The Sun.
London, England, 1812-05-06 00:00:00

tO put a ,Ctititpit'aey to ioniinit an offence, anti
the actual commissiOn.efolirn offence; on the same
. foUting.- Certainty the.,objett of the Bill was
tO Make the conspiracy per se a capital offence.
'ticked, he_ eould,not conceive a more hernoes of-
fence than that of whith.a combination of persons,
multiplying by violence
.and seduction, the instru-
ments of theii• crimeseby .c al-Tell:rig them, under
theterror4 of an oath, to take away the lives and ,
property of their felloWEsiabjetts,..were guilty. The
Honourable and Learned Gentleloan who had last
..spokeo, said, that this was one of the instances of
the alacrity. with which unwise Goiernments re-
sorted to new penal-enactments, for seem ii y against_.
a temporary evil. In, answer to this he would ob.
serve, that the conduct of the Honoorable and,
Learned Gentleman on the present occasion was ,
one inatance of the, readiness of_ the Gentlemen
in Opposition, to ()hied at any time, to'any mea7
sure which his Majesty's_ Goverpment thought. it
necessary, for the salvationeof the Empire,
,to
bring , under the
_consideration ,of. Parliament.—
When the Hon. and Learned Gentleman said that a
greit part of the existing distresses were, ascribable
to circumstances which no Government:could con-
troole he spoke truly and .wisely; but when, he,
went further, and declared that Government were
.ihe instrumental causes of, the other part of those.
distresses,: the Hoeouretale and Learned Gentleman
stated that w hkh was unfounded, and which, al,
thnogh_ he (Mr. P.) hoped, tru-teci,, and believed,
the Honourable :and Learned
,Gentleman, , did not
intend should be so, knight prove extraordinarily mis-
chievous. , It ixas well known that in many of the .
agitated distrias, the Most aelive promoters of the
disturbances were ,nut those..who were distressed for
want of employment. They merely availed t hetraselt es
of the distresses of others, to work upon, them for
their. Own, perposes, and ;the instruments of their
designs were operated upon less_ by their own feel-
ings of sutterieg, •thane by what. they heard atid
read to be the opinions of others. He gaVe the Ho-
nourable and'Learoed Gentleman .full credit for act-
ing from conscientious- motives ; but he put . it to.
him whether such observations. as he had made might.
not be produCtive of great evils ? In. one part .of
Honourable and Learned Gentleman's-speech, as if
he had not heard the remarks with which his Right
Kanortrable. Friend. prefaced his motion., he con-
tended, that those who took the oath would, if tile
proposed Bill were passed into a law, hate as good
a chance by proceeding to the commission of crimes,
as \ by abstaining from them. This: was a com-
plete, misrepresentation. The Bill was to have no
retrospective operation, and it was to eontain a
clause,
,enabling persons. who bad taken the oath,
and who voluntarily came before a' magistrate to;
confess that fact, and to take the oath of allegiance,
to avail themselves of offered indemnity. Tlie tact
was, that most of those who entered info this ille-
gal combination, were either compelled or seduced to
do so. The proposed bill would-give tq such un-
wary individuals the means of retreat before the.
actual- commission of crime. Mercy would thus
be blended with severity, and by the judicious
union of these two, great qualities, the existing
.evils might probably . be removed, The Hon.
a:A Leartied Gentleman who= followed his Right
Hon. Friend declared, and quoted authority for his
declaration--that . no law against political oaths
could ever be efficacious. Did he Honourable and
I...ea!ned Gentleman recollect the law against the se-
duCtion of-sold:eis- from their duty by the a:kni-
nlstrati h of unla,,ful oaths,' rendering such admi-
nistration capital -?-- The ottence at that period exist•
ed to an alarming degree. Two days atter the pass-
ing of the Act an Offender was apprehended. He was
tried and conyid.:cl ;.and although from 'he circuit'.
s;anceof the law having peen so recently passed that
it could scarcely be presumed to beg nerally known,
it was not thought, advisatale_tca carry the sentence
into execution, tlre notoriety of the transaction
caused the immediate cessation of the offence. Here
was an indisputable pet of of the advantagecies effect
of the law, which the Hon. ,nd Learned Gentleman
chrratterised as tnetiicacious. Satisfied as .he was
that the pio, osed Bill would be attended with ad-
vantages equal!y salutary, he was persuaded that the
House would eot hesitate to accede to the motion
of his-Right Hon. Friend.
Mr;Bitouallam ob,erved, that the Right Hon.
Gentleman had introduced into bis speech topics..of
a anature wholly extraneous. He had-declared that -
these who were in political opposition to the Go- :1
vernment, availed themselves of every opportunity
to object-to measures which were brought for Ward
,for the .good of the country. .The answer to this
was, that,they ohjededto those Measures, not be-
cause they conceived thein to be for titre good of the •
country, but because they Conceived them to tend
to the detrimeet of the country:
.. His Hon. Friends
had been accused of opposing measures which went
to check assassination.
,COuld any reasonable man
believe such an accusation just? He, repeated the
argument of his Hon. and Learned Friepclohat the
existing law was adequate to the necessity, and. de-
nied that the instance.of tampering with soldiers was
at all analogous to the present. -. Nothing could be-
more injudicious than needlessly to increase' the
.number of. capital offences. When . atrocious niur-
dors were daily committing in the metropolis,.the
Right, Hon. 'Gentleman contented himself with
moving au inquiry into the state of the Nightly
Watch ; now that an,absurd oath had been found,
on an individual,. lie proposed the violent measure
uudei consideiation ; a Measure which would not
meet theeVil, even if the existing law were insuffi-
cient for that purpose.
..AlreSTeeneta : was surprised, at the ,opposition
which the Bill proposed by his• Right Hon. Frieincl,
experienced, because he. recollected that when his
Right Hon. Friend intimated, som•-.: time ago, that
-.-such. a, -proposition ruight create debate, a Right
Honourable Gentleman .on the other side of the
House, (we believe ,Mr.. Ponsonby) said that he
couldnot conjecture that such could be the case He
certainly should himself have thought it highly init.
probable that, then-lotion of his Hon. Friend would
meet with opoesition. Why? Because it was a sub•
je6 tvvsliich.did not;demand consideration ? Certainly.
not ; but because, as the candour and indulgence of
the House almost uniformly induced them to agree
to a Inteion for, leate to. bring in a Bill, the principle
of which did not appeal- to be wholly unprecedented,
he did not ekee& that that candour and indulgence
1
would be withheld in a case. in- which the tranquility
and 'evert the existence of the country was at stake.
It was still qxtraurdinaiy, and was. indeed a ciNuoa-

