The Sun.
London, England, 1847-01-26 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JANUARY 26, 1M47.

- -
ships, hote
populationmeant
by means of g
of
,meitetigrnatiorni d of the
du.
lie thought
that .... , ,rice tram the Go, - • Lefore the
tillsh
butcountryass wouldassistance
ncertainty
theneat otherte ndsidetd
of the Atlantic, when the emigrant arrived there, he was
sure would prove most beneficial. He thought
were Government determined in rendering that
assistance in the land of emigration, that
the Irish landlords uniting together would make it
more like colonisation than emigration, by gathering
together different classes of the population, so that on
the other side of the Atlantic each individual would most
likely find a sphere at once to suit their energies and
their ablilities. Much had bees said elsewhere of a
poor-law for Ireland ;he believed there was a difficulty
connected with the subject; but he was of opinion that
whether it ought to be the English poor-law or not,
the Irish landlords must be prepared to receive a poor •
law sooner or later. He was still sanguine enough to
believe that they would weather the storm, and intro-
duce an improved state of things in the country, from
the experience of the present calamity.
The Earl of RODEN was persuaded that the mea•
sures introduced would tend to produce considerable
benefit. He denied that the Labour-rate Act of last
session was productive of any good. The works con-
structed under its provisions were entirely useless, and
it was the cause besides of withdrawing the labourers
from the cultivation of the soil. It was well known
that in Ireland the labourers preferred to take employ-
ment in the public works, even when the remuneration
they received was less than they could have obtained
from the farmers ; and on this account he considered
that the greatest possible circumspection should have
been exercised in affbrding employment. He was sure
the measures proposed would be received as boons by
Ireland, and he should, therefore, give them his sup-
port.
The Earl FITZWILLIAM was sorry that the Noble
Lord, who was so discursive in his speeches, and who
generally spoke de omnibus rebus et quibusdam aliis,
was not in his place on that occasion. lie regretted
that his Noble Friend was not present, as he (Lord
Fitzwilliam) had pleasure in bearing his testimony, to
the excellence of a recommendation made at the close of
that Noble Lord's speech, in which he recommended that
they should endeavour to induce the people of this
country to abstain as much as possible from the con-
sumption of farinaceous food. With respect to what
had fallen from his Noble Friend behind him (Lord
Devon) respecting the Labour-rate Act, he (Earl Fitz-
william) had to observe, that although that measure did
not work in the way in which it could have been
wished, still it had effected much good, and he would
ask those Noble Lords who made too strong grounds of
objection to it, in what condition would the country have
been in if that Act had not passed? That measure, he
considered, was a test for the landlords of Ireland ; for
if they did not employ their destitute labourers on their
own properties, this Act made it compulsory to afford
them employment on the public roads, and he there-
fore denied that it was a positive evil. He
believed that in a general point of view
the Act, though not providing for works
of a useful nature, still was of great benefit, and it ap-
peared to him very evident that it was a means of re-
lieving a very considerable portion of the distress. With
respect to the measures opened this evening by the Noble
Marquis on the Treasury bench, he begged to say that
they did as much credit to the wisdom of her Majesty's
Government as they would, he was sure, prove efficient
to meet the emergercy tor which they were intended.
There were some parts of them to which exception might
be taken, but he sincerely believed that to some
extent they would grapple with the evils they were
intended to meet. He must now say a word for the
landlords of Ireland ; and he would say with respect
them, that if the whole responsibility and duty of alle-
viating the distresses of the people of Ireland, were to
be cast on one class, and that class the landlords, he
would say Parliament and Government would do a
great injustice to that class. He would ask, why put
it on that class alone ? Were there no persons there
possessed of wealth ? Were there no persons in Ireland
but the landlords to be engaged in that work ? He did
not think that such a course was a just one, and he would
go further and say, that it should not be cast on
Ireland alone. He would ask why Ireland was in such
a condition ? He would ask why Ireland was as it is?
He would ask wealthy London—he would ask England?
There could be but one answer. It was the original
tyranny of England which produced it. He said it was
England which produced it, and he had no hesitation in
saying that England should relieve it. He called
upon their Lordships to relieve them. If 22,000
paupers were relieved by the rate-payers of Liver-
pool in one day, what an awful disclosure did
it make of the calamity which prevailed, and
of the necessity which existed for alleviating it.
With regard to the reclamation of waste land, that
was, in his opinion, the kind of work precisely from
which they ought most cautiously to abstain from all
interference. He very much feared that such an under-
taking on the part of Government would not be pro-
ductive of the anticipated benefit, as he believed that
Government were not the parties who could most effec-
tively carry out such a measure. He thought the
greatest possible difficulty would ensue if they adopted
this measure, and he took that opportunity of inti-
mating to them his apprehensions regarding it. He had
another view to which he wished to call their Lordships'
attention before he sat down. It might be an eidolum
in his own mind, but he thought that the entire system
of railway management should be in the hands of the
Government. Sure he was, however, that in Ireland, if
Government would undertake the construction of rail-
ways such a course would be of the greatest possible ad-
vantage. If they did undertake the construction of
railways, a better system of railways would be intro-
duced, than it the conflicting claims, views, and interests
of private parties were interwoven with them, and there
would be besides a more beneficial effect upon the em-
ployment of labour. It was by the operation of such a
system of railway construction that they could hope to
change the character, position, and location of the rural
population of Ireland, and it was for this reason that
he most earnestly directed their Lordships' attention to
the subject.
The Earl of MOUNTCASHEL said he was not at
that late period of the night going to test their Lord-
ship's patience by entering in detail into the history of
Ireland—(A laugh)—but one thing that he should
infer from this history was, that ever since Ireland had
been under the yoke of England—at all events up to the
time of the union—the influence of the former country
had been exerted to crush the trade and commerce of
Ireland. The truth of this assertion was shown by the
provisions of the Act of the 6th of George 1., the
obnoxious influence of which was not repealed
until the middle of the reign of George 111
He had been informed, and in fact had seen in one
instance, that where a few old cabbage leaves were
thrown into the mud they were eagerly seized by the
fp.aarcsottpatrthei
eattoorrssidxteos otsiuut
utptpiooofnr itaghnhadtt
was
aaabasos ui
of
fe
prmsa
starving wretches who were loitering about. It was a
s misery?
eni
possible
? Irelandor
ht
eh
ye were
Irish
nd
not. According to the valuation of Mr. Griffiths, the
rental of Ireland was 12,715,0001, per annum, and was
now about 13,000,0004 per annum in round numbers.
The amount of bonds, mortgages, tee., on landed pro-
perty in Ireland, was about eight years' purchase, or
100,000,000/., and that at 15 per cent. made 5,000,000/.,
and the law expenses and other incidental charges,
besides children's fortunes in marriage settlements, would
make, beside a total including the interest, 10,415,0001.,
leaving the balance of 13,000,0001. for the support of all
this distress. Was it possible, with less than three mil
lions per annum, to support a starving population and
themselves also ? The average cost of maintaining a
pauper was Is. 6d. per week, and that, taking the popu-
lation of Ireland— at least all the poor—would give
12,000,0001 per annum, to be paid out of less than three
millions per annum. The landlords were also placed in
a very bad position in consequence of the liability of
the tenants to pay up their rents ; and therefore it
would be only an act of justice to prevent the fore-
closure of the mortgages for a certain term—for
a term of three years—so as to enable them to
have some chance of bettering themselves.—( Hear, hear.)
The present system of letting land was such, that a
farm which forty years ago was in the possession of one
person, was now divided among forty, and in many
cases no rent whatever could be obtained. The fourth
of the produce of the land was that which ought to go
famThileiesp,eoapnlde otfhilsrewlaansd
tmhearrciaeudseyoofuntgh,eansdupgeort.
for rent, but it seldom happened that they realised so
large families,
abunt'ant population of that country. There were
690,000 some odd hundred farms in Ireland; of these,
310,000 were under five acre; in extent, 152,000 be-
tween five and ten acres, 79,000 not exceeding thirty
acres, and but 47,000 exceeded the latter extent. Such
was the minute divisions of farms which had taken
place. He was confident that if something was not
done this year, in eet:ing seed potatoes and oats, there
would be no crop next year, and matters would be worse
than they were at present. The Government ought to
take this question into its most serious consideration.
Having stated thus much, he would reserve what further
he had to say till a future occasion.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH did not intend say-
ing much now, as a future opportunity would be given
of discussing the question. Still he had a remark or
two to make on the address of the Noble Marquis (the
Nlarquis of Lansdowne). The Noble Marquis said the
Government intended to advance sums of money as
loans to the landlords to improve their estates, but he
(the Marquis of Westmeath) did not think many of
them could take advantage of that, unless different
arrangements were made respecting its application.
