The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-26 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 26, 1841.

people.—(Loud cheers.) He believed that the Hon. and
Leal ned Gentleman was libelling his eountry—( Vthement
cheering)—when he insinuated that they would not assist us
in repelling the attacks of Fratiee or A merie,a ; if by any un-
fortunate occurrence of circumstances a gnu rel should arise
with either of those countries. He had heard with pleasure
the more generous, and he believed the more just representa-
tions of an Irishrepresentative—of an Irish Roman Catholic,
who, indignant at the attacks made upon the fair fame and
character of his country last night—in the course of that night's
debate said that he did not believe that if a quarrel came his
countrymen would separate themselves from the desTinies of
this country, but had made it his proud boast that, whatever
might be the.r domestic quarrels on the registration, or the
extension of the franchise, the Roman Catholic priests would
be the first to rally their flocks round the standard of England,
and forget all minor differences in their eager support of the
common cause.—( Cheers.) Hehoped the Right Hon. the Secre-
tary at War, the Hight Hon. the Vice-President of the Board of
Trade, and the Hon. Member for Liskeard, the three who
had attempted by menace to extort from the House con-
cessions, even against their reason and against their
conviction, if so it might be—he hoped they bail
listened to the speech of the Honourable and Learned
Member—he hoped they had well considered what prospect
there was of those concessions being made on the same grounds,
arguments for the subsequent menaces—he hoped that after
the candid avowal of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman they
would consider what further concessions the Hon and Learned
Gentleman might hereafter demand in the course, perhaps, t f
next Session, as the price of the purchase of peace.—( Cheers. )
That was the only part of the speech of the Hon. Gentleman
for which he could give him credit. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman said, that if they granted him that coace,sion, it
would disarm him of much of his power. But what was the
tenor of the who'e of the first part of the speech of the Hon.
Gentleman? Did he not tell them that although they had
made a sacrifice of one-fourth of the revenues of the
Established Church fir the sake of peace earl concilsa-
tion that that would now be of no advsntaire unless
the other three-fourths were sacrificed ?—( hood cheer-
ing.) What was the spirit of the whole of the speech of the
Honourable and Learned Gentleman ? With the expres-
sions of peace and conciliation on his lips, such a deter-
mined profession of into'erance he had never heard —(Loud
cheers.) Why he had brought it forward as a matter of grave
charge against a clergyman of the Church of England that he
bad done, what? That he had petitioned the House of Com-
mons. Why, the lion. and Learned Gentleman ha l begun
his own speech by reading a petition to the House of Commons
from a Vicar-General of the Roman Catholic Church. If a
Roman Catholic Vicar-General might, in s•rong and emphatic
langu ge, not immediately connected with his religious func-
tions, petition the House of Commons—and who
_questioned his
right to do so—surely the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
might extend the same measure of justice to a minister
of the Established Church, who, having heard that the
sacrifice of a quarter of the revenues of that Church
had done nothing for the purchase of peace, but that the re-
mainder was required, had presented a petition to draw the at-
ten ion of Parliament. Surely the Lion. Gentleman could
not contend that that was inco rect or unreasonable.—(Loud
cheering.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had com-
plained of attacks on the Judges. Certain of the Judges had
agreed with him jn opinion, and their opinion had been com-
mented on ; and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman said that
nothing could be so unwarrantable sir so unworthy as to call
the purity of the Judicial Bench in question. But five minutes
had not elapsed before the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, find-
ing that the Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench (Mr. Justice
Crampton) differed with him in opinion, attacked that Learned
Judge in the most vehement manner, forgetting all he had
said of the unworthiness of these attempts at the degradation
of the Judicial Bench.—((`beers.) If the extension of the fran-
chise were just —if it were consistent with past engagements--if
it were consistent wish the great leei.lative Act which had
given emancipation to the Roman Catholics—if it would con-
duce to the order and social welfare of Ireland he would en-
treat the House to forget the inflammatory lanugage of the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman—to forget the spirit ofhis decla-
mation, which was so calculated to injure any cause, and to do
what was just in spite of the advocacy of the Learned Gentleman.
lf, however, they were not satisfied that it was politic to dis-
turb settlements that now existed—not to disturb but to sub-
vert them—if they thought it would not procure the social
welfare of Ireland, then he would say, don't pass it in the hope
that by passing it they would secure the favour of that Hon.
and Learned Gentleman, or advance the cause of conciliation.
—(Cheers.) Why did he say this? The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had insinuated that the diminution, or rather the
want of an extended representation in Ireland, was a greater
injury than no representation at all. The Hon. Gentleman
had used these words, that it was not only an injury but an in-
sult to the people of Ireland to give that country 105 Members.
The Hon. Member had also used these words which were appli-
cable to the Noble Lord opposite, that it was natural that
those who were injured and insulted should continue to hate
them. Now he ( Sir R Peel) was not the man who had in-
jured or insulted them. It was the Government who passed
the Reform Bill that was responsible.—( Hear, hear.) Would
it not be wise, therefore, that they should well consider the
whole of the question, not making any partial distinctions ; but
if they were to make concessions against their reason and con-
viction for the sake of peace, they should make the whole con-
cession that was demanded from them, and not give to the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman that by which he would extort the
rest, without even purchasing a temporary calm.—(Cheering. )
Supposing that the foreign prospects were more cloudy next
year than now, and supposing that the Honourable Gen-
tleman should give his notice for !extended 'representation,
and supposing that the Honourable Gentleman had said,
If you don't give it to me I shall force it from you, would that
Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary at War, tell them that
they should concede that which was asked, for the parpose of
making Ireland available as the right arm of England? The
Hon. Member for Liskeard had seemed to dwell with much
complacency upon that state of things, when insurrection did not
break out, but when he said by the cunnipg device of the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman insurrection was ready to break out.—
( Hear.) He had heard with disgust it stated that the present
was a question not of votes but cif arming—(Cheers)—would
the demand for increased representation be a question of arm-
ing and not of votes? Would the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman promise, if this concession were made, that he
would abandon all future schemes of agitation, and de-
part from those devices by which he keeps a country
under the menaces of insurrection.—(Cheers.) He had al:
ready disturbed the peace of the country, interrupted its in-
dustry, and prevented the importation of capital into it—
(Cheers)—and would he accept the compliment of the Hon.
