The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-16 00:00:00

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wu sorry to be obliged to say that, judging from the speech
f the Hon. Harem t the Member for Marylebone, there was
strong feeling
in that House against the Irish proprietors,
and a desire to inflict on them what was called stringent
sra.easures. lie was sorry to say that he had often seen in-
arees where charges were brought forward in that House
sisening indiveseals, and those charges were afterwards-con-
e eyed as affecting a whole class.—( Hear, hear.) He was
lookrrd' that the Right Hon. Baronet, in his observations, had not
ta;ed fairly upon both sides of the question, hut had, without
talon means to inform himself of the correctness
tithe statements, openly inflicted upon two individuals
Re not light punishment of denouncing them in that House.
tva had in his possession a letter from a Mr. Leader, a gentle-
n in Ranturk, stating that at the presentment sessions there
ti''°°ol- were voted for the public works, and that, too, at a
~trte when it was believed that the whole sum would have to be
:Pia- The writer went on to say, that Sir B. Hall had been
misinformed in the statement he made the other night in the
s use, and that in the union of Kanturk there was not any
e
madn asingle individual possessing a property of 6,0001. per
an- After the able statements which had already been
on the subject it would no necessary f him to
°:ttle the House any further.t Le
He believed that no
fs
lure Member entertained any objection to the mea-
t, then before the House, although they were cal-
sainted
The to entail such severe burdens upon Irish property.
telliedegopmi6mtissioners said, that at that moment there was a de-
of improvement abroad, and since the furnishine of
wat report the same fact had been
caretabundanly coefirmed.
,sa anxious that the House should take that that spirit of
t4nrernent should not be checked or crushed, because in
setat eTst'es Ireland would be lost. If anythine were wanting to
tollend'rueland in the scale of nations it would be an incitement
sty strls aid therefore he prayed the House not to act on
hastily formed and crude opinions, not to give by a system
dolont door relief to the poor of that country an excuse for in-
sleenle, and thus neutralise the who!esome feeling which had
le-'l9' so extensively spread throughout the country. He
_ gretted that the Government had not romoted this spirit, by
e7tekildtAne to. the measure lately introduced for the purpose of
the eling Industrial improvement ice Ireland. He would, with
1841, Which
of the House refer to rtain statements given in
t/4"d'. Which showed the number of the population in each of
istricts of Ireland, the house accommodation, the extent
landltal cultivated and uncultivated, &c. He found, for in-
s•
that in the county of Mayo tkere were 1,360,000 acres
seod ,a,Population (excluding towns) of 370,000. The accom-
secia"°n was divided into four classes of houses,
Iv the returns gave the means of these families.
asv result showed that the valuatio of Mayo,
4,,2,99,851e ; the county rates were 39,2891.; leaving a net
tt stf 260,563. The number of families were 67,000 ; the
Earaber of individuals 370,000; and of these 255,987 above
eirs, Yeeat's of age could not read or write. The number of first
glass uses was 217 ; of the second class 312 ; ef the third
hue" 2,200; and of the fourth 3,803 ; thus showing that the
ee,ess would fall upon those least able to bear it. The Hon.
steir,°:er then proceeded to illustrate his argument by similar
thei.';`,l" from different parts of the country. He considered
" was the first duty of Government to take temporary
esi.-t'nres for the relief of distressed and starving people ; and he
rtiCelly regretted that the Ministry, instead of introducing
gres calculated to ulate and vivify the industry of
%east'', had in the measure before the House, disappointed
cleitZUntry by a promise of relief, which would end only in
JOHN O'CONNELL, was sorry that this measure had
41,.„estn introduced -would a eriod when the minds of men were
thee and when they be prepared to temperately discuss
eii,,,;MPortant question of the poor-law, instead of bringing it
tee all at a season when the crisis of a starving population dis-
prated their attention, and required their fullest consideration.
to b°
the report e haeceived from Ireland, there epared
Yeti. "ery prospect ofd ar more direful famine occur:ripeg next
the ' iand Government ought therefore to take steps to prevent
Pel ,tlarnity bearing down the landlords, rather than to corn-
See t`, them to maintain an extensive system of out-door relief.
esiii.'!aught, moreover, when it was too late to remedy the
vele,llsns Government would regret that they had not pro-
-20t17 seed to ensure a tufficieny of autumnal crops. On the
soh! °f March, 20 per cent. of the labourers at present
se led on the public works would be dismissed,
Ns a' there was nothing for them to fall back upon,
tr,ii Act would have the effect of increasing the
Shoe', and suffering of Leland. A good deal of land would be
sil:ther thrown out of cultivation in consequence of the de-
bd asn of Government net to allow the holders temporary relief,t
ne was fully convinced that the measures of Government
his e (mite inefficient to meet the emergency, he should give
seeikuoPort to the Bill before the House, because he was glad to
fellet" at anything which was calculated to prevent some of his
e3ri w; beings from dying of starvation. Still, he felt
teteLneeed the measure would never succeed. Its direct
late ""eY was to encourage rather than suppress pauper
and he was very much afraid it would ultimately
el eerit° an augmentation of thepaupers of the country, which
hard—Y amounted to between and three millions. But he
4124 still stronger objection to this Bill. It must inevitably
. the small ratepayer. There were many industrious per-
pon_ in Ireland who contributed towards the support of the
ist4r in the workhouses who themselves would be reduced to
te tnPeTtarn, if they were called upon to increase their payments
sietniamtain an extensive system of outdoor relief. He had a
Sere." of letters in his possession, written by persons in da-
b "t parts of Ireland, complaining of the clause which
lernPosed to increase the number of ex-officio guardians.
in"., one of these letters he found that in one
stance, the election of two gentlemen as ex officio guardians
st? „refused, on account of their known liberal views, namely,
es.` Wm. Sommerville and the Marquis of Headford. If the
na: •
.U4CIO clause were carried, it would open the doors still fur-
tithrer to religious dissensions, for in many parts of Ireland the
estestants might predominate, while in another the Catholics
rnight be in the majority, and the result of the passing of this
e
tense would be to increase religious dissensions in Ireland.
