The Sun.
London, England, 1840-05-06 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, MAY 6, 1840.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMEN T.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, IIIAY 5.
The SPLUCER took the Chair at the usual hour.
The Tadcaster arid Hulton-road Bill was read a second
time.

Sir E. KNATCHBULL brought up the report on the
London and Greenwich Railway Bill.
Mr. DILLON BROWNE presented petitions from
various places in the counties of Galway and Mayo, in fa-
vour of the Irish Corporations Reform Bill, and the exten-
sion of the Parliamentary franchise ; and others against the
abolition of the Corn-laws, and against the Bill misnamed
a Bill for amending the acts for the registration of voters
in Ireland.
Mr. CHRISTOPHER presented petitions from va-
rious places in Lincolnshire, in favour of Church Exten-
sion, and against alteration of the Corn-laws.
Mr. SCHOLE FIELD presented petitions from con-
gregations of Protestant Dissenters in Birmingham, against
Church Extension. The Hon. Member presented another
petition from the same borough, in which the petitioners
stated that they were not adverse to the building of
more churches in connexion with the Establishment; but
they prayed that no grant of public money for the purpose
skould he consented to by the House of Commons. If vo-
luntary contributions were not sufficient to supply the in-
creased accommodation necessary, the petitioners thought
that the deficiency ought to be made up, by means of a
better management of ecclesiastical property. The Hon.
Member also presented a number of petitions from Bir-
mingham, Worcestershire, and Warwickshire, against the
civil and criminal jurisdiction of Ecclesiastical Court:,
and for the release of John Thorogood.
Major BRYAN presented petitions from places in Kil-
kenny, against the Bill for amendment of the Irish Regis-
tration. The petitioners deprecated Lord Stanley's Bill
as one which would disfranchise the whole of the present
Parliamentary constituency in Ireland.
Mr. STR OTT presented petitions from Derbyshire
against Church Extension.
Mr. E A STHOPE presented a petition from Leicester
against the employment of climbing boys in sweeping
chimneys ; another against Ecclesiastical Courts and
Church-rates, and for the release of John Thorogood.
The LION. MEMBER presented numerous petitions against
Church Extension from East Grinstead, Malden, West
Headley, and other places in Sussex; from a Baptist con-
gregation in Southampton; from Ashby-de-la- Zouche,
Lyme Regis, Northampton, and several places in the
county of Worcester.
The HON. MEMBER also presented similar petitions
from Worksworth, several parishes in Suffolk, Heaton,
Market Harborough, Pottersfield, and Walsall.
Mr. REDINGTON presented petitions from Galway
and various parts of Ireland, against Lord Stanley's Re-
gistration Bill.
Mr. VILLIERS presented petitions from Shoreditch,
Chiswick, and Fulham, praying for a total nepeal of the
Corn-laws.
Mr. ROUND presented petitions from various parts
of Essex in favour of Church Extension.
Mr. BAINES presented petitions against any grant of
public money for the Extension of Churches from Be-
verley, Denham, Gomersall, Northallerton, Stratford-
upon. Avon, Walsall, and places in Glamorganshire and
Salop. Also, a petition from Lancaster, praying for the
repeal of the Corn-laws.
Mr. B. SMITH presented petitions from Dissenting
congregations in Sudbury, Norwich, North Wolde and
South Wolde, against Church Extension.
Mr. LOWTHER presented a petition from the City of
York in favour of Church Extension.
Mr. GROTE presented 12 petitions from different
Wards in the City of London, praying for the total and
immediate repeal of the Corn Laws.
Sir R. INGLIS presented petitions from St. Mary
Abbotts, Kensington ; Iver, Bucks ; Chester, City of
Durham, Stafford, Warminster, Ilfracombe., and various
other places, in favour of Church Extension.
Sir C. COOTE presented a petition froze a place in
Queen's County in favour of the Irish Registration Bill.
Mr. ELLIOT presented a petition from the county of
Roxburgh praying for the repeal of the Corn-laws; also
one praying that passengers upon rail-roads or by steam-
boats alight be made to contribute more to the
revenue, and that the duty upon post-horses might
be reduced, and one from Kelso and five other
places regrettieg the collision between the Civil
and Ecclesiastical Courts in Scotland, and in order
to prevent such unseemly collisions in future, they prayed
that the connection between the Church and State might
be dissolved.
Mr. NIORRISON presented nine petitions from pa-
rishes in the county of Suffolk, against any grant of
public money for Church Extension.
Mr. B YNG presented petitions from the Tower Hamlets
and other places suggesting further improvement in the
metropolis.—Referred to the Metropolitan Improvement
Committee. Also petitions from various parishes in the
county of Middlesex, prayng for Church Extension ; and
one from the Dissenters of Enfield, against any grant of
public money for that purpose.
Sir CHARLES STYLE presented petitions from
Donegal and Innisfail against Lord Stanley's Irish Re-
gistration Bill.
Mr. A. YATES presented a petition from Carlow pith
a similar prayer.
Lord CL NIENTS presented twenty petitions from
parishes in the county of Leitrim to the same effect ; also
one from the Presbyterians of Ballygannon praying that the
independence of the Scottish Church might be placed upon
a firm and secure basis.
Sir E. KNATCHBUL L presented petitions from
places in Kent, against the Clergy Reserves Canada Bill,
and the Constabulary Bill.
Mr. Sergeant .JACKSON presented petitions from the
City of Cork, Youghal, Clonakilty, Kinsale, Fermoy,
Kanturk, Mallow, Bandon, Charleville, and other places,
against any alteration in the Corn-laws, and against the
importation of Foreign Flour into Ireland. Also petitions
from Cork, Middleton, Fermoy, New Inn, Tipperary, and
other places, in favour of the Irish Registration Bill.
Mr WA RD presented petitions from Sheffield, agaite
Church Extension, and also for a repeal of the Con.
laws.

Colonel SA LWE Y presented two petitions from Lud-
low against Church Extension.
Mr. PATTISON presented petitions from Clerken-
well, Southwark, and other districts of the metropolis,
praying for a repeal of the Corn-laws.
Mr. L ASCE L LES presented petitions from Wake-
field, and other places in Yorkshire, in favour of Church
Extension.
Mr. G. W. WOOD presented a petition from the ma-
nufacturers of a place iu Lancashire in favour of the Fac-
tory Bill.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL presented a petition from
Richmond in Surrey, against the rating of stock in trade.
Mr. WYNN presented petitions from Montgomery-
shire, praying for Church extension.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL presented petitions from
Kerry, against Lord Stanley's Irish Registration Bill.
