The Sun.
London, England, 1812-07-02 00:00:00

•
ledged 'a
'foreign tovekeign in sniritual or in tem-
Poral matters. He would next teg_ leave to draw
the attention of their Lordships to what had been
done for. them since the Revolution. 7,,Ve hattpro-:
Seeded from month to month, and from day to day,
in concessions consistent with. the spirit of our
Constitution, and guarded by that cautious, po-
licy Which should regulate
,such proceedings. If
the present Motion was carried, and. it meant
not consideration but concession, as he hoped. for
God's mercy, he did not think he should be living
tinder the same Constitution, as hitherto. Fe4ling
the weight.of all those objections strongly press-
ing on his mind, it was his intention to conclude
With a motion, upon which .he should divide the
Rouse, if he was to stand alone. As _the Noble
karquis (Lord Wellesley) and he had agreed on.
a former occasion, that they could not you for
eoneession under the existing,circuinstances, so lie
'(the Lord-Chancellor) ,under similar circhinstances
eould not vote forthe motion of the Noble Marquis.
'e' should sit dowh, after giVing notice to their
Lordships that he meant to move the previous
litestion.
• The 'Earl of HafinwfoxE observed, that it was
not for him to say what his ancestor would have
4one-if they were living now ; but, as far as he
innierstood their 'principles from public and from
Private sources, he believed that Lord Chancellor
Somers and Lord Chancellor Hardwicke, had they
acted in the 'present day, would have differed ex-
eceditigly from the Noble upon the Wool-
laek• He • was surprised to hear' the futile ar-
• guments adopted by the Noble Lord; they ap-
peared to him," if they' went to any thing, to.go
1° this, that the door ought to have been shut
‘gainst concession at the commencement ; that
lkither the Acts of 1778, or 1732, of 1.792,, or
1793,v ought to have been passed, and that the
b-`4011.1e Lord ought7not to have been shocked
I,Y a sight so alarming as that of Roman Catho-,
fie,pleading at the Irish bar. For his own part,
e had been in Ireland in the years 1781 and
1
14.82 before the relaxations alluded to by the
(ibl'e Lord were enacted. He had also seen it
leeetitly, and be 'could state from the comparison
'!e was thus enabled to draw, that its present pro-
Petity in agriculture and in commeree,was owing
o those acts. It would be imposSible the agricul-
t‘
,qe of the country could -succeed if the Catholics
0,(1 lboured under their former disqualifications.
• i(l4 ,Lordship went over the circumstances which
inniediately succeeded the Union, praised the con-
et of the Marquis Cornwallis and Mr. Pitt, both
°,f ‘vhoin resigned, because the expectations of the
(to, whom, however; be acknowledged,
ttn premise had ever been given), could not be
jalized. After some further arguments, he con-
hy declaring, that he should vote for the
,h.
taeh Earl of CLAXCARTY said, that whatever
t'e'ige or expectation might have been held out
an Go'vernment, it could not he interpreted into
an• intention of granting all, without 'any view to
tec°ll3panyiug securities. Having,' about two
pr'Vrs ago, gone minutely into the subject, he
°nld- net recapitulate his arguments upon the
tgent occasion ; but there was one point which
the
telt it.necessary to press upon the attention of
the House. He did then 'say, and (continuing of:
,re ~erne opinion) should still maintain that when-
, 'r it -was right to take up this subject, the Ito-
:an Catholics of Ireland should come forward with
4-endly dispositions-, and in a conciliatory tone.
te regretted to see the string of resolutions which
h
t'er had lately passed ; but it was necessary to
2,lisider what was right to be done, and to atquire
pTnat securities would be necessary to obviate
e. danger of their unqualified admission,to all
laeges.
ne Duke of SUSSEX said, he did not intend to
I,:tcve spoken ; but after what had fallen frOm the
, hie , Lord on the Woolsack, he was again desi-
tVus of repeating hissentirnents upon this subject. •
ie hoped the Noble Lord would do him the jus-
,e, eto alloy:that he was as anxious to support the
`'nurch and State as any other indiyidual. He
S happy to find that aconsiderable• change had
taAen plane inthe opinions of the public with respect •
° the Catholic Claims. Within six weeks two at-
tiinpts had been made to form a, new Administra-
d°n, andthe basis of both was a pledge to consi-
or the Catholic, claims at an early period. Surely
e moment was now arrived when a question in-
eving the happiness. of millions ought to be
04isidered and when civil diistinctions between
it,aA°lie and Protestant ought to be wiped
4.:a.Y. If he .thought that such a proceeding wa.s
ainst the Constitution, no man- would be far-
-13. from advising it, but thinking otherwise, he
.save
14_ hearty concurrence to the motion. He
u,l.lght the concessions already made affbrded an
argument for granting the remainder,
br' maintained, that the possession of wealth and
R't°Perty should be connected with power. He
thated that there were now upwards of seven
Cnsand places closed' against the Catholics' of
aueland ; and though he disapproved of the eon-
heet of eager individuals from the bottom of his
vi 4141 he deprecated the idea of charging • their
e'enee upon the whole body. Be should vote
',the motion.
d"°rd HARROWBT said, that the more he consi-
ered the question, the more he doubted whether
Qwas for the general, advantage that things should
I.l4laht in the same state as before the Union.—
disapproved strongly of the conduct of the
ti'tholies, in abandoning the usual mode of peti-
qll, and in their subseqnent revolutions. But it.
till()111(1 not be forgotten, that they were adopted
ti der eirchinstances of considerable disappoint-
% ej't• Those only who thought that inquiry was
j
bleat evil, should vote against. the motion. ilQuiry must take place, and the only question
them a'vas,' whether they would participate in
the
gat inquiry or not ? Inquiry was- necessary. for
satisfaction of both sides, and would' afford
Ule b
est means of defeating. the, designs .of our
In The Dake,of KENT expressed himself warmly
th iavour of conciliatory measures,, which he
lec'ught, instead of ehdangering, would tend to
ei,ure our civil rights. He was far from dis-
\N.°; `7ling the necessity of those guards which the
established
Of the Legislature might require for the
religion of the country, and contem-
goat.,ed the motion as a pledge from which every
14t °q would result. He trusted that the Legisr
lire Would uot only adopt the Measure, but go

