The Sun.
London, England, 1841-05-29 00:00:00

raised to please the cracked-skull county of- York.—
(Laughter.) For his.own part, whenever he should be called
upon to appear before that con •itituency he should not fear
to meet them, or dread their displeasure, on account of
the part he had taken on the subject of *slavery.—
(Hear, hear.) While, however, he gave what he con-
sidered a just meed of praise to the Right lion. Baro-
net's speech, yet-he could not carry further his commen-
dation with respect to the resolution with which he con-
cluded; not that he (Lord M.) thought that the resolu-
tion could be charged with any thing approaching to
intemperance or passion, but he thought that its prin-
cipal defects were a want of logical soundness, and that
it would be wholly inefficacious for the objects it had in
view. In fact, it seemed to him (Lord M.) to be thrown
out as' a sort of squib to amuse the great crowd of fol-
lowers of the Right Hon Baronet from more mis-
chievous and dangerous pastimes.—(Great laughter.)
It seemed to be conceived very much ,in the spirit
of oompromise between two opposite currents of opinions
and purposes, and it might have been devised by the art
of which the Right Hon. Baronet was so great a master,
rather more as an emollient than a sedative, in order
to let down the blood from fever heat. The question
seemed to have been taken up in
.two points of view,
first, that in which it had been presented by the Right
. lion. Baronet—that which related to the spirit of the
Constitution ; and next, in that which was its real and
practical point of view. The Right Hon. Baronet said
that the conduct of the Government, in retaining office,
after so many Parliamentary defeats, was against the
spirit of the Constitution. Now he (Lord M.)
tnought that on that point the Right Hon. Baronet had
but qualified success.—(Hear, hear.) He denied that
the conduct of the Government was against the
spirit of the Constitution.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He put
out of view the defeats they had sustained previous to
the late defeat on the Sugar Duties—(Hear, hear)—
they might have been right or wrong in considering
them not sufficient notices to quit, or a conclusive indi-
cation that they had lost the confidence of the House—
(Laughter)—but what was the fact? Why, in the last
Session by a majority of 21, the House had declared that
the present Ministry possessed the confidence of Par-
liament, after a long debate. They might have been
wrong in retaining their seats after the number of de-
feats they had sustained ; but, on the other hand, was
'the Right Hon. Baronet right' in. going on with the Go-
vernment after he had sustained an equal number of de-
feats ? There was this difference, however, in the de-
feats of the Government and the Right Hon. Baronet,
that the latter had been unbroken by a single success,
and it was to be 'remembered, too, that those defeats were
concentrated within a period of three months.—(Hear.)
His!' object, in alluding to these bygone matters was
'wither to attack the Right lion. Baronet, nor defend
themselves.—(Laughter.) They had been reminded that
upon a former occasion they had said' they did not
command the confidence of the House when they had a
najority of five. Undoubtedly they had set that prece-
lent,—but Hon. Gentlemen opposite must at the same
time remember that their own most distinguished leader
said he saw no reason for the resignation of Ministers,—
s that, although they had set the precedent, they had not
by so doing incurred the censure of the most distinguished
leader of toe Conservative party. lie admitted that the
'ate division on the sugar duties did so far alter the state
if things as to make itself felt by every one that
natters could not be allowed to continue as they were,—
that, in the language of the resolution, the Government
lid nut possess sufficient of the confidence of the House
enable them to pass their measures into laws.—
,Cheers.) On that point, he was glad to say, they
.vere quite agreed.—(Laughter.) No controversy could
arise on that point. The question might then arise—
" Why do you not resign?"—(Cheers.) The resolution
seemed to censure them for keeping office, for even one
hour after that division. But it had been shown that
the case was not without a precedent—enough had been
.aid about the case of Mr. Pitt, in 1784—he would only
say that if the cases were not altogether analogous, they
were so in this, that they (the Government) ware op-
posed by a coalition between those who, during their
whole previous life,- had been most opposed to each
other.—(Loud cheers.) It was said that they would act
at variance to the spirit of the Constitution in dissolving
a Parliament which had been summoned by themselves.
