The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-30 00:00:00

TER StIN, LONDON, FRIDAY* EVENING,APRIL so, 1847.

electoral divisions, and in general its effects were likely
to act unjustly and unequally upon the districts it was
intended to benefit. Under the 15th section, a very se-
rious inconvenience would arise to the clergy. Und-er this
Act it was to be expected that the rates would very
[Adelably increase, and as the landlords under the
present system were unable to get their rents or
pay their rates to the clergy in lull, how was
it to be expected that they could pay in full
when the demands upon them were increased ?
The promoters of this Bill also seemed to anticipate a
compact between the elected guardians and the ex-officio
guardians, and therefore they had taken care that their
numbers should not be otherwise than equal, in order,
probably, that they might fight it out upn fair terms.
Had due attention been paid to those reports, which
were accessible to Government and to Parliament, es-
pecially a report presented to that House in 1830, with
reference to the state of the poorer classes of Ireland ;
he thought that it would have enabled the Government
to bring forward a measure better calculated to improve
the social end moral condition of the peasantry of Ire-
land. Certainly the price of provisions from abroad had
been very much increased, and it appeared to him that
it was very baroarous to debar the poor Irish from the
only resource which they possessed. It England acted
by Ireland as she would be acted by, they would have a
sound poor law, and he should, therefore, conclude by
moving that the Bill be read a second time this day six

months.
On the amendment being put,
The Earl of St. GERMANS said, that the observa-
tions of his Noble Friend, who had just sat down, ap-
peared to him to have been addressed chiefly to
the first part of the Bill; and in saying that he was
cautious how he acce,led to the principle of giving out-
door relief, he could not but acknowledge that some such
provision was absolutely necessary. But there was a
clause which commanded his approval, and that was that
which provided for the destitute, though they were in
health, for if it were to be denied, how was the condition
of the beggar to be improved? It appeared, however,
that this relief was only to be administered by the boards
of guardians, under the direction of the Poor-law Com-
missioners, for a certain restricted period. To this he
was quite ready to assent, but he was by no means pre-
pared to give that assent without reference to the work-
house list. It was true that, by the report of the Commis-
sioners, it appeared that they were unfavourable to the
workhouses in Ireland; but by the passages which he
read to the House, it would seem that there was at least
an opportunity of granting the relief required by the
able-bodied but destitute poor. This relief would have
the effect of inducing the farmers and landowners of
Ireland to find a profitable employment for the poor.
Ever since 1835, this had been more and more
evident, and by, the evidence of Mr. Griffiths, it
was seen that there were now more than .five
millions
of acres which required reclamation, and on which the
whole of the poor might be profitably engaged, and thus
they might be lifted from their present state of degra-
dation to one of comparative comfort and plenty. But
this could only be effected by their passing through a
state of transition which must of necessity be acco:n-
rianied by the endurance of severe. distrs ss, and he re-
joiced that the Measure of the Noble Marquis provided
for an evil which, however great, was, nevertheless,
inevitable. He could assure their Lordships that the
only requisite to render this measure effective was a
provision for the employment of the people. That this
was the case, was evident from the report of Capt. Chads,
of the Excellent, who had been engaged to pass through
certain districts, by the Government, and his report
stated that, in all his progress as far as Lough
Swill'', he universally found that the people did
not crave for food, but for employment by which
they might obtain the means of subsistence.
The period of 1839 was one of great excitement and
distress. The former had at any rate passed away,
.but
the principle still remained for repressing the evils which
were then complained of. The whole expense of the
poor-law in Ireland, during the year 1846, was 246,0001.;
in 1845 it was 298.000/., and the whole of the money
collected was 426,116/. Now, the real amount of the
property which was assessed in Ireland was 16,000,000/.
but it was generally taken at about twenty per cent.
less, and was therefore really estimated at 13,200,0001.,
and taking it at this amount, the rate would be about
sevenpenee halfpenny in the pound, while, in effect, the
real amount collected, was only sixpence farthing. If
they turned to the returns of 1839, and there had been
none made since, they would find that the sum obtained
by voluntary contributions, and from the counties, for
the infirmaries, was 25,557/. That for dispensaries,
was, by voluntry contributions, 34,000/., with about
34,000/. obtained from the counties ; there was
then, a further sum from both these sources,
of 129,000/.; all these, and other contributions together,
made up 127,0001. Now, taking all these sums together
they would find that the whole of the rating of the land
was not more than tenpence halfpenny. Between that
sum and unlimited extravagance there was a very wide,
and as he considered it sufficient, margin. There was
evidently no disposition whatever to extravagance in
Ireland, and there was, therefore, no necessity whatever
for the interference of the board of guardians, and quite
sure was he that there was no necessity whatever for
doing away with the workhouse test, but that it would
be far better to leave the party of out-door relief to
them without the proposed restriction.
i It was com-
plained that the workhouses were quite insufficient for
the purpose. There are now workhouses in Ireland
with accommodation for 112,060 or 115.000 persons, and
in extraordinary times this might be insufficient, but
it should be recollected that in the report o
Mr. Nichol it was expressly recommended that they
should be both enlarged and improved.—(llear, hear.)
He had already said that he believed the workhouse test
was necessary to the working of the Poor-law, and he
was willing to believe that the Poor law commissioners
would do away with it. He must regret the practice of
the Noble L- rd near him, of remarking upon speeches
made in another place in the absence of those who made'
them, and when there was no opportunity of reply. Ile
said this in the very best spirit and with no wish
to 'fiend, The provisions of the Bill which ad-
mitted ex officio guardians to the board seemed
objectionable, and the more so that the Bill
was for Ireland ; because there the unions were
sometimes very large, end the justices very numerous;
indeed so numerous as to out-number the regularly
elected guardians. But rather than stand out against
the whole Bill he would consent to such a compromise
as would authorise the election of a number of guardians
proportionate to the numbers of ex officio guardians.
There were some other amendments which he wished to
introduce into the Bill, and of which he might then give
notice. He thought the clause with regard to out-door
relief was bad, as leaving nothing to the discretion of
the guardians. It positively restricted them from giving
out-door relief at all, such was the effect of it, and he
would propose to leave it out. The Bill would then
leave the relief to the discretion of the guardians them-
selves. He would conclude with expressing his hope
that their Lordships would accede to this measure, as
connected with other measures for the good of the
people of Ireland, and the cultivation of the country.
But if they were to emasculate the Bill by amendments,
he hoped they would rather reject the Bill altogether on
the principle.
Lord MONT EAGLE was surprised at what had fallen
from the Noble Earl that night; but he was most of all
surprised that the Noble Earl should come to that
House—and against the speech of the Right Rev. Arch-
bishop of Dublin, and in favour of his own views—should
quote the report made by the Commission of which that
Right Rev. Prelate was at the head. No document more
severely denounced the principle of out-door relief. But
there was a document later and more recent than that.
Yet the Noble Earl had not alluded to that; he meant
the report from a Committee of their own House. He
begged to ask the Noble Earl whether that document did
did not bear the interpretation which he gave to it. lie
would wait for an answer.
The Earl of St. GERMANS said he was most un-
willing to take up the time of their Lordships, but he ad-
mitted the interpretation given to the document by the
Noble Lord—a document drawn up by that, Noble Lord
himself, in the presence of very few Peers, himself (Earl
of St. Germans) being the only. English Peer present.
Lord MONTEAGLE granted the document was
drawn up in presence of several of the Peers
now in the House ; and, to take the Noble Earl's
own terms, in the presence of the representative Peer
of England.—(Laughter.) That document expressed
the opinions and the decision of that Committee, the
Noble Earl himself having been a member of it. But
to-night the Noble Earl had pursued an entirely dif-
ferent course of argument. But, said the Noble Earl,
an emergency had come since that report had been
drawn up. The assumption was good for a merely tem-
porary measure, but tor a measure which was to be
incorporated into the laws of the country
the arguments of the Noble Earl entirely failed.
There was not one shadow of authorky for maintaining
that view which was taken by Noble Lords opposite.
They were placed in a peculiar position at present. They
had to deal with a Parliament of very short duration,
but were it otherwise, and that they were at the com-
mencement of the session, ho would be able to produce
tire authority of experience. He confessed it would have
relieved his mind from considerable anxiety if his Noble
Friend could have proved to the House and the public,
with proofs, that experience would demonstrate its effi-
cacy. A Noble Lord had made some admissions. He
said that the workhouse system was necessary to
the working out of this measure.—(hear, hear.)
But was there any such workhouse system
in Ireland as would be equal to do so. Noble Lords
were not aware of what the unions in Ireland were.
There were only 130 workhouses, or unions, in Ireland,
while there were upwards of 600 unions in England. The
very circumstance of the few workhouses in Ireland pre-
cluded the posssibility of the system working. They
were, therefore, handed over to deal with difficulties
which might, herhaps, be surmounted ; but then there
were other difficulties which were insurmountable. How
was this Bill to be carried into effect ? One single re-
lieving officer was all that was to be afforded to each
union. Now, ho would ask any Noble Lord, who was
acquainted, however slightly,, with Ireland, could lie
for a moment, suppose such an arrangement
could work efficiently. Besides the powers that
were vested in the guardians would render the working
of this measure impracticable. He was told that these
were all imaginary causes of terror. He would show
that such was not the case. If they were in tranquil
ey wLeyi thenmi
gb
might
times e
swhenum u the
hope -
tlatwbewlts
times—if
first
'introdthu d
re-
lief might be fairly administered. There were upwards
of 50,000 children in those workhouses whom you would
by removal deprive of the advantage of the workhouse
Noe
itL o rwdo
uwl
dh o
be n
at reocdh umepe idan
ehde
bßyi l 1
measures
schools, which were amongst the best in the country.
The
em
for the suppression of mendicity,they but could
'not root out of the hearts of the Irish people
the principle which led to rnendicity' which
was with them a moral and religious principle. He
was sorry that his Noble Friend opposite had not given
them a more satisfactory statement. Looking at another
• post which had been referred to, he regarded with

