The Sun.
London, England, 1841-09-25 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF CO7IIMONS, Sept. 24.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour.
Lord Stanley, for North Lancashire ; Capt. Gordon,
for Aberdeenshi-e ; and Mr. Pringle, for Selkirk, took
the oaths and their seats.
CORN-LAWS.
Mr. THORNELY presented a petition from the Mi-
_
tnsters and Congregations of the Presbyterians of Chester,
praying the House not to separate without taking into
their consideration the state of the laws regulating the
importation of corn.
Mr. WIGNEY presented a petition from the Minister,
Members and Congregation, of Union,street Chapel,
Brighton, to the same effect.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Sir GEORGE GREY moved that the consideration
of the report of the Private Bills Committee be post-
poned to Wednesday next. It would be-necessary for
the Committee to hold another sitting to consider of
certain matters which would be submitted to them,
and it would be more convenient for the House to con-
sider the whole subject together.—Agreed to.
Mr. WARLEY presentd a petition from an indi'

dual named Inglis, -complaining of the degradation of the
public service consequent upon the squandering of the
public money by the Lords of the Treasury,and pray-
ing fur an inquiry into their conduct. Also a petition
from John Joseph Stockdale, expressing the petitioner's
regret and horror at having heard that persons had died
in this country actually from want of food, and praying
for an alteration in the Poor- law Amendment Act.
Mr. M. PHILIPS presented a petition signed by
4,000 inhabitants of Manchester, praying the House for
the abolition of the Corn-laws ; and that it would be
pleased not to delay inquiry into the miserable condi-
tion of their starving families.
• Mr. COBDEN presented, a petition from 692 inhabi-
tants of Nottingham, praying for a repeal of the Corn-
laws ; also a petition from a Baptist congregation in
Yorkshire, to the same effect ; and another from Hol-
born, praying the House not to prorogue till the dis-
tresses of the country were taken into consideration.
ELECTION PETITIONS.
The SPEAKER informed the House that he had re-
ceived a Report from the Committee of Contested Elec-
tions, to the effect that the recognizances entered into
upon the petitions against the returns for Shrewsbury
and StaflOrd were unexceptionable.
NEW WRIT.
On the motion of Sir T.-FREMANTLE a new writ
was ordered to be issued for the election of a Member to
serve in Parliament for East Retford, in the room of
the Hon. A. Duncombe, who had accepted the office of
one of the Grooms ;n Waiting to her Majesy.
Mr. WILLIAMS presented a petition from Geo. W.
Buller, of Doctors' Commons, praying the House would
be pleased to lay on a property tax, and repeal the taxes
on malt and sugar.
Colonel SII3THORP moved for a return of all the
commissions issued by the late Government since the
last return made, pursuant to the order of the House of
Commons, on the. first of May, 1838.—Agreed to.
Mr. EWART moved for a return of the number of
committals, convictions, and executions, for murder in
the five years dating from 1820. The Hon. Member said
his object was to show the effect of the mitigation of
the criminal law.—Agreed to.
Lord SANDON moved for a return of the amount of
duties paid on Canadian timber in the year ending
February, 1841.
The CHANCELLOB of the EXCHEQUER gave
notice that on Monday next he would move a resohitior
relative to Exchequer Bills.
WEST INDIA PACKETS.

Mr. HODGSON wished to know whether it was the
intention of the Hon. and Gallant Member for Falmouth
to renew the motion of which he had given notice, for a
Committee to inquire into the Report of the Commis-
sioners appointed to select the best station fbr the West
India packets.
Captain PLUMRIDGE said his constituents were de-
sirous that every information should be offered them, no
matter what Goverrment was in office.
MANNING OF THE ROYAL NAVY.

