The Sun.
London, England, 1812-02-18 00:00:00

NEGOCIATION WITH AMERICA.

Lord HOLLAND, sexing the Noble Secretary of
'State for the Foreign Department in his place, could
not help putting a question, respecting the answer
to which, and every thing connected with it, their
Lord,hii,s must be sensible that no small anxiety at
present prevailed among a very lirge proportion of
the Pt9i)le of this eott, try. It must be obi ions that
he alluded to the state of our rdations with America.
On that point, no ordinary degree of solieitules was
telt, and his objett in putting a question of A nature
so generally interesting, must only be to relieve in
some measure that very general' anxiety. He wish,
ed, therefore, to know if tuere was any objection,
and it any, ot what nature it ,vas, to the production •
of the corre,pondence reiritive to the negotiation
,with Amer ca ? He should limit his intended too-
Lion only to thoie rape:rs which were iheady in the
hands of the public, and if the granting even ot
these was declared by the Noble Secretory to be
even in its tendency detrimental 'to the public ser-.
vice, he should retrain tram making any motion on
the subject.
The MArquis WELLESLEY had no instru6tions
from his Royal Highness the Prince respecting the •
preparation and produttion of such papers to the
House, but should make it his business to learn his
Royal Highnoss's pleasure in that oat tit:Wert-. In the
mean while, it would be unnecessary for him to en-
ter into any explanation of the nature of these pa-
pers, and begged the Noble Lord would allow him
till the time he should bring fOrward his motion, to
postpone his (the Marquis Wellesley%) sentimtuts
respecting them, tit! the Noble Lord's motion was
regularly before the House.
Lord HOLLAND pressed his question a second

time, and was answered nearly as before by the
Noble Secretary of State.
Adjourned.

ROUSE OF commaNs,

MONDAY, FEB. 17.
The second reading of the Irish Population. Bill
was postponed till Thin sday.
The Lords' Ad Aniundmmt Bill was read a third
time and passed.
The Woods and Forests Bill went through a Com-
mittee, in which a clause was init., duced to em-
power the Duchy of Lartis'er to grant certain
leases for gg years. The report was bought up,
and ordered to be taken into further Onsiderat ion on
that day three weeks ; and the Bill, as amended, was
ordered to be printed.
DROITS OF ADMIRALTY. •
On the motion of Mr. BROUGHAM, the Accounts
presented to -the House, on the mit) inst. relative
to the Droits of Admiralty, were ordered to be
,printed.
Mr. BROUGHAM expressed his wish to know why
the Accounts ordered a nionih ago of the amount
and appropriation of the Drubs of Admiralty had not
been laid before the House ?
Mr. WHARTON replied, that they we're at the bar,
and immediately proceeded tkither sod brouglic,
them up. They were ordered to be primed.
Mr. BROUGHAD4 gate notice, that he
,r,vould to-
morrow move fur a return of all the sums that:
might have been taken from the Fund of the Droits
of Admiralty, and afterwards restored to the same
-specifying the partiCular sums and occa.ions.
Ihe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEOU ER said, that
he was wholly ignorant of any such occurrence as
that 'to which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's
notice referred.
-.BROUGHAM observed, that he might have
--;Esin misinformed on the subject, but at least he,

oiished to ftscertain whether, or not such an abuse
had ever taken place.
The CHANCELLOR of the tKCHRMIth declared his
peetect readiness to accede to the motion.
In a subsequent part of the evening, the accougat
was moved--for by Mr. Calcraft, under the form of
an Address to his Royal Highness the Prince Re-
gent, and the motion was agreed to.
STATE OF THE NATION.

Sir T. TURTON gave notice, that on Thursday
se'nnight he would move for the House to resolve
itself into a Committee of the whole House on the
State of the Nation.
Mr. LUSHINGTON brought up the report of the
Committee of Ways and Means. The resolutions
(relative to the funding of Exchequer bills) were
agreed to; and Bills were ordeted to be brought in
accordingly.

