The Sun.
London, England, 1841-05-12 00:00:00

ARMS (IRELAND) BILL.

Lord DUNCANNON moved the second reading of
the Arms (Ireland) Bill. lie said it was considered ne-
cessary to renew, for another year, this measure, which
was now about to expire. The only alteration that had
been made in it since last year was, that any person wish-
ing to register arms should give ten days' notice.
After some verbal amendments, the Bill was read a
second time.

Lord DUN CANNON then.moved the second reading
of the Dublin Wide Streets Bill.
After a few words from the Earl of WICKLOW, in
approbation of the measure, the Bill was read a second
time.

SLAVES' COMPENSATION.
On the motion of Lord DUNCANNON, the Slaves'
Compensation Bill was read a second time, the object of the
Bill being to enable the Government to settle the claims
still remaining without reference to an arbitrator.
Messengers from the Commons brought up the Pol-
loc and Govan Railway Bill, and several other Bills.
The Administration of Justice (Borough's) Bill was
laid on the table by the Marquis of NORMANBY. The
Bill was ordered to be read a second time on Friday.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition
from Dublin, praying that Liverpool should be made the
station for the West India packets.
The Noble MARQuis presented also several petitions
from Ireland, on the subject of Medical Reform, and the
remuneration of medical officers to workhouses, and
other public institutions.
The School Sites' Conveyance Bill then went through
Committee, in which several verbal amendments were
agreed to, on the motion of Lord DUNCANNON.
Lord MOUNTCASHEL begged to ask, whether there
was any clause excluding Ireland from the operation of
the Bill ?

The Marquis of LANDSDOWNE said that there was
no clause to that effect, but he intended to move the
insertion of one, for that purpose, in a future stage of
the Bill ; and to bring in a separate Bill for Ireland.
The Bill was then reported and ordered to be printed
with the amendments. To be read a third time on
Thursday.
INTEREST ON PROMISSORY NOTES.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE then moved for a
Select Committee to inquire into the amount of interest
now payable by law upon promissory notes. He would
not now go into a statement of his own views upon their
operation, but he would trouble their Lordships with a few
words upon the present state of the law. In the 4th of
William IV., upon certain representations from the
Bank of England, promissory notes under six months'
date were taken out of the usury laws. In the
Ist of Victoria, the exemption was extended to all
bills under twelve months' date. That Act would
expire towards the end of 1840, but in that year an Act
was passed to continue the experiment for two or
three years. The object of the inquiry did not re-
late to the expediency of bills of exchange, or to
usury generally, but to the expediency of giving a
certain facility to the advancement of money, upon cer-
tain kinds of bills, by allowing a higher rate of interest
than usual upon them in some cases.
Lord ASHBURTON was understood to say that he
was by no means unfavourable to inquiry, as his own
ideas on the subject were quit': unfixed, but he had
rather the inquiry were postponed for another year, when
there would be sufficient experience of the present law.
After a few words from the Marquis of LANDS-
DOWNE the motion (with a slight alteration) was
agreed to, and the Committee was appointed.
CORN-LAWS.

The Earl of FITZWILLIAM presented petitions
from places in Staffordshire, against the present Corn-
laws.

