The Sun.
London, England, 1847-12-15 00:00:00

PETITIONS.

Mr. J. WILLIAMS presented a petition praying the
House to pass a law to enable poor-law guardians to
make retiring allowances to their officers.
Mr. LEWIS and Mr. Hun' presented similar petitions.
Mr. F. BARING presented a petition from Ports-
mouth in favour of the removal of Jewish disabilities.
A number of petitions were presented against the ad-
mission of Jews into Parliament.
Mr. SCHOLEFIELD presented a petition against the
Roman Catholic Trusts Bill.
Sir W. HEATHCOTE presented a petition complain-
ing of the practice of Roman Catholics in Ireland de-
nouncing persons from the altar.
Certain HARRIS presented a petition against the
Roman Catholic Trust Bill.
Sir R. H. INGLIS presented a petition, praying the
House to take measures to prevent Roman Catholic
priests denouncing persons from the altar.
Mr. C. ANSTY presented a petition from a place in
Ireland, praying the House to amend the law of landlord
and tenant.
Mr. HultilE presented a petition from Yarmouth,
praying for the removal of Jewish disabilities.
NOTICES OF MOTION.

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461 A
3414

Major BLACK- ATI gave notice that, on Friday, he
should move that the House do not adjourn till it had
taken into consideration the distress of Ireland, and tho
means available to Government for mitigating it.
Colonel SALIVEY gave notice that to morrow he
would ask the Noble Lord at tho head of the Govern-
ment whether it was his intention, in the course of tho
present session, to introduce any measure for the relief
of that portion of her Majesty's subjects who conscien-
tiously differ from the doctrines of the Established
Church from the payment of church-rates.
Mr. lIEIIRIES postponed his motion relating to
commercial distress till after the vacation, when he hoped
Government would assist him in bringing it forward on
an early day.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in the
absence of his Noble Friend the First Lord of the Trea-
sury, could make no promises, but of course it was open
to the Right Hon. Gentleman to re-appoint his motion
for any notice day after the recess.

PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. FRENCH appealed to the Right Honourable the
Chancellor of the Exchequer to allow the Public Works
(Ireland) Bill to be read a third time before the order
of the day for nominating the Committee on Commercial
Distress, in order that it might be read a first time to-
day in the Lords.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIEQUER was
always anxious to do as he would be done by, and there-
fore he would readily assent to the proposal of the Hon.
Member.

Mr. FRENCH then moved the third reading of the
Bill.

Lord LINCOLN, before the Bill was read a third
time, was anxious to know whether it had the sanc-
tion of Government, and whether its provisions had
been approved of by the law officers of the Crown.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
some short time ago a deputation waited upon him to
know what were the intentions of the Government witk
respect to these public works, and his answer was that
they were not prepared to borrow any more moneyluntil
former advances had been repaid. He was then asked
whether Government had any objection to the intro-
duction of a Bill to enable Irish counties to raise money
p
on their own responsibility, for the purpose
tatea not,
hh had
fdeom-
pleting their public works. He re
Major
t he been
Crown.
Br prepared
ca rieidA underLi who
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o
and the present measure, although brought in by two
private Members, had in fact
eye of the Irish law officers e
After a few words from
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said the
themselves,Boughttothhaveßeil
passed.
COMMERCIAL DISTRESS.
Tho CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in
rising to move the order of the day for nominating the
Committee on commercial distress, said he wished to
make a few observations on the general composition of
the Committee. The House had decided that
the Committee should consist of twenty-six Mem-
bers, and the question now before the House
rrd thoseaea
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was, who those Members should be. Some Hon.
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the House the necessity of having every class repre-
sented on the Committee, while one or two gentlemen
had gone so far as to say that a larger number of Scotch
and Irish Members ought to have been selected to servo
upon this inquiry. Some contended that the East and
West India interest ought to have been largely repre-
sented; others that the manufacturing and trading com-
munity ought to have been more extensively represented;
but the House would agree with him, he was sure, that
the Committee was already large enough, and to add to
its numbers might tend to defeat the objects they
had in view in appointing it. But Hon. Gentlemen
must remember that the cases of any class or individual
were repeatedly brought before such Committees as these
by evidence, and, therefore, it was hardly necessary to
have ea©h class or set of individuals directly represented
upon the Committee. For instance, on the Committee

of 1840, the Chamber of Commerce of Manchester
representing more or less that part of the country, sent
a deputation to represent their opinions in the Com-
mittee, and in tile same way were the opinions and
interests of other classes and individuals brought pro-

