The Sun.
London, England, 1841-03-04 00:00:00

MORNING EDITION

to. it to resist going into Committee. He (Mr. W.)
d; A not resist their going into Committee, but he should
r ,ot admit the force of the Right Hon. Baronet's argu-
rents, because be had in the next sentence admitted
that the present measure was wholly inoperative.
Lord F. EGE RTO N thought the details of the mea-
Imre could be much better discussed in Committee, but
'he would make one observation on a remark of the
Hon. Member for Manchester, who stated that Scot-
land and Ireland were in favour of the measure, while
Lancashire, according to the inference he drew, was
opposed to it. Now, it appeared to him that a majo-
rity of the respectable manufacturers of Manchester
and other districts of Lancashire were in favour of
some protection to that department of their trade.
Mr. GREG explained.
Mr. L AI3OUC HERE said it was impossible to read
the evidence that had been taken before the Committee
on the subject without coming to the conclusion that
great injustice was done to those parties
who had invested their capital and energies
in the invention of new designs, from the
absence of all protection. He thought it
was the duty of the Government to afford both
protection and encouragement to those parties, by the
establishment of Schools of Design, and by Legislative
protection.---( Hear, heir.) On these grounds he
thought a ease had been made out for extending the
period of protection for the Copyright of Designs ; at the
same time he saw many inconveniences and difficulties
which such a step would be likely to create. lie made
especially a reference to their export trade. It was ad-
mitted that great diversity of opinion existed on the
subject among the manufacturers of Manchester.
Such being the case, they were naturally fearful of
going too far, and he thought it would be better that
the House should rather err upon the safe side. He
therefore was very unwilling to extend the period of
copyright beyond six months.—(Cheers.) He was
willin that the Bill should go into Committee, and
t. :re be had no doubt it woul Ibe found that its ma-
ch might easily be put into play. He hoped in
ti ae Committee that his Right Hon. Friend would be
e ,ble to convince the House that six months would be
idle proper period.
Mr. HUME was much astonished to
ihearltihtehoußiggliitt,
Hon. Gentleman talk in langua;e. which
exploded—he did not expect that he wouldie 1a
hear
any one in that House talk of Government protecting
trade and the exports of the country. It was natural
that the French should beat us, for their rop!e were
used from their infancy to the study of pictures and
s, 'atues, while our population were refused admission
im `o Westminster Abbey or the Royal Academy with-
out, Putting their hand into their pockets ; the poor
cool, I not do this, and the consequence was they Were
shut out from all chance of improving their taste.
Shoulo. we then complain of our inferiority in producing
designs t,lr those fabrics when ae shut out from all
means of lanprovi ng their taste the middle as well as
the lower chases of the community ? We were looking
to a remedy flu wo the wrong quarter. Every tine it had
been attemptc, to foster manufactures by protection, that
attempt failed more or less. The system of protection or
monopoly never was attended with any success!ul result.
He particular'. remembered oreinstlnce whiehstruck him
as remarkable. An Act of Parliament bad been passed
to encourage tbe use of buckles, and in less than {ice
years after the passing of that Act the use of buckles
had altogether ceased. The President of the Board of
Trade had rig!otly stated that it was quantity more than
anything else which extended our Calico trade, acid
that arose from the circumstance of the three months'
protection being a dead letter. It was on that account
that our manufactures prospered to so great an extent
as they had. If a real protecti on existed from the pc_
riod at which it was intended to give it to calico
manufactures, he (Mr. Hume) had no hesitation in
saying that we never would have commanded the ex-
tensive foreign trade which we now possessed. He
could not understand the distinction which had been
drawn by the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Warburton) be-
tween copyright in books and copyright in patterns.
Ile (Mr. Hume) would entreat the House,- before they
cecided hastily on the matter, to attend to the argu-
ments advanced on the subject by the Hon. Member
fine Manchester. Every fact stated by the Hon. Met-

