The Sun.
London, England, 1840-01-24 00:00:00

FINANCE.

The Earl of RIPON said he was desirous to ask
her Majesty's Government for some information upon a
matter that he regretted to say was not noticed in
her Majesty's Speech. Nothing appeared to him of

greater or more paramount importance than the
question of finance.—(Hear, hear.) He was afraid
that the reason why it was not noticed was in
consequence of the Government being unable to state
anything that might be satisfactory to the Parliament
or the people. He felt so strongly upon the unsatis-
factory state of their finances, that he did not feel him-
self justified in withholding what he had to state upon
the subject, or at least by abstaining from giving her
Majesty's Government an opportunity of enlightening the
House upon that subject. He considered that it was
so important a topic as to require any arguments from
him to prove its importance. He thought it quite un-
necessary to waste their Lordships' time in establishing
the fact of how much the prosperity, the power, and the
safety of the empire depended upon the wholesome state
of the financial department. Those formidable
evils which result from the opposite state of
things were already clearly established. These
were truisms which required no demonstration from him.
It was nevertheless at all times the duty of the Legislature
to give every inforinetion of the condition in which the
finances were, and the more so because an unsound and
unsatisfactory arrangement came on by very slow means.
Stnguine minds might think these casual accidents, and
that all will become right in time. Those who were
careless and indifferent as to what might happen after
their time, might continue indifferent to this subject ;
and those who knew nothing about it might not feel any
anxiety at all in a cpteation, of the merits of
which they were ignorant.—( Hear.) But this did
not absolve Parliament from the duty of paying the
most vigilant attention to this important subject.
What he was now about to state was not with the view
of imputing blame to any persons or to any party. lie
was net actuwed by any hostile spirit against any
one, but he felt it his Lounden duty to state
that he felt persuaded that we were on the verge of an un-
satisfactory and an unsound system of finance, and he
, should be wanting in the execution of his duty if he
l did not call the attention of their Lordships to
this subject. He would now state the facts
which had led him to come to so painful a
conclusion. Their Lordships would recollect. that
when the Nettle Duke (Wellington) behind bias was at
the head of the Treasury, certain laws were passed abo-
lishing the system of the Sinking Fund, and pointing
out a new and superior system, which was entitled to
admiration on account of its judicious simplicity. Instead
of giving a grant for the Sinking Fund, whatever
might be the state of the finances, it directed that only
such a sum would be applied in each quarter as
amounted to a quarter of the bona fide surplus
1 in each antecedent quarter. At that time the stir-
! plus was sufficient to enable his Noble Friend to 1
appropriate a considerable additional sum to the
diminution of taxation. That alteration contemplated
b the possibility of there being a surplus, but he felt con-
vinced that his Noble Friend never contemplated that
it should be part. of the foundation of the financial sys-
tem of the eountry that there should not be a bone
fide surplus. He had asked his Noble Friend at the
time of this alteration if he had calculated what
amount of surplus he might then expect, and
if he intended it to be part of his system to have
a surplus, and his Noble Friend had replied, that it was
part of his system. For the five or six years following
this alteration, they had had, with the exception of one
year, a regular surplus, and, according to the
regulations laid down, the surplus was applied
in various ways. They had, at the same
time, the benefit of the surplus for the Sinking Fund,
and the benefit of a considerable reduction of taxation.
