The Sun.
London, England, 1840-07-18 00:00:00

NEWSPAPER STAMPS.

Sir ROBERT PEEL wished to put a question
to Ministers with regard to newspaper stamps.
The returns of those stamp 3 were now periodically
published, and sppeals were made by each newspaper
to the quantity of stamps taken out, for the purpose of
showing that particular newspapers offered the best
mode of advertising. It was of great importance that
the should be made acquainted with the num-
bers published by each newspaper, if such an object
could be effected. He believed, however, that some
newspapers were in the practice of exchanging their
stamps at the Stamp-office to a considerable amount. The
returns, therefore, should show the number of stamps so
changed, and if they did not do so they would offer
hut a fallacious proof of thecirculationot each newspaper.
The Right Hon. Gentleman would do much to prevent
the ill effects of any misrepresentation which might occur
by specifying the proportion of stamps actually used by
each paper. He (Sir R. Peel) had received several
communications from newspapers upon the subject, and
be etas desirous of knowing whether tai© Chancellor of
the Exchequer proposed. to make such an alteration as
would remove the ground of complaint.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
sail that he also had received communications on the
subject, but he thought that the evil was more imagi-
nary than real.
Mr. KEMBLE begged leave again to ask the Noble
Lord (Lord J. Russell) what Bills be intended to bring
on to-morrow.

Lord J. RUSSELL'S answer was not heard in the
gallery.
Col. SIBTIIORP said that it made no difference
to him what Bills the Noble Lord chose to bring on to-
morrow, for ha was determined to oppose every one of
ti.ern.—(Checrs and laughter.)
Mr. AGLION BY asked if there was any objection
to a return of the instructions given to Mr. Crauford.
respecting the inquiring into the regulations of York
Castle ?
Mr. FOX 'MAULE said that the instructions were
only verbal.

Mr. LABOUGHERE said that he had been erro-
nzrously reported in respect to what he had said in the
discussion upon the Customs Act. The alteration which
he had stated as intended to be made in the duty up-.n
mustardseed was (through error) represented to be
upon mustard flour.

Col. PERCIVAL moved for a new writ for the
Western Division of the county of Surrey, in the room
of the Hon. W. J. Percival, now a Peer of the realm.

ASSESSED TAXES.

In answer to a question from Mr. MACLEAN,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said that the new survey was not intended to increase
the rating upon the shops and warehouses of manufac-
turers. In the case of coach-makers, there would be
no increase, except when the dwelling-house was a part
of the manufactory.
In answer to a question from Mr. MUNTZ,

Ti'e ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he could not
with certainty fix a day for the Rating of Stock in
Trade Bill. The third reading stood upon the orders
for Monday, but it depended very much upon the num-
ber of questions which might be asked whether it would
come on upon that night or not.—(Hear, and laughter:

FACTORY INSPECTORS.
On the Order of the Day being read for a Committee
of SupplY,
Mr. FIELDEN moved that a Select Committee be
appointed to inquire further into certain disclosures made
to the Committee on Mills and Factories, by Mr.
Stuart, Inspector of Factories, on the 23d day of June
instant, and by Mr. Beal, Superintendent of Factories,
the
day following, as to their employment in other
matters than those assigned to them by the authority of
Parliament ; and to ascertain how far the Inspectors
and Superintendents of Factories have been employed
by the Government in the capacity of political spies.
The Hon Member proceeded at some length to read
the evidence given before the Committee, and also
several letters, for the purpose of showitN that parties
were authorised by the Government to act as political
spies in factories. The Act under which they were ap-
pointed, and which it was their.ng duty to carry intoa
bet
effcct, did not authorize their
employed in such
manner. He would not hold any communication with
men so degraded, and he considered the Government
which employed them on such
w were services were equally de-
graded, and ought to bo scouted by all good and well-
thinking men If those men so employed, how
were they to know that the Police, thee poor-law Com-
missioners, and their Assistant Commissioners--_
An HON. MEMBER—The Commander-in-Chief and
Officers.—( Laughter.)
Mr. FIELDEN—How were they to knowt hat the
whole system of centralization was not intendedo as
one system of espionage ? He fully believed thatt the
riots at Todmorden were chargeable upon the system,
hateful as it was. The lion. Member concludesdell7;
putting his motion into the hands of the Speaker. -
General JOHNSON seconded the motion. No
harm, but much good would be done by the appoint-
ment of the Committee. If his Hon. Colleague could
prove his allegations, he ought to be allowed to do so.
If he could not, then the Government would clear its
character from a foul charge.