The Earl of RADNOR postponed till to-morrow the
motion for returns respecting importation of corn, of
which he had given notice for this evening. The Noble
Lord, however, read a number of returns from the
year 1810 down to last year, in confirmation of his state-
ment last evening that Scotland had of late years been
supplied with corn and gots from Ireland to a large
amount, and that the exportation of grain from Ireland
had been gradually diminishing for years. This
diminution, he contended, was attribiltal'l4', solely to
bad seasons, but in a great measure to incre:•.=-rd con-
sumption at home.
The Earl of HADDINGTON had not denied tk4;
grain was imported into Scotland. What he said was
that corn was imported into this country from Scotland,
the corn received by the latter country from this being
chiefly for the purpose of seed. There was also a large
quantity of the finest our for confectionery and the
like exported (especilffly from Hertfordshire) to Scot-
land. But this bore no proportion to the whole con-
sumption.
Lord MONTEAGLE said that the argument of his
Noble Friend (Earl Radnor) was complete, and
showed from the Custom-house returns, which could
not be impeached or disputed, that Scotland had
lately become on importing cOz:ntry to a much
greater extent than an exporting one. In four of the
years referred to in the returns, cotland impo.i!ed more
wheat than the rest of the United Kingdom.
The Earl of HADDINGTON begged to ask if the
Noble Lord (Radnor) meant to say that Scotland imported
121,000 quarters more than she exported ?
The Earl of RADNOR said that was precisely what
he meant.—(Hear, hear.) He believed the returns were
correct in showing the excess of imported -corn above
the exported to be of that large amount, but he was not
prepared to take his oath of it.—(A laugh.) •
The Earl of GLENGALL said that the diminution of
the exportation of wheat from Ireland arose from the
same cause as the diminished excise upon distilled spirits
in that couutry. The people had taken to drink tea or
coffee instead of spirits ; and with these beverages they
ate a great deal of bread, which was a kind of food they
never thought of before.—(Hear.)
The Earl of RADNOR was very glad to hear so satis-
factory a cause assigned for a diminution in the export.
Lord ASHBURTON deprecated those irregular dis-
cussions of so important a question. He believed that
he was misunderstood in an observation which he made
last night, and which was to the effect that the improve-
ments in agriculture would enable our own farmers to
supply the population, with the exception of occasional
years of scarcity, for which it wag the great merit and
utility of the present system of Corn-laws to provide a
relief.—(Hear, hear.) Although it was true that on one
occasion wheat did rise so high as 955. a quarter,
.v-et, making allowance for the vicissitudes of the seasons,
the price had maintained a most remarkable steadiness
since the establishment of the present law.—(Hear, hear.)
Before he sat down he must observe that he never ar-
gued that law prices, arising from a good harvest, were
an injury to the farmer, because the latter was indem-
nified by the abundance of his crop.—(Hear, hear.) It
was quite a different thing when the low price was occa-
sioned by the competition of the foreigner.—(Hear.)
The Earl of WICKLOW said that the figures read by
the Noble Lord (Radnor) opposite were his own figures,
and were not of equal authority with those which other
Noble Lords had read in reply from papers on the table
of the House. He deprecated the unfairness of coming
down prepared for discussions of this question by details,
without giving such notice as would enable other Noble
Lords to prepare a reply.—(Hear, hear.)
The Earl of RADNOR said that as Noble Lords
seemed to doubt the statement of figures, which he made
last night from memory, he had consulted the papers
from which he had taken them a year ago, and he only
referred to them this evening to confirm what he said
last night. Those papers were contained in the blue
book at that moment in the hands of a Noble Earl (Glen-
gall) poposite—(A laugh)—whose statement confirmed
his, and gave him great satisfaction, showing that
there had been for six or seven years a rapidly in-
creasing diminution of the export of corn from Ireland,
occasioned by the increase of home consumption.
The Duke of 'WELLINGTON regretted that no no-
tice had been given of the intention of bringing on a
discussion of this question. Reference had been made to
former speeches of his Noble Friend (Lord Ashbur-
ton) and others on general questions of free trade, as if
the same principle applied to this question. Why, the
vcvy first writer who introduced the doctrine of free trad
in this country (Adam Smith) expressly excluded corn
from the application of his principles.—(Hear, hear.)
Adam Smith emphatically laid it down that care should
be taken that the subsistence of the people should not be
left to depend on the industry or good will of other na-
' tions.—(Hear, hear.) He (the Duke of 'Wellington) was
still of opinion that if agriculture was to be continued in
this country, the protection must be maintained, and the
ictslay, that according to his efficacious and just.
Earl id
present
E systemrr zw tLplrfle‘‘
re-
collection, what Adam Smith stated on the subject of
the Corn-laws of his day was, that he found those laws
very much in favour with corn-dealers and merchants,
perfectly

On the motion that the Report of the Committee on
the Kidderminster Small Tenements Bill be brought up,
Mr. PRYME objected to the reception of the Report,
on the ground that the effect of the Bill, as it then stood,
would be to disfranchise many municipal electors, by ra-
ting the landlords of small tenements instead of the occu-
piers. When the Bill was first introduced, it contained a
clause preserving all Parliamentary and Municipal fran-
chises to those who were at present entitled to them ; that
clause had been struck out in Committee, and consequent-
ly the Bill would have a disfranchising effect. On that
ground he should move that the Report be received that
day six months.
Mr. GODSON had wished that clause to be retained,
and if the Hon. Member would withdraw his amend-
ment, he would on the third reading bring up a clause,
which would be a re-insertion of the clause struck out
in Committee.

