The Sun.
London, England, 1823-07-01 00:00:00

PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS Jurre 30.
On the motion of the Earl of LivEnroot., the Convicts'
Employment, the Felonies' Repeal, the Sentence of Death, and,
the Larcenies' Punishment Bills, were read a second time.
A message from the Commons brought up. the Feb° de se,
the Southwark Court of Requests, and other privste Bills.
The Earl of SiIAITESKIRIi presented a Petition from
the It habitants of the parish of St. °lave, against the London
Bridge Bill, which was referred to the Committee on the Bill.
The .Ilighland Roads' Bill went through a Committee, and
was reported without amendments.
MARRIAGES IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES.

On the committal of the Marriages at St.Petersburgh Bill,
Lord HOLLAND said, the present Bill had his entire con.
currence ; but he regretted that it did not extend to foreign
marriages—he alluded particularly to marriages contracted by
British subjects, and solemnized in the chapels of our Mini-
sters abroad ; for, although no lawyer, he had no doubt of the
validity of such marriages himself, yet many respectable per-
sons did entertain doubts on the subject; and though lawyers
when applied to had given an opinion favourable to the vali.
dity of such marriages, yet such opinion had always been
clogged with the observation that there had been no decision
on the subject. • He regretted that, during a Session in which
so much of the law relating to marriages had been taken from
the common law, and placed on the Statute Book, no statute
nor clause, nor even dictum, had been uttered, for setting at
rest this question of the legality of marriages solemnized in
factories abroad, or in the chapels of our Ambassadors there.
, The Marquis of lIANSDOWN concurred in opinion with
his Noble Friend, of the necessity of some declaratory law on
the subject of the marriages solemnized under the eircum•
stances alluded to.

Lord COLCHESTER was also desirous that another ses.
sion should not pass without some measure being brought in
for setting the question at rest.
• The Earl of LIVERPOOL entirely agreed with what had
fallen from the preceding speakers. At the time the present
Bill was brought in, he had said the only objection which
could be made against it was; that being confine in its opera.
tion to marriages solemnized at St. Petersburgh, it might give
rise to doubts of the validity of other foreign marriages. He
believed'it was a completely recognized principle of our laws,
that marriages made in foreign countries, according to the laws
of those countries, are valid ; hut the present Bill had no re-
ference to that ease. There were two .ways in which mar-
riages might be regularly solemnized by British subjects
abroad—they might either be made according to the laws oldie
respective countries, or the parties might be married in the
house of the Minister. So long as the factory at St. Peters.
burgh existed, marriages solemnized by the chaplain there
were conceived to be of.tbe same efibet as if they bad been se,

