The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-09 00:00:00

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of thirgs before the law was reformed. He would sower;, capable of the most tyrannical and pernicious applica-
beg of them to recollect that, under its ir.fluence, the ',ion, end beyond the law, lie hoped the House would
poor were not impoverished but degraded—that it sane- ho
consent to such a clause, and that, if- he could not
ti
the miserable system of paving wages out or the Mr.ifope tow be joined by a majority in his support
°seat to theakleY rate—that it discouraged the industrious, and offered's views, the House would not. c.on-
__proposed prolongation of the mmissioh•
a premium to the idle. Let them remember that it
—( Help-, hear.) By another clause relating to the
acted as a cancer on the heart of the country ; and he Cornmi-sioners' Chambers, they would be to a great ex-
would then ask them whether those were the friends of tent relieved from the necessity of notifying and making
the poor who wished to restore thorn to the debasement public all their regulations. This was also a most
of the former system. That was not the course which objectionable clause. Even under the present law, by
the friends of the labouring classes should pursue. They which they were required to notify publicly every regula•
should, on the contrary, teach them to rely upon their lion which they formed, they sometimes evaded their re-
own exertions, and endeavour to secure for them better sponsibility ; and in his union, very great dissatisfaction
and inconvenience had been occasioned by their doing so.
wages and more employment. Those were not the
rleieliebfetle the
ed that so far from its being necessary to give
enemies of the poor who wished for those objects, but
what they terpmeeodr ityheriurl justean principled
o
square, iff relief, they persevered in
those were their enemies who endeavoured by misrepre-''
sentations, to enlist their passions against a law intended measured by rule and square bythe
ef
Commissionerswhich at So.
to raise their condition. It should be remembered, merset Huuse, they would increase that alienation which
too, that England was the only country in which , was at present taking place. He regretted that he
anything word)), of the name of a Poor-law should differ from Honourable Gentlemen whom he re-
was in existence—it was the only country in vii;ch the speeted, but he could never consent to the prolongation
law compelled those who were not paupers, to relieve li
tinhainiowwca•sr onfeetehsesaCryetnotrgaliveßitiahredir
of
f C
accountsem m
those who were. He did not complain of that, but ha
thought the circumstance should be remembered byCommissioners rpsubl longer
e r
Srr R. PEEL said that there were many reasons which
those who indulged in such swetving condemnations of
o
ive
he English root-law. He should also observe that.
-:gdedrure( ichtetei induced
made
t'sitsha'B'
dolt ngd-f the
eau.diensict nisstmeisdei teievhre'eaemftodaefvgtroihttrhuae favour
of the
wfteeib: experiment :el Catrsii subject;
administrationeeoqnn'etde 'wrwtehi°lai cni' hls
the amended system was in many respects superior to
or
of the Poowlaw ; the second was, whether it was de-
the old one. In a Metropoldan district with which
he was connected they had effected a saving of 95,000/el
year in the Poor-rate, while at the same time they greatly sireble to adhere to the superintendence of the Central
amended the condition of the poor who were better accom- Bo id of Commissioners. There certainly were great
modated and had butter medical attendance than before. evils hi the present system. He thought he perceived
If the stories which had been circulated with a View to that there was a cancer eating away the vitals of that
bring the law into disrepute, were traced to their sr,ure,:, couutry—paralyzing its healthful condition—and which
they would be found to be either destitute of foundation or required the prompt intervention of Parliament.—
gross exaggerations.—( Cheers.) Lamentable occur- ( Hear. hear.) He Wag much inclined to agree with
rences had no doubt taken place, but they had taken the Hon. Gentleman; and be doubted whether the
place under the old law ; also under the old sys. time had arrived for making that experiment. He was
tern those ocrurrenccs bad been much more nu. inclined to think if a Conservative Government had pro-
merous. He did not mean to defend those abuses. posed the measure, there would be no great difficulty in
but they were not necessary consequences of the new law; carrying the amendment. If it would require the active
and if wrong had been done, he would say let the wrong co-operation of the great political parties to effect the al-
doer be punished. No pauper could now be bandied about teration, he concurred with the Hon. Gentleman that that
from parish to parish until he died in the cart, but if des- active co-operation would be more easily procured by those
titute, he was entitled to immediate relief- The lion. in whom he believed that Hon. Gentlemen placed the
Member for Finsbury had drawn a very lamentable picture most unbounded confidence. Hon. Gentlemen were apt
of the case of a man sixty years of age ; but he thought to forget what was the state of things when the alteration
the Hon. Member ought to have been prepared. Had he was made in the Poor-law. It was not unnatural that they
studied the Act, he would have known that provision had should dwell almost exclusively on the evils and abuses
been made for the relief out of the house of persons who which they were actually experiencing, and fcrgrt
had attained sixty years of age. It was only to the able those, however infinitely greater they might have been,
bodied that out of door relief was refused. He respected which were not su fresh in their memory. He thought
the feeling of the poor man who considered the workhouse it of great importance to remind the House of
a disgrace, and made every exertion to keep himself and what was the state of thirgs at the time the
his family out of ir ; but a man had no right to say that it alteration in the Poor-law took place, because that state
was not a fit place for him, if he chose to live upon his of things constituted his (Sir R. Peel's) vindication for the
neighbour. The union house was in some re- support which he now gave to the amendment-proposed.
