The Sun.
London, England, 1823-05-03 00:00:00

that panel was the death of your clerk P—The panel might be
forthcoming if he were living..
By Mr. F. LEWIS.--I wish to know what was the number
of common councilmen on the panel of 89 names : I think that
was the last panel of 1823 ?—( Inaudible.)
Mr. F. LEWIS (addressing the Chair).—Perhaps, Sir, it may
save trouble if I move that this return be added to the others.
—(Hear !)
By a IVIEMDER.—Does the witness recollect any remarkable
circumstances attending the panel that is missing, which cir-
cumstances would appear on the face of it, if produced ?—lt was
not till Colonel Barry reminded me of it, that I recollected that
panel at all.
Then the witness is not aware of there being any particular
circumstances attending that panel which at all differs from the
general complexion of the others.—No, not the least.
By Mr. itlillaliT.—Are you aware of any special circum-
stances attending the panel of 1821 ?—(lnaudible.)
Do you recollect any thing remarkable in regard to the panel
of January, 1823 ?—I will state the facts as they appear on the
face of it.
I ask you, are You aware of any thing irregular or unusual
in that panel ?-1\ o.
By Mr. DENMAN.—Is the witness aware whether there are
' any other means of recovering the panel ; whether it can be got
at from any other sources, now that his clerk is dead ?—No.
Not in the sheriff's office ? May there not be copies kept
there ?—Possibly there may be.
Does the witness think he can in any way get at the panel, or
at a copy of the panel, of January, 1817 ?—if I were in Dub-
lin, I dare say I could.
Could the witness send for it?—Yes, I could.
And could he send in the like manner for that of January,
1823 ?—Of course I could.
Anti also for the panel of 1814, of the month of January?
' —Yes.
Mr. DEN3I A N (addressing the chair.)—Then I shall beg to
' move, Sir, that the witness be desired to obtain these papers.
By Mr. It, Man:rm.—Was not the witness acting clerk of
the Crown for sortie time in Ireland ?—I was.
And for what counties ?—For Meath, Westmeath, Queen's
County, Kildare, and Dublin.
hit run in those pans of Ireland an object with gentlemen
to make their appearance at the assizes and be on the grand
jury P—l think gentlemen are always anxious to be on the
grand jury.
[The next two or three questions were inaudible.]
,'By Mr. Bnows Low.—Was there, to your knowledge, any
thing unusual or irregular in the mode of constituting the panel,
before the grand jury was sworn in in January, 11123 ?—lt was
unusual to have 14 common councilmen, or more than one-half
of the grand jury, so sworn ; but whether this tray be irregular
or not Ido not know. It is unusual certainly.
By Mi. I.:Ltda.—Can the witness say whether Mr. Moore
and his family are old and settled residents in the city of Dub-
lin cannot say whether they are or not.
Does not the witness believe, from the circumstance of Mr.
Moore's being agent of an insurance company, that he is an
old resident of the city of Dublin ?—I don't know.
By Mr. S. RICE.—Can the witness state, from the return to
the panel of January, 1823, whether there are upon it the names
of any Roman Catholics ?—I believe there are not.
Can the witness state of his own knowledge whether, in any
former panel of commissions for grand juries, there are the
names of Roman Catholics ?—That is really a matter upon
which I am not at all informed.
Ilave you ever known a Roman Catholic serve under these
commissions for grand juries ?—Within my own knowledge, I
canot say that I have.
By Mr. linowieLow.—Besides the two persons whose names
you have mentioned, state what others were afterwards brought
before the grand jury 2—l don't recollect.
Have you heard that. they have been summoned to appear at
the bar of this house ?---1 es.
By Mr. PLUI*ETT.—Has the witness at any time, and
when, sent the six panels to the house of, any person ?—I sent
the six panels (of January, 1823) to the house of the Attorney-
General for Ireland.
Was that on the evening of the first day upon which the
grand jury sat ?—lt was.
Was the witness sent by the foreman of the grand jury on
the-evening of that day P—l was.
How ?-11), direction of the Court.
Is it usual for the Court to do s0?-4 believe not.
Have you ever seen them do so P—l don't know.
The witness was next examined by Sir J. NEWPORT and
Mr. ',Now sr Low ; but we were again left in total ignorance of
what was stated.
By Mr. BROVORAIL—Were you in your present office in
the year 1811 was.
1)o you know of any bills having been preferred in that year
at the suit of Sir E. Littlelialea on a charge of bribery ?-1 es.
