The Sun.
London, England, 1823-06-03 00:00:00

UN.

known that Gentleman for forty years, and knew him- to be a
most worthy man,
The petition was ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. HUME then moved for dictum of the sums raised for
'Aletage in the city of Westminster, And an IWO= t of the ap-
promotion of the same.
The motion, amended at the suggestion of 3lr. lit s s a •t' o\ •
SO as to include the City of London, wits agreed to.
STANDING ORDER OF TIIE HOUSE.
Lord A. HAMILTON rose to bring forward the motion of
which he had given notice, conceiving that he had a right to,
precedence on this occasion.
Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW spoke to order. He considered the
Noble Lord had not the right which he had cluinied, this being
an order day. .
The SPEAKER directed the Standing Order to hal.ead.
The Standing Order was accordingly read by the Clerk : it
was as follows Feb. ii, 11.1.23. Resolved, that in the pre-
seat Session of the Parliament all orders of the day on Mondays
and Fridays shall be disposed of before the House will enter-
tain any motion of which notice has been entered in the Order
book."

. . . .
Mr. Sexjeant-ONSLOIV then moved that the Orders of the
Day Should be read.
The SPEAEIt said the Noble-Leta .had !vet in possession the House when the Hon. and ..Learned Gentleman culled
hintto order. Ile was therefore to be regarded 'as still in pus.
session of it, and a motion could not be received from any other
Hon. Member till the Noble Lord had-sat down. • •
LordA. HAMILTON. considered hiMselt in - order till-it
could be shown or said that he bad tlone something disorderly.
He then reminded the Houlie of the frequent postponements
to which he had consented for the geheateonvenience. An.
understanding had been come to that, be should have prece-
dence on this day, and he was content to have the question to
be decided by the Gentlethen opposite, and by
.them alone,. if
the claim which he now put forward was not consistent with
the practice of the Muse.
Mr. S. WaRTIJE V thought it desirable to adhere to the
Standing Order, which bad been framed to enabletheni to get
on more expeditiously-with the business of the Seision.
Lord CRAN BORNE was desirous that his Bill for amend-
ing the Game Laws should be • pro,',eeded with. The rule-of
the House he was disposed to make the rule of his conduct on
this occasion.

Mr: Secretary CANNING said the House was placed in an
awkward-situation. Undoubtedly it was for the generel con-
venience that the Standing Order should in most east be strict.
ly adhered to. But at the same time, for the accommodation
of different parties,. it had often been agreed to (and he be-
lieved in the course of the present Session), that On an order
day a particular motion should take precedence, or vice versa,
that on a certain motion day a particular order should be de-
bated. Ile wits not in the House when that understanding was
come to on which the Noble Lord claimed precedence on this
occasion, or be might have suggested that it would have been
better to fix it for a motion day. But the Noble Lord had so often
consented to the postponement of his motion, that he was not
prepared to say he , should have refused his concurrence to an
understanding which gave him that priority on an order 'day
which was now claimed: So far as he was concerned then, though
it would be to sanction a deviation from the strict rule of the
House, on this particular occasion hia voice would be in fa-
vour of the Noble Lord. He indeed thought it would he for ,
the convenience of all parties that-the Noble. Lord being in
possession of the House, should proCeed with his motion.
Mr. Serjeant ONS LOW said lie had not been aware of the
understanding which'had been come to till it was mentioned by
the Noble Lord.
Lord CBANBORNE expressed a wish that his Rill shOuld
be advanced a stage, if it were not then debated.
The SPEAKER said he was old enough 'to remember when
the Sessional 'Order was first framed, to which referehee had
now been made • and he recollected that it was then declared
beemany Members, that they would not give •Up the privilege
of making ae.motioo without notice, in consequence of the
adoption of that standing order. A Member being in posers-
sion of the House, nothing was more clear than this, that, voile
sistently with the rules of the, House, another Member could
rot move an amendment till the lbrmer had Made Lie motion,
as it was impossible to know what, that motion would be till it
was made. In the.presena iattance, till the Noble. Lord made
his motion, it was impossible to deride that he was disorderly.