ARMY ESTIMATES.
Lord • PALMERSTONE stated his intention of post-
poning until Friday the consideration of the Army
Estimates, with the exception of one item, which

would not admit of delay.
On his Lordship's motion, the House then re-
solved itself into a Committee of Supply ; and,
having agreed to a resolution of granting 100,0001.
to his Majesty for the expeuces of the Local Mi-

litia for-the present year, resumed ; and the report
was ordered to brought up to-morrow.
The report of the House of Commons Offices'
Bill hivi3g been taken into further consPeration,
theli was recommitted. The reptatt to-morrow.
PUNISHMENT OF FRAME-BREAKERS.
Mr. Secretary RYDER moved the second reading
of the 8,11 for the more exemplary punishment of
persons destroying frame-wolf,
Mr. ARERCROMBIE disclaimed the intention of
offering; any wan,on opposition to a measure of this
'wale, but at the same time declared, that after the
most mature consideration, he felt it impossible to
concur in a Bill, which, in his opinion, violated one
of the most important principles of our penal legis-
lation: At the beSt he was persuaded that it would
be ineffectual. None of the offenders had yet re--
ived the punishment provided by the existing
law ; and this difficulty of detection and conviction
had been ascribed to their complete con,ccrt and
union. Now he was assured that this union would
be rendered still more binding, and detection ren
dered still more difficult, by the proposed measure,

effect of which would thus be the reverse 'of
hat which was intended.

Mr., ORDE, on the contrary, maintained, that
the existing Combination afforded the strongest proof
that the terror of the punishment of death was re-
quired in order to dissolve it. .
,
The Hon. Mr. HERBERT complained of the want
of information under which the House (from their
recent refusal to appoint a Committee) laboured
with respect to the causes of those disturbances,
and their probable cure. No proof had been ad-
duced that the existing punishment of transportation
for fourteen years was inadequate to the purpose
or repressing the offence. Adverting to the State-
ment made by the Right Hoo.,Gentleman on Fri-
day, of a supposed connivance on the part of some
of the tenants of the hoses id which frames had
been destroyed, he asked why a civil suit for the
value of the frames had not been resorted to in such,
cases He'deprecated she multiplication of capital
punishments, and expressed his conviaion that
many of the late atrocious crimes had originated in
the frevency of such: horrid speciacles.
Mr. G. Sr4ITU declared, that the lace-frames were
wholly unprotected by any law, and expre-sed his
firm conviction; that unkss instant and effectual
means were adopted for the restoration, of the peace
in she county of Nottingham,
.very great mischief,
indeed, might justly be apprehended.—He should
be glad, at some future period, to see the cause of
the, di,turiances brought under the consideratiJn
of Parliament : but their first object ought to be to
quell them. •
Mr. LOCKHART. was convinced that she anxiety
not to iticre.Se the number of capital punishments
was notcoofined to the Hon. Gentleman oppo•iie,
but that it was ,geneially prevalent in the House.
This,yeas.a case, however, in which he hough t c hat
the enaelitient of Capital punishment would have a
bendicial 14fea, and would particularly operate .to
deter offenders, through the medium of the impres-
sion N hick the fear of it would make on the minds
of their wives and families. The offences in .ques-
"lion were, -indeed, of the meat serious nature, and
approached most nearly to coustruaive levying of
war, that was, to high treason. Lord Hales men-
• tioned a case of breaking looms in L-ndon, which
five out of the 12 Judges declared to be aEdually eon-
struaive levying of war or high treason. A similar
judgment had been pronounced on some individuals
in the,reign of Anne, for destroying meeting-hOuSes.
He should support -the Bill ; but he conceived that
the offender ought to have some guards similar • to
those'possessed by any one accused of high treason;
and, therefore, when in the Committee, he should
propose the introduction of a clause giving the pri-
soner at least the benefit of one counsel.
Mt. HattagriT (of Kerry) sill:roiled the Bill, and
instanced cases in Ireland in which the terror of
capital punishment had led to the detection of
crimes. The law would not be unalterable like
thoSe of the Medes,and Persians, but might be, and
ought • to be, repealed, whenever the emergency
should-cease.
Mr. WIcOTTE-SLEY, on the other hand, maintain-
ed, that the greater the punishment the less the
probability of convicling the offenders.
Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY contended, that the Bill
now before the House was not calculated to afford
that remedy which the framers seemed to 'appre-
hend it, would produce. The evils ssould exist as
before. With respect so the causes of those evils,
whether they proceeded from disputes between the
maters and the journeymen, of whether they pro-
ceeded 'root the diminution of. human labour, in
consequence.of the employment of the iostroments.
whiCli were the objeds ,for demolition, the !louse
Ac as not informed ; but if, instead of hotryiug the
Bill on, a Committee was appointed to inquire into
those causes„- tlien'the House might proceed on the
principles of justice. The 28th of the King, which
went to punish offenders of this description with
transportation for t 4 years, was still .in force, yet,
as faras-he could learn, not one prosecution had
taken place; From what cause did
,this arise? The
Gorerument, the Magistrates, and indeed the
of the kingdom sere aware of the Act. He could
only trace the want of prosecution to one of two

