The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-06 00:00:00

THE, SCA, LONDON, SATURDAY MORNING, MARCH 6, 1847.

sentenced in this country for some meat heinous offences,
if they were good mechanics or workmen, instead of
finding themselves worse off' than they had b--en
in this country, they found their situations infinitely
improved. He remembered the case of some convicts
sent from this country ; they were agricultural labourers
sentenced in consequence of the riots of 1830, when so
severe a distress existed in Kent and Dorsetshire.
Many of them were extremely good agricultural
labourers, and consequently their services were
much sought after. When they were assigned
their masters were extremely anxious to keep them in
g ood humour ; and these men, whom the Government
meant to punish, were far better off than they had ever
been iu England. The cause of these riots was the
severe pressure and distress which existed ; and they
who had be€ n receiving 7s. or Bs. per week wages, and
living on the most scanty diet, received the most enor-
mous rations out in their place of transportation.
In some cases it was no punishment at all, while in other cases
it was a punishment of the severest kind. In many cases the
assigned convict was a frightful slave to his master, who, if he
were brutal or urgent, might subject him to a continued system
of annoyance and ill-treatment, and if he were stung into mu-
tiny and resistence, he was liable to be dragged before a ma-
gistrate, who, upon the representation of the master, sentenced
him to the most cruel corporal punishment. The returns on
this subject showed that this punishment was one of the great-
est suffering. This punishment was without its moral effect
in deterring crime, while those, who from the circumstance he
had described, were better treated, wrote to their friends, tell-
ing them how well they were off, and holding forth induce-
ment to them, to the commission of crime, to enable them to
come out to them. When he was Under Secretary for the
Colonies, he had opportunities of seeing several of these letters,
which painted the condition of the writers in very glowing co-
lours. No doubt these representations were sometimes false, but
their tendency was injurious. The Committee of 1838 had some
to a determination that the system of assignment should be done
away with, and a resolution to that effect was laid before the
House of Commons. Measures were then taken to abolish that
system, and it was determined that a much smaller number
should be sent out than before. The system which Lord John
Russell then proposed to introduce was to extend the system of
imprisonment at home. But in 1841 it was moved that it was
inexpedient that there should be such a number of convicts in
the hulks. That motion was resisted on the part of the Go-
vernment, but it was carried by a great majority of the House
of Commons. He believed this occurred when there were few
in the House, and in the month of March, and it happened to-
wards the conclusion of the Melbourne Administration; and no
measure was adopted for carrying that resolution into effect
during the Melbourne Administration. But there was a
change of Government. It was determined that the views of
the House of Commons should be acted upon, and after a good
deal of discussion, it was decided that the convicts
should be sent abroad, except a comparatively
small number, such as were more proper
subjects of the description of Pentonville, Parkhurst, and the
hulks, and those whose age made it expedient to send them out
of the country ; but the rest were sent either to the Bermudas
or to Norfolk Island. In consequence of that measure a large
number were sent to these parts. He confessed that at the
time he entertained the strongest convictions that this would
lead to a very great evil, that great mischief would result to
those colonies unless there was a system for carrying on pun-
ishment adequate to the occasion. Their Lordships would
remember too, that at that great distance from the control of
Government, when anything unusual, or requiring attention,
could only receive that after a year's delay and wasting time to
the Government, looking at that their Lordships must feel that
the difficulty of carrying out a system of penal labour was
great indeed. In 1:643, therefore, although previously the
system had been adopted to a considerable extent, a large
number of convicts were yet to be sent abroad.
If, however, he said transportation to Van Dieman's Land had
been confined to a; small number of persons, he believed
that the impression produced on the imagination of
men respecting punishment' inflicted by society, and at a dis-
tance, and the regret of being lost sight of by their friends
would have counterbalanced the evil, in a great measure, of
carrying out that system of punishment at a distance. But
when this system was still applied generally--not to a few
hundreds, as proposed originally, but to many thousands--when
a system of this kind was carried out in Bermuda, he believed
it was utterly impossible that any other result could have been
anticipated than that which actually occurred. Now, he
thought the papers which had been lately laid on the table,
would prove to their Lordships that the anticipations which had
been formed with respect to this system, were but too well
founded ; but he would not disgust their Lordships by the
horrible, the monstrous details of the abuses which had
sprung up in Norfolk Island. A state of things had been
proved, upon evidence, to exist there, the particulars of which
could not be doubted by the general effect of that evidence,
which made it perfectly clear that a system had been allowed
to grow up in that small island, the details of which, were too
horrible to mention.—(Hear.) It had been proved to the dis-
grace of the British name, that a system existed there, which
was a disgrace to the British ilag. Very shortly after he was
appointed to the office which he had the honour to liold,t,,he
found that the condition of Van Dieman's Land was so con-
clusive against any continuation of the system, that he in-
structed the new Governor, before lie left this country, to
break up the establishment there, and he was happy to find
that his predecessor (Sir E. Wilmot) had anticipated that
order, as he had taken measures to break up the convict esta-
blishments in the island. The fearful outbreak in the island
would perhaps have been successful, had not some troops op-
portunely arrived ; had they not, they might have over-
powered the small body of troops, and destroyed the flee in-
habitants of the colony. The breaking up of the establish-
ment was, therefore, inevitable ; but he was concerned to state
' that Van Dieman's Land was not in a much better state ; it
was in a state fearful to enter into, and those of their Lordships
who had looked at the evidence could not fail to be dissatisfied
with the present condition of that colony. He had often heard '
of the abuses of the hulks, but he must say the worst of them
was well managed compared with the colony of Van Dieman's
Land. He had eyery evidence that the system was as bad as
it could well be. For though the governor and superinterdents
of the colony did not altogether support this extreme view of the
state of things, Sir Eardlev Wilmett and Sir John Franklin,
