The Sun.
London, England, 1840-02-25 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, FEE. '24.
At Four o'Clock the LORD CHANCELLOR, the Earls

Of S7IAFTESEURY and CLARENDON, took their scats on
the Woolsack as her Majesty's Commissioners, for the

purpose of giving the Royal Assent to the Transfer in
Aids Bill.
After which their Lordships adjourned to Five
o'clock, when
The Marquis of WESTMINSTER presented a
petition relating, he said, to.a number of Charities, which
were placed in an awkward position by the Munici-
pal Reform Bill. The Noble Marquis spoke in so
low and indistinct a tone, that it was impossible to col-
lect the designations of the petitioners, or the particular

charities to which the petition referred. He was under-
stood to say that the Municipal Reform Bill contained
clauses which involved charities (formerly under the con-
trol of Municipal Corporations) in great uncertainty as
well as expense in the appointment of trustees ; so that,
in some instances, the whole of the funds were swal-
lowed up in applications to the Court of Chancery ;
and, in others, the trusts could not be fulfilled, from

the want of authority in the trustees.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the griev-
ance of which the petition complained was real, and was
occascd by the Municipal Reform Bill. That Act
very clearly determined the estates of the old Corpora
tions, but it did not determine into whose hands the le-
gal estates passed. He (the Lord Chancellor) had
been applied to to transfer such estates, and he would
have been very glad to do so, if he had any means of
determining in whom the estate was. There was an-
other inconvenience to which those charities were sub-
jected by the law in question, as when the power over the
charity estate was in a number of persons, it was necessary
to have the concurrence of the whole to do certain acts,
which was sometimes impossible. There was another
inconvenience, attended with still more difficulty—that
was in the case of charities whose funds were too
small to defray the expense of an application to the
Court of Chancery, to renew trusteesiand continue
the trusts. He would feel it his duty to submit to the
House a remedy for those things, if any were sug-
gested to him. At all events, he thought that what
was suggested by his Noble Friend (the Marquis of
Westminster) namely, the fixing of the legal estate,
could he effected by an Act of Parliament.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY wished to
ask a question concerning a paper that bad been
laid on the table relative to the temporary occupa-
tion by the French Government of King's Island, in
Port Mahon. The Noble Earl had stated he was
quite aware of what had taken place, and it was quite
satisfactory, but it did not appear so to him ; he referred
to a letter in the dispatch, No. 4. (The Noble Mar-
quis then read a long extract from the dispatch, and
proceeded.) It appeared to him there was a great differ-
ence between occupying houses and barns in the island of
Minorca, and occupying King's Island, in the centre of the
ports ; there was not a single reason given why a build-
ing and barns upon the island of Minorca were not
given instead of this island, and he believed that any
one who knew the position of this island, would state
that if the French were to have possession of
it for two years, unless they were prevented
from making fortifications, if ever we returned,to a con-
test with that country he was convinced it would be on
the waters of the Mediterranean ; and therefore he
could not but look with jealousy at their possession
of an island in the centre of that port.
He wished to know therefore whether any
communication had taken place, to know why a build-
_ _

„v, ......
ing and out-house in the Island of Minorca was not
given instead of a separate island. He thought the
subject very important, and on some future day should
bring forward some motion on the subject.
The Earl of CLARENDON said he did not see
what right the Government had to call upon the
Spanish Government for not having adopted a resolu-
tion of a Committee of the Cortes. This, amongst
other matters in the Committee, had been used
to excite great opposition against the Govern-
ment. The lease having been granted they saw
no reason to rescind it. The warehouse and hospital
so leased; belonged first to the United States, and was
in a strange manner handed over by the Spanish Go-
vernment to the French, who wished to keep it as a
depot for coal, and there was no reason for refusing
it to them on the same terms as the American Govern-
ment. There was a clause in the lease that stipulated if
any seaman required the use of the hospital it should be
given to him, and in the last renewal of the lease for two
years, it was only in the event of the Spanish Government
not wanting it, inquiry had been made of the French
Government what wore their intentions respecting the
place, and the answer was they merely wished to use
it as a coal depot, and it appeared to him there could
be no objection to their using it for that purpose.

