The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-02 00:00:00

SUN, LONDON, T

IT

to the army and navy, and the wholt, amount, together
with the sev-n tui:lions already mentioneti, would amount
to ten millions. These were most extraordinary cart-
billies on the part of a country in a state of starvation—
a country that could send from its shores this quantity
of food. He trusted that het Majesty's Government and
the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland would take
means to ascertain what had become of, and
into whose pockets these ten millions had gone,
before they called on the House to vote away this large
sum of money, taken from the hard earnings and labour
of the people of this country. He was aware that out of
98.982 people in the workhouses in Ireland, on the 2d of
January in this year, 18,988 were able bodied persons,
and he would ask the House, were such grants to
he made to k.ep people who were capable of labour?
He had doubts, too, whether the law could be carried
out while a distinguished member of the Government
(the Marquis of Lansdowne) bud stated that it was
almost impossible to carry into effect out-door relief ;
but still there were classes of pers,ns for whom some-
thing ought to he dune to secure there relief, such as the
aged, sick, and infirm. After such a declaration
it was highly important that this measure should be
s ttled first. The Bill did not contain provision fur en-
forcing its clauses, and he thought this detect ought to
be remedied. A ca:e occurred only the other day at
the Castlebar union, which fully proved this. The
guardians assembled to consider the bankrupt con-
dition of that union, and Mr. Otway, the chairman, pro-
posed that GOO paupers should be received—the number
for which the house had been erected. Thirteen voted

against the proposition, and but three in its support.
Mr. Otway then proposed to the board an arrangement
by which the 106 paupers in the house—less than the
third part for which it was erected—should be provided
for, but that arrangement was not agreed to, be-
bause the collector stated that he would not
be able to collect the rate without the aid of the mili-

tary power. Now, the country must be in a
very dreadful state when such means were necessary.
It appeared, however, that rents could be collected
without any difficulty. In the Conciliation Hall

a Mr. F. Riley, a solicitor of the county of Mayo, in

.. _ .
speaking about the collection of rents, stated that
" amidst the gieral destruction of the crops in that
district the landlords were enforcing the payment
of their rents." At the last sessions there were no less

,han sixteen Bilis fe.-)r the recovery of rent.
[n point of fact, Lord Devon's Commission proved his

argument. Workhouses to the number of ninety-nine
thousand two hundred had been built with borrowed
money. The Exchequer advanced one million and forty
thousand pounds.
An HoN. MEMBER—It will be repaid.
Mr. WILLIANIS was exceedingly glad to hear it,
but it would be the first public money lent to Ireland
which would be so.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.") The
Noble Lord had quoted the statement of Sir
Thomas More the other evening, respecting the condi-
tion of the people of this country upwards of 300 years
ago. But what was the cause of the great change
for the worse which then took place? It arose froni a
change of landlord:4 the property ' being taken
from the monasteries and religious institutions,
hich had maintained the poor, and given to
the parasites and favourites of the _ Court.

Let them in roduce a proper poor-law into Ireland, so

as to give proper security to lice and property. Let
them pursue the same course that was pursued
when the 43d of Elizabeth was passed. Before
the passing of that Act, executions and other

punishment for offences against life and pro-
perty were prevalent to an enormous extent, but
on its introduction. These offences at once diminished.

Let the same course be pursued towards Ireland,
where there were at present existing a million of
people who only received 2s to 2s. 6d. per week %sages.
Seeing w here, in this country, the condition of Ireland
was the subject of conversation, and the cause of all their
wretchedness and suffering was to be traced to their he.
longing to a particular:place. For himself, however, he did
not attribute the distress to this cause, because in Canada
and America there were large quantities of Irishmen
competing and suecessrully too with Scotchmen, Eng-
lishmen, and in fact with persons who had emigrated
from the most distingui- hed and industrious nations of
the earth. The truth was the idleness of the people of
Ireland was to be traced to the deficiency of their wages.
What could be expected of a man who only received
2.. 6,1. per week ? He had only one more observation
to nrike before he sat down. lie wished to call attention
to a class of gentlemen that he thought ought to bear
the burdens of Ireland much more so than the hard-
working people of this country. Now it had been stated
by an Irish nobleman of high rank, namely, the Earl of
Mountcashel, that the rental of Ireland was thirteen
millions per annum, but that at least ten mil-
lions were paid for incumbrances. The land-
lords should also be taxed. There was another

class who should be considered in reference to this sub-
ject. He would compel the mortgagees of land in Ire-
land to pay their shares, because the interest upon mort-
gages in Ireland bore a higher rate than elsewhere.—
(No, no.) Now that class (the landlords) were very
much favoured with regard to taxation. The taxation
upon articles of consumption in this country was exceed-
ingly heavy, while in Ireland it amounted to only four
millions and a half. There was no country which had
less taxation for her population or ability than Ireland.
He would conclude by moving the resolution.
Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE said that the speech of the

Nuble Lord, the First Lord of the Treasury, was so ex-

- -
tensive in its nature, and so important in its conse-
quences, that with ,ut making any observation on it, by
way of praise or censure, he was bound to say that it
was drawn up with the greatest care, amid the greatest
difficulties. Whilst he participated in the sentiments of
his Hon. Friend, the Member for Louth, regarding it,
and was of opinion thvt it was characterised by clear
statement, lucid arrangment, and deep research, he must
also say that he could not expect, from the plan proposed
by the Noble Lord, any permanent improvement in the
condition of Ireland. It appeared to him that the scheme
of the Noble Lord was nothing more than what had
been proposed to be done by all preceding Governments,
to go on legislating bit by bit and temporary expedients,
without laying any permanent foundation for the im-
provement of Ireland. Parliament hat not now for
the first time to learn the great amount of distress
which prevailed in Ireland. It was well known to
them that 2,500,000 people of that country were in
more than an ordinary condition in a state of the
greatest destitution, and he could not, therefore, approve
of any measures which would merely have the effect of
temporarily relieving the evil results of the bad legisla-
tion of that House. He thought that the Irish Mem-
bers did their duty in eallieg upon the Govern-
ment to send over food to the Irish people; and, not-
withstanding the mistakes which had been made in
carrying out their measures, he was of opinion that
Government was doing its best to second the efforts of
the Irish Members. He would now take a review of
the measures which the Noble Lord proposed to bring
forward. With regard to the Act of the 9th and 10th
Victoria, he thought it difficult for any Member who
had witnessed its operation to speak of it favourably;
it was the general opinion that it broke up the roads,
impoverished the gentry, demoralised the people, and
burdened the finances of the country.—(Hear, hear.)
It was not his intention to attack the Noble Lord for
passing this Bill. August legislation is apt to be a
hurried affair, especially whet, there is a chance of
grouse shooting. But the Noble Lord should have
called Parliament together at an earlier period than he
had done. If he wanted a precedent, he had one in the
year 1800, when Parliament was convened in the early
part of November, in consequence of the high price of
provisions. As to the futile excuse that he did not like to
inconvenience the Irish gentry, or to take them away
from their estates, it struck him that they could have
been much better spired then than they could now. He
felt persuaded that if the Noble Lord (the Lord Lieute-
nant) had had his own way, they would have had rail-
ways and harbours, and similar productive works, con-
structed, instead of what had been done by the authority
of the Board of Works. He must protest against the prin-
ciple of the Labour Act, which went to charge the real
property of the country with the calamity. He thought
tne Government was neither justified by circumstances
nor precedent in throwing the burden on the land. It
was stated that the gentry were to blame for the lavish
waste of money under the operation of the presentment
sessions. To that he would answer that the money in
many instances bad been voted under protest, and that
the most of it had been expended under, the authority
of the Board of Works, which, with its brilliant
staff of officers, amounting to 11,587, had taken
the whole matter out of the hands of the landed
proprietors. However well quieified generally these
officers might be on local matters and the
business of the various districts, they had shown the
greatest ignorance. It was, therefore, too bad for the
finger of scorn to be pointed at the Irish landlords.
With respect to the change from the present system of
public works, he did not see how it was to be done. It
appeared that these parties were in the position of the
dramatis persona in the play of the Critic, who were all
down on their knees, and the author was at a loss how
to effect their exit. The Noble Lord was in the same
predicament. He was at a loss how to effect the change.
He thought himself that the Noble Lord would have ex-
ercised a much wiser discretion, if, instead of an addition
to the rates fur the purpose of establishing soup-shops,
he had taken into his serious attention the great impor-
portance of tilling the land for the next harvest. There
were 750,000 lams in Ireland, and about one-half of
them were under twenty acres. There was a grant
to these farms of 50,0001. for seed, which would
give about twopence per acre, or would cultivate
25,000 acres, out of all this quantity of land.
If there was any public work to be undertaken
let them give free labour to all farmers under 10 acres,
as that class of farmers had suffered most. The Noble
Lord did not deal justly with the Marquis of Sligo when
! the Noble Lord attacked the Noble Marquis of Sligo the
other evening, because the Noble Marquis not only sa
crificed a large dsei park, but expended 701. a-week in
people of Westbourne with food. The
the Government to take
the Noble upony
t
No doubt Marquis had
SLIT wiYaiisl,gtht-e-Noble Marquis,efflasttheaut4usm. nd,htcalled upon
impetration of corn.
November, 1845, and signe
add
dre,s,s
Je.dit fursosme Edinburgh, ihnuttutthe, t tie
Noble Marquis ma
been reading a letiteer,
'his request in November, 1846,
bad better take off the
warned the Noble Lerd that he
iwnsiteeeandesotef nr,t,evee:nbt,e)rw,arldBs4st.he Tehlieselioeni.
IMasetmbseesrsiefohr,
4bse.caduustey,thbieutcotirtne-Iliacw)bqleueLstoirodn
wellinformedas to
tied. The Noble Lord could not be
hheaedd e
just
snto
beforet the
hweaernn warning,
the real condition of the people of Ireland in certain
places. And, to show that this was the caee, he
ofthe
mining
awould
put the House in possession of the contents of
letter
which he had received from the inspector
companyalthough
hof they p
Ireland.
ai
a wages The
to O mining m
a-head, had almost been on the point of closing their
of
mines. because the people found it almost impossible to
obtain food. It was a very good thing for a man in
c meno aPt
alnsy. .
6tl
Ireland, .
Ireland to get Is. 9d, a day, and yet had it not been for