Captain BERKELEY begged to call the attention 01
the Hon. Secretary to the Admiralty to a resolution
of which he had given notice with respect to the efficient
manning of the navy. He wished to know whether it
was the intention of the present Board of Admiralty to
issue orders that in future none of her Majesty's ships of
war should be sent to sea without a fixed and full com-
plement of men?
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said the subject was at
present under the consideration of the Board of Admi-

iaity. The principle of having a fall and efficient com-
plement of men on board vessels of war was one of which
he entirely approved ; at the same time the Hon. and
Gallant Member must see that, consistently with the
public service, it was impossible for him to pledge him-
self to the extent to which that principle would be
applied.
Captain BERKELEY then begged to withdraw the
motion of which he had given notice upon that subject.
He begged also to ask whether the Hon. Baronet was
aware that Admiral Stopford had made application to
the late Board of Admiralty to renew the system of
giving prize money to the seamen and marines employed
at Algiers and Naverino—whether any answer had been
returned, and whether it was intended to carry the re-
commendation into effect?

Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said the application had
been referred to the present Board of Admiralty, and
was under its consideration.
ROYAL GARDENS BILL.

On the motion for the third reading of this Bill,
Mr. VERNON HARCOURT said he wished to ad-
dres'.; a few words to the House in reference to a
statement contained in some public documents respecting
the price of Russian corn, He had taken the liberty of
inquiring of his Noble Friend, the late Secretary
of State for the Foreign Department, whe-
ther he could give any explanation to the House
respecting a statement in those papers which had been
communicated to the House under his direction, that a
single Russian province could produce 38,000,000 quar-
ters of grain. His Noble Friend agreed with him that
there must be some mistake. He (Mr. V. Harcourt)
had inquired at the Foreign-office, and found, from a
communication with the Under Secretary of State,
that not only was such a statement made,
but that within the last two days aletter had been received
from the Consul at St. Petersburgh, whose attention had
been drawn to the subject by seeing the speech of his
Noble Friend upon the Address, in which it was stated
that 38,000,000 quarters of grain were produced in the
Province of Tamboof. He intimated to his Noble
Friend his conviction that there was a very
considerable arithmetical mistake in the calculation,
and that whereas it was there stated that the corn could
be brought to the market at St. Petersburg at a price of
from 13s. to 145., it was obvious that the calculation
there given in Russian money and in Russian measures,
when reduced to the English standard, would give a re-
sult differing from that made in the paper no less
than 100 per cent.; that the cost would, in
fact, be 275. or 28s. Although the Consul
voluntarily confirmed his orieinal statement with regard
to the:production of corn, he admitted the arithmetical
mistake, and that the cost in the market would be what
he (Mr. V. Harcourt) had stated.
The SPEAKER reminded the Hen. Member that the
question before the House was the third reading of the
Royal Gardens Bill.—(Hear.)
Mr. V. HARCOURT thought the present was the
most fitting opportunity to make the statement, and it
showed the importance of making due inquiry before
° leeislating upon the subject of the Corn-laws.
Sir R. PEEL said the mistake referred to by his
llon. Friend had occurred at the Foreign-office. The
statement made by their Consul at Petersburgh was, that
a certain Government in Russia produced 38,500,000
quarters of wheat, but that statement had been commu-
nicated to him, and he stated that he had some reason to
question its accuracy. He further stated that the price
at which he originally said the wheat could be sold in the
market of St. Petersburgh, namely, 13s. or 14s. a quar-
ter, was a mistake, and that the price should have been
somewhere about double that sum. He should have all
the documents in reference to the subject laid before
the House.

Mr. ITARFORD complained that the Bill would take
away all privacy from the Royal Palace; even now there
was less ground attached to the Palace than was attached
to any private gentleman's house who was possessed
of 1,000/.