Member for Liskeard, that he it was who had devised an in-
strument eminently applicable for the purposes of insurrection?
If the present measure was a just one—if it was for the welfare
of Ireland, then he trusted that, notwithstanding the state-
ments of that Hon. and Learned Gentleman, the House would
show its determination to do justice to Ireland. Let those
who had public duties to perform claim to themselves the
privilege of dispassionately considering whether the measure
then under their consideration was a measure perfectly con.
sistent with the best interests of Ireland, and whether
it was calculated to advance the independence of the electors,
and promote the social welfare of the country.—( Hear, hear. )
He would now consider what the real nature of the present
proposal was. Could they deny that it was a proposal to sub-
vert the present representative system in Ireland, and to give
a new representative system? By the Bill it was proposed, in
the place of the present franchise in Ireland, to have a declared
franchise, and rating to the extent of 5/. In England they
had a declared franchise, independent and beyond all rent and
charges. In Ireland they proposed to attach no such condition
to the freehold—the mere rating of the freehold was snfficient
to give a vote.—( Hear, hear.) The freehold itself might be
worse than nothing ; there mig:it be mortgages or other in-
cumbrances upon it absorbing altogether the profits.
In Ireland that would be no disqualification.
(Cries of " Hear, hear.") The freeholder, onee rated, was not
called upon to give that assurance which the English freeholder
must give, that his freehold was above rents and charges. In
Ireland the freehold franchise was to be entirely free from
them. They proposal a lease freehold franchise of fourteen
years, for which they required nothing more than a rating to
the poor. Of course residence was not required. All that
was required was occupancy. That franchise was a more ex-
tensive one than the household franchise. It was not the rid
scot and lot franchise which was abolished, because the scot
and lot vo er was dependent ; for it was not necessary for a
five pound leaseholder to pay any taxes ;it was not necessary
for him to pay the Poor-rates. Nay, it was not necessary that
the property which he held should be liable to the Poor. rates.
Though his property was chargeable to the Poor-rate, he was
under no obligation to pay it. Therefore, in the case of the
freehold franchise, as he had said before, it was free from
rents and incumbrances. In the case of the leasehold fran-
chise, it exempted the voter altogether from any obligation to
pay the rate in respect of which the franchise was acquired. In
the towns they had reduced the franchise arbiti arily from ten
pounds to five. Had they assigned any reason for this ? Had
they proved that the franchise in towns was diminished?—
(Hear, hear.) Had they any suspicion that it was so? Now,
he did not intend to enter at all into the details of this ques.
tion ; not one word would he say about beneficial interest,
not one word about the solvent tenant test. When his Noble
Friend's Bill came on he should be ready to discuss the de-
tails of it; " but I will not permit myself" (addressing
the Government benches), "to be diverted from the
consideration of the deformities of your measure by being
drawn into a discussion upon the clauses of my Noble Friend's. "
( Loud cheers.) The introduction of that Bill was the main
argument upon which this measure was made to rest.—
Not one word had they heard from Ministers in defence of
this measure.—(Hear, hear.) They had not said one word
to convince them that they were consulting the real interests
of the people ; they had not said a word to prove that the mea-
sure would be for the social welfare of Ireland. The single
argument which they brought forward as a justification of this
measure was, that his Noble Friend had brought forward
some other measure for the amendment of the registration.
Now, in order that he might not be misconstrued, he would
say at once that he admitted the evils which were so generally
complained of arising out of the uncertainty of the franchise,
and the necessity that there was for adopting some mode of de-
fining and determining it. He admitted, too, that these evils
_

Upon that occasion he said that, hating forwarded the Reform
Bill, he telt himself bound, by the engagements then entered
into, and that although the people were not precluded from
requiring a reconstruction of the representation—( Hear, hear)
—yet he would be ' guilty of a breach of faith
and honour towards those with whom he thus acted, if he
coulteaeneed such demands. Ho quoted that for the purpose
of de.nonstrating, that, although it might be competent for
Parliament to revoke and repeal a solemn act like the Reform
Bill, although there was no written p edge given, yet there
might be circumstances in which public men, having engaged
the consent of large masses of the people, having made con-
cessions on one side and compromises on the other—there
might be circumstances wherein, for the public interests, it:was
necessary to adhere to the promises and the declarations
then made. Now, what were the circumstances under which
be brought forward the Emancipation Bill. History was now
asserting its rights, and it was hardly necessary for
him to preserve that delicacy which must be main-
taened by, a Minister of the Crown on recent
events. It was perfectly well known that in bringing that Bill
forward they had to contend with the scruples of the Sovereign.
It was brought forward in 18'29, and in the preceding year the
House of Lords, by a majority of 44, refused to entertain the
question of relief" at alt. He brought forward that measure,
and it was perfectly well un iersrool that before it passed the
constituent holy in Ireland should, if possible, be made inde-
pendent—that the 40s. freeholders should be abolielied, and a
101. franchise substituted. He had no doubt it was upon the
faith of that condition that the Bill received the assent of many
—it was upon that assurance that many gave it a re-
luctant assent. The Noble Secretary for the Colon'es
would not deny that, fir, only a few nights ago, he admitted
that that formed part of the coetract. Even the Noble Secre-
tary fe. Ireland acted upon a different impression from that
vrhieli actuated him now. Ile refused leave even to the Hon.
and Learned Member for Dublin to bring in a Bill for the altee
ration of the franchise ; he rested his refused upon the double
ground that the measure then proposed was a measure that
would subvert the settlement made by the passing of the Catho-
lic Relief Bill of 1829,
and that made by the Reform Bill in 1832.
