The Sun.
London, England, 1823-05-10 00:00:00

SILK AIANUFACTURERS,

WILSON presented a petition from the Silk Mer-
chants,T Traders, &c. of the City of London, Westminster, and
the county of Middlesex, praying for the repeal of the Act
called the " Spitallield's Act," which threw may obstacles in
the way of their trade. It was impossible they could compete
with foreign countries, or the other parts of the kingdom, un-
less these restrictions were taken off their trade.
Mr. RICARDO observed, that it must be matter of sur-
prise that an Act like this for the regulation of the price of la-
bour should exist in the year 1823. Not the least inconveni-
ence of this Act was, that it-forbade the use of improved ma-
chinery, and in every respect shackled the efforts of the master
manufacturer to better himself in his business.
Mr. NVALLACE thought the distinction created by this
Act was most unjust and injurious, and was happy to think
that the presentation of this petition might have the effect
`of blotting from their Statute Book an Act which was a
disgrace to it. —Meer, hear !)—The manufacturer was unable
to avail himself of the fall in the price of labour; and one
of the consequences of this was, that the silk trade was a fall-
ing trade, whilst the consumption of silk was increasing in the
country.
Mr. lIUSICISSON entirely concurred in the view talcen by
the Hon. Member for Portarlington on the subject of this Act.
His attention had been called to these restrictions lately; and
the only reason why he had not before come forward to express
his opinion in the shape of a legislative proposition was, that
he had found great difficulty in convincing the workmen of
Spitalfields that it was to their interest to repeal this Act. He
hoped, however, he should in the end succeed in convincing
them that if this were not done, their trade must be transferred
to other districts, and they be forced to migrate from their pre-
sent situations. He begged.to say that he had already made.
up his mind to move the repeal of this Act;. and he hoped .he
should find an opportunity on Monday.—(llear, hear !)
Lord MILTON complained of the duty on the importation
of raw silk as equally prejudicial to the trade as the Act in
question.

- Mr. F. BUXTON said that he should feel hide duty to sup.
port the 13111 of the Right Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Alderman Thom PSON and Mr. C. SMITH expressed
their probation of the intention to repeal the restrictions so just.
ly reprobated on the Silk Trade.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS concurred in the general sentiment on
' this subject.
Mr. ELLICE hoped that the Right Hon. Gentleman would
so proceed with this Bill as to allow those interested in it a fair
opportunity of expressing their opinions. He feared that such,
however, was the general opinion of the House, that no effectual
opposition could be made.
After a few words from Mr. ILtitmo and Mr. Alderman
Bnv DOES, the petition was read, and ordered to be printed.
SA LE OF GAME BILL.
On the motion of Lord Cnau nonNE, the second reading of
the Bill was postponed to this day tbrtnight.
•
CAPE BB.ETON.
Mr. HUME moved fur various Papers relative to the Colony
of Cape Breton, upon which he stated it was his intention to
found a motion—Returns ordered.
Lord G. CAV.ENDISII presented a petition from Ash.
bourne, in favour of the abolition of Slavery in the 'West In.
dies; and another for the equalization of the dnties on East
-and West India sugar.—Laid on the table.

SCOTCH M A NUFA CTUR ES.
The House went into a Committee on the Scotch Linen Ma-
nufacturers' Act.
Mr. IIU.SKISSON apprehended there could be as little
doubt in the mind of the House of the impolicy of continuing.
the legislative regulations on this branch of trade, as they had
seen was entertained on the subject of the silk trade restrictions.
These regulations, however, went much farther. They went
to restrict the manufacturers .to the use of a certain number of
threads, and of every raw material used in their trade. A re-
ference, to the 13th of George the First, would chew the
number and nature of these wise regulations, and it certainly
would appear strange to many, why a manufacturer should 'be
restrained from putting more of any ingredient in his work than
was deemed necessary by the Act if he should choose to do so.
The same system existed in respect of the linen trade of Ireland,
but that trade had been brought up in that country with a sort
of fostering protection which would not allow of their interfer-
ing with it. He hoped, however, that she would benefit by the
example.—(lleac!)-lle should move for leave to bring in it
Bill to amend the several Acts regulating the Linen and
Hempen manufacturers in Scotland.
Sir It. FEROUSSON expressed his thanks to tli Right
Honourable Gentleman for the luminous and benevolent in.
tentions he had expressed towards one of the vital interests of
his country. •
Mr. MABERLEY hoped that trade would be so complete.
ly emancipated from the legislative shackles, by which it was
borne down, that there would remain he restrictions whatever,
but in the shape of an exception. '
After a few words from Sir H. Parnell,. Mr. Hume, Air.
Ricardo, and Mr. Huskisson, the motion was agreed to.
The House resumed, and the Chairman of the. Committee
obtained leave to bring in the Bal. .
ADDITIONAL JURORS.
Mr. BROUGHAM gave notice in the name of his HOn.
Friend the Member for Essex (Mr. Western), that he would,
on the 10th June, move for the adoption of some measurO to •
remedy the inconvenience felt from the want of Jurors, in con-
sequence o fthe addition to the number' of Circuits.
BRAZILS.
Mr. Secretary CANNING stated, in answer to a question
from %Ir. Hume, that owing to the divided state of the empire
of Portugal, no specific arrangement had been yet made relit-
tire to the fees of British Consuls in the Brazils.

