The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-01 00:00:00

PAUPER LUNATIC ASYLUMS.

Mr. NICIIOLL wished to ask the Secretary of State
for the Home Department, whether her Majesty's Go-
♦ernment contemplated any alteration in the law respect-
ing pauper lunatic asylums, whereby counties or
boroughs, having no asylum for the pauper lunatics
thereof, will be relieved from the duty of erecting or
providing such an asylum, in conformity with the pro-
visions of the Act 8 and 9 Vic., c. 126, and 9 and 10 Vic.,
c. 84, or whether it is intended to enforce the perform-
ance of that dnty?
Sir G. GREY said that it was not in the contempla-
tion of the Government to propose any alteration in the
law, and the Government would take care that asylums
should be erected in the counties and boroughs whera
there were none at present.

THE POOR REMOVAL ACT.
Mr. REDHEAD YORKE asked the Secretary of
State for the Home Department whether it was the in-
tention of the Government to repeal the Poor Removal
Bill this session, if there should be no general revision of
the poor-law system?
Sir G. GREY said that the Committee on the subject
were pursuing their inquiries into the operation of the
law, and till they made a final report he could not say
what the Government would do with regard to it.
The Prisons (Ireland) Bill and the Troops during
Elections Bill were severally read a second time, and
the first was ordered to be committed on Monday, the
12th April.

IRISH LANDLORDS.

Mr. HAMILTON rose to make an eieplanation con-
cerning certain charges lately made by the Hon.
Baronet, the Member for Marylebone, with respect to
an Irish landlord, of the name of Longfield. The Hon.
Member defend, d Mr. Longlield, and concluded by say-
ing, that that gentleman had subscribed 250/. to the re-
lief committees of ar his property.
Sir B. HALL said that he made his statements from
a return ordered by that House on the 4th of February,
and he had no wish to misrepresent the conduct of any
Irish landlords.
Mr. LEFROY entered at some length into a defence
of the Irish. landlords, and read extracts from several
letters he received from them, expressing their indigna-
tion at the unjustifiable treatment they received in that
House.
SUBSCRIPTIONS FOR THE RELIEF OF THE
POOR IN IRELAND.
Mr. YOUNG wished to call the attention of the
House to a return which had been moved for in the
mouth of February last, stating the amount of private
subscriptions made in Ireland for the relief of the poor,
and giving a detail of names and amounts. He had re-
ceived very many letters from Ireland of the report
which must be made, in answer to that motion.
—(Hear, hear.) It was a report which would do
great injustice to all parties ; it would gratify
the ambition of the rich and ostentatious, who wished
to have their charity appear before the public ; while
those less able to contribute, or more modest, would
be passed over entirely. He did not think it was a
return which ought to have been moved for, or if moved
for, that ought to have been allowed by the House,
considering the great personal injustice it would inflict
necessarily on individuals.
Lord HARRY VANE agreed with what had fallen
from the Hon Gentleman opposite, and thought that
before
ttc,heix,rettalre.eir,i were furnished to the House steps
If the Hon. ci,,,t1.e0 prevent their ever being published.
immediately after the
returns should not be recess he would move that these
man (ipposite would give notice that
H. Vane) would secollleuszed to the House, he (Lord
Sir G. GREY begged to corr et e
e misimpressioneagratify
that the returns would be made
the ostentatious, but rather to show 2. view to
o u g
of some exceptions in Ireland, how a good to discharge his duties. He might state "1"4
time that as regarded the whole amounjtolfhpre same
charity, that might be found in the papers alresidyive
fore the House, and he did not think it would be ''e-
sary to give it in a separate form. He believed, however
that it was perfectly legitimate for the House to order El
return of the amount of private charity in Ireland; but,
of course, if it were intended to specify the sums against
the names of the individuals as owners or occupiers, he
could not concede that it would be either proper or
prudent.
Mr. YOUNG said he objected to the document only
so far as it was intended to show the private charity of
the Irish landlords.
Mr. POULETT SCROPE said if there might ho ex-
ceptions, no one could yet doubt that the Irish landlords,
generally, had neglected the poor. Ile had a mass of
letters and documents which could immediately
prove the contrary—were it disputed. He could
not help referring to a report made by a Com-
mission of Inquiry, issued in 1834, about the
iwE,hen the cholera was raging in Skibbereen.
gEWS 11 That document stated that the subsc.iptions in aid of
poor had nearly all been from the. towns-
ve 06; little or nothing had been subscribed by the
c>"
One of these propriet Irs, with a rental of
4,01301,- • , had given nothing ; another, with 1,500/.
yeitr withdrawn his subscription from the dispensar)a.,,s;, subscriptions made amounted to 471.55,, and