Mr. BERNAL, as Chairman of the Committee, had
considered it doubtful how far such a clause could le-
gally take effect, and had therefore thought it best to
strike it out.

After a short conversation, Mr. PRYME withdrew his
amendment, on the understanding that the clause should
be introduced on the third reading. The Report was
then brought up.
The Newcastle-upon-Tyne and Carlisle Railway Bill
was read a second time.

The Lords' Amendments to the Liverpool Gas Bill
were agreed to.
The Lords' Amendments to the Northern and Eastern
Railway Deviation Bill were agreed to.
The Wells and Highbridge Roads Bill, and the Rox-
burgh and Dumfries Roads Bill, were respectively read
a third time and passed.
Mr. GILLON presented a petition from a place in
Forfar, in favour of the repeal of the bread-tax.
Sir E. KERRISON presented similar petitions.
Mr. WARD presented a petition from Sheffield in
favour of the abolition of Church-rates ; also a petition
from the same place, which, in the course of three hours,
had received 13,370 signatures, praying that the Corn
and Provision-laws might be repealed, and that the
whole system of the Import Duties might be revised.
Mr. BROTHERTON presented 16 petitions for the
repeal of the Corn-laws, from different parts of Lanca-
shire and Staffordshire ; also 15 petitions from the opera-
tives of different parts of these counties.
Sir JOHN NEELD presented petitions from different
parts of Northamptonshire against any alteration in the
Corn-laws.

Mr. EASTHOPE presented upwards of eighty peti-
tions from different parts of England for the abolition
of Church-rates, and the extinction of Ecclesiastical
Courts.

Mr. EVANS presented several petitions from Baptist
congregations in Leicester, to the same effect. _ _

WALLACEMr. W presented a petition from the Sugar
refiners of Glasgow in favour of the Government propo-
sition for the repeal of the duty on Sugar.
Mr. LANGDALE presented two petitions from con-
gregations of Baptists in Stone, praying for the admis-
sion of Dissenting Ministers to poor-houses.
Sir W. YOUNG presented petitions from various
places in Bucks, against an alteration of the Corn-laws.
Sir R.. INGLIS, on behalf of the Hon. Member for
Liverpool, presented a petition from the Town Council of
the B9rough of Liverpool, praying that Liverpool may
be appointed the mail-packet station for the West Indies.
The Hon. Member presented 29 petitions in favour of
Church Extension.

