The Sun.
London, England, 1841-08-27 00:00:00

THE PROCEEDINGS 'OF THE

- -
MANCHESTER CONFERENCE VINDICATED.
TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN.
Sln—Tbe General Synod convoked at Manchester for
the consideration of our commercial economy, as it affects
the.prisent position of this country, is pregnant with im-
portant
,matter to all classes with respect to our home,
colonial, or foreign relations. That it should therefore
have excited the animadversions of the Times, and have
provoked its malevolence, can in no wise be a matter of
astonishment to those who habitually watch the arbi-
trary conduct and peremptory fiat of that usually able,
but wayward and mischievous Journal.
A coarse and Witless report of the week's proceed-
tags has been furnished at intervals by their own
accredited Correspondent, as instinct with vulgar in-
ference as it is indifferently inclined to facts,
and the whole. preamble exhibits a malicious pre-
determination to misrepresent or censure what, in
its utmost efforts, it could not repress. Every
calumnious observation that a corrupt ingenuity could
invent, or a wilful misapprehension supply, has been re-
sorted to to impugn the consideration of a subject the bread
taxers dare not engage in, and to stifle the utterance of
truths it is their policy to decry and condemn. All this,
I trust, will be in vain. The character of the meeting—
the weight, situations, and influences of its participants—
will all tend to give at once a celebrity to the proceed-
ings, calculated to strike deeply into the hearts of inte-
rested millions and to put to defiance the low vitupera-
tion of a Journal set apart for no other purpose than as
a hreling to oppose every thing that has a single ele-
ment of popular prosperity in it ; of course, to the nar-
row interests of its proprietors, or interfering in even
the outer and more collateral possessions of a turgid and
luiurious aristocracy.
The time, however, I believe to be fast approaching
When those social enormities will be destroyed, when the
solicitation of thousands for relief to the common wants
of nature will be accompanied by a portentious reserva-
tion-of outraged feeling, which, under the pressure of
famine, may break out into resistance, and demand that,
in the force of their desperation, which has been denied
to them in the fullness of their distress.

The frequent national appeals—aye, the very season
itself—seems almost to invoke an abrogation of these
most iniquitous Corn-laws : the aggregated testimony
of their =policy from different countries, the biogra-
phical records of all great political economists of every
time and clime, are fraught with memorable objurgations
against any restrictive imposts upon food for the people,
and it is only for the puisne and pseudo economists of
to-day in the sustenance of their memorial and other
privileges, to project laws, which, by keeping up the
price of 'land, may hand down a crescent and improving
rent roll to tfieir heirs by primogeniture, with a con-
temporaneous security, that sinecures, or offices of
small need and great profits, are in store for the junior
branches when they require them, and all this whilst the
surrounding poor are experiencing present beggary, and
"Hoe so long deferred " as indeed to " make the
heart sick."
The state of the poor is in every way frightfuL One
of the speakers at the meeting relates a. conversation
with passing agricultural labourers, several of whom
could not tell the price of meat per lb.; another, that he
had not tasted animal food for two years, by
reason of his great poverty; a third, the father of six
children, that his family and himself lived for the most
Part on potatoes, rendering the vegetable succulent by
"drinking part of the water they were boiled in !" What
a picture is here of miserable expedients to preserve life,
and all the result clear to a demonstration of an iniqui-
tous law, made for the support of a small section of men,
and the increase of a wealth already monstrous to an
enormity. And all this is to be endured ! whilst Ame-
rica, with nearly her two millions of acres of corn• grow-
ing.land, is ready and willing to barter the produce of
her superfluities ibrthecotton fabrics of Manchester, and
the mechanical commodities of Birmingham and Sheffield ;
but in consequence of restriction on one article of the inter-
change, this advantage is withheld,—the channels of im-
portation are closed, and, from the manufacturer to the
operative, they are on the road to beggary, without pros-
Peet of improvement.
Let those, therefore, who heartlessly scoff at the want
of national prosperity, and declare instances of indivi-
dual destitution to be only the fate of things in great
countries-+the influxes and the reflexes of the tide of
prosperity exciting either natural advantage or popular
discontent,—let them learn to be wise in time, and re-
flect upon the consequences of a bad harvest, greater
scarcity of food, increased penury, and perishing fami-
lies, where abundance should only be ; and all
this with the growing intelligence of a people
Well informed of the causes of their gnawing
Indigence and independent of the thraldom and vassalage
of the landowner, who can only lord it over a few serfs,
Whom not half a century of disseminated useful instruc-
tion has served to manumit them from feudalism, or
strike off the prejudices of our almost primative ignorance
of their own privileges as intellectual and responsible
beings. Let such scoffers, I say, beware of placing any trust
upon so hollow a philosophy. Above all, let them keep
their eyes steadily upon the cause, progress, and matu-
rity of the French Revolution, and bear in mind that,
however memorable for unrestrained atrocities those
times were—however deplorable to the philanthropist
the sacrifice of life and property—those times form a
close and flowing prototype of our own in the arrogance
and sympathetic disregard of her " ancient regime until
it grew past popular endurance—and that, if the general
resentment had stayed at the almost entire deportation
of an aristocracy, too oppressive to govern, and too re-
niorseless to be kind, historians might have represented
the French Revolution as the result of a deprecated but
I%perative resistance to powers which had outgrown
themselves, and by giant encroachments had become the
scourge of the nation to which they belonged, the spoiler
tirevery political and civil prerogative, and the wanton
contemners of all the reasonable obligations from man to
titan, like distant clouds that look dark upon the ho-
rizon, and are hurryinc, up by the tempest to the me-
ridian ere they burst—lawful constraint will be fomented
by the agitation of the political hurricane into lawless
rebellion, and the flood-gates of natural resentment
once let loose, it will be well if that merciless oligarchy
—the people's rulers—be not engulphed irrecoverably in
the deluge, and become a warning and monumental
record of national immolation, to the misdoers of suc-
ceeding times. Yours, respectfully,
Liverpool, Aug. 23, 1841. ALCIBIADES.

