The Sun.
London, England, 1812-06-17 00:00:00

'HOUSE OF CO:qMONS-TUESPAY.

The House went into a Committee' on the Glass
Ditty .Drawbacks, in which certain Resolut:ons
were agreed'to, the RepOrt of which was ordered
tevbe received to-Morrow-

The Bill to preiient Starch being' made from
teas. brought in, read a firt, -and Ordered
to be read a second :time to-morrow.

Mr: W. POLE, in a'Committee, proposed .a re-7
solutiwi to exempt the
,WOol sold by
.the Irish
Farming Society by -auction, in Dublin, from the
Auction Duty, which was agreed t 0.., , • • .
14r, WHARTON brought in &Bill to transfer
the-SeotCh Excise Charity Superannuation-Fund
to the consolidated nind. Read a..;first, 'and
Ordered to be read a second-time tomorrow.
Mr. LOON:HART, withdrew the- notice he had
giVen, reTeeting American Claims.
Mr. POLE, ;pursuant to his notice, rose to
move for leare to bring in a Ijtl to amend certain
Acts relative to the Custom Duties in Ireland, par,
ticularly in the case of surcharges. =The:time al-
lowed by the 49th of the sing for making sur-
charges was four months,-but this was foUnd very
inconvenient, as the colleclors made theirreturnS
every three months. It was now proptvtd .to
allow six months to make • the surcharges,
three months for any claims that might be.
made in consequence of them, and one month to'
rectify any errors that might, occur : by these
means the collection of the Duties would be fa-
cilitated, and the Merchant prcite:cted. He also
prOpOsed in this Bill, to give .a power to -the
officers to remove the merchanytz lock from the
King's stOrts, upon giving , the merchant
hours notice.

Leave was given to bring in the Bill:
.I.lr. POLE moved for leave to brinz in a Bill to
itnttiid the relo.ting to the Inland Excise iu
Ireland. The first object of the Bill was to re-
peal that part of, the law which imposed a fine
upon town lands upon which illegal stills were
found. He considered this law as highly oppres-
sive, and therefore proposed to remove it front the
Statute-boolt. : but it would be.necessary to adopt
some other regulation in its 'stead. He should .
therefore propose to give the Commissioners and
Sub-CoraTissioners a' power to try informations,
as well as:Magistrates. That unlicensed distillers
should not •be allowed to appeal, against ,convic-
tions, without giving security to try' the appeal.
That a penalty of 20-01. should be imposed upon
distillers retailing spirits, and that'a penalty should,
be.imposed upon persons laving- pot ale or sing-
lings in casks. The Bill also would have some
, .
regulations respecting ueaters leather.

-The motion wi•as reed .to.
The _House went into a Committee on the Irish
Commissioners of Appeals Grant Bill. Report
ordered to be received to-morrow.

Mr. LusxmorrOs brought up the neport of
the Committees of Supply, and Ways and Means,
which were agreed to..
Mr.;•T, dix.v.ERT gave notice, that he would to-
morrow move for an Account of the number .of
French Prisoners at liberty on their parole ; and
also for a Rciairn of the number Who had escitped
by the violation of it. .
The Hoitse resolved itself into Co.mmittees on
the Bermuda and Bahama Trade, in which it was
resolved that .the Chairman should ask leave- to,
bring in Bills to authorise the exportation of
their produce in foreign vessels to Atherica, kkc.
the. same having been preVlimly,imported -in
.Diitish ships. Bills `were ordered accordingly.
The House went into a Committee on the .?..TeT.v-
founalland Trade Bill, in which it was proposed',
to impose an additional-duty on spirits imported
the!.*. The Report was ordered to be. received
to-morrow;

The Copper aides Bill was read a second time,
and committed for to-morrow.

The Report of the Bank Tolienßill was hrought
up' and agreed-to, acid the Bill ordered to be read
a third.litne to-morrow.

