The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-05 00:00:00

SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, F',EBRUARY 5, 1847.

622 l permile would pay 3it per cent., and pay an aggregate
total
of 16,0001. But he tales the Arbroath and Forfar at
'illy 9,0031. per mile, consequently, taking tl.at as the basis,
r deducting money paid to Government, a net return of
7021..__ would give 1 per cent. profit ; 8001. would give 2 per
'4t• ; 998/. would give 3 per cent ; 1,055/. would give 4 per
Went* ; 1,1551. would give 6 per cent. ; 1,2291. would give
'.Per cent. ; 1,335/. would give 8 per cent. ; 1,4231. would
Blue 9 per cent. ; and 1,521/. would give 10 per cent. Such
e instrument as this could not fail of going to the length of
improving the country, and bringing capital into Ireland, and
,1111 that into use that already existed there, while the poor
ythey
and the county cess would be greatly relieved, since
would not employ only the 110,000 labourers now en-
, on the useless works, but would employ upwards of 200,000
b the construction of these rails ays. He did not wish to overstate
the advantages of this measure, but he did say, that if railways
twenty
be constructed, as had been shown for 170/. an acre at
~ years' purchase, the advantage was amazingly increased,
a_.c, that the funds of the country would rise. He had assumed
hl6
date, on the calculation, that these railways would cost
• 6001. or 1,500/. per mile, whereas, he believed, that they
leen:ll,d be made for at least 1001. lower, and he believed that at
, 300 miles of ground had been already purchased. This
w `
it' give an expenditure for the payment of land of
the MOW., and that would form another sum to be added to
se which he had already paid, and which would swell the
amount,_ of 240,000/., which would come to the relief of the
He now came to that portion of the measure which
16 affected the public revenue. He had given an expenditure of
~Ilit)0,0001. on a security of 8,000,0001., to make 1,500
the s
of railroad, and it was alleged, by a Member of
; Government the other night, that this would dis-
tl/ " Commerce and disturb the money market.
e did not think that the expenditure of 1,900,000/. per an-
won could have that effect. He had consulted several gentle-
men, who ought to be well informed, as to the state of the
Ong-market, and, amongst others, the Member for West
Essex, and all had agreed that it would net have that effect.
'Did the expenditure of 15,000,0001. in 1835, which was raised
for thethe compensation of the West Indian slave-owners disturb
money-market? They contrived to pay 3,000.000/. in the
yearhe "35' We found that during the year before, the price of
in Three per Cent. Consols was 89/. The day before this
price was paid, the price of Consols was 901. 155., and the
"e0-`e °I Reduced Three per Cents. was 90/. 12s. 6d. The
881trect
le was taken for the Reduced Three per Cents. at
The and at 75/. for the Three per Cent. Console.
Consols
eole e
or the contract was taken at 90/. 21. 6d., the
being 13,r. 7d. above par with the long annuities, so
that the whole of the contract was taken 11. 4s. 3d. to the
ti!antage of those whe had contracted the loan for 15,000,000/.
id this at all affect the funds ? Certainly not ; for en the
day
after the contract was completed Consols stood at 91, and
yearn~ that followed they had improved to 2/.175. 6d., he
in the year after that to 41. 14s. Had they not had the
experience of the lean of 15,000,0001. ? And it should be
remembered that this money was not raised to be disbursed in
the country, in the digging of canals, the formation of rail-
ways, or the building of mills ; but was all sent out of it. But
the
Money which he proposed to raise was to be expended in
relieving the eistrese and in rewarding the industry within the
Lord Bacon had made a just remark—that " muck
roust%,,, be spread before it could fertilise ;" and it was the same
with industry. They had expended seventy millions a year in
s.ca Rlpport of foreign war, and to uphold the power of the
Into te, and he allowed that such a course might depress the
of ;et) market, but then the whole of the money was sent out
(Hear, country without their being a single pound returned. ,
hear.) But did the expenditure of , 7,0000001.,
c had in bygone years been employed in the
corking of silver mines depress the market. Did the capital
engaged in the silver mines of Boletus, in their Candonga,
Cats Branca, their Brazilian and their Capiago Association,
44d used even for the working of mines in the West Indies, de-
rees the money market? But he would not go through the
cog list of the twenty-three mining companies through whose
agency this capital was sunk in the year 1825, never, never to
eturned.—( Cheers.) He thought that upwards of
3,000,0; 0/. had been sent to relieve the necessities of Ohio
and Kentucky, and where were they ? Where were the mil-
lions that had been sent to Portugal ? and the more than two
millions that had been sent to Spain ? and which were only
now to be seen in the funds of Passive and Deferred Annui-
ties. Had there not been immense sums spent in America in
rattwaya, and did they not all realise the outlay ? for
h
u 4. believed that there was not one among them which
not repay the money expended upon these. Yet all
these, so far as Great Britain was concerned, were dis-
bursements out of pocket, and disposed of out of the country.
441,1 t he must beg leave to say, that whilst he was calling
°Pen his own country to lend to Ireland 16,000,000
Sterling at a reasonable rate of interest, without any
charge or expense, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
when he advanced to Ireland a loan to be employed on
Public works, did not stand in the same position as the
private capitalist. The private capitalist was restricted
to the bare interest he received for his money, while the
public officer derived many other advantages besides his
interest. When they looked back to the last four
sears, and reflected what an expenditure of 13,000,0001.
a year in railway enterprise had done in increas-
_ ing the revenue of the country—in the excise,
in the customs duties, in the consumption
of beer, of malt, of spirits, and of tobacco—
peculiarly the consumption of railway labourers he
thought they must be of opinion with him. that in-
directly the State would be a sleeping partner in the
advantages to be derived from Irish railways. They had
it stated in evidence by Mr. Peto, that at first he found
drunkenness amongst his men was a great drawback in
the completion of his contracts, and he accordingly re-
stricted each man in his employ to a gallon of strong
beer a day.—(Laughter.) Now one gallon of strong
beer gave a quarter of a peek of malt consumed by one
railway labourer ; and, setting aside what his wife and
family might consume—setting aside what came to the
eeivenue in tea, tobacco, and sugar, he paid
51 a year in the excise duties upon his beer
alone. Well, let him see how this would work
out, up,an looking at a calculation of the
excise duties in Scotland and Ireland, he found that
in Scotland the excise duties gave 1/. Os. 3d. per head
upon the whole population, whilst in Ireland there was
only 3s. lOid. paid per head. This, after deducting the
soap returns, and such duties as were not paid in Ire•
land, gave a difference upon the excise in favour of
Scotland of 16s. lid. per head. Now he was not going
to pretend to say, as was calculated by Mr. Stanley, of
the Board of Works, some ten years ago, that the effect
of making 1,500 miles of railway in Ireland would be to
bring the population of the counties up to the level ot
Scotland, but he thought he might say with great
confidence, that out of 550,000 labourers, 110,000 would
ne raised to the average level of Scotland ; and if
they calculated that number at les. IRI. it would give
an annual bum of 440,0001., which divided into three and
a-half per cent. interest would represent a capital ot
12,600,000/. Well, but still there were the Customs'
duties. It was not unfair to suppose that the construe•
tion of a railway would increase the Customs as well as
the Excise duties. Ile was aware that there was great
difficulty in getting at the Customs' duties of Ireland and
Scotland because is. large proportion of them were paid
in this country, but an estimate had been made, not by
himself but by an ex,sellent authority upon such matters,
and from that estimate it would appear that the gross
amount of custom paid in Scotland averaged 13s. per head.
While the gross amount paid in Ireland only averaged
Ss. 20,, making a difference of 6s. 911 The increase
of the customs would,. he calculated, represent an annual
Sum of 202,000/ , wheels., at 31 per cent., would give a
aura of six millions sterling. Well, then, if he calcu-
lated, and it would be perfectly fair to do so, that the
employment would continue after the railway was com-
pleted and in full vigour, he would have a right to say
that there would be'an increase in the revenue of no less
tnan 642,000/, which. at 31 per cent., would give a ca-
pital of nine millions sterling. Now he be-
lieved there were. good grounds for thinking
that, after the ex ecution of these various lines
°l!railway, the en sployment would be continued
the improvemen is which the railway would
introduce. It was et dculated that ten men were em-
ployed per mile in maintaining the permanent way, ex-
clusive of the artificert; engaged in building car r
while it
Was estimated that the improvements that naturally
grew out of agricult ur e from the construction of a rail-
Way would absorb :tile men per mile. But when they
recollected what rail ways had done in this contry—when
they looked at the large towns which had grown up
upon the South•We stern Railway, and the extension of
Southampton, which had since the opening of the railway
nearly doubled its. size and its docks—it was not
too much to suppose that every mile of a new railway I
Would absorb sixty of the men who had been engaged
in its construction.— -(Hear, hear.) Take the railway,
for instance, to Va, lencia harbour. They had the evi-
dence of Mr. Walk( sr,' the Admiralty engineer, that
sooner or later Ira lencia harbour must become the
American packet at: ition of this country. They had
also the authority of Lord Liverpool, who said—little
thinking at the time' that railways would be carried to
the extent they had been—about the year 1827, that
Valencia must evente aelly become the point of departure
for America. Before, however, the prediction could
come to pass, a rai oty of one hundred and ninety-
five miles in length w ould have to be made, and innu-
merable would be the t owns and improvements it would
give rise to. It might Ise said—he knew it would be urged
hreuht crutches, Irish oby some—that if Irish ,nterprise could not walk without
altr
dayish enterpreeei rise e must be allowed to fall ; but
a communication
oafnLdilsviearpncohole,etoenreLf.tvl ao early prom ,tersoffrtohme
LMirv.el‘rlpoososl
.
been for a loan of 1001. Railway,
to the effect, that had it not
of that day, he belie ,40/t.hadvanced by the Government
would have the Liverpool and Manchester
Railway never paid.—(Cheers.) But
there was another ar, stiment that would be used. He
had heard, not in that House it was true, but elsewhere,
that whenever loans were made to Ireland they never
were repaid. Gross per ignorance never was displayed
h
than was displayed by those who had m
statement. True it v vas that one million sterling which
was advanced had nes, 'et- been returned, but unfortunately
this was not owing to 71 disposition to repudiate the debt,.
but to certain religious; prejudices which could not be
got rid of.—(llear, bear.) They had it upon the
authority of Lord Des on, that so far from the loans to
Ireland not having bee n repaid, the truth wus it had been
the custom of Englar,cl to lend her money at usury
prices, but still even at these prices two-thirds of all
the grants hail been returned.hin the A. circumstance
days
about the Agricultural Bank of Ireland, whose head
at
quarters were held in Cork. It appeared th
no less a sum than 900,0001. was out at interest
upon the joint -notes of two tenants together,
greater part of them in sums not exceeding
201., but to the astonishment of all the bankers and
assignees of the company, when the affairs carne to be
wound up, such was the good faith of the little people
connected with the concern, that not a shilling wag lost.
