The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-03 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMEI4T.

HOUSE OF LORDS, March 2.
POOR-LAW (IRELAND).
The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from the
rate-payers of Enniscorthy complaining of the present Poar-
law in Ireland.
RAILWAYS IN IRELAND.
Earl FITZ WILLIAIII presented a petition from the
grand jurors of Wicklow, in favour of railways in Ire-
land. He was not going to enter into a long die-
cussion, which had been decided some days ago in another
place ; but he did ?lot think he would be doing his duty to-
wards England, if he did not offer a few observations to their
Lordships. He had often drawn the attention of their Lord-
ships to the resources d Ireland. The effect of the resent
calamity in Ireland would not be confined to the mere loss of
the article of food, but would operate most disastrously in
other ways; and it would, therefore, be necessary to provide
means of employment. Twenty-four or twenty-five millions,
more than half the rental of the country, had been destroyed.
The rental of this country was 62,000,0004, and if 90,00,000'.
had been destroyed, would not English gentlemen consider it
a case calling for relief of the most comprehensive character.
He did not think that the proposition which had been intro-
duced into the other House for granting money for the con-
struction of railways was an ill-advised measure, as he consi-
dered, if it had been passed, that it would have gone far to
remove the distress. He did not think that it would have
been a substitute for the works that had been going on for the
last six months ; but still a measure of the kind to which he
had referred, would have given employment to vast numbers
of the people. Certainly the measure did not deserve the
ridicule which had been cast upon it. What was wanted was
to make the land of Ireland as productive as possible, and this
would have been a step in the right direction. On the Con-
tinent, they would find that all great public works were car-
ried out by the Governments of the various countries People
in this country were too apt to judge Ireland by England, and
to consider that great public works could be carried out in the
same way as here; but if they waited until private enterprise
carried out public works like railways, they must wait
for a considerable time. The state of Ireland prevented the
capitalist from embarking his money in Irish speculaiivnre

,ssaseesses;
--ssessoos s sesss reasesesa s.,,e,,.;v:izatosatteeswo as
He did not wish underealtie the Ines et ens ;11111'46 ar
half which had been made to the landed proprietors in Ir e!a_t)o-i;
but he did consider that there had been a very great di.poter_
to over-rate its effects. He heard that all the landlords t.
looking for a share of it, and he would remind the Hon!e
ohol.a!
if such were the case, and if it were divided, it woul.d,,eni,
amount to nineteenpence per statute acre. He did no.te"..blie
that there would be some lucky individuals who would
Iva be
to improve their eats:es by the loan, but they would "'a
individuals, and it should be their desire to improve the
s.e.nd
try generally. If a proprietor of twenty thousand acre
to
improve hi, estate,
with an income of 4,00iL a year, wanted Quid
he could not barrow less than a sum of 10,000/., year.
hieh
immediately subject him to a repayment of 6.50/.e:l
wore
He gave credit to Irish proprietors for a great d
them,
good sense than the English press were willing to gi_v_rd think
and he believed that any prudent Irish gentleman
twice before he would embark in a speculation which would
_et of
which
him to such a large immediate outlay, and the be3ets.,,
which would be only prospective, after a long series ofil;,,
and after repealed negotiations with lessees, aneenb7_ were
and ociupiera. He believed that the Irish proprietors..
the
more prudent than they got credit for. But what was 1; the
lush gentlemen themselves proposed. They pw ow
ob.
r°Psewitio;
wisest thing that had been suggested for the last six in,
they proposed the substitution of re-productive for nos prod
tive works.--( Hear, hear.) They called aloud for"thieot:ablfog
tion of railways ; and although a little si
might be introduced in the carrying out of the sic
tern, still the good would greatly PreiNl'he the
He must say that the suggestions made in Ireltud for Lt the
prevenient of the country were worthy of attention. 174 be
House ought to remember that these improvements inn*.ney,
carried on on a grand scale in order to meet a great eatktee;‘,
But it was said that these loans from the Board of Works.eoess
not to be repaid. What did the report of the Comulia'eleerwl
say ? They said, " that the re-payments were in g sts of
made with great regularity." With respect to the be ne ce 0(
some of these works. He had been told that in conse4eenows
the construction of roads in the county of Galway, the eu The
had increased to an extent that he was afraid to sung' those
House was perhaps aware that in the county of laillsY°Biashe
was one of the first harbours in the world. He mean bee
sod Bay. Well, a road was formed to this place. an"s'
~Tcoro
in 1837 there was not a single stone, and not 20 tOlll 'sped;
exported, there was at that time 1,600 tons of grain exPlhow,
there were nine stores, and a very thiving PoPtl a,,d of
The Dean of Westminster had stated to him that the '3,,sitli
Ireland, geologically regarded, was not to be compared
the land of England.
Lord BROUGHAM—He only looked at the surface. , of
Earl FITZ WILLIAM—Without going into the elreat!sr
what might be the value of a certain number of acres. Be
to the general value of land, there could be no comparison 0,
tween the two countries. The surface of the country
studded with rocks and encumbered with mountains.