After a few words from Mr. WILLIAMS, the Bill
was read a third time and passed.
The Frog-more Lodge Bill was read a third time and
passed. _

The Population Payment Bill was read a second time,
and ordered to be committed on Monday.
RETIRED ANNUITY TO VICE-CHANCELLORS
BILL.
On the order of the day being read for receiving the
Report on this Bill,
Colonel SIBTHORP rose and said, that the proposed
m exorbitant. He
lavnonuukiltynoto,r h34oeover,l. adppiNeiadreedthetollohuise on the subject, as
he felt assured it would be useless to do so.
Mr. EWART coincided with the Hon. and Gallant
Colonel in thinking the proposed annuity too large, and
he would propose that the sum of 3,0004 should be sub-
stituted for 3,500/.
Mr. WILLIAMS seconded the proposition.
Mr. EWART moved as an amendment that 3,0001.,
instead of 3,500/., be the retiring pension of the Vice-
Chancellor. _ _

.........____.
The_ CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER con-
ceived the duties of the Vice-Chancellor to be equally
arduous and important as those of the other Judges,
to whom a retiring pension of the same amount
as that now proposed to be given to the Vice-Chancellor
was granted. It was not fitting that any difference should
be made between the emoluments of the inferior Judges
and those of the Judge who filled the important office of
Lan the Chancellor
Vice-Chancellor.
considering the state of
Mr. WAKLEY said he should lik.eAtoccaokrrinsdoeiwnfgorwtoshutehcrhee
theyarg
argument
mweonutl do beginfthe Rtiog
Right
l i practiseon. ecGoennotre
that there was
that his Hon. Friend opposite
the
theefi n extravagantaEnx ceehs eoeqfxupeti
this
Ida
ic
tnouue crneet. srsyi
Now,t ycwonous?lldod
enns alwaysg
no money to bestow, but that, in fact, they had got money
to borrow, he thought the sum proposed_ was preposte-
He (Mr. W.)
r omurs.lyEhwiagrho
hilaedwnaost sorry
lopOsed a lesser sum.
thought that 2,000/. a-year would be enough for a retiring
pension. It would, indeed, be a profuse sum, considering the
bankrupt state of our finances. He was sorry the pre-
sent Administration had not made
a beginning on the
subject. The last Session they were all committed to
the sum, and no blame was
ifdue to the present Adminis-
Parties would thus
to ask which of the
they did not hold
experieiice he must say that be
tgt
Irovaoti !Iwo nasthte ne couples,a, vttohl
reesatsp:u. b
iiite Butw
wasoul
dt
said
the
edtglyii
nof
out high expectations they would command groat talent.
From his (Mr. Wakley's)
found great difficulty in meeting with a barrister who made
three or four thousand pounds a year by his profession.
He was ilayour of rewarding the Judges amply for their

