The Sun.
London, England, 1847-01-26 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON,_ TUESDAY EVENING, JANUARY 26, IM7.

information on this point. and when he received it, he
should lay it before the House.
THE CHANNEL SQUADRON.
Sir C. NAPIER gave notice of his intention tomor-
row to ask the Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary to the
Admiralty (Mr. Ward), whether it was the intention of
the Goveremcat to employ any part of the Channel
squadron t, import corn into this country on account of
merchants ?

SHIPPING INTEREST.
Mr. BARCLAY presented a petition from a number
of owners of ships in Sunderland, representing the pro-
perty of 1,200 tons of shipping at Sunderland.
ORDERS OF THE DAY.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the postponement of
the orders of the day till the notices of motion were dis-
posed of.—The motion was adopted.
THE SOLDIERY IN INDIA.
Dr. BOWRING rose to make an inquiry respecting
the conduct of the British army in India, of which
notice had been given at the latter end of last session,
and which had been repeated on the first day of the
present, to his Hon. Friend the Secretary at War.
It referred to the reports of the hanging and murder-
ing by the British army in India, and originated in
consequence of a letter written by a soldier of the Both
Regiment, which was inserted in a local paper of con
siderable circulation, the Stamford Mercury. This state
ment was reprinted by a well-known body—the Peace
Society. There was no doubt of the authenticity of the
letter, and that it had been written by a soldier in the
80th Regiment. It bore the post mark, and there was,
therefore, also no doubt but that it was put in in India,
and was countersigned by the major. This member of
the British army goes into the most minute details, and
gives a full account of the atrocities of the British army,
in which he says he himself took part. No ansffer had
yet been given to the question, and in now calling
upon his Hon. Friend (Mr. Fox Mamie) for as
explanation, he thought it but right to state
that the Society of Friends had made every in-
quiry into the circumstances reported in this statement.
The Hon. FOX MAULE wished to exonerate the
gentlemen to whom allusion had been made from any
blame. There was no doubt they had acted on a letter
from a private named Runn. An inquiry was
made on the subject, an investigation had been set on
foot, and he held a report iu his hand from which it
appeared that Runn denied having written that letter,
and a statement to that effect had been forward to
Lord Gough.
M. HENLEY wished to ask the Chancellor of the
Exchequer whether the regulation with respect to sugar
was to apply to all persons brewing.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER pro-
posed to take off restrictions from all persons who wero
engaged in brewing.
EXEMPTION FROM COMMITTEES.
The usual motions were then put, that the members
of the Government should be exempted from attendance
on the Committees of the House.
Sir CHARLES NAPIER said he wished to be ex-
empted from the duty of Committees, he being over
sixty years of age.—(Laughter.)

THE STATE OF IRELAND.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Sir, I feel that I never had
so much need of the indulgence of the lelouse as I have
on the present occasion, but I feel, at the same time,
that I never had so little need to ask that indul-
gence. I feel sure that this House, from the
temper which it has already displayed ; from
the sense which it has manifested of the calamity that
has occurred, and I fear calamities still impending; from
the sense of the danger that there would be from inter-
posing any party feeling in the discussion of this sub
ject ; from the kindly clispoeitien with which I have been
already received by the House,—l feel sure, I say,
that on this occasion I need not ask for any such indul-
gence, but that it will be voluntarily bestowed upon me.
—(Cheers.) Sir, in considering the state of Ireland, I
will first proceed with laying down what is the order
in which I wish to discuss the subject. In the first
place, I propose to state generally the condi-
tion of those parts of the United Kingdom
in which this calamity has occurred ; secondly, to make
a general statement of what has occurred during the
recess of Parliament ; what has been dune in conse-
quence of Acts of Parliament ; how far those measures
have succeeded ; how far I think that they have been
deficient, and then to state a hat we will proceed to do
for the general emergency.—(Hear, hear.) After having
made that statement, I shall ask the attention of the House
while I proceed to invite them to some consideration of
other measures which are calculated, in the opinion of
her Majesty's Government to improve the state of Ireland,
and to lay the foundation for her permanent welfare and
tranquillity. I shall then take the liberty of mentioning
some other subjects which, although they have been
under consideration, have not received a full discussion.
And we propose, in conclusion, to ask the authority of
the House for the introduction of two Bills ; by one
of these Bills we propose to make valid certain Acts
one under the authority of the Lord-Lieutenant of Ire-
land, and communicated in a letter to my Right Hon.
Friend who sits near me (Mr. Labouchere). The second
Bill is for the purpose of approving the present estimates
in regard to Ireland, in pursuance of the Treasury mi-
nute of the Ist of December last.—(Hear, hear.) In
proceeding to consider the present condition of that
country, I think it will be the safest course for me to
use guarded and careful information respecting the cala-
mity which has overtaken Ireland, and for that purpose
I propose to take the results of the Commission of In-
quiry into the Poor-law, and to ask the House to infer
how great that calamity has been—representing an
almost total failure of the potato crop. Sir, in the first
report of that Poor-law Inquiry Commission, composed
of gent'emen of considerable experience and autho-
rity an Irish affairs, it is represented that the great
proportion of the population is continually fluctuating
between the condition of paupers and independent la-
bourers.—(Hear, hear.) Scarcely one class of the
working population are permanently beyond the condi-
tion of pauperism. It is stated further that there are
few small resident gentry; that the clergy and laity exhi-
bit much variance with each other, and that these
again are at issue with the labouring population.
This state of feeling has occasioned great difficulty in
giving effect to the measures already passed to improve
the condition of Ireland, both in the construction and
working of the parochial boards and other bodies or-
ganised for that purpose. In the third report
of the same Commission, which, with the others,
go to form the general report of the Commissioners,
the following facts are given ; —lt appears that in Great
Britain agriculture constitutes one-fourth of the business
of the people, whereas in Ireland it forms two-thirds.
In 1831 the number of persons engaged in agriculture in
Great Britain was 1,651,000; in Ireland it was 1,131,715.
At the same time while Great Britain had 34,360,000
acres in cultivation, Ireland had but 14,600,000.—(11ear,
hear.) Ireland had therefore, in proportion to its extent,
five agricultural labourers for Great Britain's two.
At the same time, while in Ireland the wages of the
labourer was from 6d. to 9d. a day, the average was
from 2s. to 2s. 6J. a week. (The Noble Lord
gave some other items in addition to these, as further
illustrative of the relative position of the two countries
in regard to agriculture, but he react them in such a low
and hurried tone as to be perfectly inaudible in the gallery.)
A great portion of them were not sufficiently provided
at any time with the commonest necessaries of life.
Their habitations were wretched hovels, in which se-
veral families slept upon straw, covered sometimes with
a blanket, sometimes without even that protection.
Their food was dry bread, and some of them were
obliged to stint themselves to one spare meal a-day, and
instances had been known of persons, driven by hunger,
being compelled to seek sustenance from wild roots.
Their employment was scarce and uncertain, some goinc,
in search of employment to Great Britain during the
harvest time, some going on a similar errand in Ireland,
and many having only casual resources to fly to for the
support of their children. Such, therefore, Sir,
is the description given by the most undoubted autho-
rities of the state of th e labouring classes in Ireland.
The state of Ireland may bo imagined, when I say that
those who had not sufficient food are those who are best
off, and yet they had scarcely enough, and those who
had been before on the brink of famine, have perhaps
been unable to resist the calamity. Such has been,
unfortunately, the case during the present year,
and during the visitation of a calamity which is, per-
haps, almost without a parallel, because it occurs in a
very large population—a population of eight millions,
which has gradually increased to that amount, while the
famine is such as has not been known in modern times.
