The Sun.
London, England, 1823-02-19 00:00:00

PARLIAMENT.

DOUSE OF LORDS, FED. 143.
PRIVATE BILLS.
The House met at four o'clock, and on the motion of the
:Earl of SUAFTESOURRY, it was ordered no Petitions or Pri.
-v4te Bills be received after the 24th of March; and-no,Judge's
Iteport after. the 22d of April.—Adjouraed.

:queAtion, -and -would best! suit the convenience of 01'1

Members.
After.a few words from Sir E. 101ATCHBULL, the goes.:
tion was fixed' for the l7th of. April, to which day the call of
the House was alio postponetL -
RIGHTS OF BOROUGH ELECTORS•
Lord JOHN RUSSELL postponed his motion for a Com-
mittee upon this subject until Thursday next.
IRISII TITHES.
Mr. GOULBURN gave notioe,.that on the ilth of March be
should bring foiward $ proposition for the commutation of tithes
in Ireland.

'MILITIA OF IRELAND.
•Mr. GOULBURN moved for leave to bring in a •Bill to
reduce the Staff of the Irish militia. The House would be
aware that the Irish Militia Act differed so far from that which
regulated the same force in England, that it kept in pay a
much larger proportion of officers 'and non-commissioned Offi-
cers, after the troops were in fact disembodied. It had appear.
ed to the Irish Government, in their search after the uteans of
economy, that the expellee of the Militia Staff of Ireland might
be considerably lessened, and yet the effectiveness of the force
itself be in no way diminished. Hon. Gentlemen would re.
collect, that in the year 1817 a Bill had-been brought in to
limit the extent of the establishrnent in question, not by re-
moving existing officers, but by preventing re.appointments
as they fell oft The measure which he now proposed, instead
of a gradual reduction, would give an immediate one. Mr.
Goulburn concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill for
the more speedy reduction of the Irish militia staff, serjeants,
corporals, and drummers, in corps not in actual service.
Colonel SKEFFINGTON spoke in so, low a tone of voice
that his obserVations did not reach the gallery. His feeling
was unfavourable (we believe) to Mr. (oulburn's measure;
and he hoped that the Bill would not be read a second time
until Certain documents (we could not collect their nature)

were laid before the llouse.
Mr. HUME wished to know what would be the amount of
the proposed reduction, and also what was the difference in the
condition of the English and Irish militia ; for lie aew their pay
WAR the same. lie was satistied.that the reduction might just
as well have taken place when he himself had moved it, in
the year 1019 ; but he hoped that , the measure now brought
forward was a prelude to the same course with respect to the

English Mina,.
Mr. GC/MAW RN' was perfectly -ready to defer the second
reading of this Bill until the papers called for by Colonel Skef-
tington were upon the table of the House. In answer to, the
question from the Hon. Meinber-opposito (Mr. Hume), he beg-
ged to say that the saving would be about 30,0001. The esti-
mate of the last year had been 139,000/.
Colonel BAGWELL declared that the reduction proposed
could not be carried into execution without a direct breach of
faith ; and stated that it would plunge a large body of men,
with wives and families, into a condition of deep and untie-