the Noble Earl, then Ambassador at Madrid.
In the last Session he had charged the Government
with the treaty which was sanctioned by Colonel Wylde.
If that officer had not authority from the British Go-
vernment, he would say that, in the twofold capacity
of a British officer an 1 a Spanish Commissioner, he
acted in a very reprehensible manner. H he
had that authority, in what way could the
Government of the Noble Viscount opposite get out .of
the obligation, to see these brave men who were now
wandering about the streets without the means of sub-
sistence paid the full amount of their claims? At a
public meeting of the officers of the Legion, held at St.
Sebastian, Colonel Wylde attended, and declared that
he was authorized to act as a Commissioner,
both for the Queen of England and for the
Queen of Spain, and that the British Minister at
Madrid had instructed him to say that the Legion
should be paid a portion of the arrears before they left
St. Sebasjan, and should receive good bills for the
remainder. But that pledge had not been re-
deemed. The Noble Lord the Secretary for
Foreign Affairs was reported to have said,
in toe other House, that the settlement of
the claims upon the Portuguese Government was left
to a British and Portuguese Commissioner, and that if
Portugal refused to satisfy them, lie would enforce the
satisfaction. Now if he could use such power in coercing
a weaker Government, sin ely it would be more becom-
ing the greatness of England to exercise the same force
over Spain, which had more resources than Portugal.
What was the amount of 250,0001. or 300,000/. to Spain?
Certainly the finances of that country were in difficulty,
but yet the Noble Viscount must know very well that the
Spanish Government could easily raise so much
money. But the officers and men of that Legion had
received nothing but the bank-notes (as they were
called) of General Alava, and those certificates were
at a discount of 25 per cent. They had got into the
hands of Jews, and though he would not say the agents
of the Spanish Government bought them up yet a re-
port to that effect was current. He allowed that all
the officers were not so badly off. Fifty-six of their
number had been promoted in the British service, and
in India, over the bead of much older officers. That
was done at the recommendation of the Foreign Office,
to relieve that department from their importunities
He found that many of the officers of the Legion had
been promoted. Sir Charles Shari had been knighted,
Col. Fitzgerald had been appointed Consul at Cartha-
gene, Col. O'Connell bad been appointed Secretary
in New South Wales, Capt. Brown had been
named to a clerkship in the Foreign Office,
Mr. Considine had been appointed Secretary in the
West Indies, and Colonel Wylde Equerry to his Royal
Highness Prince Albert. He had gone only through
a part of the list, and there were 26 of them in all.
How, he would ask, did it happen that all the officers
had been provided for, while the men had been aban-
doned. A Commission had been appointed, it was
true, but how had they attempted to carry into effect
the measure for which the Commission was instituted ?
They had fixed a certain time for sending in claims, he
believed it was the 9th of September, and they had
stated that no others should ever be attended to.
They had, however, given no notice to claim-
ants in Ireland or Scotland on the subject,
or to any of the relatives of those unfortunate men
who had addressed him on the matter. He was sur-
prised that it had not been done by any officer or
other individual connected with the service.—(Hear.)
The conduct of the Commission had, he understood,
been most unfair--they had refused pensions or medi-
cal certificates without any just grounds—pensions had
been refused to some officers who were entitled to them
under the British regulations, and allowed to others
who had no right to them. Gratuities were denied
to some officers who had done good service,
and refused to others who had either retired
or been dismissed the service. Such was the sum and
substance of the information he had received, and he
believed these unfortunate persons had been kept out of
their money from the intrigues of the Spanish Govern.
ment and its agents. He trusted the Noble Viscount
or the Noble Earl opposite (Clarendon) would
feel it their duty to bring the question to a
speedy issue. If he found there was no im-
mediate prospect of that, he should feel it his
duty to move an address direct to her Majesty, praying
that immediate steps might be taken to induce the
Spanish Government to have these just claims settled.
The Noble Marquis concluded by moving for a return
of all decisions of the War-office respecting pensions
and compensations granted to wounded officers of the
British Legion, and also for a return of the number of
all outstanding claims of officers and men, not presented
before the passing of the resolution of exclusion by the
Board.

