The Sun.
London, England, 1840-05-20 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, MAY 20, 1840.

ferred the amendment of the Irish register, while it must
necessarily be a measure to cripple and control the frau-
chise.—(Hear, hear.) He would not demean himself by
imputing motives to the Noble Lord—his chivalrous con-
duct and boldness in debate were sufficient to in-
duce him to think be had no other motives but
those he professed.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") But
he must be allowed, at the same time, by the common
usages of party warfare, to declare his own opinions, and
to say that he thought the Noble Lord was mistaken, and,
unfortunately, blind. Looking to the whole scope and
tendency of the Noble Lord's conduct, he thought
it unfortunate that a Bill of this kind shonld have
originated with him.—(Hear, and cheers.) The Bill was
professedly a Bill to chasten and correct the Irish register
—to purge it of all doubtful and fictitious votes. There-
fore it was avowedly a Bill to diminish the constituency as
it at present stood, and he had no doubt there were some
Gentlemen who would be glad to deprive the Irish of the
hard won and hard earned right of Catholic emancipation.
It was certain, that if they passed the Bill then before the
House, they would be lighting a torch which would spread
itself over the entire country, and which would ulti-
mately tend to the repeal of the Union between the two
countries.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr, H. GRATTAN congratulated the Noble Lord
who bad just sat down upon the sentiments which he had
expressed. The people of England did not know what
they owed to the family of Russell, and the people of Ire-
land would never forget it. He regretted to have heard
the extraordinary and lamentable exhibition that had pre-
ceeded the speech of the Noble Lord. He had often heard
of plays in that House, but he had never before heard of a
farce.—( A laugh.) He believed the Hon: Baronet (Sir
G. Sinclair) and himself had spent some portion of the
earlier part of their lives together, and in the heydey of
youth the Hon. Baronet was certainly so much of a patriot
as to carry the speeches of Charles James Fox in his
pocket, and was in the habit of repeating cxracts from
them.
Sir G. SINCLAIR (emphatically)—" No, no,
(Great laughter.)
Mr. GRATTAN—In the main he was pretty certain
that the Hon. Baronet was a patriot. Therefore it was
that he was surprised at the want of good feeling, good
taste, and, he might add, good sense—( Great laughter)--
which characterised the speech of the Hon. Baronet, and
for which qualities the part of the country from which the
Hon. Baronet came was distinguished. The people of
Scotland were kind and just, but in the speech of the Hon.
Baronet there was neither kindness nor justice.—( Hear,
hear.) One passage of the Hon. Baronet's speech implied
that the Bills thrown to the Irish people by the Govern-
ment were mere garbage.
Sir GEO. SINCLAIR—No, no.
Mr. GRATTAN—That was the very picture of the
Irish Baronet, who had drawn largely upon Claude
Lorraine.—(Great laughter.) Another passage was where
the priests were represented as threateni,g with the
knife of the assassin. He must say, that when a
Member presumed to make a charge of that sort,
against persons who were hound by their oaths to pre-
serve the public peace, he must say that it was one of the
most audacious things he had ever heard uttered in that
House. Nay, more, he would add, that in olden times, an
Hon. Member making such a declaration would have been
stomped, and his words taken down. He pardoned the
Hon. Baronet, however, for the words were not his own—
they had been put into his mouth by another Hon. I3aronet,
rho had obtained some notoriety from the malignant ca-
lumnies which he had circulated against the Irish people.
He would be ashamed to produce to the House the ca-
lumnies of the Hon. Baronet's coadjutor, but although
they m ght be insulted by the legislation of that party,
they would not be insulted by the language. The Irish
had passed over many injuries that they would not, and
they (meat not, to forget. The Hon. Baronet had made
an assertion with regard to the Rev. Mr. Maguire,
which to his (Mr. Grattan's) knowledge was un-
founded.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He had asserted that
Mr. Maguire had stated that he would have 200,001 tee-
totallers to oppose Lord Stanley's Bill. Now he (Mr.
Grattan) never permitted improper language to be used in
his preserce ; and if such a statement had been made, be
would most decidedly have opposed it.—( Hear, hear.)
If the present Bill passed into a law, that would probaMy
be the last time when he would have the honour to address
them, fir he would never consent to sit in a House which
would pass such a measure. lion. Members might rest
satisfied that the Bill was levelled not only against the
Irish, but against the English people. The Bill am ob-
jectionable, because it was dishonest, hypocritical, and
would lead to interminable law litigation and confusion. It
had been said that a great debt of perjury existed under
the present system of registration in Ireland, but if
that were so, why were not the party prosecuted ? If an
Irishman came to reside in England, he could register his
vote without any expense or trouble, but if he attempted to
do so at home, his title-deeds were ransacked, and be was
pat to the greatest inconvenience and expense.
In fact, every facility was afforded for the elec-
tion cf voters in England. In the list of elec-
tors for Surrey, the Honourable Member opposite
would find that the stand. house at Epsom race-course—
a licuse not larger then the room in which they were
assembled—gave the right of voting to twelve persons as
joint-tenants. Now, that could not be done iu Ireland.
lie had no objection to its being done in England, and he
hoped they had all voted for the Hon. Member.
Mr. KM BL E—lt is not in my division.—( Hear, hear,
and a laugh.)
Mr. GRAT'rAN was sorry for it, for he was sure, if
it was, they would have all voted for the Hon. Member.
(Hear.) lie could assure the House that the people
of 'lreland were alarmed and excited on the proposed Bill.
The Noble Lord had declared once that the Irish Reform
Act only required a beneficial interest of 101. in his lease,
without calling on him to show that the solvent tenant
could pay more.—( Hear, hear.) Would the Noble Lord
be hound by that declaration ?—(Hear.) It was easy
for the Noble Lord to smile.—(Laughter.) It was ridi-
culous to expose himself in the insanity of a laugh.—
( Laughter.) Mr. Grattan went on lo say that be had
never abandoned his friends—he had never betrayed his
colleagues as some had—he would stand by the 10/. voters
to the last,--( Cheers.) A great deal had been raid about
the repeal of the Union ; nothing could so promote the
cause of repeal more than dealing with Ireland differently
from England. —( Hear.) The Noble Lord had in one
of his speeches contended for justice and equality to Ire-
land—how, after that, could he hold up this Bill—how
could he look any Irishman in the face ?—(Laughter.)
The Noble Lord had heard of the man who had lived all
his life in an iron mask—surely he must lire in a brazen
mask.—( Hear, and laughter.) The Hon. Member pro-
ceeded to declare that this Bill would violate the principle
of equality between England and Ireland, and it would
therefore secure the most strenuous opposition of the Irish
people.—( Cheers.)
Lord POWERSCOURT said he would not advert to
the mild and modest demeanour of the Hon. Member who
had just sat down, for it was always very remarkable in
him.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The brilliant, and to
his mind convincing, speech of the Noble Lord (Stanley)
had most triumphantly vin seated this Bill, and as the opi-
nions of Irish landowals had been called for he would
explicitly declare that they believed the Bill would tend to
the security of property and the peace of the country.—
(Cheers.) Equal justice was clamoured for to Ireland,
yet this Bill was opposed, which went to assimilate the
registrations of Ireland to that of England.—(" No, no,"
and cheers.) This showed the selfish nature of the
boasted patriotism of the Learned Member for Dublin,
and the shameless nature of the agitation with which he
was wont to cast dust in the eyes of his countrymen.—
(Hear, hear.) Fraud and perjury were unblushingly ex-
hibited in the elections of Ireland.—( Hear, and " No.")