—(Cheers.) lle had another instance of the good faith
of Irishmen in metteers of loans, which had been re-
lated to him by Mr. Prosser, the engineer. Mr. Prosser
• some years ago, went to the counties of Limerick, Wa-
terford, and Cork, to construct wooden railways, but
the labourers were so ignorant that he could not get
them to work at first. Mr. Prosier, however, reasoned
with them, and, out by one, they saw the utility of the
iuvention, and readily entered upon the work. Some
of them, however, were in so wretched a condition, being
without clothing to cover their nakedness. that many
of them applied to him for loans of 205., ess., and 30'.,
which he readily advanced ; and in no one instance
was the money not repaid.—(Hear, hear.) Those
who said, then, that if they made their loans to
the Irish people, they would be lending money that

would never be repaid, were scandalous calumniators.—
(Cheers.) He had forgotton to state, that, originally his
intention was to propose that the repayment of the money
should commence seven years after a certificate should
be signed that the railway was in operation, and the
whole to be paid from that time in instalments, running
to the end of twenty yo ars. Whin, however, the interest
and profit of money was paid, to all intents and purposes,
the debt did not exist, and, therefore, it did not matter
when the money was repaid, or how long it took to repay
it; hut upon consulting with the monied interest, he was
told that the repayment of the money by instalments would
create confusion in the dividends, and therefore it would
be much more advisable if it were specified that the
money should be repaid in thirty years.—(Hear, hear.)
He had heard at different times that there was danger of
outrage in Ireland. They had heard a story oftentimes
repeated, and as often refuted, that the peasantry were
buying arms, with which to rise up in rebellion. He,
for one, denied it. When he read accounts of ten bodies
out of eleven persons, lying dead in one house—of dogs
and swine wallowing over their dead bodies—of the
dead being denied the common decencies of a burial, to
save the price of the coffin to sustain the living—he
could not help expressing his surprise that they had
been so long patient.—(Cheers.) He could blame them
not ; and so far from expressing discontent at anything
they might have done under their long suffering, he
said let them rather till the bellies of the starving Irish
people with good meat—wholesome mutton, good bread,
good strong beer—and fill their pockets with Eng-
lish gold. Let them assist to cover their beds with the
blankets of Witney—to clothe the men with the fustians
of Manchester—their wives and daughters with the
cotton prints of Stockport, and ribbons of Coventry, and
with his head he could answer for the loyalty of the
Irish people.—(Cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—Sir, I can have no hesitation in offer-
ing my tribute to the patriotism which has induced the Noble
Lord to bring forward this motion, and to the ability which he
has displayed, both in framing his plan and explaining it to the
House, as well as to the zeal which he has shown for the benefit
of the people of Ireland, and in behalf of that sympathy which,
as he truly asserts, must be the best cement of the union of the
two kingdoms.—(Hear, hear.) While Ido riot hesitate to
pay that tribute to my Noble Friend, I could wish that his plan
had been such a one that I could at once have agreed to its
proposition, and adopted it in aid of the measures which her
Majesty's Government have brought forward for the relief of
Ireland. I can assure my Noble Friend that I entirely believe
in the sincerity with which he has asserted that his plan was
intended to aid and assist, not to interfere with and hinder, the
plans which we have introduced ; and, entirely believing in
that sincerity, no absurd or petty feelings on my part that this
plan is not the original plan of the Government, but had
come from a member of a different party, could,
under any circumstances, induce me to refrain from
adopting it.—( Hear, hear.) But, in fact, the matter which
my Noble Friend has brought forward—though not the plan
he has to-night proposed—has been for some time under the
consideration of her Majesty's Government ; and we were
obliged, therefore, to look at it in its different aspects, with a
view to the adoption of some plan with respect to railroads
which might be useful to the country, or which might be
suited to the present state of destitution and want, I may say
famine, in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Now, in considering such
a plan, I would say but a few words with regard to its fitness as
a plan suited to the general state of Ireland. My Noble
Friend near me, the First Commissioner of Woods and Forests
(Lord Morpeth), some years ago, brought forward a plan
with respect to railways which I thought then, and still think,
was one that would be of essential advantage to Ireland. The
plan proceeded on a totally different principle from
It w thaent t em-
bodied in the Bill of my Noble Friend opposite. on
the principle of railways being formed by Government, and
conducted by persons under their control, the amount thus
expended to produce four per cent. interest, any additional '
in-
terestin-
to be applied either to the extension of railwaysor
diminution of debt upon those existing. According to
that plan the object would have been attained
which many may still think of great importance,—iz.,
Government control over the railways of that part of the
United Kingdom with respect to the conveyance of stores, and
with respect to the direction of the lines, an thelaces to
which they should go.—(Hear, hear.) In and l these respects
the Government Commissioners thought it would be advanta-
geous to have them under the control of Government ; and
many persons indeed think that the plan adopted in France in
this respect is superior to that followed in this country.—
(Hear, hear.) But that is not the plan of my Noble Friend.
TI-stre have, indeed, been periods in the course of some years
when 15,000,0001. of money might have been required to ex-
ecute lines of railway over several hundred miles of country ;
but, of course, any such plan as that would not be now so re-
quisite as it was when these railways commenced. Speaking
of the proposal of the Noble Lord as a general plan, I would
say that it is not advisable for Government to step out of its
way to interfere with the general adaptation of capital to rail-
ways, arid to favour one set of companies, having set on foot
particular railways rather than others.—( Hear, hear.) The
very instances my ?
Noble Friend adduced of the North British
Railway being at 401. premium, and the Great Southern and
Western Railway being at 6 per cent. discount, were just il-
lustrations, showing how inexpedient it would be for Gendovern-
ment to interfere.—( ea. ) What my Noble Fri has
quoted is just the rate of the market ; it is the rate which
people laying out money think is the specific value of the
shares of the one company and of the other. Now, for
Government to interfere so as to raise the price of the hares
of one company, and thus give them an advantage in the
market, and to divert capital from other railways, the one set
of undertakings having only Government assistance to support
them, would, in ordinary circumstances, be a departure from
the functions of Government, and an undue interference with
the application of capital, favouring certain parties to the de-
triment of ethers, where both were equally deserving.—( Hear.)
But the present plan is brought forward, and, I think, will fall
to be considered, in its application to the present distressed
state of Ireland. It is, therefore, with a view to the present
distressed state of Ireland that we are now to consider it.
Some time ago the railway companies of Ireland had a meeting
in Dublin, when they agreed to make a representation to the
Lord-Lieutenant. The Lord-Lieutenant transmitted that re-
presentation to me, and it was to this effect :—Supposing the
railway Acts which were passed in 1845-6 to require 15,000,0001.
to execute the railroads which they severaly authorised, that the
Government in three years should advance 5,000,0001., the rail-
way companies engaging to advance the other 10,000,0001. Now
that was not the plan of my Noble Friend, though it rested
essentially on the same principle. We madbser inquiry asstoo tod
i the
effect of this proposition ; and let nse ove, we n
the position of Laving before us the expenditure of large
sums of money, partly on loan, partly on grant, from the
Treasury of the empire, in order to alleviate the extreme dis-
tress prevailing in Ireland. We could not, of course, suppose
that there was a boundless mine of wealth at our disposal;
and we were bound to consider, seeing that the demands
upon us must be large, and indeed could not fail to be large,
in what manner the means at our command could be applied
to the relief of Ireland, the wants of which were most urgent
and most pressing.—(llear, hear.) New, my Noble Friend
can have no difficulty in agreeing with me, after the horrible
scenes to which he adverted towards the end of his speech,
that what was most distressing in that country was the want
of food, especially in a number of the most destitute and most
remote parts of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) But the application
of money to the purposes of these railway companies, to the
formation of railways, could not meet that particular object.
( Hear.) It may be, and, indeed, there can be no doubt of the
fact, that a railway is of great advantage to the country
through which it passes. I can agree with the Noble
Lord as to those advantages ; without entering into his
calculations, for those calculations I certainly shall not
dispute when I recollect that my Noble Friend has had
the assistance of the Hon. Member for Sunderland and of Mlar.
Laing in drawing them up. Without disputing those calcu-
tions, I perfectly agree with him as to the ultimate benefits to
be derived from railways. But the question I am considering
is, how the application of a large sum of money, given by the
Treasury, is to relieve those who are immediately pressed by
destitution'—(Hear.) It is obvious the first thing railway
companies do—for on this point I examined some of those who
waited on me as a deputation—the first thing they do when a
railway is to be constructed, is to go to certain contractors, to
get them to contract for certain parts of the line. I asked
what those contractors did, and whether they had any control
over them as to the persons to be employed. They said they
had no control over this matter ; these contractors went to
sub-contractors, who had the employment of the labourers,
thus removing from the railway company by two degrees those
who were immediately employed in making the line. I asked
what conditions they made with those contractors as regarded
the parties to be employed; and they said that the condi-
tion was that they should be able.bodied men, and that after
the first two or three weeks spent at the trade, they should
not have less than is. 6d. a day, hut no further agreement
was made. Now, it is obvious that if the Government were
to advance money to the railway companies, those companies
would contract with contractors, these again with cub-con-
tractors, which sub-contractors would engage the labourers for
the line ; of course, engaging only able-bodied men—those fit
to do their work. In the next place, they would engage them
only at the time when they wanted them, and at the particular
place where they required their labours. If there was a village
in great distress, perhaps in some distant part of the country,
of course they would not consider that they had anything to do
with the distress and destitution in that villago.—( Hear, hear.)