Sir C. GREY presented a petition from the Baptist
congregation of North Shields, praying for the abolition of
Church Rates, and against any grant for Church Extension.
Mr. C. BULLER presented a similar petition from
the Baptist Congregation at Leeds.
Mr. F. MAULE presented a petition from Mr. J.
Stewart, complaining of evidence printed by order of the
Factory Committee, and praying that the witnesses might
be re-examined in his presence.
NOTICES OF MOTION.
Sir T. FRENIANTLE, on the part of the Hon.
Member for Harwich, postponed to this day fortnight his
motion respecting the Navigation Laws, and the seizure of
a vessel laden with Turkish produce in the port of Glou-
cester.

Mr. NI ACKINNON postponed his motion for a Select
Committee on the emigration of Hill Coolies to British
Colonies.
Mr. KELLY gave notice that on the 14th of May he
should move that an humble address be presented to her
Majesty praying for the abolition of the punishment of
death in all cases except murder.
MASTERSHIP IN CHANCERY (IRELAND.)
Mr. LEER° Y, seeing the Honourable Secretary for
Ireland in his place, wished to ask, the office of Master in
the Irish Court of Chancery having been vacant a consi-
derable time, and great inconvenience thereby occasioned,
whether it was the intention of the Government to supply
the deficiency.
Lord NI ORPETH said he was torry to hear that any
inconvenience had resulted from the vacancy not being
filled up, of which he had not previously been informed,
but no doubt it would be soon supplied, though he was not
able at that moment to say when.
Mr. C. BULLER said before the Hon. Baronet (Sir
W. Molesworth) brought forward his motion on transporta-
tion, he wished to present a petition from New South
Wales, signed by 1,200 persons, praying the House not to
come to an immediate decision on the subject, and not to
adopt a measure for its abolition without further inquiry.
A Message from the Lords brought down certain Bills,
TRANSPORTATION.
Sir WILLIAM MOLESWORTH having presented
a petition, numerously signed by the inhabitants of the
City of London, praying for the total abolition
of the punishment of transportation, said, that
in submitting to the House the motion of which
lie had given notice on this subject, he was
aware that he was undertaking a task, the perform-
ance of which was both difficult and dangerous, both on
account of the great extent of the subject and the nature
of the many enactments with which it would interfere.
He could assure the House that he had not
approached this subject without haying long and
carefully studied it, and well weighed every opi-
nion which had been propsunded on it. The
Report of the Committee en Transportation had been laid
on the table of the House towards the conclusion of the
Session before last. Two reasons had prevented him last
year from bringing this subject before the House; first, he
had hoped that the Executive Government would have
taken up the subject, and have proposed some measure
to which he could have given his approval and support,
and he did not wish to embarrass the Government by taking
up the subject ; and, secondly, as the Report contained
much matter reflecting strongly upon the moral character
of the colonists, he had been requested to defer bringing
forward any motion on the subject, until the colonists
should have had an opportunity afforded them for reading
the Report, and rebutting its statements ; but now that
that opportunity had been afforded them, he could no lon-
ger hesitate in calling the attention of the House to thesub-
jcct. The Committee had been appointed for the three-fold
purpose of inquiring into the nature of transportation and
of punishment, into its moral effects, and into the im-
provements of which the existing system was susceptible.
lie ssould endeavour to state as briefly as possible the re-
suit of this inquiry, and he might state that the materials
on which the report of the Committee had been founded
were of the best description, being composed mainly of offi-
cial documents. Now,first, as to the nature of the'punishment
of transportation, and the condition of the convict under
it. Transportation was a compound punishment, composed
of banishment from this country—of compulsory labour,
and of various punishments by which that labour was en-
forccd. Our penal colonies were New South \Vales,
Van Diemen's Land, Norfolk Island, and the Bermudas.
It would not be necessary to refer to the Bermudas, be-
cauae there the condition of the convicts was similar to

that of the hulks. He would confine his observations to
the Australian colonies, in which there were 36,000 convicts,
of whom only 5,000 were women ; the greater portion of
punishment consisted of compulsory labour, some of which
was enforced under officers appointed by the Govern-
ment, but the greater portion of the convicts, to
the number of 30,000, were assigned over to indi-
viduals upon whose temper, character, and position
in society therefore their condition must depend,
and must be, therefore, variable and uncertain.
Some convicts became domestic servants and received
wages; others, if they possessed any degree of mechanical
skill, were employed in various trades, but the greater
portion were employed in agricultural labour. In some
families convicts were as well off as the ordinary
run of servants ; in other families they were very
differently treated, and there they might be considered little
better than slaves. For by the law, as it at present existed,
the master had the power to punish his servants ; and by the
returns that had been made upon the subject, it was perfectly
clear that law was not inoperative. For, according to them,
is Van Diemen's Land, where the convicts were about
15,000, the amount of summary punishments equalled that
number, and the lashes exceeded 50,000. He would not
trouble the House with any opinion of his own upon
the assigning system, but would refer to the opinions
of Sir George Arthur and the Lieutenant-Governor
of New South Wales upon that subject, both of whom had
most graphically described the effects of that system.
The Honourable Baronet then referred to the state-
ments of Sir G. Arthur to the Colonial Secretary, in
which he characterized, in strong terms, the evils
and vexations accompanying the employment of convicts.
The only other authority ho would mention was that of Sir
Francis Forbes, the late Chief Justice of New South
Wales, who said it frequently happened that under the
assignment system the lesser criminals suffered great seve-
rity, while the greater criminals got off with compa-
rative impunity. He could not add anything to those
emphatic condemnations of the assignment system,
coming, as they did, from persons of the highest
authority, and which remained uncontradieted. It
had beea stated that the Government intended to put
SitnetinenTiohne. sinltcewrealsythe duty
offenders, and not to assign
trusted
of
fn e
tyehnewdoGutol odv
et
rphneemr
eae
nsystei
rgetnomi
pneunntthi
sashty
them to private and irresponsible individuals.—( Hear,
hear.) He bad stated there were two classes of convicts
in the penal colonies, the one of convicts in assigned
service, the other of convicts under the superintendence
of officers of the Government. He would now
refer to the latter class, which would be
the only one, if the assignment system was
abolished. The Government convicts were employed in
the public works, in the marine, and on the roads, and in
Van Diemen's Land they were appointed constables in the
police.—( A laugh.) Bands of convicts were scattered
over New South Wales for the purpose of making roads,
and they were no better than bands of robbers. He did
not make any accusation against the Home or Colonial Go-
vernment in the management of these convicts, because it
was impossible to obtain the requisite amount of official
superintendence in the Colonies, and without that official
superintendence penal discipline was impossible even in the
best constructed Governments. How much more must
that be the case, when the Government convicts could
hardly be said to be confined in a gaol at all.
