The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-23 00:00:00

.tion.—(Cheers.) Sir, I believe, if we could know the real
extent of this evil—if we could have presented to us a full
account of all the crime which has been generated by igno-
rance—if we could know what really has taken place within
the last fifty years—if we could know how much evil the ex-
ample'of the parent has introduced—how his example has in-
troduced infection into the character of his children—if we
could know how much of violence,' how much of rapine and
crime against life and property have been eaused by a dearth of
education—if we could know how many souls have been intro-
duced into the presence of their Creator and Judge, ignorant
of the character, use, and principles of Christianity—l think
we should be disposed to shudder at our neglect, and to repair,
without delay, the evils of past legislation. —(Loud cheers.)
Sir, I look to the volume of evidence which has been pre-
sented for the last few years. I hold in my hand one of those
volumes, the reports of the Commissioners who were ap-
pointed to inquire into the state of education of the children
employed in the several mining districts of the kingdom. A
single report refers to the education of the children in Flint-
shire and Denbighshire, Lancaster, Staffordshire, Durham,
North Wales, and South Wales. The evidence had been
ccllected from men of the highest acquirements, and of the
most superior attaintainments, and they uniformly come to the
same conclusion, that there was complete degradation in many
parts of the country, on account of the neglect of education.
I believe that we are little aware of the extent to which
ignorance prevails.—(Hear, hear.) We See returns of the
number of children educated, but we rarely inquire what
is the real state of the question. We may be told that there
are from about four or five hundred thousand children, of whom
three hundred thousand are educated, and two hundred thou--
sand are not. This is a sufficiently painful reflection. But
if we are really acquainted with the education which the three
hundred thousand receive, our reflections would be still more
painful. I have not come to a conclusion on this subject
without having maturely weighed the amount of evidence on
both sides of the question, and although I kr ow that any re-
ference to these documents is not very palatable to
the House, yet they are far more important than
any speculative arguments which I could adduce. I
will take an important case with respect to Oldham,
in Lancaster, 'and I find in the evidence of the curate of the
church of St. James's, in Oldham, this testimony, which he
gives in reference to the state of the educated classes in the
district. And now, considering whether it be safe to trust to
the voluntary principle for the education of the poor, and for
the arguments of those who say that the rule of the State
ought to be non interference. Let us listen to what thin gen-
tleman says, speaking of the district of St. James :—" There
is ' in this district no public day-school whatever;
I have made several attempts to establish one.
I have even sought assistance from the National
Society. A good building has been erected, and two
smaller ones—one for infants, and another for more advanced
scholars. An attendance of scholars can be got, but no
money to pay a master. This state of things has been endured
four years—three masters have successively tried to maintain
a school here, bat without avail." Now, here was a distract
which up to the present hour contained no pub is day-school
whatever, it was quite true that there were Sunday schools.
The parents had no objections to these as they did not inter-
fere with the working of the children, and because the chil-
dren attending these schools were returned as educated.
But what is the opinion of this gentleman on this
education? He says—" It is obvious that schools
composed thus must be imperfect in the extreme—
as schools they do harm, by lowering the opinion of the people
of the value of secular instruction, and teaching then to be
satisfied with a quantity with which they ought not." 1 hey
had no day schools, none of the habits engendered in schools;
and the clergyman thinks mere attendance, without any prepare-
-don for it, does more harm thin good ; and yet these are the
persons who are returned as educated. They had it in evi-
dence that. these Sunday schools were an imperfect instrument
for education ; that they did more harm than good, and that
for secular education they were worse than useless. The
evidence 'of the boys themselves was worth attention.
One of them, fifteen years of age, says, " I have
been at a Sunday school for, five or six years and
I have not learnt to read more, than my letters." He went to
a Sunday-school for five or six years, and he did not know
how to read his own language—lie did not know how .to read
or write. A day school could not be established; those parties
who would send their children to them were not willing to pay
for them.. Is not -this a proof that the voluntary principle could
not be relied upon?-(Hear, hear.) What was now proposed ?
