The Sun.
London, England, 1841-04-29 00:00:00

EVENING EDITION

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snit hit a profit appearing upon the rate of 51. What he
(L ord Morpeth) sai I was that it was just as open to them
to say that it should be evidenced by an occupation raised
at the net annual value of 81. When be demonstrated, as
ev en the Noble Member for North Lancashire admitt NI he
hr d done, that the t-st of profit above rent and charges
pi oposed by his Noble Friend would go very far to disfran-
el ,ise the whole of the present constituency of Ireland, his
eble Friend and the Honourable Member fur Halifax
d ktinctly stated that they had never even dreamt of
a taking this their sole ground-work fur the franchise
c r constituency of Ireland, but they proposed after
t he adoption of the words which bad already been assented
1 oby the House, to annex another additional or alterative
; qualification for the possession of the franchise. He then
stated that his Noble Friend's proposal of a test of profit,
above rent and charges, would not be objected to by her
Majesty's Government as a clear addition, but whenever
k brought forward they would be happy to adopt it. They
insisted, however, that that additional or alterative condi-
tion, should be a rating of the net annual value of 8/., and
upon that, whether considered simply as the sole proposi-
tion, and as the sole condition for the construction of the
franchise in Ireland, or whether taken as an additional
and alterative qualification upon the issue of having a net
%rated value of Si., they bad determined that the sense of
tae House should bo fully and deliberately ascertained.
The last Report of the Valuation Commissioners had
stated that it was impossible to ascertain exactly what the
rating would be while the tenure remained uncertain ; and
such must evidently be the case, for it was clearly impos-
sible they could guess at the valae at which the landlords
might be inclined to put their land. The Right
Honourable Gentieman had also alluded to the num-
1-ier of teammate which would be left above the va-
Ste of 51., and quoted the number of those tenements in
opposition to his (Lord Morpeth's) assertion, that the
proposed franchise would not greatly increase the existing
electoral body in keland. Now, the assumption of the
Righttlien. Baronet went to this, that all the holders of
tenements ix Ireland above 5/. were males ; and that, in
addition, they were all possessed of such leases as wonld
.euzitle them to the elective franchise.
Sir R. PH EL dissented from the representation made
of his sentiments by the Noble Lord.
Lord MORPETH was at a loss, then, to understand
few whit purpose the Right Hon. Baronet had made the
quotation. The Right Hon. Baronet had said that he had
not snakiest itiformstion either to propose a franchise him-
deself„ or to assent to any one which might be proposed by
'ter Vlajesty's Government. All he could say was, that
they had not been chary either in collecting or producing
all the information within their reach ; but ho had all
along contended, from the very nature of things under the
Poor-law, as it existed in Ireland, that it was impossible
they could legislate upon full information during the course
of tine present Session ; he would remind the House that
they had not undertaken the task to remodel the existing
franchise until they had felt themselves compelled to do so
by the attempts made to remodel and recast the existing
franchise, competed as it was with the system of regis-
tration ; we that they bad no option but either to bring for-
ward the present measure, or to allow them to alter the
Irish franchise in such a manner as would render it ut-
terly incompatible with anything like a theory of a repre-
sent ative system.—(Cheers.)
Al'r. Sergeant JACKSON complained of her Majesty's
Gov ernrnent having brought forward a measure for
pla&ng the whole qualification upon rating, without hav-
ing obtained sufficient information upon the subject, and
laying that information for the guidance of Hon. Mem-
bers on the table of the House. He thought the Bill of
the Noble Lord (Stanley) was a manifest improvement
upon the system of quarterly registration, which had been
productive of manifest evil and inconvenience in Ireland.
11r. H. GRATTAN could not too strongly condemn

the course taken by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman op..
posite, in now asking for further information.—( Cheers.)
It. vas altogether a political farce. The Noble Lord
below him was not the man to extricate any country—cer-
tainly not to extricate Ireland from a political difficulty.
After six hours' discussion, the Noble Lord bad been un-
able to get into the pith and marrow of his subject, and
he had got through that discussion with the satisfaction
only of a single admirer.—(Cheers and laughter.) The
•ir hole proceeding was a shameful, base, political juggle—
(Cheers and laughter)—which could amuse none but the
avowed enemies of Ireland.—(Cheers and laughter.) He
did not think that any blame ought to be attached
to the individuals who had brought forward this Bill.
This great question was kept as a ball, to be thrown
about as the interests or prejudices of parties might di-
rect. The proceedings of that night would be read in
history. The conduct of the Noble Lord would be seen
with astonishment, and with still more astonishment that
of the Right Hon. Baronet. The Right Hon. Baronet
had said that Ireland was his only obstacle, and here
wore two modes by which he might surmount it, but be
would net adopt either. He had not the courage to do
so. If he had his Gallant Loader beside him, instead of
the Ithuriol (Lord Stanley) at his side, he might stirt
up, not in a fiendish shape, but in that in which be gave
emancipation to the Catholics, and gave liberty to the Ca-
tholic, the Protestant, and tle Dis'entcr. Gentlemen
might treat this subject as lightly as they pleated, but so
him God, he (Mr. H. Grattan) would never con-
sent to abate one tittle of that liberty which was the
birth-right of the people of Ireland, and in defence of which
he teas eetesrniaed to risk everything but his character and
tionour.—(Theers.)
'Tile House then resolved itself into Committee on the
Bid!.

