The Sun.
London, England, 1840-02-07 00:00:00

TH SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 7, 1840.

larger than any peace complement heretofore—nay, he
would say, that in many cases the complement was
much larger than the complement of any ship in which
the Noble Lord had served since he held a Commission
in the Navy. Io some instances they were very near,
in some instances they were actually larger, than the,
complement in the same rating during the last war:
Then, with respect to the position of the working and
petty officers, it would not become him to say a word
on the subject, as a Committee presided over by the
Noble Duke opposite were yet sitting to report upon
the case of that class of officers. He would merely
make one remark, and that was, that the case of those
officers had been rendered much more comfortable un-
der the present system of naval management than it
had been at any former period. Then it was com-
plained that they bad no squadrons for manoeuvring ;
but it was to be remembered that they always had fleets
in the Mediterranean, where they were constantly ma-
nosuvering, which had been already of essential benefit,
and had saved the country very large expense. He
could assure the House that whenever he conceived
it to be necessary for the defence of the country, or for
maintaining the navy in commission upon a proper
footing, for maintaining the efficiency of the ships
already existing, or for replacing decayed ships with
new and larger and better ships, and, above all,
to increase the efficiency of the navy by makinc, a
large increase to the power of steam, when-
ever it became necessary that any of these things
should be done, he would not hesitate to come to
Parliament for the power.—(Hear, hear.) Such had
always been the course he had hitherto pursued, and he
would continue to do so in future. He had no objec-
tion to offer to the production of the returns asked for.
He would give them reluctantly, but if they were
pressed for he would give them. There was one, how-
ever, which he trusted the House would pause be-
fore it ordered—it was the continuation of a return ---
" also of all ships building or ordered to be built du-
the same period ; with their state of forwardness."
He did not think that that was a proper return to be
made public. He would have no objections to give
the information privately to any Noble Lord, but he
did not think it was a proper return to be laid upon
the table of the House ; he would leave it to the dis-
cretion of the Noble Lord whether he would press for
it or not.

