The Sun.
London, England, 1847-01-30 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, Jan. 29.
The Lord Chancellor took his seat on the Woolsack
at Five o'clock.
IMMIGRATION OF IRISH PAUPERS.
Earl FITZWILLIAM said that he had observed,
eon
the other evening, that a great impression had been
made by the statement of his Noble and
Learned Friend who sat opposite (Lord Brougham)
of the great number :of Irish poor who had recently
been relieved in Liverpool. He was sure that their
Lordships must be aware that those poor who had re-
cently arrived in Liverpool had not stayed there.—(Lord
Brougham—" Oh ! no, no !") They were not resident
there. Therefore let not Noble Lords, who were uncon-
nected with Lancashire, imagine that they could get off
scot free.
Lord BROUGHAM—True, they might overrun the
West Riding.—(Laughter.)
Earl FITZWILLIAM—They would go on to Man-
chester ; they would go through the East Riding on to
Lincolnshire, and to Norfolk ; and the landlords of Suf-
folk would not escape the infliction. Let, them, there-
fore, not imagine that the evil was removed
from their doors. This Irish distress was not
a local one ; it would affect the whole empire ;
and there was no way, he imagined, in which
he could more strongly display the evil than by moving
for an official return on that. He would, therefore, move
for a return of the number of persons, distinguishing
men, women, and children, who had been relieved as
casual poor in the town of Liverpool, from the let Janu-
ary, 1847, distinguishing also the English, Scotch, and
Irish; and with respect to the Irish distinguishing those
resident at Liverpool from those who had recently
arrived. He moved also for a similar return from
Bristol.

Lord BROUGHAM—And Glasgow and Greenock.
Glasgow is much worse than Liverpool.
Lord MONTEAGLE—Say the ports on the Clyde.
Earl FITZWILLIAM—And the ports on the Clyde ;
also a similar return for the corresponding period of 1846.
Lord BROUGHAM said, singe he had last addressed
their Lordships upon this painful subject, he had received
a letter from a gentleman at Liverpool, named Horseley,
a large wholesale warehouseman there, in which he stated
that from the reports in the newspapers he had seen
that some observations were addressed by him (Lord
Brougham) to their Lordships upon the subject of the
great influx e f Irish paupers to Liverpool. He stated in
his letter that the number of persons relieved on Thurs-
day the 22d amounted to 22,640. What, the writer went on
to say, would be the fearful increase might be easily con-
jectured. The poor rate at present levied was 2s. 2id.
its the pound, and he himself paid 900/. for:his portion
of the poor rate. A tabular statement was also enclosed
showing the amount of the relief from the 18th to the
:26th inclusive. He would not trouble the House with
the details of each day, but the total number
amounted to 173,513. Soup rations amounted to between
7,000 and 8,000. The amount of out-door relief was
also considerably increased. The increase at present
amounted to 4081., of this, 3781. had been expended
upon Irish paupers. This would give their Lordships
a pretty tolerable index of the proportion of Irish
paupers in Liverpool. The result was that
nineteen-twentieths of the pauper population
were Irish paupers. This was a subject which
required great delicacy in its management. If they
were to go on month after month relieving the people at
this rate, what would be the result ? He had seen a
letter this morning from a friend of his who had re-
ceived it from his bailiff in Ireland, stating that it was
quite impossible to go on with the cultivation of land, as at
that moment he required 100 labourers, and could not get
them, they being all too anxious to obtain employment
on the public works, because they well knew that they
could get good pay for it, while the value of their
work was not worth 2d. It was clear that the Irish
pauper did not like work. He regarded with
apprehension the state giving money by mil
lions to the people for these useless works.
He knew it might be said, how cruel, not to give
the public money to these starving people fur doing
nothing. It had been s.iid that men were exceedingly
generous of things when they were other people's
money and their own advice. This adage applied very
well to these sentimental people, who were so fond
of blaming persons who were opposing this squandering
of the public money. They were, however, the best
friends to the labourers themselves, who told them not
to support a system which was calculated to make them
mendicants upon the British public, and take away from
them all self reliance upon their own exertions. He
had one subject to which he would briefly allude.
It had been stated in the report of his speech,
of last night that he had said that there was a society
engaged in the work of proselytizing the Catholic peas-
pers in Ireland. Ile (Lord Brougham) said no such
thing ; what he said we s, that a letter was written by a
reverend gentleman, whose name he would not mention,
in which he stated that it would be an excellent
opportunity for members of Protestant churches
to subscribe a sum of 20,000/. to be expended in a mis-
sion to promulgate the tenets of Protestantism. The
reasons why the Rev. Gentleman considered the present
a favourable opportunity, were, as he had stated, that
the Roman Catholic peasantry had had their feelings
conciliated and their prejudices removed—no doubt to a
great degree by the generous relief which had
been afforded so - promptly in the time of
their severe distresses by the Protestants of England.
He had no doubt that the proceedings of the Reverend
Gentlemen were well intended, but he should try at the
proper time when the circumstances were more favourable
to overcome, what he (Lord Brougham) considered the
grievous errors, politica!, moral, and religious, of popery,
by the introduction of the principles of Protestantism,
and the circulating of the scriptures. He objected,
however, to the present opportunity being taken ad-
vantage of, in order to forward the Protestant faith.
Earl FITZWILLIAM was of opinion that unless the
relief committees of the district from which the

