The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-20 00:00:00

it had been already asserted, that there should be an ex-
pression of opinion on the part of those favourable to the
measure, the signer of the circular wished the parson
to whom it was address: d to get signatures without
delay to a petition in favour of the scheme ; so that
every parson in a village was to become a petition agent
for the Government—it went on, to a petition. one
which is sent"—sent all cut and dried from the Privy
Council no doubt (Laughter)—" the petition must be
written on parchment, and one or more names must be
written on the body of it."—(Continued laughter.) If
this was not done, no doubt his Honourable
Friend who was on the printing Committee,
would not allow it to be printed. It went on, "As
they must be sent in before the 17th, no time is to be
lost ; and they may be either sent to me pre-paid—
(Laughter)—(thatwas a most material point in the mat-
ter, they were all pre-paid at the parcel office), or to the
Right Hon. Lord J. Russell, M.P.—(Roars of laughter)
—l3, Chesham-place, who has kindly promised to take
charge of them.—(Continued laughter.) (Signed) H
Hughes, Gordon-square, Incumbent of All Saints." He
(Mr. buncombe) imagined that he would not be long
allowed to remain an incumbent, and that he would be
promoted to a bishopric.—(Hear, hear.) Then came
the postscript, which, as in all letters, was the most
important part of the document. " I have authority to
state, that the authorised Scriptures must be read daily
in all the schools receiving aid from the State."—(Hear.)
I'he Noble Lord had told them of the destitute condi-
tion of the different classes of the community as far as
regarded educatiou. Why then had he not taken any
notice of the Roman Catholic whom he was about to
exclude. He held in his hand a statement taken from
the " Catholic Directory of 1846," where it was stated,
that there were in the different districts of London,
65,307 Roman Catholics, poor persons requiring gratui-
tous education ; and that out of these there are only
30,207 who receive it. He should like to know why
these other 30,207 unfortunates had not attracted the
Noble Lord's attention; but was this the only exclusion?
was this the only compromise which had taken place?
What did the House think of the Wesleyan compromise,
also made at the expense of the Roman Catholics? He
would read an accurate statement of what had occurred
—stated in a letter to him from a private gentleman, "I
need hardly say, although a Protestant, that I feel the
conduct of the Government towards the Roman Catholics

to be peculiarly base.—(Hear.) The dissenters, as well
as churchmen, owe you a debt of gratitude for the notice
which you have given them." The following was a history
of the Wesleyan compromise :—About a fortnight
since, the Secretary of the Wesleyan Society called a
meeting for the purpose of forming certain resolutions,
which had been agreed upon at a previous meeting.
Before they entered upon business, they were informed
that Lord Ashley was in waiting—he was admitted, and
stated himself to be commissioned by the Government
to negotiate with them, in order to buy off their oppo-
sition to the Government plan.—(Hear. hear.) Lord
Ashley stated that the Roman Catholic Schools would
be excepted from the benefits to be conferred
by this Bill ; an object which would be very
grateful to the Wesleyans. The meeting came to
no conclusion, and it was adjourned to Manchester, to
take the opinion of some of its members engaged in the
manufacturing districts. The Wesleyans met on the
9th of April, and again on the 14th instant. The state-
ment that the Bill had for its express purposes the ex-
clusion of the Roman Catholics had its desired object.
The claims of the Catholics were to be consi-
dered in another minute, and the Wesleyans
were not to be prejudiced from offering it any
opposition they might think fit. It was also agreed
that no person in holy orders should be admitted a
master of a school, a provision made for the express
purpose of defeating a proposition of the Bishop of
Exeter.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. MACAULAY.—This is all a romance.
Mr. DUNCOMBE.—WiII the Right Hon. Gentleman
say that Catholics are not to be excluded? If be does,
I will admit the romance. The Hon. Gentleman then
proceeded : He had received a letter from Leeds con-
taining the resolutions which had been adopted at a
meeting there of the Roman Catholics. Those resolu-
tions he trusted would find an echo in the breast of every
member in that House. " The Committee has read
with astonishment the reply of Lord John Russell re-
specting the additional grant for the purposes of
education." " The Government, in order to ap-
pease sectarian intolerance and clamour, were pre-
pared to deprive them of the united benefit of
a fund to which they equally contributed." And
that they could not but look with contempt and resent-
ment upon a Ministry who were about to create a new
Bill of disabilities on their Roman Catholic subjects.
Now there was no romance in all thie, it was unfortu-
nately a reality.—(Hear, hear.) But he would ask the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh, who
said that this was a tomance, when he was opposing
Lord Stanley's motion for the revocation of these
minutes, whether he understood that they were exclu-
sive to Roman Catholics? He would ask the same ques-
tion of his Noble Friend the Member for the West
Riding of Yorkshire? If he did, his speech was
most belied, and most misreported. Lord Stanley
stated that the Scriptures were to be read
daily as a part of the national system.
