The Sun.
London, England, 1823-03-05 00:00:00

PARLIAMENT,

HOUSE OF LORDS, MARcH 4.
NEW BILLS.
Mr. BROODEN and others, brought up the folloiving Bills
from the Comttions :—The Exchequer Bills Bill, the Irish
Chancellor of the ExcheTier Appointment Bill, the Annual
Duties Bill, the Transfer in Aids Bill, and the Lanarkshire
Roads Bill.—Reads first time.

The Earl of ROSE BERRY presented a petition from Louth
'against the insolvent Debtors'Act—Read and, laid on the table.
—Adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Several' Papers were presented from different public offices,
and ordered to lie on the Table.
INSOLVENT ACT.
Petitions against the Insolvent Act were presented from Pres-
ton by Mr. BLACICEIUitv, and from Sunderland by Mr. •LAMR-
TON, which were ordered to lie on the table and be printed.
Mr. RENNET presented a petition from certam Inhabi-
tants of Bethnal Green against the Vestry Bill respecting that
Pariah.. The Hon. Member said the Bill was highly objection-
able in principle ; and, he had no doubt, originated with Mr.
blerceron and lila pasty in the parish. Ordered to lie on the
table.

Mr. STUART WORTLEY fire.sented a petition from
Yorkshire against the New Turnpike Act,
Mr. WILLIAM DUNDAS presented a petition from Mer-
chants of Edinburgh against the Duty on Glass.
Sir J. MACKENZI'E presented a petition from Cromartie,
complaining of Agricultural Distress.
Mr. WYVILI. VILL presented a petition from York against the
Hawkers anti Pedlars Act.

Sir E. KNATCHRIILL presented a petition from Rent
against the Duty on Hops.
The Report on the Scotch Creditors' Bill was received and
agreed to. - _

w • • TURNPIKE ACT.
Sir THOMAS ACLAND moved for leave to bring in a
Bill to alter the New Turnpike Act, so far as it regarded the
toll demanded on carts laden with lime. His object was not
to interfere with the general provisions of the Act.
After a few words from Colonel Woot) in support of the
motion, and from Mr. Ct./TM:IS, Mr. CALCRAFT, Mr. F.
LEWIS, Sir T. LETHBRIDGE, and Mr. JONES, leave WaS
given to bring in the Bill.
The Marriage Act Amendment Bill went through a Cum.
mittee. The Bill was ordered to be read a third time to-
morrow.

Sir JOHN NEWPORT presented a petition front the Tan.
ners of Wexford against the Leather Tax.

- JESUITS.
Sir THOMAS LETHBRIDGE gave notice that he should
to-morrow present a petition from an Individual of Irelsnd,
who offered to prove that 1110 St of the evils of Ireland were to
be attributed to the Jesuits.
POOR LAWS. •.
11r. NOLAN moved for leave to bring in a . Bill to alter
and amend the Poor Laws.. Lle,liad directed much of his at.
tention to the subject since .the last Session ; and hr come-
'quence of some valuable suggestions he had received, had
filtered the Bill'he had .brought in. Therwere not, however,
alterations in principle. If the !louse would allow him to
bring in the Bill, it might stand over until every Member
should have had an opportunity of considering its provisions.
He wished 'the measure to teceive every discussion. •
Colonel WOOD said, it was understood that Rorie,
fusions he intended to propose on this subject should be (Bs,
cussed before the second reading of this 13i11. He should ob-
ject to any further coercion of the poor.
Leave was then given Co bring in the Bill.
sir Thomas ACLAND brought in the Bill, for bringing in
which he had obtained leave, to alter the New Turnpike Act. Act. Read a first time, and rdered to be printed, and .read
a second. time tin Thursday.
ALLOWANCES TO AMBASSADORS.
11Ir. LENNARD, seeing the Right lion. the Secretary for
Foreign Affairs in his place, wished to ask him whether it was
the'intention of his Majesty's Government to-propose, in the
course of the present Session, any reduction in the amount of
the Civil List ; particularly,. in that branch of it more imme.
cliately under the controul of the Right Hon. Gentleman.__
He alluded to the Allowances made to retired and other Am.
bassadors.

Mr. Secretary CANNING was not prepared to say. that
Government proposed to suggest any such reduction in the
Course of the present Session. His answer, however, was to be
understood as being given without prejudice to the general
question, to the propriety of the reduction itself. '-
Mr. LtNNAIRD mod, that if he could have collected that
Government had no intention to propose the reduction at ull,
he should certainly bring forward a motion on the subject.

ASSESSED TAXES.
Mr. HERRIES moved the second reading of' the sill for
reducing the Tax on Male Servants in Ireland. . • -
Mr. CALCRAFT was happy to 'observe the 'progress of any
measure "having the relief Di Ireland for its object ; but he
should have been happy' also to hear that Ministers proposed
the reduction of the Leather Tax and the Candle Tax, in Eng.
land. He perfectly ag:reed with the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer as to the propriety of the repeal of the Window Tax,
which he would rather see repealed than the Tax upon Riding.
Horses. The number of Horses kept for riding had con-
siderably increased since the Tax of the year 1817. He trust-
ed the whole of the Leather Tax would be taken off for Wit
were but partially repealed, and 'the machinery of the Excise
affecting the Leather Trade were allowed to remain; the Tax
would be still as prejudicial as if the whole of it remained.
If the Bill about to be pressed by the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, tor disposing of the SUrplus should be passed, he feared
lie should have no opportunity of proposing the reduction of
those '['axes, unless he brought forward separate motions on the
subject. He considered, that if the Bill in question should
pass, the hands of the Members of that House would be tied
up, and that they could not very well propose the reduction
of Taxes; after having appropriated the supplies of the
year. He had collected the opinions of many 'Gentlemen
on the question whether it still further reduction of taxa-
tion was not necessary, and he found be should have much
stronger support on his motion for reduction than lie ex-
pected. If tile "House should pass the Bill to which he had
alluded, it would be thought that they had merely taken care
of themselves, and neglected to call for measures which would
affbrd general relief. Should the Right Hon. the Chancellor
of the Exchequer press the Bill too quickly, he was deter-
mined to take the sense of the House upon it as repeatedly as
he could.
After a few words from Mr. CLTRWEW, the Bill was read a
second time.

SCOTCH DISTILLERIES.
Sir R. FERGUSSON wished to ask the Chancellor of the
Exchequer a'question of considerable importance to those en-
gaged in the Scotch Distillery trade. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man had intimated hist intention to propose a lowering of the
duty on British spirits, an idea had prevailed. in consequence
that' he reduction of the duty would be almost immediate, and
many orders for spirits had been countermanded under this
belief ; it was important that those engaged in the trade should
know the intention of Government ou tins subject. He wished
also to be informed whether the stock of spirits now on band
would receive the benefit of the reduction. He trusted that it
would, as the present was the most favourable time for the ad-
vancement of the trade.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCEIEQUER said, he had
not yet decided as to the precise time when the reduction of the
duty would commence, but, at till events, it would not be before
the 16th of October. Respecting the stocks on hand, he could
only say at present that he was disposed to, sive them the moat
favourable consideration. In Ireland spirits were allowed to
be warehoused, anti such a considtrittion would be unnecessary
so far as regarded that country. He thought he should be able
to confer a benefit on the Scotch distiller equal to that which
was now enjoyed-by the !vialt one.
USE AND WINDOW TAX.
111r.HO8HOUSE presented u petition from the Inhabitants
of St. Ann, Westminster, praying for akrepeal of the whole of
the Aisessed Taxes. He had no doubt that, if time were giVen
to the country to petition,' before the Chancellor of the Bache.
suer should pass the measure in favour of what he called the
Sinking Fund, many petitions wotild be presented to the same
effect: The petitioners spoke in strong latiguage on the subject
of national faith. They declared their belief that they were not
bound to pay More than the interest of the National Debt, and
that the exaction of anything beyond this would be breaking
faith with the national debtor. The petitioners, in particular,

prayed for a repeal of the Rouse and Window Tax ; but, at
he shonld have a more favourable opportunity than the pre-
sent for showing the propriety and necessity of their repeal, he
should forbear entering fully into that' articular question •
Mr. MAXWELL begged to call the pattention of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer to the Cottage Tax of Scotland.
wished to know whether this nlot odious and oppressive tax
would be repealed'. It rarely produced more than a fourth of
its estimated amount, which of itself was trifling; it Continually,
brought the poor in' collision with the revenue officers, and this
made the Government very unpopular. Ile trusted it would be
repealed.
_

After a few words from Lord, A. HAMILTON, which were
inaudible,
Mr. HOBIIOUSE wished to ask the Chancellor of the Ex.
chequer what day he proposed for bringing forward the Bill
relative to the Sinking Fund. It Was important that the time
should be known, as an idea prevailed that no one could con-
sistently ask for the further repeal of taxes after the passing of
this Bill, which approPriated the Surplus.
The CHANCEIJI.OR of the EXCEINUER thought the
Hon. Member misapprehended the nature ot the proceeding in
question. The repeal of taxes might very properly be moved
fur, notwithstanding the passing or Bill. Indeed the Bill
itself was rather a siniplificatiort df. the prawn law that} a
creation of any new one; and luif iihjection no the Bill went
as much to the present law. He thil not think it at all tulvisa-
ble to 'postpone the Bill. It was necessary it should pass be-
fore the sth of April, otherwise much confusion might ensue in
the different arrangements. He thought these could be no ob.
4ection to the Bill being read a second time, and sent to a Com-
mitttee, in which any alteration might be proposed. Should
any alteration be adopted by the House, though the Bill would
in his opinion be diminished in value, it would be available
as far as it went.

Mr. CA LCRAFT said there could be no doubt it,waft proper
to simplify the present, Acts of Parliament ; but he really
thought it would be inconsistent to propose the repeal of a
tax after the Surplus- Revenue had been disposed qt. As a
question of considerable importance was about to comenn. lie
trusted the Right Hon. Gentltsnan would consent to a post-
ponement of the measure.
A conversation followed between the CHANCELLoa of the
ExcHtweto, Mr. TIERNEY, Air. Gov Lnu nx _and Mr.
CaLcitAii, when Thursday was fixed foe bringing in the
Bill.

The petition was then ordered to lie on the table, and. be
printed.

