The Sun.
London, England, 1840-03-27 00:00:00

EVENING EDITION.

seem, that he (Sir James Graham) did not think it
would be fair to look upon that Hon. and Learned
Gentleman as the exponent of her Majesty's Govern-
ment on the present occasion. He had hoped that some
other Member of the Cabinet would have infer Iw-A the
House of the course of policy intended to be pursued
by her Majesty's advisers in a matter which had been
admitted on all hands to he of such great and para-
mount importance—(Hear, hear.) As he still thought
it would be necessary to extract some opinion from
the Government before they went to a division
on the question, be would presume to address
the House, and to state his opinions on the subject
then before them. He understood one Honourable
Gentleman opposite, to have complained of the
great hardship imposed on the Irish voter, by the new
Bill, viz, that of obliging him to specify all the circum-
stances attendant on th claim on which lie considered
himself to be registered. That objection had been made
in particular to the provision respecting lives and leases ;
but as he (Sir James Graham) understood tl.e law,
evco at present the voter was obliged to produce the
lease itself, or, in its absence, he was obliged to make
an affidavit of the existence of one of the lives at least.
All that his Noble Friend proposed to do was, to put
that enactment in - a more specific and tangible shape.
Hon. Gentlemen opposite, had also objected to the
clauses awarding costs. But what could the Noble
Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, say to such an objec.
ti°4 ? The Noble Lord must be perfectly aware that
, in two Bills introduced in 1831 and 1836, a similar
clause had been introduced. The Honourable and
Learned Member for Armagh, had shown by his
hypercriticism how frivolous were the objections which
Could be made to the Bill. The Hon. and Learned
Member had objected to the seasons of the year at
Which the assizes were to be held ; he had objected to
the appeal being given to the Judges at Assize : all
those objections, however, would be open to discussion
i.,,u Committee, and did not embrace the principle of the
141- His Noble Friend would be quite ready to enter
.reeiatim into those objections in Committee ; and if
they should be found valid ones, lie should be ready
t° remedy them. But the evil of which they com-
hined, and which they sought to remove, was one
Which had been admitted on all sides to exist—it was
this, that as the law now stood in Ireland, a voter with
Only the colour of a claim, and without any real right
to the franchise, might, time after time, apply to an
Assistant
ssistant Barrister tor a certificate, and be refused—
heA might, even on that refusal, appeal to the Judges of
Assize, and be again refused ; and yet, on a change
of Assistant Barristers, a new Barrister, from
"eviction, or from less worthy motives, might
Place on the registry a voter so rejected by the highest
authorities as having no legal title whatever to a vote ;
besides, when the claim bad once been acknowledged,
every redress was unavailable, except on appeal to a
Committee of the House, and if the Committee should
decide,
, as had often happened, against opening the
-egistrY, that vote, thus colourable, fictitious, and in-
defensible might be renewed and perpetuated by certifi-
cates for the life of the party whose claim had been
unjustly admitted.—(Hear, hear.) They wished to
put an end to evils such as these. Gentlemen opposite
had said, that in seeking for a remedy, their object was to
'knit the franchise in Ireland; but he (Sir J. Graham)
I should say, that that was a gross misrepresentation of
their objects, which they repudiated and denied. Their
' Object was certainly to establish a proper system of oration,re-
gi and, at the same time, to determine
qualification of claimants—to put an end to
Perjury,f and to vindicate the law.—(Hear, hear.)
It
Was said that the Noble Lord, by his Bill, was
d
°jug an act that was monstrous, for that he was seek-
ing for a scheme of registration to adopt the same prin-
ciple which was applied to England, and which had
turned out to be a perfect failure. There was great
fallacy., in the foundation of the argument. The Noble
the
did not attempt by the present Bill to assimilate
lave with England. It was true that his Hon. and
Learned Friend, the Member for Bandon, had at-
tenapted to effect that object, but he found there was
1:: little chance of success that he gave it up altogether.
,r
Noble
Hon. Member for Bridport had stated that the
the Lord sought to give to Ireland the defects of
Ll',° English system. Now, what were those defects?
The Hon. Member had said want of uniformity of de-
Zieion, and in consequence of the character of the tri-
. 11°4 Now, what was the object of his Noble Friend
in this Bill? Why to give to high and Learned Judges
in each town, stationary and not ambulatory, the
Power of deciding in all cases of registration.
The Hon. Member for Bridport had stated that he was
not prepared to give to any fixed Judge the decision of
Political rights. If such were to be the case, the next
question would be was there to be any registration at '
till ? So much for the first objection of the Hon. and
ELearned Member. What was the second ? That the
nglish system, which was bad, should be introduced
into Ireland. His Noble Friend had no such intention ; 1
what he proposed was to give in Ireland an appeal to
the highest tribunal, both as to the vote and to the
voter. Did the Noble Lord opposite ebject to that
Principle ? If he did, he must have greatly altered his
opinion since the year 1835. He was disposed to think,