Now he had said last year, and with perfect sincerity, that he
was for the fulfilment, in the spirit in which it was brought for-
ward, of the Reform Bill. He adhered to that declaration, and
he thought they were bound to say that the spirit in which it
was brought forward should be fulfilled on each side, and that
the conditions attached to it should be performed. So far
from wishing to restrict the bona fide !Franchise in Ireland
by any measure of registration, he confess he should .see with
great pain (he was sure his Noble Friend entertained the same
sentiments), any great diminution of the franchise in Ireland
inconsistent with the spirit either of the Relief or the Reform
Bill. He should suspend his judgment until he saw the evi-
dence. He should know the extent to which it prevailed—
first he should learn the fact ascertained, next the extent, and
next the causes that had led to it. He should see whether it
was attributable to the reluctance of the lands°• d to grant leases,
or whether it did not arise from the until ingness of the unfortu-
nate freeholder to be placed in such a position between his
landlord and his priest.—(Hear. ) He must know all these
things before he could form his prds;ment-as to whether the
remedy was'necessary ; and, above all, before he framed a judg-
ment of the nature of the remedy to be applied. Ho should
inquire whether the restriction of the franchise arose from the
unwillingness or refusal of the landlord to grant taxes, and if
that were to be the plan, there was no remedy whatever. The
new franchise in counties depended on the grant of leases,
and it might be defeated by the refusal of the landlord. How
could he decide upon so important a question, and advise a
remedy for the evil alleged to exist, when, for aught he
knew, that remedy might be perfectly insufficient ?—( Hear. )
He had said it was made a condition for the Relief Bill that
the 40s. freeholders should be abolished. Their object was to
establish, if possible, an independent cons' ituency in Ireland—
a constituency not independent merely of their landlords, but
their intention was to establish, if possible, a constituency
that should be free from the influence of the, priest as well
as the undue and unjust influence of the land'ord. —(Cheers.)
Had they abolished the 40s. freeholder on wanton and arbi-
trary grounds—was it a mere sacrifice to the caprice of any
party that required it? Why there was the most irrefragable
proof from the Roman Catholics themselves, that they were a
curse to Ireland.—(Renewed cheers.) The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman denied that he had given such evidence. Let
him look at pages 163, 165, and 167 of the Lords'
Report.—(Hear, hear.) It was upon the evidence of
Roman Catholics that they had abolished the 40s. freeholders
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, in his evidence, had made
a reservation in favour of fee-simple freeholders. It was quite
true he had, but he (Sir R. Peel) would like to know how
many bona fide fee-simple 40s. freeholders there were then ex-
isting? The Hon. and Learned Member's language was, " The
system of 40s. freeholders in Ireland was essentially different
from that in England. There were, however, some who had a
fee-simple estate, and these nobody would meddle with. As re-
garded those who had a derivative interest there was an immense
accumulation of perjury from the mu.tiplicity of oaths,
and they were part of the Lye stock of the estate."—(Cheers. )
He was asked, " Do you think you would avoid the evil of
paying by raising the franchise ?"—and his answer was,
" I do."—( Cheers.) "..A man who had the 10/. franchise
would be known among his neighbours ; he would have a
character to preserve." "Do you think the raising of the
qualification would be productive of great benefit to Ireland ?"
—" I think it would."--( Cheers.) '' In my humble judg-
ment, it would be no small benefit, if we got rid of any por-
tion of the perjury, and it is the commencement of what we want
much in Ireland, a substantial yeomanry."—(Loud cheers.)
Now, let the Hon. and Learned Member account for the evi-
dence and the denial.—(Renewed cheers.) Yes, it was the
evidence of the Hon. and Learned Member, and of the Hon.
and Learned Member for Tipperary—they were the men who
had sacrificed the 40s. freeholders.—( Loud cheers.) They
had given the evidence that had tended to convince the public
mind that, as it existed the franchise was a mockery of in-
dependence. One instance was given when a gentleman had
made 2,000 electors in his estate in Tipperary. The Hon. and
Learned Member now argued that, because parties w- re
poor, they were not the less entitled to the franchise, and that it
was an insult to Ireland to withhold the franchise from ',the poor.
That was the Gentleman who held that language in the year
1825, " There were heart-rending scenes following elections,
and after all political feelings, it was difficult to reconcile on: -
self to those miseries." H. (Mr. O'Connell) was asked the
following question :—" Did not that system give a direct pre-
mium to mismanagement ?" Answer, "It certainly did,land there
were- Complaints made even to -the clergy of wretches being
compelled to swear that they were forty shilling freeholders
when they could not conscientiously have given that oath." if
he (Sir R. Peel) supported in a liberal spirit, and not in the
mere letter, the constituency which it then was intended to
establish—if he asked the ten pound freehold to be
constituted as it teas by the Emancipation Act,
be was to be told that that was an insult to Ireland. Because
he would not add to the system which was proved in the year
1825 to have exhibited "heart rending scenes—to ruin the
freeholder who voted against his landlord—to expose wretches
to perjury, or swearing that they were forty shilling freeholders
when they really were not"—he was told that he insulted the
people of Ireland. Did he insult them when he sought to
establish that " respectable yeomanry" which had been men-
tioned. He (Sir R. Peel) wanted to show Hon. Members
tkat the sacrifice of the 40s. freeholders was not an arbitrary
act of theirs—that the abolition of that system was for the social
welfare of Ireland as shown from the evidence that they had
read, and that they should not now turned upon with a
motion f.r the re-establishment of the 40s. freeholders ; that it
should not now be said that they intended to injure and insult
Ireland, when they only desired to adhere to the compact which
had been made—when they wished to prevent that mockery of
independence which the 4Us. freeholders exhibited.—(Opposi-
tion cheers.) He would take the evidence of a Roman Catholic
priest, the Rev. Mr. Tighe ; and that clergyman was asked
what would be the effect ot making a 101. freehold as the basis
of the franchise ? He replied that he thought it would establish
an order of freeholders that, in his opinion, from their intelli-
gence, would go as moral agents to vote.—( Hear, hear,
hear.) The majority of that House—such was the
effusion into it—did not well remember the 40s. freehold
system. They who were some twenty years in Parliament
understood that system. He would give a detail of it to those
who did not understand the system. He took it from high
authority—from the evidence of county Members, who were
not prejudiced in favour of the Conservative interest, as was
made clear by Her Majesty's Government—the evidence which
he would quote was that of Mr. Dominick Browne, the then
Member for Mayo. Here then was a short detail of the 40s.
freehold system. That Gentleman said, " Suppose a farm of
100 acres was to be let out, it would be subdivided into 20 or
25 portions—it would be let at a greater rent than the
grazier could afford for it, and those persons who
occupied the land would register as 40s. freeholders out of
these separate holdings, for which they paid a rack rent. He
knew upwards of sixty persons on onelease who were joint
tenants, and paid a rent of 70/. a year, which he believed to be
a rack rent, and every one of them registered." Sixty persons
paying a rack rent of 701. a year, and each person registering
as a 40s. freeholder 1 The gentleman before quoted (Mr.
