The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-03 00:00:00

PRIVILEGES OF TETE 110 USE.

Sir F. THESIGER said that he wished to call the at-
tention of the House to a subject of the utmost im-
portance, as connected with its privileges. It would be
in the recollection of the House that some time ago an
action was brought against the Sergeant-at-Arms, for
having, in obedience to a warrant of the Speaker, issued
by the authority of that House, arrested a Mr. Howard,
and brought him before the bar of that House to be
examined. On that action the Sergeant, by
leave of the Hi.use, pleaded a justification of
his act under its authority ; and issues at
law having been raised, an argument took,
place in the Court of Queen's Bench, and, after consi-
derable time having been taken by the Court to clk libe-
rate on its judgment, a majority was given against the
plea of justification. That judgment, itself, was not
more unfavourable to that House than the principle on
which it proceeded, and which, if it had been allowed
to be o ° nsidered as a settled and established law, would
have placed all their most important privilege.. at the
mercy of the courts of justice.--I(ChePfs.) The sub-
ject having been brought under the attention of the
House, a Select Committee was apponted for the purpose of
considering the best course to be ad opted for the vindication
of its privileges, and after a careful consideration of the
whole circumstances, and looking at the ground on
which the judgment proceeded, and the Committee being
extremely desirous not to recommend any-extreme mea-
sure in the assertioneoefid. their privileges, as long as any
of d
hope remaineddeciding it by a legal tribunal, a
report was presented to the Rouse
writ of error should be brought. On
roeci:
amcn-itievrliswd.inng
it that a
ma-
jority of that House acquiesced in that recommen,dation.
A writ of error was granted, and in the course of last
year the question was argued before the Court of Ex-

STN

-----
chequer Chamber, and ho had th '
inform the House that. this very day )
unaaita6u6l3. pic4Lounc%-ii a dc.ci.:aua r,vc

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Littr.7.Jelz -

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It Might he irai'.:,rtant notnextomajo
on which this import:lnt tip vision was given,
grounds on which the judgment was given rendered it
unnecessary. He hoped, however. he might be permitted,
that: the result of this inquiry confirmed and sanctioned
the report and recommendation of the Select Committee,
and he should therefore'move that the short-hand writer's
notes should be printed, and circulated amongst the
Members of that House.
POSTPONEMENT OF MOTIONS.
Mr. P. SCROPE said that he did not wish to inter-
pose between the debate of last
.itight the motion of
which he had giVen notice, namely—" That the lives of
the people of Ireland ought to he as valuahle in the eye
of the law as the lives of the people of England ; conse-
quently, it is expedient to extend to Ireland the main
principle of the English poor-law, namely, the right of
the destitute poor to relief, from a public provision, to
save them. from perishing." If other Hon. Members
were willing to postpone their notices he would at once
follow the example.
Mr. B. ESCOTT said he also did not wish to em-
barrass the Government, and he would not press the
House to a discussion on his motion.
LETTING OF LANDED PROPERTY IN
IRELAND.
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD raid that the reso-
lution
which he proposed, namely, " That it appears to
this House, from the reports of various Committees and
Commissions, that the system generally adopted in times
past in the letting and management of landed property in
Ireland, has been one of the main causes of the present
distressed state of that country, and the disordered state
of its social relations ; and that no measures can be
effectual in producing a demand for labour, or improving
the condition of the people, which shall not include such
an amendment of the laws of landlord and tenant as
shall give to the improving tenant In occupation a suffi-
cient permanency of tenure, or else establish the tenant's
right to claim by law Lull compensation for all bene..
fits created by the expenditure of . his labour
and capital on the premises in question," was
intimately associated with the question under de-
bate, and he accordingly felt some difficulty in yielding
to the Noble Lord.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that it was his intention
to bring in a Bill for the very same object as that pro-
posed by the lion. Gentleman at the very earliest possible
moment. On account of the pressure of business, the
Government were at the present moment unable to
give the question that attention which it demanded.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said that he would fix Thurs-
day next for the discussion of his motion.

Mr. ROEBUCK said that he felt very great difficulty
in giving up his motion; if he did so, he considered that
ha would have some claim upon the Noble Lord at a
future day for his motion, which was, that a Committee
of the whole House be appointed, for the purpose of
referring to it the Act 5 and 6 Vic., c. 35, with a view to
,xtend the operation of the said Act to Ireland.
FINANCIAL STATEMENT.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that as soon as the House
hail consented to the second reading of the Bills
before it, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would bring
forward the whole of the question as regards finance.
His Right Hon. Friend would make his financial state-
ment on an early day, and then it would be competent
for the Hon. Member to bring forward his resolution.

ABSENTEES—IRELAND.
Mr. H. GRATTAN said, that with regard to the
motion of which he had given notice—namely for a
return of the absentees from Ireland, stating their names
and annual incomes d, rived from property therein ;
sFeeifying the counties in which their estates are situate,
and distinguishing such as are temporarily or more than
six months absent from Ireland: that the guardians
of the poor law uniohs in Ireland do furnish
an account of the annual value of the property
of all absentees in their respective unions assessed
to the poor rate : that the Commissioners, under
the Act 5 and 6 Vic., c. 35, do furnish a❑ account of the
aggregate amount of all property in Ireland taxed under
;he provisions of that Act, anl other Acts continuing
the same: also, a return of the number of persons re-
siding in England, or temporarily absent there-
from, charged under the Act 5 and 6 Vic., c. 35,
and the Act for continuing the same, in respect
of profits and gains arising from any allowance
annuity, stipend, or trade in Ireland ; together with the
total amount of the duties levied in rCSI.*CL of such profits
and gain: that the governor and directors of the Bank
of Ireland do furnish au account of the amount of all
annuities, rtvideeds, and shares of annuities payable by
the said company out of the public revenues of the
United Kingdom to or to the use or benefit of any
persons not resideet in Ireland he was in the
same predicament as the Hollow able Men.ber for
Bath.—(clear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman said that
his measure was preliminary to others; now the return
which he (Mr. GrAttan) incved fOr was a corollary to
his (Mr. Roebuck's) motion.—(Laughter.) lie wished,
therefore, to know whether the Right lion. Gentleman,
the Secretary for Ireland, would have any objection to
grant the return?

