The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-30 00:00:00

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which it was stated that the return could
be easily famished. (The Noble Lord here read the
setter stating that the number of deaths could be sup-
plied, and even the names of the pardes, and that the
deaths this year were twenty to one as compared with
those of any former year.) He would wish to know whe-
the Government were prepared or not to send round a
circular, asking for the mortality returns w hich had oc-
curred in those periods which he had before named.
Mr. LA.BOUC HERE said that on a former occa-
sion he had stated that he was not prepared
to deny that a great mortality had taken place. He had
also promised that, as far as.any correct information
could be obtained, it should be afforded. The Govern-
ment had consented to returns of the coroners' inquests,
and they had also resorted to other means to obtain in-
formation. The Noble Lord, had directed his attention
to a method, namely, by means of the registry kept by
the clergy of the Established Church, and in conse-
quence of the suggestion he wrote to Mr. Redington,
who had made the requisite inquiries, and it was the
opinion of many Protestant clergymen that the registrit s
In the parishes could not be relied upon, for they were
only kept of those who were burid in churchyards ad-
joining the church, and not in open churchyards. The
Noble Lord had now called his attention to a new
method, namely, through the medium of the Roman
Catholic priesthood. Now, he apprehended they
had no power to enforce such a return, but he
could assure the Hon. Gentleman that he would again
inquire, and if it was possible to obtain them, and if they
were to be relied upon, the Government would cheer-
fully consent.
After a few words from Lord JOHN MANNERS,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL begged of the House to re-
_ _

member, that already the public officers of Ireland were
taxed almost beyond their power in preparing these re-
turns, and therefore some allowances ought to be made
for delays ; until the returns which had already been
ordered had been more advanced than they were at
present, it was not advisable to call for other returns.
After a few words from Mr. DISRAELI and Mr. W. S.
O'BRIEN,
Mr. P. SCROPE recommended that there should be
taken an accurate census of the destitute of Ireland.
Mr. LABOUCHERE was understood to say that such
Eat had long ago been ordered.
POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
The House then went into Committee on this Bill.
Mr. P. SCROPE moved the insertion of a clause
similar to clause 10 in the Destitute Persons (Ireland)
Bill, for enforcing performance of thetuardians' duties,
and also a clause enlarging the maximum extent of land
which the guardians of any union are empowered to
purchase or hire and occupy with their workhouse, from
twelve to two hundred acres, and likewise that any
buildings hired or erected by them upon or near to such
land, be considered a part of such workhouse. This
system had been tried in England, where it worked well,
tending very materially to reclaim the bog land of the
country. At Charlton-upon-Medlock, the guardians had
attached a large portion of chat moss to their work-
house, and set their able bodied paupers to work upon
it, and the result had been that land which was origi-
nally not worth a shilling was now valued at 50s. an
acre. Now, could not some of the bogs of Ireland be
reclaimed in the same way ? The plan was economical
and fair, and he could see no objection to its adoption.
Mr. W. S. O'BBIEN thought the guardians ought to
have the power suggested by the clause of the Hon.
Member for Stroud, and he thanked that Hon. Gentle-
Man most cordially for having brought the matter
forward.

Mr. SFIARMAN CRAWFORD agreed with the
principle of the clause, and trusted Government would
allow it to be inserted in the Bill.

Mr. SHAW deplored as much as anybody the con-
dition of the labouring poor of Ireland, but he thought
at the same time that to pauperise the whole of the
people, would render their condition eve* more into-
lerable than it was at present.
Colonel RAWDON thought that the great difficulty
Was how to employ the paupers; he thought, however,
that a system of labour might be obtained from the
Paupers in the cultivation of land in such a manner as to
provide for their own necessities.
Sir G. GREY considered that the Bill, as it at pre-
sent stood, was the best that could be devised to meet
the circumstances of the case ; ho should, therefore,
feel it his duty to oppose the introduction of the clause.
Ile hoped that by carrying out the system of the re-
clamation of waste lands, and the other measures of the
Government, that ample employment would be found
for the pauper population of Ireland.
