The Sun.
London, England, 1847-05-18 00:00:00

of ten months, thirteen months, fousrtteteen
and eighteen months, and this was
conduct pursuedwae a a of things
existing, and this was
by men in the receipt of public money totheamountof
thirteen or fourteen hundred a year. Before he
con-
cluded, he would say, that if the Government were to
attempt to enforce the powers of this poor-law, they
would have a rebellion in a week. They could not en
force it against the rich, it was the poor alone whom
they mould so oppress. They should become the pro
tectors, instead of the oppressors of the poor, for there
did not exist a more loyal, a more patient, a more obe-
dient, a more industrious class upon the face of the globe.
And what they could have done to merit such treatment.
neither he nor any man could fathom. They had borne
their misery for thirteen years, let them depend
upon it the day of reckoning was at hand.
they had trampled upon them, they had deprived them
of their dbarest rights, and they could not now appeal to
them with that generous confidence which they could
have done before they inoculated the laws of England
with the accursed principles of Malthus. They would
have no right to appeal to them for allegiance when they
refused them protection. He would conclude by movin„,
that the Bill be read that day six months.
Mr. WAKLEY seconded the motion.
Mr. ROEBUCK—The Hon. Gentleman might do
much mischief and effect little good. It was very easy to
talk about the 43d of Elizabeth, the tyranny of the Poor-
law Commissioners, and iaalienable rights, withoutasquite evi-
under-
standing anything of the three subject: It w
dent the Hon. Gentleman had never read
etshet4h3adthoe wefEliuzald-
beth; he was quite ignorant of it, so
lay anything that he had not ever much
openedaso easy as to
the pages of
s
the Act that contained it. Nothing w
rant about what one did not understand,andnoothf a
nothing so
easy to obtain popularity by shama affectation
de-
votedness to the cause of
the people. Now he should
prove the ignorance of the Hon. Member. He wool,'
that the 43d of Elizabeth had not been departed
from. In the time of Elizabeth the convents were put
dowse ; the Act to which he alluded sprung from the
suppression of these religious houses, for they had been in
the habit of maintaining a certain number of poor around
them. They came to the door of the monastery, and
they received relief proportioned to their wants ; and
they might talk as they liked about the Reformation, and
" no Popery," and all that sort of thing—they might do
very well te be let off as cannon against one another
—bat thenosuld not controvert the fact of the immense
good whieW they conferred on the districts where they
were founded. Howes, r, after their suppression, a
number of sturdy beggars wandered over the country—
such are the words of the Act—and for these it was
necessary to provide. From hence sprung the 43d of
Elizabeth, which enacted that churchwardens should
be appointed, whose duty it would be to set to work
such children as had been deserted by their parents, an
also all such persons as were maimed or infirm, or who
lied no means to aopport themselves. They heard a
great deal of the rights of the poor, but what he desueed
was the rights of the industrious poor against the lazy
poor. These latter braved the authorities of the parish,
they came into the vestry, they demanded relief, and th.e.
p -or farmer was frightened out of his
he refused, his stacks were fired, his cattle were hough e
and he himself stood in terror of his life. The local
authorities were totally unable to deal with this growing
mischief ; they said, let us unite a numberdit c.
ot,
parishes, and let us put the authority at a distance
from us. Let there be a central board in
London, to whom an appeal can be made. And nets
what is the meaning of all this talk about inalienable
right? He remembered reading a perm in his boyhood,
'r Country Justice," he thought it was by Dyer, in
which- these petty feuds were happily painted, for ti
p ;et eiesesibed a woman lying-in in a cart, while two
parishes. were fighting almost which of them should re-
ceive-andanaintain ll:T.—(Hew, hear.) The advantage
of thialaw then was the ceniril autbority—it was whet
all desired; lent as ...eon aslD:tree men are seletQcl, as so n
as they enter Sotifetaet house they are marked out, and
there. isaeetsa trading politician who does not point his
finger at thetn rept-oach ; and then the Hon. Membsr
cones forward ahid hilke of the people of England, much
afterlho .faokirhl of giehree tailors in Tooley-street.
