The Sun.
London, England, 1840-02-14 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 14, 1840.

ledge thst Government might possess as to its means
of meeting those difficulties?—( Hear.) It would not
be sufficient to tell them, acme months hence, that there
was a deficiency ; but they should know what was the
state of their affairs before they could take the important
and serious steps by which alone they could remedy them.
It was not his business to present to the House an account
of the financial state of the country. He only called for
materials on which the House itself might form a judg-
ment. He might, however, state, and he thought he was
bound to do so as an additional reason for granting the
motion he was making—he might state the estimate which
be was led to form of our financial condition from such
criterions as were then within his reach. He would give
the statement in round numbers, in order that he might
not trespass on the attention of the House beyond what
the real necessity of the House might require. He would
look back to the accounts of the last three years, which
accounts were made from January to January. He found
that in 1837 there was a deficit in the public revenue of
728,000/.—(Hear, hear.) In 1338 there was a de-
ficit of 440,000 L, making a deficit, for both years,
of 1,166,0001. In 1889, that deficit was augmented by
1,512,0001., making at the end of 1889 an accumulated
deficit of 1,678,0001. Under these circumstances, was he
not justified;n asking the House for a statement of the
deficit which might be expected for the current year?—
(Hear, hear, from the Opposition benches.) How long
could they wait for that statement, and was not every one
anxious to be informed with regard to it? He perceived
that there was at present an augmentation in the navy
expenses of bOO,OOO/. Now, be asked, whether that was
not a reason why the deficit of 1,502,0001., which had
becurred in 1339, mightinot again occur in the year 1840.
Suppose that 1,,a12,0001. deficit of 1839 should be the
same in 1840, they would then have to add to it the
600,000/. in the expenses of the navy, to which he had
already adverted. '1 isat. would make the entire deficit of
the present year amount to 4,000,090/. If to that
they added the deficit of the three preceding years,
the entire sum would amount at the end of the
present year to 4,678,000/. He was afraid, however, that
that we s onli a part of the difficulties they might have to
expect. He had been compelled io make more statements
by reason of the oppaeitino made to his motion. He had
not, however, adverted to the great gtiption of the Post-
office reform.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear??? from the
Opposition beaches.) Whatevei deficit might occur in
that department ehould be added to that he had alreedy
stated, and he would venture to say after the best judg,
silent be could form on the subject. The Wght Hon.
Gentleman opposite might porrect him if. he was wrong,
he would state from the best information he could ob-
tain, tlia the deficit in the Post-office during the present
year would :!rnount to no Icsa than 1,:.300,000/. or
1,400,0001. From an the information he could obtain, he
believed that the Post-office was not at present paying its
expenses. If they would add the, 1,200,0001 deficit in that
department toithat lie had already moritionod,they wetild h4vp
in all a deficit of nearly 0,000,000/. at the end of the pre •
sent year. Was that a state of things under Well the House
should remain silent ?—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition
benches.) Was that a state of things %%bleb they should
allow to pass by with quiet forbearance, and were they to
suffer the Right Hon. Gentleman at his own time and lei-
sure to tell them in the way he should think proper, of the
manner in which he was to meet those tremendous dia..
eulties.—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition benches.) Oa
the subject of the Post-office it was impossibio to say any,
thing without making those observations which he believed
were called forth by the extraordinary conduct of Govern.
ment on the question.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
That was a principle ingredient in the evils they had to
complain of—that was a wanton aggravation of their diffi-
culties.—(Hear.) In the midst of the deficits of 1837,
1838, and three parts of 1839, and in the knowledge of the
accumulated difficulties which those deficits would bring—
in the midst of all these circumstances they had chosen
such a time for a reduction in the Post-office.—( Opposition
sheers.) When Ministers had undertaken that extraordinary
proceeding they were aware of the disadvantages it might
lead to. Lord Melbourne, in introducing the Bill into
the House of Lords, had observed that " last year, and
indeed for the last two years, the income of the country
bad not been equal to its expenditure ; that this had not
arisen from any falling-off from the revenue, but was en-
tirely owing to a great increase in the public expense."
The Noble Lord might then have been asked if that were
the proper thee for venturing to tamper with the revenue
of the Post-office ? When such a question had been put,
the Noble Lord answered that " the very general feeling
and concurrence of all parties in favour of the plan, was
a matter which it was difficult to resist."—(Loud Opposi-
tion cheers.) That, then, was all the reason they had
assigned for that aggravation of their difficulties. Why
did not the Noble Lord come down to Parliament and
state his objections to the measure ? Could he have had
any difficulty in doing so? He knew perfectly well that,
by resisting an unreasonable proposal, and that by telling
Parliament that be was pressed from without, but that be
looked to the support of the gentlemen of England—( Hear)
—he should have known that, under these circumstances,
the gentlemen of England would not have been indisposed
to support him.—(Loud Opposition cheers.) It would
then have been sound and politic of him to refuse the
making of so dangerous an experiment. He would not
have objected to that regulation, if the finances of the
counti y were in a more favourable condition. He would
not have objected to burden the country in some other
form, if they had a large surplus to rely on ; but at the
time the experiment had been made, and after the decla-
ration of Lord Melbourne had been made, the measure in
question appeared to him to be contrary to all sound, and
he should say, to almost all honest policy —( Opposition
cheers.) Another circumstance deserving of notice in
that transaction was, that the Government itself had never
been convinced that it was a good one.—( Hear.) Why,
then, had the Government yielded on the occasion ? What
was the security they bad gained by it ? Had they re-
luctantly made a compact, in order that they might
bold their places ?—( Hear, bear, and loud cheering.)