with his Honourable and Learned Friend the Mem-
ber for Exeter, that the Judge of Assize was
the best appellant tribunal, but he would not
Pledge himself to that, neither did his Noble i
Friend who had introduced the Bill, for he was
willing to adopt any better suggestion which might
be made in Committee. He then came to the third
objection of the Hon. Member for Bridport, which was,
that vexatious proceedings would arise in consequence
of the annual revision of frivolous objections. What
was to prevent that, he would ask, but the power of
awarding costs, which was given by the Bill of his
Noble Friend, who was anxious—not as had been stated
to transfer to Ireland all the evils of the English sys-
tem—but to establish in that country a system of re-
gistration in which all the evils to which the English
system was subject had been carefully omitted.—( Hear,
hear.) The Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman the
Vice-President of the Board of Trade, had said that all
this might be very well, but the giving to the
Judge of Assize the power of awarding costs,
would, in his opinion, be most injurious and expensive.
He (Sir J, Graham) was most astonished at the new
doctrine with regard to annual revisions. An immense
change must have come over Hon. Gentlemen oppo-
'ite, and particularly the colleagues of the Noble Lord,
°Pon that subject ; for he recollected the time when
the subject of annual revision was the constant day-
dream of Lord Althorp. He had never heard it ob-
jected to by the Noble Lord the Member for Stroud,
and, in fact, he had not heard a word said against it
until the statements made by the Hon. Member for
Bridport.—(Hear, hear.) It was said that the adop-
t
.;!,m of this system would limit the right of voting.
4-le aeserted that it would do no such thing ; but this it
Ynald do—it would strike at the root of fraudulent and
° octitious votes -_(Hear, hear.) If the registry were
Pened by a Committee of the House of Commons, the
expense would be enormous, but it on the other hand it
714 not re-opened, then, according to the evidence taken
_e.efore the Fictitious Votes Committee, the power de-
r
thived under certificates perpetually received, would cause
e
t r u‘lt i greatest frauds to be committed, which would reign
dePhant throughout the whole of Ireland, and would
ilstroy not only the constituency of Ireland, but that of
he vrhole empire. All arguments failing upon the sub-
ject of the Bill introduced by his Noble Friend, resort
hadti been had to personal attacks. He had been called
° enemy of Ireland, but he reminded those who called
h
;to so of the character of the proceedings of his Noble
Friend with respect to that country. From his earliest
Youth he had been the strenuous supporter of the claims
of the Roman Catholics.—(Hear, hear.) He supported
them at a time when public opinion was opposed to the
concessions, and when the advocacy of those claims
wits not the high road to popularity or power.—
Hear, hear, hear.) What had his Noble Friend
one when in the possession of power? Why, he
Must remind the House that Church-rates were re-
Pealed in Ireland by the largest measure of Ec-
clesiastical Reform that had ever passed the Legisla-
ture.—( Hear, hear.) That measure was introduced
by his Noble Friend. Was that all ? No, he had
acted up to the principle of the Catholic Emancipation,
and he had introduced a scheme for the education of the
Irish people. He it was who, on the passing of the
Reform Act, extended the franchise of Ireland. He
left the freehold franchise as be found it, and he put
the household suffrage on the same footing as that of
Ogland and Scotland, but he gave to Ireland besides
thist a species of leasehold tenure, which was not
given
° England or Scotland.—(Hear, hear.) It still re-
mained to be urged for what reason the second reading
of this Bill had been rejected. He knew that the
Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin
4,_d denounced this measure, and he had said
that her Majesty's Government would not dare to
suPport it after that denouncemeDt. He (Sir J.
Graham) was afraid that that denouncement would be
found strong enough to decide her Majesty's Ministers
its to the course they should pursue, because, if they
did not yield to this a repeal was threatened. Such
WO5 the boast of that hollow peace that existed in Ire-
and, and such were the means by which her Majesty's
Government sought to prolong it.—( Hear, hear.)
• Lord MO RPET H was rather astonished at the open-
14g Of the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet who had
Just sat down, because he seemed to think it a strange
'tract preposterous thing that upon a Bill which went to
esett.,"(l2l the whole of the registration of Ireland, and
h ich, in the opinion of the great body of the em-
en' On .1 .
fret . tnat side of the House, sought vitually totdis.-
p nebise the people of Ireland, he seemed to think it
night that an adjournment of the debate for one
igeht should have taken place. He had stated rightly that
!Lneveatljournment was demanded upon its being stated that
. ral Members on that side of the House wished to dc-
liver their sentiments on the Bill, and then he sought
It
a:ontrovert the justice of that demand by stating
a division was on the point of taking place, when,
not,ut after speeches from the other side of the House,
n after one from the side on which he (Lord Morpeth)
sat, which had taken at least an hour in delivery, and
tvthich nobody on the other side of the House had ven-
turedto offer any observations on, till the field was
aken by the Hon. and Gallant Member for Sligo—
"i_