Mr. I'. SCROPE thought that if this clause were not
adopted, the workhouses would be filled with able-bodied
Paupers able to work, but no work at all provided for
them. He thought that those persons who considered
that, to the people of Ireland, that country would be-
come a land of Cockayne if the workhouse dietary were
to be thrown open to them without labour, placed but
little reliance on the vast resources of the country.
After a few words from Sir. G. GREY and Mr. SHAW,
Sir 11. W. BARRON said that the poor labourers of
Ireland were almost entirely ignorant of the principles
of agriculture so common both in England and Scot-
land, and he thought that the establishment of model
farms in connexion with the workhouses of Ireland
Would be of great service to the people of that country,
and by compelling the paupers to work on those farms,
great portion of the expense of their maintenance
Would be saved. The plan would also be useful as
a test of poverty, for it could not be supposed that a
taaa would continue longer in dependence upon the
parish by being compelled to work, than if he were
''ai4tained in the house without work.
Lord J. RUSSELL thought that this measure ought
tot
-- to be treated as a measure for more than one dis-
tinct object. When the Government proposed a mea-
sure for public works it was their duty to make it as
effectual as possible, and when they proposed a measure
such as the pre sent for the relief of the poor, it was also
their duty to make that measure as effectual as possile.
With respect to the establishment of model farms,b he
did not think they could be carried out effectually in
connexion with a measure for the relief of the pauper.
Colonel ROLLESTON said, if the proposition of the
&I'm'. Member for Stroud were carried to the extent he
Proposed, he questioned whether the beneficial results
he anticipated would follow. He thought, however, that
41 a modified form it would be productive of good.
Sir W. JAMES thought the measure was a necessary
experiment, but he considered it was accompanied with
considerable danger, and if care were not taken in car-
qing it into operation, very different effects from those
contemplated might be the consequence. This he
Thought was particularly the case with regard to admi-
nistering relief to the °destitute, when considerable im-
Position might be practised.
Mr. LAWLESS hoped to see the time when not a
single able-bodied man would be seen enclosed in a work-
house and that pauper labour would find employment
from other resources.

After a few words from Sir H. W. BARRON,
Mr. CURTEIS objected to the clause, as it might
table landlords to play into the hands of each other.
.i.A.l.ter a few words from Sir George Grey, Lord John
44anners, Mr. Shaw, and Mr. V. Stewart,
Mr. P. SCROPE withdrew his amendment.
Mr. GREGORY then moved the following clause:—
4tl be masted, that if it shall be proved, to the satis-
'
faetion of the board of guardians, at any time, that any
t`teupier of land within such union, rated at a net annual
b
'lBl4e, not exceeding 51., shall be willing to give up pos-
-8,48i0n of the said land, whether held under lease or as
ittliint.et-will, and to emigrate together with all persons
!Is') may be dependent upon hina for their support ind
sumintenance ; and that such occupier shall have been
approved by her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State
for the Colonies, or such person as he may appoint for
hat purpose, as a fit and propsr person to be admitted
en emigrant ; arid that the immediate lessor of snch
13cupier is willing, upon the emigration of such occupier
itlld his family, and upon the surrender of the land
i!eoupied by him, to forego any claim for rent which
may have upon the said occupier, and also to
provide two-thirds of such fair and reasonable sum as
nail be required for the emigration of such occupier and
7,1 a gamily • then, and in such case, it shell be lawful for
'e board of guardians of such union, upon payment of
inch last mentioned sum, to charge upon the rates
°(' the electoral division, and to pay over to such
erson, and in such manner as shall be directed by the
oor-law Commissioners in aid of the emigration of such
faceopier, any sum not excaeling one-half of the sum
e°etributed arid paid by such ?immediate lessors as afore-
:aid, notwithstanding that any sum or sums so charged
and paid may exceed in any one year one shilling in the
on the rates of such electoral division, and not-
Ohatanding that such occupier and his family may not
9 for have been, inmates of the workhouse of such
beton.