TIIE RUSSIAN ARMY.
Mr. BROUGHAM wished to know from the Right Hon.
Gentleman whether there was any truth in a report which'had
very generally got abroad, that t►e Emperor of Russia had c? -
lected a very large army on the Vistula?

Mr. CANNING believed that an army had been collected
there, but whether it was or was not a very large one he could

not say.

AUSTOAN TROOPS IN ITALY.
Mr. BROUGHAM said, that although there was nc►thitag
veil, consolatory i the Right Honourable Gentleman's re Iy,
he would venture to put another question to him. The Right
'lnn. Gentleman 'tied on a former occasion stated, that prg-

land cliil not withhold bet consent horn the evacuation of I utly
by the Austrian troops. Now he wished to know from hint,
wbether those troops had left Italy, or whether they wetexot

tshtiallt
clianagtetrriyngp on titi Pot and ready to fall bs,:k again, 1.1041 m

, 111 r. CANNINO replied, that he believed 4411 the troolue
,•
which were to have quitted Xtaly had already evacuated thi

I..lekdtriontese and Neapolitan.states I whether they bad &DOC
c►fit of the 3filunese or not, he did.not know.
OF RUM.
Mr, BERN A I. wished for sqqe information ?dative to tote
seizures of Aim' body made by the Excise; tat the .pretence

