The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-01 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY EVENING, MARCH 1, 1849.

HOUSE OF LORDS.-(THIS DAY.)
The House sat again to-day, to hear Scotch appeals.
The Peers present were the Lord Chancellor, Lord
Elphinstone, and the Bishop of Hereford.
SONAR V. MACDONALD.
The arguments on this part-heard appeal from the
decision of the Court of Session in Scotland were con-
cluded to-day, and their Lordships reserved their
judgment.

bitants of King's County, attributing the present condition
of Ireland to the operation of the land tenure in that
country, and praying the House to pass some Act which
may give security to the tenure of land.
IRISH POOR-LAW ACT. _

Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL presented a petition from
the Roman Catholic clergy and ratepayers of Tuam is
Ireland, against what was sometimes called " The Beg-
gary Clause" in the Irish Poor-law Act, but commonly
known as the Quarter-acre Clause.
• CLEARANCE SYSTEM IN IRELAND.
The HON. GENTLEMAN also presented a petition from
the clergy and laity of the union of Tuam, deprecating
the injustice of fixing on the inhabitants of towns instead
of the landlord class the support of the poverty created
by the clearance system.
INTERNATIONAL ARBITRATION.

Mr. LUSHINGTON presented a petition from the
borough of Ashburton, praying the House to take
prompt and decisive measures to negotiate treaties
between the Government of this country and those of
the other countries in the world binding, them for the
future to the more humane cause of settling national dis-
putes by means of international arbitration.
PAYING CLERGYMEN OUT OF THE POOR-

dition of densely populated parts of the Empire could
have failed to observe the great want of proper paro.;
chial distribution, and the consequent difficulty of effi-
ciently carrying out efficient parochial government.
This was nut the case in other departments of the
State. In the common law, and courts of (qui,y,
when the business increased, additional judges
were appointed; and in the army, when occasion re-
quired, additional persons were enlisted; but this whole-
some rule had not been observed in the Church. Hence
the machinery was as defective as it was fifty years ago.
The main object of his motion was to render the Church
more efficient in its labours than at present, and more
worthy the appellation of the Church of the
country. Many of the parishes of the me
tropolis and in the large towns contained
100,000 souls. How could a rector efficiently exercise
his spiritual Junctions over.so large a number; how with
so large a number could any practical system be car-
ried out. He would merdy, mention half a dozen of
the most populous parishes in the country to show the
number of human beings confided to the care of the
rector of a single parish. The population of the pa-
rish of