stance for which, with al his eiperience.of Parlia_
,menta'ry usage, acid the opeiation or the spirit of
party, he was qoite unprepared, that on a motion
for introducing soth a.Bill as that. now proposed, ap
Hon. and
.Learned Gendern-tri; for,' whose character
he entertoined the highest reSpea,, should deliver
such sentiments as--

.Mr. HortNErt spoke to order. The Hon. Gentle-
man had no right to impute to-him conduct prompt-
cd by the spirit of party.
Mr. ST&PHEN denied that he meant any such
imputation. What he bad been going:tO say was,
that, with hiS opinion of the Hon.'andtearned
Gentle Man, he was strrpriSed that on such a motion
as the present, he had thought proper to offer to the
House such 'sentiments as those whiCh he had ut-
tered. He felt this ,to be the more 'extraordinary,
.from the Unfeigned respea which he entertained for
the. quarter whence those sentiments proceeded. BY
what was the present discussion to te succeeded ?
B.)r‘ an inquiry whether the Oiders in Council were
the .causes of the existing distresses ? The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman, however,- anticipated the
`result of that inqniry, and boldly" pronounced that
they were so. He had introduced topics in his
speech, certainly not with any such intention, but-
which were calculated to impress.on the minds of-
thp misguided rioters , that there was something in
the condua of Government which extenuated the'
enormity of their offence; and adlirdedito them this
salvo to their conscience, that these- crimes were
not so great because they were oppressed by
that Goverment. Nothing could be conceived
of 'a more.dangerous tendency than such observa- •
tions—nothing that tendkl mote to counteract 11,Je
necessary policy on wt•ich his Majesty's Govein-
went had been Compelled to act. He certainly was
no friend to the..iiicreae of capital punishmentS.
On this subjea he concurred -in a great measure'
With the Hon., and Learned iGentle,man, Oho hod
so' frequently brought it under the "codsideration of
Parliament (Sir S: Romiliy). But were that Hun.'
and Learned Gentleman present; he (Mr. S.) was,
persuaded !hal • he. would not • say that the present
was a case to which his principle could properly be
applied. The ciecumst,-„nce of the Oath' having been
found in the .prickel of one of the persons who'
had attacked Mr. Burton's premises,. was made
light of ; but let it be tecollected, that that person
was one of a body who made such a desperate at-
tack upon those premises ;. that 'although "eight of
their number were killed, they yet sUcceeded
burning them. He did .not profess to be .more
alarmed than others at wllat was taking place in the
country, but he really was , astonished that there
should be' found in any mad in thbi 'House a total
want of sympathy with his Majesty's Government
on the occasion. The oath had been treated es a
kind o( "private engagement. 'lt Was an oath, by
which those who took it, bound themselves 'to as,.
sassinate all who violated its conditions. There,
was reason to conclude that not:lesS that 120,000
persons had taken this dreadful and abominable
oath. If, under these circumstances, his Majesty's
Government had omitted for a single'day to propose-
to Parliament some remedial measure, they would
have de4erved the indignation of the country.; for
who could be bold enough to say, that at the.ver)l
moment he was speaking, rivers of blood might not
be flowing in consequence- of that desperate coM--
bination, which it was the objet of the present
• prop9sition to dissolve
Mr. NVHITBREAD allowed that the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman had very improperly been
called to order by his Honourable and Learned
Friend: He had not departed from the common
praelice. It was an ordinary intimation in that
House, that all opposition to the measures of Go-
verninem originated in the spirit of, party:. And
this intimation was thrown out by those who were
themselves themost active paitizans. Of this de-
scription he conceived the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman to be—

