The Sun.
London, England, 1847-06-30 00:00:00

TUB OUN., 1.-0N00144, WEDNTBSDAY

rbtib xbttton

SUN OFFICE, Seven o'clock.

RAILWAY COMMITTEES.

(THIS DAY.)

ROUSE OF LORDS.
ROOM A.

Oa EAT
...NOR.THERN (HERTFORD, HAT-
- _

PIE I. D, ST. ALBANS BRANCH).

Their Lordships decided, on the conclusion of the
case, that it would not be necessary for Mr. Sergeant
Wrangharn to address the Committee on behalf of the
preamble of the Bill, but it was thought desirable that
some clauses should be introduced for the protection of
the property of one of the opposing landowners.
A clause was, after some consultation, tendered to the
rOommittee, which was agreed to by the opposition, and
the preamble of the Bill c,'‘ as delared to be proved.

Room B.

MANC RESTER, BUXTON, IYEATLOCIE AND
BTZDX.A.ND TOLUCTION (DEVIATION).
Their Lordships were occupied in hearing evidence in
c.opposition to the proposed deviation.

Room E.
zavisraPooL, MANCHESTER, AND NEW-
CASTLE-UPON-TYNE JUNCTION.
Their Lordships declared the preamble of this Bill to
be pro, ved.

tine next Bill which the Committee decided upon
proceeding with was
THE EAST LANC lISHIRE • (SOUTHPORT

BRANCH),
evidence in favour of which occupied the Committee
during the whole period of its sittings.

Room F.
36074D0N-BRIDGE TERMINI AND
GENERAL ENLARGEMENT.
Mr. Cubitt, C.E., and several other witnesses were
examined in support of the proposed enlargement of the
'existing station at London-bridge.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
GROUP VI.

SA.LISEUILY AND YEOVIL—EXETER, YEO-
VIL, AND DORCHESTER—AND ELAND-
-7202&D AND IMOTON.
The Committee met at the usual hour.
Mr. Cock BURN proceeded to reply on behalf of the whole
of above-named schemes. The Learned Counsel, in intro
ducing his address, stated that he felt great pleasure in
congratulating the Committee upon the speedy termina-
tion, upon this, the fiftieth day of the inquiry, of the
protracted proceedings which had taken place with re-
spect to those Bills. The arguments were arranged
under three distinct heads, and were enforced with the
Learned Counsel's usual clearness, ability, and elo-
quence. Under the first head he proceeded to comment
upon the evidence which had been adduced, in order to
show the absolute necessity which existed for railway
accommodation in and through tilt: district between Sa-
lisbury and Exeter. Tne claims of the South-Western
Railway to supply this district, on
the grounds of its
superiority over, and the conwdetition which it would
afford, with the existing or proposed extensions of the
Great Western Railway, were then most forcibly brought
before the Committee. The attention of the Committee
was next drawn to the consideration of the question
whether any of the collateral questions which had been
raised 'uy the competing companies in the course of the
inquiry were such as to induce the Committee to with-
hold its sanction to that scheme which, under the second
head, he had endeavoured to prove was the most
entitled to obtain that sanction ; and, relying
upon the weight of evidence which had been
already adduced, the patience, the judgment, and the
impartiality of the Committee, he had not the least mis-
giving,. as to the result of its decision.
The Learned Counsel had not concluded his address
when the Committee ro=e.

GROUP XXX.

.axizoLmE, (rnoivx LEEDS AND SELBY).

The Committee met at the usual hour.

S,rgeant KINGLAKE opened the ease for certain
landowners whose property would be affected by the
proposed line, and who were petitioners against the
Bill.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT,

(THIS DAY.)

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

ABUSE OF THE RELIEF FUND IN IRELAND,
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition.)