, .
into a 'gen-gar cons'ideratiOn 'every' Ching
pressed upo the lower orders of tfie community
in that nation,the correction of which; if he w'as
rightly.informed, was long and loudly
:The:Archbishop of CANTEheurtY disclaimed
inference, that these: whb Oppi;sed the motion
were for shutting the door against consideration;
-fmd as Parliament in his opinion must cdnsider the
subject. next Session, whether the auction was
conceded or not, he did not see the necessity of
it, and therefore should not, suppOrt it.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH declared, that he was not
favoured.lvith any part of that ;illumination which
bad fallen so brilliantly upon the minds of sonic
„Noble, Lords, and more particularly on that of the
Noble Marquis (Wellesley), who' had been the
day-star, since the ,13th of January; (a laugh
)--
A Noble Earl-on the opposite bench; did not ap-
pear to hini. to be much more fortunate. After
voting against going into a committee on a for-
mer occasion, he was willing to pledge the Muse
to adopt an inquiry now, though there existed no
change of circumstances to justify the alteration'.
As for hiniself, he was a man' of simple habit;
he loved consistency and truth. For this reason
he honoured his Noble -Friends upon his left
(though he differed from them 'in opinion on the
subject) when in a consistent march in favour of
a measure whose justice and policy they support-
ed„.they evinced their sincerity by the sacrifice-of
rank and power to a proposition which did not go
one-tenth part so far as that which was now under'
discussio?, ; a proposition On which- they were
thus driven over -by the very mouths which now
agreed with theni. He stood there in support of
consistency and' truth, -and' all that was dignified,
in the characters of men. He 'was not against'
concession ; God forbid ! but he was against 'giv-
ing the staff
.of power out of his hand before he
knew whethq it would be necessary to wield it in
his defence.-(lledr, hear 1).----He thought that
the system of conciliation should be combined
With a system of security, and believed, if those .
securities were agreed' upon, that a man of plain
understanding might comprise all the Catholics
wanted in a short Act of Parliament. There was .
one difficulty out of which he could never see his
way. The Boman Catholics were not in the :same,
situation with other DiSsenters in remird. to
regard 441,
reign allegiance. It was true, that the evils to ..)4
apprehended from this were, much alleviated by
the present condition -0f theTope ; but yvhO was
it that imposed these fettefir,;on him %—litiona-
parte; and was it' not to be gored. that the man-
dates he might issue would find odedience in many
parts Without regard' to the degraded cell from
whencethey derived their authority-?
Lord Hor,LikNia said; he should decline enter-
ing into the details of the question, and expressed -
his satisfaction at the progress which this subject- .
-had made. His Lordship, hoWever, went over
Most of his former arguments upon this subject,
and after alluding t. the oaths taken by them,
ridiculed the apprehension entertained respecting
.tie admission'ot Catholics into Parliathent while.
taey were suffered to enter into the army and
navy. He vindicated their general character, and
contended that even their excesses proved them
worthy the boon they asked. It would be wise to
do something to conciliate them by giving the
proposed pledge, and.he should therefore give his
most hearty vote for the motion.