At present the intention of the best disposed
landowner could be defeated by any litigious person.
The Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack would
bear him out in saying, that if an injunction were applied
for to restrain waste land, it would at once be granted,
but in many instances the suing out of an injunction
would eat up the fee simple of an estate. He was before
Lnrd Devon's Commission in 1E44, and he stated there
that if a new mode of occupation was not struck' out' b
covnesyi-,elearresd, be'fatlilfinhgisbsaucukgoenstitohnesShtaadtebteoefnetehdetnhaeitnte.
thefi law, the whole country would, in a period of less thany
to, the calamities which they had been subjected to
°
would not have had such frightful results. He had held
a vonference w ith some of the legal authorities upon
subject. There were present the Lord Chancellor, the
they should
agreed
rebed
esmteedrel)th, that injunctionnt(lLeilei.arlitexopfeaio;
E. Sugden, Jieige Jackson, and ;air. Blackburne
c
latteredn c reduced
with him, and he was sure no one could prove that he
was in the wrong ; but Mr. Blackburne was made
Master of the Bolls, and there the matter ended.
(Laughter.) He thanked the House for their attention,
but he could not refrain from saying as much as he did.
Earl GREY said that he was sorry to prolong this
discussion, and he would only do so for a short time,
mere especially at that hour, when the House had been
reduced to such a small number; but as some remarks
had been made in the course of the debate to which

leetion. ---
But in the present plan, he, at first, saw no
,tit:e. He did see that there was likely to be a great
Was
%age for one class t.,1 „Ci3,::11,--1-110 -ti.
t be a large staff of that • vs for superintendents of the
Poblie corks,
superi superintendents of leheurers, farm overseers,
tas.,estendeets of police, and he did not know how many
'm • Whether these gentlemen would be ready to work
,I;_not, he did knew, though he was quite satisfied of one
011 g-that they would be quite ready to be paid. This was
eziti'aeterelass °f
pensioners of whom they were quite likely to have
ient. Then there was another subject, which was
worthy of consideration, end that was, how was the
If that of the millions of these loans to be paid?
tar at interest was to be paid, he trusted that the property-
Ke Well as the assessed taxes, would be extended to Ireland.
led not see why the man who hail 1401. a year should be
leelopted from the charge, for the safety and protection which
ere.arloyed from the State, any more than he o ho had 160/.
ither did he see any reason why a line should lse drawn in a
seaulireeroet line down the Bristol channel to separate mortgages, for
ers a great probability that as soon as the mortgage was
erred, that the holders of estates would begin to mortgage
:gain.-.(Laughter.) He did not mean to make any charges
ithsnst the Irish landlord which he did not allege also against
Isn a
o3ooe English proprietor. When Mr. Pitt gave a loan of
the • in 1792, and again for another of 6,000,0001. in
1757, t
e Elaine principle was adopted on both occasions, that of
alcaking the principal responsibilities and burdens form benefits
iraidvauta-es.
e Again, he conceived, that further, the sooner the
!:"try removed their measure from the character of a per-
,lent measure, the better. If it were to he made a permanent
theiaacaret it was not at all necessary that that should occur
no Year. They might have a temporary measure
tak and wait to see the turn which events would
ee Then there was the consideration, also, of the interest
e In a year and six months, the interest being secured on the
Mr. Percival affirmed the same thing in 1811, as did
war Lord Granville in the same year, contradicting the opinions
(41 he had entertained in 1795. Mr. Fox and Mr. Baring
!1w Lord Ashburton), also entertained the same opinion. In
the
terms of that loan it was expressly stipulated, that no Corn-
issioner, or any Member of Parliament in either House,
should receive one farthing of the Exchequer loan, and he
trustede that some such self-denying clause would be inserted in
he Bill for the loan now proposed. At least his Noble Friend
would not take anything.—(Laughter, and " Hear, hear," from
e Marquis of Lansdowne.) Oh, he knew that his Noble
Friend was one of the wealthiest individuals in Europe, and
Zje who did not need such assistance.—( Laughter. )
ne great advantage would be, to relieve the tenants
for life from the trammels in which they were now held,
for it might prove of immense benefit to those who were yet
nooorre But it was not money but food that the Irish people
required. The people were dying by thousands daily for the
want of food. They wanted corn, meal, something to eat,
which money could not immediately procure. Now, on the
west coast of Ireland there was an abundant supply of some
of the finest fish in the world, and they had only to send
nets and tackle to secure the food required by famishing
pillions. They wanted but nets and tackle to bring this
fish to market ; and they only required this assistance to ob-
tain an abundant supply of the most wholesome and nutri-
tious food that any one could desire. This would save the
corn and meal. He was sorry to say, that he was old
enough to recollect the scarcity of the year 1785 a
and he thought that there ought to be a legal
covenant such as existed at that time when the loaf of bread
was placed on the table, and
the servants and every one else
was debarred from touching it as much as if it had been gold.
No one was allowed to touch it, but the master of the family
and then he dealt it out in restricted quantities to all around
and none had more than their share, not a crumb was lost.
Bonie such rule might be adopted now, and it would prove
highly beneficial. Again it would be of the utmost benefit
II a restraint were put upon the use of pastry in the consump-
tion
of which a great quantity of flour was used, and still
further benefit would accrue if the higher classes who enjoyed
luxuries, and had resources to which their poorer neighbours
could not attain, would refrain from using bread but
use soups, fish, or any other nutriment with vegetables instead.
He had taken the liberty to throw out this suggestion,
from his recollection of 1800. He could assure their
Lordships that these measures had been very beneficial.
He would wish, however, to ask of the Noble Lord
whether he was able to give any estimation of the amount
of supply ?
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said it would be
hilpossible at present to state how much.
Lord DYSART said that while he was not of opinion
that the Government should go ransacking all the
granaries of the world in search of grain, he did think
they should have established depots. But, coming to the
immediate state of the country, there was unfortunately
no doubt that the greatest scarcity existed in Ireland. He
had received a letter from a Noble Friend of his,
Who had visited the scene of some of these appalling
statements of distress, and he stated that the greatest
suffering did really exist. They should consider the
Peculiar circumstances of the people of Ireland. There
were 3,500 individuals who, during the time they
wthreere otherwise unemployed, used to scrape toge-
manure, and by the assistance of this were
enabled to drag out a miserable and useless ex-
istence, but even of that they were now deprived.
estates the Government would give their
attention beggedthespeeially
the system of squatting. On his own
he had an instance of the inveterate disposition,
.for that when he was building a house for one of his
arrangement
for he found that the tenant had made an
f-orrahnagveinlngenhtisnot for pulling down the old tenement, but
iu it. He (Lord Dysart) was obliged to
refuse to have the building completed, unless he would
agreeLorto the old building being pulled down.
DEVON
Nheir
from LorddonDe EoVf
Noble Lordthought, after what he had heard
what had mustLo-rds'hips that night, that the
ofhave been totally neglectful
passed under his own eyes ; for
any_ one hearing that Noble Lord, and knowing nothing
oflrish legislation, would have thought that the British
Government for the first time had begun to legislate,
and, moreover, had all at once made a demand for a loan
for Irish purposes. The Noble Lord who had just sat
down, spoke the feelings of every honest landlord when
_fleera,dreitted the obligation rested on landed pro-
perty
to
mitigate the wants..of.Lhe poor. But the diffi-
culty weighing upon the 'aszbjeet was, that the landlord
didy not always represent th'd laid,'And then if he did not
e the means of meeting. this .obligations which fell
°Pon him as a landlord, of cosiest, he could not be ex-
Peoted to do it. But so -far--frodr-the proposal of the
Government being novel of, seisms, Ike recollected that
as far back as the first Labottrtlite act for Ireland, the
Government of that day adsfierited money for the " im-
provement, cultivation, and draTnage, and otherwise the
improvement of lands." Such4ese the words in which
the Government of that day lutd•made an advance of
111°Iley to the Irish landlords; and he (Lord Devon) was
sorry that the Noble Lord who had spoken on the sub-
ject had not exercised more industry in relation to the
subject—the same industry which he was accus-
tomed to show on other subjects. The Noble Lord, in his
observations had spoken of the classes who would be
affected by the failure of the potato crop ; but he must
tell him that all classes were affected by it more or
less, The lower classes scarcely ever saw money ;
betweea the farmer and the lower classes money hardly
ever passed. The farmer in Ireland had a great aversion
to bringing out money to pay for labour, for he knew
not the value to him of improvements on his farm, or
of having his fields well cultivated ; and, therefore he
hardly over employed the labourer at all. Moreover,
speaking of this subject, and the total neglect of cultiva-
tion,he knew some farmers who had got money for
their last year's crops, and they had actually deposited
that money in the savings banks, and then thrown
themselves for employment on the public works. He
said he had beard much abuse heaped during the
discussion that night, on the Labour rate Act of last
session; for his part he could not join in it; that Act
was passed at a time of emergency and under pecnliar
circumstances. He said he was not able to be present at
the discussion of that measure last year, but he did not
find by the public records, that there was much discus-
Sion on the subject, or that there was any great opposi-
tion, or that those who now abused it for,evil results
had made any opposition to its passing•—(Hear, hear.)
