The Sun.
London, England, 1847-05-11 00:00:00

foe any tenant at will, or from
ycar
to r,
to l day of January, 1849, to deduct fromyea the rent
which he may be liable in respect of such property
heany amount whatever in respect of any rate which may
imposed at any period subsequent to the date of such
lease or agreement, or subsequent to such Ist day of Ja-
nearY, as the ease may be. That all the provisions of
the Act 6th and 7th Victoria, c. intituled, "An Act
for the further Amendment of an A-ct for the more effec-
tual Relief of the Destitute Peer in Ireland," for the
charge and recovery of rates upon property rated to a
tnaekteannntouaaly
Ipvpalue not exceeding 41, shall be deemed and
value v
to the like property rated to a net annual
apply not exceedinexceedingsl.; provided nevertheless,
and be it enacted, that no immediate lessor holding under
afternduct leaseftrho em a
orpassing
f t
oagreementsAe t
t shall
o, be made or entered into
be authorised to de-
rent by him payable under such lease or
ensu rent to y
his superior landlord, any amount whatever
respect of any
rate which may be imposed at any pe.
nod subsequent to the date of such lease or agreement.
Re said the time had now arrived when it became his
duty to submit for the adoption of their Lordships the
• amendment of which he had given notice. He was
quite sure that their Lordships, in proceeding with the
discussion, and with the amendment, of this most im-
portthant subject, would approach it without any reference
on eir or witout any influence on their minds
from the misapprehension and misrepresentation which
had been industriously circulated, not only within the
h'alls of that House, with regard to the object as well as
o th motive which had led him to propose the clause—
thaey would not consider whether the vote which he
asked them to come to, should confer upon them a mo-
mentary popul
they arity, or the reverse of popularity—that
uld not either be influenced by those insinua-
tions which had been very liberally circulated with re.
Lgarorddshtlipst,he probable political consequences of their
adoption of the motion which he had
It for their consideration and adoption. (Hear.)
~„It had been stated that his was a landlord's amendment.
'ow', he denied that altogether—(Cheers)—nay more,
he should be ashamed of himself if, connected as heowra_s
With property in Ireland, he submitted to their L d
arPs' consideration a clause intended or calculated, ex-
clusively or even rimarily, to benefit that class to which
-e himself belonged.—(Hear.) He should be yet more
shamed of himself, if that advantage were to be pur-
chased by any corresponding advantage upon any other
Class of scciety ; but his firm conviction was, that so far
from being a landlord's question, if it be anything it was
especially a labourer's, and not a landlord's question,—
(Loud cheers.) The object which he had in view was—
and -which he was sure all their Lordships had in view—
yeas how they could best conduct this perilous experi-
Silent, upon which they were called upon to enter, upon
Which they had decided ; and notwithstanding
all the objections, and all the difficulties,
and all the dangers, he thought, upon the
whole they had wisely decided to enter, but it was for
their consideration, and it was important that they
should all consider it calmly and deliberately, how to
conduct that experiment, so as to render the property
of Ireland, best able to bear the burden, which was
about to be thrown upon it ; and best able to bear this
burden of the employment of those labourers whom they
desired to rescue from a pressure upon the poor- rates.
e was not then deterred by any of the considerations
bWhich he had referred, from submitting to their
rdships an amendment, which, in his conscience, he
ieved was nesessary for the safe working of this
thitneasure. He was not even deterred front submitting
s amendment, by the rather unusual intimation con-
CCined in that extraordinary message from the House of
onuzaons, which was conveyed to their Lordships a few
nights
th
ego—(Cheers'and laughter)—by my Noble Friend e Noble Earl on 'the cross benches ; who, for the
arPurpose of influencing your Lordships' deliberations
med ecisions upon this measure, thought it necessary to
to your Lordships that he was in a position
In state from authority that Earl Lincoln had changed
Is mind upon the subject of an Irish poor- law.—(Cheers
and laughter.) Undoulatedly, recent events had made it
reer"ftPa convenient that when there was any general
change in the House of Commons en masse, early inti-
r?ation should be given to your Lordships of such a
!he flange, but he (Lord St 1 y with all the respect which
had for his Noble Friaennde on the cross benches, and it
ets 6
most unfeigned, and the other Noble Lord to whom
o referred, he hardly thought that such an intimation
was likel •
ehi to have an undue influence on your Lord-
:,catch P 3 deliberations, when his Noble Friend on the cross
es, stated that he was authorised, on authority, to
e Lincofor the information of your Lordships, that Lord
Was had changed his opinions.—(Laughter.) He
also farther deterred from bringing forward this
.stio
mind n, than by that which had much greater weight
Noble the expressed objection of my
e and Learned Friend (Lord Brougham) whom he
0.,! not see in his place, and also from the
dobtecetions
of the Noble Marquis (Lens-
that )h on the opposite benches. He repeated
object- e was not even deterred by their
_ions, but he thought the objections of his Noble
sad Learned Friend had reference more particularly to
to the
were fallaciously announced to be the objections
the measure. The Noble Marquis, in stating the
;;18t.?_IIP!)1 of his objections, stated what he (Lord Stanley)
kusA,deared a most dangerous principle to enunciate of
iOr(iie public man could be guilty, namely—that they
;theligir.elate, not upon principles, but upon impressions.
