The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-23 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, FEBRUARIC 23, 1847.

estimates had been increased. Last session '
the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) sought a vote of
1,000,0001. for the purpose of placing the steam navy in
an efficient condition, and the House acceded to the
proposition; but did any one believe that the Navy esti-
mates would be increased this year? Instead of such at
proposition, he expected a reduction this year to that
amount. This ought not to occur at such a period.
Looking, therefore, at the great increase which has been
alluded to, and looking at the difficulties of
the money
markst, when the Government were obliged to raise the
intere tof their money. He would wish to ask what
would be the effects of the measure uponth eir
merchants and traders who were carrying_u
ono t.h
com-
merce of the country. The income-tax should be ex-
tended to Ireland. The Irish should have fair play--
(Hear, hear.) Yes, they hal been an oppressed people;
they had never been given either civil or political privi-
leges. He would
give them equal laws, but they should
have equal taxes. (Hear,hear.) In fact, he would at
once extend the whole code of English laws to Ireland.
He regretted that there had been no attempt to equalize
the rate of taxation. In what situation would
they be at the end of August, if there came
another year of scarcity, tee Government would find
the echoes from the different parts of the country by no
means satisfacrory.—(Hear, hear.) According to the
statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman, there was to be
an increase in almost every department of the State—in
the army, the navy, and the ordnance. Now, the Right
Hon. Gentleman should have stated the grounds on
which this increase was proposed to be made. How was
it that the expense of these departments was to be more
than in 1845, and last year ? Moreover, there should have
been some arrangement by which the 8,000,0001. pro-
posed to be raised might be paid back within a few years.
The expenditure of 1832 was 5,800,0001. less than the
present year. That was during the unreformed Parha-
m eat. The next year, 18.33, under the first estimate of
the reformed Parliament, the expenditure was 7,428,0001.
less than the present year. In the year 1835. which was
rather a remarkable year, when the Hon. Member for
Tamworth, then Prime Minister, prepared the estimates
hims lf, the expenditure was less than the present
year by 7,773,000. He did not include in the present
year's estimates either the 8,000,000/. to be advanced on
the interest, or 400,0001. on the Exchequer Bills. The
House had a claim upon her Majesty's Government to
be told why this additional expenditure was called for
this year. He was told that it was extended upon the
army, navy, and ordnance. Well, let them take 1830,
under the Duke of Wellington's Government, the esti-
mates for the army, navy, and ordnance were less, by
3,000,000/. than the present year; and the miscellaneous
estimates were less by 1,800,000/. In 1840, when they
were engaged in the war with China and a dispute with
France—when they had a large fleet in the Mediterra-
nean—when the siege of Acre took place—and when the
large amount expended in Canada had not been repaid—
the estimates were 2,930,000/. less than the present year.
The Right Hon. Gentleman had not attempted to justify
the increase which had taken place in any one of these
departments. He only made his estimate in a clear and
distinct manner. It might be, but still he only men-
tioned the sums he wished the House to sanction, without
stating what were the reasons which compelled them to
have recourse to the House for these amounts. He
agreed with the opinion of the Right Hon. Baronet
opposite, that no tax ought to be imposed on a country
in a time of peace. But if the Right Hon. the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer must borrow money, he should
do it in the right way. He should borrow one hundred
pounds of money on every hundred pounds of stock, for
by the operation of the three per cent, consols he would
be adding 800,000/. to the permanent debt of the country.
Now he should like to see the Government commence
upon this new course; and, depend upon it if they did,
they would then be enabled to reduce the interest pay-
able upon the national debt. But now they were going
upon an eroneous system altogether, in so far as, al-
though the Customs had been abolished, the salaries of
the Custom-house officers had been increased by 49,0001.
while in the three years, 1843, 1844, and 1845, the in-
crease in all the public departments amounted to
234,0001. It behoved the aristocracy if this country to
weigh well the effects of throwing upon posterity the sum
of 8,000,000; for depend upon it. a time would come
when this debt would be shaken of', and the consequence
would be. that all property would lie shaken to its centre.
Mr. ROEBUCK. could not allow that opportunity to
pass without entering his solemn protest agtinst the
measure proposed by the Government. In common
with other Hun. Members ha considered that the state-
ment of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, could not have been more complete,
more proper, or inure frank.—(Hear) ; and he, in
common Nith them, regretted the indisposition under
which the Hai. Gentleman laboured whilst deliverinc
his statement. Ile deprecered any desire to unfairly
attack or oppose the Government, but lie thought on
an o icasion like the present—important in the highest
d, gr-e—and he believed most imminent and portentous,
that no one should shrink from openly stating their ob.
jection to the propositions laid before the House. First
of all, a suspicion was created in his mind, in consequence
of the altered course of proceeding. The Government
had already pissed a Bill, creating machinery for distri-
buting relief to the Irish people, aid of vesting the per-
sons se appointed with unlimited power over the funds
This Bill, ho believed, had passed the other House. In
addition, they had passed a Bill, which hal been impro-
perly called " a Bill of Indemnity," as it was a Bill to