Mr. LABOVeIIERE said, that if he were inclined to
grant the return, he did not know how to come at the
information.

Mr. IL GRATTAN—Tf,ere was no difficulty what-
ever in the matter. There was the list (pointing to a
paper in his hand), and he would be happy to furnish the
particulars, without asking for the pay or the posi-
tion of the Irish Secretary.
LETTER-CARRIERS.
Mr. GROGAN moved for a return showing the
amount of wages paid to the letter-carriers of class
No. 1 of this metrvolis, on the Ist day of July, 1846,
and also the average amount of all other emoluments
received by them respectively ; similar returns for the
letter-carriers of classes Nos. 2 and 3 ; returns showing
the amount of wages now paid to the letter-carriers in
each class, and any other compensation they bad in ad-
dition ; also similar returns for the letter-carriers of
Dublin, with the emoluments they had in addition to
their salary.—Agreed to.
On the order of the day being read for resuming the
adjourned debate on the
. _ _

- LABOURING POOR (IRELAND) BILL,
Mr. G. A. HAMILTON was desirous to express the
gratification he felt at the close of the speech of the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer
last night, where he evinced the sympathy he enter-
tained for the sufferings of the people of Ireland.
He really believed that it was impossible for any one to
realise to himself the extent of the misery which had
taken place in Ireland who had not had the opportunity
of observing it for himself. Why, in the part of Ireland
where he resided, within twenty miles of Dablfti, where
the poor were within the reach of markets, where every-
thing had been done which couid be done to mitigate
or to avert this dreadful ca!amity, he said that it was
most melancholy to observe the gradual approach of this
fearful visitation. It was most melancholy to observe
the gradual sinkirg of the smaller farmers from a state
of comfort to a state of poverty; the gradual disappear..
ance of his little luxuries, of his slender comforts the
disappearance of hes pig, of his poultry, of his articles of
household furniture—all indicative of the gradual and
certaiu approach of this visitation. Still more melan-
choly was it to observe even among the labour-
ing classes the approach of this calamity;
the - mournful countenances, the desponding
and downhearted appearance so unusual among the
peasantry of Ireland, all telling a tale of famine not
likely to be misunderstood. He knew enough of Ire-
land to know that it this state of things existed iu a part
of the country so favourably placed, they might
easily imagine what must be the state of
people in the more remote parts. There were two or
three points in the speech of the Right Honourable
Baronet opposite to which he felt it his
duty to refer. He imputed to the gentlemen
of Ireland a degree of supineness, because they had
not availed themselves of the provisions of an Act,
passed in the beginning of last session, by which money
might be provided for the improvement of estates ; and
also that they had not availed themselves suffickntly of
the provisions 'of anothsr Act passed at a later
period of the session, being au Act for the
better drainage of estates in Ireland. With regard to
the first, of these Acts, ,it was tried and found to be in-
opeiative. fie saw the Right Hon. Baronet, the late
Secretary for the Home Department, in his place, and
it might be in his remembrance that, in a conversation
between him, the Henintrahle Baronet the Member for
Derry, and hirns6ll (Mr. Hamilton), they informed
the Right Hen. Baronet that a particular clause in that
Act (the clause which made it impciative that they
should apply to the Court of Chancery) w.,111i stultify
it altdgether. The House hart already been informed
that the operation of the sec.nid Act, which ap-
plied to the dr tillage of estates, was rendered
inoperative by a de:ect in the third clause
The Right Honou:able Gentleman the Chancellor
of the Exchequer complained that the gentry o f Ireland
hitdm,adaendprwesitehnotimitezeitn previous sy under the
inquirye Labour-rate Actthe
htoo
freely .
urneiie terttainLiteto
ryn.
inquiry
on
es sithme s part
were mof t
the
called ,
e thee 6 truth tohf ahse, wthoerkAset
th
requiredat were onbe e
p
y, while the presentment
together except to meet an
emergency, and the cons. quence was
rate-
payersmake their the sr gentry,
and gentry had to present..
went under the most .unfavourable circumstances.
This appeared to constitute a very important-difference
between the Act passed at the commencement and at the
end of the session. He thought the Right Honour-
able Gentleman had dealt rather hardly with
the relief committees in Ireland. No doubt
many abuses existed. There might be those on the
lists who were not entitled to relief ; bet it should be re-
collected that the board consisted of clergymen and ma-
gistrates, and that the usual course was tor the clergy-
man who was supposed to be best acquainted
with the circumstances of the district—(Hear,
hear)—to represent any case of extreme distress.
How then could the committees take on themselves to
exclude persons thus recommended from relief? He
thought the discretion ale rwards given to the officers to
revise :the lists was extremely judicious. Having
made these few observations on the speech of the
Right Honourable Gentleman, he .was anxious
'to state that he had no di sire whatever to look
back upon what had passed within the last few
weeks in Ireland, or to speak unfavourably of the con-
duct of her Majesty's Government. He was aware of
the difficulties by which they were surrounded. Ile
thought, moreover, that the Lord-Lieutenant and
the rest of the Government were entitled
to the greatest praise for having taken upon
themselves to carry nut preductive works in-
stead of those that were in operation under the
Labour-rate Act. Considering the difficulties conse-
quent upon their duties, and the funds placed at their
di-pusal, he considered that the Board of Works were
also entitled to the thanks of the country for the efficient