In bringing forward the measure there had been many
warnings against it in that House. The late Chancellor
of the Exchequer brought it forward with great reluc-
tance, and satisfied his conscience in the strangest way,
—( Hear, hear.) He said, " We shall lose a revenue.
but get a pledge."—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
There were other deficiencies, however, which he (Mr.
Herries) trusted would soon be filled up ; for nothing, in
his opinion, would be so lamentably pernicious as to con.
time the service of the country in a time of peace by
peace loans.—( Hear, hear.) This unfortunate state of
affairs bad not been arrived at without the strongest warn-
ing on the part of those on the Opposition Benches, who
bad always taken a prominent part in financial matters.
The Right Hon. Member for Cambridge University (Mr.
Goulburn) had constantly, on every Budget, warned
against the impolicy o' yielding financial reductions to
popular clamour.---( Hear.) And the Right Hon. Baronet
(Sir R. Peel) had, in a memorable speech during Lord
Altherp's time, strenuously exposed the imprudence of
baxtily taking off taxes which must be afterwards as hastily
se-imposed.—(Hear, hear.) Between 1816 and 1829 a
reduction of the annual public burdens to the amount of
3,200.,000/. had taken place, while at the same time
taxes had been reduced to the amount of 27,000,0001.
The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) had never suf-
fered the revenue to languish--be had never had deb-
elencies—( Hear, hear)—he had left to Lord Althorp a
surplus of three millions.—(hear, hear.) Lord Althorp
had the first deficiency, owing to too easy concession of re-
ductions. His Lordship, however, had always been a dis-
tinguished anti-surplus statesman. Still he had called a
surplus of 300,0001. " going too near the margin." Ile
had strenuously resisted imprudent reductions of taxation.
How boldly had he stood out against the reduction of the
Malt Tax 1—( Hear, hear.) Now it was impossible to
deny that the evils this displayed in the present state of
the revenue had arisen, not from any mal-administration
of the financial accounts—of the mere department of the
Exchequer—but from the wretched policy of the Govern-
ment for the last ten years.—( Loud cheers.) The pre-
sent Chancellor of the Exchequer of course could not
plead ignorance, from his having lately come into the
office—(`' Hear," from Mr. Baring)—seeing that the
Right Hon. Gentleman had long be :m the right hand of
the Exchequer.—( Hear.) In speaking thus of financial
embarrassments, he ( Mr. Herries) would not be understood
again as tracing them to any deficiency in the resources of
the country. He ascribed them to the mal-administration
of those resources—( Hear, hear)—to a bad Government,
defective in sagacity, firmness, and decision.—( Hear,
hear.) 'de was satisfied that never were the resources of
the empire in a better or more vigorous state. He re-
pudiated with scorn the idea so often foolishly given cur-
rency to, that England was bound down,. in a penalty of
700,000,0001., to keep the peace, to refrain from war.
He was convinced that there was yet wealth and resources
in the empire to retrieve the baneful effects of the injurious
course of ill policy and mal-administration of the present
Government.—( Cheers from the Opposition benches.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
he was quite aware that every Minister of the Crown must
be prepared to undergo that burden of imputation and in-
sinuation which he had been compelled to share upon the
present occasion with the Government of which he was a
member ; and he was equally aware that to an opposition
no other motives would present themselves for such a pro-
ceeding as this, but those of the purest patriotism, and the
most disinterested sense of duty.—( Ironical cries of " Hear,
hear.") Unwilling as he was to violate the rules of cour-
tesy between Members of that House, he must say that had
the Right Hon. Gentleman taxed all his ingenuity to give
the most embarrassment and inconvenience to those conduct-
ing the Government, he could not have succeeded better.—
(Cheers.) In the first place he wished it to be understood
that the only part of the returns moved for to which he ob-
jected was, the estimate of the produce of the Consolidated
Fund for 1840. He wished to withdraw no accounts—no
information—but that which would practically be fore-
stalling the budget—the estimate of the income of the fu-
ture year.—( Hear.) Now the Right lion. Gentleman had
admitted that his was no ordinary, no customary motion.
But he had attempted to justify it by accusing the Go-
vernment of a systematic suppression of their financial ar-
rangements in a systematic refusal of information on that
subject. Why that charge was upset by the Right Hon.
Gentleman himself, who had confessed that the Noble
Lord (J. Russell), at a period when a Minister would have
been most reluctant to make the admission, at the close of
the last great dehate—( Hear, hear)—bad candidly, fairly
avowed that the Revenue was under great embarrassments,
which it would be the duty of the Government firmly to
meet.—( Hear, hear.) Then as to precedent. The

Right Hon. Gentleman bad stated that Lord Ripon had
furnis ned the accounts he asked for. But in Lord Ripon's
time it should be recollected that the financial year com-
menced in January, not April, as at present..—( Hear.)
Then as to Lord Spencer having granted these accounts,
they had never before inen granted. on compulsion—never
on the pressure of an Opposition, but voluntarily—on the
Minister's own opinion, under the peculiar circumstances
of the times, that these accounts should be
furnished. Lord Spencer had furnished them in 1831.
Bra that course, in 1831, did not pass without censure, and
Gentlemen opposite at that time said that it was attended with
inconvenience.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman
had last of all connected his (Mr. Baring's) name with a pro-
ceeding which took place last yea-. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man said that the motion of Lord Ashburton for returns last
year was founded on the same principle on which he (Mr.