make valid every presentment made at Quarter Sesions
in Ireland, and he believed that such presentments
with scarcely an exception had been made throughout the
whole of Ireland. Yet the Cherie, Bar of the Exchequer
now sought power to make a lean if not less th en
8.000,0001., stating, at the same time, that he hid in
view the incurring of an expenditure of 10,000 000/.
What was absolutely necessary was a Bill to tax the
proprietors of land in Ireland for the support of the poor.
A Bill of that nature had been introduced, but it had
been put off since the commencement of the session in
the most remarkable manner. As he should
show from ;the conduct of the Noble Lon
at the bead of the Governmcn% He (Lord J.
Russell) said that he really hoped end believed
that he was about to encounter no opposition to
the principle of the 8.11, which, he stated, was, that the
property of Ireland should be tax-'d to the amount
which would sustain the poor of Ireland.—(" Hear,
hear," from Lord J. Russell.) Nuw he (Mr. Roebuck)
understood tLat seventy of the largest proprietors had
signed a statement in opposition to the Noble Lo:d's
views. A number of Roman Catholic clergymen had
waited upon him, expressing their dissent at the conduct
of the Irish party. Now iheie gentlemen represented
themselves as expressing the feelings of the whole of
the Irish people. He was inclined to believe that
they had banded themselves together for the pur-
pose of opposing the proposition of a poor-law for Ire
land. They are quite willing to receive what money we
will give them. But he did hope that English gentlemen
would make a stand, and that they would not permit any
delusion ; and before they alseeted to any sum they
should insist upon a poor-law for Ireland. He would
like to know why Irish gentlemen, who came over to
England for six or seven months, and maintained their
carriages, should net be made to pay the same taxes
as the poorest srtiz-in was liable to. (icala) Why
he wanted to know how it was, that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer did net come forward and propose, in order
to meet a portion of the eight milliens, if not the
whole, that a property tax be imposed on the landlords
of Ireland. He could not at the present time make a
proposition on the suject, but before the matter was
disposed of he would bring forward that question, and
he did hope that every English gentleman in that House
would support it ; or if they did net, h trusted the con-
stituencies which they represented would vote it. He
would propose that property in Ireland, as well as in
England, sheaf be made to hear the same burden,
so that all might contribute alike. The preeent secs
said to be an imperial calamity. end that it was right
that the United Kin:lum should afford Graetee ;
it was en imp, ri,sl calamity, and should be m, t by impe.
rial measures. Ireland, as well as England, should be
male to contribute. It was said that tithes, unposed an
income tax on Ireland, the landlords would never pay.
He did not accede to that ; the landed property of Ire-
land was rated at 13,000,000/. ; arid taking that es a
baseis, lie weied tax it to that amount. Irish Members
had stated that the poor-rates were generally
paid, and he del
see any reason
why a property-tax should
note also be paid. If the property-tax be not paid, let the property be sold
.
It appeared to him that they should not get out of thde.
scrape. it was but common justice that they sheula be
placed upon the same footing es the rest of the teniteeleine-
dom. There wts one great difficulty to which he wished
to call the attention of the Noble Lord. G, vernmees
had gathered together 600,000 men on the pub,ic works,
and the next difficulty would be to disband them. They
had been withdrawn from the cultivation of the soil, and
applied to enap'ovment of a different kind, and the diffi-
cnity now would be to get them to resume their ordinary
occupations. He admitted that the Government had a
difficult problem to solve, more difficult than any body of
men had had for a long time to contend with. He did
not wholly blame the Government.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—You cannot blame us for the
potato failure.
Mr. ROEBUCK—The potato crop had failed to the
extent of six millions.--(A voice "sixteen.") They
had not, however, eight millions of a population to feed.
The whole population of Ireland was not starving ; but
those who were subjected to the calamity were forced to
use a kind of fuel superior in quality and more difficult
to obtain than any to which they had hitherto been
accustomed. The East India Company was a paternal
Government, and he meant to use that as a term of high
approbation. It had great power, good intentions, vast
intelligence, and had besides what no Government in
Ireland had to deal with—a docile people. What
Was the result which they experienced in
dealing with the visitations of Providence in
Why every attempt they made to
alleviate, there dispensations had failed, and had been
productive of more evil than if they had done nothing.
So strong, therefore, had this feeling prevailed, that
d
they were determined to interfere nu more with these
dispensations.
3;
the
determined to remove all re-
the
stricmeans of rtions, andeliepf, to
people in the ay of obtaining
u ets,° w
abstain f ow all interference
exactly applica-ile
themselves. Now the tonrndeline of proceeding was
e,la
Beef
gre n tin
held his handu a
statement made by a „urab
er
with
wham were Catholic clergymen,
siLat%ectthtaottthhee
coof
dition of Mallow. The committee
tress in that town could not dis
resulting from the failure of the
considered as
as the sufferers had no land—there'otl;t:d c"11,
some reasoning attempted to account for this bebeeut
these gentlemen stated that the same distress •--
prevailed
eery year—it was the same the year before last and
would be found to he the same next year—the greater
part of the population living on one meal in the day for
half the year round. What was the inference he wished
to draw from that statement. It was not to make any
imputation, gad therefore he hoped not to be made
the subject of the angry vituperation to which he had been
lately subjected. The inference he,wished to draw from this was

