The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-23 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 23, 1847

150,259 ; in November the number was 285,817 ; in
December the number was 404,637 ; and in January it
was 571,000. The expenditure up to the sth of Janus, y
21a0
00;
last,
;r a staff for the Board of Work', has
anti the amount expended for other officers
to the :mile date has been 27,500/. There has been ex-
pended up to this time, for the purposes of draining
about 218,0901., and on depots the amount has been
295,0001.: nearly all the latter sum will be repaid
to the Government v. hen the sales of the depots
take place. For the " purposes of the Labour-rate
Act there has been advanced from the Exchequer
of this country to Ireland the sum of 2,400,0001., and of
thin there has been disbursed under the direction of the
Board of Works nearly two millions. This expenditure
of 2,400,0004 had taken place up to the 20th of Feb. last.
The amount raised by donations and expended
to Ireland from August till now has been 80,000/.
Now from this statement I do nut think that
there will be required a sum less than a
million a month to meet the exigencies of Ireland.
The amount which was expended in January was
800,0001, and this did not include all the outlay. No
doubt the Board of Works will in future be relieved of a
great deal of its pressure, but, on the other hand, it should
be recollected that during; the summer months there
are the greatest number of destitute persons in Ireland.
-I) ring the months of June, July and August, there are
Infinitely less people employed than at an earlier period
of the year. It was, I believe, in reference to these
three months that the statement the Right llon. Gentle-
man alluded to was made—that somewhere about two
millions of people in Ireland were in a state of total des-
titution for three months of the year. Again, we expect
no inconsiderable saving by the different modes of ad-
ministering relief, through the medium of soup kitchens
and relief committees, for they are considerably
cheaper than the relief given by the public works,
On the other hand, the increase in the destitution of
t..hat country and the increased demand for a supply of
food, will, I believe, render a greater amount of ex-
penditure necessary. Again, Sir, there is no doubt that
a considerable number of persons will be taken off the
public works by the employment afforded by the land-
lords of Ireland, under the Bill, which I hope will be
raised before long, for the improvement of their estates.
1. believed that the Bill will work well in Ireland,
for all accounts of it have induced in my mind very
btheuine expectations. Again, Sir, the advances made
t:etrhieTreasury will have to be made, as far as I can
55' I.e from the data we have to go upon, down to the ga-
ng in of the next harvest. It is impossible to sup•
Pose that all exertions on the part of thsse national mea-
sures can cease at once in harvest time, and it is quite
clear that advances for the purposes of carrying on many
worksfor must be continued ; so that it is very likely that
easr.rne Short period after the harvest—looking at the
be e In the
" .
most favourable light—these advances must
sibletinued
'raking, therefore, the briefest view it is pos-
to
eight— estimate, I cannot estimate the expenditure under
millions, Up to the present time, as I have
already stated, two millions had been advanced, and
therefore the estimate of the total sum which will be
required to be expended or advanced, granted or lent,
for the relief of distress in Ireland, during the period of
about a y
n ear, will not be less than eight millions of
"eY--(Sensation.) Two millions have been already
:e lam eed, eight are to be advanced, making altogether,
from the conclusion of August last to the conclusion of
operations, which I anticipate at the end
Sir
the harvest, ten millions of money.—(Hear.)
I do believe that even if the 16,000,000/. which the
Noble Lord opposite wished the Government to advance
to the railways had been ordered by the House,
that not even one shilling of these 16,000,000/.
vloeld be saved to the country. With the heavy
demands which are now made on the resources
of the country, I was glad, although myself unable to
take part in this discussion—l say I was glad, and gra-
tified to see the authority by which the House
affirmed so wise and prudent a resolution.—(Hear
hear,) The announcement which I have now to make
Must be evident to the Committee—it must be evident
that I must go into the market to borrow, because no
amount of taxation will be able to produce within the
time required the money which is necessary for the
relief of Ireland. It is, therefore, a matter not of chance,
but of necessity, that I must go into the market to
borrow, and the first question which it is necessary
for me to ask is, shall I borrow the whole of the
8,000,000/., or endeavour only to borrow a part. If I
adopt the latter course, I must first consider whether I
shall not reduce the balances of the Exchequer. Now,
Sir, this is a course which' I am most unwilling
to adopt. Sir, I think that no person who looks to
the state of what is called the money market of this
country, who considers that the exchanges had been
adverse to us (although I am happy to say that they
have lately been less adverse than they were, still they
are just at the turn), will say, after a consideration of
these circumstances, that it would not be
exceedingly injudicious in me if I put a farther
pressure on the monetary system of this country.
It must also be remembered that by a Bill of
last session great advances were made for the
purposes of drainage and other improvements.
But, Sir, there is a still further and more weighty con-
sideration. It is uncertain what hangs over us, and what
will be the produce of the ensuing harvest no man can
tell. No man can overrate the importance of a good
harvest. Hitherto we have been living mainly upon por-
tions of the harvest of 1845—1 mean on the harvest of other
countries of 1845, and to some extent upon the harvest
of 1846. In the course of the last year there was in-
troduced, for home consumption in this country, of
grain and flour of all kinds, no less a quantity than
5,318,000 quarters. It was hoped that there would
have been a. considerable import of Indian corn,
the produce of the harvest of 1846, but those hopes
were not realised. lam confident, however, that in the
course of this summer we shall have an abundandant
supply of Indian corn; but still it is impossible
to say what will be the produce of the next har-
vest. It may please God to give us a good har-
vest throughout the world, but unless that dispensation
is vouchsafed to us it will be impossible to calcu-
late for the future. Sir, the means by which we met
the pressure of last autumn was the large balance in the
Exchequer, and I hope this will convince every Member
of the Committee of the necessity for keeping some con-
siderable balance in the Exchequer. Sir, this being so,
I believe the wiser and more prudent course is at once
to borrow the extreme sum. Honourable Gentlemen
must remember, that in borrowing this, I do not take
a permanent responsible position, because a considerable
portion of the sum will be repaid by Irish landlords.
Of the expenditure on the public works in Ireland, hall
of it has been granted as a charge upon the property of
Ireland, and payable in a period of ten years. The
amount of these repayments, as they come in, will, of
Course, extinguish a considerable portion of the
debt proposed to be contracted. But, even
though the half of the sums granted to
Ireland should be repaid, there would still
remain a balance of 4,000,0001. or 5,000,0001., which
will not be so much when it is considered for what
Purpose the grant has been made, viz , for the relief of
our suffering fellow creatures. The next ques-
tion of course is, whether, in the borrowing of
so large a sum, I should not have accompanied
that loan with increased taxation, not only for
the purpose of paying the interest of the loan
proposed to be raised, but also for discharging a portion
of the debt before a long period. I was exceedingly un-
willing, even to the amount which I have named, to in-
crease the amount of the permanent debt without making
Some immediate provision for its extinction before
long ; I was unwilling to add even this amount
to the permanent debt; but, on the other hand, there
were many reasons which induced me to pause before I
determined on the adoption of that course. In the first
Place, among many other reasons, the present year i 9
one in which it would be most unfortunate to attempt
any alteration in the taxation of the country. Every
body knows that a season of great taxation invariably
induces stagnation of trade. In proof of that assertion,
compare the first quarter of the year 1816 and the first
quarter of the present year. In the last year the repeal
of the corn-laws and other duties was hanging over the
commerce of the country, thereby causing great
Uncertainty in commercial matters. In the present year
all agitation has been suspended, commerce has been
thrown open, and, as I have already stated, a remark-
able increase in the Customs and Excise has been
made in consequence in the corresponding quarter
of the last and present years. Further than that,
I think no inconsiderable weight is to be at-
tached to the consideration mentioned before, namely,
with reference to the amount which the Government
may ultimately have to obtain. If, as I hope, the har-
vest of the next year turns out a plentiful one—if, as
I hope, from one source or another, employment, or the
means of sub,istence, be provided for the suffering people
of Ireland, then in such case the present demand now made
for the loan may not be required. If, however, upon the
contrary, the produce of the harvest should be deficient ;
if there should be again a failure of the potato crop, and
of the grain imported from elsewhere, or grown in this
country, should be a high price and dear, then it will be
necessary for the country to come forward and assist
the starving population, and allowing a further
demand to be made upon the public resources of the
country. I hope before Parliament meets again
that I shall be able to inform them of
the prosperous state of the country, in connexion
with the harvests. I think, therefore, that it is better to
postpone dealing with the question of increased
taxation until we can deal with it with the
full knowledge of the existing circumstances.
lion. Gentlemen must be aware that in the next session
of Parliament it will be necessary to deal with the
question of the renewalof the income-tax. If taxation
was to be increased this year, that is one of the
sources of revenue to which one would naturally look
as a fit tax to impose, but I think it would be extremely
unwise to deal with it this year—to prejudge Parliament
—.anew Parliament, perhaps. It is for these reasons, Sir,
that it would be well if I could this year provide for the
loans out of the ordinary revenue; but I propose adopt-
ing a more prudent course, and not increasing the taxa-
-1)1.e de
on in the present year, but leaving that question to
stat,edaltthwat the
ithnexotrdsi,neaarry.
rNevoewn,ueSir,
wasl have 52,065 al,ooo/.ready,
that the ordinary
0 o/
expenditure was 51,576,0001., leaving
therefore a surplus
f 489,000/. Now, Sir, assuming that
I borrow 8,0000
that amount ? or what will be the annual interest on
the interest course it is obvious that at 3 per cent.
would be D
240,0001.; at 3i, 280,000/ ; and at 4,
320,0001. Sir, I have no doubt in the world of being
able to borrow that a
fore the interest will betohu2enBto,ooo/.;
at 3i—b(uCthleerasm)—atfhrearied-,
Sir, that that is not
dsheampaend which will
be made upon us in
• for there is another destcohrneilpyt•
which, after the best inquiries I halvoenb
theenf able b tto interest,muapk e
I regret to say that I feel myself undere necessity of
There
raising the interest upon Exchequer-bills.
are many reasons which have led to arle rssion of value
in that description of security in thedp markets. The
rate of interest had been already rfaise , and. it might be
eivs4psrnmogt.der4lf thatabia
were 50, it did ap-peer
still further raised in the course
hiz.thostti

