The Sun.
London, England, 1841-10-01 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, OCTOBER 1, 1641.

next Session, move for leave to bring in a Bill to repeal
certain clauses in an Act passed in the 9th year
of the reign of George IV., entitled "An Act to
Consolidate and Amend the Laws relating to Savings'
Banks," so far as the same authorises the Com-
missioners of the National Debt to apply any money
standing in the names of th 3 savings' banks depositors
into Exchequer Bills, and to convert those Exchequer
Bills into direr, per cent. Consolidated Bank Annuities ;
and which law gave un unlimited power for the sale and
purchase of such annuities, whereby a loss had been
already, and might be hereaftr, sustained, by the savings'
banks depositors, and an addition made to the debt of the
❑ation without the authority or control of Parliament.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sug-
gested that the Hon. Member had no right to put an ar-
gument, as he had done, into his notice. Besides, it was
not true that the savings' bank depositors had sustained a
loss by the system complained of ; and, therefore, he put
it to the Hon. Member, whether he would allow a false
impression to go abroad, in consequence of his giving
such a notice ?

The SPEAKER said it was certainly not in accord-
ance with the rules of the House for an Hon. Member to
append an argument to a notice of motion.
Mr. WILLIAMS—If the savinms ' banks depositors
cannot suffer —(Loud cries of " Order,' order.")
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.—AII
that is matter of argument, as the Hon. Gentleman must
see.

Mr. WILLIAMS.—It is matter of fact.---(Order.)
NEW WRIT.

On the motion of Sir J. GRAHAM, a new writ was
ordered for a Burgess to serve in Parliament for the
Borough of Wilton, in the room of Viscount Fitzharris
now Earl of Malmesbury.
CASE OF THE LATE MR. J. BROUGHAM.

Sir J. GRAHAM then rose and spoke as follows :
Sir, I hope, although I may not be strictly in order, that
the House will extend its indulgence to me while I offer
some explanation relating to certain expressions which
are reported to have fallen from me in the course of
debate the other evening, and which, I have been
informed, have greatly pained the feelings
of a Noble Lord, both as touching himself
and as reflecting on the memory of his departed bro-
ther, which, therefore, he feels most sensibly, and as

the:friend:of that Gentleman, I also join in those

feelings.—(Hear.) Nothing can in general be more
accurate than the reports of what pass in this House,
and I am therefore disposed to believe that what fell from
me was incorrect rather than that I have been mis-
represented. The House will recollect the other even-
ing the Honourable Member for Sheffield, referring to the
compensation awarded to Mr. Scarlett in consequence of
the abolition of his office in the Cor 't of Exchequer, re-
sisted the grant of that compensation, and asked if it
was not exactly a parallel case to that of Mr. James
Brougham, who had received an appointment from
his brother, the Lord Chancellor, which it had been
intended to abolish, and who had not received any
compensation. The Honourable Member for Shef-
field contended that the cases were strictly anala-
gous. I rose afterwards, and contended that there
was a striking difference in the two cases. I
stated that in the case of Mr. Brougham, when Lord
Brougham, the then Lord Chancellor, authorised the
appointment, his Lordship, at the very time the ap-
pointment was made, contemplated the abolition of the
office which Mr. Brougham filled, so that there was a
great difference between the two cases. I then intended
to have said, " The question arises, was he entitled to
compensation ?" Instead of which, I am reported
to have said, " The question arose, was he entitled to
compensation ?" which seems to convey the meaning that
the question of compensation had been raised at the
time. Now nothing can be further from the fact. The
question never was raised, and nothing can be more
honourable than was the conduct of the Lord Chan-
cellor and of Mr. Brougham on that occasion.—(Cheers.)
The question was never raised at all.—(Cheers.) I am
exceedingly sorry that any thing should have fallen from
me on that occasion which should seem to convey the
slightest feeling of disrespect to the memory of my de-
parted friend—(hear, hear, hear)—and I regret exceed-
ingly that any thing should have fallen from me to
wound the feelings of the Noble Lord.—(Loud cheers.)

upon, and the respective dates of such adjudications ; '
:he mode in which such claims were agreed to be paid.
and have been paid and satisfied ; the number of Commis-
sioners, Secretaries, and Clerks engaged in such Corn
mission ; the amount of the expenses of such Commis-
sion, specifying the Commissioners' salaries, and those
of the Secretaries and Clerks ; return of the expenses.
if any, which were allowed, and to whom, in respect ot
the prosecution of such claims, and how paid ; was any
and what deduction mitde from the claimants,
E'er the purpose of paying agents, or any other
expenses ; Anglo-Portuguese claimants ; the date of the
disbanding of the respective naval and military forces ;
the date of the mixed British and Portuguese -Commis-
sion, appointed to examine and decide upon the claims
of British subjects who served in the army or nary
during the war of restoration in Portugal ; copy of the
rules for the guidance of the Commissioners ; the date of
the installation in office of the Commissioners; the date of
the decision of the Belgian Minister on the question of con-
tracts ; the date of the commencement of the reception of
claims ; the number of days, and of hours per day, during
which each Commissioner respectively has been engaged
in the labours of the Commission ; whether any accounts
have been examined by one Commissioner in the absence
of the other ; the number of claims received, and the
number, if any, investigated and adjudicated upon ; and
of claimants to whom notice of such adjudication has
been given ; the number of secretaries, clerks, or others
employed under the Commissioners, the dates of their
several appointments, with their respective salaries ;
the salaries of the Commissioners, and from what
source paid ; together with an account of all other
expenses incidental to the Commission. The Noble Lord
referred, in a very low tone of voice, to the proceedings
which had taken place with respect to these claims. He
said, after the assurances which had been given, he had
entertained hopes that they would have been brought
to a speedy termination. Here were two Commis-
sioners, two Secretaries, and about twelve Clerks,
employed, who had under consideration nearly 1,400
claims of claimants resident only in London. The Com-
missioners stated that they could not adjudicate upon more
than 50 per month of the Portuguese claims. At that rate
the final adjudication would not be completed under two
years. When he compared the prospects at present with the
expectations which had been held out of a speedy adjudi-
cation, he must say he felt extremely disappointed. His
object, in reference to the Anglo-Spanish claims,
was to show how much more rapidly the investiga-
tion in that case had been concluded. Although
the Commission had had to decide upon twice the
number of claims, it concluded its labours within twelve
months. The Portuguese claims would not be decided
within less than two or three years ; he had, there-
fore, moved for a table of returns with respect
to both Commissions. He entreated her Majesty's Go-
vernment to adopt some measure for bringing the whole
matter to a speedy termination. Without wishing to
excite the feelings of the House, he would ask them
to consider the miserable condition.of these men, exposed
as they were to protracted suffering and disappointment.
If there was any part of the motion to which her Ma-
jesty's Ministers objected he would modify it, but at
the same time he would be sorry to see it so modified as
not to bring out the fact that the Portuguese Commis-
sion now sitting was pursuing a course totally at variance
with that which was pursued with respect to the Spanish
claimants.