But there was now no surplus, and not merely so, but
a considerable difficulty, and what created alarm in his
mind was, that he could not see any prospect of getting
out of the vicious system of borrowing money
during peace, to carry on the expenditure of
the country. It appeared, from papers laid on the table,
of the House—last year the excess of expenditure over
income in the year ending the sth of April, 1838, was
1,420,0001., and in the year ending in April, 18:39,
400,000/. being on the whole about 1,900,000/., and, ac- '
cording to estimates laid before Parliament last year,
the expenditure would exceed the income of the
Government in the year about to endin April, 900,000/. ,
since then additional expenses had been incurred,
which had not been calculated, and for the sear ending
the sth April next the surplus expenditure would be
found to have increased not less than one million, so that
for three successive years there was a clear, avowed,
and unmitigated excess of expenditure over in-
come, and he thought he should be able to
show that there were no grounds for supposing
they would be able to extricate themselves from that
perilous system. It would be said these were fanciful
fears of his, that he did not rely on the resources of the
country and the elasticity of those resources, and their
power to lift it above its difficulties.—(Hear.) He
hoped he did not undervalue their resources, he had had
much to do with them, and was the last person
so to do, but if it could be shown this expenditure they
were habitually incurring in time of peace arose from
} a deficiency in our resources, his apprehensions would
l be lessened, because that deficiency might be
caused by , transient circumstances ; but that
was not the case, for it appeared the revenue
was no less than 1,600,000/. more than in 1836,
which satisfactory circumstance showed this evil had not
i arisen from the resources of the country not being
I worked out. He admitted that, and therefore it seemed
somewhat paradoxical for him to say that he feared it
was a more alarming state of the revenue on that ac-
count, and he would tell them why. If that deficiency
had not arisen from any falling off in the revenue of the
country, it must have arisen from an increase
of the expenditure. He found that the excess of the
. expenditure for the present year, as it was estimated
last year was, as he had already said, 3,200,0001. over
the amount of the sum expended in the year 1836.
Now, if it could be proved to him that the necessity
for that increase of expenditure so enormous in amount
existed (as to its object that was another matter to
which he would advert by and bye—if it was shown
to him that increase was owing to any carelessness, or
profusion, or any other cause of that sort exclusively,
and he did not mean to say that it was liable
to any of these imputations, he should feel coat-
i Iteratively comfortable, because he should have no
hesitation in relying upon the vigilance of the House
of Commons, and he would trust to their exercising
such a rigorous scrutiny into the expenditure, that
there would be no doubt of their putting a speedy
stop to it. But the fact was, the expenditure
was increasing ; and that the increase had placed
them in a predicament from which they could not escape.
In fact he believed it was impossible for them to escape
from it. He would call their Lordships' attention
to what had occasioned a very considerable portion of it.
600,0001. or 700,000/. had been occasioned by the ad-
ditions made to the public debt within the last few
years. That addition was made in two ways, partly
by the funding of Exchequer bills, which always oc-
casioned a small increase in the expenditure, but
not much, and partly on account of the interest. The
deficiency of past years had been wholly made up by
borrowing money, for which interest was to be provided,
and if it was not to be provided for by any new taxa-
tion it must necessarily fall upon the aggregate re-
sources of the country. The mode in which' the
t largest addition had been made to the debt of
k the country arose from the operations carried on
in the year 1836, when the great measure of the eman-
cipation of the negroes was carried, at an expence
of twenty milions of money. He (the Earl of Ripon)
was a party to that measure, and if it was to be done
over again, he would most willingly become a party to
it, because he considered it a wise, a politic, anal a
humane act ; and, moreover, he believed the
question was in snch a state that the act was
one of inevitable necessity.—(Hear.) They could not
however help paying for it, and that was one of the
items which had added to the expenditure of the coun-
-1
try. Now of that :3,200,000/. excessive expenditure over
the year 1836, a very considerable portion had been oc-
-1 casioned also by an augmentation of the expense of the

army, the military, and the Ordnance, and he should like
to ask any one who thought he could look forward (and
any one who could look forward for the next six months
with certainty must be a bold man), he should like to ask
any one who thought he could look forward beyond the
present moment, to stand up and demonstrate that
there was any reason to think that they could
curtail any one of these expenses.—(Hear, hear.)
Their Lordships would recollect that last year, after
the estimates had been presented to the other House
of Parliament, there arose, unfortunately, a state of
circumstances which compelled Government to have re-
course to the painful duty of asking for an additional
grant of 5,000 men. What were the grounds on which
Government did 502—The internal state of the country.
He did think that there was no man echo had watched
the progress of events since that time, who could say
that similar circumstances might not soon make it ne-
cessary again to have recourse to a similar demand.