• -
that that description of security should be left to be
h...rrowed, like all other kinds of security, in
the money market. Taking all these matters
n-to consideration, he had, though most un-
willingly, determined upon raising the ititersi
on Exchequer • hills.—(Cries of Hear. hear.")
The interest on Exchequer-hills is now three-halfpence
a day. An experiment was made to raise them by
a farthing a day, which so completely failed that it has
been abandoned. I propose to raise them to twopence,
which will make an annual expenditure of 14,000/., and I
c ilculate that the increased interest of debt will be
422,000/. ; so that the total ordinary expenditure,
with the addition of the loan, will make
a sum of 51,998,0001, leaving a surplus of 67,000/.
There has been this year a more than ordi-
nary source of revenue—l mean the balance of
China money yet unpaid from that source.—(Hear,
hear.) This is a matter of certainty, and not calcula-
tion—l expect 450,000/. There is, however, also, an
extraordinary source of expenditure of 185,0001., which
it is necessary to vote in order to cover the naval
estimates in the financial year ending in April last.
So, therefore, adding extraordinary receipts to ordinary
income, and also adding extraordinary expenditure to
ordinary, it leav►s a total
Income
Expenditure

. £52,515,000
52,183,000

Leaving a surplue £332,000
This was not a very satistactory state of the revenue—
rs state of things showing a considerable disproportion
between the income and expenditure. But it
is not our intention, in the present session of Par-
liament, to make a permanent provision on the sub-
ject, partly from the want of information as to the
great amount which may be required, and partly from
the necessity which may exist the next year for further
large supplies to be advanced.—(Hear, hear.) Certainly
it is my anxious desire that there may not
be required more decided measures to equalize
the expenditure to the income ; but if there
should be, then, in another session, the
House must he prepared to make an addition to the
taxation of the country. I will not ask you at present
for any permanent provision; but should the necessity
continue, then I will not shrink from proposing those
measures which I may think necessary and expe-
dient for the purpose of bringing the revenue
proportionate to the expenditure.—(Hear, hear.)
At all events Hon. Gentlemen need not expect that we
shall have any revenue to spare this year.—(Hear, hear.)
And Hon. Members on both sides of the House who
advocate, some a reduction in tea, others a reduction in
coffee, tobacco, and paper, need not expect that
we shall be able to spare any of the revenue
to meet their respective views. I throw out this
intimation, in order that no hopes or expectations
may be excited.—(Hear, hear). Now, I will take this
opportunity of answering a question which was asked
me in the earlier part of the evening, which was,
whether we intended to propose any annual duty in lieu
of the sugar duty. Ido not think there is much import-
ance in this question, because it is my intention to
take two votes—one of which I shall propose to-night—
without which it will be impossible for the ordinary
expenses of the Government to be defrayed. This year the
duty on sugar is arranged for, and next year the income-
tax will come under consideration. At present, however,
it is not my intention to propose any other duty.
—it will be the better course not to propose any annual
duties. Sir, before I sit down, I will simply say that it
is idle to talk of personal regret of that which is an evil
to the public at large, but no person can regret more sin-
cerely than I do the present period of calamity which we all
feel. It is an inteiruption to that course of financial and
commercial policy which has for a considerable time
prevailed, and which during the lust four years has been
carried on with unexampled success.—(Hear, hear.)
It is true that the income-tax may be continued, but it
is entirely changed in its character, when it has been
made the means of governing those beneficial changes
which the Right Hon. Gentleman has proposed.—(Hear,
hear.) Ido not mean now to say that I approve or dig
approve of the whole of them. No person can
more fully concur in the general scope and policy
of those measures which relieve trade from all unnecessary
restrictions, foster the industry of the people, and make
a material addition to their comforts. Just before I
came into the House a paper was put into my hand,
which I am sure will be satisfactory to the com-
mittee, and which I hope may dispel some
portion of the gloom which my statement may
have cast on the minds of Honourable Members.
nSei
rr,t
atihne
nnmstatementberof whichttrtie l
els
,a mat h
eabout
ut ont
pr ead t
ion c
oo contains t ains a
which
has been taken for the last four years. I have
taken those which enter most largely into
the consumption of the great body of the people,
and I think that the Committee will see from
the numbers I am about to read how materially the
comforts of the people have increased by the enlarged
quantities they have been enabled to consume. I first
take coffee. The consumption in 1843 was 30,031,422
lbs.; in 1844, it was 31,391,297 lbs.; in 1843, it was
34,318,095 lbs; and in 1846, it was 36,781,391 lbs. I will
next take butter. There was entered in the year 1843 ,
148,295 cwt.; in 1844, 180,965 cwt.; in 1845 there were
240,118 cwt.; and in 1846, 255,130 cwt. I will next
take cheese. In 1843 there were imported 166,563 cwt ;
in 1844 there were 212,206 cwt.; in 1845 there
were 258,246 cwt.; and in 1846 there were 327,490 cwt.
I shall now take currants, and I find that there were
entered for home consumption in the year
1843
1844
1845 169,000 „
1846
In the article of auger I find that there was entered
for importation in the year.
1843
1844
1845 .
great—
1846
Now in all these articles there hsa,
reduc-
tion of duty, and it will be observed that on the article
of tea—the reduction of the duty on which has been
of late so much agitated—it will be observed that
though the duty on that article has not been reduced,
yet, from other causes, the prices had been considerably
lowered, and a corresponding increase had, therefore,
taken place in the consumption. Now I find that in this
article there has been entered for home consumption in
the years
1843
1844
1845
1846
These were articles which entered largely into the con-
sumption of the great body of the people, and it must be
satisfactory to the House, and is more especially to the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, to observe the increas-
ing imports of these very necessary articles. It
is very satisfactory to me that I am enabled
to make such a statement as this, because
it proves, in a very great degree, the tendency
to increased prosperity of the country, and to extended
comforts among the labouring classes. Sir, I have now
made the statement which it was my duty to do. I hope
that I have made it clear to every one, and I have to
request that if any person has a question to put, he
will put it now, as I am afraid I may
not be able to stay longer in the House. The vote, Sir,
which I have to put into your hands, is a vote of
8,000,0001. out of the Consolidated Fund.
Mr. HUME wished to make one or two observations
on the statement that had just been made. He at once
admitted that the Right Hon. Gentleman had made the
case perfectly clear, and he must add that the Right
Hon. Gentleman had exhibited skill and knowledge in
the statement he had made. He could not consent
to this new grant to Ireland without he
had some pledge to compel the property of
Ireland to maintain its poor—(Hear, hear)—and he very
much regretted that the Right Hon. Gentleman had sat
down without saying one word upon the remedial mea-
sures which had already been promised.—(Hear,
hear.) He must also regret that the Right
Honourable Gentleman, after stating such undoubted
w.%from()irtdh the
raesreltri
obe
ne
these
le
steo policyftuhteuoranfr
tfirocelrfemooroemmfr
reforms
we
%rise,
hd i d
werenot
os a ym
uo
en
he
proof of the wisdom and advantages that have arisen
calculated to increase the c mt,e7 eh
eof d
itah en
octo utnhtirnyke
that the revenue would suffer anything by the reduction
of the duty on that article. Of the 600 000 000 yards of
common calico sent out of this country, 180,000,000'' yards.
of it went to China only.
tett aHo thought that by a
reduction of the duty
of great increase
would be made in the quantity
gssubject
consumption.theec
g
of customable and exciseable articles. lieth
Government was takin
a one O. the
in the course they had proposed. Then, again, with
t
respect to the duty on copper, which amounted only to
the paltry sum of 40,0001. or 50,0001., he thought that
the country lost three times that amount by the system
of policy pursued by this country. France and the
United States were already beginning to smelt their own
copper because of the restrictions imposed on the
article in this country. There were also 150 or 200
articles the duties upon which should be
swept away from the statate•book. Thel whole
policy of the Government seemed to centre in
Ireland. There was no doubt that the state of that coun-
try was one of the greatest emergency; the Government
should, however, treat Ireland as an extraordinary charge
and take the surplus revenue far the purpose of libe-
rating the commerce of the country, treating Ireland
by extraordinary means. He was quite dissatisfied with
the policy pursued by the Government ; the
utmost freedom should be given to the com-
merce and the manufactures of ' the country,
He held a statement in his hands which set forth,
that., during
full theeplmloaystmetnwt,o months, a decrease of
men
part of thseacro.\uintryeahlso;anwheoxartid
in half employment had taken place in one
increase of men
wortrextraordinary
p pemergency
?
(Hsear,
ah
et boynhe
exwtiitaho:ed'hinicahrytheymehaasduretso. deßalyouaght
gtorebaet
change in their commercial policy. Tho surplus
balance was, he believed, 76.000/. ; this year
it was 2,800,0001., which was to be attributed to
exontueotntsiooftnhirsoaftional and proper
measures for
but Ras
carrying
tli,ne, as
theter p r
is; partial
a strong commercialp
proof
th t they
t ought o
tno go
trade, andby remove
promotingth he
the shackles
other
still inp o
measures having for their object the promotion of
commerce unfettered by injurious restriction. He sin-
cerely hoped that such measures would be
brosight forward without delay. Even the money
being spent in feeding the unemployed in
Irela :d and Scotland would promote the regeneration
of the people. Certainly there was no hope
of regenerating the people of Ireland, because
they would lead them to believe that, in similar emer-
gencies, they would be supported by the state, and not
by the owners of the soil who ought to be
compelled to support them. There was more
hope for Scotland, as the proprietors had come
forward glad aided them. Thou every QUO Of the

