The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-06 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY MORNING, MARCH 6, 1

THE
RAILWAY COMNIISSIONERS BILL.
of 3 thIr.,kI.UNTZ presented a p,,tilion from the director.
e Joitrumgham, Dudley, and W..lverhAnpton Rail-
"a7 Company av,ainst the provisions of this Bill.
THE RAJA OF SATTARA.
Vcrseir BE LACY EVANS presented a petition from
streiniter, praying for an irluiry into the oir?um-.
'llaces attendant on the dethronement of the Raja of
Dallas,

SPANISH DEBT.
kot Lord G. BENTINCK wished to give notice that, on
!titbiY next, I.e would present a petition from the
hordrrnati and deputy-chairman of the Spanish
et Association, asking assistance of the House
~ Bond-
obtain redress from the raniSpsh Crown, in the matter
1_ a debt which they stated was above 7,000,000/. ster-
p,.and which they alleged was principally due to
IirI.tESEN
ratsh subjects.
SESSIONS IN IRELAND.
BOUVERIE said that, seeing the Right Hon. the
Ei-retarY for Ireland in his place, he wished to inform
~aln that he bad seen in the Dublin Gazette sixteen pro-
vt;itations for the holding of presentment sessions in
gill parts of Ireland. Now, he understood that
.a
tut sit passed through the House providing a substi-
wise for the Public Works Act passed last session ; he
therefore to ask whether those proclamations
for`e,intended to authorise those presentment sessions
the furtherance of public works as well as for the
rre of supplying food to the destitute Irish?
heen*LABOUOHERE said, that as the Act which had
passed as a substitute for the Public Works Bill had
t'nlY lately received the sanction of the Legislature,.
ea. re had not been time allowed for carrying it into
stiet. Ile could assure the lion. Mernier that the
tie-I°lls wish of the Government was to reduce and ex-
ti Irish the present system of providing public works
seiiiirlY as possible, consistent with the peace of the
snitrY and the welfare of the people.
r• HUME wished to keow if any order had been
tataitted to the Irish Government upon the subject?
4'4% LABOTIC HERE replied in the affirmative.
dr• sp SUNDAY TRAINS.
the • n `-'ONER gave notice that he should move that
Petition from Yerk against the compulsory Sunday
ling be printed the votes.
HOLYHEAD HARBOUR.
thet.)rd SANDON moved for certain returns showing
of name of the engineer who has been finally apple -veil
plans h' r Majesty's Government, with a copy of the
nitpi the estimated cost of the same, together eith the
eens'e' °f such engineers and nautical men as had been
utilted and approved of the same.
beenti COOPER stated that those returns had already
- 'aid upon the table of the House.
BnTTPUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND).
pursue. 4 uVE RI E wished to know the course to be
we ,—"; 03r the Government with regard to the public
titur„-3 Lu Ireland. If he remembered rightly, a short
Li,' ago there was a letter addressed by the Lord-
theutenant to the relief commissioners, suggesting that
34a Public works should be effectuully, but gradually,
public He wished to know if any suspension of the
me works in Ireland had taken place.
ke37: LABOUCHERE could only give a general
the er to the question. He had no doubt that some of
the public works had already been suspended. It was
desireDoss:ei of the Government to close as speedily as
the system of public works in Ireland.
tordAtIIREARS OF RATES (IRELAND.).
siekt DUNCAN wished to put a question with re-
lit:, to the Castlebar Union. A letter had that morning
14'; circulated, written by Mr. Otway, dated Feb. 11,
that st,ating• that two-thirds of the rates in arrear for
stut,„,union were due from solvent parties. He further
tho—u, that a rate had not been struck, and he impresses
necessity of the Government making advances on the
t ok,,eeuritY of these rates. He wished to a,k if it was the
ftiintion of the Government to make any such advances
enCe Public money, and what steps were to be taken to
.
from
the collection of the rate from the solvent lessors
:1,1 whoSm they were due?
ir 0- GREY said, that with regard to the first.
question of his Noble Friend he had no additional infor-
li",„"ou to give beyond that which was already before the
It'll"- With regard to the latter part of the question, he
:roc:elderdeifnegr his Noble Friend to the 20th page of the
peer to which he had referred, wit, re he would find that
s had been instituted..l by, the Commissioners,
arr„ view to tha enforcing t. e ment of tte rates in
'ar, by the lessor.
Mr. FscoTT wished to know Lot d Lucan had paid
the rate's due from him, and if net, whether he would be
excluded from his right to vote ?
GEORGESir GREY said that the Noble Lord to
trIvh(111 the Hon. Member referred was then in Ireland.
bl-5 had placed on the table of the House papers in which
~had expressed a strong opinion as to his liability to
e Payment of those rates. He (Sir George Grey) had
„
deubt, that if the Noble Lord found that he was
Ihthle for those rates, he would at once pay them.
Mr. ESOOTT wished to know whether there was
bad given notice?
Sir G. GREY said that, if the Hon. Member had
read the papers that had been laid on the table with
attention he would have seen that there was no
indisposition to exonerate the rate-payers at
the expense of the Treasury, but the utmost
exertion would be made in the collection of the rates.
the Lord-Lieutenant to advance money to prevent the
?(I'ling of workhouses, and the distress that would ensue
consequence. The Carron Union had no particular
i.„141 to favour, and would form no especial example,
he Lord-Lieutenant would exercise the same dis-
cretion with respect to other unions as that which had
bfen exercised with regard to Carron.
kr. HUME inquired whother there would be any
disposition on the part of the Government to piss a re-
solution to the effect that no more money should be
advanced for the relief of any union than was
by
the collection of the rates. .
Sir G. GREY did not quite understand the question,
out he might remind the Hon. Gentlemsn that there was
a distinct motion on the papers of the House,. and when
that came on for discussion the whole of the details
would naturally be brought under the attention of the
"Anise.

CRACOW.
Mr. STUART WORTLEY wished to ask a question
of the Noble Lord opposite as to whether any arrange-
ment had been especially entered into with respect to
the
,convention between this country and Russia in 1831,
7,111 Whether he had any objection to lay the papers on
•as table.
442,,,rd J. RUSSELL—The discussion would be re-
on Thursday, when he would then answer the
question.'
SALE OF SPIRITS IN CANTEENS.
th:,ll the motion that the House go into Committee on
Ordnance Estimates,
arLi Colonel LINDSAY rose to move, that an humble
—are e_
hss be presented to her Majesty, praying that she,
iau,"e,graciously pleased to direct inquiry to be made
the effect that the present canteen system has
tiltsnn the army ; and whether it would not be advan-
-114:11°11s to discipline, and to the moral improvement of
'tajesty's troops, to prevent the sale of spirituous
~,e`,;(>,, in canteens within the precincts or proximity
'barracks. In making this motion, he was only urged
- ri-esire todo his duty in that House and to the country.
raen",iti not wish to offer any opposition to the Govern
; on the contrary, he thought be could throw out
mu); suggestion which might lead to a reduction in the
the s-nrit required for the estimates. It appeared that
etat;ra 01 65,000/. was derived as rent from the
of nens and washing the sheets. The total number
eran"en, including the artillery, in the British
amountrre 'vas 119,8 v. Excluding the artillery, tie
Nyhjeh ~derived from washing the sheets was I I 896/. 45.,
leo , deducted from the total sum of 65,7391., would
Th: as derivable from the canteens the sum of 53,8431.
to tileantecns were usually let for a period of three years
cha °highest bidder, provided he was a person of good
e►actor. The tenant had also to pay a fixed sum for
tsr,an in the barracks, including also the men in the
4 re'al, married men living out of the barracks, and who
theirrir °"uPied the barracks except when on duty, alnd,
callenet allowed to go into the canteen. He wa,svhaas:.
eaerd "Pen to pay all taxes, rates, and assessments
• of •
what-
that e result this mode of letting the calm_ was,
ex, I." Person who occupied it was obliged to be ra
st
ofehitant in his charges. This was not the fault of the
theeeGet3 in Command, nor the fault of the Ordnance or
it a.,--"ernment, but it was the fault of those whose duty
of ..(-is ,1•0 bring the subject under the notice of the Boat!
open reril"ee, Ihroug,h the usual and regular channe
le
tieular, that purpose. Now, the subject he wished par-
ti,V to bring under the notice of the Government
Bold that these canteens spirits were licensed to
sbe-
clitene:4 well as other articles, and the cone
rallaar of that license was the general demo-
The of the men living in the barracks.
the can
man had to give such an enormous rent to
pay cteroment for the premisics he rented, that to re-
sPieit imself he was obliged to lay an extra price on the
_Notio'an he sold. His object in bringing forward this
eon was that spirits, as an article of
liwa4l2°Ption in these canteens, might lx! done
aff4 with. He had some experience in military
recruit and he invariably found that the young
as was seduced to these places by the old soldier.,,
44 the
ea;
,3"nsequence was that evil habits were gradually
bell-'""uced, and the young soldier in a short time
of t-Ce confirmed drunkard He, therefore, complained
posee facilities which the canteen presented for this pur-
sedu ,its proximity to the barracks, and its placing the
Gov temptation constantly before his eyes. When
the:Ltiment first constructed canteens, he admitted that
ha: had a good object in view ; and as somebody must
sid,art_",n Profit on the vArig ins articles aold there, they c0n-
,711 they might as well have the profit as any one else.
qui think that the distributi.in of spirits in the can-
more was most objectionable, and there would be many
savings' banks warrants, and warrants for good
kuoUct
issued, if it was checked. It was perhaps not
which , but there was an order in existence
of gave to the commanding officer the power
whrestricting the sale of spirits in canteens;
the er„Lhe Way deem it advisable from the ill conduct of
men. But this was a privilege of which they
.never
Th_l'ed themselves, as they did not like to exercise it.
°c canteen men gave large sums to obtain the
C
niet. and there were some canteens in the
ten r°l3olis where the average expenditure of every
Others,men exceeded thirteen shillings per in, nth ;
varied in the amount of money, but it never was
orof eelreivmeen,shillings. The canteen was a fruit-
4ef,svu:els
and much of the irregularity and
rit of discipline that prevailed might be traced to it.
, Man were to be fut.n in a state of drunkenness,
the" non-commissioned officer dare not lay a hand
ups him, but must wait until a police-officer or a file
soldiers came to his assistance. The acts of in
at"...o!dination generally happened at roil call for the
evening parade, when the men were in a state of drunk
ennead, and assaulted their superiors. Now he found that
cut of 342
c,rpore..l punishments which had taken place
the army last year, 139 of them were for acts of in
subordination.. connected with drunkenness, and 70 more
'Jr drunkenness alone, making a total of upwards of 200