1 that if Government pursued the course they now proposed,
they would only increase and exacerbate all the evils which
belonged to Ireland. They would encourage that improvidence
and want of forethought which made that people trust upon
every one rather than themselves. They had three millions of
people now depending on them, and were expending at the
rate of a million a month for their support, and the conse-
quence of all this would be, that they would demoralise
the people.—(Hear, hear.) He had letters from every
part of Ireland to corroborate what he said, and he knew that
it was true, else he would not say it. He appealed
to every one who knew any thing of Ireland in confirmation
of the truth he had expressed—that the people placed their
sole dependence on the Government. He thanked the House
for allowing him to make these observations, and he would
conclude by warning the Government to abandon this loan for
eight millions. They would find their calculations, as to the
termination of the distress in August, disappointed ; they
would find then that they would have to cope with the same
amount of distress as at present—Parliament not sitting—
themselves unable to meet the emergency—the same ery—
" give"—"give"—still prevailing as at present, and all their
exertions ending in making the mass of misery still greater.
He warned them, therefore, to stay their steps in time, and not
drag down the people of England to the same condition
as the people of Ireland were et present reduced.
Lord J. tiUSSELL rose not to add any thing to the state-
ments which had been made by his Right Hon. Friend the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, as he had stated the views of
the Government so fully and clearly that it would be quite
superfluous to do so, but he wished to snake a few observations
on the speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had
just sat down, because admitting, as he admitted to the Go-
vernment, that his views were for the benefit of the country,
he was bound to say that he was utterly deceiving himself as
well as Parliament, and the greatest danger and folly would
result from their adoption. In the first place, with regard to
taxation, the Honourable Gentleman said that the income-
tax ought to be extended to Ireland; that the pre.
sent was an imperial calamity; and as Ireland was a
part of the United Kingdom, that it should contribute
its quota by the income-tax to the alleviation of the
calamity. It must be recollected that the present distress
pressed most severely upon Ireland, and the greatest exertion
had been made by the gentlemen of that country to relieve it—
that they had received but a small portion of their ordinary
rents, and had expended in msny cases all their usual income.
He said, then, while this was the condition of Ireland, however
right it might be, if the income tax was to be continued to
this country, to extend it also to Ireland, at the same time,
in the present circums:ances of that country, he thought it
would be neither wise nor just to impose the income-tax upon
Ireland. He, therefore, could not agree with the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman in that proposition. The Hon. Gentle-
man then went on to show that the present state of things was
nothing but the ordinary state of Ireland, and he
read a statement which he ( Lord John Russell) had seen
in October last. It was, however, a most rash and
unfounded statement to make, that the description there given
was at all like the ordinary state of Ireland. Let them sup-
pose that three-fouths of the ordinary production of the soil
had failed, could it be said that the state of things which fol-
lowed that was the ordinary or usual condition of the country.
It was this difference which now produced so large an amount
of mortality as now prevailed, and it was clear to every
one, that had net some means been adopted, that the
deaths would have been multiplied ten or a hundred fold. In
England there was a poor-law to meet that state of things, but
seeing that they had not resources in Ireland to meet the
emergency, large sums of money had to be advanced from the
National Exchequer to ward off the famine. There might
have been different ways to do so than the Bills which had been
introduced, but he could not reconcile himself to allow Bitch a
calamity to pervade the people, without endeavouring to
allevi ite, to some extent, the pressure, and to supply
what was wanted in the ordinary operations of trade.
There might be an unwise economy, but yet he gave the Hon.
Gentleman full credit for a desire to have legal redress for the
money that was to be advanced. They much regretted the
state of the people of that country, but he believed that a great
mistake prevailed with respect to the assertion that the people
had been taken from farm labour to be employed on the public
works, as well to the assertion that there was an amplitude of
employment for the number of persona who might be employed
in farm labour. From the very necessary of the case it was
evident that the holdings were so small that the farmers did not
require the assistance o these labourers, and, therefore, it is
evident that no injury whatever could have accrued to the
country to any extent. He did not think that the people
had been demoralized by these works—by the execution
of these task works, so far as the wages were concerned. If
the labourer could obtain the waves for his work, why should
he be demoralised by changing from one kind of work for an-
other, simply because the works on which he was emplosed
were what might be called eicless. Supposing any gentleman
chose to make a piece of ornamental water on his grounds, and
he paid the wages to those who were employed on the work
was it to be called a useless and demoralising work, if the men
got their wages, any more than if they had been engaged in
making a harbour, or in deepening a river. But the great
question waa, how was this great change to be brought over
Irish society? and that was the question to be contemplated—
Whether the landlords or the Government could, by employ-
ment of the poor, so provide as to create a permanent supply of
food for the country? For himself, he thought that by the
mere culture of the lands, it could not be produced in sufficient
time; and, considering the increase of the population, he was
impressed with the belief that the potato culture could not be
reoovered in less than seven or eight years with success. He
perfectly agreed with the observations of the Hon. Gentleman,
that in addition to the great distres of this year, much was to
be apprehended and provided for during the next, and it was
therefore ridiculout not to anticipate great changes. He did
believe that in consequence of this movement that a measure
must be introduced, both in this House and the other House of
Parliament, for an amendment of the poor-law in Ireland ; and
he state,[ this, because he believed that the Irish Members
would not, in consideration for their country, oppose such an
alteration, and he believed that the result would be productive
of great convenience, although he very much regretted the
immediate inconvenience that must, for the present, arise from
it, and which appeared to be apprehended from the few words
that had fallen from the Hon. Member for Coventry, respect-
ing the estimates, for those estimates had been prepared with
the most impartial consideration, for the welfare of the
country. He could certainly tell that Hen. Member, that
those estimates had been prepared with a view to the utmost-
economy, so far an it was necessary for the welfare
of the country to co.asider that point. But it should be recol-
lected that it was necessary to keep up both branches of the
service in such a state of efficiency as would enable them to act
effectually in the event of an invasion of the country. It
should be recollected that last year there had been a great
increase in both trade and commerce. These estimates had,
indeed, been prepared with a view to preserve the greater
uniformity between the two years, so that there were only three.
quarters of the year included in the estimates for this. Last
year the estimates for these branches was 6,630,000/., and this
year it was 6,i40,000/. ; during the quarter last year it was
9,972/., and this year it was 12,787/. In the Ordnance the
estimates last year were for 2,547,000/., and for this year
2,679,000/., making an increase of 135,000/. For the corres-
ponding quarter last year it was 67,239!., while for this quarter it
was 67,258!. This increase had been rendered necessary by an
addition to the number of men required for the Ordnance depart-
ment, and in order to render the service effective. In the Navy
estimates, the increase was 77,426/., being for an addition of
1,5(10 men. He could assure the Hon. Member for Coventry
that the estimates of the increase of the number of men was
for 3,000, but the Government had only decided upon an in-
crease of 1,500 for the present year. He ( Lord J. Russell)
must allow that-there had been a large increase since the year
1635, but still he believed that the increase was no more than
justified by the enlargement of our commercial relations, and
that it was necessary, for the security of that commerce, and
was one of the great reasons why that commerce flourished at
the present period of distress.—(The Noble Lord was loudly
cheered throughout his speech, which continued some time
after he sat down. )
Lord G. BENTINCK could not sufficiently admire the
clearness of the exposition which his Right lion. Friend the
Chancellor of the Exceeqner bad made to the House, nor
su:rieiently admire the chivalrous bravery which had induced him
to leave a sick bed to make that statement; and deeply did he
(Lord G. Bentinek) regret that his Right Hon. Friend had
been compelled to leave the House, especially as the discussion
might prove useful in that discussion to make up the deficiency
in the Exchequer. His Right Hon. Friend had stated that he
was not prepared to make up that deficiency by any increase of
the income-tax. His Right Hon. Friend might well abstain
from making any increase of that tax amid the present stagna-
tion of trade, and had done welt to congratulate himself on
the increase of the revenue from the taxes derived from the
taxes on the articles of consumption. But there might be an-
other reason why his Right Hon. Friend bad abstained from
an increase of the income-tax, and this he supposed would be
found in the fact that the present Parliament was in its last
year, anti that neither the members of the present Government
Or the late Government would like to go to the country for an
election with the knowledge that they had voted for
an increase of the income-tax. The Honourable. Member for
Coventry (Mr. Williams) had expressed great surprise at the
great increase of the military and naval forces. Nor was it
all surprising that he should do so, for when he recollected
the higo flown promises of the Noble Lord who had risen from
hi, native woods and forests into his new quality. he had pro-
mised the people of Sheffield that he would never have to go
to his Right lion. Friend Mr. Ward to maintain the navy in
all its efficiency—that the red artillery was to quench its mur-
derous battery, and he (Lord G. B'ntinck) thought the Hon.
Member for Coventry had great reason to complain when he
found that amid all teose promises 1200 men were to be added
to the army and 50C to the marines. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that he (the
Member for Lynn) would certainly consent to raise four millions
for Ireland, for the purpose of public works, which
thefo; the l \ slairuniestrpyurpohsaed,
‘.itcoitnsweanstedto
cometo were likely to be useless, but he should recollect that
gorau nt t 0 f Itoh,
eOOOOO English 01.
purse. The [tight lion Gentleman had expressed his satis.
faction that the money ;taus advanced was nottobe expended in Missisippi I3onds, but that it was to be advanced for rail-
ways in Ireland. the Right Hon. Gentleman had congratu-
lated the /louse on the increase of the taxes derivedfrothe articles of consumption, and had instituted a comparisonn
on the articles of coffee and butter, and had stated that be-
tween the years 1843 and 1845, it increased from
180,000 cwt., to 240,000 cwt., but now the con-
sumption amounted to 250,000 cwt. In cheese the
consumption between 1843 and 1845, the increase
was from 957,000 cwt. to 287,000 cwt., but between
that year and the last the consumption had increased to
288,000 cwt. The Right Hon. Gent. had been inclined toascribe
all this improvement to free trade and had asserted there was
an increase of 250 per cent. on the tea returns. Between 1844
and 1846 there had been an increase of from 41,000,00011)s. of

