The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-17 00:00:00

was exacted ; and the people had been reduced to a
subsistence upon the potato. The pre:ent landlords of
Ireland were responsible for the acts of their predeces-
sors, and they could not expect to escape. All the
property he had in the world was in laud in Ireland, so
that he could not be accused of partiality ; and he
was content to make his land responsible for the
support of the poor when they required parochial aid.
He believed, however, that the Bill would stimulate land-
lords to find employment for the people, and that far
less pauperism would exist than some Hon. Members
seemed to anticipate. He, however, objected to two of
the clauses of the Bill, first, the increase in the number
of ex-officio guardians, because they would interfere with,
and necessarily influence the conduct of, those better
fitted, by application, to discharge the duties of the office;
and, next, to the extreme limitation of out-door relief in
cases of extreme distress, so that a person who rented a
quarter of an acre could not receive aid, even
in the utmost urgency, unless lie relinquished it
and came into the workhouse with his family if there was
room for him—when perhaps a little aid might enable
him to retain his land, and prevent him from seeking aid
for the future; but, as a whole, he entirely concurred in
the measure, and believed sincerely that it would redound
to the advantage of Ireland.
Sir GEORGE GREY wished to offer a few observa-
tions to the House now that the Bill had reached its last
stage. It was a source of great gratification to him that
the question had not been made one of party—(Hear)
—and that they had all entered into its discussion with
the sole object of promoting by the best means
the prosperity of Ireland.—(hear, hear.) The Hon.
Baronet (Sir J. Walsh) had alluded to the
small number of Members who were present, but he
(Sir G. Grey) attributed this to an anxiety on the part
of those not present, to have the Bill pissed, without
any further delay, into a law, and to the ample dis-
cussions which had taken place in full houses on the
whole of its provisions. And in its last stage in that
House, it gave him great pleasure to bear his testimon3
to the temperate spirit in which it had been discussed,
even by those who were wholly opposed to it. The
general favour with which the Bill had been received,
and the way the opposition had been conducted, rendered
it unnecessary for him to enter at any length into a de-
fence of it. He entirely concurred in the sentiments
expressed by the Honourable Gentleman, the Member
for Wolverhampton (Mr. C. Villiers)—(Hear, hear)
—and the Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn
and the Hon. Baronet did not object to the principle of
the Bill ; they simply had some apprehension as to the
effect of the measure, in which he confessed he partici-
pated, owing to the difficulty which all social measures
had had to encounter in Ireland. Bnt he anticipated
the best results from it, and that it would have a can-
trary effect to that which those who opposed it seemed
to anticipate. Some said that this was not the time in
which a measure of the kind could be most effectively
carried out. If they expected that the present state of
things in Ireland would soon pass away, they would
have been wrong in passing the measure as a permanent
one ; but when he considered the failure of the potato
crop, and the permanent condition of Ireland—when they
had thus pressed upon them the real condition of Ire-
land, the absolute necessity for such a measure as this
became more than ever manifest.—(Hear, hear.) He
thought, therefore, that they were called upon to provide
—not simply a temporary measure, like the Bill for the
Relief of the Destitute Poor—but a permanent measure,
which had for its object the permanent improvement of
the people of that country, and b prevent, as far as
practicable, a recurrence of those periods of extreme
distress, which had swept away thousands by the disea.,e
which it had engendered. The, Hon. Gentleman said
that out-door relief would prove injurious in Ireland.
They should consider the relative position of that coun-
try and England, and that a few hours' sail, and for a
few pence, the poor of that country could come here and
obtain that out-door relief which was denied them in
their own country.—(Hear, hear.) He was in the
habit of receiving from Liverpool and from parts of
South Wales every day representations complain.
ing of the hardships to which the ratepayers of those
places were subject in consequence of the continual
arrival of large numbers of destitute Irish for whom no
provision had been made. 90,000 had come over to
Liverpool within the last few months, 30,000 had
emigrated to America, and 60,000 remained to be sup-
ported out of the rates. From South Wales similar
complaints had been received, and therefore he thought
that under the circumstances less could not have been
done in justice to the people of this country, and in
justice to the people of Ireland, than the passim of such
a measure as this.—(Hear, hear.) But some Hon. Gen-
tleman enquired how out-door relief would provide
employment for the people. True, out-door relief alone
would not afford employment, but he had great hope
that the Bill would create a stimulus for employ-
ment as the proprietors of land and others
would rather provide employment for the poor
than pay high poor'a rates to keep them
in indolence. The proprietors of land would not, during
the operation of the Bill, be content to sit down in
apathy to watch the course of events, as they would he
roused to make vigorous exertions to provide employ-
ment for those who stood in need of it. Even the dis-
cussior.s which had taken place had tended in that direc
tion. The Hon. Gentleman the Member for 'Wolver-
hampton, had alluded to an address agreed to ia Wexford
by a considerable number of influential persons, calling
upon those who had it in their power, to promote em-
ployment, emigr :lion, fisheries, draining of land, &c., in
order to place the people out of a position to need rs lief
as paupers Tee address was well worthy the attention
of the House—(Hear, hear)—and he trusted it would re-
ceive a hearty response, in other parts of the
country. If they acted in the spirit pointed
out in the address, the gloomy anticipations
which some entertained with respect to the Bill would
not be realised. It was in the exertions of all classes in
Ireland for one common purpose—the regeneration of
their country—aided by the measures which the Govern-
ment had brought forward and intended to propose for
the purpose of developing the resources of the country.
and to provide employment for the people, that they
must mainly depend for the promotion of that state of
things in Ireland which they all wished so ardently to
see. In conclusion, he trusted that the measures intro-
duced by her Majesty's Government would have the
effect of laying the foundation of a better social system—
would insure that co-operation and mutual support which
was so necessary in carrying out the great work of ame-
lieration—would be the harbinger of the dawn of is
brighter day for Ireland—end would put an end to the
lamentable scenes which were at present to be witnessed
in that unhappy country. With that hope he trusted
that the Bill would soon become the law of the land, and
that it would be carried out in the same spirit which in-
fluenced those who introduced it.