Ireland, it had been said, vas now in a state of perfect
peace, but in a state which made its tranquillity depen-
dant on a contingency—which contingency was no-
thing but the continuance in office of her Majesty's
present Ministry. A tranquillity which depended
on such a fact as that—on the fact whether her Ma-
jesty was to exercise her prerogative in naming her ad-
visers, was one which might be undermined by the
snap of a finger. There was nothing in this which
could enable them to reduce their army. He was

aware that the military force had been diminished in
Ireland, and that part of it had been brought over to this
country. It was forgotten, however, that though a portion of
the regular army had been withdrawn from Ireland, they
had added to the constabulary force there, which was
in itself an army, and which was, perhaps, more effec-
tual than any other, for the purpose of preserving tran-
quillity. The number of the constabulary had been in-
creased, and it was therefore possible for them to dimi-
nish their military force. This country had a large
army in Canada, and he was most happy in believing
that the circumstances of that country had improved,
and that there did not exist the same danger of out-
break there as there did at a late period.—(Hear,
hear, hear.) It was not the immediate disposi-
tion of the people of Canada which caused his
anxiety as to the state of that country, and though it
was to be hoped that those questions which had so
long been pending there should soon be satisfactorily
settled, and though some measures might be going on
which might lead to such a settlement, there was a part
of her Majesty's Speech from the throne which did
not satisfy him. There was something about the neces-
sity of settling the question. It was stated that it must
be settled. There was something, however, in the feel
ings of a high spirited nation which might make them
feel hurt at such allusions. There was another question
which involved great difficulties—it was the boundary
question pending between this country and America.
There was also another boundary question which might
soon add to those difficulties ; he alluded to the boun-
dary of the district westward of the Rocky Mountains,
which might give rise to new discussions between
the two countries.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") It was
now settled by a treaty, but that treaty would
expire in twelve months. He had no jealousy of the
American Government; God forbid that he should do
otherwise than believe that they were disposed to main-
tain the most friendly relations towards the Government
of this country, but those grounds of discussion must
arise ; they were in existence now, and of course ren-
dered it naturally imprudent for us to reduce our at my
in that quarter. No country had such an immensity of
foreign possessions as we bad, but throughout the
whole, could any man put his hand upon one
and say that there was too much garrison ? On
the contrary, he believed that many of them were
too weak. Circumstances might arise which would
imperatively demand an increase of our army abroad,
and so certain as those circumstances did arise, if not
directly, certainly indirectly, they would demand an
increase of the army at home, otherwise it would
be impossible to keep up that system of relief—
(" Hear, hear," from the Duke of Wellington)—
which was necessary in order to keep the minds of
men at ease by knowing that they were not banished
from their country for ever. Then, with respect to the
Navy. Great complaints had been made last year re-
specting the proceedings of the Admiralty, which were
positively denied by that department, and it was
said that ships were building, stores being laid
in, and ships being put in commission, but all natu-
rally leading to an increased expense, and the Go-
vernment
complained of the great difficulty they
had in isducing the other House of Parliament to grant
them sufficient sums of money for the purpose. He be-
lieved that those complaints were well founded, and that
similar complaints might be made by every Go-
vernment that had been in office since the peacr.
He did not wish to keep up an extraordinary force
in the time of peace, but it was necessary to be
prepared for any contingency. He, for one, was not
so much afraid of the resources of Russia as many
\
other people were, but still, when it was known that
they were in a state of great activity,—when it was
known that those resources were so groat, and in a
state of such forwardness, and that they might
li be applied hostilely at any time, was a thing
that was not to be left out of mind.
Then with respect to France : a report had been made
I to the French Government containing propositions
which it was very reasonable Louis Philippe should
I adopt and the Chambers would sanction ; but that did
not make it an object of less solicitude to this
t 1 country. They would he blind indeed if they treated the
course adopted b) the French Government, with respect
to their Marine, with so much indifference as to say
they would not notice it. He called on them to think,
and if the Government and Parliament thought of
1 it effectually, he, for his part, would entertain but little
alarm. Then as to the United States of America.
1 The American fleet was found stationed everywhere.—
; ( Hear, hear.) But what right had this country
1 to complain of that ? and without imputing
designs or showing any unreasonable jealousy,
that fact justified him in coming to the conclu-
sion (and he could not come to any other), that it
I was not possible, in the present state of things, for this
1 country to diminish the present enormous expenditure
with respect to her Navy. Then, as to the unintelligible
state of things that existed in the government of China.