admitted that the system was most injurious. From other
quarters he had received accounts to a similar effect. Last
year the Noble Lord the President of the Canned, presented
a petition signed by the Bishop of the colony and a great
, number of the most respectable inhabitants, calling attention
to the deplorable state of things. It was signed by from 1,7110
to 1,800 of the colonists, who described in the strongest terms
the condition to which the colony had been reduced, and that
there was no security for life and property. He lied also seen
within the last few months persons from the colony who, to
the fullest extent supported this view of the state of things. He
had seen the Protestant Bishop, as well as the Roman Ca-
tholic Bishop, and both the night Reverend Bishops stated
that the future prospects of the colony were frightful to con-
template. Then, with regard to the expenditure which had
been necessary to effect this system of transportation, it
was so large, that he was convinced, hail it
been applied under a well conceived system of em-
ploying the convicts in this country, it would have
been sufficient to erect places of punishment of the best
character for those who offended the laws. Under the present
system the colony had been almost ruined. But further, he
was forced to say that in consequence of this system it was too
true that a great many of the most valuable settlers in Van
Dieman's Land had been forced to quit. A most serious blow
had been given to the property of the colony by this large in-
-I>u& of convicts which was poured into it. Van Dieman's
Land had been formerly a thriving and prosperous colony, but
from the time that this enormous influx of convicts was poured
into it, the state of things was greatly altered. lie was far
from attributing that change to that circumstance alone. He
knew that commercial distress existed in this country—that
there was a reaction from over speculation, and from various
other causes of that kind. No doubt the distress in Great
Britain had as&sted the change in the colony, but it was
also certain that the system of sending large numbers of con-
victs to Van Dieman's Land was one cause of the failing in
that prosperity. And it had been said that the deterioration in
that coliefiy was not so much owing to the system
as to the inability of the persons by whom that system had
been carried out ; it had been said that a greater degree of
energy on the part of the principal officers, to whom the Go-
vernment had committed the superintendence of Van Diemen's
Land and Norfolk Island and instructed the management of
the convicts, would have produced a different result. He could
not adopt that opinion. In the first place, her Majesty's Go-
vernment had the choice of the agents to whom that superin-
tendence was committed ; but, without pretending to deny
that there might have been faults on the part of the authorities
—a question on which he did not wish to give any opinion
either one way or the other—but without pretending to deny
that such might have been the case, he still was strongly of
opinion that it was impossible for them in the difficult position
in which they were placed to have carried out this system so
as to have led to a satisfactory result, because, if their Lord-
ships would allow him to remind them, the carrying into effect
the system of penal labour had always been found most diffi
cult and unsatisfactory, whether that system had been tried
in the colonies of this country or in America.
Whether it bad been tried in this country or in America, it
had always been found that any system of punishment hitherto
adopted had met with very great difficulties and obstructions.
It Lad already appeared that these difficulties and obstructions
had been multiplied tenfold when the system hail to be worked
by a delegated authority, removed to as great a distance as Van
Diemen's Land, or Norfolk Island, from this country. And
from those who had the responsibility of carrying into effect,
and ordering the system, and who should look well into the
practical operation. It sheuld be closely watched from day to
day ; and whenever abuses seemed to be rising, they should he
instantly triaent
ittnlaysnetcpihyaer
mac checked
im
edder
boayn d when any errors arose—and errors
those asystem
inen aonft‘thoe, d—ity. sucorrectionutshhooruitld
as the Lieutenant-Governor of Van Die-man's Land could notY
be sufficient ; for,
in the first place, he was bound to consult
his interior officers, and the Deputy Governor, before he could
make any material alteration of the plans or made any material
change, he was bound to wait until ho could receive authority
from home to the purpose. In Norfolk Island this was still nearer
the case. The administrator of punishment in Norfolk Island
was the delegate of a delegate. The Governor of Van Die-
man's Land was the authority to whom he immediately looked,
and over him was her Majesty's Government at home. The
communication between Van Dieman's Land and Norfolk
Island was very irregular and slow, and it was kept up by
sailing vessels, so that the opportunities of communication were
very rare, and in Norfolk Island, there being no free inhabi-
tants, so that if any of the officers there found anything going
wrong, there was no means of obtaining any improvement ex•
cept by the slow process of appealing to the separate authori-
ties at Van Dieman's Land or here. Again, one of the great dif-
ficulties of any good system of punishment was the difficulty
of finding proper agents to carry on the executive part. When
he spoke of proper agents, he meant more especially the subor-
dinate agents. Most of their Lordships had had more or less
knowledge of the means by which prisons were conducted in
this country, and they all knew that the efficiency of a prison
discipline depended almost as much upon the inferior officers
as upon the governors. If they had not trustworthy officers it
was impossible for the best governors to carry on a good sys-
tem of discipline. In Van Dieman's Land there was great
difficulty in obtaining trustworthy officers ; and that diffi-
culty was infinitely greater than over here. In Norfolk Island
it was greater still. In the first place, it was impossible, be-
cause the scale of remuneration was much higher there than
it was in this country, and the salary which in this country
would secure the services of a first-rate person in his rank of
life would, in the colonies, be wholly insufficient. Their
Lordships were aware that even the lowest artificers received
very high wages in the colonies, and many of those persons
who had been sent out by the Government as officers over the
convicts had been tempted out of the service by the superior
offers made to them by merchants to go to them in the capacity
or clerks. Even s-apposing that the Government were to go
t'i a greater expense than it did at present, it would then find
cmost the impossibility of obtaining proper agents for their
1,11:73ew. But now that in smaller colonies, like Van Dieman's
. .
vet' ere he was afraid party spirit and party division ran
nigh, at was extremely difficult to get overseers who
were not generally implicated in these local dis plates, or influenced byother -
operate on the human considerations which naturally
vernor had not the a mind.
