The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-23 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, March 22.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the `Pooh
sack at Five o'clock.

DRAINAGE OF LAND BILL.
On the motion of the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, this
Bill was read a second time.
BANKRUPTCY AND INSOLVENCY BILL.
Lord BROUGHAM rose to move the second reading
of this Bill. He said, as the subject was familiar
to most of their Lordships, and had the approbation
of the Noble and Learned Lord on the WOolsack
and other learned Members of their Lordships' Heuse,
he did not find it necessary to enter into any long
statement on that occasion. But he would merely
state his object in moving their Lordships to
sanction the amendments proposed in the Bill. Thfir
Lordships would recollect that some years ago he had
introduced a Bill, which had been passed by both Houses
into a law, abolishing imprisonment for small debts.
They were aware that that Bill provided that persons
apprehensive of arrest, if they chose to appeal to the
Bankruptcy court, give up their property, and stand
their examination, would receive a protecting order
from the Court; and if no hesitation to give up all their
property had appeared, or no contumacy, or no extra-
vagance, a final order was made by the court,
which protected him against further proceedings on
the same debt. He (Lord Brougham), how-
ever, had since seen reason for transferring
this jurisdiction to the Insolvent Commissioners
from the Bankruptcy Commissioners. He
had been 'urged to do so originally, but he found that
the Bankruptcy Court worked well, and seemed to
have the preference over the other ; for that
Court had more stringent power to execute
the objects for which the court bad been erected, and,
therefore, many more applications were made to that
court. But these Commissioners, unusual though it
eas for judges, who commonly enlarged their jurisdic-
tion, had almost extinguished their jurisdiction.
The second was a still greater evil than the first. It
was extremely inconvenient to mix up two diffe-
rent codes of laws, each to be administered by
the same judge ; and while, to make up the
third evil, the merchants and traders of the
city of London objected altogether to the insolvent law
being administered in the Bankruptcy Court. Now,
in addition to 500/., each Commissioner received a
salary of 2,0001. There were six of them; but he did
not think there would be six long—for, from a return he
held in his hand, he found that they did not work more
than twenty weeks a year with the insolvent busi-
ness, and, when that was taken from them
by this Bill, the number would be reduced
to fifteen or sixteen weeks a year. Now, it was too bad
to pay six Commissioners 2,000/. a year each for
so small a quantity of labour, besides six regis-
trars at 1,000/. a sear each, and official assig-
nees at not less than 2,000/. to 3,0001. a year.
He proposed, therefore, that the insolvency business
should be taken away from the Court of Bankruptcy,
and then the Commissioners would be reduced from six
to three. It was theiropinion, he knew, that two Commis-

sippers wonld do, F.,ncl perhaps for sllordirsry PorPcses,
wmild . _

. . . .
in couna,-ftia,i aihars woi,.,i aibv wfilch 5$ (mid augul'ils
the business. la order to meet any increased busine.ss
in the court from this circumstance, he though;
three would be the best number to proposg-
With respect to the Court of Review, it was
already cubstartially abolished, and he proposed that t
should be altogether, as he saw no reason why the busi-
ness of this court should not be transacted by the Com'
missioners themselves. NV:th regard to the appeals re:
Wing to matters of law, they could, as before, be take'
before the Lord Caancellor or the Vice- Chancellor.
He ought to add that in 1831 the Court of Review was
continued by the measure he proposed ; that measure
was much opposed, at the time, but ultimately it :o
bp,
carried with the Court of Review. It was not re-1 e
foe him then to predict that there would be no business
for this court, as it had so happened. But this rt.
suit, he believed, had arisen mainly from the admirable n'eur:i
ing of the system substituted fur the old one. As he "0
stated, the six Commissioners were to be reduced to three...
the vacancies arose from death, resignation, or proinott
This would effect a saving, from the reduction of the Corn
sioner, of 6,0001. ; on the Registrars a saving of 3,m:41a
on the official assignees from 4,0001. to 5,00 W. Altoge.,4/,
saving of 15,0001, would be effected. Very nearly 20°,.is.
had been recovered by the working up of these old eels'. et
sions. Another alteration he intended in the Insolvent to
was to abolish the present system of going circuit, which pi
attended with a great expense without giying,tii.
countervailing advantages. Mr. Commissioner Phi.V'e,
for instance, was appointed to go to Caernarvon to-un.°
~.t.
