The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-13 00:00:00

but he was '
.of opinion
that
trdt
the
ef
classguardians
fr e
lanh:"4t hbees e guardians were to be
chosen, did not equal the class horn 7biels they were chosen in
England, and they might therefore exercr'S'e a strong influence
over the landlord by the terror of the starving multitude. He
believed that the area of taxation under the present Bill was
too large, and he knew that many Irish gentlemen would have
corre forward before to improve their lands, if the areahad been
smaller. He begged the k overtment not to inerease that area.
The change which was to be introduced was by altering the
territorial divisions from what they were. He would propose
that they should strike out the 10th cluuse altogether, and
leave those divisions as they then stood. In order tdsshow the
Noble Lord how necessary it would be to reconsider this act
with referenee to the electoral divisions, he would refer to the
present state of territorial division. There were unions, con-
taining 507,154 acres, and varying down to 38,t)00 acres.
There were electoral divisions from 570,154 acres, to 38,000
acres, and there were townie/Ids from 145,598 acres, down to
532. These varied from 131,000 in population to 300 ; that
amount the Boards of Guardians had the power of uniting into
one district, and only one Board in all Ireland had availed
themselves of that power. If the Noble Lord was willing to
leave these evils to the decision of the Poor Law Commission-
ers, to the decision of the Board of Guardians, or even to the
judgement of those who had property in Ireland, he would be
satisfied, but if he persisted in going against the Poor-law
Commissioner, the responsibility would be upon his own head.
In the parishes of England, generally, a considerable quantity
of the money which was used for the poor was used for the
Irish, and yet no complaints were made; for all that was
asked was, that each landowner should bear his share in the
expenses. That was the principle of the English poor-law,
and it was one which could not fail to excite considerable satis-
faction in Ireland. Let them take, if they chose, a national
rate; but between that and such a plan as he proposed there
was no medium. There were 238,000 acres in the union of
Skibereen, and there the system of union rating had been tried
and failed. But they talked of the union-at large system :on
this there was a case which was decisive on the
point. In the union of Skerrat, in the county
of Clare this system hod been tried, and it had been found that
while the union rate was 174,0001., the electoral division rate
was but 114,0J0/. This was the only instance in which the
principle proposed now to be extended to all Ireland had been
tried, and it had proved a failure. This being the case, he
wished the Government joy of the course they proposed to
take. If they abandoned the electoral division rate system, let
them extend the system, pay the expense of the workhouses
out of the consolidated fund, and take all the rates themselves,
raised by a national impost. This would be a better course
than the one now proposed. They were about extending a
poor-law to Ireland in a season of great distress, and
they should be aware lest they not only injured the
poor, but ruined the gentry of Ireland by the course proposed.
At present, therefore, all he asked was for the Government to
strike out the tenth clause of the Bill, and leave the principles
contained in it to be treated as a whole. If the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government, did not attend to these sugges-
tions, he (Mr. Stafford O'Brien) thought he would disappoint
many of those on whom he mainly relied for Suppert.
Mr. P. SCROPE wished to occupy the House but a short
time on one or two points, especially that relating to out-door
relief. With respect to rating, he admitted that it was a diffi-
cult question at present. Perhaps, under the circumstances,
a system of estate rating would be the best, as it would stimu-
late the proprietors to do everything in their power to employ
the labourers under them. With reference to the great
question of out-door relief, he must express his deep and heart-
felt tharas to the Noble Lord, for the great and noble senti-
ments which he had expressed that night: a speech that would
find an,echo in the breast of the people of England generally.
—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Scrope) was firmly convinced that
nut-door relief could not fora day, with safety, be suspended in
England; and further, he did not think this country would have
ever reached its present state of prosperity, unless by such a
poor-law as had been in operation. England, before the en
actment of this law, was a kind of Tipperary; person and
property were not secure; but the wise and good men of the
time of Elizabeth provided an efficient remedy in the law for
the relief of the able-bodied poor which they enacted. Let
the same kind of law be extended to Ireland, and he felt sure
that agrarian outrage and its attendant evils would soon cease.
With regard to the Bill before the House, he must say that its
provisions did not come up to the principle stated in the address
of the Noble Lord. He had always considered that the ques-
tion was as much an English as an Irish question. It was in-
dispensably
necessary, even to the welfare of the English
people, that the condition of the people of Ire-
sand should be raised from its present dr grading level.
