The Sun.
London, England, 1812-03-14 00:00:00

MUTINY BILL

On the motion for the third readings of the Mu-
.
iny Bill,
Sir P. BURDETT rose iticonseruence of his no-
ice; to do that' which he conceived to be not only
a .duty to the army, but, under the existing cir-
cumstances, a duly to the country at large. He
was persuaded, that there were very few Gentle-
men whd were not as desirous as himself to get rid of
flogging in the army, an inflittion, which, ts) a cir-
cumlocution, was termed corporal punishment, as
if those, whri stippurtedahe pradice, were esharned
of the direet and simple word by which it was de-
scribed. The object which he had in view was, by
no means to abolish other descriptions of corporal
punishtrient, such, for instance, as temporary im-
prisonment, which might, and mutt be, very ne-
cessary to the diseipline of an army ; but only that
particular description of eureoral putti4imeet. In
cases which required such severity, even death was
preferable to the lash ; it wouiu cresnoce more to
the good of the service, and it would better main-
tain the honour and character of the soldie, and of
the nation. He was persuaded, that many Gentle-
men were not aware of the consequences of the pu-
nishment which he reprobated. He was persead-
ed, that they did not take iuto their consideration
the disqualifications which it occasioned ; a rL.flec-
tion of stilt greater importance, when it was recol-
leded that our present military system embraced the
whole male populat'on of the country above the age
of eighteen years. Mr. Justice Blackstone, put the
who. had been punished by, flogging,. on
a footing with those who had been convitted the
worst and most disgraceful crimes. According to
him, they might be challenged on juries, and were
liable to other severe legal disabilities. 41e (Sir F.
B.) had found it impossible to trace the way in
which this praelice 'had crept into the army, but he
believed,s that it was only during the present war
that it had been culled to a great and dangerous
extent. In fact, it was in the nature of such punish-
ment to go on in an increasing ratio; for when a
class of persons Were accustomed to one degree of
severity, it would soon cease to operate in prevent-
ing the commission of those 'offences against which
it was originally diretted.. This was the uniform
course of severe punishments in all countries, until
at length they arrived at a pitch at which humanity
shuddered, and were, nevertheless, found to be de-
fedive and inefficient. Certain, he W 3,, that on
this subjed, all who heard him, niustpartake of the
abhorrence which he felt, although perhaps not to
that extreme degree entertained by hitnself.. lae
trusted their abhorrence, would be increased, if he,
could shew,that this praclice was as impolitic as it was
inhuman. To prove this, however, was no easy
task ; for it was alWaya difficult to establish that by
reason on which the heart instantly deter Mined ;
and he confesses! that he almost doubted his power
of convincing the understanding of those, who did
not ineeiediately.revolt from the contemplation of
the usage, and who could be cool enough to enter
into an argument upon it That it was not an anci-
ent pradice, a reference to the Statute Book would
sitaiLiently evince. In the early Statutes, the pu-
nishrnerrs of military offences, like those of other
offences, were specified, and those offences, like
other ofiencea, were universally referred to the de-
ciSioe of Jude,es and a Jury.
,The 18th of Henry
VI. declared military desertion to be felony without
benefit of clergy, and provided that the offender
should be tried ny a Jury. There were statutes of
Henry VII: and of Likl'usard VI.. to the same erred.
y tho'se statutes, absenCe from the muster-roll was
punishable by a short imprisonment, while, by de-
sertion the puntshnient nt death was declared to be
incurred. So it was during the deigns of Henry
VIII. and Philip and Mary, and up to that last
named period, military offences were tried by the
same tribunals as offences of every other descripti-
on, and were punished by similar intlietious. , He
believed that any upholder of rise present.system of
flogging would he eery much, put to it to shew that
it was the practice e. en in the armies under the g'o-
Tiell3 Duke of Marlborough. Indeed he (Sir Fran--
cis) had it from persons who had been very long in
the army, that in their yo.ith years and years elapsed
without rt solitary instance of the recurrence of
this punishment.- In lieu of it, men were drum-
med out of a regiment. When a boy, he re-
colleCled having had such men pointed out to him.
This praCliee of drummingg out had however ceased.
The inference Was, that there was such a change in
the condition of a soldier, that to send him out ,of
the army was tb benefit, and not to punish him.—
Torture had been substituted for dismissal. And
why The Only reason was, that our soldiers did
not receive a reward adequate to their servic'es. An
Officer was not flogged. To disitsias him was con-
sidereda sufficient punishment fbr many otfeeces ;
btu to dis Miss a soldier was considered a reward.—
.The Learned Judge -Advocate had 'told the House
the other day, that he had great consolation in in-
forming them, that during the last year, there liad
been only eight soldiers sentenced to be flogged by
General Courts Martial, and that of those eight sen-
tences only one had been inflicted, which one was
also at the option of the offender, who preferred
tv 111,

