The Sun.
London, England, 1847-06-05 00:00:00

S I_l LONDON, SATURDAY MORNING, JUNE

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT
11011 SE OF LORDS, June 4.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool-
sack at Five o'clock.
REPRESENTATIVE PEERS OF SCOTLAND.
Lord KINNAIRD presented the report of the Select
Committee on the election of Representative Peers for
Scotland, which was ordered to lie on the table.
CLERGY OFFENCES BILL.
The Bishop of OXFORD prewnted a petition
from the city of Oxford in favour of this Bid ; !so
several other petitions to the same effect from clergy-
men and others in the comities of Oxford and Wilts.
The Bishop of EXE I ER was as desirous as any that
an effectual measure should be passed, and so were the
clergy in his diocese ; still they censetered the present
13i11 to meet the desired end was objectionable in many
of its provisions. He trusted it would be remedied in
the Committee up stairs.
PROSTITUTION.
The Bis! op of OXFORD presented a petition, signed
by the clergy and churchwardens of Cambridge, praying
their Lordships woul.l introduce a measure to facilitate
the punishment of prostitution.
BIRMINGHAM AND OXFORD JUNCTION
RAILWAY.
The Duke of RICHNIOND moved a Select Com-
mittee to consider the cas of this railway, and named
the Noble Lords to constitute that Committee.
Lord BEAUMONT said he bad intended to have
moved an addition to the Coannittee named, but, as the
House seemed to think it was unnecessary, he withdrew
that notice of motion.
The motion was agreed to, and the several petitions
were referred to the Committee named, it being ordered
that parties should be heard by one counsel on each side.
HEALTH OF TOWNS.
The Marquis of NORMANDY presented petitions
from the incumbents of two parishes, from the medical
gentlemen, and the working classes of the city of
London, in favour of the Bill brought in by the Govern-
ment, and praying that it may pass into a law.
PORTUG AL.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE laid upon the table
of the House, in answer to a question put to him by
Lord Brougham on the subject, a number of papers, and
a copy of the protocol recently signed by the Ministers
of France, Spain, and England, with respect to inter-
ference in the affairs of Portugal.
Lord STANLEY did not think that the papers laid
before the House were of such a character as should
induce either House of Parliament to pronounce an
opinion upon the course the Government had pursued
with respect to Portugal, and it would be very unwise,
in the absence of any further information, to enter into
any discussion upon the subject in either House of
Parliament.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE moved for certain returns
connected with the removal of Irish and Scotch paupers.
—Agreed to.
The Bishop of EXETER gave notice of his intention
to put a question, on Monday next, to the Lord President
of the Council relative to the minutes on education.
NAVAL PRISONS BILL.
The Earl of AUCKLAND moved the consideration of
the report on this Bill.
The Earl of HARDWICK moved the omission of
certain words in the first clause, with the view of throw-
ing the responsibility of committing and punishing of-
fenders wholly on the captains of ships, instead of alter-
nately on the commanders of ports as well as the cap-
tains of
Lord AUCKLAND resisted the amendment, which
was 111611,u-1y withdrawn.
The report was then agreed to.
EMIGRATION.
Lord MONTEAGLE then rose to move the appoint.
ment of a Select Committee respecting emigration as a
means of relieving the distress of' Ireland. He regretted
having to bring the question under their attention so
late in the session, but the reason of it was, he did not
like to distract their attention with it while other mea-
sures for the immediate relief of Ireland were in pro-
gress. Now that obstacle was out of the way, and he
trusted he would be able to make out a strong case for
the motion he was about to submit. The facts he would
lay before their Lordships were such as, he was per-
suaded, would fully justify some steps being taken for
the advancement of colonisation. When he considered
what their colonial empire was, that it contained a
population of from five to six millions, and was scattered
ever every part of the globe, though he had the greatest
respect fit the rfforts of the Colonial-office, hi: con-
sidered it required assistance and information in the
work of advancing the interests of these colonies,
and it was with this object that he was about
to submit the present motion. Inthe present instance
they had eight millions of people in Ireland to deal with,
and therefore it was their duty to see that emigration
was well directed, and that the parties who went out
were so situated as to produce for themselves the greatest
amount of food. While he wished to stimulate emigra-
tion, he wished it to be distinctly understood that in
any measure he proposed he did not mean to dsturb the
presentmount o
courseemigorfactioolnonfirsoana
Great
from 1825 to 1836, was 1,500.000, he exhibited a strong
that
case for the consideration of Parliament. The effects
colonisation.
When
VBhreintain he
to satihde coloniese
:amount
of it would not be limited to Ireland. The question to
be considered was whether this emigration should flow
in a direction towards England or to the colonies and
dependencies of the country. He thought that some
protection ought to be given to this country against the
great influx of the poorer class of tho emigrants. But
when in the one country the wages were higher than in
the other, it would be quite in vain to expect that legis-
lative interference could prevent the influx of poor from
the country where the lower wages were paid to the one
where higher wages were made. It was only by a fair
and impartial system of equality that this state ot things
could be rendered such a state of things as should tend
to improve the condition of the people of Ireland. Re-
ference had frequently been made to this mode of treat-
ment by Committees of their Lordships' House upon
various occasions. It was quite certain that either the
standard of the Irish character should be raised to the
st.ndard of England, or that of England should be de-
pressed
to the condition of Ireland. One or other of
these things must be done if the condition of Ireland
was to be permanently improved. An opinion entitled
to the greatest possible respect was pronounced upon the
subject a few years ago by his Noble Friend opposite
(Lord Ashburton). his Noble Friend declared, when
he was in office, and a member of the then House of
Parliament, that Ireland could only prosper under a free
and liberal system of emigration. Lord Fitzgerald also
entertained a similar opinion a few years back, and if
such a system were acceded then, how much was it
required now %shot the population of the sister kingdom
had almost doubled. He had given their Lordships an
array of authorities in favour of etnigration, but he had
omitted two a hich he was desirous of communicating to
their Lordships. No man had taken more interest in
the subject of emigration than Lords Durham and
Sydenham, who had given it as their opinions that
emigration, when judiciously conducted under
Government supervision, not only benefited the
parent kingdom, but added to the import-
ance and increased the value of her colonies.
lie had thus placed before their Lordships the autho-
rity and opinion of men of all parties on the subject of
emigration, and having done so, he would proceed to
impress up n the house the reasons why the question
was p.-cuharly important now, and why steps should be
taken to extend colonisation. At the present moment
it was admi,ted that at least one.fourth of the food of
Ireland was destroyed; the country therefore was, to
some extent, in the position of several millions of people
being suddenly added to the population without the
means of supporting them. In such a case they would
have at. tree to decide how to increase the food to the
number of people, or take measures to send them where
food was plentiful. This was the pre-ent position of
Ireland; a state of things which, he submitted, could not
be metaled by the present system of emigration. Nay,
to far from that, he b,heved the present voluntary sys-
tem only made matters worse. To show this, he need
only say, that the emigrants which left the country were
those who had small capital, or those who were the ablest
of the industrious of the population. A drain on the
capital of the country was therefore continually
going on at a time when it could least af-
ford it. The Noble Lord read extracts from returns
respecting the various districts of IrJand, in support of
the statement which he had made. He had no objection
to the small farrneis going to the colonies to improve
their condition if they could, but their Lordships should
take such steps that these men would not be the only
emigrants, as appeared to be the case now. With re-
gard to Ireland, he could assure them that, however
much parties differed on other questions, they all agreed
on this ; and this feeling did not arise from any feeling
that had been unduly raised, but proceeded from the
conviction raised through letters received by residents in
Ireland from their friends in the colonies, who had been
successful settlers, and encouraged their relations at
home to follim their example. He did not wish that the
people of England should be called on to bear the ex-
pense of a system of emigration for Ireland, for he was
persuaded that the proprietors of that country were so
persuaded of the benefits of the system, that the re-
sources of Inland itself would be found sufficient to
carry out au efficient scheme with effect. Nay, he had
no doubt that the soil itself would contribute a great
deal towards the expense of such a system. Besides the
colonistsoto
enttpur encouragebic mode
colonial
olot wouldi also give it, for their interests
emigration,ladl wbeo rakd, adopted
:t,which
than
ha
works
d
set h
would
o utlthdho o
bu e a r
eg ht
great
noa
beemigrantst
inrHi
nei
asa
nnd s of
ec
Statesdrdea opinionmlisai nd
ug ts. uuwne d s fha ,
rapid tohrasending
ge
raoest
sohsne,r emigrants out.
whywhi
ethecaAnmadea-
made such slow progress, was not because the former had
a more fertile soil, or because of political institutions, but
on account of the energetic character of the American
State Governments. In this view he was supported by
the report of Lord Durham, when Governor•Ueneral of
Canada. But they were not alone restricted to the Ca-
nadas. The Australian colonies also presented an ex-
tensive field of colonisation. Ile did hope that their
Lordships would adopt the motion he had placed upon
the paper. It would be taking another step towards
improving Ireland, and if the inquiry resulted in the
establishment of some system ot colonisation, upon a
large and wise scale, he was sure it would go far to get
rid of many of the evils under which Ireland was at pre-
sent labouring.
Earl GREY. would not detain their Lordships at any
great length in following in detiil the statement of sue
Noble Lard who had just stir down, but there were one
or two points which he could not pees over without offer-
ing a few remarks upon them, lie did not agree with
the Noble Lord that emieratiou could remove the evils
from whichg
Ireland was suffering. The task of trans
portin
_
masses of people from one quarter of the
giohe to aii,,th. r was not so easily accomplished as his
Noble Friend seemed to think. He valued the im-
p.rop.en of emigretion and colerisatuin as much as any
One wit. n coLlioed with n proper limits, but while deal-
ing with this motion he could not conceal from himself
that a large number noblemen and gentlemen, in a
memorial they but presented to their Lordships, had