The old men and the women of a district, whose labour was of
no avail, would not be employed in such work, even though
they were starving ; they would not come within the province
of these contractors, who would naturally employ those persons
only whose labour was worth the money given them. There-
fore, it appeared to us, that for the purpose of relieving distress,
employment on railways, considering the persons who would be
employed, was not the best mode that could be adopted. In the
next place, looking at the map, we found, what it was natural to
expect, that the counties through which those railways passed
ed
were the least distressed in Ireland; they were the counties whi
were most flourishing in times of prosperity, and which suffered
least in times of distress. Therefore,o the systemcountry of
that are
railroad
labour does not apply to those parts f the
chiefly directed.—(Hear, hear.) This matter of assisting particularly distressed, and to which
.our attention ought to b e
rail-
roadsment ;h beenaasnd
thereunder e tlte
severalconsideration s
ionf
tthhee f oarm rest'
pGr
eosve enrtne
d
last year, particularly one in April, in which pee Lords of the
Treasury under the late Government gave their answers to
applications from railway companies. In the paper I have re-
ferred to they said :—" Acquaint the parties that my Lords do
not consider it advisable to make special advances to railway
companies who have undertaken to make railways on prvate
account, exclusively for individual advantage ; that it is open
to those companies to raise money by calls on their subscribers,
or by loans ; and that, on the application to the
undertakers of the
commis-
sioners for Exchequerotbleo?ans, their claim to receive a loan from
the public funds o
well as the present, maturelyerfaedse,
I have understood ill be
same conditions and securities. as the
Now, works
of the same description w
duly considered." 'sv, I believe the late Government, as
which induced themtoi
efororrsud the late Chancellor of the Exchequer
from those I have now stated taessn'tteihrlee
considered those applications.
that they were so haven reasonsoos ne
.o
notdlotu
itedi t. eoy
tdifferent
appear reasons
by which the distress cOonledebteo railways were the best means
the distress at presentbe existing in to them that the allowance
relieved.lreland. N wNiothblereFspreiecitidt,os
tahsathtelYiehri caemmoldonthaorfdleytoppiroLyimmiesoet
calculations mayeld o accurate;
twhen
ht
hel thinkspoke heer
wouldo such a great
1,500 miles of railways and sixty men employed on each mile.
Of course, parts of the line would be sooner finished than
others.
Lord G. BENTINCK had calculated 200 per mile, but
took silty as an average.
Lord J. RUSSELL thought the difference immaterial.
With respect to another matter, great inconvenience had een
found from railway works going on for a time, and then alto-
gether ceasing, in consequence of the railway company finding
it advisable to do so. It is therefore impossible that the
persons who are in the greatest destitution, and who are
spread all over the country in the south and west, could de-
rive any material advantage from the expenditure of this
money. You may call the present works useless, if you will,
and no doubt they would he useless, except for the purpose of
giving wages to the men who are employed on them, and who
get those wages for the supply of their wants. And the system
proposed now is a system for giving to those persona amount.

ing to 550,000, the means by which they could purchase food.
This seems to me to be the chief object you ought to aim at.
There are other objects of a more permanent nature ;
but the
present object is to do in Ireland what you do in England, by
means of the poor-i ates, in a time of distress. When that
pressure on the poor-rate comes, you do not ask whether the
persons employed are employed at useful work or not. Your
object is to give them food to maintain themselves in life.
Now, this is an object towards which the railway system can
do very little.—( Hear, hear.) With respect to the general
improvement of Ireland, I agree generally that the establish-
ment of railroads iu Ireland would be of immense advantage,
and I do hope to see railroads established in that country.—
( Hear, hear.) Nor do I say altogether that in every case public
assistance ought to be refused ; but this I say, that having a
case of extreme destitution to provide for, I do not think it
would be wise to give 16,000,0001. of the public money to
the promotion of railroads. Ido not believe that it would be a
wise expenditure ; and, considering the vast demands upon us,
if we do so we shall be obliged to check other expenditure more
immediately necessary.—( Hear, hear.) I shall not oppose the
bringing in of the Bill.—( Cheers.) I have understood, from Mr.
Speaker, that there is no objection in pointof form to the Bill,
provided' it does not introduce money clauses, that would re-
quire a previous committee. Ido not oppose the introduction
of the Bill; but let my Noble Friend understand me, so
that I may not be accused afterwards, as I hope I never
shall be accused, of deception.—(Hear, hear.) My opinion
is, that it would not be wise for the Government to adopt
this scheme ; but when we are asked to go into Committee
for the purpose of voting money in pursuance of this object,
I think that there will be but two courses fur the Government
to pursue—either to adopt the scheme entirely as their own,
and make themselves responsible for it, and carry it through
as their own; or, declining to be any party to the scheme, to
refuse to give their assent to the proposal of my Noble Friend.
—( Hear, hear.) When a grant of money is proposed from
the Treasury, the responsible Ministers of the Crown are
obliged to take certain steps regarding it, and when the proper
time comes for doing so on this occasion, I cannot say that I
shall be prepared to assume the responsibility of giving an assent
to the plan of the Noble Lord.— (Hear, hear.)
Mr. B. OSBORNE came there that evening prepared to
support the Noble Lord's raotion• He thought the Noble
Lord who had given his voice against the Bill had not acted
fairly, in allowing the Bill to be printed, and then opposing it
in Committee. Now, the Hon. Member for Lynn was enti-
tled to greater praise than any other Member, for having brought
forward a great measure for the redemption of the country.
The Noble Lord at the head of the Government, although he
said that the subject of Irish railways had been under their
consideration, did not say that he was prepared to bring in
any measure on the subject. The Noble Lord concluded his
speech by contradicting the very first proposition with which
he commenced his speech. He said that he did not think it
fair to advance so much money for the purposes of railways,
because it would interfere with private enterprise, and then he
concluded by saying that at a future time the state might per-
haps render some assistance to the railways. The Irish
people expected that the Government had been put in their
places not to filch little schemes from individual Members of
the House—a suggestion as to the poor-law from one Hon.
Member, soup kitchens from a Quaker, and so on. They
ought to come forward and adopt some bold and com-
prehensive plan, like that suggested by the Noble Lord the
Member for Lynn. He would not sit down without expressing
his great admiration for the great talent- displayed by him in
the very able and practical speech which he had delivered that
evening.—(Cheers.)
Mr. ROEBUCK was quite surprised at the course pursued
by the Noble Lord at tne head of the Government. He said
that there were insuperable objections to the measure of the
Noble Lord the Member for Lynn, and yet he had allowed the
Bill to be introduced and read a first time, reserving to himself
the liberty to oppose it in some future stages. He (Mr.
Roebuck) objected to the scheme in 'inane, and he would tell
the House why he objected to it. The Noble Lord had pro-
nosed to spend 16,000,0001. in making railroads in Ireland.
Now, in ordinary times that work was left to private enterprise,
and the capital requisite for such works was always obtained
from the surplus wealth of the people. The Noble Lord the
Member for Lynn proposed not to ask the rich to come forward
with their money, but he asked the Noble Lord at the head of
the Government to tax the people of England, in order
that they might apply the produce of that talreland. He objected to the people of England
being taxed, for the purpose of employing their capital in any
eculation whatever. He was of opinion that the people of
England should be taxed for the purposes of the Government,
but they ought not, under any consideration, to be taxed for
the
purposes of speculation. He had a right to ask every
English representative if he would allow his constituents to be
taxed for such a purpose, and to such an extent, as that pro-
posed by the Noble Lord. They were already told that
9,000,K0/. would be required for the measures of the Govern-
ment. From a return that had been laid upon the table of the
House, it appeared that presentments had also lately been made
to the tune of 2,500,0001., and a Bill was about to be brought
in to sanction that expenditure. Let Hon. Members just add
these things together, and see how the matters stood. There
was the 9,000,0001. already proposed, and the 2,500,0001.
about to be sanctioned—that would make a total of
11,500,000/. Then the Noble Lord came forward and pro-
posed to take 26,000,000/., that would make together, on the
lowest calculation, 37,500,0001. The ordinary sum collected
for the purposes of the revenue during the year was about
55,000,000 i., and more than one-half of that sum
had to be placed to the credit of the national
debt ; so that the case stood thus:—There were
8,000,000 of persons requiring for their own benefit a sum
equal to more than one half of the whole expenditure of the
Government. This was all very fine; Gentlemen might talk
of comprehensive schemes, or accuse others of malignity or
mendacity and ignorance, if they attempted to make any state-
ments or express any opinions upon the subject. But the
question to be considered was, what would the people of Eng-
land say upon the subject when the tax-gatherer came round?
—( Hear, hear.) The state of England ought not to be over-
looked. In the very constituency which he had the honour to
represent, there were persons in such a wretched state that they
were obliged to tear up their clothes and those of their children
into rags, and sell them as such at 2d. per lb., in order to ob-
tain a meal, bnt when such tales of suffering and want were
told of the poor wretches in Somersetshire, they excited no sym-
pathy in the hearts of. Hon. Members, but the moment a tale of
Irish distress was brought forward the House resounded with loud
cheers. The Noble Lord pledged for the truth of what he said,
he (Mr. Roebuck) did not know what value others might
attach to it—his own head. He pledged his head that he
would fill the bellies of all the Irish with good mutton and
sound ale, clothe all the men with the clothes of Manchester,
and bedizen their wives with the ribbons of Coventry ; and, in
addition to all this, fill their pockets with English gold.—
(Laughter.) He would ask, in sober seriousness, was it not a
sad exhibition to be made by any person in that House, and who
was supposed to know the state of the population of England ?
was it not extraordinary for any Hon. Member to get up in
that House, and say that he would feed the Irish people with
" mutton and ale" when the English people were not able to
get either the one or the other ?—(Hear, hear.) What would
be said if some Scotch Member were to get up and say, the
people of Scotland must be fed at the expense of the English
people with " mutton and ale?" If the Government should
once step aside from its proper duty, he would like to know
where they were to stop? He intended, as an English repre-
sentative, the moment any Hon. Member proposed a grant for
Ireland, to demand the same for England.—(Hear, hear.) It
was but fair.— (Cheers.) He was glad to hear that, be-
cause he thought Hon. Members agreed with him; and if it be
true what he had said, then the end would be a general scram-
ble for property; it would be like throwing all the property into
one " Hotch-potch," and then having a general scramble for
the whole of it.—(Hear, hear.) It was quite clear that the
measure was not adapted to meet the existing distress of the
country; the whole scheme was nothing more than a landlord's
scheme, in order to enable them to obtain higher rents for
their property, or to sell to the Government for enormous
prices.—("No, no," and ironical cheers.) Hon. Members
might say, " No, no," but he was determined, if the Bill
should ever go so far as the Committee, he would propose a
clause to the effect that no Irish landlord, being a Member of
either House of Parliament, should receive a single fraction
of the money to be advanced for the purchase of land belong-
ing to them through which the State-made railways should
pass.—( Hear, hear.) He was sorry that the Noble Lord had
not at once refused his assent to the measure. He was
anxious that the division should have taken place that night,
and so have got rid of the measure at once and for ever. The
Noble Lord at the head of the Government would one day
come down and say that he could not support the measure,
and the whole concern would go off at once like the snuff of
a candle; and the Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn, would
have the gratification of having made a very long three hours'
speech, of indulging in the brief glorification of having proposed
a measure bold and comprehensive to all intents and purposes.
