The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-13 00:00:00

DuTYoN RUM.

Sir ALEXANDER GRANT presented a petition
against the equalization of the duties on East and West
India Rum.

Mr. UAW E S presented a petition, signed by the pro-
prietors of 150,000 acres in British India, engaged in tha
production of indigo, raw silk, sugar, and tobacco, in fa-
vour of equal zation of the duties on the produce of the
East and West Indies.

On the motion of Mr. LABOUCHERE the House
went into Committee; Mr. BERNAL in the chair.

Mr. L ABOUCHERE then moved, " That it is expe-
dient to reduce the duty payable upon rum or rum shrub,
the produce of any British possession within the limits of
the East India Company's Charter."

stated that it would be very gratifying had they deemed
themselves justified in recommending that the duty on
East and West India Rum should be assimilated, but the
circumstances detailed in the evidence rendered the equa-
lization inexpedient for the present. To that opinion,
expressed after going freely into the evidence, lie (Mr.
Goulburn) was prepared to give his assent. There were
hundreds who, upon the faith of this declaration, had ex-
pended capital to an enormous amount in maintaining their
establishments, in the hope that a time would come when
this expenditure would return them some profit. Nor was
that all. That Report was communicated to the House
of Commons, and was before the Committee of that
House appointed to consider that particular subject—
a Committee including within it distinguished Mem-
bers of the Government.—( Hear.) 'The Report of the
House of Lords, declaring that the time had not
arrived for placing the East and West Indies upon equal
footing was before the Committee of the House of Com-
mons, and after going fully into the evidence, and sitting
for a vary considerable period of the Session, what was
their Report? It was:as follows :—" That this Commit-
tee find it impossible to conclude in the present Sesiien
the evidence proposed to be laid before them, and they,
think they shall best perform their duty by confining them-
selves to reporting to the House tiro evidence already
taken." They thought it best to report the evidence with-
out expressing any opinion contrary to that already before
the public, and they gave an intimation that they should re-
sume the inquiry in the next Session of Parliament. New,
he put it to the House whether it would have been ex-
pected, after what had:taken place, when the evidence had
not been long enough in the hands of Membar3 to enable
them, by the exercise of ordinary dilige ace, to go through
it, that the first measure of Government in the Session
would have been entirely at variance with the decision that
had been come to in the House of Lords, and acquiesced in
in the Commons, with respect to the equalization of these
duties ? It was not. the rum of India alone which was
sought to be placed upon an equal footing. No man who
had attended to the evidence, or consulted those who are
most conversant with the opinions which had been excited
in this country, could entertain a doubt that rum was not
the only article which was to be affected by the proposed
alteration. No man could suppose that it was intended to
limit it to the spirit which was produced from the refuse of
the sugar-cane. The measure would extend a great deal
further in its immediate operation than the statements and
reasoning of the Hon. Gentleman who proposed it would
seem to intimate. What necessity, he would ask, was
there for deviating from what had been recommended by
the House of Lords ? Could they not render the altera-
tion proposed gradual—could it not be introduced by
degrees, so that the fall in the price of commodities, the
produce of the West Indies that would necessarily result
from the changes proposed, would not be attended with
such sudden loss as it would otherwise be ?
They were not in that question called on, as regarded
the East Indies, to provide for a greatly suffering
people. There was no representation in the documents to
which lie referred, that the interest there engaged in the
manufacture of rum or the growth of sugar, was suffering
any great depression. They were not called on to provide
for the security of a large capital which, on the faith of the
country, was invested in a peculiar trade there. They
were not called on to introduce any prohibition which would
have the effect of excluding from existing advantages those
who enjoyed them. They were not called on to remove any
prohibition fatal to the existence of any branch of internal
or external commerce. Quito the contrary; The Com-
mittee of the:House of Lords, and Ministers, told them that,
it was quite the contrary—that the effect of postponement
in the present instance was only to cause for a moment a
new source of profit. The Hon. Gentleman here referred
to portions of the evidence given before a Committee of
the House by rum-producers, which were favourable to the
views which he wished to impress on the House, and con-
tinued to observe that so far was the trade in sugar, the
produce of the West Indies, from increasing, that the very
contrary was the case. lion. Members knew from documents
laid on the table, and that were in the hand's of every
man, that the produce of those colonies had hitherto been
decreasing. They knew also—at least they might easily
calculate—what would be the effect on the civilization and
improvement of those colonies if, by a sudden blow, they
should cause to be withdrawn the capital now employed in
paying the labourers on the several estates. They
should remember that the state of society there had
within the last few years undergone an entire revolution.
The people were not in slavery now as hitherto, and it
should be recollected that that very state of slavery un-
' doubtedly increased the production there beyond what the
hands employed upon it could reasonably induce HOP.
' Members to calculate upon. He sincerely rejoiced that
that state of slavery had been changed for that of freedom.
He never ventured to measure the advantages obtained by
individuals against the permanent advantages obtained by
the whale body of the people by the enjoyment of freedom.
He was ever ready to concur in the measures of Parlia-
ment, either 'for improving the condition of the slaves, or
subsequently conferring freedom ; upon them nor did he,
though: suffering in common with others from the conse-
quences of that measure, regret its being carried into ope•
ration. When those measures were first enacted, those
who took a real interest in the welfare of the coloni.s, and
had estates there, betook themselves, in the interval of the
apprenticeship, to expend the money they received from
Government, in endeavouring to make the system of free-
dom work well when it would have cove to pass. He
could instance many persons who having no debts or in-
cumbrances on their own estates, had expended the whole
of their capital in making preparations on their estates for
the abolition of slavery, and for gradually introducing the
negroes to freedom. Those individuals who thus stood by
the colonies, were plunged into difficulties which it was
impossible fur those who had not experienced them to con-
ceive. He spoke not only from his owe experience, but
L from that of others. Tho sudden burst of freedom made
every slave wild with joy. It became almost impcissible to
I get any of them to work, and in conseluence the crops
were frequently left uncollected. Hon. Gentlemen might
not be aware of the disastrous consequences of leaving
the flocks uncollected, but they were such as would pre-
vent the proprietors of estates from obtaining the
least return or profit from their properties for a series
of years afterwards. Such having been the difficulties
in which the holders of estate: in those colonies, but espe-
cially in the island of Jamaica, were plunged by the
change which had taken place by the decision of Parlia-
ment, and employed as they had been since that period, in
endeavouring to recover the ground which from that cir.
