The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-24 00:00:00

EVENING, APRIL 24, 1847.

tition, but he could not refrain from saying that it was
most respectably signed.
Mr. Alderman HUMPIIERY and Capt. PECHELL
presented petitions against the Government scheme.
WESLEYANS.

Mr. T. DI7NCOMBE presented a petition from a
meeting of Wesleyans repudiating the compromise en-
tered into with the Government by some of their own
body.
GOVERNMENT SCHEME OF EDUCATION.

Sir W. CLAY moved, on the motion that the Speaker
do leave the chair on going into Committee of Supply,
with a view to the grant for the promotion of education,
that it is expedient that in any plan for promoting
the education of the people by pecuniary assistance from
the State, provision should be made that in schools re-
ceiving such assistance, the opportunity for participating
in all instruction other than religious should be afforded
to children whose parents mayobject to the religious doc-
trines taught in such schools. Having stated the reasons
which induced him to withhold his support, he should be
enabled to comprise his observations in a very short space
The House had thought fit to affirm by a very large
majority the plans brought forward by the Government;
he bowed to that decision; but he deeply regretted
it. The House, instead of endeavouring to form a plan
of national education, placed itself at the head of a vast
sectarian scheme. As far-as he was concerned he should
offer no. further opposition to that plan in its general cha •
ratter; but he should by his motion, endeavour to alter a
portion of it ao defective, that he thought that his Noble
Friend would hardly oppose the remedy he proposed.
The part of the plan to which he alluded, was that which
took from the children of those persons who differed from
the Church of England all power of sharing in the elu-
tion which was furnished at the expense of the State with-
out becoming parties to a religion which they did not own.
The present measure would operate most unjustly against
the Nonconformists. In every parish in the kingdom
there would be a school established in connexion with
the Church, and they would be enabled to comply with
the conditions laid down in the Minutes of Education,
so as to participate in the grant. On the other hand, in
the rural districts the Nonconformists would rarely be
able to comply with the conditions for a separate school,
and they would either be obliged to send their children
to the Church school, or go without altogether. The
Hon. Member here read an extract from -a petition of
the LOndon Auxiliary School Union, respecting the in-
vidious distinction. The petition was entitled to great
consideration, representing ninety-seven schools. He
thought the injustic of which he spoke ought to be re-
medied, and therefore he proposed the present motion.
If it were agreed to, and the Minute altered in ac-
cordance with it, then there would be difficulty in
educating the children of both parties together.
Now he directed his observations solely to the case, that
those who were in the minority, either in numbers or in
wealth, had no right to complain—firstly, because he
believed that they would meet with the sympathy of the
House ; and secondly, because it was asserted that the
children of Dissenters might obtain their education in
the schools of the Church of England. Of course, where
the Church of England was in the minority, the converse
of this position would take place. He should therefore
move, that in all schools which might be established
through the aid of the Government grant, provision
should be made for giving to the children of Dissenters
all the instruction afforded other than religious.
On the motion that the order of the day be now read,
Mr. CHRISTIE said that it was with great pain he
refused to accede to the request of his constituents, to
oppose the motion olthe Government, and instead of op-
posing it, he felt bound to give, not a cold and heart-
less, but a cordial and earnest support to the plan.
He had • made many ineffectual attempts to catch the
Speaker's eye during the last debate ; had he succeeded
in doing so, it was his intention to have stated the
grounds upon which he was prepared to give his most
cordial assent to the measure proposed by the Govern •
meut. With respect to the amendment just proposed to
the House, he thought that the proposed plan of the
Government for considering such cases as those referred
to by the Hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Sir W.
