The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-20 00:00:00

land.. To hold out to able-bodied persons that they should
be entitled to out-door relief would destroy every motive to
independenee—to that self-reliance on which this Right
Honoerable Baronet the Member for Tamworth had
laid so much stress— these seven hundred thousand
persons would at once be transferred from public works to re-
ceive relief under the Bill before the House. In six counties
—Sligo, Roscommon, Leitrim, Galway, Clare. and Mayo,
1,30 ),000 persons were at present receiving assistance in the
shape of employment under the Labour Rate Act; but
the whole of the rates in tho-v counties was only one
million seven hundred thousand pounds; it was therefore a
mockery and a delusion to say that the rates could support such a
vast number. He admitted that the land must now be taxed
to a greater extent than heretofore for the support of the poor.
The famine was the difficulty by which the Noble Lord was
pressed, and to meet it he proposed a permanent measure for
what was a temporary calamity. He felt certain that the Go-
vernment were introducing a principle of which they did not
approve—a principle which he believed would be productive of
much evil and diaster. There was a latent disposition to in-
dustry in the people, and it ought to be the province of the
Government to stimulate instead of deadening it, and if the
people knew that there was a permanent law to compel the
Government to support them, they would be inclined to remain
indolent. For these rest ons he would move the omission of
clause 2 (A) in the Bill, and when the time came he was
prepared to take the sense of the House upon it.—( Hear.)
Mr. D. BROWNE said that there was a general opinion in
Ireland that out-door relief was the only system of relief agree-
able to the people of Irelansl. —( Laughter.) And he hoped
that the Government would persevere in their intentions.
The landlords of Ireland had neglected their duty, and some
decisive step ought to be taken.
Mr. YOUNG said he was of opinion that the property of
Ireland should support the poor, aud with that view he sup-
ported the measure of the Noble Lord some rears since to in-
troduce a poor-law into Ireland, which had effected many col-
lateral advantages. He, however, considered that the
first clause of the Bill would more than double
the present rates of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) Since
many who would find their supper: t from private resources,
and who would never enter a workhouse, would now seek and
obtain relief. He, therefore, considered that the objections of
the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of
Dublin were not exaggerated. With regard to the second
clause, he was of opinion that it introduced a most dangerous
principle—it contemplated a permanent remedy for what was
only a temporary evil, and was only calculated to alarm and
mislead. There was nothing in the Bill which made it at all
necessary that out-door relief should be given to he Irish
pauper. He had an extract from a letter written by a gen-
tleman employed on the Commission both in England and Ire-
land, which stated that those who were employed on out-door
works were demoralised, and their employment generated a bad
feeling between them and the ordinary working classes. The
provisions of this Bill had generated a very great feeling of alarm.
Amongst the proprietors of land in Ireland, in the county of
Cavan, there were three unions in which the respective ratings
were already 71/2d., 91/2d., and 103 Sid. in the pound, and upon
such rating would the Government attempt to enforce the ad-
ditional expense of out-door relief. In the last census taken,
it was found that in that county there was one
labourer to nine statute acres, that was to say
twice as many as could be employed, even supposing
their agriculture to be of the very best description.
He was afraid that before the agriculture of Ireland attained a
high pitch, years upon years of experienee must be gone
through ; but in its present condition it was impossible for it to
support the burden about to be placed on it.
Lard JOHN RUSSELL said that the Right Hon. Gentle-
man who had moved this clause in Committee upon this Bill,
proceeded in his speech upon a fallacy. The Right Hon.
Gentleman seemed to suppose, and to take it for granted, that
the present state of Ireland was to be a criterion for the present
poor-law. In his argument, he had asked, how is this clause
and this Bill to provide for the present calamitous necessities
of Ireland. He should admit at once, as he had already ad-
mitted in the course of that evening, that he did not think
that a permanent poor-law, or any permanent law would pro-
vide for a state of things so calamitous as they at present ex-
isted in Ireland. When he heard the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman say that there were 31)0,000 persons now residing in
Mayo, and that the property of that cr,unty was not
sufficient to support them by out-door relief, he must say that
they could not expect that the Right Hon. Gentleman's
description referred to the usual state of things in Ireland.
He could not admit that the present Bill, and particularly the
clause then under consideration, was to be tried by such a
