The Sun.
London, England, 1840-04-09 00:00:00

COPYRIGHT BILL.

On the Order of the Day for considering this Bill,
Mr. Sergeant TA LFO URD said he should certainly
feel it his duty to postpone this Bill, in consideration of
the important adjourned debate, which had to come on.—
( Hear, hear.) But he did hope the Noble Lord (J.
Russell), considering that the Bill had been on the
paper for six weeks, and considering also the numerous
disappointments which he had experienced last session,
would consent to the appropriation of some Monday or
Friday to the discussion of it.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he did not wish to inter-
fere with the desire of the Hon. and Learned Member to
bring forward his Copyright Bill on any Wednesday he
might find convenient. He did not, however, wish that
the motion should interfere with any Government business,
or that it should be brought forward on a day devoted
to that business, as had been the case with a motion
brought forward so late as Friday last. As to the debate
that evening on China, he need not remind the Hon.
Member that it was not brought forward at his (Lord J.
Russell's) instance.--(A laugh.)
Mr. Sergeant TA L FOURD gave notice that he should
bring forward his Bill on that day fortnight.—(Laughter.)
He begged pardon, on that day three weeks.
CONSTABULARY.

On the motion of Mr. HODGE S, the second reading
of the Constabulary Bill was deferred till Wednesday, the
6th of May next.

CHINA (ADJOURNED DEBATE).
The Order of the Day for the adjourned debate on
China having been read,
Mr. HAWES rose, and said he had listened with the
greatest possible attention last night to the speech delivered
by the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Pembroke,
and undoubtedly the importance of the interest at stake,

the great ability and perspicuous arrangement of the Righ_
Hon. Gentleman, demanded, on the part of every Member
of that House, the most careful attention. The inte-
rests at stake were great indeed ; they were great
in a 'level and mercantile point of view, and also
as involving the character of this country. The Right
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh, in the course
of his reply to the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet,
separated correctly the accusations brought against the
Government into four distinct charges, and having care-
fully considered since what feel from the Right
Honourable Gentleman, he (Mr. Hawes) thought
he was correct in his division. The first charge related to
the original instructions for enforcing the residence of
Lord Napier, at Canton, for which the Right Hon.
Gentleman was himself responsible. The next related to
instructions enforcing direct communication with the
vice-regal authorities of China, for which he was also
responsible, and both of those charges were entirely dis-
posed of by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Macaulay),
both having been conceded by the Chinese Government.
The resolution of the Right Hon. Gentleman did not em-
body the two first charges, therefore he should confine
himself to the two last, namely, the want of sufficient
force in the Chinese seas, and the not having supplied an
adequate force for suppressing the contraband trade in
opium. He (Mr. Hawes) proposed to deal only with the last
charge, but would first take the liberty of noticing an
observation which fell from the Hon. Gentleman who
spoke in the debate, the Member for Wiltshire,
who claimed credit—as he (Mr. Hawes) owned to
his surprise, and that of many Hon. Members around
him, for forbearance on the part of Gentlemen opposite in
putting questions to the Government, or raising discus-
sions which were likely to be prejudicial to the public ser-
vice. He must say if ever there was an opposition in the
whole history of party which had so little right to claim
that credit, it was the opposition be had the honour to ad-
dress—( Ironical cheers)—and those cheers might pro-
bably form his authority for stating the grounds
on which he made the statement. He could not
forget the debates which had occurred in that House
on several important occasions. He would just
allude to one circumstance to justify this statement.—
( Hear, hear, hear.) They must all recollect in 1838,
the discussion which had taken place in that House on the
subject of the Spanish Auxiliary Legion. Scarcely had a
slight disaster occurred to that force when it was made the
subject of discussion in that House ; although the subject
had been mentioned distinctly in the speech from the throne
it had never been alluded to by Gentlemen opposite then.
It had never been made the subject of a discussion in that
House until the occurrence of some slight disaster ; nor
was that the only occurrence of the sort. He could not for-
get the Jamaica case. He could not forget the Jamaica
Prisons Bill, which had passed both Houses with scarcely
any opposition. The opposition of the planters of Ja-
maica had been made in that House by gentlemen opposite
a matter of party discussion and party division. In fact,
he never saw any occurrence calculated either to create
trouble or difficulty at home or abroad, but what it was
made the subject of party debate, and as regularly as from
the alterations of the barometer the observer could
foretell fair or foul weather, just so, from the occurrence
of any minute difficulty, or of any slight disaster, could be
foreseen a most severe party debato in that House.—
(Cheers.) He would now address himself to the subject
more immediately before the House. The Right Hon.
Gentleman had acknowleged distinctly his responsibility
respecting the China Act. He (Mr. Hawes) meant to
lay it down as a principle that the discussions on the con-
traband opium trade were the foundation of all these
troubles. In 1833, when the India Act was passed,
and the instructions were sent out, all the evils of
this trade were well known, and the dangers at-
tending it had been distinctly pointed out; no in-
formation had been wanting to prove the nature of the trade,
or to show its tendency to produce collision with the
Chinese authorities, and to put a stop to trade
with that country altogether. All these cir-
cumstances were as distinctly known then as they
were at present. He would refer only to one document
to show that the pernicious nature of this trade had long
since been been pointed out. In a despatch of the East
India Company, which had been laid before the House as
long back as 1831, they found this remarkable passage,
relating to the trade in opium. The Company state that
" they do not wish to increase but to lessen the use, or ra-
ther the abuse, of opium, by making the price both at
home and abroad as high possible, consistently with a
regard to the state of the markets, so as not to be
undersold by foreign powers ; and if it were possible
they would gladly prevent the use of the drug alto.
gether, but that was absolutely impracticable."
The pernicious tendency of that trade was well known
before that time; yet, notwithstanding that, it was di-
rectly encouraged first by the East India Company, and
then in Canton by the supercargoes, who, instead of
taking steps to put it down, allowed it to be car-
ried on under their sanction. Mr. Grant, in open-
ing the India Act, expressly stated that it was a
contraband trade—that it was a dangerous trade, and one
that could not continue. Now he ( Mr. Hawes) wanted tc
know, if all this information was well known, how it was
that measures were not taken by the Government of that
day to put down the trade in opium. To that trade he
(Mr. Hawes) attributed all the evils which the trade be-
tween this country and China had been suffering, and to that
he attributed all the jealousies of the Chinese. The Right
Hon. Gentleman who had brought forward the motion
was one of the Government of that day, and therefore he
must be considered as being responsible for having en-
couraged the trade in opium. The speech of the
Right Honourable Gentleman last night made
scarcely any allusion whatever to the trade
in opium, and was marked for its avoiding all
allusion to the difficulties that surrounded the question.—
( Hear.) He did not tell the Ilouse what it was his inten-
tion to do with respect to it—he did not, say that it was de-
sirable to put that trade down, but left the House in a state
of total darkness as to what his views wore. He (Mr.
Hawes) would venture to say that no one ie that House
could doubt that the Right Honourable Baronet had
ample grounds for taking the course he had done. Ile
was a member of the Government in 1833, and he knew very
well that the opium trade was a source of great revenue.
lie knew also that there was a resolution of that
House, sanctioning the trade, and that it was almost
impossible to put it down. He (Mr. Hawes) con-
tended that the mercantile interests ought not to
be treated in the manner they had been by the Right Hon.
Baronet ; they had a right to know what the intentions:of
the Right Hon. Baronet were, and what would be the
course pursued by that Cabinet, which it seemed
the Right Hon. Baronet was in hopes he, or
those with whom he acted, would be called upon to
form in consequence of the result of this motion.
The difficulties that surrounded the question were notori-
ous. Putting an end to the contraband trade in the port
of Canton would not stop the trade in opium. The trade
in opium would continue to its fullest extent—( Hear). -
and it was stated in the papers before the House that not-
withstanding all that had been done to suppress that trade,
it was now more flourishing than it was at any
former period. The Right Honourable Gentleman
was afraid to propose a distinct resolution for the purpose
of putting a stop to that trade. He challenged Hon. Gen-
tlemen opposite distinctly to state their opinions on this
subject. Would they put down that trade—could they
put it down ? It appeared to him (Mr. Hawes) that
the Chinese had sought to make the British a kind of Pre-
ventive Service, having no sort of power on their part to stop
that trade which they considered to be pernicious. The
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite was responsible for hav-
ing sanctioned and encouraged the trade, and that would
explain his silence on this most important branch of the
subject.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman
had also alluded to the conduct of Captain Elliot. He
was anxious to say one word, as to a portion of Captain
Elliot's conduct, which had been the subject of coedemna-
tion. The conduct of Captain Elliot, with reference
to the surrender of opium, had been freely canvassed.
Captain Elliot had only two courses to pursue—his first
gain, he had duty was to preserve life and property. A

