The Sun.
London, England, 1847-05-05 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, !WEDNESDAY EVENING, MAY 5, 1847.

narrow view of this subject, if their Lordships were to
consider that by passing this Bill they were giving as-
sistance to the Irish proprietors alone. It was not their
interest only that they were considering, but the inte-
rest of the whole country; for the whole population
would benefit by the application of the money proposed
to be advanced, and the repayment of which was secured
by the provisions of this Bill. It was in the largest
sense for the interest of England itself that their Lord-
ships were legislating, and it was with this view that he
now proposed to their Lordships the measure which had
been prepared to remedy the evil that so universally pre-
vailed in Ireland. The Noble Marquis proceeded to state
the nature of the provisions of the Bill, the chief purpose of
which was to carry into more complete effect the Bill of
last session, which authorised the advance of the sum of
1,000,0001. By that Act the advances were made to
certain descriptions of estates, whereas this Bill ex-
tended the benefit of the measure to all kinds of landed
estates, care being taken to seeure the principal and in-
terest, the 1,000,0001. being increased to 1,500,000/. It
was proposed that for loans so advanced an interest of
61 per cent. should be charged on the property; and it
was hoped that not only the interest, but the principal
would, within a few years, be repaid. As this measure
was intended to be universal, and to apply generally
throughout the country, it became desirable that it should
be made applicable to the circumstances of a vast variety
of individuals; the provisions of the Bill had been there-
fore so framed that they fitted themselves to the case of
almost every description of property in Ireland, and it
would be in the power of every proprietor to avail him-
self of them. The greatest anxiety was felt in Ireland
for the passing of this Bill; as a proof of it, abundant
applications had been already made for assistance under
its provisions. In many parts of Ireland, upon the speed
in which that assistance was afforded would depend the
utility of the measure. The Noble Marquis read a letter
from a clergyman, who stated that he was almost worked
off his legs in the discharge of his official duties as
chairman of a board of guardians, and that his
only hope of effectual aid to the inhabitants
of his parish was in the landlords obtaining as-
sistance under this Bill. At present not 51. a week
was paid in wages amongst a population of 4,000. The
object of the Government being that these loans should
be spread over as wide a surface as possible, it not being
expedient to;confine the advances to any one spot, a clause
was introduced which provided that no person should
be allowed to borrow more than 20,000 L The Noble
Marquis concluded by moving that the order of the day
be now read.

