The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-06 00:00:00

DISTRESS IN IRELAND.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition
from the rate payers of Ballinrobe, praying their Lord-
ships to adopt speedy measures for the re:icf of Irish
distres9.

LABOURING POOR (IRELAND) BILL.
The report on this Bill was brought up by the Earl
of Shaftesbury.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, in giving no-
tice that this Bill would be read a third time on Mon-
day next, he might take that opportunity of stating to
the Noble Lord (Brougham), in reference to his ques-
tion last night affecting Captain Wynne, that several
papers and returns had been moved for in the other
House of Parliament, and among the rest a return of all
the names of the men who had been dismissed from the
public employment, these amounting to about 1,000 or
2,000.
Earl RADNOR-9,ooo.—(Laughter.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—WeII, perhaps the
return was not the more possible by the alteration.—
(Laughter.) But he must say that Captain Wynne was
still retained in the public service.
Lord BROUGIIA.M. was perfectly satisfied with the
answer of the Noble Marquis, but he must say, that
anything less in keeping with the case than the names
of the parties dismissed, he never heard ; in fact, it
raised an entirely different issue.
Earl RADNOR wished to know whether the Noble
Marquis could state what prospect there was of a
diminution being effected in the number of men em
ployed on the public works in Ireland?
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was not the least
surprised at the question put by his Noble Friend, and
not at all surprised that much anxiety prevailed on the
subject to which it bad reference. lle could assure
his Noble Friend that he participated in that
anxiety. It undoubtedly had been the intention of the
Government that the public works should be gradually
discontinued; and the reason they bad not carried out
their intentien was owing to the increasing destitu-
tion in Ireland, and the scarcity, or rather the
absolute failure, of any other means by which they
could gain their support. Another reason was the dit-
Acuity, or rather the impossibility, of carrying at once
into operation those measures which the Govern-
ment had proposed as a substitute, one of which
had recently been pawed, and no time had
been lost, in forming committees under the Bill.
But if any new works were commenced a report of
their nature and their object would be laid before their
Lordships. He hoped that, at no distant period, a
diminution in those public works would take place, and
that steps would be taken to put an end to the
abuses which had been stated to exist.
Lord BROUGHAM entertained the same opinion as
his Noble Friend (Earl Radnor), as he considered they
had got into a plan, the inevitable consequence of which
was that it could not stop where it was.
Lord MOUNTCASHEL said it was to the interest of
the landlords to diminish the expense of those works as
much as possible, but when they found people dying oil
the road sides, in the fields, and in wretelhd hovels, he
anticipated that they would not act wisely if they
stopped those works suddenly, and the' eby deprived those
of a subsistence who were at present employed.
After a few words from Earl RADNOR, the report
was agreed to, and the Bill ordered to be read a third
time on Monday next.