Ile did not wish to cast any slur upon those gentlemen who
Were eligible to become ex officio guardians. No doubt they
were highly est'rnable in their private characters as country
gentlemen, but they were but men, and he did not wish Co
trust them with the power of limiting the operation of a Bill
Which taxed themselves for the maintenance of the poor.
Now the Noble Lord had called upon Irish Members, if they
"aid do so, to propose a better measure. He was not pre-
ptred to say that he was in possession of a better measure, but
ad he beers asked to advise her Majeste's Ministers upon the
akbjects he would have recommended them to pass a very
tstr_itingent poor-law of a temporary character.—( Cheers.) The
Truei ee advanced was nothing more than money extracted from
ystiird tes means of a meastire passed n opposition to the
Led peen cd the Irish people He thought that a larger loan than
ef i• ve,en advanced would have been nothing more than an act
it 4Q,:ttlseQ• At the time of the union of the two countries
censidered that Ireland should not bear a full
V°Pore
lstt of the charge of the public debt, and the Act of
liabi°etislPressly enacted that no equalisation of the taxes and
w*ere es should take place unless the condition of Ireland
ee '0 be permanently and materially improved. If there
therefere, any meaning in words, he contended that the
*Heed Parliament in 1816 most illegally and unconstitution-
ort"Pnsed, by means of the Consolidation Act, the liabilities
the Nitand, and which, it was expressly stated at the time ef
thei.„lninns should not be borne by Ireland. He thought,
leen`'°re. that as some reparation for the injustice done, that at
°rise large loan should be made to Ireland. But, after
If it hat Was the charity that had been afforded to Ireland?
gi,e .was an actual grant, it would be no more than justice to
eta Its but it was nothing more than a loan, one half of which
the lYylinced upon the security of the property of Ireland, and
l'henttler was to be repaid in part of the taxation of the country.
etiii charity of individuals in the country had been most liberal
efe,Pt,aiseworthy, but the charity (if such it could be called)
tiee at House was of the most niggardly and beggarly descripe
slew He thought that the loan ought to have been a great
ire„ Larger than it was. The Gevernraent ought also to have
err:alert a tax upon the rich absentee, and not attempted. to
ti;4 down the poor ratepayers of - Ireland by the imposition
~e. proposed law. Irish Alembers had been taunted by the
Irett°ll—What would the advocates of repeal do if the union
ere: rePealed ? Why, where was the lower depth to which that
rsecirtnnate country could have fallen than that which it has al-
every reached under the legislation of this country? If, how
tike' they could obtain the repeal of the union, they would
hhitt immediately. There were ample resources in Ireland
Uses,'" needed to be developed, and which could be applied for
rnefit of the country if there were a Paliament sitting theee.
the "ad heard mere thanence in that House a great talk to
th-„eff,ect that taxation should be increased in Ireland. He
eneints however, that it would be much the better course tocoellystur to remove the feelings which had been created in
141 t t'tylence of the measures passed for Ireland during the
Of the
cou years by equalising the condition of the various classes
t iLor
, ry.
CoURTEN AY felt great pleasure in being able to
his most cordial support to the measure before the
4-4' If he had looked at this measure unconnected with
the
tahleth measures which he hoped to see shortly laid upon
,a.
eser of the House he should feel indeed that it was a
ware not entitled to, his support. He would impress upon
eednourable Members connected with Ireland, the necessity of
leiwefiaaoUring, not only as Members of that House, but also as
nrdss by every means to ameliorate the condition of all
of the countr • He would ask what were they to do
sll; the existing sta)te. of things in Ireland ? The Noble Lord
len"e head of the Government had put that question to the
teen, tation that had waited upon him. He (Lord Courtenay)
Vit'iessed that he had yet heard no satisfactory reply to it.
touZi regard to the Labour-rate Act of last session, he was
api;t" to say that though he could not altogether
re ',„'r° of it, he thought it had been the
hei.-"a of saving thousands of people from the
igtll°4 O starvation. The system of out-door relief proposed
tt Present Bill was, in his opinion, sufficiently hedged round
th!estrictions to prevent any abuse. He thought, however,
; Wisest course would be to limit the out-door relief to the
fed and infirm, so as to make room in the house
-r the ehle-bodied. If they did this the law of
visagrkstcY would be rendered unnecessary. —(Hear, hear.) He
';l9llo,rted the proposition as a whole, because it appeared to
Iltml 'aught with the greatest good to the people of Ireland.
would operate as a tax upon absenteeism, and incite the
ltetindee proprietors to give additional employment to the desti-
on.e details,
tste Poor on
hethweoiurledstates. Without pledging himself to all
1 the Bill. give his cordial support to the principle
Sir D
expr ENHANI NORREYS did not agree in the opinions
rier !meet by Mr. John O'Connell, with respect to the man-
/Jill which ex-officio guardians where constituted to the
tha ,! instead of exciting it would be the means of allaying
that "Rtntis differences that the Hon. Gentleman anticipated
kern" would excite. He then proceeded to advert to the state-
-14,0' of Sir Benjamin Hail with respect to Mallow and other
fes--,kie and contended that England herself was to blame
Pso `"e state of things that was to be seen in Ireland
the the days of Henry the Second to the present time, since
use rst connexion of the two countries, nothing but misery
the itPPression have been the portion of Ireland. Wha were
Fos rtoll landlords but what England had made hems? lt
Of all very
well fur England to make the landlords
had
Ireland her scape-goats. Now, he would ask,
dirt she not beers always making them do her
reed. work ?--(Laughter.) As long, as they could, they
te,ra the Irish landlords their tools. As long as aye could
Ileo"14 nu had sowed religious dissensions among the Irish
to e,, and enabled the landlords, who were her instruments,
-tat,er,etse dominion over the leaseholders, and keep them in a
tie* °f serfdom, tint now when the pockets of the people of
', Oh country were touched, they turned round and said,
state ',ewe , do not want you any longer." Look at the
tient' things which has sprung up under your mismanage
he de You must now bear the responsibility of all these evils.