test, and indeed if they were to try it by that test,
how completely would all the circumstances mentioned
by the Right Honourable Gentleman fail. The Right
Honourable Gentleman had sad that he did not
correctly represent the views of the deputation, which he saw
upon that subject. He was very sorry if he had not correctly
represented their views on what he had said, but certainly he
did wish to convey what they had said, and he admitted
the importance of the observations of the gentlemen whom he
then saw. The Right Hon. Gentleman said, that
one of their declarations represented that they were
fully prepared to admit that property in Ireland should be
burdened to any extent for the purposes of indoor relief. Let
the House apply that system of indoor relief to that which
the Right Hon.. Gentleman took as the usual state of things in
Ireland. Let them try that as compared with the present state
of things in Ireland. Let them take 700,000 persons, heads
of families, representing 3,000,000 persons, and who
would build workhouses to contain that number?—
( Hear, hear.) Yet if they look, the Right Ilonourable
Gentleman's argument in its application to the present Bill
and to the eresent state of things in Ireland, and if they took
it as well for itself as for the measure to be proposed, he did
not remember anything of very great importance which was
proposed as a substitute, except the system of in-door relief,
which system, be it remembered, was contained in the present
Act of Parliament for the poor-law for Ireland. It was
therein enacted, that if there was- not sufficient room in the
workhouse it should be lawful for the board of guardians to
raise money for the purpose of building a new workhouse, or
of making additions to the existing workhouses. That Bill
had not provided for a state of things at all resembling the pre-
sent calamities of Ireland. Would the Right Hon. Gentleman
who had thus argued from the present state of things show
how vague the poor-law might be to remedy them.
The Right Honourable Gentleman who had just sat
down had proceeded upon a fallacious argument, for
he had represented it as the wish of the Government that
out-door relief should be the determined rule, and in-door
relief the exception, in Ireland. He thought that the Hon.
Gentleman in that respect had misunderstood both the Bill
which was then proposed and the observations which he (Lord
John Russell) had made to the House before the Speaker left
the chair that evening. He had never argued that it was fit
or desirable that out-door relief arid help should be given as a
general rule from the unions of Ireland. He was not of opi
moo that, in itself, it was a desirable system. The Hon.
Gentleman would admit, that no labour given in the rural
parishes of England was a sufficient test of the existing desti-
tution. He entirely subscribed to that sentiment. The
system of out-door relief had been decried, but how was the
Government to relieve those who were suffering, unless by a
system of out-door relief, when the workhouses were full ?
This case he had stated when he formerly addressed the House,
and he now wished to fix their attention on it, as being the
ordinary mode of relief. In this respect take the law of England.
It was sufficient for the purpose of meeting the destitution of
the country, and all he asked was, that they would make the
law of Ireland also sufficient for the same purpose. In illus-
tration he would call the attention of the House to a case of
great distress at Todmorden some years ago. In this parti-
cular case the workhouse was quite full, and the guardians of
the poor ordered that the able-bodied should receive out-door
relief. The law was, that the guardians should apply some
test, to show that the party who might seek relief was really
destitute, and with this view, that the relief should be
given in food and in the workhouse, or out of t• e
workhouse if there was not accommodation within.—( Hear. )
He asked should that relief be denied to Ireland, and that
there should be no sufficient resources for the guardians when
the workhouse was full, but that they should be obliged to say
we cannot see you die of hunger, but we have no alternative,
as the law prevents us raising the necessary funds?—( Hear,
hear.) For such a case as this he proposed the present system
of relief. He did so, because he was afraid that in the years
before them—though the calamity of destitution might not
exist to its present extent—that very serious distress would be
found to pervade Ireland. The Hon. Gentleman who had
just spoken said, and said truly, that there were three times
the number of agricultural labourers to the land of Ireland
compared to what there were on the best cultivated districts of
England ; and four times the number there were on the ave-
rage of English land. Still there must be some way or other
of providing for these Irish labourers.—(Cheers.) There had
grown up an unfortunate confidence, not only among the
poorest, but among the richest, of that country, in the potato
as the food of the people.--( Hear, hear.) This being so, and
considering the failure of the crop, it could not be expected
that the potato would ever again constitute the permanent food
of the people to the same extent as before. Other crops