—(Hear, hear.) I should say it is Eke a famine of the
thirteenth century, so destructive and universal are
its effects. Such, Sir, being the general nature
of this case, I will state what was the course adopted
during the past year, from the sitting of Parliament to
the present time. When Parliament met last year it
was apprehended that the potato crop, having been
much injured, there was about to be a great scarcity in,
Ireland. That apprehension was not fully justi-
fied by the event.—(hear.) It was impossible,
as I think, for any man exactly to see what the
extent of the misfortune would be ; but I also think,
that having had a very plentiful crop of potatoes in the
previous year, although there was a great quantity of
the potato much injured, yet the quantity of food in
Ireland was not very deficient.—(Hear.) However,
Parliament took means very early in the session
for the supply of food for the destitute, by means of giving
work on roads and public works. It was enacted by
Parliament that at the request of the sessions in a barony,
parties should be empowered to advance money from
the Treasury in loans for the execution of these works.
Under this law the Government, on the 31st of August,
voted a sum of 1,373,0001. for the relief of distress, by
the creation of public works. There were presentments
made to the amount of 476,0001. for these works,
and out of this sum 290,0001. was actually expended,
Before the end of the last session of Parliament, on the
recommendation of the present Government, Parliament
passed a further Act, by which, on the ono hand, the
Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland was permitted to order
presentment sessions, and, on the other hand, in
order to check an extravagant expenditure, it was de-
termined that these sums should only be granted by
way of loan, and the money was to be repaid
to the Treasury. Sir, very soon after the session of
parliatnew, lino closed tiler!: was a great desire evinced,
in many parts of Ireland, to have presentment sessions,
in order that public works begun, but more especially
those public works which had already been sanctioned
by Parliament, might be proceeded with. Some objec-
ticns were urged, that these works would be better
deferred then, because there would be a great demand
for labour, inasmuch as the harvest was coming in, and
therefore it would be advisable to defer the construction
of the works at that time. Be, cperation oY the law
wile, by tile eleusaud uf LOV Nvt.sAtS,, 11131iL exteethely ditii •
cult to the Board of Works, notwithstanding they
wore reinforced by the addition of ten gentlemen, in

------ -
every way competent to its duties. After
these works were commenced great complaints
were received from the proprietors of land and country
gentlemen in Ireland, that the works had been found
quite useless, end that, especially, the roads which had
been begun were not wanted. Ide not attach any great
force to these objections, the object being to afford
relief by providing a certain amount of labour, which
would show that industry was not entirely abandoned ;
and the productive nature of the work was a matter of
secondary importance, as the object we had in view
was the preservation of the people in the first place
from loss of life, by providing labour, and not by
en ill-judged and indiscriminate charity. The poor rates
in the last five years had increased from 4,000,0001. to
5,000,0001., being an increase of a million and upwards;
and I do not believe from the mode in which that mil-
lion had been expended that any great amount of
eroductive labour has been engaged, but that
that sum has been employed in the partial
and inefficient relief of local distress.—(Hear.)
I do not, therefore, attach any great value to the ob-
jections thus made, but, at the same time, as it was most
desirable to obtain the co-operation of the landed gentry
of Ireland, and as it was desirable, if possible, to have
the works of a productive kind, the Lord-Lieutenant
of Ireland, with the consent of the Cabinet, after the
case having been fully represented to them, sane
tinned a plan by which the sessions were allowed to
present for productive works instead of works of an
unproductive nature. This plan had not long been
adopted before a further desire was expressed for a town
land division, and the present :tion of works for such
town lands. These town lands are of various dimen-
sions, some of them very small, not more than 100
acres; the general average of the whole town lands do
not, however, contain more than 350 acres. The ques-
tion for her Majesty's Government to consider was,
whether it would be possible to accede to this request, It
was quite obvious that if it were permitted to every per-
son, who was the proprietor or occupier of town lands,
only to make himself responsible for his own town land,
there would be no general interest in the welfare of the
community, or in providing for the destitute; and more
especially, the possessors of grazing laud, or lands from
which clearances had been effected, would have only some
two or three destitute persons to provide for; while
hundreds of others, who were possessing a demesne in
town lands would contribute more than their full
share. In the opinion of the Lord-Lieutenant, and
also of all persons who had paid any attention
to the subject, it was thought that this plan
could not be beneficially adopted. But, Sir, it was said
that, although that plan could:not be adopted, still there
was another scheme which might be adopted, and one
which would prevent the evil of those who were ready to
employ labourers, and to improve their estates, from
being obliged to maintain the tenants and labourers of
those who neglected their occupations and their duties.
The plan was one for allowing the town-land division to
take place, but obliging the proprietor and occupiers of
town-lands to employ a certain number of destitute, so as
to spend the whole of the amount of the assessment
laid upon the barony. Upon this subject Ido not know
that anything butter can be said upon this plan than an
observation made upon it in a public letter written by
Air. Smith O'Brien, ALP., in a letter to the proprietors of
a public journal. He said that he thought this plan
was much better than the one in actual- operation.
(The Noble Lord then read the opinion to which ho re-
ferred. It supposed a district of a county belonging to
two proprietors in which 100 persona resided, one of
who employed fifty_ independent labourers, whilst the
other did not ; therefore, in order to get rid of the main-
tenance of the other fifty, who would. thus be thrown
for support upon the rates, he would be compelled to
discharge his workmen ; thus one hundred persons
would be thrown upon the land for support,
as pauper; : so that if he were compelled to employ
them in that capacity, they would not be subject to his
own control, and would not perform his labour in so
efficient a manner as the independent labourer. They
would be paid out of the poor rates, to which he would
only be called upon to contribute his share.
This was done previous to the passing of the Poor-
law in 1831, but was found to produce bad effects upon
the population—(Hear, hear)—paralyzing individual
enterprise, and having, generally, an injurious
operation. Now I conceive that these observations
of the Honourable Member for Limerick are pefectly
justifiable. Our experience in England has proved
that the system works as he has described. The la-
buorers sent by me parish to labour occasionally on a
farm are unlike men who labour on their oen account;
and, besides, they were found improvident men, and
every farmer conversant with the system would say that
he would rather give 103. a week to a labourer
selected by himself, than ss. for one of those useless
men sent by the parish.—(Hear.) I third:, therefore, that
the plans proposed in order to remedy the evil of having
so many pesons engaged in inoperative labour in Ireland
were full of danger. I admit, and will presently state,
the great evils of the present system, but I think
we should incur still greater danger, if, with the
view of remedying those evils, we had done that
which we conceive one of the most pernicious things that
could be desired, if we had confounded labour with the
relief of the poor— (Hear)—as by tanking that relief some-
what more efficient, we should have permanently injured
this great and important class to which those inde-
pendent labourers belonged.—(Cheers.) Sir, the land-
owners and proprietors who were in favour of
this alteration found great practical difficulty in
putting into effeet the instructions of the Lord-
Lieutenant. They found that when they came to
an electoral district, and found two persons ready to
adopt the system of reproductive works, that three or four
utterly refused to become responsible, or to have any money
advanced by the Government for that purpose. They
found, therefore, that their operations, when so encum-
bered, were useless. This did not, however, though a
serious difficulty, diminish their exertions ; but their
operations, though very great and extensive, have not
led to such a complete substitute as the system of
establishing public works was generally supposed.