Isediin_t,ed emphatically that the guardians of the poor in Ire-
In auadesire to cheat the poor, as had been imputed to them.
bet trlngland the poor-laws fell upon the occupier—( Hear) ;
nceu,ieirelorld they fell upon the landlords alone, and not the
Positln r, 0 that there was a material difference between the
the ipi-n °f English and Irish landlords; but if the support of
entil4°`: Were made a national charge, the Irish landlords
i,"tent urge the objections they had urged, and would be
ereth ed to bear their fair share in the support of their poorer
reu• To show
e importancenil u. of rating electoral divisions,
thegt state the
that the poor-rate of the town of Mallow was 2s.
tear itemod, but only 2id. inChurchtewn, an agricultural village
a Statel_th" showing the impolicy of union rating; and by
that 30,0ent with which he had been furnished, it appeared
esene
e", Persons who had been cleared from estates must be-
dety t(,°argeable to the Mallow district. Ile had felt it his
pessibi:fouble the House with these remarks, because it was
of 01, Bril might be compelled to be absent when the clauses
Mr vecarne minutely under consideration.
neglect "SEY denied that the landlords of Ireland had
rind th,e,n„their duty as landlords and as guardians of the poor,
he of ;I: t hey had given niggardly contributions towards the re-
" r'oora tad convellecithera to resort to the public w oar.

They had admitted more people into the workhouses than they
were in ordinary cases calculated to hold. They had also ex-
pended large sums in drainage, in order to give employment ti
the poor, and 100,1'00/. had been contributed by local com-
mittees for the relief of the poor. He regretted that the Go-
vernment proposed to institute the out-door relief test, because
he believed it would open a door to fraud. He quoted the
opinions of Mr. Lewis and air. Twisledon, Assistant Poor-la,
Commissioners, to show the great disadvantages which could
not fail to attend the adoption of a large plan
of out-door relief. They agreed in opinion that
such a system would impoverish those who, like agricultural
labourers, had some work to do, and would throw a burden on
the landlords which they would be unable to hear. Until the
social condition of Ireland was assimilated to that of England,
such a poor-law as the one proposed would be found most impo-
litic, and Ireland, instead of being, as he hoped, the right arm of
England, would become a far greater difficulty than heretofore.
Major LAYARD fully agreed with the Hon. Gentleman
who had just addressed the House, that it would have beer
happier for the House and for the country if, instead of at-
tacking the landlords of Ireland, a closer attention had been
paid to the circumstances of the calamity with which they had
now to deal in Ireland. He (Major Layard) was one of thou
who, ever since he had known Ireland, now fifteen years, hoe
been convinced that no good would ever be done there without
a poor-law. He had prophesied, when the poor-law whirl
now existed was passed, the necessity would very shortly
arise for the adoption of a measure of a wider character and
a more extensive operation. He, fur one, was an advocate
of a system of out-door relief. If such a system were not
now brought forward, how could they expect any law, situated
as Ireland now -was, to be beneficial to the people ? The
workhouses multi not now receive one-twentieth of the ap-
plicants for relief, and many thousands would inevitable
perish if they were compelled to wait while the poor-house,
were being built.—( Hear, hear.) He admitted that many
very great difficulties surrounded this question. He ac-
knowledged that from the position in which they were placed
many of the landed proprietors of Ireland could not but
grudge taking that part which they were called upon to
play in coming to the aid of their countrymen ; but the
majority of the people should be the consideration for that
House to decide upon, and though it might be proved that
seme few would suffer, still the good of the many must
prevail.—(llear, hear.) It was not the fault of the people
that they needed the charity of the House. There were in-
dustrious men who had no opportunity of earning a
heel hood by the sweat of their brow ; and there were the
wretched and the pauperised, who by no exertion of their own
could rise from the state to which they had been reduced.—
( Hear.) The Government deserved great credit for proposing
the 10th clause of the Bill, by which it would be enacted, that
after 2s. Gd. in the pound had been paid out of the borough-
rate the expenditure would then come on the electoral district
The towns would then be relieved of an enormous burden of
vagrancy and mendicancy, and the tax would be equally
divided over the laud. He had heard Hon. Members threaten
to bring forward a Bill to impose an absentee-tax ; but their
object would effectually be attained by the measure now before
the House. A poor-law was the best absentee-tax. When a
poor-law was carried for Ireland it would be the interest of
many proprietors to remain resident on their own estates, in
order that, by extra care and carefulness, they might compen-
sate themselves for that loss to which hey would be exposed
when they had to maintain the poverty of the country. Their
only alternative would be to furnish employment to these
dependent on them, and in this way the great capabilities
of the country would bo fully developed. They would not
be able to carry an absentee-tax for Ireland, without im-
posing one also upon England. Hitherto, the poor had sup-
ported the paupers, and the time had come when the land and
the landed gentry ought to support the poor; and un-
til they adopted some such measure, the interests
of that country never could be advanced. ( Hear,)
Not having much property in Ireland, he might not be a suffi-
cient witness, but he could not get rid of the impression that
the landlords ought to be responsible for the support of the
poor. He gave the present Government full credit for the
exertions they had made for the improvement of the poor le
Ireland ; and he trusted they would be carried out. When
the Noble Lord who introduced the measure for the formation
of railways had stated that this could only be a temporary
measure, he was anxious for a permanent measure for the
relief of the poor.
Lord JOHN MANNERS conceived that unless some
permanent measure were introduced, it would be worse
than useless, for, unless that were done, it was only weak-
ness to legislate. Out of a population of five hundred thou-
sand, this measure was only calculated to give relief to
three hundred thousand labourers. Admitting that this
measure was calculated to administer relief to six
hundred thousand heads cf families, yet it was evi-
dently inadequate to the circumstances of the case,
They had then to look to the measures of the Government.
and he must confess that the measures which they proposed was
totally inadequate for the purpose which they professed to
serve, and admitting all the facts which the Noble Lord hail
adduced at the commencement of the session for the improve-
ment of the waste lands in Ireland, he still could not
perceive that there was anything like an assurance that
these measures would answer the purpose for which they
were propounded.—( Hear, hear.) On the remarks of his No-
ble Friend the Member for Lynn, he would offer no comments,
but he might say, that on the facts which he had adduced no
one could express the slightest doubt. That Noble Lord had
stated that by his project employment would be provided for
upwards of five thousand heads of families as su-
perintendents of the works which he had advocated,
and none of those assertions had been contradicted
and then the House looked to the opportunity which was af-
forded for the employment of the people, he thought that the
House would be assured that the measures of the Government
would in no way prove superior for the advantage of the people.