He might intend to conclude by moving that the Order of the
day should be read.
SCOTCH, COUNTV REPRESENTATION.
Loid A.HAMILTON then proceeded. He stated it to be
one'orhigeohjecte to induce that !louse 'to pay more attention
the,opanien of their constituents than they were accustomed
to fl but at the same time he did not on the present occasion
acme forward with a general motion of Reform. He proposed
to bring 'before them the state of the county representanonof
Seettland,:e The Noble Lord entered into a description of the
defetta siiiicheet present existed. Ile sheaved it • had been the
dpinieneof the late Lord Thurlow, that under the present sys-
tem Members might be returned in direct position to the
wishes: of those whom they were supposed to represent...
Such: a state -of things Imperiously called fbr some . change.
There were three points to which be was anxious to aadress
himself. In the first' place, it was desirable that 'those ree
turned to Parliament should speak the sense of the people.
Secondlyethey ought to have credit for speaking the sense of
these whom they represented ; anti, thirdly,. they might to be
in sonic degree under the eontroul of their constituents. At
present nothing more was known of those who sat in that
House for the City of Edinburgh, than that they were chosen
by' about thirty-three' persons to represent that City ; and of
the Scottish Counties, all they knew was, that a certain number
of persons returned those who sat in the House of Commons as
county representatives. Ilow, then, he would ask, could they
be supposed to speak the sense of the people, or have credit
for doing so? went on to spew that the Scotch Coun.
ties haft no efficient contvoul over their: representatives.—
lie should proceed to spew not only that the evitexisted, and
that it had long existed, but that it was in progress of growing
worse and worse. Ile begged to ask on what the repreeenta;
Lion of Scotch Counties depended ? To him it appeared that it
depended on a sheet of paper, which did not transfer more than
the value of one penny annually. In England, if a person let
out small parcels of freehold ground to forty persons, from
whom he received annually the sum of one shilling each, the
proprietor would have a forty shilling freehold. If each of
the forty persons paying the annual rem of one shilling, pose
seated property to the amount of 1,000/. of another desert.
tion, the anomaly would arise that the forty shillings would be
represented, while property to the amount of 40,000/. would
be unrepresented. But still greater arimalles existed iii con-
nection with the repi•esentation of Scotland. All the County
Members were returned by 2,209 voters. lie himself had a
vote for five counties without owning an acre of land in any one
of them, andit'would be no difficult thing to get a tote for all
the remaining counties of Scotland under the same circum-
stances. The Noble Lord entered into further details on this
subject, anti spewed that in one instance the voters for a county
were no more than nine, and the largest number in any county
in Scotland WWI 240. Front the returns made two years ago the
voters on property and superiority in his county amounted to
sixty-six, while the voters upon superiority alone were ninety.
five. Supposing the latter should choose to vote for one can-
didate in opposition to the • former, the 'representative would
be elected by those who had no land, while the 60 land-ownere
would have the right of voting indeed, but with the certainty
of their vote proving ineffectual. Was this a state er things
which any one could defend, and if it were not, would any
one contend that it ought not to be altered ? In the county
of Lanark there were 154 voters who had no freeholds, 154
Commissitmers Of Supply, on whom devolved the right of re-
turning Men-there to that House. In the county of Kirkeud;
bright there were sixty-one vote's in superiority alone, and
'54 Cninmistiioners Of Supply who had no freeholds. In Scotch
representation, those correctives were not to be found which
were seats; to apply to the state of representation in England.—
Wthere Were any defect in the representation of boroughs in
England, it was said to be corrected by the effect of English
councils. Put where was the corrective which applied to the
representation of the Scotch Burghs. The truth was, those re.