that sateharine matter had been-used to colour them, which
prevented the Officers from ascertaining their strength.
Mr. BERRIES said, that the case had not yet come before
the Treasury—there had been no complaint, but the Excise
would in the course of its duty acquaint them with it.
UNION DUTIES BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed.
.SHERIFF ,OF DUBLIN.
The House went into a Committee in resumption of the In-
. query on this subject.
John Jackson called and examined—l keep a Tunbridge
ware and toy-shop in Dublin.
By Colonel Banitsr.-1 was present at a company at Mr.
-Simpthorpe's on the 17th December,' in which .John APCon.
'nell was present with Sheriff Thorpe, Graham, and several
others. I did not hear Sheriff Thorpe say he had an Orange
panel in his pocket ; and am sure such an expression could not
have been , used without my having heard and noticed it.—
_ Sheriff Thorpe never said one word on the subject of either
jury or panel. I was always nearer to him than Mr. Connell.
By Mr. JONES—I was at the house before Sheriff' Thorpe.
I remained near Sheriff Thorpe from half-past eight to eleven.
,1 mean my credit to- rest on that declaration. There were
..cards in this room, and I played with Mr. Sheriff Thorpe at five
and tens ; six composed the card-party, and the parties never
..changed. I heard all he said, unless he whispered. The Ladles
inatle a party by thernselves, none played at cards—there
were three. We did not play at cards all night, surd only in the
,:latter part did the Gentlemen mingle with `the Ladies, and all
through the night I,stood and sat so near Sheriff Thorpe as to
hear all he said, I feel conscious no one could have heard that
remark.
• Ry Mr. RonERT Sra 'Tit—There was a conversation about
the riots, but I did not hear him or any one say a word about
Marquis Wellesley. I did not hold the knave of clubs on that
occasion, butknew who did, when he threw it down he said,
" D -n the Lord Mayor," but I did not hear him says "I wish
1 had alick at him." The man who said this was a little men,
and a Lady said it was an extraordinary expression for a man
of his size. I think that observation was applied to the expres-
• - sion of " D—n the Mayor." I did not ►go to the door with
Sheriff Thorpe. I don't know if he is an Orangeman. I am a
..Protestant-ascendancy man.
By Mr. BROUGHAM—There were six Gentlemen and three
Ladies present. There was a good deal of conversation. We
chatted about fifteen or twenty minutes before we sat down to
--play cards. We were there to pay a visit to an old acquaint-
.atice. In the first part of the evening the Ladies were apart,
"and had a conversation, such as I can't tell--such I suppose as
Ladies usually have. Sheriff Thorpe, during the whole of the
fifteen minutes, was within one of me, and that was Mr. Gra.
ham. A question was asked by me of Graham about the bot-
tle, anti that fixed in my memory the relative situation of the
Gentlemen. When we sat down to cards, Graham Was on my
right, on the left Simpthorpe, and Thorpe on the right of Gra-
ham, and Mr. Connell on the left of Simpthorpe. They some.
times all of them spoke at once, and the conversation was not
',connected. My attention was not drawn to one more than
another.
By Mr.'PeusekETT-4 think it impossible any one could
have said any thing in that company without my hearing.
By Mr. Got; LBURN—I did not hear the Lord Lieutenant's
name mentioned. I did not hear any one say, " I wish the
'Devil had the Marquis Wellesley."
By Sir G. HILL.—My hearing a few days afterwards what
Mr. Connell had said, called my attention particularly to the
:relative position of the parties, and all thatpassed there.
By Mr. Alderman Tnostesoisr—l paid particular atten-
tion to the way in which the parties stood, because I was inte-
rested in hearing about the bottle. I know that Mr. Connell
made use of a gross expression about the rioters, but that 1 can-
not remember.
By Mr. BROUGHA ar—Sheriff Thorpe was in the room when
I came, hut I don't know how long lie had been there before
' -rue. ' I said before, that he came in after me. I recollected all
the matter in consequence of the gross expression of Mr. Con-
nell,.on my question to Graham,- about the throwing of the
bottle; but I don't remember the expression nor the answer.
Witness went away after Mr. Sherlfrrhorpe, who went away
• accompanied by his wife.
The examination was then continued by Mr. F. BUXTON
. and Mr. SYXXS—On being questioned as to the grossness of
expression which had been mentioned, witness said he con.
littered all expressions to be gross which were not grammati.
cally correct. He, however, by no means meant that the
~.. character of his whole testhnony should rest on the accuracy of
that answer:
. Examined by Mr. BROWNLOW—Witness said, that if Mr.
%Sheriff Thorpe hail declared that he hail the panel in his
.:.pocket, he should have considered that a gross expression.
The next witness called was Wm:Graham.
. 'Examined by Colonel BARRY—Witness was a printer ; was
, In company with Sibthorp •on the 17th of December, shortly
after the riot at the theatre, at Sibthorp's house. He named
