The Sun.
London, England, 1840-03-03 00:00:00

rnE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, MARCH 3, 1840.

admirable speech of the Hon. Member for Halifax, and
after the speech which had been made by his
Honourable Friend the Member for Whitby, he thought
he need not trouble the Housa at any great length.
But there was a subject which he would not allow, the first
opportunity be had of speaking, to pass by without advert-
ing to, and that was the assertion of the Noble Lord the
Member for Staffordshire (Lord Ingestrie), viz., that the
promotion of the navy was conducted in a profligate man-
lier. He would tell the Noble Lord that there was nothing
whatever to support him in such a declaration. He was
not then speaking of Admiral Fleming's appointment.
That was an appointment which did not belong solely to
the Admiralty. His Noble Friend at the head of the
Government had in another plac-, as he naturally would
do, taken upon himself the responsibility of that appoint-
ment ; but he ( Admiral Adam) would say that no officer
in the Queen's service had more ardently desired to be
employed than his Hon. and Gallant Friend Admiral
Fleming, and perhaps no man on the Admiralty's list bad
been more usefully employed—( Hear, hear)—and though
it had not been his good fortune to meet the enemies
of his country in the way others had done, yet he only
wanted the opportunity to distinguish himself, and he be-
lieved that no man was more capable of doing so. He
(Admiral Adam) defied the Noble Lord to show any in-
stance of profligate promotion. If the Noble Lord would
bring forward any case whatever which he considered to
be profligate, he would with pleasure and satisfaction meet
the first opportunity he had of doing so. He would tell.
the Noble Lord in the strongest language he was capable
of uttering that there had been no profligate promotion in
the navy by the present Admiralty. The Hon. and Gal-
lant Admiral here read a list of the promotion of mates in
the last year, and stated that no man, whether young or
old, had been promoted who had not deserved it. It had
been said there ought to be a promotion in order to clear
the Mates' List, and the Hon. Member for Whitby had
said that that was the only part of their naval administration
that he did not approve of. He thought it was not very
reasonable to talk of promotion when it was considered
what had taken place. On Ist January, 1838, there were
631 mates, and out of those there were promoted in that
year 102. That was the general promotion that took
place on the Queen's accession to the Throne. A promo-
tion took place early in the preceding year, when almost
as large a number were promoted. But everbody knew
that ever since Lord Melville made that most useful regu-
lation that only one officer should be promoted for every
three vacancies, it had been rigidly adhered to, excepting
the cases of particular services, where special promotions
were made. So that although in 1839 there were but 37
promotions, yet it should be considered that there had
been in the beginning of 1837, and in the middle of 1838,
considerable promotions. Therefore it could not be said
that there bad not been a considerable degree of promotion
in the time that his Noble Friend at the bead of the
Admiralty bad executed his office.--( Hear, hear.) He
thanked the House for the attention with which they had
listened to him, and he would sit down, declaring that the
oftener the Noble Lord brought forward charges against
the Admiralty of making improper promotions, the more
ready he would be of availing himself of the opportunity
of contradicting them.--( Cheers.)
Lord ING ESTRIE wished to make a few observations.

In the first place, he begged to state that he had not made
use of the expression which had been attributed to him by
the Hon. and Gallant Admiral.
Admiral ADAM—Twice over.

Lord INGESTRIE—I beg your pardon. I said the
patronage of the Admiralty had been made use of in a way
in no degree creditable to the Admiralty.
Admiral ADAM—Twice over.
Lord INGESTRIE—I think the Hon and Gallant
Admiral, on the other side of the House, is not over cour-
teous in the way he interrupts me.—( Hear, hear.) On a
former occasion he had stated he would not men-

Lion names, neither would he in the present case.—
( Hear, hear.) Several of the cases to which he alluded
were mentioned by his Right Hon. Friend the Member
for Pembroke ; but he had alluded more particularly to
the appointment to Greenwich Hospital, and with respect
to that appointment he was noways disposed to retract any
expression he made use of on that occasion. He did not
intend to say anything that was personal ; his accusations
were against the Admiralty, or, if the Gallant Admiral liked
it better, against their appointments. It might be true, and
he believed it was true. that Admiral Fleming had served
to the utmost of his ability, and that he had had a great
quantity of employment. Still that had been a matter of
favour, while other officers had been otcrlocked. How
often had he hoisted his flag? Why, he had hoisted his
flag three times since the peace ! He was appointed to
the command at Portsmouth last year, and now the vacancy
having occurred, he was appointed to Greenwich Hospital,
while those who had bled for their country had been over-
lm ked. Greenwich Hospital lied been always reserved as
a retirement for some officer who had distinguished him-
self in action against enemies, and also as a relief in cases
where a Gallant Officer might be straitened in his circum-
stances. A great deal had been said with respect to the
manning of ships, and he thought the Board of Admiralty
had, as far as he could understand, adopted a proper
course in that respect ; and, as he understood the Hon.
and Gallant Member for Sandwich (Sir T. Troubridge),
there had been a great increase in every ship in the ser-
vice.
With respect to what the Hon. Member for Halifax
had said about ships in former times taking a long
time to fit out, he would obeerve that his Hon. Friend
forgot that ships sometimes waited in Portsmouth Harbour
for ten days, for a spanker boom, or some insignificant
article. All those ships to which the Hon. Member
alluded would have gone to sea in probably half the time,
if they had been required. He should be glad to add some
information upon the subject of seamen educated in the
Exmouth. He thought it was prejudicial to our national
interests that we should educate men who might go
and cause that knowledge which they had received
under our auspices to bear against us.—( Hear, hear.)
Then again with respect to our naval architecture ; there
might be some degree of presumption in his putting him-
self so forward, but he felt it his duty to do so. Last year
he ventured to doubt whether the Gorgon was so good a
ship as she was represented to be. lie was then answered
by the Gallant Admiral that she was the best ship that ever
swam. Now, he would ask, whether it was ever intended
that she should carry guns upon her deck. He, for one,
always thought that if a ship were laid down for a parti-
cular purpose, and did not answer that purpose, he thought
it was a failure. By the bombastic circular that was sent
round it was stated that she was to carry a regiment of