But that was not the view of the Constitution which he
took. The Parliament, although summoned by the
grown upon the advice of the Ministry, still, consti-
tutionally, the Parliament must be taken to be chosen
V the people themselves.—(Hear. hear.) In a consti-
tutional point of view, it ought not to be fatal
to the confidence placed in a Ministry that they remained
in office after a hostile vote—or if it was to be so under
one set of circumstances it must be so under another.
lie would for a moment allude to the dissolution of
the Parliament by the Right Hon. Baronet in 1834
that was certainly a Parliament called into existence by
its
predecessors in office, but he (Lord M.) did not
see that the Right Hon. Baronet had any grounds for
resorting to that extreme expedient, unless they con-
tended that it was more important to test whether the
country would have the Right Hon. Baronet for Prime
Minister, or have a free commerce, with cheaper corn,
cheaper sugar and timber in lieu of higher duties.—
;Cheers.) After the Sugar Duties division it was made
manifest that it was impossible that the Government could
go on with the present Parliament, that with it they could
not complete any important measure; but he could not
for a moment allow that it was at all at variance with the
spirit of the Constitution, it was not, in his opinion, at
variance with the true meaning of the principle of the
Constitution, that the Government should ascertain what
the sense of the people was with regard to the measures
which they deemed of importance enough to take that
step upon. It would not be contended by any one op-
posite, that under any conceivable condition of affairs,
the Ministers of the Crown, though defeated in Parlia-
ment, were not entitled, in the spirit of the Constitution
to go on with the business of the Government so as to enable
the Crown to appeal from the Parliament to the people.
—(Cheers) He did not think it could be said that any
Ministry which had brought forward such important
measures, thinking as they did that they would receive
the warm support of the people, ought- to be debarred
from taking the sense of the country upon them.
It was his lot to represent the largest constituent body in
the empire, and within the last few days he had laid
upon the table petitions signed by thtmsands, tens of
thousands, and he believed he might carry it to hun-
dreds of thousands, from every branch of employment
and every pursuit of industry, but chiefly connected with
the woollen trade, which was the oldest staple trade of
the country.—(Hear, hear.) He was far from wishing
to impart exaggerated views of the existing distress—lie
did not wish to paint it in overglowing colours, or to
seek to create agitation on the subject. The Right Hon.
Baronet had given the same grave admonition upon the
subject of agitation, and when they were thus
admonished • he turned from the lecture to the
lecturer.—(Hear, hear.) He could not forget the great
questions of Catholic Emancipation and Parliamentary
Reform ; and when he looked at the result of these two
great national movements, •he could not help thinking
that those who, to a certain extent, sympathised in the
present propositions of the Government, should put
themselves at the head of the popular agitation on the
subject, and guide and master it, rather than permit it
to exceed the limits of fair discussion.—(Cheers.) But
to return to the petitions and to the representations he
had received from quarters in which he could place the
utmost reliance, these statements all went to show that
business was hardly ever known to be in a state
of such depression. Many employers were stationary
—mills and manufactories were closed up, and a great
portion of them were working half time, while vast
numbers of hands were thrown out of work; and bad as
that state of things were, there was no satisfactory glimpse
of improvement for the future.—(Hear, hear.) Under
these circumstances, Ministers brought forward proposi-
tions which, whether expedient or not, were calculated
in their view greatly to remedy the existing evils. Par-
liament rejected, or showed unequivocal and unmistak-
able signs of rejecting these propositions. Now, he
would ask was there anything at variance with the spirit of the
Constitution, if Ministers, who thought they had right on their
sides, who knew they were called on by a large portion of the
people to stand by these measures—(Cheers)—and there was
reason to believe that to a great extent, they would support
these measures—was there anything at 'variance with the
spirit of the Constitution, that Ministers being defeated in Par-
liament, should put their propositions upon an issue to the
people, in a regular and authorised way.—( Hear, hear.) It
was true that the Right Hon. Baronet after his defeat in 18.35,
resigned office, being in perfect possession of the confidence
of the Crown, without resorting to a dissolution ; but he had
d one so a short time before, and that dissolution
had been taken upon the precise issue of whether
the House would entrust the government of the
country to the Right Hon. Baronet and his friends—( Hear,
hear)—and when Parliament had assembled and decided
against his retention of office, his Noble Friend admitted that
he had acted in the spirit of the Constitution, when he aevr-
taMed that he was in a minority. And thus, after having ap
pealed
ward, to
andthfien
dpemoga l e
themselvesupon t e
om
aeyitatsm;tiuoniirfoe:t
ohseorfeneittrhrfiyeeeiniyi
onow
eb r
no uoe,rh t
pfour:
theamnodsseetlnymetsbe
c al, inasr
eme
seo,nnttlb,yec
they should
would
fldt othg
eettybhbeener
bleieaxbspal rebe
j toses
el
idcr
ieonaget holt
b.
