of the several letters
addressed by the chairman or secretary of the said com-
mittee to the said Captain Wynne, and Samuel Gamble,
Esq., respectively, and of their replies respectively to the
said resolutions or letters. Also of copies of the revised and
supplementary list of labourers recommended by the said
committee, or employed on the several works within the
said district, as furnished by the said committee to Captain
Wynne, distinguishing the labourers put on from each list,
at the instance of the said committee, as also those put on
by the said Captain Wynne or Samuel Gamble, Esq., in-
depenpent of such recommendation; and like% ise to move
for copies of all charges proferred by the said committee
against Patrick liPMahon, steward, and - Warren,
overseer, in the said district, and of the report made
thereon by the officers of the board, and the decision of
the board in consequence of such report ; and stating
whether the said Patrick &Mahon and - Warren,
or either of them, are now in the employment of the
board, and if so, in what district and capacity. Also,
for a copy of the document referred to in Capt. Wynne's
special report of the investigation held at Liscannor, on
the 17th day of December, 1846, and included in ,the
return to the order of this House of the 11th of February'
list. •

COUNTY COURTS.
Mr. BOUVERIE obtained leave to bring in a Bill to
amend the Acts for the erection of County Courts.
GREENWICH HOSPITAL.
On the motion of Captain PECHELL, the following
return was ordered:—Return of the several sums for
freight money received by the Treasurer of Greenwich
Hospital since the 29th day of November, 1837, with
the date of such payments, and whether on public or
private account ; also, the name of the ship or vessel in
which the treasure was conveyed, and of the captain or
officer commanding the same.
THE SALVAGE OF THE THETIS. *
Captain PECHELL postponed his motion for the
production of the Bill of the Bill of the Admiralty re-
sp.cting the salvsge of the Thetis till that day week.

ENGLISH POOR-LAW.
Sir GEORGE GREY gave notice that, on Thursday
he 29th, he would introduce a Bill for an alteration of

the mode of administering the relief of the p.:,or iti Eog-
laacl and WLles.