But, Sir, as the plan went on the number of the dis-
tressed persons increased, and with the number of the
distressed the difficulties of providing employment for
such a number also increased. I should say, in
the present place, that as the business of the
Board of Works went on the officers found
that they had also great difficulty of obtaining
trustworthy and efficient persons to act under them. It
was found, in the first place, that the labourers were
frequently unwilling to undertake the tasks allotted to
them. At length this difficulty pressed itself upon
those engaged to such an extent that the belief pre-
vailed that it was impossible for any public board
to fully discharge its duties and to carry out
the works. The number on the establishment
has been gradually increasing. I will not read their
names, but the total number of persons employed as
officials under this board is, at the present moment,
11,587 ; the number of superintendents is 185 ; the
amount expended for the payment of all in the debt
contracted is 2,410,366/. The number of labourers has
increased from 30,135 in September last to 440,687
in December. In the last week's account they were
stated at more than 480,000; and, at the present time, I
do not doubt but that the number amounts to half a
million. Ido not doubt but that great ability must be
engaged in the employment of this number of persons.
—(Hear, hear.) It is calculated that five persons gain
subsistence for every person that is employed. I
cannot say that that statement is correct ; but, taking
it at four persons, there will be upwards of
two millions of people supported by this plan.
The expense at the same time must be enormous, and
from an estimate I have here drawn :up it appears
that the expense in the first week of December
was 140,0001, the second 156,0001., the third
158,0001., and the fourth 154,000/. So far
as we are acquainted with the past three weeks,
of January, the expense of the first week was 157.000 L;
on the 9th January it was 156,000/. ; and, on the 16th,
172,000/.;—making an amount of 585,0001. for
the month of December, and 485,0001. for the
first three weeks of January, and it is calculated
that the expense of the whole of this month will be
between 700,0001. and 800,0001. It is impossible
that this expenditure could have taken place without
great concomitant evils attending it. Thero must be
great evils under any circumstances, hut there have been
peculiar evils attending it, arising out of the present
state of Ireland. For instance, there has been a diffi-
culty in procuring sufficient labour for the unemployed.
Persons who have travelled through the country con-
tinually
idling
along
hor,o
nealai reported ootdtrhbhjteteeehdcepptthat.suoethmihnri
ai
teue:t
pchtrhoaeaorrnrsat eekdsds
swilwere:settoadarsnkkt
talkinghel aoeewruwoaeri
rtlsi
kobts
mgloti
oadawGti
dbehaoesees
Government
jes: labourersfnurattnbahrisubstituted
ineideiidtnuiuloctti
treleotldgdo..
erable difficulties, however, were experienced in af-
of the system, but the Lord-Lieutenant remained
tneftfil. ehoure:mctnwti work,
determinationugdrn
for idleness. Many evils sprung up out of this system;
ftohratthhaodseevmeernbewenhopabidecainm
the
h e m a r accustomedket.
Many
to a n task
them work
earned
earned
fconsiderablyrom
is.
4. to
more wages
es
6.
than any money wages
and sometimes more. The result was, ttoherl.
eswalOad.a,
strong
works,
foundobtain
a demploymentdifficulty
procuring
itnhgo publiclabour
to till their land at any sum. I lament to say, however,
that this evil was produced by the conduct of the farmers
themselves, for many of them who held twenty, thirty,
fifty, and even sixty-eight acres of land, emoved
their sons and labourers from their usual occupation,
of tillage to place them upon these public works, and
enable themselves to receive the increased pay which
that description of employment afforded over
what could be earned at husbandry. I will
now read part of a letter from Colonel Jones to
Mr. Trevelyan, dated the 19th of January last:—" We
are pressed by our officers for instructions as to how
they are to act ; those which they have received
to regulate their conduct aro no longer applicable
were held
helidt
in the altered state of things. They are
Ibiepsaiesgtehdo fsotruoriebliiieof,ga.bnidociLthineyitsrewfuaysc:d ilt,nthmey opinioner
y
give food, than to be paying away
wouldwmToohuneledpyo,bowerhbitehtoeprlet
be considered as a useless expenditure.
Their bodily strength is gone, and .
re disabled from
texecuting e t
notas. c task-work.
ov.r,
poorer
left incomplete." Sir, the
r was, that
lette
previously to the receipt of this
to exert themselves ; the wooprikasioNhellolf consequently,
the
G,o N.
e r Ilm ebnet
faction and the want of food had so generally
scheme
that it was desirable to attempt some temporary
the system had become so vast, and the
increased,
that
mitigated, and with so vast an expenditure
Sir,itmoney
Is
more relief might bo administered.
by which some of the evils which now meet us might
thethat opitinionwillof
bathe
desirable
ers
tooff
hoerrm
relief committees, which committees shall be empowered
to receive subscriptions, to levy rates, and to receive.
durations from tt:f. G'ovf•rnine!nt ; awl that by th
'"
Mdaijsetsrtiyi district
a they should be enabled to purchase food,
_
to establish soup depots, or that they should,
as far as they were able, distribute relief,

to the famishing applicants, and that they should not
require this indispensable test of work—(Hear, hear)—
hut that a labouring man should be allowed to work
upon his own plot of ground or on the farmer's, and thus
his labour would tend to benefit the approaching harvest.
and perhaps, by such an arrangement, he might be en-
abled to earn some small trifle in addition to the relief
afforded him by the committee. After wo had considered
this scheme, I communicated it to the Lord-Lieu-
tenant of Ireland. We have consulteeL the various
officers of the Beard of Works and the Commis-
sariat Department, they are prepared to consider
it favourably, and sve
.. will endeavour, by a
series of preparatory measures, and next by
a Bill, to carry into effect the arrangement.
We propose that these arrangements shall be carriel
out under the superintendence of a gentleman who has
had extensive experience of public works. The person
to whom I allude is Sir John Burgoyne—(Cheers)—
at the present time the Inspector-General of forti-
cations in this country.— (Hear.) I sent for him the
other dey for the first time, and having explained to
him what we wanted, he said he would obtain leave of
absence from his preseet duties, and instead of devoting
the time to relaxation he would consider it his duty to
devote it to the services of the country, and that he
would be ready to go to Ireland at any time when
called on.--(Loud cheers.) That gentleman will be in
communication with the Lord-Lieutenant, and will co-
operate or not, as he thinks best, with the Board
of Works, with the Commissioners of the Poor-
law. with the heads of the constabulary force,
and with any other parties in Ireland that
may be calculated to assist him.—(Hear, hear.) The
question aidh regard to proposing this measure as one
of immediate relief, and for the more efficiently supplying
the people with food who are in want, will be treated in
connexion with what has been done already. While
every thing will he done to give speedy effect to the
operation of this measure ; at the same time, care will
be taken, and the Lord-Lieutenant will see to it, that its
substitution for the system of public works already in
operation, shall be easy of transition. There will
be no rude dismissal of the people at once, but when all
the arrangements of the present scheme are made, then
no further presentments shall take place, or new public
works will be commenced.—( Hear.) The Lord-Lieutenant
states that in regard to the roads already commenced,
if they are abandoned, they will be left in a most
miserable state ; he, therefore, suggests that these
shall, at least, be finished. These works will,
therefore, be allowed to go to completion.
With respect to this advance a condition hae been made;
that the whole of it should not be a burden to Ireland.
I think that the misfortune was so severe that, passing
by the remote causes of it, we ought not to throw the
full burden of it on the possessors of property in Ireland.
It would be right that the whole of tho burden should
not remain on Irish property. I should, therefore, pro-
pose, on some future day, that an arrangement should
be made by Parliament, by
ritildhieteloach
year when the instalment became due, one half of that
instalment should be paid and the other half should be
remitted, taking care that the whole debt should be
kept up until the half is paid; but when the half was
paid the remainder should be remitted, and this provid-
in.? that one half of the whole charge shall be refunded.
