The Sun.
London, England, 1847-11-30 00:00:00

THE SUN,_ I.4ONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, NOVEMBER 30, 1847.

the people. It was not creditable for this country to
attempt to remedy the evils of Ireland by mere " stop-
gep " measures. If they had some great plan for the
profound and complete amelioration of Ireland, why not
announce it at once, and satisfy the minds of her re-
presentatives that they were considering her state, and
preparing to meet it e ith substantial measures? The
Hon Member read a letter of the late Mr. O'Connill.
The writer looked upon it as a matter of the most mo •
xnentous importance to imprint on the mind of Lord
Devon and the Government the necessity of taking im•
mediate steps to remedy the evils of the relations be-
tween landlord and tenant, and prophecied that the
people would be driven by delay to pass out of the hands
of those who kept them in submission to the laws! That
warning had been almost fulfilled. The people were
passing out of the hands of those who lived to restrain
them; the clergy were losing their hold over them, and
to the bishops and priests that was the most terrible
fear in their hearts. He implored them to prevent the
completion of the prophecy, and to win for themselves
the bright crown of statemanship in removing the cause
that had deluged Ireland in oceans of blood, and in re-
stet ing her people to peace and prosperity.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR said it was because he re-
cognised in this measure the foundation and pretence of
more cruelty than it was intended to put down that he
gave it his most determined opposition in the outset,
and after the experience of the Hon. Member for Kil-
kenny for 1e33 and 1834, he was astonished that the
Hen. Member should place any reliance on the equivocal
promises of the Gentlemen opposite. If ho re-
quired a strong reason for opposing this Bill on prin-
ciple, it had been furnished by the Right Hon. Baronet
who introduced it, because from the beginning
to the
close of his speech every sentence went to prove that,
with the present exertions of the Lord-Lieutenant, all
that could be done by law to repress clime and outrage
was doing, and was successful. What had the Right
lion. Gentleman told them in the outset? That crime
had diminished one-third. Wherever the ordinary
powers of the law were tried, the Right Honourable
Baronet had shown that in every instance com-
plete success was attained. The Right Honourable
Baronet said, let it not be told to foreign countries
that Ireland was in this disturbed state •, but
with his (Mr. O'Connor's) consent, it should not
be told to foreign countries that Ireland was to have
coercion, when her people were starving for want of
food. Though the Right Honourable Baronet might
attempt to give a mild character to this measure, was it
not attempting to create a Brehon police, who were to
have the power of searching houses for arms, and under
this colour of legality, of doing just what they pleased?
But it was agreeable to the whole system of English
rule in Ireland—it was a sop to the landlords—it was
another little bit of compensation for the repeal of the,
corn laws. He was not for a temporizing policy; and
he would tell the Government that the most insidious
and dangerous support they could receive was support
of this kind; whilst his (Mr. O'Connor's) opposition
was avowed and determined. The Noble Lord and his
Government had applied for coercion after coercion,
with the promise of propounding remedial measures;
but not one remedial measure had they ever proposed.
Plight
ssttrra
uet ti coo hii nroi
Ggf
The system of the Government from first to last had
been to create patronage, and to arrest the progress of
public opinion as far as they possibly could. What was
it that produced the tranquillity of England under the
sex‘rvi
ai
s tbneyinnctgeh
e oojrfu'
tdhdgei se
ltsar e:st..ss
t. ?
bh
ue
tllttahnewd ams
Tnd ohate d
anyn orethne
law
Oman the late Secretary for the Home Depart-
ment had attempted not only to strain the
ordinary law, but to give the whole law into the
hands of the police, and to make them the
judges of crime. What was the result ? That the law
was despised and disregarded until the Government sent
down a just judge to try the persons accused in 1842.
In consequence of the mild administration of the law,
and the mannnr in which the present Chief Baron pro-
secuted when Attorney. General, there had not been one
violation of the law so far as public peace was con-
cerned from that year to this. Let them take care,
then, how they strained the law, for the inevitable con-
sequence would be to create suspicion, jealousy, and out-
rage. It was the duty of Government to employ the
means in their hands to restore tranquillity to Ireland.
But what had been their system ? 'ro sow the seeds of
dissension amongst all parties. The landlords managed
their estates, not according to the signs of agriculture,
but according to the signs of politics. They no longer
required the political support of their tenants, and were
disinheriting them. It was one of the strongest re-
marks of the Right Honourable Baronet that Govern-
ment could do little for the landed interest. He would
tell the Right Honourable Baronet that the
Government could do nothing ...for: _the landed
interest, whilst the landed interest could do everything
fur themselves. As he was told that that they were to
wait for the missive from Ireland to see what would be
the effect on Irish fee'ilig of being once more bludgeoned,
dragooned, and coerced, he should reserve until then
the remaining portion of his remarks. If he stood
alone he would divide the House upon every single op-
portunity against this measure, and every other which
he considered injurious to the interests of the country.
Mr. HORS MAN said although he should support the
measure now proposed, because he thought it calculated
to promote tranquillity and the security of life in Ire-
land, he was not prepared to support it either on the
ground stated by his Right Hon. Friend who introduced
it, or on that to which the observations of the lion. Mem-
ber for Kilkenny applied. His Right Hon. Friend had
dwelt particularly on the present prevalence of outrage
and crime in Ireland. That was not to him (Mr. Hors-
lean) satisfectory, because crime and outrage in Ire-
land were very familiar to us, as familiar to us as Coer-
cion Bills ; and we knew that in former periods mea-
sures of coercion had failed. Neither could he support
the measure because it was a milder measure than Mi•
misters were expected to introduce, for he considered that
he was not to look at a measure, where so much was at
stake, to ask if it were mild or severe; his duty, as a
Member of Parliament, was to ask if it was a suitable
and effective measure. When the preservation of human
life was the object to be attained, he feared that a falling
off on the side of leniency might be little less pernicious
than an excess of severity. The question he asked him-
self was, was the measure founded on right principles,
or was it, as had been predicted by those who threatened
opposition to it, founded on the old mistaken principle, a
mere isolated expedient to meet a temporary emergency,
another in that series of violent makeshifts by which our
past legislation in Ireland had been disgraced? Was it
founded on that better principle which Parliament esta-
blished not long ago, that our Irish legislation should
henceforth proceed on a system, that such enactments
should be part and parcel of a great and comprehensive
policy—(Hear, hear)—links in a great chain of intelli•
gible measures, each intended to support the other, and
all having the same object—the improvement and tran-
quillity of Ireland 2—(llear.) That was a question which
on this occasion they were bound to ask, and especially
those who sat in the last Parliament. And they
were more bound to do so now than at any former
period, because now they were in different circumstances
from any which had ever existed when measures of
coercion were introduced.—(Hear, hear.) He wished
not to give offence or hurt the feelings of any one, but
he could not forget that a few nights past the Honour-
able Member for Marylebono (Sir Benjamin Hall) had
stated, in a speech with which the House generally
seemed to concur, that great blame was to be attached
to certain associations in Ireland, the whole end and
object of whose existence was to excite aversion and
hostility to this country, and to hold up the law to the
poor man as his enemy and oppressor. According to
the descriptions they had heard, the poor man was kept
for a long time on the verge of insurrection, on the
brink of crime, by the exciting language addressed to
him, until at length he plunged in. The law seized him
and made an example of hiw, but those who were re-
presented to be the poor man's instigators, those who
really were the causes of the crimes he committed—did
the provisions of the law attach to them?—(Hear, hear.)