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said it would be seen by the
report that the distribution of rations amounted to
between three and five millions daily ; and looking at
the diffi.ndt duties the relief committee had to perform,
he could not help thinking that a great degree of credit
was due to them for the systematic manner in which they
hag fulfilled their functions. No doubt there had been
several instant-s of gross abuse, but that was no more
than was to be expected from the magnitude of the system
of relief. It Was asked, why not have a general inquiry?
He confessed that he did not think a general inquiry
would be productive of good—a general inquiry over all
Ireland, to ascertain who had and who had not per-
formed their duties with regularity and efficiency in
the relief committees, would give rise to a
good deal of ar‘iongst the gentry, would
necessarily lead to acrimonious statements and counter-
statements, and he therefore did not think it at all ex-
pedient to institute a general inquiry into the conduct of
the magistracy throughout Ireland. It would be much
better, he thought, to leave' it to the officers of the
Executive Government to eradicate these abuses than to
resort to a general inquiry. He could not sit
down without referring to what had fallen from
the Noble Lord opposite, who designated the
system of relief afforded by the Government as a general
;scramble. No doubt many of the landed proprietors of
land had erroneously looked upon it in that light,
and had felt that they were justified in availing them-
selves of in aid to the utmost extent.
Lord CLEMENTS said he described the relief to be
a (reneral scramble, because the GovernmeLt did not
define the parties who were to be entitled to relief.
Lord J. RUSSELL did not think the Noble Lord
had mended his statement at all by the explanation
he had just given, but he would not pursue the sub-
ject further, and he would sit down, expressing his
belief that generally the magistracy and gentry of Ire-
land had performed their duty with cheerfulness and
efficiency.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. lIA.SIILTON was unwilling to throw any blame
whatever upon tne Relief Commissioners for publishing
these charges, but they ought to have pointed out by
names the parties who had been guilty of the dereliction
of dut; complained hit He was, however, not disposed
to support a proposition for a general inquiry, but he
would giaolly support any motion which should have the
effcet of suvplyi,.g them with further information on
this painful subject.
Atter a few words from Mr. WILLIAMS,
Sir U. FERGUSON said it was difficult to recon-
cile the report of the Commissioners with the letters of
Sir John Burgoyne, a:1,1 he thought, therefore, that
the suggestion of the lion, Baronet the Member for
Mallow ought to be agreed to.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. P. 130 R CFI vica" also thought it was the duty
of the Government to supply the House with further
information of the charges of the Commissioners.
The subject then dropped.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.

Messengers from the Lords brought down several Bills.

MINES AND COLLIERIES BILL.

Sir G. GREY expressed a hope that before going into
the order of the day for the second reading, the Hon.
Member who had charge of the Bill would not press it
upon the Huuse then, fur many Hon. Members had left
town upon the understanding that the Bill would not be
proceeded with in the present session. The Govern-
ment intended in the course of the ensuing session to
take measures to prevent the frequent occurrence of
accidents which took place in these mines and collieries.

Mr. T. S. DUNdOSIBE said that he was very
anxious teat this Bill should be read a second
time, even if it should proceed no further, for it
was one in which a very large and influential
body of gentlemen in this country took great
interest. Many accidents—and those of the most serious
natuire—were constantly taking place, and he did think
that it was quite time that some interference on the part
of the Government was put in force. In many of these
instances it had been proved that these accidents arose
from neglect, and from the want of a proper system of
inspection on the part of the Government. Besides this
evil, it wad well known that the grossest impositions
were practised upon the men, by a system of making
them work by measure instead of weight, and this was
particularly the case in Staffordshire and Lanca-
shire. The Acts which had been framed to
supersede the payment of wages at a public house had
been evaded by putting the men in classes, and paying
them
by w money order, which they would only get
changed at the public-house, and by each man paying a
,certain sum for beer, as the charge for changing the money
(viler. He could see no reason why an adequate protection
slai "mid not be afforded to the labourers inminesas well as
Ile to the labourers in factories. that the House
and the Government would allow thisPed
Bill to be read a
secorKl time, as its rejection would disappoint a great
number of the industrious labourers of Great Britain.
Colonel SIBTLIORP had had great satisfaction i
hearing the speech of the Hon. Gentleman, andhen o lny
regretted tile, in spite of all the opposition offered by the
Government, he did not trust to the support of the
„Rouse, which would carry the measure through all its
.
stops. The Host, had brought before Lem
the accidents which were liablo to take place in
min ,s and collieries; he might have added to these the
accidents which had taken place, and were daily taking
place on railways, and if the Government refused to in-
ve-tigrt,'e the causes of these accidents, he could only
sdy that it would prove his opinion correct, that they
were utterly unworthy of the position they occupied.
Ile ten'lere.i his thanks to the Hon. Member for Fins-
bury for his Sin as far as it went, but he should have
wisi.ed that he had carried its nrovisions further. He
did :not always agree with he Iton, lilember for Fins-
bury , bat where the interests of the peoplP were con-
cerns d he trusted he had never been found backward in
coming forward.—(Laughter.)
Mr. LIDDELL felt called upon by a sense df
ditty to move that the Bill be read a second
ti; uc .that day three months. He was not less
anxious than the Honourable Member for Finsbury
.to adopt measures which would prevent accidents in mines
an ,-1 ,toflieri,cs, but he would wish that measures for that