GOVERNMENT PLAN OF EDUCATION.
Mr. BRIGHT presented a petition to which he wished to
call the attention of the Noble Lord at the head of the Go-
vernment, it was signed by 500 of the delegates who had
recently met to oppose the Government plan of education.
Alderman Kershaw in the chair. It prayed that no
grant of poste inonsy might be made to carry cut the
order in Coon: it ; and cued on the 1 lowa- to take
measures to have the Minutes revoked. te had also a
petition against the education grant from the city of
Durham, signed by from 17,000 to 18,000 inhabitants.
He also presented one to the same effect from Sheffield,
with 17,500 signatures.
Lord H. -VANE presented a petition from Stockton-
upon-Tees to the same effect.
ADJOURNED DEBATE.
On the motion for the House resolving itself into a
Committee of Supply,
Mr. E W ART rose, and in moving that in any measure
for general education, it is expedient that schoolmasters
and inspectors be not made the instruments of religious
instruction, but that such religious instruction by the
clergy of the different denominations, to whom every
facility for imparting it should be given in tho
several schools; also, that it is extremely de-
sirable iu any general education scheme, that a
local representative system, by means of district bodies
and through the instrumentality of an education rate, be
ad.epted : that it is not desirable that schoolmasters
should receive retiring pensions (or occasional gratui-
ties) from the Government. : that appointments under
Government be not reserved (as proposed in the mi-
nutes) for unsuccessful candidates for exhibitions in
the Normal Schools alone ; but be thrown
open to general free competion, on the principle
of impartial examination—said that he was desirous
of approaching this subject with a calmness propro-
tionate to its importance, and to the degree of excite-
ment which it had created throughout the country.
There was, in his opinion, no question which required a
degree of deliberation equal to that which should be de-
voted to the subject of education, and he trusted that,
whatever might be the sentiment on this most vital
question, those who were the sincere friends of educa-
tion would cal innly and dispassionately consider
that which was the best for the common good.
He was himself one of those who had always been the
firm and ardent supporter of a system or National Edu-
cation. The plan evidently affected the system of paro-
chial rating, and if it were to be carried out, that would
certainly be by far the better mode to adopt. The
same system existed in France, and was to a
certain extent used in the direction of the grammar
schools from this country. But be it good, or
be it bad, M. Guzoit had adopted it.—(hear.)
in the Government schemes of the country which he bad
directed, and the whole of the system for education there
was more or less founded on the representative system.
The same principle prevailed more or less in Holland,
Germany, and America, and he trusted that it would
ultimately be used in this country. Be had not, without
much deliberation and hesitation, come to this opinion, hut
he believed that the Gave rnment ought to have embodied a
more general principle in the plan which they had
adopted, than any which had been propounded in the
present debate. He had always felt that it was the duty
of Government to assist, but not to interfere—to inter-
pose, if he might use so refined a distinction, but not to
interfere. In this point, thefore, the Government pro-
ject was defective. It did too much or too little,
and either way it fell short of its object.—(hear.)
In the next place he thought any system of education
should be purely English and national in its character.
They could not impart exotic systems like that adopted
by the Prussian Government. Let them recollect
that they were legislating for England, not
for continental countries. He would have the
Government, as it were, from the nucleus of a system of
national education, and would leave the agencies of the
people free and uncontrolled. He would call out their
energies as much as possible, and leave them entirely
free ; and, lastly, that the Government should not
interfere in matters of opinion ; and, last of
all, should it interfere in matters of religious
opinions. He thought that in encouraging a system of
education it should rather give the people the means of
forming opinions than endeavour to supply them with
religious or educational opinions of any kind whatever.
He should, therefore, proceed to deal with the Govern
merit plan, and to consicer how far it accorded
with these principles. The essential ingredients of the
measure ware the introduction of pupil-teachers, stipen
diary monitors, and provision for aged schoolmasters.
This was the leading element or skeleton of the
measure. It was said that this would endow the
Government and the tChurch with a degree
of control over the education of the people.
Now, he had maturely considered the schemes,
and he did not think that the objections made against
this portion of the plan were jusitied by the facts of the
case, because he did not see how the State
could unduly control the pupil teachers, sti-
pendiary monitors, or normal schoolmasters,
elected from the pupil-teachers became the managers of
the schools, who would be entrusted with the distribu-
tion of the grants, and not the State would have the
distribution of them. Then again, he did not see
bow the Church could interfere with the schools,
because the instruction and support of the
some schools would be in the hands of other persons
those connected with the Established Church, so that
the Church could not interfere with the system of edu-
cation pursued in dissenting schools. The Church,
it was true, might come in for a larger
share of the start voted, but that would
In an incidental circumstance if it occurred. He
confessed he a ished that the distribution could
be more equal, but he conceived that that was
no argument against the justice of the measure.
The leading feature of the scheme was the establishment
of normal teachers and stipendiary monitors. lie had been
very anxious to see this accomplished, having the greatest
pt efetence for the character Of the schoolmaster, and
believing that rt ally to influence education they should
begin as this point, and improve the character of the
schoolmaster before they hoped to improve that of the
pupil. He therefore did not oppose this part of the pro-
position. Nor did he oppose that part of the scheme
which established schools of industry, whether
they were agricultural or otherwise, in the rural districts.
This, he was of opinion, was a sound proposition, and
he gave it his support. Again, the establishment of
schools in workhouses and prisons was a system
which deserved the support of every one, for there
were no places where they were more wanted.
He had now stated those parts of the measure to which
he gave his adhesion, and he should therefore state
those to which be offered his objection. He objected
generally that a schoolmaster should be a teacher
of reiigion.—(Hear, hear.) It was not his pro-
per province to meddle with theoretical doctrines.
It might be enough, as was done in Ireland,
to permit him to instruct in the general principles of
religion. If they could agree about those Christian
principles which ought to influence the lives of all—it
they could establish a kind of neutral ground —on
which various religions can meet as on a com-
mon basis why then they should teach them
But he objected that the schoolmaster should be made
the instrument of theology. It had been said, let the
Scriptures be read every day to the schools, but he was
very much afraid that it would become a mere task of
wrote, and the repetition would prevent it from
sinking into their hearts in the manner that it should.
This system had been tried in Holland ; and those
who had read the report of Mr. Poussein were
aware that there they first made the schoolmaster the
minister of religion in schools, but in a year or two
afterwards they were obliged to alter the plan,
and admit the clergymen of ;different denominations,
and the :s) stem worked in the most eft; cttral
manner, and had done ever since. When that great move-
ment to the liberality of the people of Liver-
pool, the corporation schools were established
the clergy of different denominations were admitted to
instruct the scholars in the place where the pupils rata,
on the common grounds of secular instruction; and they
thus learned that charitable intercourse between the sects
which bound them in the bonds of union like one &mit).
He objected to the sort of gratuity to the school-
masters, for while he had no objection to preserving
their emoluments, he objected to the doing away
with their independence. He had another great
objection, that clause which ordered that where pupil-
teachers were ui.fitted for the offices of teachers they
should still has. a chance in some of the offices
connected with the excise or the customs. They
he thought was offering a premium to the less able indi-
viduals to offer themselves for these schools, because it
was in effect saying, "if you are not fitted for the one
you will at all events be eligible for the other." He
thought that all Government situations should be thowu
open to public competition.
ILEFT SPEAKING.]