two courses to pursue with respect to the opium—either to
allow it to be confiscated by the Chinese, to the utter ruin
of the British merchant, or withdraw it from the market
and seek some other place for its sale. On either
side ruin stared our merchants in the face ; and al-
though the trade was contraband, it had been car-
ried on so long, and had been participated in and
connived at by the Chinese authorities, that it had become
a large, an important, and a well-known and regulated
trade, and it was utterly impossible for Captain Elliot to
have acted up to his instructions without watching over it.
He was to watch over the trade of the port of Canton. It
was well known that the opium trade was the most im-
portant part of it, and he was justified in considering it
his duty to watch over it. The Chinese Government,
by seizing upon the persons of British merchants, putting
them in prison, seizing the opium of the parties under
threats, put themscives in the wrong, and Captain Elliot
immediately took advantage of it—put himself in his uni-
form, and put himself in confinement along with his impri-
soned fellow-countrymen. He would not give his support
to the Government in any case involving a war, unless he
thought it was absolutely necessary, but he did not think
that there would in fact be any war. It had always
been recommended by all who had visited China,
from the first time a ship of war had arrived on the coast

until the present time, that, in order to negotiate with
the Chinese with advantage, it was necessary to negotiate
backed by an imposing force. —( Hear.) In all proba-
bility, when the Chinese Government came to reflect upon
the illegal conduct of their own Commissioner, and when
they found that the British would no longer be
trifled with, he fully believed that the object of
the armament would be attained without any
war, and if this country were to he respected throughout
China and India they must now take a decisive course.
He believed he was entitled to say that all those engaged in
the trade with China were satisfied with the course pur-
sued by her Majesty's Government, inasmuch as it was
calculated to give security to their future intercourse with
it. Unless these steps had been taken, the probability
was that the trade would have been carried on
under the most painful and humiliating circumstances.
'The indignities practised upon British merchants,
the sufferings, exactions, and extortions, which had been
so flagrantly practised, were matters well-known to every
person engaged in the trade, as well as to all who had
looked through the papers to be laid upon the table—the
course taken by the supercargoes of the East India Company
was one of cringing and submission, and utterly unworthy
of the spirit and independence of this country, and it was
naturally foreseen that the appointment of a British officer
would produce some collision requiring the intervention of
an armed force ? He would give them one instance of the
conduct of these supercargoes. Mr. Pigot, an officer on
board the Scaleby Castle, having accidentally killed a
Chinese, the authorities required that he should be
surrendered to them for execution. Instead of resisting
the demand, they showed the Chinese the body of the
mate who had d;ed a few days prcviouiy, stating that it
was the body of Mr. Pigot, who had destroyed
himself from fear of the anger of the Chinese. He
read the despatch of the Resident to the Directors of
the East India Company, to show that the officer of that
great Company gave his countenance to so great a fraud.
The despatch stated that "by this expedient the Europeans
had been relieved from great difficulty and embar-
rassment, and he (the Resident) trusted that he should
not incur the blame of the Hon. Directors for having
acquiesced in it." It was impossible not to suppose that
those who were responsible for the Act of 1898, anticipated
that some collision of the same kind was likely to arise at
a future time. In fact it could not be denied that it was
impossible for the Government in Downing-street to
provide for all the contingencies that might arise in
Canton, and a great deal must be left to the discretion and
energy of the Superintendent. He referred to the state-
ments of Lord Napier, and of Sir T. Metcalfe, in proof
of this ; and in truth no fact was better known
than that our great empire in India was consolidated, and
held together by the spirit and energy of the Governor-
General acting on the spot, without waiting for the
instructions, and sometimes acting against the in-
structions, of the Board of Directors in England.
He should be sorry to give his support to the Government
if lie did not think their cause a good one. He wished to
know what was the course which Hon. Gentle-
men opposite would have pursued if they had been
situated as the present Government were ?—( Hear, hear.)
That was a question which he thought should be answered.
it had been said that the recommendations of the Duke of
Wellington should have been followed, but those recom-
mendations were that they should keep a frigate and a sloop-
of-war in sight of China, and he (Mr. Hawes) thought
that such a recommendation was not a good one. It would
alarm the jealousy of the Chinese, while it would not be
sufficient to overawe them. He wished to know what they
were to gain by the present motion ?—( Hear, hear.) It
would certainly embarrass her Majesty's Ministers ;
but he did not think it could lead to any results
of permanent value.—(Hear, hear, hear.) No mea-
sure which the Government could take would
put an end to the Opium Trade. The effect would
be only to throw it into a more desperate course.
Should the result of the present debate be that
measures were not taken to vindicate the national
honour which had been so grossly insulted—it would be
one of the greatest misfortunes that ever befell our Eastern
possessions.—( Hear.) The security of those possessions
now depended more than ever upon the energy and spirit
with which we pursued our objects. And what were the ob-
jects of the present armament ? Not aggression—not ag-
grandisement—but simply reparation for unjust, illegal,
and insulting conduct ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) This
was quite a sufficient ground for backing our negotia-
tions with a strong force which alone could secure a satis-
factory settlement.
Mr. THESIGER said ho felt anxious on presenting
himself, for the first time, to the House on a subject of
great importance. He brought nothing to the task but
the humble industry which enabled him, amidst other
engagements, to comprehend the voluminous papers
which were laid upon the table of the House,
and the earnest desire to confine himself strictly to the
point in debate, and the determination not to trespass
longer than was necessary on the attention of the House.
—(Hear, hear.) He felt the question to be one of the
most momentous importance--we were on the eve, if we
were not actually engaged in hostilities with a nation of
which we scarcely knew any thing. It was impossible,
therefore, for the utmost human sagacity to foresee the
results of such a war—it might be that by demonstration
of force upon our part we might remove hostile disposi-
tions which had broken out against us, and might restore
ourselves to that fruitful field of commercial enterprise we
previously enjoyed. It might be the empire with which
we were engaged, having resources of which we could
form no possible conjecture, might be enabled to defeat
all our attempts, and that the issue of this struggle might
be not only the loss of a trade of vast importance to the
whole empire, but that that loss might be, aggravated by
national defeat and dishonour—it was becoming the wisdom
of the House to stop upon the threshold of this war, and
inquire whether it was owing to inevitable circumstances.
and beyond the reach of human control, or whether it has
been the result of a course of policy, neglecting the im-
portant interests of the country, and casting degradation
upon those entrusted with the Administration of such im-
portant duties, and it was in vain the Hon. Member for
Lambeth charged this motion as emanating from the
spirit of party—( Cheers and counter-cheers)—opposed as
they were to the policy which dictated all the measures of
the present Government, it was easy to impute this to all
the efforts they might make to expose their inefficiency ;
but the country were not to be deceived, nor they deterred
from the discharge of their duty by any such charge as that,
and he (Mr. Thesiger) for one was not afraid to express
his honest conviction, that whatever were the result of this
inquiry, the nation at large were deeply indebted to the
Right Hon. Baronet who had originated it.—(Cheers.)
The Hon. Members on the other side of the House were
pleased to cavil with the terms of this motion ; it would be
difficult to make any such motion agreeable to them.—
He hardly knew how it could be so framed, but they had
undoubtedly the most remarkable charges preferred with
regard to the terms in which the motion was prefaced.
The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Edinburgh,
had stated last night that he objected to the motion be-
cause it was retrospective; the lion. Member for Wiltshire,
had disposed of that objection in a sentence, by demon-
strating the difficulty that existed of making any censure
prospective.—( A laugh.) They wanted the foresight of
the:Noble Lord, the Secretary of State for Foreign Af-
fairs, to ascertain what would be the future policy of the
Government, and they possessed too much of his caution to
hazard themselves by making any attempts at guessing.
The Right Hon. Gentleman also took great credit for
the Government, because he said this motion only charged
them with sins of omission. Now, the Right lion. Gentle-
man must forgive him for saying that he seemed to entertain
extraordinary notions of the duty of a Minister if he con-
sidered that a charge of omission or charge of neglect of
duty, was by any means a light one.—( Cheers.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman complained that they only charged
the Government with that which they could prove, aad
this was the sum and substance of his objections. The
Right lion. Baronet, the Member for Portsmouth, had
brought forward other objections in aid of her Majesty's
Government. He said, he objected to the motion because
lit did not go sufficiently far to satisfy him. They did not
say if they objected to the war or not, and though all the
tenour of his observations might be against the Govern-
ment, yet he would give that Government his vote in con-
sequence of the terms of the motion. The Right Hon.
Baronet did not, he feared, apprehend rightly the position
in which the Government was placed. It might happen
that at this moment the war was a necessary war, but the
question they meant to submit to the House was whether
the country had net been involved in that war un-
necessarily—(Clicers)— and it was a matter of no im-
portance to the present question whether the war
was a necessary war or not.-_( Cheers from the Ministerial
benches.) He would not shrink from expressing his
opinion on that subject in the course of the debate should
it become necessary, but he was now replying merely
to the observations of the Right Hon. Baronet the Mem-
ber for Portsmouth. This Right Hon. Gentleman said
he objected to the motion on another ground—that they
had not told the country, when, finding fault with the con-
duct of the Government, what course they themselves
would have adopted. _ (Cheers from the Ministerial
benches.) Now that was the first time that he had ever
heard it was necessary when a charge was made to state
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(Cheers.) Ile was at a loss to know if we were at war
with the Chinese or not. There was no usual form to
intimate that—there was no message from her Majesty
brought down by any Noble Lord belonging to the
Ministry to tell the House whether there was a declaration
of war or not. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member
for Edinburgh, last night had praised the war and praised.
1 the glorious position of England. The Hon. Baronet the
Mentbsr for Portsmouth, did not think there was a was,
and all lie looked to was fair and reasonable proporetions,
backed by a competent force ; and the lion. Member