spects better than the poor man's own cottage—it While .the Hon. Gentleman was speaking, be "(Sir R.
was warmer, and the diet was better; and what less cruel Peel) thought he recollected a Report on the Con-
mode than restraint could be devised to make a difference dition of the Agricultural Labourers, which he thought
between the workhouse and the cottage? One word with it would not be without advantage to refer to in the pre-
respect to the meritorious poor. It would certainly be sent discussion, and which he would therefore bring before
more agreeable to his feelings if all could be relieved out the consideration of the House. In the year 1824 a Com.
of the house, but he thought in all hard cases private cha- mittee was appointed to inquire into the rate of labourers'
rity was the proper source of relief; and whenever they wages, and evidence of the condition of the agricultural
met with a hard case, they could always relieve it by labourers in several parts of the country was taken.
putting their hands in their pockets. It had been said that Some thought that labourers had good right to CM-
although the New Poor-law was adapted to agricul- plain of the diminished amount of the poor-rate paid to
tural districts, yet it was not adapted to manufacturing them. The lion. Gentleman contrasted the increase of
towns. Now, he considered it was even more adapted for property—the increase of taxation—the increase of wealth
those towns than for agricultural counties. Towns were generally with the diminished amount of poor-rate, and
subject to constant fluctuations in trade ; the operatives he thought that ground of complaint accounted for
there were in the receipt of higher wages, and therefore the small part appropriated to the relict of the
that law must be admirably adapted to them which taught labouring poor. He ( Sir R. Peel) thought that he could
them to make provision, by saving their wages, against take a hundred in which that ground of complaint did not
the day of pressure.—( Hear.) He believed that the arise, and in which the Hon. Gentleman would find a pro-
welfare of the English labouring classes depended upon gressive amount of money appropriated to the relief of the
:he maintenance of the New Poor-law, and he thought labouring poor, and he would see if effects, which he would
that justice and mercy alike forbade its being repealed. deem it natural to expect, had resulted. (The Right
He begged Hon. Gentlemen on his side of the House 110 L lion. Baronet here proceeded to read from the Report, ex-
to look upon this measure with less favour because it was tracts of evidence relative to a certain hundred in the
a Whig one. It was too great a measure to be discussed county of Suffolk. The accounts, he said, were kept from
with party or political feelings. Hs was as little disposed Lady Day to Lady Day, in each year—from 1810 to 1824
as any one to overlook the errors of her Majesty's Minis. —showing an increase in the rate and in the amount ap.