setimates had been increased. Last session
the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) sought a vote of
1,000,000/. for the purpose of placing the steam navy in
en t ffi ,!ient condition, and the House weeded to the
proposition; but did any one believe that the Navy esti-
ttires mould be increased this year? Instead of such a
proposition. he expected a reduction this year to that
amount. This ought not to occur at such a period.
Looking, therefore, at the great increase which has been
alluded to, and looking at the difficulties of the money
mark t, when the Government were obliged to raise the
interest of their money. He would wish to ask what
would he the effects of the measure upon their
merchants and traders who were carrying on the com-
merce of the country. The income-tax should be ex-
tended to Ireland. The Irish should have fair play—
(Hear, hear.) Yes, they had been an oppressed people;
they had never been given either civil or political privi-
leges. He would give them equal laws, but they should
have equal taxes. (Hear, hear.) In fact, he would at
once extend the whole code of English laws to Ireland.
He regretted that there had been no attempt to equalize
the rate of taxation. In what situation would
they be at the end of August, if there came
another year of scarcity, the Government would find
the echoes from the different parts of the country by no
tneates satisfactory.—(Hear, hear.) According to the
statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman, there was to be
an increase in almost every department of the State—in
the army, the navy, and the ordnance. Now, the Right
lion. Gentleman should have stated the grounds on
which this increase was proposed to be made. Hew was
it that the expense of these departments was to be more
han in 1845, and last year ? Moreover, there should have
been some arrangement by which the 8.000,0001. pro-
pose d to be raised might be paid back within a few years.
The expenditure of 1832 was 5,800,0001. less than the
present year. That was during the unreformed Parlia-
ment. The next year, 1833, under the first estimate of
the reformed Parliament, the expenditure was 7,428,0001.
lest; than the present year. In the year 1835, which was
rather a remarkable year, when the Hon. Member for
Tamworth, then Prime Minister, prepared the estimates
himself, the expenditure was less than the present
year by 7,773,000. He did not include in the present
year's estimates either the 8,000,0001. to be advanced on
the interest, or 400,0001. on the Exchequer Bills. The
House had a claim upon her Majesty's Government to
be told why this additional expenditure was called for
this year. He was told that it was extended upon the
army, navy, and ordnance. Well, let them take 1830,
under the Duke of Wellington's Government, the esti-
mates for the army, navy, and ordnance were less, by
3,000,0001. than the present year; and the miscellaneous
estimates were less by 1,800,0001. In 1840, when they
were engaged in the war with China and a dispute with
France—when they had a large fleet in the Mediterra
nean—when the siege of Acre took place—and when the
large amount expended in Canada had not been repaid—
the estimates were 2,930,0001. less than the present year.
The Right Hon. Gentleman had not attempted to justify
the increase which had taken place in any one of these
departments. He only made his estimate in a clear and
distinct manner. It might be, but still he only men
Honed the sums he wished the House to sanction, without
stating what were the reasons which compelled them to
nave recourse to the House for these amounts. H.,
greed with the opinion of' the Right Hon. Baronet
a
opposite, that no tax ought to be imposed on a country
in a time of peace. But if the Right Hon. the Chan-
cellar of the Exchequer must borrow money, he should
do it in the right way. He should borrow one hundred
pounds of money on every hundred pounds of stock, for
by the operation of the three per cent. consols he would
he adding 800,000/. to the permanent debt of the country.
Now he should like to see the Government commence
the
wouldthi s newt h e
n course;be enabled ari d
reduceupont
the
et if
interest the 3 didpay-
able upon the national debt. But now they were going
upon an eroneous system altogether, in so far as, al-
though the Customs had been abolished, the salaries of
the Custom-house officers had been increased by 49,000/.
while in the three years, 1843, 1844, and 1845, the in-
crease in all the public departments amounted to
234,0001. It behoved the aristocracy of this country to
weigh well the effects of throwing upon posterity the sum
8,000,000; for depend upon it, a time would come
when this debt would be shaken of, and the consequence
would be, that all property would be shaken to its centre.
Mr. ROEBUCK could not allow that opportunity to
pass without entering his solemn protest against the
measure proposed by the Government. In common
with other Hon. Members he considered that the state-
ment of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, could not have been more complete,
more proper, or more frank.—(Hear) ; and he, in
common frith them, regretted the indisposition under
which the Hon. Gentleman laboured whilst delivering
his statement. He deprecated any desire to unfairly
attack or oppose the Government, but he thought on
an occasion like the present—important in the highest
degree—and he believed most imminent and portentous,
that no one should shrink from openly stating their ob-
jection to the propositions laid before the House. First
of all, a suspicion was created in his mind, inconsequence
of the altered course of proceeding. The Government
had already pissed a Bill, creating machinery for distri-
buting relief to the Irish people, and of vesting the per-
sons so appointed with unlimited power over the funds.
This Bill, he believed, had passed the other House. In
addition, they had passed a Bill, which had been impro-
perly called " a Bill of Indemnity," as it was a Bill to
make valid every presentment made at Quarter Sessions
in Ireland, and he believed that such presentments
with scarcely an exception had been made throughout the
whole of Ireland. Yet the Chancellor of the Exchequer
now sought power to make a loan of not less than
8,000,0001., stating, at the same time, that he had in
view the incurring of an expenditure of 10,000,0001.
What was absolutely necessary was a Bill to tax the
proprietors of land in Ireland for the support of the poor.
A Bill of that nature bad been introduced, but it had
been put off since the commencement of the session in
the most remarkable manner. As he should

