The Sun.
London, England, 1815-06-09 00:00:00

SLAVE TRA DE

Lord GoitsrviLLE .said before the
Order of. the.Toay was entered ujJort, call. the al.-.
tendon of their Lordships to a stthjeet ill Which
he OVerned ,the, honour rur ,of Par and the
cti.;;lttiiie
:ry,;(B.),)biet
e;kirt,eertly iovoly.cd. in the papers op-
was.ao Article enjoining, that
a comutonication was to be made to Louis XVIII.
aecede, tit the engagements
made hetween the Allied Sovereigns. On that he
would not then express any,opinion ; but there was
a, subject not adyerted to in that Article, but
which must,, of necessity, forinTho essential part
of the consideration.with, that Monarch. Their
Lordships knew it was an express wish of both
libtises of Parliament, that at the late peace the
restoration of the Drench Colonies shoull be ac-
companied. by an eugagtment on the part of
France, for the complete and total abolition. of
the Slave Trade; and they knew that from that
moment. tothe present, nottlio . but partial ar-
rangement or regulation was deterininel upon.—
They were aware that at the late change in the
Government of France; the person who de facto
ruled that country, had immediately t! a
Decree of the complete aild total abolition-
of the Slave Trade ; and- though he had so
much reason ..to censure so many of the ac-
tions of that. per Son, indeed the whole tenor
of his public or political life, yet he should
he sorry to withhold in any
,degree the praise to
that great act of justice and humanity. The
French Slave Trade being now de facto abolished,
if the result of the operations now about to be
entered upon should be another change of Go;.,
vernment in France (and he hoped that the cause
we bad espoused would finally triumph in France)
he trusted this country would, in such an event,
never contribute to the restoration of that atro-
cious traffic .on the part of France : he hoped
those to whom the Government of this cotnitrY
was trusted, would think it incumbent on thent
to see that justice was done in that respect. He
trusted it would be clearly understood, that flag
country never can, under any circumstances, or
in any manner, execute the Treaty alluded to,
without a distinct stipulation, or having it clearly
understood that the great work theyhad just seen
perfected in France should not be overthrown.—
A proposal of this kind, he decidedly thought it
the duty of this country to make ; if not, her
twist cover themselves with stains of the
deepest hypocrisy.
The Ears of LtvEittioot, entirely concurred in
,the opinion with the Noble Lord, that it was the
duty of his Majesty's Government to exercise
every means within their power to accomplis}t
that which they telt, as well as the Noble Lotil,
would now tend so modh to the honour and tiled-
Vantage•of Great Britain; Ile hail no'diffieoity in
stating, that from the period to which the Noble
Lord referred, the subject had occupied the anxious
attention of the Prince Regent's Government, that
measures were already adopted with a, view to
give full effect to the Noble Lord's wish, aad to
that of the Parliament and of the Country ; and
the Prince's Servants had strong reason to hope
those measures would be effectual ; and he would
at least undertake, on the part of the Prince Re-
gent's Government, to say, that no etfoi ss would
be wanting on their parts to complete generally
the great work in question, amid particularly in
respect to the Government of France, and that no
negociation should take place 'with that country
without every exertion being made to bring that
great and desired work to a favourable

CATHOLIC QUESIION.

The Doke of SussiX.presented 3 Petition front
certain of his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects,
of the County Palatine of Lancaster.
•The Earl of DONOUGHMORE presented Petitions
from the Catholic inhabitants of certain counties
in Ireland, from the town and neighbotiihood
Sheffield, anti other places in this country; and.
lastly, a Petition frunt the Catholic's of Great
Britain, generally coniplaining of their exclusion
from the benefits of the_British Constitution, &c.
Ordered to lie on the table.

The Order for itinimoning their' Lordships
being read,
The Earl of DONOVGIIMORE observed, that the
proposition which lie was about to submit to their
Lordships, was entirely distinct and independent
of any ResoltitionS that might have been printed
and circulated before discussion had taken place.
He derived no benefit from teat new mode of
coining forward to Parliament ; at the sainn rime
he gave no opinion upon it. He next stated, that
the precise object of -his presebt motion %% -iu-
q...tiry alone, and that their Lordships should
ereby take into their consideration the state of
Lis Majesty's Catholic subjects in Great EHlaia
Ireland. His wish also was to impress upon
their minds, the justice and policy of granting
their claims to a removal of all their civil aad po-
litical disabilities; but, in the first instance, he
would urge their Lordships to constitute an in-
quiry into the whole of the important subject. In
the present state of the Catholics of the United.
Kingdom, great and injurious anomalies existed ;
those of Scotland were placed a very different
sitnation Irotn those in England ; and those in
Ireland, in many important respects, were •dif-
ferent from both. One of his oijects, there-
fore, would be to procure d Facet equa-
lity of system for all. The case of the Ca-
tholics of Ireland should form a prominent con-
sideration—they constituted the immense majo-
rity of fottr-fifths of the population of Ireland.—
Tlicifobject, and which he adverated for them,
was to be placed In the same situation as his iN,l,i-
jesty's other subjects, saving, however, what re-
lated to the Protestant succession to the Crown,
and the Church 'Establishment as settkd by
As to the conshkr3tion of securities with respect
to those, he knew of nxootillesc;%enlitcilL:yuliol
,taylly(ti.ats : he meant that prescrib-
edthat oath which the Catholics had freely and
upwardsch itl I yo
tt.,Ett
the Act of 1793. The Pope, long sty for.
by bgsoert%:Yduf'ol'rt

