The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-09 00:00:00

poverty. Ttie Hon. Geatfeman had also threatened them
with a combination of agricultural labourers, should the
Bill pass into a law. II s said, that when the hsy or corn
harvest came about, the labourers might combine, and set
the farmers at defiance. Now, let in ask the Hausa to
look at what had taken place. Had there been any corn
oinatioa of the agricultural labourers siece th a New
Poor-law had been enacted ? He emphatically sell that
there had not. He would take no credit for the saving of
money which had been effected, for he frankly avowed that
it was but a secondary consideration. Toe regeneration of
the poor was what the originators of the Bill had looked
at, and he was quite sure, though the rates had been
doubled, the genilemen of England would not have
grudged it, had the character of the poor been raised from
the degradation in which the old law had steeped them.
He ( Mr. F. M.) held it to be next to impossible that
they could now abandon the new system. lie did not be-
lieve that there was any Membar is the House, not even
the Hen. Member for Finsbury himself, who would now
urge therei:fais go back to the old system. That being es-
tablishekthe question was could they carry out the
new systdm without the aid of central management. In
his opinion, it was impossible. The original Bill was founded
not upop • the opinions of the Commissioners themselves,
but updta their opinions founded upon an examination
into, and approval of, the management of the poor in
certain parishes, which they were anxious should be carried
into effect throughout England. He did not intend at alt
to draw any comparisons between gaols and workhousss,
but. he could not avoid drawing the attention of the House
to the beneficial results which bad flowed from the system
of central management, which had been adopted with
regard to the prisons of Scotland. All parties there
give their hearty approbation to that system.—( Hear.)
They only wanted central management for the
put pose of having a similarity of management throughout
the country. Already great improvements had been made
in the management of the Poor-laws ; but still there was e
wide field left for the beneficial operation of the Commis-
sioners. A great part of the country wes still untouched,
and without the central management, they ss ould have one
system in one part of the country, pulling against the sys-
tem established in another part. lie would now come to
the question of expeese, and, fur the purpose of compa-
rison, he would take that year 1834, the year in which the
Hon. Member for Maidstone stated there were peculiar
circumstances tending to reduce the rates. In that yea!
the amount levied for the purposes of the poor amounted
to 6 300.000/ , while in 1840 the sum was reduced to low
mad a half millions, allowing a saving of nearly two millions
effected upon the simple administration of relief to the
poor ; and he was ready at the same time to maintain that
the sum given, in bona fide relief was greater than was
given in 1834. The pecuniary result, however, was nut
so satisfactory as the result otherwise. It had certainly
greatly tended to raise the character of the working classes
even to a point he had scarcely expected them tc ehave ar.
rived at in this country. Suppose the Poor- law Com.
mission were to be at an end, and that the
Boards of Guardians were to assume the sole control of
unions under their charge. He would ask what bearing
that would have upon the conduct of union officers, whose
appointment and dismissal is now under the control of
the Commissioner. It had been made a frequent subject
of attack that they bad not used those powers with effici-
ency in many cases, but he could only say that wherever
the Commissioners had been made acquainted with the
misconduct of any union officer, they had invariably ordered
a strict examination into the facts, and they had either dis-
missed the officer or shown the public that he was not is
fault. Last year the Commissioners had dismissed seventy-
five officers, besides having accepted the resignation of
many others who found their dismissal inevitable. They
had also taken care to inquire into every complaint brought
before them. He thought that if, on the other hand they
left all control in the hands of the guardians, they would
be unwilling to dismiss officers whatever offence
they might have committed, as these officers would pro-
bably be with them objects of partiality. The power
of supervision, which was placed in the hands of the Com-
missioners, by which they might discharge officers
ap-
pointed by the guardians, was, in his opinion, one of the
greatest advantages of the whole system. But the Hon.
Member who had last addressed the House stated that if
boards of guardians were left to themselves, there would
be no fear that they would attempt t,) fall into the abuses
of the old system. Ile (Mr. Mauled had made some in••
quiry on that subject of the Poor-law Commissioners ;
end no one could say that they had any reason to misre-
present the facts—but they gave him to understand, that
so far from there being no apprehension that boards of
guardians would return to the old system, there was scarcely
one abuse of that system which some board or another had
not applied for permission to adopt. Some of theist had
asked permission to give relief as wages, others had sugs
gested the propriety of granting out-door relief to non-resi-
dent paupers, and others had taken certain ladies under their
protection, who had saddled the parish with illegitimate cif-
spring, and those boards begged they might be allowed
to leave those women to go at large, while their offspring
were to be maintained at the expense of the parish. Ali
these propositions had been made, and yet they were told
that the Boards would be guided by the principles of the
amended law if left to the exercise of their own discretion.
The House should also remember all the obloquy that had
been heaped on the Commissioners, of which they alone
had borne the brunt, no matter what were the grievances
complained of, or by whom they were committed ; and he
would a-k them whether they would find a Board of Guar-
dians who would not shrink from encountering the same
abuse and misrepresentation cast on them, from one end of
the year to the other, for the pains they had taken in guard-
ing the interests of the union over which they presided.
It had often occurred that the Commissioners had to defend
the acts of guardians, and take on themselves the respon-
sibility which the others refused to bear. He believed that
if many of the Boards were consulted, they would rather
abandon their duties altogether, than be deprived of the
advice and guidance of the Commissioners. If they did
away with the central authority, they would soon see those
evils spring up again which had before been complained of,
and the result would be that they would find it necessary
to app Ant a new body to suppress them. He was; there-
fore, of opinion that it was much better, until the Poor_
law was established on such a firm basis that there could
be no doubt as to the uniformity of practice which would
prevail, to continue the central supervision as it now
existed. lie did not care about the time for which that
authority was to be prolonged, for that did not affect the
principle of the measure. All he asked was, that the
House should adept the main features of the Bill, among
which he considered the establishment of a central autho-
rity as the most essential. Ile would not, then, make any
allusion to the attacks of which the Commissioners had
been the objects. He would abstain from all matters
that could only lead to personal recrimination. it was
his anxious wish that they should preserve the modera.
tion which-the nature of the question required; and they
v;onld thus have a better chance of arriving at some
measure, which, while it maintained the principle of the
Act would tend to the benefit of the public, and elevate
the character of the labouring classes in this country,
and would at the same time afford the poor that protec...

