The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-17 00:00:00

Right Hon. Gentleman, he did not wish to dwell upon his state-
ment, but had he been in the House, he would have contradicted
everything he had said.—(Laughter.) It hart been said that his
object was to promote the interest, of the great lines already made,
or in progress, but that was not the object of his Bill. The strong
lines could take care of themselves. The London and Birminghamln
Of Ireland, the Ulster line, was ten years in dragging its slow
thisseh
along ; and after all, only 24 miles had been completed.
hue there had been 21,000 passengers against every
London and Birmingham line. Ile understood that certainett
Companies had offered better terms than he proposed, if the 13,0000n
railway On length
the
rn-
anent would lend assistance, but his object was to intersectthGeoe
whole
• countrywith a system of railways, and not to selecttrtahtuee nbeest ptahyehng
a nllignteas.
Now, then, taking into accownt the returns fur
forer
and American railways, he thought there was
was an absolute certainty
able to repay the Govern-
;that not only would the Irish railways b
'lnent advances, but that they would also realise a
considerable
ih
• profit. H right Hon. Baronet the very
3oin
e thought that the
. Tamworth was quite sonvinced that the
of somestate m ,
statement in,agrdeeabi
known,". with respect to theby
the
. Chancellor of the Exchequer, on the authority
25
He or
was 30
quitem en
sore per
that mile
Upon the railways, was altogether
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had :not made his statements on
the authority of Mr. Brunel, for he (Lord G. Bentinck) saw, from a
report of that gentleman, that he could employ upon the Stranmore
Railway, a line of seven miles in length, from 700 to 1,000 men.
Then the Hon. and Gallant Admiral the Member for. Marylebone
. told the House that the Irish labourers were not
capable of performing the work en those railways. There was no
man Pa the House who had greater respect for the Gallant Admiral
than he had, when in his eroper sphere—(Laughter) —and if Com-
modore Connor ant General Taylor should succeed in ennexing
Mexico, and turn their attention to the British West Indies, or if Prince
Joinville should think proper to sail up the Thames with an arma-
ment, as his Highness once threatened to do, there wes no officer in
the British navy lie (Lord G. Bentinck) should wish to see in com-
e mend of the fleet more than the Gallant Ad. 1r l.—(Cheers ) But
the moment the Gallant Admiral stepped from the gangway, or got
into the dockyard, or even set his foot on shore, he was as
much out of his element as a fish out of water.—(Cheers.)
c‘3le understood that the Government empowered the Gallant Admiral
to build a steam-ship of war, which he christened the " Sidon," but
'the jolly tars, for reasoes best known to themselves, and which
"might he understood by the House, had rechristened her, and called
-her "Drunken Charley,"—(Great laughter.) He received a letter
*from Thomastown, which informed him that the relief committee
was a sinecure, except when the weather was toe bad to permit the
labourers to work upon the line.—(Hear, hear). He held
:also in his hand a letter from a Major Wandesford,
• which stated that the works upon the Kilkenny and Waterford
Railway had been stopped for want of funds, and that the strangers
who had been employed there were now going about the country
i Insisting on obtaining money or food. lie would entreat the House
to pay attention to this fact—when railways were carried on the
people were employed, and quietness prevailed ; when they ceased,
'riot and disorder was the consequence, and the assistance of the
Police and military had to be sought for. The Hon. Member for
S Cork bad stated to the House that 25,0'0 souls had already pe-
rished from the famine, and that two millions would follow from
the same cause, and from pestilence, and he therefore entreated
that English gentlemen would bear with him whilst he was endea-
Lvenr:ng to prove his case, and show that the measure
c' which he proposed was of vital importance, and would em-
- ploy the people of that country. He had a letter from the secretary
of the Midland Western Railway of Ireland. His Hon. Friend the
Member for Shrewsbury had disposed of the railways in the north,
_ and the Hon. Member for Radnorshire had disposed of the Great
Western and Southern, and it was only for him to deal with the
Waterford and Limerick and Dublin and Mullingar.—(The Noble
• Lord then read the letter, which was to the effect that it was a mis-
take to assert that the labourers on that line were not taken from
the locality through which it passed ; they were not Scotch or
. English, and, with a little practice and better food, they would
compete with the English and Scotch. The best proof of it was, that
during the harvest the labourer's work declined forty per cent., and
the engineer was obliged to grant some indulgence that the work
might not interfere with saving the harvest. There had been
a strike because labourers had been brought in from Ros-
.. common ; there was employment for 3,200 men a-week, and they
could only employ 6,000 additional for the next fifteen months
fur the line to Athlone. There was a plan for an ex-
tension from Athlone to Galway which would bisect Ireland, and if
this measure was carried it would ensure the completion of it, in-
a stead of its being unfinished for years, like the Dublin and Drog-
- heda and Ulster lines. He wished to call the attention of the
Honourable Member for Roscommon, that this line would traverse
his county, and unless this measure passed there was no prospect
of that county's having a railway for years. There was fish
caught on the coast of Galway to the amount of 4,0001b5. per day.