ally he was at a loss to know whence the Learned
Gentleman derived his consolation. If he meant to
say,. that this disgraceful pueishment had decreased.
in fr&pency, the fads which the Learned Gentle-
man had stated did nOt bear him out in the assertion.
It was well known that punishments, of thatade-
seription, consequent on the sentences of General
Courts Martial, were not numerous. Had the
Learned Gentleman stated the matter fairly, he
would have told the Rouse hoW many floggings had
been intlitied in consequence of the sentences of
Regimental and not of General Courts Martial. In
ttiat-Case, he feared the Learned Gentleman might
have added the word- " thousands" to the word .
"'eight." Such, he was informed, was the Ilia, and
in that case it could not be said that military flogg.e.g
was on the decline. He should be happy, however,
to be further enlightened on the subject by the
Learned Gentleman. With respe& to the effect of
-this species of punishment, the greater part, if not
all the -officers with whom he had any conversation
.on the subject, declared unu voce that it was a mode
-of punishment' which had been sadly abused, and
that it could- not be got rid of altogether, at least the
offences should he specified to whit:ll.4 might con-
tinue to be applied. In 'support of these veriael
opiuionsl he quoted the written otres of Gentle'
Colbourite, Major Jamea, Sir •RoberaWilson, Gene-
ral Stuart, &c. who concurred in describing flogging
as a punishment cruel in the greatest degree, and so
stigmatising in its nature, that the man on whom it
had been inflicted was rarely afterwards able to hold
up h.s. head: , They unanimously declared, that for
one who was reformed lay the punishment, many a
good soldier
.(guiity of no moral crime, perhaps),
tumbrel to bear the shame in-which be was involved,
became woolly regardless of his future conduct, and
was lost to the service and to the country. He had
been informed that men who had undergone a tor-
ture, which appeared to be too much for human na-
ture had long afterwards been known to shed tears
like a child at the recollection of the disgrace they had
- sotfered. He put it,to the House, whether men
capableat once of such fortitude and such feeling,
should be exposed to a punishment which, if in-
fbeted at all, ought to be reserved for the basest
of mankind, and to which the members of a pro-
fession of which honourable -feelings were the basis„
ought never to be subjected. By it perseverance in
this system, the moral character of the British sol-
diery would be destroyed, and with it all those
great energies on which the country must ultimate-
ly rely fur protection. When Patliament contem-
plated the conduCt of our gallant troops, and the
way in which they had maintained the ancient cha-
racter of the national bravery, they would, feel . the
claim which the Army had on the consideration of
'the country, and they-must feel that men who had
strewn themselves capable of such glorious exploits,
did not need that description of discipline which it
was the object of his motion to abolish. This
feeling must be.strengthened by the knowledge that
the best regiments in the British service were those
in which the practice of flogging least prevailed.
Whenever the Officers 'of a regiment used proper
vigilance to see, that the soldiers had their 'dues,
when they removed the suspicion of ill-treatment,
when they checked small offences, and thus re-
pressed the spirit of disorder in its infancy—when
a regiment was fortueate enough to possess such
Officers, there would be seldom found occasion to
use a cat o'nine tails. Formerly much of the se-
verity of military discipline arose from a suspicion
(too frequently well grounded) on the part of ,the
soldiers that they- Were unfairly tteaied. A great
portion howeVer of the causes of this suspicion had
been done away in the British army. Discontent
therefore, and the offences to which it instigated, had
diminished, and this horrible punishment was conse-
quently rendered less necessary, if, indeed, it could
ever be said to have been at all so. lie was happy to
bear this testimony to the efforts made to diminish
those abUses by which the comforts of' the private had
been so seriously invaded. As a specimen of
%these
efforts, he -cited an' Order addresSed to one of the
Regiments of Guards, prohibiting every Non-com-
missioned Officer• from deriving any profit from the
purchases which he might make for the uses of the
privates. At the same time, from what he had ob-
served while in the 'Towers he believed that there
were still some grievances (at least they were so re-
presented to him) Which would admit of relief.-
-The greatest, -however, of ail grievances was that
which he was
_then condemning. It was impossible
to-know how many -soldiers died in consequence of
this punishment. Not long ago -no Jess than-eight
died at Gibraltar in consequence of it. When a
ninth "man was brought to the Court Martial, the
Officer, refused to itifliCt the punishment upon him.
They were dismissed and sent home; but on a re-
presentation made to the Commander in Chief they
were reinstatedin their rank. In.his first report of
these cases, the Surgeon staled that these unfortunate
men died of penishment; in his .second, that they
died of fiver. There was one great advantage which
attended the substitution of the punishment of
death for that of flogging. It would • not be so
lightly infliaed. Flogging was also a most une-
qual punishment. Net only did the severity of it
depend in a great degree on the caprice of, the
Commanding Officer under w hose orders it was in-
flicted, but en the sensibility of the unfortunate be-
ing on whom it Was iofrieted. The instruments of
torture too might be vat ie.l, according to the dia-
position of the intlialor of the punishment. In
different regiments, however,, different instruments
were used ; and even in the same regiment, accord-
ing to the idea which the Officers entertained of the
offence committed. It bad been argued that the
army was composed of such a description of men as
to render this punishment necessary. 'How unjust
the imputation the acts of that artny abundantly
established. Unquestionably if the late practice of
introducing men from the hulks into our brave and
honourable regiments were to be permitted, some
jestification might be found for this base punish-
Mem. But how indefensible was it to treat the
vvist;tle army with indignity on the score of a few
hub Ired wretches who had been sent to increase its
'numbers, though certainly not to augment its
strength. There were some Hon. Gentlemen, how-
ever, who possessed such a perverted humanity ;
ho were so tender of human life, though not
of human feelings; who were so economical in
their views on the • subjea, that they would not
indict that punishment on heinous military of-
fences] which- would immediately deprive the coun-
try of the services of those on whom it might be in-
. • I\T