f purpose should be-intiaicecl b4y proper authority. This
Bill of the Hon. Member's was one of the most ridiculous
in its provisions that it had ever been his fortune to see,
and it required no great discernment to see that the Hon.
Member had made the accidents that might happen in
mines and collieries the peg on which to hang measures
for the furtherance of his other objects. The Bill pro-
vided that three inspectors should have the power of
superintending the working of mines and collieries in
England, to examine into petitions, and to exercise
a very extended authority under the operation
of this Bill. Now there were three great coal
fields in England—the Northumberland and Durham,
the Staffordshire and part of Yorkshire, and the Welsh
coal-fields, and there was, besides, the extensive coal-
fields of Scotland. If Scotland was to be taken into
consideration, one of these districts would require to be
a supernumerary one. He was unprovided with docu-
ments, and could not, therefore, say at that moment
what was the number of mines and collieries in Eng-
land, but he believed that in Northumberland and Dur-
ham alone there were between two and three hun-
dred. Could it be expected that one gentle-
man could pay that attention to this district which
was contemplated by the Bill? The other portions of the
Bill were equally defective. He thought that the course
to be adopted would have been to have a Select Com-
mittee appointed on the subject ; then, when they had
certain and established facts before them, the Govern-
ment could bring in a Bill which would receive the at-
tention of the House, and be calculated to be of some
real utility. He would move as an amendment that the
Bill be read a second time that day three months.
Mr. BERNAL said, that whatever absurdity was in
the Bill, as the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just
sat down had stated, it could be remedied in Committee.
He did not think that the number of commissioners ap-
pointed should form the entire ingredient in the conside-
ration. The Bill was intended to give protection
to the lives, limbs, and fortunes of those who were
engaged in these mines and collieries, and he thought
that an attempt to remove the causes of those accidents,
which were of such frequent occurrence in these places,
was deserving of their best attention. He did not think,
however, that it would be of any use in his Hon. Friend
to press on the Bill to a Committee this session, but he
was of opinion that he had acted rightly in bringing it
before the House, as it would attract public attention to
the subject, and be the means of getting a measure passed
with reference to these evils in a future Parliament.
Sir G. GREY said that his Hon. Friend who had just
sat down asked what peril would there be in reading the
Bill a second time? He (Sir G. Grey) asked of what
advantage it would be to read it a second time if it
proceeded no further ? (Hear, hear.) The Go-
vernment were fully alive to the importance of the
subject, but he did not think it right that they
should interfere so sweepingly as this Bill pro-
posed to do, for they would' be entirely preventing those
who were most interested in the prevention of those acci-
dents from adopting such steps as it was their duty to
take, and as they would take, in the absence of legislation.
fie begged the House to suspend its decision on the Bill
at present, as he believed such a course would lead to
great public advantage, and while he admitted the duty of
some Parliamentary interference, he thought the course
he proposed would be the most judicious one under pre-
sent circumstances.
Mr. BECKETT DENISON was not opposed to the
principles of the Bill, but would suggest to the Hon.
Member for Finsbury to adopt the suggestion of the
Right Hon. Baronet the Home Secretary, and withdraw
the Bill for the present.
Lord HARRY VANE concurred in that suggestion;
for, by those means, time would be given for more
mature consideration and more deliberate inquiry; and
he believed his Hon. Friend would exercise a wise dis-
cretion in adoptine. it.
Mr. WAKLEedid not know how his Hon. Colleague
could adopt that suggestion. Every one admitted the
principle of the Bill, and yet, beoause it related to the
interests of the House, there was an extraordinary hesi-
tation manifested to incur the expense of carrying it
into effect. If a Noble Lord lost his life by an explosion
in a mine, he believed it would cause such a sensation
that legislation would take place with regard to such
accidents in the earliest part of the next session, and he
was not sure but that it would not be mentioned in the
speech from the throne.—(Laughter.) He thought they
should not hesitate a moment to legislate upon this
subject, for the cause of humanity demanded it. It was
said there was not time to consider it. He would ask
why there was not time? He saw no necessity for the
House rising on any particular- day, and he trusted that
this plea of want of time would not be made with regard
to this measure.
Mr. NEWDEGATE thought the subject was too im-
portant to be disposed of at the close of the session when
there was not time to discuss it properly, and he quite
concurred with the Hon. Baronet the Home Secretary
in the propriety of withdrawing it for the present.
Mr. AGLIONBY did not agree with the observations
of the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Finsbury. If
the Government and the coalowners opposed the Bill
the Hon. Gentleman would be placed in a most
unfortunate position. He thought, therefore, as no
good could arise from proceeding with it in
the present session, that it would be better to
withdraw it, and that the Government and the Hon.
Gentlemen should well consider and revise the measure
during the recess, and bring it forward in an amended
state next session. He had withdrawn the Medical
Registration Bill notwithstanding so many petitions had
been presented in favour of it, and he could only regret
that, on this occasion, he did not adopt a similar coarse.
Mr. P. HO WARD also considered that the Hon.
Gentleman should withdraw the Bill. At the same time
he considered that the mines ought to be subjected to a
more rigid supervision ; and as this could only be done
properly by the Government, he trusted that they
would support the principle of the Bill, and if he held a

