The Sun.
London, England, 1823-03-18 00:00:00

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the
• Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Commit-
, tee of Supply.
On the motion for the SPEAKER to leave the Chair,
Mr. CREEVEY said, that understanding that as soon as the
House went into a Committee the Right Hon. Gent. opposite.
would move the Estimates for the Ordnance Department, he
should take the opportunity of moving some reductions of which
he had alreadyen notice,. and which he thought peculiarly
applicable to Ordnance Estimates. He found 'that one
item in those Estimates was the sum of 24,442/. for repairing
the fortifications of the island of Barbadoes. It had fallen to his
_lot from time to time when this grant had been proposed to
state that there was a particular fund raised by mi Act of the
Colonial Assembly, for the express purpose of keeping the forti-
fications of the Island in repair. Every Member mightlook at
that Act; they would find that it had passed in DM, and it stated
that for maintaining the Fort, for building the Sessions House,
and prim, and for the other public charges incurred by Go.
vernnient, that an impost should be levied of 4i per cent. on ell
the dead commerce of the island. He contended, therefore,
gnu that fund was expressly intended for the reparation of the
fortifications, and he did not see how any lion. Gentleman
could put any other constructinn on the Act. lie was bound to
admit, that in the reign subsequent to the passing of the Act,
viz. the reign of Charles 11. that fund had been considered as
one of the hereditary revenues of the Crown, and had been ap.
Plied to the support of the Royal household. But in the year of
the reign, of Queen Anne's accession to the Throne, a petition
had been presented by the Planters and Merchants of Barbadoes
to the House of Commons, .setting forth the Colonial Act, and
Pitying that the 4i per cent. duty might be applied to the re.
pairs of the fortification, and other expeuces incurred by Go.
'yernment, according to the intention of the original Act. In
consequence of that petition the House had addressed the Queen,
and her Majesty had, In a message to the House, given direc-
tions that the ftind should be applied in the frianner prayed for
by the petitioners. If any Hon. Gentleman felt curious enough
to refer to the Royal message, they would find it in the 43th
Volume of the Journals of the House. He now called upon the
Honourable Gentleman opposite to tell- him what reason he
could give for calling upon the House to grant Supplies for
fepairing the fortifications of Barbadoes, when the Act ex.
• pp es providing for that charge had never been repealed.
Ile was aware that one reason generally offered was this, that
upon the Accession of Matte 3lejesty to the Throne, a new
species of settlement had been made, and the sum of 800,0001.
per annum had been granted to His Majesty, in lieu of the
revenue which he 'had formerly enjoyed from the collection of
dliferent small duties. He had also heard another argument
which had been attempted to be set up. He had heard it said,
' that supposing they bad got possession of that fond, other
persons bad had it before them ; and the names of Chatham
amid Burke had been referred to, as if any act of theirs could
vatify a present proceeding of the law. tie would say, that
. such a defence would not have been made in any other
place than that House. Yet those were the only reasims which
he had heard set up. It had been justly observed by Claren.
Ilan, that the affections of the people had been alienated from
Charles 1., when they fonnd that the Judge* were corrupted,
siodlhat justice was not to be had ; but what would now be
said of that House, if they not only divested the fund of which
ha spoka from its original purposp, but kept it for themselves--
for it was wasted in pensions to Members of that House 1 The
Iron. Member then moved the.following Resolutions i--.
Resolved, That it appears to this House from the estimate
laid before it for the service of the Ordnance for the present
year, there is a sum 0122,412/. for erecting and repairing forti-
fications in the island of Barbadoes.
" 'that by en Act of the Colonial Assembly of Itarbadoes
which was passed in the year 1603, it was enacted, That for the
purpose of maintaining the reparation of the forts, the build-
of a Sessions House, and a 'Prison, and all other public
ciuttges incumbent on the Governinent there, an impost or cos;
tow upon all dead commodities of the growth of the island, and
to be shipped off thesaine, should be paid to his Majesty, his
Min end successors, for ever, after the following rate omen-
nor; thatis tosay,.4 in specie for every 5 score.'
‘i;fritat it further appears from. the Journals of 'this Mime,
• .that it. the first year of her Majesty Queen Anne, A Petitioll was
presented to it from the planters mind merchants concerned in
Owe island of flarbadoev, setting forth the Colonial Act of liar-
had'oee before referred to, and praying 'that the said duty of
4/ per,eeotton might he applied to the reparation and building
of fortification
and defraying all charges incident to the govern. •
smolt there as the same was originally intended, instead of be.
*diverted' to other purposes, as the same then was;' and. that
-'in consequence of such petition, the House did address her Ma-
jesty Queen Anne, praying ' that•the duty might be restored to
the purposes for which It was created by the colonial act of Bar-
Woo, anti that this House WAS informed by a message from.
lier Majesty that she wohi give such directions accordingly.' •
" That, notwithetandg such specific application of this fund
by- the colonifil act of Barbadoes to the building and repair-
, ing of fortifications in that Island, and notwithstanding the re..
oegialtion of that law by this house and by her Majesty Queen
,Antte, this fund in now, for the most part, consumed by-pen.
-iiotittrfi,in thie country, including even Members of this House
or their families, whilst the fortifications and other public
. 4'01% of liarbadoea are left to be maintained` by money. mixed
ftom taxes on the people ; and that, under all the etrcum.
blokes above stated, and adverting likewise to the, present
ainietiog condition of A great portion of these kingdoms, this
iThuse consider* it to be alike due to- its own character and to
the feelings of the people, humbly. to request his Majesty to
giro directions that thc said duty of ili per centuin In the island
of Barbed= may be again restored to the original purposes
for whichit was created."
Mr. WARD had no objection whatever to the agitation of
.dais qucstion, but he thought it was at present unfairly brought
Istfore the Coneideration of-the Howie. The Hon. Gentleman's
ainendment was founded in error, and that error he appre.
hfoded originated In this way. The Act of Assembly made
• certain grew for the repairs of Barbidoes. The error was in
. imagining for a- moment,- that in the estimate proposed there
WAS th,l slightest reference to the works alluded to in that
grant. Net one.,shilling
,wasrequited to defray any one of the