served distress.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that as his Right Hon. Friend
(Mr. Goulburn) consented to postpone the Bin until the re-
quired documents were before the House, he would not have
risen on the' present occasion if it had not been said by the
Right Hon. Gentleman that the proposed reduction was a breath
of faith;, faith ought to be observed towards every individual,
and more particularly t9wards a military body. There was no
breach of faithin thepeoposed measure, and he saw no din.
culty in etrectibg the reduction. If there was violation of faith
in it, the same was already- done in England. The breach of
faith imputed to his Right Honourable Friend, was his pro-
posal to repeal an Act of Parliament. The Act of 1802 gaye
a certein proportion of corporals, sergeants, • and drummers
to each regiment ; but Was it to be supposed that utter
a peace that Act could not be repealed. The Act respect-
ing Ireland was made in 10014, and it was impossible to
maintain that Parliement had not at right to repeal or utter
both Acts, and make a reduction suitable to the circumstances
of the times lie was sorry to have said so much on the tub,
ect, as it was again to be before the House; but held in his
hand a circular addressed to the Colonels of reghneres in Ire-
land in 1817. That circular, !Ottr referringeo a communication
before addresssed to the same pereons, had these words :—"
have it in command from his Excellency the Lord Lieutenant
to inform you, that it is not at present intended to make the
proposed reduction," &c. The words Y.' at present" dis-
tinctly implied an intention of a reduction at a future period.
As to the polity of the proposed measure, he would offer
no opinion until the pavers that were called for were laid
on the table. All he at present maintained was, that the
reduction proposed by the Irish Government was no breach
of faith.
Lord PALMERSTON, in answer to a question front an
lionuerahle Member opposite (Mr. Hume), as to whether
the present motion wee to be a prelude to a similar course •
in the English militia, begged to say that the same reduction
now romised in Ireland had ' taken place in England in the
year 1019.
After a few words from Colonel SKUPIWGTOS, leave was
given to bring in the Bill.
BANK AFFAIRS.
,151 r. °RESPELL called:the attention of the House to the
Taal ts :rOadc by the Bank on the balances left in their hands,
and of the loss which the public in.ronsequence sustained,—
For a great many years these had been enormous, as the ba-
lances, had amotueed to no less than from 11 .to 12,000,0001.
The profit annually thence accruing to the Bank, and the loss
to the public, had amounted to between 5 and 600,0001., while
the services rendered bptim Bank.were neither more nor less
than ordinary banking transactions. It had been stated to him
by practical men, with whom he had conversed on this subject,
that those services would hare been amply anti liberally re-
warded by an allowance of 10,0001. per annum. When he
called the attention of the House to this subject in 1815, the
balance had amounted to the sum which he had tentioned..,
They had since been reduced to between 3 and 4,0(40,0001. Ie
the last year their amount had been 3.900,0001. But he would
ask why so large a auto as even 4,000,0001. should be left in the
hands of the Bank unproductive to the country, when, in his
opinion, nothing Would be' more easy than to adn'tit the public
to a participation in the benefit. If the present Chancellor of
the Excheqeer would concede to him what he had never been
able to gain from the late Chancellor of the Exchequer,, a Com-
mittee to enquire. into the subject, he pledged himself to prove
the services of the Bank were Insignificant compared with
their reward, and he also pledged himself to produce a plan
by which, with the Bunk, or independent of the Bank, the
public might be admitted to participate in the profits arising
from the balances in question. That were the services of the
Bank ? They might 13e described to be comprehended in the
manageinent of the debt, the payment of the dividends, and
the Making of the daily transfers. On this, as in every other
occasion, he was ready to bear testimony to the masterly and
exeellene manner in which these services were performed, but
what he had to complain of Was, that they Were considerably
overpaid. Ile moved, that there should be laid- before the
House an account of the
,balance of cash in the hands of the
Bank of Englan&
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not wish
to provoke a discussion on this occasion, and as he had no ob-
jection to give the papers which had been called for, he hoped
it would not be thought disreipectful towards the lion. Gentle-
man or towards the House, if he declined entering into the
subjects touched upon in the course of his speech. - He was
much obliged to the lion. Gentleman for the information which
he had endeavoured to afibrd him, as he stood in need of all
that he could obtain from every quarter. lie hoped it would
not be undeestood, that by abstaining from reply, he acqtri.
esced in that had fallen from the Hon. Gentlemen, or gave
any pledge for his :flame conduct. When the papers should
be on the table, he would be prepared to, give his opinion on
any plan which the lion. Gentleman might be:pleased to bring
forward.
Mr; BA RING said, in every Session his Honourable Friend
brought forward this subject, and though his statements were
regularly refitted, he constantly returned to the attack. lie.
did not sae that tiny great griMACC retained to be complained
of, ,since the balances in the hands- of the Bank had been re-
duced from between 1.1 and 12,000,0001. to between 3 and
4,000,00 W. for which the Public received some compensation,
I,Vhee the Bank Charter was about to be renewed, the Public
balances likely to remain In their hands were estimated by Mr.
Pitt at from 4 to f,,000,0001. Ilk Honourable, Friend corn.
plained, though they were reduced to between three and
4,000,0001. ; and though he must admit that something was
due to the Bank, and that balances to the amount which he
had mentioned were contemplated when the Company paid for
the renewal of their Charter. Ntrhen the time arrived for re.
newieg the Bank, (hater, he would agree that it ought then
to be considered. what.advantagosniight:be secured to the Pub.
but at present he saw no cause for complaint.
Mr. MANNING would offer no oppesithin whatever to the
motion, and derived considerable satisfaction from the moderate
tometakeri by the lion. Gentleman on this occasion e Sofar Was
he from objecting to the motion, that he gave the Hon. Mem-
ber his best thanks.for having brought it forward. With re-
gard to the mantigement of the debt, he would remind the lion.
Gentleman that:there were annual returns made to the House,
which afforded every information. The lion. Member con-
cluded his observations, scarcely any of which reached the gal-
lery; by saying, that he should take another opportunity, upon
it more fit occasion; of showing to the House, what he was con-
fident he could ehow, that there was not the smallest shadow of
ground for the charges that had been made against the.conduCt
of the Bank. '
Mr. RICARDO said, that be should take the liberty of re-
commending to the Right lion. the Chancellor of the Lx.
chequer, if during hie administration he should have any (ran-sections With the Bank of England,.uf be-particularly careful
nit to let them over-reach,him.„—{A laugh 4-1 le was persuad-
ed, that if the charter of the Bank, instead of the existing nee-
nopoly, were opened to public 'competition, an immense deed

