The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-23 00:00:00

leaving the religious portion of the education to the '
clergymen of the different denominations, and to the
parents of the children. He perfectly concurred in the
remarks of the Noble Lord, the Member for Arundel,
(Lord Surrey), who spoke so much to his credit the other
night.—(Hear. hear.) As, he said, that although those
of the Roman Catholic persuasion were not to participate
in the grant that he should not, on that ground deny aid
from the funds of the State for the purpose of aiding in
yp reot mhoe ta' ng
(Sir
Iv . James)edification
coonugl
ds t
no
ot ht ehre sl
pe c ts.
thinking(fl ear
that
h, ha
te at r.h e)
exclusion of that portion of the community
would be another Catholic disability.—(Hear, hear.)
He thought the speech of the Hon. Member for Durham
was one more against the Church and the aristocracy
than anything else ; and he regretted to see a Gentle-
man, who had attained such a position in the country,
would come forward and give utterance to such preju-
diced sentiments as he had done.
Sir JOHN EASTHOPE said it was with the deepest
regret that he saw her Majesty's Government submit to
consult the expedieney of the moment, which they had
done in the present measure. There were great objec-
tions to it, and there was one greater, and that was the
unfortunate compromise made between the Church of
England and the Wesleyans, by which the Catholics
were excluded.—(Hear, hear.) He admired the speech
of the Noble Lord (the Earl of Arundel), and he hoped
that the Wesleyans would from it learn true sentiments
of Christian charity.
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD said it was his
intention to vote for the Hon. Member's amendment, for
he did feel that the measure of the Government was a
violation of the rights of the people, and was a violation
of religious liberty, because it gave undue advantages to
one sect over another. He was as anxious to support
education as any man in the House; but the exclusion
of the Catholics was most unworthy of the Govern-
ment. He did give great praise to the Earl of Arundel
for his speech, but it emanated rather from the goodness
of his heart than anything else; but be would say that
the people of England would respect the Catholic body
if they stood upon their rights, for he did not
know on what principles any Catholic Member in that
House could vote for the proposition of the Government.
The Methodist bodies in the town of Rochdale were not
parties to any compromise which might have been en-
tered upon. They had commissioned him to present
many addresses, which embodied the truest principles of
religious liberty. On the subject of the Maynooth
grant, he was one of those who opposed that grant, on
the ground that it was hostile to civil and religious
rights, and he now opposed this grant on the ground that
the civil and religious rights of the Catholics themselves
were interfered with. He did not wish that the Church
to which he belonged should exercise any undue influ-
ence over the religious or civil rights of any sect which
differed from it. For these various reasons, he would
give his vote in favour of the amendment.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH entirely agreed in the
opinion of the Hon. Member who h'ad last spoken, and
Kith the Hon. Member for Montrose, that a system of
national secular education. divested of every interference
in religious opinion, would be far preferable to the
measure proposed. With regard to the measure itself,
the first question was, should the Government interfere
at all in the education of the people ?—secondly, to
what extent it should do so ?—and, thirdly, as to the
nature of the education to be given by them ? There
were many opinions upon this subject outside, in favour
of the non-interference of the Government under any
circumstances ; but he would ask whether it was not the
duty of every Government to promote the interests of
the public and of the Government by educating the
people? The Government should teach the people the
difference between right and wrong, as that alone would
make them willingly obedient to the laws ; and,:there-
fore, the education of the people was a matter of
primary importance to the State. He thought that
the State should educate the people. With regard to
crime, they were at that moment at their wits' end to
prevent its increase. He was chairman of a Committee
which had to deliberate with reference to this subject,
and they could devise no means to prevent its increase.
