The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-29 00:00:00

commodation would be afforded. The population of Yar-
mouth was 27,849.
Mr. MIRHEWETHER (who appears for the Norfolk Com-
pany) intimated that those for whom he appeared were
ready to admit the necessity of a line through the district ;
in fact, it would be his duty to show that such a line was '
required.
The CHAIRMAN said it would be necessary to adduce some
evidence to show that such a line was required. Counsel
would of course use their discretion, and not adduce unne-
cessary
evidence.
minutelyYarmouth,
it 3 gaveleea
evidence evera witnesses,nfa veufavour
of
the welllinaec
i
saperiority over the line of the Norfolk Company.
,clu andain tdeedt awi tdh
Mr. Cobel, a gentleman connected with the Yarmouth
Custom-house, said ships came to Yarmouth from all parts
of the world with the exception of Asia; that the imports
and exports were rapidly on the increase, and that the feel-
ing of the town was decidedly in favour of a station at
Southtown. For cattle it would be particularly useful.
Cross-examined by Mr. CORRY—Cattle might be put on
the trams, and so conveyed to the stations for transmission
to their destination.
Mr. Jackson, soap manufacturer, of Yarmouth, said last
year he manufactured 500 tons of soap. He sent a great
quantity to the district traversed by the proposed line, and
fur that purpose he had found the present station very de-
fective, and the cause of much delay, on account of the want
of sufficient accommodation. By a more direct line and an
additional station his trade would be increased. He understood
that the new station of the Norfolk Company, on the site of
Paget's brewery, was intended to be a passenger station, so
that it would not cause much additional goods accommoda-
tion at the present station. There was a general feeling in
Yarmouth in favour of a station like that of the proposed
line. He should send his goods to the district from it.
Adjourned until to-morrow.

To Captain HARRIS, the witness replied that he appre..
hended no difficulty in starting trains from a site which was
so low as to be in a cutting, and he cited the Euston-square
station as an instance.