cumstance they had lost, by continued expenditure on their
properties, in the hope of obtaining a return, all he was
anxious to ask of the House—and it was no more than
what had been recommended by a Committee of the House
of Lords—was that they should not at that moment, when
capital was being expended, when there had not elapsed
time sufficient to allow of such a re-establishment of pro•
perty, as to admit of the slightest return of any part of
the capital expended—all he asked of the Ilouse was to
adopt the well considered resolution of the House of Lords,
and not visit those colonies, so suffering and so injured,
with the ruinous consequences in which the equaliza-
tion of duties would irretrievably involve them.
Taking the question as merely one of duty, the
difference of the distinctive duties on East and
West India products of sugar amounted, as stated in
evidence given before the House, and which they had on
the table, to 12 per cent. and by means of the measure of
emancipation and its consequences, the price of labour had
been so raised, that the amount of duty imposed on the
produce of the West Indies was in effect more than double
that sum. The Right Hoe. Gentleman next proceeded to
show that the relative conditions of the cultivators of the
soil in the West and East Indies, were materially different,
aad that the producers in the East had advantages in that
respect which the West Indian planter did not possess. In
the West Indies the labourer might work one day and idle
the next, or go to any portion of the colony, and perhaps
never be heard of again. That was not the case in the
East Indies ; there was a connection arising Irons the cir-
curnstaeces of society in that country, which bound the
labourer more or less to the cultivation of the property on
which he happened to reside, and that gave a facility of
obtaining labour which it was not possible to possess in the
' West Indies, and that circumstance alone, he contended,
ought to induce Hon. Members to take a favourable view of
the present condition of the West Indies, and not to press
the present measure. Thu grower of sugar in the East
Indies had other advantages, too, that were inaccessible to
the owners of estetes in the West Indies. The growers
of sugar is the East Indies had a market of one hundred
millions of people in which to di-pose of their produce.
The sugar of the East Indies travelled into the interior of
Asia, and into those extensive traets to which the Russian
merchants treflieked, and from that enormous market of
one hundred millions of people the West Indian producer was
more effectually excluded than by any system of prohibi-
' tory duties that could be established. He believed the
equalization of duties was essential to the provpel ity of the
East Indies. He would readily waive, as far as was con-
sistent with the safety of our other posse-sions, all
claims on the part of the body on whose be.
half he was speaking. But when lie saw that they had
unlimited means of extending their produce, short of ex-
teeding the whole of it into this country, he could not per-
suade himself, after the most candid atiention he could give
to the subject, that by postponing the equalization of duty
there cculd be any degree of permanent or even temporary
injury to their interests. He knew the Right lion. Gen-
tleman ( Mr. Lebouchcre) had tried to raise something
in favour of his argument by saying that the present West
India trade was an odious monopoly. It might be very
well to give such names to interests ma were desirous to
abolish, but ho confessed he had heard with some satisfac-
tion the observations of the Right Hon. Gentleman. Tl.e
Right Hon. Gentleman bad stated that if he could believe
that the measure in question would be injurious to the
West Indies he should be the last to propose it, and he
(Mr. Goulburn) trusted he had in some degree satisfied
him th it these interests would be placed in jeopardy by the
course he was about to pursue. But if he had failed to do
this,
he asked if the Right lion. Gentleman was aware of
the effect which the mere statement of his intentions
had produced ? On the very day on whirls he
produce?
oar
dt hubeceheifo.7,
tailtlie,dl3 tcht
11, leo
(n .MGr e)ma as
kn
evd:
stated his intentions, British Rum fell in the market 15
as
Inieotcoauelikiirenuotf
thence estimate what alarm the success of this measure would
ose most interested in it were pretty shrewd
estimators of coming events. What then wore likely to be
the consequences of this measure if the House should Sc'he
Bightte understand,xi uiexisting
thatedriuttl
ieetisii:e.ionnothol:vedei
their
givenl)ireundt u
didtel
ti,e
cede to it ? T
oe
difficulties in which the Coloniesl were
sMr. Giornuil)breusrisie)dluiapdonsuici•ieseoewdendmi
ipbnn\
leoVgaiti:egi intend I;ecuic Landodisli
iucatbi
s7eihel,a( flo),,fid‘ere,
hat
ind, that
t le measure could not affect East India produce, he thought
h.: had said enough to satisfy them that they would have
aeted more vi isely, nice e consistently, and he might
say,
more justly, if they bad adopted the resolution of the Co n-
mittee of the Hofew of Lords, and net hastily and at once
subjected our West India interests to violent change at a
time when they were on the brink of ruin, but have waited
till it was decided, as it would speedily be, whether it
was possible for them to weather the storm under which
they were labouring, and to compete with other interests.
o
He knew, when they considered the enormous population
the East Indies, and the limited population of the
\Veit Indies, some persona might be of opinion the latter
;
were comparatively little dcserviNg of notice, But he

Mr. GOULBURN had certainly expected.: the ques-
tion would have been discussed as to whiat effect this pro-
posed measure would hays on the system of slavery in In-
dia before the question was agreed to. It had formerly
been the custom, in considering cases of this nature, for
the Members of the Government either to investigate the
subject in the recesses of their offices, and to receive infor-
mation from all the parties interested to guide their judg-
ment, and to come to the House without any previous an-
nouncement of their opinion. or to come down to the House
and to propose a Select Committee, before which the
different parties interested would have an oppor-
tunity of urging whatever they might think necessary for
the. protection of their interests, and that Committee
thereonnieni,it
having considered the whole of the evidence, reported
In the present instance, howeve
r,
neither ea
lulledh a d
ibnetoenseefoulrl
security
w ebd; t h
e'T The
Govern.W eesri
ihae interest tethsleti clsiea House.
