The Sun.
London, England, 1823-04-29 00:00:00

creeiptisite; hewoUld dOliim the *justice to say, had not affected'
to misunderstand the hypothesis of al. de Vißele. His reply
=was:—" If there be a determined project to interfere by
.force
,or by menace in the present struggle in Spain, so convinced
are his Majesty's Government of the uselessness and danger
eeifettny such interference—so objectionable does it appear to
them in principle, as well as utterly impracticable an execu.
• tion, that when the necessity arises, or (I would rather say)
when the opportunity offers, I am to instruct your Grace at
once frankly and peremptorily to declare, that to any such in.
eterference, come what may, his Majesty will not be a party."
Thishowever was rather a parturiuni monies than any thing
else. It was with these words that his (Mr. AP Donald's) mis-
givings began. Instead of the language used by the Right
Hon. Gentleman, " come what may," &c., he should have
expected him to have said to the Duke of Wellington, " lose
no time in deprecating the policy of France as a gross viola-
tion of all the principles of international law. Consider it as
• directed against all civil rights, and as repugnant to every
principle of justice, and in whatever councils these principles
may be adopted as those of action, from those councils will his
MiStettty withdraw himself." In his opinion the Duke of Wel-
lington plight, to have been instructed to have negociated on
the subject at Paris, where he would have had the French Go.
vereurient to contend with, and the French Government alone.
Above all, he would have directed him not to shelter himself
under any thing that would admit of a doubt. He ought to
,have required the French Government to give way—to have
retninded the French Monarch of all that had been done for
hint by England, and to have pressed on his consideration how
• little was required from him in return. He should have re.
neinded the French Government that, under •certain eircum-
staeces, we were bound to maintain the Bourbons on thethrone,
hut that those engagements must terminate if France persisted
in her hostility against Spain. It however appeared that the
Duke of Wellington, uninformed, and but half instructed, set
Out for Verona. 'l'o have done nothing at Paris was an error.
.The next error, perhaps, but he asserted it with less confl-
dence, wart committed by the Duke's going under such dr-
curnstances to Verona at all. He now came to 'speak of
the Holy Alliance. Ile did not know whether it was expected
that he should approach that august body with awe and reve-
rence; but he would be willing to do so when they reinem.
bered that themselves were but men, and that those over whom
they held sway were men and not things. eWhen they recol-
lected this, then, and then only, would it become a member of
the British Pailiament to bow down to kiss the hem of their
IMperial purple. Till then he would continue to designate them
by a name which, from the English House of Comnions they
must still be content to hear at least a little longer, he would
call them. a band of tyrants. They Right Hon. Gentleman had
vindicated the conduct-of Sir W. A"Court at Madrid. Before
he remarked on the conduct of that Gentleman, he must ob..
,serve, itappeared that things had got to such a pass in this
country, that the Ministers of the Allies presumed to knock
at the door of the Foreign Office to inquire about the Minister
his Majesty might be pleased to appoint to represent him, not
in their Courts, but in other Foreign Courts.—(Hear, hear !)
—With the selection of the Duke of Wellington to repre-
sent this country at Verona, he found no fault, provided
that the part which he acted there was such as it became him
to act. He knew there were those who thought the Duke of
Wellington too intimately connected Withthe,Sovereigne of the
Continent to be fitly selected on such an occasion, but on the
other hand he went to the Congress with his person thickly
covered with the badges of the gratitude of those with -whom he
was to treat, and his very name was a breathing record of what
might be done to repress the gigantic strides of tyranny. No
finesse, no artifice was wanted from him in the course of these
transactions; frankness and decision were all they ought to look
for but where were these to he found? Had the Duke of Welling-
ton carried but a tithe part of those qualities to the Congress;
which had so often distinguished him in the field, that mu-
sacre might have been prevented which was at this hour going
on in Spain. The Duke of Wellington had reiterated 'the
queries of M. de Villele; but France ought to have been re-
minded of the treaty of Aix la Chapelle, which bound us not
rto suffer Spain to be attacked by another Power, till she had
first been called to our bar. The Duke of 'Wellington had
- spoken as if France had to apprehend an attack from Spain,
and had endeavoured to comfort France, by giving assurance
that Spain was not in a condition to make any serious attack.
The ignorance of the Duke of Wellington with respect to the
reteestione between France and Spain, he considered to have
been ill got up, as a few days after he was found drawing a
very nice distinction between the external relations and in-
terhal affairs of Spain. The course taken by the Duke of Wel-
lington was remarked. upon by M. Chateaubriand, in these
terms :—" The Cabint of the Tuileries have not forgotten, that
the principal motive alleged by his Grace the Duke of Welling-
ton at Verona, for not explaining himself upon the nuns firderis
wan the ignorance of his Government of the transactions which
• had taken place betw..!en France and. Spain, from 11120 to 1822.
That objection was removed at die Congress, as it will he
here, by the single observation, that the grievances of which
France might have , to complain on the subject of the
Spanish Revolution, were unfortunately of public notoriety ;
and this is what the Undersigned will have occasion to
develope in the course of this Note." He wished to recall the
view which the Right Hon. Gentleman had taken of the sub.