Sir G. STICKLAND presented a petition from the
county of York, praying for the abolition of Church-
rates, and of the jurisdiction of the Ecclesiastical Courts.
Colonel SALWEY presented a petition from the in-
habitants of Mirch Wenlock, in Salop, praying that the
Corn-laws may be immediately and entirely abolished.
Also petitions to the same effect from the working men
in the employ of Messrs. Macmichael and Grierson, car-
pet-manufacturers, Bridgenorth ; from the working men
in the employ of Messrs. Southwell, carpet-manufactur-
ers, Bridgenorth ; and from the working men in the em-
ploy of Mr. Josiah Griffiths, of Quatford, in the county
of Salop.
Mr. BAINES presented a petition from the merchants,
bankers, and manufacturers of Leeds, in favour of the
measures introduced by her Majesty's Government, for
the reduction of the duties on Sugar and Timber, and
for the amelioration of the duties on Corn, from several
bodies of workmen in Leeds, in favour of a repeal of
the Corn-laws. The Hon. Member also presented petitions
to the same from three places in Yorkshire ; also petitions
from the Wesleyan Methodists, Protestant Dissenters,
Baptists, and Independants of Leeds, prayingfor the aboli-
tion of Church-rates ; also a petition, signed by 25,485 of the
inhabitants of Leeds, praying for the abolition of the
Corn-laws.
Mr. RICH presented petitions from the builders, brass-
founders, and other trades of Manchester, against the
Corn-laws ; also a petition from Knaresborough, in
favour of tiN reduction of the duties on sugar, timber,
and corn.
Mr. BERKELV?: presented 15 petitions from Dissent-
-11;1 Congregations in 3ristol, praying for the abolition of
Church-rates and EcclesLitical Courts ; also a petition
from a pizee in Gloucestershi;e9 to the same effect ; and
a petition from the Chamber of Commerce of Bristol,
against the alteration of the duty on timber.
Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE presented a ftetition from Not-
tingham in favour of the repeal of the Corn-laws ; and
another from the medical practitioners of the same place,
praying for medical reform.
Mr. B. WOOD presented petitions from the Dissent-
ing Congregations of Shadwell, Peckham, Clerkenwoll.
and other places in the Metropolis, praying for the abo-
lition of Church-rates.
Mr. THORNELY presented a petition to the same
effect from the Dissenters of South Shields.
Mr. PATTESON presented similar petitions from
'Dissenting Congregations in London.
gy-. T. DUNCOMBE gave notice, that on Tuesday.
the 25th !)f. May, he should move an humble address to
her Molest); praYing that her Majesty would be gra-
ciously pleased tom'` take measures for the liberation of all
political offenders nosw suffering imprisonment.
C HIJ 7.XH-R AT ES.
ition o
bf rat Church-es and
Petitions praying for the ol
Ecclesiastical Courts were prest.:7l y Mr. Pr from
Cambridge and Cottenham ;'by George Grey, from
Devonport ; by Mr. Ewart, from C.horley, and other
places ; by Mr. Hume, from Leighton I;:Azzard, Kentish
Town, and Weymouth • by Mr. R. Gordon, from Ports-
mouth and two other places ; by Mr. T. Duncon2be, from
Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Buckinghamshire, and a dist:net of
the metropolis ; and by Mr. Sergeant Talfourd, &Ow
Reading.
Mr.:EASTHOPE then rose for leave to bring in a Bill
to abolish Church-rates. He was quite aware of the in-
convenience that would arise from any interference with
the debate which was adjourned last night, and
he was most anxious not to offer any such in-
terference ; but attn. tho number of petitions that
had been presented, and the excitement that pre-
vailed in the country, whatever his reluctance might be,
he thought the House would admit that it was impossible
that he could consistently postpone his motion. He
trusted, therefore, that the House would allow him to
introduce his Bill, and in such case he proposed not to
go into the subject at all on the present occasion, but to
take the debate upon the second reading. He,
therefore, moved for leave to bring in a Bill for
abolishing Church-rates, and for making other provision
for the maintenance of churches and chapels in England
and Wales.

Mr. HUME seconded the motion.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he understood the Hon.
Member to state that this was a Bill for abolishing
Church-rates, and making other provision for the erec-
tion of churches. If this were the case, he
should have no objection to the Bill being laid on the
table, and to see what the other provisions were. He
believed there could not be much difference of opinion
that this was a desirable object, but if thq provisions were
not satisfactory, he should certainly t ote against the
second reading.—(Hear, hear.)
Dr. NICHOLLS said he thought this was not a
proper moment'for the introduction of a Bill of so much
importance ; the law of the land had been ascertained by
the decision of the Court of Exchequer ; and, therefore,
his Hon. Friend was not justified in introducing, without
giving any reason for it, a Bill to change the law of the
-land. Should such a bill be introduced, he should be
ready to discuss it ; but on the present occasion he
should Move-an. amendment, that the Order of the Day
for resuming the adjourned debate be now read.—(Hear,
hear.)
Sir R. H. INGLIS seconded th—e amendment, observ-
ing that he could not agree with the Noble Lord as to
the expediency, under any circumstances, of abolishing -
Church-rates.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. EASTHOPE had not expected such an opposi-
tion to his motion. He was sure that the opposition he
met with would be viewed in the country with much
dissatisfaction. He was very anxious that he should
not interfere with the expected business of the House,
but met in the way he had, been, he would press the
question to a division.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—If the House had acceded
to the proposition of the Hon. Member he would have
willingly agreed, but as objeations had been taken to the
motion, he trusted the Hon. Member would not stand in
the way of the House• proceeding with the adjourned
debate. He could not, Vote for the introduction of the
Bill, because, under the circumstance, in which they