I'he present mode of relief in Ireland tended to crowd the
labour market of this country, to contaminate, by their misery
and squalid wretchedness, the condition of the English poor,
compete with them for employment, and finally to raise the
amount of the poors' rates of this country. It might be said
that so long as the union existed between the two countries,
this influx of Irish paupers could not be prevented. It was,
then, so much the more necessary that the law should be al-
tered so as to afford to the Irish people the means of support in
their own country, and thus prevent them becoming chargeable
to this country. If the laws of the two countries were equal-
ized the people of this country could not complain of the mi-
gration and permanent settlement of the Irish paupers. He
mentioned the other night some facts tending to show that an
immense system of depopulation was going on in Ireland, and
that the landlords of that country were making all possible
use of the process of ejectment to clear their es-
tates, and thereby rid themselves of the burden
of supporting them. The authorities of Liverpool
.had sent
over some persons to inquire into the real cause of the immense
emigration which was continually going on. Those persons
formed immense crowds, travelling in the direction of England,
and from them those persons learned that the reason the par-
ties were coming over to England was, that they believed that
it was the law in England that no person should starve. To
such an extent was this emigration going on, that he had no
doubt in a short time upwards of one million of those Irish
paupers would be able to obtain a permanent settlement in
this country under the provisions of the Po 'r-law Settlement
Act, passed in the last session of Parliament. He hoped,
therefore, that, in the proposed measure for Ireland, the same
provisions should be made that existed in this country, and
that, in this respect atleast, the two countries should be placed
upon an equal footing. He believed that such a
measure, so for from proving an injury to
Ireland, would be the cause of raising that country
from its present degraded and miserable condition. He hoped
that the Noble Lord would reconsider his proposition, not to
afford any out-door relief until such times as the workhouses
were full. He was supported in his view that it was necessary
to afford out-door relief by several Irish landlords and Members
on both sides of the House. And a work published by Mr.
Shafto Adair, most strongly recommended a system of out-
door relief. And he (Mr. P. Scrope) believed that any poor-
law would be perfectly nugatory which did not provide a system
of relief equally to the able-bodied and infirm destitute.
Mr. GREGORY said that the Hon. Member for Stroud
had hitherto had great vantage ground to go upon, for, both by
his voice and pen, he kad tried to distinguish himself ass friend
to suffering humanity. But they, on that side of the
House, who held that the amelioration of the condition
of the Irish people was a work of time, and was not to
to be accomplished by a hastily considered measure—they who
looked beneath the surface for the cause of the evils which
afflicted Ireland, they were stigmatised as hard-hearted land-
lords, 'or flinty political economists. He was no admirer of
the measure which was intended to be intro uced by her Ma-
jesty's Government, for, in his opinion, its effect would be to
swallow up Irish property ; and, however much some Gentle-
men in that House might. desire to see such a consummation
he (Mr. Gregory) considered that it would be found that the'
result would add only a darker
. shade to misery, which was but
too sombre already. Let him a-k Hon. Gentlemen opposite,
what was the relief which. had been extended to many
(Hear, hear.) If they
dis-
tricts—what had. the setting the labouring population to work
e.
entail upon themselves all
done in mitigation of the evil—almost nothing. And now
. They would degrade the they had another of the Noble Lord's measures—a measure
which would be found even more ineffectual than those
a willing degradation—a degradation so
abject, that he would learn to scorn his industrious and more
honest neighbour. W hen the poor-law was imposed upon
pea-
santtpthhae: passed
tvdei shpaoiadtfu the
petr gone
osemlYd—p poor-law. roe -fu. ardyv
England it was guarded by the strictest provisions. Under
these restrictions the people were protected from injury. But
under the resolutions proposed by the Noble Lord it was pro-
posedlvhee ttoha poor-law give a poor-law to Ireland without those protections.
was proposed the population of a square
mile in Ireland was 300, while that of England was only 250
while that of Wales was 210, and that of Scotland was 200.,
Did the Noble Lord remember that Ireland had 2,500,000 of
paupers, to whom this assistance was to be rendered, and the
whole rental of the island was only 11,000,000 i., and the sum
to be deducted for the relief of the paupers was 2,375,0`,0!.?
There were three causes which would render this motion ino-
perative, for the whole of the resources would not suffice for that
relief. These three causes were, in the first place, the want of
the means; the second was the want of floating capital ; and
the third was the want of the
if
means of demand for the em-
ployment of this capital, even it were in active employment.