declared that no reformation could be brought about in
the state of things in the sister k'ngelorn fur the next
two years unless two millions of the peasantry of Ireland
were transferred to America. The question of emi-
gration of late had been a good deal discussed,
but no one had ventured to propound a plan,
and he was prepared, therefore, to say to
their Lordships, " Let us have this Committee
of Inquiry, and see if this undiscovered plan of colo-
nisation could be attained "—(Hear, hear.) Other ad-
vantages might arise from the inquiry, but at all events
if some others resulted from it the inquiry might have
the effect of setting the public mind at rest upon this
extensive and interesting topic.—(Hear, bear.) Up to
1830 no settled principles of colonisation were adopted
by the Government. About that time a commission
was appointed to inquire into the subject, and the re-
sult of that investigation was the establishment of Au-
stralian emigration. Since that period, upwards of
100,000 persons have been transferred from the shores
of the United Kingdom to the colony, and the number
was annually increasing. A good deal of the success
of the system was attributable to the exertions of the
Emigration Commissioners, who had succeeded in
reducing the cost of passage, and producing
such ample accommodation for emigrants, that
the mortality of late amongst emigrants had
not amounted to more that one per cent. It was
the intention of Government to extend the system of
colonisation, which had proved so successful in South
Australia, but before it could be carried on to the extent
recotnmvanli d by the Noble Lord who had introduced
this motion, a good deal of caution and inquiry was ne-
cessary. True, in America the system had been no less
successful than in South Australia, although it had re-
ceived no Government all in that quarter. But before
they could turn their attention to that object, some pre-
cautionary measures would have to be taken. Last year
upards of 1,900.000 emigrants were landed in Canada,
who, throueh the instrumentality of the Emigration
Commissioners, were distriboted throughout the country
to places where their labour was likely to become avail-
able to the settlers ; and their Lordships ought to take
care that no act of their's should have the effect
of interrupting •or overdoing the beneficial system.
There was now a system of complete protection for the
emigrants to Canada, and there was no abuse but was at
once put an end to by the interference of the emigration
agent. The consequence of this
was, that emigration
was proceeding steadily and healthily to those colonies.
He said now, however, and he said it formerly, that it
was only a practical delusion on the Irish people to state
that the evils of that country could be remedied by a
system of emigration. He stated so in 1843, and lie now
repeated it, that it was impossible by this means to pro-
vide a remedy for the evils under which Ireland was
suff4ring. He believed that those who were best
acquainted with the subject vi ere of the opinion that
there would not be less than from 200,000 to 300,000
emigrants this year to America. Large as that number
was, he thought they could be provided for, in conse-
quence of the means of distribution which was at
present in existence, and of the demand for labour. But
if this number was increased to a large extent by
Government interference, he feared that the effect would
be great suffering in the whole body of emigrants, and
that a considerable check would be given by this artifi-
cial stimulation to emigration generally. This hap-
pened in 1832. the year of the cholera, and the results
which followed then, and which were well known, would,
he apprehended, again recur if they adopted the same
means to .nereSseernigratien. as the colonies would not be
fited to meet th- increased demand in their resources,
and would not be able to absorb this surplus labour.
The Noble Lord then read extracts from the dispatches
of Lord Elgin. to the effect that the emigration hitherto
had been easily absorbed, and that any interference
with it might he attended with the meat injurious con-
sequences. He (Earl Grey) thought, that if Noble
Lords perused there dispatches—esp •cially those which
arrived recently, it would be apparent to there, that any
artificial increase, such as that proposed, in the number
of emigrants, would not be attended with beneficia