.0n u.s being proposed in clause 2 to insert the words
" fot.neen years,"
Mr. HUM E said he wished to ask whether it was in-
ti-.need to give to the people of Ireland the franchise that
ceght to be given, and which might be secured to them,
Or only such a franchise as they could exercise at the wish
enether ? The Nubia Lord, the Member for North
letecaehire, had said that he hoped the Irish landlords
woubl exorcise the same influence over their tenants as
was exercised by the landlords in England, and that the
lei:al:Dr.'s had a right to refuse leases it the tenants would
riot tame to some arrangement with respect to their votes.
NWha t was this clauses, .aster such declare; iens, but a mode of
rod nf: the present posseseors of the franchise of their votes?
Tlio Noble Lord below him, on the 4th Feb. male use of
these words, " I feel too strongly attached to the princi-
ples of popular lawny not to desire that the groat body
of the people of Ireland should feel that the majo-
rty of the Mc aibers sett from that country to
this House exproesed their feelings."—( Loud cheers.)
But it appeared to him (Mr. Hume) that the Noble
Lord and Min. Members on both sides of the House held
out expectations to the people of Ireland which they had
no intention to ruralise.—(Cheers.) How was it possible
that ti, people of Ireland should be satisfied with the
present state of the representation as compared with that
of 'Scotland and England ?—( Cheers.) In these countries
it appeared front the returns that every one grown up man
in five had the power of voting for a Member of Parlia-
ramt to represent the district in which he lived. That
sisso:ved that in England and Sccel led four-fifths of the
no ett were disfranchised. The Right Hon. Baronet op-
pr site knew the discontent which that injustice produced.
Hear, hear.) 'lnc Right Hon. Baronet had, there-
it re, encouraged and supported the Government in in-
ceeasing the military and police force to keep down the
detainee of the people throughout this island for politi-
cal justice.—( Hear, hear.) It the people of England and
Scotland were makiag great effort: to obtain a share of
the- rights withheld from them by the unjust laws of Par-
mere, and he was happy to say that millions were now or-
ed in thoso effort:, what must be the discontent
4,f the people of Ireland when only one in twenty had
a voice in tie representation ?—(Cheers.) Did the Noble
Loa l helow him thick that the people of Ireland would be
saislied even if his clauses kept up the ratio of represene
tatien ?—( Cheers.) The population of Wales and Soot-
lend eisountoi to somewhat about three millions, of whom
120.4100 were electors In Ireland, out of a population
of eiget millions and upwards, there were but 98,000
eke ;ors.—( Hear, hear.) He said that the people of lie- '
lend would be lees than tnel :f they submitted to such a
st to of things._(Cheers. ) He thought a property qua-
lit;x:ation was essentially ern:axons ; but ne did not ohject
to the Noble Lord's (Lord Morpeth) principle of rating,
vcl Lich afforded a rational means of distinguishing a fixed
i„liabitant from a vagabond. Not even the white slaves
of England, or the black slave: of the West Indies, had
so much to complain of as the people of Ireland.—( Hear,
lifinr.) The sentiment expressed by the Noble Lord the
Member for Northumberland, that the people of Ireland
ocgl.t to be represented by persons of their choice, was a
*cry pretty sentiment.—(Cheers and laughter.) But
what (rood was that sentiment if the roan did not stand up
to hi; colours and give practical effect to it ?---( Hear,
hear.) He (Mr. Hume) was unfortunately absent the
ot'aer night. —( Cheers and laughter from the Tory benches. )
If be had been present he would have expressed his opi-
nion that neither Whigs nor Tories me tot to do justice
to Ireland.—(Cheers, and a laugh.) Although he ad-
mitted that the Whigs certainly broeght in an excellent
measure, if they had left out the clause requiring a lease.
—(Hear, from Lord Howick.) He had taken the trouble
to look to the qualifications under the English, Irish, and
Scotch Reform Bills, and he found that they were of 82
different kinds.—( Hear, bear.) Was it any wonder then
that there was so much difference of opinion amongst the
serious trifeunals which had to decide upon disputed qua-
lifications ? All the confusion arose from the want of
equal laws, which was of more importance to the poor
man than to the rich, because the rich man could afford to
-purchase the expensive proteetion of the Courts. He en-
treated the House not to agree to the clause regarding
lesseeholds. Let it be enough that a man should have re-
sided six months upon the premises from which he is qua-
lit d. they did that, he was satisfied the people of Ire-
laud would be oontented with seeing a disposition to do
them justice.—(Hear, hear.) He would now move to leave
out the word " leasehold."
The CHAIRMAN said that ho must first read the
clause.
The clause having been read,
Mr. HUME concluded br moving that in the required
tenure one year should be substituted for fourteen.
Lord MORPETH expressed a belief that the amend-
ment would not materially diminish the dependence of
tenants on their landlords, and he could not, therefore,
eupport the amendment.
Mr. O'CONNELL thought that the proposition of his
Hon. Friend the Member for Kilkenny would not enable
him to obtain his object, as it would induce landlords to
give short notices to quit, and tenants could not then be
put on the register. He would move an amendment to
the effect that the franchise should be enjoyed in Ireland
on the same terms as in England, so that there might be
-identity on the aebject between the two countries.
Mr. HUME said that if, as was stated by his Hon. and
Learned Friend, his amendment would not attain the end
he desired, he would be ready to withdraw it.
Mr. C. WOOD expressed a wish that occupation
should be substituted for a leasehold tenure, and he was,
therefore, favourable to the principle of the amendment of
the Hon. Member for Kilkenny.
Mr. HAWES also expressed himself in favour of the
amendment.
Mr. PIGOT was opposed to the amendment. He
was of opinion that if it were adopted, it would lead to an
(merely gar distribution of power in Ireland.
Mr. NPPITH O'BRIEN atepported the amendment of
the HOD. Member kir Kilkenny. In calculating the con-