SUDDEN DEATH OF MR. ARNOTT, or CHATHAM
DoCxYlatD.—Mr. Carter yesterday held an inquiry at the
Clayton Ardis, Kennigton-oval, on the body of Mr. Robert
Arnott, aged 70, master carpenter of the dockyard at Chat-
ham. Susan Austen, housemaid to Edward Russell, Esq.,
24, Kennington-oval, stated that the deceased had been
staying with Mr. Russell on a visit, Mrs. Russell being his
daughter. On Friday he had been out in the forenoon, and
was apparently Hell. In the evening, about seven o'clock,
she was called down stairs, and then found the deceased
lying on his back, and quite dead. Ile had apparently been
in the act of smoking a pipe, for he had one lighted in his
hand. She sent the groom for Mr. Duke, the surgeon, of
Ilarleyford-place, who came immediately, but his skill was
of no avail. Mr. Arnott's son said his father had come up
from Chatham for a change of air, and he considered he had
been declining in health. Verdict—" Natural death."
IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE. OF LORDS, April 19.
OXFORD AND BIRMINGHAM RAILWAY.
Lord LYNDHURST, who was very imperfectly heard,
was understood to refer to the Committee of Inquiry
which bad been recently appointed on this railway, and
to state that he had been considering the objection which
had been made as to the propriety of discontinuing the
labour, of that Committee, in consequence of the matters
in dispute between the North• Western and Great
Western Railway Companies being still pending in the
Court of Chancery, and was of op►nion that the inquiry
should not be abandoned-

Lord REDESDALE said that he was not in the House
when the Committee was appointed, otherwise he would
have opposed the motion, as he thought that the prin-
ciple which it reeognilsell was a dangerous one, and that
the House should not interfere with the legal possession
of property. With these few remarks he should con-
clude, and if there was any opposition to his motion, he
should not feel justified in pushing the matter to a deci-
sion before their Lordships.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that it was right
to state to their Lordships that the question which had
been raised in the Court of Chancery, and which was
now pending before him, was, as to who were the legal
directory of the Oxford and Dirrainglwe Railway. Thu

question would, in all probability be decided in the
course of the prusent week, and he thought, therefore,
tat it would not be wise in their Lordships to conic to
a decision which might, very probably, interfere with
the jurisdiction of a court of law. It would seem
admirable to him, therefore, to postpone the considera-
tion of the matter until after the decision of the Court of
Chancery.
Lord LYNDHURST said thskt the Vi3e-Chancellor
to a decision that the directors, who had been
eleeted in October, should go out in October, end it
seemed, therefore, desirable ou all hands, that their Lord-
ships should not interfere, while the matter was pending
in the Court of Chancery.
The matter then dropped.
GOVERNMENT EDUCATION SCHEME.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented petitions
in fermi. of the plan for Mansfield, Bridgewater, and s
great :,umber of other place::; as also brveral egainstit.
Lard BItOUGHANI wished to inquire what deter-
mination the Government had come to respecting the
use of the auth, rised version of the Scriptures. Lie
also wished to inquire whether there was any change in
tho Minutes of Council of 1839; and suggested that
such alteration would materially aff:ct the votes of the
House of Commons.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said there had been
.
no change whatever in the Minutes of Council; for, with
respect to the authorised version, the rule was sufficiently
established; and with respect to the money that was
necessary to carry the plan out, the House of Commons
would at all times have the means at their command for
directing it, and could bring their influence to bear uPell
it from year to year.
Lord BROUGHAM believed that the Ministry weekd
.
not surely take any step in so important a matter withal'
the sanction of Parliament.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE conceived that so
the whole of the plan would yearly be subjected to the
consideration of the House of Commons, that it was al:
necessary to bring it in, in any other shape, before thei'
Lordships.

