The Sun.
London, England, 1840-02-07 00:00:00

STATE OF THE NAVY.

Lord COLCHESTER rose to bring the attention
of the House to a subject upon which he had occupied
them in the course of the last Session.—(Hear,
hear.) He had then endeavoured to bring
the attention of the House and the country to the
undefended state of our own shores, and he now
intended to move for the return of papers which would
show that little change had since taken place. He
might lay himself open to the imputation which had
fallen upon others, that he made his motion from party
motives, or that, for the sake of attacking Ministers,
he was exhibiting a weakness that did not exist, or one
which, if it existed, he ought not to expose to foreign
powers. To the first objection, which was only per-
sonal, it would not become him, or the subject which he
had undertaken, to make any reply. To the second he
could only answer, that foreign powers were already too
well aware of that weakness which we took too much
care to conceal from ourselves.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
The first return for which he would move was. a re-
turn of the number of seamen and marines
voted for in the Session of 1839. He knew
that 35,000 was as great number of men as had
been voted since the peace, but that was no suffi-
cient answer, for the number of men required for our
marine depended upon the nature of our relations with
foreign powers, and their state of preparation. The
second return he would move for would be the distribu-
tion of those seamen among the different stations abroad ;
and the third return would be a return of our forces upon
the home station, showing the number of officers,
seamen, and marines at home, describing the
number actually afloat, and those on shore,
on the Ist of. December. That appeared to him to be
a question of the very greatest importance. Our home
force consisted at present of only three guard ships of
120 guns, but they were manned by only one-third of
their full complement of officers, seamen, and marines ;
and, therefore, were not able to render any efficient
service against an enemy who might penetrate to our
shores. There was one frigate of 36 guns, and some
smaller vessels as schooners and cutters, and that
was the whole force upon Which 'the safety of our shores
depended, unless it were those ships which were being
put into commission for the purpose of going to a fo-
reign station, or those who had come home to be paid
off, having completed their period of service. In judging
of what would be a sufficient force for this nation, it was
necessary to look at what force other nations were able
to send out. Russia and France were the two great
nations with which we had to compare ourselves. Rus-
sia had last year had in commission in the Baltic 28
line-of-battle ships, 18 frigates, and in the Black Sea
13 line-of-battle ships, wit a proportionate number of
smaller vessels at both places. In the present year that
force had been much increased, as he had been in-
formed from authority upon which he could rely, and
that power had now no less than 30 ships of the
line in the Baltic. When this subject was mentioned
tioned last year, it was stated that these ships were
old, and defective, and that their crews only went on
board for practice for a few weeks in the summer.
He was mistaken if the Noble Earl opposite was not
convinced that the case was quite otherwise ; he be.
lieved that officers enjoying the confidence of the Go-
vernment had seen these ships, and reported that

that they were not pasteboard ships, but were new ships
and well manned, and altogether completed in an excellent
manner. Russia then had no less than 40 ships of the

line—nearly 30 frigates, while our home force con-
sisted of three one-third manned guard ships. Then
with respect to France, it appeared from the official
budget laid before the King of the French, that there
had been voted folthe service of the year 1840, 34,000
men, being within 1,000 of the number of seamen voted
for the service of this country, although we had colo-
nies scattered throughout the world, and had a most
extensive commerce to protect, while the colonies of
France were few, and near the mother country.
Twenty-three thousand of the men voted were divided
among eight sail of the line, two ships answering to our
guard ships. 20 frigates, and 20 steamers ; and by the
same returns it appeared they had a reserve of
nearly ten thousand men, consisting of seamen,
marines, and marine artillery.--( Hear, hear.)
The ships of France were of a more powerful descrip-
tion than those of England. Of the 40 sail of the line
of France, one half was kept ready for the peace service,
while the other half were placed on slips, so that they
would be ready at a minutes' notice, for the French
ships were not laid up in ordinary. England would not.
bear a comparison with France in defence of her shores
or in finding reinforcements to send to distant shores in
cases of emergency. The Noble Earl last year stated
that he preferred seeing ships in the Mediterranean, or
at Lisbon, to lying idle in the ports of England, and
that ships at Lisbon were equally ready for service as
those in England. With respect to that he begged to
draw their Lordships' attention to a circumstance that

happened two years ago. It would be in the recollec-
tion of Noble Lords that in the month of Pecember,
1837, news arrived of the insurrection in Canada, and
it was of importance that ships should be sent out im-
mediately. Unless he was misinformed there was only
one disposable ship in the English ports at that time,
viz., the Inconstant. In order to send out troops
it was necessary to call ships from different places.
A ship was called from the coast of Spain—she came
home and embarked troops in a fortnight. The Her-

