The Sun.
London, England, 1841-09-28 00:00:00

any remarks upon the statement of the Right Hon.
Gentleman ; indeed, it was not what he had
stated that
called for any observation; it was that art hich he
had omitted.—(Cheers.) It was at all times ay difficult
matte.c to, follow a long financial statement without
preparation, and it was the more difficult; for him to do
so then, as he had been but a short time in town ; but
there i verse one or two points upon which he would offer
a few observations. He believed the Right lion. Gen-
tleman had made no alteration—bad found 'no mistakes
in the estimates made by him (Mr. -.airing) in his finan-
cial Statement in April. It was a source of satisfaction
to him to find such to be the case after a lapse of six
months.,—(Hear, hear. yHe undenstoo the proposd
trans ;ion as it WAS stated in the
newspdapers ; he haed
no. dot tit upon the matter until he heard the statement
of the Right Hon. Gentleman. As he understood the
transaetion, the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed to fund
two end a half millions, while, by ahe arrange.-
of of the terms he proposed :at the same
time to raise two d a half i'.ons in money.
But When the Right lion.an Gentleman stated that he men-
tionedl five millions to inform the public that he should
want two-and-a-half millions he (Mr„ -Bing) must say that be was left in doubt whether he arunderstood the
meanure of the Right Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear.) He
(Mr. Baring) tree:tad that ne word, would fall from him
to e:aeurnber the public service ' • but he did not think
that Right Hon. Gentleman could say that his-measure
neceedecl. It appeared to Lim that the Right Hon.
Gentleman was in this position—that he did not know
whether he had funded two-and-a-half millions or -jet ;
that he Would neither know the amount funded ;.ir the
amount of money ho was likely to receive—ne;aher the
4_lsl'e nor the other. If, therefore, his main (ntaject was
Right, fetitUtwo:•and-a-half milliona of Exchequ:er Bills, the
-night, Zion. Gentleman had not scured Vont object ; if,
°lithe other hand, his Object was to obta.i.o two and a half
minions in money, to obviate the necensity of going oat
°E the ntarket, in that case the Right Than Gentleman had
not got the' money.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman stated, that nc one wo old quarrel with the
ainnunt oE bonus he had adopted. So far from it, if he
(kr- Baring) might liave snggrasted anything to him
.ens to his making an obsnavation of that kind, he
shnind hare said, "Don't ine:ite the operation without
being Perfectly sure of suet:, ledhig." He (Mr. Baring)
atethat the advantage, of any small saving (which
'le 'did not underrate), would not be equal, in the present
State of the finances, to osufficient 'offering terms to se-
curt3 the operation prop osed. But with regard to the
an) cunt of the offer of the Right Honourable Gentle-
11*
-141, he (Mr. Baring) roust say, that it appoered to him
al• satisfactory offer. He said that wi'll satisfaction,
because it appeared. that after all ,:l at the Right
on. Gentleman had. said—that after ten years of Whig
Administration he proposed terms which he believed
Aim less by one-third than he. himself funded Bache-
gni I' Bills in 1830. These w,-! re facts he (Mr. Baring)
Was: glad to learn. After all they had heard th
of our finances—of the enormous ditlicultits °iihe ruin
iche
(14 . Baring) had left the finances of the country, the
moo tent the Eight Hon. Gmtleman v.Anted money he
offer ed to the public a sum one-third less than he himself
had. offered after some 40 or 50 years uninterrupted ad:Jai-
iaist ration of the finances. These fe.cts, he repeated, were
conaiolatory amidst the ague and to
ouloquy that were cast
upon them, that when he (the Chancellor of the
Excl. them came to deal in the money market, he did
not rind they had left it 50 per cent. worse, bat
25 rem cent. better..—(Cates of " Hear, hear.")
With regard to the riper ution of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, there Was one Wait to which he wished to allude.
He 'thought he (Mr. C Culburn) should use his best en-
deavours to avoid a lca,n. The House might recollect
what was the case in t'ae good old times when a loan was
to be executed. Exe opt in extreme cases, he should re-
gard it us extremely wrong to have recourse to a loan.
(Heaaa hear.) He conceived the plan of opening to com-
binati
objections. on the raisir,k of 2,500,000 L, was liable to very
strong He thought it was not right to have
recourse to a connbination of the monied aristocracy. The
Ilight Hon. Gentleman prop std to make up, by
of Exchequer /3ills or sale of Stock, what heans
e was unable
to do by means of his operation. He agreed with him
in the necessity of keeping down the amount of Exche-
quer Bills. ldut the Right Hon. Gentleman would find
that the amount of thnse Bills had been reduced by him-
self and Lord Monneagle in 1835 ; therefore the Right
tion. Gentleman
1111 the market a,,a. *would find a less amount of those Bills
an when he came into offiCe. Though
b e R, ight Ron. Gentlemen opposite had reduced them
bytaree raillions, yet they' were not the only persons
raisin reelnieed them. He should be rather for
thaa--g, the required amount by sale of Stock
ti, n 1).)7 Exchequer Bills. But ho was surprised
.0 t%ight Hon, Gentleman did not make any allusion to
Teprospeers of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Not once
clid he vonchsafe a small glimpse as. to how he should
(Ch*proceed with the finances of the country hereafter.--
eees.) When on a former occasion lie was taunted
with. saying he
d; would let this alone he twice rose and in-
.gnantly repelled the accusation. And yet he now
considered, after his success, that the wisest plan was to
leave things alone, and wait the next Session.—(Cheers.)
