The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-17 00:00:00

Mr. SHIEL said that, as the Vice-President of the Board of
Trade, he had no hesitation in conceding to the motion. There
had been no inquiry into the subject for fifteen years, and in
the meantime the exportation of machinery had gone on at a
very rapid rate of increase. What afforded him the greatest
satisfaction was, that the conduct of the inquiry would be in
the hands of a eentleman of so much sagacity, and so well ac-
quainted with the subject as his Yon. Friend.—( Hear, heft%)
Mr. HUME vindicated his character from the aspersions
thrown upon him in respect to his conduct upon this question.
He was a member of the Committee eighteen years ago, upon
whose recommendation the Combination Laws, and the law
prohibiting artizans to emigrate were repealed. That Committee
was desirous also of repealing the law which prevented the expor-
tation of machinery, but he (Mr. H.) was prevented from bring-
ing in the Bill for that purpose by the advice of Mr. Huskisson,
in consequence of the jealousy and the alarm of the manufac-
turers. He had always said that the time would come when
that body would see their own error; and all the suffering
which he had predicted they had since undergone. He
thought that it was sound and true policy to relieve manu-
factures of every kind from all restrictions, and then no coun-
try in the world could compete with England. We might
supply the whole world with machinery without suffering any
disadvantage. Improvements took place in machinery every
four or five years, and we would always be able to maintain
our superiority. He hoped that the Session would not pass
without a Bill being brought in to remove the inconveniences
from which the trade of the country had hitherto suffered.
Mr BROTHERTON would support the appointment of the
Committee. He did not for his own part wish to give any de-
cided opinion on the subject, and he would wait for further in-
quiry. But it was evident that the law ought not to be allowed
to remain in its present state. In his opinion it should either
be entirely prohibitory, or all machinery should be allowed to
be exported. There was now in France machinery to the value
of 15,000,0.01. 'I hat machinery must either have been smug-
gled into France from this country, or it must have been manu-
factured in consequence of our prohibitory duties. It was ma-
nifest, therefore, that the present system operated unfavourably
for England. What he wished for was fair play, and he had
no doubt but we would then be able to compete with all the
nations in Europe. Under these circumstances he considered
that a full investigation of the subject would be attended with
great advantage.
Mr. VILLIERS said that he believed it to be of the greatest
importance to this country, that it should export machinery ;
and that no restriction coind be imposed on it which would not
be moat injurious. He represented many who would be glad
to see that the end of the proposed inquiry would be a removal
of all restrictive duties. Those whom he represented would
be glad to find the superiority once possessed by this country
still retained ; but it now became a matter of necessity with
them, seeing the progress which foreign manufacturers had
made, to export, instead of their goods, the machinery for manu-
hiring them. He cm old not help calling the attention of the
House to the alarms of the Hon. Member for Belfast. That
Honourable Member was, however, oae of a party who
I steadily maintained all those restrictions on our
commerce of which our manufacturers complained.—(Hear.)
That had always teen denied on the other side of the House,
and the law which fiad been founded on that denial had been
maintained.—( Hear.) The Hon. Member, however, had tra-
velled ; and now, for tl.e first time, he admitted the rivalry of
foreign countries, and the necessity for inquiry.—( Hear.) That
was a most important admission from one of that party, and he
hoped it would not be lost upon his friends, but that they would
see that our national prosperity depended upon the prosperity
of our manufacturers. Ile should support the motion, and
only wished it went further.—(Hear.) The law was perfectly
inadequate for protection, inasmuch as there was a company
at Hamburgh for the importation of this very machinery, at a
cost of 35 per cent.—(Hear.)
Mr. WALKER felt obliged to the House and the Govern-
ment for the kind manner in which they had met his question ;
and he thought that inquiry would show that no injury would
accrue from the exportation of machinery.
Mr. HINDLEY thought that the operatives would be
benefited by the exportation of machinery, but manufacturers
would not. He did not think foreigners would take off all the old
machinery of the country as supposed by the Hon. Member for
Kilkenny, but that they would get the best. The question
had not been fully stated to the House. It was a matter
of great consequence that they should consider whether they
should encourage the exportation of machinery to the amount of
60,000/., which was the cost for the machinery of a mill, when
the annual profit derived from the employment of the ma-
chinery in this country would be the same. He thought the
possession of the machinery would teach the foreigner how he
should beneficially use it. It removed many obstructions from
the foreigner which now prevented him from acquiring an exact
knowledge of our improved methods of manufacturing. He did
not urge these operations in order to defeat the object of his
Hon. Friend in obtaining useful inquiry, but he asked the
House to pause before they gave away abenefit. All his feelings
were in tavour of free trade, and had we a free trade in corn
and no national debt, he would then say go forward. The in-
telligence of the country would then carry all before it.
MUNTZ thought the subject so self evident as to re-
quire no Committee. Every tool used might be exported, and
was exported. Our manufacturers were underworked on the
Continent. While taxing our machinery, we were not bene-
fiting the manufacturer; he therefore thought the Hon. Mem-
ber would do better to bring in a Bill at once to permit the
exportation of machinery, and the shorter time wasted in the
Committee the better he should be pleased.
Mr. EWART thought that taxing the exportation of ma-
chinery, thus raising its price, the foreigner was driven to
make it for himself. These restrictions ought to have been
removed long ago. It was due to the Hon. Member for Kil-
kenny to state that in 1824 he was the first to draw the atten-
tion of the House to this subject, and on that occasion all the
revenue officers had borne testimony to the utter inefficiency
of our prohibitory regulations. Until the year 1750 there
was a free trade in the exportation of machinery. Mr. Hus-
kisson most truly observed, that while artizans were encouraged
to go out to other countries it was in vain to restrict the ex-
portation of machinery. The maintenance and advocacy of
the great principles of free trade was the only real basis of
the prosperity of this country.
Mr. MORRISON said that all who had paid any attention to
this subject must be convinced that the restrictions imposed by
those laws had checked one of the most important branches of
our commerce. This was the more to be lamented as machi-
nery is one of those things which belonged peculiarly to Eng-
land, and of which, if proper regulations were adopted, no na-
tion could deprive us. By these restrictions they had only
conferred a bounty upon foreign manufacturers, for our ma-
chines were smuggled to a considerable extent. He begged to
suggest to the Hon. Gentleman who had proposed this mea-
sure the expedieney of taxing machinery imported into other
countries. There might be some difference of opinion upon
that subject, but there could be none as to the propriety of that
inquiry.

