The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-09 00:00:00

CUSTOMS DUTIES BILL.

In reply to a question from Lord G. BENTINCK,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXt;HEQUER stated
that he should be prepared to proceed with this Bill on
Friday week.
LANDED PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL.

On the motion for the House-going into Committee on
this Bill,

Mr. HUME roaelto inquire when the Bill for lending
money to tenants would be proceeded with. He was at
a loss to know why so much delay had taken place in
bringing it forward.
Lord J. RUSSELL understood the Hon. Gentleman
to allude to the Bill for affording landlords the means of
selling encumbered estates.
Mr. HUME said that was the Bill to which he alluded.

Lord J. RUSSELL said the Bill was one which re-
quired the most careful consideration, and besides the
Government bad experienced great difficulty with re-
-1 spect to many of its provisions. The Bill, how-
ever, had been prepared, and would be shortly brought
into the other House by the Lord Chancellor, and would
have all the benefit of his authority on the subject. It
would be afterwards brought into that House, and with
as little delay as possible.
Lord DUNCAN wished to know if the Bill, with re-
spect to encumbered property, was also to apply to
Scotland?—(Laughter.)
Sir. G. GREY said the subject was under the con-
sideration of the Lord-Advocate, and that he would
bring forward a Bill on the stAject without delay.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL hoped that the Bill with
respect to Ireland would be first proceded
MEASURES OF RELIEF FOR IRELAND.

Mr. ROEBUCK rose to make the motion of which he
bad given notice. It was that any plans of relief fur
the distress of the Irish poor, by means of loans to the
owners of property in Ireland, would be unjust and
impolitic, unless accompanied by a system of taxation
which would subject such property to the burdens al-
ready imposed upon all property throughout Great Bri-
tain. He said he was utterly at a loss to know what
argument was wanted on the present occasion beyond
stating the question. The proposition he had to wake
was, that in any system of taxation proposed for Ireland,
the principle should be precisely the same as that pursued
in England. He could not understand how they could
object to this proposition. The matter was exceedingly
simple, and he did not see why any reasonable
opposition should be made to it. He was pre-
pared, and well prepared, to meet opposition from
the Members for Ireland—from both parties belong-
ing to that country he expected not only opposition,
but abuse. Still, as the mceion would call up opponents
iu the quarter he had stated, he thought it was his duty
to take note of whatever arguments which be thought
were likely to be advanced against it. Before he
came to the arguments that were to be expect( d
from the Irish opponents of the proposition he would
deal with the rational objections that might be urged.
It was clear that the interests and obligations of both
England and Ireland were the same. The artizan, the
merchant, and the landed proprietor, all subscribed to
the general exchequer, while the p, ople of Ireland
were exempted from many of the taxes that wale
imposed on these. In comparing the taxation of the
two countries he found that there were three great dis-
tinct branches of taxation from which Ireland was ex-
empted. The assessed taxes was one. Now what were
assessed taxes ? They were taxes on houses, win-
dows, horses, servants, arms, and a variety of
other articles of a similar character ; yet the
gentry of Ireland paid none of these. When
he crossed the Channel, he found the gentlemen
of Ireland, with perhaps their twenty servants, with
their horses, and their carriages, and they paid no tax
for either ; and when the Irish gentlemen crossed
the Channel, he was altogether free from any
claim which would diminish his resources, when
he wanted to make a display. He (Mr.
Roebuck) knew that in Ireland it was a painful thing to
tax display, for it constituted one-half of that country's
pleasure.—(Hear, hear.) He would proceed now to the
poor-law. Ireland was exempt from the necessity for
supporting her poor. The gentleman in Ireland, the
artizan, and the trader in Ireland, were exempt from
that which every English gentleman, aye, and every
Englishman, felt to be his duty,.namely, to maintain the
poor—(Hear, hear)—but the Irish gentleman, the Irish
artizan, and the Irish merchant, all thought that a
matter truly and entirely beneath their consideration.
(Hear, hear). The Irishman had nothing to do with
the poor; therefore, in Ireland, they were exempt from
this tax. An English gentleman, or it might
be a Scotch gentleman, had promulgated a sen-
timent which should have struck the death-blow
to display in Ireland. It was this, that " property may
have its duties as well as its rights." That sentiment
had been responded to in every English bosom, but he
wanted the respouse from Ireland, and he got none.
That which should have returned it was corrupted and
spoiled, the sounding board was good for nothing,
and they got no response from Ireland. But the good
feeling of the people of England, assisted by the good
feeling of the people of Scotland, would bring a response
from Ireland. But there was nothing of the sort as
yet; the rich had escaped from any tax
to provide either for the poor or the ge-
neral necessities of the state. He asked hat pro-
perty should be taxed in Ireland as well as in England—
he asked it in the name of all that was good—or ail that
was humane—of all that was just—heasked the Irish pro.
proprietor to bring his quota to the national t xchequer for
the purpose of meeting the national expenditure. What
was his (Mr. Roebuck's) proposition? It was simply
this, that every man in Ireland wh s earned 1501. a year
from land, or from his own intellects, or from trade,
should be taxed as in England. He knew the tax was
in some degree unequal, but what was sauce for the
goose was sauce for the gander.—(Hear, hear).
His answer to the Hon. Gentleman was, " pray be
honest in your generation, the debt which you owe
is a debt due to the nation, that is, a debt whichyou have
not paid, and I find you mightily
tl-
pay; and for the non-payment «ircl,, tea
find a great many pretext:;
;
blessn,T, of God, we v, ill see what
3
Tne Hens would see how they did their
are made $3%.'
duty, snd when
they threatened that House with "repeal," let these
gentlemen beware that the_ _House and the country did
not give them " repeal."—(Cheers.) Let them bewure
that those who were now loudest for repeal were not
overwhelmed by the terms they ?Joked lor.--(Cheers.)