Clay) as special cases, and treating them as such, would
sufficiently meet all the difficulties referred to by the
Hon. Member. He considered that the proposed
minutes had been treated rather unfairly by the
opponents to the measure.—(Hear.) In the year 1832 a
law was passed, placing the Catholics and the Jews upon
precisely the same footing as the various sects of the
Protestant Dissenters, and he hoped that as the claims
of the Catholics were promised to be attended to by the
Government, that the claiins of the. Jews would not be
overlooked. The Hon. Member for Kent (Mr. Plumptre)
had stated that the House would, by giving assistance to
the Roman Catholics, bring upon itself the charge of in-
fidelity. Upon such a subject he (Mr. Christie) could
not quote a higher authority than that of the late Ed-
mund Burke, who stated, in his correspondence which
had been recently published, that a system of full, fair,
and perfect toleration would be in perfect accordance
with his own opinions, and that his views of toleration
were even more universal than the ideas entertained upon
that subject by the Dissenters themselves. In the com-
mittee of supply they would be called upon to vote nu-
merous sums for the cause of education. Among others
there would be a vote for the London University, to the
benefits and scholarships of which the sons of Dissenters
showed not the slightest objection to participate in the
advantages conferred by the State, and shared equally
with themselves by the Roman Catholics, and he would
ask the Wesleyans, who had shown such a decided anti-
pathy to allow the Roman Catholics to have any share
of the Government funds for the purpose of education,
how it was that they could reconcile the fact of their
allowing their sons to mingle in that University with the
Roman Catholics ?

Mr. VILLIERS did not think that the charges of ineon-
sistency brought forward by the Honourable Member for
Weymouth (Mr. Christie) could at all dispose of the
objections urged by the Honourable Member for the
Tower Hamlets, which was the duty of affording extended
education to the children of the Dissenters. The Dis-

senters were, it appeared, resolved to refuse the assistance of
the Government, and this he thought would be a lesson to the
Government not to leave the subject of the education of the
people in the hands of any religious societies. Should the
Dissenters refuse the aid of the Government, the consequence
would be that a great number of the children of this country
would be left without education, and the efforts of the Govern-
ment to educate the people would eventually be made, through
one religious society alone. He thought it most desirable that
there should be a general system of education, in the benefits
of which all could equally pertake, and this could only be
done by separating the secular and religious education of the
people. He quite agreed in the opinion of Dr. Vaughan, that
in all schools connected with the Government provision should
be made for the religious education of the children, who
might thus be allowed the benefit of such education in such
cases as their parents might think desirable. He thought
such a system was the only practicable one that could be carried
out. He was quite ready to admit that they were at present
only in the infancy of the cause of education, and
he was happy to hear the Noble Lord et the head of the Go-
vernment, say that the present measure was not a final one
and that his wishes lay in the direction of a more extensive plan
of education. The Noble Lord had done all that he could do
in the cause, and he thought that for ssch a cause he was de-
serving of praie. He could not, therefore, join in the oppo-
sition which had been raised (he must say most unexpectedly
to him) to the proposition of the Government. If he under-
stood his Noble Friend, the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government, in the two speeches which had been delivered by
him on the subject, he said that he had been anxious to attend
to the wish of this country to extend the benefits of education to
the poor, that he had done as much as was possible with the mate-
rials which were at hand, that he did no; dispair for the future
but that the system for the time being was not complete. But
he (Mr. Villiers) did not join with those who objected to the
plan. He thought that the Dissenters is the objections which
they had taken had rather taken their friends by surprise. Consi-
dering the subject before the House merely in the view of a
money vote, he could have no objection to the manner in
which the discussion had been introduced into the House.
But lie was sorry that such a subject should have been dis-
cussed as an item in the miscellaneous, ind that no time had
been given for the discussion of any amendments that might
have been introduced upon it. He knee that the Noble Lord
at the head of the Government lad stated that no
more sums of money would be yetis( for this purpose.
except by Bills brought before Parliammut. (Lord J. Russell
—No, not by Bills.) He certainly expected that the same
order which had always ruled in that I bus° on religious mat-
ters, should have been observed on that. They know that no-
thing affecting either religion or commerce could be brought in
unless in a Committee of the whole Hulse. That made him
think the amendment moved by the Hcn. Member for Fins-
bury (Mr. Duncombe) somewhat approriate, and therefore he
did not vote against it. At the same t,me, he thought the
Government had met with great difficul ies, and they had con-
tended with them to the utmost ; they lad done all that they
could. Therefore he hoped that the words of the Right
Honourable Baronet the Member for Tamworth in
the House last night, would be pondered over throughout
the country when he in effect said that that was not the time
of day when they ought to exclude the children of the poor
from the benefits of education by sq""'sl,es "non
which It pursued must necessarily retain the country hopelessly
in the same situation as it was at the present moment in regard
to education. _

Mr. FORBES felt it necessary, after all that took place in
that House, not to vote on the measure without some
explanation. He understood that it had always been con-
sidered, in the country as well as in the House,
that the authorised version of the Scriptures should be
made use of in the Government schools, and inculcated there
as a part of the education. But after th?, motion of the Hon.