SDA Y MORNING, FEBRUARY 2,

the munificence of the mining company, with which he deficiency must be made up ,by some extraordinary
' was connected, these people weold have starved, and i means ; bubt with
itshe
(a., amount nt
leave t o be
they absolutely laid in bed from Saturday night till contributedie
~
ti ou tube England,the et
by
settled be House.wa It dispose to
be' remembered,
:Monday morning, with money in their pockets, unable !:1
however,i that whenever' England went to war, Ireland had to
to obtain food. And why ?—because there Was
contribute her money and the energy of her valour towards
no food iii the country. There was another maintaining the contest; and when Ireland was visited by a
subject to which the Noble Lord had turned his
attention. The Noble Lord had estimated the waste calamity very similar to a war, she ought not to be thrown
upon her own resources. He had no hesitation in telling the
lands of Ireland at 4,600,000 acres, which he.proposedito House, that had the Irish Parliament been in existence this
heofcotnhsei;deer27l4o3o,7,o2oso,oaocOrecuarerbeleutoiltyfitto
reclaim. Mr. Griffiths estimates these lards at 6,290.000 great calamity would have been prevented by a great national
mofenwth
ti which
hut not meet the distress out of her own resources,
improve-be effort ; and when he was told that Ireland could
reclaimed for course pasturage for sheep, leaving only he only pointed to the fact that the year previous
about 1,425,000 which were fit to be reclaimed for corn
to the union, Ireland incurred a debt of from theseven
purposes. Then what did the Noble Lord expect to
to eight millions sterling, for the purpose cif maintaining
The
neglect
gain from these waste lands? What war. How different,
the Ministry had left however,
was their position.
thepopulation in a state of
on the subject which had been laid before the commit-
terrible
destitution. He He did not think the Noble Lord had
tee? Why, the Governm • en. had had sufficient experi- given sufficient reason why he had not opened the ports weeks
once of tile reclamation of waste lands on their model farm ago, nor had the Chancellor of the Exchequer shown good
in the county of Cork. They had a model farm at a cause for not supplying the people with food. When the
place called Cobellowlreith, not a very harmonious name people were starving, no doctrines of political economy ought
truly. This farm was taken in King William's time, and to stand in the way ot the relief of a starittng population ;
in 1836 Mr. Griffiths had estimate d the returns. By his and had Government had less scruples about interfering with
account the attempt had been made to re claim the worst speculators and trade, they would not have heard of portions
description of 'soil. It was called flow bog, and st as, in of the population dying of starvation. Rather than suffer
fact, neither more nor less than a sort of loose mud. such a circumstance as that, Government ought to have
The cost of reclaiming this land is 91. 9s. 10d., and scoured the worldis e a
cof
froml one end tot the
totehe r for
e
the whole of the value of the returns had been
etn)rcnou;raee bdu s, rpeculations in doingdemanding, not trade, but monod
-
25/. 12s. 6tl, in four years, giving an average of a poly prices. He came now to the question of employing the
loss of 11. 9s. 81. per acre He would new take people on public works. He would express an opinion with
the next kited of soil. This use a mere compact respect to one of the measure sof Government. He alluded
kind of soil. The cost of reclaiming this soil Was to the money prole:seed to be expended on public works; now
Cl. 3s. per acre, and the returns from it we re on are if that money were to be expended on works of national im-
average, and thes w lode o; t the eroduce in four years ' portance the landlords of Ireland would not object to contri-
was 221. ss. 8.1., showing a 1 •of 11. 1" 9.1'
loss
He was one who thought, that for the good of the laws. Now, he had been always favourable to the
commonwealth that any man's estate ought to be en- Principle
Lord sai d tohfa t thereth e
0 _wtiheenn
to the Noble;
feted upon and taken possession of; but it must be an oti
the principle of the poor-laws, he did In sinjustiee toe the
pen-
extreme ease which justified such a step, and he pie of Ireland. When the Noble Lord alluded to Castkbar,
thought that when this money was to be taken from the he had forgotten to mention the fact that in Ireland there was
people of England to reclaim this land, he thought that a much larger number in the poor-houses than these establish-
it required no little consideration; and if they were to ments were originally intended for. The poor-laws, car-
take this model example he thought they would ried out to the extent proposed, would amount to confiscation
hesitate to expend it on these waste lands. By Mr. in Ireland. With respect to what certain gentlemen had ad-
Grifliths's report, the whole of the return from the model vanced with respect to giving relief in Ireland, he had only to
farm was, during three years, only 23/. 9s. Bd. When obselrvbateorthaet
in nodepto:irl u-elawuld meethowe uvserer
a comprehensive intb principle
the Noble Lord came down to the House and talked of °era;a that afflicted Ireland. Therefore the princasiple
Pe presentru,n n
reclaiming these 4,600,000 acres of lend did he consider gated, with respect to the duration of relief which had been
what was the worth of that land. Ile had calculated promulgated, that if there were a poor-law in Ireland they
the money to be expended on these 4,600,000 acres, and would meet the distress, was erroneous. Now the
found that it would amount to about 4s. an acre, which Noble Lord had said that after the passing of the
was to be expended on land worth about half a-crown measures he had submitted to the House he would
an acre ;he never knew a greater bubble, or had ever introduce subsequent subsidiary measures. After that
heard a more stupendous attempt on the part of any harvest they should have as great a pressure as they
Government to impose upon the House. Then, with had at present, therefore they must take some prompt and
respect to another subject, the Noble Lord seemed to efficient measure for the absorption of surplus labour.
conceive that small holdings were a great benefit to (lle
reference
ar.)
tothisConsidering
thehe
would
loan p w
outa rlhorseud to be advancedsuggestion
withtu
Ireland. How many holdings did the Noble Lord in- the Government subject,that
it would be desirable that the amount
tend to divide these 6,000,000 acres into. For his of the charge ter investigation, together with-the mode of its
own part he believed the small holdings to be one application, should be carefully inquired into. He held in his
of the greatest evils to which Ireland was subject, hand a letter from a gentleman who stated that the amount
and if' the Noble Lot d had ever read the blue book to that would be advanced by the Board of Works, for
which he had so often referred, and which contained the the purpose of subsoil would be very large in-
evidence taken by Lord Devon's commission ; if he deed.—(Hear, hear.) He now came to the application of
could take the Noble Lord into the county of Armagh money for the reclamation of waste land in Ireland. The
he would show him that the prosperity of a country Noble Lord had stated that there were six millions of waste
was nut in proportion to the ratio of population to land in Ireland. He was quite satisfied that if they reclaimed
and of that character they would confer a great benefit on the
acreage surface, but in the ratio of the capital eisgateed 1-
people of Ireland, because they would create a eater number
on that surface. The Neble Lord seemed to be quite of
• •
small proprietors in fee—a most desirables lass—and the
unaware of the state of Ireland, and seemed to conceive scheme, if well managed, would work most successfully. With
that it would be wisest to employ the people in t::e cul- respect to encumbered land (we understood the Honourable
tivation of corn. He would tell the Noble Lord that the Gentleman to say) he thought it was most injurious
potato was the only produce that could be obtained in to have land possessed by proprietors who had a
sufficient quantity to feed the people, and that serial moral influence from their position but no capa-
produce sufficient for the purpose never could be ob- bility of improving their land. The Noble Lord had also
tained to support the people. And if he could take Sir proposed to introduce measures of a temporary character for the
R. Kean and Mr. Kingcede into Ireland,- lie commutation of tithes. That, he believed, would effect much
would show that it was so. • He had himself a good, With respect to fisheries, he would offer an observe-
great number of cottier tenantry, and he had Lion. There were 90,000 persons engaged in fisheries in Ire-
been obliged to pay the rates for them all. The Noble land who might be employed in augmenting the supplies for
um years. The Noble Lord should have recollected it had