INsoLVENT DEBTORS' COURT.

TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN.

Stn-Litis high time that public atention should be
awakened to the constitution and practice of the In-
solvent Debtors' Court. In each respect it appears to
9le to be peculiarly defective, and to call for an imme-
diate legislative remedy. The subject is one of great
importance to both creditors and debtors, to whom the
decisions of the Court are too often equally unsatisfac-
tory. The predominance of the agency of evil over that
(,)E good is strikingly exemplified in its proceedings.
Numerous instances might be adduced in support of this
proposition, but then they would encroach too much on
Your valuable space.
The Insolvent Debtors' Court can be regarded only in
the light of a Court of Equity, and ought to be governed
upon principles analogous to those of other Courts of
equity. But it is tied down and fettered by the pro-
visions of a Special Act of Parliament. It is true there
is what is termed the "Discretionary Clause," * which
gives the Commissioners greater latitude, but under
Which injustice is as often done as justice. No man can
Possibly divine, when an insolvent steps into that Court,
When the issue of his case may be. The probability
is, the greater the knave, the greater the chance of es-
cape. An honest debtor cannot be certain he will not be
remanded ; and a rogue has many facilities to assist him
getting off. In many cases, he has only to swear
tastily, and he walks out a free man. My experience,
at least has taught me that such is too generally the fact.
If I were usked how the Court works, I should re-
Ply, in the words of one of the Grave-diggers in Ham-
let, ie., "It does well for those who do ill." Few per-
t's:du could sit in that Court for a single day, without
'lcing struck by its anomalies and inconsistencies.
These are frequently particularly observable in Bail
eases. I submit that the duty of the Court on those
occasions is simply to inquire into the sufficiency of the
bail tendered. It has no right to dip into the merits of
the case, and to prejudge it. It has no right to'antici-
Pate what an Insolvent's case may be merely from a
lg:anee at the schedule. Nor is it justified in interposing
bunnecessary obstacles to the admission of bail. Now, I
have known the Court to be guilty of all those acts ;
I have known a case in which the Insolvent, although
the hail was acknowledged to be unexceptionable,
luought up three times before he was discharged, upon
the most frivolous pretext, for no other apparent object
Ina to increase the expenses, or to gratify the caprice
'off the Chief Commissioner, by whom the case in ques-
tion orsA heard.
The chW characteristic of the Insolvent Debtors'
Court seems to me to consist in giving impunity to fraud
and discouragement to honest poverty. Not that such is
invariably the case—if it were the Conrt would be a
c''lorNO nuisance than it actually is—but this is its general
feature. It is notorious that the most flagrant delin-
quents freqtunttly escape, laughing in their sleeves at
their own dexterfty ; while artless, unsophisticated, well-
nusning, but unfortauste debtors, as often come under
the ban of the Court. if sn insolvent be opposed, and a
.1 case," as it is termed, be ma& opt against him, no
Matter however trivial or insignificallt t may be, no
matter how vindictive may be the motives, or animus of
the opposing creditor, still it is a " ease,"
happy insolvent is liable to a remand for any period not
and the ma-
exceeding three years, to be determined by the humour
of the Court, under the discretionary clause.
As an instance of the severity sometimes exercised
under this clause (or clauses) it may be mentioned that
it, is only a short time since an aged man, nearly seventy,
in an ill state of health, and who had been already in-
carcerated fora period of fourteen years, was adjudged
to a further imprisonment of two years, a judgment
which will probably prove equivalent to confinement for
life. The case was certainly a bad one, but not worse
than many others, in which insolvents have been either
discharged altogether, or subjected to a much lighter re-
wand ; and the advanced age and ill-health of this insol-
vent might surely have pleaded in favour of a judgment
less severe.
Ido not impute corrupt or improper motives to the
Commissioners ; but it is quite evident that younger and
!kb:we vigorous intellects are required to conduct the
aUsiness of that Court ; and I have seen cases in which it
'` as difficult to divest oneself of a belief that the Court
ht.d been warped by an undue bias. The purity of our
14 al Courts should be like that of Cwsar's wife, not only
in suspected, but above suspicion.
There is one other point to which I must allude,
"Pecially as I consider it, perhaps, the most important
Pm rt of the whole subject. Whatever abuses may pre-
'vil, whatever grievances may exist, under the jurisdic-
ti, of the Court, there is no redress—there is no appeal
rem its decision. From all other Courts an appeal is
si Owed to a superior tribunal, up to that of the Privy
Ce or House of Lords ; and why should there not
he the asnio right of Aping from the Insolvent Debtors'