cau*e4 either thpit the Magistracy were in a tot'nA
bination not to execute the or thst the diffi•
culty of procu'ring evidence to convia the offenders
was great. If persons were &erred from -7 lying:,
evidence by threats, would the knowledge that such
offences were to be punished with death be the
means of inducing conviction What prospeat
would there be of-drminishing the evils, by inflict-
inga capital punishment ? Upon Loking at 'he

he-found it so worded as to hupo,e the sarne

punishment alp on an idle apprentice
.boy found in,

juring his master's frames, although he had nothing
to du will) the more serious olischitsf. This surely

could not be legislating equitably nor wisely. He
strongly:deprecated the further progress, without
minute inquiry into the necessity for the Bill.
_ _

There
of the evils, and, without information, the House
would not do their duty to the Ptiblic if tlyy passt.d

the Bill.

Mr. BRAdGR BATHURST thought, that after,the
long continuance of these disgraceful bcenes,%lter

the-notice taken of them in the Fr, nch papers by the

common enemy, and the necessity of same mine ef.

• _
ficient measure from the Government to put a stop
to them ; it would be too much, the present law
being insufficient for that purpose, to say, that this
Bill should oat proceed. He tegretted the manner

in which ,the measure had been received by many
Gentlemen, and the appeal of the Honourable and

L•arned Gentlerf)an to the House, because all ought

to be convinced that it was high time to put do.vn

these outrages. He was ready to admit, and regretted,
in common with those who did regret, the neces-

sity for increasing the A6ts imposing capital punish-
ment ; but when it wai found that the existing law
was inadequate to the prevention and supprev.ion of
any crime, then it became the Legislature to inter-,
fere, and point out a more effeetual mode. The re-
sew- measure was not brought for,vard with a
to puniih, but to prevent, the crime to which it re.b
ferred ; it bad not ,for its object, as supposed, the