the most humane punishment, and that by which
the number amen in the service would be increased
(considered in comparison with. flogging), was death.
Let the Recruiting Officers be asked, as to the ape,'
ration of the feared flogging on those who may wish
to enlist ? What was the answer of such men'ta
their invitation ? /‘ No, no ; we will not run the
risk of being tied to the halberts." To this evil was
to be attribute& the high bounties. To this evil
was to be attributed the numerous desertions ; tor
many so/diets who had been guilty of trivial offences,
-apprehensive of the torture of this punishment, en-
deavoured to make their escape, by desertion, with
the siew.of at least postponing the evil day. " But,"
said those who were opposed to him in opinion ors
this subject,." what thsli we substitute (or' the pus
nishinent which you condemn, ?" In the lan,
euage, he believed, of a high and distinguished
Officer, the aothor of an article in Jarnes's.llli.
filary Dislion4r7j, he would reply, " I again say,
-,abolish it. I will not trust myself to reason on tho
subjea." If, indeed, he were asked what he would
propose as a subStitute equally base and disgraceful, •
he should not know what to say in answer, But if
he were asked for a different principle of clitciel:nee.
ire would say, " Reward." To reward the soldier`
better, would be to improve his conduct.
,The Couto,
• try could well affiard to do. this, for it would be a
useful expence. It was lamentable -to see brave
men Watittering about the streets who had been de-
pri‘ed of their limbs in those glorious .battles of
which we boasted, and to whom, as a remuneration
for their services, the miserable pittance of 6.J.--or
gd. a day had been allotted. What man could live
on, sucleao allowance? It was true that sonic who
had served.,-long period, had Is. Is. 6 I-and in some
cases ;s-. a day. But those whose .service had been
short, but who during that service had lost an arm
or a leg, were placed on the miserable allowance
which he. had described, and, served rather as a bea-
eon than as an,encouragement to such as might other-
wise be induced to embrace the military profession._
On the contrary if for gallant service io he field, or
'for any other exetnplaty conduct, the soldier were
fully-a,nd liberally rewarded—if the hope of pro-
motion wereheld-out to him as the incitement tar
courage and pod conduct, it would be the means of
getting rid or the odium of his iseesent- treatment,—
In comparison,. indeed, with the evils of a soldier's
life, the evils of
.every other human occupation va-
nished. All was one gloomy scene, unenlightened
by any reflection from the past, or gleam of hope
from the future. Still, NV hen in the presence of the
enemy, mindful' alone of the honour of his country,
the British soldier`, at the cannon's mouth, excited
the admiration of all whabeheld Such a man
.was surely entitled to the gratitude of the Nation--
such a man was surely capable of
_being influenced
by motives of the most dignified,- and not of the
most disgraceful nature. Heshould not refer to the
usage of foreign armies—he would eunfine himself
to Great Britain to shew, that flogging was not a
necessary ingredient in military disciphee. A most
illustrious instance of this truth was to he found era
the conduct of-his Highness the Duke of Gloucester,
who hevilig contrived to inspire his Officera with
sentiments similar to Eris own, bad through the me-
dium of their vigilance, and by the opei ofet
and enlightened military polka., abolished in ids re-
giwent, for the last four -years, that dreadful and her-
rid system of punishment. In paying this tribute
of gratitude to the Illustrious Duke in question,
his gratification was increased by his having, betttß
indurined that before his Highness assumed the: OatlZ•
mand of that -regiment, it was one moiled by the
sevetity of its corporal ptinishment.—Hence a
double exempleawas afforded. It was shewn that
the men had not been mended by the former seve-.
rity, but that by the latter mildness, they had beer*
reclaimed. This regiment, aad particularly one
battalion of it which was in Portugal, had so distin-
guished itself, that on a late manic:holy occasion,
when Lord Wellington found, it expedient to order
two of the soldiers of his army to be shot, 'he gate
out in the General Orders, that it'svits not necessary
that that particular battalion of. Guards should attend
the execution, as they had uiriformly shewn by their
condua, that they did not stand in needed. any such,
example. • That his ideas on this subjed were not
fanciful—that he did not stand alone in opinion
upon it, was evident. He had already quoted the
published authority of several General Officers of
high professional reputation. He understood also.
that the Commander-in-Chief elisaperoved of the
present praaice. He had no hesitation in saying (al-
though he had no precise authority for it) that
,Lord
Moiraoonsideredtioggingas uninanly. Lord Hutchits-
was decidedly hostile to it. He had Very little doubt
,also, from all that he had heard of Lord Welling-
ton, that Lord Wellington was as anxious as any
man to raise the mural character of his suldiets by
gotting rid of this disgrace ; atiO indeed he had beets
told by officers -who had served several years its
Lord Wellington's regiment in India, Abet they
scarcely recollected an instance of any corporal pu-
nishment having been inflicted in that regimeto;
Another officer of distinguished character, Genera'
Money, had declared his opinion very explicitly oa
the subject.
begged leave to elet:ud He had been told by Gerrania-tieOefrloifliiiingeett_
Officer',
,
accusationand here
hehimselfi i
of
wards Foreigners, and• particularly towards Get-
aa
nt
they on
werettie eatc()i7l: (Intni
theynrhospital
I:tad%
herdd
ly to the mode to which
n
oanf6d
Officers
reesniiib7ijdle4taie,idi
cot
odn iu the British service.)
appeared to
them to be the last punishment necessary in the Bii-
tlitsi,dbies army,afforded
becausee
means
the possession oeststei
ng r o
ot off the West
any class
of men
,di-graceful to that artily, which
no oilier
melancholycountry enjoyed. The
flogging system had
frequently ef 'ea
apparent.
been .
men who destroyed ahem-
selves rather than undergo the punishment. No
hadus utedr:deirguoian it
de
bechnadweevier i
said
dtetriaciaat ridisiebeeaetn,
fit
ednwrbe
ie7ht‘ts:at,
oroi
rlsspn oilee. d
xecoae.sgs
voNed
ospoul
td)
ii
br
aml
wa daey
sa
dbade
wertt
man would treat any
animal in the way in which -human beings at erst
.sometimes treated. A horie might be whipped till
'he stood still. To him it seemed imperative on the
friends of the systerrl to prove that which he was
sure they could not prove, namely, that the army
l cou d not do Without it. Military torture ought
not to be equally inadmissible with civil tortuie,
Bat the strongest part of the case was, that under
oe area—. •

