The Sun.
London, England, 1812-04-11 00:00:00

at the latter end of Sir Robert Walpole, there .xere
more of such officers than at Present. On the other
no 'could say that the influence of the
Crown, out of the two Houses of Parliament, and
thronghout the country at large, had not increased,,
and to an alarming extent. But that he conceived
to have.-no application !o the. question. The mea-
sure of trequently dissOlving Parlia.nents, of which
two striking instances had lately occurred, was in
his mind, a proof of what ire- advanced. Itistend-of
reducing the influence of the Crown, the proposed
measure would go to increase it ; and upont this
plain principle, that places iri,posgession, and hos
more frequently following them, if grants were.
made-insreversion, the Crown would evidently have
the more places to distribute. But what, he would
.ask, was the object of the. grant of a few offices in
reversion, to a people under the pressure of .an ex
penditure.of 80 millions? It only tended to deceive
and mislead the people, and to turn their ittention

. _
aside. from ohjeas of great and momentous impor-
tance. He thought the subjca. was too often and
unnecessarily agitated, and un":!er that impreSsiOn he
-would support the amendment. .
The Earl of DARNLEY, in sunport of the ameud-
rnent, 'reminded the .Noble Lords, thlt the mea,are
did not exclusively apply io Members -of both'
Houses of Parliament. The- praaice of . granting
places in reversion was, he deemed, a monstrous
abuse, and he therefn-e felt it his daty to vote
for an extension_ of the time for plohibiting the

pratlice.
Earl GREY was of opinion also that the subjed
was agitated much too often, boa-on many points he\
differed widely from his Noble Friend (Lord L.)
prairtfui as it - was so. to differ from him. He con-
ceived the measure in questioo, on the ground and
principle of an economical reform, to be of great im-
portance to the country, as making a part of such a
'proposed system, and evincing to the country the
principle hv which the Legislature was aetuared.-.-
Nri:lier did In- ifm.k the amount of the offices even-
' tually to be atlclaed by WM be such a stpall consi-
_
deratiori. et. of those ,offices alone produced to
their possessors opvdat'ds of sixty thousand pounds
per annum. This immense increase was owing to
various circumstances, from an increase in the re-
venue, and ap e.xt,insion of the scale of the -expen-
tilillie, and front other causes not foreseen at the
time. By the granting such offices in reversion, as
_ • Iliad been the case, it was out out of the power of,
Parliament to regulate them, and this was one of
the most material paints of viewin which the sub-
, jest could b.:: regarded. With resped to his Noble
Friend's sentiments as to the diminution of the in-
fluence 'of the Crown, he was too accurate an ob-
server not to be aware that; upon the whole, the in-
fluence of the Crown had greatly and enormously
increased, and that it was their duty to, lessen that
influence and expenditure, where practicable, the
better to enable and to reconcile the country to bear.
prat expenditure in those great. masses, where it
was impossible to reduce it. Could the. army or
navy be reduced in the present situation and circum-
stances of the Country, as relative to'France, Or to
continental Europe ? Could even the revenue be
• - -diminished in the present circumstances of the coun-
try ? In the view of prospetitive -economical
form, he would rest his support of the Bill, as bold-
ing out promise, and he hoped a pledge to the-
people of 'England, that they would endeavour to al-
leviate their burdens as far as it was praelicable.—
He could by n.O means subscribe to his Noblp
Friend's position, that the measure would go to in-
c+ ease instead of diminishing the influence -of the
Crown, as-did the-option remain, places could in of-
- tett be granted boll) in possession and teversioo.—
Upon the whole, the measure of she amendment,
not only' in point of principle, bast as far as it went, in
point of eronornical reform, had his entire and cor-

