The Sun.
London, England, 1847-03-20 00:00:00

MORN IN G, MARCH 60, 1847.

SATURDAY

f around him. He gave to the Rev. 11&r. Baldwin a sul•scrip-
tion of 10/. for the relief of the poor of Mallow. He was
i proprietor of 160 acres in that townland, and most of the
' houses were leased away fr in him. To show that he was not
a bad landlerd, he might mention that many oi. these men had
not paid any rent for periods of five, seven, and ten veer.,
He paid also to another parish, in which he had a -small
farm, the sum of 3/., he.ng an equal quota with the other
(
landlords. lie could himself say that he had known that gen-
tleman extensively employing his poorer neighbours. Ile knew
1 for a certainty that he had frequently paid for agricultural
labour 251. or 301. a week. He thought that it was essential
to the character of the House that no hing should be stated
within its walls but what was found to be correct, and he re-
gretted that the Hon. Baronet who had made the charge had
not er deavoured in the first place to ascertain its correctness.
„ Sir B. HALL was obliged to the Hon. Gentleman for
:ving given notice of his intention to bring this subject before
-• asd, He could also assure the House that if he had
the h.- ',merits without having first tried to ascertain
made those staiaa
whether they were well toujed, he should. in his own opinion,
be deserving of the severest Censure from the House,
He would certainly express his most sincere regret if in any
thing he had said he had calped any annoyance to the feelings
of the gentleman %sliest name had been mentioned. It ap-
peared that there was a large meeting held at Fa,moY, a
which resolutions were passed on the subject of the poor-law,
and a deputation of two clergymen were appointed to wait
upon the Noble Lord at the head of the Government. Those
gentlemen had waited upon him (Sir B. Hall), and made ear.
fain statements to him, which they requested 4;1'441 be stated
in that House, in order that they might go forth to the world
through the ordinary channels of information, It had been
his lot in life to be intimate with 4 number of persons profess-
ing the Roman Catholic religion, and he should Consider it an
insult to that body if he hesitated to give the same confidence
to member; of that hotly, as to members of the Established
Church. Accordingly, he gave the fcilloot credit to their
statements, and requested that in order to prevent any misap.
prehension of them, they ahnnld be pet in 4 written ram ;
and it was the statements thus made to him that he had given
to the House. He trusted, therefore, that the House would not
believe that he was negligent in his endeavours to set henticate
the statements which he had made to the House. He said
he had now set himself right with the House, by again referrieg
to the respectable authority on whilst) he bad made the state,
peers be had laid before the House the other evening. But if
any atatmeept whiph by hFid made ;Mould be proved ineorrect,
he would he the first to retract midi statement as publicly as it
was made.
Mr. CALLAGHAN said the gentleman to whom he had
referred, namely, Mr. Courtenay, had kept for the last six
months not one dog,—( Great laughter.)
Mr. SHAW though, if the Right Hon. Baronet opposite
had followed the rule usually observed in that House, and
omitted introducing the gentlemen whose case he had noticed
he would have saved himself and the House both time and
trouble. If he had al:owed him before making his explana-
tion to read the letters which he held in his hand, the Hon.
Baronet would not have missed some points which he ought to
have observed. Mr. Courtenay said instead of 7J dogs in
the neighbourhood of Mallow, he had never kept more than
12, and for the last six months not one. That gentleman said
he hail never refused his contribution in aid of the poor. He
had given on one occasion 5/., and another 10/.. for the poor
in that neighbourhood, and he spent from 25/. to 30/. a week
on labourers at his own eitete, But because one gentleman
who called upon him f r a contribution to the funds of the
relief Committee had put him in the public papers in the most
scurrilous manner, Mr. Courtenay had refused to give his
contribution to that gentleman, but he had sent a contribu-
tion to the semetary of the fund.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL thought that the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite (Mr. Shaw) should have followed the
course of the Hon. Baronet on that side of the House (Sir B.
Hall), and avoided using scurrilous and unbecoming language,
etpeeielly towards Catholic clergymen, who were quite unde-
serving of the eh; sgee spade agetbst, Olen!, I
Mr. SHAW did not make any chaite against them. He
had only stated what "‘or. Courtenay told him.
Sir ri. W. BARRON defended the conduct of the landlords
in that district generally, and thought that ii the other Irish 1
landlords had followed their earsiople a great deal of the dis,
tress might have been prevented,
POOR-RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL. SUBSCRIP-
TIONS FROM THE UNITED STATES,
On the motion for the House going into Committee on this