Again, an Hon. Gentleman whom he saw opposite, and
who had addressed them in a short and impressive speech
which rivetted the attention of the House, alluded to
another subject—the priests of Ireland. He wished
again to avoid raising any angry feeling; he, as an
Englishman, took the Irish system as he heard it de-
scribed by those who were more familiar with it than
himself. He was told that a priest denounced from the
altar by name some gentleman who he said was the
poor man's enemy. The poor man took aim and shot
the person pointed out ; you hanged the criminal who
fired the shot, but the not less culpable instigator of the
assassin escaped.—(Hear, hear.) He who charged the
weapon, who directed the aim, did the provisions of this
law threaten him ?—(llear, hear.) Again, they had
heard and read, and they knew. from official statements,
that the facts were true, that wholesale ejectments went
on in Ireland. A whole village was turned out in the
road, the infant and the aged, the hale and the sick were
thrust out; their cottage was fired over their heads; they
took refuge in the nearest ditch, without a roof to shel-
ter, or a crumb to feed them. The wretched outcast,
feeling that the law gave him no protection, took the
law into his own hands, and avenged himself. The pro-
visions of this law applied to him—he would be taken,
tried, and executed. Well, the rich man, who by one
despotic command, might at any moment jeopardise the
lives of his fellow-men, did the provisions of this law
affect him? He had alluded to agitators in Ireland, but
he hoped that in doing so he should be acquitted of
wishing unnecessarily to throw a stain on any of those
gentlemen by whom agitation was practised in that
country. He had read the history of Ireland with some
attention, and he could not disguise from himself,
nor was he ashamed or afraid to avow his conviction,
that every act of justice which Ireland had obtained
from the British Legislature had been obtained by
agitation. They had heard gentlemen in that
House, and holding high official station, declare that if
they had: been Irishmen, they would not merely have
been agitators, but repeaters; and ho himself felt that if
in England ono hundredth part of the injustice done to
Ireland since the union had been committed he did not
believe the English;Government would be in exist
the present moment. These were facts whichethac('-ya all
knew, and therefore although he could not
approve of
the exaggerations which they were accustomed tohear
called forth, or of the proceedings to which those who
took the lead in Ireland lent themselves, still ho must
say,
that those men being lovers of their country, and seeing
the miseries which she had been made to endure from
the policy pursued towards her— miseries which, accord-
ing to Lord Devon's report, were borne with unexam-
pled patience, and submission—were to be excused, and
that he would not criticise their behaviour at all times;
nor ask them to restrain their language any more than
to repress their feelings. The grounds on which the
Bill had been introduced referred to the state of crime
now so prevalent. But appalling as were many of the
statements which his Right Hon. Friend submitted to
thelouse, it was not the murderers themselves that to
him formed the most horrible part of the picture; nor
the fact, though it was a most painful
one, that you
inhabitants of the district to appro •
could not get the inhabita
head the assassins; to him the most_ horrible consider-

ation was that we had allowed this system to go on ever
since we had known Ireland, and that up to this moment
we had made no progress in remedying it.—(l.lear.)
After referring to oft-repeated demands for coercion
Bills, by Sir James Graham, Lord Althorp, Sir Robert
Peel, and Mr. Goulburn, he went on to say that,
the Earl of Clare stated-----" Happy would he ba if he
could go to his bed-chamber at home without enceun-
tering an enemy, and could close his eyes without ap-
prehensions of having his throat cut before morning, and
seeing his wife and children butchered before his face ;
he should be extremely happy if he could ride or
walk abroad unguarded, for it was a curious fact
but that when he went out his Irish servant broughthim
his arms as regularly as his hat;" and he concluded his
speech by offering a villa and six acres of land to i.ny
Englishman who would go and reside there for six
months, being perfectly cealain that the terms would
never be complied wish. He (Mr. Horsman) begged to
observe that if any Hon. Gentleman would refer to that
speech, it would repay him the perusal, and would per-
hapslsurprise him to see that now, 33 years later, Ire-
land was precisely in the same state as it was then ; that
they were still deploring the same crimes, and tracing
them to the same source—not political, not religious, but
all agrarian—and listening to the member of Govern-
ment whose duty it is to bring forward the tale of horror,
as if they had heard it for the first time, and unless other
measures were to accompany the one now before the
House, they were following the pernicious example of
former Parliaments, and devoting their energies to the
eradication of symptoms, leaving the malady untouched.
He had stated thus much,' not merely in vindication
of the course he had pursued, and the rote he had
given last year, but for a better reason—viz., that he
was perfectly prepared to place all the powers asked for
in the hands of the Administration—and greater if ne-
cessary ; and if the statements of crime were to be
relied on, he thought greaterspowers were necessary; be
was ready, he repeated, with perfect confidence, to give
them those powers, provided he saw an equivalent in the
shape of remedial measures. He wished to see the re-
medial measures going hand-in-hand with the coercive
measure. He wished to show the people of England
that they (the Parliament) were in earnest on the sub-
ject of Ireland—that now was the time to put an end to
the system hitherto employed in governing Ireland—
feeding the people one year and coercing them the
next—both foolish and costly operations—the burden of
which fell on their unhappy constituents, who, as the
revenue tables showed, were called to bear it with di-
minished means ; and, as the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer would; no: doubt tell them by and bye, with in-
creased taxation. He felt that this was not a time to
trifle in regard to Ireland. For 33 years we had been at
peace with every people in Europe except the Irish;
who could tell how long the peace of Europe would con-
tinue, or when the Irish war would be brought to a ter-
mination ? He felt that they were standing on a vol-
cano. They bad hitherto, by Heaven's mercy, escaped
the judgments they deserved for the enormities that had
been committed by the Government in Ireland. Let
them not attempt to go further in that direction. Let
them retrace their steps, and, by entering upon a new
course, show that their repentance was sincere although
long delayed. He sincerely trusted that her Majesty's
Ministers, by their remedial measures, were prepared to
show that they were equal to the emergency. The
Noble Lord at the head of the Government had the other
evening sketched some of these measures. He told them
that he had an important measure in progress, one
which he (Mr. Horsman) saw with immense satisfaction
—he meant a measure for the sale of encumbered estates.
He thought this a measure—he would not say the first
in importance, but it was certainly one of the most im-
portant they could possibly introduce. The Noble Lord
had also said that he contemplated introducing a mea-
sure fir the improvement of the jury laws. He presumed
that measures for amending the franchise and the muni-
cipal corporations would follow as a matter of course.
He regretted, however, to have heard the Noble Lord
speak with so much doubt with respect to the Landlord
and Tenant Bill. He (Mr. Horsman) admitted that
there were difficulties on the subject ; but in his
opinion there were no difficulties in the government of
Ireland but what would be aggravated by delay.—
(Hear, hear.) He admitted there was danger in Ire-
land, but he believed the danger would be greatly in-
creased by half measures. He felt that the present
Government had, with respect to Ireland, an unsual load
of responsibility; first, because of the manner in which
they bad succeeded to office—pledging themselves pro-
perly and manfully, and ho was sure sincerely, to a re-
medial in opposition to a coercive policy—and next
because they had entered upon their legislation for Ire-
land with an advantage which no Government had ever
possessed before, and he doubted whether in our time
any Government would ever possess again—he meant a
perfect absence of party feeling. The government of
Ireland had been placed unreservedly in their hands.
Upon that point there was a complete unanimity both in
and out of doors. Parliament had given them absolute
power. The courage and capacity to turn that power
to the best account Parliament could not give them, but
these were qualities which neither time nor Parliament
would suffer to be dispensed with.—(Cheers.)