for offences offences connected with drunkenness. In those regi-
ments u came from India, where, and in the West
Indies, drunkenness was known to be more intense
and violent, it was a fact that corporal p inishments
were more numerous than in any other corps.
In the returns it appeared that from one regiment which
came fr.-An India the punishments were 17 in number, in
another they ware 20, and in one which came from the
Westlndies there were 18 punishments during the year. So
inveterate was the habit ot drunkenness in the West Indies,
that it was known that the wen mixed Cayenne pepper
with their spirits, in order to give them additional pun-
gency for the stomach, and it was also well known that
the drunkenness which arose from drinking spirits
in canteerns was al:vays more violent than that which
arose from taking the spirits bought out of au m, no
doubt, from the deleterious substances mixed with them.
Such a system as that, by which large profits were
raised from the moral turpitude of the people, was a
syst' m which it was the duty of the Government
seriously to consider and endeavour to put a stop
to, even though they should be compelled to give
up thereby some small portion of the revenue
which they then derived from the canteens.
He did not expect that any immediate improvement
would take place, but still it was the duty of the Go-
vernment to adopt some general mode of improvement,
some mode by which the facilities of the young
soldiers to obtain spirituous liquors would be
taken away, the old soldiers prevented from
seducing the young to spend their money
at such places, and the habits of both the young
and the old soldiers improved. And this, in his
opinion, could be only effected by prohibiting the
selling of spirits in any of the canteens.—(Hear, hear.)
Besides, all this drunkenness and debjuchery lead to an
extensive invalid system, and hence the cost of that sys-
tem was more than would be saved by reforming these
abuses. The habitual drinker was also an
expense to the country. The habitual drinker
was the man, when drunk, who made a con-
stant practice of drinking his glass at the canteen,
and was always in a state of false excitement. He never
was reported as a drunkard, and yet this man was a
source of far more expense to the country than
the habitual drunkard, because the constitution
of the one fell before that of the other.
All military officers agreed that, on the whole, the can-
teen system she uld be abolished. as the moat effectual way
to put an end to crime was to undermine it. The firet
authority he would mention was one which they would
consider of some weeght. The present Governor •
G -neral of India, Lord Hardinge, in his evi-
dence before a Commission said, that before he
left the Ordnance, he had a minute under
his consideration, with a view to put an end to this
system, which he considered a species of tax
uron the soldier. The present Adjutant- General,
Sir John M•Donald, entertained the same opinion,
and commanding officers in general considered that
these canteens were a nuisance instead of a benefit
to the soldier. Sir Edward Blakeney was of opinion
that. canteens should be better regulated, and let at a less
rate than they were. Colonel Smith said that if he, had
his will he would not permit the sale of a single glass of
rum in any canteen ; and Sir John Campbell geld the
same opinion. Bnt he would also refer to an authority
upon which the House would be inclined to place reli-
ance. He alluded to Sir George Atithur, who had been
employed in every quarter of the globe, and that also
by the present and the late Government. he says, "
We
enc urage the soldier to drink a small quantity of
spirits, hut we punish him for drinking a large—though
a small quantity disarms his power of resistance to the
large. The Gallant Officer then cited the testimony of Col.
Nls.cdougal and Colonel Macgregor, to show that none
but a confirmed drunkard would take the trouble
to dress and go out of barracks to get spirits in a morn-
ing, as also the testimony of Dr. Ferguson, who had served
both in regiments and on the staff to show how inveterate
the habit of drunkenness would become, and what hard
shies the men would undergo, and to what abomina-
tions they would descend to get spirits when it was once
formed. Dr. Fergasote who is now high in office,
had further stated that beer would not intoxicate a man
without the admixture of spirits. Was it not then a
bounden duty, on the part of the Government, to remove
this temptation from the reach of the men.
He therefore thought himself justified in bringing this
motion before the House, especially as he thought that
of late a great portion of that power which formerly
belonged to commanding by fear had been removed, and
that corporal punishment was also Cot
they reduce
ofd,
he felt justified in making an appeidßJard
Ordnance, and through them to the Cnanneller of the
Exchever, to yield up some of the r income deri-
vable from these canteens, and raise the
social and moral condition of the service, a,.(1 conduce
materially to its efficiency.—(Cheers.) The Hon. and
Gallant Member concluded by moving the tuition of
which he had given notive.
Mr. FOX MAULE said that he did not for a moment wish
to defend the system pursued to a great extent in the can
of the different barracks throughout the country, which had
been alluded to so forcibly by the Hon. and Gallant Officer who
had just sat down. But he must be allowed to say that the
remedy proposed by the Gallant Member, although founded
upon the best of principles, would not, he feared, be very easily
carried out. It would net, perhaps, be disagreeable to learn
that the minds of the authorities had been already turned to the
consideration of this question, and that they were at this mo-
ment considering in what way the canteen, could be put upon
a better footing, so as to form a part of that system
of general amelioration of the whole condition of the
soldiers, which both the authorities at the Horse Guards
and her Majesty's Government have sincerely at heart. It
will be remembered that the canteens, although attended with
considerable inconvenience when allowed to be put to improper
uses, were a great anvantage to the soldier while in barracks.
There were many articles to be obtained in these canteens,
which it would be inconvenient, on many occasions, for the
soldier to have to seek without the walls of the barracks. And
even with reference to the sale of spirits, the canteen was so
entirely under the control of the commanding officer, that, it
he chooses to exert his proper authority, and use a moderate
amount of common vigilance, many of those evils, to which
the Hon. and Gallant Officer had alluded, might in ordinary
cases; be prevented; but still he was tree to admit
that it was not easy for an officer always to
exercise the authority vested in him. He would not detain
the House by going into any of the cases mentioned by the
Hon. and Gallant Officer ; but he felt bound to admit, that
under many circumstances, the sale of spirits in the canteens
might be injurious, but the answer to that was, that total ab-
stinence from the sale of spirits might also produce evils in
another direction. The Hon. and Gallant Officer did not
trace the canteen to its original establishment. Formerly
canteens were confined to the sale of spirits exclusively, but
they were afterwards extended to other articles. Their esta-
blishment for the sale of spirits exclusively arose from the re-
gulation of excluding spirits from barracks. That regulation
gave rise to the crime of smuggling spirits into the barracks,
and canteens were established with the view of doing away
with that offence. With these observations he hoped the Hon.
and Gallant officer would not press his motion to a division,
but leave the subject in the hands of the Government.
Sir H. DOUGLAS said that it afforded him much pleasure
to know that the Government was disposed to take the canteen
system up, with a view to inquire into its operation, and to
remedy the evils which might be found in it. Much of the
present system arose from abuses that had gradually crept into
the system. In a command which he himself had, and that not
long ago, a sum was paid for wine for the officers' mess, derived
from the profits of the canteen system. He believed it would
never be placed on a proper footing until both Government
and the canteens ceased to derive profit from the quantity of
luor consumed in those places. He would throw it out for
the consideration of the Right Hon. Gentleman (M. F. Mettle)
whether these canteens could not be made a desirable and
moral adjunct to the barrack-room, so as to become a place of
resort for a very different purpose than intemperance. He
would not, however, permit the profits of such an institution to
go either to the Government or to the canteen, but to be
spent in some wholesome and profitable manner to the advan-
tage of the soldier; and he ehought if fhey were changed to
the fund system, and appoint a canteeneer to superintend the
institution in a moral and judicious manner, it would put an
end to those pernicious indulgences which he had long seen
and deeply regretted.
Mr. GOULBURN was exceedingly glad to hear the state-
ment made by the Hon. Gentleman opposite, but still he must
assert that the House were greatly indebted to the Gallant
Meer for havipg given to the House the results of his expe-
rience and inquiries. Yet, as the Right Hon. Secretary• at-
War had stated that the subject of canteens was at the present
moment under the consideration of the Government, he would
perhaps act wisely in the withdrawal of his motion on the pre-
sent occasion.
Celenel ANSON quite concurred with the Gallant General
opposite, that any plan which would be likely to promote the
improvement of the soldier it was the bounden duty of the
Government to entertain, and, if necessary, to pursue. But
he felt compelled to call the attention of the Gallant
Officer, by whom this question had been introduced
to the fact that so far back as 1838 the.
Government of the day had expressly stated that they
were quite ready to adopt any suggestion which was likely to
prove of practical benefit. But it should likewise be remem-
bered, that by the regulations as they at present stood, the
commanding officer had full power to direct the canteens, as it
appeared by the regulations now in force. It should also be
recollected, that these canteens were taken by tenders, and
not only was security given for payment of the rent, but also
for the good conduct of the parties by whom they were taken ;
and in the event of the orders not being obeyed, the occupier
was subject to ejectment.
Sir De LACY EVANS begged to tender his grateful
thanks to the Gallant Officer, for the pains which he had
taken to bring this subject before the House, a subject which
might not be felt to be of interest to the House, but which was
of great importance to the profession. He was also glad that
it was, according to the statement of GheeSecrenttryat-
War, to be taken in hand by the
rnme; yet
he must observe that it was plainly evident from the
the extracts
which had been read by the Gallant Officer, that
manding officers of regiments felt themselves in a difficulty as to
the direction of these establishments. He entirely concurred
in the proposition of establishing a canteeneer, and it would be
much better if no property was derived from the canteen. 11
a non-commissioned officer was placed at the head of the de-
partment, and taught to expect promotion if he conducted it
well, there would be a great advantage conferred upon the
army if such a preposition was carried into effect.
Mr. STUART WORTLEY said he was anxious to give
his tribute of thanks to the Hon. and Gallant Officer for the
zeal which he had shown upon the subject. He believed that
nine-tenths of the offences which were committed in the army
arose from the crime of intoxicaeon.
The Earl of ARUNDEL said that he also felt most grateful
to his Gallant Friend :or the able exposition with which he had
favoured the H use, of the ill effects of the distribution of
spirits in the canteen on the discipline of the army.
Colonel LINDSEY said that he felt most flattered by the
praises which had been been bestowed upon him. Having
called the attention of the House to the subject, he would beg
leave to withdraw his motion.
The motion was then withdrawn.
CULTIVATION OF THE LAND IN IRELAND.
On the order of the day being read for going into Com-
mittee of Supply,
Mr JOHN O'CONNELL desired to draw the attention of
the House to the motion, of which he had already given
notice, namely, of his intention to bring under the con-
sideration of the House the advisability of employing
the labouring population, now engaged upon public
works in Ireland, in the cultivation of the soil. The
destitution which prevailed in that country was frightful ; by
the last accounts which they had received, no fewer than
730,000 persons were weekly employed upon the public works
in Ireland It was a notorious fact, that the arable land was
lying notified from the want of means of its proprietors. He,
therefore, objected to this system of employment, as the works
would not be by any means piailae tive of one r r f the benefit,
as the same &succubi. L o t eproducevr :rt., directed to-