tghriesa t
e(ai n gratificationtryfer th
et he
re
ef
ffoerft s
rtehl
eant abde
tb eheen
must
te in
say
tty
lacrurie of they w o
tuhl
ed
'poor, and for the administration of that relief, than,
find_
thatif theyth erreefcwrreesd
ratootrheeehanarniatyls offe rlretil
considering its circumstances. in any city in Europe.
If this measure would have the effect of infusing the
condition of the country, developing its physical capa-
bilities, and stimulating its industrial resources, he
thought the money-charge incurred by it, would be a
very subordinate consideration ; but ho did not think
that there could be a greater fallacy than to suppose that
a better system of agriculture could he introduced by it,
or that increased employment would be one of its con-
sequences. What the Irish people wanted was money and
stimulants, but how, he would ask, were these to be sup-
plied by the present Bill? He maintained that it would
have the very contrary effect, and not only diminish the
means, but take away all motives to exertion from the
people of Ireland. He thought the clause which
distributed the supplies of rating over 2s. 6d.,
out of the union, was one which would do the
towns mere harm than good, as it would cause a
greater influx of the paupers into the towns.
There was no greater delusion than that which
attributed to this measure the cessation of Irish emigra-
tion into England. lie thought it unwise and illogical
to anticipate this effect. If it raised the rate of wages,
it might lessen the emigration into this country. but it it
lowered the rate of wages no such result would follow.
Now, that it would have the effect of lowering the rate
of wages, and consequently increase emigration, he
would appeal to the working of the English poor-law,
and ask them if the administration of out-door relief
had not the effect of lowering the rate of wages in this
country. He was supported in this view by the autho-
rity of Mr. Musgrave and others, who were of the
opinion that a compulsory system of outdoor relief in
Ireland would have the effect of increasing the importa-
tion of Irish paupers into this country. The objection
which he felt to the measure was not to the amount
which they proposed to levy upon the landlords, but to
the method in which they proposed to expend
the fund collected.—(Hear, hear.) At various
times the Government had promised to encourage
an agricultural education. If that had been
done when they introduced the national system of edu-
cation in Ireland, if they had instituted schools for agri-
culture, they would never have witnessed the dreadful
scenes which were now daily occuring in that country.
He would merely say, in conclusion, that the measure
was intended to be perpetual, and that its advocates
based their advocacy of it upon arguments which only
sprung from a temporary emergency.
The Earl ST. GERMANS said that the Noble Lord
had misinterpreted his arguments in a great many
particulars.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE supported the
Bill, and entered at some length into a refutation of the
arguments of the Earl of Clancarty and Lord Mont-
eagle, respecting the system of out-door relief. Ile
would ask if the people of Ireland were in that un-
happy state in which they were represented to be,
would it not be better to afford them some relief, than
allow them to remain in their present state? And,
after all, such a measure as that proposed was one
which was only a matter of justice to Ireland,
as it would stimulate industry, and develope the
industrial resources of the country.—(Hear, hear.)
His Noble Friend who had moved the amendment had
argued that the poor law guardians would be unable to
carry out the law as it was intended to be. He knew
that laws were not merely rolls of parchment, and that
some allowance must he made for the state of society in
Ireland. In certain classes of society a revolution had
been effected in their habits, and it only remained for
them to encourage the change which had begun. If the
farmers would not, or did not, see their own interests
clearly, they, above all men, would be ruined by the
operation of this law and the changed state of society it
would induce. If the gentry, also, did not lend their
countenances to the measure, and see that it was pro-
perly carried out, they also would go against their own
interests and be ruined. The working of the law de-
pended upon themselves ; and, if they would not see
that it was properly carried out, how were they to legis-
late for such a state of society ? He did not, however,
believe that such would be the case, and he thought that
the people would have a greater regard for their own
interest and welfare and that of the country, than to see
that this law was administered improperly and ineffi-
ciently. The magistracy and gentlemen generally were
alive to the actual necessity of taking active steps for
the proper administration of the law. They knew
well that if they did not, the paupers of
the country, would so far increase in numbers, that
they would eventually be too strong for them. He be-
lieved that eventually this measure would confer a great
and lasting benefit upon the people of Ireland.
The Archbishop of DUBLIN said, that reference had
been made to a speech of his upon a former occasion, in
which he said that he did not give high wages. By that
expression he did not iuten4 to convey that be gave
lower wages than the man could obtain anywhere else.
He gave his labourer such wages as should induce him
to work, and would not have a tendency to discourage
him from labour. He had acted upon the plan of giving
employment, although not actually in need of labourers,
in order to save the persons from becoming paupers, or
being in distress, until they could obtain employment
else Where. Such a course was pursued by tacit agree-
ment among the landed proprietors, and in fact it was
understood, that as far as they could, they should, in
time of distress, keep the labourers of their districts em-
ployed. No doubt they effected a saving in the end by
such a course, by hindering the men from becoming
paupers. That acted very well, but as soon as the fact
became evident to the people, the whole charm was
broken, and numbers thronged to the spot, and thus
threw upon the proprietors a burden more than they
could bear. While he was upon his legs, he would take
that opportunity of expressing his deep sympathy
for the embarrassing position in which her
Majesty's advisers were at present placed. The
circumstances under which they acted were difficult and
troublesome, hut he was glad to see, that not only in
this country but even in others, there was a disposition
to relieve the suffering people of Ireland as much as
possible. Ile hail received large quantities of corn-meal
from Philadelphia and Canada, for the use of the Irish.
He took that opportunity of stating these facts, and ac-
knowledging them in public. He entirely concurred in
the observations of the Noble Marquis, who opened the
debate, that it was a very perilous experiment to hold
out to the people of any country, more especially those
of Ireland, the prospect of a certain remedy, by law,
for all destitution. He would no longer detain their
Lordships by any further observations ; and, in conclu-
sion, he would uree upon the Legislature the gravest
consideration before passing such a measure as the pre-
sent one into a permanent law.
Lord STANLEY perfectly concurred in the argu-
ments which had just fallen from the Most Reverend
Prelate, who had just sat down, to a certain extent, but
he believed that this measure was fraught with the most
serious dangers. He was not surprised that the remarks
of the Noble Marquis, who brought forward this mea-
sure, had been somewhat misunderstood. It was not to
be denied that this was an emergency of a most trying
character, an emergency which, though it was only in
appearance, of a temporary nature—temporary, he
trusted, it would be—but yet it was evidently fraught
with consequences which must last, to say the least of
it, through a series of years ; and he only regretted
that their feelings of commisseration had been excited,
perhaps, in too great a degree. There had been a
great breaking up of old feelings, old associations, old
practices, and old principles ; and it was, therefore,
above all necessary that they should not suffer their
feelings to be too much excited, but that they
should come to it with a sober judgment,
and a cool discretion. He was perfectly aware, that at
the present moment the Government had facilities for.
legislating which had never been enjoyed before; but, as
the most Reverend Prelate had justly stated, they must
take care that they took no step which they might be
obliged to retrace. It appeared to him that the Noble
Lord on the cross benches (the Earl of St. Germans)
had taken a most inadequate view of the question, and
great as he conceived the difficulty to be, and great as
fhreo mt
rtuhset
epdu btlhi ia!
tf u
intd swdouurl idn gb toh i
os
nt el
ym pt
eomraproyrda
ri syt,r e
he
se, and
he trusted that it would be only temporary, he yet
would be the mischief from granting an unlimited relief
thought that the pecuniary portion was the least that
beset the subject, the course of which was so beset by
great perils. If that had been the only principle involved,
the question would have had n• greater opponent thim
himself. The Noble Earl had talked of ild. in the
pound, but he knew in one instance where '
there was a rate made for twelve ;months, of seven
shillings in the pound, and in another of a rate
of twenty shillings in the pound. It its present shape,
the Bill was calculated rather to impede the power of
giving out-door relief than to facilitate it. When his
Noble Friend had stated that the workhouses were quite
insufficient for the accommodation of those who required
relief, he did not recollect that there was already an Act
in existence which provided a power for increasing the
number and enlarging the accommodation in the work-
houses. W hen he talked of there being a space of eight
hundred square miles on which this experiment was to
be tried, and when he talked of the extent of the unions,
and he himself was ready to acknowledge that au union
that was so extensive that some portions of it were forty-
eight miles from the workhouse, but in noticing this he
was bound to observe that if this measure were to be
carried oat, they must provide a sufficient accommo-
dation for the poor, the provisions of this Act
gave the opportunity of giving a limited relief for
a period of two months. But this practically implied
that the workhouse test was to be applied. And if it
were to be applied, they must take adequate means of
accommodation, and the whole of the property of Ire-
land ought to be rated for the relief of the poor—not
only the property of the landlord, but of the tenant also;
and he would never be a party to unduly overweighing the
landlords of Ireland. Ile was not prepared to deny that
property had its duties ; but if it had its duties it had
also its rights, and if the rights were not allowed, they
they could not expect that it should fulfil its duties ;
and in order to obtain the one they must allow the
other. It was perfectly evident that if this measure were
to be effected—and he sincerely trusted that the Go
vernment would reconsider i•-s opinions—they must en-
deavour to reduce the size and increase the number of
its unions. The unions in the country were as much too
large as those of the districts were too small. At the
present time the landlords absolutely paid two-thirds
of the rates, and left the tenant to pay the other. In
fact it had been represented that the landlords of Ireland
possessed unlimited power over their tenants, but the
truth was that the tenants possessed a far greater power
over the landlords than the landlords did over the
tenants. If this measure were to be rendered effectual,
the taxation must be rendered commensurate with the
property of the country.—(Cheers.) The Noble Marquis
had conceived that it was necessary to bring the power
of the Poor-law Commissioners to bear on the collection
of the rates, but he (Lord Stanley) did not conceive that
the guardians had ever been guilty of imprudence in the
fulfilment of their duties. He asked how they could
leave th© rates of the country to a body of farmers,

