The Sun.
London, England, 1841-03-20 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, MARCH 20, 1841

because it was well known that it was the opinion cf a
large majority in that House that the principle of the pre-
sent Poor-laws should form the basis of any amended
Bill. lie was indeed astonished at the conduct of his
Hoe. Friends, for, if their motion were carried, they would
be shut At from making any change whatever, which
certainly was not their intention. Many Hon. Members
had asserted that the payment of wages out of the poor-
rac was confined to only a very few counties. He could as-
sure the. Houso that the practice was common in
nearly eve!), county, whe:e it bore the name t f bread
money, town roll, or any other. Hon. Members must re-
collect the s'a'e of the agricalturel population at the time
the Bill was passed. They appesred to be on the eve of
an outbreak. The disease was fearful, and it required
a somewhat caustic remedy ; yet the then House of Com-
mons adopted as a principle the practice of the best
counties in the country—those counties in which the
workhouse test was applied. Let them look at the state
cf the poor now and what it was before 1834. Then the
able-bodied pauper obtained money relief, and spent his
days in idleness, and his nights in crime—the young were
without education, the old were huddled up with the rest.
What was now their condition ? How much improved ?
The House now stood in a much more favourable
position than in 1834. The principle cf the law was now
well understood. Hon. Members were hexer able to
come to a mature deliberation upon what amendments
were necessary. The question was whether the test
of dcs'itetion was necessary or not, and if so, to whom
were tl.ey to leave its application ? Any ore who recol-
lected the proceediags et' MagiYtr.t !s under the old sys-
tem must prefer Boards of Guardians, who, In tug el -cted,
were geecrally the empl ens, and c )nsequently frequently
in coi.toct with the poor. He preferred Boa-ds of Guardians,
but then he thought there was also a nec:s,ity for a central
con trolling power to regulate, and if nc cessary, oppose
local feelings. He would ins'anee the eases of Notting-
ham and Leicester, which, being visited with a deranee-
mcnt of trade, and, consequently, severe sutT.ring and die.
tress amongst the trade3j copl,, the Commissioners at once
interfered, and the pauper was relieved in the workhouse,
while the distressed workman received relief in necessaries

and money. Still, although arbitrary power might be re-
cesssry, he did not think it was constitutionat—( Hear,
hear)--t. nd therefore he wool I limit its duration, and he
thought five years the probable term.—(Heir.) lie had
been quite astonished to hear the speech of the
lion. 114,mber for Finsbury—it was a most extraordinary
one—one he thought mere fitted to the arena of the hunt-
irgs than the floor of that Home.—(llear, hear.) He
first made an appeal to the country gentlemen, then a
fierce appeal to the pas,i9ns of the people, and lastly, he
uttered threats of revolution if the House passed the Bill.
Now that was not a fair way of discussing such an impor-
tant question.--(Hear, hear.) flowerer, he thought the
gentlemen who were upon the Poor-law Committee had
reason to complain of the conduct of the Noble Lord. His
Bill appearel to be framed for the purpose of supporting
the power of the Commissioners—( Hear, hear)—but he
trust° i he would yet yield to the wishes of that Commit-
tee, and support some of the clauses, notice of which had
been given, which would carry those wishes into effect.
He would give his cordial support to the motion for going
into Committee on the Bill.
Mr. BROTHERTON said his constituents were
unanimous in their opposition to the Bill. One reason
was that they conceived the introductien of it had
raised the rates in Salford—another was that it
was not suited to a manufacturing population. In
his opinion they wore beginning at the wrong end. He
could not bonsent to throw the poor upon their own resources
While the landlords had a law for their own protection.
Let them repeal the Corn-laws, and then ho would give
his consent to ao so. lie was not disposed to take every
opportunity of bringing this law into disrepute. He knew
what bad been the situation of the poor under the old law,
and that, in some respects, there had been many
amendments. But there was a great jealousy
amongst the people respecting the power of the
Commissioner?. It would tend greatly to recon-
cile the people to the law if the guardians were
left to govern their owe constituents, subject to the advice
of the Commis:loners, in many cases, in which that advice,
from the general knowledge of the Commissioners, would
be pract'eally useful. He did not know how far the
control of the Commissioners might be necessary in the
agricultural districts, but he knew that it was most bene-
ficial in the manufacturing districts. If the latter were to
be exempted from its operations he would not interfere.
If they were not he would not oppose the motion.
Sir A. DALRYMPLE having voted against this Bill
on the second reading, he would not now vot3 against its
going into Committee. He would reserve to himself the
power of opposing its most obnoxious provisions in its
future stages.
Mr. SLANE Y supported the motion, and contended
that the measure was necessary for the good of the poor
themselves. Under the old system the idlest man was the
best off, and the provident and industrious man was kept in
the condition of a parish workman, let out on hire to the
highest bidder, and paid out of the poor-rates, as a charity,
the wages to which he was honestly entitled, as the fair
reward of his honest labour. _