wards the cultivation of the s til. The question, then, was, '
whether itesvould nit be better to turn the people to its cultiva-
term, as it was at tl e present moment so greatly neglected. In
F. ante the amount of food destroyed was far more that ever
anticipated, and the French press held out gloomy prospects for
the future. The prospects of France were the general pros-
pects of the continent. The grand jury of Longford had passed
a resolution calling upon the Government to employ the people
thus in preference to wasting their labour upon the public roads
He understood that that resolution would be followed up-by
others from the grand juries of the different counties if the
Government refused attention to the demand made upon them.
He desired to state that a Mr. Brennan, in the county of
sleath, seeing the deficiency of the cultivation of the land, has
offered, and given, premiums to such of his tenants as had cul-
tivated theirs. If the system which he proposed were carried
out, some assurance ought to be given the people that thcy
would be insured the fruits of their labour, as the crops would
be seized by the landlords. When the people were at present
spoken to for not having made same exertion, their excuse was,
that if they tilled they would derive no benefit from their in-
dustry. If some Members considered that such a scheme was
too extensive, they should recollect that the same amount at
present expended would suffice ; they should alsoremensber they
could not retrench their present expenditure—such was the
enormous extent of the calamity which had befallen the country.
He was very sorry to see that a Noble Lord in another place
had been reported to have said that Ireland should look to
herself, and that she should depend upon her owe exertions.
Now he was sorry to say .hat she was incapable of doing more
than she had or was doing. He considered that the expression
would be injurious, as it would indispose those elm might
otherwise be inclined, and prevent them from extending their
aid should the necessity of the Irish people outgrew its present
extent. There had been some observations about economy,
but the people had nothing to be economised about ; their
whole stock had been consumed, nay, even their seed for the
next year has been wanted to supply their present necessities.
Their heaps of manure had even been sold, by which
they had hoped to cultivate the soil. There has only
been ten millions proposed, to meet this fearful
necessity. He could assure the House that one-half rents
would not be paid this year. There had also been a great deal
of talk of the amount of money at present lodged in the
savings' banks, and much clamour had been raised upon the
subject ; but what were the facts? Why, the money placed
there had been placed by those about to emigrate, and ex-
actly that very class whose loss would at the present pressure
be severely felt. But even more than that, the excesses of
Great Britain of money lodged in savings' banks ten years ago
was fifteen millions; at the present moment it was
twenty-five ; so they might see that the amount of
money lodged there could not be so much. He
desired to express his heartfelt admiration at the charity
of England towards the people of Ireland, and in doing so he
would take occasion to observe that the House of Commons
ought to take some steps to enforce the expenditure of the
absentee rents in Ireland. While the resident landlords in
certain districts had subscribed about 15e. in the pound to •
wards the relief of the destitute, the absentee landlords in
many instances had not subscribed above a farthing in the
pound of their rental. What he submitted was wanted in
Ireland was gradually to abstract the people from the public
works, and without breaking up the machinery in operation at
present, place the persons so abstracted to the cultivation of
the soil. By so doing they would remove all danger in making
the transition. If this were done he hal no doubt but that
barony presentments would be as readily got for the cultivation
of the lanai as for the construction of public works. Another
thing which he would suggest to be done would be a measut e to
produce peace between the landlords and the tenants, and
to secure to the latter the value of any improvements they
they might effect in their holdings. There ought, in addition
to arrangements of this kind, be a law to compel the proprietors
of land to come and reside on their properties, so that the
rents which they receive instead of being spent out of the
country might be spent in it. By this step alone 5,000,0004
would be saved to Ireland every year. lie hosted that the Go-
vet nment would take these matters into its most serious con-
sideration as they were of the utmost importance to Ireland at
the present time.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said it must not be supposed that he
was surprised at, or censured the motion of, the Hon. Member.
The condition of Ireland was so alarming that he was not at
all astonished that he should think it his duty to impress the
subject on the attention of the House. The Hon. Member
would do him (Mr. Labouchere) and the Government the
justice of supposing that if anything more than another would
have stimulated them to greater exertion than they had made,
would have been the patient endurance of the suffering
people of Ireland.—(Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had laid
before the House certain proposals, and he (Mr. Labouchere)
felt it his duty on the part of the Government to state distinctly
his opinion on them, so as there may be no doubt and uncer-
tainty in the matter. He would, therefore, in answer, say it
was not merely the duty of the Government not to adopt the
course proposed, but that it was impracticable and unprin-
cipled. The Government had already done that which no
executiveal)uabuses.
But could
the take a ke
oetweerhdyi
aoteohgt Governmentr
ntohaehuipvonitlui
otherwise
gst:.hh,
Government had ever yet done before; it had attempted to
employ the great body of the people—a step which no
riskingd
ttahenedie employment
mnnt
woawtoat
abuses'
sfohgue
urtoes
leengdsei
ehr:
pauhlgreatestcit
rcumstances
that; might
mayeet t
nhri
with
evgne risksy,ttsdoit
ehatd:hrohai
the
tel
foropen,w proceededahcabradeywrt
oaahfulestyheo.aortetf
horror
e
land from one end to the other.—( Hear, heir.) But there
ir
d
were various reasons into which at present he would not go at
country,
They
they eteiy:ot, r
length. Why, they could not proceed with the employment of
the people in this way. They were now employing, according
to the latest accounts, an organised body of 700,000 on i üblic
works, a fact unexampled in history, and here he would re-
mark that justice had not as yet been done to those who had
had the direction and superintendence of these works. Those
who had had the superintendence, had throughout their ardu- t
ous undertaking shown the greatest ability, zeal, and spirit in
carrying out the arrangements of the Board of Works. Had
they not done so the greatest evils and abuses would have arisen.
Another, and a serious evil, threatened them. The time had
arrived when the soil required to be cultivated for the coming
harvest, and had they decided to go on with the public works.
the consequence would have been, there would have been no
one to cultivate it. But though the Government had deter-
mined to stop the public works, had they therefore abandoned
the people? No ; but they had introduced another system to
meet the state of the country. They had decided not to em-
ploy them, but to give them food. He would not say that this
would not be accomparied with great evil, and was a proceed-
ing also foreign to the functions of a Government ; but he said
of this, as he said of the system of the Board of Works, the Go-
verement did not adopt it. They did not consider it free of evils,
but because they thought it freer of evils and abuses than any
other. At the same time, every exertion would be made by
the relief committees to check any evil that might be de-
veloped under the system now proposed to be adopted.
Yet, though the system of supplying food in
this way might be liable to abuse and evils, they
could nut, as a Christian legislature, and as Christian men,
allow pestilence and famine to spread over Ireland without
doing every thing in their power to relieve them. But the lion.
Member wanted the Government to go a step further, and to
directly interfere in the cultivation of the soil. He (Mr. La-
bouchere) told him that it was impossible for the Government
to at tempt such a thing ; or, if they did, it would be a deploy.
able failure.—(hear, hear.) It would paralyze all individual
exertion, anti would produce nothing in the country but evil.
For the Government. therefore to do so, would be to go en-
tirely be} and their functions. The same applied to the supply
of seed for grain. To supply such seed was a thing which no
Government would attempt to do, and it would lead to irrepar-
able mischief. With respect to the cultivation of the soil to
prepare for the coming harvest, that was a question of the
greatest importance. He rejoiced, however, to say, that he had
received intelligence from Ireland to the effect that the land
was in course of cultivation, though he regretted to say all
districts did not exhibit the same satisfactory results. Still he
hoped there would be no difficulty on this head ; and he trusted
that. the landed proprietors of Ireland—though he admitted in
many respects they had not the power to do a great deal in the
matter—would do every thing they could to assist their poor
countrymen. The income of the Government for the relief of
destitute persons, he had no doubt, would have
the effect of liberating the labour of Ireland, and that it would
he now employed in the propagation of the soil.—( The Right
Hon. Gentleman here read an extract from a report of Major
Fitzgerald, a Government inspector in the county of Clare, to
the effect that the people under him were gradually returning
to the cultivation of the land, and that in one week no less than
1,00 persons left.)—Such were the proceedings new going
forward ; and he begged to state that everything would be
done by the Irish Government to administer the new law in
he way best calculated to advance this desirable meveinent.
Ni.w, a fee- %lords relating to absentees. While he knew that
.ome of those proprietors had done their duty in subscribing
liberally to meet the present crisis, others had shamefully
neglected their duty, and left the r silent proprietors the task
of meeting the difficulties. lle must say, that at the present
time Ireland was the proper place for Irish landed proprietors
to reside ; but, at the same time, it public opinion would not
induce them to live there. he did not think a resolution of that
use would have the effect. Respecting the law of landlord
and tenant which had been referred to, a Bill, as already inti-
mated, would be introduced into the House on an early day.
He would not longer trespass on the House, but conclude with
assuring the Hon. Member that the state of Ireland would re-
ceive the anxious attention of the Government, and if they did
not take his suggestions, it was because they did not think they
would tend to the improvement of that country.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. SHAW quite concurred in the opinion of the Right.
Honourable Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, that any in-
terference on the part of the Government would tend only to
paralyze the exertions of the people without producing any really
beneficial result. He feared, however, that some evils might
arise from suddenly throwing out of employment the great
number of labourers emi loved on public works, and upon
whose exertions were depending for their maintenance, on a
moderate calculation, 3,000,M0 persons. He had received se-
veral letters from Ireland upon this subject, stating that greater
abuses would, no doubt, take place under the proposed mode
of relief than existed even under the Labour Rate Act, in
consequence of the greater temptations which would exist for
fraud upon the parts of the persons applying for )(s-
-lid. He hoped that the Government would adopt
speedy means to render the transition from the one state to
the other as little injurious to the interests of the people
as possible. Difficulties must, no doubt, exist under all modes
of relief, but the only alteration the Government could adopt,
was either to submit to these difficulties, or to allow the people
to starve.
Mr. BELLEW thought that an efficient poor-law would be
the best possible remedy for the evil of absenteeism, justly
eemplained of by the Right Hon. the Secretary for Ireland.
With respect to the public works, he slid not think that they
had been so entirely useless as they were supeoiesl by some
persons to have been.
Mr. FITZGERALD thought, as the present was the
sowing season in Ireland, the Government should do
something, in the present state of the country, to
assist the people of Ireland to obtain the necessary
seed, and encourage the people in the cultivation of
the land. He most cordially concurred in the opinions ex.
pressed by the Hon. Member for Kilkenny (Mr. O'Connell),
and he hoped that the Government would yet see the neces-
sity of adopting the suggestions of the Hon. Member. He
thought it a most unfortunate thing that the question of sup-
plying seed to the people of Ireland, had been mentioned at all
by the Government. In his own experience, he had known
of many instances of persons having consumed their seed,
trusting to Government for a fresh supply. He thought that
some strong resolution should be passed by both Houses of the
1 headed the Sovereigherself, oring or
Legislature, are
ding the absentee landlords to go in and live imploring
Ireland;
cat'unalTan se
events until the next harvest, and there by their home-
voleece and example, assist in raising the condition of the people,
and removing the enormous burden thrown upon the nation.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was quite willing to follow the
had b.• en expressed b fore, and he could say
opinions which ere willng to abide the
fir the Government that they 're
he Hon. Member for)'Kil-
question which had been raised by
thatt the were not int lined
kenny ; but he must distinctly say
1 • and the •
were quite
to undertake the tillage of the lan( ,
ie., which that Hon. Member
ready to follow the strong warn
It 'al given to them. When last year the sum of 50,0001. were
the country, it was distinct y
voted for the improvement o
f asserted that it was of little use. He hail hoped that
sus,
which he knew was only applicable to particu a ases,
ry benefit ;
would have at least sufficed for tempora
but a Noble Lord had told them that all the be fit
that would accrue was only a monetary relief, for it
would only suffice for the 1 urehase of 25,000 quarters
of oats. He de 'ply regretted to hear that the farmers were
s
not prepared with seed; but he believed, from the inqui it's he
had made, that tillage would be more extensively resumed than

