The Sun.
London, England, 1841-05-12 00:00:00

!THE SUN, LONDON. WEDNESDAY, MAY 12, 1841.

tical life. It was said that humanity was dangerous
when not kept within due bounds, and that
observation might be justly applied to his Right
Hon. Friends. It was said the object of the Govern-
ment was to let in the produce of Cuba and Brazil,
thereby letting in a slave-labour produce. He denied
that Government had.any such object in view ; their ob-
ject was to give a protecting duty of 50 per cent. to free-
labour sugar, over that produced- by slavery. Now, he
begged to state to the House that he was not prepared to
go the full length of his Hon. Friend, the Member for
the City of London. He was not prepared to do away
with all restriction on sugar, but he desired to see the
expedient of 1834 succeed ; at the same time he begged
distinctly to state, that he could not consent to keep up
high prices to the West Indies by monopoly. He was
confident that the change which was proposed by her
Majesty's Government was consistent with true princi-
ples, and true faith.—(Hear, hear.) Why, he would
ask, should the negro population eat figs and drink cham-
pagne, as they had been told by Mr. Gurney they did,
through the means of taxing the people of this country ?
—(Hear, hear.) They had been called upon by the
Hon. Member for Liverpool, to allow their moral feel-
ings to predominate above all others on this question.
He was not prepared to adopt any such course ; nay, the
thing had been carried further—they had been ap-
plied to, not only in the name of religion, but for the
sake of humanity. In his opinion humanity began at home.
Was there, he would ask, a single manufacturer in the
country, if brought before a Committee of that House,
who would not tell them of the distress that existed in

the manufacturing; districts Such was the state of those
districts, that the labourers there had no hope but either
going to the parish, or such a change as that which was
proposed by her Majesty's Ministers. The distress of
the manufacturing districts was an element which that
House could not overlook. It demanded its prompt at-
tention, and it would have it. How different, as he had
stated before, was the black population in the colonies ?

There could be no doubt that it was most desirable that
comfort should be attained as the result of labour. But

the comforts of the black population had been produced,
he might say, in an unnatural way, for they were the re-
sult of direct taxation on the Tabour of this country.
All the large towns such as Sheffield, Leeds, and other
places, had their eyes open and were fully alive to' the
declarations of principle made by either of the great
parties in that House. On the one hand they had one of
the most statesman-like and far-seeing declarations that
he had ever heard, on the other side nothing but indi-
vidual declarations of the utmost hostility to all free

trade. The experiment of the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer of last year afforded an abundant proof that unless
they changed their system, the crisis in their finances
was but beginning—they had broken the spring of their
prosperity by pressing too heavily upon the great body
of the people. He had only one fault to find with the
proposition of the Government—it was too much in fa-
vour of the landlord.--(Load cheers.) He spoke as a
small proprietor, but all his prospects in life depended
upon land, yet he thought the proposition of the Go-
vernment was one that would prove highly advantageous
to the country.—(Hear, hear.) An argument had been
raised in another place that he was obliged to charac-
terise as in fact foolish ; it was said " for God's sake
don't tax the bread of the people."—(Laughter.)
That was the day on which the Government intimated
their intention to put a duty of Bs. per quarter on wheat,
while at the very moment the duty was 24s.—(Cheers.)
That was treating the gullibility of the people in a way
that they did not deserve, and he would give his warmest
support to the whole proposition of the Government,
thinking it a step in the right direction. Whatever
might be the fate of the question in that House, it was
one of great importance thrown before the people, and
their good sense would induce them to take it up in such
a manner as must make it successful.
Sir R INGLIS had been anxious to address the

louse, because no one on his side of the House had taken

the ground upon which he intended to oppose the propo-
sition of the Government. He looked upon the question
as one connected with slavery and the slave question,
and not one of party at all. The question was not
whether they would adopt the Budget, or reduce the
duties on corn or timber, but whether they would place
the slave-owner in a better position than that which he
new occupied. He complained of the attack that had
been made upon the Bight Hon. Gentleman the Member