soldiers with all th,.‘ir baggage. He would ask whether
she was not obliged to have her lower ports caulked up, and
whether the engineA intended for her had not been removed.
He trusted that he was wrong, but he had no reason to

doubt the gources from which he received his information.
If the Gorgon was so good build, why was it that the

. .
Cyclops,which was laid down immediately after had a length
12 or 14 feet greater ? From the returns tahich had been laid
on the table of the House last Session, he contended that
the Inconstant was a better ship than the Pique. Then
why, he would ask, should we have all Piques and no In-
constants? He wanted to see fair play, and no partisan-
ship whatever upon such an important subject. Naval ar-
chitecture was a dry subject of discussion in that House ;
but it was a most important subject to the country, and he
should like to see this country take an example from
France upon that subject. He should like to see a Board
of Science attached to the Admiralty, who would greatl,
assist that Board in its duty of shipbuilding. Sitting
there as a Member of Parliament, be had a perfect right
to complain of any appointment which he might think
wrong, and he could assure the Gallant Admiral that he
would not be deterred from doing his duty by either his
threats or his anger.
admiral ADAM had not the slightest intention of
offending the Noble Lord. If he was warm it was his
nature, and (with great warmth) the Noble Lord will ever
find me so when my friends are vilified.— (Laughter.)
He had never fur a moment attempted to stop the Noble
Lord from performing his duties, nor would he ever do
so. The Noble Lord asked whether the Gorgon was in-
tended to carry guns. Most certainly not when she
i was used as a steamer—when she was used as a battery,
and having ports there for ventilation, of course she was
1 supplied with guns. The next question was, being anxious
to try her in the heaviest seas, she was sent out to the
north coast of Spain, to be under the command of that
distinguished officer Lord John Hay, and his Gallant
Friend near him, in whose department that was, took the
opportunity of filling her with stores and provisions for
the ships on that station. She was, therefore, deeper
than ever she was intended to be, and cons - quently her
ports were caulked up. The surveyor reported that she
was not so fast a sailer as lie expected, but she was very
far from being a failure. So far from lighter engines she,
in fact, had heavier. If siie was laid down for engines of
220 horse power, she had, in fact, got engines of 300
horse power. The Cyclops being about to be laid down,
the eminent engineers who made her engin-s, the Messrs.
Seward, reported that she would carry engines of the same
size as the Gorgon if she had greater length hi, twelve
feet. That was the reason of the change in the length.
Lcrd INGESTRIE explained.
Sir THOMAS TRONN BRIDGE had much pleasure
in answering another question put by the Noble Lord. He
could assure him that every encouragement was given the
boys educated in the Exmouth. They were engaged in
the service for five years—they had extra pay, and every
inducement was held out to them for renewing their
engagement for another five years.
Sir JAMES DUKE believed that the present state of
the navy was much more efficient than at any time dur-
ing the late war.
Captain BOLDERO said the physician to Greenwich
Hospital had, on the 10th July last, retired from ill health.
He wished to know if any successor had been appointed,
and if not, on what grounds the situation had been kept
vacant. There were 2,700 invalid seamen in the Hos-
pital, 1,000 boys, 30 or 60 families of officers and nurses,
making altogether about 4,000 souls, and they were prin-
cipally of a class who required daily medical attendance.
He also wished to know how many votes they meant to
take to-night.—( A laugh.) The next vote was the pay
of the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman opposite, and of
course he should not object to that.—( Hear, and a laugh.)
After the vote and the pay of the men had been agreed to
he trusted they would adjourn until they re-
ceived the Report of the Naval and Military Corn.
mission.—( Hear, hear.) He understeod that Report
could be prepared after two or three times' meetir.g of the
Committee, and as it would contain several valuablesugges_
ansposed. The
tions, they ought to wait until it had been laid on the table.
Admiral ADAM said the preparation of the Report
thanwou the ldrequHiroen a.
andgreat dealGal
la Gallant
morn,Ge
Gentleman
and
upconsideration
Report would not recommend the reduction of the Esti_
states in any way, and therefore he could not see the ne-
cessity of waiting for it. With respect to the appointment
of a physician, the Gallant Officer was aware that that ap-
pointment had been for many years done away with in the
army, and if the Report should embody a recommendation
to do away with the same appointment in the navy, it
would be very awkward and inconvenient to make such
an appointment just on the eve of the Report being laid on
the table.— (Hear, hear.)
sup-
plied ycoe:
Mr. HUME wished to know what manufactures were
now carried on in the naval department ?
Mr. MOREntract°
Fc
eEp
tR
bRi s Ac
uLi
tL,
fi said,
bid ever
ee
rr
,y tchhi
oatmeal.
The vote was then agreed to. oncgolwatae and
The