~,~-'f

17

be to injure a branch of manufactures which was deci-
dedly prosperous, and which was even increasing in
prosperity ; and it his opinions had undergone any change
it was owing to the evidence which bad been adduced be-
fore that Committee. The question was not,then, whether
there should be a copyright or not. The law had decided
that by giving a protection for three months. But
in point of fact, that protection was perfectly ineffica-
cious If there was to be a protection at all, it was
clear that it should be extended to such a period as would
render it really advantageous. Now, while the protec-
tion lasted only for three months, the expense of de-
fending the privilege was so great, that no party would
undergo it on account of the shortness of the period.
He would not by any means deny that there were con
flitting considerations which would require the most"
ample discussion, before they determined the extent of
the term they were going to give ; but, on the ques-
tion of the second reading of the Bill, he should say
that a case had been made out for an additional protec-
tion of some kind, which it was almost impossible for
the House to resist. Many of the manufacturers exa-
mined before the Committee, stated that the number of
patterns printed for them amounted to two or three
thousand, while they only used five or six hundred ;
and out of these only forty or fifty were successful.
Such e system must entail great expense ; and yet,
after having undergone that expense, other parties
might step in and eyed themselves of their labours, by
fastening on any pattern which they aright think likely
to be seccesiful ; and all that without having incurred
:he slightest risk. Those competitors might afterwards
come and endeavour to outbid them in the market.
But that was not the whole case. Tue copyist might
bring the design into discredit by presenting it in an in-
ferior form, and on inferior goods.—( Hear, hear.) That
had exactly the same effect on the original design as
the mawkish im:t rtions of Byron and of Scott had on
the works of those writers. It tended to disgust the
public with the original productions. France had ad-
vantages which this country had not, and that might,
combined with an extended copyright, give them further
advantages still ; but if they exposed the original
designers to such gross injustice as that which had been
pointed out, might not, he would ask, its continuance
ha a great impediment to the improvement and the ad-
vaccement of :he arts of design 9 They withheld en-
couragement t ability and skill when they permitted
parties to take advantage of that skill and ability, and
to enter into competition with it. By granting an ex-
tended copyright, however, he did not think they
would be iaterterlog with free competition. What he
would stay was, let them have free comprthion—
permit the competitor to produce a design
equal to that with which he is competing,
but great injustice would be done to the original de-
aigner, if he was left exposed as he was by tic present
law. He should vote for the second reading of the Bid.
but at the same time he could not disguise from himself
the effect it might have upon manufacturers in this
country. He should not hold his opinions conclusive
upon the extent of the protection that ought to be
given ; hut what he should discuss was the question,
that if there was to be a copyright, it should be effica-
cious. To make it so, he thought the time should be
extended, but the extension of that time was a matter
of too much importance to be discussed then. Care
should be taken that that time should not be too long,
because if it were it might prejudice the British manu-
facturer. He thought; however, that the giving of time
merely for the purpose of making experiments, would
be open to great objection. He thought that they
should make up their minds as to the extent of the
time to which the term should be prolonged.
Mr. WARBURTON would vote for the second
reading of the Bill, because he agreed with the Right
Hon. Baronet in the reasonableness of the end pro-
posed—namely, to give reward to the inventor, and at
the same time to protect the manufacturer. When
they came to consider the details of that Bill, two
great difficulties would arise. One had been already
pointed out, namely, the great litigation which it would
cause. By not proposing a cheap mode of trying the
issue they lost the object for which the patent was
granted, for the wealthy manufacturer would be able to
tyrannise over the smaller ; the letter would in a general
snag be eomrselled to withdraw from the contest. I'',
therefore, they did not provide a cheap and expedi-
tious Court before which the parties could go, they
really did nothing ; and unless he saw such a remedy
provided, he should oppose the Bill of the Hon. Gen-
tleman is all its stages. But another difficulty arose
out of the very nature of the subject to be protected.
This manufacture had existed and been growing for
the last tarty or fifty years. In the case of chemical
or mecb anical inventions, they had records of all the
originahs from time immemorial. But, in the present
case, •no such records existed. 'They ought, therefore,
to be gin by giving ore or two years, to enable parties to '
heghster all patterns existing, or invented in past time,
so , order to ascertain whether any particular pattern
wa ;or was not original. The case was the same as if
th, ry were then, for the first time, seeking to establish I
pa tents for chemical and mechanical inventions, without
he ving any record of what had been done in past time.
T he greatest difficulty, therefore, in the present case, I,
at .ese out of the subject to which it was proposed to give
p atent rights. They had no record of the inventions
fo r the list forty or fifty years. How then was the
el aim of the alleged inventor to be established 9
(' Hear, hear.) There should be a record to which the
Jt edges could refer in case of dispute. But there was
y€ t another difficulty arising out of this Bill. Whilst it
pr ohibited English manufacturers in this country front
copying a foreign, there was nothing to prohibit a
foreign manufacturer from copying an English patent.
Hear,, hear.) It appeared to him (Mr. Warburton) ,
irtdiliPethsable, in order to carry out the principle, that
there sbould be an international copyright.—(Hear,
he tr.) He would, on another occasion, examine saps-
rat, ely the clauses of the Right Hon. Gent'eman's Bill,
but it appeared to him that the difficulties which he bad
stet led_ deserved the serious consideration of the House.
Th eßight Hon. Baronet stated that the principle had
he an already conceded, and, therefore, that they ought

