The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-17 00:00:00

Right Hon. Gentleman, he did not wish to dwell upon his state-
ment, but had he been in the House, he would have contradicted
everything he had said.—(Laughter.) It had been said that his
object was to promote the interests of the great lines already made,
or in progress, but that was not the object of his Bill. The strong
lines could take care of themselves. The London and Birmingham
of Ireland, the Ulster line, was ten years in dragging its slow length
along ; and after all, only 24 miles bad been completed. On this
line there had been 21,900 passengers against every 13,000 on the
London and Birmingham line. He understood that certain railway
companies had offered better terms than he proposed, if the Govern-
ment would lend assistance, bat his object was to intersect the whole
couutrywith a system of railways, and not to select the best paying lines.
Now, then, taking into accoant the returns for traffic on the Belgian
and American railways, he thought there was an absolute certainty
that not only would the Irish railways be able to repay the Govern-
ment advances, but that they would also realise a very considerable
profit. He thought that the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
Tamworth was quite convinced that the statement made by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, on the authority of some " great un-
known," with respect to the employment of 25 or 30 men per mile
upon the railways, was altogether erroneous. He was quite sure that
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had :not made his statements on
the authority of Mr. Brunel, for he (Lord G. Bentinck) saw, from a
report of that gentleman, that he could employ upon the Stranmore
Railway, a line of seven miles in length, from 700 to 1,000 men.
Then the Hon. and Gallant Admiral the Member for Marylebone
told the House that the Irish labourers were not
capable of performing the work on these railways. There was no
man is the House who had greater respect for the Gallant Admiral
than he had, when in his croper sphere—(Laughter) —and if Com-
modore Connor and General Taylor should succeed in annexing
Mexico, and turn their attention to the British West Indies, or if Prince
Joinville should think proper to sail up the Thames with an arma-
ment, as his Highness once threatened to do, there wes no officer in
the British navy he (Lord G. Bentinck) should wish to see in com-
mand of the fleet more than the Gallant Adrairal.—(Clicers ) But
the moment the Gallant Admiral stepped from the gangway, or got
into the dockyard, or even set his foot on shore, he was as
much out of his element as a fish out of water.—(Cheers.)
lie understood that the Government empowered the Gallant Admiral
to build a steam-ship of war, which he christened the " ildon," but
the jolly tars, for reasons best known to themselves, and which
might be understood by the Ilouse, had rechristened her, and called
her "Drunken Charley,"—(Great laughter.) He received a letter
from Thomastown, which informed him that the relief committee
was a sinecure, except when the weather was too bad to permit the
labourers to work upon the line.—(Hear, hear). He held
also in his hand a letter from a Major Wandesford,
which stated that the works upon the Kilkenny and Waterford
Railway had been stopped for want of funds, and that the strangers
who had been employed there were now going about the country
insisting on obtaining money or food. Ile would entreat the House
to pay attention to this fact—when railways were carried on the
people were employed, and quietness prevailed ; when they ceased,
riot and disorder was the consequence, and the assistance of the
police and military had to be sought for. The Hon. Member for
Cork had stated to the House that 25,010 souls had already pe-
rished from the famine, and that two millions would follow front
the same cause, and front pestilence, and he therefore entreated
that English gentlemen would bear with him whilst lie was endea-
venring to prove his case, and show that the measure
which he proposed was of vital importance, and would em-
ploy the people of that couittry. He had a letter from the secretary
of the Midland Western Railway of Ireland. Ills Hon. Friend the
Member for Shrewsbury had disposed of the railways in the north,
and the Hon. Member for Radnorshire had disposed of the Great
Western and Southern, and it was only for him to deal with the
Waterford and Limerick and Dublin and Mullingar.—(The Noble
Lord then read the letter, which was to the effect that it was a mis-
take to assert that the labourers on that line were not taken from
the locality through which it passed; they were not Scotch or
English, and, with a little practice and better food, they would
.compete with the English and Scotch. The best proof of it was, that
during the harvest the labourer's work declined forty per cent., and
the engineer was obliged to grant some indulgence that the work
might not interfere with saving the harvest. There had been
a strike because labourers had been brought in from Ros-
common; there was employment far 3,200 men a-week, and they
could only employ 6,000 additional for the next fifteen months
for the line to Athlone. There was a plan for an ex-
tension front Athlone to Galway which would bisect Ireland, and if
this measure was carried it would ensure the completion of it, in-
stead of its being unfinished for years, like the Dublin and Drog-
heda and Ulster lines. He wished to call the attention of the
Honourable Member for Roscommon, that this line would traverse
his county, and unless this measure passed there was no prospect
of that county's having a railway for years. There was fish
caught on the coast of Galway to the amount of 4,0001b5. per day.
He had a return of the quantity of fish carried by the Midland
Counties Railway in the last year from Mull, Whitby, and Scar-
borough, and it amounted to 95,002 tons ; which, at 3d. a pound, or
