The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-03 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 3, 1847.

charging his duties.—(Hear, hear.) It was said that the
landlords of Ireland were beggars, but he denied that state-
ment. With the assistance of Government, it would be found
that the landlords of Ireland were quite ready to do their
duty ; but of this subject he should be prepared
to speak when the proper time arrived for doing so. He
would no longer trouble the House except to entreat Govern-
ment to encourage emigration and colonisation, and to thank
the people of this country and the Government for the anxiety
they had evinced for alleviating the distress of Ireland.
Lord CLEMENTS thought the Irish Members had been
unjustly blamed for the failure of the Public Works Act, be-
cause it was not likely that they could be in their places when
their services were required in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) At
all events he would not share any of the blame. His services
were more useful in Ireland at the time the Bill was passed than
they would have been had he been in bis place in the House.
He admitted that the statement that farmers had forsaken their
farms, to labour on the Government works, was correct; but they
were to blame in this respect, as they had held out inducements
for them to leave their legitimate means of subsistence. The
wages were, first, 2d. a day less than the usual rate, but the
Government yielded to the popular clamour, and in-
creased the rate of payment to that demanded-
-( Hear, hear)--and now they come forward and charged
the country . gentlemen with being deficient in firmness,
and with having given relief to those who were not fit reci-
pients. The Government officers had not carried out the
measures in a proper manner, as in many instances they had
sought the advice of the resident proprietors. Captain Layard
was appointed in the district in which he lived (in Leitrim),
but he never consulted him (Lord Clements). He therefore
blamed the Government for not having sought the advice of
those who were competent by their long connexion with the
country to testify to the state of the populace and the proper
mode to set about dispensing relief to them. The em-
ployment of farmers and others who had no claim to be em.
ployed on the Government works might have been prevented in
this way, by the dismissal of the check clerks, wherever such a
class of persons were employed, because they had ample oppor-
tunities of knowing the position and condition of those who
were engaged. When he became a member of the relief com-
mittee in Leitrim, he considered that the 41. tenant test was
the proper one, as parties so rated were paupers, who were
unable to pay rates, and who were, therefore, fit subjects for
relief. From his experience, he found that this was
a fair pivot to turn.. But after the lists had
been made out from the • rate-books in this way,
the Government called upon them to make it out accord-
ing to another plan; thus confusion had been created, and
even up to that time no efficient list had been made out.
Many farmers who only rented four or five acres were net only
above want, but in a condition to assist their poorer neigh-
bours. Some had six head of cattle, one or two of which they
had, perhaps, been compelled to part with, owing to the want
of turnips. It was, therefore, unfair for those persons who
possessed such a small number of acres, from which, by their
industry, they derived a good living, to be called upon to contri-
bute towards the support of those who held more land, but who
were less industrious. Therefore, ho said the Government
were not acting a beneficent part towards Ireland by giving
relief indiscriminately, and not protecting the industrious from
supporting the idle, some of whom held twenty acres, into
which they had never put a spade, yet they were now receiving
relief as destitute persons. They let the land in con-
acre, and lived out of the proceeds; but they continued in in-
dolence and paid neither rates nor taxes ; in fact, the only
thing they would do was to labour at the public works, and to
receive the public money. It was incumbent upon the Govern-
ment to put a stop to such a pernicious system as this.
In many parts of Leitrim the people had neglected to collect
manure, so that the land could not be expected to produce
crops, and therefore deficient harvests would continue so long
as they neglected the proper cultivation of the land. The
"rundale" system was equally open to objection, and ought
to be grappled with at once. Even if the harvests were pro-
ficient there was not sufficient mechanical power in Ireland to
manufacture the grain. He had visited one mill in which he
found thirty persons waiting to have their corn ground, and
so great was the suantity brought that the mill had
to be kept at work during the night. He re-
gretted that the Government were disposed to
encourage absenteeism, which had reduced the towns to a state
of pauperism, as the money realised out of the soil was spent
out of the eonntry, a great portion of it being expended here,
so that Ireland, in a period of suffering, had a right
to receive subsidies from this country; in fact,
she was almost in a position to demand such aid
He had to lay upon the table of the House petitions from the
farmers of the county of Leitrim, complaining that every ter.