tile country. was liable to the infliction of this
Punishment. The father of any family might be
taken fiom his home by force, and put into a situa-
tion in which lie would be subject to a military
lloggirg. Some years ago, a tery great, and certain-
/y- a very laudable sympathy had been excited in this
country by the safferings of the African negroes.
But really he did not believe that any black slave
--teas'ever treated so ill as an,English soldier was liable
to be treated. By the law of Jamaica, the number of
lashes to be inflided on an offending slave was limit-
; et!, arid they were not -to be inflicted by the per-
son offended, but by,a• public officer. He trusted that
-the humanity of Parliament was not exhausted in
-getting rid of the African traffic; but that they
,vould abolish an abomination exceeding even that.
ein horror. He certainly was not surprised that
there were persons ready to defend this- system
'which he reprobated ; because there were always to
be found persons ready to defend any thing, He
-eould not forget -the arguments which had been
urged aglinst the abolition of the Shiva Trade i; Self.
lie could not forget that the Slave Trade had been -
'defended on the score of humanity. He had even
beard a defence of the liaqutsition; To him it ap-
peared as inadmissible to iniliit torture for military
purposes, as for the pretended salvation of souls.--
It was most imtroli is and most cruel. He should •
have hoped that on this subjed no two persons could
-disagree. It had nothing to do with ptrtr. The
oaposition 16 the system was founded on humanity;
and in that point of view, nee :eel 'not the aid of
argument ; -it was also founded on policy, and, in
that point of viev, could ba supported by irrefu-
table reasoning. If the country would but d:. jus-
tice to t- Army—if a reward was, held out for
goof conduat—it those who had served 30 or 40
yeats, instead "of
,being sent abroad to hard gar-
rison duty, were allowed to pass the rest of
their lives at home' and •at ease, there would
be little necessity for -resorting, to severe, pu-
nishments. Far different was the present fate
of the veteran. When he had exit ,us'ed the
strength of his, youth in the service of his country,
that ungrateful countr), insteae of affording the
means of comfort in his age, availed itself of his last
and feeble efforts, and sent flini to a distant and
• baleful clime, there to descend into an unwept
grave. Had the plan originated some years ago by
a late Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Windham) been
persevered in, the good 'effects would by this time
have been strikingly manifest. It ,s as a planwhich
no cousiderathee of economy ought to have Miser-
Towed. That Right Hon. Gentleman had, for the
first time -Owe/ever inoci feet ly) impressed this groat
principle on the military • service of the country,
namely, that the only-rational foundation on which
the good conduct of the soldier coutd he expelled,
*;'as to better his condition most know very
i_as'•ttle indeed, of the charatter of mankind, and of
attlglisitmen in particular, who did not know tha at
."3 much easier to lead than to drive. To none
Vas this remark more applicable, than to those en-
gaged in the military professido. it was to satisfy
his sehse of duty upon the aubjede that after the
third ie.:ailing of the Bill, it was kris intention topto-
Pose a clause, the effaat of which would be to Put an
tad to the present system of military flogging.
Mr MANNERS SUTTON declared it to be his opi-
Won that however conscientious the motives of the
Honourable Baronet,' there was no degradation from
Which the British army would recoil with more dis-
gust and impatience, than from the description which
the Honourable Baronet had been pleased to give of
their situation. What ? was
.it true that a British
soldier was snbjed only to punishment ? Was be
entitled to no reward ? Was he in a worse state
than an African slave ? He would venture to say,
that there were no assertions so untrue, so calculat-
ed to-incense the feelings of the British army, and
indeed to reduce them to real degradation, as many
of the statements of the Hon. Barr. The Honour-'
able Bart. had hazarded opinions not founded on an
itscauirys If he had investigated the fad, be would
lave found that io teeny Regiments soldiers who
Lad suffered proper corporal correction, so far from
-Laving become worthless, bad afterward concluded,
themselves in such an exemplary mannar as to be-
come non-commissioned officers, and in that new
situation to fulfil all their duties iraeprOaChably.—
This was fact, and the Honourable Baronet was nut
Justified in coming down to the House, and wain:
formed as he was, broadly slating, the punishment
Was invariably 'followed by the self-abandonment
. of the soldier on-whom it had been inflided. The
lion. Baronet had charged him with an Mien-
Lion, on a former night, of deluding, the House by
a fallacious statement with respect to the number of
corporal punishments that had recently-been inflict-
ed. If the Hon. Baronet had condescended t 6 be
present on that occasion, he would have heard-how
the subject was introduced, and in that case he
Would, perhaps, not have deferred his present pro-
position to a_ trite when it could not, with consis-
tency, be possibly received-; for certainly nothing
could be more ridiculous than to suppose, that after
the House had read, for the third tithe, a Bill which
recited corporal punishment as intimately connected
with its provisions, they would agree to tack to-it a
clause by which corporal punishment should be
wholly abolished. He would inforM the Honour-
- able Baronet, that what he had stated on the even-
ing alluded to, was that lie felt the-impossibility of
• abolishing the punishment altogether ; although he
telt in common with those, witose immediate duty
'• it was to enforce the law, the utmost wish to render
that punishment as little frequent as necessity would
allow. He had also observed, that the statements
made rela t is e to p vinis hmen ts inflided had been grossly
exaggerated, and that in the infliction of punish-
meet tor offences, it would be couch better, in his
opinion, to leave the discretion 'in the Courts Mar-
tial. With respell to what the Honourable Baronet
Lad said as to the infliction of corporal pun'shment
not being known in foreign armies, and that the high
state of discipline and valbur evinced by those armies,
evidently sheaved the pradical good resulting from
. it,- he tnuat aitsWer, that to take it out of the Mi-
heir) Code of Great Britain, would not be attended
with beneficial effects. By so doing a summary,-
and in some respects, an arbitrary mode would be
vested iii Officers, little compatible with the genu-
ine spirit of the British Constitution. What was
the present form of proceeding in Courts Martial ?
the offence must be proved on oath, and then if