APPELLATE JultispwriON
On the motion of the Earl of litvs:nrooL, the Scotch Com•
mistioners of Inquiry Bill was read a second time, and order-,
ed to be committed to.niorrnic.
The Earl of LIVERPQOL Chen moved the first resolution.
recommended by thaaeieeKommittee for Increasing the nuns,
bet of days during which the Ilotiac would hear Appeals, from
three days to five 'lays in the week.
Earl GROSVENOR objected to the compulsory clause for
enforcing the attendance of Peers,. and thought it would be
not be procured. if this resolution were adopted,
worth while to see first whether a voluntary attendance could
it would lead
to a singular anomaly, and part of a cause might be heard by.
three Peers, another part of the cause by three other Peers, and
the conclusion by three others, who bad heard perhaps little or
nothing of the case, and the Deputy Speaker could only give
his opinion. At present, the House had the advantage of the
opinion of the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack,
which, notwithstanding that habitual doubt' and hesitation
which he had himself good humouredly ackmowledged to be.
long to him, certainly
swayed the opinion of Many Noble Lords,
and besides, they had also the advantage of the Noble and
Learned Earl's vote, which they could not have from the De-
puty Speaker. •
Lord MANVERS hoped the House would pause before
they adopted this resolution, for if agreed to without
cation, it would come to this—that the House must sit during
the summer.
Lord ERSKINE thought that if the Bill which had been
read the second time- that evening'•, passed into a law, their
Lordships would in a short time be under no difficulty at anon
the subject of appeals, because he was sure that if they appoint.
ed proper Commissioners (of which he had no doubt) they
Would have faithful and enlightened assistance from the Judges
of the Court of Session, and from the eminent persons of the
Scotch bar, anti the best effects might be anticipated. in his
opinion, the great arrear arose froulhaving brought before them
points of fact and not points of law; but it never was intended
that appeals front facts should occupy their Lordships' time.
But it might be said what was to be done in the interun while
the inquiry was going on by the Conmiluioners ? He would
say, nothing should be done; they must 'go on as they could.
The present seemed to be meant as a -preliminary step, and he
for one never could consent to any change in the manner in
which the House should exercise its jurisdiction. For his own
part, he was ao well satisfied with the manner in which the ju.
dicial business of the House was conducted by his Noble and
Learned Friend on the 'Woolsack, assisted by another Noble
and Learned Friend (Lord Retlesdale), that he professed he
could see no remedy for the evil but impounding him in that
house--(A laugh.)—lt was very true they mightlose the bene.
fit of their services by death, but he. believed they. were too
much men of honour, seeing their usefulnesst to suffer any
thing but death to cause the ileum a loss oC thew services. He
might say that he (Lord Erskine) knew something of the law,
but of Scotch law lie was as ignorant as a native of Mexico,
and yet he was quite as learned in it as any one of their Lord-
ships who could be appointed Deputy Speaker, who could .but
bring to his office a legal apprehension. For his own put, he
was above 70 year* of age, anti could not be compelled to take
any part, and he ohould therefore, if theresolutions were adept-
cd, leave their Lordships to themselves.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said,
,lie did not see because
his Noble and Learned_Friend was above 70 years of age, that
he should therefore have such an titter obliviousness of what
was going on about him, that he should not assist in the busi-
ness of appeals in the House of Lords. Ile thought that in the
case of any future Chancellor, the minister should make that
attendance a condition of his pension. The Noble Lord (Gros
-
valor), in the plentitude of hisimowletige, might perhaps have
no doubt on any point of English, Irish, or scotch law ; but
when tile Noble lord took upon himself to taunt hint with
hesitation and doubting, he would tell the Noble Lord, that
when they were deciding causes in the last resort, and their
decisions were to make the law to other Courts, they could not
be too cautious in coining to those decisions. The time was
fast approaching when his natural life must terminate, and for
his judicial life, it had already been too long ; but when the ter.
ruination bf his natural life did arrive, that degree of caution,
which was called doubt and hesitation, would he his
,greatest
comfort ; becituse by means of that he had reverted decrees,
both of his own and other persons, and prevented, the injustice
of A keeping possession of property which of right helongetito
R. If their Lordships would compare his conduct as a judge dor-
ing the 20 years which he had sat on the judicial heoch, with
the conduct of any of his illostrious pretlecessors—tand lie did
not (ear the.eornparoton ; on the contrary,'lleinviteditt—lie was.
sure that the comparison would not turn out to his discredit.-..