Mr. TOLLEMACHE asked if, in the event of the Dumfries
Company not getting their line, the North British would
take it up?
Mr. PAITEN said that they would state their case to the
Committee, and also lay before them their proposition for
supplying a communication between Hawick and Carlisle.
Mr. Blythe's examination continued—The sharpest curve
on their line was three furlongs at the point of junction with
the Newcastle and Carlisle Railway. They had also two
curves of almost two furlongs within the Canobie district.
The estimate of the works, which would include the price
of land, was amply sufficient for a double line of rails ex-
tending above 25 miles. The cost per mile was about
16,0001., and the total cost would amount to about 420,0001.
Cross-examined by Mr. Sergeant Mummy—He did not
know that it would be likely that heavy traffic would be
sent from Belfast round to Dublin and Holyhead, and so to
York.—(Laughter.) He did not therefore think that the
examination on that point was preposterous. He had heard
Mr. Kennedy's evidence with respect to the mode of transit
for fat and half fed cattle. He thought that the obvious
route would be that given by the North-Western Company,
provided that company charged such rates as would pre-
vent competition from ether companies, which were not so
favourably circumstanced. With respect to the branch to
Brampton, he acknowledged that the Dumfries Railway was
more distant by 240 yards. He declared most certainly that
the Dumfries Company had not a joint interest with the
North British Company. The only connexion that existed
between them was, that Mr. Miller was principal engineer
of both lines. Even if this branch to Brompton and Milton
were granted to the Dumfries Company, and they did not do
justice to the public, the Caledonian would interpose a check,
because they effected a junctien with the Newcastle and
by a circuit of only four miles. gers to the same points
:
ppaasrstenof the Earl of Carlisle—
Caßrlyisli‘ei,ra.nßdAcmousilidANtsh,,uos atrhrye
Carlisle—
The Dumfries line did not intersect one of the streets of
Brompton.
Mr. John Miller, C.E., examined by Mr. LIDDELL—Mr.
Locke and he were jointly employed some six or seven years
ago to survey the ground between Glasgow and Carlisle, and
in 1841 the Railway Commissioners caused an investigation
to be made into the subject. The Caledonian Com-
pany, in regard to their line, made considerable
alteration with respect to the fork to Edinburgh and
Glasgow. He reported that the best single line to
Glasgow was that proposed by the Nithsdale Company.
If the Caledonian Railway were to be granted the
branch to Gretna, he considered that it would be entailing
an inconvenience on the public, because it would, in fact, be
attaching a branch to a branch. A great obstruction would
be offered to through passengers, and that would be increased
in the case of the local passengers. He thought that it
would be for the interest of the Caledonian Railway Com-
pany to force die -Kilmar4ock traffic "round by Glasgow,
instead of permitting it to'be transmitted on the Glasgow,.
Dumfries, and Carlisle Railway; • He considered that for the
purposes of fully developing the traffic on this line, it should
have an independent connexion, with the south and east of
England.
Cross-examined by Mr. COCEBUS.N—He seriously believed
that the Kilmarnock traffic, could be forced round by
Glasgow, if the Caledonian Company threw impediments
in the way of the Dumfries and Carlisle Rail-
way, by working the southern branch at Spring-
field. They could also interfere with the traffic at
Annan by altering the hours of their train. He would not if
the position of things were different, recommend the Com-
pany for which he acted to do so. He did not know what
the directors of the Caledonian might de. He imputed no-
thing to the engineers of that company. The matter was,
he believed, altogether in the hands of the directors.
As between Glasgow and Carlisle, he believed that
with the same engine power and the same load
(that was the engines at present employed) the Cale-
donian could not master their gradient of one in seventy-five
at all. With engines suitable to that stiffer gradient the
Caledonian would arrive at Glasgow, in that shorter time
which might be represented by twenty from miles of distance.
Re-examined by Mr. TALBOT—He considered that the
possession of the power of passing under the main line of
the Caledonian at Springfield would materially influence
the interests of the Dumfries Company in respect to the
southern traffic. The possession of this power would be a
safety-valve—if he might use the expression—for the protec-
tion of the public interests.
Mr. Hawkshaw, C.E., examined by Mr. TALBOT—Had
examined the relative lines before the Committee, and engi-
neeringly considered there was no great difference between
them. He was engineer of the Manchester and Leeds
Company, and he had observed the effect of compe-
tition in that district, which was covered by many
rival interests. He thought that the public would be better
served if the country were in possession of the Dumfries
Company, and he could see no object the Caledonian Com-
pany bad in asking for this branch (especially as they
already effected a junction with the Newcastle and Carlisle
Railway at Carlisle), unless for the purpose of placing an
effectual lock upon the operations of the Dumfries Company.
Cross-examined by Mr. Cocmiums—Had no interest in
any Scotch lines, and was retained to go down to Scotland
to give evidence in favour of this line if he could do so.—
(Laughter.) He had before been retained for several com-
panies, and refused to give evidence in their favour. He
did not think it fair to state those lines. He had staid long
enough in the country traversed by_these lines to see that the
Dumfries was the superior line. He had been employed, and
was then employed, as acting and consulting engineer by dif-
ferent railways, not mere offshoots of the Manchester and Leeds
Railway. He had not been examined in all the different
Committees in this House last year. He had been examined
in many, as other engineers had been.
Re-examined by Mr. TALBOT.—He knew many cases in
which an opposition line had been half-ruined by the restric-
tions placed upon them by rival lines, which then pur-
chased them at half the cost of construction. The Bolton
and Preston was one in point. He had invariably met .dr.
Stephenson and Mr. Locke, Mr. Brunel and other eminent
engineers, in all the Committee-rooms that he had attended,
and they were retained in the same way that he was.
By Mr. ToLLEsrAcanr--He considered that it would be de-
cidedly for the interest of the public that this line should be
made to Brighton.
This closed the case for the promoters.
Mr. COCKBURN requested that he might not be desired to
open his case that evening, and ••
Tha Committee, therefore, adjourned till twelve o'clock
to-Morrow.