ters, but when they did deviate into right—( A laugh)— propristed for the relief of the labouring poor. From
as they had done in the New Tithe-law, the New Poor- Lady Day, 1810, to Lady Day, 1811, the amount paid
law, and, he would add, the Treaty of last July--(Cheers) was 1/ 3=,; from 1811 to 1812, it was 11. 10s. ; and from
—be considered he should not be acting the part of a good 1812 to 1815, it was 31. ; it then increased to 61. the next
citizen if he did nut give them his support.—(Chews.) It year; the subsequent year it amounted to 51. ; it then
he thought the measure was merely to save the money of went on increasing till it amounted to 1,3841 ; and in the
the rich he would not support it, but believing its object year 1822 it advanced to 2,297/ ; and in 1824 it increased
to be to raise the character of the poor, he would give it to 3,5361. In that progressive increase of rate, and progres-
his cordial support, in spite of any unpopularity which sive increase of money appropriated to the relief of the poor,
might attach to him. in voting fur the second reading, what was the result? Did the moral condition of the la-
however, he was not to be u iderstoed as approving of all bsurers improve by that increased application of money to
the details, but they would be better discussed in Coin- their relief ? Were their actual comforts advanced ? Let
mittec. the House hear what the witness said: What are the
Mr. BUCK supported the Bill, but he thought the effects you find produced by the present system of erriplov-
Noble Lord ought to pledge himself that he would allow ing the labourers ?" He was asked at first with respect to
certain parts of it to be amended when it went into Com- the unempleyed labourers. The witness answered that
mittee. He alluded particularly to the power given to the the elect produced was, the total demoralization of the
Assistant Puor-law Commissioners. He hoped that lower orders. That they were made poachers and robbers
such powers would be curtailed, as they were utterly by it; and that he could not explain the state of demo-
uncoestitutional. ralizatimi to which it reduced them. Yet, continued the
Mr. M UNTZ had been long aware that the great mis- Right Hoe. Baronet, the rate and the appropriation of
fortune of the people of the country was, that those who money were progressive. He (Sir R. Peel) was only
were the law makers were not the law workers. If the wanting to show the House that the Hon. Gentleman was
Noble Lord and his colleagues were to act as Poor-law not correct in his • arguments, by which he would prove
Guardians for only six months, they would never attempt that the industrious poor had a right to complain, be-
to enforce such an obnoxious law, fur it made no distiec. cause they had not received a certain amount. He observed
Lion between the honest man and the idle, dissolute, and that crime had increased undoubtedly within the last five
drunken vagabond. If those stupid farmers who made up years, owing to the present system of relieving with money.
wages out of the Poor-rates, had discovered that they paid It broke the bond of anion between the farmer and the la-
those rates themselves, and therefore gained nothing by bourer, who both considered their interest as one and the
the practice; they would have remedied the thing them- same. That mutual feeling now no longer existed. In
selves, as he (Mr. Muntz) had seen it remedied in other the generality of parishes it appeared that from five to forty
places. He remembered a time when the same practice labourers have been without employment, loitering about
existed in the town of Birmingham, but in a very abort time during the day, insulting passengers on the road, or con-
it was cured, and there was no danger that it would ever turning their time in sleep, in order to be the more active
under any circumstances he revived. It was said that there during the hours of darkness. Let them stypose, then, that
had been a great saving under this law. He (Mr. Muntz) the Hon. Gentleman came to those men in that condition,
doubted the truth of that statement. From all that he and addressed to them the inflammatory speech that he deli-
could learn, the amount of wages at present was fully equal ',wed to night—if he should have said to the able bodied la..
to what it had been before the passing of the present law. bourers,: "Itis a shame that you cannot get work ; what a
—( Cheers from Lord John Russell and Lord Howick ) scandalous thing it is for those hard.bearted farmers not to
The Noble Lord cheered that statement, but be (Mr. afford you the meansof support you have a rightto underthe
Muntz) believed that no saving had been effected in the Act of Parliament," what, he would ask, might have
aggregate by the operation of the Poor-law.—( Hear.) been the consequence ? The Hon. Gentleman might have
Now, whatever might be the experience of other gentle- drawn exactly the same case of distress that he did to-
men, his (Mr. Muntz's) was uniformly to this effect. He night, exciting their feelings, but disregarding these consi-
had never known a man of kindly feeling who was overseer durations, which ought to weigh with a rational man as a
for the space of six months who did not in that time be- remedy for a great and growing evil. Let it be supposed
come callous to all who were placed under his control. that the Legislature would grant relief to the able-bodied
That being the case, what must be the feelings of those poor, without exactly distinguishing the labourer from that
who were permanently masters of workhouses, who had man who had a tendency to the degraded condition of the
held that office for two, three, five, or six years e—( Heare workman who was able to pay his rent, but unwilling,—let