ject, He had described the case which France called the at-
tention of the Congress as " defensive," " prospective,"
" hypothetical," "contingent," and " precautionary." But
never since England was a country had such an appeal been
made to her before. What answer would the Ministers of
Elizabeth have given upon such an occasion ! In later days,
what would have been said to it by the Godolphins, the
Somersets, and the Chathams ? He thought Lord Burleigh, in
a case like this, would have done something more than shake
his head, though a shake of the head from him was known to
have been tolerably significant. Our Plenipotentiary, how-
ever, had scarcely shaken hie head, when the propositions of
France came before him. He had thus expressed himself.—
" Without adverting to those principles which his Majesty's
government must always consider the rule of their conduct, in
relation to the internal affairs of other Countries, they con-
sidered that to whatever degree either the origin of the Spanish
revolution, the system then established, or the conduct of those
who have since had the management of the internal affairs of'
Spain might be disapproved of, any amelioration which might
be desired in the Spanish system, for the sake of Spain herself,
ought to he sought for in measures to he adopted in Spain,
rather than abroad ; and particularly in the confidence which
the people should be taught to feel in the character and measures
of the King." He (I%lr. Macdonald) did not envy them their
confidence in their King. They considered that an interference,
with a view to assist the Monarch on the Throne, to overturn
that which had been settled, and which he had. guaranteed, or
to promote the establishment of any other form of Government
or Constitution, particularly by force, would only place that
Monarch in a false position, and prevent him from looking to
the internal means of amelioration which might be within his
reach. " Such an interference always appeared to the British
Government an unnecessary assumption of responsibility, which,
considering all the eircumstanceti, must expose the King of
Spain to danger, and the Power or Powers which should
in-
terfere, to obloquy, certain rights, and possible disasters ; to
enormous expences, and final disappointment in producing any
result." But this fine web was soon destined to be torn aside,
and that rather rudely, for forth came the thundering declara-
tions of the Allies. On these declarations his Hon. and Learned
Friend had done so much justice, and had with so masterly a
Land laid bare their folly, falsehood, and insolence, that he
would only say, that whoever read them must arrive at the same
conclusion to which he had come. The language held to Spain
was much, that it was proposed at last, as a matter of concession,
on certain conditions, to admit her " to liter place in the great.
European Fancily." lied that course been taken which he
conceived the dignity of this country required to he taken at
Verona, he might be told that still there would have been a
chance of war. lie would answer, that this was a world in
eomething must always be left to chance ; and he would
gay, that the, worse chance of getting into it with discredit had
been preferred, to the better chance of entering into it with
credit. lie knew it was the belief in the best circles pn the Con-
tint:lit, that had the tone of this country been at first less equivo.
cal, it was almost certain that peace might have been preeerved.
The Right Hon. Gentleman had said, that if war must take
place sooner `or later, he would prefer letting it come later.—
Rut he (Mr. M‘Donald) would prefer never, to either sooner
or later, acid be must contend, that by-the folly of Ministers
the best chance of keeping out of it altogether had been lost.
In pages 12 and I4,someexplanations were given. The Right
Hon. Ge»tleman described the question at issue to be one so
" deeply affecting the interests, not only of the powers imme-
diately concerned, but the world, that the Duke of Wellington
ought not to leave Paris, without having placed in the hands
of the French Government the eventual offir of bite Majesty's
mediation." On the offer of our mediation, he agreed in the
view taken of it by the Duke de Montmorency, who had stated
that his Most Christian Majesty could not but feel, (and
this the House ought to bear in mind through the debate)
" that the situation of France with regard to Spain was not of
a nature to call for a me diction between the two Courts. In
fact, there existed no difference between them, no epccific
point of discussion, by the arrangement of which their .re-
lations might be placed on the footing on which they ought to
stand. Spain, by the nature of her Revolution, and by the
circurnstencee with which it has been attended, excited
the apprehensions of several great Powers." From the
vacillation observable among the French Ministers, it was
clear that much might have been done by this country, lied
the Duke of Wellington acted with the requisite firmness.—
The Government of England, however, instead of taking the
conree which it ought to have taken, had sent Lord Fitzroy
Somerset with the Duke of Wellington's compliments to his
oil frientla in Spain, to represent to the Spanish Government
tLat, to satiety France, they bad better give up every thing,

even the-principles of their Constitution? To this communi-
cation his Grace had appended some abstract notions of what
a King ought to be, which he thought it might he well that he
should extend into a longer treatise, and get it disseminated
through all the Courts of Europe. The _Honourable Gentle.
man proceeded to notice the demands made on the part of the
French King by Monsieur de Chateaubriand, and to com-
ment on the French King's Speech to the Legislative Bodice.
Of that Speech it was needless for him to say much, as
the Right flonourableThntlermin had saved him the trouble,
by declaring that it struck directly at the root of the Eng-
lish Constitution. Portugal had had the spirit to protest
against it, but this country had taken another course. The
Vi.scount Marcellus had brought to the Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs (he regarded this as an instance of great effron-
tery) a copy of the French King's Speech, accompanied not
with such explanations as might have been expected, but with
a formal demand for information respecting our intercourse
with Spain. How had this been met by the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman ? Did he, on the spot, demand explanation ? Not he
had had recourse to the old expedient, affecting to misunder-
stand the speech, and lea ing it open for a new construction to
be put upon it. Though the word had given offence when used
on a former night by his Hon. and Learned Friend, he would
say that to him this appeared to be nothing less than " truck-
ling." Why, after such a document had been received, were we
to go drawling to the Court of the Tuileries with a tender of
a double construction, and of again using our good offices with
Spain. He now came to notice the attempts which had been
made to procure the_ submission of the weaker to the stronger
Power. It was one thing to arbitrate between two parties, and
another to use our good offices all on one side. It appeared
that we were " suggesting to Spain, in a tone of friendly.coun-
sel, alterations similar to those which France was proposing as
the alternative of hostilities." This was the part which Sir
Wm. A'Court was instructed to act. The answer which he
received from M. San Miguel was that which a Patriot Minister
might be expected to give. lie could consent to make no alte-
rations in the Constitution, but he broke out into some excla-
mations against the conduct of the French Government. Were
it not that nothing should occur to dim the lustre of the French
RevolUtion, might he not also have broken out into exclama.
tions against that false *lend who still continued to tease the
Spanish Government into making concessions to an imperious
enemy ? It was in September that'Sir 'Wm. A'Court first un-
derstood what the demands of the French Government w. re ?
Chateaubriand• had 'then somehow got the Bidassoa into his
head. It had, perhaps, been brought to his thoughts in some
tale, like that mentioned of the river Jordan being brought to
baptize the young Napoleon. It was represented that King
Ferdinand was to cross the Bidassoa to throw himself into the
arms of the Duke d'Angouleme at the head of 100,000 men.
