The Sun.
London, England, 1840-07-11 00:00:00

tip'

~.iAiJE T.

HOUSE OF LoRD.s. JuLr 10.
The Loho C:IA NCELLOII a,at oa Wechiael;
at the usual hour.

TIMBER SHIPS BILL
Viscount DUNCANNON tno,e,t tne Order of the
Day for gring into Committee on th', Timber Ships Bill.
Lord COLCHESTER moved as so amendmcnt the
omission Corn the first clause of the wmds " Uuitd
" Kingdom," in order that the measure might apply ge-
nerally to ships trading to the colonies and elsewhere.
Viscount DUNCANNON objected to the amendment.
After a few words from Lord ASHBURTON, the
amendment was withdrawn, and the Bill passed through
Committee.

TEMPERANCE IN IRELAND.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH wished to call the
attention of Ministers to a letter from the Lord Lieute-
nant of Ireland, on the subject of temperance processions
in that country, for the purpose of ascertainirg if the let-
ter was authentic; and in that letter he found the follow-
ing passage:—" To the benefi:s which the temperance
pledge has conferred on Ireland, the improvement of the
habits of the people, and the diminution of outrages. his
Excellency bears his willing and grateNl testimony." Now
he (the Marquis of Westmeath) would be surprised to
find the representative of the Sovereign of these realms in
Ireland expressing his gratitude for the operation of what
e.as called the temperance pledge, which in point of fact
was nothing mere than a piece of slip slop.—( Laugh-
ter.) lie hoped the document was not a genuine
one, and that the Lord Lieutenant had not
expressed his gratitude for that Popish expedient for keep-
ing men from what he acknowledged however to be a mo_t
vicious habit.

The Marquis of NORMA NBY had no official informa-
tion on the subject of the letter, although he had no reason for
doubting his authenticity. He did not wish to enter into a
discussion with the Noble Marquis with regard to the tem-
perance system in Ireland, but even though he would share
in the censures of the Noble Marquis he would not hesitate
to say that he believed that system had effected great and
signal good in Ireland.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said that he thought
the matter was worthy of another observation besides
those of the Noble Marquis. There appeared to
be now a new doctrine in law with respect
to processions. The old doctrine was that the
assembling of large bodies of men, so as to create terror,
was illegal, and ought to be forbidden. But they had
processions of large bodies, creating terror in the town
of Clonmel, while those processions were not for-
biVen by the official document referred to on that
account, but becaus^ they wore party badges. Ile (the
Duke of Wellington) thought that the best way would be
not to allow those assemblages in such numbers so as to
create terror, and yet nothing was said about that in the
document.

The Earl of DE VON had heard with great regret the
observations of the Noble Mai quis (the Marquis of West-
meath) with reference to the temperance movement in
-eland. The Noble Marquis had treated that movement
as an absurd fiction.—( Hear, hear, from the Marquis of
Westmeath.) He believed, however, that the Noble Mar-
quis knew very little about the matter.—( Hear, hear.)
He did not wish to pledge himself as to the permanency
of the change in the habits of the people of Ireland, but
his cpinion was that great and substantial good . had al-
ready been effected by the temperance m .vement, and
that much of that good would continue.—( Hear, hear.)
He believed that the change had been effected by means
pettedly legitimate, and by exertions wh.clt partook as
little as possible of the nature of fanaticism. lie had him-
self heard Father Mathew address the people, and ad-
dress them in language such as any of their Lordships
would use iu endeavouring to reclaim people from the vice
of intemperance. He thought, therefore, that exertions
so praiseworthy, and which had been attended with such
beneficial results, should not be held up to ridicule in their
Lordships' House.
The Earl of WICKLOW did not wish to depreciate
the exertions of Mr. Mathew, or their effects. An at-
tempt had been made to have it supposed that temperance
societies had been got up :n Ireland with mischievous in-
tentions, but from such a supposition he (the Earl of
Wicklow) totally dissented. At the same time, however,
he would allow that the e were mischievous persons in.that
country who were ready to take advantage of that or of
any ether subject for the purpose of exciting popular
feeling, and he believed these parties had been too success-
ful in collecting large bodies in temperance processions, so
as to create great alarm in the country. He thought, how-
ever, that the Rev. Mr. Mathew himself deserved the
greatest credit for his exertions, and he hoped the tempe-
, ranee movement would be continued.