in
a minority, they hesitated for a moment to resign the
Government.—( Loud cheers.) The Noble Lord the
Member for
of
oteing to dissolve Liverpoolndsaid thatdlyothat they_had shown
no
after
sustaining
asdtanin s
an
fnsa decisive defeat they appeared in their places, and
n
announcement, as if they were prepared to goon with
ii rig g
the Parliamentary business already brought orward. But it
must be notorious to every one that thestate of the supplies did
not warrant an instantaneous dissolution, and if they had come
down and stated that they were about to punish Parliament fir
its vote by an immediate dissolution, he could imagine the
outcry that would be raised against them, and it might be said
'with some show of justice, that they acted at variance with
the spirit of the Constitution.--( Cheers. ) He thought that
to any fair and candid mind the announcement of ,the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer that he meant to move the ordinary
sugar duties, and theannouncement of his Noble Friend thathe
meant to postpone the Poor-laws and other public measures,
sufficiently indicated the course they meant to pursue
(Hear, hear.) Great stress had been laid upon the intimation
they had given,
_ that they meant to take a discussion upon the
Corn-laws. Upon that subject, he would only remark, that
, after the great weight, and the vast preponderance of interests '
which on both sides of the House, and in all parts of the coun-
try, was attached to the subject—when he knew that it was
looked upon as forming the main and essential ingredient in then
scheme they had brought forward, he did not think it was
reasonable to expect that before Parliament closed,an andu
before they returned to their constituencies, at. least
discussion on the subject, and fur making manifest
op-
portunity would be given to them of enteringintotbaerregnupiat.r
nitiaeonreu3ptsonoaf
empire.
the mattereeu country, r tyh,eamndostnfmtobrneemntnosetsiimmmpoerdttaanteeebetaorttnhge
he must say that
While on the subject of the dissolution,
upon the state of parties and the prospect of the
to them
the Member for Shields had given a strong. inducement
a
even independently of other considerations, his Hon. Friend
the , great probability
bth t the majority
of toof.
trbeesomititentorei tt,unrnamedelwy
right in this anti
violence.—( Hear, hear.)
'mild not be indfluheeneweads
riy,„ party
)Freedom from pa
rty
heats --(Cheers.
changed for the worse cipation, and he did not thii;ekhotphee present House could be
heats
which could be most justly pro-
nouncedwould no address himself
for a
was
upon not the encomium
ne w
moment to the practical effect of the resolution of the bight
Hon. Baronet. Whatever vote the House might come to paßs
upon such a resoluiion,
submitting himself with deference to
'its high decision, he should wait with anxiety, but

MORNIN G

`lr .

s thheohboapredoefilt,huhealiolmonpeisos,iotnt c(oLnofiormd acthioeenrsi. wourulhdatreweeasivethaet
immediate cause of the dispute that had lately arisen in the
House ? The Noble Lord had reproached them with the time
of bringing forward these meamres; but what were the circum-
stances under which they had done so ? There was a e icier-
able deficiency in the public revenue of the country. Aa the
the deficiency did exist, it must be dealt with ; then the course •
which Ministers had taken was, instead of proposing tempo-
rary assistance by a loan—instead of, as they did in the first
instance last year, endeavouring to impose fresh burdens on the' struggling industry of the country, they proposed to recruit the
public coffers by relaxing the restrictions on the suffering poor,
and by increasing the necessaries and comforts of life for the
people, whom he hoped the House would not consider as being
animated with mere animal wants. To increase the command
of the people over the necessaries of life—that was their
scheme—that was their defined and previously-avowect object.