He strongly censured the grounds on which it had been at-
tempted toinduce the Spaniards to alter their Constitu-
tion. The French Government hail intimated, that with a
prospect of concession they might suspend their arma-
ments, but that they might not be amused by mere assur-
ances, their preparations must continue without intermission.—
The Hon. Gentleman described other parts of the negotiation,
the answer given by M. de San Miguel with respect to the
demands of France, and his statement that if negociations
were entered into, lw would not be the person to negociate.—
This answer proved that the Spanish Government bad not been
fouled by the professions of 1 mance, though our Ambassador
had been. The demand on the part of France, that the person
of the King should be placed in safety, considering the uniform
temper and forbearance of the Spanish people, was little better
than an insult. By the Constitution of Spain, the person of
the King was inviolable, and therefore the demand was wine-
cessary. ' But while concessions were required from Spain,
did we find that anything of the kind had been suggested to
France ? Had, she, been requested to withdraw her army
of observation, merely for decency's sake, but a few
miles from the Spanish frontier ? This had not been done,
but the propriety of maintaining that army of observa-
tion had been recpgnized by the Right Honourable Gentle-
man who had pronounced it to be the best antidote for check-
ing the contagion supposed to 'exist in Spain. Enough was
known of the good offices of this country towards France,
but where should we find that similar good offices had been
rendered to Spain. When France decided for war there might
have been some feeling of apprehension on the part of France,
some drawback on her exertions, had it not been removed, by
the Right Honourable Gentleman after the House had sepa-
rated for the Easter recess, setting down to pledge this
country to a state of neutrality. He had now done with
these documents. Would to God they had never found a place
in the archives of the country !—He would suppose a
case—that of an Administration
hostile to all liberal institu-
tions--that they were in the highest degree friendly to France—
how could there be a measure devised by the ingenuity of man
by which the interests of that country could be better served
than they were by those taken by his Majesty's Ministers in
the late transactions ? (Hear, hear, hear )—'ll7liat ever con-
tempt might be expressed for the French Ministry, they could
not be charted with duplicity, except indeed with respect to
Portugal. But could any man not see the quizzing, that
persiflage as it was called, that pervaded the whole of their
proceedings ? Assurances they gave, it was true. They tell
its, that should they succeed, the Crown of Spain should he
respected in the person of the King. Joseph Buonoparte
was King of Spain, and his brother Napoleon took a simi-
larly friendly interest with the present Monarch of France in
the affairs of Spain. The Right Honourable Gentleman said
the possession of' Spain by France could be of no consequence
now that the former had lost her colonies ; he begged par-
don, he believed it was the Honourable Member fort Hert-
fordshire who had said so : he would ask, was it meant to say
that the possession of the whole line of coast from Antwerp to
Gibraltar, where the Austrian dominions might be said now to
commence, was not an object worthy the serious consideration
of this country ? Look to Ireland. It was only a few evenings.
since that an Hon. Member assured the House that there were
five millions of the inhabitants of that country ready to unite
themselves to any enemy who should assist them in separating
that country from England. Let it be recollected that there are
discoveries always going on in science; that by a late one (steam)
for such a purpose as that he had alluded to was wonderfully
increased. What was then to prevent those crusaders from setting
us right also but its impracticability ? Be our coquetry with
those foreign despots what it may, their hatred of this Monerchy
is full and Implacable. The laws of the monarchical principle were
clear and intelligible. Might they not then say to us— Wait
only until we can close in Germany the doors of these Legisla-
tive Assemblies which the people in some of the German States
have had the impudence to demand—wait till Austria shall have
finally united Italy in her dominions--wait till the Russian flafi
shall wave over the whole of the Mores, and then, proud
Islanders, yout turn comes next."—(Cheers.)—lle begged par-
don of the House for having occupied it at such length. What-
ever might be the issue of the question that night, and that
question was—whether all Europe should become the prey of
one vast military despotism? time result will have been produced
by our conduct. It might be, that that which Buonaparte in
the plenitude of his power was unable to effect, a Bourbon,
supported by bigotry shall be able co achieve—if so, on our
heads fall the consequences_ _ _ _

-- Multi
Committunt cadent diyerso crimina tato,
Ille crucent pretium sceleris tulit hic diadems.
(Cheers.)—Whatever be the issue, be called upon the House to
do its duty by stating to the King, that his Majesty's Ministers
have not done their duty to him.—(flear, hear I)—lie should
conclude by moving—
" That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, to
inform his Majesty, that this House has taken into its most
serious consideration to papers relating to the negociation,
which has been laid before them by his Majesty's gra:ious corn-
mend.

" To represent to his Majesty, that the disappointment of
His Majesty's benevolent solicitude to preserve general peace,
appears to this House to have in a great measure arisen from
the failure of his Ministers to make die most earnest, rigorous;
and solemn pretest against the pretended right of the Sovereigns,
assembled at Verona, to make war on Spain on account of her
political institutions,. as well as against the subsequent preten-
sion of the French Government to deny that nations can law-
fully enjoy any civil privileges but from the spontaneous gran-
d their Kings ; principles destructive of the rights -of all inde-
pendent States, which strike at the root of the British Consti-
tution, and are subversive of Ills Majesty's legitimate title 'to
the Throne. •

Farther, to declare to His Majesty ' the surprise and sorrow
with which this House has observed that His Majesty's Mi-
nisters should have advised the Spanish Government, while so
unwarrantably menaced, to alter their Constitution, in the hope
of averting invasion; a concession which alone would have in-
volved the total sacrifice of national indipendence ; and which
was not even palliated by an assurance, from France, that, on
receiving so dishonourable a submission, she would dosist from
her unprovoked aggression.
" Finally, to represent to His Majesty, that,in the judgment
of this House, a tone of more dignified remonstrance would
have been better calculated to preserve the peace of the Conti-
nent, and thereby to secure the nation more effectually from the
hazard of being involved by the calamities of war."