mart, who now turned round upon them.y -The case was
altogether a new one ; and he should be glad to hear from any
gentleman connected with the Government- on what ground
they rested the arguments for the adoption of the course
merelyi plead-
which they hail pursued. Ile was ricit
ing the cause of that interest with whicihm'vb property
he was unfortunately connected, but he was pleading the
cause of every honest man who had embarked
in
trade, who had a right to be told why certain measures were
adopted, by which he felt his property would beuirne: iv
in considerable hazard. It would be in the recollection
of the House that early in the course of last Session the
East India Company presented a petition stating va-
rious grievances under which they considered them-
selves labouriag in respect to the differential duties
levied on East Indian produce. Nothing could be fairer
than that petition. It was suggested to his Hon. Friends
the Members for Shrewsbury and 13i verlev, who presented
came
that petition, that it would be better to refer it to a SAect
Cominitee, and that recommendation he believed
from a Member of the Government.
Sir J. C. HOBIIO USE—Yes ; from myself.
Mr. GOULBURN—In consequence of that recom-
mendation, the petition= of the East India Company, both
to this and the other House of Parliament, were referred
to Select Committees of Members of the respective
!louses. In the other House of Parliament the Members
of the Government took a direct part in that Committee.
The first on the list of that Committee was the Noble Lord
who presided over the Council, and who, from his position
and knowledge, might be considered as fairly representing
the feelings of the Government. Another Member of that
Committee was the Noble Lord who held the Privy Seal,
and who was also now Chancellor of the Duchy
of Lancaster, and he considered he was paying
the Noble Lord no idle compliment when ho
said he considered that ho possessed perhaps greater
power of forming a correct: judgment on such a sub-
ject than any of his callea
gues ; and that he was more
peculiarly fitted for such an inquiry from the great
diligence and ability with whicn be had for a long
time executed the functions of a Commissioner of Customs,
which afforded him peculiar opportunities of becoming
o n macquaintedtr,e
niwithn det operationhaeßcp ,rt, f
from
rn which
o f differentialb
e w would
ndludt duties.
an
.Tehxa.t
c
tract. The Right lion. Gentleman then read an extract from
the Re jwt of tug Lord,' Committee. Ti e Committee

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 13. 1841

never could forget that cur West Indian Islands were
among the earliest possessions of the British Crown—that
it was through the medium of these colonies Great Britain
had acquired that strength and interest, and naval power
which had made her one of the greatest powers in the
world. -It was through them she had been enabled to
acquire this empire in India, for which the Committee
was now prepared to sacrifice their interests. The time
might come when, through the medium of these colonies,
Great Britain might still have the means of rendering
herself illustrious in war and wealthy in peace. There
might still exist feelings of regard between them, if Great
Britain would consent in time to cement thoSe bonds ot
intercourse which were necessary for their mutual inte-
rests. He apologised to the Committee for so long tres-
passing on their attention. His object had been to insist,
on the part of the West Indian body, upon the obligations
of good faith which the Government were under, and to
call upon the Committee not to sanction the principle
proposed to it, or to adopt a course which, if pursued,
would involve our West Indian possessions in immediate
difficulty, if not in absolute ruin.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. LABOUCEI E R E said he confessed he had heard
the speech just addressed to the Committee by the Right
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Goulburn) with great satisfaction.
—( Cheers.) Attaching, as he did, great importance to
the motion he had brought forward, both on account of its
merits, but still more on account of the principle which it
contained—(Cheers)—he confessed he rejoiced that he
had heard from a gentleman possessed of the ability, in-
formation, and long experience of the Right lion. Gentle-
man, arguments which, unless he greatly deceived him-
self, had in them so little substance—( Cheers)—that,
comparatively speaking, in even a short statement from
himself, inferior as he knew himself to be to the Right
lion. Gentleman in every quality, he trusted it would be
extremely easy to convince the House that nothing had
been stated which ought to interpose any obstacle to the
immediate adoption of this resolution.—( Cheers. ) The
Right Hon. Gentleman had begun by complaining of the
conduct of the Government, because, having assented
to the appointment of a Committee of both Houses,
on the subject in the course of last Session, and the
Committee of the House of Lords having expressed an
opinion not unfavourable to the principle of this measure,
but, on the contrary, assenting to it, but recommended
delay before it was adopted, the Government agreed
with the House of Lords on the principle, but were un-
able to agree in the recommendation that delay should
take place.—(Cheers.) It was not for him to speak dis-
respectfully of any recommendation of either house of
Parliament, still less of the recommendation of a Commit-
tee which consisted of Noble Lords of the greatest capa-
city, and which had given the subject an attentive investi-
gation. But thistle would say, that, in his opinion, no Minis-
ter who held the situation he had the honour to hold, had
a right to skulk behind the Report of any Committee, either
in defending himself, or bringiug forward a proposition
which he did not believe to be just and reasonable ; or, on
the other hand, for refusing to bring forward a measure
which he believed to be expedient and necessary for the
public interest.—(Cheers.) And he would also say, with
respect to these general Reports of Committees of both
Houses of Parliament, that he thought them invaluable for
collecting information, and suggesting general principles:;
but as to advising the House as to the precise mode and
time for carrying any measure into effect, he believed this
would be much better done by those who, having access to
official sources of information, were more likely to come to
a correct conclusion as to the manner of carrying it into
effect than any Committee could be. The Right Hon.
Gentleman had taunted him that two Noble Friends,
who were now Members of the Government, had
been Members of this Committee of the house of Lords.
