The Sun.
London, England, 1847-05-18 00:00:00

S Lr

that the glory of this country would depart; but whentold 's
him that It was the last resource of an honest man, whe fi-1 .4 Vhe -,
was
wholly unable to support himself, that it was aid in the
season
of
teheed ,aunndiaonnklivnodn. that
.occasion n thweeyrewionulad
esnadnidti asn
t lor d s
to say, " I ask, and you ' " o, a dienifiari popu-
lation, they ssoulu have
era Vin subservient, subjected popu
lation—a miserable race of
cringingi- sl,ves, instead' of a race of
upright adnudtyhoofntehset men—(Hear)—because
to ear)—because he believed it was
maintain such a character among
our people, and, therefore, he
asked(esevthmo to, tmhaatinttnaiwn
htiheish
poor,great anmdenaosutrteo
giveot
toreltiheef,
undeserving
grivien t
the
thatb eesn te thetn deserving
they were not entitled. Those who had h
thpecior rtoentrusteddfases
with the carrying out of the law, had not hads
of mind which was necessary for the proper c •
law ; and, therefore, he entrusted the Nohaierryzorgdout of the
personal feeling- enter into :a matter which affected to let no
number of the industrious classes, and to them aso vast a
commis-
sion free from, and, consequently, above, all suspicion.
Mr. BANKES was rather surprised that the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman should treat the opinions of the Hon.
Member for Knaresborough (Mr. Ferrand), so lightly,
when he himself was no great authority upon p:
lic matters of this kind; but when he taunted
the Hon. Gentleman wished not to bring in a Bill as expres-
sive of his views; he merely repeated the taunt which the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government had thrown out
at the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the other night.—(A
laugh.) The only difference in the new Commission would be,
that it would be the same as of old, with the addition of more
honour to those who would comprise the body, inasmuch as its
members would have seats in that House ; but this must be
viewed in a constitutional light, and it was well to do so at the
outset. He feared the Noble Lord, who he admitted was op-
pressed by business, had not had time to look into this Bill
and into others which had been recently introduced with the
sanction of the Government. For instance, the Health
of Towns Bill and other Bills, which would create
a number of new offices, but the Health of Towns Bill had
been proved to be an useless measure, and that it would in-
terfere with private rights and private property, and the Noble
Lord had not been able to dine with his constituents until he
had told them that the city of London would be exempted
from the operation of the Bill, and subsequently he had ex-
cluded other metropolitan districts.—( Hear, hear.) The new
Prison Bill, which was of this kind of measure, would create a
number of new officers who would supersede those who had
been entrusted with the government of the poor in their respec-
tive localities for many years.—( Hear, hear.) Swift in his
" Advice to Servants," said, " spend all your master's income,
because the more you cause him to spend, the more he will be
respected"—(Laughter)—and the Noble Lord seemed to act
upon this principle, and to get rid of any surplus
by creating new offices to spend it upon. Thus he had pre-
pared two new placemen in connexion with this Bill, shortly
after the proposition to appoint a new railway commission had
been submitted to the House.—(Hear.) He (Mr. Bankes)
had always considered that the body which bad the manage-
ment of the poor should be represented by one member of the
body in that House; but do not let two of the present body
be so elevated, because the nation was dissatisfied with them.
Why not have two of the Lords of the Treasury, two of the
Lords of the Admiralty, or two of the Board of Ordnance?—
(Laughter.) He could not, therefore, for these reasons sup-
port the Bill. He objected to the making of laws by the
Commissioners, in their own chambers, and considered that
the Ecclesiastical Commissioners had failed to give satisfaction
in this respect, notwithstanding the Attorney General had
quoted that body as an instance of success in the forming of
general rules. He saw no reason, therefore, why any
alteration in the laws relating to the poor should not
come under the revision of the House.—(Hear, hear.)
