The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-11 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 10.
ARREST FOR. DEBT (IRELAND) BILL.
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)
After a few words from Mr. MORE O'FERRALL,
Mr. M. M I LNES said he would not have troubled the House,
after the able explanation of the Learned Solisitor-Generaol
of Ireland, were it not that his name appeared on the backlit:
the Bill introduced by his Hon. Friend. There wetreiumore-
strous evils committed with the present law of arrest
The
land, which the country would not longer tolerate.
Hon. and Learned Recorder for Dublin said that the modid-
cations in the law of arrest had not acted well in England ; he
(Mr. M.) could assure the Hon. and Learned
principle the people of England had determined Member that one
on was not
to return to the incarceration of debtors for small sums. It
was almost impossible to believe the enormous numbers rho
were incarcerated in the gaols of Ireland for sums so_te icu-
lously small, that it was, in fact, an amusement for English
travellers to liberate them.
Some of these persons had re-
mained in gaol for upwards of two or three years for
sums not exceeding ten shillings, and many were
for amounts beneath that.—(Hear.) There was another
circumstance so truly disgusting that it would not be longer
tolerated, and as he was not aware that the attention of the
Learned Solicitor-General had been directed towards it, he
would beg leave to mention it to the House. Owing to the
ease with which suits were carried out in the civil courts,
many persons who wished to get rid of the expense of main-
taining their parents were in the habit of instituting ficti-
tious suits against them for small amounts alleged to be due
for diet and lodging, and having obtained decrees, they
procured their incarceration, thus throwing the burden of
supporting the last years of the parents' lives upor. the
country.—(Cries of "Name an instance.") Why, they
would find that parents were confined in Cork gaol under
similar circumstances. The subject had been represented to
the Irish Government, but there were no means of remedying
the evil while the present system of arrest was in force. The
effect of the law of arrest for small amounts was, that the gaols
of Ireland were crowded with debtors. The Bill brought for•
ward by his Friend was distinguished for a brevity which
was exceedingly painful to legal minds---(Laughter)
—and he (Mr. Monckton Milnes) had expressed
his fears that it would in consequence meet with
much opposition from the Learned Members in that
House. He supposed, therefore, that they, the introducers
of the Bill, must rest contented with leaving the subject in
the hands of the Learned Solicitor-General for Ireland, and
he did hope that the Government and the Irish bar would no
longer allow this abominable state of things to continue.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD gave his unqualified approbation to
the Bill brought in by the Hon. Baronet the Member for
Waterford. lie thought that the present system of small
debt arrestments gave the power of inflicting immense
cruelty on the poarer debtors of Ireland, and for that reason
be should wish to see it to a considerable degree modified.
They had heard from a very high authority that the fear of
arrest had actually depopulated one county in Ireland, and
after what had occurred to-day he trusted the matter would
have the serious and immediate consideration of her Majesty's
GOvernment.
Mr. GROGAN said that the first announcement of this
fill spread the greatest alarm throughout Ireland, because,
whi!e it proposed at one " fell swoop" to abolish imprison-
ment for debt, it did not provide any substitute for that
mode of recovering just and bona fide debts. Still he was
glad the subject had been taken up by Government, and he
trusted, after the pledge of the Hon. Gentleman, the Solici-
tor-General for Ireland, the Bill would be withdrawn.
Mr. P. SCROPE said in many parts of Ireland the popula-
tion was being driven off the land through the medium of the
civil bill process, which had been alluded to by an
Honourable Member opposite, and he considered
itS
was high time a stop was put to these proceedings.