The clause was read a first time.
S. O'BRIEN wished to move the following
clauses, in substitution of that of his Hon. Friend ; he
*4.°41c1 not, however, press them upon the House :
t " whereas it appears that in the formation of elec-
-I°ltl divisions pauperism has been so allocated, in re-
Ppect of the property liable for its relief, as to cause the
tie.ssure of poor-rate taxation to be very unequal :" be
mtherefore enacted that the Poor law Commissioners
all revise and reconstitute the electoral divisions of
: 'several unions in such a manner as that the
riEttl,perism of each district shall bear to the property
"e for ite relief, as nearly an uniform proportion
throughout And
each union as circumstances will allow.
h4cl be it enacted, that for each electoral division there
j 441,1 be formed a relief committee, consisting of the
b,,ltsces of the peace residing or possessing rateable pro-
in such electoral division; of the Roman Catholic,
itr;scopalian Protestant, and Presbyterian clergymen
el'BllY officiating in the churches existing in such
ppgeetoral aldivision; of the guardians of the poor elected for
_eh electoral division; and of wardens elected in the
wr`)Portion of one for every inhabitants of such
eetoral division, according to the census of 1841; which
I'd ens shall be elected at the same time and in the
same And manner as the gaurdians of the poor are elected.
tiped be it enacted, that the relief committees, consti-
afe aforesaid, shall consider and determine who
4, the persons entitled to receive relief in the
ererel electoral divisions for which they act, and shall
se,teY their opinion with respect to the claims of each
Person who may apply for relief to the board of
p,,r4rdians, and shall state whether, in their opinion, the
ho.-48°11 Ito applying ought to be relieved in the work-
h.s'e or out of it. And " whereas much inconvenience
th!' been found to result from the great size of several of
" unions of Ireland ;" be it enacted, that the Poor-
tini Commissioners
shall revise and reconstitute the
u
be.,fla, so that no union shall contain more than one
e gre(i and fifty thousand acres. And whereas it has
eos,tl found that the rate required to repay the original
tip('_of building the workhouses presses very unequally
Prsperty in the several unions of Iretand : be it
(lir 'led, that the repa) meet of he loans borrowed under
tkirieetienie the Poor-lavY Commi,sioners, for the construe-
r4te the workhouses, shill be defrayed by means of a
3140 4k-cording to the tie veluJime, a, an uniform
And upon rateable property throughout Ireland.
titi„ eas it has been found that ihe standard of
miitteel .
ers very much hl the several unions of

Ireland ; be it therefore enacted, that the Poor. law
Commissioners shall take immediate steps for obtaining
an uniform valuation of rateable property throughout
Ireland, in so far as the same may be attained by the
Acts now in force relative to Ireland. And be it enacted,
that persons receiving fixed incomes from rateable pro-
perty by way of jointure, rent-charge, or any other an-
nuity, not being created in satisfaction for debt, shall be
liable to all rates levied for the relief of the poor in the
same manner as if the incomes so received were re-
ceivable as rent. And be it enacted, that it shall
be lawful for the guardians of any union, if
they shall so think fit, to put out to nurse and to con-
tract from half-Sear to half-year for the maintenance of
any orphans or deserted children whom they may
consider fit objects for relief, and to order payment
out of the rates, and charge against the union at large
such sums as may be agreed upon between the guar-
dians and the persons so contracting for the main-
tenance of such orphans or deserted children: pro-
vided always, that no such contract or payment shall
continue after any orphan or deserted child, for whose
maintenance such contract shall have been made, shell
have attained the age of thirteen years; and provided
also, that such children shall be brought before the
guardians at least twice in each year during tho sub-
sistence of such contract; and that in entering into such
contract, due provision shall be made for their educa-
tion and training in habits of industry, during the
period of such their maintenance out of the workhouse.