turned were not pratically the representatives of the people,
and for the correctness of this remark he would refine to het
Honourable Friend behind him, to often erroneously termed
the Member for Aberdeen, though he had never slaked
any -support from that i plate. Notwithstanding this tart, his
Honourable Friend bed frequently been described by thee.
who were hostile to !aim as being returned for Aberdeen ;
i"tquartn'oeiblrly.eteilnaYile:reigennt,::,Prietul wereif nab: eYitiohrutle rsss usti snickhaw 'political
siph he 1:11:114a41(11311:1rUiUhlieihi610:61: :11E1
founts that
ff'iT.tlni
countiee the proportion of voters to the population was one
to tax hundred -and twenty-five, and in boroughs one to seven
thousend and upwards. Ile would ask whether this was a fair,

PRICE SEVENPENCE:

honeat, full representation of the people. He would now.
proceed to state to the House a few of the practical results of
this system, as displayed at a contested election. Pretioua to
the late election for Lartarkshire, the county he had the honour
to represent, he was one morning surprised to see an adver-
tisement in the Paper, of a person offering himself to repre-
sent the county of Una*. He meant to say nothing disre-
spectful of that honourable person, bat only to state the facts
which occuired. Such was the indifference with which-the
right Of repreaentatichi was viewed, owing to the system which
prevailed, that this gallant Admiral not only Was net qualified
as a freeholder to vote ler the county, but he could not by
possibility become so before the election, as he must first hold
his freehold a year and a day: The first thing he set about was
to get as many paper supenorities al he could, and it being
considered a Governthent contest, every person that was as-
sailable was considered as fair game, and was attacked in all
Possible ways. NoW he (Lord A. Hamilton) was not ashamed
to say that he acted as others did in such cases. The first step
he took was to buy as much superiority as he could, and fo
parcel it out so as to make as many voters as he could. Upon
the next step he must be a little mysterious. The great daft-
culty was, after having divided the superiority, to dispoxe of
it to such persons as he was sure would vote fur him ; and the
means of itecomplialling this formed the mystery to which ha
alluded.:--(A laugh.?—But it wall astonishing with what Saga.
city a e.k' •otelt Law Agent knew how a Man would vote by his
)'hysiognomy.—(A laugh.)---Tor his own part he believed that
in not one of those to whom . they sold his .-superiority were
they mistaken. He believed there was not one man who did
not vote for him. He dared to say thattlie Learned Lord was
acquainted with this science, and no doubt practised it upon
the same occasion. At all events he knew that he practised
it, and should again. lie mentioned these details to the
House, to expose the system which-existed. The Noble Lord
then went into a description of themethod of conducting county
elections, and read a list of the questions put to voters, con-
tending that they were improper, and incompatible with the
freedom of election. The means of carrying elections into
effect were not' less objectionable from the power given to the
Officers .of the CroWn, and particularly to. die Sheriffs Depute.
There was a science understood by ' them, 'of appointing the
days of voting for the different counties, in such •a manner as
to weaken the strength of the liopular candidate. This had
been practised against hint to his great discomfiture, although
he eventually succeeded. Yet it was only by a very few
votes i whereas, if the election had been- conducted properly
and fairly, he 'should haVe had a large majority. One me-
thod of oppesition was that' of getting lawyers to tall;
for the porno:et, :of gaining litile) or of putting off votes.
There could be- no tuljountment of the poll; and it was
consequently kept open till the final close. Upon one oc-
casion there was a vote wanted froni Edinburgh, a distante
of sixty miles; and the lawyers engaged ttitalk until a Messen-
ger went and returned—(A. laugh)—and he believed they sur-
eeeded;' 'The ' Noble Lent then remarked upon •the difficulty
of deciding what was a legal vote. In. conaequence of this di&
ficaliy, twerity-fisie different law suits had been commen CM
against hiin upoh as many votes, which were alleged. to be bud..
