The Sun.
London, England, 1841-08-25 00:00:00

EVKN-ING SUN

benches 'he en tnentionril the China debate.) What had been
the case in that debate • ? He had; not the honour of a
lt
scat
in tie Must • at that time ; but he thought
Parliament ha 'd aPPr owed of much of the proceedings ad'rCad utpioan
that question. Pow in his (Mr. Roebuck's) opir,i;ii,that
war s;sould have. er died u the indignation of every honest
Cheers.) And if he hail found on the opposite side
a fierce relanke
;the entire proeeeding, and a determination
p
to give up thas'aPr Of +erty, so justly condemned, he should have
said that they would have been really entitled to
national gratitude • An allusion had been made to
the state of our relations with America, and the. conduct
of the American G wernment had been censured Now he
(Mr. Roebuck) was prepared to justify the American Govern-
ment in the whole oft heir proceedings from beginning to end.
--(Hear and laughter) What he regretted was, that. the
position of 11FL cod was such, that accordin gto the lawS Of the
United Staten, and after' the course pursued by the British
.c
Minister, they mild not reach, the evil. The House Would
permit him to en slain why he stated that . He believed that
much roisconcept ton existed upon the sub jest. Let him first
state the facts of Ihe case. A party. of aur troops and their
commander crease d the frontier, seized a boat, and killed a
certain number ca American etibjcels. S nnc time aftea one
of the pea sons supp osed to have been engaged in the Proceed-
ing was are-ested because lie had left Upper Canada, there he
had been an Under-Sheriff, where lie had -got in debt through
facilities afforded biro by his office. He passed over to New' York,
and there was .arreste el and committed for traal. A true bill was
found by the gaand jury. and IlPLeoit had to take his trial.
The House should hoot that there were two Courts in Ame-
rica—the Feder •al C.ourt, which belonge d to the other States,
and the State :7mo rt, which belonged: to the State of New
York. The Fedetati Court could not,, by common law, take
cognizance of murder ; everything of which they take cogni-
zance seas by statute-.law, and they • could have cognizance of
murder in those cases only in whh :ti it had been co.ninnted
within the peculiar did, nets assign id to them ; but in, the
State of New York, as a , `Mate, they
.had no jurisdiction what-
ever, the entire jurisdictia 'n being in the hands of the. State
Court. The peculiar result of that s'. stem was, that the. power
of pardoning a person found guilty it r the State Court, lay in
the Government of the Stat e, ira dependently of :any other
power, while a person convicted lay the Federal Court idebt
be pardoned by the:President, whose jurisdiction resaelied
Mr. Forsyth, in ins answer to D tr. Fox, stated that the
Government could not reach the case 'of j‘l`L'e`l;
and that it was entirely an tire ',sands. of the
authorities at New York. Thal mi ht be a deticieneY,
in the legislative system of the United ; States, but they cork!
not now remedy the evil. A similar • case might have occurred
some years. ago in New York. A woman might object to
the
!n
appeal in favour of the murderer caf her husband; and
King could not afterwards interfere fee the purpose of par-
doning the prisoner. Now, let thes uppose that in Prince
Le esk uis Napon's late attempt at Bo silo eaa.
e be hail been ac-
companied try an English citizen, an d that citizen had been
murdered, whale the persons who hard killed him had been
taken up, if the widow objected to the it pirdon, they would
have had a case under the former Engt: i h law precisely similar
to the case of M‘Lcod. He (Mr. Roeb a ick) did not think that
Mr. Fox had bee's aware of the re a 1 state of the ease'
or that he had properly dealt a th it in the first
instance. The naan might now be fount guilty,
and might suffer capitol punishment. ar. he NIAC: had thns be-
come one of great diffic !silty ; but the au ashorities of the United
States would take no csatirse but that wl rich they had followed.
For his (Mr. Roebuck's) part, he coup I not but admire the
decision of the America u Judges upon t he subject. The Judges
said that with political c axpedients the y had nothing to do;
their only business was to administer the law. Extriuste elf;
cumstances were brought fo,-ward by counsel in favouatif the
prisoner, to the effect that L'e was acting under the direct
m
orders of a superior officer, . d that -those orders had 'be
es
en
sanctionedand adopted by the 3r itish 'Car ivernment. The
said that of that circumstance they In al no cognizance', they
might be pleaded elsewhere, but they could not be pleaded t° a
habeas corpus. But besides the twa countries, not being in
state of war, and both deprecatini seas r, England could no were
justify that murder by her orders, ti. 'an she could any other crime'
Such was the state of the case bet, vei 'n this country and Ame-
rica, as regarded APLeod; and he ,r,.11 Ir. Roebuck) w0n41,1,°„;
treat of Hon. Members to speak ot it with the cantles to
".-st
it deserved. To return from that gression he would „put it
to Hon. Gentlemen opposite whether - there had' been ailythied
in their conduct upon that or any otter question which won'
justify them in bringing any accuse tion against .the Goiern's
ment for the policy they had pu, arm& They had never
pointed out a better course ; and tl ley had never done idany-
thing to smooth the difficulty we we iro placed:in. Heleh%d
ask any one to put his finger upon an: r singleth rig whiirbid
been done by the Right Hon. Barone it opposite, or any Id'
,a_
party, which could justify them in cast sing any censure upon
one
foreign policy of the present Admini ttration.
f here
content!
