The Sun.
London, England, 1841-01-14 00:00:00

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EVENING 'll.l'l'loN

against the Company, they must be AIVITC that it had 111.
most active and determined opponents that an-.
'Company ever had, and that therefoie it. behoved
them to be cautious; but if any goitl,m3o, a bona het
shareholder, wanted information, which the 11TrccorF.
could disclose without detriment to the interests of tl(:
Company generally, they would be mot ready and
to do so.—(Applause.) He was sure iiiere was not a,
thing that they wished to withhold from the Sharchoh3el-
but this was a very different thirg., from giving infera:aC--:
generally to the Shareholders and the publle, and so tr;-

ing too much of your cmo, in order to let }our oppou_
get the upper hand of you.-•-Mr. sain, tho
Manchester and Birmingham Company imd an vgrecin,-.,,
to travel over the Grand Junction Line. Some sai,J

be required." I told him I might probably state it to the
Shareholders at 24,0001. or 25,300/. His reply was, "If
you do that, Mr. Tootal, you will have the pleasing sa-
tisfaction, year after year, to state to your Sharehol-
ders, that you are glad to find that the cost will be
less."—A SHAREHOLDER—Does that refer to the Stafford
and Rugby Line ?--Mr. E. Toomee : the Stafford
and Rugby Line—that varied line of the Company
which is under discussion this day. Since then. I have
had other ()pinions. I had a letter only the other day,
datel the 15th January, from an engineer whose eminence
no one would call in question. I had asked him to be
good enough to revise our estimate, as a personal
friend ; and he writes as follows :—" When the lino was
in Patliament last time, and during the struggle on
the question of the 'temirnates, I looked carefully into the
items, and then satisfied myself that the estimate was
abuielant. Indeed, it differs from ordinary estimetea, le
being termed, not upon opinion or speculation, but upon
the actual cost of works cf an exactly similar character.
This class of estimation clearly renders the chance
of
error the least possible ; and on the character of the works
on the Midland Counties Railway, the estimate is as nearly
certain as it is susceptible of being made. I make these
few remarks for the purpose of redeeming a promise."
This has reference to the Stone and Rugby Line ; and
this differs from that only in the distance north of
Rugeley. From Rugby to Rugeley, a distance of 40
miles, the lines are the same ; the difference is, that the
former line passed to Rugeley by way of Stone, whilst
the present passes thither by way of Stafford. There is
a difference in the cost of the works on those two portions
of the line; but from Stafford to Rugeley the varied dis-
tance is ti 4 miles, and that 8§ miles out of 361 is the only
variation. The only portion of the line which has not been
inquired into already before Parliament, and sifted to
the very bottom, is tiiis portion of 8A- miles; and there-
fore that is the only portion of the line upon which any
doubt can be thrown.—[A SHAREHOLDER asked: if the
varied line would be longer or shorter? and Mr.
Tooree was understood to say " shorter." He then
continued. 1 With respect to the new line, the Govern-
ment Commissioners have required from our engineers
a detailed estimate of the cost, which is now before the
Commissioners ; and therefore I am sure you will think it
right that it ehould not at present bo made a public docu-
ment, being in their possession for them to analyse. In
the report on the Stafford and Rugby line, which will in a
few weeks be made, the whole of these details will be fur.
nished ; and the Government Commissioners will, no
doubt, direct attention to the advantages in length, as well
as other qualities in the proposed line. But I think it
quite light to give the particulars of the estimates of this
varied line, from one end to the other, as submitted to the
Commissioners. They are :—Earthwork, 281,000/. ; ma-
sonry and tunnelling (there being a short tunnel required)
272,0001. ; permanent way, 340,0001 ; contingencies,
8,700/. ; making a total of 980,0001., or l 7,500/. per
mile, to which is to be added cost of land and stations. On
the former occasion, Mr. Bidder and Mr. \'ignoles agreed
precisely as to the land, and Mr. Locke added 30,0001. to
their estimates; therefore, we may say, that the value of
the land has been pretty well sifted already. The amount
of costs for stations on the line was put down at 46,0001.