Depood, uptoia it .they vt'dald" never have heard of these
evils were it not fir the app detment of these three
Commissioners. With 0n or two eeeeptioas, those vrh
spike so load about the p >or-law ware those who were
most opposed to giving political rights. Some test was
absolutely necessary in order to enable a distinction to
be made between the idle and the industrious poor.
'rids test was found in the poor house test, nut
nothing was easier than to find persons who
were ready to find fault with this test, upon
all such popularity-hunting opponents of th it, test he would put the stamp of canting hypocrites. It
was considered by the law that that man who was con-
tent to come to th,, poor-house and receive relief was a
man deserving of relief. Nov, a great deal had been
said about the inalienable rights of the poor to relict
conferred on them by the 43d of Elizabeth. The Hon.
Member had quoted from Coke and Blackstone, but it
was his (Ur. Roebuck's) opinion that the Hon. Member
did no; know which of those great writers first wrote
upon the subject. Now, what was the meaning of in-
alienable rights? If they were defined, as the Hon.
Member said, by an Act of Parliament, then those
rights could be altered or removed by another Act, and
the Act abolishing those inalienable rights would be the
law of the land, as well as that which conferred this
inalienable -right. The inalienable right spoken of was
right to relief, but a relief to be given only by labour.
It was hie habit day after day to go into the habitation,
of hie poorer countrymen, and it was hislirra opinioe
that there were thousands of the people or this country
worse clad, worse fed, and worse housed than those why
were taken wider the protection of the poor-law, not-
-withstanding the Hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr.
Wakley) had ventured to call the poor-houses a den.
A poor man said that he was unable to support himself,
he came to the state exchequer, and was told that if he
came into the poor-house his wants would be provided for.
But then came in the pathos of the novelist and the poet,
who said what a hardship it was to separate the wife
from the husband and the children. Why, that was a
thing occurring every day in the life of the soldier and
the sailor, and even the experience of Irish Members
would add another chapter to the patriotic pathos of
novelists, for in most cases they were compelled to
la ore, their wives and children in Ireland, but no Hon. Menthera were in the habit of standing up in that House
and in a burst of patriotic enthusiasm calling public
attention to their distressing situation.—(Laughter.)
He was quite aware that this workhouse test was a very
unpopular term, and then just at the close of the seventh
session of Parliament it was a very enticing subject to
lay hold of. He knew well the risk which attended the
course he was taking upon this subject, but as he had
commenced his political career so he inten-led to con-
Ai:me it in spite of all opposition to the contrary. It
was a matter of absolute necessity that a teat should be
provided for the able-bodied pour. Now, with respect
to the Poor-law Commissioners, he must say with
regret that they had not acted ace gding to the law.
They had quailed before another power. The Times
newspaper was the great point of all the opposition to
this measure, and the Honourable Member for Knares-
b ;rough was but a faint shadow, a sort of will o'-
the-wisp, of that journal—(Laughter) —and every
thump upon that red box, every
parenthesis, every
accent in the speech of the Hon. Member was nothiug
bat a. 'lad imitation of the Times newspaper. The arti-
cles iv' the Times newspaper were, however, written by
a genoleman conversant with the subject upon which he
wrote and acute enough to see that the Commissioners
were i.ot adapted to carry out the provisions of a good
and wlaolesome law. And this was the real cause of the
bad vuorking of the measure—the Government had
chosen :persons to carry out the measure who were unfit
for the task. Then the 43d of Elizabeth stated that
work should be provided for the able-bodied poor; but
it had boen said that bones were given to the paupers to
crush. Now was there not in the different classes of
society tinny persons employed in trades and callings
which,.:'if they were set to by the Commissioners, would
have rinsed such a storm as nothing could have crushed?