SECONDARY PUNISHMENTS—CUSTODY OF
OFFENDERS AND PRISONS' BILLS.
Earl GREY rose to move the second reading of the
Custody of Offenders' Bill. The object of the Bill
itself was but of little importance, being to assimilate
the law of Ireland relating to offenders to the law as it
existed on the subject in Great Britain. By the exist-
ir.g British law it was at the discretion
of. the Crown to send offenders either out of
the country, to the prisons of Pentonville or
Milibank, or to the hulks. But the power which
the law of Great Britain gave to the Crown did not
exist in Ireland; there was no power to dispose of offen.
ders but to send them to Van Dieman's Land or Norfolk
Island. To effect the assimilation of the law of the two
countries on this subject was the whole scope of the pre-
sent Bill. There was another Bill, the second reading of
which ho also proposed to move to-night, but in itself
it was not of much importance. The object of it was to
effect a necessary change in the constitution of the go-
verning bodies of the prisons of Pentonville, Milbank,
and Parkhurst. That though these Bills were not of
much importance by themselves, he thought it right at
the present time to call the attention of their Lordships
to the whole subject of secondary punishments, because
these were not the only legislative measures of the kind
that would be required. The change which had taken
place in the country's policy had no less an object in view
than changing the whole system of punishment hitherto
adopted—no less than the virtual abolition of transpor-
tation. By law, the Executive Government might
make this change without applying to Pediment ; but
considering, the importance of the step, he thought it
better to bring the subject formally before the House, as
he considered the Government would not be performing
its duty in doing so without distinctly calling
the attention of Parliament to it. There was
no subject of greater importance than the treatment
of felons. It was necessary for the existence of society
that the punishments should be such as to deter offenders
from the commission of crime, and at the same time such
as were calculated to reform and improve the unhappy
object of the punishment. This was the great ob-
ject that legislators had to keep steadily in view.
These were objects of the highest importance, at the
same time no less important eas the difficulty of finding
the remedy. It was a subject on which various plans
had been adopted by the vations civilised nations of the
world, and he believed that nowhere could it be said
that that great and difficult problem—the discovery of
the best mode of reclaiming offenders that that
great problem had received a complete and satis-
factory solution, Bet although the experience of
late years, both in that and the other countries of
Europe, enakleil them to judge better than they could
have done a few years ago shat measures it would
be the more expedient to adopt, they were still far, very
far, from being in a condition to place the subject on a
perfectly satisfactory footing. He had already stated
that in the change which her Majesty's Government
had determined to introduce—had considered
ought to be introduced—into the policy of the
country, that change extended to no less
than the virtual abolition of transportation,
because when he said transportation, he did not include
the punishment of offenders at Bermuda and Gibraltar.
It was one of the main features of transportation, that
in the majority of cases the persons on whom that sen-
tence had been passed, where parties were removed to a
remote part of the world, at the termination of their
aentences remained in the colony, and did not return to
this counts ey; thus the country was relieved of the
presence of those criminals, which, as he had already
said, was one of the main objects of this
punishment. But in Gibraltar and in Bermuda
this was not the case ; on the contrary, criminals
were not allowed to remain in those places, but were
brought back to England at the public expense. The
punishment at Gibraltar and Bermuda was therefore to
be considered only as an extension of the hulk system,
not as a punishment of transportation. It was only that
a e. rtain number of criminals who would have been
otherwise sent to the hulks at Portsmouth and
Woolwich, had been sent to Bermuda and Gi-
bralter, because their labour there was found
exceedingly valuable to the country. But, defining
in this manner what he meant by transportation,
he said that they proposed to di' away with the system of
transportation ae hitherto adopted. He could not be-
lieve that any of their Lordships who had read the late
papers on this subject, and compared them with the
papers of former years—that any of their Lordships
who had looked at the measure adopted on this subject,
would think that it was not an absolute necessity—he could
not use a lighter word—an absolute necessity to effect the
change of policy which the Government intended to adopt.
Instead of a recapitulation of what bad passed upon that
subject, it would be enough to show their Lordships that
such a necessity really existed. Be would remind their
Lordships that the system of transportation was
very different formerly from that system which
had of late years existed. The convicts sent
to New South Wales and Van Dieman's Land were not
kept in the charge of the Government, but they were
sentto private individuals, to whom they were placed in
the
situation—he might almost say—of slaves, because
they were compelled to serve those persons, when, accord-
ing to thcaraerlatio.ns, wages were not eliow,,d to be paid
and they
only received their food and ciething, and in
the event of Lestor neglect of orders their punish-
ment was of the a
msummary kind, for they were flog-
ged by order ofaystemag•airre. It was to all intents
and purposes s slavery which then existed
in the colonies. In the
which he had the honour oft being 37 a Committee, of
a member, was
appointed in the other House of Parliament to consider
this subject. That Committee sat both in the session of
1837, and the firllowing session, and it too a
of evidence on the subject. The result to ":a deal
which
rt
Committee came was, he thought, as well as he conld
the
re-
member, without a single difference of opinion among the
Committee—which was numerous, and cumposed of Sir
R. Peel, Lord John Russell, and various other gentle-
men—and it was must ably presided over by Sir we
Molesworth—was that there was an absolute neces-
sity for doing away with the system of assignment. The
system was one of the grossest inequality. and injustice,
for it was a matter of perfect accident whether
that which was intended to be in the nature of a punish- !
meat, for if the man got a good master— ono disposed to t
be indulgent—be was not punished at all. Criminals