Oh, there is :(said the Hon. Member) that coming of
which Ireland will know and feel, the commencement of
which I have seen. There has been nothing so small as
the almost whhipeting song of the repealers in this
Housa anti in this country sirce real calamity has been
impend.: over their country. Was there ever such a
spectacle esiihited ? A people, with its leaders,
who, in its time of prosperity and wealth, were
all ter sea-government ; for repeal ; all against the
Saxon, all for the Celt! It has pleased God to visit
them with a famine ; at once all this hurly burly ceases.
Th. re sas an utter, a complete prostration of body and
mod ninon" the whole of her rampant and turbulent
(mature. They had nothing to propose, all to ask for ;
their whole limbs and bodies—everything except their
tongues—were inert and useless; and with their tongues
th y cried " Give, give." They had nothing to 'pro-
po,e but the dictator to the Saxon. The Celt crept into
his hidine-place, and all that was heard of him was a
whispering voice supplicating the aid of the Saxon.
Such Was a true picture of a thorough-going repealer.—
(Cheers.) Whin, however, be (Mr. Roebuck)
turned to England, what was the contrast ?
saw, to lire the language of Milton. "a
great nati,,n bearing its ills with a fortitude which corn-
neouls and with a perseverance which wins
a:.d enianours." But was that true of Ireland? lie
red ,etee lucubrations which bad appeared in the
pages of the Alerniny Chronicle, contaieed in a letter
w I teen co Lot d Russel. The writer of that letter was a
Meru!), r of that House, and that House was the proper place
for his prop, sitar's for the regeneration of the coon-
ry to be b: ought forward. Wby should they go to the
I\ We Lord? Was the House to depend upon them?
God forbid. They must learn to depend upon themselves.
Let him tell us their wants. Let him tell us what was
wanted for his country. Let him come there and explain
to them abet was really necessary for the welfare of Ire-
land.— (Hear.) The lion. Gentleman the Member f,r
Limerick said " Hear." He knew what that Hon.
Gentleman meant. He was going to propose repeal.
He taw it in the Hon. Member's eye.—(Great
laughter.) But the Honourable Gentleman would
propose something for the benefit of Ireland which he
knew would not bo carried ; but he would tell
the Honourabie Gentleman that the time might
come when it would be adopted—(Hear, hear)—
and nobody would so thoroughly rue it as those who
now cheered it. Let any Irish gentleman propose
what was required for Ireland. and if it were reasonable
and jusa and rational, it would be passed; but if present
proceedings were carried on one step further, it might
happen that England would cut the rope that connects
Ireland, and allow her to drift on the waters of misery,
and die unaided and uncared for.—(Hear, hear.) He
had occupied a position in Irish debate—
A VOICE—" A very unenviable one."
Mr. ROEBUCK—Among those persons who came to
him were some Irish Catholic priests. (He hoped the
Honourable Member for Kilkenny would listen.)
The Rev. Dr. Collier was the name of one—
he tied their tames with their own consent
and the ee her was the Rev. Mr. M'Carthy. They came
from Mallow, and they said that they were deputed
from the Catholic priests. And what was their first
statement to him? After he had asked them to be,
seated—(A laugh)—they said, " We do not believe that
the gentlemen in the House of Commons coming from
Ireland represent Ireland." He (Mr. Roebuck) said
" Sir, I am extremely glad to hear it.—(Loud laughter.)
" Sir," said they. " they are the representatives of pro-
perty in lrelatio. We are conversant with the feelings
of the people, from moving among them and mixing
with them, and we are deputed to tell you the
feelings of the Irish people.) Sir:" " said they,
"do not listen to one Word that is said by them
in the House of Comons about Ireland."—(Hear,
hear.) He (Mr. Roebuck) said, " I shall religiously
obey your instructions."—(Loud laughter.) These en-