He (Mr. Labouchcre) acknowledged this to have been the
case, but be believed they had attached more importance
than they ought to have done to the statement of the
West Indians, as to the effect of the alteration ; but he
had been able to give his Noble Friends satisfactory rea-
sons that these statements were incorrect, as he hoped lie
should be able to give the Committee. In truth, the
question between the Right Hon. Gentleman and himself
lay in a very narrow compass. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man had just told the House the West Indians had no in-
defeasible right to a monopoly any more than
her Majesty's colonial subjects in any other part
of the world. All he had said was, that the pecu-
liar circumstances in which the West Indies were
placed called for some important application of a prin-
ciple which he believed to be abstractedly just. He
(Mr. Labouchere) thought he should be able to show to
the House—he did not at all deny the effect of this motion
would be important, that of necessity, it must be gradual—
that it could produce no 'sudden effect to the ruin of West
Indian interests. Such statements were founded on the
most exaggerated views. He trusted that the House
would bear with him while he entered into such details of
this dry subject as were necessary to make it intelligible.
—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon, Gentleman had re-
minded him of a statement he had made with regard to the
present condition of the rum trade, when he had first
brought the question before the House. He (Mr. Goul-
burn) had stated, and stated forma'', that at that mo-
ment there was a greater quantity of rum brought into the
the United Kingdom than could be consumed in it—( Hear,
hear)—and that in consequence the surplus was
exported, and that though the West Indians find no-
minally and legally a monopoly of the Engi;:h
market, yet they were not able to impose upon the Eng
lish market a monopoly of price. That was true;; but it
was not true if they altered the duty. They did not sud-
denly alter the prices of rum as it' they were to let in
foreign sugar. He believed it was quite true of the
coarse sorts of rum and the rum of the Leeward Islands,
but the rum of Jamaica was in a different situation ; its
price was nearly double the Leeward Islands rum. Jamaica
rum undoubtedly maintained u monopoly of price in the
English market, and they anticipated that if the East
Indiana were allowed to bring rum here then would be
able to compete with Jamaica rum and to gradually reduce
its price. But was not this a desirable object ?
( Cheers.) Was it not fair that the East Indians should
introduce runt and sell it ? But it was obvious that this
could not be done at once. It would require some
time to improve the quality of Indian rum, and when
he said he did not object to do this, he would remind the
House that the price of rum was higher now in England
than at any time during the last twenty-five years. lie
said, therefore, that the British consumer ougjrt not to
be lost sight of in a question of this sort. It would be an
inducement to introduce finer as well as coarse sugar. Ile
thought he had sufficiently shown the house that he should
not inflict a sudden blow on the West Indian interests, or
do anything to produce an effect which had been described
in such exaggerated language as that of placing the West
Indies in a state of hopeless and irretrievable ruin. lie
now begged the attention of' the House to what appeared
to him to be an important branch of the subject, namely,
the effect the present system of discouragement to import.
ing East Indian nroduce had on the produce and supply of
sugar to this country. lie trusted the House would con-
sider the double operation of the present system. 'I he
Right Hon. Gentleman had alluded to the evidence before
the Committee, but individuals of the highest respeeta-
leility, Mr. Rogers and others, who bad embarked large
capital in the cultivation of sugar in the East Indies, stated
that they found they could no longer find a market for mo-
lasses unless encouragement were given them to make it
into rum, which proved a serious check to the cultivation
of sugar. The testimony of Mr. Symonds was to the
same effect, He (Mr. Labouchere) believed this mono-
poly restricted the cultivation of sugar in the East Indies,
and that the present system of rum duties operated as a
serious discouragement to their efforts. He would now
turn to the West Indies, and what was the effect produced
by these duties there. There was remarkable evidence
given by the West Indians themselves. lie alluded to a
witness whom the Right lion, Gentleman had quoted,
named Green, who said, " The consequence of the h gin
price of rum in the West Indies, is to divert the
ma-
nufacture of the produce of the sugar cane from
the manufacture of sugar to the manufacture of rum."
The proportion was now entirely reversed, and more
rum came, and less sugar.—(Mr. Goulburn cheered.)
The Right Honourable Gentleman cheered, implying
that it was advantageous to the West Indies. But what
was its effect here ?—( Cheers.) Was it not shown that
this system cheeks the production of sugar in the West
Indies, by giving the merchant encouragement to send
ruin instead of sugar ; and that in the East Indies it also
discouraged the manufacture of sugar, and diminished the
supply ? He must say when these were the c ifects—when
this was the injurious operation of these duties in the East
and West Indies, he was convinced this inequality was a
gross injustice—( Chem s)—ene which rankled in the
minds of the Indian community, and which it was their
duty to remove. On the other hand, being convinced diet
there were no real ,grounds for saying that the removal of dile
system would be fatal to the prosperity of the West Indies,
he f, lt, if he had adopted a different course, he should
have deserted hi:: duty, and broken his faith to those gen-
tlemen connected with the East Indies viiioni he promised,
riot only that these matters should be referred to a Coin.
mittee, but that he would consider their Report, and if
convinced that any part of their demand was founded in
justice, would lose no time in applying a remedy
to the evils of which they complained.—(hear, hear.)
lie would not detain the Howe much longer. lie was
almost asheined of urging this question again, after it had
been 20 much narrowed.—( Hear, hear.) When he looked
at the situation of India, and remembered that they drew
Government, for which they could give
three millions and a half annually for thenoexriemtunrcne,s tuifnit,lsies
when he recollected that we had not,
it was by means of the proposed tneaseir,,e)—wi(rililitetaer, d,hie)
by
the
effect of our laws, though they had too often been unjust,
but by the effect of our machinery, and by the natural
advantages we possessed, utterly destroyed her manufac-
tures; when he recollected that it had been stated by one
of the witnesses, that a town which was formerly considered
the Manchester of India had dwindled down, to 30,000
inhabitants, and the jungle and malaria were gaining upon
its streets, and there were numerous classes of persons in
that country who, from the prejudices of caste, found it no
difficult to obtain employment, that they had been reduced
to the lowest state of misery and distress ; when he con-
sidered all these things, he thought he had a right to ask
tire house to accede to the measure which wee then under
their attention. Ile would not weary tile House with the
details of this question, but really there were some facts
so remarkable that he could not help referring to
them. Ile held in his hand a return of the quantities
of cottons and muslins of British manufacture which had
been exported in tire last few years, and really the increase
was most remarkable. The lion. Gentleman then pro-
ceeded to give some returns, showing an
in the exportation of muslins and cotto -
thitel 1837 had
iniciareaselnfrlo79slBthi4e
ivtaalumeouonfteydartno
602,0001.5efr0 AllEngtlhaendeveilsnle6e,owo,loll/cil
received showed that the demand on the part of India for
ow manufactures was only limited by our own restrictions.
