The Sun.
London, England, 1824-03-03 00:00:00

EXCISE LICENCES.

Mr. Alderman WooD, ilr. TiionAs.WlLsox, Mr. DEN-
MAN, and Mr. CIIALONE it, presented petitions, praying for a
repeal of the duty on Excise Licenses.
Mr, DEN MAN strongly objected to voting large sums for
churches and public buildings, and leaving the country still ex-
posed to the pressure of heavy taxation.
SMALL DEBTS.
Mr. B. COOPER presented a petition . from Gloucester, in
favour of the Bill for the recovery of Small Debts.
INSOLVENT COURT.
Mr. JONES presented a Petition from a person of the
revise. the Laws with respect to In-
thheardships which had ac-
Insolvent Court. Ile
nacre of oufpoSzyll
him out
limit the
In-
solvent Debtors, and to present powers of the provi-
Sional assignees. , ,
Isc
3IINLS , IRELAND.
prayed of the House to
Sir H. PARNELL prsented a petition from a-Mining Com-
pany in Ireland, statin that a new Company, to be called " the
Hibernian Alining Company,”
ostfatthi?laclerrstaeiP
as starting; anti would apply
to Parliament for incorporation.
w
'['he
petitioners prayed that
the House would consider the application or, this new company,
and
petitioners') not grant any thing injurious to their (the in-
terests.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT thought that, in the present condi-
tion of Ireland, every fair encouragement-41e did• not mean
monopoly—should be most sedulously afforded to speculating
capitalists.

CRIM I N.A. LAW.
Mr. G. L A3lB po§tponed his motion for allowing Counsel
(to speak) for felons, to the 6th of Apzil next; this would be
after the circuit.

SALMON FISHERY.
Mr. HUME presented a petition from the town of Arbroath,
complaining of certain Probibi:ofy regulations which impeded
the Scotch Salmon Fishery. if,
whichthe
thought that the system now
itinut o
petitioners understood
Parliament) diminished the
supply.of fish to the public,
that a e rbaitlilon was and
being t ochonrofiurgmh t into
and tended to confine the trade to
a few hands.

to bring forward the motion upon this.
POLICE OF THE METROPOLIS.
Mr. HUME rose
notice ost a previous evening.
subject, of.which he had given
He wished that a return should be laid before the House, of
the number of persons committed in the years 1821, 1822, and
1823, to the prison of Newgate, anti the other prisons of Lon-
don, ,
numberand Su Sur re
et y ;giving the name of each Magis-
trate,
persons committed by him ; and
stating the eventual disposal of such persona, whether dis-
charged for want of bill found, discharged by proclamation,
convicted upon trial, or formally acquitted.
111
withd d 1
etsl el
e x
Mr. HOLME SUMNER asked whether the Hon. Gentle.
man's motion extended to the county magistrates of Middle-
sex and Surrey, or was confined to the police magistrdtes ?
Mr. HUME said that his return would extend to the
county magistrates.
Mr. H. SUAINER, in that case, was prepared to oppose it.
No gentlemen would act as a magistrate if he was liable to be
called- before the House upon such motions.
Lord ALTHORP said, that he was a magistrate for Nor-
thamptonshire, and he should be ashamed if he felt any objec-
tion to having his name brought before the House on.any occa-
Sion.—(Hear !)—A nd he was quite certain that the mass of Eng-
lish country gentlemen would be of the same way of thinking.
(Hear!)
Mr. MABERLEY also, a magistrate for Surrey, protest-
ed against the doctrine of the Hon. Member (Mr. H. Sum-
ner.) He thought that it amounted to a shy; upon the magis-
trates of Surrey.—(ll ear, hear !)
Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL thought the Hon. Mem-
ber for Surrey justified in resisting the Hon. Member for Aber-
deen's motion, inasmuch as that no ground whatever had been
laid before the House for it. Ile begged farther to remark, that
much trouble and expence was occasioned by calling for papers
which were not absolutely necessary.
Mr. HUME had not troubled the House with the grounds
of his motion, merely because he thought he bad sufficiently
opened them on the occasion when he had given notice.
The fact was, that he had found out of the commitments
by the magistrates of London, a much greater number (in
proportion) of convictions than followed those of the magis-
trates of Middlesex and Surrey. By the return now moved
for, he meant to get at the cause of that difference. He
would say further, that there was no check on the conduct of
country magistrates, except public opinion. Their careless-
ness in sifting the evidence of cases was well known ; many
an innocent man was sent to prison through it, and sacrificed
for ever. The Hon, Gentleman might not be very willing to
own it. but the fact was, that no less than 600 or 700 e being
one half of the commitments in one return, were discharged,
either by acquittal through defect of evidence, or because
there was no bill. No Magistrate could object to the exposure
of his name in the returns now moved for, but those who were
conscious of having done wrong. If the Resolution produced
any real inconvenience, he would be the last man in the
House to put the officers and clerks of the county courts to the
trouble. But he was convinced that there could he no rea-
sonable objection to it.

Mr. ASIIIJRST could not see how any individual magistrate
attacked in the House, could have adequate means and oppor-
tunity for defending himself.
Jr. 3 PENMAN was astonished at the position assumed by
the Hun. Gentlemen who opposed the returns. It was assumed

that in proportion as the power of the magistrates increased, in
ouch proportion must they be left more and there irresponsible
—they were, in short, to do whatever pleased them. There
was no objection in the mind of the Hon. Member for Surrey
to returning the names of the police magistrates: surely the
objection was as great in the one case as the other. What
right had the county magistrates to this distinction ? The po-
lice magistrates were responsible to the State and to the House ;
the county magistrates were responsible to the House; and if
not there, they were responsible no where. There was an ap-
pearance of soreness, in the dread of disclosure, which was dis-
creditable to the magistrates themselves. The Secretary of
State had offered no objection to the return. He would ask
the House only to consider the enormous powers committed
to the county magistrates; for instance, the Trespass Act, and
others which passed, one, two, or more, every Session, con-
veying to them the power of summary decision without the
interference pf judge and jury, and then say whether they
ought to be left Irresponsible to the House. If the business of
tIZ Committee on Courts of Justice were reduced by the quan-
tity of cases which came before them from the Sessions Courts.
half of the grievances complained of would be done away. He
complained of the continual increase of acts which enlarged the
summary powers of Magistrates to fine and imprisonment-The
oppression of the law in that respect was of extreme severity.
It placed Magistrates in the most painful situations. It was
only yesterday that he was compelled to fine a man 5/. under
the act agains: obstructions on the pavement in the streets of
London. The defendant had seen a man in Mourning entering
the archway in Doctors'-commons, and his offence was, that
he had asked the stranger if he wanted a Proctor, which, ac-
cording to the act, was an obstruction of the way. Had this
mitigated fine not been paid, the punishment would have been
three months imrisonment with hard labour. He wished to
have the returns to every county in England.
Mr. H. SUMNER said, that if there were a specific case of
grievance laid against any Magistrate. it ought to be sent to the
proper authority Which the law had placed in controul over the
Magistrates—the Court of King's Bench.
Sir R. HERON was a friend to any inquiry into his con-
duct as a magistrate. Upon the subject of the Trespass Act,
it did astonish him that no notice had yet been given in this
Session of a motion for the repeal of that Most despotic Act,
which gave magistrates the power of arbitrarily committing a
man for doing any thing, or nothing.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL suggested an alteration.
The object of the Hon. Mover might be obtained without ad-
ding the names of magistrates. All they wanted in the first
place were the facts, which, being produced, it would be soon
discovertd whether there was any foundation for the inference
of the Hon. Gentleman or not.