was generally supposed, and that tillage would go on as soon
as the proper season arrived. He would ask if these changes
were to be aqoptetl, what uas to become of the army of 11,000
auditors now engaged on the supervision of the public works?
Not ten times that number would suffice for the purpose. He
believed that the tillage would be extensively resumed ; but he
founded his hope on the presumption that no false impressions
would be spread of the amount of assistance to be derived from
this country.
Mr. HAMILTON thought sufficient justice had not been
done to the officers of the hoard of Works in Ireland. When
they recollected the gigantic task which those gentlemen had
to perform, and that they had the management of 700,100 men,
and the order and regularity with which those works proceeded,
they would be satisfied that they had a most onerous duty to
perform, and would allow that it was well executed. It would,
therefore, be manifestly unjust to impose additional duty upon
them. With respect to the proposition that the Government
should undertake the tillage of the land, he quite agreed with
the Noble Lord who had just sat down, that it would be highly
injudicious on the part of the Government to undertake the
tillage of the land, for he felt assured that it would have a very
paralysing effect. There would, in his opinion, be no necessity
fur any strong er imperative measures either upon the landlords
or the tenants in Ireland. He mentioned this because he thoughtit
but right that other Members should share the responsibility of
these statements.—(" Hear," from the 'Ministerial benches. )
But there was one thing which he thought might be attended
to, and it was of great importance, because he believed that
many Hon. Members were not aware of the number of act es
that were out of cultivation in Ireland. This was very likely
owing to a certain extent to the practice that had lately occur-
red, of the farmers leaving their farms. In the west of Ireland
this was particularly the case, and he thought that some tribu-
nal might be erected for arbitration between the landlord and
the tenant. Such a tribunal might give, say six months, for
the opportunity (to the tenants) of retrieving their property, or
at least give them compensation for the losses and expenses
which they had sustained.
Mr. B. ESCOTT was more and more of opinion the
longer he lived, that not only would the adoption of any ex-
traordinary measures for Ireland not be beneficial, but would
be absolutely injurious. The only two things that could, in
his opinion, be done, was, in the first place, to allow the
free importation of grain into Ireland, and the second was,
the adoption of a system of strict economy. If those who
were in the possession of wealth would set the example of
that economy. It was a well known fact, that if the bran
were to be ground up with the grain, there would be an in-
crease of at least one-third to the farinaceous food of the
people, and would not only also increase it, but would
actually constitute a better and more wholesome food for
man. The consequence of this would be, that the dreadful
calamity with which the country was now oppressed, would be
to an immeasurable extent relieved. At the present time
there were large exports of wheat to Paris, and this very day
a large quantity had been sold for that purpose at :!iark Lane,
at 765. a quarter. The same was done last Monday, and by
a little management, all this out-going would be saved.
There then was sufficient reason for the adoption of the eco-
nomy which he recommended.
The subject then dropped.
On
theDmEoFtEieNn CaEgSniOngF
inTtnHaECSoomUmTittHenCoOf AsSniTp.ly
being
again read,
Colonel RICE begged most earnestly to call the attention
of the Government to the important works which were voted
for during the last session, and he trusted that in the estimates
for the present year that sufficient amount would be taken to
render the defences of our southern coast secure. It might be
alleged that the sum required was large, and that it could be
ill spared ; but it should be recollected that if large, it was
necessary, and great as it might be, was not larger in a whole
year than was now sent in one month to Ireland. The French
wed, in this instance, set us a worthy example, for they bad
been active for years past in protecting their coast. But
we seemed to have exchanged characters with them, for while
we were only talking, they had been earnestly at work. We
were proud of our naval superiority, and well had it been sup-
ported. Yet it should be recollected that even before the days
of steam navigation, that demonstrations had been made against
the southern coasts of England, and it attention to the state of
our defences was necessat y then, it was doubly necessary now,
and he earnestly trusted that the matter would not be neglected
by the Government.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY—ORDANCE ESTIMATES.
On the order of the day being again read,
Sir HOWARD DOUGLAS, for himself and his Gallant
Friends who had given notices of motions, begged to postpone
them to some future day.
The House then went into Committee, and
Colonel ANSON said, that in rising to bring forward the
Ordnance Estimates for the year, he I,lt proud to notice the
observations which had been
h made by the In
Mem-
ber for Montrose, who, e was serry to see, was net
then in his place. That Honour able Member had last
year stated, that h t was quite willing to suffer the naval and
military estimates for the year to be proposed without a word
of observation from him, although the several sums were 30
largely increased. He had this year thrown out a caution, in
which he (Col. Anson) entirely concurred anti fully assented
to the proposition, that it was the duty of every functionary of
Government, however largo the sums might be at his com-
mand, to use them with the most sparing economy, and to
bring every charge within the smallest possible limit of practi-
cable economy. But economy ceesisted as much in the appli-
cation of the money used, as in the amount to be applied to the
purposes for which it was voted. And in considering the
greet and extensive colonial empire now under the charge
of the British authorities, he conceived that a greater wisdom
would be shown in the conservancy of the whole by a judicious
expenditure, than by risking a part through too thrifty an
outlay. He could assure the House that the utmost endea-
vours had been used to arrive at accuracy in the estimates, and
if they were larger than last year, it was net from any desire
to avoid economy, but partly from the circumstance that the
last was an irregular year, and so could not fairly be compared
with this. The whole amount which he proposed for the
ordnance estimates for the three services was, '2,679,127/. For
the year 1846-7, it was 2,543,5691., showing a total of increase
this year of 135,558'. But if Hon. Members would turn to
the first page of the abstract, they would find that there were
three different votes—vote 2, vote 4, anti vote 9—in which
there was a deficiency amounting together to the sum of
67,2991. So that the actual increase was only 68,2891. upon
the last year. The sum which he proposed to take for the
military ordnance was 673,2391: the sum voted for 1846-7.
was 579,670/., making an increase of 41,6911. on the year,
These items were to be divided between the engineers, the
sappers and miners, and the artillery. On the estimates for
the corps of engineers there was an increase of 5,578/., but
this did not arise from any addition to the force, but from their
having beers worn out, and from their more constant employ-
ment ; and all knew that from the eminent position which the
officers and men of that corps were held in by the scientific
world, that their services were eagerly sought for wherever
their assistance could be obtained. Ile would pass to the
Sappers and Miners, and he must say that that body was com-
posed of the most efficient men. There was no increase in the
establishment. He now came to the Artillery. It was found
neees-ary to add 1,200 men to that establishment. They
had found no difficulty in getting recruits, but they had
endeavoured to manage as economically
as possible. He
thought no gentleman would say that the increase was too
great, for, when he considered the extent of tl.e colonies, it
must appear a matter of surprise that they should perform
their duties as well as they had done. The next vote
was for the commissariat department. This year it
was proposed to grant 370,464/. The excess over last
year was in consequence of the increase in the
the price of fodder. The distress in Ireland in e
some deg
a'so contributed to the increase. The actual increase was
only 12,507, and it should be remembered that last year
the votes were only for three-fourths of the year, while at
present, the estimate was for the whole year. The next
vote was for the salaries and contingencies of the ordnance
department at the Tower. He believed there was no body of
re
men more efficient. There was a decrease in the number of the
men employed, which was owing to the substitution of police in
the
employed. The increase was owing
the Tower. The next item to which he would allude, was
number of artificers that it was found necessary to employ in
repairs at Woolwich and other places where the sal" ,was re
quired. The 6th vote was for ordnance stores. For tnat year
,
t hey asked 368,712', while last year it was 3960841' and was an
actual increase that year of 21,0 )o'. The estimate for shot,
to
for the labourers
shells, Rec., was 4,731/. more than that of last year. The next vote
was for works at home and abroad, and it was proposed to grant
for that purpose 632.7631. Last year the grant was 611,9861'
and the actual increase for that year was 22,709/. A greatf
sures to secure their sea-ports, even though
change had taken place by the substitution of steam vesselsk or
sailing vessels; but he thought they were bound to
hadta evmneivae-
it eat
had acted
cised a wise discretion in the manner in which
they had acted
in reference to this particular for, instead of, as before, ex.
an increased outlay. He thought that Government
in reference reference to this particular ; for, instead of,
pending large sums of money on their colonies, theays
I out largo
employ them at home. It was thought right toh.ay
They had
(Trout.
sums on such places as sheefness and Ply
h there were
also to expend large sums on barracks, of whic
was very volu-
-38 new ones established. From the list, which
intended to
0/. less than it,
167 in Ireland. The vote for surveys
was
3,7e5d that the Irish
the previous year. The Government expect
d.
Consh'erable
Ordnance survey would be shortly complete
urinous, it appeared there were 205 barracks in England, an,
complaints had arisen as to the sum
reasons existed
as compared to Scotland, but very good The
voteig that the Irish survey should be completed
for civil and military non-effective service was 165,.,3(
which was an excess of 46,0001. over the vote of last year.
This vote would be accounted for, by the increase in the
expended in Ireland
military service, and by the fact, that many departmentsur had
fallen into this estimate which did not formerly oc . He
had also a right to set (AT against this excess, the additional
service he would obtain in the artillery, and the advantages
he would gain in the obtaning additional forage.
3lr. WII.I.IANIS said that they were called on to vote away seven
millions of money, and daring the statement of tte Gallant Officer
there were only twenty-nine Members in the House ; and his best
course, therefore, might be to follow the example of his Friend,
Mr. Hume, upon a former occasion, and remain ;lieut. lie thanke,l
tits lion. Friend ter furnishing a comparative statement, as the
ilouse had thereby a better means of judging of the economy which
to answer to the Hon. Member, ob-
Nu'achri.ouus
ibldater-
had been maintained. He could not see the reason of the increase,
:tnd lie cane,' for an explanation. If he was to go throtp2.l.l the esti-
mates, he would be able to show that a reduction could be made in
notak too The
much. every item ; but he knew, under present circumstances, it was per-
fectlysir
t°l,%;‘[tslotit)arDt9rOl;LtnOrditance Department being too much
useless. The House would pay attention to the matter.
aerved
possible. He defended the late
teries both of this country and the colonies, were not half
dstucaaontuiiilettdiei,e.
and he therefore rejoiced at the increav of 1,200 men.
d 11:::::1:11etrhedoulgth:atnsosteislltiitiaiartteoowtayse
the circumstances of the country, it was necessary that this branch
1. ANSON briefly explained. The new barale:-
Government from any charge that while in office they I
named any expensive or improper experiments.
`olViieTower would be completed as soon as possible.
nowitlNG complained that the whole of the ordnance of the service should be as efficient as
Dr.
mit-
mates had been greatly increased at a period when the le people of
this country Were coiled upon to make the greatest sacrifices, in
plain
order to afford relief to their starving countrymen. He
wen ces,
ed,
also, that the accounts were made out in the way they were, and
hoped that that would be the last ocersion in which they
would be
made out on such a plan. There were deduct ens for appropriations
and other matters; this they were rendered unintelligible, "s
l°Priati
exact expenditure arrived at with difficulty. Th, - and the
toncy ought to go
tht cugh the Treasury in the ordinary course.
After a short conversation, the vote was agreed to.
The following votes were then agreed to:-
670,239/. ter allowances of the ordnance military corps.
370,464/. for the commissariat, including barrack
supplies, cloth-
ing, great coats, Ste.
9,i.414/. to defray the salaries of persons em
oyed in the Ordnance-