He would not, as he might do, appeal to the feelings, the
generosity, and the justice of that House ; but he would
ask those who represented British interests and British
manufactures whether they would not be consulting their
own interests by giving encouragement to Indian produce?
—( Hear, hear.) lie did not know that, until be heard
some further arguments upon the subject, he needed
trouble the House at any greater length. He confessed him.
self rejoiced that the lion. Gentleman did not use argu-
ments which lie had seen calculated in certain papers; he
rejoiced that the Right Hun. Gentleman, thuugh he had

fairly stated his views as a West Ine'inn, and his opinion
that the measure should not be adopted on account of the
peculiar situation of the West Indic 's,
did not at-
tempt an unworthy appeal—and he most say it was
an appeal as foolish as it was unworthy- —to the vague
fears of the agricultural interest.—( Hear, hear.) 11,
would have blushed if, on that occasion, he had seen a gen-
tleman of England come forward, with a proteeeion. really
with
at that moment upon British spirit, as compared 1 lco-
lonial spirit, greater by 181. gallon. Ho s..t‘U
h dt have
blushed if he had seen an .English gentleman—
Mr. H. GOULBURN—In England?
Mr. L AB OUC HERE—The difference would be still
greater in Ireland and Scotland. He imagned no ono
would suppose that there was the slightest danger in the
two countries.—(Hear, hear.) But he 'veiny hope
d that
that argument would not be used, for it would test he a Cro-
ditable argument to say that, with this enormous pieteCtleirs
they were af aid that such was the fertility of Incijil that
they were afraid some pot tions of British spirits might lit
possibility he displaced by spirits coming from India, f'7
this Bill passed. He expected to have had to deal more at
large with that argument, but as it bad not been advanced
by the Hon. Gentleman, he would not trouble the House
with any observations upon it. He would now state, in
conclusion, that attaching, as he did, greet importance to
this question on its own merits, he attached much greater
importance to it on account of the principle which it in-
volved. He was quite sure that in a country like this,
possessing a widely-extended colonial empire, there was
but one safe as well no rational principle, namely, to treat
with equal favour and justice, every portion of that empire.
—( Hear, hear.) He therefore hoped that he should re-
ceive the support of the House upon that occasion. Ile
would not trouble the House any further than to thank
them for the indulgence which they had shown him.
Mr. EWA lIT said that the Right llon. Gentleman
opposite, in opposing this measure, had first based his
opposition upon the Report of the House of Lords. Uoon
that he had been fully met by his Hon. Friend. He heal
then taken refuge in the proceedings of the Committee of
the House of Commons. That Committee, it was said,
made no Report. But why had they not done so? Not
because they were not convinced by the arguments in fa-
vour of the equalization of duty, but because the Commit-
tee was delayed throughout the whole of its proceedings by
the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the Mauritius,
whom he saw opposite to him.—( Laughter. The Hon.
Member was understood to refer to Mr. Irving.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman had stated that the East Indian
rum found a ready market. Upon that point he would
refer to the evidence taken before the Committee. Mr.
Trevillian stated that there was no market for East Indian
rum, when it could be sold et a profit, except in the Eng-
lish market. Mr. Rogers, who was himself the owner of a
large factory in the interior of India, said, that under the
present system there was no effective competition between
East and West India rum. He confessed he should have
been better pleased if her Majesty's Government had pro-
posed a more comprehensive measure. He thought they
were bound to encourage the importation of the national
productions of India—sugar, rum, cotton, tobacco, indigo,
and other articles. As they had greeted the reduction of
the sugar duties it fo s ed as a matter of course that the
equalization of the s duties should be conceded
also. It should be r bered that, at the conclusion of
1839, the stock of s r was calculated at 40,000 tons,
and that at the end of 1840 it was 200,000. In 1835 the
consumption was 200,000 tone, whilst in 1840 it was only
165,000. The people of England were thus deprived of
35,000 tons, although the population was increasing.—
Rum was not the only article upon which the duty was
unequal. There was a duty of 9d. upon Mysore coffee,
instead of the colonial duty of 6d. This was a great in-
justice to the people of India. Mysore was virtually a
British possession; it was one of those countries which
came under the subsidiary system, and ought not therefore
to be treated with such manifest injustice. There were
at this moment many prospects of advantages to the Bri-
tish capitalist in India. In a:most all parts of India, the
transit duties had been abolished. Though they still
existed to a certain extent in Madras, yet they were gra-
dually disappearing ; and this would be a great relief to
commerce and manufactures, and greatly encourage capi-
talists'in their undertakings. In the last Session of Par-
liament he (Mr. Ewart) moved for returns of the
existing settlements in India. It was gratifying to
know that they were constantly on the increase. He
hoped the time would arrive when the settlements
of India would be like the German Confederation,
which united all the parts of that extensive empire, bound
together by a community of interests. They would never
be able to call forth its resources whilst it remained in
detached portions; its resources would be called out when
it formed one vast and comprehensive whole, and he
trusted that the small beginning, for small it was, which
was then about to be made, would be finally consummated
in a far more comprehensive system, and that, commencing
with the reduction of duties, they would end in the con-
solidation and assimilation of them throughout the whole
continent of India.
