The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-03 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, MARCH 3, 1847:

IlieedY remedy for the . . —..
soe._ ,
itohrenpieol he
ha afforded. On On a second occa ion when the Member behind him. It was going upon a most dangerous principle.
F. Melee) brought the same subject before -He would not yield to that Right Hon. Baronet in the slightest
same
tette, the Right Honour .ble Baronet repeated the degree in his support of ihe principles of toleration, and in his
of sites 'Sung. He must s• v, that th continued refusal admiration of the great body of the Free Church, yet he could
"Y Proprietors war most impelitie, and ottPosed to the not support the present motion, because he honestly believed
lin.t,intereststhat
tand welfare of the eountry.--; Hear, hear. ) He he- ;it would tend to retard instead of advance the cause they were
ttleuri,alt; t time and reconsideration had hed its effect, and that so anxious to promote. The question was in course of settle-
thouee. -es were not now of so frequent occurrence as formerly, ' ment ; it would, in due course a things, be arranged by the
teat though he regretted to find that la
few still existed. He saw people of Scotland themselves, and for the House to
of re.o l! were eves still in the Free Church—though all hope step in and interfere would be to revive the evil. It was ad-
union rtes now given up—where the inhabitants of ex- : misted that since last year the cases of refusal of sites had
seuurdei restricts were totally debarred from worshipping God greatly reduced, and that this year there were hot thirty. This
he 11,,,n,g to Their consciences, Under these circumstances, showed that the cause of the complaest was being gradually
reeled s Friend had come forward to ask, not for a legislative done away with, in obedience to the expressed feeling of the
te ir Yeor the grievances complained of, but for a Committee I House, and the sense of the Scotch people. To appoint a
Ewe into them It was alleeed that strong reasons i Committee, therefore, would be of no use, but to extorts again 1
ewes _ in,,,enany cases for refusing the sites. If that were so, I the had furthest that was dying a.vay. With regard to the '
eerie
ue..,ldepisnate cause of ing-a.ry, and would very properly I Duke of Buceleuch it was well knosse that he had only refused
lieweeer tr its censideret nee Tete, were some proprietors, , because parties, mieislets eiel their frien a from a distance,
hesome tas soon as they became aware that a re-union had : came on his e,tates and excited his own tenantry against him.
been r IPP"ssib'e, had sr-ranted the sites, which till then ha: IHe (Mr. S. Wortley) del nit. say that the Noble Duke acted
w.osl,itifet,used. To ascertain who those proprietors were l right in refusing sites, still Le mentioned this in his
Thee Le the result attained by the laheuts of the Committee. I vindication. As a proef that the state of things was
would h'„" whe labeured unde-r the imputation of refusing sites steadily ion.roving, he would refer to the tact that
flaeoess've an opportunity of
arcsowing the motives weich in- white thousands of petitions were poured in last year
„,":._ them in such ourse. He, therefore, for into Parliament on the subject not one was presented during
hseresee: ready to assent to the inquiry. He did not, the pre ent.—( Hear, hear. ) On these grounds, therefore, he
to a . Wish to he understoeod as pledging himself did not think any good would come front the Committee. Ile
There legi'lative course in consequence of that assent. would therefore oppese its ap .ointment.
cessationere parties who were unwill ng to believe that the Lord J. RUSSELL, in rising to support the motion, must
eilliee 1., would be permanent, and therefore they were un- not be understood as speaking on the behalf of the parties to
se, 4ausecietrant sites ; but that expectation must have leng whom it had reference. oven had more strongly rests, ed
sled He a''."'ay, and for the future better things were to be the cla.ms of the Free Church py before the unfortunate sece.F-
qqp,tion e del not wish, on this occasion, to enter into the 51 in than himself, as he could see no good that would arise from It.
thour,ht as to whether the cessation was right or not, but he But the seeesseen had taken place. A great number of the
ehle, carried with
would admit that it was a remarkable event, people of Scotland had left the Established Church, and their
tbe rolu"rled with it the sympathies, if not the convictions, of ministers had given up their houses and their means of liveli
ttriellarje, He wished for one moment to glance at the cir- hood, so that they might be at liberty to express the strong
Pleased dosdunder which this in iuiry was proposed. It had religious feelings which they en' ertained, freely and unmolested.
le tie to visit a part of Scotland with severe destitution, That secession having taken place, he was now no less persua-
eileare,_ '5 state of things the members of the Free Church, dad that everythiog should he done to enable them
repo:ley, all sectarian feeling, had joined with all parties in to preach and to practice the doctrine which they
It ea 7 common fund for removlng the prevailing distress. believed that it was their right Hear, hear.,..)
Parties it,i_nw, for the first time since the cessation, that both The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Dorchester (Sir
thrown
_ed come teeether in harmony and union. They had Janies Graham), put the case in a smooth and round form,
teerosthas,ide all ill-feelieg, and, united, they had taken upon from which they might conclude that all further inquiry into
rialfecl, " the good wilt of feeding the hungry clothirg the the subject was unnecessary. He said that the facts were un-
them hra,nd arresting the progress of the destitution.-- Let disputed—that a Committee was not required, but no sooner
Welk he Pe, then, that before the year closed, all differences had the Bight Hon. Baronet concluded than up got the Noble
nes, . c forgotten, and both parties would again unite them- Lord the Member for Lynn, and said that regarding the
Sir in Pod fellowship and religion, etr In facts, they were not to be taken for granted. He disputed
discossiu H. INGLIS was unwilling to enter into a general their correctness, and stated that the reason why sites had
klest en of the subject, but, before hs proceeded further, he in many instances been refused was, because the Free
and be allowed to exress his sense of the feeling Church parties bad acted in such an unbearable and oppressive
had
lelloderatemanner that to grant them was impossible.—(Hear, hear.)
manner pin which his Hon. Friend
Let ee "'light forward this motion. (Hear, hear.) Now, this was to be ascertained by inquiry. As the facts
eetopenenidust say that no object which he had ever felt himself were disputed, and as these reasons for a refusal of sites were
ja a re, to oppose was ever brought forward and advocated given, a Committee of Inquiry to ascertain the truth was re-
ditterent utter noire calculated to gain it friends. This was very quired. They would then learn the true reason why the
Seeretare'reet the le °position made last year by his friend the grant of sites was refused. Here it was confessed there
.was
nianoer „r at ‘i,ar (Mr. Fez Maule). He spoke not of the a considerable grievance. In one place patties were driven
direct
an he referee,' to the object. There they proceeded to to the moor and the moss, under the pelting of the storm, and
Ingetry." lea; here they only proposed a Committee of drenched by rain, in order to listen to religious worshi in such
t'llie feeliuet he did think that some regard ought to be paid a way as they desired. Like the Covenanters of ofd, when
an essentin" and principles of those who supposed that it was persecution was the established law,
.they were deprived of
.all
°I the ,eal part of their dui to forward the pri tciples shelter in their endeavours to worship according to the die-
Fr with hi
Church of yScotland. He could not tares of deer consciences. In other places they had to go out
in boats to meet the ministers whose religious doctrines they
tiP some '' nis Honourable Friend who seemed to hold
eutants: whose names he had mentioned as bigots and parse-
knew
re iei nt. 'tn.adhered to. All this had been justified, on the ground of the
rights of property. Now a legislative rrn. eels, was talked o ,
especially of them le ( Sir R H. In; lash)
and while on the one hand he was unvyitling to consent toh a
tu anytteirnatelY. and knew his lion. Friend was quite unequal
g°rsioe' unworthy of—he would not say a roan, but ot a legis,atiye remedy on a subject of such difficulty, on the other
see u or inhand, it it were proved that the bets alleged were true—that
a Chrihsitsiafinecaounte He felt himself bound to
flette Ps, and defend Friend Sir James Riddle, who he the inquiry showed that the refusal of sites die of arise from
forwerdlt;) incapable of it, and would be the first to assist in the improper proceedings of the parties themselves, butl w.ere,
simply refusals on the ground of being. a different
.1... e religious
total of theg any great benevolent object. In reply to the state-
sect, and if the pastors still were obliged to worship with-
la..
that the Proposer, he mi ht in the first lace, remind him
d I,s4PonPulation was overstgated ; there Werepbut 3 000 ople• out the shelter of a roof or dwelling, he would not be India-
tcheatitobey," hoof
wtheevrnev,bealno,nigi ing to the Free Church ' Hepassed posed to a legislative retriedy.---( hear, hear.) It was, there-
fore, a case for inquiry, as it would not be for the House at
he saw hy the smile .of the Hon.
'Meld arnan that he did not consider that any answer. But he once to interfere. He admitted that if the Free Church was
year,
wshk the entitled to sites, that Co was the Roman Catholic, the Society
Hon. Member, as he had asked him the former
the otheretil2rr he was prepared to give the same privileges to of. Friends, or any other religious body.—(Hear, hear.) The
-tenet, issenters? He recollected that last year the Hon. principle he admitted was universal. But though that was
didtil eetinuatnafiNle F Maule), when. he put the question to him,. the, . case, it did not convince him that a legislative re-
ake
e,, e I thsaete,nl pre area
to
reedy was not advisable.----( Hear, hear.) There was no-
ll"efure thoughtsecede to the proposition. He
use to
.t, that his Hon. Friend ought not to move the thing more sacred than the right of every man to wore
the principle of which he was not prepared to ship according to the dictates of his conscience ; and though
Ile th rninen to all—Roman Catholic as well as Protestant. some gentlemen of the highest character and most benevolent
to grnaught that the rem fining landowners who had refused disposition had refused sites, it only o what extremes
I,..t4enhernist sites had done SO by the conduct of the men of the best feelings would go on the question of religion.
'en e ,of the free church of Scotland, lie had —( Hear, hear. ) They had an instance in the Hon. Member
Places 'redibly informed that at Kimoss, arid some other for the University of Oxford himself, than whom none could
rote; the Free Church had built their their establish- possess a more kind or benevolent disposition, but on
.this
the eh'urn,ot only near to, but in actual juxtaposition with, question he has shown how little he can teel for the sufferings
eed the !n es of the establishment, insomuch that the same bells of others.—( Heat, hear. ) He thinks the people
hof. Scotland
tion to ea.arne clock answered for both buildings. The real clues- should support the churches that were open for t. eir accom-
tneet, efePute was, whether he, as a member of the establish- modetion, and has no regard for their feelings or opinions when
for th snnuld be compelled to erect building' upon his estates they differ from him. But boss wuu.d chat -non. Member like, if
hewaeillu_rpos.e of. propagating a system of worship to which he were in a town where there was no place of worship but a
Nse before
opposed. He hoped the House would Rom an Catholic
that
td
thtoetaettwenasd
plentythere foofrttehnenrie.
tion. ' they gave their assent to the proposition of the was no other place for him,and
the ,_..Member for the appointment of a Select Committee on —(Cheers and laughter.) This showed, hew little persons
d act justly in religious
esLi earlejtect. He did not think that the Duke of Buecleugh of the kindest notions e
places timed by any unworthy motives in refusing sites for disputes,—( Hear, hear.) .
IThoouunlgtho
admit
might he considered a
Xere.e'lat Public worship. He thought the Hon. Member for dangerous principle in. legislation
ri dmitgsuch a remedy as he
violation of the rights of
e.aseettr ock had introduced the question in the manner that referred to, and that it would
ties measure
most unobjectionable, still he did not think that a legisla- property, still he would be prepared to support it if he saw it
uteesure would mend the matter.
, Sir JAMES GRAHAM wished to say a equally violated in questions of heath.
required. With respect to the rights of prop.erty. was not
the rights of property
few words in the
rresent
le. stage of the discussion. It having been his painful 0
r streetsremoving
v ionrgsaquar
housees?
bads to address the House more than once before. He
but •
, little to add, and nothing to retract. He was
if they thought such a step was necessary. On the same
ee'efieh regretted that sites had been refused to the think, in the granting of sites, that inter-
', tuber. of the Free Church, and that some individual fPerriennrcilelemhigehtditble required —(Hear, hear.) In the course
Preen •
p e ors, from a sense of duty, had m d e sucha a
Oxfordretusal refusal, h
~,idt of f the present debate he had been glad to hear hut one opinion
Was, after all, as the Member of the University
tatueted, with many of these proprietors. a case of conscience ; whatever decision the House might
come to, those who had
the differed with the Hon. Member in thinking that the hitherto made such refusals would take notice of this general
Present motion was better than the one proposed last year by expression of opinion, and c ange their course of proceed-
the Hon. Member for Perth. He did nut consider that the ing in relation to the worshippers of the Free Church.
li.i'stion was one for a Committee. It was admitted that err- Mr. SCOTT was prepared to give his vote against this
-;in ss .
r__ore. tee great proprietors of Scoiland had refused sites to the Committee of Inquiry. if he were to consult the wishes of
oretteehurch. No one attempted to deny it. The Hon. Member one of the Noble parties who were so (ten alluded to, he be-
ie
_Ndroarnock's statement of lac's. which had been presented lieved that he would court inquiry, and prove beyond doubt.