tea to 4!;,000,COO1bs. in the latter year. In hops there had
been an increase of from 27,000,000 to 32,000,000 lbs. ; and
in malt there had been an increase, between 1843 to 1845,
from 33,000,0:l0 to 46,000,000; but then it should be recol-
lected that all this increase was to he ascribed to ihe great
increase of population. The Noble Lord then went through
the several amounts of the sugar and the silk duties, alleging
that in the former the increase was owing to the use of slave-
grown sugar. and that the increase in the duty on silks, from
218,000 to 297,000, was owing to the repeal of the duty on
foreign silks, which had been productive of great distress to
the Suitalfields weavers, with whom he had been placed in
communication; and yet who, notwithstanding their
own sufferings, had intimated their intention of con-
tributing to the relief of the distress in Ireland.
The letter went on to state, " and had your Lordship possessed
the reins of power—(Lau2,hter, and " Hear, hear,")—the peo-
ple of that country would not have perished in the way they
have." This was the expression—the honest expression of the
poor working classes of Spitalfields, for their unfortunate fellow-
subjects in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He agreed with them, srid
when he heard from the Right Honourable Gentleman
the statement that in all this large expenditure, but
293,000/. had been expended to afford a certain kind
of employment for the people of Ireland, he for one
felt deep regret at the smallness of the sum which Her Ma-
jesty's Government, acting upon the principles of political
economy, had advanced. It would be a standard in the face of
Europe, that 250,0,X1 Christian panple had perished from
starvation in Ireland, while in a neighbouring country, under the
mutiorveerpnarnteernnta,l
he believed,
ohfadthepulcicinhgaseodf tnheearFlyren2coho,,owohoosef
quarters of grain to feed the people of that country, Not '• a
to
by
yk,
eot,hr
jean
rtws woman,
ogrii
i:ora
fn:;:ht chili'_" —for,he asthe language. of Mr.
the scarcity of 1793, had been alluded
or
him--yes, not
ctenzsmight And ah salbitedvai
tthoed from s
at quote
ru
tv(h)
at
e.e
lion in France. ue-