Admitting that 5,000 heads of families were to be provided for
by the scheme of waste lands, he then came to ask what was
to be effected by any scheme for increased emigration. The
Noble Lord had said that he did not intend greatly to increase
the facilities for emigration, and supposing that the increase
would accommodate 5,000 heads of families more, they then
came to the extended fisheries. With all these schemes—the
drainage—the education scheme—and the fisheriel—publie
works—there could not be more than 100,000 heads of families
provided for. He asked then, what became of the half million
of persons which remained.—( Hear, hear.) What was to
become of them, and what measures did the Government
intend to adopt for their relief. He would put before the
House the reasons which induced him to think that they had
still population to provide for. He agreed that they had a right
to expect increased exertions on the part of the Irish landlord,
and increased cultivation of the land. They ought to rely
greatly on the Irish landlord for the employment of these la-
bourers, and therefore they ought to take care to give such a
poor-law as would not depress, but facilitate the exertions of the
Irish proprietors. The measure was one of the greatest im-
portance, and ought to be approached with the greatest caution.
It was a measure which ought to enable Irishmen to look back
with pleasure, instead of sorrow, to the period of the calamity
which afflicted them. He felt that a portion of this Bill tended
in the most direct manner to interfere with the exertions of
Irish landlords. It made no difference between those landlords
who spent their incomes in the improvement of their estates
and the amelioration of the condition of the peasantry, and
those who spent their incomes uselessly at Bath or at Naples.
The present measure would destroy the last remnant of that
ancient parochial and territorial system which had
tended so much to the benefit of the country,
Let them conceive the feelings of the man who was rated for
his portion of the expenses, when he had exerted himself to
the utmost in the maintenance of his own poor, and who had
forborne to place a burden upon those who were in distress
let them conceive his feelings when rated equally with the
man whose tenantry knew or saw nothing of him, except at
certain periodical visits. He could not bring himself to sup-
port such a system—a system which pressed equally upon the
man who did his duty and the man who neglected it in every
respect. He thought, unless the House would show a bolder
wisdom than had hitherto been shown by her Majesty's Go-
vernment, they would extend a curse rather than a boon to
Ireland, by an extended poor-law. They should make Irish
property answerable to the Irish poor, but not in the way
in which her Majesty's Government proposed to do. Unless
that care were taken in imposing a Poor-law upon Ireland
session after session, would Irish misery form a never ending
.heme of discussion in that House, and one which would never
be properly remedied unless greater caution were adopted.—
( Hear, hear). He agreed with the Noble Lord (Lord J.
Russell) in the hope that the old feuds and old jealousies of
bygone years would be extinguished in Ireland. He hoped
that in this great affliction that had fallen on the nation those
old jealousies would he buried in oblivion, and that the future
historian, after recording the sad struggles between the two
rival communions and the two hostile races, and after painting
the horrors of this eventful warfare, would be able in a new
chapter to say—
" Henceforth all discord ends,
One common woe bath made two rivals friends."
Mr. LA BOUCHER E said that he should not direct his at-
tention to the details of the Bill before the House, several of
which were most important, but to that which he believed to
be the main principle of the measure. He should not, there-
fore follow the Noble Lord who had just sat down into the ques-
tion of whether the system of rating should be placed upon the
unions or upon the electoral divisions; nor should he advert to
the proposition made by several gentlemen, of increasing the
number of ex -officio guardians ; because he thought that in-
stead of mixing up all these details into one general description
it was the rule of that House to consider them severally in
committee, when the clauses relating to them were brought
forward ; and it would be of more use to con-
fine themselves to the general principles of the measure.
That principle was one of the most important kind—it was
whether the system of out-door relief should, however
alight, be extended to the able-bodied poor in Ireland. He
confessed that, for his own part, he should be willing to take
the justification of the measure which had been proposed by
her Majesty's Government from the speeches which had been
made in vindication of its principle by gentlemen connected
with Ireland, and which had been addressed to the House in
the course of the evening. He alluded particularly to those
speeches made by the Noble Lord the Member for Down-
shire, his Hon. Friend the Member for Waterford, and the
Hon. and Gallant Member representing Londonderry. They
were three gentlemen entitled, by their experience as Irish
landlords, their intimate acquaintance with the local concerns
of Ireland, and the honourable anxiety which they had
evinced in their respective localities to improve the
condition of the people around them, as well as any
Members of that House could be, to express an opinion upon
this subject. Those three gentlemen could not be influenced
by the disposition attributed to the Irish Members by some of
the English Members of that House, namely—that of support-
ing the measures devised for the relief of Ireland,
lreHlra. withoutd,Aiemher
any
individual regard to Irish interests. T
had
said that he opposed the introductionwas introducing a dangerous principle into operation I
of out-door
question was, a great calamity had
potato-crop had failed, and henceforth theovelgapkeeanpleroeflanlrde,latah,ei
must either starve or be enable to earn wages. Such
was the state of things, and he said it was no longer
possible to leave them to chance, or to the support derived from
voluntary contributions, but that a provision must be made by
the Legislature to support those persons. They had now ar-
rived, if not to the end of the discussion, at least to the second
night of it, and he had heard nn answer to the question pro-
pounded by the Noble Lord at the head of the Government in
bis opening statement, which was the alternative before them,
either to maintain the pemde or allow them to starve. No one
had said let them be left to perish, or that England, or the
imperial treasury, should maintain them. On the contrary,
though it was admitted that Ireland at present bad peculiar
claims on this country, it was held right that the destitute people of
Ireland should be supported by the property and the soil of Ire-
rand. This was the principle of the present Bill, which he had
no doubt would be agreed to by an immense majority, not only
of English, but of Irish Members, and be made the law of the
land. The Noble Lord who had just sat down, stated that he
was not against the measure, but he objected to it, because it
was not accompanied by other large and comprehensive mea-
sures. He (Mr. Labouchere) admitted that the 11111 should he
viewed in connexion with the general scheme of the
Government, but he could not but see that the
main objection of the Noble Lord arose from the
rejection of the favourite scheme for railways in-
troduced by the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn. This
constituted the main objection of the Noble Lord, but he (Mr.