iLord G. BENTINCK thought that the man who was con_
fined by illness presented as great a case of hardship es the
man incapacitated for work from the eft', et of accident, and he
trusted, therefore, that the clause would be amended by the
1 omission of the word tt permanent."
1 Mr. B. EscoT I' coincitied in the opinion expressed by the
, Noble Lord the Member for Lynn, that the omission of the
word " permanent" would be an irr provement.
After a few words from Mr. Al UN TZ.
Mr. YOUNG wished to know from the Noble Lord at the
head of the Government, whether in the concession he made
to the Hon. Member for Write] ford, cases of lever were to be
included ? One of the greatest sources of destitution was the
inability of the peasant to labour when he had just recovered
from fever. The hospitals did, indeed, give them medicine,
but when medicine could do no more, then food and nourish-
ment were required to complete his restoration to health and
strength. He wished to know, therefore, if this was to be
considered in the clause ?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Yes.
IMr. P. SCROPE said thatas the Noble Lord included cases
of sickness, as well as of accident, he should not press the
amendment of which he had given notice.
Sir 11. W. BARRON. said that the Hon. Member seemed
to forget that they had hospitals, and medical dispensaries for
the purpo.e of afferding relief to such as might require it.
Mr. W‘ AN.LEY said that Irish proprietors ought to blush,
when '.ney contrasted the operation of the poor.law in this
'eountry wi II their own. They had hospitals and medical esta-
blishments in Ireland, he had no doubt where salts or jalap
could be dispensed to such as wished for them, but he (Mr.
Wskley ) was sick of the public hospitals of Ireland. The poor
required attendance at their own homes.—.( Hear, hear.) They
wanted something more than physic; they wanted nourishment,
and he (Mr. Wakley ) wished to give them that at their own
homes, What was the practice in England with respect to the
treatment of the Irish poor ? If the Irish poor man applied to
the relieving-officer, if his limbs were entire and perfect—if
he were destitute only, would he be refused relief ?
No. The relief would be at once given to him, it
would be freely and generously given but if that man were
te, go hack to his native country, would he be entitle., to relief
there? No. The law there commanded that he should
starve.—( Hear, hear.) Now, he (Mr. Wakley ) thought
that this word " permanent," had got in by accident. It was
one of the most irrational things he had ever met with to insert
it there; but if it has got there by design, he thought it must
have originated in the mind of a very old gentleman, whom
they were all anxious to repudiate.—(Laughter.) Why, if a
man were disabled as well as destitute, the Noble Lord would
not, it appeared, give him a right to relief. There was a dis-
cre.ionary power to be allowed to guardians for the relief of
persons
out of the workhouse, and if the Noble Lord meant to
give that relief, where did the necessity arise for retaining this
obnoxious word. The poor-law of Ireland was a discredit to
the country, and he wished to know why it was not assi-
milated with the laws of Scotland and of England?
The Noble Lord had got some curious information with respect
to Scotland. In Scotland the poor man consented to live
upon meal, and in Ireland he consented to live upon potatoes,
and if he consented to live upon turf he did not think his
betters would think a moment about it. What the honest
Englishman wished to know was, why there should be three
different poor-laws for the three countries ? If they retained
this wo d permanent they would deprive the poor Irishman of
all relief from whatever causes his destitution might arise, and
he trusted, therefore, that the Noble Lord would reconsider
this question, for if the Hon. Member for Stroud consented
to the withdrawal of his amendment, he should vote against his.
doing so. —( Hear. hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL conceived that if this amendment were
adopted, they would in effect be retaining all the abuses of the
old poor law
Sir WALTER JAMES could not help thinking that
the Honourable Member for Finsbury had not showa
his usual acuteness in the consideration of this clause, for it
did in fact give the very relief which he seemed to desire.
There was one thing which he earnestly desired the Noble
Lord would consider, and which he would put before him before
he sat down, and that was the necessity of extending outdoor
relief, and on that he would give his opinions very plainly be-
fore the eonelosion of the consideration of the Bill.
Mr. B. F.SCOTT was quite agreed with the Hon. Member
fur Finsbury, for as the clause now stood it was evident that
the whole of the discretion was as to whether a man was entitled
to permanent relief or not, and therefore if a man was under
the necessity of obtaining relief for a month he was just placed
in the same position as if he required relief for his whole life.
He should therefore vote for the extinction of the word per-
manent.