Lord at the head of the Foreign Department, who was ' teen pressed, year afterby Commissions the subject.
one eif the best landlords in Ireland. could have told him The extension of these t year,ses-le
on
would.ash he had already
if they had had any conversation with him in the cabinet, stated, augment the supplies of food, and, therefore, were
that on one of his estates of 600 acres, the holdings entitled to the consideration of the Government. With respect
were divided into only an acre and a half each, on which to the subject of emigration, be would detain the House for a
at least a population of 2,000 was located, and that he few moments. They must only send out to their colonies as
never received 100/. from the estate in hie life, and that many as those colonies could receive. But 200.000 persons
on a nominal rental of 4,0001. he did not receive 401.
mcouldiht bee entnsirtatoeut t o t
to
the
elt; colonies,jnited tatein independent
The
irsinnbof those wh
o
'The Noble
Lord had
They cou.d not get food of the land, much less pay either
omitted to mention in his measures one thing that was more
their rent or their rates. In another place on an estate important than all of them. He meant a measure that
of 212 acres, there were 700 people domiciled, and the would secure to the tenantry of Ireland the right
establishment of the soup kitchens would have as little of compensation .for their improvements, and that
effect in alleviating their conditions as the other measures would tend more to the employment of surplus labour in Ire-
which had been proposed. This Bill was only printed land than perhaps any other measure thatcobueldr!isoebt;eropAolsed.
on the 29th of January last, and there would be a strong
bWerithfoo
ru ti, venturing ttunrtienngd
intended
dpotno thehri o
g subjecthefor whichbefore
the House,t he would
opportunity to it until the people of Ireland had had an
that Lynn
employment of labour in Ireland upon railways
opportunity of considering its provisions. It reminded
sayshould be afforded by every possible means. There was one
him of the account given of the cholera by a friend
of his, who said it was a disease which began with other
subject to which he wished to allude,—namely,
-ab-
senteeism, as he felt fully persuaded that until
death ; and if the Noble Lord proposed to give outdoor they had adopted some measure to induce the absent proprie-
relief to the aged, the sick, and the destitute under his tory to perform their duties towards Ireland, it would be im-
new poor-law, there would be no objection ; but if he possible to produce that state of felicity which the Noble Lord
persevered in giving relief to able-bodied labourers with contemplated. 4,000,000/. were drawn from Ireland in absen.•
out the workhouse test, it would be bringing relief by teeism, and it was impossible to conceive that a country under
introducing a system that would commence with vice, these circumstances could flourish. He would take an oppor-
violence, and revolution. It would be destroying the sanity of testing the opinion of the House upon this question.
last spark of self-aspect in the minds of the peasantry, There were several details which he would not feel justified
and depriving them hereafter of any probability of in entering upon at present, but which hereafter the House
helping themselves- Would the Noble Lord take the would have an opportunity of discussing. He would not con-
consequences of this system ? The whole of the
elude without expressing a hope that the Government would
employ the national resources of Ireland on works'of national
rental in Ireland was estimated at 10,000,000/., while the advantage.
number of the destitute poor were estimated at 2,500,000. Mr. ROEBUCK said, that as a Member representing an
persons, and as he believed the Irish rate of relief in the English eounty, he hoped it would not be considered imper-
poor-IP,..uses was rated at Is. 9d. each, the Canst quence tinent in him to make a few observations to the Government,
would be that the cost, as he had calculated it, would on the subject of the present condition of Ireland, because, if
be 11,379,000 i. This would not only absorb the whole the representative of that country were to be allowed to make
of the remit-el in Ireland. but a great portion of the recital their statements of misery and want, it might be fancied that
of England also ; and he thought a stronger argument distress did not extend beyond the shores of Ireland, or that
could not be adduced to the landlords of England than relief was needed by none other than her unhappy population.
this was. They wished to put the screw on the land- iTnhaerdeiffweerreer,t however,s irit
fr 0 others s
ew
whohtt suffered,
re b utsewnhtoe
dsubffetrhe
the
lords of Ireland, and he believed they were right ; but Hon. MembersPfor Ireland—who suffered, but without byyearn-
they !night put the screw too far; and it should be recol- hey
of the misconduct of Government—and who, while
lected that the landlord only paid half the rates, and the they suffered, laboriously endeavoured to help themselves,
tenant farmer the other. If they were to have the poor- and that, too, by their own unaided energies, who
law of England in Ireland let them have it altogether, animated by a desire to help, disdained to throw themselves in
for the landlords would prefer that to this bit-by-bit abject and it
boldly,
impotence before theHouse,bburt
system ; but if they did do so let them recollect the nom-
conditionstrove
manfully, and in inistei?''taon their energetically
nn
ecessitiesameliorateektneewi
tier of tenant farmers in England. If they introduced
the present oor law the would have to ad- that it had been insinuated that a malignant spirit dictated the
vance at least . y par or five millions more—(Hear)—
opinions of those who held opinions upon the present duty of
and
the Government similar to those entertained by himself. He
of what use was a poor-law in the time of famine.
In threwback the inuendo with its deserved contempt. He had
1547, within three years after the pet favourite of the a duty to perform to his own country, and that duty he was de-
Hon. Member, the 43d of Elizabeth had been passed, a terrained to fulfil to the utmost of his abilities. The House
to legislate for Ireland in a particular
dearth occurred in the country, and it was universally. was now called
Theup upon
noble Lord at the head of the Government,
allowed that the people were starving from the want of emergendey:
his measures to the notice of the House, had, it
food. Eight years after that another famine had oc- in introucing
other measures not having for their object
curred, and. a Committee of that House had sat to in appeared,proposedmdiate rlief of the people of Ireland, but for the re.
quire into the causes, and they had unanimously made
generationthe
elm
of that country.—( Hear, heard.)
intTohethre e measuresdis
a report that it was utterly beyond the power of a poor- of the Noble Lord might be sei,araotfe
the distress of the
law to prevent the sufferings of the people. How could
tinct parts, first, the ameliorationecnstruction of its national it then obviate the present calamity of Ireland. There
country ; secondly,
the
relatingr- to what was passing in the
cha-
was another great omission in the plan of the Noble racter; and the thirdor,d
when he made the mysterious corn-
Lord. He would nut speak of emigration, for that mind of the Noble
_L
House upon the subject of the future
would be to set the whole country against any man who munication thetoland.
It behoved the House well to consider
con-
mighthave adopted a system of wholesale colonisation for dition
of
Ire the state of Ireland, that there were
the country, and he was surprised when he saw so able when they contemplatedbroad distinctions between the classes of
in that country two
a man as the Lord Advocate among the Government—a
s inhabitants, there was a large majority of the people hying
man who had turned his attention so much to the sub its
a labouring population upon the laud, and there was another
this
was surprised that he had not be en consulted on
class, consisting of persons, who were the so.called proprietors
god- important point. He was not for adopting any d of the land. Both of these classes were now as mendicants
less system of colonisation, for he would place it under
before the House—the one asked of the House that the people
the direction of the minister's relig
to the colonists, comion, and have it so
should be relieved from starvation, the other demands, in a
managed that no evil should result
but mending tone, that the landlords should be saved from
'.ruin. It was necessary for the House to consider the condition con 1 ion
that a great bereft should be obtained for the count',
The labouring •
speech of the of those two classes. population of Ireland
There was one other great omission in the sPe
the re- were habitually bordering upon starvation, they were always
Noble Lord, for he cenceived that no system fbirdid not upon that great calamity ; the brink of that misery, into e
generation of Ireland would be complete which