office.
228,1301, salaries and allowance to persona employed in the Ord-
defraying the cost of labour in connexion with the
department in the colonies.
Ordnance
68,711/. for Ordnance stores.
3The stun of 633,7651 was then granted for the ex; ruse of the Ord-
nance barrack works and repairs.
. rFeuELL said that he observed a statement in the
Captain • ,
" Times," that a high wall had been erected arouni the Woolwich
Military Academy, for the purpose of keeping the Cadets from walk-
ing about the streets o!'.
the town. He wished to know if there was
any truth in the report
Cole el ANSON sad that no report had yet been made to the
House with respect to the Woolwich Academy. He recommended
Hon. Members not to believe all they saw in the newspapers. -
(Laughter.) The tact was, that a palisade had been erected for the
purpose of preventing improper persons getting in, but not to pre-
ven
d of 16'3,5321., for the purpcoe of defray-
liirgonpOonsti free tI v e military and naval services for
next yeur,
ttiti
hsse7f, netting
then agreed to.
inn
'l'lle House then proceeded to consider the navy estimates.
Sir 11. DOUGLAS expressed his regret that the Government bad
not t.ll,eit ineasurei to secure AI l efficient naval reserve force similar
to that which existed in France. The whole establishment of the
French fleet consisted of 29,000 men, and they had established fleets