.
manner in which they had discharged their duties. In ' resolutions showed that they were fully alive to the
other departments he thought there might be more amount of danger 'that existed in the country. The
vigour. He meant the Commissariat department ; but, landlords of Ireland were united, without reference to
after looking at the correspondence that had been political faction or creed, for the good of their country.
laid before the House, there had been a great They were united not to destroy but to preserve. It
desire to execute all that it was in their power was to prevent the horrors of social revolution that they
to do. He was bound, however, to say that the diffi- were united. Not to involve the country in anarchy
culties of Ireland were still before the House. He was and confusion, but to raise the condition of the people,
anxious that every just consideration should be and to save all classes—(he used the words of the reso-
given to the present great calamity—(Hear)— lution on which their union was formed)—to raise the
and to consider of the means to be taken to alleviate social condition of the people and to save all classes from
the distress of the people, and, as far as possible, the ruin with which they were at present menaced. He
to prevent a recurrence of such calamities in could assure his Hon. Friend that that union amongst
future. He was anxious to adduce a few the Irish gentlemen on this subject was but a faint re-
facts illustrative of some of the peculiarities flection of the unity of purpose and} harmony of
of the condition of Ireland which appeared feeling existing among all classes in Ireland on the pre-
to him to be very essential to a fair consideration of the sent occasion. This heavy visitation—this great calamity
whole question. It was not his intention to enter into this visitation of Providence had softened men's hearts,
any details, but he would confine himself to the broad and called forth holier and better impulses. It was de-
and striking features of the case. He first wished to lightful to see on the relief committees men whom early
take the case of the occupiers. They had heard a prejudices—whom strong prepossessions—and whom,
good deal on that subject lately. The Hon. and Learned perhaps, the influence of stern principles had hitherto
Member for Bath, in his speech last night, drew a fear- kept sundered from each other ; it was delightful to
ful picture of the state of the occupiers of Ireland. He to see them emulating each other in endeavouring to al-
(Mr. Hamilton) wished he could state that in his leviate the want of their fellow creatures.—(Cheers.)
opinion that picture was overdrawn. He had It was delightful to see prejudice gradually dissipating—
heard the Honourable and Learned Gentleman sug- those prepossessions gradually disappearing—and a foun-
gest certain means of remedying these evils. dation laid for friendship, and harmony, and good feel-
It was impossible that the Honourable and Learned ing, among the different classes of the community, which
Gentleman could have fully realised the enormous ex- he trusted would long survive the unhappy occasion
tent of destitution prevailing amongst that class in Ire- which had given rise to them. The Right Hon. Gentle-
land, and the number of those persons so affected. Evi- man the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the Right
dence was given before the Land Commission, of which Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary for Ireland, had, on a
he (Mr. Hamilton) was a Member—and that with previous occasion said, that co-operation among the
The census of 1841 gave some startling results on this Irish was essential fur the successful carrying out of any
subject. The census of 1841 had given to She House a measures which might be derived, or of any laws that
return of the number of farms above one acre. might be made by this Parliament for the improvement
There were 685,000 in round numbers, and of of the condition of Ireland. He could agree with senti-
these no less than 560,000, or nearly 80 per cent. ments so expressed, and he believed that co-operation,
were under 15 acres, and a considerable proportion of energy, and activity, among the people of Ireland them-
that total being under ten and five acres. If any selves ; and, above all, a kind co-operation on this
gentleman in England were asked what he would subject by parties who had kept too much
consider the position of a farmer having so small asunder, were essentially necessary for the proper
a quantity of land as fire, ten, or fifteen acres, of carrying out of any measure, however well contrived,
course the answer would be that it was impossible any by any Government in this country. On the part of the
man having so small a quantity of land could United Irishmen he thought he could tender their zea-
employ himself properly in the cultivation of it, and lous co operation, for they were anxious to support any
that he ought to be turned into an independent labourer, measure, let it come from what quarter it might, which
and put upon money wages. Yet here they had five they considered calculated to improve the social condi-
out of six farms in Ireland occupied by persons of that tion of that country. Me was sure, at all events, that
description, these occupiers being dependent entirely on all measures would be considered irrespective of any
the produce of these miserable portions of land for party consideration ; and he would say for himself, that
subsistence, and being occupied in the cultivation of this he most unfeignedly trusted to congratulate her Ma-
land, without the assistance of manufactures or other jesty's Government on any measure they might propcse,
means of sustaining themselves. The next means and which would be doubtless sanctioned by the Legis-
(a better means of judging of the real condition of lature. and which should be, in his opinion, calculated
the great body of the people in Ireland), was to be found to relieve the present distress, and contribute to promote
in the census. The Census Commissioners made a return the improvement of Ireland.—(Cheers,)
and classification of the houses of different descriptions Air. JOHN O'CONNELL said it was not his intention to
in the whole of Ireland, and they divided them into four have occupied the time of the House long during this debate,
simply classes. The fourth class was a mere hut, the walls and for this reason—that while they were delaying the pro-
floors being of mud, consisting of only one room, with no
window. The third elms was better than this, it was also greas of this and other measures the people of Ireland were