' -soldahle in tide way of objectinn , . could he no
),Iger held out as a bugbear. -There was, no
e:nnuninication whatever 6tvreen the IrishClitrch
and-the See of- Monte in the least touching the
protstant religion,' or the reotestant establish-
/malts i;i that country. All that now took place
eras thelavestittire -of the Irish Catholic Bishops
1-..ith the consecrated. Pall. He- did not `-see
.thy ls-hy the Catholic Hierarchy 2hould be interfered
diev
_wanted no stipend, or arty thing else
from the• British Govetnment. lle then expatiated
ou the policy of eoadliatirig, by every fair and
constitutional means, every clays and descriptiOn
+:t his Mojesty's subjects i and after enforcing
these topics with some fdrther argument and alas--
aration„ 'concluded by moving-,
'' Thar this 'loose take into its consideration, in a Corn-
zhittet of the whole House, the pre cut state of his Majesty's
7tor.tait sithjects'of Great Britain and eland with
'reference to the laws fry which they still continue ,to 1:e de-
inked-of the real ben,fits of the ISritish-Constitution:: .
The Earl of BUCKINGIIASISHME was decidedly
of opinion, that upon the Act of -1793: a stand
should lie made, because by it was given every
thing that those Catholics could consistently enjoy
tinder a Protestirut Government, and every thing
essential to their rational freedom, their happiness,
and their 'neosperity. With respect to the oath on.
•which the Noble Earl .bad so strongly remarked,
Lx entertained a contrary opinion, and begged
leave to say, that the oath, though not the-same
es originnliy- proposed, was not substantially dif-
ferent front what waS•approved by the Irish gene-
rally, and it was even framed in consequence of
a declaration made by the Irish Catholics them-
selves ; and he begged leave farther to say,
that what the Catholics then asked for was
short of what they actually obtained by that
Act. But it was the Oath of Supremacy the great
bond of .the union, between Church 'and State,
Nvilich they would have to take, in, order fully to
'Vice them on the same tooting with their Pen-
aestatit fellow-subjects—and until they took that,
they were incapable of so participating: .as
rein supremacy was an immutable principle with
the Catholics. On this topic he would refer the
:Noble Lord to a hirh authority, which he re,
spected, and which, he believed, the Noble Lord
himself respected still more. He was equally dis-
tinguished for his great 'abilities, and-for the part
lie took with respect to the Catholic cause. He
meant the Noble Lord's own Father. • He stated
on the Bill of 1793, that the great bulwark of the
Constitution was a Protestant Parliament, Lords
and ' Commons, and Judges--but that with
these it would be no infringement of the
Constitution to give the .Catholics the
joymeot of the elective franchise. his own
opt trop was, that in a final settlement with the
Catholics (the practicability of which 'he doubt,
ed), every thing may be given them but the Par-
liament, the State, and the Church ; and he con- •
ceived it might be done without their suffering any
thing in their political or even in their civil capa-
cities. But from the Noble Lords view 'of the
subject, and in the absence of necessary s, curities;
he could not think the going into a Committee
'Was a fit measure for their Lordships to adopt.
lie quoted the Resolutions of the Catholic Pre-
lates on the accession of the late Bill on the sub-
ject, in support of what he advanced, and he
therefore thouqht that until the Catholic Prelates
!Should change their opinions,•all such securities
as had been proposell twist be illusory. Refer-
ring to what. the Noble Lord had said on the to-
pic of the Union, he justified the conduct of the
Government on that occasion ; averred that no
provkion had been made as to the removal of
the Catholic disqualifications : hilt simply an as-
surancr given that their claims should hoftilly
and .caodidly discussed in an Imperial Parliament,
which. it Was amply on record had been :most
fully and ably, as well as repeatedly done, con-
ten:iing that the Act of 1793 contained a good
aild favourable settlement for the - Catholics,
and that the Union was a most- advantageous
measure for Ireland. The Noble Earl -con-
eholed by expressing his dissent from the motion:
Lord DE DUNSTANYILLE spoke shortly against.
the motion. - • . .
Lord GEENVILLE approved of what .fell from
Lis Noble Friend as to his proposition having no
connection, with the Resolutions alluded to ; and
with him, he distinctly disclaimed every sort of
• influence derivable from a principle of external
dictation. Nothing therefore, should induce him •
to vote for the Resolutions as they now stood ; •
but if he voted for the question, it should only be
because he believed that the subject deserved the
maturest deliberation. There never was a las++
framed with more liberality than that of 1793 ;
but without wishing to depreciate that law, lie
must say, that circumstances had since materially
altered its relations. The consideration of the te-
corities was of the utmost consequence, and when-
ever it Might. come on, he-should meet it with a
mind perfectly unprejudiced. It WRS•not a point
for consideration, this day; bat he should be glad
to -find that the time for it was near at band.--
More than this it was not necessary for him to .
say; but he-intreated their Lordships to lay out
of their minds all prejudice that might influence
them 'front that which had been improperly done
L6rdship, alluded to the late Resolutions- of
the Catholics), and only to consider whether the
great body of the Catholic inhabitants of the
empire could be rendered more free, more happy,
And more contented with the Constitution, whose
they
_might thus more fully enjoy.
'1 ha Earl of LIVERPOOL. felt it not-necessary to
emir into any discussion of the subject at this
tine ; conceiving that another opportunity would
be far more appropriate. But he would ask whe-
ther any benefit could arise from acceding to the
;notion of the Noble Lord, of entering imme-
diately into the Consideration of the question ?.---
Ile did not think it possible that the House could
go into. its &nsideration with any satisfaction at
time. This was not, in-his opinion, a ques-
tion of enriniry. We knew all.the advantages and.
disadvantages of the system ; •anti ticiiersoit could
Say that the Hoose -was- vot fitly apprised of it in•
all its- bearings.- .would sizund :a considerable
alarm M the 'country- if now consiclei.ed and he
Awls not inclined to:create au evil without know-
ing what would be. the remedy foi• it. It the
enquiry should not end in way that the Noble
Lord wished, it would create „disappointment ;
std he would say, _that h'e conceit t:ci the proper
course ptoceeeling would be, to see the