independent.of this power of litigation,- 'appeals were ellewed ;
and then all sorts of speculations were matte as to which
President and which Court would be likely to have a political
bias in favour of a particular party.—t Hear, hear!)—So far
was this formerly carried, that before the old 'fifteen, as it was
culled, before the fifteen Judges t was as 'well 'known what
decision would be come to upoil a political ' vote, as it was
Upon a parliamentary' division. Anti evennow; no mite in his
senses would think of going before a Scotch Court npoh a cdse
of that kind--such watt the political biltii Which' existed. He
would Stake his whole character and -reputation upon being
able to. sheiv that a political bias on the part of the Learned
Lord had operated against him upon the case in 'which he was
the pFatiknitgafrfat. the Beacon newspaper: ' While these law-
suits were Pthdifig; „a-: Petition was presented to the House,
and a Cortimitteentight have decided- Who the sitting Member
• was, contrary 'id the decision of the Courts of Law. These
I were some oldie evils of the system of reruns, and the general
: evils, he hail pointed out he called unon a Britieh House of
!'Coalitions to remedy. In what he desired to propose to the
noilst; it was not his intention to do violence to any existing
rights, but to add to the numbers 'of voters, and to soonest the
right of voting with landed property. ' lithe House agreed
with hint so tar, hi' should leave it to decide what aineutit' of
property ishohltffbrAftt tittlaitieOtiOn to (lite. What he shoold
think a desirable qthilification would be a hundred pounds
Scots, or eig•hty poen& sterling: Ile hail thought it necessary
to go intodetails in Order to make out his case, but his wish
was to meet the question upon its broad principles. The qq.
tent had contributed to forui a sliew of numbers in the majori.;
' ties of the House, in the same way as the close homughs hi the
hands of the Crown, and had tended to degrade the• character
of 'Scotland to the lowest pitch. The fiery meatiest thing that
could be saki. of a transaction was, 'that it was. it Scotch job.
The Noble Lord then concluded byanoring his resolutions :
-" 1. Thar it appeared hy.ss certified copy of the Roll of Free-
holdersofvexy .county in Scotland; ais)kat, made up, laid be.
..fore this House in July, 11326, that tite•totainumbers, hissing a
right to vote awn:on:tin 41,those ettatAies together did not
exceed 2,131iti., .r .. '• - - ' . . .

, • .
" 2. That by the same return is appears that the greatest
number of persons having a right to vote in any one county did
not exceed 240—viz. for the county of Fife; and that the
smallest number did not exceed 9—viz. for tha county of
Cromarty.
" 4, That it. further appears, from the same•return, that the
persona have a right to Imo in several counties, and cow-
gamily that the total :number of voters for •all the counties of
Scotland is considerably less than 2,809.
" 4. That it further appears to this House, that the right of
Voting for a Scotch county depends, not on the posse.saion•of the
dorninium utile of a real landed estate in that county, but on
holding the superiority over such estate, which superiority may
be, and frequently is, disjoined from the roperty, inatenuCh
that of all the persons qualified to vote for a Scotch county.
there May not be one who is possessed of a single acre of land
within the county, while the whole of the land may belong to
anti be the property of persons who have not a single vete for
the Representative.
ThatthiS ifnuse will, early in the next' Sessiqn of Par-
liament, take into its most serious consideration the state. of re-
presentation of counties in Scotland, with a view to etiect same
extension of the number of votes, - and to establish mope eon.
nection between the right of voting and the leaded property of
that country." •
31r. M A XNV Id, seconded the resolutions, and said that
he could not see the possibility of their being opposed. lie; had
often heard the address and skill with which the Right-Mon.
Gentleman Opposite (Mr. Canning) contended against evt ry
species of reform. Indeed, he considered him to be the only
one who had offered any thing like argument against it. Ono
of his OM arguments was that the present system worked
well. Now, he (Mr. Maxwell) had come to a very different
conclusion ; and at least, with regard to Scotland, he was quite
sure that the large masa of the people believed, and knew that
their interests and prayers never would' be attended to or
heard in that House until the system were changed. The Bon.
