The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-13 00:00:00

I National and Lancastrian schools which I visited, only pro-
, fess to teach the children reading, writing, and arithmetic.
The knowledge of the English language, natural history,
geography, physiology, and the history of their country, are
all excluded subjects. Upon none of those could I examine
the ehildren generally, because their teachers professed the
tots egnorance of the children respecting them. If occa•
donally I heard that Liverpool was an island, that Lance-
hire was one of the great towns of England, and that Asia
and America were chief countries of Europe, I was led to
-xpect this if I heard such grammatical inaccuracies as those
contained in the following answers to questions put by me
Them as is good goes to heaven The men as Was
gazing up into heaven'---' He drownded the whole world ;'
these were mistakes which the teacher did not undertake to
correct."
In these schools the scholars were poor and they
round that they went to them ignorant and from the
want of a proper system of training, that their evil
dispositions were developed by association, and that
they were frequently led into the commission of crime,
14 the little knowledge they were taught, was just
;efficient by association to induce them to commit
depredations. It would be almost superfluous
in him in that Court to refer to the
.vils which arose from a want of education, but his
Lordship and the gentlemen of the Court of Aldermen
.mho had held the office of sheriff; had, in that capacity,
and as magistrates, been in the habit of visiting the crimi-
nals of the metropolis, and had no doubt found that
Ignorance and wretchedness and crime went hand in
land. The judges referred to it; and Mr. Sergeant
Idams came forward with his monthly report lamenting
the amount of juvenile crime, and his inability to remedy
,he evil. This belonged more properly to the question
;f juvenile crime than to education ; but still
it was necessary that he • should refer to
.gnorance and crime, as they formed a part
,E his resolution. In the valuable report of the British
Foreign School Society for 1845, he found that one-third
,f the criminals of Berkshire could not read, that Cam-
idge and Stafford (and some of the aldermen were
connected with Stafford), one half could not read; in
Denbigh two-thirds were in a similar condition, and that
he half of those of Essex (one of the Council was
connected with Essex) were totally ignorant. In
Elereforcl, out of 385, cnly one could read well, and in
Sussex (one of those delicious sequestered agricultural
listricts), out of 877, 141 did not know their Saviour's
name, 498 knew it and no more, and then only in eon-
3exion with an oath; 179 had only a confused
lotion of his history, and only 1 in 14, or 59, had
he faintest glimmer of the Christian faith. They
')ad tried punishments of various kinds, in order to
Teter persons from the commission of crime, but they had
ignally failed, and he hoped that they would now take
more religious means, by the aid of education, to improve
the condition of those unhappy persons. As a proof of how
much more expensive the punishment of crime was than
is prevention, he might refer to the fact lately stated by
the magistrates of Liverpool, that they selected at random
14 criminals, whose ages varied from 9 to 14, whose ag•
.;•regate commitments amounted to 133 times, or 9} times
.ach, and who had cost the country 889/. 18.-889/. Is.
'or punishing 14 criminals, or between 70/. and 801. each,
shereas by a properly organised system of education,
,he common interest of the money would have educated
;0 ur 40 children.—(Loud cheers.) This money was
pent in punishing, not in reclaiming, because they had
•ach been repeatedly punished. Then the question
trose, would education deter from crime?—(Hear, hear.)
,Vas education the cause of crime, or was its want the
3ause? The argument that men of education had be-
tome criminals was no reason against the education of
he people. He granted that such things had happened,
mt.still thatdid not prove that it was not the duty of every
aan—the duty of the nation—to give every man the
neans of advancing himself in the world. Because a ma
was born poor was that any reason why he should not
rise in the social scale, that he should not have the means
)f elevating himself ? He contended that the most hi-
eartant means to that end was education. But how was
his to be done ? We see the necessity, but we are over-
•ome by the difficulties which surround it. Could they
overcome it by voluntary contributions which some people
considered the great panacea for the ignorance of the
she people? Two opinions prevailed—one that it was
,ufficient, and the other that it was not. But if Volun-
aryism was sufficient, how was it that one-third of the
.opuletion were in Cimmerian darkness. Certainly if it
was sufficient they must have sadly neglected their duty.
Voluntaryism was a beautiful system, but what did it
to ? It certainly contributed largely in various ways;
,at the voluntaryism of the State was far more impor-
ant; for aid by the State was but another form
•f contributing money from the same source.
Voluntaryism did not punish criminals, it did not fight
heir battles, it did not provide for the poor. When it
lid all these things, then he should consider that volun-
aryism would be enabled to educate the people.—(Cneers.)
!'here were probably many gentlemen in that Court,
"ho had not had any large sums of money expended
Ipon their education.—(Hear.) Yet there were many
vho was without education, so far as the school-
nester was concerned, listening and taking a part
11 the discussion of this great question. Thus
several who had been thus situated had become
.eprescntatives of the City of London ; but had theyre
named totally ignorant, they would not have been called.
;o fill so honourable a post. Was there a man there
who could not read and write ?—(Yes.) Some gentle-
nan said yes, but he never had the misfortune to meet