Mr. F. MAULE felt that he would have to rktain
the House but a very short time from public business
in defending the Government from the charge brought
against them by the Hon. Member. It was certainly
a very grave charge, if the Hon. Member was able to
prove it. But all the proof he offered was some whisper-
ing heard in the cloisters of the House of Commons,
and a private and confidential letter, addressed, upon
duty, by the Superintendent of Factories to his under
officer. How that letter came into the hands of the
Hon. Member, he (Mr. F. Maule) did not know—if
through any breach of confidence upon the part of any
public officer, he was sure the House would repudiate it
at once—if through any other means, he would only say
that he (Mr. F. Maule) would much rather that it had
been used by the Hon. Member than by him.—(Hear,
hear.) He would state the facts of the case. The
House was well aware of the duties to be performed
by the Superintendent and Inspectors of Fac-
tories—that it naturally brought them into contact
and rendered them well acquainted with the situation of
the operative classes. Now, he did not hesitate to
avow that the instructions to them were to keep the
Government acquainted from time to time with the
state of those classes, not with respect to their political
feelings, but as to the whole state of the manufacturing
population of the country, as to their distresses or their
prosperity ; in fact, of every incident they as a body
were visited with, and that in ord(,r that the Govern.
ment should be acquainted with the wants and necessi-
ties, with the true condition of a large mass of the po-
pulation, to which no Government should ever be in-
different.—(Hear, hear.) That such a proceeding
should ever have been tortured into instructions that
those inspectors were to be placed in the disgraceful
position of political spies, could not have entered the
mind of any other Hon. Member of the House ; but
it was well known that he was not sparing in
heaping his calumnies upon public officers, whose
offices he disliked, for the mere purpose of injuring
them ; he trusted that it would on this occasion have as
little effect as some former ones. It was fortunate he
was enabled to state that during the whole disturbed
time of Chartism in Scotland there had not been one
meeting at which any one illegal act had been com-
mitted. There had not been one Chartist prosecution
throughout Scotland. The Lord Advocate's duty had
so far been pleasant that he had not been called upon
to restrain any public meeting, or institute one prose-
cution for Chartist violence—the good sense of the
people of that country had enabled them to free them-
selves from the lures of the demagogues who would
have misled them. True there was to have been a meeting
in Dundee, and Mr. O'Connor was to have been there, end

it might be possible that the superintendent should unite
to his officer that " there is to be a meeting, and that
Mr. O'Connor is to be present, write me and tell me
what happens at that meeting." Could anything be more
prudent than that a Government, having such means of
information in their power, should desire their officer to
keep them acquainted with what was happening under
their own observation ? According to the principles of

the Hon. Member that Government would' be the best
who knew least of the condition of the governed—an
Inspector-General of a district ought to rechive no re-
ports of what was the condititin of his district from his
officers ; nor ought Magistrates at Quarter Sessions re-
ceive any reports as to the state of their county. The
Hon. Member professed a great love to the Factory
Act. It appeared to him (Mr. F. M.) that he had
very little interest in the well-working of that Act
while he tried to brand the officers appointed
to carry it into effect as spies—political spies.
It was very easy to cast aspersions upon the
character of gentlemen, but not so easy to remove
them again : the impression, once made, often re-
mained. The Hon. Gentleman then would tiave much
to answer to himself for, in putting forth statements—
unfounded statements, deeply affecting the character of
gentlemen—if unfortunately they made any unforeseen
impression, anything like insult was offered to any of
them in the discharge of their duty. He begged to
inform the Hon. Member that had any one of these
gentlemen had been directed to employ himself in the
degrading way imputed to them by him, had he been
so ordered, there was not one of them but would have
refused the commission, and would rather have resigned
his office than have so employed himself.—(Hear.)
One word with regard to what had fallen from the

lion. Gantlctnan as tn, the conviction of Chartists

having been obtained by means of spies. if that were
so there would have beLn no difficulty in ascertaining it,
as all the trials had taken place in open Court, and
until the present moment he had never heard a whisper
that any of the prties who prosecuted, were connected
with the Government in any way as Poor-law Commis-
sioners, Factory Inspectors, or aoy other public office.
He thought that those who watched over the con-
dition of the working classes were more their
friends than those who endeavoured to impress
upon their minds that the Government wished to

oppress them. They were certainly more their
friends than those men who, having large bodies of ope-
ratives under their control, and taking offence at
some law, and endeavouring to prevent its being car-
ried into effect, shut up their factories and mills, and
turn these operatives loose for the purpose of opposing
and thwarting that la,v—( Hear, hear)—and by that
proceeding running them into those . acts of violence
which it was the object of the Government to rescue
them from.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He should most

certainly object to the Committee, because it could
do no good, and no results could follow from such
an inquiry. Considering the manner in which
evidence was taken before these Committees, from par-
ties who were not upon their oaths; and who were not
bound by anything they might choose to say—who
were, in fact, at liberty to assert any falsehood that
suited their purpose, prosided they told it consistently
and without prevarication—( Hear, hear)—consider-
lag all that, he did not think that the appointment
of such a Committee would conduce to the well-
working of the Factory Act, or the interests of
the working classes. He would leave the question to
the public with the full conviction that its good sense
would guide it to a true conclusion ; and even upon the
Hon. Gentleman's own showing, he was satisfied that
the working classes could appreciate as it deserved the
attempt to throw a charge upon gentlemen who in their
official capacity had never shown anything but a sincere
consideration for the prosperity of the working classes,
amongst whom SO much of their time was spent.
Mr. D'ISRAELI said the Hon. Under-Secretary
had admitted that these Inspectors had duties to per-
form for which they were not paid by any vote of a po-
pular assembly. The letter to which the Hon. Member
alluded, and which was marked " confidential," directed
the party " to report weekly any political meetings that
might occur in his district, and to act with secresy and
prudence, so that he might not be suspected of giving in-
formation." Was that a report upon the condition of the
working classes or as to the state of the harvest
(Haar, bear, hear.) He would admit that in
troubled times there were few Governments which
did not employ spies to ascertain the movements
and objects of the disaffected, but he never knew a
Government detected in the very act of emplo)ing
spies, which had the effrontery, with pharisaical
hypocrisy, to assert that it was merely an inquiry into
their distress and prosperity, and into the state of the
harvest.—( Hear, hear.) The allusion of the Hon.
Under-Secretary to itinerant politicians must certainly
have been intended for the wandering Ministers of
State, who offered their congratulations at torch-
light meetings, and which were followed by
an insurrect;on of the people.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
The Hon. Gentleman, casting a hasty glance at the
bench behind him, and seeing the Hon. and Learned
Member for Dublin was not there, warned the House