He said that it had been objected to:the former scheme
that it was impracticable to unite so many different per-
sons of different religious opinions. Lord Morpeth
asked, was it right or proper to exclude their dissenting
brethren ? " He had no high opinion of many Roman
Catholic doctrines---of the Unitarians he had his own
opinions—but as long as they employed Roman Catholics,
and as long as they fingered Unitarian gold, they could
not refuse to share their privileges, or exclude them
from benefits to which they equally contributed. Now
he (Mr. Duncombe) could not conceive that there could
be anything so clear as what were the intentions of her
Majesty's Ministers, and he could not help thinking
that this was base trickery to buy off the opposition of
some to this new measure. These sentiments of , the
Noble Lord were applauded by Lord John Russell, Mr.
O'Connell, Mr. Hawes, and others.—(Hear, hear.) He
hoped and trusted that there would be found a sufficient
spirit in that House not to vote away any of the public
money unless the public were equally benefited.—(Hear.)
Lord Morpeth in a subsequent
speech
said that " he
would be ashamed if he did not think that every man
in the country—be he Churchman or Dissenter—was
of the Governtnen
equally entitled to the supportt He
making the
found the Churchfirst great claim
country; upon the property of the but the
Church itself ought to be ea gr obliged to
Dissenters, for the example which -thy e had set her.—
Nheers.) That was the Noble Lord's
in 1842'
He should like to know, would they have attempted this
exclusivism had Mr. O'Conne II been in that House ? He
believed nut. He would n the Right Hon.
ot believe that
Gentleman the Member for Dungarvon would go out on
the same lobby with the Noble Lord, he would not be-
lieve that he would be a party to
stigma
pains and disabilities, and throw
a on his religion.
The Noble Lord had said probable
nothing about the
cost of the scheme. Ile would ask any man—any
gentleman in that house if hecould within half a
million of money what say _
would be the cost of this scheme
ten years hence.
Mr. MACAULAY.—One penny per head.
Mr. DUNCOMBE.—Th 100 000/
ey only called fet 7 •
this year, but they were laying the foundation of a
scheme which according to the calculations which others
had made, and which they had not proved to be wrong,
would cost in two years hence nearly two millions.
How was that money to be got to support the expenses
of the alterations which were to made under these
minutes which had been laid on the table of both
Houses of Parliament. Me objected to the unconstitu-
tional character of this Committee of the Privy Council,
and he did not think that h t ere was anything in the
manner in which these minutes had been laid on the
table to entitle the Committee of Privy Council to the
confidence of the country.—(Hear, hear.)—When the
minutes were laid upon the table of the House by
Lord Lansdowne, nothing was said as to their nature
and character. It was argued in the Privy
Council, and then laid on the table of both
Houses without any prefatory remarks, for they did not
appear likely to lead to any confusion to require the
sanction of the House of Lords. It did not require that
in order to give effect to any Bill that the consent of the
House of Commons should be given. In the view of "E.
Privy Council, "the President of the Privy Council had
only to take the minutes to the Lords and Commons,
and there let them digest them if they could. It was a
great condescension on the part of the president to say
anything at all about them. Let the people pay their
money and be grateful. Such was the opinion of this
secret tribunal. If they looked at the minutes them-
selves, they would find that they were objectionable, not
only on the ground of cost, but also as a general scheme.
He had said that it would not accomplish that
which it professed to attain. It would create
undue influence, increase the power of the
Crown, and the patronage of the Government.
It appears that these minutes were thought of and framed
on the 20th of August last, when some general minutes
were agreed upon, and the President of the Council re-
tired for four months until be could prepare a farther set
of minutes for the regulation of education, pupil teachers,
and stipendiary monitors. He must say that, looking at
the minutes altogether, independently of their unconsti-
tutional character—for he thought that never was such
a piece of quackery put together as the whole of these
minutes. Talk of Professor Ady and Morison's pills, give
him Dr. Kay Shuttleworth's resolutions.—(Laughter.)
This measure was absurd to all practical working men, and
more particularly in that portion which referred to the
workshops and industrial schools—it was the laughing
stock of the country. There were pupil teachers, ap-
prenticed pupil teachers, who had a five year's appren-
ticeship to undergo. The Privy Council ought
certainly to be called inquisitors in this in-
stance, for the education of the children would
be assigned to inspectors appointed by the Privy Coun-
cil. There was not much difference in the course of
examination between the boys and girls, except the girls
d to be versed in the geography of
only being require
the British Empire. The girls were not required to
proceed beyond " Compound Proportion "
In figures.
Now such a thing was really preposterous—those who
were to be their future kitchen-maids :and house-maids,
are to be crammed by the compound proportion of the
parochial clergyman.—
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) In
the third year the examination differed but little from
that of the first ; and, in the fouth year, they required
a knowledge of vocal music and drawing, especially
from models. This was not absolutely required, because
the means of teaching it might not exist in every school.
