The Sun.
London, England, 1812-05-05 00:00:00

ROUSE Off COMIIIO.2VS.

, • MONDAY, INIAY 4.
The second reading of the Scotch Distillation Bill
was postponed to 'Friday.
The Sandhurst Lands Bill was read a thifd time,
and passed.
The Report of the Irish Secorities,Bill was taken;
Into farther consideration, and the Bill ordered iq be
.read•a third time on Wednesday.
A message from the Lords announced that their
Lordships' had agreed to`the sold Coin Bill, and se-
veral Pi-ivate Bills.

Mr. DICKENSON brought in a Bill to enable mix
two Magistrates to Repair County Bridges, &c.
without Grand Jury preserthnents.
Read a firs', and oideted to be read a second time
on Friday.
The Scotch Customs Superannuation Bill was
read a third time and passed.,
The Excise Superannuation' Bill went.through a
Cotptnitiee, the I.l,poit of which was 'ordered to be
recrived to-morrow. -

"'The Plate Drawback 8,11 went through a Com-
mittee, the ,Ileport of :which was :received, and
ti►e' Bill ordert.d to be read a third time to-
morrow.

Mr: H. Smrrillirought in a Bill to extent! the.
Provlsions (); :he 36th of the King, And ot.tne Act
Of the pieseui Session, resreding Bank Stock, the
property of Infant Suitors, in Chant'ery, to all trans-
ferable Stock whatever.

Read a first, and ordered to be read a second time
on Thursday.

!`• 11 .1 1' t
1-„he Parkbilrst Forest Mil V 133 react a thiril tirte
and vas.sed.,
.Mr, tnEEVEY Said, that accoi.djo2,. to tie 37th
of thy King, he understood
.the Shrveyot'=Generril
Woods, and Forqsts? -and Crown Landfl; 8'.45 di-
re;:tt-d to make a Report every third par, will:lb
rot-1i ttlys atter the. meeting of Pailiament. This
had. not been dobe according to the,AO: and he
!,,hor;ld, therefore: now move thdt. such. a .Return be
laid -beforeelhe House. ' ,

. .
Mr. WHAaToN objeaed to tlie motion ; such a
having never yet been made out. Being call-'
ed for in the present instance, in the manner pro-
posed, would seem to cast an unmerited censure on
the conduct of the present Surveyor. General, Lord
Glenbervie. ,

Mr. Witfrl3REAn thought this the tnost ,singular
-opposition and defence he had ever heard. It was
strange that the Hon. Gentleman should contend,
becathe the provisions of an Ad of Par-!iament Itever
had been carried into 'effed, jhat they ought not
now to be entiireed.

Mr. WHAP,TviI said he had merely objeCted to
the motion at this time, as it went to cant an un-
called for censure on Lord Glenbervie.

Mr. WtirrnßEAD was glad the Hon. Gentleman
had not meant it for a defence, as no for Mer ne-
gle6l could justify a negle& of duty on the part of
the person ai present 4olding the sitUation held by
the Noble Lord.
. ,
Alter 'a few words from Mr.CLEEvEY, the motion
was agreed to.
Lord COCHRANE moved for a Return of lb?
French Silk, Cambric, ',lee, and :other Manufac-
tures, imported within. the laSt tw6 months ; and
also for, an Account/made up_.to the latest perial of.
the Amount of such Manufaclures entered at the
Custom-House, distinguishing those intended for
exportation.

Mr. Ross moved .as an Amendment, that the
word (‘ silk" should be omitted; as he was '.con-
lident no such mar:Ill-AC:lure had been impoited:,

short ,conversation followed, in which Sir F.
BURDETT, Mr. MEt.a.rsa, PEELIE, and Mr.
BARING, partiC;p3l.td:
Mr. !task withdrew his Amendment, and the
motion Was carried with an addition, suggested by
Sir J. NEWPORT, to distinguish the Manufattures
entered at the "Custom-House for hothe.cotrsump-
lion, from those intended for exportation.