What vvas the trade of a nightman ?—(Laughter)---or
the type-founder, whose life was destroyed by the small
iron flings which entered into his system,—or the
painter, -afflicted as ha was with disease consequent
upon it e pursuit of his calling,—or the collier,
working many fathoms under ground in about
two fv t of space, in obtaining the coals
which re ie the cheerful Christmas fire ? What were :Ili
these hu as different species of that labour which was
the comnon lot of humanity, and by which man was to
obtain hit livelihood. Yet what a cry had been raised
about the =ploy-meat of the poor at Andover, while all
the great mans of the enjoyments of society is general
had been oeurloolieti. Was it to be said for a moment
that the idleyagabend at the gate of the industrious man
should be enntled to say " G me of your substance, for
you are rich" The industrious man would have a
right to say 41 have a e ire and children, I support
my family honestly; and why should John Thomas, the
id:e fae.ahond,' b.e entitled to claim my hard-earned
money?" But low was this John Thomas, the idle
vagabond, to be distinguished from John Smith, the in-
dustrious man? Why, what more natural, than to give
him work? Then it had been said, they were set to
work in a sled, •etsen to all the wiudows of heaven.
Not so, however, ace buildings were well built and well
ventilated. ! but, then, said the Hon. Member for
Finabury, it was a and the dress was a prison
dress. Well, be ;st, ogr be •
h it not, a prison dress, all he
could say wile, %at e dress, such as it was, was
much better and mucdttioors
Warmer than the dress of the
honest man Int of
but because it was of
a brown or gr y celour anhdeu'runioPorremh dress. Now ehat could then it was a
colour than to have a
prison
was, for orif
question depel:Jing upon the coloa cut of a coat.
the colour had
For so this cpestion really
uwoositidd not be
been red and tie dress uniform. then jilt
callud a prison Gress. But now the real
whet was to be lone for the poor of England?"Lwtast—
non. Members IN- Knaresborough and Pinsbury''brihze
forward some rtelsure upon the subject theniselvk only fancy n.3i11 d-awn up by the Mei. Member for
Kres What would he (Mr. Roebuck) give to
nab
set, re: out the :poor drawn up by the Hon. Member
f0i.11.-nareahor(,,,lL,;/ If :hat Tion. Member would only be
kind enoosh (fox th or. was no doubt that he had
some spark of kinn in him) to bringy
in =etch a Infos:o7e, he Or riolincl.) would undertaire
to route him rani(4 the door in a very few
iniantee. A :etonitnen of leoislative confusion had arisen
lati)- in all th E burly burly- of a Committee appointee
to implire into tie Law of S.dtkment.
Mr. P. BORTEIWICK—The law of settlement has nothing
tode• with the pow-law.
efn. ROEBUCK—That was now one of the bad effects of
sPfaki"CsameiliteiLs7w°7rwhhwite theh person was unacquainted,
loastilisto ,
es I' --grilehrwhea in v% here angels dared to tread."
0*!, tvg this, that he was speaking the semi-
: awn tsi" of thepeilp lid this country. The rational part of the
peep k. part of the labouring population, agreed
with him: 'lle (114* maintain the argument that men were
equally entitled tfileMef, whether honest or dishonest ; for when
they tart aine4hiteke might obtain relief—that he could de-
Imatid it, wimial.attie or unable to obtain work, he considered
S

that the glory of this country would depart; but when they
told him that it was the last resource of an honest man, when
he was wholly unable to support himself, that it was aid in the
season of need, and only on that occasion they would standd as
tion
the lords of the human kind. But if a man were in a condition
to say, " I ask, and you shall give," instea
popu-
lation, they would have a craving, subservient,ofasdaihgreeifiteedd
popostead of a race of
lation—a miserable race of cringing slaves,
ihne believed it was
upright and honest men--( Hear)—because
the first duty of the nation to maintainstich a character among
measure of relief, to give
greatour people, and, therefore, he askd themto tot maintain
desentihoigs
poor, and not to give to the undeserving poor, that to which
they were woeiereaanrortyeiongtitoled.
utofTthohesle who
aw,hand hitherto been entrusteddaoothadthatstedfastoess
of mind which was necessary for the proper carrying oat of the
law• and, therefore, he entrusted the Noble Lord to let no
personal feeling- enter into 'a matter which affected so vast a
number
of the industrious classes, and to give them a commis-
sion free from, and, consequently, above, all suspicion.