Sir C. B. VERE seconded the motion.
Sir R. PEEL said that the chief remark he bad to
make was, that the returns moved for by the Noble
Lord had very much the air of being suggested by
a claimant—by a party who had (been dis-
appointed by the delay in adjudicating by
the Commissioners._ Several of the returns he objected
to, and others he did not ; but he thought the Noble
Lord ought not to call for any returns that would imply
a reflection upon the Commissioners. If, however, the
Noble Lord would withdraw his motion for that day, he
(Sir R. Reel) would take an opportunity of considering
what information he could with propriety give.
After a few observations from Lord PALMERSTON and
Lord RANELAGH,
Lord SANDON withdrew his motion.

Lord W. PAGET, by leave of the House, begged to
postpone the motion of which he had given notice, re-
lating to the number of the wives and children of soldiers
now serving in the army, ill consequence of not being
furnished with some evidence necessary for his purpose.
Postponed sine die.
Sir R. PEEL brought up some papers relating to the
importation of foreign grain.
DISTRESS IN BOLTON.

Dr. BOWRING then rose to move for copies o
correspondence between the Home-office and the
Poor-law Commissioners on the subject of distress
in Bolton; with the Report of the Assistant Commis-
sioner sent by her Majesty's Government to inquire into
alleged case of destitution and death, referred to in
the debates in Parliament, during the present Session.
After the rule laid down by the Chair last night, it be-
came the duty of every Member of the House to take
care that in any case he brought before the House he
should avoid all exaggeration. He stood in the position
of having made to the House some statements which so in-
terested the sympathies of the Right,Hon. Baronet oppo-
site as to induce him to institute local inquiries,
with a view to the investigation of the facts, as
stated by him, of the distress existing in Bolton.
He could not but own that it was peculiarly incumbent
upon him to take care that the statements were properly
authenticated. He was anxious, from being locally
connected , with the district, nut to expose him-
• self to the charge of exaggerated statements
or high colouring. His connexion with Bolton
was of a peculiar nature. He went there a stranger,
and his • election was a proof of the great distress ex•
isting in that town. He had been induced to make the
present motion, because one of the Guardians of the
Bolton Union, in a manner most uncourteous and
uncalled for, had ventured to reproach his (Dr. Bow-
ring's)personal veracity,and to represent him as unworthy
of belief. At a public meeting which he attended, a
statement or the distress was made which had harrowed
up his heart, and he was determined, if he found that
statement borne out by the fact, to represent it in the
House of Commons, and to plead the cause of the
oppressed poor in the presence of the privileged rich.
The gentleman who made that statement had been one of
the Board of Guardians. He was a member of the
Society of Friends, and had fallen under the dis-
pleasure of the Honourable Member for Knares-
borough, as belonging to a body of men who
were remarkable for " professing humanity." Now,
in his opinion, there never was a society which had
made itself so distinguished as the advocates of huma-
nity, and the best interests of the poor, as that of the
Quakers, and the gentleman to whom the Honourable
Member fur Knaresborough alluded, was one of those
who " did good by. stealth and blushed to find it fame."
He applied to the Guardians, Messrs. Ashurst and
Naseby, requesting they mould enable him to ascertain
what the real state of the people was—what their con-
dition and sufferings—that he might know whether the
sorrowful tales they told at the public meeting could be
borne out by facts. Mr. Naseby and he (Dr. B.) accord-
ingly began to visit the suffering poor in their wretched
cellars. He made a memorandum on that occasion
of what he had seen and heard, and he would trespass on
the indulgence of the House while reading one of those
records which he then prepared. The first case was that
of a poor man aged 40 years, his wife 36. They had ten
children, seven of whom were dead. He had been
twenty-one weeks without work. He had 2s. 6d.
per week parish relief, and some time before
50s. had been given them ; but all that money was, on
the occasion of his (Dr. Bowring's) visit, spent, and they
had pledged all they possessed. Their eldest boy was
thirteen years of age, and, when employed, got 4s. per
week. The family was in nearly a perishing condition,
and they had sold all their furniture to procure
the necessaries of life.—(Bear, hear.) In pursuing
those inquiries, they (1)r. Bowring and the Guardians)
were accompanied by such a multitude, that he was
obliged to give up his object lest he should be accused
of ostentation, and endeavouring to give a character to
his conduct far from his thoughts and feelings ; for he
was not of opinion with the Honourable Member for
Knaresborough (Mr. Ferrand) that benevolence should
sound a trumpet before it. In the course of
his inquiries into the state of the distress in
Bolton the demand upon his sympathy was so
great, that he who had not the privilege of wealth, and
who would confess without shame that lie had known
the vicissitudes of life, and that he had been disciplined
by affliction, which lie hoped taught him to sympathise
with others—so great was the demand upon his sympathy,
that he could not pursue the inquiry to the extent he
desired. He had, however, received further statements
of facts from Mr. Naseby ; and one of those. facts had
awakened the compassion and elicited the intervention of
the Right lion. Baronet at the head of the Government. It
appeared, from the reply given to the inquiries of the
Government, that the statement was in some particulars
erroneous. The Jury had been called together,
but they did not record a verdict, because they were of
opinion that no blame could be attached to any one.
But there could be 'to doubt but a man had died of want
at his loom. The Hon. Gentleman then read a letter,
which he said he received from Mr. W. Cooke, secretary
and visitor to the benevolent society of Ashton, dated
September 17, 1341, detailing the case of a person named
Pierce. The letter stated that Pierce died from want
of food ; and that the Committee of the society to whom
he (Cooke) reported the case were of the same opinion.
There was no bedding in his cellar, and he and his fa-
mily were obliged to lie on the bricks and stones. That
was his situation only six months before he died. Mr.
Cooke further stated that he saw the family picking up
rotten potatoes which had been thrown to the pigs, and
eating them ; nor was that a single instance, for he saw
them taking such food frequently. There was a case of
distress, and he thought the Right lion. Gentlemen ought
to feel that it became him (1)r. Bowring), from the posi-
tion in which he stood, to bring forward such an
example, proving that the attention of Parliament
ought to be directed to the condition of the people.
He had stated on that occasion that there were 1,200
houses unoccupied in the borough.—(Hear.) Pro-
bably it was a fact that the rage for building in Bolton,
as elsewhere, had exceeded the demand ; but since he
had made the statement he had been informed
that the present number was 1,400, and lie had
no doubt that many of them had connected with
them some tale of sorrow and distress. He was
also assured that only two thirds of the Poor-rates
could be collected; that the workmen connecte with
machinery were engaged only half their timed that
andthe masons
that
ly
A meeting was held in
tll ando tadoorisn:srisl
owe•me raek
eorns7aonnde h
at third
oeram pwleoayveedr
s;
were in a still worse condition.
Bolton on Friday, at which it was unanimously re-
solved to present a memorial to her Majesty s Govern-
ment, entreating her Majesty not to consent to the
prorogation of Parliament until those distresses had
been inquired into. An appeal was made to
that meeting whether the statements which he
(Dr. Bowring) had made were borne out, and it was
resolved that-they were co.rreeth RlFee. reverent}
gentle-
men with 6:;544 y acqt;Ontieillia4 afteiicie4
that meeting: he was sure that not one of them would