would have to take the place of the potato, in order to supply
the same quantity of food which that root before supplied.
But he said that in order to do so, and in order to
lead to a better system of cultivation, they could have no
other resource so good as charging the property of Ireland
with the maintenance of the destitute poor.—(Cheers.) He
also bslicved, as it respected the ordinary condition of the
country, and the suppression of vagrancy and mendicity, that
this measure would operate in a beneficial manner ; that, as it
regarded the bad habits which these engendered, no scheme
would be so good, in putting an end to them, and in operating
as an inducement to both landlords and farmers to improve
their system of cultivation. It would cause the abandonment
of useless and unproductive works, and be the means of engaging
the labourers in the cultivation of the fields. In future there
would be greater cultivation of land than there had been, for
unless the soil was much more scientifically worked, the popu-
lation could not be in a satisfactory or happy state. A great
transition would take place, one of much difficulty and danger,
and it behoved the Government, in consulting all the interests
of the country, to consider what measure would be best calcu-
lated to assist the country through. Taking the advice of
Sir R. Kane in his excellent work on the industrial
resources of Ireland, they would have to consider the most
adequate and best mode of cultivating the land
and increasing its produce. He thougt that the
mode of living of the Irish poor, their habits indolent and
slothful, arising out of the great facility of procuring food with
little labour, and their wretched dwellings destitute of all do-
mestic comforts, in a great degree were the cause of the want
of skill and energy among them. But the labourers no longer
depending on the potato for food, he believed would be a cause
why the farmers would greatly improve in the cultivation of
their lands, and in general habits. Ile believed that no
labourers were more capable of exertion ; none could
more advantageously employ their powers than
the Irish labourers.—( Hear, hear.) During inquiries which
he had made at the time the measure of the Noble Lord the
Member for Lynn respecting railways, was under considera-
tion, he (Lord John Russell) had obtained some information on
this subject. He was informed that it hail been said, when
Irish labourers went on railway work, that for the first two or
three weeks they had a good deal to learn, but the work of
education went rapidly on, and it was found that in six weeks
they could labour as well as any of the others.—( Hear,
hear.) In France, where the English labourers on
railways were paid higher rates of wages than
French labourers, the Irishmen were reckoned equally
skilful with the English and equally well paid.—(Hear, hear.)
If, therefore, such were the disposition and power of the Irish
labourers, why not direct them to the cultivation of the land,
and thus occupied why might they not expect them to be as
good and skilful?—(Hear, hear.) It was his strong belief
that the present measure would cause a new existence' among
the Irish farmers and labourers. At present there was a great
difference in many parts of Ireland, for though some districts -
he could not look upon but with alarm, in others great DIED.
exertion was making for the next harvest, and
altogether a greater breadth of land was sown than 017 the I f;th 'just , tat Bou'logne.i.su6r-tner, Mrs. A.thill, widow 0
wiOd 11 tloitecldbh Suer DIED
Cl.
Mrs. Witten7;
there had ever been before, being the beginning of a new state late J. Athill, Esq., aged 75.
of existence, and a new system of cultivation.—( Hear, hear.)
If they looked to the past history of the English poor-lase, they tin)oe.ll.7
Illeiro,s,,tg.,eda.t7,9l..lfred Cottages, Kent-road, Mr. Joseph C°l.
would find that at first it was provided that the able-bodied he°aClL,
On the 17th inst.,
dllce,rbert, son of Mr. W. H. Chaplin. of 131'h°01::
labourers, who would not work, should be sent to the workhouse St(°:,itftiirl'l7ltileiriti'is'ta.,gke'anny, the wife ot Mr. F. W. Tuach, of Prey
as a punishment, and obliged to wear a badge of disgrace. Lancashire.
of Grove'
Subsequently they had recourse to another system. In the on the viol inst., Mary, the wife of E. W. Morris, Esq.,
reign of George the Ist, the workhouse test was introduced,
horse,
the'e near
J.Stuhnbilill'sTc,lnel"Graceehurch-stteet, William iteadsbalr obliging those who were out of employment and destitute,
while there was room in the workhouse to go in there ,so as to Aloornle7h,eElsBitiii
jaufsetd.,
Thomas
show that if they were really in want of food and shelter, their At Goring-heath,
rtnßaeoaPdianrgs,loCaroline
a phoian ,thSeoueli
dhewstardica.tign.
going in there was proof of their condition, and food and terof the nee. lt. T. Powys.
shelter would then be accordingly given, care at the same time
being taken that the relief should not make the condition of London: Printed and Published by MURDO YOlTNla,thofe.;;;el,- let
SAttlrdArt
the recipient better than that of the independent labourer.-- I
°r the'
Intaiynotye,r,iant 77threeScuonunOffityceo,iN)ontalle,ssextr,and, moo
(Hear, h:ar.) Such a system was one which required gee
29, 1847.