At the same time the go-
seers who might be inefficient,
to remove any of these over-
conld only suspend him, ande'lli.
tk; as existed at home. He
reversed by the Secretary of
State
was always liable to be
induce him to proceed only on
nevserwhiich would naturally
pricing him of the power of immediatelycear case ; thus de-
pricing
functionary. Besides, if a, suspending an
overseer died, it was

very Efficult to replace him. Moreover, when they came to
look at Norfolk Island, they found that they had a very
s'rious difficulty to encounter, for few men, such as they
would wish to employ, would like to live there. Excluded
(rem civilised society, without any one with whom to associate
but those who were employed in the same capacity as them-
selves or the criminals they were to guard,—he believed that it
was quite impossible for men so situated, not to be deteriorated
in character. It was impossible that their moral qualities
should not suffer from the atmosphere in which they were
placed. He believed that the reason of government, in this
particular, being more easy at home was, that they could em-
ploy men as overseers, who were not excluded from all social
intercourse, or compelled to associate only with those who
were employed in a similar capacity, or those over whom they
were placed. This was the reason of the inefficiency in the
government of convicts at home. It was this consideration
that led her Majesty's Government to the conclusion that
punishment at home could be effected more safely at a cheaper
cost, and more efficiently, at home than in a distant colony.
From a system of punishment properly conducted at home
they would derive this advantage, that they would have the
power of immediately checking abuse, the power of instantly
ejecting officers that proved inefficient, the power of correcting
any errors that might be made in the general regulations—all
those advantages which were altogether wanting to the colonies
would be enjoyed to the fullest extent, by carrying out a sys-
tem of punishment at home. Such then, was the determine-
tien of the Government. It was proposed still to look to penal
labour and imprisonment as the elements of punishment. It
was proposed to consider whatever would tend to the reforma-
tion of the offender; and therefore it was determined that
every criminal sentenced to transportation, should undergo a
period longer or shorter as the crime might be, of what had
been called separate imprisonment—that no criminal
sentenced to transportation should escape what was called se-
parate confinement. Their experience for the last three or
four years had satisfied them of the good effect likely to be
produced by this system. It was most efficient in those who
seemed least capable of impression, and beneficent
on those most capable of reformation—( Hear)—but he
thought that that was a mode of punishment which ought to
be carried out with great caution.--(Hear hear.) It could
not be carried out to a very great extent, and he thought the
Noble Duke, from his observation, as a Commissioner of
Pentonville, would concur with him that it could not be car-
ried beyond a very short period. It had been proposed, there-
fore, that every offender should undergo a period of separate
confinement, not longer than eighteen months. That was the
longest term for an offence of the gravest character.
Lord BROUHAM.—Eighteen months continuously?
Earl GREY.—Yes. Continuously. The medical officers
of Pentonville had watched narrowly the effect of the punish-
ment of separate confinement, and they reported that eighteen
months was safe. Mr. Brodie and Dr. Ferguson had re-
ported that separate confinement could not be continued be-
yond eighteen months ; it was safe within that time, and
that with due care over the condition of the patient, as the
period advanced, it might be inflicted with safety. It was
clear, however, that if separate confinement should be adopted
that alone would fall short of the object, in ,the case of
an offender guilty of a grave offence. Let them take, for
instance, a case of aggravated manslaughter, where the jury has
hesitated whether they ought to convict the man of murder or
of manslaughter, and when the man was sentenced to trans-
portation
for life, it was clear in that case that eighteen months
separate confinement would be very inadequate. It was pro-
posed, therefore, under separate confinement that every of-
fender should undergo a further punishment by labour on the
public works. He was aware that mode of punishment was
liable to great objections. Formerly it was carried on in the
hulks, and it laboured under great objections, and these, too,
very just. But he could not help thinking that these objections
append rather to the manner than the nature of that punish-
ment.—( Hear, hear.) He did not believe that penal labour,
when the offenders were allowed to associate together, had a
tendency to raise any such objection as had been taken. The
objection to the system formerly adopted was, that coercion by
the lash was the only thing which the prisoners in the hulks
had to fear, and the superintendence on board those ships was
most inadequate from the want of a sufficient number of offi•
core. The whole system, in short, required very great im-
-1 rovernent ; but of late years many improvements had been
effected, and they would be carried much further. Now they
proposed that convicts should be employed on the public works
under a system by which he hoped the evils which genera'ly
arose by the associating together of large bodies of convicts
would be, to a very great extent, remedied. In the first
place, it would certainly contribute to this end that each con-
vict would undergo a preliminary and sepa• ate period of con-
finement, and except upon the most hardened, that period of
confinement would make an impression upon their minds which
would greatly facilitate the maintenance of a proper system
of discipline after their liberation, and employment upon
the public works ; but if a convict miscunducted himself on the
public works he would render himself liable to be sent back
to undergo a further period of punishment by imprisonment.
But what he looked at as a matter of extreme impor ante, was
the system under which the public works were to be carried on.
Their Lordships were, no doubt, aware of the plan proposed
with this view by Captain Macunochie, but the trial which was
made of it under his own superintendence was very far from
successful ; it was right to state that he attributed its failure to
the difficulties which he had to encounter, and which, he said,
would not occur for the future ; but looking at the experiment
which had been made, and relying upon the judgment of those
who had had much experience in the subject of criminal dis-
cipline, he (Earl Grey) could not help stating that he was im-
pressed with the conviction that the plan of Captain elaconochie
as proposed by himself. could not be practically carried into
effect. Still he thought there was much in his suggestions
which was valuable, and that his fundamental plan was
good. It was this, that convicts should be employed on
public e arks, or to be subject to a system by which they
should have a great and direct interest in their
own good conduct and industry, not only in the
abridgment of the period of their sentence, hut in the enjoy.
ment of certain immediate advantages. He (Earl Grey) was
convinced that this was an essentially sound and good plan, but
it was one which had been already tried, as at Bermuda and
Gibraltar the convicts had a direct interest in the labour which
they performed, and was found to be of the greatest potable
value, as it not only paid the expense of their maintenance and
superintendence, but left a considerable annual surplus besides.