He then would argue that there were no means of bringing
these appliances into play. ,
Mr. DILLON BRO WNE said the Hon. Member who had
just sat down had asserted that the measures proposed by the
Government were not sufficient for the purpose for which they
had been introduced. To a certain degree he agreed with
him, for these measures were not calculated to meet the whole
of the exigency, and he thought that when their was absolute
destitution there was an absolute claim to relief. The Govern-
ment would, in fact, have to come down next year, and ask for
further assistance, for they would have to give assistance in
proportion to the want of the employment of industry, and the
landlords would say that they had better give a shilling for the-
support of the poor rather than give it to the casual poor who
were dependent for relief. At the present moment there were
upwards of bOO,OOO persons holding more than one acre and less
than five. Now, the person holding five acres was much worse
off than those holding one acre. There was one acre employed
in potatoes and two in oats, but the produce of those acres
was all lost in the subsistence of the people. The system pur..
sued in Ireland was the most injurious, the most grinding, the
most distressing of any in Europe, and this was owing to the
rack-rent that was drawn from the land. He would take the
case of Mr. Beasy, where the tenants were ejected because
they could not pay their rents, and why could they not 2—why,
because when those tenants offered to pay their rents they could
not pay their rates. Then take the case of Lord Lucan'a
estate. The Noble Earl had endeavoured to justify himself
from the charges which had been brought against him, but it
was all in vain. He (Mr. Dillon Browne) knew the county of
Mayo well, and he could say that the Earl of Lucan had not
spent one shilling in the improvement of his property.
But what was the course pursued? Why, he said, that let the
tenants reclaim the waste lands, and then they
.should have a
lease for their holdings. The whole of the evils, in fact, arose
from the system of letting lands in Ireland. In the county of
Mayo there were 50,000 acres which rendered no Teton, to the
poor-rates, and how was that return to be obtained ? Cer-
tainly not under the present system. He had then another ob-
jection to the choice of guardians, for, in one place in the
county of Mayo they were paying tenpence for the expenses,
and twopence only for the support of the poor in the district.
He deeply lamented that the Government had taken the
electoral division, for he was desirous that they should have
taken the territorial divisions proposed by the Hon. Mem-
ber for Northampton (Mr. S. O'Brien.) He was himself an
electoral guardian, and the Noble Lord had been the means
of preventing his becoming an ex- yficio guardian ; and from
the knowledge which he had gained in that capacity, he deeply
regretted that the House hail not adopted the system for
reclaiming the waste lands of Ireland. He thought that the
English Members would have a right to complain if the Irish
Members did not, under ordinary circumstances, provide for
their people.

. .
Mr. BATESON gave the present Government credit for
having the best possible intention towards Ireland, and he
freely admitted that they had shown every desire to ameliorate
the present distressing condition of its pet;ple. still there ap-
peared to be some undercurrent at work, which prevented
them from carrying their good intentions into effect. He
agreed with his Hon. Friend the Member for Dublin, that the
proposal for out-door relief was highly objectionable. It would
encourage idleness, and reduce Ireland to one large union, with
the Prime Minister of England for the head relieving officer.
It would have the effect of stopping improvement, and render
neutral the beneficial provisions of the Bill. It would feed the
idle at the expense of the industrious and confound the good
with the bad. He was quite ready to give his consent to any
proposal for increasing the accommodation of the union work-
houses of Ireland, but he must protest altogether against out-
door relief. He was an advocate for electoral divisions, making

every parish liable for the support of its own poor, and
depend upon lt, sooner or later, this principle would

have to be adopted. Before he sat down he must express his
regret that Government had proposed no plan of emigration
It would have been much better had they extended the powers
of boards of guardians for encouraging emigration, than wast-
ing the time and money of the public upon plans which had
long since been exploded. In the absence of these additional
powers, many small farmers, now anxious to try their fortune
abroad, would be thrown upon the perse.t_ a funds for subsist-
ence, and he hoped the sesele r tenald not close without
Government corning fete-seri wit lan extt nsive emigration
scheme for the re' a lc (toe people of Ireland, whose present
condition vas eze.st abject and distressing.—( Cheers.) Unless
Government took some step ( f that nature, Ireland would ere
lung become, a huge mass of misery and destitution.—(Hear.)
Sir W. Al OLES WORTH said the question for the considera-
tion of the House was one of so much importance not only to
Ireland, but also to Great Britain, that he could not content
himself with merely saving that he concurred generally in the
views of the Noble Lord the Member for the city of London,
but must ask permission to state his opinion upon the subject.
The question for the consideration of the House was, whet her
the present Irish poor-law ought to be amended, and whether
out. door relief should or should not be established, and, if it
should he esablished, to what class of paupers should it be
applied? Now, let him ask the House what was the object of
the poor• law. According to the report of the Commission ap-
pointed to inquire into the expediency of improving or extend-
ing it, the object was to make provision for the prior
against starvation, and, in doing so, to attemp
to put an end to agrarian outrages in Ireland.