What, he asked, was then the position of Irish land-
lords? Many persons in that country made a general
demand for employment; for at that time the want of food
Was not so much felt as the want of employment to
enable them to buy it with.—(Hear, hear.) At
that time there were the two Drainage Acts, the
Agricultural as well as the Public Drainage Act
Was in operation, but yet beyond these means something
More was thought necessary, and therefore the Labour-
rate Act was introduced, and passed, to give employ-
ment to the necessitous. They had heard that Act de-
scribed as useless and positively mischievous. He did
not agree with such a condemnation of it ; the unem-
ployed had gained the means of a livelihood engaged in
the construction of public roads, and he believed that
those employed as overseers had not selected even a
h'andred perches that would he useless; nor would they,
ha was sure, make such a selection. He had a letter in
Tut hand which he had received from a gentleman in
"Lreo.nd, and in that letter the writer attributed tht
trangtz.llity of the people in his district to having had
the opporeinity of employing the people at an early part
of the season en the public works. Such had been one of
the eerest. 5..,3 uuell
said generally in souse companies, why could not the
landlords themselves employ the people on reproductive
works—for example, railways, and such like—without
any aid from Government. He asked, what was the
position of the Irish landlord ? But he would not go
into the difficulty of the position of an Irish landlord
on that occasion. This must be obvious, that if the
Labour-rate Act had not beets passed at the time it was,
the destitution and distress which would have ensued
must have been vast—greatly more aggravated than the
existing evils. He begged to make
one
suggestio n to
the Government. He said, it was a
question with
how far a person might be able to protect himself againstmlvNa
?n3
further increased taxation. The Go n'
Government r • a
that if any one would not take a loan to be employed
on reproductive works, then he must be subjected to the
taxes imposed upon the electoral division. But he (Lord
Devon) wished that a division was made which was
more select. It had been contended by some that if they
employed the people on their own town-land, they ought
to be free from further taxation. That was not the
question, for that was really giving a premium to the
man who had cleared his town-land. But his proposition
Was this—the taxes imposed by Government on an elec-
toral division would amount to so much ; he wished,
if his, for instance, and two more, wished to take a loan
Or give employment in proportion to the number or
"eras they possessed in the electoral division, that they
should be free from further taxation. As to the subject
o waste lands, which had occupied the attention of the
Government and their Lordships's House, he was of
Pinion that the application of the loan to this purposet Would be more profitable and more usefully made than
many other purpose,e and that, too, not with a view
,recovering them for the location of cottiers, but fer
allotting them out into large farms, which would be ad-
antageously cultivated both for this caintry and for
of 4niono }
A Noble Lord had suggested the ndvanceinent
ivi Le ' upon railway projects, a mode e hick
e lit good or not, but compared with
other, the reclamation of wasterlands as
this
itsh e
c)(lffe..e:ll,flefi. sale security and good remuneration, he
city preferred the last. He approved generally
merit measures
proposed by
the Government, which had
amongothersthat they proposed to meet the
evils of various
methods, all of which would tend to
give a stimulus to labour and employment. But, one
among the others deserved the attention of their Lord-

he felt it imperative to reply, he trusted they would
allow him their attention for the few moments be would
tresp2ss upon their indulrence. He alluded to what
was very improperly cahe.l the Labour-rate Act. Ile
thought that a great majority of Noble Lords had pro•
nouncd the strongest sentence of condemnation on tha
Act, and certainty, by the last of these Noble Lords
the impression might have been conveyed of a grave
censure on her Majesty's Government for want of com-
mon foresight and providence in this matter. Now he
could not help thinking that if they looked to the
period when this Act was passed, they would
come to the conclusion that the implied censure
on her Majestys Government was undeserved. The
Noble and Learned Lord said that this Act was passed
in a great hurry after the 15th August, and he concluded
that the advanced period of the session was proof suffi-
cient that the measure had been ill-digested. That
measure was a measure authorising presentment of
public works precisely of the same nature as the pre-
vious Act. Half the money was to be advanced from
local sources, and half from the British Treasury. This
was brought in last January, and large use was made of
these presentments for public works, and upwards of
1,300,0001. was given for these works. So great were these
works felt to be of advantage, that great complaints
were made from districts where those works were not
begun. But this was a misapplication of the fund, for
the money was granted for the relief of distress, and for
relief of distress alone, and not for public
works at all ; and great abuses were com-
mitted in the employment of persons who ought
never to have been put upon these works at all.
Yet notwithstanding these abuses the object was fully
attained, and the people were so relieved that they were
better off in the summer of last year. There was the
testimony of the Catholic clergy that such was the case,
and there was mere money paid into the savings' banks
than for years before. Ile was credibly informed, that
up to the middle of August the prospects of the potato
crop were of the brightest character, but all at once the
blight seemed to come over the whole of the crop. Was
it, then, unreasonahle that her Majesty's Government
should pass a measure to meet the evil? They did so.
They renewed the measure of the previous year, but
they obviated the evil which had formerly been
endured. It was found that the abuse of the
presentments for public works had been occa-
sioned by the desire to obtain roads where they were
wanted. The delay in the consideration of the mea-
sures for Ireland, by the protracted debates on the com-
mercial policy of the country, threw these measures
late, but tkey were passed, and those abuses were ob-
viated. It should be recollected, that the great object
of this Bill was not the formation of public works, but
the relief of distress. This was an important conside-
ration, and ought to kept carefully in view. Let it be
recollected how relief was obtained for distress in Eng-
land when it occurred in any of our great towns.
Why, when anything of this kind occurred in Norwich,
Nottingham, Sheffield, or Manchester, subscriptions
were raised, and the amount collected was distributed
through the agency of a committee ; and, doubt-
less, in some instances, unworthy objects obtained
the relief. Just something of this kind had occurred
in the Bill of last year. Abuses had unquestionably been
committed, but he contended that the abuse was not to
be ascribed to the Bill, but to the way in which it had
been carried out. It would, however, be a painful thing to
go into these details, and happily it was not necessary.
But if any one were to be charged with the evils that
had occurred, undoubtedly the Noble Lord the Secre-
tary for Ireland was responsible for the mischief. Still,
however, he must again insist to their Lordships that
the object of that Bill was not the construc-
tion of public works, but the relief of the general distress.
It was true that the Bill had failed, but whose fault was
it? Whose business was it to see that none others but
those who were destitute were employed on these works?
Why, it was the duty of those who had the management,
and resided in the districts where the works were going
on. When similar works were being carried on in Not-
tingham and other large towns, no men were
employed on them who could find employment
elsewhere. But what had been the case in Ireland?
Why, men who were engaged in improving the
land gave up that employment, and were allowed to go
and work on public works, increasing the amount of
distress, and diminishing the supply of food for the
people. It was necessary that the House and the country
should know the truth upon these matters. In August
and September last ahere was an universal cry and pres-
sure upon the Government to commence works. In a
particular case from %Vest Corinne, there came a deputa-
tion to the Government, who declared that thenecessity for
undertaking work in that county was urgent and could
not possibly be postponed, and yet, by the following post,
there came accounts from that district saying that they
were growing in that neighbourhood an unusually fine
crop of corn, which was suffering from the want of
hands to cut it.—(Hear, hear.) He admitted the diffi-
culties the Irish gentry had had to contend with. They
had not the advantage of the middle class of this country
to tell who were the really destitute, but still, if the
measure failed through deficient machinery for carrying
it out, it was not fair to lay all the blame at the door
of the Government.—(Hear, bear, and cheers.) It was
his firm conviction that had the Government received the
proper co .operation of those whose duty it was to give it,
the measure would have succeeded, more especially it
works had not been unnecessarily presented, and none
but really destitute had been employed.---(Hear, hear.)