for the Tower Hamlets from the other side of the
House. No one could appreciate more highly than him-
self the sacrifices which, during a period of 30 years, his
consistent advocacy of the emancipation of the slaves
had entailed upon the Right Hon. Gentleman. He
thought his last appeal on behalf of these oppressed and
persecuted individuals did him more honour than all his
previous efforts. Although he might not have so high an
opinion of human nature as others, yet he did not think
so ill of it as to suppose that with the miseries of the
slave-trade before them, they would place in a worse
position the inhabitants of the great continent of Africa,
and in a better position those atrocious slave-trading
countries, who would necessarily benefit so much from
the adoption of these measures. It was not more than
three years since that House had unanimously agreed to
address her Majesty, praying her to put an end to the
foreign slave trade ; but he asked the Noble Lord, the
Secretary for the Colonies, how he could come forward and
call upon the slave-trading countries to put down the
iniquitous system, while they themselves brought for-
ward measures, the direct object of which was topromote
and encourage slave-labour ? Those who had taken the
same views of the policy of her Majesty's Government
as himself had been taunted with hypocrisy, but he would
not retaliate upon the opposite party in the same
strain. For his own part, .he could conscientiously
say that he should have felt it his duty
to vote against such measures, from whatever party in
the State they might come. Al what time had thg pro-
position come from the Government ? At the very mo-
ment when they had fitted out an expedition, with the
laudable object of putting an end to the slave-trade •
but, exactly in the same proportion as they had exerted
themselves to send out that expedition, in the same pro-
portion were they stultifying themselves on the present
occasion. He would remind the House of the admission
of the Hon. Member for Cumberland, one of the most
strenuous supporters of her Majesty's Government, that
he thought the measure was calculated to give some en-
couragement to the slave trade. From all these consi-
derations he was induced to withhold his assent to the
present proposition of the Government. One word with
regard to the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary at
W., whose name had been alluded to in the course of
the debate of last night.. No man who took any inter-
est in the question of the slave trade, could fail to
acknowledge their deep obligations to the late Mr.
Macaulay, and he, for one, was not unmindful of, or un-
grateful to that individual for his exertions on behalf of
the oppressed African. He should give his vote in
favour of the resolution of the Noble Lord the Member
for Liverpool.
Mr. C. WOOD expressed his satisfaction that, at
last, some Hon. Member on the other side of the House
had broken through the narrow bounds to which the Noble
Lord who had moved the amendment had endeavoured
to limit the debate. He doubted, however, whether the
omission of the words alluded to by the Right Hon.
Baronet the Member for the University of Oxford would
have so well served the interests of party as the reso-
lution in the shape in which it had been submitted to the
House by the Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool.—
(Hear, hear.) The question to be determined, in Isis
opinion, was, upon what principles their commercial
policy was to be conducted ; and whether, without the
imposition of new taxes, they were to make their income
equal to their expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) That was
the question his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of
the Exchequer had submitted to the House, and they
were about to go into a Committee of Ways and Means
to discuss the question, when the Noble Lord interposed
with the present motion. His Noble Friend the Secre-
tary for the Colonies, and his Right Hon. Friend the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, had distinctly stated that
their objects were, not to add to the burdens of the
people, but to take off some of the pressure that already
existed. It mattered little to the people of that country
—it mattered little to the manufacturing population, who
legitimately looked for relief, under the present distress,
to the financial measures of the Government—it mat-
tered little to them whether each measure was thrown
out by itself, or the question disposed of as a whole. He
had heard from the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
Tamworth, and the Hon. Member for Beverley, a state-
ment of their attachment to free trade. The Hon.
Member for Beverley had expressed his anxiety for
all articles entering into the consumption of the
poor man, but lie was not a little surprised
to find that his practical conclusions resulted in a deter-
mination to oppose a reduction of the duty on sugar.—
(Hear, hear, hear.) He wished to know how far those
principles would carry the Hon. Member and the Hon.
Member for Kilmarnock, in support of the proposition
of the Hon. Member for Whitby, with regard to the
duties on timber. He would be curious also to see
whether they would be ungrateful to the Hon. Mem-
ber for Lincolnshire, who had no objection to a reduction
of the duties on sugar, but who would resist the proposition
for consistency sake, in order that the monopoly in corn
might be supported.—(Hear, hear.) He regretted to
find that with but few exceptions little reference had
been made to the wretched state of the population of
that country. The Hon. Member for Stamford (Sir G.
Clerk) had expressed great indignation at any one on
that (the Ministerial) side of the House being astonished
at the sympathy for the slaves that was manifested by
Hon. Gentlemen on the other side. He (Mr. C. Wood)
should be sorry to suppose that Gentlemen on the other
side of the House did not conscientiously entertain the
opinions on that subject which they now expressed.
But the Hon. Member for Stamford must suppose
hat they possessed but a very short recollection st he
thought they did not recollect the course pursued on this
subject by a large portion of the party to which the Hon.
Gentleman belonged. Although he (Mr. C. Wood) did
not wish to claim for that-side of the House all that had
been done to put an end t slavery and the slave-trade, he
would remind the Hon. Gentleman that the exertions of
Mr. Wilberforce and Mr. Pitt were of little avail, com-
pared with those of the Whig Administration of 1806,
and the resolutions moved by Mr. Canning in 1824 re-
mained but so much waste payer ; the real death-blow
was given to slavery by the Bill on that subject passed
during Lord Grey's Administration. The Hon. Gentle-
man seemed to take most extraordinary views of the
probable effects of the proposed measure. He drew a
highly-coloured picture of slavery, and attributed to
this measure all the horrors of the last forty years. Why,
if the question was to bo made a matter of principle, and
not a matter of degree—and of an infinitely small de-
gree—he (Mr. C. Wood) would be disposed to
yield. (Hear.) If the arguments used on the
other side of the House were of any weight,
he would ask why did they put down the growth of
tobacco in Ireland some few years back ? That tobacco
might have put down slave-grown tobacco. There were
reasons of Menne' 110 doubt, for the prohibition, and
the same was the ease with Fpglio to slave-grown
coffee. By their legislation they gave iiii3 lt4g9ti
to the slave-grown coffee of Brazil over the free,
grown coffee of Hayti. The case of the slave-grown
sugar imported into this country from 13ralsil fur-