3s. 6d. a stone, would give the value of 266,000/. ; and much of
which, but for the railway, would have been wasted.—(Cries
of " Hear, hear.") Ile had a letter from Mr. Stephenson, the
engineer, which was to the effect that the assertion that 23 or 30
men a mile would be sufficient to complete any railway in two or
three years was so monstrous that it could not have been stated by
any competent engineer. The Birmingham line occie ied four years,
and ten to fifteen thousand men. On the Manchester and Leeds
Railway, 10,100 men had been employed five years, being 200
men per mile. Much the same had been the case on the North
Midland, ani other lines. The cost per mile of a line was mainly
spent in local labour, in the proportion of 10 to 16 out of the gross
cost.—(Hear.) It was, therefore, entirely contrary to fact to say
that England was about to be taxed for the benefit of Ire-
land ; for of the money expended, a considerable portion would be
paid in this country for locomotives and carriages ; Mr. Stephen-
son calculated that one third of the outlay would be thus spent ; the
remaining two-thirds would go to the employ of Irish labour. It had
been objected on the other side, that the effect of this Bill would be to
withdraw the labourers from the fields, and that there would be no
harvest next year. But it had been shown by the reports of the Poor-
, law Commissioners that five times as many labourers were employed
on the land in Ireland as in England ; and yet the proportionate pro-
duce was not near so great.—(Cries of "Divide, divide.") He had now
met all the objections which had been made to the measure, except
that of the Hon. Member for Inverness (Mr. Bailiie), who said that
Scotland asked for eo such loan, though suffering equal distress. Ile
agreed with that Hon. Member in admiring the conduct of Scotch
landlords; but on behalf of Scotland he (Lord George
Bentinck) repudiated the Honourable Gentleman's doctrine. Scot-
land had received a promise of an alteration in the Drainage Act to
enable the landlords to meet their difficulties; and even under the
present Act, while English landowners had borrowed only 250,0001.,
Scotch landowners had borrowed 850,000/.—(Heer, hear.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr.
F. Baring) said the principle of the Bill was a novel one. Why,
a Committee appointed in 1833, of which Lord Althorp, the master
of the Honig entleman opposite at the; time— (Laughter)—was a
member, recommended a loan for Irish railways.—(Hear, hear.).
A Chancellor of the Exchequer had proposed a grant of 6,000,9001.
at a period when commercial credit was at a discount, to be lent,
not on such security as was now offered, but on the credit of the
property of distressed tradesmen. On a former occasion, when
a large loan was proposed by Mr. Pitt, Mr. Fox opposed
It on constitutional grounds, as giving too much power to the
Ministry; but when it came to the vote, he said he had not
heart or nerve enough to go to a division.—(Cheers.) Accounts
from America stated that a design of raising a loan of 23,001,000
dollars had had the effect of raising the valise of the public
securities.—(Laughter.) But they said, because he had stated
the other night " that he had summoned his friends," that
he was therefore making this a party question. He had
not summoned his friends, liowever, until the Prime Minister
bad told him that they had determined to reject his measure.
Neither had he intended any party movement by declaring that he
and his friends were ready to undertake the duty of Government.
I All he had meant was that they would never shrink from the re-
sponsibility which the passing of this Bill might impose upon
them. He (Lord George Bentinck) brought forward this measure
In po spirit of rivalry to the (4overnment. The only wished it
to be auxiliary to their measures, and he trusted they would
AO Ilse it. If they did not, he warned them that when they could
no longer give the key of the granary they must expect to be at-
tacked with the crowbar and the pickaxe. Let them, adopt, there-
fore, this measure. If they declined to carry It oat as a Govern-
meat, they might appoint an unpaid Commission to which his Hon.
Friend the Lord Mayor of York would give his gratuitous services
—(Laughter)—and concerning which he would only say, that If they
would place him at the head of it, he would undertake to carry it out,
and to be responsible for its success at the risk of impeachment.
The Noble Lord, after going into a lengthened statement of the
benefits which would accrue to the starving population of Ireland
from the passing of this Bill, prayed the House to do so. That was
his only prayer, and one which he should use if it were the last
time that he should ever have to address that House or any other
mortal assembly. (The Noble Lord sat down amid loud and pro-
longed cheers.)
Atter a few observations from some Hon. Members,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Although, Sir, I am very unwil-
ling to detain the House from coming :to a division at this late
hour, and although I mean to forbear from attempting to reply
to the speech of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn, yet my
Right Honourable Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer
having had many of his statements attacked, I think it is re-
spectful to the House that, before they come to a decision, I
should state what is the general view (without going into de-
tails) which I take of the condition of this country and of Ire-
land at the present moment, and open the bearing of the Bill
now brought forword.—( Hear.) I will not now go into the
finances of the case; but, without stating particulars, I will say
I generally concur in the view which the Right Honourable
Geritleman the Member for Tamworth takes of our financial
situation at the present moment. This makes any question of
assistance to Ireland extremely serious. But there is another
part of the question which refers to our commercial and soeia