whose holdings, 20 or 30 of them, might be included in a
gordlevEynogiglishtwf•oar:
upon the landlord ? It was said by the Noble
m thirds•—auchora btaihryeeo-ffomuretnh,swiotfh tthhee
power
of levying two thirds or three-fourths of the rates
Marquis, in his opening statement, that the
number of' small holdings must ho diminished. One
remark fell from him in regard to another means of
remedy, that the plough must be substituted fur, the
spade ; but he did not concur with his Noble 1 riend
near him in thinking that the effect of that improve-
ment would be to diminish the demand for labour. The
effect of introducing science into agriculture would be to
increase the necessity of increased labour and employ-
ment. But there was a demand directly made upon the
landlords, with a view to remedy the evils of Ireland.
It had been said that they must increase the size of their
farms, the number of their servants, and the amount of
their wages. That looked very well in theory, but how
did it succeed in the hands of the Government when
they attempted their improvements upon the made'
farm.—(Laughter.)
-Why, for fourteen years her Ma-
jesty's Ministers had used their utmost power, and had
tailed to remove one tenant. In fact, they were all be-
come tenants at will, not paying one penny of rent ;
and the most ludicrous part of the whole was that sshen
some, who had resigned their lands, were appoints d
as care takers ; they became care-takers in a
peculiar sense of the word, and refused to leave the land
or pay one farthing of remuneration. Such was the re-
sult. What then had the Government been able to do
for their property? He admitted that the number of
small holdings ought to be diminished. Bat how T.'S
that to be done? They must diminish the motives which
induced them to cling to these holdings. But here the
arguments of the Noble Marquis had failed; for while
he hoped that so and so would be the concomitants of the
Bill, he forgot to introduce to the attention of their
Lordships, those means by which the effects he antici-
ticipated were to be produced. There was once
a clause in that Bill which permitted the pro-
vision of relief for a man in the occupation of
land. That fortunately was struck out, and that would
have the effect of reducing the number of small hold-
ings. But yet a man with eight or nine acres of land
could manage to subsist himself unless he had what they
called a heavy family. Yet there could be no hope that
he could employ the labourer, who was necessarily
thrown upon the world. A strange notion, however,
had been begotten in this country, that it was the duty
of the proprietor to give increased employment in the im-
provement of his estates. Those who said so did
n,t understand that those estates were divided out
into farms of ten or twelve acres each, and that
if he should attempt to lay out his estatea.anew, to
straighten the divisions, he would be resisted, aye, even
to the death, if one man believed he would lose by that
only half a cow's grass. Such a position of the landlords
evinced the impression and the expectation to be most
Utopian and monstrous. These were the two points
which he wished to impress upon their Lordships. They
must give the owners of property greater means of
managing and improving that property which was their
interest
own—they must make it the of the occupier to
keep down the poor-rates, by placing him in a similar
position with the landlord in reference to the payment
of those rates. The Noble Earl (St. Germans) gave
notice of some amendments which he intended
moving in Committee. He (Lord Stanley) concurred
in those amendments, and would support them;
but he would assure the Government that their Lord-
ships
would not go into Committee on this Bill with any
disposition but to relieve a most difficult and a most in-
tricate situation. He hoped most earnestly that all the
benefits which the friends of the measure might antici-
pate would result from it, and that it would prove ulti-
mately a great permanent good in Ireland.
Earl DESART expressed his satisfaction at the man-
ner in which her Majesty's Government had introduced
the Bill, and felt extremely grateful to the people of
England,who had come forward to relieve the destitution
of the people of Ireland.
Lord BROUGHAM did not think they were in a con-
ditiou at present to legislate safely upon the question.
A temporary measure would be safer than a permanent
measure. He thought it would be safer to limit the
measure to one year. He thought it might be necessary
to hare an enactment at the expiration of that period' •
but he defied their Lordships to repeal the law when
once they had passed it. It would be found that two-thirds
of the burden would be thrown on the landlords instead of
one half. He thought that, great as the responsibility
would be of doing nothing, all that responsibility would
be a mere jest compared with the risk which the public
tranquillity would have to encounter, if they sent over a
Bill which threw the whole burden on the occupier.
That was his only objection, and throughout the whole
course of the debates, the arguments he had heard
convinced him that this Bill would be found to be im-
practicable.
The Bill was then read a second time without a division.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, that he pro-
posed that. this Bill should be committed on next Tuesday.
Lord MONTEAGLE hoped that when they went
into Committee on the Bill, that there would be some
statement as to the exact mode in which it was to be
administered.
After a few words from the Earl of FITZWILLIAM
The Bill was ordered to be committed on Tuesday
next.
The Landed Property Bill was read a second, time,
and was crdered to be committed oa Thursday next.
Their Lordships then adjourned, at Half-past Twelve
o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS. April 29.
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS.