Under the law of distraint the landlord could not obtain pos-
session of his tenant's goods till some time after the rent had
become due, and the consequence was, that the civil bill pro-
cess system had been extensively resorted to for getting small
holders off the land, and throwing them into prison. The result
of all this had been, that the tenantry, from fear of arrest, were
finding their way to the quays of Liverpool and other ports
in England, and in this away many parts of Ireland were
becoming depopulated. In one instance a clergyman had
stated to him, that where a month or two ago he had a
population of upwards of 1,000 souls under his care, he now,
in consequence of this hunting and driving from the land
system, had only 500, and the clergy of Ireland, witnessing
the sad effects of the system, were unanimous in calling
upon the Government of Ireland to take steps to put a stop
to it.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN suggested that power might be
given to the assistant-barrister to stay execution in the cases
alluded to by the lion. Gentleman who had just sat down,
and then Government would have ample time to consider the
subject of this Bill.
Sir I:. FERGUSON hoped the House would be cautious
how it proceeded in this matter, for in their desire
to benefit the poor of Ireland they might inflict the most
serious injury upon the country. If the suggestion of the
lion. Gentleman opposite were adopted it might lead to the
concealment of property and the defrauding of creditors of
their just and legal claims.
Sir G. GREY hoped the Hon. Member would withdraw
his motion for the second reading of the Bill, the subject
being under the consideration of the law officers of the
Crown. If the Hon. Member did not consent to withdraw
it, it would be his duty to propose that the Bill be read a
second time that day six months.
Mr. B. ESCOTT hoped that his Hon. Friend would not
press forward his Bill on the present occasion. The
prin-
ciple contained in the Bill was one which he was sure would
eventually be adopted by the Legislature.
After a few words from Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN,
Sir H. W. BARRON consented to withdraw his motion;
in doing so, however, he wished to obtain a pledge from the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, that the
Govetument would themselves bring in a Bill upon the
subject.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said, that in consequerce of the
great amount, and the pressing nature, of other Irish busi-
ness,
he was not prepared to pledge himself to bring forward
a measure on the subject during the present session • he
would, however, pledge himself that the measure should re-
ceive the consideration of the Government.
Sir 11. W. BARRON wished to know if the Government
would have any objection to refer the Bill to a Committee
up stairs.
Mr. LA BOUCHERE said that he did not see any necese
sity for such a coime of proceeding.
Sir IV. 11. BARRON then wished to obtain leave to in-
introduce the Bill at some future period of the session. The
subject was too important a one to be summarily disposed
of, and wanted to know whether, if the Government were
unprepared with any measure on the subject, they would
give their support to the present Bill.
Mr. LABOUCHERE declined to make any pledges upon
the subject.—(Cries of " Divide, divide.")
After a short consultation between Mr. LABOLTHIRZ and
Sir IL W. Baum-ix, the Bill was withdrawn.
DRAINAGE OF LAND BILL.

On the order of the day being read for going into com-
mittee on the Drainage of Land Bill,
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the rate of interest at which
the loans were to be advanced under this Act. He consi-
dered that a higher rate of interest ought to be charged on
the money to be lent under this Bill, as otherwise the Go-
vernment would sustain loss on the advances they made.
If they did not do so, they would have to advance the in-
terest on Exchequer-bills.
Sir G. GREY said that the Hon. Member was rather late
in making his objection.
Mr. H. BAILLIE thought that the faith of Parliament
was pledged to the Bill last session, and they could not now
withdraw from the terms tl,en agreed to.
Mr. HUME thought that his Hon. Friend (Mr. Wil-
liams) was misunderstood. All he wanted was that the
finances of the country should sustain no loss by the ad-
vance. This Bill raised the question of advancing the in-
terest on Exchequer. bills, and he wished to know from the
Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Home Secretary, whe-
ther, in case they themselves should have to pay more
interest than they did at present, they would have any ob-
jection to permit a clause to be introduced into the Bill fur
the purpose of charging that increased rate on the advances
to be made.
Sir GEORGE GREY said that it was not intended that
any alteration should be made in the rate of interest, as they
had engaged last session to make the grants on the terms
specified in the Bill, end therefore he should not assent to
the introduction of such a clause as that mentioned.
After a few words from Mr. Agliouby, Sir Andrew Leith i
Hay, Mr. Finch, and Lord Duncan, the House went into
Committee.