The difficulty of effecting a proper management in the Co. lonics, was proved by the fact that it was necessary to
appoint a police of convicts, and Sir George Arthur de-
-1 Glared that he found such a police better than any which
' could be formed of freemen in Van Diemen's Land. He
wished to draw the attention of the House to the fact
that it was intended to do away with the system of assign-
ment, and to employ the convicts on Government
work. That would render the condition of the convicts
in the colonies analogous to lab )ur in the hulks at home,
with this difference, that it would be vastly more expensive
than the best system of prison discipline. That was the
opinion of the Commissioners of the Prison Inquiry. The
want of superintendence and of all means of preventing
crime amongst the convicts in the colonies was attempted
to be remedied by terrifying them from crime, and by pu-
nishing trifling misdemeanours with excessive severity.
Corporal punishments were much resorted to-75 lashes
were frequently inflicted for very slight offences—indeed,
that punishment was a great favourite with the masters,
because it did not deprive them of the labour of the con-
victs to the same extent as chain gangs and solitary con-
' fineinent would. Sir George Arthur said that labour in
the chain gangs waa a punishment of great severity ; from
sun-set to sun-rise the convicts were confined in ox-cara-
vans, with scarcely room to sit down. From sun-rise to
sun-set they work constantly under a military guard
and were punished with great severity for light
faults. The soldiers employed in guarding chain-gangs
were naturally affected in their character by that employ-
ment. It was found that they were sometimes demoralised
by their intercourse with the gang amongst whom they
frequently found old friends and relations. There was no
doubt that tle military thus employed were demoralised
to a great extent, and there were now in the gaol at Syd-
ney a Lieutenant and twenty-one soldiers for criminal
offences. The las: and the greatest of the pul.
nishments was that of the penal settlements.
The evidence taken on the subject of our penal settle-
meats disclosed facts which ho could otherwise never have
credited. The settlements to which convicts were sent,
and that for very trifling offences, were two in number;
the one for Norfolk Island, and the other Port
Arthur. The number of Convicts in those set-
tlements amounted to about 2,000, who, with their
guardians, constituted the only inhabitants. Sir
Francis Forbes, the Chief Justice of Australia, stated
that the experience furnished by those settlements had
proved that transportation is capable of being carried to such
extcntof suffering as to render death desirable, and to induce
many prisoners to seek it under its most appalling aspects.
The same Learned Judge, in his evidence before a Com-
mittee, gave the following extraordinary statement :
" I have known many cases in which it appeared that con-
victs had committed crimes which subjected them to execu-
tion for the mere purpose of being sent up to Sydney,
to be tried," and he added, " that he believed those parties
contemplated the certainty of execution, and that they de-
liberately acted from au expectatien of it." In reply to his
(Sir W. Molesworth's) Hon. Friend the Member for
Liskeard, the same Judge said that if it was his own
case ho should not hesitate to prefer death under
any form to such a state of endurance as was exhibited in
Norfolk Island. In confirmation of these opinions, he
( Sir W. Molesworth) might quote the high autho-
rity of Sir R. Bourke, who stated that he had es-
rablished a criminal judicature in Norfolk Island for the
purpose of depriving the convicts of being tried in Sydney.
It was not to be wondered at that the convicts were driven
by desperation to mutiny. In the last mutiny nine convicts
were killed, and twenty-nine subsequently condemned to
death, of whom eleven were executed. Chief Justice
Burton was sent to Norfolk Island to try them, and he had
described a strange scene which took place. When the
names of those who were to die, and of those who were
reprieved were read—the former receiving the
news with joy at relief from their sufferings
—the latter with mute despair. The extremes of misery
and immorality met in Norfolk Island, and rendered it
without a parallel in the world, except in Port Arthur,
the penal settlement of Van Diemen's Land, of which Sir
George Arthur stated that he had known convicts commit
murder in order that they might be removed to Hobart
Town for trial, though they knew that death would follow
in a fortnight ; and in Norfolk Island it had been
stated, on the best authority, that three-fourths
of the convicts were guilty of unnatural offences.
New with regard to the influence of transportation as a
punishment. The object of all punishment must be to
deter from crime—pcena in paucas ut metus in omnes—
but the fact was that the sentence of transportation
might paraphrase thus : " You, the culprit, are to
be removed from your native land, into one with
which you are comparatively unacquainted you
are to be separated from your friends for many
yoars, perhaps for ever, and compelled labour for the
benefit of others." Whereas the two first threats of ba-
nishment and separation from friends, whatever might
have been their effect in former days, had now lost their
penal terrors, for this simple reason, that con-
victs were no longer sent to an unknown and strange
land, but to a country inhabited by thousands of
their companions in crime, and to which thousands
of emigrants were hastening, as to a land of promise.
It not unfrequently happened that while a Judge was pass-
ing sentence of transportation on a convict, in the same
town and at the same time, an active agent for emigra-
tion was praising the soil and climate of the very
country to which the convict was to be transported as a
punishment—representing the advantages of that country
in the most glowing colours, and proffering the means to
persons to emigrate to that very country. Could trans-
portation, then, be considered as a punishment likely to
produce terror in the minds of the criminal population ?
Last year on the shores of the penal colonies there
had been disembarked front this country 5,000 crimi-
nals, and 10,000 voluntary emigrants. Many of them became
servants together in the saline families, and labourers in the
same fields, to the confusion of all notions of punish-
ment, and to the destruction of all ideas of morality.