, nearly all had been received from the town. They had
written to the non-resident landlords, none of whom had
given any answer whatever except four, and these
had given 11/. ss. out of a combined rental of 6,0001.
a year. These circumstances naturally made an impres-
sion on the public mind, under which they bad thought
necessary to provide for the poor by a compulsory impo-
sition on the landlords, and he trusted he might see that
fully settled before the end of the present session, which
would be the only means of ultimately setting these dis-
cussions and causes of discontent at rest.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN thought the Hon. Gentleman who
had just sat down had lost sight of a necessary distinc-
tion between his own remarks and those of the Mem-
ber for the Dublin University. The Hon. Member
for the University rose to vindicate universal character,
and, upon his resuming his seat, up got the Hon.
Member for Stroud, and made a general charge against
the Irish proprietors, stating that he had a mass of
documents and correspondence to prove that they had
neglected their duties. Yet the Hon. Gentleman ended
with a hope that these discussions might be set at
rest. Why, there never would be an end of them if
Honourable Gentlemen, without any connexion with
that country, or local knowledge of it and the
people, continually busied themselves in its affairs.
If old stories and old charges were to be raked up in this
way, the landlords of Ireland would be discouraged, and
it would be one way to cause the great experiment
they were about to make to fail—the poor would
be embittered against the rich, and the poor-laws
would work most ineffectually. He sincerely thanked
the Noble Lord the Member for Durham (Lord H.
Vane) for the observations he had made. He hoped
his Hon. Friend would not interfere with; he presen-
tation of the return, as the It! ght Hon. Barone:.
the Secretary of State,ror the Home Department had
stated that there would be no objection to pro-
duce a list of the grants of public money side
by side with the local donations. The imperfect
nature of the return ought to tell a lesson to
the Government not to grant returns so easily, and
when they could not accurately give the information
required. Now they were about to separate he thought
it right to take that opportunity of thanking the Govern-
ment for the kindness and patience with which they had
listened to the suggestions which had been made,
and for the way in which they had passed
the measures through the House.—(Hear' hear.)
Their desire for the amelioration of Ireland deserved
the gratitude even of those who had opposed the measure,
and he himself had proposed some amendments.—(Hear,
hear.) In his capacity as a magistrate, he should carry
out the measure in the temper with which it had been
passed.—(Cheers.)
Mr. V. SMITH hoped Hon. Members would not,
when they were about to separate, prolong a discus-
sion of this nature: As far as the return went it was
accurate, but it would not enable any one to judge of
all that had been done. Even the name of a
friend of his, who had greatly befriended the poor,
was not mentioued. Much more could be done for the
suffering people if landlords and others would personally
superintend the distribution of aid, instead of leaving it
in the hands of others. He would suggest that
the Honourable Gentleman should move, when the
return was brought up for presentation, that it
bhould not be priated. He thought the measure
ought to pass without obloquy being cast upon those
who would be intrusted with the carrying out of the
measure.
Mr. GOULBURN suggested that the Government,
in the absence of the Hon. Baronet the Member for
Marylebone (Sir B. Hall), should intimate that a com-
plete list of the subscriptions would be furnished, as it
was necessary that they should be informed what had
been raised in addition to the grants made by
the Government. The le turn in its present form
was most fallacious, and would lead to the inference that
many parties had negleeted their duty who had, in fact,
done a vast deal to assuage the sufferings of the people
of Ireland. It was not right that they Bhould stand be-
fore the country as criminals. With respect to the Bill,
he might state that he was strongly in favonr of a ge-
neral rate for the support of the poor.
Mr. LABOUCHERE regretted that he was unavoid-
ably absent during the earlier part of the discussion.
His Right Hon. Friend had intimated that there would
be no objection to furnish ample lists of the Gov-rn-
meat grant and the local subscriptions—(llcar, hear)
—and his Hon. Friend iv,,uld not ley the return referred
to in the course of the discussion on the tabletuntil the
Honourable Gentleman the Member for Cavan had
had an opportunity of bringing forward any statements
which he had to make with respect to it. He could not,
however, help availing himself of that opportunity to
state that nothing cou!d be more unfair than to measure
the amount of aid which had been afforded to the
people by the amount of the subscriptions raised
in the different localities, as many had expended
money on the improvement of their estates,
and in the establishment of soup kitchens
in their immediate localities.—(Hear.) He hoped it
would go forth to the public that subscriptions by
persons in Ireland was not the best way of relieving
the prevailing distress, as employment in cultivating or
reclaiming land, or in some other way, was far more va-
luable.—(Hear.)
Mr. TRELAWNY said it had been urged that
that was not the proper time to frame a poor-
law for Ireland, as the public mind was un-
settled on the subject, and consequently that it
could not be properly carried out. Now, that appeared
to him the coolest and most extraordinary statement ever
made, as a vast number of the people of Ireland were
absolutely dying of hunger, and consequently standing
in the immediate need of such a measure. Charity, he
thought, was a most unequal and indivious mode of taxa-
tion. A Noble Lord in the other House (Lord Mon teagle)
had stated, that out-door relief to the able-bodied would
prove most dangerous ; but he had not shown how the
introduction of the system would produce evil.
The report was then brought up.
Sir GEORGE GREY proposed the following amend-
ments :—Clause 1, after line 16, to insert the following
words—" And of such destitute persons as being disabled
from labour by reason of severe sickness or serious acci-
dent are thereby deprived of the means of earning a sub-
sistence for themselves and their families, whom they
are liable by law to maintain ; and of destitute poor
widows, having two or more legitimate children depen-
dent upon them." In Clause 2, line 7, after the word
"disabled," to insert "Or destitute poor persons dis
abled by sickness or accident as aforesaid, or suchedesti-
tute poor widows as aforesaid."
The amendments were ordered to be made to the Bill,
and the report was agreed to.
CUSTOMS DUTIES BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed.
ARMY SERVICE BILL