• •Mr. WROTTESLEY brOught up the Report of
the General Inclosure Bill, which was ordered to
be printed, and to be_ taken into further Considera-
tion on Monday..
Sir F. BURDETT called the attention of the
Gentletheu belonging to the Admiralty, to the
Case of an individual frOm whoiii he had received
a letter, and whom he believed to be -an American.
This ,persoc, whose name was Williamson,-stated
himself to be a native of America, having been
born in Long Island, in the state of New York.
He had Come to England,•and had been pressed
and taken • to the Note. He would not enter
into the service, but took , an opportunity to.
escape. He was, however, I•etaken, and had
been carried back as a deserter, and, lie under-
stood him to be at present onboard the Enter-
prise. The Hon. Baronet_ then stated, that he
held in his hand a Petition from a Debtor in
Lancaster Castle, complaining of
/the conduct of

The Petition was then read.7—Ori the question
being put, that this Petition do lie on the table,
Mr. BLACKBURN said he had that morning re-
ceived a letter. from a Gentleman who had been
making inquiries on'the subject, which repre-;
sented the conduct of Mr. Viggins (the gaoler)
to be pry different fro.in whit it
.was the object
of the Petition before the House -to make it ap-
pear. The lion. Gentleman then begged ,leacc
to read the unanimous decision of the Magistrates,
who on a foiimet occasion had
_investigated the
conduct of Mr. Higgins, on several char es
ferred by Jacob Wardle and two persons of the
names of Mallevue and Goulding. Their decilori. -
was, that thecharges preferred against him were -
unfounded, and malicious. He believed these.
charges originated' with some cif the
,prisoneri
under the care of
.Mr. Higgins, who -were diS-
'posed to resist the exercise of that authority,
which was legallyvefrst,ed in the jailor.
Sir F. BURDFiTT repeated what he had asseited
on a former evenitig,that he could not answer
for the correctness of the filets set forth in the
Petition:

On the question ,being put, considerable oppo-
,sitron was made to its being iaid on the to
frhe Speaker thought the ‘‘.. Noes had it." The
gallery, however, was cleared for a division, Ozlt
we could not learn the result.
/WIDER'S IN cauNdm.

, .
Mr. BROUGHAM rose to bring before the Horse
a'proposition on a Subject Which •had already oc-
cupied 'much of the Bession, and of Which he did
not exaggerate- the importance when he stated it
to, be the_post important on' Whiah that _House
could at presentcome.to a decision. After a pain-
ful inquiry of six weeks, and after going' throUa'h
a mass of evidence and papers which were,.he he-'
lieVed,• Unparalleled, it 'no* behoved the House to
. make up their minds on th4subjeet, and to dis,:
charge the duty Which they owed to the Crowd
and to'the Country, bx giving their advice as to,
the course proper to be purSued, under the pre...
sent circumstances of -the people. : The dillicul-,-.
ties in which the question as to.the course proper,
to be pursued was involved, were, in his opinion,
very small. That they were exceedingly small
would; he thought, be admitted by those who
were, best acquainted-with thedetails contained in
theinase.of papers before them. He thought he
shohld be able not merely to convince those who
had assisted in the Committee, or those who had
read the Minutes of the Evidence given befo7-'e