letter referred to by the Noble and L.arned Lord, acted
in a different manner to what the relief committees did
elsewhere, he did not see how the evils complained of
could arise to any great extent. If a proprietor or
farmer wanted labourers and could not get them in the
ordinary way, if be applied to the relief committee, there
was no doubt that they would discharge as many from
the public works as would be required for that purpose.
There was no doubt that that the labourers preferred
employment on the roads to the ordinary em-
ployment, as the rate of wages was higher.
Still the relief committee had the power of regulating
this to a great extent. lie had received
a letter from one of the bailiffs of his estates in Ireland

the other day, from which it appeared that the
wages paid by the farmers was eightpence a day. The
wages paid by his bailiff was one shilling a
day, while the relief committee paid from thirteen
to fourteen pence a day; so that the labourers
preferred his (Lord Fitzwilliam's) employment to the
farmers', and the relief-committee to both. He was not
much alarmed as to anything that had transpired up to
this period, as little had been going forward in the cul-
tivation of the land, but as February and March were
the principal months for cultivation, and, this state of
things continued, he would have greater apprehension
that there would not be sufficient labourers found to cul-
tivate the soil.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord BEAUMONT was of opinion that a Select Com-
mittee on the operation of the Law of Settlement should
be appointed by their Lordships, as well as the one
which had been appointed by the Lower House. He
thought this was necessary, as the most erroneous impres-
sions prevailed as to the operation of the Law of Settle-
ment passed last year.
The Earl of ROI)EN wished to know how far the
question of the Noble Lord had been replied to, and how
far it was the intention of the Ministry to
amend the Labour-Rate Act of last sesasion. By
that Act it was competent for the farmer to apply
to the Board of Works for any number of la-
bourers he might require. By that Act the labourers
were under the direction of the Board of Public Works,
and if any farmer required labourers, he had nothing to
do but to apply to that Board. But what was the fact
of the case ? Supposing a farmer wanted labourers on
his farm, would he apply to that Beard ? He might do
so, but if he lived in a lonely part of the country,
or if he resided in a thatched house, he never could
depend upon his life being safe for an hour, should he
employ any labourer who was not patronised by the
secret associations. Ho thought that the Government
ought to be warned by the extent of the effect to which
this Act went, and he trusted that some measures would
be taken to amend its provisions. One thing of which he
had to complain was, that occasion had been taken to
sow religious jealousies. It had been stated that a hope
was entertained that this visitation would be beneficial
in promoting the Protestant faith, and thus" knitting
the interests of that country with this, one of the great-
est advantages, as he conceived, derivable from this cala-
mity, and one of the greatest consolations, arose from
the fact that all religious differences were sunk in the
common cause of charity. The calamity existed, and
they eould not binder it, and the union of political and
religious feeling was the greatest consolation that any
One could possibly enjoy under the infliction
was the feeling that existed on this point. If they spent
thousands upon thousands they would not prevent it,
and he regretted therefore the more on those two ac-
counts that the name of a gentleman had been men-
tioned by the Nuble Lord who had just sat down with-
out that respect to it which was entitled. It had been
stated that this was a good opportunity for
uniting Ireland with England, and making converts
to Protestantism. With this assertion had ho joined
the name of:a gentleman whose best answer to the
attack was the history of his life. There was not a
tan higher in the estimation of those with whom
e difficulty twoeutl, not ono whose conduct under that
have:been more worthy of praise; no
one whose character more combined the character of
the gentleman and the clergyman than that of Mr.
Dickersteth. Ills character was fully established in this
country, and no one wouldrlegret more than that gen-
tleman, at a time when
al
religious differences were
sunk under the sufferings of the common calamity, if his
observations serve to be madeacause of difference be-
tween the two countries.
Lord BROUGHAM would exceedingly regret if a
few words of his were to be considered as originating
any ate,ack upon the excellent clergyman to
Noble reload had alluded, fur he felt convinced that his
observation such as he had been represented to have made
any
would only be a cause of increased misery in Ireland,
and lead to a greater breach between the professions
of the two religions than now existed.
UNION WORKHOUSES AND TIIE DUBLIN
POLICE.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE laid upon the table
the returns of the expediture in these two departments.
SPANISH MARRIAGES.
The Earl of ABERDEEN wished to ask whether
there was any intention on the part of the Government
to lay on the table the last dispatch which had been re-
ceived from the Marquis of Normanby with respect to. ,
the Spanish marriages, It appeared to hrm but reason