IRISH TITHES.
Mr. HUME rose to bring forward his promised motion on
the subject of Irish Tithes. He was fully aware of the great
intportance of-the question—enough; he admitted, to. deter
him from engaging upon it, had he not despaired of seeing
the probability that it would be taken up by any one else.
in the course of the statements he had to make to the House,
it,..should be thought he went too much into detail, he trusted
the importance of the subject would be his apology in the opi.
Man of the House, for thus unnecessarily consuming their
time. He was aware that he might be told, and he expected
that he would be told, that he ought to have waited until Par.
'lament should have seen the nature of the plan which Mi.
Misters intended to brin forward on this very subject; but,
when he reminded the House that he had lot Session stated
his intention to bring this subject under the consideration of
the lieuse.l that he had also, on the first day of the present
Session, given a similar notice, so that Ministers had had a
niohtit to anticipate him if they thought proper, he hoped he
should not be thought precipitate by adhering to his origi-
nal resolution. lie was anxious in the outset,that -the
'lronic, arid he should understand each other in ieir
tiorr of the word " Church," or, if they could not agree in
their definition, that the House should know the sense in which
he intended to apply the word himself. People often talked
of " Church and State," and held that there could be no
Church without a State.; and ,no State without 11
Some applied the word "'Church" to the Clergy only ; while
Others applied it to all the community who were agreed in one
form of worship. It was impossible to apply the word merely
to the walls .of the building in which Divine service was per-
, formed. He was himself at a Tosi as to which of the senses he
ought to adopt in speaking of the Church; but, on going back
in his researches, he found that Si. Paul treated the whole of
Ills hearers, his community, as the Church ; and, on the autho-
rity of St. Paul, he should do the same. Ile thought he
might assume that the Proteetant Established Church had
no authority from Scripture. It was the mete creature of the
law. It owed its very existence to the Legislatures% and, as
a consequence, that Legielature alight alter or annul the whole
of the establishment. This being ascertained, it became pro-
m to eonsider why the Legislature had, at the Restoration,_
established this in, preference to any other Church.. He took
it to be indisputable, • that religious instruction was the prin.
eupal abject in View. In order to this, various duties were to
be performed; 'and certain establiatunents, certain property,
and certain allowances, were erected and appropriated to en.
courage and reward their performance. When, therefore he
proposed a Parliamentary interference with these Establish-
ments, this property and these allowances, he trusted he should
not be charged with a design to deprive people of their rights.
AU the vaxt property now enjoyed by Bishops, Deans, and the
other Minister* of the Established 'Church, had been carried
away from those of' another Church. It had been originally
set apart for, and enjoyed by theslilinisters of the Catholic
Church. The Legialature had deprived them of it, and given
it to the precursors- of its present incumbents; and how then
could it be maintained for an instant, that Parliament had
no ,controul over it? He was aware it might be said that
a large portion of thie property had been given by lay in-
dividuals • but he had examined almost all the grants of
this description to which he had access, and lie found that
the property thus given was directed to be applied to the pur-
poses of charity; and it,therefore could not be treated as the
sol4roperty of the Clergy. He expected to be told, that
this property of the Clergy was quite as sacred and as. in-
violable as any other property. The connection, however., be-
tween the two rights was ‘very slight; and wherever it ex-
isted, supported his argument in favour of Parliamentary in-
terference. The property of the Clergy was unlike that of
individuals, inasmuch as the latter was absolute ; the former
temporary. Individual property was descendable, and dis-
posable
. by deed or will, which was not the case with ecclesi-
asucal property ; the latter was given expressly for the per.
formance of specific duties, and their performance was the
condition by which the property was held. To prove this, he
had only to refer to the case of the Bishop of Cloglier, who was
deprived of his property for miscenduct, and many .other
cases, all tending to show that where the duty was no longer
performed, the pay was no longer to be allowed. It was rather
remarkable; that at the Reformation there was scarcely one be.
taeficed priest who did not perform his duty on the spot assigned
him. it was since the pure days of the Reformation that abuses
had taken place; and Clergymen instead of attending to the
`.Cure of Souls" (as it wax cello)) in their different parishes,
were to be found at Bath, Cheltenham--all over the world
in short, every where but where they ought to be. It he
shewed this to be the case with regard to most of the Irish
Clergy, it was impossible to resist the conclusion. lie was
not to be told that the property. of the Clergy was not to
be assimilated to any other species of property. Would it
be tolerated that the public servants of the Crown, the high
Officers of State. and the officers of the Army and Navy—
would it, he asked, be tolerated if they were toliold language
similar to that of the Clergy ? Their dutieti appertained
to their offices, and were Inseparable from the possession
of those offices, and the receipt of the profits to be (te-
am' others, ail clearly shewed
that
rived from them. A military officer on command received
pay only so long as he performed duty. The example to
which he had alluded,
neglect of duty and moral disability were sufficient to de.
pave a Clerodian of his office, and consequently of' his
profits. A slight reference to the feudal system would
demonstrate that the Armystr and Clergy were originallY on
the same footing' as re ed remuneration. The soldier,
like the Clergyman, was lowed a piece of ground fer'hist sup,
port, and, in return, certain services and duties were required
from each. Indeed, the services of the Clergy. were:of a nu.
ture which rendered it impossible for them ever to be dispensed
with. Then, with regard to their property, it was impossible
to contend that they had any interest beyond a temporary one;
and, that, too, conditional on the performance of their duties.
They could not pretend to any are of the rights of the suc
cessors; for they could not tell who their successors would be.
and priVete property en.
They had no interest in the property, beyond their own per.
sonalinterest. In short, in almost every point of view, the at-
tempted analogy between ecclesiastical
tirely failed. The question Was, whether this CatabriAl7loit
was too great or too small. If it was too small,in all
add to it; if too great, diminish it' If w.ahaPltlen h> takcn
place in the sentiments of Vie Attorney-General of Ireland
since list year, he should like to hear from him a vindicetion

of his doctrine, that Church property and Church matters
were sacred, and beyond the power or authority of Parliament.
He confessed he could not understand upon what such an opi-
nion could be founded. It certainly could not be upon any
of those Acts of the legislature which went to interfere with
Church property. It could not be upon the Land Tex Act,
which authorised the Bishops to sell Church land. If Pulite.
ment had ,entertained the notions of the Right Honourable
Gentleman upon this subject, it would never have passed that
Act. But to go from tlicise minor tkcts to higher piece.
dents,,had not Parliament changed the religion of the coun-
try itself ? Had it not changed that religion from Catho-
licism to Protestantism, and could. it not change the Pro.
testant religion ?—(Hear, and laughter.)—He repeated that
that House, and the other House of Parliameut, with the con-
currence of his Majesty.- (Hear, and laughter)—could change
the religion. The Right lion. Secretary might laugh, but had
he left out his Alajesty, what would he have said ? Besides
which, his Majeaty was but one branch of the Legislature.
Let the House then suppose that, instead of Protestantism
being the established religion, Quakerism was established in.
„stead.—(leaughter.)—He said, let them suppose that a House
of Quakers--(Continued laughter.)—What would be tho,cons
sequence, the Quakers not permitting Deans and Chapter, or
. any of tke various et tetere of the established Church.—whitt
become of the freeholds qf the ClergYowhen those who had
administered spiritual work to the flock were not allowed any
worldly benefit ? Be begged the Bight Honourable Gentle-
man, if he made any remarks upon dila subject, to tell them
what he would do with the land belonging to the Clergy, if that
House became a house of Quakers. He would answer, no
doubt, that it would be placed at the disposal of the State, and
no doubt it would be so. But then, what becanie of the prin.
ciple which declared that Church property could not he touch-
ed ? He did not wish to change the religion-7-that might
stand—he only wished to revise the arrangements ution which
it rested. The late Bishop Watson proposed, in order to in-
crease the incomes of the Clergy to 1001. eaph, that all bean.
cries, as they became vacant, should not be filled up. Thus,
then, it. was the opinion of the Clergy itself, that the change
he was arguing for could be effected by the Legisla-
ture. And that they could do so was shown by upwards of 25
Acts on the Statute Book, providing against the Clergy rob-
bing each other, by disposing of land the property of the
Church. He put it, then, to the good sense of the country,
whether the intentions of the founders were carried into effect
by the' present Church Establishment in Ireland ? What
was the situation of that Church ? According to the last Census
the population of Ireland was 6,800,000, one fourteenth of
which number, 490,000,50u15i constituted the total amount of
the followers
followers of the Established Church, leaving 5,900,000 Ca-
tholics. Then for the Establishment itself, there were four
Archbishops, 18 Bishops, 33 Deaneries making with inferior
Alinisters In all M 1 belonging to the Chaptersi and Bishopricks.
He believed no country in the world offered the example of
such a proportion between inhabitants and Clergy, The
House, then, he contended, was bound to consider whether the
number was not too great ; and, if so, make a proper reduc-
tion. This was the way they proceeded with the Army,
and upon the same principle they ought to decide upon
not keeping "up useless Bishops. Ile knew not if there
were Cathedrals m Ireland, but if there were, they ought
to be done away with or curtailed; for any .one who knew
any thing about the matter, would know that one Cler-
gvinan with a Curate could do all the duties of. a Cathedral.
The state of the country would not admit of their keeping up
idlers at the present moment. Public property ought not thus
to be uselessly squandered, and the Bishops end Deans should .
be told that their services could be dispensed with. lie cared
not for those who would be disposed to cavil withhis proposals;
lie made them with the best intentions towards that unforninate
country. He hoped a Committee would be granted to hint to
pronounce to the House upon his plan, which lie might be too
sanguine about. But no one, he was .sure, who turned his
attention to the subject, but would say the establishment was
open to great reductions, and he should say they did great in.
justice to those Naval, Military, and Civil Officers who had
Of late years been reduced, if they did not cut death the
overburthened institutions of the Church. As to the amount
of Church property, as regarded other property in Ireland,
he believed he could give the House an :.curate idea of its-
There were, lie believed, about fourteen millions of Irish, or
eighteen millions of English acres in the whole surtice of Ire-
land. Now he had every reason to believe he was correct in
stating the property in the handsel' the Bishops and Dean and
Chapters at two-elevenths of the whole, cultivated' and wild.--
.And here he was sorry to have to observe that the Bishops in ,
Ireland were not the best cultivators of land, for when he was
there, every piece of badly cultivated land he saw was called
Bishop's land. Thus the country lost both. Then the rental
of Ireland he had estimated at 14,800,0001. Two-elevenths of
this they might take at 2,600,0001. There were 1289 ty die
collectors, which, taken at' Isool. each, made about 700,0001.,
making a total of 3,200,0001., which the Church of Ireland
'swallowed up annually. Supposing this estimate to be right,
by one half, he asked the House whether it ought to be
tolerated. lie begged to say, that in any change pro.
posed by hint, he wished to observe what wait due to vested
interests, and in no ease to injure or interfere with individuals
now in possession. It would be less to be regretted if this
three millions were employed, as the State had directed, in
forming the Establishment, if it were eyen fairly divided
amongst the labourers in the vineyard. But when the House
saw a return relative to the Citrates, and the portion of it al,
lotted to them, they would see it was far otherwise. He be.
lieved it was a very rare occurrence for a Curate to be promoted,
whilst there were some Bishops with rtvenuesoflo,oool, 8-year.
It was impossible not thus to blame a system which placed the
interests and duties of officers in opposition to each other,
The evils of non-residence were monstrous; whilst those left
to officiate for them received a mere pittance. By a return
made in 1819, it appeared that, in a number of 1289, only 768
were resident, leaving 681 non-residents. His Majesty's Mi.
nisters had talked a great deal about relig. ion ; It would now be
seen whether, by abolishing the prejudicial practice in the
Church, they were really sincere in their wishes to promote the
interests of religion. The benefit to the morals of the Scotch
nation by a resident Clergy was well known. A century ago
Scotland was as Ireland is now. There was nothing inherent an
the Irish character to prevent Irishmen rising above their pre--
sent condition, which was worse than that of any people in.
Europe, except the Turks. They were degraded by those who
should elevatantishem. He would propotte that noue of the Clergy
should have come less than 1801. a.yeor, nor above COOT as
in Scotland. He would read what ,Adam b'raith said upon this
subject. He observed " that to ensure the proper performance
of every service, the pay ought to be exactly proportioned to it..
Time, if the Clergy were underpaid, they would be found to be,
individuals whose appearance or character were perhaps mean,
and beneath their situation. Again, if over paid, as it happened
that men of large revenue 'thought always that they ought to
live like others of the same stamp, they would be found tot. tend
their time in vanity, than whichlloolllg can be rams likely ta
draw aside a Clergyman from his high duties, and in the eyes
of common people to deetroy the becoming sanctity of
the clerical character."--(Cries of " Hear, hear, hear
—Now the inferior Clergy in Ireland were underpaid, end
the evils foretild. by Adam Smith followethr,thesame mules
appeared in the euperior and overpaid Clergy. Utility
was the great objeCt and end of his arrangement. As to the
non-residents, in the diocese of Waterford, anti 'Atmore, of
eighteen resident,, thirty-two were not-resident. The former
Bishop of Climber, as he was told, went to his diocese with.
out a shilling, and died worth three or four hundred thousand
pounds. Ile was also told, that, at present, the land attached
to that Bishoprick, diet out, would produce 160,000/. a year....
Why this was enough for 10 Gomm Princes' ; and he maintained
it. was inconsistent with professions of economy that such large
sums Of public money were thus disposed of. He wished that they
Should have a Committee to inquire into the real state of the
revenue's of the higher Clergy of Ireland. This was requisite
under every point of view. lie should propose that the Irish
Establishment be reduced to, one Archblatiop and four Bishops.
That number, with a proportionate number of subordinate offi-
cers, would be quite sufficient. Then as the Been and 'Chap-
term bad little to do, the whole of them ought to die off...e
(Laughter.)--He meant that his Majesty should be rectiosted
not. to fill up vacancies as they occurred. Then as to the no.
rnininetion, it appeared that, the Crown had the nomination of
the whole, for he could put a negative upon the nomination
of the .flishona. This, he contendtd, WAS too grcat. He
now same to. the t, part of _ the question which related to the
Titius. should abuse the indulgence of the Bohm were
he to attempt to represent adequately to thorn the abuses
of this part of the systeM. Ile proposed, therefore, that
as. the revennesi,of the Bishops, and I)epate, and Chapters
sheuldgo to forma fund at the disposal cis; Parliaments set
should there Obe a nnittiiation of tithes at fifteen,Yeats inathi
t..te
of tw,.l'iiy...fiVe, as had" been proposed ; and he contended 'met*.
wool.: Le ample funds to make a liberal conamutation.