consequences. His Noble Friend (Lord Monteagle)
said, that by the establishment of a system of public
works in Canada, a wide field might be opened for the
absorption Of lab mr. Now he (Earl Grey), would like
to see a system of railways laid down in that colony,
and he would like particularly to see a railway laid down
from llalirax to Canada, as this would open up access
with Canada, at all sepsons of 'he year. If that policy
were adopted, he thought the greatest advantages would
result. But these were not things which could be pushed
on with the rapidity some gentlemen desired. In the
first place the surveys were in a very imperfect condi-
tion, and instructions had lately been given
by the Master- General of the Ordnance to
have them pushed on with as little delay as possible.
Lord Elgin also, it would be seen from these papers, was
to bring the subject before the Local Legislatures of the
colony. Besides these objections, the present financial
state of this country must be considered ; it must not be
forgotten that it was with the greatest difficulty that
they could prevent the Exchequer bills from being re-
turned to the Government, and that they were nut in a
condition to give effect to the railway enterprise even of
this country. He was persuaded, however, that all these
evils under which this country was now labouring were
of a transient and passing nature, and that as soon as
they were at an end there would be enterprise sufficient
to carry these Canadian undertakings into effect. There
was only one further point to which he felt it necessary
toallui e namely,lreland
thethe
contrast beendrawn
between and he American
which
colonies.h
acl
i had d been

stated that these colonies when they were so had got on ad-
mirably ; and that, therefore, had furnished a strong ar-
gument for leaving our'present colonies to their own ex-
ertions. He would conclude by saying that he trusted
that their Lordships would understand that in consenting
to this Committee he did not agree in the practicability
of carrying out this system of emigration upon that gi-
gantic scale which alone could render it an immediate

and effectual remedy for the pressure which now existed.
Lord FI rz vir LUAU (who in the commencement of
his observations was quite inaudible) said that it ap-
peared to him that one of the great objections which his
Noble Friend saw to an extended system of emigration
was, the great expense it would entail upon this coun-
try, but that was a difficulty which would in a short
time be removed, although the present state of the
money market might not warrant any great outlay at
present. He thought, however, that any expense that
was incurred by the
Government ought to go to the
removal of the evils by which Ireland suffered. The
Government had determined to give pecuniary assist-
ance, so as to encourage the formation of railways in
bCean suand he thought that the same course ought to
ed with regard to It eland, where the distribu-
paudra,
tion of money would be attended with far more
benfiecial effects. The want of some system
of emigration was universally admitted, and it
the Government did not assent in forwarding
that object, who was to do it ? The landlord
would be unable to carry into effect such an extended
system as would alone be attended with any satisfactory
reiult, nor, indeed, would they be able to carry it into
effect, so as even to produce any great reduction of the
suff -Hiles of the population. He did say, if this country
did not exert herself more than she did on behalf of the
improvement of Ireland, and the condition of the Irish
people, they would inevitably have to contend with a
popular tumult. Ile was desirous of seeing the improve-
ment of Ireland, as his Noble Friend had said in refer-
ence to the colonies, by means of public works, and he
was certain that that was by far the most economical pro-
cess—economical, because the money expended must
be largely teproductive. If they did not adopt
these means, unless the population was immensely de-
creased by emigration, the Government would not for
years and years be able to surmount the difficulty at-
tendant upon Ireland. What most impeded this pro-
gress of improvement, was the general public opinion in
which the Government unfortunately participated, that
the calamity of Ireland did not become the calamity of
the empire. That calamity was great. Suppose they
should proceed as they had been doing ; suppose, how-
ever, that instead of the potatoe, they should wish to in-
troduce wheat. It was certain that 2 acres or 2* would
be requisite for the support of a family that used to exist
on I* acre planted with potatoes. But he was certain
that it was an impossibility to grow two acres of wheat
this year on the land belonging to those families which
had raised each but an acre of potatoes. This being so,
he was bold to say, that unless the Govern-
ment was prepared to make up their minds
to adopt a new course, to foster emigration,
and the improvement of Ireland by public works, they
must have recourse again to votes of money for the
support of the helpless in that country.
Lord MON rEAG LE replied—He said he had no ob-
jection to move for the memorial alluded to by the Noble
Earl, just to rescue it from oblivion and the dusty shelf.
The motion was then agreed to, and the Committee
was named.

beveral Bills were advanced a stage, and
The House adjourned a few minutes past nine o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 4.
The SrlAgElt took the Chair shortly before Four
o'clock.

THIRD READINGS.