The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
Fur the clause
36 Against it

Majority for the clause 206
The House then resumed.
The t. HAIRSIAN reported progress, and o
of the
sit again on Monday, to consider the remaining clauses
Bill.
OF
THE PRISONS BILL AND THE CUSTODY
OFFENDERS BILL
were, on the motion of Sir G. GREY, read a second time lin
ordered to be comn.ii ted.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and th°
House adjourned at a Quarter before Otte o'clock.
obtained leave to

UAILWAY COMMITTEES.

(YESTERDAY.)

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
GROUP I.
The Select Committee appoirred to consider the merits of
,1
the Bills comprised in this Group re-assembled in Room
at the usual hour this morning; Lord Granville Somerset I'
the chair.

NORTH ICENT LINE.
Mr. Bidder's evidence was continued. The line from Strood
to Chilham was an extension of the Gravesend and bridge,
ter line. It would cross the Medway on a railway
sheer-
and extend on to Halstowe, where it branched en `",
ness, crossing the Swale on a wooden bridge. -DT-
roing
from lla!stowe the line entered a tunnel of 400 Pru''
skirted the north side of Sittingbourne, then reached Favfroe
ham, and terminated in junction with the existing line Quid
Ashford to Canterbury at the Chilharn station. There sirs;ol,
be a station at Rochester, Chatham, Strood, 13y
stowe, Faversham, and a variety of road-side stations. los
the present line the distance from London to Canterbury oes
80 miles; it would be reduced by the new line to 60 mint
and 7 furlongs. There was no doubt, in an engineering r-tihe
of view, the South-Eastern line was far superior t° logs
Brighton line. The Brighton lines encountered da,c,sui, to
at Boughton-hill which it would be almost impossciu—tli.
overcome. These difficulties were avoided by the (.lille
Eastern line. 'acre were two tunnels on theßrightnntber
from Maidstone to Canterbury, one 2,955, and the °ere,
1,478 yards in length. The gradients were extremely seLaes
while the line, as from London to Canterbury, was two
shorter than than the South-Eastern (North Kent) line.
TILE ESTIMATES.
The estimated cost of the line from London to Dr '7)001
was 70,0001., and from Lewisham to
.Croydon, 14210'
The estimated cost of the line from Strood to Chilh,l6ool.
eluding the branch to Sheerness and Faversham, was 90',
The estimated coat of the line from Maidstone to Chart,' d
414,000/. The estimated cost of the Maidstone and St ~.""t°11;
as an integral line was 275,0001.; the estimated cost e't. the
Dartford branch was 84,0004, and the estimated cost °io
Mid Kent, from the junction with the Dartford Brame" 1•'
Maidstone, Paddock-wood, and Tonbridge, was 1,016, of
making a grand total of 2,966,0004 The total estitua'„
the Brighton Company for these lines was 1,900,0001., .85
This closed Mr. Bidder's examination in chief. 11c:3.4
cross-examined at some length by Mr. Talbot, but his'''.
evidence remained unshaken.
The Committee adjourned at four o'clock till Monday