Earl GREY—There are rocks in this country Ow' . Leaf
Earl FITZWILLIAM said his Noble Friend antn`,„,.
him to dispute that question with him. Speaking as
there were rot rocks scattered over the surface of this coon',.
The soil was different from that in which rocks were freq,7o
The question was. whether or not they were to raise freles°o
the position of the more favoured portion of the United
dom. He felt perfectly satisfied that they could not gel "
the difficulty in which they were at present plunged a? ea
charity they might be able to afford, it could only be re"e.
permanently by some oti er means.
ea
Earl GREY said, he thought the measures which had be
eSt
proposed by the Government were calculated to nen
e" of
Ireland. The drainage that was proposed would 1:140ble
the greatest advantage. He would remind his for'
Friend that there were other measures to be brought
bad
ward. His Noble and Learned Friend on the W0010'1'2.161
prepared a measure to facilitate the disposal of rnnerche
11,
estates in Ireland. This he conceived would be "'"f so
sirable, for the purchaser would come into possession °,oto
estate which he could improve, and land was thus brought to
the market which the purchaser would buy with a
Noble .001
said, he believed there was a vast amount of
„.c-`Oll
in Ireland, of which few wire aware, and which
sr.)
required to be developed by exertion.—(Hear,
His Noble Friend had pointed out the great advantage' W He
had arisen in some instances from the public works. rrsd
(Lo:d Grey) never heard that these works had not eonf 80
advantages, and, as they were still in operation, god Lt
oI
continue to accrue from them. One of the most inWer's is
these was, the navigation of the 'Shannon, whick was'- rest
progress, and which had, during its progress, conferred g the
advantages upon the people in that part of Ireland; but at
r5O
same time, he could not help thinking,
through his Noble Friend's speeches, a sentiment that
very dangerous character. He seemed to think
Ireland was to look to England, and to the upon
Government for aid, instead of trio ting and relsinioissi
her own exertions. There was no such dangerous rle_; 100
as he was persuaded that no country could be foreent
tbiS
opulence by the assistance of another. The wealth i,for
country was owing to the economy, to the small 'rarer
through a vast number of years, of the people, which hans,3te;
mulated ar.d increased from age, and not by aid from th'orisisi
but by individual, by private enterprise. His Noble,' d not
that thereof
seemed to think that Ireland was a poor country. and Mal his
within herself the elements of her own success; but
;10014
Noble Friend would peruse Professor Keane's work hlirisual
see how great her resources were, and how mush in",:eoisat
enter prise might do to develope them. The iwl of the soil was one great step in that directiou.odered
some places rocks had been removed, and the soil re
x.
fruitful. In Scotland this had been carried to a great e
as great blocks of granite had been removed,
had been the result. Why, many parts of England were pro'
years ago little better than mere bogs, of heaths which enple
duced no crops, but which had, by the enterprise of th
of this country, been rendered productive. It was for Ir..rden
to do the same-to depend upon herself, and not, as n
the "..ies
of his Noble Friend's speech seemed to apply, that in sWfoir,
of difficulty she was to depend upon Englancl•—"t;rshati
hear.) It was a libel upon Ireland to Ilk het
she had not within herself the elements sin, in lAr
own prosperity. He was not insensible to tbe liittereit ; bait
and fertile
loot
land, and was prepared to do his best to alleviate 6ped ire
could not be removed at enee, but by degrees.
.11
land would depend more upon herself, and )
time she would become a prosperous nation.—(
Earl that Iree
Lord MONTEAGLE agreed with the Noble
f her Ori
land must look to herself for the promotion ti. onif
prosperity; bid there were enterprises which couldcow.
be effectually carried out with the aid of the
In Scotland, fee instance, the Government, during no rec.r.
that ineatrh.t. course of
of famine, advanced money for the purpose of improving 'tad
pike roads; and Mr. Telford, in writing on the subject, e,
stated that Scotland had thereby been advanced "
rations." Now, he contended that the carrying out of a T,lte.
principle in Ireland would not fail to produce visiilar re
_ae
ejichjefro.to 3 thee Cjon;
Ireland, in her distress, did not come for aid to Eneland.obwewod
speaking in the Imperial Parliament, which w,a Vcontri•
to dispense the revenues of the country, to
buted her fair portion. She merely sought r
penal Treasury of the Imperial Government, to whim. „whch
tributed her lair share. But there was one thing to
;
this country stood alone. He meant the relief which Dm9
acid
had bountifully raised for the relief of `lreland' not
he was glad that 'the heavenly dime has is
been extinguished by the angry and erroneous ate ~, of
which had been put forward for the sole .ISV.Po-of the
putting a stop to the collection of money for the relief d been
Irish distress. Even supposing all the measures that had were
passed with respect to Ireland were as effectual as
they to
stated to be, but if they were they could not fail to "arell
encounter, at the best, a season of peril. 11'3., b
61n y
thought that some such scheme as that propoted for the
Drummond and his coadjutors was most expedient obeli
purpose of giving employment to the people on railwayasvol
the relief which was being given began to relapse• to let
something of this kind were done they must continue ,apst.
mote public works as they were compelled to do last 6e.,iglei
They would but add to the difficulties of their positilli-eetor
did not adopt other means to follow them. He lu. •
curred in the sentiments of the petition.
