The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-13 00:00:00

IRISH RETURNS.

Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL moved for a return from
the commissioners for paving lighting, and cleansing
the city of Dublin, of a copy of the existing contract
for lighting the city with gas; copy of a letter
from Edward Lucas, Esq., under-secretary to the Lord
Lieutenant, to the Commissioners, dated Dublin Castle,
the 25th day of June, 1844, in relation to the intended
contract. Copy of the answer of the Commission.," i„
said kiter, dated the 29th day of June, 1844. Copy of
the letter from the Commissioners to Mr. Lucas, dated
the 12th day of July, 1844, on the same subjecet. Copy
of the opinion of the Solicitor-General for Ireland, taken
by the Commissioners, on said letter and contract.
Copy of the bond taken from Mr. Peter Brophy and
others by the Commissioners, on permission being given
to open the pavements for the purpose of laying the
pipes of the Alliance Gas Company. Return of such
proceedings at law (if any) as have been resorted to by
the Commissioners for any alleged violation of the con-
ditions of said bond, and the penalties incurred (if any).
—Agreed to.
ADVANCES FOR PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND.)
Mr. J. O'CONNELL also moved for an account
(since the Union) of all sums of money advanced on
loan by the Imperial Treasury for public works, or
other purposes, in Ireland ; specifying, in the case of
each loan, the purpose for which, the parties to whom,
the conditions on which, each such loan has been ad-
vanced ; and how far such conditions have as yet been
complied with ; distinguishing all advances and repay-
ments made since the establishment of the Board of Works.
Similar returns for England and Scotland. Also, a re-
, turn stating the remittances of public money from the
British Exchequer to the Irish, and vice versa, down to
the present time (in continuation of account'No. 2 of Ses
sional Paper, No. 652, date Bth August, 1845). Also a
return, stating the totals of relief of taxation to Great
Britain and Ireland respectively, in each year, since
liioo down to the present time (in eoetinuation of the
return No. 573, of 1843).—Agreed to.
LIGHT DUES.

Mr. PHILLIP HOWARD presented a petion from
the inhabitants of Carlisle against the light due; and
praying the House to carry into effect the recommenda-
tion of the Committee, of which the Hon. Member for
Montrose was chairman, appointed by that House to
consider the subject.
POOR REMOVAL BILL,
Mr. BANKES presented a petition from the inhabitants
of Penlyn, in the county of Cornwall, praying the House
to pass some measure wholly to repeal, or materially to
alter or amend the Poor Removal Act, passed in the last
session of Parliament.

Mr.
h eSr,MtlhTe Isi
eo'ereStlatrlyEfN wished
orlrel an
dt,o ask the
whether
hßighteh a dllroen:
cheaidv eodc caunryr eodffiicni official
aanc ct
royu.n t ileth(esinrt.tms.boer,Borfiedne)athhasdwhhieecnh
informed that coroners' inquests had been held upon the
bodies of 40 persons, who, within a very short period, had
fallen victims to famine.
Mr. LABOUCHERE regretted that the destitution
was most severe in some districts, but every means at
the disposal of the Government was adopted to relieve it.
Mr. SMITII O'BRIEN asked if there was no measure
of immediate relief for such a case as this?
r Ct
Governmentt InE concerningß E h a had no
nwo
it, doubt but the attention '
ancadllhede
hadto niot.
ohfimMtsrhe.elfLhAlarirdi?whl3-
doubt
but measures would be taken to afford relief.
CAMBRIDGE BURGESSES.
Mr. WATSON presented a petition from several
burgesses of Cambridge, complaining that they were
not peed on the list of Toter& for that borough, though

they were entitled to the franchise, and had taken the
necessary steps to obtain it.
DESTITUTE PERSONS (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion of Mr. LABOUCHERE, that the
order of the day for the third reading of this Bill be
read,
NEWSPAPERS—PUBLICATION OF DIS•
PATCHES.