services, Lut he thought the sum proposed, cOnsidering the
amount of their salary, was too high for a retiring pension
The Lord Chancellor's salary was 14,0001., and his re-.
tiring allowance was 5,0001. a year. Why, such a sum
was really preposterous, considering the miserable con-
dition of the working classes. The necessaries they eat
were taxed to pay those enormous salaries, which
was a reflection upon Parliament. Their bread,
their sugar—all that they consumed, was taxed,
to make up these enormous salaries. He did hope,
although he did not expect, the House would adopt the
Suggestion, trifling as it was, as an indication of some-
thing to be done in future.
R. PEEL said the House was well aware of the
circumstances under which the Bill was proposed
by the late Administration, for the purpose of pro-
viding some remedy for the enormous evils
arising from the accumulation of business in the
Court of Chancery—evils accompanying the denial
of justice, and arising not from the neglect of the judicial
authorities, for they were admitted to be most competent
in the discharge of their duties, but from the impossibility,
of their transacting the extensive and complicated busi-
ness of the Court of Chancery. He was quite sure that
it would be the worst economy to make incompetent officers.
Unless they procured from the bar two men of great
eminence for the discharge of these duties, they would
not be properly performed. The Hon. Gentleman said he
never knew a lawyer who was worth 3,0001. or 4,0001. a
year to the public ; but, at the same time, he ad-
mitted the importance of procuring men of high talent
and
was on
learning to fill these offices.
It on ihe second point this proposal was made by
the late Government, for if the Judges were inferior to
the Advocates, their decisions would not carry weight
with them, and the consequence would be a temptation
to appeal, and the procrastination of justice. This re-
retiring allowance was the same as that of the Puisne
Judges. He (SirR.P.) had often heard complaint made
of Judges retaining their seats after they became in-
competent to discharge their duties, and he had heard
it frequently stated that it would be a safer economy to
fix such an amount of salary as would induce
Judges voluntartly to retire from the bench before
they became incompetent. It was difficult of
course on a proposal for the reduction 01'
300/. or 4001. a year to reason upon principle ; but, on
the whole, he believed this subject had been well consi-
dered. He had heard it stated that the salary was hardly
sufficient to insure men of the first eminence, but still
he had positively refused to make any increase to the sa-
lary proposed by thelate Administration, since he believed
it to be a just one, and he trusted it would be found
sufficiently liberal to effect this object. It was on these
grounds, and not because it had been proposed by the
late Government, that he had adopted it.—(Hear.)
Sir J. EASTHOPE said that no person could feel
more deeply for the distresses of the people than he did,
and as the representative of constituents who were suf-
fering from the most intense distress, he felt he should
not be doing his duty if he did not insist upon the most
rigid economy. But he was convinced that his constituents,
notwithstanding the intensity of their sufferin,rs—not-
withstanding the depth of their distress—would despise
such paltry economy as that, and would never seek to
remedy their own distresses by rendering less efficient
the administration of justice. That was nut a proper
system of economy. It was not of those expenses that
the people complained. What they complained of was,
that they had not the free use of their industry.—(Hear.)
It was of another species of taxation that they com-
plained—a taxation levied not for any services perform-
ed to the State—from which they derived no benefit, and
which, while it fettered their industry, deprived them of
their daily bread.—(Cheers.) The reduction proposed
was one which, while it could do no good in alleviating
the distresses of the country, might do mischief by in-
terfering with the administration of justice. The true
economy was to repeal those laws which tended to fin-
poverish the people and which produced distress and
dismay.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw.
. The House divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment.
Against it.

150

Majority against it

-94

The House then m:ent into Committee on the Ad-
ministration of Justice Bill ; Mr. GREEN in the Chair.
Clauses up to 16 were agreed to with a few verbal
amendments.
On clause 17 being put,
Mr. WATSON wished to know whether any altera-
tion was to be made in the appellant jurisdiction of
the Court of Chancery. As it at present existed,
it was extremely inconvenient, as the appeal was
now from • one Judge to the Lord Chancellor.
Snbjects of appeal were now decided by one Judge. He
(Mr. Watson) thought that three out of the five Equity
Judges should be constituted a court of appeal, to which
decisions would be from time to time referred. The
great expense consequent on appeals to the House of
Loris would be thus put an end to, or at least dimi-
nished. He trusted that his Learned Friend (the Attor-
ney-General) would introduce a clause to that effect in
the present Bill.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL was not prepared to
deny that there was room for important improvements
in the appeal department of the House of Lords, but he
begged to state distinctly that lie had no intiAltion
whatever to introduce any clause of the nature men-
tioned by the Hon.. Gentleman opposite into the Bill.
It would be hasty of him to attempt, at present, to legis-
late on the subject. ,
The clause was then agreed to.
The clauses up to 54 were agreed to. •
Clause 44 was struck out.
On Clause 55 (the Compensation Clause to the Hon.
Mr. Scarlett) being read,
Mr. WARD said that the present, he thought, was the
time for making his amendment. He felt hurt at inuring
the amendment in consequence of an Hon. Member
of that House being personally concerned, but the cir-
cumstances of the case were so peculiar that he felt
himself imperatively called on to do so. The House
would perceive that it bore upon the case of the Honour-
able Member fir Horsham, who had been ap-
pointed to an office in the Court of Exchequer. •
In consequence of the officer who held the situation be-1
fore his appointment having-died, that situation was
filled up, by, he believed, Lord Abinger, who gave it to.;
his son after March 14, when it might be understood that,
no compensation was to be bestowed, notice having
been given that the situation was to be abolished.
It appeared by this clause that it was to the same Chief
Baron, the father of the Hon. Gentleman, in conjunction
with the Commissioners of the Treasury, that the ques- •
tion of compensation was to be referred, and sup-
posing the emoluments of office to be from
2,0001. to 3,0001., . which he • understood they
were, the annual charge upon the country would •
be from 1,2001. to 1,4001. Now, with a laudable
care of the public interests, they had just
come to a division upon the propriety of reducing
the salary of the Vice-Chancellor, but here was a ques-
tion involving a much larger sum, and a much higher
principle. This office was conferred after due notice