On Mr. ADAMS further cross-examination, it appeared that
this Rottergate-road was nothing more than a bridle road,
but he would construct a road from the spot where the
balance level fell to the highway. He would, however, have
another station at Byard's leap about a mile further on.
To Captain HARRIS, Mr. Borthwick replied that he thought
about three stations between Newark and Sleaford for pa:-
sengers beside three additional ones for goods. The other
side would have about the same number.

Mr. Smyth was re-examined on the point of the station
in the cutting, and after some further evidence the case of
the promoters was closed, and the Committee adjourned.

GROUP XXXIII.

This Committee met to-day in Room 28 ; the Hon. Eliot
Yorke in the chair.

LEEDS, DEWSBURY, AND MANCHESTER,
(EXTENSION TO waszpiELD, &c).

On the assembling of the Committee this morning the
case for this Bill, adjourned from yesterday, was proceeded
with. _ _ _

General evidence, as to the advantages the scheme would
confer on the district, was taken.
The Committee was occupied till its close with evidence
on the advantages the line would confer on the district, after
which they adjourned till to-morrow, at twelve o'clock.

GROUP XVI.
HERTFORD AND =TOBIN.

The Committee met at the usual hour. Evidence was
given as to the injury which would be caused to the proper-
ties of Mr. A. Smith, Mr. Adcock, and other landowners, by
the construction of the proposed line.
Mr. R. Stephenson, engineer to the Eastern Counties and
Midland Railways, was examined at considerable length in
favour of the Eastern Counties scheme. The construction of
this line by the Eastern Counties Company would enable the
Midland Company, in connexion with that line, to compete
with the Great Northern Railway for the traffic between the
north and the metropolis.
The cross-examination of Mr. Stephenson had not con-
cluded when the Committee adjourned till 12 tomorrow.

GROU r XV I 11.
CHELTENHAM AND OXIVAD.

-
The Committee, comprising the Earl of Lincoln, in the 1
chair, .Captain Jones, the Hon. Mr. Smythe, Mr. M. J.
O'Connell, an& Sir Walter James, met this morning at twelve
o'clock.
Mr. Ar.r.x.Axpirit, Q.C., opened at very considerable
length on behalf of the owners of property, insisting chiefly
on the loss and inconvenience which would be experienced
by the people of Cheltenham by the abstraction of the
water in the sand bed in the first place, and from the ul-
timate derangement of its flow. The Learned Gentleman
intimated, in the course of his observations, that he meant
to call witnesses. Among the witnesses which he should
cite would be a gentleman who was engaged by Sir R. Mur-
chison to edit a second edition of his geological works so far
as Cheltenham was concerned. There were a number of
other eminent geologists, he said, whom he should also call,
and concluded a long and elaborate speech with expressing
his conviction that their evidence would overpower that of
Mr. Brunel.
The Committee adjourned at four o'clock.

COMMITTEES on PRIVATE BILLS
(THIS DAY.)
LIVERPOOL WATER WORKS.

The Committee met this morning at twelve o'clock, Sir J.
Johnstone in the chair, when the points under discussion yes-
terdav were resumed, and much scientific evidence was given,
which it would be impossible to understand without , a full
detail of the data. The several parties seem deterthined to
carry their oppositions to extremity.

LUPE RI AL PARLIAMENT.
(THIS EVENING.)

HOUSE OF LORDS.

The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool-
sack at Five o'clock.
MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS.
Messengers from the Commons brought up certain
Bills.
GOVERNMENT PLAN OF EDUCATION.
Earl FITZWILLIAM presented a number of peti-
tions from Rotherham, York, Doncaster, Think, and
numerous other places, in favour of the Government
plan of education.
HEALTH OF TOWNS.
Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition, signed by
several medical gentlemen, in favour of the Health of
Towns Bill.
EDUCATION.
_ _

The Noble find LEARNED LORD presented several pe
titions fur and against the Government scheme of edu
cation.

IRISH POOR LAW.