rushed a still more forcible-- argument. That sugar
was importedfor the purpose of being sefined, and it was
refused to be introduced for consumption. He would
wish to know where was the distinction. In either case
the slave-grown sugar was purchased. The Right Hon.
Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade said with
truth, to whatever extent you export manufactured
goods to Brazil 'you are to the same extent paid with
slave ;grown sugar. Yet, in those cases just instanced,
no feelings on the part of humanity were shocked. With
respect to the present condition of the working classes he
would trouble the House with a fewextracts fronidocuments
which had come into his hands. One gentleman stated
that among the working classes no man could support
himself at the present moment, and that confidence was
altogether gone. In South Lancashire the labourer was
employed only four days in the week. The Report of
the Assistant Commissioners appointed to inquire into
the state of the hand-loom weavers, stated that with al-
most all of them (the weavers) low wages produced im-
mediate distress, and want of employment produced im-
mediate destitution. "We do not believe (said the Com-
missioners) that any one who has not mixed with the
working classes—we do not believe that we ourselves
can stequately estimate how much mental and
bodily suffering—how much disappointment and
disease are implied in the terms fall of wages.' "
What, he (Mr. C.. Wood) would ask, must be now the
state of those poor people when there was little or no
employment ? To what measures but such as would
improve the trade of the country was that House to look
for a remedy of that state of things ? He was asto-
nished last night to hear an Hon. Gentleman on the
other side of the. House running down the foreign trade
of this country.. It was knoivn that for the last six
years in the' manufacturing districts wages were gra-
dually sinking, whilst the price of corn was gradually
rising. He had thero a statement of the wages in Halifax
and Bradford for the last seven years, accompanied with
the price of corn, which he would read to the House.
The price of corn rose from 465. 2d. to 68s. 9d., in
the year 1834, in the space of a fortnight'
and the wages in that time of the first class
of workmen fell from 10s. to 6s. 9d.' of the second class
from 14s. to 10s., and of the third from 18s. to 13s. 6d.
When bread was cheap men clothed themselves. He
(Mr. Wood) heard from another gentleman that the popu-
lation in other towns were now only half fed, and for
that reason they were unable to purchase clothes, or
most of those articles which were the actual necessaries
of life. Now if trade was bad at home to what could
they attribute it but to the state of our foreign trade,
and the absence of foreign demand? And what was the
cause of that absence of foreign demand? It was the
small amount of our exports to Brazil and other foreign
countries. He (Mr. Wood) thought the time was gone
by when it would be said that we would send out goods
to other countries' without being prepared to take
something in exchange for them.—(Hear, hear.) This
small amount of 'our exports to those countries
was accounted for by the fiscal regulations of our per-
nicious commercial code, which were such as to prevent
our taking goods in return. There was most clear evi-
dence given before the Import Duties Committee, to
prove that the want of comfort, and in some instances of
almost the necessaries of life, experienced by the poorer
classes, was owing to the high price of corn. That was
not confined to the manufacturing artizan only, but ex-
tended to the agricultural labourer also. There was clear
evidence given by a manufacturer of Leicester, that at
the time when the price of corn was high, the agricul-
tural labourer could not afford to purchase necessary
clothino•—the cheap wool and hosiery, which was one of
the staple articles of manufacture in Leicester. That
gentleman stated, as a matter 'of fact, that the commer-
cial travellers from Leicester, who went through the
country for the purpose of selling those articles of cloth-
ing, laid it down as a maxim, that the demand for
those articles in the agricultural districts was
slack in proportion to the high price of corn.
If it were true that the corn duties were a grievance to
the whole population, if the restrictions on trade were
a grievance to the artizan,—he asked if they could look
at the depressed state of all classes, and yet refuse to go
into a CoMmittee to consider what means should be
adopted for their relief ?—(Hear, hear.) He was ready to
admit that some protected interests might suffer. He
would admit further that some of the landlords' rents
might be reduced ; and, in calling upon others to forego
their protection, he was also ready himself to forego that
he had enjoyed.—(Loud cheers.) He might not value it
so much as others ; but, whatever it might be, he con-
sidered that his interests were more bound up in the ge-
neral interests of the country than in any individual
advantage he might derive from such protection.—
(Hear, hear.) One most essential feature of this pro-
position was, that it was not merely a measure for the
relief of trade, but a great financial measure, for the
purpose of raising a revenue.—(Hear, hear.) He
was at a loss to understand the objections that had
been made made to it on the score of time, on any
other principle than that they had originated in party
feelings. The Hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Col-
q proposeduhou n ) had
was t o
disclaimedremove
office.—(Hear, hear.) That might be a reason for the
tthhee m'
presenty et
the
G oovnelryn rme emnetd froml
°
vote he intended to give, but the Honourable Mem-
ber would hardly convince the world that his mind
was; free from the influence of party considerations.
Anything more inconsistent than the arguments em-
ployed against this measure, he (Mr. Wood)
never heard. The Honourable Member for Beverley
said the country would be inundated with Brazilian
sugar, yet he said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer
would derive no revenue from the measure. On which

of these two propositions did the Hon. Gentleman mean
to stand ? It seemed to him (Mr. Wood) a matter of
no great difficulty to show that the expectations of his
Right Hon. Friend were not quite so unreasonable as
gentleman on the other side seemed to suppose. If
there were a decrease in price there would be an increase
in consumption, and if there were an increase in con-
sumption it followed that there would be an increase of
revenue. Hon. Gentlemen opposite disputed the point,
that lowering the price produced increased consumption.
But if they took a paper on the table of the House and
looked at the quantity entered for home consumption,
and at the column which contained the price, they would
see no instance in which there was a remarkable increase
or decrease of consumption that was not accompanied by
a corresponding increase or decrease of price.—(Hear,
hear.) If this was so, he did not think the Chancellor
of the Exchequer could be accused of having taken an
undue estimate of the probable increase of revenue, when
he fixed it at so low a sum as 700,0001. If the Right Gen-
tleman (Mr. Goulburn) allowed this calculation to be cor-
rect, he should like to know on what grounds he
had stated the estimate to be utterly groundless.—
(Hear, hear.) But there was another question of gre..t
importance for the consideration of the House, namely,
what was the proprosition which would be sub-
mitted to the House, if that of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer were defeated. He was sure that those who
were called upon to reject this proposition, ought to
have some intimation of what was to be the alternative.
—(Hear, hear.) He dared say the Hon. Member for
Whitby (Mr. A. Chapman) had been curious enough to
know what was the opinion of those around him on the
subject of the timber duties. Were they to look to an
increase of the duty on timber, or was their only object
to remove the Government in such a manner as to leave
their successors at liberty to introduce the same measure ?
In either hands he feared the fate of the Hon. Member
for Whitby would be the same. He did not deny that
he thought they ()tight to know how the revenue for the
year was to be made good. He had heard of some who
were only anxious for a quiet life, and who, thought that
nothing was so easy as to meet this, like former difficulties,
by a loan ; but he must say that the only fault he had to
find with the financial policy of the present Government
was that they had carried this system too far. He
thought Lord Althorp's proposition for taking off the
taxes was a wise measure. He took off seven millions,
yet the actual loss of income was only two millions. The
next course adopted to meet the difficulties was a tem-
porary loan ; but last year the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer stated that it was impossible to pursue so discre-
ditable and ruinous a system further, and came forward
with a proporition for increasing the taxation, in order to
make it equal to the expenditure of the country. This was,
perhaps, only alporary expedient, but it could not be
denied that it had entirely failed, and that we were, of ne-
cessity, reduced to adopt some other measure. If, then,
they would not take off direct taxation, the only other
mode was that which had been repudiated, not only by
the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, but even still
more strongly by the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member
for Tamworth. . If, then, the House was not prepared to
adopt, the Government proposition, he asked what was
the alternative to which they were reduced ? To pro-
pose the imposition of direct taxes was doubtless . a
straightforward and honest proposition ; but, in the pre-
sent state of the country, would it be right to add to its
burdens before they tried the expedient of relieving
them ? Were they, then, to re-impose such taxes as that
on salt and candles, or a house tax ; or would they fall
back in time of peace to that which had been always
held as a last resource, a property tax ? He could not
agree with those who wished for a tax of that kind,
believing it one which it was most unwise and
inexpedient to impose in time of peace. But if
they imposed that tax they would not relieve trade,
and if not he wished to know to what source they were
to look for improving the revenue ? The only resource
was so to improve trade as to add to the revenue of the
Customs and Excise. If Gentlemen would not do that
they would reject the only mode of relieving trade from
a depression not temporary but arising from the compe-
tition of manufactures on the Continent, and which there
was no other mode of putting down but by relieving our
trade from the fetters which encumbered it.—(Cheers.)
They would reject the only mode of relieving those who
were willing to contribute to the revenue of the country,
and would prevent the population ftom contributing,
as they were willing to do, to its indirect taxation.
Those considerations regarding the interests, the feel-
ings, the welfare, and the future prosperity of the coun-
try weighed with him so heavily, that he was not without
a hope that the House would take into consideration the
proposal of his Noble Friend. But however that night
be, he was perfectly convinced that the state of the coun-
try was such that measures like those could lilt much
longer be deferred.—(Ministerial cheers.) They might
be introduced by others—they might undergo some modi-
fication, but 4s the deeper ruin and distress of the nation
would make their consideration mem imperative, he was
thoroughly.persuaded that sooner or later, and at no very
distant period, Honourable Gentlemen who had come
forward as the strenuous advocates of monopoly in that
House, would find their expectations disappointed, and
that for the general benefit those protecting duties must
bescliminishe(l, gad that; Oto iiitqa§t Ai ttt m P1411143i 4not
be preferred to'the interests of a class,-----(Hear,
Mr. GOULBURN said that when he reflected that
the period at which he was called on to address the
House against a proposal for reducing the duty on
foreign sugar Was that precise period which, by the Act
of Emancipation of the Negrocain the West Indies, was
niaTked out fr the first year in which the ship popula-
fmi. of-tlie4o glit9ni.e4 511.91114 ficalet fveccloin ;. and
when he 1;0-finetoci, also, chat that pel,ind had tteeu antici-
pated by three years by the voluntary act of those cola-