Rite
air WiLLIAM CLAY presented a petition from the
Tower Hamlets, praying that the pour law of Ireland, might
be assimilated to that of England.
Mr. D. CALLAGHAN presented a petition to the same
effect from the Mayor and Corforation of Cork.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL Sir, I hope my Hon. Friend
(Mr. P. &trope) who has given notice of a motion,
will not offer any opposition to the motion, that
you now leave the chair in order that the House
may go into Committee on the Bill. In the next place,
I wish to avail myself of this opportunity to state that I have
observed eith great pleasure and satisfaction the munificent
subscriptions which have been raised in the United States of
America for the relief of the destitute poor in this country and
in Ireland.—(Loud cheers.) I think it is not improper in
this House for me, a British subj. et, to state that I am ex-
tremely gratified to find that the United States have not for-
gotten their common origin ; and that, actuated by charitable
feelings, they are making great exertions to collect large sums
of money for the relief of the existing distress. ( Hear, hear. )
Mr. P. SCROPE said, as he found the object of his motion
was embodied in the Bill, he should not press it. He should
net, therefore, detain the House from going into Committee.
The House then went into Committee.
On the first clause being proposed,
Mr. P. SCROPE objected to the word "permanent," as
being unparliamentary and unprecedented. He objected to the
words "permanently disabled" in the clause, as indicating the
description of persons toward whom relief should be extended.
These words would effectually prevent nearly two-thirds of the
poor from receiving relief. The proportion of people who
came under the title of permanently disabled, was very small,
as the greater part of those who required relief, were reduced
to that necessity. from sickness or accident. He wished to
know if the Right Hon. Gentleman would consent to the
omission of the words?
Sir GEORGE GREY said that if the word, permanent,
were omitted, it would open the door to relief being indiscri-
minately administered to those suffering under the most casual
sickness or disability.
Mr. SHAW said that the sth clause which empowered the
giving of out-door relief to the sick would meet the objection of
the Hon. Member.
Mr. POULET SCROPE said that the clause referred only
to medical relief.
Sir H. WINSTON BARRON said that the great sympathy
of the Hon. Member extended to the fact that, if the poor of
Ireland were not so well relieved as the poor of this country,
they would frequent England in the hope of bettering their con-
dition. He hoped that the lash people would not he deceived
by such sympathy.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN said that he had listened with great
sorrow to the statement of the Rtght lion. Gentleman, for be
had hoped that this amenement would have been carried. He
thought that the words, permanently disabled, were by far too
limited to admit of much relief.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that he thought it would be safer
that they should provide in a compulsory manner and by spe-
cification, for all classes entitled to relief out of the work
house, instead of giving such a general permission as the one
proposed. The Hon. Member ;or Stroud had objected tdo the
word " permanently." But it had been used before,an ex-
pressly used for the purpose of preventing an indiscriminate
definition that
administrati' nof relief. He would adopt the
nec„sit
the clause in one or two cases stopped Abort of th
of the case, for he thought that teose classes entitleeednttolyreclif
without coming under the definition of
abled" should be distinctly specified in"thaeermA:t ; but he
ood one, and,
thought that the clause, as it then stood, wasCtaUld be a most
with the addition which he had suggested, ee
efficient one.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that with respetehtetoAcw;htaot
had been stated by the Member for Dorchester,.
ns-deration of the
which he had referred was again under
House this year. With regard to the oor-law in
eieniher for Stroud, he objected to extending t
.11
ptrhoerc:itiin.sof the Hon.
He
pet' persons
the way proposed, namely, to relieve any
upon a merely temporary sickness or distress.fam.Hie had always
objected to the principle of combining the relief of the desti-
tute with assisting labourers, &c., of a board
of wages. He had spoken to a person, a mem e
who might beh irn the receipt
of guardians, who had told him that relief had been extended
to a labouring man on account of a sick child, and on his asking
it' the child were sick, he was told that the
man had made it
relief muc
istanceh in
on purpose. By such a way of applying g. 4
jury might be done to those who really require ass.
Mr. VERNON SMITH agreed with disagreed with the
the observations of
the lion. Member for Dorchster, an ht seek tem-
.g
Noble Lord who had just sat down. A manml
refused,
might sell
porary relief, and in the event of its being en little timely
all his goods, and go into the workhouse, wh
relief might have materially bettered him,
and kept him from
being a charge upon the country.
After a few words from Mr. ROSS,
gallery, which did not reach the
Sir W. CLAY thought that the principle ofioudtis-daboloerdr f
disabled, for
should not be limited entirely to the permanent y
it would prevent much expense and much social misery, if a
little timely relief were sometimes extended.
Lord COURT ENA Y supported the amendment, and would,
if a vote were taken, support the Hon. Member who moved it.
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD thought the word ought
to be struck out, as the clause, in its present shape, would be the
cause of mush hardship on the poor.
Mr. lUUNTZ had seen so much evil arise in England from
obliging the able- bodied poor to go into the workhouse fur
temporary relief, that he must support the amendment. If the
vvord permanent " was to be retained i n the clause, it should
be properly defined.
Mr. HENLEY thought it a great hardship to oblige the
able bodied poor to go into a workhouse for a few days when
they wanted relief. They were thus obliged to break up their
homes, which a little out-door relief would have prevented.
Sir D. NORREYS would support the retention of the
words in the clause.
Sir H W. BARRON took the same view of the subject.
The state of Ireland was different to that of England, and must
be dealt with in a different manner.
Mr. NEWDEGATE thought that in the existing state of
the Irish workhouses there was strong reason against crowding
the people in them, especially the healthy and able-bodied,
with the diseased, and aged, and infirm
Colonel RAWDON thought it would be best to leave the
clause in its present form.
Mr. A. S. O'BRIEN considered as this was to be a per-
manent measure, it would be best to leave the words in the
clause,
Mr. V. STUART thought it most important that in all the
workhouses separate arrangements should be made fur cases of
fever.
Mr. RICE supported the clause as it stood.
Mr. SHAW begged them to ob-er'.e in all their observa-
tions that the present measure was to be a permanent measure.
He thought it the words " permanently disabled" were struck
out it would lead to great abuse.
Sir ROPIER I' PEEL said that the present Bill proposed a
material extension of the existing poor-law in Ireland, and the
clause proposed to give the right of relief to the permanently
disabled. Were the words struck out, the Bill would tse
gether altered in its character. He thought that any ambi-
guity in the words " permanently disabled" mighte eee repermanentlymoved
by substituting " that destitute persons, disabled by old age or
bodily infirmity, should be relieved in or out of the workhouse."
In legislating for Ireland, he cautioned them to proceed with
great care lest they demoralised the people, and led them to de-
pend on parochialsupport instead of trusting to their own i ett r•
He said that as there was lit-le dependence to be
placedn upon
voluntary contributions for the relief of the poor some more
stringent measure should be introduced than the present poor
law. He thought that for the purpose required the present
experiment was sufficiently extensive, but he thought the
omission of the word " permanent" would be ruinous
co to the
clause. It gas obvious that the two clauses shouldn-
sidered together, for by their joint operation power would be
given to the guardians to administer relief at discretion in
cases where the workhouses were already full. He did hope
that the House in its beneficent desire to improve the condition
of the poor of Ireland, and so to relieve the property of this
country from some of the burdens which pressed upon it, wool.
not try this great experiment without a due degree of caution
and consideration.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he was not prepared to give up
the avoid " permanent" in the clause, but as regarded tha
suggestion of the Hon. Vlenabes for Waterford he was reat'y
to consider it, for the insertion of certain words might meet
the tiers and wishes of the lion. Member.