The LORD CHANCELLOR explained.
Lord MuLosAvE went over the reasons which
had influenced himself and his Noble Friends in
opposing the consideration of the Catholic Claims
before, and proved that at
,the present time, the
obstacles which were before in the way were in a
.great measure removed.. Lie thought it would be
well for their Lordships to take the _subject into
their inost serious consideration early in the next
Session of Parliament, and that it would then be
desirable to grant theta all that could consistent-
ly be granted, and then to bar the • door against
any further concession. All that could be granter
ought to be granted at once. Gradual conces-
sions would not produce the desired effect. So
much had already been given, that to give a,sorne-.
thing more was indispensable. ' They had already
given them the elective franchise, and admitted
them to the Army, to the, Navy, and to the Bar,
and he •could not discover what, danger was to be
apprehended from admitting thein to highersitua-
tions than they were at prekLlt allowed to fill in
those professions.

Lord CAINIDEN was disposed to grant the; re-
qnired concessions, if satisfactory securities could
be given.
The Duke of NORTOLK thought if an oath were
.framed for' the Catholics, declarimr, that no
Prince, Potentate, or other Foreign,, Power, has,
or ought to have any power spiritual or tempo-
ral within this realm, that could in any way' have
a tendency to subvert the Protestant Establish,'
ment, that' little more would be necessary; and.
that, as had been stated' by a Noble Lord, all
that was wanted by the Catholics might be com-
prised in a very short Act of Parliament.
A Noble Lord on the cross bench (whose
name we could. not learn) opposed the motion.
The Earl of Morin contended that the motion
had been unfairly met by the previous question.
Nothing could be more distinct than that which-
had been stated by. his Noble, Friend,, that he
onlycalled- upon their Lordships to pledge them-
themselves to the fair and dispassionate considera
tion of this paramount question. This the- state
of Ireland and of the Ernpire at large rendere,d"
more than ever desirable
,The late Resolutions

of the Catholics ho.thought their L7,rdships ought
to lay wholly out of their consideration, in dis-
cussing a measure of so much importance No
man would be More 'ready to oppose the Catholic
claims than himself, if making the required con-
___

ceoions went to endanger the Protestant Esta-
.

blishment—but he knew of no such danger. The
present motion only called for a plodge to take
the subject into consideration next Session ; the
previous question, if carried, could only get rid of
the business for one night, and it would imme-
diately, come before them again. lie therefore
called. upon their Lordships to make up their
minds to give the pledge required ; and, conscious

that the doubts andleTrirs- attached to the subject
were in a great measure to beascribed*to its not
having .been properly investigated,. he trusted it
would be thoroughly examined in the next Ses-
sion., and that the result wouldibe relief to the
Catholics.