more won-Übe given for it than at present. It was 'impossible
to see the vast advantages which the Dank -had derived, with-
out being persuaded that the bargains they made were greatly
in their favour, and such as he hoped would never again be
made by any other Minister. •
-Mr. ORENFELIe Wished to make- a few remarks upon.
what had fallen from his lion. Friend near hint (Mr. Baring).
-His Hon. Friend, it was true, was no longer connected synth.
the Bank of England. But it should be recollected that at
the time when he exposed the abuses ofehat establishment, his
Mee Friend -was a Direetore When, - -therefore, his lion.
Friend came forward on all occasions as the champion of the
Bank, he was not to be considered as a disinterested supporter
of their conduct. It was not at :all strange to see him always
ready to defend measures to which be had been himself a party;
and which measures he(Mr. Grenfell) believed he had held up
to the reprobation of that house and of the public. 'His lion.
Friend went back" to the charter, and argued thatehe agree-
nient with .Mr. Pitt provided that all questions of balances
should be dosed. Did his lion. Friend recollect, he wits Sure.
he did not, or he could not have advanced this, that in one
measure of Mr. Percival's three millions had been allowed for
compensation for ballencesl Did he also forget that in 1813 the
late Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Vansittart, introduced
Bill, in consequence of the repeated discussions which the
subject had undergone in that House, which took away six
millions front the. Bank on the same account ? He would ask,
whether theywould have thus given up nine millions, if the
question of balances had been closed It was impossible to
say, that it had beets in•the- face of Mr. Percival's transaction
with the Bank. His lion. Friend said, upon the subject of
charges for management, that they only amounted to seven or
eight-pence in the pound. This might be true, and seven-pence
appeared a very small stint ; but when it 'came to be annually
levied upon the whole capital, amounting as it did lust year to
270,0001. it was a sum not to be thrown away in the present cir-
cumstances of the- country, lie hoped the Right • lion. Gent.
would give his, attention to this subject. Ile had no hesitation
in saying, that .100,0004 might be saved front this sum. If the
Right Honourable Gentleman and the Ilouse would • support
him in inetituting an inquiciii he would pledge himself to
_prove
that 200,0001. might be say by proper regulations. Ile did
not know whether he should not shortly move for &Select Com-
mittee rn the subject, and he should at least look wills Hon.
Friend Mr. Baring) for his support.
Mr.DARING was desirous of saying a few words 'in ex
planation. What he‘said upon the question of compensation
for balances was, not that it was closed, but that the balances
being reduced below what they were at the time of granting
the charter, the Bank ought not to be called upon to make'
compensation for that which they had already more than coin;
tiensated for. 'With regard to the -recommendation of his Hon.
Friend (Mr. Ricardo), he was satisfied that nothing could be,
snore injurious to the public credit, or to the capital and circu-
lation of the country, than the thriving of hard bargains with.
the Bank, so that it should scarcely kno* from year to year
whether it were solvent or not.
Mr. RICARDO did not partake the fears of his Honourable
Friend, who scented afraid that the Chancellor of the Excite-
Auer would be too hard fur the Bank. When it was considered
that its capital amounted-to 14 or 15 millions, it was not very
likely that the credit of the Bank would be hurt by the sort of
bargain which it made with the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
(A laugh.)
Mr. MABERLV contended, that although the allowance to'
the Bank for the management of the debt was nominally only 4,
per cent., yet that in reality it amounted to 6 per cent. He was
quite willing. that the .Bank should have a liberal bargain ; but
it was most. important that legal opinion should ascertain the
great question of whether the Act of Parliament which gave a
certain rate of charge for the management of the debt was bind-
ing and imperative. Ile knew there were various opinions upon
the subject, but he thought investigatlan.would lead to a legal
decision, diet the Act was not binding for the whole period of
the charter.
Mr. HOLE rose to throw out a suegeition which he believed
was not new—in case the charter should not be renewed, the
establishing a National Bank. By studs a.measore a million
and a half might be Keyed to the country. , A Government pos.
sessing it revenue of 50 or 00 million, might keep up a circula-
tion of 41) millions without difficulty or inconvenience. This
was a bold measure ; but he wet as confident of itepracticabi,
lity 33 he was of any thing upon which he had ever formeitl an
opinion. lithe present Chancellor of the Exchequer survived
The Charter —(A letigh.)—he meant .in office—he hoped be
would propoee, a plan of that natureeand by such means avail
hituselt of a new and extensive source for Ways and Means.
• The SPEAKER then read from the Chair the accounts de-
tailed in the motion. Upon that which related to the amount
of
sUirn.c
.11a.411111 RD TlvidendlN rose to ask the Right Hon. the Chancel,
• for of the ExchiqUer, whether ft was his intention that accounts
of at! Unclaimed Dividends should be laid before the House?
It could not be wished that die Government should eyed itself'
of the property of individuals.
The CHANCELLOR of theEXCHF.QCE It said, he should
have no object* to the production of any documents relating
to the subject.
Upon. question front awreN, we understood • Mr.
Matestetta that Bets of such property would be publised.
.111reORENVELL did not rise to trespass• furthei upon the
House,. but for the purpose of communicating information. An
Huh: Friend of his had referred to the ckpediency tit' having a
legal decision upon the Act which fixed the rate of charges for
the management of the debt. The opinions of Sir Samuel
Shepherd, thee Attorney.-General, and of the present Attorney-
General, then Solicitor-General, had been taken, -and they de-
cided that the. transaction could not be opened'. But no legal
opinion, was, infallible: Much depended .upon .the manner In.
which a case Wag put ; and, lie had immediately observed that
the case in question Ives put in an objectionable Manner. He
was confident that, if properly drawn up, the case would be re.
turned with a different opinion.
Mr. ,MANNING chntended that the opinions of the Lord
Chief Baron of Scotland and of the Solicitor-General Were'such
as left no doubt as to the legal construction or the Act, and that
it could not be disturbed without the consent of both parties..
The motion was then pUt and carried.
Lord A. /Milli LTOINT revived a notice which lie had given
in .luly.last, relative to Megistrates in Scotland, but we could
MA hear the date'for which the motion was Heed,