What, he would ask, was theirs (the opposition) ? They (the
Conservatives) had not thrown any further light, in the course
of the present debate than in the last one, on what they thought
it necessary to do. When the Right Hon. Baronet seemed to
treat the House with thegreatest frankness, he only left them more
in the dark than ever. Amongst the industrioas classes the
greatest distress prevailed, and such a state of things must he
met by those who proposed to rule the destieies of the coun-
try. What was the sum and substance of what the opposite
party stated ?—That they would not in the course of next year
consent to the introduction of foreign sugar; that they would
not touch on the timber duties until they were 'become better
acquainted with the despatches of the Governor-General
of Canada—(" Hear, hear," from the Opposition. )
that they would adhere to the sliding scale of
of duties labitur et labetur in omne rolubilis ceentn.—( Loud
cheers.) The present was the first time when they heard of
any great party attempting to seize the reins of power, not by
the avowal of any fixed priniples. or any defined measures or
ascertained purpose, but by resting on the persevering du-
plicity of their leaders.—(Cheers.) What was, the actual
source of dispute and conflict between the two partite' and the
courses of policy which were now making an appeal to the de-
cision of Parliament and the public. There was no part of
the general policy of the present Government, as it appeared
by the state of things in this country, of which, if a chal-
lenge had been thrown ,down, he (Lord Murpeth) would
have shrunk from the fullest inquiry before the people
of this country. With respect to the dependencies of the em-
pire he could triumphantly refer to the results of the manage-
ment of the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies. fie
could point to the islands and •continents of the southern
seas, teeming full with the seeds of future civilisation and
order. He felt equally proud when he turned to the depart-
ment of his Noble Friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs,
to whom in the course of this debate well-Merited testimony
was borne, as one who had Caused the flag of England
to float triumphantly on coasts where it had not
been planted before— ( Hear, hear, and cheers) —be
would point to the peace of Europe, which, though menaced
to the utmost, yet remained untouched. With respect to the
internal, government of Great Britain testimony had been
lately borne to the cessation of all insurrectionary movements.
With respect to Ireland, that was a topic on which he would
not enlarge, because it was natural that he should feel a
stronger temptation to do so than on any other subject. Com-
plete internal tranquillity—cessation from all tumult and dis-
order, and all the blessings of temperance prevailed in that
country. Power might pass away from their (the Ministers)
hands.—(Hear, hear.) If it did, he wished from his heart that
it might prosper in theirs (the Conservatives), and.
let the boast be theirs (the Ministers), that they had
led to more brilliant views, and more extended advan-
tages. With those feelings, he hoped that .those who had
hitherto supported and sustained their dim ts, would give to
the censure contained in the resolution of the Right. Hon. Ba-
ronet, their decided negative.—(Cheers.)
Sir J. GRAHAM said that the Noble Lord-who had just sat
down said that power might pass from their hands. Their
(the Conservatives) allegation was, that it had long since
passed from their hands. The Noble Lord was kind enough
to wish that power might prosper in their hands. He (Sir J.
Graham) thought that if some of that self-gratulation with
which the Noble Lord concluded his speech, did not prevent
his being just and generous, it would lead him to
believe that the country thought that power might
be entrusted in their (the Conservatives) hands.—(Hear.)