Mr. PEEL approved of the suggestion of the Attorney-Ge-
neral. He thought the stipendary magistrates were necessari-
ly more open to inquiry than the county magistrates.
Mr. DEN ISON had no objection to the motion.
Alderman THOMPSON opposed it.
Mr. GREY BENNBT and Mr. Alderman WOOD spoke in
support of the motion.'
Mr. PEEL begged the House to suspend their judgment on
the conduct of the 'Westminster magistrates, who performed
their duty in a most able and satisfactory manner.
Mr. I-JU3IE said, he had the names of four or five magis-
trates against whom complaints had been made. lie wished to
have the returns, that he might compare the two statements of
facts. The motion as amended was then agreed to.
. WOOL TAX.

Mr. STUART WORTLEY presented eight petitions from
Yorkshire, signed by 12,500 individuals, against the Chancellor '
of the Exchequer'sl proposition for permitting the exportation of
British Wool, and praying to be heard before the House.
Mr. F. PALMER presented a petition from the inbsbitants
of Reading, against the window-tax and beer duties.
51r. 1116NCK trusted that the Window Tax would. be re-
pealed entirely, and that the motion on that subject to be
brought forward by the Honourable Member for Westminster
would be attended with success. He begged to call the at-
tention •of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the state in
which the retailers of beer at present stood. At Reading,
'Whilst an individual was able to sell beer at 4d. per pot, the
publicans could not afford tnsell it for less than 5d.; and why
was it ? Because the price charged by the brewers to them
would mot admit of their selling at that price. Why, it
might be asked, did not the publicans then brew their own
beer ? but that was impossible in their present relative state
to the brewers, who were, in fact, their masters. The brewers
at Reading had swallowed up the publicans, and they ap-
peared desirous now to proceed a step farther, and annibi.
late the common brewers. At present, in Reading, the Com-
mon brewers had discontinued the sale of beer by retail,
waiting the opinion of the Court of King's Bench • but the
common brewers of the country at large still continued selling
with the approbation or connivance of the Magistrates. He
therefore would put it to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whe-
ther he would not bring in sonic Bill, either enacting or decla-
ratory, to set the question at rest.—Ordered to be printed.
Lord JOHN ItUSSELIi presented a petition from the in-
habitants of Huntingdon against Slavery.—Ordered to lie on
the table.
A message from the Lords requested a copy of the report of
the Committee of the House of Commons, which was appointed
in 1810, tninquire into the usury laws. A copy of the report
was ordered to be communicated to their Lordships.

WINDOW TAX.
Mr. HOBHOUSE presented a petition from the parish of
' St. Ann's, Westminster, praying for a repeal of the whole, or
a portion of the Assessed Taxes. The Hon. Alember observed,
that had there not been a strong opinion that it was the inten.
tion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to repeal a portion of
the Window Tax, petitions would have been prepared from
the whole of Westminster, and at that moment meetings were
in preparation to take into consideration the whole of the plan
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. This petition was signed by
900 of the inhabitants of the parish, and by persons of' all poli-
tical opinions. The first paragraph soke of the " firm, wise,
and enlightened policy of the House," and with such a phrase
he was sure the House would not attribute the petition to the
Reformers of Westminster. The number of signatures had
been obtained in the short space of five hours, and among them
were the Churchwardens, the Select Vestry, and the Collectors
of the King's taxes.—The petition was read, and ordered to be
printed.
The Hon. Member presented a similar petition from St.
Mary's, Lambeth.—Ordered to be printed.
Mr. HOBHOUSE then rose to bring forward the motion of
which he had given notice. He was sensible, he said, that on
this occasion he stood in need of that indulgence which the
House had shewn him in so many former instances. These, he
assured the House, were not mere words of course, they were
the sentiments which he unfeignedly felt, and such as the House
must know he could not fail to feel upon a subject of such vital
importance as the window-tax, and, indeed, the whole plan of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He was aware that such a
course might be deemed irregular, but he should be only fol.
lowing the example which the Right Hon. Gentleman had set
him in some parts of that speech wherein that Right Hon.
Gentleman had no less convinced some of his enemies than he
had delighted his friends, by those sound, wise, and liberal
views which he hoped he would be found to follow up and re-
duce to practice, as the best foundation for that fame to which
every individual that aspired to the Government of a free
country must aspire to attain. Although the principles of the
measures in question were good, however, these measures had
not satisfied the just expectations of the country. The coun-
try had been led to expect a more considerable diminution of
taxes. In order to understand the view which the people took
of the question, they would be pleased to remember that we
had now departed from that ruinous system which taught that
the true riches of the country were best seen in the wealth of
the Treasury, and not in the pockets of the people. But as
the country was at peace, they were entitled to expect a
greater reduction, which would have enabled this country to
take her proper situation in the world. As the temple of
Janus was shut, and ,hey were not to have the honour of pay-
ing for the liberties of the world, at least they ought not to be
called on to pay heavy taxes. In the speech from the throne
at the commencement of the Session, they had been told that
every interest of the country was in a prosperous condition.—
The revenue was no doubt also in the same state, and if so, he
asked whether this was a time to continue that system of taxa-
tion which applied only to a moment of particular pressure. He
was not, however, of opinion that the great interests of the
country were so prosperous. If a prosperous state of agriculture
meant only a rise of prices, he for one could never think that a
flourishing state of affairs. The country must always suffer from
high prices : but it must suffer still more from fluctuating prices.
One side or the other must always in that case pay too much.
and then they would always have one side of the country
petitioning against the other—a state of things which ought
never to exist under a free Government. Wheat was now at
1745. and they would soon have in the bonded wheat, and then