Baronet, the Member for Surrey, and after the speeches of the
two Right Hon. Baronets last night, he felt it necessary to
give any vote associated with such an opinion as he had heard,
his most decided opposition.
Mr. MUNTZ said that he had endeavoured, throughout the
discussion, to hear wherefore he should vote for the Government.
He had suffered too much from the interference of secular and
religious questions with liberty, not to have thought seriously
on every such question coming before the House. But he ob-
jected to the proposition of the Government. The proposal
was not to educate the people, but the poor.
but he objected to
He did not object
to the amount to be levied for that obect •
the principle. That • ' principle was tel tax' the
whole in
to give it to a section of the on. That
order
net
was the principle which he always objected to in all measures,
motion
and he therefore felt the more inclined to support the
of the Hen. Member for Surrey. The benefit of a good edu-
cat ion on all classes, and especially the labouring classes:l was
e ha ad
clearly evident to him, after the long perience h
been said that a
of the employment of workmen. But itex had That id
secular education was necessarily a gedle,s 'me'
parents, who
not follow, for the children were left to theirinstruction they
were at liberty to give them spiritual
what
ular educe-
thought proper. He had long thought that a see
to be that
tion, founded on a general national system, ought
adopted. ed. He thought so still, and he would therefore vote
for the proposition of the Government.
Mr. STAFFORD 0 n
--:—RIEN regretted that such a qtes-
tier, as a vote for education shouldn , occasion, be im-
peded by religious differences. He on
envoetr'see how they could
each individual
ever progress out of their present condition, if scheme,
Member in that House stood up, .advocated his °wll
What was very
and professed his determination tpo, follow that.
singular in the historyquestion, was
of theagitation n this
o ,an, an entirely
that among the opponents to
different grade of opinio the Government P'
,dsted out of doors
from those which had been and
principles c.- in the House.
All the communicar been expressed
been
ions which had addressed
Northamptonshire
to him fro
thee
.
m e northern division of
in Opposition to the scheme foundedtheir opposition to it
.orr
, t on those which
the objections urged In Crosby Hall, and ne the "
by —on.
he had heard advocated in that House, either for Durham.
Member for Nottingham, or the Hon. Member
.
If the Nonconformists who bound thenaselves up with "

liturgy be thought to be in a state of permanence as regarded
theology, so far might they be regarded as in a state of per-
manence in political opinion. Therefore the Hon. Member
for Wolverhampton had no right to be surprised at what fell
from the Hon. Member for Durham. Those who petitioned
at Crosby Hall were not to be met with statistics of crime,
and then asked, was such a state of things to exist ?
For they said that they i egretted such facts as much
as they did lust. They believed that the course
pursued by the Government, would not ameliorate, but would
rather do harm than anything else. He wished some Hon.
Member would get up in that House, and show that the Mem-
bers for Durham and Nottingham, and the meeting at Crosby
Hall, had pursued a course inconsistent with their own prin-
ciples. Such a statement had not been as yet made, and
therefore he considered that the destitute condition of the
people had been unfairly pressed as an answer to their objec-
tions. The object of education ought to be to secure the in-
stitutions of the country, and to render life and property more
secure than hitherto. This did not appear to him capable of
being effected without pions, religious, and secular instruction.
Dr. BOWRING said that he felt it a shame and an oppro-
brium to the country in which they lived that the people should
have been left in the condition in which they now found them.
Switscrland, Germany, and the Continent excelled them. He
must acknowledge that the voluntary principle had failed to
convey instruction to the great masses. He only regretted
that the project of her Majesty's Government was so framed
that it could not dispense the blessings of education. It had
never succeeded anywhere, and it never would. He always
believed that secular instruction was eminently religious ; it
taught Christian charity, and the duties which one man owed
to another. Was not this religious ? But what was generally
meant by religion ? Why he found that the dis-
tinctions of creed were those which were understood.
As far as he could see his way in this question, there was only
one solution of it. Ile desired to see religious education
extended, but he did not wish to see that religion enforced by
one class over the consciences of other classes. In order that
religious instruction might be effectual, they ought to let that
instruction be given by the clergymen of the sect to which the
parents belonged—by the'paren:s and by the guardians of the
children themselves. There was no such thing recognised on
the continent as a religious education. He had visited con-
tinental schools, and he had asked the masters what was the
religion of the parents of the scholars, and the utmost astonish-
ment was expressed that he should have asked such a question.