•'lle had a return of the quantity of fish carried by the Midland
Counties Railway in the last year from Mull, Whitby, and Scar-
-t borough, and it am:muted to 95,002 tons ; which, at 3d. a pound, or
3s. Gd. a stone, would give the value of 266,000/. ; and much of
which, but for the railway, would have been wasted.—(Cries
of "Hear, hear.") He had a letter from Mr. Stephenson, the
engineer, which was to the effect that the assertion that 25 or 30
men a mile would be sufficient to complete any railway in two or
three years was so monstrous that it could not have been statetl by
any competent engineer. The Birmingham line occupied four years,
and ten to fifteen thousand men. On the Manchester and Leeds
Railway, 10,000 men had been employed five years, being 200
men per mile. Much the same had been the case on the North
Midland, and other lines. The cost per mile of a line was mainly
. spent in local labour, in the proportion of 19 to 16 out of the gross
cost.—(Hear.) It was, therefore, entirely contrary to fact to say
_ that England was about to be taxed for the benefit of Ire-
land ; for of the mosey expended, a considerable portion would be
paid in this country for locomotives mid carriages ; Mr. Stephen-
' son calculated that one third of the °Liras' would be thus spent ; the
remaining two-thirds would go to the employ of Irish labour. It had
been objected on the other side, that the effect of this Bill would be to
withdraw the labourers from the fields, and that there would be no
harvest next year. But it had been shown by the reports of tile Poor-
! law Commissioners that five times as many labourers were employed
on the land in Ireland as in England ; and yet the proportionate pro-
duce was not near so great.—(Cries of " Divide, divide.") He had new
• met all the objections which had been made to the measure, except
that of the Hos. Member for Inverness (Mr. Baillie), who said that
Scotland asked for ito such loan, though sufferings equal distress. Ile agreed with that lion. Member in admiring the conduct of Scotch
'landlords; but on behalf of Scotland he (Lord George
Bentinck) repudiated the Honourable Gentleman's doctrine. Scot-
. laud had received a promise of an alteration in the Drainage Act to
enable the landlords to meet their difficulties; and even tinder the
present Act, while English landowners haul borrowed only 250,0001.,
Scotch landowners had borrowed 850,000/.—(llear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman the ex-Chancellor of the
Exchequer; (Mr.
F. Baring) said the principle of the Bill was a novel one. Wh
a Committee appointed in 1835, of which Lord :(trltahnoraee maste3r-,
of the HoniGentleman opposite at the' time—
eTa)r-- (Laughter)--was as a
member, recommended a loan for Irish railway's.--6(
A Chancellor of the Exchequar had proposed a grant of 5,000 e0a0r0.1).
at it period when commercial credit was at a discount, to be lent,
not on such security as was now offered, but on the credit of
the
property of distressed tradesmen. On a former occasion, when
a large loan was proposed by Mr. Pitt, Mr. Fox opposed
it on constitutional grounds, as giving too much- power to the
Ministry; but when it came to the vote, he said he had not
heart or nerve enough to go to a division.— (Cheers.) Accounts
from America stated that a design of raising a loan of 23,000,000
dollars had had the effect of raising the velum of the public
seeurit'es.—(Laughter.) But they said, because he had stated
the other night " that he had summoned his friends," that
he was therefore making this a party question. lie had
riot summoned his friends, however, until the Prime Minister
had told him that they had determined to reject his measure.
Nether had he intended any party movement by declaring that he
and his friends were ready to undertake the duty of Government.
. All he haul meant was that they would never shrink from the re-
sponsibility which the passing of this Bill might impose upon
them. He (Lord George Bentinck) brought forward this measure
In no spirit of rivalry to the Government. He only wished it
to be auxiliary to their measures, and he trusted they would
so use it. If they did not, he warned them that when they could
110 longer give the key of the granary they must expect to be at-
• tacked with the crowbar and the pickaxe. Let them, adopt, there-
fore, this measure. If they declined to carry it out as a Govern-
meat, they might appoint an unpaid Commission to which lila Hon.
Friend the Lord Mayor of York would give his gratuitous services
'—(Laughter)—and concerning which he would only say, that if they
'would place him at the head of it, he would undertake to carry it out,
and to be responsible for its suesess at the risk of impeachment.
The Noble Lord, after going into a lengthened statement of the
benefits which would accrue to the starving population of Ireland
frem the passing of this Bill, prayed the House to do so. That was
his only prayer, and one which he should use if it were the last
time that he should ever have to address that House er any other
Mortal assembly. (The Noble Lord sat down amid loud and pro-
. longed cheers.)