against persons who strove to excite the passions of
the people. Hon. Members of one party might go
itinerating throughout the country, announcing a ►ra-
tion's regeneration at a shilling a-head, but the poor
devils who Expressed their political sentiments in a
newspaper were for doing so incarcerated in a dungeon.
He trusted the House would support the proposition
of the Hon. Member for Oldham, and as the month
of July was one peculiarly calculated to afford correct
information on " the state of the harvest," he hoped
the Noble Lord, the leader of the House, would agree
to it also.

Lord ASHLEY always objected to a confidential
servant of the Government being subjected to the
cross-examination of a Committee of the House, for
the purpose of extracting from him that which had been
communicated to him by his employers. When his
Hon. Friend used the word " political spies," he pre-
judged the question—(Hear, hear)—and assumed that
all he apprehended had been fully proved. The cause
which he had had for so many years nearest at heart
would be altogether lost, if public prejudice was ex-
cited against the officers employed in the factories, and
there was no word so odious in the manufacturing dis-
tricts as the word spy. He did not believe those gen-
tlemen had been employed, or that the Government
desired to employ them, in any character deserving of that
epithet ; and he hoped the satisfactory defence of the
Government would reach them, which he was sure
would operate on the good sense of the working-classes
with the desired effect.—(Cheers.)
Mr. HINDLEY felt it his duty to speak on the
present occasion. He agreed with the Hon. Member
for Oldham in many of his opinions respecting the
Factory Bill and central organization ; but, at the same
time, he must say, he thought the Hon. Member had
not acted judiciously in bringing the question before
the House, and he regretted that he should have felt
it his duty to do so. He would ask the Hon. Member
whether the Government should not obtain information
p et chte
their
o prethjudicesarvest,
rtehjen
dhiaerevse, s
fte,
eol
irn tglsi satna
dt e
generalof the
levi
et irike n s
areess,
the
felt
it lion.
his
Member sat on the
condition ?--(1-1ear, hear.) It could not be denied
that it was their
Pouty to
or-law domntot t
so.
'he n
duty to send persons to investigate the condition of the
These might be called Poor-law
poor in Bedfordshire. r
spies.—(Hear, hear.) Now he would ask, did the
Government send persons on purpose to all the northern
districts to attend public meetings, and report their opi-
nions? What would be the effect ? Why those
people, being paid servants, would feel themselves bound
to give their employers a quid pro quo, and would feel

it their duty to tell the Government that speeches of an I
illegal nature had been uttered, whether such speeches
had been uttered or no. He would ask the Hon.
Member for Oldham, if the inspectors or superin-
tendents of factories had not acted with due
regard to the welfare cf the factory children ?
(Cheers.)
They might be considered as the guardians
of the poor people in those districts, and if the Go-
vernment made any inquiries into the condition of the
poor, they were certainly the hest channels through
which they could be made. He hoped hie Hon. Friend
would withdraw his motion, but if he pressed it he
would suggest to him the propriety of making it more
extensive, and extending it to Magistrates and Poor-
law Commissioners, as well as to factory inspectors.
Mr. M. PHILLIPS hoped his Hon. Friend would
withdraw his motion. If lie thought that the Govern-
ment had descended to such meanness as to send poli-
tical spies among the people for the purpose of goading
them into a violation of the law, he should not support
them in such conduct. But no such charge had been
brought against them, and he believed that no such
charge could be brought against them. He would urge
his Hon. Friend not to carry his motion to a division.
He was confident the Government would not attempt to
obtain information in
an improper way ; he entirely ac-
quitted them of any intention of employing any parties
as spies. Every Government ought to be anxious to
obtain information as to the state and condition of the
people, and they would be culpable if they did not avail
themselves of every means in their power. He was
surprised at the course pursued by the Hon. Member
for Maidstone only a few evenings since, in the debate
on Dr. Bowring's Reports. He had stated that it was
the duty of the Government to obtain all such informa-
tion as that obtained by Dr. Bowring from the Con-
suls, for it could be obtained without expense, and now
he blamed them for obtaining information from the
Factory Inspectors, instead of sending persons spe-
cially•for the purpose of obtaining it. He agreed with
the Noble Lord opposite that if they wished to injure
the operation of the Factory Act he knew no more ef-
fectual mode of doing it than by throwing out imputa-
tions of that kind on those who were appointed to carry
that Act into effect. He wished to see that Act carried
out fully and fairly, and would not wish to see it got rid
of by a side wind ; but if these imputations were to be
cast upon the inspectors he agreed with the Noble Lord
that it would be better to abrogate the law at once.
Mr. HUME thought that the bringing forward this
question was likely to injure the operation of the Factory
Act, but as the question had been brought forward
something more must be afforded in the way of explana-
tion. If there was anything likely to do mischief to the
factory inspectors it was the leaving them in a suspicious
state. Nov, by the statements of the Hon. Member
for Oldham they were placed certainly in a ticklish
situation. These officers had been appointed to super-
intend the operation of the Factory Act, and so cautious
had been the Legislature on this subject that the in-
struetions to the Factory Commissioners were the only
instructions to any Commissioners which had been di-
rected to be laid before Parliament. He wished his
Hon. Friend had been able to deny that the letter which
had been read was a genuine letter ; but here was a
letter from a factory officer in London to another in
the country, marked confidential, and asking for secret
communications not regarding the factory children, hut
regarding the state of the people, and their public meet-
ings.
__