) No abyss of which they had fallen in the present year,
altogether obviate the evils of that system.— (hle.ar' They were a people who had always been reduced to subsist
I alter
measure could be successful that did not entire yo do on the lowest species of food in which, in a civilised condition,
the condition of the agricultural classes, it is possible for a human being to live, and upon the smallest
caountry.
away with this small holdings in that
a class. quantity ot that unwholesome and inefficient food. They lived
for it had destroyed the agricultural labourers anst
would upon the smallest. holdings of land, not as in other countries,
The Noble Lord complained that the Irish pease
work ,_ -ti
1" wheerree rtehmeurneeturartumwgas wagess small,
were given in return for labour, but
work its .London or Liverpool, but would not uncertain, badly and unskilfully
because applied, without the assseiasatance
Ireland. What was the reason of that ?
why, yvv'ell paid, the skill which education could whicheenfer capTithaleicrolulhd render, or
in England his work was required, and
was well
and power of mere brute force applied by numbersa toourthweasl thed
while in Ireland he sought in vain fur employment,
was not a having for its return the smallest quantity which a soil, naantu,
when he got it, he was badly paid. There
the world than rally fertile, could produce. In this condition the race had
able, a more industrious labourer in
the Irish peasant, but in Ireland it was useless
to attempt multiplied exceedingly, and the multiplication of the numbers
Member
for of that unhappy people had been aided by its proximity to
to work.—(Hear, hear.) '
rho
11°12.
f the absent, e England, for in spite of every means which could be adopted to
Limerick (Mr. S. O'Brien) complained 0
mischievous class prevent it, capital, however small, had dribbled into Ireland,
landlords, but there was a much more
. al owners of and those small sums had had only the effect of increasing the
noun amount of population, without in the least degree elevating their
than that, and that was the class of oent and
of some a. • national character. Such was the physical condition of the
property, men who were at the mercy
or be of use to any great body of the labouring population of Ireland. Nor were
who could neither help themselves
be got rid of, they to be considered •
to
lass which ought ... .
body else. This was a c
ve the conaition of Ire- sent was but an acute form of the disease; starvation was at
for if they really meant to improve
0_
the
evil, uo away present existing, mere starvation was constantly threatening.
land, they must go to the roaontinfg.
loans, and alter They were not a class of persons who, although they laboured,
with this effete system g
of property in Ireland. Then live by the wages of labour, for in most cases they had the
the whole system of real
system of
government in Ire- worst of all masters—the poor man himself. This was the
also alter the .
with their Lord Lieu- class who came to that house and asked for bread to keep them
they must
t •ther do away wi from starvation. It was not because the people of England
land. They moss el
king in reality ; and they must
or make hire a did not sympathise with their distress that they hesitated to
meeting at stated seasons tenant,
Parliament assuage it, but it was because they believed that any relief
take steps also for If the Lord Lieutenant was to
in the Castle of' Dublin.
be made a member of the wouldonly extendthe distress they .
be must multiply the horrors they so fervently desired to avert. He
be an efficient agent,
Cabinet. It was of no use to have a person in Irel d
'
au would now advert to the other body who demanded to be re-
sitting behind a cu
fibrous lumbering vehicle, in idle in- deemed from ruin. He spoke not of all the landlords of Ire-
efficiency, while another person in a distant place was land. He took upon himself to say that the nominal pro-
driving them
roughly over the stones. Tlandlords hen, again, piietors of Ireland were not the
there must be ne
of that bitterness of disposition, that —( Hear, hear.) The real landlords of Ireland were the
acerbity on the scoreno of religion, that odium theologicum. mortgagees and the tax-gatherers. The Irish landlord had all
~ y ~, hid' believeth all things, hopeth the desire fer show which landed pre prietorship could bestow,
that forgets the chart
but they were not possessed of the wealth which should be the
• his first peaceable, then pure,and h•
all things, whic
for if they did not lookjto this, the support of tha. pride, and the maintenance of that love of dis-
thinketh no evil ; it might appear tee
be,
could, play, and the consequence was, that, like their poorer country-
union, however binding
-e.: never prove anything men, the landlords, too, were in a state of chronic disease
with religious Jiff rent. ..!..t a
difference, I was spirit that
. would roll the masters of their own estates, and are obliged to live from
than a party . .
lisation to the 16 1
back the waters of civilisation L 1 century, but, hand to mouth, craving at everything, grasping at everything,
in the words of the
opoet,he warned them— and totally unable to perform the duties which really devolved
e
°e Nor deal damned()
~
foe, these
round the land upon the possessor of the soil. When he saw such men as
On each he deems his
these come to demand of the House to be preserved from ruin
This country owed a vast debt to Ireland for its centu- he was driven to inquire, what was the cause of their forlorn
ds of Ireland had been in
ent, and it was not to be cancelled be condition.
lapsUnhaily the landlor
ries of misgovernment,
sure of all the miseries which
a mere pecuniary com neat on onl •-' reality the cause great measure
penSti . y. It could only be s - country.
They had always been a
[louse passing a law for relief
of had befallen their unhappy
cancelled by that - _ ,
e,.___ . the
Ireland in a wise, largo, an° u 'inprehensive spirit, tree for that country had been dictated to by landlords. The Govern-
from sectarian intolerance, and parochial bigotry.— ment Lad passed the multitudes of the people in order to give
(Cheers.) _
additional strength to the dominance of the landlords. They
Mr. S. O'BRIEN wished to address a few words to the had misapplied all those powers which successive Goovterenmbreinnts
House upon this all-absorbing topic, and he did not think he had given them, and had now brought themselvesut_ertinkhof k
duty he had
could better accomplish the
the
imposed upon himself of ruin, and the whole body of the people t 7 h b
The steps star-
thanwere
by following the topics in _ order they were adverted e vation. But how has this been effected .
to istake
by the Noble • Lord at the head of. the Government, when he certain and clear. It was impossible
Irish
landed
addressed the House the other evening. The Noble
Lord ,
in them. The general character of the
of
the first place, referred to those melancholy statistics with re- proprietor was some years past ona joyousha
Bard to Ireland which had latterly been brought under the con- h Pn• l't •• • their national character was, that.they_
ospi adi } , .
sideration of Parliament ; but the Noble Lord did not and the consequence of the deficiency of that
appe_ar nu pru ence ,
to draw the obvious deduction from them that the that their hospitality brought them constantly into
result of misrule.--( Hear, hear.) He would, howeey were the vdierbttue wbeanso,in
T,
i indebted, they looked around them in order to
that part of the subject till another occasion,
and
en er, reserve .
; hpresent wants could be supplied ;to attain
me at once discover ow their
ked and at length
to the question of distress. Now it was not was ransacked fair to say there this end, every possible resource
had been a loss of so many overspreads the country
acres of tatoes the monstrous grievance which now
small divisions
which, under ordinary circumstances, amounted to Po
' ' its • and the distribution of land into
a certain took rise,
the poor men commenced a
quantity ; but it was their duty to calculate what the took lace. Then it was that
wasp • possession of
amount of corn which it would be necessary •competition with each other to obtain
to receive in order system of
• duced to bid against each
to replace that loss of potatoes. Proceedin 'they were in
upon such seal- these small parcels ;
demands of the landlords were
culation, it appeared to him that the loss of gotcould 1 other, and the most extravagant
be replaced by a certain quantity of corn. pNoatoesl on y
complied with by the parties _ who so eagerly desired pos-
eadilbeen, that the
had
tainted by Ireland, by the destruction of the potato-crop, the loss sus- ( rsessiony.
The consequence of this
not be computed at less than twenty or thirtyPae-crop, could
Ireland were much_ fromi than they were
millions sterling,
rents inthe land went
and he asked the House in what way that loses E gland. A larger return
s was to be made in n
up. At all events, it was quite clear that the into the pockets of the landlords, and of all the larger sums

