The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-05 00:00:00

might have been fee ccording t o the letter of the treaty
that would not have been acting in consistency
with the justice of the ..ase, because the power which
had separated, Belgium was favoured by England. For
England, therefore, to say, though she had favoured and In-
couraged the separating party, that, as the union between the
two countries was not at an end, she would declare r.erself free
from the obligation and arrangement she had nude with Russia
—for England to ant thus would have be n to make a dangerous
evasion of that which is just and right, and I world have had
no part in it.--( Hear, hear.) But she had not dine so.
Though she was free according to the letter of the old agree-
ment, she made a new one, and agreed to continue the pay •
ment of the interest on the debt. The real ground for con-
tinuing the payment was, that Russia had been guaranteed
the payment of the debt by England at the time of
the union between Belgium and Holland ; but the
union not being maintained, and England being
a party to the separation, she considered she was
in justice still bound to pay the interest of the debt. But un-
doubtedly, at the same time, the words of the convention were
the same as those contained in the resolution, and it was stipu-
lated in it that the payment of the interest on the debt should
be on condition of the general arrangements of the treaty of
Vienna being adhered to. Now, these words certainly were
introduced at the request of Russia to this country, in order to
show, that while Russia had departed in one respect from the
agreement, she was not, therefore, to be accused of bad faith in

.he matter referred to. Russia wanted the words insezted in

the treaty for the reason I have stated, and though England did
not desire their insertion, she agreed to them ; and, as a mat-
ter of good faith, under the circumstances, she conceived it
was her duty to continua the pay ment of the interest
of the debt.—( Hear, hear.) I must say, that with
regard to the spirit of the agreement, it would not be just to
take advantage of these words, Russia having faithfully oh.
served its stipulations. Ido think, however, that according
to these words, if we were di,posed to proceed upon their close
construction, we might say—" We made this agreement with
your sanction, you were a party to its provision, we will, there-
fore, take advantage of it, and refuse the payment of this
debt."—(Hear, hear.) Sir, that wonld be, as I have said,
conforming to the only interpretation of this treaty. Those
who have examined into the nature of national conventions—
the highest authorities that we could consult with regard to the
interpretation of Acts of Parliament, and the bearing of
treaties those authorities who are usually con-
sulted on those subjects, have told us that they
think that, according to the spirit of the arrange-
ment—according to the spirit of the convention—this
sum ought to be paid.—( Hear, hear.) State it as favourably
as you can for the Hon. Gentleman's motion, it is even then a
doubtful point on which, if you wish to take advantage, you
may claim that advantage from the words inserted in that con-
vention. According to my opinion, you would be acting
against the spirit of that convention, in order to take advan-
tage of a plea which, in a court of law, may be urged against
that construction, but which in the communications between
nations must not be used. In the consideration of this question,
I think we should only lower our position—l think we should
only deprive ourselves of that advantage which we now have if
we were to reduce this question to a transacti.ni of pounds,
shillings, and pence.—(Cheers.) I consider that in the late
transactions of Europe, although on more than one oc-
casion our wishes and opinions may not have been
complied with—our desires may not have been lis-
tened to—our protests may have been disregarded,
yet there does remain with us our moral strength,
which no power has been able to weaken, our national honour,
which no country has been able to tarnish..—( Great cheering. )
There are no treaties, either ancient or modern, in which it
can be imputed to inland that she violated their spirit .in
maintaining the letter of their laws.—(Cheers.) We are
ready in the face of Europe, however inconvenient some of
these settlements may be, to hold ourselves bound ;)), all our
engagements ; to keep the fame, and the name, and the
honour of the Crown of England unsullied—(Cheers)—to
hold that unsullied honour as our brightest jewel, and to take
measures that it be not tarnished. With that sentiment, Sir,

if I should ask my Noble Friend to go to the Court of Russia,
and to say, "To be sure you have violated the treaty ; to be
sure you have extinguished an independent State ; we
have allowed this to be done ; you will have no breath of war
from England; we will not arm for the purpose of restoring
Cracow; we will admit that State to be extinguished, we will
' admit her inhabitants to be reduced to subjection, we will
admit that their land of freedom shall be Inst to them for ever;
but this we will do, we have a claim against you of some
thousands of pounds, which we shall throw upon your shoul-
ders, and we think that way we shall revenge ourselves on you
for the infraction of this convention." I say we shall be thus
using language which does not become the position which
England has hitherto held, and which she shall in future
hold in the eyes of the world.—(Cheers.) I a,k you
therefore having thus stated, as shortly hs I could, my opinion
of this transaction, I ask yon not to come in this House of
Commons—which does not usually, without great provocation,
interfere in the foreign relations of this country—l ask you
not to come to any idle resolution, on which you do not intend
to act.—( Cheers.) I ask you not to lower this question down
to a mere question of money. I ask you not to estimate how
much this Russian stock is worth in the market. I ask you to
allow, as this House has hitherto allowed by its silent ac-
quiescence, the protest which the Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs has delivered, to remain in full force, as a declaration
on our part—a declaration which will have its full value, de-
pend upon it, with regard to future transactions, as showing that
we respect the faith of our treaties. Let us have it to say that
we have not studied only the interests of England in this mat-
ter—let us have it to say that we have looked to no interest,
either large or petty, concerning ourselves—let us have it to
say that we have only regarded the great interests of Europe ;
that we have observed that that settlement which put an end
to a protracted, expensive, and bloody war—that that settle-
ment should remain in its full force and vigour --(Cheers. ) We
have declared that sentiment to the world, and we trust that
the reputation which this transaction will meet with in future,
will induce all powers, howeves disposed to violate treaties, to
consider that they may meet wirtlie deserved remonstrances
and protests of England, whose character shall stand before the
world untarnished by any act of ours. —( Cheers.)
Mr. 11IONCKTON MILNES moved the adjournment of
the debate. The Hon. Member trusted that the Noble Lord
would allow the debate to take precedence to-morrow.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that as only two days in the
week were allowed for Government business, he hoped the
Hon. Gentleman would not ask him to give up to-morrow.
He did not think, however, that there was any motion of great
importance on the paper for Tuesday, and he would be very
willing to allow the adjourned debate to come on upon that day.
On the motion that the debate le adjourned till this day
week, _ _