on the last occasion ; but I apprehend that it will be under
30,000/., because the stations on the Stafford and Rugby
line will be just like the ordinary stations on the Grand
Junction and the London and Birmingham lines, the ordi-
nary roadside stations, the traffic not being collected at
theta, but at Manchester, Birmingham, or London; there-
fore the stations would bo wholly of an economical nature. I
den't'ithink that I need say more with respect to the probable
cost of this line. I think that no Shareholders ever before
had the same opportunity of judging of the probable cost
of their line before the Act of Parliament for it was ob-
tained.—( Applause.)—Dr. LYON Allow me to ask whe-
ther the land between Stafford and Rugeley will not cost
more than that from Stone to Rugeley.—Mr. Enewerm
TOOTAL: Some portion will, but some portion will not
cost more than other portions of the line, on the esti-
mote given in for the land on a former occasion ; and that
includes all the "ornamental property," which You have
heard mentioned, that was upon the old line. If any gen-
tleman wishes to have further information with respect to
the cost of the line, or anything else, I shall be happy to
give it. Then, as to the cost of the permanent way,—but
if we look to the South-Western Railway, their permanent
way is taken at 5,500/. per mile—yours is put down at
6,000/. [A SHAREHOLDER: What is the cost of perma-
nent way on the Manchester and Birmingham Line?)
The Manchester and Birmingham, I believe, is 6,500/. ;
but they had adopted longitudinal timbers on account of
their viaducts. Dues it occur to any gentleman to ask any
other question ?—A SII AREHOLDER, who had misunderstood
a former statement, asked as to it, and Mr. TOOTAL said that
the last estimate given embraced the whole line 7—Mr.
Bruerie said that a printed paper had been distributed
at the doer of the Company's offices pretty freely
[signed " Thomas Landor, agent to the Marquis of An.
glesey"), which stated the names of seine landowners on
the varied line. Had they any greater interest in opposing
it than the old line? Did the old line cut through any of
this ornamented property, which was so sacred ?—Mr. E.
Towne I trust you will bear with me. I am sure
Shareholders will not intentionally put such questions as
would be likely to damage the undertaking. With respect
to the Marquis of Anglesey, I have before me a document,
when an application was made for this Bill last year, in
which the name of the Noble Marquis appears as the fist
assenting nobleman. The fact was, that the varied line
would pass through a farm of his, about four miles from
Beandesert, and be was now to be found amongst the dis-
sentients; but any gentleman who has been connected with
railways for some years will be aware, that the less that is
said about this the better. I don't wish to say anything
unpleasant to the Noble Marquis, or to any one; but gentle-
men know that there have been opponents to railways be.
fore ; but they don't always continue opponents. I may
just say that the Marquis is not unfriendly to the rail-
way ; he has at all times been friendly to the under-
taking; but he does not like its present route, as re-
gards its passing through this farm. It is possible,
that an alteration might be made, whether without great
difficulty I don't know, but it is possible ; and I repent,
that the Marquis is not unfriendly to the line, but only to
this particular portion. His son is Member fur Lichfield ;
this line is vitally important to Lichfield ; and I have no
doubt that Lord Alfred Paget might be induced to use his
influence with his father to withdraw his opposition, and
thus let Lichfield have the benefit of the position in which
he is placed—Mr. WRATISLAW said he had looked at the
list of the other names advertised as dissentient landowners
and occupiers ; and he would say, that it was a very
-dif-
ferent list of opponents from the former one —(ar.)