Nothing bad been laid on the table of Parliament with
respect to the policy of the Chinese Government, nei-
ther had the House any information as to what had
occasioned these differences, what were the views of
the Government, or what was the nature of the
steps they had taken or intended to take with
respect to it. But it was quite cheer it had
caused an interruption to our trade. Nobody could
say how long it might last, or what consequences might
result, but it undoubtedly was an interruption to a most
important branch of the commerce of the whole country.
It was a question involving some serious principles of
commerce—of ruin to the merchants, and inconveni-
ence to the East India Company—besides involving
the loss of three millions of money and the prosperity of
the tea-trade, the enhancement in the price of which arti-
cle, and the consequent decrease in its consumption, must
necessarily lead to a great defalcation in the revenue.
In the midst of all this there was another question cal-
culated to produce in its consequences great
alarm as respected the revenue. He alluded
to the new Post-office regulations, and whatever
might be their probability of ultimate success, he
would not:now venture on a prophecy on the subject,
though he would express his conviction that it was a
most ill-timed experiment, nor was there anything in the
state of our finances to warrant such an experiment,
in the absence of any plan to meet the possible
deficiency. It was true that Parliament had given a
sort of pledge to supply any deficiency that might arise ;
but he did not consider that sufficiently satisfactory, be-
cause that pledge did not apply to any other deficiency
than that arising from the Post-office, and offered
no consolation with reference to the three millions which
had occurred in the last three years, nor could he
see anything in that pledge to prevent the great
evil of a declining revenue in the time of peace.
Those were the considerations that appeared to him to
follow naturally from the facts that he had called
their Lordships' attention to.—(Hear, hear.) He
I could not suggest any remedy. He had no right
to suppose that any suggestion would be listened to. If
he had attracted the attention of those who were better
able to deal with the subject, he only hoped that dis-
cussion would produce good effects. The papers he had
alluded to were the statements of the net income for
the last five years. The funded and unfunded debt for
the same period, and the regulations issued since the
Ist September, with respect to the reduction of the
debt.
Viscount MELBOURNE then rose, and said he
was sure that the Noble Earl who had just spoken
was actuated by no other motive than that of
principle.—(Hear.) The subject which had been
alluded to was certainly one of the most paramount im-
portance to the country.
He
cer-
tainly concurred in the principles
sLod Melbourne)ofrbisNoble Friend,
and in the main facts that he had stated. He entirely
agreed in the wisdom of the staking fund measure
adopted during the Administration of the Noble Duke.
He also entirely agreed that it was not a satisfactory
state of the financial affairs to have a clear admitted
deficiency. But the Noble Earl further considered
it a right principle always to expect an increase. Now he
(Lord M.) did not entirely agree in that. And he rather
thought that when the deficiency was but small it was
not wise to burden the country with any extraordinary
exactions, but to trust to its natural resources. Still
it was impossible to deny that a deficiency, year after
year, increasing, was a state of things to which
the country must boldly and decidedly apply itself.
At the same time, be felt, that in financial, as in all
other matters, boldness, and confidence, and courage,were
the best opponents to danger,and that it was not well al-
ways to adhere slavishly to rule. His Noble Friend, the
Noble Earl, stated truly that the deficiency arose, not so
much from any defalcation or falling off in the revenue,nor
by any failure in the productive power of the country,
but from temporary cause from which the country
might soon recover. Still, it was not to be
denied that the expenses of the county
had been long growing in a great degree, and from
causes which, he agreed with his Noble Friend,

there was no reason for hoping would or could
be speedily diminished or obviated.—(Hear, hear.)
His Noble friend had gone through a great many sub-
jects which he (Lord Melbourne) did not think it ne-
cessary to follow; but unquestionably from the causes he
had stated, he did not fairly see any proba-
bility of any Government greatly to diminish
the expenses either of the military or the naval posts
of the country. They have increased very much since
the year 1816, at which time they were very low ; it
could not be denied that there have been growing dif-
ficulties to account for its increase. He did not
fear or apprehend from all the arguments of his
Noble Friend, which he (Lord Melbourne) did not
mean to contravene, that he took any unfair view of
the question. But he trusted that it was not calcu-
lated to excite alarm or promote danger. From
those circumstances which did exist, he had al-
ready shown it was not possible, with a view to
the safety of the empire, to cause any reduction
in those establishments, or in the exigencies of
them ; unquestionably it is hoped there will not
be the same demand for the great establishments
which it was necessary to keep up. With
respect to Ireland, he had hopes that that tran-
quillity which the Noble Lord had doubted was
fully established ; yet he (Lord Melbourne) had
every reason to suppose that tranquillity will not
be shaken—at the same time he saw no possibi-
lity of diminishing rapidly the military force in Canada.