Could there be any greater anomaly in legislation than
this? The proper effect of punishment
ecosiild
only be obtained by the amount 0., apprehn len
produced on the minds of the criminal popu•
lation. Now, the only effect that was likely to be pro.
duced on the minds of the criminal population by the
punishment of transportation was that which would
be produced by regarding
it as a life
of penal
labour and privations, but who could tell the amount of that
labour and of those privations ? The condition of a transported
convict was a mere chance, and ranged between every
condition from that of a well-treated servant to
that of an oppressed and ill.used slave.—( Hear, hear. )
He believed that the amount of punishment inflicted on the
transported convict was greater than
was generally known
or imagined in this country. He believed they were
many of them subjected to a system of terror;
but it was unproductive terror, gratuitous terror, because
it was impossible to make the criminal population of this
country understand exactly what was the amount of punishd-
ment inflicted in the penal colonies.
this
by the criminal population in
the proceededmors)t.'fortunate in
and who consequently
Thec unt accounts recciy
generally from those who had been
this lottery of punishment,
described the country in favourable colours.
in the allotment of punishment were the more unfortunate
in their communications with this country, wereinclined,
he believed, to misrepresent their sufferiiigs, p‘avritlliychwihthada
Even those who
view of revenging themselves on the Ia
punished there, by bringing them . into discredit,
and partly with a view of getting
companions
in their misfortune; but even if they were fully
acquainted with both, the criminal population would
only regard transportation as a most unequal
be
punish-
ment, as a lottery in which there were manye shouldprizes and
many blanks, and, judging l
from experience,
of opinion that, like all gamblers, they would be actuated
deterred
by by the hope of obtaining the prizes than
reason eterretransportation he should nut
by the fear of the blanks. For this
hesitate in saying that transportation failed as a punishment;
independent of the production of terror, which was one of
the main objects of punishment, there were other subordi-
nate objects which punishment ought to eff2et with regard
the criminal to commit crime during his punishment.
to the offender himself. It ought to render it difficult for

It ought to improve hie morel eheracter, and render crime
distasteful to him ; and lastly, it ought, :f possible, to place
him ultimately in a position in which he will not be exposed
to strong temptations to relax good habits. In every one
of these cases transportation had been proved to be totally
ineffective. The immense number of summary convictions
to which he had referred proved that an enormous amount
of crime was committed by convicts while under punish-
ment. The terrors of Norfolk Island had not prevented
convicts from committing crimes that caused them to be
sent three or four times. With regard to the reformatory
effects of transportation, the Attorney-General of New South
Wales had stated that it was quite ineffective, and every
person that had been examined, and every document that had
been brought before the Committee proved that to be the
case. In fact, the convict was placed in a situation where
vice was the rule, and virtue the exception. Having dis-
posed of that part of the case, the next question was, what
was the effect of transportation on the moral state of so-
ciety in penal colonies ? And an answer was afforded
to that by the return which had been made, where
it was shown that crimes of the worst descrip-
tion were perpetrated in those colonies.—( Hear, hear.)
A greater portion might be attributed to transporta-
tion, because it was evident that, in communities like
those of Australia where there was a great demand for
labour, and wages were high, a vast amount of
crime could only be attributed to the demoralized
character of the population, and not to those economical
causes which produced want and misery in intensely popu-
lated countries. In order to show the amount of crime in
the penal colonies, he would refer to the number of sum-
mary convictions in Van Diemen's Land. In 1834 the
community of Van Diemen's Land was very small. Its
population did not exceed 40,000, of whom 16,000 were
convicts, 1,000 soldiers, and 23,000 free inhabitants. In
that year the number of summary convictions amounted to
15,000. The summary convictions in New South Wales
were nearly the same in proportion to the population as
in Vats Diemen's Land. In order to complete his account
of those colonies, it was necessary to refer to the convic-
tions before the Supreme Court of Quarter Sessions.
The House should remember that convicts were not
tried before that Court, except for offences for which the
penalty of death was provided. In the average of seven
years, from 1829 to 1835 inclusive, during which the
population of those colonies did not amount to more than
50,000, the number of convictions was as one in a hundred ;
the convictions in England were about one in a thousand,
and in Scotland one in 1,300. A large proportion of
those convictions were for offences of very great magni-
tude. The number of sentences of death a-year averaged
132, the executions 52, and the number of sentences of
transportation 369. In seven years in those two commu-
nities, whose population did not exceed half of that of
Westminster, the number condemned to death was 523,
the number executed 362, and the number transported
2,553, without including the convicts summarily trans-
ported, or who had had their sentences extended.
According to Captain Maccoriochie and others crime was
on the increase in those communities. In order to give a
more accurate notion of the state of crime than mere
figures would display, he would read a passage from the
Report of the Transportation Committee, in which it was
calculated what would be the state of crime in England if
it was in the same proportion to the population as in those
colonies :—" The number of robberies in New South
Wales exceeded the number of crimes of every kind
committed in England. The murders were as common as
petty larceny in the mother country. In order to give an
idea of the amount of crime, let us suppose that the
17,000 offenders of all grades, who were last year convicted
in England, were guilty of capital crimes—that of those
7,000 were executed, and the remainder were transported
for life. That was precisely the state of crime in the Aus-
tralian colonies, in proportion to its population as com-
pared with England." That this statement was not exag-
gerated they had the unimpeachable authority of Mr. Jus-
tice Burton, who said that if one could look down upon
that community, it would seem as if the main business of
the whole population was the commission of crime
and its punishment, and as if the whole co-
lony was in motion towards the Courts of Justice.
In a great proportion of crimes committed in
New South Wales the authors were not disco-
vered. This was not to be wondered at, when it was
considered that the limits of the colony embraced an area
as large as that of England, and that some thousands of
shepherds and stockmen were scattered over it, with arms
in their hands. Bushranging was one of the most com-
mon offences—that is to say, runaway convicts, mounted
and armed to the teeth, rode up to the doors of the settlers,
and committed robbery in the open day, the convict set-
tlers looking on with indifference. The most atrocious
cruelties were often committed. The year before last, in
New South Wales, a tribe of natives had been living in
the utmost tranquillity. Twelve armed convicts seized
thirty of them, and slaughtered them in cold blood. The
first jury that tried them refused to convict, though
the evidence was unequivocal. But a second jury did not
refuse to convict, and they were executed, in spite of every
effort to save them: Ie Van Diemen's Land, too, the
most avt ful cruelties were committed by the convict shep.
herds, who often killed the men to obtain possession of the
women among the natives, so that now the aboriginal po-
pulation was almost exterminated. Though these crimes
were so enormous, a moment's reflection on the nature of
the materials there to be dealt with, would dissipate all won-
derment. The number of convicts transported since the es-
tablishment of the colony, was 100,000, of emigrants 60,000;
transportation had also produced a great disproportion of
!CRC:4 ; out of 100,000, only 13,000 were women ; and on
the last census the proportion of males to women was as
7 or Bto 1. Why had not more women been transported ?
The Colonial authorities found it impossible to devise
r.ny mode of punishment for the female convicts which was
not too severe ; and the conduct of the female convicts
was so bad, that they could not be received into respect-
able houses. Penitentiaries were the only modes of
punishment at all suited to women ; but the eolony af.
forded no means for the establishment of such institutions.