-An HON. MEMBER—And why not ?
Mr. HUME—Because it was ❑o part of his duty.
—(Cheers.) It created a suspicion that these persons
were in the habit of meddling with what did not belong
to their department. He asked his Hon. Friend for
further disclosures. Was that a solitary letter written
incautiously, or were similar instructions sent sent to all
the Factory Inspectors? If it were a mere
casual letter, although he might regret that
such a letter should have baen written incautiously,

yet he should consider it as a matter of no moment.
But they had no right to employ the Factory Cornelis-
sioners to interfere in the public political meetings of
the people. They had ample means of obtaining any
information they might require on such subjects from
the Magistrates and the police ; and had such a letter
been written to them, he should have considered that
the Government had been only doing their duty. But
the Factory Inspectors had a specific duty to perform,
and ought not to be called on to perform any other.
Mr. FOX MAULE said that he had already stated
all the instructions that had been given to the Factory
Inspectors. What had passed between the Inspectors
and the Superintendents he was unable to state.
Sir ROI3EAT PEEL would be always ready to
make great allowances for the exertions of the Govern-
ment in defence of the public peace.—(Hear, hear.)
He wed knew the absolute necessity which all Govern-
ments must feel of becoming acquainted. with the de-
, signs of those who might not in the first place have
meditated mischief, but who, in times of public excite-
ment and of great general distress, might, under the
influence of agitation, or goaded by poverty, at
length be betrayer. into excesses.—(Hear, hear.)
Who could say what might be the advaatage
of having had previous information in the case of the
riots at Bristol, at. Notting-I,lam, and lastly at Newport ?
With such information, all the evils which afterwards
followed might probably have been averted. He did
not, therefore, hesitates to say-'—and the doctrine was
not now so unpopular as it used to be in former times
.—but even if it were so, he did not hesitate to say that
he should feel it to be his duty to endeavour to obtain
in times of popular excitement any information which
might enable him to take precautions against
a disturbance of the public peace.—(Hear, hear.)
He was persuaded that those who might be most
disposed to declaim against any attempt to obtain such
information, would be the loudest in condemning a Mi-
nister who, through his neglect, would allow th coun-
try to be thrown into a state of civil disturbance. The
debate only made him feel how exceedingly similar was
the conduct of all Governments under certain circum-
stances. All felt, when the responsibility was placed on
them of preserving public order, how absolutely
necessary it was to procure detailed informa-
tion on the state of the country.—( Hear, hear,)
There was another question, however, as to the means
used of obtaining such information, and those means
might sometimes be blameable. The letter to which re-
ference had been made directed a public officer to ob-
tain information as to any proceedings in his district
relative to the assemblages of the workmen, or of
Chartist?, er of any other parties who might disturb the
public peace. Now it might be doubted whether it
was wise to confide that duty to Factory Commis-
sioners ; and perhaps some other expedient might have
be employed on the occasion. That, however, was but
a question of prudence. His doubts did not arise as to
the propriety of obtaining information, hut as to whether
the particular instrument through which it was obtained
had been well chosen. The gentleman in question might
not have been blameable in the course he had pursued.
He might have questioned certain parties as to what
had passed at public meetings, without being liable to
censure. He (Sir R. Feel) thought that the distinction
shoield have been drawn between getting information
from parties, and emplo)ing those parties to mix with the
wounlodt
havet hink
recoursethnt any
t to
Government
people and encourage them to acts of disaffection, in
order that information as to their intentions might
thereby be . Ile
country did
proceedings so blameable as that to which he had just
alluded. He was aware that imputations of the kind
had been thrown out against Viscount Castlereagh
and Lord Sidmouth, but he was persuaded they bad
been wholly unfounded. He believed that a spy or an in-
former had never been employed in this country in the
manner to which he alluded. With regard to the motion
then before the House, he thought that Parliament could
lo nothing more foolish than to concede to it. He would
be ready to make every allowance for the conduct of those
who were responsible for the public peace. At the same
time, he should say that he did not think Hon. Gentle-
men opposite could recollect, without some little remorse,
the course they had taken on former occasions—in the
year 1820, for instance, when there had been some danger
of a disturbance of the public tranquillity, and the same
necessity as at present for taking precautions for the pre-
servation of the peace. He remembered that at that pe-
riod the conduct of the Government was denounced by
the Opposition night after night, because, in the exe-
cution of their duty, they had taken means to se-
cure the tranquillity of the country, and had endea-
voured to obtain that information which Honour-
able Gentlemen
Opposite had lately endeavoured to
acquire through doubtful instruments, namely, the
Factory Commissioners. Hon. Gentlemen opposite bad
since had the experience of office—(A laugh)—and he
hoped they would profit by that experience,
and that they
would hereafter take the same course with respect tot their
political opponents was
mto
'ding
to allowth
with regard to them;w
disaffected,ee-
feat, by all legitimate means, the designs of the
ready t
and to provide for the safety of those who
.
dwere to theire
obey the laws, and who, while they rename loyal
haincdh
thathe (wSaair R. Peel)_
Sovereign, thought themselves entitled to
protection which _ Government should, under receive
s
circumstances, always afford.—(Hear, hear, hear. )
rethaart
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he would not have
taken any part in the debate had not the Hon. Gentleman
( Mr. Fielden) confounded two things entirely distinct,
namely, the attempt to obtain certain information, and the
means by which it was sought to be acquired. The Hon.
Member for Manchester had said that be did not believe
that the Government had intended to goad the people into
insurrection, but he.( Lord John Russell) did not believe
that any Government in this country could make such an
attempt, and that the present Government was, in that re-
spect, on a footing with all others. The question, how-
ever, as to the prudence of obtaining information was a
very different one.-. 4 Hear.) The Honourable Gentle-
man who had brought forward the motion had confounded
the two things, and bad used very unnecessarily the
term " political spy." He thought that term was too in-
discriminately made use of through the country, as it was
applied to any party who might, under any circumstances,
give information as to what might have occurred at a public
meeting or elsewhere. The present case was that of a gen-
tleman who had been verbally desired to give general infor-
mation with respect to the state of the country. 'Cho
Gentleman might, perhaps, not have strictly con-
fined himself to his instructions on the subject.
He thought that it was a properly legitimate source of in-
formation to the Government. Look to those gentlemen
who were especially employed for the purpose of observing
what occurred in particular districts. It was frequently