Mr. W. FAGAN felt that these crimes called to
Heaven for vengeance, and would sooner or later call
down on the perpetrators a just retribution. He ad-
mitted that they paralysed the efforts of the best
friends of the country, and made them turn with disgust
from the political arena; and he would say, honestly and
fearlessly, that if he thought a Coercion Bill, or Curfew
Bill, or an Arms Bill would prevent the perpetration of
a single crime of that nature, he would be satisfied, as
an Irishman, to live for the rest of his life without the
pale of the constitution in order to effect that object; but
he had a strong conviction that the proposed measure
would have an opposite effect to that anticipated by the
Government—that instead of going to Ireland as a mes-
senger of peace, it would have the effect of increasing
the discontent, and consequently crime. Remedial
measures would alone cure the evils of Ireland, and he
understood that last year a kind of pledge had been
given by the gentlemen who now had the Government
to their hands, that this was the policy which they
would adopt.—(Hear, hear.) The House had been told
this evening that therre had been nineteen murders
committed in one month in Ireland. At the very period
when the late Ministry brought forward their Bill
there had been fifty murders in one month, and that
had been one of the grounds put forward by the Right
Hon. Baronet in support of his Bill. If the present
Government thought, upon that occasion, that a
Coercion Bill was not necessary when fifty murders
were committed in a month, where was the necessity for
one now, when only nineteen were committed? He
(Mr. Fagan) was convinced that the ordinary laws were
sufficient. It had been said, and said truly, by the
Right Hon. Baronet (Sir G. Grey), that the peasantry
and farmers armed themselves because the law allowed
them to do so; it was for self-protection. He knew it
was for self-protection, and he asked if the possession
of arms by the farmers in the five counties could be the
cause of these crimes if, instead of fifty murders a
month, there were only nineteen? He asked whether.
if this was the case when the possession of arms was
permitted, the House could think that the possession of
arms was the cause of these crimes? No; the cause
lay deeper than the Government were disposed to
look at. Let them not imagine that a Coercion Bill, an
Arms Bill, or a measure of this kind, would be an effec-
tual remedy, or prevent the commission of these crimes.
The remedy lay deeper; the remedy had been pointed
out the other night by the Hon. Member for Rochdale
(Mr. S. Crawford.) In Mayo the people had been dying
500 at a time, and had there been a single murmur of
discontent? Go to Clare, where the starving people
explored the rocks for sea-weed to support existence,
and where the whole rental of the place was not suffi-
aient to support the thousands of paupers. And what
had been the conduct of the population towards
the shipwrecked passengers of the Stephen
Whitney? The starving people gave the little
food they had to sustain persons who, for the moment,
were in a worse situation than themselves. The question
was, why is it that, in three or five counties, those crimes
were annually committed? Let the House look back for
centuries, and they would find this singular fact, that al-
most for centuries there had been a struggle going on in
particular localities; and the question was, why in these
particular localities these crimes should exist? There
was an unceasing, au almost permanent struggle between
the proprietors of the soil and the occupiers of the soil.
It appeared from the evidence taken by Lord Devon's
commission, that eight acres of land were considered
sufficient for a family of five persons, and that there
were a great number of farms in Ireland not exceeding
eight acres each. It bad been recommended that the
small farms should be consolidated, and the consequence
would be that 15,000 families, of five persons in each,
or 75,000 persons, would have to be ejected in order to
consolidate the farms, as suggested. A consolidation had
been going on in Tipperary, and that was quite sufficient
to account for the crimes committed there. The Go-
vernment should come forward to prevent this, instead
of suggesting a coercion Act,which, so far from:preventing
crime would have an opposite effect. Two great causes
existed in Ireland to account for this state of things;
namely, the undue competition for land, and the en-
cumbered condition of the proprietors of land. The
rental of Ireland had been said to be 14,000,0001., and
by some even 20,000,000/.; but it was, in fact. only
12,000,000 L a year, and from this must be abstracted
4,000,000/. for mortgages, leaving only 8,000,0001., out
of which the landlords of Ireland had to meet and grap-
ple with the difficulties which beset them, and he, there-
fore, would advocate a measure which would enable
them to get rid of their burthens. The other cause, the
undue competition for land, could be met in no other
way than by a system of public valuation. The Bill
which had been prepared by the Hon. Member for
Rochdale would be a means of tranquillizing Ireland
and introducing something like peace there. Perhaps
ho might be told that ho ought to have confidence in the
administration of the Noble Lord, seeing that the Chief
Secretary for Ireland had told them that a Bill in favour
of tenant right would be introduced for Ireland. But
even if he had such confidence, ho would say the Noble
Lord was bound to introduce that Bill prior to any mea-
sure of coercion. The House ought, as its first step, to
conciliate the people of Irieland. He admitted that the
House deserved the gratitude of the Irish people for
what it did lastyear ; the people of England also deserved
the gratitude of the Irish people for their extraor-
dinary exertions in subscribing a sum of not less than
700,000!.; and he had fondly hoped that the days of co-
ercion were over; that after these signal acts of kindness
n o further
st
measures
House.o of coercion
The
n would
Secretaryld have
been
expected
intro-
ducedmuch good from the NeW Poor-law; but ho
would inform him that the New Poor-law
would disappoint his expectations. Did he think that
the quarter-acre clause in the New Poor-law Act
would tranquillize the people of Ireland? If so, he
would find himself mistaken.—(Hear.) A free-trade
measure had been passed, the consequence of which was
that the system of cultivation in Ireland must be changed
before any benefits could be derived by the farmer; but
no such change would be effected unless the tenant
110 W
obtained a deeper interest is the soil than ho
pos-

sessed. A good deal had been said in the previous de-
bate about expressions used by the Catholic clergy.
Those clergy, he believed in his conscience, to be the
link that bound this country to Ireland. By their in-
structions they kept the people of Ireland tranquil and
submissive to the law, and he did not think it became
any Member of the British Legislature to bring charges
against those men. Reference had been made to lan-
guage used by a venerable Archdeacon (Laffan). He
believed, however, that that ♦enerable individual only
wished to draw a distinction between the sturdy charac-
ter of the English people and the more excitable people
of Ireland, and that it was n• intention of his to incite
to the commission of crime. He was incapable of such
a thing. He was a religious man, teaching the highest
morality to the people; and no man that knew him
would for a moment attribute to him any intention of
the kind imputed to him.—(Hear, hear.) In conclusion,
the Hon. Gentleman said he should consider it his duty
to divide with the Hon. Member for Nottingham (Mr.
O'Connor), but he had felt that he could not do so with-
out stating to the House his reasons.

Lord JOCELYN expressed his regret that the mea-
sure was not of a more stringent and efficacious nature
than it appeared to him to be. lie much feared that the
measure which her Majesty's Government had laid upon
the table of the House would not be found sufficient to
enable them to cope with the state of society now exist-
ing in Ireland, or to put down that monstrous crime and
that system of assassination that had disgraced the cha-
racter of Ireland in the eyes of all civilized nations.—
(flear.) lie was sure that there was no body of men
rmbued with the common feelings of humanity who
would really have opposed any requisition which the
Government might have made to enable them to crush
the cruel and dastard conspiracy which had been so long
in operation ; a conspiracy working silently but effec-
tually for the destruction of a class in Ireland, who,
were their faults even as hideous as they had been fre-
quently pourtrayed in that House (which, as a general
fact he denied), had yet a right to the protection for life
and property which every well ordered state was bound
to provide for its citizens. Ile held it to be an implied
compact between the State and the citizen that this
security shonld be made sure. The State was bound
to the citizen, and the citizen to the State. This was
the groundwork, the foundation of all government ;
it was for this purpose, mainly, they admitted the con-
trol, the interference of the law in their daily actions.
If the State failed in this compact, see the position in
which the member of the State was placed. The law
rendered each citizen powerless to increase its own
power, but if the law was itself powerless their he was
in a worse position then when no law existed. The law
as it existed in this country was the terror of the evil-
doer, and regarded with affection by the well-conducted.