(Hear, hear, and laughter)—what was the remaining
course that was taken ? Did Members on this side of
the House show themselves slack in coming forward ?
No ; four Hon. Members on that side had spoken
against the Bill, and it was not until the Noble Loro's
faithful Achates, the Right Hon. Baronet the Member
for Pembroke, came forward to rescue the Noble Lord's
maltreated Bill, that any Hon. Gentleman spoke from
that side of the House. The Right Hon. Baronet
had expressed great anxiety as to the line that would be
taken by the Government with respect to this measure,
and that anxiety, he stated, was shared by several Hon.
Members on his side of the House. Now he (Lord
Morpeth) thought that that anxiety must have been in
a great measure allayed, by the ;clear and definite
statement of his Honourable Friend the Solicitor-
General for Ireland, last night.—( Hear, hear.) But
when his Noble Friend, the Member for North Lan,
cashire, representing an English caunty, but connected
with Ireland, not only in consequence of the place that
he held there, but as a landed proprietor, and he hoped
that that connection would be of long duration, for the
benefit of those who lived under him—(Cheers)—
when he brought forward a Bill for the purpose of re-
modelling the system of registration in Ireland, he must
have been primarily anxious to ascertain the views of
the body of the Irish representatives and Irish
people on the subject. Abundant light had been
thrown in the course of the present discussion,
on his views and sentiments, and there was nothing in
the talent or temper of these speeches to which the most
fastidious could object. With respect to his own views
on this subject, the Right Hon. Gentleman had refer-
red to what he had said when ha stated that he should
be guided by the course proposed by the Bill, and by
the tendency it would have to obstruct or contract the
legitimate exercise of the franchise in Ireland. Whe-
ther the Right Hon. Gentleman referred to his own dis-
passionate views of the tendency of the Bill now placed
in the hands of the House, or to the impressions con-
veyed from the various quarters of the Ho-use, he must
say that that he had no doubt or hesitation in at once
declaring that he was prepared to give his most down-
right opposition to the further progress of the Bill.—
(Hear, hear.) There were many points connected with
the Bill which belonged to legal detail and professional
practice, which would be much more compe-
tently disposed of by professional persons, and
those points he would gladly leave in their hands,
other points would be more advantageously treated by
those who had had personal experience of the working
of the Irish Registration ; and those topics he would
leave to be dealt with by them. His own course in this
matter was mainly decided by a few leading considera-
tions. When he on a former occasion had the honour
of addressing the House, he admitted that previous at-
tempts bad been made to legislate on this subject, and
that they had failed in those attempts. He had then
frankly stated the reasons which had deterred them, in
subsequent years, from bringing measures forward.
Perhaps they might have been in the wrong. He did
not blame his Noble Friend for making the attempt, but
it was only upon the success of that attempt that he
would admit the fallacy of his own opinion.—(Hear,
hear.) Having admitted the unsuccessful attempts, it
was not necessary for him to say that he did not stand
up to deny or defend any of the irregularities,
imperfections, or abuses which might have been charge-
able upon the present system of registration in Ireland.
He believed that a great proportion, if not the main pro-
portion, of such imperfections and abuses were chiefly
referable to the hurry and inexperience in which the
original registration took place under the Reform Act
of the Noble Lord himself. He thought it always ne-
cessary to his argument to contend that the present sys-
tem of registration in England required no alteration,
and he was far from contending that the present system
of registration in Ireland was the best that might be ;
but he did question whether the Bill of the Noble Lord
was calculated to amend the evils which might exist or
not. He doubted whether it would not introduce other
and greater evils, if it removed some of the inconveniences
which were said to exist. The provisions which went
to protect the registering tenant would, in some in-
stances, operate against the tenant. As Gentlemen
opposite were so clever in laying down principles,
he wished to bring their attention to the principle of
this Bill, that in every year the registering voter should
be obliged to prove his qualification before the Bar-
rister, and that he should be called upon himself to
appear in person, and that he should pass through the
same ordeal before the going Judge at the Assizes. If
the enactment passed into a law, he (Lord Morpeth)
would take upon himself to say that what were desig-
nated in the Bill as annual revisions, would cause a ne-
cessity for half-yearly registrations. When the Noble
Lord (Lord Stanley) was himself' in power remedies
were suggested. Sir M. O'Loghlen, now the Master
of the Rolls in Ireland, and Mr. Woulfe, who was then
Solicitor General, proposed measures which were from
time to time postponed, and ultimately defeated. In
this respect the Bill of the Noble Lord differed entirely
from every measure that had before been proposed to
the House for an improvement of the modes of regis-
tration. The Bill would introduce, for the first time in
Ireland, a revival de novo in every case. In looking to
the modes of registration in England, he came neces-
sarily to this conviction, that the practice in the Courts
of the Barristers was vexatious and burdensome.—