expences mentioneil in the Act. That Act referred to the-
budding of Sessions House, prisons, and charges respecting
the Government of Barbadoes. Of the sum now proposed,
„part of it was to be applied in‘ the building of a laboratory,
part in.the repair of fin Ordnance wluirf ; and if the Island of
Barhadoes was to continue the chief and principal of the Lee-
ward Isles, 'such buildings were necessary—if Barbadoes were
any longer to continue a naval-station.

Mr. HUME thought it an extreme quibble to say that these
buildings were not public works of the Island. lie did not mean
to say that expences must not necessarily be incurred in.preserv-
ing a naval station, but he 'thought the exact nature of such ex-
pences should be enumerated.
.Sir C. LONG said that as he hail been personally alluded to,
by the Hors. Member fur Appleby, he felt it necessary to Rays
few.words. That sum of 4A per cent. had been granted to the
king without -any condition annexed. Lord Somers, Whom the
Hon. Member was in the habit of quoting, considered that sum
as part of the Civil List. So had Mr.Rurke in his regulation of it.
Mr. CREEVEY—He had a pension?
Sir C. LONG—Not in 17112, when he regulated the Civil
List.
•Mr. IIERNEL said, that the lion. Gentleman opposite had
Contended that the King had aperfect right to dispose of that
fund in pensions; this he utterly 'denied, and was willing to
join issue with the Right Hon. Gentleman en that subject. He
denied that this fund had ever been given to the King. It was
an extortion, in the first instance,
upon the credulit of the
Colonists—a rapacity countenanced by the Monarch—(Cheers)
and carried into effect by hie itlinisters. .
Mr.IVILIVIOT said, that the lion. Gentleman's .principle,
if correct, applied to the whole of the Act ; but he had heard
nettling which, in the. slightest degree affected the argument
Hof his Right on. Friend below him; this was not the time
for discussing the question.
The House divided, and the numbers were—
Forthe Amendment - . .56
Against it - 80
On our return to the Gallery we found Mr.-WARD on his
legs, when he moved the grant of 48,0271. for the salaries ofrthe
Alaiter-General, the Deputy Master-General, and the expellees
of the Ordnance Department in Pall-mall.
Mr. HUME contended that the country expected more re-
ductiOns of the salaries in the Ordnance than had been effected.
The salaries had not been lowered yet to the standard of 1797.
The Ordnance Department ought to be amalgamated into one
office, and not to continue in two different places as now was, in
Pall-mall and the Tower. There were more messengers and
clerks in the Ordnance Department than in any other, accord.
ing to the proportion of business transacted therein. If the Go-
vernment wati.not serious in reducing the salaries, the House
would in vain attempt it. What was the use of twenty mss.
103er:fin that department ? He would not go into the details
Which hestated last year, neither would lie divide the House on
that vote.—The vote was then ag,reed to.
X 7,065 7s. Ild. for the Royal Military Establishments at the
Laboratory and Woolwich Establishment.
Mr. HUME complained of the salary granted to the Inspec-
tortif Gunpowder, Who was allowed to live aereversham while
the powder was made at Waltham Abbey. Where was the
use of making powder when there was twenty yearii' consump-
tion in the arsenal' ? The office was a superfluous one, and
ought to be abolished.
.;- Mr. WARD said, that during the war powderhad been ma-
stiffactured at Feversham and Waltham Abbey. It had since.
been ,manufactured at Waltham Abbey ; yet there were great
conveniences at Feversham, which Could be continued-without
either great alterations or expence. When the necessity of
having such buildings erected at Waltham Abbey was taken
intavieav, Feversham was too convenient to be sold ; particularly
since it would then become absolutely. necessary to have such
buildings erected at Waltham Abbey at the cost of perhaps
50,000/. There was also at Feversham a most curious process
carried on, which had been invented by the Hon. Member for
Plymouth, and which would restore all the damaged gun.
powder, except that wetted by salt water, to as good a state as
it had ever been in. This would cause a saving to the public
not only now, but hereafter. During war it would save per-
haps several millions, and it cost.now only 1,7001.
111 r. HUME contended, that the Feversham Establishment