tei,:realm and dispassionate manner, presented nothing new, that he had good and sufficient reasons for withholding these
that had been only two additional cases stated ; the one was sites. Similar, he believed, would be the sentiments of Lord
that t'd Lord Macdonald, of Skye, and he was even told that Macdonald. When he remembered the late commotions in
cue
wow, had been mentioned last year. These refusals the Chureh of Scotland, and the fact that the vast number of
diminish as the weight of public opinion would come to
bear q sites which had been in the first instance refused had dwindled
fee ienP-the subject. He understood that they were already down to about thirty, he could not but see with pain this re-
it h_: number. What was the object of the measure? Why opening of the question, and he hoped that within a few years
sett.' 1 been frankly stated by the seconder of the motion that if the) were to allow the public opinion to unfold itself, the
1,-,ll°s LI r ewas. the object. Now such wa,, not a proper object. country would be at peace—(Loud cries of "Divide.")
title%
nwee discussing the subject at a moment when every Colonel MURE thought they were bound to make inquiry,
feeling in their nature should be called forth ; they and he would support the motion of the Hon. Member, at the
were in the midst cf a great national calamity, of such an extent same time not pledging himself to support °any after motion
44,1 of such an awed character, that it humbled the pride of which might be founded upon it.—(Cerdinued cries of
%tan. He did agree in the sentiments of Mr. Jones Loyd, so "Divide.")
rue'oorently expressed, and which they had all read in the The gallery was then cleared for the division, when there
a rung paper, that the present was an occasion when the appeared—
grye, opposition of party ought to be silenced. and all the For the motion for inquiry
eern •Against it . .... .. ... . 6l
sentiment bitterness of religious animosity might to be assuaged in the
po,u of Christian charity. Now, he would ask, was ex- Majority
eeesre a legitimate object? •r was it desirable that the con- POOR REMOVAL BILL.
We„' of
certain individuals should be Inquired into? If there Mr. BANKES then proceeded to call the attention of the
,outnno other grounds, he would be Prepared to resist the Howe to the report of the Select Committee on the Settlement
ter I. • Was it just, or was it advisable, that they should anePonr Removal, and also to the copy of the case submitted in
belere into what were the religions opinions of the the Poor Law Commissioners to the Law Officers of the
eouep of Buecleuch en of the Earl of Aberdeen ? He Crown, for their opinion with reference to the construction. of
l'l's ask,
was it even tolerable that such an inquiry should a clause in the Poor Removal Act. It had been his (Mr.
teet abase? lle lamented these refusals. He did not think Bankes') endeavour to induce the committee to examine
lared,eY would continue. The Secretary of State had de.
the
the workir g of the measure as it affected thc comforts of
tor 4 (,ohat they had diminished. and he therefore saw no room the poor, but after some discussion, a majority of the Committee
broo4't Mmittee of Inquiry. He considered that the measure determined to postpone that consideration. If the Committee
seta tee in by the Member for Perh was M'.st objectionable, did not, before Eastsr, make greater progress than they had
ehuorou ou ^ rse of legislation on that subject would be most yet done, he should feel it his duty to bring in a measure
did riot !' The question was, however, one of degree, and he modifying in a very great degree, or perhaps, repealing alto-
were te doubt the competency of the Legislature, but if they gether, the Act of last session. It had been promised by the
lolsrreecetslate they should do it on the principle of general Noble Lord and son e others of the :Members of the Govern-
ell sovietse it must not he confined to Scotland, but extend to ment, that this subject would be laid before the House this
'toted J. The principle of toleration was universal. He session ; bnt looking to the great diversity of opinion in that Com-
4lit etmuLtitrespass upon the attention of the House further! mittee, he did not see any. hope that they would
.have a measure
tee'aed to lose grounds he would obj 'et to the motion, and i f introduced in sufficient time to warrant them in expecting it
Ler,t
_.a division, he would vote against it. to pass into a law that session. There was a feeling very
, the lei e", • RENTINCK concurred in all that had fallen from popular now-a-days to do away with settlements altogether, and
as he gs", ' Hon. Baronet who had just sat down. more especially to provide fc r the poor by a national rate. 'that feeling
Right fionu,ild not agree wi•li the sentiment expressed by the heel greatly progressed in consequence of the deft.
114 Seottami Member opposite, that if the proprietors of land ciencies of the Bill passed last Parliament.—( Hear.)
feting
the refs-ed to rant sites, he was prepared to take them He believed that the abolition of settlements would be most
*he hada, ley legislative enactments. Every Hon. Member prejudicial to the poor, alit that it would not (as had been
the ii,.... (..Illre..sed, the Howe had praised the moderation of absurdly argued) give a stimulus to industrial exertion. To
leittee.“
,l-lleenber who moved the appointment of this Cern- support his statement he must allude to the evidence of Mr.
rife maeortistetadmitted that there was the swirlier moth) in GulsAssistant Poor-law Cemmissioner, but he must
Zeeeieny'rwthh,ut there was also something of the fortiter in. re, first state that the reason he had not referred to it before was,
eitniverie) when speaking of the Duke of BuccleUch ; he (Mr. because the Committee which sat upon this subject decided
ne ten. acknowledged the virtues of the Noble Duke, but upon reporting before they heard, arid published the evidence.
All th hinted that he was willing to indulee in a little persecution. Now, Mr. Gulson, in his evidence, said the Act was unjust
Per °se. who were acquainted with his Grace, were aware that and defective, had totally failed in its operation, and must
_ aecution w
A raor4 as altogether foreign to his character, and that sooner or later be altered. This he thought was enough to
Lvrtidtertt
thgeneroaus person did not exist. It was prove his case. He could conceive no better testimony in his
rfeat l degree of provocation had eivour than this. It wa3 perfectly true that
.it counterbalanced
thet c ,re :ni‘a,ineYotofatnhdesien
irge.usa s. He believed nothing could be the evidence of the Po g-law Commissioners themselves,
topresehets
of te,.orous than the denunciations flung by but he thought the preference ought to be given to Mr. Gul-
_ greor i the Free Church upon those who had refused son's evidence, because he had ample opportunities of witness.-
reeare to ,17t He was not prepared togo into an inquiry with ing its injurious effects upon the poor, whereas the Poor-law
I'io b_ , 'ne conduct of his Grace and other noble individuals Commis i had no such opportunities. Mr. Guleon
3 o.n.ers
iselied.a been alluded to. If the landowners were to be corn- s oke ractically, but the Poor-law Commissioners gave their
sites to grant sites fur the Free Church, on what ground were evidence theoretically. No doubt the intention of the Act
es to be refused to the Homan Catholics? Wherever the was good but in carrying out its details it was found to be
tube
li,p_e burs of the Free Church had been refused sites, it was unjust and inoperative. Perhaps it did not weigh so oppres-
sively upon the peer as the rate-payer, but even admitting
'1.‘1,4" they wished to build them in offensive stations.
that proposition, the law ought to be altered in that respect or
lir. F. MAULE No no
~._ee.ord G. BENTI—NCK—He believed, however, that such discontinued altogether.
.He regretted much that Govern-
-11"' the case. they wishing to build their churches beside, or ment had allowed the sssion.so far to advance without stating
b1,751* to, the churches of the Establishment. 'l'o conclude, he what they intended to do with the poor-law. He did not
egged to say that he would support the Right Hon. Baronet , xpeet that they would have disclosed its details Ly
fe his objection to the motion. this time, but certa'nly
he had expected that its
have
Mr. F. M AULE, after the speech of the Noble Lord and general principles wouldbeen communicated to the
that of the Bight Hon. Gentleman who preceded him, he House. Had there beepnnaonty-lapwar,tth'ees
winasthe
quite Hocuesret responsiblecertain so
many
and he was, therefore, the
thought that without going into any argument, he could ET the operation of the
establishNte_ a fair claim to an inquiry into the subject. The defects could not have crept into it,
..',',.. Lord had brought forward assertion after assertion, more anxious to learn what improvements wore to be intro_
"' hhe (Mr. Fox Meule) would be able to rove before the duced into it. The law had been decided by the law officers of
Committeee were wholly without foundation, and the facts of the Crown, as well as other eminent legal authorities, to be
prese:wthai been misrepresented to the Noble Lord. If the defective, and he thought the House was entitled to have the
trues of Were a question for a Committee of Inquiry into the Mo- or inion of these legal gentlemen. But he did not ask for much,
House
ttnnividitals, he would be one of the last to ask the all that he asked for was the case upon which the opinion was
'Ought foo grant the Committee moved for. The Committee elven. Mr. Lewis, in the Committee, stated that six questions
eue
e.,
.er was only ene to inqure int" a national grievance, and were submitted to the law officers of the Crown upon which to
rcor:ntli affected an integral part of the nation, and affected found their opinion upon the legality of this law, and it was for
Kingdo than one half of the population of that part of the noted the production of these six questions that he now made this
on , fats The matters in issue had been before the House motion. They were called for in the Committee, but it was
readefeemer occasions, and each time the statements stated that only the House of Commons had the power to ask
ward in' the Honourable, member who brought them for- for their production, and it was under these circumstances that
tree
arufull
tile, , had been disputed, and he must say that he he brought forward the present motion. At present there was
havegnt the time was now come when the House was bound to a strong feeling abroad, that the law ought to be
were explanation of the matters complained of. If it abrogated altogether, but he warned the Govern-
been _see. that unjustifiable language had upon some occasions ment that their best course was to amend its
rriadel d, unworthy of Christian ministers, let the facts be defective provisions, and the strong feeling would subside.
rod
ol`r: Peblic as the refusal of sites had been made. He In an amended form, and, wtth the aid of a new Poor-law
,'our ee w.l._sh t° Protect or to expose either of the parties. Commission. the Act might prove successful, but, without
bevel_casesbeen brought forward of individuals that amendment, it must still remain unjust and inoperative.
wlrii gwiteiliursed t. grant sites, but they w .re only brought for- Mr. C. BULLER said it was a rule in the legal profession,
Proprietor., reference to districts in which there were no other which had always been respected and observed, both by the
uf ,he -, and thus enhancing the difficultie3 of the members House and the Government, that neither the case nor the opi-
been tb Free Church. He world tell the Noble Lord what had nions of counsel should be produced. The question which had
in the e.
conduct of the ministers of the Free Church been referred to the Committee alluded to, by the lion Gen-
soled, island of Sloe, to whom sites had been re- tleman opposite, was a most difficult one. Opinions upon the
done thaend what hail been its results famine had law of settlement were so very diversified, tha. it W 11.3 quite
person re—starvation had done its worst, and many poor impossible for the Committee to have come to any decision
at Onesti had been driven to desperation. Threats were upon the subject, without first considering its general
last,__rime e held out that the poor would apply to their own bearings, and without considering what were the
et„.uu"tsaine the flocks of sheep which were grazing on the particular circumstances of each mode of settlement.
!hieh th sid"' From the pulpits, and in the gravel pits in The question which he thought to he decided by the t em-
need Py were f,d to assernele for Divine worship, the i mittee was, whether there was anything connected with the
needs
of of obedience was successfully inculcated upon the I framing of the law, which rendered the working of that
the t)‘„. the people, and rot a single instance had occurred of I measure, in a manner contrary to the opinions of those who
Poor l!eotiOn of property. Was it to be borne that these I brought in tha measure. The opinion of the majority of the
tots{ curettel'i be denied the iivilege of a roof to protect , Committe was, that the intereretation of the Committee
nor,
o ini,l,mency of the weather during teeir celehra- ; should bet' different to the interpsetation put upon it by the
that ,e' Divine worship ?—( Hear, hear. ) He believed 1 framers of the measure. A particular interpretation had been
these " the House refused the latter, they would drive i put upon the Act, in consequence of which, one half of the
of dritePoor men to despair and also risk ipaupers of the country had obtained an irremovable
run the 1
tie tree them from the h-abit, of attending settlement; and he, for one, would not consent to
public worship. '
__lnost earnestly trusted
Cunnittce
_.that the House would grant the alter the measure, so as to meet the supposed in.
ruth of Inquiry. This was all they of the framers of that measure. It would be a
fining ught be 1 'd• wanted, so that the tentions . .
the co l '
ai are and toe toey might ascertain whether great hardship to the poor of the country if such a course were
h
and r, 1-. IV complaints of the Free Church were founded in adopted. The excuse of the Committee for refusing the evi-
et, mitred redress.—( Hear, hear.) 1 dence of run Gulston upon the working of toe present law war,
ti ' STU A ii. vt; ••, ~ ,
etna,
w_ ‘ T OR 1 Le,e. eiouelit tile Right Hon Gee.- that 1 0 Hu", '1,T,...1-;er fer Daiectshire Iced prupobed 'ha'
eeretatiee," first aduressed tile House or tei dof the " - i emsk., evidence too late; the evidence had been closed when he offered
"'I (Sir George Grey)should have • °- i
remained silent on it, and the committee rere then engaged in reporting upon