Sir CHARLES DOUGLAS, amidst loud cries of
" Dividr, dis ide," said that ho had voted against the second
reading, and would oppose the present motion.—( Divide.)
Seeing that the House was not disposed to listen to him
he would bow to its wishes.—(Hean hear.)
Mr. WAKLEY said that the Bill had taken no notice
of the recommendations of the Committee. There was
nothing in the Bill the people could approve of. There
was nothing in it which the House could entertain except
for the purpose of reprobation. The Noble Lord had some
annoyance from the demagogues of the metropolis. and
he hoped the Noble Lord would suffer still more if he
persisted in this Bill.—( Hear, hear.) If the Noble Lord
meant by mischievous demagogues, the demagogues who
were Members of that House, he (Mr. Wakley) would
not deny that the term "mischievous " was well applied,
for they had supported the Noble Lord ever since they
had seats in it.—(Cheers and laughter). In this Bill it
Was provided that there should be no distinction between
the deeming and the undeserving. Nothing more was
required than that the person claiming relief should be
destitute, and character was not to be taken into account.
Under the law of Elizabeth, a distir.c ion was male, until
the Magistrates interfered.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble
Lord himself had appeared in the character of a dema-
gogue, and said that if the working men had not enough
of wages, they should throw themselves into the
workhouse ; 500 of them had taken the advice, and
were now lodged in cells in which they had leisure to
agitate upon their folly in listening to the advice of the
Noble Demagogee.—(Crie3 of " No, no," and " Yes,
yes.") He (Mr. Wakley) remembered some excellent,
innocent, harmless, agricultural labourers, who having re-
ceived notice that their wages were to be reduced from
12e. to 7s. a-week, farmed themselves into a union to re-
sist the reduction, and not knowing that there was a law
in exi tence—a law which was unknown to the Attorney-
General himself, which was passed in consequence of the
mutiny of the Nore—they bound themse'ves by oath ; they
were tried at Dorchester and sentenced to transportation
for seven years. That happened in 1834. What had
happened on that occasion—why one poor woman bad had
her husband, her son, and her brother transported. Was
that the way in which able-bodied labourers were to be
treat •d if they took mimes to make themselves in-
dependent ?—( Chet ) These things would produce
anything but good to the country.—(Cheers) He be-
lie% e I the Noble Lord to be siocerc in what he had stated,
but did the Noble Lord imagine that men in a state of
starvation could reason and reflect on the doctrines of free
labour? Could a man see his children in a state of desti-
tution around him, and calmly reason with his family on
those doctrines ? Could it be supposed that he could
calmly glve up his cottage and propose to his wife and
family so go into the workhouse, and what would be his
treatment there ? He would be separated from his family,
attired in a ga )1 dress, employed in the most degradii.g
eccupetionF, and stigmatized by those who saw him as a
person living on charity. Did the Noble Lord think that
the English 1 ibourer would submit to such treatment
until he had been reduced to the last extremity ? The Hon.
Member far Somersetshire had said that the guardians
were ger.etally the persons who employed the labourers.
What am to prevent the guardians agreeing amongst
themselves that they would not give more than seven shil-
lings a week ; and if the labourers refused that they
would have nothing. But to fall back upon what the
Noble Lord called the test, but which was, in fact, the
torture.—(Loud cheers.) That was the proper w
That torture or the wages would be the alternative offered
by the guardians, and a perfect torture it teas to every able-
bodied man who desired to do his duty.—(Ch, ors.)
however, the House should reject the motion of the Hon.
Member for Preston, he would go into Committee on the
iii 1, and would concur as sincerely as any one in endea-
vouring to make it a good law ; and he implored all who
were hostile to the measure to take that course ; and if the
Nob'e Lord would lend a willing car to those who had
scan the law in actual operation, he would consent to take
power from the Commissioners, and to give more power to
'lts law and to the guardians. He did not doubt but that
they might event lady produce a law which would give
something 1 ke satisfaction.
Mr. FITZROY, although he believed the Bill to be
unju,t, unnatural, and cruel, yet could not vote f,r the
mction of the Hon. Member for Preston, because he
hoped that in Committee they night be able to modify
some of the most stringent clauses, more particul trly that
they might reduce the duration of the Commission from five
cars to two, and introduce several valuable amendments.
Poivrsittrl:aeiev:easona, although he had voted against the se-
cond readinrgamwclefLrtEehetshßenill, he could not support the motion
of the Han. Member for Preston.
explained.
ordered
divided—to withdraw, and the House