Mr, WARD gave notice, that on' Friday he would
move an Address to the Prince Regent, praying his
Royal .Highness .to cause certain AccountS relating
to the Expenditure of the Barrack Department, to
be laid b4ore the [louse.

Two Petitiovo were presented against the East
India Moilopoly,

Ordered 1.0 lie on the table.

Mr. BitOuouAm presented a Petition from .the
Manufacturers of Chorley; against Sinecure_Places,
&c,—Qrdered to lie on the table.

01) the motion of Mr. 13E±NNET, a Return of the
Number of Persons enip!oAd" in -the Departments
of the Commissary General Departmt:nt in Pia-
togal. w 4,1 ordered to be Did befote the House. •

Lord COCHRANE moved for an Recount of the
A Inoutlt ofali Seizures of French Silk, and other
M•:inla9nres, made within the last .two months. .

Ordered.

On the (notion of Mr. BARING, Returns of the
rr:ial Amount of Money raised for the_Public Service
in the o.,ited Kingdom in each year, from 1801 to
1811, inclusive, distinguishing the sums raised, by
Taxes from those raised by increasing the, Na-
tional Debt, were ordered to be laid before the
House.

The House then resolved itself into the Commit-
tee on the Orders it Council.

A Mr. Messenger was examined. From his ex-
amination, it did not appear that he clearly- under-
stood the natu'e of the Orders in Council.
He was direEted to withdraw;

• Some discussion arose as to the propriety.of exa-
mining the witness fatther, Mr. C. Adams, Mr.
Rose, Mr. Brougham, and Mr. Whitbread,-otfered
a few observations 'ou the subjea. He .was. at
length called in again on the motion of Mr. Mar-,
'ryas, who desired nothing better than that the”ie
Who were against the Orders in Council; should have
such witnesses to support their aignments.
'Mr, John Brown, Mr. William Pidgeon, ,and
Mr. Joseph Webster were then severally examined.
These witnesses were all from the town of Bir-
tnisham. In the course of the examination of
Mt. Pidgeon; that Gentleman produced a lettcr,
signed by the clerk of a respedable manufaelurer and
merchant of that town, stating the decay of trade,
and the consequent increase of his stock. Some
discussion arose as to the Arnission of that .sot t of
evidence; it being contended, that the best testi-
mony Ought to, be adduced, namely, • that of the
manufacturer himself. The letter Was of course re-
jeCted.
'The House then resumed, upon which the Chair.%
man reported progress, and obtained leave to sit

again.
After a few words. from Mr. Broughim, respetl:
log Mr. 13rAid's intended .motion for Parliamentary
Reform, wuich stood for to-morrow, we understood
that Mr. Brand postponed his motion.

SINECURE PLACES.

Mr. BANKS Waving moved the further considera-
tion of tie Sinecure Place

Me. WM. DUN DAS spoke at' some length against
the measure, plincipally.wilfi 'a view to its o;iera--
Lion on certain 9frites in Scotland, which he-de-
scribed as remnants of the ancient Scottish Mo-
narc.hy, endeared io the feelings of the people, and
secured to them by the at tides of union. He pro.
tested against the present attempt as, a departure
from the pledge given ;o Scotland, and an infringe-
ment of the character, the-faith, and the honour
of the, English nation, -if it should pass into a
law.

The LORD ADOCATE of SCOTLAND expressed his
conviction, that neither the Right ,Hon. .Gentleman;
who had introduced the question, nor the House,
were aware of the mischief which was likely to
result from it. It was, in fact, an infringement- of
the Articles of Union with Scotland ; but,, beSides
thiS, the effect it must prodtice upon the landed
rights of that country, by interfering with the office
o) Pt-ivy Seal, was'serious to a great .degree. rite
Bill would go to remove at once the great responsi-
ble officers, and substitute persons of an infetior de-
scription, whose resp6nsibdity was not so great 3
the pjesent deputies would become the principles;
and, call them by what name they pleased, titer
could not afford the same security to the landed