topic upon which he would not dilat. : but he would h
ar-
himself with observing that Canada a as a blot upou bott. pt. 0
ties.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") T. liey had acted wilt b
that
most un-heard of injustice to a ye ry large elasi
-
di
country, while they had already • ennobled an tt
dual for his services in carrying out . their views.—( aiv
_a
They had given him his reward befi he believed, it ,"!.:
been earned. They had been succe: n ful, no doubt, but his
tory would show whether they had not 'been guilty
.of
and whether they had not committed a v act of gnevous
folly
Divide et imperu, was the rule ; they : hal united, but he DT.,
lieved they had not strengthened. He p •as sure the time woo
a"d`
come when they would one day repent of the course they .1_
taken. They were now bound, hand a .nd foot, to the united
ile
Legislature ; ,and whoever may heres ifter be placed int° st t
Colonial-office, he would find himself powerless before that
Parliament. In discussing the foreign policy of the Govern-
ment, he should observe, that he did a iet think the Itlinist27
could be reproached with driving the 4 :ountry into war. '
thought that they had acted honourably? and ably for the Peng,
they had professed. They had been lay proached with a vranctoe_
economy ; but such a reproach could in ot properly came
the party opposite, who had constantly complained of every,fve
tempt at economv. He had now t' ame with the respects
merits of parties. Ile found Hon. Gent a emen opposite ionstantly
op-
rejecting every attempt at impros re ment, steadfastly
posing everything but the narrow inter reots of party. ale foundt
them new in a majority in that ,• and and the people of
England had to wait the eensequen cos of the change of 00-
nion, to which he believed they ha d come too precipitate's'.
(The Hon. a'arentletuan who had, throughout. his speech,
spoken in a vc'ny indistinct tone, cosieludect amidst the cheers
of the Ministerial party. )
Mr. MUNTZ ,(who rose amidst loud cries of 'l' Divide
divide," and could not obtain a hearing for a considerable
time) said, that it lras not his intention to take part in the
debate, but that his tome had been very flippantly used all over
the conntry during the late elections.—(Laughter.) Indeed,
he did not know what some gentlemen would have done,
if they had not had him to talk about.—(Laughter.) He
could scarcely take up a newspaper, whilst die elections were
going on, without finding- that some gentleman ea other had
said that " Even Mr. Mun tz, the. Radical Member for Birming:,
ham, says That the repeal of the Corn-laws would lower wages.
Now Gentlemen should tell the whole truth when they went
about it. He did say that one of the effects of the repeal
would be to lower wages ; but he did not the less sat'
that the Corn-laws were am evil, and ought to be
repealed. What he said was, that the whole state of the coun-
try ought to be looked to, and that it would not be sufficient to
repeal the Corn-laws without revising the currency. Who-
ever might be in power, the present Ministers or the party of
the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, the'.whole subject ought to
be gone into, and no person should be allowed to live at the
expense of another.
Mr. EWART also rose amidst laud cries of "Divide,
divide," which prevented his being heard for some time. lie
thought he should best consult the feelings of the House by
moving that the debate be now adjourned.--( Loud cries of " G°
on, go on.") He must appeal to the good feeling of the oppo.:
site side, and remind Gentlemen that there was a strong feet
ing on that (the Ministerial side) that this debate might net !),e,
hastily brought to a conclusion.—( Cries of "Go on, X° or!'
Gentlemen opposite were conscious of the power which they
had contrived to obtain, through the defective state of the con-
stituencies, and not by the voice of the people. —( Cheers fro
the Ministerial benches, and derisive cheers from the Opp
sition.) He would conclude by simply :towing that the debate
be now adjourned.—( Great confusion. )
Dr. BO WRING seconded the motion.
Strangers were ordered to withdraw, but the House did not
divide
On our re-admission to the gallery, we found
said the
Mr. BROTHERTON, addressing the House,
Speaker had been on his legs nine hours, arid that ought to be
_ many
a reason for adjournment. Besides, the representativeso f
large constituencies were expected to speak on this question,
ree
and an adjournment ought to take place. He did not ag
with an Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite, that adjourned
debates were useless. On the contrary, lie thought that they
were very popu'ar with the country. hours
Sir IL PEEL thought that the Speaker's having been nine ~,he
in the Chair, was a sufficient reason for the adjournment.
case was a special one, and could not well be drawn into s
precedent.
Lord J. RUSSELL thought that, under the circumstances,
and in the present state of the House, when there •was nolike-
lihood of a division, there would be no objection to an Immo;
diate adjournment. He did not agree with an Hon. and
Learned Gentleman opposite, that adjourned debates
were an evil. But there was an evil sometimes
attending them, for which the Ho use might find
a remedy, namely, that in the early part of the
evening on an adjourned debate, very fe w Members came
down, and the discussion did not really comntence until a late
hoar.—(Heir, hear.)
The motion was then agreed to, and the Hoalso ournc ,
shortly before Twelve o'Clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS. Aug. 21.
per;'s health
Parliament was this day. Opened. by Commission, with
the usual formalities. It having been generilly i"'
for some days past, that the state of her Maj
would not permit her to open Parliament in on, the
proeeedings attracted comparatively little interest. As
early as twelve o'clock, a considerable CrOwd had col-
early
in the neighbourhood of the two
Houses ; and_
when the galleries were opened at half-past`one, them
las
sevete)srtsral m
.