The Home went into Committee on this Bill.

Sir DE LACY EVANS wished to say a few words in
reference to what had fallen from the Honourable and
Gallant Officer the Member for Liverpool (Sir Howard
Douglas) last night, and also in regard to some obser-
vations made by the late Secretary at War (Mr. S.
Herbert). He regretted he did not see the latter Right
Lion. Gentleman in his place, while he (Sir De Lacy
Evans) made the few remarks he had to offer. That
Right Hon. Gentleman had stated the fact, that with the
exception of the non-commissioned officers in the
army, the great body of the soldiers were of 15 years'
standing in the service—that was, he said, the natural
period of the service in the army. He (Sir De Lacy
Evans) must say, after that expression of opinion, and
considering the will-merited respect which was due to
the Right lion. Gentleman for kindness to, and great
cure of, the army, he coafessed he was astonished at the
deduction which he made in recommending that the
period of service should be reduced only one year. He
trusted that the Hon. G,ntlernan would alter his
opinion of the question; and to induce him to do so he
would recal to his recollection the warrants which he
issued in 1845, giving the privilege of enlistment for
twelve or fourteen years. The proposition of the
reduction of one year would be perfectly nugatory
as a benefit to the soldiers. With regard to
what had fallen from the Hon. and Gallant Member, he
would remark that what he had stated about the money
of 800,000 dollars must have arisen from an error of
the press. He (Sir De Lacy Evans) had looked over
the dispatches, and was convinced that such must
have been the case. The dispatch of the Duke of
Wellington, which the Hon. and Gallant Officer had
quoted the
m Peninsulareasar soldiers,ho w as
so fa in
far
from
m going referencea to
ainst the present
persuaded, was rather in its favour, as it showed that,
even in the midst of a most important war, a limited
enlistment had not been found prejudicial. The greater
proportion of the Hon. and Gallant Member's address,
however, bore about as much relation to the mea-
sure before the House, as Tenderden stePple bore
to Goodwin Sands. While referring to the Duke of
Wellington, he would take this opportunity of thanking
him for his recent elevation of so many officers from the
ranks. During the past year no less than -13 noncom-
missioned officers had been raised to ensigns and cornets.
--(Hear, hear.) This was but a tardy act of
justice, and following out what had been done for many
years in France, Russia, and other countries.
There were no less than four individuals who, in his
humble opinion, were far better qualified to come to a
' right decision on this motion than any General in the
army.—(Hear, bear.) These were, the Noble Lord
now at the head of the Foreign Department (Lord
Palmerston), who had been for nineteen years Secre-
tary at War ; and the Secretary for the Colonies,
who had also for some time been Secretary
at War. The others were two gentlemen who had
been also Secretaries at War. The Hon. and Gallant
Member opposite had thought it right, because the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government had declined
giving the correspondence between the Ministry and the
Commander-in-Chief, to assert that the Noble Duke
at the head of the forces was quite opposed to the prin-
ciple which they had adopted ; and a morning paper had
ttnigitotproper to abuse him for having differed from
the e,eaaa9l`l
r would read th
dist L Why if the Hors. Membe
Gallant Member opposite. But what was
s
little more zealousif
more than his ill
a`c" of the: Noble Duke, who had not been lauded,
austrious services and illustrious cha.ac-
ter had deserve
presented. In hia
they would read these dispatches a
co.reut to what it had been re-
Intqluitpcations with the Go-
opinion was very YhitkeY would soon perceive that his
vernment when in
overtold themwere tahtat,
t.satlthPoiur:Zh
discipline and the
troops sent
had frequently
discipline, yet they soon lost tlaihaetthdtgh.
efficiency with which they first arri
these communications the Noble Duke had andp
all
pressed the necessity for improving the
morraeleeatof the
e
army, and had urged the wisdom of enlisting ahtt
set of men, and of increasing the pensions of theerar.
who were entitled to their discharge. This opinion,
then, came in well to support the decision of
civilians, and he was, therefore, justified in
asserting that civilians were fully competent
to judge of such a meisure as this. The Noble
Duke had stated that it was of ail thin,4s moat important
to raise the character of the men in the army ; and in
this opinion ho was supported by a man eminent for his

