The Sun.
London, England, 1812-01-18 00:00:00

LOSS 0-F THE SHIPS OF WAR.

Mr.NEIITBREAD begged leave, hefoie the Chair.,
man left the, Chair, to put a qoestion which he fear-
ed-should rather have been proposed ,X hen the vote
to the Seamen was propoSed. The subjyct, how-
ever, bad excited so much.agilation in the public.
mind, that he trusted he would he permitted to putt
it in the present instance. He, did not. mean to
throw any blame upon any individual whatever, - but
he, vv ished the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Yorke)
would state to the,Eleusewhy those two gr eat „ships,
the Si. George and Defence, had been left in such a
situation as had caused their-less, and by v.v:tat means
that loss was occasioned.
Mr. Y:ott.KE,.evidently much,afr_clq, ,r plied,
that Keith regnd to the Ipss•incurred it was .certainly.
but too true. The ships and Ike stores were of little
importance, but the number of gallant lives destroy-
ed by that.. unfortunate accident was ituptnumt in-
deed. With regard,to the circtunstances by which
we had sustained so great a loss, they were-entirely
owing to those acciddms of wind and .weather,
hich it was impossible to foresee and to. piovide.
against. The ship Hero, the loss of which) we bad
also to lament, was cast away, owing, he believed
among other causes, to a (atilt in the navio-dipn,and
riot malting allowance for the current aid) pre-
vailed in those seas. It wAs a matter that.deserved
consideration, in lirder to ensreu tUmir4ror ive 4h
i;avigacion in the North Roads, and by that means
to provide agan st such occurrences hereafter., With
regard to the :hit)s alluded to in the Hon. Gentle-
in:as question, he could state that orders were is-
sued from the Admiralty, direaing that no ships
should remain in the North Seas after the t st ot No-
vember. The weather, however, prevented the
convoy from arriving until -the 17th of that month.
In the storm one of the vessels fed foul of the other,
which by the shock lost its rudder: Atter the D--
fence was sunk, the St. George was driven ashore,
but expectations were entertained of her weatherhz
out the storm, insomuch sp that the Admiral did
not shift' his flag, as he might have done. Unfor-
tunately, however, those expectations were not rea-
lized. As to the detention of the convoy, it was.
owing entirely to the state of the weather;, and so
far was. the Admiralty from being to blame, that
many applications were made • for cOn“))s to the
Baltic, at a later period, and were refused. .
Mr. WHITBREAD repeated, that he did not mean
to impute the slightest blame to any individual. He
was perfectly satisfied with the Riy,lit Hon. Gentle-
man's statement,„ and with the feeling which be
tnanifested on the occasion.

Mr. HUTCHINSON WiSll54 to know if any thing
was. done to improve the situstio❑
,of ti MaJine
Corps ?
Mr.YonKE said, he could not state at present that
any alteration was made:

The Report was agreed to, and ordered to be: re-.-
ceived to-morrow.

STATE OF,,THE METROPOLIS.

Alr. RYDER said, that in rising to move for an
inquiry into the state of the ,nightly .watch, he did
nut feel it necessary to enter at any great length into
the reasons by. Which he was induced to bring- for-
tynrcisuch a !notion. At the. same time,, he• felt
himself justified in stating, that if the expediency
of the measure rested upon the late -:horrible mur-
ders alone, by which two whole families were corn-
pictely exterminated, the atrocity of thoSe crimes
would in thenisrlyes offord a sufficient ground. It
was true that no system of police could prevent the-
commiSsion.of such murders, while there were per-
sons vile and abandoned enough,to commit them,
under such circumstances-of -dexterous depravity ;
but as a better regulation of the nightly watch must
hate a tendency. to. diminish the chances, it was
right that it should be resorted Jo, Those Gentle-
men who had seen other countries, and attended
to their internal situation and gmeilllnent, must
know,
.that even in:places where the peace- was
committed to the care of an armed police, a police
furnished...with all those powers, with which under
'a despotism it was possible ,to furnish it, with
out any regard, to the prejudices of the .people ;
they must know that even in such places and under
such regulations, atrocities such as those were com-
mitted almost nightly, without exciting any of those
deep impressons under which mind of this coun-
try at present suffered; and it might be regarded as
A Irma, that few ads' of the kind were committed
here, when they looked to the consternation excited
:in the present instance. U
,certainly was.true that
for the last three or lour mouths, offences, though
not altogether of so horrid a description, were mul-