-shedding of liuman,Mood, but to render the coau-.
mission of' this sort
,of offence less frequent. With
resp:d. to the prearnWe 'the Bill, it o rtainly did
not comprise: ther. Whole of the -grounds for tire
adoption of the measure, nor did the Bill itself, as
the Hon. and Learned Gmtleman supposed, pro-
vide for the punishment of idle or mischievous ap-
prentices.; it was intended to put a stop to tide out-
rages. But if there were any objectionable words
in it, those might be obviated in the Committee.—
The peace of the ,country be cheaply purchased by
the forfeiture of? feyLlives, in order to prevent future
outrage on the property, of individuals, and the tran!.
quility Ole Sttt6. ' •
C—Wlrtoohztivought the Right Honourable
Gentlen2an,hactßisconceived the question, which
was-not whether the present law was effectual, but
whetherth'eaiA'ditiOn of punishment would render it
more.SU-? -Heatontended too inquiry.
Sir A. ProoTT, admitted, that if the Bill was in-
tended to extend the provisions of the 284) of the
King, for the protection of lace-frames, then it was
fittingit should proceed; but the object of it was to
make both cases, namely, the offence of breaking _
stocking-frames and lace-frames, a capital off-nce. .
The Act went to inflict what could not be consi-
dered -as a light punishment for' the offence—traes-
portation for 14 years ! Had that punishment been
tried Befrire the House was called upon to extend
the measure of punishment, they ought to be satis-
fied that the 28th of the King had been enforced and
found ineffectual. If that . was proved, then the
House might be justified in making the offence czs-
pital. He understood, howe‘er, that not one con-
viCtion had taken place in the whole of the time, a
period of
,2g years since the passing of the Act.—
But thenit might be said that it was not enforced,
from the .dihlylty of detecting offenders. Would
increasing tie" tit afford greater facilities to
detection ?,L, Wou,lßl,..the reludance to give evidence
be ditnin'shsd, in ,conrquence of the knowlestge i hat
the. offenders would be hanged if convicted ? It had,
been sail that:• it'SVaita salutary Bill, because it would
operate in terrorent. There were, however, Acts
enough of that nature, which the House must ha
aware do not operate as a terror. Nay, the very re-
verse was the case, for many persons were deterreai •
from prosecuting, because the punishment for the
offence was capital. It the House suffered the Bill
to proceed, they legislated upon principles not suf-
ficiently,uederstne‘ He trusted they would pause,
and not suffer it to go to a Committee, where
the probability was that it would be ultimately re-
'jetted. -
My. •
Seettaary RYDeR conceived that it was un-
necessary forehicn-to do more than to advert to two
Or three argueents,advaeced against the Bill. Wit ro
resped to the arguments of the Hon. and Lear wed
Gentleman,-he was not disposed to receive them as'
sacred, because they proceeded upon the suppoe-
tion that, the measure was ao framed, as io exceed
the provisions of the twenty eighth of the K,ntg,
.which 'Ad the Hon. and. Learned Gentleman aaa,
stated to be ineffectual. The Right Hoe. Seem-t.ity
was not prepared to say that the Bill would answer
the purposes for which it was intended, but in a
.vase like the present, it was at least desirable to
nvike the experiment. The House, lie. was sere,
under the circumstances disclosed, would -not be
disposed to reject the Bill in this stage, but vk o ed.
let, it gO to the Cominittee, and there the argeelates
would come with more force. If the irate ot the
County of Nettingha n was looked at, no Gent,e-
man would contend that the disturbances ought to
be allowed to exist. He did assure those Gen le-
in-n wholiatVdeire him the opportunity of -vrewieg
his coeduktaiiloanOvotrrdble light, that he highly
prized their good opinions. Ito what he had d- me
towards restoring order, there was no merit attach-
ed to : in the execution of their
duty (a melenchollaserftle it was) they had been
guided by a wish to preserve the public 'ranquility,
'He would, however, much rather that the mischief
bad been seared to proceed, owing to his own
stipiness,ehan that :its ravages should have inflicted
unmerited censure upon the local exertions ot the
Authorities within the immediate scene of action.
Tire conduct of the Mizsistrates was .exemplary
throughout the county. With respect to the exer-
tions of thesTown Wigi'itrates, these were 'Mailed.
to the district. In considering, the Bill the House
must recollect iha_t-115,mischief must be put down
in some way or Oilier: The, efforts of the
Rates, though meritorious, were still found to he
ineffectual. file question was not an in-ulattd
one; it w-as not a question which -affected tt-e
ru.ttauticturing interests of that particular distric