He had forty-six cases before him, in which every particu-
lar was stated.--_(" Read.") Some had come under his
own notice.—(" Name.") The Noble Lord gave the
name of one. One of the chief merits of the Bill was
that it would indeed be a scorpion-sting to the Learned
Member for Dublin and his minions, by doing away with
those fraudulent votes which supported them.—( Cheers. )
Mr. C. WOOD said it was with great regret that after
the best consideration he could give to this measure, and
to the arguments which had been offered on the present
and on the former occasion, he found himself unable to

come to the conclusion that the House ought not to go
into Committee on,. this Bill.—(Tory cheers.) It was
with great regret We-found himself obliged to differ from
those persons with whom he had heretofore acted as to the
course which they followed with respect to this Bill.—
( Cheers.) He hoped that the difference would not be of
long duration.—(Hear, hear.) The greater part of the
arguments against the motion were directed against the
passing of the Bill, and if the question was that the Bill
should pass in its present state, he would, unhesitatingly,
give his vote against it. There were some restrictions
in it to which he could never give his con-
sent—(Hear, and cheers)—and he could never agree
to any Bill which would impose a restriction in the le-
gitimate registry.—(Great cheers from the Opposition.)
But the question before the House was not whether
this Bill should pass.—( Hear, hear.) Great and ac-
knowledged evils existed in Ireland. which no one on
either side of the House denied.—(Opposition cheers.)
A great number of voters, totally fictitious, stood upon
the registry, from which there was no mode of remov-
ing them, and every one who had spoken on that (the
Ministerial) side of the House, professed himself anxious
to remedy the evil.—( Hear.) Several measures to
remove it had been proposcd,when the Noble Lord the
Member for Lancashire having ascertained that it
was not the intention of her Majesty's Ministers to propose
another measure in the course of this Session, obtained
leave to bring in the present Bill. Now, after baying
sanctioned the principle of that Bill upon the second read-
ing, the House was now called upon to reject the motion
for going into Committee. That was a conclusion to which
he could not conscientiously come.—( Cheers from the
Opposition.) The first objection against it was, that it
contained no provision for determining the beneficial inte-
rests of the 10/. voter. Nx.v, on more occasions than one,
he had concurred with his Noble Friend the Secretary for
the Colonies in proposing eneoures for the registration
which contained no provision for determining the fran-
chise.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) His Noble Friend
himself had proposed one Bill for the registration and
another for the franchise, which showed clearly that the

tw3 subjects need not necessarily be mixed up in the one
Bill. lie was ready to vote with his Nob!e Friend for a
Bill which would settle the beneficial interests in the

franchise. He was afraid that he must admit that the in-

terpretntion put upon the beneficial interest by the Judges
in Ireland was according to law and reason—( Cheers
from the Tory benches)—hut he must say that it was
according to the framers of the Reform 13i11.—(Great
clieerinv.) The test in th, Raman Catholic Emancipa•
tins 13111, viz., the rent whieli a solvent tenant would pay,
was a clear te*t The Reform Bill was brought in with
that provision ; and unless the ohject was to increase the
franchise, he was not able to give any assignable ieuon
why those words were omitted.__( Opposition cheers.)
When the proposal was made in the flouse of Lords to
throw out those words by which the Judges were to
decide as to the beneficial interrsts, it was that those
words would have the effect of narrowing the franchise.
He was ready to admit that those words threw opcA the
door to fraud and perjury, and it might be considered whe-
ther it was possible to introduce a clause which would give
them a mare undefined meaning; but he would not admit

that the omission of such a clause in a Bill for the regis-
tration was a ground for refusing to go into Committee
upon that Bill. In comparing th Bill of the Noble Lord
opposite with the Bill which had been brought forward
on his (the Liberal) side of the House, he was compelled
to admit that their main provisions were the same.—
(Cheers from the Opposition.) The similarity was, at
least, sufficient to show that the prejudice which had been
raised against the present Bill was unjust, and that it
could not be said that the Bill was solely aimed at the de-
struction of the Irish constituency.—(Tory cheers.) If he
was told that this Bill would destroy the Liberal
codstituency in Ireland, he must believe that the
Hon. Member for Limerick, and the Hon. Member
for Waterford, the latter of whom was now a Lord of the
Treasury, had introduced Bills to destroy their own con-
stituencies. He must believe that the Law Officers of the
Crown in Ireland introduced measures for a similar pur-
pose. He did not believe that they could be so igno-
rant or so inattentive to their own interests.—(Cheers and
laughter.) Therefore he did not believe that this Bill
originated in:the astute ingenuity of the Noble Lord op-
posite with no other object than to destroy the Liberal
constituency of Ireland.—( Tory cheers.) That there were
objectionable clauses in the Bill he admitted, but he
thought they were no more than were commonly altered in
Committee. The difficulties with respect to distance
could be altered in Committee—the objections taken as to
costs could be removed so far as they were tenable. But
be did not understand the objection to giving costs in cases
of frivolous claims. But whatever was vexatious
in those clauses might be removed in the Committee.
With respect to the appeal to the Judges, it was difficult
to give an opinion, It had been the law since the passing
of the Catholic Emancipation Bill, and although it was
not introduced in the last Bill proposed by Government
for the amendment of the registration, Mr. Woulfe stated
that it would be even better than the measure which he
introduced.—( Cheers from the Opposition.) The last
objection was to the annual registration. Now bethought
that where so much pains were taken in the first instance,
to ascertain the validity of the claim, and that no person
should be placed unduly on the registry, there ought to be
some protection to the voter, and whatever objections were
to be made ought to be objections that had occurred since
the registry, and not before. Those provisions were con-
stantly made in Bills, and by those clauses not only would
the Bill be assimilated to those that had been introduced,
but would not be inconsistent with that Bill which his
Noble Friend (Lord John Russell) had stated the
other night he intended to introduce for the
English constituencies.—( Hear, hear, hoar.) Every
argument appeared to him in favour of going into Com-
mittee upon the Bill, and the only arguments that had
been urged were against its passing in its present shape.
He knew that he might be open to objection that, not-
withstanding he entertained those opinions, he had voted
against the second reading. At the time of voting against
the second reading he had not carefully inquired into the
provisions of the Bill.—( Hear, bear.) When he came
down to the House his Noble Friend the Secretary for
Ireland told him he intended to vote against the Bill. He
bad the greatest confidence in the Noble Lord's Adminis-
tration—his Administration had been no less honourable
to him than beneficial to Ireland, and without inquiring in-
to the matter be admitted he did vote against
the second reading, but being called on to reverse
a previous decision, he thought it behoved every Member
of the House, as well as himself, carefully to consider the
ground on which he should give his vote.—( Hear, hear.)