. . ,
same might be done as regarded' thh Jaireitfinebteeietora: et.
site:tiler plan to this had been ciriind. itith,extieution fit.. amiss .•
leeopold of Tuscany; and why'shifuld tint the Same be dole •
this country ? The /Rittieetight not tolikteo to aiiy petit - •,
from these people talking about their siintesitoas tliek;
nothing to do with their suceessora What would. thh, Fr s
think of the officers or a battilliOn coming toa resolution tieto
be disbanded, because they wished to secure theix•plac'eeto
their successors ? But, then, these gentlemen said, ". *le its
you pay us in money, that will render us depodatit'e. . d .
lower our *aced character:" He (Mr. flume) smiled at ii•
assurrnce—the most subservient where their own interest sash
concerned, talking ofindeporiden ce—( Hear 1 frouttlie Minieter:ar ..
benches.)-I.'he Hon. Membera opposite. might cry "fitter. 4 •
heart" Many thing* were carried by assitiatice ; and he hla, '
no doubt they, would have enough of the assurance of etie 'flott. .
Gentleman opposite. They have had it ' bertha, and no doubt
they would have it again that night. He understood a Certain .
Archbishop had Resembled his fleck, for the purpose of peii.;
tioning karlfarnant to the effect he had always stated ; hot he
hoped They would not be listened to. Why ehouid they °hies; •
to be paid in money ? Has not that House changed the terai .
Wrist posseseions of the Crown into a money revenue ?. Ito.
sides, it would he. an injustice to.the Officers of the Amy and
Navy to decline treating the Clergy as they treated them, os
the score of tier,rdation: it wise his wish to malts good Cit 'tis-
dans of the Irish Clergy--to abolish luxury and tetrevitiamea,
and teach them to imitate the et-toned,: of the Fcutider di their
Faith. Ifs moved, therefore—
" ins
and That the property at present in the hands of the pflos
and Chapters of Ireland, is public property, and the centroul.
ar.d disposal of the Legislature, for the support of Religion,- or -
for such other purposes as Parliament may chose to apply' il.,
due attention being paid to the Interests of those at present en..
joying possession ()fit.
" 2nd.- That it is desirable that this House should cause in -
gutty to be instituted in the present state of the Estahlished .
Church in Ireland. .
3rd. That the.best i'ntere'sts of Ireland would be pronioted
by. diminishing the large Revenue's of the higher Clergy, and
raising those of the lower, and by effecting a Contmutation. of
Tythes. . .
4. 4th. That a Select Committee be appointed to consider in
what manner these objects can be best carried into effect."
Tese Resolutions having been seconded; and the first put ,
from the Chair'
t .
, . . • . .
Mr. GOULBURN rose. It was scarcely necessary for !din,
he said, to inform the House that he rose to give the motion •
of the Bon. Iliernber a decided negative.—(llear I)--It was
not the first time that similar doctrines had been broached
both by the lion. Member and others; and now, as he had them
been, and ever should be, whenever such propositioos were
inside and urged. either by the weight of eloquence,. or the
length of detail inwhich the lion.,l%leinber abounded, he woold. •
be prepared to make his bestaefutation. - If there were any dif...
faculty in the question, it wes not for the want of argument, but
from the difficulty of repreesing that indignation which-it wes
impossible not to feel.—(Cheers from both sides of the House.)i •
The attempt now made was to overthrow the foontlatiorts, of •
property, and those esteblishmentato which they were attached .
not only by habit, but from practical experience of their belie-
fit. Ile contended that every principle that was held saeree
by Parliament was involved in the preposition of the lice..
Member. Thiaapeech Of flie lion. al ember, was a direct in ei.
tation to an invasion of property, whether it were in the hands
of the Church or the laity, or of Any. lion. Member of that
House.. He was surprised that the lion. Aienaber, with pro.
*salons to ameliorate the condition and character of .the Clergy,
should have indulged in such observations as marked the letter.
end of his speech. Ile told theta that that class ought not to be
permitted to petition. This was the measure of justice lie would
deal out to them. He told them that the King had been obliged
to yield his territorial revenue for a money consideration.—
But did lie see no difierence ? Did Parliament do that with:
out the.content of the Crown, or for longer than the life of his
Majesty ?--et liar !)—Did this afford any ground for the corn. • .
pulsory change of one property for another ? The Clergy were -
united with the best institutions .of this country, which west:
stand or fall with them- They were not that dependent Vitt.:
they had been 'represented. 'they had always stood between..
the Crown and the People,' as the. barriers agolnst • encroach-. •
meat; !Sint the harbingers Of peace in every. struggle for power.,
He intreated the House to leek tit the transaction:4 which pre- '-
ceded that melancholy period which terminated with the time]. ,
of the Monarchs anti the empire of anarchy. It began• by, that .
house first attecking the property of the Chieroh, and then its - .
dignity.—(lieur I)-.-In the beginning of 1741, irresolution WaS
passed to the effecte that the revenues of the Deans and Bishops.- .
of the Church ofliatgland were too greet, nod must be curtailed.. e
The next resolution 'sot forth that all Itectoties held by ti :e '...
Clergy were illegally 'held; anti ought :A° be resumesi by .the •-
, people ; and the third declared -dine a competent mailitenatice. ..
ought to be provided for the, ',Ali:listen; of the Church. In •
these resolutions it was declared, as the lioteourable .Beatles
man wished the HOlisS now to deviate, that the property of the
Church belonged to the State—diet the alinisteni of the Church •
had no right to the Revenues or the Chereh, and that en al-
iowance which might bb considered competent to their mein- .
tenunce ought to be assigned in lieu thereof. Nut it was sax
months after those Resolutittae were paused that the consume
nation Wail arrived at, for then it WAS declared, that " the .
Arclibiehop and the rest" the cirsoltdoeution with which the • .
Clergy previously .hati been described, -wee now omitted, had
forfeited their freeholds Rod inheritance daring
.theirlivee. It •
was then resolved that a suitable remutierittion eluntiti be•
granted to the parties affected by this decision ; and in pureu. •
once of this Resolution, set vote was came to, " That the Arch-
bishop of York should be allowed one hundred pounds pet an •
nura.".—(A laugh.)—lie extracted this Resolution for the ire.. •'
formation of the House, and not for the 'mimic of-exciting
merriment, as lie considered the subject one which, in 'content-
lion with a motion like the present, was calcidet4l-to-juxtify
SeiioU3 Alarm. He directed the attention of the House to the
time when these Resolutiota were passed, in order to lead them •
to the consequences which followed. It *as at the cuto-
mencement of the civil wars that these Resolutions ,had been
adopted. From thet Inottten.t step ,by step the people were
led to treat every ,thing that was sacred with contemptse.
to despoil the Church, and finally to overthrow the t.auisti-
tution. But the Honourable Gentleman had defended his
plan by representing it to be arialogoue to that which hint
been carried into effect by Prince Leopold of Tuscany.--
On that transaction he begged to give no _opinion;,., but
he Mist take the liberty to say that he would 110 i consent .eo
abandon the principles of bonne/ mat justice on tiny plea *het
might be grounded on a simileeproeceding in o foreign country.
—From hie youth he had underitood, that if England . teases any thing distinguiahod from the other meioses of the teats
it was for her steady adherence to truth, morality, and justice;
and he would not consent to compromise this character for any
prospect of temporary or local at vantage. But the lion. Oni,-
tleeniut had spoken of this measure as being calculated to relieve
the landed interest. Viewed in this light, he thought no netitt•in
that Nouse would be willing to give those the Hon. tieralentedi
professed anxiety to befriend the boon he wife disposed to hula
out to diem. Of alt the danger% likely where] any country, lie
knew of none greater than whet might be expected front 44• pt....
ing a plan which would rob one class of subjects in order to Mi-
tigate those burthens which pressed on another He 'moot no
disrespect to the lion. Gentleman ; but he felt it his duty tows
jest the present proposition, Which, in his opinion, while it pine
teased charity, went to sanction a flagrant act of spoliation. Ii
was not the first tints that the Church had been thus assailed; not
could the Right !tom oetitlettion taoho prinrity.for the ttatiOn.
ing winch ,he had advanced. In other times similar ettempts
have been made. " Might not this ointment be sold for. X*
peon* and giveu to the poor," was the hypocritical pretext ad-
vanced by these who were no friends to benevolent*. While:
they held: this language, they cared not for the pour; but the
opposed it to the great founder of, our Religion, not . bash
the worse he pursued was necessary to his raisteneei butebee
cause they feared it would ive his Itlinistry undue splendour,'
and raise Mtn too height which they wiebtel eiot to conteersplitaih
whale of them.. It , watt impossitelo for Min to look lame:the
under which one Prelatc, had
il:1111Pnue illubnfe C4beetileffantioualbtittgrbur sliroulnlttephnraintzte° detail,
ithlittC4lo4t "tuft
amount of, the tithes for England tind.mtplairt
amassed . extmorilitudy wealth. He hoped there the lion*
would-extend to him , so much of that trahtiotec which,h4
let h
jilandi.,tihinia.eiturtioutlertstat4ea
. been extended to abet on other •ftectudovitte as not to assumit
thutte statements wore correct) which hail aspen .advaricett Ity.the
Hon. Gentleman, till (law Ar,prepiaailan tit liOg‘kier them Itack,
been ailowed, Ile and the Uott!,Pentlentkodiffercti on print**
4,41,
to too aialoctod chmein ' perty.Tha,..lletn..tierih had ii4o.:,
Outhiiii thiit. properkyliala by.. hotels wAs. ,tiOiVrotected bp*
4411104pessthi whicis...secured tit-property. held:by eat initivallaa
tatyV4ti, at (Mn,.. moburto„ wouut =not, thy: plat um tit,
co
assigned fur the maintenance of the (larch were the properl.,
of the Church. He spoke in the preaenee of thecae woo mem