The law had bad on its side individual exertion to carry
into effect its ends. It had had the feeling of the great
mass of the people, which accompanied it. Here, then,
it might be strong enough to meet any emergency. But
how different was the picture in Ireland ? There they
found in certain districts the law neither regarded with
reverence by the well-disposed, nor with fear by the
wicked. It was neither a protector nor an avenger—
paralysed, powerless—giving no encouragement to in-
dividual exertion. In certain districts another law was
in force ; a most mysterious and bloody one, carrying
out its dictates with certainty, and revenging with blood
the trangression of its edicts,—(Hear, bear.) But
although such had been the result of the struggle, al-
though the law as it existed might be momentarily
defeated, it was in the power of the Gouernment
of this country to cope successfully with its anta-
gonist ; a vigorous determination and a bold front,
and the ultimate supremacy was certain.—(llear.)
The Government had a reserve at their command ; on
them must rest the responsibility whether the power
they demand is sufficient for the purpose • they are
responsible for the lives of the people of Ireland. If
they asked not for sufficient powers on them would rest
the responsibility for the future ; if such powers were
asked for and refused by the House, then on them be
the responsibility. In seeking a remedy they would not
fail to investigate the causes of the disease, and there
were circumstances connected with these agrarian con-
spiracies well worthy of consideration. To want and po-
verty, too often the parent of crime,these agrarian outrages
could not be attributed. Such was the opinion of Chief
Justice Bushe in 1832. Crime was not greatest in the
localities where the sufferings were most intense. They
found amongst the most striking features this law of
agrarian outrage passively admitted. The districts in
which these atrocities took place evince no horror of
the deed, and no effort for the apprehension of the
murderer ; ready emissaries were found to carry into
effect its behests ; in the broad day, on the
public road, within a few yards of the police
barrack, without fear, shame, or remorse, the
doomster carried his bloody orders into effect ; he com-
mitted the murder and walked quietly away. Although
men with arms in their hands were sitting within hear-
ing of the cries of the victim they remained unmoved.
This showed a state of moral depravity, indifference, or
cowardly fear, in which the very character of human
nature itself seemed changed, and every man must seek
for a solution of such a state. These were not singular
features in these atrocities —ex uno disce omner ;
but it was impossible to believe that even in these dis-
tricts the milk of human nature had entirely ceased to
flow; it was the inefficacy of the law, as it existed, to
meet the difficulty. And who were the victims? Were
they composed alone of the bigot, the harsh, tyrannical
landlords—men, who had justly earned for themselves
an unfavourable notoriety? Were they men of penu-
rious habits, careless of the well-being of those about
them? No; the kind, the gentle, the liberal and open-
handed, alike fell victims under this reign of terror. It
might be said the sins of the father were visited upon
the children. Heavy indeed was the chastisement they,
now bore. Parliament had a right to compel the land-
lords of Ireland to the performance of their duties. But
whilst these duties were rendered imperative let not the
Government be unmindful of its first obligation; the
landlord had a right to demand from them that his life
and property should be secure. The Government had
on their side men who knew Ireland well. Did they
believe that a paltry Arms Act would be sufficient
to meet this frightful system? Did the Right Hon.
Member for Dungarvan (Mr. Sheil) believe that such
a measure as this would meet the difficulty? Did he
believe that the murderer would find no other and as sure
a weapon to carry out his design ? Did he believe that
the evidence for prosecution would' be more easily in-
duced to come forward ? Did he believe that conviction
would be more readily obtained by a jury ? Publishing
proclamations and writing letters from the Castle, how-
ever able the documents might be, were not sufficient.
Active and vigorous steps could alone meet the evil. He
admitted the energy of the Noble Lord at the head of
the Government in Ireland. But they acted unfairly to
one who understood the position of that country, in not
enabling him to carry out his view. He approved of that
part of the measure by which a locality would have a
pecuniary interest in bringing criminals to justice ; but
let the power be given of making domiciliary visits not
only by day but by night.
Sir G. GREY—For what purpose?
Lord JOCELYN—Let a right be given to search for
arms. But, above all, let an inducement be given to
men to come forward in support of the law. If by tenant
right was meant the claim of an outgoing tenant to re-
muneration for capital invested in the permanent im-
provement of the land its justice must be acknowledged,
and the moral obligation of the landlord God forbid that
any one should deny. But could any one really believe
that the legal acknowledgment of such a claim would be
sufficient to satisfy a secret council whose laws were written
in blood, and if tenant right meant what misguided
men had been taught too often to believe—if it meant to
give the tenant a vested interest, not in the capital which
he had laid out on the land, but in the soil, such a pro-
position was no other than open and avowed robbery.
It was a proposition which required no argument to re-
fute it, because directly opposed to the rights of property,
which were held so dear and so jealously guarded by
every member of that and every well ordered state.
Should the time come when that right might be regarded
with less respect, he did not believe the authors of the
change would be more prosperous, more happy, or more
secure. Every commission which had been appointed,
every individual who bad turned his attention to Ireland,
had wound up his opinion by stating that until life and
property were made secure, no means could be successful
to advance the state or to improve the condition of Ire-
land. Should the measures which the Government
proposed be adequate, should it be their lot to give
security to life and property in Ireland, they would have
thrown a bridge over an abyss which had hitherto kept
Ireland back in the scale of civilization and improvement
—they would have thrown the first plank upon which
might pass with security, and upon which would pass,
he had no doubt, with rapidity and energy, capital and
enterprise, diffusing life and vigour through that hitherto
paralysed country,.
Mr. R. M. FOX (as we understood) thought that
unless such a tenant right as would permit the sale
of the whole tenancy to the tenant were admitted,
Parliament would not at all succeed in doing away
with the cause of agrarian disturbance. It was to the
unsettled state of the law of landlord and tenant that
the crimes which disgraced Ireland were mainly owing.
Lord BERNARD believed that he would be wanting
in duty if he did not urge upon her Majesty's Go-
vernment to press forward this measure, and for him
i
self he should have preferred a far stronger measure o
coercion.—(lronical cries of " Hear" from the Irish
Members.) Members.) It was better to outrage the Constitutionrc
at the present moment., if they could theer:rbyhgelarre) Hep peace,
prosperity, and security to Iroland.--(1i
had received from a gentleman residing in the county
of Cork a copy of a threatening notice addressed to
and received by him, in which he was told to take
timely notice that " heand.
m his
made an example to theagabond (meaning the
gentleman's agent) would be
whole country if they did not mind and behave better
to their tenants." That threatening notice was ad-
dressed to ono of the best landlords in the country,--
(Hear, hear.) lie was able to bear his personal testi-
mony to the manner in which the peasantry of the
most distressed districts of the country had borne their
sufferings.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. P. SCROPE said ho believed the time had now
come when the general opinion was that the
"of Ireland was also the question of the conditiononfdEitni7
Eng-
land, for the condition of Ireland now came back upon
us, in the shape of heavy mulcts upon the capital of the
country. We could not allow Ireland to remain in the
state in which she had been for the last twenty or thirty
years without England being dragged down to the same
miserable and distressed condition by the invasion of
Irish poverty and the example of Irish crime. He had
opposed former coercion Bills for Ireland, on every oc-
casion, on the ground that Parliament was not justified
in passing any law of increased severity for the punish-
ment of Irish crime unless they at the same time took
into consideration the causes of those crimes—(Hear)—
security to the occupying tenant against harsh eject-
MentS—(Hear)—security to the honest and industrious
tenant that he would enjoy the fruits of his industry, and
removing the fear of that destitution which was the pre-
vailing source of crime in Ireland.—(Bear, bear.) lie

k

did not oppose the measure now brought before the :,\
House, because he thought with many Hon. Members'_''_
that it was a measure of a much milder character than
he had anticipated. Still, he feared that the measure
would be totally ineffectual and worthless. Its object
was to give security to person and property. If he
thought it would give increased security either to life or
property ho would support it. There was only one way
of giving security to the life of the rich, and that was by
giving security to the life of the poor man. The first
step, then, was to secure the life of the peasant. Parlia-
ment made an advance in the right direction last year.