ith one who was so ignorant. Should any such be
,resent now, their support I am sure to have ; and should
.here be those (as I know there are) who have only
.eceived the merest rudiments of education, yet by
inremitting zeal and rectitude have become members of

his court—their support I confidently expect, because
tone can feel so keenly, or know so truly, ner describe
;o forcibly, the sleepless nights, the perplexities, the
.truggles of uneducated intellect striving under every
tisadvantage to assert its power, and the difficulty in
seizing the opportunity calculated to lift bins to a
oiperior station in society, all of which a
'ittle more judicious training would have ren-
lered comparatively easy. He could not under-
stand any means that could be brought to promote edu-
ation efficiently without the assistance of the State.
:;ould the State educate. was one question, and how edu-
!ate was the next. He could prove that the State
:ould educate. Even despotic nations bad shown that
hey could educate their people ; but a free country
wssessed an additional advantage, as
it could educate
.nd consolidate its power. In Germany and Prussia
.ducation was compulsory. In America it was not so ;
gut it was made very attractive. In America it was
stated as a general rule, that in the those States, in
vhich education was promoted by the Govern-
pl
nent, that the most
was done by the people ;
old that " wherever the Government extended
elucation that the
people were found anxious to
wail themselves of it;p where there now is little or no
egislative effort the amount of instruction is as small
is was compatible with any degree of diffusion of know-
edge." That fact showed more forcibly that the aid of
,he Government was required than anything he could
irge if he were to speak for a month. Those states
tsset states:—
ta:eisai:n—
-e,
vhich did not receive much aid were exceedingly
e.norant. In New York education was progressing
avourably, as one-fourth of the population was receiving
nstruction. The following was the state of education
islt
lila:
sa
variouschi
New York - 1 pupil to 3.9 inhabitants.
Con-1 to 4
necticut
New England - 1 to 5
Pennsylvania, New Jersey - 1 to 8
Illinois - to 13
Kentucky 1 to 21
For a man to have a child growing up without
;cling to school, was considered the greatest scandal
..hat could attach to him. But if all he
had stated was done in America, why could
.t not be done in England?—(Hear, hear.) It was said
mere that the assistance of the State would do away
with the independence of the people. Was it more
lestructive to independence to look to the State for
education, than to feel that we depended upon private
;county or public charity for it ? Many of those who
were educated :charitable institutions, found that a
'rind of stigma attached to them which often lasted to
he day of their deaths. He was reproached with it.
1' he State, therefore, was the proper and only means,
)y• whose aid a national system of education
ould be carried out, and the State was now
lesirous to do it.—(gear.) Ho regretted that one of
he greatest obstacles raised to the scheme was religion.
Religious difficulties were the only obstacles now placed
n the way of the Government.—(Hear.) The Episcopal
Church would have no education, unless it was placed
upon or supported by religion. The Dissenters would
mve no State support, and other seats opposed it for
'Millar reasons ; so that between them all the nation
would suffer, unless the Government had the determina-
tion to go fully and fairly into the question, in defiance
of such opposition as that with which they were me.
naced. The flowing tide would be stayed,
if not rolled backwards for fifty years.
Could it be for the interest of religion that
a scheme in which the happiness of the rising gene-
ration was involved should be destroyed ? It could not
be. Perhaps the best system to adopt would be a
system of perfectly secular education, making the parents
responsible for the religious instruction of their children,
not that he was opposed to any system of religious edu-
cation, but he was anxious to obtain knowledge for the
people almost on any terms.—(Cheers ) No I
• compu -
sion by the State could make a person change his reli-
gion. A remarkable instance of the tenacity with
which persons adhered to the religion of their forefathers
was to be found in th© last report on education in
Ireland. Several children of Roman Catholic parents
were educated in a Protestant school, and in the Pro-
testant religion; but when they left they went back
again to the Roman Catholic faith. He thought he had
maintained the principles which he enunciated at the
commencement of his address, and that the scheme of
the Government was likely to prove most advantageous
—it was the best and most cor,prehensive that could
have been adopted in his opinion
under the circum-
stances—(Hear, bear)—and a considerable degree of
excitement had been occasioned with respect to it. He
thought there had been a considerable degree of
cal •
crude, hasty, unreasonable amines, cast upon it.
If he bad any objection at all to the Government plan, it
was this—that it did not go far enough. But he wished
to have it tested as proposed, and no doubt the experi
ence which would be obtained Would enable them -
t
materially improve it. Some said that it was unconsti-
tutional, but he was at a loss to know what could be un-
constitutional in giving the representatives of the people
—their representatives—tbe control of education. Then
it was said to be sectarian. How could it be sectarian,
when it supported alike every
religious belief:, and
every religious denomination ? If it applied only
to the Established Church, it might be called
sectarian, and it would deserve the same character if it
applied to the dissenters alone; but as it applied to one
sect as much as to another, he thought it was about the
best scheme that could be adopted. "But it is inquisi-
torial," said a third party. Why? Wherever public
money was applied to a pu— h 1;
-0 purpose, there must be
public inspection. Private charities privately ad-
ministered, were too frequently seats of cor-