The consideration he had given to the subject left no
doubt on his mind as to the course he ought to pursue.—
( Hear, hear.) Before he sat down he must say that, in
voting for going into Committee, he did so utterly uncom-
mitted as to the vote be should give upon any of the
clauses. He would go into Committee with a fixed deter-
mination to vote against any clause that might appear re-
strictive of the right of franchise in Ireland. The prin-
ciples he professed, and upon which he had always acted,
would lead him to an extension and not to a restriction of
the franchise, but of this he felt assured, that if the House
did not go into Committee, a !age minority would sup-
port his Noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies in
making such alterations as would carry out his general
views on the subject of the franchise, and in which he en-
tirely concurred. In whatever shape the Bill might come
out of the Committee, it would remain for con-
sideration bow they should vote on the third
reading, and if it then appeared that any clauses
of a restrictive nature were in the Bill. be should
vote against the third reading, and would be ready
to pay the greatest deference to the opinions of Irish Alern-
hers and the wishes of the Irish people. He could not be
insensible to the opinions which the Irish people had ex-
pressed as to the passing of the measure in its present shape,
ant he must have: more confidence in his own judgment
hcfore he would be willing to force on the people of Ire-
lrnd a Bill that was in their opinion prejudicial to their
interests.
Mr. MORGAN JOHN O'CONNELL had listened
with great regret to the speech of the Hon. Gentleman
who had just sat down, and he would ask that Hon. Gen-
tleman and those who intended to vote for the Bill to con-
sider this Bill the case of their own constituents. He
very much doubted if the Bill was applicable in 'Jellies,
the Hoe. Member would have dealt with it with so much
courtesy. He would ask English Gentlemen whether
their constituents would have submitted to a Bill of such
wholesale disfranchisement ?—(" Hear," and cheering.)
Then he supposed the costa were a mere trifle—a
thing not worthy of striking out of the Bill. Be it so.
May be it was a new principle of disfranchisement. To
what part of the country should it be applied first? That
where the franchise was already miserably limited, as com-
pared with England and Scotland.—( Hear, hear.) He
had no faith in their intention in coming forward and ap-
plying this measure first to Ireland. There they first
practised all their experiments of restrictions to be im-
posed. He wished, instead of doing so, they would there
make the first experiments of benefit to be granted.—
( Cheers.) The Noble Lord the Member for Bath
spoke much of the English Gentlemen who represented
Ireland, but the Noble Lord had forgotten the glass-houses
on his own side. He brought forward the old worn-out
cry of delusion on the public mind. Was there ever a
greater delusion than to talk of this Bill as an assimilation
to England.—( Hear, bear.) It was an assimilation of
everything they were desirous of getting: rid of, but left
all the difficulties of the old system just as they were.—
( Hear, hear.) Then there was another delusion at-
tempted to be practised with regard to the pledge
given by the Noble Lord, to assimilate the law,
which was only given if the English system should
he found less expensive and less burdensome, and to serve
the object in view.—( Cheers.) His intention was to try
a system
te in both
for
measurecountries,
the common benefit of both.
and from the experience of
each
produce
a
Cheers.) Some Hon. Members opposite cheered him,
but no English Member did so. He doubted if this measure
had been brought in by the Hon. Member for Liverpool th
even his popularity would ensure it a favourable reception.
They dared not extend such a Bill to England, and they
knew it—(Cheers)—and to those who talked to them in
that manner—those whe talked of the repeal of the Union—
did they cry out against those who wished to see the do-
mestic Parliament of Ireland restored ?—( Hear. hear.)
The Noble Lord (Stanley) came to Ireland in
1830 ; the Repeal cry was then a faint one.—( Hear.)
The Noble Lord governed Ireland until 1833, but in
that time it had risen to such a height that Ireland re-
quired, according to the opinion of Hon. Gentlemen, a
Coercion Bill. The Noble Lord had produced many
cases ; but no matter what they were, by their misrepre-
sentations they only gave strength to the repeal feeling,
and, be was afraid, to a feeling something beyond repeal,
which no other course could possibly give. The Hon.
Member for the University of Dublin had also quoted cases,
and he ( Mr. M. J. O'Connell) would read a short extract
In 1838 a Committee sat on these subjects, and not a single
case of the nature alluded to was produced before the
Committee.—(Cheers.) It was from the evidence of Mr.
Thomas Courtenay, now the prospective Secretary of the
embryo Junior Carlton Club. He produced a lease made
by A. Lefroy to one Cunningham—the leases had all the
same covenants—and one of them was giving the landlord the
power of determining the lease on giving six months
notice of his desire to do so.—(Cheers.) No ejectment
was served on that man, but one was served on a person
named Byrne, who held a similar lease. One Thomas
Byrne voted against his landlord, and witness was asked
if this was the person on whom the notice was served,
and the answer was—l take it to be so. And then in an-
swer to question 12,903, witness stated the covenants
were introduced for the protection of the tenantry that they
might have an excuse to those who urged them to vote
against the wishes of the landlords and their own wishes,—
These were then righteous men who turned up their eyes
with horror at Popery, and priestcraft.—(Cheers.) When
the Hon. Baronet (Sir George Sinclair) made his next
prepared impromptu speech in the House, and placed his
hat upon'the table, and looked very frequently into it in the
course of his speech, so much so, that they looked at it
until they realised the conception of the poet—
And still they gazed, and still the wonder grew,
That one small hat should carry all he knew •
and when the Hun. Member, talked of perjury and subor-
nation of perjury, he hoped the Hon. Member would not
direct his attention to those only who sat on that (the Mi-
nisterial) side of the House. The evident object of the
Bill was to limit the franchise in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.)
Had they forgotten the memorable letter of the Secretary
of the Cork Conservative Association. That Gentleman
bore the appropriate name of Nettles; and it would seem
that nettles could sting as well as scorpions in Ire-
land. —(oh, oh I and cheers.) The gentleman in ques-
tion admitted that the only chance of the Conservative
•
party in the county Cork, lay in the landlords preventing
their tenants from voting. He would now call on the and to act
House to deal with the measure as it merited,
towards Ireland as they would have done towards England.
If they did so, they would do much to restore good
feeling
between differentg
between the two countries ; but if they pursue
course, they should attribute to themselves the crime and
misery which would follow.—( Cheers. )
Colonel CONOLLY commenced by observing that
Hon. Members frequently alluded to the dissensions which
butwhich
prevailed between landlords and tenants in Ireland,
'
he had said over and over again, that those dissen.
sions arose from the intervention
of
agitators,
for their
who
obliged the landlords to exercise their rightsthe own protection—( Hear, hear)—and prevent
te-
nant
from submitting to that tyranny and intimidation
with which be was constantly overborne •—( Hear, hear.)
The) should not therefore condemn the landlords, who
• r6nical
were obliged to act in their own defence.—(lronical
cheers.) No measure, he believed, ever discussed in the
as
that which was
douse, was so grossly misrepresented
thin under discussion. The people
of Ireland were
me sure, while its
-'nd to carry cut
told that it was a disfranchising
11
only object was to assist the voter,
was said that the
honestly the law.—(Bear, hear.) It
proposed Bill leould limit the real constituency of Ireland,
but it might as well be said that the prevention of the cir-
He would
ciliation of base coin limited the currency.i
Bill tee same
call on the House to extend by the —.•
and systemScot-
to Ireland as that already enjoyed by England
be allowed
Scot-
land. Let not the Hon. Member for Dublin
had
been ot career property in the Irish constituencies, as_hleci
been the case on a former occasion in the county of Ki - '
dare. Let not the voice of the gentry of Ireland be
stifled by the importation of strangers, as had happened in
the county of Carlsw, in which propertywas unrepresented

and in which everything might ha said to be carries: .seainst
the good sense of the commuits.—( Cries of " Divide.")
He was well aware of the result of the wholesale system
of manufacturing voters in Ireland, and he would not
consent to follo at the intepretation of the franchise which
had been given by one or two of the Judges in opposi-
tion to the other ten, and by 3arristers who had been
made for the purpose of promoting agitation and sup-
porting a feeble and erroneous Administration. He denied
that Ireland was hostile to the Bill of the Noble Lord.