Mr. COLQUHOUN looked upon the proposed mea-
sure as oue which would ultimately tend to the benefit of
our West Indian as well as our East Indian colonies. The
present state of things, on the cootrary, was injurious to
both colonies. He felt that every protection should now

sugar-cane. With regard to the certificate of the re-
venue officer in India, on which the Right Hon. Gentle-
man stated he could rely as confidently as on the certifi-
cate of a revenue officer in this country, it should be re-
collected that the revenue officers in this country were ap-
pointed by the Government, and had no interest exccpt to
do their duty to their employers. Now, in the East
Indies, they were appointed by the Company ; and it was
their direct interest to procure the exportation of spit its
to this country. There was a great difference betwesn
the two cases. He would not go back to the times mr
1792, or to any times previous to Emancipation, in ar-
guing this question on behalf of the West India interests.
It should be recollected that by the great measure of
Emancipation the West Indies had been placed in a novel
situation. He did not impngn that great measure, but
it found himself and others in possession of
certain rights, with which it was found impossible
to deal without a grant of money. He was not going to
edeny that the grant of twenty millions was an enormous
suo, but when it was talked of as compensation, it was far
hem placing them in the position which they had occupied,
and, c entinued the Hon. Gentleman, I appeal to you,
Ber, sal, whether such is not the case."--( Loud laugh-
ter.) His. Right Hon. Friend had told them that what he
had receives. as compensation he had not put into his own
pocket, but he
had
.laid it out on the imprcvement of his
estate, and, said
the Hon. Baronet, " Mr. Bernal, I appeal
to you, Sir, referriiese to the income you received More
that period, and the incerme you ,have received ever since,
whether you consider yreurself compensated.—( Shouts of
laughter mingled with cries of " Question, question," " Di-
vide, divide.") He himself had not received any be-
nefit. The reduction in the production of his es-
tates had been great, and he had to pay high
wages, which he had not had to pay before,
and yet the production had diminished
( Hear, hear.) Perhaps it might be said he was furnishing
an argument against himself, and in favour of increasing
the sugar cultivation in the Emit Indies. No such thing.
in former times the production of the West Indies had
been more than sufficient for the consumption of England ;
but now the stimulus to labour in the West Indies was so
smell, that the supply of labour w as not sufficient for the
cettie,etion. When the supply of labour should be in-
creased, he had no doubt but the .supply would be again
to the demands of Engler. d. The estates were
fully equa.l
now cultism). sd at an actual loss ; and,, if this state of things
continued, t
esee must eventually go out of cultivation.—
(Loud cries of " Divide, divide.") With regard to the
price of sugar, it should be recollected that the war
duty of 253. was st.;ll continued, and that that duty had
been still further increased last Session. He would sug-
gest to the Right Hon. Piessident of the Board of Trade
a verbal alteration in the reso2ution, which would do away
with the necessity of dividing---.'t was that the duty should
be gradually reduced.
Sir Luelmemi)N said the t there were three
great interests to be considered in discus sing this question ;
first, the interests of the consumers .in this country—
( Cheers)—secondly, the` just claims ofi he inhabitants o
our extensive dominions in the East ,Indies—(Hear
hear)—and, thirdly, the state and position of hose holdingf
property in the West Indies. He would be,' its by observ-
ing that he heartily concurred in the gene,sal prissiciples'
laid down by his Right Hon. Friend. &sailer Great
Britain nor any other country had any right to melee con-
quests of extensive dominions, and keep them in a state
of dependence, if those dominions were governed oe any
other principles than for the benefit and happiness of the
people inhabiting them.—( Loud cheers.) He had loOk ed
at the history of India with sorrow, and sometimes wit h
disgust, however much he might admire the brilliant ex-
ploits which our arms had frequently achieved in that
country. There were many scenes in the history of our
connection with that country over which he would
wish to cast a shade; but this only rendered it
a more imperative duty en the House and the country to govern
India for the benefit of the inhabitants. How that duty had
been discharged no man could doubt, who looked to the records
of the last few years, more particularly to the labours of the
Committee of 1835. It was. their duty now to do every thing
in their power to promote the prosperity of that unfortunate
country, and to redress those wrongs and that injustice which
had heretofore been inflicted on it. Entertaining those views,
it was impossible that he should not be prepared to offer every,
encouragement to the inhabitants of Hindostan.—( Hear, hear.)
Looking again to the condition of the consumers of sugar in
this country, there could be no doubt that the diminished im-
portation of that article had operated on them with the
utmost severity..—(Hear, hear.) There was, however, a
fear that it would be attempted to introduce into this country
the produce of slave labour. His Hon. Friend below him had
said that free labour could compete successfully with slavery.
Now he (Sir S. L.) admitted that under equal circumstances
it could do so. But he would say that the British Colonies
could not contend with Cuba and Brazil, where every day rich
soils were being brought for the first time into cultivation,
and there was a mstitinual and uninterrupted importation of
slaves.—( Hear, hear.) This led him to consider the case of the
West Indies. The Hort. Gentleman opposite (Sir A. Grant)
had said that the Colonies were in a state of transition, and that
time ought to be allowed them to recover.—(Hear.) Now
be thought that argument Would be overwhelming, if it had
the force in the present case which the Hon. Gentleman alleged.
It was his firm opinion that this measu:e could not affect their
interests. He remembered to have heard Mr. Huskisson state
on several occasions that the East Indies could never compete
with the West in the production of sugar, and it was very well
known that the great increase which had taken place lately in
the exportation was occasioned, not by an increaso of produc-
tion, but at the expense of the native consurn.srs, in conse-
quence of the advance if price in Europe:—( Eraser, hear.)