The Earl of CLARENDON was happy to see
that the unfortunate men who had been so long and
unceasingly the objects of the Noble Marquis's ridicule
and vituperation, and for whose eminent services
he had never had a single word of approval,
were now become the objects of his warmest
solicitation. He should confine himself to the two points
referred to in the Noble Marquis's speech, and should ad-
dress himself more particularly to the guarantee said to
have been given by him for the payment of these men at
the time the first portion of the Legion left for England.
He certainly, as Minister in Spain, had no official right
to interfere to procure payment for those individuals ;
but it was impossible that he should remain indifferent
to their wants, and he did use his best exertions with
the Spanish Government to procure the fulfilment
of their engagements with them, and every claim
brought forward was listened to, and, as far as
possible at the time fulfilled ; and under those circum-
stances he wrote to General Evans, informing him of
the Spanish Government having accepted his interven-
tion. What was the consequence of his intervention ?
Every soldier who went away was paid, except 250
Lancers, as fully as if they belonged to the British
army. The Noble Marquis laughed at that ; was he
prepared to deny it ?
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY Push it
farther.—(Laughter.)
The Earl of CLARENDON—Push it farther ?
With respect to the list of Officers that were appointed
to various situations, which the Noble Marquis said
was done by her Majesty's Government to get rid
of their importunities, he (Lord Clarendon) thought
the Noble Marquis could not be serious
in making such a statement. A great part of the
officers whose names were read, he believed, were
among the most distinguished officers in her Majesty's
service, and he was sure the House would not think that
their having been employed in a service of which the
Noble Marquis did not approve, should be a bar
to their future employment. He believed there was
not one of those individuals who had not distinguished
himself greatly, and, taking them individually, not one
whose appointment the Government was not prepared
to defend upon its own grounds. He should
be glad to see the list, and give the reasons
why they were appointed. Then with respect to the
claims of the soldiers not having been paid, he first
observed their whole pay had been received, everything
to which they would have been entitled if they had been
serving in the British army. The Noble Lord shook his
head, it was easy to do that. He repeated his statement,
but it was true they had not yet received their gratuities.
Now there were more reasons than those which arose
from the inability of the Spanish Government to account
for the non-settlement of these gratuities. The accounts
were of a most complicated nature; and required
to be carefully examined and audited. He (Earl Cla-
rendon) could state with confidence, that the whole of
the proceedings of the Spanish Government had
been in the utmost good faith. The Noble Mar
quis might have cause to regret his unwarrantable
accusations of fraud and insincerity. The Commission
had been appointed in 1838, and were engaged in their
labours for nine or ten months, during which, claims
to the amount of three thousand had been gone into
and certificates granted. At the end of that time, as
there was no reason to suppose that more claims were
outstanding, and the Commissioners felt that the public
expense on their account should be put an end to, they
published in August a notice, that after a month from that
time, no fresh claims would be received. Was there
any sceresy in that ? Why, it had been published in all
the newspapers, ante posted in all the towns
where the Legion had first been recruited.
Was it not, then, evidently a bona fide
transaction ? Now, after this, the time had been ex-
tended till November.
It might not be inconvenient—
as this discussion would go abroad—that he should state
the composition of the Commission. It was com-
posed of persons of high character, selected ba the
Legion themselves, as possessing their entire con-
fidence, and the referees were of the highest and
most unblemished character, as their Lordships would
believe when they heard that th ey were—General Alava,
and Sir R. Dundas ; every disputed point being appealed
on to the War-office, and no step taken with-
out the sanction of the Secretary-at-War. Again
he asked, was not this a bona fide transaction ?
The Noble Marquis had said that lie had
made inquiries on the subject, but he would beg of
the Noble Marquis to say, whether he had
made his enquiries of any persons worthy of credit.—
( Hear, hear.) Would it not have been more natural
for him to have gone in the first place to General
Alava, or Sir Robert Dryades, if he had been anxious
to redress the grievances ref the claimants ? That would
have been better than to stigmatize as fraudulent trans-
actions in which men of ch erecter had been engaged. He
would then have found that since the Commission had
commenced its labours 1,000 claims had been de-
cided, and he would also End that those labours
were not yet closed, and that the most ample
provisions had been made against any loss on the
part of the claimants. These provisions had been
made justly and honourably, and in such a manner as
might have been expected front. the character of General
Alava. There were many persons who were interested
in having the Commission closed, and he could assure
the Noble Marquis that those were very useful sources
of information. If he wanted the means of making a
motion on the subject he should have had from him
(Lord Clarendon) every information it was in his power