The Right Hon. Gentleman would say that it was easy
to have models for every school, according to the pre-
sent " Poses Plastiques."—(Laughter.) The work-
ing men had a strong sense of the injury which
they would inflict upon themselves by supporting
this measure.—(Hear, bear.) It would have the
effect of excluding the rural districts entirely from
the benefits of the scheme, for they required, before a
grant of any sum was made, that twice the sum should
be raised by contributions, so that for a grant of 201.,
401. would be thus raised, besides a house rent free,
which would make 60/. In some places not 15/. or 201.

could be raised for the education of obildren, so that in
many of the rural districts there would be no benefit
given, and the district would be compelled to pay its
share of the maintenance of other schools. The proposal
with regard to the industrial schools must necessarily be
an injury to the honest artisan. The produce of these
schools must be sold in the same market as the produce
of the skilled artisan, and at a lower price, as coming
from an establishment of which the Government bore the
expense, so that the trades, already down to
the level of merely a subsistence, would be
still more seriously injured. How was a man
having to pay rent and taxes, and find his own
tools, to compete with those who were supported by the
Government? Besides, it was known to be impossible to
teach any of these trades thoroughly without a regular
apprenticeship far different from that which these per-
sons would receive in the Government establishments.
The working classes bad already seen the mischievous
effects of the measure; they had rejected all the attempts
of the Government to cajole or bribe them by specious
promises of provision for their children. At a meeting
at Birmingham, lately, it was rejected by a majority of
152, showing the determination of the working classes
to permit the interference of the Privy Council. But
they never would submit that they should not combine
for the purpose of protecting themselves. The working
men were not so ignorant as they had been represented,
and knowing from experience how their funds had
hitherto been exhausted in strikes and contests, they had
resolved to act in a different manner in future. They
had now a national combination of trades, and instead of
expending their funds in a foolish and useless manner,
they now expended them in furnishing the raw material
of their respective trades, and in reproductive labour, in
order to elevate the condition of their order. This was
a new principle of action and highly creditable to the
working classes. It was only last week that at Notting-
ham where the frame-workers who were Members of
the national union, had succeded in preventing 80 abate-
ments in the prices paid, on account of their belonging
to the association. The working classes of that town
were now getting their own frames and carrying
on work on their own account. Referring to
the pamphlet of Dr. Shuttleworth ; he could not see
why the Government should have sanctioned the gross
libel which he found contained in page 20 of the
"Minutes of Education." He stated there that the
object of the Dissenters in their opposition was to
advance the interests of particular sects. Now, what he
(Mr. Duncombe) wanted to know was, what objections
could there be to the motion of which he had given
notice ? It had been said by the Noble Lord at the
head of the Government, that it was a vote of censure,
though he (Mr. Duncombe) did not consider it as such ;
but if the Noble Lord would have it so, let it be taken as
such, as it involved a principle which he considered a
just one. He for one could not consent to the patronage
which was to be conferred on a self-elected body ; and
the increased power which it gave to the Crown. Already
the patronage of the Government had been too
much increased. Let them look to the in-
creased patronage given them by the railway
board. The local Small Debt Courts had also
increased their patronage very much. The judges
which were created, and were to be created, under that
Act, would cause a vast accession to their patronage.
It was thus increased to an enormous extent. The new
Board of Health proposed under the Bill just introduced
would give the Ministry more patronage ; and there
were also to be four new Bishops, without seats, ap.
pointed. These Bishops wero to be without seats, but
they were to occupy the vacancies as they occurred. In
addition to this, there was now proposed these pensions
to schoolmasters and schoolmistresses, which would
greatly add to the power of the Government. The pa-
tronage thus given them would be enormous. It was
too great a power to give to any Government, as they
ceuld not tell within half a million of money what the
extent of this grant would be, within the next
twenty years. The Noble Lord had said a great
deal about the unreasonableness of the opposition
but if he thought so why not refer the whole subject to
a Select Committee? Why not refer it for investiga-
tion to a fair, and enlightened, and impartial Committee?
If the Government would not consent to this, it was a
proof that there was something in the scheme which
would not bear the light of day, and that the real ob-
ject was to increase the power and influence of the
Crown. The result of this scheme, in his opinion,
would be, that instead of a free and an enlightened
people they would have an enslaved and corrupted na-
tion.—(Hear, hear.) He would now conclude by mov-
ing the amendment of which he had given notice.