1811.

which thus found their way into these pockets none returned
back to the soil in that manner in which it is returned by the
landlords of England, in the improvement of their estates, in
look ng after their tenants. and benefiting the condition of the
people. Such was the condition of by far the largest propor-
tion of the Irish landlords. There was, however, an exception
to this class. He believed that many of the absentee landlords
instead of deserving the censure which had been so lavishly be-
stowed upon them, were, on the contrary, deserving of praise.
He believed, and he coald mention the names of many Noble
Lords, well known to Members of that House, who would be
found to be among the number of the most beneficent landlords
in Ireland. He need only mention the name of a Noble Mar-
quis—the Marquis of Lansdowne—in order to satisfy the
House of the truth of his assertion. He ( Mr. Roebuck)
saw one great source of Irish evils in having the people abso-
lutely bound to the soil, and unable to depend upon or to de-
part from it. If they were sent from their holdings, they would
be perfectly ;unable to obtain their living. Of all the ob-
servations which fell from the Noble Lord at the head of
the Government when he last addressed the House,
that one who had studied the subject of Ireland so much,
should have stated that the sub-division of property in that
country was nut an evil—that surprised him most. That part
of Ireland which he adduced in order to prove his assertion,
was a manufacturing part of Ireland. The land in _that district
was held by persons who maintained themselves by other occu-
pations, and those little holdings in the neighbourhood of
Armagh, to which the Noble Lord had alluded,
were held more by way of recreation than any-
thing else. As well might the Noble Lord have
said that the suburban districts of London were divided into a
number of small divisions, and endeavoured to infer from that,
that the sub-division of land was not injurious. He would
again briefly allude to the great maskr evil of Ireland. The
unfortunate division of land into these petty holdings, from
wh oh the landlords could not remove their tenants, they being
in reality more the possessors of the land than the landlord,
themselves. What was then to be done ? Was it possible by
any means so to fashion the legislation of the Government as
to make it the interest of certain parties to watch over and ,
prevent this constant sub-division of land ? If the Govern-
ment could not do that, they must throw down their hands and
give up the tasks. Until that could be done, it was useless to
hope to do any good for Ireland. He thought, however, that
it was within the legitimate means of Parliament to accom-
plish that end, but he must deprecate every attempt on
the part of the Government to become a land-jobber, a corn-
factor, or a road-maker. All those things were beyond
the province of Government, and the Noble Lord had stated
most truly that it was impossible for the Government to feel
a whole nation. He would take upon himself to say that no
people could be directed in the application of their industrial
powers by any Government. All that Governments could do
was to protect life and property— to give the means, and '
make easy and certain the transmission of property—to make
secure the titles to property, and thus subsidiarly to protect
life and property, and to raise the condition of the people by
education. No Government in the world ever went beyond those
bounds without doing mischief, and never was so striking an
instance given of the mischievous results consequent upon
over-stepping those bounds than had been given in the history
of the last four months. A return had been laid upon the
table of the House this morning containing the correspondence
of the Board of Works. Although he had not been able to go
through the wholeof it, still from what little he had seen he must
say that such an exhibition he never witnessed as the waste-
ful expenditure which that book .disclosed. He did not say
intentional waste on the part of the Government, but in spite
of all their best endeavours to prevent it, they were totally
incapacitated properly to distribute money. The moment they
set themselves up as the buyers of labour—labour directly left
its accustomed and legitimate sources to flow into their channel.
—(Hear. hear.) The Irish people left profitable employment
in the north of England, and even Liverpool. They struck
by thousands, and said that they were going to Ireland to take
the Queen's money. All agricultural labour was suspended,
and the consequence, starvation in its moat aggravated Corms
was made apparent for the ensuing year. What was it that
had done this? Should not the Government take
warning by this example ? It had overstepped its proper
limits, and had taken upon itself to be the provider
of food and labour for the whole people, and the at-
tempt had proved an utter failure. What had it done ? It
had demoralised the whole nation. It had taught the people
this great, dangerous, and mischievous lesson—that it they
could only make it appear to the Government that the distress
was general, there was then no necessity for their doing any-
thing for themselves. He wished the Government to under-
stand that it had to legislate for England as well as for Ireland.
Ought they not to look to the comforts of their own labouring 1
population ? Ought they not to look and carefully guard
against that moral pestilence which, like a mighty tide, would
roll its waves from the shores of that unhappy country to this?
If such conduct were to be pursued towards Ireland as had re-
cently been pursued, was there not a danger of the English
labourer becoming discontented, and asking the unanswerable
question, why he should be oppressed with toil and bowed
down to the earth by its continuous weight when he saw the
Irish pauper fed with his money, they themselves doing nothing
to lighten their burdens or to ameliorate their own divre,ses ?
Were they, he would ask, to see this moral pestilence per-
vading the land, and he unwilling, or hesitating, or afraid, to
put it down? He would not be terrified to do so ; and in the
name of his own poor countrymen, he protested against the
proceeding of the Noble Lord. He protested against the
Government providing constant employment to the Irish. He
protested against the hard won earnings of the English people
being applied to the drainage of Irish waste lands. He lastly
protested against the inefficient poor-law, proposed to be es--
tablished. He wanted to know did that Bill give to the
people of Ireland a legal and necessary relief ? If not, then,
they had no poor-law. If it gave them a right to legal and
necessary relief, then it must give a right to relief
in some place. And if it gave them that right there must be
also a law of settlement and of removal, and there must be
machinery to carry it into effect.—( Hear, hear.) There was
no such thing, however, and he predicted that if they attempted
to go on as an Hon. Gentleman said to-night by such bit by
bit legislation, they would never establish any permanent im-
provement in the condition of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) A
wise statesman would take advantage of the present emergency, -
and one effectual mode by which the recurrence of it would be
prevented, would be to fax upon the land of Ireland the support ,
of the poor.—( Hear, hear.) He protested, therefore,
against the poor-law of the Noble Lord. What then
were they to do ? Let thin introduce the English
poor-law. If it was good for England it should be equally
good for Ireland, and would, he had no doubt, be effective in
preventing the destitution which so widely prevailed in that
country. In addition to this, he would also like to see a
searching reform into the whole property law of Ireland, mak-
ing the transmission of it easy, and better securing the title.
There must be no tenderness evinced in this respect, for ten-
derness to the landlords would be cruelty to the people.
( Hear, hear.) In referring to the condition of Ireland, he
did not wish to detract from the share which England, by her
bad legislation, bad contributed, to produce such a state of
things. The injustice of England was nowrecoiling upon herself.
He acknowledged it. He deprecated, however, the attempts 1
which were being made to repeal the union between the two
countries, for he believed that would be the greatest evil which
Ireland yet suffered from. There was not a single benefit 1
which the people of that country had a right to that he did
not support. He believed they had long been a misgoverned i
people, but in no case did they suffer so much as in respect to
religion, and he thought that, irrespective of this considers' ion,
it would be wholly and entirely hopeless to regenerate the
Irish character. If they left the Irish Church Establishment
remaining there could be no hope for Ireland. They were
trying to reconstruct the character of the Irish
people,
but, so long as the House left that mischief
existing as it was then their efforts would Le utterly and en-
tirely hopeless.—( Hear, hear.) He had no antipathy—he
had no fear of Catholics as opposed to Protestants— he looked
upon both with the same eye, and he could not help remarking
that if they left the Irish priesthood in the condition they then
were, the unhappy state of things which he had been describ-
ing would continue to prevail. That was a subject which at
present occupied mens' minds much, and was one on which
few were disposed to express what they really felt. He
thought it his duty, however, to declare what no one seemed
disposed to avow, that as long as the Irish priest-
hood were left in the position in which they
then were, so long would they find it their interest
to perpetuate the unhappy state of things which existed. Ho
did not want the Government to come forward and propose a
State endowment, for die Government which attempted to
make a State provision for them, would not, he believed, stand
for 24 hours after.—( Hear, hear.) But if they did away with
the law of mortmain, and enabled priests to acquire land by
gift or otherwise, to the amount of 300/. a year, such a mea-
sure would tend to the pacification arid improvement of Ireland
more than any other yet proposed. There was only one
other means to attain that object—namely, by a repeal of the
nnion, and by allowing each municipality under the federal con-
stitution which would then exist, to pay any priesthood it plea-ed.
But any attempt to pay the Catholic priesthood out of the im-
perial treasury would, in the present circumstances of this
country, be accompanied by the destruction of that Ministry
who made such a proposal. When they did this, they should
provide as far as possible for the education of the Irish people.
And for this purpose they had funds in their own hands,
namely, the surplus revenue of the Irish Church Establishment,
after suitably providing for its wants. He deprecated any pro-
vision from the imperial treasury for this purpose. Nothing
could be worse than this dependence en Government support.
One Gentleman asked the Government to carry on public
works ; another, fisheries ; another, to purchase seed corn ; an-
other, to promote drainage ; and another, to make railroads.
Government was to do everything. The Hon. Member for
Limerick said that they should provide food for the people of
Ireland, and of all places in the world, that they should go for it
to the Faulkland Islands—(Laughter)—barren islands, from
which no produce could be brought. He wanted to know what
Government was not expected to do? He supposed they were
to feed, to clothe, and to shave every gentleman.--(Laughter )
It might not appear a matter for jesting, but he never heard
anything so lamentable as that such a demand should come
from a nation whose soil and climate were as good as theirs—
so intellectual and populous a nation—their equals, and
he never denied that they were so, in intellectual
and physical capacity.—( Hear, hear.) There was one
great difference, however, between the two nations, and that

and to discharge the burdens of the -three countries, and hid a
right, when i 4) visited, to relief Out of the coffers of the nation.
In dealing with the Indian- revenue. upwaids of twenty
years ago, Sir Robert Yeel slit ke of vur Indian
pos,essions as having a right, in the ease of an