Among i
was a pretty fair sprinkling of ladies on ,the back
benches. The scene was by no means so brilliant as on
the occasions when her Majesty, came down in state.
Most of the ladies wore bonnets; and with the excep-
Capb, w
tion of the Commissioners, who wore their state robes,
co
allthe
the
ngratulated
Peers
peraeisieiteisttwerreriivnal by plainv dress. s
of theell eerho
P
was warmly s..
Their Roxal lghnesses the Dukes of Sussex and Cam
b: idge arrived shortly before two o'clock The'
S,:sscx: shook
hands very cordially with. •
Duke of
At two o'clock the Lords Commissioners' Lord Campbell.
House. At this time there were il entered the
prayers having been read by the a. out 60 Peers present.
The Usher of the Black Hod Bishop of WencEsrEn,
the House of Commons, .
I was directed to summon
Speaker and a
large body of -
Bar. Members appeared at the

The LORD CHANCELLOR then read her Majesty's
Speech, for which see Comuton3
The Lords Commissionce3 LOrd Chancellor,
the Earl of Clarendon, the Marquis of Normanby,
Viscount Melbourne, and Viscount Dtmcannon.
The Commons having retired, the swearing in of
Peers was then proceeded with.
There was a considerable crowd assembled in Palace-
yard to witness the arrival of the Peers, but there 'S
no demonstration of approval or disapproval manifested•
except towards the Marquis of Normanby, who 1'513
loudly cheered.

The LORD CHANCELLOR' resumed his seat on the
Woolsack a few minutes after Five o'Clock, and imme-
diately proceeded to read her Majest's Speech.
The Speech having been again read by the Chfc at
the Table,
Earl SPENCER, rose to move the Address, but spoke
in so low a tone as to 'render it almost unintelligible
in the gallery. The Noble Earl was understood to- sal
that, in his opinion, the best mode in which a person
standing in his situation could perform his duty on or-
dinary occasions was to avoid, as much as possible, all
topics calculated to intercept the harmony of sentiment,
so desirable on those occasions. But the prvsent was
not an ordinary occasion. The questions which her Ma-
jesty had directed the Lords Commissioners to sub"

7-EVENING SUN

mit -to--their Lordships' consideration, were ques-
tions some of them • involving the best interests
of the country—interests, many of them of such
immense importance to the future prosperity and
stability of the country, that he feared it would be neces-
sary for him, in addressing the House on that occasion,
to enter more into detail • and argument on those
occasions, than he " Would otherwise have done.
He would, however, endeavour se' to discharge his
duty as to lay himself open to as little objection as pos-
sible.'• There were Many topics in the Speech which he
was quite sure would meet with the concurrence of their
LordshipS. He was quite sure he should meet with
concurrence in expressing • the satisfaction they
must • all . feel at the friendly . communications
her, Majesty had received from foreign Powers.
He was sure they would all express their satis-
faction at hearing that a state of peace was preserved
in Europe. Iliewas sorry that they could not also con-
gratulate her Majesty on the favourable termination of the
warlike measures we had adopted for our defence in China.
That was certainly a point of great difficulty, and one re-
specting which be was sure their Lordships would unite
in the feelings of regret expressed by her Majesty. With
respect to other. topics ; respecting the mediation
of tier Majesty between Spain and Portugal, he was
- :sure, also, of the-unanimous expression of their satisfac-
flow: With respect to the debt of Canada, it was al-
; hided to in such a manner as to be, he apprehended,
a subject more proper to be brought forward
originally in the. other House.; but lie was sure they
*mild concur with her Majesty's recommendation to
contribute as far as was consistent with the interests of
-this country to complete the union that had taken
place between. the two countries.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
On this subject he could not avoid expressing
his gratification at the ability his Noble Friend the
Governor-General, had shown in the conduct of his
govertiment.—(Cheers.) It was impossible for him
(Lord Spencer), intimately as he had been acquainted
with the Noble Lord, not to feel deeply upon this subject.
The next topic to which he wished to call their attention,
was the effect of the treaty of July. The object of that
treaty had been fully attained without involving us
in an European war. He confessed that when he
was made aware that this country had concluded a
treaty to which France was no party—a treaty which
involved the necessity of employing force—he con-
fessed that he feared it could never be carried out
without leading us and Europe into war, one of the
greatest calamities which could be inflicted upon the
world. He did feel great regret when he found that the
treaty had been entered into, and that France was ex-
cluded from it—he regretted that his Noble. Friend the
Secretary for Foreign Affairs had abandoned that line
of policy; which, during his administration of
that offiee, had secured the peace of Europe and of the
world. But he must confess that although he did feel
that regret, he did not . do so now. When he read the
candid avowal of M. Thiers—(Cheers)—of his motives,
and when he considered the weakness, much greater
than he had imagined, of the Pacha of Egypt—
• when he considered the whole course of events, he
eonfi that he had been mistaken—(cheers)—and
that, the GovernMent had taken the proper and only
Conrse:.pecessary for the best interests of the country.
(Cheers.) He was perfectly ready to avow that he had
been mistaken in his views.. He was most happy that
we were now again connected with France in amity, and
• were acting with her in our system of European policy.