tasurrettisim if he were wrong, but the Tithe property of the
Church was so identified with it, that so long as that House
.continued to perform, its duttl', they could no more divest the
leader of tithes of his 'property than they could divest any in-
tilvidual of his estate. There were individuals who held pro-
`petty by certain services, to be by them performed. These
services, omitted to be
_performed,. who had ever heard of the
wlles being despoiled of their property altogether? Yet
Oils was the course the Honourable Gentlemen was disposed
so take with respect to the Clergy. The Honourable Gen-
tleman mistook altegether the ammeter of tithes. These
-were not given merely for the benefit of the' Church, but
-tor the benefit of the people. He described some of those
who received them to defraud the country, and therefore he
po_posed to withdraw the property from them altogether.—
•• Because certain Members of the Clergy, iniparticUlar parts
of the cottony,. do not perform their duty, I,' cried this great '
aeformer of the modern school, " will Mulct the districts which
have thus been wronged of the means of maintaining Clergy.; for
aver Supposing the case of abuses to have existed in a
logical, would that be a reason for doing away that hospital ?
:the lion. Gentleman might say he did net argue fairly in corn.
paring his plan with the Resolutions of lb-It); as the Hon.
'Gentleman had proposed nut to limit the allowance of the
.Clergy to the cant then thought Sufficient for their maintenance
as he proposed to grant them an income of between one loin-
died and five hundred potinds per annum, but in principle he
',conceived the proposition to bethe saute. He (Mr. ooulbarn)
- was not bound, to the Established Church by any idle venera-
-Oat which would lead him to favour those who neglected to ful-
f.el the duties of their situation. Ile, however, telt that great
edvantages were derived from the efforts made to promote re-
ligious knowledge, and it had always being the pride of the
Church of this Country to have produced more men of learning
and of general knowledge, than had distinguished any other
Church in the world. This supplied one reason against un-
called for interference with the Clergy. Unless the canto in-
ducements as formerly, continued to be held out, the same
influx of learning and talent could not be expected. When he
(Mr. Goulburn) compared dte Church of England with that
establishment to which the Honourable Gentleman was very
fond of referring, the Church of Scotland, (of which he meant
to speak with proper respect) when he considered the distin-
guished individuals which had been furnished to the world by
each, he confessed he could see no reason for altering our pre..
sent Church establishment. The observations lie had made
were necessarily of a very general nature. The argument did
not confine itself to one country. He knew of no argument
.against diminishing or confiscating Church prOperty in this
country which would not apply to similar acts in Ireland. The
Hon. Gent. had admitted that the Irish Church was no worse
than that of England, and therefore it must be admitted that it
was entitled to the same impartial jtistice. Those who took this
view of the subject would, lie hoped, concur with him in voting
against the motion. Having differed so much from the lion.
Gent. he at length came to one point in which he could agree
with him. He Joined with him in regretting that so many of
the Irish Clergy were non-residents : lie wished more of them
to be resident in their dioceses as he thought the presence of
the Clergy more necessary in Ireland than in any other country
in the world. He wished to see them resident there, as he
-thought their presence would tend to tranquillize the people
more than any other circumstance that could be imagined. This
.had been in the contemplation of the Bishops, Archbishops, and
Lord Lieut. of Ireland, arid their influence had been used to di-
minish the number of non-residents. To make the Clergy resi-
dent on their v th out attacking the property of the Church,
was that to which he had no objection whatever. The lion.
Gentleman had spoken of the influence of family Interest; and
had supposed the Church appointments in Ireland to be made
from these corrupt motives, which so readily occurred to him on
all occasions. He knew that many of the Clergy in Ireland had
net connection with high families or with those had seats in
that House. This, however, was nothing, unless the individuals
allnded to, by their character and conduct, forfeited their
claim to the distinctions they enjoyed. There were none higher
in talents, learning, and virtue titan those who sat on the Irish
Bench. He opposed the present motion, not for the effect
which it would have on the Church, but for that which it would
have on all the interests of the country. If once a vote were
given against church property he knew not what description of
property would continue secure. Considering the Church
Establishment as calculated to promote religious knowledge
• •anti individual advantage, he hoped those who heard Into would
• concur with him to give a hearty negative to the motion.
Mr. STURAT, vindicated the appointment of the Irish
Clergy. None had been selected but the most deserving indi
viduals. The late Primate, in the course of twenty years, had
given no appointment to any relation or friend of his own, and
therefore the ch arge inferred on that subject was wholly unfounded.
Mr. HUME said, the Primate might have so disposed of the
appointments if he had pleased.—(A laugh.)
Mr. STUART, refering to some of the statements of the
Hon. Gentleman, regretted he suffered himself to be led away
by such inaccurate representations. Till the Act of 1807
passed, there was no power to compel the residence of the
flew. That Act had done much tenvartis correcting the evil,
-.sod if the Hon. Geotlemati were to go again to Ireland, he
would find there was no lack of resident Clergymen.
Mr. MAURICE FITZGERALD,. differed from the Hon.
:Gentleman who brought forward the motion ; but not on the
grounds stilled by the Right lion. Gentleman opposite. lie
begged leave to disclaim, in the first instance, any improper or
unkind feelings towards that Body who were more especially the
objects of the, motion. He was inclined to support the motion,
more with a view to promote the prosperity of the Protestant
Religion, than for the purpose of producing a saving of
money t• and, with those feelings, he did not hesitate to say
that the Church of Ireland was too richly endowed.—(
hear !)—So long' as such large incomes should be en-
joyed, so long, it was to be apprehended, would the humble
and More laborious services of the Church be neglected. That
the Church possessed man y valuable and exemplary members in
the higher ranks of the Clergy could not he denied; but these
were unfortunately not calculated to secure that (imb, or to
promote its objects in that manner, or with so much zeal as in.
dividuals with more humble expectations. He was friendly to
the motion for inquiry, because it would go to place the Church.
of Ireland upon a more secure basis than that on which it rested
sts. present. That Church had now to contend with other sectse
and in particular with an able, zealous, and learned Body in the
Catholic Clergy of Ireland. It was therefore worthy of inquiry
'whether, under those circumstances, zealous and more humble
•Clergymen of the Established Church were not daily detaching
themselves from it, and attaching themselves- to other and more
popular branches of IL Ile stated that us a circa instance notorious;
no it WAS amelancholy fact that there wereln the South of Ireland
whole districts that had been peopled by-Protestant*, and the
deseendante of Protestants, in which there was not one now to
be found ; they bad gone elsewhere to seek a more active and
srealcius Clergy.-4 ear, hear 1) —These circumstances alone
would prove the necessity for inquiry; but there were other and
stronger arguments—for it would be found !hat frequently four,
five. six, seven, nay, ten or eleven }parishes, were united under
one Rector, arid that even that hector was an absentee. If
from large tracts in the South of Ireland Protestantism had com-
pletely disappeared, was not thatfact of itself a strong.motive
- for inquiry ? Feeling that it was such, he trusted the inquiry
would be granted. Ile would rather the motion had been made
in a manner different from that in which it had' been brought
forward, .anal that it had been unaccompanied by certain re-
marks ; hilt if he could not have the subject introduced in that
:eller which he should prefer—if the measure did not originate,
•.as it ought, with his Majesty's Ministers—if not from re.
: ard for Ireland, (of which he feared they knew very little)—if
he could not have it thus brought In by them, he should hail
any motion for inquiry, nod give it his zealous support. But
when lie heard the Right lion. Gentleman apposite: say, that he
would not take up he subject, and combat the arguments
in support of the motion for inquiry--not upon their merits, but
by assertions of. purity of the Clergy and other similar argu.
menet, was he not justified in despairing that an inquiry would be
prosecuted at all ? and he felt therefore reduced to the necessity
of voting for any motion, the object of which was to procure an
inquiry into the present state of the Church anti its Establish-
meow. The Church of Ireland was in danger ...not front
any rival Church; but from the evils that had grown up'
within itself. He therefore trusted that a true and honest re-
form would be infused into the Church establishment of Ire-
land—lf .not, It would reform itself before long. lie gave
fall enedieto the assertion of the purity of those individuals who
had been selected for the Bench of Ilitibope, and would have
}sailed the caret and discrimination that had been used In making
dhe selection as an happy omen, hail it been ecconiparded by a
isposition to investigate—to IMprees upon them the necessity
for their promoting In their respective dioceses those doctrines
ata3 that ediee.ation which they had sworn to enforce. If the
eitithority of Goverrinient were nut thus exertA liti'.Aitt entitled
to•-;say that the Church would be ere long without any fol-
lowers whatever. He would do justice to his Majesty's Mi-
nisters--a new, light appeared to have broken in upon theme..
at length they bad evinced a disposition to attend, not only to
the religious character, but to the talents and abilities of tfiose
whom they recommended for promotion. - There was another
pDint which he was not inclined to mix up with those on which
he had touched ; he nses.nt the subject of tithes, a subject
which the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite seemed to Confi-
der as of a nature too 'sacred 'for investigation ; butt although
lie a'-teed with the Right'.llun. Gentleman in the propriety
and roi!evAttity for postponing observations on that subject, he
feared the intended measure of the Right Hon. Gentleman
would not he found calculated to promote air those desirable
ands which must be desired .by lino, particularly if it were
Minded en the Act of lest Sessitin. • The Right Hon. Gentle-
man concluded by paying a compliment to the Catholic Clergy,
6. .6
of IreLutil, andlutpressing intention to vote for the motion.
- Mr. PEEL saitr, that tile Right lion. Gentleman admitted,
that there was.a dispositidin upon the part of Ministers to select

