The Sun.
London, England, 1840-03-28 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, MARCH 28, 1840.

he believed there were many papers in the hands of Go-
vernment which would show that they were unduly it-
fluenced by Russia. Now he (Lord Palmerston) should
only say that he did net know to what papers his Hon.
Friend had alluded, and he believed that others might be
unduly influenced as well as the Government. Hou.
Members might, like them, have their peculiar prejudices
and predilections. With regard to the surrender of the
Turkish fleet, his Hon. Friend had stated that all the officers
of that fleet had concurred in going over to Mehemet Ali.
But be ( Lord Palmerston) believed, on the contrary, that
none of those officers knew of the inteleion of the Admirel
in going to Alexandria, and that when he arrived there in
sight of the Egyptian fleet, so little did the captains of the
ships know the purpose for which they wete brought
there, that many of them cleared their decks for action,
thinking they were going to meet the enemy. He had
that from a person who had been an eye witness of the
scene, and in whose accuracy he placed the most entire
dependence. That statement was so different from that of
his Hon. Friend, that he thought he would now doubt the
accuracy of his information. It had also been stated that
Colonel Hodges, the representative of Great Bri air in
Syria, had been denied access to the Pacha. That state-
ment, however, was unfounded, as Colonel Hodges, on the
contrary, stood on the same footing with the Pacha as for-
mer Consuls. Nothing could be so inconvenient for a per-
son holding his high and responsible office, as to be called
on in this incidental way to discuss matters of the
highest importance, and which were the subjects of negotia-
tions, not merely on the part of this country, but of the
other great Powers of Europe. He would not, therefore,
enter into these matters, and he would not give the expla-
nation which his Hon. Friend would seem to have ex-
pected on the views and policy of this country ; and he
would only say, that they had adhered to the opinions stated
in her Majesty's speech—viz., that it was for the interest
of this country to maintain the independence of the Turk-
ish empire, an opinion in which his Hon. Friend concurred
with him, though he was determined to act in a very diffo-
rent manner. He would leave that opinion to the judg-
ment of the House, without entering into any details as to
their negotiations, in which England, Russia, France,
Turkey, and Egypt were engaged, as he trusted the
House would believe that he was only doing his duty in
avoiding the inconvenient discussion of matters, which werestill under the consideration and the responsible care of
her Majesty's Government. Whenever these matters
were brought to a close, let that close come when it
might, he would be prepared to defend the course which
the Government were pursuing, and he would then state
the grounds of that course, confidently expecting that
they would be satisfactory to the House and the country.
Mr. FE CTOR was not at all satisfied with the explana-
tions given by the Noble Lord. The policy of the Noble
Lord appeared to him to be based on the most fallacious
grounds. He thought that the power of Mehemet Ali
should be strengthened in Egjpt, and he believed that the
Pacha had already introduced the most beneficial improve-
ments into that country. Life and property were secure
there at present, fur the first time within the memory of
the oldest inhabitant. It had been said, however, that
Mehemet Ali had been guilty of cruelty and exactions,
but he (Mr. Fector) believed that the system he was pur.
suing had been forced on him. While he was liable to
the attack of Turkey, and while he was compelled to
maintain an army of 100,000 men, he would find himself
necessitated to have recourse to violence for the support
of his Government. He would not, however, go over
the details of the question which had been already so ably
discussed by the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, but he
should still say that the interests of justice, of humanity,
and of education, and, at the same time, of the political
relations of this country, and the promotion of its com-
merce, required that they should support that ruler who
WAS destined, he believed, to be the founder of a new
dynasty.
Lord C. HAMILTON could not conceive how it was
that when two parties had ,fallen out and were about to
settle their quarrel, they should be prevented from doing
so by the intervention of the Five Powers; nor could he
think that upon such an important subject, the House of
Commons ought to be left in the dark. The Noble Lord
was the inure b3und to state something to the House, to
give them some information, because he said that upon
many subjects the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, had been
misinformed. He had lately been in the East, and he
could only say that he had heard many of the subjects
alluded to by the Hon. Member treated much in the same
way. Tho Noble Lord had in a very general way said,
that our Ambassador at Constantinople eid not en
courage the war upon Mehemet Ali He wished
to hear the Noble Lord distinctly and clearly make
such a statement, for it was believed that he very strongly
encouraged the war, and at no place was it so much be-
lieved as in Constantinople. Again, the Noble Lord said
Mehemet Ali was the aggressor upon the occasion ; had
he intended to be so, it was very strange that he should
have been at such a distance from his al my at so critical a
moment. But the fact, he was assured, was otherwise--
that the Pacha's army were menaced by a superior force—
that they retired, and it was not till the Sultan's army was
in possession of fourteen towns, that they acted as aggres-
sors. Upon that point, also, it was most important that
the House should have information. Then, again, the Noble
Lord said the cause of the war was the declaration of
independence on the part of the Pacha. There again he
(Lord C. H.) was at issue with the Noble Lord. The
Pacha had complained of being obliged to keep up a large
army, and live in a constant state of preparation for war,
and said if that state of things were not put an end to, then
he would declare his independence in order that he might
be at liberty to form alliances. The Noble Lord also
complimented Russia upon her conduct in tee business.
No doubt, so long as Russia found the Noble Lord doing
the very work she wanted done, she woull look on well
pleased.—( Hear, boar.) No doubt she was contented
with the part taken by the Noble Lord in humiliating that
power, which must stand between her and that she much
covets.—( Cheers.)