could he reduced, and that every House belonging to it ought
to be let to good tenants soon after the peace. Ile had a list
of 487 house's and apartments, let to individuals then belonging'
to the Civil Department of the Ordnance. They could not be
all useful. The Ordnance Establishment .at Guernsey ought
to be abolished, for that island contributed nothing to its
support.
To a question from Sir J. NEwPonT, which could not be
distinctly heard, Mr. WAnn replied that Government would
make all expedient reductions as quickly as it could. •
Mr. HUME thought the house of the Maeter Gunner of St.,
James's Park (General APLeod) might be dispensed with, he
having already 2000/. a-year from the country.
Mr. WARD—The measure of the House was only in the
Hon. Member's eyes. The houses of officers would be classi-
fied, and all that could he dispensed with would be.
The vote was then agreed to.
£0,585 was voted for Home and Foreign Stations of the Ist
class.
1:12,277 13s. 4d. for the second Class of the same Depart-
intent.
Mr. HUME objected to this item, a great part of which was
expended in the Vagaries, amongst others, of Sir T. Maitland.
After a few observations from Mr. W. SMITH, the vote was
agreed to.
£8,195 for defraying similar Salaries of the third Class.
Mr. HUME objected altogether to the Enfield Establish-
ment as not only useless, but interfering with the manufacturers
of this country as far as this Establishment was concerned.
Mr. WARD considered the Estalishment as very useful and
a saving to the country. The helmets made there for the Cui.
rassiers were not made at double the expence they would have
been elewhtre. The whole of the cuirasses cost only 35001. and
therefore there could not be a saving of 4000/.
Mr. HUME —I mentioned no sum ; I only•said they could
elsewhere be manufactured at a cheaper rate.
Mr. WA ftD—ln cases of future contracts for guns, it .4 ar-
ranged the gnntnakers of Birmingham shall have one-third,
and-those of London the same.
£6501 for the Storekeepers of the Honig and Foreign Sta.
tient.—Agreed to.
£10,820 for Contingencies for the Tower and Pall-mall.—
Agreed to, after some observations &can Mr. truest and Mr.
W. SMITII, •
£10,829 ld s. 3d. for Royal Engineers for 1823.—Agreed to,
after an objection to their numbers taken by Mr. Hustle.
£56,304,123. 9d. for the 'Royal Suppers and Miners, and
junior Officers of Artillery •for Fidd Works.—Agreed to.
£241,235, Bs. sd. for the Expences of the Royal'Regimentof
Artillery for Great Britain.
Mr. HUM E.propoeed to reduce that vote by 16,0001. which
could be saved in a different management of the. Staff, and that
without reducing a single man.
Mr. WARD said, it was necessary to keep up the Artillery
Offieers rather than the men, who could be much more easily
procured. Such was the arm opinion of the Master-General.
Mr. HUME—Last year it was said the-Duke Of Wellington'
looked over the Estimates and could not alter a man: After'
that, a fig for such authority. The men might be brigaded
differently, and thereby the saving he proposed could be madly
effected.
Sir U. BURGH said, the Estimates were -reduced on all oc.
casions where they could be.
Mr. WARD, however,
said, the Duke of Wellington could
tt not dispense with a tingle inn-.-1.821, although prospectively
he might; and this was now done by incorporating the Drivers
With the Foot Artillery, and thereby dispensing with 400 men.
Ili the Civil-state of the Ordnance every thing to prevent pecu.
'laden was done, and the accounts were audited every month for
-every place in which we had an Ordnance Offieer.
Mr. HUM; never heard of such a plan, although the 'Hon.
Member might have hail such a one ,in his head. llis.cibject
was not to take eway a single man, but by a different system of
brigading to save troops.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and a division took
place
For the amendment - 30
Against it . 69
Majority for the original vote —39
On the Vote of 8937/. for defraying the expenses of the Me.
dicta Establishment for the Civil Department of the Ordnance,
Mr. HUME thought the Artillery ought to be placed under
the Medical General Staff. He objected pertfcularly to the
continuance of the Direitor General, an Officer who only slid
the duty of the Sargeons of the Battalion and the Medical
Board. He therefore proposed as an amendment, that the vote
should be reduced to 5842/.