Mr: THORNELY could not agree with the Hon. Mem-
ber's suggestion in reference to the further taxing of machinery,
as any additional tax would only be a bounty to the smuggler.
The motion was then put and carried.
Mr. O'CONNELL moved that the petition of John S.
Folds, presented on the 12th of February, be printed with
the votes. The Hon. Gentleman said that by a statute passed
in the reign of William /11., compensation was to be made to
all persons who were injured in Ireland by the malicious burning
of their premises and property. The individual who presented
the petition had had considerable property destroyed in conse-
quence of his premises being set fire to by persons engaged in
a combination, and his (Mr. O'Connell's) object was that the
petition should be in the hands of all the Members before he
made his motion for compensation.
Mr. GREENE would take the liberty ofsuggesting that con-
siderable inconvenience hail already occurred in consequence
of petitions being printed without a previous examination.
Perhaps the Hon. Gentleman would defer his motion till
Friday next.

Mr. O'CONNELL objected to any delay.
Mr. HUME said it was the intention of the Hon. and
Learned Member to found a motion upon the petition. 'There
would be no difference in the expense whether it was printed
with the votes, or five days later by the Committee.
Lord MORPETH saw no reason why the motion should not
be acceded to.

The petition was then ordered to be printed with the votes.
NIGER EXPEDITION.