( Hear, hear, hear.) He was doubtful whether,
when it was proposed to assimilate the registration
in Ireland with the English registration it might not be
more advisable to give England the advantage of the Irish
system.—(Cheers.) He admitted that in this Bill
there were some details which, if introduced in a better
spirit, might be beneficial.—( Hear, hear.) On the 26th
of March, 1829, the Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) had
contended that the people of Ireland were entitled to
an influence in the representation equal to that which
was exercised by the English people—(Hear, hear)—
and in a subsequent year, when the Reform Bill for Ire-
land was under discussion, he proposed that the qualifi-
cation should be 101. and no more.—( Hear.) But the
only effect of this Bill would be to restrict the franchise
of the bona fide voters. The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir
James Graham) bad said that the Noble Lord was the
father of the Municipal Reform Biil ; but in fact he
showed himself this night much more in the character
of a step-dame.—(Cheers and laughter.) It had been
said that in respect to copyhold tenure the Bill would
be a boon to Inland, whereas it was well known to
every one connected with Ireland that there was very
little property there held upon that tenure. Again, in
the case of costs. In England the costs were limited to
10s., but in Ireland, by the tender mercies of the Noble
Lord, it was proposed to give the Barrister the power of
imposing a penalty of 101. With respect to the sche-
, doles—what he had to complain of was the accumula-
tion of their multifarious heads. The Right Honour-
able Baronet (Sir James Graham) had compared

the Bill of the Noble Lord the Member for North
Lancashire with the English Corporations Reform Bill.
—(Hear.) He might better have contrasted them.—
(Cheers.) The Reform Bill was short and simple,
but in the Bill of the Noble Lord there were eleven
columns—( Hear, hear)—in which the name, surname,
parentage, age, street, lane, road, or alley—together
with the nature of the tenure, and all the particulars of
the lease must be set forth. The battle of Hercules
with the Hydra was nothing to the difficulty which
beset the poor Irish voter under the complicated notice
the Noble Lord had imposed upon him.—(Cheers and
laughter.) If any alteration were required to do away
with the evasions, the dishonesty, or the ambiguity of the
present system of registration—evils which he (Lord
Morpeth) deeply regretted—he would nevertheless not
consent to remove them by a measure which would in-
troduce others of a more serious nature—(Cheers)—
and he doubted whether a really satisfactory solution of
the difficulties of the case could be arrived at, unless
the whole matter of ascertaining the franchise,were taken
out of what he might call the province of opinion,
and every question, whether of beneficial interest, or of