the evidence they had heard. The House must look upon the
question as a whole ; it was one which affected, to an immense
extent, the condition of the people of this country.
Mr. MILES said that there was a very strong opinion in
the minds of the Committee that the operation of the Poor
Removal Bill ought to have been most carefully looked into.
The real question, he thought, for the House to consider
was whether the country was to he taken in by a gross
The country thought it was a fraud, and it was reprobated
throughout all portions of the country as such. The Hon.
Member then alluded, at considerable length, to the statements
of a gentlenrn residing in the Frome union—a union con.
taining twenty-nine parishes—showing the injurious operaticn
of the existitg law in that union.
Sir G. GREY thought that the motion of the Hon.
Member was a most unusual one, and he hoped that the 11,.n.
Member would not press it. He did not see what advantage
could possibly be derived from publishing to the world the six
doubts referred to by the Hon. Member, and which had been
submitted to the opinion of the law officers of the Crown.
The Hon. Gentleman should submit a definite motion on the
subject, and until he did so he should consider him.,elf entife,l
to abstain from entering into the general question.
Mr. FINCH thought that the Hon. Member for 13,rset-
shire should not press his motion at present. lie vial of opi-
nion, however, that the Removal Act of last session was one
which produced considerable evil, and was passed to favour the
landed at the eirense of the manufacturing interest ; but as
the law of settlement was at present under the consideration of
a Committee, he thought the Hon. Member should wait for
their report. If they did not recommend its repeal, then hr
would support the Hon. Member if he made a motion to that