of mud, consisting of more rooms than one, and having Perishing from hunger.—( Hear, hear.) Even the utmost
wiudows. The other two were the firm houses, and the haste that the House could make in passing this measure would
houses of the gantry and clergy, and of the 4th class not save the lives of those who were at that period perishing.
there were no less than 1,075,000 in Ireland. (Cheers.) It was, therefore, incumbent on the House to
The Hon. Member then read a number of statistics from enable her Majesty's Ministers to carry into execution those
the late census of Ireland, as published, with the object measures which they had brought forward on their own re-
of showing how severely the famine must have been
sponsibility, which they, on the fullest consideration, believed
felt in Ireland. Ile stated that in the
would prevent the people from being swept from the land by
county of Mayo there were only 217 gentlemen's the calamity with which it had been visited, with the least
houses, while there we: e 63,483 of the third class.
Such was the state of Ireland with regard to the hold-
possible delay. During the debate two or three character-
ings of land; there WV-3 no labouring population as in istics had come strongly out, to which he proposed to devotes
England, paid by large capiteli .t farmers, but a popula few remarks. In the first place, he begged to bear testimony,
tics:, such es he lied described, with very small holding,.; and his thankful testimony, to the commiseration which
and there was not throughout the event of the cows • the House had evinced for the diatress:s of Ireland
—(Hear, hear)—to the great readiness evinced by
try mere than one per cent. of gentlemen lernong
Hon. Members on both sides of the House to adopt the
them. Wills regaid to the larallords, he begged to iib
strongest measures that might appear necessary to afford relief
serve that, in consequence of the system of ea.riaci•e to Ireland. The next characteristic was—he was sorry to say
which prevailed there, it was with the greatest thilictelts
—a t:egree of ignorance, on the part of the House, of the
that any improvement conic: be effected in the cenditem social condition of Ireland ; which, after having occupied a
05 the pt•opie. These who k Lee: Ireland were awttet- seat for fifteen years in that llouse, he was not prepared to
of those ditlieultiee. Leaded gentry, he had just stated, find. This ignorance pressed more strongly upon bins than
did not comprise more than one per cent. ot ever the conviction, which he had always,---t hat a Parliament
the population. Now that raised the question resident and sitting in a country was the only competent body
of e.bsenteeisna. Ile agr, e,l with the lion. Gentlemaii to take care of the interests of that country, and what was
who stated last night ihet some of theses who wire rib- beneficial to its inhabitants. Then attacks had been mate on
senteo proprietor. were aereng the best laseilords of Ire-
selfthe landlords of Irelaedth.. One gtentlemahhad
however,
him-
land; but they were the exceptions, not the rule,
ie. veryfrom P him ' nhea?lt 'i
very this
littler e
weight'c
tlit hi:liotesee "are'd"stnicl
He was bond to say that th • largest pro- less weight in Irelan-d. lie 3p,ke of the Honourable
prietors did astir duty wel to Oh ir team:try, but Memb.e. fur Bath (Mr. Roebuck) who seem, dto take pleasure
that comet not be said ot the smaller class 01 when almost every other Membt rin the House was anxious to
proprietors wt.o comprised the great bulk of the avoid every topic of an irritating nature, to banish all preju-
absentee landl tede. The large prs•oriettsre rent in their dices, and when nothine bat considerations of humaeity had
property an egoists who to aisees extent discharged the any ihtlaenee over them ; in making malignant attacks, is
duties of the proprastur hanselt ; but he was efraiti raising ill-feeling, and preventing a full and fair consideration
that Usti could Smut be said of the great me- of the important measures before the House. The Henouralde
jority of the sm slier elites of absentee lutel- Membsr kept up a series of incessant attacks upon the Catholic
lords. At any rate, t here was no orie who cunt(' priesthood, which at the present period WAS, of ail times, the
deny that absuateei ,:n was attended with the
mostiitijust, seeing that they wire sacrificing their lives in
g reatest attending
evils, and ha 1 the m ist injurious elle_tts on too contorts n t.ded n,ttioi
istvhienddiceastiiicitunt e and
any
more than
afflicted,anl
they heededbeyholwlie.svaetr: m
and cunditioa of the pc sple—(Hear, hear) —and lir! sba- tacks. The Honourable Member had also attacked the
cere!y believed test it contributed very mate- people of Ireland. lie said, " that they earns to the
really to aggress, etc the misery caused by the calamits, House in an abject cendition to beg." He (Mr. J. O'Con-
under wliteli the Irish people were at present labouring. nett) denied the assertion. They did not deserve such '
There was another evil t, hick was severely felt in an aspersion upon their character. 't he Hon. Member :or
Ireland, and that was the case of the absence of agents. the University of Oxford, hail justly spoken of the heroic fur-
There were a number of agents engaged in the man• titude of the people under their sufferings. And these were
agernent of estates, whe resided elsewhere, and who only the t
ip eeo target hoof
his
fobuer
asits,eerdsiboynatheTlloen.titl.eimkz.fobrerßLo.l
visited those estates oisce a year. Then with respect to aaliso attaced the landlords ()If Ireland,he was not there to vin-
income. A member last night had stated that
icate them, or to say that they had not done wrong, if they
the whole iecome of Ireland was about 3,000,0001 had, h:r.vever, done so, the House was much to blame for their
a year ; but he (Mr. Hamilton) had round een,luct in consequence of the course of Legislation
from the report of she etesee of the estates in Ireland Viet they had pursued, in putting temptations in the way
the ausoun: of incense assessed in Ireland was over of those who were unable to resist thern.—( Hear, hear.)
6,000,0001., a matter which was wall em thy of the eon Indeed there was no parallel to the distress which at present
sideration of the Rinse. lie 11.•und that out of the existed in Ireland. But considering the calamities which had
upon them, considering the short time that there has
property that was assessed in Ireland, not less than
bc4nnicto look out for proper measures of relief, he considered