(Continued from our Third Edition of last night.)
AIr.WILLIAMS seconded the resolutions. He though
the question raised one of great national impodance. The
Honourable Gentleman had adduced so many
facts, that he could not see how the Govern-
ment could oppose them. Ile wondered, after the
high authorities that had in former years declared
against the present mode, that it should have been per-
sisted in to the present day. His Hon. Friend had
proved that last year more than seven millions had been
intercepted in its progress to the Exchequer, and this
evil had been increasing year by year for a long time.
In 1841, when the Right lion. Baronet the Member
for Tamworth came into office, he complained of the
state of the finances of the country ; and on that occa-
sion he( Mr. Williams) called the attention of the House to
the labours of a Committee that formerly sat on the ques-
tion. He also called their attention to the fact, that about
fifty millions of taxes in 1806 were collected for
9,790,000/., while in 1845 the collection of 56,460,000!.
cost nearly five millions.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.)
From this it appeared, that while the collection in the
year 1806 was but 41 per cent., in the year
1845 it had risen to si per cent. In the year
1843, though a great reduction had taken place in the
Customs duties, there had in 1843 and 1844 been 114
new places created. In the Post-office also in the last four
years, there had been no less than 4,063 places created.
In 1806, during the administration of Mr. Pitt, the cost
of the collection of the revenue, which was under the
strictest supervision, did not exceed from two-and-a-half
to three per cent, at the most. Reference had been
made to various departments, and with respect to one of
the departments mentioned it was set down as 360,000!.,
while the whole amount brought into the Treasury
was 120,000/. Sir Henry Parnell, afterwards Lord
Congleton, recommended that the public accounts should
be kept on one plan, and the
ability displayed in
his re-
commendations were well worthy the attention of the
House. Ile hoped that the Government would give this
important matter their serious consideration. He was
sure they could not render the country more important
service than by giving
their assent to the motion of his
lion, and Learned Friend.
The motion was then read.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (who
was very indistinctly heard in the gallery) said he feared
the subject was not a very interesting one, and he
should, therefore, be as brief in his observations as the
importance of the subject would admit of. He wished at
the outset to bear testimony to the experience of the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman. He had the greatest re-
spect for the gentlemen whose names were appended to
the report to which the Han. and Learned Gentleman had
referred. But at the same time he could not help stating,
that it was found impossible to carry out the recommen-
dations it contained. Even Lord Congleton admitted
that the whole of the recommendations of the Board from
whence the.report emanated could not be carried out.
Yet great advances had been made during the last few
years in improving the mode of keeping the public ac-
counts; even the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had ad-
mitted that great improvements had been made in the
Treasury in this respect; and it was only last year, that
her Majesty's Government introduced a Bill
which he had the honour of passing through its ad-
vanced stages soon after he came into office, for the
consequence of the pressure
of other e n ts
business,they
particularly wished,
in
purpose of promoting a better mode of keeping accounts
in certain departments of the Government; but the Go-
vernment had not been able to carry out all the imp
the state of Ireland.
prov
Haying said thus much, he could not allow all the state-
ments of his lion. Friend to pass unnoticed. If any-
body would look at the returns to which the Hon. Gen-
tleman had referred, it would be seen that in respect
em
of certain departments it was utterly impossible to adopt
his plan. Then again, the appropriations in aid ; these
were sums voted by Parliament. It was necessary that
the sums thus voted for that purpose should continue to
' be accredited for as they were ; as it would thereby
increase the efforts of the officers of the different de-
partments to realise as much as they possibly could
by the sale of the old stores. The lion. and Learned
Member had complained that the House was not aware
of the salaries paid to the various clerks and officers in
the different departments of the Government. Ile (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) thought that it would not
tend much to facilitate the business of the House if votes
were to be taken singly for the amount of the salaries
paid to each individual
.collector, clerk,
surveyor, or
tidewaiter ; but every information might be obtained
upon
the subject by application at the offices of the
ents. The charges various departm of collection was
laid before the House every year. Another charge
brought forward by the Hon. and Learned Member was,
that there was an increase in the charges of collecting
the taxes under the heads ef Stamps and Excise,
during the last ten years. If the Hon. Member
would look to the amount collected in the
years
ts, which he referred, he would have
,
seen that in 1836 tne revenue under those heads
amounted to about 11,000,000/., while in the year 1846
it amounted to upwards of 17,000,000/. ; it was, there-
fore, clear, that increased charges of collecting would
attend the collection of an increased amount of revenue.
The lion. Member for Coventry had also alluded to an
increase in the Post-office
department ; but surely,
when it was considered what an enormous amount of in-
creased facilities were given to the public by that office,
it could not be a matter of complaint that the charges
under that head had also considerably increased. If the
public would have increased facilities, they must, at least,
be content to pay an increased charge for the same. If
the Hon. and Learned Member would point out any details
in w hich there was any ground of complaint, he would

he most happy to devote the best attention that lay in
his power to a consideration of the circumstances of such
cases.