real facts of the case had been shown by
the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman in his representation of the expense of the South-
Eastern Railway. He was not content with increasing it one-third,
or one-half. or even double, for while the real expenditure had
only becn364,4051. it had been represented to be 3,8.57,000/.
He stated that the expenditure on the Midland railways was
7,235,0001., when, in truth, the whole expenditure at that time
had only been 1,257,800/. But he (Lord G. Bentinck) was
quite willing to give the Right 1-lon. Gentleman credit for a
total ignorance on this sutject. It would seem that when he
took the Midland Counties Railway as an illustration, he ima-
gined that he was dealing with the Amalgamated Midland
railways of a later period ; and therefore he included the ex-
penditure of the North Midland and Birmingham lines. If that
were so, then the entire expenditure from the first commence-
ment amounted to 4,724,753'., so that the truth was, that on
these seven railways from the first commencement, from th_i
year 18.36, when their Acts were first obtained, the expendi-
ture of the whole cf them had been hut 20,437,115/. When
the Right Hon. Gentleman had sent forth a statement to the
country that the expense in the two years of the deficiency was
37,729,0001. ; so that they had a Chancellor of the Exchequer
who, on the seven railway lines, was wrong to an amount of
17,291,0001.—( Hear, hear.) Now, if that was not a marvel-
lous statement for a gentleman to make, who once held
the post of Chancellor of the Exchequer, he (Lord G. Ben-
tinck) did not know what constituted a marvellous statement.
But that was not the whole case. The argument of the Right
Honourable Gentleman was an answer to a speech
which was made three weeks before. Though
Honourable Gentleman had come down to the House
calmly and deliberately, armed with the authority of the rail-
way Committee report, of which he was himself a Member ;
he made this statement of the expenditure in the yea s of
deficiency. Now, as the only years in which a great de-
ficiency was found in the revenue were the years 1839 and
1540, the impression which was intended to go forth to the
country was that this sum of 37,729,000/. was the expenditure
of the years 1839 and 1840. Whereas he (Lord G. Bentinck)
found that on these railways in those two years the entire sum
expended was but 9,718,9971., showing an average expenditure
in each of the two years of 4,859,000/. ; so that taking this
view of the question the Right Honourable Gentleman was
not wrong merely in the matter of seventeen but of twenty-
eight millions—( Hear)—and when they reflected that this
statement was come to after much deliberation ; with all the
pomp and circumstance which attended an Ex Chancellor of
the Exchequer, with the report of the Committee, of which
he had been a member, in his hand; and when they saw that
that statement was exhibited in the face cf that party, with
the figures quoted in perpendicular columns; when they saw
all this, he trusted the House would not think that he had
occupied its time unnecessarily, in showing how little reliance
was to be placed on the statistics and statements of the Right
Hon. Gentleman. But when it went to the country and to
Ireland, that it was on account of the pressure from the
Right Honourable Gentleman that her Majesty's Government,
which appeared to be wavering whether or not they would
accept the measure which ho bad introduced to the House,
when it was solely from the pressure of the Right Hon. Gen-
leman that the First Lord of the Treasury was fixed to the de-
claration that he would resist the second reading of the Bill
when it came to that House ; it would be stamped on the public
mind of the country that her Majesty's Ministers had allowed
,hevneelves to be led by such blinded guides as the Right Hon.
the late Chancellor of the Exchequer. He (Lord G. Bentinck)
had stated that the years 1839 and 1840 were the two past
years in which there was any great deficiency in the revenue,
l'rue there was a deficiency of 658,0001. in 1837, and of
345,000/. in 1838 ; but these deficiencies had arisen from the re-
duction of 930,000/. of taxes, and did not arise from any
.Tostration of the resources of the country ; but in the year
1841 there was a deficiency of 2,100,000/., and in the year
1842 of 3,979,000/. Was there, in these twe years, a great
expenditure of money on railways? Far from it. He found,
that in the course of these two years, there had been ex-
pended—
On the London and Birmingham ........ £255,625
On the Great Western
On the London and Brighton
On the Grand Junction
On the South-Western
On the South-Eastern ...
On the North Midland, the Midland Counties,
and Birmingham and Derby, together