Marylebone was ... 138,000
Liverpool ••• ••• ... 223,000
Stockport -•• ••• ... 84,000
Sheffield ••• ••• ... 111,000
Bradford ... ... 200,000
Manchester ... 353,000
St. Pancras 140,000
And he could mention many more equally as densely
populated. Almost all these places contained a popula •
Lion far exceeding that of many English counties.—
(Hear, hear.) how could, he asked, any practical
system be carried out in connexion with so large a num-
ber. The evil was twofold; first, with respect to the
practical system itself, and, secondly, with respect to the
inferior clergy who efticiated in these districts. Surely
a minister at the head of a parish should know the people
over whom he was placed; surely there should be a
constant interchange of good offices between them, for a
minister to transact his duty had not only to deal with
the spiritual but the secular interests of his flock; for it
was most important that the minister of a parish should
be enabled to relieve the wants of the suffering poor.
In many of the large parishes a minister was
scarcely knew except in vestry or in the pulpit. De
would mention but one instance in support of his
statement. The population of St. Pancras exceeded
140,000, and as several acres were being built upon,
the. population would be increased one half,
if not doubled. For instance, the population of
that parish exceeded that of many counties, since
the population of Westmoreland was but 56,000;
of Redford, 109,000 ; and of Hertford, 114,000.
Now, the church accommodation for those numbers
should be provided—taking the rate of provision to the
amount of one-third of the amount of population—
church accommodation fur 47,000. As it was, the
whole accommodation amounted to only 17,000. He
would state that the statement he had then made
in respect to the parish of St. Pancras, was accord •
ing to the condition in which it was two or three
years ago before the reforms were introduced by the
present vicar; but it was a very good exemplification
of the parish before the reforms were applied. Those
reforms have been only effected by those principles
which his proposition would endeavour to make
universal. But before that time the whole church
aceomodation amounted to only 17,0000. Thus
the House saw church accommodation for 51,000
at the rate of ls. 3d. had been made for 140,000. Now
take the number of clergymen officiating in that parish
at that time. The whole number of clergymen amounted
to 18. Upon the division of the parish to each of those
clergy men were assigned 8,000 souls. But it.
did so happen that the distribution was very.
unequal. It was nut that every clergyman had
the cure of 8,000 souls, but the distrebnoon
of the clergymen was very unequal, and it did so hap-
pen that to twelve of these clergy men were as-
signed 120,000 souls, or one clergyman for every
10,000 souls. It was impossible too highly to
praise the conscientious self-sacrifice made by Dr. Dale,
the vicar.— (Hear.) He determined to use all the power
which he possessed, when be first entered on the living,
to subdivide that great parish, notwithstanding he was
very much thwaited. Still, after all his exertions, a
vast proportion of that parish remained undivided.
Look at another fact that was warranted by
that want of sub-division. Take the great
parish of Saint Pancras, and see the number
of the children of tho Church of England schools. The
number of children amounted to 4,000. whereas under pro-
per organization, with reference to the proportion of other
children, found in other parishes, whether there aas an
effectual organization, the number should be at least
14,000, and in that he made due allowance for the
numbers usually educated by dissenters, and
be (Lord Ashley) could answer from personal know-
ledge and investigation, having been induced to examine
that parish with a view to the institution of
what were called ragged schools, that there
were 20,000 children who went to no place of worship
whatever. But Dr. Dale, by making that subdivision,
imperfect and inadequate as it was, had so far suc-
ceeded that he had opened schools giving accom-
modation fur 6,000 children, in addition to what existed
before. He held that, in every respect, the case of St.
Pancras proved the necessity of sub-division, and that
that subdivision could take place only on the application
of the principle for which he contended. Dr. Dale, in a
letter which he had written to the Churchwarden of St,
Pancras, said " there was no union between
the clergymen and the parishioners; a great many
of the labouring population had altogether
abandoned attendance on public worship."—(Hear.)
Dr. Dale said further—" The ordinances of the
Church have to a great extent fallen into disuo-
tude, and the consequence is that a great num-
ber of parents feel no interest in the moral
and religious instruction of their children." The con-
sequence was, that we had scattered about London a
great number of proprietary Church schools.
Every man must give credit to the groat
good whifeh had been done by those proprietary churches;
but they were not the churches which he (Lord
Ashley) wished to see in this country.—(bear,
hear.) It would be found that none but persons
of easy and affluent circumstances were seen in the
churches, and that a great portion of the working
classes attended no place of worship at all, or went to
such places, where the complete distinction of classes that
was kept up, served only to hurt and repulse reasen.
Now, there was another view of the matter which re-
quired serious consideration, and that was the position
held by the inferior clergy, as respected the country at
large. He must say that their position was not only
disagreeable in itself, but also one riot et all calculated to
to elevate them in the eyes of the country. They
had to a certain extent, and in the same respects
to their inferiors, the power of the bishops. But
in other respects they had the responsibility
without the power. He thought that their position was
such that, both for their own sakes and that of the
church, the sooner it was done away with
the better, and the sooner, further, that the
number of these irresponsible clergy should be
greatly reduced. He had received a number
of communications, complaining of the position of the
curates in the several parts of the country, stating that
they were unable to fulfil their respective duties in some
instances, and in others that they had no vicars whatever.
to whom they were responsible. Now, he had said that
it was indispensably necessary for the welfare of the
clergy themselves. Let any person go into any of those
large parishes and he would immediately see that nothing
was more glaring than the discussions in the respective
conditions of the clergy in these several places. In
In some parishes the labours were ten times in
amount as compared with those of others. On
this subject he had received a great many
letters from different parts of the country, from
three or four of which he would read extracts, in
proof of the position which he had advanced. The Noble
Lord then read extracts from letters from different ports
of the country, complaining deeply of the responsibility
imposed upon the writers, and the obstructions thrown
in their way, and stating the. utter impossibility of fah
filling their responsibilities whilst the circum-
stances of their parishes remained as they at present
were. One clergyman in Lancashire wrote to say that
he had under his
personal superintendence parishes
which collectively contained no less than 200,000 inha-
bitants; another had upwards of 175,000 people under
his charge, and certainly if they desired to ad.
vance the interests of the Church they would
alter this state of things. A memorial had been
presented a memorial to the Arch bishop of York, and he
believed also, that his Noble Friend at the head of the
Government, complaining
of the utter inadequacy of
those who signed it to fulfil their duties. Some of those
clergymen had as many as 12,000 and othe a as
many as 14,000 souls to attend to. It was manifestly
evident that this system could not continue, and that if
the Church was to continue that instrument for
i
the public welfare which t was designed to
be, some changes must immediately be made,
Another person wrote to him and stated
.that no person
could be married at his church without paying double fees,
and that church was not situate three miles from the place
he then was. The Noble Lord then referred to several
other letters he had received from clergymen, complain-
ing of the restrictions that were placed upon them
in the performance of their duties, and stating
that these restrictions totally prevented them
from the proper exercise of their duties. Ise
propose to appoint a Commission, for the purpose. of
considering the sub-division of these matters, feeling
convinced that if such sub-division should take place
they would not only remedy all that was complained of
but gaue great satisfaction to a great body of the people.
The parish of Bethnal-green bad been subdivided, arid
' the best results had followed. There had also been a
subdivision in the parish of Chelsea, it
but had caused
no diminution in the rector's salary, nor had it left the
parts divided without sufficient means to carry out all re-
ligious and cnaritable purposes. So far from. that, the rec-
tor finding the Population increasing.:wr!hfdd to have the
parishes further divided • and believed if it were so that
the moral and religious Condition of the people would be
butter attended to. The parish of St.
w Dunstan's
was within the limit he suggested ; its popula-
tion was 3,400, and it as not without its share of poor
population. It was only a quarter of a mile in diameter,
and in consequence of that most of the inhabitants
were known to each other, and the rector !ind his curate
were acquainted with every human being within it, it was
impossible that any of those frightful cases of destitution
cnuld prevail in that parish which were to be witnessed
in, the large parishes of Shoreditch, Mart lebone, an,;,
Pancras. If the parochial system suege,ted
were carried out in all great towns lie believed
that the mendicant and vagrant class, which had a
distinct natural history of its own, would be
almost entirely done away with. He would
suggest that a Commission should be appointed to in-
quireinto the best plan that could be adopted
to carry out the object he had in view.
He could not understand why anY objections could