tii :f ; b tit ,--Crx tho:,+:2. Wllt.: ri 1".0 iiiii Ltr, itir....ttitu a
lia great measure on I subject, if they would do him:- - /-
the honour to listen to the-facts which he should
have to state, that it had seldom occurred that
the subject of discussicir could be brought within
a narrower compass, where the road to a ptep,,z,
and to a beneficial qiecisiOn, was surer and shot
er, and where the conclusion it Was desirableto
arrive -.at, lay nearer the surface of the 'evidence
before them. :,He had; 'however, one painful task,
to perform, a task from whiCh he would gladly
recede, if duty'Would permit. It was this, that
he was obliged to recall to those who had attend-
ed the Committee, and, to state for the informa,
tion- of 'those . numerous Gentlemen who heard
him; who had not been preaent, on the Commit--
. tee„ those scenes of 'distress which' had, been dis-
closed to their view ; •Fcones which' he must in-,
' deed want feeling, who could contemplate them,
Without . emotion:: The great and unexampled
distress which was felt was seen in some measure
in, the aconduct of the lower orders,. who ' were
ready to gibe up their whole•time by day and by.
night.to the prosecution of:the late inquiry. 'The
distress-which w‘als', felt in "the country,_. it might
be said, they had almost
.Seen at:their bar, -when
they saw thoSe:ancient and respectable men stand-
i., in,.. at it, -Wilo.had come forivard, not to larnerif
' the loss:of their own ,f;o4unes , fortunes whicil their
industry-. had amaised, and iirhiCh they had in a..‘
great measure 'exhatiSted .'4, their eadeavours to
keep their laboui-ers employed. . When such per-,'
so:is'came fora and to lament teal their own'
enjoyments, were gthie,„ but that they. were de-
. prived .of the means of logger enabling, their'la-
bourerst6 procure. the coinforts .and necessaries of
,life„ after relieving their distresses at:their own
risk and expellee for months {tie might almost sae
for years) when such persons came forward to
state, that now, after all, they-found themse/ves
Ort the brink of this dileMina, they must expose to
want. or turn-off their journeyman, it might be•
said that they themselves had seen• the distress o4'
the country. He 'could wish to 'postpone going
into 'these scenes •of affliction, and would rather-
ask the Llthise to come to a decision on those
more general scenes ofdistress, which-he 'must
have shut his eyes acid .his: ears who had neither
seen them nor heard of them within the last six
months. He would first speak of the Petitions
whiCh had been presented to them, though on
this subject he need not say Much,' and yet on
this subject he might naturally Melt for what
were they now to. do but to decide on the merits-
of the orders in Council considered merely- as
mercantile measures ? What were they to think of
these,viewed,in this light, when those for whoSe
protaletion and benefit they were intended were
loud and unanimous 'in calling for their repeal ;
when those who Were to be benefitted by them,.
begged to be relieved from their friends, and
entreated to be given to .the' machinations of
their eneinies.—Warwickshire, Yorkshire, and
Lancashire, with one voice called for theia
repeal, and were united in deploring their effects.
The resources to which our suffering manufactur-
ers had recurred, formed a melancholy addition to
the picture; of these, some were the reverse or