Mr. STEPHEN spoke to order.
The SPEAKER said that it was disorderly to impute
party motives to any Hon. Metubd.
Mr. WHITBREAD expressed his regret at having
offended the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, but in
saying that he was imbued evith the spirit of party,
he merely followed the. example which the Hon.
Gentleman had set. It the Hon. Gentleman
ed not to,be offended, he must avoid affording an
example of offence. The Hon. and Learned Gee.
tlernan, while he. recommended moderation, had
not exhibited Much himself. He had attributed
to his Hon. and "Learned Friend the introdutlion
into his speech, of language expressing a sympathy •
for she personstewho were-eoucerned in the present
unfortunate disturbanceS, and this because his Hon.
and Learned Friend stated that the accumulated
distress which the measures of Government had oc-
casioned, gave to those persons the- power of se-
ducing irLitviduals who would otherwise be out of
the reach of their/ wiles. •What hid been said by
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and by the
-Bight.Hon. Gentleman, of the effect of inflamma-
tory topics—of the alarm which they excited—of -
the dangers which attended them, &c. all went to
the extinction of public debates. According to this
principle, the national edicts should be passed in '
private—the penalty of death: should be declared . by
proclamation, and not be discussed—the House
should sit , with closed doors, and not a word of
what was said within theireWalls should be allowed
to go forth to the public. Could the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman seriously believe that he (Mr:
W.) or either of his Hon. and Learned Friendso.vas
an abettor Of assassination, or that he was less dis-
posed to ptit it down than any man in that House ?
The friends of the Bill assumed that the penalty
of death had cured the evil. Those who opposed
it contended, that by such an ,enaament the evil
would he aggravated. If, as had been stated by the
Hun. and Learned Gentleman, not a moment ought
to be lost, theltight Hon. Gentleman was extreme-
ly culpable for not having (as it was in his power to
do) brought forward the subject some 'days ago.—
But why not watt the etleal'of the existing law ?
Would any one say, that in 1797 the danger did
not appear equally great to the mind of
,Mr. Pitt, or
that the deeds of that period were less atrocuus than
those of the present ? And y©t Mr. Pitt did not. by
any means think such a measure necessary as that
now proposed. Supposing this Bill should pass,
but should fail in producing the etfeet predicted,
would !the Right Hon. Gentleman .recommend the
adoption of any further proceeding ? Perhaps, if
death should fail in quieti-ng the country, he might
advise torture, and suggest the revival of the horrible