be urged to his motion, since they did not
tisk, but repudiated any advance of pub-
lic money for such a purpose. Funds, he be-
lieved,mwheeieththhue exlopoekneseds owfersemaltlo betnh'e.ficeexsi
would be found in the present districts to
sting
revenues,funds to
to the result of the inquiry into the revenues
of church lands, the funds of which might be made
available to this purpose; but, above all, he looked
to the munificence of the Church, which had not yet
been fully tented.—Hear, hear.)—More especially
did ho expect much from this munificence, if
the efforts were properly localised, and the expenditure
of the money was clearly shown. As a proof that they had
not tested the munificence of the Church. the
case of Bethnal• green was a remarkable, in-
stance, as in that miserable district sufficient
money had been raised by a benevolent
gentlemen to raise and endow 10 churches. Again the
Archbishop of Canterbury had stated in a recent
charge, that during the time he was connected with
the diocese of Chester, he had consecrated more
churches than had been consecrated during the
last century. He considered the addition of 500 clergymen
would meet all the exigencies of the case, for whom 3001.
each, or 15,000/. in all, would be required,
which he did not think too much to seek from
the patriotic people of the Church of England.
The Noble Lord concluded by moving the Address to
her Majesty of which he had gived notice.
The motion having been seconded,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL had listened with the deepest
interest to the statement of the Noble Lord, and he felt
convinced that the sub-divhions he proposed would
lead to the best results. His Noble Friend
had stated that he required no public grant for
carrying out his proposition, but that it should be left
to the friends of the Church itself. He believed that
the Church had ample funds for ti e purpose.
—(Hear, hear.) It was gratifying to find how the
efforts that had been made by the bishops of diffe-
rent dioceses had bean responded to for the
erection of additional churches in their dioceses.
He was disposed to think that the subdivision could not
be carried to the extent which his Noble Friend
expected. He, therefore, did not feel it necessary
to trespass longer on the attention of the House;
but he could not sit down without saying
that there was no member of the Church of
England, or no person who had diessented
from that Church, who could feel otherwise than greatly
indebted to the Noble Lord for the exertions he had
made in bringing this subject before the House.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUME denied that the building and planting
of church( a in the Metropolis, or throughout
the country would remove the difficulties which the
Noble Lord deplored, and which he now sought to
remedy.