Although good gaols and good gaolers might in some
degree cheek the progress of crime, yet he thought that
good schools and good schoolmasters would check it
still more. No person objected to large expenditure on
the part of the State in matters of less importance than
the education of the people, and there should, therefore,
no objection be offered in any expenditure fur that edu •
cation. He would ask those who were the opponents of
State interference, if there were not hundreds of thou-
sands of people in this country too poor to educate their
children ? How then were they to be educated, except
by private charity, under which such an efficient system
of superintendence as could be exercised under a na-
tional regulation would be impossible. Many of these
educational charities, especially those supported
by voluntary contributions, were deficient in
funds, depending upon accidental donations for
their resources, to increase which they were
obliged to have recourse to the most unfortunate,
and he might almost say degrading solicitations. If he
were a member of the humbler class he should feel it

more consonant with his feelings to have his children
educated at the expense of the state than by private
charity. He should rather claim the education of his
children from the State as a right, and to which he was
entitled for the benefit of the community, than receive it
from the uncertain bounty of his fellows citizens, from
whom he should take it as a boon and as a favour.—
(Hear, hear.) The next question was as to what extent,
and in, what manner the State should interfere in edu-
cation? In his opinion the State should interfere so
far as that, no children should from want of means re-
main ignorant of so much of the elements of an educa-
tion as would tend to save them from crime.—(Hear.)
This system should be carried out without reference
to creed or belief. There had been three methods pro •
posed in which this interference on the part of the State
should have been made, of which he considered that the
only practicable one was the proposal that the State
should contribute to the support of the alreedy existing
schools of each sect. The dissenters of a certain class
had, to some extent, thrown an obstacle in the way of
the last measure which he had mentioned, as they had
a consciencious objection to receiving any grant from the
State. In our eastern dominions the people were some-
times in danger of perishing by starvation, from the
failure of the rice crop, and the Government attempted
to remedy the deficiency by supplies of animal food, to
which the people had an insuperable objection, founded
on their religion. lie thought that what food
was to the body, education was to the mind.
the last objection to which he would refer, was a very
grave one. It was the proposition to leave out the Ro-
man Catholic altogether. He had been much astonished
at this arrangement, and up to this week he believed no
one out of the Government knew that such an exclusion
would be proposed. He regretted the interpretation
which had been given to the minutes of 1839. This in-
terpretation had not, however, been given to it till 1847.
Since 1839 till then, no such interpretation had taken
place. The Noble Lord said, that as soon as Roman
Catholics applied for the grant their application would
be taken into consideration, but that, as yet, no such ap-
plication had been made. This was, however, incorrect.
In February last a Mr. Langdon applied to the Council
in respect to the educational grant, and Dr. Kay Shut-
tleworth replied to him, that their Lordships would, if
a definite application was made to them in respect to the
Roman Catholics, they would give it their most careful
consideration. That this was the interpretation of the
minutes would seem to he the case, from the proceedings
of the Wesleyan Committee of Education, in March
and April 1844, according to certain letters
and documents of theirs, published in last week's
Watchman. To the letters there addressed to the Coun-
cil of Education they replied that they would be disposed
to give every consideration to any objections the Wes-
leyans might have to offer to the mode recommended by
the former. A conference ensued, in which the Council
made such explanations about the Scriptures being either
read daily entire, or extracts from them, in the schools,
such as to remove the objections of the Wesleyans.
This would have included the Catholics, as nothing was
then said about the authorised verson being alone used.
(The Hon. Member then quoted the resolutions of a
public meeting, held a few days ago, the Earl of Shrews-
bury in the chair, complaining of the exclusion to which
the Government proposed to subject them in this grant.)
After the speeches made by the Noble Lord the Member
For the West Riding of Yorkshire (Lord Morpeth), and
the Right Hun. Baronet the Member for Devonport (Sir
G. Grey), he felt encouraged to give notice that he
would move, in some stage of the present question, a re-
solution declaring that in any future grant the Roman
Catholics should be admitted to participate in it on the
same footiug as other religious sects.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord MAHON supported the proposition of the Go-
vernment. When they considered the enormous amount
of ignorance which prevailed, he could not see what other
course they could take than supporting this grant. By re-
ferring to the various reports submitted to this House,
they would find the enormous amount of ignorance which
prevailed and the necessity which existed for the change
It was impossible that they could have things as,
they were,• and a change was, therefore, necessary.