hear.-) Many instances of the cruelty of these persons had them suppose that the Legislature would put some such
been related to the House by the Hon. Member fur Fins_ test to the labourer as the workhouse, that was, to say "You
bury, and let them not imagine. that these were solitary shall have comfortable lodgings and food, but it is required
cases, although there were few men of the same energy that you take up your residence in the workhouse." Let
and ability as the Hon. Member for Finsbury to bring them it then suppose that the Legislature thought that the legiti-
before the country. These were not the only cases mate effect of that would be to improve the mural charac-
in which the law was objectionable, and in which its seve- ter, and ultimately the physical condition of the labourer,
rity aed injustice were manifested. These ought undoubt- would the Hon. Gentleman say that the Legislature was
edlv to be a distinction made between large towns, where hound to adopt that system? He ( Sir R. P.)admitted that it
great numbers were frequently thrown out of employment, was impossible to amend the law without giving rise to in-
and small places, where the distress was upon a much dividual cases of great distress. He lamented that, but they
small r scale. He ( Mr. Muntz) had seen ten thousand must look in those things to general results; they could
men terown out of employment at once. Whea they ap- nut decide by individual cases, lamentable though they
plied for relief, they were told that they might come into might be. lie was inclined to believe that there were
the louse, but they would not accept the offer. In fact abuses in the old system which were Bever heard of, and
it was not intended that they should; there was not suffi- of more aggravated kind, because they escaped the public
dent room for them; and the offer was made merely for eye. He regretted that there existed under the amended
the purpose of getting rid of them. The intention of the system abuses also, but he hoped that the consequence of
law, perhaps, was good, but its effect was most unjust having public attention called to them would be their
and severe. He was quite confident that if the Noble removal. It had been hoped that the application of some
Lord and his colleagues knew the working of the law, new test to improve the labourer would teach him the
they would be the last men not only to bring it in, but value of independence, and it was for that reason the great
even to vote for it.—( Hear.) Feeling, as he did, the alteration was made in the law. He (Sir IZ. Peel) deeply
greatest objectien to the renewal of the Commission fur regretted that after the expense that had been incurred,
ten years; believing, as he had long believed, that the which was, comparatively speaking, a minor consideration,
Poor-law Bill, like the Factory Bill, and several others it had been found necessary to abandon the alteration
which he could name, were the effects of an erroneous after a trial of four or five years. He was not able to
view of finance, and calculated to inflict a deep injury upon gather from the entire speech of the Hon. Gentleman
the country, he (Mr. Mentz) would do all in his power to what project he proposed. Was it intended to apply some
prevent the passing of the law on that occasion. test by which they would be enabled to distinguish the vir-
The lion. Mr. LIDDELL rose and said that he felt tuous, industrious man? That was the test which in his
it his duty to vote forth: amendineut of the Hun, Member opinion they ought to apply, and by which they would be
for Finsbury. The Noble Lord, in intr. clueing this Bill, enabled :to do their duty to tho rate-payers, from whom they
had thought fit to remind the House of those grievances should be cautious to exact not one shilling for the reward
and evils which it was the obj 'et of the Peer-law Amend- of ieleness or fraud. He had come to the conclusion that
rnent to remove. He (the Hon. Mr. Liddell) thought it was not fit to have that experiment adopted in 1834.
the Nsble Lord might almost have spared himself the The Right Hon. Baronet here adverted to the statements
trouble of going over that grouud again ;
for as he made by the lion. Gentleman the Member for Birming-
understood, that was a subject on which there was little haul, and observed that in many parishes there were far-
difference of opinion. He agreed with the Noble Lord mess who were in the habit of paying wages out of the
in giving full credit to the authors of she Poor-law fur poor-rate, and those farmers were called stupid—that was the
having done their best to check a system which, if per- term—and yet that plan exactly couferrcd the benefit which
severed in, if not checked by even a rigorous enactment, lie expected from the Central Board of Commissioners.
might have produced innumerable evils in many parts of The cases to which the Act of Elizabeth applied were
the kingdom. He agreed with the Poor-law Commis- mentioned ; but the majority of these were cases of mis-
sioners in that part of their Report in which they referred placed humanity. He expected that the Central Board
to the progress of pauperism ire the more highly pauper- of Commissioners would gradually introduce a uniformity
ised districts of England. It was the object of the Poor- of system, and persuade those, who admitted the abuses of
law to remedy that evil, and he believed it was necessary the law, by reason and not by compulsion ;by represent-
that a very strong remedy should be applied. To that ex- ing the beneficial effects of a good administration of the
tent the Noble Lord and himself were agreed ; and law, they would be able more effectually to introduce
to that extent be was willing to support the a universally good and humaned system.—( Hear, hear.)