It had been recommended that the female convicts should
be by all means encouraged to marry. The difficulties
besetting this question made the most valid arguments
against the whole system—that if this country continued
to send thousands of its worst offenders to those colonies,
to become first slaves, and then citizens, they must be
accompanied by women, or the most disgusting vices
already, it was to be feared, too prevalent, would in-
crease. Attempts had been made, under the direction of
Mr. Marshall, to conduct free Female Emigration. The
result might have been anticipated—that the streets of
Sydney were crowded by prostitutes. How could it be
otherwise ? Would respectable females go alone to a
settlement of convicts ?—( Hear, hear.) Parties who
were pecuniarly interested in the continuance of transpor-
tation had endeavoured to deny its bad effects, but they
only thus showed their moral insensibility.—( Hear, hear.)
The free settler was haunted and surrounded by crime.
Convicts in chains were every where seen : his very ser-
vants were convicts ; the women, at the best, drunken,
depraved creatures ; the men, hardened ruffians.—( Hear,
hear.) Crimes of the most awful description were
often perpetrated in respectable families: in one case,
two girls, under fourteen years of age, had, it was
discovered, criminal connection with, not one, but all the
convicts on their father's establishment, which was an ex-
tensive one ! These men were hung for rape, and many
more might have been, had they been tried. The settlers
could not obtain the convicts' labour but by submitting to
their vicious propensities, or by using the Magistrates' au-
thority with the punishment of the lash. This horrible
picture of the state of society ix the colony was not more
true than disgusting. Slavery always tended to pervert
and degrade the character of the master, and most espe-
cially convict slavery, where none of the softening or molli-
fying influences could exist, which in other cases might
have been observed. What, then, was the benefit of keep-
ing up such a system ? Did it diminish crime? No ; it
did but transport crime to a new and growing settlement,
there a hundredfold to increase.__( Hear, hear.) Bad as
a punishment, it was still worse as a system of colonization.
—( Hear, hear.) Could the present system be at all
amended ? He believed not ; and he strongly advised the
total abandonment of it. He was sorry that the Noble
Lord tho Secretary for the Colonies was not for aLolishing
but for modifying the system. The Noble Lord par-
ticularly recommended the removal of some of the con-
victs to Norfolk Island. Why, that was liable to all the
objections to transportation, and the NoblelLord himself ad-
mitted it open to the main objection. He trusted the
Noble Lord would reconsider this plan. What punish-
ment was to be inflicted on the convicts in Norfolk
Island ? Not the existing system, it was to be hoped, after
the descriptions which had been heard.—( llear, hear.) If
corporal punishments were to be discontinued, there must
be a good gaol system. How were the gaols to be
built in Norfolk Island, a small island without harbours
except for boats, in the midst of the Southern Ocean, more
than a thousand miles from land? The convicts could not be
made to erect them without the lash, and free labour could
not be obtained but at the highest expense. The cost would
far exceed that of building, better gaols in this country rind
better penitentiaries.—( Hear, hear.) Prison inspectors,
again, had been appointed in this country. Why ? Be-
cause it had been found that uncontrolled authority could
not be relied on, even at home. Could it be more de-
pended upon abroad ?—( Hear, hear.) Then, had the ne-
cessity for sending women out with the convicts been con-
sidered ? To answer all these leading objections all that
could be urged was that the island was fertile, It was
said by some that the cultivation of the island might he ad-
vantageously carried on. He utterly disbelieved this, be-
cause all similar attempts under such circumstances had
failed, and because the island was very small ; and more-
over the expense of provisions there would necessarily be
much higher than in England.__( Hear, hear.) Now as
to the totally new plan of punishment alluded to in the
Noble Lord's speech, the social scheme of making one man
responsible for the good conduct of five or six others, it
outraged every notion of human nature, and seemed indeed
to be a mockery; it was punishing the innocent for the
guilty.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He would now state
what he himself proposed—that offenders should
be punished in this country by a good system
of gaols and penitentiaries—a system much more effec-
tual, and much less demoralizing- than that of transporta-
tion. The system very much advocated lately was the se-
parate system, which possessed most of the qualities of a
' good punishment, and, especially, was exempt from the
disadvantages arising from facilities for depraved associates,
and tended rather to moral improvement, making labour,
which was permitted, not imposed, an incentive to honest
industry in a future career. The main objection to the
plan was expense. Now since the establishment of the trans-
portation system, the cost to this country had been up-
wards of eight millions, at the rate of near 901. to each
individual—( Hear, hear.) The country had no idea
of time expense which the system incurred, before the in-
quiries of the Transportation Committee. The estimates
were formed upon the supposition that seven years of
transportation were sufficient. He recommeudcd the sepa-
rate system, in which case the convicts could be kept far
more cheaply than in any other way. The convicts would
cost twice as much in Ne w South Wales as in England,
and four times as much if they we re placed on Norfolk Wand.
The cost of the system he proposed would be much less
than any that had hitherto been adopted, and it ought,
therefore, to be considered. No system of punishmer:`
was perfect unless it improved the condition of the of-
fender, and it had been shown that transportation had not
that effect. The Archbishop of Dublin had long been

against transportation, and in that Right Rev. Prelate's
steps he :amsitsly followed. By the separate system ha
thought much good might be done towards the moral elm-
. racter of the offender, and it might be effected at consi-
derably less expense than the present system of transporta-
tion. Ile entreated the House not to be led away by any
notion of economical punishment—all attempts that had
been made with respect to that had turned out to be in-
effectual. If they had listened to Mr. Bentham, they
might have had the best system in the world of secondary
punishments, and they might have been a model for man-
kind, instead of, as they were now, a disgrace.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) It had been said, that if convicts
were imprisoned in this country the Home Office would he
beset with memorials, which could not be the case when
offenders were sent to a great distance. To that he would
say that the application for mitigation must be either well
founded or not—if it was well founded then great injustice
was done to the convict in removing him to such a dis-
tance, and if the punishment was due, then a Minister of
the Crown would fail in his duty if it was not carried out.
But if it was said that this power must exist as long as the
Home Office had the power to pardon them, he would say
that power ought to be curtailed as soon as possible, and
given to some judicial party. He would now conclude by
saying a few words with respect to the effect of the aboli-
tion, of transportation on the wealth of the penal colonies.