lion and that relief which he leas sure it was the wish a
every Englishmen to extend to those whom he found depen.
dent on him,—( Hear, hear.)
Sir E. K N ATC BU L wished to melte a Cosy obser,
vations on the measure then before the House. He en.

tirely agreed in the opinion that the most importare
clauses of the Bill would be best discussed in Committee,
He would, however, confess at that stage, that, in looking
over the clauses of the Bill, there were many he could not
agree to. lie had hoped, that when the Government
were introducing a measure for the amendment of the
Poor-law, their efforts would not have been solely confined
to giving additional powers to the Commissioners.—
( Hear, hear.) He had certainly expected that the well-
known fealing which prevailed through the country
would have in7luced them to introduce setae measures of
relaxation into the system. He looked upon the question
of out-door relief as one of considerable, if not primary
importance. lie admitted that it would be unwise that
relief should be given in aid of wages : but at the sam:
time ho should say, that where they found
parties without any fault, if they were unable
to receive any wages whatever, it would be but fair
to invest the Commissioners with the power of granting
out-door relief to such parties if they should think proper.
Ho would refer to circumstances that had taken place
within the last six weeks in the union of Ashford, with
which he was himself connected. All knew the incle-
mency of the present winter ; it happened that in conse-
quence of that inclemency several poor persons were coin.
pelted to apply for out-door relief in the union in question.
The ease was so grievous, and the pressure so urgent, that
the Board of Guardians, at all times reluctant to give ow-
door relief, consented to grant it ; and afterwards, in com-
pliance with the Act of Parliament, reported the fact to
the Commissioners. He held in his hand the reply which
was given by those functionaries. In it they recommended
that before granting out-door relief the guardians should
endeavour to ascertain the urgency of the claim by first
receiving the head of the family into the workhouse.
It appeared, however, to him (Sir Edward Knatchbull)
that such a step would be most harsh—that it would be
cruel to take a father inter a workhouse, and allow the
mother and children in the meantirre to provide for
themselves. There had been already ample evidence in
the case in question that the parties were really destitute,
an they had been deprived of the opportunity of having
re course to arly kind of work by the severity of the
weather•. The Commissioners afterwards recommended
that the heads of families should be required to work at
task-work. But they had no such work at which to em-
ploy them. They neat recommended that task.work
should, if necessary, be found for them out of the work-
house, but he believed it was equally impossible, consi-
dering the severity of the weather, to put the parties to
such work. These families had not since been re-
lieved, and he knew not how they bad since lived,
unless it were by the charity of their neighbours. He
thought that a provision might be made for such cases
in the amended Act. lie hoped that suggestions of that
kind would be attended to by the Government. He would
say one word on the Central Board, the necessity for
which he admitted, in order to carry the law into effect•
should be prolonged, but there might be different opinions
as to the time to which its continuarco m;ght be eltm
Ile certainly thought that the power of the Commissioners
be the more
that a period of five years would
K❑atc'abull
ad-
visable extent, while he ( Sir
His Right Hon. Friend near him (Sir E.
Edward
be sufficient.
was of opinion that three years would
the power
He thought that, as far as management went,
oefthatni
Commissioners, but he
should be left in the hands of the Co
far a l could.
Peel) drought
would restrict the powers of legislation as
of thes
He should vote for the second reading
who believed that the
Lord HO WICK was one of those
leiadgebattes
d been one of the most beneficial that
Act of 1534 ha
been brought forward, and that the Commis_
signer er
everNvl) o had recommended and the Government which
to carry it were both entitled to the gra-
Bill, with
titude the courage
the hope of making the necessary alterations in Committee.
of the New Poor-Law, which had been 'uttered
sentiments,giit
with great satisfaction, for after the denunciations of the
tredataiii
month after month and year after year, which had been
repeated by the press, and in speeches after dinners,
and at meeengs, where they came fairly
thietucdoenfoesfsetlideitrhactohu
entrhY•ad
to discuss the
subject
in the House of Commons. Before those who were prepared
cruelty