EVENING EDI lON.

for Lambeth had said that he did not believe they

were in a state of war at all. He (Mr. Thesiger)
therefore was at a loss to know how the Right Hon. Baronet
the Member for Pembroke could have conceived a motion

which would meet the views of all.—(Hear, hear.)
He would pass from this to the immediate subject before
the House, confining himself strictly to the point in de•
bate. This was not a question that was to be decided by
strong language, for if it had been the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman the Member for EdinburJi would have swept all
opposition before him.--( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Thcsi-
ger) last night followed him in his lofty flight and looked
on with wonder and admiration.—( Hear, hear.) But he
must now descend to the humbler duty of examining the
facts and documents before the House, and endeavour by
that examination to ascertain whether the motion which had

been made by the Right Hon. Bart. was well founded or not.
It was useful in considering this question to strip it of all
matters that were irrelevant, and it was his intention, as
far as lay in his power, o do so. There could be no doubt

that this country had for two centuries been engaged in a
very beneficial trade with China. That trade had been
accompanied with certain restrictions, which were now
perfectly understood by Hon. Members. The restrictions
were the prevention of permanent residence in Canton, and
that which required communication not through the Viceroy
but through the Hong merchants. There could be no
doubt that it was perfectly competent for the Chinese to
impose any restrictions upon their trade, it was equally-
competent to this country to refuse to trade with them under
these restrictions ; but if this country did deal with them,
knowing these restrictions, she had no right to refuse, to
adopt them. In 1834 the exclusive privilege of the
Eat
India Company was done away with, and he (Mr. Thesi-
ger) could not conceive anything more likely to excite the
suspicion and jealousy of such a peculiar people as the
Chinese were known to be, than that the course of dealing
which had existed for so long a period should come to an
end. It appeared that they regarded it with jealousy, and
they decided that some persons should be appointed like
the East India supercargoes. Now it was important that
the House should bear in mind the mode in which the su-
percargoes acted with regard to residents at Canton. They
did not permanently reside at Canton—they resided first
at Macao and then at Canton, having a permit granted to
remove from either place. In this state of things the Act
of the 3d and 4th Win. IV. passed, providing for the ter-
mination of the East India Company's monopoly in 1834, and
substituting for the old supercargoes three Superintendents.,
whose powers were to be defined by Orders in Council.
Accordingly, in 1833, the first Order in Council was is-
sued, giving to the Superintendents the same power as had
been given to the supercargoes. Now, with respect to that
Order in Council he believed his Hon. and Learned
Friend the Member for Exeter had clearly shown last
night that it gave no power at all, because whatever power
the supercargoes had, had terminated, and the authority
of the Superintendents therefore was good for nothing. In
order to remedy the defects in the Order in Council, two
letters were sent, one under the sign manual and another
from the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. In those
letters two capital mistakes were committed, which, ac-
cording to his view, led in a considerable degree to the
unfortunate position in which this country was placed with
regard to the trade with China. He alluded, in the first
place, to the directions to Lord Napier to communicate
his arrival to the Viceroy, and, secondly, to the order
to take up his residence at Canton. Lord Napier sank
under the vexation that he brought upon himself, by at-
tempting to run counter to the usages of the Chinese.
Through the whole of this despatch there was not one word
of sympathy or regret for his fate, and the grave wasipermitted
to close over him silently, and without observation, although
the Noble Lord's attention was particularly drawn to the
unfortunate situation in which affairs were kft.—(flesr'
hear.) The Learned Gentleman then went on to state
that under Mr. Davis and Sir George Robinson the trade
had gone on for some time in its ordinary current, but
they must have felt great anxiety to receive instructions•.
and in January 1835 they were answered by a despatch et
the Duke of Wellington'; and the Right Hon. Member for
Edinburgh; had last night relied upon that despatch, be-
cause it referred to the former instructions which Lord Na'
pier had received. But those instructions were utterly et
variance with the course recommended by the Noble Lord
The instructions recommended a respect for the prejudices
and usages of the Chinese. Yet the Noble Lord had re-
commended Lord Napier to reside at Canton.—( Hew.'
hear.) The Learned Gentleman then went on to quote
from the documents repeated
.applications from Sir
George Robinson and Mr. Davis for further instructions,
in the absence of which they were forced to remain quies-
cent, fortunately without any disadvantage.—( Hear, bear,
from the Ministerial benches.) But such a state m,
things ought not to be allowed.--( Hear, hear, bear')
Well, now to come to the earnest and the anxious
attention which was paid by the Noble Lord to Chinese
affairs.—(Hear,l hear.) On the 28th of May, 1836, the.
Noble Lord wrote a dispatch in which all that was stated
was, that the Government approved of the proposal which
had been made in December, 1835, :to extend the jurisdi.c-
tion of the Commission to Lintin and Macao; but the
fact was that the Commission had no power whateverre;
(Hear, hear.) The Commission had never had its powers
defined—( Hear, hear)—and the Noble Lord, who ought
to have known this, actually directed the extension ed:
powers which had no existence._( Hear, hear.) It scenic self
however, that the Noble Lord had quite exhausted him!ce_,
by this short effort of official energy—(Loud iron!.a!
cries of " Hear," from the Ministerial benches, ansvrerednY
cheers from the Opposition)—and sank back into
ac-
customed his
lethargy—( Renewed cries of a similar net"
reed
peated
is 36,
and the next dispatch of any importance, after rePe