continuance of the Poor-law. But he would Again, tie Hon. Gentleman sai that no saving whatever
believes there has been a nominal saving in the amount of
contemplated by that Bill. He would• never accede to the
never consent to go to so great an extent as was had been effected, and for this. reason. , that although he
t of the increased wages ,of labour.—
Poor-law Amendment Act, it was necessary to vote for the caarge accoun
proposition, that in order to work out the principle el the thte rate contribu'ed, yet there has been an increase in the
d sum which he contributes to this
rate, pay for
opinion, a fair and intelligible ground for objecting to the: iner •striking
perpetuity of the Poor. law Commission. That was, in his (
increased
) Putting together the existing rate, oar
the
Hon. Gentleman said
no actual saving.—(Cheers.) Why, the
viz., specific objections to certain clauses, which be consi- there will be
mas a great au! busily, II
bid. To this ground 'he was able to add some others, labour, and a bil lance. , the H •
dered to be extremely injurious in their operations uponpersons,fr ant one of the
had hoped
course of his able address, hid given to the House his ex- advantages he (S' R.
industriousorn the adminis-
the community. The Hon. Member for Finsbury, in the ploy rent ntotleamgarneiartnupmebeelr) o f y,
le gave em-
the
and vie-
eive increased
the employer and in favour
and he (Sir
phei rtiheencsch(rifr,tuhhedwinogrkhinlegtroefptehleis.lawHine,tthhee pHoeprujarmdri.stLricidt-s
tteraethiosnlaohfouthreer Poorl-law that thewages,
del would say a few words as to the working of the law in R. Peel) rejoiced that on ha adding
there had been no
But ai the increased wages to
a district of a character altogether different, in a dis- saving.—( Cheers.)
trict strictly rural and agricultural, where, as was ad- the diminished amount of the poor-rate, on the whole the
mitted by almost all authorities, it was riot neces- balance was against
sary, so tar as regarded any abuse which had here- of the employed —(Cheers.) The Hon. Member for
amount of wages in
tofore existed, to make any alterations in the old law. Finsbury in selecting the different counties of England,
Regard for truth and fairness compelled him to admit that and showing the low them, had se-
the law did work indifferently well in his immediate die- lected the county of Delon. Now it did so happen
trict. But the object of the law was to bent fit some class that the county of Devon was the county in
or other ; arid, in his union, it had benefited no one—the which the greatest amount of out-door- elief had
poor were not better taken care of and the rates had in- been granted.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He (Sr(i Robert
creased. He did, however, know a union in which the Peel) had looked at the returns—[The lion, Gentleman
rates had been diminished to the amount of 2,000/ a year. said that only 7s. a week had been paid to them. This
There were some points connected with his own parish to a; geared exceedingly low, but it was necessary to inquire
Hear, hear.) This was in a
which be wished to call the attention of the House. One whether that low rate was occasioned by the administra-
great grievance was the extent of the union, which ton- tion of the work-house test, for if not it was no argument
dered it difficult to get guardians to attend from remote against the Poor-lawl—and he found in the county of
g paid for their services, which was Devon, selected by the Hon. Gentleman, there was the
somewhat illegally by a private rate. The pre. lowest amount of wag es•—(
telffisetrciteetds,suo•mitl:
sent Bill proposed to make overseers eligible as guar- county in which, in only two unions there had been a posi-
dians—a practice which was connived at, at present, in the tive order to discontinue out-door relief, and in which, at the
union of which he spoke, and was not attended with benefit, present moment, of all the counties of England the great-
He thought it was highly objectionable, and hoped the cat amount of out-door relic fives given. He did not mean
Noble Lord would reconsider it. But he "MO now to to say that out-door relief was the cause of lowness of
another (jection, namely—the maintenance of the Cen- I wages ; but it was a singular fact that the county in which
teal Board for so long a period as ten years, during which , was the lowest amount of wages was the county in which
they possess a power of governing the whole kingdom—, was the greatest amount of out-door relief, On these

71-1147 SUN, LONDOV. TUESnA I% FEBRUARY 9. IP4i.