. the persons who were there, as the other witnesses had done.
Mr. Sheriff Thorpe was in the room before him ; witness be-
. tiered that he was in the room before Mr. Connell; when lie
went in the Ladies were by the fire—the Gentlemen were near
• the piano. Did not remember Mr. Sheriff Thorpe's making
' use of any expresSion like that which bad been mentioned
respecting the panel; thought if he bad it would have at.
-tracted Ins notice • no such expression was used in his hearing.;
if it had been dada in the common tone of' conversation he
roust have heard it. Sheriff Thorpe left the company before
`witness ; he had forgotten whether lie (witness) or Mr. Connell
...left the room first. After witness left, the sheriff and Mr.
- Connell were not together.
By Mr. Iluoucittax.—A bill of indictment had been pre-
Terred against witness. He had not been tried; the bill was
'ignored. Witness came here last Friday; had seen the other
. 'witnesses ; might have spoken abusively—very abusively of
Ahern; knew Serjeant Henries; it was not true that he bad
said " witness deserved to be ducked," but lie said, that " if
witness were heard to make use of certain expressions which
escaped him, he might be ducked." The expressions which
he (witness) had used, were not directed against the witnesses
but generally against people of bad character. It was on this
that the remark was made, that " if he were heard so to ex-
press himself, he might be ducked." When in the witnesses'
room, witness had a cane in his hand ; be had no sword.stick ;
be had nothing of the kind of his own; he might have had one
in his hand belonging to another person ; he had no doubt that
he had; he might have been flourishing and brandishing it
about in the witnesses room, whoever it might belong to : lie
might have said, that " lie would do some execution with that
• • stick before lie left London."
The CHAIRMAN here remarked, that the witness did not'
seem to have a correct idea of the place where be Was standing,
• or of the importance of this inquiry. He admonished him to
~ give more proper, direct, and respectful answers.
• Was.acquainted with Mr. Thorpe the Sheriffi Did not par.
• titularly attend to what Mr. Thorpe said at Sibthorpe's. The
-.company talked together in the usual way. There were three
Ladies there. They sat with the Gentlemen. Mr. APConnell
. was there. There was no conversation about who threw the
bottle at the Theatre. Did not' hear Mr. M`Connell say any
thing particular. Did not hear him !peak of any gross reflec-
tion. Believed they played at cards ; witness and Mr.
M'Connell, and Mr. Jackson, went away together 1 Mr. Hope
'had gone before. When witness went to Sibthorpe'e he found
• the party at table; he joined them at cards; the Ladies played
.. taste
By Mr. R. Smlr Li—When he went, Mr. Connell, Mr. Thorpe,
Mr. Sibthorpe, and Mr. Jackson, were at cards, he believed.
Remembered playing the knave of clubs, and said, " There's
-the Lord Mayor, and be d—d to him." That was all. No ob..
servation was made. Ho might have used the words he had re-
peated more than once, knit not on that night. He might on
--other occasions. He had been in the habit of frequently damn.
-ing time Lord Mayor. Had never d—d the Lord Lieutenant.
Hulled not wished him ill heaven or elsewhere. Heard nothing
avid against the Lord. Lieutenant that night. Nothing was
-said- about the bottle or the riot.
. By different hi embers- 4/Itl not know that evening that there
was a charge against hiin for a riot. Did not know of it till a
Week afterwards.
. Witness was ordered , to . withdraw. The officers of the
House were directed to kik) hint apart from the other witnesses.
' Colonel BARRY ligid, if the Bight Hon. Gentleman the
Attorney-General for Ireland had no objection, he could 'wish
to ask him a few quetitlOns.
Mr. PLUNKETT Owned, and stood up in his place to be
examined.
The Right Hon. Gentleman ideweified a letter which was
handed to him, as being his writing. The cause of hia'writing
that letter WAS an apprehension that the Mieriffof Dublin might
.not procure a fair panel. He was then isited,
. Would the Right lion. Gentleman conelder the circumstance
--of a Juror, being an Orangeman, sufficieet objection to hie be-
ing on the panel ?
Certainly, in toy mind that would be e sufficient objection,
-though in strictness it might not be a legal ebjection. •
Mr. WETHER ELL objected to the Right Hon. Gentleman,
• the Attorney-General for Ireland, being examined as a wit-
WO in a case where his own character and professional repute-
. tiou were so much implicated.
onel BARRY said he had but few questions to put: he
hit Apprized the Bight floneurable Gentleman of his purpose,
ril
All Wile had objected to them he certainly would not have
asked them.
Sir G. HILL thought they ought to know to what extent it
'was proposed that the examination of the Right Hon: Gently
limn should 'be carried. Any examination of the Attorney,
General for Ireland, on this' occasieil, . had his ,(Sir G. lii s,)
most entire disapprobation.
After a few words from Mr. WY tt it and Colonel , BARRY,
the examination was resumed. .
Q. I wish to know if the Right Hon. Gentleman has bad