From every part of the county which he had the
honour to represent, petitions had been presented in its
favour, and for those reasons he should give the measure his
decided support.
Mr. PIGOT and Lord Howick rose together, but al-
though there were loud calls for the Noble Lord he gave way.
The Hon. and Learned Member said, if any doubt existed be-
fore the speech of the Hon. and Gallant Member who had just
sat down, as to what was the real object of the Bill, that speech
would read the House a moral upon the lesson it presented.—
( Hear.) It was in complete accordance with what had fallen
from the Noble Lord the author of the Bill when moving its
second reading, and it did appear to be the design of those who
supported the Bill that it should be made the instrument of ac-
complishing those purposes to which the Hon. Member who
had just sat down had adverted. He was not surprised at the
sense of hostility which had been expressed against the
measure in Ireland, and he believed that the speeches
and arguments which had been urged since the se-
cond reading of the Bill, would furnish sufficient
grounds to many who had supported that motion to
Tote against its further progress. He (Mr. Pigot) objected
to it, because it contained the principle to which the Hon.
Member for Halifax had adverted, and for that very reason it
was that he would never consent to the passing ofthe measure.
It proposed, under the name of re-registration,which was in fact
re-investigation, again and again to subject the voter to the proof
of the same facts that had been already proved before the same
party, until he was wearied out in the useless and expensive
straggle. That was the vice which induced him (Mr. Pig-
gott) to oppose the measure—that was the vice which had in-
duced him to oppose it on the second reading ; and it was that
vice which would justify every man who entertained the same
opinions, to take every possible means which well regulated and
properly conducted opposition in that House could afford him
of preventing the passing of the Bill into law.—
(Hear, hear.) The term annual registratioa had been ban-
died about from one party to the other as if it admitted
of the most varied meaning. The Noble Lord said that the
Bill of Mr. O'Loghlin provided for annual registration, and so
did his measure—that Mr. O'Loghlin's Bill gave a double ap-
peal, and so did his. He begged to tell the Noble Lord that
these words as referred to the two Bills had perfectly distinct
meanings, and that to use them in the same sense was a mere
fallacio verborum, a mere quibbling argument.—( Hear, hear. )
He (Mr. Pinot) was perfectly ready to admit the existence of
defects in the present mode of registration, and that they re-
quired amendment. The Noble Lord also referred to the sub-
ject of certificates, and he (Mr. Pigot) was perfectly ready to
introduce a measure to remove the objections which at present
existed as to certificates.—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition
benches.) The Noble Lord would recollect that the measure
of 1829 was that on which the subject of certificates was first
proposed, in order to establish at all times the identity of the
party. In England the voter made no affidavit, while in Ire-
land he could take no step for the establishment of his franchise,
without an oath, and these affidavits were entered in the records
of the country, and ondorced upon the copy of the certificate ;
and might be afterwards produced in evidence against him in
the House of Commons. He admitted that abuses might have
existed, and he was ready to sanction the introduction of a
measure to put an end to them.—(Hear, and cheers.) The
Noble Lord (J. Russell) had last night stated that such a
measure was in contemplation, but it was right that the whole
should come before Parliament together, so that its provisions
might be fully considered. The object of the measure to be
introduced by the Noble Secretary for the Colonies was to
remedy the very defects complained of.—(lronical cheers
from the Opposition.) This Bill, however, of the Noble
Lord's opposite would act, not to strike off the poll fraudulent
and fictitious votes, but tc. bring the voters again and again
before the examining tribunal, and to carry them from Court
to Court, through decision after decision.—( Hear.) What
reason could be assigned for such repeated re-investigation
of the franchise ?—( Hear, hear.) What description of pro-
perty—what other kind of right—was subject to such reitesated
scrutiny 2—( Hear.) This was not revision, it was re-investi-
gation, with a view to destruction and disfranchisement.—
( Hear, hear.) That was the vice of the measure ; and there-
fore it was he (the Solicitor-General for Ireland) must oppose
it. He again asked, what could be the object of such repeated
re-investigations? He would look to ali tha analogies of other
institutions. When a case, which might decide a question of
20,0001. or 100,0001, had been settled in the Court of Chan-
cery, on the rehearing or on the appeal, was new evidence per-
mitted ? Certainly not. Did the Court of Queen's Bench, in
reviewing a case, let in fresh evidence ? No. On what ground
was this principle based? On the prevention of all temptation
to fraudulent concoction of evidence to meet the exigencies of
a case. The pretext of this Bill was to prevent fraud and
perjury, yet it gave those repeated re-investigations
which were specially awarded in institutions affecting
life, liberty, and property—to preclude the getting up
of evidence to slit the purposes of parties, and the
necessities discovered, or the defects found out, in the
progress of the case.—(Hear, hear.) On this principle, too,
witnessss were in Chancery not examinable if they had seen
or heard the previous evidence. The object evidently was to
prevent collusion and fraud; what a door for which the Noble
Lord's Bill, with its repeated investigations, opened !—(Hear,
hear.) The Noble Lord, indeed, at one time was partly sen-
sible of opening such a door.— [Thu Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman here quoted a passage from a speech of Lord Stanley's
to that effect, which was received with loud cheers.] Now he
(Mr. Pigot) supported the Bill to be brought in by his Noble
Friend, the Secretary for the Colonies, therefore he objected
to this Bill of the Noble Lord.—( Loud ironical cheers from the
Opposition.) The vestir, the appeal in the Judge of Assize,
appeared to be highly Ajectionable.—(Hear, hear.) He
feared that the appeal would be to create suspicion and dis-
trust of the administration of justice in Ireland.—( Hear. ) He
would here recall the attention of the House to the cir-
cumstance, that the Learned Member for Coleraine,
in animadverting on what he thought the erroneous opinions of
some of the Irish Judges on a disputed point of election law,
could not avoid mentioning, in harsh terms, one or two by
name. He should not now vindicate the character of Baron
Richards from the attacks of the lion. and Learned Member
for Coleraine—( Cheers)—he should not now detail his career at
the bar, or allude to his eminence on the Bench. He would
not condescend to defend that eminent and upright Judge
against the attacks of the Hon. and Learned Member for Cole-
raine.—(Loud cheers.) But if, in the course of that debate,
in merely discussing the subject of that Bill even in the House
of Commons, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had found it
impossible to restrain his feelings—(Loud cheers)—what, he
would ask, must be the result if they established in every town
in Ireland in which the Judge should appear to exercise the
functions of his office, s Court of a political character—(Loud
cheers)—in which individuals should have constantly to appear
to litigate the claim to the franchise, in which in-
dividuals would constantly be complaining of unfair deci-
sions, and of political bias ? What must be the effect of the
establishment of such a Court in a country like Ireland?— (Loud
cheers.) He would not enter into details at that late hour, of
the effect likely to be produced by such a change. There was
no analogy between the present system and the one proposed
by the Bill of the Noble Lord. The object of the Right Hon.
Baronet in giving the appeal to the Judges was the protection
of the franchise. The Right Hon. Baronet had introduced
two Bills, which were each a part of one great measure. The
one was for Catholic Emancipation—the other was for the dis-
franchisement of the forty-shilling freeholders; by that measure
no less than 190,000 persons had been disfranchised. The
Right Hon. Baronet had said that that measure was a stringent
one, and that he would give the investigation of those cases to
the Assistant-Barristers, who were nominated by the Crown—
but he felt that there might be some hardship in giving the de-
cision to the Assistant-Barristers without appeal, and therefore
he had given an appeal to the Judges as to the law, and to the
Jury as to the fact.—(Hear, hear.) This had been given by
way of protection to the franchise, and what had been the effect?