dial support.
Tree Earl of LAUDERDALE spoke in explanation.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL did not deem it necessary
to dwell upon the priecipie of a measure upon which
coos, of their I.,4dshipa-seemed to entertain one sena-
timent. A few words, in consequence of the Amend-
men proposed by the Nobble Earl, he thought it neces-
sary, to offer. In the first place, the Amendment_ was
not the case of one in furtherance of the objet of the'
Bill, by any improvemeirt of its provisions ; it was,
on the contrary, in direa counteraaton of the
which the Commons had sent up to that House.
The real question before them- was, whether, with
reference to certain proposed or pending measures,
it were advi'sable'to continue a 'suspension of the
power in question for a limited time, and with "a re-
ference to the objeas for which those measures
were proposed. It went to a prohibition of reversi-
onary grants, for two years, by that means leaving
the general subjea of which it formed a part open
to the future consideration and regulation of Parlia-
ment. To extend the prohibition, ttlerefore to an
interval of near thirty years, would be to render the
Bill a mockery,,with resped.to the real objea of its
introdudion. the. question was not one of
on, but of suspension. He' felt much relieved by
what fell from a Noble Earl, w ith.resped to the
extent of the benefits to be derived (tont the mea-
sure in point of adual saving—they were so trivial
and insign,iticant as not, comparatively,- to be wor-
thy of serious consideration. On the subject of in-
fluence touched upon by the Noble Earls, it was
one on which he had occasion to make much in-
quiry, and from the' fatis which had come to his
knowledge, he could confidently aver, that the num-
ber of offices held by Members of both Houses of
P.lrliarnent did not amount to one halt of what it
was thirty years ago. It was not with regard to
offices,alonb, but a species of influence existed with
• respell to Parliament, which now he maintained-did
not exist at all. But it was said, the influence of
the Crown had greatly increased throughout the
country, from the gneat and unavoidable increase of
the estab,ishments, particularly of the military and
naval. 01 the extent of this it was impossible, with-
out much and deliberate calculation: to form any
thing like a true opinion. But though the-army
and avy had increased in a proportion of four 'or
live fOld, compared to former times of war
double that ompared to the former peace establish-
ments-.—yet he could say with truth, that notwith-
standing upon the whole', the extent of influence
accruing to the Crown from- these establishments,
was infinitely less now than at those former periods.
Lei the principle upon which those things latterly
proceed be considered. In former times officers were
aduallyrdistriissed from their situations on account of
t I,e r political condu6. Such were the cases of the
great Lord Chatham, and of the Duke of Argyll,

who .were dismissed for oßpoSing the Administration
of Sir Robert Walpole. He was ready to declare
that, if any Noble Lord examined the subje6t with
csndour, he would find that 114 influence of the
Crown, in these respects, now, was considerably less
than at former periods";-, Nu °Web principle prevailed
of late years ins induced the dismissal of any officer
on Account of his politacal condutt.Though personal
friendship and political attachment had naturally,
some weight in point of Seletlion, yet 1-t- would be
fotind there were as many persons in the service,
connected with those who opposed the Execrative
Government, as-of those who supported
They had.arriVed at that state of 'the world, and the
circumstances of the country were such, that the
obligation was iinperatit eof makiwz choiCe only of
suck persons as were most likely to serve tlieir coun-
try with eireal. There never existed a period when
the feelings of partiality in selea.on were less predo-
minant. It dittnot necessarily follow that the in-
cr6ase-of Influence was in proportion to the increase
of the-establishment. This, when it arrived to a
certain extent, from the very nature of things, less-
ened, instead of increasing the means of influence.
-With respe6-1 to the measure under consideration, it
did not bear on the question `of influence In the way.
some Noble Lords seenied to conceive. With a view
to influence, it would evidently be an object of the
Crown to have its offices not held for any length of
time, or granted in reversion to ;ndividuals, but held
by theM solely during its, pleasure. 'The grant of
offices in reversion or remainder, placed the grantees
in a certain degree Of independence on th. Crown,
and so far diminished its influence. The real ques-
lion on that part Of the subjea was„ whether the
system of those gr.ints were advantageous to the-state.
in an enlarged view of the subje&, or. otherwise, by
affording a means of rewarding great,and transcend-
ant merit, and stimulating the exertions of individu-
als in the service of the SOte. Vpon_itie whole, he
was induced to support the Bill as sent up by the C,,m-
mons, as it wduld leave the question toll; at issue
to the future consideration and regulation of the Le-
gislature.

- The Earl of MORTON conceived the honour of the
House was implicated in'the present question, and
ar4ued strongly against the 'amendment; as propos
ing an interval to all probability beyond the extant
of the present reign. An important and lott esta-
blished prerogative'of the Crown was in question ;
and in a constitutional point of view, the Royal
prerogatives were of as much importance as. the pi i-
vileleS of either Hou'se of Parliernent. Under the
present circumsiances, it was perhaps incumbent up-
on the House to regard these prerogatives with a
more than ordinary degree of attention. They shritaid
recollect and consider the peculiar circumstances
under which the Crown 'was pldced. The Royal
pserogative4 could not be-touched without the assent,
solemnly express..-d, of the Sovereign on the throne.
That assent could not be now .so colleded. The
Royal prerogatives were now placed in theihands °fa
tfustee, in trust for the Sovereign, and he trusted
these prerogatives would be exercised, as they had
been for firry years, iA.-isely, moderately, and benefi-
cially ftlr the realm. The measure in question, if
agreed to as proposed, and carried up to the Illustri-
ous person who exeicised 'the regal powers, would
go-to place that Illustrious Personage in a specieg
of diletnma.—The* Noble Earl Was proceeding,
when