702,000/ were udder the ellarese of the Cs of Chap-
that the landlords of Ireland eenerally acted their, part fully as
eery an..l the Court ef Exchequer, and that during Lilo
well as the poor had borne their sufferings.—(Hear, hear.) He
custody of this money, the arrears had increased front
was also bound to bear his testimeny, to that of the Hon.
300,4861. to upwar.le of 400,003/ , and that the Member for the University of Dublin, to that most
amount now actually held was upwards of 300,00 d/ delightful unanimity which has appeared in Ireland. They
This showed what we; the condition 01 a gre t had all agreed to forget their miserable differences ;
portion of the property in Ireland. Then there was arid he had been surprised and gratified beyond
another evil arising from the state of the law of mort- measure to see gentlemen whom had been sundered by party
gage, an alteration of which would enable unen• dissensions meting each other with the utmost cordiality, the
cumbered proprietors to get rid of their estates. only contest between them being who would test show their
In England, if a mortgage were f reclosed, it was enlist) to relieve the people. He was still further bound to
customary to sell that portion on which the mort- observe, and glad to remark, that between the clergymen of the
gage was imposed in order to satisfy the demand.
mdifferentitteeof dwehnrhiretLoands,t andhothueoruer
tow ebree
chairman,sey eral
there
ecom corn-
The practice in Ireland was very different; the practice ex-
isted the most cordial union of brotherhood, and the strongest
almost universally prevailed that when a proprietor efforts to outdo each other in acts of Christian charity. The
borrowed money, he borrowed it on a bond and union was amongst their gloom. and misery a gleam of light
judgment. This judgment (which was scarcely known from which he augured much good. He hoped that it would
in this country) overrode all portions of his property, be permanent, and that from this day forth they might date
extending over every township, and it was almost the prosperity of Ireland, and that they would no longer pre-
impossible to get lid of the money borrowed during sent the appear of a divided nation, but of one which
the operation of the judgment. Again, with re- would hot together and work together. He had been be-
ference to the existence of the class known trayed into a greater length than usual, but he wished to say
Ha
as middlemen, every body would feel that the
wasfew boundwords to
oposna the
at casurebeforteb
otth:beHn
Governmentse.
e
operation of this with the previous cause considered
nn not
committed a mistake in endeavouring to supply
had been prejudicial to the interests of Ireland. These food—he did not mean to supply food to a whole
were matters that involved the condition and prospects nation, but had the soup plan even been put
of every class. The Honourable and Learned into operation a far different refiult would have happened.
Gentleman stated the other night that every He was fully aware of the inconvenience, as well as the ex-
man in Ireland was out of his proper position. Now that pense which would attend Government interference, with
statement was, to a certain extent, true ; but he might regard to the supply of food, and also that markets would
ask whether the Legislature had anything to do if Government went into the market as a purchaser. He
had
with it ?—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) For himself; no hesitation, however, in saying that they ought to have held
he was a strong advocate for the maintenance out hopes to the merchant that hell wouldbot sNetain nto
loss
ss by the
would
of the union, but he could not conceal the truth from rapvepliehseehue brought. He
He thboeilii,yetdt
that if rod had been
his own mind, that the effect of that union had been to supplied in the first instance the labourers of the country
draw away the landed aristocracy from Ireland to would not have been withdrawn from their ordinary
this country, and that had been a main cause occupations to take employment upon the public works.
why the class had arisen which occupied a middle _...(Hear, hear.) He did not, however, imagine
position, a position which the lion. and Learned Gen- that any other steps could be taken last August than what
tleman characterised as one improper for them to fill. were taken by the Government, but he was of opinion that
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had, in very strong the suspension of the 4s. duty and the navigation-olawsd
great
language, expressed his opinion with regard to the cul- have been proposed sooner.—( Hear,
hweoaruld attend the esta-
pability of landlords in the management of their pro- .h?phes of thef great advantage
whichand he begged the House not to
parties. He was not prepared to deny that some land- lose
meat of soup kitchens,pestablishin these relief committees, for the
lords, in times gone by, had been guilty of great errors
in the management of their estates ; but within the last palemwerare dyin , not by thousands, but by hundreds of
theoousands. lie gdid not approve of their system of
twenty or thirty years a marked improvement had taken poor-laws, but under the present circumstances of the
place in the habits, opinion, and conduct of the landed country, he would not oppose the measure. The
gentry in that country. They were now animated with capital of the country and the property of the country
a spirit of foresight, with a desire to economise, and a would he destroyed, still he would no more opposed that wee-
desire to improve their estates had become prevalent sure than if he were on board a sinking ship he should oppose
among them during that period. If the remark of the the construction of a raft out of the planks of the ship. It was
Hon. and Learned Gentleman applied peculiarly to the necessary to adopt any measure to meet the present state of
existing state of things, he should like to know for what Ireland, and he readily grasped like a drowning man at the pro-
it was that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman considered posed measure, and cordially withdrew any opposition that he
, the landlords of Ireland so much to blame? The Hon. 'ould otherwise have been prepared to offer to the measure.
and Learned Gentleman deprecated the small holdings ofhertehwe as
ma
egaesnuerreasl coofrni:ileati.ntAolfaeeswtapst oLocvoemrpreehnetnsivenTehses
into which that country had been divided. Ile should great question of the repeal or the union was con-
like to kuow whether at was ler the clearing or the non- sidered, however it might be treated in the