The Earl of ABERDEEN said that the matter was

one of considerable importance, and it was not the first
time the French had endeavoured to establish a footing
in the island. They had already requested per-
mission to place a depot there ten years ago,
but the Spanish Government had then refused its per-
mission to allow the French to make any such esta-
blishment. The Noble Earl had said that the matter
had excited a good deal of alarm and of interest
in Spain, and he (the Earl of Aberdeen) did not
wonder at that, as he thought those feelings very
natural. The Opposition of the Cortes had taken
up the question, and he was afraid that the Oppo-
sition in their Lordships' House would also find it
necessary to take it up in order to show that it was a
point which might lead to vary serious consequences.—
(Hear, hear, hear.) The Opposition in Spain had
recommended that if the French formed an es-
tablishment of the kind it should be on the
mainland, where they could not have an opportunity of
making a port, which might afterwards be formidable.
The Noble Earl had said that the lease was a tem-
porary one, and that they had no right to interfere in
the question. He thought, however, that they
had the best possible right, as the matter
deeply concerned the security of their position
in the Mediterranean, and he believed that they
had a right to complain to the Spanish Government of
its having done what might lead to serious consequences
to this country. The Noble Earl had not told them
that the French bad been prevented from strengthening
their position in the island ; and, unless he could show
that they were not allowed to raise an edifice or con-
struction of a military character, the case was an impor-
tant one. He should conclade by observing, that, consi-
dering all that had taken place in that part of the world,
no one could be surprised that there should be some
degree of anxiety felt in this country on the subject.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH wished to know if the
French had erected any building in the island besides
depots and hospitals ?
The Earl of CLARENDON was not aware that they
had erected any other. He believed that there were
none but invalids there ; and there had never been more
than one sloop of war at any time in the island.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH said if no new buildings
were to be erected by the French, and no ulterior objects
attempted, he thought their end might be considered as
innocent.
Lord CLARENDON—I haven't a doubt about it.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH was not satisfied with
the Noble Earl's being satisfied about it, and he was
surprised the Noble Earl, at the time, had not made in-
quiries upon these points.
The Earl of CLARENDON—I beg to say that I

did make inquiries upon these points, and I was told
distinctly that very few French had been upon the
island, but it is some time since I have been in Spain.
Lord MELBOURNE—If the French had endea-
voured to have a hold on the island of Minorca, I
think the jealousy of this House and of the country
might justly be aroused, but it strikes me that
it is not possible they could have had any
ulterior objects, or that they have acquired any
great facilities for carrying them into effect, if they do
entertain them.
CLAIMS OF THE SPANISH LEGION.
A SCENE.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY begged their
Lordships' permission to bring forward a subject which
he had given notice of on last Friday, when he was pre-
vented by the early rising of the House. It related to
the claims of the Auxiliary Legion on the Spanish
Government. " I can assure your Lordships," said the
Noble Marquis, " that I am not about to make any at-
tack upon the Government—(Lord Melbourne laughed) II
—I think they must have had enough of attacks,
enough to kill half-a-dozen Governments.—(Lord Mel-
bourne laughed again, and said in a merry mood,
Oh, no pointing to his colleagues around him.) Asl
the Noble Viscount laughs—(proceeded the Noble
Marquis with some warmth) I can tell him
that he does not follow the example that has been
set him in France, where Ministers resign upon a mino-
rity of 26 ; but the Noble Viscount and his colleagues,
notwithstanding that they were beaten by a majority of
104, and again by a majority of 10, continue in their
ignoble position of a stedfast adherence to place and
pay.—[The Noble Marquis had by this time thoroughly
worked himself up, evidently exceedingly irritated by
the easy, good-natured indifference, nay, the positive
amusement with which Lord Melbourne regarded him.]
—Notwithstanding that he must feel that the Right
Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth and his
party ought to be in the places now filled by the Noble
Viscount and his colleagues. Yes (exclaimed the Noble
Marquis with still greater violence) as the Noble Vis-
count taunts me—(Lord Melbourne good humouredlv,
No")—I can tell him and his colleagues—but, how-
ever, my Lords (said his Lordship somewhat recovering
himself) th;s is foreign to the question before your
Lordships, and I was only excited to it by the
taunting manner of the Noble Viscount.—(Here
Lord Melbourne laughed outright, and in a mock
deprecatory tone said, "Oh I no indeed.") The
Noble Marquis then proceeded to state that he
had received several letters from parties who had b, -
longed to the Legion, who were now suffering under
great distress, in consequence of the withholding of
their claims, and who entreated him to bring forward
the subject. These unfortunate persons, he said,
had the distinct guarantee o f a settlement from