Mr. S. WORTLEY said it was his intention to move an
amendment to the address proposed by the Hon. Member,
which should bring the House to issue upon the question,
whether it approved or disapproved of the conduct of Minis-
term in the late negotiations.—(Hear, hear feelings were
so totally diiThrat from those put forward by the Hon. Member,
and so confident was he that his feelings were supported by the
general disposition of the country, that he should have been
ashamed not to embrace the earliest opportunity of declaring
them in the face of the House. As to all that the lion. Member
had said respecting the conduct of other Powers, and even of the
conduct of France, there was much difference of opinion be-

tweets them. ‘fle felt as strongly as the Hon. Member could do,
that the conduct ofthe Allied Powers for the last few years, had
been strikingagainst the principles of our Constitution.—(Near !)
With regard to France, he could scarcely believe what he saw
of the course she was pursuing. He was convinced, however,
that those who guided her Councils would be stopped in their
career, and that the infamy of their acts would recoil on their
own heads.—(Cheers.)—For Spain he had not the same fears as
those expressed by the Hon. Gentleman, and he did not expect
that she would be conquered and occupied so easily. He con-
tended that the course pursued by the Duke of Wellington at
Verona was the true and proper one, and that it had been cor-
rectly said by the Noble Duke, that to have threatened war
would have been to have put ourselves in a forced position—
The question for the Government first to decide was, " shall
we remonstrate and put ourselves in a situation to support
such a line of conduct ?" In his opinion they bad wisely
decided in the negative. When, therefore, they had decided
for neutrality, their course was not to use violent language,
but frankly to declare the principles upon which they acted,
and then their first duty was to show to those Powers that it
was not for their interests to pursue the course they meditated.
With that view, he considered that the Duke of Wellington
had ably executed his task. It might be 'that the Honourable
Gentleman who moved the Address disagreed with him as to
the policy first determined upon ; but when that policy was
decided upon, the Duke of Welngton's measures were well
taken, and his language well used, for that purpose. It ap-
peared that after the failure to deter the Allied Sovereigns
from pursuing the course they had adopted at Verona, the
Duke of Wellington was able, by the same means, to induce the
French Government at Paris, to send to Congress to delay the
presentation of the dispatches agreed upon. Subse9uent to
that, however, they were undoubtedly presented. I he Hon.
Gent. found great fault with the Government for its mediation,
between Spain and France. But it appeared that they were
called upon for such interference by San Miguel, and that he
expressed himself satisfied with the course pursued by this
Government. And he was happy in saying that it appeared
to him that the dispatches of M. San Miguel showed that the
spirit of liberty had given him a decided superiority in frank.
ness and fairness over the writing of his opponents.—(Cheers.)
The lion. Member then read the following extract from the
dispatch of M. San. Miguel. " The acts to which I allude
would in ,uo, wise compromise tha most strictly conceived sys-
tens of -neutrality. Good offices, counsels, the reflections of
one friend in favour of another—do not expose it to the enmity
of the opposite party, even if they do not deserve its gratitude;
they are not, in a word, effective aid. Troops, arms, subsidies,
winch augment the force of one of the contending parties. It
is reason only that we are speaking, and it is with the pen
of conciliation, that a power, situated like Great Britain, might
support Spain, without exposing herself to take part in a war,
which she may perhaps prevent with general utility."---(The
reading of this extract was followed by much ckeering.]—This
passage he took to be a complete exposition of the policy which
had been adopted on our part, anti it was a clear proof that
such policy had been approved by the Spanish Government.
But the Honourable Gentleman complained of the manner in
which negociations upon this point were carried on. But he
contended that we did not advise Spain to concede any thing
to the menacing demand of France. To accept the advice of
a friendly Ally was quite a different case. If Spain knew that
she had the means of resistance, she was right in her refusal
to give up any thing. If she had not, as lie feared might be
the case, he did not think it would have been at all deroga-
tory to ter dignity to have made the advised alterations in her
Constitution. Upon the general view of the question, he had
come to the clear and undoubted conclusion that neutrality
was the right policy of this country. And he must ask the
Honourable Gentlemen opposite, who had been pushing the
reduction of our establishments as far as possible, and ad-
vocating the remission of taxes (and he was happy that they
had been so far enabled to relieve' the people), what would
have been the state of the country now, if we had remonstrated
at Verona and armed in support of that remonstrances ? The
condition of the people and of the country, must have,been
very different from what h now is. It was, indeed, said they
might equip a fleet. But if ever there was a war in which
a fret was of no use, it must be this one. It was, there-
fon, idle of Hon. Gentlemen to talk of remonstrating, and
`then following up such a course, by means that would mules
our situation ridiculous and unavailing in the eyes of the world.
For such a war as would be necessary to support our character,
and to act with effect, he saw nothing in the present state of
Europe which created a necessity. Even if France gained
temporary possession of Spain, that would not be injurious to
this country. It was a permanent occupation which would
imperatively demand our interference. But we could not arm
for such an interference with our reduced establishment,
and there was no necessity for calling upon the country
to support a large increase in our expenditure under existing
circumstances. When the national honour, or its real inte.
rest ,demanded such a sacrifice, he was sure the country would
abswer with its usual spirit to the call. The Hon. Member
concluded by moving an amendment for leaving nut the words
after the first paragraph, and inserting the following—
" To assure his Majesty of our entire concurrence in tne prin.
ciples which his Majesty lies repeatedly declared, with respect
to interference in the internal concerns ofindependent nations,
and in his Majesty's just application of those principles, in the
course of the late negociations, to the case of Spain.'
" To acknowledge with gratitude his Majesty's earnest and
unwearied endeavours to preserve die peace of Europe.
" To express our deep regret that those endeavours have
proved unavailing; and while we rejoice that his Majesty has
not become party to a war in Which neither honour, nor treaty,
nor the welfare of his Majesty's dominions required his Ma-
jesty to engage, to assure his Majesty that, highly as we esti-
mate the advantages of peace, particularly at the present mo-
ment, we shall be at all times ready to afford to his Majesty our
most zealous and affectionate support, in any measure which
his Majesty may find necessary, to fulfil the obligations of
national faith, to vindicate the dignity of his crown, or to main-
tain the rights and interests of his people."