In considering the appeal of the Hon. Member tor Cam-
bridge, who had stated his own case SQ pathetically, It t them
look to the present state of Jamaica—let them bear in mind
that the inferiority if that island to the other colonies less' fa-
vourably circumstanced in all other respects, was owing to
want of judgment on the part of the Jamaicans themselves.•
Antigua, with a worn-out soil, had gone on improving. Bar-
badoes, which was scarcely better off in that respect, was
rising to prosperity. He could not doubt, therefore, that the
great island of Jamaica would also surmount its difficulties.—
( Hear, hear.) He would net vote for any measure which did
not fully provide against the introduction of any slave-grown
produce whatever.—( Hear, hear.) If such api ovision was
not secured the West Indies would have good right to complmn
___(J:fear)—and the people of England would have a right to
complaLn, that after expending twenty millions for the suppres-
sion of slavery, they were to be again drawn into the encourage-
ment of it.—(Hear, hear.) He would ask the House to sup-
port hint at a future stage of the Bill in the introduction of a
clause to protect this country from the introduction of slave
produce. —( Cries of "Divide, divideS")
Lord SANDON, who was very iedstinctly heard in the
gallery, said he had listened with great attention and interest to
the discussion. He thought there was one party whose interest
ought to he consideied, and who had not been attended to in
the debate—net the West India proprietors, but that popula-
tion of 800,000 lobourers who were now undergoing a great ex-
periment. He thought it desirable that the capita;.ists holding
property in those colonies should be encouraged to carry that
experiment to a successful result. To gratify feelings of our
own, we had prevented them from introducing free labourers
from other parts of the world, and we ought not to depTive
them altogether of our assistance.—( Hear, hear.) Ile thought
that they should have a little time before they were exposed to
this new competition, and he should therefore suggest that the
law should not come into operation for two) years.—( Hear. )
Mr. L AI3OUCHERE thought that it was not at all ad-
visable to accede to the proposition of the Noble Lord, who,
he believed, spoke rathor from the suggestions of the West
India proprietors than from his own opinions. It was, how-
ever, a matter of necessity that considerable time should elapse
before the Bill came into operation. The rum. now under
bond would of course not be admitted under this Bill—(Hear)
—and as no rum would be admitted without the certificate of
identity, which must come from India, the Bill could not come
at tall into practical effect under six months, nor to any extent
' for several months more.—( Hear, hear.) No deiay in the
passing of the measure was necessary, and he should oppose
any amendment having that object.—(Hear, and " Divide.")
Mr. HOGG rose amidst loud cries of "Divide." He was
only anxious to ask whether there existed any intention to
adopt the clause of the Right Hon. Gentleman? Be could not
allow the observations of the Right Hon. Gentleman to go
forth to the public without stating that there was not one
pound of sugar made in India by slave labour. He was quite
certain that the proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman
would not satisfy himself—how could they expect to put
down slavery by a discriminating duty of 6s. per:gallon ?
Sir CHARLES GREY then rose, and was saluted by loud
cries of "Oh oh !" and " Divide," which for a time (frowned
his voice. We understood him to say that the clause proposed
by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the Tower
Hamlets would be quite fallacious; suppose it was agreed to,
where and by whom was the discovery to be made that certain
rums were made from sugars, the produce of free or slave la-
bour? It was an impracticable scheme. He •kad now been
eight years from India, but he could state that when he was
there, there was an anxious desire on the part of the Govern-
ment to put an end to all slave labour, and that they would
carry out these plans at the earliest moment was his firm belief.
Sir R. PEEL then rose, and was met with cries of "Divide ; "
he said it was all very well to cry "Divide," but it was to be
borne in mind that the question was a very important one, and
and that, in fact, that single debate would decide it. He was
anxious to state the impression which had been made on his
mind by reading the evidence upon the subject, and he came
to its consideration with a mind totally unbiassed; he was con-
nected neither with the East nor the West Indies, and if he had
any predilection at all it was in favour of the consumer.—
( Hear, hear.) Ile felt bound to say that many of the argu-
ments which had been advanced against the equalization of the
duties had made no impression on his mind ; but neither could
lie admit that the arguments of the Right Hon. Gentleman
(Dr.. Lushingten) had any weight; he could not admit that
slavery existed in India to such a degree as to entitle
them to postpone the equalization of the duties.
( Hear, hear.) The Right Honourable Member might
attempt to destroy slavery in the present Session, but
he (Sir R. Peel) was afraid that it was so much connected
with caste that he would find it a much more difficult matter
than he seemed to expect, and if they were to postpone the
equalization of the duties until that desirable end had been
effected, they would postpone it to a period that would be most
acceptable to the most ardent friend of the West India inte-
rests.—(Hear, hear.) He thought, however, that the West
India interests had not had clue notice of the change which was
now proposed—he thought they ought to have had some inti-
mation from the Government during the last Session of their
intention to make the proposed alteration ; and even now be
thOught that they ought to commence the reduction imme-
diately—say that they should reduce the duty 2s. during the
present year, 2s. more the next year, and provide that
at the end of the third year the duties should be
wholly assimilated.—( Hear, hear, hear.) That would be
doing justice to all parties—they would thereby recognise the
principle of equality, and at the same time afford the West In-
dian interest full notice of the intentions of the Legislature.
That was clue to that interest. A vast and most important
experiment was now going oa in the West Indies, and it was
very important that it should be meddled with as little as pos-
sible ; it was most important that it should be successful, in
order to deprive the slave-holding countries, France and Ame-
rica, of the opportunity of appealing to our nee-success in fa-
vour of their system of slavery.—(Hear, hear.) He thought
the plan he proposed would be the most prudent course ; and
if any Gentleman moved accordingly, he would feel bound to
vote with him, but he did not think that his duty compelled
him to disturb the unanimity of the House by making the pro.
position.
In answer to a question from Lord SANDON,
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Government did not in-
terfere with any emigration from India to the West Indies,
where the parties paid their own passage ; but the Government
did not think it would be fair to raise a general tax for such
a purpose.
The resolution was then put from the Chair and agreed to
without a division.
The House then resumed.
