The Sun.
London, England, 1823-03-07 00:00:00

Eund Baring replied they had:)—Theis accounts were
simple and unlike, those of England, for every one conld,under-
stand them. lie would therefine support the ammendment.
Mr. JOHN ,SMITH differed much from his Hoe. Friend
(Mr. Home). He thought we could not have raised our sup.
plies during the war without a Sinking Fund ; end he was glad
to find the Government disposed to maintain it. He thought:
however, that the best security of our credit was to be found in
economy and retrenchment. Ills MajcstY's Ministers had, last
Session, stated their intentions with regard to economy, and
added, that they could do nothing thrift ; but, on being pressed
by the liOuse to measures of retrenchment. it was found they
had not clone their utmost. With this object;Y Mid without
wishing to disturb the plan of the Sinking Fund, 4e should
support the Amendment.
51r. MONCK, supported the mothin. The price of the.
funds was not necessarily supported by the. Sinking Fund in
time of peace. He contended 'that the country ought to pro-
ceed in a manner similar to that of America, in order to remove
its debts. .
Mr. RICARDO expressed his hopes that England would
never imitate the conduct of America in the mode of paying its
debt. if the Sinking Fund was really an effective one, it ought to
be supported ! but how was it effective ? Was borrowing a proper
means to establish a Sinking Fund? lie had been reproached by
the Hon. Member for Taunton as if he thought that during a ge-
neral plan for robbing, one ought to rob by way of fC'prhial. That
was not what he meant; but that when he found he should be
attacked, he thought that he might as well have the pleasure of
spending his money himself first. As to the sinking fund con-
templated by Ministers, it was little more than a bubble. There
was to be a surplus of three millions, and two millions saved by
the annuities scheme. The annuities Bill, if Ministers would
act according to good policy, would be repealed. That scheme
was to establish a sinking fund for II; years,_ by creating a
debt to be defrayed during forty-five years. Would it not be
not only more economical, but more prudent, to apply, the an-
nuities, as they would regularly fall into the Exchequer, to the
sinking fund ? The Hon. Member for Taunton had stated
his reasoning relative to the national debt on a former night to
be that of a man who had not studied mankind. He confess-
ed that he was alarmed at the greatness of that debt ; and
that he thought that some means of adjustment ought to be
devised. Ile was himself willing to make great sacrifices to
establish a proper adjustment. He thought that a compro..
mise could be effected between the stook and the landholders,
anti that Parliament, or another Par.!eitient, for he slid not
think the present state of the Representation would warrant
any hopes of a proper regulation could be enabled to. effect
it. The 11 onourable and IsearnedMember for Win chelsea bad
said that that measure would throw the country into the hands
of pettifogging attornies : he did not think so ; for Parliament
could regulate the measure:, and give as good a title as the at-
tornies could procure. A different Parliament, and one which
would sympathise with the feelings of the people, would be
necessary to carry his plan into execution. The lion. Member
for Taunton had contended that the Sinking Fund would be
useful in case of a war. 'What was that but the creation of a
fund to enable Ministers to make use of it at any emergency ?
If there was no debt, according to that reasoning a fund ought
tube established as a premium to Ministers' to go to war. As
to the effect of the Sinking Fund on the price of Stocks, it was
trivial to 'say that two millions of a Sinking Fund could operate
to any useful extent on a debt of 800 millions. It would be
much more useful to the country to apply the surplus to the
exigencies of the people.
Mr. BARING was willing to acknowledge the sentences of
his lion. Friend's mind, but it was acute in drawing singular
conclusions froth the theoretical principles. Was it not u sins
gular proposition, to maintain that it would,he useful to the na-
tion if Parliament would grant a title to half the estates of the
kingdom to the stockholders ?The title might be good ; but would
not each Gentleman in the House admit that die country would
rather bear the utmost pressure of taxation, than submit to such
a measure? What was the present Sinking Fund ? It in reality
consisted of the surplus revenue of the country and that sur-
plus was applied to the purchase of a portion of the Debt.
'itrious Gentlemen in that House had maintained that it
ought to be applied to the removal of taxation. Those Gen-
denten who spoke Of the effect of the Sinking Fund ought to
regard it, not as the bone of contention between any two parties
in the kingdom, but as the result of the views of persons in:.