show from (the conduct of the Noble Lore
et the head of the Government. He (Lord J.
Russell) said that he really hoped and believed
that he was about to encounter no opposition to
the principle of the Bill, which, he stated, was, that the
property of Ireland should be taxed to the amount
which would sustain the poor of Ireland.—(" Hear,
hear," from Lord J. Russell.) Now he (Mr. Roebuck)
understood that seventy of the largest proprietors had
signed a statement in opposition to the Noble Lord's
views. A number of Roman Catholic clergymen had
waited upon him, expressing their dissent at the conduct
of the Irish party. Now these gentlemen represented
themselves as expressing the feelings of the whole of
the Irish people. He was inclined to believe that
they had banded themselves together for the pur-
pose of opposing the proposition of a poor-law for Ire -
land. They are quite willing to receive what money we
will give them. But he did hope that English gentlemen
would make a stand, and that they would not permit any
delusion ; and before they assented to any sum they
should insist upon a poor-law for Ireland. He would
like to know why Irish gentlemen, who came over to
England for six or seven months, and maintained their
carriages, should not he made to pay the same taxes
as the poorest artizan was liable to. (Hear,.) Why
he wanted to know how it was, that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer did not come forward and propose, in order
to meet a portion of the eight millions, if not the
whole, that a property tax be imposed on the landlords
of Ireland. He could not at the present time make a
proposition on the subject, but before the matter was
disposed of he would bring forward that question, and
he did hope that every English gentleman in that House
would support it ; or if they did not, he trusted the con-
stituencies which they represented would vote it. He
would propose that property in Ireland, as well as in
England, should be made to bear the same burden,
so that all might contribute alike. The present was
said to be an imperial calamity, and that it was right
that the United Kingdom should afford relief. Granted ;
it was an imperial calamity, and should be met by impe-
rial measures. Ireland, as well as England, should be
made to contribute. It was said that if they imposed an
income-tax on Ireland, the landlords would never pay.
He did not accede to that ; the landed property of Ire-
land was rated at 13,000,0001. ; and taking that as a
basis, he would tax it to that amount. Irish Members
had stated that the poor-rates were generally
paid, and he did not see any reason
why a property-tax should not also be paid.
If the property-tax be not paid, let the property be sold.
It appeared to him that they should not get out of the
scrape. It was but common justice that they should be
placed upon the same footing as the rest of the UnitedKincrh-
dom. There was one great difficulty to which he wished
to call the attention of the Noble Lord. Government
had gathered together 600,000 men on the public works,
and the next difficulty would be to disband them. They
had been withdrawn from the cultivation of the soil, and
applied to employment of a different kind, and the diffi-
culty now would be to get them to resume their ordinary
notL whollyo
occupations. He admitted that the Government had a
Mr.dRJOOEIII3NuRcUKS_STELhoL--
blame the Government.
difficult problem to solve, more difficult than any body of
men had had for a long time to contend with. He did
extent of six millions.--(Atei rogah
ot
Irelandlli ons ofwa
laaastarving
potato failure.
potatoY
voice
oui
eccera
on
pn, oshtixabdtl
ea
emf us,e) d fortTo They
the
not
ht,ohleowpcevvuerl;
hTanden:,
population to feed.
those who were subjected to the c
use a kind of food superior in ; but
quality
yiwere forced to
to obtain than any to which they yhaandi tre difficult
hitherto been
accustomed. The East India Corwas a paternal
Government, and he meant to use that as a term of high
approbation. It had great power, good intentions, vast
intelligence, and had besides what no Government in
Ireland had to deal with—a docile people. What
was the result which they experienced in
dealing with the visitations of Providence in
India. why, every attempt they made to
alleviate those dispensations had failed, and had been
productive of more evil than if they had done nothing.
So strong, therefore, had this feeling prevailed, that
they were determined to interfere no more with these
dispensations. I 3 'he • were determined to remove all re-
strictions, and to put the people in the way of obtaining
the means of relief, but to abstain f om all interference
themselves. Now the same line of proceeding was
land. e hel in hs han a
exactly applicable to Ire
number Hof gentld i emen, some of
statement made by a nu
with re,,pect to the con-
whom were Catholic clergymen,
dition of Mallow. The Committee stated that the dis-
tress in that town could not the
ot e considered as
resulting from the failure of the potato chrop,
as the sufferers had no land—there been
to account for this—hut
some reasoning at tempted
these gentlemen stated that the same distress prevailed
last and
every year—it was the same the year before
would be found to be the same next year—the greater
part of the population living on one meal in the day for
half the year round. Whatwas the inference he wished
to draw from that statement. It was not to make any
imputation, and therefore he hoped not to be made
the subject of the angry vituperation to which he had been
lately aubjected. The inferepo be.wished to draw from this was