He grieved to think that into this great field of national bene-
volence so much religious acrimony—so many antipathies—so
much bitter animosity—should have penetrated. He, perhaps,
did not know like these opponents, what was charity, and he
held that on the side of animosity was error, and on the side of
truth was charity.
Mr. TRELAWNY said, that if he were disposed to oppose
the grant of her Majesty's Government he should not do so on
the ground that the grant was unconstitutional. Nor did he
object to the grant because it was different from the former
grants. He sincerely believed that this was essentially the
same with the grant of 1839. Neither did he object to it on
account of its amount, for he thought it was a trifle when com-
pared to the importance of its object • but he did object to it
that it excluded the Roman Catholics from its advantages.
Neither would he object to it on the ground that it remunerated
young men who were fitted for the offices of monitors and
teachers. He, however, objected on principle to schools in
which religious tests obtained, because, as was proved by Dr.
Vaughan, they' would engender continual quarrels and
jealousies from the conflicting sectarian interests. He
thought it was a great hardship that Dissenters should
be obliged to receive religious instruction at Church
schools, because, while the Churchman alleged that
the Dissenters taught what was true, but that they did
not teach the whole truth, the Dissenters again said that
the Churchmen taught more than the truth; therefore,
although the former might receive instruction from the latter,
the latter, on every principle of justice, could not be compelled
to receive instruction from the former ; but in a matter of
education, he thought that the Dissenters had nothing to com-
plain of, because, although they might with justice complain of
the inculcation of doctrinal points, that objection could not
hold in a matter of secular instruction. He should give his
cordial support to the measure of the Government.

Mr. BIIoTHERTON said to fit a man for his duties in
time and eternity, there must be a higher, than mere secular
education. He might perhaps admit that this measure would
enhance the power of the Church, while it restrained that of the
Dissenters; but that was not the main question. The question
was, would it be for the good of the people ? He thought it
would, and therefore he should vote for it, inasmuch as he
thoUght that in so doing he was assisting the cause of the peo-
ple. The Hon. Member then proceeded to quote from the sta-
tistics of Manchester to show, that in the last few years the
proportion of those who could neither read nor write was in-
creased instead of diminished, arid this, he thought, furnished
sufficient proof that the voluntary system did not meet the exi-
gencies of the country. He concluded that the rights of con-
science ought to be respected. He recollected that our be-
loved Qneen had recommended that the rights of conscience
ought to be respected ; but how were those rights to be res-
pected if there were not opportunities given for the education
of the children of Dissenteri. He had many letters at the pre-
sent moment in his pocket, from Wesleyan Ministers, who com-
plained that there was no opportunity for the educa-
tion of their children under the agency of clergymen ; and
he was therefore ready to vote for any measure which
would have the effect of reducing this evil. They had taken
many measures for the punishment and for the correction of
criminals, but they had grievously neglected the prevention of
crime. He could not forget that they spent 2,500,0001. for
the punishment of crime. He recollected that they had spent
16,000,0001. in the army and navy, and yet they grudged the
money that was necessary for the improvement of the educa-
tion of the people, and he believed that if they meant to ob-
viate the evil they most make education on the basis of that
improvement. He could not forget that there were 20,000
churches, while there were 120,000 public-houses, and until
they soberised the people they could not possibly expect that
crime should be at all reduced. He had none of the preju-
dices against a dominant church which had been so loudly
proclaimed for if they were to look at the voluntary system
below the surface, they would see that there was much of
compulsion in it, for so long as the principle prevailed that the
lower classes depended upon the rich for their subsistence, there
must be a liability of the poor and labouring classes to be
oppressed by their more wealthy neighbours. He had voted in
the minority last night, but on a reconsideration of the cir-
cumstances he felt assured that many of the difficulties would
be obviated, and so long as the Commons of England had a
yearly power of controlling the principle by an annual vote,
they would have the means of exercising a judicious manage-
ment over the education which would be provided for the
people. With these views then he had no hesitation whatever
in supporting the plan of the Government.—( Cheers. )
Mr. ACLAND said that it was with great diffidence he
expressed his opinions on the present occasion, but a sense of
duty alone hark compelled him to state his feelings.