Mr. ROEBUCK, seeing the Noble Secretary for
Foreign Affairs in his place, wished to put a ques-
tion. In the Alorning Chronicle of that morning,
a dispatch, dated the 11 th instant, signed Palmer-
ston, and directed to the Marquis of Normanby,
was published. It was not the matter of the dispatch
with which he wished to find fault, but to the circum-
stance appearing in a newspaper before it could have
reached Lord Normanby, to whom it was addressed, or
the Court to whom the communication was to he made.
Now he wished to know whether the appear-
ance of such a document in a public journal
was not in contravention of the rules which regulated
diplomatic correspondence, and contrary to the courtesy
which should be observed with regard to such commu-
nication. He was exceedingly grieved to make
this statement, as he believed that the conduct and
the good faith of the political agents of the
Noble Lord and of the Noble Lord himself with
respect to the recent relations with France,
had been completely vindistated. Still it was abso-
lutely necessary that the good faith, candour, and
straightforward conduct of the Government should
be maintained beyond all suspicion.— (Hear, hear.)
The question he wished to put to the Noble Lord was
this, and he was sure he would pardon him for doing so
—had he any cognisance of any document of the kind?
Lord PALNIERSION said the fact was, that yester-
day evening he laid on the table the continuation of the
correspondence which he had previously laid before the
House. That continuation contained the last dispatch
of M. Guizot to Count Oliviera, which had been officially
communicated to her Majesty's Government. It also con-
tained a dispatch from him (Lord Palmerston) to Lord
Normanby, that there was no intention on the part of the
Government to reply to that last dispatch. He
certainly must return his thanks to the Hon.
Member for the handsome manner in which
he had spoken of the conduct of her Majesty's Govern-
ment, in connexion with these dispatches. These
papers also contained a dispatch from Lord Nor-
manby, complaining of the inferences that mght
be drawn from certain statements which had
been made in the French Chambers ; also his
(Lord Palmerston's) answer to Lord Normanby, stating
that the confidence of the Government in him had not
been shaken by anything that had passed.—(Hear,
hear.) These papers, as he had said, were presented
yesterday, and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman must
be aware that a short time must elapse before they
could be circulated to all the Members of the House.—
(Hear, hear.) lie was sorry, that by some accident,
the papers had not been generally delivered, but he
begged to tender the lion. and Learned Gentleman his
(Lord Palmerston's) copy. (The paper was handed
bylhim to the lion, and Learned Member for Bath,
amidst considerable laughter.) It might, he thought,
be instructive to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman.
The Bill was then read a third time and passed.
FEVER IN IRELAND.

Mr. F. FRENCH wished to call the attention of the
Hon, Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland (Mr. La-
bouchere) to the recent extraordinary increase of fever
in Ireland. He had received several letters this day
stating that fever was greatly on the increase. He
wished to suggest that the valuable medical institutions
of Ireland should be made available for the purposes
of the ailing during the prevalence of the present
calamity. Ye also wished to know what steps the Go-
vernment proposed to take in order to alleviate the suf-
ferings of those persons?
Mr. LABOUCLIERE believed that the statement of
the Honourable Gentleman was correct. Ho stated
last session that, if the Government found it
necessary, the Board of Health in Dublin
would be renewed. The Lord-Lieutenant, owing to
communications which had been made to him, had made
that renewal, and the board had been in operation during
the last three weeks. The attention of the Government
was fully directed to the question.
RAILWAYS (IRELAND) BILL.