! 1- 1
what could bessvisileas, and other ware misplaced.
aas . s which had been committed in various
p.i. tile country no one could blame more
than.Se did, but at the same time he thought no
one could witness these excesses (viewing' the
Source whence they proceeded) without compas-
sion Ansither of the resources to wbich they
had been driven, Was that of recurring to an old
statute (as theyhave seen thousands of manufac-
turers do), a statute almost obsolete: for fixing
• the rate of wages. Another was to be traced in
the
.petitions to that House from certain poor
people; praying the House to abOlish useless sine-
cures. This prayer, if coniplied.With, he did not
say, would afford the relief; which the Pcti-
tioners hoped and desired s,hitt though such could
not be its effect, still;; if thS ritianber of those were
lessened who had an interest in the 'continuance
of the war, the country might be:better guarded
than at present againstthe: reentrance of such a
calamity. Another watt -to 'seen when they
looked to the numbers who had.petitiOn`ed against
the continuance, of the East India Monopoly-, for
to the necessity tc Which they (theinanalactitrers,
&c.) were reduceds could:ndt.istit attribute 'the
numerous petitions -which reCeived..—:
That many were justified in al6ing so, notonly in
a moral point of view, -'butsin a political point of
view, with a reference to .i.heir own interest; he'
did not doubt. 'He thought the great city, of Li-
verpool might, when it advanced the claim .which
it had preferred_ to a participation in the profitable
trade to China and India. They had not only a
right to assert such a claim, hut they took aright
view of their interest when they asserted it. This
be mild say of Liverpool, but there were many
places from which petitions had been received; for.
which he could not say the same. He would give
an instance. Ile knew one district from which a
petition had been received, the produce of whieh
was suchs that their hopes of advantage from the
trade being thrown open, mustpriticipally depeed
on the amount of black-horned cattle which,they
might be able to export to the east Indies. The
porcelain manufacturers of Staffordshire had pe-
titioned, in the hope of being enabled to export •
their wares with advantage ; and the town of
Newcastle had sent up a Petition, -with a view of
being hereafter allowed to export coals for the
hot-houses, &c. in the East Indies. • These
circumstances, he contended, were symptoms of
the extent of the pressure of the distresssof the
country. It was, in his opinion, impii4ible to
'witness the conduct of the manufacturers' in the
present situation of the country, without being re-
minded of those scenes which formerly occurred
when this city was visited with the plague. At
that distressing period, according to the history
of the times, men were seen franticly running out
of their houses from their dying familiess and
eagerly asking'ads;ice of any one whom they might
chance to meet, eagerly detaining the passenger, as
if by communicating to him the infectionthey could
hope to revive the dying or the dead at home, and
to care themselves. They were further inform-
ed, that the empiric of that . day would fre-
quently come forward with. their absurd nos-
trutns, which were purchased with such avidity,
that they made large fortunes in a week or two,
and then as suddenly disappeared. As at that
day all circumstances tended to mark she public
sa sms au went to show the. 5;
state of the country, the
_magnitude of the wide
spreading evil. Here, -once for all, he wished to
state, that it was not his intention to go minute-
ly into the detail of the evidence, but 'merely to
speak generally on the subject (leaving it to his
lion. Friend,
.who had been so indefatigable in
promoting the inquiry, to go into the detail if
be thought proper), for the information .of those
who had ,not attended to the inquiry. Shortly
stating their proceedings, the case stood thus—
They had examined about 100 persons, who had
been chosen almost at random from the manufac-
tories. They had had no "difficulty in finding per-
sons ready to come forward. The only difficulty
experienced was to keep back the hundreds whO
Were ready to give their evidence against the Or-
ders in Council. All who had been examined had
been found to concur in the same story. He
begged pardon, there was one: exception, which
was an exception so remarkable, that he should
feel it his duty to speak particularly on that sub-
ject presently ; but not a single person (save the
exception to which he had alluded) bad pretended
to deny the existence of the great distress com-
plained of. If it, were not proved, he would say,
look at the situation of Warwickshire, the
grand staple for our hardware—look at Birming-
ham, which used to be, he might say, one con-
tinual work-shop, one immense hive of industry,
containing 400,000 souls ; look at it now, and
instead of what it was, behold its inhabitants,
idle half the week, and only able to work the
other half of the week for half the usual prices.
Many master-workmen had, to lheir own injury,
exerted themselves to keep on as many of. their
workmen as possible at half price ; some had
turned off their men, while others had dismissed, ,
a portion of them, and now said-to the House of
Commons, your. decision must decide the fate of
the rest. lie would not say what must be the fate of
those hundreds and thousands of labourers who
would be turned out of employ if this ;lotion
were negatived; but if they said " No," hun-
dreds and thousands of mannfactnrers must be let
loose all Over the country. The late Chancellor
of the Exchequer, in one -of- the very few con-
versations which he (Mr. B.) had had with that
distinguished character on this subject, had Said,
that it was true, he (Mr. B.) had proved his case
with, respect to the hardware manufacturers, but
be. could not prove it with respect to the woollen
manufacturers." He would maintain that the
case of the 'Woollen manufacturers was even
stronger than that of the manufacturers of hard--
ware. Look to Yorkshire, they would there see
greater capitals embarked ;* they would see one
man with a capital of 20,0001. another with one
of 25,0001. another with one of 30,0001. another
with one of- 35,0001. and one had' been brought
before them who had.,a capital ef 90,0001. so em-
barked, every farthing of-which he had stated was
now completely locked up. One very affecting
circumstance had' been stated to have occurred
at 'Kidderminster ; the poor people there with
difficulty reserved their elothes, and the fur-
niture of their cottages, to the last extremity,
lout were finally obliged to pawn them: for food,