••
insufficient revenue to expenditute, to as;is4ance fr:rn
home. The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Bath ( Mr.
Roebuck) had attacked the Irish iandlords, but tie thought he
was justified in saying that the Irish landlords, during the
present calamity, bad done all in their power to alleviate the
distresses of their country. Ile had already stated his opinion
that the poor-law ofboth countries ought to be assimilated, and
he was still strongly of that Onion ; but he warned the Govern-
ment, that at such a time, they would find it utterly impossible
to raise the ratesnecessary for the support of more workhouses.
He believed that the surest, way to benefit Ireland was by the
application of capital in the development of her resources.
They would thus teach Ireland to make use of the advantages
which lay mound her, and then he trutted that a happier day
awaited her.

j Sir R. H. INGLIS said that, notwithstanding his great
respect for the Noble Lord, he could not but observe that, in
the beginning of his speech, he had endeavoured to revive doc-
trines which he (Sir H. Inglis) considered to have been long
ago exploded. The Noble Lord began his speech by saying
that in the city of Cork there had been a combination
amangst the salters of cern, I.y which the price of corn hod been
raised in the in, k,,t. Now, it should be remembered that the
city of Cork con aintel 100,000 inhabitants; and, admitting the
fate, which he was by no teens willing to do, that there had
been such a combination, were there not I.lcll citie, as Water-
forei, Dublin, and Bristol ? And could rny man seriously be-
lieve that, supposing there as ere ten ships engag,d in the com-
bination, some one -of the ',umber woeld rot—to use a rul-
trarism—strip over—( Hear, hear)—and the rival dealers
from those towns would soon put an end to the pressure in
the market. He ro,e immediately after the Hon. and Learned
Alember for Bat h.• because he had, in his first sentence, stated
that he rns as an English Meieher, reeegnizing the principle
that the question before them should not be treated as one of
local, but of national importance. Availing himself, there-
fore, of ale privilege of being an English Member, he wished
to take the earliest opportunity o ohjrct to a large portion of
his speech. Indeed he should have thought, that in the pro-
posed measures there would have been ample food for legisla-
tion to the most voracious appetite. But not content with
the three Bills upon the table, the Learned Member,
er
wiyth
ointhexer-
haustible ingenuity, had contrived to bring in
vexata questio.—( Hear, hear.) For the special accommoda-
tion of one Hon. Member, he proposed to revive the appro-
priation clause ; and for the accommodation of other Hon.
Members he proposed several other additions to the policy of
the Government. The Hon. and Gallant Member who spoke
from the bench behind him (Sir R. Inglis), also surprised him
very much, in not referring to the comprehensive policy
of the Noble Lord, end by viewing it as whit-by-bit policy. If
ever there was so large a measnre proposed for the regeneration
of a great nation, he had read history but to little purpose ;
for whether it was right or wrong, he looked upon it as most
comprehensive. His immediate object in rising was to bring
back the consideration of the House from extraneous subjects
to the real question, namely, the miserable condition of the
great bulk of their fellow-subjects. At that moment the
eves of the empire were concentrated upon the House with a
deep sympathy for the sufferings of their fellow creatures in
Ireland. And when the Member for Bath talked of express-
ing the indignation of the people of England at the measures
of her Majesty's Government, he, for one, hoped that he would
find himself mistaken, and that the English people would feel
nothing but an intense desire to promote the present benefits about
to be conferred upon the Irish people—he limited himself to
the present benefie—for both with respect to the cause and to
the re eedies, he did think it their first duty to consider in what
manner those evils might be relieved. He at the same time
quite concurred wi h much that had been stated with regard to a
great mass of their tellow countrymen in Ireland—he meant
the landed proprietors—there might be still such
cha asters as those which had been so inimitably
depicted by the talented novellist, in " Castle Rack-rent."
But whether they do commit a series of faults, they have been
stricken by the hand of God and it became them to give their
readiest, thei. most cheerful, and their most active sympathy.
And how had the calamity been borne by these poor people?
He did not recant any praise which he had bestowed upon the
people of Scotland, but the debate was on Ireland
exclusively, and he did not in the least exgegerate when
he said that they bore their sufferings with
unexampled patience. He desired to draw the attention of the
House to pertain reports made by the agent of a most benevo-
lent religious body—the Society of Fr.ends, who had deputed
certain members of their body to visit Ireland with the
warmest and the most intelligent desire to promote their in.
teres•s. The statement which they give of the actual distress
is one which it is not pleasant to read, but he desired permis-
sion to draw attention to it, in order to show how well the
people had earned their warmest sympathies. The Hon.
Member then read several extracts. One was that the poor
starving creatures in the districts of Louth and Leitrim
were keeping each ether alive by sharing their last morsel.
This was a general statement, but he could give hundreds of
individual cases. He could not rift ain from one in particular.
The visitor entered a cabin of about four feet high, and about
nine- feet square, on the side of a road, he found the inhae
bitants to consist of a widow and several children ; 11-4
addition to the family, he saw an old superannuated wo-
man, sitting in a corner, and rocking to and fro her
matted grey hair, which fell over her face, and added to her
squalid and wretched appearance. She was scarcely
clothed ; immediate y behind her was her pallet of damp and
dirty straw, which she hardly ever left. It appeared that she
was no relative of the widow of the house, who allowed her to
stay there merely from a feeling of clprity. Might they not say
of her as of the widow of old—" She gave more than they all."
The Right Hon. Baronet proceeded to read statements, exhie
biting the lamentable state of distress in different parts of the
country. An Hon. Member had referred to the workhouse of
Castleitar, exhibiting the utmost degree of destitution, but he
(Sir R. H. Inglis) knew of other circumstances equally
afflicting. One union was 2,0001. in debt, and notice was
given the other day that unless the rates were paid up the
guardians would be obliged to sell the house and turn the
wretched inmates out upon the world. He knew another
instance, where the inmates of the union were obliged to sleep
upon the straw, as they had nothing in the shape of bedding.
The whole appearance of affairs indicated great approaching
social change which would not only affect the peasantry,
hut the landlords also, and could it be wondered that such a
change should take place when the rents of that uthappy
country had so greatly increased without any corresponding in •
crease in the value of the soil. He thought that some means
should be adopted to induce Irish aleentees to return to the
localities, which would be much benefited by their pre-
sence, and although a direct tax might not be expedient, still a
virtual impost by an efficient poor-law might have the effect of
inducing them to remedy the evils which were so created
in a material degree by their lengthened residences in other
countries.