_A Simenettomme—What advantages do you propose by
substituting the new for the old line ? Mr. E. TOOTAL
They arc fully expleinnil in the Report which has been
read ; but the principal feature is, that, so far as has been
shown, the new line will embrace the entire traffic from
Liverpool, Chester, Neal' Wales, Ireland, and Scotland ;
while, on the last occasion, we did not take credit
for a single shilling of this traffic.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. Bremer : May the Shareholders be informed what
agreements have been made with the various Railway
Companies ? There is some agreement with the Grand
Junction Company. Are they to have any extra
profit from this line ? There is a branch to the
Birmingham and Derby Line, and there will, doubt-
less be some arrangement made there ; and I think
there is one if not two more Companies with which this
Company are to make some arrangements. Now, if three
or four slices arc gm out to obtain the consent of these
Companies, it appears to me, that the money which the
Shareholders arc sinking will be given to the public with-
out any return to themselves.—Mr. E. TOOTAL ; We know
nothing with respect to any contemplated arrangement
with any other Company ; and, as to this Company being
connected with other railways by short lines, I think we
must reverse the position of Mr. Bright, and say, that in-
stead of their being suckers from the line, they are feeders.
We present the shortest line to the cast, and the line be-
comes a feeder, and draws the whole traffic into it.—Mr.
BRIGHT : But don't you purchase some part from the other
Company?—Mr. TOOTAL: Certainly not.— Mr. Wnemene:
And the opposition of the Midland Counties Company is
based on the very principle, that we give to the Birming-
ham and Derby Line an advantage which it does not
now possess, and that we thus enable the Berming.
ham and Derby Company to compete with the Mid-
land Counties Company, by giving the former the ad-
vantage of bringing their traffic upon our line, and
so make the route much shorter than it is at
presont.—Mr. RAWSON : If I understand Mr. Bright's
question, it is in substance—Have you not enabled
the Grand Junction Company to go over the Extension
Line at a less rate than otherwise they could do according
to the Parliamentary rate?—Mr. TooTAL : No Company
in the kingdom dots, I believe, charge the Parliamentary
rate. The Grand Junction Company run over the Liver-
pool and Manchester Line ; many railway Companies run
to a great extent over other lines ; but none of them
charge tile Parliamentary rates.—Mr. JAMES BURT : And
we run over the Grand Junction Line, too.—Mr. JOSHUA
P. WESTHEAD : There seems to be a great deal of mis-
conception about this line, and the rates to other Com-
panies. I can only say that, if our line, or that applied
for in 1839, had been secured, and we were now ready
for operation ; and if the Grand Junction Company were
at this time to make an offer exactly similar to that which
is contained in the arrangement to which reference has
been made, I, as a Proprietor of this Company, should
jump at it. [The CHAIRMAN and !Ur. CHAPPELL ex-
pressed their concurrence with this statement.)—A
SII A REHOLDER : But we don't read in the Report what
that arrangement is, and we are not told about
Mr. CHAPPELL : Why put a sword into youCle"inhya'sd
hand to cut your own throat?—Mr. BRIGIIT sal he
attended a meeting here twelve months agoh, at which
was then
he did not speak or take any part;
excessively annoyed at what appeared to btbuC the ddeisairenootf
the Directors to keep everyth,eg
thei e .
Company ; but
want them to tell anything
everything else he houreous
theyto
ought to make
was quita_surcHNkwii
known to the Shareholders.. Mr. ERI begged
nyotanbdewliilkleinlyg to
to say, that the Direetors.vierequriNtveoure'ldad
tell anything and everything that
injure the interests of the Shareholders generally ; but no
eynhtsadagobaitna
would expect. them to tell many
obtained e
them
their
nAct,
man in his sense;things
which they could do, providoepdptohne
an opposition, and ready to take advantage of every-
when they had so many
deadly
thing and anything that occurred. The Shareholders all
knew, that with the Committees and the Standing Orders
they could not make known
of the House of Commons,
many things which they should otherwise do, merely be-
cause of technical objections; not, certainly, because of
aeything of vital importance, bat simply because of tiles(
legal difficulties ; and he was sure, when the Share-
!udders read the publications constantly appearing

was a good thing, and some that it was a very 'bed
Be that as it might, this Extension Camp ny had grantL,;k
the use of its line to the said Grand Junction C.,%llr.ity at.