. .
Lord. SID NI6IIT II said,.had le been of-e,:',. 'of :thos.6
Who,. on the 31st of January, opposed the motion
of another Noble Lord, on the-geounds :on which
thp:*. motion was,opposed bv his.;No'hie Friend who
had this day brought theklaials' of the Catholics
wider. i:Orisideration, he On:Mid-have felt it inCunt-
bent upon hint to oppose the motion before the,
Louse. -His memory did nbt serve him well, if
the NOble.4arquis had not then 'opposed the mo-
tion on the ground that the conduct of the Ca-
tholics had been such as to render concession, and
even'Consideration of their claims, improper; and
,observed that conciliation, would be dearly pur-
chased if it were gained at the expence of the dig-
nity Of the Crown and of Parliament. He (the Mar-
quis Wellesley) had, said that the Catholics bad
arrayed themselves in the armour of right, and
presented themselves in a, menacing attitude while,
petitioning the Legislature,-and tbat,, ander:these
circumstances, and on these grounds, their claims
-ought not to be considered. If he (Lord Sidmouth).
had agreed -with the Noble Marquis then, how
could 'he now consistently vote with him ? How
did he know, when he was called upon to pledge
himself to take their claims into consideration in
the next S6sion of Parliametit, that within- the
four or five months which must first pass,vthey
Would not again come .forward with their armour
of right, in a menacing, attitude, and inAhe same
temper as before,.:when it was thought advise-.
able not to take their claims into "considera ion ?
n What had bee their conduct since the ,eriocl
j
at which that motion was brought forward ? Their ,
conduct, as had been: said, and•he 'id not wish to
controvert it, hadbeen within the pale of the law;
but he regretted to say, that the temper which
they had lately (and very lately too) displayed;
was not such as to do.away any former unfavour-
able , impressions. He ptild not accede to the
motion now before the House, and pledge hint,
Self to the Consideration Of the. 'Subject in the
next Session, consistently with the grounds and-
principles on which he had, resisted the motion of
the Noble Earl on that day.. He was called Upon
to enter into the subject fairly, and honestly -to,
consider it. He could not do so. When called
onto consider' the Catholic Claims, with a view
to an amicable adjustment, and with a.view.to un--
limited concessibn, fairly and honestly, .he could
neat do it, as he could not agree to 'take that un-
limited view with his limited vieW.of the' subject.
If their Lordships were daerinitiecl to consider it,
they ought to be determined to concede ; as, to
determine. to consider was to hold out a prospect
of conceding, and that to an-unlimited extent:—
When. they ;were told of -four or five' millihn's_ of
people, the pt of Ireland, who were -to be
conciliated. by Emancipation, he would ask when
he heard such exaggerations, if any man could-
lay his ,hand upon his heart; and say,. that be be-
lieved that.one-fourth of that number would be-
in any way improved Or affected by the measure
calledfor. - This subject ought to be more clearly '
looked at. They had looked too much at its top,
and too little at its.base.. . The :evils which afflict-
ed Ireland were those which oppressed the great
mass of her population. Her situation was now.
happily improving, as might be seen from the pro-
gress of agriculture in that country, and from
other "circumstances., Their Lordships deceived
themselves if they thougletthat the discontents of
Ireland grew out; of solicitude on this subject.---
Those who were most anxious in pursuit of this
measure, for the accomplishment 'of Which so
may Noble Lords were disposed to give their aid,
drew their arguments from that state of irritation
and, discontent, of which other circumstances
were the cause. The emancipation which the;
interests of Ireland required, was an, emancipation
from ignorance and
.poverty. These a benevolent
Goverimient might iii time soften ; ' ly.:t it was in
vain to think that this could be accomplished by
any one measure, or that airy thing .but time and
progressive improvethent could place' a country
this circumstanced in that situation which was to
be. desired. if securities, however, could be de-
Nisei', and brOught forward, that would 'snfilcient-
ly guard the country against
,all foreign interfer-
ence; if this could be done, aril a proposition
were laid distinctly betor him,' which would gii'e
the Catholics .a full participation in the blessings
of the Constitution,, without endangering the in-
terests of the Protestants, it would have his most
hearty support.
The MarqUis of HEADFORT offered a few oh-
servations, which could not be distinctly collected
below the bar. '