On the motion that the House do resolve itself into a Com-
mittee of Ways and Means,
Mr. GOULBURN complained that the usual precedents had
not been follo Ned in going Into Committee of Supply, inasmuch

be abolished. For the sake of ih-e West Indian interest

itself, he desired that there should be introduced into the
-narkets of this country such an amount of sugar from the
Eait :_ndies as would serve as a safety-valve to the Go-.
vernment abeainst the strong pressure which demanded a
reduction on the: sugar duties; and he believed that the
increased consemptioi: which would follow would be bene-
ficial to the East Indies, and even to the West Indies
themselves. If be looked to the manufacturing interests
of the country also, ho felt that etLeci reduction was neces-
sary. Such a measure would bind the East Indies to this
country by the strongest tie that could Imite them, an
identity of interests. How could they otherw:se preserve
that mighty empire which contributed so much to ti;;' great-
ness of this country? The Russian and the British em-
pires in the East were now fast approaching each other,
and would soon, perhaps, have to contend for the mastery
there, while it would soon perhaps be a question with a
large portion of the inhabitants of Asia to which they
should attach themselves ; and, under these cir-
cumstances, was it not of the utmost importance to
convince the people of the East, that while the principles
of Russia were those of commercial monopoly and self.
interest, the policy of Great Britain, on the contrary,
would be large, liberal, mid generous—( Hear, hear)—and
that while they introduced into the last the manufactures
of England, as it was the interest of both people, they
would throw open, on the other hand, to the produce of
the East the ports of this country. Such it course would
not only advance the cause of civilization, but would pro-
mote the best interests of this country. On these grounds
he would support the motion of the Right Hon. Gentle
man ; and he did think that, whatever might be said as to
the Right lion. Gentleman having broken faith with the
West Indies, after the Report that had been published,
and the evidence taken, the GovernMent were right in the
course they had followed.—( Hear,. h'ear.)
Mr. HAWES said he believed that an undue
protection had hitherto been given to the West Indies,
and the result was, that the inhabitants of those colonies
had neglected the resources which they possessed. They
acre, therefore, obliged to have constant recourse to the
assistance of this country. He believed that if the mono-
poly had been long since abolished, they would he free from
the difficulties which never failed to press upon them.
He was confirmed in that opinion when he saw the trade
of the East Indies prosper under a contrary system. That
increasing prosperity had undoubtedly taken place. In
the year 1786, for instance, he found that the East Indies
exported to the value of 57,0001. of indigo; in the year
1809, to the value of 1,105,0001. ; in the year 1830, to the
value of 2.000,0001., and in the year 1840, the value of the
indigo they exported amounted to 2,400,000/. Besides, the
high price of sugar was to be considered in the effect it
wound have on the interests of the public. Under the
monopoly and the high price, there was a decline in the
consumption, which led to a diminution in the revenue ;
and the consequence of that diminution would be that
fresh taxation should be imposed upon the people. lie
did not think, however, that any thing could justify an
increase of taxation which would be caused by a monopoly.
wished to call the attention of the House to the rela-
tion between high prices and a diminished consumption.
He would take for that purpose the concluding months of
the years 1839 and 1840. In July 1839, the consumption
was 10.000 tons, and in July 1840 it was 9,200 tons,
showing a deficiency of nearly 1,000 ; the corresponding
prices were 40s. in the one case, and 555. in the other.
In August 1839, the consumpticn was 12,200 tons, and
in August 1840, it was 7,0f10, showing a deficiency of more
than 5,000; the corresponding prices were 40s. and 575.
In September 1839, the consumption was 9,600 tons,
and in September 1840, it was 7,200, showing a deficiency
of 2,400 ; the corresponding prices were 38s. and•sls.
In November 1839, the consumption was 9,900 tons, and
in November 1840, it was 5,800, showing a diminution of
morn than 4,000; the corresponding prices were 38e.and 575.
In December 1839 the consumption was 8 300 tons, and
in 1840 it was 5,700, showing a deficiency of 1,600 ; the
corresponding prices were 371. and 535. It was clear
from that that the diminution of consumption arose from
the increased price. lie had last year presented petitions
from the metropolis complaining of the monopoly, and
stating that tl:e high prices which it caused led to adulte-
ration of the article, as well as to a falling cff in the reve-
nue and an increase of taxation. In those statements he
entirely concurred. He did riot believe that the people
of this country would be satisfied with the imposition of
fresh taxes while the revenue of the country might be in-
creased by an honest course of commercial policy.—
( Hear, hear.) However they might be met by the argu-
ment as to how particular interests might be affected, he
believed that the general prosperity of the country would
be most promoted by a strict adherence to the doctrines of
free trade.—(Cheers ) With regard to the argument of
the Right Honourable Gentleman, that he had been
taken by surprise, he would refer him to the debates which
had teken place fifteen years since. la 1825, Mr. lila-
kison, in bringing in the Mauritius Bill, had stated that
whenever the consumption of sugar in this country should
equal the production of the West Indies, and verge on
exceeding it, that there then would be no legitimate excuse
for maintaining the monopoly, In 1838 the then Chan .
cellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Spring Rice, on introducing
a measure for the equalization of the sugar duties,
had quoted the Noble Lord the Member for North
Lance \ hire, and the Right lion. Baronet, the Member for
Tarnworth to the same effect. How then could the West'
India interest complain of surprise ? Year after year for
the last fifteen years they had been warned that they
were not to look to the continuance of the monopoly.—
( Hear, hear.) Would the Right Hon. Gentleman fix a
period at which it would be more convenient for the
West India interest that the change should take place
then at present ?—( Cheers.) He would do no such thine',
I,:t the protection and the monopoly be continued and the
convenient time would never come.—(Cheers.) He felt
obl:ged to the House for the attention with which they
had heard him, and should not have trespassed on them at
such great length, had he not felt it his duty, representing
as he did a large constituency, to impress upon the House
how important it was for the interests of the community
that there should be a free competition.--(Cheers. )
Sir ALEXANDER GRANT had not yet heard of
any method by which it could be ascertained that the
rum imported from Jisdia was really the produce of the