1 ber went to show the pernicious tendency of the Bill
now sought to be passed. He (Mr. Hume) would op-
pose the second reading of the Bill ; and he trusted the
House would not retrace the steps it had been so lately
taking of doing away with monopoly and patronage, by
now sanctioning so great an absurdity as an attempt to
improve manufactures by a system of protection. He
agreed with his Hon. Friend (Mr. Warburton) that the
details could never be carried out, and on that ground
he would vote against the second reading of the Bill.
Mr. E WART said be believed that in the Commit-
tee the copyright was agreed to by only a majority of
one.—(No, no.)
Mr. E. TENNENT had been appealed to. and he
could assure the Hon. Member that the decision was
come to by a majority of six to three.
Mr. EWART believed that the real principle was
decided by the casting vote of the Chairman. He was
opposed to the Bill, because ha feared that if it became
the law of the land they would shut themselves out
from being the great suppliers of the worn. He thought
national taste was only to be improved by education,
and a free entrance into places where works of art were
exhibited. He was of opinion that the whole subject
should be gone into, and that they should not legislate
piecemeal upon it. He thought they ought to pause
in their legislation, for he did not think that protection
would be of any use; patterns would be so closely copied,
3et with a marked distinction, that in fact the pro-
prietor would not be benefited. He certainly should
prefer the shorter period.
Mr. GODSON wishel to set the Hon. Member
right as to the decision of the Committee in favour of
the Extension of Copyright. The resolution was
carried not by a majority of one but of Leven to one.
Mr. EWART explained.
Mr. MUNTZ was surprised to hear from the Hon.
Memb r for Manchester, that the protection was
useless to the inventart, whereas the fact was, that the
most enterprising manufacturers in the country owed
all their wealth to the protection, such as it was, that

the present law afforded to them. He would support
the Bill, because he thought it was both just and pru-
dent for the Legiilature to give that degree of protec-
tion which would induce ingenious men to devote their

time to the intent on of designs.
Mr. E. TENNENT would not occupy the time of
the House by discussing the principle of the Bill on
this occasion. He would be happy to avail bimself of
the offer of the Vice-President of the Board of Trade,
and to make, with the Right Hon. Gentleman's as-
sistance, the provisions of the measure as perfect and
comprehensive as possible.
Tee Bill was then read a second time.

. Mr. E. TENNENT said, that the amendments
suggested by the Vice• President of the Board of Trade
would require much consideration, and he should
therefore move the committal of the Bill pro forma on
Friday night next, when be would give notice of his fur-
ther intentions respecting the promotion of the measure,
THE CONSTABULARY BILL.

Mr. HODGES, in moving that the House
go into Committee upon the Constabul try Bill,
said, that the second reading of the Bill
had passed without opposition, on the understanding
that the discussion should be taken at this stage. It
had since bean suggested to him that the Bill was un-
necessary, on account of the peaceable state of the
country, and that his measure was susperseded by the
Rural Police Bill. But there was nothing. in the pre-
Feat Bill which would at all interfere with that Act. The
question was a very important one, and excited great in-
terest out of doors. He hoped, therefore, that the
House would not object to the motion for going into
Committee.