clearing of estates that the landlot els had beets to blame? House, as the panacea for all the evils that affected
—(Hear, hear.) lbs had heard much of the the country. That subject would one day be brought most
evil to wlii..•ll the tlf ei ties es..,lc is, had :- is .!n I i ,t., powerfully under the consideration of the House. He begged,
Wises bosh ise,it,„,e, nits te1e0...! "ILI, ere,h th,„." „. , in i seteltteitiii, to tette his tribute of gretitude to the admirable
of the „Neitie;
~t,,,t, ~t thii,,,s, iii 1,, I, „,i, 1,,. ,1,„,,i,i ht, 1 9.,,,,linisti
,tl.-,..11 1,1 I
ii,Nle.,“!her f...7.,,ti1i,_,,,,t:!,,eiy,-..,iiatyl
tt,it.l),ll.iiii.
t," ,''' no,w, hi"' uttc", f,i" 1,:::1" il' I '1.41,1.'",'"' Is',P) '":iris ilsie. 1':,.1 te•Ziletlib'y the delivery' of *sit. hi:: perch, prevented tile'
it" 1"" the '''''''"" '". its l'"''''''''` '''"'t'''''' --"'"' 1-" I" "''" ' pss:iiiis, of die iiieaeire% introduced by the Governrio-nt. and
English portico mad,
irchu'd ''''''''' their ,!nn 15"1"55e't I hered that the further discit,ion of tlie measures would he
and Ilea. often lied tiitese 1:l rill ii. ;sleeted her? Wiesti I i i i ; s i ti ; it
atilikillCLeta .11 a „mu alit. .t.eti,...y spit it.
she ceased to be useful for their purposes, vast numbers Lord CASTLEREAGH would tender his most cordial
of blue books had been. laid upon the table of the house: thanks to the Noble Lord at the head of the Government for
teeming with suggestions and warnings upon the sub- the measures which lie had introduced, in order to meet the
jest of Ireland; and now they were re,sping the fd-ustsu l alarming state of the distress under which the people of Ire_
not attending to those warnings. With a egar to the land were suffering. He cordially approved of the measure to
sanction the proceedings which had taken place under the Trea-
measures of the Noble Lord, he (Mr. Hamilton) was
greatest
Minute. To the Lord Lieutenant of the country the
bound to state, that considerine that they were founded
ereatest praise was due fur his exertions to mitigate the exist-
on the principle of iiitroducing capital into Ireland, they
mg distress. He thought the general accusation against the
had his concurrence. The principal objection he had Irish landlords was entirely unf,unded. The House ought to
was to the proposed out-door relief to able-bodied know who those landlards were who were alluded to. There
labourers, as he apprehended many serious evils would was one point in the Government measures which did not seem
arise limn it, unless great care was taken in its adininia• to give so much satisfaction to the House as some other parts
'ration.
night by the
The explanation which had been given lust of the scheme, and one or two of which he was sorry to hear
the Exchequertiiigadh, lion. Gentlemart the Chancellor ofL the Chancellor of the Exchequer say that he did not
strong objection he howTser, done much to remove th., entertain very sanguine expectations (he alluded to the
previously enter
have liked that the
a .qualified
ineasu _wined. Ile would grant of a million of money for the reclamation of the waste
ponied by rca had been =cote- lands). lie thought the measure highly desirable. With re-
, 11,
country t,)ste m of emigration, so as to
enable parties in tt • .
whe hid Ir:enc.'s in Canudr spec' to the absentee landlords, he would only say that he
would be the first person to oppose any scheme which proposed
and America, 'out whe had not. f to levy a tax upon that elaa..—( Hear, hear.) The employ-
sent to these friends.
on the House the fact that the imapstrucaosP•eriensesnttooolstlrroetliagisyd sy
lie couldnot-I'l.'ls to go out, to 1,0 men' of the people tip9tl ptiblic works had been attended with
seriesus results, and he thought that a just system of out-
ret,isi, but by a series
was to be effected, not by great me door relief to the Ale- bodied paupers was desirable.
of .small nr-a,ures. He believed The Hors. CECIL LAWLESS, as the representa'ive of
might be small one of the largest and roost important constituencies, bsgged to
measures, however high-soundtrig
great measures, were the real paulles. fu • toe • say, rsotwithstanding this was his first essay to overcome the
evils of Ireland. Ile airy much approved I oft" timidityw of addressing the House, that all the measures which
emorniaaien of legal men of both countriee to consider wore
nproosvp(reoltoasteide,aissto however enr,
tgoodmonth;
theytoo
lmightate blerei ni a
ut themselves,
e hadn tse
uv,,,esw,
jw:v far this law of Icel mil might. be assimilated to that arrived at a crisis, and she must either be swept from her
of Eleslantl. lii was glad to lit ar fruits the Chanc,llor
of
iroetTnLnt,tier self, and with her rise or fall this couritts was 11103 t
p'ac'e in the scale ol nations, or become great, glorious, anal
knowledge
ofH e.ga abstractve
of the Exchseitter la.-:t night, that it coos the intention
(level tee ell tte 01.. loan, t,, snal 11t?l-eel's, which fie credit f;.,1: ab"" "P.
ourus-yE:onglsiksh in their
• • Iro !ell,•te the 1 here a• , •'Tenni a'tiitnms ,b ebr, sit'')lra ed Bethimt fnot
l
cot:side rid 1.:, -,; z' ,:(-' u 1 trt-'( ' , , . labourers. • teine his views were aiplicable to the existing state of Ireland;
r :•e to wiaa;•ts Le 'visited to advert. they were
was one; one °:;-'''- 1`.)1 . . •, I alluded to a Inc•et- by that feeTt°n3r,tcharacter, and not dictated
The Hon. Mernba•it lor -M,..,issi,:se Las .
la. iy for the suffering of Ireland which
jag of the landlords of Inc— . , .
• I, tail its Dub :iii, whose object, they should be'.
t l'• 1 -ms,dvcs as
inc...l .or t li. c
ttinEtGheOßY was not one of those '
it was stated, was to scenro as it
science of poli•ic I e p, rsons who were so
~fistress of the I) pi
.11
possible, notwiths,amleig tiesthe Government had acted unwiselya in as not to see that
' '. . . - o'srs so to the resolution
which they had given in abiditg by the pledge'
had only to refer the lion. t_ss la . .... - eo 'e„ —e wri‘apirt.o GREGORY
leave it to the
c wouldinterfere with the operations of trade,
if ln" pa:tsed at tliat meeting, and ale
.i.ci,, r
I.
ev
time when
the
e. f ever there was a
strict maximsof
candour of the Hon. .11s:Inhir to eta)' w. 5...
,h _
were • ,,,,tttno- tiil. thew • vide, it was when flistress was so prevalent over the whole
were actuated solely by a e.es.ts o. „ ,
~, .
0 of Ireland. They had by this conduct given the greateste
could for themselves. Ile would state, in reply
rretnent to the merchants and speculators in Ireland.
the llonouittb:e Member for o.lfori_i, that thtse enceurs „ .