He thought it was the greatest object for the preserva-
tion of the peace of Europe, for the best interests of
both countries that France and England should be
united in the closest amity—(Cheers)—in all negocia-
tions wherever it was found to be possible ; it was of
the utmost importance that we should endeavour
to keep on friendly terms with each other,
and so really and truly maintain the peace of
Europe. His firm opinion was that so long as they were
united there would be no fear of an European war.—
(Cheers.) War he looked upon as one of the greatest of
calamities. lie did not fear it, for he believed that this
country was as prepared for.war as ever ; but he con-
sidered war not only as a great calamity, but unless it
could be most fully justified he considered it as one of the
greatest of crimes.—(Cheers.) He would repeat that he
fully believed that this country was not unprepared for
war—on the contrary, the state of the country was such,
that if the necessity for war should unhappily arise, the
state of our resources was such that we could enter upon it
quite as well, if not in better, circumstances than formerly.
It was true that the debt of the country was greatly in-
creased—it was true that their engagements with the
public creditor were much greater than when they com-
menced the last war ; but he was sure that, look-
ing at the state of the country and the resources
that were at their command —comparing the
present wealth and strength of the country with
what it was in 1792—he believed he was
justified in saying that the wealth of the country had
increased much more in proportion than the amount of
the debt, and he did not apprehend that they had any
reason to fear a war. But, as he had said before, war
was a great crime for any country to be guilty of engag-
ing in, and therefore it was with the greatest satisfaction he
was'enabled to congratulate them that they were again
united in friendly relations with France, and that the
peace of Europe was likely to be preserved.—(Hear,
hear.) As lie had before said, he believed that the
wealth and resources of the country had increased in a
greater proportion than the amount of the debt, but, in
order to give that wealth its true effect—(Hear, hear)—
in order that that wealth might tell, as it ought to tell,
upon' the prosperity of the people, and in order
that it might tell, as it ought to tell,.
on the burdens • that were imposed - upon
the people—it was necessary that they should take fully
and calmly into consideration the mode in which these
taxes were imposed—(Hear, hear)—so that they might,
if possible, make them press with less severity upon the
• people. With regard to that question it was rather a diffi-
cult topic to deal with, and one not very agreeable to any
assembly, and to their Lordships it could not be more
agreeable than any other—namely, a discussion of the
general principles of taxation and commerce. But it
was the duty of the Legislature to look at these ques-
tions, in managing the affairs of that great country—
,. it was their duty to look at them fairly and
steadily, and to see what were the principles
• upon which the commercial prosperity of the
country could be best founded, and to consider whether
• these principles were carried out by the mode in which
the taxation of the country was at present imposed.
Their taxation was at present upon the principle of re-
striction. They had undoubtedly, of late years, to a
certain degree, relieved the country from those restric-
tions ; but they had yet a great deal to do before they
Were justified in saying that the taxation of the country,
and the mode in which it was levied, was based upon the
principles of commercial prosperity--(Cheers.) He believed
- no one objected to what were called the general principles
of commercial prosperity. They were founded on argu-
ments so clear and convincing, that it was impossible for
any one to resist them. Every one was agreed that
the best course to pursue was to give commerce its
free course—not to interfere with the distribution
of capital, but allow every man to apply his resources
in the manner he thought most advantageous.—(Cheers.)
This principle had been proved to be the best mode in
which the resources of the country could be supplied
It had generally been admitted in arguing this
question that general principles were best, but
he had found that particular interests required
particular principles to be applied. He had had the
honour of being a member of the Committee on Fo-
reign Commerce, and in that Committee, although
:v. all agreed that general principles were best, yet
he had continually to contend with different
• sections of the Committee on different subjects.
It was admitted that general principles were good, but
England, it was said, was so situated that they could not
be generally applied.—(Hear, hear.) Now what, he
would ask, was the situation of England. It was
true it was peculiar in having to pay to the
' public creditor a • great amount ; it was peculiar also in
having to pay a large amount of taxes. There was also
other peculiarities, but those that he had referred to
were the great ones.--(llear, hear.) It was said that
England was so situated that it was impossible
to compete with foreign countries without protection. If
such was the case, was it not, he would ask, most
desirable that the burthen of the people should be
.lightened.—(Hear, hear, hear.) That might be
done better by redeeming the annuity which the
country had to pay, or to increase the commerce
of the country. Such being the case the Go-
vernment, under the hope of increasing the wealth
,of the country, and thereby enable it to pay the
public creditor with greater ease, had brought
forward in the, last Session certain measures : and for
his own part he felt bound to say that the veil- amount
of the debt added to the importance of adopting such
measures as would increase the means of the country to pay
the public creditors.—(Hear, hear.) The country- was
now in a situation in which it ought to endeavour as
fist as it could to apply the true principles of free trade.
With that view her Majesty had directed the Lords
Commissoners to call the attention of the House of
Parliament to the subject. In the course of the last session
her Majesty's Ministers had brought forward seve-
ral measures for the purpose of taking of the restrictions
• on trade, among them was a new arrangement
of the Timber Duties. The law with respect
- to that subject, caused parties in the country- to use the
worst of timber, &e., may,
notwithstanding it had been
found even politic to take timber across the Atlantic,
fling it back again.--(Cheers.) Was not such a state of .
the law absurd ?—(Hear, hear.) Now the measure
which had been brought forward by her Majesty's
GoV-ernment would, if carried, have the ef-
fect of.