If he (Mr. Baring) thought delay was absolutely neces-
sary he should not object to a delay of some weeks—
Wear, hear)—but in his conscience he could not admit
the plea of delay in the present position of affairs ; and
after. the late Government had been attacked and de-
feated upe.,n their financial measures—(Hear, hear)__
he could not understand such a proceeding.—(Cheers.) lie ha',, with his Noble Friend the Member for London,
oPlYosed any such delay under such 'circumstances, and
considered it unadvisable to pursue the course pursued
by the other side. He hoped the Right lion. Gentle-
'man had some expectation that it would not be necesary
t° lovy new taxes, but if he had no such expectation then
he thought it dangerous to delay, and he
considered it
„unfair that those taunts of profligate expenditure should
00 directed against the Whig Government.
Sir It. PEEL intimated that he made no such accu-
sation.
Mr. BARING—But they were the words of the Noble
ford: before whose motion the Whig Government was
Iheaten.—(Cheers.) He knew the Right Hon. Baronet
Ives always ready to disavow the sentiments of one-halt
made
,of his friends.—were
(Cheers.) Those accusations
;and charges were founded on them, and then the Right
lion. Gentleman says he did not make them.—(Cheers.)
33ut when a great party were banded together it was
niot natural to suppose that without some bond of union
'inThey would be employed by those holding situations
the Government of the Right Ho(
s
nourable Baronet.—
Cheers.) He delivered his protest againht
ef the Right Hon. Gentleman. He hoped the course
successful in his measures, and he was himselfe would be
as a_n_xio•
.4
about their success as when he was in office himself. *as convinced the good faith of the country - Re
get the
fie
het and though the Right Hon.. Gentleman might not
amount he desired, he would net. draw from
Thence any evil omen of the finances of she country.—
(Cheers.)
ta The CHANCELLOR of
,',;ho EXCHEQUER said
;tat Right Hon. Gentlemar, had concluded his speech
''''
sentiment which lie was is the habit of mine.
himself when in opposition viz., that the good faith 01
Me
A country 'WM secure, and that there was no reason to
,deg
of the finances of the country. He had stated
B°,,,lnie Objections to the measure he (the Chancellor of tte
xtacquer) proposed. He protested against the Ex-
eq,uerßills, but he reap (I;.d not understand the pro-
ae`se Meaning of his objernie.n. He said he thought it
',,essaryto redeem the unfunded. debt, and not to have
recourse to. a loan—but., his proposition met both those
atnad,s----(Hear, hear.) :He had objected to the principle
nets measure. He (tlae Claanceltor of the Exchequer)
h.,l?ew it greatly depene.ed o a the temper of the public
1,".41d; but, taking the who/ e of his measure together, he
,esad in his hands. the powe'a from subscriptions made, to '
th'!ecur the'tnifundeddebr, and to raise the amount for
had service of the year.— (Cheers.) So far the measure
the succeeded. But he, was told there was danger in
ae' Plan he adopted. He. -allowed there was, but there were
thens for doing so.Lo rd Monteagle attempted to fund Ex-
.hflaer Bills throug'a the medium of public competition.
()tares large capitalists made proposals different from each
kr)",er, one of which was the Bank of England, but he did
the succeed with either. He (the Chancellor of the Ba-
li:00er) did not think the principle of competition was
1104.'0 to the objections of the Right lion. Gentlemen op-
eil:te• lie conceiaad that all parties ought to have an equal
pi. nee of partaking of any benefit that might arise from his
I,o°,l)°,„,sitron. It would certainly be impossible to take
the from from one) man and, I,OOCL from another ; but
thou the small cr.pitalist could come in and subscribe upon
the saint terms, as the pers on having a million, and on
ea; Present occasion many persons bad done so. He did
sti ;I think it right to ret race the steps of Lord Mont-
tieTie,, who was not suceaessful in his attempt, and it
11.1,"t appear unjust to -',;hose who came forward in the
sot 'dietanee, to inak'a offers such as Government could
if aaeeept. Did the Bight Hon. Gentleman think that
%L, had offered a bonus of 18s. 9d. per cent. he could
atimmecl what he laad 'desired ? Certainly not. Why,
jt,,e.° Mr. S. Ric': had. proposed the loan for the West
letatialarla cennPensintion, he had offered a bonus of 31.185. per
%in ~eut. be (th.e Chancellor of the Exchequer) by a com-
tttation of 'advantages had been enabled to make a
tlen.iter hargo'in for the public. The Right Hon. Gen-
tile a° thoinght that he (the Chancellor of the Ex-
ile:l.ll'er), had damaged the credit of the country by
would terms which it was doubtful whether the public
his 'accept now. He had taken the best means in
ri,
It riftlWer to ascertain the terms which the public had
licel...a. to expect, and he had made his arrangements
to uagly. He thought it his duty to make this offer
sa,ra, Public, little regarding whether the whole of the
ills:. serlptioa was filled up so that lie could obtain suffi-
tit to accomplish his object. The Right lion. Gen-
itheaall had stated that he had offered ten per cent. less
aana° he had done ten years ago when he
had occupied the
pet, e °ffiee. Now, these matters were subject to such
or Aetual variation that it could not be matter of praise
en 'maize that these arrangements had been concluded
other;lu ore advantageous terms at one period than at an..