Herries) now asked for the information in question. But, in
point of fact, the ca e was very different. It was after the
financial statement had been made, his (Mr. Baring's) Noble
Relative said, " Let me have *the papers to enable me to fout.d
a statement upon them. Let me have, for the purpose of re-
ference in this House, the information which is already in the
possession of the public." But there could be no comparison
between that course and the present demand for a statement
before the financial year had terminated. It was truly futile
to say that the two cases were alike.—( Hear, hear.) Such a
statement had never been made in that House. It had never
been asked for by any Opposition, and, sure he was, that such
information as the Right lion. Gentleman now asked for, he
himself had never granted.—( Hear.) He (Mr. Baring) had
always understood it to be the doctrine of the Exchequer, that
the case of a nation was different from that of an individual—
that it was the duty of an individual to look to what was the
amount of his income, and then to regulate his expenditure ac-
cording to that amount—but that the case of a nation was quite
different,—( Hear, hear, hear, and a laugh.) He was glad the
Right Hon. Gentleman hid recognised his own doctrine.—
( A laugh.) A nation, as he had understood, was bound in the

Arst idace to look to the necessities of its public service, and
then to the mode in which the deficiency of its income might
be made up. Before the conclusion of the financial year the
Right Hon, Gentleman asked for an account of the income.

When the Right Hon, Gentleman was in office he said that the
nspeasary expenditure should first be looked to. But now he
asked for the amount of the income first. At the period when

Lord Spencer made an early financial' statement, 'that Noble
Lord admitted that it was very difficult to make any estimate
upon which the country could rely. But if it was difficult to
Gake it then, was it not mach more so now? The Right Hon.
entleman spoke a cemeeercial difficulty—but he would ask
had that difficulty Rassecl awe y? That depended on what the
preispapts of trade might be, and it was upon tleise prospects,
and epon the opening of the spring trad.;,, and the results of
that trade, the Minister of Finance must calculate the revenue
of those main branches the Customs and Excise.—( Hear,
hear.) With regard to the other' subject, which the Right
Ignt Cientlemariliad made his butt, a sense of duty compelled
him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) to resist the allure-
ments of the Rlght Host. Gentleman to go into a discussion,
from which that might be gleaned in argument which he declined
to give as formal information.—( Cheers from the Opposition. )
That j±ll¢ap PlanitillOtml him that it was not without such an
intention the lure was held out.—( A laugh.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman thought that if he could not coerce the Government
to give him in the returns all the premature information which
he wanted, the new Chancellor of the Exchequer might be se-
duced inte the eeremunioation.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh. )
He would not expose himself to the danger into which it was
intended to entrap him, and therefore he would not go into a
discussion of the sabject. He knew that he would be subject
to nurnerons attacks for this course a indeed, he saw by the
smiles of Gentlemen opposite that numerous attacks were in
preparation. But he would endure them all, so long as he was
satisfied- that he did his duty. He had not any returns by
which a calculation could be made as to what the proceeds of
the Post-offiee might be. In conformity with the pie 'ge which
he had given, he would give all the returns, which would enable
the House to judge how far the charge of systematic evasion,
which had been made against the, Government, could be sus-
tained. The course which he pursued in the introduction of
the reduced postage was adopted because he thought it his duty
to enable Parliament to judge of that system by having a suffi-
cient experience hefcre he made his financial statement. He
felt it his duty that they should have the experience of at least
some months.—(Hear, hear, hear.) There were plenty of
reasons why he could have postponed the introduction of the
low rate. He admitted that these were strong reasons. He felt
that he was bringing about the introduction in an imperfect
state, and without the necessary preparations for the conve-
nience of the public at large. But lie felt it his duty not to
evade the question, and that the House when it came to deal
with the finances of the year should have the experiment be-
fore it, in order that it might judge of the success of the
system.—( Hear, hear.) The course which the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite pursued had never before been taken, it
was contrary to the principle on which the income and expendi-
ture ought to be canvassed, and it was inconsistent with the
present state of commercial affairs. It wasimpossible for any man
to come at present to any fixed and fair estimate of what the
income and expenditure might be. He did not know in what
way the estimate could be formed. The Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer did not come down to state a mere statistical case, but
such grounds and calculations as the House might fairly go
upon. He did not know in what way the House or the coun-
try could rely upon any such estimates as were now for the
first time required. The Right Hon. Gentlemen (Mr.
Herries) had alluded to the debt of the country, and had taken
credit to the Government of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R.
Peel) for their reductions; he admitted that it had been in
their power to make reductions in the charge of the National
Debt. These reductions were made partly from the surplus of
Revenue, and partly by conversion of permanent annuities.
He did not mean to throw any blame upon the Right Hon-
ourable Gentleman who effected that conversion, but
he called upon the House to consider what the
effect of the alteration was upon the Governments which fol-
lowed. On the sth of January 1831 the whole of the funded
debt was 757,486,0001. On the sth of January 1839 the
amount was 761,347,0001., being an increase in the capital of
the funded debt of 3,861,0001.; and in the unfunded debt,
on the other hand, the amount, in 1831, was 27,271,000!., and
in 1839, 24,655,0001., being a decrease of 2,616,0001., taking
both the funded and the unfunded debt together. There was
a total increase in the capital of the whole debt of the country
of 1,244,000/., or of 2,244,0001., if he added to it the other
million to which allusion had been made. Such was the state
of the debt in the hands of Whig Governments but they had
circumstances to deal with which the other Governments be-
fore them had not. There was the addition of 20,000,000/. to
the public debt, not by any. financial mismanagement, but
for the purpose of conferring freedom upon their fel-
low-subjects.—( Loud cheers.) When the Right Honourable
Gentleman (Mr. Herries) told him that he must take upon
himself all the financial arrangements of his Whig predecessors,
he hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would be prepared for
the reciprocity, and that he would take upon himself to account
for the national debt.—( Hear, hear, and laughter. ) But if he
were to take blame for the additions which they had made to
the debt, he had rather take the blame upon him when the in-
crease had taken place for such a purpose.—(Cheers.) He
would be more content to take that blame upon him than to
have any credit which the refusal of the 20,000,0001. grant -
might have gained for him.—(Cheers.) But if credit were
given for that increase, then instead of an addition of 2,000,000/.
by mismanagement, the Whigs would have reduced the debt
by 18,000,000/. To hear the statement of the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman it would be supposed that a large addition to the debt
had been made by Lord Monteagle. But what was the case ?