With respect to the boundary question, considering;
the course of proceeding
ac adopted be
y the American Go-
vernment, in which he pled entir confidence, he cer
tainly entertained the strongest hope that it would be
brought to an amicable termination. It was cer-
tainly true that the naval force of foreign powers
had, as might naturally have been expected,
grown mad increased, and although we were
not called upon to keep a force equal to the
whole of the other navies in the world, yet certainly
this circumstance called for an adequate increase
of our naval force. The Noble Lord had adverted to
a question of great difficulty, and in doing so he had
abstained from using any terms that might be likely to
increase it—(Hear, hear.) In his reply, therefore,
he should cautiously, abstain from the use of any
expressions, which, under the circumstances, might be
considered unnecessary and misplaced—he meant the
question of China. Undoubtedly a crisis had taken
place there which, considering the relations be-
tween the Chinese and European nations bad been
often thought likely to occur. He was not prepared
to undervalue the difficulties of this crisis, for he thought
that it was fraught with all those commercial difficul-
ties, and also with many of those financial consequences,
that had been alluded to by the Noble Lord. The
Noble Lord had dwelt upon the loss that was likely to
occur to the revenue in consequence of the Bill
which had been passed in the last Session
of Parliament for reducing the duties of Postage. A
large deficiency of the revenue had on all hands been
anticipated as a consequence of the adoption of that
measure. He would, however, state that the plan bad
been adopted bona fide by her Majesty's Government, and
notwithstanding what had been stated in a pamphlet
which he -had seen "by a Faithful Counsellor of the
Crown," he could assure their Lordships that the
measure had been adopted bona fide, and not
with with the idea that it would be thrown
out by the opposition of Noble Lords opposite. That
Faithful Counsellor of the Crown,"acting upon his own
lively impressions, had taken the promptings of his
own imagination for a reality. This was often
the case with persons of a lively imagination, and
there was no more pregnant source of error and
absurdity than for persons to fancy they were
acquainted with th motives of others, and acting
on this as on a certainty. The Noble Lord had
said, that although the House of Commons was
pledged to make up the deficiency arising from the Post-
office alterations, yet that pledge did not extend
to other deficiencies. He begged leave to say,
that whether the deficiency arose from th(
Post-office project, or any deficiency, he should
not ask for any express pledge ; he felt sully confident
both with respect to that and every other deficiency that
might arise. He felt fully confident that the cnere'ies of
the country—that the patriotism of the House of Corn-
mons and of its constituencies—that a due regard to the
fidelity of contracts, the honour of the country, and
her station among nations, would be amply sufficient to
induce them to meet the financial difficulties of
the country, boldly and firmly, whatever the)
might be, and in such a manner as should be ade-
quate, and suited to the occasion, whatever the occasion
might be, that should arise. With respect to any dr-
ficiency that might arise by the adoption of that
measure for which they had distinctly and expressly
pledged themselves, he could not think that the Noble
Lord had done other than his duty in calling thus
early in the Session the attention of their Lordships
to a matter of such importance. He per-
fectly adrniaed the reasoning of the Noble Lord.
He perfectly admitted the greater part of his facts.
Unquestionably he saw difficulties in the present posi-
tion of the country in that respect, and unless the coun-
try was prepared to exert itself, and maintain
its place among the nations, be felt fully
confident that the energies and resolutions of the coun-
try would carry it through its present difficulties.—
( Hear, hear.)—The motion was then agreed to.
THE CHARTIST PRISONERS.
Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from two
persons who were confined in Chester Castle since Au-
gust last, on a conviction for having used inflamma-
tory language at a meeting, and for which they
were to be imprisoned for twelve months, after
being duly convicted in due course of law
The petition stated a variety of things, but not to
trouble their Lordships, he would only recommend it
to their best attention. He begged to state that
it was committed to him in a letter from a respectable
solicitor residing at Manchester, and the statements
rested only on his authority, and therefore he (Lord
Brougham) was not answerable for them. If true, it
would appear the Justices present were not well advised,
that the practice of the law required that the person to
be committed should be present at the examination of
the witnesses against him, that he might hear the evi-
dence and have the power of cross-examining them.
This, it was stated, the Magistrates did not do : but the
petitioner, who was a medical man, said the witnesses
were severally introduced, and instead of being exa-
mined in the usual way, and giving their answers sub-
ject to cross-examination a paper was read over to
them by the Magistrates' clerk, and they were asked
whether the statements which purported to be evidence
taken down before was true. This was not the proper
way, for the examination was not taken in the presence
of the parties, and it was one thing to
read over a paper, and another to examine,
and thus subject them to cross-examination.
The other ground of complaint was, that the
party, when called upon, was proceeding to state
his defence, but was told he must speak so slow that
the clerk, who could not write short hand, might take
down every word he said, that it might be used in evi-
dence against him. That was a very great mistake ; for
the use to be made of the defence was not that of has-
bag evidence against him, but to influence it in his fa-
vour ; and he really hoped no party would again be
required to utter his defence in such a way, since
many would thereby be obliged to hold their peace.
No person was more cautious than himself in interfer-
ing with the administration of justice ; but he had
thought it proper to state these facts to their Lordships,
and he submitted they were well worthy of their con-
sideration.
The Marquis of NORMANBY said, that he had a
considerable correspondence with the sitting Justices on
the subject. As far as the case had come before him.
he thought the magistrates were justified in the course
they had taken. He would, however, make further
inquiry on the matter, and lay the results before their
Lordships.
ENFRANCHISEMENT OF COPYHOLDS.
On the motion of Lord BROUGHAM, a Com-
mittee was appointed to consider the details of the Bill
for the Enfranchisement of Copyholds.—Adjourned.

HOUSE OF C014M0N.3, JAN. 23.
There being only 36 Members present at Four
o'Clock, the House adjourned till to-morrow.

SOUTHWARK ELECTION.

CLOSE OF THE POLL.
Wood
Walter
Mr. Curling resigned at an early hour.

Mr. J. R. Fyne, the recently-appointed organist
to the Abbey Church at Bath, is the successful candidate for
the Gresham prix medal.
WONDERFUL IF TRUE.—At a little distance
from the road leading from: Swinford, to Cuiltemagh, and
about a mile and a half from the former town, resides Mr.
James Kavanagh, an honest, industrious, and respectable
villager. He has a son, grown to man's estate, who has
been confined to his be for the last four years, and dur-
ing that period he has not spoken a word, nor has he
been known to eat or drink anythinff whveratevelittle, r—never
if tathelall,ess.
his colour is fresh, and his strength y
impaired. He gets up daily to permit his bed to be dressed,
and the moment it is ready he gets into it again, ith-
out taking the slightest notice of anything said to or about
him. He does not seem to sleep ; at least no one can enter, his
room unknown to him ; but he takes no further notice of per-
sons even threatening to maltreat him, than by fixing his
eyes sharply upon them. The only exception is, when any
person blasphemes or curses, and then he looks most fiercely,
and turns away his head. Previous to his getting into tins
strange state, he was fully in possession of all his facultie: of
mind and body, and had the character of being a pious and
ingenious young man, an obedient son, and a good neighbeur.
FATAL ACCIDENT DURING THE ill GII
Alrisrn_on Tuesday afternoon, during the hurricane tluit
prevailed, a boy, named Bolton, the son of a waterman, w
coming through Kingston-bridge in a punt, when he observed
a barge heavily laden bearing, but
close upon nine abs im-
mediately attempted to get out of the way but a violent gust
of wind bore his boat right against the barge, which drove illy
punt against the corner of the arch, and stove it in half. The
father of the unfortunate lad was standing on the share, and
endeavoured to seize hold of his son, but he failed in doing so,
and the lad passing under the bat ge rose on the opposite side,
and then instantly sunk. The body had not been recovered.