Par Mr.m7j.orP:
tayrkaegra'isn
amotionthe
whTsichihre AeiFie:oria:ectitt:ht . .
( : u LL moved
period during motion...wl. 247
-51196
On clause 1 bring went
into Committee.
• KNAl•ll'gCllel3d'
clauses. have been eons' ,stiould be postponed till the other
that this clause,
shall exercise their p,,,,,,vrs , ~1,, 1 the Commission
deaulecdp.owers of the Commissioners
summonedpur to attend the Poor-law
seioniaernsgusf;gire the purpose
ip,uoseof beilntg
vlea:arnriiege:tl
his motion gene ally on the 1110 11 in. Member grounded
not ln irg sufficiently
Magistrate had bcealn the county of Devon a
meeting. Many crave charges
had at a public
as
notlrs:llisAtbe Poor-law Commissioners.l6B pausedbeen adduced
ana
that the House should know %hat ve
of the COII7II,ISSIOIICrF, before they exter,rdeedthe pewcra
them to a
rriud of five years. The Noble Lord bad
'P
great ingenuity on this point. Ile first proposedt:inlealresi,
but as soon as it was suggested on that side of the
that five yca-s would be better. he altered his proposal-to House
five years. His Right Hon. Friend did not mention that
specific time as the best that could be adopted, but the
Noble Lord, with his usual tact, immeiiately complied.__
( Hear, hear.) On the vt hole, he thought it Would bo
much better to consider the whole of the clauses before
they declare I the period.
Colonel SIBTHORP expressed his entire disapproba-
tion of the Bill, He would be glad to know what would
be the number of Assistant- Cocutniisiallen's
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said hellad certainly witlect