Earl GREY and Lord HOLLAND rose together to
speak to a question of order; and the butt' Peer
proceeded : and asserted, that as 'far as he under-
vont' the- Noble Earl, -he went neatly as fir as to
allege, there was at present no Consinunon in the
countrv., The introduaiun of the topic adverted to
by the Noble Earl, he considered as disorderly. He
submitted to the House, whether the use of such ar-
guments could consistently be suffered.
The EArl of MonToN,. in explanation, expressed
his belief, that what he said was perfectly in order.
He meant not to deny that the Illustrious Person al-
l'uded to. possessed the power of giving or withhold-
ing the Royal- Assent ; but with respect to the clear
and undoubted prerogatives of the Crown, he deem-
ed it the duty .of that Illustiions Person to preserve
• them in such a state as to be able to restore them to
the King and Sovereign in as perfea and undimi-
nished a state as he had received them.

Lord HoLLAsrs spoke in explanation, 34 to the
point of order: he, then proceeded shortly to com-
ment on the measure in question. Cif this he did
not seem to approve. He thought it would be bet-
ter to come to a decision, either to set the practice
wholly aside, or not, to agitate it, in the way now
brouOit CorWaid, which he tegarded as a species of
ad caplandara v ulgus! • •
.1 he question was put, -and the Amendment of
GRost'rEbtoa v‘s.tiegatived Without a division';
and the Bill being agreed to by the Commitiee, the
„House resumed, and rectived the Report". After
which their Lordships Adjourned till Monday.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

FIUDAY, APRIL 10.

On the motion of Mr. G. MILLs, a Committee
was-appointed- to search the Lords' Journds with
resped to ihtir LordShips' proceedingS. on the Irish
Infirmary and Court-house .
Mr. InviNG, florn the laspector'-General of Ex-
ports and Imports, • prosented an Account of the
Wheat, Barley, and Oats, itnuorted in the last
year.
Ordered to lie on the' table.

Mr. FOSTER, from the Trustees of the Liverpool
Dock Company, presented an Account of .their Re-
ceipts and Disbursements for thela3t year.

Ordered to lie on ibe table.

'Mr. BEST, from the Bank of England, presented
an Account of the number of Persons prosecuted ft:r
Forging and 'Uttering Forged Bank Notes, for- 14
years, prior to ►he restriction on cash payments
in 1797. ,
Ordered to lie on the table.

Mr. JoiiNSON, from the Office of Chief Secretary
For- Ireland, presented an Account, of the total
amount of. the Funded Debt of that country:

Ordered to lie on the (able.

The Legal Quays Bill went through a Committee
(Sir 'W. Curtis in the Chair), the report of which
was ordered to be received on Monday.
On tie motion of Mr. WHARTON, it was order-
ed that the House•at its rising should adjourn to
Monday.
The West Auetion Duty Bill went through
a Committee, the report of which was ordered tv
be received on Monday.

Inconsequence of some informAty, the Order
made recently for the produttion of the correspond.
ence between the President of the Board of Controul
end the Chairman and Deputy Chairman of the
East India Company., relative to their Charter, was
(on the motion of General Gaq:oigrie) di.charged;
and a new Order made to the following etreti

" That there be laid before the House Copies of ail Cor-
respondence that has taken place between the President and
cOirmiis-sioneits—for the Affairs of India, and the Chaiiihan
and Deputy Chairman of the Court of Diredors of the East
India Company ; together with the Nlinutefi of the Court of
Di redors relative to, the reneval of their exclusive privileges;
as laid before the Proprietots of India Stock on the 26th
141 a rch last."

Mr. CREEVEY,gave notice, that on Yhursd.ty next
he woold•subEnit to the House curtain Resolutions
respettittg the two. Tellorships of the Exchequer,
held by the Marquis of Buckiughatn and Earl
Cann . .

A- Message from the Lords announced their Lord-
ships assent to the Itish Militia A& Amendment
Bill, the Irish Willa Families Bill, &c.
The Honourable Mr. BENNBTT gave notice,
that on Wednesday he would submit to the House
a motion on the subject of corporal punishments in
.the army..