able that as the correspondence Thad begun by them-
selves, it should be closed by a reply from the other side.
He was not going to give any opinion on the sub-
ject matter of that correspondence, and he hoped that
the House would not be called to give such an
opinion—(Cheers). But he ventured to state that he
had a very strong belief that this House and the coun-
try would desire to see that correspondence come to a
termination—(Renewed cheering). It was now con-
tinued without any aim or practical object, and he was
only afraid that if it was continued still further in the
tone and temper which it had now assumed, he could
only apprehend that it might cause a disruption of
friendly understanding, and lead to serious mischief.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, who was very in-
audible, was understood to say that the Noble Lord the
Secretary for Foreign Affairs, had only on that morning
been put in possession of a copy of the answer to the
dispatch referred to by the Noble Earl, and he (Lord
Lansdowne) had not yet had an opportunity of seeing it.
But he would at the earliest opportunity lay it on the
table of their Lordships' House. Ho could assure their
Lordships that her Majesty's Government were not in
the slightest degree inclined to suppress, or withdraw,
any information, nor to withhold any one circumstance
attending this transaction.
Lord BROUGHAM said that every body must feel
the justice, fairness, as well as candour, of the answer of
the Noble Marquis, and they must all agree in the hope
expressed by the Noble Earl behind him that this cot,
respondence were better ended.
THE CASE OF MR. R. W. MARA, LATE RE-
GISTRAR OF FRIENDLY SOCIETIES IN IRE-

LAND.
The Earl of ST. GERMANS, in presenting a peti-
tion from Mr. Mara, complaining of his removal from
the office of Registrar of Friendly Societies in Ireland,
proceeded to state that, at the close of last session, a
Bill upon the subject of Friendly Societies was brought
from the other House, which was referred to a select
Committee of their Lordships. The Committee pro-
ceeded to consider this Bill, and among its enactments
was one adding a considerable amount of duty to the
office of Registrar in Ireland, without at the same time
giving any additional emolument. The Noble Earl then
referred to the correspondence which had taken place on
the matter, and to the opinion of the Attorney General
of Ireland, and of Mr. Napier of the Irish Bar. If the
opinion of the Attorney General of Ireland was correct,
all the proceedings of Mr. Tidd Pratt, with respect
to friendly societies, was null and void.—(Hear, hear.)
He would not push the matter further at present, nor
did he bring the matter forward for the purpose of em-
barrassing the Noble Lords opposite. He would con-
clude by moving that the correspondence which had
taken place between her Majesty's Government and Mr.
Mara, in consequence of his being removed from the
office of registrar of friendly societies in Ireland, be
laid on the table of their Lordship's House.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE begged to claim the
attention of the House for a few moments, after the
statement which had been made by the Noble
Lord, in order to explain under what circum-
stances the appointment had been made. He
was not acquainted with the particulars of this
transaction until within the last twenty-four hours,
and he considered it his duty to inform himself of them,
which he considered he had fully done. It was quite
true that Mr. Tidd Pratt, who holds this office, had
never been removed, to which he had been well entitled
from his long and useful exertions in reference to these
societies. But in Ireland and Scotland it had been an
established practice that the gentleman filling this office
should also, be in the confidence of the Attorney and
Solicitor-Generals, and it was in pursuance of this very
practice that Mr. Mara was appointed. There being a
change in the Attorney-General, only Mr. Green suc-
ceeded to that office. The person who held the ap-
pointment, as certifier, of friendly societies, only appears
as a claimant until the right of the last Attorney-Ge-
neral's Act came into operation. Neither has this
species of temporary appointment been considered per•
manent. Whether the Act had recently altered
the practice and created a necessity which did
not before exist, he was not aware, but it was
essential that the person filling the office should be in the
confidence of the officials whom he had already made.
From this statement the question was narrowed into the
question, whether under the circumstances, the Attorney
and Solicitor-Generals had not done that which was best
for the public interests, in combining the two offices. It
was no doubt to be regretted that Mr. Mara, who was a
respectable person, should have been disappointed in not
obtaining the office ; still he submitted there was no-
thing extraordinary in the proceedings of the Attorney
and Solicitor-Generals, in regard to the present appoint-
ment. Ile hoped the Noble Lord would not press his
motion.