And whereas it is expedient to remove the existing
restrictions which tend to prevent boards of guardians
from assisting emigration, be it therefore enacted, that
it shall be lawful for the guardians of any union, sub-
ject to the regulations of the Poor law Commissioners,
to be made with the consent of her Majesty's Principal
Secretary of State for the Colonial Department, to
assist any poor person who is a fit subject for relief, and
who shall have been approved by the Commissioners, to
emigrate to a British colony, and to charge the ex-
penses of such emigration on the union, or electoral
division, to which such person would be chargeable if
relieved by the guardians.
Sir G. GREY said he preferred the clause of the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Gregory), which tended to promote
what was very desirable, namely, emigration. He had
a few verbal objections to the clause, which he would
suggest at the proper time.
Mr. P. HOWARD said that it would be quite a new
principle to afford money to parties for emigration out
of the poor-rates. He would suggest that after the
word emigrate there should be inserted " to any British
colony."
Mr. HAMILTON considered that there would be
many cases were such words would inflict a positive
hardship.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he had no objection to the
clause as it then stood.
Mr. P. HOWARD said that if a man emigrated out
of his own private resources, he had a right to go where
he liked, but where he received public money he ought
to go to a British colony.
Mr. TRELAWNEY hoped that the words would not
be inserted.
The clause was then agreed to and inserted in the Bill.
Mr. GREGORY then rose to move the following
clause :—" And be it further enacted, that no person
who shall be in the occupation, whether under lease or
agreement, or as tenant at will, or from year to year, or
in any other manner whatsoever, of any land of greater
extent than the of a statute acre, shall be deemed
and taken to be a destitute poor person, under the pro-
visions of this Act, or of any former Act of Parliament ;
nor shall it be lawful for any board of guardians to grant
any relief whatever, in or out of the workhouse, to any
such occupier, his wife, or children ; and if any person
having been such occupier as aforesaid, shall apply to any-
board of guardians Kir relief, as a destitute poor person,
it shall not be lawful to such guardians to grant such
relief until they shall be satisfied that such person has
bend fide and without collusion 'absolutely parted with
and surrendered any right or title which he may have
had to the occupation of any land over and above such
extent as aforesaid, of one quarter of a statute acre."
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN said that as the Government
seemed prepared to concede the clause, it was almost
useless for him to object to it; but he could not allow it
to pass without entering his protest. An applicant
might only require relief for the time being, but the
effect of the clause would be to render him perpetually
a pauper.
Mr. CURTEIS said he would be sorry if the Go-
vernment would accede to the proposition which he
would tell them would be very unpopular in this coun-
try. What was a quarter of an acre?—it was nothing;
and supposing a man had a lease of the land it might be
impossible for him to render it up in order to qualify
himself for relief.
Sir G. GREY said that a number of persons had been
applying for relief who were small landholders, a class
of persons who were a principle source of the poverty of
the country. The subject had attracted the most serious
attention of the Government, and they considered that
the principle was good, as it would be a method to remedy
the evil to which he had alluded. There must he some
limit placed. They could not oblige a man to give up his
cottage or garden-ground. As the clause then stood, it
would come into operation immediately after the passing
of the Act, and the difficulty would be met by inserting
after the word " that" the words " from and alter the Ist
of November next."
After a few words from Mr. NEWDEGATE,
Mr. BELLEW said that he conceived this clause most
essential to the well-working of the Act. There were
an immense number of holders of land in Ireland
where farmers were under five acres, and who by retain-
ing them, and still becoming entitled to relief, would
most seriously injure the country. The Bill could not
be complete without such a clause,
Mr. POULETT SCROPE said that the Bill would
cause a most serious social revolution in Ireland, and if
it could effect its object quietly, it would be desirable ;
but if in the event of another famine, all these small
holders were to be compelled to give up their farms,
how could they be provided with labour or subsistence
when the crisis was passed. He would wish to know if
the Right lion. Gentleman considered it consistent with
the principle of the Bill, that a man who might suffer
from temporary distress or sickness should be compelled
to give up his farm to obtain relief. He thought it would
be far better to leave the matter to the discretion of the
board of guardians to give relief or withhold it in cer-
tain cases. Unless some such power were given, the
Bill would have a most ruinous effect.