effect.
Mr. RICE thought the Hon. Member for Dorsetshire
should persevere in his motion for a repeal of the Act of last
session. He knew that in his own district it would operate
most injuriously, for on the 25th March next, notices would be
served on many cottagers in his neighbourhood, who would he
obliged to leave their holdings on Michaelmas next. The
Hon. Member stated several instances where the operation of
the Act was most harsh. He hoped, therefore, the Hon.
Member would persevere with his motion after Easter, and he
might rest assured he would be well supported by petitions.
Mr. E. WODEHO USE hoped the Hon. Member for Dor-
setshire would persevere in his efforts, and expressed his obli-
gations to him for having taken the question up. The late
Act had operated most injuriously in his part of the country.
Mr. VERNON SMITH was glad that this discussion had
taken place, otherwise the report of the Committee might have
had the effect of inducing a feeling throughout the country
that the Act of last session was to be permanent. He hoped,
however the Hon. Member would not postpone his measure
till after Easter ; for he contended, that the repeal of the
Poor Removal Act of last session was preliminary to coming
to any arrangement with regard to the law of settlement. The
sooner, therefore, he brought forward the measure the better
would it be for the country.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that his respect for the time
of the House prevented him from referring to the evidence
that had been adduced, hut which was not before the 11011543,
and for the same reason he did not intend to go into the
question of the Removal Act of last session, which was DOI
under their consideration. The Hon. Member for Dorset-
shire gave notice of his intention for an alteration, er the
repeal of the Act of last session, after or before
Easter. He by no means denied that the interpretation of the
law officers of the Crown had given a more extensive operation
to the Act, than those who had brought it forward, or the House
which passed it, intended. But he could not concur in
the censures which had been passed on that extension, for the
balance of advantages was greatly and decidedly in favour of
the poor of the country. That was not the question now, but
he considered that he should be wanting in his duty if he die'
not detail some of the advantages to which he referred. 'I hen.
was one class, however, against whom it operated unfavourably. ,
He believed the Act of last tension had conferred inestimable
advantages on large classes of the poor of this country. First
of ail, he would call attention to that great provision
in the Act, which stated that a pauper shoule
net be removed after a residence of a certain
number of years. The next had reference to those who re-
sided in a place for some time, hut who had not established a
right of settlement by a residence of five years. He was satis-
fied that if this Act was rightly usderstood with respect to the
recipients of relief, it would be found that it was decidedly
favourable to the poor, and that it was therefore a humane are
~ Making a total of X8,009,687
just enactment. With regard to the effect of the Act upon th
4,000,000/. on each of these years.
and he should continue to entertain it, notwith
expressed, ,
ratepayers, he had never altered the opinion lie had alreak Or about an average of
Ile must say that when the exaggerations of the Right Hon
,Gentleman went to the extraordinary length of 17,000,000/.
standing the offence he had thereby given to many of hi•
•ii the best face that could be put on the matter, or of
friends, that the law of settlement did not impose too heart
25,0'00,000/., if the argument of the Right Hon. Gentleman
burdens on the ratepayers. As he was a member of the Corn'
mince now sitting on the subject, heron. not well use the were taken in its fullest extent, he was justified in saying that
evidence which had been adduced befor it. If this were no it could he nothing but, a trick of the trade, or if not so it was
so he might have availed himself of the evidence ,chat he (Lord G. Bentinck) had already designated as mar
;Thous a statement as was perhaps ever heard within the walls
of Mr. Gulsen, a gentleman of considerable experience,
of that House, and most• ma reddens,
Lord
coming from a Chan-
who was called by the Member for Dorsetshire before the Com-
mittee, to show that they ought not to alter the present law o
for a return showing the amount of money expended in the
settlement. As the whole of the evidence would be in the
hands of Hon. Members in the course of a few days, be en- elder of the Exchequer. The Noble concluded by moving
locomotive engines, carriages, tools, Stes.,) of all railways in
treated them not to give their attention to garbled extracts fetal cost of construction and of working stock (including
Great Britain and Ireland in each triennial period previous to
but to peruse the whole of it. He was a man of the highes
authority and well conversant with the operation of the law. the first day of January respectively in the years 1841, 1844,
not only in the mnufacturing districts of
mthis city, hut in ma, and 1847 ;as also a return, showing the sums of money actually
a
parts of Ireland, in sect, he possessed ore practical know 7 expended by the following railway companies previous to
examined one of the guardians of the Suffolk and Cembridi
ledge on the subject than any other man. They had that dal (84 1 :—London and Birmingham, Grand Junction, Great
Union anti the chairman of a court of guardians in the nori; land, likewise the aggregate sum expended by the above-mcn-
of England, a learned gentleman of great experience, whos, .ioned railway companies in each year previous to 1841.
Western, Brighton, South Western, South Eastern and Mid-
evidence would be found most material. In fact, he was jot
cause
GOULBURN regretted that he had been the innocent
ti
in saying that the whole of the evidence "dt'eed before cause of inflictin on the House a somewhat lengthy speech in
the Committee would tend to show, that the Act of last sessiot =uPPort of certain returns to which there could have been no
ought to be maintained in all its integrity, but that some poi- Possible objection. But he thought he could satisfy the
tion of the existing poor-law, and even of the law of settle- Reuse that it was not to him, nor to any statement of his, that
merit, admitted of correction.
hey were to impute this inconvenience. If on the occasion
Mr. 0. STANLEY considered that in making the alters-
when he had delivered the speech or expressed the sentiments
tions referred to, they would not overlookthe rate-payers, man) which the Noble Lord had seen fit to attribute to him, the
of whom were in a condition little removed from pauperism. •
Noble Lord had availed himself of the privilege which he then
He trusted that the Committee now sitting for the purpose of enjoyed (the flours being then in Committee), of observing
inquiry into the lave of settlement, would endeavour to devise upon the statement whicts he (Mr. Goulburn) was alleged to
remedies for all the anomalies which existed in the present have made, or if he had asked any explanation of that state-
law, and which had led the Attorney and Solicitor-Generals t, (Tient he (Mr. Goulburn) would have been most ready then to
form a different opinion to the one entertained by many of the ;ire that explanation which he would now be compelled to give
boards of guardians. and thus would be precluded every necessity for further discus-
Mr. E. DENISON considered notwithstanding the sitting sion eLn this subject.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had
of the Committee, that the House was in a fit condition to stated, that they had had a Chancellor of the Exchequer who
proceed then to the discussion of the question of the law of had advanced erroneous statements, and false calculations, and
settlement. No pledge had been given to the Committee that that he was therefore bound to suffer the penalties attaoheed to
the question would not be entertained by the House until the these. He (Mr. Goulburn) might say in return, that-.'l one
Committee had furnished their report. He considered tha' who expected to be Chancellor of the Exchequer, end who
the law had worked well ; but when the ratepayers were dis- misrepresented what fell from other Honourable Gentlemen,
satisfied the recipients could not fail to suffer as the ratepayers tend founded false arguments on those misrepresentations ; he
would believe the poor forced upon them, and it was not un-
likely that they might be used unkindly. Therefore some ,: alr. Goulburn) said that that person was not fit for the
alterations were necessary. The evidence taken before the office to which he might be thought to aspire.—( Hear, hear.)
With thete observations he would proceed to state to the House
Committee had not had that effect upon his mind which the what it was he did say on the occasion to which the Noble
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Dersetshire had stated it Lord had made reference ; he would vindicate the words
had had upon his. he had made use of on that occasion, and the argument
Sir W. JAMES wished to know if the Government intended which he had deduced from them. The Noble Lord said that
the powers placed in the hands of auditors relating to the pay_ proper, because he was referring to a speech
to take steps to remove some inconsistencies with respect to in reeking those statements he was doing that which was ins-
ment of accounts ? He commended the conduct of the Com. weeks before in Parliament. He was afraid the Noble Lord
mittee in not wishing to interfere with the law of lastimputed to him-
practice to which he himself was but too
sea- a
sion until they had proposed the adoption of a better ' measure. prone, namely, that of taking nine days to considerhis reply.
Mr. NEVs'DEGATE bore testimony that he then
to the fitness of Mr. Honourable Members would recollect
Member for Hull (Sir W. James), that the Poer-law Corn
Gilson to give a practical opinion on the House, and
Sir G. GREY stated, in working of the law, spoke to the strict question before the
the on referred particularly to a speech delivered three
reply to the question of
inissionere had taken the matter into their special come.. en bringingg' TfohruetardC
11
Exchequer had,
enues of
deration.advertedhhaisticietlulodrget.ofthe
and had shown
,he years 1842, 184
3, 1844, 1845, and LB]6,
Mr. WAKLEY said, the parties who were so anxious by reference reduction of duty on
get this law repealed were tyrannical boards of guardians, and
tltuseladledttooa number of articles that.na
the coneumption of
gentry who had no wish to pay for the maintenance of the such articles, ChancelloranadPrtohgereive increaseef inFachequer argued
poor. Now he believed the Bill an excellent one, and he wan , ;ram thence that the reductionof the duties oil commercial
d The Noble Lord
sure if they compared the good end the evil of the measure articles was the wiser :
policy to he pursue • .
ng and toad
that the former would be found to predominated to a great ex- said that the Chancellor was wrong in his reasom ,
tent.—( Hear. )It would be useless for him to repeat what sal r was not t • in the finan-
o be attributed to any change 1
had been so well said by the Right lion. Baronet (Sir James Leal policy of the countr but a to be attributed altogt ter to
Graham), but he could confirm from his own experience all he extension of railwaysy., He wsaids, 4. What has free trade to do
that he had stated on the subject. The ratepayer sin the me with it? It is railway enterprise alone that has done this.
to the rev
tropolis did not complain, so far as he could judge, of the opera file Noble Lord said he (Mr. Goulburn) had confined siteb •
t ion of the poor-law. The expense of the rates pressed heavily nervations to the Years 1839.40, and followed that statemup
upon them, but they bore the expense because they be- with the declaration that these were the only two years of great
his own
lieved that it was absolutely necessary. In his parish deficiency. Now, the Noble Lord subsequenilYt in
since the Bill had been in operation the guardians speech, admitted that there was a deficiency in 18-11 of two
had not sent any Irish paupers back to Ireland, nillions, and in 1842 of three millions • but let that pass.e
because they knew that by doing so, they would drive them to rhe Noble Lord said he (Mr. Goulburn attributed thhe d fi-
took
starvation. The Irish pauper obtained relict in this country •
eienciee of the years 1839-40 to the expenditure which took
when he sought it. Was it not mons.rous, that in England, trlace in those years on railways. NOW
Aid hes, would
an Irish pauper was entitled to relief, but that, if he were sent Goolborn) said no such thing. What he " say t at
to Isis own country, under the same Crown and under the same '
tret found correctly recorded in what he n'asd "which
laws, he would be doomed to starvation. The Right Hon. liberty to refer to in that House—in those memoran
if tt would
Baronet in passing the Bill, got in the small end of the wedge. conveyed the debatea in some degree to the Pl"' ears of
end he hoped the people would see that it would be driven home, '
oe found from them that he stated, that during theoy
emu-
awl that all future laws on the subject would be framed on the •leficiency there was raised for railways, in the courose
tof
leave
same principle. So anxious was he to put the matter to the Pletion, no less than 47,700,000/., and in order t
"bich he de-
test, that he gave the Irish paupers a general invitation to come the House in doubt, he stated the quarter from
w ort made to
over here. He wished they would all come over. He wished rived his information. He collected it from a rieyom
Committee on
2,0.'0.000 of the destitute people of Ireland would come over that House in the year 1846, from the Select
however, had
here during the next month--( Hear and laughter)—because it railways.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lordi,
that
this was
would bring the Parliament to its senses with respect to those fixed a charge upon him, that he state:(
1840, but he
laws. Ile was informed that in St. Ann's parish, out of every the sum expended in the years 1839 didand say was, that
shilling paid to the poor, that 118. was paid to Irish paupers, really said no such thing. What he
raised up to that
and that out of 27,000/. expended for the relict the amount he had mentioned was the sutr.l.___i .n
i question.
of the poor in his parish, during the last year, date for the purpose of completing the ra311,../Y
GOUlban) had
20,000/. was expended in the support of Irish paupers. He The Noble Lord had told him that if he (_
d his figures he would
admitted their right to relief, and would not deprive them of looked over the paper whence he obtaine
to be raised. Well,
it, but what he said was, that the poor-laws of the three coitus have seen that the amount included sumst
the
companies had
tries should be assimilated, and that each county should sup- did he not state that of the total amount the an as-
raised 8,250,000.!. No doubt, had he been
port its own poor. attending to subjects of
Mr. HARRIS said that the whole of the question had arisen seeable, who were not in the habit of_atten
more
particuiar and
from the vague manner in which the Act had been this nature, he should, perhaps, have bee h
He should ave taken care to
constructed, leaving it discretionary with the guardians to adopt necise in his observations. .
that the whole were
the guardhis hearers against the impression
the law or not.years. There were
Mr. BROTHERTON said that he believed that the measure had been expended fn one or twow hich was supposed to
would be a humane one if properly carried out; and looking at Iwo ways of addressing that _ H•onlosre,med
art topics,
w...
consist of an educated and well-i f
particular topics, while
it as a whole, he believed that the good more than counterba-
nerelv to deduce results an arguing
which would
lanced the evil, and he would be sorry to see it repealed. her was to go into details and particulars...
Mr. B. ESCOTT said, that with respect to these numbers -
heother
suggest themselves to every man of intelligence. He
of little debates, they only indicated that the whole question, naturally_e
former course, for the obvious reason that he did
like one of finance, was to be hung up for another session of adopteidhth
(I. ake himself more dull and tedious than was
Parliament. The indignation of the townspeople in England nut .w s, t m In the way of implication the Noble
had been very generally excited against the provisions absolutely neeet
sianrtyo' his mouth & statement which he noble
had had p
the law, and he could tell them that the country people also
Theu Noble Lord stated that he (Mr. Goul-
made.
were of opinion that some substantive alteration should take burn) stated that this sum had been expended in the
place in the relief of the poor. They could not enter into the of two years in which there was a large
question of relief without entering into that of settlement, and course •
y n the rerenue.—(Hear.) Ho stated no such
they could not enter into the law of settlement without enter-
thin argument applied to a series of years of deficiency,
ins into the question of rating. The people of England would te-ne. • with 1837 and ending with 1643. So far the state-
beginning
otbe satisfied unless the great mass of property should be do was literally true, and was not capable of con-
brought he ma
to contribute with the land. The proprietors of it was said that he raised this mode of argu-
funded tradiction. But
property should be made to contribute their common impress the House what was not founded on fact,
share with those who mint to upon
contribute their hard earnings. It wasthat there had been a considerable expenditure in
the owners namely, .
of fundedproperty who made the II during the time of
spoor.—( ear,
hear, and laughter.)railway 5
It was they who caused the great Of course he could not decide so accurately as
amount of taxation an
revenue. •
which was levied upon the people •
in order the positionof the 4
to pay and keep them up. Honourable Member in °nom-able
Mr. S. WORTLEy said that • Member for Sunderland how much of 47,000,0001.
nothing would satisfy the
people unless there was an abolition of the law ofsettlement.was exp
have b an inco •
Mr. BANKES said, that after what had
inconsiderable proportion
fallen from the pre- i • the period many of the great lines con •
ceding speaker, he wouldconnecting
agree not to press his mot' because during
north were in the
EXPENSE OF ENGLISH RAILWAYS.ion* the metropolis with the course of construe-
Lord G. BENTINCK, in rising to make tion. Therefore he concluded that a considerable portion of
thet motions of
which he had given notice expressed his regret the outlay must have been occasioned when there was a
that
-
at the Right
Hon. Member should think that he was wanting in chancy in the revenue. There was a return sent to Parliament
him in calling the attention of the House to tilicsourtesy to
in 1839, in which it was stated that the aggregate sums the
But when, on a former occasion, the subject of Irish rail- different railways were empowered to raise, amounted to
ways was under consideration, the late Chancellor of the 57,700,000 ; that was two years after the commencement of
Exchequer had made the extraordinary statement be did as to the deficiency, and it was verydriatueral
oft suppose that a consi-
the expense of English railways, he (Lord G. Bentinck) derable portion of the expen itur that sure fell within
• he had adverted.
thought it necessary he should set himself right on the the period to which But there was
which he
question. The extraordinary statement which the ex-Chan- other evidence to
ha s the Noblecould refer to for
cellor of the Exchequer had made was, that seven of the support, and in which per p Lord could be dis-
country before
principal lines of railway in this the year 1840 Posed to place some degree of confidence. In till
year 1844,
tookplace before
had cost no less a sum than 37,729,0a0!. This had induced when an examination
k) to make an inquiry into the subject, him (Lord G. Bentinc
n railways Mr. Laing was asked what had been the whole
and the following was the result to which he had arrived. of
amount laid out in Cie construction railways
UP to that
Gentleman stated that the London d time, and the reply was 64,000,000/. Now if tits}
The Right Honourable Y deducted
cost no an
from that
ore 1840 had less a rom• sum the cost of railways that west completed
Birmingham Railway before
stern than 8,250,000/. ; would they think previous to 1837, of which they had no distinct a! count, but what
when he told them would arrive at the exact amount expended between 1837
of this surprising
statement,
ofthe returns furnished and 1844, which he was sure would ge fully to
that if they looked in page 475
astif the statement that he had
that House they would find the sum expended was only J. Y . made, namely,
enacted for this company, that co-existent with the deficiency in tot revenue,
5,994,536'. ; and of the ten Bills
1849•—( Hear, hear.) The Grand expenditure in railway there was a large . speculeions. He
but six were passed before •
000/ before 1840, trusted he had now satisfied the Noble Lordthe House
Junction was stated to have cost 4,638, •
that he had committed no error in and
whereas he found there had been expended but 1,921,496/.
in his statessents; and
efore 1840, conclusion, he had only to thank the House
The Great Western was stated to have spent b- for tie attention
he found was only with which they had listened to him, and to refer them for the
8,282,000/.; the expenditure, however,
4 508 160, Railway was re"resenti
L , .. The Brighton e .d tn have real statement he did make to the ordinary chan by •
nelt which
1 information of the debates which took
vas I 166 540 . place in that }louse were
cost 2,867,000!. ; the real expense % t , conveyed to the public.
T'- e have cost before
' S"-'l'• Western was represented to Mr. DISRAELI rose to make
1840, 2,600,000/. ; the sum, however, though somewhat under \ . a few observations to the
House for the purpose of substantiating the .t to
that, was 2,053,3601 But the test departure kern the
, greatest . A mints of his