The poor-law must ultimately prove a valuable measure
for Ireland. But those who expressed astonishment
that the poor-law had not produced a greater effect in
the prevention of crime in that country should remember
that it had only been in operation about a couple of
months ; in fact it was hardly in operation yet—(Hear.
hear) and it was unreasonable to expect that
the feelings of the people of Ireland, the result
of centuries of misgovernment, should be al-
ready removed and changed by that Bill.
The Irish Poor law, however, only protected the lives of
the most destitute classes in Ireland, who would alone
accept the severe terms it offered. But the crimes re-
lated to the House that night were participated and
sympathized in by a much higher and larger class,
namely, the occupying tenants, who either suggested or
sanctioned or obtained the perpetration of such crimes.
One of the objects of the present Bill was to protect
property in Ireland. Well ! let Parliament protect the
property of the occupying tenants in Ireland, in order
that they might not fall into the class of destitute
paupers. It was the fear of falling into that state that
induced them to take a part in the commission of crimes.
It was a puzzle to many persons bow such crimes could
be brought about, but the explanation was simple
enough. If he wanted to describe the matter in it few
words he would say, that they arose in the struggle for
the means of subsistence, and to retain the livelihood
which the peasantry of Ireland for the most part pos-
sessed in their land. There were a million of occupy-
ing tenants in Ireland, and the means of living of three-
fourths of them were confined to the possession of
land. These outrages were also frequently committed
by persons deprived of other means of living ; a farm
labourer turned out of his place would find others to
sympathize with him, and revenge his cause. In
all cases it was a question of livelihood ; the people
dreaded the loss of the means of subsistence. This
stimulated the great mass of the peasantry to combine
in those secret associations, arid carry out the sentences
passed in their midnight tribunals, by means of the low-
est class of ruffians hired for that purpose. Lord Devon
states that the cause of agrarian outrages was always
disputes as to the holding of land, and the attempt of the
peasantry to convert the tenant's possession into an in-
defeasible title. In the north of Ireland the establish-
ment of tenant-right had prevented the commission of
these crimes ; but even there, when a tenant had been
evicted, without receiving the price of the good-will,
outrages had been the consequence. It was said that
these crimes were confined to a few districts of Ireland ;
but there were few counties where they had not at some
time broken out ; with the single exception of Dublin
there was no county where they had not at some time
prevailed ; and they always followed some series of
evictions, for the sake of consolidating farms, which
caused other tenants to dread a similar expulsion. The
quietest and most prosperous part of Ireland was the
province of Ulster ; and there the system which was the
object of this kind of intimidation was fully carried out.
The tenant right was the secret of the prosperity of
Ulster ; and he could not understand why persons took
such alarm at the proposal to establish it throughout
Ireland, when in Ulster it had proved so beneficial.
The landlords there got as good rents as those in any
part of the country, as they were sure, when a tenant
left, to get his arrears paid by his successor. The cause
of these outrages was the endeavour of whole classes,
per fag out nefas, to maintain possession of the means
of supporting their wives and families by their own in-
dustry.
Sir R. PEEL said—Sir, I should be unwilling to let
the first night of the debate on the proposal of her Ma-
jesty's Government pass without taking the opportu-
nity of publicly declaring that it is my intention to
give a cordial support to that proposal.—(Hear, hear.)
1 cannot resist the force of the appeal which the Right
Hon. Gentleman has made to the House. The Right
Hon. Gentleman has told you that her Majesty in the
Speech from the Throne has recommended you to take
into consideration the state of Ireland with reference
to the prevalence of atrocious crimes, to the impunity
of the offenders, and to the inadequacy of the existing
law to give protection to life and property. The Right
Hon. Gentleman has justly said that this House, with-
out committing itself to the details of any particular
measure, has, in an unanimous Address to the Throne,
conveyed to her Majesty an assurance that it will take
this subject into its immediate consideration.—(Hear.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman has also truly said that the
Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland and her Majesty's Govern-
ment, charged with the heavy responsibility of giving
protection to the subjects of the Queen, in return for
the allegiance which the law exacts from them, con -
sider the state of the law to be imperfect, and
that on their responsibility they must demand addi-
tional powers. The Right Hon. Gentleman has fortified
that claim, first made solely on the responsibility
those charged with the Executive Government by
reciting details of crimes which can leave no doubt ou
the mind of any man that it is our duty at once to at-
tempt, at least, to arrest the progress of what I believe to
be one of the most sanguinary tyrannies that ever ex-
isted in any country—(Cheers)—having a claim to b.s
called civilized. I assure the Right Hon. Gentleman
that I cannot resist the force of that appeal, because it
is precisely the same appeal which some two years since
I myself made in vain.—(Loud cheers from the Opposi-
tion benches.) Now, Sir, let me not be mistaken ; I
most fully admit that I think measures of this nature are
no remedy for the social evils that prevail in Ireland. f
admit the justice of the observation, that they are 11.1
remedy for the evils in the social state of that country.
Nay— for I will conceal none of the objections—it is al-
ways with great reluctance that I have consented to
propose, or that I consent to support them, because
there is this evil attending them, 'even with reference
merely to the peace and tranquillity of the country.
that it is impossible to propose them without, in
some degree diminishing confidence in the efficacy of the
ordinary law, and paralysing its operations.—(Hear,
hear.) But still, when I hear, upon the authority of the •
Government, and when I find the statement confirmed
by evidence, that there exists in Ireland a conspiracy—
for the Right Hon. Gentleman told us he bas the best
grounds for believing that a conspiracy does exist—for
the purpose of employing assassins, in order, without
reference to age, sex, property, or condition, to deprive
of their lives the faithful and unoffending subjects of her
Majesty—l say the permission of this practice is such a
scandal, that none of the objections that may apply to
the measure appear worth consideration, compared with
the evil of conniving at or permitting that scandal to
exist. And although I think this is no permanent re-
medy for the state of Ireland, yet I for one will not wait.
I will not postpone my consent to this measure till I hear
what are the other measures, what are the more perma-
nent remedies the Government has to propose. I will
enter into no parley or negotiation with these assassins.
I say it is our duty, if we wish to lay a foundation ft r
the permanent improvement of Ireland, to do all we cats
to preserve the lives of her Majesty's faithful and loyal
subjects in that country; it is our duty, without ulteri, r
considerations, to endeavour to paralyze the arm of the
assassin.—(Hear, hear.) I will not wait for other mea-
sures, though I think other measures are necessary. I
hope the House will apply its deliberate consideration to
the present proposition though I feel that Ireland, as a
part of the empire, ought to be as dear to Englishmen
as England itself, and requires the same consideration.
I feel strongly that no evil can afflict the state of Ireland
that will not react on this country; whether it be want
of employment, misery, or poverty, depend on it, the
evil effects of these causes will not be limited to the soil
of Ireland; they will react on the state of society hero.
on the position of the labourer, and the remuneration
he gets for his toil. I feel all those things strongly
and acutely; yet I am bound to say that any cies
who expects immediate results from any measures
which are to be permanent in their operation, well in-
tentioned as they may be, takes too sanguine a view of
the power of legislation to remedy evils of long endurance.