Mr. BANKES was rather surprised that the Hon. and
Learned gentleman should treat the opinions of the Hon.
Member for Knaresberough (Mr. Ferrand), so lightly,
when he himself was no great authority upon pub-
lic matters of this kind; but when he taunted
the Hon. Gentleman wished not to bring in a Bill as expres-
siveof his views; he merely repeated the taunt which the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government had thrown out
at the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the other night.—( A
laugh.) The only difference in the new Commission would be,
that it would be the same as of old, with the addition of more
honour to those who would comprise the body, inasmuch as its
members would have seats in that House ; but this must be
viewed in a constitutional light, and it was well to do so at the
outset. He feared the Noble Lord, who he admitted was op..
pressed by business, had not had time to look into this Bill
and into others which had been recently introduced with the
sanction of the Government. For instance, the Health
of Towns Bill and other Bills, which would create
a number of new offices, but the Health of Towns Bill had
been proved to be an useless measure, and that it would in-
terfere with private rights and private property, and the Noble
Lord had not been able to dine with his constituents until he
had told them that the city of London would be exempted
from the operation of the Bill, and subsequently he had ex-
cluded other metropolitan districts.—(Hear, hear.) The new
Prison Bill, which was of this kind of measure, would create a
number of new officers who would supersede those who had
been entrusted with the government of the poor in their respec-
tive localities for many years.—( Hear, bear.) Swift in his
" Advice to Servants," said, " spend all your master's income,
because the more you cause him to spend, the more he will be
respected"—(Laughter)—and the Noble Lord seemed to act
upon this principle, and to get rid of any surplus
by creating new offices to spend it upon. Thus he had pre.
pared two new placemen in connexion with this Bill, shortly
after the proposition to appoint a new railway commission had
been submitted to the House.—(Hear.) He (Mr. Bankes)
had always considered that the body which had the manage-
ment of the poor should be represented by one member of the
body in that House; but do not let two of the present body
be so elevated, because the nation was dissatisfied with them.
LWohrdsy nooft
thaheveAtdwmoiroaflttyh,eorLtowrodsofofthteheßoTarredaosufryo, of the
by the
r.B)ill.HeHcoenlodbnj
sup-
port roefothree,
snaking
itohgeseof reasonsrladtwwn Ordnance?—
(Laughter.) nboc
enctitedthet
Commislseio.mnetrise,aiincotmhmeiirssoiowonerachhaadmbarisle,dantod
gc v
en ssi a
td rs edf c
ihoant
the Eccu
in this respect, notwithstanding the Attorney. General had
quoted that body as an instance of success in the forming of
general rules. He saw no reason, therefore, why any
alteration in the laws relating to the poor should not
come under the revision of the House.—(Hear, hear. )
He did not think it would be even approved of in this House
to make measures without due consideration of the circum-
stances of these measures. The great benefit of this measure,
asserted by the advocates of the measure was, that it would
unite all classes; but the present law, did not effect
that object. The petition he presented was in conformity
with these views. If they persisted they would render the measure most unpopular. He would propose the second read-
ing of the Bill.
Sir G. GREY said that he would trouble the House
(with a few observations on what had fallen from the Hon.