He had to-day received a letter from a clergyman whose name
if mentioned would command instant respect, but which he
should not state, because it was probable that if published it
might possibly lead to a breach of the harmony that
now existed between him and his dissenting brethren.—
( Hear, hear.) That clergyman had established five schools
in his parish, in which there were 1,130 schools, 351 of whom
alone were the children of members of the Church of England,
so that only one third'of the whole of the scholars were the
offspring of those who were likely to accede, without hesitation,
to the plan of the Government. In the whole of his course of
instruction, he had adopted the principle of uniform education,
and when it was put to the parents whether they would con-
tinue their children or not, but a very small number had been
inclined to withdraw their children. From another source he
had received a communication. It came from a clergyman who
had established, not day schools, but Sunday schools, and in
those schools he had adopted one uniform system of tuition, and
when it was put to the parents, they had, without hesitation,
declined from withdrawing their children from the school, so
that he was convinced that it was not because the Dissenters
objected to any system of education which might be adopted h)
the Church, but because he believed that they were indisposed
to hand over the souls of their children to the care of the
Church that they opposed the plan. But the plan
of the Government proposed nothing of the sort,
and the question then arose whether there was to be
any education adopted or not, and if the plan was to
be opposed, it was really to be considered whether it was ad-
visable to occasion an opposition from the clergy of the estab-
lished church, instead of a willing co-operation on a matter of
so much importance. Truly and sincerely did he thank the
Government for the minutes, for he believed that the plan was
likely to be of the greatest advantage to the country. He thought
that now the jealousy arising from the inspection of the State,
was entirely removed. Ile had entertained very serious ap-
prehensions as to the ultimate designs of the Committee of
Council on Education, but he now felt bound to say that the
Council had removed those apprehensions, and he for one
begged to express his admiration of the practical nature of the
details, and the fairness of manner in which those minutes had
been drawn up. He thought that really the Sunday-schools of
this country were not deserving of the obloquy which had been
cast upon them. He thought, indeed, that the teachers of
those schools who, voluntarily and at great trouble to them-
selves, devoted their time and attention to those
schools, were deserving of the greatest praise. He
must, however, admit that the schools established
throughout this country, were not altogether what
they ought to be, and in some cases the present minutes of
the Council would not reach the case of those schools, and he
hoped that on some future occasion the Committee of Council
might be enabled to prepare the minutes in such a manner as
to afford that advantage. He did not think that the present
Government were deserving of the charge which had been
brought against them, of not bringing the situation of the
Catholics, with respect to this measure, fully and fairly before
the House. He gave his most cordial thanks to the Govern-
ment for the measure they had introduced, and trusted that
the measure would fulfill the most sanguine expectations of its
promoters. The Dissenters had taken a great objection to an
expression used by a Right Rev. Prelate, with respect to the
ordination of the schoolmasters_ He (aer. Aoland) must say
that he should most decidedly object to the money, to be paid
to the schoolmasters, going to the support of ordained deacons.
He hoped that such a question would not again be disturbed by
a party spirit.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.

Messengers brought up several Bills from the Lords.
Mr. F. BERKELEY rose to oppose the proposition of the
Government He considered the whole vote if devoted to
education would be most worthily deserved. He, however,
disapproved of the way in which the Government had brought
in the subject ; for if it bad been introduced into the House in
the form of a Bill, althought they might for the most part have
acceded to the principle, they might have differed as to the details.
He fel.m t it necessary to disapprove of the domination which
the ehrew into the hands of certain parties named in-
spectors."e Who were these inspectors to be? Why, nine were
to be clergymen of the church of England, two of the church
of Scotland, two lay inspectors, and the remaining two were to
be dissenters. He did not wonder at the fears which had arisen
a
out of doors, when such proposal was made to increase the
wealth of a church whichi:talenads;l: possessed that in abundance.
It was less a source of
the people than of serious
consideration to the Members of that He was afraid
turn out as
whether this measure would not ultimately
great a failure in practice as the Small DettilloAct, which
the Member for Dorchester had prevailed on the
He felt it necessary to record his voutsec against
the some years ago.
the measure, and those with whom he had been in the habit of
acting.
Mr. PAKINGTON rose to call the attention of the House
back to the subject before it, viz., the amendment of the Hon.
Member for the Tower Hamlets. He felt himself obliged
to vote in favour of the principle of the amendment.