mists ilumselves—whert he reflected on that circumstance,
he could not but consider what would have been the
feeling of that iton,, se,..and of the country, . if,
when his Honourable 'Friend near him had
first proposed to the , House the Act of Emanci-
pation, he had accempanied it by a proposition to
the effect, that as soon as the apprenticeship should cease,
slave-grown sugar should be Admitted without restriction
into the markts of this cottntry.—(Hear, hear.) 'He
bel'eved that if any mair, whatever might have been his
political opinions, had stated
~that such a proceeding
would have been adopted in 1841, the assertion would
have been scouted and 'denounced as an imaginary ap-
prehension. He would have :been told, that if Great
Britain, which was doing an act of justice to the negroes,
immediately on the accomplishment of that act were to
turn round and deprive the West Indies of the protee-
tion which they had enjoyed in our markets, she.would
enter on a proceeding which no, Government could . re-
commend, and which no House of Comiiions could
sanction. And although, with respect to the first part
of that proposition, they had been undeceived by the pro-
Foposals of the Government, he believed that with regard
to the second part of the proposition their confidence
would still be unshaken, and that the House of Commons
would not approve of the measure which the Ministry
submitted for their consideration.—Hear, hear.) In
that view of the question it mattered not whether the
measure was brought forward as a financial one or as a
part of the budget ; for when he remembered the cir-
cumstances under which the Emancipation Act was
passed, the House could not, in his opinion, adopt such
a proposal. The measure had been brought forward as
one of financial policy, and the justification offered for it
was the extreme necessity of the country. He (Mr.
Goulbourn) did not then, any more than on a former
occasion, deny that w e had arrived at a crisis in the
financial affairs of thecountry which demanded the im-
mediate application of.,.a_ reniedy.—(Hear, hear.) He
did not, and he could not; deny that ; but, while he ad-
mitted it, he was bound to say . also that those who were
responsible for the crisis were bound to prepare an ade-
quate remedy.—(Cheers and counter cheers.) It was
not sufficient for the Right Hon. 'Gentleman, the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, or the Noble Lord at the head
of the Government, to Come forward and say that they
proposed a measure for the reduction of the duty on
sugar, which would give them 700,000/. a year,
while they were absolutely silent as to the
mode in which the revenue could possibly be
so greatly increased. For his part he thought that the
explanation given on the subject by the Noble Lord the
Secretary for the Colonies was altogether inefficient.
Hon. Members on his (Mr. Goulburn's) side of the House
had been taunted by diction. Member for Halifax because
they adopted two inconsistent -modes of argument. The
truth was, however, that they were driven into opposite
courses by the contradictory statements of Ministers,
and the fault was not in the reply to the propositions but
in the propositions themselves. But he should like to know
in what mode the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed to
arise those 700,000/. from an alteration in the duties on
sugar. The Right Hon. Goirtaman required no more from
the contemplated alteration than was raised under the
present system in the year 1828, when the duty on sugar
realized 5,000,0001., whilst the Right Hon. Gentleman
anticipated only 4,400,000/. under the new duty. He
was consequently persuaded that they might raise the
revenue to the required amount, without the nostrum
proposed by the Government: The only effect of the
contemplated measure wouldbe:an alteration, probably, in
the revenue ; but at the same time they would substi-
tute a certain quantity of Brazil or Cuba sugar for that
of our West India colonies, and would thus give a com-
mensurate incitement to that slave-trade which they
had been so desirofis to remove ?—(Hear, hear, hear.)
The Hon. Member for Halifax had made it a great
ground of complaint against Members on his (Mr.
G.'s) side, that they did not enter upon the general
question of commercial policy. But he (Mr. G.)
did not think that they would be justified in entering
upon the discussion of any other question than that of
the sugar duties, which had been submitted to the consi-
deration of the House by her Majesty's Government.—
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman accused those on
the Opposition side of being opposed to all reduction.
But he would tell the Hon. Gentleman that they by no
means resisted reduction, when it was consistent with
financial and commercial policy.—(Hear, hear.) The
price of sugar was already, below that to which the mea-
sure of the Government would reduce it.—(Hear, hear.)
At the same time, if they looked to the last fifteen years,
and took the periods in which the consumption
of sugar was the greatest, the price would be found
to be above the price upon which the Noble
Lord had calculated as that which would increase the
consumption to the large benefit of the revenue, which
Ministers were pleased to anticipate.—(Hear, and a
laugh.) It was his own firm belief that the consumption
of' sugar would not be increased by any legislative enact-
ment beyond the present amount, and it was on that
ground lie was of opinion that the rate of duty ought to
be left as it was. It had been asserted that they (the
Opposition had no sympathy with the feelings of the
poorer classes of their countrymen, and great pains had
been taken to contrast the unfortunate condition, and the
privations of the industrious classes in this country, with
the happy state of the slaves in the Brazils. But,
without regretting the happiness of the slaves,
or wanting a proper sense of the sufferings
which his own countrymen had sometimes to endure,
he • must say that he did not think that the re-
duction contemplated in the duty upon slave-grown sugar
would tend greatly to improve the condition of the la-
bouring classes of Great Britain.—(Hear, hear.) It had
also been stated that he, and those with whom he acted,