He heard with great pleasure the speech of the Noble Lord
the Member for Lynn, and that of the other Noble Lord, who
headed that party in the other House, but he did Not agree
with his (Lord George Bentinck's) sentiments with regard
to the speculations. Lie agreed with him, however, that they
should not allow the people of Ireland to starve. He regretted
he was not in the House the other night, when the Chancellor
of the Exchequer said that the depots in the western part of
Ireland were opened to meet the wants of the people. The
Hon. Member for Donegal, he was glad to see, bad denied
that statement, and he himself, though living within seven-
teen miles of Galway, could say, that until Thursday last, not
a single pound of provisions was given out from the
stores in that locality.—(Hear, hear.) In proof of
this the Honourable Gentleman read a letter from Galway,
to the effect that the depots had not yet been opened, and that
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made a misstatement on
that subject. When the people were dying, and when it was
found that they were being demoralised by the means which
the Government had carried out, then it was proposed to make
the changes which were now contemplated. He could make
every allowance for the difficulties of Government, but far-
seeing and sagacious statesmen would have adopted a very
different course. The great evil of the labour-rate Act was its
diversion of labour from its ordinary channels, and of holding
out the prospect that the produce of 1848 would be inferior to
that of 1847. The Honourable Member, after reading the
_ _

prophecies of Lord Monteagle and the Duke of Grafton,
with regard to the Labour-rate Act, said that these prophecies
were carried out, and thought the Government pretended to
adhere to the principles of political economy. In his opinion,
their proceedings showed a departure from them, which he
could not reconcile with their professions. Why, he would
ask, did not they propose the contemplated measures sooner,
when their advantage would have had much more efficiency ?
Before he sat down, be gave the Noble Lord credit for good
intentions, but he thought that he should have brought for-
ward some measure for carrying out a system of railways.
But as his Noble Friend the Member for Lynn intended to
bring in a measure on this subject, he would not allude to it
further at present. He was somewhat surprised,
also, that the Noble Lord did not propose to
establish agricultural schools. A measure of this kind would
produce incalculable good, and, instead of advancing one
million to reclaim the waste lands, it would be expended on
the establishment of these schools—the benefit to the people of
Ireland would be much greater. The great principle which
every Legislature should adopt, with regard to Ireland, should
be to lessen the amount of responsibility with regard to
the measures ; and he did not think the measures of the Noble
Lord sufficiently stringent to Ilarry out that principle.
He would not allude then to the poor-law, but with regard to
emigration he had no very sanguine hopes of the success of that
plan of the Noble Lord. Before he sat down he begged to say
one word for the position of the landlords of Ireland. 'the re-
sponsibility of all the social evils of Ireland had been cast upon
the landlords, and upon whom the slightest punishment that
should be inflicted was confiscation was contended. Atter all,
the same imputation might be cast on the landlords of Scotland.
What was it that prevented the poplation of this country
from being dependant upon potatoes, and enduring the same
calamity as that which afflicted Ireland; but the existence of
manufactories, as well the children as the parents of production.
The early birth of manufactures had been early crushed in
Ireland. Let them regard the north of Ireland. At &est the
evils of Ireland were ascribed to the idleness of the lower
classes, then to the injurious influence of the middlemen, and
lastly it was thrown upon the landlords. It should, however,
be recollected that the landlords of Ireland were, under the
pressure of circumstances, that could not affect the landlords of
this country, and from which he trusted they would be ever
exempted. The true means of elevating the people of Ireland,
would be to give to every man ia that country an outlet for his
exertion and fair protection for the same.
Sir H. W. BARRON was glad to see such Gentlemen as
the Hon. Member who last addressed the House come forward
and express himself in the way he had done. He wai a Gen-
tleman with whom he should feel no hesitation to act, and
he was glad to see that the feuds which existed

