The Sun.
London, England, 1841-04-29 00:00:00

with it a profit appearing upon the rate of .5/. What be
(Lord Morpeth) said was that it was just as open to them
to say that it should be evidenced by an occupation raised
at the net annual value of 8/. When ha demonstrated, as
even the Noble Member for North Lancashire admitted he
had done, that the test of profit above rent and charges
proposed by his Noble Friend would go very far to disfran-
chise the whole of the present constituency of Ireland, his
Noble Friend and the Honourable Member for Halifax
distinctly stated that they had never even dreamt of
making this their sole ground-work for the franchise
or constituency of Ireland, but they proposed after
the adoption of the words which had already been assented
to by the House, to annex another additional or alterative
qualification for the possesFion of the franchise. He then
stated that his Noble Friend's proposal of a test of profit,
above rent and charges, would not be objected to by her
Majesty's Government as a clear addition, but whenever
brought forward they would be happy to adopt it. They
insisteel, however, that that additional or alterative condi-
tion, should be a rating of the net annual value of 81., and
upon that, whether considered simply as the sole proposi-
tian, and as the sole condition for the construction of the
franchise in Ireland, or whether taken as an additional
and alterative qualification upon the issue of having a net
rated value of 8/., they had determined that the sense of
the House should be fully and deliberately ascertained.
Ile last Report of the Valuation Commissioners had
stated that it was impossible to ascertain exactly what the
rating would be while the tenure remained uncertain; and
such must evidently be the case, for it was clearly impos-
sible they could guess at the value at which the landlords
might be inclined to put their land. The Right
Honourable Gentleman had also alluded to the num-
ber of tenements which would be left above the va-
lue cf 51., and quoted the number of those tenements in
opposition to his ( Lord 2dorpetb'a) assertion, that the
proposed franchise would not greatly increase the existing
electoral body in Ireland. Now, the assumption of the
Right Hon. Baronet went to this, that all the holders of
tenements in Ireland above 51: were males; and that, in
addition, they were all possessed of such leases as wonld
entitle them to the elective franchise.

Sir R. PEEL dissented from the representation made
of his sentiments by the Noble Lord.
Lord MORPETH wa3 at a loss, then, to understand
for what purpose the Right Hun. Baronet had made the
quotation. The Right Hon. Baronet had said that he had
not sufficient information either to propose a franchise him-
self, or to assent to any one which might be proposed by
her Majesty's Government. All he could say was, that
they had not been chary either in collecting or producing
all the information within their reach ; but he had all
along contended, from the very nature of things under the
Poor-law, as it exited in Ireland, that it was impossible
they could legislate upon fult information durthg the course
of the present Session ; he would remind the House that
they had not undertaken the task to remodel the existing
franchise until they had felt themselves compelled to do to
by the attempts made to remodel and recast the existing
franchise, connected as it was with the system of regis-
tration ; so that they had no option but either to bring for-
ward the present measure, or to allow them to alter the
Irish franchise in such a manner as would render it ut-
terly incompatible with anything like a theory of a repre-
sentative systerr.—( Cheers. ) _ _

Mr. Sergeant JACKSON' complained of her Majesty's
Government having brought forward a measure tor
placing the whole qualification upon rating, without hav-
ing obtained sufficient information upon the subject, and
laying that information for the guidance of Hon. Mem-
bers on the table of the House. He thought the Bill of
the Noble Lord ( Stanley) was a manifest improvement
upon the system of quarterly registration, which had boea
productive of manifest evil and inconvenience in Ireland.
Mr. H. G RATTAN could not too strongly condemn
the course taken by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman op-
posite, in now asking for further information.—(Cheers.)
It was altogether a political fame. The Noble Lord
below him was not the man to extricate any country—cer-
tainly not to extricate Ireland from a political difficulty.
After six hours' discussion, the Noble Lord had been un-
able to get into the pith and marrow of his subject, and
he had got through that discussion with the satisfaction
only of a single admirer.—(Cheers and laughter.) The
whole proccedingawas a shameful, base, political juggle—
(Cheers and laughter)--which could amuse none but the
avowed enemies of Ireland.—(Cheers and laughter.) He
did not think that any blame ought to be attached
to the individuals who had brought forward this Bill.
This great question was kept as a ball, to be thrown
about as the interests or prejudices of parties might di-
rect. The proceedings of that night would be read in
history. The conduct of the Noble Lord would be seen
with astonishment, and with still more astonishment that
of the Right Hon. Baronet. The Right Hon. Baronet
had said that Ireland was his only obstacle, and here
were two modes by which he might surmount it, but be
would net adopt either. He had not the courage to do
so. If he had his Gallant Leader beside him, instead of
the Ithuricl (Lord Stanley) at his side, he might start
up, not in a fiendish shape, but in that in which he gave
emancipation to the Catholics, and gave liberty to the Ca-
tholic, the Protestant, and the Dissenter. Gentlemen
might treat this subject as lightly as they pleated, but so
help him God, be ( Mr. H. Grattan) would never con-
sent to abate one tittle of that liberty which was the
birth-right of the people of Ireland, and in defence of which
he was determined to risk everything but his character and
honour.—( Cheers.)
. . .

The fluuse than resolved itself into Committee on the
Bill.

