The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-25 00:00:00

MORNING _EDITION.

tions, and that great subdivision of land had been the oc-
casion of almost all the evils of Ireland. That system had
now been almost entirely abolished ; they had, at the cost
of great suffering to the people, almost completed the
state of transition to a better order of things, and now
they were to be thrown back upon all the evils cf the for-
mer system. Thu Act constituting the 405. freeholders
had been passed by the Irish Parliament in
1793 • and he would read from the second Re-
port Of the Railway Commissioners an extract, showing
the effect which that law had produced. That Report was
signe Iby the late Mr. Drummond. He need not stop to
eulogi,e that gentleman now fir the excellent and efficient
manner in which he discharged his duty as a Railway
Commissioner. He differed from him on many points,
more partictl illy as to the policy which he had pursued.
in conjunction with Lord Mulgrave ; but he could not
withhold from him his meed of approbation for the con-
scientious discharge of what he believed to be his duty.
--(Cheers.) That Report stated that the populatien of
Ireland, in 1791, amounted to 4,206,612; in 1821, to
6,801,527 ; in 1931, to 7,767,201 ; and, in 1338, at the
date of the Report, to eight millions and a half. 'This
increase e f popul ition had been entirely owing to the
subdivision of lands occasioned by the Act of 1793, and
the dreadfully distressed state of the unfortunate agricul-
tural
population was most feelingly depicted. The
landlords dreaded a return to that system, and it wae not
only on political grounds that they were opposed to the
mea elite of the Govern!' eat, but as having a tendency to
reproduce the subdis i lion of laid. The Railroad Com-
missioner had said it was necessary for the public good
that the paupar tenantry should be changed into indepen-
dent lebuurere That change had been taking place
during the list ten years, but the measure of the Noble Lord
wool I the ow them alt back into their former destitute condi-
tion. He would carne: fly call upon those Members who had
the welfare of Ireland at heart to pause and seriously consider
whether they were prepared to cut up by the roof all the
good which had been gradually done since 1829. Were they
prepared to throw all again into utter confusion by ag, eeing
to pass the Bill of the Government? In his opinion there
were many reaaons to ju, tify a much smaller constituency
in Ireland-than in a wealthy country like England. What
fell from the Hen. and Learned Member for Dublin in.
1837 ? Upon a discussion on the Poor-law Bill, he said
that in 1336 the destitution in Ireland far exceeded all the
calculations of the Commissioners. There were 585,000
heads of families in a state of desti•ut ion during the greater
portion of 1336. He computed them to be at the head of
three millions of population, two-thirds of them destitute
during the best part of the )ear, and one-third during the
whole year. Now surely they were not going to give the
franchise to the pauper population. Three millions then
bad to be de luctel from the eight millions when they com-
pared the number of electors to the population. The
Government had, in his opini in, totally failed in
showit.g any necessity for such a violent change
in the franchise. But suppose for a moment that
they had ma le out a case, where had they shown any
basil upon which to rest it. The information they had
givers to the House clearly shelved that the rating upon
which it was proposed to rest the franchise was made
directly at variance with the ensetmetes of the Poor-law
Act. They proposed also to extend the 91. franchise to
boroughs, yet they had not presented one single report of
any inquiry into any city or town. Now, why was that?
They could only draw inferences. He would state what , '
came to his knowledge respecting Cork. He had a re-
turn of the valuations of that city. In the lowest parts of
Cork, in Dublin-street, he had the return of twenty-four
houses rated at 51., fur the purposes of local taxation to
the Poor-rate; three of them were valued at 71., five at
Si., eight at 9/., seven at 10/., and one at 111. odd.
The result proved that in the various classes of houses of
which he had obtained returns, the valuation for local pur-
poses exceeded that under the Poor-taw valuation by from
10 to 150 per cent Now, there was another point to
which he wished to call the alt •ntion of the Noble Lord.
He had rece ved a letter from Mr. Philip Reeve, a gentle-
man form. r.y at the bar, but who was now living on his
property in the county of Clare, and who was intimately
acquainted with the circumstance; of the country, and be
statel it to be hi; deliberate conviction, that if the present
measure was carried, it would confer the franchise upon
20,000 voters in that country alone.--( Hear, he Ir. ) He
submitted to the House that it was an exceedingly impo-
litic thing to increase the constituency to the extent which
the NoLle Lord's (Lord Morpeth's) Bill proposed to give.
It would be a totally unmanageable business if the rest of
Ireland would have a constituancy in the same proportion
as it appeared the county Clare would have under this
Bill. If tire county Clare were to have 20,000 voters,
how many would the county Cork have? Why, taking
its great extent and population into consideration, it would
have no fewer than 100,000 voters. The great objection
against such an enormous increase was, that it would aug-
ment an influence nhich was too powerful for Ireland—
too powesful fur the interest of the country—he meant the
influence of the Catholic clergy in that country. It never
was intended to invest the Catholic clergy as a body with
election influence. To be sure they had a right to vote as
well as other individuals; but their influence as a body at
elections was, he contended, too great ; it was dangerous,
and such was the opinion of the Duke of Wellington ex-
pressed at the time of the abolition of the 40s. freaholders.