yet in many places he had but threeor four cases to adjeuirth
upon. He proposed, therefore, to do away with these eireo
ofW
and place the duty of the Commission in the hands
Local Courts appointed under the Insolvent Act. The r:0;
ciple of the bankruptcy and insolvent laws would, with cleg
two exceptions, not be interfered with. New the excepts
were in this case. The great difference, their Lordships Wois
aware, between the Bankruptcy and the Insolvent Acts 00
twofold ; first, where the party was a trader, and where he Tye
not ; and the other was with respect to his discharge- ,t $
bankrupt's certificate was not only a personal discharge. 'lir
discharge against his property for the time coming. The
osly
charge under the Insolvent Act was one which affected
ere
the person. Now, he was inclined to think that there
many cases in which it might be requisite to vest in the vi
or
missioners, before whom the cases might come, a
to take into consideration the circumstances of the ret
In the first place, the likelihood of the Weld:et
succeeding to an estate, and in the second place the condo
of ot the party himself, whether he had been grossly extreic,
gant, and above all, whether, knowing that be was in anros
solvent state, he deferred coming forward until all his P
perty was expended. He had framed the Act to take cognilei/edY
of such eases as these. In those cases the Bill loeve.,„i"„, r,
protection for his future gains. The case of a poor '`'-ight
which was really a very lamentable one, had lately beeebreagon
before him. He had been unfortunate and tried to rboy
again, but nobody would lend him a horse or a cow, as
did the property would have been seized by his credite,lo
That was just such a case which came within the spirit of be
nd`
Act. He had now stated all that he meant to say, to
should now conclude by moving the second reading vi ije
Bill, to which he trusted there would be no opposition.,
by
then proposed that the matter should stand over until after„ be
holidays, when the several clauses which it contained wee 0
known, and all its weak points would be ascertained:.pm kis
•
might then be referred, together with the Bill of Me its
and Learned Friend on the Woolsack, to a Select Cemrsined
up stairs, and out of the two a measure might be ob
which would give the trade and the people of the country:4;e
inestimable benefit of a certain mode of proceeding in
tided
both of insolvency and bankruptcy. His Lordship COe"
with moving the second reading of the Bill.
The LORD CHANCELLOR was not disposed to offerifitille
opposition to the second reading of this Bill, especially aloe
course which his Noble and Learned Friend intended to Piject,
In 1842 he had himself introduced three Bills on this suirjos
but he had not at that time had the opportunity of girikefOill
investigation to the subject which it required, but the of
which he now had before the House, met, he believed, groat
the points of the Bill of his Noble Friend. That
chiefly to the details, but did not touch the great Prle-osds
which ought first to be settled, then the details should bed both
conformable to them. Th- better plan would be to fen ster,
the Bills up to a Select Committee, for it was not to besictee
posed that the majority of their Lordships could be Ife(kied pot,
with the subject which was involved in them. Relates'
however, anticipate that there would be any greater 0.410
lion obtained by the Committee, or that any better Saco
would be arrived at than those obtained by the Cer°l:sol
which sat in 1828. It should be recollected that tne,'oer
already a machinery in existence • there was now three yen'
missioners, each of whom took three circuits e
each, from which much good was to be esP-rek,
and, at least, by which much expense was ice„_,,"r iotes
He said by the recent act judges had been aProiles
throughout the country to every district of about sevekoe. .201.
extent ; so that a man might now bring a debt wit"'
amount to court within seven miles of his residence. ri!
duties devolving upon these judges might likely be..,ll,,taicel
they had still the power by act of Parliament to Pl,OlllO
but how their time might be occupied the Governteen.:n;ioess
not arrive at any definite opinion. If, however, the "-aeeec
should happen to increase too much, it would become soa
nary to make additional appointments. Now, his plob&ern
Learned Friend had proposed to give these Small Debterostl
power in Bankruptcy. Why ? did their Lordships uncle kso
the state of the Bankrupt laws at that moment ? Did they bri
that a bankrupt in Norfolk must come up to London'
all his witnesses, and attend his several examine°, upon,
an immense expense. A deputation had recently Waite
him to represent the great impediment which this neoee'.._,:ier
coming up to London to Basin hall-street furnished t tft to
ceedings between debtor and creditor. They reprert incur
him that the expense was so enormous, that rather tna.s_4ol
it, they would not cane to London. The same renter.] r jript
to Yarmouth, which was the limit of the London distric_rue, of
fi a debtor could find a competent judge within seven:morose
his residence, it was not likely that he would incur the 0 ether
of coming up to London. Besides that, there were greet
points in the law of debtor and creditor, upon eztais seri*
complaints had been made, and which required tbt ointss
ous attention. He would not then remark upon the'lhan to
nor had he said samuch as he had with any either the than
impress upon their Lordships the great importance 01 to
ject, and the necessity of appointing a Select Coraln"""
take the Noble and Learned Lord's Bill into consideration. ble
Lord ASHBURTON said he was not aware that the illekts
and Learned Lord intended taking the second reading fool.
Bill that night. He had a petition to present to their 1e,4,
ship signed by most of the large firms of the city of
51.1(f.:6
bearing on the law of debtor and creditor. He we. nevifolt
however, to hear that the Noble Lord had determined
alter Elas.sfir'
a course as that the subject would come on again
and that the Bill would be referred to a Select Committee
when the as
might be heard. These gentlemen wo rk.s;
them that as much as 24,0(10,0001. a year was lost by batlnro
He was afraid that the gill would encourage to a frig Pos
extent frauds on tradesmen. Before such a measure
soo
agreed to, he hoped that the Noble Lord (Lord Brlelb bet
would consult not only those who were learned in theinesp
also the great commercial interests of the country..
consider
ing with a question of such magnitude they ought i''and Oa,
the propriety of resuming arrest on mesne process, to, aria
the distinction which ought to exist between bankr%tii'insioe
insolvency. He submitted that there was a great r'_ioicuitieh
between an individual in business, who got into di.Tosion.
and a person who contracted debts for his own gran" deo!!