Mr. T. WILSON salt, lie rose with pleasure to second the
Amendment, concurring as he did in all that had fallen from
the lion. Member for Yorkshire, and more particularly in
that part of it respecting the conduct of Ministers in their
prorupt and steady decision upon the line of conduct they had
pursued in these negociations. He was sure that in these sen-
timents he represented the feeling of a great body of his Con-
stituents, and he was sure it was their desire as it was his, that
his Majesty's Government should persevere in their adherence
to the principles of honest neutrality, and to a spirit of concilia-
tion both towards Spain and France, by which the blessings of
peace were likely to be continued and secured to this country.
That the whole of such a mass of papers should give perfect
satisfaction, or that they should meet with the approval of all
the Members of that Mouse was not to be expected. But
looking at the whole, his matured conviction was, that Mini-
sters had done all that honour, consistency, and firmness of cha-
racter required, and that they had thereby deserved the thanks
of the nation.—(li car!)—And he must be.' to say that the speech
of the Hon. Member who moved the Address, had not at all
altered his opinions upon the question. He wished not to be
understood as defending the conduct of France.—(Cheers.)—
Ile could find no word less severe to express die feeling with
which he regarded it, than execration. The invasion of Spain,
and the encouragement given to the Army of the Faith to re-
cruit anti organize themselves within the French territory,
were acts which no Englishman could tolerate. He would not
trust himself with expressing what he felt upon this subject,
because he did not think that they had any right to dictate to
the world the course they were to pursue, or to call other na-
tions to account for not entertaining the same views as them-
selves. He had been sorry to hear, upon sonic occasions, the
degree of severity with which foreign powers had beets ani.
madverted upon in that House. He thought he might say that
the most violent abuse had been descended to, such as to lower
the dignity and the character of a British Parliament.--(llear I).
All the purposeaof debate might surely be answered without
that asperity and personality which had been so much resorted
to. lie would not occupy more of the time of the House than
of i
to) reds ikmatitaty
that in every view which he could take of the conduct
such as to ensur'se tlileiniapstiejosbaintiotnhoefsethleircoocuenettirinygs,
a,s and
s beenlie
was certain would ensure them its support in case the national
honour or interests should hereafter require its exertions. -
Mr. 1101-IHOUSE was anxious to express his strong feeling
upon what be considered the gross failure and degradation re-
sulting from the measures taken by his Majesty's Government
upon this most important question. At the same time, he had
to congratulate the House, that neither in the amendment
which had been moved, nor in the speeches of the two honour-
able Members who supported it, had their British ears been of-
fended by a repitition of that language which had been spoken
in another place, to the utter debasement of the British name.
—(Cheers.)---They had at least spoken out like Englishmen,
and expressed their abhorrence of the atrocious conduct of the
tyrants of Europe in their attack on the liberties of Spain. The
Hon Member for London had afterwards found fault with the
strong language of some Gentlemen upon this subject ; but he
did not know a much stronger word in the English language,
than that of "execration," which the Hon. Member had lum-
self applied to the conduct of France.--(Hear ! and a laugh.)-
-The Member for London had also said that the majority of his
constituents approved of the conduct of Ministers in these ne-
gociations. Now he represented a large body of the inhabitants
of this metropolis, and as far as he could ascertain the feeling,
of his constituents, it was totally opposed to that of the body
represented by the Hon. Member. He believed that they
would be most happy, in such -a cause, to repeat all the mai.
fices of the last war.—(Cheers of dissent.)—This was his opi-
nion, as far as lie could acquite information upon the subject.
Ile did not mean to say that they would support a mere Go-
vernment war, for the recovery or defence of a particular pro-
vince. But if Ministers would go heart and hand into a po-

freedom of
oofefrthoel
tswotrhldeyawgaoiunlsdt
polar the
Ksi unpgr ttiliPegr e tbweo uflrde e
not gladly make to support them.. The Honourable Member
then expressed his surprise that the Honotirable Mover of
the Amendment should have inferred from the dispatch of
M. San Miguel his approval of the. conduct of the British
Government. He read nearly the whole of the document which
will be found amongst the State Papers, under the title,." Ex-
tract of a Dispatch addressed by M. San Miguel, Minister for
Foreign Affairs at Madrid; to M. de Colomb, dated Nov. 15,
1822 ;" and argued, that instead of an approval of the conduct ,
of Ministers, it was a direct complaint and censure.. After
this communication followed the Memorial of the Duke of
Wellington ; and it was to be expected from the character of
the Noble Duke, that he would have spoken to Spain the lan-
guage of independence and heroism.- Instead of that, it re-
commended the only conditions which M. San Miguel's dispatch '
had stated the Spanish Government could not receive. When
it was said that the Duke of Wellington had a right to ad..
vise Spain on account of the claim which he had upon her grati-
tude, he would ask if the Duke of Wellington had no claim upon
France ? Were not the Bourbons indebted to him for their
restoration to the throne? Hie claims upon that ungrateful
family were at least as much as upon Spam, yet no concessions
had been advised to them. Tlie Hon. Member then proceeded to
complain of the manner in which the claims of this country had
been enffirced when Spain was oppressed with difficulties on
all sides. Was this a time to demand pecuniary compensa-
tions, when Spain came gallantly forward in her distress, and
said, "we find ourselves sinking, come and help us." Comb-1
tions too, were stipulated for the safety of the King. The
King t They never heard an English Minister now speak
about the people. It was all the King—that cursed monarchi-
cal principle—(Loud murmurs and cheers)—it was an accursed
principle as the tyrants of the Continent had expounded it—
(Cheers)—and that it was which created the misery and slavery
of man. He had been surprised to hear the Right Hon. Secre-
tary say that the subject of Spain was not to be made a pro-
minent question at Verona. Every body on the Continent'
knew that to be the real object of the Congress. lie admitted,
however, his belief that the Sovereigns separated without any in-
, tention of attacking Spain. The attrocity was too enormous, even
for them, and it was left to be accomplished by a miserable in-
trigue at the Tuileries, at the instigation of a Corsican ad-
venturer, who made a bet in the 'Solon des Drayer:, that he
would either drive the Duke de Montmorency, or M. de Vll-
lele into a war. The Hon. Member next described the feeling
expressed on the Continent against the policy of the late Mar-
guts of Londonderry, and the hopes entertained by the people
of those countries that the new Secretary for Foreign Affairs
would not suffer himself to be surrounded by those who occu-
pied the anti-chambers of the Allied Sovereigns. He was
upon the Continent at the time of the appointment of the
Right Honourable Gentleman, and he could assure him that
never did an individual enter upon office with more eager
hopes and expectations, or with more good wishes on the
part of those who looked up to his administration. Every
where lie was told of the liberality which was to he expected
from him, and indeed he had positively assured them that
they had got a Radical at the head of the Government.—(A.