Alplied beyond the experience of former year; ; and
,Itnatigh many accounts had got into the public
,P.,Kitkasw hich µ ere true, many also were exeggerated
and may false. Heeknew nut whether the-Gentle--
men around him:were acquainted 'with the law by
which the nightly watch witmegulated. In ,tormerr
times each parish. provided for itself, and it was oot"
;until 1774, that Parliament interfered, and passed an
aCI which ntP1igd.9.111,YA0..1.5
parishes. By that Act, Directors and Trustees were
appointed, under whose controul, the watch, the
patrole,antf.the beadles, were all placed, and who -
were entrusted ,also with the power of assessing
the rates - upon each parish. It was no wonder
that this Act should ,be' ,found insuf*iept at the
present day, whet) they. cobsidtmed the enormous
increase of the Metropolis. He should' not
trouble the House by attempting to enomeratx the
various instances in which the pro Visions of this
Act were evaded and. negle6led : it wodld be Sof7
fieient-to mention one. The Aa reqoired that the
trusteewsbould-a4bint ne.ne but able-bodied_ men,
and he would leave to their own obServation to•de-'
cide.boW far this -was- complied with. He knew
that there were many instances in which those who
were.too old to earn their bread; were appointed to.
the situations of watchmen, in order to prevent,
:heir be.cotnieg a burden-to the- parish. Thee were.
trotJiremen to secure_ the lives and properties of
the inhabitants. If, the ,House agreed with him in
the appointment of the
,C.ormaittee. for which he
should move, it would be for that Committee not
ooli to consider the 461.0 t _Pdrliament, but also the
I;,ariety' of local Acts upon
_the same suhje6t, It
would be for.ihem.lo decide whether it was advis-
able to alter the
.system entirely, or whether'
W.oadebee_sutEcient to eufareetle .presyat Act _with-
out any ianov,ation. It would be for them to cortsi-
der what,course they would recommend, and there-
fore it was quite unnecessary, indeed • it would. be
onoecoming, in him to, anticipate that by propteoing
any arrangement 'of his own. As far,-however, as
he had thoUght upon the subjea, he had no objec-
tion to state generally, that he rather inclined to
the notion of enforcing the present system by -ade-
quate- provisions, than of having recourse to any
new Att. It was .materiali, he thought, for him
to State, that when the Legislature .foni,l it neces-
sary to turn their attention to this subjeCt, they. did
so in consequence .of the variety of local Acts ap-
plicable t o,each parish, and
.producing a confusion
which it was of the utinost consequence to reme-
dY : for instance, the parish of Pancras
_was di-
vided into seven distriats, each, of which had its
own loyal Acts. /The interests of the parties
thus Created, should be diScussed and reconciled
as well as possible with the new arrangeMent ;
-and this was one of the prinCipal reasons "which
induced him to -prefer the aripoiniment of a Corn.
iniftt e, to any other made of proceeding. The House
had adOpted the same course in the year 1774, and
it was his inientidn, in the present.case to propose
tlie—COminittee, Who
were most intrusted, as well as mot likely to be ace
qtr.:tinted with the nature of the different intereqs
that would be affected by the change. He should
therefore Move, if the House agreed to the appoint=
ment of the Committee, that the Members for Lon-
don, Westminster, Middlesex and Surrey, shoal' be
members of the same. He concluded with moving
that 4§..lcet Culavni! tee sluarld lie app,oiated GatAlar
-.lltlrpose of considering the state of the nightly watch,
in the nrekroeolis.

Sir S. ROMILLY said he was surprised at the mo-
tion of his Right Hon. Friend. No one, he was
persuaded, who was acquainted with what had
passed, and with the alarm and terror which had
spread through the metropolis, but must have ex-
pected that some more extensive measure would
have been resorted to than that now under consi-
deration. He should think, that a Committee ap-;
pointed upon such art occasion, would find it ne-
cessary to inquire not only into„ the state of the
nightly watch, but into the causes of the increase.
of felories and crimes ; and. he was sure, that
a comprehensive view of this kind would be more
calculated to produce the desired effect Allan- the
contracted course recommended. He had no
other means than were common to every body of
informing himself upon the d-fferent facts con-
neCted with this question ; bUt it was evident, that
crimes had greatly increased in number and atro-
city. It appealed from the yearly returns, that
there was a gradual increase in this respea, for the
last five or six years. He did/ not advert to the
ccenmittals ate Quarter St..ssiOns, 'but to the whole
number of those at the Old Bailey, 'and he was sure
the House. would be surprised at their extent. In-
t 806, tiee persons were convitted at the Old Bailey.
In 1807,.1017 In .1808, 1110. In 1808, 1314.
In 1810, 1424 ; so that in rite last five years, lite
number of committals had increased from 89 'to
1424_; and this in a state.of war. It was certain
that fewer otTeuces were committed in time of war
than in lime of l eace ; for many of. thozse bold and
daring icharaCters Were embarked in the service of
their country, and retetered.esefelegainst her ene-
toles, instead of 'becoming dangerous at home.—
Among all the calamities" that attended a
.state of
war, there was ,still one advantage to be derived
from it, that it afforded greater dotnestic/security in
the way he had already described. But in the case
of this country of late, so• far from being able to
calcelate on this solitary advantage, we beheld
crones increasing, and domestic security becoming
mote precarious. The country-should know what
was ttre-cause—of thiJ; He would state to the.
House Some of the causes which appeared na-
tural to him, for the purpose of shewieg the ne-
cessity of a. more extensive measure. He thought
it must appear that the system of punishment, so
long, and (without offence to arty individual (he
would say, so obstinately persevered in', had in them-
selves t he effeet ofencoura,,ing the number of crimes.
He did not allude here to the frequency of capital pu-
nishrnents,but to the pnnishments less than death,and
above all,' to proanscuous imprisonments. Iw con-
sequence of that practice, it was known, that boys,
convicted of offences, were put into the same prisons
with hardened wretches; from thence they could
derive nothing but the basest examples. Many, too,
were condemned to the hulks, where there were
instances of the most atrocious crimes, where
they mingled with the worst of criminals, and from
thence, .af'er a certain period, they were chsunissed,
without any'sort of provision, leaving these colleges.
of infamy, to exercise upon society those arts and
praciices in which they were insttucted. He be-