tined
que:(but since that period the Government had ob-
...t,he power of regulating the absorption of Exche-
varita.i:.eills„ so that they were enabled to obtain more ad-
tai ons terms than could have formerly been ob-
aefea",!: and he felt that it was better to stand there and
advau°,. himself against the charge of having made too
deren'tfaNious a bargain for the public, than to have to
seaancienanTelf against the charge of having uselessly
marl hard '7(l,the public money. Theßight Hon. Gentle-
Ilan . said that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer).
posltitiourmlunodreur.stood him on one point as regarded the ira-
that nata nets taxes. What he had said was,
exPenditureePrep.osing new taxes he must examine tho
then, u.s - as well as the revenue, and that, if he should
to he with go on Nithout the avenue,
find it impossible
state that the -welfare.pre
. new taxes, he could
imposition of now
s °- the country required the
of the public on thetalszuebieena4cliaPral to- the good sense
forward a crude and e were now to bring
undi,i,'neeerted scheme of taxation,
would he not be told b
look into the czpenditur-7, ar,lll,Gentlemen opposite to
woeln not bring dared the
his plan of finance' until l':c
. ered the subject, 80 Us to a, ~i had carefully consi-
bureeas if such
,iloulti,
113 h baeled to i
oupose the new
e"" necessary, in such 4 i,P thought they would, b-
atuaer as to produce tli

EVEN IN sU N

ai

least amount of inconvenience.—(Hear, hear.) The
Right lion. Gentleman had forgotten what he (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) had said when the question of
the Sugar Duties was under discussion, He had than
said that if time were given, the importation e: nor
would increase; and Coe'reveaue would increaSe hi conse-
quence ; and -such had been the case. He stood in a
different situation, Trout the late Government; they had
had 10 years to devote to the consideration of the subject.
Ile had had no opportunity of fully .eonsidering the
questions of finance to which the Right Hon. Gentleman
had alluded, and he would not be driven to act without
due preparation.—(l-Tear, hear, on the Ministerial
benches.) He did not know that it Ivould be necessary
for him to offer any further observations in reply to the
Right lion. Gentleman. It appeared to him to be evi-
dent that the Right Non. Gentleman approved of the
principle of hie plan, although he might object to certain
details ; and he, therefore, thanked the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman for the support he had given him.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. WILLIAMS said that he should be far from re-
commending the Right Hon. Gentleman the (Chancellor
of the Exchequer) under any circumstances, to have re-
course to fresh taxation. He believed that the deficiency
in the revenue might be easily made good, not by the
imposition of new taxes, but by having recourse to a,
system of economy which might be enforced with.oo
detsiment to the public service. The means
'o 1 any
f which
tile Right Hon. Gentleman proposed to
get out of his financial difficulties might appear to hire,. the easiest
which he could adopt ; but it was precisely the mode
in which every spendthrift CD.'-itei.VOred to get rid
of the ilifficulties into with-hi his. prodigality had
led him. For his part 'lie had heard the Right
Honourable Gentleman's, proposition with great pain
and regret. No reasoreable man could have expected to
find that they ghoul' be called on to add so largely to
the debt of the corantry after twenty-five years of peace.
During the seven years which had elapsed since 1634,
an addition bad been made to the funded debt of this
country of 'a sum of 33,900,0001. of which the annual
interest "-arts 1,167,0001. The proposition of the Right
Hon. gentleman would make the debt incurred since
1834., amount in ail to the sum of 36,500,000 ; which
.as at the rate of more than 5,000,00 C/ during each of
the last seven years. He knew he would be told that
twenty millions of that sum had been incurred for the
purpose of purchasing the emancipation of the 'West
India slaves, and that that sum had been devoted to
a just and righteous purpose. That he believed was the
opinion of the country; but he should say the tif the
present generation so highly estimated that act, they
might have borne the cost of it, and not throw the burden
upon posterity. What could be more unjust
or more dishonest, than that the present gene-
ration should contract a debt, the payment of which
would devolve upon future generations. An end must
conic to the system of adding to the national expendi-
ture during time of peace. They had, in the course of
seven years, added 36,000,00 W. to a debt already ex-
ceeding 800,000,000/. Was there to be no. end to this
accumulution of debt? Could any man suppose that this
increasing weight could be borne for any great length of
time, or that generation after generation would continue:
to pay the interest of such a sum? He believed that no
rational being could believe that the system could be pro-
longed. What was to be the end of it? When the end '
came, and come it would inevitably, it would be at tended
with consequences which no human being could calcu-
late. But, instead of there being any necessity for im-
posing additional taxes at the present moment, lie hoped
he should be able to show, and not from any speculative
doctrines of his own, that by the adoption of a system
of rigid economy, not only the whole of the present
deficiency might be made up, but a considerable saving
in the national income might be effected besides. The
amount in the estimates of the present year of
those four branches of the public service, the
Army, the Navy, the Ordnance, and the Mis-
cellaneous, amounted to 18,949,000/ As he wished,
however, to contrast the expenses of the service
of the present year with the expenses of former years he
would deduct the extra charges of the present year. He
would deduct 400,0001. for China and 155,0001. for
Canada, and the expenditure in the navy over the last
two years, which amounted to 191,0001., making alto-
gether 746,0001. ; and that sum deducted from the
amount he had previously named would leave for the
four branches of the service for the present year the stun
of 18,200,000/. Now, he did not think he could do
better than refer to the last year when Hon. Gentlemen
opposite were in office before. He asked, then, what
difference there was in the circumstances of the country,
as compared with the year 1830; which could make a
difference in the expenses of the }public service during
the two periods necessary. The expenses of the four
branches of the service he had alluded tb amounted in
1830 to 15,860,0004 being less than the sum requlred
for the present year, after making the deductions he had
mentioned, of 3,330,000/. That would just complete the
sum which the Right Hon. Gentleman wanted to add to
the funded debt this year. He could refer the Right
Hon. Gentleman to a still better example. During the
years 1834, 1835, 1836, and 1837 the expenses of the
four branches under the late Government amounted in
the average to no more than 14,148,0001., making a less
sum than that proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman.