he would ask the agriculturists if they were satisfied. The
Hon- Member who moiled the Address on the first day of dpi
Session, told them that the prosperity of the,country was.. the;
work of a Supreme Being, He could not, he presumed, mean the.
Ministers, however superior theywere, but he meant to attribute
a certain effect to the agency of causes more than natural; The
Chancellor of the Exchequer had gone out of his way to intro-
duce two topics which were but little connected With the sub-
ject of his speech. He had gone out of his way to vindicate teed
calumniated characters, the Emperor Francis suet eheellouse
of Cornmons. The first of these he could well undereend had
something to do with the prosPeritY of the country, fbr fie Con.
tributed two millions and a half towards the Surplu; of the
year. He then was probably one of the superior beings, and,
as proof his superiority had contrived to pay them two millions
and a half out of twenty-one millions ana ah;df; ivhich:ias the.
amount of his debt. The second superior agent, the House of
Commons, he could not agree in thinking had been instrumen-
tal in their prosperity. It was by that same House of COmtnoni
that a Chancellor of the Exchequer had imposed upon the conk..
try great part of that system which it was now the chief creeks
of another Chancellor of the Exchequer to remove and abrogate,
Because in time of peace that House would not burden apatient
and suffering nation to the same extent as in time of war they,
were to be thanked by theieeople. If they would shew him one
good to, be traced to the House of Commons, he would 's'heia
them two which were due to the people, and more. This *lse.
which was offered to Parliament, arose out of the system. upon
which the Government had been carried on. The Government
for so many years had had their hands in .the pockets of the
people, that they really had forgotten to whom the property
belonged, and they therefore • gave nay part of it back as a
gift, not as a restoration of what. belonged to them. But by
whom was Parliament accused ? lie had heard the late Mar-
quis of Londonderry and the late Chancellor. of the Exchea
quer say that there could be no further reduction of taxes.
They both said that. relief had been carried to its utmost ex-
tent. If then the country had. recovered from its evils
under this system, it was owing to the native health and vigour.
.of the people, and it was the most shameless presumption to.
apply to those who caused the desease the epithet due to the
patient. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer seemed to think
the country in the state of a man who was pressed to the ground,
and who, because he was lightened of a little of his load,.
would, it was supposed, live .for ever. . He- said he was . not.
legislating for this year, and it appeared to him clear as the
sun at noon-day, that they would have no further reduction of
taxes. 'When the Chancellor of the Exchequer talked of the
cords which bound the country doWn to. the earth, he should
like to ask him where those cords were twisted but in the House
of Commons. He talked too in eloquent language of the gilded
idol of prejudice, but where were its worshippers so plentiful,
or where was it so richly endowed as within the walls of Pare
liament ? With regard to the plan of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, he had spread it over so many years, and produced in:
such a form, that it appeared to create more confusion than any
thing else. He had told them that there was a surplus of 4,135,000 re
but he did not at that time state that part of this was created
by the Austrian Loam He had done that part of his speech
in short artistement ; and in this part of the whole surplus for
asnedbo silkdies dealers,
many years to come, was considerably less than the aboveamount. Notwithstanding the application of part of this. mo-
ta vast
wss
numberne yto the f reliefpetiti
petitions
st the
ithose wooln theyhad
complaining. This
a curious way for the nation to take the relief offered to theme
The general class of consumers—the nation at large, he admit-
ted, would be benefited ; but all small silk traders would be
hurt, especially by the repeal not taking place before the 6th
July. This he thought was the time for the House to make a
stand, for the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made up his
budget for several years, and if they assented now, they
could not afterwards take exception. It was a remarkable
thing that in the last thirty years the nation had paid two
billions of millions of.money in loans and taxes. The Cban4
cellor of the Exchequer
.having told them that lie had four
millions of surplus, with great simplicity asked the House,
what they were to do witlait. As for the vulgar old mode of
reducing taxation with it, thaaseemed to be out of the questions
The people had paid so much, and so cheerfully, they were so
grateful that they never looked to have any of it returned to
them. Having mused upon it for some time, at length he told
them that he had a project. This project was to build churches.
'The people of England were most religious, and had a large
number orchurches built for them two years ago. He would.
not go farther than to say, that some how or other the people
had got an idea that the interests of the church were opposed
to the interests of the nation ; and this he teas sure of, that the
people would not support those Candidates for a return to that
House who should have voted for this profligate expenditure of.
public money. He was convinced the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer would not persist in this part of his plan. He knew
that in the parish of Marylebone the rates of the pews and.
church matters of theold church had been raised three-fold. This
then was the effect of building new Churches. The money coming'
from the Austrian Loan belonged to the people, because it came'
from them. The Chancellor of the Exchequer called it a deodand;
and the Right Hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs told•thette
that the Emperor of Austria might have reasoned himself out of
this debt. How that could be he knew not, unless it were by the
ultimo ratio regent, viz. that he could not pay. He contended
that it was their duty to remit as great a portion of public bur-
dens as they had money to dispose of. There was great reason
to complain throughout the kingdom of the surcharges made in
the collection of taxes. The Window Tax was, in his view,
the most unconstitutional tax, for it made the Government more
acquainted with their private concerns than they were in reason
entitled to. It was most unequal in its operation, for the mire
of 401. a year would befound to pay considerably more than
the man of 4001. This particularly applied to the House Tax
generally. Property in houses to the amount of 2081. paid
taxes to the extent of 481. ; whilst 2001. in land hardly paid
3/. On the Window Tax they paid 1,205,000/. Het
knew that the window duty was laid on to this amount'ira
commutation for many others, but all of these had• since'
been put on. The country was therefore entitled- to the'
restoration of a great part of it. The surcharges upon this tar.
made it actually greater than it was before the redoction'ite
Many instances, owing, no doubt, to the collectors beihg allowed•
a premium on all surcharges. This was the consequence og
removing
a tax, and leaving what he called the scaffolding. Of
every 100/. laid out on building 201. went to the Government.'
He thought, therefore, the total repeal of the Window Tax,
which would lead to a greater number of buildings, would cause'
an increase to the Revenue. He would like to move for the-
repeal of the whole of the Assessed Taxes ; but he knew there'
were certain individuals who had a respect for that fallacy, the
Sinking Fund. But he thought the Chancellor of the Exchea
quer might venture upon the repeal of the Window Tar, the'
repeal of the Coal Tax, of the Duty on Rana-and on Silk. 'The
whole reduction which he proposed in the taxation for the year
was 1,205,000/. for the window duty, anti 712,000/, for the du-
ties • proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. To man
this, he would recommend that the part of the Austrian Loan'
should be devoted for next year. He would also take the
Windsor Estimate of 150,000/. He had no objection to the
King's embellishing Windsor Castle, but then let him sell some
of his Palaces for that purpose. Why not sell Kew Palace, or
Hampton Court ? The Commissioners were appointed to carry
these into effect. He knew not what would be said if his side
of the House were to propose the appointment of a Commission
to prevent the King
.playing the —, he would not say the
wurd. But he considered this a pure matter of taste on the
part of his Majesty; and these Commissioners do not get through.
their work under five or six years. In so long a time he should
fear the nation would not have the benefit of his Majesty's ser-
vices for the Government of the kingdom.—(M arks of disappro-
hation.)—He was no life insurance man, but he spoke from the
way in which Kings generally lived, and. he thought what he
said ; but he really had no thought or intention of sating any
thing disrespectful. That he assured the House was not hia
object. He objected to the outlay of 300,0001. in this and the
next year on the repairing of Windsor Castle. Having
1,500,0001., received as re-payment of the Austrian loan, he•
would add to that the estimate for repairs of Windsor Castle,.
150,000/., and 280,0001. which he calculated might be saved, by'
transferring the tax now paid on beer to malt ; and thus,
the whole sum would be nearly covered. He thought the advo-
cates for a Sinking Fund would have nothing to fear from this.
He had brought forward a scheme which he thought perfectly
practicable, anti he now called on the cotmery Gentlemen to
support him on this occasion. They had called for the reduc-
tion of taxes when their own particular interests were concern-
ed, and they ought now to come forward for the community at'
large. He called on Ministers also to favour it. The public
were found grateful for real benefits conferred. .He did not
think that they had cause to be grateful on this occasion. On
the contrary, their hopes must have been severely disappointed.
He hoped these claims would now be attended to, and conclu
ded by moving a resolution, declaring, That the plan brought
forward by the Chancellor f the Exchequer was not such as to