Browne) knew a place where sixty-six persons were Beim].
upon Bishop's land, which in Ireland did not create a freehold.'
The object of the landlord was to create a frcehoid for the men
living on the Bishop's land, and for that purpose he
let them a .barren mountain—part of his estate—at
121. a
.year in a joint tenantcy, and every one of 'these
sixty-six registered. He also knew of a good num- 1
ber of tenants who had taken leases in 1814, when land '
was exceedingly dear. These persons had been two years re-
gistered as 40s. freeholders by virtue of their leases ; they
received a reduction from their landlords of 50 per
cent. to enable them to vote ; but rill he thought the
landlord was entitled to enforce the whole rent. But
there were further details of the manner in which the

landlords secured the dependence of the voter. ' The landlord
attached to a small piece of land a 40s. freehold,
which freehold, by the operation of the control that he had
over the tenant, he secured to himself, and, in doing so
secured the dependence of the 40s. freeholder. Now, it was
upon such grounds as these—it was to prevent such abuses,
and not merely for the purpose of conciliating the Roman Ca-
tholics, but of doing that which would contribute to the
social improvement of Ireland, that they brought forward the
measure which was new so much complained of. Did the
Noble Lord opposite (Morpeth) consider whether the fran-
chise which he would now introduce would be liable to just
the same perversion to which the 40s, freehold system was?
Let them put aside, for a short time, all undue influence of
party, and inquire whether the franchise proposed may not
be perverted to the worst purposes, and to obstruct the
progress in Ireland of social improvement.—( Hear, hear,
hear.) The Noble Lord proposed that every landlord might
qualify a householder to vote, by giving him a lease
Now t was admitted there was great
nlreland; a great desire to command poli-
tical land or tenements to be rated at N. provided he had held it
the means of votes. The objection to
his Noble Friend's Bill was, that it would operate as a restric-
tion boast of the Noble Lord's Bill was,
o politicalv r
influencefo retxece
nyears.
e nti: i
through
;the franchise. Could he (Sir R. Peel)
conclusived proof that there was in Ireland a natu-
htthiaotn,teiat %
of
more
the
elf
would
aenxctheinse
natu-
ral tli.position by the use of land to increase political influence.
Now where would be the difficulty of procuring that influence
which the 40s. freeholds gave by means of the Noble Lord's Bill ?
By means of the Noble Lord's Bill any man who chose to divide
his estate might qualify a certain number of persons and secure
their dependence actually by the same means as secured the
dependence of the 40s. freeholders. There might be a house
and a vote attached to it more valuable than the House itself.
The lease need be of no value.—(Cheers.) Let Hon. Gen-
tlemen observe the influence operating upon the landlords ; the
double influence
frgeapionrt of and political power ; because it clearly
appeared
their own Commissioners that small
froin
the o
holdings let at much higher rents than large ones,andthat there
was greater competition for a small of quantity of land than far
a large quantity. There was evidence that the rent paid yet
in the county of Armagh, when it came to the test of value by
the rate, was rated at a quarter or one-fifth that being paid.
This, then, was a great inducement to divide property into
small holdings, the lendlord gaining a great increase;
but superadded to that., was another motive—that of political
influence. Now, who were the parties who acquired political
power by the old system of 40.. freeholders ?—The Right
Hon. Baronet then quoted the evidence of Mr. Justice Day, as
to the effect of the 40s. freehold suffrage, but no more of the
quotation reached us than that it was " a sort of uni-
versal suffrage.") Mr. Dominick Browne was asked if
it was not the custom for attorneys to buy small estates—
(Cheers)—and the answer was, " Yes, it is a very common
custom." Another was asked whether men did not gain con-
sideration and influence with the Grand Juries by making
40s. freeholders, and he said " Yes." Another . said it was
a recommendation- to the Magistrates to make them.
So they would see that under the 40s. freehold system there
was great temptation to abuse. Now, he wished to know if

were aggravated by the unfortunate differences which existed
in Ireland upon the subject. With whom the blame of that
difference rested he would not inquire ; but he was bound to
respect the motives of the Judicial Bench. It was perfectly
unjust, however, to object to the Bill of the Noble Lord be-
cause he had not suggested a satisfactory mode of defining the
franchise. It was not just to say, You shall not cure the ad-
mitted evils until Parliament can agree to a definition
of the franchise. Still more monstrous and unjust
was it to say, We will not allow you to cure the
imperfections of the Irish registration unles you consent
to subvert the Reform Act.—( Cheers.) The lion. Member
for the Queen's county had said yesterday that nothing could
be more disgusting and demoralizing than the present system
of Irish registration, and those evils were admitted, and yet
five years were suffered to elapse without the proposal of a re-
medy. The Member for Carlow had stated that night that
the most imperfect and absurd definition of the fi anchise
was that adopted in the boroughs. Last year, said the Hon.
Baronet, addressing the Ministerial benches, a motion was made
on your own side of the House, that there should be an instruc-
tion to the Committee before they proceeded with the Bill, to
define the franchise. Who opposed that? The Noble Lord
and lion Gentlemen opposite. They divided against that in-
struction, and thus decided upon this ground, that the matter
required serious comideration, that they had not sufficient evi-
dence, that they were not in a condition to define the franchise.
Now, he would ask, iu what better condition were they then ?
What had been the result of their subsequent deliberation?
By the Bill they made a complete revolution in the franchise.
It destroyed the freehold franchise altogether. It was not only
imperfect, but it abolished altogether the test of profit de-
rivable from the freehold. It would work a complete subver.•
sion of the franchise. It was a franchise wove than that of
scot and lot. It was more extensive than the household
suffrage, and, he would ask, was that consistent with the en-
gagements entered into at the time of the Catholic Relief Act ?