were indifferent to the importance of our foreign trade.
Now, for himself, he must say that he had, for the
greater part of his political life, served with Mr. Ibis-
kisson, and supported him in Parliament—(Hear)—and
although lie had in the latter part of their connexion the
misfortune to dissent from that lamented friend on some
points, yet he had been so long known as a supporter of
his policy, that it could not reasonably be supposed he
was indifferent to the prosperity of our trade in any
branch. He was quite alive to the value, both' of our
colonial and foreign commerce, and the only distinction
which he would make in favour of either would be
grounded on this question alone ; which of them em-
ployed the greater number. of our own population ?
(Hear, hear.) Much stress had been laid upon the dis-
satisfaction with England which prevailed in Brazil, and
the importance of conciliating that country, before the
commercial treaty expired.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
But lie did not ascribe the dissatisfaction to
the same cause. He believed it arose only
from our efforts to put down the slave trade.— (Cheers
from the Opposition)—and whether we conciliated the
friendship of the Brazilians, by relaxing in those efforts,
or by the measure now before the House, the effect
would 1.);..‘ the same, to cover this country with odium and
contempt.—(Cheers and cries of " Oh, oh !") The No-
ble Member for Halifax said that, as we already took the
cotton and tobacco of the Brazils, why should we refuse
to take their sugar ?—(Hear.) But he should remind
the Hon. Gentleman that this was a question whether
we should open our markets to a slave-labour product
against which they were_elosed before.—(Hear, hear.)
it they first abandoned the sugar duty, and then went to
Brazil for the purpose of obtaining additional powers
from that nation for the suppression of the slave trade,
they would be going with their hands tied, and without
the means of inducing Brazil to consent to any such mea-
sure. lie would, therefore, recommend the Right Hon.
Gentleman to follow the example which his Noble
Friend had set in his negotiations with Texas, and
to which allusion had been made during the de-
bate last evening, and to pause before he made
reductions which must be injurious to our own colonies,
until he was certain that by so doing he could be securing
the paramount interests of justice and humanity.—
(Hear, hear.) The President of the Board of Trade had
given a brilliant, but at the same time a just description
of the great natural advantages possessed by the Brazils,
with a view to commercial objects. But, while he had
been thus enlarging on the peculiar advantages possessed
by that foreign country, he had forgotten to advert to
the-superior advantages enjoyed by a possession which
was no foreign country, the population of which was not
like the population of Brazil, confined to six millions
of inhabitants, one of which was a slave population, and
therefore unable to consume our manufactures so exten-
sively—but a country which was inhabited by a free
people in the highest state of civilization, with rivers
extending through a tast and densely-populated country,
anti which was fully eilitaltaThe Brazils in the possession of
the means of making-a- return for our manufactures.
He saw the Noble Lord the Member for Totnes whis-
pering to the Right lion. Gentleman, and no doubt ht,,
was confidentially communicating to him, although at
rather a late period certainly, the information.. which
had been communicated to the Import Committee, as to
the capacity of India to become_amost extensive cus-
tomer for our manufactures-.—(Cheers)—and that all she
required was the power of making returns for our efforts,
and that the only return she could make was in sugar.—
(Loud cheers.) He would therefore ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman to have some corresponding feeling for India.
—(Cheers.) He was aware that many persons had em-
barked a large amount of capital in India ; by adopting
this course they would check the rising prosperity of
India. If they-WOW to the rising prosperity of India
—to the sources which India possessed for making
us returns for our manufactures—he believed
that no better customer for England could be
found than India—(Hear, hear)—and that India
would take, not like Brazil, our coarser articles only, but
that she would take, also, our more elaborate manufac-
tures. When the Hon. Gentleman expressed his fears
that, by giving an increased stimulus to the diversion of
capital into India, did he forget that, by the measure
proposed, he would create a diversion of capital into
Brazil which would be employed in the production of an
article which must necessarily give encouragement to
slavery and the slave trade, that British capital would be
made accessory to the forwarding of that traffic which
Parliament had so recently denounced ? Ile would refer
to the documents which had been last year laid on the
table by the Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign
Affairs, to prove this assertion. It would thus be found
that the Commissioners had reported that British capital
had been employed in the Brazils in forwarding the
and that it had been proved that
slave trade, and in cultivating laud by- slave labour.
—(Cheers.) Surely the Noble Loixi would acknowledge
Bnreirisii; capital was diverted into
peseraklednebyestinateeasnssvereef
the truth of the fact,
not in one, two, or three instaininc
pas Able stimulus to the introduc-
tion i tlnd that was(liYine(lotilileirvia°rglaiti--
etßiulrelittißivsarahtezeiliipsibtfyaolr.niebTgerhness purpose
of
being e
aipl
tiin:tohte
claaspvistaol
of the
In The Right Hon.
Member for Edinburgh had said that the
GmeenltttlefciniragnlYtlll7 "°l7
we had -pekormed our duty
question of the encouragement of slavery ought Reit to
divert them from their purpose on the proatusi ooeaslon ;
(4,1 v4en we liar taken upon ourselves to ter-
minate shivery ni our own territories, and to put a stop
to the slave trade, and that it was no portion of niw
al that we were bound to do. He was
etnhnaatttubiac.ealcso:iirbultyingtotoprheilsvvni:•:::
slave
trade
in
foreign coun-
tries, lint that when wo put a stop to slavery ourselves
we had done

