The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-22 00:00:00

of creating the new Bishopric of Manchester, it was also
determined to unite the sees of Bangor and St. Asaph.
The Hon. Member then proceeded to read from the jour-
nals the debate which had taken place in the beginning
of the session.

Mr. FERRAND—I rise to order. The Hon. Member
had read a part of a debate which had taken place in
this House in the early part of the session.
The SPEAKER said the Hon. Member is clearly out
of order.

Mr. COLLETT said that he would then rest satisfied
with proposing the terms of his motion.
Mr. WAKLEY seconded the motion.
Mr. GREGORY said that he could not consent to the
motion of the Hon. Member until he had taken legal
opinions upon the subject. It was never contemplated
to consolidate the bishoprics, except on the vacancy of
one see, and without the consent of the other. A cor-
respondence bad already taken place upon the subject
with the Bishop of St. Asaph, and no obstacle appeared
to stand in the way of the consolidation.
Mr. COLLETT said that he should persist with the
motion, and take the sense of the House upon it. He
did not see that these sees should be consolidated with-
out the consent of all parties or during their lives.
Sir G. GREY said the Hon. Member had misunder-
stood him, he had said that the consolidation of the sees
could not take place on the vacancy of one without the
consent of the bishop of the other.
Mr. COLLETT—They might perhaps die at the same
time.

Strangers were then ordered to withdraw. But the
motion was ultimately negatived without a division.
SERVICE IN THE ARMY.
On the motion of Colonel THOMAS WOOD returns
were granted of the number of men enlisted for limited
service, since the year 1806. Of the number of men
discharged after the first peribd of service; the number
of men who enlisted for a second period of service; also
the number of men who,, during their first period of
limited service, enlisted for unlimited service. Of the
number of men who enlisted for a third period of service.
Of the amount of bounties, if any, paid to men
men enlisting for a second and third period of service,
or from limited to unlimited service.
On the motion of the LORD ADVOCATE leave
was given to bring in a Bill to regulate the drainage of
lands in Scotland.

ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIONERS.
Mr. HANDLEY wished to ask the question, of which
he had given notice, viz., as to whether there was any
intention on the part of the Government to bring in any
subsequent measure in the event of the proposition for
the regulation of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners
tailing; or whether they would buirei the Act, of William
IV. to fall.

Sir G. GREY said that provision had been made to
save the inconvenience that would be felt in the event of
such a contingency.
BUSINESS FOR TO-MORROW.
Lord MAHON wished to ask the Right Hon. Baronet
at the head of the Home Department what course it was
intended to pursue with respect to to-morrow.
Sir G. GREY believed that the greater part of the
evening would be occupied by the Committee of Supply,
and should that be the case it was not proposed to take
any important debate towards the end of the night.
EDUCATION.
Sir W. CLAY presented seven petitions against the
Government scheme of education, and one in favour
of it.

IMPORT DUTIES.
Mr. HUME wished to know, whether it was the in-
tention of the Government to introduce any Bill this
session to repeal certain anomalies in the import•
laws, which inflicted great injury upon the trade of the
country; and the community at large ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said, in reply to the general
question of the Hon. Member, he had to state that it
was not the intention of the Government to introduce
such a Bill.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME said, then, as the Government had not
made up their minds on the matter he should on Mon-
day specify the laws to which he referred, and repeat
the question.

NATIONAL EDITCATIONe—ADJOURNED
DEBATE.
On the order of the day being read for resuming the
adjourned debate,
Sir W. CLAY rose and said, it was his intention to
support the motion of his Honourable Friend the
member for Finsbury; but he could not do so with•
out stating the reasons which had induced him
to come to that determination. He wished