In Gibraltar the gain of a convict fer four years was some •
where about 42./., or about 101. a year, and this was effected
with the best results to the colony. Where the value of the
work was small, as in Van Dieman's Land, they
were naturally led to the conclusion that the system was lax ;
but where, as in the case of Gibraltar, they find the labour of
the convicts producing this result, they might naturally con-
clude that the system in force was a good one. Hitherto the
means of release had been dependent upon a convict's good con-
duct, as a pet son who behaved himself well whilst on board the
hulks, stood a chance of being recommended to have his liberty
guaranteed to him. No doubt labour upon the public works in
the way he had pointed out, would be found most valuable as
a punishment. With respect to the period for which a person
was to be employed on the public works, it was intended
that every man who really conducted himself well, who
was industrious, and who did not do anything which would
subject him to fresh punishment, shall be able to obtain his
liberty at the expiration of about one-half the period of his
sentence. This role had been acted upon in the Hulks, and
transportation for life was commuted into twenty-one years'
banishment ; or that if be conducted himself well who was
transported for seven years, might obtain his discharge after
three and a half or four years banishment. In continuing
this system they intended to retain what he thought was the
real advantage in the former system of transportation, for it
was not without compensating advantages. In this country a
man who had his character blasted by undergoing punishment,
found at the expiration of his sentence, however good his in-
tentions, however strong his desire to give up his criminal ha.
bits, and to return to a life of honest industry, that there were
yet difficulties in the way of his accomplishing his purpese—
(Hear, hear)—a3 almost every description of employ-
ment was closed against him, and wherever he went
to seek employment, he found others selected instead of him ;
and therefore, however strong this good intention might be,
he was frequently driven by absolute distress again into the
commission of crime.—( Hear, hear.) The case was different
in the colonies, as there was a great demand for labour. In
New South Wales many convicts who had obtained tickets of I
leave had amassed large fortunes—in fact, in many in•
stances this had been carried to an extent which was in-
jurious ; therefore they proposed, that during the latter period
of his employment, he should be allowed wages nearly the
full value of his labour, but that it should be retained, with
the exception of a smell portion to encourage him in his pre-
sent efforts, until the expiration of his sentence, in order that
he might have the means of emigrating ; and, following up,
as far as possible, the system in force in the colonies, it was
proposed that those who had secured the means of
paying their way to the colonies, and who had conducted them-
selves well, should receive a conditional pardon, the condition
being that they should not remain in England. The plan was
in force in Van Dieman's Land, and was this— that a convict,
when he received a conditional pardon, might o where he
liked, but that he must not return to England until his term
had expired. Generally they had no wish to do so, as they
found it would be more advantageous to them to stop in the
colony. He w as encouraged to hope that this system would be
attended with the best results, judging from the condition of the
exiles who had been sent to Port Philip from Pentonville Pri-
son. Those who had gone to Van Dieman's Land had not suc-
ceeded so well, on account of the state of the color.y, and from
the difficulty of obtaining employment, owing to the immense
number of convicts who had congregated there ; in fact, they
had increased to such an extent, as to render it necessary
for the Government to maintain them, and the last
return showed that there were no less than 3,000 awaiting
hiring in probation gangs. It was not, however, proposed
that the men should go out without their families. It was true
that to those who h-ft Pentonville this was not allowed, as
they had undergone but a short period of imprisonment; but
when, after a long imprisonment, they were sent abroad,
and could by their earnings, take their families with them,
they would be allowed to do so ; and to this he (Earl Grey )
attached the utmost importance, as this would, in a great
mea'ure, do away with the disparity in the sexes which
existed in many of our colonies ; and if the Go-
vernment did not allow it, they stood without ex-
cuse. The thought, also, that the sojourn in this country
would give time for teaching those who were ignorant to read
and write and to acquire some trade which might be useful to
them in the colony, so that they would have a class of persons
going to their colonies who would be found of great advantage.
He hoped also that they would be sent out in such a way in
which they would not be recognised as criminals on their ar-
rival at their destination. They would go as paid passengers
on board the ordinary emigrant ships amerigst other emigrants,
so that they would not be recognised from those on their ar-
rival, or if they were, they would soon overcome any prejudice
which might be created against them. It was right to state,
that at a meeting recently held at Port Philip, it was urged
that advantage would accrue by sending more exiles to that
part of New South Wales. Where parties would become
responsible for the future conduct of the convicts, they
would be liberated on leaving the public works, instead of
being sent out of the colony, as this plan of emi-
gration did not partake of a penal character. The next
point was when the proposed alterations would be carried into
effect. From information he had received, bo found that in
the course of the present year, it was calculated that means
were already available for the separate confinement of the
prisoners. In addition to the accommodation which the Pen-
tonville, Parkhurst, and Illillbank prisons would afford, the
prisons in the various counties would, when not fully tenanted,
be available for this purpose, as the support of the prisoners
was now paid by the State, and not out of the county rates.
But this duration only applied to Great Britain as in Ireland,
he was sorry to say there was riot the required accommodation
for the separate confinement of the convict, but no time would
be lost in providing the necessary receptacles. Prisons, on the
plan of the Pentonville prison, were prepared. With regard
to the reception of the convicts, after the completion of their
confinement, he might state that it would be necessary to use
the hulks as at present, but nothing would be left undone
to improve them. A great deal had been recently done
in the appointment of additional officers, and in the promotion
of a better discipline than heretofore; yet he admitted after
all that the hulks were most imperfect prisons, and that re-
ceptaclesgs on shore should
oulecin
course
esen
f providedbeinign lieuen
reieht be removed from lace to place as the position of the
public works required. cotefdt,hesrthlaVtoode Wooden
they
in
The Duke of WELLINGTON—Why not of iron?
Earl GREY—The Noble Duke inquired why they were not
to be constructed of iron. He would inform him that wood, in
the opinion of engineers, would be both cheaper and more ad-
vantageous. The convicts could be employed in quarrying
stones and in labouring at harbours of refuge, which ,
the Noble Duke was so anxious to see carried out.

