The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-20 00:00:00

gendered. I shall receive with pleasure any improve-
tnent upon the rules to be adopted in the schools with
respect to these things. Ido nut think that this grant
of 100,0001., of which a part will go to the dissenting
bodies, would entitle the Crown to exercise an undue
influence over voluntary societies. I say again, I should
like to see a change with respect to the rule adopted
in the schools in connexion with the Church ; and

I say further, that if any body of Dissenters are
willing to send their children to the Church schools, but
whicht hey are prevented from doing, by the existence of
this rule, I think that would be an additional reason for
granting aid to that place, in order that a school might
be opened where all the children of the town or village

might attend.—(Hear, hear.) But, Sir, the question is
the scheme, being—as I will admit it is—very imperfect
in many respects. The question is whether you will
not, in any way, try to combat the evil which Dr.
Vaughan describes in terms which I will now read.—
(The Noble Lord then read an extract from a letter by
the Rev. Gentleman, stating that the children of the poor
were growing up in ignorance and poverty ; and that
unless these evils were obviated that they would become
a source of danger to the State.—(Hear, hear.) I own,
Sir, I cannot but consider after reading that passage and
feeling impressed with its truth, that any one should be
an opponent to this system of education.—(Hear, hear.)
On my own part, seeing the evil is great, I am not dis-
posed to wait till I can get a more perfect scheme. I
am disposed rather to feel my way—to proceed as well
as wo can—until at length we may find that there is
some scheme which possesses a higher claim to be con-
sidered, as one which will promote, in a greater degree,
the intelligence of the people of this country, and on
which those of different persuasions will unite and emu-
late each other in rendering them most conducive to the
cultivation of the people—then I shall be happy to en-
courage a scheme of education which will meet with
the concurrence of those different denominations. In
the meantime, all I ask you for are these means—inade-
quate as they are—with the view, in some degree, to
dispel that ignorance—in some degree to promote religion
and virtue among a great mass of the people. When I
ask you to do so, I am well aware of the opposition which
this scheme has met with—well aware that it would
have been easier to have shrunk from the task, and not
have asked this House to grant anything more than the
millions upon millions which already have been granted
to the military forces of this country; it would been easier
to have said, " Let us have the usual millions which

you have voted from time to time for the army, and
navy, and for the ordnance ; but we will not ask for a
single farthing for the purposes of education." But,
Sir, that would not have been consistent with the duty
which we feel pressing upon us—to improve as far as in
us lies, the school teaching in this country—to assist, as
far as in us lies, in giving a knowledge of the ways of
virtue and knowledge—of the truths of religion to many
of the uninstructed masses of this country ; and be the
opposition what it may—however formidable it may be
at this moment—however formidable it may be—and
I lament to say, that such is the case, and that
the proposition has withdrawn from us the aid
and support of many who " through good and
evil report" have supported our political mea-
sures—be these evils what they may, it will be
a consolation to me to know that I have made an attempt
to diminish the empire of ignorance, and to raise the
people of this country in the scale of virtue and religion,
so that they may take a high and enviable position
amongst the people of all the nations of the world.
—(The Noble Lord resumed his seat amidst loud cheers.)
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE then rose, but owing to the
noise which prevailed occasioned by many Members
leaving the House, the commencement of his observa-
tions were not very distinctly heard. He said, no one
could be so unreasonable as to blame the Noble Lord
for the course he had adopted on the present occasion,
because he believed he was conscientiously discharging
his duty ; but, during the twenty-one years he had the
honour to have had a seat in that House,.he did not re-
collect a Prime Minister of the country ever paying so
great a compliment as to notice an individual Member
of that House, particularly so humble a Member as him-
self, and to condescend, and if possible, prejudice the
minds.of the House against the motion which he (Mr.
Duncombe) had placed upon the paper. The Noble
Lord might call his view of the matter an " idle appre-
hension. His consolation was that these apprehensions
were participated in by thousands, by millions of his
countrymen. The Noble Lord might call his resolution
a vote of censure on the Government, and a want of con-
fidence in her Majesty's Privy Council. If he chose to
adopt it as a vote of censure, he must do so; but if he
asked him if he had any confidence in the Council—
or rather in the Committee of the Privy Council, that
self-elected tribunal who were to be intrusted
with the carrying out of that scheme—in that tribunal
he had no confidence whatever. However the great
question involved in the motion might suffer in his
hands, yet he did feel confident that if the motion failed
it would not fail because there was anything in the re-
quest he was about to make that was unconstitutional,
or at variance with Parliamentary usage, or the practise
of that House; but if the motion failed, he felt that it
would fail in consequence of the inability which any
individual—an independent Member of that House—
must have in coping with that Ministerial influence
which he knew had been and was to be brought to bear
against his motion; and one of the difficulties with
which he should have to contend arose out of the agree-
ment and understanding, if not absolute compact, which
they had entered into with the members of the Church
of England and certain members of the Dissenting
community—compacts and understandings which he
would say were most disgraceful to those who
had made them calling themselves " her Ma-
jesty's Liberal Ministry"—in the face of their
former opinions and their avowed principles. His
consolation, at all events, would be, if he should
fail that he believed that he had the support and good
wishes on this occasion of a great portion of his country-
men. If they asked him what made him think so, he
should reply that since he gave notice of his motion the
other day, he had received communications from all parts
of the country asking him to persevere in his 'notion,
and saying that the House would neglect its duty and
betray its trust if it did not grant a Committee of inquiry;
or give, at all events, some information beyond that
which the Noble Lord had given before it voted away
any portion of the public money. Many of them were
connected as well with the church as with the dissenters,
and they stated further, that if ho had placed his motion
earlier on the paper, they would have been better
enabled to have supported him by meetings and
petitions ; but if he had done so there would
have been but one discussion, whereas now the
whole question would be fully debated. Notwithstand-
ing the views of the Noble Lord, he was still of opinion
that the scheme would prove dangerous both to civil and
religious liberty ; that it was a scheme to increase the
power of the Church ; that it exceeded the functions of
Parliament'; and that it would prove an injustice to that
portion of the community who would be compelled to
contribute to its maintenance, but who would derive no
benefit whatever from its establishment ; and besides, it
would not attain the object it sought to accomplish, as it
would carry jealousy and dissension into every locality
in this country if it should be carried. The Noble
Lord had talked about intimidation having been used to
prevent the Members of that House from doing their
duty ; but he should like to know what means
had been adopted on the other side to get up
demonstrations in favour of the Government measure ?
In 1839 the Government postponed a national scheme of
education because they found they could not reconcile
the differences which prevailed on the subject; but after
the petitions which had been presented that night against
the present scheme, he asked whether there was any-
thing like concurrence or approbation in favour of it ?
The Noble Lord might feel himself very strong in
having bought off the Wesleyans, and obtained the sup-
port of the Church of England. He denied, however,
that the whole body of the Church of England intended
to support the Government, as a petition which he had
presented from the diocese of York stated that the peti-
tioners were but beginning to understand the plan, and
saying that they were at a loss to know what portion of
the clergy were in favour of it, as they were entirely at
a loss to know. These were not idle apprehensions. as
the Noble Lord had called them, but the apprehen
sions of members of the Established Church. Ile
agreed entirely in the prayer of that petition. The
House had witnessed what had been presented—that an
immense majority were against it, and that but a small
number were in favour of it, and that they were pre-
sented by tho Noble Lord ; and it was right that the
House should know how they were obtained. They
proceeded principally from Members of the Established
Church, and when it suited the Noble Lord he could
get up demonstrations in favour of this measure. There