minently before the Committee. So with respect to
this Committee, he was quite sure there would be no
indisposition to examine witnesses cr receive deputations
from any class who were anxious to be represented, and
he thought it would be much better to rely upon the ma-
chinery of evidence than to make the Committee practi-
cally inoperative by uselessly augmenting its number. Al-
though every class might not be directly represented
every shade of opinion was, and he had no doubt Hon.
Members who composed the Committee would take care
to see that their views and opinions were properly
investigated. First, he had placed upon the Committee
three members of the present Cabinet, whose especial
duty it was to attend to the financial department of the
Government, and yet the Noble Lord, the Member for
Lynn, proposed that one of these should be struck out.
Again he had placed three members of the late Govern'
melt on the Committee, namely, Sir Robert Peel, Sir
James Graham, and Mr. Goulburn, who were also
members of the Committee of 1840, and these names could
not possibly be objected to. Next on the list were the
names of Lord G.Bentinck, Mr. Disraeli, and Mr. 'Jerrie°,
and he confessed he did not think any body could find
fault with these selections, for here they had represented
the Government present, the Government past, and the
Government in future.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
The Right Honourable Gentleman then proceeded to
show that his other selections had been made from
Members who had represented every shade of opinion,
from those who were for and against the Bill of 1844
from those who were for a mixed standard of value--
from those who were for the re-issue of one-pound notes
—from those who were for free trade in bullion—from
those who were connected with manufacture and trade--
and from those who were connected with English.
Scotch, and Irish banking establishments. In fact, ile
said it was hardly possible to have selected a Committee
that could present a greater variety of opinion
than the one he now proposed to nominate.
The Hon. Gentleman then read the names of those
Members who were in favour, and those who were
against the Bill of 1844. Six of the gentlemen nomi-
nated had not given their opinion. As the list stood,
seven Members were favourable to the views of the Noble
Lord (Lord George Bentinck), five were pledged to th
Bill, and fourteen against it.—(Hear.) This shows"
that he wished to have the mercantile community fairlY
represented on the Committee—that he did not wish to
have it packed.—(Hear, hear.) It would be useless
to the public if gentlemen of such experience as Di!'
Hume and Mr. Herries declined to serve. The expel'
ence they had had fitted them for such an investigatiou'
He should have no objection to see Mr. Hume in that
Committee; but he thought Mr. Herries the better Mete-
ber, because be fairly represented, the opinions of the
mercantile world respecting Scotch banks of issue. They,
had, however, a fair claim to be on that Committee; and
he trusted one of them would serve. He should regal'
any alteration in the Committee, except the substitution
of another Hon. Member in the place of Mr. Hume. 111
considered, that in nominating the Committee as he had
done, he had selected those Members who would do the
public essential service.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. DRUMMOND did not think that they would
derive any relief from the report of the Committee is
question.—(Hear, hear.) What did the House want'
Did it wish to get rid of the dull and uninteresting
debates by shutting up those Members who spoke upon
the question in a small committee-room up stairs ?
(Laughter.) That was not the proper way to legislate.
—(Hear.) They should first understand the AB C of
their inquiry, and not enter, as it appeared to him the)"
would, into a mass of uncertain investigation. Unless
the Committee wore unanimous in the principles of their
investigation their labours would prove abortive. The
present was a day of expansion. The old foot-rule would
no doubt be declared insufficient to measure the number and
length of railways to be made, and our trade being ee
longer confined to home, these persons might say that
1.
they should use expansive vessels, and convey their
commodities in expansive ships.—(Laughter.) Wu!t
they wanted was a measure of fixed value, which be
contended they pessessed, because gold, in its different
parts, was stamped of a certain value, and was receive°
in commercial transactions at the specified value. 9
measure which they could enact would prevent periodical
crises. When the funds were low, and over-trading
prevalent, commercial crises would almost inevitably
follow.
Mr. OSBORNE replied to the question of the
Honourable Member. What did the House Mint:.
The House was about to enact a scene,
his opinion, from Much Ado about Nothing:
The whole burden of that Right Hon. Baronet's speech
(Sir R. Peel) was this—that after the Committees
which had been appointed it was unnecessary to app
point another. He said fifteen thousand questions were
asked in these former Committees, and what more did
they want? But, if any one came to look at them, t"ei
would find that the replies of Mr. Jones Loyd were
more like essays, and might be published as such seri-
rately, than as replies to terse and definite queries.--
(Laughter.) Now, it appeared to him that the Hour
were going to shelve the question.—(Hear, hear.) The
_
commercial classes, instead of obtaining any immediate
remedy, would have their prayers put off, and the
Committee would no doubt report in about
two years, when their labours would be valuelel
—(Hear, hear.) He regretted now that he had
voted with the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel)-"
be was so taken away with his able speech, that be
could have followed him anywhere.—(Laughter.) But