It had succeeded in Scotland, where the proprietors of
land had borrowed large sums of money under similar
powers, which they had applied to the improvement of their
estates, and the result was, the population of the distressed
districts had been well supplied with food and employment.
lie thought that when the House was in possession of
the papers intended to be laid upon the table of their
Lordships' House, they would be of opinion that the
Government had done all that could possibly be ex-
pected of them to do under the circumstances in which
they were placed. It was the duty of the Government
not to have opened the depots until the latest possible
period--a considerable time was to elapse before the
next harvest could be got in. The amount of grain, of
all 'kinds, entered for home consumption in the year
1846, exceeded 4,800,000 quarters. There were agents
for the British merchants in every market, buying every
quarter of wheat they could lay their hands upon. if
the Government, then, had entered into the market,
the most disastrous results would have followed a policy
so perfectly suicidal, and therefore the Government
could only obtain a limited supply, which was, of course.
obliged to be most parsimoniously preserved. If there
was one thing more essential to the benefit. of Ireland, it
was the establishment of a class of retail traders, and if,
when that class was just springing up, the• Government
had entered into the market and cut up th e bud of that
opening, it would have been a most injurious and fatal
line of policy. With reference to emigration, he be-
lieved the Government would only have done mischief
had they attempted to provide the means of emigration
upon an extensive scale and failed in the attempt. The
number of emigrants during the last ten years was
687,000, and during the last year the number amounted
to 110,000; the greater majority of these were Irish,
and had the Government sent out a still larger number, it
might be doubtful whether, upon their landing, the proper
means of subsistence could have been obtained for them.
Those who went to Canada in this way, after a while
remitted money home in order to bring out their fami-
lies ; 37,0001. had within a short period been remitted
in this way to Liverpool. But if the plan of the Noble
Lord opposite was adopted, parties would not endeavour
to find their way out at their own expanse, no remit-
tances would take place, and the whole cost would de-
volve upon the Government. Without any aid from
their Lordships, the tide of emigration would
continue to increase. He might, say that
next year tke number of emigrants would be doubled.
He agreed with the Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) who
spoke early in the evening, that the Government could
render essential service to emigrants by pointing out to
them how to proceed, what districts to select, and to
afford them other important information., They should
not forsake the system of caution adopted by the Noble
Lord whilst in office. He should shortly, however, lay
papers before their Lordships which would afford the
fullest information on the subject. Such were the views
which her Majesty's Government entertained on the
subject.
After a few words from Lord FERRAIW,
Lord MONTEAGLE said that he could not allow
the debate to close without adverting t;o some expres-
sions which had been used by the Sec rotary of State.
There had been a remarkable übstinetic,! from vitupera-
tion during the whole course of the debate; he con-
fessedip repellingut
at
thiamt Lt hwe Nobleimputationsou s
tiLordfu pa
no
upon
hadidh enr ob more rj
cast,
'thanyt
bu ht i
hs
ed
Government.o
shouldt y, b 3
ric(ollileeacrt, that, in imThpuegnLinagbotuhre-rLataebc .uArc• rtatewaAtsct
oneno
of
ad
pthoeintewdoorustt
inwthhiechAnht
sgeisietrweehrxiicsli,), the
the statute-book. All the aabnaluiNoblePu upon
been put
itn said so
Lord
much the less for the enactment, for he: c
out any good which had arisen from it—it enildbaodt pointbeen
wholly inoperative for any good puree:
If the Labour-
rate Act, which his Noble Friend so strongly recom•
mended, was so good, why propose not ! to set it aside?
Ile had, however, not denied the
sure, but the cause of it was allege d to have arisen
not from the conduct of
the people, but be
cause of the want of co-o ' peration on the part
of the Irish landlords. To that hoE w mild answer, that
there was no place in the Britsh far less Ire-
land, where such a measure would bein Pire'
allowed to con-
tinue. The Labour-rate Act had been Si most unfortunate
measure, and had failed from its
imperfect maeibinery—
not from the want of the co-operation of the Irish land-
owners. The operation of the Act had been a
mtin-
ordinate increase in the rate of wages compared with
what they ordinarily were in the districts where the law
was brought into operation. The Presentment sessions
were a most imperfect and injurious mode of securing
improvements. Those sessions %Nam generally called
together without any notice, and the business
was transacted in the press lice of excited
multitudes, who were eager to get the votes of money
without relation to the possibility of raising the money,
or the mode of its application. Presentments were, in
consequence, made faster than the clerks could write
them down. At these sessions they, had the engineer
and the officer of the hoard of work:,, who in some mea-
sure would be a protection against; the indiscriminate
adoption of the hundreds of preset] tments that are now
cast before the magistrates. Much misrepresentation
had been put before the public wale respect to the pro-
ceedings at presentment sessions, but they who did so had
notconsidered the many ditbculties bet ietting them. At one
sessions, of which ho was chairman, tt te presentments were
so numerous that on asking the a dvice of the officer
of the Board of Works, he suggeste d that they should
all be sent up to the Board, when. a selection would be
made, and thus the hands of the niagistrates would he
strengthened ; and yet, notwithstu nding this, he (Lord
Monteagle) and other Irish proprietors had been re-
proached for sending up a mass of presentments to the
Board of Works without attempting anything like a
selection, when, in this case, the eq IMO was. adopted at

the instigation of their own officer. He would just ad-
vert to one other topic in connexion with the distress
in Ireland, and that was the remedy of emigration.
In some parts of Ireland society was, in what he might
call, a congested state, and the only remedy, therefore,
was the topical one of emigration. He did not speak so
much of national as local emigratimi. The Noble Lord
said that he did not so much intend to aid the emigrant
in this country as on the other side. But great care
was necessary in the distribution of this aid for the pur-
poses of Government would be lost if, instead of aiding
the more destitute, they granted assistance where such
was not so much required. He would not have risen
that evening had it not been for the laboured defence of
the Act passed last session by his Noble Friend, and he
would not have even risen in consequsnc of that defence
had it not been for the assertion of his Noble Friend
that the failure of that Bill was solely owing
to the want of co-operation on the part of Irish
landlords. He (Lord Monteagle) would be prepared to
prove, in the course of these discussions, that there were
elements in the constitution of that Bill which must have
necessarily made it a failure.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said he must be
permitted to make one or two observations on this sub
ject. He thought that the Noble Lord who had spoken
last had altogether misapprehended the remarks made
by his Noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies who did
not pretend to say that this Act was to be a permanent
Act for the good of Ireland. He only stated that it
was the best scheme that could be devised at the time,
and it was only found inefficient because it had not been
supported in that country. They then left those parts
which they thought were not faulty; and, indeed, left the
Bill pretty nearly as they found it. Now, he must refer
to the assertion that these presentments were all sent
up together. Was that the way in which local business
was transacted in England? Did they notprivately discuss
the measures of local importance a little in private, and
then, making a selection, prefer those which they thought
to be the best? Then, with regard to the Building Act.
It had totally failed them—at least to the extent of
100,0001.—but it had failed entirely through the act of
the lawyers; and it was in consequence of the communi-
cation on this point that the contents of the letter
was addressed to Mr. Labouchere. That Act had been
introduced by the Noble Lord himself. But there was
one thing which he could not help feeling a little hard,
and that was, that while under the difficult circumstances
in which they had been placed, all their measures had
been condemned, but no one had attempted to point out
what measures they ought to have adopted. He did
hope for great benefit from the measures which the Go-
vernment were about to adopt, especially from that prin-
ciple of emigration to which so much allusion had been
made, but he would not, at that late hour of the night,
enter upon any further consideration of the subject.
WORKHOUSES IN IRELAND.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE laid on the table
copies of the correspondence on the state of workhouses
in Ireland, together with several returns of the state of
the poor in Ireland and Scotland.
The House then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Jan. 25.