Many persons with most proper feelings would not emigrate
to these colonies, because they did not wish to be con-
founded with felons, and to the honour of the poorer
classes he stated that there was a great and growing dis-
like in them to emigrate to penal colonies, and this feel.
ing, through the exertions of the Archbishop of Dublin,
was daily increasing in Ireland. The result, therefore,
of continuing transportation would be to prevent
emigration to penal colonies, and, therefore, a proportionate
decrease of their wealth. He thanked the House for the
patience with which it had heard him; he had passed over
a great deal of what lie intended to have said, fearing to
trespass on the time of the House ; but he thought he had
said enough to prove, first, that transportation was a very
bad punishment, that it was not susceptible of any improve-
ment, and ought to be abolished ; secondly, that the best
substitute for it was the penitentiary system ; that that sys-
tem would not be more expensive than the modification
proposed ; that a large additional outlay of public money
was not required for it ; and, lastly, that for the sake of
the moral well-being and prosperity of the penal colonies,
a systematic emigration was required in the manner he
had proposed. The Hon. Baronet concluded, amid much
cheering, by moving--
1. That the punishment of transportation should be
abolished, and the penitentiary system of punishment
be adopted in its stead, as soon as practicable.
2. That the funds to be derived from the sales of waste
land in New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land, ought
to be anticipated by means of loans on that security, for
the purpose of promoting extensive emigration to those
colonies.
Lord J. RUSSELL—The House, he was sure, would
feel deeply indebted to the Hon. Baronet, not only for
the exposition of his views upon the subject upon that
occasion, but also for the long and continued attention
he had given to it; and, in paying that tribute to the ex-
ertions of the Hon. Baronet, he could not but lament that
a subject of so much importance should have attracted so
little of the attention of the House.—(Hear, hear.) La-
menting that want of attention, lie still felt it his duty,
without pretending to follow the Hon. Baronet throughout
his details, to give to the House the general views which
he had been led to adopt upon the subject. With re-
spect to the practical measures to be adopted, he need not
labour much at explanation, for, during the course of
last year ho had stated what practical measures ought to
be adopted in consequence of the Report of the Commit-
tee. Seeing the various alterations which had taken place
with respect to the punishment of crime in this and other
countries, it was necessary to consider what should be the
general object with regard to punishment. The first and
most important principle was to deter from offences ; and
the next in importance, no doubt, was the reformation of
offenders. Now, with respect to the first object, to deter
from crime, it seemed the obvious course to pur-
sue, that in order to deter from crime they ought
to have the mast severe punishments the most
unrelenting punishment for all offences—the most cruel
excess of punishment for even slight offences—to carry
out that principle to its extent, they must apply the ex-
treme punishment of death to even trifling offences ; and
if the crime of picking of pockets were to be extirpated
through the application of the punishment of death to that
offence, it would be a question for those taking that view
of the question—they might argue very fairly that even
that severity ef punishment was justifiable. But the re-
sult had always been exactly the contrary ; when they at-
tempted to inflict those severe punishments, they certainly
engaged the sympathies of mankind, but it was in favour
of the offender—( Hear, hear.) By that means they de-
feated their own objects; therefore, in that point of view
the attempt to deter from crime by extreme severity of
punishment, if attempted to be carried out to its full ex-
tent would utterly fail. Again, there was another party
who looked only to the reformation of the offender—
those who took only that view of the question of course
must attempt to prove it by the cases of particular offen-
ders. For instance, the manner in which they most con-
firmed a criminal in his disposition, was by inflicting de-
grading punishment upon him—by associating him with
others who were degraded, and so closing up the paths to
affluence and honour, or even to labour. The proposition
was made by the Archbishop of Dublin: he said give a
criminal—a person convicted of crime—the means of going
to a colony, not a penal one—afford him a passage to that
free colony, and allow him to make his way with an un-
stained character, no doubt that individual would be more
likely to be a reformed man, rather than if lie had been
put in prison, and stigmatized as a convicted felon ; but
the question was, whether, in so doing, they would not de-
feat the general objects they had in view, and promote
crime by this extreme lenity and indulgence to those who
were guilty of offences. The most likely way to lead to
reformation was, to remove men from temptation, and
place them in affluence. Many of those now convicted
were living in wretchedness, and almost in despair; they
were tempted to steal, to break open houses, and commit
other crimes; but would not others be tempted to commit
crime if they gave every criminal the means of setting up
a shop, and enabling him to dispose of so many goods as
to keep him above temptation; by so doing would they
not tell the community which was virtuous that they would
be placed in a disadvantageous position, as compared to
those who had been convicted of crime ; they would induce
to an increase of crime; they would have a greater num-
ber of criminals; their means would fail, and they must
again revert to severe punishment. As an example of how
such a principle would work, he might state that, while
at Liverpool some time ago, the Governor of the gaol was
lamenting the number of boys who were under his care,
and suggested that many of them might be well disposed
of by being apprenticed to the sea. It happened that a
large shipowner was by him at the time, and he (Lord
John Russell) asked him whether there was not a greater
number of boys of respectable parents offering themselves
than could find employment? His answer was yes; every
day they had applications made by the sons of most re-
spectable parents in Liverpool, who, although in poverty,
were unstained by crime. Now, if the criminal boys were
to be allowed to obtain a livelihood by such means, they
must displace so many of those innocent boys who were
anxious for work: they would be starved; an injustice
would at once be done, and they would be tempted to
crime, which the friends of that principle were most anxi-
ous to put down. He was convinced that either of those
principles carried out to the extreme would defeat itself ;
it was only by a prudent or temperate, and a moderate
course of considering, from time to time, what was the
necessary severity of punishment ; it was only by combining
the two principles that they could hope to be successful in
their exertions. The Hon. Baronet, along with the
Archbishop of Dublin, seemed inclined to go too far with
the latter of these principles; but lie would be enabled to
show that it would lead to great expense—it would entail
great bur lens upon the country, and, in the end, would be
very doubtful as a system by which criminals might be
reclaimed. With respect to the subject of transportation,
he thought the Hon. Baronet, in the previous part of his
speech, had confounded the transportation of the present
day with what it was some years ago. With regard to
assignment, he entirely agreed with the Hon. Baronet.
He considered it a plan of pure slavery ; it was assigning
a man to a master, and subjecting him to all the caprice
or the horrors of the insane folly of that master ; or, if
the master chose to make the convict a favoured servant,
he would place him in a situation superior to a steward or
a cook in this country ; but if the master chose to
dislike him, or if he was of a tyrannical temper,
it was subjecting him to all the evils, the
punishment, and the coercion of slavery.__( Hear.)