letters from Sir George Robinson, was dated June 7, his
and related to the Superintendent's having taken up
residence at Lintin, and was sufficiently unintelligible.
(A laugh)—for the Noble Lord could not tell whether It
was right, and could not tell whether it was wrong--( Hear
and a laugh)—but, however, the Noble Lord finished bi
removing Sir G. Robinson from a situation which he had
filled without any complaint, and after fourteen years' ex-
perience.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON—It was abolished.
Mr. THESIGER—Then pray what is Captain Elliot ?
Does he not address the Noble Lord as Chief Superin-
tendent?—( Hear.) But the fact was Sir George Robin-
son was abolished, and not the office. —( Hear and a laughs)
Lord PALMERSTON-6,0004 a year was abolished'
—(Ministerial cheers.)
Mr. THE SIG E R—Then as the Noble Lord interrupt?me, perhaps he will state what Capt. Elliot receives naw
Lord PALMERSTON-3,0001. a year.—(Ministerial
cheers.)
Mr. THE SIGER—But does that at all affect the 00,5
ment ?—( Hear.) lam stating this that the Noble Lo'l
dismissed an experienced and able public servant froma.'d
office which, though altered, was yet virtually retained, a
the Noble Lord dismissed hint without one word of grati-
tude for past services. Capt. Elliot was appointed to
situation. Now Capt. Elliot had drawn the Noble Lorti!ea
a.
attention to a most important transaction respecti% by
steam-boat, the Jardine, which had been denounce ,1.
the provincial authorities, and which Captain
river,_P
liot had directed not to proceed up the e
What was the answer which he had received in cons
quence of interference on this occasion? One would ba!e
thought that something might have been left to the discr 'n
tion of the officer who was residing on the spot; but .:
Noble Lord, in his third despatch, rebuked him for in-
tion
terfering with the enterprizes of merchants in that Way,ahnat
told him he was not to assume an authority beyond
with which he was invested. Now what was the autuot
rity with which he was invested ? Was he or was be lib,
Chief Superintendent, and if he was, could anythintigtho_
conceived as coming more within the scope of his The
rity than the preventing a vessel under the ban of the The
pire from proceeding up the river ?—( Cheers) bad
Right Hon. Member for Edinburgh, last night,
on
stated that one of the charges made by this Mar tlije
against the Noble Lord was the attempt on the part 01
per
Superintendent to force from the Chinese authorities
to reside at Canton; and the Right Hon. Gen for
man had stated that this charge fell to the group°, Go-
that that point had been conceded by the Chinese be.
vernraent. No doubt the Right Hon. Gentleman n
lieved that that was the result of the numerous edicts o
this subject ; but he must correct that idea, and anY psd
eon who read the edict would see that nothing more his
been conceded to Captain Elliot, with regard t° had
taking up his permanent residence at Canton than
r_
been previously conceded to the old supereast
goes.—( Hear.) The edict, which will be feanu,i, ft
page 194—speaking of the Superintendent—says
ed
.i
is therefore our imperial pleasure, that he be pc:alitti_
to repair to Canton, under the existing regulations aPPtil'a
cable to chief-supercargoes, and that on his arrival at merit
provincial capital he be allowed to take the managem .
f Cue
of affairs. For this purpose, the Superintendent es,
oil,
toms is hereby commanded to grant him a 13', gme-
In future he is to reside sometimes at Macao and
latioas;
times at Canton, conforming herein to the old renu r time,
and he must not be permitted to exceed the resi-
and by loitering abcut, gradually effect a continued
most
donee." The Right lion. Member for Edinburgh had,aptain
probably not read that edict, but only the letter Of ;audio-
Elliot, which induced him to believe that the 100.,,inton;
ritics had consented to his permanent residence in "t„to iri
therefore this question was in precisely the same 5 `i the
Member for Pembroke. The Right Hon.
which it had been left by the Right Hon.
Gentlem` t
said
)savories was
had been conceded,
also mistaken in respect to the other point, which he't
corn'
attention of the Hourset7teocttirhige ihr e;ai
f the
municetion with the Viceroy. It was necessary to ed been
taliteteqmtipetsstio%sn,hoicf
en
made to accomplish this object, and which had failedLaSe-
tirely through the interference of the Noble LordT
eretary for Foreign Affairs. Captain Elliot leadalar
menccd overtures to the local authorities, in the
Ira Com-
mode pursued by the supercargoes of the East Ind'
and by
pany. Ile addressed them in the form 01. petitionihe
loea.
reason of addressing them in that humble formOrd Napier,
authorities, who, from the period of the death of L.
,;tiverintea-
had held no communication with the English through
Ellin" b c
dents, opened a communication with Captain Noble
the ordinary channels of the Hong merchants. . coe-
Lord, however, instructed him to act differently crown
sidered unit it was deroeatory to the dignity ei tu_rhants,
to commate indirectly through thc Hong new, a
ncti.
or to address the local authorities in the forT
_d rsent
firmer. On the POI of June, 1837, the Nob! form nage
a dispatch to Captain Elliot, which would be found ave
149, which contained the following passage etch, Y"
this dispa rov
now to desire that, upon the receipt of •
and
Nice
will forthwith inform the Hong merchants an
that his Majesty's Government cannot permit withuns an
officer of his Majesty, should hold communica
.e._rvuution
officer of the Emperor of China, through thoeuivcrili, there-
of private and irresponsible individuals. 1
the Govertior
fore, request that any communications which sent to et.l
make to you iii future, may be reee''
may have to ill,.
to • g
direct ; arid that the Governor will consent
üblie affairs
directly from you any communications en p
if
which the interests of the. two Governments mal at if in
you to make to him. You will also explain, d
, tovlorie-
future your written communications should not toe dinate
with the character which is usually adopted by sushor supra
in China when addressing representationartisc from
rior Chinese authorities, this alteration will not
GOvern°r'
any want of respect oil your part towards th'
usages
but will simply be the result of the establisheeter
cow.,
of England, which do net admit that an ollio
„idi.ess
inissioned by the King of England should

,YEN LNG EDITION.