at the live principal ports. The establishments of the gun-
r ery department at each of these five ports, beside the
gunnery frigates, were such that they could put 6 000 men on board
at any morneet. Never had any country made such progress
as France bad since the war. At the close of 1815 her commercial
as web as her royal marine was. completely destroyed, and yet never
was she in such a position of power as at the present moment. At
Cherbourg, L'Orient, Toulon, Marseilles, and Bourdeaux, she had the
most complete establishments, and the officials could put a most com-
plete armament on board at any moment, anti he trusted that no
false, no inferior notions of economy, would prevent the Government
irons putting the navy into such a state of preparation as—although
we never wot Id commit any otteesive and injurious acts that should
lead to a war—would citable us to inflict in the first instance such a
dreadful blow as would give a whole turn to the contest.
Dr. BO WRING said that the Gallant General had held strange
language, for while lie had been extolling the increase of the
French navy, he had altogether overlooked the advance of our own,
with which the advance of the French nary was, indeed, tardy.
Me did not hesitate to say, that as compared with the English navy,
it was totally in a state of weakness, and utterly unable to compete
with our own. He was glad to say that it was universally con-
fessed that the British navy was, beyond all comparison, superior to
that of any other in the world. What was thecase? Why, while
the two successive Administrations had been gradually reducing
the hordes. on the people of this country, the French Government,
on the contrary, were, year after year, getting deeper and deeper
into debt, until, after thirty years of peace, that country was so
deeply involved, that the Ministry were afraid to meet the
Chambers. Whether in political influence, commercial success,
warlike power, or finaneial position, there was no comparison
between the two countries.—(Hear.) He could not sit down
without adverting to a most admirable change in the dockyards
which had been made by the present Government, which was likely
to keep the navy in a still greater state of efficiency than ever it had
been before.
Sir HOWARD DOUGLAS—Had the Hon. Gentleman read the
pamphlet of the Prince de Joinville ?
Dr. BOWRING—Yes, certainly; and it was a confession of their
weakness.
Mr. WILLIAMS was not quite so satisfied with this increase of
the expense as some Hon. Gentlemen appeared to be. He found that
the estimate taken for the whole of the cost was 5,661,0001., and,
upon a comparison with late years, he found that there had been an
increase of not less than upwards of 3,009,000/., and that, too, in a
time of profound peace.
Sir CHARLES NAPIER perfectly concurred in all that had fallen
from the Gallant General (Sir Howard Douglas). He did not, how-
ever, at all agree with the statement of the Hon. Gentleman
opposite (Mr. Williams)—(Hear and laughter)—because if they were
to take his advice, the defence of the country would be impaired,
and perhaps an opportunity thereby afforded to the French of
passing 50,000 or 60,000 men into this country should they feel
inclined to do so. He wished to bear his testimony to the way in
which the Hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr.
Ward) had brought ferwavd the questions so interesting to the navy.
It had been admitted by every Secretary to the Admiralty, and by
every Lord of the Admiralty, for some years, that jobbing to a
large extent had existed in our dockyards. Now he sincerely
wished that the Hon. Gentleman had been authorised to go a step
further than his predecessors had gone; and, in addition to making
such an admission, had issued an order like the one recently issued
by the Custom-house, which he supposed was issued by the permis-
sion of the First Lord of the Treasury. It stated that the friends or
clerks, employes, and others, making use of private interest for the
purpose of raising them from their different stations, would find that
a very opposite result would take place Now he confessed he should
like to have seen a paper issued by the First Lord of the Admiralty,
stating that those connected with the navy must only expect
to attain promotion by their own exertions, and that if they
applied to " Lord this " or " Lord that " for such is purpose,
that their progress would be effectually put a stop to.—(Hear.) The
workmen in the respective dockyards wanted better superintendence,
and this might be effected if the superintendents and ether officers
were strictly honest. which he regretted was unfrequently the case.
—(Hear and laughter). The mode in which persons were :appointed
was pregnant of evil. If the names of three persons were brought
to the Admiralty, two of whom were Whigs and, the other a Tory,
no doubt the Whigs would stand a far better chance of being ap-
pointed than the other.—(Laughter.) Why, it needed no ghost from
the grave to tell them that this was the invariable practice. (Mr. Ward
dissented.) The Non. Gentleman shook his head, but the statement
was correct. The great fault of the management of the dockyards
was that a superintendent was not allowed to man h.s yard as a
captain manned his ship, and to discharge the men if they neglected
their duty. If this power were vested in him he would " keep a good
look out," and prevent a continuation of this jobbing. Ile (Sir C.
Napier) had been endeavouring for five years to impress the neces-
sity of a thorough revision of the dockyard system upon the Govern-
ment ; but he had never received any assistance in his labours until
the present session, as he found the Secretary to the Admiralty
stating that the " Government did not get a fair day's work
for a fair day's wages." (Hear, hear, amid laughter.) Then again,
the lion. Gentleman the Member for Portsmouth (Mr. Baring)
admitted that many ships were not built in a proper manner, as mis-
takes had been made from time to time in their construction. We
had also the published statement of a gentleman who was connected
with the Admiralty during the late Administration (Mr. Corry),
that, " considering the large expense of building and preparing ships,
the most careful revision of the practice and proceedings
of the dockyards is urgently required, as much for the purpose
of saving expense, as for the purpose of promoting regularity."
Ile should like to know from the Secretary of the Admiralty whe-
ther those thirty-three iron vessels were in his opinion adapted tor
war or not? There was one other question also which he wished to
ask him He was desirous to know it he intended to revise the
articles of war with a view to make titans more humane ? In these
days of modifying and abolishing corporal punishment, he thought
the Admiralty should take this subject into their consideration.
Before he sat down he also wished to impress upon the Admiralty
the propriety of increasing the number of ship-carpeeters in their
employment. The pay of this class of persons was so small that
they were obliged to employ joiners to carry on the works, and he
hoped that, as soon as a vessel was out of commiseion,
they would lay on the table a statemnt of the exi wises she
incurred while in co nmissien, as he beiievee i such an account would
be extremely satisfactory. If the Admiralty would follow these few
hints which he had thrown out, he had no doubt but they would he
attended with the best results. With regard to those iron vessels, it
was proved, if they were struck with a shot, the effect was Just the
same as if " you put your finger through a piece of brown paeer."
Now, what would be the consequence, he would ask, if one of
these vessels was struck with a 32 or a 68-pounder ? If the lion.
ourable Gentleman did not know. lie (Sir Charles Napier)
would tell him, she would go to the bottom like a stone.
Capt. BERKELEY thought that the Gallant Admiral (Napier)
should not have alluded to the iron vessels, as the Secretary for the
Admiralty had already stated that iron vessels were not tilted
for
the proposes of war. lie himself did not think they were adapted
for such a purpose.
Mr. CORRY would only make one or two remarks on the subject.
The Hon. Member for Wiltshire seemed to think that a good deal of
jobbing had been practised in the appointments in the dock yards:
but he could assure the Hon. Gentleman thst while he (Mr. Corry)
was in office, no such jobbing was carried on. The appointments of
the late Government were founded upon the merits of the parties ap-
pointed, and not with the view, as the Honourable Member
would seem to insinuate, to secure sinister support. With regard to
the fitness of iron for steam vessels he would not contend that iron was
suite 1 for tile purposes of vessels of war, but with regard to vessels
to he employed in services of a general character, he entertained an
entirely different opinion, and In support of that opinion he need only
mention that he had received a letter tram Captain Hosken, wherein
he stated, that had the Great Britain bet n made of wood instead 01
iron she must have gone to pieces long ago. Ile maietained,
therefore, that iron was the best material for constructing vessels
to be used for general purposes. When they said so much of the de-
' fects of Iron vessels. they should recollect that wooden vessels were
not able to resist the effects of shot, but they had otten been burnt
from the shots fired into them. That was an incoevenience to which
iron vessels were not subject. It was said that a shot fired into an iron
vessel passed through one side and entered the other, but this must
have arisen from the slight scantlings of the iron, and the same con-
sequences would result to wooden vessels, if made up proportionably
slight. It could not be denied, however, that if they were objection-
able as war vessels, they would make very good troop ships.
Captain HARRIS said that it would be most advisable that a sum
of money should be voted as a supplementary estimate, for the pur-
pose of raising the pay of petty officers, and that such a measure
should go pari passe with secondary punishments.
Captain PECHELL desired to know what votes the Government
were anxious to obtain, as he wished to hear the observation which
the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir James Graham) intimated he would
make ?
Mr. WARD said that he could not expect the House to enter into
the whole question of the estimates, as Hon. Gentlemen would have
another opportunity of addressing the House.
Sir J. GRAHAM said he was aftaid that any observations which
he might make in reference to this vote, and the paper which had
been laid upon the table, would be of little value, because his expe-
rience at the Board of the Admiralty, wen n
of very late date.
-But he must say that the idea of the patronage
of the dockyards being monopolised by the Secretaries
of the Admiralty was altogether unknown in his time. In fact the
Secretaries exercised no patronage, except in the appointtnent of
chap'ains. He said that he had held the office of Secretary to the
Admiralty for two years, upon the general election after the Reform
Act, and before he left that board, he could perceive the operation
of the right to return Members to Parliament tor Chatham, Ports-
mouth, and other places ; and he must say, that if these political
feelings prevailed further in the service of the Government, he feared
they must resort to the old usage of the statute in reference to their
servants, which was, that all who were employed in
the collection of the revenue, should not possess the
qualification of voting. He instanced the coast-guard as
a case nearly analogous to the present. Still, he theueht,
this plan brought forward by the Admiralty was such, that
it ought to have a fair trial, and therefore he would give it
his support most gladly, in order that the experiment might be made.
If the experiment of the Admiralty fail, then he would most certainly
recommend the extreme remedy of disqualification.
Mr. WARD was extremely gratified at t to favourable opinion ex-
pressed by the it:ght Hon. Baronet, and he could assure him that
eeerything woul I be done to g we effect to the plan which be had
spoken of so highly. Ile was also of opinion that the officers in the
dockyards would co-operate in giving the plan a fair trial. Should
it, however, fail, he had no objection to the extreme remedy of dis-
qualification recounnenden.
Sir HOWARD DOUGLAS expressed himself in favour of the plan.
Mr. T. BARING begged the Right lien. Member to be watchful of
the proposed plan, else he would find teat he had only removed the
evil from the inferior to the superior officers. The grettte-t care,
therefore, was necessary, in order to give the measure a fair chance.
If that were done, a benefit might be realised ; but whether or not, he
had crave objections to the extreme remedy of disqualification
which had been recommended by the Right Hen. Baronet the late
[Lorne Secretary.
The vote was then agreed to.
The following votes were then agreed to:-
25,5571. to defray some expense in connexion with naval establish-
ments abroad.
811,3071. to defray the wages of artificers and labourers in con-
nexion with naval establishments at home.
The House then resumed, and the report was brought up, and or-
dered to be received on Monday.
DRAINAGE OF LAND BILL.
On the motion that this Bill be read a second time,
Lord LINCOLN objected to some of the provisions of the Bill,
and complained that Its object had been slightly altered by the
Goveriunent from the one Introduced by their predecessors.
The rreat advantage contemplated by the Bill of last year was to
convert the instalments into a loan. Uhe large proprietors would
have nu great difficulty in obtaining these loanntitrom insurance cone
patties. The small proprietors could not do so, for where the sums
amounted only to 4,000!. or 5,0001., there would be a difficulty ; but
when the sums amounted to 30,0:10/. there would, he conceived, be
no such difficulty. He would not be invidious and real the names
of the persons on the paper before him, but he observed that there
were applieations for sums of 32,i-001., of 47,000!., and, in one in-
stance, of 70,000/. ; and although the grant was 2,000,000!., there were
applications for 700,0001. beyond that sum; so that it was evident
that the whole of the money, if this system were to be pursued; would
be absorbed by the large landowners. Then, again, he objected to the
term which was adopted of throe years, tor in England there were
seven-course systems, and in Scotland four-course systems, so that the
money never could be repaid within the three years, and he would
therefore advise that they should at once be dropped, and take a
five year system, for that would be much better both for the drainage
and for the cultivation of the soil. Again, if the money was thus to
be expended, he was afraid that it would never prove of any great
value in promoting the general improvement. He did hope therefore
that the Government would give this Bill a little more
attention before it was definitely passed through the House.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be com-
mitted on Wednesday next.
CONSOLIDATED FUND BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed.
Mr. GODSON obtained leave to bring in a Bill to encourage
per-
sons to effect Insurance on Lives, Tile Bill was subsequently brought
in and read a first time.
The LORD ADVOCATE obtain. d leave to Introduce the following
Bills :—A Bill to amend the law and practice in Scotland as to the
Service of Heirs ; a Bill to amend the law and practice in Scotland
with regard to Crown Charters amid l'recepts trout Chancery; a Bill
to facilitate the Transference of Lands and other Heritages in Scot-
land not held in Burgage Tenure ; a Bill to facilitate the Transfer-
ence of Lands and other Heritages in Scotland hold in Burgage
Tenure ; a Bill to facilitate the Constitution and Transmission of
Heritable Securities for Debt in Scotland, and to render the same
more effectual.
Captain PECIIELL moved for a return of all vessels that have
been purchased, since 1830, in the Royal Navy, including those
condemned under the Acts relative to the Slave Trade, stating the
tonnage she the price paid for each, distinguishing else areee„,
paid for the hull and for the stores ; also tor a return of tha
number of boys of the first and second class for general
service received on beard the several flag-ships at Ports-
mouth and Devonport, durhig the several months of August, Sep-
tember, October, November, and December, 18 te, distinguishing
those who have not been entered under the regulation of the admi-
ralty tnemorandum of the 25ta day of May, 1841, with the number
of boys so entered, who have been supplied with slop clothing.—
Agreed to.
The remaining orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
-diourned at Half-past One o'clock.