• On the vote that 123,0961. be granted for defraying
the salaries, and other expenses of the Admiralty being
read,
Mr. HUME inquired if that included the whole of the
expenses of the Admiralty ?
Mr. M. O'FERRALL replied in the affirmative.
Sir GEORGE CLERK, said there appeared to be
a sum of 5001. set down for postages. Did that include
the charges of officers at the out-ports and dock-yards,
and the heavy postages of pursers"accounts, &c. ?
Mr. M, O'FER RA LL said it was intended to cover the
whole expenses in that vote. Some of the heavy packages
and parcels which were not required to be forwarded forth-
with would be sent round by ships to London.
Mr. GOUL BURN apprehended that that was con-
trary to law._( Hear, and a laugh.)
Mr. M. O' FE RRAL L merely referred to books and
matters of that sort.
Sir G. CLERK wished to know whether any instruc•
tions bad been sent to the ports, directing the clerks to
write upon half sheets of paper to save expense?
Mr. O'FERRAL L said when the new system was intro-
duced, every effort was made to reduce the weight, but
after the experiment bad been tried a few days the system
was altered. He would say, however, that the system of
expending a large quantity of paper in envelopes, &c.,
where there were only a few lines to be written, had been
done away with, and every proper measure adopted to econo-
mize in that department.
• Mr. HUME was extremely glad to bear the statement
of the Hon. Gentleman. If public departments only used
the same economy as private individuals in the
management of their affairs—using merely as much
paper as was wanted for the occasion—( A laugh)—the
saving would be very great. He would observe that the
Committee sitting up stairs had recommended a new sys-
tem of printing the public papers, by which a saving of 30
per cent. would be effected.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of 2,5001., expenses of registering mer-
chant seamen, being read,
Mr. A. CHAPMAN (who was almost inaudible) said
that for the last fourteen or fifteen years the returns showed
there were about 26,000 merchant ships, comprising
2,700,000 tons, and 170,000 seamen. He found, by the
last returns, the number was increased 5,000, whereas he
understood that in reality the variation of the last from
former years was very small.
Mr. HUME said he quite approved of what had fallen
from the Hon. Member, for the Act was provided to pre-
vent impressment ; but he was informed it was a complete
failure, and therefore wished to know why it was con-
tinued. He believed we derived this advantage from it,
that we knew the number of apprentices in the navy.
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said that the object of
establishing the Act on which the vote was moved for, was
to get rid of impressment. Whether these returns were
correct or not, he was not able to give an opinion.
Mr. HUME suggested, as a means of saving this vote,
that they should not give ships their clearance till they
had made an entry of the number of seamen ; which might
be done by a clerk of the Custom-house. He should ob-
ject to the vote without further information.
Lord PALMERSTON said that if it was thought ex-
pedient to repeal the Act, it had better be repealed.
Mr. HUME said he thought his proposition most im.
portant, because if they refused the vote they would bring
Government to repeal the Act, but if they granted it, they
should hear no more of the repeal.
Admiral ADAMS said that great benefit had accrued
to the marines of the country by merchant ships being
obliged to take apprentices. He hoped the Hon. Gentle-
man would not refuse the grant.
Mr. A. CHAPMAN.— No one was more anxious than
himself to pass the Apprentice Bill. He objected to the im-
perfect mode in which the register was taken ; as an instance
he would mention that when a mutiny occurred on board
the Camden, and 21 men were sent to Exeter gaol, and
the Captain wrote to the Officer to ascertain the former
character of the men, no such names were found upon the
roll. This showed how imperfectly the registry was con-
ducted. He would therefore state that next Session he
should move for the repeal of the Act.
Mr. M. O'FERRALL observed the men might have
been registered in wrong names.
Mr. A. WHITE said he thought, as the office did not
answer its purpose, the vote would be only a waste of
public money.
An HON. MEMBER observed that the Government ought
to promise to take the subject into consideration.
Mr. HUME wished to be understood, that if by any means
impressment could be avoided, lie was not aware of the
limits to which he would not go for such a purpose, but as this
Act was an entire failure he thought they ought not to de-
ceive themselves by thinking it was sufficient for this pur-
pose. Impressment would be required as much with the Act
as without it, and to one point he wished especially to call the
attention of the House, namely, that some means must be
devised by which impressment would be prevented, for he
would tell them that, in the state of the country, impress-
ment could not be carried on as before, and if money were
required to man the navy, money must be had, for they
must do as others did —pay their men. He therefore
hoped the Government would, before the Session was over,
state their views upon the subject, and bring in some
measure that would be more efficient than the present to
get rid of impressment.
Admiral ADAM said, until his friend had objected to
the vote this evening, the Admiralty never heard a word
against the Act.