Such were the measures which the Government proposed with ?
regard to the male convicts. It was necessary that they should I,
observe that he had confined himself in all the observations to ‘
adult male convicts. With respect to the female convicts, it
was intended, for the present, that they should continue to be
sent to Van Dieman's Land. Considerable pains had been
taken in improving and establishing, for the reception of female
convicts, proper places in Van Dieman's Land. There was
not much difficulty experienced in disposing of them, and,
therefore, at present, it was proposed to continue sending them
there. With respect to the class of juvenile offenders, some
considerable modification of the system he had endeavoured to
describe to their Lordships, would be necessary. On that
subject, it was inexpedient that they should then enter. It
would be necessary that their Lordships' attention should be
called to it at a very early period, and therefore, for the present,
they might dispense with all reference to that head. Wisat he
had stated, applied to the prison discipline, which it was pro-
posed to adopt with respect to the male adult convicts. Such
were the measures upon which her Majesty's Government had
come to a general change of policy; he had endeavoured to
describe it as it would be adopted. He had no further ob-
servations to make, and in conclusion, he would beg their
Lordships to assent to the second reading of the Bill before
them.
Lord BROUGHAM said that nothing could be more sa' is.
factory to him than to express his entire approval, and, indeed,
lie might say, his admiration of the clear, distinct, and candid
statement made by his Noble Friend who had just sat down.
He would not then enter upon the large subject opened to the
attention of their Lordships, further than simply to state that
some doubt remained upon his mind with respect to the main
object of the
,Noble Earl's remarks—the total abolition of
transportation. He came entirely to the same result from an
examination, not only of the evidence, respecting the subject
this Bill referred to, but from a long course of observation and
experience in the public service in that respect, and from exa-
mining with great attention all the high authorities upon that
important branch of criminal jurisprudence. He had come to
the same conclusion, generally speaking, regarding that branch
of penal infliction, that punishment by transportation ought to
cease. Some doubts rested on his mind, which he had some
unwillingness to mention, on this subject. The much-to-be-
lamented father of the Noble Earl, who brought forward this
subject, having been addressed by Archbishop Whateley, in an
able pamphlet, entitled " a letter to Earl Grey upon the sub-
ject of Transportation," and published in 1833,
he (Lord Brougham) agreed with the opinion ex-
pressed by the Archbishop, with one exception,
namely, he was unwilling to give up transportation absolutely
and entirely in all cases. He had great doubts if it would be
safe in certain cases—these cases being the exception, and by
I no means the rule—that in certain cases of peculiar description
that punishment might advantageously be retained. The great
objection to transportation—politically and economically—was
not the objection to which reference had been made. He could
state that in the penal colonies it was not difficult to find a
place in which the sentence might be safely executed. The
great objection was the nature and the incurable inequality of
the punishment. To one person it was a very grave punish.
ment—the greatest punishment, perhaps, next to death. To
other persons it wore a very different aspect—the aspect only
of terror, dislike, and aversion—and, to a third class, it was
really little or no punishment at all. The great
objection to transportation as a suitable punishment
was, that it could not be inflicted in the nature of a
punishment. It was never to be lost sight of, however,
inasmuch as they still considered it as a punishment, and it
might have some effect in deterring by example. The aspect
as l i hsut
pmt
entirely.
nleeyntt i tar
nine
lwday
made
aes l t
osv
so great
Theyti
goh
rue
ewsr
a,
et to various various individuals, and it
might be used for the purpose of deterring some from crime
tihmaei
o.-
--a
fs
al
sao
alter it
but he
aboutdhieffewr
teaonscalehuainitned
abandon
s nature.
rtai
transpor-
tation
they ought not rashly to give up any means of punishment,
provided even in a few cases it was likely to produce effect as an
example. Capital punishment they all knew and thought
ought to be very sparingly inflicted, and some thought that it
ought to be abolished altogether. He differed from those per
ons who held the last opinion, and agreed with those who
thought it ought to be sparingly inflicted. Nevertheless he
could not give up capital punishment as a means of deterring
others, because there might be only three or four periods of the
year in which they could find a proper subject to whom the
capital infliction ought to be applied. He would not give up
any punishment, although only applicable to a few instances,
provided it produced a beneficial effect ; and for that reason he
was, upon the whole, doubtful whether they ought to
abandon traesportation—not as a punishment to be carried
out upon every offender, but yet it might be pos-
sible to make it of use in certain cases, although
in a very limited number of instances. He thought
that the objection of the Noble Earl that the punishment was
one of great inequality in its operation, was well founded, but
the few cases to which he alluded, that objection would not
apply. He should not, upon the whole, think it safe to confine
it to persons of an inferior rank of life, but rather to those of a
superior class. He had reason to think that to persons of that
description, it must be the most awful punishment that could be I
inflicted next to death. It might have afforded a strong
example in the case of a malefactor who perished some years
ago for forgery ; that would have been a proper case for the in-
fliction of transportation. A great malefactor had not very
long since been punished by his Noble Friend opposite (Lord
Denman), and to persons of that description and class such a
sentence was next to death. It was the greatest which could
be inflicted upon persons such as the recivers of stolen goods,
who carried on their detestable trade—a trade about which the
law, and the administrators of the law, were universally and
perpetually in conflict. The traffic carried on by these persons
was driven with a certain capital—in fact, they were persons of
no little resources in point of money—they were persons who,
outwardly to the eyes of the world, had a certain standing and
appearance of respectability in society. To such persons it
would almost be as bad as to any person in the highest rank of
life to have denounced against them the sentence of trans-
portation for fourteen years, or for life, for their offences.
These offences were the very " pabulum"—the root—the
source from whence the various depredations committed by
thieves—thieves of all ages and descriptions—sprung. His
Noble Friend, who was in the same profession as kimself, must
remember well many cases painful to contemplate, in which he
had seen bankruptcies, and absolute insolvency and
ruin of the respectable trader, from the facilities of
disposal which these receivers possess without any doubt, and
enabled the servants and apprentices to commit depredations
from week to week upon their employers. He could not help
feeling that for some such culprits as these, to whom that
punishment was a terror, he should be somewhat reluctant to
accede to the abandonment of the punishment of transporta-
tion. He had another observation to make with regard to the
Noble Ear's statement, for it contained one point with whir h
he did not agree, and that was with respect to deportation.