The Duke of WELLINGTON—My Lords, during
this session of Parliament I have contributed my sup-
port to various measures which have been proposed by
her Majesty's Government with a view to apply a re-
medy to the misfortune which has occurred within the
last year in Ireland ; but I must say, that of all the
measures which have been proposed by her Majesty's
Government that one which the Noble Marquis has
just adverted to, and the provisions of which he has
now stated to your Lordships, is the one which I be-
lieve, in conjunction with the Bill the second reading
of which was proposed by my Noble and Learned
Friend (the Lord Chancellor) a few nights ago,
will secure the object her Majesty's Government are
seeking to attain—a Bill which appears to me more
calculated than any other measure permanently
to lead to the improvement of Ireland, and to relieving
it from the effects of that great misfortune by which it
has recently been visited.—(Hear, hear.) My Lords, I
am not at all desirous of throwing any impediment in
the way of this Bill, and I am perfectly certain that
there are many of your Lordships much more capable
than I am of stating the benefits which this measure is
calculated to produce. But lam anxious to propose a
clause in the Committee on the Bill, which I think
would contribute to its good working, and remove a
practice in the social system of Ireland which, in my
opinion, has tended greatly to aggravate the misfortunes
of that country, if it has not been the principal occasion
of them. The practice I refer to is that of making land
the circulating capital of the country, and pledging the
land for the purpose of paying the wages of the labourer.
I say, my Lords, that this is one of the causes and one of
the greatest aggra% ations of the existing evils of Ireland,
and the consequence is, that the Government has been
obliged to come forward to give relief by employing
large numbers of the labourers of the country upon
public works. Such a practice as this is most injurious,
for those men who require the services of the labourers
let them land, and, instead of paying them wages as la-
bourers, they oblige the individuals who take the land
to work out the rent. The consequence is that the la-
bourer, who is wholly dependent for his subsistence upon
the produce of his land, finds that his labour is mort-
gaged for the rent, and at the same time, being without
assistance, when his strength fails him he has no re-
source, and is compelled to resort to the Government
works. And what becomes of his employer, the farmer
or the small gentleman who employs him, under this
system of making land the circulating medium of the
country and the wages of labour ? When difficulties
occur, and his capital fails, and his labourers are in-
capable of work, he has no resource , he is not in the
habit of laying, by capital—he has none—and he can
employ no labour. Thus distress, when it comes, affects
everybody, and the Government is compelled to employ
the labourers of the country, and to give them food.
Under these circumstances, my Lords, it appears to me
that you cannot apply an effectual remedy to the evils
of Ireland unless you enforce the necessity of paying
the wages of the labourer in the current coin of the
realm, and in the Committee on the Bill I shall propose
a clause requiring that all bargains for the wages of
labour shall be made in the current coin of the realm,
and that the payment of wages shall be enforced in the
same, and that the lab•iurer shall have a claim for the
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The 'Earl FITZWILLIAM agreed with the Noble
Duke, that these measures were very valuable, as far as
they went for the improvement of Ireland. He heard
with satisfaction the views of the Noble Marquis on this
Bill, and he believed that if they were carried out, they
would materially mitigate the evils under which Ireland
was at present labouring.
The Earl of WICKLOW wished to call the attention
of the Government to what he considered an omission,
but ho hoped an accidental omission. He meant the
omission of the landlords, who undertook works under
Mr. Labouchere's letter. They were not taken into con-
sideration at all, and he entreated the Government to
comprise ail the sums in this Bill which were expended
under Mr. Labouchere's letter. The Bill had his full
concurrence, and he considered it a most efficient mea-
sure, but he thought the omission to which he adverted
should be supplied.
Lord NIONTEAGLE was unwilling to say one word
on the principle of the Bill. He considered it one of
great public importance, and one of great public duty.
The money was advanced under the strongest security—
that of land itself, and he bee ged to call their attention to
the smallness of the advances compared with that security.
He thought that every effort should he made to render
the present income an efficient one, and therefore a pro-
vision should be introduced against the truck system,
but that the parties employed under it, should receive
their wages in money. Before sitting down, he had an
amendment to suggest in one of the clauses. In the
fourth clause of the original Bill, he found that provision
was made for the erection of mills in particular districts,
which were in the want of them. There was also store-
striction as to the amount of the capital to be invested in
those mills, or their size. In that shape he was not sur-
prised that the Bill was objected to, but still he con-
sidered that some provision of the kind should be
retained. The amount, however, ought to be restricted
in amount, and he would move a clause in Committee to
that effect. He would also recommend, that in addition
to these mills, small stores should be erected in particular
localities, and the provision in the original Bill re-
specting the erection of farm buildings, should also be
restored.

The Duke of RICH MOND concurred with his Noble
Friend as to the necessity of introducing such provisions
in the Bill as would provide for mills, and the erection of
suitable farm buildings.
Lord BEAUMONT considered a great improvement
would have to be made in the system of tillage, before
the landlords of Ireland could take advantage of the
provisions of the Bill. The great evil in Ireland was
the small farms into which the soil was divided, and the
tenacious hold which the peasantry had upon the land.
There ought to be something done to alter this state of
things and to enlarge the farms. As it regarded the
amendment of his Noble Friend (Lord Monteagle), he
was astonished that it had not been retained in the Bill,
MS he considered it essential to the due efficiency of the
Bill.
Their Lordships then went into Committee.
Lord MONTEAGLE proposed an amendment on the
4th clause, authorising the erection of farm buildings,
and in certain districts of corn mills, provided always
that not more than 1,0001. was applied for the erection of
any one mill.
Lord STANLEY agreed with the Noble Lord as to
the propriety of the amendment which had just been
made.
After a few words from Lord LUCAN,
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE conceded the im-
portance of the amendment of the Noble Lord, giving
power to erect mills, which he thought would prove of
great advantage to the country.
The clause, as altered, was then agreed to.
On the Question that it stand part of the Bill,
Lord MONTEAGLE said he felt strongly the im-
portance of the clause, and wished to take the opinion of
their Lordships upon it. He was certain the Bill would
not work without such an addition. The Noble Lord on
hearing that the Marquis of Lansdowne would give the
subject his attention, said he would not press his amend-
ment then.
After a few words from the Duke of Richmond, and
the Earl of Lucan, Marquis of Clanricardo, Lord Redes-
dale, and several other Noble Lords, the clause was
agreed to.
Clauses 1 to 5 were also agreed to, without any
amendments.
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The House resumed,
journed. and immediately thereafter ad-

HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 4.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
CONSERVATION OF THE THAMES.
Mr. MASTERMAN brought in a Bill to provide for
the conservation of the River Thames, and far the rep-
loop, management, and improyement thereQf,

9 POOR-LAW RIITURNS.
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with the poor-laws.
The IloN. MEMBER also gave notice that, upon the
order of the day being read for the second reading of the
newPoortimlawe
that day six months.
Bill,he should move that the Bill be read
a second
LORDS OF SESSION (SCOTLAND).
Mr. HUME moved for a return of the salaries re-
ceived by each of the Lords of Session in Scotland since
the year 1837, in each year; stating also all emoluments
and fees each have received in each year in addition to
their salary, exclusive of the moneys received by them
for arbitrations undertaken by them. Also for a return
from each of the Lords of Session of Scotland. of the
number of arbitrations undertaken by them, or of pri-
vate suits or matters referred to them for their decision
or award, in each year since 1837, with the names of
the parties and of the places where the same were re-
spectively heard, the time occupied about the arbitra-
tion, together with the amount of fees or money re-
ceived or charged for or on account or such arbitration,
decree, or award; and also with the amount of all sums
of money charged, demanded, or received, for travelling
or other expenses in or about such matters, by each of
the Lords of Session, in each year since 1837.—Motiou
agreed to.
REVENUE OF THE ISLAND OF MALTA.
Dr. BOW RING moved for an account of the gross
receipts, under their several heads, of the revenue of
the island of Malta, for the year 1846 ; and a similar
return of the manner in which the said revenue has been
expended.—Agreed to.
POOR REMOVAL ACT.
Mr. BANKES postponed, for a few days, bringing in
the Bill of which he had given notice, to repeal the Poor
Removal Act of 8 and 9 Victoria.
ADMINISTRATION OF THE POOR-LAW.
Mr. FERRAND gave notice that he would, upon a
future stage of the New Poor-law Bill, ask the Law
Officers of the Crown, by what authority power was
delegated to any body of men to make rules and regula-
tions equally as binding as Acts of Parliament, and if no
such statute existed, then he wished to know, whether
those persons who had been committed to prison for dis-
obedience of those regulations had not been illegally
imprisoned.

Mr. HUME considered that great benefit would re-
sult from the proposed inquiry.
The motion was then put and agreed to.
SMITHFIELD MARKET.
Mr. ORMSBY GORE moved that the following Hon.
Members be nominated for the Select Committee on
Smithfield Market :—Mr. Ormsby Gore, Viscount Mor-
peth, Viscount Mahon, Mr. W. B. Baring, Mr. Sidney
Herbert, Lord Seymour, Mr. Thomas Baring, Mr. Bur-
roughes, Mr. Bramston. Mr. Alderman Copeland, Mr.
Beckett Denison, Mr. Masterman, Mr. William Miles,
Mr. Stafford O'Brien, and Mr. Eliot Yorke.
On the motion being put,
Colonel WOOD moved the following amendment :
that Lord Robert Grosvenor, Sir Charles Napier, Sir De
Lacy Evans, and Mr. Antrobus, be members of the said
Committee.
Mr. lIAWES did not consider that the eastern por-
tion of the metropolis was represented on the Com-
mittee.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the original motion 25
Against it
Majority — 19
There not being 40 Members present, the House stood
adjourned till to-morrow at twelve o'clock.