He therefore considered assignment as a system which
ought not to be continued, nor was that any new opinion
of his, for he had stated it, in a letter directed by him to be
written on the 15th of April, 1837, before the Transporta-
tion Committee was appointed. These were his views
then—he had not altered them sinca--he quite agreed with
the Hon. Baronet that assignment tended to degrade the
character both of the master and of the slave. Having that
opinion of the evils of assignment, he had to state that or-
ders had been given during the course of last year which
put an end to any fresh assignment, so that now the ques-
tion assumed a different shape. The question was, whe-
ther the grea:er part of the persons convicted of serious
offences being no longer for the most part brought to ca-
pital punishment should be punished by imprisonment in
the Penitentiary at home, or be conveyed to a distant set-
tlement, and punished by labour on public works. In that
respect he followed the opinions of the Committee on
Transportation. Transportation to New South Wales
and the, settled parts of Van Diemen's Land should be
discontinued.—( Hear, hear, hear.) In the number sent
to New South Wales there had been a decrease last
year, in consequence of the directions that were given
by the Secretaries for the Colonies and Home Depart-
ments ; those orders had been continued during the pre-
sent year, and an Order in Council was now in preparation
in which transportation to New South Wales was ordered
to be discontinued after the Ist of August next. 1,. was
intended that convicts should be sent to the unsettled part
of Van Diemen's Land, Tusman's Peninsula, Norfolk
Island, and the Bermudas. Coders had been given, ac-
cording to the spirit of the resolutions of the Committee,
by which the convicts would be separated from the settlers
in all the places where it could be carried into effect; then
came the question whether they should follow the plan re-
commended by the Committee, or the plan recommended
by the Hon. Baronet, for they were essentially different.
Sir W. MOL ES WORTH had not agreed with the
recommendation of the Committee on that point.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Probably not, but it had
been agreed to in the presence and with the concurrence
of Sir R. Peel, Lord Howick, Sir G. Grey, Ale. C.
Buller, and other persons as well qualified to give an
opinion upon such matters as aay Members of that
Howe. Ile would now consider what was the difference
between the plan of the Hon. Bart. and that recommended
by the Committee. The plan of the Hon. Bart. was,hi
the first place, that penitentiaries should beerieimcn d
in is
did
country on a plan which, he concurred with i i
sepirate cells dd, ,
in which for a certain period eachn' was the
best plan on which they could be constructed, anice,lmy,,icotf
should undersso his punishment.
The
toplan w
altered by thewith re
Government transportation. a s 1
'ral'
In the first place, the number of convicts sent abroad was

EVENING EDITION.„..

much siteiheisigei. The greater number sentenced for
sliort periods were confined at home, a large number were
sent to Bermuda, who returned home, but a larger number
were sent to that place which no doubt afforded great facility
for settling afterwards in Van Diemen's Land, and afforded
a temptation to them not to return to this country.
Now referring to what he had first stated, he begged to
say he thought it quite necessary in the first place to adopt
some punishment which should have the effect of deterring
from crime. He thought transportation, as hitherto prac-
tised, deficient in this respect. It was so stated by those
who defended the system, by Sir G. Arthur and others,
and that with respect to any person of skill and talent,
whatever might have been his offence, in consequence of
his abilities he became at once a favourite servant or con-
fidential clerk. Now they proposed, on the contrary, to
adopt a plan of confinement in a penitentiary, or hard
labour at the public works—that the person convicted,
whoever he might be, should undergo a fixed period of
punishment, which he thought absolutely necessary, par-
ticularly for such skilful criminals, whom he was sorry to
see attracted more sympathy than any others. From his
oflieial eeperience at the Home Office he knew there was
always a greater interest about such persons, when they bad
committed crimes, than about men of a lower sphere.
opinion was, that if crimes were to be punished these ought
to be specially punished—that persons of education who com-
mitted crimes were more proper subjects of punishments
than those whose ignorance might afford some palliation of
their guilt, and that a mistaken principle was acted upon
in this respect in New South Wales, for these persons re-
ceived all the favours and rewards, and the ignorant, wh°
had received no moral or religious education, all the seve-
rities. He therefore proposed for all offenders that a Cer:
tarn portion of severe punishment should be inflicted, ht!'
after that let them consider the position in which the cri-
minal was to be left. He thought they ought to consider
two objects, carrying neither to excess, but at the same
time keeping both in view; therefore he said and maintain-
ed with respect to all persons who had received a sentence
of the Judges in consequence of guilt, they should carry
into effect a certain degree of punishment, and after that...
consider what treatment would be most likely to save the of
fenders in future from a recurrence of guilt. It was our
t
duty, if we possibly could, without surrendering any grey
interests of society, to give the criminal an opportunity 1
reforming himself, and attending to those obligations which
'
he had so long neglected. Then if they discharged those
men from a penitentiary, they went into 06°,3'
which was already full of persons seeking employment,
so full that parsons of good character were not able to
obtain it. If they poured into such a society men with
stains upon their charactor—if they placed 601 at
the same time in the midst of those same temptations
which originally led them into crime, there was certainly
great probability that, in the first place, they would Pt
driven to the same course of crime, for want of hea
the
employment ; and, next, that they would be subject t° 5
temptations which formerly mieled them. Then what wa_
the state of those individuals in the Australian colonies
when there was so great demand for labour, that it was
said if they sent them 12,000 persons in the course ei 4
year they would not fill up the demand for labour. ,
such men were in remote 'parts of the settlement taking
care of flocks of sheep, assisting building, or guardiL
the settlement from injury, they would receive rewards I°3;
their labour which would be amply sufficient to make the_.
comfortable, and give them good maintenance, though r!,
mote from the country from which they originally carne
Then having placed these men, in the first
punishment of leaving this country, having removed tha It;
rom their guilty companions, and also from their friends. °,_,
relations, if they left them in that situation that they could, °Ye
industry, obtain the rewards of labour, there was greatress° f
to believe they would not again fall into those courses ee,
crime, and that they would be recovered from those vieht
place, under the
into which they had been originally led. He t,b°,,,tlq'
therefore, there was sonic reason for not abandoning
im-
prisonments in distant colonies. He thought there Was
sonic reason for saying they would alter the plan of ,
trans-
portation and assignment as a slave, to a tyrannic orvinr.
dulgcnt master. That this country being already. 0, ei_
stocked with labour, it;was of importance to the criminal,
and one of the means of his reformation to send himt;
those distant colonies. The Committee went on to s,s,Y_,
.
that rules should be established for the reeulation Ofir:o
ciplinc. These had been adopted in the colonies, and a,
he
doubt in several respects they had worked well, h"'
must observe, the lion. Baronet hardly treated this sub-
ject ject fairly when he adverted to particular instances whist
had taken plates in the colonies, for when be said these
criminals were subject to a certain system of discipline,
and then gave the regulation of that disciplines it did not
follow that system was defective in Van Diemen's Land or
Norfolk Island, more than in England or seotland.