Irish peoplee when many of them had perished by thousands,
could abstain from comparing their condition and
their treatment with that which the people of
France met with at the hands of that Government. It was not
his intention to trouble the House at any length upon that occa-
sion ; but he must say that it did strike him as somewhat sur-
prising, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should come
down to the House and state that before long it was his inten-
tion to contract a loan, and that it was his intention to pay 3i
per cent. Why, 3i per cent. was not the interest which he
found very general at the present moment ; and he (Lord G.
Bentinck) could not help supposing that those who had money
to lend, hearing that the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed
to pay 3i per cent., would not accept less, although they might.
perhaps, have been disposed, if the amount had not been speci-
fied, to take a smaller rate.
Mr. SHAW said at the time the income-tax was imposed on
this country there was no machinery to carry out such a tax in
Ireland. But the Hon. Gentleman was the very man to-night
who, at such a time, would advise the imposition of such a tax
on Ireland. If the burden was an imperial one, he was at a loss
to know why Ireland should pay full half of it. If the public
works were stopped suddenly, he could not see what would
be done with the persons employed on those works at the pre-
sent moment. The small farmers, who were but slighty re-
moved from the holding of a " cottier" tenement, paid as long
as they could their tenants in 'potatoes ; but if the public
works had not offered employment to the starving,
greater mortality would have been the result.
The calamity had not been confined to Ireland, but had
extended to parts of this country, and on the continent ; and
in such a state of things, it was incumbent upon this country
to come forward and aid those suffering in another part of the
kingdom. In referring to the statement of the Hon. Gentle.
man, with regard to the poor-law, he (Mr. Shaw) begged to
say ;hat he was wholly opposed to an indiscriminate out-door
relief; but as that was not the proper time to discuss a perma-
nent poor-law for Ireland, he would not address the House with
respect to it. He did not, however, object to giving out-door
relief during such a calamity as the present. He did not say
that every man in this country did as he ought to do; but this
he could say, that the resident landlords and absentees of
Ireland had subscribed to the funds being raised to the utmost
of their power.
Mr. ROEBUCK explained that what he meant to say, was
that the landowners of Ireland had exacerbated the evils of
that country. If an inquiry were granted into the matter, he
could prove that even the resident landowners had not con-
tributed to the fund for the relief to the poor, to the utmost of
their power. It was the gentlemen of the country who were
thus to blame, and not the farmers and other persons of Ireland
who were to blame. If Englishmen would join him, he would
drain the land of Ireland for the support of Ireland's poor.
The land of England had been mortgaged for the support of the
poor of Ireland ; and it was but right that the soil of Ireland
should be mortgaged for a similar purpose.--( Hear, hear.)
Mr. GOULBURN would not then deal with an im-
proved poor-law for Ireland. He knew no question more
difficult to deal with than the one on which the Right Hon.
Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had addressed
them. It was impossible he thought, to lay a statement more
clearly before the House Alan he had done--(Hear)—and the
office was one of great responsibility, inasmuch
as a gentleman in his position had to pursue impor..
tant measures for the present, and at the same time
to keep in view whatever exigencies might occur. The
Right Honourable Gentleman began his speech by a statement
of the expectations which he (Mr. Goulburn) held out on a
former occasion with respect to the public revenue of the year
which had just elapsed. He (Mr. Goulburn) said that he had
stated that he anticipated there would be a surplus next year
exceeding 776,000/. He confessed he had entertained sanguine
expectations that that surplus would have been greater;
but as reductions of duty were made, it was impossible at the
time to which he referred to form an accurate estimate of the
revenue which would be derived from the increased consumption,
yet although his expectations were of a large amount, he did
not estimate so large a sum as that which those reductions bad
already produced. Thus, instead of being 776,000/., it would
be nearly 3,000.000/. The lion. Gentleman made, he thought,
one error when he stated that he (Mr. Goulburn)had no right
to calculate upon an increase in the sugar duties, because he
stated that he was not the author of the alteration in these
duties, but when slave and free grown sugar were admitted into
this country, a great increase in the consumption took place.
The increase in free sugar had been 1,700,000 ewts., while the
increase in slave-grown sugar was only 400,000 cwts. ; so that
the increase of slave-grown sugar had not increased to an ex-
tent to influence the revenue. Unquestionably the great in-
crease in the revenue was in consequence of the facilities
offered to manufactures, and to the cheapening of articles of
food, by which the comforts of the people had been materially
enhanced. The Noble Lord said the Right Hon. Gentleman
had encouraged the introduction of the silk of other countries ;
but if they had admitted raw silk into this country, they bad ex-
ported to other countries a great increase of manufaeured silk.
From the returns, it appears, that in 1844, the quantity of raw
silk imported was 3,600,000 lbs. ; in 1845, 3,700,000 lbs. ; in
1846, 3,900,000 lbs. ; showing a large increase in quantity over ,1
the antecedent years of the raw material imported. With re-
spect to the experts, he might state, that silks to the value of
692,0001. was exported in 1844 ; in 1845, to the value of II
700,000/. ; in 1846, to the value of 768,0001. ; being an in-
crease of 68,000/. of the manufactured silk exported in the pre-
ceding year; showing clearly that, however large the quantity
of raw silk imported into these countries, the export trade has
received a corresponding activity. That the manu-
facturers had suffered largely from the high prices of
provisions, he regretted to say he could not doubt,
But the Noble Lord further went on to say that it was net
merely on the articles of silk that consumption had increased.
He told them that an increase had taken place on malt and
hops and other articles on which there had been a reduction.
Why he admitted that such was the case—that was part of the
advantage derived from that very system which he (Mr. Gotil-
burn ) had the honour of introducing to that House, which gave
increased power to the industrious to purchase, by reducing
the taxes on the raw material. But he told us that it was
owing to a system of railways introduced into the country, and
a large sum' of money expended mostly under the direction of
the Hon. Member for Sunderland, but he ought to haye re-
collected that the expenditure on railways has not been con-
fined to the last year, but to some years antecedent, years in
which there had been the greatest deficiency in the revenue.
He found that the London and Birmingham had expended
8,000,000/. ; that the Grand Junction had expended 4,500,0005.;