to' extend the powers of the Commissionets to the period
of ten years. He had altered his proposal, because he
doubted whether the House would consent to it. Ile
yielded to what he thought would he the sense of the
House on that subject.--(Hear, hear.) With regard to
the postponement of the first clause, he could not
see how it could be postponed if they were to
proceed with the other clauses of the Bill. By those
clauses certain powers were given which would be wholly
futile, should the period be extended only to December
next. He could not see, therefore, how it was possible
for the House to accede to the proposal of the Hon.
Member.
Sir IL PEEL said 1:e had sugge-ted five years, because
he thought it a reasonable time. Having mentioned that
period, the House would naturally expect th it be would
adhere to it. He thought five years better than a shot tar
period. He did not think that there wou.'.d be any advan-
tage derived from frequent annual discussions on
this subject. In case of abuse on the part of
the Commissioners, it would be perfectly competent
to the House to inquire into the allegation. He very
much doubted, supposing the object were to get rid of thr
Commissioners, whether there was not a greater chance of
doing so by taking a period of five years than by taking
two years, and constantly discussing the question. If he
should be convinced at the expiration of five years that
there was no advantage in having a Central Board, he
should vote for its dissolution, but if after the lapse of that
period it should be found that the guardians were acting
on the plinciple mentioned by the Hon. Member
tslaiseingru,arldeitanuss
gbicineg7s.thea
efwon'erepliFto,iynaesnrbsculr)ol'eft tuw‘s.hc"emPsliotr)3l:,enaonotdf the test but the torture, in
order to induce the poor to except lower wages," he
should doubt whether it was prudent to rermit the guar-
dians to act without any kind of control. But while he
consented to the duration of this Commission for five years,
he must say that be wished the Commissioners in the ex-
pressions which they used would exercise a little more
casation.—( Hesr. hear.) He thought that with the best
intentions the e was occasionally a harshness which
might be avoided consistently with the maiatain-
:lnce of the law, and the avoidance of which
would rather fortify the power of the Commissioners. He
would take as an illustration one single sentence from an
official circular issued by the Poor-law Commissioners.
It was from a circular of public documents and informa-
tions signed by the Poor-law Commissioners chiefly for the
use of members and of permanent officers of boards of
guardians. This statement was that one principal object
of compulsory relief was the prevention of alms-giving.
Now he should abominate the Poor-law if he thovgut that
it would lead them from tie duty of alms-giving;
that because the Poor-law was in existence, and a better
system of administration prevailed, the wants of their
pocrer neighbours were to be neglected.—( Hear, hear.)
No such thing. In point cf fact the relief of the poor
after all mutt mainly depend on the affluent, and there-
fore it was unwise in the Commissioners to issue a public
nctice that the principal object of the compulsory relief
of destitution was the prevention of aline-giving.. Its ob-
ject might, indeed, be the prevention of mendicancy.—
( Hear, hear.) But to extend the principle further was
to contravene the Divine law, which said—" Give alms
to the poor ; turn not your face from the poor man."
He only mentioned this as an illustration of the great ad-
vantage and wisdom of weighing expressions, and not creat-
ing unnecessarily a feeling against the Poor-law. On the
whole he did think that there had been in the public do-
cuments, which bad been put forth, an incautious nee of
expressions which were calculated to create prejudice,
and that the general tone and character of such documents
might be improved consistently with the principle of the
law.—( Hear, hear.) When he mentioned five years, he
thought the Noble Lord had a right to infer that he would
give his support to a motion for extending their
powers to that period. It would be as convenient to
give the Commissioners power to act for five years, and to
modify the clauses on account of the duration of their
powers, as it would be to consider first their powers and
then their duration.

Colonel SIBTEIORP did not see any reason why the
Noble Lord should not ansiNer the question he had put
to him.

Lord J. RUSSELL said it was his intention to reduce
the number of Assistant- Commissioners to twelve.

Colonel SIBTHORP gave notice that he should re-
duce them to five.--( Great laughter.)
After a few words from Mr. HODGES, the clause was
postponed.

Mr. B. WOOD had given notice of an amendment
that not more than five Assistant Poor-law Commissioners
should continue in office after the 31st Decembe7 next,
and that no Assistant-Commissioners should continuo in
office after the 31st Dee., 1843. It appeared that the
expenses of the Poor•law Commissioners, had been,
in 1840, not less than 25,7001 , and the pre-
vious year they had been something more. Now,
their duty was to attend to the formation of miens,
and that object was almost accomplished, there being
12,000 parishes formed into unions, and only 770 to be
formed. The population in these 770 parishes was two
millions, and of these one million belonged to the metro-
polis and other districts, which it was not intended to form
into unions. It appeared to him, therefore, that a less
number than twelve would be able to accomplish all that
remained to be done. The Hon. Member concluded by
moving the amendment.
Lord J. ii.USSELL thought that the Assistant-Com-
missioners were exceedingly useful, in carrying out the
general operation of the law. The Noble Lord made
some further observation!, but he spoke in so low a tone
of voice, as to be very indistinctly heard in the Gallery.
We understood him to say that he would oppose the
amendment.