Lord G. BENTINCK moved the second reading of
this Bill.
Lord NEWRY presented a petition from Newry in
favour of it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
before he directed his attention to the important mea-
sure before the House, he wished to offer a few
observations on what bad already taken place.
There were one or two aymptons of party feeling in the obser-
vations which fell from one or two gentlemen on the other side
of the House. He was perfectly ready to believe that his
Noble Friend was willing to abstain frem all partp expressions,
and he could assure the Noble Lord that such was the feeling
of her Majesty's Government. If the measure were carried,
they were nut prepared to undertake the responsibility
of carrying it out. But it was of such importance
and magnitude, that they were not prepared to adopt it. A
plan which was to give no teas a sum than sixteen m'llions—
Lord G. BENTINCK—Not mere?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Not more.
Those sixteen millions of money were not of such a light de-
scription, as would warrant the adoption, whatever the Govern-
ment might be inclined to do in minor matters, and accord-
ingly hie Noble Friend at once frankly stated that he could not
undertake it, end that it should meet with his opposition.
He confessed that he had great satisfaction in seeing ;he
measure in the shape of a Bill, because, however lucid and
clear the statement of the Noble Lord opposite might be,
nevertheless it was surer, and more satisfactory to judge of a
measure reduced into a shape, than merely a statement in that
House ; and though, ho contested, that standing in the situ-
ation which he did, he was a little appalled at the
Erst prospect of a loan of 16 millions, that feeling
was in no degree removed, but to a considerable
degree increased, when he saw the provisions of the Bill,
provisions calculated to favour in many respects railways rather
than distressed persons in Ireland, He had no douht that the
Noble Lord had introduced the measure to relieve distress in
Ireland, but he confessed that when he saw on the back of the
Bill the name of a gentleman, the Lord Mayor of York, who
was so deeply interested in railways, and the name of another
gentleman, the Hon. Member for Westmoreland, who was so
largely concerned in furnishing the materials of which these
railways were constructed (Cheers) —he should have
been surprised it the interest of the railway proprietors
and shareholders had not been adequately considered. He did
not mean to say that these were reasons why the measure
should not be fairly considered and discussed, but he did think
that it justified him in looking with a more critical eye at the
provisions of the Bill than he should be disposed to do with a
measure introduced simply for the relief of the people of Ire-
land. He would concede to the Noble Lord that an
extension of railways in Ireland would be beneficial to
that country. He would concede, moreover, that
to a certain degree, but by no means to the extent
supposed by the Noble Lord, labour in Ireland would be
improved under the provisions of the Bill, and tt.at a certain
number of destitute labourers would be provided for. He
conceded all these points to the Noble Lord, and having con.
' ceded them, he thought that the Bill had also a tendency to
establish certain other points which ought to be
instantly explained to the satisfaction of the House.
He had heard nothing advanced to cause him to admit the
statement that the State should become a great money-lender,
or to convince him that the security of railways in Ireland
would be an advantageous security. He had heard nothing to
convince him of the benefits that the distressed persons
of Ireland would receive from the present Bill, that
he should consent to the advance of such a large sum of money,
proposed to be advanced as a loan. In the present state of
the finances of the country, and the distress which so gene-
rally prevailed, he had heard nothing to justify him in adding
so largely to the burdens of the people of this coun-
try. (Cries of " Hear, hear.") Far the sake of
securing e fficient relief for the distress of Ireland, he could
not ask the people of this country—themselves suffering under
considerable difficulties and:privations—to consent to advance this
large sum of money. Of this he was assured also, that the
money would not be effective for the purpose. With regard
to the first point to which he had referred, he was not of opi-
"-en that the State should become a joint money-!ender,
irt that House
to eeea
badsu res
f.i
ex-
cept
of
it was ceder most extraordinary circumstances, and with
the sssurance that lb. benefits would be commensurate to the
advance. Now, with
improvement,fk.a
.t
some Gentlemen
and fantastical " doctrine of political economy, he was quite
persuaded that if the security was good, there would be no
difficulty in getting advances from private individuals for the
construction of these works. He doubted if, in the
happy times which certain Hon. Members had referred
to the times of feudality, there was any great disposition to
advance sums of money for the public good, in order to serve
the interests of the yeomen and the tenants on the landowners
estates. It had also been complained that the rate of interest
was too high, but this he submitted was the only check which
the Government had that the money would not be recklessly
required. It was only because the security was not equal to
that required by private capitalists, that it was necessary to fix
the rate of interest at higher than ordinary rates.—(Hear.)
He believed that the greatest departure made from that prin-
ciple was made last year in the case of the Drainage Act,
.and as far as Scotland was concerned it was fortunate that
that measure was in existence, because the proprietors
in that country had availed themselves of it, to ex-
tend employment to the labouring classes around them.
But the measure itself was a measure of exception, and he
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not know that it could
be defended. The Noble Lord had stated that these railways
afford the most unexceptionable security. He was exceedingly
sorry to say anything which might depreciate the value of these
undertakings is the market, or to express any decided opinion as
to the value of the securities which they might offer. But
when he referred to the past transactions in Ireland, when he
referred to the advances made to public works in Ireland, he
was not singular in his doubts of the securities they had to offer.
He remembered that canals were at one time in much the same
situation that railways were now, yet he found, on referring to
the Acts, that not one of these had paid the advances made
from the public treasury. Now he scarcely need to refer
to any of these old canals, but he might instance the Loggan
Navigation, the money advanced
.by Government in the case
of this canal had not yet been paid. Soon after he had
been honoured with the seals of office, which lie now
held, a deputation from the Ulster Canal had waited
upon him, they represented that unless the whole of the
debt, due to Government, were remitted, it would be
impossible for them to go on.—(Hear, hear.) The whole
estimate for that canal was 160,000/, 130,000/. of which had
been advanced by the public. Yet, out of that 130,0e0/., not
one payment of either principal or interest had been made.
There was the Grand Canal, which was begun under the most
favourable circumstances; it was not three years yet since the
Act was passed, and an amount, in several sums of
40,000!., 33,000/., and another sum, amounting in all
to 98,00 e/., was advanced by the public, yet this under-
taking was so unable to pay either principal or interest,
that it was agreed that on the receipt of 10,0001.,
the amount of 98,0001. should be forgiven by the public.
Before the existence of railways, when the promoters of these
schemes were unable to obtain money from individuals, they
applied to Government, and the result was that both
principal and interest were altogether sacrificed. Other
advances had been made, not to the poor and impover-
ished districts and parts of Ireland, but to some of the largest
towns and richest cities in that country. Had they been re-
paid? No such thing. There was:novs due from the city of
Dublin the sum of 245.0001. advanced to them and interest upon
it, that was now considered quite irrecoverable. Advances had
been made for the wide streets of Cork, 13,000/. principal,
with 10,000 interest, but ne repayments had been made. The
sum of 55,031.11, had been advanced W the city of Limerick,