It was true that there was no written engagement entered into
at the time. If that Bill was passed without the slightest
negotiation with the Roman Catholic party,no compact precluded
them from agitating any question of redress which they
thought proper. But a compact was entered into' that
had all the force of a public engagement, although that com-
pact was not reduced to writing or embodied in Act of Par-
liament ; yet the Noble Secretary for the Colonies would not
deny that there were compacts made which bound public men,
and which Legislatures ought to respect if they hoped to gain
confidence in their decisions. Tie . declarations of Leeds
Althoryt aril Grey, When the Reform Bill was under discussion;
had already been quoted. He would therefore pass on to
what fell from the Hon. Secretary for the Colonies in 1837.

the proposed system was not liable to the same temptations? the House of Peers, had stated that by making these_..- the
. Would it be just if, for instance, in the case of the landowner grounds of concession—by giving the- fear of civil war as the
neglecting the general improvement of Ireland, he chose to ground of making the ground of concession—they did give
sacrifice his estate for the purpose of making votes ? great encouragement at all future times to men in Ireland to
Was it fair that political influence should be attached to such form combinations and associations dangerous to the country,
improper and corrupt use of land? —(Cheers.) It would be in order to obtain any ulterior objects they might have in view.
SO
at first. A Alan would make freeholds, who found by so That was the statement of the Noble Lord, who differed
doing he could exercise great power in the country. This from him entirely in politics, respecting the support which
measure had a tendency in an evil direction—namely, to the the then Government had given the agitators by conceding the
subdivision of the land, and to arrest the progress of improve- Catholic claims on those grounds. That had been said, not with
ment. He spoke not merely of the moral evil of it, of the respect to her Majesty's present Government, but with respect
unjust influence they were conferring upon attorneys and to the Tory Government, one of the chief members of
grand juries.—(Hear, hear.) 'He looked to the effect in which now taunted him, with giving encouragement to agita-
another direction. He asked whether they thought they tion and concession.—(Loud cheering.) He would, however,
were advancing the social improvement of Ireland, by giving do the Government of that • day the justice to say that what
a new stimulus to the subdivision of land ? He asked them to they didive at that time, they gave it frankly and candidly.—
read the Report of their own Commissioners before they de- (Cheers.) With respect to the measure for disfranchising the
termined upon the subdivision of the land. They had the Re- 40s. freeholder, to which the Right Hon. Baronet alluded, he
port of the Commissioners on the subject of the Poor-laws, (Lord J. Russell) had always felt the strongest repugnance to
who had advised them not the plan. The Government that measure, and he remembered that at that time the pre-
sent over Mr. Nicholls, and had such confidence in his judg- sent Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (Lord Ebrington) and him-
ment that they overruled the recommendation of the Commis- self came up to town together for the purpose of opposing
sioner, and determined to act on his recommendation. Now it.. But in proposing the change from the 40s. franchise to
What evidence did Mr. Nicholls give upon the subject? He the 101. the manner in which that measure was to be carried
begged the Noble Lord's attention to it. Could he deny the into effect. had been stated in the way most likely to conciliate
tendency of this measure to stimulate the subdivision the support of the friends of popular privileges.
of land for the purpose of increasing votes ? If The person who claimed it was to go before the Assistant
not, let 'him see what would be the results. Mr. Barrister, he was there to claim in reap et of the 101., and if
Nicholls said, " Small holdings and minute subdivision of the Assistant-Banister admitted him, he became, for eight
land prevailed in the county of Donegal to a greater extent years, possessed of the franchise, but he was rejected if the
than in any other part, and the consequent growth of the popu- I3atrister thought he had not made out his claim, but then
latiun was so great as to diminish the productive power of the there was an appeal, for the party might .go before soil, and the condition of the people to the lowest point in the a Jury as to facts, and before a. Judge as to the law.
social scale, exposing them in the contingency of a bad season, and if he succeeded, he remained eight ears. What was
or the failure of the potatoe crop., to the most dreadful priivation." proposed now? He begged the House to recollect that it was
No material or lasting improvement of the land could take proposed to take away that power, it was proposed to tax the
place while such a system of sub-division existed ; and there voter by continually harrassing him ;it was proposed, instead
was no check to the division, except the dread or the actual oc- of granting him the franchise for eight years, that he should
currence of famine. Under the present system the possession not have it for three months, and that he should be obliged to
of land was not the means of advancing, the individual, but of go to the registry every year. He was now answering the
degrading the whole population." Such were the words of charge of a breach of-faith—if there was any breach of faith, it
Mr. Nicholls.—(Hear, hear.) But with all those facts before was in the proposal of the Noble Lord.—( Cheers.) By modes
them, Ministers were superadding to the gain of the landlords of this kind they might most effectually destroy a franchise.