The law, therefore, as applied to each case should he_Aikiph
distinct. He threw out these suggestions to their LO7O ihs
and hoped that when the House went into Committee
°a
all its provisions would be fully considered.
Lord BROUGHAM was most anxious that the
_,Preolis°
pori
of the Bill should be as fully considered and disclose" tbs
sible. With regard to the other matters, alluded 10 dsbe
Roble Lord, he was also quite willing that they obi.' gite'
reconsidered. If any error had been made in abolisbirealriel
prisonment for debt, it was but right that they sheuht„„ssib„le'
their steps, though he felt himself that to go back was ilti to It'
The Bill was thee read a second time, and ordered
committed after Easter.
BOARD OF WORKS.
The Earl of CLARENDON laid on the table certain the
respondence with the Irish Board of Works, Wove
months of January and March last.
DRAINAGE OF LANDS BILL.
Bill,
Earl MINTO proposed the second reading of this
soul
which, he said, he would say but little, as the Bill bade $l,
met with such general concurrence. The object of ""otb•
was for the advancement of loans
,by the Governmee'elo'
proprietors of land for the purpose of drainage and oth.• cots'
provements. As its details could be better considered ii!Ons
mittee than now, he would reserve further observatid 'lO6
then, and he would now move that it be read a seceere •
arid as the measure was important, he would further nle
it be committed to-morrow. 0 Or
Lord EGLIN TON would not do anything to delay
cellent a int asure. Still there was a point or two to cele A"
would call attention. The first was, the limitatioe.,ts,:
years. This would be very inconvenient in several reel'i;"B se
in many cases the improvement on the land could neLitstS
carried out in that time. The second point was, then noeS
of the sum to 10,000/., which he thought was a ulat'A.ollo-
venient arrangement. He considered the sum adreel'-
be in proportion to the rental of the land. flrd
Earl MINTO said, whatever advantages might errinere,
the proposed alterations, there would be considerable
i o
s ife
in meeting the suggestions of the Noble Earl. It lige ef
portant that the Bill should be got into operation as arty
possible, considering the distressed condition of meg Pi o& of
Scotland ; therefore no delay should, if possible, take Ppirl,
Lord STANLEY agreed with the Noble Earl (these
Eglinton) that the limitation of 10,000/. was an une"o ofbs
position. It was a departure from the original intend° rotle,o
Bill, which was, as he understood it, to increase the! be
tiveness of the soil. He considered the advances shoal
u
proportion to the rental of the estates. eeesii,ol
Earl GREY said that it had turned out that the lej ?
for relief was mach greater than was at first apprehene -;1046
the question then arose how was the money to be ell; sser,,
On inquiry it was ascertained that the great propriet? 01_1'
in a much better position than the small owners of late' Saito"'
was accordingly resolved to give the assistance to tuefle °/0
and leave the former to drain the lands themselves• dbe
not understand the Noble Earl to say that there sherliold
power given to barrow more than 10,0001., but that ebtotho
the limit in general cases, and that there should be 105de,,,,
limitation under that sum, so that the relief might he the a:
general and as extensive as possible. With respect
se''!any !it',
tricts in Scotland he did not conceive that there '4 of
elusion whatever to forbid their partaking of the bene ;0 Ire
grant. There was evidently the same destitution 0 e 4" esl
land. The people were therefore entitled to relief
„ of
with the proprietors in the sister country.
After a few words from the Earl of M •INT°, suPr„ft
the Bill, it was read a second time. LAI4Pei
SALE OF ENCUMBERED ESTATES IN IBS
The LORD CHANCELLOR moved the first re od.ev
the Bill for the Sale of Encumbered Estates in housed' aerie'
doing so said that there bad been some delay in the linure '",
of this Bill, but not more than was necessary to consul
0„
machinery of the Bill. Leetebe
Lord hTANLEY wished to ask his Noble and, t
re
Friend when he proposed to take the second reading„ the
,0
Bill? As it was of very considerable importance, an ble
were few of the Irish Peers in town, it seemed ad'
iea
postpone the second reading till after the Easter recess.
't scauio be
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that as rasps'
necessary to circulate the Bill in Ireland before it veriiesi,
second time, he did not propose to take it till after the !dor
The Bill was then read a first time, and their Le"
adjourned.

HOUSE 01 COMMONS. March 22.
ARMY SERVICE BILL. ti
On the order of the day for the second reading °-
Bill being read, k'ng
Sir H. W. BARRON rose for the purpose of rall-hiiio
come explanations relative to a statement made bYirrioll
in the House on Friday night, on the subject of the is
Poor-law, which had been, however, misrepresenw:m
some of the public journals. What he had stated " 0
that the value of the property in England assessed of
the poor-rates amounted to 62,000,0001.; the supra,
which it was assessed was 5,000,0001.; that, icefair
ing to the calculations of the Poor-law Coo3""ja
sioners, the number of paupers in Ireland no,
ordinary years was between 2,300,000 and 2,40°,""