laugh. )—Never had a Minister so fine ao opportunity of mak-
ing for himself a glorious and an immortal fame. All these
hopes had dissipated, and the Right Hon. Gentleman had at
last assured them that he meant to tread in the steps of his pre-
decessor. He believed, however, that the Right Hon. Secretary
had not done as his predecessor would have done in this case.
The Marquis of Londonderry would have adopted one course or
the other, but the Hight Hon. Gentleman had taken neither.
The conduct of this Government towards Spain had been like
that of a man who knew another was about to be robbed, and
-went and told him to put a little money or treasure within the
reach of the thief, and that then he might perhaps escape mur-
der and robbery upon that occasion. It had been attempted to
make a distinction between Spain as she now was and Spain
as she was in 18913. But he could show that the circumstances
,of the two periods were not so different. The Congress of
Erfurth in some respects resembled that of Verona. On the
.occaion of that war, Russia stigmatized the Spanish nation as
iAnisauityregsents ; Prussia joined France and Austria would have
done the same, had she been permitted to attend the confer-
ences at Erfurth. Had it not been for that circumstance 7 Aus-
tria would have acknowledged King Joseph. ,When his lute
introduced the subject of that war to Parliament,
he was made by his Ministers to speak of " the Spanish
nation, nobly struggling against the usurpation of France—
that this struggle rendered her no longer the enemy of Eng-
land, but her ancient ally ; and that he had no doubt Parlia-
ment would make every exertion for the support of the Spa-
nish cause." This was the language on the former invasion of
Spain—it was a language conveying the most magnanhnous and
proper ,sentiments. But he would be told that the cases were
different. In point of interest he admitted that they were, but he
denied that they were in point of honour ; and he trusted it would
not be said that England was to act solely upon the impulse
of interest. It was said, also, that the two cases were dif-
ferent, inasmuch-as that on the former occasion the Spaniards
were united, and that now they were divided. He denied that
they were more united then than they were now. All the
great Public Authorities, on the former occasion, were against
the independence of their country ; but the provinces came
forward, and the nation gradually united. And it was worthy
of remark, that at that period, the language of the inqui-
sition was the same as that which was now used by Louis the
Eighteenth. It was in substance, that " Institutions were to
be derived solely from the King."—(Hear, hear !)—At that
time the rench were at Madrid ; but shortly afterwards, not a
French soldier was to be found South of the-Ebro. In conclu-
sion, the Hon. Member observed that he heartily joined the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, in his prayers for the success
of the Spaniards; but whatever might be the result of the con-
test, he trusted that that House would preserve its character,
and give support to the cause of Spanish liberty.--(Cheers.)
Sir WILLIAM DE CRESPIGNY said he detested, as
much as any man, the cause in support of which the French
army were invading Spain ; but he'thought it his duty to con-
sider, first of all, the honour and safety of his own country.—
(A laugh.)—If the Honourable Member, W
who appeared so
afflicted with a cold—(Laughter), imagined that he, (Sir .),
would be deterred from stating his sentiments he was very
much mistaken. That Honourable Member laid better go
home and nurse himself.—(Laughing.)- He thought we were
not to he the champions of large expenditure. We had' laid
out 4100 millions to put up the Bourbons, and now a course was
proposed, likely to cause an expenditure of 800 more, to put
them down again. We always paid the piper. He should
certainly oppose any measure likely to embroil us in another
war.

Mr. BANKES said, he had listened with great attention to
ascertain, if possible; from the Hon. Mover, and those who
supported him, whether they wished the House to consider the
passage of the French army into Spain as a goodicause of war
on our parts against France. He understood that those lion.
Members did not go that length, but confined themselves to
stating that a different course cif negotiation on our parts would
have preserved the peace between France and Spain. But it
had been admitted on all hands that it would have been un.
worthy of this country to hold the language of menace, unless
it were really determined to follow it up by war. For his own
part, he was perfectly satisfied that nothing short of war on
the part of England would have had any influence on the in-
fatuated councils of France. And, after all, he seriously
questioned whether, had we gone to war, we should have had
Just grounds for doing so. We had no right, by any law of
nations, to make ourselves the arbiters of the world ; and in
his opinion, had no more right to intermeddle than France had
herself. And it would be perfectly monstrous to lay down
generally that when France declared herself on one side, we
should immediately range ourselves en the other. With re-
gard to Spain herself, no one knew ; be was sure the lion.
Member for Westminster would not profess to know, the exact
degree in which the Spaniards were divided, though it was cer-
tain that they were divided to some extent; and our taking
up the subject, would be only taking it up' in favour of
one party against another. The Spanish Minister had ad-
mitted, that all which was desired by Spain was neutrality._
Mere views of interest were not a just cause of war; though he
by no means admitted that it would be our interest to go to
war. We were now in the eighth year of peace, with a sur-
plus Revenue, and the means of relieving some of our bur-
thens ; and he could not but express his surprise that lion.