success in life—he meant Oliver Cromwell.—(A laugh.)
Well, he believed that at the time the opinion he was
about to state was delivered that Cromwell was a civilian,
for he believed that he was nearly forty years of age
before he entered the army. It is well known that
in the first two campaigns of the civil war that the
Parliamentarian army was unsuccessful, and in one in-
stance a portion of their troops was driven into Brent-
ford, and it was recorded in the statement of a conversa-
tion that had taken place between Cromwell and
Hampden, that Cromwell, to whose ingenuity and care
the elevation of the character of the men was chiefly
owing, had expressed great doubts of the ultimate
success of the conflict. To remedy this defect, he said
that he would go down into Lincolnshire, where he was
well known, and enlist the sons of the yeomen there,
whose hearts, as well as their hands, would be in the
cause. He had done so, and it was, in his belief, owing
to that movement of Cromwell.
Mr. GOULBUIIN believed that, in the discussions on
this subject, there had been one thing altogether over-
looked, and that was the fact that in the great majority
of cases the service in the army was under five years'
' duration. If, therefore, they limited thei service to ten
years instead of fourteen, they would not be saving
any evil, but they would possibly be losing a great
benefit ; for it could not be denied that if
the term of service were extended to fourteen years, the
country would be deprived of the ablest assistance
which the soldier could render, and of all the expe-
rience which he had acquired during that period.
He perfectly agreed with his Right Hon. Friend who ad-
dressed the House last night, that it would be wise and
judicious to limit the time to fourteen years, dividing the
period of service into seven years abroad and seven
years at home. He felt, too, that it would be most im-
p; oper to regulate the amount of pay or pensions of private
soldiers, and he hoped that subject would not be
touched upon by the other Bills, which it was under-
stood Government had in contemplation, for improving
the efficiency and general condition of the army. Still,-
however, he thought the present system ought to be
amended, it ought to be based upon more liberal princi-
ple-a, and he would be quite willing to make legislative
provision to that extent if he could see clearly that it
would not cripple or interfere with the financial ma-
chinery of the State.
After a few words from Mr. FOX MAULE,
Claude 1 having been read,
Sir 11. DOUGLAS moved, as an amendment, that the
word " ten" be omitted, and the word " fourteen" sub-
stituted as the limited period of enlistment.
Mr. HUME supported the original motion. He
thought that, if anything, ten years was too long ; and
he would be glad to see the term reduced even to seven
years. He believed that the passing of the present
measure would prove a glorious era in the history of the
British army. _