,giving to the people of England the
power of selecting timber of the best description
at a reasonable price.(Hear, hear.) Another measure
that had been brought forward in the last .session was
with respect to the Sugar Duties, and the same obser-
vations: that applied to the Timber Duties applied
equally, to the Sugar Duties. The effect of the
Present. Sugar Duties was to increase greatly the ex-
penses of the middle and lower classes, and thereby it in-
jured the revenue. But it was said if the present restric-
tion on the introduction of certain sugar was taken off
it would have the effect of interfering with that noble
• measure which was an honour to this country—he al-
luded to the abolition of the slave-trade. Now, for his
own part, he believed it would have no such effect, and
if he thought it would he would be the last person to
advocate it. That great measure had done much good ;
nut it could. never be carried fully into effect until
• the country succeeded in getting other countries to follow
its example.—(Hear, hear.) In short, . until . slavery
' • was extinguished over the whole world.—(Hear, hear.)
• They must remember that whenever there was a compe-
tition between• free labour and slave labour, free labour
always had the advantage. The next question was that
recommended to their attention specifically in the
lie speech from the Throne, namely the state of the laws
Onsiresgelating the importation of corn. On this subject
~ the most extravagant opinions had been entertained.
el/The statements on both sides were many of them incon-
.ceirable ard impossible. He believed them to be complete
and entire exaggerationa.—(llear, hear.) If he could
believe either of them on the one side or the other, al-

• though•heahad-long been a decided advocate -for-the-re-
peal of
.those laws, he certainly should pause be-
fore he could consent to it.—(Hear, hear.),
Depending, 'as he (lid, entirely 311 the produce
of the land, and having been always closely con-
nected with those interested in its produce, he might be
biassed in his opinions, but he should say that if any-
thing like what was alleged by those who promoted
the repeal • of these laws, or by. those who opposed
it could take place, namely, that the price of corn would
so fall as to throw thousands of acres out of cultivation
—he said that in his opinion nothing could be more disad-
vantageous to the country.—(Hear, hear, hear.) But
he was perfectly satisfied that the Corn-laws were no
protection to the agriculturist.—(Cheers and counter-
cheering.) He did not believe that by the abolition of the
Corn-laws the price of corn would be materially altered
in this country. He believed there could be no doubt—
indeed it was a mere question of common sense—that no
article could be materially reduced in price, unless in
the course of years the price of cost was greater than
that of produce. Therefore, whatever might be the
most expensive mode of cultivation necessary to supply
the wants of the people it must be at a price that would
regulate the price of corn. The price in this country
depended on the expense of cultivation of the land, on
the cost of production. When it was said that the re-
peal of the Corn laws would throw land out of culti-
vation, it was forgotten that the worst • land, if
thrown out of cultivation, because a barren waste. If,
therefore, from any change, it was found less profitable
to grow wheat, the first land that went out of cultiva-
tion was anything but corn land.—(hear, hear.) He
thought it utterly impossible that the price of corn
should be diminished in any material degree by the pro-
posed
alterations in the existing laws.—(llear,
During the period which the Corn-laws had existed we
had imported no less than 11,300,000 quarters of foreign
corn, and only 1,300,000 of the whole quantity had been
introduced when the duty was above 13s. Bd., that was
to say, when the price of wheat in this country was
above 695. Their Lordships would see by that calcula-
tion that from 1815 up to the present time it had never
been worth the while • of the foreigner to import corn,
unless he was enabled to obtain at least 565. for it free of
the duty. These were facts which could not be disputed by
any one, although some of their Lordships might
contend that they did not contradict any of
their favourite theories. But another case was
often stated. It was often said that in the
Channel Islands, the average price of corn did not ex-
ceed 41s. No doubt. the fact was so, but they would
find that whenever the ports in this country were open
the prices in those islands immediately rose, and, when they
shut they as immediately fell. Their trade and prices
depended on this' country, and he (Earl Spencer) did not
believe it was possible that any large quantity of corn
could be introduced at any materially reduced price.
More corn would undoubtedly be grown, but their Lord-
ships need be under no apprehension of the result. He
felt painfully sensible that his arguments would have but
little weight with the majority of their Lordships. He,
however, had someconsolation in the fact, that during the
greater part of his life he had been one of a minority ;
but he had always seen that those measures which had
been most strenuously urged by him and his friends had
been Successful.—(Hear, hear.) He felt confident that
the question of an alteration in the Corn-laws and free-
dom of trade would yet, and soon, be triumPhant.—
(Cheers.) It might be asked of him what great advan-
tages he expected from an alteration in the Corn-laws,
when he did not expect any great reduction in the price?
The advantages he contemplated were to be obtained by
raising the price of corn on the Continent.—(Hear,
hear.) He wished to see the price raised there, in order
that their manufacturers might not be able to compete
with ours, with such advantages as they now possessed,
and that they might not be induced to turn
their attention so
.exclusively to manufactures. In his
opinion the opening of the trade upon a fixed basis would
prove of the utmost advantage to all the interests of this
country ; it would increase the prosperity of our
manufactures and, consequently, although indirectly,
increase the prosperity of the agricultural interest, for
in a very great degree they did and must depend upon
each other.—(Hear,. hear.) But the plan proposed by
the Government would directly benefit the agricultural
interest, for what had the Corn-laws done ? They
,might prevent prices from falling a little when they
were high, but when they were low, the effect was to
depress them still further.---(Hear, hear.) Since
1815 there had been no such thing known as any
large speculation in English corn. From the uncertainty
of the present laws all speculations were confined tp.
corn of a foreign growth. If these laws were abolishao,.
and the prices on the Continent. were brought upon
something like an equality with those in England specu-
lations would go on in English corn as well as in
foreign, and that would tend very, greatly
to relieve the farmer in depressed years.