Lord DUNCA N seeonded the motion. He had listened
with great attention to the speech of the First Minister of
the Crown, and he confessed he had been much disap-
pointed with the speech. He had expected that the
Noble Lord would have made some explanation of the ne-
cessity which there existed of keeping up the Council of
education which had caused such heart-burnirga in the
country. He had expected also that the Noble Lord
would have seen the necessity of including the Catholics
as well as the Protestants in the grant; but he had been
disappointed. The Noble Lord had made great reference
to what had been done since 1839; whereas, in his (Lord
Duncan's) opinion, that from 1834 to 1839, education
had been in a more flourishing condition than it had
been in any former period. He wished to call attention
to the constitution of the Committee of 1839, because he
found that the name of the then Master of the Mint
(Mr. Labouchere) was now awanting, and further he
saw that, whereas the commission of that year consisted
of thirty-nine persons, the commission of this year con-
sisted only of six persons, and these were all Members
of the Government. He found that in the year 1841, Lord
Monteagle, who had no connexion with the Government,
but was only a Privy Councillor—he found him sitting
on the commission of 1841. Now, if Lord Monteagle,
being unconnected with the Government, and but a
Privy Councillor—if he found Lord Monteagle a Mem-
ber of that Committee, he should like to know whether
any reason existed why the Archbishop of Canterbury,
or the Duke of Norfolk, or Mr. Fox Maule, or such
sort of persons—(Cheers, ironical cheers, laughter, and
the most absolute abandon for a few seconds)—he only
meant to say, that all, or any individuals might be
introduced under thie principle, on this Committee.—
(Continued laughter.) Let the House look at the in-
spectors made by this BilL They had 16 inspectors,
who were paid 13,6001., being thirteen and a-half
of the whole outlay.—(Hear.) Now, he thought that
where this enormous expense was incurred in a mea-
sure for the benefit of one section of a class, that the
House ought to look with jealousy at the whole Bill.
Looking at the principle involved in the measure, he
thought that it was opposed in almost every particular
to the rule which had guided Government in 1834. But
who was the originator of this measure ? Let them not
be told at one time that it was the Prime Minister, and
at another time that it was the President of the Council.
He trusted that this subject would be reconsidered. He
did not desire to see himself placed in opposition to the
Government, but ho trusted that the number of petitions
presented would have their effect, and that they would
not be thrown over to the mercies of the Privy Council.
Knowing, as he did that the Right Hon. Bart., the Mem-
ber for Tamworth, had opposed a grant of this kind in
1839, on a highly constitutional ground, he should con-
clude by quoting a portion of the speech delivered by
him on that occasion. The Noble Lord quoted a por-
tion of the speech of Sir Robert Peel, in 1839, and sat
down by seconding the motion.
Sir ROBERT INGLIS said that it would be in vain,
at that moment, to try to create a different organization
in the machinery for giving education to the country.
He retained this conviction as strongly as ever, that it was
to the Church of England, and Church alone, that the State
should delegate this duty ; and however defective he
might think this scheme of the Government he would
receive it thankfully, if he could not receive it cheer
fully. It was his own deliberate conviction, that they
would not have received so good a measure from any
other section or party in that House.—(" Hear, hear,"
from Mr. Duncombe.) He (Sir R. H. Inglis) had stated
deliberately his opinion, without any intention of injuring
her Majesty's Government in the eyes of those who had
given them so general and so ready a support.—(lronical
cheers.) It was asserted that the education given to the
population of this country had been generally furnished
by the Dissenters. He denied this. Until within the
last century, they had no Dissenters at all—(Elear)—
at least no Dissenters who assumed to themselves the
constitution of an independent church. An Hon. Gen-
tleman spoke of the Lancastrian system, but the Hon.
Gentleman ought to remember that the Church imme-
diately introduced an equal if not a better system, that
of Dr. Bell, which was universally allowed to an lin-
t going
oDissenters.
proved method of education. The Hon. Member would
find that all the grammar schools in England had been
ng
o a
constitutional he
se could h
o not
school—(Laughter)—
but
(L a think,u
er
ght that_
founded by gentlemen belonging to the Church of Eng-
land, and only within the last few years was a school
o
the framers of this measure would find themselves advan-
taugnedde byd
He deeply regretted that he could not give an uncondi-
tional support to the measures of the Government, but
yet while saying this he was bound to observe that no
new reason bad been alleged—no new principle had
been advanced for the scheme which the Government
had proposed. All had been made fair and bright, but
it was evanescent in its character and quite unjustifiable
in its principle. The Government appeared to have
acted on the principle of convenience, and according to
the facts which had transpired there might be a
present advantage, they were quite ready to avail them-
selves of it. They adduced the principle offered by the
national schools, and might attempt to show how suc-
cessful they had been. But they might as well attempt
to show the principles of the mode of Government with
respect to the tide-waiters.—(Laughter.) It might be
said that with the advance of 100,0001., there was
a sufficient opportunity for carrying out the whole
of the scheme. But ho had serious objections, and the
first of these was to the unscriptural portion of the
education plan, and he had serious objections as to how
far these plans should be carried out. He had serious
objections to the plan as it now stood. He had serious
objections to an unsanctified education—to that education
that tho guide post sometimes led to the gibbet. If they
would give
the returns they would show that education had
rather increased crime than led from it. By those returns he
would show that out of 1,000 convictions, against those who
were shown to possess, at least, some degree of educa-
tion; 845 were against persons possessing education; and
145 against without education. He saw, however, in
the reign of her Majesty's Government, that there was
a design to waive all minor offences, and with the hope
that such would be the case, he would give his cordial
vote in support of her Majesty's Government.