Mr. TIUMvi. was surprised that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer should object to a general system of accounts
of so simple a nature that any child could understand
them, which could be carried out by inserting in one the
accounts of the various boards or departments of, a
simple debtor or creditor account, to be submitted
annually to the Parliament. The Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer did not appear to have improved himself in the
least in spite of all the experience which he had had in
the business of the House. He most cordially supported
the motion of his lion, and Learned Friend.
Sir G. CLERK thought the resolution of the Hon.
and Learned Member turned upon two points—first,
that no sums whatever should be paid away by any
p•iblle board which was not first paid into the Exchequer
of the country; and then, if any returns or drawbacks
were required, such sums should be allowed out of the
general Exchequer of the country. Now, to such a re-
solution he begged entirely to object. The present mode
of keeping the accounts of the country, was that recom-
mended by a Select Committee of the House appointed
some years since, and proved as effectual and as
accurate as any mode of hook keeping adopted
in any of the commercial houses in this country.
In Scotland the expenses of the civil Government were,
by Act of Parliament, deducted from the sums collected,
the net sum, less these expenses of collection, being paid
into the Exchequer, and if any other plan were intro-
duced, great anomalies would be the result. Why, if
the plan of the lion. and Learne:l Gentleman were to be
generally adopted, a merchant at the clearance house
would require his bills to be psid in cash to his hankers,
and,any deduction would have to be returned by him in
cash, or by ch, qee, instead of deducted and arranged at
the time of the clearance. Enquiries had been instituted,
and it was found that no better plan than that adopted in
the Ordnance could be adopted. For instance, they sold
old stores, and purchased new articles which might be
required, out of the funds which they realised. And
then it was in the power of every Member
of the House to move for returns, showing the
receipts and expenditure of each department, so that
misappropriation could not take place under such vigi-
lant supervision. The Hon. Gentleman had stated that
7,000,000 was intercepted in its way to the Treasury ;
but if he would look into the public accounts in detail
he would find that vouchers were taken for all the sums
paid, and that the whole amount was duly accounted
for. Then he could not see what good could result from
furnishing in detail the expenditure of every mall
custom-house department in the kingdom, or of every
small post office, It was. upon these grounds that he
could not accede to the poposal of the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman. The Hon. Gentleman the Member
for Dorchester introduced a Bill for the purpose of sim-
plying the accounts of the Exchequer, and since that
time great -improvements had been made in the mode of
keeping the public accounts. The system adopted in
France, he believed, had not been so beneficial as the
lion. and Learned Gentleman had stated. He trusted
that the Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer would not hold out to the Honourable Gentle-
man any hope that he would adopt his recommen-
dations. Why, he could not carry out the first

part of it—that part was particularly objectionable.
If it were adopted, every small sum received at the
PoSt-office of Ireland, would have to be remitted to this
country, before any deductions could be made from it
for local expences. He saw no reason for altering the
mode of keeping the public accounts ; and, therefore,
he could not give his support to the motion.
Mr. F. T. BARING admitted the great importance of
simplifying the public accounts ; but since the recom-
mendation of the board, to which the Hon. Gentleman
had referred, great improvements had been introduced,
and no doubt the Government would avail itself of every
opportunity of introducing fresh improvements. It was
right, undoubtedly, that all sums for the different de •
partments of the Government should be voted by the
House ; but they must vote the sums in masses, and
not in detail, otherwise they would be wholly unable to
do so. Parliament should have the control of the whole
expenditure of the country—(Hear, hear)—but with re-
spect to appropriation, he might say that it was necessary
that each department should have the credit of its own
savings, instead of being carried to the gross accounts
of the nation—that mall or important local and inciden-
tal expenses should be deducted from the receipts, in-
stead of the gross receipts being paid into the Treasury,
and every small sum that might be required, voted by
the House. For instance, the departments which had
articles in their possession which could be sold, should
have the power in their hands of selling them at the time
when they thought they could make the best bargains,
and should have the power of devoting the receipts to
something for which they might stand in need, taking
care, however, as now, to keep succinct accounts of all •
their transactions. By a return, he found that in 1822,
5,688,0001. was expended without passing through the
Treasury; but he also found that it had been reduced
in 1846, to 4,630,0001.. showing that a considerable re-
duction had taken place.
Sir J. GRAHAM would only occupy the House for a
short time while he made the observations which
he intended. With respect to the public accounts, he
agreel entirely with the Hon. Member for Bolton, that
the system of double entry should be employed in all
cases in the public service. While in office, on it former
occasion, he had been the means of introducing it into
many public public departments, and the present Go-
vernment had introduced it into the army and the Ord-
nance cleparttnents. The Hon. Member, however, ob-
•jected that the same system was not introducrd into the
dome-office, but it should be borne in mind that that was
scarcely on the same footing as any of the other Govern-
ment departments which had been alluded to: Ile had
been a party to the report of 1831, and to the principle
of that report he still agreed, though like the Hon. Mem-
ber for Portsmouth, he had since seen reason to modify
his opinion ; in doing which, lie had acted under the
example of the late Earl Spencer, who had given the
question the greatest consideration. With respect to
the public accounts, all inquiry that could he made was
already gone into, and the most perfect system of booking
now prevailed. The real question, therefore, left for
consideration was the payment of the public money
without first going into the Exchequer. Now, he main-
tained, as a soureprinciple, that no money should be paid
from the revenue of the country unless it first went into
the Exchequer, and should go into the estimates, but he
saw that it would be practicably impossible to do
this. This was a subject to which the late Lord Spencer
had also given his attention ; and it was his decided
opinion that any other course than the present one
would not work. As it regarded the danger of improper
application, this was provided against by the fact that
every year the accounts had to be laid on the table,
when they would be open for any Member to call any of
the items into question.
Lord J. RUSSELL roso to speak,
: When an Hozs. MEMBER moved that the House be
" counted.