Labouchere) could not see how the measure could have met
evils of the case. The Hon. Member for the University of
Dublin had referred to the state of the county of Mayo, and
asked how it was possible for the proprietors, under such cir-
cumstances, to support the destitute? This was an 'extreme
case which the Hon. and Learned Member cited. But sup-
left as it was, he (Mr. Labouchere)
W.itild the property of the pio:
povostaindg thatk boot l‘lahyte er was
lant

prietors be sufficient to support the destitute without external
Aid% He believed that it would not unless great exertion was
nade, and it was to stimulate this that the present Bill was pre-
eared. He believed that it would he impossible to struggle
,hrotieh without great exertion on the part of Irishmen them-
selves; but with his knowledge of Irishmen and Irish energy,
t was his belief that the poor-law would prove a stimulus,
end, instead of crushing, would rouse and invigorate them.
—( Hear, hear.) A good deal of discussion had turned on:the
conduct of the Irish landlords, and sweeping condemnations
had been made. He agreed with several Hon. Members, that
great injustice had been done them, as it was unfair, in esti-
elating their conduct, to leave out of view the pecuniary dif-
ficulties in which they were placed. And he believed that if
as great exertion had been made to bring to light the conduct
of those who had done their duty in the crisis, as had been
iispleyed in bringing obloquy on others, a very different im-
pression would have been produced on the House
and the country. He thought that if the con.
duct of many of the small proprietors, especially
the great sacrifices of the clergy had been placed before them
and the public, it would be seen that great injustice had been
lane to the proprietors of Ireland as a whole. At the same
time, he must say that the Legislature had not received from
others that support which had been expected. He never liked
to give names, but as several Scotch proprietors had been
most deservedly mentioned for the exertions they had made to
relieve the destitute, he wished to name one Irish landlord who
could bear comparison with them, and he was but one of many
others he might cite. He knew nothing of the gentleman
personally, and the information he had derived was from one
f the officers employed under the Government in that part of
the country where the gentleman resided. The Right
Honourable Gentleman here read an extract from the let-
ter of the officer, which stated that Sir Robert Booth
the gentleman referred to, resided in the county of Sligo,
where he had a large estate. He had at his own place opened
two soup boilers of 140 gallons each, and daily distributed 180
gallons of soup. During six days in each week, he also distri-
buted 180 loaves of bread above 4lbs. weight each daily, be-
sides selling 30 tons of Indian corn in the week at a reduced
price.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Besides this, he distributed
quantities of biscuit, oatmeal, and other articles 01 food. He
tad, at the date of the letter, 5'27 tons of Indian corn in stand,
and had ordered 2,375 tons of Indian corn more, besides a
4uantity of beans, peas, and other produce, for the consump-
tion of the neighbourhood. He had expressed a hope that the
Government would assist him in the matter which they had done.
This Gentleman had never desired his name to be mentioned,
though it deserved to be, as well as many others in Ireland
who had acted in an equally meritorious manner. At the same
,itne it was equally-true that many proprietors who were deriv-
ing large incomes from Ireland had totally neglected their
fluty, and failed in contributing to meet the destitution which
orevailed. He rejoiced, therefore, that the present Bill would
iblige them to contribute in purse to the support of the
lestitute. It was important that these parties should
knew that if they did not exert themselves to
provide employment for the people, they would have
to support them out of their incomes.—(Hear, hear.) This,
ee thought, was the most valuable portion of the Bill. He
'sad now stated the general reasons why he trusted the House
would assent to the principle of the Bill. Having agreed to
hat, the details of it could be better considered in committee ;
IS they would then receive all the consideration which they
leserved. In conclusion, he trusted they would now affirm the
main principle of the measure, which was that Irish property
hould be charged with Irish distress, and leave all the details
to be fully and carefully discussed afterwards.—( Cheers.)
Mr. S. O'BRIEN said that, with reference to the people
of England, it was impossible to exaggerate their munificence
to the Irish people ; but he had said, and he repeated the as.
sertion, that a national government in the country would have
been able to guarantee every individual in that country from
starvation. He was not disposed to question the liberality of
Parliament. He considered 10,000,000/. was a sacrifice made
by them, but he believed that the money which had been
,xpended might have been done so more advanta.
reously for the people.--(Hear, hear,) He considered
that if the State said to the Irish railway companies
hat they would advance half of the capital pari passu necessary
ia advance their property, a great and material benefit would,
have been cc.nferred. No reproductive work had been under-
taken for a long time, and the capital which could have been
ealled forth was suffered to remain quiescent and languish. A
great part of the session has been lost in attacks upon the
Irish proprietors. He was not about to undertake their
defence, but this he would say, that there were instances
of generosity and liberality which equalled, if they
lid not surpass any that could be brought forward. If the
Irish party effected but a friendly intercourse between Gentle-
men on the opposite side of the House, they would have
achieved a great good.—(Hear, hear.) He was not a party to
their resolutions, and he, consequently, was not subject to the
animadversions which had been cast upon them, for, in his
opinion, a system of poor-laws was absolutely necessary for the
welfare of the country.
Mr. ROEBUCK, the opening portion of whose speech, as
well as various other parts, were perfectly inaudible in the
gallery, was understood to say, that the Hon. Member for the
University of Dublin had, on a recent occasion, stated to the
House that he was perfectly at a loss to discover the motives
for his (Mr. Roebuck's) conduct. The amenities—continued
the Hon. and Learned Member—of that gentleman's mind
could suggest to him only one motive as actuating his, which
was that of English spite towards Irish landlords. Spite, against
whom? against what he (Mr. Shaw) was pleased to call the
landlords of Ireland. He (Mr. Roebuck) did not know who
the landlords of Ireland were; he had never been able to dis-
tinguish or to learn who those gentlemen were. For his part
he thought that the real
.landlords of Ireland were the tax-
gatherer and the mortgagee. Now, he never expressed any
',pinion against the tax-gatherer or against the mort-
gagee. He was perfectly aware that there were
many persons in Ireland called landlords, who fancied
themselves to be proprietors of land, but who
had not the means of supporting the dignity belonging to their
station, as such, and he (Mr. Roebuck) had often suggested
that such persons should be removed from their false position,
which they occupied as merely nominal proprietors of land in
Ireland, in order that Ireland might be disencumbered
from those who were hanging, like a dead weight, upon her
energies arid resources, and allow the real proprietors of her
land at once to be called into activity and exertion, and be
made instrumental in promoting the interests which they
possessed in that country. What did the House, however, now
propose to do. He would venture to say that, upon the pre-
sent occasion, there were two separate questions before the
House, and two really different and distinct things spoken of
by Hon. Gentlemen who had spoken upon those questions.