THE STATE OF IRELAND.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL (in continuation from our
Third Edition of last night) proceeded to say--I
should state, with regard to the financial part of the
question—with regard to the sums hitherto issued,
that they have been issued out of the balance in the
Exchequer charged on the Consolidated Fund, but
it neither has been, nor is it now in contemplation to
make any new issue of Exchequer-bills in order to meet
this demand But, however, it must be considered
when we are making these propositions to Parliament,
that it is placing a -very considerable burden upon the
finances of the country—(Hear, hear)--and that in
placing that burden on the finances of this country I do
feel myself disabled from making some propositions
which I should be called upon to make .andali
of them entailing expense, but with the very heavy
burden arising from the destitution in the present
year, it would be hardly fair for the people
of this country, to propose them ; because,
whether it is stated that the burden is bore
by the Consolidated Fund, or whether the burden be
borne by the imperial Treasury and the general finances,
it must always be recollected that these sums are not to
be granted by Parliament or the Government without the
most serious consideration, for they are all sums derived
from the payment of the people of this country, and who
pay it on their soap, their sugar, and their tea and
coffee. It is from that source is derived the surplus by
which we are enabled to come to the assistance of Ire-
land. Tke people are willing, as I think, to do all that
is liberal in this respect. We must always consider what
is meet and just to the people of this country. We must
consider the difficulty and privatiole and by what hard
labour they earned these sums.—(Loud cries of " Hear,
hear.) As to the other part of this subject which I men-
tioned, namely, the advances made under authority of
the Lord-Lieutenant's order, and of the letter of my Right
Hon. Friend (Mr. Labouchere),—the advances having
been made to persons who really wish to assist in carrying
this measure into effect, and to effect improvements, mak-
ing their own estates liable,—we do think it necessary that
the terms of the Treasury minute of the Ist of December
should be applied to those who have accepted advances
under Mr. Labouchere's letter, and that instead of re-
quiring repayment in 10 years a period of 22 years shall
be taken ; that the provisions for carrying this proposal
into effect should be in terms of the Drainage Act of last
year; and that in regard to its beneficial employment the
whole of that money will be expected to be paid as under
that Act.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, I have now stated
what I think we can do for the present relief
of the distress in Ireland. There is, how-
ever, another question, to which I must confess some-
what of hesitation in making the proposition I intend to
do to the House, but yet, on the whole, we think we are
right in recommending to Parliament that
we should be enabled to grant a sum of
money, not exceeding 50,0001., to be repaid before
the end of the present year, that is by the 31st of
December, 1847, to enable the proprietors to pur-
chase seed.—(Hear, hear.) I do not mean that
the Government should make those advances to the
small tenant-farmers themselves, because I think the
principle is exceedingly dangerous that the Governmens_
should an occasion come like the present, assume
the character of a lender, but I also think
that if these advances were made to the proprietors the.
measure would not be fraught with harm, while it would
be found beneficial to the country.—(Cheers.) Sir, in
stating these measures to the House, I wish, atthe same
time, to declare that we cannot expect, and we dontitan-
pect, to be able, by any measures of Government,
ry.o I
measures which Parliament may sanction, to_wawa.
.cfrh
or prevent, the effect of this awful visitation under Di
we labour.—(Hear, hear.) It is not in the pewer.tof
man to do away with the effect of such a calami yn.
Nor, Sir, should I think that any one would
us so impossible a task us to make so presump-
impo o
tuous an attempt, were it not that I have read
in one of the newspapers an address signed
by the Marquis of Sligo and Mr. George Dloore, both
most respectable individuals, both persons well worthy
of deference on the part of their poorer country-
men. It is stated in the newspapers that they
have travelled through twenty-seven counties;
in order to make their propositions popa,l,a.ro.
" We, therefore, earnestly entreat you," they say, l'
meet us at Castlebar, at eleven o'clock on Monday next,
fights
quietly, peaceably, and like men worthy of the
you mean to demand, then and there to petitio Prarliaflof this
went to take such steps as may ensure an imi ediate,
constant, and cheap supply of food to the peops
country during the famine which surrounds us,, o
aliclth:,
famine which is impending over the country.
that in a
Sir, that I am astonished—(Loud cheers)
men who
time of famine men of educationd
ought to love their country—shoal
in the language of this address, that
may
tt ehlel y them,
wera
insure
to demand from Parliament " steps which, f , ~_
of 00..
an immediate, constant, and cheap supply it is it
They
Why, Sir, that is a task They
possible for us to perform.—(Loud,,
visitation
should tell their countrymen,
a task made
which
l Ie
oe r s . )
under which we are suffering is
that is a
impossible for man to
retask beyond all human power topreerfvoer—m."—(Cheers).
part
All we can do is in some mode or other t:haaltietvoialitgehtthene
miseries of the people—(Cheers)—some
to save a
the dreadful calamity—in some in But they
of the people of this country.
(rn scarcity and even
must not imagine that we can to
,lothotatthiet
Sir, what sur-
-ensareeers. )
famine into plenty.—(Cheers )
prises me more even than thhirsa.wnnh
so happens that at Castle are,
nested to meet, it does
elivneethnieenpteoips
surrounding countryanareanionq
workhouse ; that union
happen that theres
workhouse should contain 600 inmates, but it at
present contains not more than 130, the doors being
t the admission other persons, the
of
closed agains iI
guardians saying
no II want
te r.c fliee foodr that it is impossible for them to levy
o
rates in order to otherenable
personsnd c in
to come to that union.—(Cheers
ot paid those rates
those who have n —who have
Among means by
which
famine might be,
not furnished the o
.
vert d are some whom we
to a certain degree, a b
.0 must e fully able to
cannot but suppos them, and I pay
those rates due
free'
moat unhappy t cdannot but see
in this proposal a
ih ch 11. he en ency_ass en.
happy tendency
w end to others tomd
formoreure than once
remarked—to recomblme
• thing, and call u them some
vague and impossi. upon the Govern-
ent to do
Govern-
ment or the Parliament to something, the nracti-
. . h has not been considered or to confer
cability of which
may be either Visionaryradical or impos-
sible, while the plain
prtae sustenance ty— (Loud cheers)—of
paying the rates
for
children enance of the starving
men, women, and chilh in the immediate neigh-
bourhood is left neglected _ and unheeded.--(Cheers.)
Sir, I am obliged to say, therefore, that while we at-
tempt all that we think. practicable, we must, in the
first place, refuse to make promises the performance of
which we think out of our power; and, in the next
place, we must call upon% and expect those who have
local duties to perform in Ireland, to perform those
duties, and to assist the Government and the Parliament
in the arduous performance of theirs.—(Cheers.) Sir,
when I say that we expect this, I am
quite sure that by
many those duties will be performed, because I know
there are many, very many, instances of resident pro-
prietors in Ireland who have been most ready with their
money, with their time, and with their a en ance tt d
n
endeavouring to provide for their destitute '
i
tenants
(Cries of "Hear, hear.") Sir, a roceed .
to another part of this subject, and I i T then
trust
the House will give me their attention while I ask them
to follow the proposal of other measures
we think may be beneficial notol which
permanently beneficial to Ireland. nNy o now, but
the first place, that we think —say, in
may have been unhappily directed from although we
of general principles with regard to these the observance
Ido think that we should observe dies measures, yet
as far as possible, and that they egeneral principles
regard to the interference of the Gov prescribe thus much with
that that interference may b© given ernment—vve think
in three ways, and
that those three ways ought, as far as possible,

to be kept separate and distinct, namely—that which so often reach the ears of the public ;
and when inquiry is made as to ho are the persons
Government, with the support and sanction of
Parliament, may grant assistance to individuals - who ought to ho responsible for that destitution, and
to proprietors—for the purpose of improving their who are called upon to subscribe for relief, it is impos-
Yma Ing• sible to fix on them or find out who those persons are.
private property, to assist in public works,
It is not so in England and Scotland, where, in the most
loans, or partly by grants for public works which areot
distressed districts, the proprietors charge, tiliAmselves
evident public utility; and, thirdly, to enact that relief
and their estates with a considerable debt;•itiita make
should be given by law to the destitute.—(Cheers.)