The following Bills were read a third time and passed:
Birmingham, Wolverhampton, and Sour Valle
way (No. 2) Branches. y Rail-
Birmingham, Wolverhampton, and Stour Valley Rail-
way (No. I.—Smethwick Deviation).
Bristol and South Wales Junction Railway and Aust
Ferry.
Coventry,way.
Derbyshire, Staffjrdshire, and Worcestershire Junction Nuneaton, Birmingham, and Leicester Rail-
way. Railway.
Dundee and Newtyle Railway.
Dundee and Perth Railway (Alteration and Extension,
and Inchture, Polgavit-, and Inchrnichael Branches).
Eastern Counties Railway (Enlargement of the London
and Stratford Stations and Amendment of Acts).
laEasternirre Counties Line, &c
)
Railway (Cambridge, Royston, and
Edinburgh and Bathgats Railway (Deviation and
Arrh-ndmient).
Kingsnorton, Northfield, &c., Rates.
Liverpool Gas.
London and North-Western Railway (Coventry and
Nuneaton Branches).
London and North-Western Railway (Atherstone and
Whitacre Branc,:).
Lon;lon and North- Western Railway (Purchase of the
Earl of Ellesmere's intsreit in the Manchester South
Junction and Altrincham Railway).
Lindon and North Western Railway (Newport Pagnell,
Olney,London and North- Western Railway (Portobello and
wolvrhonron Branch. &:
Lynn and Ely Railway (I)e,.iation and Lynn Docks).
•
Northampt and Ba,lbur, Railway.
Parkgate and Chester and Birkenhead Junction Rail-
way.
Sandwich Haven.
Wexford Free Bridge.

1847.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORTS.
The reports on the following 13:11s ►►ere further eon •
sidered and a.zraed to:—
Lalicatlire, Cheshire, and North Wales Drainage and
Inclosure Companies Ine,rporaion
London (City) Small D. bts
Weymouth and Melcombe Regis Harbour and Bridge
Trusts.

SECOND READINGS.
The following Bills were read a second time, and
ordered to be committed :—Leith Harbour and Docks
Dues ; Lincoln's Inn Rating ; Liverpool Fire and Life
Insurance Company.

REPORTS.
The following reports were brought up, and ordered
to Pe on the table :
Aberdeen and Great North of Scotland Railways Amal-
gamation or Leasirig.
Aberdeen Railway (Brechin Branch Dsviat.ion).
Birmingham and Oxford Junction Railway (Warwick
and Stratford Line).
Buckingham and Bra •ltley Junction Railway, and Ox-
ford and Bletehley Junction Railway Companies
Amalgamation and Extension of Lines.
Cheltenham and Oxford Railway.
East Lancashire Railway (Southport Branch and Preston
Ex ension).
East Lancashire Railway (Burnley Connecting Line).
East Lancashire Railway (Ciitheroe, Mitton, and Padi-
ham Branches).
East Lancashire Railway (Bury to Manchester).
E iinburgh and Northern Railway (Burntisland Pier, &c.)
Edinburgh Waterworks.
Great Northern Railway (Extension to Leeds and
Wakefield Deviation of Methley Branch of Wakefield,
Pontefract, and Goole Railway).
Leeds, Wakefield, and Midland Junction Railway.
Leeds and Thirsk Railway (deviation of main line in
Critnple Valley, &c.)
London and North-Western Railway (Ormskirk and
Rainford Branch, &c.)
London and North Western 'Railway (Kenilworth to
Berkswell Branches and Extensions, &c.)
London and North-Western Railway (St. Alban's, Lu-
ton, and Dunstable Branch).
Manchester and Leeds Railway (Branches, Extensions,
Deviations, and Alterations of Levels, and other
Works).
Midland Railway (Cheltenham, Warwick, and Leaming-
ton Line).
North-Western Railway (Diversions at Skipton, Caster-
ton, and Sedbergh).
Oxford, Worcester, and Wolverhampton Railway (No. 1)
Extension and Amendment.
Portadown and Dungannon Railway.
Rochdale Canal (Sale to the Manchester and Leeds Rail-
way Company).
St. Helen's Canal and Railway (Warrington and Black-
brook Branches, &c.)
York and Newcastle, Newcastle and Berwick, and North
British Railways Amalgamation.
MANCHESTER AND SOUTHPORT RAILWAY.
On the motion of Mr. ROEBUCK, leave was given to
the Committee on the Manchester and Southport Rail-
way Bill to make their report this day, notwithstanding
one clear day's notice had not been given in the Private
Bill-office ; and the report was brought up and ordered
to lie on the table.
THAMES CONSERVANCY.

Mr. DUNCOMBE moved that Mr. Wortley and Mr.
Cardwell be added to the Committee on the Thames
Conservancy Bill.
Mr. WARD objected to the motion, and intimated
he should be compelled to vote against him if it were
forced to a division.

Sir R. 11. INGLES thought a sufficient case had been
ma(le out yesterday to warrant an addition to the Com-
mittee.

Mr. T. DUNCOMBE thought that no objection would
be urged by the Committee to the assistance of gentle-
men of ability, like his Hon. Friends Mr. Cardwell and
Mr. Wortley. They not only would, by the addition of
these gentlemen, be receiving an infusion of new blood,
but of legal blood—(Laughter)—which was still better ;
and after what they had heard yesterday he did not
think that the House would do well to remit the ques-
tion to the same Committee—a Committee composed of
the Admiralty and the Court of Aldermen--(Laughter)
—a happy conjunction.—(Laughter.) Why, the Court
of Aldermen were of opinion that if they did not get
this Bill through Parliament this session they would cot
get it through at all, and therefore it was that they
were so opposed to the introduction of new Members.
Mr. WILLIAMS was not surprised that the Secre-
tary to the Admiralty should be opposed to this Com-
mittee, for when, as he understood, the Committee
were themselves divided in opinion upon the Bill, the
Hon. the Secretary to the Admiralty decided in its
favour by his casting vote. But the Hon. the Secretary
said that this Bill should be approved of, and he con-
sidered that the Court of Aldermen was a proper Court
to have charge of this Bill.
Mr. WARD explained in a few words.
Sir DE LACY EVANS said that if the motion of
the Hon. Member for Finsbury should not be carried
he would feel it his duty to propose that the Hon. Mem-
ber for Finsbury and the Hon. Member for Westminster
be appointed conservators of the River, in addition to
the Members appointed by the Bill.
Mr. HODGSON was understood to oppose the motion.
Mr. HUME could not assent to the propositions which
had been made, and he believed unquestionably that the
change which he recommended would be serviceable, yet
he was ready to accede to the decision of the House.—
(Cries
of " Divide, divide.")
The House was then cleared for a division, but
The motion was agreed to without a division.
BELFAST 'NI PR3VENIENT.
Mr. ROSS moved that the Committee on the Belfast
Improvement Bill do not proceed with the said Bill until
the returns relative to the 13...1fa5t Corporation shall
have been laid before the House. He understood that
the motion was to be resisted by a Noble Lord opposite,
because it was supposed that he wanted to get rid of
this Committee by a side wind, but really and truly he