leviate a hair's breadth from veracity. Mr. Baker sair
le could appeal to every class for evidence that the di:
press was universal ; he would make no selection; i
pervoled every class, from the capitalist to th,
abourer. The employers were suffering no les.
than the men ; many appeared in the Gazette, and other:
made quiet compositions, in the hope of being able t,
keep on a little longer. Another of these clergymen re-
ported the case of a family which had been without
rood for two days. Now, be begged again to repeal
that he felt deeply grateful to the Government for send-
ing a Commission to inquire into this distress. But hi
entreated the Government that the inquiry might not be
a partial one. He had understood that the Commissionet
who went to Bolton had remained there only twenty-four
hours. Probably he was sent to investigate one specia'
circumstance—to make one particular inquiry—thougl
he thought that he had gathered that it was the inters
Lion -of the Right Mon. Baronet that the inquiry
should be made much more extensive. He wa:
fully convinced that the more rigid the in-
quiry was made, the greater would be thi
demand for the interference of the Legislature, in
order to rescue the people from the condition into
which they had fallen. The Right Hon. Baronet
had made some statements on a previous night in
connection with the savings' banks, and drawn from
what had occurred the deduction that already there had
been considerable alleviation of the sufferings of the people.
He thought the savings' banks were in some degree a
deceptive test. A great portion of the depositors were
domestic servants, who were not affected by seasons of
scarcity or .general distress. The Right Honourable
Baronet would also recollect that the period to
which his return referred, was during the elections, when
a large amount of money was spent among the people. He
thought the profession of the parties should in all cases
be given in reference to the sums deposited in the savings
banks. In the Exeter savings' bank the profession of parties
depositing was given, and he inquired how many operatives
and artisans were depositors. Of 29,643 accounts there
were 6,130 in the name of domestic servants ; 11,538
connected with trade, of whom 5,445 were
children ; 9,252 agriculturists ; 1,320 belonging
to the army and navy ; and 1,403 public
servants and others. There were 12,604 children
in all, while the whole number of artizans was 2,220,
making only one-thirteenth of the whole number depo-
sited. The amount deposited was 886,032/., of which
194,1701. was deposited by domestic servants, and 86,168/.
by artisans, making :one-tenth of the whole. He was
aware that individual cases of distress were not a proof
of its generality.—(Hear; hear.) If Hon. Members
would look at a document lately issued, in the form of a
Report, from the Registrar-General, they would find
that the mortality in the manufacturing districts had of
late decreased very much. In the metropolis in 1837-8
the number of deaths was 53,596—in 1838-9 the
number was 46,768 ; in 1839-40, it was 45,132, showing
a decrease in the mortality of the metropolis since 1837-8
of 16 per cent. Taking the country at large in 1837-8,
the number of deaths was 335,956 ; in 1838-9, it was
331,007; and in 1839-40, it was 350,101, making a general
increase throughout the whole of the country of nearly
4 per cent. But what was the return from the manu-
facturing districts of Lancashire ? In 1837-8 the
number of deaths was 22,932 ; in 1838-9 the number
was 26,606 ; in 1839-40 it was 31,918, showing an
increase of forty per cent.—(Hear, hear.) Thus,
whilst in the agricultural counties there was an
increase only of 20 per cent, there was in Lancashire, which
was a manufacturing county, the increase had
been 40 per cent. There were certainly pestilential and
mortiferous diseases in those districts, but these were
_ the consequences and companions of distress.—(Cries of
Hew., hear." In the agricultural districts the
average of distress was 130 in the 1,000 ; in the metro-
polis it was 161 ; in the manufacturing districts of Lan-
cashire it was 190.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) He stated
those facts not through any desire of fomenting
a bad feeling towards the aristocracy, or of inflaming
the popular passions, or fanning the flame of popular
discontent. If he had sought to pander to the mul-
titude, he might have taken a different course upon
the Poor-law Bill, and done everything in his povkr to
prevent that which he thought was right—namely, to
leave the measure in the hands of her Majesty's Govern-
ment. But he only stated this, that the Corn-law and
the Poor-law could not be maintained together.
He concurred with those who thought that the
Poor-law ought not to be interfered with in its
details, in order that her Majesty's Govern-
ment might not turn round on them, and ac-
cuse them of having taken that measure which
had such imperfections out of their hands, and
thrown from their shoulders the responsibility
of that measure. He must again thank the Right Hon.
Baronet for the Home Department, for the peisonal
kindness he had shown him in this matter.
(Dr. B.) heard that there was some technical objections
to the production of the papers moved for. He, how-
ever, felt that it was due to himself to have said all that
had fallen from him on the present occasion. He felt
that no apprehension of his (Dr. Bowring's)
having suffered himself to make unauthorized statements,
would induce the Right Hon. Gentlemen to refuse those
reports, The Hon. Member concluded by reading his
motion.