In 1836, the funded debt was 753,550,000/. In 1840, it was
766,547,000/., being an increase of 7,997,000/. But sea what
was the state of the Unfunded Debt in this period, in which the
reduction of that portion of the Debt was strongly pressed upon
the Government. On sth Jan. 1837, the amount of the unfunded
debt was 29,954,000/., while in Jan. 1840, including the one
million to which he had before adverted, it was 21,688,0001.,
being a decrease of 8,246,0001., and if the decrease was placed
with the increase, it would be found that upon the whole ac-
count there was a small diminution in khe amount of the two
capitals. So far, therefore, from his Noble Friend the late
Chancellor of the Exchequer having increased, he had dimi-
nished the capital of the Unfunded Debt, always observing,
that during the time his Noble Friend was in office, that upon
30,000,000/. of Exchequer bills he had made a reduction of
eight millions. He would now shortly advert to the expendi-
ture of the country, as from all sides of the House on this sub-
ject the Government were subject to attacks. He must admit
that he had no complaint to make on th s subject against the
Right lion. Gentleman opposite—(Hear, hear)---but as others
might make complaints which the Right Hon. Gentleman had
done, he considere.t it necessary to refer shortly to some por-
tion of the expenditure of the country. He found for three
years previous to 1830 the grants for the army, ordnance, and
miscellaneous service averaged about 17,350,0001., and that
was during the three years of an Administration which cer-
tainly was far more noted for economy than any previous one
that Lad come from the other side of the House.—(Hear,
hear.) The average for a similar grant during nine
years of the late Government was 15,461,0001., so that there
was a considerable reduction in those years from the
amount i n the years to which he had referred. During the last
year, of which the Right Hon. Gentleman had said so much,
including the additional million on account of Canada, the
amount for those grants was 17,219,0001., which was considerably
below the average of the three years of the Government of the
Right Hon. Gentleman.—( Hear, hear.) Then with respect
to the collection of the revenue there was a similar reduction.
During the time the Right Hon. Gentleman was in office that
expense amounted to 4,875,000/., while at. the close of 1839
it was 4,042,0001., being a reduction of 833,0001. upon a sum
under 5,000,0001.—( Hear, hear.) There was but one point
more to which it was necessary to advert, and upon that he
was bound to say he had been considerably relieved from
speaking upon, in consequence of the statements that had
been made by the Right Hon. Gentleman. He alluded :to
to the prospects and state of the country. Now with re-
spect to that subject the Right Honourable Gentleman
stated that he considered the pressure but temporary,
and in that observation he (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) most entirely concurred.—( Hear. ) He looked
upon the prosperity of the country with a most sanguine ex-
pectation that the difficulty was only temporary—( Hear,
hear)—and as a proof of that he need only advert to the pro-
duce of the revenue from 1830 to 1839. In 1830 the pro-
duce of the Customs and Excise was 36,184,0001., while in_
1839 it amounted to 35,200,000/. The total revenue of the
country in 1830 was 50,000,0001., including everything,
while in 1839 it was 47,7440001., but then there was to be
taken into the account the vast amount of the reduction of
taxation that had taken place during that time—(Hear,
hear)—and when he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
found the revenue kept up so remarkably, with a reduction
in the taxation of the country to the amount of between six
and seven millions, he could xot but consider that the pres-
sure at the present moment was but temporary. But that
was not all, for it must be recollected that although a reduc-
tion of taxation had taken place to the extent of 6,000,0001.,
yet the public had had to pay, and had been able to pay, the
interest on the lean of 20,000,0001.--( Hear, hear.) After
thattmhieg hpthr
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to the Post-office question, he thought it was hardly
necessary to fight over again the battle upon the propriety or
impropriety of the reduction that had taken place. When that
measure was brought forward it was never concealed from the
House or the public that it was not an ordinary revenue transac-
tion, it was stated that important and great grounds alone jus-
tified it—that it was not a mere question of revenue, but it was
admitted that it would, on all hands, be a great blessing to the
public, not only in a commercial, but a literary and social point
of view.—(Hear, hear.) It had also proved a source of great
benefit to the clergy, from whom he had received more thanks

for the measure than from any other class of the community.
