The Sun.
London, England, 1847-01-26 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JANUARY 26, 1847.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF LORDS, Jan. 25.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took hi 3 seat on the Wool-
sack at Five o'clock.

the Government, to the detriment of private em-
ployers, and consequently, no doubt, gre t evils were
generated from diverting labour from that channel—
cultivation of the land from which alone they could
expect to derive permanent improvement. The individual
employer or proprietor was the one most interested,
the one best calculated to employ labour most bene-
ficially in the country. He would now call attention to
the plan of Government. He alluded to the
loan at 31- per cent. for twenty-two years
to the proprietors of land in Ireland, and they
were also to be empowered, if they did not wish to
pay the principal, to pay for it six and half per cente
or he would be enabled to pay it in any way most conve-
nient to themselves, and by that means relieve themselves
at a trifling cost. It was proposed to have extensive
drainage, but it was not intended to interfere
with private speculation in these works, for there
were a great many cases in which private individuals
would be more efficient in carrying out these works.
It was proposed that whore it was essential to the proper
carrying out of certain works a power should be given
to compel other proprietors, who, either through care-
lessness or other causes, refused to co-operate or to
bear their fair share of the incidental cost, to be assessed
for the joint expenses. The result of those measures, in
his opinion, would be that not one proprietor
in Ireland but would be in a condition,
if he so chose, to employ a vast amount
of labour in a manner profitable to both himself
and the labourer, and he did not think so ill of the
landed proprietary of Ireland as to imagine that, with
these facilities, few indeed but would avail themselves
of them immediately, or, at all events, within a very
short time, and thus, from one end of the country
to the other, give employment to the mass of la-
bour, for which, in the ordinary modes, there was
no call. This measure was one of the most important
which it could fall to the lot of her Majesty's Govern-
ment to bring before their Lordships, and it was one
which had long occupied his deep and earnest
attention. Pending the beneficial results to be
anticipated from these measures, there must ensue
much scarcity, and even famine, among those who
were infirm and without employment, and the
Government proposed that food should be distributed
amengst such persons, but it was determined that no
person was to receive relief, except those who could not
possibly be relieved in the workhouse, and in aiding
those persons the establishment of soup kitchens, in the
most destitute districts, was considered as the
"lost effectual. That relief it was supposed might be
paid for by a rate—half to levied on the place itself,
and the other half to be supplied by Government. It
was to be a temporary measure, and only to cover the
intermediate passage from one kind of labour to the
other, which would be sure to be attended with more
or less misery and destitution, until all those works
became connected with individual enterprise.—(Hear.)
It was also intended to furnish loans of another de-
scription. Serious apprehensions were entertained
with respect to the ensuing harvest, and from autho-
rities which he bad before him, he was sorry to say those
fears appeared but too well founded. This arose partly
from an unaccountable indisposition on the part of the
labourers to leave the public works for the farm, and
partly from the inability of the small landholders to buy
seed. Now the Government proposed to advance loans
to the latter, at the rate of 3i per cent., to bo secured
upon the crop, and repaid at the end of the present
year. The Noble Marquis then read extracts from a
letter in support of the assertion as to the danger to be
apprehended if immediate and effective means be not
taken to aid in the spring planting; and said, the next
subject to which he had to call their Lordships' atten-
tion was, the reclamation of waste lands. On this
subject, aware as he was of its importance, still
he thought the breadth of land alleged to
be reclaimable was rather exaggerated.—(Hear, hear.)
But considering the number of persons, who, from indi-
vidual observation, had noticed the extent of lands lying
waste, which were capable of cultivation, it had been
thought proper by the Government to introduce a
measure, authorising a grant of money to be laid
out on the reclamation and improvement of these
lands. He admitted that ouch a measure ought
to be introduced, and carried out with great
caution—(Hear, hear, from Lord Brougham and the
Opposition), and especially so, in order to prevent such
land when reclaimed giving rise again to the cottier
system.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He said it would
be for their Lordships to consider, when the subject was
before them, whether this evil could be guarded against.
The Government proposed to avoid that evil by reclaim-
lug the land and allotting it not into small but into large
allotments, which would be rented under such condi-
tionsl as would effectually prevent the incurrence of such
an evil. Another topic which had caused much discus-
sion in the country, and been frequently before
the attention of Parliament, was emigration.
That was a subject which had lately occupied the
serious consideration of her Majesty's Govern-
ment, and he for one wished that some stimulus
could be given to the people of those realms on that
subject, but he felt the difficulty which impeded it. But
he was of opinion that inducements might be offered
the emigrant on the other side of the Atlantic, by off:r-
ing him, when once transported across, a security for
subsistenceand employment. The Government had already
experimented in this way, having applied a very small
sum to the purpose of aiding emigrants when they went
out, and the results had been most beneficial, as their
Lordships would see from the correspondence which
would be laid before them. It was the wish of the
Government to increase that small sum, in order that
every emigrant when he reached the land of his destina-
tion should have reached the end of his toil, and that he
should have some security for obtaining such a situation
and employment as he might desire. He said, perhaps,
their Lordships would be surprised to hear the strong
disposition which existed in this country and especially
in Ireland in relation to emigration. It had been as-
certained that during the past year 32,000 had landed
at Quebec and 970 at St. John's, two-thirds of whom
were Irish.