ruption; and public money, if privately expended,
might be expended improperly, and diverted to
corrupt purposes; but here Government inspection
would keep the fountain clear and prevent any mis-
appropriation for the future. But another party ob-
jected to it, on the ground of centralisation—centralisa-
tion the bane of Europe, the curse of France, and the
misery of the civilised world. Centralisation wielded by
a despot was unquestionably bad, as he might attempt to
curb the will and thoughts of his subject ; but centrali-
sation in the British Government was centralisation, in
point of fact, in the people themselves, for in the case of
these schools, inspection would tend to keep tie admi-
nistration of the funds pure and just, and compel
those intrusted with them, and to whom they were
paid to do their duty. With centralisation, if abuses
crept into the administration of the funds, they would
be immediately known at head quarters, and the person
whe had misconducted himself would be at once super-
seded. To his mind a centralisation of this kind pos-
sessed much beauty, and formed ono of the most im-
portant principles in the Government plan. Another
great advantage was the the establishment of Normal
schools, because by their aid they would be enabled to
do away with that obnoxious class to which he
had referred, who, without requisite knowledge,
pretend to teach the children of the poor ;
and in their place they would have men
with young blood in their veins, anxious for the work
and determined to perform it thoroughly, and not halt.
They would get rid of the half stupid, lame, blind, and
frequently immoral old men and women, who had set
themselves up as teachers —(Hear.) Besides, they
would know, if they discharged their dutiel properly,
that their old age would be spent in comfort. Much
had been urged against the plan which the Government
had proposed for the support of the schoolmasters when
they relinquished that employment ; but it was most
important that a teacher should know that he would
not be allowed to die from starvation when his
faculties failed him. Then again, he consi-
dered that instead of the whole scheme enabling the
Government to tyrannise over the people, that it would
have a directly contrary effect, and would place a great
deal more power in the hands of the people.—(Cheers.)
The highest class would at the proper time receive their
due reward as teachers, whilst the second class pupils
would become important public functionaries. Thug, in-
stead of Government situations being bestowed upon those
who had no claim to the gratitude of their country, they
would be given to those who had earned aright to hold them.
It was, as he had said, a very important matter that the
teachers of this country should take their proper position,
as he considered the teacher was more entitled to
respect than the warrior whose conquests over
foreign nations brought great advantages to this country.
The profession of the schoolmaster was higher than the
minister of religion, because the success of the subse-
quent labour of the minister depended much upon the
superstructure raised for him to work upon by the
schoolmaster. In every point of view be saw great
beauty in this scheme of education proposed by the
Government. Another important point was, than an
educated people were more easily governed than an igno-
rant people. With education, one might appeal to a
man's senses, to his intellect, and to his moral
feelings ; but without education one could not
appeal to him, save through the influence of mere
physical power. Corporal punishment would be
the way they could teach him to do his duty,
But by education one might appeal to his cultivated
faculties, and through them, possibly, soften and re-
claim. They should then see none of those extraordi-
nary proceedings, such as took place some thirty years
ago in the Midland Counties, where men associated and
went about in mobs to break machinery—those mar-
vellous instruments by which they were now supported
—as they thought it would interfere with their indivi-
dual labour—instead of now looking upon them as they
did, as the moat important advantages possessed by this
country. Within his own experience he knew at the
same period, that serving men in England would not
go into the service of a man who kept a thresh-
ing machine, because they said it took away their
labour, and the labour of the neighbourhood. At the
same time they could not get a man in Scotland to go to a
situation where there was not a thrashing machine—the
one class of men, he regretted to say, sunk in ignorance,
and the
whichother he was,hew desirousasproudtostah say, having
y m
ever the means
in meaEnsngof
education

land should possess. It was this that lave Scotchmen
the power of managing business, whilst the labouring
men in England and Ireland were compelled to be slaves,
not that they had less power, but because they had less
knowledge. A singular proof of this was to be found in
last week's Examiner :

" It is reported OH good authority that a fishing-smack,
having been successful in catching fish on the South coast,
and sending it up the country, the people from the interior
came down, seized the vessel, took the nets out of her, and
made a bonfire of them, alleging that if she continued to
catch fish at such a rate, there would be none for next year.
Forethought is not a common Irish habit; they seldom ex-
tend their views far beyond the present; and the care for
the next years' fish, and choice of present famine rather than
trench on it, was the most unlucky and thoroughly Irish
commencement of prudence that the mind of man could have
conceived."