those who were most qualified to discharge the . duties of the
calling. Would he not then give credit to the same Ministers
for a disposition to reform error, and to correct abuse ? In what,
way could inquiry be best promoted—in what way could alinses
be more effectually corrected than by the labours of the Govern-
ment and of those individuals who were selected to till the high
situations of the Church, not through, family influence, but
solely, with reference tertheir moral character, their attainments,
and their virtues? With respect to the question of the union. of
families, he would read a passage from the ,document referred
to by the Hon. Member for Aberdeen. The writer of that do.
cument stated, that a factious vote of the Irish House of Com-
`mons took away the agistment tithe, and reduced the vicars to
absolute want. It was found necessary to •unite severaLvicar-•
ages in order to provide a maintenance for the clergy. It was
with difficulty that that Maintenance could be provided, for in
some eases, where 8 and even 10 parties were united, they did
not bring more than 2001. a-year. The vote of the Irish House
of Commons, in 173.5, was urged on the ground that it would
tend to maintain* the Protestant Religion, and discourage the
growth of Popery;--(Hear, hear!) but the conaeqnenee had
been (Enke the other way--(llear !)--the Protestant Religion
was injured by that vote.—(Hear !)-- Ile would apply the argu-
ment to the present proposition, and he would call upon. the
House not to consent to a measure founded on principles as un-
just, and likely to prove us injurious. The question was not as
to the propriety of instituting an inquiry into abuses, the real
enemy of the Church, wishing.to injure the Establishment to the
utmost of his power, would submit a proposition to the House 1
of Commons, founded on such principles as those on which'
the present motion was founded. If the proposition were
adopted, it would affect not merely the Irish Church, but the
Established Church also, it was an attack upon both ; and what
was the situation of the Church with respect to that House ? He
should beg the house to recollect, that by Act of Parliament
(with the policy of which he did not find fault), the Clergy were
prevented from having a voice in that House, that the ancient
assemblies through which they were accustomed to deliver their
opinions (the Convocation) had fallen into disuse, and that it
therefore was but just that peculiar caution should lie used in at-
tacking the rights of men Who had not organs through which to
defend themselves. It was not however on this ground that he
resisted the motion, but because he felt it necessary to make a
stand against doctrines which tended equally to slavery and spo-
liation—(Hear !)—Was it possible that it could be maintained
by a Whig, by the Hon. Member, who: went even beyond
a Whig in potlier opinions, that even the privilege of complaint
was to be withheld from the Clergy ? Was he to tell the Clergy
that they had no 'right to express their opinion on the subjects
in which they were especially interested—(Hear, hear ! i).-If a
Bishop met the Clergy of his diocese, to express an-opinion on
the commutation of tithes (not that they would not pay the most
implicit obedience to the determination of' Parliament, but
merely to declare that they did not consider that the proposed
measure would benefit the Church), the Hon. Mover told them
that they were to be regarded as the officers of a mutinous hat;
talion, who meet the officers of a brother battalion, to protest
against the reduction of the amiy.—(Hear !)—lf any man had
maintained on that (Mr. I'.'s) side of the House that the peti.
titioners in behalf of an existing rightof property should be look-
ed upon in the same light as soldiers guilty of a breach of the
Mutiny Act, he would be justly met with general indignation.
The Hon. Gent. had asked them what was the church of Eng-
land? He had told them that there were various opinions, not as
to its constitution, but as to the very meaning of the term. If, as
the Hon. Mover had supposed, they were on the eve of voting
that Quakerism should be established by law, he did not know
what his notions might be as to the Church of England; but so
long as the Protestant Reformed Religion was the religion of
this country, he should be at no loss to say what the Church of
England was. The definition of the, Church of England was
not to be soughrin any obscure productions, but in the most
solemn acts in which Parliament had provided for the main.
tenance of the liberties of the people, they had not . thought it
unsuitable to provide for the liberties of the Church. In the
first Voltime of the Statute Book, in the first page, and the first
chapter, in the confirmation of, the liberties of the people of
England, the Barons required, " Quod Anglicans Ecelesia li.
tern sit, et habeat :pro situ Integra libertate, et sous Mesas." At
the Coronation of the King, it was not deemed unworthy of the
attention of Parliament to require from the King an oath esta-
blished at the Revolution, that he would maintain to the Protes-
tant Reformed Religicin estublhihed by law, and that he would
preserve "unto the Bishops and Clergy of this realm, and to the
churches committed to their charge, ail such rights and privileges
as by law door shall appertain unto them aunty of there ( Hear ! )
He denied therefore altogether that the Church was to be con-
sidered as a congregation of Quakers, or individuals of any
other sect ; he refused therefore m go with the Hon. Movet
even One step, because he had explained the principle on which
twi II proposed
dtonoptTm"pte elvtewnaosninavAneitnt he
taken his seat, that they should go into an inquiry to further
the wishes of the late Primate of Ireland, who had said " that
the Church of Ireland was much misunderstood ;" he had 'dis-
qualified himself from any such pretence by his first Resolu-
tion,
" That the property of the Church of Ireland at pre-1
sent in possession of the ' Bishops and Deans and Chapters in
Ireland (as if' they were intruders) was public property under
the controul and at the disposal of the Legislature for the sup-
port of religion-(Hear, hear ! from Mr. Hunie) and for such
other purposes as Parliament in its wisdom may deem bene-
ficial to the community ; due attention being had to the
rights of every person now enjoying any part of that property."
Before Parliament went into an Inquiry on the condition of the
Church, they were to affirm that the property of the Church
was applicable to any. other purposes than 'the maintenance of
religion. It was a vain and useless discussion to inquire into
the competence of Parliament, nor should he be inclined to
deny it ; but of this he . was sure, that on any , principles on
which Parliament could wisely act, they could not interfere
with the property of the Church—that they could, not touch it
Without weakening the confidence in private property. He
should not look to the origin or antiquity of the Church of
Ireland ; but when the Honourable Member talked of the sti-
pulations of the Act of Union as the reason why, he did not
abolish :Episcopacy altogether, he would ask whether the Hon.
Member could prove it consistent with the Act of Union to re-
duce them to four Bishops and one Archbishop.--(tear, hear !)
The Church of Ireland was a . part of the United Church of
England and Ireland, and in the Act of Union (the Pith Ar-
ticle lie believed) every: Bishop and Archbishop was enume-
rated, and the rotation in which they were to take their places
in Parliament settled. The Right Honourable Secretary con-
cluded by repeating, tkat after the first Resolution of the Hon.
Mover, he could not consent to go into the inquiry in which
that Resolution was to be their guide.
Mr. DENMAN was not disposed. to wait till the evils coin-
plained . of were attempted to 'be 'reformed by these who op.
posed this motion, as if he did so he feared there would be no
chance of their getting any reform at all. He saw nothing in
the Act of Union which ought to preclude them from con-
-1 sidering what principle ()ugh , to be applied to .the Govern-
' ment of the Irish Church. le heard with dismay the refer-
ence made to the Ononation,Oath.- He thought no argument
dinwn from that source could prove very conciliatory, as
that had for a long:period prevented a fair discussion of the
claims of the Catholics. It was unfortunate that the Right
Honourable Gentle Man had made amy reference to die Co-
ronation Oath. lie saw no objection to considering whe-
ther .the revenues of the Church, could not be made more
conducive to
,the pod of the Church. What had been
done in the cue of the Curacy Bill. These first principles
had been referred to in order to make a better provision for
the remuneration of the working Clergy, or those who per-
formed the duty. He knew of nothing in the speech of the
Honourable Mover that could warrant the strong observation
which had been made on it. He did not mean to defend the
whole of it, as he had not heard it all.—(A laugh.)—He
should support the motion, as unless a practicid Reform
were effected in the Church, there would be. no peace in Ire.
. land.
Mr. Secretary PEEL explained.:.-The Learned Gentleman
had considered it unfortunate that any reference had been made
by him to the Coronation Oath. Ile thought it but fair to state,
that he had never, in any debate on the Catholic Question,
urged the Coronation Oath against the concessions,demandel—
Such an argument he bad never used, nor would he ever use
one, which he was not prepared to avow and maintain.
Mr. DENMAN expressed satisfaction at the explanations of
the Right Hon. Gentleman.
Air. PLUNKETT begged to trespass on the House for a
few moments. lie did so with reluctance ; but lie felt he
should be wanting to himself, to the situation which he had
the honour to fill, and to the part which he was accustomed
to take nn that question, which had been incidentally con.
nected with the debate of this night, if he were not to offer
one or two observations on this
,ioccasion. The nature of
Church property was well knoWn to the House. It was not
for the purpose of; speaking on this subject that he had risen.
,--But ho could not allow the resolutions of the Honourable
Member to be offered to the consideration of the Howie, with-
out expressing In terms as strong as the English language
could sup Ply, 'or the rules of Parliament would allow him to
use in that House, his Sense of the folly and desperation of
the measure Which had beer* proposed, and without express.
ing the strongest reprobation which it was in his power to be.
stow.—(Hear, hear.)—The plan of time Hon. Gentleman for
governing the Church of Ireland, if proper for that country,
would be proper for England. If adopted by Parliament,
they would in effect declare that the property of the Hierarchy
was liable to be disposed of for purposes of religion, or for
any other purposes.--(Hear, hear f)--This would prepare the
way for the downfall of Hierarchy, that of the Throne must
follow, and this would of course involve die overthrow of the
Constitution.--(ilear,hear!)—lle was no advocate for the di=
vine rights or the sacred property of the Church. But he wished
property to be held sacred. The Church was, in plain len-