that if Government pursued the course they now proposed,
they would only increase and exacerbate all the evils which
belonged to Ireland. They would encourage that improvidence
and want of forethought which made that people trust upon
every one rather than themselves. They had three millions of
people now deeendine on them, and were expending at the
rate of a million a month for their support, and the conse-
quence of all this would be, that they would demoralise
the people.—(Hear, hear.) He had letters from every
part of Ireland to corroborate what he said, and he knew that
it was true, else he would not say it. He appealed
to every one who knew any thing of Ireland in confirmation
of the truth he had expressed—that the people placed their
sole dependence on the Government. He thanked the House
for allowing him to make these observations, and he would
conclude by warning the Government to abandon this loan for
eight millions. They would find their calculations, as to the
termination of the distress in August, disappointed ; they
would find then that they would have to cope with the same
amount of distress as at present—Parliament not sitting—
themselves unable to meet the emergency—the same cry—
" give"--"give"—still prevailing as at present, and all their
exertions ending in making the mass of misery still greater.
He warned them, therefore, to stay their steps in time, and nit
drag down the people of England to the same condition
as the people of Ireland were at present reduced.
Lord J. le USSELL rose not to add any thing to the state-
ments which had been made by his Right Hon. Friend the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, as he had stated the views of
the Government so fully and clearly that it would be quite
superfluous to do so, but he wished to make a few observations
on the speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had
just sat down, because admitting, as he admitted to the Go-
vernment, that his views were for the benefit of the country,
he was bound to say that he was utterly deceiving himself as
well as Parliament, and the greatest danger and folly would
result from their adoption. In the first place, with regard to
taxation, the Honourable Gentleman said that the income-
tax ought to be extended to Ireland; that the pre.
sent was an imperial calamity; and as Ireland was a
part of the United Kingdom, that it should contribute
its quota by the income-tax to the alleviation of the
calamity. It must be recollected that the present distress
pressed most severely upon Ireland, and the greatest exertion
had been made by the gentlemen of that country to relieve it—
that they had received but a small portion of their ordinary
rents, and had expended in many cases all their usual income.
He said, then, while this was the condition of Ireland, however
right it might be, if the income -tax was to be continued to
this country, to extend it also to Ireland, at the same time,
in the present circumstances of that country, he thought it
would be neither wise nor just to impose the income-tax upon
Ireland. He, therefore, could not agree with the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman in that proposition. The Hon. Gentle-
man then went on to show that the present state of things was
nothing but the ordinary state of Ireland, and he
read a statement which he (Lord John Russell) had seen
in October last. It was, however, a most rash and
unfounded statement to make, that the description there given
was at all like the ordinary state of Ireland. Let them sup-
pose that three-fouths of the ordinary production of the soil
calamityhaNationalv have
emergency,
bewme aingsto Exchequer
t largebapene
tar
differente: sidau:wi meni
at sr::
soit
had failed, could it be said that the state of things which fel-
lowed that was the ordinary or usual condition of the country.
It was this difference which now produced so large an amount
of mortality as now prevailed, and it was clear to every
one, that had net some means been adopted, that the
deaths would have been multiplied ten or a hundred fold. In
England there was a poor-law to meet that state of things, but
what was seeing that they had not resources in Ireland to meet the
enesnooooe
ff-pri
ndlthehi toat:abdanerwyt
iht ehb famine.
oeßuitl
lse
operationsadvancedwndhTeifromcabhynoorhfueadr
tinr
been
ag tdhetmighteo.
introduced, but he could not reconcile himself to allow such a
alleviate, to some extent, the
yp,rbesusture,
yet
haendgavteothesuHpopnly.
Gentleman full credit for a desire to have legal redress for the
money that was to be advanced. They much regretted the
state of the people of that country, but he believed that a great
mistake prevailed with respect to the assertion that the people
had been taken from farm labour to be employed on the public
works, as well to the assertion that there was an amplitude of
employment for the number of persona who might be employed
in farm labour. From the very necessary of the case it was
evident that the holdings were so small that the farmers did not
require the assistance of these labourers, and, therefOre, it is
evident that no injury whatever could have accrued to the
country to any extent. He did not think that the people
had been demoralised by tl.ese works—by the execution
of these task works, so far as the wages were concerned. If
the labourer could obtain the wages for his work, why should
he be demoralised by changing from one kind of work for an-
other, simply because the works on which he was employed
were what might be called useless. Supposing any gentleman
chose to make a piece of ornamental water on his grounds, and
he pad the wages to those who were employed on the work
was it to be called a useless and demoralising work, if the men
than if they had been engaged in
got their wages, any more .
making a harbour, or in deepening a river. But the great
change to be brought over
question was, how was this great .
Irish society ? and that was the question be
to
contemplated—
Whether the landlords or the Government could, by employ-
rovide as to create a permanent supply of
meet of the poor, so p
food for the country? For himself, he thought that by the
mere culture of the lands, it could not be produced in sufficient
time ; and, considering the increase of the population, he was
impressed with the belief that the potato culture could not be
recovered in less than seven or eight years with success. He
perfectly agreed with the observations of the Hon. Gentleman,
that in addition to the great distress of this year, much was to
be apprehended and provided for during the next, and it was
therefore ridiculout not to anticipate great changes. He did
believe that in consequence of this movement that a measure
must be introduced, both in this House and the other House of
Parliament, for an amendment of the poor-law in Ireland ; and
shfwet
teomhae redcodpoon
he stated this, because he believed that the Irish Members
would not, in consideration for their country, oppose such an -
alteration, and he believed that the result would be productive
of great convenience, although he very much regretted the
immediate inconvenience that must, for the present, arise from
it, and which appeared to be apprehended from the few words
that had fallen from the Hon. Member for Coventry, respect-
ing the estimates, for those estimates had been prepared with
the most impartial consideration, for the welfare of the
country. He could certainly tell that Hen. Member, that
those estimates had been prepared with a view to the utmost
economy, so far as it was necessary for the welfare
of the country to consider that point. But it should be recol-
lected that it was necessary to keep np both branches of the
service in such a state of efficiency as would enable them to act
effectually in the event of an invasion of the country. It
should be recollected that last year there had been a great
These estimates had,
increase in both trade and commerce.
indeed, been prepared with a view to preserve the greatertvee
uniformity between the two years, f o that theres
f wereor t hi only
. La i
quarters of the year included in the estimat:io,_
001 ,
and this
year the estimates for these branches was 6, 0 •
last year it was
year it was 6,640,0001. ; during the quarnter
he Ordnance the
9,972/., and this year it was 12,787/.
I t and for this year
estimates last year were for 2,547,000 L,
l
For the
2,679,0001., making an increase of 135 000
'while for this it
corres-
ponding quarter last year it was 67,239!., r . quarteran
rendered necessa D
was 67,256/. This increase had been
ance depart-
addit ion to the number of men required for the Ordn
In the Nagy
went, and in order to render the service effective.
f an addition of
estimates, the increase was 77,426/., being ."r
Coventry
for
1,500 men. He could assure the Hon. Member _
omen
___
that the estimates of the increase of the number otWe.
'n
in-
fer 3,000, hut the Government had only decided up
Russe
ll
crease R 11)
crease of 1,500 for the present year.
He
( Lord
the year
must allow that there had been a large increase
as s
in
nocmore than
1835, hut still he believed that the increase wai
relations, and
justified by the enlargement of our commercia
merce, and
that it was necessary, for the security of that comdourished at
was one of the great reasons why that commerce
was
,0 _
the present period of distress.—(The Noble Lord
some time
umY
cheered throughout his speech, which continued
after he sat down. ) tly admire the
Lord G. BENTINCK could not sufficien
Friend the
clearness of the exposition which his Right If 07;
House, nor
Chancellor of the Exceeqner had made to the
.. ..m
hich had induced to
sufficiently admire the chivalrous bravery w
d deeply did he
to leave a sick bed to make that statement; an
Friend had
( Lord G. Bentinck) regret that his Right
110snt.he discussion
been compelled to leave the House, especially a
the deficiency
might prove useful in that discussion to make gp
stated that he
in the Exchequer. His Right Hon. Friend ha et a increase of
by
was not prepared to make up that deficiency n
i ht well abstain
the income-tax. His Right Hon. Friend
nigiresent stagna-
from making any increase of that tax amid the
liate himself on
tion of trade, and had done well to cony
le.stduerived from the
the increase of the revenue from the taxes
might be an-
taxes on the articles of consumption.
But
t d abstained from
other reason why his Right Hon. Friend had
osed would be
an increase of the income-tax, and this he sups!
t was in its last
found in the fact that the present I'
resent
Government
year, and that neither the members of toe p
torethe country for an
or the late Government would like to gehe
had voted for
election with the knowledge that},
otnotywable Member for
an increase of the income-tax. The
ed great surprise at the
Coventry (Mr. Williams) had express
al forces. Nor was it
great increase of the military and nfanvv
when k© recollected
all surprising that he should do so,
ble Lord who had risen from
the high flown promises of the No w uality, he had pro-
his native woods and forests into his ne
9
mild never have to go
wised the people of Sheffield that he w
dotal
the
navy
in
Mr
to his Right Hon. Friend .i . Ward to mai i
t'llery was to quench its mur-
all its efficiency—that the red ar i
thought the Hon.
Bentinck)
derous battery, and he (Lord G.
,on to complain when he
Member for Coventry had great
srels°oo men were to be added
found that amid all those promise e
The Right Hon. Gen-
to the army and 500 to the marines.
had said that he (the
tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequern
sent to raise four millions
Member for Lynn) would certainly co .. _ . h
f public works, w hie
o
for Ireland, for the purposeleet he should recollect that
were likely to be useless,
had consented
it was d to grant 10,000,000/.
for the same purpose, but
the Ministry to come out of the English
_
Geman d exressed satis.
purse. The Right
Hcm;husentl advancedha was net to be expended
faction that; he mos
nebYut that it was to be advanced for rail.
in Missisippßond 1
The Right Hon. Gentleman had congratu-
ways in Irela d.
e the increase of the taxes derived from
lated the House p° Lion, tion, and had instituted •
a comparison
the articles of consuff
P and butter, and had t t d h
ticles of co ee . . sa e tat
on the the ar rs 1843 and 1845, It increased fro
tween the Pato
240,000 cwt., but now the m
180,000 cwt con-
nted to 250,000 cwt. In cheep the
surnption
amounted
1843 and 1845,
consumption the increase
25y 000 cwt. to 287,000 cwt., but between
was from ,
end the last the consumption ha increased to
that year
h Right Hon. Gent hd b inclined
000 cwt. T e
288,
improvement to free trade and had asserted
all this
the tea there was
of 250 per cent. on returns. Between 1844
an increase
had been an increase of from 41 000 000'b
and 1846 there , .1. of
lbs in the latteryear. In '
tea to 46,000,00 e
from 27 000 00 t
been an increase
of , , 0 32,000,000 lbs. ; and
had been an increase, between 1843 to 1846,
in malt there
46,000,000 •
from 35,000,000 to
, but then it should be recol-
lected that all this increase was to he
The Nobl ascribed to the great
increase of population. e L ord then went through
the several amounts of t}l e sugar and the silk duties, alleging
that in the former the increase was ?wing to the use of slave-
growhatth increas
sugar, and t ein ire duty on sk, from
n
000 was owing to t
218,600 to 297, , he peal of the dot yon
foreign silks• which had been productive
with whom of great distress to
the Suitalfields weavers, he had been placed in
communication ; and yet who, notwithstanding their
own suffering?, bad intimated their intention of con-
tributing to the relief of the &stress in Ireland.
The letter went on to state, " and had your Lordship possessed
the reins of power—( Laughter, and " Hear, hear,")—the peo-
ple of that country would not have perished in the way they
have." This was the expression—the honest expression of the
poor working classes of Spitalfields, for their unfortunate fellow-
subjects in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He agreed with them, and
when he heard from the Right Honourable Gentleman
the statement that in all this large expenditure, but
295,0001_ had been expended to afford a certain kind
of employment for the people of Ireland, he for one
felt deep regret at the smallness of the sum which Her Ma-
jesty's Government, acting upon the principles of political
economy, had advanced. It would be a standard in the face of
Europe, that 250,0)0 Christian people had perished from
starvation in Ireland, while in a neighbouring country, under the
more paternal Government of the King of the French, whose
Government, he believed, had purchased nearly 200,000 of
quarters of grain to feed the people of that country. Not " a
man, or a woman, or a chile."—for,
as the language of Mr.
Burke, in speaking of the scarcity of 1795, had been alluded
to by the Right Hon. Gentleman, he might be allowed to quote
him—yes, not " a man, woman, or child had died from starva-
tion in France."o—(Heart hear.) And was it possible that the