It was probable that whilst he was addressing the coun-
cil, that there were hundreds of thousands rotting in their
gaols who, had the Government in years past faithfully
done its duty, would have been gaining an honest liveli-
hood, adding to their comforts and respectability, and
increasing the wealth of the nation. It was indeed a
lamentable thought, that much of this arose from the
opposition of those who entertained strong religious feel-
ings on the matter. He could not conceive anything
more extraordinary. They had all kinds of benevolent
and religious institutions; they had ministers in all
parts of the globe,—and each of those so-
cieties had his support according to his means—
but to give a tract to a child, or a bible to a man, with-
out affording them the means of understanding them,
was a gross insult ; it was as bad as binding a man's.
eyes and bidding him behold the glory and beauty of
the universe.—( Hear.) He trusted that education
would be taken as the basis of all endeavours to hu-

manise and Christianise the whole country, and that
every Englishman would feel that it was a part of his
birthright to be educated. It was a melancholy thing
to think that religious differences should fetter thought ;
but he confidently trusted that that Court would unani-
mously declare its opinion that no child within these realms
should be without mental enlightenment as a means to
moral and physical improvement. That was the first
motion he had submitted to the Court, and perhaps he
might not have discharged his tavk so well as others
more experienced would have done.—(Hear, hear.)
He had only to add his gratitude for the patience and
kindness with which they had listened to him. He
concluded by proposing the first clause of his motion,
and leaving the remainder of it to be dealt with as tho
council might think fit ; and resumed his seat amidst
general cheering.
Mr. T. WHITE seconded the motion. Ignorance wag,
in his belief, the most fertile source of crime. The
awful history of prisons proved that indisputably. Of
252,000 persons who were committed to prison in the
space of ten years, 229,000 were uninstructed, 1,085 had
gone beyond the elementary degree, and 22,000 could
merely read and write. It was said that such a fact

showed the ignorance of the vicious. He contended that
it proved the viciousness of ignorance. The backward-

ness of England in educating the population, was a dis-
grace to the country, and he hailed the Government
system as peculiarly calculated to remedy the alarming
evils resulting from such neglect.
Mr. PEIVTREBB said, that if Mr. Bennoch happened
to be longer acquainted with the court, he would
have found it to be unnecessary to give so long a
lecture upon education—he would have known that
the numerous motions made in it for the promo-
tion of educatien, had been supported most vigo-
rously and that its members were upon all occasions
anxious to have the deficiency supplied. He could not,
however, agree in the opinion that the deficiency was as
great as had been represented. All experience had
shown that the grossest exaggerations had been made.
In fact education existed nearly in proportion to the
extent of the population.—(Hear, hear.) If gentlemen
would take the trouble to enquire they would find that
numbers of schools were adapted to the accommodation
of more children than attended them. It might be
taken as a general rule that parents wished to have their
children educated. What then was the reason that
their schools were not crowded ? Why because of the
poverty which existed. The poor were unable to put
clothes on their children suitable to attendance at school.

The rate of wages was so low that even food could not
ash e
isnu
rpel ed
and.
there That
ee such
ul
dwhi tie the case
h itn,
anE Tat n
wd
alias well
duty of the Government to effect, if possible, an alteration
in the labour market, as infinitely better calculated to
benefit the population than their system of education.
An improvement in that respect would comprehend the
education of children. There was another important
effect to be produced by leaving it to the people to educate
themselves. He meant the preservation of their inde-
pendence.—(Hear, hear.) That independence which
sprung from the voluntary principle ought to be
cherished by every Government. In fact, a little more
justice and little less charity were requisite in the treat-
ment of the poor. Independence, which was the founda-
tion of all our enjoyments, was perilled by the interfer-
ence of the Government.
Deputy STEVENS was thankful for the educational
measure of the Government, and considered that the
voluntary principle would not sustain the least injury
by its operation. He disapproved of the proposition to
go up to the Queen. A privilege to be exercised upon
rare occasions, and could not be necessary at a time
when Government were evidently doing all they could
for the benefit of the people ; but he should most will-
ingly advocate a petition to the Houses of Parliament in
support of the measure which Government had brought
forward.

Mr. BOWER contended in favour of the Government
measure, and said that so much poverty would not be
in existence, if there were not an overflow of ignorance;
and that the more a man was enlightened the more
easily did be shake off all the prejudices by which mind
was affected under despotic authority. He hoped the
present Administration would be supported in their
liberal appropriation of funds, which might under other
guidance, be applied to the prosecution of war or other
vanities. _

Mr. R. TAYLOR remembered when Lord J. Russell
said in the Guildhall, that it was the intention of Go-
vernment to bring forward a system of education as
soon as possible, immense cheering proceeded from the
very persons who were now exerting themselves to
overthrow the measure.—(Hear, hear.) lie most warmly
approved of the whole system to be introduced by the
Bill, by which the voluntary principle would be vigo-
rously supported, and a due inspection would be made
into the manner in which the money was expended, by
men of first-rate qualifications. He trusted that the
Corporation of London, which was distinguished for its
love of civil and religious liberty, and which never failed
to give of its funds to aid the education of people of all
religions, would not hesitate in supporting the Admini•
stration in so benevolent an effort to serve the humbler
classes. An objection had been taken that the greaten

portion of the money, proposed to be advanced by the
Government, would go to the Established Church. It
was right that such should be the case. Zeal and acti-
vity would secure the largest share. The Government
were assailed on all sides by petitions got up agains
a plan, in carrying out which they deserved the
support of the whole of the community, especially of
those who were bound, from all previous experience, to
support them, but who now opposed them. Mr. Taylor
then described the narrow-minded views entertained by
the Church of England in former years, and contrasted
them with the liberality of opinion now generally ex-
pressed by that chinch, and abandoned by the old ad-
vocates of toleration, and concluded amidst loud cheers.
Mr. STACEY spoke merely in approbation of the
scheme of Government, and was delighted to see 141 r.
Taylor at his old work of labouring for the amelioration
of the civil and religious condition of mankind.—(Hear.)
Mr. B. S. Thrum's, a gentleman of the Church per-
suasion, rejoiced in advocating the measure of Govern-
ment, and spoke of the unbounded liberality of those
who were at the head of that religicn in educating the
poor.