had no such desire. He Wet taiaed no 6ubt whatever
that no case could be made out for the Bill, and sure he
was that it would be deteatcql in a legitimate manner ;
but if the inquiry were gone into, he wanted the Com-
mittee to be in possession of information that would
enable them to arrive at a just and proper conclusion.
Mr. F. FRENCH trusted the House would not esta-
blish the dangerous precedent of entertaining a resolution
of this nature. The Bill was generally approved by the
authorities. It had been reported upon favourably by
the Admiralty Surveyor, and he did not think it right
that any obstacles should be thrown in the way of the
Bill. He trusted under these circumstances Mr. Hume
would not sanction the motion of the Hon. Gentleman.
Aftfr a few words from Lord CHICHESTER,
Mr. GREENE would submit tolthe Hon. Member op.
posite whether it would not be better to leave it to the
Committee themselves. _ _

Mr. ROSS assented to this suggestion, and the motion
was accordingly withdrawn.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
Messengers from the Lords brought up several Bills.
ILLEGAL IMPRISONMENT.
Mr. FERRAND desired to know from the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Depart-
ment, what steps had been taken with reference to the
illegal commitment of Mary Dawson, who had been com-
mitted to prison for three weeks, and punished on the
treadmill, for no crime whatsoever ; he also desired to
know what further steps he considered it his duty to
take.

Sir G. GREY said that in consequence of the repre-
sentations which had been made to him, he had the
warrant of committal transmitted, and he was advised
that it was an illegal commitment, as the magistrates had
convicted under one Act and sentenced under another.
Tne conviction took place under the 17th of George 111.,
cap. 56, and the sentence under the 67th of George IV.
POSTPONEMENT OF THE ASSIZES IN
IRELAND.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN wished to ask a question of the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, of which he
had not given notice: it was with reference
j to the post-
ponement of the assizes in Ireland by the judges. The
gaols were in a very crowded state, and the precedent
was not a good one, but was most objectionable It also
appeared that the postponement would not have any
beneficial effect, as matters were not likely to mend.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that the judges had come
to a resolution that a postponement was desirable, but
be was not properly informed upon the subject as yet.
PORTUGAL.
Mr. HUME desired to know from the Noble Lord
whether the promised papers in reference to Portugal
would be soon laid upon the table of the House ? He
was determined to persevere in his intentionlof making
his notion of Monday next.
Lord J. RUSSELL—The papers will be on the table
of the House upon Monday next, and I propose to go
into Commtttee of Supply on Friday next, on which day
it will be open to the Hon. Gentleman to bring forward
his motion.

Mr. HUME—The question is of too much import-
ance to further postpone it.
Sir DE LACY EVANS said that he hoped that the
Hon. Gentleman would not persevere with his motion
unless be was of opinion that gentlemen could discuss a
question better in the absence of all information than
otherwise. He did earnestly desire him to postpone his
motion.

Mr. OSBORNE said that the House was aware that
a collision had already taken place between her Ma-
jesty's navy and that of Portugal. His own opinion
was so strong on this subject, that if the Hon. Member
had not pressed his motion, he should in the course of
the evening, have taken:some opportunity of bringing
the matter forward. The Government had every advan-
tage on its side in keeping these papers, while the
House was totally ignorant of their nature.—(Hear.)
Mr. BORTHWICIC said that the Noble Lord the
Secretary for Foreign Affairs. had last night informed
the House that if possible he should lay this case on the
table of the House this evening, and that Hon Members
should be in possession of the papers on Monday morn-
ing. In 1826, the 11th December, Mr. Canning, under
circumstances similar to the present, had come to the bar
of the House and read a paper from the Crown, stating
that the interference ofjEngland had been requested, and
he apologised for the lateness of the information, al-
though he had only received it himself on the previous
Friday. Mr. Canning had on that occasion given the
infOrtuation as early as possible, and had sought the
sanction of Parliament for the interference, an:l he
thought that a similar course ought to be pursuei on
the present occasion. The interference which had taken
place on a former occasion, with the sanction of Parlia-
inent, had beensuceessful,and all Europe felt the benefit of
it. The Hon. and Gallant Member for Westminster said
they ought not to argue the question in ignorance.
There was no necessity that they should do so, for the
Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Aff kirs could
abundantly supply them with all information. He
thought the House ought to be placed in possession of
the reasons which urged her Majesty's Government to in
terfere with the liberties of a nation, in order to sup.
port the authority of a despotic Government.
Lord PALUERSTON said that he wished to ob-