I think these three modes ought to be kept themselves responsible for advances of mon*, ?y sihich
as far distinct as possibe —that is to say, that when they may relieve their tenants and dependants frosts. the
you advance money to a private individual, for the calamity under which they are at present labi.hg4ng.
purpose of improving his property, that you (Hear, hear). Sir, under the second head of üblic
should take security so far as this, that it is for that Works there comes the subject of fisheries.
purpose, and not to be spent in extravagance, I have not at present any distinct statement to make
or for any other purpose—(Cheers)—but laid out simply upon that subject, but I may inform the House that in
for the purpose for which it is granted, but that beyond the course of last autumn three establishments for the
that you should interfere as little as possible with manufacture of salt, for the purposes of curing, were
the use of that money.—(Hear, hear.) That, for founded ; there was a vast amount of fish caught, but
instance, you should interefere as little as possible a much greafer amount might have been had were it not
in compelling him to employ a certain class of labourers, that the fisheries were almost neglected by the fishermen
and to conduct the works in a certain manner, which for the:cultivation of their portions of land. We trust,
Government may lay down as to the best manner in however, to bring forward a measure on this subject in
which they could be performed, or in any other way, the course of the session. Sir, there is another subject
which would prevent him from having the free use on which lam likewise not prepared to make any state-
of the loan advanced by the Government.—(Hear.) ment to the House, but on which I know there are large
Now, Sir, such is the principle of the measure of which expectations entertained in Ireland. It is the very im-
lam about to speak. It is a measure founded on the portant subject of emigration. I confess I think that,
various Acts which have preceded it, the chief of which although Parliament may assist towards emigration,
is the Drainage Act of last session, and which came into the extravagant expectations that are entertained
operation on the Ist of December. According to this on this head can never be realised. It is
Act, and the minute of it which appears on the stated by Sir Robert Kane, and most truly stated, that
book, it is proposed that certain assistance where pauper families have been removed, they never
shall be given for the improvement of estates
can be removed in such numbers as to have any sensible
and for the reclaimation of waste lands, where such effect on the remaining population. But there is this
improvement of the value shall prove no detriment to to be considered, that if by some extraordinary effort
the legal heirs, and that the advances for such improve- you can increase the ordinary emigration, if you can
ment shall be provided out of the public funds. The expect to convey a million of persons across the
usual mode has been to grant these advances from the seas, you must consider that the question is not
Treasury, on an interest of five per cent. In the simply whether these people have, or have not,
Drainage Act of last year, three-and-a-half per cent. the means of profitable labour, you must consider, also,
was charged, making, with the other expenses, 61 per
cent., to be retained for twenty-two years, when the whether there is in the country to which they emigrate
such means, and what they are. If by a large addition
sun given be repaid. I propose an advance on the to the public funds you could convey hundreds of
terms of the Drainage Act, and to extend the term for thousands of persons to the United States, the United
the improvement I have mentioned. In doing this, I States would most justly complain that we cast upon
must say that the Noble Lord opposite is in no way them our paupers, when this was a duty properly
responsible for the deficiency which has been experienced incumbent on ourselves. (Hear, hear.) If you
iu consequence of the working of the Drainage Act, but introduce hundreds of thousands of paupers into your
I conceive that the improvement of the estates, if the colonies, you will find that the labour market is
term be extended, as well as the construction of roads, glutted, and instead of benefiting the colonies, you
will amply repay the money that has been advanced perpetuate a race of beggars over the country.
during that term. lam convinced that the plan which The consequence would be the crowding of Nova Scotia
I have adopted is better than that which has been pro- and Halifax with beggars. In considering this subject
posed by the Lord-Lieutenant for the relief of the poor when I held the seals of the Colonial-office, although I
in Ireland. These are the reasons which have prompted confess I was then disposed to go further than I could
me to adopt this measure; and I believe that it will go, in consequence of the obstacles in my way, arising
not only be found to provide profitable employ- from the state of the finances, but I did think that
ment for the poor, but will also prove of great advan- the best mode by which emigration could be pro-
tege to property. We propose also to make a grant for moted was by taking charge of the emigrants, not
general works, such works as shall not only be important at his present place of abode, not at the port of his
in themselves, but which will prove of permanent ad- embarkation alone, nor at the port where he disem-
vantage to the country. We propose thin in addition to barked, but conveying him from there to some
the money to be granted to the proprietors of field where the emigrants might find a mar-
estates, and to give to the Board of Works ket for their labour; accordingly I proposed a
the general superintendence of the loans We certain grant for the purpose of emigration, which has
propose, therefore, to consolidate and amend these since been continued from time to time, sometimes to a
laws. We propose, likewise, on the same principle to larger and sometimes to a smaller amount. By means of
which I have just adverted, namely, the principle of this grant many poor families have been conveyed from
promotinggreat public works for the benefit of the State, Quebec to Montreal, and from Montreal to Kings-
we propose to undertake the reclamation of portions of ton and the interior parts of Western Canada.
the waste lands of Ireland. It has long been stated and been placed in situations where they could earn
in various reports of Commissions, in reports of Cora- wages and be comfortably settled. The emigration
mittees of this House, in the works of eminent writers, going on in this way has been in the past years very large.
that in many cases the reclamation of the waste In the year 1845, there went to our North American
lands of Ireland would produce large profits if colonies 31,000 persons, to the United States 58,000,in eking
they were properly cultivated. Mr. Robert Dale, a total of nearly 90,000. In the first three quarters of
in his most interesting work upon the indus• the year 1846, which contains the great bulk of the
rial resources of Ireland, says, he thinks the emigration of the year, there went to our North
estimate of 4,600,000 acres of waste land may be re- American colonies 42,404 emigants, to the United States
claimed, farmed, and cultivated with profit, and by no 67,792, making a total of 110,196. The report from the
means an exaggerated estimate. Now, we propose to Agent of Emigration in Canada states that "during
devote a million of money to this purpose, and we the past year a much larger number of Irish emi-
propose, should the proprietor of the waste land be grants had arrived in a state of destitution, as
unwilling to sell or reclaim his land by means of the to bed and clothing, exceeding anything that
loans I have mentioned, or out of his own resources, that he had ever before witnessed." The report goes
there should be a compulsory power to take and improve on to say, " that among the earlier emigrants there was
the waste lands which are below a certain value. We no distress except that resulting from their own mis-
propose that that value should be put down at 2s. 6d. conduct, and that employment could be easily obtained at
Mr. GOULBURN—Is that the annual value? remunerative wages, and that the carrying out of
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Yes, the annual value. the public works would give additional employment, and
We propose upon this data to improve and reclaim the that the formation of the Montreal and Quebec Rail .
waste lands so far as general operations are ways would give employment to a much larger number
concerned; that is, roads are to be made and of persons. I should certainly be afraid to give
general draining is Lo be effected. The necessary build- anything like a stimulus to emigration, to such an
ings are to be erected, but we do not propose to take extent as to send a large number of paupers where
upon ourselves the cultivation of the land. It having they could not obtain the means of support, and
been so reclaimed, we propose that it should be divided involving a large outlay and waste of public money.
into lots, not below nor above a certain quantity. Ido Under these circumstances it could not be expected
not think it necessary to mention figures, but I that the State would undertake the whole expenses of
would say not less than 25, nor more than 50 acres, and an extensive system of emigration. Sir, there are some
when reclaimed, the land shall be let or sold in these difficulties with regard to a general system of emi-
quantities ; if let, the tenant at the expiration of his gration which cannot easily be encountered, and
lease to have the option of purchasing his allotment the plans on which it is proposed to be carried are oh-
I confess that I do expect that great advantage will jectionable, although there are some kinds of emigration
arise from this plan. I do expect that a great many which are not objectionable, and to which I hope facili-
persons who have been driven t 3 despair and crime from ties will be given. But I do not propose on the
the great demand for land, will be enabled by such holdings part of the State that any Government plan of emi-
to earn a competent living. I think, also, that you will gration should be undertaken, and whether I may or may
raise a small class of proprietors who may be very in- not bring forward any measure to facilitate emigration
duatrious and very independent, which will form a very on the part of the Government. I wish to give no hope
valuable class. Let me say, in the meantime, that, as of an extensive system of emigration.—(Hear, hear.)
far as I can form a judgment, I do dot think the Sir, I know not if the calculations of Sir R. Kane may 1
small holdings are the great evil of Ireland. be taken altogether as a sober estimate, but he main-
I do believe that the method on which land has tains that there are such resources in Ireland—such agri-
been held is the chief source of its want of cultivation ; culturalresources—(llear)—independently of the mineral
but Ido not think that the small holdings of the country resources of the country, and the means of employ-
have been injurious : and I have arrived at that conclu- ment by water power for manufacture—that no less than
sion from the fact, that the most prosperous and best 17,000,000 of people could be maintained out of them.