Mr. W. LAWRENCE said that if the Government
had consented to leave the whole in the hands of the
dissenters, not one word would have been heard of this
opposition. He then commented upon the good ten-
dency of the measure in every respect.
1)r. LvNcrt was agreeably surpris' d and delighted at
seeing so fine a field day for the sup; ort of education,
and so little chance fur those who opi ocd it. lie con-
sidered that great prai,e was due to her Majesty's Mi-
nisters for propounding so noble a plan fur providing,
amidst the unexampled difficulties v, hich surrounded
them, the means of a sound moral education for the
childr, n of all classes of the community, without reap: Ct
to creed, sect, or party.—(Bear, hear.) They pursued
the proper course to ensure the happiness and to elevate
the condition of the labouring classes. The long and
exaggerated sentences which they heard about interfer-
ence, tyranny, poison, were mere bugbears, mere poetic
hyperboli, calculated only to frighten children.—(flear,
and laughter.) The present means of teaching the
children of the poor, and even of the middle classes,
were most defective. Why should a broken down butcher,
or baker, find a refuge in the character of schoolmas-
ter? Why should the dishonest insolvent be encouraged
to turn teacher of children upon the failure of his other
experiments, and cheat both parent and child with im-
punity ? That tremendous evil would be corrected by
the inspection, without which it was absurd to attempt
to carry out any proper system of education. There
was no intention to churchify or to proselytise the ris-
ing generation. On the contrary, the only effect or de-
sire was to place them in the road to truth and virtue,
and to make them useful members of society, whether
Protestants or Roman Catholics.---(Hear.) In Prussia
there were three millions of children annually taught by
the State. America was still more liberal. In Prussia
the commercial classes were taught English, French,
German, mathematics, physics, history, and geography ;
and the education of the poorer classes was proportion.
ably enlightened. The statistics cf education submitted
to the Court reproved their neglect. In despotic Austria
only 34,500/. were expended in forty millions of popu-
lation. The Government had taken the first step in the
right direction. They would impart to all the elements
of education which had at the present time become a
necessity, without cramming them with knowledge
only calculated to make our poor discontented with their
condition in life. Arkwright, Watt, Hunter, Faraday,
Cuvier, Haydn, Herschel, and a thousand others who
had risen from the lower ranks to eminence by perse-
verance, and who had left by their discoveries in science
an imperishable name, and made mankind their debtors,
were self taught, or had only the rudiments of education.
They were only taught to read and to write. Genius
accomplished the rest.—(Hear, hear.) He gloried to
see Mr. Richard Taylor, in his advanced years, witness
the triumph of the principles which that enlightened
veteran had from the earliest period of his life advo-
cated.—(Cheers.) He gloried, too, to see a Jew rise ill
the Court of Common Council, as a member of that body,
and an instance of the increasing liberality of the citizens
of London, to deliver sentimehts which did honour to the
head and to the heart of their new acquisition.—(Cheers.)
Mr. WIRE said that all arguments used in favour of
the Government measure were grossly fallacious, and all
the statistical details were just as fallacious. He con-
demned the interference of the State as not only wholly
unnecessary, but as calculated to strike a blow at the
independence of the people about whose education the
Government never threw away a thought until they had
educated themselves.—(Bear, hear.) It was the object
of the Government not to make the people religious, but
to keep them in subjection. Mr. Wire, in comparing
the population of other countries with those of England,
insisted that this country was more intelligent than any
other on the face of the earth. id
ea
of deprecated the
of giving to Government functionaries such a super-
vision as the inspectors were to have, and of their
establishing an indefinite influence and patronage, and
he contended that the whole plan was part and parcel of
the atrecious system of centralisation which was now
unfortunately so prevalent.

The Court of Common Council met yesterday, and
after a lengthened discussion upon the Health of Towns
Bill,

Mr. BENNOCH then rose and explained that, by a mis-
take the Court, and not the " debate," was adjourned at
the last meeting of the Council. Under these cireurn-
,tances, he might go over the ground he had &ready
traversed ; but he should not avail himself of that pri-
vilege, and should merely content himself by moving the
resumption of the debate. It was necessary to make
this explanation, in order that those who were
not present at the last meeting might know
exactly how the matter stood. He trusted, how-
ever, that no gentleman who had addressed
the Court on the subject-would do so on this occasion—
(Hear, hear ; and oh, oh)—as the adjournment of
the Court, and not the " debate," was simply an acci-
dental circumstance, as the person who prcposed it was
favourable to the motion.
Mr. WUITE seconded the motion, which was put by
the Recorder, and carried.