Lord STANLEY—The number for last year was
s. oo,oes
Lord GREY—It was about 110,000.
Lord LANSDOWNE rose, and said he was obliged
to the Noble Lord for the correction, but the number ee
was staeing was a return for the colonies of England.
He felt it was the duty of Government to encourage and
to aid the emigration of the people. There was one
other subject which had occupied the attention and
partly the efforts of Government with respect to Ire-
land. He referred to the Fisheries. He said Govern-
ment had established on the north coast—the coast of
Mayo and the neighbouring counties—three curing sta-
tions for poor fishermen who were not able to procure
the same advantages fur themselves. Government
wished to continue these which had been attended with
most beneficial effects, and to erect more round
the west and south coasts ; and they proposed
further granting a small loan to the land-
lords for the purchase of machinery, boats, and
tackle, which loan' would be on the same terms as
the others, viz.: at 3i per cent. and repayment. These,
ho said, were the measures which Government proposed
immediately introducing before the attention of Parlia-
ment. He was aware that any attempt to make a per-
manent provision for the poor, was attended with the
greatest difficulty, and though be considered that out-
door relief was rather an unsafe principle to introduce
into Ireland, yet he thought there was a class of people
to whom this might be extended under certain regula-
tions; he meant the sick, tho aged, and the infirm. It
was also considered that by extending the repayment of
the first instalment of the money advanced by Government
from next spring to next summer assizes, it would be
exceedingly advantageous, and afford those who had
mw aesa
notn
thee o t
ohne
ar
bsubject
st
eo
applied for it ample time to make provision There
landlord which
h es
wwhoou lhda d r
me f provisions
rr t tgo k,t ghe es
on their property to sell portions of their property to
pay them off. That was the last of the measures which
the Government contemplated to introduce. He had
thus thought it necessary to put their Lordships fully
into possession of the intentions of the Government ;
but, much as he expected from them, he only regarded
them as auxiliary to individual exertion. The Govern-
ment could not for the relief and for the restoration of
that country make themselves the principals; they
might show the greatest anxiety, but itwas only through
the power of the proprietors that any hope of future
prosperity could be entertained. The nation could assist
the suffering and the afflicted; but it must be the vigour
of their own constitution, and the vitality of their own
body, that they must look to for permanent success and
for permanent relief. The arm might be extended to
support the tree which was bending its head to the
temporary blast, but it was only to the vigour in the
roots of the tree and to the vitality which it had in
itself that they must look for its permanent restoration,
aided for a time by the efforts of a united kingdom; and
if they only found a corresponding feeling established
oafde
li cahb
owaor
eu
rl ds , bfeorn otwh
eaffordedyfmo re
natd d
ofi n gl
at o.
elsewhere—if there were a vigorous following up of
for creating a race of independent labourer
every
oiten
ren rums m:abanendrs
which hardly now existed in many parts of that
country, they would insure the improvement of the
people, and he entertained a sanguine hope, without
dissembling the rude and the severe trial through
which they must pass, that they would see an im-
proved state of society, and the establishment of peace
and prosperity in that country.—(Cheers.) It would be
his duty to answer any questions which might arise upon
these measures. He had candidly explained them, and
be trusted that in a spirit of patriotism and of unanimity
as far as could be done, their Lordships would turn their
minds to these various important, and, in their nature,
most urgent measures.—(Loud cheers.) The Noble
Lord concluded by proposing that copies of the corre-
spondence of the Board of Works and the Commissariat
Department in Ireland should be laid upon the table of
the House.
Lord STANLEY would not trespass on the attention
of their Lordships for more than a few minutes, for after
the able speech of the Noble Marquis, he more than ever
adhered to the opinion he had already expressed, that
any attempt to discuss the measure proposed by her Ma-
jesty's Government would be premature. He thought
that the course which had been pursued by her Majesty's
Government, or rather the manner in which .it had been
proposed,
was very impartial. There was no Member
of their Lordships' House who did not feel the magni-
tude of the evil with which they had to deal. They
should also look to the effect of this measure upon Ire-
land, not only at the present moment, but as a remedy
for the evils to which the country in future might be
subjected, with a view to restore the proper tone of
society in that country, and to ensure a more prosperous
condition for the future. He fully concurred with the
Noble Marquis in considering the interference of Par-
liament last session in the Labour Rate Act
as most injurious. Tho consequence had been,
that by that interference, employment had been turned
solely to public instead of private works. It had been
stated that eight or nine Government iunctionariee had
been appointed to superintend tho employment, and for
tito-effWiellt[suPerTili9a of lookiDg 4fter Limo wyrks they

had been intrusted with money to employ persons who
were not provided with other labour, or who were
anxious to obtain such employment. In many cases
this had operated most injuriously, and some days
ago ho had received a letter from a gentleman
in Ireland, stating that under the Act of last
year considerable mischief had been effected, and
that a heavy expenditure incurred unnecessarily,
some of the pay clerks and other officials having disap-
peared with the money.—(Hear, hear.) He concurred
also with the Noble Marquis, that whatever might be
the dangers and difficulties at the present moment, that
it would be nothing compared to what might be expected
to take place if there were an abandonment of agricul-
ture in Ireland. At the same time, he did not take the
same gloomy view of the extent of the evil complained
of as the Noble Lord. It did appear that there was a
great remissness in the agriculture in Ireland. He
would now take the liberty to express his
strongest opinion that her Majesty's Govern-
ment would have done better if they had
sacrificed some of their opinions to political economy.