(Hear 1)—On thataccount he could not but feel indignation when
be heard the language in which his conduct had been arraigned
in another place by those who ought to have known better-than
to use it. It had been publicly asserted that appeals in the
House Of Lords were nothing more than appeals from the Lord
Chancellor in one place to the Lord Chancellor in another.
He should like to know whether the persons who dealt in such
assertions were aware that there were many appeals to their
Lordships from the Chancery,in cases which had never been heard
at all by the Lord Chancellor, but which had been decided by
the Master of the Rolls or the Vice-Chancellor? For instance,
the great case of " Clinton v. Cholinondely" was not an ap.
peal from the Lord Chancellor ; and there were a great mini.
bet of other appeal cases now . before their Lordships of a si.
miler description. Besides this, he should, ike to know whe.
ther gentlemen in Westminster-hall had yet to learn that Lord
Chancellors were not ashamed to retract their opinions, when
they had reason to believe that those opinions were formed:upon
erroneous grounds. He would undertake to say, that there was
not one of the great and distinguished characters who had sat
before him upon their Lordships' woolsack, that had ever
shown the slightest reluctance to reverse his judgment, when
it was shown to be incorrect; anti he would fearlessly ask
whether he himself had everaoibited any unwillingness to re.
consider before their Lordships fifty of the decisions to which
he might have previously come in another place.. -(Heat I)-..
lie could say most conscientiously that be never had; and foe
that very reason the insinuations which hat] been thrown out
against his judicial conduct were as cruel and vexatious as
they were unfounded and unjust. He had never upon any
occasion declined, on the contrary, he had made it Ins cond.
nual practice to state at length the various grounds upon which
he rested his decisions, in order that the bar might see, and
so be enabled to declare to their clients whether those de.
cisions were correct or not ; and he defied any man to point
out a single case where the correctness of them had been
doubted, in which he had , not expressed his gratitude to
the party who suggested the doubt. If persons acquainted
with the practice of his Court had made upon his conduct
those observations which had been made upon it by those
who were totally unacquainted with ' it, he should indeed
feel them acutely ; but he was happy to say that those
observations did not proceed front those who had the best oppor.
tunity of marking his conduct. They came front those who
knew little or nothing of the subject—who scarcely ever put a
foot into his court, and who were not therefore particularly well
qualified to judge of its proceeding& lie would therefore add,
that upon that very account, they were bound in eomtnon
honesty to abstain from throwing out random insinuations,
which were calculated to hurt, In the opinion of the Ring's sub.
jects, an individual, who, if he was not a great judge—and he
slid not venture to call himself a great judge—at least filled a
great judicial situation. Having said thus much regarding the
doubts anti hesitations with. which he had been taunted, he now
came to the subject more' mmediately before their Lordship&
The Bill then before the Nouse ought not to be considered with
reference to the present Lord Chancellor, but all future Lord
Chancellors : and it appeared to him, that however sedulously
they might attend to their jodicial duties in that House,—and
he could assure their Lordships, that whether in office or out
of office, he would always attend in his place whilst strength
was left to him,—no reform that their Lordships might make
in their own judicial regulations would effect much good, unless
a very great change were at the same time made in those of the
Court of Session. It was the happiness, and the peculiar hap.
pine of the people of England, that they had a system of law,
no matter how it had been constructed, and an administration
of justice, superior to that of any other country. The division
of the courts of law from the courts of equity was so ad.
'nimble, and at the same time so necessary to the adminis•
tration of speedy justice, that until something like it were
established in Scotland, it would be impossible for their Lord•
ships to do enough, whatever alterations they might flake in
their appellate jurisdiction. In making this observation, he
did not mean to reflect either upon the learning or the judg-
ment of members of the Court of Session—by no nteanee.
it was the system of. which he complained, not of those who
administered it. So Involved and complicated was it, that it
Will almtest impossible for any man who perused the different
papers in a Scotch appeal to discover whet the point was, about
which the parties were quaerelling. ' Here the Learned Lard
entered into is description of the Manner in which the papers
eta Scotch lawsuit increased in its different stages: firm front
the summons to the Memorial ; then from the memorial to the
answer in which a distinguished Scotch advocate had confess.
