The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-24 00:00:00

BILL.

Mr. S LIEIL presented petitions from Carrick-on-Suir
and ot'a er places ill the South of Ireland, in favour of the
r trodueed by Lord Morpetli, and against Lord
Stanlc :I!'s Bill.

Lo: CLEMENTS presented petitions from severe
places in Leitrim mith a similar pa:3er.
ADJOURNED DEBATE.

On the Order of the Day being real for resuming the
adjour tied debate on the Registrie.ion of Voters Bill (Ire-
land),
Mr. YOUNG rose, and said he wished to offer a few
observ, utions on the Bill introduced on that subject by the
N,
tible Lord (Lord Morpeth) opposite, with respect to
t. a ,ecusation which had been so often brought far
ward, of a settled enmity being entertained by
the pr sty amongst whom he stood, against the peace and
the li erty of Ireland. He would have hardly thought it
necess cry to take notice cf what had been stared in the
spree! t of the Noble Lord (Lord Alorpcth) last Light, if
he did not think the statements made in that speech were
more . 'suited to a discourse in some popular assembly than
to a fpeech from an Hon. Member to that liouse.
He cc received that the history of Ireland for the last hall
7 centut , was a sufficient answer to the chart
his
ges of
hostile ft to the Irish people brought agains
party. Since the 3 ear I 7SB, they had founded their
policy to wards that country on principles of kind-
ness sad conciliation. Link by link the chains
which L 0 ond the 'rich people had been struck ofr; and be
could n at now discover the least difference between the
conklitio a of the Irish Roman Catholizs and that of their
Protests ant countrymen. The statutes
passed c f late years had been introduced in part by lion.
Gentler' en on his side of the House, and the prosperity
of Irela 11 was showing the wisdom of their policy.
At the ; ii resent day he saw no diminution of that goad
will. Woe found it stated by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, the, Member for Tamworth, when introducing the
Catholic .Relief Bill, that lie preferrel carrying out its
details c,n principles of generous confidence rather than
attempting to impair the value of the concession by any
vexattou; restrictions. lie believed that that was still
the course which the party led by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man was q illtng to pursue. He remembered that it bad
been st:sten Iby the Right lion. Member for Pembroke ‘on
the C orporation 13i!1 that his party did not intend to
act on a ns rrow and exclusive policy towards Ireland ; sad
the Right Hon. Gentleman added that such an. attempt
could no more be carried into effect than the sun could go
back fror ' the dial. In that opinion (Mr. Y. ) fully coin-
cided. T lac Noble Lord (Lord Morp eth), however, in the

,MORNING EDITION':
_-‘i
course of his speech last night. complained o ache effects
which the Bill introduced by the Noble Lord (the Member
for Lancashire) would Lave on the int:re.ts of . he majo.
rity of the people of Ireland. The N le Lord
ksw
Stated that the Bill was full of snares and Angers
which the most,-• -Wreckless only would be illing '.
to encounter. If, however, it were true thaerte
Bill contlinel clauses of a restricted nature, those
clauses could be altered in Committee ; and for his own part
he would not give his vote for any clause Unit could tend
unduly to restrict the franchise or to throw vexatious oh-
stacks in the way of the claimant.--(Hear, hear.)
But the Bill of the Noble Lord opposite was not a BM
merely for the purpose of amending the tegistration, but
a Bill to alter the franchise by placing it on a basis mate-
rially lower, and one which he thought he should be able
to show was not calculated to benefit either the agricultural
or social improvement of Ireland—( Hear, hear, he-r)
—and one that, instead of conducing to the real
independence of the elector, was calculated to
injure it, and to prevent the electors from exercising
a proper control over their representatives.—( Hear.)
He zed hardly say a word on the qucstien of the valuatioa
which had been so fully discussed last night. That valua-
tion made by tue Noble Lord's own Commissioners had
not been made according to the provisions of the Peer-
law Act, and was, in fact, a fraud upon the lancllrrds.in
favour of the tenants; and instead of throwing overboard
such a vaLation, the Noble Lord brought it forward
as the foundation of his Bill for giving an ex-
tension to the franchise. He thought the Noble Lord
ought at least to have laid aside his Bill for a time, in
order to see bow that valuation would have worked. With

mg:ea to the question of the lowering of the franehi:e,
most gentlt•mea acquaiLted pith tl.e existing franchie in
Ireland would agree with him in st,ting that it would
require eight acre; of Irish ground, tie!' cultivatel, wits
a good house, to be held at a very I,m rent, or at no rent
at all, i❑ order to corder the franchise upon the holder, ac-
cording to the bencEial interest test which he should
throughout his argument assume to be the proper test for
the conferring of the franchise. Now eight Irish
acres were equal to twelve Erglish acres. According
to the Report of the valuator of me Lurgan union, ail the
hnd in that union was valued at 1/. SF. the English acre,
therefore the 6/ value would confer the franchise upon