till at length the shops of the pawntrolters *ere
quite full of such articles. The same thing had
occurred at Sheffield, with one remarkable addi-
tion : At that place, in which 40,090 workmen
had formerly been maintained, the general distress
became such, that those person s,who had Leen-in
the habit of working for master warkinen, being
no longer able to do, ',had got into the habit of
regularly carrying their work to the paWnbrokers.
The .consequence of du's was, that the pawn-
brokers had come -.to ;London; with the articles
thus purchased, and beat ,down the price of such
manfacturers in the regular market. Similar dis-
.,tress was felt by those engaged in the cotton
trade at Manchester, ,Bolton, &c. One man had
been examined who,liad been in the habit of let-
ting cottages to the poor people in the manufac-
turing districts, Mr. Bentley, a. Gentleman to
whose character the head of, the Peele family had
borne testimony. This Gentleman (Mr. Bentley)
had let out his lands 'and, his cottages to these
poor people. Formerly his rent was :sure ; but
he
.pow stated, " that he had gone to collect it,
,and seen in those cottages wheie comfort was
formerly' to he found, his tenants sitting down to
a scanty meal (their only Meg in the ;‘2.4 hours)
of oatmeal and water—a scene which affected hint
so much, that he went away without being able
toAsk for his rent. He then quoted the evidence
of several other persons to skew the distress which
existed in, the manufacturing towns, and remark-
ed, that to feel 'all the efict of the evidence, it
Wes necessary to be present when it was given,. to
note the manner, tone, and appearance, of those
by whom it was given. On the subject of the
scarcity it was now necessary for him to speak.
On this he knew there was much soreness., and it
had often been triumphantly asked,—" Do you
attribltte this to the Orders in Council ?" He
Certainly would 'do no such thing, but he would
obServe, that there were two kinds of scarcity,
the one was a scarcityof graii,:the other a scarcity
of money to; bny ,grain with.. The witnesses
,Ouestioffedso to the effect formerly produced, by
two years Of scarcity, which produced almost a
faroine, had treated it as a matter of.little im-
portance, as then there was work and wages, to
enable the manufaCturers to purchase the, peces-
siiries of life, and the evil,, comparatively apeak-:
in,. was hardly felt. To say that the scarcity
bad nothing to do with the present distresses,
was as great a blunder as it Would be to say
the Jesuits Bark Bill had nothing, to do with
the mortality in France while it .was admitted to
be true, that men died of, the agile while we
withheld the medicine, which would afford them
considerable relief. It was with the same parity
of reasoning 'that it might be contended, that the
scarcity was 'not occasioned by the, Orders in
Council, while they closed the sources to which
we -must otherwise look for relief. Our perses
vering in the same system must cause an inter-
ruption to the supply of our army in , the .Penin-
sub,. The news of the American
,embargo having
been laid on but one day, caused the 'Nike of
wheat to rise 50 per cent, at Lisbon, and when
the news reached London, the consequence was,
6000 quarters were immediately taken from the
.Market for the 4rmy in the Peninsula: The war
could not. be carried on without supplies from
America. Must then the war in the Peninsula,
oe um etwrigcsi advocates were among
thoSe who upheld the Orders in Council, be given
up to continue those Orders. in force I 'Was this
our last remaining hope of being able to pull
down the pride of. France, to be thrown away
Just when it appeared most likely to repay us for
the sacrifices it had cost ? Was it come to this,
that the war in the Peninsula, though a favourite
measure was to be giver up; because it threaten-.
ed to involve as in the evil of conciliation with
America ; merely became the same measure en-
abled us to continue the war there, would pre-
serve to us our best, our firmest friend, Atnerica,
and relieve oar heart-broken manufacturers ?
The picture of distress in this country which he,
(Mr. B.) had alluded to, had been denied by no
witness on the other side, save one,, whose evi-
dence on that subject hail been expunged. He.
only had denied that the people felt,,distress;. and
as he stood alone, he (Mr. B.) had examined'the
man as to what he conceived to be the comforts to
which an. Englishman (a manufacturer) was en-
titled, and thee a scene followed, which he would.
not describe, and he was implored by his Hon.
Friend and the Vice President of the Board of
Controul, to consent that the evidence of .which
he had spoken, should be expunged. He was
sorry he had consented to ita; being expunged, as
be could not refer to it on the Minutes. The eni-
(lenge of whom he was speaking had declared
that the people wanted nothing more, than they
had ; and that if they had more, they would have.
too much—morelhan they had. a right to have.
He (Mr. B.) had asked if he thought that oatmeal
and water wits as much as that class of which he
himself (the evidence) had been one, haul a right
to have ?—and the answer was " Yes." This
loyal merchant; for be was so loyal that he
had commenced his evidence with an attack on
Jacobinism ; this affluent merchant, for he was'
sorry to say he was one of the most affluent 'mer-
chants in the City of London, whO had gained
his means of insulting the lower orders from
the exertions of the lower orders, in aid of his
own industry, for he (Mr. B.) was sure he had
risen from ,their number, had, said, that "oat-
Meal and water were as much as the English la-
bourer had a right to ; that if he bad more he
would become pampered, and in consequence the
whole frame of society would be , unhinged."—
This want the only witness called to contradict the
story of distress told by all the others ; and, in
the absence' of facts, the supporters of the Or—
ders in Council had been obliged to fly to the
ola resource—that furnished by the inspector-
General of Exports and-Imports. • He had little
to say to him at present, but he could have wish-
ed to have had him there to , examine as to the
authenticity of his accounts. At present, when
the distress of the country was so fully proved,
it was stark -nonsense to bring him the returns of
the Inspector Of the Exports and Imports. When
they had nothing approximating nearer to that
which must give these some idea of the state of
the people's comforts as compared 'with what
they
.were, he (islr!B.) must then go to Mr., Ir-
ving. At present, his accounts were not
.wanted,
which before bad no faith or value. The teturns.