ed to him, that it was them?ctic,o to insect any thing and every
thing the-ply chose ; anti thin irom the answer down throug
an the intermediate stages to the ocerees by wimp itien.qlc,
papers were swollen to an immense mass, ' so large," said the
Learned Lord, taking up a quantity of papers that were about
fifteen inches thick, twelve long-, and six broad, " that if I were
permitted by your Lordships' orders to ask the clerk at your
table whether they are not twice the bulk of this, I am sure
that he could not, on his oath, give me an answer in the ne.
gative."—(llear! anti alaugh.)—Hii Lordship then proceeded
to complain, that when the Judges in the Court of Sessitin
gave their decision, they merely stated the nature of it, witli;,
out explaining the reasons on which it was founded. Hence
it happened that it was frequently not !satisfactory to the
party ag
' ainst whom it was given ; and it was a fact that
was undeniable, that appeals were often made from Scot-
land to their Lordships, in order to discover the reasons on
which the judgment rested in the Courts below. He had
once thought that the establishment of a court of error in Scot-
land, by calling in all the judges to review the case which had
been decided by a portion of them, would tend much to dinti.
nish the number of Scotch appeals. He had been since told
that such was not likely to be the result of it. Indeed, one
objection that had been made to it was the expence ; but he
could not see how it applied, since at present an appeal could
be made by reclaiming petition from one division of the Court
of Session to another; and the only difference which his plan
would have made would be, that the appeal would be to the
whole Court instead of to a part of it. Ile had, however,
abandoned that idea; and he now said to Noble Lords, with •
regard to the plan contained in the Bill now before the House,
" If it be not the best, have any of you any thing better to pro.
pose ? If you have, propose it, and begone ; if you have not,
examine whether this plan bei not better than your existing
system."—(Hear, hear I)—He believed that one Noble Lord
had suggested that it might be expedient to take away from
their Lordships all Scotch appeals. if that could be done con.
stitutionally, it might be well; but he was afraid that it could
not be done, especially when he recollected what had paseed in
the Scotch Parliament respecting the Remetle of Law. Ile had
now been conversant in Scotch causes for 40 years : whilst at
the bar belied been counsel in many of the most important of
them ; whilst he was Chief Justice of the Counnon Pleas, lie
had attended regularly when they came before the House :
and lie thought that since he had been Chancellor, nobody
could justly chare him with treating them with negligence
(Hear, hear!}—Experienced as he was in them,. 'he would
not only while hear.
say that
titlitealtnthine
ythwatc"Hiote—hisnoattotenniti;ldntiring the intervals when
he was enabled to detach his thoughts from the cases he
had heard elsewhere, but ale° during many a night which their
Lordships hail devoted to much more interesting pursuita.—.
With that experience to direct him, he again resit that the re.
weds, for these numerous appeals must be administered in the
Courts below In the first Instance, and in that House In the
second. Without some such remedy, it would be quite linpos-
sible that those of them which happened to be in arrear could
ever be overtaken. His Lordship then asked leave to offer a
few observations to the House upon the Court of Chancery, in
which he trusted that their Lordeldps would not so much oon.
eider him as the individual presiding in that Court as an indi-
vidual Peer, declaring his opinion upon a point in which the
whole nation was interested. He believed that it anti a gene-
rally admitted truth, that the greater attendance a Judge gave
to causes, the more causes he had to attend to. Now, under
the present increase of business in the Court of Chancery, it
would be quite impossible for the Lord Chancellor, if he only
attended to it three days in the week, to perform the duties of
his situation in any manner at all adequate 'to their impor.
tense. The question then was, what relief could their Lord.
ships give to the individual who filled that distinguished office
in the discharge of his twofold dutlee—lie meant those In
Court of Chancery, and those in the House of_Lords, 'as its
Speaker ? He belieVed that if the Constitution would Allow
of it, the best thing that could be done, would be to' pre-
vent the Scotch causes front coming into the House of
Lords at all ; but as he thought, that according to its
constitution that could not be done, the next best thing
for their Lordships to do, would be to try .the present espe..
riment.-,4lhar, hear, hear !)—Foi his- own part, he "thought
it would fall ; but tin, on account of the great interests
itrolved in it, it was only due to the country to try, it,rl
(Hear hear!)--''he Learned Lard then alluded to the projeett
which had been started 'for dividing the duties of the Lord-
Chancellor. One of them was to prevent the office of Lord .