Member then expressed his disapprobation of th! currency
measure of 18111, and of the distillery laws of Scotland. 1.7p0n
these general questions he felt himself justified in seconding
the motion.

Sri G. CLERK contended that no alteration could be made
in the elective franchise of Scotland, unless the Howe was pre..
pared to make a whole change in the tenure of property, and in
its municipal laws. The present system was well adapted to
the state of society there. It hail existed ever, since Scotland
had had a free Constitution, and no complaints had liec=n heard
against it from any part of the people. The only ground upon
which the present motion was advanced, appeared to him to
be, that the Noble Lord and his party 'teethed to try epic ex..
periment of altering the whole law of election in R: nllacrid.
Ile was convinced that, under no eyvtent, 'could the landed
terest or Scotland be better represented than at present. no
Noble Lord had said that he bad no personal interest in this
Illation, and he should have thought that such a declaration wait
quite unnecessary. Yet almost all the latter part or til‘ Noble
Lord's speech consisted of complaints of bis own peraeml suf..
feringa and inconveniences. The Noble Lord sail Out it was
not property which was repreeented in, his county, hot that it
was only a representative of parchment voter*. lint the fact
was, that these voters were ereatcql by the overweening in-
fluence of certain Noble Families in the county. It was the
influence of one Nobleman which, returned the Noble Lord,
therefore he was in fact the reprementative of the property of
the county. If there were no other objections to die altera-
tions which the Noble Lord proposed„ the Act of Union with
Scotland was a complete bar to them. In the face of that Act
they could not alter the Law of 'Election, unless it were tier
the purpose of bettering the condition of the people of Scot-
land, anti unless it were done with their connect and at their
desire. The Nobles Lord had failed to show that such an al-

Aeration wtittelte`seesary upon either of these -cases. The
Noble Lord hOetritered into a long detail as to the mode
in which Scort# elections were conducted, but the House were
not to be infoinled of the stratagems to which recourse was
had on English Elections for the purpose of keeping the poll
open ; and asi to the expence of a contested election for an
_English County, he believed the Noble Lord opposite, the
Member for Yorkshire, could give the House every necessary
information. In short, there was no evil complained of, as
existing under the Scotch system, which did not apply with
tenfold. force to that of England'. The conduct of the She-
riffs, to which allusion had been made by fie Noble Lord,
he (Sir George) believed to be, in general most inipar-
tiaL The Noble Lord had said, too, that there was a po-
litical bias in the Courts of .Justice in Scotland, whenever
cases Were brought before them 'respecting elections--
Ile (Sir George) however, thought the experience of the Noble
Lord in his own election cases brought before the Scottish
Courts the particular individual case of the Noble Lord to
-which he had alluded, was one which went to the Jury, on a
charge of attacking the character of the Noble Lord ; and the
Jury gave but a shilling damages. It was the Jury, there-
fore, and not the court who were to be blamed by the. Noble
Lord, if blame could be applied to any one. With regard to
the remedy proposed by the Noble Lord in the Resolutions, he
did not exactly understand it, There were instances wherein
the superiority and the beneficial right were in the same per-
son; and it did not appear how the Noble Lord proposed to
deal with these. He (lid not believe, however, that the :Motion
would confer any benefit upon the landed interest of Scotland;
or that some of them would be satisfied with any thing short of
what was proposed in a former Session by the Member for
Durham, on what was Ito often advocated out of doors, the
.doctrine of universal Suffrage. The common-place observations
in which the Noble Lord had indulged at the expence of his own
.countrymen were unworthy of him. Ile (Sir George) believed
i
the landed Gentlemen of Scotland were ntelligent, and as in-
dependent as those of England. He did not think it necessary
to touch upon any other parts of the address of the Noble Lord
especially as much of it related personally to the Noble Lord
himself. As the first firer resolutions proposed by the Noble
Lord related to matters of fact, he should move the previous
question upon them, and should meet the other by a direct
negative. In conclusion he would warn the House not to assent
to the motion of' the Noble Lord ; for if' they did, the cause of
reform in England would have advanced a most important step.