Gentleman. The Hon. Gentleman said that his greatest
difficulty W3S founded on the amount of new patronage which
this Bill bestowed' on the Government. His patriotism had
drawn him away from the sanatory considerations attached to
the Bill. But he could assure the Hon. Member
that the patronage of the Crown would, in a pe-
cuniary, as well as official point of view, be dimi •
nished instead of any thing else, for several offices which
had before existed, were now abolished, and of this he was
anxious to inform the Hon. Member, in order to allay his
anxieties ; because he seemed to think that we had better go
on with 111th and fever, rather than create a few new officers,
who are to inspect the health of towns. The same objec-
tions, however, did not extend to the Prisons' Bill. But
lie was surprised that the Hon. Gentleman did not support
the measure, seeing so few points of difference existed between
them. He (Mr. Bankes) supported the Act of 1834. He
was also in favour of a central authority, and considered that
they should be represented in that House. Holding such
opinions, be was surprised that he had not voted for the Govern-
ment, instead of for the Member for Knaresborough.—
( Hear, hear.) Her Majesty's Government had come
to the opinion that it was better to have a responsible body re-
presented in that House, than have them suffer from the im-
perfect vindications of the officers of the Crown. They were
also told that it was too late in the session to intro-
duce such a Bill. He was very happy to hear that it
was late in the session; but he would ask, looking back on the
mode in which the last three months had been spent, was
it possible that it could have been introduced earlier ? however,
the Hon. Gentleman had told them to withdraw the Bill, and
that there was plenty of time to introduce another.—(Hear,
bear.) But whether it be late or early his Noble Friend near
hhadichsttahteedmienutuhree eharaldy
beenpart
of the
founded,
s o session,t
thath e principlesthere
had
honnns;
been plenty of time for consideration.
Colonel SIBTHORP said that if the Hon. Member for
Knaresborough divided the House upon his amendment, he
would be very happy to vote with him. The Bill did nothing
more than change the names of parties, and they had no inti-
mation of what was to be the salary of the president or in-
spectors—whom he would rather call spies—nor even
of their number. When once a Bill received thet
second reading in that House, it might be considered as
booked_( Laughter.) A few Members attended the Committee
This was known to every Member, even of one year's standing
in the House; he, therefore, protested against the Bill, which
was one got up at the latter end of the session ;_ it was an ad
caplandean measure, such as was the Health of Towns Bill, for
the Government only desired to have the people say—
" See what luminous fellows we are."—(Loud laughter.)
He had seen so many strange things go on—( Laughter)—that
he believed Government patronage was only intended for the
purpose of giving rise to a host of needy expectations—
(L ai:liter.) He (Colonel Sibthorp) knew a good deal of life
—( Great laughter)--he heard out of doors a great deal of hard
times, and a scarcity of money, and, as an Hon. Friend re-
minded him, of Exchequer bills at a discount.—(Hear, hear. )
And they were to have a Commissioner. Was he a guardian
to sit down with a fellow—a Government inspector or spy—
(Great laughter)—who came down to see what they did—
( Roars of laughter)=--a fellow who would talk to him—
(Laughter)—and say, " I'm your inspector. If you disobey
me, woe betide you." Me! what a fellow, sent down in
Government pay—a fellow dressed in Government livery.
(Roars of laughter.) He (Colonel Sibthorp) had a sort of
honest pride--(Hear, hear)—that as a poor-law guardian,
and as a 'Member of that House, he was above the
fellows that Government might send down to
rule them. He considered that the Bill which
the Government now attempted to bring before them, was
another of a piece with the Health of Towns Bill, which
exempted London and St. Giles's, and Alarylebone ; but the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government told them that to
touch on London was dangerous ground.—(Laughter.) The
Ministry dined there—(Continued laughter)—and therefore
the city of London was holy ground. He should support the
motion of his Hon. Fr:end Mr. Ferrand, because he was one
of those persons much wanted in that House. He was an
honest man.
Mr. CHRISTIE moved the adjournment of the debate;
which was agreed to.

LOAN DISCOUNT BILL.
Mr. SPOONER wished to know when the Government
were prepared to take the Loan Discount Bill for the third
reading.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER proposed to
take it Cc. Thursday next.