He agreed fully with the Noble Marquis, that the pre-
sent was a question not of money but of food—(Hear,
hear)—and provisions and net money should be sup-
plied by Government. The corn had got into the hands
of petty local speculators, by whom it was purchased.
Now, that was not a description of persons with whom,
in his opinion, Government should not interfere. He
thought that there should be depots established
throughout the country, in places that were remote or
difficult of access, for the sale of corn at fair commer-
cial prices, and the effect would have been to withdraw
the corn that was stored up, and enable the people
to obtain it at fair but remumerating prices. He re-
peated remunerating prices—not famine prices. He
had been told that her Majesty's Government had no
right to interfere with such, but that night, to his utter
astonishment, the Noble Marquis told the House that
her Majesty's Government had already done this, and
intended to carry this plan still further. It had been
stated that there had been established 950 relief com-
mittees. His Noble Friend had said with respect to the
employment of ships, that, what ho (Lord Stanley) had
contended for; and that her Majesty's ships of war and
war steamers had been employed in carrying corn
to the different ports. Now all that was in-
consistent with the principle of non-interference.
On the subject of emigration he entirely concurred with
the Noble Marquis, that it was a subject surrounded
with difficulties of no ordinary nature, and one with
respect to which it would be hard to devise any plan
likely to produce a tangible or practical effect on the po-
pulation. He felt that abuses were likely to arise from
the proposed plan of advancing small sums of money to
emigrants to British colonies, because many of those who
most successfully emigrated had funds of their own, or
were going out to meet friends or relatives, and the re-
sult of the proposed advance would be, that few,
if any, would go out on their own resources.
With respect to the question of poor-laws—decidedly
one of the most important of those under con-
sideration—he should not long detain their Lordships.
The Noble Marquis had laid much stress upon the bene-
fits likely to accrue from the fact of enabling the land-
lords to relieve the incumbrances upon their property,
by raising money in the way of a loan. Now this would
be most advantageous, if there were a simularity of
circumstances existing in Ireland to those prevail-
ing in England ; but, he regretted to say, that
after a landlord had expended a sum of money upon the
improvement of his tenant's property, he found it
utterly impossible to get a due and fair increase of rent
for the increased value of the land. He could state from
his knowledge that there were many landlords at the
present moment in Ireland, who possessed both the
means and the ability to improve their properties, but
they found it impossible to do so with the slightest pros-
pect of getting a fair return for their outlay, and there-
tore thought their Lordships ought not to be too sanguine
as to the beneficial effects said to be likely to arise from
enabling the landlords to borrow money in the manner,
and for the purposes, proposed. There existed in many
parts of Ireland a class of tenants holding under old
leases and at low rents, who derived all the be-edits
from the land, to the total exclusion of the head land-
lord, and who, for the increase of their own profits,
promoted a large and accumulating pauper population
upon the land, the head landlord having no control
whatever over the mode of tillage,
letting, or anything
else connected with the management of the property. It
might be said, and was said, that this state of things
arose from improvidence. He would grant it. But then
they must bear in mind that it was improvidence of a
very ancient date. He alluded to these circumstances to
show the great difficulty of guarding against what in
England would be most easy of consummation, and he
hoped her Majesty's Government would, before they
threw additional burdens on Irish property, take into
consideration the propriety not only of imposing bur-
dens upon the head landlords, but also upon those per.
sons to whom he bad just referred, and who received
the whole benefits from the soil, and were the
means of creating a surplus and pauper population.
He said he would strongly advocate the advancement of
capital on indisputable securities, for the purpose of
being laid out on remunerative works ; ho meant on
railways. Considering the present state of Ireland, and
the political insecurity of the country, advances of
money could not be mace in a more beneficial
mode than this, where remuneration might cer-
tainly be looked for, and the persons on whose
security the advances should be made would superintend
, the employment of it, and in a more efficient way than.
could be done by the Government. such a measure, if it
should be deemed practicable and desirable by her Ma-
jesty's Government, would more than any other call
forth the capital of these railway companies, and at an
earlier period than it was likely otherwise to be the case.
lie suggested this measure to her Majesty's Govern-
ment as one most likely to call forth capital into profit-
able application in Ireland, at a moment when Go-
vernment was about to withdraw their relief by employ-
ment of the poor; and what was more, it was less likely
to drain off labour from agricultural employments. The
New- Lord said that h- areeta ems—. ea.—
the measures of the Government, and he might say
what ho had already said before, that from the House
generally, when the measures came before the House,
they would not meet with any captious objections.
