The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-30 00:00:00

1/I`ged• No doubt II:ey effected a saving in the end by
ereir-e. by hindering the- men from becoming
rs- -faed yers well, but cs the fret
berCme evident to the people, the whole charm was
osen, and numbers thronged to the spot, and thus
threw upon
the proprietors a burden more than the y
d bear. While he was upon his legs, he would take
opportunity
for
of expressing his deep sympathy
Majesty's
the embarrassing position in which her
'St jesty's advisers were at present placed. The
circumstancestroublesome,
under which they acted were difficult and
thoublesome, but he was glad to see, that not only in
to relieve country but even in others, there was a disposition
srelieve the suffering people of Ireland as much as
i)° aible• He had received large quantities of corn-meal
from
1e d Philadelphia and Canada, for the use of the Irish.
•Le took that opportunity of stating these facts, and ac-
s them in public. He entirely concurred in
o:teet otbostehr:ations of the Noble Marquis, who opened the
:nicarteei,anth(Latthiet. was a very perilous experiment to hold
people of any country, more especially those
terra] l prospect of a certain remedy, by law,
destitution. He would no longer detain their
lea d hiPs by any further observations ; and, in conclu
rln
_ ,he would uree upon the Legislature the gravest
sent ideration before passing such a measure as the pre-
one into a permanent law.
at:4'rd STANLEY perfectly concurred in the argu-
prpl had just fallen from the Most Reverend
he ate, who had just sat down, to a certain, extent, but
ieved most
that this measure was fraught with the m
4X" dangers. He was not surprised that the remarks
ato.'"e Noble Marouis, who brought forward this mea-
he
(ei, had been smile what misunderstood. It was not. to
eh "led that this was an emergency of a most trying
a.aracter, an mergency which, though it was only
hem
trlTearane,
, of a temporary nature—temporar,
wired, it wool I be—but yet it was evidently fraught
it, th "sequences which must last, to say the least of
that r"gh a series of years ; and he on eg.
their feelings of commisseration had been excited,
ig)i!haPS, in too great a degree. There had beena
g,eeelaitgbsreaking up of old feelings, old associations, old
iteetices, and old principles ; and it was, therefore,
f !.° all necessary that they should not suffer their
ahould „me
to be too- much excited,a but that they
and to it with sober judgment,
the a cool discretion. He was perfectly aware, that at
le
.present moment the Government had facilities for
thgislating which had never been enjoyed before; but, as
most Reverend Prelate had justly stated, they must
bit care that they took no step which they might be
ceed to retrace. It appeared to him that the Noble
had on the cross benches (the Earl of St. Germans)
"ad taken a most inadequate view of the question, and
great as he conceived the difficulty to be, and great as
Would be the mischief from granting an unlimited relief
from thepublica
that
fundsit wduring teh i
only
t e m pt
eon
ir aproyr da
ri syt,r e
hs se, and
he tr ut. e
tehosught that the pecuniary portion was the
least that
net the subject, the course of which was so beset by
neat perils. If that had been the only principle involved,
e question would have had no greater opponent than
',,tttself. The Noble Earl had talked of lid. in the
Crad, but he knew in one instance where
ahiu7no,svas a rate made for twelve months, of seven
of bs in the pound, and in another of a rate
the"`,T?ty shillings in the pound. It its present shape,
pivi..-°?„llcalculated rather to impede the power of
14 al? all-door relief than to facilitate it. When his
insufficient
had stated that the workhouses were quite
relief, ent.for the accommodation of those who required
hi
__no did not recollect that there was already an Act
au.7l"estence which provided a power for increasing thek
heuloesr and enlarging the accommodation in the wor-
Ilandre. Whenhe talked of there being a space of eight
be tried square miles on which this experiment was to
and h° and when he talked of the extent of the unions,.
that himself was ready to acknowledge that au union
eigh was so extensive that some portions of it were forty-
wee tbmiles from the workhouse, but in noticing this he
carri Oatid to observe that if this measure were to be
elation fat, they must provide a sufficient acc.omAnaoe-
gays for the poor, the provisions of thi.s
rt
" the
thapteriod oeportunity of giving a limited relief
reod
of two months. But this practically imp.fi
it
Wer "6 workhouse test was to be applied. And is
of
aesse t° he applied, they must take ade
lanTituodation, and the whole of the property of e-
quate meaialr
Ire-
only (:),ught to be rated for the relief of the poor—notl
and.h_e Property of the landlord, but of the ten9t sho;
landlords e wouolfdlnreevl never be a party to unduly overweighing t e
Property had • and. He was not prepared to deny that
also it its duties . but if it had its duties it had
the, 's rights, and if the rights were not allowed, they
and
could not expect that it should fulfil its duties ;
other'is order to obtain the one they must allow the
to *lt was perfectly evident that if this measure were
velrse effected—and he sincerely trusted that the Go •
desunient would re-consider its opinions—they must en-
it: our to reduce the size and increase the number of
lariluiens- The unions in the country were as much too
p3e as those of the districts were too small. At the
ersisient time the landlords absolutely /aid two-thirds
Po =it
rates, and left the tenant to pay the other. In
paa It had been represented that the landlords of Ireland
truth was unlimited power over their tenants, but the
was that the tenants possessed a far greater power
met' the landlords than the landlords did over the
tthliaeodapneetrst'y
°f the
measure were to be rendered effectual,
taxation must be rendered commensurate with the
the country.—(Cheers.) The Noble Marquis