Colonel CONNOLLY said, that while thanking the Noble
Lord for the wise and beneficent measures to Ireland, and
With respect to the particular measures before the House, he
thought that not above two or three objections could be urged
against them. He considered, however, that these
might be advantageously met in committee. They
might, . for instance, limit the facilities which the
measure gave for the exertion of local patronage. But there
was another and a much greater objection. He regretted to
find that many Hon. Members, and with them the lion. Mem-
ber for Stroud, had one panacea for the ills of Ireland--
namely, the opening of the poor-law to its fullest extent.
Every workhouse except the workhouse of Castlebar, had been
made to contain as many paupers as they could possibly hold;
and he was persuaded the evils of the system would be
much increased if they extended relief to the able-b idied
labourers who might seek it untler the arrangemebts proposed
by the Noble Lord at the head of the Government. life con-
sidered the present poor-law sufficient for all the purposes
required. He was bound to say that it had worked admirably
well since it was introduced, wherever it had been
properly carried into effect. In his part of the
country, near to Dublin, this had been the case,
though it might not have worked so well in the rt mote parts
as was desirable. He confeosed he looked with apprehension
on the extraordinary rat, a that would be required, if they ex-
tended, in the manner proposed, the plan of relieving the able.
bodied ',Mowers in the workhouse. The proposition of the
Noble Lord was one he was desirous of treating with great
leniency, still, he (Colonel Connolly) could not avoid pointing
out the difficulty that would arise from the plan
under the ccmsidetation of the House. With respect to
the Castlebar proceedings, which had been referred to, he had
been informed by Lord Lucan, that the reason why a rate had
been objected to there, was the tact that 2,000/ of an old rate
remained uncollected, and it was considered that that should
be got in befoie a new rate was levied. Neither was he satis-
fied with the Government proposition for the cultivation and
improvement of the lands, and thought it would not operate so
beneficial y as was believed: There was another point to
which be wished to refer; it was the , proposal to
advance 50,0001. for the purchase of seed fer
the land. He considered this was too little, and hoped the
Government would extend the loan. Some apprehension was
expressed that many of the MA estates were so encumbered
with debts and mortgages that they would not be able to re-
deem the advances, and that the property would pass out of
their hands. However much he might regret that, he did net
doubt but that in many instances it would be attended with
goad results. He knew of two estates in the county in which
he resided, which had changed hands with the best effects.
While in possession of the previous proprietors, there was no-
thing but misery and litigation. Two-thirds of the cases
brought before the county magistrates were from these estates;
but since they had passed into the hands of the Marquis of
Clonmel an& Mr. Parrim, there had been a vast change for the
better. A more rapid transition in the condition of a body of
people he had never known.
Mr. HUME—The Hon. and Gallant Member who had last
spoken said that he trusted her Majesty's Ministers would not
allow the able-bodied men of Ireland to become a burden upon
the land. Did the Holt and Gallant Member mean that they
should becomes burden upon the people of England?—( Laugh-
ter and cheers.) Some Irish Members entertained proper opi-
nions and principles on this subject, for they avowed that Ire-
land should support its own poor, and so raise themselves in the
scale of society and national independence.—( Hear, hear.)
What appeared to him (Mr. Hume) the most singular feature
in the case, was that the Hon. Members expressed their grati-
tude to her Maje3ty's Ministers because they gave them money.
--("Hear, hear," from Colonel Connolly.) "Hear, hear," said
the Hon. Member. Why, because the Government gave money
to the landlords of Ireland. If that was the opinion of one so
eminent, and so distinguished, and so well known, as the Hon.:
Member, it was time to ask the Ministry if they wereeno_toevnetmer:
ing upon a wrong course ; it was time to ask th 7reland.
ment not to give money to the landlordof
be
Ireland.dragged
rrweilsoaeuersidide sw
with money,
of Ireland, and at
down in affirmedil ti s tfhuatti leEn attemptgla England
to and
remedy
meadhye Scotland
tophiolm
tlhfeth:aymweetriemetotobesubpuplidyenthede
lwa-nit.dhlort
he could see no end to the evil. It did appear to him from.
'
certain statements ma de by the Noble Lord that he was dis-
posed to take a proper view of the remedies fitted
for
that country. There were indeed some omis-
sions, and he (Mr. Hume) had taken it upon him-
self to point out a few of them. While they
were trying means of palliating these distresses, he
did not see one measure calculated to afford a hope of any radi-
iami change. It
to l t
theas,
hwea s
H, tohuesree
tf oo r eh, a
va
em
bast:
tcearl iomf ptrboveemm,enntt
steirriroaudsic
wuhuicmhe)wteLeugtobtguthidaet
bAelfionreisttehresyinagthreet7
mforaettei tr
st,haenpdrihneci(phl principles
.
to grant one shilling they ought to have a distinct statement
of the course which the Ministry intended to pursue. When
the House heard nothing 4dvanced for the purpose of relieving
Ireland but money—money—money— ( Laughter)—he could
tell the Ministry that their treasury would very soon
be empty.—(Hear, hear.) Seven or eight millions of
money were to be expended, and he believed that if no reme-
dial measures wire introduced they would require to spend
three times that amount. They might depend upon it that
the best time to meet an evil was at the commencement ; and
it was better to do so by other means than by spending the
balance in an Exchequer which was left full by their prede-
cessors. If a want of employment was felt in this country
and in Scotland, with a decrease of exports, and a diminution
of wages, he should like, to know how at that time they would
be enabled to procure ten or eleven millions of money by
way of loan. Why, it would shake the credit of the whole
country. He thought that same permanent, and not merely
temporary measures ought to be adopted in this crisis. Let
them look to the degraded state of Ireland, the system of land
tenure prevalent there, the state tit the landed proprietors and
the degtaded state of the people altogether, and he would defy
them to produce another country so truly wretched. Be
acknowledged that a great part of this arose from the manner

difference consisted in moral courage.—( Hear, hear.) This
was the quality which enabled the English people to sustain
themselves under the pressure of opposing circumstances, and
gave them an inherent power to struggle successfully with all
difficulties which might obstruct them ; and he did not hesitate
to say that if the Irish people once acquired this virtue of self-
reliance they might soon hope to be running in the same race
of prosperity, to see the evils by which they were at present
surrounded completely removed. and the greatness and power of
their country permanently e. tablished.—(t heers.)
Lord BERNARD deprecated then discussing the causes
which led to the unfortunate state of things which prevailed
in Ireland at a time when, according- to the Noble Lord (the
Premier) a famine of the thirteenth cen-ury was operatirg
on a population of the nip-teenth. While they
were discussing on these points it should not be for-
gotten that thousands were passing away from time to eternity.
He read various letters which he had received from the part of
the country with which he was connected ( Bandon) to show
that the Government had not established depots at those places
at which they had promised they should be established, and
the consequences which had resulted, particularly in the south
of Ireland. Then, again, at the worst period of the famine
there was a general and disgraceful combination amongst the
corn merchants to raise the price of corn. He read voluminous
documents to show how general and how injurious this
combination had been to large numbers of sufering
people. One letter from a commissariat in Cork
he particularly referred to, illustrative of the class
of traders whom the Government seemed disposed to favour,
and reluctant to interfere with. Ile had no hesitation in
saying that the means which the Government adopted in the
autumn fell far short, and were consequently most ina-
dequate to meet the emergency, because, from the o.CeOUttts
which they were in the habit of receiving they must have shown
the full extent of the calamity which they would be called upon
to meet. The Labour-rate Act, which was passed at the end
of last session, had done much to injure the country, as farmers
and their labourers forsook their learrihti:nn the ate labour for the
purpose of labouring on the roads.
unfairly, at
t
the sessions were often conducted in clamour, and
and works were devised which were of little, and
often of no advantage, to the
They had been told by Hon. Members on ethoeuhottrlyi er—sid(enoefatrbe)
House that the calamity was not a national one, and that it was
one which it was the duty of resident landowners to have
met, without aid from the Government ; but in his opinion, if
ever there was a national calamity, that
which had affixted Ire-
land was certainly one which came within that category.
Ireland had contributed her fair share to the aggregate taxes,