- After a desultory conversation the vote was agreed to.
On the vote for 27,4331. for the Scientific Departtnei t
being read,
Lord E LIOT said he wished to call the attention of
the Committee to the subject of Mr. Snow Harris's con-
\doctor for lightning, which had been before a Committee
last Session, but whose Report was not yet printed. He
was therefore unacquainted with its contents, but he on
derstood that they recommended the adoption of the in-
-1 vention. This invention afforded an almost complete safe-
' guard against lightning. But the point to which he wished
to call the attention of the Committee was, from certain
information he had received, that ships bad been ordered to
fit out with Mr. Harris's conductors, but without communica-
tion with the inventor, which he thought was not a proper
couree to proceed in, and, if his information was correct.
that soma injustice was done to the inventor and the service,
because he was told they were not fitted out on the plan
last approved of by him. He hoped that on a matter so
essential to the interests of our navy no personal jealousy
would be allowed to operate.
Admiral A DAM assured the Noble Lord there was no
personal, jealousy at the Board of Admiralty on the sub-
ject. Perhaps part of the Noble Lord's statement might
be correct. Captain James Ross, who was employed in the
Arctic Expedition, bad asked to have his ship fitted
out with his conductors —( Hear.) He was in constant
communication with Mr. Harris ; he (Admiral Adam)
could not say Mr. Harris was told it was to be done, hut
as one of the persons who sat on that Committee, had
applied for it. He understood it was done with his
privity, and, according to the wish of Capt. Ross, the
Foudroyant was fitted out with the invention, the order for
which was given in the precise terms recommended by
the Committee. lie would take care Mr. Harris should
be communicated with.

Lord ELIOT said he thought it rather too much to
expect that a professional man should have gone to Chat-
ham to superintend the arrangements, without authority
trorn the Admiralty.

Mr. M. O'FEIiR ALL asked whether the question was
to pay a salary to this gentleman?
Lord ELIOT thought that a man who had spent much
time in perfecting such an invention as this deserved the
reward appointed to be given for such services. But, that
was not the object he had in view in mentioning the
subject.

Sir. WOOD thought it would be better to postpone
this discussion till the Report of the Committee was
printed, _ _ _

Lord ELIOT said he had been informed the Report
would not be printed until the Navy Estimates had been
voted.

Mr. HUME asked to whom the 1,000/. vote last year
for rewards had been given?
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said he was not preparedto
give information, but he would take an early opportunity
of doing so.
Mr. HUME said there was one vote which had been
passed, to which he wished to call the attention of the
Committee. It was that of 33,0001. for surveys. He
wished to know whether any reports were made by that
department, and what surveys were made? He thought
there ought to be an account laid before Parliament every
year, and if a report were made he should move that a
copy of it be laid before the House.

Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said that a report was laid
upon the table of the Admiralty every Monday morning.
Mr. HUME said, what be wished was an account once
a year for the information of the public, that they might
know how the money was employed. He wished to be in-
formed what surveys were made, and where they were sur-

veying.
Capt. PE CHE LL believed that after any survey had
been made the charts were always advertised as the fruits
of that survey. With respect to the grant of 1,0001. for
scientific rewards, he apprehended that was bestowed for
scientific discoveries which were deemed of importance and
benefit to the naval service. The Noble Lord opposite
had alluded to naval architecture, and great credit was due
to the Noble Lord for the interest he took in this subject,
and he thought that there ought to be rewards for improve-
ments in naval architecture. Mr. White and others had
devoted considerable attention to this subject, and had ex-
hibited plans of very superior vessels. Indeed, so pleased
had the Admiralty been with one of these vessels, the
Water Witch, that they had purchased her, and
she had proved herself a very superior vessel
She had been stationed on the coast of Africa, and not a
slaver had ever come within sight of her that had escaped
her. HP thought that this gentleman and Captain Sy-
mons, and other gentlemen who had made these improve-
ments,
were equally deserving consideration as Mr. Snow
Harris and his lightning.—( A laugh.)
Mr. MORE O'FERR AL L said, that among the re-
wards paid for scientific purposes were—
To Mr. Shuckburgb, for his Operator...... £B5

For Lightning Conductors ..................... 122
To Mr. Johns, for his 1nventi0n5............ 300
The total amount bestowed in rewards was 8651. 135. The
places where surveys were carrying on at present were on
the home station. At the mouth of the Thames, at North
Fleet, on the east and west coasts of Scotland, at the
Orkney Islands, in the Irish Channel, and at the mouth
of the Shannon. On the foreign stations, in the Meklite-
rannean, on the shores of Greece, at the mouth of the St.
Lawrence, on the west coast of America, and on the coast
of Australia.
Mr. HUME thought that the names of the persons re-
ceiving rewards ought to be made known, as it might hap-
pen that rewards might be bestowed on those who were
not deserving of them, and publicity would check abuse.
He did not mean to say that there had been any abuse, but
he thought that in the estimates of each year it should be
stated how the rewards voted in former years had been be-
stowed, and he should also wish that there should annually
be made a report of the number of surveying vessels, where
employed, and what progress they bad made during the
year.