The Ilan. Baronet concluded by moving the previous question
on the first resolution.
Mr. KENNEDY supported the motion, contending, that
an adoption of it would not affect the feudal law of Scotland.
—The system complained of, was that which made the nia.
jority of the 'Scotch Members subservient to the existing
Government, be that Government what it might. The whole
property of Scotland was liable to be overwhelmed by those
who possessed the ideal right of superiority. The average
of voters for each person was but ninety-six ; and that of the
populatiOn was as much as 60,000. In fact, lie really thought
the principal merit of a Scotch County was in any case wherein
the election could be managed like that of a close Borough.—
Whenever there was really a contest, it was one which chewed
the most degrading species of electioneering Intrigue. He
never knew a contest to be one of real principles with regard
to the public conduct of the Candidates. There was no such
thing as a county meeting for the expression of public feeling;
and he was justified in saying, that such a meeting was what
a county meeting had been called on another occasion, " an
arrant farce." Ile did not advocate the entirely throwing open
of the elective franchise; but he did object to its being kept
too close. There should always be an 'outlet for the expression
of popular feeling.
.111 r. TWISS opposed the motion. He thought it aimed at
a violation of the Articles of the Scotch Union. He did not in-
tend to argue that every one of those articles was immutable ;
but he thought the one which would he affected by this motion
ought nut to be disturbed. The Act for abolishing heritable
jurisdictions had expressly reserved the right of superiority; a
circumstance which chewed how 'careful the Legislature of the
day was, not to Interfere with the existing represeotative system.
Much stress had been laid on the circumstance that, under the
present system of Scotch county representation, many of the
voters possessed no property. This, however, was no greater
evil than that which prevailed in English boroughs, the right
of election in which was vested, in the freemen. In these cases,
even a beggar who might get any one to, pay for the stamp
on which ills admission was engrossed, was entitled to vote.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH said that the presentinothin no more
led to any extensive measure of Reform than did the disfran-
chisement of a ilelimptent Boroupt. The lion. Baronet had
Justified the present system in hendand, by reference to a
few isolated abuses in English Representation. The broad
feet was, that the great body of Freeholders in English Coon-
tie i elected the Members, hut in Scottish Counties the system
was founded upon a, principle having no connection with pro-
perty at all. The, analogy of the case of Scottish Freeholders
to English Copyholders could not be.maintained with reference
td the present question, for it must first be shown that the Copy-
holders were dependant, had no real property, and never even
visited the place for which they voted to send MeMbers to
Parliament ; and yet this was often the case with the Scotch
Superiors, as they were called, the paper Barons. He objected
to the treating of Scotland as a district of the country at large,
tar this could not be properly done unless the levet of England
were the same as those of Scotland. The Scotch County re.
presentation could never be called a security for
.godd Go-
vernment ; for Scotland would have as much security as she
now had, if she were to have no elections at rill. He was sur.
prised at the argument of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman re.
tweeting the Act for abolishing heritable jurisdictions. That Act
was an intenneddling(according to law), with the rights of pro.
perty ; and if, therefore, it was a violation at all, of the Ar-
ticles of Union, it was a much greater tharethat contemplated
by the present motion. Indeed, the motion of his Noble 1 riend
wont to the security rather than to the taking away of any
right. The present system could not be defended, even on the
ground of antiquity, for the right of Election for County Mem-
bers was admitted by the itecords of the Scotch Parliament.