Court, ? Can any satisfactory solution be given to this

quesiOn ? I fear not. SCRUTATOR.
* It is generally. supposed that there is only one discre-
tionary clause. It is always spoken of as the discretionary
clause ; but, in point of fact, there are three clauses, all of
which may, with equal propriety, be so called—namely, clauses
76, 77, and 78. The first of these limits the terms of impri-
sonment to six months, the third to two years, and the inter-
mediate one to three years. All these clauses might have been
easily incorporated in one ; but this is only a solitary specimen
of the extreme clumsiness with which the Act has been framed.

SPIRIT of the PUBLIC JOURNALS.
(FROM THE DAILY PAPERS OF YESTERDAY.)
GLOBE.—The reports of the morning are anything
but favourable to Sir R. Peel's prospects of success, in his
efforts to preserve the heterogeneous elements which con-
stitute what is called his party in a state of apparent cohe-
sion : as to positive union, the thing is too unnatural to be
regarded as possible. The Duke of Buckingham, " the
Farmers' Friend," it is now pretty well understood, is
to be cast aside as impracticable. His Grace has re-
fused his assent to any change in the Corn-laws ; and
protests against the deception practised upon the agri-
cultural interest, now a change in those laws is intimated
to be essential to preserve the commercial interests from.
embarrassment, and to satisfy the country—even by those
who were among the foremost to condemn the exist; ng
Government for proposing a similar change in the sys-
tem. The " last of the Plantagenets," and his double,
Sir Richard Vivian, may again seek their rural retreats,
and sigh over their abandoned Corn-laws, and
the irreclaimable perfidy of Sir Robert Peel. We hear
that tha wrath of the Duke is terrible, and his threaten-
ing denunciations fierce. The Duke of Beaufort
is also reported refractory, and talks of ven-
geance. Promises of the first vacant garters have been
made to each ; but these objects of desire have not
charms sufficient to calm the indignation of the dis -
appointed and deceived chiefs. The secret is out. The
influence of the impracticables was useful to aid the
moderates in scaling the walls of office ; but their intro-
duction to office would embarrass and eventually destroy
the party. They are to be thrown overboard. A few empty
honours are to be promised, in the hope of stopping their
clamorous complaints ; if they succeed, well ; if not, any
consequences must be hazarded, rather than the certainty
of the whole concern being blown up by the Ultra policy
they insist shall be adopted as the condition of their
support.
STANDARD.—We understand that there is little or
no doubt that the division on the amendment in the House
of Commons will take place to-night. The debate would
have terminated last night, but that it was discovored that
a number of the general supporters of the Melbourne
Administration had not. qualified, and the Government
naturally desired to make as strong a muster as possible
on their last appearance in an official capacity. We have
not learned whether the omission of this indispensable
Parliamentary form was accidental or intentional, but there
is a very prevalent rnmour that there are serious defections
from the Ministerial phalanx, more particularly as regards
their usual Irish adherents. Among the Members
who up to last night had not qualified, the names of
Mr. O'Connell and of the Irish Attorney-General
were mentioned ; the total number was estimated at
about twenty. There is no doubt, however, that this
omission will be remedied before the division takes
place, which in all probability will be to-night. It
behoves every Conservative to be at his post. It is un-
derstood to be the wish of her Majesty that the
Addresses from the two Houses of Parliament, in
answer to the Speech from the Throne, should
be presented on the same day. An intimation to
that effect has, we have heard. been conveyed to
the Conservative majority in the House of Lords,
and there is no doubt that their Lordships will make such
an arragement as to time as will enable the other branch
of the Legislature to lay their answer to the Royal com-
munication at the foot of the Throne on the same day
that their Lordships may select for that purpose.
COURIER.—The task of vindicating the conduct
of the Whig Cabinet throughout its devious career
was certainly a formidable one, and therefore, per-
haps, it is not much to be wondered at that expe-
rienced hands, as well as novice politicians, shauld have
preferred a discussion on free-trade crotchets, to a
defence of the Whig Cabinet. But, although the novelty
of Mr. Cobden's position may be some apology for his
laborious but resultless wanderings, for the extra-
vagance of his pointless declamation, and the abundant
display of his pu-poseless facts—the scrapings of offi-
cial tables—neither the Noble Lord the President of the
Council, nor the Right Honourable the President of
the Board of Trade can avail themselves of such an
apologetic plea for refusing to grapple with the question
raised in the amendment, or to accept the challenge
it so distinctly and unequivocally offered. From
such small fry as the Wards, the Cobdens, the
Crawfords, and the Bowrings, men of one idea,
and that neither profound nor brilliant, a rambling
incoherent discussion on the Corn-laws, and free-
trade projects in general, was to have been expected.
A miserable collection of isolated facts, gathered from
unsold pamphlets or unpublished speeches, and carefully
curtailed of their fair proportions, constitute the stock in
trade of these pretenders to political science. With facts
and figures, shaped after the true Procrustean fashion,
and tortured into a thread of forced agreement with
their preconceived notions and pet projects, they came
prepared to prove anything and everything ; to trace
the connexion of cause and effect between the Corn-laws
and every imaginable calamity ; to demonstrate the pre-
valence of universal distress, and at least satisfy them-
selves that the country is on the brink of confusion and
ruin.