The Noble Lord could not move another step without the per-
mission of the Government, and he moot cordially hoped that
the Government would at once put a stop to the further pro-
gress of the measure. The House, he was sure, might have
been much better employed than in listening for the last three
hours to a proposition which every body blew would end in
smoke, and the whole thing would be dropped, and never be
heard of any more.— ( Hear, hear. )
Alderman THOMPSON said, that if the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government had refused to allow the Bill to
be read a first time, he would have been acting unfairly to-
wards the country, especially after the very able, eloquent,
and practical speech made upon the subject by the Noble Lord
who introduced the measure. The Hon. arid Learned Mem-
ber for Bath had erroneously stated that the Noble Lord the
Member for Lynn had proposed to tax the people of England.
He proposed no such thing, he did not propose to tax the
people to the amount of a single shilling. All that he asked
was to lend the national creditor 16,000,0)01. upon good and
ample security, upon good interest. He certainly thought the
plan of the Noble Lord much more rational than that of the
eGHe oei
vvfeeerint
backmc oennyti,ionswe;ehdiout
hpt
ahr
toopwophsoeeudnu
pound
ohoenamdt vohananitecdseu
sutra.—(Loud
, 000 /. and re-
- interest ( L oouudt col e f
er s .
doors)
bed heard the scheme of the Noble Lord, they would consider
his measure to be both sound and practical—(Cheers.) The
reason why private enterprise hail not succeeded in Ireland
as in England was, that the gentry ant landlords of that
country were induced to become subscribers to the several un-
dertakings, on the expectation of receiving their rents, which
had never been paid, and on the sale d their land which
had never been purchased by the companies.—(Hear, hear.)
With respect to the remarks of the Noble Lord at the head
of the Government, that the railways propesed to be constructed
were in the east and west of Ireland, and could not, therefore,
benefit the people of the southern and the western parts, he
thought that the measure would have the effect of inducing
those numerous relief committees which were about to be ap-
pointed, to send those able-bodied poor who might
apply to them for relief, into the southern and western districts
—to those parts where labour was to be obtained; and he sin-
cerely hoped that the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern-
ment would not bring forward any technical ob-
jection upon the money clauses of the Bill.—( Hear.)
Mr. POULETT SCROPE did not think that the arguments
advanced by the Noble Lord (Bentinck) were so overwhelm-
ingly absurd as the lion. Member for Bath supposed, and he
was, therefore, of opiniora that the course proposed by the
Noble Lord (J. Russell), in not opposing the first reading of the
Bill, was the proper one, inasmuch as it would give the House
an opportunity of considering the applicability of the measure
to the circumstances of Ireland. He thought, therefore, the
Noble Lord had exercised a wise discretion in not suppressing
the discussion in lirnief. As far as he ( Mr. Scrope) understood
the Hon. Member Bath, he believed the Wading scheme of that
anmd combi-
tiontelaiasutreitsotniliyatwaansybyortiange
o
Hon. Member seas, that it would be impossible for Ireland, to
of great and extraordinary
be eff,sctecl, if thertefw, as any chance of
Ir. I . Scrope)forward a measure
go on any longer ass
be attended with very great advan-
tagewhich he considered w ould
d.
he w a
on of the people of Ireland, and
in ameliorating the con
it forward as a nostrum
lie was taunted with putting
psueeremeasn!.entubeenheimfitsecioftal((\
or panacea
forward the Englsh poor-law as the
sole remedy for the grievances
subjected. 11 e never puti
under which that country
for all the ills to which that country was
her accompanying, measures to
effect, unless there were ot b for T worth and
The lion. Mein er Tam
worth
its resources. d the intrference with
the Hon. Member for Bath deprecate
laboured, for he never believed that it would have any such
the ordinary sources of private exertion. Now,
leavi g commercial enterprise to
pScrcoe) thought that this
under ordinary circumstances, he (Mr.
liar circumstances
would be a proper course, but under the pent
industry, soke of thee expediency o f
o f commercial
They could never proceed by the usual sil s
conditione of Ireland.
polity, in their exertions to improve the.. f
in which Ireland gas placed, be held it wholly inapplicable.
to know bow the
without exacting labour. Now he wished
The Noble Lord (J. Russell) talked of gising oodin certain cases

labourers were to be employed? He very much feared that
neither the Government nor the Irish proprietors would be able
to absorb all this labour. The first condition for the development
of Irish private enterprise, that is to say, the security of per-
sonal property, was wanting, and until that was secured, private
enterprise would never flow into Ireland. How could they
expect it to do so? The House might recollect the statement
made in a report on Ireland by Mr. Nicol, and presented to
the House in 1837, which was to the effect, that to give em-
ployment to labour capital was wanted, and to procure capital
security was necessary. That was the cycle and the order in
which they proceeded. The Noble Lord (J.Russell):proposed
to employ some money in drainage, and to employ another
portion in a plan which he (Mr. Scrope) would like to see
carried into effect—the reclamation of the waste lands.
But he thought, if the Noble Lord would extend
his plan to give assistance to railways, it would be a good addi-
tion. Under such a plan is that brought forward to-night by
the Noble Lord (Bentinck), he could not but believe that it
would be attended with the best results. He would ask, how
could they go on to feed the people as paupers, as they did at
present? The voluntary employment given by the landlords of
Ireland and the proposed measures of the Noble Lord, would
not absorb the labour of the country, and he could not there-
fere but believe that a system of railways would be very
beneficial in giving employment. He did not intend to trespass
upon their attention, but when such assertions were made with
respect to the introduction of capital into Ireland he could not
refrain from pointing out how erroneous such principles were,
for he believed by this course of proceeding, they would, in ten
years hence, be in the same condition as they were at present.
Colonel WOOD regretted the course taken by the Noble
Lord (Bentinck) and thought the arguments used by the Noble
Lord (J. Russell) in opposition to the proposal, were unanswer-
able. In no country did the Government undertake
the construction of railways. In France, where this interfer-
ence was said to exist, they were given to contractors. The
people of England had already evinced their desire to assist the
people of Ireland, but he thought they were not prepared to
accede to the proposal of lending money for the construction of
railways. He was prepared to support the Government plans
for the alleviation of the distress which prevailed in that coun-
try, but he could not bring himself to support a measure which
must ultimately fall upon the resources of this country.
Mr. HUME thought that the Noble Lord ought to have
stated the reasons why the former proposal of a similar kind had
not been acceded to by the late Government. The Hon.
Member then read a letter from Mr. Trevellyan to Mr. Labou-
chere, written on the Gth Oct., 1846, in which he stated " that
Mr. Goulburn and Sir R. Peel refused the application of
money for such a purpose, on the ground that it would not go
to the destitute labourer, but to the speculative shareholder."
There was another paragraph of that letter, continued the Hon.
Member, to which lie wished to call attention—namely, " that
the only portion of the money which would be applicable to the
relief of the destitute, was what would be expended on the
earth-works, and this consisted only of one-third of the
whole, the rest being absorbed by engineering, Par-
liamentary, legal, and other expenses." These were the reasons
which induced the late Government in refusing to accede to
the application then made to them ; and he wished the Noble
Lord had used those arguments in his speech, for he (Mr.
Hume) believed they were perfectly convincing. There could
be no doubt, if these railroads did not turn out productive, they
would become a charge upon the resources of this country.
The comparisons which the Noble Lord (Bentinck) made with
respect to the relative returns of railroads in this country and
in Ireland were not to be depended on ; nor did he believe
that the anticipated advantages would ever . be rea-
lised. He regretted that railroads had not been introduced
earlier into Ireland. When that question was first introduced
to the House he strongly supported the propriety of construct-
ing the trunk lines, believing as he did that the expenditure
they would occasion would be of great advantage to the labour-
ing classes, as well as to the commercial and trading interests
of the country. He was in- a minority on that occasion ; and
he believed the Irish county Members were most strenuous in
their opposition to it. Now he did not use that as an argu-
ment why assistance should be refused now, but looking at the
arguments used by Mr. Trevellyan, and the other circum-
stances of the cases, he could not bring himself to the proposal,
as he thought no benefit would result. He was, therefore, ,
bound to regard it as the Hon. Member far Bath did—a debt
which would hereafter fall upon this country. His Hon. Friend
(Mr. P. Scrope) said that they were not to deal with Ireland
on commercial principles, and that the laissez faire principle
would not do. He agreed with him that the laissez faire
would not do there, nor anywhere else; but there was
no evidence that the original causes of the present condition of
that country were to be removed, and until this was the case
he did not think that commercial principles ought to be consi-
dered as inapplicable. lie was informed by several Irishmen
that the removal of obstructions to the sale of encumbered
estates, and the modification of the law of entail, would lay the
foundation of great future good. He would say, then, let the
land be free, and apportioned out in from 300 to 500 acres, and
he would engage that it would be sold for twenty-eight years'
tghiyee
instantaneous
purchase. That was given for land during the last few months.
By this mode of proceeding capital would be introduced, and
the purchasers e
the country.
operate,employment, and be the best means of regenerating the
Lot then, he would say, the commercilalbpirliitniceispolef
plan of the Noble Lord would not be successful in realising
what was expected from it, he considered that it was wrong to
condition
of the ewofutl hd
people.ibs e l faonlundn wdt
the ladt
meantime,i dt ewv oeluolpd
believing
hold out such expectations to the people of Ireland. He thought
the Government should continue their exertions to alleviate
the calamity which had visited that country, and, at the same
time, to impress upon the landlords the necessity of discharging
their duties. He would also propose that the Government
should deal directly with the people of Ireland without the
instrumentality of the Lord-Lieutenant, for he believed that these
measures lost their force in consequence of this intermediate
system of administration. Believing, as he did, that the pro-
posed measure for the construction of railways, if agreed to,
would only produce temporary good, while it would entail last-
ing evil, he would give it his decided opposition.