of 4,055,0001. If the Right Hon. Gentleman would only
adopt the estimates of those four years he would have
the deficiency of the present year, and of the four last
years, almost entirely made up for him in one year. He
should like to learn what there was in the peculiar cir-
cumstances of the country now which rendered so largo
an increase in the expenditure of the four services ne-
cessary? He could point out no material difference in the
circumstances of the country, compared with former
periods, which imposed such a necessity either as re-
garded the state of public feeling at home or the state of
our foreign relations. In 1830 a great convulsion had
taken place in France, the consequences of which •
man could foresee. In this country a great po-' • • 11°
tho population ware in a most distracted can -61. r
s4h-
state. In some districts both life and pr. - di&-sned
secure. But what was the state of t' ...T7ity- were in-
present moment ? He believed th ate eseuntry at the
isted in the country, and that eatereheater distress ex-
greater privations, than ha' at people were suffering
.e teen ever known in this
country at any period of
was tranquil, and no . 4,'shistory ; but still everything
With regard too political disaffection was displayed.
e
ti
nis alddm it it er foreign relations the Eastern queS-
svere upon all hands to be now settled. They •
.te'
her Majesty's Speech at the commencement
oto
.scion " that the causes which had for a time
shoefrPtabre' ...Steed France from the other great Powers of Europe
Al ceased." Canada was now in a tranquil state ; and
ne would venture to assert, from his own observation of
public feeling in that country, that if the same course
was pursued hereafter in Canada, which had been fol-
lowed by Lord Sydenham, they would have that country
firmly and honestly attached to this. Again, in the
United States of America, he had no doubt but the
questions that estranged that country from its good feel-
ing towards us, if affairs were properly managed, might
be settled amicably : for he had reason to believe that
the great body of the people of the United States—and
they governed the country absolutely—were decidedly
in favour of a continuance of amicable relations with this
county. He also begged leave to point out another branch
j 0..‘; the public service in which a great reduction might
be effected—namely, in the collection of the revenue.
Re found that the amount of taxes collected last year
amounted to 51,850,0004 and that the cost of the col-
lection, as appeared from a paper laid before Parliament,
amounted to 4,280,0001., being more than 8 per cent.
upon the entire revenue. Now such an expense would
appear to him monstrous under any circumstances, but
when he compared that charge with the amount of for-
mer years, it appeared to him a matter in which a very
great reduction might be made. He found from a return
made by the Treasury to the Finance Committee, that in
the year 1806 the amount of taxes levied amounted to •
upwards of 58,000,000/e while the amount of the collec-
tion amounted to no more than 2,790,000/, being no
more than 41 per cent. upon the whole sum. He should
like to know what was the cause of the vast difference
between the cost of collection then and its cost at the pre-
sent day. There was then 1,300,000/. less expended in
collection than now, although the amount of collec-
tion was greater by the sum of 6,000,0001. Add
then 1,300,000/. to 4,200,0001 excess in the public
service, and they would have a sum of 5,500,0001.,
/which might be saved in the present year. That
was not a mere speculative opinion. He gave it to
them from data which were, he believed, quite unques-
tionable. Besides they should remember that, in 1806,
when the collection amounted to no more than 2,790,0001.
the value of money, as compared with the present day,
was but 14s. or 13s. in the pound. This sum of
4,200,000/., the present cost of collection, never found
its way into the T:reasury ; but every department put a
finger in the public purse and took out• as much as was
required for its own expenses. That Was a most objec-
could neve
tionable system ; tend so long as it was continued they
effect any solid and efficient reduction. He
said that such a system should be amended ; and he
hoped the present Government would take the subject
into its most serious consideration, and that they would
adopt the p i
lan whch he believed was in operation
some fifty or sixty yars ago in this country (although
he was not sure of the fact), namely, that of enforcing
the payment of all revenue into the Treasury, and let-
ting the Treasury afterwards make a repayment of the
necessary sums to the officers of the different depart-
meats. The House of Commons ought to have, then,
before them to be annually investigated.