I should state, with regard to the financial part of the.
question—with regard to the sums hitherto issued,
that they have been issued out of the balance in the
Exchequer charged on the Consolidated Fund, but
it neither has been, nor is it now in contemplation to
make any new issue of Exchequer-bills iu order to meet
this demand But, however, it must be considered
when we are making these propositions to Parliament,
that it is placing a very considerable burden upon the
finances of the country—(Hear, hear)—and that in
placing that burden on the finances of this country I do
feel myself disabled from making some propositions
which I should be called upon to make ; and all
of them entailing expense, but with the very heavy
burden arising from the destitution in the present
year, it would be hardly fair for the people
of this country, to propose them ; because,
whether it is stated that the burden is borne
by the Consolidated Fund, or whether the burden be
borne by the imperial Treasury and the general finances,
it must always be recollected that these sums are not to
be granted by Parliament or the Government without the
most serious consideration, for they are all sums derived
from the payment of the people of this country, and who
epeatlyeei.t on
itsliferiormsothapai
stohtetrireestlisgadre,rivaendd
ththeesiurrpteluasabnyd
which we are enabled to come to the assistance of Ire-
land. The people are willing, as I think, to do all that
is liberal in this respect. We must always consider what
is meet and just to the people of this country. We must
consider the difficulty and privation, and by what hard
labour they earned these sums.—(Loud cries of " Hear,
hear.) As to the other part of this subject which I men-
tioned, namely, the advances made under authority of
the Lord Lieutenant's order, and of the letter of my Right
Hen. Friend (Mr. Labouchere),—the advances having
been made to persons who really wish to assist in carrying
this measure into effect, and to effect improvements, mak-
ing their own estates liable,—we do think it necessary that
the terms of the Treasury minute of the Ist of December
should be applied to those who have accepted advances
under Mr. Labouchere's letter, and that instead of re-
quiring repayment iu 10 years a period of 22 years shall
be taken ; that the provisions for carrying this proposal
into effect should be in term) of the Drainage Act of last
year; and that in regard to its beneficial employment the
whole of that money will be expected to be paid as under
that Act.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, I have now stated
what I think we can do for the present relief 1
of the distress in Ireland. There is, how-
ever, another question, to which I must confess some-
what of hesitation in making the proposition I intend to
do to the House, but yet, on the whole, we think we are
right in recommending- to Parliament that
we should bo enabled to grant a sum of
530,e,0a0r,01.t„hattc
isb oby repaidthe 3 s before
t of
December, 1847, to enable the proprietors to pur-
chasethe Government should make those advanlcet.,
thema money,
noto the° x epereedsjean4t
small tenant-farmers themselves, becauhsee
Government,
seed.—(!logy, hear.) Ido not mesainntok thattthiiee
principle is exceedingly dangerous that t
a the
should an occasion come like the
that if these advances were made to the proprietorshi,
it
the character of a lender, but
would
measure would not be fraught with harm, w 1 ,
Sir, in
be found beneficial to the country.—(Cheers.) Sir,
same
stating these measures to the House, I wish, this assumethink
pect, to beagle, by any
time, to declare that we cannot expect,
measures of Government, or
°it
measures which Parliament may sanction,
Ipreseinsto,
f
we labour.—(Hear, hear.) It is not in the pc:
man to do away with the effect of such a calamity.
impose on
or prevent, the effect of this awful vieiti:tniodnv.t.ettar',:diolrirn:avteharci'cx'oyl
Nor, Sir, should I think that any one would
US so impossible a task as to make so presump-
tuousrea an attempt, were it not that I have a
iiihy
theon one
Marquis
q ot
it the newspapers
of
sl
iSligo
and mr a. nGeeargdderess
most respectable individuals, both per3ens well worthy
of deference on the part of their poorer country-
men. It is stated in the newspapers that they
have travelled through twenty-seven counties
in order to make their propositions popular.to
" We, therefore, earnestly entreat you," they say'
next,
meet us at Castlebar, at eleven o'clock on Mondayr.,,.
t.s
quietly, peaceably, and like men worthy of tliiie i n
Podia-
Moore, signedbth
you mean to demand, then and there to
mont to take such steps as may ensurepZi.
and the
country during the famine which surrounds „
I own,
constant, and cheap supply of food to the people
famine which is impending over the country.
that in a
Sir, that I am astonisheel—(Loud cheers)
men o
time of famine men of educatiorld
tell them,
ought to love their country—should
were
were
that immediate,
itahtets,
in the language of this address, .
ta on demand
immediate,
constant,l)a rl Parliament eanntd "eshteeapps
(Cheers.) Why, Sir, that is a task
whiheers.) They
possible for us to perform.---(Loud„ 'rho visitation
should tell their countrymen,
a task made
under which we are suffering is h t is a
move—t a
impossible for man to
ra
form."—(Cheers).
task beyond all human power to per
h 5t
to lighten
--somevr a
miseries of the people—(Cheers) awahp.i
epc
hhi y
it
ot
faiy,s, 0
cod. incurs
po,_s.
ratestet
ooapresentne naoomi
tca
certain
rbottruoadti een hr containsas t
udto
pe amen.nro degree,
5 enableo
. them,
masted .
the dreadful calamity—in some measure t 0)
But they
of the people of this country.--; tjn
All we can do is in some mode or othoer :on
Sir, what sur-
) nouncement that it
• -me more oven than this an .
the people of the
prises
that at Castlebar, wbete slaovreiaate
parth
are requested to meet, it does
c tohe
e levyrs
.)
surrounding counfrsyan
msfaoumhsit
an
penpoeinnt
stoi mpagleinnetyt.lta(t
cwheee.cra:
union workhouse ; that union
happen that thereldi
happy tendencyhmaeis :110;1; ande fceoru themnt counter-cheers.
r-
contain 600 inmates, but it at
workhouse shouted
more than 130, the doors being
f other ersons, tho
the admission otu(Bruuts,carcity and even
closed against
oi( sth
Cheerse r s sPersonsihl in want of food
and I cannot but
tendency—an us tale-
inwgho hav n b which f • might ve
_an, y amine be,
not furnished the 111
bteeuenadho something, thepracti-
cability"
ot
enablepaibdethofusellyrates—
—are hom we
to others to do for them some
gAumar(dmiagntshsoasye
caoplyidered, o to confer
he either visionaryy or i n s
most
in this proposal
which I have more than once
(Loud cheersin).2Of
thosement
or
rates due,thfaartaniitthing,
the parliame vaguer remarked—to m a rkaeaoddf—i impossiblets.ohirceh
some benefit which
Bible, while the plain prahe sustenancethe immediate
of the starving
children in immediate neigh-
men, women, and , ted and unh rl
perform those
next
bourhood is left neglected
. and the Parliament
mayctical dut
that while
therefore,' while we at-
temptmust, in the
make promises yre
first place, refuse to ma
Swilriichl awni.ethe performance of
will be performed, because I know
our
,ani
of
power; and,
expect those who have
Ireland,rs.to
payingdpluatciees,,
waa
ntlelhd oemttthhhoul rates
assist
lufoottut
Governmentrhhspaeiot)ni
ilt onhcetarhlee dutiesa
arduousnepp°vee errfrfooyrr
in 9 n y ,
—(Cheers.) Sir,
am quite sure that by
when I say that we exmnip
many those duties
instances of resident pro-
prietors in Ireland who have been most ready with their
money, their time, and with their attendance, in
endeavouring to provide for their destitute tenants.—
(Cries of "Hear, hear.") Sir, I proceed then
to another part of this subject, and I trust
the House will give me their attention while I ask them
to follow the proposal of other measures whichm
we think may be beneficial not only now,
permanently beneficial to Ireland. w, v "
tho first place, that we think althougha" in
may have been unhappily directed from the we
:fier.letimihe'ae' Yet' iflbt'eh%PgGrieveseev:ieinnneeltthhernnet'eliwwlattey. hst,h'sBiiint;knd
observance
these measures, yet
of general principles weiactniht
I do think that we should observe thesegeneralprinciples
. ,
regard
thatl.rn .
thatt' o t s
interference
1 ll et
e'
that those three ways ought, as far as possible,
and
call
upon
thGhtooovheparany

to be kept separate and distinct, namely—that
Government, with the support and sanction of
Parliament, may grant assistance to individuals—
to proprietors--!'or the purpose of improving their
private property, to assist in public works, by malsieg
loans, or partly by grants for public works which are of
evident public utility; and, thirdly, to enact that relief
should be given by law to the destitute.—(Cheers.)