found that exaggerated statements of the amount of num-
bers at public meetings were sent forth. On some occa-
sions of that kind the Government had learned, from per- II ME CIRC LIIT—II F.RT
sons of sound practical information, that a meeting which
S.C3 upon C:the
was represented as formidable, was composed only of a icor, acid t
can- list at
s
utinteresting i
few boys.—(Haa..r, hear.) It also occurred frequently
eater
that the Lord-L: gave'
cf the, eutenant and the Magistrates special jury case on
stoen o, rli
nisi
information to the Government ; and so far as nocity evemeg.
gr. portion
Gould understand thr. Bon. Gentleman, those funetioaarics
should be considered as political spies.--( Hear, bear.)
There was another m vans of obtaining information which
was open to the stron6,est objection. He meant the sys-
tem which was followed in 1817, when persona were ein.
ploycd who, not having- any official employment, made
themselves acquainted with the parties, and represented
themselves as friends of the confederacy.—( Hear, hear.)
Those men, being themselves of the very worst character,
were the most dangerous intstruments a Government could.
employ.—( Hear, hear.) It might be that such men, in-.
stead of doing what the security of the State might re-
quire, should, for the sake calf obtaining a larger reward, in-
cite their confederates to the most pernicious course.--
Hear, hear.) In the trials which arose out of the occur-
' ences in 1817, it was proved that such persons were so em-
ployed,and that they incited' people to violence assuring them
at the same time that th..ty would be supported by similar
risings in other parts of tl re country. It was quite a dif-
ferent thing for a person b ping officially employed by the
Government in a particular duty, to inform the Govern-
ment of what.he observed fat the district in which he was
engaged, and for a person to be sent as a pretended con-
federate into a secret soCiet y to obtain a knowledge to
incite them to more dangeroul 3 designs.
Sir R. PEEL explained,. He had only intended to
say in reference to the case tal Thistlewood's conspiracy,
that circumstances might oc cur in which a GoWernment
could not refuse to receive tb c information of a person who
had insinuated himself into a confederacy.—(Hear.)
Mr. WAKLEY said no • person could deny that a Go-
vernment had a right to c btain information as to the
actual condition of the country by any means that came
within its reach. He was krurprised to hear the Right
Hon. Baronet near him ( Sir R. Peel) say that the cha-
racter of a spy was not at pr esent so unpopular in this
country as it used to be.

Sir R. PEEL—What I. said was, that the character of
a spy was not so much in iiisfavour with the Noble Lord
opposite, and his friends, a ; it used to be.—(Laughter.)
Mr. WAKLE Y believe• i that the character of a spy
was as unpopular in tin Is country as it ever was.
He believed, notwithstandin g what had been said by the
Right Hon. Baronet, that a. spy was just as odious in the
present day as formerly—(t rear)—and he trusted, not-
withstanding any sophistry, th at such a character would be
always held in detestation. He had yet to learn, how-
ever, that where persons wer a employed by the Govern-
ment, and had the Government t money in their pockets, they
were entitled to do acts eta air than those which belonged
to their office. He thought that the course which had
been adopted on the presen t occasion, though with the
best intentions, was one that .was pregnant with danger,
which the public would not sr enction, and propriety justify.
Mr. BROT HE RTQN th ought that the Hon. Member
for Oldham ought to have bad a better foundation for
making the serious charge he had done, than the copy of
a letter the possession of whi ,ch was rather mysterious.
Mr. MUNTZ begged of his Hon. Friend, the Member
for Oldham, to withdraw his. motion, as he felt bound to
say he had not produced an i ground far t. He believed
that no man would deny the t he was as anxious for the in-
terests of the working-clasu as as any man either in or out
of that House, but he d:id not t think that the motion of the
lion. Member was at all cedet lated for their interest. He for
one thought that it was the d uty of the Government to take
care to have information of: .all that was going on in the
country, and he had no he sithtion in saying the right Hon.
Baronet at the time he (Ik tr. Muntz) was agitating, had a
knowledge of all that he was doing.—( Hear, hear.) In
his opinion, in the present instance, the Government had
not committed themselves, and therefore he trusted the
Hon. Member would withd.,,ew the motion.