[LEFT. SPEAKING.]

THE COUNTRY MARKETS.

Lit/moot, MAncit I.—Messrs. Robinson and Co.'s circu-
lar states, since our last monthly circular, we have to report an
extensive business, which is likely to continue, as the manufac-
turers are well employed in making goods to order, both for the
home trade and foreign markets ; this fact having been proved
from the consumption going forward, operated in raising prices
considerably higher, and there is every prospect of the present
quotations being supported. Complaints have been made
hitherto, that the consumers cannot obtain an advance on goods
equal to that on the raw material ; but we entertain no doubt,
but in a short time they will be remunerated : all admit stocks
to be much reduced, and wool still low in price; these circum-
stances, combined with the general consumption, are reasons we
deem sufficient for being so hopeful. By private treaty, the
largest transactions have been in Peruvian washed and un-
washed ; several thousand bags have been taken for export,
speculation, and by manufacturers, at advanced rates ; a few
parcels of Syrian, Russian, Buenos Ayres, low Oporto, East
India, and Alpaca have found buyers. There were public sales
held here on the 21st ultimo, consisting of upwards of 1,000
hales East India, which brought together a full attendance of
the trade; the competition was animated throughout, and the
whole was disposed of at an improvement on the immediate
prices current, of fully Ihd per lb on the average, and in some
instances more. Scotch :—Cheviot, Laid and White High-
land, keep in request; the mark et is barely supplied, which
limits its sales. In Irish, a few parcels are announced ; spin-
ners purchase sparingly at the enhanced value. The series of
public sales in London, that commenced on the 7th and termi-
nated on the 24th ult., were more numerously attended than
any previous sales ;:upwards of 20,000 bales were cleared, at an
advance on fine wool of 3d. per lb, and on coarse kinds of 1,4 d
to ld per lb. Oil—A fair demand has been done during the
month, the demand is more curtailed, and sales are reported
under the quotations.
BELFAST, FEB. 26.—Grain—Since Friday the supplies
have been small, and at this morning's market prices were
well supported, except in oatmeal, which was 2d lower.
Wheat 9s 6d to 10s 6d ; barley 5s to 6s 6d; oats 5s 6d to 6s 6d ;
and oatmeal 9s 9d to 104 4d per cwt. Indian Corn is in mode-
rate demand at former rates. Yellow 71 10s to 71 15s ; white
715 s to 71 lOs per ton. Pork sells freely at Friday's prices—
say 40s to 41is per 1201bs.

COAL MARKET
Bate's West Hartley 14s Gd
Buddle's W. Hartley 14s 9d
Chester Main l3s 9d!
Davison's West Hartley 14s 9d
Holywell Main l4s
North Percy Hartley.. 14s Oct
Ord's Redheugh
Townley l3s Od
Walker's Primrose
West Hartley
Wall's End, &c. _ _

.-YSSTEEDAY.