gatisfY the just expectations or the people—that die 'Window
Tax was oppressive and unequal, and that in the opinion of
:that House it ought totally to cease from the sth April next.
seconded the motion. If, the flouse ne-
gatived the .vote- of this -night, he thought' the people would
-stave-no .hopes of witnessing a further reduetiOn of taxittiOn.—
ne thought the statetnent.of. the Right 416 n. Gentleman.-att to
preseht stateof the cotintry had been fair, and indeed rather
under than over what he might have been expected to say. He
hoped due attention- would be paid to the imnOrtant interests
tilrected by the propositions which the thancellOr of the Ex,
Chequer had hrought forward-; and approved of the measure
announced with respect to bounties, but could wish the change
effected by spreading it over a period of ten
iftrs. He concurred with the lion. Member for Westminster
its thinking the public were not satisfied with the reductions
*posed, and in thinking that the repeal of the Window Tax
would be the greatest of benefits ; and further thinking . with
that flotwrable Gentleman that this and the whole of the As-.
seated Taxes might ',arch, be given up ; he would now confine
himself to the N 8 indow Tax. and begged to call the attention
o£, the Hoose to a paper which had issued in the last year from
14e Tax-oEte, directing a new survey to increase the produce
of the-Assessed Taxes. Had that project been persevered in,
he wit confident their table would now have been covered
with :Petitions from all parts of the country. He arg,ued at some
letigth against the maintenance of a Sinking Fund, which he
-'attended was not necessary to support public credit. He
-alksapnroved of the grant of 500,0001. to build Churches, and
complained that when the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
gbt, the Austrian payment, he acted as if " the money burnt in 1
his pocket," and seemed in a hurry to get rid of it. Though
no man could he more anxious than. he was to see the
Stovereign munificently lodged, he thought before so large
sum as three millions sterling was voted for repairs of
Windsor Castle, an inquiry ought' to take place to ascer-
tain if the means of restoring that might not be obtained by
disposing of some of the other Royal Palaces, He pointed
cut various savings which might be effected, and calculated
that these would produce a surplus. or from 26 to 27,000,000/.
in the next four years, which would enable the Government to
unction the annual remission of 6, or 7.000,0001. in taxes.
Public credit might be well sustained, if Ministers would hold,
out additional inducements to accelerate the redemption of the
. Land Tax. This would take about 40,000,000/. of stockfroni.
the money market, which would not fail to support public cre-
dit He strongly insisted on the importance of keeping faith
with the public creditor, but maintained that for this purpose
a Sinking Fund may not be wanted. The Redemption of the
Land Tax would he sufficient for every purpose. He did not
wish taxes reduced on speculation, but let the effect of this
measure be tried, and if it succeeded let reduction of taxes fol-
low. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would give
this subject his attention, and if he would do so he (Mr.
Maherly) would not press for the repeal of another tax, till
the result of the experiment should be known. If the ight
Hon. Gentleman did not choose to adopt this measure himself
on hii own responsibility, let it be referred to the consideration
of a Committee. This done, he was confident it would be found
that the means which he suggested might enable Govern-
ment to sanction a large reduction of taxes, which would
add to the happineis of the people, and make his Majesty's
liovetiment the most popular one ever known, and this, too, on
sound principles which would not bring them popularity for a
day, but which would entitle them to the lasting gratitude of
the country. .

The question being put,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, I must
confess, Sir, that I feel myself in rather a difficult situation for
it is not only my duty to defend my own propositions which I
submitted to the House the other evening, but also to explain
the grounds on which I think I can support them, and those on
which' I cannot acquiesce in either of the plans of the Al ember
for Westminster (Mr. Hobhouse), and the Member for Abing-
don' (Mr. Maberley). I trust, however, that I shall be able
to justify the course I took the other evening, and to show
there are no grounds for acceding to the plan of either of the
Honourable Members. The contest between us is of a novel
nature, for the question between us is not, as to the decrease of
taxes on the one hand, or the existence of those maintained on
the other; but whether one or two particular modes should be
adopted, to give relief to the people. Ido not clearly under-
stand whether the Hon. Member for Abingdon intends to
support the Hon. Member for Westminster. Ile admits that
say propositions are just and right in themselves, but he wishes
to superinduce an additional reduction of taxation by a con-
tingent plan for absorbing the Land Tax. He is content at
present to wave all idea of the reduction of the Assessed Taxes
until his plan shall have been carried into execution ; when, if
it should succeed, it will be competent for the House to do so.
He cannot therefore, in consistency, support the lion. Member
fer 'Westminster. Besides, his plan has been already before the
House. It was last Session submitted in detail to the House, and
it met with no very active or strong support from any part of the
House. There may be good reasons for inspiring the law relat-
ing to the reduction of the land tax, with more life and vigour.
will not deny the necessity of some reasonable measures
that description. But it should be borne in mind that the
c'reumstances under which the progress now goes on slowly, are
(Eanietrically opposite to those under which it proceeded rapidly.
The funds were then low and the land high. It could be
easily understood that the landholder had then an interest
to transfer his stock for the redenwtion of his land-tax, but
though agriculture had somewhat recovered from that depres-
sion it had suffered, yet there were not the same motives now
in operation as at that period. The purpose of the Hon. Member
tor Abingdon was to take out of the market 30 or 49,000,000/. of
stock.- The inducement, however, must be strong, or the plan
would be inoperative; and I do not think he is justified, on the
assumption of the perfect success of the plan, to propose the
reduction of the assessed taxes. The Hon. Member for West-
minster prefaced his motion by a great number of remarks
which I think were not strictly applicable to the subject; but,
p4haps, as he looks upon me as having followed the same
course on a late occasion, I have no right to animadvert upon
him fur imitating what lie considers to be my example. He
thinks, that when I expressed the opinion, which I sincerely
feel, that it must be a gratifying circumstance to Parliament
to look round and witness the improvement that has taken I
place—an improvement beyond the most sanguine expectations,
not only of Parliament but 1 believe of the Hon. Gentleman
himself; for, though I have frequently heard him dilate on
the difficulties and distresses of the country, I never heard him
once say that he contemplated for a moment that it could be
relieved from those difficulties and distresses, except by cer-
tain alterations in the form and construction of this House, to
which I will not now more fully allude : I say it appears, that
when I paid what I considered a just compliment to arlia-
inent, tne Honourable Gentleman thinks that I overlooked
all the merit of the people, that I neglected what was due to
the energy with which they met and the fortitude with which
they passed through those difficulties and distresses, and the
virtues.which for so many ages have characterised the people
of -England.—(Loud cheers and cries of " Hear"!)—! hope I
never shall be found so ungrateful towards them, who are
themselves ever grateful to their rulers for the happiness they
enjoy, as to forget their merits or refrain one moment from
making those acknowledgments which it may lie within my
power to offer for the conduct they have displayed.—(Hear,
hese 1)—I readily admit, as all mankind must feel, that it is
not to the exertions of Parliament alone and unassisted, that
we are to ascribe the happy result we have attained, but to
the energy and spirit of the people that we are in a great part
to attribute the relief'; of the nation—(Cheers,)—and I am con-
fident that the sentiments 1 expressed last year in the speech to
which lie alluded, are not justly liable to the reproach he has
passed upon- them. The Hon. Gentleman has argued this even-
ing that, much disappointment has been produced in the coun-
try by my statement.. He says it was not calculated to give satis-
faction or becobie in any respect popular. He complains that it is
so made but as to convey the melancholy and gloomy prospect of
no reduction of taxes for four years to come. lam well aware
that my propositions are not, in the_ ordinary sense of the word,
popular; but it would surely ill become a person in my situa-
tion :to overlook all, the great principles which lie ought to
apply to the regulation- of the commerce' and finances of the
country,—(Hear, hear, hear !)—inerely to obtain a temporary
Populority.—(Cheers.)—lf he did, I am sure he could obtain
no solid credit for himself : he could confer no solid good on
the country.—(Cheers.)—From the unpopularity of my state-
nUnts, if it is indeed unpopular, as the Honourable Gentleman
asserts, I am at least entitled to say that it is utterly impossible
his Majesty's Government can have had any earthly object in
drawing it up, except to take advantage of the first favourable
opportunity to call into activity and life those sound and en-
lightened principles which every man, whether on this side of the
House or the other,every man,l believe in Parliament, every man
I may say in England or any other country, who has applied his
mind to the consideration of the subject, 'deems not only to be
of the greatest importance relative to the intercourse of nations
with each other, but absolutely essential to the well-being of
states. This I consider to be a legitimate object. It is, I ens
sure, one of which I shall never have reason to be ashamed.—
(Cheers.),—But though the Hon. Gentleman admits my propo-
sitions to be right, he says they are not popular; they are not
calculated to satisfy the just wishes of the people. If this were
the first moment when the reduction of taxtion was taken into
consideration—if the same distress was still in existence that
pressed upon the country three or four years ago, the ques-
tion would assume a different shape ; but now I contend the
Bon. Gentleman is for beginning .at the wrong end. He for-
gets all that Parliament has done. He forgets that during the
last three years, three millions of Assessed Taxes have been
repealed in this country, and the whole in Ireland. He forgets,
that from regard to the well-being and comfort of the poorer
classes, Parliament has repealed upwards of three millions of
taxes on malt, salt, and leather. He also forgets the important
proposition considered last year, and which the House was in.