He knew not what was the meaning of the tone.of triumph on
the subject of the foreign policy of this country. What was
that note of triumph, for instance, as regarded China.—
(Hear, hear, hear.) He had yet to learn that our successes in
that quarter had been signal. It was unfortunate that they
knew little in detail with regard to any portion of the foreign
policy of the Government. With respect to China, they tad
still to learn the brilliant success which had crowned the efforts
of this country. Did the Ministry pride themselves on the
taking of Chusan amidst scenes memorable ;or their connection
with the opium trade? Or on the withdrawal of our naval forces?
or on the subsequent negociations, while the British Plenipot en •
tiary was for years left without instructions, and who at last,
acting on his instructions, had been recalled and disavowed by the
Government ?—( Opposition cheers.) In a word until he saw
the debt due by the Government to the East India Company
for that expedition paid off—until he knew that the
,000,000/.
surrendered to the Chinese Government had been restored--
until he knew that the assurance held out by the Noble Lord
the Secretary for Foreign Affairs as to the objeds.of that expe-
dition had been realised--until indemnity for the past and
security for the future had been gained by some new expedi-
tion, he would retain his former opinion, and he would venture
to express his belief that the war with China was a great
calamity. —( Hear.) He believed it was the opinion of Napoleon
that a war with China would be one of the most detrimental
events to the greatness of England, and to the security of her
Indian empire ; and he ( Sir J. Graham) would, therefore,
still maintain that the war with China was one insehich success
would be attended with no glory, and in which 'a failure would
be the heaviest misfortune that had ever befallen this country.
—(Opposition cheers.) lie would now apply himself more
immediately to the subject-matter under consideration. The
Noble Lord
.(Lord Morpeth), at the commencement of his
speech, said that he should put out of view all the defeats of
the Government before the introduction of the present
budget. A very convenient course for the Noble Lord ! but
one which, in Justice to the motion of his (Sir J. Graham's)
Right Hon. Friend, it was impossible for him to pursue,—
(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman the Secre-
tary-at-War, in arguing the question last night,
had justly observed that the motion embraced two
propositions ; the first of which was the statement of a fact,
and the second the inference to be drawn from tliat'fact. The
Right Hon. Gentleman, in arguing the question, found it
convenient to invert the natural order of 'the argument, by
dealing first with the latter proposition; _mot he expressed
his astonishment that his (Sir James Graham's Right
Honourable Friend should have advanced, in this in-
stance, a principle of general application. So far, however,
was that from being the principle of the motion, that it was
entirely drawn from a statement of a case si ccial in itself, and
which case was strictly defined and limited by the fact alleged
in the major proposition. That fact was not a single isolated
defeat, which rendered it the duty of the Government. to resign,
but the allegation was that her Majesty's present advisers did
not sufficiently possess the confidence of the House to enable
them to carry, not one or two, but a succession of measures,
which they deemed indispensable for the welfare of the State.
—( Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman in arguing the case
from analogy took a single instance of defeat in a long train of
administration by Mr. Pitt, and referred to the example of
Lord Liverpool, who had been defeated on the property tax. Bnt
those were the defeats of Administrations which in general pos. ,
seared the confidence of both Houses of Parlianthit, and which had
succeeded in carrying the measures which they believed to be
conducive to the public good. He entreated them to contrast
these cases with the state of affairs with which they were then
dealing. What he alleged was, that her Majesty's present ad-
visers had, in their own Parliament, from the commencement
up to the present hour, experienced a series of defeats or com-
promises, arising out of conscious weakness, and adopted against
their own judgment, or altered in defiance of their former opi-
nions, not in consequence of any ostensible reason, except the
pressure of the party opposed to them in Parliament. Really
if he looked back to the measures which the Govern-
ment had carried in the present Parliament, he could not
mention a single one which had been passed without .e
concurrence of their political opponents.—(Hear, hear.),
The Right Hon. Gentleman the President of the Board •f •
Control enumerated certain measures on which he plumed'
himself as proofs of the administrative powers of the Ministry.
He would begin with the English Municipal But that
measure had been introduced by Lord Grey's Government,
and it was a measure to which'his Noble Friend (l.ord Stanley)
and himself were parties, and he was not aware that it had re-
ceived any opposition from those Hon. Gentlemen with whore
they now acted. Upon the second reading the Right lion.
Baronet the Member for Tamworth supported its principle.