Mr. DE JERSEY rose to oppose the motion. He said
during the time he had held a seat in that Court, he had
opposed many of the sentiments enunciated by Mr.
Wire; but he confessed he agreed with him in his views
with respect to the scheme of education, which the Go-
vernment had proposed. It had been said with respect
to manycorporate bodies, that they interfered with mat-
ters with which they were not called upon to trouble them-
selves, whilst they neglected their own affairs—they
mixed themselves up in political matters, and
became as a matter of course political hinges. He,
therefore, thought the Corporation had stepped out
of its way in this discussion. He fully admitted
the necessity of education; but scarcely two men
could be found to agree as to the best mode of carrying
it out. If the
.Hon. Gentleman who moved the adop-
tion of the resolution, wished to know what the Cor-
poration had done for education, he might find it in
their deeds—as they had voted large sums, year after
year, for the promotion of education, and not excluding
Roman Catholics and Dissenters froM a participation in
the funds. That man who wished to do away with the
local management of schools was no friend to civil and
religious liberty. The resolution, which was avowedly
in favour of the Government plan, asked them to come
'to a decision " that education in Great Britain and Ire-
land was lamentably deficient ;" but there were " many
good and true " men, who considered that the systems
of education taught in this country were not deficient.
—(Hear, hear.) He wished the two countries had been
separated in the resolution, because the people of
Ireland, owing to their distressed condition were not
so susceptible of education as the people of this country,
as they were " torpid and apathetic." Mr. Bennoch
quoted France, America, Prussia, and Belgium as coun-
tries in which Government schemes of education had
been most successful. With respect to France, a gentle-
man named Nortley stated that about 700,000 children
were receiving primary instruction, which he found to
be worthless and deficient in morality, and that the
schoolmasters were far from skilled in their profession.
In America the education was a national thing—a de-
mocratic system of education—which sas similar to the
system which this Government proposed to adopt, but
nevertheless America upheld slavery—that he supposed
was one of the distinguishing features of the Government
plan.—(oh I oh I) America upheld a distinction be-
tween black and white, and yet they were told to
look to America as an example of the success of
a Government system of education. They should, how-
ever, look to the result. Then tho mover objected
to the voluntary system. Why, what had it done?
Look at the tens of thousands—he might say the mil-
lions who had been educated and were now being edu-
cated by voluntary aid! All the great measures which
had been adopted in this country were indebted to vo-
luntarism. The Corn-laws which were once upheld by
the House of Commons, were abrogated through the
voluntaty exertions of individuals.
Mr. BENNOCII denied that be did; he was in favour
of the voluntary system, conjoined with aid from the
State.

Mr. DE JERSEY could point to numberless instances
in which voluntary exertions had accomplished great
results. Why, the Bible and Missionary Societies had
done more for education at home and abroad than the
Government could do, with all its machinery, in the next
half century. From the official report of a gentleman
with respect to the state of the prisoners confined
in Parkhurst, he found this result stated with respect to
900 prisoners ; that one might be apt to imagine that
out of that number there would not be more than 100
who had received any education, but what would they
say if the very reverse was the ease, and that not more
than thirty bad not received any education, and that the
rest had—the great porportion of them in Sunday
schools. • That all this crime was solely owing to igno-
rance, was in his (Mr. de Jersey's) opinion a fallacy.
Then, was education to be compulsory or not ? Mr.
Bennoch's resolution might be taken both ways. To
make it compulsory, would be monstrous. 'Why, the Dor-
setshire labourer with Bs. or 9s. a week, who had
n a
dshoaolf-a-s
dozen' children, would tell them thfiaetlhdes.courldovneorttyaffwoards to
sendthey
couldth e m
eskeheopo ls,toaesetsheiny
the
eust go to work as
the root of all this, and they must feed and clothe the
poor, before they could think of educating them. Let
them begin at the beginning, and not ad opt laws which
could not by any pmibilitY
be carried out. It was
nhoist
chjiulsdtriecen,
wthenoffheer poorcoauld man education for
But on the other hand, if .t
w noet send them to school.
l
could state as a fact, that whilst
an
e inn
Ito
mt
ec
no
sme
proportion
not,
e
si•nt their children to school, a
and would not if they could. One school number ao
in Manchester,
for instance, Ns anted scholars, whilst in London he had
endeavoured to get scholars for a school in his neigh-
bourhood, but he had not succeeded. Something in the
shape of inducement was required ; but if the Dorset-
shire labourer could not send his children to school, the
Government would not hesitate to tax him for the edtt-
' ration of others : that was not the justice which the
people of this country had a right to expect. There was
not It body of Dissenters throughout the country who
bad not a school, and they had done far more for educa-