between parties in Ireland were fast dying away.
It was also gratifying to see that the Government of
this country was acting upon a different principle to
that upon which they had too long acted, and that they bad
abandoned altogether the principle of " divide et inipera."
It had been asserted by that Hon. Gentleman that
England paid 12,000,000/. of taxation more in proportion than
Ireland. Now a more fallacious statement was never uttered
in that House. He took the trouble of examining the income
and expenditure of the United Kingdom, and he found that out
of 51,000,000/. Ireland bore a proportion of 44,000,000,
leaving only one half of the proportion stated by the
Hon. Member. Now, with respect to the amount of taxation
in Ireland, not more hen three million pounds was spent in
Ireland. With respect to what had been said about loans to
Ireland, namely, that they had never been repaid ; now, a
more mendacious assertion than that had never been made.
fie need only refer t o the tables and documents
wiih which lion. Gentlemen were well acquainted, to prove
the utter mistake of this assertion. It had, indeed, been
asserted that loans had been made to the clergy,
which had never been repaid, but he would beg
to remind lion. Gentlemen that these loans were not made'at
the request of the Irish people, but merely to carry out the
vies and purposes of the Government of the day. There
never had been a loan paid to Ireland that had not been repaid
with usurious interest. Here, when money was lent to public
companies or private individuals, the rate of interest charged
was 3 per cent., while that charged in Ireland was 5 per cent.
Ilew, then, was the statement of the Hon. Member for Bath
sustained in the assertion he made in the House the other
night, that there was a continual drain upon the people of
England for the support of the people of Ireland ?
In the regn of George you legislated, and made the Irish
Parliament to meet in ingland. Was there ever such a
mockery of legislation as this? They were now suffering the
results of the tyranny of an English Parliament legislating for
frets ; and it was not until the American war reduced them
to the lowest extremity that any alteration had been made.
He would grant, that within the last thirty or forty years a
wiser policy had been pursued. In the words of the Hon.
Member for Bath, they had reduced the Irish people to the
lowest state of degradation, and on them be the shame of their
fault. They talked of Irish ignorance—who made them igno-
rant? Why, had they nut enacted that it should be a felony
for any Roman Catholic to keep a sabool in Ireland? and on
them be the shame of the results. They had made the people
what they were, and was it astonishing that they saw the bitter
fruits rising around them. They had made the Irish people
what they were, and this was the reason why the power of.
Sax in and English legislation was hateful to Ireland. lie re-
gre•ted this, for the English people were a great, a generous,
and a charitable people. There was another evil. It was
made a charge against the people of Ireland that the gifts of
the English Parliament had born misapplied, and that the money
which 'had been sent over for the public works had been mis-
applied for the purchase of fire-arms ; and representations had
been made to him as a magistrate, that fire-arms had been pur-
chased for purposes of violence. But what was the case ? Why,
on inquiry, he found that not a single firelock had been pur-
chased but for the sake of defence, and that the only
purchases had been made far the defence of pro-
perty ; and at a meeting held at Carberry, where
this subject was fully considered, a resolution was come
to, in which he most cordially concurred, that not a single
stand of arms had been purchased in the county of Cork, and
especially in the neighbourhood of Skibbereen, except for the
purpose which he had just stated. It was found that only
fifteen guns and two pistols had been sold in that neighbour-
hood. He was himself the chairman of two relief committees
in his own county, and be deeply regretted that statements had
bean made by many Hon. Members of that House of the
characters of the Irish people, for be could bear witness that
no people could have borne this dreadful visitation of Provi-
dence better than the Irish people.—( Hear.) Great complaints
had been made of the money appropriated by this country for
the relief of the distress in Ireland. Why, in the existence of
such a calamity as this, Ras no relief to be granted ? What did
they do in the case of an insignificant colony of this country—
the case of Quebec, when an awful calamity befel that city?
They had at once granted 20,0001. to the inhabitants of Quebec,
and when a still more distressing calamity befel a more insig-
nificant colony—he alluded to the conflagration of the city of
St. John's, Newfoundland—they had granted 30,0004 without
hesitation. Was it too much then to grant 4,000,000/. or
5,000 000/. for the relief of the distress of Ireland, where up-
wards of two millions of people wero suffering the extremity
of destitution. In such a case es this they ought to consider
Cork as Bristol, and Waterford as York. They did not come
to that House for charity but for that relief to which the Irish
people were fully entitled. Then, as regarded the alteration
of the law of real property and the tenure of land, he quite
agreed with the suggestions that had heen put forward. With
regard to the compensation to tenants for the improvement
which they had made on their holdings, and
he was very glad that the Government bad taken
this subject into their consideration, for he believed that
the tenants 'fete fully entitled to it. Then, with respect to
the project for the reclamation of waste lands, he differed with
the Hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. B. Osborne), for he
believed a wiser or a more prudent course could not have been
adopted. He believed that the money thus expended would
not only be useful in the employment of the peasantry, but
also in the attaining a 'permanent benefit for Ireland. Then,
as respected the adoption of a poor-law for that country, he
believed that it would be one of the greatest benefits for that
country. Ten years ago, he believed he bad stood nearly alone
in the advocating of this measure ; but late experience hail
shown the benefits that were likely to arise from its adoption,
and he was rejoiced to find that the Ministry had made it a
part of their system for the improvement of Ireland.
He warned the Government that unless they compelled every
landlord to . upport the poor on his own property the poor-law
would produce enormous mischief instead of good, and they
would be doing a great injustice upon a large portion of the
landed interests of Ireland. There was scarcely an estate, in
his own knowledge, that could not be properly improved by
the use of a little increased energy and exertion, while in his
own neighbourhood there was not an estate which
could not give employment. There was no subject of
t,u'rw sisal
would nut 1.r,.e
fir ri=hod to utkaiinhgre:ei.:l;:tilart_nbiztrn.t his and be trusted Government
at
RI
-1;T: le'rreerpawri leaw:ealyiotsn'te' I I Ise'lrfigiejef.ne trustedort ien;o o
In
:d
heweinslilainityoTii7tthiits'netmoertglic ncgye,nearnadi rhujek. nelwbtriopen'ilopil.ee
legitimate way of doing so than by assisting great capitalists
who had embarked large sums of money in the railways of Ire-
land.—( Hear, hear.) He could not sit down without offer-
ing his heartfelt thanks to the charitable and humane people
of England, who had so liberally come for ward to
assist Ireland in her present difficulties. Such acts
as these would do more to conciliate the feelings
of the people of Ireland towards this country, than any acts
of that or the other House of Parliament. He, therefore, on
the part of himself and his constituents, most cordially thanked
the people of this country for the high and charitable motives
which had induced them to come forward iu the present emer-
gency and assist his unfortunate suffering country.—( Hear.)
Mr. LEFROY said, the Honourable Gentleman who
had just sat down, had introduced topics which at the
proper time, he should be quite ready to discuss ; but he
must be permitted to say, that they should, on that
occasion, confine themselves to the measures which had
been prepared for alleviating the distress which prevailed.
The Honourable Member who proposed that the Irish
poor-law should have precedence of all other measures,
must be ignorant of the extent of the sufferings of the Irish
people, or he could not be so cruel as to attempt to delay
mea-urns that were prepared for alleviating them; while the
the
country
utem. . lie cared not whether the
i t
Hon. Member for Montrose hadouugrghtedtobea
nothingsved thet
in favour
othisdelay,
maintaining except a sisal
L r d
Lie
office were continued or not, but this he knew, that no Lord.
Lieutenant more deserved or commanded the confidence and
esteem of the Irish people than the distinguished nobleman
GWithnoreensipaenc t oe ti‘lre
mobbseerrvfao-r
twni
olal
not
is, at present
ft, rthheosee Hon.
ad
had n
nt tedhr ee
dLo
eirsen.elPirotest against every measure
Government had proposed fur alleviating the distress,
it appeared to him that the Honourable and Learned
Member's propositions were
very bexaceegdeinntglel;
man entertaining republican principles,
uobee ming a gentleman who was a member of the British
becoming m
buting
make
1 ed to
at
Senate.—( Hear, hear.) With regard to the measures them-
selves, he certainly did hope that they were calcoan important change in the condition' of the people of Ireland.
In Committee he had no doubt many amendments
would be
proposed, and lie trusted Government would take
care to give them a favourable consideration. He
was a decided opponent to Arms Acts and Coercion
Bills, but he must be allowed to express a hope that measures
would be taken to protect the hard-working, industrious la-
bourer against the ruffian, who would commit assassination
upon him, out of revenge for his honestly and faithfully dis-