pound freeholder was obliged to go and attend in his place
as a juror on a summons from the sheriff. Now he considerec
it was most unfair that these men should have to attend while
the absentees were never even called upon. There was an-
other point to which he would wish to refer—it was to the con
duct of the bailiffs and agents upon estates. It was considered
a very hard thing of him (Lord Clements) when,
in his capacity of a Magistrate, he declined to go
into a great many cases for the burning of lane
—which they were all aware was a very grave offence—
but he had heard that the money did not go into the landlord's
or the agent's pocket, but into that of the bailiff, who, when
he found that he could no longer receive the fees upon these
cases himself, but would have to return an account of them,
never troubled the Bench any more. He did say that th,
time was come when they should oblige the absentee landlord,
to look after their property, and that the time was also come
when they should endeavour to form a home market
as it was utterly impossible that a country should be purel%
agricultural without meeting such reverses as the present. He
lived in what he believed to be the very poorest district in Ire-
land, %here he had been toiling day and night to benefit the
condition of the poor.—( Hear, hear.) He had received a let-
ter from his steward no later than on last Wednesday, whirl
infermeed him that, in one day, no fewer than 175 person.
came to his farm-yard to purchase turnips, many
of them coming a great distance to obtain even
so small a quantity as two stones, -and none
above a hundred weight, and they said that when the eroi•
was exhausted, they did not know where to go to obtain
food. He was a little surprised at the answer which had been
given by the Hon. Member for Donegal, with respect to the
depots, along the western coast, he was happy, however, to
hear, that they were about to put these depots into operation
He should tell the Government that it would be most
important to form inland depots. There was another point
to which he woull wish to draw attention; the greater portion
of the people resident in the district from which he came
mainly depended on the sale of their pigs. On January th,
14th, he was informed by a person on whom he placed implici
confidence, and who was in the habit of spending from fourteen
hundred to fifteen hundred pounds on pigs alone, on January
14th he was not able to purchase one, and in the market of
that district to which he had alluded the fair was generally wel;
attended, but last month there were only nine pigs
in the whole fair. Indeed, so defective had the supplies from
Ireland become, that the merchants and manufacturers were
obliged to use American beef, although they had a strong
lao disinclination to its use. In fact, the country—the land
itself—had become greatly impoverished. This truth
upon
the
country forcedh
upon
obnonah'ome d when he was walkingncountry to see where public works should In
commenced, to go to a tovvrid, not er h
hi
noble parent's estate, where the people told him that they had
been accustomed to pay three or four pounds an acre,and for
which he himself would have given that price at a former time,but for which he would be very sorry to give ten shillings
acre now. He wished the Government would devise
measures,an
either to compel the landholders to cultivate the land
themselves, or let somebody else do it.—.(Hear, hear. )
In
his opinion, if there was to be any enactment to give oui-
door relief it was not necessary, unless they wished more
particularly, not utterly to ruin Ireland, but this country also.
He said, and said most solemnly, that there was no life on earth
to him more painful than living among the unfortunate popu-
lation of Ireland. He had, since he had left his duties in the
House, been amongst them almost without intermission. Ile
had, during the last ten years, done all that could be done by
a man to endeavour to assist these poor people.—( Hear, hear. )
He confessed that he was discouraged and heart broken al
seeing, after so many years of toil and labour, such small re-
sults as he had experienced. He seriously implored the House
to take into consideration, as he was sure he had every reason
to hope that they would do, from the kind manner in which
the debate bad hitherto been conducted— the state nt
the country—and to avoid making any further falso steps.