anxious to protest against such a' doctrine.-L-:(116.6%) It
had been the fashion to saythat-thirAVAtrGb4rernment
was the only Government which had proposed and exe-
cuted measures for the extinction of this traffic. True,
they had proposed and executed the two great measures
for the abolition of the slave trade and for the abolition
of slavery, and he was free to admit that the proposing
and carrying of these two great measures did them
the highest honour (Loud cheers) and he had
given his humble support to both those measures.
He could not forget when these claims were made on be -
half of the Whig Government the part, which had been
talte-nhy a Government.to which he had belonged. He
could not forget that at the treaty Of yieima the British
negotiator, acting under orders from a Conseivative Go-
vernment, brought all the Powers of Europe to a unani-
mous. declaration that they would exert their _utmost
powers for the suppression of the slave trade.—(Loud
cheering.) Though he would not attempt to dis-
parage the acts to which he had before alluded,
yet he could not but think that the period would arrive
when the world would bless the country which authorised,
and _Minister who proposed, a declaration so honourable to
humanity—(cheers)—and he could never admit that we
had fulfilled the obligation which the treaty had
imposed on us by our Emancipation Act. No sooner
had the Negro Emancipation been carried than the Hon-
ourable Baronet, the -Member for Oxford, called upon the
House to address the Crown, beseeching the Crown to use
every effort in its power to induce foreign Powers to con-
sent to the abolition of the slave-trade. The' Noble
Lord had cordially united with them on that
occasion as to the necessity of pursuing measures
to give effect to the treaty of Vienna. The Noble Lord
had on this occasion not only given an account of the
steps which he had taken to attain that object, but he
also stated the difficulties which he had encountered. In
1839 an address from the other House of Parliament
had confirmed those views, and again the Government
had been called on to leave no means untried for the
suppression of that traffic which was represented as being
more especially carried on by Cuba and the Brasils
from which it was now proposed that sugar should
be admitted. (Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord
had on that occasion explained that he had received fro .n
all those Powers expressions of their willingness to sup-
press the traffic, but that they used no efforts for that
purpose ; and when the Noble Lord should be next
called upon to urge upon those Powers the necessity of
taking more active measures for the suppression of the
slave-trade, he did not think that they would be
inclined to agree to his proposition, when they found,
by his own acts and speeches, he was encouraging
that very product, the cultivation of which gave the
greatest stimulus to the traffic. He was opposed to the
present measure, because he considered it useless as a