Viscount INGESTRIE then, pursuant to notice, called the
attention of the llouse to the period of time appointed for the
sailing of the above expedition. lie did not intend to enter
largely into any of the merits or policy of the proposed expe-
dition ; he would be most glad to see the main object
of it fully carried out, viz., the total abolition of the
dive trade in the interior of Africa. He was given
to understand that it would not be ready to sail until the be-
ginning of April. He did not think they could arrive at Sierra
Leone until the end of May. They would then want some
men, called kroemen, which would detain them till June,
which was the most unhealthy part of the rainy season. lie
had been told that it was necessary that these vessels must go
up the river in the rainy season. That might be true, but
whe would say that the vessel could proceed by any proper
channel ? That channel was constantly changing in conse-
quence of the Delta in the Niger, which ran upwards of one
hundred miles. The vessels would get aground, and the crews
would be exposed to the pestilential climate for months.
Now, for the sake of humanity, he would ask whether
the expedition might not be delayed for a time ? Let
them be employed as exploring vessels, and be ready
to proceed on their mission at a more fitting opportunity.
There were many other considerations he would not then enter
upon, his sole object this evening being to call the attention of
the Government to the period of the departure of the expedi-
tion. A vessel named the Ethiope had just returned from the
Niger, having been unable to effect a passage up that river.
As a medium of commerce with Africa he thought there were
good grounds for doubting if that river would ever be found
available. Under these circumstances he hoped the Govern-
ment would not, for the sake of pleasing a few benevolent but
mistaken individuals, persist in an undertaking which there was
every reason to believe would be a complete failure, and
be attended by loss of life of almost every person who en-
gaged in it.

-Mr. M. O'FERRALL said the object of the expedition was
that which the Hon. Member had stated. It had been origi-
nally intended that the expedition should sail in the month of
October, but it had since been found necessary that its depa
ture should be deferred until March, in order that the
vesselsr
might have the advantage of the first floods in the rainy season,
witiout the assistance of which they could not effect a pas ag
up the Niger. With respect to that period of the year beinge
the most unhealthy, it was ascertained, by the re.searches of
scientific gentlemen, that it would not be found so unhealthy
to those who visited it in iron vessels; which, moreover, had
been specially prepared for the purpose.
Mr. HUME wished, if the Noble Lord the Secretary for the
Colonies had been present, to have asked him some questions
with respect to the objects of the expedition, which he pro-
fessed he could not understand. He thought the debate should
be adjourned, in order that the Noble Lord might be present,
and give some explanation on the subject.
3lr. VERNON SMITH was surprised the Hon. Member
for Kilkenny should inquire the object of an expedition for
whch twelve months ago he had joined voting a sum of
60moi 4_
(Mr. H” u
Fiume, " No such thing. bht er.) The
object of the expedition was to establish commerc'al relations
with the chiefs of that country, with a view to the abolition
of the slave trade, and the civilization of Africa. His Hon.
Friend (Mr. M. O'Ferrall) had already correctly explained
the reason for the delay that had taken place in the departure

of the expedition.
Mr. WARBURTON would say that, looking to the
magnitude of the expedition, the smallness of the means were
wholly disproportionate to it. The expedition was undertaken
to a part of Africa from which communication with the interior
was cut off for six months of the year. Sixty thousand pounds
was a large sum, and if that amount was expended in the be-
ginning, what would it come to at the conclusion ? Some delay
had occurred in the expedition, and he hoped that advantage

would be taken of that delay to give some more information
than was at present had on the objects of the expedition.
Mr. O'CONNELL did not think the Noble Lord had made

out any great ease on the subject of an improper time for
making the attempt to pass up the Niger. The Noble Lord
had failed in making out a case. The Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman then proceeded to comment on that part of the Noble
Li rd's speech which referred to Captain Beacroft sailing up the
Niger, and contendel, Pram the extracts read by the Noble
Lord from that officer's letter, that he did not establish the
view of the case which he sought to urge. The Hon. Member
then adverted to the public meeting which had been held to
promote the objects of the expedition—for the proceedings of
which meeting he referred to the Hon. Member for Kilkenny
as to what the objects of the expedition were.
Mr. HUME had merely asked that the motion would be ad-
journed till the objects of the expedition were more perfectly
understood by the House. The present was the first occasion