Let them determine what should be the pivot on which the ad-
ministra • tion of that reliefshould turn ; let them show the line
of demarcation, or else they could not expect any private or
public benefit either to the country or to individuals, and there
would always be the
same abuses and distress.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that his Noble Friend who had
just• med his seat had blamed very severely the conduct of
resumed
with regard to the Labour-rate
her Majesty's Government Act.
There was that in the observations of his Noble Friend which
grieved, him, and also that which, he must confess, entirely re.
moved from his mind any weight or unpleasant feeling which
the other arguments of the Noble Lord against the Labour-rate
Bill and her Majesty's Government might have produced
His Noble Friend had told the House that there was no public
work executed under this Bill which, in his judgment, was
not a permanent
public Bill. He (Mr. Labouchere) thought
such an observation ought hardly to be in the mouth of
thhisat
Noble Friend, who, influenced by a sense of justice, had
been obliged to bear testimony in favour of the measure which
was at present the object of his censure. He had heard the
•
declaration with some surprise, for he believed that certainly
the evil effects that he attributed to this Bill and his loose
condemnation of the works executed under him, had
been exaggerated by many Gentlemen who had ad-
dressed the House.
His Noble Friend had stated that
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had passed a sweeping censure
on the landlords of Ireland and their conduct.
He did not
understand have used the t
understand his Right Hon. Friend at all to a
he
(Mr. ex-
pression,La-
and any expression of that description
he should by no
beuchere) was sure that if he had done so,
means have been prepared to concur in that statement. He
official residence in had had, during his
Ire-
land, but too many opportunities of observing
whom he sew
the conduct of the Irish landlords, many of
a,
around hint at that moment. lie had remained notte, the
Irish during the last four rn
oaths—months of the greatest
istinctior. in that cotton
distress. Gentlemen of the greatest d
were the first in exerting then"elv" to
alleviate it. He wa
's
of this popular spirit on
weli acquainted with many instances
before he was acquainted
the part of the Irish in genera
knew that the sub-
scriptions from many
with the instances of the exertion
of private charity en
the part of the gentry of 'reload ; but he
of them had helped the Government in
its efforts for the public, under the distressing circumstances in
which they were placed. He thought that admission was quite
consistent with his saying, as truth bound him to say, that it
was to certain gentlemen of the county which, in their efforts
to meet the tremendous difficulties, coupled with the general
spirit which pervaded all the gentry of Ireland generally, the .
Government was most materially indebted for assistance.
There were, however, many exceptions, and some of the relied
committees did net give her Majesty's Government or Parlia-
merit the support which they ought to do in many cases. He
did not mean to sa that these cases were of uncommon occur-
rence, for extraordinary effects were not to be expected from
ordinary persons ; but such services had been received from
certain gentlemen, both distinguished and noble, and from many
persons for whom, as a Member of the Government, he felt a
lasting gratitude for the spirit and co-operation they
had afforded during the last four months. fie
rendered his thanks sincerely to the many noble and
distinguished persons who held a front position
in the party always opposed to her Majesty's Government.
He could not forget Lord Farnham, and Lord Lauton, and
others, who hail not hesitated to come forward to assist Govern-
ment in any measures proposed, forgetful of all party preju-
dices. lie was happy to see that spirit of moderation prevail-
ing, without which they might pass and devise measures with-
out ever being able to extricate Ireland from the difficulties
which surrounded her. They had had already great difficulties
to contend with, and the more he looked into the matter the
more tremendous anti overwhelming the difficulties he had yet
to overcome appeared.—( Hear, hear.) He did not state this
to decry the exertions which had been made, though he believed
they would be met and overcome by the energy and determined
spirit of the Legislature.—(Hear, hear.) In the course
.ahich the Government had alrea:ly taken he had been sup-
ported—he was glad to say by Irishmen of all ranks and par-
ties— and whatever the
present sufferings and distress might
be, he was persuaded that out cf the evil good would arise—
( Hear, hear)—and that this would yet carry the country
through its present trials. But they would have an awful
struggle before them. —( Hear, hear.) A good deal of the
discussion of the last two nights had been occupied with dis-
putes about the spirit in which Ireland should be treated.