Mr. BROTHERTON seconded the motion.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that he should gladly have
seconded the motion of the Right Honourable Member,
were it not liable to a technical objection.
He found it necessarry in the course of the communica-
tion which he had instituted into the case of
distress alleged on a former occasion by the Hon.
Member, to embody certain extracts from the speech
of the Hon. Gentleman ; and those extracts could not be
laid before the House. But he would suggest to the
Hon. Gentleman that he might amend his motion by
adding to it the words " or extracts," and he (Sir J.
Graham) would in that case lay before the House all the
papers relating to the subject which could be produced.
Ire must say that he considered it the duty of Hon.
Members, before making statements in the House,
to inform themselves accurately on the subject ;
because it was one thing to make statements in
that House harrowing to the feelings, and calculated to
excite the House and the country ; and another, after
an interval of time to investigate the:de state-
ments, and follow them np step by step ; and
if at the conclusion of such an investigation
they were to attend so Ftrictly to privilege, Hon. Mem-
bers ought to feel the urgent necessity of caution in the
statements which they made. He., would suggest to
Hon. Members who had to make any statements re-
lating to the administration of the Poor-laws
to have the kindness to communicate to him in
writing the statements of facts on which they wished to
have an investigation made, and he would cause such in-
vestigation to take place, and then when the Hon. Mem-
ber made such statements they could at once be met.
In the cases mentioned on a former evening by the
Honourable Member for Knaresborough, relating to
certain cases in a Union in Yorkshire, and in the
cases mentioned by the Hon. Member for Rochdale,
on the same evening, he had adopted that course with
those Hon. Members, to furnish him with their state-
ments in writing, and had assured them that those cases
should be investigated, and the statements gone into
point by point.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Mem-
ber for Bolton seemed to complain that the Assistant
Poor-law Commissioner had only remained in Bolton 24
hours, and therefore contended that he could not tho-
roughly have investigated those facts. He was not aware
of the length of time which the Commissioner had
remained at Bolton, but it was certainly re-
quisite that he should use no unnecessary de.
lay. But the Commissioner had seen the relieving
officer of Bolton, and the Board of Guardians of that
place, and he had gone into the statements which the
Hon. Member had made, point by point, as the House
would find when the Report should be laid before them.
The Hon. Member had that night alluded to some fresh
cases ; but when one statement was under discussion he
hardly thought he had a right to go into new matter, and
thus thus to change the issue. Without meaning any
offence to the Hon. Member for Bolton, he must say that
he hoped, with regard to his new statements, lie had ob-
served greater caution. The first case to which the
lion. Member had alluded was that of a person named
Pearce, who, according to the statements of the Hon.
Member, after undergoing the greatest extremity of suf-
fering, had died under circumstances the most revolting.
He would pass by the Coroner's Inquest, because the
Hon. Gentleinau admitted that he could not rely upon it;
but he must remark that the Coroner of Bolton, having
been applied to, had refused to hold an Inquest on the
ground that there was no necessity for it, so satisfied had
he been that there was not even a prima facie case for
holding an Inquest. The Coroner For the county of Lan-
caster, however, had not been so scrupulous; he had held an
Inquest, and held it in the absence of the relieving officer.
Now, with respect to the statement of the wife of Pearce.
He begged the House to listen on the one hand to the
statement of the Hon. Gentleman, and to the report of the
Assistant-Commissioner on the other. The Right llon.
Gent. then referred to the statement of Pearce's case, as
made by 1)r. Bowring; but, said the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, the Report of the Poor-law Assistant Commissioner
was • quite at variance with that statement. The Com-
missioner said he visited the house and examined the
widow of Pearce. She informed him (the Commissioner)
that her husband died in February, more than half a year
ago, at the age of 65, of a lingering illness ; that she had
employment herself, and her two daughters were fully em-
ployed, earning 9s. 6d. a week daring her husband's life,
and that they were in a comfortable way.—(Hear,
hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman then referred to the
case of Bristow. It appeared this case had been reported
to the relieving-officer,, and that immediate relief had
been administered to his family—(Hear)—and they had
lOs. a-week given to them for their support.—(Hear,
hear.) He was very far from denying that severe dis-
tress existed at Bolton, but what he complained of was,
that that distress had been exaggerated. An investiga-
tion took place with respect to the education of the poor
about Christmas, 1840, and the House would allow him
to read the Report of the Assistant Poor-law Commis-
sioner in reference to that inquiry. He would read the
words of the relieving-officer, whose evidence was
taken by Mr. Mott, the Poor-law Commissioner in ques-
tion. This person said he recollected that about
Christmas last the rate-payers formed themselves into a
Committee, to inquire into the distress of the people of
Bolton. A statement was made in reference to
the several parishes said to have been visited, and
he thought it his duty to examine the cases.—(Hear,
hear.) The result was, that he found that in every case
representations had been made which were not true.
The amount of earnings had been incorrectly stated, and
a colour had been given to every one, implying a greater
degree of want than really existed. He charged one
woman with telling untruths, when she confessed that
she had made her case as bad as she could, in order to
obtain some blankets which were to be distributed. The
Commissioner, Mr. Mott, said that these statements
were got up for an Anti-Corn-law meeting at Bolton ;
and now they were reproduced in V.lrlignilent, cC4lll=
01°140 1,1p0). gwl Ri* .s. tothe same object.
'llhen, as to the other point alluded to by the Hon. Mem-
ber—the number of uninhabited houses. That also had