4,(Hear,oo,
He was aware that that was a source of
200h0e/. hear.)
l.a)id
great patronage to a Government, and he was also aware
how they were pressed for such patronage. He did not
speak of the present Government alone, but still he
thought that the sum in question should be laid before
the House among the estimates of the year, and without
i
wishing to cast any sort of obloquy
reduction mighte
don the Government
he would venture to say, that a vast
effected in that department. He understooda that, before
the time of Mr. Pitt's Administration,
collection, but that dering his Administration
control was exercised by the Treasury over thetheaxtpeennnsteroolf
was entirely withdrawn. I have a very remarkablemmade
b
.)proof
of the effect of that withdrawal in a speech the
late Duke of Buckingham, in the year 1837, lie said
" Every office seems to be the Lord of its own will, and
every officer seems. to have an unlimited power over the
Purse of the nation, instead of their being, as the Spirtt
of the Constitution directs, under the constant eheok of
the Treasury." He begged to read upon the same sub-
ject an extract from a digest of a Report of the Commis-
sion of Inquiry into the Excise Establishments. They
say "that the charge of the collection for the revenue
and the' payment of such revenue in its progress to the
Treasury, amounted to 4,500,0001., which was obtained
by stopping that amount out of the gross revenue in its
progress to the Exchequer, or that that amount of the
produce of the taxation was not paid into the Exche-
quer, contrary to the great principle of the Constitution,
-which requires that the Exchequer should possess the
moans of securing the legal appropriation of the money
levied upon the public." Now, lie quite agreed with that
Report, and he
degreeth ohjectionable, and that it did en-
tail a vast expense, which he had no doubt was totally
unnecess4ry. He did trust that the prose ,t

piration of the financial year, and that five months had elapsed
since that time, he did not think it was either just or proper
for the .Ministry now to say that more time should be granted
to them to make up their minds.—(Hear.) They attributed
the distress to overtrading—to the Joint-stock Banks—
bYeie Whbther it was one or other of these causes, or whether
it was attributable to the Corn-laws, or a system of vicious
Legislation, it seats agreed on all hands that it could not be
removed except by an eestension of our manufactures and trade,
which could only be effected by a large revisal of our fiscal
regulations. The Right Hon. Baronet said the country ap-
proved of his conduct, because, before the election, he had
stated what it would be—he (Mr. Wood) admitted the fact
—the Right Hon. Baronet stated it before the dissolution ;
but he (Mr. Wood) confessed he very much doubted the
accuracy of the impression made upon the mind of the Hon.
Baronet his declaration was very little known in the country.
Last year Hon. Gentlemen opposite opposed the Budget, and
talked loudly of their opposition to any addition to the Debt;
but now they came forward and proposed the very measure
they so much decried. After what had taken place-
last year,
the country had a right to expect any other course
from the Honourable Gentleman than the one they
had taken. He admitted they had received the confidence
of the country ; but they had received the support of the dif-
ferent bodies on very different grounds.. The agriculturists in
the counties gave their support in the confident hope of main-
taining the Corn-laws ; but no one could say for a moment that
the support given to gentlemen opposite in the manufacturing
districts was because of the attachment of the manufacturers
to the Corn-laws. The verdict of the country was more
against the men than the measures.---(Hear, hear.) Some
deubted, however erroneously, the sincerity of the late Go-
vernment, while others doubted their power to carry the mea-
sures they had propounded, therefore they changed ; but they
did not, grvetheir support to the Right Hon. Baronet, because
he would do nothing for a whole year. He believed they give
it more because they expected Hon. Gentlemen opposite would
do more than the late Government. It was a gross fallacy to
say that the sliding scale prevented fluctuations or protected
the grower. Look et what had taken place only
during the past week. When corn was high some time ago,
the foreign corn was prohibited, and our farmers had none to
give—they were prevented from taking advantage of the high
prices.' fly-and-bye comes the harvest, but just before our
farmers have their supply ready, the sliding scale suddenly
admits one million and a half of quarters of corn, at the duty
of Is., and so depriving him of his market by unnaturally re-
ducing the price. Every one knew that the high price of corn
had no effect on wages. That was shown ever since 18.56.
From that period corn had been gradually rising, while wages
had been as gradually failing. But he was happy that that
was now a feet admitted by the Noble Lord opposite (Stanley).
No doubt the great difficulty was the' Core-laws. That was
the question which defeated: the Budget of his Right Hon.
Friend, far Mr. Handler frankly admitted that he supported
the sugar monopoly merely as a defence for his own. Ile felt
confident that some such measures must be forthcoming. No
doubt the difficulties of the Right Hon. Baronet would be
great, and it would require all the time between then and
February to win over his supporters to such a course; but when
party excitement abated, the feelings of humanity, which were
largely possessed by the landed proprietors of England, would
come into full play,, their eyes would become open to the fal-
lacies which they had been taught to believe—they must soon
' see that it was ridiculous to talk of the independence of this
country for a supply. of food, when at least one million of
quarters had been imported every year since the law passed.