Mr. A. CHAPMAN could bear testimony to the use-
fulness of the surveys, and to the great liberality of the
Admiralty in the diffusion of the charts,—(Cheers.)

Mr. HUME bad not meant the smallest reflection on
the officers engaged in that department ; his only object
was to make their labours more useful to the public. He
wished to make one remark on the electrical telegraph ;
he had himself inspected the apparatus, and be felt con•
vinced that the Government ought to avail themselves of
the invention. He should be glad to see the Government
undertake the subject, and establish a line from London to
Portsmouth for instance, which would secure them the
means of instantaneous communication by night and day,
and at a very little more expense than the semaphore.
Lord INGESTRIE wished to know whether the stu-
dents at the Naval College were instructed in the theory
and practice of the steam engine, as from the great and
increasing importance of steam navigation be deemed such
instruction necessary.
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said that it was now un-
der consideration to place at the disposal of the head of
the Naval College, a vessel with a small steam engine
for the purpose of giving the students instruction on that
subject.

Sir GEORGE CLERK wished for some information
as to the system pursued at the Naval College. Formerly,
instruction used to be given there to young gentle-
men betore they went to sea, who paid a sum for their in-
struction sufficient to pay the expenses of the establishment.
He now observed a sum of 1,4501. for those expenses. He
wished to know what branchesofeducation were taught in the
College ; for books he saw an amount of only 501. For-
merly a superior class of schoolmasters used to be sent on
board vessels for the instruction of midshipmen. The num-
ber now cnly amounted to 22—a number by far too small.
He wished to know whether there was any chance of the
naval department being able to provide a sufficient number
of those schoolmasters to give an effective education. He
also wished to know the number of mates now receiving
instruction in the Naval College, and if they contributed
anything towards its expenses?
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said that the SOL was for
arranging the library of the Head of the College. He was
away at the time, and therefore bad no opportunity of
learning from him the sum that would be required for
books. There were no students at the College of the
class alluded to by the Hon. Gentleman as contributing
towards its expenses. The salary of the Head was in lieu
of the sum of 51. a year formerly contributed by every gen-
tleman on board a line of battle ship for naval instruction.
With regard to the schoolmasters, none were employed on
board ships having naval instructors. In ships which had
not naval instructors, schoolmasters were employed as
heretofore.
Admiral ADAM said that none were eligible to the
Naval College but mates, and such as had passed their
examination for lieutenants. When they came to the
College they were instructed in the higher branches of the
mathematics, natural philosophy, nautical astronomy, and
mechanics. They had made considerable progress, and
took a great interest in their studies. Several officers
on half pay had joined the College, and he believed that
more would join them. The number of students at present
was about 20; they received instruction gratuitously.
The vote was then agreed to.
Mr. M. O'FERRALL moved that a sum not exceeding
122,236/. be granted for the salaries of officers on the
naval establishment at home.
Mr. BERNARD wished to draw the attention of the
Committee to the hardship inflicted on the inhabitants of
Deptford by the property belonging to the Crown being
exempted from local taxation ; by this means a burden,
amounting to 128/. a year for land tax, and 1,5001. a year
for poor rates was inflicted on the parish. He hoped the
Government would take the case into their consideration,
and allow a Bill to be brought in, compelling the Govern-
ment to pay their own land tax and poor-rates.
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said the Hon. Member
for Greenwich had brought forward the same case last
year, and his Hon. Friend the Member for Halifax told
him that the Board of Admiralty had no power in the
case. He admitted the sufferings of the people of Dept-
ford, and regretted it was not in his power to afford them
any relief. He would recommend his Hon. Friend to
bring the question before the House.
Mr. BARNARD thought the Admiralty had the power
if they chose to exert it ; he did not call that an answer,
but a put off.—( A laugh.) He would recommend the
Government to bring in a Bill for that purpose, as he
thought it right that where a great national object was to
be obtained,
.the Government, and not the locality, should
be at the expense.
Mr. M. O'FERRALL would refer the Hon. Gentle-
man to the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. BARNARD had obtained a sort of half promise
last year from the Hon. Member for Portsmouth, which
he hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would keep.—
( A laugh.)
Mr. W. AT T WOOD said he should scarcely have
ventured to characterise the answer of the Government as
his Hon. Colleague had done, although he fully agreed
with him that it was merely a put off. It was not right
for the Board of Admiralty, when they admitted the hard.
ship, to excuse it on the ground of usage. He hoped his
Hon, Colleague would act upon the hint which had beet,
thrown out, and bring forward some measure to remedy
the evil, when, he trusted, the Secretary to the Admiralty
would not shrink from the opioion he had just given. So
crying was the grievance, that he pledged himself to sub-
mit to the House some proposition to remedy it. It was
not merely a local question affecting local interests, but it
was one which merited the attention of the House. The
Government bad thought proper to possess themselves of
nil valuable property in Deptford, and to employ numerous
labourers there. They bad subsequently thought fit to
abandon their establishments, and the families of the
artisans heretofore employed by the Government became
dependent upon the inhabitants of the surrounding distric,s.
He thought that there was not a Member_of the House
who would not agree with him in saying that a gross in-
justice had been done to those districts. The grounds on
which it was inflicted was, that the property of the Crown
is exempt from taxation. But was that a principle which
should be continued? and was one part of the country to
be taxed for the benefit of the nation at large? It the
principle existed, it required to be remedied, and he would
himself submit it to the House, if he should find it neces-
sary, if it ought to be continued to be acted on. There
was another circumstance connected with the present esti-
mates to which he wished to call the attention of the House.
It was that part of the estimate which related to D, ptford
dock-yard. There was an annual sum voted for maintaining
that establishment. No work, however, either as regards
the building or the repairing of ships is done there.
That, then, was a certain sum voted for keeping a dock-
yard, which was never in operation. The inhabitants of
Deptford bad already complained of the existence of this
establishment—they had complained that the best part of
their town was reserved by the Government, without
being devoted to any useful purpose. The Government
had said in its own defence, that the works of the navy
can be done more economically elsewhere, but that the
time might come when it might be necessary to use
those yards also, and that it was thought advisable in
the meantime to keep up that establishment. He
did not, however, agree in this opinion, and if there
was a probability that it could ever be turned
to any advantage, he did not see why the establishment
should not be worked at present, and why the inhabitants
should be deprived of such an advantage. They had no
right to take from those inhabitants all the valuable parts
of the town, and thus deprive the artisans of the neigh-
bourhood of the employment they should otherwise receive
there. The Government had, he thought, but two courses
to pursue—let them either abandon the dock-yard alto-
gether. or if it should be too valuable to allow them to come
to such a determination, let them work it, and make an
active and useful establishment there. On some future oc-
casion he would have a better opportunity of laying the
facts of the case more clearly and definitely before the
House, and he would not neglect that opportunity.
Mr. C. WOOD wished to say a few words in confirma-
tion of the statement of his Right -Hon. Friend the Secretary
for the Admiralty. The principle was not peculiar to
the department of his Right Hon. Friend. It was a
general principle that the Government should not pay
such taxes as those that bad been referred to, and it was
impossible for the Admiralty alone to apply any remedy in
the case. It had been complained that the establishment
at Deptford was a useless one, and the Hon. Member for
Greenwich bad made a string of statements on that sub-
ject, which he (Mr. Wood) was surprised at. Within
the last two or three years the dockyard at Deptford had
been brought into use as a storcyard, and there was now a
sum of nearly 26,000/ expended every year there.
Mr. HUME said he bad formerly presented a petition
from the inhabitants of Deptford, complaining of the tax
that had been alluded to, and he certainly thought that
their case was a grievous one.