Mr. GRATTAN said, amongst the exaggerated accounts
which were from time to time put forward with respect to Irish
Members, he should not be in the least surprised, to-morrow,
to find, in the ordinary channels of information, that a party
of Irish gentlemen in the neighbourhood of Whitehall
had been attacked by a passenger by the Bath coach,
who, after having presented a brass blunderbuss at them,
which missed fire, made off.—(Roars of laughter.) He had
been twenty years a Member of that House, and he had
never heard the Irish landlords so maligned as they had
been by the Honourable Member for Bath (Mr. Roebuck).
What right had he to attack the resident proprietors who lived
on their estates and spent their money amongst their tenants ?
The Irish landlords did not ask for money ; they had never
asked for any.—(Derisive cheers.) As they seemed to doubt
his assertion, he would tell them, how money was lent
England to Ireland at 5 per cent., after havingie appealed to
been borrowed
an
to I
Er enl agnl
adn,d how it was repaid. The money was lent by ,d
at 311 per cent.—( Hear, hear.) 1
the Irish Members to corroborate the truth of this assertion.—
(Hear.) It appeared that 330 loans had been made to Ire-
land, three-fourths of which bad been paid back. 80,0hTl.hwe'eaos
repaid with five per cent, interest. Altogether 967,i ./. hadd
been to the county of Kerry, every shilling
been lent, 755,7391. of which had been repaid, leavingo
balance unpaid of 231,000/.—(Hear, and derisive cheers.) Nary!
of which had .
with what face could the Hon. Member for Bath comicorwhadd
and charge the Irish landlords with mendacity?
lenow
listened to his attacks as yet very good bumourely, but
Bill to
said he wished to have a clause introduced into t e .
f the money which
prevent Irish landlords from having any part o
e which
they should attack him in earnest.—(Laughter.) Then he
was to be voted ; but they never got any of the mon
oy_
Irish
England had debited her with. Then he talked i
gold. He (Mr. Grattan) remembered the the lion.
was money in the Irish Exchequer. Now, no doubt f
ut
Member was conversant with history ; he would, there ore, P
time when there
this question to him—Who took it'. Was it the Irish Mem-
bers or the Irish landlords who took it? No ; it was the So-
vereign of the country of which he (Mr. Roebuck) was one
of the representatives—it was taken by the English Sovereign.
But what became of the English gold sent to Ireland ? Was
it sent for virtuous purposes which they should espouse? or
to promote industry ? or to uphold the honour of the country ?
No such thing. It was sent there for the purpose of bribery, and
50 generals and subalterns were poured into the country to bribe
with that gold, and to undermine her independence. But let them
take it back again. There was a God in heaven, who, by his
wrath, would avenge such conduct. lie rejoiced now, that
they had been brought on their knees before the Irish beggar,
and that they must do justice to those whom they had forecreten-
turies so grievously oppressed. The Hon. Memberhaadt atshse
excl..
that the Irish were now to be fed on English beef
Ireland de-
pense of England, but every cow imported
prived several persons of employment.--( how much gold
talked of English gold going into Ireland, but?
A list which
was taken out of Ireland and spent in England
the brother of
was in his possession showed that a gentleman' eat in England
a Member who took his seat the other night,.
estate ; another
7,0001. a year which he derived
fronl'ninthe same way ; in
having property in Sligo, spent 7,000/.11,
and a number of
Longford, 5,0001., in- Waterford, 40,000 .0
00 of acres of potatoes
others. The loss of 5,000,000 or 6,000,
nt state if she had had
would not have reduced Ireland to her prese from We
Ireland fell from
the soil belonged spent its produce elsewhere,eefs many landlords
the sky to the earth. In Wicklow, sv ,
aiamity, were not
lived, the inhabitants, notwithstanding the e
He had read much,
in so bad a condition as in other parts•
could make laws
any back to support her ; but as manyo those to whom
and had arrived at the opinion that no countfryre
he hoped their
which would be suitable to another,
late for herself. Al-
repealed, and when Ireland would
leg
made in the criminal
union would be
children
been
code, Let them not
code, yet it contained several p
' ehna but of the misgovernment
though
ug h
row
ao
uu would
modifications live to o see that
hdaady l wbe h e tnh. etrhe ee
speak of the idleness of the those
uced the constituencies
Bill as to have re
Reform Through these and
of Ireland to as few as thirhad been destroyed and demoralised,
other causes the peoplehen they had been called upon to pay
and no doubt w
relieve their distresses, they would no doubt be
of that House, and of who had so denuded the
hy
eeevr
e,snali idha de
thate
been guilty
nut tAam 1 werai always
not fail, ere long,
to rue their mis-
e They could
Shannon.
would not call the remarks of the lion. Alember
deeds. He
ould not call them virulent, but rather the
he
was been
3gfoolarTt:ao:acstattiikrteensChreeeemwell, and to " send the Irish across the
of the shrivelled adder.—(Hear, hear, and
dripping 1?
neAl,laenamdsb;ienrl; elhBh3o however,
de
!or
treason, or at least _ .
and obtained her independence, and advised
had fought for
example. Many an Irishman had
Ireland to follow her
Tohneyhieo on the subject, that
that.
' far less than He now came to deal with
hung for saying
Laughter.) The late Mr. Drummond, who
laughter.)spoken
common sense.—( .
ilanthropi y y ears ago, to a depute-
st, stated, man 'e
did not want money at five per cent.
tion that waited
railways made in Ireland. He hoped the Go-
anxious to see
net reject the Bill, as it would
Go-
vernment would give profitable
il hnat
employment to 550+000 men, and produce the best advantages
to the country.
at three and lent
which they had borrowed
sense of England, the economy
was the common s of Scotland,
of the
and the sterling honesty
consistently
sedition,
t.
N N E LL people of Ireland.—(Cheers.)
Mr. JOHN O'CO hoped that the House would
it had done on other
have acted now as
day for
and have sat from day
tßills the purpose of passing, with-
out the slightest delay, the which the Government had
introduced on their own responsibility. He thought, sincerely,
that some such proceeding ought to have been adopted on the
present occasion. why wasda Wednesday last lost? Why had
the greater part of that y been lost—or why a single hour
lost, when the distress in Ireland. threatened the safety of the
• 9 He, therefore, inaplored the
empire . House to consider
whether it would not be well to meet the calamity by the
constant sitting of the House, and by pressing forward, with
the least possible delay, the measures which the Government
had brought forward for the purpose of affoi ding relief to
the people of Ireland.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") The
measure of the Noble Lord might be
a good one, or it
might be a bad one. There was certainly much speciousness
in it as laid before the House ; but he would ask him not to
persevere in it until those measures proposed by the Govern-
ment to meet the emergency of the time had been sanctioned.
The Government were responsible; in Heaven's name let them
not
not divide that responsibility with them by delaying such
projects as they believed essential. While-
they were de-
bating the people were starving.—( Hear, as ar ) A good deal
of time had been already lost, agood deal' e .
of the present night
had also been lost, and very intemperate speeches had been
made. He would have the House remark
that it was not on
the side of the Irish Members that tat intemperancebegan—
it
commenced on the side of the Hon. Member for Bath,
whose position lie did not consider was in the least enviable.
He (Mr. J. O'Connell) did not think, if his mind was
right, that his conscience could be easy.—( Laughter.)
He did not think a right-minded man would have thrown i _nto
w a
sa g r et
p

the discussion the torch of useless discord. The people of Ire-
land were perishing by hundreds ; their representatives had
come there with the sincerest desire and wish to repress every-
thing of an angry nature. He would ask the Hon. Member,
in the name of humanity, to permit these Bills to be passed.
He could then give notice of a day on which he would pour
forth his vile slanders, and they would then be ready to refute
and answer him. The Hon. Member for Montrose had said
that there had been numberless remittances of money to Ire-
land. He held a Parliamentary paper in his hand, which he
had moved for himself, which proved that since the union
there had been a surplus received from Ireland of nearly
twenty millions of money, and that only up to the year 1845.
He also found that about eighteen millions had been
advanced by way of loan to England and Scot-
land, out of which six millions two hundred thousand
had been repaid. While there had been nine millions lent to
Ireland, out of which seven millions had been repaid. England
and Scotland had repaid six millions out of eighteen millions.
Ireland out of nine millions, within the same period, had re-
paid seven millions. He would ask the Honourable Mem-
ber, in the name of common manhood, to abstain
from his most envenomed and slanderous attacks. Until the
measures calculated to relieve the calamity which existed had
been passed. They would then have a short time to throw
away, and if he would come forward and state his case, they
pledged themselves to refute him in every particular, or con-
sent to acknowledge themselves the abject creatures he would
paint them.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUDSON did not intend to detain the House at any
length, and he had only risen to express his complete concur-
rence in the proposal of his Noble Friend the Member for Lynn,
and to express his deep regret that the Hon. Member for Bath
had introduced into a grave and commercial question matters
wholly irrelevant. It certainly was much to be desired that
the Hon Member would take to himself an evening to exhaust
his undigested bile.—(Hear, hear.) He considered that the
Noble Lord (John Russell) was entitled to their
thanks for the manner in which he received the
proposition, which, when carried out, he trusted
would lay the foundation of the future prosperity
of Ireland. He did consider that the country was much in-
debted to the Noble Lord for the manner in which he had met
the proposal, and he hoped that it would receive from
him that patient consideration which it manifestly de-
served, and that when he came to look at the state-
ments and figures, he would fully find that they were
borne out by fact ; indeed, for their accuracy, he was
quite willing to pledge himself. Let the House remember
that they were not about to introduce the principle of for-
warding public works by loans of money. The Hon. Member
far Montrose would recollect the Caledonian canals.—(Great
laughter.) Although the country from which he came was
not backward in enterprise. There was one principle
involved in the Bill, which eminently recommended it,
and that was, that he believed in his conscience that
the country would not lose one sixpence by passing the measure.