by the small division of land, the additional temptation of —( Cheers. ) The Attorney-General had told them some
political influence.—(Hear, hear.) He had attempted to time ago that with regard to the Court of Chancery, no man
show that this extension of the franchise—this creation of could go into that Court, unless the subject of dispute exceeded
something worse than the forty-shilling freeholders, was not 100/. Now he would suppose that a man had a claim for 101. ;
compatible with a fair interpretation of the compact if he was told that he must go into the Court of Chancery to
entered into upon the Emancipation of the Roman Catholics, obtain it, he would be deprived of his rghts, and that was what
and not compatible with the social improvement of Ireland.— was proposed by the Bill of the Noble Lord the Member for
( Hear, hear.) He would now ask, whether if this extension Lancashire. It was the bringing in of the Noble Lord's Bill
of the franchise were granted to Ireland they would refuse the that made it necessary for him to go into the whole
application of the same principle to England e—( Cheers.) Let case, and when he proposed to do that, as he
the Ministers suppose, that when the same demands were made • thought he was bound to do in faith to the
upon them in this country, the party opposed to the Govern- people of Ireland, he thought he was bound to give them as
ment had coalesced with the Chartists, and had said—" The good a franchise as was intended for them in IS29.—(Cheers. )
horizon is clouded, and you had better purchase peace by con- That was a proposal made to a people that were disturbed, and
cession."—(Cheers.) But they did not say so. Aided by he would not take it away from a people that were in tran-
them (the Conservatives) the Ministers had been able to resist quillity.—(Hear, hear. ): 'That was a
franchise granted to those
the • Chartists so long as they said that the Re- who agitated and threatened, and
lie would not take it away
form Bill was final. (Cheers.) When they from men wto were loyal and obedient.—( Cheers. ) He was
made such concessions in Ireland as this, upon such evidence, speaking now of the proposal that was made by the Noble Lord
and with such motives, would they be able to resist the demand on the other side of the House, and he affirmed that when the
that would be made for the extension of similar institutions to Noble Lord proposed that Bill the people of Ireland were in a
England ?—( Cheers.) If it were right that without any alle- state of tranquillity ; they were making progress in peace and
gation the franchise in the towns in Ireland should be reduced prosperity; their prosperity was
increasing, and the
from ten pounds to five, would they be able to say to those who whole cause which had created the tation was the
demanded a similar reduction in England, would they be introduction of that Bill.—(Loud cheers If, therefore,
able to say that Earl Grey and Lord Althorp had declared the that was a Bill to take away the franchise, and to destroy it, he
Reform Bill to be a final settlement, and that it was darige- must consider the whole question. The Government had en-
rous to disturb it. The Hon. Gentleman, the Member for deavoured last year to see if some Bill could not be introduced
Kilkenny, had been indiscreet enough to say that he was in to regulate the franchise, and for doing that they were told
Enfavour of the Bill because it would lead to an extension in they were defending fraud and perjury, and because they did
gland-- . not choose to enter upon the subject in the way the Noble
Mr. HUME—No, Sir, I did not, Lord proposed, they were told that they were promoting per-
Sir ROBERT PEEL—The Honourable Gentleman jury. Last night they were told they were defending fraud
'had said, however, that if the definition of the franchise was and perjury. With regard to all questions of this kind upon
necessary, why was it not settled in England ?—( Hear, which the present Government held different opinions from the
hear.) The Noble Lord, the Secretary fur the Colonies, other side of the House, it was expected, and it was found
said that in the present state of parties in England, it in many instances impossible to carry their views into
was impossible to define the franchise more exactly than effect, and that being the case it was thought better to wait
it stood expressed in the Reform Bill. Yet the Noble some time and proceed with other measures upon which party
Lord preceeded with a Bill to amend the registration violence would net be excited. There were questions of great
but his Noble Friend, the Member for North Lancashire, was interest regarding the administration of the laws, with respect
loaded with every species of calumny because he advanced a to the poor, the administration of justice, and the commercial
Registration Bill, without defining the franchise.—(Cheers.) interests of the country—all these questions might be discussed
The Noble Lord (John Russell) had placed the finality of the without party feeling, and the more exciting, party question it
Irish Reform Bill—and he did not speak of technical finality, was determined should be left to time. 'I he present Govern-
but of the principle—on the same ground as in the English and ment had been 'continually reproached with not bringing for-
Scotch Bills ; yet on such allegationews were made in support ward measures which they thought right for the extension of
of the Bill now before the House, the Noble Lord was pre- popular rights, and it was said that they were losing pared not only to disturb but to destroy the system established greund by such conduct. His answer to that was that it in Ireland by the Reform Bill. He hoped the Noble Lord would was thought better to proceed practically with mea-
be prepared to-night to make a declare ion of his intentions. sures that were of some service, and leave others
He, for one—not from any party considerations—but with ato time. In a party point of view, that was an inexpedient
view to the peace and tranquillity of those countries, knowing course, but, with a view to the interests of the country, be
the demands which would soon be made upon the Noble Lord thought it was a prudent course. But could they pursue it
when that precedent would have been established, he did regret longer ? Were they to be accused, day after day, and night
the course which the Noble Lord, as a Minister of the Crown, after night, of attempting to screen perjury and fraud, and not
had thought proper to persue.—( Loud . cheers from to declare what their opinions were, by introducing measures
the Opposition benches.) He had understood from the on the subject? They were then obliged to look
Noble Lord that he had meant steadily to adhere to the into the franchise, and to -endeavour to legislate upon it.
principles of the Reform Act—that on the minor de- He had been convinced by the statements made last year by
tails he might consent to improvement to remove restrictions the Hon. Member for Mallow, that they never could obtain a
and vexatious accompaniments on the claim to the franchise ; satisfactory criterion of the franchise, unless they sought for it
but he had understood from the Noble Lord that he taught that out of the averment and assertions of the parties themselves.
a constantly recurring agitation as to the principles of repro- It was evident if they took the more liberal and extended view,
sentation was fraught with perils and with evils to the country,
he did not of course mean to give any opinion as to the legal
—(Cheers.) He recollected that the Noble Lord had made view of this question, but if they took the more liberal and ex-
that declaration, and had reprinted it in the letter which he tended view, it was obvious that the man who could loose
addressed to the electors of Stroud. The Noble Lord might nothing by gaining a franchise, who was subject to no burthen,
have reason for holding a different opinion now. The and who had a very small amount of property, might
Noble Lord might have found it necessary for the ,et have witnessses who might assist him in putting
purpose of conciliating lukewarm supporters—( Hear, yet have witnessses who might assist him in putting
purpoe of conciliating lukewarm supporters_( Hear, is claim upon the register, and no other consequence follow
hear, hear)—and propping up a falling power to pursue from it than that if he succeeded he would be entitled to vote,
the course he had adopted; but if in the hope of gaining the and if he did not succeed he would not be entitled.—( Hear,
acsession of those who were unsatisfied with the declarations of hear.) The criterion which they proposed tn take, and which,
1837, and to demand from the Noble Lord, if not an. actual upon ten
from seemed to him the best, was some criterion to
performance, at least an indefinite promise, as to the progress be taken from the Poor-rate. Last year he had consulted
of Referm, the Noble Lord did not fteadily refuse to encou- a high authority upon this subject. That gentleman, Mr.
rage all change, he _Sir R. Peel) trusted he would resolve Nicholls, had told him at once that he thought it very desirable
on refusing it now. ut he was afraid the power of the Noble that the Poor-rate should be taken as a criterion, and he re-
Lord to refuse it would be weakened by the precedent ceived a letter from Inn dated 24th Aug ,in which he said that
he had established. ( Hear, hear, hear, and eheers.) upon reflection he had been stilrmore confirmed in that opinion.