What became of those bills?—They were ignored.
flow many bills were there ? —Two.
Do you know, of your own knowledge, of any further pro.
ceetlings having taken place upon those charges P—l have seen
a copy of an ex officio information filed by the late Attorney.
General, Mr. &twin.
On the same charges, after the bills were ignored ?—Yes ;
immediately afterwards.
Were any proceedings had upon that information ?—Judg-
ment went against the defendant for want of plea.
There are two kinds of grand juries in Dublin, are there not—
term and commission gratin juries ?....There are three, the term,
commission, and sessions.
Then in Dublin there are three kinds of grand juries; but in
the other counties of Ireland are there not only two ?—Yes, and
they are called the assize and sessions grand juries.
What are the offences which the commission grand jury deals
with ?—Cases of felony and misdemeanour.
What do the sessions grand jury deal with ?—Matters of a
criminal description, but of a lighter character, assaults, and
petty larcenies, ace.
What are the duties of the term grand juries P—They make
presentments of money.
I don't understand this ;it is all Irish—(a laugh)—state what
you mean ?—They direct money to be assessed in the city of
Dublin.
In what way are the inhabitants assessed? Are they assessed
according to their property P—l believe with reference to mi-
nisters' rnoney.—(A laugh.)
We are getting deeper and deeper into ignorance. For what
purposes is the money which the term grand juries present?—
For a variety of purposes ?
Name them ?---For the support of giols, bridges, and all
public works in Dublin.
Is any of it applied to defray the expenee of lighting and
paving e
Mr. DAWSC)N rose to order, and the witness having with.
drawn by the direction of the Chairman, the Hon. Member
expressed an opinion that the course of examination which the
Learned Gentleman had adopted was not calculated to eluci-
date the business before the House, and that was merely west-
ing time.
Mr. BROUGIIAM said, lie had had misgivings that there
was something in the state of Irelands and in every thing con.
nected with the administration of justice in that country, which
would make it a very ticklish thing to ask a single question
during the inquiry in which the House was engaged.—(Hear,
hear 1)—Ile was not, therefore, much surprised at the objection
which had just been made. The lion. Member who made the
Objection would only allow the house a farthing candle glim-
mering before their eyes, instead of a torch, to light them
through what lie foresaw would be neither a short nor a simple
examination. Now that the Ilouse bad, God be thanked, for
the first time entered into an investigation of the gross and fla-
grant abuse of the administration of justice in Ireland, it was
nee Friary that every circumstance should be inquired into which
tended to throw a light upon the subject.—(Hear U.—He found
it impossible to get on one step without being informed of the
nature of the grand juries in Ireland. The Howie had heard
the witness speak of term, session, and commission grand
juries. These distinctions were unknown in England. To
obtain information upon that point had been the object of' his
questions. Whether any thing very delicate or corrupt might
be exposed by the answers be could not say. 7( Hear 1)
Sir G. HILL said lie would not offer any impediment to the
course of inquiry adopted by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman.
Ile, for his own part, would ask any question which he thought
likely to elucidate the aubjecL—(llear !)
Mr. BROUGHAM gave the Right Hon Bart. credit for his
manly support. His conduct did hint infinite credit.
Mr. DA W'SON withdrew his objection, the witness was re.
called and Mr. BROUGHAM proceeded with his examination :
Yousay that the term juries levy money for the support of
public works?—Yes.
Taking the term and sessions grand juries together, do they
levy, money for the payment of the salaries of different officers ?
Y es.
What officers P—The clerk of the Crown.—(A laugh.)—l am
sure the money could not be better employed.—(Laughter.)
What other officers are paid by the money thus levied ?
The clerks of the peace, and the ten clerks, all gaolers, the
officers belonging to the court, &c.
Are those officers or any of them appointed by the corpora.
tion of Dublin ?—The ten clerks and the gaolers are so appoint-
ed, but as I am not the officer of the corporation, I am not pos-
sessed of further information on the subject.
Do you recollect any. other purposes to which the many levied
by the term grand juries is applied besides those which you
have mentioned P—l can't charge my memory.
Is it not applied to the payment of the clothing of convicts ?
—Of course that comes under the head of gaol expences.
Who gives the contracts for clothing the convicts P—The
grand jury.
Are the contracts made by open bidding P—The witness he-
sitated, and Mr. Brougham added, Oh, you do not under-
stand that in Ireland ?"—(Laughter.)—ln England, when a