To elevate the character of the schoOlmaster; to exalt his
position in the scale of society, and to give him encouragement
to advance himself. As to the patronage gained by the Go.
vernment, it was an objection so futile that it ought not
to have been advanced in the House.—( Hear, hear.) But
the most important tendency of the measure was to raise the
character of the schoolmaster. At present, as soon as they
had a competent schoolonster, as soon as he had proved him-
self capable to discharge the duties of such an office, tempta-
tions were held out to him to leave his situation, and to enter
other employments, which would lead to more certain pro-
motion. - How then can you succeed, unless you teach him
that the office is an honourable one, and unless you hold out to
him some prospect that when he will be incapacitated, that the
State will not neglect him, but reward him for his
faithful services. Sir, that part of these minutes,
which has a tendency to improve the condition of the
schoolmaster is one to which I give my hearty concurrence.—
( Hear, hear.) I regret the opposition of the Nonconformist
bodies to this measure, I have shown my attachment to the
Dissenters on many occasions. I have supported many Bills
which had their relief for an object: and, notwithstanding,
my attachment for the Established Church of this country,
I should be sorry to gain any covert advantage at the expense
of another church—and, if I thought it unjust to the Dissenters
I would not support it—it is impossible to forget the services
which they had rendered to education, even when the English
Church had neglected it.—( Hear.) It is impossible to forget
the services and the example shown by the Non-conformist.
But having considered the objections of the Dissenting body,
Ido not believe they are founded in justice. I think that the
principle of the aid proposed to be given is perfectly fair, and
that these minutes in fact adopt the voluntary principle.—
( Hear, hear.) This is no Sate interference in the ordi-
nary sense. The minutes can only he set in force through
the interference of the voluntary. principle. Volun-
tary provision for the salary of the schoolmaster is essential
before the aid of the State can be obtained, and it is open to
the Dissenter to take advantage of it as well as to the mem-
'berg of the Estabiished Church. The Dissenters who now
complain of the partiality and injustice of these minutes ought
to recollect what would have been the opposition they would
have met with on the part of the Established Church if thq
had been proposed ten. years since.—(Hear.) Being then
deeply impressed with the impartiality, and the perfect equality
of these minutes towards the Dissenters, I cannot but
give them my support. The Cilurch are not seeking
any. direct advantage in consequence of these minutes.
It is said the Church receives some eighteen-twentieths of
that aid at this moment. Do they receive it on account of
the superior numbers of the members of the Establishment ?
If they, do, can it be more justly given ? If it is not on
account of their numbers, but on account of their zeal and
liberality in the cause of education, do not that superior zeal
andliberality also constitute a claim to increased assistance?
Try it on what principle you will, you can urge no objection to
this mode on account of the supposed advantage which will be
gained by the Church. There is no denying that the Church
is powerful, and I rejoice that it is so.—( Hear, hear.) I think
that the power of the Church is increasing; and why is it in-
creasing? My firni belief is that the power of the Church is
increasing from its hold over the affections of the people of this
country. It is becoming strengthened because it is becoming
more awakened to the amount of duty it has to perform. My
firm belief is that the Church has acquired a hold, an increased
hold, on the respect and veneration of the people of this country
by its willingness to make a timely and salutary reform, and by
its readiness to consentto a reduction of the superfluous emolu-
ments of the higher orders of the Church dignitaries, in order
to devote those emoluments to afford increased accommodation
and means to the spiritual charge of the people by its superior
members. It is my opinion that the conduct of the Church
in that respect has greatly increased its power—and it is a legi-
timate source of power. It is not the Government grants that
are giving the Church an increased influence. That is a com-
plete mistake; the Church would be just as powerful without
this aid. In what way does that 'aid increase the power of the
Church -in any district where the Church population is more
numerous than any other sect ? It is the Church's power over
the affections of the people. I say it not invidiously with re-
gard to the Dissenters, because I give to the Dissenters the full
credit which is due to them—they are actuated by the same
spirit, of which all religious opinions are beginning to perceive
the necessity. The influence of the Church has been increased
by the conduct of the t hurah, and it will continue to be so.