cules was called from Lisbon, but was not ready to send
out till the 23d Feb. Had she been in England, and a
disposable ship, she would have sailed in January, and
he considered there had consequently bten' a tosi of six
weeks. He therefore could not., think that ships lying
at Lisbon could be considered so available as if they
were in England. Having this insufficient number of
ships at home, he wished to call the attention of their
Lordships to the great increase which had taken place
in the navies of foreign countries. The Russians kept
up a navy manned with disciplined seamen all the year
round. Franco had all her seamen registered, and
therefore she was ready at any time to man her fleet
with secrecy and with dispatch, and she had been in-
creasing her navy for years past. It did not there, as it
did in this country, take six weeks or two months to
man a ship. In one instance a ship had been put in
commission the 9th of May, and after
going round
to almost all the principal ports in the United
Kingdom she had been unable to complete her compli-
ment of men until December. And this did not ap-
ply to seamen only, but there was a great difficulty in
finding officers.
On account of the slowness of promo-
tion officers were unwilling to serve. There was a

Commission now sitting to inquire into this subject,
anal therefore he would now only allude to one very
deserving class of officers—he meant masters' mates.
These were gentlemen, who. having served their time
as midshipmen, had passed for lieutenants, but had
not been appointed. These gentlemen had no esta-
blished rank, and no comparative rank with the army,
and were not entitled either to pensions or half-pay.
This was not a very agreeable situation for young men,
and accordingly they found that many of them had left
the service. Many of them, young men, had been up-
wards of twelve years in the service. From a return
laid on the table of the House of Commons, last year,
he found that there were 210 mates who had passed
their examination eight years, and consequently must
have been eleven years in the service. Of this number
seven had bean in the service eighteen years ; fifteen for
seventeen years, and twenty-five for fourteen years. He
hoped that this valuable class of officers would receive
the most favourable consideration of the Noble Earl.
He wished also to draw theirLordships' attention to the
propriety of continuing pensions, granted to men for
length of service, to them while they were employed ;
at present they were not entitled to them when they were
employed, and the consequence was they left the service
and went into the merchant service, or even into foreign
service ; and thus their example was lost to the service,
and great difficulty would be found in getting them back
again, if their services should be required. There was
another regulation which was not now continued in
force. Whenever a ship had been paid off, her officers
were passed to flag-ships, and there her most valuable
class of men were retained in the service. So much
for the manning of ships. Another evil arose from the
smallness of the squadron on the home station. Of late
years the squadron had been assembled for general use.
This was a point of the highest importance ; for how-
ever well manned and trained individual ships might be,
if they were not accustomed to exercise together, they
were not able to perform their evolutions in the manner
necessary in engagements. He believed since 1831
there had not been a squadron assembled, and conse-
quently the greater part of young officers had hardly
ever seen a ship perform her evolutions. It had also
been stated, that though there were no ships
on the home station, still, now steam had be-
come so great a moving power upon the sea,
it would be very easy to procure sufficient of them
for the defence of the coast, from the great number
there were of merchant steam vessels. But though it
were true there were a great number of these, it would
be found they were not of a description for warlike
purposes, though some no doubt might be so used.
From a valuable report on steam-boat accidents, he
begged leave to read two opinions on the capability of
steam vessels. Speaking of the quality of the present
steamers, Messrs. Curling and Young observed, " In
some vessels materials of a very inferior description
and perishable quality were employed, in others the
connection between the parts were defective, the fasten-
ing were inefficient, and the workmanship bad."
Again, they observe that, " Shipowners only look to the
splendour of the saloon, while the safety of the passengers
was lost sight of ;" therefore vessels such as this, which
would hardly bear the weight of their own engines,would
be quite unable to bear the weight of heavy guns.
He should move for a return of the number of ships
launched and laid down since the year 1835. If he
was not mistaken, those returns would show that the
naval force upon our shores was altogether insufficient
for their protection, and that there were by no means
adequate provisions to maintain the naval interests of
the country in foreign quarters. If any war broke out
our marine was in such a neglected state, that not only
would we lose our sovereignty on the seas, but we
would become amongst the weakest of naval powers.—
(Hear, hear.)
Lo'rd MINTO said, that a great part of what had
fallen from the Noble Lord might have better been re-
served until the papers were returned. He entirely
acquitted the Noble Lord from any factious mo-
tives in the anxiety which he had very natu-
rally shown as to the condition of the navy. At the
same time he could not help observing, that during the
whole period that the navy had been reduced to the
lowest ebb—when the pressure of economy weighed so
strongly upon the Government as to induce them to
withhold those supplies upon which the existence of the
navy depended—(Cheers)—when those extremely po-
pular reforms were made by which' the efficiency of our
marine was unquestionably impaired—not one word
was heard from the Noble Lord, or from other Noble
Lords—(Cheers)—in reprobation of that unwise sys-
tem.—(Cheers.) It was only since a new system had
been adopted—it was only since the Government had
adopted measures for rendering the navy more efficient
—it was only since double the number of ships had been
laid down that had ever been upon the stocks since
the peace —it was only since those changes bad
taken place that Noble Lords came down to the House
with complaints as to the neglected state of the Navy.
The Noble Lord had gone into many observations and
details, into which he did not find it necessary to follow
him. The Noble Lord had sketched out a discussion
en the entire state of the navy, for which he (the Earl
of Minto) had not been prepared, even though it were
advisable to detain their Lordships long upon the sub-
ject. There were, however, one or two points in the
speech of the Noble Earl, on which it was necessary
for him to say a few words. The main ground of com-
plaint with regard to the present condition of our navy,
and the only one which appeared to be of much weight,
was that our fleet was not at present sufficiently strong.
Now, he should say that the question was not whether
we had more or less ships now than at other times, but
whether we had enough for the exigencies of the coun-
try.—(Hear, hear.) He should say that we had
enough. It was true that we had not a fleet sufficiently
numerous or strong to cope with the whole fleet of
Russia, if that fleet were put in condition against us—
we had not a fleet to meet twenty-seven or twenty-eight
sail of the line in the Baltic, and about a dozen in
the Black Sea. But he never met 'a Noble Lord
who would say that, in a time of profound peace,
—at a time when there was not only no probability
that we should be exposed to an attack from Russia,
but when there was a moral certainty that we were in
no such danger—he never met a Noble Lord who at
such a time could say that our fleet should be pre-
pared for imaginary perils. It was said that the
French fleet was now very large—he would not deny
that the French were preparing, and had actually a very
considerable naval force. Was there anything, how-
ever, that would justify us, at a time when we were
acting in harmony and concert with the French Go-
vernment, to say that we were exposed to any danger
either from that power or from Russia, because we
had not a large fleet of line-of-battle ships lying at the
Downs or at Spithead ? If they were to be obliged to
be prepared for those supposed dangers, no national re-
sources could maintain the extensive establishment
which would be required ; and if we were to have, in
time of peace, as large a naval force as in time of war,
_ _