Lambton Primrose l6s Od
Hetton
Haswell l7s Od
Lambton
Lyons l6s Od
Stewart's
Shotten
Whitwell
Benson
Hartlepool l6s 9d
Thornley
Trimdon ... 14s 3d
Adelaide Tees
Seymour Tees
Tees ........... 16s Gd
DerwentwsterHartley 14s 6,1
Howard's W. H. Neth. 14s 9d
Ships at market, 209.

Acorn Close
Brown's Gas
Framw ell Gate ...... 15s Od
Hotspur
Hedley
Killingworth l4s 9d
Riddell's l4s 9d
Eden Main l6s Od

THE RA TL IN AID.
(From the Cork Examiner.)
Lord John Russell's resolution, which fixes on the whole
land of Ireland a rate of 6d. in the pound for two years
to come, was carried in committee on Tuesday. It
will be the law of the land in a few days. The first
report of the committee will, of course, recommend
such a proceeding, and the principle will then be
carried out in resolutions of the House, or in a Bill pre-
pared for the purpose. Lord John Russell rules this
committee with a high hand. I❑ fact, they are only a
body for registering his edicts—passing his resolutions.
As to its being a deliberative assembly, we have no faith
in such a doctrine. We mention this merely to show
that the landlords, as a body, aro utterly powerless with
the men now in office, and that whatever changes, or
amendments if you will, of the poor-law, shall be effected,
those changes or amendments, will not be the result of the
suggestions or deliberations of the landlords of Ireland.
It would be out of the way to attempt upholding this
6d. rate in aid, for national purposes, on any fixed prin-
ciples of equity. The necessity is the great justifying
cause for its adoption. And when we admit this neces-
sity to exist, in full and stringent force, all other argu-
ments are beside the question. If we admit that it is
the land of Ireland which must support the poor of Ire-
land, any modifications of this large truth cannot hurt
the principle. It was absurd to be drawing a line of
demarcation round the north, and segregating this pro-
vince, morally, politically, and religiously, from the other
provinces of Ireland. It was dividing the country
in twain, and giving separate interests, and separate no-
tions of prosperity and freedom to each. This, on the
face of it, was absurd. It was as if Yorkshire and De-
vonsihire took it into their heads to be antagonistic to
each other. When we are told then of the North, or
rather of Ulster and Leinster, being up in fierce indig-
nation against this rate in aid, we must designate it as
more than folly; the poor of Ireland call imperatively on
the proprietors of the soil of the island to see that they
shall not die of hunger, and the British Minister and
British law will only laugh at the unavailing opposition,
when they have the power of decreeing. How can this
be otherwise, when most of the unions in the west and
south are bankrupt, from having past through three
years of death of famine?
The substance of Lord John Russell's resolution, car-
ried by a majority of 17 to 7, after a long discussion, is
as follows:
•` That a rate of 6d. in the pound be struck imme-
diately in every electoral division in Ireland—the pro-
ceeds to be placed at the disposal of the Poor-law Com-
missioners, for the purposes to be hereinafter men-
tioned."
The correspondent of the Freeman says that—
Some of the Irish popular Members (Mr. Fagan, I
understand, among the number), who are really anxious
to have the best possible amendments introduced into
the Poor-law Act, voted with the Government, because
they considered that the delay certain to come from the
examination of witnesses on the entire question of
rating, would prove most injurious to the interests of
the poor."
At the meeting, Mr. Reynolds moved that the vote in
aid should include a tax on all property in Ireland—that
of mortgagees and annuitants not excepted.
Lord John Russell said it might be a subject for con-
sideration whether annuitants should not be taxed; but
he thought no such rate as that contemplated could be
levied off mortgagees.
Sir Robert Fergusson submitted a proposition that a
tax of sevenpence in the pound on all property ought to
constitute the rate in aid. lle thought this would be a
fair way to meet the question.
The resolution was not pressed, and the Committee
adjourned to Friday next.
The following are the names of the seven Members
who voted in the minority on the division which took
place in the Committee on Lord John Russell's reso-
lution, mentioned above :—Messrs. Bright, Monsell.
Adair, Stafford, Sir D. Norrey, Blackall, and O'Flaherty,