NAVAL INTELLIGENCE.

(From the Brighton Gazelle.)

PORTSMOUTH, Aua. 25.-1-The Formidable, 84, and
Hercules, 72, at Chatham, arc ordered to be prepared for
commission.

Rear-Admiral Richard Thomas, C. 8., appointed to the
command in the Pacific, has left London for Plymouth,
to embark on board the Dublin, 50, for conveyance to
the Brazils. Mr. James Pinhorn, purser, is to accompany
the Rear-Admiral as secretary. Rear-Admiral Ross,
C. 8., will retnrn to England in the President frigate, and
his arrival may be looked for in December next.
The Wolverine, 16, Captain Tucker, is hourly ex-
pected from the west coast of Africa, to be paid off.
The utmost activity now prevails at the several naval
arsenals, the following ships having been commissioned :
—lllustrious, 72, Malabar, 72, Warspite, 50, Isis, 50,
Madagascar, 44, Cambrian, 36, Aigle, 24, and Harle-
quin 18. •
The Bittern, 16, Commander the lion. B. Cary, has
sailed for the South American station, proceeding in the
first instance to the Cape of Good Hope, to land des-
patches.
The Speedy cutter is commissioned by Lieut. George
Beaufoy.
The corvette Iris, 26, Captain Morse, arrived at As-
cension from England. last from the River Gambia,
on the 4th July, and as soon as refitted was to proceed
to the Cape to join the Andromache, 26, Capt. Baynes.
The Carysfort, 26, is daily expected from the Mediter-
ranean to be paid off.
The Electra corvette, 16, Commander Gosling, is to go
out to Spithead to-morrow, it is reported for the Medi-
terranean.
Captain R. Yates has taken the command of the
Pique, 36, at Sheerness, to convey out to the West
Indies the new Commander-in. Chief, Vice-Admiral Sir
Charles Adam, K.C.B. Captain E. Boxer, C. 8., ap-
pointed to succeed Commodore Douglas at Jamaica, will
also take passage in the Pique.
The Princess Charlotte, 110, has been docked, &c..,
preparatory to leaving the Port Admiral's flag-ship here,
as there is no doubt that the Queen, 110, will go to the
Mediterranean.
The Impregnable three-decker, 110, Captain Forrest,
C. 8., is the only ship at Spithead. She requires a con-
siderable number of hands to complete, and her depart-
ure is very uncertain.
IN HARBOUL—Queen Victory, Royal George yacht,
Excellent. Illustrious, Warspite, Madagascar, Electra,
Rapid, Echo, Samarang, and tenders.