tlemen said, " They do not represent the poor people of
that country, they represent the rich," and they were
following out most carefully the peculiar interest of the
rich chs,es of the people. He would tell the House
why. these gentlemen had stated before they began.
Thoy said, "We will give you the perfect opportu-
nity and authority to use our names in this
statement," &c. They then continued, " Round 'Mal-
low there are a number of gentlemen of large property
—(they gave him the names, but he had forgotten them,
and they had promised to send him a list, but they did
rot)—there are six gentlemen of about ten thou-
sandedadmfn:
eedrtndhb, se‘
y. bt
starvation)—we
cteearoricppNo.
ltarei
tooi
coroners'
ens
ws
s_ef,roiemrn 2
utahhebaessvtosel reliefubttheeeelyyn
ponnds per annum each; we have been round
e
f
orwstootft,turrntevhsditesnasttgraeovtaeatgtdhtieet(nh,str:teol_egtmhien(atn.i.a,nei
and from every one of them
we asked for relief for their starving brethren, and from
none of them did we get anything but the minutest
trifle tor the purpose.' There was a heartiness in the
manner of the rev. gentlemen, which he rather liked ;
in fact, it won upon him. It was not what he had seen
as usually comin from Ireland. His eyes twinkled as
he spoke to him. " Sir," continued the Rev. Gentleman,
" one of those gentlemen has seventy dogs living on
good meal and milk, while every morning
anti every day there are coroners' inquests
held almost at that man's gate." He (Mr. Roe-
buck)
,said, "My God ! sir, do you tell me
that this is the fact!" and he said, " Sir, you know who
I am. I have stated to you this fact, and you can give
my name." This had passed within a few miles of
Mallow, and men had died from starvation, while dogs
lived. He appealed, not to Irishmen in that House,
but lie appealed to his own countrymen—he raised his
voice to the whole of England and Scotland, and he
asked if' they were pn pared to hear this thing? He
would say that it could not be done, and be knew that
when he said that it should not be done, the voices of
millions would be raised in confirmation. But then
if these Irish landlords were this class of men
—he did not know why they should be
such a class of men—they were made so by the system
of legislation. They were a class very much like the
slave holder. He would call them white slave holders.
Their unfortunate country had been conquered, and
this country was the conqueror, and its iron grasp
had caused to a great extent the evil now felt.
They carried out the bias—the feeling of oppression
which once rankled in English hearts with respect to
Ireland—but there is no such feeling in England now.—
(Cheers). It has gone from the hearts of the con-
querurs, but it rests in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) There-
fore he wished the English people to have a
" strong hold" on those Irish landlords. It should be
so in all things connected with the poor, and, as he said
at the commencement of the session, " we will mort-
gage the land of Ireland for the support of the Irish
Poor." They hall done immense injury to the poor of
Ireland by protecting the landlords ot Ireland; but this
state of things could exist no longer. They shal
maintain their own poor—they shall contribute to the
maintenance of the indigent in a proper way. Now,
he would ask the Noble Lord, what objection he had
to his proposition ? He said that was not the time to
make it. Why ? " Oh," he said, " the Irish
landlords have not received their rents." Now,
an Honourable Friend, conversant with the sub-
ject, had informed him that Irish landlords received
their rents very well just now. He was sure the Hon.
Gentleman would not object to his pointing him out.—
(The Hon. Gentleman pointed towards the door of the
ll,)use, but we could not discern the Hon. Member to
whom he referred.) It was true, in some districts the
rents might not have been received; but they
had been received throughout tho majority.—
(An Hon Member—" No, nor) All he could say was,
that the Hon. Member was one of those who had not