Irish people, when many of them had perished by thousands,
could abstain from comparing their condition and
their treatment with that which the people of
France met with at the hands of that Government. It was not
his intention to trouble the House at any length upon that occa-
sion ; but he must say that it did strike him as somewhat sur-
prising, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should come
down to the House and state that before long it was his inten-
tion to contract a loan, and that it was his intention to pay 3!
per cent. Why, 3i per cent. was not the interest which he
found very general at the present moment ; and he (Lord G.
Bentinek) could not help supposing that those who had money
to lend, hearing that the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed
to pay 3i per cent., would not accept less, although they might.
perhaps, have been disposed, if the amount had not been speci-
fied, to take a smaller rate.
Mr. SHAW said at the time the income-tax was imposed on
this country there was no machinery to carry out such a tax in
Ireland. But the Hon. Gentleman was the very man to-night
who, at such a time, would advise the imrosition of such a tax
on Ireland. If the burden was an imperial one, he was at a loss
to know why Ireland should pay full half of it. If the public
works were stopped suddenly, he could not see what would
be done with the persons employed on those works at the pre-
sent moment. The small farmers, who were but Blighty re-
moved from the holding of a " cottier" tenement, paid as long
as they could their tenants in potatoes ; but if the public
works had not offered employment to the starving,
grea'ar mortality would have been the result.
The ca'amity had not been confined to Ireland, but had
extended to parts of this country, awl on the continent ; and
in such a state of things, it was incumbent upon this country
to come forward and aid those suffering in another part of the
kingdom. In referring to the statement of the Hon. Gentle.
man, with regard to the poor-law, he (Mr. Shaw) begged to
say ;hat he was wholly opposed to an indiscriminate out-door
relief ; but as that was not the proper time to discuss a perma-
nent poor-law for Ireland, he would not address the House with
respect to it. He did not, however, object to giving out-door
relief during such a calamity as the present. He did not say
that every man in this country did as he ought to do; but this
he could say, that the resident landlords and absentees of
Ireland had subscribed to the funds being raised to the utmost
of their power.
Mr. ROEBUCK explained that what he meant to say, was
that the landowners of Ireland had exacerbated the evils of
that country. If an inquiry were granted into the matter, he
could prove that even the resident landowners had not con-
tributed to the fund for the relief to the poor, to the utmost of
their power. It was the gentlemen of the country who were
thus to blame, and not the farmers and other persons of Ireland
who were to blame. If Englishmen would join him, he would
drain the land of Ireland for the support of Ireland's poor.
The land of England had been mortgaged for the support of the
should
f Irelandhem ert
mortgaged
waendd
forit wa as
similarb r ipguhrtpot hs
ea that.—
the(
h(eHseoairl ohfe
alrr.e)l and
pm'lrlr. GOULBURN would not then deal with an im-
proved poor-law for Ireland. He knew no question more
difficult to deal with than the one on which the Right Hon.
Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had addressed
them. Is was impossible he thought, to lay a statement more
clearly before the House ;hen he had done—( Hear)—and the
office was one of great responsibility, inasmuch
as a gentleman in his position had to pursue impor-
tant measures for the present, and at the same time
to keep in view whatever exigencies might occur. The
Right Honourable Gentleman began his speech by a statement
of the expectations which be (Mr. Goulburn) held out on a
form :r occasion with respect to the public revenue of the year
which had just elapsed. He (Mr. Goulburn) said that he had
stated that he anticipated there would be a surplus next year
exceeding 776,0001. He confessed he had entertained sanguine
expectations that that surplus would have been greater ;
but as reductions of duty were made, it was impossible at the
time to which he referred to form an accurate estimate of the
revenue which would be derived from the increased consumption,
yet although his expectations were of a large amount, he did
not estimate so large a sum as that which those reductions had
already produced. Thus, instead of being 776,000/., it would
be nearly 3,000,0001. The Hon. Gentleman made, he thought,
one error when he stated that he (Mr. Goulburn)had no right
to calculate upon an increase in the sugar duties, because he
stated that he was not the author of the alteration in these
duties, but when slave and free grown sugar were admitted into
this country, a great increase in the consumption took place.
The increase in free sugar had been 1,700,000 ewts., while the
increase in slave-grown sugar was only 400,000 cwts. ; so that
the increase of slave-grown sugar had not increased to an ex-
tent to influence the revenue. Unquestionably the great in-
crease in the revenue was in consequence of the facilities
offered to manufactures, and to the cheapening of articles of
food, by which the comforts of the people had been materially
enhanced. The Noble Lord said the Right Hon. Gentleman
had encouraged the introduction of the silk of other countries ;
but if they had admitted raw silk into this country, they had ex-
ported to other countries a great increase of manufactured silk.
From the returns, it appears, that in 1844, the quantity of raw
silk imported was 3,600,000 lbs. ; in 1845, 3,700,000 lbs. ; in
1846, 3,900,0001b5. ; showing a large increase in quantity over
the antecedent years of the raw material imported. With re-
spect to the experts, he might state, that silks to the value of
692,0001. was exported in 1844 ; in 1845, to the value of
700,0001. ; in 1846, to the value of 768,0001. ; being an in-
crease of 68,000/. of the manufactured silk exported in the pre-
ceding year ; showing clearly that, however large the quantity
of raw silk imported Into these countries, the export trade has
received a corresponding activity. That the manu-
facturers had suffered largely from the high prices of
provisions, he regretted to say he could not doubt,
But the Noble Lord further went on to say that it was net
merely on the articles of silk that consumption had increased.
He told them that an increase had taken place on malt and
hops and other articles on which there had been a reduction.
Why he admitted that such was the case—that was part of the
advantage derived from that very system which he (Mr. Goul-
burn) had the honour of introducing to that House, which gave
increased power to the industrious to purchase, by reducing
the taxes on the raw material. But he told us that it was
owing to a system of railways introduced into the country, and
a large sum. of money expended mostly under the direction of
the Hon. Member for Sunderland, but he ought to have re-
collected that the expenditure on railways has not been con-
fined to the last year, but to some years antecedent, years in
which there had been the greatest deficiency in the revenue.
He found that the London and Birmingham had expended
8,000,0001. ; that the Grand Junction had expended 4,500,0001.;
the Brighton 2,800,000/. He did not wish to disparage
the effects which railways had upon the country, but he sa,d
that it was not just or accordant with the fact to ascribe to
them the augmentation which had taken place in the revenue,
which had arisen from a reducti, n on the articles of prime
necessity. The Hon. Member for Montrose considered that
the Government should have raised a loan in order to relieve
anti keep down taxation. It was true that they had reduced
the taxation when there had been a surplus of revenue
to warrant it, in the hope that the revenue would
come round by the increased consumption. But to
the borrowing money from year to year, for the purpose of
reducing the taxes, would be to involve the country in a round
of deficiencies and misfortunes. The review of the financial
state of the country could Lot be but satisfactory to the party
with whom he had acted, and in this moment of difficulty and
danger, they could not but feel that it was by firmly and man-
fully providing for contingencies, that the country was in so
good a position. They should have been involved in a series of
deficiencies and difficultie ' if they had followed the advice of
the Honourable Member for Montrose, he came new to the
consideration of how the emergency was to be met. Some
Honourable Gentlemen insisted that it should be by a loan,
oagmhcfdeahi
onvfAnaopeeanoyl t
minable
li
eel
dnetrl but by
others that Ireland should have been taxed to the fall amount
of her necessity. But he considered that when a great over-
whelming calamity brought upon the land not by human
blighted, and their subsistence removed, that they should bow
coun-
try, he considered
b ysafoytatratethi
ashwthrmethiehi
hneoeheolognyaetfehpnrhet
neefilaboahtaodnituaafopaotltadprldnefedwrrl
cosbobeajptfaewraoouontrbysmhs
teywwomtwoda
xa,ahrhhpssefsi
alooosatntdsrstheeoi
teoawdhulnorepeaewworac, only
tnnedoev
uysai
determinationmslelni
satisfactoryddri
teeheoyeaobl
anaitnfeidi
hents
laadatrwcs:
Itleootol
to the infliction, and submit to the existing state of the
emergency, and he considered that it should be lent with the
se-
cure the repayment of this loan, but now the only effect would
Iybaal
Gentleman
een
rrmdd distinct
gtnoei
wr
nsgo dhahel
ei
o tnd(
as
tbtue,
destroy
declaration
be repaid
leave the country, or to leave undone those duties which they
were now so stedfastly pursuing. As far as regarded the Go-
of the Right Hen. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer ; and it was a pledge that he intended to pursue a sound
mea-
sure should not be dependent upon the exchequer alone, which
should be protected from the evil effects of drawing from it so
Mr. VERNON SMITH said that the Right Honourable
the expression used by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when
he said that he would call the advances to Ireland a loan, and
in his statement as to the way in which he intended to raise the
money, he thought that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
been more in the wrong even than the Right Hon. Gentleman
had supposed, for he (Mr. V. Smith) thought that if the
money had been raised upon interminable annuities, that money
would be much more safe, and would reflect less burden upon
the country. He thought that the people of England were at
present not aware as to the extent of the measure they were
entering upon and its effects upon their finance. He gave them
the fullest credit for generosity of feeling in adopting any mea-
sures for the relief of Ireland, and he thought that having entered
upon the question they intended to provide against any such
olgmaowgnrwacenrtoiriuhtefhiettrihn eesonx.tEgc llxsiusacdhfheeepdirouo:re; voersmr,mt yhaa,
di;nsedbm,
huiitnisndshtetahhti
eest hmgooeupuneigst.htihiotoenn,te
ohwoeufhl means
when the
e.ts,
calamity in future, by placing such property upon an equality
THOMPSON said, that he had heard with great
satisfaction the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
with regard to the finances of the country ; but lie (lid think
there would not be very long any surplus in the Exchequer. He
did not think that the Government was properly aware of the
expense they would have to incur in relieving Ire-
land, for the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said
that he was not sanguine that the current revenue of the
country would meet the demands upon it ; and, under the cir-
cumstances, he thought that considernble caution should be
used in making any large advances, as Ireland was not in a
state to bear any taxation for repayment at present.
Mr. MOFFAT was surprised that the speech of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had made no mention of the annual
grants. The Government bad promised to place the annual
vote on something else, but, it seemed, nothing was to be done
at present. He hoped the Government would reconsider the
question, and that the House would not slightly part with the
power which it had over these annual votes of money.
Mr. F. BARING differed with the Honourable Gentle-
man. So far from thinking the annual vote being
necessary, on the other band, he was glad that the
Right Hon. Gentleman had decided to get rid of this annual
botheration about particular taxes ; and in making that
change he did not think the Constitution or the people would
stiffer thereby. With
Hon. regard
Gen t tl
Gentleman
mtahne h state
ad made
a od fe
athe u country h
statemente
and income there appeared to be a surplus of 400,000/. on the
ipgrliotspects. Taxing the estimated expenditure
raised by extraordinary means.
Exchequer
h
beefliietsvefideatheeeiaßl
he been s
ee
soon
enough possible t to be have
f
uer (Mr. Goulburn),
that the late Chancellor of the xc
state-
ment o
endeavour to make the increase always meet
that they should
year. This was leaving out of view
He thietemagorneeeydpwriotphotsheed tobe
do so when he held the
had had three as good harvests as that
oontrari. Perhaps if he
hould have had as good a surplus
ht Hon Gentleman, he s
Rig • ally as the late Government. He con -
the expenditure, and thaotffilicee(,3mlru.eßharaisngit),mhiagdhtenbdeesnaviodutroedthteo
in the Exchequer
statementannua
man the Chancellor .
and he uite agreed with
of
ff the
the REig.hctheHtieoenrour(atlre. Gweneetl,eo-
difficultyby t
him that. they ought
some Hon. Gentlemen had objected to that
step. No doubt
the best course left the Government in
course, but that was the
Had it been ever so desirable, he did
present circumstancet• meet the un ex raor
not think it would
of a permanent character
t a similar aspect to the present
digestedservice. measures
Should,
decidedly of opinion that some means would
one, then he was
ake u the deficiency other than by loans
have to be taken to
or
Hon. Member for Coventry, that the pre-
not agree with the
nts for several years past, had been
d past Governments,
sent an
vagant, and that they ought to have reduced she
very eztra
In answer to that, the Government had been, all
expenses.
the funding of a mpermanPent debt.—( Hear, hear.) He did
things
representations made to them, there would have been a much
however, the next year present
greater increase than there had been. Still there had been a
considered, very economical. Had they yielded to the
there
increase notwithstanding. From 1835 to 1846
there bad been an actual increase of seven minim
aalaabmasttt.jmihnhepoetgdeecieisir.ytleneselattpecmdno doetteuuel rctldstehodto

