The Sun.
London, England, 1812-06-17 00:00:00

. ,
us fait a Critef iOti of ;the Yalite OfthC conitherce aS
any thilir could dot tionOn:•, )le. Gentleman
was, correct as to-the exports to America;
when..he- stated them .at aiiout tweive miiiiuns
they were on an average annually bCtween.teu and
twelve millions ; the only question was, %0.-let-her
the. trade would he porehased, too dearly by• the'
suspension of the Orders in Council ? ha:i
talked-too of thedisresoeetfUl manner i-t which he
(Mr. R.) had, treated' the evidence at the bar ;
he.,
strong
now would shew idence to the con-
trary, and•lie would also shew,that as to the SOuth
American. experiment, as it was called, that failed
principally inconsequence of some of the articles
sent to that part of the world not being such -as
were• in use. One gentleman hail sent out stock-'
)ings, which they did not-want—another had ex-
ported a quantity of coffin furniture, when in fact
the inhabitants had not an idea of burying their
deqd in fiurniture--,-another sent Sedan chairs,
which. they did not wants But the-filet was, the
increas'ug trade to that part was profitable. The
'Honourable Gentleman was a little wrong in his
calculation of the exports of iron fri-n. Birming-
ham. The witnesses had stated, that the whole
amount. of the exports of that article from all parts
of toe country was not' More than seven. hundred
and twenty thousand pounds, so that in fact, when
he stated onemillion two hundred thousand pounds
as the share of Birmingham, he overstepped the
mark,. and either the witnesses must be right, or
the Custom House wrong. If the witnesses were
right, then it followed of course that the exports
were more than 'the returns made-by the Custom
'Howie. With respect to the maritime rights of
the Country, the Honourable Gentleman had been
liberal in admitting those rights, but that admis-
sion was tendered merely for the purpose of in-
ducing•the House to give up the Orders in Coun-
cil. But these Orders were not further persever-
ed in for the sake of maintaining those rights as
against America, but against France. As to the
commerce with America, the truth was- as the
Honourable Gentleman stated,' that they had ina-
nufaetures of their own, and this country was de-
ceived if much was expected. The Hon. Gentle-
man had talked of victories at Talavera and Co-
runna, but -What had those victories to do with
the trade to America ? If the repeal of the Orders
in Council was agreed to, then, indeed, the vic-
tory spoken of would remain- with France. The
Right Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to detail
the evidence as it bore in favour of the system.—
A great deal of it was not printed, and for that
reason he had been anxious for delaying the con-
sideration. The petitioners were prepared; they
had arranged their case methodically,which facili-
tated it. They had printed.and circulated new
evidence. But he. had not been able to read the
immense
.volume so as to dig. st its contents. Un-
der the firs head of commercial arrangements
stood.irou ; and-in respect.-co the state of the men
employed in that mouufacture, he had no doubt,
there were numbers out of employ, and if .the
measure was repealed, they would experience im-
mediate relief. He assured the House, that if re-
sistance was held out to the repeal, that resist-,
ance proceeded from the strong sense whieh. he
entertained. He could have no other view, for lie
should not have much longer the management of
the Board of Trade. He was firmly persuaded,
that, if the trade. was, opened, its continuance,
could not be insured. The;. next. bead was that of
nails j; and here there was a contrariety of evi-
dence :, for one witness stated, that the ware-
houses of Liverpool were full--when another (Mr.
they
Hornley) declaredwere .not full. A Mr. Fox
stated, the trade to America, exceeded the whoie
of the trade to other parts,: that statement he
(Mr. R.) much doubted—for the iron exported to
America was about one-sixth, or 700,000/. where-
as in fact the whole of the exports in that article
amounted to twornillions—He contended that the
exports from the Continent rivalled our manufac-
tures, and weresold at a cheaper. rate! This.
infotmation,ht.k drew froinvariouB parts of theevi-
denee. He defended. the -conduct of the witness
alluded to by the:Honourable Gentleman, as hay-
ing spiiken direspectfulfy of the lab.ouring Manu-
facturers. All that the wit aess meant -was, that
thedistreSs was not so great as was apprehended.
—With respect to the pottery, the nuniber of
crates exported within the- last year; a.moun-',edto
twenty-,three thousand more than: in the four preL.
Ceding years, and the. decrease which existed pre-
vionsly to that pericid, arose froth the non-impor-
tation to Ireland, in conSequenee of the miscon-
struction Of an Act of Parliament; by which a duty.
was claimed upon the article. If th'd 'Orders, in,
Council were repealed; and the Berlin and Milan
Decrees left to stand, America would hale. the ad-
vantage of the. carrying-trade to the North of En-
rope, and_Frauce would-be enabled to export-her
iron work, her linen, silks, cloth, &c. and to bring
back in return the raw materials, a circumstance
which. would conduce strongly to assist her in
rivalling our manufactures. We should in fact
by such.a step- assist to- the utmost of our power
in giving complete effect to the measures and the
policy ofFrance.. But the efficacy of the Orders
Council was to be seen, notwithstanding all re-
presentations to the contrary, ill their practical
effects upon the commerce of the enemy. It Was
a fact which could not be denied, that the ex-
ploits from 'France to America had decreased nine
millions from the. year 1804 to 1811. in the
Canada trade, .it . appeared upon the evidence of
Sir Alexander M'Keuzie, that the tonnage of
ships in 1604 amounted to 33,000, and in 1811,
to 116,000. He then went into b. minute re
capitulation and comparison of the evidence, from
which he inferred, that the Mediterranean trade
was
,greatly improved, that the South Amerfcan
trade was also improving, and that the injury sup-
posed to have been experienced in this latter
branch, arose merely, and applied exclusively to
speculative adventurers, who were obliged to sell
off immediately, at a loss. As to the shipping in-,
terests, which formed so great an object in the
consideration of this .question, he was convinced
that if the Orders in Council were to
-be repealed
to-morrow, they would not have one ship more
afloat than they had at present, but on.the contrary;
for the,inimediate tendency and operation of the
repeal would be, to throw one-third or one-fourth
of our carrying trade into the hands of -Ame-