from the Custom-house'Weft On tlick Scale;
that from the fsventy-seven millions returned on
the average yearly, eight or 10,000,0001. latterly
10,000,0091. might be fairly deducted. It ap-
peared that a fellow feeling prevailed at the Cus-
tom-house and the 'Board of Trade, ath; that
there was a tendency always to enter more then
With a strict adherence to truth could be set ,
always to go on the oatside. Mr:Fry-had stated
that he had known goods entered as worth five
thousand pounds in-stead of fifty pounds which was
their true value, or more than their true value.
It was usually said at the Custom;house, f` you
may as well set clown so and so, Sir ; if the goods
are not worth so much, you may as well put them
down in round figures, a; there is no duty or draw-,
back ; as that is our way, and such is our way ;"
and such was the way of the Custom Hou'se.—
Mr. Glennie, who had very, recently given his evi-
dence, had stated, that on one occasion'the Clerk
had desired him to enter the goods taken there at
double the value. Where then was the credit clue
to these returns ? This circumstance took away
all his respect for tiaeta, even if in any case they*
could have value when brought forward in oppo-
sition to facts. But they were of no value. While
things did not fluctuate' much, thes.' accounts
might serve to keep' people M. the dark, and make
thembelieve that things Were going on nearly as
well as formerly. This, however, could be dhne
no longer. A defalcation appeared in one branch
of our trade, that which was carried on with the
United States of America,of :12,000,0001. which
had taken place in the course of twelve months.—
another branch of our trade, that with the North
of Europe; it, defalcation appeared of 6 or
7,000,0001. These fallings-off 'caused a total de-
falcation, , which `vas so great as -to baffle all, the
skill of the. Custom-house Officers, and uth last
out came that account With which they had long
been threatened; from which it-appeared that the
total change which had -taken place in- trade since
the adoption of the
.present system, had been in
one year no less tham35,000,0001. and in another.
year no less than 38,000,0001..sterlingl including
the imports and exports to all parts of the world:
After this, what became of that which:they had
been in the habit of hearing-=that if the trade of the
country had fallen off in one part of the world, it had
increased 'in another ;- that if we had no longer
the commerce as formerly en with the:United
States, we had the tra :le with Heligoland, with
Malta, with
,South America, and with North
America, to console us ? What became of all this,
.when it appeared that in one year our trade to all
parti of the world had experienced a falling off of
35,000;0001. and in another of 38,000,0001. ?
The exports of our manufactures in 1811, as cont.:-
pared with that of the, year 1809, which, after
all, was as good a year, or very nearly as good, as
1810, much as had been said of the extraordinary
amount of our exports and trade in that year ;
but comparing our exports of manufactures in
1811 with 1809, there appeared, by documents he,
had seen, a diminthion of, 16,000,0001. and hi.
eluding those of colonial produce in 1811, and
comparing them with the exports of 'manufac-
tures and colonial produce in 1810, there appear-
ed a falling off of 20,000;0001. and including both
-on the total of our exports, comparing 1811
.with
.1809, "there was a deficit of 27,000,0001.
With this-statement he woali dismiss the Cus-
tom-house accounts. Giving up, the evidenie of
Messrs. Fry and Glehnie, these accounts them-
selves did not prove what he had stated ; that
was proved before, but they confirmed his state-
ment- of-the case. The non. Gentleman now pro-
ceeded to take-a view of the value of the markets
furnished. by SOuth America, Heligoland,, North
America, and other places which had been named
as furnishing a Set-ott against the loss of the trade
tb the United States. Of these, South -America
was the principal, but there it appeared the Mer-
chants engaged, instead of gaining 30, 40, or 50
per cent. had lost 50 per cent. He could 'hardly
help being -disposed to laugh, when
.the Right
Hon. Gentleman examined' his "witnesses on this
point. When they told hint that a loss of 50 per
cent. was incurred, he exclaimed, " What ?
loss on the trade to South Ainerical," anSwered in
the affirmative. "His' next inquiry was; " What
had they shipped?" :When. told that they had
shipped for South America, woollen manufactures,'
hardware, &c. 'his cry was, " Why how could--
You think of sending such things ? You might be.
sure of 'losing if You sent out such articles." Ih
the situation in which the Right Hon, Gehtleman
had been placed, he had actually rated his own
witnesses, as if they ought to have gone to the
Board ,of Trade- to get their cargoes assorted. Had