He was not prepared to give up the principle,
long held sacred in this country, of associating re-
ligious with secular education. Still he was not
ready at that moment to accede to any motion which would
make it compulsory on the schools in connexion with the
national system to adopt that as a part of their course. The
concession would very soon have to be made in favour of the
voluntary efforts in religious matters
Sir BENJAMIN HALL ALL thought that the great object of
the government, now that the House had assented to the
scheme of education, should be to render it as palatable as
possible to all classes of the people. He would therefore sup-
port the proposition of the Hon. Member for the Tower
Hamlets, and he was surprised to hear the course which the
Government were likely to pursue on this occasion. The Hon.
Gentleman was proceeding to enter into the general question,
when he was interrupted by Sir J. C. Hobhouse with the re-
mark that " Molesworth's motion came on on Monday." He
was aware that Molesworth's motion came on on Monday—
(Laughter)—but this was the twelfth time he had attempted
to address the House on this question, and he therefore thought
that h he eh no
941-d u
Permitted to expreso the opiaictue he ell

tertained upon it even though Molesworth's motion—
(Laughter)----did come on on Monday. He objected to the I
exclusion of the Roman Catholics from the grant, and he con-
sidered that any scheme having for its object the education
of the people, while at the same time it excluded
a large portion of the people from the benefits of it would never
give, and never should give, satisfaction to the country.—
( Hear, bear.) He thought that unless they passed some reso-
lution like that which was proposed by the Member for the
Tower Hamlets they would not give a fair encouragement to
the clergymen of those parishes to which he had before alluded,
He, as a landowner, was not prepared to set up schools where
the Dissenters would be excluded. He would not vote for any
system which comprehended a compulsory power;
he did not think that such a system could with
safety be applied to this country They were often
in the habit of hearing the Prussian system lauded, but what
was the fact, notwithstanding all this education in Prussia ?
The State was everything and the people were nothing. It
was true they had lately obtained some kind of a Liberal con-
stitution, but it could only be regarded as a step in the right
direction—(Hear, hear )—and nothing more. The Hon.
Baronet then read an extract from a letter written
by the Secretary for the Massachussets Board of Education,
which stated that he never saw a more vicious set of boys, and
evil passions more strongly developed in the countenances of
the people ; and he, the Hon. Baronet was yet to learn that the
people of Prussia, after three hundred years of a compulsory
system by her Government, were a better disposed people than
the English. Unless the Government gave some assurance
that they would carry some such proposition as that of the
Member for the Tower Hamlets, great dissatisfaction would
prevail. He voted . against the Government because he
thought the measure would widen the present religious differ-
ences which existed in the country.
Mr. HENLEY said that he thought the Hon. Baronet was
very unfortunate, because many gentlemen who expressed
themselves in favour of his principles, yet were determined to
vote against him, indeed two Right flon. Baronets on this
side of the House ( Sir R. Peel and Sir James Graham ),
while professing themselves to be strongly in favour of the
measure, threw in a few observations which were as little
likely to facilitate its passing through the House as the
explosion of a barrel of 'gunpowder.—(Loud laughter.)
He warned the Noble Lord at the head of the Government,
and those who were with him, and who were acting under the
paetence of these Minutes of Council, that if they attempted
to give the Church of England, or any body in this country,
any sort of aid in consequence of what was said in that House
—if they attempted to force on the Church of England the
education of the people in a way which it conscientiously be-
lieved. was not the right way—that they would meet with an
opposition which they had not calculated upon.—( Hear, hear.)
He should not have noticed this point so strongly had it not
been for the speech of the Noble Lord at the head of the Go-
vernment. The Noble Lord did in that speech use very strong
expressions, and he (Mr. Henley) could tell him, that they had
been much noticed in the country. It had been well said hi, a
high authority the other night, that the Church had of late
years, by the course it had adopted, taken a considerable hold
of the people. He would ask if that fact arose from the Church
having sacrificed its destinctive principles, or by any system of
slip slop religion? They knew that it was by their increased
zeal for the people's welfare. The Church stood more upon its
destinctive principles than it ever did, and honestly and stedfastly
refused to give up what he believed to be its right, and he
hoped that she would continue to stand fast upon her rights.
If, however, the Church was not to instruct the youth under
her charge in the religion she believed to be the true one, she
weuld not instruct them at all. Such had been the course.
taken by her during the last ten years, and owing to the zeal
and good conduct of her members she had obtained that love of
the people which the Right Hon. Bart. had alluded to. Hold-
ing that opinion as he did, it was impossible for him not to
vote against the amendment of the Right Hon. Baronet op-
posite.