Oa its being proposed in clause 2 to insert tho words
" fourteen years,"

Mr. HUME said he wished to ask whether it was in-
tended to give to the people of Ireland the franchise that
ought to be given, and which m;ght be seemed to them,
or only such a franchise as they could exercise at the wish
of another ? The Noble Lord, tbo Member for North
Lancashire, had said that he hoped the Irish landlords
would exercise the same influence over their tenants ns
was exercised by the landlords in England, and that the
landlords Lad a right to refuse leases if the tenants would
not come to some arrangement with respect to their votes.
What was this clause, after such declaratiene, but a mode of
robbing the present possessors of the franchise of their votes?
The Noble Lord below him, on the 4th Feb. made use of
these words, " I feel too strongly attached to the princi-
ples of popular liberty not to desire that the great body
of the people of Ireland should feel that the majo-
rty of the Members sent from that country to
this House expressed their feelings."—( Loud cheers.)
But it appeared to him (Mr. flume) that the Noble
Lord and Hon. Members on both sides of the House held
out expectations to the people of Ireland which they bad
no intention to realise.—(Cheers.) How was it possible
that the people of Ireland should be satisfied with the
present state of the representation as compared with that
of Scotland and England ?—(Cheers. ) In these countries
it appeared from the returns that every one grown up man
in five had the power of voting for a Member of Parlia-
ment to represent the district in which he lived. That
showed that in England and Scotland four-fifths of the
men were disfranchised. The Right Hon. Baronet op-
posite knew the discontent which that injustice produced.
—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet had, there-
fore, encouraged and supported the Government in in-
creasing the military and police force to keep down the
demands of the people throughout this island for pcliti-
cal justice.—( Hear, hear.) It the people of England and
Scotland were making great efforts to obtain a share of
the rights withheld from them by the unjust laws of Par-
ment, and he was happy to say that millions were now or-
ganised in those efforts, what must be the discontent
of the people of Ireland when only one in twenty had
a voice in the representation ?—(Cheers.) Did the Noble
Lord below him think that the people of Ireland would be
satisfied even if his clauses kept up the ratio of represen-
tation ?—( Cheers.) The population of Wales and Scot-
land amounted to somewhat about three millions, of whom
120,C00 were electors In Ireland, out of a population
of eight millions and upwards, there were but 98,000
electers.—( Hear, hear.) He said that the people of Ire-
land would be less than men if they submitted to such a
state of things.—(Cheers.) He thought a property qua-
lification was essentially erroneous ; but he did not object
to the Noble Lord's (Lord Morpeth) principle of rating,
which afforded a rational means of distinguishing a fixed
inhabitant from a vagabond. Not even the white slaves
of England, or the black slaves of the West Indies, had
so much to complain of as the people of Ireland.—(Hear,
hear.) The sentiment expressed by the Noble Lord the
Member for Northumberland, that the people of Ireland
ought to he represented by persons of their choice, was a
very pretty sentiment.—(Cheers and laughter.) But
what good was that sentiment if the man did not stand up
to his colours and give practical effect to it ?—( Hear,
hear.) He (Mr. Hume) was unfortunately absent the
other night.—( Cheers and laughter from the Tory benches. )
If he had been present he would have expressed his opi-
nion that neither Whigs nor Tories meant to do justice
to Ireland.—(Cheers, and a laugh.) Although he ad-
mitted that the Whigs certainly brought in an eecelleLt
measure, if they had left out the clause requiring a lease.
—( Hear, from Lord Howick.) lie had taken the trouble
to look to the qualifications under the English, Irish, and
Scotch Reform Bills, and he found that they were of 82
different kinds.—( Hear, hear.) Was it any wonder then
that there was so much difference of opinion amongst the
various tribunals which had to decide upon disputed qua-
lifications ? All the confusion arose from the want of
equal laws, which was of more importance to the poor
man than to the rich, because the rich man could afford to
purchase the expensive protection of the Courts. He en-
treated the House not to agree to the clause regarding
leaseholds. Let it be enough that a man should have re-
sided six months upon the premises from which he is qua-
lified. Ii they did that, he was satisfied the people of Ire-
land would be contented with seeing a disposition to do
them justice. _(Hear, hear.) He would now move to leave
out the word " leasehold."
The CHAIRMAN said that he must first read the
clause.
The clause having been read,
Mr. HUME concluded by moving that in the required
tenure one year should be substituted for fourteen.
Lord MORPETII expressed a belief that the amend-
ment would not materially diminish the dependence of
tenants on their landlords, and he could not, therefore,
support the amendment.
Mr. O'CONNELL thought that the proposition of his
Hon. Friend the Member for Kilkenny would not enable
him to obtain his object, as it would induce landlords to
give short notices to quit, and tenants could not then be
put on the register. He would move an amendment to
the effect that the franchise should be enjoyed in Ireland
on the same terms as in England, so that there might be
identity on the subject between the two countries.
Mr. HUME said that if, as was stated by his Hon. and
Learned Friend, his amendment would not attain the end
he desired, be would be ready to withdraw it.
Mr. C. WOOD expressed a wish that occupation
should be substituted for a leasehold tenure, and he was,
therefore, favourable to the principle of the amendment of
1 the Hon. Member fur Kilkenny.
Mr. HA WES also expressed himself in favour cf the
amendment.
Mr. PIG OT was opposed to the amendment. He
was of opinion that if it were adopted, it would lead to an
entirely new distribution of power in Ireland.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN supported the amendment of
! the Hon. Member for Ktlkenny. in calculating the cou.