received his rents; but nothing was more easy than to
prove who had. Let all the gentlemen connected with
public companies and with land, state what they had
received, and let an income-tax be imposed
on all who received 1501., as in England.
But it was said that the Irish proprietors had influence
with the Cabinet on this question, because a great pro-
portion of the Government were themselves owners of
Irish property. It was stated that the Administration
were favourable to the claims of the Irish party, and
that they did not in reality wish the Irish property to be
made r sponsible fur the relief of Irish distress. They
outside of the Cabinet knew all about it. The Times
newspaper had been the great Bude light which had
revealed the secret workings and feelings of the Govern-
ment. It was thilefore necessary that he should state ell
about it. It was necessary, in order to show how their
feelings went, to inform them that the Marquis ofh Lans-
downe, one of the Cabinet, was a principalo
pro-
prietorot
and that the Earl of Clarendon, her met/iber
a
should further state that Lord Mont
ot the Cabinet was the same. It wueagnieec,ewsshaor,yifthoaotthae
He might also
laughter)—was also a landed prdopyi
was beating at tbe door footroar.dmHission—(Loud
Minister,
advent to o
state that another Naoebtle
ELoarropern tahe
sChaabkiinnegt: whose
as
the
Lord Palmerston. He might also name
_ who,
also an Irish landed proprietor. He meant
Duke of Devonshire and another NoblehleLord,_
influence
over not in the Cabinet, had considerable
opvrieertoirt—s
ahrelaa meant Earl Fitzwilliam ho wereiufl
how the latter Noble Earl hadfor Lynn,
and
se that
din Ireland. Thesupported
House—
nn, how
wwt
hoeulgdrarneccloet
the knowledge of that fact had
pro-
ject of the Noble Lord the Memberdemor faooryLtyo
surmise
to declare in its favour.
the Government would have
Memle
With these, as members of the Government, or influenc-
ing its decisions, he (Mr. Roebuck) could realise the
feelings of the Noble Lord the Member for
Lynn, when he asked for sixteen millions, but
other influences had proved stronger, and he
ani they had to succumb. Still the declaration of the
2.1,,b1e Lord (Earl Fitzwilliam) showed the feeling
which animitild these Irish proprietors. One more
instance he might give, though the nobleman
he would now name, he must say, bore an excellent and
admirable character that was Lord Besborotgb.
He was likewise an Irish proprietor. He could give
more; but with this, as connected with the Govern-
ment, he weuld ask, was it decent, was it just to
the people ot E..el4nd to a: k exemption t-orn the burdens
itnpie,eit ott the United Kingdom? He had always given
the Noble dat the head of the Government credit for
courage, he hail thought him brave; and he agreed with
him for this, though he liked his policy almost in nothing
else; but he must deny him even this quality, if he
gave way to the Irish landlords on the poor-law
He would tell the Noble Lord what they would do ; appeal to
the country and outvote him.—(Hear, hear.) He was cer-
tain of carrying a majority against the Noble Lord. He had
never spoken so strongly before in that House, but be felt
strongly upon the subject. The Noble Lord had not satis-
factorily explained his intentions upon this question. The
manner—as if
answer to the question which he (Mr. Roebuck) had put was
given in an off-hand manner—a sort of festive
it cor.cirred not the lives of the people of this country. It was
not the fi at tuestion which he (Mr. Roebuck) had put this
session which had been answered for the.m
same reason. They
had a Chancellor oi the Exchequer fighting against the First
Lord of the Treasury on the most vital questions affecting
the lives of eight millions of her Majesty's subjects. He
must say that the whole Ministry put him in mind
of a story whick had been told him by an old sailor about the
Agamemnon. She was in se rotten a condition, that when
they took her into port and drew the water from her eke

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