Mr. GROGAN felt sore upon the remarks that had
been continually made by the English Members upon
the difference between the poor-laws for the two coun-
tries. and winch had been reiterated by the Hon. Member for
Finsbury to night. This was a grievance which se eral Irish
Members as well as himself complained of.
Lord JOHN MANNERS understood that the relief was to
be gran, ed to the heads of families, and if so, there could be
no objection.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL should certainly vose for the amend-
ment of the lion. Member fur Stroud
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
that after the declaration of the Noble Lord the Hon. Mem-
ber for Stroud, would not press his motion to a division. His
Noble Friend had stated that some further addition was to be
made to the Bill, and he thought therefore that the House
had better wait until they heard what that addition was.
Major LAYARD thought that as the Bill was evidently
incomplete, the amendment was clearly unnecessary, he
should vote though with great regret against it.
11r. P, )ULETT SCROPE said that, after the declaration
of the Noble Lord, he was not inclined to press his motion to
a division, but he would draw this fact to his notice. It ap-
peared from the returns that the number, of able-bodied poor,
the heads of families, who had been relieved in 1845, amounted
to more than 160,000, while the number of th, se who were
absolutely disabled was only 193. There had been a direction
given by the Poor-law Commissioners to withhold relief re-
quired in a great number of eases, and that he thought ought
to be altered. _ _ .

Mr. SHARNIAN CRAWFORD trusted that the Noble
Lord would not overlook the cases of destitute widows.

Mr. WAKLEY explained. The Noble Lord had stated
that he was desirous of introducing all the abuses of the old
poor-law into Ireland. Now, no man had done more than he
had to do away with those abuses ; and he only wanted
to recur to the principle of the old poor-law. without,
at the same time, retaining its abuses. Nevertheless, under
the circumstances, he did not wish to press the House to a
division.

I he amendment was withdrawn.
Lord COUR TEN A Y then moved his amendment for allow-
ing relief to widows and their children, and for destitute chil-
dren, and to make that relief compulsory on the guardians ; but
after a brief conversation, in which a great number of Members
took part, he intimated his intention of withdrawing it, as he
relied upon the Government taking the necessary steps for
carrying out his design.
After a few words, front Mr. SCROPE and Sir G. GREY.
Mr. SIIAW complained, that while the clause gave the
right of permanent and absolute relief to aged and disabled
persons, whether in or out of the workhouse, it did not define
the discretion to be vested in the authorities, as to how the re-
lief should be admnistered. Relief was to he given either in
or out of the workhouse, but he thought some limits ought to
be placed ultoti this discretion.
After a few words from Mr. WAKLEY and Sir G. GREY,
the clause was agreed to.
On clause two being proposed,
Mr. SHAW ruse to object to the unlimited power the clause
gave for administering relief to the able-bodied poor. He de-
clared his intention of taking the sense of the Committee upon
it when the clause was put to the vote.
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN moved an amendment, in
effect placing the power of administering out-door relief
solely and absolutely in the hands of the boards of guardians.
Sir GEORGE GREY resisted the amendment. In Eng•
land they had experienced the danger t,f such a power, and he
could net, therefore, consent to the alteration proposed by the
Hon. Gentleman opposite. It would place the guardians
beyond the control of the Poor-law Commisssioners, and might
lead to considerable mischief.
Mr. GROG \.N supported the amendment.
Mr. LABOUCHERE admitted that the success of this law
would depend in a great degree upon the exertions of the
Board of Guardians; but, still, after the experience they had
had in this country of the existence of this discretionary power,
he could not consent to the amendment which was sought to
be introd..ced into the clause.

Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT did not think the amendment
ought to be acceded to.
Mr. HAMILTON considered the principle of giving out-
door relief to the able-bodied poor was highly objectionable;
but, if it were to be established, he thought it should be ac-
companied with the proviso contained in the amendment.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER entertained
a very different opinion. If there was no room to relieve the
able-bodied poor in the work-house, they ought to be relieved
out of it ; but before out-door relief was given the guardians
should be required to prove two facts—first, that the work-
house was lull, and, secondly, that the person seeking for relief
was really destitute and in want.

After a few words from Mr. Bellew, Mr. Dillon Browne,
Mr. Vesey, a. d Sir G. Grey,
Mr. NEWDEGATE objected to the introduction of the
proposed words.
Captain LAYARD thought the proposed clause gave too
much power to the board of guardians, the result of which
would be, to give great dissatisfaction to the people.
After a few words from Sir B. HALL and Mr. D. BROWNE.
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN said that he was perfectly
satisfied that English Members did not fully understand the
nature of Irish business. It must appear plain to every ore,
from the tone of the remarks made to-night, and of those made
last evening, that the most opposite views were entertained
even on the subject of the value of Irish laud. He
thought that the amendments he had proposed would be of con-
siderable service in giving effect to he measure before the
Committee, and tending also to promote its e t ciency, he
was sorry that the Government had opposed his amendments,
and under such circuii.stances he felt himself bound to with-
draw his an.endments.
The amendments were accordingly withdrawn.
On clause 2 t A.) being read,
Mr. P. SCROPE moved some amendments, having the
effect of giving power to the Commissioners to afford out-door
relief to able-bodied paupers. He thought that the poor.law
for Leland ought to be of the same nature as that which existed
in this country. The Hon. Member went on to refer to a meet-
ing held a short time since in Ireland, on the subject of the
poor-laws, and drew the attention of the House to the nature of
the resolutions passed at that meeting, to the effect, that the
rights of property were only secondary to the rights of exist
ante, and that the property of the country ought to support its
poverty.
Mr. LABOUCHERE believed the workhouse test would
be the most stringent one, and he thought that labour shoe' t
net be too much relied upon as a test for relief, for many
cases had come under the notice of the Government, where
the labourers preferred to receive relief in the Government
works, at a lower rate than they would have received from
private employment. He thought it much better, therefore,
to frame the law so as to stimulate the employment of the
labourers by the proprietary of the country ; and unless this
was kept in view more hirm than good would result. He was,
therefore, of opinion that the workhouse test should not be
abandoned for the labour test, which would be found to be
wholly inapplicalne to the circumstances of the country.
After a few words from Mr. O'BRIEN and Mr.DILI-on
BROWNE,
Sir GEORGE GREY said that the proposition of the
Hon. Member would have the effect of making permanent the
present. system of public works in Ireland.—(Cheers.)
Mr. FERR AND said that disease prevailed to so great an
extent in workhouses, that 225 persons had died is one week
in the Cork workhouse.
Mr. LA BOUCIIERE said that provision was made for that
in the Bill then before the House, and every board of guardians
in Ireland would have the power to make provision for such a
state of things.
SHAW then rose to propose the omission of clause 21
(A.). authorising out-door relief to the able-bodied poor. He
considered, that if this principle were introduced, that supply
and demand would be completely deranged, and that it would
open a door t d
o frau. He cons
What heidered that out-door relief
ould
only be given to the sick and disabled. -
"ected to was, that they should hold it out at the present mo-
ment above all others, when a gigantic system of out-door
relict was in operation, by telling the people, in va-t
numbers employed on the public works, that when they were
suTended, and they stood in need of relief, as no doubt they
would, that they should have out-door relief. At the present
moment 700,000 heads of families, representing no doubt
3,000,000 perms, wore Planting upon public charity in Ire-