to guard himself from any misconception as to his views,
as one of the inconveniences of the mode by which this
great question had been brought before the Hoase—
namely, by a resolution for the proposed grant rather
than by a Bill—was, that it could not be so easily
separated into its various divisions and discussed in
detail; therefore Honourable Gentlemen were more
liable to misconstruction. He intended, by his
vote, to express his disapprobation of the Go-
vernment plan; but by that vote he did not mean to
declare his opinion that the State ought not to extend
education among the people ; still less did he intend to
give a vote of censure on the Government. If it had
been intended to convey a vote of censure, he should not
have voted for it. He thought, however, that the
Noble Lord ought not to have yielded to the
pressure which had been made. The Noble Lord said
he did not approve of every part of the scheme—he
would be very much surprised if he did agree with it.
He himself, after anxious consideration, was of
opinion that there were so many such serious
objections to the scheme that it would be better
to wait for some time, until they were able to propound
a better measure freed from these objections. This was
not a mere grant for one hundred thousand pounds,
they were about to lay the foundations of a wide
and comprehensive scheme, and they were, therefore,
bound to establish a sound principle. His objections to
the measure were insuperable. It was with regret he
differed from the Noble Lord, but he did so conscien-
tiously. He had endeavoured to state the grounds of
his opposition as briefly and temperately as possible.
He had the consolation to support him that the eloquent
speech of his Right Hon. Friend had not at all touched
the real merits of the question. That speech, and the
other speeches delivered on that side had convinced
him that there was a great lack of education, but they
had not all proved to his satisfaction that this measure
would meet the evil. He believed that this Bill would
in a very great degree tend to place a great amount of
power in the hands of the Church of England. He
thought the Church was rich enough to support its
own schools, instead of coming to the House for assist-
ance. Were the present measure passed, then the
Church would be able easily to fulfil its conditions re-
specting the schools, and by obtaining the proposed
grants their power would be immensely increased.
Not less than from 80,000 to 100,000 persons would be
brought into the pay of the State, each person receiving
on an average from 15/. to 201. yearly. To the appoint-
ment of these parties as eligible to receive the pro-
posed grant, the clergymen of the Church were
parties. Was the House prepared to grant this addi-
tional power? Now, he would ask, did history show
that such an
.arrangement could be made with advan-
tage? No wonder the Church was so much in favour
of the scheme, and the clergy attended at all the meet-
ings got up in favour of the plan.—(Hear, hear.)
He had no doubt that, in one sense, this scheme would
prove beneficial, for it would give the clergy a very im
portant influence over nine-tenths of their parishioners.-
lie thought, however, that the power given to the mem-
bers of the Church would be injurious to their
manly independence and freedom of thought, be-
sides introducing amongst them an occupation foreign to
those duties for which they were originally intended.
It was quite impossible for the Roman Catholics to avail
themselves of the benefits of the scheme, for it was
coupled with such conditions as entirely precluded the
attendance of their children at the schools, and this,

in his opinion, was a fatal objection to the
scheme. Nor
_had the speech of his Right Ho-
_ _

nourable Friend the Member for Edinburgh tended in
the slightest degree to increase his approval of it, and if
the brilliant ability of his Right Hon. Friend was in-
sufficient to throw around it anything like justification,
whence was it to be obtained? The favouritism of the
Right Honourable Member was three-fold. In the first
place he asserted that the members of the Church of
England constituted the great majority of the popula-
tion, supposing a village to contain a thousand inhabi-
tants, and nine hundred of them were members
of the Church, they were obliged to leave
the hundred. Secondly, the Dissenters, he con-
tended, would be no worse off than they were
before ; and, finally, that the Dissenters would
obtain the advantage, in common with all other
parties in the country, of the increased security
for property wbich the improved education would in-
duce. Such was the best excue which his
Right Hon. Friend had been enabled to make,
but what would be said supposing the same argu-
ments were to be adopted with rega. d to the poor
law which they were about to pass for Ireland. What
would be said, supposing it was to be alleged that the
minority was to receive no benefit from that law. In
that country the Church of England happened to
be in the minority, and what would its members
say if none but those who held the doctrines
of transubstantion were to be allowed relief.
Well, but let them look at it in its best aspects—in
those aspects in which the promoters of the scheme
wished it to be viewed. The Right Hon Gentleman
the Member for Edinburgh (Mr. Macaulay) said if
there were four schools in a particular locality,
cone connected with the Church of England, another
with the Free Church of Scotland, a third with
the Wesleyans, and a fourth with .
thtee Inde-
p
pendents. They would equally r
grants, and asked if this would be injusaiattCdicrna By
sufficient in the
t_lint if four
I
schools were opened in a district which had
children for one they would have tour bad schools in-
stead of one good school. Rather than bring about such a
result it would be better to leave education as it was at
present, leaving it as hitherto in a great measure to
voluntary aid, instead of repudiating that principle and
retaining its worst characteristics. He denied that the
question was surrounded with difficulties, and that
this was a step in the right direction.—(Hear, hear.)
(LEFT SPEAKING.)

ANCIENT RELICS.—The excavators employed on
the Norwich and Ipswich Railway, in recently taking down
a considerable elevation called Chapel-hill, at Merkshall, ad-
I joining to Caister ( Vecta Icenorum of the Romans), found
seven human skeletons, two of which evidently appeared to
be the remains of persons who had died a violent death,
having each received a mortal wound in the skull, as if
killed in some battle or skirmish. On Tuesday last, the same
labourers discovered the fcundations of a building, probably
a chapel, or some religious house; and at the moment when
our esteemed informant was watching the operations, a stone
coffin presented itself to view. It was broken in two parts,
in which were fragments of human bones, but no head.
Some pieces of Roman pottery were also discovered, but no
coins or any other antiquities, on that spot.—.Yorfok
Chronicle,