It was expected that such a s)steni of Irish Poor-laws would
have put an end to vagrancy, and would have prevented most
of the idleness and intemperance of the people. Other not les-
important results were also anticipated; and as to the improve-
ment of the soil, and the flowing of capital in o the country, what
had been the reach? Had agrarian outrages diminished, or
had the people become more industrious or more
temperate ? No ; they had not ; as the population,
of Ireland, but for the aid of this country, would
be carried off by starvation. It was clear, therefore, that the
anticipations which were held out at the passing of the poor
law had not been realised, and that new and more stringent
measures were absolutely necessary for the improvement of
Ireland. From a return made up to Lady-day 1845, it ap-
peared that there were 113 unions in Ireland, and that the po-
pulation which it contained was 7,500,000. In the course
of the quarter ending Lady-day 1845, 112,0i)0, or 24 in ( very
1,000, received relief; during the same period there were 585
unions in England and Wales, the population of which was
13,250,000, out of whom 1,250,000 received relief, or 92 in
every 1,000; the expense in Ireland being 9, d. a head.
and in England tis. Oil. ; consequently, every .man, woman,
and child, in England contributed eight times more towards
the relief of the poor than in Ireland ; but it appeared by the
returns which had been furnished, that at the present moment,
independently of the present workhouse accommodation, that
900,t,00 stand in need of relief out of the poor-rates. There-
tore, if there was as much real distress in England as in Ire-
land, it followed, as a matter of course, that the poor-law w
Ireland was most defective, and did not afford, from its improper
workirg, the indigent poor the relief which they stood so much
in need of. Under the present poor-law, no relief was
afforded to those whom the crowds in the workhouses pre-
vented from obtaining admission, so that those thus sit uated were
left to perish. The Irish workhouses would not contain more
than 100,000 at a time, but in the course of the year they
might afford accommodation to as many as 200,000; conse-
quently the workhouse accommudation was most defec-
tive and would remain so until they were increased,
fourfold. Mr. Nicholls, the Assistant Poor-law Commis-
sioner, stated that the workhouse accommodation required it.
England was for one per cent. of the population, but in addi-
tion to the in-door accommodation the Poor-law Commis-
sioners allowed out-door relief to widows, and wives who hae
been deserted by their husbands; orphans and children under
sixteen years of age, and they, even in cases of sickness, ex-
tended out-door relief to able-bodied persons, and 14t),00(
had received out-door relief in this way, the total number
during the quarter of the year, who had been so reliever;
being77o,ooo and the whole number for the year being about
1,000,000. However, if out-door relief was given in Ire
land, the workhouse accommodation would-be sufficient. What
he wished was, to see the poor-laws of England and Irelanc
assimilated, or that the persons who received out-door relief i
England might also receive it in Ireland. Then he appre-
hended that vagrancy and indolence, which the promoters 01
the old Irish poor-law stated that measure would remove.
would be greatly diminished, and great benefit, in hi.
opinion, would in consequence result to Irelaed
Men would not starve as long as they could possibly obtain food,
sooner than starve, they would wage war upon society. The
English people expected that as English property was bound to
sustain the poor, so Irish property should be made to support
its own poor. For these reasons, he would support an efficien,
poor-law, without which, distress. mendicancy, and agrarian
outrages, would never cease in Ireland. He did not think tha,
a poor-law would be a sufficient remedy, for subsidiary measure:
should be adopt, d. He considered that a plan of sytemati,
emigration should be adopt, d. There were two problems t,
be solved in Ireland, the one to induce the Irish labourer to
seek steady and continuous employment, and th,
other was to afford him employment. A vagrancy
law and a poor law, in his opinion, nigh'
be able to effect that object ; but it was necessary that the hist
proprietors should exert thems. Ives. The bankrupt landed.pro-
prietors were the greatest curse inflicted upon the country—
they were nothing else than bankrupts, as they were unable to
perform their duties whit h their property imposed upon then,
—they should be swept away. They should be treated as
bankrupt shopmen—their properties should be sold, and their
estates should pass into the hands of those who were able an
willing to discharge the duties of a landlord.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. SHAW said he could not help regretting that at a tame
when the Noble Lord should have gone into Committee upon
a measure beneficial to Ireland that he should have chosen to
open a discussion upon the state of Ireland. He considered
such a course peculiarly unfortunate, and he arose because the
Noble Lord had made reference to him as one of the deputa-
tion that hail waited upon him, and even had done him the
honour to refer to some observations which he had addressed ti
him, he would have been ready to have given du
Government every assistance, and although he wa-
never one of those who joined in the outcry against
the measures adopted for the state of Ireland, hi-
felt bound to say they were open to great objection
in consequence of the abuses which existed. He did not think
that the Government would be able to feed a nation, ar.d he
consequently, looked kindly at those measures, as they wen
caught at in a time of necessity. But he did object to this
permanent measure as introduced by the Noble Lord, and he
did not think that faith was kept with Ireland in this,
attempting to impose the system of out door relief. The
Nots.e Lord now advocated the measure contrary to his own re
corded conviction, when a member of Earl Grey's Government
What said one of the commissioners appointed by the Noblr
Lord's Government, and upon which the poor-law professes
to be founded ? He said that out-door relief in Ireland, well!,
introduce a principle, which had been felt as an evil in one
country, into another. The system of out-door relief was
only tolerated fur a time as an evil, and a necessary one, in
England, and it would be a mischievous precedent to intro
duce it into Ireland. It would induce a reliance for support
upon the rates, instead of upon individual industry. Thr
first report, which he found upon this subject, after the union
of England with Ireland, was in 1834, and it denounced the
principle of out-door relief as mischievous. (Hear, hear.)