) This was a matter of too great consequence
effects 14 to consult impressions ; they must look to the
• , coPsiation asequences. They must see that their le
It would I"
,not obtain -momentary popularity, but that
enew.
them
to placing the country out of hazard, and
felt Convinced
to legislate safely for her defence ; and he
the .--""theed that, unless they adopted the principle of
itoP`lteendtnent he had intrusted to them, they could not
e that this experiment could be conducted without
most dangerous and cruel results. He asked them
'0 deal with Irish property as they would think it safe
to deal with English property.—(Loud cheers.) The
great body of them, perhaps, were unconnected with
Property in Ireland ,• they were called upon to legislate
With regard to that country, and he asked them,
before they decided, to place their hands upon
their hearts, and say whether they would dare
to propose, or whether they could carry into
effect a poor-law for England based upon the principles
,of this poor-law ?—(Renewed cheering)—and deprived
of the safeguard which they had in England against
abuse.—(ffear, hear.) Why, if they could not, with
vrhat conscience, with what show of reason, with what
hope of success, could they impose upon Ireland that
Which they knew they could not impose upon England ?
-44 all events they must show him that this experiment
was dangerous for England, and that it was safe for
Ireland, before they rejected his proposition ; they must
Point out the circumstances which rendered it less
Injurious to Ireland than to England. On them rested
the onus of proof, and not upon him. When
Ley asked him to cramp the relief to the poor
Ireland, he asked them, on the de, to show that that system of relief which wasother not
fsafe for England, was safe for Ireland, and would be ac-
nipanied by a safeguard. They must explain the dif-
renee. The measure which they were about to adopt
would, by the confession of every man, press heavily UDOU
the parishes and their object was—and his main object
*ll3--
zio„ to relieve too great a pressure upon the poor-rates;
Ivit'iY a straightened and niggardly parsimony, not by
bei:ll,c,irawing relief from those really destitute, not by
In ru_mg and grinding down relief to a minimum point
perrel'arnt.districts, but to supersede the necessity for pall.
--..(Lou'aeY furnishing the means for independent labour
1.,0rd5C cheers.) Now let him first recal to their
the r 2P.'s attention what was the principle which
with 7gtslature imposed on the landlords and tenants
existed to the payment of the rates? As the law
nivel the rate was in the first instance levied exclu-
,_ sy on the tenant. but when he paid his rent to his
~_4'n‘d,ltird he deducted not one-half of the amount of the
le but one-half of the poundage upon his rent, which
th7_eclual to one-half of the poundage charged upon
utlitr,„_tiaorjteable value of the land. Such at this period is the
ets
iirtire.deatle had heard many Noble Lords say that
(ori aadlordwas' after all, equally distributed between
end the tenant. It was no such thing.—
n es " " Hear, _ hear. ") It was notorious to every
or
_,„
~ el their Lordships conversant with the e state
Ip.la:eland, it was notorious that the rated value o. land
Invariably upon an average below the fair rent-value
- the laud. He believed.he should not much exaggerate
,VPhll he stated, that in some cases a piece of land was
„-Ilted at 201.; yet, without being overrated, it was worth
..°l.h tenant only paid rates for the 201., at
the still
i wast erated. A shilling rate was levied upon
:hb an t, and he paid one shilling upon each pound of
his ttramte 20/. ; but he was entitled to deduct Is. 2d.
.70R1 his rent to defray the expense of the rate, and he
deducted, not 205., but thirty sixpences, or 155., from
Ina landlord, out of the 20s. which he had been called
101 l to pay. (Hear.) The result was this, that one-fourth
the rate was borne by the tenant, and three-fourths
A borne by the landlord.—(Hear, hear.) He did think
"eat this was exaggerated; it was rather below than
ove the mark. The occupying tenant paid one-third,
ktici the landlord the remaining two-thirds.—(Hear,
bear.) Now, the relations between landlord and tenant
ei‘`,re far better understood here than in Ireland, and the
eiln4ition of the tenant was eminently expensive in
leand to what it was in Ireland. Farmers, for in-
svere larger here than in Ireland. He should be
$04411t to rest the whole question on this ground.
Itch, asked those who considered the poor-law
themitageous in England, what would be the condition,
Far social and moral condition of a parish, in which the
oe "'et' should have the power to levy rates, two-thirds
(Loade rates having to be paid by the landlords?—
iret ehe?rs.) He did not ask them what they thought
att dbe the effect upon the landed property—that was
tregnPortant question ; but it was not the only one of
gWeeld ; and he asked them what they thought
hat be the social condition of the labourer ?—(Hear.)
the
i'w°llld be their state—what would be the effect of
ttri h 71-gnitude or diminution of pauperism in that
ue asked them what inducement there would
iel.t.!_tho farmer to employ additional hands and to make
„_llrovetuents
ttitian'w, ohuill.tdthhaat
'Mee, . upon his holdings if he had not the alter-
, as in England that unless he employed them
have
hteo
didi) anyo tmust be
for their support. , the
comply, then they
I,9Ported b the parish, out of rates le %, ied incurectly trom
attempted- e was certain that if in England they
iticanit.7 was
such a measure, that it would
ot that t°
the
destruction of the moral and social
oNeOu'eutnlabour, to tphaerii
snh:retaosetnhoet
odneslytroufcttihoen
rates,ot in dh en -t
"inane all exerti
Ithe number of
knd Paupers ; that it would absolutely,annr-
ons at the improvement of that parish,
phut Would be overwhelmed by a flood of universal
shi erisat Was there a man among their Lord-
PS who
insult
of such would deny that that would be the probable
a
th measure in England? Was there a
%.14„,t-on b
g ell' Lordships prepared to follow up this
... i
otlajad? Y assenting to a similar measure for
go? If
tAhnd upon what ground did they refuse to
This • eY did not, the farmers in England might
zair _ Is what the farmers in Ireland have obtained
CV '1%1,a We not to be placed in a similar position?"
• ey
4auld 3aY that if the landlords in Ireland were

~.~ r~Kif~''9.