- - - .
land. To hold out to able-bodied persons that they should care, in its administration, still be. firm's believed that to that
he entitled to out-door relief would destroy every rn hive to rue -lee, end to the su rress...londof vagrancy and mendicerev,
independenee—to that self- rel'aitce on which th • 11,,t, th, a ere indebted for titels ci.ei or er which had eharacterited t Cie
Hononrabir Baronet the Member for Tamworth hail :`(.,, •y el England, andwas one great reasinentbei%oinnndorsvtrys
laid so Intich st.ess— tht:Se 5.4,yen nunered thousstsd tails, eel ceituuis-ree, had -it:been so successful
persons would at once be tsaesferred front public works to re- ( Hear, bear-) - He_cordessed he felt great difficulty in Oil r.o—..
ceice relief under the Bill before the Flows. In six counties diming the measare at the present time, but he did so in order
—Slier), Reeeommen. Leitrim. (latticeY. Clareand Mato. to effimectthe future improvement of Ireland.—( Cheers.)
1,30',0.0 oersoris were at pre sera receiine assistance stance in ;lute. I% LEFROY, who rose amid loud cries cf " Diviiite" said
shape of employment under the Lobe, Rate Act; but that alter the speech they food heard from the Noble-Lord, he
the whole of the rates in thu e esuuties was only one kit it his duty to make some observations to the House with
million seven hundred thousand pounds; it was therefore a respres to the deputation which had waited upon his Lordship
.
mockery and a delusion to say that the rates could support such a He, and the others, ahr torrieted that deeutareen, did not think
va
st number. He admitted that the land must noofwthe taxed they were asking too much
hr.' etquesting him to give some at-
tn a greater extent than heretofore for the support
The famine was the difficulty by which the Noble Loertif)ovroara. tentio.n to the. resew' ton w tic they were notructed to place
before him And before he told tee House what the result of
pressed, and to meet it he proposed a permanent measure for that interview was, he would take the liberty of reading the
what was a temporary calamity. He felt certain that the Go
recommendation of the Puor-law Cemmissiouers to the Govern-
vernment were introducing a principle of which they did no.t ment.—(Loud ud cries of '• Or l oh," and much confusion.) ) Now,
approve—a principle which he believed would be productive of having alluded so far—( far—( Coe' lt
Cole', of -f ( th. oh,' " Div'ele.'divide,''
much evil and diaster. There was a latent disposition to in_ anti marks of imp atience)— the Hon. Member proceeded to read
dustry in the people, and it ought to be the province of the from the report, but so much contusion prevailed, that ,:he Hon.
Government to stimulate instead of deadening it, and it the Itlenther's eoteewas screce:t audible. Havir g thus alluded to
people knew that there was a permanent law to compel the the Pthe lawCommis 1 •rs., hewould proceed tostate what were
Government to support them, they would be inclined to remain the oorniens of fit suf
l
indolent. For these rea ons he would move the omission of oh, oh." arid a varier) gentlemen.—
s
1 tit the House. )
clause 2 (Al in the Bill, and when the time come he was What, said Dr. Doyle).-7Gujni,eaultil:ct Hea' parts
sorry to ttespass
prepared to take the sense of the House upon it.—( Hear.) "Pon the patience of the House —( Increased contusion.)
Mr. D. BROWNE said that the, e was a general °vines') in He hat a t uty to perk; m are! he trusted• they would allow him
Ireland that out-door relief was the only system of relief agree- a heririg.--e Cr sof 4: Divid, laid,,'-
able to the people of Ireland. —( Laughter.) And he hoped The' Hon. Member
of which was quite intim:dee and tben proceeded. to
here read several f tlar.eus'el .o;(i)nit'rnso.hil'i'e)
that the Government would persevere in their intention.. statement
The landlords of Ireleed had neglected their duty, and some say, that if such be the case to Ireland, could they, unless they
decisive step ought to be taken. aiioeted other measures, confer the the relish required
Mr. YOUNO. said he was of opinion that the property ee there were great applications for relief, there would be' and if
double
Ireland should support the poor, and with that view he sup- the number if they adoptedtheparrt,m boesiat;.
f 0,?) of e Noble Lord.
ported the measure of the Noble Lord some a ears since to in- ( Cries of " Oh, oh," and ~ He
He would' assert
troduce a poor-law into Ireland, which hail
greffected many col- that this law could never be carried out without aeat mili
lateral advantages. He, however, considered that the tars force, arid he would rather that a tax w:l9 levied or, the
first clause of the Bill would more than double landlords of Ireland.—( Cries of " Divide, divide," and great
the present rates of Ireland. ( Hear, hear.) Since eoniusein, and ft Chair, chair.") If the Noble Lord
were to
many who would find their support from private resources, press this matter. he would be gut tirg the throws of the holders
of property.---(Loud cries of Divide," and ••Hear, hear.") .
anti who would never enter a workhouse, would now seek and
obtain relief. He, therefore, considered that the objections of The Hare Gentleman then recurred to the opinions w hich had
the Right Him. Gentleman the Member for the University of been expressed upon the Bill, . Here there was sufficient au-
Dublin were not exaggerated. With regard to the second thority for the opposition that had been . xpressed.— (Divide,
clause, he was of opinion that it introduced a most dangerous dive, and Hear, hear. ) Lord D-von's Commis-ion expressed
principle—it contemplated a permanent remedy for what was . the same thine,.—( Oh, oh.) Now, he would ask of the Noble
only a temporary evil, and was only calculated to alarm and , Lord to recorisider rhisquestion—( Renewed contu:ion)—for his
mislead. There was nothing in the *Rill which made it at all ' objections were not founded upon any opinions of his. There
necessary that out-door relief should be given to he Irish , were no schemes of his, asel b•. fore this law was passed he
pauper. He had an extract from a letter written by a gen- would ask of the Nuble Led to give them power over their
tleman employed on the Comtnisi"n both in England and Ire- property, and to give them a suppl. nientary Act to prevent
land, which stated that those who were employed on out-door that subdivision of tenon cy which had been the ruin of Ireland
works were demoralised, and their employment generated a had by legislatien.- ( Renewed madmion ) He would ask another
feeling between teem and the ordinary working classes. The . quest:en and request ate tier teon, and teat was, that all pro-
provisions of this Bill had generated a very great feeling of al ern, party in Ireland should be made to share the burdens.—
Amongst the proprietors of land in Ireland, in the celerity t f ( Divide, divide.) There was at the pre.. ut time large for-
Cavan, there were three unions in which the respectivs ratings tunes made in Ireland, and if tacilities were to be given to
were already 71,4 d., 9 te'sd., and 10. id. in the pound, and up. n . business—if the great them were to be improved—it capital
such rating would the Government attempt to enforce the ad. was to hate fair play in one way it ought to have it in another.
ditional expense of out-door relief. In the last census taken, —(Renewed confusion. ) The country was becoming civi-