I think these three modes ought to be kept
as far distinct as pcssibe —that is ti say, that when
von advance money to a private individual, for the
purpose of improving his property, that you
should take security so far as this, that it is for that
purpose, and not to be spent in extravagance,
or for any other purpose—(Cheers)— but laid out simply
for the purpose for which it is granted, but that beyond
that you should interfere as little as possible with
the use of that money.—(Hear, hear.) That, for
instance, you should interefere as little as possible
in compelling him to employ a certain class of labourers,
and to conduct the works in a certain menner, whica,
Government may lay down as to the best manner in
which they could be performed, or in any other way,
which would prevent him from having the free use
of the loan advanced by the Government.—(Hear.)
Now, Sir, such is the principle of the measure of which
lam about to speak. It, is a measure founded on the
various Acts which have preceded it, the chief of which
is the Drainage Act of het session, and which came into
operation on the Ist of December. According to this
Act, and the minute of it which appears on the
book, it is proposed that certain assistance
shall be given for the improvement of estates
and for the reclaimation of waste lands, where such
improvement of the value shall prove no detriment to
the legal heirs, and that the advances for such improve-
ment shall be provided cut of the public funds. The
usual mode has been to grant these advances from the
Treasury, on an interest of five per cent. In the
Drainage Act of last year, three-and-a-half per cent.
was charged, making, with the other expenses, 6i per
cent., to be retained for twenty-two years, when the '
sum given be repaid. I propose an advance on the
terms of the Drainage Act, and to extend the term for
the improvement I have mentioned. In doing this, 1
must say that the Noble Lord opposite is in no way
responsible for the deficiency which has been experienced
in consequence of the working of the Drainage Act, but
I conceive that the improvement of the estates, if the
term be extended, as well as the construction of roads,
will amply repay the money that has been advanced
during that term. lam convinced that the plan which
I have adopted is better than that which has been pro-
posed by the Lord-Lieutenant for the relief of the poor
in Ireland. These are the reasons which have prompted
me to adopt this measure; and I !Aim that it will
not only be found to provide profitable employ-
ment for the poor, but will also prove of great advan
tags to property. We propose also to make a grant for
general works, such works as shall not only be important
in themselves, but which will prove of permanent ad-
vantage to the country. We propose thie in addition to
the money to be granted to the proprietors of
estates, and to give to the Board of Works
the general superintendence of the loans We
propose, therefore, to consolidate and amend these
laws. We propose, likewise, on the same principle to
which I have just adverted, namely, the principle of
promoting great public works for the benefit of the State,
we propose to undertake the reclamation of portions of
the waste lands of Ireland. It has long been stated
in various reports of Commissions, in reports of Com-
mittees of this House, in the works of eminent writers,
that in many cases the reclamation of the waste
lands of Ireland would produce large profits if
they were properly cultivated. Mr. Robert Dale,
in his most interesting work upon the indus-
rind resources of Ireland, says, he thinks the
estimate of 4,600,000 acres of waste land may be re-
claimed, farmed, and cultivated with profit, and by no
means an exaggerated estimate. Now, we propose to
devote a million of money to this purpose, and we
propose, should the proprietor of the waste land be
unwilling to sell or reclaim his land by means of the
loans I have mentioned, or out of his own resources, that
there should be a compulsory power to take and improve
the waste lands which are below a certain value. We
propose that that value should be put down at 2s. 6d.
Mr. GOULBUIIIc —ls that the annual value?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Yes, the annual value.
We propose upon this data to improve and reclaim the
waste lands so far as general operations are
concerned; that is, roads are to be made and
general draining is to be effected. The necessary build-
ings are,to be erected, but we do not propose to take
upon ourselves the cultivation of the land. It having
been so reclaimed, we propose that it should be divided
into lots, not below nor above a certain quantity. Ido
not think it necessary to mention figures, but I
would say not less than 25, nor more than 50 acres, and
when reclaimed, the land shall be let or sold in these
quantities ; if let, the tenant at the expiration of his
lease to have the option of purchasing his allotment
I confess that I do expect that great advantage will
arise from this plan. I do expect that a great many
persons who have been driven to despair and crime from
the great demand for land, will he enabled by such holdings
to earn a competent living. I think, also, that you will
raise a small class of proprietors who may be very in-
dustrious and very independent, which will form a very
valuable class. Let me say, in the meantime, that, as
far as I can form a judgment, I do dot think the
small holdings aro the great evil of Ireland.
I do believe that the method on which land has
been held is the chief source of its want of cultivation ;
but I do not think that the small holdings of the country
have been injurious : and I have arrived at that conclu-
sion from the fact, that the most prosperous and best
cultivated county in Ireland is Armagh—a county in
which the greatest division of land exists. If you com-
pare the whole province of Ulster with that of Munster,
you will find that there are many more divisions in the
province of Ulster in proportion to that of Munster. I
believe, therefore, in adopting this plan, and by giving a
compulsory power, a great advantage may be secured.—
(Hear, bear.) Now, Sir, I come to the third class of
propositions. I have stated, and I wish to repeat it,
that the measures which I am now stating are those
which we intend immediately to introduce, and that I am
not referring to those which we have in contemplation, and
which we think it will be our duty afterwards to propose.
But I say these measures, which we now submit, are cal-
culated to promote the improvement of Ireland, and
will enable proprietors to obtain sufficient funds to make
great improvements upon their estates, and also to pro-
vide the means whereby works of a more public
nature may be carried out.—(Hear, hear.) The
third class of measures to which I have alluded are
those intended simply to afford relief to the destitute.
It will be remembered that when the Poor-law Corninhrs-
sion of Inquiry mule its report, it advised that only a
certain class should be relieved, and in that class it ex-
cluded those who were infirm and permanently disabled.
We thought, upon the whole, that it was much safer, in
the first instance, to have workhouses erected in Ireland,
and not to confine the relief to any particular class of men.
Sir, it is not only the experience of all thee° acquainted
with the present state of things, but it is our own opi-
nion. founded on a general view of the state of Ireland,
that the poor-law should be more extensive than it is.