It was admitted that it vas a question of the utmost
importance to all. In ad4ition to all this, was there
not this most appalling fact, that from one end of
the country to the other, in every class and under
every circumstance, there was a united conspiracy to cheat the
revenue.—( Hear.) Was it not, therefore, a subject well worthy
the consideration of the House, when it was calculated
to give such great blessings to so vast a portion of the com-
munity, and to put an end to that cheating the revenue
which took place ?-- ( Hear, hear.) Much had been said about
the resolutions on this subject, which had been proposed by
his Noble Friend. He considered he was perfectly justified
in introducing those resolutions, and that he was entitled to
the thanks of the community for doing so. He admitted that
the words of the resolution, or the Act of Parliament, intro-
duced no new duty for the House Yo perform. The obligation
was to furnish for the public service what was necessary to
keep faith with the public creditor, and to give t‘i the esta-
blishments of the country a sufficient force to keep up its
honour, and beyond that it was not the duty of Parliament to
go. But if it should turn out that the House was so lost to
all sense of good feeling that they would allow the public ser-
vants to starve, and if they were willing to break faith with
the public creditor, then he admitted with the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite, that the pledge of his Noble Friend was
so much waste paper._( Hear, hear.) But he had better
expectations. However unpopular the task was, still, as
long as he held the office he had now the honour to fill, he
would never be found shrinking from his duty, however un-
popular it might be, in calling upon the House to do its duty to
the servants of the public.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. GOULBURN said, that his Right Hon. Friend who
had opened the present debate had so fully stated the circum-
stances upon which his motion rested, and the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite had offered so little to the attention of
the House, that he felt it difficult to do more than reply to
the two topics which he had introduced, and whick he thought
was an answer to the motion of his Right Hon. Friend.—
( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had told them, in
high-sounding language, of the necessity of keeping up an
equality in the revenue and expenditure, and also of upholding
the public servants. That was a principle that he had always
endeavoured to press upon the Government, and he rejoiced to
find the Right Hon. Gentleman op.posite, at the commence-
ment of his career, stating that he was prepared to act upon
a principle that everybody newt approve. The carry-
ing out of that principle did not depend upon
the House alone.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The Government
ought to act manfully in support of them, and if they did, there
could bo no doubt that they would be upheld ; but if a Govern-
ment was found pursuing a very different course, the House
would not only have to act up to their own. sense of duty, but they
would have to fight against the Govermnent. The late Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had made professions corresponding
exactly with those made by the Right Hon. Gentleman that
night. He had told them that it was essentially necessary to
avoid a deficiency in the revenue, that it was necessary to main-
tain the public servants, and that when there was only a limited
surplus, the reduction of taxation was out of the question. Yet,
before he left office he had abandoned every principle that he first
set out with, for he consented to repeal taxes, and left the
finance in that state, that the present Government itself had
thought it necessary that some new taxes should be imposed.
Now, what had that Noble Lord, when he was Chancellor of
the Exchequer, stated? Why, in August 1835, the usual
period when he chose to favour the House with his financial
statement—( Hear, hear)—that Noble Lord said this, " Let
the House not assume that it will be competent to me
to propose any remission of taxation. Would to God that it
was, for there was no part of the duty of a Chancellor of the
Exchequer more pleasing than to propose the remission of an
unpopular tax." But, then, with respect to the reduction of
taxation, he said, that without a bona fide surplus it was im-
possible. Such were the declarations of Lord Alonteagle in the
years 1835, 1836, 1837, and 1838, and yet in 1839, in the
face of a deficiency in the revenue of upwards of 4,000,0001.
sterling, he had come down to the House, proposed, and carried
a measure that did away with a source of revenue to the
extent of upwards of a million pounds.—(Hear, hear, hear. )
He was completely at a loss to understand the grounds on which
the Right Hon. "Gentleman resisted the motion of his Hon.
Friend. He had taunted th -se with whom he (Mr. Goulburn)
acted with having abandoned the principle on which they had
always hitherto proceeded. He denied that they had abandoned
any principle—all that was moved for was an estimate of the
produce of the Consolidated Fund.—( Hear, hear.) There
was a great deficiency of revenue, and they wished to know
how far that fund was adequate to provide a certain stirplu!

towards the remaining expenditure of the year.—( Hear, hear. )
One circumstance alone that had occurred gave them a right
to hare the estimate. Lord Monteagle, when Chancellor of
the Exchequer, had been asked how he meant to provide for
the interest of the loan of 4,000,0001. of Exchequer bills, and
his answer was, that he had a BPI for regulating the Bank
of Ireland, which, when passed into a law, would
give him 85,000/. a year, and that that would pay
the interest of the loan. Had the Right Hon. Gentleman

opposite forgotten that that Bill, like oilier measures of the
Government, was abandoned?—(Cheers and laughter.) Then
it had been said that there was`no precedent for the course
adopted by his Hon. Friend (Mr. Herries), and on that ground
was the motion resisted. Why, in 1803 an account was moved
for of the computed interest resulting to the Consolidated Fund,
from the alteration of the Customs. And in 1823 a motion
was made that there be laid before the House an estimate of
the probable future increase in the Consolidated Fund.—
( Ilear, hear.) Precedents were, therefore, in his (Mr. G.'s)
favour; and the House had now the extraordinary circum-
stance of a motion being made under circumstances which of
all others required that the Home should have a knowledge of
the state of the Consolidated Fund, and of a Government re-
sisting it on the ground that no precedent could be found in its
support.—( Cheers.) Precedent had little to do with the
question. The question for the House to deci 'e was this, was
it reasonable and consistent with the discharge of their duty to
their constituents, that they should have, early in the Session,
a general estimate of the produce bf the Consolidated Fund,
with a view to make up their minds as to the present
state of the resources of the country, and the degree of energy
they would have hereafter to apply to the subject, in order to
place the finahcial affairs in a proper state.-_( Elear, hear. ) The
lion. Gentleman had stated that they were not to expect the
Budget for some months, and therefore they were to wait for
months without knowing the state of the resource= of the
country.—( Hear, hear.) They were in a situation which, to
use an expression of a Noble Lord at the head of the Treasury,
was " extremely disagreeable"—(Laughterl—which meant, he
thought, when translated into terms less polished, of extreme
difficulty
.and danger.—( Hear, hear, hear.) If that were the
position in which they were placed, was it not advisable, he.,
would ask, to let the House and the country know exare,yHe, the
prospects they might look forward to?—(Hear, hear, y
like his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth)enter-
tained nu serious fears as to the resources of the country and
their capability to meet every difficulty in which they might be
placed ; but the Government ought not to refuse to lay before
them, at the earliest possible period, the exact posture of that
important branch of their financial affairs which the income of
the Consolidated Fund created. It was not at all satisfactory to his
(Mr. Goulburn's) mind, when he contemplated the future in-
terests of the country, to find that during four years of con-
tinued peace, from 1835 to 1839, no progress had been made
in the reduction of the debt of the country, but that on the
contrary, there had been an increase in the annual charge of
that debt, which amounted nearly to one million of money.—
( Hear, hear, hear.) The 20,000,000 i. compensation to slave
owners, and the expenses of putting down the insurrection in
Canada, had been alluded to, and it had been asked what
would the Duke of Wellington have done if he had had to raise
20,000,000/. ? His (Mr. Goelburres) answer to that was,
look at the revenue during that Noble Duke's administration.