'Pie lion. and Learned'Oentleman here referred to the Act of
the Scottish Parliament, passed in the year 1427, during the
reign of King James the First. This Act was confirmed in
wri; and at the time of' the Revolution was presented to
William and Mary with the Crown of Scotland. It formed
part of the Articles of Grievances. An Act was passed after-
wards reciting that part of the Articles of Grievances, declar-
lag that two " or more" Members should be sent from each
county according to its largeness, no more than two Mem-
bers being sent by any, county before ; and thus, by the el.
fact of this Act, twenty-six Members were added to the former
nutithers of the Scottish Parliament. The object of this Act
was declared to be " to give the lieges a more equal re-
presentation in Parliament." This Act was most material
in its effects, for it diminished the sulfrage of every Scottish
Peer. Thus the law stood until the Union, and the Scotch ne.
go:istors on that occasion had deprived themselves of all clahn
to respect, were it only for 'overlooking the people's rights as
they were established by this law.• The motion now before the
louse sought merely to redress grievances of a character similar
• to theteif those which had been redressed several centuries since
by the Scottish Parliament, and to adopt a principle which
formed a part of the constitution of that country as well as of
this. A more unfortunate example no reasoner ever stumbled
upon than that of Ireland, quoted by the lion. Bart. opposite.
It was the undue extension of voting there that was the cause of
all its defects in representation. It was the system of creating
nominal voters, who were brought up to the hustings like
driven cattle, and who did not vote from gratitude or habitual
attachment, which he hoped would ever bind the Gentlemen of
England with the people of England in indissoluble bonds,
that the miseries of that country were in a great part owing.
As a native of Scotland, although he might not again reside'
there, tile might be allowed to say that -he yielded:nothing of
his attachment. He had passed his life in England, observing
arid studying{ he operations of her free Constitution ; and he'
desired extbnd the same institutions and advantages to his
own country. When-they were reproving every other coun-
try in the universe for not assimilating its laws and govern-
ment to those of England, it was redly too notch in the
same breath to say that the moral and intellectual people of'
Scotland were unfit to receive its benefits, or unworthy to
enjoy them. Moral conduct lie always considered as the test
of the proportion of liberty a people were entitled to or able
to enjoy. Mr: Burke, who surely was not rash in adopting
principles, said that it was the province of good government
to ascertain how much, not how little, liberty the State could
hear, at the same time that he described liberty as the stirnu.
hint to every talent, the parent of every virtue, and the source,
of every excellence. He wished to hear arguments against this
proposition, not in favour of it. His Noble Friend's motion
was only the diet= approach to that state Scotland ought to
enjdy. It was not Parliatnentary Reform, nor did it pledge
sr./ one who voted for it to a support of' that theorise:; whilst
to refuse to accede to the reasonable request of his Noble
Friend, would he unjust towards Scotland, and unsafe as the
permanent policy of England.—(hear, hear f i ,
Lord BINNING contended, that the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman who had just sat down, could not support the argu-
ment lie had put forward, maintaining that the present question
had no connexion with the general question of Parliamentary
Reform. A measure to change the whole face of representa-
tion, was compared by one of its advocates to the punishment of
sa delinquent boroughs. On the contrary, he (Lord Binning)
considered the proposition then before the House as involving
one of the greatest practical changes ever proposed in that
House. Such a measure never was proposed upon such slen-
der grounds. There was not even a petition ; and he took
leave to say, that if the people of Scotland felt the griev-
ance put forward for them, they would take care to let the
House know it. But the fact was, they had no grievance to
eatimplein of'. They .were a perfectly free ,and intelligent

people; hall 'liberty of discussion, It 'free press, and freedom
in every shape for practical enjoyment. The Noble Lord
went into an argument to shew that the propositions'of the
Noble Mover tended to introducit a change founded upon the
prerogative of land. If it were so :the Noble Lord forfeited
the very ground upon which he claimed the assent of the House
to his present motion. He admitted that
..he could not defend
the system of Scotland in theory ; tin practice it was so
bound up with the Constitution, that it had become an integral
part of it. He therefore called upon the House to reject the
motion of the Noble Lord. The words of the Act of Unicn
against this change were plain and.decisi4e, and itbecome,the
House to consider well ere it made any change in the Consti-
tution of Scotland without knowing it to be for the benefit
of the
.people. They had not yet heard upon
,this subject
the voice of the Scotch people, and that was an important
argument against their entertaining this question. He repelled
the gratuitous assumption of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
opposite, that, in opposing this motion, he stigmatized the
people of Stotland as unworthy the, boon of liberty. He was
of opinion, on the contrary, that the peasant of Scotland was
the best description of character in the world. Babe consi-
dered they had every practical liberty, and therefore, and also,
as they did not demand it themselves, he opposed the corn-
prehenvive change which the Noble Lord would periunde them
to adopt.