don than the Chureh, who, finding their system failing'
now sought the aid of the State ; but Dr. Hook was of
opinion that the Church should educate the children of
its members. He denied the correctness of the doctrine,
that "if education was good for one, it was good for ail."
Why, where would they stop ?—(A voice, "Nowhere at
all.") Would they carry the higher branches of educa-
tion to the plough tail ? because, if the principle were
admitted, all must be placed on an equal footing with
respect to education. They could not draw a line of de-
marcation.—(Cheers.) It was a most dangerous doctrine.
when so many prejudices prevailed as there did vat the
question of education, it would be almost impossible to
carry out one general scheme ; and if the Dissenters did
not avail themselves of it, they would be t. zed for its
support. The members of the Church, and not the
great mass of the people, would he benefited by it. The
Church eon:pia:red that the buttresses which supported
it were being removed one by one ; but, in his opinion,
this scheme would add another to the fabric and
strensthen it. The speaker then referred to the For-
law, but he was called to order, and some remarks, of a
rather personal nature, followed, between several of the
members.
Mr. LAWRENCE who had rather ha.tily exclaimed
"Question 1 Q lestion !" claimed a right to do so when
he thought a speaker bad said enough, and cammenced
trespassing on the time of the Council. In the Hoose of
Commons, the cry of " Question " frequently eetsled the
tun stion.—( Laughter.)
Ai other GEserhystsits obgcrved that those in favour of
the proposition must submit to such observations if they
thought proper to introduce such glaring motions.
After some lits le scrimovy,
Mr. DE JERS.EY proceeded to say tkat despotism was
prevented by local influence, and that the Governinert
:sated improperly when it sought to mime polise those
local interesta, He was opposed to Puy system of
education which would prevent 'len, as the Government
scheme would, from being independent.
Mr. ANDERTON said the question before them was
whether they did or did not agree in the scheme of
education proposed by the Government. Now he con-
fessed he was much surprised that any opposition had
come from the gentleman who had just sat down, as at
all seasons and on every opportunity he had strenuously
advocated the education of the people. Ile had even
solicited their aid for schools with which he was con-
nected ; but now they found him doing all be could
to destroy the fabric he had assisted to raise.—
(Hear, hear.) There never was a greater fallacy
in the world than this uttered by him—that the pro-
posed plan would destroy the principle of voluntary sub-
scriptions for the maintenance of schools,_ because the
object of the Government was to aid and assist these
schools, not solely to maintain them.—(Hear, hear.)
Why, the Lord Mayor and the Aldermen, and, in fact,
all of them, had been frequently called upon to aid by
subscriptions schools whose funds were inadequate to
maintain them; in fact it was but yesterday that the
Lord Mayor attended a sermon in St. Sepulchre's, which
was preached in aid of a school in that parish, which
educated about 100 children, but which, from removals
and other causes, had got 1204 in debt. They all knew
the great exertions Mr. Wire had made on behalf of
education, and that he took great interest in a school in
his neighbourhood, that he was the schoolmaster, and, in
fact, a father to the children.—(Roars of laughter.) This
school was supported on the voluntary principle ; but if
the funds :ell off, what objection could he have to apply
to the Government and say " The school is in want or
funds. I can educate more children. Will you give me
funds to accomplish so desirable an object ?"—(Haar,
hear.) To talk of education destroying the indepen-
dence of man was absurd. In his opinion education

nrLietrenllidependent —Clear, hear.) Give the slave
education and he becomes a free and independent mate-7
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman was about to refer
to the circular issued by the Government, when ho was
interrupted by
Mr. WIRE, who said that it was not an authorised
document—it had not been yet agreed to.. It might be
materially changed before it was adopted. It had even
been changed five times since first issued.
ANDERTON said Mr. Wire had opposed the
Church, but now he found the Church becoming more
liberal, he turned and said, " No; we will have nothing
to do with you. This is a scheme supported by tha
Church, and what is supported by the Church cannot be
good, and therefore we will have nothing to do with it.'
But if the Church had opposed the plan, no doubt the
Dissenters would have favoured it. Where was the
objectionable power of the Government? "The Com-
mit:ee of the Schools are to have the power of dismiss-
ing the master." Surely, there could be no objection to
that. They were also empowered to select the books,
and the mode of discipline to be adopted. Why, what
more could be required?—(Hear, hear.) "He would
have no authority to dictate what should be done in the
management of the school, and would not be allowed to
offer his advice, except wished to do so," by the School
Committee. What honest Dissenter could object to
that? No honest Dissenter could.—(Hear, hear, and
cheers.) If they were sincere in their desire to bee the
people educated, they would not oppose one of the
greatest blessings ever proposed by a Government.—
(Hear, hear.) Mr. De Jersey said in his statement, that
they had room for 400 children; but that they could nit
get the requisite number to attend. But this might
arise from various circumstances. Perhaps the masters
were unable to teach them; that was one great failing,
as a great proportion of the masters in these schools
wanted teaching as mach as the scholars. In 1834
' the report of the British and Foreign School
Society stated that 150,000 children were then growing
up in.
London without education ; and that within a
radius of a quarter of a mile. In the neighbourhood of
Barbican, there was a population of 18,000, out of whom
the number of children attending day schools did not
exceed 300.—(Hear.) This was in the city of London ;
and the voluntary sytem had not been able to keep pace
with the number of children wbo stood in need of educe •
thin. A meeting was held in the hall, under the auspices of
Alderman Johnson, in order to raise 5001 for a school ;
after it an application was made to the Court to defray
the expenses, or that they might not be taken out of the
fund collected, end Mr. De Jersey was in favour of that
motion.—He hoped that they would pass an unanimous
vote in favour of the Government plan. The Govern-
ment would not be thought to do their duty if they
flinched from carrying it out.—(Bear, hear.)
Mr. Cant said, when he was told that there were
150,000 children in London without education, he would
not be a barrier altogether to the plan of the Govern-
mPnt. It was the duty of a paternal Government to
educate her children, but he was opposed to soy system
of education which partook of a compulsory character;
he did not, therefore, decidedly object to the scheme.
There were, however, several details which might be
materially improved.—(Hear, hear.) Ho was glad to
find the Government earnest at last with respect to the
education of the people.—(Eleer, hear.) In his opinion
the voluntary system was inadequate to educate the
children of this country as they ought to be educated.—
(Hear, hear.) A great deal had been done in some dis-
tricts; but, speaking generally, he considered that
the voluntary system had proved a failure, and
that some aid should be received from the State.
especially as the greater proportion of these schools (and
he had considerable experience in them) were not sup-
ported as they ought to be, and therefore no taxation
would be more palatable than one which was raised for
educating the juvenile mind. Besides the Church of
England and the Dissenters, there were a large number
of children who belonged to neither the one or the
other, who should be induced, as much as possible, to
avail themselves of the education which would be afforded