The Marquis of WE STME AT H did not wish to with-
draw a single expression he had used. He thought, how-
ever, that on one subject he had been misrc presented. He
allowed that sobriety could not be too much encouraged,
and he did not regret that the people of Ireland had be.
come so, but he regretted that the Lord Lieutenant of
Ireland had adduced the temperance pledge, which was
but a piece of pewter, as a s;gn of amendment in the
people of Ireland, while the Gospel was not sufficient for
the purpose.—( Laughter ) He would repeat that the
whole proceeding was slip-slop, and was founded on that
tyranny which the Roman Catholic priesthood exercised
over the minds of the people of Ireland.
The Earl of GLENG AL L bore witness to the bene-
ficial effects of the temperance reform in Ireland, but at
the same time agreed in the observations made by the
Noble Earl as to the evil schemes of mischievous per one
to make it a political engine.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY presented a peti-
tion in favour of the Chimney Sweepers
SCOTCH BENEFICES BILL.
The Earl of ABERDEEN, after presenting several
petitious in favour of this Bill, said that he would take the
opportunity of answering a question that had been put to
him by a Noble Lord on Saturday, with respect to his in-
tentions as to the future progress of this Bill After the
best consideration he could give to the subject he had very
reluctantly come to the conclusion that it would
not be expedient to press the third reading of this Bill in
-the course of the present Session. Perhaps he might be
indulged while he stated the reasons which had brought
him to this conclusion, which he thought it due to the
House to do, on whom he bad strongly pressed the con-
sideration of this measure, and by a large majority of
whom, in a proportion of more than three to oi.e, it had
been supported. Their Lordships were aware this mea-
sure had been opposed by the majority of the General
Assembly, on the ground of its being an unjusti-
fiable interference with the spiritual independence and
proper jurisdiction of the Church ; and that they had de-
nounced him, in consequence of the Bill, as an enemy and
persecutor of the Church. On the other hand, in that
House, and in the other, the only specific objection ever
urged against the measure was, that it conceded too large
powers to the Church, and yielded it an tujuitifilble ex-
tent of jurisdiction. He had endeavoured to show, and
thought he had succeeded, tnat the objection was un-
founded ; yet, at the same time, he was ready to admit,
that if he had erred at all, it was um?, übtedly
on the side of the too liberal concessions made to the
Church. The objections of the General Assembly were
so manifestly unreasonable, not to say so prep, sterous, that
he should have felt little inclination to attend to them, and
he should have hoped if the Bill passed into a law he might
have trusted to obtaining the assent of the General Assem-
bly, and the great mass of the clergy as well as laity of the
country, from whom he had received the most satisfactory
expressions of approbation of the measure; but unfortu-
nately the Government thought proper to oppose its pro-
gress. Now this Bill was intended as a measure of peace,
and he was unwilling to do anything to deprive it of that
character, more especially as he was persuaded if this ques-
tion was to be settled with a view to the preservation of the
interests of the Church it must be by a measure founded on
the same basis as his Bid. But the objection of the Govern-
ment was on different grounds to that of the majority of the
General Assembly ; yet still they arrived at the same con-
clusion, and practically united in opposition to the measure.
The Noble Earl proceeded to state that he had received
many private communications from clergymen in Scot-
land urging him to proceed with his measure, and ex-
pressing their opinion that the General Assembly would
ultimately assent to it, and that that body were beginning
to be aware of the unpopularity they had excited by their
opposition to the case. He hoped the Noble Viscount
would attend to the proceedings of the General Assembly,
which would take place in the course of the ensuing month.
How far the Government would be prepared to do any-
thing would be for their consideration. He had no hope
that a measure would be passed on the subject this Ses-
sion, but he trusted the discussion which had taken place
would not be altogether without benefit, and he did think
the Noble Viscount might with great safety have lent his
assistance to the measure, especially as he had no objec-
tion to urge against it.
The Earl of H ADDING TON expressed his sincere
regret that his Noble Friend had withdrawn his Bill. He
should observe that the subject now rested with her Ma-
jesty's Government. His Noble Friend had been the ob-
ject of much vituperation—both lay and clerical—and yet
he was persuaded that the opponents of his Noble Fiend
would never get a measure so favourable as the Bill in
question to the legitimate powers of the Church.
The Earl of CAM PE RDOWN thought the disputes
in the Church of Scotland could not be terminated by ails
legislative enactment. He was glad, therefore the Bill
was withdrawn, as he was persuaded it never would meet
with the approbation of the General Assembly.
The Bill was then withdrawn.
BEER BILL.
On the motion of Lord ELLENBOROUGH the
Sale of Beer Bill was read a first time, and orders d to
be read a second time on Monday.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATION (IRELAND)
BILL.
On the Order of the Day being read for receiving the
Report on the Municipal Corporation (Ireland) Bill,
The Bishop of EXETER attempted to justify the
against
charges
Marquis
übroughtfLansdoe )
i
D
on a farmer occasion. He thought those charges were
ct
pm° rbayt tohne ot
Nobleu bMI i an rqf ritoi sm (tt
hh
ce
unjust, and founded on fallacious statements.
The Marquis of L A NSDO WNE said the Right
Rev. Prelate had complained of the harsh terms in
which he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) had spoken of
the corporation of Dublin on a former occasion, but he
thought the Right Rev. Prelate had been quite as
severe in his terms of condemnation of the Bill, not as
one of sacrilege certainly, bat as sacrificing the rights of
the corporation of Dublin, as he (the Marquis of Lans-
downe) had been in his condemnation of the abuses in the
corporation of that city. It was perlecily elev.- from the
Report to which the Right Rev. Prelate hid rt fen ed, ,
that abuses had existed in them for a period of upwards I
of fifty years lle had correctly described the conduct of
the corporation. The abuses that had existed were the
rcsult of a bad system, and that system the Government
were determined, if possUe, wholly to abolish.—( Hear)
The Maiquis of LONDONDERRY observed, that
the I earned Counsel had made ceitain statements, and
had stated he could prove these statements. In his opi-
hien, therefore, an opportunity ought to be afforded him
For so doing.
After a few observations from the Earl of G L ENG A LL,
The Marquis of NOR M ANBY said he would not ac-
cuse the Learned Counsel at the bar of stating that which