cultivated county in Ireland is Armagh—a county in Ido not enter into this calculation i bur this T
which the greatest division of 1..4 ovi.te. If you cum- say that lau nut stunk, if tneie 'Nem a good system of
pare the whole province of Ulster with that of Munster, agriculture introduced—if there were a good security
you will find that there are many more divisions in the for investment of money in land—(Hear, hear)—if
province of Ulster in proportion to that of Munster. I the proprietors themselves undertook the task of im-
believe, therefore, in adopting this plan, and by giving a proving the oountry, if the other classes co-operated
compulsory power, a great advantage may be secured.— with them—l do not think the present population
(Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, I come to the third class of of Ireland is excessive.—(Hear, hear.) And now,
propositions. I have stated, and I wish to repeat it, before I conclude, if the House will so far
that the measures which I am now stating are those bear with me, I will venture to allude to those countries
whick we intend immediately to introduce, and that lam which apparently had been in as bad a state, so far as
not referring to those which we have in contemplation, and their general condition was concerned, as Ireland, and
which we think it will be our duty afterwards to propose. which we now see flourishing, and in the possession of
But I say these measures, which we now submit, are cal- peace. I think there may be some good in that retrospec-
culated- to promote the improvement of Ireland, and tion, because I know that in the many evils that have af-
will enable proprietors to obtain sufficient funds to make flicted Ireland—especially in viewing the present cala-
great improvements upon their estates, and also to pro- mitt'—there are some who are disposed to despair. I
vide the means whereby works of a more public do not despair ; I see no reason, unconnected with those
nature may be carried out.—(Hear, hear.) The laws which happily have ceased to exist—unconnected
third class of measures to which I have alluded are with unhappy circumstances to which I do
those intended simply to afford relief to the destitute. not like to allude, but which the Poor -law Commis-
It will be remembered that when the Poor-law Commissioners have generally inquired into—unconnected with
sion of Inquiry made its report, it advised that only a these circumstances, I see no reason why Ireland may
certain class should be relieved, and in that class it ex- not become a state enjoying the greatest prosperity.
eluded those who were infirm and permanently disabled. I will read the description of a country in which these
We thought, upon the whole, that it was much safer, in evils were stated to occur by an old English writer :—" The
the first instance, to have workhouses erected in Ireland, husbandmen be thrust out of their own, or else either by
and not to confine the relief to any particular class of men. covin or fraud, or violent oppression, they be put beside
Sir, it is not only the experience of all those acquainted it; or by wrong and injuries they be so wearied that they
with the present state of things, but it is our own opi- be compelled to sell all. By one means, therefore, or by the
nion, founded on a general view of the state of Ireland, other, either by hook or by crook, they must needs depart
that the poor-law should be more extensive than it is. away, poor, wretched souls,—men,women, husbands,wives,
I therefore propose to bring in a Bill for the purpose of fatherless children, widows,woful mothers with theiryoung
more efficiently meeting the distress in Ireland, which babes, and the whole household, small in substance and
shall confer on the poor.law guardians powers to afford much in number; as husbandry rcquireth many hands;
relief either in or out of the workhouse to all parties away they trudge, I say, out of their known and accus-
disabled by bodily ailment.--(Hear, hear.) This tomed house., finding no place to rest in. All their
is what we propose in _ the Bill to do; and to give household stuff, which is very little worth, though
due effect to the measure, in the first place, the it might well abide the sale—yet, being suddenly
guardians shall have the power, as a general rule, to thrust out, they be constrained to sell it for a thing
use the workhouse as a test of destitution ; and, in of nought; and, when they have wandered about till
the second place, to afford relief to the starving people that be spent, what can they then do but steal, and then
at their own houses, in order to satisfy the general justly pardy, be hanged, or else go about a-begging ?"
feeling of the country on this matter. —(Cheers.) Sir, I This 'was a description not unlike that of parts of Ire-
also propose, that in cases when the workhouse is full, land, where wretched families, being turned out of their
that the Poor law Commissioners shall have '
power to holdings, were driven at once either to the commission
direct the guardians to give relief out of the workhouse of robbery' or to go about begging. Yet the description
to the able-bodied poor. My opinion is that this power I have read is that given of England by Sir Thomas
should be cautiously used, and that the workhouse, as a More—(Hear, hear)—that was an account of England
general principle, should be employed as a test of 'able his day. 'lf any one should suppose this was
bodied destitution only •, still I think the House will ia nn effortimagination, of the I can assure him
agree with me, that the Poor-law Commissioners should
that we have other authentic accounts which
have the power to make alterations in the operation
corroborate it, and in which it is stated that
of this test.—(Cheers.) I propose, therefore, that in the people roved about in bands of from 200 to 300 at a
cases of urgent necessity—that is, in such cases where time, who lived entirely by stealing or begging, taking
the able-bodied make application for relief—that these cattle from the fields, and committing such excesses,
shall be relieved out of the workhouse, but in that not anything or any place was safe. In
food only.—(Hear, hear.) We further propose such numbers, indeed, did the people roam, that
that relieving officers shall be appointed, whose it is said that as many as seventy thousand thieves,
duty it shall be to take cognizance of all cases of distress, rogues, and vagabonds were hanged in one day. I will
and who, in urgent cases, when t'iero is danger of the now turn to the state of society in another country,
people starving, shall have the power to give whore an equal degree of prosperity is known to pre-
relief out of the workhouse till the next meeting veil. It is a description of the country at the end of
of the board of guardians such meeting to decide on the 17th century, and in this description it is stated that
what arrangemeut shall be made for the paupers so great was the number of families that had been
relieved in this manner in future.—(Hear, hear.) driven from their own homes, that as many as
Such therefore, is the nature of the measures which I 200,000 to 300,000 individuals were known to be
propose immediately to introduce. There are, as I have prowling about the country, living by steal-
stated, other measures which have been and are under ing and begging from door to door. It was,
the consideration of Government. With respect to the indeed, believed that 100,000 persons who were con-
first class to which I have alluded—that class of tinually on the prowl about the country, and though the
measures which enable proprietors to make better poor people who lived upon farms would give relief
use of their own properly, to increase theit to as many as forty persons in one day, yet
capital and improve theip estates—we have under con • they could not avoid being insulted, or protect themselves
sideration measures which shall facilitate the sale of from the commission of the most grievous depredations.
private property.—(Hear, hear.) There are two modes Such is the description of industrious, sober Scotland at
by which it is to be done—one mode is, I think, taken the end of the 17th century.—(Hear, hear.) It shows
from the general principle of the Copyhold Act. Every that a country which has been without order
one knows that there are private Bills passing every year where robbers were, where industry was neglected, may
by which certain individuals are allowed to sell a por- afterwards become orderly and civilised, and I think we
tion of their estates, in order to pay off encumbrances should be unworthy of our position as Members of
One way of carrying into effect the principle I have Parliament, if we were to give way to despair.
mentioned would be to propose that there should be in the present case.—(Cheers.) Sir, I know, however,
general Bills, giving the Commissioners power to exa- that what I have touched upon relating to the social state
mine into each case, and then having the Bills passed of Ireland—touching as I have done upo_n(mnaenayr,ihmepaorro-
in another period of the session, by which, instead taut measures—is but a part of
kthekcaatse.
apart from politi-
of ono private Bill, many private Bills would be lam not one of those w.h9
other—ss
sanctioned by Parliament. Another ewre mode which we cal questions—from. politiatltii
have under consideration, by which the samet
the
towotuld tious connected with political
of beneficent Government can
be gained, could be done by. application_ country
merely
clu es
It is my opi-
to prosperity be required, and the
have the subject nion that other means will .
ystthis moment which and happiness.—(Cheers.)
when _
Ii
refits
—i
tuftrieomn s
I shall like- proper time comes for preparing such measures I shall
restore
under our earnest consideration.
mChodaenewereys.hla shall cannoteven t eventually
in Ire- ioerad y tO undertake anything for the benefit of Ire.
Bills by which those tenures
Sir,
I feel that, with respect to these and all
wise prepare leasehold tenures, land ; but,
land, which are called longthins
converted into freehold other measures, that there are which
may be
renewable for ever,
speaking,with regard to the Crown cannot grant, which arliament
tenures. I must say, generally f
Ireland, the most in- eannot grant, such as a spirit of self-reliance, a
the present unfortunate state
whichof
property is held in spirit of perseverance. Cheers. I must say plainly
furious system is the mode in .
conditions in that that I should indeed despair of this task, were it not
various tenures, and under various
appears to be that that I think I see symptoms amongst the people of Ire-
country, The present modeecberge upon a large land both of a greater reliance upon their own energies,
of having a small rent -ent under their own exertions, and a greater willin
ag willingness to co-
estate. The landlord has a property
him, so that operate with us.—(Cheers.) 1 believe that they will
a middleman under
ithim, and that agent has
whom h dot of property courage this spirit amongst themselves-1 believe that
is impossible to say on
t n worthy of the will see what has been done in this
a ques io country and in her
rested.—(Cheers.) It is
consider how these neighbour Scotland, by industry by
attention of Parliament to consider
how it is possible never despairing of success—that
tenures may be simplified,
with the tenant and this spirit, not looking 1 they gill' go on in
to connect the proprietor.
which they are connected posala, and to Parliament fur enactments—(Cheers)—
in Ireland and Scotland. It is to the task immediately before them,
' that is to be attributed, among the many causes ! and set themselves down heartily and
strenuously
nexion instances of destitution ito perform that task,and
in Ireland, the frightful prove that there are means

Lord JOHN RUSSELL—I made a mistake when'-
said that rates were to be levied by the relief com-
mittees—the rates are to be levied by the board of
guardians, and they will have the power to levy any
additional rates they may require. The committees will
be empowered to receive them. and to this will be added
private subscriptions and donations from the Go-
vernment.