On clause 1 being proposed,
Mr. WILLIAMS said her Majesty's Government wer
Called upon to protect the public from any loss by the ad-
vancement of money. Some clause ought to be intro-
duced giving the security.
. Mr. FINCH did not consider there was any weight in
the suggestion of the Hon. Member, as if it were adopted it
would prevent any person from borrowing at all.
s Lord LINCOLN said that the introduction of this mea-
sure was not by any means beneficial to the Highlands or
Lowlands of Scotland. He considered that the principle of
the measure should be confined to that of the general Act
of last session, which the late Government introduced,
and that was confining the loans to the purposes of draining
alone. Every Hon. Member who was conversant with agri-
culture would bear him out in saying that thorough drainage
was the most beneficial improvement which could be made
on an estate. He desired to know whether the Govern-
ment had made up their minds to carry out the Bill
as soon as po-sible? If they had not, he would give notice of
his intention of introducing a Bill very similar to that he in-
troduced last year.
Sir GEORGE GREY said, that in many parts of Scotland
the fencing and trenching, by which it was so necessary to
make drainage available, would be of so expensive a character
as to preclude a great number of persons from obtaining any
benefit under the Bill. Such would be peculiarly the case
with regard to those districts where distress existed, and
thus the Act would be a dead letter. The Government were
perfectly sensible of the importance of the subject, and they
would give it their serious attention. They would introduce
a Bill upon the subject. They would be most happy to give
him their warmest assistance.
Lord DUNCAN most entirely concurred in the sentiments
expressed by the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Lincoln). It
would be most proper to give a priority to the proprie-
tors of the Highlands over those of the Lowlands. This was
not a small grant of public money, it was one of 2,000,0004
to Great Britain and 1,500,000/. to Irelasnd. The High-
land proprietors deserved this precedence ; they had
made great exertions to meet the distress, and that
too without any grant from Parliament. There was,
however, another and a stronger reason in favour of
his supposition. At present in the Lowlands, with which
he was connected, wages had risen fifty per cent. By
the introduction of this money these wages would be most
unnaturally increased in their amount, and in a very short
time the labourers would be thrown out of employment in
consequence of the influx of inhabitants from other parts of
the_ country, who would flock thither in search of work.
Lord MORPETH said, that with respect to the remark of
his Noble Friend opposite, that the Highlands were entitled
to particular
looking at the considerationt under this Bill, he would see by
thought of by the
Government,
the Scotch generally were the first
lands. It would be
t-nment, and particularly the High-
iiidthat of this two millions two-
thirds would go to Scotland, or perhaps more than
that sum. Very few aPleeonts had as yet been made from
England, and it did not appearmore,
With
Government would
it
bore
se
large
regard to the esti-
matedbe enabled to entertain any
proportion to the
cost for fencing,
and, it would
value of the land that, unless in veryrrela
not be worth while to undertake it alLa valuable
1. 3eath
Lord GEORGE BENTINCK heard with great an,„
regret expressed by the Noble Lord the Meiber -Cr rr,'se a
that the labourers' wages had risen. It seemed to be the
Lord's wish that the labourers' wages should be ground downble
AS much as possible. With regard to any fear of exhausting
the money market by borrowing two millions, the Chancellor
of tha Exchequer would tell them that, in the competition for
the loan of eight millions, a short time since, eighty millions
had been brought forward, and that was a pretty fair proof
. that the money market would not be injured by this loan.
ill}: 'VS nit esForiencing would, however, be very considerable, as it
~.;:s
‘. ' f _ - sn w drift.
is. -Is' ecessary to erect stone fences to protect the sheep
C4./4'4.------1- , ilr.. it E GREY said that the clause did not encourage
z., -i. 313::..,F01ft Se has draining.
- ,* -i. ... ' AN said that he had no wish, as stated by
C. ''All '''Cittlott d, to grind down the labourere wages. 11e
(
*-1.:4;
61 a p