rica. The result, therefore, of all the facts which
he had been able to collect, was, that with the

excel

►tion of that burst of trade td South Auieri-

ea Which took place 1809, and 1810,-the ship-
ping al:crest; were\never..sO prosperous as now.--
Four-fifths of the trade of Criaae;otv were in favour
lA.' the Orders in Council. It had been stated
.by
one of the witnesses, that the shipping„of Liver-
pool, a paat supposed to suffer pecaliarly under
the existing system, was.,fully employed ; and
noon
.a fair view of- the matter, that the number
had been doubled in the course of the
last twelve years. :The evidence,bore him.out in
stating, teat the trade to the South Of Europe
had increased in a. proportions to compensate for
What had been lost. in the North
,since the •adop-
tion of those measures, so that on a fair balance
the general commerce of the country .had suf-
fered nothing. . He had already :stated, athat
four-fifths of the Aferchants of Glasgow were
in • favour of -.lle.Ordera - To this he
Woultt add, taat a great part. of the trading, in-
terests of. Liverpool supported the same, that.
Bristol was unanimous in her -approbation'of the
policy by which they.were • dictated, and that a
large portion of the merchants of London main-
tained' the same. opinion. Mr. Glennie, of the
house of Glennie and Co. aid another, were the
only. witnesses from • that quarter who gave evi-
dence against the. Ordersin Council ; and irwas
to be observed, that that House had some. Ame-
rican Agencies which might have imperceptibly
influenced' their judgment:. In addition to the
bodies he had alreadyenumerated, he should not
neglect to'state that the whole body. Of the Ship-
ping interest Were against the rePeal: 'Upon the
the subject of the mistakes in the ;ranting of Li-
censes imputectito the Board of Trade, be should
content himself with barely stating that 'one :ef-
ror had occurred in the space of five • yeans, and
that the Board had manifested .everydispoaition
and
.anxiety to correct it. Upon the • whole,.. he
could assert, that if he felt that the repeal 'of
the Orders. in Council would he a benefit to the
country, there was na man living who 'would be
more willing to support it.- Blit•being.inipessed
with the opposite conviction, he felt it hiS duty
to resist the attempt.:..
Mr. A. BARI*I disclaimed the idea of imputing
any blame to the Right lion. Gentleman for the er-
rors commited.in the granting of licenses. He.did
not intend to go through every part of the evidence
as the Right Honourable Gentleman had, dine;
for if the importance of the subject bad not ,
al-
ready called the.attentron of the Mouse to such an
investigation; he despaired of impressing it in the
shape. of aa speech.- His endeavour Sho"uld be, to
point out here and there such points' of the
evi-
dence as were 'connected with the .gefieral princi=
pies embraced in the discussion: The Orders in
Council had now existed for several years; and
there 'was at present throughout the manufactura
ing districts, unexampled distress. They would
have first to consider; :whether this distress was
attributable to the. Orders in Council; and next,
whether, if they were *so attributable, ,there ex-
isted any benefits of ;pother kind to compensate
for the pressure ? The Right Honourable Gen-
tleman had shifted his grounds on different. occa-
sions, At one time it was a measure of retaliation;
at another of commercial objects; and. at another
of great political. views ; yet,' after having dwelt
upon the importance of these political viewa, 'he
bad entered into npthickg but a statement of com-
mercial ones, and traced their effect upon the sale
of iron, wool, and cotton. If' the Orders in
Council could be proved to be commercially inju-
rious, he did not see how in any proper sense it
could be considered, retaliatcry measure.. As to
the manufacturers, he would show how they were
alfaeted by the Orders in Council ; for though the
prevalence, of distress was undeniable, if that
tress could-not be connected with the measure in
question, they'would.shew 'nothing applicable to
the, present case. .I`ile..Onject which the Gentle-
mea.on the other side seemed to aim at in the in-
vestigation was that of puzzling the manufaetneers
examined at the bar as to the nature of the 9iders
in-Council; but looking-to the' real 6:teeth:kin 1:97
fore the Ilo;:ise,- he would oh ve, in the first
.in-
stance, that the evil arose the want of Ame-
rican intercourse, and thatthe want of American,
intercourse arose from the Ordta's in Conneil.—•
The Right Honourable. Gentleman had deSeribed
the witnesses as ignorant'manufacturerS„.who had
been .persuaded by others to believe that all the
evils arose from the Orders in Council-; bait he
,would begaleave to remind theM that the witnesses •
consisted of all the master namnfacttirers in the
kingdom, with- the exception Of -the -West of
England : they amounted to eighty: in' all; some
ofthem, employed three thou Sand. men, and few'
under two thousand; and they 'had' Manifested -a
particular 'degree of intelligence- and acuteness,
not only with.regardto their Own-business, but to
the general manufacturing interests of the cowl-
try. They had all stated the distreas of the pre-,
sent moment to be unexampled, and the men in
their einploynient to be all do reduced Wages, or
reduced wotk, which eanie to the - same thing ;,
and all-h4l concurred in yepreSenting the demand
from America not only to have ceased, belt to have
hurt the home trade, by bringing into it those
who were before employed in the foreign trade.—
They bad represented their whole Capital to exist
in stock, and :declared that they must turn off a
great number of hands : some a third, and some a
fourth of' those they employed,' unless the repeal
was decided on., The decision of the 'Tlouse' thai
night would effect the discharge or continuance of
Many thousand Manufacturers in their respective
lines. He did not say that this consideration
should stand in the way of any great national ob-
ject ; but a clear case should be made out before
the step could be resolved upon.' If his Majesty's
Government intended...to persevere in the same
system, he was sure that they would not discharge
their duty, inhless they adopted some strong ad-
ditional cautions in the interior of the country.—
It had been denied that the tumults, which they
must all regret, had any connection with the Or.-
ders in Council; but the evidence proved the con-
trary. in general where there was most distress,