Sir GEORGE GREY said that he would call the attention
of the House to the fact, that from the time his Right Hon.
Friend made his motion, until the time when the Hon. Mem-
ber who had just spoken arose, not one word had been said
with reference to the particular motion. The debate had been
entirely upon the general question—it was in fact a continua..
tion of the debate of the three preceding nights. He for one
was unwilling to interrupt the present discussion upon the ge-
neral question, and if gentlemen desired to express their opi-
nions, they had a right to take the present opportunity of
stating their sentiments The Hon. Member who had just
sat down had confined himself to the particular motion, and he
was free to say had called the attention of the House to it. He
differed from the Hon. Member in some points, and especially
in his supposition that the Government was about to adopt the
system proposed. He hoped that although it was not the in-
tention of Government to attempt to force or impose, as a ne-
cessary condition, upon all schools receiving the Government
aid, that they should extend their education and instruction to
the children of those parents who objected to the religious in-
struction of the Church of England—that the practice
was becoming prevalent in many cases, of not enforcing the
instruction in the catechism and liturgy upon the children of
those parents who objected to their receiving such instructions.
He rejoiced to say that that liberal feeling and good sense was
becoming daily more prevalent. Some short time since, an
Hon. Gentleman said in that House, owing to a similar sen-
timent expressed by his Noble Friend at the head of the Go-
vernment, that it was the intention of the Government—their
avowed intention to enforce such instruction as a
necessary condition on receiving those Government grants,
and he (Sir George Grey) had endeavoured to explain
a few nights since, that such an act would be totally inconsistent
with the course which the Government had in view. They
did not propose to establish a system, to imposs any conditions
as to the kind of instruction to be given in those schools re-
ceiving Parliamentary aid, they only proposed to assist existing
institutions to increase their usefulness and efficiency relating
to secular instruction, subject only to the condition of inspec-
tion. Ile confessed that if the Government adopted the prin-
ciple of his Hon. Friend, it would be totally inconsistent with
the desire they had to increase the voluntary efforts of large
bodies. The National Society and the British School Society
would have to remodel their arrangements. Such a proceeding
would put a stop to many voluntary efforts, which the Govern-
ment did not want to supersede. He thought, therefore, that
spoken,the ap eahsetnostihonescezdrueestsetolfbtyhtehGe
oliznim.mMeenzbwer!vireho
,hotdvrlaesiti
to wish it, that perhaps by a voluntary arrangementwas
itethceolsnesisctit:ini_t
of every denomination
dren of differentthe sleecatss t in mightreriaf
interfering
nbgbr
othhut together—thatn de a
without in cm tothers religious
Such a wish was different from enforcing this
.'sCltiool regulation in the arbitrary manner which the Hon.
Member had mentioned. He should, therefore, not feel at
liberty to support the motion of the Right Hon. Baronet.
Mr. ROEBUCK said that there was one thing very grati-
fying to all the friends of a liberal education in this
country, to see the very many attempts which were made to
forward this educational measure continued in the universal
feeling expressed by every person whose opinion was worth
having on this matter, as to the absolute nece of some
education,for the people, and also the discusaio i s ;to what
sort of education was most fit for her Majesty's subjects. He
wished even at that late hour if the House would permit him
to Bay a few words as to the principle which governed that
vote. It remained now to be admitted as a general principle
that it was the duty of the Government to provide, or attempt to
educate the people. The other question they had to consider
in spite of the intelligence out of doors, was the nature of the
education to be so bestowed. It had been admitted that the
Government was justified in attempting to educate the people,
and therefore he should not attempt to prove it. He would
assume also that it was the business of the Government to edu-
cate the largest number of the population that it was possible.
The Noble Lord the Member for London and the Right Hon.

Member for Tamworth stated together that it wouldbe of no
use to give the people half an education. If the Government
objected to give half an education to the people, there
was certainly a difference between doing that and
giving an education to half of the people. He
would give the children in these schools knowledge on
which all parties were agreed. Whether it were geography,
mathematics, or any other branch of knowledge, it mattered
nothing, they all agreed as to the necessity of teaching it,
whether they were Roman Catholics, Baptists, or Presby-
terians. He now came to the fashioning of the habits of the
rising generation. This consisted in the moral influence of the
family, the opinion of society, the law, and the influence of a
future state of reward for virtuous conduct. All these went to
form the character of the individual. Now, what he would
wish to know was, whether any difference existed among
all these parties as to the teaching of them.