Mr. MACAULAY regretted that he felt any neces-
sity to make an observation on the plan of the Go-
vernment for the education of the people. It
seemed a strange time to moot the question as
to whether the people were to be educated
or not, or whether it was the duty of the Government
them with that education.
to provide He might
cite the penal statutes to show that there was
no deficiency on the part of the public or of the
state, as was well shown by the existence of the
penal statutes. On that subject he could not quote any
higher authority, or use stronger terms than those of

, Adam Smith, and he took Adam Smith's authority the
I more readily because it was well known that he
was no advocate for increasing the power of
Governments. Now, Adam Smith said there was a
difference, and particularly- in highly civilised commer-
cial countries between the education of the higher and
the poorer classes of society. The education of the
poor, Adam Smith pronounced to be a matter in which
Governments were most deeply concerned ; and he
compared the ignorance which prevailed amongst the
lower classes of society to a leprosy, or some other
dreadful disease, which it was the duty of the Govern-
ment to check. If he searched all history he could not
select a stronger proof of this than what occurred in
this country in 1780. There they witnessed the effect
of ignorance upon the population. One hundred thou
sand people, at the rumours of a mad man, rose
to overturn the empire, and to make the predecessors
of the Speaker tremble in his chair—to pull the
House of Lords off their cushions, and make Bishops
fly over the tiles.—(Hear and laughter.) That was a
state of things, however laughable it might seem, which
it would not be satisfactory to witness again. At the
time to which he alluded, six and thirty fires were
blazing in different parts of the metropolis, the house
of the Chief Justice was destroyed, and the Prime
Minister's children were carried from the nursery and
laid on the tables in the Horse Guards. Nothing could
have been more dreadful than these acts, resulting from
the ignorance of the population. To the same cause
they must attribute the riots of Bristol, the disturbances
of Nottingham, and all the ruthlessness of Capt. Goring,
and the horrors of the incendiary fires of the agricul-
tural districts, and all these dreadful and degrading acts
which mere than anything else tended to reduce man to
the level of the animal. Could it be possible that such
things as these could have taken place in a community
where the labourer had had his mind improved by edu-
cation—had been taught to find pleasure in the exercise
of his intellect—had been taught to reverence his maker
to regard the value of life, or to respect the constituted
and lawful authorities of the country. This appeared to
him to afford an irresistable argument upon the
subject. It was clearly the duty of Government to
protect the lives and property of the community,
and as ignorance tended the render both of life
and property unsafe, he was at a loss to conceive how
it could be denied that education belonged to the pro-
vince of Government.—(Hear, hear.) It was admitted
that Government by some means ought to protect the
lives and property of the community. Now, if they
took away education what means were there left. Abso•
lutely none which could be resorted to except in cases of
extreme necessity. Take away education, and all that
was left to them was military force, gaols, penal settle-
ments gibbets, and tortures. Now if the protection of
life and property were the end to which Government
was bound to look, the only wise and effectual means
to attain it was, to elevate the moral and intellectual
character of the people. If Government had the power
of inflicting punishment on the poor, who could doubt
that it was the duty of Government to provide educa-
tion for them ? It seemed to him that no proposition
could be more plain. The truth was manifest when they
reflected that had it been acted upon, probably more
than one-half of the population who had been executed
for crime might still have been alive—more than one-
half of the inmates of the gaols might have been at
liberty, and more than one•half of the inhabitants of
the penal settlements might have been honourably em-
ployed on their native soil.—(Cheers.) Looking at the
first report presented to the Committee of Education,
just after a period of insurrection, it appeared that in
the district where the insurrection had taken place there
were about 11,000 children of the age at which children
were generally educated, but of these about 8,000 were
attending no school at all, while the other 3,000 attended
schools; these were defective in their system of educa-
tion—filthy to the last degree, and conducted by masters
who stood in the position of ruined tradesmen. In such
districts as these where the population were suffered to
grow up in this state readily listened to the advice of
bad men, who were anxious to excite them to rise
against the constituted authorities. Here was the
manner in which various insurrections were brought
about, and what were the means resorted to to put it
down. Having neglected to attend to one means they
had only one other to adopt, and that was resorting to
military force. Had the people been educated they
never would have listened to the advice of designing
men, and there would have been no necessity for
the shedding of blood. lie said, therefore, that educa-
tion was not only part of the functions of Government,
but it was the best end to which Government ought to
aim for the protection of the lives and property of the
community. When he saw the efforts that were being
made in the country against this scheme, and remem-
bered that all the great Legislators and moral philoso-
phers of all ages, and the eminent men who were
generally disposed to restrict the functions of Govern-
ment, were in favour of such a plan—when he remem-
bered that the opinion of all the greatest champions of
civil and religious liberty, and of none more so than of
those whose memory were held in the greatest reverence
by the Non-conformists of England, was in favour of
Government education—he really was surprised to see
the movement that was now going on throughout the
country. He was the more surprised when he remem-
bered Government education was supported by those
staunch non-conformists who, in time of Bishop
Laud, for the sake of religious principle,
left their native country for the new world of Massa-
chusetts, and when they established that State took the
charge of education. In 1642 they passed their first
Act upon that subject, and the preamble recited that
it was a matter of the deepest interest to the State that
the poorer class of the community should be educated
under the direction of the State. He had peculiar
pleasure in referring to such an authority as this, be-
cause those who followed their religious principles in
the present day were the advocates of the voluntary
system, and, in support of that system, they invariably
pointed to America, saying, see what the voluntary
system has done there ! Why the practice of America
in this subject was just the reverse. A national system
of education was the last legacy that Washington left to
the republic of the United States, while Jefferson was
ever an advocate of a system of education conducted by
the State. He quoted the authority of Jefferson with
peculiar pleasure, because of all the eminent public men
that had ever existed in the world he was one of the
greatest who had ever resisted any increase in the
functions of Government. Against these authorities only
one'eminentinanaepould be placed, and the clamour of 1846
against a Government system of education was raised
by those who opposed the wisdom of their former selves.