duced to carry, as it were by acelainstioy mean the ,proposi-
tion for reducing the duty on the distillation of spiri te in Ireland,
by which a sacrifice of the revenue, to the extent of 800,000!.
was made. Parliament cannot do everf thing at once. So 'ri-
diculous an attempt would only throweall things into, confuf4iOn-
I have shewn, in the instances of the assessed taxes apd duties
on malt, salt, and leather, that the Parliament has mani-
fested every disposition to relieve the people; I care not
whether the Honourable Gentleman considers this result
as the voluntary act of GpVeenment, or as forced upon
'us by the other side, or on both by the clamour of the
country. The fact remains, that Government and Par-
liament have shown every disposition to relieve the pressure
of taxation at the moment of its greatest pressure; and 1 say
therefore, it is too much to charge us with indifference to the
wants and wishes of the people, because at the first opportunity
we proceed to adopt sound principles for the future, even though
we do so in preference torn immediate remission of taxation.
I hope that Parliament will support us in these just principles,
by maintaining and upholding which we shall be enabled atno
,distant period to contribute still further to the reductiOn of tax-
ation.—(Cheers.)—l think therefore it is the duty of his Ma-
jesty's Government to watch with incessant vigilance, the pro-
motion of these principles. I should be ashamed if I kept
them out of sight for an instant. I have recommended the first
step to mount the ladder, and I hope the House will not suffer
itself to be run away with, to give a more immediate gratifica-
tion to the alleged wishes of the people, but that it will take
a wider range and more comprehensive scope, and support
me in that plan whihh, whatever there may be in its details
liable to objection, I have not heard an individual in the House
say is in principle wrong.—(Cheers.)—l shall now allude to
that part of the Hon. Gentleman's speech in which he considers
my statement, as precluding all possibility of expecting any fur-
ther reductions of taxations for a long period. When I took a
view for four years to come, I did so because I wished to pro-
ceed upon safe grounds. f would not incur any risk ; I
would no go too fast, lest I should be driven back, and do
mischief instead or benefit. I admit that the remissiou of taxa-
tion must, in every instance, produce positive good (Hear,
hear !) and the means of a still further reduction (llcar, hear,
hear !) but no man who looks at the subject with the eye of
practical experience, and the forethought which a per-
son in my situation ought to exercise, would calculate
that the reduction of taxation would so immediately pro-
duce these consequences, as the Honourable Gentleman seems
to expect.' There can be no doubt that the effect of reducing
the assessed taxes will be greatly to increase the remainder ;
but it is, impossible to assume the improvement within any
given and limited time. I extended my calculation of the state
of the finances to the next four years, for thd' puepose of
shewing what would be the result, if, during that period, the
revenue did not increase, nor the expenditure diminish ; but in
fairness I ought not to have been understoood to say, that I
did not expect the revenue to increase, or the expenditure to
diminish. Nothing in
-my opinion can be more unwise than
to make a mere sanguine calculation, leading to error and dis-
appointment. I conceive that in the course I took, I was jus-
tified by every principle that ought to guide an individual in
my situation. The Honourable Gentleman thinks me wrong
in estimating my surplus, because I included the re-payment
of the Austrian loan. I could not leave it out, because, if I
made it available to the general service, it must be added to the
general account; and I made no additional charges, except those
for the Churches, Windsor Castle, and the pictures. If this
loan had not been repaid, I think the country is in a situation
that would have warranted me in asking for a grant for those
objects, and the only difference would be, that I could not have
proceeded so immediately to effect a reduction of taxation. 1 shall
take this opportunity to advert to a subject of great importance,
which was introduced into the last discussion on these questions
by the Honourable Member for Midhurst (Mr. J. Smith), re-
specting the duty on law proceedings.—(Hear, hear !)—I was not
insensible, I hope I never shall be suspected of being insensible,
to the evils of those duties, though I confess I was not so strongly
impressed at the moment of drawing out my plan, with the
evils that do and must result from the operation of those
duties lam hound to acknowledge that it was my fault that
these duties did not enter into my plan of reduction—(Hear,
hear, hear !) —I am strongly impressed with the infinite (I
think that is not too strong an epithet) evil of these duties, and I'
have endeavoured, by all means in my power, to find out a
mode by which those duties may be reduced, and it is with
the greatest possible satisfaction that I now state that these
duties may be reduced without infringing on the principle of
the calculation I submitted a few evenings ago. I am aware
that I am making a statement that will expose me to reproach.
—(Cheers from the Opposition Benches.)—l am happy then
to find that it will not be the case.—(Cheers.e--1 feel grateful
to the House for the kindness with which they allow me to
correct my mistakes. I said these duties produced infinite evil,
—they have been in existence more than a century, though
that is no argument in their favour. The only argument I have
ever heard for them is, that they have a tendency to prevent
litigation.—Uiesr, hear !)—I doubt the fact ; but it is quite
certain that whatever good may be produced from the prevention
of litigation, is ten thousand times less than the evil they pro-
duce if they deny justice to one man.—(Cheers.)—On look-
ing into the detail, I was gratified to find that, in point of fact,
these duties in England did not exceed 180,000/, and as to Ire-
land, though I could make no calculation, I think I may safely
take the produce at 20,000/. The sum, therefore, to be made
up to meet the loss to the revenue will'be 200,000/. I have
cast about to find the means to provide for this deficiency, anti
1 will now tell the House where I got them. There are two
modes by which it is practicable to effect a reduction of taxa-
tion ; one is by finding other resources, the other by reducing
the expenditure.—(Cries of " Hear, hear, hear!")—Don't let
the House suppose that lam going to propose a new tax. I
am not about to treat it as a matter of composition ; but it hap-
pens that in the calculation I made, I omitted to advert to an
important source of revenue, vfrom which may be expected,
though of late years it has brought nothing into the Trea-
sury—l allude to the Crown lands. By the provisions of the
Civil List Act, this branch of the revenue is placed under a par-
ticular department; and the profits are applicable to the public
revenue. They form part of the Royal property, but are al-
ways assigned to the public service, like what are called the he-
reditary revenues of the Crown. They have always excited the
attention and vigilance of Parliament, as consisting partly of the
royal forests, from whence comes the supply of timber for the
navy. The income from this source has been considerably in-
creased, but it has hitherto been absorbed, or more in certain
expences; in the formation of the new street.. No less a sum
than 600,0001. has been borrowed at 5 per cent. on the credit
of the new street. The interest has since been reduced to 4
per cent. These expences have now ceased. For some years
the only sum paid into the Exchequer from the Crown Lands,
has been a sum of 900 or 1,000/., arising from a lease of some
alum mines in Yorkshire. I estimate, however, that in
1825, this branch of the revenue will he enabled to pay into the
treasury a considerable sum, which, in 1826 and 1827, will be
still further increased. I think I may safely venture to calcu-
late on 100,0001. per annum. In that way I shall find means
to meet half the loss. The other half I expect to derive from
the regulations now in progress for the more efficient ma-
nagement of the collection of the public revenue, I have re-
ceived a communication from my Right lion. Friend, who is
at the head of the Commision ; and from what he has inform-
ed me is already done, and proposed to be done hereafter, I
feel authorised to venture to calculate at least on an addi-
tional 100,000/. from that source. In my former statement I
assumed 50,000/. for the Customs, but not for any other de-
partment. I think I can rely safely on this calculation; and I
hope it will not be the less acceptable to the House on that ac-
count.—(Hear, hear !)—I do not think it necessary to follow the
lion. Gentleman into the subject of the grant for building
churches. His admission is just and important,. that he would
be the last man in the world to object to the grant, if its-ne-
eessity could be elieWn. I 'should not have asked for it unless
I was confident I could have shown the necessity, and that the
money already granted for that purpose had been properly and
beneficially applied. That question, however, does not affect
the matter at issue between the Hon. Gentleman and myself.
It appears to me, that the Hon. Gentleman is involved in a ra-
dical error.—(A laugh 1)—I do not mean any joke, I assure
him (Hear, hear, hear); but he assumes that Government can
afford not only the million I propose to take away, but also the
700,000/., lie proposes to take away.
Mr. HOBEIOUSE (across the table) intimated that he al-
luded to the Austrian loan.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.—But what
will the Honourable Gentleman do then for next year ? He
does not take quite so business-like a view of these subjects as
I am bound to do. I look forward to the next year. I do
not deny the value or weight of the objection that the Assessed
Taxes press on the people. I admit they press with severity,
and therefore when I could I considered it right to lighten the
pressure by a remission of 2,200,0001. The Honourable Gen-
tleman has referred to some censure that has been imputed to
me for something that has been done in the collection of the
duty on windows. The Tax-office directed the surveyors' to
make a fresh survey of their districts, and it is true that in
the letter there was certainly an allusion to the per centage
that would be allowed if the surcharges were established. I
am glad to give an explanation of what Government
really intended in that measure, and of what guided me in
sanctioning that survey.. It was represented to me that there
was a great inequality, in certain parts of the country, in the
mode in which the house tax was assessed. It was represented
that some houses, legally liable, were not assessed, and that
others of exactly the same rent, size, convenience, and nature,
were assessed at different rates. Nobody will venture to deny
that it is of the essence of justice in a tax that it should be equal,
and that if evasion is practised by one pet:on at the expence of
another, the difference taken from the latter is, in fact, robbed
from him. It was found that the inequality in the case of
the house tax prevailed to a great extent; and the result of