He d:d not attempt to oppose it, but he would throw out
rather a suggestion for consideration. The first observation of
the Noble Earl on the subject had left him rather in doubt and
difficulty as to the manner of inflicting the sentence of depor-
tation. It appeared that a person, after he had gone over his
term of penal labour, and might be supposed to be nearly, if
not quite, reformed, was to be sent to Australia in an emigrant
ship. They were told that he was not sent out as a punish-
ment, but in order to remove him from the society he had dis-
graced. if the convict were to be allowed to go voluntarily,
then he might go whither he would, but if not he could under-
stand that the removal was only to be a part of the
punishment to be
pmeingahltlatbiuoturheheth
matust
eo whether he will or not—he himself could regard it in no
of
inflicted, and that the convict was only
liberated from labour. If the convict were to be told that
ohutthoef hislanguage t erm ouf
sheids
good, the fact was the same, and he had no
although the convict might be told that it was
offenders would have the acuteness to
the moment haeithgnoutg
for own
cao all
ihm
doubterur atlr his
hilgdah:t t
vaienrdy
juvenile
from their station and manners, be dis-
covered and they would not be very long
make answer, " 'fhen I„wish you would employ it upon your-
faPuvrre(e)bbaaebeinlYine would be drawn across the deck—one
self, and not upon me. If they were expected to go as emi-
grants in an emigrant ship his Noble Friend would find that
soiihndeebyoowafrotdutholebdh:saip being
With regard to the system of exile there
could be no doubt about it. He could not conceive it possible
that in the year 1847 they were about to revive and restore
that old abandoned, that entirely abandoned, punishment of
the Scotch law—banishment forth of Scotland, with re-
spect to which Sir George Mackenzie had written
nearly one hundred and twenty years ago. It was clearing
out their malefactors to send them to their neighbours ; but
two could play at that game—(A laugh)—and their neigh-
bours could send over their convicts to this country. Mr.
Alison had also written, about a year ago, upon this ex-
ploded punishment, which was repealed in the reign of George
long been
the Fourth, and which had recorded as a law of
barbarism, and
only fit for the infant stages of society. Cer-
tainly they could not avoid calling the plan the punishment of
exile, because they merely said that it was for the good of the
person, whom they did not even allow to choose his place of
residence. As soon as the penal sentence was over—as soon
as the labour was over—the remaining part of the sentence was
to be that he should go abroad. They state it to be no part
of the sentence, and yet it was compulsory upon the criminal,
who was to be compelled to go, and to be told that it was only
to prevent him from offending again. According to that they
might say that the infliction of death might be no part of a
from offending again-- (A laugh. ) They might say to a cri-
punishment, because it would effectually prevent the prisoner
minal in his last moments—" It is not a punishment, we are
a limb_ only going to remove you "—as the surgeon said with regard
to Laughter)—" We are only going to remove your
head; it is no punishment. We are only going to remove you
from society, that you are not likely to err again. It is true
we remove you by inflicting a wound, which you are not likely
easily to get over, but we hinder you from again offending."—
(Laughter.) The same observation would apply to the sys-
tem of compulsory exile. if they weie to gn away only by
the aid of the Government, they would, in all probability, go
to the nearest place, which was Calais, and thin they would
perhaps return. And how were they to prevent that? A Liverpool
What would the Custom-house say when they heard the an-
' swer to the question of" What cargo have you brought—wheat,
man might go up to London, and a London man to Liverpool
sugar, or cotton ?" The reply would be--‘ No, n_oe, wsekhedave
a cargo of convicts."—( Laughter.) They would b
They were
would in thebest French they could muster say,
le who
highway robbers, forgers, and perjured persons—peop
ll
" What kind of goods are those ?" And the perso,n,s on' board
have broken all the statutes of the law, but they
kinds of
car-
goesre-
formed.—(Laughter.) He suspected that
dutythem teo.
They would be apt to say that they could not allow.
their convicts the
come there, and if they were to send them . .
would meet with a pretty high prohibitoryyese insForanc
would send over all their convicts to this country—(Laughter)
—and that proceeding he did not think likely to increase. the
French people would adopt the principle of reciprocity and
ed at the at-
tempted these difficulties he did feel a little astonish
that this
benefit of the entente cordiale.—( Loud laughter.) Consider-
tempted introduction of an ancient and exploded law. There
was, however, one further consideration, namely,
plan could never be adopted or adhered to, He assured them
that it never could be. He did not think that anything so
preposterous would ever be adhered to, as a plan for turning
upon the French shores all our convicts, after a certain
period of labour. In introducing a cargo of such people to
any place, what conversation would take place—for instance,
with the Mayor of Calais they would have to admit what they
were. They would have to say, " These people have com-
mitted various crimes, but they are at present nearly or quite
reformed, and we have just brought them over." The
chaplain of the penitentiary would say, "Oh ! they
are reformed—they are very excellent people, they
are very worthy and good people, they have
committed robberies and forgeries, but they are
in process of reformation." The Mayor of Calais would ne-
cessarily say, "We have here plenty of excellent people
amongst ourselves; pray keep them, for we do not want them;
we have plenty of the best people of Europe its every rank of
crime and degree of reformation. We do not want any impor-
tation of worthy and good persons upon our side of the water,
but if you do leave them we shall order—with the view of
keeping up the entente cordiale—some very good people of ours
t be sent to you." That would be one of the effects of intro-
ducing this obsolete penalty of banishment. There was one
instance of its having been tried of late years, and that was when
one of six Acts was introduced. With the aid of his Noble
Friend opposite, who was then with him in the other House of
Parliament, he had done all he possibly could to prevent it from
passing. They moved heaven and earth to effect their object,
but they were defeated. The principle of that Bill was not so
objectionable as the principle of the present one—it was for the
purpose of sending away political libellers. The I codle of
France might nut object to a political libeller, but they might
object to the carrying over a cargo of ruffians from all parts of
St. Giles. That Act, however, was never once put in force;
and not one single instance of the prosecution of a political li-

beller occurred e' der it. The other parts of the statement
made by the Noble Lord were very satisfactory, particularly
that relating to the improvement of prisons and eriten disci-
pline. The improvement of prison discipline would cause con-
siderable expense; but the more they examined the subject
the more they would be of opinion that very considerable and,
he might say, lavish expenditure of the public money would
be required, and better it could not be expended than for the
tthe f cgaouos,ei s o
prisons; th e wantaod
he hoped much time would not elapse before he would
of
fu rgpooos
de ofp r
ips loony iddi tot p
lfii
ot
e gaols.