the value set by a solvent tenant upon a holding, was
fixed upon sonic definite basis, such as a standard set-

tied on some authentic rate or valuation—(Hear, hear)
—which, however, could not be effected without serious
consideration—(Hear, hear)—and which could not be
attempted till more experience had been had of the
operation of the Poor-law.—( Hear, hear.) But, as the
whole tendency and results of this measure, he did
think that in a country situated as Ireland was—with

in every Registry Court two antagonist parties pitted
against each other—on the one side the wealthy pro
prietor anxious to extinguish the right of voting in te.•
nants not entirely subservient to them ; and on the
other hand, small and comparatively dependant lease-
holders or farmers, to whom the loss of a single day, or
expense of a journey to the Reviaing Court, and then
again of a journey to the Appeal Court, must be
matters of serious moment—(Cries of " Hear, hear")—
in a country like this a measure like the Noble Lord's
must have the effect of wheedling or worrying, and
finally exterminating the franchises of a great portion
of the Irish people.—(Loud cheers.) The Bill did
not contain one solitary glimpse of an attempt to ascer-
tain, to secure, or to facilitate the attainment of the
franchise—(Cheers)—while on the other hand it was
framed with studied and elaborate care to limit and
fetter its attainment.—(Cheers.) What must be the
result of such a measure ? and this, perhaps, was his
(Lord M.'s) chief argumer.t against it—the effect of it
must be to rouse the popular party in Ireland to look
about for some means of exciting a stimulus adequate
to the emergency—(Hear, hear)--and thus to meet
the new difficulties thrown in the way of the franchise,
there would be created the necessity for a violent and
unintermitting agitation on every political topic of the
day.—(Hear, hear.) Considering conscientiously that
this would be the probable operation of the Bill—that
it would fetter the franchise—that it would excite po-
pular discontent, and arouse dangerous agitation, he
should give his determined opposition to the further
progress of the measure.—(Loud cheers.)
Lord STANLEY said in the first place he must
express his unfeigned thanks for the kind and ready
courtesy with which the House had listened to his re-
quest for an early close of the debate, and he should en-
deavour to repay that kindness by restricting himself as
much as possible to the provisions of the Bill itself ; he
should not defend himself from any imputations of a hos
the animus towards Ireland ; those gentlemen who ha

requested him to undertake this measure well knew how
studiously, in framing it, he had guarded against fetter-
ing the franchise, and the Learned Member for Tippe-
rary had last night declared that little value was to be
set upon political protestations in that House; so that as
on the one hand lie hoped it was superfluous, on the
other hand he found it would be unavailing, to disclaim
a hostile feeling towards Ireland.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
But he must be permitted to say that he approached
the discussion of this question with unmitigated
surprise—surprise not that the Bill was opposed, for
that he had reason to expect, but of the arguments
with which, and the persons by whom it had been op-
posed.—(Hear, hear.) The Learned Member for
Dublin had on Saturday last, before the meeting at the
Corn Exchange—where his proceedings resembled
those of the late Mr. Mathews in plays, in which the
first part was played by Mr. Mathews, and the second
part was played by M. Mathews, and the third part
was played by Mr. Mathews, and every part was
played by Mr. Mathews— (Loud laughter) -- the
Learned Gentleman had, on Saturday last, told his
audience that he had not had time to prepare the report
upon Lord Stanley's Bill. On the following day the
Report was presented, and directions having been pre-
viously circulated throughout all Ireland that any Bill
should be opposed which Lord Stanley introduced—
(Hear, hear)—a petition was agreed to founded upon
the Report, stating that the petitioners had, with
the utmost anxiety and care, considered the provi-
sions of the Bill, and were sincerely desirous
that the subject should be fairly treated.—(Loud cries
of " Hear, hear.") There was one consolation in con-
sidering this Bill, that none of its opponents bad ven-
tured to deny or palliate the monstrous abuses of the
present system.—(Hear, hear.) And if the principal
features of the Bill were so utterly repugnant to the
feelings of the Government, why had he (Lord Stanley)
been allowed the mockery of introducing it merely to
be so bitterly opposed ?—(Hear, hear.) He had been
charged with wishing to introduce into Ireland the in-
conveniences of the English registration, the advantages
of which he had formerly refused to extend to Ireland.
Whereas the fact was that he had refused to introduce