SUPPLY.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the
Order of the Day for bringing up the Report of the Commit.
tee of Supply. •
Air. HUME said he wished to ask a question of the Right
lion. the Chancellor of the Exchequer. In the last Session he
had moved for a return of the interests received upon money
deposited in'Saving Banks. Ile stated that the -00Vernment
only received three per cent. for the money it advanced; and
asked whether there was any intention of proposing measures
by which the public should be prevented front sittrering this
loss.
The CHANCELLOR of the EkCIIEQUER said, that
his present answer to the Hon. Member's question was perhaps
one that he should be obliged to, give to many others. It was
that of not having had time to give his attention as yet to the
subject...-(Hear !)-41e admitted that it was one•highly de.
serving attention.
Mr. BROGDEN brought up the Report of the Committee
of Supply,U and several resolut WC'S were agreed to.
Mr. HME gave notice that he should to4norrow move for
copies of ail' communications made or received by the Govern-
ment, relative to the efothhig of die Staff in Jersey.
Also for a return of the number of persons placed on half-pay
as Majors of Brigade in Ireland.
IN DEM NIT Y BILL.

The Indemnity Bill went through a Comthittee. Report to.
morrow.

COLONIAb TRADE BILL.

Upon the motion of Mr. WI-CatoTT the West Indio an
AmericAn Colonies Trade Bin wits tommittett. Report to.
morrow, •

IRISH AIILITIA REDUCTION BILL.
Dr. PHI LLIMORE brought in a Bill for the more speedy
reduction of the Sergeants, Corporals, and I)nunnmers of the
Stall' of the hlilitia in Irelane.
Read a first time, and ordered for a second reading this day
sennight.
Mr. IL SUMNER moved fora series of returns relative to
the port dues and charges paid by vessels ,entering into or
clearing Out of the port of Dublin for the last time years, stet-
ing by what authorities levied. Oulered.—Adjourned.