The Marquis of I.4.‘msnowNE argued at some
length-in support of the motion.
The. Duke of CUMBERLAND shortly olerved,
(asi we could hear his Royal Highness)• that he
should have been happy to have supported the
motion ; but having seen the Resolutions ex-
pressed ut a recent meeting of the e.atholi6-k, theY
appeared to be of that. nature -which should, deter

. , . .
liiiii• from sanctioning the proposition in cluttstion
by his vote.
The Earl of LlVERPOor,,Observed that with re-
,
spect' to the genehaproposition before the House,
there were two ways in which it should be.consi-

. . ,
dercn ; first, with referenee to its, practicablity-,;
and secondly; with tespect to its expediency. .He
should conceive himself B,s acting in a- way un-
Worthy ,his character, if
.he.afforded support to A
motion, without cleailly seeing his-way as to
its leadin to a satisfactory coAchision. On• the
first of these grounds he should always stand.
—He Would never meet a great quest-ion by
little shifts or little expedients. It should
be met upon great and general priniples.—
lf it could be So, he would be last
man in the lionse to prevent such a . con-
sideration of' the question. But when taken up-
on great and general principles, if he could not see
.. .
his way to a safe conclusion, lie should not be act-
ing justly or inanfUlly, if lie did not avow that
sentiment and act . . accordingly: Were, the,
ous opinions of the Catholics the only obstacle,
those should make no difference whatever. If, as
was said by a NOble Friend, any number . of per-
sons•would agree to take the Oath-of Supremacy,
there could be no danger in going to that- extent.
This oath included an abjuration of all foreign
risdiction, spiritual as well.as temporal. He con-
sidered it as a fundamental principle, laid down at:
the Revolution i it was laid down as an essential

principle, that a Protestant Government was to be
firmly established in these realms. He conceived
/this to be that the powe

of the State ivas to be

• *Protesiiint, and for the 'euefit of ail descriptions
of its subjects. The
.arguments -of his
Friengs were net fairly.stated by Noble tor 's ~p-poSite.
poSite. It was stated only, that in the I. rese it re-
spective Situations of the bench Govermueat and
the Court of Rome, such a state of things may
arise, as would render the Papal power; so,in-
,fluenced, as dangerous as ever in this country.
any one political principle was more firmly esta-
blished than another; it was that the subjectl; of a
state should owe no allegiance out Of that state. gn-
der these circumstances, he felt himself called onto
state, that as he coupd not see his way to any -benefi,
cial result from the motion of his Noble -Friend,
he could not feel himself justified in acceding to
it. It Was a moxitn of his political life—a maxim
confirmed by all that he had ever heard, read, of
observed, that with respect to a great Constitu-
tional question,. if a stand Were to be made, it
should. be Made in limine. Therefore, as he
not clearly any „pilospect of a practical conclusion
frOm the present proposition, he thought the true
way in point of principle, and the most manly
way, was to take the stand :of resistance in the
first instance.. He would even go . farther, anti
state; that if he were determined to make con-
cession, he would still oppose the _motion, because.
he was against making any-great change in the laws,
without knowing what thc. change was to be. 'Before
he could consent to a change, it...must-be shewn -tO
him, at the tithe the measure-was proposed;,what
was to be proposed in the room of that Which then
existed. He believed it was comppteut-- to any
Noble. Peer to lay Bill upon the table; and to
shew therein what it. was proposed to repeal, and
what to retain.—He agreed with his Noble Friend
opposite, it was right to consider this great ques-;
lion. as a whole, and he koped, that whatever may.
,be-done on the subject, it would be done at once ;
it was impossible to formajust estimate of the,
character of a measure proposed .for adoption-,
Without knowing the.whole extent of what was
meant to be done:

The Earl of DON °UGH-NI-ORE . supported fl 6
Motion.