No, they all agreed in the obligations of the
moral law, and in inculcating a belief in a future state of re-
wards and punishments as beneficial to the habits and conduct
of the children who were to be taught. Whether they dis-
puted about consubstantiation or transubstantiation, the Douay
version or the authorised version of the Scriptures, they all
agreed as to the teaching of the moral principles to which he
had referred. It was only when they introduced their fantastic
dogmata, supported by prejudice, passion, and ignorance, but
not by virtue, that they differed and disputed. It was by these
dogmata, these peculiar theological opinions, that disturbances
were created, and a noise made about the necessity of a reli-
gious system of education. Let them avoid such causes of dis-
pute as these, and in their education admit only of such religi-
ous teaching as was permanent and common to all, and which
did not raise the phantom of religious hatred and enmity
throughout the kingdom. What he would ask on the present
occasion was, did the Government not introduce into their
scheme that religion about which there was no difference,
and that religion about which so much difference
prevailed? Take the Roman Catholics. Among them there
were many men who were good fathers, brothers, citizens, and
Christians, in spite of their religious prejudices. The same
might be said of all the other religious sects, in spite of all
their differences. What, then, did the Noble Lord mean by
this teaching of religion which he proposed? He (Mr. Roe-
buck) did not object to their teaching the moral duties of life,
and to a state of reward for virtue hereafter ; but he objected
to their laying down any standard by which other men were
to be judged on religious matters. The Hon. Member ( Mr.
Plumptre) had endeavoured to lay down such a standard,
and had said as much as that all who would not
agree with him would be doomed. (Hear, hear. )
If the Hon. Member had substituted a for o perhaps he
would have much better expressed his real meaning.—(Loud
laughter.) He objected to this setting up of authority. The
Wesleyans had come in, and they had objected to the Roman
Catholics participating in any of the grant in a document they
had recently issued ; and they, fainting with a glorification
that they hoped ere long to have full religious toleration. Such
toleration with them, however, meant, that it be only tolera-
tion of their own sect. They wished to exalt themselves as
the standard of all virtue. He, however, had no faith In
such toleration.—Hear, hear.) It would appear that the
Wesleyans had entertained some doubt as to the
minutes of council, because it appeared to favour the suppo-
sition that the Roman Catholics would be allowed to partici-
pate in the grant ; but now, it would appear, after sending
applications to the Government, their minds, it would seem
had been partially satisfied. The Roman Catholics were to be
excluded. There satisfaction was in proportion to the exclusion
of the ether party. He must say the conduct of the Govern-
ment, in this matter, had exhibited anything but fair dealing,
and had it not been for the honest and manly expres-
sion of feeling, the hallucination produced by this
tortuous policy, would have continued in those
who had put faith in the minutes of council.
In a country like theirs, full of religious opinions and dogmas,
it was impossible to create one system which could be taught
under one roof, and, therefore, they would require either to
have a multitudinous number of schools, or, throwing away
religious dogmas, permit the teachers a each sect to educate
the children who
panding qualities of a had great were the offspring of parents holding parti-
cular opinions.
was of an India-rubber text confidence, however, in the ex-
conscience.—(Laughter.) It
--before the year 1848, prob.re, and, ere many }ears expired
clasped to the bosom of the )ably--they would see the Catholics
the Government. The Ne
remter,and included in the vote of
" I will teach every sect in :ble Lord, in reality, at present said,
assure the Noble Lord wets own school-room, but this he could
leyans. They would not.s exceedingly offensive to the Wes-
to propagate what the take the money of the Government
they took it in order t,lioble Lord conceived to be error, but
Jation in which they , o rescue the people from the deep degra-
,_ wed. e took it as a er
of policy • they
to" itere forplun purposeh the ofyrepressing vice and
removing error, and t
was only by steps like these that the
people could be elevated • it was only by a course like this that
they could, in part
dispel the darkness which had gathered
round them, and s
knowledge would nly when the Government increased in
:he period arrive when all the people of the
country would be f
;ducated and enlightened. Thus they would
advance day by de.,
in knowledge, in wisdom, and in Christian
charity.