They must know that an increased population, without any in-
crease of production, must destroy independence, and then they
would be actuated by a feeling of kindness to do all in their
power to alleviate the distress of the country. If all that
shoulJ be accomplished by the delay asked for by the Right
Hon. Baronet, he would cheerfully acquiesce in it, as it would
be one of the greatest of blessings ever conferred on the
country.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER here made
a few observations in explanation across the table, which did
not distinctly reach us. We understood the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman to say that he presumed his Right Hots. Friend (Mr. F.
Baring) had made his estimates in the usual way. He did not
pretend to state beforehand what every item was likely to pro-
duce, but taking the amount of the revenue at stated periods,
and balancing the deficiencies andthe increases, he could arrive
at something like an approximation to the amount.—
(Hear, hear.) With respect to corn, it was admitted
in every discussion that had taken place upon the subject that
what was received by way of duty upon that article was lost in
others, and what was lost by corn was gained in the increased
consumption of other articles. He (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) had never thought of stating, in ignorance of what
the probable result of the harvest might be, what was the
amount of duty to be derived from corn. As regarded the
article of sugar in the last year, there had been a reduction in
the amount of the duty of 163,000/. ; but upon the whole of
the year, up to the present period, there had been an augmenta-
tion to the amount of P 20,000/. ; and in the course of the last
four monehs the augmentation upon the sugar duties, amounted
to nearly 300,9004, as compared with the corresponding period
of feet year.
Mr. F. BARING wisieed to know whether the Right Hon.
Gentleman expected to derive an additional revenue of 700,0001.
from British plantation sugar, without making any alteration in
the present rate of duties?
The CHANCICLLOR of the Exeneoutre. and AI. C. WOOD
MgCle a few observations, after which the resolution for fund-
ing five millions of Exchequer Bills was put and agreed to.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE-
QUER, who stated that only half the amount bad beets voted
in the last Session of Parliament, a sum of 10,626,3501., to be
raised by Exchequer Bills, was voted to make good the esti-
mates voted for the service of her Majesty for the year 1841.
The Howse then resumed, and the Report was ordered to
be received to-morrow.

EVENING SUN

i Mr. STUART WORTLEY sa i-4 there was great reason
in what had fallen from the Right is
on. Baronet who had just
sat. down, and he trusted the Hon. ..Member for York would,
tion of some difficulty to whose ineliseations it was repugnant e
not, by pressing his motion, place Hon. Gentlemen in a posi-.
to give a vote contrary to the principle of the instruction :
which he wished to submit to the douse. Proposing to make
bet of
, ivech the
wouled ffec
any alteration in the Poorelaw could only ha
opening the question of other alterations, trhh n
fact, undertaking to do that which would be imps, `sable for the
-s
Government at present, namely, to commence the entire die
cession of that great and extensive question. Undt.7 . thews,
circumstances he could net help thinking that it was b."
n°a
means an unreasonable request if the Hon. Member should .
asked to give in on the present occasion andlet this great subject '
be discussed hereafter. He (Mr. S. Wortley) did not mean in
the slightest to give countenance to that principle which the
Hon. Gentleman meant to condemn—that principle which
justified • separation of husband and wife to the extent to
which it had been carried. But what the Right Hon. Mem-
ber for Dorchester said was perfectly true—that the separation
of the sexes depended on the question as to whether they
should collect large numbers of paupers into one Union.
Therefore if they- discussed whether they would separate the
sexes, they should, to deal fairly with the subject, go into the
whole question.—(Loud cheers.) That appeared to hire as a
good reason for adjourning this important and extensive ques-
tion. If the Hon. Gentleman persteted in pressing his in-
struction, it would be extremely empignant to his ( Mr. S.
tVortley's) inclinations and feelings to jive any vote which
would countenance a principle of the descohition under con-
sideration. Yet he confessed wider existing oircumstances.
—(Cheers and laughter freva the Opposition benches:) He knew
what that cheer meant, lie was unwilling, it was 01Thseds
to face the question which the Hon. Gentleman was incloheel to
place before the House, lest he should be placed in any eme‘r-
rassment with respect to her tlajeety's Ministers. That we.'