Lord BROLIG HANI said the Noble Lord who had
just sat down had spoken of objections to the measures,
for One, whatever might be his
had a strong wish to know
ohpei(nrisoonrdofßtrhoeusgehmansea)sures,
the amount of money comprehended by these measures,
the number of millions proposed for the loans, the soup
kitchens, and the out-door relief, and also the amount
ofhii
ao
(11 loanbtheae
been
that"iiaasan 'dot
dl would
edboeie(mired, and the interest, and
f found?r whether the taxes which
o n
preceding Governments,
heavy enough already, were not to be increased to meet
this demand, and even the property-tax itself, whether
it too would not be added ? Ile had heard that morn-
ing that the amount comprised in the Government Bille
was 15,000,0001. He hoped that his Noble Friend would
surely
givehim some idea of the amount. He agreed
with his Noble Friend that the Government ought not
to be corn merchants, agriculturists, or tredere,
but he went further, he thought they ought
not to become loan contractors. That was a
new capacity for a Government, it had generally been a
d-btor, but it was to become a creditor now, and would
be felt to be the harshest of err ditors. Why, the
Government proposal was to lend money to the Irish
landlords at 31 per cent interest ; but as soon as the
Irishman heard that it was to be 6i per cent. if the loan
was to be sunk, and 3i per cent, if it was not to be sunk,
and to continue 33- per cent. for ever and ever ; he was
sure no loan would be taken on such terms. no was
afraid that this, like many other measures of the Go
vernment, would prove a complete falure, as much so as
the crops of last year, or rather as a more complete
failure than that, he meant the Labour Rate Act. Tao
Noble Lord went on to state that a friend of his
rather than submit to I eying an improvement of his
road, such as the Government staff would have made, im-
posed upon him—rather than have the road unmade,
which was the word descriptive of the reality—he asked
what would be the expense of the improvement, and on
drew out a cheque for the am amount
to lountB and begged they
being told that it would amo/ , he immediately
would leave his road alone. Such, in fact, was the ope.
w
ration of this Act—
an Act which was as lumbersomo
of overseers
working details, as it was inefficient in
the general result. whys there was one functionary
employed at present in the superintendence of the works
mfoer
nesvee,ryan3dOyleatboituvrrearss.so
necessary 'The staff
to extend
th
ew asorikras,
that the staff also must be increased; for without continual
oversight, it was impossible to Prevent jobbing in Ireland.
On this subject I beg to ask the Government a question. Do
they mean to erect a regular staff of bailiffs in order to carry
ld
out this d • ? If they did, rosiest ou cause the
design
continuance of one of the gevils that Ire-
land hasever suffered from, and property would
be split out into still smaller quantities than it is
now. He might recur to the old dist'c h that every rood of
land should maintain its man, but in Ireland every half rood
was made to maintain its man, and that was the consequence
why that the money to be paid now would never satisfy the
the money now to
necessities of the country. It was said that
be :sent over would never meet the occasion, and his (Lord
Brougham's) impression was that if they sent over 40,000,000 L
the same would be the ease. Indeed something like the latter
sum had been suggested, and on the suggestion b, (ling made
,
another worthy individual had immediately said, Why, you
have not asked half enou h. They owe us 60,"001."
It was said that Parliamentgintended to extend the poor-law to
Ireland, and shut the door of the workhouse by granting out-door
relief. Why, instead of shutting the door they were opening
the door, and had already discovered that the poor would do
anything rather than enter it, and if they carried out the
system of out-door relief as it seemed was proposed, they
would commit one of the 'most fatal mistakes that could pos-
sibly occur; but he trusted that his Noble Friend had no such
unhappy intention. See what the effects already were even to
the extent at which out-door relief was already administered.
Within five days, between the 16th and the 21st of this present
January, as he had learned from an official friend
of his, no less thanwho were paupers from
Ireland,2,2oo men, -
2,056 women, ad 897 children, making a total of
more than 5,200 paupers, had been brought over from that
country. And these were not brought, as some gentlemen had
ingeniously supposed, in order that the owners of the steam
vessels might realise a freight by taking them back again ; but
one vessel alone, the Rover, from Sligo, had been paid 75/. in
one day, for bringing over .
a freight of paupers. This was,
indeed, a growing evil, for, in five days, the detail of those
who received casual relief at Liverpool, was truly frightful.
On
one day, Monday, the number was 18,095 ; on the next
day it was 19,200 ; on
Wednesday it was over 19,400; and
on Thursday it was 22 095 who received relief in that
one parish. Then it was •
evident that there was no exception
to the sad rule that pestilence followed in the train of famine ;
greatest not that the gst exertion was not made by the wealthy
and ch • antable who could administer to the wants and neces-
sities of these 1 Peel' e; he did not mean to say that it was, but
the official fri •
end of whom he had spoken had taken additional
premises for the erect'
a fever hospital. And such was
Manchester also the case with of
and Glasgow. They were not
a bit better. Let them,extend the poor-law to Ireland,
unless they intended
to then,
It tied been of
said pn over the whole the poor popu-
lation. that Irelvlrl. TX3E for the Inch, be-•
to be for
seemsd that England was the Irish also. but
let them have fair play. If Ireland was to be for
the kith; lot it keep its
owu pow. Lot them Mike theta'

election. But in the present plan, he, at first, saw no
chance. He did see that there was likely to be a great
advantage for one class of persons—the place hunters—there
Wag to be a large staff of that class for superintendents of the
public works, superintendents of labourers, farm overseers,
superintendents of police, and he did not know how many
lisides. Whether these gentlemen would be ready to work
or not, he did knew, though he was quite satisfied of one
thing—that they would be quite ready to be paid. This was
the class of pensioners of whom they were quite likely to have
sufficient. Then there was another subject, which was
well worthy of consideration, and that was, how was the
interest of the millions of these loans to Le paid?