[The Honourable Member proceeded to read extracts at
some length from the report condemning the practice
of out-door relief.] After the enactment of the
English poor-law in 1838, a Committee sat upon the
subject, and they reported that they concurred in former re-
ports of other Committees, condemning the practice of out-
door relief, and recommended that it should not be continuer
in operation. One of the reports of the Commissioners in
1824 asserted that the out-door relief debased the character o'
the labourer, and rendered the feeling between master axis
servant one of a most disagreeable character. It secures:
subsistence to all—equally to the idle and dissolute as to the
distressed but industrious workman. A report of a Committee
of the House of Lords also condemned the practice as one in-
jurious to the country; and from the evidence adduced or,
that Committee, he saw that it had been asserted that all the
evils produced in England by the poor-law in 300 years, would
be produced in Ireland in ten. Such were the opi-
nions the Noble Lord had challenged him to produce
The neat point on which the Noble Lord challenged him
was, that during the last twelve months he had interfered with
ordinary agricultural labour, and interfered with the produc
tion of food. He heard it daily from Ireland, that so demora-
lised were the people by the public works, that when the land-
lords offered them task work, by which they could earn lOs
per week, they preferred working on the publie roads, where
they could only earn ss. per week. I'he deputation which had
wain d upon the Noble Lord, and of which he (Mr. Shaw) was
member, had stated that there was no amount of in-door re-
lief which they were not prepared to submit to rather than
encourage the evils fostered by the system of out-door relief
The Noble Lord had said that he did not see the great diffi
culty with regard to the proportion of the population to the
property. In Mayo the population was 400,0e0, and the rate-
able property was 350,000. Was it possible, even
supposing that the whole land was given up to
the people that it would afford them maintenance.
He maintained that in such a district as he had named it would
be perfectly impossible to carry such a law as that proposed
into effect. The Government had taken advantage of the pre-
sent time, when Ireland was in great distress, and when grea,
prejudice was excited against the landlerds of Ireland, to in-
troduce the present question. And the difficulty was further
increased by the proceedings of the public press, and the dis-
cussions which had taken place in that House. The public
press especially had done every thing in its power to excite and
perpetuate this prejudice against the landlords of Ireland.
He would not have made reference to the press if
Le did not think that the feelings expressed by it were nor
participated in by a considerable portion of the Members of
this House. Both from the articles which had recently ap-
peared in the columns of the leading journals, as well as those
in many other newspapers, there was every evidence given that
nothing was left to induce them to misrepresent and prejudice
the proprietors of Ireland. (The Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man here read two extracts in illustration of what he had
stated.) All these circumstances had no doubt operated on the
Government to propose a measure with which, per-
haps they did not cordially agree; but they might
rest assured that if they succeeded in ruining the
Irish landlords, they would nevertheless still perpetuate the de-
gradation and misery of the people of Leland. It was well
known that let had ever been a consistent and honest opponent
of the repeal of the union, but if such a system of misrepresen-
tation and abuse against the landlords and people of Ireland was
to be continued, he might see reason to change his views,
even upon that question. He had it from undoubted authority
that not less than 200,0001. had been subscribed by Irish land-
lords since the beginning of this distress. This sum was inde-
pendent of the amounts expended about their own resi-
dences. He had hoped that this subject would have
been more temperately discussed, and he would not
endeavour, by any remarks of his, to add to the bitterness
which already existed. He would say in conclusion, however,
that he would feel it his duty to divide the House on the sub-
ject of out-door relief for the labouring poor in Ireland.