,Lord 11fr4H,Lealso supported the, motion, in
doing which; he said, he did not consider himself
as performing an act. of inconsistency.
Lord REDESDALE opposed the motion..
The Earl of PARAEY spoke 'in favour of the
Resotation proposed by the -Noble Marquis.
',Lordship entered into a statement ,respecting the
Catholics rmi Protestants in Ireland.- The
tholics had increased considerably of late, and the
Protestants had decreased. -,The Catholics for.
merly consisted of:32,000 persons; of 'late they,
had increased to 47,000., The Protestants at tnst
were. 17,090 ; now they were only 10,000, The
latter statement was confined to a particular distr;et, -
The Noble Earl. observed, that lie could have fur.,
nislied the House with useful information on the
subject, but, the lateness of the hour prevented,
him. lie. had derived great advantage respecting
tke affairs of Ireland, from Mr. Wakefield's valu-
able work, which every person in the Country
ought to read:

Lord GRENVILLE -supported the question, and
urged the total repe4 of all the disabilities udder
which the Catholics laboured.

Earl STAN fTOPE TOIC to a point of order, to
Zacr,v his Noble Friends opposite h0,.-; they might
carry the question with the greatest ease--that
was by clearing the House not of the Irish, but
of all the English Bietops---ra lauglo.—Nothing
was clearer than the power -to do it. He had
found an old English Act of Parliament which
gave the authority, which if _Dot put in force •
against the friends of religious liberties, stcuild be
at least 'fairly employed in catching them in their
own net.---There tva qn Act passed in the reign
'of Charles the Secolt!, enforced- by one of the
present reign, which went to prevent. Papists from,
sitting on the Bench of- Bishops; or in- othq
words made " Popish recusant convicts," and •
he would prove it to the satisfaction of the Re-
verend Prelates in a minute. It enacte t, " Th
front and after December,l, (which was past)
, every Peer and Member of this House (meaning the
Bishops); who should come advisedly into the
presence of the Icing or Queen Majesty, during
their reigns, or the reigns, of their successors;
• shall incur all the pains, and penalties of the act,
unless such Members .(meaning the. Bishops) should
te:•-,e the neces:sary oaths in the Court of Chan-
cery, between the hours
_of nine and ItVelve
o'clock itrthe morning of the day, so'coming in-
to the. Royal presence," - No*, what did the
Bishop's do ? Why, instead of taking the oaths`
first, they went 'immediately to Court like other
COurtiers, and of course became Popish Recusants.
When his Bill was 'before the House, he would
(if theY Were good buys) bring it in in such a form
as, should turn them clearrotit of the House, head
'and,shoulders. , The next clause in this valuable
old act - •

MC. LORD ,CHANCELLOR. here rose 'and said,
strangers must withdraw. - •

•
A division then took place—.
For the Motion--Contents
Proxies 5l-15:5
Against the MAion-4on-onntents- 74
' • Proxies 52-126
Majority against fhe Marquii Wellesley's

.-- -
. .
. The House adjourned at Pour o'cloc.k this
.-. '
Morning.

HOUSE" OF COAMONS; WEDNESDAY.

The SPEAKER, .attsnded by the House, went
into the House of Peers, to hear• the Royal L
sent by Commission to a number of Bills ;for
which see the Lords.

Sir W. Cuicrts. presented a Petition from. the
Silk Manufacturers, relative .to the East India
trade, which was laid. on the table.

The India Ti an s fer Mill, and the Newfoundland,
Spirit Bill, we're severally read a third time, and
paSsed.

TOLERATION ACT.
Mr, WHITBREAD postponed his notice of mo=
tion on the subject of the Toleration Acts, which
stood for discussion this day, till Wednesday, the
Bth inst.

Some conversation arose between Mr. Parnell,
Mr. Pole, and Mr. M. Fitzgerald, upon the lris4
Butter Regulation Bill, after which the Bill
committed.

EXCISE BILL.
On the third reading of the Excise Bfll,