the holder of four English acrd; thus in the union of
Lurgan the possession of one-third the land required at
present would confer the franchise, and in the county of
Lengfird tho v)..c.soiun would produce the
same effect. Ho thought that mint be udmitted to
be a great lowering of the franchise. —(Hear, hear.)
The e‘is of bribery were felt in the time of the 40:7. fi
holders, but he thougat that those evils would be magni-
fied by the provisions of the Noble Lord's Bill, for the
franchise proposed by that Bill was very little above the
40:. freeholders. With regard to the numbers likely
to be almitted under the franchise of the Noble
Lord, he found in that portion of the union of
Lurgan, which contained the county of Armagh, there
was 39,847 acrd, the whole county containing about
128,000, and in that county these were about
22,144 tenements which would qualify their occupiers
to have the franchi.e, while is th..t county the

persons employing labourers eil not exceed 17,000
Upon the point of what would best prornwe the social im-
provement of Ireland he begged leave to quote the opinion
of a man who was much respected even by Gentlemen on
the opposite side of the House, he alluded to Mr. Blake,
the Chief Remembrancer of It eland ; it was given fifteen
}ears ago, but he (Mr. Y.) had, he believed, good reason
to say that he retained the same opinion up to the present
time. The Ilor. Member then quoted Mr. Blake's opinion,
viz, by raising the franchise from 40s. to a 101. beneficial
occupation. That opinion was quoted with much appro-
la'ion by Lord Ilatbcrton when he, as Secretary for Ire-
land, brought in a Bill to regulate the franchise for that
country. Much had been said in favour of the Belgian
system ; but looking at all the recent writers upon the state
of that country, it was proved that they were in a wretched
condition ; that after severe and incessant labour, and pi ac-
tisine the most rigid economy, they were scarcely able to
keep their heads aeove water. Teat system might answer
in teat country, which was still in a state of transition, but
it would not do, anti ought not to be attempted to be (weed
upon a people like the liish, who lead borne their difficul-
ties and privations in a moat surprisingly peaecable manner.
They Fad recently adeed totiecio claims by a fresh title
to the symeathy aad good feeling of the people of Eng-
land. No count,y had shown more signal marks of
resolution of purpose and energy of character
than the people tf Ireland had in rescuing themselves
from the evils of iutoxicztion.—( Hear, hear.) He trueted
that the reformation might be as lasting as its benefits
were obvious and important.—( Hear.) It was desirable
that the constituencies should be sufficiently numerous,
that when some ; articular subject inflamed tee public mind
they should hate sufficient weight in neenters and respea-
tability to stem the torrent of popular violence —(llear,
hear.) In the scar 1784 it was the general feeling of
the justice and sound policy of his nit asutea that placed
Mr. Pitt in power. Oe another occasion of I it( r date in
their own turner, which it teas not very palatable to a
Conservative to refer to—lie meant the Reform
Bill—he conceived that it was the constituencies
who raised themselves in opposition to the aria-
teeracy, and thereby probably averted the riots and
bloodshed which would have ensued in the
event cf the measure having been rejected.
In Ireland there were other influences be..i.lee those of
sl landlord. Ile would not enter into the details
li,ieet....eeentle..,eaveteeeeeerete question, whether
clergy of Leland possessed was obtained by legitimate
metes, cr %tit; used for legitimate purposes ; but
this he would. say, that firmly tetached as he
was to the dcctrices of the Established Church—great
as was the respect he entertained for the
ministers of that Church,—yet not even in their hands
would he with to sec that vast amount of irresponsible pc-
litical power which was undoubtedly is ielded by the clergy-
:nen of the Catholic Church in Ireland. Now upon
those considerations, and wishing to do what was fair and
just, and locking to what was the present defective
state of it:far:nation on the subject of valuation, he felt
bound to oppose the precipitate measure now sought to
be introduced. \Vheil he looked to the amount of qualifi-
cation granted by the Biel of the Noble Lord
(Lord Morpcth) opposite, and when he saw in that
an index of the ideas of Government, he owned
Le felt apprehensions. It seemed to him that a
step was taken in an entirely wrong direction, and con-
Wary to the dictates of sound police, and opposed to those
anticipations entertained and held out to the country by
the statesmen who changed the 40s. freeholders t 3
101. freeholders. The measure of the Noble Lord would
destroy the political power of the country, by putting the
elective franchise in the hands of a second-rate and
lea; desirable class of persons. It would dime