He did not think it would be even approved of in this House
to make measures without due consideration of the circum-
stances of these measures. The great benefit of this measure,
asserted by the advocates of the measure was, that it would
unite all classes ; but the present law, did not effect
that object. The petition he presented was in conformity
with these views. If they persisted they would render the
measure most unpopular. He would propose the second read-
ing of the Bill.
Sir G. GREY said that he would trouble the House
with a few observations on what had fallen from the Hon.
Gentleman. The Hon. Gentleman said that his greatest
difficulty was founded on the amount of new patronage which
this Bill bestowed on the Government. His patriotism had
drawn him away from the sanatory considerations attached to
the Bill. But he could assure the Hon. Member
that the patronage of the Crown would, in a pe-
cuniary, as well as official point of view, be dimi-
nished instead of any thing else, for several offices which
had before existed, were now abolished, and of this he was
anxious to inform the Hon. Member, in order to allay his
anxieties ; because he seemed to think that we had better go
on with filth and fever, rather than create a few new officers,
who are to inspect the health of towns. The same objec-
tions, however, did not extend to the Prisons' Bill. Btt
be was surprised that the Hon. Gentleman did not support
the measure, seeing so few points of difference existed between
them. He (Mr. Bankes) supported the Act of 1834. He
was also in favour of a central authority, and considered that
they should be represented in that House. Holding such
opinions, he was surprised that he had not voted for the Govern-
ment, instead of for the Member for Knaresborough.--
( Hear, hear.) Her Majesty's Government bad come
to the opinion that it was better to have a responsible body re-
presented in that House, than have them suffer from the im-
perfect vindications of the officers of the Crown. They were
also told that it was too late in the session to intro-
duce such a Bill. He was very happy to hear that it
was late in the session; but he would ask, lookinisback on the
mode in which the last three months had been spent, was
it possible that it could have been introduced earlier ? however,
the Hon. Gentleman had told them to withdraw the Bill, and
that there was plenty of time to introduce another.—( Hear,
hear.) But whether it be late or early his Noble Friend near
him, had stated in the early part of the session, the principles
on which the measure had been founded, so that there had
been plenty of time for consideration.
Colonel SIBTHORP said that if the Hon. Member for
Knaresborough divided the House upon his amendment, he
would be very happy to vote with him. The Bill did nothing
more than change the names of parties, and they had no inti-
mation of what was to be the salary of the president or in-
spectors—whom he would rather call spies--nor even
of their number. When once a Bill received the
second reading in that House, it might be considered as
booked—(Laughter.) A few Members attended the Committee
This was known to every Member, even of one year's standing
in the House; he, therefore, protested against the Bill, which
was one got up at the latter end of the session ; it was an ad
captandam measure, such as was the Health of Towns Bill, for
the Government only desired to have the people say-.
,4 See what luminous fellows we are."—(Loud laughter.)
He had seen so many strange things go on—( Laughter )—that
he believed Government patronage was only intended for the
purpose of giving rise to a bust of needy expectations—
(Laughter.) He (Colonel Sibthorp) knew a good deal of life
--(Great laughter)—he heard out of doors a great deal of hard
times, and a scarcity of money, and, as an Hon. Friend re-
minded him, of Exchequer bills at a diseount.—(Hear, hear.)
And they were to have a Commit sioner. Was he a guardian
to sit down with a fellow—a Government inspector or spy—
( Great laughter)—who came down to see what they did—
( Roars of laughter)—a fellow who would talk to him—
(Laughter)—and say, " I'm your inspector. If you disobey
me, woe betide you." Me! what a fellow, sent down in
Government pay—a fellow dressed in Government livery,—
( Roars of laughter.) Ho (Colonel Sibthorp) had a sort of
honest pride—(Hear, hear,—that as a poor law guardian,
and as a Member of that House, he was above the
fellows that Government might send down to
rule them. He considered that the Bill which
the Government now attempted to bring before them, was
another of a piece with the Health of Towns Bill, which
exempted London and St. Giles's, and Marylebone ; but the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government told them that to
touch on London was dangerous ground.—( Laughter.) The
Ministry dined there—(Continued laughter)—and therefore
the city of London was holy ground. He should support the
motion of his Hon. Friend Mr. Ferrand, because he was one
of those persons much wanted in that House. He was an
honest man.