hut the whole.of the manufacturers throughout the
kingdom. The outrages eudangered the public ,
tratiquility in a very great degree, and if by this
Bill men would for the future be deterred from the
coinm sion et similar crimes, the House in passing
the 13.1 i had done their duty. • He did not mean
to affirm the 1311 could give facility- of deiection.
The or making the offeece capital 'would have
the eff.-ct of deterring men horn crimes, then
the House would have a fair chance of gaie.
ing their ebjeel. When men "knew .publicly hat.
Parlialeeei 'regarded their offences in a heinous light
e—tte,t it. W: tie determination of the Executive
rower to send „ledges specially down,, and not watt
fot the ordinary Assizes, to try offenders, it was
.14;r to conclude the obje& would be accomplished. .
At all evens, it •was admitted on all bands that the
.evil el..:sts, but no Gentleman on the other side of
the House had, thengh he objeßed to the present
measure, come forward with a remedy for the evil:
Therefere; -ender these circueistaeces the House
would, he trusted, receive the present measure,
considet whether the rejection of it would not pro-
duce effeas which no one could- forste.
• Mr. BASTARD wished to know whether the law
would be better 'executed-by the present Bill ? He
thought that Government should not have suffered
, the riots to exist three or four months. In so do-
ing, the charge of supineness-would very properly.
attach upon them. He could not join in the praises
bestowed upon the Bight Hon. Secretary, because
it was his duty to have come immediately to Parlia-
ment. He hoped a Committee would be appointed
to inquire into the conduct of Government, and see
whether they hid done their duty. • '
Mr.WHITBREAD conceived, in allusion to what
had fallen from the last speakeri that no Aa of Par-
liament could invigorate the Secretary of State. He
could not have done his duty mere efficiently than
he had ckne. Notwithstanding this convidion in
his own mind, he should not be deterred trout voting
against the second reading ,of the Bill, because he
was satisfied the principle of it was objedionable.—
The preamble was also objed,ionable; but if both
the preamble and the body of the Bill were not so,
he should still deny that this,was the remedy. The
Statute Book teemed with capital punishments. So
long back as- forty years, the penalty of death for
offences was considered so lightly of, that the House
came to a resolution, that no Bill imposing .that
natty should be introduced without a previous Com-
mittee. For.that resolution the Public-were indebt-
ed to Sir William Meredith, who, in 177 t, being on
an Enclosure Committee, accidentally heard some of
the interested parties complain that some of the
peasants were refractory and. troublesome, and say
that the only way to get rid of them would .he by
hai ging a few. The Hon. Baronet was sp struck
by the injustice and wickedness of the observation,
that he moved, and the House adopted the resolu-
tion. Following up the
,resolution, he (Mr. W.)
intended to propose that it should be n?ade a stand-
in g order of the House, that no Bill should be in-
troduced having for its object the infliction of penalty
of death, without a previous Committee. The
Hon.-Gentleman contended, that with respect to
suggesting any remedy, the Committee which he
and his friends devisrd would. be the proper place
for that suggestieo, for they would trace the causes
of the evils, and consequently would be best enabled
to supply a remedy,. He should vote against the
Bill.
• Mr. FRANK.LAND contended, .that when, tholaw
was openly violated, it was the duty of the Legis-
lature to enact severer laws. If the parent •were not
obeyed, while mild and indulgent, who would-main-
tain that he ought not to change his countenance,
and express his indignation ? The law proposed
was a law not merely to prevent the breaking of
frames, but to protect whatever was most dear to us
in life.. When ("en lemen talked of sporting with
• the lives of (Ale rs, he would •ask, 'Who sported
with the lives of the people? Who neglected the
general safety ? and on whom must fall the awful
responsibility, if a remedy were not -promptly ap-
plied
to those alarming evils which were under their
consideration ? It the law were openly defied, and
force continued to be opposed to force, while they
al ere speaking there,• thousands 'of lives might he
swept away, and thousands might fall the viatims of
a too re Stied sensibility, and a mistaken feeling of hu-
in ;laity. -He denied that there were more crimes
visitetl wi• !t caeletl punishment in our code of laws
than in any other ; and adverting to what had fallen
from an Hon. Gentleman, who had contended that
eSpital punishment should only be inflided where it
was authorised by the Scripture, which it• was..said
.only jileitied it in one instance, where it is written
-",WhosoeVer sheddeth•man's blood, by man shall
his bioud he shed." He was surprised how any
inn could read Leviticus and Deuteronomy, and
be of such an opinion. It would be found, on
lotikintz into them, that they contained more ca-
Olaf 1 reisLeems ell.n any modern code of laws,
tied Eerope had been convinced that. it would
• ~be improper to adopt -a code so sanguinary.—
' In :he Scripture it would be found,- that bY the law
. the I taelites, he who " disobeyed his father
and u ould not hearken to his voice," was sentenced
to he led out and stobed till he. died. He then pro-
ceeded to strew, byanalogy, that exemplary punish-
m-m ought to be ietlided on these who opposed
the parental mandates of the Legislature. He con-
- eluded. giving if as his opinion, that it was incum-
bent- on the Legislature to express its disapprobation
it such outrageous proceedings in the strongest man-
Per, by enaeting that they should be visited with ca-
pital euteshment, and those who suffered in cense-.
(pence of the passing of such.a law, were to be re-
:vadat' eas the victims of their own illusions and
wee • tie et.
The House divided,

Yor the seLond reading
•Ag:arat it • -
Majority •

-- 77

The Bill was then read a second time, and on the
question being put that this Bill be committed to-

Sir S. ROM ILLY obserted, in answer to some re-
Marks that hdd been made on what had fallen from
that he had distindly given it as his opinion,
that a strong remedy ought to be applied, but he had
doubted it the measure proposed would furnish such
et remedy. He str,,ngly objected to going into the
Cotntni.tee so boon as was proposed, and wondered
what excuse the Secretary of Stare ,could otferfor