Why up to 18.36 the number of appeals to the Judges had not
amounted to seven hundred—but the object of the Noble Lord
was that these appeals should be brought year after year by
thousands before the Judges.—(Cheers.) He would not de-
tain the House at that late hour by stating any farther argu-
ments, but being satisfied that the Bill of the Noble Lord was
not calculated to remedy the evils of the registration system of
Ireland, which he did not attempt to deny—(Cheers)—and
being moreover of opinion that it would be impossible to model
that Bill in Committee so as to produce those objects, he
should certainly vote against it. —( Loud cheers.)
Lord HOWICK would not have spoken at all after the
great length to which the debate hail run, had he not felt him-
self under the painful necessity of voting against those with
whom he usually acted in that House.—(Loud Tory cheers.)
Under these circumstances he felt it impossible to give his vete
without explaining the grounds on which he felt himself
called on to do so, more particularly after the speech of the
Gallant Colonel opposite, as although he should vote
in this division with that Gallant Gentleman, he should do so
with totally different objects, and on totally different principles.
—(Cheers.) He had voted, much against his feelings, against
the second reading of the Bill. He admitted he had given that
vote with great reluctance, although he agreed with his Noble
Friend, the Secretary for the Colonies, that the Bill in its pre-
sent state ought not to pass. Ho was the more concerned at
differing from his friends on the present occasion, because he
nas always anxious to support the Government of which his
Noble Friend was the organ in that House, more particularly
on questions of Irish policy, especially as long as his Noble
Friend, the Member for Yorkshire, was connected with the
Irish Government, as he had the greatest confidence in that
Noble Lord, and also in his Noble Friend, Lord Ebrington.—
(Cheers.) Agreeing, as he did, that the Bill, in its
present state, ought not to pass, he thought he had
not gone beyond that sacrifice of personal opinion to others
which every Member of Parliament must make who wished to
obtain a great object in voting for the second reading, although
he then entertained the opinion, and had expressed it to some
Members of the Government, that the Government was pursu-
ing a most impolitic course, in opposing the second rea'iing of
the Bill.—( Hear, hear.) But they were now called upon to
express an opinion upon totally different grounds. Not only
were they called upon to say that this Bill should not go into
Committee, but they were called upon to reverse a decision to
which the House had previously come.—(Loud Tory cheers.
Now it was extremely inconvenient, to say the least of it, for
that House to reverse a vote which it had shortly before come
to. That it might sometimes happen that in a thin House a
vote might be come to, which, on a more numerous attendance
of Members, it might be necessary to set aside, or that some-
times, as was the case with the Malt-tax, a decision might be
come to in a fuller Mouse, which, on mose mature deliberation
and fuller discussion, it might be desirable to reverse, he would
not deny. But neither was the case on the present question.
—(Cheers.) The subject had been discussed in a full Hociuse,
and the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland, the Solitor-
General for Ireland, and many other Gentlemen, had ex-
pressed with great ability and acuteness the objections which
they had to urge against the Bill. It could not, therefore, be
said that the House had been taken by surprise in the decision
which they had come to, and that decision ought not to be
lightly set aside, because it was impossible that that House
could reverse a vote to which they had come only a few days
before, without suffering in public estimation. It would be
making a confession either of want of due consideration in the
performance of their duty, or of great fickleness, either of
which would be calculated to lower the House in the eyes of the
country ; and he would say that at all times, more particularly
in the present, the House could not afford to take a course
which would have the effect of lowering them in public opi-
nion, or of diminishing the confidence and respect which was
entertained for them. If he was right in contending that the
House had no right to reYerse a decision which they had lately
adopted, unless grounds of great public inconvenience should
arise from their adhering to their previous decision, he would
ask what amount of pubhc inconvenience could arise in the pre-
sent case ; and after the argument of s llon. Friend
that all the objections to this Bill NI ere againhist its details and
not its principles, he had listened with great anxiety to the
Hon. Solicitor-General for Irelind, in hopes of learning how it
was intended to meet that argument. But what had the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman said? He had not objected to the principle—h 2 had not said that the present state of the regis.
tration in Ireland was satisfactory—he had not denied the evils
which existed—all Le had stated was, that it was l.is intention
to introduce a measure to remedy those evils.—(Cheers.) But
he (Lord Howick) could not help alluding to what was said by
his Noble Friend opposite, last night, that the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had somewhat late in the day undertaken that task, ,

. . a-el he cool.? not feel any great confidence diet that 1:
was brought in at that period of the Session—a Bill which, if
he understood that Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman pro-
perly, was not yet in existence, in framing the provisions of
which he was at that hour occupied—he could not hope, looking
at the state of parties, that it was possible for it to be passed
that Session.—(Loud cheers.) The next objection made by
the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman to the Bill was that an
annual revision was the principle of the Bill ; and immediately
he entered into an argument in which he attempted to draw the
difference between an annual revision and a renewed investi-
gation of the vote. He (Lord H.) entirely agreed with the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman that a renewed investigation
would be a crying evil, but, he would ask, was that the prin-
ciple of the Bill ?—( Hear, and Tory cheers.) Undoubtedly
as the clause at present stood—(Ministerial cheers)—it pro-
vided for renewed investigation—(Cheers)—but it did not re-
quire the acuteness or the learning of the Hon. and Learned
Gentlemen to draw up an amendment consisting of three lines,
entirely to remedy that evil.—(Cheers.) He had not had a
professional education, but he had no doubt that in as many lines
he could bring the Bill into strict conformity with the principle
laid down by his Noble Friend, the Secretary for the Colonies.
But so little was that the principle of the Bill, as had been
well remarked by his Hon. Friend near him (Mr. Wood), that
his Noble Friend opposite, (Lord Stanley) had stated
that he had himself deliberated whether there should be re-
newed investigation or an annual revision. The decision which
would be come to in Committee, would not be that of his Noble
Friend, but of the House—(Cheers)—and he begged to call
the attention of the House to the temperate and able speech of
the Hon. Baronet the Member for Drogheda, of last night,
wherein they were told that even the Tory party of Drogheda,
although acting upon a misunderstanding of the Bill in support-
ing it, would be the first to oppose it, if an annual inves-
tigation were the principle of the Bill. He could not but help
thinking that when in Committee a very large number of
Members on both sides of the House would support this prin-
ciple, that when a man's vote was once scrutinized it should
not be liable to scrutiny again, except upon some new ob-
jection that had arisen subsequently. He had no doubt that
an amendment of that kind would be supported from either
side of the House, and it would remove the most serious objec-
tion to the Bill.—( Hear.) He could not help saying that he could
not attach any great respect to those voters that refused to un-
dergo some degree of trouble and sacrifice of time, in order to
establish his vote in one instance. ['here were other objections
to the Bill, but they were all of the same character in detail.