The same LEARNED LORD presented a petition
from the vestry of Liverpool. The petitioners
stated that the number of Irish paupers had
of late very rapidly increased ; that 180,000 had
passed into Liverpool since the month of December last,
according to documents of authority on the subject ;
but these did not include in that number some 30,000
that had come over more recently. They further stated
that of the 180,000 paupers 105,000 had remained in
Liverpool in a state of perfect destitution, arid with
cases of very grievous disease among them, thus
fostering the seeds of a very wide contagion in the town.
They said that there had been not only a sudden increase
of the population, but a sudden increase of 180,000 in
300,000—an increase of near two-thirds—in the course
of four or five months. That affected the poor of the town
more than any other class in society; and that classprevious
to this, numbered 70,000 or 80,000. principally Irish Ro-
man Catholic paupers. The petitioners prayed that their
Lordships would pass an Irish poor-law to facilitate the
passing of Irish paupers from' England to Ireland, and
prevent the immigration of paupers from Ireland into
England. He (Lord Brougham) wished, however, to
guard his Noble Friend (Marquis of Lansdown) oppo-
site against supposing that the petition was in favour of
the present measure, for they further stated that they
did not think the measure passed by the House of Com-
mons would at all ameliorate the condition of Liverpool
—(Hear)--for the facilities of obtaining relief in England
were so great that Irish paupers would continue to flock
into England. The Noble and Learned Lord said the
opinion was founded on a vast number of documents
drawn out by en authority who was of opinion that an
Irish poor-law would increase the influx of paupers.
He, therefore, deemed it his duty to present the petition.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that the condi-
tion of the manufacturing districts had heen brought
under the consideration Of her Majesty's Government,
but he was not prepared to say what steps if any, would
be taken in reference to the subject.
After a few words from Lord ASHBURTON, which
was inaudible.
Lord MONTEAGLE was surprised that the subject
had not sooner been brought under consideration.
Lord BROUGHAM—Do they pray for a poor law?
Lord MONTEAGLE--Tkey do; but not such a one
as this.—(Hear, bear.)
The Earl of WICKLOW said that it was necessary
to remind the people of Liverpool that although
they suffered so much from Irish distress they ought to
be aware of the immense influx of wealth which this very
distress caused to ffow into that port ; if they compared
the poor-rates with the enormous sums which flowed into
their coffers, from every part of the world, for corn, they
would find the latter greatly to preponderate.
After a few words from the Earl of WESTMEATH,
Lord BROUGHAM said that his Noble Friend was
quite mistaken in the suppoition that he entertained,
for he meant to reserve himself for the discussion of
the poor-law. He quite agreed with his Noble Friend
behind him that the present depression of the money
market justified the most careful proceedings, and al-
though, perhaps, the worst might be passed in Ire-
land, there was yet much to be indured ; and he be-
lieved that the Government would do well to consider
this subject maturely before they took any definite
measures.

OUTDOOR RELIEF.
The Earl of SHREWSBURY presented several peti-
tions on out-door relief, and said that he trusted that if
outdoor relief were given it might be made compulsory.
TENURE OF LAND IN IRELAND.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented several
petitions praying for the abolition of villein tenure in
Ireland.

POOR-LAW (IRELAND) BILL.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that it was now
become his duty to move the second reading 9f the

THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY EVENING, APRIL 29, 1847

Poor-law Bill for Ireland, and in doing so he felt that
he was inviting their Lordships to follow him in a path I
beset with difficulties and with danger. He was aware
that in taking measures for the relief of a people
on whom a calamity had fallen with a degree
of unusual intenseness they had to provide, not
only for human improvidence, but against the
consequences -of an awful dispensation of Divine
Providence, and if they reached the post 'which they
sought to attain, they must reach it by a course beset by
rocks and encumbered by shoals, They had to raise
out of the depth- of - misery into which it
was plunged a country- which without manufactures,
except to a very small extent, was yet to
be elevated to a state of active industry, and to enrich a
people by the efforts of industry, which, to render it
effective, required a capital which they did not possess,
to enrich a people which, without the appliances of
either manufactures or capital, yet possessed a pope.
lation equal to that of countries which possessed both.
Permanent remedies were to be found in other re-
sources. The only ground upon which he had to
ask their Lordships' assent to this measure was, that
it was an important and indispensable palliative
of the evils existing in that country. Before
he stated to their Lordships what the Bill was, he would
state to them what it was not. The present Bill was
not a Bill conferring a general, indiscriminate, and per-
manent right to out- door relief in Ireland. If such
were the case, he should be the last person in the House
to propose to their Lordships the adoption of the
measure, because he believed that a measure of
that nature would be fatal to the property, and, above
all, to the character of the people of that country.—
(Hear, hear.) The immediate effect of such a measure
would be to diminish the number and amount of the
producers, already tOOO small, and to increase the num-
ber and amount of the consumers, already too large, and
it would tend also to destroy the relations which exist
in the country between landlord and tenant, and bring
the couutry into such a state that nothing but evil would
ensue. To meet the evils attendant upon such a
measare it would be necessary to have a power to compel
parties to produce, as the poor would by the operation
of such a measure, be otherwise left to share a
diminished produce. Such would, in his opinion, be the
inevitable result of such a measure, and he was, therefore,
most decidedly averse to the petition, the prayer of
which had just been read to the House, the effect of
which would be to .throw upon the landlords of
Ireland a still greater burden than they already
were compelled to bear. The object of that petition
was the most preposterous that had ever been sub-
mitted to the consideration ,of their Lordships.
Hut if their LoedshiPs would act wisely, they would con-
sider that Divine law which controlled and regulated all
affairs. The dictum of the pious French author was—
" Remember that it is man that proposes, that
it is God that disposes." If their Lord
ships neglected that Providence which governed the
course of society, they would certainly repent their
legislation, and regret the evils inflicted by their deci-
sion, evils irreparable.
LEFT SPEAKING.)

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four
o'clock.

NEW WRIT.
On the motion of Mr. TUFNELL, a new writ was
ordered for the county of Galway, in the room of the
late T. B. Martin, Esq.
REPORTS.
The reports on the following Bills were brought up
and agreed to :
Claridge's Patent Asphalte Company.
Colchester, Stour Valley, Sudbury, and Halstead
Railway (Extension from Lavenham to Bury St.
Edmund's).
Colchester, Stour Valley, Sudbury, and Halstead Rail-
way (Stour Navigation Purchase).
Manchester Markets.
Scottish Equitable Life Assurance Society.
Wolverhampton Gas.
Wolverhampton Rates.
LORDS' AMENDMENTS.
The Lords' Amendment to the Ipswich Gas Bill were
further considered and agreed to.
THIRD READINGS.
The Hartlepool West Harbour and Dock (Dock Ex-
tension) Bill was read a third time and passed.
On the motion of Mr. GREENE, it was agreed that
the order made on the 23d of February last, for re-
ferring the Leeds Waterworks Bill to the Committee of
Selection, be read and discharged.—That the Bill be
withdrawn. That leave be given to bring in a Bill "to
amend and enlarge the proviions of an Act passed in
the first year of the reign of her present Ma-
jesty, intituled, An Act for the better supply-
ing with water the town and neighbourhood of
Leeds, in the west riding of the county of York,' and
for more effectually supplying the said town and neigh-
bourhood with water." That Mr. William Beckett and
Mr. Aldam do prepare and bring it in. That the said
Bill be referred to the Examiners of Petitions, who
shall report whether any other standing orders apply to
this Bill than tho,e which were proved to have been com-
plied with before the Examiners upon the petition for leave
to bring in the Leeds Waterworks Bill; and that the Exa-
miners have leave to sit and proceed on Tuesday next.
That the order made on the 22d day of April last, re-
ferring the petition of the " Trent Navigation Company,"
against the Ambergate, Nottingham, and Boston and
Eastern Junction Railway (Alteration of Line and
Branches to Nottingham) Bill, to the Committee on the
Bill, be discharged. That the petition be withdrawn.
Oa the motion. of Mr. M. PHILIPS, it was ordered
that it be an instruction to the Committee on the Man-
chester Corporation Waterworks (power to sell to the
Manchester and Salford Waterworks Company), and the
Manchester Corporation Waterworks (power to pur-
chase the Manchester and Salford Waterworks)
that they have leave to consolidate the said Bills into
one Bill.