house adi,

STEAM-BOAT ACCIDENT.—On Wednesday atter•
noon, a boat, containing six passengers, and navigated by a
waterman, left the Cork steamer Git, lying in the River, off
Rotherhithe, for the purpose of proceeding to the Tunnel-
pier, when the Waterman steamer No. 1, which was going
down the River, struck the bows of the boat, which imme-
diately capsized. The passengers were all immersed in the
stream, and some of them clung to the steam-vessel until
they were taken on board. One of them, a female, named
Mary Ann Sweeney, had a very narrow escape. She went
down directly after the boat was capsized, and when she
again rose to the surface of the water she was rescued by a
Thamas police- constable, who put off to the assistance of the
parties directly the collision took place. She was conveyed
,to the station-house, where she was provided with clothing.
r The other passengers experienced no damage beyond their
1
immees'o,n in the River, and received the most humane attec-
tions from the people on board the steamer. The occurrence
appeared to have been quite accidental,

SAVINGS' BANKS.
TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN.

Sin,—From an observation recently made by Mr. Baron
Alderson, relative to deposits in savings' banks (and which
first appeared in a public print through the Swings' Bank
Cercu'ar), a good deal of misunderstanding prevails. The
Baron has, by many, been understood to say that if a
savings' bank depositor neglected to withdraw any part of
his deposit for more than six years, he would be debarred by
the Statute of Limitations from recovering what might be
then invested. Since what the Baron let drop upon the sub-
ject it has been contended that, as interest is added year!y
to a depositor's account in the bank ledger, that is a regular
renewal of the whole account. On the other hand, it is
argued that, adding interest annually is not a payment, and,
therefore, no renewal of the account.
Now, Sir, as every body knows thete is the glorious uneer•
taint• of the law, the most prudent and safe plan will b..- for a
depositor (either in person, or by the requisite written dele-
gation,) to withdraw something within six years, if even a
shilling, and thereby set all doubting on this head at rest.—
Your obedient servant,
March 3, 1847.