•
Mr. WAKLEY said that the country expected •ry
diferent poor-law from that which had been inptroduced-a, aend
he thought, therefore, that time should I,be given for an
expression of feeling upon the subject. He considered that
the Loan Discount Bill should be taken first, and the Poor-law
Bill afterwards.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that with regard to the Loan
Discount Bill, it was desirable to get it through the House
before the Whitsun holidays. He believed that no opposition
was offered to the Bill on principle, however much might be
objected to it in detail, and he should therefore wish to
take it as early as possible.
SCOTCH REGISTRATION BILL.
In answer to a question from Mr. Oswald relative to the
Registration (Scotland) Bill.
The LORD ADVOCATE said that the Bill would be
)rought forward at an early period.
Mr. LOCKHART regretted that in accordance with the
universally expressed opinion of the Scottish people, the Bil,
was not given up altogether.
Mr. FOX MAULE trusted it would not be given up, be-
cause when he recollected the Prisons Bill, which he had him-
self introduced, he feared that the only objection which existed
was on account of a little expense.
Mr. FORBES said that great opposition was manifested to
the measure in the county which he represented.
Mr, F. MACKENZIE regretted that it was the intention
of Hon. Gentlemen opposite to go on with the Bill.
He would not deny that the present system of legislation in
Scotland was imperfect, bat he did maintain that a far less corn-
bersome, and a far less expensive system could be dis-
covered. He should, therefore, move that this Bill
be committed that day six months.
The galleries were then cleared for a division, but none took
place, and, on our return to the gallery, we found
Mr. C. BRUCE; protesting against the principle of the Bill
as it at present stood. He thought this Bill had been brought
out at an unseasonable hour, and the further discussion upon
it ought, therefore, to be postponed.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he would consent to take the dis-
cussion upon the Bill on the 31st of May, if there was time
for doing so, after disposing of the Irish Poor-law, which
would then have come down from the Lords. Should it
happen there would not be time, he would propose to take the
discussion on Monday following.
Mr. FORBES MACKENZIE was glad the Noble Lord
had made that concession, because it afforded a sufficient in-
ducement for him to withdraw his amendment.
The Bill then went through Committee.
The Burgage Tenure (Scotland) Bill and the Crown Char-
ters (Scotland) Bill went through Committee.
The Drainage of Lands Bill was postponed till Friday.
SEDUCTION AND PROSTITUTION SUPPRES-

- ------ ----siciis BILL. -- - - ----- -
Mr.'SPOONER moved that this Bill be read a first time.
Mr. C. BERKELEY objected to the Bill being proceeded
with at that late hour of the night, and if the Hon. Member
;ersisted in his motion, he would move as an amendment that
: : 'oPsi thle i
thats do
oh now
9 SIBTHORP
113 jae e it
° olrf n
the i roduetion of a clause in the Health of Towns Bill.
The House then diviage.a. suggestedßnigthot hbies
aNttoebieleedFbryietnhde oinp--
in..w5..;.:in...t.;:.e....2.7...b..!..r.5..7....
!!!!!!!!
For the amendment'
t
Aga:nst it ....
.11,v1isaijoonrittoyok
place iniinedinamteel;%lte-r.: ... n—thse3motion
Another di
that this debate be now adjourned.
For the amendment ............ ... ...
Against it ........ ..... 7
................. 58
....
Majority for non. adjournment...
When we were admitted we found ...... —5l
Colonel SIBTHORP addressing the House. H„ske
what hindered the chief officers of the City of London frpi:
sweeping out the soilandhiempnueraitlyth
of
from the
s mßieltir.opollih%
t
City must be doubtpure—no
What aided that great Act,
pure. He suggested that the
Bill should be met by a clause in the Health of
object of this
Towns'
Government. Bill.
1-1
He
_e thought it would be better in the hands of
the moved that the Bill should be read this
day six months.
On the question,