this was exclusive of the charge for collection,
and the charges on the debt. This, however, was not perhaps
"-*

a fair representation, but taking 1835 to 1846 there had been
an increase of five millions in the year's expenses. 1830 was
before the Whigs came into power, who made a considerable
reduction ; still, at the end of 1846, there had been an increase
of five millions in the year's expenses.—(Hear, hear. )
He thought that when they had before them the prospect of
next year increasing the burdens of the country ; he did think
—perhaps it might be impertinent in him to tell the House so—
that it would be better for it to change its conduct, rather than
impede Ministers, and cause their country to bleed at every
pore.
Mr. AIUNTZ said that it had been alleged that they aught
not to increase the taxes at that period, but he did not see the
force of this reasoning. Why should they not have an in-
creased property-tax? He thought it would be better to have
their difficulties placed before them, instead of deferring the
consideration of them to a future year. He was in favour of
moderate taxation, as opposed to the measure introduced that

.. .....,
night, and would give his vote for it accordingly.
Mr. B. ESCOTT thought that if the Members of that

House went back to their constituents, the better it would be

for the country. The Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn, had
given the true solution of the policy of the Government, when
he said that this was the last session of the present Parliament.

But the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Portsmouth,
had told them very significantly that the question of finance
must be considered in Parliament next year. He certainly

thought this his Right lion. Friend, the able Chancellor of the
Exchequer would (as he was sure the Speaker who had last
spoken, or the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn could) have
introduced a better measxre than that he had presented them.
He thought that when this enormous sum was wanted, a con-
siderable reduction of taxation should have taken place.
EWART was opposed to the principle of the resolution
introduced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Those who
looked to the interest of the country, must sooner or later turn

their attention to the principles of direct taxation.
Mr. G. BANKES was glad to see that the measure of the
_ _ _

Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn, wa4 receiving a greater
degree of favour in that Howe now, than it did when it was
first brought forward. The Noble Lord had proposed that
they should have same return for this outlay of money,
whereas, now it was proposed that they should
advance the large sure of 8,000,000/., without the
least prospect of a return. The lion. Member for Winchester
was pleased to say that he did not receive the Noble Lord's
proposition when it was first propounded, with the same favour
that be did now. No wonder. The Hen. Member, it was

quite clear, up till now had not taken the trouble to under-
stand it. His Noble Friend proposed, not that the money, but
the credit of England, should be brought to the aid
of the people of Ireland ; but Government proposed
they should give, not the credit, but the money of
England, without a chance of a return.—( Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth has asked his
Noble Friend what was the credit of a country. He would
tell the Right Hon. Baronet, in the words of a distinguished
predecessor of his own, Mr. Pitt said "the credit of a country
was not its storms, but its sunshine, which gives life and spirit
to everything around without injuring the principle from which
it emanates." His Noble Friend had endeavoured to throw

the sunshine of the credit of England over the plains
of Ireland, and he did not envy the man who could
throw his shadow in its way. Ireland had a great
claim upon this country, and England ought not to
shrink from redeeming the pledges of Mr. Pitt, given at the
time of the union. The time had now come when these pro

mises ought to be fulfilled, and the only way to do so, was to
fertilise the plains of Ireland, through the medium of English
credit.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL begged leave to remind the Hon.
Gentleman who had just sat down, that the proposition of the
Noble Lord would not have been a substitute for the eight mil-
lions proposed to be advanced by the Government. The money
advanced under the Noble Lord's Bill would have been in ad-
dition to the eight millions. When the Honourable Gentle-

tleman said that he did not think any portions of
the eight millions would be returned, it was his duty as an
Irish representative to tell him that a portion of it, if not the
whole, which it was proposed to advance as a loan, would be
paid, and punctually paid—at all events, were it not, he should
be prepared to support the application of the principles of di-
rect taxation to Ireland.—( Hear, hear). Much credit was
due to the Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn, for having
mooted the principle of assisting Irish railways with English
capital, and while he did not agree with the details of the
Noble Lord's plan, he hoped shortly to see Government
introduce a measure based upon the same principle.
He was gratified to witness the good feoling on the part of
Hon. Members of that House towards Ireland. He was also
gratified to hear the Hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Roebuck)
speak in such terms of approbation of the course of conduct
pursued by the Government towards Ireland, and seemingly
to forget so much of those great powers of reason by which he
sometimes addressed the House, and under cover of which he
(Mr. Roebuck) sometimes appealed to the prejudices of Hon.
Members.