in which that country was treated by England; but even if ,
that were the case, no one would deny that a remedy
could be found. And before they tr:ed to find the re-
medy, it might be well to ask what it was
that brought Ireland into the state in which
she was at present-s—nhat but the unequal loss, the unjust
ihst
oppression, and the continued strife which existed betweenthe
country gentlemen of Ireland. He (Mr. Hume) recollected_
some twenty-four years ago, that on the 12th 01 July, one half
of the country used to be arrayed against the o her half, the
rival parties marched out with banners flying, and it required
theinterference of the Government to prevent civil war.
Another grievance was, that seven-eighths of the people of
Ireland were kept in a state of oppression and degradation by
the other eighth; and he ( Mr. Hu Hume) urged the abolition of
tithes ; he was told that the Protest ant Gentlemen of Ireland
held seven-eighths of the land, that they were contented with
things as they were,,
and that they could not therefore fall into
his (Mr. Hume's) veiws. He was assured that Ireland could
never rise in the scale of nations until they removed the mon-
strous inequality that had arisen from their penal laws. They
ought to remove that dormant Church—they ought to give '
satisfaction to the people of Ireland—they ought to extend the
same civil rights to Ireland that England had, and then they
ought to tax every Irishman equally with every Englishman in
this country. He knew that these opinions were not perhaps
palatable or satisfactory to Irish gentlemen; but he knew also
that it was not satisfactory for Englishmen to provide for the
pauperism of the sister country. A passage had been quoted
from Fletcher, of Saltoun, to show the deplorable condition
of Scotland at an earlier period. But Scotland had now risen
n the scale of nations, and why should Ireland not rise in the
same manner ? But it appeared that Irish gentlemen in this
and the other House were banded together for no other pur-
pose than to get as much money out of the country as possi-
ble.—( Cries of " Ohl oh 1") Why, let them read the resolu-
tion—that was the tenor of it, and it was, therefore, for her
Majesty's Ministers to consider whether at the end of next year
Ireland would not be in a worse condition than it was now.
They should next year require eleven millions of money, and
he should like to know where it was to be got from. Let them
give the people of Ireland equal laws—let them protect capital,
and employment to the people would very soon follow.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he
had, during the whole course of this debate, in vain listened
for some suggestions or some indication by which they might
guide the course which her Majesty's Government had in-
tended to pursue, and for some valid objection to the measures
of the plan which his Nola!e Friend intended to pursue. He
had heard, it was true, several objections from his Hon. Friend
the Member for Wycombe (Mr. Osborne), and had heard
much of the evils of a dominant Church, and the mischief
of advancing capital to Ireland, but not one single objection to
the object which his Friend had in view, although he had
listened with the greatest attention. It should be recollected
that the chief object of his Noble Friend was to provide for
the necessities of the people under the awful calamity which
had beolllen Ireland, and for which, under the circum-
stances, it was so difficult to provide. He had hoped
for some intimation, for some suggestion by which the Ministry
might the better steer their course. But it was in vain, yet he
could not but congratulate the House on the feeling which had
been exhibited on all sides. He felt this question to be a most
important question ; one the importance of which could not be
exaggerated, and which had engaged the most anxious attention
of her Majesty's Government, and they were earnestly desirous of
taking that course under the circumstances, and God knows
the circumstances aresufficiently difficult, and such as were suf-
ficient to embarrass any set of men. Many objections had been
made to the course which the Government had pursued, and
accusations had been brought against them, and one Hun. Member
had criticised in his speech the proceedings under the Act of
the last ses-ion for the employment of the peor. The House
would recollect that the Act passed during that session was
for the purpose of employing the poor during the spring and
summer months in consequence of the failure of the potatoe
crop. That Act went on what was called the half and half
sysrem—that is, that one-halt of the money was to be advanced
by Government, on condition that the other half should be
contributed by the resident gentry of Ireland, and it was
expected that this outlay would bring out the expenditure of
a much larger amount of capital. And did the Hon. Member
know, that since the Ist of September, that the sum of 290,0001.
had been advanced for that purpose. It was well known that
the expenditure had been used in the payment of wages, and
that it had had the effect of raising the price of labour
in the labour market. —( Hear.) In Scotland and England
there had been a deficient harvest as well as in Ireland, but for
those two countries no outlay whatever had been made.
—( Hear, hear.) The public works on which this money
had been spent had only been stopped until a presentment
had been made from the farmers to the effect-, that the exer-
tions of the labourers were necessary to gather the harvest.
The Hon. Gentleman now told them that this measure of last
session was a baseless, ill-considered measure, and that it' had
the effect of charging real property with the support of the poor
in Ireland, and he thought that this observation was worthy of
consideration. It was arranged by the terms of that Act
that presentments should be made, and that then the Go-
vernment should advance one-half of the money, and that
the sums advanced should be charged partly on the funds ga-
thered for the maintenance of the poor, and partly on the
funds of the county session. The failure of the potatoe crop
had put a stop for a while to the public works,
but he was sorry to say for the sake of the Irish
landlords, that when it was discovered that the contributions
were to be made, two more presentments were made, and
those which had been made were withdrawn. For sake of the
absentee landlords he was bound to remark, that one absentee
landlord, Colonel Wyndham, had advanced rations to ten thou-
sand poor people daily. He was unwilling to charge the Irish
landlords with negligence, except to the extent that he thought
they ought to have interposed to prevent, or at least to
check the abuses which had been committed under the Act.
He did not wish to say anything without authority, and there.
fore he would take the liberty of drawing the attention of the
House to a report which had been received from the Board of
Works. In that report the duties of the relief committees
were clearly defined, and a contrast was drawn between those
duties and the practice of the committees. One of the duties
was to ascertain and investigate distress from week to week.
while Government had to execute the works provided by the
presentment session, and pay the labourers employed upon
these works. In practice, however, the sessions presented
works without previous local inquiry, the relief com-
mittees exercised little or no discretion in the
performance of its duties, and hence the system
had proved defective. It might have been difficult for the re-
sident gentry to perform the duties of relief committees, but
he asked any gentleman whether he thought that those duties
should be performed by an officer of engineers, whose province
it was to superintend the execution of public works, or by the
resident gentry ?-- ( Hear, hear.) It was true that there was
not the same parochial machinery in Ireland as in this country,
but when the local gentry said it was not their fault, but pro-
nounced it to be altogether the fault of the Board of Works audits
officers that the system had failed, they attempted to throw upon
that board a stigma which they did riot deserve. Nevertheless he
thought the effect of the system had been good. No doubt it
had occasioned a goad deal of expense, but when they consi-
dered that half a million of persons had to be paid, and their
labours suspended, how could it have been otherwise. When
he told the House too, by the aid of one officer in the county
of Clare, 3,000 persons were taken off the works because the)
had been improperly placed upon them by the Relief Com-
mittees, and reminded them that these duties had to be per-
formed by the officers of the Board of Works in addition to
their proper functions, he did not think it was quite
fair to throw blame upon them for the non-execu-
tion of duties which did not belong to them. Still
the effect of their efforts had tended to alleviate and prevent
distress. An enormous amount of relief had been afforded to
the people, and thousands had been prevented from dying of
starvation, and although they might regret that the money
had not been so well spent as they could have wished, they
could not but be gra ified that so much suffering had been
averted. It had been reported to Government that in some
instances it would be better to give food than work, becauss
there were some poor and destitute persons who were altogether
from age and from other causes unable to work ; and
in order to prevent such poor creatures from ac-
tually dying from starvation, it. was proposed to
give them food without allotting them work. He
wished to make a remark or two before he sat down in re-
ference to an observation which had fallen from a Noble
Lord who had taken part in the debate, with regard
to the supply of food to the people. But first, he must give
the House some idea of the distress which prevailed, and for the
purpose of doing so he would bring under the notice of the
House another report which had been made by the Board of
Works. From that report it would be seen that in
the district of Kihnow, where the total number of the
inhabitants was 7,8,10, of that number 7,000 were in a state of
destitution. He had said that the system of relief by public
works had broltm down, and they (the Government) had de-
termined to distribute food in different districts, and to enable
the local committee to distribute to a large extent cooked food
throughout the country. There were many of those relief com-
mittees in actual operation at present; and from the reports
they received, he was happy to be able to state to the House, that
from the reports which had been received from their officials
and other sources, that their efforts had been attended with
most beneficial results. It had been said that the carrying ou'
of this system had been more advantageous in its effects than
any other. It had enabled the labouring classes by the suste-
nance afforded them to go to the public works, and it would
also enable them to cultivate the soil. There had
been great exaggeration about the sowing of grain in Ireland.
A large number of the crops is that country were spring crops,
and it was therefore the more essential that immediate f
should be afforded the people to enable those who were enraged:reel
in the works of agriculture to prosecute their labour. He did
not think therefore that it would be right to adopt the sugges-
tion of the Hon. Member for Wigan. There were two great
difficulties pressing on Ireland. There was the distress,
almost unparalleled in the annals of the world, and there was
also a most important change taking place in the social
system of the people of that country. The food of
potatoes were being changed. A large portion of the people of
Ireland were maintained by potatoes grown on their own
ground, and depended upon food raised, entirely by themselves,
while they were in no measure dependent upon what they pur-
chased, supposing the potato might retain its position, but
even then it was not expected that so large a portion of the
people of Ireland would derive their sustenance from that as
hitherto. If the people of Ireland were to buy their food in
detail, there must be some people to sell them, and he believed
that there could not be a greater blessing than the establishment
of small dealers from whom they might purchase their food.
He thought that in general cases it would be highly improper
for the State to beceste a money-lender, but in the present in-
stance, and in order safely to bridge over the transition state of
the people, he thought the measure exceedingly desirable.
With reference to the proposed measure of the Government
for the reclamation of the waste lands, the object- of the
measure was very different from what it had been represented,
there were large tracts of land in the possession of mere
nominal owners, and it was these tracts which the Government
spotted to reclaim. The measure for the promotion of the
,Inres he thought would also be beneficial, although he was
:2 so sanguine upon the success of that measure as some others
Woode".--in ethsale of estates was also calculated to do much
reland was country. At all events, the subject of
eaYnest attentioto
neerrequiring the most prompt and
the part of the Government.
It behoved them etiLorward with assistance to a greater
extent, and he was sure
ntry would not be unwilling to
respond to the requirenstnetr
would be more abundant, bb: hoped that next harvest
before
ee feaHred that there would be a
great amount of suffering
period arrived. In ad-
dition, however, to she assistance svtai t
a great'edtt might be extended to
the people from this country,
ryaltwtionas tahlesoGir4ernemd of
necessary that
Irish gentlemen; and without their co-
could not hope to meet the emergency.
ent
the food should be distributed through residweraist
Rey' and it
was necessary that those best acquainted with trnaerre and
extent of the distribution should administer to its i(-'eTlie . It he
could impress upon them his own feelings with regard to the
calamity,
he
was
sure that from private and public resourcesreail
they would be able to grapple with the distress, and greatly
alleviate the sufferings of the people.—(Cheei 3 )

On the motion of an Hos. AJEMBEtt, the debate was then
adjourned.
Lord J. RUSSELL hoped the House would allow the
bate to take precedence to-morrow.
CHELSEA PENSIONERS BILL,
This Bill went through Committee.
BUCK WHEAT, &c., I3IPOR TA TION BILL.
This 13111 was read a third time and passed.
The other orders of the day having been disposed of, the
_ ,

house adjourned at a Quarter past Twelve o'clock.