Some objected to the appeal to the Judges. Upon that subject
there was much to be said on both sides, but in Committee it
might be possible to select some tribunal which would better
attain the object.—(Cheers.) As one Member who had had
the misfortune to sit upon an Irish Election Committee, he
would say that justice to Ireland required that some Court of
Appeal should be created-( Hear, hear, hear)—for Gentle-
men who voted against the opening of the registry,
well knew that in doing so they were maintaining those
upon the registry who had got there by an abuse
of the law, while, on the other hind, if they did open
the registry, they were throwing the representation into the
hands of those who had the longest purse.—(Cheers.) That
was a great evil, which would be corrected by the Bill of his
Noble Friend. The subject had been so largely debated, that
at that late Lour of the night he would not enter into details.
—(Cheers.) He would only observe, that the only two pro-
visions rested upon by the Solicitor-General for Ireland, had
already been shown to be objections not of principle but of de-
tail. But there was one other subject connected with the debate,
upon which he must take the liberty of offering some remarks.
He could not think it was contended fur by those who sat on
his (the Ministerial) side of the House; but undoubtedly lan-
guage had been held which might be considered to bear the
meaning that they were not to support the Bill, because a sub-
stantial tribunal—one which would rigidly search and scruti-
nise the register, would narrow the franchise in Ireland.
He repeated, that he could not believe that it was
the intention of any Hon. Gentleman on his side of the House
to contend for that principle ; but if not, what was the use of
making those comparisons between the relative number of
voters and population between the counties in Ireland and
England. Ile was not going to point out the obvious diffe-
rence between the state of Ireland and England, but he would
merely state that so long as there was any property qualifica-
tion whatever, no county in Ireland would ever compare
as to the number of voters—could even approach to
the most wealthy and industrious county of England.
No man in the House would regret more deeply than himself
the diminution of the number of voters in Ireland. He ap-
pealed for the truth of that assertion to his conduct in office
and out of office. He adhered to the opinion which he had
expressed when the Irish Church Bill was under discussion,
and he would say that nothing could give him greater pain
than that the representation of Ireland should fall into the
hands of persons who were opposed to the great majority of the
people.—(Hear, hear.) That was a misfortune which he
would use every means of averting.—( Hear.) But it was not
because he wished to see the franchise enlarged, according to
the intentions of those who framed the Reform Bill, rather than
narrowed, according to the interpretation which he feared must
legally be put upon the words of that Act —( Hear, hear.)
He believed that in all civilized countries it was acknowledged
to be the most important principle that the law should be
maintained, and he thought that misgovernment would not be
so fatal a thing if it was not for its effects in injuring
the character of those who suffered under it so
far that they come to think that all means of evading the
law, or setting it aside, were justifiable. He thought that the
mode in which the law had been administered in Ireland had
diminished the respect for the sanctity of an oath in the minds
of people of both sides.—( Hear, hear, and cries of " Divide.")
The only answer which had been made to the charge of per-
jury on the other side was, " that you are as bad as we are."
—( Cries of " Divide," and " Order, order.") He had no
doubt that those evils werechargeable upon both sides, and he
was only anxious that some measure should be adopted to
remedy them. The measure of his Noble Friend might have
the effect of still more narrowing the constituency, which he
would regret—but he would not risk the future welfare of
Ireland for the sake of preserving the present constituency.—
( Hear, hear) He would not keep up the present imper-
fect system for the sake of returning the present popular
representatives. He would greatly deprecate that the senti-
ments of the people should be borne down by a small minority.
But let not the House, for the sake of temporary convenience,
sacrifice a great principle of truth and justice.—(Cheers.) Let
them take a fair and manly course, and although, perhaps, in
the first instance they might be defeated, success and triumph
would ultimately be theirs.—( Hear, hear.) It was his convic-
tion that the present mode of registration had a tendency to
demoralise the people, and he was impressed with the necessity
ol some remedy. He was of opinion that the House ought not
to concur in the amendment, but ought to allow the Bill to be
fairly discussed in the Committee.
Mr. GISBORNE rose amidst loud cries of " Divide, di-
vide." He assured the House that he had very little disposi-
tion to debate this subject after the discussion which it had
already undergone. But it had been said to him, by many upon
that ( the Liberal) side of the House, that he ought to say
something, as it had happened that on two or three occasions he
had been alluded to by Gentlemen on the opposite side. He
had been ask, d why he, as an alien to Ireland, should represent
an Irish constituency. And he had been asked whether he
did not think it fit that the resident gentry should represent
Ireland ? Now to that he answered, yes,—( Cheers.) But
he asked had they an indefeasible right to represent
the people if they did not represent their feelings and inte-
rests?- (Cheers.) If the resident gentry represented the feel-
ings and interests of the people, he would have had no chance
when lie stood against his opponent.--( Cheers.) If that had
been the case, he would not have had to stand before a Com-
mittee of the House for seventy-two days, with an array of the
majority of the Magistrates of the county against him.—
( Cheers, and a laugh.) He would not have troubled the
House at all on the present occasion if he had not been forced
to it; and he shouid merely state his reasons for voting against
the Committee. It was nothing to tell him that the provisions
of the Bill were to be found in Bills which had been been
brought in for the purpose of amending the present system.
He objected most strongly to annual revision. There were
many Gentlemen on the other side of the House whose talents
he admired, and who no doubt were in expectation of having
a seat on the bench, but to whom, as an elector, he should be
sorry to submit to their decision his right of voting.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL felt as highly for the cha-
racter of that House as any man in it, and he was as desirous
that its character for consistency should stand high in the coun-
try as the Noble Lord the Member for Northumberland could
wish, but he thought its character for consistency would be
best maintained by the House not going into Committee.—
( Cheers.) The clauses of the Bill to which the Noble Lord had
referred were a fair sample of the whole, and the principle of the
Bill might be collected from those clauses, which principle was
to offer opposition to the establishment of the elective franchise.
—( Hear, hear.) The country had been waiting for some time
in the expectation of measures which would carry the Reform
Bill into more perfect effect, but the House was now asked to
go into Committee for the purpose of seeing how much they
could cripple it.—(Cheers.) He firmly believed that when
the true character of the Bill was understood in the country,
that the greatest disapprobation and regret would be felt that
the House should show such a disposition to tamper with the
Reform Bill.—( Hear, hear.) If they went into Committee
spun it, they would be engaged in a conflict upon each of the
clauses, as to whether those clauses should be so framed as to
carry into effect the original object and tendency of the Bill,
namely, to impose difficulties'on the elective franchise. It had
been said objections had merely been made to the details of the
Bill. He knew not how to discover the principle except
by examining its details—( Hear, hear)—and from the general
tendency, scope, and object of the Bill, he inferred the principle
of it ; and he must say, that any man who did not mean to
impair the efficiency of the Reform Bill, could not consistently
go into Committee upon it.—( Cheers.) It had been said that
until this debate no complaints were heard of the annual regis-
tration. It was extraordinary that so different a state of
things should exist in the same country. He had heard no-
thing but complaints of the unnecessary annoyance and con-
stant vexation and trouble imposed on electors by the
annual registration.—( Cries of" Hear, hear," and cheers.) The
county had been expecting measures om ie Government.—
( Hear, hear, from Mr. Hume, and loud cheers on the Opposi-
tion bench( s.) The country had been desirous to have
measures from the Government—( Continued cheering )—and
except for Hon. Gentlemen opposite, some measure would
have been carried.--(lronical cheers.) Some Bills had been
prepared.--(Laughter.) He had been afraid that at that hour
he would have been tedious, but he would be agreably dis-
appointed if he contributed to Honourable Gentlemen's
amusement. This Bill was curious. The Noble Lord had
stated that he had prepared his Bill upon the mcdel of
a Bill of the Houournble and Learned Member for Dublin,
That Bill went up to the House of Lords, hut was rejected with
very little ceremony. The Earl of Wicklow then stated that
the present system worked admirably.—(Laughter, ate! cries
of " Hear, hear.") He believed that no Hon. Member
doubted that nothing prevented the Bill being presented and
carried forward but the distinct enderstandine that any Bill
which did not impair the efficiency of the Reforramßill would not
be suffered to pass into a law—(Cheers)—and he much
feared the Noble Lord's Bill would have no recommendation
to that House unless it was supposed to have that effect.--
(Hear.) It was true, therefore, they ought to go into Com-
mittee and make alterations, but the effect would be the same
unless they altered the principle of the Bill. It was curious
that this Bill could have no chance of meeting the concurrence of
the House, and that now they had to decide whether they would ge
into Committee and maintain the conflict—whether the Reform
Bill should be impaired or not under the form of an amended
registration. Their arguments had been misrepresented by the
other side. It was said while they admitted the evils they de-
sired to perpetuate them, and that the Government had no de-
sire to amend them, because they would not do so at the ex-
pense of impairing the Reform Bill.—(Loud cheering.)