measure of finance, which could produce no revenue,
except at the expense of our colonies, to which it must
prove deeply injurious,and because it would give-a direct
encouragement to slave labour, which he felt bound by
every motive of humanity, and every feeling of justice to
our own colonies, to discourage. For these reasons, he
should support the resolution of his Noble Friend.
Sir G. GREY said that, on the third night of this de-
bate, he was happy to have it in his power to impress
upon the House an important disclosure which had been
made by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, in the
speech just made to the House. It would be in the recol-
lection of the House that on the night when his Right
Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced
his scheme, the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite concurred
in the opinion that decisive measures must be taken in

order to make up the deficiency. They cautiously re-
served, as they had a perfect right to do, their opinion on
the subject until this scheme had been brought before
them. Hon. Gentlemen on that side had, in three nights'
debate, been anxiously expecting to hear what were the
opinions of the Right Hon. Gentleman, not only on the
whole financial statement of his Right Hon. Friend, but
without entering into minute details, by what means
he would propose to supply the deficiency ; and what was
the answer of the Hon. Gentleman in answer to the re-
peated questions proposed to him ?--(Hear.) Why, he
said he would just leave things alone.—(Cheers from both
sides of the House.) Such was the satisfactory announce-
ment made to the House by the Right Hon. Gentleman.
The attention of the country had been fixed on the sub-
ject of the Import Duties for the last six months, ever
since that much traduced, but valuable Report had
appeared, which united the whole country irrespectively
of political opinions.—(Tory cheers.) He (Sir G.
Grey) thought the country would hear with anything
but satisfaction that it was the intention of the Govern-
ment, who intended to succeed that now in existence
to leave the deficiency in the revenue altogether
untouched.--(Cheers from both sides of the House.) He
was sorry that in the speeches of the Right Hon. Gen-
tlemen opposite, there had been no distinct enunciation
of the principle on which their opposition was
founded. The Hon. Member for Newark stated
to the House at the commencement of his address, that
he did not come there to discuss principles.—(Hear,
hear.) He (Sir G. Grey) would have thought, that on
a question of that kind, he at least would have been
anxious to propound some principle by which the con-
science of the State might be guided.—(Hear, hear.)
But the Hon. Member distinctly stated that it was
not a question of principle.—(" No, no," from the Tory
benches, and cheers from the Ministerial benches.) He
rested his opposition entirely upon the promise of a
greater supply from the West Indies during the coming
year than had been received for several years past. In
another part of his speech the Hon. Gentleman concur-
red with his Hon. Friend, the Member for the Tower
Hamlets, and had adopted all that horror of sla-
very which had exposed his Hon. Friend to the shafts of
malevolence from the-West India body. It turned out,
however, that the principle was to be maintained
only when sugar was at 57s.—(Hear, hear, ,hear.)
On that side of the House he had no such complaint
to make. The objections to the measure had been,stated
clearly and distinctly, and Hon. Gentlemen opposite had
cheered their speeches. To what principle were, those
cheers applied ? The Hon. Member for Lincoln had
said, treating this a whole, that if he admitted the prin-
ciple contained in these measures, they would touch the
capital, and down would come the Corn-laws. , That
having resisted it in one case, he would be in a better
p Isition to resist it in the other.—(hear.) Were lion.
Gentlemen opposite prepared to adopt that argunio,nt ?
—(Hear, hear.) Would there be the same eagerness to
protect the West Indies, if they did not believe that this
was an outwork which must be defended in order to
maintain their position with respect to the existingt Corn-
laws ?—(Cheers.) The Hon. Member fir the Tower
Hamlets would not consent under any circumstances to
admit slave-made sugar into this country. Dld the
Noble Lord or the Right. lion. Gentleman opposite
adopt that principle ?—{Hear, hear.). It would be satis-
factory to the country to know from the Right Hon...
Gentleman who had addressed the House, put fOrward
as he was as the agent of the Right Hon. Gentleman and
of that great party with which he was connecter{ that
however extravagant the price of sugar mighA be, his
determination was to make no alteration,; "and that the
consumer should in no case have the benr.fit of competi-
tion.—(Hear, hear.) He must say that the extreme hor-
ror which hadextreme been expressed with regard to slavery,
coming, as it did, with a good grace - from hi, Hon.
Friend, came with a very ill grace or, any of those who
joined in it. The petition presented a few nights ago
by the Hon. Baronet opposite i:aplored the House. not to
incur the guilt of slavery--Jutting that forward ast a plea
which was to excite the warm and generous feelings of
the people of England—feelings which had been evinced
in that profuse gift which had been so liberally showered
upon themselves. They knew that they could not main-
tain their position without enlisting those feelingsothere-
fore they professed a great horror of slayery.—
(Hear, hear.) He would ask his Noble Friend opposite
was it against sugar only that he intended to wage war ?
Would it not be extended to many articles the produce
of slave labour which were indispensable articles of con-
sumption ? The English were a great commercial peo-
ple. They had, infinitely to their honour, abolished
slavery, in spite of opposition for a series of years ema-
nating from that very party which now came before the
House to complain of encouragement being given to slavery.
Having done that, having dissolved all connection with
slavery, was it to be said they were to sacrifice the in-
terests of the, people of this country by waging war
against all slave produce ? The Hon. Member for Newark
had endeavoured to draw a distinction between bettors
and coffee, and he stated that in the produce of those
articles there was great difference in the labour of the
slave—that was a distinction which the Hon. Gentleman
was more competent to decide than he (Sir G. Grey)
was.—(Cheers.) But that was a species of argument
which the people would not tolerate ; it was against
the principle of slavery the people were determined
to contend, however mild it might be. Did his Hon.
Friend believe the people of this country would draw a
distinction between the slavery which .existed under a
burning sun, and that which was carried on in the cotton-
trade in America; ? The strength of the people on the
subject of the slave-trade had been shown with respect
to the exportation of Hill Coolies, and even the Right
Hon. Baronet himself had rather an active part in check-
ing that which he thought tended to slavery. Tho Hon.
Member for Newark, had stated that they were aban-
doning a principle long acted upon with respect to the
slave-trade ; he denied that they were doing so. No one
knew better than his Hon. Friend that those duties on
sugar were placed upon it long before the abolition
of the slave trade. There was nothing in the prohi-
bitory duties, except by the merest accident, which had
the effect of changing slavery or the slave trade. If the
House acted upon the principle laid down by the Right
Hon. Gentleman, they must revise the whole commercial
tariff, in order to exclude every article that was produced
by slave labour. Now, that he thought was a principle that
could not be acted upon by a great commercial country ;
more, perhaps, might be done than had been in order to
check English capital from finding its way into other
countries, for the purpose of carryinc, on slave labour.
It had been said that English money had found its way
into Cuba and the Brazils, in order to employ slaves.
If such was the case, it was a most shameful
transaction, especially if that money Caine, as had been
stated, froin those who professed their abhorrence of it ;
but he thought he knew an instance where the name of
an Hon. Member had been seen to a Company working
mines in the Brazils where slaves were, employed. The
Right Hon. Gentlemen here read a document to show
that slaves were employed in every one of the colonies
of the country, and observed that he thought the course
that had been pursued by those who opposed the measure
proposed by Government arose from a political pretext.
lie was very glad to see that even the Hon. Gentlemen
opposite had given up the petition which had been pre-
sented by the West India interest. Even the Hon.
Member far Newark, who was formerly a West India
Rdyooate, had now changed his interest, and was the ad-
vocate of the East India interest.—(Loud cheers.) The
great object of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite was, to
show that the supply from the East and the West In-
dies was to be enoiutli for the demand ; but what was the
ground upon which the Hon. Gentlemen made such a
proposition ? We had now been four years acting under
the assimilated duties, yet the supply from that coun-
try had not increased adequately_ to the expecta-
tions formed.—(Hear, hear.) The question before the