The Aix-la-Chapelle Gazette relates the fol-
lowing melancholy instance of religious fanaticism. A Pro-
testant inhabitant of that city was married many years ago to
a Catholic, by whom he, had two children, who were edu-
cated in the Catholic faith. On the death of his wife he mar-
ried a Protestant, and from that hour endeavoured to convert
his children from the Catholic to the Protestant religion, but
could not succeed, and at length the relations of his wife in-
sisted on removing the children from his house. A few days
since, says this paper, tho father went to the house at which
his children were staying, and, after having endeavoured in
vain to induce his son to abandon the Catholic faith, he become
furious, and hanged him. The boy was soon afterwards dis-
covered and cut down, but in such a state, that little hope was
entertained of saving him. The father was arrested, and con-
veyed to prison.
A man named Belin was tried before the
Court of Assize at Paris, two days ago, for an assault
under the following circumstances. On March 30, a young
man knocked at the door of a person named Belin, employed
by the Stockbrokers at the Exchange, and finding, or rather
knowing beforehand, that he was not at home, gained entrance
under pretence of having a message. Getting Mme. Belin
into a room by herself, he seized her by the throat, and, draw-
ing a knife threatened with violent imprecations to murder
her if she did not give him all her money. She made so stout
a resistance that she dragged her assailant to the landing-place
and there called for assistance. Upon this the robber at-
tempted to make his escape. but was followed and brought
back. To the astonishment of Mme. Belin, who, during the
struggle had not recoguised him—he proved to be Paul Belin,
a nephew of her husband, scarcely twenty years of age, who
had been a long time discarded by his family for misconduct,
and only lately released from prison, where he had been con-
fined on a conviction of forgery. The circumstances of the
case were proved, and the prisoner acknowled his guilt, but at-
tributed it to the instigation of two malefactors with whom he
had made acquaintance in prison, and who, in fad, accompa-
nied him to his uncle's house, when he committed the assault,
but effected their escape. Paul Belin was found guilty with
extenuating circumstances, and sentenced to hard labour at the
hulks for ten years, and to be exposed on the pillory.
The upper part of the site of ancient Car-
thage has receivgd the name of Mount Louis Philippe, since i
the done' on made to the King last year by the Bey of
Tunis, of a tract of land west of the Goletta, between the sea
to the nom th, and the Roman and Carthaginian ruins to the
south. On this spot has been erected the chapel which the
King has dedicated to the memory of St. Louis, who died
there on 25th August, 1270. The first stone of the intended
edifice was laid some time age by a French priest of Tunis,
with much
Soli and the edifice has since been built of
the stone called man's Marble, fitted in with the Tufa,
twGhbeeincpolihaafm
hpoerriicksst,hceobateedd owfitthhestubeacyoo. f Carthage, and vaulted with
The principal entrance into
are to be:—" Chapel of Saint Louis.
faces the sea, and over it is a bronze tablet, on which
inseribed pa French
Louis Philippe j., Kjpg of thp f rencli, has erected the monu-
ment on the sFot where hjs ancestor, the igng Saint Louis,
expired, —1841." On a pediment, the border of which is of
an oriental charaoter, is to be the following inscription in Ara-
bic :—" Here died the magnificent and just Sultan, Louis, son
lof Louk King of France. May God be merciful to him
This groend was granted in perpetuity to the Sultan of the
French, by the illustrious Emir Ahmed Bey. Whoto re-
spects this IPPTIuMent? God will bless him."

vt • -;evo, • • , w

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Aug. 26.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at a Quarter before
Pour o'Clock.
Several Members took the oaths and their seats.
Among them we observed Mr. O'Connell, Mr. D. Cal-
laghan, Sir D. Roche, Mr. Cornelius O'Brien, Mr. W. S.
O'Brien Mr. Hodgson, Mr. Brocklehurst, Mr. Pigot,
Mr. Dillon Browne, Mr. Mark Blake, and Mr. F. Villiers.

The SPEAKER said he had received from the Clerk
of the Hanaper in Ireland the names of certain persons
who had notified, under their hands and seals, their as-
sent to act as Commissioners for the purpose of taking
evidence in that country, under the Act relating to con-
troverted elections.

Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented 13 petitions from
Northampton, complaining of the constitution of the pre-
sent House of Commons, and praying her Majesty to dis-
solve the Parliament and command another to be elected
by Universal Suffrage. Also a petition from Smed-
way, complaining of distress, and praying the House
to address her Majesty, begging of her to call men of
Radical principles to her Councils. The Hon. Member
also presented a petition from two working men at Nor-
wich, complaining of certain proceedings at the last elec-
tion for that city, and praying the House to institute an
inquiry into the malpractices of which the petitioners
complained, and to give them such redress as it should
think proper.
Mr. W. MILES presented a number of petitions from
the County of Somerset against a low fixed duty upon
corn. Also a petition from the parish of Abbotsleigh,
and one from a parish in the City of Bristol, praying for
Church Extension.

Colonel CONOLLY presented a petition from the
Sheriff, Grand Jury, and Magistrates of the County of
Donegal, praying for a revival of the October Quarter
Sessions in that county. The Honourable and Gal-
lant Member then gave notice, that it was his intention,
in the course of the next session of Parliament, to bring
forward a motion on the subject.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

Sir GEORGE GREY moved Conominate,a Committee
on private business :—Sir George Grey, Mr. Labouchere,
Sir Robert Peel, Lord Stanley, Mr. Loch, Lord Gran-
ville Somerset, Mr. Aglionby, Mr. Greene, Sir John
Yarde Buller, Sir James Graham, Mr. Ellice, Mr. Est-
court, Sir Edward Knatchbull, Sir Thomas Fremantle,
Mr. Evvitrt, Mr. Pendarves, Mr. Wilson Patten, Mr.
-William Miles, Sir William Heathcote, Sir George
Clerk, and Sir Robert Ferguson. Agreed to.
POST OFFICE.'

Mr. WALLACE moved for certain returns relative to
the Post-office; and also gave notice of a motion relative
to the appointment of a successor to the present Post-
master-General,
Mr. AINSWORTH moved for certain returns of the
number of stamps used for newspapers.
CASE OF MR. M'LEOD.

Mr. ROEBUCK rose and said, that the Noble
Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs in his place,
he would with the permission of the House proceed to
ask the Noble Lord certain questions, of which he had
given notice on the first night of the Session respecting
the present relations between this country and America
with respect to the detention of _Mr. M‘Leod. He had
stated, when he had given the notice, that it would
be necessary for him to make a few remarks that the
House might understand the questions which he was
about to put. His object in putting these questions
was as far as possible to promote peace, and to obtain
that end he would suggest that before they came to any
conclusion lion. Members should understand the ques-
tion of our relations with the United States. The
question, or rather questions he was about to put were
five in number, and related entirely to the detention of
Mr. M‘Leod. That detention arose out of transactions
connected with the steam-boat Caroline, an attack
upon which on the United States territory had given
great umbrage not only to the State of New
York but the United States generally. Therefore on ap-
plication
was made to the Government of this country,
to which no answer was returned. It so happend that,
in the meantime, Mr. M‘Leod, one of those persons
who was suspected of taking part in the attack, from
his own boastful, but as he (Mr. Roebuck) believed,
erroneous statement respecting it, happened to be
in the State of New York, and was arrested in con-
sequence of the belief so created. When he was
arrested, a feeling in this country arose respecting it, and
orders were sent out to Mr. Fox, our Ambassador, to make
application to the Government of the United States de-
manding the liberation of Mr. M‘Leod, and, there-
upon, an answer was made by Mr. Forsyth, the
American Secretary for Foreign Affairs. To that
answer he requested the attention of the House.
It should always be recollected that the demand was
made by Mr. Fox before an answer was made by the
Noble Lord respecting the Caroline. Mr. Forsyth's
answer was that they had no jurisdiction whatever in the
matter then spoken of—that it was a matter wholly
within the jurisdiction of the State of New
York, and therefore the President of the United,:
States could give no answer nor interfere in the
matter, though relating to the safety of a British sub-
ject. He went even farther, and said that the President
had no feeling in the matter that would induce him to
interfere if he had the power. • Mr. Forsyth shortly after
went out of office, and then came in a new Government,
the new Secretary oiForeign Affairs being Mr. Webster.
Now, what he wanted to know of the Noble Lord was,
first, whether there had been any change in the lan-
guage of the United States Government since the ac-
cession of a new Government to power ? It should
always be recollected, and this should have been the an-
swer given to Mr. Fox, that on the establishment of
Government in the United States they had declared they
considered themselves amenable to the international
law established among civilized nations in Europe.
The sole medium of communication with other nations
was through the Federal Government by means of
the President and the people of the United States
had no more notion of New York as an independent
state than the people of England had of the county of
Rutland being so. Such, he conceived, ought to have
been the answer made to Mr. Forsyth when ho
claimed for New York authority over a British
subject. However, he (Mr. Roebuck) wanted now to
ascertain those facts. He had written them down, and
he would put them into the Noble Lord's hands
in a written form, that he might not mis-
take the nature of the questions. First, he wished
to know whether her Majesty's Government by any
formal declaration had assumed all the responsibility of
the attack on the Caroline ? and then he wanted to know
whether the Government of the United States had ad-
mitted that responsibility, and demanded reparation for
the outrage and injury thus done to the United States,
because it should be always recollected that, if they
demanded reparation for the injury done to the
United States by that attack, it did not lie with
them to turn round and say, that New York
was the only power that had jurisdiction in
that matter ? Next, he wished to ask whether her Ma-
jesty's Government had stated to the Government of the
United States in the case of M‘Leod that he had
acted under the commands of superior officers
with the express sanction of her Majesty ?
Fourthly, he wanted to ask whether her Majesty's Go-
vernment had demanded of the Government of the United
States whether after such declaration it was able, and at the
same time willing, to guarantee the safety and liberation
of Mr. M‘Leod, notwithstanding any determination of
the State of New York to go on with the proceed-
ings now pending in the Courts of that State
against that 'gentleman ? and, lastly, he should
ask if the Government of the United States admitted
the validity of such authority as a protection over
M`Leod ? and if having so admitted it, if the Noble Lord
the Secretary for Foreign Affairs could state any
circumstance which justified the continued detention
of Mr. M`Leed by the authority of the State of New
York ? He thought it would turn out that things had
been stated which would ease the minds of the people of
this country with respect to this subject, and it was with
that object in view that he proposed the above question.