Mr. ELLICE said that the Honourable Member had
entered into a lengthened explanation of the evils under
which Irish landlords were labouring, and he quoted
extracts from certain public prints. conveying sentiments
which he was sure were not coincided in by any Member in
that house, or by any of the better disposed and thinking
classes of this country. The Hon. Gentleman had said, also,
that the whole course of Government legislation had been
adverse to Ireland. Surely, the Hon. Gentleman had for-
gotten that the proceedings of the House had been most
favourable to the country. Surely, he could not forget that
from the period of the Catht lie Emancipation Act, down to
that time, every measure affecting Ireland that had received
the sanction of that House, was for the purpose of remedying
some grievance or granting some boon. It was true, that
they did look with some degree of expectation, to see
that Irish landlords (lid their duty. They did look to find
that some effort would be made by them to prevent
the influx of pauperism which burdened Liverpool and the
other parts roost contiguous to the sister country. It Was not
necessary that they should go to Liverpool or the other parts of
the country, fur they would find in the districts of the
..
metro-
polis—in the neiehbourhood of Bethnal-green, and s,tmlar
s
localitie, abundant proofs of the social evils which existed in
Ireland.' The rates of those districts had been greatly raised
solely in consequence of the necessity under which they la.
boured of providing for the necessitous Irish poor. He thanked
and he was sure the country would thank. the Noble Lord for
the measure which he that evening had promised to bring for-
ward. From that measure he expected the greatest benefits to
accrue to Ireland. The small towns would have to follow the
example of the large towns. He would take the county of

Cork for instance, where he might be obliged to ruin a small
landlord in order to support the large proprietors, and he be-
lieved that it would he impossible to devise any measure that
was adapted to the general position of the country. He
would now allude to the question taken up by his Right lion.
Friend with respect to the poor-law as respected Scotland.
He quite agreed with his Right Hon. Friend the Member for
Dorsetshire, that such a law was necessary for Scotland. The
original position was the best possible for the introduction of a
poor-law for that country. Taking all the circumstances of
the case, he could not perceive the analogy of the cases.
According to the ancient custom of Scotland, the
able-bodied labourer was entitled to support, but that
support was to be given for the work which he rendered
and, therefore, the cases were decidedly different, but he be-
lieved that the Irish labourer, if he were induced by the offer
of sufficient reward, would have been glad to give the requi-
site exertion for the advantages which he obtained.
Sir 13. HALL rose amid !smith confusion, but was under-
stood to say, that he was quite aware of the effort that was to
be made on this question, though he was not prepared for the
epposition that was to be offered to the motion of the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government, nor was he at all aware
of the argument that was to be offered in con' raciiction to the
assertion of his Noble Friend, nor could he altogether assent
to the proposition that the Irish landlords were responsible for
all the distress that had occurree in Ireland. To this extent
he quite agreed with his lion. Friend the Member for Co-
ventry, hut he did not agree with the assertion that the time
for discussion had now arrivk d. lion. Gentlemen opposite
had asserted that the time had now come for this discussion,
but to this he could not assent, for when a Biel stood for the
second reading he quite believed that it was the season for dis-
cussion of the principle of the Bill, and that this was not
the time. He did not mean to make his observations übjec-
tionable to the Irish landlords, but was quite ready to allow
that what had occurred might be most distasteful to them at
the present moment, but he believed that afterwards they
would be most grateful for the assistance which had been ren-
dered. If he were to presume on the example of the Irish
landlords, he might adduce that of the Marquis of Lansdowne,
of Lord Portsmouth, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs,
and the Marquis of Donegal. But when he spoke
of the landlords of Ireland,. he did not mean to
say that they had not done their duty. Why then were such
statements made, and what were the charges that were made?
The lion. Gentleman had asked for his authorities, and he
assured him that before he sat down, he would live him the
authorities on which he made his allegations. He readily met
'he challenge which had been thrown out, and he did not
think that he should be doing his duty, unless he did meet that
challenge ; and, first of all he desired to meet the allegations
which had been made with respect to the conduct of the board
of guardians in Ireland. In doing this, he not only desired to
meet the case, which duty prescribed ; but he wished also, as
it was in truth a matter of importance, to consider
the feelings of the landlords of Ireland. He would now
show the House the grounds on which he was prepared to
..rove that the landlords had not done their duty to Ireland.
the chief ground of accusation against the landlords was, that
hey had not.backed the levying of the poor rates. If the Hon.
Gentleman would take the twelfth report of the Poor-law
Commissioners, he would find that there was the greatest diffi-
eulty in collecting the rates fur the relief of the poor, and es-
o: cially in Queen's county anti the county of Roscommon, and
more particularly in the parishes of Castlereagh and Westport,
tnd those which were adjoining. In the union of Tuam the
euardiaes showed cause against a writ of mandamus, and the
court gave judgement against them. Notwithstanding this
judgment the guardians proceeded to collect a rate due in 1843.