it was found that in that county there was one lised, and there ought to be some measures pr 'posed tor car-
labourer to nine statute acres, that was to say rying that civilisation into all pats of it.—(Fresh cries
twice as many as could be employed, even supposing of "Divide, divide," ar.d " Question, question.") He did
their agriculture to be of the very best deseription. not wish to press on the patience ot the House.—( Cries
He was afraid that before the agriculture of Ire'and attained a of " Divide, divide,' and " Chair.") There ass so much
1
high pitch, years upon years of experience must be gone confuoon In the House that it was aimest impossible to report
' through - but in its present condition it was impossible fur it to ' the Hun, Member's observations. Ile gave her Itlajesty'. Go..
support the burden about to be placed on it. vernment credit for being actuated by tit. best motives, but he
Lard JOHN RUSSELL said that the Right Hon. Gentle- . desired that they should berm-Mee other mea-ur -0, which had
man who had moved this clause in Committee upon this Bill, been recommeneted by commission mom commission. The cone
proceeded in his speech upon a fallacy. The Right Hon, elusion of the lion. lientleteau's speech was lust amid loud
Gentleman seemed to suppose, and to take it for granted, that . cries or " Division."
the present state of Ireland was to be a criterion for the present 1 Mr. ROSS, who was almost inauti in the gallery from
poor-law. In his argument. he had asked, how is this clause 1 the loud noise which prevaileti in the House, was understood to
and this Bill to provide for the prevent calamitous necessities say that he would vote tor the Gevernmeet on the pre.
of Ireland. He should admit at once. a, he had already ad- I sent oeca-iiin, Attiough lie was not w illing to
nutted in the course of that evening. that he did not think ; give its unqualified support. He behest. if, however, that
that a permanent poor-law, or any permanent law would pro- I the tioierittnent were bound to try every measure in order
vide for a state of things so calamitous as they at present ex- Ito ri meoy the calamity which had befallen Inlaid. The ex-
is'ed in Ireland. Wnen he heard the Right Honourable Gen I perimera was a lime .u. one In iris (elation tour acres would
tleman say that there were 300,000 persons now residing in I now be nisufficient to support a fatuity, for he believed that it
Mayo, and that the property of that county was not I world require ten acres, by reason of the potato failure. He
sufficient to support them by out-door relief, he must say that wound not lend the teoveriiment his support mein the present
they could not expect that the Right Hon. Gentleman's occasion, were it not that with the meesure they had intro.
description referred to the usual stare of things in Ireland. duced others mitigatory of the evils likely to aiteed it; and with
He could not admit that the present Bill, and particularly the this feeling he would vote against the amendment of the Right
clause then under consideration, was to be tried by such a Hon. Gentleman.
test, and indeed if they were to try it by that test, Sir H. W. BARRON said that this question was one of
how completely would all the circumstances mentioned the must vital importance to Irish prop let, 5, and be trusted
by the Right Honourable Gentleman fail. The Right therefore that the House weuto are.w hint to make one or two
Honourable Gentleman had sa d that he did nut observations. It the House would Low hint he would direct
correctly represent the views of the deputation which he saw its attention to certain return:, which he held in his hand—
upon that subject. He was very sorry if he had not correctly returns a hteh (although he gave every credit to Government
represented their views on what he had said, but certainly he for the care and a renrien they had exhibited in rise framing
did wish to convey what they had said, and he admitted of this measure) would he was afraid prove that their expecte-
the importance of the observations of the gentlemen whom he tions were likely to be disappointed. The Hon. Baronet then
then saw. The Right Hon. Gentleman said, that went into a lengthened calci,laiion to show that it England with
one of their declarations represented that they were a rental of 62,05/o,oooe per annum was rated 5,000,000:. for
fully prepared to admit that property in Ireland should be the maintenance of 1,600,000 paupers, Ireland, with only a
burdened to any extent for the purposes of indoor relief. Let rental of 13,000,e0 /., aim a pauper population of 2,3e0,000,,
the House apply that system of indoor relief to that which wouro, at the rate of 2 7s tid, each person be charged not less
gietoe con-
of the Right Hon. Gentleman took as the u-ual state of things in than e. 000,060., an ainoutit which he felt conviticeo could not
Ireland. Let them try that as compared with 'he present s a'e be skid. d by the counts}'.
It wa
of things in Ireland. Let hem take 700.000 persons, heads tion to vote against the Alitiistrs , although nolebt , hisses
stry
could r. h
not is tin
of families, representing 3,000,000 persons, and who coal his tears that their anticipations tit the good that would so-
would build workhouses to contain that nairiber?— suit from this melt-tire were too sanguine.
( Hear, hear.) Yet if they look, the Right Honourable Mr. El I ZGEKALD'next addressed the House. but n
Gentleman's argument in its application to the present Bill sentence reached the gallery. ‘1 e understood him to say that
u a
and to the (resent state of things ie Ireland, and if they took when the religiose, houses tad been suppress. in in Ireland,a the
it as well for itself as for the measure to be proposed, he did 43d of Elizabeth, or what was common!) termed the English
not remember anything of very great importance which was Peor-law, ought to have been introduced into that country,
proposed as a substitute, except the system of in-door relief, Air SHAW le:ed. lie would nut detain he House lon"
th longer.
which system, be it remembered, was contained in the i resent He merely wi4ied to say, in reply to one remark of the Noble
Act of Parliament for the poor-law fir Ireland. It was Lord, that by giving in-door relief the unemployed would not
therein enacted, that if there was not sufficient room in the come for it, but be stimulated to depend on their own exertions,
workhouse it should be lawful for the board of guardians to but by giving out-door relief they would come for it, and lose
raise money for the purpose of building a new work- Ouse, or all self- retiance, and thus become entirely- dependent on the
of making additions to the existing workhouses. That Bill poor-rates.
had not provided fora state of thines at all re-entitling the pre- The Committee then divided, when there appeared--
sent calameies of I, eland. Would the Right Him. Gentleman For the c1au5e........
... 242
who had thus argued from the present state of things show Against it .....
how vague the poor-law might be to remedy them.
The Right Henourable Gentleman who had just sat
down had proceeded upon a fallacious argument, for
he had represented it as the wish of the Government that
outdoor relief should be the determined rule, arid int deer
relief the exception, in Ireland. He thought that the Hot.
Gentleman in that respect had 'nista derstood both tee Bill