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE
The Committee met yesterday at twelve o'clock.
The following were the decisions come to during the°
uf
of the day:—
MIDLAND RAILWAY (WORCESTER, HEREF°,9
MALVERN, AND CHELTENHAM LINES, W 1
BRANCHES TO SUDBURY).
Standing orders not to be dispensed with.
IMPORTANT ANN OUNCEMENT,

MANCHESTER AND SOUTHAMPTON (No. 0)
Allowed to proceed on condition of depositing new P
and sections of the datum line. WitS
The Committee were occupied nearly the entire dai eet'
this case, and the greatest excitement was evinced resfoot
ing the decision, which was not announced until bail r
four o'clock. The lobbies were crowded to excess.

f
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~
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On the IGth inst., at St. MaRIR7I7S
ry's-road, Peckham, the lady of Joa-
de Mancha, Esq., of a son.
On the 17th inst., at St. German's-place, Blackheath, Mrs.cuther.
land, of a son. Rot,
On the 18th inst , Wokefield-park, Berks, the lady of
Allfrey, Esq., of a son.

O❑ the l7th inst , nt Erskine House, Hampstead-heath, the
Henry- Bruce, Esq., of a (laughter.
On the !sill inst., at Larkhall-rise, Clapham, Mrs. Robert H•
cher, of a son.
On the (sill init., at 31ile-end, Mrs. Buncombe, of a daugl_2ls-1----'..

MARRIED. „
At St. Jams s's, Paddington, John 'Montgomery Campbell, rA,''
in-lily Georgina, eldest daughter of G. Chilton, Esq.,