If this plan of the Hon. Member for Dumfries were im-
practicable, as he thought it was, then there remained
only some such measure as that of her Majesty's
Government. He thought, for instance, that the propo-
sition of providing retiring pensions and situations,
under certain circumstances, under Government, would
require to be abandoned. Still, as a whole, he would
undoubtedly support the Government, believing their
scheme to have been brought forward in an earnest and
truthful spirit. When he looked to the present artificial
state of society, he could not think that they were alto-
gether faultless who opposed even this limited measure
of education ; he thought that they should, before
punishing crime, give the people the means of knowing
good from evil.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that he was always
very unwilling unnecessarily to occupy the time and
attention of the House, but as he concluded that the
Hon. Member for Finsbury intended to press his motion
to a division, he could not reconcile it to his sense of
duty to give a silent vote on that occasion. The motion
made by the Noble Lord at the head of the G ivernment
was that they should resolve themselves into a Commit-
teeas an
of Supply for the purpose of voting 100,0001. of the
tlaigatuiaryS.elecNtow.;t
public money in aid of education. Tee motion moved
amendment, by the Hon. Member for Finsbury was
subject, that anCommittee be appointed for the purpose of
facts were notoroappeared to him, in reference to this
inquiryos was altogether superfluous. The
quacy of the mean' sand f that there was a great inade-
isdnucation in England was
wasadm itoiteaddeon(asall hhaanddsieenThhie motioted n then, he presumed,
) for the purpose of
conveying a censure on her Majesty's
artsovoefrnment—(ex-
the 11,417
pressions of dissent from differen p
House)—
and although ho was not prepared to say that
been committed in this matter, yet it would, consideringnot
the difficulties which surrounded the question, be tem be in his
opinion unjust in the extreme to mark with severity
any -thing that might have been done amiss. He ,was
well aware of the extreme difficulty that attended this
question, and be felt bound to say, therefore, that they
should rather endeavour to rectify their omissions, than

ensure what they might discover to be wrong. It was
in this spirit that he should direct his attention to the
matter under discussion ; and on the threshold of this
subject the abstract question presented itself, as to
whether it was, or was not, the duty of the State to in-
terfere with the education of the people. He could not
hesitate, in discussing this abstract question, at coming to
the conclusion that it was not only one among the highest
duties of the State, but among the noblest, if not indeed
the most noble, functions of the Government, to do
everything to extend and diffuse knowledge, to elevate
the moral, and cultivate the religious feeling of the
people committed to its care, and looking at this as a
Christian assembly, he could not hesitate to state that
the noblest and purest system of education for the
people was that system of morals which had received
the Divine sanction, and which held out to mankind on
the one hand a future state of eternal reward, or on the
other a state of eternal punishment. But this view of
the subject would lead him into considerations which at
present he did not intend to enter upon. To pass them
from that subject, and to tura from the abstract to the
practical question, if it were to be admitted for the pur-
poses of the debate, that in the abstract it was
the duty of the State to promote the education of
the people, the real question as a practical
one would be, how could that duty be best performed?
Now, as was the case with all matters of poliey, the
practical question must be considered in reference to the
varied circumstances in the different parts of the United
Kingdom. The question had been transferred to Scot-
land by the most able and eloquent Gentleman who re-
presented the metropolis of that country, and in refer-
ence to Scotland, it should be remembered that at an
early period of its history the happy circumstances oc-
curred of the one religion being embraced by the entire
people, and the education of the country was delegated
to the Church. There was here no difficulty, as, when
the Presbyterian religion was first introduced in the reign
of James 1., and again in the reign of William 111., edu-
cation was altogether confided to the national
Church, formed part of its social and prac-
tical system, and received the sanction of the
Scottish Parliament first, and afterwards of the Parlia-
ment of the United Kingdom. The education of the
people progressed in strict alliance with the Church as
by law established until the late disruption, which he
to that day deplored. Religious feelings and secular edu-
cation went hand in hand, and very many circumstances
combined to elevate the people of that portion of the
island in history, and enabled the country, notwith-
standing its natural disadvantages and its poverty, to
rise to a level with the highest and most civilised nations
in the world.—(Llear, hear.) In Ireland, again, the
circumstances were exactly different. There the reli-
gion of the State was the religion of a small minority ;
dissent from that religion was the distinguishing fea-
ture of the great majority in that country.