gays
i, a sentence was ronounced but did not al-
)=9 aylts) happen that it was carried into excit
cut ion. The

. .
to suppose tt .at the charge *as not- clothed
with greater security under the present code, was
an attempt to' mislead its judgment. It was owing
Co that high-minded and liberal feeling which guided
the conduel of Officers, that the cOndition of the
men was so good. The Hon. Baronet talked
of the impolicy of subje&ing the men to the caprice
of their Officers. Such an insinuation was dange-
rous, for it -would have the effea, by insinuating
that the British Officer was capricious, of taking
away that affectionate attachment which generally
was found among all ranks of the Army to the Com-
manding Officers. The alguments which be ad-
vanced to shew the danger, by stating that the men
were bad in cOnsequence, was .not ; for if the
Hon. Baronet had been present •on the formor'
evening, he would most undoubtedly have been sa-
tisfied that such an imputation was dire6tly incon-
sistent with the genel-al feelings of the House. He
would have learnt from the discussion of that even-
ing, that by the introduction of the men from the
hulks, so far from their furnishing bad materials for.
the army-, they on the contrary had turned out some
of the best. Indeed the whole. of his, arguments
seemed to have no other tendency but to the con-
vi
iou that it was impossible the House should adopt
his clause. Where, iorinstance, could he have dis-
covered -the opinion of Judge • Blackstone, namely,
that corporal pianishment incapacitated a man from
sitting on a Jury. Certainly' not in his writings
for he (Mr. S.) had no' recolleat:on of :suet' an
opinion, .nor did he believe the tai was as stated.
However the Hon. Baronet had used 'it as .one of the
most weighty of his arguments in support of his pro-
position. If the douse would estimate the weight
of the other arguments by this one they would
,see
that the proposition was perfectly _ inadmissible.-1t
was inconsistent Avid) the discipline of the army to
aboli.sh the Criminal Code: The safety ottife coun-
try demanded that when it was necessary corporal
punishment should be inflicted. He did not mean
to deny lhat sonic mode of punishment might cot
be desirable,, less offensive, ',it that was no argu-
ment for taking away the present Code, and there-
fore he should dissent from themotion.