If that interest was to be paid, he trusted that the property-
tax, as well as the assessed taxes, would be extended to Ireland.
He did not see why the man who had 140/. a year should be
exempted from the charge, for the safety and protection which
he enjoyed from the State, any more than he. V% ho had 160!.
Neither did he see any reason why a line shou!d be drawn in a
direst line down the Bristol channel to separate mortgages, for
there was a great probability that as soon as the mortgage was
removed, that the holders of estates would begin to mortgage
again.—( Laughter.) He did not mean to make any charges
against the Irish landlord which he did not allege also against
the English proprietor. When Mr. Pitt gave a loan of
5,000,000/. in 1792, and again for another of 6,000,0001. in
1797, the same principle was adopted on both occasions' that of
making the principal responsibilities and burdens form benefits
and advantages. Again, he conceived, that further, the sooner the
Ministry removed their measure from the character of a per-
manent measure, the better. If it were to he made a permanent
measure, it was not at all necessary that that should occur
this year. They might have a temporary measure
now, and wait to see the turn which events would
take. Then there was the consideration, also, of the interest
due in a year and six months, the interest being secured on the
taxation. Mr. Percival affirmed the same thing in 1811, as did

also Lord Granville in the same year, contradicting the opinions
which he had entertained in 1795. Mr. Fox and Mr. Baring

(now Lord Ashburton), also entertained the same opinion. In
the terms of that loan it was expressly stipulated, that no Com-
missioner, or any Member of Parliament in either House,
should receive one farthing of the Exchequer loan, arid he
trusted that some such self-denying clause would be inserted in
the Bill for the loan now proposed. At least his Noble Friend
would not take anything.—(Laughter, and " Hear, hear," from
the Marquis of Lansdowne.) Oh, he knew that his Noble
Friend was one of the wealthiest individuals in Europe, and
one who did not need such assistance.—(Laughter.)
One great advantage would be, to relieve the tenants
for life from the trammels in which they were now held,
for it might prove of immense benefit to those who were yet
unborn. But it was not money but food that the Irish people
required. The people were dying by thousands daily for the
want of food. They wanted corn, meal, something to eat,
which money could not immediately procure. Now, on the
west coast of Ireland there was an abundant supply of some
of the finest fish in the world, and they had only to send
nets and tackle to secure the food required by famishing
millions. They wanted but nets and tackle to bring this
, fish to market ; and they only required this assistance to ob-
tain art abundant supply of the most wholesome and nutri-
tious food that any one could desire. This would save the
corn and meal. He was sorry to say, that he was old
enough to recollect the scarcity of the year 1793 ;
and he thought that there ought to be a legal
covenant such as existed at that time when the loaf of bread
was placed on the table, and the servants and every one else
was debarred from touching it as much as if it had been gold.
No one was allowed to touch it, but the master of the family
and then he dealt it out in restricted quantities to all around
and none had more than their share, not a crumb was lost.
Some such rule might be adopted now, and it would prove
highly beneficial. Again it would be of the utmost benefit
if a restraint were put upon the use of pastry in the consump-
tion of which a great quantity of flour was used, and still
further benefit would accrue if the higher classes who enjoyed
luxuries, and had resources to which their poorer neighbours
could not attain, would refrain from using bread but
use soups, fish, or any other nutriment with vegetables instead.
He had taken the liberty to throw out this suggestion,
from his recollection of 1800. He could assure their
Lordships that these measures had been very beneficial.
He would wish, however, to ask of the Noble Lord
whether he was able to give any estimation of the amount
of supply ?
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said it would be
impossible at present to state how much.
Lord DYSART said that while he was not of opinion
that the Government should go ransacking all the
granaries of the world in search of grain, he did think
they should have established depots. But, coming to the
immediate state of the country, there was unfortunately
no doubt that the greatest scarcity existed in Ireland. He
had received a letter from a Noble Friend of his,
who had visited the scene of some of these appalling
statements of distress, and be stated that the greatest
suffering did really exist. They should consider the
peculiar circumstances of the people of Ireland. There
were 3,500 individuals who, during the time they
were otherwise unemployed, used to scrape toge-
ther manure, and by the assistance of this were
enabled to drag out a miserable and useless ex-
istence, but even of that they were now deprived.
Ile begged especially the Government would give their
attention to the system of squatting. On his own
estates he had an instance of the inveterate disposition,
for that when he was building a house for one of his
tenants, for he found that the tenant had made an
arrangement not for pulling down the old tenement, but
for having his in it. He (Lord Dysart) was obliged to
refuse to have the building completed, unless he would
agree to the old building being pulled down.
