The Sun.
London, England, 1841-04-30 00:00:00

MORNING EDITION

—( Loud cheers.) It seemed to them most desirible that a
real stringent and efficient test should be applied to the
the oath of the party himself, value of property
other than oath of the party himself, or evidence upon oath ;
and, moreover they affirmed that the best and most
efficient test for the amount of the value was founded on
the principle of rating, which imposed a tax at the same
time that it affirmed a franchise.—( Hear, hear.) But the
Noble Lord had found it convenient to omit that which
was tee principle of the Bill from the details.--( Cheers.)
They were willing to take valuation for the purpose of
rating as the test of value in the property, but they
were not willing to take the value of the property,
apart from the charges and incumbrances on it, as
the amount of the qualification. —( Loud cheers.)
and that was the principle of the Noble Lord's Bill—
that value to a certain amount, tested by r,ting,
should be the standard, and they were disposed to
agree with him in that principle. But, in addi-
tion, that it should be a test not of the value
of the property, but of the qualification of voting.
They contended that although it was the best test of the
franchise yet it must be estimated over and above the
amount of the charges and incumbrances thereon.
The Noble Lord assumed that that was the point of dif-
ference between them. That was the point of difference
between them upon principle. That was the point which
was broadly and plainly stated to the House on Mon-
day night; that was the point on which the House of
Commons decided in favour of a beneficial interest against
the no beneficial interest contended for by the Noble Lord ;
and that was the point for which they again stood up in
opposition to her Majesty's Government. He stated,
moreover, and he would repeat it frankly, that in the
Poor-levy valuation he could place no confidence. The very
evidence the Noble Lord had produced coming forward in
succession as it did paper by paper, week after week, and
month after month, but before the House subsequent to
the Bill--( Opposition cheers) —that evidence had gone on
no fizei, or stable, or uniform principle. In one thing
only had it been uniform—in disregarding the provi-
sions of the Act of Parliament.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
But how far the Act had been disregarded
bow. much the valuators were below the rate—whether it
was 5 per cent., or 30, 40, or 50 per cent. beneath the
real value, could not be learned. That was the ac-
count which their own Commissioners bad given
them of their own evidence ; and yet it was
on that evidence that the Noble Lord asked the House
to form, not a prima facie case, but a conclusive
procf of the real and actual value of the premises, while
the Commissioners told them that it formed no conclusive
or proximate evidence, but that it varied in the proportions
of its deficiency and errors in every union and iu every dif-
ferent part of Ireland. He would say again that
in its present state he should decline, on the evidence they
had, now to assume it as the basin, even as the first ele-
ment to be laid down, viz., of the value of the property,
exclusive of the amount of the burthen charged on that
property. He did not mean to say that rating
might not be so correct, that it might not be made
so perfect, and ultimately approximate so nearly to the
real value, and become so uniform, that they would be
fairly entitled and enabled to assume it, not as
a test of the value of the property on
which the party claimed his vote. But in
the present state of things he could not take
it as any test, either of the franchise or the value.
One word as to the manner in which the Government had
dealt with the question. They ought to overlook the
mode in which this evidence had been furnished—
the sources from which it came and the means by which
it had been received. It had been usual, and it was a
right and a wise practice, that when Government fur-
nisned information on which Parliament was to act,
that information s:sould be furnished in one of
two ways, either by the command of the Crown, or in con-
sequence of an address, or a motion from one or the other
Houses of Parliament, and that it should come before them
with some fixed indication of its character, and of'
the manner in which it had been obtained.
In what manner had that information been received ?
Day after day papers were returned from the Queen's
stationer, and that was all the House knew of the evidence.
They were told that cer sin verbal instructions had been
given by her Majesty's Attorney-General to his personal
friends to go into the country and gather information,
upon which statements were made in the House without
any palpable authority, or any detailed account of
the data upon which they were founded. The Noble
Lord ( Morpeth) had not made the slightest approxi-
mation to a statement of the effects of the clause
before the Committee. He bad told them that, in some
places, it would strike off 10, in others 20, and in others
30. But he had not yet attempted to tell them, even by
approximation, the number of tenements which would qualify
by the proposed rate.—( Hear, hear ) He had chosen
forty-sine ui.ionn, which must be taken as a fair sample of
the whole number of unions in Ireland—that is, 135.
Now, then, admitting that towns would give a constitu-
ency of 450,805, whereas the constituency of 40s. free-
holders was no more than 196,000—( Loud cheering.)
He supposed that the Noble Lord would tell him that there
was a restriction in the leading clause. There was a re-
striction. Would the Noble Lord tell him when he made
a large increase, and when he made the deduction,
what would be the effect of that increase and
deduction. The Noble Lord had given them ostensibly
an enormous increase in the number of qualifying tene-
ments ; and he told them that the present evils were mainly
attributable to the unwillingness of the landlords to grant
leases. The sine qua non of the proposal of the Noble
Lord was that unwillingness, and it was in no degree
touched, for the cause which tended to disfranchise would
still operate as extensively 8b ever. He would not now
enter into the question of the importance of leases as
effecting the independence or otherwise of the voter. His
own opinion was that with regard to the ,small class of te-
nements the existence of a lease would augment the de-
pendence of the tenant. It would increase the absolute
power of the landlord if be chose to let the tenant run into
arrears, and therefore be believed that the small class of lease-
holders would be more in the power of the landlord than
the tenant-at-will. The question, however, had been fully
discussed before, and the merits of it were before the
House and the country. He objected to this clause because
he objected to the principle of the beneficial interest being
abandoned. He objected to the clause because their was
no certain evidence of the rate being a test of a sufficient
amount to the value of property. He objected to the clause
because her Majesty's Government could not give them the
least idea of what the practical effect of this measure would
be. Of that they gave the House proof by first proposing
a 5/. rating and then increasing it to nearly double that
amount. He objected to the clause because her Majesty's
Ministers had introduced that Bill with a haste and rash-
ness and want of consideration which he thought was most
censurable. He would therefore conclude by stating that
he would give the most direct negative to the clause.