Mr. J. P. GRANT gave hishearty concurrence and support
to the motion of his Noble Friend. Connected as he was with
Scotland, he could not but feel a deep interest in a question
which involved their dearest privileges as a people. It was
' lamentable to see the vast difference that subsisted in this ad-
vanced age of civilization between the state of Scotland and
England, in point of popular rights. He thought it impos-
i sible for the English House of Commons to refuse extending to.
k their Scotch brethren the same privileges enjoyed by their con-
stituents.

The LORD ADVOCATE said, that the people of Scotland
were satisfied with their present state; and it therefore became
the House to pause before they forced upon that country a
change of system contrary to their taste, and contrary to the
express articles of the Act of Union. The Gentlemen of Eng-
land could not perhaps so well understand how the system
Could go on well in Scotland, because it was not founded on
popular principles and institutions. The fact, he admitted,
was so. The system was founded on property ; it went on
exeeedingly well as such ; anti on that ground there was no
reason to change it. Hut how, he asked, did it happen that
the Scotch people had not sent one single petition to that House
although their attention had been called to the subject for the
last three years by the Noble Lord's motions, or promised'
motions ? Let those Gentlemen who thought no good could
spring from such a system as that under which Scotland was
governed, look how Scotland managed her tithes, her poor laws,
and her game laws.—(Hear, hear !)—He begged of those who
cried down his native country, to look at these things, and
take a lesson. He hoped the House would not allow itself to
suppose that this question had no connection with Parliament-
ary Reform. From the experience which he had of former oc-
casions, he was convinced that if this motion were granted, it
would be used in aid of the general question of Parliamentaryßeform. He would not go th
rtherinto detail than to observe,
that according to the Noble Lord's own system, he must in-
volve himself in difficulties, as to the limitation and valuation
of land, almost insurmountable. •
Lord MILTON gave his support to the motion of his Noble
Friend, as one, which affecting Scotland in the inrPortant
point of Representation, was important and interesting to
England. He should rather desire to discourage that disposi-
tion which had somewhat manifested itself in the House, to
treat this as a Scotch question, affecting Scotch interests, and
requiring Scotch advocates only. It was, in his opinion, essen-
tially an English question, and as such he hoped the Eng-
lish Gentlemen would regard it, and treat it in their votes.
Lord (ILENORCH V joined his Noble Friend who had just
sat down in hoping that the Gentlemen of England would con-
sider his countrymen as entitled to their consideration in a
question so closely connected with their vital interests. The
Scotch people wanted nothing but fair and equal representation,
and such, he hoped, they were destined to obtain, if not now,
on some future occasion.

Lord A. HAMILTON briefly replied.
The House then divided ; the numbers were—
For the Motion . - - 117
For the previous Question - 1152
Majority --95
The other Resolutions were then put, and negatived without
a division.
Lord MILTON said, it was a satisfaction to know some.
thing had been gained by the debate. The people of Scotland
would now have some hope of Reform.
Sir J. SHBRIO lIT, who had been locked out during the
division, took that opportunity of declaring he supported the
resolutions of his Noble Friend.
Mr. WILLIAMS, in the absence of the lion. Baronet, the
Member for Westminster, gave notice that the Hon. Baronet,
on Friday the 12th of this month, intended to bring forward a
motion, respecting the Enquiry into the conduct of the Sheriff
of Dublin.