In 1828, the debt was 777,000,000/. ; in 1831, 757,000,000/. ;
so that there was a reduction of the debt in three years
of peace equivalent to 20,003,000/. and if he had to
raise the money for the slave compeusatisn, he would
have done it without adding a 6d. to the debt of
the country, because he would have taken care to maintain the
sacred principle of reducing, during times of prosperity and
peace, the permanent debt of the country, in order to prepare
himself for exigencies. The Duke of Wellington had reduced
1,000,000/. of the annual charge, and left the financial affairs
of this country in a state that he would not be ashamed to com-
pare with the succeeding administration, or any other ad-
ministration. In 1835, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer
felt himself compelled to say that the reductions made by the
Duke of Wellington had been carried so far, that it rendered it
nearly impossible for succeeding administrations to carry them
any further. Neither he nor his friends had ever ienied that a
great reduction in the postage would prove a great boon to the
country. What they said was, " Don't abrogate one large
and productive tax, without providing for the deficiency."
They called upon the Government to propose some other
merns for keeping up the Revenue. Let them not rely upon a
mere pledge in the preamble of an Act of Parliament. They did
not meet the evil fairly; but in order to gain that little popularity
—(Hear, hear)—attendant on the passing of that measure,
they c-nsented to place the finances of the country in a state
thrt must render new taxes absolutely necessary--( Hear,
hear.) He contended that the country would look upon the
refusal of the information asked for by the motion of his Right
Hon. Friend, as an anxiety to conceal' the state of affairs—a
desire upon the part of the Government to conceal from view
their own miserable mismanagement of the finances of the
country—( Cheers.)
Mr. HUME was anxious to say a few words upon the ques-
tion before the House went to a division. The accounts asked
fir would not give a clear view of the state of the finances,
for they would not have any account of the capital of the Debt,
for the accounts asked for would not show what had been lost
by the conversion of the Three per Cents into terminable
Annuities. There had been deficiencies in 1837, 1838, and
1839. Would any man say that there would be a surplus
upon that year ?—(Hear.) Was it to be aupposed that with
our present relations with China, and with the Irish people
nearly giving up drinking whiskv—( A laugh)—was there a
chance of keeping up the revenuj? He calculated that upon
that head alone there would be a deficiency of half a million.
The great experiment in the Post-office was a noble one, and
even if the whole revenue derived from it were lost, it would
be still a blessing to the country. Still from all these heads of
revenue there must be a deficiency. Why then not look the
evil in the face ? They must come to a reckoning some day—
why not meet it at once ? He gave the Government credit for
not being hurraed on to extravagance by the Gentlemen on the
other side. Was there one of them, or of their party, who did
not call for increased establishments ? When did they ever call
for economy ?
Mr. GOULBURN—Yes, we saved 20,000/, the other day.
—( Laughter.)
Mr. HUME—Yes, but they did not vote for his motion for
21,000/., though he would rather vote for 30,000/. than
50,0001. any day, though upon principle he would have liked
the smaller sum. He for one had always seen, when a Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had plenty of money, he was
very extravagant—(Laughter)—he, therefore, was never
sorry when the finances wet e in a slightly deranged state.
Let them redu:m their extravagant expenditure, and
he feared not for the resources of the country.—(Cheers.)