their; was most disturbance, and,the distress was

owing to the want of an American market ; he
would allow, that the West of England was not
distressed, and it appeared, upon the testimony
of Mr. Wood, that there was no seal-City experi-
enced in that quarter, the consequence of which
was, that there was no disturbance. In the Me-

tropolis there was no disposition to riot, for
though there was sor 'venience felt, the

me incot

ge-

tti ^ ~'

neramass of the population was' not mane 1.-:co
ing. Tit ;ircueu;i.:nce of keening up alien .
force in the interior should of itself, setting esi e
the commereiel importance of the (ow than; indur'e
Government to consider maturely. Xd had cen-
curred in the opinion that if the American trade
was again revived,, emplo'yment woUld again ;e-
-turn. theo took a view of the different
branches of trade which were represented as like=
lye to be injurod by the repeal, and -ridichiled the
idea of this, country being 1-Craid. of France as a
rival inAier trade. Another important consiclera;,
tion was the rising manufactures of „America', fos-,
tered by,the suspension of her commercial
• course with4thia-coeutry. It li"ad been declared
by a respectable, Witness at the bar, that, in his
opinion, if the Nen-importation Act continued for
three years, the trade in cotton goods would never •
he renewed. As to the- pretensions of Atnerica,
he believed that they did not go further
than the repeal of the• Orders in CoUncil. Let
that 4(be tried: - If Anierica should advaine
any unreasonable proposition, he would Ine, tile
last man to, conciliate her- by the sacri ot na-
tional.. right 'or national houottr. 'referred,
hoWever, to the correspondenet between Mr.
Mtinro and Mr. Foster, to show tlen the Ameri-'-
can Government had dec -red thatif the Orders. in
Council were repealed, the ExeCutive ,ievernment
of the United States' had,' no option left" them' by
the. ilicg,Hature,, but that the Non-iniportetion
Act must•cease of cOurse. _He expressed his re
, greet that thealloblleLord had refnsed the
correspoadence to 'Which .albided tObe.
laid Onahe table. Advertitig tothe great e4ence:
to thwerinnent; occasioned lay'tlit: Orders in Coin-
.
,cif; be epre:esed his :dotilatS whether the Cowmen-
se..riat-Geaeral in Portngal cinihl -supply the -Bri-
. tish ateny with corn, naless the -Orders in Cooneil
were repealed. •in the present: state of-exchaanee,
in Consequence of our not being able to return
. af?y thing to America hut specie. for the Corn with
which She suppiidti our armies 'on coreiga service,
two millions a' year were lost to GoVernm ent. in
addition to this was the expellee attendant upon
the military 'operationa in the British colonies of
North America, although if America were serious-
ly provoked to war, rio .free that we could send,
wouid for three months be .ahle to protect,- those'
colonies ; and itt the event of their fall, what
would beeome of the North American trade ? In I
whatever point of view, therefore, he canSidered
the tiubject, as- it appeared to hith,-Greatritairt
Was pursuing a-niest unwise policy .—She Was saL
crificina-b the. substantial conimercial advantages -of.
a trade with America, for an object ' which :she
couldnevet obtain—that of forcing her trade with
the Continent. '
- Lord t3,OTLEREAGH on such an important sub-
ject felt anxious to offer to the House the reasons
which appeared to- him conclusive against the
Address. He lamented the precipitation of the
-Honourable 'and Learned Gentleman in bringing
forward this motion—a precipitation injurious to
his own cause. He deprecated any interference on •