position. There was no such failure in England or in Scotland

except in the islands, as would have made this year a year of suf-
fering or of difficulty to the people of Great Britain ; but, Sir,
the great failure of the potato in Ireland has made it necessary,
in the opinion of the executive Government of this country, to
make a very great effort in order to preserve a large portion of
the people of that country from starving. The consequence
of that effort has been that, instead of a large importation, as
has usually been the case, of food from Ireland to this country,
there has been, in the first place, a much, smaller importation,
and, in the next place, there is a considerable exportation,
which is now going on from this country to Ireland for the
purpose of feeding those whose usual food has entirely
failed. Their means of procuring that food are fur-
nished from the Treasury of this country at the
rate of 800,000/. or 900,0001. per month ; but the
consequence of enabling the people of Ireland in
such large numbers to buy the food which goes from this
country and which comes from foreign countries is, that the
price of food in this country is very greatly enhanced. Not
only that, the consequence of a high price is beginning to
be felt very severely, as it has been felt in former years in
the depression of eur manufactures, and in the want of those
sufficient wages of industry by which the greater part of our
population are maintained. It is, in my opinion, most desirable
not to make that pressure greater than the people of this coun-
try can bear, so as to be able safely to assist their fellow-sub-
jects in Ireland.---( Hear, hear.) I think if we were to press
to a very much greater extent than we are now pressing the
drain upon the resources of this country, we should :Ind chat,
without entirely enabling the people of Ireland to escape the
dreadful consequences of the present famine, we should be dis-
abling the people of England and of Scotland from giving
them that assistance which I am proud to think they are dis-
posed to give. With this view, therefore, of our finances, and
of our commercial and manufacturing position, I have to con-
sider how the means of this country can be best disposed of to
preserve the greatest number of human creatures from perish-
ing.—(Hear, hear.) That, Sir, appears to me to be a very
serious and a very painful, but, at the same time, a true view
of the case. I believe that in the last week not less
than 600,000 individuals have received wages on what are
called the public works in Ireland, representing, pro-
bably, three millions of people. There are a hundred thou-
sand more in the workhouses of Ireland, maintained by
rates. There are thousands and thousands more who are
maintained by private charity in Ireland, and by the exertions
of the resident landowners, many of whom have exhibited an
admirable example of personal sacrifice on behalf of the poorer
classes. I have to consider then, when more than three

millions, say three millions and a half, or even more of persona
are thus living, whether from advances from the Treasury,
whether from rates collected, or whether from subscriptions
and charitable donations—l have to consider whether the pro-
position of my Noble Friend is one that tends directly to
the removal of that distress. Now, Sir, on that point Ido

not think the proposition is effectual in the manner that gen-
tlemen—some of them representing Ireland here, and others in
Ireland—believe it to be. I cannot think so, because while I

see that the monies which are taken from those different

sources are all applied or intended to be applied to the relief
of the most distressed persons, of the most destitute, and of
those most in want of food, I find that the employment given by
railway contractors is naturally to the best labourers, to the
most able-bodied, to those who are best able to bear the hard-
_...

ships of that laborious occupation. My Noble Friend, in the
course of his speech, seemed to contradict a statement made by
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the Limerick and Water-
ford Railway had declined to employ the labourers of the
neighbourhood. I believe my Right Hon. Friend (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) was perfectly correct—that

it amounts to this, not that they refused to employ
the able-bodied labourers where the railway is being carried
on, but they say, and I have the letter of the secretary here,
that they do object to employ the worst class of labourers
and the very destitute poor. What they like to employ are of
course the best and most able-bodied labourers.—( The Noble
Lord then read the letter in question, which was cheered by
Mr. W. R. Collett.) The Hon. Gentleman cheers. 1 have
no doubt from his experience, it is exactly the statement he
Would expect the railway company to make, that they are
ready to employ the able-bodied labourers of the neighbour-
hood, but they do object to that general employment of the
destitute, which to procure, after all, should be the great ob-
ject of the Executive in making their advances. In the course
ovfartihoeesus
statements
thein respect Hon.
tMemberth forloySmunednetrloaf labourndmade
I afforded by railways with which he ceomncperned. I have re-