Their religion was not recognised by the State,
bat Parliament had granted, year by year, considerable
sums of private money, not in alliance with the Church,
indeed, but still by this system Dissenters were admitted
to partake of benefits in which Churchmen alto parti-
cipated. It was, therefore, consistent both with the
practice and policy of the case that the views of the Go-
vernment should vary with the varied circumstances of
the United Kingdom. And now let them turn to Eng-
land. Here from an early period, unhappily to the latest
period, to that very hour, the greatest differences had
arisen on the subject of religion, and every class of the
community had been bitterly divided on the subject of
their religious faith. In that difference of opinion on
religious matters had consisted the real difficulty
of legislating on the subject of education. The
State had encountered violent and uncalled-for
interference both from the members of the Church and
the supporters of different religious persuasions. Now he
felt bound to say that in his own person he had some
experience with reference to the attempts of Ministers
of the Crown to interfere on this subject,—(Hear, hear,
anti laughter,)—and he had never been enabled to do as
much for education as his zeal would have led him to do.
But he had done this at all events; ho had navigated the
channel, he had sounded all the depths, and he had
marked the rocks and the shoals which were to be
avoided by future Governments.—(Hear, hear.) If he
had done no more, he had at least done this ; he had
shown the Government that succeeded, that which they

ought to avoid if they wished to bring forward a measure
calculated to extend the education of the people. He
thought then, that it was indispensably necessary that
the course which had been hitherto pursued
should not be persevered in, namely, that an
annual vote should be taken, and that from time
to time rules and regulations should be determined
upon in the deliberations of that House. Now, he did
not think it altogether superfluous to point out how
occasional assistance ought to be administered with
caution, by the State for the education of the people.
Under the Government of Lord Grey, a small sum was
asked for the aid of building school-houses. That
small sum was, he believed, 20,0001., or 30,000/., to be
disposed of under the inspection of the Government;
but by other, and after regulations, the distribution of
that sum was placed at the disposal of the Committee
of Privy Council. Of course, under the circumstances,
to which he had adverted, the difference of opinion in
matters of religion rendered it cxeeedingly difficult to
give any aid for the purposes of religious and secular
education; and, therefore, it was limited to the mere
external fabric of the schools. Grants were subse-
quently made to two institutions, the one the National
Society, immediately connected with the Established
Church, and the other, the British and Foreign Society,
which had the confidence of a large portion of the Dis-
senting bodies. Until a recent period, in the year 1839,
no assistance was given, except for the single pur-
pose of building schools, and a further restriction
was observed that the schools to be built must be con-
nected with one or other of those societies. The first

relaxation of that rule took place when Lord Melbourne
was at the head of the Government, but the order of
Council of 1839 still maintained, as an indispensable con-
dition that these schools should be connected with one
or other; of these two societies. The rule was also
maintained that the assistance of Government should
only be given for the building of the fabric, except in
special cases; these special cases were to be connected

with one or other of these two societies. fie was no'

aware that the Government of Lord Nlelbourn.. ever en.