It seemed to be the opinion of them who raised the
clamour that the proper functions of Government was
always to wait till necessity called for the exercise of
military force, and they had nothing to do with resorting
to means for improving the intellectual and moral cha-
racter of the people. The duty of the statesman was
simply to see great towns grow up and provide gaols and
barracks for the correction of the people instead of
schools for improvement of their minds, and when
moments of danger arrived they will be wanted
to be at liberty to send down soldiers to mow them down,
but he must on no account attempt to cultivate or teach
the intellect of the people. The same might be said of
the populations of agricultural districts. He meant the
incendiary's torch was at work before the statesman
could interfere, and he must abstain from all attempts to
remove the ignorance which might prevail on machinery
and subjects of that nature. It was difficult to under-
stand in what way men of undoubted ability and of
excellent intentions should have become attached to so
strange a theory. The explanation which occurred to
him was, that he believed a considerable portior of
this theory arose from the operation of a law of which
they might trace the operation in many similar ways,
viz., the law of reaction. The country was
was just fresh for a great contest with the Government
upon the subject of interference in matters of trade,
men's minds were naturally much excited by the pro-
cess. Much was said of the advantages of non-inter-
ferenagiEliLthe advantages of free competition; and some
men orMat ability and excellent intentions seemed in-
clined, as soon as they had driven the Government from
a promise which clearly did not belong to them, to drive
them from a promise which appeared to be clearly a
part of the legislative domain. When he looked into
the works which had been wrttten upon the subject, he
saw the principles of non-interference clearly laid down.
People were told to remember the power of the prin-
ciples of fair competition, and this argument seemed to
pervade the whole of their thoughts, and the writers and
speakers seemed to imagine that if free competition was
useful in matters of trade and commerce, it could be no
less excellent when applied to the education of the peo-
ple. They seemed to think, that because it was good
when applied to corn, it must be sound also when ap-
plied to the school. No analogy could, however, be more
false. Consider for a moment what it was which made
the principle of freedom of trade so excellent. In trade
there could be no doubt but that the producer or dis-
poser of sugar could be able to sell his sugar at a more
reasonable price than if Government were to turn grocer
and open a grocer's shop in every parish throughout the
country.—(dear, hear.) Why was it so? Because any
individual grocer had more interest in adding to the
public welfare than any Government could possibly have,
If the grocer's prices were above those of his netghbours,
if the grocer's sugar was worse than that of his rivals, be
was ruined; he had no customers; his name
soon appeared in the Gazette, and his childrenear
took refuge in the union workhouse.—(Hear, b)
If, however, on the other hand, his supply
was good, the
.o rlucted
prices were as low as his neighbour's; if
his business properly, and was civil to his customers, conducted
the
man would grow rich—he looked forward to his chaise
and to his country house; and this wasbeneficial in the
the reason why
the principle of free competition wa
supply of goods. But there was not thse slightest parallel
in these cases between the freedom of trade in goods and
the education of the people. What class of men could
have the same interest, the same strong and pressing in-
terest in supplying the poor with good schools as the
grocer had in supplying his customers with good sugar?
There were benevolent persons who contributed some
of their time in order to give education to the poor, and
they might if they please say that there existed among
such persons a kind of benevolence and a competition to
do good, but do not let Hon. Members be imposed upon by
a mere play upon words, or imagine that such a com-
petition is at all to be compared with that earnest,
strong, and fierce competition, prompted by the desire
for wealth on the one hand, and a dread of ruin on the
other.—(Hear, hear.) Would it not be strange to
say that there was a great deal of benevolence
evinced in this country towards the poor, and
upon that ground it would be better to abolish the
poor's rates, because the abolition of such rates would
give them more by the payment of poor's rates from
voluntary contributions. The argument holds equally
good in the case of education as in the case of the
' poor's rates. It must appear on a moment's consideration
that the task of educating the people is
upon every ground just such as those with which
the Government should interfere. He did not know
that the duty of Government interference had been
drawn with such clearness by any person as by Mr.