The length of their assurance is no doubt a reason for
the immediate consideration of them, but that is a reason
which should make us cautious lest, with the best in-
tentions, we might in endeavouring to correct them. fall
by hasty proceedings, into the worst legislation. Take
the remedies generally proposed. One is emigration.
At first sight, it seems a simple matter to transfer the
superabundant population of one part of the empire to
colony in want of additional labour; but wheinarthe dif-
ficulties u com
to address yourselves to the subject you
of it; you find how difficult it is ft
o transfer
portion of the population colonye e
so any
as
of Ireland to st
make the abstraction of the population tell
great
trouble.—(Hear, hear.)in tell
withouton the state
of Ireland, without great expense a
Then there 3 the measure on
which the Hcn. Gentleman (Mr. Scrope) has dwelt so
much, namely, the improvement of the relations between
landlord and tenant. The lion. Gentleman has laudably
directed much of his attention to that subjecet,o7udauhg:
a
adverted to the good effect of the tenant right in 'Ulster
the
state
ey
of
fe
thingsot ar causes for that
andcompared
Munster;unster; withhu
but
there
distinction which prevails in those provinces
therefore, I would advise the Honourable Gentlem'ananLodi
to rush too suddenly to the conclusion that the legiae
lsame usage as exists in Ulster
intoativ ecinotnrneaduugehtitonaonf the
and Munster
would at once pro-
duce there the same effect. There is another Hon.
Gentleman who is equally entitled to commendation for
the attention which he had given to this subject, I allude,
to the Hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. S. Crawford),
who has in his own case set an example which many
landlords might well imitate —(Hear hear.) I assent
to the justice of the principle. which I understand hina
to contend for. Ido think that the tenant—particularly
in Ireland, who has there to bear expenses which the
tenant in this country does not bear, such as, probably,
the expense of the erection of the place in which he has
to live--I do admit that the tenant who has improved
his property ought to have some claim against the owners
of the land. I think that a principle of justice—(Lear.
hear)—but I have heard it contended that the applies.
Lion of the tenant right of Ulster is no remedy for the
evils of Ireland, but that you must go further ; that you
must give the tenant a right (against the adverse right
of the landlord well-founded in law), to sell the occupancy,
improofvesmucchntahkeinmd7:lo4Z
made.WitiloUtilanzus referencet
thatsa7 t any
law
o any
h
ofrcocmupyhainvgintgenaatnet, ndtehnocujg,
it might produce u temporary to improve the condition of the
lull or quiet for some two months on the part of tb., was
immediately benefited by it, would be calculated m,
than anything else to shake the confidence, to dimin Leh
the stimulus to improvement, and to lead to confiscati on,
and would be as fatal to the well understood inter
of the tenantry as of the proprietors.
(E[ "es!
hear.) I, for one, think that there ought to b:

distinction in prinoiple between the law of property in
England and the law of property in Ireland with respect
to this tenant right. We admit here the justice of the
principle that the tenant improving his land ought not
to be dispossessed of it and made to forfeit the money he
has laid out in improvements at the mere caprice of the
landlord. I think that to be a principle of justice in
England, and I think it also a principle of justice with
reepect to Ireland ; but no man who considers tnis sub-
ject and desires to make it the subject of direct legisla-
tion can enter on the discussion without being soon aware
of the very formidable difficulties in the way. Only last
eeesion, or in the preceding session, there being a general
cosaeurreuce in the principle acted upon in Lincolshire,
sei'z., the principle by which the tenant, being dispos-
-1 . sod of 'els farm, has a right (not recognised by law, I
"believe, lint recognised by the landlords) to the value of
inezehausted improvements he has made on his land,
!seem len attempt was made to introduce by law that
Ischtel'ee throughout England, we know how great were
Ow difficulties of the subject, even while we did not,
et tb e same time, contest the justice of the prin
eilile.—(Hear, hear.) So it is with respect to Ireland,
and even with respect to the limited view of tenant right
talseen by the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, namely,
tb at the tenant should have the right to recover for
ienprovements made by him on the soil. Speaking of
bona fide improvements, I admit that to be just, and
`though I should cordially rejoice to see the principle
giving such security to the tenant embodied in a law,
yet, having considered the subject, I am fully aware of
the difficulties of it—difflCulties which ought not to make
us despair, out Ought, at say rate, to render us not too
sanguine.—(Hear, hear.) So with respect to many other
matters deeply connected with the social state of Ireland.
Feeling as I do the vast importance of giving them early
consideration, I am yet not sanguine enough to hope
that, great F. 3 the effects of the proper treatment of them
may be ule.mately, it would tell immediately on the pre-
sent condition of Ireland ; and, as I said before, I will
on no acesount wait. I wAI take an immediate step with
respect to assassination, conspiracy, and assassins ; and
will enter into no negotiation or capitulation with them.
—(Cheers.) It is not my intention, in giving my
support to the Government, to make any reference to
the bygone transactions of 1846.—(Hear, hear.) It has
been said by an Honourable Gentleman that it is
due to the late Government that you should resist this
measure because you defeated a similar measure when
they were in office. The best reparation you can make
to the late Government is to pass this law.—(Cheers.)
As for reparation in any party sense—l speak for my-
self--so far from wishing to see the passing of this
measure in any way urged against the Government as
triumph in reference to any proposal made at another
time, I utterly disclaim entertaining Bach sentiments.
The state of society in Ireland is the paramount consi-
deration, and all party disputes and squabbles are
utterly unworthy of consideration.—(Cheers.) The
Right Honourable Gentleman opposite has proposed a
measure which, on the responsibility of the Govern-
ment, he thinks adequate for the purpose. I think we
must regard the decision of the Government as almost
final in this respect. I think that a popular assembly
representing the people ought to be most unwilling to
force on the Government any measures which they do
not think necessary, and they being of opinion that
with the proposed measure they will be able to cope
with the existing evil, I think wo should be unwilling
to suggest proceedings departing in a more extraor-
dinary degree from the established law.—(Hear, hear.)
I wish to observe, however, that there are parts of the
proposed measure which Ido not understand. Ido not
understand what is to be the nature of the tribunal
before which, in a proclaimed district, offenders are to
he carried. I understand the Right Hon. Gentleman to
say that the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland should have un-
limited power to proclaim districts in Ireland corre-
spoltding with the limits of counties or smaller divisions.
Then I underetand that the Lord-Lieutenant is to have
a double discretionary power in respect to the possession
of arms—namely, a power to interdict the carrying of
arms except by parties named in the Act or specially
authorised.
Sir G. GREY—That would necessarily follow from
she proclamation.
Whir R. PEEL—I will take the case of a witness called
en to attend a trial, in a district where the sympathy is
with the murderer and not with the murdered man. I
take it for granted that the Lord-Lieutenant would allow
that witness the possession of firearms—that that was a
cue where he would exercise his discretion. Then I
understand that there might be cases where the peace
'as threatened in a higher degree, in which the Lord-
Lieutenant would have, by additional proclamation, the
hewer to prevent the possession of arms even in the
ouses of persons holding them, as well as on the high-
way. But the Right Hon. Gentleman has not said
whether this offence is to be tried by the ordinary or
special tribunals.
Sir G. GKEY—Precisely as Whiteboy offences are
now tried.