which was then proposed and the observations which lie (Lord
John Russell) had made to the House bettor the Speaker left
the chair that evening. He had never argued that it was fit
or desirable that out-door relief and help should be given as a
general rule from the unions of Ireland. He was not of opi
neon that, in itself, it was a desirable Ss stem. '1 te Hon.
Gentleman would admit, that no labour given in the rural
parishes of England was a sufficient test of the existing desti-
tution. He entirely subscribed to that sentiment. The
system of out-door relief had been decried. but how was the
Government to relieve those who were suffering, unless by a
system of out-door relief, when the workhouses were full ?
This case he had stated when he formerly addressed the House,
and he now wished to fix 'heir attention on it, as being the
ordinary mode of relief In this respect take the law of England.
It was sufficient for the purpose of meeting the destitution of
the country, and all he asked was, that they would make the
law of Ireland also sufficient for the same purpose, In illus-
tration he would call the attention of the House to a case of
great distress at Todmorden some years ago. In this parti-
cular case the workhouse was quite full, arid the guardians . f
the poor ordered that the able. bodied should receive aset• door
relief. The law was. that the guardians should apply some
test, to show that the party who might seek relief was really
destitute, and with this view, that the relief shouts( be
given in food and in the workhotoe, or out of t. e
workhouse if there was not accommodation within.—(Hear. )
He asked should that !Tiled be denied to Ireland, and that
there should be no sufficient resources for the guardians when
the workhouse was full, but that they should be obliged to say
we cannot see you die of hunger, but we have no alternative,
as the law prevents us raising the necessary funds ?—( Hear,
hear.) For such a case as this he proposed the peseta system
of relief. He did so, because he was afraid that in the years
before them—though the calamity of destitution might not
exist to its pr sent extent—that very serious distress woutd be '
found to pervade Ireland. The Hem Gentleman who had
just spoken said, and said truly, that there were three times
the number of agricultural labourers to the laud of Irelaiiti
compared to what there were on the best cultivated districts of
England ; and four times the number there were on the ave-
rage or English land. Still there must be some way or other
of providing for these Irish labourers.—(Cheers.) There had
grown up an unfortunate confidence, not only among the
poorest, but among the richest, of that country, in the potato
as the food of the people.—(Hear, hear.) This being so, and
considering the failure of the crop, it could not be expected
that the potato would ever again constitute the permanent ferid
of the people to the same extent as before. Other crops
would have to take the place i f the potato in order to supply
the same quantity of food which that root before supplteu.
But he said that in order to do so, and 'n ord. r to
lead to a be'ter system of cultivation. they could have no
other resource SO good as charging the pro erty of Ireland
with the maintenance os the destitute poor.—( Ch. en.) He
also believed, as it respected the ori 'nary condition of the
country, and the suppression of vagranct and mendictty, that
this measure would operate in a beneficial manner ; that, as it
regarded the bad habits which these engendered, no scheme
would be so good, in putting an end to them, and in operating
as an inducement to both landlords and farmers to impr. ee
their system of cultivation. It would cause the abandonment
of useless and unpro luctive works, and be the means of engaging
the labourers in the cuttivation of tht fields. In tuture there
would be greater cultivation of land than there Imo been, tor
unless the soil was much mote scientificelly werked, the pool
lation could not be in a satisfactory or happy state. A great
transition would take place, one of much difficulty and clauger,
and it behoved the Government, in con•ulting all the interests
of the country, to consider what measure would be best calcu
fated to a•sist the i ciliary through. Taking the advice if
Sir R. Kane in his excellent work on the industrial
resources of Ireland, they would have to consider the most
adequate and best mode of cultivating the laud
and increasing its produce. He thought that the I
mode of living cf the Irish poor, their habits indolent and
slothful, arising out of the great facility of procuring food wit
hlittle labour, and their wretched dwelliugs destitute of all doh
mestic comforts, in a great degree were the cause of
no th
longer
, t
want
of skill and energy among them. But the labisu
rers
would be a cam-e
depending on the potato for food, be believed
why the farmers would greatly improve in
believed that nothe cultivation of
their lands, and in general habits.
-
labourers were more capable
i y"f texertion
heir powers shan
none could
'
more advantageously m
the Irish labourers.—( Heare,healor". )
Luring
he had made at the time the measure of the
Noble inquiries which
Noble Lord the
Member tor Lynn respecting railway's, was under considera-
tion, he (Lord John Russell) had
b
obtainedsome informatien on
that for the first two or
this subject. He was informed that is hart been said, when
Irish labourers went on railway work,deal
learn,
but the work of
three weeks they had a good da .
education went rapidly on, sad it was found that in six weeks
they could labour as well as any of the others.—( Hear,
English labourers on
hear.) In France, where the
railways were paid higher rates of wages then
French labourers, the Irtshine•. were reckoned equ'lly
skilful with the Elighsh and. geed) wed paid.—(Hear. hear.)
If, therefore, such were the disposition and power of the Irish
labourers, why not direct them to the cultivation of the land,
and thus occupied why might the
not expect them to be as
good and skilful?—(Hear, hear.) It was his strong belief
that the present measure would cause a new existence among
the Irish farmers and labourers. At present there was a great
difference in many parts of Ireland, for though some diet' lets
he could not look upon but with alarm, in others great
exertion was making for the next harvest, and
altogether a greater breadth of land was sown them
there had ever been before, being the beginning of a new state
of existence, and a new system of cultivation.—(Hear, hear, )
If they looked to the past history of the English poor-law, they
would find that at first it was provided that the able-bodied
labourers, who would not work, should be sent to the workhouse
as a punishment, and obliged to wear is badge of disgrace,
Subsequently they had recoutse to another system. I, the
reign of George the Ist, the workhouse test wae introduced,
obliging those who were out of emicoyunint arid (testi-me,
while there was room in the workhouse to gu its i here , so as to
show that if they were really in want of food and shelter, it,eir
going in there was proof of th- it condition, and food and
shelter would then be accordingly given, care at the sanse time
being taken that the relief should not make the condition of
the recipient better than that of the independent labourer,—
(Hear, bor.) Such a systcm rat 911 t which required gre 3