Mr. AERRCROMBIE was disposed to think that
great advantage had arisen 'from the many discns-
sions which had alre ply •aken place on the subjea.
At ihe same time it was a subjeet, of all others, on
which, in'tee discussion, great caution ought to be
used. On the one band, gi eat inconvenience might
arise, while, on the other; much prattical good
might result from the discuietione With respect to
the question, he was happy to concur, in the course
which had been adopted by his Majesty's Gtherte-
meni, not at all questioning the purity of the motives
woich had indece•l the Hon. Baronet to bring this
subject under theconsideration rte the House; wishing
however, that it might nut ageht be brought before
Parliament. He differed from the Hon. Bart. in the
mode most likely to atfeet toe object which he had
in. view, because if the country bad approached
to. a state of iriings in which it was prudent to
abolish the evil complained of, it Might be done,
and he should cheerfullyavote for the trotien. •But
the case was not so. It the condition of soldiers
Was considered, it Was indispensably necessary to re-
sort to. a 'different• mode el punishment than was
adopted in orchiary society; Hesaw no good that
could attach either to the et.vii- or military Govern-
talent by the introdualion of a toe aad spirit in the
Army such as was attempted to be introduced ; it
was holding out both to the army and the country,
that the present code was not desirable, and there-
fore ought so be dispensed w ith. He conceived that
the discretion could not be in better hands than in
those of a British Officer, qs mercy was the brightest
ornament he could possibly wear. He therefore
should objea to the motion.
Sir G. WARRENDER agreed with the Hon. teen-
tleman who spoke last, as to The delicacy of the sub-
jeet, and differed with the Honourable Baronet in all
the statements which he laid made. Some of the
statements he wished to set right, particularly with
respect to promotions. After the battle of Albuera,
my Lord Wellington (wheel the Honourable Baro-
iret was not disposed to think the most accomplished
General) direCied the Officers of the several regi-
meuts under his command to send a Ist of those
serjeauts who bad distinguished themselves, in order
that they might be promoted to the rank of Officers.
That was an answer to. the Honourable Baronet's'.
asset tion, that the private men were never ad-
vanced. He could also speak to a fatt similar
within his own knowledge, having the honour to
command a British Regiment, it had fallen to his
lot to recommend three serjeants Iron) his Reginrene
for promotion in the line. The Honourable Bart:
expressed his. regret the. Hoe, Mover should have
relied on the publications of certain Officers„ and he
also regretted that those Officers high in rank should
have made public 'their opinions on the subject ; it
would have conduced mere-to the benefit of the
service if they had stated those opinions to the Go-
vernment, or to the Commander in-Chief, for he
well knew that Illustrious Person had tell desire to
abolish corporal puttishment. As to the returns,
the Commandar.in-Chief required these returns to
be made half-yearly, under the bead of nature of
crimes and sentences. The Right I-lon. and I„ear-ned
Gent. had completely answered moat of tie Hon.
Mover's arguments. He had never under,timil :I here
wasany difference in the instruments by which punish-
ments were inflicted. The distinction between pu-
nishments in foreign service and the British service
was this, a British Officer dare not hft his hand to-
strike a soldier, on the contrary, in the French ser-
vice the men were cruelly beat by their Officers.—
The condition of the British soldier was this, that he
felt himself not degraded but much elevated above
the soldiers of every other nation in Europe in every
point of view. In illustration of this assertion, he
might refer to the character of the teth Dragoons,.
in which regiment, discipline was strictly enforced;
-and that 'regiment had distinguished listlf during
the war on Various occasions, in the most ext tuplay
manner.

Mr. C. ADAMS observed, that cori.oral punish-
ment had been inflicted in the reign of Queen Eliza-
beth, and in the war of Marlborough, and yet the
army, as might be seen in the history of Sully, in
the former reign, was distinguished for valdur and
discipline before Rouen. It Lid been siid on a
former night„ by an Hon. and Leart*d.Gentleman
(Mr. Brougham) that it was owing to the opinions
of Cobbett and another person, corporal puni3h
went was abated. He (Mr. A). believed, that i

1 i

opinions which, since he left the army, bad" beenrof
so. Much disservice to him. The Hon.. Baronet; in
the course of his arguments, had not noticed nor'
proposed any remedy for corporal punishment in
the Navy. What-had the Navy done that. they
were not to be included in the Hon. Baronet's pro
posttion ? He talked of abolishing corporal pu•
nishment in the Army. but did not propose any sub-
stitute.

General LOFTUS, after the speeches of the Right
Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and of the H6p.
Baronet (Sir George:Warrender), should not have"
been inclined- to trouble the House, as those Ho-
nourable Metubas- had given so full and satisfac-
tory an answer to all that the Honourable Baronet
had advanced ; but he could not avoid expressing
his concern thatVestlons of thiS nature should be
brought for Ward. He could_not see any good that
could arise to. the service from such agitation. ;On
the contrary, he saw the possibilityof infinite Mis-
chief. He had Always been averse to severe cor-
poral pnniShments, and had always opposed them
when be wes able.to do so without affeding the dis-
cipliee -of the army... But there were situationa in
which Officers commanding corps throughout the
army, were sometimes placed, in which it became
absolutely necessary, by some sttiking example, to
punish for The sake of example. He *OW venture
to say, that there was not one man in ten thousand
so punished; who was not thought by his corurade,s
to be deserving of it. Every man who heard him,
who knew any thing of the service, must be con-
vinced that all Courts
.Mattialwere favourable to the
_prisoner; every thing which told in his favour being
attended to. The. Honourable Baronet, no doubt,
was historian enough to know that the freest States
were those States the most stria in military disci-
pline.- An army witho.4t discipline was the greatest
enemy Which a State could have to' contend with.
He could not think that the object which the Ho-
nourable Baronet had in view was to lessen the se-
curity of the country, by relaxing the state of the
discipline of the army, but such would be the
effed; and under that impression he must oppose
the motion. 'ln respeet to there bring no rewards
for meritorious soldiers, the Honourable Baronet
(Sir G. Warrender) had given three instances of
promotions of non-commissioned officers from his
own regiment, to commissions in the line. He
(General Loftus) could state, that in his own regi-
ment he had Officers who had risen from the ranks
to commissions, for their good behaviour ; besides,
was there not provis:o6Madeby the means of Chel-
sea ? He had supported 'the liberal plan of Mr.
'Windham ; and the more he thought of it the more
he was satisfied that it benefited, the: soldier. He
corporal.punishment could be abolished, but
experience, had. shewn that it was impossible to do
so without lessening that
.diciphne which had
brought our army to that degree of vigour of which
it now boasted.