I therefore propose to bring in a Bill for the purpose of
more efficiently meeting the distress in Ireland, which
shall confer on the poor-law guardians powers to afford
relief either in or out of the workhouse to all parties
disabled by bodily ailment.—(hear, hear.) This
is what we propose inethe Bill to do; and to give
due effect to the measure, in the first place, the
guardians shall have the power, as a general rule, to
use the workhouse as a test of destitution ; and' in
the second place, to afford relief to the starving people
at their own houses, in order to satisfy the general
feeling of the country on this matter. —(Cheers )Sir, I
also propose, that in cases when the workhouse. is full,
that the Poor-law Commissioners shall have powert cs,
direct the guardians to give relief out of the workhouse
to the able-bodied poor. My opinion is that this power
should be cautiously useci and that the workhouse, as a
general principle, should be employed as a test of a
able-
bodied destitution destitution only ; still I think the House will
agree with me, that the Poor-law Commissioners should
have the power to make alterations in the operation'
of this test.—(Cheers.) I propose, therefore, that in
cases of urgent necessity—that is, in such cases where
the able-bodied make application for relief—that these
shall be relieved out of the workhouse, but in
food only.—(Hear, hear.) We further' propose
that relieving officers shall be appointed, whose
duty it shall be to take cognizance of all cases of distress,
and who, in urgent cases, when there is danger of the
people starving, shall have the power to give
relief out of the workhouse till the next meeting',
of the board of guardians such meeting to decide on
what arrangerneut shall be made for the paupers
relieved in this manner in future.—(Hear, hear.)
Such therefore, is the nature of the measures which I
propose immediately to introduce. There are, as I have
stated, other measures which have been and are under
the consideration of Government,. With respect to the
first class to which I have alluded—that class of
measures which enable proprietors to make better
use of their own property, to increase their
capital and improve their estates—we have under con •
sideration measures which shall facilitate the sale of
private property.—(Hear, hear.) There are two modes
by which it is to be done—one mode is, I think, taken
from the general principle of the Copyhold Act. Every
one knows that there are private Bills passing every year
by which certain individuals are allowed to sell a por-
tion of their estates, in order to pay off encumbrances
One way of carrying into effect the principle I have
mentioned would be to propose that there should be
general Bills, giving the Commissioners power to exa-
mine into each case, and then having the Bills passed
in another period of the session, by which, instead
of one private Bill, many private Bills would be
sanctioned by Parliament. Another mode which we
have under consideration, by which the same object would
be gained, could be done by application to the Court of
Chancery. I cannot say decidedly at this moment which
mode we shall eventually adopt, but we have the subject
under our earnest consideration. I shall
in like-
wise prepare Bills by which those tenures lr-
eland, which are called long leasehold tenures,
renewable for ever,
may be convertedn into freehold
s
tenures. I must say, generally speaking, with regard to
the present unfortunate state ofelrelarnd,erttyheismboesltdinin-
jurious system is the mode in which. property
various tenures, and under venous conditions
be
in ttlbiaatt,
country, The present mode appears to
a lare
of having a small rent charge upon
estate. The landlord has a property
dagbeimnt,
su e under
him, and that agent has a middleman u
it is impossible to say on whom the duty of property
rested.—(Cheers.) It is a question worthy of the
attention of Parliament to
and
onsiwderit
ihsowpestshiebslee
tenures may be simplifie
to connect the prod,
prietor thh
the tenant and
!eb7nr,-r in the manner in which they are connected
in Ireland and Scotland. It is to the want of that con-
n alien that is to be attributed, among the many causes
Ireland, the frightful instances of destitution

which so often reach the ears of the public ;
and when inquiry is made as to teho are the persons
who ought to be responsible for that destitution, and
who are called upon to subscribe for relief, it is impos-
sible to fix on them or find out who those persons are.
It is not so in England and Scotland, where, in the most
distressed districts, the proprietors charge themselves
and their estates with a considerable debt; they make
themselves responsible for advances of money, by which
they may relieve their tenants and dependants from the
calamity under which they are at present labouring.
(Hear, hear). Sir, under the second head of Public
Works there comes the subject of fisheries.
I have not at present any distinct statement to make
upon that subject, but I may inform the House that in
the course of last autumn three establishments for the
manufacture of salt, fur the purposes of curing, were
founded ; there v. as a vast amount of fish caught, but
a much '(*reefer amount might have been had were it not
that the fisheries were almost reglected by the fishermen
for the:cultivation of their portions of land. We trust,
however, to bring forward a measure on this subject in
the course of the session. Sir, there is another subject
on which I ara likewise, not prepared to make any st
Lie-
meat to the House, but on which I know there arc large
expectations entertained in Ireland. It is the very it'll-
portent subject of emigration. I confess I think that,
although Parliament may assist towards emigration,
the extravagant expectations that are entertained
on this heal can never be realise d. It .is
stated by Sir Robert Kane, and most truly stated, that
where pauper families have been removed, they never
can be removed in such numbers as to have any sensible
effect on the remaining population. But there is th's
to be considered, that if by some extraordinary effort
you can increase the ordinary emigration, if you can
expect to convey a million of persons across the
seas, you must consider that the question is not
simply whether these people have, or have not,
the means of profitable labour, you must consider, also,
whether there is in the country to which they emigrate
such means, and what they are. If by a large addition
to the public funds you could convey hundreds of
thousands of persons to the United States, the United
States would most justly complain that we cast upoii
them our paupers, when this was a duty properly
incumbent on ourselves. (Hear, hear.) If you
introduce hundreds of thousands of paupers into your
colonies, you will find that the labour market is
glutted, and instead of benefiting the colonies, you
perpetuate a race of beggars over the country.
The consequence would be the crowding of Nova Scotia
and Halifax with beggars. In considering this subject
when I held the seals of the Colonial-office, although I
confess I 's'as then disposed to go further than I could
go, in consequence of the obstacles in my way, arising
from the state of the finances, but I did think that
the best mode by which emigration could be pro
muted was by taking charge of the emigrants, not
at his present place of abode, not at the port of his
embarkation alone, nor at the port where he disem-
barked, but conveying him from there to some
field where the emigrants might find a mar-
ket for their labour; accordingly I proposed a
certain grant for the purpose of emigration, which has
since been continued from time to time, sometimes to a
larger and sometimes to a smaller amount. By means of
this grant many poor families have been conveyed from
Quebec to Montreal, and from Montreal to Kings-
ton and the interior parts of Western Canada.
and been placed in situations where they could earn
wages and be comfortably settled. The emigration
going on in this way has been in the past years very large.
In the year 1845, there went to our North American
colonies3l,ooopersons, to the United States 58,000,making
a total of nearly 90,000. In the first three quarters of
the year 1846, which contains the great bulk of the
emigration of the year, there went to our North
American colonies 42,404 emigants, to the United States
67,792, making a total of 110,196. The report from the
Agent of Emigration in Canada states that "during
the past year a much larger number of Irish emi-
grants had arrived in a state of destitution, as
to bed and clothing, exceeding anything that
he had ever before witnessed." The report goes
on to say, " that among the earlier emigrants there was
no distress except that resulting from their own mis-
conduct, and that employment could be easily obtained at
remunerative wages, and that the carrying out of
the public works would give additional employment, and
that the formation of the Montreal and Quebec Rail•
ways would give employment to a much larger number
of persons. I should certainly be afraid to give
anything like a stimulus to emigration, to such an
extent as to send a large number of paupers where
they could not obtain the means of support, and
involving a large outlay and waste of public money.