They were not going to tax the people to raise the money, as
bad been erroneously stated, they were only about to lend the
national credit. The Noble Lord had said that it would be an
interference with private enterprise, but the Noble Lord would
not surely contend that there was any chance of these rail-
ways being executed by private enterprise. The Govern-
ment by adopting the measure of the Noble Lord would only
be following out the principle which was pursued in France.
France lent her money for the execution of public works—
they would be thus enabled to model their system upon that of
the French, which had been desired by many. He had con-
siderable experience in these undertakings; he had watched their
progress and their development ; he had seen a barren country
into which they had entered became fruitful; he had seen
civilisation spreading her blessings around, and social inter-
course very much promoted ; and he knew not why the same
results should not occur in Ireland. It had been urged that
the measure would be a direct benefit to the lauded interest.
Why there was no scheme which could be proposed to benefit a
country, which would not immediately benefit that interest,
and it was right that it should be so.—(Hear, hear.)
The Noble Lord had very properly stated, that had not some
assistance been granted by Government to the Liverpool and
Manchester Company, they probably would not have seen it
now completed. But would any one get up and blame Go-
vernment for having given assistance to that line?—( Hear,
hear, and cheers.) Although that was a time when it
was a speculation, but now the system of railways bad
been reduced to almost a practical certainty. He trusted that
the Noble Lord, when be came to the second reading of the
Bill, would deeply consider the measure of the Noble Lord the
Member for Lynn, and give it the kind consideration it de-
serves. He was, however, of opinion, that if the Noble Lord
rejected the measure he was bound to bring forward some
equally practical measure.
Mr. WARBURTON said that the question was, whether
the capital was to be advanced by this country—whether the
English public would, at a period of this kind, engage in a
scheme for advancing sixteen millions for the undertaking
and completion of Irish railways. That was the question
which her Majesty's Government had decided, and he entirely
approved of the decision come to by them—that they would
not, on this occasion, engage in such a scheme. There was
no occasion fur the House to enter into a discussion as to
whether they would enter into the scheme, or ascertafn
whether it was desirable that the capital of England should
be employed in Irish railways.—( Hear.) Occasion might
arise—either for military or police purposes. And was
this a period for this country to engage in undertakings not
likely to be immediately productive? was it a period, when
their garners were full of corn, when there were large quanti-
ties of food available, and money lying idle in the hands of the
capitalists of the country? They should rather think of em-
ploying the agriculturist and the farmer in the production of
food before such a surplus could be embarked in such specula-
tions. What were the circumstances in which they now found
themselves? They were told that one half of the ordinary
food of Ireland was destroyed, and if capital was to be employed
at all by England, it ought to be employed in setting the Irish
labourers to work to produce for the next harvest a sufficiency
of food to prevent a recurrence of the present cala-
mity. Was there any man of common sense in that
House, or out of it, who could expect any other
than a distant return from such undertakings as the Noble Lord
proposed to encourage. Would the turning of the soil on rail-
ways produce the potato, barley, oats or wheat, necessary for
the consumption of the Irish people in next August and Sep-
tember, and during the whole of the ensuing year? No man
of sense could say so ; and a Government must be insensate if,
on the present, they engaged in an undertaking of this
kind. Let them look at the enormous undertakings England
herself was already engaged in, in various railways, and while
extraordinary demands were being made on England for the
support of the Irish people, not only for the next year,
but for many seasons to come. According to the argument
of the Noble Lord, the returns from the Irish railways
were so small, that the sums they proposed to advance them
were only to be paid for by the small interest of 31 per cent.,
so that, under any circumstances, they were not likely greatly
to improve the finances of the country. He objected entirely
to any employment of the Irish people excepting in endeavour-
ing to produce food for the next season, and in endeavouring
to avert the great danger of famine which threatened them.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
although many topics had been entered into during the course
of this discussion, and on which many Gentlemen had made
observations, yet he rose on this occasion princi-
pally to make an appeal to those Gentlemen who had
shown a disposition to prolong the debate, and to
request them to abstain from doing so. He thought himself
bound to set a good example in that respect, and abstain from
making any observations on the most able speech in which his
Noble Friend opposite had detailed his plan. His Noble
Friend (Lord John Russell) had already stated the course
which, not only on the present, but on future occasions, he
should feel it his duty to adopt ; and such really being the case,
no possible question could arise that night upon it. Leave
had been given to the Noble Lord to lay his measure before
the House. Of course the Noble Lord had understood that
already there stood for that night a measure for the
practical and immediate relief of distress in Ireland, and
he appealed especially to the Irish Members to second
that Bill which had been already before them ; and not to waste
time on the present discussion, it was of consequence that
Hon. Members should not interfere or create further delay be•
fore that measure was passed,
as its object was to give imme-
diate relief to the present necessities of Ireland.
Mr. GOULBURN wished to say a few words on this sub-
ject before it was postponed. The Right Hon. Gentleman,
who had just sat down, had said that the Noble Lord had dis-
tinctly answered the course that he intended to take when the
present Bill should hereafter become a subject for the consider-
ation of the House. He apprehended from what had fallen from
Hon. Members, that the course to be taken by the Noble Lord,
had not been distinctly stated. He thought it essential be-
fore the debate closed, that the House should be informed
on that point, for although his Right Hon. Friend the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had stated that Government had
avowed its intentions, the House in general was not satisfied
as to the course intended to be pursued. He felt that to leave
in uncertainty a question involving so large an amount of pe-
cuniary interest—(Cheers)—and one likely to lead to great
speculation--(Loud cheers)—which speculation might be seri-
ously affected, was a course open to the greatest possible objec-
tion, both as regarded the interest of the speculation to
which he had alluded, ar.d the welfare of the very works
Government desired most to promote. Who would advance
money in undertakings of this kind? Who would encourage
them under the present circumstances without a distinct
knowledge of the course that Government would take
upon this measure. The sole object he had in rising was to
call upon the Noble Lord to make that clear which to some
Members of that House appeared to be obscure. A course at
once essential to the best pecuniary interest and the general
welfare of the people of Ireland.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—In answering to the appeal of my
Right lion. Friend, who has stated that what I have said was
not perfectly understood by the House, I will repeat my former
statement. I stated to the House that I thought it respectful
to my Noble Friend, and I am now confirmed in that opinion,
to allow him to introduce the Bill. I stated that in the future
stage, when, according to the forms of the House, it would be
necessary that the House should go into Committee, for the
purpose of providing the money necessary to carry into effect
this Bill, that on such occasion I thought it in-.
cumbent on the Government to take it upon itself
to carry this plan into operation, or at once to put
in the negative to the proposition on the part of the Crown.
I do not think it would be fair for the Noble Lord to stand by
to give merely a formal sanction of the Government, and allow
him to proceed with the Bill in order to reject it on a future
occasion. I stated that whatever might be the course taken by
the Government and by the House, I was not prepared to
carry into effect the plan which my Noble Friend has propose
and therefore when he should apply far authority to carry it
into law I should, on the part of the Government, refute it.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN said he felt he should be wanting,
not only in the duty which he owed to the Noble Lord and to
himself, but also to those whom he represented, if he failed to
take that opportunity, the earliest that offered itself, of thanking
the Noble Lord for his proposal. Ile thanked him, not so much
much for the proposal itself, as for the spirit in which it had
been offered. It had not been accompanied by that con-
tumely with which what were called boons to Ireland were so
often accompanied. Such was not the spirit of the Hon.
Member for Bath, who, on speaking on this subject, had taken
every opportunity of ridiculing their distresses, however un-
deserving they might be of such ridicule. He had accused the
landlords, the clergy, the middle classes, and the Irish people,
and he left to the House to say, when a country was suffering
from starvation and distress, was that a course to be adopted
by any lion. Member of that House ? The Hon. Member for
Bath had come forward with his proposition, and what
did it amount to ? He had robbed his Honourable
Friend the Member for Stroud of his proposal, and
has indicated his intention of proposing a property tax on Ire-
land, by way of relieving the present necessities, and. told theme
to enact a law which had been enacted two years since.
1H
must say he was inconceivably surprised by the course taken
by the Noble Lord. He could
.not conceive how, as a Minis-
ter of the Crown, he should hesitate to allow an advance to
the extent of 1ti,000,000/., when his political antagonist
stshi measuresLe' ur of
forward and told him he might rely upon hdisala tan came
that he would give to him all the credit an
passing the measure, when he must know that such
were necessary for the security of the country, to prevent a
Why should he not
state of things next year like the present.
grasp at it? But in truth the Noble Lord appeared to think that no
relief was of any value to Ireland unless it were totally and
utterly unproductive. The Noble Lord thought that all that
was required was to feed the people. There never was so
monstrous a proposition. What was t o become of the 500,000
labourers now unemployed ? The
Noble Lord said there were
measures proposed to him of a character rendering necessary
less sacrifice of imperial credit on the part of the railways.
He had stated that one proposition had been made to him, re-
quiring five millions of credit to ten millions of capital, and

that the Treasury had at once rejected the proposition. What
had taken place in the county of which he vas a member?
All classes were anxious that a certain railway should he
undertaken. They saw the amount of money about to
be expended in an unproductive manner, and they skid
let us make a presentation for the railway, and we will take
our chance hereafter of Parliament allowing us to sell or lease
the line." The landed props ietors were prepared to give their
consent to the railway being made through their estates. At the
presentment sessions the proposal was unanimously adopted, but
when it came to be submitted to the Treasury, they had said,
"Oh, no, we must have unproductive works."—(Hear, hear.)
The population of the country would have entered into these
speculations, and paid every farthing of the money borrowed.
And what was now the scheme of the Noble Lord? He now
came down to the same parties, and said that he would give
them one-half of the advance made by the Imperial Treasury,
when he might have had the whole repaid. He hoped that,
under the new system, we should not see what he had seen in
Clare, where the young women were sometimes working upon
the roads. He hoped the Noble Lord would take the earliest
opportunity of moving an address to her alajesty, that this
scheme might be carried into effect. He, ler his own part,
stood there independent of all parties. He had no animosity
against the present Government. He considered him-
self independent of all, and sought only a good
system of legislation for his own country.—( Hear, liear.)
He considered the proposition would be of great benefit to the
people of Ireland, and hoped the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government would reconsider the determination lie had come
to, and give it his support. If he did not do so, he (Mr. S.
O'Brien) was convinced he would be hurled from his present
seat of power.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. LABOUGHERE expressed his regret at interfering in
the discussion, after what had been said by his Right Hon.
Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as he (Mr. Labou-
chere) was desirous that the debate should come to a conclu-
sion as soon as possible, in order that the House might apply
itself to the measures devised by the Government to meet the
present urgent necessities of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He had
risen because the Hon. Member who had last addressed the
House had made a mistake, on which lie (Mr.
Labouchere) wished to make a remark or two.
The Honourable Member for Limerick stated that
his Noble Friend the Member for the city of Lon-
' don had encouraged no works but what were of a useless or un-
productive nature. If it was not in the recollection of the
Hon. Member, it must at least be in the recollection of the
House, that among the measures which his Noble Friend at
the head of the Government had introduced, there was one
which, for the advantage and improvement of Ireland, pro-
posed to pledge the credit of England for at least a million and
a half of money.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) This was a
measure to enable the landowners of Ireland to employ the
people, to relieve the distress which prevailed, and to cause the
cultivation of the soil for the next harvest.—( Hear, bear.) It
was therefore a most extraordinary mistake to say that
the policy of the Government, and especially that of
the Noble Lord at the head of it, was to give no
encouragement to measures of a productive nature, but only
to forward such as were of a useless and inexpedient character.
So far from that, his Noble Friend was desirous of encouraging
works that would benefit the great body of the Irish people,
and not to construct works that would go into the hands of
speculators.—( Hear, hear.) There was another statement of
the Hon. Member for Limerick which was extremely calculated
to mislead the House, and which also required some explana-
tion. He had stated that the Government had refused its
sanction to presentments made at the baronial session's for the
construction of railway works. lie (Mr. Labouchere) would
tell the circumstances under which a refusal had been made,
and he would then ask the House whether the Government
had not done perfectly right in the matter. The line for which
a presentment grant was wanted was one for which no Act of
Parliament had been obtained.—( Hear, hear.) Would it have
been right, he asked for the Government, to ride over all the
Acts of Parliament which were passed last session,
and have sanctioned a grant to a private line of this des-
cription? Their conduct would have been most inexcusable
had they done so. But there could be no fear of injustice
charged against the Government; when they had always been
most willing, if a fair cause for assisting a railway, for which an
Act had been obtained, was made out at a present-
ment session, to allow the grant for the exe-
cution of earth work and embankments.—(Hear, hear )
The principle of a Treasury minute issued on the 16th October,
1846, was to this effect. It stated that the Government was
prepared to give its sanction to presentments for the earth work
of railways, providing there was a sufficient case made out.
There were several conditions, which he need not go through,
but there was one to :the effect, that advances should be made
but to railways for which Acts of Parliament had been ob.
tained.—( Hear, hear.) It would have been manifest injustice,
after agreeing to so many railway Bills last session, to pass
them by, and to advance sums on lines got up by private par-
ties. To have acted otherwise than the Government had
done, would have been to create great confusion.—( Hear,
hear.) Nothing but the statement of the Hon. Member for
Limerick had induced him to address the House, and having
made these explanations, he trusted the House would allow the
discussion to drop for the present, and go on with those prac-
tical measures of the Government which were now anxiously
awaiting the decision of the House.—( Hear, hear. )
The Marquis of GRANBY had no desire to protract the
present debate, but he could.not avoid rising to express',,his
assent to the proposition of the Noble Lord, the Member for
Lynn. He did not think that, railways were an unmitigated
good; there was a considerable amount of evil mixed up with
them. At the same time, he thought, if ever there was a
country where the benefits would bz great, and the evils few,
he believed that country was Ireland; and at no time could
the advantages of this kind of communication be better in-
troduced than at present. He had no intention to go into
the argument at present, but would content himself with thank-
ing the Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn, for the measure he
had introduced.
Mr. MUNTZ would ask the lion. Member for Kendal
whether it was right to oppose this measure when the people
of Ireland were starving in thousands? He (Mr. Hunts)
was of opinion that it was better to lay aside principle than to
allow the people to die.--(Hear, hear.) It appeared in that
House that the exercise of benevolence was ma de
de to pend on
the colour of the skin. It was not long since they had voted
twenty millions to liberate the West India blacks, but now
they talked of adhering to the principles of political economy,
when the health and lives of millions were at stake.—( Hear. )
It was not a question of giving they had to consider--it was
one of lending, the object being to construct railways as far as
they were required by the wants of the country, and no fur-
ther.—( Hear, hear.) This was the teal point to be considered
by the llouse. He thought the measure of the Noble Lord
the Member for Lynn would do great good, and therefore he
hoped the Noble Lord at the head of the Government would
reconsider the question.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. J. COLLETT supported the motion of the Noble Lord
, the Member for Lynn. He did not think the present discus-
sion was abstracting the attention of the House from measures
of immediate importance, as he believed the proposition under
consideration would, if agreed to, be the means of extensively
employing the people. Though he might be considered as
being an interested party, he would inform the House, that if
the proposition of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn was
agreed to, he could, on the railways with which he was con-
nected, employ, by Monday next, 50,000 persons. Ile be- '
lieved the Government had not studied the question of rail-
ways, else they would not have expressed the de-
cision they had done that night.—(Hear, hear. )
If Government wished to interfere in the matter of railways,
they could, at that moment, purchase all the lines in Ireland at
par, and he (Mr. Collett) would be most happy to dispose of
his interest at the same rate.—(Laughter.) He was no be-
liever in the utility of Government management, but if the
Noble Lord desired to try the working of the scheme, he (Mr.
Collett) could dispose of a railway which had already received
the sanction of the House, and which was intended to run
through the wilds of Tipperary.—(Shouts of laughter.) He
repeated, that if the Government advanced the necessary
funds on the rate of interest contemplated in the measure of
the Noble Lord, he (Mr. Collett) would be ready to engage
50,000 able-bodied men, in the course of the succeeding week,
all he would require would be the Government permission, and
by the next post he would address a letter to Mr. Dnngan, the
contractor, who would, the followinc, Monday, find employ-
ment for the number of persons he hadr stated.—(Cheers.)
He
had no hesitation in giving the names of the railways in which
these men would be set at work. Ile would employ, let them
say, in round nnmbers, on the Dundalk and Enniskillen, 5,600
men ; on the Belfast Junction, 7,000 ; on the Great Southern
and Western, 7,000; on the same railway, in the distressed
portions of Cork, 10,000; on the Kilkenny portion of the line,
3,000; on the Killarney Junction, 3,000; and the remainder
on the other lines, 15,000.
Mr. M. GORE thought that another mode of providing
employment for the population of the Irish seaboard, in his
opinion even preferable to railways, would be, to encourage
fisheries.—(Cheers.) He had received accounts from the
Galway coast that the fishermen of Claddagh were in a fearful
state of destitution, and he thought that the distress might be
greatly lessened if the Government took measures to extend
the fisheries of Ireland.
Mr. GROGAN said that as the Treasury minute, founded
on Mr. Labouchere's letter, had been referred to by an lion.
and Learned Member in an earlier part of the evening, he
begged leave to make one or two observation; upon it. He
could assure the House that, as far as beneficial works
concerned, that minute had remained a dead letter.—( Hear,
hear.) The minute was in itself good, but the conditions
which were annexed to it crippled its utility, and there was,
therefore, no single instance in which it could be alleged in
which a railway company had taken advantage of the proffer
of the Government. He had not intended to trouble the
House, but felt it his duty to refer to this matter as it had
been so prominently brought before them by the Hon. and
Learned Member opposite.
Mr. MORGAN JOHN O'CONNELL would not have
troubled the House that evening were it not that he
believed that no other opportunity would be given them of
discussing the question, for be believed that it would be cut
short on the second reading. He was afraid that the Govern-
ment had not given this question a proper consideration.—
(Hear, hear.) If it were possible that the measure introduced
by the Noble Lord could in any degree endanger the finances
of the country he should be as loath to advocate the measure
as any representative of a Scottish or English constituency.
—( Cheers.) But with the supervision that was to be exer-
cised over those works he was assured that the Government
might safely advance the sums required by way of loan at 3i
interest, and the repayment could be as well guaranteed by
Irish railways as by any other species of public works. While
he thanked the Government for the intentions they had mani-
fested towards the people of Ireland, he still thought that
they might have adopted other and more beneficial measures
by the encouragement of productive instead of comparatively
useless works.—(Hear, hear.) He also thanked Hon. Members
for the good feelings they had evinced towards Ireland, and if
he but glanced at the expressions of those Hon. Members who
dissented from the measure introduced by the Noble Lord
(Lord George Bentinck) that evening, and he more parti-
cularly referred to an Hon. and Learned Member who at on
the same side with himself, it was only to express his regret,
that in the present unfortunate condition of Ireland, they, and
more particularly the lion, and Learned Member, should have
made use of expressions which were so calculated to injure o,le
feelings of Irish Members. He could assure the lion. and
Line ahrins ebdrelisetrib(eHr
et
ra
htehaorse)_ e expressionsonly excitedti noa indignation..d
more honest feeling, that of pity—(Ctieers)—that his Ind-
veterate restlessness of temper—a restlessness which had pi ove
isnodgurceea
him,t an oat; setvreurcytioopnp
otrotuiniiisty7te:eaststacal: aallleagnid every
slatnr—should
(Laughter.) They read in Homer that Thersites vvas listened
to by the Greeks, but after all, the fame of Thersites was very
ephemeral, and he believed that the lion. and Learned Mem-
ber would not be more successful in his endeavours to atte.in
popularity.
Mr. HAMILTON also felt compelled to refer to the Trea-
sury minute, which had been alluded to by the lion. Ayem
inope-
rative, ber
for Dublin
of the Irish people (Mr. Grogan), foreplhee feltit would assureprodtvleiattoitn al thell
pre-
sent condition
and the Treasury Commissioners had no power to carry
it into effect. The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite seems in-
clined to ascribe mercenary motives to the Irish Members. He
did not know uy what scale the Hon. Member for Bath mea-
sured the conduct of those who came from Ireland, but this
much he would assert, that theute. was no set of men whose
integrity. 'rho Noble Lord who .isointenrelsotedness andh
conduct was more directed b
seemed to desire that the resourceswh ofl . consistenture
of England.—(Hear, available for the improvement the through
introduced
dshtold be made
of country
close of last year the entirlleeafra'iluhreear.o)f the
the credit
crop
e
had shown that the resources of that country were likely to be
of little assistance , a deputation, of which he was a member,
hepnotaatot
had waited upon the secretary for Ireland, Sir Thomas Free-

An lioN. Memeen was glad this question had been brought
forward; for though he spoke in no hostility to the Govern-
ment, he still thought that the measure proposed by the Noble
Lord was the one best adapted fur improving the condition of
the Irish labourer.