VISIT OF THE PRINCE OF ORANGE TO LlTER-
POOL.—Yesterday afternoon his Royal Highness the
Prince of Orange Nassau (King of the Netherlands)
arrived at the Adelphi Hotel, accompanied by Admiral
Arriens, Sir Henry Johnstone, Bart., and Captain Ju-
dicher, who formed his suite. llis Royal Highnt as and
party were entertained at oinner at the Town Hail last
night by his worship the Mayor. The mayor's carriage
was in attendance at the Adelphi to convey his Royal
Highness to the Town Hall, where ho was met by his
Worship. Amongst the guests present who had been
invited by his Worship to meet his Royal Highness and
his suite, were the EJrl of Yarborough, the Hon. C. W.
G. Howard, the Hon. Coluael Lowther, J. Willinck,
E.q. (Dutch consul), J. Marshall, Esq.. Mayor 01 Stock-
port; Major-General Sir Williatn Warre. Lieutenant-
Colonel Garrett. Captain Pennell, RN., J. A. Tint)°,
Esq., E. Marsland, Esq., R. M. Cooper. E.q , J. B.
Lloyd, Esq., T. S. May, Esq., &e. We believe that the
Mayor will have the hen. ur of conducting his Roj al
Highness and suite to the steeple chase at Aintree to-
day.--Liverpool Courier of yesterday.
REDUCTION IN THE ARMY.—The names of about
300 soldi, rs were returned to the Horse Guards, for
discharge from the regiment in Cork garrison. It is,
however, understood that a letter has been received in-
timating that,at present compliance with the order direct-
ing discharge would not be required.

IMPERIAL P ARLIAMENT.

ROUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 27.
IRISH POOR-LAW.
The following is a fuller report of the debate on the
Irish Poor-law than we were enabled to give in our
Third Edition of Tuesday] :
Lord STANLEY then rose, in pursuance of a notice
which he had given privately to the Marquis of Lans-
downe yesterday, to ask that Noble Marquis to explain
the course intended to be pursued by the Government
with respect to the amendment of the Irish poor-law,
and to reconcile the discrepancy which, to his (Lord
Stanley'a) mind appeared irreconcilable, between the lan-
guage and conduct which the Noble Marquis had used
in that House and the language and conduct which the
First Lord of the Treasury had used in the other House
of Parliament, as to the course which the Government
intended to pursue upon a question on which no diffe-
rence of opinion ought to exist in the cabinet. In order
to place himself in order in the House, he would move
that a messages be sent to the House of Commons' re
questinas it to communicate to their Lordships the firstreport ofb their Select Committee on the Irish poor-laws.
He cared little whether the motion was granted or nega-
tived, for, in point of fact, he had that report already,
and merely made his motion as a matter of form. It
would be in the recollection of their Lordships that at
the commencement of the session, when the Noble Mar-
quis opposite moved for the appointment of a Select
Committee to take into consideration the subject of the
Irish poor-laws, he had taken the liberty of presenting
to their Lordships his objections to that motion, although,
in deference to the opinion of some of his Noble Friends,
who thought that inquiry might be useful, he had ab-
stained from giving any decided opposition to it. But he
had then stated that it appeared to him that the Go-
vernment was going to place itself in a dilemma, from
which it could by no possibility escape. Either Govet
went had mado up its mind as to the course to be pur-
sued—in which case there was no necessity for inquiry
—or it had not ; and, if it had not, it was preparing to
throw upon the Committee the responsibility of doing
that which it ought to be prepared to do itself. He con-
fessed that he had not anticipated that her Majesty's
Government would have had sufficient ingenuity
to place itself on both horns of that dilemma ;
and yet, if he ware not strangely misinformed,
it had succeeded admirably in placing itself in that un-
fortunate position. A Select Committee, he repeated,
had been appointed in both Houses of Parliament, and
that, too, with similar intentions and objects, namely,
to institute further inquiry into the operation of the
Irish poor-law, because it was desirable to produce
certain facts for public information, and to obtain the
advice of both Committees on those facts before Govt rn-
meat proposed any measure of improvement and reform.
At any rate, it was with that view that their Lordships
had appointed a Select Committee, and that that Coin-
mittee had taken evidence—even the evidence of the
Commissioners engaged in the administration of the
poor-law in Ireland. The Noble Marquis had, as he
(Lord Stanley) thought, correctly and properly laid
before that Committee certain resolutions, to which he
declined pledging himself, which he described as sug-
gestions upon which the Government had come to no
positive conclusion, but which related to various sub-
jects connected with the Irish poor-law, and on
which he stated that it was fitting that full information
should be received in order to guide the deliberations
and decisions of her Majesty's Ministers. That appeared
to him (Lord S anley) to be a proper and a reasonable
course; but he was surprised to learn that a different
course had been pursued in the Committee of the House
of Commons, although it had been selected and consti-
tuted, and was to a certain extent controlled by her Mu.
jesty's Government. When that Committee met, reso-
lutions similar to those which had been laid upon the
table of their Lordship's Committee, were moved by
the First Lord of the Treasury, who was at the head of
it, as the Noble Marquis opposite was at tie head of
their Lordship's Comieittee. Those resolutions were,
however, moved in a very different sense, and with a
very different explanation, from that with which they
had been moved among their Lordships. So far front its
having been stated that they related to a matter on which
the Cabinet had not made up its mind, and on which it was
desirable that the Commitiee should obtain information,
it was declared by the first Lord of the Treasure that
they had been submitted to the Cabinet, and that the
Cabinet was pledged to support them; that they con
tained the plan of the Government; and that, if they
were not adopted by the Committee, they would be sub-
mitted to Parliament on the responsibility of Ministers.
The next step taken in that Committee was the proposi-
tion of a motion by certain Members not connected with
the Government that on those resolutions so submitted
to them evidence should be taken—a course which was
perfectly in accordance with that adopted by their Lord-
ships. Their Lordships would hardly credit the fact, that
that proposition, so strictly in conformity with that sanc-
tioned by their Lordship, was negatived by the Go-
vernment in the Committee of the House of Commons;
the First Lord of the Treasury taking the initiative in
declaring that Ministers had determined that no change
should take place in, and that no evidence should be
heard upon, those resolutions. From a minute of
that division, it appeared that the First Lord
of the Treasury, the Under Secretary of the Treasury,
and the Secretary for Ireland, had all voted in the ma-
jority; and it was subsequently decided that Govern-
ment should bring in its first iesolution on its own re-
sponsibility. Now, mark the inconsistency. In the
Committee of the House of Commons the leader of the
Government declared that the Government was
pledged to the resolutions. In the Committee
of the House of Lords the leader declared
that it was not. In the Committee of the