serve that the House ought to be fully informed of the
grounds on which the Government acted. But it ap •
peared, from the course now pursued by Hon. Members,
that they wished to come to this discussion without being
so info: med. He could assure the House that every exer-
tion would be made to supply the House with the papers
at the earliest opportunity, and he hoped that if they
were not laid upon the table on Monday they would be
in possession of Hon. Members before Friday. Ile did
not wish to follow the Hon. Member throughout his
argument, but he was convinced that when the papers
were produced, the House would see that the interfer-
ence of the Government .was not with the intention
of establishing despotism, but to secure the people of
Portu-gal in tle full enjoyment of those liberties which
had been secured to them by the charter of Don Pedro.
Lord J. MANNERS said, that the object of Hon.
Members in pressing forward the motion was that some
measures might be taken which would be attended with
some good effect before it was to late. The Honour-
able Member for Wycombe had told the House that
a collision had already taken place between her
Majesty's fleet and the forces of the insurgents.
It was because they were anxious that the cause of the
people of Portugal should nut suffer by any delay, that
they wished to proceed with promptitude.
Lord IL VANE said that he would suggest to his
Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose to allow the
discussion to take place on Thursday next. The House
would then be in possession of the papers on Monday,
and be fully informed on the subject by Thursday.
Mr. lIUME said, if he could bring on his motion en
Thursday, as a subatative motion, that it should take
precedence of the other business, he would consent to
defer it till then.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he understood the
Honourable Member wished to bring on his motion
on the day fixed for the Supply, but if he would bring
it on on Thursday he would be ready to postpone all the
other business. The Honourable Gentleman had
mentioned that a collision had taken place between
her Majesty's forces and those of tne Queen of
Portugal. His (Lord John Russell's) im-
pression, from the accounts in the papers, was
that the collision was between the forces of the Queen of
Portugal and some German vessels.
Mr. HUME said that under these circumstance he
wished to give his notice of motion for Thursday next.
The subject then dropped.
Mr. COLLETT would ask the First Lord of the
Treasury, whether it was the intention of her Majesty's
Government, during the present Parliament, to supply
the deficiency in the number of Members of this House
caused by the disfranchisement of the borough of Sud-
bury?
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Government had
no intention whatever of bringing in such a Bill dur-
ing the present session of Parliament, nor did he see
any reason for the introduction of such a Bill, or that
there was any necessity, unless a special case was made
out for giving two new Members to the House of Com,

ntions.—(Laugh ter.)
Mr. COLLETT then begged to give notice that he
should shortly move for leave to bring in a Bill to make
Chelsea a borough.—(Laughter.)
•
THE LLINGTON .
Mr. CRAVE WELLINGTON STATUE.
Mr. CRAVEN EBERKELEY STATUEbegged to ask the
Noble Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests,
whether there was any intention of removing the Wel-
lington statue from the arch opposite to Hyde-
park? Whether there had been any cornmunica,ion
with the Committee appointed to place it there? And
how long it weuld bo before the statue was removed
from its present site?

Lord MORPETH said, that in reply he had to say.
that it was the wish of her Majesty, that the statue
should be removed from the arch. That intimation
had been given to the Committee, and in reply they had
stated that it was their impression that sufficitint care
had not been taken to guard the scaffolding about the
arch. When they intended to remove the statue he
could not say, for he was not acquainted with the state
of the Committee's funds, but he might say that both
the sculptor and the architect were dissatisfied with the

effect of the statue as it now stands. And he had only
further to say, that her Majesty had signified her plea-
sure whenever the House should vote funds for the

completion of the arch, according to the original design,
that any further decorations placed upon it should be
illustrations of the achievements of the Duke of Wel-

lington, and should mark the sense of the country of his
merits and deserts.—(Bear, hear.)
REDUCTION OF DUTY ON SALT IN INDIA.
Viscount SANDON put a question to the President
of the Board of Control, whether he had received in-
telligence of a notification published by the Deputy
Governor of Bengal, on the 31st day of March, 1847, by
which on and after the Ist day of April, 1847, the prices
of salt in store in Calcutta., manufactured under the Go-
.

vernment monopoly, and the duty on imported salt, were
to be reduced, but unequally, and without notice to the
importers ; and if so, what steps the Government in this
country are prepared to take in respect of such enact-
ment?

Sir JOHN CAM HOBUOUSE had to inform the
Noble Lord that it was perfectly true that the Indian
Government had thought tit to reduce the duty on native
and British imported salt. The best thing, however,
which he thought he could do, was to present to the
House the papers from the Indian Government which
related to that notification. A great mistake had been
made with respect to the duty upon British and upon
native salt, as it was stated that they were not the same,
whereas the duty upon both was reduced 25 rupees.
There had been no unfair play whatever against the in-
troduction of British salt. It was true the Government
of 11=ngal had made an exception with respect to a cer-
tain description of salt, but the papers which he intei:di d
to present to the 'Luse (and he held a copy of them in
his handa), would givo the fullest information on the
subject. It was stated on the 25th of March, 1846, that
an alteration would be made after the Ist of April, 1847,
so that the parties were not taken by surprise, and moit
have been fully prepared for the change which had taken
place.
In reply to Sir JOHN PAKING TON,
Sir J. C. HOBEIOUSE said that the change had not
taken place as a counter blow to anything which hal
been done.

WELLINGTON STATUE.
Lord J. MANNERS' wished to know whether it was
the intention of her Majesty's Government to commence
the pedestal of the Wellington statue before au estimate
was submitted to Parliament of its expenses.
Lord MORPETII said that if the plan and estimates
were ready they would most certainly be submitted to the
House ; and it was not the intention of the G)vernment
to remove the statue from its present position until the
pedestal was ready.
MARY DAWSON,

Mr. FERRAND said that it was his intention to
bring the committal of this case at an early day before
the House.

Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN wished to know whether
Government intended to proceed with the Agricultural
Statistics Bill this session?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
in answer to the question of the Hon. Gentleman the
Member for Cockermouth it was quite true that a report
had reached the Government that the potato disease
had again made its appearance, but he thought that it
was too early at present to form any certain judgment
upon the subject, as last year the great attiick of the
potato disease did not come until Juiy. In answer to
the Hon. Member who had last spoken, the Government
did not intend to proceed with the Agricultural Statistics
Bill in the course of the present sesiion.
Mr. OSBORNE said that there were two different
sorts of potato, the early and the late, and the early
potato had shown symptoms of a disease entirely dif
ferent from the disease of last year. He thought that
the Government ought to use some measure to hinder
the people of Ireland from sowing the quantity of po
tatoes which they were at present putting down, as the
disease appeared likely to spread.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that there was a body
called the Agricultural Society of Dublin, which took a
great interest in the general agriculture of the country.
He thought that it would be far better for such a body
to give advice than for the Government to take upon
itself the great responsibility of advising what course
the people should pursue upon such a subject.
Sir H. W. BARRON said that if the people were encou
raged to sow any substitute for the potato, it should be
the one which had been recommended in the Gardener's
Chronicle, namely, haricot beans. These beans formed
an article of fool to the lower classes of people in very
large districts of France, Spain, and Portugal.
Mr. E. B. ROACH said that when he had left Ireland
a few days hence, he had not heard any report of the re-
appearance of the potato disease. Ile had been round
100 acres sown with nearly every sort of potato, and in
not one single instance had any tendency to disease been
observed. He thought it would be the better way to put
in crops of late turnips, which he had done with great
success last year.
Mr. OSBORNE explained,_ and the subject dropped.