Mr. EWA RT thought i t very unfortunate that the Go-
vernment had employed 1:11 a superintendants of factories
in the way they had been, because it must necessarily
damage their characters E:s factory superintendents, and
break that confidence which. ought to exist between them
and the working public.
Mr. SLANEY rose, E taaMst loud cries of " Oh, oh,"
" Divide.")--He said he could not agree with the Hon.
Members who bad precede xi him. They, in a time of dis-
order, would not be satit fed with the information given
by the Magistracy or the p: trochial clergy. There was no
regular police force—wbe. :e, then, could they find any
chlrinel for obtaining the i nformation so good as officers
whose motives could not t e suspected, and who were so
eminently qualified to afford it. He thought the explana-
tions offered quite satisfacetory, and hoped the motion
would be withdrawn.
Mr. FIELDEN then rost to reply, but was interrupted
by
The SPEAKER, wh.o said, that having moved an
amendment, he was not c -.titled to a reply.
Mr. FIELDEN said a few words in a very low tone,
when

Strangers were ordere d to withdraw. The House
divided. and there appeare

For the amendment . ll
Against it
Majority
We understood tho Co nmaittee of Supply was post-
poned on account of the Taro -.,ness of the hour.
On our re-enterinc,, the gallery, we found
Mr. W. ATT WOO ;_-) e xpressing his hope that the
Noble Sccrezary for the Colt )Lies would not press the third
reading of the Poor-law Co., -omission Bill that night, or fix
it for Saturday. It had pass.ld its other stages without dis-
cussion.

Lord JOHN RUSSE.Li. said the present Bill only
prolonged the Commission 'or another year, and he under-
steed all opposition was wit! !drawn.
After a short desultory cc ,nversation,
Mr. W. ATTWOOD ai ;in rose to speak, and being
met with cries of " Spoke, poke," he said if such was the
objection to his proceeding lie had only to more that the
House do now adjourn.

Loyd PA LMgIZSTON s i:d it was quite obvious that
no public business, or bthz;ness of any sort could be
c ;riled on, if any Hon. Get tleman, because he was pre-
vented from making three c.r four speeches, against the
rules of the House, moved the • adjournment of the House.
Mr. M'LE AN said the Bill was one of the greatest im-
portance to the country, and ac, ding to the Noble Lord's
own admission it should have be en brought is at an earlier
pericd of the Session.
Lord J. RUSSELL wished', to have bad the Bill passed
at a tine when there was a fulll attendance of Ministers. If
it was not road a third time to- night it could not be brought
forward for some days, other bi .ssness being fixed for next
week.

Mr. WAKLEY said no one objected more to the Poor_
lax Bill than himself, but as the subject was to be fully
discussed in the n,!xt Session, he hoped the Hon. Member
would withdraw his opposition.
Mr. W. Arr WOOD felt it his duty to persevere in
his amendment,
The House divided, when there L•ppeared—
For the motion
For the amendment
Majority

On.our return,
Mr. FIE LDEN moved that the debate should be ad-
journed.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he should have no ob-
j,rction to take it this day (Saturday), but could not post-
pone it longcr.
Mr. ELLIOT said, when the third reading of the Bill
was moved, there was a good attendance on the opposite
side, but that the leaders had since all left. There were,
however, a sufficient number present to discuss the Bill,
and he should therefore object to the adjournment.
Mr. D'ISRAELI supported the adjournment.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the Bill met with the
support of the great majority of both sides of the
House. The attempt was, therefore, vain to defeat by
delay the passing of the Bill. At this period of the session
it was impossible to avoid bringing on business at a late
hour of the evening.
Mr. WOLVERLEY ATTWOOD denied that the
Bill was approved of by a majority on his side of the House
In reply to a question from an HON. MEMBER,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he bad no objection to
take the Bill on Tuesday, but that the House must sit on
Tuesday morning, in order to enable Orders of the Day to
have precedence.
After a few words from Col. PERCIVAL,
Mr. WILLIAMS said that he was opposed to the Bill,
but he felt convinced that nothing could be obtained by
delay, and he hoped the Hon. Member would withdraw his
motion. _ _

Mr. WAK LEY earnestly and cordially urged the Hon.
Member to withdraw his motion if it were only to get rid
of the notice out of the paper.
Lord INGESTRIE thought the Government had no
claim on the Members on his side the House after the ob-
struction he had offered to the Bill of the Noble Lord, the
member for North Lancashire. He thought they had been
wasting their time during the whole of the early part of the
evening, and if they could do nothing better, they had
better shut up shop, and go into the country. He should
have no objection to the postponement to Tuesday.
Lord J. RUSSELL then moved the adjournment
of the debate to twelve o'clock on Tuesday, which was
agreed to.

INTELL [GENCE.

'FORD, FRIDAY.
this assize are of the
here was not a single
4bfuger had disposed
,inezi on Thurs.

CROWN COURT.,
Before Mr. Ban.'"
John Page, " an•ed 29, and l'.villiam remple, aged 25,
were indicted for being armed with guns - in the night time
rzpoli the premises of Sir Henry Metlx, Ba rt., at Cheshunt,
in pursuit of game.
The prisot.c., Page was also ickdietl I for feloniously
assaulting and beating one of the keepers.
Mr. Dowling and Mr. Marsh conauctet Ithe prosecution.
It appeared from the evidence that on the .night of the 10th
February, the keepers hcerir;g guns flt?‘lin ono of the
preserves, went in pursuit of the parties, rum upon going
into the wood, they found rcveral m, to, who im,-nediately
commenced an attack upon them, and a 4violent struggle en-
sued, during which one of the keepers was most severely
beaten. The prisoners were clearly proved to have been
some of the party concerned iu the outrage, and it was
stated that they were connected with a desperate gang of
poachers, who have for a long time infested this neigh-
bourhood.