None Friend the 111 ember for Lynn. It was quite a mistake
to suppose that his Noble Friend was ct all irritated in bring-
ing forward his motion. That, however, was not the point
before the House. It might be very well for the Hon. Member
to talk to the House, and tell them that he knew the difference
between addressing a vulgar and uneducated assembly and one
like that which he was then addressing, an I skip over all the
details of his arguments. The question was were opinions to
go forth to the world upon a subject which at present interested
the public mind to a very great extent, and was public enter-
prise to be affected by mere declamation in that House ? The
Hon. Gentleman had said that a large expenditure in railways
did not necessarily benefit the revenue.
Mr. GOULBURN—No, no.

Mr. DISRAELI—What, then, was the course of argument
pursued by the Hon. Gentleman ? His Noble Friend ( Lord G.
Bentinck) and those who acted with him, had certainly been
endeavouring to impress upon the country the idea that an ex-
penditure of money in tha construction of railways was a
benefit to the country; if the Hon. Gentleman was not at-
tempting to make out the converse of that proposition, a great
portion of the time occupied in the debate could have been
spared, and he might, at least, have been induced to
occupy neutral ground. He certainly understood the
Honourable Member to say, that it was a mistake
to suppose that a great expenditure in railway enterprise
had a necessary tendency to increase the revenue of
the country, because they had had a great expenditure of money
upon railways, and that, too, in a year of greet deficiency. if
that was not his argument, what was it ? His argument cer-
tainly was, that they had a great deficiency in the revenue, as-
similating with a great expenditure in railways, and therefore
a great expenditure in railways did not at all tend to increase
the revenue of the country. The lion. Gentleman bad, how-
ever, just stated, that when he referred on a former occasion to
the expenditure upon seven of the lines of railways which he
then named, he did not refer to it in order to show the
amount expendedibut the amount about to be expended.
What, then, became of the other portion of the Hon. Mem-
ber's argument? If he meant anything at all, he meant to
show that Hon. Gentlemen on his aide of the House were all
for railways; hut he (Mr. Goulburn) could show that the ex-
penditure upon railways would not advance the revenue of the
country, for in the year 1840 there was a deficiency of
2,500,000/., and they had, at the same time, a proposition to
spend 47,000,0001. ; therefore the House might see that a de-
ficiency of 2,500,0001. was of more power than the proposed
expenditure of 47,000,000/. Suppose, for instance, that the
proposed expenditure had been an amount equal to that of
the national debt, tfie Honourable Member might then
have got up and said there was a great deficiency
but he would undertake to show them what they expended in
public works would not produce any benefit to the revenue,
because there was a proposed expenditure of 800,000,0001.,
and they still had an increased deficiency. And when, there-
fore, the Honourable Member said that the amount of capital
he referred to was not raised, but proposed to be raised, what
became of his arguments? He thought that was the real
state of the case. He certainly thought that it would
be better to have had the speech of the Honourable
Gentleman answered at once in the Committee. The
opinion expressed by the Hon. Gentleman was an opinion
of great weight, and coming from so great an authority
had had great weight with persona out of doors. The state-
ment made by Mr. Laing, and alluded to by the Hon. Member,
was a statement of an expenditure of 60,000,0001., which
commenced in 1822, and actually included in it the Manchester
and Liverpool Railways. He thought he had then made the
case perfectly clear to the House.
Mr. CARDWELL wished to address a few remarks upon
parts relating to the question. The first point was, were the
statements made by the Hon. Member for the University
of Cambridge perfectly and literally true in point of fact. The
second point was, were the arguments which his Hon.
Friend intended to base upon those statements perfectly true
and fair? The Hon. Member then went on to recapitulate
the statements made in the speech of his Hon. Friend on the
occasion referred to by the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn,
and contended that they were strictly and literally borne out
by the facts of the case. It was quite unfair to suppose that
his Hon. Friend should undervalue the benefits of railway
communication. He should, indeed, think that his Hon.
Friend would be unworthy to occupy the high position he held
in that House if he entertained such opinions.
Mr. HUDSON wished to say a few words with respect to
the statements of the Right lion. Gentleman the ex-Chanceller
of the Exchequer. He was not in the House at the time, but
the impression made upon the Noble Lord and others, by the
statements of that Right Hon. Gentleman, was the one he
had mentioned. He stated the amount of money raised in
1841. He stated also that the London and Birmingham was
empowered to raise 8,226,000/. up to 1841, but they had only
power to raise 500,003!. ( Hear, hear.) The same obser-
vation would apply to other railways. Some Hon. Gentlemen
seemed to think that the introduction of free trade measures had
created all the property of the country. He did not believe any
thing of the kind but that it arose from the energy of the capi-
talists of the country. The London and Birmingham was com-
menced in 1833, and was opened to the public in 1839 ; bet the
capital which the preprietors were empowered to raise, was
raised and expended before 1838. The same observation ap-
plied with equal truth to the Midland and Northern Companies,
which expended large sums of money before the deficiency re-
ferred to took place. The Hon. Gentleman the Memb-r for
Cambridge (Mr. Goulburn) had not always acted consistently
with respect to railways.
The motion was then agreed to.
" THE BLACK CAT."