The gallery was then cleared, but there being 40
Members present, the House resumed.
Lord 3. RUSSELL rose merely to say that he was one
who, in 1831, signed the report, but since then he found
that Lord Althorp was right, and that he was in error.
1)i. BOWRING briefly replied, and said that after
the expression of opinion which he had obtained, he
would withdraw his motion.
THE STATE OF TIIE NAVY.
Mr. HUME then rose to move for an inquiry into the
state of the navy since 183'2, as regards the building,
alterations, and repairs of her Majesty's ships. He said
that about fifteen years ago, he had called the attention of
the House to the state of the navy, and he was sorry that
the evils he then complained of had not since been re-
moved. He stated then that the arrangements for the
building of the ships of the navy were of the most imper-
fect character. Since that time the greatest scientific
progress had been made in this country, especially in the
application of iron for naval purposes, yet he would, be-
fore he sat down, show the House that the navy had not
participated in these improvements. At that time the
Right Hon. Member for Dorchester (Sir J. Graham)
was:at the head of the Admiralty, and had, as he (Mr.
Hume) had then stated, most unadvisedly put an end to
the School of Naval Architecture which had then
existed twenty-one years. Before he showed what
the Right lion. Baronet destroyed, he wished to
show why the school had been established. The young
.men who had come forward—and they belonged many of
athem to the most respectable families in the country—
had inducements held out to them, that if they excelled
in their departments, they would be eligible for appoint-
ments. - lie would read to the House an ex-
tract or two from the report of a Commission of
1806. The Honourable Member read an extract,
showing that at that period the apprentices in the
dockyard did not receive the commonest elements of
education, although, in after life the safety of the British
navy was dependent upon them. The Commissioners
recommended that this state of things should be altered,
and the Government in 1811 established a school for
naval architecture. At that time the builders of their
ships were mere copyists from other countries. The Go-
vernment held out to the pupils hopes that those who
were attentive to their studies should be entitled to the
emoluments of the dockyard, as master-measurer, mecha-
nists, shipwrights, and inspectors, with salaries varying
from 1001. to 1000/. a-year. Mr. Peake was one of those
persons deprived of this pullic benefit. The Right Hon.
Baronet had said, that the institution had failed of pro-
ducing the good effects that were anticipated from it.
He thought the fault lay with the Government themselves.
They ought to have corrected the errors of the system,
instead of extinguishing it altogether. Since that pe-
riod, he would ask, if any ship (worthy of the name)
had been built? He believed not one. Certainly not
one of the ships, lately built, would compare with the
Thetis, or any other ship built by these pupils. Many
of the pupils had eminently distinguished themselves.
Where had they a treatise like that published by Mr.
Chatfield, or papers like those published under the
superintendence of Mr. Crueze. He would now give
them the number of ships built since 1832, and the his-
tory of their construction ; and he would prove that
they had been, in almost every instance, failures. lie
would prove that, in almost every instance, the objects .
required, namely, stronger and fighting qualities, had
not been obtained ; ho would prove also that their al-
terations had been interminable, and that scarcely one
of those ships answered the purpose for which they were
intended. He did not wish, by any observations of his,
to throw discredit upon Captain Symonds, but he blamed
the Admiralty, who could allow these proceedings to go
on. Captain Symonds, like every other man, avas ready
and willing to retain his power and his position, and
he (Mr. Hume) could not blame him fur so
acting. It was human nature. But where an im-
portant trust like this of the British navy, was concerned,
it did become a question whether he had exercised that
judgment wisely. He (Mr. Hume) had taken the trouble
to see what was the amount of money which had been
voted for wages during the fifteen years, and he must
acknowledge that it was a very large sum ; but if that
money had been applied properly, he should have
thought less of it. It amounted to twenty-two mil-

lions ; and he ventured to say that be would prove, if
this inquiry took place, that a very large pt.( p )rtion of
that sum had been wasted. Under the two votes of
wages and naval at ,res, he found that, since 1833,
8,000.0 101. had been granted for the former and
14,000,0004 for the latter. Deducting the vote of this
year, 19,000,000/. would be left as the amount of the
stores under the direction of Captain Symotd=. The
statement as to the ships laid down during the same pe-
riod showed the following results:—
Ships of the Line, on Sir W. Symonds's design, laid

down since 1832 ... ... ..
On designs by tho former surveyors, laid duwn in

.. 9

1812 to 1828 ... ... ...
On the French model of M. Sand ...

10
1

Total launched ..•
Frigates, on design by Mr. Fincham, laid down in

On Sir IV. Symonds's designs, laid down since 1831 15
On designs by the late surveyors, laid down in 1820

. to 1828 ...
On the French model of Pestel, laid down in 1828...
On design of School of Naval Architecture, laid

down in December, 1814 . .
On design by Admiral Hayes, laid down in 1836 ...
On design by Captain (now Admiral) Elliot, laid
down in 1642 ••• •.• ••• ••• •••

Total launched
Corvettes, on designs by Sir W. Symonds, laid
down since 1831
On designs by the late surveyor, Sir R. Seppings,
laid down in 1830 ...
On desist ns by Professor Inman, laid down in IS2'
On designs by Captain (now Admiral) Elliot, in
1836 . .

Total launched ... 7
Brigs, on designs by Sir W. S)monds, laid down
since 1831 ... ... 24
On designs by Captain Hendry, laid down

in 1842 ...
On designs by different master-shipwrights, 1843
On designs by School of Naval Architecture, 1843
On designs by private builders, laid down in 1831,
one—in 1843, one ...

... 2

Total
Brigantines, on designs by Sir W. Symonds, laid
down since 1835
On designs by Sir R. Seppings, laid down in 1829

• Total
Packets, on designs by Sir W. Symonds, laid down
since 1832, and launched ... ... 9
The following ships were building, or in progress :
Ships of the Line, on Sir NV. Symonds's models' 19
On French model of Sane ... ••• 1
By Mr. Lang ... ... ... 1
By School of Naval Architecture ... ... 1
By the late Admiral Hayes 1

... 23
.. 10

Total... ...
Frigates, on Sir W. Symonds's models
Mr. Finchana
Mr. White (private builder), Deptford ...
Mr. Blake (late master shipwright), Portsmouth ...
Mr. Lang, jun., Woolwich ...