Colonel LINDSAY supported the amendment. In
his opinion the adoption of the term of fourteen years
would tend to give a greater number of old soldiers to the
army than the period of seven years.
Mr. FOX MAULE could net agree to the amendment
for the reasons he stated on the last night the question
was before the House, and he still adhered to those
opinions.
Colonel T. WOOD said a limited service, in con-
junction with a fourteen years' term, without the old
period of seven years being also in the option of the re-
cruit, was preposterous, and he must vote against the
clause.
After a few words from Colonel SIBTHORP and Major
LAYARD, in explanation,
Mr. J. COLLETT rose amid loud cries of " Divide,"
and said he must support the amendment, as the effect
of the clause would be to withdraw all opportunity from
the private of rising in his profession.
Sir H. DOUGLAS very briefly replied.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment 27
Against it
Majority against the amendment —35
The clause was then agreed to.
On clause 2 beirg proposed,
Colonel T. WOOD proposed the following amend-
ment.--Ist line, after the word " soldier " to omit the
words "aftercompleting," and insert "during the last year
of." He said that the object of the amendment was, that
a soldier might he required to make up his mind in the
last year of his service whether he intended to re-enlist
in his own or some other eniment.
Mr. F. MAULE considered that the soldier should
not be trammelled in the way the lion. and Gallant
Officer recommended; and that he should be allowed, if
he thought proper, to leave his regiment, and to regain
it in six months after if he thought proper, provided he
could do so with the approbation of his commanding
officer.
On the suggestion of Colonel REID,

Mr. F. MATJLE consented to alter the clause from
" for a further term not exceeding eleven years" to " for
a further period of eleven years."
Colonel WOOD was unwilling to divide the House.
He considered that his suggestion was one which would
prove advantageous to the soldier. He trusted the Hon.
Gentleman would adopt it. He, however, should not
divide upon it.
The amendment was then withdrawn, and the clause
agreed to.
Clauses 3 and 4, with a few verbal amendments, were
then passed.
On clause 5 being proposed,
Mr. GOULBURN suggested the necessity of retain-
ing the compulsion in the service of pensioners.

'Mr. F. MAULE replied that he li.ad reason to believe
that the prospect of the deferred pension was quite
sufficient to secure the attendance of the pensioners.
After some conversation between Mr. Goulburn, Sir Do
Lacy Evans and other Members, the clause was adopted,
as were also the remaining clauses of the Bill.
Major LAYARD said, that as the:whole of the clauses
had now been adopted by the House, he would take that
opportunity of expressing his regret that the advantage
of the Bill was not to be extended to those who are now
in the service of her Majosty. When he had first taken
up this subject he bad taken pains to ascertain the
injury of the short period of enlistment, and he was quite
assured, not only that the Bill would be beneficial, but
that it would be so beneficial, that, unle3s its influence
was extended, a great injustice would be done to the
men alreadylin the army. They had heard not only in that
House, but also in the other House of Parliament,
apprehensions expressed that the setting men at liberty
would be dangerous. But to this supposition he could
attach but very little value ; and since the introduction
of steam navigation, our sea-girt isle has been placed
ina very different position to that which it had lately held,
and he conceived that
,a great advantage would result
from the existence of a set of people who understood the
use of arms. As for the danger that was likely
to arise from the adherence of old soldiers to
carry out any factious or seditious design, he
thought that they were too well acquainted with the
utter futility of attempting to stand in a mob against re-
gular troops to do any such thing. For his own
part he should as soon think of attempting to
fly as to join a mob in the face of regular troops.
He hoped, therefore, that the House would not refuse to
give a ray of hope to those veterans who require the
light of hope to cheer them in their rugged way along
the chequered path of life.
Sir DE LACY EVANS seconded the clause. _

Mr. FOX MAI:LE opposed the introduction of the
clause. The Crown already possessed the power to
terminate at any time it thought proper the en-
gagements of the soldiers ; and fur this reason
he considered the insertion of the clause would be
wholly unnecessary. The Government proposed to ex-
tend the benefits of the measure to the present army, but
he did not think it would be politic now to state to what
extent the measure would be adopted. In every case the
soldier had ample opportunities to make a statement of
his grievances to the authorities, and he had no doubt, that
if it was considered as a grie►ance that they were com-
pelled to continue in the army for a longer period than
ten years, while fresh soldiers were limited to ten years,
that the statements of such grievances would be fully at-
tend©d to.

Sir DE L. EVANS said that after the statement of
the Right Hon. Member the Secretary at War, he felt it
his duty to state his opinion, that it was desirable for the
Hon. and Gallant Member to withdraw his clause.
Colonel LINDSAY had the fullest confidence in the
Government with regard to this clause, and had no ob.
lection to leave the matter entirely in their hands.
Major LAYARD then withdrew his clause.
The House then resumed, the Chairman reported pro-
grrsg. and the report was ordered to be brought up on
Monday, theFlE2tvhEoßf April.
HARBOURS, DOCKS, AND PIERS CLAUSES
(IRELAND) BILL.

BILL.
PORTLAND HARBOUR OF REFUGE AND