nish the independence of the elector and in-
crease the expense of elections, and would perpe-
tuate that low and degraded state from which,
under the influence of happier circumstances, the
people of Ireland were steadily, though slowly, emerg-
ing. If the great charge so mysteriously pie-
pared—so suddenly brought before the public—if that
great change now proposed should be adopted
there would be no ratification so strong that would not be
considered most. easily changed on the slightest causes.
He would, therefore, oppose the measure now sought to bo
passed into law.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN then rose, but from the great
noise in the House, was inaudible in the gallery. We
understood the Honourable Member to be ad-
dressing himself more particularly to tho speech
of the Noble Lord, the Member for North Lan-
cashire (Lord Stanley). He thought the Noble
Lord had brought a very slender stock of argu-
ment to bear against the Bill. Tic Noble Lord
the Member for North Lancashire had reprcached
the Noble Lord near Lim with inconsistency,
while the Noble Lord himself was in many cases
More open to tee charge. The Noble Lord had
complained that a el. rent, and not a 5/. profit
was adopted as the test for the franchise in the Govern-
ment measure ; but the fact was that tire Poor-law valu-
ation in Ireland was so lox that if the profit test were
adopted under it the Irish constituences would be annihilated.
The Noble Lord had ended his address to tire House by
quotations and arguments, to show that though the indiapo-
sition of the landlords to grant leases to tenants was; one
cause of the small number of the constituency of Ireland
as compared with the constituency in England, yet that
the main cause was tile poverty of the country. The
Noble Lord could scarcely be igndrant of the value of pro-
perty in Ireland, and he would, with the permission of the
House, advert to that part of tine country in which the
Noble Lord was a landlord. In Tipp: racy the population
in 1831 was 402,000, and in the valuation by Mr. Griffith
in 1832. the valuation of the land in thabtec_oouurnagt was
886,4391. a.year, and he believed it wouldt found
sates not more
the present number of electors in tl.at ce‘u,
F,eYn Vic Govern-
than 2,000. The time hal now
the Irish Re-
meat had fairly grappled with the
the present 13111 as one thataeßo
eucaiodumbajetenceti,,dand he regarded
ill that would settle the
form Bill ; he conse'ercd it
it': In !cell! titsned, , and
would 1d wouldb be
now
op
wdr o underjin t:
give ':.„ of great good, and such a
mood system of registration
the consideration of the
ed that the present state of
Bill was the one
Tee question then came to he,
things House. a
,A
sieuno
to reform the basis of thael. obtfLirialong:thlirliiicanhe,
and carriedSr
ll
Ps.ssiebacition to all parties. Many attempts had
awsats oi tg
li'veteth bote:Pitioaajietsice;ledilla'adrs p
rt
oo p do
sodso.
been niaee
but the consequence was that it was
defined -ea- the Lords. The present
Attorney-General
thrown 0-- ia •
when
• • Bills for t.c tame purpose last year,
brought inbut he
innfounwd
blnitahn'tlt-yliftresarunepc
pi,s)gasnotre Thethe slighteston ly tbinigleandtahr
aiecineo
70)tfaesihti
ost
hataa.tekeet
ba-
sis which lied been most praised by the Consersative party,
new basis for the franchise, and they
and mare eopecially by tee Right Hon. Ba^onet the Mem-
ter for Temworth, and the Hon. and Learned Member for
Eeetea. IVheu they found that the constituencies of Ire-
land did not amount to cnc-half of the extent proposed by
the authera cf the Reform Bill, surely, then, it became
their duty to place tire standard for the franchise upon
such a basis as wool I bring them to somewhe,e the same
amount. Ile would take the county ( f Cork; i i 1834
the population of that county was 703,716, the va'ue of
land sea; 1,137,9421. and the constituency
apparently there were more, but making allowance
for deaths and removals the number of the constituency
was about 2,000 ;
would be found to be about 2,000,
elector to every 400 inhabitants• wln hich gavnecoenltye one
reference
of rental.
valuation there was only one voter to
every 5001.
?—( Hear.)
Was that the case in any county
titiihat keepingg the tenure
For his own part he was of
present. He was glad,
would be much smaller than with the 5/. rating the nhu:mnPbienarit°olf voters the registry
had erred on the side
therefore, the Go
if arty error there was, and they acted
it upon a higher b
of liberal tee
wisely not . thought they would have followed
1 • einl if the franchise had
out a more
d to the tenantry of Ireland without reference
been granted At the saremecotrnmts
oteitulpiteiona prin e
to weary at all. He did not think it wise in any country
to give the
landlords the power of withholding the rights
of ci
• •,whip from the people. In that opinion he con-
curredt z
with th: Ulster Assr,-- ; and he should say, in

o t,,

Association