guage, nn integral part of our Constitation, and could not be
interfered with without, interfering with 'ale Constitution
(Hear, hear, hear!)—Hitt thefionourable Gentlemen 'had said
Parliament, had interfered with the:, revenue Of the 'Crown,
and 'had the same- right -to interfere:4'th the Church. He
admitted that it had die same right to interfere. But when
the. House interfered with the revenues of the Crown, it wits
not to eommmit aneutrage„ but to make a compact, to which
the Crown was a consenting party, which was to last but till
the expiration of the life interest of the reigning Sovereign.:-.-
But the proposition of the 'tight Hon. Gentleman attack-
ed the property of the Church for alledged irregularities, and
without limiting his measure to a life interest, demanded
that its property -should he taken away altogether. But
then an equitable adiustment was 'to be made. And what
was the equitable adjustment proposed ? Why that full
iximpensation should be made to the individuals now in the
Choral. This compensation was to be given to the indivi-
duals of whose misconduck he complained, and the property
belonging to the Church was to be taken from their success-
ors, who had never offended....,(Hear, hear, hear !)—And this
was the equitable adjustment proposed by the Honourable
Gentleman.--(I ear, hear !)—lf he deprecated taking such a
course with the pronerty of the Church in England,. he depre-
cated still more such interference with the Church in Ireland.
The property of' the Church of England was an integral part
of the Constitution. So it was in Ireland, but besides that the
bond which connected Ireland with England grew out of the
Protestant establishment. When he' had heard a speech like
that of the Hon. Gentleman's, much as he regretted the situa-
tion of the Roman Catholics, it was impoisible for him to be
silent. Anxious as he was that the claims of the Catholics
should be conceded, he would fling them to the winds if lie be-
lieved that granting of them would he injurious to the Protestant
interest. But what was the ground on which he recommended
that measure ? It was this, that he was satisfied that no act of
Legislation was so well calculated to give security to the Pro-
testant interest as that which would restore a great body of the,
people to their long lost rights.—(Hear, hear !)
Mr. MONK agreed with his lion. Friend the Member for
Aberdeen, that the Ecclesiastical Revenues were not so much
intended to benefit the Clergy as the people at large. When the
House was called upon to vote millions for the building of
churches, where was the harm of asking whether the Ecclesia-
stical Revenues, were not equal to bear the expence ? Where
was the harM of taking something from the hierarchy of the
Church to be bestowed upon the inferior Clergy ? It was with
this view that he should support the Resolutions, and not with
any desire of spoliation, because he did not think that either the
'Church of England or of Ireland were too well endowed.
Mr. GRATTAN said, that from hail fallen from the other
side, he was apprehensive that no measures were intended to
be proposed by the Government 01: this important subject. As
inquiry was necessary, he should, therefore, support the Re.
solutions, without agreeing in all the doctrines advanced by the
Hon, Member for Aberdeen. He should never support any
views or principles of sphliation ; but he was of' opinion that
the officers of the Church in Ireland, and its revenues, ought to
be regulated. By the present system, Ireland had been made
a Catholic country ; for there were not now more than four or
five hundred thousand Protestants in Ireland. Because he
thought inquiry necessary, lie should vote for the Resolutithil.
Mr. HUME then rose to reply. Ile complained of the than.
ner in which his proposition had been treated by thosewlio op-
posed it. Nothing, he had said, would warrant the language
which had been appliedto him. When such personal attacks
were made upon him it was a duty lie owed to himself, and to
those friends who supported him, to resist.--(Hear!)-His
intentions had been grossly misrepresented, and when such in.
tentions were imptited to him be denied the fact. The Right
Hon. Attorney-General might have misunderstood him, but he
could not misunderstand his Resolutions, and therefore there
never was so gross a misrepresentation.
The SPEAKER called the lion. Member to order. When
the lion. Member spoke of' a gross misrepresentation, he un-
derstood the charge to be that such misrepresentation originated
in a misunderstanding. But when the lion. Member spoke the
last sentence he deprived him of that construction.
Mr. HUME begged pardon, and (lid not at all wish to break
the rules of the Mouse. lie had only said what he thought,—
,He supposed the Right Hon: Gentleman had not seen his Re-
solutions. He complained that of late he had always been met
by perion'al attacks, and lie must really throw himself upon the
protection of the Ilouse.,( fleas, hear !) —When the Rt. Hon.
Gentleman talked of a violation of the principles of honour and
honesty, and justi e, lie would say that lie should be ashamed
to bring forward a measure of such. a cheracier, and that he
valued the principles of honesty and justice as match us the
Right lion. Gentleman himself. The Right Hon. Secretary
had said that lie was the greatest enemy of the countrye—(Cries
of " No, no !" and laughter.)
Mr. Secretary PEEL said that the words used by him were
" the Honourable :Member is himself, the greatest enemy to
enquiry."—(Cheers.)
Mr. HUAI E proceeded. Then. the Right lionourable.At-
' torney-Genend for Ireland hail put himself,into a passion, and
said, with great form, that he should apply to these.resolutions
the strongest language which the rules of the House would
admit. And then he proceededd-to say, that the measure was
an act of desperation and folly on the part of the individual
who brought it, forward.—(Bursts of laughter, and loud cries of
" No, no.")
Mr. PLUNKETT said that be had described the measure
as being one of desperation and folly, but not one word had he
Said of the individual who proposed it--(Great cheering and
laughter.)
Mr. HUME conceived that the words applied not only
to the measure, but to the agent of its Introduction to the
House.—(Repeated laughter.)—The Right Honourable Gen.
tleman said, that the support or the Catholic Question was
incorporated with his nature. He agreed with him in the
importance of that question, and thought as he did, that it
would be the greatest of all reforms for Ireland. But then he
would ask, why did the Right lion. Gentleman continue to
act with thoie who were hostile to it,—(Cheers from the Oppo-
sition.)--A man who had, such views, and united with nsen that
did every thing in their power to oppose them, was not the
friend of Ireland.--(clear, hear !)—This desperation and folly
was shared in by Bishop Watson, and he believed that he
should have many other Bishops on his side if they acted with
his candour and frankness. He contended that the Act of
1780, which took from the clergy the right of tithes upon pas.
tune land, had been rendered irrevocable by the. Act of Union
with Ireland. The Right Hon. Gentleman was not then Attor-
ney-General, but he was sufficiently prominent as a public men
to have opposed that Act. Here, then, behalf mit hts hand and
seal to an Act which robbed the Church of 311-40ths of its dues.
His Resolutions went !iproduce no such ellbcts, and he would
read,them to the House because many Members were not
aware of their contents, He hoped they-would benefit the divi-
sion, although they were not in possession of the question.—
(A laugh.)—The Right Hon. Secretary and the Right. Hon.
Gentleman had both quoted Scripture upon this occasion. It
was something about ointment—lie did not know exactly what
it was—(Loud laughter)—but he would tell theni what St. Paul
hiul said in his epistle to the Thessalonians. St. Paul there
said, " For even when we were with you, we commanded you,
that if a man will not work, so neither shall he eat."—(A
laugh.)—Now what he said was—follow St. Paul ; let not
those clergymen be paid who did not work. He hoped the
Right Honourable Gentle Man would impress this as strongly
as he did that about the ointment. The Hon. Member then
read some quotations from Paley, and other writers which lie
considered to support the principles of the Resolutions he had
submitted to the House. He expressed his intention of not
dividing the House upon the first Resolution, but upon the
second, wbich only related to inquiry, he certainly should do so,
Mr. Goutaronsa explained. .
The first Resolution was then put, and negatiVed ; and upon
the second the House divided—
For the Resolution
Against it -
Majority
WEST INDIA PIRACIES.
Mr.' MARRYAT rose to call the attention of the House
to certain letters written by the Secretary of the Admiralty,
in the month of October last, in the name of the Board, and
intended for the information of the Public. These letters,
lie said, contain statements directly at variance with fact,
as can be proved by docUmenta of unquestionable authority, as
well as by the evidence of varinuii respectable and uninterested
eye-witnesses; and therefore this is a case which calls loudly
for investigation. Hitherto, the authenticity of all communt-
rations coming from the public departments of Government
had been so unimpeachable, that when we would describe in-
formation as being true beyond All, possibility of doubt, we do
so in one word, by saying that it is official. Lamentable, in-
deed, would be the situation of the people, if their eredulity
were to he practised upon, and their confidence abused by men
in office, whose bounden duty it is to serve them, not only
with zeal, but with fidelity. Perhaps these observations apply
with more force to communications front the Admiralty than
from any other public department ; not only all the great
commercial and political interests of the country are affected
mense amount, are made upon the- faith of' the representations
by them, but contracts for insurance of property, to an im.
they contain; and great injuries is done between man and man
it' these representations be inaccurate.' It is true, that the Ad.
miralty, in giving accounts to the public, of events that take
them by the officers empfoyed in his Majesty's service ; and
reports of their proceedings, and
place on foreign stations, depend upon the information given
that if they make incorrect
describe themselves as performing duties which they have not
discharged, they are the responsi de parties. All I contend for
is, and lam satisfied that the house will agree with me in the
proposition, that if I make out my case, and prove that the
public have been deceived by false representations, the honour
of his Majesty's Government, and the satisfaction of the pub.