•I • .
proptietorS. neat obje6lecl to the consolidation
of the dices of Keeper of the Great Seal, and Lord
Jus•ice General, as a thing ahsird in itself; the two
departMents requiring to be execinrd at the same
time and in, different places. Animadverting upon
another provision of the Bill, he stated, that if the
taxes of Excise' and Custotnp were .0' be collected
by poisons of inferior • respectability in ScotlinJ 10
those who now colleeled them, the same regtilation
should ,be extended to England ; the principl,. of
Saving hundreds at the risk of thousands was equally
applicable to all parts of the'Kingdom, if it eprld be
recognized in any. Uilon the whole, he shOuld•give
his decided negative to the Bill in every stage of its
progress.
Mr. LITTLETON, after• some general ohserva-
tions in vindication' of the' Scotch nition from the
°
charre of 'being moreanxions, to profit '.)y abuse; Of,
this kind than any tither,-entered into a defence of
the Bill. He attributed the de6,he of the jest aLI•
IhntitY and estimation of the aristocracy to the exist-
ence of such offices as this Bill was intended to
abolish. jo alludinci to the office of Private, Secre-
tary to the Prince R°egent,_lie Offered it as his opi-
nion, that if it should exist at all, it ought to have
'been given. to a person of higher rank than the in-
dividual who at present held it. If-ever 1,! ere was •
a. time when -it
..,was important. to refuse such- a
power to the Clown, it was under the presetit
tem,ixhen every one heard and knew that the Prince
was surrounded by favourites and minions. ,:tie
concluded with observing, that he would rat he,r be-
stow hundreds and thousands upon a Nelson or a
Wellington than one farthing on the gamesteror a
spendthrift.
Mr: COURTENAY entered into a long train of ar-
guments., to spew ,that the measttarc, though pie-
tended to be economical, Was in reality piolnk_e,
and that the reducttOn of sinecures would be so
far counterbalanced by the pensions 'created' iii
their room, as to make the Bill as an expensive
measure. . _

Lord A. HAmturotst supported
.the Bill. It was
futile to appoint Committees for the investigation of
the public expenditure if the House refused to act
on the reports of these Committees. At a period
when the expenditure of .the, country amounted to
no less a suaythan 100 millions annually, the House
would lose its charader with the public-if it evinced
any indtsposition to countenance retrenchment.—
Parts of the Bill might be objeiitionablei but it was
not too late to correct them. .

Mr. *BASTARD
.trusted that the vote of-that night
would not. disappoint the expeciations which the
country had been led to entertain. 7 Ler the House
consider the state of the country; and the burdens
to which the poor were exposed. Was the persant
to see the lost torn from_ the mouth of his starving
children, in order to pamper the luxury of the use-
less great ? The time was come for vigorous exer-
tion.: Ruin every where stared, us in the face, and
we ()tight byeverypossibre economy, to break the
violence of the coming storm. Although he thought-
that it would have been a better coutse had a sepa-
rate vote been first taken on, every-place named in
the Bin, and had that place then been introduced
into the Bill I yet-if Pavliament,' by not agreeing,
to the Bilt, even ,as it stood, shewed,that they
were- more. alive to .their own ioteresis; than to
those' of the people, at large ; it would be difficult
to predict the consequences.
Mr. N. VAY,SITLART opposed the Bill, every-
branch crf which. he
.contended would be inef,.
ficacious. _