Lord PALMERSTON said That he would be the last
man in that House in any way to curtail whatever in-
formation he might be able to give on any
subject. However, he felt himself bound to
remark, that the proceedings on the part of
the Hon. Member who had just sat down, were some-
what irregular. He was sure the House would
say; that if questions upon an emergency of
great difficulty were preceded by a sort of
narrative of transactions to which they related,
and interspersed with interrogations, it became very
difficult for the person who was to answer those interro-
gations, to refrain from going at length into the subject
to which these questions referred, and thus, under the
form of asking a question, a
,debato might be
brought on involving topics of great national importance.
He had no doubt that the statement which he was about

to make would tend to relieve the minds of many
persons who might think that the present state of the
question, with regard to Mr. M'Leod, was one likely
to bring on any serious difference between the two
countries. The narrative of the Hon. Member was, he
believed, substantially correct. He had no paticalar re-
mark to make upon it. It was quite true, as he stated,
that upon the first demand made by her Majesty's
Government for the liberation of Mr. M‘Leod, an
answer was returned by the late Secretary of
State in America, which was by no means satisfac-
tory, and he was quite ready to admit that as
a doctrine of international law, no one country
had a right to state in reply to a demand of redress of a
wrong done to another country, or to a subject of
another country, that it had peculiar institutions.
Nations being to each other as aggregate communities,
one nation could know nothing of the International laws
or the internal constitution of another. If a wrong were
done, redress must be given, and if the laws and consti-
tution of the country did not give that redress, they
must either alter the laws and constitution, or sub-
mit to the alternative.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Now,
although the first reply was, as he thought,
entirely wrong as a principle of international law, yet
he had the satisfaction to inform the Honourable Mem-
ber and the House, that from the present Govern-
ment of the United States a communication had been
received, of a formal instruction given to the Attorney-
General of the United States, which contained doctrines
perfectly just and consistent with the law of nations,
and perfectly in accordance with the principles upon
which the British Government had demanded the re-
lease of Mr. M‘Leod, and the passage which he should
read from the instructions of the Attorney-General—an
instruction given by Mr. Webster—answered at once two,
and perhaps more, of the questions of the Honourable
Member, because it showed that the British Go-
vernment had avowed their entire responsibility of
the attack made upon the Caroline, and that the
American Government considered that question as one
to be dealt with between the two Governments, and to-
tally unconnected in any way whatever with the ques-
tion how Mr. M‘Leod H as to be dealt with. This in-
struction was dated the 15th March in the present year,
from Mr. Webster to W. Crittenden, the Attorney-
' General of the United States, who was proceeding