Mr. B. OSBORNE vt isbed to have from the Noble
Lord some explanation of his statement about Lord
Sligo and Mr. Moore refusing to pay the rates at
Castlebar.

Lord J. RUSSELL said the Hon. Member had mis-
apprehended his meaning. He (Lord John Russell)
stated that a meeting had been called at Castlebar, and
that Lord Sligo and Mr. Moore had proposed and se-
conded the resolutions to which he had alluded ; and
that in the Union of Castlebar there were arrears of
rents due, as he had stated ; but he did not say that
either the Marquis of Sligo or Mr. Moore were among
tbsse who were in arrears.—(Hear, hear.) In saying
that he did not mean to reflect on the Noble Lord or
the other gentleman referred to.—(Hear.)
Mr. S. O'BRIEN, who rose amidst considerable con-
fusion, said his object was to ask the Noble Lord the
course the Government intended to adopt in reference,
first, to making advances on railway works ? and,
second, whether her Majesty's Government, in their con-
sideration of the present condition of the people of Ireland,
had decided on bringing in a Tenants' Compensation
Bill, in order to provide for the compensation of tenants
in cases of removal?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that respect-
ing making advances for railways, that sub-
ject had been under consideration, and it was
thought unwise to do so generally on works
of that description. It was a subject into which the
Government was not prepared to go at present. Re-
garding tenants' compensation, a Bill had been pre-
pared, but it was not intended to be introduced into
that House at present, and would, in all probability,
originate in the other House.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord CLEMENTS was desirous Of knowing if any
arrangements had been made for the poor emigrants
who might arrive in the colonies —whether it was
their intention to appropriate any capital in the
colonies of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and the
Canadas, in order to encourage emigration to that
quarter?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the subject had come
under the consideration of his Noble Friend the Secre-
tary for the Colonies, and the Government was prepared,
if proprietors or companies in Canada were willing to
construct villages or build dwellings while railways were
in the course of construction, to make advances of money
to assist them.--(hear, hear.)
Lord CLEMENTS said his question had reference to
advances for the cultivation of the land in the colonies,
and not for the construction of railroads.
Mr. F. FRENCH said that just before the meeting of
the House an Hon. Friend of his connected with the
late Government had assured him, from information be
had received, the measures to be brought forward by her
Majesty's Government were likely to prove most
distasteful to the Irish Members, and most
particularly so to himself. It did not
appear to him desirable to go into details as to any part
of the measure proposed by the Noble Lord, tint he
could say that his first proposal was in accordance with
the Treasury minute of the Ist of December, with
reference to the employment of the people. The objec-
tionable portion of it appeared to him to be the inter-
ference of the Board of Works, in the employment of the
people. With regard to the proposition of out-door relief,
under the poor-law, such a course appeared to him to
be most desirable, and altogether the provisions of the
Noble Lord appeared to him to claim the utmost admir-
ation. He admired the distinction drawn by the Noble
Lord between the temporary measures for the relief of
Ireland, and those likely to become permanent ones—those
for the emergency of starvation, and those for
the improvement of the country. Ireland had
lately become involved in many serious diffi-
culties, and those difficulties appeared to him to
be increased by the measures adopted by the Right Hon.
Member for Tam worth, in tampering with the provision
trade, which %yes at all times a dangerous speculation.
He had created a feeling in the minds of the people
that it was the duty of the Government to feed them,
and that the Government had the power to
do it, and that feeling had given rise to
considerable discontent and dissatisfaction in the
distressed districts that the Government did not
perform impossibilities. That feeling had led to the
occurrence which had taken place in the county of
Galway, in which county, on the coroner's jury sitting
to inquire into the circumstances attending the death of
a woman who died of want, a verdict of wilful
murder was returned against Lord John Russel.
The second error which the Right Hon. Baronet's Go-
vernment committed was, the administering indiscrimi-
nate out-door relief—seconding the intervention of the
Board of Works, the principle of State interference in
matters purely private. That the Noble Lord at the head
of the Government clearly saw the dangers anddifficulties
of the position which the Right Hon. Baronet took,
was clearly manifested from his first Treasury minute,
from his speeches in that House, from his letter
to the Duke of Leinster, and many other evidences ;
but in the confusion incidental to the formation of a
new Government, the legacy left by the Right Hon.
Baronet, namely, the Poor Employment Bill, with
all its attendant evils, evils which had created
the greatest discontent between landlord and tenant,
from one end of Ireland to the other, became law.
The evil was in the very principle of the Act, for
he could bear his warmest testimony to the great
abilities of Mr. Jones and Captain Larkinn. The first
evil was in the diversion of the entire population from
the cultivation of the soil. According to the
statement of the Noble Lord, not less than
480,000 persons were now employed. The commerce
of the county was therefore greatly interfered with. In
the county which he had the honour to represent, a road
from Roscommon to Athlone, a distance of 15 miles,
hich usually took the mail an hour to traverse, now
took four and a half hours, and an application was made
to Government to grant an additional hour. In fact,
the Board of Works were designated throughout the
whole of Ireland as the wholesale destroyers of her
Majesty's highways. That expenditure of 180,0001. a
week was going on in the country,' when every eminent
agriculturalist who had studied the subject agreed
in the opinion that by a proper system of
drainage the produce of the soil might be in-
creased from 25 to 100 fold. Another effect of
this public employment was its demoralising in-
fluence upon the minds of the people, taking
from them all self.reliance, and encouraging them
to look to a system of out-door relief, and
fostering habits of laziness arid indolence at a period
when every exertion should be used to rouse their in-
dustrial energ. es. He was glad to hear that the
opinions of the Right Honourable Baronet the
Member for Tatavvorth had been somewhat
modified since the last session, and he recommended
that the army of 10,000 overseers should be disbanded,
and labour again caused to flow into its proper
channel. That was the expression of the general
feeling of the people of Ireland, and their voice had
been heard be the Government of the country. When
the Lord Lieutenant first issued that letter, known
throughout the country as " Labouchere's letter,"
which the Honourable Member for Limerick had
threatened to impeach, its object was to substitute
tute productive for unproductive works. and proposing a
division of the country into electoral districts, allowing
presentments to be made for private interests under the
Drainage Act. That letter was not acted upon,
because it was provided that the works should
be carried on under the Board of Work, thereby,
entailing an additional cost of cent. per,
evening
by anticipated that the measure proposed. thai,s,.
by the Noble Lord would confer rnatearri I
on Ireland. He agreed fully with that
,p tof the nNta:ibeles
countr), o Lord's address in which he said there ahs nwo,ecvaeursleamtoent
de-
spair of the future state.. of that
_Trighgt baeiTeas he had no doubt
tter state of things
able her present position
that after much acute sufft
prosperity of the
would ensue, and
decrees, acbtehe re-established. The
well country a
as
calamities, of nature generally,
caused a reaction, and often led to the best re-
sults in the human frame as well as in the
body politic : thus Ireland, the difficulty and
problem of statesmen, through the fearful ca-
lamity with which it had pleased Providence
to afflict her, had done that for that country
which neither King's nor statesmen had been able
to effect, as it had led to the adoption of
measures which would give Ireland a fair field, and
which would go far to promote her regeneration. In
after years they would have to look back upon these
measures, either as having promoted the prosperity, or
led to the utter ruin of Ireland.
Mr. BELLEW thought that indeed the importance of
this subject could not be exaggerated, and ths feelings of
the Irish Members cou'd not but have been gratified by the
arrangement which'the Noble Lord had proposed. He
rejoiced that the principle of rendering the Irish land-
lords responsible for the support of their
poor had for the first time been adopted in that
House that night ; and he thought that the Members for
England and Scotland would be satisfied with the arrange-
ment, as it extended the poor-laws from these countries,
to Ireland. Yet it should be remembered that the rate
levied under the poor-law in this country only remounted
to one 'sixth, or 2s. in the pound, whilst in Ireland it
amounted to one-fourth. The Irish landlord was
generally supposed to be an embarrassed
person. It was, therefore, stated that the