Mr. FOX MAULE said that he was then about to
st ite those objections to the measure, which he should
have submitted to the House on the motion for the
second reading, we-e it not for the understanding come
to on the subject. He was persuaded that his Hon.
Friend had introduced the measure with the best in-
tentions, but he thought that he wa4 altogether mis-
taken in the views he entertained. A Bill had been
formerly passed on the same subject in 1839 ; and
though that Bill eonta►ined some defects it had been
materially improved in the course of last Session. The
County Constabulary were now under the control of a
Chief Constable responsible for the conduct of
fie men ; and that system gave great satisfaction.
Besides the authorities in counties were now enabled to
appoint special constables of their own whenever that
might be required. These were great improvements
on the old system. No doubt the -present Act led to
considerable expense, but he thought that expense was
attended with corresponding advantages. He felt that
the Bill of his Hon. Friend would completely overturn
the enactments of 1839 and 1840, and unnecessarily
unsettle the law on a very important subject. He
would therefore move that the House should go into
Committee on that day six months.
Mr. MILES thought that the proposed measure
would be a material improvement on the old Consta-
bulary Bill.
Mr. GISBORNE objected to the committal of the
Bill. It could not be denied that the old constables
were inefficient, but he thought the new rural police
would be found to be perfectly sufficient for all purposes
required. If the present measure was carried it would I
interfere with the law now in existence, and would
effect nn real public benefit. He thought the experi-
ment of the law at present in existence had not been
sufficiently tried.
General JOHNSTONE supported the Bill going
into Committee, as he had not beard one argument
against it. He believed the provisions of the BIL
would very much improve the condition of the consta-
bulary force throughout the country.
Colonel RUSHBROOK supported the Bill.

Mr. RICE objected not onlito the principle of the
Bill, but he felt sorry that the discussion of it had
prevented a more efficient measure being brought in.
Mr. T. EGERTON supported the Bill because it
was founded upon the same principle as the Bill that
had worked so well in the county which be represented
for twelve or thirteen years.
Mr. SANFORD opposed the Bill going into
Committee, believing that no measure was necessary
upon the subject.
Mr. BRUGES supported the Bill. The measure
of 1829 was well suited to particular districts ; but
the Bill before the House applied more extensively.
With regard to the expense, the rural police could
not be efficient unless they were established upon an
extensive scale, and it must, therefore, be attended
with a considerable expenditure.
Mr. E. TURNER supported the Bill because it
gave legitimate authority to Magistrates in the appoint-
ment of constables.
Mr. HODGES briefly replied.
The House the.' divided, when there appeared—
For going into Committee 36
Against it
Majority against going into Committee —22
PUNISHMENT OF DEATH BILL.

Mr. KELLY said that es it was not convenient
to enter into a discussion on his Bill at that late hour of
the night, he should content himself with moving tlie
second reading.
The Bill was then read pro forma, and ordered to
be committed that day fortnight.
LEASE AND RELEASE BILL.

The Lease and Release Bill went through Ccm.
mittee.

COUNTY COURTS' BILL.

On the motion for going into Committee on the
County Courts' Bill,
Mr. FOX MAULE stated, that although there
wa3 a clause providing for any deficiency which
might occur out of the Consolidated Fund, he did
not anticipate that any deficiency would arise ; but
male s there was a clause to that effect, there was
a risk that the Judges might not receive their salaries.
Col. SIBTHORP made some observations which
were very inaudible, but we understood him to taunt
the Hon. Member for Kilkenny for not opposing that
part of the Bill which relates to the paying of the
Judges out of the Consolidated Fund.

Mr. HUME was anxious to be economical, but when
the justice of the country was concerned, he would
never throw any difficulties in the way of a full consi-
deration of the measure. They were not pledging
themselves to one shilling, for probably the fees of the
Courts would pay all expenses.
The House then went into Committee, Mr. BERNAL
in the Chair.

On the Resolution that the House would make up
any deficiency that might accrue,
Mr. HUME inquired whether the Government bad
yet made up their minds as to the salary to be given to
the Judges.
Mr. F. MAULE said the salary would depend upon
the amount of labour attached to the office—in no case
would it more than 1,5001.
The Resolution was then agreed to, to be reported
on Friday.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of,
and the House Adjourned.