The Earl of HARD WICKE did not think that
the Noble Earl who, had just sat down had at all an-
swered the case made out by his Noble Friend. He'had
not shown that there was that great profundity of peace
-a-that utter safety from war which rendered it unneces-
sary for us to do more than think of our own firesides.
The Noble Earl stated that we had large fleets in the
Mediterranean, and that he could fit out forty s ailof
the line at any moment, besides having a fleet going to
China ; but he had not met the case fairly and justly.
He asked why we had never heard those
complaints before, at the time when the navy
was at its lowest ebb—it was because we were
then clearly at peace. There was not only peace
abroad, but there was satisfaction ; there was not even
one thought of war. What was the state of things
now ? Our colonies in America in an unsettled state,
and the whole coast of America swarming with French
squadrons, who, when it pleased their fancy, made
bucanneering descents on those States whom they
fancied had injured them, actually at war in India ;
tdifficulties in China, where they were sending a fleet
o settle another war. If the Government had so
many ships in the state of preparation that was boasted
of, why was not that squadron half way to its destina-
tion before this time, in place of being yet idle in our
ports.—(Hear.) The Noble Earl boasted that
he had a sufficient force to meet the Russians,
but was he prepared—had he a sufficient force to meet
the French ? Our fleet in the Mediterranean con-
sisted of fourteen sail of the line, while the French had
twelve sail. The complement of men for those twelve
sail of the line was 8,222, while the war complement of
the fourteen English ships amounted to 8,710 men. In
guns also the English had an advantage to the amount
of 224 ; but, when they looked at the frigates, the
balance was altogether in favour of the French. The
eighteen French frigates scattered over the world had
7,995 men, while the twenty-four English frigates, also
scattered over the world, had only 5,406, giving a
balance in favour of the French of 2,449 men, which
would enable them to man the remaining ships. Then,
again, with regard to the calibre of the ships as well
as of the frigates, the French had greatly the advantage
of the English. He would venture to say, that al-
though he had not the slightest doubt that, in ability to
manoeuvre, in all respecting the handling of a ship,
the English were superior in every way, but
that the great disparity of force rendered it
very probable that our officers would look with
great anxiety to that duty which they might be
called upon to perform at some future day. Then the
Noble Earl included in his six disposable ships the three
flag-ships. How were they to be manned?
The Earl of MlNTO—lmmediately from the
Ordinary.
The Earl of H ARDWICKE was not aware that
that could be done, because, if so, why cause ships
from foreign stations to go immediately to other foreign
stations ? Why not use those ships which he boasted of
as a reserve? The treaty of last year entered into be-
tween the French and English Governments to regulate
the fishing upon the two coasts, had never been carried
into effect. The fishermen of Dover and other places
on the coast complained that they were as much op-
pressed as ever, and that, because the Noble Earl had
not a ship out of his reserve to spare, in order to see
that it was carried into effect.—( Hear, hear.) The
three lag-ships lay in our ports with only three lieu-
tenants, instead of eight or nine, and with men enough
merely to wash and keep the ship clean—beyond that
he did not think they were worthy of the name of ef-
fective ships. The Noble Lord said he could equip
40 sail of the line at once. He could not man one line
of battle ship without great difficulty-,-without drafting
men from the flag ships. The officers, upon whom the
whole responsibility would fall on, in case of a war,
looked with great anxiety upon the constant and in-
creasing practice of the officers of foreign nations. How
could our officers, after 24 years of peace, have that de-
gree of experience which could warrant them in going
out with perfect confidence against other officers who
were constantly at sea, and although they should be ac-
tuated by the same loyalty and affection for the throne,
attachment to their country, and love for their profes-
sion, would they, if called upon, go out with the same
attachment to her Majesty's Ministers ? Did their
conduct to the profession warrant it ?—(Hear, hear.)
The Noble Lord had shown how ready he was to
serve the political party to which he belonged, and to
promote the connections of those who stood side by side
by him in election contests. Was that a course which
would satisfy the country ? Would the nation be satis-
fied that those forty sail of the line would go forth
well manned and well officered—officered by men who
had the welfare of their country at heart, and who
had confidence in the Ministers by whom their opera-
tions were to be directed ?---(Hear, hear.) He did
not believe that the Noble Lord was adverse to the
maintenance of an efficient naval force. But the
Noble Lord acted under the influence of that pressure
which had weighed upon all their reforming Govern-
ments. They, began by a reduction to the amount of
4,420,0001., and they were obliged to increase it to
upwards of five millions, showing an excess of
969,7001. above the former estimate. That was a
larger sum than the Noble Duke beside him
had added to the expenses of the navy during the time
that he had been in office.—(Hear, hear.) Those re-
form Governments had all to answer for.—(Hear.)
The Noble Lord (Minto) had thrown out a hint, that
his Government should be obliged to go to the House
of Commons to ask for more money for the navy.
Then, in what state was the country placed by those
reforms of reforming Governments ?—(Hear.) Was
England obliged to whip it up, in order to •be on an
equality with France, which was now looking on with
satisfaction at the condition of our navy, and was anti-
cipating the time when she would beat England ? He
believed that he had now answered most of the observa-
tions of the Noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty.-
But there was another to which he referred with great
diffidence ; he meant the young men of his prbfession.
The means of their education had been in a great
measure disregardedt--(Hear, hear.) They were
shut out from th4dvaptiges of the Seminary at Sand-
ford, and the means of education which the Government
had substituted were totally inOequate. In' getting
rid of that seminary, her Majesty's yinisters stated
that they would provide for the instruction of officers
on board ship. But in fact there were only twenty-
three inst/actors in the whole navy. But the Noble
Lord skicla itliat he had provided for the education of
thirty young .-men on shore. Now these young men
raultbe taken from the sea at the very time when their
educit.tion would be best formed on board ship. They
were, brought to school upon land at the very time
when they ought to be at sea.—( Hear.) They were
to .be polished off and finished at a land school when
their active services were required in their ships.—
(Hear, hear.) Why did not the Noble Lord leave the
College at Sandford as it was, and introduce besides
those efficient instructors of whom be boasted on board
ship, to induce young men to hold a keepfast, and rule
up what they had learned at College ? At the
college, they not only acquired a knowledge of the mathe-
matical parts of their profession, but they were also in-
structed in those languages which would be useful to
them in their traversings of the wide seas. They were
taught drawing, an acquirement of which in numberless
cases they could avail themselves to the advantage of
the service and to their credit. They had, besides, the
paramount advantage of practical instructions in the
dock-yard.—(Hear, hear.) He had now said all he
thought necessary, and he would not trouble their
Lordships further than to say, that whilst the Noble
Lord, and the Cabinet with which he was connected,
were occupied with affairs at home, and were discussing
the Municipal Corporation Bill for Ireland, the whole
liberties and the inestimable insti-utions of this country
were placed in extreme peril by the inefficient state of
the navy.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord COLVILLE could not allow the observations
which had beep made in respect to the neglect of the
navy :n other times to pass without an answer. In the
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