the next morning—(Laughter)—when he looked at foe
views with calm deliberation, he regretted that he had
not followed the Noble Lord (Lord George Bentinck)
into the lobby, because he believed that ho should have
adopted the proper course. He considered that they
should have a Committee composed of independent
Members—of those who had not expressed any senti-
ments on the question of currency. They should have
those who had not read any currency pamphlets, be'
cause they might depend upon it that their time
would be occupied in currency controversies.—(Head)
He should prefer Mr. Reynolds (Dublin) to Mr. Hamel,
though he entertained great respect for the ability of
the latter Hon. Gentleman. He said this because the
Hon. Gentleman had told him that the labours of the
Committee would be futile, for it was mere,'
shelving the question—(Hear, hear)—from the House.
He should support the name of Mr. Reynolds, if they
went to a division.
Mr. NE WDEGATE supported the names proposed b 5
his lion. Friend (Lord G. Bentinck). He did so he;
cause they would obtain men practically acquainten
with the working of the measure complained of ; t„,he!
would have practical men, and not mere theorists. "",,
Muntz, Mr. Reynolds, and Mr. Brown were lerge,.4,
engagd in home and colonial trade, and were
therefore fit gentlemen to constitute the je..„*".
gral portion of such a tribunal as the one il)`-d:
posed. The exclusive use of gold as their stand of
almost to the exclusion of silver was the great cause rs
the commercial depression. Let the Committee rert
upon this point. He told the Government Olt;
though they might stop the discussion of the matter to
the House by the appointment of a Committee, h
would not stifle extensive discussion out of doors.
Lord G. BENTINCK rose to draw back the Idle°.
tion of the House to the real matter of the debtil,
He would confine himself to the names he had proposurd
and though their might be several additions he sh°l/08
not again address them. He assured the Honottra
Members, the exclusion of whose names
had proposed, that he did so without t.
tending to cast upon them any personal disresn";o
The limitation of the Committee to 26 reduced him
the invidious necessity of proposing their exclusit/0,
i 0
He had proposed the names of several gentleman it
order to render the Committee more likely to weed
greater good than as originally proposed. lie prop be
Mr. Hastie in the room of Mr. Labouchere, because
thought that he would better represent a certain sec'i;aThto
of the commercial community. The same might be Ant
by him with respect to the others. He thought I";tie
as the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) was pledged W
the
measure, and as Sir W. Clay had written a book eedon
question, it would be better to have the City of Loa
do
by Mr. Pattison.—(llear, hear.) From ,he
way in which the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir B. Fiegebt
supported the Government—in fact it vs- ed
almost be said that he was the Government—it seen, ;
as if he had dictated the letter sent by the Governaleno
to the Bank.—(Hear, hear.) The House wished.
doubt, to see new blood in a Committee of this kind.o.
(Hear.) It was because he did not think that the ge_ad
tlemen proposed were likely to come to an unprejudiu;
opinion that he proposed substitutes for some of dienos
—(Cheers.) Let the House recollect that it weemst
until houses had failed for 15,000,0001.
the Government consented to suspend the ''',
Those whom he proposed were indopenoe.
men, and likely to come to an unprejudiced opieite
He thought that Mr. Brown would better represent
sentiments of Liverpool than Mr. Cardwell. The fertile'
gentleman, in a recent deputation on the subject of co 0;
mercial distress, did the ornamental work, while cti.l,t,
latter performed the most laborious and arduous part tif
and was, in his opinion, a gentleman who would more 3114
represent the sentiments of the cotton lords than 1';
Hon. and Learned Gentleman.—(Hear.) Let them be
collect that Mr. Brown differed with him ; in fact
had proposed but one gentleman who acted in coLl2°loon
with him. Then, with respect to Scotland, the Sig
Honourable Gentleman said he had named Tee
(Mr. H. Drummond), and he did not object to him.
Chancellor'of the Exchequer bad said that he had coostur-ed
all sorts of persons on the subject, and all they requested
of him was, to give them the light of his countenallee ire
Honourable Gentleman the Member for PerthtT ja
The means of staying the panic had been adopted ~,6
consequence of the representations of the bankers 0f.v4,..;
City of London, and he thought that it was but 170
that one of the Hon. Members connected with. ,ee,
City of London should be placed on the ComwitLf
With respect to the appointment of the Hon. lgelfili'a,
for Oxford (Mr. Henley) in the room of Mr. Rictr",asa.
he thought that change ought to be made. The Jay a
Member for Stoke-upon-Trent (Mr. Ricardo) wsiader
stock-broker by professiou, and he did not ".11dered
that that profession was one which could be cone
_Le
as connected with the commercial institutions of I°
country ; that he also possessed, by almost heredital,
right, very strong opinions upon the subject of the eseni,
rency. In the room of Mr. Ricardo he propod
,_so
therefore, to insert the name of Mr. Henley, who "
opposed the Bank Charter Act.
(LEFT SITTING)

DIED. t
On the Bth inst., at Kinmel-park, St.' AOtpli, the Right
Hon. Frances Margaret Baroness Gardneri.'
On the 30th ult., in St. John's-wood-road; Sebastian liasb'
Esq., aged 61.
On the 2d inst., in Manor-street, Clapham, Mrs. Agent'?
Fry, aged 68.
On the 6th inst., at Paris, Mrs. Marsh, widow of Thomas
Coxhead, Marsh, Esq.

at
London : Printed and Published bT MURDO Y0T.M.4%., 2
No. 112, Strand, Printer, at me Sun Office, No. lloi
Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the 004 Y
Middlesex, Wednesday, December 15, 184 T.