Mr. W. ATT WOOD did not wish to direct ary attack
against the Admiralty, but he thought that the inhabitants
of Deptford had not been fairly treated.
Admiral ADAM said that the Hon. Member for Green-
wich was mistaken in supposing that Deptford was not
now employed for useful purposes. All the foreign stores
had been formerly brought to Woolwich Dock-yard, but
now the sales of foreign supplies are made in Deptford,
and the stores that come in from contracts are all landed
there. Besides, Captain Huddard's rope-machinery is
manufactured there at present. Formerly Deptford was
a place where ships were built—it was now turned to a
different purpose, very much, he certainly thought, to the
benefit of the public service.
Mr. ATTWOOD did not deny that the naval sales bad
been transferred to Deptford, but he did not think that
any one would maintain that there was any proportion be_
tween the past and present employment given to artisans
there, or between the expenditure incurred there at pre-
sent and informer times.

Admiral ADAM said that at all events there were over
2,5001. more laid out there now than there were a few
years ago.
Mr. BARNARD said that the Government could
abolish, or at least mitigate the evil which the inhabitants
of Deptford complained of, and he did hope after the dis-
cussion which had taken place on the subject, that her
Majesty's Ministry would do away with so great an in-
justice.

The vote was then agreed to.
On the next vote being put, which was for a sum of
21,0101. for the salaries of officers and the contingent
expences of her Majesty's naval establishment abroad,
and for a sum of 526,723/. for the wages of artisans,
labourers, and others, employed in the naval establ is h-
ments at home.
Mr. BARNARD complained of the scanty payment
now given to ship artisans, and be wished that the pay of
those parties had been augmented since last year.
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said that the Hon. Mem-
ber for Greenwich had complained that the pay of ship-
wrights was at present exceedingly low. Now that pay
was fixed on arbitrary statements, but all the advantages
which shipwrights enjoyed should taken into account in
any estimation on the subject. Those artisans had the
advantage of being empl.yed during the whole of the year
—they had medical assistance gratis, and the advantage of
educating their children. Now when all those circum-
stances were taken into consideration, he thought that
though their pay was but 4s. a day, it was equivalent to the
7s. which they received in private dock-yards.
Mr. BARNARD did not still believe that shipwrights
were at present fairly treated in the Government dock-
yards.