lure and extent of the evil that-was wished to
be removed, and also the nature and extent of the
remedy. The measure involved one of the great-
est constitutional qnesti-diis--that could possibly be
agitated. The Noble Lord 'admitted that the
.House ought to protect Protestantism ; and he
would therefore ask, whether it wasnot, essential-
inquirewhettler or not we should- have a Pro-
testant-Parliament The opinion -ht: had long
since forated on this subject had undergone. ito
alteration ; and he would ask, -whether, in a Go=
vernment where the Crown acts upon the tespon-
sibility of Ministers, it was possible. for the Cro.wee
to maintain that Uoyerionentlture without the
Whole of the, establishments Lein" continued as
they now existed % Res,pectingthe introduction of
securities, all he shoujd ',say was, that upon the
best view he had taken of the subject, he could
never believe that a6r Committee could execute
their purpose. 'From ate very nature of the else,
and the state of the Catholic Church, there never
could Lee such securities adopted as would be satis-
factory to either party. It was not the question,
whether the House should new-model the Catholic
opinion, but' whether the boon demauded by the
Catholics could be acceded to ; alt.l he was firmly
coovineed, that make it its grateful as possible, it
would be rejected, and fail in its object.. On the
whole, therefore, he could see no advante what-
ever in.going into the Cotninttee which,trie Noble
Lord had 'pi °posed
Lord i\IEL-y E said- he should give his vote
against going into the Committee: He was one
of those who on a former day had voted for a
Committee on•the Petition, beeause,he thought
something satisfactory might result from it ; but
'he had been disappointed. Yet he was not with-
out sotne•sanguine hope that the time would come
when both Hottse of- Parliament as well as the
'Catholics might meetio opinion ; but the present
was not the time for inquiry.
The Duke of SUSSEX said he would vote for the
Committee.

Lord MULGRAVE would also vote for the q►►estion.
The Earl of Hanitowßv thought it impossible
for things to reinain on the present footing, and
if l►e could foresee any benefiCial consequences
from being into Committee, he should certainly
vote for it. The late-period of the Session, how-
ever, was a material objection with-him agai►ist it
and, if be were a Catholic, he-would rather that
the question should be taken up at any other pe-
riod than the present.
Lord BORINGDON said a few words expressive
of• Lis belief that the question might be- brought
to decision in the next Session.. •

The Earl of DONOUGHMORE then proposed,
with a View to meet the wishes of the House'to
alter his motion, and instead of the wtirds " im-
mediately proceed," tlc.!. to substitute, " in the
next Session of Parliament."

The Earl of WESTMORLAND declined pledging
himself to any opinion for the future-by the vote
for the question. •

—Lord REDESDALE felt that circumstances might
alter-extremely between the present time and that
now proposed for taking the subject into consi-
deration. He conhl not think that any thing sk,
tisfactory could be offered On this subject ; and
whenever it might be brought forward, the House
ought to consider the interest of the Protestant
as well as the Catholic people.
The Earl 01-ABERDEEN said, the present was
not an auspicious moment for entering upon an
examination of this subject ; but a wore faro_
period might occur: Ile• was willing to as-
sent to the motion; because it did not hind their
Lordships to the principle of concession, but
merely to the expedienty of, futtire enquiry. •
The motion as last proposed was then put, and
a division tonic place, 'When the numbers tvere
• Cantents '
Proxies
Not Contents.....
Proxies '••
Majority against the Motioa =-26
iliellouse afterwards. adjourned till To+thorrow.