He only hoped that if they did not approve of these doc-
trines at least they would remove them ; and he spoke as
a landed proprietor, and as one interested in the cultiva-
tion of the soil. He hoped they-would relieve them from
the unmitigated evil of the Corn-laws.—(Hear.) The
law, as it at present stood, by its sudden changes, threw
out such temptations to fraud and to forcing up the
markets of our country that it was become a serious
evil, and he might add hardly bearable. These measures,
lie felt confident, would ultimately be carried, but he con-
fessed he feared that before the country was impressed with
the truth of these principles the sufferings of the people
would be fearful. The people were at present in a state of
suffering, and that the carrying of the present question
would be ultimately beneficial to them and to all parties,'
lie had not the slightest doubt. (Hear, hear.) He was
sure they would prevent the recurrence of.many evils
engendered by the late contests in the political world,
and that could only be effected by a just and good Go-
vernment, and by concessions on both sides. But if these
measures were delayed too long—if they delayed to give that
freedom to the commerce of the country which would
enable the persons engaged in it to give employment
and to circulate capital, the result would be
to drive that capital abroad, and the manufacturing
prosperity of the country would be destroyed.—(Loud
cheers.) He could hardly conceive anything more cala- •
mitous to that country than such an event.—(Loud
cheers.) When they considered the vast mass of their
population. and the artificial state of society in which
they lived—when they considered that such an event
must deprive vast numbers of employment--he could
hardly conceive anything more disastrous than such an
event.—(Loud cheers.) -He hoped and trusted that the
time was not far distant when these measures would be
carried, fur whenever the capital of the country
began to diminish it would go on increasing and
eventually put an end to the prosperity of the country.
He would regret extremely it' their Lordships and the
other House of Parliament should not agree to the re-
commendations 'contained in the Speech from the throne.
Her Majesty's Ministers must stand or fall in conse-
quence of the course which would be pursued on that
subject. 'lt had been his pleasure generally to concur
and act with them. When they came into power he had
felt the greatest confidence in them, and that confidence
had never been shaken. He trusted that he should
always be able to entertain the same confidence in them
that he had done hitherto. The Noble Lord concluded
by moving the Address.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said he could
assure their Lordships that he felt most deeply the
very difficult and disadvantageous position in
which he was placed in rising to second the Address,
and how much he needed the indulgence of the House.
His Noble Friend who had moved that Address had ad-
duced sufficient reasons for supporting the only parts
upon which any difference of opinion was likely to be
entertained ; ancl as whatever came from him must come
with weight, not only on account of his eloquence and
ability, but also on account of the important posi-
tion which he held in the country, as a Peer, as
a landed proprietor, and as a statesman—anything
which came from him (the Marquis of Clanricarde) on
the same subject must appear tedious to their Lord-
ships. Still, such was the importance of the topic con-
tained in the Address, that lie could not help stating some
of the principal reasons which induced him to give it his
cordial support. Upon a great part of the Address ho
apprehended that no difference of opinion was likely to
arise. NO one could deny that it was satisfactory to re-
ceive assurances of pacific inclinations from foreign
Powers. It must be gratifying to all that the
treaty which was in progress last year had now been
virtually ratified. The policy of that treaty had been
more than once discussed by, and had received the sanc-
tion of, •the late Parliament. lie need not, therefore,
detain their Lordships at any great length on that sub-
ject ; but it was satisfactory to know that the difficulties
which had occurred in the execution of the treaty had at
length been surmounted. It was an act of notoriety that
a treaty had been agreed upon between the Four Powers
and France in reference to the Dardanelles. The for-
' mil ratification of it, however, had not been received.
in the last Parliament.. It was now, for the first time,
formally announced that the separation of France from
the other Powers was completely at an end ; that the
dangerous and isolated position in which that country
had placed herself had at length been changed, and that
they might now reasonably hope that all those doubts,
jealousies, and anxieties, which had beg). excited Mahe
public mind would quickly subsides' Neither could any
difference of feeling exist as to the state of our relations
with Persia, the evacuation of Ghorian, and the
return of the Consul to Teheran.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
In relation to all these subjects there was the beat rea-
son to expect unanimity. But lie could not disguise from
himself that., in touching upon those other portions upon
which the Noble Lord had dilated with so much-effect,
the sentiments which lie would have to express would
differ from those of many of their Lordships,
and therefore it was the more necessary that
he should claim their indulgence.—(Hear, hear.)
These topics were unpleasant for him to approach, and
he did net know what arguments to select on a subject,
on which so much had been written and said by great
authorities who had fairly exhausted the subject. But
in maintaining his opinions on the subject, he hoped, if
he was not unbiassed, his bias would be found to be
on that side on which itmight be least expected. It was
usual for persons talking on these subjects to disclaim all
personal feelings, but he confessed that it egreatlydistrnsted
all such disclaimers. Yet, as one whose property and pros-
perity were involved in land, he implored their Lordships
to accede to the opinions expressed in the Address, and
to the' alteration in laws which, in his:opinion, did in-
juriously affect the landed interests.. He said the land-
owners had the greatest of all interest in an alteration
of these laws because they affected the prosperity of the
whole empire, and if there was one class more than
another deeply interested in the general prosperity and
wealth of the empire it was the landed interest.—(Hear.)