Some Hon. Gentlemen said t‘ Oh, we are agreed upon all
things except upon the principle of out-door relief;" and then
directly some other Hon. and Irish Member would get up and
make a speech against all poor-laws whatever. If the House
would permit him, he would dwell for a few moments on these
circumstances, and then say a word or two with respect
to the real feelings of Honourable Gentlemen opposite,
What was it then that the House was endeavouring to do ?
and what was the mode in which it was proposed to brine
about the end it bad in view ? At the present moment there
appeared to be in Ireland a remarkable collision of classes.
Large masses of her labouring population were not subsisting
upon wages but depended for their subsistence upon their
small holdings of land. By a peculiarity connected with that
country the landlords have been induced to divide
their property into innumerable small portions, and
the result of their infinitessimal division of holdings
would be. that if anything like what had happened
last year should occur again, the same disastrous results would
take place as had marked the history of Ireland during the
present year. A large multitude of persons were dependent
upon these small patches of land for their maintenance and sup-
port, and if a failure should take place, or anything like a gene-
ral calamity come upon the people, a general and universal
famine was the result. There was also another peculiarity at-
tached to these small holdings of land, which was, the agrarian
disturbances which always overspread the country. These
disturbances arose entirely out of these small holdings. It was
not because one portion of the people were starving and another
was not, that agrarian disturbances took place. It was because
those small holdings of land were essentially necessary for the
existence of the people. The law had not been their protector,
and the consequence had been that the people had had
recourse to every species and system of self-defence for
the purpose of maintaining their holdings. But they had
been driven to this by dire necessity ; the very exigencies
of their condition had driven them to attempt a stand against
the tyranny of their imperious landlords, who strove upon
every slight pretence, and upon the most inetlicient grounds to
eject them from their holdings. They were not so in England.
And why ? The poor man knew full well that there was a poor
house and a poor-law to afford him shelter. In Ireland, on
the contrary, the poor man saw death—nothing but death
staring him and his family in the face, and he was compelled out
of dire necessity to fall back upon some means of self-defence.
by which they could maintain their holdings. against the do-
mination of their landlords, and hence it was that conspiracies
spread from one end of the country to the other, and threats
from shore to shore. Hence it was that numerous combine.

tions had been formed for the purpose of carrying out this
wild spirit of justice, and the instruments or assassins of the
combinations had been brought from the north and from the
south in order to carry into execution the wild determinations
of gangs of secret conspirators. What was their object ? It
was nothing more than to maintain the poor man upon his
holding, and to protect him by a species of wild justice in the
absence of milder forms of law against the imperious domi-
nation of the merely nominal proprietors of the soil. Such was
the condition of the large labouring population of Ireland,
and unless England stepped in and brought some measure to
bear upon this state of things, such would continue to be their
wretched condition. And the same wild spirit of justice, and
anhappy, and unchristian mode of maintaining the means of
that existence would continue. The Hoare would, however,
by the adoption of the proposed measure bring the people under
the mild spirit of the law, and make the property of Ireland
the means of providing for the existence of the poor, insure a
spirit of mildness, gentleness, and subservience to the law, in
place of the conspiracies, and the ill-feelings, and the secret
societies which previously existed. Who were the ac-
cusers of these righteous measures ? The landlords of
Ireland. It was a noble sight to see the land-
lords of Ireland laying aside their persenal conside-
rations, putting aside all their feelings of aggrandisement, and
devoting themselves to the improvement of the condition
of the people, but there was not a more degrading or a more
debasing sight than to see those who were rich in this world's
goods banded together for purposes of defence and aggression
against the poor, and bringing to bear all the power which
their station and intellect could command, to crush what should
be considered by all right-thinking persons as the rights of the
poor. Could he not then ask the House to look upon this
picture and upon that. The people of England asked that a
law equal to that which existed in England should be passed
for Ireland. He would not be told that that which was bene-
ficent legislation for the poor in England would be the ruin of
Ireland. But that was an argument which bad been very
strongly put forth by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member
for the University of Dublin (Mr. Shaw). Ireland, said that
sßlhrieogluhalntddlH.i
koenDt.
Did
khneowm Gentleman,
ewahna tt
ht
ehweina
igrouhnitsn
Hon.. df .
her
GHweeon
k(l
eil Inmlgra.n Rmoee
abnu
population,tcbky)
or the narrow-minded sects of one of which he had been a
favourite born child—sects that instilled feelings of the bitterest
hostility against the English into the mind of the Irish people?
—( A cry of " Divide.") Divide ! there would be no division ;
there would be much talk, but no man had pretended that
this question would go to a division.—(Hear, hear.)
Now, in what position were they placed with regard to this
question? It was no longer doubtful that Ireland must have
a real and efficient poor-law, similar in spirit to the poor.law
of England. Not only the feeling in Ireland, but the intel-
ligent opinion of this country, rendered the enactment os
such a law necessary.—( Hear, hear.) Such a poor-law
meant that there was a right, on the part of
the destitute poor to relief—( Hear, hear)—a right
to receive relief somewhere, and in some satisfactory manner.
It did not my
• olve the law of settlement—it did not involve
the law of removal, and those points they did nut quarrel
about. Now, they already had the houses and the adminis-
trators of the law ; they had got the law of settlement and the
law of removal, and all that Government wished to add was
out-door relief, upon its being clearly ascertained that the re-
.
elpien • t was really destitute and in want. Irish gentlemen,
however objected to this, and in doing soh would seem to argue
that Irish landlords ought not to be Galled upon to pay in this
way for the relief of the poor. And whenthese gentlemen dis-
cussed:lrish questi ms,the question itself invariably meant them-
selves. Indeed, when Ireland was talked about by them, Ireland
meant nothing more nor less than Irish landlords,
and because they were called upon to fulfil those duties their
property imposed upon them, they declared that Ireland was
being ruined.—(Hear, bear, and laughter.) Now, far from its
being ruined, Ireland was just in a condition Whet} it Yfai moat

likely to advance in the progress of civilisation.—(Hear, hear.)