He had always contended, and the result had shown that he
was right, that where taxes to the amount of one million were
taken off the decrease in the revenue had not been 200,0001., if
even so much. That was why he had been an advocate for the
reduction of taxation, because the revenue was little, if at all
affected, while the comforts of the people were materially in
creased. It was impossible to come to any satisfactory conclu-
sion from the returns the Right Hon. Gentleman had moved for,
but he had also a right to complain that the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had taken out of his hands a subject which he had for
twenty }ears been fighting for and claiming the merit of it as i
it were his own.—( A laugh.) There was some novelty in the
affair, however, because when the Right Hdn. Gentleman and
his friends wore in power, the course was to ask for a vote of
the House, for as much as was deemed consistout with this

honour and glory of the country, and then to provide the means
subsequently.—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Hume) had always
resisted that system ; he had always advocated the principle of
when the estimates were brought forward, stating the round
numbers, what was the probable demand, and what were the
mea"s by which that sum was to be provided ?—( Hear, hear. )
He must say, however, that he was surprised at thekCl;ancellor
of the Exchequer resisting the present motion. There was
nothing extraordinary in it, and if the Right Hon. Gent. only
sent for the heads of the Customs, the Excise, the Stamps,
and the other departments, giving them a few days' notice,
they would be able to tell him the probable estimate for the
next six, nine, or twelve months.—( Cheers.) Why if the
Right Hon. Gentleman wished it he (Mr. Hume) would make
the estimate himself.—(Hear and a laugh.) It would be only
necessary to consider in which of the main heads there was
likely to be any deficiency as compared with other years, and the
thing was done.—( Hear.) He did not see why objection should
be made on the ground of its being a factious question. If
it were so, the best means to defeat it would be to meet it at
once.—(Cheers.) Why should they not have the estimates
printed as they formerly were ? Every Member could then
see the accounts, and make himself master of the details with-
out wasting the time of the House in useless questions. The
information now sought for was reasonable and ought not to be
refused.—( Hear, hear.) He must say that his (Mr. Hume's)
apolication for similar papers had been more frequently refused
by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite than by the present Go-
vern:lent. Perhaps he had not pressed the latter so much.—( A
laugh. ) He admitted it.—( Renewed laughter.) Something
might be set down to his confidence in them, and there was the
hope of their improving every year, and his not liking to do
what would be particularly disagreeable.—( Renewed laughter. )
He certainly had not been so attentive to his duty in that re-
spect since he had sat on his present side of the House.—(lro-
nical cheers.) If the present motion went to a division he
should certainly support it.—( Cheers. )

Mr. LABOUCHERE was perfectly willing to rest his case
upon the statement of his Right Hon. Friend. The question
the House had to decide was a plain and simple one, and he
was the more anxious to recal their attention to it because the
earlier speeches of the evening were not made to an auditory
quite so numerous as those who appeared to have come
down prepared to vote in favour of the motion.—
( Hear, hear.) (The Right Hon. Gentleman alluded to
the Opposition Benches, which within the last half-hour had
become densely thronged, while the Ministe:ial Benches re-
mained comparatively empty.) The question was whether
the House wo ild impose upon his Right Hon. Friend con-
ditions as to the management of tha financial affairs of the
country such as had never been imposed upon any of his
predecessors.—( Hear, hear.) Notwithstanding the precedents
which had been quoted by the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site, if the House consented to grant that part of the return
objected to by his Right Hon. Friend, they would adopt to-
wards him a course such as no House of Commons had ever
before sanctioned. —(Cheers.) There certainly had been oc-
casions when returns like the present had been granted by
the Chancellor of. the Exchequer, but the difference in both the
cases which had been quoted to the present was, that in both
these cases the Government had been a consenting party. His
Right Hon. Friend had admitted that there were difficulties in
the financial state of the country, and that he was prepared to
meet these difficulties in the face; but whatever they were,
they would be materially increased if the House consented to the
present motion. In the case of Lord Ripon and the
Earl Spencer, the financial budget was not before the House,
but the repeal of certain taxes had been proposed, and, he be-
lieved, assented to, so that, in both these cases, the Chancellor
of the Exchequer felt himself in a condition to take so general a
review of the finances of the counts y as to propose a reduction
of taxation. He asked the House whether any ground had
been stated why the House should adopt so novel and unprece-
dented course as to call upon his Right Hon. Friend who ht,d so
lately assumed the management of the financial affairs of the
country, to force him to agree to the motion ? There was no
great difference on either side with regard to the finances of the
country. These difficulties were generally admitted, although
the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, as well as his Right Hon.
Friend, were agreed that there was nothing in it calculated to
excite any feeling of despondency, or even of alarm. At the
same time, it should be observed that the deficiency had been
accumulating for several years. The Government were pre-
pared to look their difficulties fairly in the face, but if they had
endeavoured to conceal from the country the real state of their
finances, there would have been some ground for the present
motion.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gen-
meman opposite had admitted that the Prime Minister of
the country, aad his Noble Friend the Secretary for the
Colonies, who led the Government in that House, had
themselves volunteered to state that theyconsidered the condition
s.f the country deserving of the serious consideration of Parlia-
ment. Under these circumstances he did not really see what
the Right Hon. Gentleman rested his case upon. There was
only one part of the return to which his Right Hon. Friend
objected, and he could not therefore complain of a want of in-
formation. He should certainly oppose that part of the motion,
because he thought it unfair, unnecessary, and wholly unprece-
dented.—( Cheers. )
Sir G. CLERK contended that no answer had been given
to the statements of his two Right Hon. Friends on that side
of the House. The Right Hon. Gentleman who had last ad-
dressed the House had stated that Honourable Members
had come down prepared to vote for the motion
but he would appeal to those who had had the benefit of hear •
ing the Right Hon. Gentleman's speech whether they could re-
collect one single reason which he had urged why they should
be refused the production of these papers. If there had been
no precedents at all for the present motion, surely the circum-
stances of the country, in regard to its finances, were so UR-
preeedented as to justify a departure from the ordinary course
of proceeding. On the 25th of February, 1824, three weeks
after the meeting of Parliament, Lord Ripon being then Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer stated, that in conformity with the
course he had adopted last year, he would take the earliest op-
portunity of opening to the House his views of the present si-
tuation and future prospects of the finances of the country..
dere'
If at the time of Lord Ripon it was not found difficult to so,- emit
to the House an estimate of the probable income of country
hrsl
,nervation
de
during the year, what reason had the peesent
not withholding it. He had not stated any
,t,teime,. and
.the present,
behuatngheed. saiSdurethlyew:neh:enmnemitahei of n nnancial year was
,:cheani
nc etlhlioer
efior-r
cumstances of the country between tlo.:
was done, it was not contemplated
that it would be mde
inclecierculuPmstances of the country, till a
pretext for not giving to the House a
statement of the
the year ? The Chancellor of the Exchequer
a speech of Lord Melbourne's, when, in answer to an
(pericodd
made, he stated, but not voluntarily, that we were
in a state of great financial difficulty and embarrassment. The
Noble Lord also, at the conclusion of a long debate, adverted
to the difficulties in which the finances were placed, and the
necessity the Government felt themselves in of calling on the
House for additional means of carrying on the Government.