-___
.._

an Officer commissioned by any other Sovereign." opium.---S Hear, hear.) They had first appealed to the Su-
Now the Noble Lord kikew as far back as June 1835, that , perintendent, who had told them that he had no powers on the
there was great danger, unless that form of address were ' subject. They were a simple unsophisticated people; but
adopted, that the statement would not reach the authori- I they could not believe that the Noble Lord, or any Go-
th,'s. Yet the Noble Lord prevented Captain Elliot from vernment, would send out a Superintendent for the pur-
aauntohpotirnitgies.
the only mode in his power of reaching the local pose of controlling and regulating trade, and yet give him
Captain Elliot, however, disregarded this in- no power whatever to act.—( Opposition cheers.) They
struction. Ha humoured the foibles of the local authori- did not believe that, and they therefore pursued the course
ties, and the consequence was that he obtained important to which foreigners are exposed in China, and which had
concessions from them. They conceded the right of direct been adopted over and over again before. They put the
communication with the Government, and they afterwards Superintendent under restraint—or rather he put himself
by
yranted him permission to correspond with officers of rank, under restraint. He came to Canton, and being there,
Nobl sealed letters, but this only lasted till the despatch of the they blockaded him and prevented him from from going
address, Lord, whose mind seemed horrified at this mode of away. What was the consequence ? He sent a request
, which directed Capt. Elliott to abstaii from using to the opium dealers to deliver up all the opium in their
'la and to adopt another mode of address ; the consequence possession, and the request was complied with. Ought
struck
that the address was rejected, the Superintendent not that in the eyes of the Chinese to have justified the
the his flag at Canton, returned to Macao, and ' course they pursued ? How could they believe that the
e 6, trade was interrupted by this Paltry point of Superintendent had not powers which he himself had exer-
az_
net, The Noble Lord approved of his con_ cised ? While that Superintendent was at liberty they got
-" and directed him to endeavour to obtain some nothing ; but the moment they put him under restraint,
less objectionable mode of communication. Nothing fur_ the whole of the opium was given up without
..herota was done until the unfortunate opium question broke the slightest objection. He thought that those
for, when Captain Elliot found it necossarY to adopt the circumstances perfectly accounted for the course which
and communication to which the Noble Lord objected, the Chinese Government had pursued.—( Hear, hear.)
aoth 'n
Consequence of that obtained leave from the local Ile would not follow up the observations made by an Hon.
House
to return to Canton. He would now ask the Member on his side of the House, on the fact of hostilities
out, if the first part of the charge had not been made having been occasioned by an act of oppression. on the
• ' namely that no power or instructions had been part of the Chinese. There was no doubt but this people
the
adapted to the novel and difficult situation in which had been guilty of acts of cruelty, but these acts had been
could Superintendent was placed ? If any Hon. Member greatly exaggerated, and there was no proof that they
find any despatch conveying information or instrue- could be attributed to the Chinese Government. The
etiosndoe that important subject, then he would say that a fact, however, was, that we were now plunged in a war,
information
had been made out a"ainst the motion ; but no such the issue of which it would be impossible to forsee. The
iralormation was to he found in these scanty and House knew that the expenses attending it would be enor-
Heaegre despatches—he used the words of the Right moue, and that, in the present state of the revenue of this
There
Member for Edinburgh.—( Loud cheers.) country, it would be a most calamitous circumstance to add
sus • e was nothing in them to afford the least to its burdens by the expenses of even a necessary war.
~
etlfication of the Noble Lord, nor any thing to induce He should say that the war was not a necessary one, be-
t", House to believe that he had bestowed that attention cause it had been brought about by a series of incautious,
sQ the affairs of China which he was bound to do impolitic, and negligent measures on the part of her Ma-
from Government ; and when they asked what policy
Member
the situation he held. He agreed with the Hon. .i
and
for Edinburgh, that when a Government of power Hon. Members on his side would pursue, and when they
wasauthority was established at a distance from home, it were told to point out a different course from that of the
cua,s not desirable to be interfering in every minute parti- Noble Lord, the answer was, that they would have adopted
ex'ar, but to leave much to the discretion of the person a totally diff.'rent line of proceeding, and that they would
e.ereising that authority. Such, however, was not the have given to the Superintendent's precise and definite in-
i.:_e---there was a necessity for at least a communication of structions ; they would have enabled them to act with full
avi:_ers, and some definition of them ought to have been authority on every subject connected with our China trade,
give There. was no analogy whatever between the and they would, he believed, by those means have pre-
tern, This power had been created in 1833, and the vented a fatal war—fatal, he had a right to call it, for
the terms by it was created were so general, that we find it would be felt from one extreme of society to the other,
tins
.11perintendent repeatedly urging that some ex lava- and it would press on the highest as well as the lowest
witusshould be given of his powers. Instead of complying classes of this country. He felt so satisfied that by the
Buect" this request, the Noble Lord in this particular pur_ evidence before the House the motion made by his
his darling system of non.intervention, and he Right Hon. Friend was supported in every respect that
ao neither gave the Superintendent instructions how to act, he did not hesitate to give that motion his entire and un-
rii "I's to act, or counsel or advice on the subject. qualified support.--( Cheers.)
b e now came to the opium question, respecting which Sir G. STAUNTON wished to offer a few words in
the could not find one word or any sort of instruction from explanation of some allusions made to a speech of his
~.," Noble Lord, only a mere allusion in a letter sent to by the Honourable and Learned Member who had
t'aPtain Elliot, answering that which he never dc- just sat down. The grounds of his opposing the
1 manded, which he could not be supposed to be particu- motion of the Right Honourable Baronet opposite were
well without
anxious to ascertain, and which he knew perfectly that he could not trace any connection between the present
ee"' without the Noble Lord, that the Government would rupture with China and any act of commission or omis-
Cafford facilities to enable smugglers to violate the sion of the Noble Lord.—( Hear, hear, from the Opposi-
Pof other countries. Now, it seemed quite clear that tion benches.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had
iCaptain Elliot had been on a friendly footing with the misunderstood him with regard to his connections with the
:54,1 authorities of the country, he might, by co-operating Chinese Government. He did not object to the law as
Kith those authorities, have succeeded in putting down the laid down by Commissioner Lin, but what he objected to
opj,
in trade ; but the Noble Lord's pertinacity respecting was, that the law should have been allowed to have a re-
.o, l
re-
the mode of address prevented the only chance there was trospectivo effect, and should have been applied to persons ,
accomplishing that most important object. In a re- who had come to China under the faith of former cus-
tri-
erLable letter of Sir Geo. Robinson, that gentleman toms. He believed that for the last 200 years, there was
stated that if he could procure the authority of the Govern- no instance of the Act having been enforced.
..I ent he could immediately stop the traffic in opium. Was Mr. C. BULLER said that the Hon. and Learned
that true or not ? Member opposite had stated that the whole of our present