Ireland, according to Irish Members, had been retrograding
since the Union, but he had lately seen more and better pigs
and cattle imported into Liverpool than were brought
from Ireland twenty years ago. The fact was, Ireland had
improved within the last ten or twenty years mole than any
other country in Europe, and it was well known that those
who had a bright arid fair prospect before them invariably
complained more than those who were sunk into the depths of
degradation.—( Hear, hear.) One Hon. Gentleman had that
afternoon told them that the Irish landlords had made
presentments of two sums of 86,000/. and 68,000.1., being
2s. in the pound of the -shole rental of the country ; but who
paid the money ? Why, the English Exchequer; so that it
was England that paid equal to 2s. in the pound of the rental
of the country.
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN—Yes ; but the money is to be re-
paid.
Mr. ROEBUCK never trusted such repayments. One
shilling paid down was worth twenty shillings promised. Then,
again, it was said the landlords were ruined.
An Hoes. Aleatean—No, no.
Mr. ROEBUCK—WeII, if they were not, why didn't they
pay ?—( Hear and laughter.) They must either admit that
they were ruined and could not pay, or they must confess that
they were not ruined, and pay.—( Hear, hear.) Another
mode of meeting Irish questions was the cry of " Let me
have a national party, then Ireland will be safe." They had
lately had a specimen of the " national party," and,
when the party met in Palace-yard, they found the
Hon. Member for Limerick, declaring he would have nothing
to do with their acts, and flying to the east, while Lord
Mounteashel, being of a similar mind, marched towards the
Treasury ; and what with some flying to the east, and others to
the west, two gentlemen were left to call themselves the " Na-
tional party of Ireland." Until sectarian differences were got
rid of he had no hope for a national party. Until he saw the
Hen. and Learned Member for the University of Dublin lying
quietly down with the Hon. Member for Cork, and he found
them united together in harmony and good fellowship upon all
points, he should have no faith in the truth or sincerity of their
reconciliation. But the fire of bigotry still smouldered in the
breast of the Honourable and Learned Member for the
University of Dublin, and it might still break out in all
the fury of 1810, or fifteen years ago, when the
Emancipation Bill was being agitated. The fire was not yet
dead. They had a proof of this the other day when the Hon.
Member for Kinsale brought forward a proposition to rend
away the last ragged remnant of olden bigotry, when that flight
Hon. Gentleman and that party who seemed to be in t xtasiee for
the social improvement of Ireland, voted against it. The Noble
Lord the Member for Lynn, did the same. He begged the Noble
Lord's pardon. The Noble Lord displayed more liberality than
the rest, and recorded his vote in favour of the
Were not these frequent and significant instances of what was
now going on in Ireland? And did they not show that the
good of Ireland was to be found, not in those hollow-hearted
coalitions and interested confederations, bu: in the good sense
of the English and Scotch people on this side of the Channel?
He felt every hour the pressure from without with regard to
the condition of that country. He found that from every part
of the country they were asked how it was that a representa-
tive assembly like that—representing the working millions.of
this great country—threw their shield over those who deserted
the duties of their situation, and abandoned the unfortunate
beings who had an undeniable claim on their protection and
support.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman, the
Member for the University of Dublin, had been casting about
for the motives which influenced him ( Mr. Roebuck) in ex-
posing the criminal delinquency of the landlords of Ireland,
and set his conduct down to popularity hunting. He would
not stop to notice these imputations. He did not deny
that he sought his country's approbation, and he thought he
would take the most successful steps to obtain it by imposing a
stringent poor-law en Ireland, that would make the lindlords
of that country understand their own interest, and discharge
their duties to their destitute poor.—( Hear, hear.) He would
ask the Hon. Gentleman ( the Recorder for Dublin) to meet
any portion of his countrymen, and he (Mr. Roebuck) would
meet any portion of his on this subject, and he had no hesita-
tion in saying that not a man in any town of England would
be found who would dare to oppose such a proposition.—( Hear,
hear.) And yet one half of it only had been sought to be
sanctioned by that House; a partial application of it was
merely proposed, at present ; but as sure as the sun
would rise to-morrow—and he had no doubt of that—
(Laughter) a long time would not elapse before
that measure would be carried out in all its entirety—a mea-
sure which was a great act of justice due to the MO; people—
due to them from England which had too long neglected and
suffered their just rights to be withheld, and had too long
fostered the pernicious system which had tended to demoralise
them, and generate those social and moral evils to which Ire-
land was now a prey.—(Hear, hear.) And as he OM hope
that the real benefit which he anticipated from this measure
would be worked out for the country, he would support the-
proposition of the Noble Lord, and it should be his future
object to show hew inadequate for the relief of the present
evils of Ireland was that proposition, which he would now most
cordially support.—( Cheers. )
Colonel VERNER disapproved of the measure. It proposed
to he a Bill for the relief of the Irish, but he believed it would
create greater, far greater evils than it purported to remove.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said he was anxious to offer a few
observations in reply to the statements of many Lion. Members
who had addressed the House, as he understood it was not the
wish of the House that the debate should be adjourned.—
(Cries of " Hear, hear.") What he complained of
was, not that Honourable Gentlemen in this country
supported this poor-law for Ireland and sought the
approbation of their countrymen in doing so, hut that in the
discharge of that duty they were in the habit of introducing
topics—and the system was very prevalent amongst the party
of which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman for Bath was a
member—for the sole purpose of aspersing Irish landlords.—
( Hear, hear.) That was all he complained of, as he had, after
the most mature deliberation, come to the conclusion that the
measure was one which it was his duty to support. But the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman had been guilty of much in-
justice. First, he had spoken harshly of the conduct of the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Recorder of Dublin (Mr.