But how did he make that speech at the close of that debate?
When he felt secure of 308 gentlemen who were sitting behind
him. But what was the nature of their vote of confidence in
the Government, when they were not disposod to enable them
to meet the expenses of the country, and he was compelled to
throw himself on the pity of those opposed to him, and to tell
them surely they would not refuse the means of meeting the
exigencies of the country ? The Noble Lord, after heaping all
manner of obloquy on the Conservative party, was compelled
to apply to them in the manner of the applicant of Shy-
lock—<, Lend me your monies." The Noble Lord knew
well the Members on that side of the House would throw no
difficulty in the way of meeting the increased exigencies of the
country, and were much more consistent in objecting to the con-
duct of the Government, from whose misgovernment that increased
expense had arisen, yet who were prepared to vote whatever
money was required for the service of the country, Bum those who
one day vote their confidence in the Government, and the next day
proved that they had none by withholding their vote for that supply.
Ho agreed with the Hon. Member for Kilkenny that the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, finding himself unable to supply the House with
arguments for resisting the production of the estimate, had endea.
voured to divert their attention from the subject betbre them by
instituting a comparison between the financial operations of the
present Government and that of his Right Hon. Friend, after
which it was impossible his Right Hon. Friend could avoid giving
some answer, and that answer, whatever might be the opinion of
the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, he thought perfectly satisfactory.
When the Hon. Gentleman compared the expenditure of the present
Government with that of the Duke of Wellington's in 1828, 1829.
and 1830, lie did not give a fair statement of those two Govern.
ments, for, during those years, there had been a great diminution
of the expenses of the country ; whereas, during the administra-
tion of Lord Melbourne, it had greatly increased. The House
would remember a speech delivered in 1834 by his Right Hon.
Friend the Member for Pembroke, who stated that the means of
seduction were limited to the votes annually passed for the service
of the year, which did not amount to 16,000,0001., and, therefore,
a reduction of 2,000,0001. was made from that large sum. Now,
what was the conduct of the present Government, which succeeded
to the estimates framed during the short administration of his
Right Hon. Friend ? The expenditure for the service of the year,
sth January, 1836, was only 13,800,0001. ; the next year,
14,392,0001.; in 1838,15,000,0001. ; the next year, 16,000,000/. ;
and this year it appeared, from papers laid upon the table of the
House, that it would amount to no less than 17,493,5451., teing
an increase upon those heads of the service, to which alone the
estimate referred, of upwards of 3,490,000/. He could not ad-
mit that that increase was owing to anything done by that side
of the House, though they did complain that the bad policy of the
Government had rendered .o great an increase necessary ; and who,
knowing the necessity which existed, were afraid that their friends
would object to vote the necessary supplies, and were therefore
afraid to come forward and demand it. They had been told that
the naval service was in a most inefficient state, and what was the
result ?
During the last year an increase was made in the ex-
penditure of the Navy, which, though not more than the service
required, would be this year increased by half a million more.
—(Hear, hear.) Whets the Hon. Member for Kilkenny charged
hem with inconsistency for not joining in voting the
estimates, he charged him with inconsistency for not joining
hem in voting their want of confidence in the Govern.
cv
ophauaesnrlastedatsdiminution
mwt yaiietpnhatr
et
ati oohr fnee
appeared
the
hee2aa,Drt2
joluun2ks
,ettohocieefoxn:W.
trweeildnhl i.cinlrgeeTta
stofkee'iosenfaxgtdphmteohnsi
eei
ment, since they had been told of the profligacy and great
expenditure of former Governments as compared with the present ;
but he should eall the attention of the House to the state of the
was 47,142,0001., and that of the last year was
admi-
nistration, stunotunur
expen-
diture years
oaf
finance
rnns,lasnati3cshleeacr:oecm'
49,557,0001., being an increase of expenditure of 2,214,0001.,
instead, as in 1830, of a surplus of 3,000,0001., while the present
income of the country was insufficient to meet its expendi.
tore by a million and a half. After the able statements
made by his Hon. Friends as to the impolicy of the Government
allowing such a state of the finances, he should not trouble the
House any further on that subject ; but he thought it afforded the
strongest reason why there should be laid before the House, at the
earliest period, a statement of the probable effect of such measures
as that which had recently been adopted by the Chancellor of the
Exchequer on the 10th of January, and of which he had given no
reason :for making that premature change. The only argument
used oy the President of the Board of Trade against the produc-
tion of the estimates was, that it would be attended with public
inconvenience. The only reason stated by the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer was, that, at this period of the
year, he had no means of forming an accurate estimate;
but there had heen no attempt to show that its production would
be attended with the slightest inconvenience. No doubt its produc-
tion would not be gratifying to the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
though he believed that the finances were better at present than
during the last three years, the estimate of last year showing an
income of upwards of 46,000,000/. There was, therefore, no rea-
son for gloomy views of the resources of the country, nor did he
think that any evil would result in the commercial or money mar-
ket if a fair and full statement were given. The Wight Hon. Gen-
tleman was not called upon to state the nature of the taxes it
would be necessary to impose, and he thought that had
better be postponed till he knew the result of the great Popt-oflice