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD was not disposed to
deny that some limitation was necessary in the case of
holders of land, but still be could not agree with the
clause as it then stood. Suppose a man were overtaken
by sickness or any ether casualty, and was compelled to
seek relief, was he to be deprived of his land se cottage
and the well-earned fruits of his labour ? Could not
some relief' be extended in such cases in the way of
loans ? He thought that the board of guardians should
have a discretion in such a case.
Mr. BELLEW said that in the case of a man being
sick, there was the sum of 100,0001. per annum levied in
Ireland for hospitals and dispensaries. The poor were
as well taken care of in the event of sickness as they
possibly could be
Mr. YOUNG said that the Hon. Member for Stroud
had said that this clause would produce a sudden revolu-
tion in Ireland by suddenly reducing men from being'
landholders to paupers. There was nothing in the clause
that would at all accelerate a man's fall, It merely pro-
vided that, in the event of his becoming chargeable upon
the poor. rates, he should no longer retain the land which
he could no longer cultivate with benefit to himself or
to the country.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said that he wished to explain
what he had said. He had strenuously impressed upon the
Government that in no instance should the tools of a
man's trade be taken from him. The operation of the
present clause was so stringent that a man's tools were
taken from him, and he had wished to provide against
any such fact under the present law.
After a few words from Mr. WILLIAMS and Mr.
VILLIERS,
Mr. S. O'BRIEN thought the clause was neces-
sary for the welfare of the agriculture of Ireland. There
never would be a system of money wages introduced
into that country, except by a provision of this kind;
and he was therefore glad the Government had given
their sanction to the principle of the clause.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said there was this difference
between the poor labourer in England and Ireland, that
whereas in England he had a cottage built for him, in
Ireland he built it himself on land which he held at will.
This ought to bo taken into consideration in dealing with
a question of this kind.
Mr. GREGORY replied to some objections urged by
previous speakers to the clause.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL thought the clause would
be a very useful one. It would do away with that
class who were half labourer and half farmer, but' nei-
ther
the one nor the other. He gave the principle of
the Bill his decided support.
After a few words from Mr. CURTEIS,
Colonel RAWDON supported: the clause, which he
thought would prove a very useful provision in the Bill.
Mr. ARCHBOLD said ho had known holders of
twenty acres of land applying for work under the La-
bour-rate Act, and there were cases in which the chil-
dren of holders of ten acres actually were employed, and
employed, perhaps, even to the present day. He would
support the clause under the impression that if such
parties would continue to ask relief, the sooner they
were off the Land the better.
Mr. SHAW supported the clause.
Mr. Alderman HUMPHERY thought it would be too
bad to deprive such small holders of land of the relief
which the Bill would give them. He would suggest as
an amendment that holders of five acres, instead of one-
half acre, should be excluded from the benefit of the Bill.
Sir GEORGE GREY said he thought the Hon. Mem-
ber did not understand the nature of the clause. Ac-
cording to his amendment, a person might hold four and
three-quarter acres, and yet be entitled to relief.
The original amendment was then agreed to.
On the motion being put that the clause as amended
stand part of the Bill,
Mr. P. SCROPE objected to it as severe and uncalled

for.
The Gallery was then cleared for a division, when
there appeared.
For the clause
Against it
Majority for the clause --110
The clause was, therefore, ordered to stand part of
the Bill.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN then moved that the foflow-
ing clauses should be added to the Bill:—And " whereas
it appears that in the formation of electoral divisions
pauperism has been so allocated, in respect of the pro_
perty liable for its relief, as to cause the pressure ol
poor-rate taxation to be very unequal:" be it therefore
enacted, that the Poor-law Commissioners shall revise
and reconstitute the electoral divisions of the several
unions in such a manner as that the pauperism of each
d.strict shall b •ar to the property liable for its relief, as
n.-arly au unit Orin proportion throughout each union ti!'
circumstances will allow. And be it enacted, that for each
electoral division there shall be formed a relief 0111Alit.