the part of the I-louse hi a question of great na-
tional importance, involving iniquestionably com-
mercial considerations of the most serious nature,
but mixed with Considerations of maritime right.
It was certainly not out of the absolute' provtoce
ofParliament to interfere; on such- an occasion ;
but it had always been that from which they had
been abhorrent, pending a negociation on a deli-*
cite subject, -to dictate to the Executive Govern-.
meat the course which it ought to pureine. He
admitted that the Honourable and Learned Gen-
tleman had made out a grave case of national dis-
tress, as affecting the manufacturers of the coun-
try. He further admitted that there was reason-
able rruund to believe that if the American market
lot opened Within a limited period, the pros-
sine would be increased. But stAl he hoped that
Parliament would not allew their imaginations to
wander. so widely with the Honourable and Learn,
e:! Gentleman, as to conceive. that the general;
Contitierce and n.anufactures of the emnire were in
a state o decay and perishment. He oy no Ineans
wished to understate the pressure on those of our -
manufacturers who had been accustomed to ex-
port to America. He felt acutely for their'dis-,
tressea, and he declared that he had never . met
with More fair and liberal men than the
sent by those manufacturers to represent
'their case to Patliament. lle conceded 'to the
Hon oun!b. le and Leaene Gentlemial, that if Great:
.Britain revoked her Orders in 'Council, America
might be disposed to abi-intte her Non-importa-:
tion Act ; but he contended, that on retrospect
of the past, le was by no means preparedto,say,
that it •...oetild have been-wise to have kept.posses-e
si_on of the American market, by abstaining from,
those measures ; an abstinence which would hays
exposed the commerce;:of this country to all the
evils with which it hacikeen threatened by France.
In justice, however, Great Bfitoin ought to have'
retained possession of the American market. Not-,
withstanding the system- which:she had. adopted
towards France—a system :which, he admitted, was
not'justifiable on principles 'of commercial policy;
but which Was in.it completely justifiable on, the
principle' in which itoriginated; namely, the nrin.
eiple, of coercing Fiance, aid driving her front
the system of misiule which she had so exten-
sively exercised. As directed against France,
this slestent -had obtained its object. Never was
country more commercially depressed than
France. By the official documents of the French
Government, it appeared that the whole, extent
of the manufactures and produce of that country,
consumed internally, as well as exported, did not
equal the simple exports of, other nations. In
the year before last, they did not exceed
'54,000,0001. sterling, while ours amotinted to
66,000,0301, Even with t}e loss of the American
market (e-hich .lie contended we ought not to
• hare lost), let the House compare the situation
in which the British Empire was, with that
which it might have been, but for the Orders in
Council. This country (with the exception of
last year\ the deficiency 'of ,which was occa-
sioned by temporary causes) exhibited to the
world a spectacle of 'a nation successfully strug-
gling amidst the efforts of war, and rising
in wealth and commercial prosperity. Indeed
a, great part of •the deficiency of the last year
was occasioned by the preceding extraordinary
and even unnatural prosperity. With that excep•
tion, the commerce of the country, all hut that
which related to America, had increased in