Mr. BENNETT supported the motion, obk?Eting to
Regimental Courts Martial, and to corporal punish-
ment generally, which was inflicted for trifling of-
fences---such as the soldker being too late at drill—
too late on Oracle; and being asleep on his post.—
He had the honour of belonging to the tst Regi-
ment of Foot Guards fortnerly, when the late -Doke
of Gloucester catnnianderl that regiment ; that
iliva-
trtooa person never intetfered but to do some- good
to the tegiwent. Such was the case with his Royal
Highness the Duke of York. -

Lord PALABASVoNE would not have troubled the
House, after the complete answer which the Hoe
nourable Baronea's motion had received, and seeing
that the Hotise entertained but one opinion on the-
question,. with the exception of the Hoeuurable
Baronet himself ; and that opinion was, that it Bas
necessary to comieue the present Militaty Code:—
The comparison of the Honourable Baronet in
ranking the British Army with the degraded
state of Negroes, was too invidieuir. The Bri-
tish stdier, he was convinced, wanted no other
protection but the honour and discretion of his of-
ficer—ins interest could not be placed in better,
handS, guarded as it was by the rules and regula-
tions or the service. The whole of the Hon. Ba.
toners speech, however, Was a series of contra-
diaions in argument ; alter contending that they .
were
.a deeiraned race of men, in the next breath
he was compelled to admit, that in point of mili-
tary glory, they could not be tin distinguished.
If British soldiers found themselves degraded, they
could not as stsch perform ilibSe exploits of valour
which had so eminently distinguished-- them. The
Hon. Baronet had consequently refined "lila -own.
argument.; that feeling which was common in the
soldier, was produced and icernented by seeing and
acting with his officer, by tr. recollettion that he was
secure under' his protection, more semi: than any
regulation which the zeal or ingenuity of the' Hon.
Baronet could devise. Trial by
.cOurts:mariial*. was
governed by the • stria principle of justice, and
therefore could - not be said to overthrow the ener-
gies of the men; With respect to- cot poral punish •
mint, it was not coeval with ,the present-vies:a, as had
been a•Setted, but had' existed in all tunes when the
• military service was called into action. The House,
upon 'the :mete' of the Hon. Baronet,
would not; he tru-,-ited, abolish the praCtice, unhlss
some satisfodoryprepbsitibe ..k.as brought for.werdiend
the Hon. Bart. had declared, that so far from making
any such propoSition, "'he would not trust himself
to.rea•orrupon a substitute." With respea to promo-
tions, an Hon. Baronet, and, a gallant 'General, had
'commissions.
state instances 01 -privates being- elevated to
He should state another fat:A. • After
the battle of Bil,aco, the Cornm'inder in Chief Sent
to Lot d Wellington, ten Ensigns' -comrtrissions, as
rewards lot' so many eon-commiSsioned officers who
had greatly distinguished themselves. Would any
man, atter the instances they had heard related, say
that the British army received punishment and not
reward The Hon. Baronet had talked of the men
-dragging taut a miserable existence in the Veteran
Battalions, atter 30 or 40 years service. He was
mistaken in a,seriiitg that t.ot ; the men were cer-
putly placed- in barqion, from incapacity,
either toy wounds, or other',, infirmities, and they

were not called ui:on to do foreign service. The
prest,ure of the war had, however, been so great, as
to call lotth the serince of two of those battalions
abroad, where they were stationed ; but, in point
of fatigue, garrison duty %%as not so great. As to
Cheliea Hospital, the men were well satisfied with
that, as a reward for baying ably served their coun-
try ; they wet e grateful :or it, and considered it
arl,,vll.ltb, • . ' ._ tT • .1

soldier's being founiasleep on hip post. Was the
Hon,Gentlemen aware, tlra(by Martial Law, th,3
offence was one of the greatest in the catalogue, and
was punishable with death ? Did. not the security of
the aint), depend on the .vatchfulness of the centi-
nels ?—At home, to be sure, where so much care
might not be requisite, discretion in appo!ti.,,,ihg
the punishment might be tolerated. ,Conceiving
that the military code. was necessary for the security
of the country, he shoutd put .his negative on the
motion.