House was, whether protection should be substituted
for prohibition.—(Loud cheers.) It -was said upon a
former occasion, that the importation of East India sugar
would pauperise the negro, but he would ask whether
that prediction had been' borne out by the facts ? his
Right Hon. Friend
.had taken security against any mono-
poly, while at the same time he took security against
any scarcity that might arise. It was said that the mea-
sure proposed by the Government would bring the negro
race. back to a state of barbarism. That would indeed
be a matter for lamentation, but he could not see in
what way the Hon. Me.nbers made out such a case.
England . bad set a noble example in the sacri-
fice, not only of twenty millions, but in
consenting to bear a taxation of ten millions in the in-
creased price of sugar—(Cheers)—but was that sacrifice
to be made indefinite ?--7(Cheers.) Was that House to
proclaim that the great experiment of emancipation had
been a failure ?—(Cheers.) They would do so if they
decided that the West India colonies required so much
protection that a differential duty of 50 per cent. would
not do, that such a protection was not adequate. Hon. I
Members on the other side, and among the others the
Hon. Member for Newark, had stated that they did not
come there to discuss principles, and the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Cambridge stated' that he
should not enter into a general and desultory discussion
of the subject. It might be a prudent course for them to
take, but he believed the country would see through it.—
(Loud cheers.) They would duly appreciate the unwil-
lingness of Hon. Members opposite to grapple with the
principles laid down by her Majesty's Government. And
although they might dwell with satisfaction upon their an-
ticipated triumph, and the result of the coming division,
he believed with his Hon. Friend the Member for Balifax,
that the more the question was discussed, the better it
would be understood by the country.—(Renewed cheers.)
He believed, the better it was understood, the less
chance there was, whatever pretext or guise they might
assume, to enlist the sympathies of the sound-thinking
portion of the community on their side of the question.
the more the question was discussed, and the better it
was understood, the more certain would be the triumph of
the principles submitted to the House by her Majesty's
Ministers.—(Loud and general cheering.)
Lord SANDON rose to explain, but was met with
loud cries of "Spoke," "Adjourn," &c., which ren-
dered it impossible to catch his observations distinctly.
We understood the Noble Lord to complain that the
Right Hon. Baronet had attributed to him sentiments

which he entirely disowned. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man had interpreted his cheers as if he had agreed in
the Right Hon. Gentleman's exposition of the sentiments
of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the Tower
Hainlets, which was not the case.—(Loud cries of
" Spoke," " Adjourn.")
Mr. GOULBURN also explained. The Right Hon.
Gentleman had imputed to him that he had stated that
in the present crisis of affairs it was necessary that
nothing should be done.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
What he stated was that they were in a crisis which de-
manded great exertion, but the additional revenue that
would be derived from sugar under the circumstances of
the quantity announced by the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Chancellor of the Exchequer to be in the course of
arrival from the East and West Indies would be sufficient,
and he had said that that revenue would be obtained by
their doing nothing.—(Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Sir G. GREY in explanation,
Mr. BROTHERTON rose and moved the adjournment
of the debate.—(Loud cries of " Adjourn," " Go on,"
" Divide," &c., for some minutes.)
Mr. IRVINE said that it was not his intention to
have said a word on the subject, if he had not beon
singled out by the Right lion. Gentleman (Sir G. Grey)
to justify some remarks which were made in answer to
the questions put by the Committee of which he was a
member. He (Mr. Irvine) thought that if the evidence
of Mr. M'Quean were read by every Member of that
House, it would give them a due and just' account of
what the West Indies have been and what they are now—
of what they were likely to become in the event of such
a measure taking place as was contemplated by her Ma-
jesty's Government. He was sure that if the Govern-
ment had that consideration which was due to the'
country, and to the great principles on which
the country was hitherto governed they would not have
proposed the present measure. They would hesitate in
carrying that measure. He agreed with Mr. M'Quean,
that the West Indies would become a place of desolation
if the present Bill were carried. The question at present
under consideration was not, in his opinion, argued ac-
cording to true principles. He could not pass over the
accusation that he was connected with a gold mine
worked by slaves. It was perfectly true that, ke a great
number of persons opposed to the slave trade' he had a
share in property worked by slave-labour. He doubted not
there were many persons in the House as much concerned
in mining as he was, and he wished them joy of their
speculations.—(Laughter.) He hoped they would be
more fortunate than he had been.—(Loud laughter.)
Much was said about the blood he had squeezed out of
the negro, but he could squeeze no gold. He doubted
not:that the Right Hon. Baronet would be glad of a share
in it if it were a profitable speculation.—(Laughter.)
The House had paid a large sum for the emancipation
of the negro, but another Government had valued the
negroes at 140 millions, and if the House would do the
justice they were so fond of talking of, they would pay the
planters the other 120 millions.—(Loud laughter.) This
was a subject in which he had a deep interest, and he
therefore trusted the House would excuse his obtruding
himself on their attention.—(Hear hear.)
Mr. BROTHERTON moved the adjournment of the
debate, which was agreed to.
PUBLIC PARK AT THE EAST-END.

,
Mr. E. J. STANLEY proposed that the How ,
should agree to a resolution authorising her. Majkle,.,s
Co.nmissioners of Woods and Forests to devote dr, „,,
of 100,0001. accruing from the sale of York-hor,se, and
the interest received upon the sum of 72,0001.'
York-house had been purchased, to the P for which
..n.mation of a
park in the east-end of the metropolis.
for the purpose was Bonner's-fields, ar. ~"....he site chosen
d a portion of the
vicinity, consisting in all of 290 acw's,
Sir H. PEEL wished to know
ac-
cruing from the sale of York,j)' 'whether the money
,Atse would cover the entire
of the estimated expense (kt 'ch„thdertaking.
. Mr. E. J. STANLEY, 'said that the sale and the inte-
rest thereon amounts , as he before stated, to 100,000/.,
and he believed 0,01: sum would be quite sufficient for the
intended purpe,6e
Mr. KElrip:„E thought that so large a sum should
not. be votJ at that late hour, and in so thin a House.
Mr; F'• -0. STANLEY exp
woulied that the resoiution
ft rderely enable him to brlainng in a Bill for the ap-
Pikat'.on to the object he had stated of the money ac-
cru'ng from the sale of York-house. The property was
.r.ot public, but belonged strictly to the Crown.
Colonel SIBTHORP opposed the resolution.
Mr. E. J. STANLEY having again explained, the re-
solution was agreed to.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of,
and the House adjourned at a Quarter to One o'Clock.