In the year 1834, the Noble Lord was party to a declaration, lie was very strongly in favour of adopting the Poor-law
by which he discountenanced, in the most formal manner, any valuation as a critenon of the elective franchise. Well, then,
effort to obtain a repeal of the Legislative Union. In- the Lking that criterion, they proposed to take with it a certain
year !SU, the Noble Lord was a party to placing in the mouth tenure by lease—a tenure greater than that of the old 40s.
of his Sovereign, this emphatic consideration of the mischievous freeholds, because those freeholds had often depended uon
agitation of a repeal of the Union. The King said, in his speech to p
the lives of very old people. Th
sed ey
t proposed to takevalue a term of
Parliament, " I have seen, with feelings of deep regret and just
, fourteen years, and they proposed inditeation the- continuance of an attempt to excite the people of 5/. They took that rating of the value of 5/. because they ,
of Ireland to demand a • Repeal of the Legislative Union. To found from all the authorities that the general custom was to the practices which have been used to produce disaffection in undervalue. They found by the Reports submitted to the
the State, and mutual distrust and animosity.between the two House that many of the present freeholders who had then the
countries, are chiefly to be attributed the spirit of insuberdina- right of voting would be disfranchised by the measure
tion, which though for the present controlled by the powers of of his Noble Friend. There were several unions met tinned
the law, has been but too perceptible in many instances." That I in which persons who at present had the right ef voting with the
was the language addressed in the year 1e34 to the agitators present 101. franchise would be deprived of that right under the
for repeal. In the year 1837, at the period when the Noble proposed system. He thought it essential to have a tenure,
Lord addressed his letter to his constituents at Stroud, this and also to have a rate ; because when they had the tenure
was the language which he addressed to the eager advocates they kept the principle of the county franchise, and when they
for an extended franchise. He said—" That after this sates
they
the rating, notwithstanding all that had been stated on
ration, any Member of Lord Grey's Cabinet was to propose to that subject, they had a property liable to a burthen. The
begin the whole question anew, the obvious remarks would be, Noble Lord in the course of his speech at the commencement
you have either so egregiously deceived us, that we cannot trust of that discussion, had shown a great many things, and he
to your public engagements, or you have so blindly deceived had certainly shown a great many con(radictory things.—
yourselves that we cannot believe in the solidity of your as- (Cries of " Hear, hear.' ) At one time he showed that
surances." The Noble Lord said—" The excitement of new there would be a class of persons in the most miserable
changes, passions again rising, the House of Commons again state of wretchedness ; but at another time he showed
in a furnace to be melted in a new mould, and the people again that they would be possessed of four or five acres of land, very
in a temper which burst out in flames at Nottingham and good clothes, and also very good food.—( Hear, hear.) Of
Bristol, would go far to shake the stabi'ity of pro- course with respect to the amount of 5/., and with respect to
pertv, and make the law the servant of popular the duration of fourteen
.years, those were matters to be dis-
passions ; the happy consummation of the wishes of cussed and decided upon in Committee.—( Hear, hear.) The
the labouring classes would be again removed far off; question, then, to be considered was, whether in settling this
and the security to be enjoyed in Switzerland and in Ger-
matter of the future registration of Ireland, the franchise
many would remove capital from this country, and transport should be based upon the present definition, or upon some new
it there. The deluded might then be roused from their dream,
criterion.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) With regard to the
but too late." These were manly sentiments.—( Loud cheers.)
resent criterion, he certainly was a good deal surprised when
The very delivery of which, from a place of high authority,
present
heard the arguments of the Hon. and Learned Member for
gave streugth to the person from whose lips they proceeded. Exeter. 'lle proposition of that. Hon. Member was that they
The Noble Lord might have since found the new pressure upon
should keep a criterion which was in itself doubtful, and upon
him to be such that he could not maintain his adherence to
those manly declarations. The Noble Lord might hare re- which contrary opinions had been held by persons of very great
that eminence, some giving so lax an interpretation, persons
ceived significant hints at the commencement of this Session
entitled to the not at a
who, he must say, appeared to him to be ll
that the foreign policy of the Government did not. meet with
the cordial approbation of his supporters.—(Hear, hear.)
franchise had obtained it ; others giving so strict an interpre•
tation, that in one union, out of one hundred and thirty
The Noble Lord might have found it necessary to use less strong
claimants four only were allowed to vote.—(Hear, hear. )
language in denouncing the effort to promote a repeal by agi-
Why, this was an immense political question—( Hear, hear)
tation. He (sir R. P. ) regretted it—he deeply regretted it—
_and how did the Noble Lord the Member for North Lan-
found in the return from Sarre —he mht have found a stool for the interests of the country. The Noble Lord might have
cashire propose to solve it ? He did not propose to solve it at all,
indication that the confidence of y
this country was lost, and he
but he left it to the decision of the Judges. Why, that would
g em-
loss of confidence by renewing the alliance with those in that might have found it necessary to seek compensation for that be to leave the matter in doubt. " No, ' said the Hon. M
bet for Exeter, " you don't leave the matter in doubt, because
House who before appeared ready to withhold from him their you are aware there is a majority of Judges en one side, and a
support. He might purchase, by concession on that point, a minority on the other, and the minority ought to submit to the
oin ons the majori• T. " Wh hear a y o
temporary support ; but he (Sir R. Peel) could not help
establish of
the franchise ?--( Hearoever dof ,
hear.) Insuch way
the first t
thinking, when he called to mind the declarations of 1834 and
place, it was a very great evil that the Judges
1837, that it would abate something of the feeling of
satisfaction with which he contemplated his temporary should have to decide upon matters which were strictly
connected with politics; but it would be a much greater evil
triumph over the pressure of the hour—that he should abate
for the Judges to control the authority of that House.—( Hear,
something of the satisfaction with which he might reflect
on the small majority which he might call to his aid that hear.) It would also give rise to imputations upon the Judges
night.—( Hear, hear.) It would he thought cast a gloom over that then used their influence to obtain a majority for their
the festivity with which perhaps he might celebrate the new own party.--( Hear, hear.) He could not conceive any thing
more mischievous than that Judges should he forced to swerve
compact and alliance, if the reflection did cross him that lie
fro?' the course of duty their consciences dictated, because of
had gained that support by receding from the position which
reneetions thrown out against them in that House.—(Hear.)