After a few words from Colonel VERNER,
Lord JOHN MANNERS said, after an observation that
had fallen from the Hon. Member to the effect that this mea-
sure was brought forward to harrass Government, he wished
to disabuse their minds of such an impression. lie did most
sincerely trust that should the House pass by a majority the
second reading of this Bill, that her Majesty's Government
will not think it incumbent upon them to interpose the prero-
gative of the Crown to stop the Bill, which the Irish people and
the people of this country believed to be of the utmost im-
portance to Ireland. Should Government contemplate
that course, he would just remind them that it was not so long
ago since they witnessed in another place the introduction of
that prerogative, and they all knew with what final success.—
( Hear, hear.) He took the liberty of saying these few words
in no spirit of hostility to Government, and his earnest hope
was that Government would take up the measure, and carry it
forward as their own.—( Hear, hear.)
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
Mr. ROEBUCK requested the House to listen to him for
not more than five minutes, while he gave an answer to some
observations which had fallen from several Hon. Gentlemen;
and he addressed himself, first, to the lion. Member for Kerry.
When that Hon. Gentleman sat down, he (Mr. Roebuck)
took the liberty to tern round, and say, " May I take the
liberty of asking whether you heard the speech I rnae:e this
afternoon?" " Some of it," replied the Hon. Gentleman,
" but I confess 1 took the greater part of it on credit." So
all the compassion, all the feelings the Hon. Gentleman had
for him was "on credit." That was precisely the sort of way
in which all gentlemen were accustomed to deal with others
who were, he was afraid, careless in their modes of assertion.
He (Mr. Roebuck) appealed to the House to recollect the
manner and language of his address. He had very strong
objection to the employment of money in the way proposed by
the Noble Lord. He had stated his reasons for that opinion,
saying that he sincerely believed it would be doing mis-
chief to the people of England, and no good to
the people of Ireland. He had gone on to say.
what he sincerely believed, that Ireland had suffered
immense injury from appealing to the generosity of this
House insteadjof trusting to herself; and he 'could not help
feeling that, as no immediate benefit could arise in the way of
immediate relief to the poor of Ireland, this measure could
only have a beneficial effect upon the landed proprietors of that
country. He had stated his opinion, as he now did, plainly,
simply, and without circumlocution, as was his habit. without
one harsh phrase or one harsh word.—(" No, no ;" " Order!")
[Mr. Osborne—You said you would propose to put a clause
sa the Bill. He considered it of the greatest importance for
the dignity of this House that its Members should be entirely
above suspicion, and that none of the money intended for the
people of Ireland should be partitioned among persons having
a seat in this House or the other. in regard to the remarks
of the Hon. Member for Meath, he was not accusing the lion
Gentleman of running away; but if he wanted, in a ward, to
characterise the lion. Gentleman's speech properly, he should
say that it was a " frantic " speech. He asked the House
whether he had employed a single phrase that could possibly
warrant the wholesale vials of wrath that had been
poured over his head. He now repeated what he
said then, that he had a duty which he owed to
his constituents. He had been reproved for not doing his
duty as a Member of that House to Ireland, but he had also
other duties towards those whom he represented. 't he lion.
Gentleman had-accused him (Mr. Roebuck) of malignity, and
had at the same time styled him a" shrivelled adder."—( Loud
laughter.) The Hon. Gentleman had condescended to expend
his sarcasms upon his (Mr. Roebuck's) unfortunate form,—
a thing that he should be ashamed to do do in return.—
(Laughter.) Yes, the Hon. Gentleman had called him " a
shrivelled adder." Was that not " a frantic exhibition of im-
potent indignation ?" The adder could bite and sting, and the
poor ox that he did sting felt the small reptile to be a very
dangerous enemy.—(Hear.) But the sting of what he had
said had not been in the sharpness of his phrase, or the mode
in which he had chosen to put it, but in the truth of his as-
sertions.—(Cheers.) lie had always found that when he
wanted to drive anything sharp home, when he wanted it to
bite, he edged it with truth. That was the way to make it
hang, and he felt that he had hit the white mark en this occa-
sion, because certain Hon. Gentlemen felt it so strongly, and
became so angry.—(" Hear, hear," and a laugh.)
Colonel RAWDON felt surprised at the language that had
been used by the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath, or that
such language should have been uttered in that House. That
Honourable Member had told the House that the
Honourable Member for Kerry had heard what he
(Mr. Roebuck) had said on credit. Now he (Colonel Raw-
don) had heard the Hon. Member, and imparted what he had
heard to the Hon. Member for Kerry. He appealed to the
high and generous feeling of that House, if any Gentleman,
who heard him propose a clause, that no Member should ap-
propriate any portion of the money to be voted by that House,
if he would not feel justly indignant, were he alluded to,
as the Irish Members were. Could anything be more insult-
ing.—( Hear, hear,) It had been strongly supposed that the
Honourable Member for Bath was the hired advocate of
ruffians.—( Order, order.)
The SPEAKER here called the Hon. Member to order.
Colonel RAWDON did not intend to commit a breach of
order, but he felt strongly the insult of the Hon. Member for
Bath.— (Hear, hear.)
Mr. F. FRENCH said the Hon. Member for Rath had
benefited by the alteration in his tone, and, as for the rest of
the lion. Gentleman's speech, it could not be complained of
by them (the Irish Members).
Mr. GRATTAN would like to know whether one Member
had a right to charge another with intending to put the public
money into his own pocket ?—(A laugh.) For himself,
nothing was likely to come into his pocket through the rail-
ways, but when a Member of that House once charged Mr.
Tierney with having his pockets stuffed with public money, he
rather thought that the Right Hon. Gentleman's (the
Speaker's) predecessor called that Member to order, and that
when he next appeared in his place he received a very good
jobation—( A laugh)—for making use of such an expression.
The Hon. Member for Bath ought to receive a similar jobation,
but he hoped this idle discussion would not be renewed, and
that the Bill would be suffered to be brought in at once.
After a few words from Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN,
The Bill was brought in by Lord G. BENTINCK, amid
general cheering from both sides of the House, and was read a
first time.
On the motion of Sir B. HALL, the following returns were
ordered :—" Return of the income on which the assessment is
made for the relief of the poor in every union in Ireland ; the
dates of any assessments ordered to be levied since March,
1846 ; the rate in the pound sterling of such assessments, and
the amount collected and expended : of the amount of any sub•
scriptions for the relief of the poor in every union in Ireland,
distinguishing, 1, the balance (if any) remaining from the sub-
scriptions of 1845 and 1846; 2, private subscriptions advanced
by owners, lessors, and occupiers of property within each union;
3, subscriptions received from other sources ; 4, amount from
public grants. Of the amount of deposits in the several sav-
ing's-banks in Ireland on the Ist day of January, 1846, and the
let day of January, 1847. Of the amount of poor-rates levied
under the provisions of statutes of the Imperial Parliament for
England and Wales, in each year since 1840; stating the
amount in the pound sterling in each union. Similar return
of the amount levied in Ireland.

TENANT RIGHTS (IRELAND).
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said, that as it was his object to have
a fair discussion upon the motion of which he had given notice
for to-night, on the subject of tenant right, he would not pro-
ceed with it at the present late hour of the night, but would
postpone it until Thursday next.
DESTITUTE POOR (IRELAND).
On the order of the day for going into Committee of the
whole House,
Lord CLEMENTS called the attention of the House to a
opitc:pehs,
ire:Lninslr:ogii
jei:indt.,tAteucoioi
than
orderi
recent letter of the Right lion. Gentleman the Secretary for
respected,
iLtrii,aili:siirsllianEon
the Home Department, for the purpose of entering his protest
against the police having anything to do with the relief com-
mittees. It would be to take them from their proper duties to
put them to others for which they were unfitted.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said, that in the letter referred to it
was announced that the head of the constabulary force Mulrse-
becalau'em'b:st uus,ef.utlheandchianriapcotretranotf
laanndd shouldhe would fo ramd
add, that
o f the
t acentrali,po i
ns ump ee9rni nttht ehenad_id,ienagdeceoonifn mtmhiaedeceeobn;y.
guhbtein Ireland, he was so generally
the Government, not merely
membersct
Colonel
lbounl
ea lr yi
vo, 1
fh,
cite,
ri
a,musttgo r committee,necessarilys.
od
so h bi
as to renderCerfuosiColonel
esui
lemt l i
lauliuni.iinG:
disclaimed
drnc
eae
lags:
noisor
nary unnecessary because
-t. i
ohimn
character,o (fslar
v. i
nLga ba on uy -.
n3N:n- out of the House, could entertain a higher
of whom no
Choemhmitnitsteelef
of the
of the day
The CHANCELLORwas otel:
wholee nthrce a andEanxo
uc sel the hEeQI
II
joEu house
moved
resolvedove d a
resolution authorising a grant of 300,0001. from the Consoli-
dated Fund on the security of the rates to be levied under the
Destitute Poor (Ireland) Bill. The Right Hon. Gentleman
stated that the sums to be applied to the relief of the poor con-
sisted partly of money raised by rates, and partly of subscrip-
tions ; but, as the collection of those rates was not likely to be
speedy, it was proposed to advance the money during their col-
lection. ',There would be a subsequent clause in the Bill
authorising the whole grant, which he proposed to move from
time to time in Committee of Supply during the session.
Mr. P. SCROPE said, as this money was to be secured on
the rates, the collection of which dedended on the exertions of
the Poor-law Commissioners, who were to have a power to
supersede the boards of guardians if they did not collect them,
and to appoint paid boards of guardians, and as he had a very
strong opinion that the conduct of the Commissioners as to
the collection of the rates had been very lax, particularly in the
Castlebar union, where the people died in great numbers be-
cause the rates were not collected, he wished to know whether
the present Commissioners were to carry tl,e Act into execu-
tion, or whether there was to be any alteration before the Bill
came into operation.
Sir G. GREY said, it was not intended to make any
alteration before the Act came into operation ; but he hoped
that the Act would pass immediately, and come into operation
in a very short time. The power given to the Commission by