Mr. DARBY conceived that the subject of complaint
was, that the Assistant-Commi3aioners did not viiit some
of the Poor•law unions more than once in a year. He
thought that the AsEi.tant-Commissioners wero bound to
a more strict performance of their duty.

Mr. GEORGE W. WOOD said that in the unions with
which he was acquainted, the Assistant-Commissioners
were not able to visit more than once in four or five
months. But then they were kept away by pressure of
business elsewhere. He thouglst that it was sought to
carry the reduction too f:r.
Lord G. SOMERSET had that evening pre:cntcd a
petition from a Board of Guardians, which stated that
they had not seen an Assistant-Commissioner for a long
time, and they got on very well. By the original Bill
the Secretary of S. ate had power to appoint any number
of Assistant-Commissioners. That ought not now ti be;
would the Noble Lord content to name the maximum
number to be employed under the Bill. He would prefer
that security to voting for the amendment, of the Hon.
Member,
Mr. R. PALMER did not see how work could be cut
out for so many Assistant- Commissioners. He objected to
the Board of Commissioners being a permanent body ; he
trusted that the Assistant-Commissioners would not also
become a permanent body.—(Neer, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL sail the number of Assistant-
Comm i3sioners had been consider ably reduced already.
He would have no hesitation in fixing the number to be
employed in England. But the system was now in Ire-
land, and he could not name the number which might be
wanted in that country.
Mr. HUME said, as the Government would Lave to
come every year to the House for a vote to pay the Assis-
tsul-Comndisioners, he thought it better to leave the
matter in the hands of the Government. If they did not
reduce the number quick enough, the House would have
it in its power to do it at any time.
Mr. SYDNEY HERBERT did not think it prudent
to fix the number of Assistant• Commissioners, nor did he
think it would be good policy to 'educe them too sud-
denly. He thought there ought to be a central controlling
poorer, but he thought the period cf live years v%ai too
Lang ; it was an unconstitutional body—( Heir)-- and
ought to be frequently brought under the notice of the
public, and be made often subject to the power of public
opinion. He would not then vote for any amendment, but
would reserve himself until the bringing up of the Repot t,
when some motion to reduce the duration of the Commis-
sion would be made.

Mr. B. WOOD and Sir H. VERNET rose together, and
both persisted in addressing the Chairman, amidst laugh-
ter and cries for each.

Mr. H. HINDI!: rose to order. He had distinctly
bevrd the Chairman call upon the Hon. Member for
Southwark.

Air. BERNAL said he l:ad certainly done so, but lie
understood that Hon. Member to hare waived his right.
Both Hoy. Membi u persisted in addressing the House,
amidst loud cries of " Order and Chair." At lait Sir H.
Verney gave way, and
Mr. B. WOOD said, after what he had lo3rd he would
not divide the Committee. He had thought that five
Absistant.Commi3sioners would now be enough, became
few unions remained to be formed.

octihoaninnwaaisl
w tChcaloanwenl
118eilZullifiRmmPesdailadultylim4tovief titthatethme
report progress and ask leave to sit again.
After some discussion tho amendment was put, when
Colonel SIBTHORP said be would certainly divido
the House upon it.—(Cries of " No, no.")
Mr. BERNAL—Does the Hon. Member propose any
ame.nder cut ?
Color.el SIBTHORP—No ; I object to any Assistant-
Commissioners at all.—(A laugh.)
Mr. BERNAL—WiII you divide the House?
Colonel SIBTHORP—Most ccrtinly.—(No, no, and
a laugh, )
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the Corn..
mittce divided. The Membe:li
wetS—
For the Amendment 46
Against it l9l
Majority in favour of the clause —l4s
On our re-admission we found
Mr. WO LITE RL Y ATT W OD on his legs, moving
that the Chairman du report progress and ask leave to sit
again.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL could not meede to the pro-
position of the lion. Gentleman. 110 would be most
happy to listen to any reasons that might to urged against
the clause, but he certainly shauld oppose any motion for
adjournment.
Mr. EA STHOPE had given notice of an amendment
on the clam c lie should certainly press to a division.
Mr. WOLVERLEY ATTWOOD would decidedly
pr as his motion to a division.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but no divi.
sion took place.
On our re-admission to the gallery,
The CII hIRMAN reported prog,resF, and obtained
leave to sit again (as we understood) on Monday next.
The other Orders of the Day were disposed of, and the
House Adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock.