Much bad been said which he regretted, though at the
same time he thought that the very great majority

of the House had treated the question under consideration in a
becoming and proper spirit. He for one could not admit that
Ireland should come before them as a mendicant seeking alms
from England. That was not the footing on which he asked
assistance for the present alarming distress. It should be
granted not as alms, but as justice._( Hear, hear.) Ireland
should be treated on the same principle as that which regu-
lates the affairs of a private family. When one member of
a family is afflicted with some great, or sudden, and tremendous
affliction, the other members of the family come forward to
afford relief.—( Hear, hear.) In the same way the Legislature
should come forward and assist the misfortunes and necessities
of Ireland.—(Cheers.) It was not his intention to trespass
on the House at any length to-night. as he thought the general
feeling of those present was favourable to the propositions of
the Government, and that they would allow the Bills to be
read a second time without further delay, reserving the discus-
sion of the details till in Committee.—(Hear, hear.) If the
House would do so—if they would allow the Bills to be read a
second time, he would pledge himself that they should be
brought into Committee with as little delay as possible.
Let them recollect the importance of these measures. He
alluded particularly to the Temporary Distress Bill. It was
exceedingly important that that measure should be passed with-
out the loss of any time but what was absolutely necessary for
the fair discussion of the question.—( Hear, hear,) The House
appeared generally of opinion that whatever might be said of
the system of relief in operation at present, it was high time
that the works commenced under it should be brought to a
close, and another system introduced in its stead. If so, then time
was valuable in order to liberate the labourers for the cultivation
of the soil. He did not believe that much injury had been done
as yet, though some effects might have been produced—effects
that had been greatly exaggerated.—( Hear, hear.) The Go-
vernment had thought it their duty to collect information on
this point, and they had caused a series of queries to be is-
sued in order to learn what the people of Ireland were about in
cultivating the soil and preparing for the next harvest. The
result of these queries showed that there was a much larger
breadth of land under wheat than in former years; and that
in the potato growing districts rye and beer had been substi-
tuted for that article to a considerable extent.—( Hear,
hear.) As yet little had been done towards preparing the
spring crops ; yet, nevertheless, no irremediable injury had
been committed, and if the farmers had labourers now there
was yet ample time to make every preparation for the coming
harvest. He thought also that it must be 'obvious to the
I House that they must persevere in the present system of public
works unless they would leave the people to starve, or
be prepared to substitute the other system. To delay the
present measure, therefore, would be perpetuating the
system which had been condemned, and interfere materially
with the necessary preparations of the land for the next year.
He threw out these suggestions for the consideration of the
House, in order that the Bill might be read a second time,
and then considered in Committee, thus preventing any
unnecessary delay. He had no right to complain of the tone
or temper in which the House bad received these measures.
They had given the Government credit for having acted with
the best intentions, however much they might differ on the
policy pursued. Had it been otherwise, he should not have
complained, considering the extraordinary circumstances of
the case. But some Hon. Members had expressed themselves
strongly against the policy of the Government in relation to
the importation and sale of food. He could assure such Hon.
Members that they had not acted as they did without mature
consideration ; and, so far from time and experience
having altered his opinion, on the contrary, he
believed, that bad they followed the opposite course spoken of,
and imported provision! into Ireland, and established depots,
not on the coast alone, as they had done, but throughout the
interior of the country—if they had become importers as well
as distributors of food, they would have aggravated, in a most
painful degree, all the horrors of famine.—(Loud cries of
" Hear, hear.") Had it been practical, as asserted by that
course to have relieved distress, reduced prices, and saved
human life, he would not have objected to the infrac-
tion of the abstract doctrine of political economy ;
but because he believed that distress would have been much
aggravated, prices raised, and famine extended, he must ex-
press his decided opinion that the Government had pursued the
only proper course.—(Hear, hear.) They had also been
blamed because they had not sold the corn imported under cost
price. The reason they had not done so was, because of the
unfavourable influence such a step would have exercised over
the retail dealers in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) It would have
done serious injury to this important class—a class respecting
which, he believed, Ireland would not be safe until they were
greatly extended. In order to place Ireland in a proper condi-
ion respecting distribution, they musthave village shops every-
where. It was with this view that they refused assistance to
those relief committees that would not act upon the principles
which they laid down, which were that they should sell the pro-
duce at a rate which would yield a fair profit. He was firmly
convinced that the Government had acted right in adhering to
what was called the abstract principles of political
economy, which were the principles of common sense.