was
see a considerable addition to the number of gaols—
thOenewaonf
each gaol accompanied by the means of proper and
efficient indeateial employment, either in the gar-
den or field, pri-on discipline could only be
perfected, and the reformatory process could only be completed
by such a plan. If they talked of expense it was a monstrous
absurdity, and grossly inconsistent, for they were daily expend-
ing thousands, and he might say hundreds of thousands on mat-
ters of less importance than the one under consideration. They
were about to abolish tranportation generally, even if
they retained it in the few instances in which he thought
it ought to be retained, and the abolition of it up to the
large scale upon which it had hitherto been conducted,
would place at their disposal 600,000/. per annum—for
the present cost of their penal colonies was actually
600,000!. If they abolished transportation upon the
larger scale, and retained it upon the smaller scale, as
applied to individuals as seldom as possible, they would
retain a large revenue, out of which they could without the
least difficulty construct gaols; and even penal farms and
gardens, with less expense, than they at present calculated
upon. He was very glad to hear the Noble Earl's accounts
from Gibraltar,—indeed, it exceeded his best expectations,—
for he had no idea that anything so gond had been effected.
The Ncble Earl stated that between 101. and 121. was the
annual g in upon the work of one convict at Gibraltar, above
the expense and cost of his maintenance and clothes ; the ex-
pense of his carriage there being alone excepted. That re-
port was very gratifying.
Earl GREY—That does not include the expense of his
transportation and various other charges.
Lord BROUGHAM—It included his maintenance, clothing,
and lodging; and above that was earned the sum of 42/. in
four years, from the actual profit of his labour. It was a most
satisfactory result, and he gave his best wishes to the system
which inculcated such industrious habits upon the part of the
prisoners. He had devoted a great portion of his time to this
subject, and he had thought it proper to trouble the House
with these remarks, and, in conclusion, he begged to express
his acquiescence in the Bill proposed by the Noble Earl.
Lord STANLEY said that he was quite aware that there
were many Members in their Lordships' House who were more
competent to address themselves to this question than he was,
but he trusted that, from the position which he had had the
honour of holding, he would be excused if he trespassed for a
short time upon their attention. He was the more anxious to
take this opportunity, because, if he rightly understood his
Noble Friend, this was the last opportunity which was likely
to be affording their Lordships of expressing their opinions
upon the subject. This Bill proposed to substitute a better
system of secondary punishment for that which had hitherto
existed; but he could not help thinking that her Majesty's
Government, in their efforts to limit the extent of the
evil, had too readily adopted a new principle, and too hastily
departed from a system which appeared to him (Lord Stanley)
most valuable, however subject it might have been to abuses.
He had, at the same time, to express his regret, if he had
correctly interpreted the announcement of the Government, that
this was the last opportunity in which Parliament could interfere,
because, although it was perfectly true that it was competent
for the Governor in authority at the colonies to mitigate the
punishment, although competent for the judges in this country
to pass sentence of imprisonment in lieu of transportation,
and therefore so far to effect an alteration in the penal system,
still, it did appear to him that to introduce these great—these
very extensive—these important, and in his opinion most
doubtful measures, there should have been something more than
a mere announcement of the intentions of the Government, there
ought to have been a something more than a trifling discussion
in this or both Houses of Parliament. Such a measure as this
should not be carried without the sanction of an Act of Parlia-
ment defining in the clearest manner who were to be the
subjects affected by the measure, and the extent
of punishment to be affixed to each degree of crime.
He was afraid that too much haste was not only observable on
this but on all former occasions on which this important ques-
tion had been considered, and he could not help entertaining
the greatest doubt of the prudence of abrogating altogether the
punishment of transportation. He believed that it was can-
ceded by almost all who had taken the trouble of considering
this subject, that transportation, as a secondary punishment,
impressed the criminal with more terror than any other mode
or degree of punishment. He believed that many of the most
hardened culprits who would hear w ith perfect indifference a sen-
tence of 13 months' imprisonment, to be afters ards commuted
to labour in public works, would look with very different feel-
ings on a sentence of transportation for a period of 21 or 14, or
even 10 years. He believed that however faulty in
practice the system at present in existence was, it
capable of being worked advantageously for the pur-
poses of reformation as well as of punishment. The
Noble Lord opposite had correctly stated that in this punish-
ment much depended on the charade: of the convict himself, and
much on the temper of the master to whom he might have
been assigned, and while to some this would be hardly any
punishment at alt, to others it would be a severe one. His
( Lord Stanley's) conviction was, that if after a period et!