Mr. FINCH thought that the present unfavourable state of
the circulation of the country, and the high rate of interest,
arose from the deficiency of a well-regulated system of paper
money. If such a system were in existence, the Chancellor
of the Exchequer would be able to save the sum of 800,000 i.
in the loan he was about to contract. He wished to be under-

stood with reference to the proposed grant for the relief of
Ireland, that if the sum of eight, ten, or twenty millions were
to be instrumental in raising the moral and physical condition
of the people of Ireland, he should say that the money would
be well spent —The resolution was then agreed to.
The House resumed.
Mr. GREENE brought up the report which was ordered
to be reported to-morrow.
LABOURING POOR (IRELAND) BILL.

The report upon this Bill was brought up, and the Bill
ordered to be read a third time to.m,rrow (Wednesday).
LANDED PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL.
This Bill went through Committee, and the report was
ordered to be received to-morrow.
AGRICULTURAL TENANT-RIGHT BILL.

Mr. PUSSY moved that this gill be read a second
time, with an undet standing that it should be referred to a
Committee up stairs.
Colonel SIBTHORPE objected to the Bill, as he thought
it would create a jealousy between landlord and tenant calcn-
teed to produce the greatest mischief.
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT did not object to the meatire
though he came down to the House with very different feel.
ings regarding it. He hoped, however, that after it wss re-
ferred to a Select Committee up stairs, it would come down
shorn of its objectionable provisions.
Mr. MILES agreed with the lion. Member who had jest
sat down, and he hoped when the Bill should come down
from the Committee it would be such as to be acceptable to all
parties.
After a few words from Mr. FINCH to the same effect,

Mr. NEWDEGATE thought that the object of the Bill
ought to be to assimilate the principle of the Bill with the
practice that prevailed between landlord and tenant, and that
it would be unwise to interpose any bar to mutual agreements
between them.
Mr. B. ESCOTT believed that as this Bill was to be sent
up stairs it would be useless to say anything about it, but as
the object of it was the great question among the farmers of
this country, he only trusted that the consequence of
sending it up stairs, would not be, as he feared it would be,
to shelve it for the present session.
Mr. HINDLEY thought that the Bill had been so care-
lessly drawn that the effect of it would be to render the position
of the farmer worse than it was now, for the consequence
would be only for landlords to keep their tenants constantly
under notice to quit. He trusted, however, if it were sent up
stairs, that every clause would be searchingly gone through.
Sir W. JOLLIFFE thought that if this Bill were to extend
to every part of the country, the tenants' rights in Surrey and
Sussex would be very much restricted.
Mr. PUSEY said that in reply to the observation that the
Bill was carelessly phrased, he had to say that it hadbeen drawn
up by one of the first conveyancers in London. From several
years experience with the improvement of the country, he had
been led to turn his attention to this subject, and the Bill was
the result of many years experience.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be re-
ferred to a Select Committee.
BIRTHS, DEATHS, AND MARRIAGES (SCOTLAND
BILL.)
The LORD ADVOCATE moved for leave to bring in a
Bill for the registration of births, deaths, and marriages in
Scotland. Any one, he thought, who was acquainted with the
parochial registers of Scotland, could not fail to see the neces-
sity of such a Bill.
Mr. FORBES did not so much object to the principle of
the Bill, as to the expenses which it would involve.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
MARRIAGE IN SCOTLAND.
The LORD ADVOCATE moved for leave to introduce a
Bill to amend the law of settlement affecting the constitution
of marriage. His object was to narrow the evidence with re-
spect to marriages, to have them registered, and to make the
registry accessible to all parties, and not in any way to affect
the religious law on the subject. The subject was one of the
utmost importance to the people of Scotland.
Sir J. GRAHAM said he was excessively glad that such a
measure had been undertaken by the Noble and Learned Lord.
He considered that the most flagrant abuses had existed in the
facility which was given to parties not resident in Scotland,
but merely passing over the borders for the purpose of con-
tracting marriage without the licence of their parents and
guardians.
The LORD ADVOCATE said that the subject was one
of great difficulty, but it would be very easy to introduce a
short clause, by which, the registrar would be prevented from
solemnizing a marrirge unless one of the parties had been resi-
dent in the country for a certain number of days before the
marriage.
The House then adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock.

THE STORY OF LILLY DAWSON, BY MRS. CROWE,
AUTHOR OF "SUSAN HOPLEY," 3 VOLS.—The above work
is published this day, by Mr. Colbum, and may now be hart
at all the libraries. Mr. Colburn has also just published the
following new novels :-2. Temptation and Atonement, by
Mrs. Gore, 3 vols.-3. Father Eu.stace, a Tale of the Jesuits,
by Mrs. Trollope, 3 vols.-4. Strawberry-bill, by the author
of " Shakspeare and his Friends," 3 vols.-5. The Romance
of War; or, the Highlanders in Spain, by J. Grant, Esq..
late 62d regiment, 3 vols.-6. Cesar Borgia, by the author
of " Whitefriars," second edition, 3 vols.-7. Marston, by the
author of " Salathiel, " second edition, 3 vols.-8. Emilia
Wyndham, by the author of " Two Old Men's Tales," 3 vols.
—9. Adventures of Capt. O'Sullivan, by W. H. Maxwell,
Esq , 3 vols.
ITALIAN OPERA, PARIS. —47 Don Giovanni has
enjoyed remarkable success this season, with Coletti for the
the Don; Lablache, Leporello; Mario, Ottavio ; and Mmes.
Grisi, Persiani, and Corbari as Donna Anna, Zerlina, and El-
vire. Coletti looked magnificently as Giovanni, and gave 6,
few solos allotted to the character with voluptuous grace.
Mario's only air," II meo tesoro, was poor, in comparison with
Rubini's execution of that well-known melody; his voice
was, however, out of order on the first night, but was sub-
sequently much better. Lablache was, as usual, an
.unap-
proachable Leporello, and Mmes. Grisi and Persian' were
admirable as Anna and Zerlina; we own, however, that we
could spare some of the profusion of ornaments introduced
by the latter lady into the delicious music of her part, which
requires nothing of the kind. Such additions may be of use
in some modern Italian operas, but Mozart is of another
school. The beauteous trio of the three masks is nightly
encored, and the finale of the first act, that touchstone of ar •
tistical execution, is gone through satisfactorily, without
being quite what is desirable.— Galignani.
ROYAL CALEDONIAN ASYLUM.—His Grace the
Duke of Cambridge and the Duchess, and the Princess
Mary, and the Prince Frederick of Hesse, visited this insti
tution yesterday, where they remained upwards of two hours,
They expressed themselves highly delighted with the cheer-
ful
"
and hearty appearance of the boys. A band, consisting
of thirty of the leoys, played several national airs, while
rest danced on the lawn, all of them in fulls: Highland
costume. The Princess Mary requested Captain Lamont.
R.N., to give the boys a holiday, to which he readily ac-
ceded.

BANWELL IRON COMPANY.—The first meeting of
this 'company was held yesterday at the office in Thread-
needle-street. The chair was taken by B. Barnett, Esq.,
when a report was read, which showed that the operations
at the mine, which had only been a short time commenced,
had induced the directors to believe that the enterprise
would turn out very productive, and that the ore would be
rich in proportion, that extracted having produced, at least
`forty-four per cent. of iron. The report and accoipta were
adopted,when Wes weak% adjowned.