had been given that changes were to be made in the
Court, and if they would look at the 58th clause,
where it was provided that it should cease after
the Henourable Member succeeded his father, he
thought it would be found to tell its own story, and that
the charge could not be imposed.on-the country on fair
grounds. The 58th clause was a xery remarkable one,
because if the Hon. Member was entitled to com-
pensation at all, he would be 'entitled to it after
he became a Peer. lie had been told that
there was a tacit understanding with the
former House of Commons, but with that they had no-
thing to do ; and he denied that there had been
any understanding or compromise on the subjecct.
If the Hon. Gentleman were entitled to the compensa-
tion, in God's name let hini have it, but he believed he
was not, and with this conviction he would propose to
insert a proviso that the compensation clause in this
Bill should only apply to those officers who were ap-
pointed to their offiee prior to the 14th of March, 1840.
The SPEAKER having put the question,
Sir F. POLLOCK, after a few' words, which were
almost inaudible in the gallery-, said, it was a
mistake to suppose that it was with the entire
concurrence of all parties concerned that the Court of
Exchequer was abolished. Certainly Lord Abinger
was very much disposed to resist it ; and he
believed there werr. many members of the pro-
fession with whom it was a subject of much regret
that there had been such a complete severance
of law and equity. What was the duty of
Lord Abinger when any vacancy, occurred ?
The office was one of considerable importance,
requiring much professional skill and knowledge, stud
the person who should fill it could not be expected
to take the office for a short or limited period.
Lord Abinger considered that he hadl a right, nay,
that in justice to the public service it was his duty,
to appoint to the situation, and there was no reason
under such circumstances why he should not appoint his
own son, who was eminently qualified to fill it with
honour and credit. -That gentleman was then in the
profession and held two appointments of considerable
value, which he had to give up in order to accept the
situation. Suppose the Bill had been abandoned or not
passed, in what situation would Lord Abinger have been
had he not made the appointment? He (the Attorney
General) considered that he did right, and that Mr.
Scarlett was entitled to compensation the same as any
other officer. He trusted, therefore, the House would
not agree to the amendment of the Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. WARD thought the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man went too far when he said the Noble Lord was
under no moral obligation to refrain from appointing.—
(Cheers ) In his opinion the office could have been as
well filled tc mporarily as permanently. He thou,zht
this was an inauspicious beginning of the career of the
Right Hon. Baronet, from whom so much was expected.
Sir R. PEFL—If he recollected properly the Nobla
Lord late at the heal of her Majesty's Government in
that House, although he had sonic doubts at first, gave
his assent to the clause. The Noble Lord had certainly
stated that, if he had been aware °flan the circumstances
of the case, he would not have objected to compensation.
Sir G. GREY assured the Right Hon. Baronet that
his Noble Friend's (Lord J. Russell) opinion was against
any compensation ; but the House affirmed the clause,
and at that time there was nothing said about the period.
After that division an Hon. Member suggested that the
compensation should only be during the lifetime of Mr.
Scarlett's father, and the Hon. and Learned Member for
Exeter thought that a reasonable proposition, and it was
al-reed to without a division. His Right Hun. Friend
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had expressed himself
in nearly similar words to those used by the Hon. Mem
ber for Sheffield.—(Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said at
the close of the debate Major Scarlett stated that his
brother had given up other offices, and then the Noble
Lord the Secretary for the Colonies said, it' he had been
aware of the circumstances at the time, he would have
admitted his right to compensation to the value of these
offices.

After a few words from the SOLICITOR-:GENEAL,
Sir It. - PEEL said that it was his intention that the
Dill brought in now, should be exactly the same as the