enabled him to arrest the progress of democratic claims by ob-
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, as was to be expected
structing the progress of social improvement in Ireland, by
exciting hopes in that country, by raising passions and creat-
from him, spoke in very measured language, but what
were
ing expectations which the Noble Lord could not realise with-
the comments made upon his words by some of the public or-
cut peril, aed which he could not gratify without being the gaga of the party opposite. He had read some that day,
fomt ntor of convulsion. (The Right Hon. Baronet resumed wherein the Judges in the minority were called the " O'Con-
his sert amidst loud and long continued cheering.) sell Judges"—" Judicial minority against the law"—
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was ready to meet the objections, " that men were raised to the Bench in Ireland
the accusations, and the warnings of the Right Hon. Gentle- for no other distinction than that for years they had been
p man—( Loud cheers)--and in order to do so it would be neces-
Popish olitical partisans," &c. Now, was this the way in
sary for him to recal the attention of the Honse to the period which they were to leave the law? Was this the way in
which such men as Chief Baron and Baron Richards—men of
to which the Right Hon. Gentleman had alluded, to the year
high reputation and of great learning, were to be spoken of.—
Right 1829, to show the House the circumstances under which the,
were they to have their good name taken away, and Justice
Honourable Baronet formed the compact, which were
degraded in their persons, in order that they (the Opposition)
compact he admitted had been made, and to declare to the degraded
get a decision in their favour on the great politi-
For that purpose it would not be necessary for him to do, whaHouse his reasons for the fulfilment of it.—(Loud cheers.)
cal question of the franchise ?-_(Loud cheers.) If they
t
the Right Hon. Baronet had thought proper to do, to refer to chose to take away the franchise, Idt them take it if
communications which had passed between his Sovereign and they would or could, but do not let them use the balance of
himself; it would be only necessary for him to refer to public Justice for that purpose.—(Loud cheers.) These were the
and notorious facts, and to place himself on that ground.—
reasons why he thought it necessary in the present state of
(Hear, hear.) Engagements had then made to those who
those affairs, the Noble Lord opposite having persuaded a ma-
felt scruples, prejudices, and fears, which scruples, prejudices, lority of the House to read his Bill a second time in the last
session—these were the reasons why he thought it neeessafy,
and fears, he had, however, always considered to be unfounded.
that the whole question should be considered, and wheeb
.as to the admission of the Roman Catholics to power. It was
right to keep the engagements then entered into with them, thought the Bill of his Noble Friend was founded ifritoenTltTlY,
and justice.—(Loud cheers.) It would free
but, at the same time, the engagements entered into with the
people of Ireland ought not to be wantonly violated, which the difficulties of the franchise—amend the present state
the bench.
Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire had attempted the
law, and let it be administered without disparagingidt
b Hon. Baro-
iem
of the
to do. The circumstances were these :—for a long time the—(Cheers.) But then he was told by
net, that if it should be found to be the fact
ligthat the Catholic Question had been matter of debate ; men of the
tuent body was very much diminished—that if the landlords
consti-
highest talent had taken part in it in that House on both sides, deprive their tenants
t°
henit would be re-
but with regard to Ireland so strong had the conflict of opinien used their power in such a manner as
of their votes, then a time would comehewar.)
But
how Fong
become on the subject that at length in that country no such
ilearhad been had to the re-
thing as Government existed.—(Cheers.) The other day he
were they to wait ? Much reference per to consider the question.—(
had been reading a statement of what had passed in the House
of Lords at the time on the occasion of the appointment of a
returns vet, because they had not been
' -
laid on
turns for 1840. He held in lic heands certainly not official
Secretary for Ireland. One of the Ministers of the Crown
had stated that the appointment of the Chief Secretary for
correct; and if so, already .
a very large diminution had taken
the table ; but he believed they would be found
Ireland had been given away without his knowledge and with-
out consulting him on the subject. The person so appointed new 0,462.—( Cheers )
place. The returns for Tippet,at,rBsywf.asor
It'
vB-ad
tOe
rg.
_fa,:
de , t h
le , number6s; .
now
.of.
the constituency at 4,143.
31.
was the present Lord Glenelg, and it was obviotply now
keeping an appointment made for the purpose of 7C°8.41.‘, i1nVi1e8kr0;,5:27,33940; ; now
. 1,550. Longford, 1,971 ; now
it hadthese five diminution
up that balance of opinion in Ireland which ~ 949. Making altogether in counties a
These. results were got from statements
been their policy to keep up. The circumstances of
'B76thieo 91tutis.e which would soon be l upon
that time appeared most alarming. Any one who would . made in
from 15.
read
an Act of that time would see that there was a vast Association
the table, but besides that wasthefact that there was aidgrog
in existence enacting laws for its own government, baying a
,unwillingness among the landlordsliof Ireland to grant such
treasury of its own,- over which it possessed control, giving "di: leases to their tenants, aswou t enable them to obtain the
rections to its own executive, which directions were obeyed, franchise ;that was a. sufficient. cause for a great diminution.
d by vast all these facts thewere
holding large meetings, having processions, attended by
these Yet in the face of told that they might
. become
numbers, who marched, preceded by their banners. All . wait until the evil hail stilly greater, and then would
were circumstances calculated to excite the greatest alarm. be be the time to consider the question. They might wait
The statement of the Duke of Wellington in the debate on
°such a indeed until men were disgusteti with the proper exercise of
Catholic Question was, that their meetings existed inef
die
a.
political power. Hon. Gentlemen on the other side had been
manner, although they did not present any featuresthe
mi liAd shocked at hundreds of persons not having a qualification
lity, yet they were of so formidable a nature that they g
the g 71., yet obtaining the 10/. franchise. Now, he con-
s under which
to a civil war. Such was the circumstances tossed he was not so shocked as wasrefolded the other
(teethe rey,eal of the - pon
Government of the day had propose side. What he wanted to see was, the people come to the
Catholic disabilities. He had always thought
poll, and look to the legitimate exercise of their political power
was, most just
gument for the granting of thee.
measure
ee
that could be as a privilege and a right. If the Bill of the Noble Lordpassed,
as it was ' in itself, the most unfortunate
landlords might prevent their tenants from registering, but
adopted. He would on that subject repeat
the statement
would they give up politics ? No. It would drive them into
made by a Noble Lord at that time, whose statements were
Lord Man fi Id
always worthy of the greatest attention.s e ,in combhation.s.wit would teach them to expect that by means of