the Brighton 2,800,0001. He did not wish to disparage
the effects which railways had upon the country, but he said
that it was not just or accordant with the fact to ascribe to
them the augmentation which had-taken place in the revenue,
which had arisen from a reductif n on the articles of prime
necessity. The Hon. Member for Montrose considered that
the Government should have raised a loan in order to relieve
and keep down taxation. It was true that they had reduced
the taxation when there had been a surplus of revenue
to warrant it, in the hope that the revenue world
come round by the increased consumption. But to
the borrowing money from year to year, for the purpose of
reducing the taxes, would be to involve the country in a round
of deficiencies and misfortunes. The review of the financial
state of the country could not be but satisfactory to the party
with whom he had acted, and in this moment of difficulty and
danger, they could not but feel that it was by firmly and man-
fully providing for contingencies, that the country was in so
good a position. They should have been involved in a series of
deficiencies and difficultie, if they had followed the advice of
the Honourable Member 'for Montrose, he came new to the
consideration of how the emergency was to be met. Some
Honourable Gentlemen insisted that it should be by a loan,
others that Ireland should have been taxed to the full amount
of her necessity. But he considered that when a great over-
whelming calamity brought upon the land not by human
agency, but by a far higher power, when they found their crops
blighted, and their subsistence removed, that they should bow
to the inflict:on, and submit to the existing state of the coun-
try, he considered that a loan was the only means to meet the
emergency, and he considered that it should be lent with the
distinct declaration that what was now advanced as a loan must
be repaid by the people for whose necessity it was granted.
It might be fair hereafter to impose upon Ireland taxes to se-
cure the repayment of this loan, but now the only effect would
be to destroy the landlords who had already done all they could
and who, in the event of any taxation would be compelled to
leave the country, or to leave undone those duties which they
were now so stedfastly pursuing. As far as regarded the Go-
vernment, nothing could be more satisfactory than the speech
of the Right Han. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer ; and it was a pledge that he intended to pursue a sound
and solid system of finance, by his determination that the mea-
sure should not be dependent upon the exchequer alone, which
should bo protected from the evil effects of drawing from it so
large a aum as he had prcposed for the relief of Ireland.
Mr. VERNON SMITH said that the Right Honourable
Gentleman who had just sat down, had objected to
the expression used by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when
he said that he would call the advances to Ireland a loan, and
in his statement as to the way in which he intended to raise the
money, he thought that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
been more in the wrong even than the Right Hon. Gentleman
had suppostel, for he (Mr. V. Smith) thought that if the
money had been raised upon interminable annuities, that money
would be much more sate, and would reflect less burden upon
the country. He thought that the people of England were at
present not aware as to the extent of the measure they were
entering upon and its effects upon their finance. He gave them
the fullest credit for generosity of feeling in adopting any mea-
sures for the relief of Ireland, and he thought that having entered
upon the question they intended to provide against any such
calamity in future, by placing such property upon an equality
of footing with English property; but he thought the means
adopted were not sate ones, and, in his opinion, when the
Chancellor of the Exchequer made his statement he could not
have altogether excluded from his mind the question of inter-
minable annuities.
Alderman THOMPSON said, that he had heard with great
satisfaction the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
with regard to the finances of the country ; but he did think
there would not be very long any surplus in the Exchequer. lie
did not think that the Government was properly aware of the
expense they would have to incur in relieving Ire-
elneanonieemddns,ttria:nfoewnire the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said
that he was not sanguine that the current revenue of the
thoughteeent y thele dgteehma
eat
dn
vdas
e euponee considerablea
si t
Ireland
eand,ee t
caution
under rh thene oe
tidi cni
be
ea-
h:neragt,lazt;trfizatlyzetnht at
an present.
eeheff
ghan-
ceralleotre.of tiheheEGxcehveeteertehhatdzdverzei
place
e the
tthh
ee
annualaCi i
state
o(l ort.no ing else, but, it seemed, nothing was to be don
to
nual
at present. He hoped the Government would reconsider thee
question, and that the-House would not slightly part with the
power which it had over these annual votes of money.
Mr. F. BARING differed with the Honourable Gentle..
man. So far from thinking the annual vote being
necessary, on the other hand, he was glad that the
Right Hon. Gentleman had decided to get rid of this annual
botheration about particular taxes ; mil in making that
change he did not think the Constitution or the people would
suffer thereby. With regard to the state of the country he
believed the Right Hon. Gentleman had made a full statement
of its financial prospects. Taxing the estimated expenditure
and income there appeared to be a surplus of 400,000 i, on the
year. This was leaving out of view the money proposed to be
raised by extraordinary means. He q. ite agreed with the state-
ment of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Goulburn),
that they should endeavour to make the increase always meet
the expenditure, and that he (Mr. Baring), had endeavoured to
do so when he held the office, much as it might be said to the
•ontrare. Perhaps if he had had three as good harvests as that
Right Hon. Gentleman, he should have bad as good a surplus
in the Exchequer annually as the late Government. He con-
sidered the statement of the Right Honourable Gentle-
man the Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Wood)
most able and explicit, and he quite agreed with
him that they ought to meet the difficulty by un extraordinary
step. No doubt some lion. Gentlemen had objected to that
course, but that was the best course left the Government in
bear:Fhl would
present circumstances. Had it been ever so desirable, he did
not think it would have been possible to have digested measures
of a permanent character soon enough to be of service. Should,
however, the next year present a similar aspect to the present
one, then he was decidedly of opinion that some means would
have to be taken to make up the deficiency other than by loans
or the funding of a permanent debt.—(Hear, hear.) He did
not agree with the Hon. Member for Coventry, that the pre-
sent and past Governments, for several years past, had been
very extravagant, and that they ought to have reduced the
expenses. In answer to that, the Government had been, all
things considered, very economical. Had they yielded to the
representations made to them, there would have been a much
greater increase than there had been. Still there had been a
great increase in dwithstanding. From 1835 to 1846
there had been an actual increase of seven millions