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS.
:Au:tufty or Commoss.;_
Maras, 18° Vie Februarii 1843
- •
Ito Aus•--Saltash,. Hinckley. and LutterwOrth, and Market Ilar-
-borough and Coventry—Bills ordered*. Wrexhiun and Barn:
hill, Alfreton. and Derby, WigtoWn, Stonnal Castle, &c.
Wellingborough, Otley and Sktpton, and Wansford and
Bourne—Pennons for Bills, referred to Conuuittees.
GAS LIGHT—Paisley, Dublin, and Stara-
ford Petitions for Bills,
IhIDGE AND CAUSEWAY—frayling referred to Coin-
. Doc x mimes.
FisllElLY—Einsworth
B RIDG E s—Haw, and Lary—Bills read a 2tl time, & committed.
lamovEmENTs—Carlisle—Petition for Bill referred. to a
Committee. Portman-sqaure—Bill ordered.
SMALL DEBTS—Select Committee appointed, "to inquire into
the • mode in • which Debts amouung to less than Fifteen
Pounds, are recovered in England and Wales, and to report
their observationi thereen to the House." Power to send for
persons, papers, and records ; tive to be the quorum.
INDEMNITY 0 be re pis day).
orted to-mor-
•
J.
11.1/ ADE— West India and American row tth,
Colonies

NOTICES- OF MOTIONS for THIS :DAY.
1. Mr. Hume—Abolition of the Office of Lieutenant-General
• of the Ordnance. •
2. Mr. Herries—Bill to regulate the appointment and swearing
into office of.- the Chancellor of the Exchequer of Ireland.
3. Lord Archibald Hamilton—Return 'of -.the Town Councils
.• of the several Royal Burghs of Scotland.
ORDERS of the DAY for THIS DAY.
1. Yeomanry Corps (Ireland) Bill—Second Reading.
2. Arms (Ireland) Bill—Second Reading.
3. Supply—Committee.
d. Ways anti Means—Committee.
6. indemnity Bill—Report.
0. West India and American Colonies Trade Bill;—Repcirt.
NOTICES GIVEN YESTERDAY.
Thursdaii, Feb. 20.

Lord John Russell—Committee to obtain Returns relating
to the Charters, and number of Voters in each Borough
sending Members to Parliament (deferred from Feb. 18.)
Friday, Feb. 21. •
Sir John Osborn—Note of Seamen. (In Committee of Sup.
. ply)—(deferred from Feb.l9.)
- Monday, Feb. 24.
Mr. Ilume..4lalf.pay or Allowances of Officers retired from
the Yeomanry of Ireland, and of 'England :—Corruyond..
ence with the Privy Council respecting the Staff and cloath.
ing of the 31ilitia of Jersey.
Thursday, Alarch 6.
Mr. Goulburn—Proposition regarding the commutation o
Tithes (Ireland).
Thursday, April 17.
Mr. Plunkett—Catholic Question (deferred from Feb. 20.)

AT a , Numerous • and Resp'ectatkie M CET-
ING, held at the GEORGE and VULTURE
TAVERN, Cornhill, London, on Friday, 14th of Febru-
ary; 1143, •
HENRY SMITH, Esq. in the Chair,
It was Resolved • - .
That the present time affords a proper opportunity to urge
the claims of the Inhabitants of London and its environs, to
relief from the Coast Duty on Coal.
• That we are so satisfied of the impolicy of any Duty upo.n
Coal, that we will not, at any time, countenance any proposi-
tion that will have the effect of extending the Duty upon Coal
for home consumption.,
That the Inhabitants of LondOn and its vicinity be invited
to attend a General Meeting, for the. purpose of considering
and adopting the best means of obtaining relief from the Coast
Ditty on Coal.
That a.Connitittee of Sixty Gentlemen be appointed, to pre-
pare the business for such General Meeting, and to take such
measures,, (by Communication with other persons who are now
affected by the Coast Duty on Coal) or otherwise, as they shall
see tit, towards obtaining relief from this partial Tax.
That a Public Meeting be called at the Clay of London Ta-
vern, Bishopsgate.Street, for FRIDAY, tho 21st Instant, at
One o'Clock, to consider the provriety of a Memorial to His
Majesty's Mtnisterst
,anti of a Petition to Parliament,' for relief
from the Coastwise Duty on Cold.
Sir CHARLES I'RIOE, Bart. in the Chair.
The Chair will be taken at TWO o'Cloek. precisely.
F Duty 9s. thl. per Chaldrun.—London pays .'.oQ,botli. per
annum.