Mr. C. WOOD said, as he had beon referred to by the
Noble Lord, he trusted the House would permit him to
trespass upon its attention for a few minutes. His Noble
Friend had represented the measure which he ( Mr. C.
Wood) had proposed, as a measure of entensive disfran-
chisement. He begged to remind the House of the state-
ment he bad before made on this subject—viz., that, as far
as he could gather from six or seven unions, it would leave
about one-third of the present constituency. One of the
last papers which had been laid before the House, con-
tained the population of thirty-one unions, not including
towns which sent Members to Parliament. It contained,
also, the number of tenements rated at 201. and upwards.
The population of those thirty-one unions was as near as
possible one-fifth of the population of Ireland—viz.,
I,6oo,ooo—the number of tenements rated at 201. and up-
wards was 36,000; multiplying that number by five, the
total number of tenements rated at 201. and upwards was
180,000. This would give the number of those, who
were returned as having a beneficial interest, 135,000.
It must be satisfactory to the House to know
that, if these accounts were to be relied upon,
the number of county constituents in Ireland, would, tak-
ing the sum at 201., be considerably more than doubled.
Now, be would simply state his objections to the clause.
It contaired the restriction rendering a lease necessary,
which, in his opinion, rendered it impossible to provide,
and still more impossible to retain, an adequate number of
independent voters in Ireland. He (Mr. C. Wood) bed
stated that opinion long ago to the Noble Lord (Lord
Morpeth), and that opinion had been confirmed by every
subsequent Report that had been laid on the table of the
House. It was with a view of removing that restriction
that his Noble Friend's amendment was intended ; and,
holding that opinion, and being anxious to remove
those restrictions, it would be extremely inconsis-
tent in him (Mr. Charles Wood) not-
to resist
e clause by which the restriction was continued. He was
aware that it was possible the rejection of the clause
might lead to the abandoment of the Bill, but he could
not avoid thinking, that under existing circumstances,
such a result was not to be deprecated. It was a clause
'hich, without the consent of Hon. Gentlemen opposite,
could not be passed into a law, and be believed nothing
was so pernicious as the angry discussion of Irish ques-
tions, which led to no practical result.—(Hear. bear.)
For the same reason, ho hoped the Noble Lord ( Stanley)
would withdraw his Bill.—(" Oh, oh.") It proposed to
deal only with registration, while the evil was not in that,
but in the state of the franchise, and consequently any
Bill affecting the one only, could not remove the evil com-
plained of in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He entertained a
sanguine hope that the Ministers, having time to consider
the matter, might, on a future opportunity, introduce a
measure retaining as much as possible the present fran-
chise, and introducing another based upon leasehold and
rating qualification, by which means opposition might be
conciliated, and by which they might give to Ireland an
adequate and independent body of electors.
Mr. HUME rose amidst loud cries of " Oh, oh," and
"Divide." He said an appeal had been made to him
by the Hon. Member, and he felt bound to answer it.
He had hoped to see the Right Hon. Baronet the Mem-
ber for Tamworth, rise with indignation to repel the in_
sinuation that no good measure towards Ireland could
'pass without his sanction and approbation.—( Cheers and
laughter.) He was glad that the Rig ht Hon. Baronet
bad acknowledged by his cheering that
such was the fact,
for it was most important that it should go forth to the
world that the Right Hen. Baronet and his friends were
'the strong opponents and the great impediments to e'
useful legislation. In what position did the Right
'a
f
Baronet stand last night when he votedforthaen -lea„h-oolci
and the 81. qualification, and then, without e
wordt of
explanation, he, and all behind him, were about
against both. Let it be understood by the country vote
the Right Hon. Baronet and his friends stood in they thatwy of every improvement.—(Laughter and cries of " Divide"
divide.") Parliament had ne right to put the franchise of one man into the bands of another.—(Loud cries of" Di.
wide, divide.") He should vete for the clause, on the
ground that it was at all events giving the people some-
thing, however small.._( Laughter.) He bad lived long enough in this world.—( Laue ht . He had yesterday
charged Ministers with altering ther 111, but he was now
~ tufted with the Noble Lord's explanation, that they had
04( S 1 A non so for the sake of carrying some portion of good, and
..s, r .-; tirely agreed with the Noble Lord.—(Great laughter
- . 'and -sheen.) As he had blamed the Noble Lord he
s
.
‘s, i.hought it was only right to say that he was satisfied.—
.1,:../.1 -.'s. (stn 'wed laughter and cheers.) This ought to teach
~,10 theN ble Lord that he should not yield to the opposition
wlt" was banded together to deprive Ireland of justice....
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