House of Lords it was held to be a itting course to hear
evidence; in the Committee of the House, of commons
the Hirst Lord of the Treasury negatived that course,
and passed his first resolution without producing a single
tittle of evidence; nay, more, he had had that resolution
reported to the House of Commons, had obtained its pre-
sentation as the first report of its elect Committee, and
had himself given notice, that on Thursday next he
would move for a Committee of the whole House, to
take into consideration that single resolution, with a
view of founding upon it a distinct legislative measure
on that grand question, upon which their Lordships
were just commencing to take evidence. There
was a degree of inconsistency in the course pursued in
tke one and the other Houses of Parliament which it
was impossible for him to reconcile with the respect
which was due to their Lordships, to the House of Com-
mons, or even to the Noble Marquis opposite—an incon-
sistency which was incompatible with the steady course
of administration, for how could government be steadily
carried on when language so different was addressed to
the different branches of the Legislature? It was not
for him at that moment to discuss whether that resolu-
tion, so passed at the instigation of the Government, and
without any evidence, was correct or not; but he must
say that it was a conclusion which touched on a most im-
portant point—namely, the question of a rate in aid to be
levied on the solvent for the benefit of the in-
solvent parishes, unions, and districts of Ireland.
He hoped that he might be permitted to say
ono word—for he had some personal interest in
the matter—as to the share which he was supposed
to have had in it; for he had been told that the
main proposition then before the House of Commons
had emanated from him.—(The Marquis of Lansdowne
—" No, no.") He was sure that the Noble Marquis op-
posite would instantly disclaim such an imputation be-
fore their Lordships. What he had said, speaking on
behalf of himself and some other landed proprietors in
Ireland was this—that provided they could obtain such
a subdivision of districts in Ireland as would make
them responsible for their own properties, and their own
properties alone, and as would free them from all
responsibility for the property of others—provided that
Government would remove from the districts which
were pauperised the control of guardians who had
proved themselves inefficient—provided also, the Go•
vernment would consent that any sum which might be
required from them as a rate in aid should be con-
sidered as a loan, repayable by the less fortunate district
in more prosperous times—subject to all these provisoes,
ho and they would be ready to pay an insurance on their
properties as a rate in aid to an extent not exceeding
is. in the pound. Now, the proposition which the
Government had brought forward was the superstruc-
ture which he had proposed to raise, but without the
foundation on which he had intended to rest its basis;
and it was a little too bad, under such circumstances,
that he should be held up as the wiseacre who had pro-
pounded it. With regard to the question of a rate in
aid, he would at once declare that it was not his inten-
tion to discuss it now. It was a question which ought
to be approached with calmness, deliberation, and for-
bearance. He hoped that the proposal for ;,raising it
would not be treated as a separate question unconnected
with other considerations; for, if it were so treated, so
far should he be from blaming, that he should even par-
ticipate in the feelings of those who urged its instanta-
neous and absolute rejection. The whole question of the
Irish poor. law should be approached at once; and the
House ought not to be called on to consent to single pro-
positions distinct from and unconnected with each other.
He hoped that this measure, when it was brought
forward, would not be made the subject of mutual
recriminations between Noble Lords and Members of
Parliament connected with England and Ireland respec-
tively. He hoped that the Irish party would not say
that Ireland was a part of the united empire, and that
the rate in aid ought to be paid out of the imperial funds;
he hoped, he said, that such an argument would not be
brought forward; for, though he could wish to see Eng-
land ;and Ireland treated as one country both with re-
spect to taxation and legislation, unquestionably they
were not treated so at present; and it was not fair that
Irish proprietors, who claimed exemption from the in-
come-tax and the assessed taxes, as members of a dis-
tinct nation, should, on the one hand, obtain the advari-
tags of their separate position, and should, on the other,
claim a community of interest by throwing a community
of burdens on this country. He therefore hoped that we
should have no exaggerated pretensions raised by Irish
proprietors to escape contribution to Irish distress. On
the other hand, he hoped that English Peers and Members
of Parliament would not be so led away by their im-
patience of taxation for Irish purposes as to seek for
tiny mode, without reference to its justice, of escaping
from the duty of giving aid to Ireland. In conclusion,
he suggested to the Noble Marquis opposite the pro-
priety either of discharging the Committee of their
Lordships from further useless and idle investigation into
this subject, or of postponing. in the other House of
Parliament, the consideration of the imposition of a rate
iu aid in Ireland until teeth Houses had satisfied them
selves as to the nature of the whole measure her eat ter to
be submitted to the deliberation or Parliament.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE perfectly under-
stood that the Noble Lord opposite, in submitting his
present motion to the Hi use, hart merely done so to en-
able himself to put a question to the Government, to
which he would endeavour to give an explicit
answer. The Noble Baron would at once perceive
that, as his questions related not merely to proceedings
in that and the other House of Parliament, but also to
proceedings in Committees of them both—the Noble