Now he wished to show that there was a disinclination on the
part of boards of guardians to levy a rate for the poor.
fie would show that in several unions, although they had been
established since the 20th of July, 1841, and some of them
even as early as 1819 yet up to the sth of August, 1845, only
me rate had been levied. The Castlereagh union had levied
a rate of 46d. in the pound ; the unions of Cat low and Tuam
sd. in the pound. He thought that it would be only justice to
compare what had been done in Ireland with what had been
done in England. He would select some counties in England,
bearing the same proportion as other parts in Ireland. The
counties which he would refer to contained a population
of 3,154,485 souls. The annual income assessed to
'he pours'-rates was 13,553,836/. ; the sum raised
by poor's rates, was 1,169,378/. ; the number of paupers re-
lieved was 380,490, or about 9 per cent. of the population,
and the rates collected amounted to 8 per cent, on the annual
value of property. Now, with respect to Ireland, what was the
state of things? There were 130 unions in that country, with
population of 8,174,000; the annual income assessed to the
prior's rate was 13,204,2341. ; the amount levied for poor's
rates was 298.8131., or about 24 per cent. on
he value of the property ; the number of paupers relieved
amounted to 125,724, or about 16 per cent of the pepula-
tion. Now the result of this was, that the poor's rates in Eng-
'and amounted to eight per cent on the value of the property,
chile in Ireland it was only 2* per cent. The paupers
relieved in England was 9 per cent., and in Ireland
only IL- per cent. The Hon. and Learned Member for Cork
( Mr. D. O'Connell) had said on a former occasion that the
English Government were responsible for the lives of two and
t half millions of people in Ireland. He (Sir B. Hall) denied
that statement, and took occasion to express his opinion upon
the conduct of some of the Irish landlords. The Right Hon.
Gentleman was followed by the Right lion. Baronet the Mem-
ber for Mallow (Sir D Norreys) who said that it was unfair
to bring forward statements respecting Castlebar and other
unions and apply observations made upon these unions to the
whole of Ireland. They were exceptions to the general rule
as relating to the poor-laws in Ireland, and desired him
Sir B. Hall) to look to what was done in the
other 126 unions, and that it was only pandering
to the vitiated tastes of the British public to
dwell upon the conduct of the guardians of these particular
anions. lie had clone so on the present. occasion, and hoped
hat he had satisfied the House of the difference which existed
in respect to the poor-law in the two countries. He held in
his hand a report collected from the Commissioners appointed
•o inquire into the statistics of distress in the neighbourhood of
Mallow. He was sorry that the Right Hon. Member for
Mallow was not present, He would, however, make the
statements in order that they might go forth to the
world through the ordinary channels of information. The
return was dated the 7th of March, 1846, before
the great destitution which took place in the first year.
Now, he found in this report that the sheet contained sixty
families; and from the inquiries that had been made, it would
-eem that, with the exception of four, the heads were nut of
employment ; none had clothing at all, and only three had bed-
ling.—(Hear, hear.) In a neighbouring parish he found that
here were 207 families who were precisely in the same condi-
non. The statements he had made could be supported with
he testimony of several clergymen, who had come over from
Ireland to wait upon the Noble Lord at the head of the Go-
vernment to assure him of the desirability of establishing out-
door relief. These gentlemen wished hien to make some state-
ment upon the subject, but he stated that he would make no
statement to the House in reference to individuals unless he
etas assured of the authenticity of the information which had
been communicated to him on the subject.—( Hear, hear.)
lie, therefore, proposed now to quote from the report of a com-
mittee appointed to consider the subject, and he found from
hat report that one of the witnesses was asked, " Do the land-
oeds of the district interest themselves in the improvement of
farming in your district?" The witness's reply was, " No inte-
rest whatever, except getting their rent."—( Cheers ) Another
eitness added, " That landlords seldom or never gave assist-
ince to the tenants," while the answer of another landlord
was that he " Did not want any tenant who wanted anything
from him." Now, let them see what the contributions of the
andlords bad been towards relieving the prevailing distress in
he county of Mallow, deducting the subscriptions that had
been received from one liberal landlord, the contributions did
not amount to more than 95/. ; one landlord,who was receiving
',LOON. a year ft ern the county, had only contributed 21., while
soother, who received 8,000/. a year harm the district, had only
subscribed 51. The lion. Gentleman then went on to quote a
number of other details and documents. but the lion. Member
lelivered himself on this, as well as in other parts of his speech,
m indistinctly, that it was impossible minutely to follow his
datements. The lion. Member added that he was happy to
say that he had been furnished with a strong anti pleasing
eontrast to the instances he had already given. It was the
ease of a gentleman who, although he bad only a mortgage
.1 1,000/. in the county, had subscribed 90/. towards alle-
viating the distress of the distrist, while the servant of the gen-
leman, an officer in the army who distinguished himself in the
Peninsular war, with the view of setting an example to the
.wealthy inhabitants of the district subscribed, 25/. The Hon.