punishment by labour in the colonies,' here had been the means
of distributing among the scattered population of so large a
continent as that of New South Wales, these labourers—if
facilities betel been given for allotting them to free emigrants—
men possessed of property—if there had been proper facilities
given for distributing the convict population, after
they had undergone the severe ordeal of punishment which
Government had commanded—if such facilities had been
given, he believed that great good might have been accom-
plished, and that many and singular advantages would accrue
to the character, the dispositions, and the welfare of the indi-
viduals who had been subjected to that punishment. He re-
gretted to think, that not only were hasty steps taken by the
Committee which sat in 1527, but that still more hasty steps
were taken in 18.10, when her Alajesty's Government, without
any previous preparation, at once announced that transportation
to New South Wales was immediately to cease. He thought
they had then sacrificed a great advantage when they threw
up as a penal settlement a colony large as the continent of
Europe,—a colony to which they might have transported a
great mass of crime, which it was of the first importance
should be sent from their shores. Even his Noble Friend, in
' the plan which he that evening submitted to their Lordships,
admitted the necessity of removing this mass of evil from
their country. lie ( Lord Stanley) did not mean to deny
that great and serious inconveniences had arisen to the
colony of Van Dieman's Land, from the extent to which
transportation had been carried, in consequence of the declara-
tion of Government that New South Wales should no longer
be a penal settlement, and that Van Dieman's Land
should be the only and single point to which that tide
of vice and depravity should flow in future. But this
inconvenience was immediately aggravated by the unfortu-
nate coinciden cies of the period in which the operation
of the new system was first commenced. At the period when
the new system was first introduced, there was every reason
to believe that as the convicts came out from the first step of
punishment, namely, from the probation gang, they would be
absorbed in the population, and proper and honest labour pro-
cured for them, it was unfortunate that coincident with that
period, trade should be in a most depressed condition, that a
sudden eclipse of that prosperity which had been blown up to
an artificial and premature extent should supervene, and that
those chases who were the employers of labour, were in a con-
dition to do so no longer. Nothing could have happened more
unfortunately for the Government then that the new system
was introduced at this period, yet he (Lord Stanley) was satis-
fied of this, that to a great extent notwithstanding all those
disadvantageous circumstances, the system adopted with trans--
ported convicts had acted beneficially in the case of a great
proportion of those persons who had been subjected to this
punishment. He did not mean for a moment to say, that in
the papers before the House, there were not instances of
horror (which he was glad to find his Nettle Friend had not
disgusted their Lordships with)—but those horrors were in the
probation gangs, confined to two or three localities.
Earl GREY—No, no.

Lord STANLEY—It was so, and he affirmed it after a
careful examination of the papers. These acts of horror were
occasioned by the absence of proper superintendence and
watchfulness, and they might by proper superintendence have
been in every instance checked. All precautions having been
inconceivably neglected, it could net be deemed matter of
astonishment, or even of wonder, that such consequences
should have ensued. But let them look to the especial docu-
ments which treated of the character and conduct and disposi-
tion of the convict population of Van Dieman's Land. He
asked them not to take the authority of the Governor nor of
the comptroller, nor to take the authority of those official
reports which one and all announced a great improvement in
the ,sharacter and conduct of the convict population. But he
would ask their Lordships to look at a letter which would be
found • -in those very papers, and which gave the
impressions of the writer with regard to the
general conduct of the convicts in the year 1845,
and again, in 1846, and Mr. Fry, their Lordships would re-
member, was no advocate for the continuance of transporta-
tion, especially for minor offences. His letter would be found
in pages 190 and 191 of the book before their Lordships, and
the statements contained in it were such as ought not to be
overlooked. The Noble Lord then proceeded to read an ex-
tract from the Rev. Mr. Fry's letter, which had appeared in a
colonial paper, to show the great improvement which had taken
place in the moral character of the convict population. The
writer said that the sea-ports of England presented more im-
moral aspects than the towns of the colonies—that the ministers
of religion who had been provided by the Government in 1842,
laboured in extensive congregations, every Protestant family
having their bibles, and both Protestants and Roman Catholics
delighting in their rAigious eiservances. The tendency of the
whole article was to prove that society in the penal colonies had
greatly improved, and were in course of even greater improve-
ment. Now, this was the article which appeared in one of the
colonial papers, and the same facts were confirmed by another
article, dated in August, 1846, exactly a twelvemonth after the
publication of his first letter. He went on, at a later period,
to state that he had married upwards of a hundred discharged
convicts in the last year, who were living as happy as any la-
bourers in England. The writer also referred to the working of
ci nditional pardons under the old system. With reference to
the intentions of her Maje•ty's Government as regarded
conditional pardons, the Government desired to give the go-
vernor power to grant conditional pardons which should extend
over the whole of the penal colonies, so that an emancipated
convict might have the option of a widely evtended country to
settle in. With regard to the punishment, his Noble Friend
and himself appeared to agree on the principle; in fact, he
thought there was no difference in this respect between them.
His Noble Friend admitted, in his place, that the same prin-
ciple of punishment should be carried out as that which at
present prevailed in the colonies, namely, the inflicting a
severer degree of punishment in the advanced stages, and i 1
every successive stage giving greater or less restraint, until by
perseverance and good conduct the convict should emerge
among the free and uncontaminated population ; therefore, as
far as the principle was concerned, there was no dif•
ference between there, and he believed that there would be
none with any other of their Lordships. The question, then, the
great question for them was, what kind or degree Of punish-
ment would be the best calculated to prevent crime in the first
instance, and restore in the second place the convict to a useful
position in society ? lie was afraid that in the vast scale of
offences which were now punishable with transportation, the
distinction would be neglected which existed between the
highest and lowest grades of punishment. The offender in the
first instance, would think it a matter of no great importance'
whether the minimum sentence of six months, or the maxi-
mum set tence of eighteen months were passed. That differ-
ence would not strike the mind so forcibly as the difference
between six months imprisonment and transportation for life.
to, and
aancdt ualhlyopeconfsotir-.
by ' •
imprisonment for some months to be followed emigration,
punishment would not
most The fear of
ed
e up
rculprit, transportation
andwiaies
dnon.ww%every
thatetr strong, gt
h,
eeven
substitutedw i th the
with their wives and children, the
He admitted without hesitation, that the question of expense
cthareryeionugnoturyt thheis
wpalasns,uirfei two
was in this case a minor and subordinate matter ; and what-
tountley ceasesome
ht
gb e
toa mliottotke r offo r
vr dread,ad
wereuld
not object to a slight additional expenditure of one, two, or
subjected to great difficulty in the first application of their
three hundred thousand pounds. But Government would be
plan. That would necessarily be the effect of abandoning the
g calculated;h
to
oe
diminish the e x expense
cnrsiemoef,
sentence of transportation. He believed the male portion of
the population now sentenced to transportation amounted an.