this was exclusive of the charge for collection,
and the charges on the debt. This, however, was not perhaps
a fair representation, but taking 1835 to 1846 there had been
an increase of five millions in the year's expenses. MO was
before the Whies came into power, who made a considerable
reduction ; still, at the end of 1646, there had been an increase
of five millions in the year's expenses.—(Hear, hear. )
He thought that when they had before them the prospect of
next year increasing the burdens of the country ; he did think
—perhaps it might be impertinent in him to tell the House so—
that it would be better for it to change its conduct, rather than
impede Ministers, and cause their country to bleed at every
pore.
Mr. MUNTZ said that it had been alleged that they aught
not to increase the taxes at that period, but he did not tee the
force of this reasoning. Why should they not have an in-
creased property-tax? He thought it would be better to have
their difficulties placed before them, instead of deferring the
consideration of them to a future year. He was in favour of
moderate taxation, as opposed to the measure introduced that
night, and would give his vote for it accordingly.
Mr. B. ESCOTT thought that if the Members of that
House went back to their constituents, the better it would be
for the country. The Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn, had
given the true solution of the policy of the Government, when
he said that this was the last session of the present Parliament.
But the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Portsmouth,
had told them very significantly that the question of finance
must be considered in Parliament next year. He certainly
thought this his Right Hon. Friend, the able Chancellor of the
Exchequer would (as he was sure the Speaker who had last
spoken, or the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn could) hare
introduced a better measure than that he had presented them.
He thought that when this enormous sum was wanted, a con-
siderable reduction of taxation should have taken place.
Mr. EWART was opposed to the principle of the resolution
introduced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Those whu
looked to the interest of the country, must sooner or later turn
their attention to the principles of direct taxation.
Mr. G. BANKES was glad to see that the measure of the
Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn, was receiving a greater
degree of favour in that House now, than it did when it was
first brought forward. The Noble Lord had proposed that
they should have some return for this outlay of money,
whereas, now it was proposed that they should
advance the large sum of 8,000,0001., without the
least prospect of a return. The Hon. Member for Winchester
was pleased to say that he did not receive the Noble Lord's
proposition when it was firs) propounded, with the same favour
that he did now. No wonder. The Hen. Member, it was
quite clear, up till now had not taken the trouble to under-
stand it. His Noble Friend proposed, not that the money, but
the credit of England, should be brought to the aid
of the people of Ireland ; but Government proposed
they should give, not the credit, brat the money of
England, without a chance of a return.._( Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth has asked his
Noble Friend what was the credit of a country. He would
tell the Right Hon. Baronet, in the words of a distinguished
predecessor of his own, Mr. Pitt said "the credit of a country
was not its storms, but its sunshine, which gives life and spirit
to everything around without injuring the principle from which
it emanates." His Noble Friend had endeavoured to throw
the sunshine of the credit of England over the plains
of Ireland, and he did not envy the man who could
throw his shadow in its way. Ireland had a great
claim upon this country, and England ought not to
shrink from redeeming the pledges of Mr. Pitt, given at the
time of the union. The time had now come when these pro
mises ought to be fulfilled, and the only way to do so, was to
fertilise the plains of Ireland, through the medium of English
credit.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL begged leave to remind the Hon.
Gentleman who had just sat down, that the proposition of the
Noble Lord would not have been a substitute for the eight mil-
lions proposed to be advanced by the Government. The money
advanced under the Noble Lord's Bill would have been in ad-
dition to the eight millions. IVhen the Honourable Gentle-
tleman said that he did not think any portions of
the eight millions would be returned, it was his duty as an
Irish representative to tell him that a portion of it, if not the
whole, which it was proposed to advance as a loan, would be
paid, and punctually paid— at all events, were it not, he should
be prepared to support the application of the principles of di-
rect taxation to Ireland.—( Hear, hear). Much credit was
due to the Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn, for having
mooted the principle of assisting Irish railways with English
capital, and while he did not agree with the details of the
Noble Lord's plan, he hoped shortly to see Government
introduce a measure based upon the same principle.
He was gratified to witness the good feoling on the part of
Hon. Members of that House towards Ireland. He was also
speak
kified in to bsueehatretrhe ms
offl tan. ppllrleehmbatiee for Bath
nr
of the
theee(esrslr. course
t. Roebuck)
pursued by the Government towards Ireland, and seemingly
eteomfoertgimet
essoadmdruecshsed of
theth fiosegeureseat, powers
and
underof reason
r b
ofy
whichwh e h
hh
ee
(Mr. Roebuck) sometimes appealed to the prejudices of Hon.
Members.
Mr. FINCH thought that the present unfavourable state of
the circulation of the country, and the high rate of interest,
arose from the deficiency of a well-regulated system of paper
money. If such a system were in existence, the Chancellor
of the Exchequer would be able to save the sum of 8O0,(1001.
in the loan he was about to contract. He wished to be under-
stood with reference to the proposed grant for the relief of
Ireland, that if the sum of eight, ten, or twenty millions were
to be instrumental in raising the moral and physical condition
of the people of Ireland, he should say that the money would
be well spent.—The resolution was then agreed to.
The House resumed.
Mr. GREENE brought up the report which was ordered
to be reported to-morrow.
LABOURING POOR (IRELAND) BILL.
The report upon this Bill was brought up, and the Bill
ordered to be read a third time to-morrow (Wednesday).
LANDED PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL.
This Bill went through Committee, and the report was
ordered to be received to-nierrow.
AGRICULTURAL TENANT-RIGHT BILL.
Mr. PUSEY moved that this Bill be read a second
time, with an understanding that it should be referred to a
Committee up stairs.
Colonel SIBTHORPE objected to the Bill, as)se thought
it would create a jealousy between landlord and tenant calcu-
lated to produce the greatest mischief.
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT did not object to the measure
though he came down to the House with very different feel-
ings regarding it. lie hoped, however, that atter it was re-
ferred to a Select Committee up stairs, it would come down
shorn of its objeetionable provisions.
Mr. MILES agreed with the Hon. Member who had just
sat down, and he hoped when the Bill should come down
from the Committee it would be such as to be acceptable to all
parties.
After a few words from Mr. FINCH to the same effect,
Mr. NEWDEGATE thought that the object of the Bill
ought to be to assimilate the principle of the Bill with the
practice that prevailed between landlord and tenant, and that
it would be unwise to interpose any bar to mutual agreements
between them.
Mr. B. ESCOTT believed that as this fill was to be sent
up stairs it would be useless to say anything about it, but as
the object of it was the great question among the farmers of
this country, he only trusted that the consequence of
sending it up stairs, would not be, as he feared it would be,
to shelve it for the present session.
Mr. HINDLE Y thought that the Bill had been so care-
lessly drawn that the effect of it would be to render the position
of the farmer worse than it was now, for the consequence
would be only for landlords to keep their tenants constantly
under notice to quit. He trusted, however, if it were sent up
stairs, thatevery clause
thea ucsoeu nwouldtry , the t e t
n searchinglyant s'
rights
in through.
Surrey
and
Sir W. JOLLIFFE thought that if this Bill were to extend
to every part of
Sussex would be very much restricted.
Mr. PUSEY said that in reply to the observation that the
Bill was carelessly phrased, he had to say that it had been drawn
up by one of the first conveyancers in London. From several
years experience with the improvement of the country, he had
been led to turn his attention to this subject, and the Bill was
the result of many years experience.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be re-
ferred to a Select Committee.
BIRTHS, DEATHS, AND MARRIAGES (SCOTLAND
BILL.)
The LORD ADVOCATE moved for leave to bring in a
Bill for the registration of births, deaths, and marriages in
Scotland. Any one, he thought, who was acquainted with the
parochial ree,isters of Scotland, could not fail to see the neces-
sity of such a