Majority for the clause `‘o6
The House then resumed.
The CHAIR NIAN reported progress, and obtained leave to
t again on Monday, to consider the ten:mining clauses of the

THE PRISONS BILL AND THE CUSTODY OF
OF FENDERS BILL
were, on the motion of Sir G. GREY, read a second time and
ordered to be committed.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of,' and' the
House adjourned at a Quarter before One o'clock. •

AILWAY COMMITrEES.

(YESTERDA Y.)

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
GROUP I.

The Select Committee appointed to consider the merits of
the Bills comprised in this Group re-assembled in Room 30
at the usual hour this morning; Lord Granville Somerset in
the chair.

NORTH KENT LINE.

Mr. Bidder's evidence was confirmed. The line from Strood
to Chilham was an exteneion'ot the Gravesend and Roches-
ter line. It would cross the Medway on a railway bridge,
and .xtend on to Halstowe, where it branched off to Sheer-
ness, crossing the Swale on a wooden bridge. Emerging
from Haistowe the line entered a tunnel of 400 yards, then
skirted the north side of Sittingbourne, thene'reactied Favers-
h2in, and terminated in junction with the existing line from
Ashford to Canterbury at the Chilham station. There would
be a station at Rochester, Chatham, Strood, Milton, Hal.
stowe, Faversham, and a variety of road-side stations. By
the present line the distance from London to Canterbury was
80 miles; it would be reduced by the new line to 60 miles
and 7 furlongs. There was no doubt, in an engineering point
of view, the South-Eastern line was far superior to the
Brighton line. The Brighton lines encountered difficulties
at Boughton-Lill which it would be alm,,st impossible to
overcome. These difficulties were avoided by the South-
Ewen) line. There were two tunnels on the Brighton line
from Maidstone to Canterbury, one 2,95:5. and the other

1,478 yards in let.gth. The gradients were extremely severe,
while the line, as from London to Canterbury, was two miles
shorter than the South• Eastern (North Kent) line.