,
CONSUMPTION OF COFFEE.— Ile culture of
coffee, which about fifty years rgo was nearly unknown
throughout the whole continent of South America, now
produces, in Brazil alone, the enormous quantity of
135,000,00011 m., or something more than one. half of :chat
annually finds its way from all quarters into the European
markets; our own West Indian c)lonies contributing but
atrivelfth Fut to the three hundred millions (f pounds at
which the yearly consumption of
this commodity has lecn
rated.

FROM LAST NIGHT'S GAZE T

WHITEHALL, MARCH 15.
The Lord Chancellor has appointed Edmund Garbett, 0:
Wellington, in the county of Salop, Gent., to be a Master Ex.
traordinary in the High Court of Chancery.

WAR-OFFICE, Maucu 19.
27th Regiment of Foot —Ensign H. Stapylton, to be Lieu-
tenant, by purchase, vice Butler, promotedin the Cape Mounted
Riflemen ; Oliver Langley, Gent., to be Ensign, by purchase,
vice Stapylton, March 19.
29th Foot—Lieut. J. 0. Lucas to be Captain, by purchase,
vice Alves, who retires ; Ensign H. P. L'Estrange to be
Lieutenant by purchase, vice Lucas ; G. P. Stanhope, Gent.,
to be Ensign, by purchase, vice L'Estrange, March 19.
53d Fuot—W. B. Bastard, Gent., to be Ensign, by pur-
chase, vice Cooke, who retires, March 19.
60th Foot—Second Lieut. the Hon. J. E. H. Thurlow to
be First Lieutenant, by purchase, vice Jebb, who retires; G.
Rhodes, Gent., to be Second Lieutenant, by purchase, vice
Thurlow, March 19.
65th Foot—Ensign J. W. Marshall to be Lieutenant, by
nurchase, vice Haldane, who retires; C. A. Cuthbert, Gent.,
to be Ensign, by purchase, vice Marshall, March 19.
66th Foot—Capt. A. Mainwaring, from the 68th Foot, to
be Captain, vice T. W. Nesham, who retires upon half-pay
Unattached, receiving the difference, March 19.
68th Foot—Capt. A. E. Kennedy, from half-pay Unat-
tached, to be Captain, paying the difference, vice Mainwat ing,
appointed to the 66th Foot, March 19.
7t st Foot—Lieut.-General Sir T. Reynell, Bart., K. C. 8.,
from the 87th Foot, to be Colonel, vice Sir S. F. Whiffing-
ham, deceased, March 15.
87th Foot—Major-General Sir H. Gough, K.C.8., from
the 99th Foot, to be Colonel, vice Sir T. Reynell, appointed
to the 71st Foot, March 15.
89th Foot—R. Dudgeon, Gent., to be Ensign, without
purchase, vice Oakley, deceased, March 19.
99th Foot—Lieutenant-General Sir H. Douglas, Bart.,
K.C.B. and G.C.M. G., to be Colonel, vice Sir H. Gough,
appointed to the 87th Foot, March 15.
Cape Mounted Riflemen—Lieutenant H. Butler, from the
27th Foot, to be Captain, by purchase, vice Peshall, March 10.
MEMOKA ND U 711. —The names of the Gentleman appointed
to an Ensigncy in the 36th Foot, on the sth March 1841, are
Owen Hill Harries, and not Harris, as before stated.

OFFICE OF ORDNANCE, Mancii 18.
Eisaavrum in the Gazette of the 16th instant.
Royal Regiment of Artillery—For Lieut. John Fitzherbert
Grant, read Edward Fitzherbert Grant.

The following places have been duly registered for solemniz.
ing marriages therein, pursuant to the Act of 6th and 7th Wil
Liam I V., chap. 85 :
The Independent Chapel, Repton, Derbyshire.
Nazareth, Llanfihangel y Traethau, Merionethshire.