A divi4lon then took place on the amendment :
Ayes • - 27
•
Noes . 66

--3 S

Majority -
The Vote of 09371. was then agreed to.,
On the Vote of 68991. for the Military,College at Woolwie
being proposed,
Mr. fiUME said, it would be Charity to the young Cadets at
that College to reduce their number'from 130 to 50, as it was
impossible they could obtain each a Commission.
After a few words from Sir ULT.SSZEt I.lu anti, the Vote was
agreed to.
Also £140;1300 to defray the extraordinary expences of the
office of Ordnance. _

The following RUM were then
4:14460 for defraying+. expences paid by the Treasury on ac.
count of Ordnance Estimates from the year 1023.
£10,771 for expences of the Land Service of the Ordnance.
£107434 for Super.innuated Allowances in the Ordnante
Department.
After a short conversation in the Committee between Mr.

.111731 E, Mr. WARD, and Mr. W. Smr-ru, the vote was
agreed to. .
113,817 for Allowances to Ordnance Sanerannuated Officers.
£lOO,OOO for the Barrack Department tor the service of this
year.
£6250 for Compensations to Persons in the Irish Ordnance
Departments.
.#307,983 for the Barrack Department in Ireland.
Thelteport was then agreed to, and the Chairman ordered to
report the same to the House to-morrow.
SLAVERY.
Mr. W. SMITH :said, ,that his Hein. Friend the Member
for Bramber (Mr. Wilberforce) would have presented his Peti-
tion this night, from the,QUakers, for the gradual abolition of
slavery throurihoS►t *.British dominions, were .it not for the
indisposition of the Right` lion. Secretary for Foreign Affairs
(Mr. Canning);:. but he would.cettainly. present it on Wednes-
day next.
WAREHOUSING BILL.
On the motion of Mr., WaLt—tcE, the Warehousing Bill
was read a second

After-a few words from Mr. ROligartiON and Mr.- Alder-
man Tnostrsow, in recommendation of a-mature considera—
tion of the measure, it was ordered to be committed on Friday
next. _ _

---The Reports of the Committees of Ways and Means and
Supply were received, and agreed to.
The other Orders of the Day were then read, and postponed.;
and the House adjourned at One o'Clock.