FORBES did not so much object to the principle of
the Bill, as to the expenses which it would involve.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
MARRIAGE IN SCOTLAND.
The LORD ADVOCATE moved for leave to introduce a
Bill to amend the law of settlement affecting the constitution
of marriage. His object was to narrow the evidence with re.
spect to marriages, to have them registered, and to make Ole
r.gistry accessible to all parties, and not in any way to affect
r ppo parents
no
tf s co
andn
the religious law on the subject. The subject was one of the
utmost importance to the people of Scotland.
Sir J. GRAHAM said he was excessively glad that such a
measure had been undertaken by the Noble and Learned Lord.
theirpu
He considered that the most flagrant abuses had existed in the
facility which was given to parties not resident in Scotland,
tbruate
timerelyng
marriage passi g
stem
utth et h borderse
ofthe
licence for

guardians.
The LORD ADVOCATE said that the subject was one
of great difficulty, but it would be very easy to introduce a
short clause, by which, the registrar would be prevented from
solemnizing a marri. ge unless one of the parties had been resi-
dent in the country for a certain number of days before the

marriage.
The House then adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock.

PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS.

(From the Votes and Proceeainc,s of the House of Commons.;
NOTICES GIVEN AT THE PRIVATE BILL-OFFICE.
SATURDAY, FEB. 20.
The following Railway Bills are appointed to be read a
second time :

THURSDAY, FEB. 25.
Paisley and Renfrew (Sale and Improvement).
East of Fite (Markinch Deviatru).
Eastern Counties (Ilford to ll!bury Fort and Southend,
with a Branch from Vange to Battle Bridge)
Chester and Holyhead (Extensions at Chester and Holy-
head, &c.)
Dublin and Belfast Junction and Navan Branch.
Dublin and Drogheda (Branch from Navan to Kells).
Birmingham, Wolverilampton, and Stour Valley (No. 2)
Branches.
Cornw,ll.
Oldham Alliance.

FRIDAY, FEB. 26.
Northampton and Banbury.

PETITIONS ON PRIVATE BILLS.
HOUSE OF CONDIONS, FEB. 22.
(Room 22, before Mr. Examiner SMITH.)
UNOPPOSED LIST.
In the following unopposed cases the customary formal
proofs were completed:—
Ipswich and Bury St. Edmund's Railway, No. 3 (Ex-
tension from Bury St. Edmund's to Thetford).
Birmingham and Oxford Junction Railway (Warwick and
Stratford Line).
Birmingham and Oxford Junction Railway Amendment
(Deviation of the line).
Limerick Docks and Harbour Improvement.
Belfast Port and Harbour Acts Amendment, Further Im-
provement, and New Works and Amendment of Belfast and
Cave-hill Railway and Belfast Acts Improvement.
Wakefield Gaslight Act Amendment (Extension of
works).

RaEila:at'eyrnpuCrcmhnasiete)s. Railway (Maldon,Wiitlam, and Braintree

(WPC/SID LIST.
Eastern Counties Railway (Enlargement of Loudon and
Stratford Stations and Amendment Acts).
Eastern Counties Railway (Branch from Stratford to the
Victoria Park).
In these two opposed cases the opposition was not success-
ful, and the customary formal proofs were completed.
(Room 23, before gr. EXaMiCer MAY.)
U XOPPOSID LosT.
In the following unopposed cases the customary formal
proofs were completed :
Midland Railway (k4tension of the Nottingham and Lin-
.

coin Branch Railway at Lincoln, with Connexion Branch to
the Lincoln Station).
Bingley Improvement.
Surrey and Kent Commission of Sewers' Act Amendment.
Bognor Docks.
Great Western of Bengal Railway Company, for the
making and maintaining a Railway from Calcutta to Raja-
malial, in the province of Bengal, with such Extensions and
Branches as may be determined (Incorporation).
Sovereign Lite Assurance Company.
Birmingham, Wolverhampton, and Dudley Railway Act
(Stourbridge and West Bromwich line).

OPPOSED LIST.
MANCHESTER AND SOUTHAMPTON RAILWAY.
This important case was opposed by several parties. It
occupied the rest of the day, but the allegations sustained
were not of a fatal or important character.
It was adjourned till to-morrow (to-day).