_
Sir GEORGE GREY said that he knew from his own
experience great dissatisfaction existed in the Devonport

dockyards as well as elsewhere, owing to the circum-
stance of the artisans not being classified there. All work-
men at present received the same wages, though they
might not perform the same work. He trusted that the
representations which were made on the subject could be
attended to, and he wished that some means might be used
to allay the dissatisfaction which at present prevailed on
the matter.
Sir GEORGE CLERK said that he believed it was
mpossible to establish any system of classification in dock-
yards. Whenever any attempt of the kind had been made
it had been attended with great dissatisfaction. That
system had been recommended and tried by the members
of the Naval Commission, but it was soon after abandoned.
The only true way of getting an adequate return for the
wages of the workmen was to put them upon task-work.—
( Hear, hear.) It had been found necessary on the present
system greatly to increase the number of artificers. From
6,000, formerly considered sufficient, they had been in
creased to 7,500, and now 800 more were about to be
added. Yet be was certain that the same quantity of work
was not obtained from these men which could be got from
a much smaller number on task system —( Hear. )
Mr. WOLVERLY ATTWOOD said, in the last Ses-
sion his Hon. Colleague and himself had submitted to the
Hoase various statements showing that the rate of wages to
artificers in her Majesty's dock-yards vas too low in com-
parison with that of merchants' yards artificers. And such
appeared to be the general feeling of the House that the
rate of pay to the Queen's shipwrights should be increased,
that the then Chancellor of the Exchequer assured the
House that the question should receive the best considera-
tion of the Government. It had been shown that ship.
wrights in merchant yards would receive as much, working
only two-thirds of the year, as Queen's artificers working
all the year round. Now if the country wished for the
services of the best men she must pay the best price for
them.—( Hear, hear.) And the natural inference fr, m
the promise of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to " eon.
sider the subject" was, that something would be done.
—(Hear, hear.) If that were proved to be a far
too liberal and generous interpretation of the promise,
why then the House would know how to be deluded by
such declarations in future. Had it not been for indispo-
sition, he should have put on the books a notice of a motion
by way of amendment, on this vote, for an address to the
Crown to adopt some measure on the subject. He thought
no point of more vital importance with regard to our navy
than this—to secure for our navy the services of the most
skilful artificers in ship-building.—( Hear.)
Mr. C. WOOD said he did not know what the Hon.
Member meant by insinuating that a former pledge of the
Government on the subject had not been redeemed. The
assurance given was that the superannuation which had been
taletn from the shipwrights in 1832 or 1833 should be re-
stored to them, and so it was, within a month of the dis-
cussion on the subject, with an ex post facto operation,
too, to the Order in Council making the change.
—( Hear, hear.) Now, as to the present system of work-
ing, let it be remembered that it was not introduced by the
Government but by the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member
for Pembroke, who had inquired into all the rates of wages
in private and mercantile dock-yards, and fixed the rate
in the Queen's yards at the average of those wages, in-
cluding, certainly, the lost time, adding a bonus of 64. a
day to the best class, and of Is. a day to the leading men in
the Queen's yards, above the rate of the merchants' yards.
A similar investigation bad taken place in 1836, when a
similar conclusion had been arrived at. It should be re-
membered also that this system had been adopted to do
away with the jobbing system, about which certainly there
had been no small degree of jobbery—(Hear)—and consi-
derable abuses. The whole question, however, really came
to one of wages.—( Hear.) There had undoubtedly been
some complaints. But it was observable that the greatest
content prevailed in those dock-yards most remote from
political influences, and that the complaints were confined
to a few. Then as to the point, whether higher wages
should be given or not ? Now the practical test was,
whether there could be said to be any difficulty in getting
shipwrights for the Queen's yards ?—( Hear, bear.) Last
year a great deal had been said of men leaving the Queen's
yards, but it will come to nothing; only sixteen left
Chatham, their places were soon filled up ; nor did any
difficulty ever occur in getting workmen for the Queen's
yards. What reason then existed for increasing the pay ?
Mr. W. ATTWOOD said no doubt men could be
found to enter any yard ; but then the question was,
whether, at the present rate of wages, the best workmen
could be procured ?—( Hear.) With regard to classifies..
tion, he believed no system could generally be more ob-
noxicus to the artificers.