( The Right Honourable Gentleman here read a letter from
the chairman of a relief committee in the county of West-
meath, showing that the most beneficial course had been to
charge the produce at the usual rates sought by private
dealers. The Right Honourable Gentleman continued by
stating that this was only a specimen of the general feeling in
Ireland of those who had experience respecting these matters.
The Government had considered that their best course was
to do nothing which would check or interfere with
the retail dealer.—( Hear, hear.) It was real huma-
nity and real wisdom for them to follow the dictates
of experience and common sense, which were also the doe-
trines of political economy. Complaint had also been wade
why the Government had not stopped distilling from grain in
Ireland. If distilling had been stopped in Ireland, there was
ma reason why it should not have been stopped in Scotland
and England, the effect of which would have been to have
renewed smuggling to a very great extent, and enriched those
who had large stocks of spirits on hand while those
who had small quantities would have been seriously
injured.—( Hear, hear.) He believed no practical relief
would have been gained by such an arrangement. While on
'his subject, he would refer to what had fallen from the Hon. ,
Member for Meath, who had represented a distillery in
Dublin as using large quantities of oats and other grain.
la answer to that he was bound to state to the House that he
had received a letter from that firm, which stated that Al
the grain which had been used had been imported from abroad.
Such a course would prevent many persons from obtaining
labour in distilleries, while they would not succeed in saving
any provisions. He was unwilling, on the present occasion, to
make many observations about what had been said with regard
to the measures proposed by her Majesty's Government for the
relief of Ireland. He felt that these measures were so im-
portant that they deserved a grave and general consideration,
and they could not be discussed with advantage in the general
manner in which only they could be treated en the present
occasion. He would only observe that it was unjtua to say of the
Government that it was characterised by a desire to enrich the
Irish landlords without considering the effect on the main body of
the people of Ireland. Let them consider what were the wants of
Ireland at the present moment. One of the greatest of her
wants was employment for her population, and be knew no
immediate way of providing employment unless by the agency
;if the State. The Government had offered assistance to the
landowners to enable them to employ the great body
of the people, and allowing that to be the
sound principle recognised by England, it could be
effected by loans to the landowners. It had been said that
these loans were not to be repaid. On the contrary, it would
be paid, and he would call the attention of those who doubted
the fact, that all loans previously advanced to the Irish land-
lords had usually been repaid. It was not only just to the
country, but to the Imperial Treasury. The circum-
stances under which the present loan was proposed were
of the greatest consequence. It was impossible not to see how
sweeping had been the calamity, the destruction of food, and
what millions now lived on the surface of the soil of Ireland
without the prospect of sufficient food for their subsistence, as
well as at once to see of what consequence it was to give every
stimulus, by legitimate and particular means, to the productive-
ness of the soil of Ireland. The project of draining the waste
lands must be a means of producing a great increase in the
crops. It was necessary to carry this principle into effect, and
it would be for them to decide in what manner when the de-
tails of the Bill should be laid before them. He did not know
that he need tresspass any further in addressing the House,
except to say that he felt the greatest gratification at the tem-
perate spirit in which the House had treated the most import-
ant measure now submitted to their consideration and delibera-
tion. He agreed that that spirit was of the greatest benefit
to Ireland. The spirit evinced by the House on that occasion
was of equal importance to Ireland as the measures themselves.