Mr. CHRISTIE moved the adjournment of the debate,
which was agreed to.
LOAN DISCOUNT BILL.
Mr. SPOONER wished to know when the Government
were prepared to take the Loan Discount Bill for the third
reading.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER proposed to
take it for Thursday next.
Mr. WAIT LEY said that the country expected a very
different poor-law from that which had been introduced, and
he thought, therefore, that time should ,be given for an
expression of feeling upon the subject. He considered that
the Loan Discount Bill should be taken first, and the Poor-law
Bill afterwards.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that with regard to the Loan
the House
Discount Bill, it was desirable to get it through
before the Whitson holidays. He believed that no opposition
was offered to the Bill on principle, however much might be
objected to it in detail, and he should therefore wish to
take it as early as possible.
SCOTCH REGISTRATION BILL.
In answer to a question from Mr. Oswald relative to the
Registration (Scotland) Bill.
The LORD ADVOCATE said that the Bill would be
brought forward at an early period.
Mr. LOCKHART regretted that in accordance with the
universally expressed opinion of the Scottish people, the Bill
was not given up altogether.
Mr. FOX MAULE trusted it would not be given up, be-
cause when he recollected the Prisons Bill, which he had him-
self introduced, he feared that the only objection which existed
was on account of a little expense.
Mr. FORBES said that great opposition was manifested to
the measure in the county which he represented.
Mr. F. MACKENZIE regretted that it was the intention
of Hon. Gentlemen opposite to go on with the Bill.
He would not deny that the present system of legislation in
Scotland was imperfect, but he did maintain that a far lesseo-
bersome, arid a far less expensive system could be
dis-
covered. He should, therefore, move that this Bill
be committed that day six months.
The galleries were then cleared for a division, but none took
place, and, on our return to the gallery,
}principle
of the Bill
Mr. C. BRUCE: protesting this Bill had been broughtalight al
ns t we found
the
as it at present stood. ri
e t
further discussion upon.
unseasonable hour, and theur
out at an
it ought, therefore, to be postponed.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he would consent to take the dis-
cussion upon the Bill on the 31st of May, if there was time
• after disposing of the Irish Poor-law, which
for
rusld doing so,
then have come down from the Lords. Should it
happen there would not be time, he would propose to take the
discussion nn Monday following.
Mr. FORBES MACKENZIE was glad the Noble Lord
had made that concession, because it afforded a sufficient in-
ducement for him to withdraw his amendment.
The Bill then went through Committee.
The Burgage Tenure (Scotland) Bill and the Crown Char-
ters (Scotland) Bill went through Committee.
The Drainage of Lands Bill was postponed till Friday.
SEDUCTION AND PROSTITUTION SUPPRES-
SION BILL.
Mr. SPOONER moved that this Bill be read a first time.
Mr. C. BERKELEY objected to the Bill being proceeded
with at that late hour of the night, and if the Hon. Member
persisted in his motion, he would move as an amendment that
the House do now adjourn.
Colonel SIBTHORP suggested to his Noble Friend op-
posite, that the object of the Bill might be attained by the in-
troduction of a clause in the Health of Towns Bill.
The House then divided, when the numbers were—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority against adjournment
Another division took place immediately after, OR the motion
that this debate be now adjourned.
For the amendment
•..
Against it
Majority for non- adjournment.. —5l
When we were admitted we found
Colonel SIBTHORP addressing the House. He asked
what hindered the chief officers of the City of London from
sweeping out the soil and impurity from the metropolis..
What aided that great Act, the Health of Towns' Bill. The,
City must be pure—no doubt pure. He suggested that Ills,
object of this Bill should be met by a clause in the Health of.'
Towns' Bill. He thought it would be better in the hands of;
the Government. He moved that the Bill should be read this..
day six months.
On the question,