The next measure was the English Tithe Commutation
Act. But what was the origin of that Bill? During
the time the Right Honourable Baronet the Member- for
Tamworth was at the head of affairs, he had introduced •
an English Tithe Commutation Bill, and that Bill was
the ground-work of the measure subsequently passed by the
present Government.—( Hear, and criee of " No, no.") He
contended that it was the stock upon which the measure of
the Government was grafted ; although they were not identical
in their details, as the Bill of his Right Hon. Friend did not
sanction the compulsory process. 'I he next measure which he
wou'd refer to was the Irish Tithe Bill; but the-real author of
that Bill was his Noble Friend the Member for North Lancashire.
The Bill was first introduced, he believed,
by his Right Hon.
Friend the Member for Launceston (Sir H. Hardinge) when
Secretary for Ireland. A memorable dispute arose with respect
flu that measure. Hec Majesty's present Ministers, then in op-
position, passed in the Committee of that. Bill the celebrated
appropriation clause. Now, really the Government could net
take credit to itself for the Bill in its present shape, fur that
ww-a
ass
notnot tthhaetßoifllnfonriewhhLicohrtdhtinsehaist:
should
remain unchanged on account of the pledge to which asa man
of honour he was bound, and to which his publie
had indauleled the
MelbourneeY e o
n t eml
ed
declared Their tera present
nature, no doubt, and of a public character,
did happen that
pledged.—(Cheers.) Subsequent considerations, of faith
patriotic
Noble Lord to relinquish that pledge. IS
I in the same state in
which it had been the subject, was Ons'ec
of his Right
which it had been introduced by the Government
measures for which
the Irish Tithe Bill, notwithstanding But
the contentions of
Hon. Friend.—( Hear, hear.)
Rural Polig.e and
were the
credit was taken by the Ministry f
0 these he would only say
the County Constabulary Bills.
uence, and modelled upon the
that they were but the cons
Police 13111 introduced
example, of the Metropolitan Friend.—( Hear, hear.) He
by his Right Honourable Friend.—( The next
Reform, which was
next' came to the '
Hear, hear.") The Hon.
him ; and he was not surprised
Member for Bridport, e
measure was a concession made by
at that, as he believed the
more, 1 e believed
in its weakness; nay,that
the Government
who knew the matter well, had
all their own.—(Loud
the Postmaster-General,
warned the Ministry that they
were tak in afa a t 1
prudence of the Postmaster-General was.
greater than that of Ministers; anti t
gstep. He
believed that the prm
that he had foreseen that
the fase of the
Covernment was involved in that concession ;
and as it bad led in some measure to the present. financial
embarrassments of the country, he felt that the prediction
had been fulfilled, and he wished them joy of the measure.
The next measure was the Irish Municipal Bill. That was the
only measure which her Majesty's Ministers had carried with-
out the full concurrence of their opponents, and even that was
riot passed without so large a concession, that it was stated to
have been deprived of its chief benefit. He could not conceive
a greater proof of the weakness, imbecility, and paralysed
nature of a Government, than that by compulsion from their
opponents they would introduce that which was contrary to
their own judgment, and which they regarded as destroying its
efficiency ; yet in this measure the political franchise was a fran-
chi-e dictated by opponents of the Government.—( Hear. )
There was the English Chancery Bill, upon that he would not
dwell further than to say, that itoriginatod in a Commission
which was appointed on the motion of his Right Honourable
Friend, while he was in power. He would now turn from
the measures which her Majesty's Government hail passed,
to those which they had brought forward and ebandoned. There
was no question which, when the Government of Lord Mel-
bourne was formed, excited a greater degree of attention than
the question of Church-rates. In the year 1834, just before
he (Sir James Graham) quitted the Government of Lord
Grey, Lord Althorp, on the part of that Government, intro-
duced a measure upon that subject. Ile never exactly under-
s'ood why that measure was abandoned; but,' having been
abandoned, with great pomp and circumstance Lord Mel-
bourne's Government brought forward a measure to settle this
wassand
inqan
introducedmrtbt calculations. It Wally Lord Monteagle with
a disputed
greatpqa
ruaeds oon l
of
. fi
gut,
es
seut to a Committee up stairs ; the calculations were blown
into air, th,• plan was abortive, and from that day to this tic
attempt had been made to settle the question of Church-Tatra.