Earl ST. GERMANS called the attention of the Noble
Marquis to the words of the Act of Parliament. It
stated, whether right or wrong was not the question,
that the two offices referred to should be combined, and
that the barrister or advocate who had hitherto certified
the rules of benefit societies, should in future be styled
Registrar of Benefit Societies, and appointed by the
Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt,
the situation being held during pleasure. The appoint-
ment was therefore in the hands of the Commissioners,
and not the Attorney or Solicitor-General. As Mr.
Mara had held the office previous to the Act coming
into operation, he thought he had been badly used in
his removal.

Marquis of CLANRICARDE—The difference in !
the practice of Ireland and Scotland was this, that the
Attorney General for the time being in Ireland, and the
Lord-Advocate for the time being in Scotland, were to
appoint these persons, and the question than was,
whether the intention of the Legislature was to confine
th., appointment to the Attorney-General at the time
being, referring to the passing of the Act, or to the
time being when the vacancy in question might occur.
After some further conversation, the motion was then
withdrawn.
Their Lordships adjourned at half-past six o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Jan. 29.
'The SPEAKER took his seat at Four o'clock.
SECOND READINGS.

On the motion of Mr. PARKER, the Birkenhead and
Cheshire Junction Railway (deviation of main line, &c.),
and the Birkenhead, Lancashire, and Cheshire Junction
Railway, and Chester and Birkenhead Railways Amal-
gamation Bills, were read a second time.
On the motion of Mr. H. BERKELEY, the Bristol
and Exeter Railway (Taunton and Castlecary branch)
Bill was read a second time.
On the motion of Mr. EWART, the Glasgow, Paisley,
Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway (No. 2), and the Glasgow,
Dumfries and Carlisle Railway, and Glasgow, Paisley,
Kilmarnock and Ayr Railway (No. 4) Bills, were read a
second time.

On the motion of Dr. BOWRING, the Llynvi Valley
Extension Railway Bill was read a second time.
On the motion of Alderman COPELAND, the North
Staffordshire Railway (alterations in branches) and the
North Staffordshire Railway (Churnet Valley and Trent
Valley Junction) Bills were read a second time.
On the motion of Sir E. FILMER, the following
Bills were read a second time, in order to be committed:
South-Eastern Railway (Mid Kent and Direct Tun-
bridge).
South-Eastern Railway (Croydon and Bromley Branches)
South-Eastern Railway (Maidstone to Chart).
South• Eastern Railway (Strood to Maidstone).
South• Eastern Railway (North Kent and Bricklayers'
Arms Junction).
South-Eastern Railway (North Kant Line).
COMMITTEE OF SELECTION.
Mr. GREEN moved that it be an instruction to the
Committee of Selection not to appoint the sitting of any
Committee on Bills for town improvements, markets
and fairs, harbours and docks, cemeteries, gas works,
water works, or any Bills for the amendment of Acts
for any of the above purposes before the Ist of March
next.

After a few words from Dr. Bowring, Mr. Wilson
Patten, Lord Harry Vane, and Mr. Hudson,
Mr. HUME supported the motion. He thought that
there ought to ba general measures passed applicable to
all the various orders of private Bills ; persons then
wishing to present any private Bill would have only to
adopt one paragraph or so, instead of the numerous
clauses and lengthy Bills now required, creating by
their enactment an enormous amount of confusion.
The motion was agreed to.
LIGHTHOUS ES.

Mr. MUNTZ presented a petition from the inhabi
tants of Scilly, praying that the lighthouse dues migh
be reduced.

DISTRESS IN IRELAND.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN presented a petition from Mary-
borough, calling the attention of the House to the distress
existing in Ireland, and prayi❑g that some effectual
remedies might be devised to alleviate it.
Mr. LABOUCHERE presented a petition from a
place in Tipperary, signed by the High Sheriff of the
county and many of the resident gentry, complaining
of the distress in Ireland, and praying the House to
adopt measures to prevent the recurrence of a similar
calamity.