The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER decl,tred
that his objection to the-M.l was a.g:3inst• the sweep-
ing psinciple.v,which it contained.. Having'g yen to
his Hououmle Friend an opportunity of perfeciios
it in the Committee, he no Walser telt any hesita-
tion in declaring his decided opinion on 'the subject.
le first stated his -objections to the details of the
Bill•; and dwelt on the inconveniences which would
result from the consolidation of Offices, instancing
in particular those ofoLord JUstice GeOeral, andthe
Great Seal in Scotland_ and in this country, the
Auditor of the Exchequer, with the President of .
the Council. In both these cases, the duties of the
Great Seal in the one, and of the. Auditor of the
Exchequer in the other, were io be petforrued by
the present deputies, the salaries were to be abo-
Itsbeel •
; and then came the 'monstrous proposition,
that by transfers lug the
.names of, those officers to .
other high offices in the Siete,- these high offic,:rs
were to be rendered responsible. for the discharge of
choirs, over which they had no controul. He corn. ,
naeoited also on the consolidation of the offices of - .
Clerk or the Pells, arid Kepers of the Privy
,Seal,
the former of
_which was sonietiares' a check oil the
latter. .oihe? offices it was proposed by the. bill
to abolish, which were heritable property. But
that which Militated most strongly against :one of
the principles on, which :his ',Honourable Friend
professed - to procced, namely, that . vested in-
terests ought not to be toadied, was the, pta.vosed
arrangement in the Court of King's Bench and in
the'Court of Common—Pleas. If that . arrangement
were agreed to by the LegiOature, it . would be • as
direct a robbery. of the Chief Jus!ices of those Courts
as could' possibly be conceived. So Much for the
detail, in point of 'principle, he thought leis Hort. -
Friend was complelcly mistaken in stating that the
Crown oug,it constitutionally to have no,power to
secure to its service, biy.the grant of certain offices,
persons who might be useful
•to the • State. If was .
childish to say, that the interests or the Crown would , •
be equally pro eaed by loavtog is in this power of
the Crown to confer pensions on such individuals at
the expiratien of five years: In many instances,
such an alteration would dept ivy the Crown, or, in •
..Zither words, the country, of most valuable. ,ser% ices.
of his OVVH•case he would not speak. . The country
would have susiarh-d lo':s had he'bee.n
.prevented
frony-dw,pting himself, to its service.
_Bat there
'might be cases in which the Crown, surrounded by-
an overweening aristocracy, cot Wined to prevept i‘t ,
from chusing its own Fielvants, might bedesirous of
availing itself of the industry, talents, and public vir-
tue-of individuals, who could not answer it to
the t -
selves wholly to ab,1,06, the interests of thr:ir fami-
lies for the service of the public. Lot the House
look at the number of offices to which the Bill ap-
plied, and then sty whether its passing might not
materially affeet the interest of the Crown. He
knew that the Gentlemen -opposite fancied the in-
flot-nce of the Crown to be enormoesly too great, ,
but be called on the House to consider whether that
was the ta.at ; whether the influence of the, Crown
was greater than what- was necessary to ma;ntana it
;gaiti;t the weight which increasing weAlth and

knowledge give to.the other orders of the Sate
Ai a Drool that the infloence of tire Crown is not so
predomioaiing as it' had been tepTesentell 'to be, he
rt,Firre'' to the late vote respecting_ colonel M‘Ma- .
hon's office. Would any into say calmly—would
any man indeed, who.diil not wish by his declama-
tion to make a noise in the newspapers,say, that the
case of Colonel M‘Malion was one of an extreme
nature ? And yet the result of that affair sheaved
t hat there was no such predominating -influence in
the Crown as to render the reduction of offices ne7
cessary to the s:ifety of the country. Whether or
not that influence couldibe diminished Would be. felt ,
to be a" most grave consideration, by those. who
Is jibed to see the various branches of the Constitu-
Coo preserved in their resnedive relations. In his
opinion, it was most untrue to say that the influence,
of the Crown had increased ; and feeling, that the
monarchical part of the. Constitution was hazarded
by the present Bill, he had no hesitation in oppos-.

it.