not the case. He would take an opportunity of expressing his
opinions fully on the subject, and he would not shrink from mak-
ing known to Ministers what he felt un the subject. He
thought it desirable that they should, do one of two thine.--
either to proceed at once to the entire discussion of the Poor-
law, and ucal with it as they intended. to do at a future period,
' or else they should allow the question, together with those
matters which would open the whole subject,
_to remain at rest
until the period arrived at which it appeared reasonable they
should enter upon the consideration of the entire mea-
sure.—(Hear, hear,) If they allowed itiscussion on one point,
they should allow it on all othere--( Hear)—the bastardy
I clause—that regarding out-door relief, &c., and if the House
was prepared then to enter upon the whole, why it might do
so. But he thought the Right Hon. Baronet and his col-
leagues in office were justified, under the circumstances in
which they arrived at power, in asking; for same lapse of tithe
fur the purpose of considering a question of such importance is
the Poor-laws, with the attention and care it required—a ques-
tion which the Whig Government of 1833 and 18j4 took two
pars to consider, and respecting whitsh, certainly, the present
asavernment had some right to demand a few months, with a
view of considering it fully before they brought in a Bill to put •
the measure he a satisfactory state. There was one instruc-
tion to which he did riot entertain these objections, and that
was the first one which was proposed by the Hon. Member for
Rt clulale, namely, " That it shall nch be lawful for the Com-
missioners, from the date of the pass'ing of this Bill, to declare
the formation of any new unions in oestricts which are not al-
reo iy placed under the operation of the Act 4 and 5 Will. IV.,
c. 76. That instruction had reason and justice in it, indepen-
dent of the merits of the general question. The general ques-
tion reepecting the amendment of the law was at present in a
state of suspense. Ile believed that those who were thoroughly
interested in the question—those whom the future proceedings
of the Commissioners might deeply affect, had fairly a right to
ask, that during the period the question was to be put
in suspense, the Commissioners should abstain front
carryiug their operations further than they had been already
carried. He, therefore, must say that towards the principle of
that instruction he entertained a different opinion from that
he had towards the others. He thought that so long as it should
remain in that state of uncertainty in which it must be before
a Bill on the subject was brought before the House—during that
period he thought the Commissioners should not pro-
ceed to extend the Unions over other parts of the
country. The districts which he had the honour of represent-
ing were deeply interested in that part of the subject ; and he
did but his duty towards those districts when he said that they
had a right to ask, that that question should be left in statu
quo, as the case required,
kr. V. SMITH said, he certainly felt for the embarrassed
state in which the Hoa. Gente found himself, in being sud-
denlyealled on to take one side or the other on this important
question. He (Mr. Vernon Smith) thought the course sum.
gested by the lion. Gentleman unbecoming the House. That
Hon. Member'bid them waive the questions which were of most
importatece—delicate and interesting questions--questions of
weight and moment. But let them consider the questions
which had been proposed by the Hon. Member for Rochdale.
Now it appeared to him that they were not to discuss any great
question this Session. So it had been said by the Right Hon.
Baronet at the head of the Government. The present was not, he
thought, the only deviation from that regulation which would
be attended with inconvenience. He conceived that this ques-
tion was one of such intense interest, that if they were not to.
discuss the Corn-laws in conjunction with it they,-
ought to separate it from that measure after the pro-
clamation ot those miraculous Ministers who were
to advise nothing— they having nothing to advise
the Crown.—( Hear, and laughter.) If such was to be
the case, he thought the position of the Right hon. Member
for Dorchester not an unfair one. But he must say, that the
embarrassment of the Hon. Gentleman who had last spoken
was to be attributed, not to the Right Hon. Baronet opposite,
but to the course pursued by Hon. Gentlemen on the other
side of the Rollie. It should be recollected, when Govern-
ment said they meant to continue all expiring laws from De-
cember, that the Poor-law required no continuance; it was
the Commission only which expired ; and when the Right Hon.
Gentleman proposed the continuance of the Commission, he
did not say for what time he meant to continue it. Would -
it not be more manly if the Right Honourable Gen.
tleman thought, that the Commission ought to last for five
years, to have proposed that period at once, and not
to be potterzny with Parliament ,in such a way. The flight
Hon. Baronet declared over and over again, that five years was
the period that he wished the Commission to continue, and if
he proposed that period there would be no difficulty in con-
trolling the Commission. He (Mr. V. Smith) did not mean
to object to the proposal of the Right Hon. Member for Dor-
chester, but if any man was to settle the question, assuredly that
Right Hon. Gentleman was the person. He (Mr. V. Smith)
had lately read a speech of a Noble Lord elected for Monmouth
(Lord G. Somerset), who made a sort of apology for having
the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) and the Noble
Lord (Lord Stanley) in the Cabinet.—( Hear, hear.)
He said they were very talented and able men, but as
for himself lie regretted to see them in the Cabinet. He
(Mr. V. S.) therefore extremely rejoiced to see the Right
Hon. Member for Dorchester corning forward on the present
occasion. If h,:. was called on to vote he should vote against
l all instructions equally, in order that the whole object for
1 consideration would be the continuance of the Poor-law Com-
missioners. Upon the continuance of that commission they
, •tht in his mind to be called on to give a decided opinion.
"Mb:- R. PEEL said he was sorry to see the Hon. Gentleman
so MCI • excited on this subject.—(Cheers.) He appeared
.
unable to calm his insubordinate indignation in the absence of
his leader.—
-(Cheers.) He (Sir B. Peel) begged leave to
acquaint him shat it was intimated to him (Sir It. Peel) at an
early period of te!'e present Session that the Noble Lord, the
late
of &etc for the Colonial Department, had in-
tended e to introduce a Bill for the continuance
Secretary t
of the Poor-law until the` end of the next Session of Pallia...
ment, and that the measure which he (Sir R. Peel) now pro-
move for lea,-
posed was exactly in conformity wi :le that which the Noble
Lord (Lord John Russell) himself intended to introduce.
Yes, it was intimated to him by the Member for the
City of London, lately at the head of her Majesty's Govern-
ment, that it was impossible, in the oourse of the present Ses-
sion, to proceed to consider those tnt olifications in the Poor-
her, to which he had intended i o call the attention of the
House, and that it had licen his intont ion, during the period of
Isis tenure of office, to give notice of a Bill, for the purpose of
continuing the Commission for the period of one year.—
(Cheers.) That being notified to bins (Sir R. Peel) on the
part of the late Government, it did 9/ -ear to him a reasonable
proposal to make the same proposition ; and he was surprised
that, on his making it, she Hon. Gentleman should have dis-
P •
lay •d so much unnecessary indignation.— (Cheers.)