SALE OF FEE-SIMPLE ESTATES
IN THE COUNTY OF KERRY.
On Thursday last Mr. W. W. Simpson, of London, offered
for sale by auction, in several lots, at the Commercial
Buildings here, valuable freehold estates, situate in the
county of Kerry.
At one o'clock the sale was opened by the particulars and
conditions being read, when
Mr. Simpson said—Gentlemen, there are observations
which I request to make, and probably I may say more than
you may deem expedient, because so many of the gentlemen
present are intimately acquainted with the locality of the
property which I have the honour to offer to you for competi-
tion this day. You are also conversant with the condition
of Ireland in general, as well as the prospective indications
touching the well-being of this country; if, therefore,
I trespass on your endurance, my apology must rest on that
of duty towards my employer, which may engender a
zeal beyond knowledge. My sincere desire is to avoid
misrepresentation, not alone for my own sake, but also
for that of the gentleman for whom I have this time
the honour to act. On these occasions the auctioneer is vir.
tually bound by certain limits, at the same time he has a
certain license for bringing the subject treated of before the
" mind's eye," through the intervention of that varnish which ,
will throw its best points into relief without altering the pic-
ture, For the last thirteen years 1 have had the honour, at
short intervals, of addressing myself to Irish proprietors and
capitalists; and I trust that those gentlemen who have ,
known and heard me during that period will do me the jus- I
tice to say, that if I have been guilty of sins they have
been venial, and partaking more of those of omission than
of commission. 1 will first, gentlemen, touch on the circum-
cumstatice of a Bill recently passed in Parliameat, relating
to free trade in corn, and in doing sa will take the liberty
to read a small portion of a speech made by ins to a very,
large assemblage of gentlemen and highly influeutial per-
sons (the majority of whom were Protectionists), at Nor-
wich, in the month of April last. On that occasion I said,
that," although I had been a thorough-going Protectionist,
I was proud to say that sliding and all other scales had now
fallen from my eyes," and that it was my honest convic-
tions that rents which have been fixed on fair and liberal
principles within the last seven years will be permanent;
also, that the years' purchase on such rentals has risen
within the last six months, and is all probability will
continue to rise; the increase of population (viz. 1,000 per
day) will, no doubt, form a counterpoise for any importation,
present or prospective, and thereby insure in ordinary seasons,
not excessive, but steady and remunerating prices for the
cultivator, as well as ample revenue to the landed proprietor;
and the assumed addition of sixty millions annually to the
actual wealth of the country, will contribute to a higher
years' purchase on the sale of land—the only property,
indeed, which can be considered essentially permanent
under adverse circumstances and political events. Instead,
therefore, of the motto--" Agitate, agitate," it will be better
policy to substitute that of—" Cultivate, cultivate." And
let landlords assist improving tenants by making advances of
that additional capital which may be required, in the nature
of drainage and other improvements, charging for the same at
the rate of 5 per cent. on such outlay and expenditure which
may be judiciously applied. Hence the tenant farmer will
reap a benefit in many instances of 25 per cent., and a
permanent improvement in rental, quasi landlord, will super-
vene." I further observed that, "in adopting free-trade
measures, Sir Robert Peel bad proved himself to be one of
the most talented, fore-sighted, and fearlessly honest minis-
ters that ever lived in the tide of times." The present aspect
of the United Kingdom fully justifies the opinion here ex-
pressed of the eminent talents and courage displayed by Sir
Robert Peel; and it is stated by the most competent judges
that if his wise measures of free- trade had not been carried
out, the prices of corn and produce would have risen to a
famine height. In conclusion, I said, I cannot refrain from
alluding to the opinion of that eminent man, the late Sir
Charles Wetherell, on this subject. A high Tory and firm
Protectionist, the fears he entertained as to the probable re-
sults of the repeal of the corn-laws induced him to determine
on selling all his landed property; but his better judgment
prevailed, and he not only retained possession of it, but was
in the course of making further investments when he met his
lamented fate. The Protectionists—where are they? Where
are now your prophets which prophecied unto you? Gen-
tlemen, you must remember I made these observations in
April last, and up to the present time I have been
fully borne out in my predictions. The Government are
now in good earnest, and we shall see the small farmer of
this country rising in the grade of society. It is not because
that in this country we now see a peasantry poor, and clad
in mean habiliments—it is not, I say, because of this that
we cannot perceive that foundation of intellect on which a
noble superstructure may be raised. Hath not Shakspere
said—

" For 'tis the mind that makes the body rich ;
And as the sun breaks through the darkest clouds,
So honour peereth in the meanest habit.
What ! is the jay more precious than the lark
Because his feathers are more beautiful?
Or is the adder better than the eel
Because his painted skin contents the eye ?"
Yes, Gentlemen, the hands of Government are on the plough,
and they must not look back, for whether it be a Govern.
ment or an individual doing so, the penalty of unworthiness
must attach. The Government is now moving on with a
projectile force; and I tell you, Gentlemen, with such a pa-
ternal Government, this country, at no distant time, will
rise to that high scale which is her natural position amongst
the kingdoms of the earth. With respect to the ten millions
proposed by Lord John Russell to be lent to this country at
3i, per cent.—it has been mooted that should Government
make these advances they will take precedence of the en-
cumbrancers, and that the present mortgagees would be
placed in a false position. This mode of reasoning appears
to me the height of folly ; for I opine the loans contem-
plated by Government, instead of weakening the se-
curity of present incumbraucers, will place them in a
much more secure position, for the value of the
estates will be increased in an inverse ratio. God Al-
mighty, in his infinite and inscrutable wisdom, pours afflic-
tive dispensations on the earth; and I will venture to read
some former observations I made on this subject. I said,
" that the All-wise and Omnipotent Disposer of human events
has visited that country (Ireland) with the potato scourge,
i for the purpose of stimulating the Government and landed
proprietary to form plans and make such advances of money
as will immediately tend to production and reproduction,
and thus at once improve the condition of millions of the
Irish poor peasantry and tenantry generally ; and by fur-
nishing that ' seed to the sower' which will give ' bread to
the eater'—superseding the cultivation, and feeding solely on
a vegetable yielding twenty-five per cent. only of food nutri-
tious to the human frame—they will thus be enabled to grow
and consume cnrn crops in all their variety—produce which,
under a fair course of husbandry, does not, like the potato,
exhaust the natural power of the land ; and, at the
same time, the feeding and foddering, the straw of their
crops will give an incalculable quantity of manure, whereas
the potato plant will afford comparatively little." In con-
clusion, gentlemen, I will venture to repeat a few more lines
from Shakspeaire, as applicable to the position of the govern-
ment and lauded proprietary of Ireland :
" Come—l have learn 'd that fearful commenting
Is leaden servitor to dull delay ;
Delay leads impotent and snail-paced beggary :
Then, fiery expedition be my wing,
Jove's Mercury, and herald for a king !"
Mr. EDWAILD DAY SToxEs observed that the present par-
ticular of sale was the fairest and best he had ever seen pill:-
lished is Ireland.
Mr. Simrsosi—l am much obliged to you, Sir. I consider
it a great compliment coming from a gentleman of so high a
character, and one so intimately acquainted with the nature
and circumstances'of the estates.
Sonic very spiriied competition then ensued, when the fol-
lowing gentlemen were declared purchasers of the several lots
which were sold :
John Hickson, Esq., Deputy-Lieuteuant, The Grave,
Dingle.
John Leahy, Esq., South Hill, Killarney.
The Rev. A. B. Rowan, Belmont, Tralee.
E. B. Hartopp, Esq., Dalby House, Melton Mowbray, Lei-
cestershire.
James Butler, Esq., Deputy-Lieutenant, Waterville, Cahir-
civeen.

Mr. MUNTZ gave notice that he would postpone his
motion relative to the detention of the schooner "Black Cat"
until Friday next, when he would bring it on in Committee of
Supply.
The reports of the Committees on Ways and Means and of
Supply were then brought up and received.
CONSOLIDATED FUND BILL. .

The Consolidated Fund 8,000,000/. Bill then went through
Committee.
The [louse adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock.

PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS.

- - -
(From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons.)
TUZISDAY, MARCII 2.
The following Railway Bills were presented, read a first
time, and ordered to be read a second time :
Edinburgh and Bathgate (Deviation and Amendment)—
" to enable the Edinburgh and Bathgate Railway Company
to extend their Barracks Branch, to deviate a portion of their
main line, and for other purposes."
Edinburgh and Glasgow—" to authorise the Edinburgh
and Glasgow Railway Company to hold Stock in or to pur-
chase or lease the Edinburgh and Bathgate, the Stirling and
Dunfermline, and the Glasgow, Airdrie, and Monklands
Junction Railways, and for other purposes."
Edinburgh and Perth—" for making a Railway from
North Queensferry, by Inverkeithing and Kinross to the
Scottish Central Railway at Moncrietr Hill, with Branches;
to be called • The Edinburgh and Perth Railway.' "
' Wexford and Valencia (Killarney to Valencia)—" for
making a Railway from the town of Killarney, in the county
of Kerry, to the Harbour of Valencia, in the same county,
to be called ' The Wexford and Valencia Railway.' "
Great Northern (Deviations between Peterborough, Boston,
and Gainsborough)—" to enable the Great Northern Rail•
way Company to make certain alterations in the Line of
their Railway, as already authorised between Peterborough,
Boston, and Gainsborough."
Great Northern (Deviations near Doncaster)—" to enable
the Great Northern Railway Company to divert the Line of
their Railway, as already authorised between Gainsborough
and Doncaster."
Great Southern and Western Extension (Portarlington to
Tullamore)--" to enable the Great Southern and Western
Railway Company to make a Railway from Portarlington to
Tuilamore."
The following Railway Bills were read a second time, com-
tnitted, and referred to the Committee of Selection :
Dublin and Drogheda (Purchase of Navan Branch, &c.)
Great Western (Amendments and Extensions).
Newmarket and Chesterford.

Cork and Bandon.
Cork, Blackrock, and Passage.