—( Hear, hear.) He could not help hoping that it would be of
benefit to that country, when he saw that the spirit of union
and energy were spreading themselves, and a spirit of mode-
ration rising up, from which they might expect the best con-
sequences. He was sure that the English nation was only
anxious to supply the wants and wishes of the Irish people;
and as long as they pursued the temperate and tolerant course
which had made its appearance, they should not have to com-
plain of the Parliament or the people of England—either
would be ready to do for her all that she could naturally ex-
pect.—( Cheers. )
Sir R. PEEL said, Sir I concur with the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman that it will be much more advantageous to discuss the
measures intended to effect a permanent improvement in the
condition of society in Ireland when we shall be put in posses-
sion of the details of the measure, more than by the present
Bill, and enabled to enter into a debate upon it. At the same
time, lam not surprised that those gentlemen connected with
Ireland, after the scenes they have witnessed, and after the
struggles and difficulties they have felt, feel, as they must do,
deeply interested in the welfare of their native coun-
try, and deeply sympathise with those suffering
from the terrible effects of the calamity with which it is
afflicted. lam not surprised that they should feel themselves
anxious, at the earliest opportunity, to submit their views with
respect to the operation of measures of this important nature to
this House. I for one not having this motive for entering upon
tt,soo,
hdiscuss
eaant
thye oniseiepdi
amiyheei n
trien
Aes
you mightv,in,:yennidledso)tomereaa.,:hr, the difficulties
a discussion which they have, feel that it is of
t the present time I ale unwilling
much importance that we should proceed at once
bra
prepared to grant but as I think that you are entitled to frame a
full and complete liberty to her 'Majesty', ( lovernment from the
responsibility of the course which they are pursuing it may be
advantageous at once to decide that the Bill which
grants
oyfoutmheay
entirely
rtir
circumstanceselyapprove of underthe whichassumption
this
of
that
responsibility
that indemnity, and which Parliament seems willing to
accede, should be prefaced by a full explanation
has been assumed by the Government.—(Hear, hear.)
responsi-
bility, yet still, when the executive Government,. however
justifiably it may be, undertakes to supersede the ordinary ope-
ration of the law, I doubt wither it is not for the public ad-
vantage that all the circumstances connected with that assump-
tion of power by the Executive should be fully stated. I ad-
vise Hon. Gentlemen to consider whether, in taking the liberal
power, they should not explain the circumstances under which
the ordinary law is superseded, and whether it will not
be for the advantage of those who may hereafter refer to this
assumption of power—that the indemnity granted by Parlia-
ment should be placed in the preamble. or appendix to the
Bill, and to set forth the particular letter read by the Noble
Lord. I am prepared to vote at once for this Bill, giving an
indemnity to the Government. With respect to the details of
the Bill, and as it is intended to make a total alteration of
the system under which relief is now granted. I also
at once give my consent to it. I think the
evil of the present system very great, and I think
that the sooner you apply the remedy the better. I cannot
help thinking that there is great danger consid,ringliow
nearly we approach that periud when the peasantry
should
i
not be employed in labouring at productive works. So far
as concerns the harvest of next year it will enable the
Government to make a material alteration in the pre-
sent system by permitting labour to be applied to
the cultivation of the soil.—(Hear, .
hear There are
.carcely two months when, without reference to
spring corn, labour ought to be most actively employed.
I know that labour is sometimes nut applied in Ireland, partly
from the condition of the soil, and partly from the superior
moistness of the climate. The sooner, however, that you
make an alteration in the present system with regard to the ;
cultivation of the soil, the better it will be for the country. I
am rather surprised that the Right Hon. Gentlemen underrate,
the danger arising from tne application of labour to public
works. Did not the Right Hon. Gentleman remember that,
in August last, he resisted the operations of the late Govern-
ment, and said when only between 60,000 and 70,000 were
employed on the public works, %hat great inconvenience arose,
from the labour being diverted into the ordinary channels
How much more must that inconvenience be now? I

thought that the conduct of the Irish landlords deserve
praise; and the active benevolence of the ladies has suf.