POOR-LAW.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that be had
anoth4 r petition to present, which was of a very different
cliaraL ter. It was against the Poor-law Removal Billy
and he would take that opportunity of stating that es
(here were two Bills bearing upon this subject, one for
the c,xtens;on of the poor-19w in Ireland, and the other to
enable landed proprietors to dispose of their estates with
more facility than they now possessed, which might peg"
sibly clash with each other, he proposed to take Lb•
second reading of them both on the same day, and wok'
therefore fix them for Thursday next.
Lord. STANLEY-presented several petitions, both for
and against the Irish poor-law.
The Earl of RADNOR presented several petitions
against the Government scheme of education.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE presented four petitions t°
the same effect.

CUSTOM DUTIES.
The Earl of EGLINTON moved for certain re-
turns connected with the Custom Duties, which were
agreed to.
CASE OF CATHERINE FOSTER.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH said he wished to
direct the attention of the Government to the exectli
tion of an unfortunate woman on Saturday 104 e
Bury St. Edmunds. It appeared from the newePsch e
rs
that upwards of 10,000 persons were present.
execution was conducted in such a manner as to Pro-
long the sufferings of the unfortunate creature for!
considerable space of time ; and the assemblage of Pe'.
sons were so struck and horrified at the circumstance'
that they called out shame, shame, murdbr, murder:
He was one of those persons who unfortunately though:
that this mode of punishing crime ought to be °PS
nued, but still he thought the sufferings of the unforty
nate beings who came to those untimely ends should 14
he protracted by the carelessness of brutality of the ela.
eutioner. A short time ago a similar case to this oe'
curred, and on its being brought under the attention 0
the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the.
Home Department, a promise was given that the matte:
,hould be looked into, and measures taken to rep verithe
recurrence of such a proceeding. Many years ago
was quartered in the town of Sligo when an unfortunate
man was brought out for execution. The drop bell
exceedingly high, the ropo broke, and the Inild
:ell into the street, breaking both legs, IL,
fracturing several of his ribs, and yet in that state
was carried up again, and the sentence of the law ex
,e 0
cuted upon him. A similar case having occurred in tut,
very heart of the kingdom, he thought it was a prep
occasion upon which to call' upon the GOVerI3WOLIt
take steps to prevent a recurrence of such scenes.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said Governole.r.j.-5
would cause a careful inquiry to be made into the cir-
cumstances. cumstances. He agreed with his Noble Frieud 111::
while it was necessary to continue this mode of Pem*,
went, it ought to be carried out with all due solemnity
and caution.
The subject thenMUTI dropped.
NY BILL.
(this day).
and the report
w aTs hoirsdßeri
el ld wt
oe nbe t
bhr roc,: igghht Committee,
uP to-morrow
MARINE MUTINY BILL.
This Bill went through Committee, and the report WO
ordered to be brought up to morrow (this day).
Several Bills were advanced a stage, and their Lord?
ships adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS. April 19.
GOVERNMENT PLAN OF EDUCATION.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL then proceeded to the order
of the day. lie said—Sir, I will now proceed to
propose to read the order of the day with
the view of proposing in Committee a resolu-
tion for education. In doing so, the House, I
trust, will bear e ith me, and give me its indulgence.
while I endeavour to clear away some of the exaggera-
tion with which it has been accompanied,—(Hear.
hear.) And in connexion with which Honour-
able Members have been misrepresented and
attacked in no ordinary manner, and called to give ac-
count of their conduct at public meetings and elsewhere.
It is done by those who say they come to protest against
an irresponsible power, it is done by those who endeavour
to show that the body who will have the management of
this grant is unconstitutional, and that the grant made
from y ear to year—made by this House—placed ill th,6
hands of the Ministers of the Crown, renewable at toe
Ace
pleasure of the Sovereign, and who cannot hold
any longer than they have the support of this Hells"
that such a mode of devoting money to the educatioe
n
of the people was an unconstitutional egj
of proceeding. Why,
how much more must we be responsible, hew_
ing this power upon such a tenure, than those
Sir, talk of responsibilitg
who assemble together from various parts of the coo,:
try, not responsible to any persons, and who have t !ha
Hon. Members of this House that they will raise such
opposition at a future election, that they shall no lonfre
have the honour of a seat in that House if they doe i!1
n the
according to their free and impartial judgment "P
questions now to be brought before yuu. I tru,t,
House;
entirely to the judgment and impartiality of this is
and that they will not allow that these attemp
exaggeration and misrepresentation shall hide from,thert
the real facts of the case.—(Hear, hear.) ,_
is well known that the educarion of the people
—of the workine. classes especially—
forms no a.
part of the duty, either of the Government or, nationally
speaking. of the Church of this country. The whole
task of education has been 14ft, of late years, to volun
tary efforts. In the year 1784, a person of the
name of Raikes first started subscriptions for
of
the purpose of establishing Sunday schools, and
was the means of diffusing a great amount
education among the younger portion of the C 0931119910.
In the beginning of this century, when Mr. Lancaster
came to this country', it was entirely by the efforts of in:
dividuals that the British and Foreign School
Society was established, altogether unaided by any
assistance from the funds of the Government.
So likewise when these schools were succeeded by the
National Schools upon the plan of Dr. Bell. Although
the clergy took a great part in the establishment of these
schools, it was done entirely by the money of the
viduals among the clergy and the laity ;
was in no way countenanced by the State. In the yea'
1832. I think a vote was proposed in this House, of a
very limited amount, as it did not exceed 20,0001., for the
purposes 'of aiding in the education of the working,
classes. That sum was placed under the direction et
the Treasury, and was stated to be intended for this
purpose. I have mentioned the National SecietYo
which was composed of members of the Church
of England, and by the British and Foreign
School Society, which had no other rule than this
have the Scriptures read daily in the schools connected
with that society, which was constituted, not of Church-
men only, but of Churchmen and Protestant Dissen-
ters. Sir, the matter continued in this shape till
shouldhe henceforth Treasuri
1839, when it was proposed to form a Cons'
mittee of the Council ; and that the sums which
tho the had
differenthitherto edbuecaentiongranted
etib!
t
pass through the Committee of the Council, and_
Commitee instead of the whole Council, that that
who being
a large body, like the Treasury, was occupied witt!
other concerns, should form a committee of council, spa
that that committee, by the direction o her Majesty'
should have its attention expressly devoted b.",
this particular subject.
The Lord President of
the Council f that
was placed at the head
Committee, and he has taken the charge at late
times; whether under the then Government, the
Government, or under the present Government. The
the Lord President of the Council has at all times taken
the charge of this matter, and of the distribution of the
funds for the purposes of education, and has brought
before the Council from time to time such regulatioes
the adoption of which, he thought, would be useful.
Sir, the appointment of that Committee in the first in-
stance gave rise to great differences of opinion in the
country, and a very protracted and vehement discussion
took place in this House on the subject. The Arch-
bishop of Canterbury, in the other House of Parlia-
ment, protested against the formation of that Committee,
and against an scheme of education which was not
brought by Billy before Parliament. It was evident for
some time the endeavours of the Committee of Council
on the one hand, and that of the church on the other,
were much weakened by these differences of opinion;
and therefore the results were aot so successful as they
would have been if they had net prevailed. The noes'
lion was in this shape when it was proposed that the
inspectors who should visit the national sehoola bbould
be appointed by the Council, with the concurrence of the
Archbishop of Canterbury, in the province of Canter:
bury; and with the concurrence of the Archbishop of
York, in the province of York. That these should re-
port to the Committee of Council generally, al to the
secular education, and that they should report ao
to the nature of religious instruction according
to the liturgy of the Church of England; and that
duplicates of these reports should also be eat
to the Archbi.,hops, that if they withheld their c„nour-
relic° from the appointment, of that inspector or were
dissatisfied with what he considered the conscientious
discharge of his duties, his appointment cussed, and $ll4/