the Rules and the Regulations of the Orangemen before him ?
A. I have had printed books containing the Orange Societies
rules, and extracts from their other books.

Mi. WETHERELL again objected to the examination of
his Right Hon. Friend.
Mr. PLUNKETT had no objection to be examined, but he
thought it right to state the limits within which he thought his
answers ought to he confined. He was willing to answer any
questions respecting the conduct of Mr. Sheriff Thorpe, but
he was of opinion that he ought not to answer those which had
nO.bearing on that subject.
Mr. WETHERELL objected to tub examination going on.
He had no doubt that his Right Hon. Friend would keep
strictly to the line of his duty in the answers which he should
give, but as his evidence would be viewed out of doors, with a
strong prejudice against it, bethought the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, implicated as he was in thig inquiry, oughtnot to be called
upon, to give evidence on one side or the other.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought the Committee as
competent to examine his Right lion. Friend as any other
Member of the Committee, but at the same time he considered
him to have a right to decline answering any questions which
might interfere with the duties of his high office. As far as the
examination had gone he saw nothing objectionable.

Sir J. MACKINTOSH thought the question put to the Rt.
lion. Gentleman by the Hon. Member who had thus far con-
ducted this inquiry. with so much credit to himself, was most
pertinent to the inquiry' and ought to be put. '"
Mr. A BERCROMBY was of the same opinion.
The examination was then resumed.
The Right lion. Gentleman under examination then explain-
ed the answer which he had given to the last question. He did
not know whether the extracts with which he had been furnished
were from the books of the Lodge 1612. He had no objection
to,describe the extracts with which had been laid before him,
the only difficulty which he had on the subject related to his
memory. He did not know whether he could recollect them.
The extracts of which he had spoken only contained the names
of individuals, acts done at various periods by the Association,
and things of that description.—Being asked if he had any ob-
jection to state whether those extracts were prepared by certain
persons of the name of Atkinson ? he thought he ought to de-
cline giving an answer to that question. Had a similar ques-
tion been asked with respect to any other persons, he should
have had the same objection to answer it.
" After a few words from Mr. R. SMITIT, Mr. CALCRAFT,
and Col. BARRY, the question was withdrawn.
John Crosby dreaves was then called.
A conversation then arose in which Mr. ADERCROMITY,
Mr. PLUNKETT, and Col. BARRY, took a part, on the order
in which it would he better to examine the witnesses.
On the suggestion of Mr. WT1414, it. was deter Mined to calf
in Thomas Sibthorpe and take his evidence before proceeding
to the examination of the witness already called. -
Thos.:Sibthorpe was then examined by Colonel BARRY.—
He described the company at his house on the 17th September
as it had been described by the preceding witnesses. Witness
did not hear Mr. Sheriff Thorpe use the words imputed to him ;
must have heard them if they had been used.
By Sir J. MACKINTOSII.—Witness was in the room the whole
evening. The Sheriff was the first that arrived; Jackson, he
thought came next, and M'Connel next after him. He remem-
bered no gross expression having been used. He remembered
some observations on the Lord Mayor and the exclathation of
" Bad luck to Hugh Fleming !' He also remembered that
the Sheriff had wished the Lord Lieutenant to the devil. This
was when he was going away. These words might not have
been heard by those who were at a distant part of the room.
He had not heard Sheriff Thorpe say that he had an Orange
panel in his pocket." He had seen 111`Connell about the 26th
or 27th Dee.; had spoken to him on the subject of this report,
and told him that he had heard no such conversation. Witness
was then very closely interrogated, to ascertain as the parting
words of the Sheriff respecting Lord 'Wellesley had not been
heard by some of those in the room, whether the remark said
to have been made respecting an Orange panel, might not have
been made without being heard by witness. The witness was
unwilling to admit this, and thought if it had been made he
Must have heard it. Nothing had previously been said against
the Marquis of Wellesley.
By Mr. R. SMITI-I.—Witness had been talking with, Mr.
Sheriff Thorpe the whole night. The Lord Lieutenant's con-
duct had not been remarked upon ; (lid not recollect what he
thought when Sheriff' rhorpe wished Lord Wellesley to the
devil; had heard no one censure the Marquis of Wellesley, or
wish him out of the country, or speak against him in any way,
till those words were used which he had mentioned. _ _

By Mr. SCARLET T.—Thought Mr. Sheriff Thorpe bad
joined in the conversation on the subject of the riot while the
party were at cards, but heard hint express no particular opi-
nion; he spoke merely on the facts; the conversation lasted
some time; the conversation was general; did not remember
any conversation about the traversers ; did not know that Gra-
ham was one of them at the time; did not have any particular
conversation with Graham that evening; Graham conversed
with Mr. Thorpe as the rest did; did not recollect where Gra-
ham sat he did not recollect that Graham and the Sheriff sat
next to each other; the conversation was so general before the
party went to cards, that it made no particular impression on
witness..