');_..en investigated by the Assistant-Commissioners. It
vas attempted to be shown that the excess of uninha-
bited houses was attributable to the existing distress.
Nfr. Mott's statement was, that the number of houses
necessary empty, according to the population, was
16,836 ; the actual number was 20,292 ; but he attri-
buted the whole excess to over-speculation in building
—in fact, to over-production.—(Hear, hear.) The As-
sistant Commissioner had also entered into the question
mooted by the Hon. Member ; viz., the number of deaths,
As shown b) the Register-General's Report, which had
been laid on the table of the House a few days ago.
He would call the attention of the House to the fact,
that, until the Bill, establishing the registry
of births, deaths, and marriages, there was no
return made which could be at all relied on ;
so that, in fact, no comparison could be made
with any approach to accuracy. If the Hon. Member
had any additional facts, and would apprise him of
them, he would promise that immediate investigation
would be instituted.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He had
shortly given the facts of the Report, but it
would be laid in extenso on the table of the House.
He trusted it would in future induce Hon. Members to
be more cautious in making statements upon exparte
evidence, and that in future whatever statements they
made should be communicated in writing, in order that
they might be investigated.—(Loud cheers.)
Sir R. PEEL wished to refer to some statements made
upon a former evening, as proof of the distress prevail-
ing in certain districts. He was sure the House would
recollect that no one could admit more fully than he did
that there was in the manufacturing districts, and particu-
larly in the cotton manufactures, considerable dis-
tress, and that the manufacturing population had to
submit to severe sufferings and privations. But the
question was not as to the extent of that distress, but
as to the accuracy of certain statements with regard to
that distress. He had said that there was great
exaggeration on the subject of the distress ;
and as to particular facts, and he had cautioned the
House against aggravating the discontent that prevailed
by such statements. Before he proceeded to refer to the
points to which he wished to call attention he was
anxious to notice one statement made by the Hon. Gen-
tleman who had just sat down with respect to the state
of mortality in the manufacturing districts, and to cau-
tion the House against drawing an inference even from
the rate of mortality having increased, which he be-
believed to be the fact. In these counties, which were
the chief seat of the manufactures, there had been an
increase •of mortality. At the same time it must be
borne in mind that conclusions should not be come to
hastily. The Commissioners in their Report had given
a caution which the lion. Gentleman, after careful pe-
rusal, should not have overlooked.—(Cries of " Hear,
Hear.) The Register-General stated that the pre-
valence of increased mortality in those counties which
compared the largest amount of population, suggested a
course which might be found in the circumstance to
which the manufacturing population were exposed. But
a further examination showed that not only did the in-
crease vary, but that there was a decreased mortality in
some districts ; and such was the case particularly in
Manchester, Salford, Bolton, Oldham, Stockport, and
Leeds. Though there had been that increase, yet in the
towns which were particularly the seats of manufacturing
industry—Manchester, Salford, Bolton, Oldham, Stock-
port, and Leeds—the mortality had decreased. On a
former night he (Sir R. Peel) had referred to the returns
from the savings' banks, not as a proof that there was
no distress, for of that he was well aware ; nay, more,
he expressly said that he did not think the returns from
the savings' banks could be altogether relied on as a
test of the comfort of the working classes ; but at the
same time that no Government, in attempting to collect
information respecting the condition of the labour-
ing poor, would disregard those returns as evi-
dence of that condition ; and he thought that as far
as those returns could be relied on, they rather
tended to induce those who felt a deep interest in that
subject to take a less discouraging view of the condition
of the poor than some Hon. Gentlemen were inclined to
do ; and he (Sir R. Peel) gave an account of the state of
the deposits of the present year for the last three months.
The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Stockport (Mr.
Cobden) in following him (Sir R. Peel) said that the re-
turns from some of those banks were entirely delusive.
Mr. COBDEN—Not delusive but fallacious.
Sir R. PEEL—WeII, then, the Hon. Member said
fallacious, and that it was not his (Sir R. Peel's) duty to
have brought forward returns only for a few months of
the present year; but why, said the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Cobden), did not the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel)
bring forward returns from the same banks for the years
1837, 38, 39, and 40 ?
Mr. COBDEN-1835, 36, and up to 1841.
Sir R. PEEL really did not know that the lion.
Gentleman mentioned the years 1835 and 1836 ; he had
not been present at the time the Hon. Gentleman spoke.
He admitted that he had not the returns for those years,
but the Hon. Member should have the returns from the
year 1837 upwards. The Honourable Gentleman called
for returns for those years, and now he said he went
further back, to 35 and 36, but he certainly alluded to
the years to which he (Sir R. Peel) referred. It was
said also, that he (Sir R. Peel) had made particular re-
ference to the agricultural classes. Now, he made in-
quiry with respect to the manufacturing districts, and
he had selected a particular district which was of the
most importance—the district of Manchester and Sal-
ford—and the following was the result of the informa •
tion sent to him respecting the savings' banks in those
places. The returns, be admitted, began with the year
1837, and the omission of 1835 and 186 was not inten-
tional. The months included in the retain were July,
August, and September, of the years 1837, 1838, 1839,
1840, and 1841. In 1837, 1838, and 1839, taking the
number of deposits and the number of withdrawals
for the three above mentioned months, the average
was—Deposits 22,6001., withdrawals 21,0301., show-
ing a balance of 1,570/. in favour of the deposits.
In 1839 and 1840, taking the average of these two years,
the amount of deposits was 24,300/, and the withdrawals
23,8001., leaving a balance in favour of deposits of only
500/. In the year 1841, the deposits for the three months
Jul), August, and September, amounted to 28,1031.,
having increased, as compared with the average of the
first period, from 22,6001. to 28,103/. ; and the average
increase, in 1840, was from 24,300/. to 28,1021. The
amount of withdrawals in that quarter of 1841 was
25,3561., leaving a balance in favour of deposits, as com-
pared with the withdrawals, of 2,8471. The balance of
the first period was 1,507/., and in the second period
5001., and in the last period 2,8461. But it might be
said, give us the number of depositors, because the
number of depositors is of great importance ; because it
might happen in the latter period, that although the
amount of deposits might be. greater, yet that the
number of depositors had diminished, and an argument
might•be founded upon that, that the depositors were of
the more wealthy class. In the first period, the average
of 1837 and 1838, the number of contributors was 4,300,
while in the average of 1839 and 1840 the number of
contributors was 5,103, while the average number of con-
tributors in the last year was 6,335.—(Hear, hear.) He
did not wish to push the argument to an extent to which
it was not entitled. He said again, what he had stated
before, that. the criterion of the savings' banks was not
one on which he relied ; but still the comparison was
favourable. In the course of the same debate the Hon.
Member for Manchester—