Was there any one who would come forward and propose the
repeal of the Reform Bill ? No one had the courage to
do that, but they were quite prepared to diminish its efficiency
by amendments.—(Cheers.) What this country had to fear
was, that the party who considered themselves to have lost
power by ..he Reform Bill, should seek by amendments to im-
pair its efficiency. He asked if it was not admitted there was
a difficulty in establishing the right of voting in England ? If
so, what would be the effect of a measure that increased that
difficulty? An Hon. Gentleman asked would any man pro-
pose to adopt such a measure in England ? He repeated the
question. When the Reform Bill passed, they had no inioczl
by which to frame their system of registration. In Ireland
th.,
arrangement was adopted, but it was stated by
Noble Lord that it was not to be permletntsshobuukti
that, if the experiment was successf.rl here, _ _
say
to
the
be applied to Ireland. With great respect he would .rys
nowl
Noble Lord, that what had failed in England, he. a
t
seeking to apply to Ireland, and to aPIY
aggrava-
tion.—(Cheers.) If, therefore, the act itw wasitthhagtnt'haeywanted

to assildiat, lee of the 'wo couniries, teey would be
scarcely thanked for it ; but the truth was, that it was no such
thing.—( Cheers.) They would give to 'reined the most de-
fective part of the English system, and no more, as would be
found by any one who would examine the clauses of the Bill.
The Honourable and Learned Member then enumerated the
several clauses of the Bill, as illustrating his statement.
He would suppose that the Revising-Barrister had the power
of removing from one place to another ; but it appeared to him
that the power of making objections generally to the voters_
must produce considerable inconvenience, by the necessity bef of
their attending the Barrister's Court, and that power would
much increased if the Barrister had the power of adjournment
from one place to another. Whoever considered the mattet,
attentively must see, that if every vote was open to objection
year after year, it must be attended with considerable expense
and inconvenience. The 501. freeholders, who could bette..
afford the expense, were exempted from these inconveniences.
To add to the objectionable character of the regulation, the
same conflict might be found necessary year after year,
until the poor and independent elector was
pletely wearied out in the struggle.—(Hear, hear.)
Hon. Gentleman asked did they object to purify the Registry
list? By no means. But let them take care that in doing
that they did not exclude many bona fide votes, because every
objection that could be urged against fictitious votes might.n
urged against good votes. What, he would ask, was the objecte
of registration ? They could not concede Universal Suffrage,
and therefore they had the elective franchise, which pre isomo.
a test, which it was conceived might safely be relied
all,Property a
as
a test,
ewasst .
itperhaps
as the
imperfect.be s t ht at
was c lvde
very
ye
insecuredevised, but afterbte...
sides, and was no guarantee of the qualification of the P,3•FI
who might be deemed eligible to exercise the elective franchise.
The Learned Gentleman proceeded to say that he did not think
the Government had taken the most proper course on the Bill
before them, and for other measures. He thought that the
Government should have sent up good Bills to the House
Lords, and left to them the responsibility of rejecting them'
He did not by that mean any disrespect to the House of 'Are:.
,
—(lronical cheers from the Opposition benches.) Having
called the attention of the House to what he thought was objec-
tionable in the Bill of the Noble Lord, and, believing that if tl?t 1
went into Committee the conflict would still be one of prin-
ciple, he should vote for the amendment of the Hon. Baronet
the Member for Drogheda.
j o uArinre. d Ht
o
UtbMisEdaty (Wednesday).henmovedthat the debate should be ad-
Strangers were ordered to withdraw, but were soma re-
admitted, when we heard
Sir R. PEEL saying he wondered the adjournment of the
earlier
debate should be moved when, for several hours in the
part of the evening, the House was very thin.—(Hear, hear')
The subject was quite exhausted.—(Hear.) vote
Lord J. RUSSELL—AII I can say is that I shall
against adjournment.—( Hear.)
net
Mr. O'CONNELL—It is true as the Right Hon. Bar
said, the House was very thin for some time, but many Merehe
spoke, and several remained anxious to speak.—( Go on, IP en'
)
I really must press the adjournment.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the Adjournment 127
Against it
Majority
On our entrance, we found
Lord INGESTRIE saying he wanted to know from the
t
Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies haw long the 51ste
of moving adjournments was to last ? If it was to go e° he
gave notice that he would prevent any of the Government ee
siness from going on at other times.
Lord J. RUSSELL—The Noble Lord asks me how long till°
ved
system is to go on, and chooses to presume that those who me •
the adjournments are acting under my control.—( Hear, heatr“
I shall tell the Noble Lord that if those who had made Id
motions of adjournment were always under my control I svou.
have taken care that during the last Session we would nots
have so repeated adjournments moved upon a Bill which
v:a
introduced by an influential member of the Government, the
Chancellor of the Exchequer. It was a course taken to ob-
struct a Bill introduced and supported by the Governrnent,tooauk.
it seems that parties, nit very different from those wh,°, ,
that course, had taken the same means to oppose the Bill Lord
duced by the Noble Lord. I beg to state to the I beg
that I was no party to that motion—( Loud cheers.)
state, Sir, that I do not approve of them, but having been
able to prevent such motions being made with respect to
.11";
moved by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and supported
spa
the whole Government, the Noble Lord has no right--(Le
cheers)—to accuse me of permitting those motions of aejouerno_":
ment by those who I have no doubt are acting under &vs Noble
Lord what is right.—(Cheers and counter cheers.) The t
Lord will, of course, act as he pleases with respe,e,
Noble
to
to the public business brought forward by
Government, but finding no reason to admire
hthei
conduct which the Noble Lord disapproves I sObe
see stronger reasons to disapprove of his conduct in
`fast
strutting all public business, for which he has given n°2l
reason, although founded upon an attack and all impuretr.o.o
upon me which is entirely gratuitous upon the part of the Nagle
Lord, and in support of which he has not a tittle of proof to give,
and which ought not to have been brought forward by him
without his having some plausible reason on which to support
it.—(Loud cheers.)
HUNIE having moved the adjournment of the Her:f
he begged to say that he had consulted no one as to his lino to
conduct, and that the Noble Lord opposite had as much to. t
with it as the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies.