Total...
Corvettes, on Sir W. Symonds's model
Brigs, on Sir W. Symonds's model ... ••• ••• •
11
Brigantines, on Sir W. Symonds's model ::•
The steam navy was not included. The charge was, that
failures in building ships had taken place to an enormous
extent. Scarcely one ship had been laid down by Sir W.
Symonds which had turned out other than a failure.
He might instance that great ship, the Vernon, on which
his character in a manner depended. Ile recollected
that in that house Captain Rous, in speaking of these
ships, referred to the Pique and the Vernon
as bad sea-boats, shipping so much water,
that there was danger on the main deck.—(Hear.)
With regard to the Vernon, he should be prepared to
prove, that in her first voyage she pitched so much as to
nearly destroy her whole bulwarks, besides shipping se-
veral seas. The vessel, in point of fact, was a copy of
an old French ship, which had years before been tried
and found unsuccessful. He should be prepared also to
prove that the vessels of the Vernon class, built by
Captain Symonds and his assistants, were copies of
former discarded models; and that CaptainlSymonds, and
the others connected with him, displaced men in the pub-
lic service who, in experience and ability, were immea-
surably their superiors. The East India Company's
vessels were built according to the old principles of
naval architecture, and they had efficiently performed the
duties they were built for; while all, or at least the ma-
jority of Captain Symonds's vessels had always to undergo
expensive alterations before they were at all fit for ser-
vice. In fact, a ship built by Sir W. Symonds always re-
quired to have her bow lengthened, her rudder en-
larged, and her masts altered, and yet the Admiralty
still allowed that gentleman's system to re-
main in operation, against the remonstrances of many
eminent persons connected with the navy. Many per-
sons had been found to praise the Vanguard, and no doubt
when she went out as a mere yacht she succeeded very
well, but when she was sent out upon active service she
pitched and tossed so much that she was completely
knocked up, and when taken into dock at Davenport it
was found that in two instances she bad split her cop-
pers,
while her oakum had so worked cut that she had
to be re-caulked. The consequence of this abominable
system prevailing in her Majesty's dockyards had in-
volved the country in enormous expences. From the re-
turns he held in his hand he found that the Queen had
cost 127,000/. and the Vanguard 111,0001. In like man-
ner the public money had been Squaniered on the Prince
Albert and the Gascoigne, vessels of a lower class than
those he had already mentioned, and he put it to the
Itaise, whether it was right that this state of things
should continue. NVas it creditable to the country ? lie
apprehended not, for he would undertake to prove
that in no community in the world was there
so much money waited in buililipg, or, rather,
in altering misbuilt ships as in England. There
was the Star again. She, to,), was built at Wool.
with, upon Sir W. Symonds' system, but in her first
voyage to sea her decks were washed away, many of the
gallant men who manned her were lost, and she had to
be taken into dock again, and almost entirely rebuilt.
Now was it right that a naval surveyor, who was so
much incapacitated for his'; office as Sir Win. Symonds,
should be permitted longer to squander the public money
in 'his way. He thought ho had already stated sufficient
to induce the House to grant this enquiry; but, if the
House wished, he could still go on enumerating instances
where the public money had been thrown away with impu-
nity by the naval architecture patronised by the Admiralty.
He thought that the public ought to know the whole
particulars connected with the state of things. Several
vessels had also been condemned and sold out. There
was the Scarborough, 74 guns, built by Sir W. Symonds;
it had only been out it few months when it was sold for
6,0001., though it was worth 40,0001. There were also
the Thames, the Liffey, and the Redoubtable, the whole
of which were either sold or condemned without having
seen scarcely any service ; some of them, indeed, not
having been taken even off the stocks. There were
also other portions of the service to which he must call
the attention of the House. He thought it important to
know whether the Surveyer of the Admiralty properly
performed his duty, or whether the Board of Admiralty
saw that those duties were properly performed. It was
an instruction to the Surveyor of the Admiralty to re-
port once a year upon the condition of all her Majesty's
ships in the navy, but for a number of years past no
such return had been made by Sir W. Symonds.
Mr. WARD—returns have been made.
Mr. HUME—WeII, let him have the inquiry as asked
for, and he would soon see whether such report had, or
had not been made. Now, orders were given not to pro•
ceed with the building of the Aboukir and Exmouth, in
consequence of their having been defective. Those ves-
sels were laid down on the lines of the Albion, which
rolled so much that it was quite a wonder how any men
or guns could keep on the deck of the vessel. That ves-
sel, when tried,in the experimental squadron, rolled at an
angle of 45 deg. When the result of the sailing qualities
of this vessel was known, orders were given not to build
these vessels upon the same lines, and yet upon several
occasions the works had continued with varied progress.
lle came now to the steamers. lie found that when
Sir W. Symonds started he had, by Admiralty order,
the drawing of the following steam-vessels as a guide
for his own construction, viz.:—The Comet, Lightning,
Meteor, Pluto, Flanker, Firebrand, Firefly, Spitfire, and
Medea, from which his first production (assisted by Mr.
Edye) was the Galnare, increased in breadth from the
Cornet. %His first vessel, the Gulnare, failed—too deep
and very slow; her power was then increased to obtain
speed, many alterations made in her fittings, &c., and to
cover these mistakes her name changed to Gleaner; but
still, being too deep was sent to Chatham, cut into two
parts, and lengthened; still a failure, very slow and very
deep—could not carry her coals and stores. This was
a bad beginning, and a bad specimen of steam construc-
tion. The Blazer and Tartarus were the next two
built—both failed. Their engines and boilers were
taken out and new ones made of increased power—these
vessels were laid up ten months, during the time the
alterations were going on. Hermes, the next built,
rolled and pitched to such a degree that she was also
sent to Chatham in May, 1840, to be cut in two parts
and lengthened two feet at the keel and twenty feet on
deck. She had siace had an upright stem and addi-
tional power, with other alterations. Volcano, a sister
vessel, had the same propensities of rolling, &c. She
plunged her bowsprit into the sea, and lost
her jibboom and jib in the ocean, as she could not
bring them up again. Gorgon, built at Pem-
broke— intended to carry guns, but found to
be so deep in the water the ports were obliged to be
caulked in, copper on the bottom raised, and her power
increased. The Cyclops, a sister vessel, in consequence
of the Gorgon failing, was lengthened to remedy the
evil, but could not carry the guns intended, being still
too deep in the water. After these and other repeated
errors, he has increased the length of his steam-vessels
and altered their forms. The Devastation, and that
class of steamers, have been brought up to the same
proportion of length as the Medea, and their figure
made to assimilate more to that vessel. u
to the royal yacht. He was one of those wheo,nwohweenauSlier
Robert Peel made the proposal for building this yacht,
was of opinion that there were so many yachts thatthere
was no occasion for any more ; but they were assured by
the Government that it would
additional expense, and that i b
be made at very little
be converted into a war
steamernifne caseesof war, it
whatmight
was the result ? This was the last 'ethastarywa.s built after
all their experience. A very dull man might become
a shipwright in fifteen years ; but still there was dis-
played about this vessel a want of scientific knowledge
—a want of knowing what the effect of displace-
ment, fore and aft, in relation to the ship's figure was,
that had been the cause of all the Surveyor's failures.
This royal yacht was so imperfectly constructed
that she was obliged to carry 120 tons of ballast

towards her stern ; and when she was launched she
sank her head into the water with her stern a 'aka
a duck diving.—(A laugh.) She would not answer
her helm, end had been altered again and again, but
he wanted an account of those alterations. He be-
lieved that she had cost 100,0001. That was the last
act of Sir W. Symonds. Whether the Admralty had
examined the line, or had taken any opinion upon it, he
could not tell ; but there seemed to be a kind of ,com-
pact between the Admiralty and the surveyor. Su .ch a
state of things was a discredit to any country. Bu t he
had not yet done. The Lizard, 150 horse power, a
packet, iron steamer, built by Sir William Symo nds,
commissioned at Woolwich in 1542 by Lieutenant I lac-
donald, was nearly sinking in the basin from the we ight
of her stores ; and all her stores, officers, crew, guns, tk,c ,
were turned over to the Spitfire of the same size, fati.t
constructed by Mr. 0. W. Lang, jun.,
and now in the
Mediterranean. The Spitfire took them all with heavier
of coals, besides guns and double the quantity many other
additions. The Spitfire's engines are old and very
heavy, compared with the newer make in the Lizard.
There were many similar instances of failure, also Ge
falsification in that return. The Lizard required to be
altered, and lighter guns and fewer stores than were
originally intended for her. But he would now turn to
the official report of Captain LuQhin;.;ton of the Retri-
bution, of her putting hack into Plymouth after the gale
(on the 6th or 7th of June, 1846), when she washed her
shot out of the racks about the nee k; and his and Cap-
tain. Ramsay's reports of his last trial with the Terrible
about the 'id or 3d of July, 18460 would show the com-
plete defeat of the Retribution. Ile believed that the
Terrible had turned out a very good ship ; and that
whether under sail or in any kind of duty she had con-
ducted herself well. Both Captain Ramsay and Sir W.
Parker had reported well of her. Ile had another list
of vessels that had been taken down and destroyed, but
he was really ashamed to trouble the House with it.
He thought ho had stated enough to show
that in order to stop the abuse of spending
money and materials the whole system should
be placed under some proper control. He was told
there was a committee of reference, but that committee
was not in his opinion properly qualified; they had not
had a proper education; whilst it should be remembered
that a former Admiralty had shown their wisdom and
authority by appointing a committee of master ship-
wrights, and the said committee by their report entirely
condemned the line of Sir W. Symonds' ships. The next
point he came to was that of expense. By a return
which was moved for by the Hon. and Gallant Officer,
the Member for Nlarylebone, he found that the Queen
cost 127,0001., and the Trafalgar 114,0001., but he be-
lieved the valuation. was made in the time of war, whets
the whole charge was at war prices. The next ship, the
Albion, which was to be the example and pattern of all
others, up to the Ist of March, 1846, had cost 104,0484
The Rodney cost 145,000/ It was originally a better ship
than the Albion, but 17,000/. had been expended upon her
in alterations, and she had been spoiled. The Vanguard
cost 111,000/.; the Penelope 101,0004 Those were large
sums of money, but it was not so much the money as
the system he complained of. He really thought it
was high time that " Symonds the Destroyer
should be prevented from wasting the public money in
this manner, and a Committee of Inquiry ought to be
instituted. It might be said that a committee of ship-
wrights was now sitting as a committee of reference,
but he contended that they were not competent to the
task which he thought ought to be performed. He did
think the state of things which he had described was a
reproach, after the report made on the state of the navy
so far back as 1806. After the example set them by
France, and after the extension of education, he did
think that they should bare had proper ships con-
structed, and fully equal to those of any other country ;
but nothing of the kind had occurred, and the details
which be had laid before the House showed that they
had entrusted the navy to quacks—(Cheers)— to persons
without the requisite knowledge or education for the
proper performance of the tasks they were entrusted
with. Looking at the state of the navy during the last
fifteen years, and the immense interests involved, he did
think that the time had come when an inquiry should
take place, in order that the exact condition of the navy
might be shown, and suggestions made for placing it on
a different footing, one worthy of this country, in which
young men might acquire the requisite knowledge for
the important offices they were destined to fill ; but the
existing schools did not afford sufficient information to
all. They had had discussion after discussion with
respect to the capabilities of particular ships, and it was
but due to the public to make an inquiry, in order that
they might be informed whether the statements which
had been made public from time to time were true or un-
true. On a question of education, and on a question of
expense, he considered it to be their duty to make an
inquiry. If it were granted, he should be prepared to
show that both time and materials had been wasted, and
that, considering everything, it was a wonder they stood
as well as they did.