terested in the welfare of the finances of a great nation. The
present finance system of Great Britain required that, in the
alternative of peace and war, there should he some immediate
stay for the support of the country in case of a war, and as such
he looked upon the Sinking Fund—as such it would prove
in the latter alternative. While the eduntry would require that
time should he given to provide for the exigencies of war, that
fund would be immediately applicable to its use. If the real
principle of the Sinking Fund were adhered to, the consequence
would be an extinction of the debt. The value 'of Funds dur-
ing the war, was an index to slim the pitch to which taxation
might be raised. Ile did not see how any person of common
understanding could concur with the Honourable Nlember
for Aberdeen, who had entered into such long calculations to
prove that the esuddishment of a real Sinking Fund would in-
crease the Debt. Such un argument was about as absurd, as if
any one were to assert that the House was in darkness, be-
cause the candles were burning ; and he would not lose time
in seriously answering it. To what exfent the Sinking Fund
had been carried, was another question ; and he believed that
they, were all agreed in the opinion, that an unwise mode had
been adopted in conducting the old Sinking Fund. His Hon.
Friend haul awaked what effect a Sinking Fund of five millions
could produce against a debt of 800 millions ? But that was
not the proper manner of putting the question. The proper
mode of judging of the effect of five millions, was to com-
pare it to the 30 Millions, which was the interest of the Debt,
and not the 800,000,000/. which composed the Debt itself.—
The operation of a Sinking Fund, established on true prin-
ciples, would in forty-five years extinguiah its debt. He
felt so convinced that the House was pursuing the right course
that he Should give his support to the present measures. If any
ground had been assigned why the bringing up of the Report
Should be postponed, he did not know why it should be pressed;
but when he believed that the proposal was made merely in the
hope that before that period the Muse would see some reason
for a further reduction of taxes, lie felt it his duty to resist it.
The fact was that there would never be an end to the cry of re-
auction as long as any tax remained. They were not now de-
bating in Norwich Market, where the voice of only one party
was heard, but they were in an assembly where all interests
would be considered and justice done. to all.—(hear !)
Mn WA RRE thought that no inconvenience would be
caused by postponing the bringing Up, the Report ; and as he
wished not now to tie his hands so that be could not propose
the repeal of any one tax at a later'period of the Session; he
should vote Mr the motien'of the Member for 'Wareham.
Mr. CA LCRA Tr said, that as his Majesty's' Ministers,
after all the arguinents which had been urged in the course of
this debate, had not thought proper to say a single word, he
(Mr. C.) did not feel it necessary to make a single observation
in reply.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose amidst
loud cries of question ! and withdraw ! As soon as silence was
obtained, the Right Honourable Gentleman said that he rose
Merely for the purpose of swing to the Honourable Mover why
he had not addressed the House. The truth was, that lie did
not feel himself suflicieritty well. There was another and per-
haps a more justifiable ground for his Silence. ,lie had already
in his exposition of the financial situation of the country, stated
the grounds upon which the Resolutions were founded, anti as
belied heard nothing new in the arguments which had been
used to4iight, lie thought that he might, Without disrespect to
the Hon. Mover of the House, abstain from taking any part
in the discussion.

Mr. CALCHA FT said, that if the Right Hon. Odaleman
was prevented by indisposition from addressing the House,
there were otber Gentlemen on the Ministerial Benches who
might havo stated their objections to his proposition.
The question being loudly called for, the House proceeded
to divide s•—• •

yz

For the Amendment
Against it

- -

Majority - - 36
The Report was then brought up, and the Resolutions read
ati4 agrted to. The House adjourned at a quarter before Eleven.
. „

In the Parish House, of Industry at Grimsby
there is a Tread-mill which works with the
weight of only four met►, and grinds sufficient
corn for the use of all the inmates of the house,
amounting to nearly one hundred. With the
labour of two more persons the mill will gri►►d
bones i►► proportion, for manure; it also works
a saw ►n a circular manner to cut bone into such
forms ►4s may be required, and at the same
time turns a grindstone to sharpen edge tools,
This curious and useful machine was erected by
Mr. Wm. Shirlock, jun. son to the Governor of
the house, for the purpose of curing all " sham
sick," idle, and disorderly inmates, and it has
already in several instances produced a wonderful
reform.

Yesterday, at Bow-street, a miserable looking
fellow, who refused to give his name, was com-
mitted in default of finding bail, charged with
" Palmer's Principles of Nature."