Sir R. PEEL—I am also bound to say that I think
the state of the law with respect to the possession of
arms, after this Bill has been passed, will be unsatis-
factory. In instances named by the Lord-Lieutenant
the population may be disarmed, either partially or
totally; there will be a power of domiciliary visits, and
of depriving all parties of the possession of arms, except
those who are specially permitted to retain them; but I
am afraid that, unless the exceptions are very wide, you
may create great insecurity in some of the disturbed
districts by almost indiscriminately disarming the popu
lation because, with the exception of matistrates, of
persona in the public service, or of persons who are
specially excepted from the operation of the Act by the
Lord-Lieutenant, all parties, without distinction, will be
required to deliver up their arms. retaining none for
their defence. There can be no doubt that many per
sons in the lower ranks of society are now in the pos-
session of arms for no dishonest or illegal purpose, but
beeilfide for the purpose of offering that resistance which
is the most effectual check upon the invader of the
public peace; for I believe that the shooting of one man
by the brave, determined occupier of a house, has
more effect in repressing outrage than half-a. dozen
executions —(Hear, hear.) But, if the intention of the
Bill should be to disarm, indiscriminately, all persons
but those who aro excepted from its operation, I am
afraid the effect of the measure will not be such as I am
sure the Right Hon. Baronet is desirous that it should
be—to afford additional protection to life and property.
In certain districts, proclaimed by the Lord-Lieutenant,
there will be a general disarming of the people. In the
adjoining districts there will be no prohibition, no restric-
tion whatever, as to the indiscriminate possession of arms
by all persons. Now, I must say that, although the
Arms Act has been given up, there are many districts in
Ireland in which repeated murders do not occur, yet in
which I think there is no justification whatever for per-
mitting the perfectly unrestricted possession of arms.
The LoM-Lieutenant will have the power of issuing his
proclamation to disarm certain persons ; but I think it
would be infinitively better to have a general Act, re-
gulating the possession of arms, applicable to the whole
counery, rather than to provide that in certain districts,
almost as bad, and immediately adjoining the prohibited
districts, the people will not only have the power to keep
arms in their houses, but to parade those arms in the
face) of the authorities at mid day, and to carry on those
shooting operations to which the police-constable of
whom we have heard referred. I think the state of the
law in this respect, under the Bill before the House,
would be very imperfect and unsatisfactory; and I hope
the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir G. Grey) will not abandon
altogether the notion of having some Arms Act, which,
lifiol as little vexation as possible, may regulate gene-
rally the possession of arms throughout the country.
What will be exactly the state of the law with respect to
Whiteboy offences under the proclamation it is impos-
sible to say, and I do not think that it is the occasion for
cut/tiring into those details. I consider that the Right
Hon. Baronet has offered a full vindication of this mea-
-wee. He has proved that there exists in Ireland a de-
'grew of insecurity which ought not to be permitted to
etentinue. I cannot say whether the Bill he pruposes
will be efficacious or not; but I earnestly hope, that If
before Parliament may separate there should be reason
to believe that it will nut be efficacious, no fear of taunt
will prevent him from appealing to Parliament to
strengthen the hands of the Government, My firm belief is,
speaking from the experience of ao or 40 years, that there
are certain districts in Ireland subject to all those great
caus.as which lead to the disorganisation of society, and
the,t there are some districts, for instance, in Tipperary,
witiere crime is inveterate and almost ineradicable. In
LBl4 I detailed cases of organised conspiracies to mur-
titer, directed against gentlemen of the highest respect-
lability, exactly similar to those which have been laid
before the House by the Right Hon. Baronet. I recol-
lect perfectly well a case in which, on each of three dif-
ferent roads approaching the town of Clonmel, five
assrissins, hired by a party of considerable wealth, were
stationed, in order to insure the execution of a magis-
trate of the highest respectability. By one of those
'oads this magistrate travelled, and by the five assassins
stationed on that road he was murdered. It appeared
that the assassins had been hired at two guineas a piece
.t!? commit the deed. A reward of 1,00017 was offered to
411 Y person but those who actually fired the shots, for the
conviction of each of the assassins. The person by
Whom they were engaged laid open the whole plot, and
e~claimed the reward. Two of the assassins whom he
eure?loyed were convicted, and in consequence of the
wanes) given by the Government, I paid that
man 2,opoL—(c -
t(z, s of
unPair to impute " Hear, hear. ') But it is quite
most unjust to jud Leland crimes of this nature; it is
oat the iniquitygoefof the general disposition of Ireland
hear.) I declare, watese particular districts.—(Hear,
j,'llehsii.cet to the great towns of
Ireland—for instance
Limerick, and Cork—
where the people are collected! together in large bodies
that they seem to be almost together submissive to the laws,
more obedient to the au
th
country—(Hear, hear than they are in this
)---and
the inhabitants of Wicklow and soaratheernocpay be said et
luntiees.molrne many districts of Ireland I think the
pre o
peaceable, more resigned and patient undere privation
tlan the people of this country, and they are quhi,te a;
obedient to the laws; and I conceive that nothi
be, more unjust to judge of the general character of Ctahne
people of Ireland from those plague-spots which have
been mentioned. But, if these crimes are so inve-
terate in certain districts, I greatly mistrust the
efficacy of any mere temporary law for their suppres-
sion. I greatly doubt whether it is not absolutely neeee-
eery to subject some districts to a permanent discipline.
I do not think it would be necessary to have enormous
have
I
penalties or unconstitutional powers; but would
new police districts, I would have the strictest registry
of every person within them, and I would subject those
districtse—as the Right Hon. Baronet proposes—to the
expense entailed by such measures; though when the
peoplfe are suffering, as is at present the case, from she
poverty, I do not know whether this step
would
afford any very effectual remedy. I would also have a
de ttective police, as well as a protective police.—(Hear,
,ar.) I consider that this is what you want in Ireland.
Yi eta have an excellent police for defeating powerful
co cabinations, but I think you are wanting in a detective
to Itese---(llears hear.) I think you ought to have a

police especially engaged in the detection of these
offenders. I think you should also give some assurance
to witnesses that, if they aid you in carrying the laws into
effect, they shall have valid protection. I know how
difficult it is to deal with this question. You must take
care not to hold out inducements which might lead to
unfounded accusations ; but when a man who comes
forward to give his evidence in aid of the operation of
the law is doomed, if not to murder at least to certain
ruin, it is a discouragement to the due administratio❑
of the law for which it is almost impossible to find a
remedy. And, even if you sent such a witness to Canada,
or to some of our other colonies, I fear that, with the
great facilities of communication which now exist, you
would not give him the protection he needs. I very
much fear that he would be a marked man in the colo-
nies, and that those facilities of communication which
now exist would be employed for defeating the due ad-
ministration of the law. These subjects, as it appears
to me, deserve the serious consideration of the Govern-
ment. As I said before, I think the necessity for the
immediate passing of a law against murder, and con-
spiracy to murder in Ireland, is most urgent. I will
quarrel with none of the details of this measure. I will
give it my cordial support ; and I trust that those who
opposed the measure brought forward in 1846, if they
have any consideration for the feelings of the late Go-
vernment will not withhold their support from the Bill
now before the House.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. M. O'CONNELL hoped, that if Government ob-
tained leave to bring in this Bill they would accompany
it, as far as possible, pari piissu, with a landlord and
tenant llill.
Mr. CALLAGHAN congratulated Ministers on their
having escaped the trap that had been laid to prevail on
them to introduce a Coercion Bill. He confessed it
afforded him very great gratification not to deny a Go-
vernment, to which he gave general support, the as-
sistance of his vote on an occasion like the present.
Mr. DISRAELI said, I had not intended, during this
debate, to trespass one moment on the attention of the
House ; but, with every wish to remain silent, I cannot,
after the speech which we have just heard fronsi the
Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamwortb, but
feel it due to myself and to those who opposed his Irish
Bill in the last Parliament, to take some pains in order
that the present House of Commons may understand
the position in which we stand towards the House and
each other with regard to the present Bill. I will not
say—though it would he a legitimate reason for the
course which we took—that it arose from a general want
of confidence in those who were then the responsible
advisers of the Crown. We did not oppose the Bill of
the late Government for regulating the possession of
arms in Ireland because we had no confidence in them.