Lord GEORGE BENTINCK thought it right to no-
tice the assertion that had been made by the Hon. Mem-
ber for Kerry. In perfect good humour he was bound to
say, that the clause be proposed to introduce into the
Bill when it was in Committee bad taken the House by
surprise. Now such a statement was not in accordance
with the facts of the case, for he intimated his intention
of proposing the clause on the 11th of March, and it was
published three times succes,ively in the daily papers of
London, and did not come on for discussion till the
29th of March. This being the case, he denied that he
could be justly charged, as he had been in Ire-
land, with a felonious intention of imposing upon
the occupiers of Ireland, in a stealthy manner,
any burden they were not entitled to bear.
There could be nothing more unjust than to say that he
wished to exempt the landlords of Ireland from their
responsibilities. He was not connected either in a close
or a distaut manner with the land of Ireland, and he did
not believe that this clause would have the effect of im-
posing upon the occupiers any improper liability. The
second clause, which he proposed, with regard to the
landlords of the 5/. tenements, which amounted to
76,029 in Ireland, making it imperative on them to pay
the pour rates on that property, ought, he thought, to
have freed him from such a charge. He thought it un-
just, therefore, that the charge of feloniously attempt-
ing to impose an undue burden on the occupiers
of the land of Ireland, or one which it was not
right and proper for them to bear, should be made
against him ; and he merely rose to disclaim such an
' intention, and to state that, whether he had been right
or wrong in the views he had entertained, he was in-
fluenced throughout dl these discussions by the best
feelings to primate, to the utmost of his judgment, the
good of the people of Ireland.
Mr. LABOUCHERE thought that the Noble Lord
had fully cleared himself of the imputation which had
been made against him with regard to the clauses re-
ferred to. He happened to be in Ireland since the Bill
was last under discussion, and there could be no doubt but
the clause had created considerable apprehension. He
had no doubt that, if it had been carried, the difficul-
ties of her Majesty's Government would have been greatly
increased, and it would be impossible to carry the
Bill into effect. As the Bill had been just now
so ably and so fully treated by his Right Hon. Friend
(the Home Secretary). He would not take up their
time at greater length at present, but sincerely hoped
that the anticipation which that Right Hon. Gentleman
expressed, would be realized, and that it would lay the
foundation of a better state of things for that country.
Mr. GOULBURN was of opinion that the Bill would
depend very much, for its successful operation, on the
way in which boards of guardians administered it ; and
the Government should take special care that every
facility should be extended to those bodies to smooth
the difficulties with which the measure was surrounded,
With regard to the clause proposed by the Noble
Lord (Bentinck) he thought it would have the effect of
imposing a check upon the undue administration of
relief. It was with that view that he supported it, and
he had nor yet heard anything to shake that opinion.
He thought that from the moment the law passed,
the Government should be prepared to carry it into
operation in all its dtails, and to resist the improper
claims which would be advanced by many for relief. It
was the fashion to attack the Irish landlords in that
House, but if they themselves were assailed by crowds of
people suffering from famine, they might form some idea
of the difficulties to which the landed gentry of Ireland
were subject d. If the Government would not take care
that the law was enforced in a proper manner, it would
be found that instead of affording relief, it would only
exaggerate the miseries of the people. He was, there-
fore, of opinion that the boards of guardians should be
protected from imposition, and that the difficulties with
which the operation of the Bill would be accompanied,
should be as far as possible removed.
_

Lord JOHN RUSSELL agreed with nearly all that
had been said by the Right Hon. Gentleman who had
just sat down. He agreed with him, that the Govern
client should protect the boards of guardians, not only
in granting relief, but also in refusing it to those who
might not be proper objects for receiving it....._
(Hear. hear-) He regretted, however, to see that
many of those who addressed themselves to the
consideration of this subject, seemed'
from the
views they expressed, and the line of argument they fol-
lowed to naisund.:rs:and the nature of the law altogether.
It had been represented by some, and in the speech of
the Archbishop of Dublin it hui beta Pproseuted, that