It was true that no portion of the country could profit
so directly by the increased wealth of the country as
the landed interest.—(Hear, heir.) They could set no
bounds to the expansion of the commercial interests of
the country, but the land could not increase. Expe-,
rience had shown that as the commercial class increased
in wealth a portion of their wealth was invested in land,
and therefore lend must increase in value in proportion
- to the increase of wealth in the-commercial class: But he
contended that the landed interest suffered directly

i from the operation of these laws. Under them there
I must be either regular business of a .steady, regur
• ' profit, or there must be fluctuations. • Now he would
• I venture to affirm that all reference to the experience of
the present law would show that in the fluctuations to
I which the trade in corn was more or less subject, the
1 profit had never gone to the British farmer ; while the
, loss, when there was loss, had fallen upon him.—(Hear,
I hear.) If their Lordships would refer to the tables re-
Iturned to Parliament, they would find that of wheat and
wheat flour the quantity imported since the passing of this
law was nearly thirteen millions of quarters. At the
same time the average price of corn had been from 565..
to 575. But their Lordships knew that this was not the
steady price of corn, for in 1834 the price of corn was
down to 355. to 365. per quarter. If, therefore, the farmer
was to gain, he ought to have gained on those prices, but
he (Lord Clanricarde) would show their Lordships that
the farmer did not gain by the high price, but lust
almost all by it. . He. found that in the year 1834 the
import of corn was only 11,000 quarters, and if they
would turn to 1839, they would find the quantity
entered for foreign consumption was 594 quarters.
But from the returns he found that, of nearly
fifteen millions of .quarters imported since these
laws had been in force, ten millions had been im-
ported at an average duty of 2s. 10111. Now this was
what they called the protection of the present law. It
was clear from the returns, that when in 1834 the price
was as low as he had stated, the British farmer sold all
his corn, but when it was at a high rate, foreign corn ,
came in on a sudden, the averages were worked up pur- 1
posely to let them in (but that was another considera-
tion), and when the people had been kept in want some
time, foreign corn came in, and was sold at a high price, •
while that of the British farmer was sold at a low price.
He said, therefore, that the British farmer sustained g-
loss, and that the protection at present was entirely ficti-
tious. But another view to be taken was that of supply.
If they wished to give the British farmer a monopoly to
supply the market with corn, they ought to see that the
market was supplied by the farmer, and that they
were able to derive a sufficient supply from home
to meet the wants of the people.—(Hear, hear.)
Now, it was notorious that the harvest of 1838 was a
deficient one, while that of 1834 was a most productive
one. It was clear that the harvest of 1834- did not pro-
duce more corn than the people wanted for their con-
sumption ; and, according to the calculations that had
been made, there was a deficiency of no less ' than five
millions of quarters in 1838. Now, such being the fact,
what was the inference to be drawn from it ?
Why, that there was not a sufficiency of
corn in the country at that time to feed
the people, and that consequently they were starving.
The fact was, that this country at the present moment
was dependant foi corn upon a foreign supply, and the
question was, whether they should still keep up the re-
strictive system, or by new laws enable the country
alwayS to have a sufficiency of wheat for its consump-
tion. But then it was said that the alteration of the
laws might have the effect of
,closing foreign ports.
against this country. _, He could not believe
that any such result would ensue. Among
the many evils of the present existing laws was the
derangement which they occasioned to the commerce of
the country, and he thought that it would be admitted by
all that the.sooner the cause of that derangement was re-
moved.. How were our manufactures to prosper if the
Corn-laws were to be maintained? He agreed with his
Noble Friend who preceded him, that even if the propo-
sitions of the Government were to be carried into effect,
the price of corn would not be lowered to such an extent
, as many feared; but still if our manufacturers had fair
play, by being allowed to trade in corn with the fo-
reigner, the markets for their productions would be very
greatly extended, for. the invariable answer of foreign
Governments, when asked to alter their tariffs, was,
" Look at the duty you place upon our staple commo-
dity." The consequence of these laws was, that foreign
countries drew from us our best mechanics and artisans.
They imported our skill and machinery in order to enable
them to make these goods for themselves, which they
Would be most happy to take from us ready made if they
were allowed to pay for them by their produce. It
might be said that might be done. • All the good might
be effected by altering, by lowering the sliding scale ;
but if they lowered it so far as to be of any use,
it would be a mere delusion practised upon
the farmer.—(Loud cheers.) He trusted their
Lordships would speak out fully and freely. The Ad-
'tress before their Lordships spoke frankly, freely, and
plainly—more so indeed than any document of a similar
nature which had ever come before their Lordships. Let
their Lordships imitate it, and if they were determined
not to agree to the principles it embodied, let them say
so boldly, and carry out their intentions by introducing
the word "not" in a few places.—(A laugh.) He called
upon their Lordships to take that course, because; in
watching the conduct of the leading men in the political
world, he thought that they had treated that most im-
portant question in i, very unbecoming manner, Such a
course would be unworthy of that House; therefore he
trusted their Lordships would speak out and tell the
people plainly what it was they intended to do. Some '
time ago many predicted that the House of Lords was
to be annihilated, and the aristocracy abolished ; he had
never participated in those fears, but he would say that if
men in high places practised such evasion upon the people,
they would give a greater blow to the aristocracy than
any which it had yet received. ' The party who sat op-
posite might say their conduct was well known, and
they would continue to give that protection to agricul-
ture which it required, kit ,that would mean absolutely
nothing. It became them, filling such - a high station, to
come &ward, and setting aside all subterfuge or evasion
to state plainly and without reserve what their intentions
were. He was most anxious that they would avoid
taking such a course of evasion as had lately been
pursued. Let them agree to the Address whether they
meant to alter the Corn-laws or not, and if Ministers
were to be turned out their Lordships might do so upon
a vote of confidence . immediately after.—(Laughter.)