'The undarnamed Bills were presented, read a first time,
and ordered to be read a second time :

Inverness Municipal and Police, Sec.--" for extending the
Municipal Boundaries of the burgh of Inverness; establish-
ing a general system of Police therein ; lighting and cleans-
ing the Streets; improving and maintaining, and, if neces-
sary, rebuilding the Bridges over the river Ness, and making
Accesses thereto; providing Public Markets and Bleaching
Greens; regulating the Bridge Tolls, Petty and Market
Customs, and for other purposes relating to the said Burgh."
Inverness Harbour and Navigation Improvement—" for
deepening, enlarging, improving, and maintaining the Port
and Harbour of Inverness, and the Navigation of the river
Ness, and the Quays and Piers and other Works connected
therewith ; for regulating the Anchorage and Shore Dues of
the said Port and Harbour, and for other purposes relating
thereto."

The
average
rate cf purchase was twenty.seven years ;
none of the lots (whereof several appeared to be let at their
full value) fetching less than twenty-three years' purchase.
The sales being concluded,
Mr. SIMFCON returned thanks for the kindness and ur-
banity he had met with, and, in doing so, took occasion to
state that he had been requested by several noblemen and
gentlemen to issue a third edition of his pamphlet, " A De-
fence of the Landlords of Ireland," which had run through
two editions since 1844; and in the forthcoming one it was
his intention to add a postscript, explanatory of his views as
to that which the Government were called upon to do, in
order to develope the resources of the country.—Dublin
Eventng racket of Tuesday, Feb. 23.

COURT CIRCULAR.
Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Kent visited the Queen
yesterday.
Her Majesty, accompanied by the Prince of Wales, Prince
Alfred, and the Princess Alice, walked yesterday in the Gar-
dens of Buckingham Palace.
His Royal Highness Prince Albert presided, yesterday
afternoon, at a meeting of the Commissioners for Promoting
and Encouraging the Fine Arts, in tke rebuilding the Palace
of Westminster. His Royal Highness arrived at Gwydyr
House, Whitehall, shortly before three o'clock, attended by his
Equerry in Waiting, Colonel Bouverie. The Commissioners
present were the Marquis of Lansdowne. Lord John 12unaell,
murpetn, Lord Ashburton, Lord
Colborne, the Right Hon. the Speaker, Sir Robert Harry
Inglis, Mr. Benjamin Hawes, Mr. Henry Hallam, Mr. G.
Vivian, and Mr. T. Wyse. The Secretary, Mr. Eastlake, was
in attendance.

NOTICES GIVEN AT THE PRIVATE BILL-OFFICE.
'The following Railway Bill is appointed to be read a
second time:—

MONDAY, MAISCII 8.
Colchester, Stour Valley, Sudbury, and Halstead (Lease to
the Ipswich and Bury St. Edmund's Railway Company).

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS.

From the Votes and Proceedings if the House of Commoru.

TUESDAY, MARCH 2.
CIIURCRES (SCOTLAND).

•
Motion made, and Question put, " That r Select com-
mittee be appointed to inquire whether, and in what part of
Scotland, and under what circumstances, large numbers of
her Majesty's subjects have been deprived of the means of
religious worship by the refusal of certain proprietors to
grant them sites for the erection of Churches. ' The House

At four o'clock Prince Albert and the other Commissioners
proceeded to the Palace at Westminster, and went over the
New Houses of Parliament, attended by the architect, Mr.
Barry. . . .

MAJORITY-AYES, 89.
Aldam, William Evans, William O'Brien, C.
Arundel, Earl of Fielden, John O'Connell, D., jun.
Baine, Walter Forster, Mathew O'Connell, M. J.
Bannerman, A. Fox, C. It. O'Connell,:John
Barclay, David Gibson, Thomas M. Oswald, Alexander
Baring, F. T. Gore, Robert I'almerston, Viscount
Barnard, E. G. Grey, Sir G. Parker, John
Vernal, Ralph Ilall, Sir Benjamin Plumptre, J. P.
Blake, M. J. Ilastie, Archibald Plumridge, Captain
trotherton, Joseph Hawes, Benj. Rice, E. R.
Brown, W. Ilay, Sir A. L. Russell, Lord J.
Browne, W. Ilinclley, C. ItutherfurdlA.
Brownrigg, J. S. Hobliouse, Sir J. Smith, J. A.
Buller, Charles Iloward, C. W.G. Somerville, Sir W.
Buller, Edward Howard, P. 11. Stansfleld, W. It. C.
Chaplin, W. J. Humphery, Ald. Stanton, W. 11.
Christie, W. D. Hutt, William Stuart, Lord J.
Clay, Sir W. James, William Stuart, V.
Colebrooka, Sir T. Labouchere, Henry Stride, Edward
Collett, John Larnbton, 11. Tancred, 11. W.
Craig, W. G. Macaulay, T. B. Thornely, T.
Dennistoun, J. M'Clintock, W. B. Trelawny, J. S.
D'Eyncourt, C. T. M`Taggart, Sir J. Tufnell, 11.
Dickinson, F. E. Mangles, R. D. Villiers, Charles
Duff, James Maule, Fox Ward, 11. G.
Duncan, George Mitchell, T. A. Wawn, J. T.
Pundits, F. Monahan, J. H. Yorke, Henry R.
Dundas, David Morpeth, Viscount
Morison, General TELLERS.
Ellice, Edward
Ellice, E., jun. Mure, Colonel Bouverie, E. P.
Escott, Bickhaat
Napier, Sir Charles Ewart, William

Her Majesty and Prince Albert inspected at Buckingham
Palace, two medals of Lord Ilardinge, the work of Mr. G. G.
Adams.

The Queen had a dinner party yesterday. The company
included her Royal Highness the Duchess of Kent, their
Royal Highnesses the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge, his
Serene Highness Prince Frederick of Hesse, their Excellen-
cies Baron and Baroness de Cetto, his Excellency Baron de
Hugel, the Marquis and Marchioness of Lansdowne, Lady
Augusta Cadogan, Lady Fanny Howard, Baroness de Spetli,
the Earl Auckland, and the Hon. Miss Eden, Lord and Lady
Ashley, Lord Ernest Bruce, the Right Hon. Sir Robert and
Lady Peel, and Mr. Edmond Mildmay.
The band of the Coldstream Guards attended at Bucking-
ham Palace during dinner, and performed the following
pieces :
Overture, " Leonora," Beethoven.
American Polka, Jullien.
Selection from " The Crusaders," Benedict.
Waltz, " Fleur de Marie," Barret.
Pas Redouble, "Le Roi des Mere," Gurtner.
Their Royal Highnesses the Duchess of Cambridge and
the Princess Mary, and his Serene highness Prince Frede-
rick of Hesse, attended by Baroness Hammerstein and Mr.
Edmond Mildmay, visited and inspected the British Mu-
seum yesterday.
A deputation of gentlemen from the centre of the county
of Kent had an interview with the Right Hon. C. Strutt
yesterday, at the office of the Commissioners of Railways, in
Great George-street. The deputation consisted of the Earl
Stanhope, the Right Hon. F. C. Herries, 'Sir John W. Lub-
bock, Mr. John Rogers, and Mr. J. P. Atkins.
The Bishop of Barbadoes had an interview with Earl Grey
yesterday, at the Colonial-office.
Several members of the " Short Time" Committee from
Manchester attended yesterday at the Treasury, to deliver a
number of petitions to Lord John Russell.
The Earl of Devon had an interview with Sir George Grey
yesterday, at the Home-office.
Sir Robert Ferguson had an interview yesterday with the
Right Hon. Edward Strutt, at the office of the Commissioners
of Railways.
Dispatches were seat off last evening from the Colonial.
office for the Governor of Ceylon.

MINORITY-NOES, 61.
Acland, T. D. Du Pre, C. G. Mundy, E. M.
Ainsworth, Peter Fellowes, E. Munta, G. F.
Antrobus, Edmund Finch, G. Newdegate, N.
Arkwright.l9. Fuller, A. E. O'Brien, A. Stafford
Austen, Colonel Godson, R. Polhill, Frederick
Bailite, W. Goulburn, Henry Rashleigh, W.
Bankes, George Graham, Sir James Sandon, Viscount
Barrington, Viscount Halsey, T. P. Scott, Robert
Beckett, W. Hamilton, W. J. Scott, Francis
Bentinck, Lord G. Herbert, Sydney Spooner, Richard
Berestord, Major Illidyard, T. B. Sheppard, T.
Bowles. Admiral Hinds, J. 11. Stanley, E.
Broadley, Henry Hodgson, R. Taylor, E.
Campbell, Sir 11. Hope, Sir J.
TollemachThompson, A
J.lderman
Cardwell, Edward Hudson, G. e,
Clerk Sir G. Jermyn, Earl Vyse, R. 11. R. H.
Clive, Vise. Lawson, Andrew Walsh, Sir J. B.
Cripps, William M'Neill, Duncan Wodehouse, E.
Disraeli, B. March, Earl of TELLEES.
Douglas, Sir C. E. Marsland, Henry Wortley, J. S.
Duckworth, Sir J. Martin, C. W. Inglis, Sir R.

SIR W. COTTON.—That gallant and popular officer
Lieut.-General Sir Willoughby Cotton, left London yester-
day morning, with his Aide. de camp, Lord Adolphus Vane,
to embark for India for the fourth time, and to assume tho
office of Commander-in-Chief at Bombay. He carries with
him the universal good wishes of the profusion to which he
belongs.

FLOODS IN PARIS.—Notwithstanding the fine
weather and the absence of rain in Paris, the waters of the
Seine still maintain their height at 5 metres 60 centitUtres.