Under these circumstances it could not be expected
that the State would undertake the whole expenses of
an extensive system of emigration. Sir, there arc some
difficulties with regard to a general system of emi-
gration which cannot easily be encountered, and
the plans on which it is proposed to be carried are oh
jectionable, although there are some kinds of emigration
which are not objectionable, and to which I hope facili-
ties will be given. But I do not propose on the
part of the State that any Government plan of emi-
gration should be undertaken, and whether I may or may
not bring forward any measure to facilitate emigration
on the part of the Government. I wish to give no hope
of an extensive system of emigration.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir, I know not if the calculations of Sir R. Kane may
be taken altce„ether as a sober estimate, but he main-
tains that there are such resources in Ireland—such agri-
cultural resources—(Hear)—independently of the mineral
resources of the country, and the means of employ-
ment by water power for manufacture—that no less than
17,000,000 of people could be maintained out of them.
I do not enter into this calculation ; but this I
say that I do not think, if there were a good system of
agriculture introduced—if there were a good security
for investment of money in land—(Hear, hear)—if
the proprietors themselves- undertook the task of im-
proving the oountry, if the other classes co-operated
with them—l do not think the pre-ent population
of Ireland is excessive.—(Hear, hear.) And now,
before I conclude, if the House will so far
bear with me, I will venture to allude to those countries
which apparently had been in as bad a state, so far as
their general condition was concerned, as Ireland, and
which we now see flourishing, and in the possession of
peace. I think there may be some good in that retrospec-
tion, because I know that in the many evils that have af-
flicted Ireland—especially in viewing the present cala-
mity—there are some who are disposed to despair. I
do not despair ; I see no reason, unconnected with those
laws which happily have ceased to exist—unconnected
with unhappy circumstances to which I de
not like to allude, but n hick the Poor law Commis-
sioners have generally inquired into—ueconnected with
these circumstances, I see no reason why Ireland may
not become a state enjoying the greatest prosperity.
I will read the description of a country in e hich these
evils were stated to occur by an old English writ: r:—" The
husbandmen be thrust out of their own, or else either by
covin or fraud, or violent oppression, they be put beside
it; or by wrong and injuries they be so wearied that they
be compelled to sell all. By one means, therefore, or by the
other, either by hook or by crook, they must needs depart
away, poor, wretched souls,—men,women, husbands,wives,
fatherless children, widows,woful mothers with their young
babes, and the whole household, small in substance and
much in number; as husbandry rcquireth many hands;
away they trudge, I say, out of their known and accus-
tomed houses, finding no place to rest in. All their
household stuff, which is very little worth, though
it might well abide the sale—yet, being suddenly
thrust out, they be constrained to sell it for a thing
of nought; and, when they have wandered about till
that be spent, what can they then do but steal, and then
justly, partly, be hanged, or else go about a-begging ?"
This was a description not unlike that of parts of Ire-
land, where wretched families, being turned out of their
holdings, were driven at once either to the commission
of robbery or to go about begging. Yet the description
I have read is that given of England by Sir Thomas
More—(Hear, hear)—that was an account of England
in his day. If any one should suppose this was
an effort of the imagination, I can assure him
that we have other authentic accounts which
corroborate it, and in which it is stated that
the people roved about in bands of from 200 to 300 at a
time, who lived entirely by stealing or begging, taking
cattle from the fields, and committing such excesses,
that not anything or any place was safe. In
such numbers, indeed, did the people roam, that
it is said that as many as seventy thousand thieves,
rogues, and vagabonds were hanged in one day. I will
now turn to the state of society in another country,
where an equal degree of prosperity is known to pre-
vail. It is a description of the country at the end of
the 17th century, and in this description et is stated that
so great was the number of families that had been
driven from their own homes, that as many as
200,000 to 300,000 individuals were known to be
prowling about the country, living by steal-
ing and begging from door to door. It was,
indeed, believed that 100,000 persons who were con-
tinually on the prowl about the country, and though the
poor people who lived upon farms would give relief
to as many as forty persons in one day, yet
they could not avoid being insulted, or protect themselves
from the commission of the most grievous depredations.
Such is the description of industrious, sober Scotland at
the end of the 17th century.—(Hear, hear.) It shows
that a country which has been without order
where robbers were, where industry was neglected, may
afterwards become orderly and civilised, and I think we
should be unworthy of our position as Members of
Parliament, if we were to give way to despair.
in the present case.—(Cheers.) Sir, I knew, however,
that what I have touched upou relating to the social state
of Ireland—touching as I have done upon n_3_anay,i!nbe porr.)..
tent measures—is but a part of the caso--(tle !!...
I am not one of those who think, that apart other
r er
ques-
tions o
eel questions—from political rights—from h
connected with political institutions—a merely
beneficent Government can restore a country
It
to prosperity and happiness.—(Cheers.) is my opi-
nion that other means will be required, and when
shall
be I
proper time comes for preparing such measures
be ready to undertake anything for the benefit of Ire-
land ; but, Sir, I feel that, with respect to these and all
other measures, that there are things which
the Crown cannot grant, which Parliament
cannot grant, such as a spirit of self-reliance, a
spirit of perseverance.—(Cheers.) I must say plainly
that I should indeed despair of this task, were it not
that I think I see symptoms amongst the people of Ire-
land both of a greater reliance upon their own energies,
their own exertions, and a greater willingness to co-
operate with us.—(Cheers.) I believe that they will en-
courage this spirit amongst themselves—l believe that they
will see what has been done in this country and in her
neighbour Scotland, by industry,
they will; by perseverance,. by
never despairing of success—that this spirit, not looking always to go on in
overnmentfor pro-
posals, and to Parliament for enactments—(Cheers)—
but see what is the task immediately before them,
and set themselves down heartily and strenuously
to perform that task, and prose that there are means

and resources in Ireland which may bring these
matters to a happy issue.—(Loud cheers.) There
is no doubt of the fertility of the Lind.

Its fertility has been the theme and admiration of the
writers and travellers oj all nations. There is no doubt
either of the strength and industry o the inhabitants.
The same man who is loitering by the mountain side in
Tipperary or in Derry—whose potato crop has just
furnished bite with occupation for a few days—
who2e wages and whose pig have just enabled hire
to pay his rent, and eke out a miserable subsist-
enc,, has perhaps a brother in Liverpcyil,
Glasgow, or London, who, by the sweat of his brow,
f_ f.oaa morning till night, is competing
the strongest and stoutest laboarers, and is
_earning wages equal to any of them.—(l.lear, hear.)
Ido not think, therefore, that either the fruitfulness
of the land, or the strength or the inditstry of the inha-
bitants are to be blamed. There have been faults, it is
true-=there have been differences—but hsppy will
it be for us if we lay the founclation for the
cure of these difference.; —(Hear, hear.) Happy %,i!l
it be, if the Irish themselves take fur their maxim the
precept " Help yourself, and Heaven will help vou," and
then I trust that they will find that there have been
uses in adversity.—(The Noble LOrd then resumed his
seal, amid protracted cheering.)
Sir H. W. BARRON desired to know how the poor
were to be supported, and in what way the taxes were to
be levied ?

Lord JOHN RUSSELL—I trade a mistake when'.
said that rites were to bo levied by the relief com-
mittees—the rates are to- be levied by the board of
guardians, and they will have the power to 1,-vy
additional rates they may require. The committees will
be empowered to receive them, and to this will be addf,d
private subscriptions and donations from the Go-
vernment.

Mr. B. OSBORNE wished to have from the N„hic
Lord some explanation of his statement about Lord
Sligo and Mr. Moore refusing to pay the rates at
Castlebar.

Lord J. RUSSELL said the Hon. Member had mis-
apprehended his meaning. He (Lord John Russell)
stated that a meeting had been called at Ca,stiebar, and
that Lord Sligo and Mr. Moore had proposed and se-
conded the resolutions to which he had alluded ; and
that in the Union of Castlebar there were arrears of
rents due, as he had stated ; but he did not say that
either the Marquis of Sligo or Mr. Moore were among
thsse who were in arrears.—(Hear, hear.) In saying
that he did not mean to reflect on the Noble Lord or
the other gentleman referred to.—(Hear.)