Hume.—(Laughter.) He referred to Mr. David Hume,

and he had no doubt that the lion. Member for Mon-
' trose would perfectly coincide in the opinion he was
abut to quote. After laying down in the strongest
mariner the general principles of inter'enee 09 the port
of the Government, Mr. Herne went on to say that, as
there are certain cal!ings highly use
th ful and ci.cessary to
e state, but yet. which (1., not give that degree of ad-
vantage to any individual adequate as remuneration for
his services, the State most, by means of bribe;, by means
of distinctions, or by money secure him." If there was a
calling in the wide world to which this description ap-
plied that calling was that of the schoolmaster, whose
business was to teach the poor. This calling was useful.
That his calling was necessary for the people no person
could dispute ; as little could it be, that he cannot and
does not obtain adequate remuneration without the in-
terference of the Government. Here, then was an ob-
vious reasonable t ule laid down by Mr. Hume, and this
was a case in which the Government was clearly called
upon to interfere. There was no reason, a priori, to
prove that the application of the principles of non-in -
terference could not supply the people with a good prin-
ciple of popular education. But let the House look at
the facts. What was the system which had existed in
England from time immemorial ? It had always been
a system of non-interference for the purpose of provid-
ing education for the poor. If, then, that principle of
free competition really were the principles upon which the
education ofithe people might successfully be conducted;
if the principle would be to education what it was to a
system of trade, they would have seen the result of that
principle as they had seen it developed in consequence of
the removal of the restrictions OB trade.—(Hear, hear.)
The principle of competition in matters of education
could not, however, have been the one adopted to the
end, viz., general education among the people. It was a
principle which had been tried with perfect liberty in the
richest country under heaven, and in a country the
people of which are considered as intelligent persons,
and cannot be fairly accused of being illiberal. If, then
there ever was a country in which the principle of none
interference could have worked with effect, and shown its
power, it would have been in this country. The state of
things would have been this—the schools of the country
would have been models, perfect institutions, to be found
in every part of the country ; every school would have
been an example, it would have contained an excellent
little library and mechanical apparatus, the very fact of
such a thing as grown-up persons, who were unable to
read or to write their name, would have been unheard
of. And with respect to the schoolmasters, they would
have been men as expert in the business of' imparting
knowledge, and in the management of the minds of
young people, as their cutlers were in making knives,
and as their engineers were in repairing machinery ;
they would have been amply remunerated and their lot
in life would have been respectable, and they would have
been treated with all that respect which the instructors
of the morals and intelligence of the people should Lal-
ways receive. Did they show that they possessed any
of those things at the present time ? Look at all those
au, horitative sources of information, the charges of judges,
the resolutions of grand juries, and the reports of public
departments which have anything to do with ascertaining
the state of education among the people. Their effect is
the same as those facts already stated by my Noble
Friend. Take the report of the register of the prisons.
In Hertford Gaol and House of Correction there were
700 prisoners, one half of those were unable to read or
to write. In Maidstone gaol there were 3,000 prisoners.
1,300 of whom were unable to read or to write, and not
more than 50 able to read or to write well. In Cold-
bath-fields there were 8,000 prisoners, but only seven
who could read or write well. Look again at the register
of marriages, of 130,000 couples married in the year
1544, more than 40,000 bridegrooms and 60,000 brides
could not sign their names, but put their marks to the
register.—(Laughter.) Even the education that was
received in some of the schools was of a most
inferior description. Many of the schools are mere
dens—a heap of fuel on one side, half a testament, a
dog's-eared spelling book, a broken slate, and a pen.
And then the master—(Laughter)—and then the master
—where was the high principle, the high spirited, the
heroic devotedness on his part to the improvement of the
pupils committed to his care, many of the men were
merely discarded serving men, ruined tradesmen, many
of them who could not work a rule of three sum, who did
not know whether the earth were a cube or a sphere,
whether Jesusalem was in Asia or America. Those
were the men who could do nothing else, that were ap-
pointed to train the hearts of the rising generation—
(Hear, hear)—and upon whom the whole virtue, pros-
perity, and freedom of the country depended.—(Cheers.)
If the House thought he was taking too harsh a view of
the present state of education he would appeal to an
authority which he thought no person could deny—he
would refer to the report of the congregational union
representing the non-conformists of England. Last year,
not quite a year ago, upon the 16th of May, 1846, the
report of the committee of the congregational union for
general education was presented to the union. It was
moved " that the report now read be adopted, and
printed and circulated under the direction of the
board." That motion was made by Edward Baines, jun.,
of Leeds. What he would now read would he thought
be considered as an opinion not to be disputed. "If it
were necessary to expose facts to such an assembly as
this, with respect to the interest of so large a portion of
the population of our towns and rural districts, we could
refer them to the exhibitions in the serious localities
by the published documents of the Registrar-General's
reports. Those reports would furnish us with enough
to make us modest in speaking of what has been done for
the humbler classes, and make us ashamed of England,
that the sons of the soil of England should have been so
long neglected, and should present to enlightened
foreigners travelling from other shores such a sad spec-
tacle of neglected mental
.degradation." He, like,Mr.