Lord ING-ESTRE was glad that the subject had been
brought forward as a distinct motion, and not incident-
ally on the supply nights, when but a few professional
gentlemen were present. The construction of the mari-
time deficiences of this country was a subject deserving of
the most serious consideration of every Member
of that House, for it was not fair, not
consistent with the high character of this
country, that our gallant seamen should be
called upon t 3 perform their duties in badly constructed
ships.—([fear.) Ile wished to return his sincere grati-
tude to the Hon. Gentleman who had brought forward
the subject in its present shupe. He had particularly to
complain of the equipment of the navy, and he considered
that the person employed as the navy surveyor should
be ascertained to be a person fit for the duties he would
have to discharge, before he vi as appointed; but one per-
son was not capable of discharging the duties which came
within the province of that office.—(hear.) No doubt
great and useless expenses hail been incurred; as he found
that, in 1835, the cost of sailing ships was 1,336,000 L,
and that almost a similar sum had been exTe .ded in the
construction of steamers during the same year. Conti-
nual fluctuations in the mode of construeing vessels oc-
curred, showing that the science which required such
continual change, must be exceedingly def. ctive. An
example of faulty construction was to be found in the
Vernon, to which their attention had been frequently
derected, he had been favoured with a letter respecting
the Albion, from an officer, whom lie would have been
glad to have sett in more active service, viz. Capt. Ryder
Burton. lie stated that that ship was eriginally intended to
carry 68-pounders, but as she sank so much on being
launched, a lighter calibre of 32-pounders bad to ber
substituted, as the stores and other heavy materials
were below the centre of gravity, and that if she had
remained as originally intend, d she would have rolled
over, and that even in her present condition she would
be exposed to great danger during a squall in the Bay of
Biscay. Yet she was intended as a model for other
ships.—(Hear, hear.) This letter (continued the Noble
Lord) stated, in a few words, the whole question ; fur
the great complaint against the surveyor was, that all
the ships built by him had this fault. They all knew
the great injustice uone to our officers and men during
the late American war, owing to their being sent out in
small and insignificant ships—(clear)—but he hoped
this would never occur again, and that proper ships fitted
for service would he invariably used.—(hear, hear.)
The Noble Lord then read a list of several trials that
had been made at various times with the model ships,
in which he alleged the experiments had been attended
with the most unsatisfactory results. He aid not wish to
fatigue the House after the details which had been given
by the Hon. Member for Montrose, still he must
say that there was too much disposition amongst those
in power to put down any attempt made to interfere
with their mode of transacting business. Every one
who endeavoured to make improvements in the navy,
especially in the building of ships, had been met with
the most pettifogging obstruction, and every obstacle
put in their way. lie denied that it was true, es as-
serted, that every improvement recently made, in the
contruction of ships, had been plagiarised from Sir W.
Symons. Any one, who would make an impartial in-
quiry into the matter, would find that this was not the
fact. Neither the country nor the House would remain
satisfied with the resent state of naval architecture in
this country, and they would have ere long to establish
a school fur this purpose. his astonishment was, that
it should have ever been abolished, seeing how impor-
tant it was to the interests of the country. The ease
of the Albion alone, which hail been cited, was suffi-
cient to warrant a committee of inquiry, without any
other reasons being adduced. This ship had been ad-
mitted to be a complete failure. If not in these precise
terms, at least in words to the same effect, this was
admitted. Tho Noble Lord next complained of the
returns which had been laid on the table of
the Admiralty, and considered that they did
not give a fair representation of the state of the navy.
He would not detain the I louse longer, and would con-
clude by expressing a hope that an inquiry would be
made into the whole subject, and that a echo.] of some
kind would be established for the teaching of naval
architecture, that thereby the vessels of this countryo_th.
would be able to compete in future with any f
other nations of the earth.
Bill
which
f i ni
nt edni
ct itomne
nt
to.
he
eurhsuade
preferred
sl.l ire. n". rlA'riiieDnd s at
ihdroiutgwhasthen ot
against the Ministriethl'vlicnhg hadht brdeenfrionmoffitheee
for the last fifteen years; but
Noble Lord who had sat down that they stood in the
way of the efficiency of the navy of England, he
con-
fessed that he could not see how that efficiency could be
promoted by the inquiry moved for by the Hon. Member.
Errors such as the Hon. Member described might have
taken place, but had he not now a security against their
recurrence ? Some of the most eminent members of the
late School of Naval Architecture—;11r. Reed, Mr. In-
man, Mr. Bennett, and Mr. Fincham—were now mem-
bers of the committee of instruction, to whom, and to
the Surveyor of the Navy, all plans for the building of
new ships were referred by the Admitalty. Could any
better system be devised, combining a responsibility to
that House, than that one which the Government had
determined to adopt ? The Gallant Commode re (Sir C.
Napier) had suggested the appointment of some inter-
\ mediate person or persons, but a hat would that he but
the Surveyor of the Navy in another shape ?—(Hear.)
The best responsibility was obtained by having in that
Rouse those who were nt the head of affairs, and who
might be accused, either justly or unjustly, as the case
might be, for whatever had been done by their super-
intendence or by their direction. His Henour-
able Friend could have no better security than the
system now established, and which the Noble Lord
naw at the head of the Admiralty intended to adhere
to most strictly in all his future proceedings. He
entirely doubted the possibility of any Board of Ad-
miralty in this country devising a Ferfect model for the
building of all future ships. It was desirable, no doubt,
to have as much science as possible in shipbuilding; but
in the construction of ships of war there were so many
different requirements to be sought which were not con-
:tried to one point, but combining many and opposite
qualifications, that the perfect model which they wanted
was still to be sought. The Thetis had been mentioned,
but the gentlemen who had constructed her had jai-