167

lie, both require that the subject should be limbed to the bottom,
-anti every paper that can throw light upon it be produced, in
order that the authors of this imposition, whoever they may be,
should be known, and dealt with as they deserve. For a consi-
derable number of years past, a correspondence has been carried
on between the Board of Admiralty and the Committee for ma-
naging the affairs of Lloyd's, which has Artainly been attended
with advantage, both to the public service and to the commer-
cial interests of the country. In the year 1811 agents for
Lloyd's were appointed at every pert 'throughout the globe to
which British • commerce extend's, Who transmit to the Com-
mittee, by every possible opportunity, the arrivals, and sailings,
and losses of ',easels, together with *every information that can
interest the commercial part of the community. By this means
the system of commercial intelligenie has been 'brought to the
the rays
concentratedy se
d of
ere informationlinnttocroie.
sheiagthteresetdderroetel
of
the
to the. Admiralty by
ins focus
t a
the t L 1
navalo y d ' throughout
oeAurpv(tet taw
thatoalnaloe 41
red aeol-qtdoLl lorealtadi
come ld
are
are interesting to the subscribers to Lloyd's, and thus the intar-
vveeydainzae 4
tchanesdbtyll emend no
raiv al try, 'thi ne
Co likentennltainonfe wr ,liich
change is mutually useful. In the course of this correspondence,
lfre-
quentlyesanereellceni
on the 7th of October last, a letter Was addressed to the Ad-
miralty, by the Committee for managing the surer of Lloyd's,
stating the capture of two British vessels, the Industry and the
Vittoria, by a piratical schooner, off the Islander Cuba. On
the 9th of that month, the Secretary of the Adiniralty acknow-
ledged the receipt of that letter, in one addressed to the Secxe-
tary of the Committee, containing these words :--" lam com-
manded by their Lordships to acquaint you., for the informa-
tion of the Committee for managing_ the affairs of Lloyd's, that
their Lordships had already received an account of that trans-
action from Capt. Walcott, of his Alajestv's sloop Carnation,
who had been directed by Rear-Admiral Sir Charles Rowley to
take up a station in that neighbourhood for the protection of the
trade, and who writes, under date of the 12th of August, that,
on than day, seventeen sail of the Jamaica ships had passed
safely round Cape Antonio, and that he was waiting in that
quarter to see the remaining vessels also safe. His Majesty's
sloop Dotterel was also in that neighbourhood." In another
letter, written the day following, to Mr. Alderman} Daniel, of
Bristol, in answer to one from that gentleman, inclosing a state-
ment of the ship Edward Protheroe, belonging to that port, hay-
ing been plundered by pirates °lithe island of Cuba, the Secre-
tary of the Admiralty goes into further details respecting his
fitiesty's sloop Dotterel. His words are,—" Their Lontahips
have advises front his Majesty's sloop Carnation, which, as
well as his .Majesty's sloop Dotterel, was, on the 12th of Ang.
last, in the immediate neighbourhood referred to in the above
statement; and my Lords hope, that the attention thus
drawn by his Majesty's naval commanders to this point, toge-
ther with other measures taken by their Lordships, will have
the effect of suppressing these piracies." The first averment in
these letters is, that the Carnation had been directed by Rear.
Admiral Sir Charles Rowley, to take up a station off the island
of Cuba for the protection of the trade. It appear: from the
list of vessels that sailed from Jamaica, which are regularly
published in the Gazette of that island, that the Carnation
sailed from thence on the 23d of May for Campeachy and
Vera Cruz; and that the next ship that proceeded to Cam•
peachy was the Tamar, that sailed on the 9th of July ,• too
late, by far, to carry any' dispatches to the Carnation. lf' then,
such directions were given by Admiral Rowley to Capt. Wal-
cott, they -must have been given before he sailed from Jamaica.
Now, can it be believed, that if Admiral Rowley thought it
necessary that a ship of war should take up a station off Cuba,
for the protection of trade, he would not have dispatched one
there direct ; but that he should assign that important and
pressing service to one that was proceeding on so very different
and circuitous a destination ? What would be thought of a
military commanding officer, who, if a riot broke out in Palace-
yard, instead of ordering the Guards to march (ruin their bar-
racks in Westminster straight to the spot, were to send them
round by Fulham, Wimbledon, and Vauxhall-bridge? And
this would riot have been a more round-about way of arriving at
' his object, than a vessel going from Jamaica to the coastof Cuba
by way of Campeachy and Vera Cruz. But farther, it does not
appear that Admiral Rowley thought any protection to the trade
necessary so far back as the 23d of May, when Capt. Walcott
sailed from Jamaica ; for, from that date, to theist August, he
auffered all the homeward-bound ships to WI from Jamaica
without any protection ; which it cannot be thought he would
have done, had he considered protection necessary at so much ear.
lier a period ? A still more conclusive proof, that Capt. Walcott
was nut directed by Admiral Rowley to take up a station off
Cuba for the protection of the trade isa that had he received
such directions, be would have obeyed them ; whereas, in point
of fact, he never 'lid rake up such a station for the protection of
the trade, as asserted in the letter from the Secretary of the
Admiralty;. and this is proved by a cloud of witnesses, to whose
testimony I shall now refer. Capt." Walcott sailed front. the
Havannah for .Tainaica' with a cargo of specie, early on the
morning of the 10th of August. Immediately on leaving the
harbour, lie fell in with the brig Industry, from Jamaica, bound
to St. Thomas's, havingon board the master and crew of the Vie.
thrift, from Jamaica to London ; both which vessels had been
captured three (lays before, by a pirate off Saddle-hill. Captain
Cook, of the Industry, acquainted Captain Walcott with these
circumstances ; but to avoid misrepresentation, I shall give
his narrative in his own words, as contained in the statement
he delivered to the agent for Lloyd's at St. Thomas's on
his arrival - there, which was trasmitted by the agent to
the Committee for managing the afikirs at Lloyd's. In this
narrative, after relating the capture of both vessels, the provi-
dential deliverance of their officers and crews, whom the captain
of the pirate had determined to murder, hut who was himself
murdered in 'a quarrel that took place among the pirates, And
the new captain permitting them to proceed in the Industry he
adds--" Captain Hearn and his crew remained on board'the
Industry till the 10th of August, when we fell in with his Ma-
jesty's brig Carnation, Captain Walcott, who was good enough
to take them on hoard, and-give them a passage to Jamaica,"
not a,truise off Cuba for the protection of the trade, but a pas.
sage to Jamaica. The second witness is Captain Ileum, of
the Vittoria, who, on his arrival at Liverpool, wrote to his
owner at London, and after detailing the circumstances of his
capture, and being put on board the Industry, as related by
Captain Cook, proceeds as follows :—" On the 10th of August,
in the morning, being off' the Havannab, perceived a liri.
tish man of war coming out of the harbour : made all
sail, and at half-past fi, a. in. got within hail, when it proved
to be the Carnation, Captain Walcott. lie immediately sent
his boat for Captain Cook and myself : went ou board and re.
fated the circumstances. Ile then offered me and my crew *
passage'to Jamaica." Captain llearn then states, he offered
his services and those of his crew, to go with Captain Walcott
in search of the pirate and his brig. Ile then agreed, and made
all sail, keeping well in shore ; at night he. hove to. On the
12th, made out a number of vessels, two of which he made sail
towards, and one of them proved to be the ship Blacken, Capt.
Benson, from Jamaica, bound for Liverpool, who offered him
a passage, which he accepted, Capt. 'Walcott having told him,
as he has since confirmed to the Committee at Lloyd's,
that he had exceeded his time, and • must proceed to Jamaica
with his specie; but that he should keep in shore, in the
track of the homeward bound Jamaica slops, in order to ap-
prise them of their danger, till he reached the Isle of Pines.
Captain Timm speaks very highly of the zeal of Captain Wal-
cott, but says that one of the expressions he used to him was,
that " it was as mach as his commission was worth to stay any
longer," a declaration utterly incompatible with the assertion of
the Secretary of the Admiralty, that he was directed by Rein-
Admiral Rowley to take up a station off the island of Cuba.—
The third witness is Captain Barclay, of the ship Belina,
bound from Jamaica to London, who writes from the Downs,
dated the 7th of October, as follows August the 13th,
ip
tared
off the
at C
Industry, on
sill
piratical
ateasi informationnboarded
schooner,orig dui
Too
fib'
the y his
tsl
Saddle-hill,
Majesty'snl T Vittoria
anda roi
Both aa Carnation
n4pwgt
with go
ain inc:e Carna-
tion,Hearn
the
bweaeyn t too
Jell
hiilhealispeeiclieatonthieioafrital.v'an'
am! Captain Barclay have confirmed the statements in their
letters, in personal comnianication. Captain Hearn declares,
that Captain'AValcott never gave him the smallest reason to be.
lieve that lie was directed to take up a station off the coast of
Cuba for the pietection of the trade ; but, on the contrary,
the whole time he was on board, he continutal his course for
Jamaica, only occasionally going abide out of his way to speak
to such vessels as h lse fell in with, and advised tneni not to
make the land of Cuba till they had passed by Saddle-hill.
—Captain Hearn further states, that the Carnation might have
recaptured the Vittoria (as he was in hopes she would have
done), but for the want or her launch, which she had lost at Cam-
peachy. The Vittoria was lying within the Coloradas ; she drew
mote water than the Carnation, which might have ran in before
the wind, and have taken possession of her, but could not get out
again front among those rocks and reefs, without warping; anti
having no boat large enough to carry out an anchor, was Obliged
to abandon the enteiTrise. Here, again, is a circumstantial
cause
oaru certainly
st he ewn would protection
noot ;ft
evidence, that Capt. Walcott was not directed to cruise offeuba
mao•ieleft tiiorenouctlbraduOr:edinieseliatirettarun.liaectnikidt
ial.tdrthel
tnathti
nibeeaelwi.lf.:tal:lanlioezne:nyalehwp,ar
ostibiteer.
with his ship, upon a lee shore, after the pirates; nor send a suf-
ficientpect of success; and lie could not very reasonably expect that
they would come out to him in deep water, for the very purpose
of being captured. Captain Barclay, of the Reline, state;, that
when tie Carnation boarded him, on the 12th of August, she
was actually on her way to Jamaica, working against the Gulf
il; inafdovrmiceat not ion o f
to thezn akeaeptture
la
stream ; while he and the other homeward-bound Jamaica ships
were running in the opposite direction; that site gave him and
tlniednui sitiroyalid t
ie protectionvibttourtia merely,and
he end o
of
the
Cuba till they had passed Saddle-hill. 'lle fourth witness is
1 Copt, ll,tkingvut of the Edward Protheroe, bound front Janiaica