the fresh survey was, that the total produce of the house tax
was raised considerably-above the amount of last year. It has
been objected that I ought not thus to screw out the last farthing
• that the Act will authorize me to extort : but 1 will tell the
Illonourable Gentleman What my object was in this emit.' sure
yey. If it had turned out that by raising, the tax , equally
and justly, the total produce had been increased beyond whnt
I had calculated, Ishould have felt myself bound in justice, can-
sistency, and fair dealing, to have come down to this House, anti
proposed a reduction of the rate.---(Cheers.)—But as the object
of the survey was misunderstood, and it excited somuch clamour,
I directed the surcharges not to be enforced: I feel it my duty
to state, that I shall now direct the survey to be continued;
for I do not think it fair for one man to escape at the ex-
penee of another. If it should increase the total produce of
the tax, that will be a fair groMid for reducing the rate of the
assessment.—(Hear !)—I am glad to have had this opportunity
of giving this explanation here, where alone I can give it.
.I will not trouble the House further. I shall not re-argue the
question of the Sinking Fund. It would be useless, since the
House has decided it, and I will not weary the attention of the
Members with a repetition of arguments, which, however un-
palatable to the Hon. Gentleman, is perfectly satisfactory to the
House. I presume that ,the Muse is not disposed to depart
from the principles they have so recently sanctioned, and rescind
the law they passed the last Session. The House cannot adopt
my plan and his in concurrence. I think mine is the best under
present circumstances, and I confidently leave the question to
the decision of the House, satisfied that they will not consider
that in the course I have pursued; I have not acted with in-
difference towards the Wants, wishes. and feelings of the people,
but in an honest endeaYour to discharge my duty on sound and
liberal principles. [The Rig4,Hon. Gentleman concluded
amidst very great cheering.]
Mr. JOHN SMITH, on looking back to the conduct of the
people of England for some years past, considered them to
have a claim irresistible to every possible reduction -of the
public burdens. The country was now in a state of prosperity
which he hoped would continue. He wished that 800,0001.
were not to be withdrawn from that sum which might be re-
mitted to the people to erect Churches and repair a Royal
Palace: He knew very well that it was incurring muchodium
to oppose the building of churches, but he did oppose it ; and
he could see no earthly reason why, consistently with his duty
he should be justified in voting away 500,009/. for any such
reason. He was convinced that churches and chapels of the
Church of England would grow up as fast as they were want-
ed, if the doubt were removed as to the parties obtaining
permission to have service performed in them. He was
one who had a high opinion of the plan of the Hon. Member
for Abingdon, for redeeming the Land Tax. If the country
should be plunged into hostilities, he thought the plan, if
adopted, would furnish the country with the strongest means
of supporting it.
Mr. GIPPS supported 'the grant for building churches, and
referred to the last Report of the Commissioners, to shew that
they had been obliged, in many instances, to reject the appli-
cation of parishes.