The system of imprisonment in this country twennuatv
years ago, was disgraceful to a civilized nation,
e,
yet he did not conceive this formed an argument
against the punishment of imprisonment. The fluent
Baronet laid a good deal of stress upon the sYst
on
adopted in Norfolk Island. No doubt that system was e,h,
of great severity, which made many wish rather for deaS_d
but that system was changed for the opposite extreme, and
those employed in agriculture returned from labour laden
with the fruits with which the island abounded; and, 70
far from its operating to prevent crime, persons were
found there, for the third or fourth time, who had en
mitted crimes to get back again. This was the result e
the system opposed to that the Right Hon. Baronet had
referred to, as shown in the Report of Major Arnold.
Deputy Assistant to the Commissioner-General. It was not,
therefore, at all a part or consequence of the plan of sending
that man to distant settlements, that the plan of employment
as
Imv h
ttuhraevme
etdhyo steh
odefects f
ea
cntyssil%• h,
he
er er e
v e else; at the public works there should be defective. They
t htehye
fbechtittedr
tmb
condle,
The Hon. Baronet had made various other statements wss
regard to the system of transportation, and with regar-
A tv
the inequality of the sentence,•
and there was this in:q-a
lity with regard to a number of prisoners who were s7nutlaT
artle
the hulks; but this must not be judged of from P
instances, for some had occurred within his Own eixePinte
rionce, which, if mentioned, would be calculated to elich
even feelings of horror. There was one subject oten weeet.
he was disposed to agree with the Right Hon. atoia
It was, that a great defect had prevailed fora long L.en.
with regard to the subject of religious instructd..67,
—( Hear, hear, hear.) It appeared that from lbcieu
to 1808, only two ministers of religion had .
sent to the convicts, and it had not been originallY
' ded to send ministers of religion at alien Noce It certainer
appeared to him the best chance of making an impression;,
on the convicts during the time of their
making them less liable of recurring to crime after. 10us
discharge, was taking care they should receive redigtho
instruction. It appeared to him that a great defect
taken place in former times in this respect, but this defect
0,
was not continued ; on the contrary, the Secretary
se'
State had taken pains to repair it, and for this PurPoust
prisonment,,h;
great exertions were still made. On the whole he
Committee'
say he concurred rather with the reports of the ith.
of which the Hon. Baronet was Chairman, than with
the proposal which he now made. He thought the
posal of the Committee contemplated makin
alte-
ration in the mode of carrying transportation into effect,snt
but not its total abolition. He thought in the Pre! it
state of circumstances, without saying that hereafterau
might not be found advantageous to abolish transport Ls
altogether, the system best adapted for the present 7e,
that of following the recommendation of the ComnsttLeiu
ta';ing care that show who were sent should have a certain
degree of punishment, and giving them the prospeet,ro
means of obtaining employment after their discharge. an
Hon. Baronet's plan would impose upon the country
g great
expenditure of nearly two millions for the erection of e
Peni-
tentiaries, and a much further expense of course for. tilx.
maintenance of prisoners, and would leave us after all ea'
posed to have them returned back on society and to all_o'nu
evils which were suffered in France, where these per' a,
formed the worst part of the criminal population.
could not think it advisable at once to incur so large an
expense on such doubtful grounds. The Night
art
nourable Baronet had adverted to another P.
of the subject—that of emigration to Australcol.
He trusted they should reform the general state of. -ee,
ciety in the Australian colonies ; and, at the same "%To
give other great advantages to the free settler. It the
a totally different question whether they would have woe
colonies solely recruited by convicts, whether Pe,rion.
always subject to the strict regulations which the "and
Baronet had quoted, should form at all times a fe°looii
polluted atmosphere, or whether thole persons are
Tar
to form a part of the population, but he would not %era
into the question now. The Hon. Baronet said
,t 11
was a general dislike to go to Australia; certainly
ho
-
he had heard led to an opposite conclusion. tie, ato
lieved there was generally e growing desire to emir as
to Australia rather than to other colonies, but th''''sat
the present time the emigration was not equel to wt'st
it had been of late years. The Hon. Baronet said teat
the Archbishop of Dublin had done much to dissuade Ha
people of Ireland from emigrating to these colonies., lit
should be sorry to believe this. He thought that Rig
Rev. Prelate carried to rather an extravagant length
his opinions with regard to New South r"of
Ireland would have the good sense to see
but he trusted, nevertheless, that the Peel'e • t
advantage they would derive by emigrating the grea
( Hear.) He believed that the Archbishop had not done to
much to prevent emigration as Father Mathew had done
id
encourage it. The Hun. Baronet's resolution w'uto
pledge the House to a loan of 2,000,0001. The H"
would do well not in their House to incur such an obliga-
tion, and without wishing to vote against the abstract pre-
position, he (Lord J. Russell) begged to move the
pre-
vious queStion.
Lord MA HON said he had heard with the greatesth
t
concern of the steps, limited as they had been, whichea
Noble Lord had taken in furtherance of the recant
there.
fo
than of the Transportation Committee. On the best e
believed, that notwithstandin man y evils, the
system
g
con-
sideration he ( Lord Mahon) had devoted to the subject,
,e
t,
' transportation was attended with many counterbaia Lord
advantages. But he must do justice to the Noble
so far as to state, that in fife changes he had nisde,,_ e.
would have had no motives but such as were praiseworthy
wise to
and he ( Lord Mahon) utterly disclaimed any
ith the
make a party or personal attack upon the
The Noble Lord seemed inclined to do away.:
_.lll
transportation system at the very time when the P,rrno
had become the envy of the world, and at the veYt'
when France was endeavcuring to found a penal settlementmust
in New Zealand. No less than 90/. per man
be paid under the proposed alteration of
; system,elean )
in-
stead of the se/. now paid for transportation.—(Ileac.)
_hicht
It should be recollected, that from the vast impels° "
intellectual energies had of late years received,
intellec-
tual to
Noble Lord.
ability or skill which would formerly have rained
eminence now hardly gained subsistence even
so that,
easu_s;
~_
supposing the convict, under the proposed system, to
disposed to enter the paths of industry, in too many ,
those paths would be closed. He believed, therefore, tnaL
the parent state derived great advantage from the systemof transportation, and he believed that the punishment of
transportation had still sufficient terrors to deter offen°era,
had
But it was said with considerable plausibility, that we .0
no right to pour, for our own advantage, a flood of cidrn" _
into our colonial settlements. The Hon. Baronet h(1
drawn a most dreadful picture of the state of society' in
the colonies, owing to the convicts. If that picture were
Would
they who would be the parties to cry out ?
they not be the settlers themselves ?—( Hear, hear. )