Mr. CORRIE was glad the number of artificers had
been increased in the Queen's yards, but he thought it
would be found necessary to increase them yet further.
The Hun. Member went on to insist that the present state
of our navy was altogether inefficient. He referred to
numerous returns, and evidence before Committees, ex-
tending over the period from 1772 to 1805 inclusive, to
show that it had, until recently, been the practice of the
Government to keep the navy not only in an efficient state
during peace, but to augment it. In 1772 the service
possessed 120 ships of the line, and at the commence-
ment of the American war there were 123 ships in
commission. He believed that the expense of a war of
even one year's duration would be found, in the present
state of the navy, to be much more than would have been
incurred in keeping the navy in an efficient state and fully
prepared for war, throughout the whole period of the peace.
The vete was then agreed to.
No. 9-28,2301., for wages of artificers and labourers in
dockyards abroad, was also agreed to ; as was also
No. 10-1,380,0001 for naval stores.
Upon the reading of No. 11-193,784/. for new works,
Mr. HODG ES objected that the item of 1,0001., for a
new_work to improve the navigation of the Medway,
would only effect a palliative of a very great evil.
Mr. MORE O'FE RRALL said that Rochester-bridge
was the great cause of the evil, The work to which the
1,000/. was to be applied was, he must acknowledge, only
an experiment. But the engineer, under whose superin-
s tendence it was to be carried on, entertained a strong hope
that it would confine the river to its proper channel, and
that it would save the country a very great expense.
After a few observations from Admiral ADAM and Mr.
U ME, the vote was agreed to.
A vote of 17,6691., for defraying the charge of medicine,
4:c., was agreed to without any discussion, as was
MAO/. for naval miscellaneous services.
On the vote for 758,6.501. to defray the expenses of the
packet contracts being put,
Mr. HUME wished to know what progress had been
made with respect to the contracts for the West India
Packets. He should be sorry to see the contract signed
without further information. Contracts had been entered
into the amount of two millions and a half for the purpose
of furnishieg these vessels, and he thought, therefore, that
the House, before it /panted so large a sum, ought to have
further information. If he had been rightly informed, the
contracts for the name works had been offered for half the
amount.

Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said that no offer had been
made so fair as the one they had adopted.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that if the Hon. Member for Kilkenny meant to call the
attention of the House to the subject, be ought to have
given notice to that effect.
Mr. HUME thought that the Government ought to
appoint a Committee, and take the evidence that indivi-
duals were prepared to give on the subject. The ques-
tion was, whether the House was to involve themselves in
contracts of this description, by which they would be
bound for so many years, while they were ignorant of the
whole circumstances of the case.
Mr. CHARLES WOOD stated that the subject to
which the Hon. Member for Kilkenny referred had
received the utmost consideration from the Go-
vernment during the past year. (Hear.) Every
source of information had been applied to, and the
bargains which had been entered into were extremely fair
and reasonable, and in that opinion be was confirmed by
several persons who were excellent authorities on the sub-
ject. Certainly the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, if he
wished to bring forward a motion to stop the contract, had
a right to do so ; but if a Committee was appointed, he
had no hesitation in saying it would be so much time
wasted, as every inquiry that possibly could be made had
taken place on the subject.
Mr. WARBURTON trusted that his Hon. Friend the
Member for Kilkenny would move for a Select Committee
on the subject, because be thought that the Government
ought not to have entered into any contracts without first
having the subject of them brought properly under con-
sideration.

Mr. HUNIE thought that some inquiry ought to take
plae, before the country was made responsibly for so many
year,.

SUPERIOR LONDON-MADE WATCHES.
—A. B. SAVORY and SONS, Watemakers, No. 9, Corn'
hill, London (opposite the Bank of England), submit for se-
lection a very large STOCK of Highly-finished London-made
WATCHES, the whole of which being manufactured under
their own inspection, on their own premises, they can afford t°
sell at least 25/. per cent. below the icsnal trade price for an !I:
tide of the same quality. A printed warranty is given vnt"
each Wi,tch.

PRICES MOUNTED IN SILVER CASES.
Fine Vertical Watches, jewelled, with double-
backed engine-turned cases, warranted £4 4
Patent detached Lever Watches, jewelled in four
holes, maintaining power, with seconds hands,
and double-backed cases, warranted 6 6
Either of the above in silver hunting cases, 10s. 6d. extra.
A large variety of second-hand Silver Watches, which hale
been carefully examined, and can be warranted at £2 egg"'

GOLD CASES, SIZE FOR LADIES.
Fine Vertical Watches, jewelled, in engine-turned
gold case., and gold dials, warrai.ked
Fine Vertical Watches, jewelled, with double-backed 0
engine-turned gold cases and gold dials, warranted 12 1•• a
Patent detached Lever Watches, jewelled in four
holes with double-backed gold cases and gold dials, 0
warranted
14 14
GOLD CASES, SIZE FOR GENTLEMEN.
Patent detached Lever Watches, jewelled in fuur
holes, seconds, and double-backed gold cases, war-
ranted
14 14 o
Patent detached Lever Watches, capped, jewelled in
s'x holes, seconds, double-backed gold eases and
enamel dials, warranted
17 17 •
..........
Patent detached Lever Watches, canoed, jewelled in
six holes, seconds, double-backed gold cases and
gold dials, warranted
21
Either o the Gentlemen's Watche• may be had in gold huili"
cases, for 31. 3s. each extra.
N.B. Second-hand Watches purchased in exchange.
....................

BIRTH S.
On the 29th ult., at Clopton House, Stratford-on-Avon( the
lady of Charles T. Warde, Esq., of a son and heir.
On the Ist inst., at Kentish-town, Mrs. William Rivington'
of a (laughter.
On the Ist inst., in Lower Brook-t,treet, Grosvenor-square,
he lady of Gerard Ralston, Esq., of a son. Of
On the Ist inst., in Upper Grusvenor-street, Lady Jai.',,•ff, '
a daughter.

A I? RIED.
On the 26th ult., k t St. Bride's Church, Liverpool, Charbleng
Campbell, Esq., banker, Glasgow, to Agnes, daughter rf
Thomson, Lsq , of Northfield, Dumfriesshire, North Britain. -