Mr. WHITMORE said, that what they had heard that
night was calculated to reflect the highest honour upon the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, and nothing could more tend
to develope the resources of the country than the plans which.
be laid down to the House. He desired to express his grati-
tude to him, and he was sure he would also obtain the gratitude
of the whole country as soon as the advantages of his measures
began to be felt. It gave him great pleasure to see true
principle followed by Gentlemen in power, and he only re-
gretted that the principle was not carried farther. There
was one part of it, which was part and parcel of the
whole, anti which indeed he might call the ground-work
of all, and without which they could not attain their
object, which was of the most vital interest to the pub-
lic whether regarded 'as producers or consumers, that
yet remained to be done. The House would see that he
alluded to the trade in corn. He trusted that all prejudice
upon that subject would wearaway—he trusted that Gentleman
would see the evil of the existing system—he trusted to see that
true policy and principle which he knew to be good, not in theory
only, but in practice all over the world, recognised and adopted
by that House. Above all, he hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman
would, at least, prove true to his principles, and submit the ques-
tion to the consideration of the House. He should not now pursue
the subject farther, but the strong feelings he entertained upon it,
stronger than when he last brought it before the House had
Prompted him to make these observations ; and, if they did not
grow regularly out of the question, he trusted the House would
excuse him on that account.—(Hear, hear!)—Upon a matured
view of the subject he did not feel disposed to give his vote
with the Hon. Member for Nlrestminster. He thought the
Right Hon. Gentleman had gone as far as possible, and that it
would not be consistent
of keeping with his plan, in which be (Mr. W.)
entirely agreed, up a considerable surplus of in-
come over expenditure, to give up any further amount of
taxation. However unwilling he was at all times to vote for
the continuation of a tax upon the
duty to do so upon the present occasion.—(llear, hear !)
give his vote
Lord ALTHORFE said he desired shortly to state the rea-
sons why he shouldpeople, he must feel it his
in favour of the proposition
of his Hon. Friend. Re agreed entirely in the principles upon
which his Right Hun- Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
Hun'
was acting; and had learned with the greatest pleasure,
the intended reduction of the tax
upont hataw night, thepro c
esetsitne
had convinced him that a more intolerable
ginse-iltf
All the inquiry which he could make
into that subject,
grievance did not exist. his Right Hon. Friend had made an
excuse for changing his arrangements ; but as long as can- -
dour and integrit/ were considered virtues in that House, his
this tribute to his Right Hon. Friend, he
Right Honourable Friend would have no occasion to demand
excuse. In paying
was affording. to himself a great pleasure and satisfaction, be-
cause a long Intimacy and friendship had convinced him how
well it was deserved. The House, if it had attended to the
sentiments which he occasionally expressed, would be aware
that he had a very strong feeling upon the subject of the
Sinking Fund. The more he looked at that subject, and saw
money, together
the reduction which had
taken ace upon the interest of
increasing prosperity of the coun-
try, the more he was convinced that there was no neces-
sity for supporting
with the
that Fund. The National Debt was no-
thing more than a perpetual annuity, with a fixed nominal
amount, at which it could laci redeemed. It appeared to
him, therefore, to be much the'same thing to reduce one-tenth
of that nominal amount, onto
buy up one-tenth of the annuity.
If they applied themselves to reduce the amount of the an-
nuity itself, or what is .eniinonly called the interest of the
Debt, the mode was to reduce the market rate of interest upon
money. Looking at the reduction of the interest on money which
had taken place within the last two years, he could not view it
as the result of the operation of the Sinking Fund, but of the
increased wealth of the country. 'What was the operation of
this Sinking Fund upon the 27 millions which formed the inte-
rest of the debt ? He believed it was 150,0001. a year. Could
the House believe that such an operation could have any effect
upon the supply and demand of the market ? If not, would it
not be better to give these five millions hack to the pockets of
the people, as the means of accumulating further wealth ?
(Hear, hear !)—These were the views which lie took of the
question, and for these reasons he should vote for the reduction
of taxes, and consequently for the motion now before the House.
—(Hear, hear!))
Mr. TARING said, that the turn which' the question had
taken was that which related to the propriety of maintaining a
Sinking Fund ; and it must necessarily be one of the greatest
questions that could demand their attention, when they had
to decide whether a great country like this should go on
with or without such a support to its public credit. The
observations of his Noble Friend upon that subject, seemed
to have created some impression upon that side of the
House; he should take the liberty of offering a few remarks
upon what his Noble Friend 'bait said ; and he must say,
that when he remembered the respect he had always enter-
tained for his Noble Friend's talent, and more particularly for
his good sense, lie thought the arguments just made use of were
the strangest he 114 d ever, heard. I-lis Noble Friend had said
truly, that the interest of the National Debt was an annuity,
and that the capital was the nominal amount at which it could
be redeemed. His Noble Friend had also said that the price
of stock did not depend upon the operation, of the Sinking
Fund, and in that he differed from him ; for he believed it en-
tirely to depend upon that cause. He rated much higher than
his Noble Friend did, the effect of a constant purchase in
the market, though comparatively small in amount. But be-
sides that, the public creditor would look to his security. And
could any man of common understanding, who saw the alter-
nations of peace and war, which the history of any century
in any country would afford, behold a Government borrowing
in time of war, and paying off nothing in time of peace, and
have any confidence in his security for payment? The result
would be directly the reverse. A low rate of interest upon
money did not necessarily imply a high price of stocks. In
France it had happened that while the Government five per
cents. were between 50 and 60, money could be borrowed in
the market at two and a half. In Holland, at this moment,
money could be had by private parties at less than three, and
the Government were obliged to pay five, because they had no
security to give, the resources being below the expenditure,
and all men were able to see that sooner or later their capi-
tal must suffer. He was surprised to hear Gentlemen speak,
as they often did, about the Sinking Fund, and he should
like to hear any one of them say what would be the natural
course of things in the event of war, if no provision were made
for the payment of what had previously been borrowed ? He
considered the Funded System and a Sinking Fund to be
most applicable to the natural events which mark the pro.
gross of nations. It was subject to abuse, but if used with
moderation, it was a system of perfect wisdom. They must
look to the possibilities of war, and lie was sure his Honourable'
Friend, the Member for Westminster, would not be very