The jury found the prisoners guilty.
Mr. Baron GURNEY then sentenced Page to be trans-
ported for ten years, and Temple to be imprisoned end
kept to hard labour for eighteen months, a portion of the
time to be passed in solitary corsnement.
CUTTING AND WOUNUING.—Thomas Arnold (16), was
indicted for feloniously stabbing Witham. Barker, with in-
tent to kill and murder him.
In other counts the intent was laid f;o be to do the pro-
secutor some grievous bodily harm.
Mr. Wordsworth defended the prisoner.
The prosecutor deposed that he was a labourer, and
resided at Hitchin; lie had known the prisoner from a
child ; on the 20th of June the prisoner was playing at
bowls, and witness was looking on, and they had some
words about betting on the game, rind after they got up
the yard they had a fight, and the prisoner called out for
his knife, and pulled a knife out of his pocket, and
ran at him ; the people advised him to put the knife up,
and he did so, and they had another round or two, and the
prisoner suddenly cut him down the face with the knife ;
he did not see the knife when, he cut him, but the prisoner
Is as the only person near him at the time.
Cross-examined—The prisoner is 16 years o'd, I am
32 years old. I fought with him notwithstanding. I did
not knock the prisoner down, or strike him before he
struck me. Did not hit him before we began to fight.
Got him down, and we both fell together, but he cut me
while we were both standino. up. I believe we were both
in fault, and I may have said so to several people. I did
not kick the prisoner while he was down.
Mary Gray deposed that she heard a. scuffle about
twelve o'clock on the night in question, and she heard
Barker say, " Put up ysur knife, and I'll fight
you" ; the prisoner put up his knife, and witness per-
suaded him to go home like a good boy. Prisoner
snatched away from her, and went back to Barker, and
they had one more round, and Barker fell on the top of
Arnold, and struck him several blows, and then kicked
him on the head, and said he would kill the —. Wit-
ness told Barker he should not kick the boy, and Arnold
crawled away, and shortly afterwards he stabbed Barker
in the face, and she saw the blood run from the wound.
It bled a great deal. Did not know what became of Ar-
nold afterwards.

Cross-examined.— Arnold offered to take Barker home ;
Barker kicked Arnold several times, and he called out for
help ; did not hear Arnold say he was afraid Barker would
kill him; Barker did threaten to kill him.

Johnson, a watchman, proved that he found the pri-
soner cashing himself at a pond, and took him into cus-
tody ; Barker was with him, and when he saw the prisoner
he said he would kill him, and made a blow with his fist at
him, and fell in the attempt to do so.
Mr. Mon3ell, a surgeon,-st :ted that the wound on the
prosecutor's check was half an inch deep in the middle,
and about five inches long ; there was also a wound in his
which was rather deeper than the other, and about
the same length ; the wounds were severe.
Crass-mc.rnined.—The prosecutor went out in two
days; was viid 2e. 63. for his attendance on that night,
and the case was afterward; placed in the infirmary of the
town.

Mr. Wonnswonnt addressed the Jury.
The LEARNED JUDGE summed up the evidence, and the
Jury found the prisoner guilty of assaulting the prosecu-
tor, with intent to do him some grievous bodily harm.
Charles Jeffery, aged nineteen, was indicted for felo•
piously and maliciously stabbing George Brown, with in-
tent to kill and murder, or to do him some grievous bodily
harm.
Mr. MARSH defended the prisoner.

The prosecutor deposed that he was a labourer, and re-
sided at Hitchin. On the 20th of June, about eleven at
night, he was standing in the alley where he resided, and
while he was there the prisoner came by and asked him
what he did there ? And he said it was no business of
is, and he had better go on. He pushed the prisoner on,
and he stepped back arid told him that he was an old --,
and he would rip his -- guts out. They separated at
that time, but shortly afterwards he went into the priso-
ner's mother's house, and as he nas coming out he met
prisoner. He asked him why he struck him? and at the
same instant he made a thrust at him, and he afterwards
round that he was wounded.

Cross-examined—He was not drunk ; he bad not been
drinking at all that day ; the servant of the house near
where he was standing came out and told him to go away ;
he had always told the same story.
Mr. MARSH here requested that the deposition made by
the witness before the Magistrate should be read. Upon
this being done it appeared that the prosecutor had told a
somewhat different story at that time.
Cross-examination continued—He had sworn positively
he was not in liquor at the time.
Mr. Thomas Smith deposed that he resided at Hitchin,
and on the night in question he accompanied the prose-
cutor, and wnen they met the prisoner be immediately
rushed towards Brown, and the latter exclaimed that he
was stabbed.

Cross-examined—The prosecutor was not in liquor at
the time; he appeared to be afraid that the boy would do
bins some injury.
Mary Anne Brown, the daughter of the prosecutor,
proved that she heard the prison:a make use of the threats
that had been mentioned against her father. She advised
him to go home and be quiet, and he said he would not,
hut he would go and get his brother to knock her father's
head off.