care, in its administration, still he firmly believed that to the,
poor-law, and to the suaression of vagrancy and mendicsney,
they were indebted for the social order which had characterised the
seciety of England, and it was one great reason why industry.
ti add, and commerce, had been so successful in this country,"
( Hear, hear.) He confessed he felt great difficulty in intl.
order
°.
clueing the measure at the present time, but he did so in
to effect the future improvement of Ireland.—(Cheers. .a
Mr. LEFRO Y, who rose amid loud cries of "Divide," said
that after the speech they had heard from the Noble Lord, be
felt it his duty to make some observations to the House Kith
re.pect to the deputation which had waited upon his Lordship'
He, and the others, who formed that deputation, did not this,:
they were asking too much in requesting him to give some ate
tention to the resolutions which they were instructed to plac_,
before him. And before he told the House what the result s,
that interview was, he would take the liberty of reading the
recommendation of the Poor-law Commissioners to the Goveth7
ment.—(Loud cries of " Oh, oh," and much confusion.) Nner,;
having alluded so far-s-(Cries of ,6 Oh, oh," " Divide, divide',
and marks of impatience)—the Hon. Member proceeded 000.
from the report, but so much confusion prevailed, that the 11;1%
Member's voice was scarcely audible. Having thus alluded to
the Poor •law Commissioners, he would proceed to state what 701;
the opinions of many gentlemen.—(Cries of " Divide,
,)
oh, oh," and a variety of noises from all parts of the Id°ne
What, said Dr. Doyle.—( Oh, oh.) He was sorry to tre9Pss,
~
would allow upon the patience of the House.—(lncreased confusie.o,
He had a duty to perform, and he trusted they
a hearing.—( sof "Divide, eivide," and 01-1, °hi
The Hon. Member here read several of these opinions'm
statement of which was quite inaudible, and then procee',de, rey
say, that if such be the case in, Ireland, could they, unleo b
adopted other measures, confer the the relief required, at blf
there were great applications for relief, there would be d!)",a,a,
the number if they adopted the proposition of the Noble lfr,,rt
( Cries of" Oh, oh," and " Hear, hear.") He would ass%
that this law could never he carried out without a great unli
tau force, and he would rather that a tax was levied en tb
landlords of Ireland.—( Cries of "Divide, divide," and great
confusion, and " Chair, chair.") If the Noble Lord were e
~
press this matter, he would be cutting the throats of the 1101°1
of property.—(Loud cries of " Divide," and " Hear, bear'
ci
The Hon. Gentleman then recuri ed to the opinions w
been expressed upon the Bill. Here there was sufficiestee,
thority for the opposition that had been expressed.—Pi"
dive, and Hear, hear.) Lord Devon's Commission expresso
the same thing.—( Oh, oh.) Now, he would ask of the hi,
Lord to reconsider t his question—(Renewed confusion)—foro
objections were not founded upon any opinions of his. 11/110
were no schemes of his, and before this law was essseuaeir
would ask of the Noble Lord to give them power over t.. 4
property, and to give them a supplementary Act to preve;d
that subdivision of tenancy which had been the ruin of Reiter
by legislation.—( Renewed confusion.) He would ask another
question and request an .ther boon, and that was, that all Pr",
perty in Ireland should be made to share the berdenS•
which bus,
( Divide, divide.) There was at the present time large to
tunes made in Ireland, and if facilities were to be gisenaal
business—if the great towns were to be improved—if net-
was to have fair play in one way it ought to have it in isnot er'
—( Renewed confusion.) The country was becoming
lined, and there ought to be some measures proposed for ner;
rying that civilisation into all parts of it.—(Fresh nrAlai
of " Divide, divide," and " Question, question.") He
not wish to press on the patience of the House.—(Cricji
of " Divide, divide," and " Chair.") There was so sauti
confusion in the House that it was almost impossible to
the Hon. Member's observations. He gave her Majesty's ria
verrinaent credit for being actuated by the best motives, bg•,
desired that they should introduce other measures which nip,
been recommended by commission upon commission. The
elusion of the Hon. (-3entlensan's speech was lust amid 1°-
cries for " Division."
Mr. ROSS, who was almost inaudible in the gallery
the loud noise which prevailed in the House, was understood
say that he would vote for the Government on the P
sent occasion, although he was not willing „it
give his unqualified support. He believed, however, tler
the Government were bound to try every measure in ofs.
to remedy the calamity which had befallen Ireland. Thee ;id
periment was a perilous one. In his opinion four acres W
now be insufficient to support a family, for he believed thane
would require ten acres, by reason of the potato failure.
would not lend the Government his support upon the emr—ca,
occasion, were it not that with the measure they bad in'ta
duced others mitigatory of the evils likely to:attend it; ancl,Lat
this feeling he would vote against the amendment of the s"
Hon. Gentleman.
of
Sir H. W. BARRON said that this question was 0"a
mi
the most vital importance to Irish proprietors, and betroth'
therefore that the House would allow him to make one or Olt
observations. If the House would llow him he would direr
its attention to certain returns which he held in his I°l
returns which (although he gave every credit to Geeeren3:4
for the care and attention they had exhibited in the fran'ita,
of this measure) would lie was afraid prove that their esPechea
tions were likely to be disappointed. The Hon. Baronet t
jai
went into a lengthened calculation to show that if England n'fa.
a rental of 62,00,0004 per annum was rated 5,000,0001•1, s
the maintenance of 1,500,000 paupers, Ireland, with en6oo,
rental of 13,000,6001. , and a pauper population of 2.300' lit
would, at the rate of 2'. 7s. 6d. each person, be charged 11°,t,
than 5,000,060/., an amount which he felt convinced cous'
be yielded by the country. It was not, however. his intew.
tion to vote against the Ministry, although he could not env
teal his fears that their anticipations of the good that would
suit from this measure were too sanguine. t S
Mr. FITZGERALD next addressed the House, but Obit
sentence reached the gallery. We understood him to sal Vs
when the religious houses had been suppressed in Irelandrlish
43d of Elizabeth, or what was commonly termed the Eng
Poor-law, ought to have been introduced into that country
Mr. SHAW replied. He would not detain the House leekei,
He merely wished to say, in reply to one remark of the Neult
Lord, that by giving in-door relief the unemployed would 7:11,
come for it, but be stimulated to depend on their own exertio,o
but by giving out-door relief they would come for it, flail,
all self-reliance, and thus become entirely dependent on
poor-rates.