backward in putting the country into :a war.—(Hear and a
1.-aigh.)—lf they had many Quakers in the House, the case
would be different. But, however peaceful might be their
intentions, insults might be put upon the country, and
injury done to her interests, which could not be overlooked.
Supposing they . should require to tnaket a remonstrance
to' Russia or France; an anti), must be' assembled, yet the
cleud might pass over in a month. Would the House, think
of taxing the country upon such an occasion, or would it not ba
infinitely wiser to borrow the fewrmilljjpns that may be wanted,
and make provision for repaying the loan in more tranquil
times. - When a man became like the last, of 25 years dur-
ation, that was a different thing, and taxation must in that case
be resorted to, as in the administration of Lord Sidmouth. He
was not an admireri of that administration, yet when Lord Sid-
mouth saw that the war was assuming a permanent character,
he came down to the House with a bold measure, and proposed
a large imposition of taxes. He himself represented a popu-
lous town, where the right of voting was carried as low as al-
most in any place, and he was not insensible to market-
place popularity. By talking of the number of taxes repealed
and other such topics, that popularity was easily earned ; but
their first duty was to see what could be done with safety to
the credit of the country, and with a view to its future means
and resources. He chiefly rose to state his opinion that by
taking away the five millions surplus, Sinking Fund it was
called, and he confessed it had a bad name, that had fallen
into ridicule, they would be destroying the credit and prosperity
of the country. They would have no security without it—they
would have no respect from Foreign Powers, who, on the con-
trary would laugh at them, the first time they went with their
pockets empty. They had much better have their navy in dis-
order than their finances and treasury, for they were the real
power of the county, and the heart-strings of all its greatness.
If he might produce a •budget of his own after the example
of other Honourable Members, he would offer some observa-
tions upon the -proposed manner 'of reducing taxation. He
thought the remainder of the Salt Tax was not a good tax to
repeal.—(Hear !)—lle knew that every tax was a nuisance,
and was good to be repealed, but the, question for their con
sideration was, what repeals would be best for the people at
large. He: had inquired among, the lower classes, and he
found that they thought nothing of the remaining tax upon
salt. If they were asked what taxes pressed most heavily upon
them, salt would be the last article they would name. He
thought the manufacturers were right with regard to silks. Al-
though our silks might compete with foreigners after a certain
time, yet if the importation of the foreign article' were allowed,
our merfufacturers would be completely thrown out of employ
at first. But if the importation were not allowed, then the
duty on the raw material need not be taken off; and the duty,
amounting to 400,0001. with that on salt, about 500,0001. might
be employed in some other way ; and he should recommend
the Right Hon. Gentleman to look at the Window Tax. It was
always better to repeal direct taxes, than those which were
mixed up with the price of an article. It would remove that
most disagreeable of all persons, the tax-gatherer, who always
came when he was least wanted.—(Hear !)—He entirely con.
curred in the principles upon which the Right lion. Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer was acting. If he went on to pursue
them, and peace should continue, they might soon find even
the Three per Cents. to be objects of reduction. He had seen
in Holland Two and a Half per Cent. Stock above par—be-
tween 105 and 106. With regard to the measure of his Hon
Friend relating to the Land Tax, he thought it good as a mea-
sure, but he could not understand how it could enable them to
reduce taxation. The Hon. Member concluded by expressing
his confidence in the resources of the country, if the principles
recommended by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, were left to
have their due operation.
Lord ALTHORPE and Mr. BARING mutually explained.
Mr. W. SMITH argued against some of the conclusions
drawn by the Hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Baring). He
thought the allusion to Holland was an unfortunate one. In
that country his Hon. Friend had stated that the taxes were
not equal to the expenditure ; and of course the capitalist
would see that the deficit was made up by annual loans, and
therefore be afraid of his security. He trusted that the Salt
Tax would be reduced, because he objected to the machinery
by which it was raised. He did not believe, hoirever, that
the remaining two shillings would press heavily upon the
people. He thought the Window Tax better to be repealed than
the House Tax, because the latter was easier collected, and
with the former would be abolished those vexatious inspections,
would
dre
which people felt as a greater annoyance than paying the mo-
ney. The House Tax would only require that they should
k a
t it
they would see the rent of the
house,
It had been argued as if the
cdu c andn of h rate,
and
accordingly.w tax
destroy the whole of the Sinking
Fund, which was by no means the case. He should vote for
the motion.
is
Lord MILTON wished the Hon. Member for Taunton to
reduction
000 the fixt
ot
consider the question in his powerful mind, whether the credit
of the country did not rest upon some other basis than the Sink-
ing Fund ; whether it did not gain something from that House
being in a certain degree the representatives of the people--
from the country governing itself in itself, and being subject
to the controul of no master. He should like to know whether
the Hon. Member) would not advance a loan to this or any
other free country without a surplus, rather than to the
Grand. Seignor with ever so large a one. It became a ques.
tion, whether the Sinking Fund was necessary or not, for the
whole gist of the motion turned upon that. He confessed
he saw somewhat of injustice in this Sinking. Fund. It called
upon all classes to pay a tax whose object was to raise
the price of stock. Ile would ask, if such a fund were laid
out in the purchase of land, whether it would not raise the
price of,land ? Upon this ground, the country ought not to be
taxed fora particular class. He objected to the maintenance
of the Sinking Fund. There appeared to him to be two
ways of reducing the debt. One was that of reducing the
nominal amount, the other reducing the pressure of the debt
by increasing the capital on which a operates. The amount
of the debt was oppressive in relation to the extent of pro-
perty in the country ; therefore by increasing the capital
they reduced the debt. As long as the Sinking Fund existed
he thought the country had a right to call upon the House for
a reduction of taxes. He felt that the Right lion. Gentleman
opposite justly deserved the applauses which his conduct called
forth on all sides. He hoped that he would not listen to the
insinuations which would lead him not to repeal the Salt Tax,
and that he would alter no part of his intentions with regard
to Silk. In these measures he entirely concurred; but he cer-
tainly should not have chosen coals as an article of reduction,
because it would not afford general relief, and he thought
other parts of the country had as much claim upon them as
the City of London. He approved of the general measures of
the Right Hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer, but he did not
think reduction had gone far enough, and therefore he should
support the motion.
Mr. HUME contended that the Government ought to give
up the Sinking Fund, and by retrenching the expenditure,
create a new surplus. To those who hesitated in voting for
the motion out of respect to the Sinking Fund, he would pledge
his existence that before they met again Ministers would have
reduced the establishments to the amount which they took off.
The Hon. Member then went on to argue that the military
expenditure was too large, and that the Sinking Fund had al.
ways been a delusion to the country. The Hon. Member con-
tended, that the loan' negociated with the Bank was improvi-
dent, and the supposed advantages derived from the Sinking
Fund delusive.

Mr. SYRICS supported the motion.
Mr. HOBHOUSE (amidst a loud cry of question) replied.
The question the House of Commons had to decide that night
was, whether the people of England were to pay for four years
56,000,000 taxes ? He was sure whatever might be the opinion
in that House, the general opinion out of the House would be
in favour of the repeal.
The House then divided.—
For the Motion
Against it

- -88
-
- - 155
Majority - -67
The other Orders of the Day were disposetrof, and the House
adjourned at TWELVE O'CLOCK.

THE ARMY.

[From the LONDON GAZETTE of last night.]

Commissions signed by the Lord-Lieutenant of the County-

Palatine of Lancaster:

Furness Troop of Yeomanry Cavalry—William Fell, Gent.,
to be Lieutenant ; William Fell, Gent., to be Second Lieuten-
ant ; William Town, Gent., to be ditto ; Wm. Town, Gent.,
to be Cornet; Edw. Stanley Richmond Gale Braddyll, Gent.,
to be ditto..

Liverpool Corps of Yeomanry Cavalry—William Wilson,
Gent., to be Cornet.
Wigan Light Horse Volunteers—John Lord, Gent., to be
Cornet.

Great exertions are making to complete the
alterations, repairs, improvements, and new decorations In St.
James's Palace, by the day appointed for the celebration of the
King's birth-day.
A letter dated Christinia, 3d Feb. says—
" The weather continues to be still mild; with very little snow.
There has been great activity in bringing down the timber,
floats and deals, which has given us a large supply. Hence a
brisk and beneficial export trade is looked forward to thi. year.
The sea has continued open, and it is only within these few
days that the channel froze and set fast several Vessels."

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Martis, die Martii, 1824.

ROADS—Glossop and
,Marple Bridge; Wbitchurch, .Sar26'l7
and Bullock Smithy, and Leeds and Collingham—Bills or-
dered to be brought in. Bolton and Citorleyßill read rk
second time, and committed. Kidwetly—Bill read a third
time, and passed. Blackburn and PrestonLTetition fro
Clitheroe, in favour, to lie on the table.

PLYMOUTH EMBANKMENT—Petition of Inhabitants of Ply-
mouth, against, to lie on the table.
INGLOSUR ES —linelston (Derby)—Bill read a second time, ant
committed. Chindley (Derby)--Petition from Glossop en'
Brownside, against, referred to the Committee on the Bill. ~
CANAL—Glamorgan—Bill read a first time. Bristol and
Taunton—Petition for Bill reported, Report to lie on the
table. •
RAlLWAY—Redruth
COAL TRADE—Newcastle Bills ordered to be'
LIG HTII4 o—Camberwell brought in.