• to New York -on business connected with the States.
He recited, in the first place, that Which had
passed, why Mr. M'Leod had been arrested, and on
what ground, and it then said—" I have now to inform
you that Mr. Fox has addressed a letter to Mr. Barclay,
dated the 12th inst., in which, under the imme-
diate instruction and direction of his .Government,
he demands Mr. M'Leod's immediate release,
on the grOund that the transaction on account ofwhich
he has been arrested, and is now to be put on his trial, was
of a public character, planned and executed by persons
duly empowered by her Majesty's colonial authorities.
to take any steps, and to do any acts, which might be
necessary for the protection of her Majesty's Canadas,
and the defence of her Majesty's subjects ; and that,
consequently, those subjects of her Majesty who
had been engaged in that transaction, b were performine-
an act of public diity, for which they cannot be
made, personally and individually, answerable to
the laws and tribunals of any foreign country.—(Hear.)
And that her Mujettfs,.., „Government - had further
directed Mr. Pox to make known to -the
Government of the United States that her Majesty's
Government entirely approved of the course pur-
sued by Mr. Fox, and the, language adopted by
him in his correspondence. Mr. Webster went on
to say, " There is, therefore, now an authentic
declaration, on the part of the British Government, that
the attack upon the Caroline was an act of public force
done by military men, acting under the orders of supe-
riors, and recognized us such by the Queen's Ministers.
The importance of' this declaration was not to be ques-
tioned, and the present President is of opinion that it
calls upou him, in the performance of his high duty, to
state that the individual acting under the authority
of , his Government, as part of a
,public force,
is not to be held as a private trespasser or malefactor, and
that that is a principle sanctioned by the usages of all
civilized nations, and which the Government of
the United States has no inclination to dis-
pute. 7- (Hear, hear.) This has no connection
whatever with the question of whether in this case the
attack on the Caroline was, as the British Govern-
ment thinks it was, a justifiable employment
of military force for the purpose of defending
British territory from an unprovoked attack, or
whether it was a most unjustifiable invasion of its
territories in time of peace as this Government asserts.
The two questions are essentially different, and while
acknowledging that an individual may stand exempted
from the consequences of his act, by showing that he
acted under competent authority, this Government is
not to be understood as changing its opinion
with regard to the character of the transaction
which resulted in the destruction of the Caroline. That
subject it is not necessary, for the objects of this corre-
spondence, to discusa.. Alt that is. intended te be said
at present is, that since the attack of the Caroline is
viewed as a national act, which may justify- reprisals
or a general war, as the United States Government
may seem fit to decide, yet it raises a question entirely
public and political—a question between independent na-
tions—and that the individual concerned in it cannot be
arrested and tried before the ordinary tribunals as for a
violation of municipal law. If the attack on the Caroline
was unjustifiable, as this Government has asserted, the
law violated is the law of nations, and the redress to be
sought is the redress authorized in such cases by
that code. You are well aware that the Presi-
dent has no power to resist the proceedings in the civil
Courts of New York. If this was an indictment in one
of the Courts of the United States, I am directed to say
that the President, on the receipt of Mr. Fox's last com-
munication to Mr. Forsyth, would have directed a
neUi prosequi to be entered."—(Cheers.) Nothing,
in his opinion, could be more honourable to the Govern-
ment of the .United States, or more satisfactory to the
British Government, than that public declaration.
He thought that he had now answered all the questions
of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman except one,- which
was, whether the Government of the United States made
their demands as for an injury done to the United States,
or the State of New York alone. Unquestionably
the demand was, from the first, placed upon the
ground of an injury done to the United States—
(Hear)—and in the last Session of Parliament, when
he (Lord Pahnerston) had a few words to say upon this
subject, lie stated that it was therefore impossible for
the United States to turn round and deny redress on
the ground that this was a question between Great
Britain and the State of New York..--(Hear, hear.)
It was true that the constitution of the United States
placed all matters between the States and foreign Pow-
ers in the hands of the Federal Government. The
constitution said that " No State shall enter
into any treaty with foreign Powers, nor make
war, nor grant letters of marque," or flo certain
other things " without the consent of Congress. *No
State, without the consent of Congress, shall keep an
army or ships of war in time of peace, or do any act of
war, except in case of imminent danger."—(Hear, hear.)
it was perfectly trite that this question could no more be
said to be between Great Britain and the State of New-
yerk, than, if America had felt herself aggrieved by
(beat Britain, it could be said that the question was
fiitween America and the county of Rutland.—(hear.)
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had said that in the
outset of the affair the Government of Great Britain
ought to have sent a special envoy to the state of New
York. But that would be, in fact, a nullification or
denial of the constitution of the United States—{Hear,
hear)—and the latter would be entitled to. resent
it as an affront.—(Hear, hear.)" He (Lord Palmerston)
would not enter now into any statement or speculation
as to what was to come.—(Hear, hear.) He would not
anticipate what step the United States would take to carry
out those principles of international law'which Federal
Governments had so handsomely recognized.—(Cheers.)