Mr. GIBSON here rose amidst loud cries of "Order."
He believed it had been laid down by the Chair that it
was contrary to the custom of the House for Hon. Mem-
bers to allude to what had taken place in a former debate.
Ile felt this was precisely an occasion on which the in-
convenience of the practice was manifested.—(Laughter
from the Ministerial benches.) That was his case. Let
them observe what was going to take place. The Right
Hon. Baronet, having had a week's time for prepara-
tion—having all the means a Prime Minister had at his
disposal to make inquiry—came down to the House to
make attacks on the statements of Hon. Members.
Now, he (Mr. Gibson) well remembered what had been
stated by the Noble Lord the Member for North Lanca-
shire, that no Hon. Member could so well dress up a
case for present and temporary effect as the Right Hon.
Baronet the Member for Tamworth.—(Cries of " Order,
order.") But what he (Mr. Gibson) was going to ob-
serve-was this, that it was not his wish to shrink from
the fullest investigation of anything he had said on the
subject of the distresss of the country ; but he did
think, for the purpose of arriving at the truth, that it
was very desirable that an Hon. Member, whose state-
ment was about to be attacked, should have time given
in order that he might come into the House prepared
with the necessary testimony to enable him to make his
defence to the charges's° to be brought against him.—
(Hear, hear, and "Order.")
Sir R. PEEL resumed—He confessed that when a
statement of very great importance was made in that
llouse, he did not think, when his sole object was to as-
certain the facts, he should be called to order.—(Hear,
hear.) Ile would leave it to the house to judge whe-
ther he was about to be guilty of any infraction of the
rules of Parliament, which justified any Member in pro-
testing against the course that he pursped. He con-
sidered that it was absolutely necessary that he should
make the statement he was about to have made. When
it was asserted in that House that with respect to Man-
chester, thousands were deprived of employment, and
thousands suffering under typhus fever, from want of
sufficient food—he would appeal to the House whether it
was right that a Minister of the Crown, hearing a state-
ment so appalling as that, could refrain from making
inquiry—(Cheers)—and from communicating, in some
way or other, the result of that inquiry to the House.
(Cheers.) He left it to the House to judge whether it
was wise that the enforcement :of technical rules should
permit this country, and the other countries; of
Europe, to labour under the impression that
thousands were actually suffering in this country
under typhus fever, produced by want of food, and that
when a Minister of the Crown merely attempted to ad-
minister consolation and satisfaction to minds grieved by
such statements, an lion. Member should get up and
appeal to a rule of the House which prevented reference
to the debate in which the assertions were made.—
(Cheers.) He had thought that the Hon. Gentleman
himself, from his connexion with Manchester, would hear
with satisfaction the statement which he was about to
make.—(Much cheering from the Tories.) He (Sir R.
Peel) was merely going to state that he had received
from a person of the highest respectability in Manchester
a communication to the effect that great alarm prevailed
in consequence of the statement made in the House that
thousands were dying in that town of typhus fever ; and
the communication was accompanied with returns from
the Fever Hospital, commencing with June in the year
1837, and carried down to May of the present year. In
the year 1837 the number of patients admitted into
the Fever Hospital was 1,797 ; in 1838 it was 1,372 •, in
1839 it was 1,042 ; in 1840 it was 848 ; and in 1841
up to the beginning of May it was only 69Q, (Tory
cheers.) In order to make the comparison 'perfectly
fair the average
.of the months of June, July, August,
and September,m those years was calculated, and it
appeared that in these four months of 1837, the number
of patients received into this hospital was 340—in 1838,
432 in 1839, 203 ;in 1840, 268 ; and in 1841, 197.