a higher rate by thirty per cent.—( Hear. )--Mr. RAWSON
was very glad of it. That was one of the thii:gs
wanted to hear. He stood there a little in awe of the
Directors; but not a man present w.is in better temper
with the Directors than himself. lie would Irtrt the:,

with untold gold, but lie never liked to trus: to the judg-
ment of othere when he could form one fir himself. He

I.:liev-ed that he should assent to the new line, if t!;0

pany were dissolved ; but yet he thought it hut fair to let
all the Shareholders have fair play ; knd if this Cowpony
were dissolred to-day, those parties who did not wish to go
on, would not be so well dealt by,—Mt. T(:OTAL 9itid, Oen-

tiernen were aware thet Parliament met on toe 2U. b ol this
month, and that the petition for this Act must be ptesonted
within a fortnight :deer the meeting of Parliement ;
and, if this were not done, ail the previous cutlay, time,
and labour, would be worth nothing, and would go foe
nothing. The Company wee now in a fit state to apply
to Parliament in all respects. The preliminary preeeed-
logs bad been taken with the
wihotith a duetmostporsesigbalred careto 'thatmen could give to them, ~.1
econo-
my ; arid he felt satisfied that shonid Parliament inquire
into the preparations for this application for Lill Act, the
Lets would be very satisfeetory to those oat of e hose
pockets the expenses came.—The CHAIRMAN asked if
there was any other question which any gentic,„in present
wished to ask of Mr. Toutal.—Mr. WRATISLAW thought
he understood the position of the Shareholders by this
alteration to be this—that according to the line that Went
by Stone, we had the Manchester traffic brought upon our
line. In the varied line, in addition to that, we have the
prospect of all the Liverpool, North Wales, and Leek
traffic.—Mr. Tooeee : Distinctly so,—Mr. BRIGHT : And
yet you lose a great maw arguments that you kad relive
you went to Parliament last time.—Me. NEWuaY : I beg
your pardon ; but is it desirable that we ibould put argu-
ments in our enemies' mouths ?—Mr. BreenT: But elsese
arc so palpable that even a child might perceive them.—Mr.
NEWBERY : Then it is surely not worth while to eceupy the
time of this meeting with them. If it only ested nith the
Shareholders, it would he different, but we shati eerier pies
Parliament, if we thus give every advantage to our °Ho-
nores as to any week peint we may have. I think this ie
the common-sense view of the case.—Mr. RAWSON : Well,
whether we are wrong or not, they certainly are in the
wrong.—A SHAREHOLDER said he did not see why the
meeting could not hare some statement of the accounte
and the funds of the Company.—Mr. Wriereen : The
recounts are to be audited before they can be laid before.
the Shareholders; and at present the Directors ere the
sole creditors of the Company, having found all the money
hitherto required. There is a resolution for the appoirt-
ment of auditors to be passed by this meeting. [Mr.
Wheeler read it.] So that in fact the state of the tic
counts is required to be ascertained by auditors to be ap-
pointed by this meeting.—Mr. BRIGHT : Is it not of sorra
consequence, that anyperson who votes for the de,solution
this Company, without intending to become a Shareholder
in the new concern, should know lien much the balance
would be that will come to his char ?—Mr. TOOTAL
The probable balance will be somewhere about 31. I
don't apprehend there will be less then 31, ; but of course,
in an affair of this sort, it could not be brought into view
all at once ; for I ploy mention that the last preparation
for Parliament was only made on the sth cf this month.,---
Mr. WRATISLAW : Then I understand that the deposit N`-'%o.
made to go to Parliament for the former line, and the v. e -
sent line, being six miles shorter, would not require
much capital capital by 110,0001. ; and, therefore, there is in
enough to complete the line.—Mr. TOOTAL : The veried
line n six miles shorter ; but some portion of the works
from Stafford to Rugeley would be more expensivo.—"•-:,
WRATISLAW : I only want to understand in—whether
last estimate is sufficient to complete the line.—'l
CHAIRMAN and Mr. Tooeet. :—Oh, certainly : quite en
ficient.—The resolution for the reception of the Repo:,
was then put from the chair, and passed nem. dis.