to give,

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 25, 1840.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he would
be the last person to say anything against the promo-
tion of those officers to whom he had alluded. They
had been the victims of the Government and its false
policy. There were,-however, a great many individuals
who considered that the claims of the non-commissioned
officers of the Legion should not be considered, because
they were led away by false expectations. But were
they to say that that should be :a bar to their claims,
and that men who bad distinguished themselves in a
foreign service should now be abandoned ? It was a
singular fact that fifty-six officers should have been pro-
moted, and that the others had been neglected.
The Noble Earl had said that the pay of the
British soldiers had been granted, but that
the gratuities were not yet given to them. He (the
Marquis of Londonderry) could not enter into details of
those transactions as to the accounts of all the parties,
but he could say there were 28,0001. not yet paid,
whether on account of gratuities or not. The Noble
Earl had asked why he had not gone for information to
General Alava or to his own Government. The Noble
Eerl had also stated that the matter was in a very satis-
factory condition, as he bad done before in the case of
Minorca. He had said that it would have been suf-
ficient for him to have gone to General Alava, who was
under the Noble Earl.—(Laughter.) Others had al-
ready consulted Sir Robert Dundas, who had made a
fine speech on the occasion. The deputation went
away as they had come. He now wanted to know whe-
ther or net the Government would call on the Spanish
Ministry to pay the claims in question; and he wished
to be informed as to the course which they intended to
follow in case there should be any delay on the occasion.
Lord MELBOURNE would not follow the Noble
Marquis through the strange mixture and medley in
which he had indulged, but would confine himself to
the returns moved for, and the questions asked. After
the Commission had sat eight or nine months, it was
announced that no further claims would be entertained
after the Gth of August. The Noble Lord, the Secre-
tary for Foreign Affairs, remonstrated with the Com-
mittee, and obtained an extension of the time to the
30th of Septeniber. The answer to the returns in this
case would be nil. The papers which the Noble Mar-
quis moved for from the War-office related, he appre-
hended, to certain communications which bad taken
' place between his Noble Friend Lord Palmerston and
the Secretary-at-War, for the purpose of obtaining in-
formation for the Commissioners as to what were the
rates of compensation for officers in the British service
fur wounds, loss of limbs, &c. He did not
think the House would require a return of
such communications between one Secretary and
another. The Noble Marquis asked if any final ar-
rangement had been made by the British Government
with that of Spain for the settlement of those claims ?
His answer was, that there was no such arrangement.
The Commission sat to ascertain what the amount of

those claims was. It lay with the Spanish Government
to arrange for their settlement. The Noble Marquis
asked what would her Majesty's Government do if the
Spanish Government did not settle the claims ? Ho
(Lord Melbourne) answered that it was the duty of her
Majesty's Government to use all just, discreet, and
proper means to obtain the settlement. But great
allowance was necessary for the situation in which the
Government of Portugal was placed. With a civil
war in the heart of the country it was quite impossible
that many claims should not remain unsettled until the
termination of that war. But he had no doubt that
everything would be done by the Portuguese Govern-
ment to give a satisfactory settlement, and that every
thing would be (lone by this Government to obtain jus-
tice for those who were unquestionably entitled to its
assistance and protection. These were his answers to
the questions and to the motion, and he had only to say
that he did not know why the Noble Marquis intro-
duced the names of those officers who had been pro-
moted in various departments at home, in India, and
in the army. He must say that when the Noble Mar-
quis had read that list, it struck him that he never heard
a list read which appeared to be more creditable to the
Government than that one.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said as the
Noble Lord had thought fit to deny the production of
these papers he certainly should not press for them,
but as the statement made with respect to the probable
liquidation of these claims was not satisfactory he should
feel it his duty, as he had already said, to move an ad-
dress to her Majesty after Easter.
The motion was then withdrawn,

Lord DUNCANNON laid on the table the Report
of Mr. Elliott and the Land Emigration Commission,
and despatches from Sir Wm. Nicolay, relative to the
Hill Coolies. He was not aware of the precise paper
the Noble and Learned Lord (Ellenborough) alluded to
on a former night.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH said he was not in pos-
session of information that would enable him to specify
any particular paper. Two years ago their Lordships
had before them letters of Sir William Nicolay, con-

taining accounts of the losses sustained on board
ship, and soon after that an order was issued directing
that no more native Indians should. be allowed
to be taken ; but between the date of that despatch and
its arrival in India many vessels must have sailed with
Indians on board, and if such were the caso, there must
be some despatches relating to those individuals.
Lord DUNGANNON said there were despatches
respecting several vessels, but they related only to the
loss, and not to the treatment of the Indians on board,
which he understood, to be included in the required
statement of the Noble Lord.
Lord ABINGER presented a petition from the
Soldiers' and Sailors' Friend society, praying the
House to take measures to prevent the spread of
Socialism.
The Marquis of NORM ANBY presented a peti-
tion from Marylehone, praying for the repeal of the
Corn-laws.