seat in the next session; he promised them his earnest
support.

Mr. FORSTER considered the Bill a most absurd one.
Everything that science or art could supply had been
taken advantage of by the owners of mines for the pur-
pose of protecting those in their employ from injury.
They were not to blame, because nineteen out of every
twenty accidents that occurred were caused by the care-
lessness of the workpeople themselves, and how could he
prevent by this Bill carelessness on the part of
workmen? Whenever an accident occurred the owners
of mines lost several thousands pounds, and this was
surely far greater punishment, if they were guilty of
neglect, than the fine of 1001. Coalowners did not object
to inquiry.—(Hear.) In fact, be thought that inquiry was
necessary in order to set the public mind right in the matter.
But if any interference was necessary it should be in
the hands of the Government.—(Hear.)
Mr. B. OSBORNE said if the Government would

give a pledge that they would bring in a Bid on the
subject, no doubt the Hon. Gentleman would withdraw
his Bill.

Sir GEORGE GREY admitted that interference was
necessary, and that it might be advisable to recommend
legislative measures on the subject. The subject had
received the attention of the Government, and would

continue to receive their attention ; and if, on inquiry,
they found that legislative measures were necessary, the
Government would bring them forward. Many of the
coalowners had shown the utmost desire to aid the
inquiries of the Government.

Mr. T. DUNCOIIBE said it appeared that he had
to contend against a great body of coalowners, against
nearly as large and as powerful a body as the cotton
lords.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Durham
(Mr. Liddell) ridiculed his Bill, but he represented the
coalowners—he was a coal-field in himself—(Laughter)
—but when. he did so he ridiculed the report of the
inspectors appointed to investigate the causes which had
led to the loss of 73 lives in the Barnsley colliery, who
recommended such a measure as the one be had brought
forward. He had only done his duty in introducing the

Bill; it contained no extravagant provisions, although
some parties might think so. After the statements of
the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Home De-
partment he would cheerfully leave the measure in the
hands of the Government.
The Bill was then withdrawn.
LUNATICS BILL.

Mr. T. DUNCOMBE moved the second reading of
,he Lunatics Bill.

Sir G. GREY trusted that the Hon. Member for
Finsbury would not press this Bill at the present moment,
as it contained provisions so absurd that the Hon.
Member himself would object to be a party to them. It
proposed, among other things, to place the care of luna-
tics in the hands of the bishops.—(Laughter.)
Mr. 'l'. DUNCOMBE must confess that he was not
so confident with respect to this Bill as to the last, but
still the measure contained some excellent provi-
sions, and such as he felt convinced were much
required. No one could doubt that the present
lunacy law was most defective, and that under it many
persons were confined as lunatics who were no lunatics
at all. The present Bill was intended to amend the
law, but he was afraid that at the present
period of the session it would be useless to press the
measure. He should, however, keep his eyes fixed on
the commissioners under the present law, and if he
was a Member of the House in another session, he should

introduce a similar measure.
Lord SEYMOUR defended the conduct of the com-
missioners.