After a few observations from some Hon. Members,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Although, Sir, I am very unwil-
trig to detain the House from coming :to a division at this late
hour, and although I mean to forbear from attempting to reply
'to the speech of the Noble Lord the MeMber for Lynn, yet my
Right Honourable Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer
Laving had many of his statements attacked, I think it is re-
spectful to the House that, before they come to a decision, I
should state what is the general view (without going into de-
tails) which I take of the condition of this country and of Ire-
land at the present moment, and upon the bearing of the Bill
now brought forword.—(Hear.) I will not now go into the
finances of the case; but, without stating particulars, I will say
generally concur in the view which the Right Honourable
Gentleman the Member for Tamworth takes of our financial
situation at the present moment. This makes any question of
assistance to Ireland extremely serious. But there is another
part of the question which refers to our commercial and soeia
Position. There was no such failure in England or in Scotland,
except in the islands, as would have made this year a year of suf-
fering or of difficulty to the people of Great Britain ; but, Sir,
the great failure of the potato in Ireland has made it necessary,
in the opinion of the executive Government of this country, to
make a very great effort in order to preserve a large portion of
the people of that country from starving. The consequence
of that effort has been that, instead of a large importation, as
has usually been the ease, of food from Ireland to this country,
there has been, in the first place, a much smaller importation,
and, in the next place, there is a considerable exportation,
which is now going on from this country to Ireland for the
purpose of feeding those whose usual food has entirely
failed. Their means of procuring that food are fur-
nished from the Treasury of this country at the
rate of 800,000. c or 900,000/. per month ; but the
consequence of enabling the people of Ireland in
such large numbers to buy the food which goes from this
Country and which comes from foreign countries is, that the
price of food in this country is very greatly enhanced. Not
Only that, the consequence of a high price is beginning to
be felt very severely, as it has been felt in former years in
the depression of eye manufactures and in the want of those
sufficient wages of industry by which thoe. greater part of our
population are maintained. It is, in my
,lemoofstthd.esirable
not to make that pressure greater thanthpernmon
tey can bear, so as to be able safely to assist fellow-sub-
jects in Ireland.—( Hear, bear.) I think if we were presstwo-üb_.
to a very much greater extent than we are now pressing the
drain upon the resources of this country, we should find that,
without entirely enabling the people of Ireland to escape the
dreadful consequences of the present famine, we should he dis-
abling the people of England and of Scotland from giving
them that assistance which I am proud to think they are dis-
posed to give. With this view, therefore, of our finances, and
of our commercial and manufacturing position, I have to con-
sider how the means of this country can be best disposed of to
preserve the greatest number of human creatures from perish.
Hear, hear.) That, Sir, appears to me to be a very
serious and a very painful, but, at the same time, a true view
of the case. I believe that in the last week not less
Alban 600,000 individuals have received wages on what are
Called the public works in Ireland, representing, pro-
bably, three millions of people. There are a hundred thou-
rind more in the workhouses of Ireland, maintained by
rates. There are thousands and thousands more who are
maintained by private charity in Ireland, and by the exertions
at the resident landowners, many of whom have exhibited an
admirable example of personal sacrifice on behalf of the poorer
classes. I have to consider then, when more than three
millions, say three millions and a half, or even more of persons
me thus living, whether from advances from the Treasury,
Whether from rates collected, or whether from subscriptions
*ad charitable donations—l have to consider whether the pro-
Position of my Noble Friend is one that tends directly to
the removal of that distress. Now, Sir, on that point Ido
not think the proposition is effectual in the manner that gen-
tlemen—some of them representing Ireland here, and others in
Ireland—believe it to be. I cannot think'so, because while I
see that the monies which are taken from those different
sources are all applied or intended to be applied to the relief
of the most distressed persons, of the most destitute, and of
those Most in wantofisfood, I find that the.employment given by
railway contracto,rsto
thnoasturally to the best labourers, to the
loost able-bodied
who are best able to bear the hard-
ships of that laborious Occup
ation. My Noble Friend,
course of his speech,
tittecroutradiet a statement made by
in the
the Chancellor of the Excise employe Limerick and Water-
ford Railway had declined tomyth the labourers of the
wasg t f Hon. Friend (the
neighbourhood. I believe
tIY corrects—that
Chancellor of the Exchequer)
it amounts to this, net that they
carried
employ
the able-bodied labourers where the railweavuVb t°
On, but they say, and I have the letter of the sec:eitn!
or jabot::
that they do object to employ the worst class
What they like to e
and the very destitute poor.
labourers.—(Thera• are of
Noble
course the best and most able-bodied
Lord then read the letter in question, which was cheered by
Dlr. W. R. Collett.) The Hon. Gentleman cheers. I hay,
no doubt from his experience, it is exactly the statement he
to make,
that they are
Would expect the railway company
ready to employ the able-bodied labourers of the neighbour.
hood, but they do object to that general employment of the
destitute, which to procure, after all, should be the great ob-
ject of the Executive in making their advances. In the course
Of these discussions the Hon. Member for Sunderland made
various statements in respect to the employment of labour
afforded by railways with which he is concerned. I have re-