were 12,000 parishes in this country, yet after all the
endeavours of Lord Ashley, making arrangements first
with the Wesleyans, and next with the Church of Eng-
land, he had not been able to accomplish much in favour
of the Government plan. He held a prospectus in his hand
of a society established to advocate the Government plan,
the Chairman of which was Lord Ashley ; and then be
had a copy of a circular which had been sent round to
all likely to lend themselves to getting up demonstra-
tions in favour of it. It was dated April 6, 1847, and
after commencing Reverend Sir, went on to state that as
it had been already asserted, that there should be an ex-
pression of opinion on the part of those favourable to the
measure, the signer of the circular wished the parson
to whom it was addressed to get signatures without
delay to a petition in favour of the scheme ; so that
every parson in a village was to become a petition agent
for the Government—it went on, "to a petition, one
which is sent"—sent all cut and dried from the Privy
t
Council no doubt—(Laughter)—" the petition must be
written on parchment, and one or more names must be
written on the body of it."—(Continued laughter.) If
this was not done, no doubt his Honourable
Friend who was on the printing Committee,
would not allow it to be printed. It went on, "As
they must be sent in before the 17th, no time is to be
lost ; and they may be either sent to me pre-paid—
(Laughter)—(that was a most material point in the mat-
ter, they were all pre-paid at the parcel office), or to the
Right on. Lord J. Russell, M.P.—(Roars of laughter)
—l3, Chesham-place, who has kindly promised to take
charge of them.—(Continued laughter.) (Signed) H
Hughes, Gordon-square, Incumbent of All Saints." Ile
(Mr. Duncombe) imagined that he would not be long
allowed to remain an incumbent, and that he would be
promoted to a bishopric.--(Hear, hear.) Then came
the postscript, which, as in all letters,
was the most
important part of the document. " I have authority to
state, that the authorised Scriptures must be read daily
in all the schools receiving aid from the State."-e(fiear.)
Ile Noble Lord had told them of the destitute condi-
tion of the different classes of the community as far as
regarded education. Why then had he not taken any
notice of the Roman Catholic whom he was about to
exclude. He held in his hand a statement taken from
the " Catholic Directory of 1846," where it was stated,
that there were in the different districts of London,
65,307 Roman Catholics, poor persons requiring gratui-
tous education ; and that out of these there are only
30,207 who receive it. He should like to know why
these other 30,207 unfortunates had not attracted the