Lord DEVON thought, after what ho had heard
from one of their Lordships that night, that the
Noble Lord must have been totally neglectful
of what had passed under his own eyes ; for
any one hearing that Noble Lord, and knowing nothing
of Irish legislation, would have thought that the British
Government fur the first time had begun to legislate,
and, moreover, had all at once made a demand for a loan
for Irish purposes. The Noble Lord who had just sat
down, spoke the feelings of every honest landlord when
he admitted the obligation which rested on lauded pro-
perty to mitigate the wants of the poor. But the diffi-
culty weighing upon the subject was, that the landlord
did not always represent the land, and then if he did not
have the means of meeting the obligations which fell
upon him as a landlord, of course he could not be ex-
pected to do it. But so far from the proposal of the
Government being novel or strange, he recollected that
as far back as the first Labour-rate Act for Ireland, the
reeee-----* et" that day advanced money for the " iru-
provernent, celtivation, and drainage, and oilier ois, a..
that day hadand
hem ids(r (Lord
artrd
D advance Devon)
18a of
sorrymoney
that was
improvement of lands." Such were the words in which
this Ge)o.ertnhtmheeenNt Irisho landlords;elit; h
o Lord who had spoken on the sub-
ject had not exercised more industry in relation to the
subject—the same industry which he was accus-
tomed to show on other subjects. The Noble Lord, in his
observations had spoken of the classes who would be
affected by the failure of the potato crop ; but he must
tell him that all classes were affected by it more or
less. The lower classes scarcely ever saw money ;
110
between the farmer and the lower classes money hardly
ever passed. The farmer in Ireland had a great aversion
to bringing out money to pay for labour, for he knew
not the value to him of improvements on his farm, or
of having his fields well cultivated ; and, therefore he
hardly ever employed the labourer at all. Moreover,
speaking of this subject, and the total neglect of cultiva-
tion, he knew some farmers who had got money for
their last year's crops, and they had actually deposited
that money in the savings banks, and then thrown
themselves for employment on the public works. He
said he had heard much abuse heaped during the
discussion that night, on the Labour rate Act of last
session; for his part he could not join in it; that Act
was passed at a time of emergency and under peculiar
circumstances. He said he was not able to be present at
the discussion of that measure last year, but he did not
find by the public records, that there was much discus-
sion on the subject, or that there was any great opposi-
tion, or that those who now abused it fortevil results
had made any opposition to its passing--(Hear, hear.)
What, he asked, was then the position of Irish land-
lords? Many persons in that country made a general
demand for employment; for at that time the want of food
was not so much felt as the want of employment to
enable them to buy it with.—(Hear, hear.) At
that time there were the two Drainage Acts, the
Agricultural as well as the Public Drainage Act
was in operation, but yet beyond these means something
more was thought necessary, and therefore the Labour-
rate Act was introduced, and passed, to give employ-
ment to the necessitous. They had heard that Act de-
scribed as useless and positively mischievous. He did
not agree with such a condemnation of it ; the unem-
ployed had gained the means of a livelihood engaged in
the construction of public roads, and he believed that
those employed as overseers had not selected even a
hundred perches that would be useless; nor would they,
he was sure, make such a selection. He had a letter in
his hand which he had received from a gentleman in
Ireland, and in that letter the writer attributed the
tranquillity of the people in his district to having had
the opportunity of employing the people at an early part
of the season on the public works. Such had been one of
the effects of this much- abused Labour-rateAct. It had been
said generally in some companies, why could not the
landlords themselves employ the people on reproductive
works—for example, railway's, and such like—without
any aid from Government. He asked, what was the
position of the Irish landlord ? But he would not go
into the difficulty of the position of an Irish landlord
on that occasion. This must be obvious, that if the
Labour-rate Act had not been passed at the time it was,
the destitution and distress which would have ensued
must have been vast—greatly more aggravated than the
existing evils. He begged to make one suggestion to
the Government. He said, it was a question with many
how far a person might be able to protect himself against
further increased taxation. The Government proposal was
that if any one would not take a loan to be employed
on reproductive works, then he must be subjected to the
taxes imposed upon the electoral division. But he (Lord
Devon) wished that a division was made which was
more select. It had been contended by some that if they
employed the people on their own town-land, they ought
to be free from further taxation. That was not the
question, for that was really giving a premium to the
man who had cleared his town-land. But his proposition
was this—the taxes imposed by Government on an elec-
toral division would amount to so much ; he wished,
if he, fur instance, and two more, wished to take a loan
or give employment in proportion to the number of
acres they possessed in the electoral division, that they
to the subject
should be free from further taxation. As
attention of the
of waste lands, which had occupied the _ 0
f_
Government and their Lordships's House, he was
• •of the loan to this purpose
opinion that the application
would be more profitable and more usefully made than
to many other purposes, and that, too, no wills a view
t fur
of recovering them for the location of cottiers, but
would be
allotting them out into large farms,
whichthis country aud for
ad-
vantageously cultivated both for
d the advancement
Ireland. A Noble Lord had suggeste
a mode vihich
of money upon railway projects, compared with
might be good or not, buts
waste lands as
the other, the reclamation of
good remuneration, he
offering safe security and
decidedly preferred the last. He approved generally
e Government, which had
of the measures proposed by th
this merit among others that they
1 h proposed
ieh to meet the
;veuld Wild
13
evils of serious methods, all of ;
stimulus to labour
give aand employment. But, one
among the others deserved the attention a their Ltord-

ships, he meant the method of getting rid of the re-
dundant population by means of emigration. He thought
that any assistance from the Government before the
emigrant left this country would certainly be attended
with great abuse, but any assistance on the other side
of the Atlantic, when the emigrant arrived there, he was
sure would prove moot beneficial. He thought
were Government determined in rendering that
assistance in the land of emigration, that
the Irish landlords uniting together would make it
more like colonisation than emigration, by gathering
together different classes of the population, so that on
the other side of the Atlantic each individual would most

likely find a sphere at once to suit their energies and
their ablilities. Much had been said elsewhere of a

poor-law for Ireland ; he believed there was a difficulty
connscted with the subject; but he was of opinion that
whether it ought to be the English poor-law or not,
the Irish landlords must be prepared to receive a poor •
law sooner or later. He was still sanguine enough to
believe that they would weather the storm, and intro-

duce an improved state of things in the country, from
the experience of the present calamity.