,Tr, J. HOBHOUSE—No. difficulties in China were to be traced to the instructions
Ir. THESIGER—How could they know, unless the given to Lord Napier, at a time when the Right Hon.
experiment had been tried ? Baronet opposite had been a member of the Government.
Sir JOHN HOBHOUSE—Look at p. 120. Sir JAMES GRAHAM—That was six years ago.
'lr. THESIGER—At p. 120 Sir George Robinson Mr. CHARLES BULLER—That was six years ago;
sa3111" Whenever her Majesty's Government direct us to but it had been said that those instructions were the origin
pre.vent British vessels engaging in the traffic, we can of all the evils now complained of, and a censure was thus
_nu
" t rce any order to that effect.e,..-(Opposition cheers.) cast on the Right Hon. Baronet by his Hon. and Learned
aSir. J. HOBHOUSE—Go on. Friend.—( Hear, hear.) He hopedthe Duke of Wellington
,u,',lr. THESIGER (after a pause, and in a somewhat had also some friends in that House who would defend him
Prohibit
tone)...._. But a more certain method would be to against the charge of gross negligence.—( Hear, hear, and
Opium,
the growth of the Poppy, and manufacture of a laugh.) It had been said that for seventeen months no
te in British India."—( Immense cheering and laugh- despatch had been sent to China except one by the Duke
" from the Ministerial benches.) Certainly, if no opium of Wellington, but that despatch merely said, " look back
were A
made there could be no smuggling, and therefore the to the despatches of Lord Palmerston." He did not object
most effectual method would be to destroy all the poppies. to the praises bestowed on the Duke of Wellington, but
Slit. J. HOB HOUSE— In British India!—(A laugh.) it should be recollected that the Noble Duke was in office,
Ar• THESIGER thought the Right Hon. Baronet at the time of the proceedings relating to Lord
s Ras not justified in interrupting him.
p Sir George Robin. Napier. It had been said that no sympathy had been
S,e
son certainly expressed an opinion that he couldut down shown at the death of the Noble Lord, but it should be re-
(' traffic by British shiPs, if authorised to do so ; and he collected that that sympathy should have come from the
thought,,e that some experiment ought to have been made. Duke of Wellington, as he was in office when that eventof
of Captain
Hon. Member for Edinburgh had alluded to a letter had occurred. For his part, he believed that the. Duke
rs
' Captain Elliot's, in which he stated that he thought Wellington had acted wisely, and he w_isheodrdthNta oitehreto
there; was some intention on the Part of the Chinese Go- had imitated his example, mild allowed L
He had oneP hint
Ras
to legalize the traffic in opium. That letter sleep undisturbedhis inhisFuLtnimdetlylegrave.
Member for Woodstock,
7,as received 22d August, 1837 ; but in 1838 all hopes of to offer to
was Learnedthis thatt when he threw imputations on
IT': sort must have vanished, as four strong edicts were and
Honoultrable Members— on that side of the House,
2n.111. issued on the subject, which would be found at page
,'I , and at page 247 we find Captain Elliot declaring he should studynith.e character. of individuals,
,_the trade '
is eroceeding tranquilly for the present, but and not throw out imputations of lethargy against
the vast opiumldeliveries- at Whampoa. under extremely the
.Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs.
Nothing could be more preposterous than such a charge,
hazardous circumstances, may certainly at any moment
produce some grave dilemma." He went on to state in and the Noble Lord was the last person against whom it
his
letter of the sth February, 1838, that the regular could be directed, as his fault certainly was not that of not
trade had been stopped in consequence of the traffic in doing enough.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had been
°Plum • and then they came to the memorable despatch of charged with sins of omission, and when they come for-
the Noble Lord of the 15th June, 1838, in which, for the first ward they omit to state what he had omitted to do.—
and last time any mention is made of the opium trade at all. ( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Buller) agreed with Hon. Mem-
',rita there anything, he would ask, in any one of those bers opposite in thinking that the question before the
atlnespatches, directly to the purport? Was it not the House was one of the greatest importance, and he believed
.verx.niomus and earnest desire of Captain Elliot that Go- that the decisions of the Government would involve inte-
( Hear
enhteshould point out the course he should follow.— rests of the utmost magnitude, and that questions of great
atnutohpoiruintty:wlhich Did he not request to be armed with some difficulty and delicacy would arise, because we were en-
might enable him to stop the illegal traffic tered on a crisis the termination of which would determine
assuming so hear.)dange,rmis ( llear, H stated that the trade was whether we were to lose our trade with China, or whether
an appearance, that some interpo- we might make our present position the means of establishing
sition on
his part necessary.
was On the Bth of Dec. that trade on a better footing than it had ever existed
nti he me 1838,
, oned the seizure of the opium, and he stated before. He had certainly fears and doubts as to the results
that the
Hong merchants had discontinued the trade by of the hostilities in which we were now engaged. We
order. On the 13th of December, he stated, that the know so little of the Chinese people that we cannot cal-
execution which the foreigners in the country endeavoured culate with any probability on the results of the course we
to., prevent had at length taken place. He wished to draw are about to pursue. China may offer us a greater resist-
Viaattention of the House to the despatch of the Noble ance than we ever had expected, or she might fall under
Lord in answer to that most imortant critical communication our attacks, and thus render us masters of half of the entire
--why, the Noble Lord on receiving a most important des- human race. Such a circumstance would awaken the jea-
Patch from a person confidently employed by him merely lousy of other nations, and might be attended with most
refers that person to the newspapers. A more extraordinary dangerous results. Considering the magnitude of the in-
Course of proceeding than that could not in his ( Mr. Thesi- terests at stake, he certainly did not think that Hon. Gen-
ger's) opinion be imagined. It was at that 'period that tlemen opposite were pursuing a wise and judicious
Captain Elliot found it necessary to break through the re- course. He did not complain of Honourable Members
gulations of the Noble Lord, and t° adot that particular offering their views on such a subject, but he corn-
style of communication with the Chinese authorities, to plained of their having made use of it for the pur-
I.hich he had before so strongly and repeatedly objected. poses of party animosity and aggrandisement.—( Hear.)
to was then that he proceeded to Canton, where he had The Right Hon. Baronet had worded his resolution with
.?eact on his own discretion without any instructions from great skill, and so as to catch the greatest number of
t_O Foreign Office. It appeared that at that time he corn- votes, by committing those who voted with him as little
of to the Noble Lord his expectation of the arrival as possible. He was aware there was a large number of
uolf a person, armed with very great powers, for the purpose persons averse to the opium trade, and to a war in any
suPPressing the trade in opium. All this, however, had degree connected with it. That he was aware also of a
notawakened the Noble Lord, and there was still no large mercantile interest who thought the Government
himattention paid to the repeated communications made to ought to have recourse to strong measures for securing
,sr on the subject. It would not be necessary for him indemnity for the past, and putting trade on a secure foot-
\'l. Thesiger) to enter minutely into the circumstances ing. The Right Hon. Gentleman, to swell his division
Which attended the presence of Commissioner Lin in as much as possible, had excluded all expression of opi-
Canton. That Commissioner had merely executed the nion respecting the opium trade as to the measures
ay orders of his Government, and the result was the seizure of adopted by the Chinese Government as to the seizure of
thsatst quantity of opium. He (Mr. Thesiger) believed opium, and as to the measures circumstances ren-