CERTAINTY.

FRENCH PLAYS.
ST. JAMES'S THEATRE.

M. Alcide Tousez made his first appearance before an English
audience last evening, and M. Alcide Toissez will become, no doubt,
a great favourite with the English public. He is by far the most
humourous French actor we have ever seen. There is a
breadth and an unctiousness about him that is quite Listo-
nian. The piece chosen for his debut was Le Roi des Frontins
in which he sustains the part of Thomas. Frontin, be it remembered,
is the generic name of the intriguing valet of the French vaudeville,
and the Frontin of tke piece (M. llumery) tired of serving a
young, dashing, intriguing, but poor French nobleman, seeks
for a successor, and ends one in Thomas, an itinerant
vendor of poultry a country gawky. He drills him
into the hat exercise and waiting exercise, &c., of a valet
(this drill scene is exceedingly rich), and giving him a written cha-
racter, leaves him as his successor, His master is disgusted with his
gaucherie, but relying on the written testimonial of his abilities, em-
ploys him in all sorts of intrigues. His stupidity favours him,
and as luck will have it, Thomas, more to his own
surprise than to that of any body else, succeeds d mervei lle
in everything he undertakes ; his stupidity is put down to the ac-
count of calculation and intrigue, and he, the stupid country dolt, is
at length acknowledged to be Le Rol des Frontins, the prince of
clever intriguers, merely by acting on the theory of 1 aissez faire.
The acting of Tousez was rich in the extreme. Nature has
bountifUlly bestowed on him a face and figure such as have
not been seen since the days of Liston. M. Alcide Tousez has im-
proved these natural advantages to the highest pitch of perfec-
tion. The house was in a roar from the moment of his appearance
to the falling of the curtails ; and to all hypochondriacs we should
recommend as an infallible cure an evening with M. Alcide Tousez
at the St. James's Theatre.

FOOD DISTURBANCES IN THE

NORTH.

(From the Edinburgh Adrertiaer.)
FIRING BY THE MILITARY AT WICK.
Contrary to all expectation the turbulent spirit manifested
in some districts in the north, regarding the shipment of
food front the various ports, has again manifested itself,
and been attended with disastrous results in the town of
Wick.
It appears that, in the course of last week, a vessel had
arrived at Wick to ship grain, but, by the interference of the
populace, this was prevented. Shetiff Thomson and the
authorities, however, deemed it necessary that protection
should be afforded to the exporters of the grain, and ap.
prehending that outrages might be committed, sent for
the aid of the military at Fort George. Accord.
ingly a detachment, consisting of one hundred and four
men of the 76th Regiment, under the command of Captain
Evans Gordon, was dispatched by the Pharos steamer,
and arrived at Wick on Tuesday. After being landed
they were quartered in the Temperance Hall. The authori-
ties now made preparations to protect the loading of the ves-
sel, and, on Wednesday, a number of constables were sworn
in, but the shipment of grain proceeded so slowly that they
were dismissed with an injunction to assemble if necessary.
The following are from the local papers:—
(From the John 0' Groat Journal of Friday.)
Before dusk on Wednesday evening a party of the military
was marched down the quay to watch the vessel during the
night, and here commenced the most alarming part of the
whole proceedings. How a mob was created, there are
various statements; one thing is certain, previous to the
arrival of tee military, the streets presented the usual
features of ordinary days. About seven o'clock the
whole remaining body of the soldiery were quickly
marched to join their comrades, on a shot being fired as a
signal from their party on the quay. At this time there was
a great excitement. An immense gathering of the populace;
men, women, and children had asssembled, and, in other
parts of the town, deep anxiety was depicted in every coun-
tenance, and great excitement prevailed. The Sheriff and
Provost were present amongst the mob, who surrounded the
military on all hands. The Riot Act was read by the Sheriff,
hut this had not any effect in inducing the people to diverse
in peace. At this time the feelings of the inhabitants were
roused up to the highest possible pitch, for a direct collision
was anticipated every hour. The soldiers were divided into
several parties, and were ordered to disperse the mob at the
point of the bayonet. In this attempt several were wounded
but only slightly. The soldiers continued for some time
parading in different directions, which had the effect of scat-
tering the crowd. The prisoners were taken and lodged in

ja.“
But the worst remains to he told. As a party were march.
ing from Pulteney-town, back to their quarters, when imme
diately under the brae where the Academy is erected, a
volley of stones was thrown by individuals on the top of the
brae and the Sheriff and Provost were both struck. The
soldiers were immediately ordered by the Sheriff to fire, and
we deeply regret to say, that two individuals, a man and
a girl were wounded. The man, William Hougston, fore-
man cooper to Mr. David Davidson, did not form part of
the mob, nor was he with them at the time. According to
his own statement, which seems highly probable, he was
proceeding quietly home. A ball went through his right
hand, which was so shockingly mutilated, that the fin-
gers had to be cut off, and it is even doubtful if a farther
amputation will not have to be made. The other a girl,
named Macgregor, was wounded in the left arm, the ball
passing through the fleshy part, but we believe that the in-
jury done was not dangerous. About this time it is impos-
sible to depict the state of excitement which was visible in
every direction. Men, women, and children fled, on hearing
the report of the musketry and on learning that damage had
been done. Parents were anxiously running in search of
their children, while the crowd were giving expression to the
most vociferous shouts and yells. Soon after, with the ex-
ception of the guard at the vessel, all the military were or-
dered to their quarters, but throughout greater part of the
night, groups of the inhabitants were assembled at every
corner, where the unpleasant events of the evening were can-
vassed. Nothing occurred, however, to produce a breach of
the peace.

FURTHER PARTICULARS.
would seem that, previous to the soldiers being ordered
to disperse the mob, they suffered a continuous and most
aggravating series of assaults from the crowd, and not a few
of them were wounded. Some of the women seized staves, with
which they struck the solders ; one, in particular, struck an
officer thrice, when she received a pretty severe sword cut.
Stones were also thrown from various directions. A great
many were wounded by the bayonets of the soldiers, but no
serious injury was done to any by this means.
TntrusDAY, Foun o'CLocK, P.m.—A public meeting of the
electors has just bee❑ held, at which resolutions on the sub-

jest of the military being brought here, have been unani-
mously passed. The Town Hall was crowded to suffocation,
and was presided over by the Provost. At the close of the
meeting, the whole assemblage have gone down the quay,
and removed the obstructions. From present indications we
think, as we sincerely trust, we have seen the end of this
most unpleasant matter. The Provost made some explana-
tions to the meeting, which were loudly applauded, anti
gave universal satisfaction. Few speeches were Made at the
meeting. but such of the gentlemen as spoke. expressed their
resolution to support the authorities, and an earnest desire
for the immediate removal of the military.
CASTLETOWN.—On Monday evening several hundred per-
sons assembled at Castlehill harbour, in order to put to sea
a vessel ( the " Fisher "of Leith) hich had come there to

load grain. They proceeded to hoist the booms out o
the harbour entrance, and to use threats to compel the cap.
tain to leave the port. Mr. Traill, M.P., accompanied by
Sheriff Gregg, the latter of whom happening to be there by
chance, quickly proceeded to the scene of action, but their
presence had not much effect on the turbulent mob. Many
were armed with sticks and bludgeons, and having pro-
ceeded on board the vessel, the mate, in attempting to de.
fend himself witb a knife, was felled to the deck. This la,t
onset had the effect of dispersing the crowd, as they sup.
posed the man had been killed, and each took to his heels.
Mr. Traill then, at a late hour, (about 12 P.M. or I A.m.),
had his household forces mustered, got the booms replaced.
the vessel secured, and had the mate carried on shore • he is,
however, severely injured. The crew having been withdrawn
no further attempt was made to put the smack to sea.
That such outbreaks should take place in a rural district like
Castletown and Dunnet, is remarkable, and cannot be justi-
fied by any good reason. Mr. Traill is known to have re-
tained in the district more meal and grain than have been
stored there in any previous season, more indeed than can be
consumed before next harvest. The people, too, are welt em-
ployed, and want is not known among them.
THURSO. •••••A correspondent of the above journal, writ-
ing from Thurso, on Tuesday last says— "We have
had lamentable disturbances here. The populace
have blocked up the road to the river with two
small sloops; one of them was taken up to-night. They
have also planted a ten-pounder on the braehead. About
one hundred special constables have been sworn in, and
everything assumes a most threatening aspect. Wehave
too much cause to fear serious Consequences, unless, by some
means or other, peace be restored." We have learned, in
addition to the above, that on Wednesday evening another
gun was placed on the brae, and that the feelings of the
people continue wound up to the greatestpitch. Assemblages
at night are frequent, and threatenings of violence are per-
severed in. The peaceable inhabitants are kept in a state of
the utmost terror from these manifestations.