Cross-examined_The prisoner was crying very much,
but he did not complain of her father having ill-treated him,
Mr. Smith, surgeon, of Hitchin, proved that he was
called upon to attend to the prosecutor, and he found that
he had received a fractured wound in the groin. It wai
about half an inch deep, and was on a very dangerous part
of the body. He saw the prisoner the same evening, and
he told him that Brown had knocked him down twice, and
he admitted he had stabbcn him, and said he would do it
again under similar circumstances.

Cross-examinede:-The prosecutor appeared to me to be
labouring under the effects of liquor.
Mr. Manso having addressed the Jury, and called Spen-
cer, the constable orllitchin, who gave the prisoner a good
character.
Baron GURNEY briefly recapitulated the evidence, and
the Jury returned a verdict of guilty of assaulting the
prosecutor with intent to do him grievous bodily harm.
John Lee, (27) was indicted for the manslaughter of
John Lee, now deceased, by stt iking him with his fists,
and casting and throwing him to the ground, thereby
giving him divers mortal wounds, bruises, and ruptures, of
which he languished and died.
Mr. WORDSWORTIT defended the prisoner.
John Halsey proved that he knew the prisoner, and the
deceased also, who were drinking together on the Bth of
Mly, and about four o'clock in the afternoon, a quarrel
took place about a bet which ultimately led to a fight, and
they had several " ups and downs." They fought for
half an hour, and the deceased began it. He chucked up
his cap, and said he would fight any man on the ground,
and he did not care which. They had both been drinking.
Iu the last round they both fell to the ground backwards,
and when the deceased got up he was insensible.
Cross-examined—The deceased struck the prisoner
several times before he could get off his jacket.
Thomas Austin gave similar testimony.
Crass-examined—ln the last round the deceased ftll
with his head against the ground, and it rebounded like a
ball. He was insensible directly after that fall.
Mr. Saunders, the surgeon who was called in, proved
that he saw the deceased about six o'clock the same even-
ing and found him insensible, and he continued in that
state till ten &clot kat night when he died. In his opi-
nion the deceased died of a concussion of the brain.
Baron GURNEY here expressed his opinion, that the evi-
denee was insufficient, and directed an acquittal.
Mr. Baron GURNEY then directed that the two pri-
soners who had been convicted of cutting and stabbing,
should be placed at the bar, and his Lordship, addressing
them, said it was really dreadful to see the extent to which
the offence of stabbing now prevailed. Upon the slightest
quarrel the knife was immediately resorted to. It was ne-
cessary, for the protection of society, that the most severe
punishment should be inflicted upon parties who were
convicted of this offence, and, but for the fact of their
being very young, he should have felt it his duty to trans-
port them for the longest period.
The prisoners were then sentenced to be imprisoned
and kept to hard labour, with periods of solitary confine-
ment, for twelve calendar months.
POLICE INTELLIGENCE.

MANSIO:11-7-110USE.
Inspector M'Lean, of the City Police, complained at
the desire of Mr. Harvey, the City Police Commissioner,
against the course pursued at the West London Union, in
Smithfield, with regard to the reception of destitute per-
sons at night. Mr. Thwaites, the Relieving-ofificer of the
City of London Union, in Cannou-street, attended on
the occasion.

The Inspector said that the Commissioner's object in
causing a representation to be made to the Lord Mayor
was, that his Lordship might urge the officers for the ad-
ministration of the poor-law in the City, to provide a pro-
per place for the reception of helpless persons who
wandered in the streets at unseasonable hours, without
having any place in which to rest. One of his officers had
fund a miserable person in the street at three o'clock that
morning, and, according to the directions of the Commis-
sioner, had taken him to the Relieving Overseer in Can-
non street, who stated that the only place of refuge to
which he could send the man, was the workhouse, at
Peckham. It appeared that the man's feet were blistered
with walking, and that he had been refused admission into
one of the City Unions some hours before, and Mr. Thwaites
suggested the propriety of having the case stated to the
Lord Mayor in order that it might be ascertained whether
the West London Union had turned away the object
ithout relief.

The LORD MAYort—l agree with the Commissioner that
there ought to be a place in the City to which the desti-
tute found at night within the Cannon-street district

should be taken by the police, and that it is improper to
consign to station-houses persons not charged with any
offence.
Mr. Tip,vaites the Cannon-street relieving officer, said
that the policc'inan who brought tile poor person to Can-
nen•strcet at the very unseasonable hour of 3 o'clock,
stated that the man had at i 2 o'clock applied for refuge at
the West London Union, where there was accommodation,
but was refused admission. lie (Mr. Thwaites) had no
alternative but to send the applicant to Peckham, distant
as it was, as the union to which he belonged had no work-
house nearer to London.

Inspee'or M'Lean said that many poor people.who wan-
dered in the streets at night were unable to walk, atter the
fatigue of the day, as far as Peckham, and that the misery
of having no home to go to in London was peculiarly felt
by them when the weather was rainy. Besides, the want
of victuals for a day or two was sufficient to deprive a man
of the power of walking to such a distance.
Mr. Booker, the relieving overseer of the East London
Union, said that it was the invariable practice of that
Union to take in any poor person who appeared to be with•
out a home.

The Lorto MAYOR told the Inspector that if a memorial
was drawn up, stating the particulars, and given to him, he
should himself present it to the Court of Aldermen on
Tuesday next, and urge the Court to adopt some plan to
remedy the existing evil.