CHARGES ON VESSELS.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in reply
to a question from Mr. EWART, stated that an arrange-
ment bad been made last year in reference to this sub-
j ect.

_
',PUBLIC WORKS IN IRELAND.
Lord G. BENTINCK said he wished to ask his Right
Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchepuer whether
be was in a condition to inform the House what would
be the expense of the staff employed on the public works
in Ireland, or whether the cost of the rations was 2d. or
2d. each ? Also, what was likely to be the cost of
5,800 clerks and overseers, which, if it equalled that of
last year, would amount to about 730.000/.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that it was perfectly impossible to give a direct answer
to the first question of his Noble Friend. but he was
quite ready to lay on the table of the House the last
return which had teen received. He could not say
exactly, at the present moment, what the outlay was
h had had a
the penny.
e
last Saturday. The rations had varied from 2V •to a
r
but h©r
N believed
cii
saidthat
thatth e
theyaverage
haLolfrerdiniyG: BsN
turn of the expense of the staff up to the last
statement,
and it was there asserted that the whole, or at least a
great number of the labourers had been
he desired to know whether there hadn dismissed,
and
been any pro.
portionato reduction of the stall. By
it appeared that the weekly cost
w the last returns,
the number of rations issued (a,as 14,9001., and that
It would appear by this that tl i y was 2,200,000,000.
this department alone, yearly expenditure in
would the be upwards of 700,0001.
and this, he thought, required
The CII ANC E LI46(11111 red
explanation. t of the EXCIIEQLTEIt said
that he did not stare
.what the cost of each return was,
but he stated that the whole cost would be 2,600,0001.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said in answer to a
IRISH RAILWAYS.
ques-
tion, that it was nut his intention to pr;ceed with du:
vote for Irish railways on Monday next.
PORTUGAL.
Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE gave notice that, in the
event of Mr. flume not persisting in his motion, re-
specting Portugal, he would move,
.or! Tuesday next,
that it was hostile to liberty, and injurious to the in-

terects of this country, to enter into any convention,
hating for its object the upholding of any dynasty in
forc•ign coantries, or suppressing public opinion in
them.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL explained to the Hon. Gen-
tleman that his motion could not be taken before the
other motions which had been fixed for Monday.
Mr. SPOONER stated that he had given notice that
on the order of the day being read on Monday, he
should call the attention of the House to the recall of
Sir Esrdley
COSTS TAXATION BILL.
Oa the motion of Mr. HUME, this order of the day
was postponed until next Friday.
LO ‘N DISCOUNT BILL.
On the order of the day forte third reading of the
Loan Discount TM,
Mr. GISBORNE said that he had been informed that
there would be very little discussion upon this Bill, and
if that were the goneral fp•use of the House, he was
quite willing to abide by it, but if the Chancellor of the
Exchequer were to make another E.peech, and other
gen lemen were to speak, he thought it but fair that he
and others should also rive their opinions upon this mea-
sure and the Bill of 1844.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCITEQUER said
that he had never said that this order of the day was to
go off without any discus;sion. He had heard that there
would not be any prolonged debate on this subject, but
he had never stated that fact to which the Eon. Member
had alluded.
Mr. GI:il1"):1NE sail that he was sorry to have mis.,
p
statement
reresente
that
la; q‘hvtasfltoon,,buerathblee
filTrrsiteonrd‘iebruot
of the
thet'ileday.
risth2isi
had been made, he was not present, and he had heard
that there was to be no discussion upon it at all.
After a few words from Sir G. GREY, which did not
reach the gallery,
Lord GEORGE BENTINCK said that it was no in-
tention of his to protract the debate, as he understood
that the matter would be taken up by abler hands, and
he had only spoken for himself, when he said that there
would be no debate upon this measure. He had in-
tended to bring in a Bill to repeal the Bank charter of
1844.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that if there were any inten-
tion of bringing any measure forward, for the alteration
or repeal of the Bank charter of 1844, it had better be
brought forward in the shape of a motion.
Sir R. PEEL, said that it would be better to bring this
matter forward in a more substantial way, and he for one
should not trouble the House with any observations of
this occasion.
Mr. BERKELEY said that the better course would be
to allow the Bill to pass without any discussion.
After a few words from Mr. HUDSON, which did
not reach the gallery,
Sir R. PEEL said a few words in explanation.
Mr. BARING said he thought that the discussion
had better be taken upon a practical measure.
Mr. SPOONER said that he wished, if be went at all
upon the subject, to enter upon it fully, which he could
not do then. He thought that the debate had better be
adjourned to another time, provided the Noble Lord the
Member for Lynn would give an assurance that the
subject would he acain brought forward in another shape.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he at, first understood

that the discussion wculd be upfsn the Bill itself, but he
afterwards understood that the diseu,sion would be taken
lnnn a more substantive measure with reference to the
Bill.

Lord G. BENTINCK said that he had another friend
who intended to bring forward a Bill for the Repeal of
the Bank Charter of 1844, and if that Hon. Friend did
not do so. he should do so himself.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that he was happy to inform the House that 2,678,0001.
had been paid op slready upon this Bill.
Mr. SPOONER urged that the Right Hon. Baronet
should not have refused te offer which was made to
pay up the money upon this Bill. That refusal had en-
couraged the bankers to believe that the Right Hon..
tronet had a sufficiency to meet the demand upon
him. He ought to have for>seen the consequences of
his measure, and he ought to have informed the con-
tractors for this loan that a demand would be made
upon the Bank, and not have kept them in perfect ig-
norance upon this subject. The refusal of the Right
Hon. Barcnet to receive the money at the time when he
was making a demand upon the Bank. was nut in ac-
cordance with sound policy, or even fairness to those
who were making the advances.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that it was quite true that at the time he refused the
money that he did not think he should want it, nor was
there any circumstance which he could foresee which
would lead him to the belief that be should want it until
the proper time for payment came.
Mr. NEWDEGATE rejoiced that the debate of this
day had called forth from the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer a more favourable bulktin with respect to the " Old
Lady" in Threadneedle-street, than he was able to issue
upon the occasion of the last debate. He thought it hard
to saddle upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer the
blame of causing the pressure which had existed on the
money market,
The Bill was then read a third time and passed.
PRISONS BILL.—ADJOURNED DEBATE.