to Bristol, who, according to the statement he nada on his
rival there,which was reported by Mr. Ald. Daniel to the Se
tary of the Admiralty, had his ship plundered and MO
shore by pirates, off Saddle-hill, on the 19th Aussust—the 1
spot on which the Industry and the Vittoria had bete capts
on the 7th. This circumstance proves to demonstration thee
established by all the former witnesses, that Capt. 'Waken
not taken up a station in that neighbourhood for the pent
of the trade ; and that he was not waiting in that quartet tls,
the remaining vessels safe, as asserted by the SesereterY
Admiralty, is his letter to the Committee for tuanaginK the
for Lloyd's. In further contradiction of these assertions
Secretary of the Admiralty, I may quote the niememll
Captain Popplewell, of the ship john
Thisbe ; and Captain Cunby, of the Feliza dated the
August, off the Ilavannah, and addressed to Sir Rohe
a his Majesty's ship Iphigenia 'We the undersisnee,
tersof the ships John, Thisbe, and Feliza, actually
,geguts!
necessary for the preservation of the property. atutrl) 2p!„
milted to our charge, to put into the Ravenna's; an"
this petition to the Captain of any of his Britannic
ships that may be in the port; praying that hemay tie
ea
protection through the Gulf of .Florida. The urdersieur
Captain Reddliese.i.
not actuated by any groundless apprehensions attelheuns,
been made on the Thisbe on the morning of the:
to
the Fetes, several times doting the same night, by
3 g!;f:;
schooner rigged vessel, that refused to give any intbraisitos
her name, or nation ; and that we only attribute DurilY re
h
safety to keeping close company with each. ather;i3O due
strong grounds to apprehend a coalition will take i
the night, as three schooners are no nw in the otn gst-
which we.discover to he the vessel that aircrely stte.R'
board us." In consequence of this metnoriat 03P teehl
immediatel directed his Majesty's ship Tl:net,tlio; es
vessels safe through the Golf ef Florida. The P' 001
Barclay, and three other ships who kept otnillanYtice, 0
for mutual safety, after lie had spoke the tarn 3 chi el
also dogged for three days by a pirate; and the Revel:lie itFiott, was boarded on the 18th of Augustl her dee
Cuba,,by two piratical schooners, wli.aplundere.
r' J:ea
cot hal
provisions, sails, boats, the mamastsrisand passeßge that
maltreated the crew. All these facts Prove,' e°t4tL'''stion
Carnation, Captain Walcott, did not take uP wait in
coast of Cuba, for the protection of the trade, s
ire
quarter to see the remaining ships safe, but dtst RD ;end too
man of war was so stationed, or did so Olt` - saa of
trade were left entirely exposed to the der
pirates. "If any doubt could possibly it
jest, that doubt would be removed, as far
is concerned, by the fact of her having
Ilai'annah at Jamaica, in about the time
passage is usually made. She sailed from
the 10-th of August, and according to the
arrived arrived there on the 4th of September; 10°
it
all nautical men, that it requires double the thm
the Ila,vannah to Jamaica that is neoessart
Jamaica to the Hammitt ; ships havitaSe In
ills trade wind and the Gulf stream against
latter having both in their favour. With
the Secretary of the Admiralty asserts in
derman Daniel, that she, as well as his
nation, was on the 12th of August last
neighbourhood referred to in the above 5+
meat of the plunder,of the Edward
" and my Lords hope, that the attention
.rilajesty's naval commanders to this point,
measures taken by their Lordships, wrlllts
pressing these pirates." It
the Dotterel
24th of July, and sailed from thence on
The Havannali is about two degrees funs.
the Dotterel sailed, her course was not tow'
opposite direction—for New York. 11,'
stream and the trade wind in her favour, she
expected to run at the rate of lo knots an lulu'
hours after she sailed. Addis this to the
H
miles distance, between the avannah
would be, on the morning of the 12th of
immediate neighbourhood referred to as
Admiralty states in his letter, but 3;io
creasing that distance with all possible
the aria .1-or,[ Gazette, of the 21st of I,
in); paragraph :—" Arrived his Britannic
tevjuiranstnbahebre)ftoionrel\peenrwifeetn:
wterthi, eons(e':cap'Ll mllbeontaltriyi ,4 out.spo knuinneotdhainygs.,!
ping, for the protection ail the trade, "
these piracies, the Dotterel sailed tool
in
ii:n.oeratddilailyesirauwvnliatit:hol•ei
much baste,, that she actually made the'
,shortly after, was sixteen days (from the sth
pressed by the Lords of the Admiralty, that-
drawn by his Majesty's naval commander teti
hog of course the commanders of the Cart
these piraciee, that neither of them
near that point at any future period.
at Jamaica on the 4th of September; ...1; on
cording to the Gazette of that islad "i- it
and returned again on the 22d, during 01%3‘ 11
utterly impossible for her to gn to the coast of
.401_,10
back again; and on the 17th of October she, ''.;0110.1...e,
Martha and Carthagena. The Dotterel, on tiswitit spat
ber, five weeks after her arrival Nee' V°l- ere
lying in Halifax }tabour just a: u'iotlfst, ifetipiriresisea'ai
tish trade to be protected, noryi;lcit:,,ol "'o'e lentil
sheentatents directlarcontratliet int"D*l-44.1t':i107
Admiralty, dated the tl f WI( ItOtiOn
9 I •VW
are further confirmed by a dectinte".le? ;re ,of his.,
thority—a letter or addrees (:aptuinit”tlitse nitierellths
ship Seringepatem, signed by the ber th
Havannah, and dated the 141), of Deceal Fibresry
following is an extract. (See Tug 5_.t1,11,: :Tie on the
pt
ter this testimony given by the men '""''
the)' relsOttoo
who were eye-witnesses ot the occurrent' .siteinrets yss
can possibly remain. of the fallacy of, thie et the
the Secretary to the Admiralty, to letter Sc'
10th of October last. The letters fain ' that tDe hati
Admiralty, to which 1. have referred, state 6060 y 403
of the Admiral commanding on the .I,°,llnt
since been called to the depredations' in ' ions fa' 'es;
he had dispatched cruisers to take up est,se pirticlAjrle
tion of the trade and the suppression ° ti- 00
subsequent letter of his, dated 23d Nevs,, ten :Oen 1:04
to the Chairman of the, West India A 7 ,titan ais
in answer to a..memoriel from them tot ',wed
plainino. of the piratical depreciations
corn% .01pod
Indian the secretary of the A thnill.atrserh'sS
Lords are glad to observe that the Assoeutt
ed the political circumstances which haste ases,hot
of force in the suppression of the mar:lf:go e,1„01;htt!
quarter." If the exercise of of force wes.ur,s?;y, girt
serted, it becomes a curious subject of in`,ll- the ill P
means our men of war were to accomplh.
these piracies. Were entreaties and supPlorie lofif
stead of great guns against these enemies mote 07001 t
—Were these sinners to be converted for°,
ways, and reclaimed from their depresul.,l,missieLatti
by preaching and praying ? If so, a Set 11%400 -ge
have been more likely to succeed in this stn,_volve,ot
his Majesty's naval commanders. Theirbly
the Secretary of the Admiralty ha" pr°llpprets 1161
new and extraordinary scheme, for diet', tiro
cies without the exercise of force, 04,11
goodness to explain to the House. any tee
of the record :. I shall abstain from Inaginliia P-osit°
vations on the conduct of the Admirtilti, ,aaissstee
strictly to the letters on which I have coultl--tatists; tej
tents of which I have, I trust; proved to n'ei.olaß"
1 ca Os.
House are inconsistent with truth, an's ;wins do
Li
upon the public. The Committee for tuanvsasoo
Lloyd's felt it their duty to gate to the. 41
different information which they had recely's,.o4o.9
might have been misled by incorrect terr'bieso°oso.
them, of the manner in which his illtsit's,tiei weed atitßti
station, were actually employed t and e.- g
Committee by laying the facts before tllc'llsstlO
portunity of calling the parties who had tifirsteeet.l,olo
account for their conduct. In doinglhis' atfeo.„,' et°
tee studiously endeavoured to avoid giVing 0311
merely sent extracts of letters, without Ilearonelf
upon them. The Committee had also tinula the' ,4102
these communications; they did cxPectie";, ilut!""tr
Admiralty could not but observe flan ti con of uc-orsil
ships stated to be employed in th'Potec, pied't Di ofd
depredations of pirates, were in fact oelle:,„4,
Cu, for the emolument Of their Coimllat7„ais IA 01
t 7 p
miral on the station ; I
au.. Lel trusteit.‘o;ottesf
more particularly remark, that the yoodo.„'
from one foreign port to wither, an rot* •
. •1; but tD
liability, carrying specie, not Britis seJ
bat a
then onth of April last,' the Committee; , was
,i,stbo
.tlioliornnkge
ralty, that prolection against piretes na`.'in the 5;4.;
of all nations, by the American cruisers "der her ;
Of Cuba ; that one of theni had, taken I:or:400
ber of vessels bound from the Havant' his alSosistt
requested that ordets might be sent !Da ; but, als
that station, to grant similar peoteettnnas oseeestev
received was, " Their Lordships eafotber r
of pre.,
ships to grant protection to the shiPs "...station cetteeyto
;
this first denial to a request far the Pres"'t, sre,aaa pt
and cargoes, in which British in° pritai". t
many of diem are insured in Greal,nootieo °.,4,40
pr
considerations of humanity alone, it :4 an vu'
benefits received, might. have ine Intoey ofteir_,..;l
Codunittee trusted that the inenhr:;sinds °
tfor
to foreign specie would occur to t" time pas
and that this trade, which for some

lid so ww,
Lo the depr'edstions ot
this $
ibly Notion on
I, as far as
lthe Carnall,
having,
try
the time in whirl
lied front the 1130
; to the J a maks 601
tr ; and it is wen kA
O 1
ble tha ti me to.bestuLt
coessari to sin bra V
inVin#, in tiltVoloo,ol
1 110111 St theril, 104 0
'ith respect to the 1106
is in los letter to 31. t.)
as his 31ajeity's 04
tat last in th igloo,
love statemnt"e llteij
Protheroeotri4o.,4
.cation OW iltagn
point, tok:ther with lit
will have the wt of l'
be W' Unveil:4lV
tterl arrivc.Nl then: al
on the I Ith of Aug
from tiatt(ile•hill,FDdl'
not wworas it, but ins!
:. Ilsvitti; both theti,
air, she might ressonsP!.
110 V
3 an hour, or .24011;
; to the two &gee, °I
sash and athile-Ilgiti
l2th of Augusts o°‘ ,11.
to as the ROW ,
3;10 miles frotn it, rdt"
sible celeritY. 1,1,wii4
;t of August, it
.w.,' p
tarinic, majesty' 14:t.
days frOin the 10 ':
thing." SO 6 treol:,,'
ade, or the supp .4
I away from ttl_ie s lei
lo the poor irk is t
, which the lithroisi
in the sth to tne
•i
unable tothe7l
unfavo -t1
rally, that ibe stqlu(os
Mandel' to diis eta° etc
the Carnati° i'4'olo4l
ave thipoitolict 00' me, i
.eut Jos sfro
led 04" ce
. $lO-4°' ilieli
1 43
'er ; • . 0000 he
and, do u t 010%
rind witidi idl 10
, Am,"