Mr. BA :SIKES defended the Bill at
,considerable
length. He expressed his regret, that his Right
HUI-I.' Friend had not adopted the Parliamentary
course of confining the present objeaions to the di
retil prio-ciple of the measure instead of that, he
had applied himself to points which ought to have
been .argucd in the Committee. He was thus
hampered with a doubleditficulty. The Right Hon.
Gentleman talked of the nutyser of places that
were to be abolished by the 841. The number was
not great. The abolition proposed was of large sa-
laries -which were attached ro inefficient offices.
The difference' did not seem to be comprehended
lo(Aween an office and the salary of an office. When
he, introduced the Bill, he said that it was by no
meaes,perfed, but that he trusted it would come
out of the Committee with its faults eurreeted. If
the F-lon. Gentlemen thought the provisiOns of the
Bill so objectionable, why had they not attended
, the Committee for the. purpose of modifying those
provisions ? The Hon. Gentleman here entered ilito
. a detailed reply to the arguments which 'had been
ut ged against the provisions, He regretted that the
Lord Advocate bad not attended the Committee,
butt he confessed, that after having had the advan-
tage of hearing the speech of his Right Hon. Friend
that night he did. not think that the Bill tended at all
to infringe the attieles'of the Union with Scotland.
Of many of the offices-to which the Bill applied,
the silaries wele not vety,considiable'in themselves,
but were enormous when compared with the duties
to be performed by those who enjoyedthem. Ad-
ver.ing to What his Right Hon. Friend had said of
the proposed arrangements in' the Courta of King's
Bench and Common Pleas, he contended that it was
oast disgraceful that thOse high officers, the Judges
of those Courts, should receive the remuneration for
• their )aboUrs through the channels by which-it now
reached therre—l'hey Ought to be. paid in a more
honourable and diredt manner. As to what Were
termed priva..,e rights, he had known many cases,
doing his Ralifimentary•experiente, in
.which the
coesideration of those rights 'half been carried to a
mos! extravagant eivent. Convinc:_d tb it the prin.:
ciPle of the _MI was sound, he was not tifraid of the
• decision. he proceeded at some length to expa•
tiate, on the, nature and tendency of the provisions
of the Bill.--Ii did not go to deceive the Crown of
the power of rewarding merit, but it went to prevent .
the public.: money from being lavished on useless
sinecure.
• Mr. COURTENAY explained. •
Mr. CA'NINING the nht the influence of the Crown
bad not increased-, s compare2l with the• increased
power of the.mtion, any mere than was necessary
to preserve, i:s proper weight a,,d irripottance in the
constitution. He would not therefore argue the
present queStron as a question of diminution, but
as a questiOn of commutation of the power of the
Crown. Feeling, however, that the mode of re-
'warding public servants, by giving sinecures, had
become odious to the public,
,he should vote in fa-
vOur of the B 11. He hoped, however; the Ho-
nourable Gentleman would have. no objection _to
make its operations on Colonial Offices prospeeive,
instead ,of retrospective, and he intended, when
the proper time came, to move an 'amendment to
th:ir •

Lord CASTLEREAGH opposed the Bill, ns it went
to deprive the Crown ot the power of immediately
securing to an indiviinal of talent that con-
sistently with his duty- to his family, he might re-
quire to be secured to hitt) before he could dedicate
his time to the public service. It went to deprive
the Crown 'of this power, and:only left it the means
of ihtimating to such a person, that if in the con-
of p verty, he should continue to serve the
Crown for fire years, at the end of that time, 'he
might be rewarded with a pension. He could not
think the measure had been corre.elly described,
when it had been represented as inerely leading to
a commutation of the power of the Crown. He
thought ;it went to etie& a great redoatiOn in its
power, and to make a retrenchment of is preroga-
tive, inconsistent with the principles of the English
Noriarchy.

The House then divided—
. for die Motion -
Against it - .
Majority -

134
- 123

Strangers were not re-admitted. We understand
some uiscusSion took place on several of' the
Clause;.
Adjourned at half-past tliree o'cock.

On Fri Say evening last, .about half past six
o'clock; a shock of an earthquake was distinCily
felt in Swansea', and for several tulles round. It
createl some alarm, but we have nut heard of any
miscl►iet.

There is within two miles of this town, wyoung
woman, who has lived during the last three years,
wiihout trieat; bread, or any salid article of food.
She subsists entirely on a little wine and milk. It
is remarkable, that. to throws up every day a large
quantity r‘f blood. She is tinably to move, hating
101 l every particle of flesh ; but she appears nearly
in be same state she was three years ago,—Reading
.Zllt ry.
Ililliam Wyatt, con‘ieted at the la!e Launces-
ton Assize., of the murder of Val,,nliae, the Jew,
was executed at Bodlnin on Friday morning, at_ ten
echok. The roads aoout Bodmin were crowded by
eight o'clock.