On the order of the day for the adjourned debate on
the Prisons Bill,
Mr. EWART said that he differed from the Hon,
Member for Southwark (Sir Wm. Molesworth), who
stated in his speech last evening that he .should not have
been surprised to have heard of some calamity which
would have swept from the face of the earth the inhabi-
tants of that wretched coleny. Ile did -not think that
the vengea: ce of Heaven, if he might use so
s'rong a term would have fallen upon the guiltless inha-
bitants of tl.at plac'2, but rather the dire visitation would
hart faibm upon the heads of the legislators of the mo-
ther country. When he brought forward his motion in
the list session the Housa was counted out ; but he was
rally convinced at that time that a period would soon
arrive whey the subject won1:1 be bronght more fully
and seriote.ly under the consideration of the House by
the Government itself ; and those ar.ticipations were
now fully borne out, and the Government had brought
forward a measure, embodyine: almost the identical plan
which it was then his intention to have proposed to the
House, had it not been that the then Government care-
lessly allowed the House to be counted out upon
so important a subject. With respect to the Bill
now before
_the House, he approved of the proposition
as carrying cut the separate system as at Pentonville,
but he disapproved of the proposed plan of making the
convicts work together in gangs; he entirely disapproved
of any system of congregating together those persons.
ft was an admitted principle that the convicts, when they
entered the prison, should see as little as possitle of each
other. After the prison discipline bad been fully carried
out on the convict, was it not an absurd thing to bring
the convict out of the influence of this separate system,
place him along with numerous others of a similar or
worse character than himself, and thus afford him
the fullest opportunity for failing back into those vicious
habits from which he had been weaned by the influence of
the separate system? lie regretted, therefore, that the
Government had thotrzht proppr to introduce this sys-
tem into their plan. The system of assignment was a
good system only on account of its being iti effect a
-epara.te syst,on, and upon that griFend infinitely supe-
rior to any system which proposed to neva the con•
viers en muse, and in a cengregated and gregarious
body to one colony or p, nal s-ttlem-at. He did not
think that much weight was to be attached to the de-
oision of the judges upon this point. They were in
their habits entirely microscopic, and it was:quite as
natural to suppose that the powers of a microscope were
similar to those of a t--lescope, as that the minds of
persons long habituated to the study of the subtleties
of legal lore should be supposed to be able to give a
correct opinion upon so enlarged a question as that of
ransportatiun. And with all deference to these Learned
Judges, he would say that they were the last persons
in the country to whose authority he would defer upon
a question or this kind. With two exceptions, one in
Germany and the other in Prussia, the dis-
t;nguished men who had turned their attention
to the subject were in favour of separate con-
finement, as a great means of reformation.
Many Hon. Gentleman did not distinguish properly be.
tween separate and silent confinement. Separate con-
finement did not restrict communication with others, as
the prisoner had intercourse with those who were likely
to do him good and not evil ; but the silent system was
more severe in its nature, as the person so incarcerated
had but little communion with others. He entirely co-
incided with that part of the Right Hon. Baronet's state.
ment which had reference to employing the prisoners at
fixed labour, a system which had been introduced with
the best effects among the prisoners intrusted to the care
of Captain Macconochi. Although he differed with some
of the details of the measure, he generally, concealed
in it, because it proposed the system oef
itsepda
the
eguulnkrtunate persons,
stroved hope in the minds of these.
at imprisonment
line, anfitbecraorif
theydi separate
destroyconfinement, hop improved
p ther ovme di
nddisscoi discipline,
HOPE had no intention to object unnecessarily
Mr.
itnh
wouldet yecbe
eu would
rfsue findtiloef.
Government, and trusted he might,
that all their exertions
, to the measure of the
his address, be enabled to waist the
Government in some of the details which were 'i.ci be en-
countered in a plan fraught with so many dila:acuities as
that of convict discipline. He regretted that the Right
Hon. Baronet the Member for Sounutpheownhaarthic.de(meS,otirvtirruecci.tMaoofpl
leas hisn-
defleLcoterdd sSotasenvlee
discipline, but it' ityre.hlYad failed, suirirsely the Noble
orNw.fooocrrbdotinheov)uiFhegtra!idet Friend
coit t 0 be'
blamed for the faults atnhdosfeailvtu,hreo
of his agents, and they were selected
seemed best adapted for carrying out the system he had
proposed. It seemed to him, also, that the Hun. Baronet
had not paid that attention to the Bight Hon. Baronet's
speech, which it deserved from one who differed with the
plan he proposed. When his Noble Friend acceded to
office, the system of convict discipline was in a moat
imperfect state, and he did his best to remedy it ; and
he appealed confidently to the public to pass judgment
, upon the course which his Noble Friend adopted, because
he believed it was carefully revised, and would have
been most successful, Hit had been properly carried out.
lie had no intention to advert unnecessarily to the con-
duct of the late Sir Eardley Wilmot, but he could not
help stating that that gentleman, in a communication to
of
t which had
been the good
Mr. Gladstone, dated July, 1846, spoke favourabl of the
system of
passes, all(3
system.
With respect to Major
Childs, he thought it right to state that he had,
been recommended to his Noble Friend as a gallant
• t
eir etedprobbyatiholis
officer of Marines. as a good disciplinarian, and as likely
to till the office with advantnee, which his Noble Friend
had found some ditficuity in filling. The office was that
of a gaok r, with Fut soeietv, as it was in an isolated part
of the colony. Bat his isiohle Friend ought not to be
darned !or the conduct of Major Childs, because he had
appointed him uteier the belief that he was the best per-
son to fiil the ell-ice; and here he ought to state, that his
Noblk. Priced had appointed persons without favour, and
with a sole desire to promisee the public service. He (Mr.
Hope) was in favour of giving the convicts, when they
reached their destination, probation papers, bow*" ii