Mr. S. O'BRIEN, who rose amidst considerable con-
fusion, said his object was to ask the Noble Lord the
course the Government intended to adopt in reference,
first, to making advances on railway works ? and,
second, whether her Majesty's Government, in their con-
sideration of the present condition of the people of Ireland,
had decided on bringing in a Tenants' Compensation
Bill, in order to provide for the compensation of tenants
in eases of removal?
Lard JOHN RUSSELL said, that respect-
ing making advances for railways, that sub-
ject had been under consideration, and it was
thought unwise to do so generally on works
of that description. It was a subject into which the
Government was not prepared to go at present. Re-
garding tenants' compensation, a Bill had been pre-
pared, but it was not intended to be introduced into
that House at present, and would, in all probability,
originate in the other House.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord CLEMENTS was desirous f knowing if any
arrangements had been made for the poor emigrants
who might arrive in the colonies —whether it was
their intention to appropriate any capital in the
colonies of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, stud the
Canadas, in order to encourage emigration to that
quarter?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the subject had come
under the consideration of his Noble Friend the Secre-
tary for the Colonies, and the Government was prepared,
if proprietors or companies in Canada were willing to
construct villages or build dwellings while railways were
in the course of construction, to make advances of money
to assist them.--(Hear, bear.)
Lord CLEMENTS said his question had reference to
advances for the cultivation of the land in the colonies,
and not for the construction of railroads.
Mr. F. FRENCH said that just before the meeting of
the House an Hon. Friend of his connected with the
late Government had assured him, from information he
had received, the measures to be brought forward by her
Majesty's Government were likely to prove most
distasteful to the Irish Members, and most
particularly so to himself. It did not
appear to him desirable to go into details as to any part
of the measure proposed by the Noble Lord, but he
could say that his first proposal was in accordance with
the Treasury minute of the Ist of December, with
reference to the employment of the people. The objec-
tionable portion of it appeared to him to be the inter-
ference of the Board of Works, in the employment of the
people. With regard to the proposition of out-door relief,
under the poor-law, such a course appeared to him to
be most desirable, and altogether the provisions of the
Noble Lord appeared to him to claim the utmost admir-
ation. He admired the distinction drawn by the Noble
Lord between the temporary measures for the relief of
Ireland, and these likely to become permanent CMCS—those
fer the emergency of starvation, and those for
the improvement of the country. Ireland bad
lately become involved in many serious diffi-
culties, and those difficulties appeared to him to
be increased by the measures adopted by the Right Hon.
Member for Tamworth, in tampering with the provision
trade, which was at all times a dangerous speculation.
He had created a feeling in the minds of the people
that it was the duty of the Government to feed them,
and that the Government had the power to
do it, and that feeling had given rise to
considerable discontent and dissatisfaction in the
distressed districts that the Government did not
perform impossibilities. That feeling had led to the
occurrence which had taken place in the county of
Galway, in which county, on the coroner's jury sitting
to inquire into the circumstances attending the death of
a woman who died of want, a verdict of wilful
murder was returned against Lord John Russel.
The second error which the Right Hon. Baronet's Go-
vernment committed was, the administering indiscrimi-
nate out-door relief—seconding the intervention of the
Board of Works, the principle of State interference in
matters purely private. That the Noble Lord at the head
of the Governxent clearly saw the dangers anddifficulties
of the position which the Right Hon. Baronet took,
was clearly manifested from his first Treasury minute,
from his speeches in that House, from his letter
to the Duke of Leinster, and many other evidences ;
but in the confusion ircidental to the formation of a
new Government, the legacy left by the Right Hon.
Baronet, namely, the Poor Employment Bill, with
all its attendant evils, evils which had created
the greatest discontent between landlord and tenant,
from cne end of Ireland to the other, became law.
The evil was in the very principle of the Act, for
he could bear his w-rmest testimony to the great
abilities of Mr. Jones and Captain Larkinn. The first
evil was in the diversion of the entire population from
the cultivation of the soil. According to the
statement of the Noble Lord, not less than
480,000 persons were now employed. The commerce
of the county was therefore greatly interfered with. In
the county which he had the honour to represent, a road
from Roscommon to Athlone, a distance of 15 miles,
which usually took the mail an hour to traverse, now
took four and a half hours, and an application was made
to Government to grant an additional hour. In fact,
the Board of Works were designated throughout the
whole of Ireland as the wholesale destroyers of her
Majesty's highways. That expenditure of 180,0004 a
week was going on in the country, when every eminent
agriculturalist who had studied the subject agreed
in the opinion that by a proper system of
drainage the produce of the soil might be in-
creased from 25 to 100 fold. Another effect of
this public employment was its demoralising in-
fluence upon the minds of the people, taking
from them all self reliance, and encouraging them
to look to a system of out-door relief, and
fostering habits of laziness and indolence at a period
when every exertion should be used to rouse their in-
dustrial energies. He was glad to hear that the
opinions of the Right Honourable Baronet the
Member for Tamworth had been somewhat
modified since the last session, and he recommended
that the army of 10,000 overseers should be disbanded,
and labour again caused to flow into its proper
channel. That was the expression of the Feneral
feeling of the people of Ireland, and their voice had
been heard by the Government of the country. When
the Lord Lieutenant first issued that letter, known
throughout the country as " Labouchere's letter,"
which the Honourable Member for Limerick had
threatened to impeach, its object was to substitute
tute productive for unproductive works, and proposing a
division of the country into electoral districts, allowing
presentments to be made for private interests under the
Drainage Act. That letter was not acted upon,
because it was provided that the works should
be carried on under the Board of Work, thereby
entailing an additional cost of cent.. per
this evening
He anticipated that the measure proeo".di advantages
by the Noble Lord would con.thfert
on Ireland. He agreed fully.wr
things
would of the. Noble
tr however lament-
able Lord's atdhderefusstu
de-
spair
of might be—as e had
nodoubt
her present position .
athbereettwerassntaotecause
of
that after much acute suffering
inrewshtaictehohfethsaaltdeoun y
established. The
the
country be re.
would ensue, and the prosperity of
decrees, as
well as the calamities, of nature generally
ila, caused a reaction, and often led to the best re-
suits in the
humannd
Ireframe
as
the welldiff as
body politic : thus
difficulty and
e
problem of statesmen, throughthe e fearful ca-
lamity with -which it had pleased Providence
to afflict her, had done that for that country
which neither
King's nor statesmen had been able
to (Met, as it had led to the adoption of
measures which would give Ireland a fair field, and
which would go far to promote her regeneration. In
after years they would have to look back upon these
measures, either ;as having promoted the prosperity, or
led to the utter ruin of Ireland.
Mr. BELLEW thought that indeed the importance of
this subject could not be exaggerated, and the feelings of
the Irish Members could not but have been gratified by the
arrangement which the Noble Lord had proposed. He
rejoiced that the principle of rendering the Irish land=
lords responsible for the support of their
poor had for the first time been adopted in that
House that night ; and he thought that the Mombers for
England and Scotland would be satisfied with the arrange-
ment, as it extended the poor-laws from these countries
to Ireland. Yet it should be remembered that the rate
levied under the poor-law in this country only amounted
to one-sixth, or 2s. in the pound, whilst in Ireland it
amounted to one•fourth. The Irish landlord WAS
generally supposed to be an embarrassed
person. It was, therefore, stated that Ow