All be wanted was, that that House should not equivo-
cate upon a matter so important ; •that they should
speak out openly and plainly, and not take a course
which would deceive the agriculturalist; yet at the same
time leave it open to them to see whether it would be
better for them to please the country or their party.s--
(Cheers.) If the Ministry were to be overthrown, he
was glad that it was to be upon so very important a
question. When he looked back at what they had done
within the last ten years—when he saw they had carried
a Reform which, twelve years ago would nave been
thought chimerical—when they had rendered a
return to the old borough system impossible—
when he saw the Municipal Corporations who had
much money in their power, and which it was proved
they had frequently spent in corruption, fully reformed—
when hesaw the manner in which the Tithe question
had been settled both in Ireland and England—when
he saw the Church in both countries put on a better
footing—when he recollected that the Ministry had ef-
fected all these and other great changes which had
been for the benefit of the country—he did feel that they
could not finish their Ministerial career in a more credit-
able or more fitting manner than b) fidling in a struggle
against an unnecessary, and therefore unjustifiable and
odious monopoly. Therefore it was that lie prayed
their Lordships to meet the question at once—to state,
if they could, their reasons against the opinions he had ut-
tered, and by freeing the energies of the people,
and enabling them to pay into the Treasury
a sufficient revenue in a manner that would not be bur-
densome, to avoid the necessity for further taxa- 1
tion.—(Hear, hear.) He wished their Lordships would
state their opinions and objections to these measures in
a manly, firm, creditable, and straightforward manner,
and not to leave the country in doubt as to their inten-
tions, if, unfortunately, they should reject the Address.
(Loud cheers.) '
The Earl of RIPON agreed in the opinions expressed
by the Noble Lords who had moved and seconded that '
there were matters in the Speech delivered by the Lords
Commissioners to which it was not at all likely their
Lordships would be at all disposed to object, and cer-
tainly he would have been prepared to follow the ex-
ample which of late years had been generally fol-
lowed, of acquiescing in the whole of the Address,
except in so far as any particular qualification or re-
servation of opinion might deem fitting. He confessed
he should rather have pursued that course at present
than take the course lie was about to take, of objecting
to certain portions of the Address, and submitting to
their Lordships an amendment upon this. The portions
to which his Noble Friend referred as likely to receive
the general concurrence of the House were those refer-
ring to the state of their foreign relations, and un-
doubtedly lie must say that lie had heard with great
satisfaction that these relations which happily fur many
years existed between France and other countries, more
especially England,had been restored t • ) the State, notwith-
standing the casual interruptions which had last year
taken place. They owed much of that to the prudence,
1 the discretion, and the judgment of his Majesty the King
of the French—(cheers)—they owed much to the en-
lightened Ministry by whom lie was surrounded, who
had by their discretion and just appreciation of the po-
Sidon) of France with regard to the rest of Europe put
an end for a time at least, and he hoped for a long time,
to those dangers upon which rasher counsels and less
scrupulous minds Would have risked the peace of Europe.
—(Cheers.) Therefore he was rejoiced to find that they
were relieved from any ground of apprehension on that
score, and he should be still more rejoiced if the actual
result of the arrangement for what was called the paci-
fication of the East should turn out to have had that
e&ct. But their Lordship's might find that after all
the Paella of Egypt was a meat powerful vassal, and the
Grand Seignor a most powerless Sovereign, and that the
integrity, and the maintenance of peace depended not
only upon him,. but essentially on the permanent inter-
position of the great Powers of Europe. It was not
permitted by them to say how long that state of things
might last. He was sure it was for the interest of all
parties that it should last, and lie believed that all the
Powers bound in that league had shown no disposition
to part from its provisions. He concurred also in think-
ing that it was a fortunate circumstance that the relations
with Persia appeared to be restored. His Noble Friend
seemed to intimate that some matter still remained to
be adjusted, and he hoped speedily this would be the
case. But he ' attached the more importance to the ,
settlement of that question, because it had a very great
bearing upon another matter 'connected with their his-
tory, with respect to Which, to his great surprise, the
Speech was entirely silent. He meant that extraordinary
i war which ‘‘,ls going on in Afghanestan, the
object and results of which were equally obscure.—
; (Hear, hear.) True, :there had been a certain flush of
success, and it was true • that British arms had placed
I upon the throne a miserable degraded puppet, totally
I unfit to administer the affairs of the country over which
1 lie ruled. A British arn-y was still maintained there
hundreds of miles from their own territory, in no
I small danger, and surrounded by partieS who looked
1 with jealousy upon the, puppet they, had placed
' upon the throne What was the state of the Punjaub ?
In consequence of a treaty which they had entered into
. with Shah Shoojt and their dearly-beloved ally Runjeet
Sing,„ they . shad made, war on that territory;
' they had incurred an enormous expense, which lie be-