Give or withhold this pecuniary, aid by the Government to the
Church, and its legitimate sources of influence over tha popu-
lation will not be diminished ; and I rejoice that it is so, as the
principle is oue of fairness. On these grounds I shall give my
support to the motion of the Noble Lord, and shall not vote for
the motion or amendment of the Hon. Member. I think that
we have had abundant time. I think that the facts are well be-
fore us, if we will but resort to the evidence of which we are in
possession. The institutions of this country are not capacious
enough, as they at present exist, to provide for the education
of the countless millions which are engaged in varied pursuits.
Sir, in the course of this discussion, a question of great im.
nortance has arisen with regard to the condition of other sub.

jects of her Majesty other than those who are members of the
Established Church, or those whom we usually call Dissenters
—I speak of the Roman Catholics. Sir, lam of opinion that
no system of general education, even in England would be ad-
mitted as a conclusive, or comprehensive one, which excluded
the Roman Catholics from its.operation.—( Hear, hear.) The
Noble Lord says there is no alteration in the principle of the
minute of 1839. In that respect I beg to differ from my No-
ble Friend ; I think we are about—practically at least—to
make a difference, a material difference, in the principle upon
which we have begun these minutes. You are about to admit
. . _ .

to the participation- of the advantages of this grant the members
of the dissenting body, which certainly has hitherto been ex.
eluded. Hitherto the Wesleyan body—practically at least—has
not had any participation in this vote. They were not
in connexion ' with the British and Foreign School
Society, and therefore that rule which excluded from
participation in the advantage of the Parliatnen.ary vote, any
society not in connexion pith the. National SoCiety, or the
British and Foreign Schools Society—:excluded the Wesleyans
from any pecuniary advantage from it. - You are about to
alter the principle of these minutes in that respect. You
have given an assurance to the Wesleyans, that this rule,
which has hitherto prevailed, shall not be obligatory—and
that these schools, whether or not in connexion with
either of the parent societies, shall be entitled to aid,
and that authoriries of the Wesleyan body shall be
consulted in respect of the inspection of these schools.
So far as the position of the Roman Catholic is concerned,
what is the material difference ? There is a material difference
in point of principle as well as of advantage. You are going
to widen and spread over with the public bounty an unusual
space, and the more wide that space is the more marked will be
the exclusion.— (Hear, hear.) Therefore I think that the time
has come—and I am the more anxious to avow my opinion, as

an an avowal of opinion in this respect may be unpopular—
(Hear, hear)—the time has come when Justice and good
policy call from you a matuce consideration of the
positron of the Roman Catholic. Take the case now
of the Roman Catholics of Manchester and of Liverpool, or
in many other places. Now let us deliberate upon this
question without insisting upon the alteration of the minute—
or inquiring into the meaning of particular terms, or whether the
word " Scripture," is meant to signify "authorised version," or
whether the Roman Catholics are excluded from this grant in
consequence of their not being in connexion either with the
National Society or with the British and Foreign School
Society—let us neglect these, and instead of them, see that we
are about to adopt—l will not say—a permanent system,
but an extended system, on which we are about to act,
and let ns consider whether or no we can exclude on any
ground or pretence, if we can continue the exclusion, f the
Roman Catholics; it would perhaps be expedient as e Hon.e
Friend said, to postpone the consideration of the questionni-
for
some months, but lam not bound or inclined upon that account to
force or precipitate the adoption of any measure, and I will
admit that it requires some consideration • but I am
not disposed that there shall be any doubt as to the
opinion which I entertain.—(Loudcheers. ) Let us take
the population of Manchester. There is a particular
district in Manchester called ‘‘lrish Town," so great is the
number of that people residing there, and lam told that there ,
are not less than sixty-. thousand or seventy thousand Irish
people inhabiting it. They are a class of people that come
over there, and who,
by their industry and good conduct. They come over to the
wealthy manufactures of Manchester, to live there and give
the advantage of their labour. They have no natural pro-
tit.etora—titer. Ten Bo wealthy Roman Catholic eonuelted