Shaw). He (Mr. M. J. O'Connell) had, during the greater
period of his life, opposed the principles of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, but for nothing did he respect him so much
as for his conduct on the Irish questions, which had come under
the consideration of the House during the present session. Ile
respected him because he believed he had acted conscientiously,
and because he considered he was promoting the advantage of
Ireland by the course he had adopted. But whether they dif-
fered with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman or agreed with
him, he alike censured them ; in fact, he was an apt illustration
of the drummer, who, finding the soldier whom he was punish-
ing did not relish its infliction, exclaimed, " Strike high or low,
nothing will please you." Though a man differed with him in
opinion, he should not use harsh terms towards him. Then he
attacked the Hon. Member for Limerick fur the observations
he made, that he and others intended to vote against certain
portions of the measure, which was must unjust, when
it was borne in mind that both the Honourable
Member for Limerick ( Mr. S. O'Brien) and he, in-
tended to vote in favour of the out-door clauses. The
question of rating divided itself into three braeches—rating
upon unions, upon electoral divisions, and upon smaller portions
of property. He had heard man statements during the course
of the debate, but he confessed he had heard nothing which de-
served the definition of argument. He was in favour of the
tenth clause, which proposed union rating. and when the pro-
per time arrived, he should be ready to state his reasons for
doing so ; but if Hon. Gentlemen could show him that rating
smaller districts would benefit good landlords, and not lead to
the confiscation of property, he should not hesitate to alter his
opinion. Many Hon. Members, in speaking on out-door, reli2f,
had made most extraordinary statements. There were two
provisions in the Bill—one for out-door relief to the helpless
poor, and, second, for affording the same relief to the able •
bodied, which was opposed by many Hon. Gentlemen:; but
to the heavy burdens already imposed
if either clause was to be viewed with apprehension—it was
the first—as there was considerable danger of its adding mate-
riallyopening a door of immorality and fraud. The Irish party who
had been styled the " happy family," had come to the conclu-
siondoo
to oppose the clause which proposed to afford out-
away, and therefore it was their duty to on land, and of
relief, for which he could not help exp-essing his regret. It. was
clear the calamity which had visited Ireland, would not liass
amount
it
of aid to the poor than they had heretofore given' waslt cheaper
to pay rates than to allow a continuance of the existineedr
L' d duress.d n
To restrict it as much as possible to those who are
On the first clause
helpless, and maimed from other causes.
d clause;
he had this objection. Such he mightsay of the -"on
spirit than
give a greater am
but he was glad to say that there was a much betterri
Member for Bath to say that they only the Hon.
had of late prevailed. It might be all very
well
I.:there was
something to be got, but he was happy to
ssltha be gottenp for
sent occasion the agreement was for something totha
than charity to
w he
on the re-
Ireland, and he thought it was something
worse
allege a ainst
raise up the questions of sectarian difference' andh a r ogsit ion
them those differences. Ile regretted that sue
he would look
had ever been made ; bid if he talked of
them, regard to India.
to the propositions of that Hon. Member
withuld not help
With great respect for his talents, he still coted
with regard to
feel-
ing that if the same principle had been
ado')
nt conclusion.
Ireland, that he would come to a very agrees
differe
into
the several
Mr. CALLAGHAN would not entehre
House on the one
questions which had been introduced to
t con n e him-elf to the
before the House. He would simply
matter stated by the Noble Lord with respect to the relief to
the ouse an
be granted to the able •bedied poor outside o
f)
ressing his; opid
only -
with regard to that he was desirous of
House
to the Magis-
nion as to the power to be given by the House
•
testes for granting that relief. In his opinion that power was
h ower had
excessive ; and tie deeply regretted that any suc
been conceded. For his own part, he could not apt
conceive
that such power would be mischievous in the extreme, and
likely to do anything than be of service to the Irish people.
lie would take the liberty of saying to the Noble Lord at the
head of the Government that he (the Noble Lord) had not
sheuld increase the ex-officio
given any one reason why he Id.
guardians. It migh very true to say that e ectora sions
but the truth was, that these divisions sent
ought to be taxed,
balk of their paupers. It was the
into the towns the great
great object in
Ireland to send away their paupers. The No-
ble Lord, to provide for this, the rate
said, that when exceeded
e b should h
Is. 3d. in the pound, the excess s chargeable upon the
Noble Lord ought to know that
general union. The ,that height unless upon
each
the rate could never r
the occasion of a general_ famine like the present.
He thought that the rates for the poor ought to come as a
general charge on the country, and then the rate-payers would
have a better control over the raisingd and expending of the
He adjured the Noble Lor not to listen to the voice
money.
the other, and not to give to any but
of one party or the rate-
for the relief of the
payers the power of taxing poor.
togive
Sir A. BROOKE wished reasons for not giving
his assent to the measure proposed by the Noble Lord. He
thought that the systematic plan of having 800,000 or 900,000
people maintained out
of doors by public works w
tl • as one
most dangerous and fatal to le interests and character
of the Irish people. He did not see any security that the
poor would derive by their
Noble
maintenance
ord
from the Irish property
generally. lie would, ifthe could satisfy him on
these two points, DC very much disposed to support the measure
before the House, but otherwise he should feel justified in op-
posing it. He considered the present time was not the proper
time for such attacks as those made by the Hon, and Learned
Member for Bath, whose speeches contrasted most unfavour-
ably with the calm and temperate address of the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, and the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government, in his statement of Friday
night last.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL begged leave to explain a point
which had been omitted in his statement of Friday night last,
and to which his attention had been drawn by a note he had
received from Lord Monteagle. In the interview ho had had
with the deputation of Irish gentlemen when the subject of
the relief of the peer was; brought under his (Lord John
Russell's) attention, they stated that they were willing to hear
any expense that might be required for the extension and
erection of workhouse accommodation, se as to admit of in-
door relief to the poor. His answer at the time was, that he
did not think the suggestion capable of being
practically
carried into effect.—( Hear.)
The House then went into Committee pro forma, and the
Bill was ordered to be re-committed on Friday next.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL observed, on the Chairman re-
porting progress,
that he hoped there would be no renewal o
the debate on Friday!
DRAINAGE (IRELAND) BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed.
GENERAL REGISTER HOUSE (EDINBURGH) BILL
This Bill was read a second time, and ordered to b e com-
mitted.

MUTINY BILL.
This Bill was also read a :mad time, and ordered to be
Committed a Thursday.