Gentlemen should civil for war, and also for that relief which
could be obtained only by our refraining from war. He thought
the danger, as between France and Spain, was greater to the
Dynasty of France titan to the Spanish cause ; and lie should
be as little surprised, as he should be sorry to find that just pu-
nishment would overtake the former.—(llear, hear !)—After
taking a short review of Spanish history from the time of the
Grandson of Louis the Fourteenth ascending the throne,
the Honourable Member proceeded to observe that he
thought any fears of the union of France and Spain were alto-
gether visionary. The Spanish Constitution might be worth
fighting for by the Spaniards themselves, but not by his coun-
try ; though he admired the spirit of the Spaniards in refusing
to make any alteration in their Constitution in compliance with
a foreign menace. There had, however, been so much hesita-
tion about the French Councils, that be thought it really doubt-
ful whether they intended, in the tint instance, to act as theyl
now had. On the whole, be saw every thing to commend in
the course which had been taken of the strictest neutrality.
He thought, too, that the war between France and Spain was
very likely to becomei an unpopular war ; but that if it were
once an English war it would immediately become popular.
The Honourable Gentleman declared his intention to vote for
the Amendment.

Mr. T. WILSON explained.
Mr. BARING said, that upon the conduct of the Allies,
there was, be believed, but one opinion in that House.---(Cheers.)
—But the resolutions before the House did not shew any inters•

1 tion to go to war ; and they were therefore far from any objec-
don on that ground, which had been referred to by his Bon.
Friend, He drought the interest of this country had been ne-
glected in then egociations at Verona; and he thought so, because
he considered that we were now more exposed to the chance of
war, than we should have been, by adopting a tone of finn and
vigorous remonstrance. When we found what was the ob-
ject of the Allied Sovereigns, we should have broken up the
Alliance. When the question of interference with Spain was first
mooted, we ought to have said, " We must have something to
say about Spain, as you have had about Poland." This might
have been said without insult, for which there was no neces-
sity whatever. It was, as he conceived, the duty of Ministers
to shew that they had pushed Remonstrance as far as they
could without involving the country in war. Lie saw no
proof of earnestness in the Negociations on the part of Minis-
ters. They had merely said, as coldly as possible, "we will
take no part." This, he believed was the strongest expression;
it was not earnestness ; it was not shewing that we took an.
interest in the question. His lion. Friend had spoken of
the hesitation of France. This was in his (Mr. Baring 's)
opinion a proof that had our Remonstrances been decisive,
they would have succeeded. As the case now stood, it
was by no means clear that we should 'escape war. We
were bound by treaty to Portugal ; and, if the French should
succeed in their war upon Spain, could any man in his senses
believe a
eveshthatarp tier
they would leave Portugal untouched, with the
same Constitution, from hatred to which they were now in-
• vading Spain?-(Hear,
_hear !)—The French would easily raise
a revolution in Portugal on the frontiers. The House knew
ficulty ; and were we then to go to war, or yield to thin so-
fron
hadcase might always be got u p without dif.
Phiss of Mons. Chateaubriand, admit that the Portuguese
were in the wrong, and leave them to their fate? The course
taken by Ministers
placed us in a
which he feared we could not get without war, or a erostra
don of our honour. Even upon the base question of intere?t
alone, he should have thought that the most gnwelling c..!
culator would have decided upon a tone of firm remon-
strance. A failure on the part of France would also tier
lution in France, _ there was every reason
us into difficulty. ; for he had no doubt it would bring
about a contest in Europe ; and if there should be
0a revo•
we should be forced into war. Firm negoPcrediattiierlanis,itillerielPtwe';°super-
suaded, would have averted the danger Wiall now threat•
ened us. The Negociations now before the House he had no
hesitation in describing as disgraceful to the Councils of die
country ; and if they were to be passed over with panegYric`
or even without censure by that House, lie thought the llouise
would receive any thing.-4 Hear, hear ! )--Sometimes tle
balance of power was treated with great scorn, and at others
it
time when it was to be thought of importance,
it was treated as a matter of the highest importance, just as
~
might slit the particulas purpose. But if ever there wasa
the present. lie agreed with those who thought the doge!.
arising from the consanguinity of Kings was much overnata.
mental to the liberties of this country.
But he thought that if the compact by which the Allies wer?
bound was allowed to remain, it might prove highly dew::
The Atilt's pl,
ordered all the petty States of Germany to break up
t?'_d
Constitutions. Among the rest, an order to this Twist:,ect,
been given to the King of Wirtemberg ; but lie had !L...
and the question, he believed, was still in discussion. Ouse
ee
bly the leight Honourable Gentleman could give the 11°9%
some information on this subject. Sonch did these fkultrit.
Sovereigns dread the progress of what were called 'then! l)rice,
ciples, that Russia now looked on Turkey with indider ~
_,
n"ihoultr
and Austria and Prussia, two countries hitherto o'
variance, were now united. If, in the result, they should it
it surely w s
make the Kings of Spain and Portugal despotic powerillonarels
would be their interest to check the only reinaininig _.
which had a free Constitution.—(Cheers.).—Ile adinttire
no great fear was to be inspired by this eircumstane bill
nei;xt theta
would not, in such a case, say, as had been said, , ,
~ bon
come on !" He wished them to be kept off. Lengllt';d, that
ever, immediately to the present question, he repoea the
he thought the negociations were most disgraceful t of
coun-
cils of the country, and be should therefore vote in favour
the original motion. in defence
Lord FRANCIS LEVESON GOWER 81)0°,1_ _ehorks
of the negotiations • but we regret that most of u e.r.,1_,-he
of the Noble Lord were inaudible. He observed this 1.51
should readily support a vote of censure upon anY_l4::`,.e, the
Minister who were to join France, or any other Powoer 'm
force
t his
ludiceennsure uPen
them to do. He did not think
could not, in the present instance, concur in a
bation
injury
speculative o f a
theories third; or
of who
happiness were even to
nayt tem p t t
of the,
Ministers, whose conduct had received the appro 1
they
..,ishea
Spaniards themselves, and who had done all whirinxi've re,
suited from the use of language an?, stronger well 0 the note
that any gt:*d would which
had been used. The Noble Lord s iortly. referred
nt
toe, no
of the Duke of Wellington to the Spanish Government,
be
contended that there was nothing in it which co
dered as at all offensive to the Spaniards.
He
Illember for
he should vote for the amendment of the Hon. .