EVENING SUN

(MIT cheers.) Could any man deny that it wa:, 1:"
portant to snake these statements to 11",'s
(Cheers.) He it:, nit ;.:ois it) d7•'
them. But was any man to .3ily tnat a 7`.11:;
Crown was to be prevented, by technical rides— %, ith",
reference to party, or commenting on what had occurred
in a former debate—from removing fro:'n the minds of
Members and of the public a delusion of the most rnis-
chievous kind, and stating to the House the information
which he had received ?--(Tory cheers.)
Mr. GIBSON said the Right Hon. Bart. had misundey
stood him. It had not been his object to prevent the
Right Hon. Baronet from making his statement. l
only meant to complain that the statement WaS
made without giving Honourable Members notice
so that they might he prepared to defend
themselves.—(Hear, hear.) The effect of the statement
would he exactly that which the Right Hon. Baronet
said he wanted to avoid—to spread delusion throughotq
the country.—(Hear, hear.) Be (Mr. Gibson) lau
said nothing about hospitals. He did not think that
t) phus fevers were admitted into hospitals, on account of
their infectious character.—(Great laughter from the
Tories.) He had received letters from Manchester,
stating that there were thousands afflicted with that
fever.—(Hear, hear.) It might easily be understeocl
that the word " thousands" was not used in a literal
sense, but only to signify that very great numbers were
suffering so.—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition,
much cheering and laughter from the Tories.) 1-1° d
Gentlemen opposite might laugh, for they scenic
disposed to take the distress and sickness in it veil
jocular manner—(Hear)—but he had received letters fronl:
physicians in Manchester, stating that great numbers in
that town were dying from want of food, and that, lad
such cases, death was usually preceded by tYltid
symptoms ; so that, in truth, the victim might be s
to die of fever. He drew, however, one consolation froin
the statement of the Right Hon. Baronet, and ,nl,
the disposition of the Government to disbelieve that (ii 7
tress existed. His consolation was, that they se 0h
t 0
intimate to the people that if the existence of distresi
was proved, they were prepared to remove it.— (Hear.)
Mr. COBDEN thought that the increase in the h;
counts of the Manchester Savings' Bank was owing to
t
extension of its branches.—(Hear, hear.) He had 311
opportunity also of exposing a fallacy in the'comparisono
as to the proportion of houses to population in Bolton
and Liverpool. It was proved in the Statistical Seal°
ed
of the British Association at Liverpool, that there wqe
in that town between 50,000 and 60,000 persons living in
cellars, whereas the persons lodged in that nyinner -
Hon.
Bolton were very few.—(Hear, hear.) The Right
Baronet had said that the years 1835 and 1836 vverte,
years of fictitious prosperity. Even if he granted that,
still it would follow that 1837 was the Year 50-
revulsion ; and _ yet the Right Hon. Baronet ell°.t
that year, which must naturally be the one of greatesf
distress, as the one from which to prove the progresst
prosperity. The Right Hon. Baronet stated that 1,4,2
~
persons were admitted into the Fever Hospital in 18y'
but he did not say that, according to the Report, a ld__
large number of the sick were refused admittanee•t
(Hear, hear.) The course pursued by the Govertilne
would go merely to irritate the people.—(Hear,
They heard the unanimous voice of the people in the 01_e
tressed districts, imploring her Majesty not to prorogun,
Parliament until the cause of their sufferings were 1,1
quired into, and they refused all inquiry.—(Hear,
The Right Hon. Baronet produced a fallacious, he wOO
not say a garbled, account of the savings' banks,
make it appear that no distress existed.—(Hear, henriol
He would, however, implore the Right Hon. Baronet
take this question into his consideration as a stAesnian
and give it impartial inquiry.—(Hear, hear.)
site
Mr. DARBY hoped the Hon. Gentleman oppo-
would learn from what had passed, to abstain fro_
making exaggerated statements, and spreading unfounct
ed alarm. that
Mr. C. BULLER had often known statements
distress existed to be met by Ministers with the stag;
ments that there was no distress.—(Hear, hear.) to
this occasion the denial would be very inconvenient
the House, as communications would be received &en":
all parts of the country, to the very end of the Sessi°
calling on the representatives to re-affirm the existen
of and the extent of the distress. He could not take
the testimony of Mr. Mott, the Assistant Commission!
o.
as conclusive, for he thought it likely that relievilT
officers would be disposed to make light of the distres •
Mr. Mott showed that his judgment was not t°s
be relied on when he stepped out of bier
way to give an opinion as to the ningli,d,
in which the people of England ought to be house
and chose Liverpool as the model, whereas it was wi.
known that in that city the people were worse lour ed
and the proportion of houses to population less shit
where else in England.—(Hear, hear.) The Bib-
re°
Hon. Baronet first admitted the distress, and the
ferred to statistical details to show that the countrfc,
was never in a better state, and that there never 01%50
little sickness and mortality in Manchester. IC3P:
people there never had so much money in the stly'llqa
banks. He thought the Government ought to abstain frn
On
snaking such statements. It would lead to the opinil to
that they were disposed to underate the distress, and