statutes of Henry VIII. by which it was enaeted, •
that offenders apinst them -should-be boiled. Th'e
'Hon. Gentleman seemed to treat this supposition
with contempt,. as the mosrldreadful tortures had. '
recently been inflicted in the empire. Let the !
House reCullea what, took place in Ireland in 1797
and 1798. At those 'periods torture was, inflitied is
that country, and the u,se of it justified. by the Lord
Chancelior;•-• The., Right -Hon.-Gentleman appeared--
to be deaf to the lessons of experience. In the
Nottingham Bill, the penalty of death was enaCted.
Ha \ any more. discoveries ,taken place in Conse-
quence ? Was, that county in a more ttannnilised
state I The strongest argument against the pro-
poSed Bill was that' which had been so ably 'urged
by his 'Hon...and Lea* rried-Frieuds, namely, that' it
made no• difference between the administration of
an oath and the assassination of a man. 00 these
grounds, arid not on any party_ motive, which, in-
:deed, it was utterly inapossible to feel on such a so- .
lemn occasion as' the' pre,sent,,he must vote against
the introdualoo. of the Bill.
Mr. LOCKHART 9 bserved, that the Hon. Gen-
tlemen oppbsite hae a tt&rilpteLl to blend the conduct
of--Government with the distresses' of the agitated .
distriel.s;as if ,hey were the cause and. effeel. , Thy ,
had also depicted the nature of the offence against .
which the proposed Bill was immediately di-- •
\reeked, in less glowing colours than it deserved.—
It was not merely's_ conspiracy to commit murder,
but it was a conspiracy to. give e 1 by threats
of murder, to the at'is. of a' Secret Committee.—
The proceedings of those who were engaged in tins
disturbances evinced that that Committee
.00bld
have no other object in view but the-destruction of
the law and constitutijoa or th.e kingdom. -He was _
happy that this discdssion had taken place, tor be
wasperstiaded that great good would- result from the.
attention of- the whole, country-. being-431kt', to the.
subjeol..
Mr. ABERCROMBIE was .of opinion, that before
such a prOposition as the present had been submitted'
to Parliament, accurate, intortnat,ion respeCting
alleged necessity for its adoption should have been
laid-on the table of the House. He Could not be-
lieve on the authority of the- Hon. and Learned
Oentleman; there -were one hundred and twenty
thousand persons united in an illegal- combination..
The fad probably was, that ,there might not be tea.
thousand, or eight thousand,,or even two thousand,
so,comhiped. After repeating several of the' ob-,
jedions made to the Bill by his 'Honourable and
Learned Friends, he concluded by observing, that,
other oportunities wonld.be afforded him of express-
' ing More fully hiS sentiments on the subject.
Mr.-BATHIJ4ST spoke in favour 'of the motion.
Mr: MARRYATT eXpleStd -himself in favour of,
the Bill.
Mr. HERBERT stated, that he should be glad to
know whether a fair experiment. had been 'mode of
the laws al, eady in existence', before he-gave his as-
sent to any -further proceedings.
Mr. D, GIDDY reprobated the idea of waiting for
ant- furiher-experimentof the operations of the law
as it now 'stood, when Jnurders were aatrally
witted, and-the destru&ion of property going on to
such an alarming degree. It would be impossible
that greater sufferings could be inflicted on indivi-
duals, or greater evil threatened tcilhe community-
.at large; unless the dtfenders were to resort I ihe
measure of burning the very corn ; and he hoped,
not only that those strong measures would be resort-
ed to, but that it 'they dirt not succeed, the greater
extremity of martial law would be finally put iti
.force.

Leave was then.given to bring in the Bill.
EAST INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER.
Previously to the Housegoing into the Commit•
tee on the Orders in Cotincil, the. CHANCELLOR of
the EXCHEQUER declared, that since Friday he had
made every inquiry into the circumstances, and
found, upon exarnimnion of all, that. it would bd
impossible to bring forward the East India question
. •
this session. '

• ORDERS IN COUNCIL.

The House then vent into a Committee.on the
prders in Council, and proceeded to the examination
of, witne.3ses.

• The ttit.withess examined by Mr. Stephen stated
himself to be much alarined on account of his fa-
mily, at the prospect of losing the trade i t whit h he
was engaged. It appeared that he had been engaged
in it eight yea's, live of which it had been a losing
trade. On a question here put by Mr. Stephen,
" And this is the trade, the loss of which disturbs
your paisental feelings !" .a long discussion occurred,
in which Mr. BrOughatn, Mr. Stephen; Mr. Tiet.
ney, Mr.-Marryatt, Mr. Ca:ttring, Mr. Littletou,
and others, participated.
A. division took place on a motion made by Mr:
Brougham, to expunge the question from t4-mit
rl es .

. Forthe motion TO—Against it 75.
• The question .was of course understood to stand
bn the minutes.

On returning to the gallery, %%efoutill Mr. BRAND
on his legs, complaining of the manner in which
the H its 4. had been occupied twin half-past eight
o'clock, inidiscus-ing the tone which should. be given
to.a qui s;ion pot to a witness, (tor was' nothing
more), which had precluded the possibility of his
blinginglorward the motion of which he had given
notice, at any thing like a proper hour. Hie was,
however, determined to press it, unless a day at the
beginning of next week were named, on which it
could be brought for Ward at an early hour in the
evening.

Hert; it was observed, that it could be brought on
to-MOrro ;
'b,,t, atter a few words frAm tilt. PON..
SONBY, the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, Mr.
WHITBREAD, and Mr..BmtiNG, Mr.•BaAND eon-
sen:ed le postpone • his, motion to Friday, wiih an
underitanding, that on.that day it would be sit: feted
to precede the Orders.
The Committee • then proceeded, with their ex-
aminations. The' last witness was again. cacallede
The following witnesses afterwards gave evidence
at the bar, viz. H. Dunbar, W. Barrister; T. Clark,
R. Smith, Milwood, 11.• Watson, Mr. H.Croome,
and Mr. Mitchener. Tile last witness to correct
his.former,evidence.

The House then resumed. The Chairman re-
ported progre,s, and the Committee is to. sit again
to-morrow (this day.)

Mr.. WHITBREAD postponed his motion respell-
ing the Correspondence of Sir Jades Cr?tig and
Mr. Henry until ThUr4cly chest 4t b inst.
At One o'Cloek this murninz. the Houso ad-
journed. •