Baines, most cordially adopted that report. It was in
perfect agreement with all the information he had been
able to obtain upon the subject. He believed that the
state of education among the common people of this
country ought to make us ashamed at the sad spectacle
presented to the enlightened foreigners who visited our
shores."—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) And now, under
what system had this state of things come to
pass ? Under a system of non-interference—of
free competition—a system which they were told
was just as powerful a stimulus in education as in mat-
ters of trade or commerce. How long had it been in
this state? This morning he received a paper said to
contain " reasons for opposing the educational plan,"
and one of the reasons was if you wait with patience,
private enterprise will do it all. They had been waiting
with patience ever since the time of the Heptarchy.
How long were they still to wait? Till the year 2547
or 3847? Was there ever an experiment tried during
such a length of time with so little effect, and yet these
men called upon them to go on waiting still longer.
The experiment had been tried under the most favour-
able circumstances. They were asked to wait a short
time, and all would be right. He defied them, however,
to point out a single case in which free competition had
been productive of beneficial results. And as the south
of Britain formed an argument, so did also the northern
part forna,another. Now here were two nations of the
same origin, of the same blood, speaking, with a slight
diversity, the same language, separated, at the same
time from the see of Rome in the same generation, and
by the same great reformatory movement, united under
one sovereign, going through the same sources of politi-
cal revolutions, united together through a long series of
ages, and yet there now existed great differences be-
tween them. England had been for many ages one of
the richest, most prosperous and civilised nations in the
world ; in all these matters Scotland had been almost at
the bottom of nations calling themselves civilised. They
(the House) knew that one hundred and fifty or two
hundred years ago Scotland and Scotchmen were words
treated with contempt ; they were considered as words.
belonging to a people very far beneath other nations in
civilisation ; and even the greatest of Scottish patriots
seemed all but to despair of ever raising the mental and
moral condition of the lower classes of that country-
Soi
general was the feeling that they were backward
manwh
civilisation, o in
foughttheand 1 7t h
suffered forcentury,
lber
ty —o of
brave Saltoun,and a
able man—ever the friend of his country's independence,
was so overwhelmed in contemplating the low state of
education, and the prevalence of misery amongst his
countrymen, that he proposed the institution of personal
slavery in Scotland as the only means of compelling the
people to submit to a system of improvement. In two
months from the day at which that pamphlet of Fletcher
of Saltoun was published, the Parliament of Scotland
passed the great Act of 1696, for the settling of schools.
See the change that has been effected. In spite of the in-
clemency of the air, or the sterility of its soil, the Scotch-
man has no reason to envy any other part of the world.
Wherever he went, and there were few places he did
not go to—(Laughter)—the same undeviating career of
success was sure to await him. If he enlisted he soon
became a non-commissioned officer,
and
years agoit
wascustomary.,b
pursuit
enithe hundrede
applied himself to, the reuitnw was successful.
n matter
i
About Eng-
land to speak of them as it wasw at an end, that ofnowas of the Esquitraux,
but the language of contempt s
esteem took its place. The systemtin epve
et oiritfaieceoscod:uul.
,lcdna:t ivlaonas nco,vitesle
:sdtotoait
Inbeehlei
nh,h eleaed
in tlanecessaryndt
noSweetopnardns.vcaus one
larizeo,pbenntt9immpaenriyeocbr
as
freethey cO
terhdoesamecattosuch
seeiosahbhoeasevndtelhegi-eteteaorgument stood. Let them observe
what different results followed in the two countries. As
to one—the richer of the two—free competition was al-
lowed to exercise its influence undo- the most favour-
able circumstances, and the consequences, were pointed
out by the Congregational Union in a report describing
the lamentable ignorance which existed in this country,
and of which all foreigners who visited them were
ashamed. In the other country, which was little fa-
voured by nature—one with a very imperfect state of
education—the consequence was such an improvement
in civilisation, such security of life and property,
and such general prosperity, as had been hardly
ever seen in the world before. Now, if these results
had happened in any experiment in surgery or che-
mistry, would it not be conclusive as to the excellence
of the course adopted.—(Hear, hear.) The objections
which had been raised to this question were vanishing
on every side. If the Government had nothing to do
with the education of the people, then all the grants
which had been made were but a waste of money ; but
if they had, then they should not be prepared to forego
the advantages of the system for the sake of one hun-
dred, or even two hundred thousand pounds. Even in
an economical view he considered that it had its recom-
mendations, for when they took into consideration the
money which would be saved in prisons and punishment
of crime, and for the purpose of preserving order and
property, he believed its advantages could not'fail to be
appreciated on this score alone. The money, too, could
be expended under the superintendence of the managers
of the school in each locality ; so that the charge of
t:
cor-
ruption and political jobbing could not be borne
For, in the first place, Government did not appoint the
dismiss
them ; in the second place, they did not
hao
them ; ire the
independent third place, o
the managers
were perfectlythe
e schools
were ls
noo,
in the fourth place, the salary to the teacher was
entirely contingent on the approval of the managers,