Mr. WAKLEY thought his Hon. Colleague had
acted wisely in withdrawing the measure, and his only
wonder was where he got it.—(Laughter.) The idea
of placing the lunatics of the country under
the care of the bishops was absurd. —(Laughter.)
It was well known that religion often caused insanity.
Pie was ready to admit that in some, nay in a great
number of instances, lunatics had been improperly, if not
cruelly treated, but he thought nothing of the sort had
occurred since the present law was in existence.
He thought that private lunatic asylums were objection.
able, and he hoped shortly to see the day when they
would be abolished altogether.
Mr. V. SMITH said that the paid commissioners
under the present law had ever since their appointment
had their time constantly employed in visiting lunatic
asylums, and he believed had, by their great exertions,
effected considerable improvemert. He agreed that the
s,,oner private lunatic asylums were abolished the better.
~..,:r_he Bill was then withdrawn.
"k-)IjCTION AND PROSTITUTION SUPPRES-
r SPOONER moved the further consideration of
SION BILL.
M.
on this Bill.
BERKELEY asked the Secretary of State for
the Home Department if he allowed
offerS any
the
lur. c report.
i this Bill to pass ?
t was not his intention to
agreed to, and the Bill ordered to
GyEORGE GREY said
opposition to the Bill.
rroesps
eodr t WAS then
.
beTenhge
HOLYHEAD HARBOUR BILL.
On the question being put for going into Committee
on this Bill,
Mr. IvILLIAMS expressed a hope that the Bill
the present
would not be I:).Tsevered in during
.. session
'
d ture of public
because it would involve A 11Selcss
.expen i
1r hl °kin; the pro-
money, without producing the del ATii) f

•
moters of the measure had in view. He begged to move
that this Bill be committed that day three months.
Mr. WARD said that he should very shortly answer
his lion. Friend, for really the subject had been so re-
peatedly discussed, that it would be unnecessary to tres-
pass at any length on the House. It had been peeved that
the harbour was a good one, and from the reports of the
engineers, he believed that the termination of the oper-
ations would be satisfactory to the public. Those evils
which had been complained of by the Hon. Member
were founded in error, and perhaps existed only in his
imagination.

The gallery was then cleared for a division.
On eur re-admission we found
For the motion
For the amendment
Majority for going into Committee —Bl
The House then went into Committee upon the Bill.
The various clauses were agreed to, and the Bill was
ordered to be reported to-morrow.
THE WELLINGTON STATUE.
Lord G. BENTINCK wished to put a question of
some importance to the public, and which, he believed,
that every man in the country would feel interested in
He wished to know whether the Noble Lord and her
Majesty's Government had not the strongest reason
for knowing that the removal of the statue from the
arch, and the retraction of her Majesty's grant of that
site for it, would be in the highest degree distasteful
and he felt even as an indignity to the illtntrious per-
sonage, whose great military deeds it was the intention
of those who subscribed to that memorial to comme
morate.

Lord J. RUSSELL—I certainly received information
from a gentleman who called upon me in Downing-street,
that the Duke of Wellington had expressed to him in a
letter that the removal of the statue would be considered
by others as injurious to his reputation—or
words somewhat to that effect. The letter
was written a _ considerable time ago —in
February—and since that time her Majesty has
been pleased to order not only that a more fitting
pedestal should be placed for the statue whenever this
House should grant the funds, but also that
whenever this House does grant the funds for that
purpose, that the arch should be ornamented after
the more approved manner in which triumphal arches
were formerly ornamented, and ornamented in honour of
the Duke of Wellington, and, in fact, to make it an arch
dedicated to that illustrious personage, I cannot suppose
that the Duke of Wellington can any longer entertain
the feelings which he has expressed in that letter.
Lord G. BENTINCK begged also to ask the Noble
Lord whether he had not seen, under the hand of that
illustrious personage, since the time when that noti-
fication was given to that House, an intimation
to which he (Lord G. Bentinck) had before referred,
and whether he did not know that a letter had been
written, which left no doubt that the feeling of that
illustrious individual was that the arch should remain
unchanged.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that since the intimation re-
ferred to by his Noble Friend had been first received
from the Duke of Wellington upon this subject, they
had received no further intimation of the feelings of
the Noble Duke upon this subject, and, in fact,
he did not himself believe that such was at present the
feeling of the Noble Duke. It was always in the power
of any person to ask the Duke of Wellington what were
his feelings upon the subject, but he believed that the
Noble Duke would consent to that site being made for
the statue which her Majesty's Government thought
most fit for it.

Mr. Wakley, Mr. Hume, and Mr. Newdegate ex-
pressed their belief that it was the opinion of the public
that the statue should be allowed to remain where it
was. The subject then dropped.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of,
and the House adjourned at Six o'clock.