Mr. W. SMITH had often expressed his opinion
on the subject. lie was''against the clause, but
thought the British army wa, obliged to the Hon.
Baronet for causing 11-1-: subjeat to be -so' frequently
discussed ; discussions .whict, in his opinion nod not
led to any harm. He did not approve of the mode
in which the subjeti had this .night been treated by
the Honk Baronet. He thought all the topics
tending to infilme should Laic been avoided. The
army was greatly itich,bted to Mr. Wind() in. The
Hpn..Gentleman did not think the .imroduction of
the cfause 'on tiL.l third reading was quite 'correct ;
the time for proposing it should have been in the
Committee. The puni,hinen time, I* was of
opinion, would be dispensed with, as was the-case
with the Slave Trade. He stated the opinions of
some military officers, one of whom thought that
corporal - punishment was better avoided, when it
could be avoided, for he found that when men got
to a certain pass, it did-no,good, and the best- way
was to get rid of the men. Another military °dicer,
Commander of a Highland regiment, was of a simi-
lar opinion. He was afraid flogging coulJ not be
dispensed with in the army at present, bat he h•-pied
the day would arrive when it might with safety be
abolished. It might, however, be well not to in-
troduce that mode of punishment into the Local

General TAIILETON approved cif, the 1311 in its
present form, and objected to the introdudion of
the clause proposed.' He. thought the system of
education introduced into the army would tend to
do away the necessity of resorting to that mode of
punishment complained of. The soldiers in our
service had great rewards to look up' to; not only
might they rise to be non-commissioned officer:,
and afterwards advanced to the rank of Ensigns, but
they might even rise from the ranks to Generals.
A General died but the other day'who had risen
from the ranks, and who had acquired a large for.
tune; and left behind him 80,0001. The private
men, instead of being in a misthble conditiono.yere
better paid, clothed, and attended to, than the sol
diers of any other country in the world.' An Hot).
Gentleman, who had anticipated three debates, in
a speech which he made on this subject, had stated
Sir 11. Wilson,, General Money, and another Gene-
ral, whose name he did not recollea', to be enemies
to the present system of punishment. He ball to
contradi& this, as far as related to General Money,
as he had a letter from him on toe subject, part of
which he then read, which was to the following
effect :

• " Crown Point, Norwich, March ii, ram
"My dear General—l have seen in the public hepers my
name mentioned as an advnate for the abolition of !Jogging ;
enclose a few lines, to spew you what my thoughts-are or}}
the subjed. It certainly woul,: be a good thing, if it cu:il.l
be veoolished ; but i agree with you, that it cannot be done ,
without great injury to the discipline of the arrl:y."
The Hole. General proCeeded to state to tie House
the case of a Serjeant who was once severely pu-
nished for the escape of a 11-1411 who had deserted to
the enemy with five hundred pounds belonging to
the corps. The innocence of the Seijeant was sub-
sequently proved, and the moment he (the Gene-
ral) was apprised of this, he made him a Setjeant of
Cavalry, and a braver soldier was never furnished by
the British army than he aterwaids proved him-
self. In one action he received.six wounds in his.
head, and, succeeded in bringing safe a particular
dispatch, with which he was charged, This ca
was sufficient to prove, that punishment did not. so
degrade-a man that he could not afterwards distill.
guish himself in the service.
• Sir S. ROMILLY spoke in favour of the clause of
the Hon. Bart. The punishment of flogging, he
contended, must have the effect of degrading men.'
The excess to whiCh it -was carried, in many in,
stances, Made it, in fad, the punishment of death
With exquisite toiture. (Cries of. No, no!) This
was denied, but he had seen a publication lately,
Which he thought entitled to credit, that contaieed
a ease of this description. It was a work published
by a society of Mlssionaries ; and the account to
which he had alluded was written by a Clergyman,
who was called to attend two -deserters in their List
moments. The one was sentenced to be shot ; the
other to receive a thousand laShes. He had pub-
lished only an account of the convulsions of the
man that was shot. The other he stated to have
received 224 lashO, when the Surgeon'said he could,
bear no more, and he was taken to the hosi.l al,
Where -he died. There was a man, for an offence
which ought only to have been visited Wilt a rn;ld
punishment, sentenced to bear four times more
han God had enabled him to endure. Who could
deny but that it. would have been mach better to'
have brought out the pool wretch Wand shot him tit
once ? • He Concluded, condemning in strong terms
the praaice of flogging, and recommending the
adoption of the clause,

_Ltd C. SOMERSET was certain that the infli,•;lion
of lashes could not have caused the death of t!.e
man, of whom the Hon. Genrleman bad spoken.
If in his punishment there had been any impro-
priety, he was sure there was a Command vi
Chief there who would report the case ; rli:d
was equally cert:iin, that there was a Cornua
in Chief here, who would not pass it lightly over.—
He strongly opposed the clause.

Mr. WILBERFORCE, when he considered what the
army was, would ..pause before he made a chang-,..e, in
its discipline. He was, however, of opinion, th►+t
tre punishment of flogging Would be better Oahe:led
by General Courts Martial only.
General Pnires observed, the sentences of G.ne-
ral Courts Martial were movft severe those of
others, and he had never heard any complaints
against Regimental Courts Martial. With resped
to tie man who had been spoken ot, he might. have
died after receiving 224 lashes, but they were not
the cause of his death. The
,Surgeon present at the
time they were infitctcd was responsible for ti:e
numbltr given.
General PORTER bore tes►iimony to the mildne;s
with which Courts Martial acted. He knew a wan
who had been puni4hed, who was now a Capta u,