were placed, the House was not prepared for the intro-
duction of such a measure.
Mr. HUME had hoped there would have been no op-
position to the introduction rof the Bill, as it was almost
the same as bad been before the House for the last two
sessions. However, as such objection was found with the
motion, under all the circumstances of the case, he would
advise his Hon. Friend not to divide the House upon the
question, but bring it forward at a fitter opportunity.
Therefore, although his Hon. Friend had been already
subjected to so many disappointments, he would advise
him to submit to one more disappointment on the pre-
sent occasion, and to withdraw his motion. If he saw
any probability of carrying a division, even
without discussion, he would advise his Hon. Friend to
persevere ; but as he saw no chance of carrying a division,
in the then temper of the House, he should advise his
Hon. Friend to withdraw his motion, on the under-
standing that an early day should be fixed for the dis-
cussion of the subject.
Mr. EASTHOPE trusted the House would believe
that he was exceedingly reluctant to press any motion
against the sense of the House ; but he felt that he should
be neglecting his duty, and compromising the interests
of the numerous petitioners who had intrusted their
cause to his hands, if, in withdrawing his motion, he did
not entreat that an early day might be fixed for bringing
forward the question. On Tuesday next there were se-
veral notices on the paper which would take precedence
of his, but he would, in withdrawing the motion, give no-
tice that on that day fortnight he should bring it forward
again. •
The motion was then withdrawn.
RETURNS.

Mr. HUME moved for an account of the amount of
the fund denominated the " suitors' fund" in Chancery
on the Ist day of January, 1833, stating how the same
was at that time invested. The amount of dividends re-
ceived, of payments made, and of surplus at the same
date in each year, up to the Ist day of January, 1841 ;
stating the payments under the heads of salaries, sur-
veyor of buildings, legal expenses, and miscellaneous.
Account, in detail, of the manner in which the sum
paid. from the " suitors' fund," in Chancery, in
the year 1840 was applied ; stating the name of each
person to whom any salary or payment was made, and
the amount of such salary or payment ; also, the sums
paid for other purposes than salaries or fees, to whom
and for what purposes paid. Account, in detail, of the
manner in which the sum for Miscellaneous Ser-
vices was expended in 1840. Account of the
amount received by the Accountant-General for
brokerage, in each year, from the Ist day of
January, 1833, to the Ist day of January, 1841—Ordered.
Also for returns of the establishment of the City of Lon-
don Police Force, as it existed on the 31st day of
December, 1840 ; distinguishing the number and pay
of each class, whether officers or constables, the
names and salaries of the Commissioners, Receiver,
and other Clerks, with any incidental expenses of rent,
coals, candles, servants, or other allowances ; also, a de-
tailed Return, of the Pay and Contingencies of the rest
of the Establishments, stating the number and locality
of the stations and receiving houses, with the rent and
taxes, and other expenses for the same ; with a Summary
of the total receipt and expenditure of the entire Esta-
blishment, from the Ist day of January to the 31st day
of December 1840 (in the same form as the Metropoli-
tan Police Return, ParL Paper, No. 172) : of the num-
ber and locality of the stations and receiving-
houses of the Metrepolitan Police at this time, stating
the rent, taxes, and other expenses ; showing the total
amount at each station, under the several heads (as en-
tered in the Parliamentary Paper No. 172, of 1841) :
of the number and locality of the stations and receiving-
houses of the City of London Police at this time, stating
the rent, taxes, and other expenses ; showing the total
amount at each station, under the several litads (as en-
tered in the Parliamentary Paper No. 172, of 1841.)
Mr. •HOSKINS obtained leave to bring in a Bill to
. exempt lime as manure from the payment of turnpike

On the motion of Mr. FRESHFEELD, the following
Members were nominated as a Select Committee on
West India Mails :—Mr. Freshfield, Lord Dalmeny, Lord
Viscount Ingestre, Captain Pechell, Captain Dun-
combe, Mr. Charles Wood, Sir Thomas Cochrane, Mr.
John O'Connell, Lord Viscount Sandon, Lord Worsley,
Mr. Philip Miles, Mr. Craig, Mr. De Horsey, Mr. Os-
wald, and Mr. Richard Hodgson.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for Ireland obtained
leave to bring in a Bill for the more easy recovery of
Arrears of Composition for Tithes, from persons of the
persuasion of the people called Quakers, in Ireland.