Lord ELLENBOROUGII hire Suggested, that as- many of
their Lordships might wish to express their opinions upon this
question, and, after what had fallen from the Learned Lord
(Eldon), might wish for further time for consideration, the pre:.
sent might be the most convenient time for adjourning the
debate.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, if there should not he
sufficient time for all the 'Noble Lords who wished to address-

the House totleliver their opinions that night, he could have
no objection to the kuljOurntitent, but for the present be thought

it would be better to -go on. •
Lord AIELVILLE contended, that the recomnientlation
of their Lordships' Corontittee was not for an alteration or
re-modelling the constitution of the House. That which
:they recommended wag quite consistent' with the practice',
of their Lordships. The same objection might be made to the
.appointment of a Lord-keeper to :preside in the House, or to
the temporary presidency of a Deputy Speaker in the absence
'of the Lord Chancellor, which Deputy Speaker their Lordships
knew might be a Commoner. The clause which made it corn-
pulsory on Peen to attend to these appeals wires, he thougitt, a
very proper one, and one which be cordially supported.; 'fly
such means, there would be a certainty of having the htisiness
dispatched. The Noble Lord then went on to contend, in ar—
mee to the arguments of the Noble Lord who preceded him,
that the people of Scotland possessed the right of appeal to their
Lordships' House, sued that that right, though the 'name cat"
their Lordships' House was not thelotioneti, was essentially re .
Cognized by the Act of Orion with Scotland. The fact eats
proved by the constant practice of Scotland in sending appeali.
from that hour up to the resent hour, and the result of thi
exercise of that right had given 'great satisfaction to the bench,
the bar, and the whole population of Scotland.
-Lord HOLLAND opposed the Resolutions, and objected to
the project of the Noble Lord, that it began by imputing im.
perfections to the constitution of, that House which did not
exist, and faults to the individuals composing it of which they:
e y
course appointed
y that
the a
couldNo
were not guilty. The Noble Lord had admitted that there ,
b
were many objections to the proposed plan, but had asked '
them what they could propose that was better ? would
to dreiawsektiete butt
represented Noble and Learned Lord, whether' this was fair reason.
tag? '!"hey •
le.°efa;ragar'aendd thoser grave vijoe nitienaxt°ootil eni:tline
Committee
b ,Noble
and a kn
tai
the House, and, instead of offering the best plan, presenting .
an imperfect one, and asking vihat those who were dissatisfied
with that plan were ready to substitute in its place'? 80),v/it'd
the Noble Lord's cook had laid a hid dish on his Wile, and
that his Lordship were to find fault with it, would it be a pro-
per answer (on the part of the cook) to say--" I admit that the
dish is not good, but can you cook a better one Logy
this was the way in which the report of the Committee
had been dished up,. Is great deal had been saiti_altenttheep.,
pointment of a Lord Keeper, and petting the seals In commis-
mon, to *hew that there were cases of neeeisity in which the
principle of separating the Speaker af, the I!ou , e from the
office of Lord Chancellor had been acted upon. This reminded
the AMMONIA* to virtual Representation, by telling them
places in England herself were hot
hint of Dtirke's reply to those who attempted to reconcile
that many important
virtually represented. Burke's observation was—.", that
they showed to the Americans the shameful parts of. the
Constitution, in order to reconcile them to the abuse." t'CI
`with 'respect to' Scotland,' wt's wantetl,to establish by
rifts and perpetual law an entitlement which wasiteme,
times imposed upon us by the el: gem of the ease. ile
denied Met Scotland 114111 ever.foutirta,want of justice trt 'that
House ; on the'Contrary,'the people of that country knew well
that they would meet it there, free from party cabals and heal
prejudices. And of all that he had heard from time to tirue uf

,7that people, he had never heard it attributed to them that they
did not understand their own interest.—(Laughter.)—Scotland
would feel it an indignity to be subjected to this new arrange-
ment; it was an innovation which, if it did deprive them of
justice itaelf,,would deprive them of the appearance of it; for,
they might reasonably say to this country, " you keep your
tribunal perfect for yourselves, but you give us an inferior
artiAe, with which you say we ought to be satisfied." What
would be the situation of the House with a Speaker who was
not, a Member of their botly,'and who could not have rank, or
importance, or weight in the country that belonged to a Lord
+Chancellor ? The gituation of such a person, with respect to .
the House, reminded him of what Shakspeare intended to be ,
the ae plus ultra of folly, the character of Justice Shallow.
The great poet, in describing his eouncil-room, said, " they
by observing of him became very silly justices, and he by ob-
'tering them became a very justice-like serving man." They ,
, owed it to their own dignity to reject the Resolution, and Scot-
•land had a right, under the Acrof Union, to appeal to that
House, constituted as it was. The 19th article of Union de-
nied an appeal to any Courts in this country, omitting the
House of Peers in thatdenial ; the inference from which was,
that they recognized the appeal to their Lordships. In fact,
the uniform practice since was a clear proof that . the right was
. perfectly understoood. For these reasons he would vote against
the 'Resolutions, and he thought that every Noble Lord who
• isalued the dignity of that 'House, and the just privileges of the
people of Scotland, was bound to do the same.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that as it was then clear
the debate could not terminate in any reasonable time that
evening, and as the question was one of great importance, the
beat course would be to adjourn the further discussion to to-
Arn MOW.

The discussipn was accordingly adjourned to this day.
The other Bills were then passed through their respective
stages, and the House adjourned.

110USt•OF COMMONS.

Mr. JAMES presented a petition frotn the inhabitants of the
wish of St. Pancras, praying for a reform in the Borough
Representation.
Oeneral PH IPPS presented a petition from the Ship-owners
of Scarborough against the Reciprocity of Duties' 11111. ; •
Mr. S. WORTLEY presented a similar petition from the
Ship.oWnerm of Whitby.
31r. CORTE'S gave notice, that he would move next Sea.
siGn to repeal the law which imposed distinctive marks upon
Hop-sacks.