to them.
Mr. PRENDERGAST considered that the Government
would be happy to avail themselves of any suggestions
from any quarter, which could render the system they
were about to carry out more effectual ; and with that
view they had, no doubt, so extensively circulated the
1 minute which had been agreed to by the Council. It
certainly did not partake of a bigoted or sectarian
character. For every sixpence to be given by the
Government one shilling must be raised by
voluntary
subscriptions ; and no persons could receive it for
schools with which they were connected unless they had
given their shillings—(Hear)—and the Government, in-
stead of wishing to take the power from the people in
this matter, had put the whole power in their hands,
thus showing that they had the highest confidence in
saidtheythe hwaorndliti
the voluntary principle. Mr. De Jersey, and others who
ohpopoodstedo Governmentpthroeposeabett
er plan,plan hadtheyt nothad
one day be able to accomplish all that was required,
although they admitted that as yet the voluntary
prin-
ciple had failed. But hew much crime, which
might be stayed, would occur in the interim ?
The members of the Established Church had come
forward in the most handsome manner, and those
who opposed the system which the Church
supported, seemed to do so on this ground—that the
Church could save more shillings than they could, and
therefore they would have nothing todo with it.—(ffear.)
Mr. Baines's argument that the Government Inspec-
tors would exercise a kind of despotism over the pupils
and the teacher, and combine .
together to prevent the
teacher from obtaining a situation elsewhere if he had
the misfortune to lose his situation, was the most mon-
strous he ever heard. Wby they had no power to dis-
miss, and it was unlikely that they would concert
together to deprive a monitor of his 101. a-year, or for
the purpose of crushing a teacher because he would not
succumb to them.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Baines' book
the worst he had ever read.—(Cheers He had b was
een a
teacher in a Sunday-school, and he found that what
was taught one Sunday was
children by the next—or that in fact
forgotten by the
act they were more,
ignorant—(Cheers)—thus showing
h the importance of
day schools in connexion with
the young people: confined iTt em. He was afraid that
in \elnga te were. but a sample
of the great body of
Ile had just returned f uneducated children
. in this country.
that those who were markedrom tihne t
hc circuit, ceual te,nadn d hads found
d.
but imperfectly, were, for all purposes, as arunisnsrterauettnes
as if they had received no education at all. The Go-
vernment wanted to obtain good schoolmasters, and to
put a atop to the nonsense taught in many of the schools.
A 8 a proof of ignorance amongst persons moving in a
higher sphere of society, he could state that out of eight
coachmasters who came to him as a deputation on some
business, two could not write. He was not one of those

who considered that the Government had propounded
this scheme in order to help their fortunes at the elec-
tion, which was so close at band ; but that they had
brought it forward for the sole purpose of benefiting the
people.— (Hear.)
Mr. ASHURST considered that the Established Church
bad ever taken a most reprehensible part against tha
education of the people. Those in favour of civil and
religious liberty would be as desirous that Atheists
should enjoy their opinions without molestation; but if
the Ministers and the Legislature were of that way of
thinking, and appointed Magistrates to dispense the laws
of a similar opinion, would they think that such
.1.1.
Government as fit to be intrusted with the
_nrilgiti
meat (.f the education of the whole peoplePt
not.YetpathtreoGnaorve,rnmsehnicthwereitto
A past experience proyed?
would abuse. Whit hadbe trusevidedenwt thth im-
mensee