The witness underivent a further examination from Mr.
Bti TTERWORTY:r;"Mr. BRIGHT, Mr. JONES,. COL BARRY,
Mr. Sheriff'rpomrsow, and Mr. NOLAN, but nothing mate.
rial was elicited eli.e.t could be heard in the Gallery.
Witness waiirrdered to withdraw.

The CHAIRMAN here announced to the officers of the
House, that it was no longer nocetisary to keep any witness se-
parated from the rest,
John Crosby (*.eaves 'was called in and examined by Col.
BARRY. _ _

Witness recollected the riot at the theatre on the 14th De-
cember. He attended the theatre that night. Three persons
were. first taken up,. the two Atkinsons and Wm. Graham.
He did not commit them Wm. Forbes was apprehended in
the theatre by witness, taken to the watch-house, and there
bailed-under witness's sanction. He was accused of a serious
charge.
Mr. GOULDUILDI considered the course of examination on
which his Hon. Friend was entering, had no reference to the
conduct of Mr. Sheriff Thorpe.

Colonel BARRY thought he should he enabled to prove
that the examinations objected to was most material to the in.
quiry. He submitted to the Right Hon. Gentleman whether
after the latitude allowed in former examinations it might not
appear to the public that there was a desire in this instance to
keep something back which ought to be disclosed if the exa-
mination was stopped.
Mr. GOULBURN expressed his determination to do his
duty in that House, whatever might be thought of his conduct
elsewhere. He should have no objection to an inquiry into the
whole conduct of the Irish Government, if the House thought
this necessary.

Sir J. MACKINTOSH thought it desirable to limit the in-
quiry to mutters which connected themselves with the conduct
of the Sheriff:

Mr. BENNET saw no reason for stopping this examina-
tion after others had been so unnecessarily extended, and es.
pecially after the long examination respecting the CM of Sir
edward Littl eh ales. . . . . . _ _ _

Mr. GOULBURN denied that he had acted under the in-
fluence of any improper motive.
Colonel BARRY expressed his determination to conduct
the case in his own way. He should persevere in the course
which he thought right, unless the committee stopped him, in
which case he must submit to their decision.

Mr. PLUNKETT begged to remind the Committee, that the
instance in which an ex-officio information had been filed after
a billof indictment had been ignored by his predecessor, had
not been made the subject of an examination by him. He had
taken the liberty to state the fact to the House, and it had af.
.terwards been introduced into the pending inquiry, by a ques.
don put to the Clerk of the Crown.
Colonel BARRY and another lion. Member spoke against
stopping the examination.

Mr. WYNN thought it irregular, and was of opinion they
were not authorised to enter into it by the instructions the
Committee has received. The House, if this had been con-
templated, would have directed an inquiry into the whole of
the late transactions, instead of confining the Committee to an
investigation of the conduct of the High Sheriff: He thought
the Hon. Gentleman, Colonel Barry, had taken a higher ground
than he was authorised to take, when he declared it to be his
resolution to persevere. He did not see how the present exa-
mination could be made to bear on the manner In which the
High Sheriff had selected the Grand Jury.

Mr. BRIGHT thought the Right lion. Gentleinan, who had
just sat down, had mistaken the Right Hon. Gentleman, when
he complained of the tone he had taken, and his determination
to go on with the examinations. What he (Colonel Barry)liad
said, was that he would persevere laden the Committee de-
cided against...him. lie was of opinion, that the examination
ough I, 40 proceed. •
WYNN and Mr. Gounnua expressed themselves wil-
ling to withdraw their opposition to the examination if the Right
lion. Gentleman (Col. Barry) would engage. that it should bear
on the question before the Committee.
Colonel BARRY thought it right to guard against com-
mitting himself on that point. He expected to do so, but
it necessarily depended on the answers of the witnesses.--
He might not be able to prove that which be mail attempting
to prove.
The witness was ,again called in: Ile recollected the appre-
hension of 'Win. Forbes. He recollected the charge against
him. Public 'feeling in Dublin was that time highly exaspe-
rated, and Unsler such circumstances it was difficult to got 4