it would be better to commence hostilities with other
powers at once, and have a chance of destroying their
force. We had now three ships of the line in foreign
parts. Circumstances had rendered it necessary
of late to send out a considerable force to the
Mediterranean. Our naval force there had been in-
creased from eight to ten, and afterwards from ten to
twelve, sail of the line. That left a large disposable
force in our ports, which would be ready for any em-
ployment which might be found necessary. There were
now, he thought, four sail of the line at home, and two
on their return from the Mediterranean, where there
were, nevertheless, twelve still remaining. He should
observe, however, that the number of ships varied
from month to month, and from week to week. At
some periods there might be only three or four ships in
the home ports, while others were employed in going
out to the Mediterranean to relieve those already
there. He should again repeat, that there was nothing
in the state of the country at home, nothing in our
prospects or relations with other countries, that could
render it desirable that we should have a larger home

force than we were at present maintaining. It might
be said, that if we had a large force at home, England
might more easily send a large force to the colonies. He
would ask,however, if any demand had been made on them
which they were not ready to answer ? Satisfaction
and surprise had already been expressed at their readi-
ness in sending out vessels, and, in the course of a few
months six line of battle ships were to be seen on the
coast of America. The English Government had at
this moment 22 sail of the line in commission. It had
twelve in the Mediterranean, it had four in other
quarters ; and there were therefore six sail ready for
any service that might be thought necessary. He should
say in addition, that if any circumstances did arise
which might render the equipment of a larger force
necessary, he would not shrink from coming down to
Parliament and asking for larger means. As far as
the condition of the ships was concerned, there was no-
thing to be desired. We could at this moment have
forty sail of the line ready at a very short notice. A
comparison had been unjustly made as to the weakness,
of ear ships compared to those of France and other
countries. As .regarded a portion of our fleet, that
was perfectly true. Ours was an old fleet,
and our vessels could 'not all .bie in the same
condition as those of other powers. The English Go-
vernment had not many large ships, but the ships they
had employed were those which they thought fit for the
service in which they were engaged. Ministers were
told to look at the large vessels of France, and to see
our inferiority to them. It was true that the vessels
we had in the Mediterranean were not large ones; but
they were sufficient for the particular purpose for which
they were destined ; they had been sent out for the
purpose of co-operating with the fleet of France, and if
it had been necessary they could have sent out instead
of them three-deckers, with a full complement of men.
The Noble Lord spoke of the delay which had occurred
in sending out ships to China, and said there the Go-
vernment had been obliged to send to America for a
frigate,
to send to
tbeAndromedallotheyhad not been
obliged America—furthermore, the Andro-
meda was not going to China—he had no hesitation at
all in saying that they had plenty of disposable ships,
and had it been at all necessary to send them
sooner it would have been done. Then, with regard
to manning the ships, he believed it would be found
that the complement of men now serving was mush