of theleeived that it was necessary to bring the posyer
tikeh °°r•daw Commissioners to bear on the collection
e rates, but he (Lord Stanley) did not conceive that
uardiansad ever been guilty of imprudence in the
j.lll6giment of their duties. He asked how they could
'EtVe the rates of the country to a body. of farmers,
includedwhose holdings, 20 or 30 of them, might be in a
good English farm—such a body of men, with the powert
Of levying two-thirds or three-fourths of the rie
Upon the landlord ? It was said by the Noble
14arquis,a in his opening statement. that the
number of small holdings must be diminished. One
remark fell from him in regard to another means of
reined that the plough must be substituted for the
u BPade remedy,
t he did not concur with his Noble Friend
near him hi thinking that the effect of that improve-
kent would be to diminish the demand for labour. The
effect of introducing science into agriculture would be to
increase the necessity of increased labour and employ-
lent. But there was a demand directly made upon the
llt had been said that they must increase the size of the
r ir
•ar
°1 8, the number of their servants, and the amount of
eair wages. That looked very well in theory, but how
dit succeed in the hands of the Government when
they attempted their improvements upon the model
• tt°•—(Laughter.) Why, for fourteen years her Ma-
esty's Ministers had used their utmost power, and had
faSled to remove one tenant. In fact, they were all be-
e.onie tenants at will,
not paying one penny
that
rent ;
rid the most ludicrous part of the whole was when
aims, who had resigned their lands, wereappointed
care-takers • they became care-takers in a
Pnec uliar sense of word, and refused to leave the land
auriPt.4Y one farthing of remuneration. Such was the re-
fs, What thennhad the Government been able to clef
heir property? He admitted that the number o
tZ' holdings ought to be diminished. But how wasoh
itur to be done? They must diminish the motives which
alu,ed them to cling to these holdings. But here the
hre),--ents of the Noble Marquis had failed; for while
bedßill, that so and so would be the concomitants of the
Lord' irgot to introduce to the attention of their
t* • - uiPs, those means by which the effects he antici-
aletilded were to be produced. There was once
vial house in that Bill which permitted the pro-
laud"' (If relief for a man in the occupation of
hav That fortunately was struck out, and that would
io e the effect of reducing the number of small hold-
eugsf But yet a man with eight or nine acres of land
eal a Manage to subsist himself unless he had what they
he led a heavy family. Yet there could be no hope that
thr Could employ the labourer, who was necessarily
had
own upon the world. A strange notion, oever,
been begotten in this country, that it was h
thew duty
proprietor to give increased emplomt in the im-
s'rovernent of his estates. Those who said so did
not understand that those estates were divided out
itsto farms of ten or twelve acres each, and that
al he should attempt to lay out his estates anew, to
straighten the divisions, he would be resisted, aye, even
to the death, if one man believed he would lose by that
only half a cow's grass. Such a position of the landlords
evinced the impression and the expectation to be most
Utopian and monstrous. These were the two points
which he wished to impress upon their Lordships. They
must give the owners of property greater means of
Managing and improving that property which was their
Own—they must make it the interest of the occupier to
keep down the poor-rates, by placing him in a similar
Position with the landlord in reference to the payment
of those rates. The Noble Earl (St. Germans) gave
notice of some amendments which he intended
moving in Committee. He (Lord Stanley) concurred
;
those amendments, and would support them;
out he would assure the Government that their Lord-
lash;iPs would not go into Committee on this Bill with any
;'2BPosition but to relieve a most difficult and a most in-
,"rleate situation. He hoped most earnestly that all the
'enefits which the friends of the measure might antici-
at? would result from it, and that it would prove ulti-
mately
a great permanent good in Ireland.
Earl
te DESART expressed his satisfaction at the man•
the in which her Majesty's Government had introduced
Bill, and felt extremely grateful to the people o
41,1,1and,who had come forward to relieve the destitution
'sae people of Ireland.
dikora BROUGHAM did not think they were in a con-
A-°ll at present to legislate safely upon the question.t
ro `emporary measure would be safer than a permanent
measure.
He thought it would be safer to limit r
teehasure to one year. He thought it might be necessay
butl." an enactment at the expiration of that period;
0„" "0 defied their Lordships to repeal the law when
of they had
passed it. It would be found that two-thirdsf
s•otaitheahifurden -would be thrown on the landlords instea.d.o
would ts. lie thought that, great as the responsiwboiluiltyd
he me of doing nothing, all that responsibility
Isikililavluch •
4ctinueiir.leityjest compared with the risk which the public
8111
rhoriewd hthavee to encounter, if they sento
occupier.
whole burden on the
eezi:iiesdhhiistaonly objection, and throughout thedwhole -
se of the debates the arguments he ha i.a d
Practicable.
that this' Bill would be found to be im-
lhelain
s, was then read a second time without a division.
Ts, alarquia
Lordrstatement of LANSDOWNE said, that lie pro-
e at this Bill should be committed on next Tuesday.ent
iti MIDNTEAGLE hoped that when they w
ors •
mittee on the Bill, that there would be some
Bill was
adMinistered.
as to the exact mode in which it was to be
After a few words from the Earl of FITZWILLIAM
text. ordered to be committed on Tuesday

.The LanddihiedPyroperty Bill was read a second time,
and seas
Lor
ordered to be committed on Thursday next.
()clock. s then adjourned, at Half-past Twelve