0.. when
Yorkshire.—His Lordship very generally char awe
was
he sat down. Noble Lord on
Mr. WILBERFORCE eaturliniente`el thee A suh'eet on
the manly tone and plainness of b;
.s speecu. It was
the .ee,l.ag
of
which every man was bound to speak out with rlt
has corn.
an Englishman. The principles on which Frat.icedeproono.
menced her attack on Spain could not be too "
inuortunate Spa-
The conduct of France with respect to thy;lin
1 er attention
niards was marked by singular duplicity.
lle°
I said atenit
was called to the affiiirs of Naples, not a word
wasieditated an
Spain which could lead to suspicion that FICC
the
___ik,.iiis
to deny that they hail shown a strongClieclaredeeg;
attack on that country. Having thrown Off 0: irpe,.,ohle
Majesty's Illinisters stood forward, and it
sincerewas imp
dispogiiitul
rntoenfitnadf
tahestrireo:aegeriatiroenprtehseeren tawtiaoisra
°h at
to preserve peace. Looking at the Papers,
ac
oFtvivilrewisng,discntgowlc
ifeiGvdt
with
France,on
hc 0
oeatrthnirt
se s
seo
pabbaLluenatinDadHt
onuiekser any
protestela
d moderationel ti
a"
ieb
lin:t thatold,tfeos fc,pfilsiirrrions
erit a 1
lili iflelodect
fh
ew t
i:
sha
t.Ol '1.1.8
ac 7.11 d
d?;ie
01
ic.,)--
te lero rd
yet
merely that the English Government did not co-°Pelclaratilon
e
against the councils to which France was lendieg hero but to
:Ministers
m entrustedni ise o f
t to assistance
hm . would
Ditiiak:
og'filvilseiPnrit6: siitnitunCo,e'n°:s: shack l ine: the
merely
-1:1 elf
0 that, e
ers were certainly bound not only. to d o utie di
be
because
duties
very p
for invasion. With respect to the Duke ef Sirc4l;ngt°l ortot
oiavit bear,hlaniti!dr nr::::::
vent tee on
France upon Spain. His Majesty's Ministers feu ,ition t'''''
the policy of England was strict neutralit.
ad not been
cot..iwience,
derate language in France, and skew a friendly withdisP cOtid
wards Spain. It became the Ministers to proceed
.11, that
with respect to Spain and to convince her Governi lin hne
hltewdaids
pnoratifisenad.arotnhythtea face of
firolemPat;:stti
if they were desirous of preserving Peace/
of conduct they pursued, and lie certainly could neitii e tirne
proceedings in a vindictive point of view. M the b
oif lan.
' SUCh W_°:3,ce titer
gunge which the negociw ion with France seemed too,' rbaps
dPe e
they edit
sr on the
strong language. He was disposed to believe that wne ineesh '
endeavouring
part of this country would have made the objects of the
part of tills country would have niade thic I) 1n00t gselY
Government popular. France in the end woiild in.os. The
suffer for her oppressive attempt at aggrandiet;erld'"of sof-
Spanish people had hewn on a former occasion a I,..anee els
fering from the very darkness and bigotry which l'irtit reaeli
Madrid, but the opinion of the best informed per on
peer,.
ultimately the Saniards would rise in their struggle '°ce, o'l
The aggreeen-n ino Spain was not likely to benefit Fr.an rants to
regard-to I to perpetuate. The French army n. #4„,, that
2ortugal, France did not show any t_lolf ~,i ass
violate that territory, because she* well knew nor.,,uPs;?.,, „f-
-onder the protection of England. In case Portoge.i., ,!.,S;
tacked, we were hound to defend her. In that 4Tl.'„ ~,,,elt,
England must go to war, and in such a wile the cowl!, :_ttell,p
disposition to
doubtless afford the utmost assistance. • The lion. !i: by iii.,
again expressed his regret there had not been i!ro,ice one
Government of England a plain declaration
°T
jr 1,, since!
truth ; yet he could not say there was any want 0.t.,.$ alio!'
stern intended only to promote the interests of tneu '
He oppoeed the motion. o Xi"'
cry ' Adjourn •
pr.,
Mr. H. SUMNER rose amidst the of ' that re ,
stinting, as he did, a large and opulent county, he coue's`:,o3 iinqee'
prevent war. He was sure his MajeL.neote,
journ 1" Having obtained a hearing, he obgerved,,,, not eie:tt
expressing his sentiments upon the important qn
.!'„, of tit.
discussion. It must be obvious that die GoVeroly'keeil
country had pursued a steady line of policy,. wisd, 00;4
out of all Continental alliances which had iii vlevi sat in tie ,
of public liberty. The Noble Lord who recently , ,fii„ipea
House at the head of his Majesty's Goverrimen,,tl2.atutPabie.eht
to the Allies what were the sentiments of the in' neseatane
and the Members of Parliament. Upon that rep.r He
tot;
the principles of the nation must have been knof,veninc,,
sidered the line of policy adopted by the Puke "..„, most de
_.
highly beneficial to the country. Neutrality. ay he p.
able in a country recovering from a long onl!e:*....„dia, opel,',,
his Majesty's Ministers sincere thanks' fir the ra"a been sa'e`:
manly and honourable part they had
a war cdnimenced by this country would be poeith the FreZ
Ire could not believe the war would be popular 1va..., the no..
taken. IL in EradcA
Government. They had known our perseveretl,,T,'lstyis 111.io
of our arms. It was, however, the duty of II), ,4:_i_.'Jcontry.:,:i.
nisters, supporting the honour and interest of
loni :„I,;:e''
keep peace. If war must come, let it be delay
The cry, " Adjourn"! adjourn 1" was ageln,:"Zn orn re
use
Bible, and when i tcommenced, the Ministers sit?el,(l).;aalve Itit'tiered.
Several Members at the same time exclaimedtt _ „ `,-.,7bme b "
Mr. P. MOORE then rose, and moved Do '-''
) flee°
journed till to=morrow.weed to bYr.le. -sea
The question was accordingly put and _Day teerl wisp
without a division.—The other Ordcrhof the
of, anti the House adjourned at TWELVE °TLC"'