tertained any more than two or three of these special
cases, and they took care that in these cases the

requirements should be rigorously executed. He
thought that the first time assistance was given,
to the amount of 5000/., for 1842, to two normal
schools in connexion with the two societies,
In the year 1843 an annual vote of 1,0001. per annum to
the National School, and 750/. to the British and Fo-
reign Schools, was substituted in lieu of occasional
grants, and annual contributions were also given in aid
of the Normal Schools of Scotland. After this depar-
ture from the original rules, applications were pressed
upon this Committee for annual contributions in aid of
maintenance of the members connected with those
Schools. When thi.se cases were to be considered, he
felt it his duty to state to the House, that these cases
would be sure to be interrupted, and they would be in-
volved in such a discussion as they were now engaged
in ; and they would find it necessary altogether to
desist from allowing these grants. If it could be
shown that the means of education were deficient,
and that Parliament determined to give grants to one
denomination, then ho showed that on the same prin-
ciple they were bound to extend that provision to all
persuasions.—(Hear, hear.) A time had now, however,
come when they felt it necessary that some assistance
should be afforded to the Dissenting bodies in the cause
of education, and he was greatly rejoiced that they
should, at last, be allowed to receive that assistance
which they so well merited by their exertions. But he
was bouaeL to say that if they admitted the principle,
that assistance should be given to the Dissenting body,
the Roman Catholics should also be allowed to parti-
cipate in the benefit. The only ground of
exclusion which was alleged, was, that they
did not use the authorised version of the
Scriptures ; but what was the authorised version of the
Roman Catholics ? It was the bible from which Bossett
and Fenelon drew the texts from which they preached,
and from which Pascal drew his immortal thoughts.
Would it be told them that this version was to be the
sole barrier against the admission of Roman Catholics
to the benefits which the State had provided ? Surely
Protestant zeal would not go so far as that. The Hon.
Member for Southwark had referred to Mr. Landell,
he (Sir J. Graham) had long had the honour
of an intimate acquaintance with that gentle-
man, and he assured the House that his
every word might be depended on implicitly.
He was of opinion that an effort should be made by
the overnment in order to ascertain whether terms could
not be agreed on by which the Roman Catholics might
be enabled to come in for some share of the benefits of
Government assistance.—(Hear, hear.) He was bound
to say that he could see something like expediency in
not doing so on the present occasion, but he did not see
any justice in doing so. (Cheers.) The present
vote was not a vote of 100,0001. only, it was in addition
to the sum authorised to be expended under the new
minutes. By this vote, which might cause an outlay—
which he for one did not grudge—of not less than
1,000,000/.—some persons had set it down at 2,000,0001.
—now, lout of all this sum the Catholics would
not receive one shilling, and the whole subject
was to be put off to an indefinite period, when the con-
sideration of the question would be brought forward by
itself, and, he must say, invidiously.—(Cheers.) Ile
thought that the proper time to do justice to his Roman
Catholic fellow subjects was the present moment.
He should not vote on the present occasion with the
Hon. siember for Finsbury, because he thought that the
course taken by Government was justifiable and prudent
with this single exception, however, that they ought to
have allowed the Roman Catholics to participate in the
vote.—(Hear, hear.) He thought it was infinitely better
to proceed by order in Council in the present state of
feeling in this country, than to attempt by Act of Parlia-
ment to establish any uniform system which would not
be in accordance with the general wishes of the people.
The good, however, that might arise from the course pur-
sued by the Government, he would not purchase at the
expense of what he thought was due to his Roman Ca-
tholic fellow subjects.—( tear, hear.) lie must, there•
fore repeat that he entirely approved of the Government
measure, wit's the single exception he had named, and
he really thought it would be averse to all religious li-
berty and religious toleration it' his Roman Catholic fel-
low subjects were to be excluded from participating in
this plan.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Sir, I own after three
nights' debate, I rise very considerably relieved of any
apprehension I might have entertained with respect to
the course the discussion might have taken. The great
objection stated to the front of this measure .
was, that the State ought not to interfere with
tile education of the people, and the various
petitions presented to this House on the subject, or at
least the greater part of them were declared to be against
that principle, while the 500 delegates assembled from
various parts of the country declared that experience
has convinced them that a rule ought to be laid down
that the State should not interfere with the education of