14' the proceedings to which he referred, had dered it incumbent on the Government to adopt. Then,
I
o .tct the hostilities which ensued, and to the was he wrong in saying the Right lion. Gentleman had
It sifion in which this country is now unfortunately placed, reduced this to a party subject, the discussion of
sled been said by the Right Hon. Member for Ports- which could have no practical bearing on the settlement
youth that he was disposed to vote against the motion of of this question, hecause it was in fact but a repetition of
y
is (Mr. Thesigcr's) Right Hon. Friend, in consequence the " No-confidence" motion of his Right Hon. Friend
of the course pursued by the Chinese Government, with near him ? He (Mr. C. Buller) was far from dissenting
peg
to the opium trade. The Right Hon. Baronet from the doctrine laid down by the lion. Member for
`_iaa.d. said that thereahad been so long a forbearance on the Wiltshire, with this qualification, that when they had de-
!, hject on the part of China that the persons engaged in termined on the policy which ought to be pursued, it was
the trade migh
t consider it equivalent to a permission. Ile then matter worthy of inquiry, whether her Majesty's Mi-
had
stated, in addition that very great cruelty had been nistcrs might have foreseen what bad occurred, arid bs
practised by High Commissioner Lin, and that the u- the timely interposition of proper policy have avoided the
_I
' ishment of death had never before been resorted to with evils resulting from it ; but then it seemed to him that
respect to the traffic in opium, and that, therefore, he, those who brought forward these charges ought to state
for one, would not sanction such proceedings, and that he what measures would have avoided those evils—nothing
was prepared to express his disapprobation of them by was so easy as this retrospective foresight—the phrase
voting against the motion before the House. He (,Mr. was a bold innovation, but he must either use it or coin a
Thesiger) should say, however, that he did not see any new one and say back-sight.—( Laughter.) Nothing was
marks of vaccilation on the part of the Chinese Govern- more easy than to warn us of dangers which had been in-
n-lent, as bad been stated. He did not see anything in the curred, but with all this ex post facto foresight what use
proceedings of the Chinese Emperor which would indicate did the Right Hon. Baronet make of it? There was great
a determination on his part not to put an end to the trade difference between foresight and precaution, between saying
in question. Down to the time of the appointment of the what would happen and what would prevent it happening ;
High Commissioner, he found that the attention of the and when the Right lion. Baronet charged the Govern-
Emperor had been directed to the subject, and he found ment with want of foresight for not having done what they
him receiving the reports and acting upon them. The ought, lie ought to have said what he would have done had
'mPeror had reason to believe that the orders he had sent lie been in their places ; hut neither the Right lion. Baronet
to Canton would be faithfully obeyed, and it was not till nor any other Gentleman had done this. If they wanted
his attention had been awakened to the subject, that he to put before the House the difference between the vigour,
se"t a Commissioner armed with plenipotential powers, capacity, arid far-seeing views of the Right lion. Baronet
toii, put a stop to the opium traffic. Was there anything and the Government, he would suggest the fair way would
'al', vaccination in that ? or was there any of that cruelty be for the Right Hon. Baronet to lay upon the table, as a
for
had deterred the Right Hon. Baronet from voting contrast to the despatches of the Noble Lord, copies of all
toss the motion before the House? It was on the cruelty despatches he would have written to Captain Elliot,
many
tsentencing persons engaged in the trade to death, that if he had been Secretary of State for the Foreign
founded, Ha (Mr. Thesiger) could see nothing, how- much of gentlemen opposite in their voluntary patriotism,
ever, to justify those observations, and he confessed that, he did say for every act they complained of the Noble
though he did not approve of extreme punishments being Lord for doing, they should say precisely what he eught
41,Plied to trifling offences, he felt it fair to take into to have done. They talked loudly of " powers and in-
"eesaunt that we were dealing with a people whom we called structions," but what these should have been he believed
b.drbarians, and he thought they should be allowed to no one knew, not even themselves. Now, perhaps, the
execute their own laws in their own way, and without any House would excuse him, if before adverting to the prin-
interference on the part of others.—( Hear, hear.) The cipal inferences thrown out by gentlemen opposite, he
Right Hon, Member for Edinburgh had asked of Mere_ ventured to give his own conclusion on the papers laid on
hers on his ( Mr. Thesiger's) side of the House, what they the table of the 113113 e after an attentive examination of
would do with regard to the opium traffic. It was them, and all publications connected with the subject.
asked whether they would suppress it in the Port of His Hon. and Learned Friend, the Member for Exeter,
Canton, and it had been said that it' they did so, it would had been guilty of great cruelty towards him, in conse-
apread itself over the adjoining coasts, and would lead to quince of some expression of his opinion during the speech
an extensive system et* piracy. But he would ask if of his lion, and Learned Friend, putting on a look of
that were a reason why illicit traffic should not be sup_ suspicion. He should " just read the papers over again."
pressed, and if they should allow it to continue because Now the cruelty of that his Honourable and Learned
some contingent evils might follow from its extinction ? Friend could
Was it gnot possibly have known, because
Canton, he
t . any argument against the trade at that (Mr. Charles Buller) happened to have read
Ith might take place elsewhere, if it had been suppressed them three times over. Now the conclusion to which
,_ e,re.—( llear, hear.) He really could not bring himself he had come was actually the contrary of that of the Right
sioutibelieve that there could be any fair and dispassionate
tHi on. Baronet. It appeared to him no human sagacity on
° ton the point submitted to the consideration of the , the part of- the Government could have the
prevented
Flouee f 1 inevitable cons
,_, as to a want of caution livingoresi on the part o , , equences of the sinposito in which the China
her alajesty'a advisers in not '
a,np cI • instructions to trade stood. Ile could, however, •
their S y impute to them one
-upertntendents, in order to enable them to suppress merit, that of not making matters worse
the illicit than they were
made h , events over '
traffic in opium, and adapt it to the novel and de-
ou_ _
no) which they had no control, but he
licatePosition in which ld t find an )ortant '
the
.e.
.absence of these clear and definite instructions lead to Lord, by acting ch&rently, could have brought about
'La difficulties in which we were now engaged.—(Hear, more desirable results than those which had occurred.
near.) Tappeared to him were faults
blued he absence of these definite instructions, com- It there , on both sides, for
with the unfortunate dererrrination of the Noble he was not one of those who thought the Chinese wholly
Lora in press'the - • . . ' fault, but our faults appeared to be faults ofY
me.cat. press in on Su a mode of corn- in
of. . the whole
um ion, were, in his opinion, the source of our presentlpolicy,andthe footing
system national
ernharrassine
about . nts. He would ask, if the war we were now put the trade. in 1833. ,
He felt the greatest regret
(El ia to be engaged in was a ust
. and a proper one ? at the ,
want of information exhibited by almost every body
jar, hew' ) He was not afraidthis subject, but there had been this justice done in the
He ..to meet that question. on
would say that the Chinese a th ' 'the debate, that we no longer spoke of the Cu,.
justified, according u orities were perfectly course of .
had to their own usages, in the course they nese in the depreciating manner we had been accustomed
adopted with regard to the unexpected delivery of We hadgot far us to admit that our conduct
the to do. so .