The Earl of RODEN was persuaded that the mea•
sures introduced would tend to produce considerable
benefit. He denied that the Labour-rate Act of last

session was productive of any good. The works con-
structed under its provisions were entirely uselesA, and
it was the cause besides of withdrawing the labourers
from the cultivation of the soil. It was well known

that in Ireland the labourers preferred to take employ-
ment in the public works, even when the remuneration
they received was less than they could have obtained
from the farmers ; and on this account he considered

that the greatest possible circumspection should have
been exercised in affording employment. He was sure
the measures proposed would be received as boons by
Ireland, and he should, therefore, give them his sup-

port.
The Earl FITZ WILLIAM was sorry that the Noble
Lord, who was so discursive in his speeches, and who
generally spoke de omnibus rebus et quibusdam (this,
was not in his place on that occasion. lle regretted
that his Noble Friend was not present, as he (Lord
Fitzwilliam) had pleasure in bearing his testimony, to
the excellence of a recommendation made at the close of
that Noble Lord's speech, in which he recommended that
they should endeavour to induce the people of this
country to abstain as much as possible from the con-
sumption of farinaceous food. With respect to what
had fallen from his Noble Friend behind him (Lord
Devon) respecting the Labour -rate Act, he (Earl Fitz-
william) had to observe, that although that measure did
not work in the way in which it could have been
wished, still it had effected much
.good, and be would
ask those Noble Lords who made too strong grounds of
objection to it, in what condition would the country have
been in if that Act had not passed? That measure, he
considered, was a test for the landlords of Ireland ; for
if they did not employ their destitute labourers on their
own properties, this Act made it compulsory to afford
them employment on the public roads, and ho there-
fore denied that it was a positive evil. He
believed that in a general point of view
the Act, though not providing for works
of a useful nature, still was of great benefit, and it ap-
peared to him very evident that it was a means of re•
lieving a very considerable portion of the distress. With
respect to the measures opened this evening by the Noble
Marquis on the Treasury bench, he begged to say that
they did as much credit to the wisdom of her Majesty's
Government as they would, ho was sure, prove efficient
to meet the emergency for which they were intended.
There were some parts of them to which exception might
bo taken, but he sincerely believed that to some
extent they would grapple with the evils they were
intended to meet. He must now say a word for the
landlords of Ireland ; and he would say with respect
them, that if the whole responsibility and duty of alle-
viating the distresses of the people of Ireland, were to
be cast on one class, and that class the landlords, ho
would say Parliament and Government would do a
great injustice to that class. He would ask, why put
it on that class alone ? Were there no persons there
possessed of wealth ? Were there no persons in Ireland
but the landlords to be engaged in that work ? He did
not think that such a course was ajust one, and he would
go further and say, that it should not be cast on
Ireland alone. Ho would ask why Ireland was in such
a condition ? He would ask why Ireland was as it is?
He would ask wealthy London—he would ask England?
There could be but one answer. It was the original
tyranny of England which produced it. lie said it was
England which produced it, and he had no hesitation in
saying that England should relieve it. He called
upon their Lordships to relieve them. If 22,000
paupers were relieved by the rate-payers of Liver-
pool in one day, what an awful disclosure did
it make of the calamity which prevailed, and
of the necessity which existed for alleviating it.