The 40s. freeholders were abolished, because they were
not that intelligent, independent class of men,
who ought to possess the franchise; and now it
was proposed to give the privilege of the franchise
to a similar class of men; for he insisted that the persons
registered under a Si. qual fication were virtually of the
satire class as the 40s. freeholders. Now what would be
the consequences of giving the franchise to such men, who
were completely under the influence of their landlords on
the one side, and of the priests on the other? The Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Cavan, in the excellent speech
which he made last night, and which met the approbation
of all parties, said he would net give even to the clergy of
the Established Church the same power that was possessed
by the Catholic priests in Ireland, who ha (Mr. Jackson)
would say did not give the same pledges of security to the
Stato as the Protestant clergy. The priests were single
men—( Laughter)—and had no stake in the community ;
not so the Protestant clergy ; they were like other mem-
bers of society. He thought that as individuals the Catho-
lic clergy ought to possess some right, but as a body
they ought nut to have the power which he re-
gretted to say was in their hands.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
'lle actual majority possessed by the Government now,
was but eleven or twelve, and it was not the representa-
tices of England who kept that Government in office,
but some thirty-four Members returned by Irish constitu-
encies. The people of Ireland, in fact, at the present
moment controlled] the people of England.—( Hear,
hear.) He objected to this Bill, because it disturbed the j
settlement of 1629. There was a growing feeling in the
country to disturb that settlement, and he regretted it, and
called upon the House not to furnish arguments for doing
so. He objected also to the argument made use of, that
it was necessary to grant this measure, because it was dan-
gerous to excite discontents in Ireland, which might lead
to the severance of the two countries. This argument
was too much like that employed elsewhere by the Hon.
and Learned Member for Dublin, and he (Mr. Sergeant
Jackson) was astonished to hear such an argument from
the lips of the Right Hon. Secretary at War. He thought
it a dangerous argument, and one which should not be em-
ployed in that House by any person, and still less by one
of her Majesty's Ministers.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. SLAN EY, in rising to support the second reading,
expressed his regret that the moderation with which the
discussion had been carried on by many gentlemen on both
sides was not observed by all who spoke.—( Cheers.)
He thought the Hon. Member fir Caran on the opposite
(the Tory-) side, and the Hon. Member for Drogheda
near him, deserved the thanks of the House f)r the man-
ner in which they had treated the question. —( Hear,
hear.) All were agreed that a most vexatious and mis-
ehievous uncertainty existed as to the interpretation of the
qualification clause in the existing law; and as no plan
for removing the ambiguity seemed possible to be proposed
except that upon which this Bill was devised, why should
they refuse to go into Committee, prepared to make mu-
tual concessions, and to settle the amount of the qualifi-
cation upon conditions satisfactory to all ? He thought the
51. franchise was too low.--( Hear, hear.) But her
Majesty's Ministers affirmed that the rating at el. was a
o test of 101. value, and he was willing to hear in Com-
mittee the grounds on which that assertion was made.
He did not think that the statements made by the Noble
Lord the Secretary for Ireland were sufficient to bear out
all the details of the measure. But the principle had been
fully made out, and for that alone he was prepared to vote.
It was cf the highest i importance to Ireland, and to the
empire, that this question should be settled, and it never
could he settled in a ileac table and effective manner with-
out mutual concessions, which could be made in Commit-
tee He believed that there were prudential considera-
tions at present which pressed for the settlement of this
que-tiots.—(hear.) He, therefore, appealed to Hon.
Gentlemen opposite to go into the Committee with a de-
termination to 'yield something of their own views, so as
to procure, by a sacrifice of feelings upon both sides, a
permanent adjustment of the irritating and most injurious
disputes which the present state of the electoral law in
Ireland kept up in the House and in Ireland.
Mr. THESIGER felt that the speech cf his Hon.
Friend the Member for Shropshire had left the House
in some difficulty. In the beginning his Hon. Friend said
that his object was to suggest a middle course, and he con-
cluded by saying that no middle course could be taken,
but that the principle of the Bill must be acceded to. Now
the principle of the Bill was what they on that (the Tory)
side of %he House decidedly objected to. From the speech
of the ltloh!e Nord opposite (Lord Nlorpeth) it was evi-
dent that the 5/. franchise was really the principle, for the
Noble Lord intimated that if that part of the Bill were
lost, be would abandon the whole measure. —( Hear, bear.)
His Hon. and Learned Friend, the Member for Exeter,
touched last night upon an objection which appeared to
him (Mr. Thesiger) of very great and conclusive im-
portance. Ho stated that this measure, with regard to
the alteration of the franchisee affected the settlement of
the great question on which that most salutary and heal-
ing measure, the Roman Catholic Relief Bill, was
founded, and violated the pledge given at the time with
iospect to the franchise. Hon. Members were aware.
that at the time that Bill was introduced there existed in
Ireland a -10,,. freehold constituency, composed of per-
sons likely to be, to a very considerable extent, influenced
in the exercise of the elective franchise; and that, at the
time it was proposed to introduce that Bill, apprehen.
sions were entertained that very great danger might re-
sult from the measure, if that constituency were left un-
touched, and that very great temptations might be held
out to fraud in the multiplication of voters. It had there-
fore been determined that that measure should not be car-
ried, unless it were accompanied by the extinction of the
40s. freeholders in counties ; and many Hon. Members
were induced to give their reluctant support, he believed,
to the measure for the relief of the Roman Ca-
tholics in Ireland, in consequence of its being ac.
companiod by the enactment for the extinction
of the 40s. freeholders, and of its creating, at the same
time, a constituency which it was considered might be
above all undue and improper influence. Although the
Nr; l's ei 4 , \IBA! for the annihilation of the 40s. freeholders passed
Fthe House before the Roman :Catholic Relief Bill, yet
"rr. H7._ ;---e. the two Bills received the Royal Assent at the same time,
,e,41e,7`"-Jesj. ' .":. in April, 18,39, and they wero undoubtedly considered
ia: part of the same measure. The IN. freehold con.
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