had been such as to inspire the Chinese with fear of our
aggressive designs. We-had at last come to the conclu-
sion, that the fate of mighty dynasties in the East was not
an occurrence of every day. The Chinese Emperor knew
that a company of British merchants had besought of
Aurungzebe that be would allow them to establish a factory
in a part of that empire, and that the descendants of that
Monarch were now the pensioners of the descendants of
those ancestors. The effect of opening the trade by con-
gregating a number of persons in that country, had been
to excite great alarm ; and another thing which had occur--
red at the same time, the experiment made to come into
direct communication with that people by several ships
which had appeared at the same time in different parts of
the empire ; as also the attempt made to cross the barrier
of the Himalaya and Chinese Tartary, all of which had
no doubt been heard at Pekin, and excited the greatest
alarm. There were two remarkable circumstances in our
intercourse with China ; first, that the Chinese Govern-
ment had no direct communication with us, so that it was
left entirely to the Provincial Authorities; for whatever
rapacity they might be guilty of, we could obtain no re-
dress at the Court of Pekin ; but what was far worse, we
had no authentic knowledge of the will of the Go-
vernment of China. It was his opinion, gathered
from their public acts, that the Government had given
evidence of their intention to put down the opium trade.
One instance of this was, their having stopt all smuggling
at Lintin and Canton, but what was the consequences?
The viceroy became the substitute for the smugglers, and
it was the opinion of Mr. Lindsay that his special procla-
mation was only to increase his share of the plunder. He
said, on the authority of the Quarterly Review, that it
was idle to suppose a nation could keep up commerce in a
country which admitted of no diplomatic relations with
them. He knew that the East Indian trade would sug-
gest itself to the minds of Hon. Gentlemen opposite, but
that trade was a monopoly. The second point was more
remarkable. Englishmen and Foreigners who went to
Canton yet intended not to be responsible to the laws of the
country. This might do among savages who had no code
of laws ; but as far as they could judge, the Chinese had
a regular administration of justice—it was a corrupt ad-
ministration, but at the same time regular.—( Hear, hear.)
These two circumstances must, of necessity, have
brought on a collision, and in the East India trade every-
thing was different ; the trade was restricted, and all under
the control of the East India Company, and he told Gen-
tlemen opposite not to rely too much on the example of
the East India Company, for there would be constant in-
terruptions of this trade. There never was a homicide
committed in China without an interruption of the trade,
and the only check the East India Company had was
that which could not be had in our free trade with China
--putting a stop to trade. The Right Hon. Baronet the
Member for Portsmouth, and he referred to the circum-
stance with great regret, had proposed six resolutions re-
lative to the new system of trade, to which the Right
Hon. Baronet ( Sir J. Graham) bad adverted. In these
he mentioned the jealousy of the Chinese—that this would
be increased by the increase of strangers, aad the mis-
chiefs which must result from the peculiar law of homi-
cide ; he said he was so strongly impressed with this, that
in his opinion they must adopt one of two alternatives,
either to send an Embassy to the Court of Pekin and enter
into direct communication with it, or to withdraw from the
continent of China and establish ourselves in an island without
the jurisdiction of the empire. He had not, however, ad-
dressed the House five minutes before it was counted out.
He brought it forward again, but permission was only al.
lowed him on condition that not a word should be said
upon the subject, and the Right Hon. Gentleman, with all
his precaution, sat with that decorous silence he was ac-
customed to observe on his (Mr. Buller's) side of the
House, and gave no signs of attention to the resolutions,
the reading of which at the time was considered to be a
great bore, and which were negatived without a division.—
(Cheers.) He was extremely sorry this collision, which
he considered to be inevitable in the course of events,
should have been caused by the traffic in opium, and that
the Government should be mixed up in it. He could not
say it was their fault ; they had not created the monopoly
of the opium trade. There never was a monopoly more
strongly sanctioned by the Government and that House;
and if ever a debate came on on that subject, their evidence
would be to show the manner in which the East India
Company carried out that trade with China ; and in so
doing the sanction of the House of Commons. But the
gravamen of the charge upon the other side seemed to
be, that the Government might have put a stop to this
trade. He would just refer to two passages which had been
quoted to show the spirit in which the imputation had been
made. He never saw despatches which partook less of the
character of warning than these, although they had been re-
lied on as such by his Hon. and Learned Friends the
Member for Exeter, and the Hon. and Learned Member
for Woodstock. One of these was a despatch from Mr.
Davis, who said, " It is almost needless to observe that the
edict is wholly useless. . . It remains to be seen
whether the Chinese Governor will adopt rigorous mea-
sures to put down the trade."—( Cheers from the Oppo-
sition.) A Noble Lord opposite cheered, but what Mr.
Davis meant was this : " I send you an edict from the
Chinese Government, which is, as a matter of course,
wholly inoperative ; but I am not sure whether it is such
as all those which have been issued before, or whether the
Government may not intend to have recourse to other
measures."—( Hear, hear.) Well, a couple of years
passed away, and nothing was heard more about the opium
trade, except some rhodomontade of Sir George Robin-
son's, about his putting down the opium trades—(Hear,
and Laughter.) The despatch of Capt. Elliot, of the
19th Nov., 1837, on which great stress had been laid, set
before the Government the character which the trade had
assumed, and suggested that " that was the time
to adopt some remedy."—( Hear, hear.) But what was
his suggestion of a remedy ?—(and the Government must
rely upon his suggestion of a remedy as much as on his
statement of its necessity.) He suggested that the
British Government ought to take steps to legalize the
trade in opium, and ought to send a representative to Can-
ton.—( Hear, hear.) Now, those Gentlemen opposite
who insisted that distance was not an excuse for the omis-
sion of frequent instructions, might consider that their
despatch was written on the lath of March, 1838; and
if it had heen acted upon with the utmost promptitude an
ambassador could not have reached Pekin (if there were
no other obstacles) until the time when Lin had got
possession of the opium, and the British were expelled from
Canton.—( Cheers.) His Hon, and Learned Friend, who
was unusually precise for a Gentleman on the other side—
said, that "the British Government ought to have put
down the opium trade." The attempt would have been
utile—it would have been an attempt to enforce Milan and
Berlin Decrees for the Emperor of China." It
wanted no new law to declare the trade in opium illegal.
The " flaming and luminous" ordinances were not un-
known to the people of China, but they were not cared
for.—(Hear.) They had armed boats, and they set all
the edicts at defiance.—(Hear, hear.) The trade was
carried on in all their Courts, and that with the conni-
vance of the authorities.—( Hear, hear.) To make the
attempt Captain Elliot must have established a coast
blockade, as much larger than that of England as the
coasts of China were more extensive.—( Hear.) That
was a blockade which, not even the Conservative Govern-
ment, " when it comes in"—( Cheers and laughter)—
would attempt. If they did attempt it the smuggling
trade in opium would become the most sanguinary and
mischievous ever known in the world.---(" No, no.") But
it was said that the Government could have put down the
opium trade in India. If they had done so, it could be
done only by the sacrifice of 2,000,000/, of the scanty re-
venues of India, on the strength of that despatch of the
Superintendatit.—( Hear, hear.) If they had done so,
no doubt those Gentlemen opposite, who always
showed so much disregard of party feeling—( Cheers and
a laugh)—would have supported them, and borne testi-
mony to their disregard of financial difficulties, and of the
opinions of their constituents.—( Cheers.) He disap-
proved of the trade in opium as much as any man ; but it
was necessary, in order to get rid of it as a source of re-
venue to the Indian Government to have a crisis such as
the present to awaken the feelings of the people of this
country—( Hear)—and when their attention was brought
to the subject their good feeling might be relied on, and
you might legislate in safety.—( Hear, hear.) As the
Noble Lord could not put down the trade, his only course
was to keep the English Government aloof from it.—
( Hear, hear.) In answer to Capt. Elliot he said that he
would take no measure to enable British subjects to carry
on a contraband trade.—( llear, hear.) He (Lord Pal-
merston) told Mr. Elliot, that if British subjects incurred
the penalties of the Chinese laws they must take the con-
sequences, and expect no assistance from him.--( Hear,
hear.) That course of perfect forbearance was the only
course which the Noble Lord could take, unless he under-
took to administer the laws of China.--(Cries of
" Hear, hear.") It was wholly a waste of ingenuity to
show that one part of one letter, and one part of another
ought to have been answered sooner. It was no charge
against the Noble Lord that he was a bad correspondent,
and that he did not write as many letters to Captain Elliot
as you would approve of. You ought to show that some
evil had arisen from his not having done so.—(Cheers. )
As to the question of etiquette, be ( Mr. C. Buller) al-
lowed it very little weight. He thought the argument
about " Pin" as pointless a pin as he ever heard of heard
of.—(Laughter.) They had the opinion of the Hon.
Member for Portsmouth of the little value of the etiquette
They had his advice to Lord Amherst, not to submit to
the ceremonies required.—( Hear, hear.) He thought,
however, that one thing complained of was ill-advised—
the address of Lord Napier to the Chinese in the lan-
guage of China. But then that was issued by the advice
of a gentleman long acquainted with Chinese affairs,
and was sanctioned by the precedent of the East
India Company. He found he was occupying the House
too long.— ( No, no, and cheers.) With respect to the
residence of the Superintendent at Canton, that had
caused no ill-feeling on the part of the Chinese authori-
ties--there had been, in fact, no misunderstanding at all—
( Cheers)—and the residence had no more to do with the
rupture than the present motion had.—(Hear, hear, and
a laugh.) The general argument on the subject had been
disposed of by his Right Hon. and Learned Friend the
Secretary at War, and they seemed to him (Mr. B.) to
have been framed according to plain common sense—
( Hear, hear)—fettering the agent who was at a great
distance, with as few instructions as possible.—( Cheers
from the Opposition, responded to by the Liberals.)
Sir JAMES GRAHAM—There were no instructions
at all.—( Cheers.)
Mr. C. BULLE R thought that was the best of all_
( Cheers and laughter.) The Right Honourable
Baronet was a party to those general instructions to
which, in the hour of nee:l, the Duke of Wellington
referred.—( Hear, hear.) They were of the general nature
which was best adapted to his position, at so great a dis-
tance from the seat of Government. " What more," (said
the [lon. Member)" would yoe have given?"—( Cheers. )
It seemed to hint that the best instructions to a man going
out to China with very little power was "to do as little
harm as possible. --( Hear, hear. ) The best instruction
(as it appeared to him) was contained in the old adage—
" Sinere res vadere, ut vadeant."—(Hear.) The Noble
Lord ( Palmerston)had not been tardy or remiss. The
Duke of Wellington left the dispatches of Lord Napier
six months unanswered.—( Hear. ) On the contrary, in
all the cases which required early instructions he had given
immediate answers.—( Cheers.) He (Mr. B,) said no-
thing of the matter of the instructions. He spoke now