The petition was laid on the table.
Their Lordships then adjourned. •

HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 2.
SITES FOR SCOTTISH CHURCHES. of,
Mr. BOUVERIE (in continuation) proceeded t° -orb
The people were in a frightful state of destitution, and 'flo,ided
circumstances he should fancy the people ought to be prt,ips'
with places in which to mee;. and offer up prayers of ser re
!ion to the great Giver of all good. But they werdiog'
prived of all places of worship by the prove' not
he had already related to the House. He ler,
prepared to propose any specific remedy, but Poll
himself he was perfectly ready and willing to go to it beloe
length of the remedy proposed by his Honourable Friend
him—namely, to refer property required for sites to 0,04
judicial tribunal to have its value decided. That was the, CD he
should in the case of a railway, and why sho'"
excluded in this important instance? If a rail
which could do him no benefit, passed throug" by?
park, he could not object to it, and for 'riot
He would remind the House that the reply in that ease t Vibe
that the public convenience was required. But it was n„Qa to'
convenience of the commonwealth. A railway from Ire_A'a-tiott
Dorchester could not conduce to the accomnin-peo
of the commonwealth, but only to the een/e.,fl-slib
of the public in the neighbourhood, and the "oned
of private individuals. On that ground, and that grood
alone the Legislature should interfere. Now was the Coro
taken without compensation. It was dantnuns sine 1160.01.
But there were cases where no compensation Was alAingi
The Hon. Member then quoted the Metropolitan nul..ourst
Act, forbidding all to let for hire certain buildings or Act.
such as were contrary to the provisions of the sad
Here he said parties were in the receipt of high rent,s; pyre
perty. the Legislature stepped in and deprived them of their
perty. The ime was the case of the Commons I", a, ie#
Act, when commons, as any one knew, belonged to a feat ea
dividuals ; and yet they were deprived of these, and t'aother
the ground merely of the public health. He would quote °anted.
ease, which was more in point than any of those he had quo the
Under certain circumstances the Court of Session had the
power to divide parishes, and the presbytery also had ()(
power of taking the land of the heritorsg_rett,
such parish so divided, to the extent of four
fo:tho
as glebe land and for the purpose of building a mans! refer,
clergyman appointed to the parish. He begged, tnke, ct,i
to move for a Seleet Committee to inquire into the suu-se„,hent
Mr. EIVART seconded the motion. It was innu,Tee of
upon any Hon. Member on moving for a Select Comm andr
that House to show, first, that there was a grieranne tree
secondly, that by the appointment of a Comm
Eori)
some remedy might be suggested. He (Mr. , been
thought the existence of a grievance ban, of s
proved by his Hon. Friend—a grievance no less than 1;1f the
great portion of the subjects of Scotland being depriven_aneer
means of religious worship, and if that was not a ggd big
he did not know what was.—( Hear, hear.) a Bill
Honourable Friend moved for leave to bring in for
upon the subject, as was done by the Hon. Member .d
Perth last session, it might perhaps have ihts
that he was about to interfere with the
bail too
Sele-t
private property. His Honourable Friend f
a c
objects in view in moving the appointment were
Committee—viz., to inquire and expose-I'M'
COnUnit tee.
the legitimate functions of a Parliamentary
the Pro-
The people of Scotland were justified in saying that.e other
and tbs-
prietors of Scotland, however excellent they might be t
respects, had proved themselves intolerant in this, alight
they had duties to attend to as well as rights. They
say with their national poet—
" A king may make a belted knight,,
A marquis, duke, and a' that.'
ust In
• ow
But whether they were marquis or duke, theyoulmaintain.
been sao,
they had duti, s to perform as well as rights
the
founded in justice, he had great pleasure in se
Because he thought the claims of the Free Church
io;ere
motion.

On the question
GREY being put,
Sir GEORGE said, in reference to the present
uestion, he would have to call the attention of the Hous
e tn.
what took place on former occasions when this subject wa'
brought under consideration. He had hoped that tI e bring
made and the debate thereon would have rendered the
and that the
ing forward of the suhject no longer necessary,
comparatively few proprietors who refused sites would have
seen the policy of being influenced by the feelings and gi:
mons expressed by the House. On the first time tie subj!cfr
came under consideration the Right lion. Baronet opPoote
(Sir James Graham) stated to his late lamented friend Mr.
P. M. Stewart, that be hoped that the proprietors would sr
the necessity of giving way on the subject ; or that if they did
not accede to the prayer of the Free Church, tb5t.11295.
bring-