On the contrary, though that would have been a per-
fectly legitimate ground of objection, it was not that which
we used; for I myself and other Members of the last Par-
liament objected to that measure, not because it was
brought in by the Government then in power, but
because we took exception to the provisions of that
particular Bill, and I therefore wish the House to

Understand the differences which subsisted between the

Right Hon. Baronet and the last Parliament on the sub-
ject of his measures of Irish legislation, and I desire
especially to call attention to the difference between the
policy towards Ireland of the present Government as
contrasted with that of the Right Hon. Baronet. At
the commencement of the session the administration of
the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth
announced to Parliament and to the country, that life
and property in Ireland were in imminent danger. I
hope the House will recollect--though many who are
now present did not belong to the late Parliament, but
they, I trust, even then took too strong an interest in the
condition of the country to remain ignorant of what was
at that time passing in this House—they, in common
with other Members, will, I hope, remember that Par-
liament was in a most hurried manner called together,
and we were informed that life and property in Ireland
were in imminent peril at the time of our assembling ;
yet the Bill of the Right Hun. Baronet for giving pro-
tection to life and security to property in Ireland was
not introduced for months after the meeting of Parlia-
ment—was not laid upon the table of this House till the
month of June.

Mr. HUDSON—It was brought in in the month of
April.
Mr. DISRAELI resumed—lt was not before Parlia-
ment fur any purpose of practical legislation till the
month of June. That session of Parliament, as we all
remember, was occupied with business of great import.
ance ; but, in the interval of its labours, time, I should
have thought, might have been found for those mea-
sures which the state of Ireland required, and, however
important the affairs which engaged its attention, they
could not have been more important than the protection
of life and property. We, who opposed the Bill, did
not resist it merely on account of the conduct of the
late Government in the management of that Bill, though
that of itself supplied a fair ground of suspicion ;
neither did we resist it on account of the extraordinary
circumstances which attended its introduction and dis-
cussion in the House of Lords, although even there the
circumstances were sufficiently remarkable to attract
peculiar attention for, so little were the Members of the
Cabinet in that House agreed as to the mode of pro-
ceeding, that on more than one occasion the solitary
Member of the Cabinet who had charge of the Bill was
on the point of resigning his duties in a pique. The
measure was one brought forward with very little pros-
pect or chance of success ; leave for its introduction was
obtained, and it was then laid on a dusty shelf until the
session was drawing to a close, and yet that was a Bill
for the protection of life ; hence we were entitled to say
that the late Government cotild not have seriously in-
tended to go on with that Bill. Months were allowed
to pa... 9 away in important and exciting debates, yet
neither that nor the other circumstances to which I have
adverted formed the only or the principal reason why
we opposed the Bill ; on the contrary, our objections
were of a more important character and spirit. My
Noble Friend the Member fur King's Lynn, who is, I
regret to say, prevented by indisposition from attending
he. e this evening—that Noble Lord took the lead in op-
posh.g the Bill ; he denounced it as a Cerfew Bill— as a
measure which would compel men to stay within their
dwellings after sunset. When I examine and analyze
the crimes which gave rise to that measure, as well
as to this, du I not perceive that flagrant and nume-
rous instances of noonday assassinations are to be
found, and that they were frequent before the introduc-
tion of the measure which the Right Honourable
Member for Tamworth submitted to Parliament? This
objection was often urged, and I never could learn that
it was ever satisfactorily answered. In my opinion, it
is much to the credit of the present Government that
when they did feel the necessity of interfering by means
of a legislative enactment they have done so early in
the session, and, as I believe, with a sincere intention to
pass the measure. It is not fur me—and I agree with
the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth that it is not for
any one sitting at this side of the House—to urge the
Queen's Government to advance in an outrage upon the
constitution. If the present measure be not strong
enough for the occasion, on the Government, and on the
Government alone, rests the responsibility ; and I need
not remind them that that responsibility is not a light
one. I must say I am happy to find that, after all we
have heard of the state of Ireland, an addition of 200
constables may secure the peace and prosperity of that
country.—(Hear.) But I have no doubt the Govern-
ment have well considered the subject. I have no doubt
they have great confidence in the officer who has to
administer the powers given by this law. It is not our
part, under any circumstances, to urge the Govern-
ment to exceed the powers which they have esti-
mated to us as necessary for attaining the purpose
which we all desire and lam glad to find that there
will be almost a unanimous consent in supporting the
measure which they have introduced. All that I have
risen fur is, that it should be clearly understood that
the passion of party did not induce us, even for the
purpose of terminating the existence of an Administra-
tion which we did not wish to endure—that nothing but
a legitimate consideration induced us to oppose the
measure of the late Government.—(Aa ironical cry of
" Hear.") I will answer that ironical cheer; I am not
saying that we did not embrace legitimate opportunities,
which every gentleman and every party would—(Hear,
hear)—and if there be any party in this House holding
the existence of a Government to be generally injurious
to the country, I should think the whole character of
of our constitution was lost if that party did not exer-
cise its power upon a legitimate opportunity.—(Hear,
hear.) I :say that that was not a factious opposition,
for these reasons which I give you, and let them be
answered; first, that the measure that was introduced
by the late Government, which, at the commencement
of the year, announced as the basis of its legislation
that the lives of her Majesty's subjects were in danger,
was not really proceeded with until six months after
Parliament had been sitting; and secondly, that that
measure contained a principle of legislation which we
considered unnecessary and arbitrary.—{Hear.)
Sir G. GREY begged to say a few words with regard
to the spirit in which the measure of the Government
had been received, and to offer his thanks to those mem-
bers who came down to oppose the Bill for having suf-
feren it to go on, because it was of great importance
that it should be brought on with promptitude. The
Bill would be in force till the 31st of December,
and then till the end of the next session of Parliament.
With regard to the observations of the Right Hon.
Baronet (Sir R. Peel), he (Sir G. Grey) had intended
to state that there was an advantage in the small farmers
retaining their arms, and that as to the license for carry-
ing the rule, and licenses would be granted to them to
have them in their houses for the purpose of protection.
With regard to the detective police, he was glad that
the Right lion. Baronet had mentioned the subject, be-
cause it reminded him to say, that Lord Bessborough, in
the early part of last year, had had his attention called to
it, and an organisation of such a force had been commenced.
and had been carried on by the present Lord-Lieutenant,
who a few days ago, reported favourably of its efficacy
in the detection of offenders. With regard to a general
arms Bill, having read the resolutions of the Fermanagh
magistrates, the Government still had no intention of
reviving the former Bill. Thero were, however, some
regulations as to the indiscriminate possession of arms,
Undern were tgh
te
h consideration of the Lord-Lieutenant, and
isnmoteapsruercjuilfednebeyesstahreyp, riensteonat
gßeinllerfarol mregeux--
lation. He would only remind the House, with regard
to the Bill of the Right Honourable Baronet in 1846,
that there was then an arms Bill in force, and powers
were asked for far beyond the ordinary powers of the
law, while that arms BiJrl d_id not expire till the end of
f earnest hope bmopeeasaunrde
wbtl'eloeluielsdie strengthen that
Iht
ew aaht
assenthi se
hands6°l f Parliamento rey'overnment and if
it failed in its object, and crimethedfroutrage continued,
ofnaorthse responsibi-
litypower as
nind7:effectualrht
the Government wouldthnfoutllyshar
of coming to Parliament and ask
would enable them, faithfully
to perform
their duties to the Sovereign and the people.
Mr. WAKLEYproposedas an amendment—" That it
is not just to the people of Ireland to enact a coercive
measure without, at the same time, proposing to enact
such measures as would tend to her permanent relief."

13 14 S U 14,