neglect ft remedy.—(Hear, hear.) aid
Lord SANDON hoped that Gentlemen opposite vv°
take the advice of the Hon. and Learned Member De.
him (Mr. Darby) and abstain from exaggerated sta.%
ments which were calculated to mislead and alarm !it
public, and to go forth not only over this country Math
over the world.—(Hear, hear, from the Tories.) ho it
respect to the typhus fever, it was well known t"fever
was chiefly for the reception of that class of disease the
hospitals were established, in order to seParlli-Teeen
be.
patients from their families.—(Loud cheers.)
Hewed that the accounts of the public distress -
exaggerated ; and he had to think that distress
had been of late diminishing.
Major AGLIONBY expressed his belief that nil
exaggeration of the distress of the people could o°,
tend to diminish the evil, but pf the existence of velJ
lamentable distress no doubt could be entertained.
Mr. HARDY defended the conduct of the Goyerll,
.
meat, who had, he believed, pursued the proper eollr't-g
in their investigations on the subject of the statele°
which had been made to the House. There had bee o
over-production among manufacturers, and it was t°
circumstance he attributed the recurrence of distr"
among the working classes.
Mr. ALDAM stated that one of the causes of the ails;
tress which had of late prevailed was to be found in 1:45
fact, that although there had been no scarcity of IV's°
during the autumn, there had not been, as was the ° 0
during former years, a rise of p: ices in the antlilllof
trade. Such a circumstance led to a scarcity the
work, and offered an unfavourable prospect for ,cl, •
coming winter. It was also to be obserr'rly
that during the five years which proceeded 1830, nelir
half a million less of goods had been exported than
idle
ing the five years which preceded 1840. The P°.rica.
tion, however, had increased, while trade had ditniolsll
EXCH EQU ER BILLS FUNDING BILL, jog
Th? CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, ha': to
moved the Order of the Day for the House going in
Committee on this Bill,
Mr. WILLIAMS took the opportunity of exPre;
his belief, that if the Right Hon. Gentleman ha" a,
recourse at once to a loan, he would have obtaiocl
better bargain for the public, and would have tnore.Ap
curely obtained the object he had in view. The
Hon. Gentleman's proposal would, he believed,
5,000,0001. instead of 2,500,0001. to the national debt;id
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUEII 5 of
that his arrangement was to be considered rath;l;itli
exchanging a debt than of creating a new one. \lea
regard to a loan, he did not think it could be obtall„0
upon such. favourable terms as the Hon. Geolll at
seemed to Imagine. A loan had never been obtain° the
the rate of less than eighteen or nineteen shillings ill
pound.

I

CASE OF APLEOD. is
z ;At
Commodore NAPIER wished to put it to the
Hon. Baronet opposite whether it would not be 2"1-,oe
ble that Parliament should not be prorogued until s° of
settlement had been come to relative to the et'cs%he
APLeod, a case which involved considerations °l'
utmost delicacy
—I can n and importance. 0 e
Sir R. PEELot give the Gallant Colnrn°
any answer upon the subject. t
Mr. YORKE hoped that Parliament would wa.4
allowed to separate until this important questio9
placed upon a safe footing. Although the Goverflolose,
had not been induced to continue the Session ill ice
(pence of the distress prevailing in the country, iitriot-
plored the Right Hon. Baronet, in the name Of P 000
ism, and for the sake of that national fame and 110 oc4
upon which he pretended to such high aspiratiotioal
to prorogue Parliament until the important and el.:, de'
w
circumstances in which the country was placed ".
'finitely and distinctly understood. isigg
The SPEAKER then left the Chair, and a clause I‘f tho
been agreed to, to the effect that where the 1.0111 Act,
Treasury were mentioned, any three of them wig It 05
the Bill went through Committee, aid the 'gel°
ordered to be received to-morrow. .
EXCHEQUER BILLS BILL.
the
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of
CHEQUER, a clause was inserted in the Bill, (01,
ering the Lords of the Treasury to insert a clause t!00r,
propriation ; and the Bill, having gone througliceiyed
mittee, the Report was ordered to be re
c`
morrow. ;rd to°
The Population Payments Bill was read a db
and pasSed. of,;
The other Orders of the Day were then digpbsevlit;
and the House adjourned at a Quarter before l'
o'Clock.

ISIIES'
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A. B. SAVORY and SONS, Manufacturing Silvers bait the
Cornhill, London, opposite the Bank of England, sublitsioit
prices of the following patterns of strongly-plated CC? kis r
DISEIES, with silver handles and edges, and silver sble O
engraving the crest or coat of arms :
The Gadroon Pattern.
Four stronc4 1t d Four extra strongV•
y- a e tor- nuke% 10
ner Dishes and Covers ~...ClO 10 plated Corner ----
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Four extra strongly-plat d and Covers --... ..... ....,
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Corner Dishes and Covers 12 12 , th
N.B. The Covers are made with moveable handles, 5:a..0,1
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they form extra dishes. Drawings of the above are fon
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....
In R TH S.
On the 27th ult., at Forest-hill, near Sydenbarn, the lad/ 4
CaOn the 29th inst., in Mtagu-square, the lady of
Dodd,sq., 1k1.P., f a son. )0 1111'
On the 28th ult., o
in Bentincksere,n, the lady of John
lard, Esq , of a daughter, Esq' of
On the 28th Idt„ the lady of Samuel Walker,
Warwick Villas, Harrow-road, of a daughter.
___________---- j

DIED or,
widowOn tohfeth2osthlatueltio,
huat
oefl iGitioars,,golVwl.rs. II a. rrie.Et
il'izaaYbietb
On the 27th ult., at Seale Lodge, Surrey, Al'sl
Wood, aged 78.

London : Printed and Published by MURDO Y 0 ;e4
No. 112, Strand, at The Sun Office, No. 112. tra..„
the county of Middlesex, Friday, October 1, 7841*