Mr. G. R. CHAFFELL then moved the stecond reeolutine
declaring the Company dissolved (which, with the Lei.
resolutions, will be found in our advertising columns). He
said, I do not move this from choice, or from my own dis-
position to dissolve the Company, but from the necessity
which exists at the present moment; that every Share-
holder may have his choice, either of retiring, from the un-
dertaking, or continuing to be s Shareholder in it. I have
given you my opinion as an individual before ; and, if a
Company be established from this or arty other meeting,
to carry on the concern, I shall feel happy to become a
Shareholder in any new Company. It would grieve me
exceedingly, that an undertaking like this, designed to
benefit Manchester, and belongtn, to Manchester espe-
cially, Should be given up, because of the opposition nti
other Companies, who arc not taking the right or the best
inlay to oppose it. The peeeniary proposition made twelve
montini ago only provoked our contempt. if that (3„me
pany (the London and Birmingham) lied wisely considered
their interest, they would have offered a sum that might
have been an inducement to the poetporesnient of this
undertaking for three or four vents to come. But they
base now sent a letter which betray e itself to bq Qf se.
thoughtless, imbecile, and childish a el4ratster, that we
must be pretty idiots to regard it. They say they don't
mean to make us the pecuniary offs they made twelve
months ago. Why, we never asked them.—The CHAIR-
MAN : Piet letter should be read. --Mr. CHAPPELL: Yee,
certainly ; I beg that it may be read. —The CHATRMAN
This in a letter I received on Seturdey last, addressed t
me, by favour of Mr. T. Csoke, and accompanied with a
request that it might be read to the meeting
London and Birmingham Railway.
Euston Station, 7th Jan. 1841.
My Dear Sir,—ln consequence of observations which have
reached me, leading to the inference, that, in the event of the
re-constitution of the Extensiou Company, the Subscribiwe to
that projec'ed undertaking might expept, a renewal of the
pecuniary offer made last year to that body by the London and
Birmingham and Midland Counties Companies, will you allow
me to take the opportunity, through the medium of oar inn-
tual friend; Mr. Cooke, of removing any -such irapressiim,
by stating most explicitly, that no such intention exists on the
part of those Companies ?
I will not take up your time and attention by recapitulatinr
the reasons which, under the instructions of the Proprietor,:
have determined the Directors of the London anti Birmiegke
Company in continuing to give their most. strenuous oppositioi,
to the Extension Line. At the same time, het me mare you,
and the Directors of the Manchester and Cr'we Line, of the
earnest desire of the Board to place at your disposal every fa-
cility at the stations, both in London and Birmingham, ne-
earrying on the traffic of Manchester upon a footing entire;];
independent of any other business. and to renew the offer el
entering iato any arrangements for the working of the tin--
which may be deemed conducive to the convenience and
vantaeeous to the trade of that tewn.—Believe me to retie-
my dear Sir, yours very favourably,
GEO. CARR GLYN.