Lord INGESTRIE begged leave to say that he had era :in-
tended to cast the slightest imputation upon the Nob'.e Lot!,
What he wished to say was, that the party who had supeort7
b.e
the adjournment were the habitual supporters of the B
Lord; and it appeared to him that the most valuable privileget
of the minority—(The remainder of the sentence was I°s
amidst loud cries of " Oh, oh," and laughter.)
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the II""
divided, when there appeared--
For the Amendment 9l
Against it
Majority... ............ —284
On our return to the galleesrcyttio:si_vineelf,HLoeueoannund.d
beenhsAl
sentimentsr throughout.UAEu opmno
no shttihsaen legs.xsuiob 7
riesiomersbt opportunity i said
df
ohs eteasth.i 0
ed. Go
on.")
he
et
begged
ehdouter—m
,Leauthgahttetrh,e adnedbateeonhteinnueewd eardijeesuormf
Lord STANLEY thought it was really time for the House
tthoeciornmsiodsetrysaelruiaobulselyptroivsixisehgaetsl.eig(tLh,:hed they might
)be
Tdihsperoesedwat:
permit the carrying the abuse of that which was in itself one d.
no one more ready than he was to admit that there were °Lae'
lions when some unreasonable proposition might be
upon the House, and at a late hour by an overwhelming
jority ; and then, in his opinion, the (-Aver of moving constant
adjournments was valuable, and at that time only was it justi-
fiable.—( Hear.) It must be clear to every Hon.
that if any oae Member, who was determined Gentleman
that
question should not be debated, and who had lisd
the power from five in the afternoon to two in the morning
to state his opinions to the House, and who had neglected to
avail himself of that opportunity, it would be absolutely imp's'
sible that they could conduct the business of the country."-
OTI•
(Cheers.) Really he should have thought that the 1-1
and Learned Gentleman had come from Dublin burning with
the
resentment against him (Lord Stanley) and his Bill, and. he
should have thought that when he had met him face to face
he would have taken the earliest opportunity—(Much cheering)
of redeeming the pledge he had made in Dublin, that be woul
reiterate those charges to his face—(Renewed cheering)--and
moreover, that at all events he would have had the honesty
of purpose to do so, when, according to the rules of the
House, he (Lord Stanley) would have been enabled to answer
his objections. He (Lord Stanley) had waived the advantage he
had a right to claim ; but he did not expect that the Hen'
and Learned Member, after two nights had been consumed by
the House in debating the question over again—the matter
having already occupied two nights' continuous debating' oa
the second reading_he did not think that, in the close of the
second night of the second discussion of the same question, the
Hon. and Learned Member never having made an attempt t°
rise, he would have met him by repeated motions of adjournmenitit
Could such conduct lead to anything but the stoppage of
whew
public business ? That must follow as a matter of course, ashe'''
motions were made for the adjournment of the House in such a'
manner He well knew that a minority persistinein those motions
had the power to do so, hut if they did, they prevented, thei
whole business of the country from being carried on, and f.
they exercised their privilege upon all occasions, they stood I'l
the way of free public discussion in that House—(Cheers)--
and they must be subject to the imputation which the country
would cast upon them if they resorted to those expedients in
order to put off the evil day, when the Home would declare
imperatively that the Bill ought to ,o
-o on.—(Loud cheers.) if
really placed every Gentleman who had charge of a 131
in a position of the greatest difficulty, which both sides of the
House must feel. There was no doubt that this qeestion was
one in which it was necessary to have the speedy
of the deepest importance, and of the most vital interest, and
the House. It was not one in which he ought to be conlYelc,
led to ask leave to bring on at intervals of a week, at °hi 4-
time the arguments used for or against the Bill would h
the
faded from the minds both of Members of that House ant's er
country. Again, on the other hand, he felt the delie'seg
the situation in which he was placed, in being compellea ale'
Hon. Members who had notices on the books to waive thet°
in his favour, but in justice to the question he would he
pelted to do so if the debate was to be driven off to • anoliu-
day ; but what a hardship was inflicted upon those M embers
Their next sitting would be on Wednesday, which was
only day on which Members not connected with the; Geyer'',
decision or
merit had an opportunity of bringing forward 111„,eia..
sures in which they were interested. ALi Hen-lor
able and Learned Member opposite sto d first
to-morrow with a motion, which he and °lre'
other Honourable Members thought of corrsiderable
many occasions—it he did not obtain preced
portance—( Hear, hear)—and which had bee. a postponee
it was difficult for any one to say when, durinc;the present ict,
sion, he could bring forward his Bill again it', .he were to Lie t
so that the adjourned debate mi n rig"' a
eonoe 0 that
the next sitting • b 'd
, esi es, what security b- d the flouse n?
the debate • would not be again ad' till envy ron
jouvr,ed to
_,,en that
With great respect for the Gentlemen ho had
sP
that the
night at an early period of the evening, lee should say
advanced
from
debate did not appear to him to have
beet much b, be'
between 5 o'clock and 10 or half-past 10. At 8 o'clee"
lieved there were no the
more than about 45 Members 1
ow,
House, and the greet difficulty that lbe felt to-morr
wou d 14,098 would be to keep the debate dive,
and, to prevent the .hieh frem being counted out duriees the fatal hours
occur between the hours of live and nine. It "ut thus be impossible to fix any limitswhich
within the deba
ee
could he terminated, and the nee that
y could have no aseura 11 the
it would be closed
on this day (Wednesday). under a but
to appeal to the courtesy of Hon. Gentlemen who had
ince to-mora,oos:
circumstances, however, he felt that he had no alternative.
,4
for the day, to allow his ( Lord Stanley's) Bill, if the debate wee"
adjourned, to take precedence on that evening. He would arix,
motel! the favour of the Gentlemen who had notices for to-
and he believed there were about twelve of them. In doing
so, however, he knew that he was taking a course which could:
only be justified by the extraordinary circumstances in which
they were placed, —( Cheers. )
e was
Mr. Sergeant TALFOURD said, that, so far as h _
concerned in the remarks of the Noble Lord, he felt that tn
position in which the question was placed left him but one course
notic,
to pursue, and that was, that if other Hon. Gentlemen Pe: 0
polled their motions he would follow the example.—(Cheer
There were, however, particular circumstances in his case, for
the same thing had occurred on a former occasion. He e_
lee
gretted that, however, the less, because the inconvenience
arose from a fair debate, and he could not but feel that it arose
from a feeling to which he would never be a party. His Tee'',
sure was not a party one, but had been supported
many Hon. Members on the other side of the House ; while gel.
riding be against the Bill of the Noble Lord, which he hoped he
would soon have the opportunity of doing, he should not have
recourse to any unfair proceedings, and he was ready to accede
to the revest of the Noble Lord.
Sir C GREY in the name of those who had voted for the
adjournment of the Debate,
protested against having factious
motives imputed to them. --(Hear, hear.) He had voted for
the adjournment, not for the purpose of defeating the measure,
but to give Hon. Members who intend speaking, an opportu-
nity of expressing their opinions.—(Loud cries of" Oh ! oh
and great confusion, which rendered the conclusion of the Hoc.
Gentleman's speech inaudible. )
(ii the question being put, strangers were ordered to with-
draw preparatory to another division, when
Mr. H A WES said he hoped it was net intended to divide.
as the Noble Lord had got precedence for to-morrow. He
thought the debate oueht to he adjourned as the Hon. anti
Learned Member for Dublin wished to speak, and the 11 oes-
Member for Kilkenny had said that other Hon. Members si ere