into Ireland that system before it had been tested in
England, and he was astonished to hear that the exist-
ing system of annual revision in England had worked
vexatiously.—(lronical cries of " Hear, bear.") it
now seemed, indeed, that the Noble Lord opposite wal
inclined to think the English system of certificates the
best. A new light upon this subject seemed to have broken
in even upon the Hon. Member for Bridport, who had
now found the registration of counties inconvenient, and
annual revision expensive.—(Cheers.) But in 1837,
there .tias an article in the Law Magazine (to which the
Solicitor-General for Ireland referred last night), re-
ferring to a Bill introduced by the Hon. Member for
Bridport, and proposing some amendments, but by uu
means doing away with the annual revision.—( Hear.)
The House of Commons passed that Bill, and the Law
Magazine commented on it. The writer in that Magazine
stated that "the Lords, on the motion of Lord Wharn-
ciao, struck out so much of the Bill as related to the new

tribunal, and made some judicious improvements in the
rest. The Commons refused to pass it, and it failed.
The object of the following remarks is to show that the
Lords were entirely in the right, and the Commons en-
tirely in the wrong."—(Tory cheers.)
An HON. MEMBRR on one of the Ministerial benches
exclaimed, " Who writes for the Law Magazine,"
Lord STANLEY—The Solicitor-General for Ireland
will probably tell the Hon. Gentleman that no counsel is
at liberty to impeach his own witness,—( Great cheer-
ing and laughter.) The Law Magazine was introduced
into this debate by the Hon. and Learned Solicitor-General,
and when I prove his own witness upsets his own case, up
starts a gentleman on the other side, and says, " Pray,
who is the Law Magazine ?"—( Renewed laughter and
cheers.) The Noble Lord then went on to say that an
attack had been made on him for endeavouring by his Bill
to assimilate the system of Irish Registration to that of
England. He repudiated that attack. The Hon. Baronet,
the Member for Yorkshire, had said the Bill was full of
defects, but that he would approve of it, if be could only
obtain a similar system for England. The Hun. Member
for Limerick agreed that legislation was required, and ac-
knowledged that the system of certificates led to abuse,
and that the present system of registration altogether was
highly objectionable. Yet they both came to the conclu-
sion that they were bound to oppose the principle
of the Bill.—( Cheers.) He bad been asked by the Hon.
Member for Tipperary, last night (Mr. Shiel) if he could
prove that the granting of certificates bad led to abuse.
The Hon. Member for Belfast had that morning put into
his (Lord Stanley's) hands a statement. of the registry,
which he had only received that day, otherwise he would
have made use of it last night. That statement showed
that out of the 6,000 or 7000 registered voters the real
number qualified to vote was not 2,ooo—that there were
no less than 197 who appeared registered three successive
times—fourteen were registered four times—two persons
registered five times, and that one person was registered
no less than six times—(Loud cheers)—and that
upon the whole, those 197 electors just held
among them 618 certificates—they held separate
certificates, and could make use of those 618 certificates
at any election.—(Hcar, hear, hear.) The Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin bad said, the other night,
" Don't you kno IV it is the practice of every Assistant Bar-
rister to write reregistered when he hands back the certi-
ficate?" That might be so, although there was no law
to require it should be so; but that mark could very easily
be effaced.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Yet it was said there
was no abuse. He would give a case • it was one that oc-
curred before the Hon. and Learned Member for the
University of Dublin at Granard A man came
up to be re-registered in 1837. He looked
so young, and the certificate bearing date in
1832, that the Hun. and Learned Gentleman suspected
all was not right: He found the man's Christian name
was the same as his father's, and the certificate be pro-
duced was the certificate of his father, who since he

had obtained it had died. After that gross fraud was
discovered the counsel wanted to register him as a new
claimant, but that failed, as he had no qualification.—
( Loud cheers.) The Noble Lord then read the evidence
of a Mr. Kirman, given before the Committee on Ficti.
tious Votes, who took a very active part in favour of Mr.
White, at his election for the county of Longford, which
stated that there were persons on the register, on
both sides, who had long lost their qualification—
that it would be a measure of justice to the
fair constituents that there should be a new register,
and that the system of registering on certificate, without
the attendance of the claimant, tended to produce fraudu-
lent sad fictitious votes, and that he knew of instances in
which certificates had been taken out for parties who had
long ceased to exist.--( Cheers.) But then it was said
the party had to make an affidavit at the poll. The Hon.
Member for Cashel had said it was a hardship to strike off
any man who by accident had no longer his franchise in
June 1840, but who still had an indefeasible right to go to
the poll. An indefeasible right to go to the poll ! Why,
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman himself forgot the
affidavit.—(Loud cheers.) Did any gentleman stand up
for the present system of certificates ? If they were not