Thomas Ashton, Esq. &e.,
Mr. Cuarrsoo, said, that gentlemen might charge tio
memory with the statements macle by the London and Bir-
iringham Company twelve months back, and the reasone
they e.ssigned why it would be ruinous to this Company to
pursue the undertaking. They then argued, that a ''.ol-
- in the undertaking would be ruinous to us •all ;
and then they said:—" NVe will give you 20,0001. to drop
it." What could be more ridiculous than to ofre..
us
20,000/. to drop a concern that they believed would be
ruinous to a rival Company ? Then here comes a letoer—
there not having been the slightest insinuation, as La be-
lieved, that any renewal of the offer was expected—jost as
if some overtures had been made by us to them, to settle
this business before going toe arliament ! Why, really,
it is children's play. We rnot intending to take any
such offer, if it were made. If it plesed the Shareholdt.;e
to re-elect the Directors, he for cne (though he had nc
disposition to increase his busi eto would serve the
Company faithfully and gratuitously ; or, if they thougi.t
fit to reject him, he would willingly retire, but cnu-
tinue to be a Shareholder.--Nie. Alderman 800
seconded the resolution, and said, that, from the oppovo-
tion manifested, cud the quarter it:cameAem, ho was satis--
fied that this was a very good line, particularly l‘oking to
the papers and publications circulated against it, and to
the fact that Mr. Ashworth, the agent for two other line.,
was active against it. As to the letter from the London
and Birmingham Company', it looked as if the, vranteti s', •
make a bargain with us ; and as we did not move, their
did.—( Hear.) They thought it was their turn to move,
and so down came this letter ; but from the proceedings
of this meeting they would find that we were not to be
tickled in that way.—Mr. H. NEwitlinv said that an,otteK
letter had been lately sent from Mr. 13urke, the I 711e-1
mentary agent to the London and Birmingham Railway
e;
tebpuntn
yh ew de
dh ospe
twioeuttiedrapwpleliaert:
Company, which he should have liked to, read to. .the
meeting, but could not without Mr. Burke.; permission,
and that not having been obtained, the Shart.holdets
Issahidthiat
twheartethneot
Lineefdeellnpaoesdsesusioirimi oinfgthheanclas.ce
Mr. Burke had addressed
,to the Manchester and 13,,0
it just to themselveia:idr. uFs,sKton.ip„ua
mif intghli'samCoCm°pmaPnaynY.were now dissolved., that merely the
balance now in hand, after paylin,g ali exparea, wbuid
be divided amongst the sharelhters pro rata per share',
But the new Company would derive ail the benefit of the
expenditure hitherto made.,. which was already large r-
and they would go to I ornament Upon a niueli better
footing of advantage than those who dissented' rLi
the concern, and lost their money. Was it proposed ..
that the new Company should give to the old Cumpa
oNvue\rvilanEdßya..bocveertwaihnalyt
naepti.)—e a re\eldr
jt olmbEes *Bt ea d
te
a? p—p-
ears
any part of the money expended, say / or 2/ per shar
to
pa
emye
abouta mo stteehxet rfaeorrmd
ei nda
trey
ctahrinrygotno
as
nu pepnods et, t
at
kh
ja m
undertaking
a shouldo
give a bonus to those who refuse to join it.—Mr. Ear -
RIGGE said, that all the money that the retiring Share-
holders would lose had been expended in surveying,
making plans and estimates, and in contesting the line ;
for a great deal of opposition hind been bought off by the
money of the old Shareholders.—( Several DIRECTOW-
" No, no.")—Well, the opposition 'had been overcome at
any rate, and the money had been spent in overcoming it.
—The CHAIRMAN : But the Company being dissolved
does not deprive the bolder of any shares of. his option:
He has a choice in it, either to go out or to .join the new
Company. If he can make anything of his shares, he
can either hold them or sell them.—Mr. ESKRIGGE : But
will not the new Oompany derive great advantage frem
the money already expended?—Mr. TOOT/kJ, : Let me
state distinctly and explicitly, that no money has been
paid for any such, purpose as buying off' opposition.—
Mr. ESKRIGOE : ery probably, money has not been
paid ; but some of our opponents have bad' money's
worto.—Nlr. TooTAL : Certainly not.—Mr. Alderman
Beat ohoi
nag s
has Perhaps we have agreed to give something, but
TOOTA : NO ; nor pro.
eheen