Mr. T. DUNCOMBE expressed his surprise that the
Noble Lord should propose the adjournment till this day week,
when it had always been the custom of the Right Hen. Ba-
ronet opposite (Sir R. Peel) during last session when a debate
was adjourned to take it on the next night in preference to the
order of the day. The other night the Government had taken
the pains to prevent the formation of a House, and he thought
it would, on all accounts, be advisable to take the debate, tor,

in his opinion, no question could be brought forward in which
the honour of the country was so much at stake than the prin-
ciple which was involved in the resolutions of his lionouraJle
Friend.

Mr. M. MILNES could bear testimony to the fact, that the
Government had prevented the formation of a ll9use when this
question should have been brought forward.
Dr. I3OWRING asked whether there was any objection to
take the debate to-morrow, if the money was voted?
Lord G. BENTINCK said, that when this motion was
brought on, the Hon. Member himself was not in the House.
Mr. HUME said that it was true that when the clock
struck four he was opposite the church—( A. laugh)—but he
himself could not make a House, and he hoped the Noble Lord
would allow the debate to come on to-morrow night, as he
wished to get the matter off his hands—(Laughter)--as he had
other things which required his attention.
Mr. FERRAND said that as the question was whether the
debate should be adjourned till this day (Friday) or this day
week, he would move the adjournment of the House instead.
After a few words from Mr. J. FIELDEN, deprecatory of
this resolution,

Sir R. PEEL said that on many accounts it was advisable to
continue the debate to-morrow, but as the Government had
only two days ia the week to bring forward public measures, he
thought that it was but proper that a discretionary power should
be left in their hands to regulate the business of the House,
especially en their own nights. And this was the more
necessary, as they had now in hand great and important
measures, which largely affected the weltare of Ireland. Of
course if Government intended to bring forward its Irish
measure to-day, he should be quite ready to vote for the ad-
journment till Thursday next.
Mr. HUME said he should have no objection to adjourning
_

the debate till Tuesday next.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he had net any objection what-
ever to Tuesday. He hoped the Hon. Member would not
persist in the amendment, because it would bring the debate
to an irregular termination. He proposed to-day to take the
ordnance and navy estimates, and on Monday he should call
the attention of the House to a proposal of the Government
with regard to Ireland.
After a few words from Sir R. PEEL, who seemed to ob.
ject to the debate being adjourned to Tuesday.
Mr. FERRAND witkdrew his amendment.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said the Right Hon. Baronet the
Member for Tamworth had not answered his question, whether
while he was Minister the debate was adjourned as it was pro-
posed to adjourn this. Alinisters were shirking from the
discussion of this question, but they ought not to shrink from
it because public opinion was in favour of the first part of the
Noble Lord's speech, while he denied altogether the proposition
contained in the latter part of the Noble Lord's speech, that
the House ought not to come to any resolution upon the foreign
policy of the Government.
Sir ANDREW LEITH HAY considered that this was an
important question, connected not only with the finances of this
country, but with the liberties of Europe, and it was his im-
pression, that the sooner this debate was concluded the better.
He should, therefore, propose that the debate be resumed this
day (Friday).
Mr. DUNCOMBE seconded the amendment.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw. No division,
however, took place, it having been arranged that the debate
should stand adjourned till Thursday next.
FACTORIES BILL.
This Bill went through Committee pro forma.
The House resumed.
Mr. GREENE brought up the report, which was ordered
to be further considered on the 18th of March.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Half-past Twelve.

EXTENSIVE FIRE AT DEPTFORD.
On Wednesday morning, between twelve and one
o'clock, information was received at the various fire
stations, that a dreadful fire was raging at Deptford.
The engines of the Brigade and West of England Com-
pany, with a strong body of firemen, were dispatched 1
thither ; and on their arrival two houses in Flagon. row,
Deptford, were on fire. One by that time (a clothier
and draper's) was entirely consumed. The firemen
exerted themselves to the utmost, but by two o'clock
both houses, with their contents, were reduced to a
heap of ruins. The origin of the fire was unknown. It
appears that some time after the inmates had retired to
bed, a noise like the discharge of a gun was heard by
one of the neighbours, and almost instantaneously flames
shot through every aperture in the lower part of the
house. After a deal ,of trouble the inmates were
awakened, but they were unable to descend the stair-
case on account of the flames. A ladder having been
procured, they were rescued from the second floor with
A
nothing on but their night clothes. young man, at
great risk, forced his way into the burning n
buildi g
and snatched from the flames a coffin, cOntainingt—he
body of one of Mr. Webb's children, recently deceased.
The flames at one period extended completely) over the
entrance to Flagon-buildings, so thatn(neo the occu-
piers were able to escape. The excitement created by
this circumstance was truly distressing, Of ,ir being
nearly a dozen families hemmed in by the tire on one
hand, and a wall on the other ' • and the flames at the
same moment were travelling down the place, threaten-
ing destruction to life and property.- The parties having
set to work, they hurled down the wall at the end of the
court, and by that means they were enabled to escape.
The total damage is very considerable, but Mr. Webb is
fortunately butired.