Mr JERVIS said he was at a loss to understand how what
had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman opposite could dissuade
time oho were opposed to this measure from giving their op..
the views taken by the Hen. Member for
position to it. It might be a reason if the Hon. Gentleman
fairly represented
Northampton, but it was no ,•! round whatever for calling open
those who had formerly oppessed the law, or those who were
returned for the express purpose of so doing, for now pressing
on the present Government this question, on which at all
events, the Secretary.
of State for us
e Home Department, and
,17etnnxis of
whim , every Member of the
nt, must be prepared to express
opinion,athoe Members
aoodf
withth e Go
thelfo urge thebeueemuse f
necessityacquaintedoc furne c etbses
to
Right Hon. Boronet could
not
info..
'nation peculiarly
within reach of the Government as t ground fo.-
delay, informa-
tion on this subject hero"as open to tell as It ~1.8 to the Go-
vernment.—( Hear. ) But his Hon. FriOOd (Mee V• Smith)
did not apply his observations to the
by the Noble Lord. His complaint was, that this
rnentleTvinßgi•ghtht ni as not a,
Bill to Iv .introduced
the Commission
fcoornrfinivrereydeawrsi,thhothteh,"o:l,74
Bill to renew the Commission, but a Bill to renew ~`lie law;
that he ought
Lordandwihne
now to be prepared to bring forward his meaa'
sure boldly and openly, though he might alienate
the support of .
many lion. Gentlemen, the opponents
of the measure, by
whom he was brought into office. (H ear, hear.) He appre-
hended they had a right to call on Hon. Gentlemen opp
e osite to •
tell them how they would deal with this measur and having
opposed the whole -Bill, though he had never lent himself to
excite the people against it, he would oppose the Government
on the question, so long as they would not boldly declare their
opinions upon it. He was happy the Right Hon. Gent. had said
that this was something like the measure to be proposed by the
Noble Lord (J. Russelll, for that would release the ilon:
Member for Finsbury (t r. Wakley) from all his new engage
ments—(Laughter)—for it was certoi n that if it had beets
e”_pro-
posed by the Noble Lord, he (Mr. Wakley) would haveose.
' posed it, as also would many other Hon. Gentlemen 01,Lv'et i,
—( Hear, hear.) When the address to the Crown wasoadmitted
the Hon, Member (Mr. Waliley) doubted whether it
the
ques-
tion existence of the distress in the country, andiatpiuM admitted
tion to the Right Hon. Barer:et, Who stated
then not time be-
the prevalence of great distress. Had they t____s increasing,
tween that and winter, when distress :a people were
and when, in consequence, thousanodts of
time to spare
ground to the dust—had they
not
recreations, to
from their ehooffiefa and hunting
distress ?
He spoke not
inquire at least into ill.' causes of that
svhich it was said time should
of the great financial a
suLstir ofnadministering relief by which
be afforded, but of that moo. e ?;stress was greatly increased.--
it was supposed by some that e ermation required or not ? or
(Hear, hear.) Was further int, r
two main principles which
had they not to deal with the ono
_erabi...m,
) had contested, step
the Right Hon. Baronet (••ie.hia(tei late-Mott.' her for Nottingham,
by step, with Mr. Walter, theOe the Right .Hon: Baronet said
and beat him on them ?
W hen
was a neeess ' consequence of
that the separation of the sexes
a s tion was he
of persons in one instils. ,
assembling a large body
not aware that this assembly Ito was owing to the refuse grant
out-door relief?
obtain relief;the poor were obliged to sell any furtmeurc '
they might possess to enter the workhouse, thereby taking front
them the means of returning to their homes—when this
was considered, and the distressed stete of the poor was de..
ploi
•ed in
. that House, but not remedied—when all this
was
eensidered, was it too much to call upon the Right Hon. Bart
to enter upon the consideration of the subject? And
would
it satisfy the people to know that Hon- Gentlemen oip
scanted time to inquire into what they had uniformly
po°siedte'
out of office, and on which they had excited th
n—
-3 -
e people to
remedy which, when in office, they had not the c • ourage to un-
dertake the responsibility ?—( Hear, hear, f •
Peel.) He understood the Right Hon. Baronet'stom Sir Robert
the Right lion. Baronet could not accuse h' cheers, bait
constituents on the subject. He had never aidind of exciting his
the subject at all.—( Hear, hear.)
Re
had ressed them on
opposed to the measure, but he had s been uniformly
corned to use it for the
purpose of exciting the people. He had scorned
means of his advancement out of the Horu to make it the
from the responsibility of opposing it there
if r, and to shrink
it were the means
of annoyance to the party with which he was connected. The
only excuse that could be made for separating the House at
that period of the year was, that it would be convenient for the
present to forget the distress of the peo Hearle.—
h r
Itlr3 PAKINGTON said he would Fs
( e.).
not enter into the in-
structions moved by the Gentleman opposite, neither would