With regard to the reclamation of waste land, that
was, in his opinion, the kind of work precisely from
is hich they ought most cautiously to abstain from all
interference. He very much feared that such an under-
taking on the part of Government would not be pro-
ductive of the anticipated benefit, as he believed - that
Government were not the parties who could most effec-
tively carry out such a measure. He thought the
greatest possible difficulty would ensue if they adopted
this measure, and he took that opportunity of inti-
mating to them his apprehensions regarding it. He had
another view to which he wished to call their Lordships'
attention before he sat down. It might be an eidolum
in his own mind, but he thought that the entire system
of railway management should be in the hands of the
Government. Sure he was, however, that in Ireland, if
Government would undertake the construction of rail-
ways such a course would bo of the greatest possible ad-
vantage. If they did undertake, the construction of
railways, a better system of railways would be intro-
duced, than if the conflicting claims, views, and interests
of private parties were interwoven with them, and there
would be besides a more beneficial effect upon the em-
ployment of labour. It was by the operation of such a
system of railway construction that they could hope to
change the character, position, and location of the rural
raratataas v 4 assiaaa, ..sa is was fnr this reason that
he most earnestly directed their Lordships' attention to
the subject.
The Earl of MOUNTCASIIEL said he was not at
that late period of the night going to test their Lord
ship's patience by entering in detail into the history of
Ireland—(A laugh)—but one thing that he should
infer from this history was, that ever since Ireland had
been under the yoke of England—at all events up to the
time of the union—the influence of the former country
had been exerted to crush the trade and commerce of
Ireland. The truth of this assertion was shown by the
provisions of the Act of the 6th of George 1., the
obnoxious influence of which was not repealed
until the middle of the reign of George 111
He had been informed, and in fact had seen in one
instance, that where a few old cabbage leaves were
thrown into the mud they were eagerly seized by the
starving wretches who were loitering about. It was a
fact that six out of eight labourers in Ireland were in
a state of destitution, and was it possible for the Irish
proprietors to support that mass of misery? They could
not. According to the valuation of Mr. Griffiths, the
rental of Ireland was 12,715,0001. per annum, and was
now about 13,000,000/. per annum in round numbers.
The amount of bonds, mortgages, &c., on landed pro-
perty in Ireland, was about eight years' purchase, or
100,000,0001., and that at 15 per cent. made 5,000,000/.,
and the law expenses and other incidental charges,
besides children's fortunes in marriage settlements, would
snake, beside a total including the interest, 10,415,000/.,
leaving the balance of 13,000,000/. for the support of all
this distress. Was it possible, with less than three mil
lions per annum, to support a starving population and
themselves also ? The average cost of maintaining a
pauper was ls. 6d. per week, and that, taking the popu-
lation of Ireland— at least all the poor—would give
12,000,000/. per annum, to be paid out of less than three
millions per annum. The landlords were also placed in
a very bad position in consequence of the liability of
the tenants to pay up their rents ; and therefore it
would be only an act of justice to prevent the fore-
closure of the mortgages for a certain term—for
a term of three years—so as to enable them to
have some chance of bettering themselves.— (Hear, hear.)
The present system of letting land was such, that a
farm which forty years ago was in the possession of one
person, was now divided among forty, and in many
cases no rent whatever could be obtained. The fourth
of the produce of the land was that which ought to go
for rent, but it seldom happened that they realised so
much. The people of Ireland married young, and got
large families, and this was the cause of the super-
abundant population of that country. There were
690,000 some odd hundred farms in Ireland; of these,
310,000 were under five acres in extent, 152,000 be-
tween five and ten acres, 79,000 not exceeding thirty
acres, and but 47,000 exceeded the latter extent. Such
was the minute divisions of farms which had taken
place. He was confident that if something was not
done this year, in finding seed potatoes and oats, there
would be no crop next year, and matters would be worse
than they were at present. The Government ought to
take this question into its most serious consideration.
Having stated thus much, he would reserve w hat further
be had to say till a future occasion.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH did not intend say-
ing much now, as a future opportunity would be given
of discussing,the question. Still he had a remark or
two to make on the address of the Noble Marquis (the
Marquis of Lansdowne). The Noble Marquis said the
Government intended to advance sums of money, as
loans to the landlords to improve their estates, but he
(the Marquis of Westmeath) did not think many of
them could take advantage of that, unless different
arrangements wore made respecting its application.
At present the intention of the best disposed
landowner could be defeated by any litigious person.
The Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack would
bear him out in saying, that if an injunction were applied
for to restrain waste land, it would at once be granted,
but in many instances the suing out of an injunction
would eat up the fee simple of an estate. He was before
Lord Devon's Commission in 1844, and ho stated there
that if a new mode of occupation was not struck out by
the law, the whole country would, in a period of less than
five years, be falling back on the State to feed them. He
considered that if his suggestions had been then attended
to, the calamities which they had been subjected to
would not have had such frightful results. He had held
a conference with some of the legal authorities upon the
subject. There were present the Lord Chancellor, Sir
E. Sugden, Judge Jackson, and Mr. Blackburne ; the
latter suggested that the writ of injunction should be
reduced to merely a nominal expense ; they all agreed
with him, and he was sure no one could prove that he
was in the wrong ; but Mr. Blackburne was made
Master of the Rolls, and there the matter ended.—
(Laughter.) He thanked the House for their attention,
but he could not refrain from saying as much as he did.
Earl GREY said that ho was sorry to prolong this
discn:•sion, and he m)uld only do so for a short time,
mere c:sl),:eitilly at that hour, when thu House had been
reduced to such a small number; but as some remarks
had bowl nude in the, course of she debate to which