Member then read several other documents to the same effect.
A gentleman with 6,0001. a year gave 15/. for the relief of the
poor in his district. This was not a single case, there were
many others, where the possessors of large property
were not even equally liberal. The Hon. Member then read
several extracts from letters, showing the dreadful destitution
which prevailed in the country. He also referred to reports
laid on former occasions on the table of the House, and con-
tinued thus :—That was the opinion entertained with respect
to the conduct of the Irish landlords in 1723. But what was
the opinion of the Rev. Dr. Doyle as to the conduct of Irish
landlords in 1820-100 years after? The Hon. Gentleman
then read the opinion to which he referred. It stated that many
if the Irish landlords had no means of judging of the
condition of their country except through their agents, and that
many of those who lived in the country were not :n a condition
to make the sacrifices that were required of them. They were
compelled, in consequence of the poverty of their tenants, to
-üblivide their land, and to reap, in consequence, but meagre
erofits from it. But what said Dr. Doyle with respect to the
tt squireens ?" He salt , " They seldom possessed much property,
but nevertheless they managed to obtain an income of a few
hundreds a year."—( Hear, hear.) He characterised them in
teneral terms "as the scourge of Ireland, as igno•
rant, bigoted, extremely dishonest, and in the habit
of telling all manner of falsehoods, but in such a
,ray as to carry with them the resemblance of truth."—
(`• Hear," and laughter.) Of course he (Sir B. Hall)
could not be considered answerable for these statements. He
went on to state " that they could not be trusted with one's
purse, and that few of them valued the sanctity of an oath."
lie further added, that they were in the habit of" fomenting re-
ligious animosities, ready to impose taxes, and to share in them;"
and then he summed up the conduct of these persons by say-
ing, " without exaggeration they were the slave-drivers of
Ireland, and much resembled those of the same class in Ben

muda."—(" Hear, hear," and" Oh, oh.") Well, all he could say
was, that that was the opinion entertained by one of their own
countrymen of themselves.
Mr. D. CALLAGHAN—Yes; but those are "squireens."
Sir B. HALL said unfortunately the squireens were a
very large class, but from information he had received he
was not inclined to believe that they were the worst landlords.
The Hen. and Learned Gentleman the Recorder rif Dublin
( Mr. Shaw) stated that that was not the proper time to
bring forward this question ; but what response had he made
to the challenge of the Noble Lord at the head of the Go-
vernment, when he stated, " If you do not approve of my pro-
position, why don't you devise a better remedy ?"—( Hear,
hear.) It appeared that various parties had lately met
for the purpose of discussing who was to maintain
the poor, and out of what funds.—(Bear, hear.) The
Repeal Association and the " Irish party," which seemed to
have very much dissolved of late, landlords at Fermoy, and
the Roman Catholic minister of two dioceses, had met and
discussed the subject, as also had the grand jury of the county
of Westmeath, who passed various resolteions, one of which
he would bring before the House. But great differences of
opinion prevailed on the subject amongst the members of the
Repeal Association.—(Hear, hear.) For instance, the
Honourable Member for Mayo said, the only fault
he found with it was that it did not go
far enough. He always understood that that association consi-
de• ed the repeal of the union to be the only panacea for the
ids of Ireland; but he remembered perfectly well that the
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Cork (Mr. O'Connell) on
the motion for going into Committee on the existing Irish poor-
law, moved that they should not go into Committee until that
day three months; then again the Hon. Gentleman the
Alember for Kilkenny (Mr. J. O'Connell) said he should
support the Bill, but in writing to "My dear Ray,"
he said " he objected to it exceedingly ; but if he entertained
this opinion, would it not be more manly, more straightforward,
to come forward and so express himself ?—( Hear. ) They said
the measure was pressed upon them by the British Govern-
mot, and that they must accept it. But ho (Sir B. Hall)
is holly differed with them—it was not pressed upon them as a
burden which they ought not to bear, and which would press
heavil, upon them, as they were simply called upon to do what
Englishmen had done for years, namely, to sup-
port their own countrymen wh-n reduced to poverty.
But he would tell the Hon. Gentleman that if he did give his
support. and if he did vote for tf e measure, he ought to exert
all the influence which he possessed in Ireland to make the law
work as et ciently as its warmest supporters would desiro. He t