to have certificates, what were they to have? In what
manner, except by a practical revision, was it possible to
obtain a purgation of the register, and to do away with
fictitious votes ?_( Hear hear. ) In dealing with this
question he had considered not only the evils they had
to meet, but the mode that would be most convenient for
the; purpose, and which was most likely to obtain the
concurrence of both sides of the House in the principles
of the Bill. He had thought that he could not be mis-
taken when he founded his Bill upon the principle of an-
nual revision, appeal to a Judge against the franchise as
well as for the franchise, and in consideration of that ap-
peal rejecting the jurisdiction of the House of Commons,
and making that register final and conclusive. Why had lie
thought so ? Because those were the principles contained
in every Bill that had obtained the concurrence of the House.
But the Hon, and Learned Member for Dublin had said
that, although in 1836 lie had supported such a Bill, yet
he had now changed his mind, and if the Government dared
to do now—( Loud cheers)—that which they proposed,
assented to, eulogized, and declared to be essential to the
welfare of Ireland in 1835 and 1836, up would go a cry
for a repeal of the Union.—(Cheers.) And thereupon,
forsooth, the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland had
new impressions—( Renewed cheering)—and he too
thought the principles were not quite so clear as they for-
merly were, and that there were fundamental objections to
double appeals—the giving of costs was monstrous—and
that the principles of the Bill altogether were such that
the House of Commons could not for a moment assent to
them. Would the Noble Lord deny that in 1835 Sir M.
O'Loghlen brought in a Bill nearly similar? He acknow-
ledged that in the Bills that were brought forward by the
Government there was not an alteration of the franchise,
but there was a declaration of what the law was. In 1836
a similar Bill was introduced. But, oh ! said the Solicitor-
General, those Bills of 1835 and 1836 were not to be looked
at. It might have been very convenient to put up the Soli-
citor-General early in the debate. He said he knew nothing
about Mr. Perrin's and Mr. Woulfe's Bill, and it must
have been very painful to the Noble Lord the Secretary
for Ireland to hear his present Solicitor-General condemn
his late Attorney and Solicitor-Generals—(Cheer and
laughter)--and it must have been still more painful for
him to know that later in the debate he himself would
have to get up and support his present legal adviser in
condemning the course which his former legal adviscrshad
taken. But the Solicitor-General for Ireland had said
that from 1831 downwards it became to be seen how very
expensive and inconvenient an annual revision was, and
that Ministers then altered their minds. Did they ? No
very great impression had been produced on the mind of
Mr. Woulfe, who introduced a Bill in the following year.
Mr. Woulfe said. " According to the present law, if the
decision was in favour of the claimant, there was no appeal,
but if against him he must bring his appeal to the
Judge of Assize, who had power to reverse the decree.
This arrangement I consider calls for revision, and my ob-
ject:is to give appeal, as well as upon one side as the
other." Mr. Woulfe had also proposed an annual re-
vision. He ( Lord Stanley) admitted fairly that in the
Bill brought in by the Government they provided only for
eases that had arisen subsequent to the last registration ;
the principle of the Bill was to revise the names registered
for the Year next to come. He had been anxious to limit
the revision, so as to effect the object which the Noble Lord
had sought in his former Bills, but he had come to the
conclusion that if he were now to limit the revision, it
would be impossible to prevent cases of the grossest fraud.
He supposed it would be admitted that Assistant Barristers,
like other persons, were fallible mortals—that they might
be deceived, and that a person might get an the regis vr
who had no proper claim. What was to be done with such
a person, if, within 12 months, it should be found he was a
fraudulent voter? He (Lord Stanley) proposed to do away
with Committees of the House of Commons. Did any one
desire to retain the revision of the House of Commons ?
( Lord John Russell nodded assent.) The Noble Lord,
then, desired that the House of Commons should have the
power of checking the registry ?—( Cheers from the
Tories,) The 1-I,nourable Member for Limelrick 183 m