they done this, perhaps the Itight lion. Gentle-
man
.and the Noble Lord would haVe made such
an assortment, and given such directions, that
they might have had a chance, not of gaining any
thing in the trade,. but_of losing,only 20. instead-
of 50 per Cent. When it was first attempted to
establish a trade with 'North America, 'great en-
couragement was necessarily held out to smug-
gling, and this smuggling system swelled the
amount of our exports ; but when the effects of
this causedithe people of the United States to unite
heart and hand with .the Government against the
system adopted by England, there was an end to
this smuggling, and away went our Canada trade.
If the 'trade with America, was . opened, still the
Canada trade would not be deteriorated, for the
same profits, the same sureness- would remain:
Now, with !respect to, the benefits which this
Country would have derived from a free trade to
America, it was proved by a Merchant of consi-
derable eminence in the United States (a Mr.
White) that of the twelve millions annuallF ex-
ported into the States from Great Britain, not
one-thirteenth is exported to South America, the
principal article exported there being Preneh silks,
and not British goods. He would now look at
the Home trade, to which the Vice-President of
the Board of Trade had. examined evidence, and
the result of the examination was, that it.sUffered
-by degrees in equal proportion as the foreign mar-
ket was choked up. All those'plaCes in Ireland
which were in the habit of .supplying America
With British manufactures, and particularly Shef-
field, alSo suffered in proportion, the commodi-
ties being throWn back tivon the market.; the
Wealth of the people being diminished, and 'con-
sequently they ,cannot afford to buy. There was
another observation which applied to this part of
the subject, and that was this,: .a great part of the