Sir R. PEEL said it was the general understanding
in the House, that if a Secretary of State stated upon re-
sponsibility that great public inconvenience would arise to
the public service by the production of certain papers that
they should not be pressed for, but that rule must be
taken with a limitation, or the House would be
shut out from all information whatever, and so be
debarred from discussing any question, even of vital im-
portance. The Noble Lord had made her Majesty say in
the speech from the Throne that the agreement among the
Five Powers had prevented a renett al of hostilities; but,
at least, he ought to go further, and tell them whether
there had been as yet any approximation towards a settle-
ment of the affins of the Levant. It was a very generally
received impression on the public mind that the Noble
Lord had made certain propositions which had been ac-
ceded to by Austria and Russia, but were rejected by
France. If this were the fee', then probably the Noble
Lord would be unable to give the House any further in-
formation next year. It was further said that the proposi-
tion of the Noble Lcrd was to put the Pacha in the same
situation as the Lord Lieuten ,nt of Ireland,--( A leugh )
Nuw, was there any analogy in the eases of the two ? The
Lord Lieutenancy of Ireland was not yet hereditary.—
( Lsughtei.) Since the Union there had beets no less than
14 or 15 Lords Lieutenant —was that keeping up and
maintaining the integrity of the Ottoman empire I and
was it a wonder that such a proposition should meet
with the opposition of France ? ( Hear, hear, hear.)
The four great points connected with the foreign policy upon
which they h-d no information, were the Levant, the state of
our connections with Persia, the relation in which we stood
with America on the North Eastern Boundary—that was most
important--Ithough negotiations were stil! going on, they had
a little information doled out to them every time a ship arrived
bringing American newspapers. The fourth point related to
China. Now if the rule of the Noble Lord had been departed
from in 1837 and le3B, he had a very strong impression that
had the House been atvare of the position in which our mer-
chants stood at that time, they would have been able to give
some advice to the Crown which would have altered our posi-
tion now.—(Cheers.) Suppose the Hon. Member fur Kil-
kenny were to alter his moten, and ask only for extracts, would
the Noble Lord upon his responsibility say that there was no
part of the correspondence that could be produced without pre-
judice to the public interests? If the Noble Lord made that
statement, he would be very unwilling to compel their production
under such circumstances. He hoped the Noble Lord would
say whether there was any gradual approach to a settlement of
the affairs of the Levant.

Lord PALMERSTON said, speaking in his offcial capacity
he must say that no essential papers, none that could be of any
use, could be produced without great prejudice to the public
service. No doubt he could give extracts of any despatch,
but they would not be of the snghtest importance. W ith re-
spect to the approximation to a settlement he could give no in-
formation on the subject without going into these very points,
which he objected to having opened He would go so far as to
say that so far as negotiation had gone it had been satisfactory,
in general sati.factory.--( Laughter. )
Mr. C. BULLER—The doctrine laid down by the Noble
Lord was that while he was engaged in doing anything the
House of Commons were not to know what he was doing.—( A
laugh, and a Tory Member said, " Or nothing.") He was more
disposed to complain of the Noble Lord doing too much than
too little. With respect to the question rf the Eastern Boundary,
see at what extraordinary odds we had to contend. The Ame-
ricans had their General Senate. they had their Senate of the
State of Maine, all reporting upon the question; there they
had a public, partially informed, it might be said, but
excited by that partial information; while on the other
hand, the people in this country had no information except
the driblets from the despatches every time that we bad an
arrival of American new-papers. Again, while we had tourteen
ships of war in the Mediterranean, and while they were told
that any day they might hear of them attacking Alexandria or
the fleet of Mehemet Ali—that we were to take the side of
one party while France would be on the other—surely, under
all these circumstances, the House ought to know
something of why it all was. While they were
liable to be involved in a war, he thought it was a
modest enough request in the Third Estate of the realm, to
ask for information. He would support the motion of the
Hon. Member, if he pressed it to a division.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, as the question had been argued
so generally, he felt bound to say a few words before the do-
bate was closed. He agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet,
ttial: tips general rule of the House, with respect to calling for
papers wu, that it was never pressed when a Secretary
of State, in his plat)°, said they could not be pro-
duced
without public inconvenience or danger.—( Hear, hear. )
If they were to lay it down as a principle that negotiations were
not tO ii:t carried on between Government and Government, or
Sovereign and 4overeign, but between popular assemblies, he
was convinced nothing would be more calculated than such a
principle to involve the peace of the world. It was the duty of '
they
yh
hadre
.Secretary of State to ask the House to place that limit on
their li.'r4rui for papers relating to public affairs which gas ne-
the House had much iCisou to Pm
ces‘ary for their taeatrable trausaction ; but he did not think
plain of his Noble Friend
them.two pr three pars on
for declining to produce papers which he could produce consist-
-14.4 with his public duty. Had the House had no documents ,
this subject? They had had a great many; but at a time when
gan't4o dti'ocPuTeis QjititNin9rithhe 41;Msrica' or
China
? Had
;.iii Noble Friend said there was no inconvenience in producing
were states( to be tho
with respect in Russia. 41 pr,e time Ihere was a strong feelingex-
isting respecting
-C-I;i•gspose he instanced this by stating what had occurred I
bring matters to an issue,
the encroacTimentsof Rtissia in the East, and the
Government received information which induced thern to think
they 0:44.--d not forbear taking some steps with regard to what
manner in which it was thought nest by his Noble Friend to
proSgOilr'S of Russian agents. The
was by stating fully and fairly to the •
Russian Government the information he had received, and
L.iartiA4 btrn, for a candid and honourable explanation of their
conduct.' TidethaL eq,..t,2l;nd If lirOdeded velure Lis ansavcr 40
c.c.;7tsined a ereat deal of complaint
of the conduct of. Etui
explanation had been received, would live produced'a grill
deal of public indignation at the conduct of Russia, and there=
sia; a