trade Vent tiof tegillar and tvholes6nie ; and in a
national point of view, therefore not Itierattiveeto
this Country. What Vas this' owing to ?
to the cembilled operations of the taxes laid on the
people by this House, and to the prosecution
the war. in order to slieei that the trade coehl.
not be called regular, he had only t 6
in one branch of it, namely, the export of the
manufacturers of Birmingham, Which annually.
'sent about 2,400,0001. value, half of that suni
was exported to America, the-other half was for
home consumption. Of the latter half, upwards.
of 700,0001, was .for ,small guns for the sappy of
our armies in the Peninsula. He was not prepareat
to say how much was to he set down for iwords)
pistols, &c. He was disposed to admit, that aS
„ far as it went, it was 'certainly a relief to Bira
mingham, but was not beneficial to the Tegulei
consumer. lie rejoiced even at,this relief, boi
he should have rejoiced more if that relief had.
been :afforded so as to contribute to the benefit of
the industry of the land. The same partial benefit'
Might be said to Jnive been experienced at Led lei
Wakefield, andllalifaxe by the clothiers, for 'ouf
armies are supplied with clothing from that
trict, and 5 or 600,000 men were not clothed at
a small expense. There Was another ,fact which
gave great satisfaction to the Viee President
about a year site,e. The manufacturers of Leeds
then received yelief in_ consequence of the ladies
having adopted the practice of wearing cloth pe:-
lisses.. But this relief; grateful as it was to the .
people or Leeds, was afforded' at the expertise of
the Spital-fields weavers. At that time the Right
Hon. Gentleman boasted'of the. relief as a source
of great exultation, being ready to catch at any
thing which egave the least appearance of a fillip
to trade, and that could by any Meads dovetail
into his' favourite. system. Untbrtunately, down
came the weavers Complaining that their distress
was beyond description ; aod that th is relief ofLeeds
was at their expellee. Such w, v the case before
the House, and all- that regained for the. other
side to do was, to afford some relief in the pre-,
sent exigency of the country, by rescinding the:
Orde'rs in Connell. 'When appeals were made its
this House for the necessity of supporting the ho-
_ nonr and dignity of the country, there was no
man could listen, more readily to those appeals.'
than himself ; but when the House was told that-
the whole of the trade of.the country was thrown,
into channels- of an uncertain' and suspicious de-
scription, it surely was then -tide to set about
remedying the error. Instead, of so doing,
the House was told, that the maritime rights
of the nation must- be upheld--that thosq'
rights were necessary, and that the honour and
dignity of the Crown was paramount to all other
considerations.•. With respect to those rights, no
man was so ready to uphold them as himself, if.
they .were really essential to the comfort of the
people -of this country. But it was necessary,
for the sake of those who thought differently onthe question, that he should step aside from the
detail to notice this part of the subject. if it was
proved that these maritime rights were incompa.
tible with the existence of the trade of the comm•
try, then he wss prepared to contend that the. con'.
tinuation of the system was not necessary; but if
he viewed the subject in a different point, Us: shetil
be the last man.iu the House to recommend the
abandonment of the system.. lie viewed: t'iie
merce of the country in a different lint, rye
thought the extinction of the system was pertly:t
compatible with the preservation of the ~-91:
Inerce;. that in fact it was necessity to its salva-
tion, and therefore he saw.nothuig in the 'surren-
der of, the Orders in Council which could be cee-
strued into an abandonment of the, maritime rietus
of the nation: In the case of the Martinique
blockade, he, admitted that the Lords of ael,
Council were Of a different opinion : they tiro:'
the position which he now, advanced; b4t -I,;:kit-
ting, for the sake of argument, that ell Vie wc,Zut
was blockaded, would it be contended,, he asked,
that the mere abstaining from the e,xi ,e or ele
right, wasa proof of the abandmptiegt ;Jf it -
Not one of our maritime rihts had beet -
cloned in any degree, from the stipulatiens
the Treaty of Utseeht, down to the rule of Iver
laid down in 1756;. from ,which rule sprung up
/he. Orders in Council.. In Doctors' Com-
, mons it was given
.up as' a principle, that nen.- .
tral ships made neutral goods. Sic J. Alarrott
utterely abandoned that doctrine, and he believed.
his Hon. and Learned Friend (2.4..Srephens) the
author of that famous book published in IS-oi,
Under the title of " War in Disguise," would not -
contend that the right formedpart-tof our national
code ; the' illtistribus Statesmhn, Mr. Fox, seas of
the smile opinion.. The argument' which he meant
to employ on' the occasion,, was Vic necessite of
giving up or waving for 'a tine the operation of
the Orders ; and that it might be done with all
the solemnities which were requisite; the Civilians
might, in their protest, usher to the world in this
strongest language possible, the , necessity for
exercising the just rights of the -nation ; they
might even say that the country was ready to die
in 'defence of those rights, but the right must not
be persevered hafor sonic time ; the right was no
right ht his opinion, if the Coa itiy was ohligesi
always to exercise it. The Honourable and
Learned Gentleman then reverted to the main
question, namely, the sacefice of the commerce
of the country at the feet of the Orders in Coun'
cii. The commerce thus lost, was the 'whole of the.
trade to the United States, which market 'cre-
ated:a demand for the mantifactures to. the amount
of thirteen millions sterling annually, a market of
the greatest certainty 'and regularity, not a mar,
ket of experiment, like that of toe Vice-President
of the Board of Trade, wherethe unfortunate
trader was sure of, meeting a loss of iifty pee cent.
urn the commodities he sent out. The In2eri-
ean market had not the chara.steristic feature of
Right Hon,- Gentleman's, fOr the demand for
goods was increasing until lately, it had been
eight millions ; it
.was Si) Incri&tscd to thirteen,
millions, and in a few' years, if permitted to go
on, would bid fair to arrive at twenty millions s.
, the return trade. was also as good es any chancel
the witnesses examiucd at the bar concurred in
that opinion, represeuting it as beneficial as the
trade to Holland,• his any other of,the ports. , In ,
1806, one of the arlumelqs_used against the trade
was this : that all the money was placed. in a state
of jeopardy—that argument, .hoe ever, could not
apply; for a balance since then hait bees strackr'

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