The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-09 00:00:00

tax the whole British empire to meet it. But.wliat he (Mr.
Roebuck) said was, that no exertion of theirs would efficiently
meet the evil, except a stringent poor-law, and he knew that
that was most distasteful of all things to the Irish landlords.—
( Hear, hear.) He had now, he trusted, given a full and ex-
plicit answer to the flon. and Learned Memblr fur the Uni-
versity of Dublin. In conclusion, this was wh it he wanted—
he wanted to pledge the property of Ireland for the support of
the Irish pocr.

Mr. BELLEW looked upon the calamity which had over-
taken Ireland, and the measures to relieve it, 2.5 distinct front
measures for the permanent improvement ot the country.
They were distinct matters, and should not be mixed up
torzether. He maintained the calamity was (Ale that should be
et by national exertions, as it could not be met by the exer-
,ions of the Irish landlords or the people ot Irelttcd. What-
ver the Irish landlords might deserve, it would 1a..1 most unjust
'o place all the burden upon them, as had been suggeiteet by
;he lion. and Learned Member for Bath. He candidly told
that Hon. Member that a great portion of the money advanced
would never be paid hark by the landlords, nor could they be
expected under the circumstances to do 50.

Mr. HUME said the real question they had to consider
was, the amount of money they should require under
these Bills. He thought the Cnanceilur of the Exchequer had
answered the question fairly, though he (Mr. Hume) cowl
dered some fuller information should hare been given as to the
eltermr measures of the Government. His only Sear was, that
after these measures were carried into effect, the people of Ire-
land would be as badly off as ever.—( Cries of 't Ni, no.")
He maintained such was his opinion, as a great deal of the
money already expended had been spent in a most injurious
manner. lie considered some measure should be agreed to by
which facilities euuld be afforded for the transference of property
in Ireland. Were that done, he was sure capital would flow
into Irelund, and the people be employed in the ordinary man-
ner. He thought the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath
deserved praise instead of blame for the way he had brought
the question before the notice of the House. No satisfaction,
he was persuaded, would be given to the people of England
until a large sad comprehensive measure was introduced to
meet the present state of Ireland.
Lord JOHN MANNERS was of opinion that were the
plan of the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath carried into
effect, the condition of the people of Ireland would not be
much better. That Hon. and Learned Gentleman, it seemed,
had but one plan, which was to mortgage the whole of the
property of Ireland for the support of the poor, a measure
which. if carried out at once, would be very far from meeting
the difficulties of the case. He protested against the senti-
ments of the lion. and Learned Member as being considered
the honest sentiments of the people of England.
Mr. ROEBUCK called the attention of the Noble Lord to
the fact that similar sentiments to those he had expressed had
been enunciated by Hon. Members on his side of the House.
Dr. BOWRING said the real question was not the present
state of Ireland, but its future welfare. It was the ultimate
improvement of that country that the Hon. and Learned
Member for Bath looked to, in the objection he had taken to
the present measures before the House. They were going on
voting one sum of money after another, putting off the evil
day, but they presented no comprehensive scheme for the per-
manent welfare and elevation of the sister country. It would
not do to be voting large sums of money away without such
grants resulting in an improvement in the general condition
of the people. They should look more closely into the state
of Ireland, and see whether the money was likely to be pro-
perly applied or not. Above all, they should give the poor of
Ireland a right of relief from the property of that country.
Sir CHARLES NAPIER considered that the absentee
landlords, who held immense properties in Ireland, were not
doing their duty. He thought that in the extraordinary cir-
cumstances of Ireland, at the present moment, Noble Lords,
and Hon. Gentlemen, who held enormous estates in that
country, should sacrifice their own pleasures and comforts in
London to reside there, ao as to administer to the poor people,
who were starving. It was not necessary for him to say that
the agent could not supply their place. Let them take the case
of a country town in England and the principal resident
gentlemen are absentees. The artisans in that town were
quite neglected, and the business of the place went
to decay. Let them suppose that the Duke of
Devonshire, the Marquis of Lansdowne, and the
other rich proprietors were going to Ireland—would any one
tell him that that was not a proper way to alleviate toe mise-
ries which at present existed there? He did say that they
were called upon to relieve Ireland. He said it was not pos-
sible for them as men, as Christians, to live in comfort and see
and hear of men, and women, and children starving in the
ditches of Ireland. 'I hey had been told by an Hon. Member
between two millions were dying throughout Ireland, and he
thought that some speedy means should be taken to prevent
this calamity.
Lord CLENIENTS would take the liberty of correcting a
' :,tile misapprehension on the part of the Hen. and (Salient
(Lord Clesnents ) did not
most anxious to do their
duty:.:fiial eusmb,
vi thztotetobh:iituat:s.rth(thmitbs'eeehaltari.,Gd,iuesreilhaervssleat,trtesnitidpniTolaokdenrnertdarntsyw.
~wl,.
,aenuntraiteeet t
haft
rwhate:ou
effort,hree e
set imttithil I
the country.
ienip,eaiu
sins:
rtijy,gl.
I hold in my h nd a return, showing that not less than 2' 9,219
persons are charged rates, which are pant by the lessor. Naw,
this was it state of things monstrous in itself, aid it was ren-
dered yet worse by the fact, tha. these lessors were paid no
la nts.
Mr. BERNAL said that the Hon. and Gallant Member's
observations were likely to throw upon a highly respectable
and most praise-worthy class—the absentee landlords of Ire-
land—a degree of public odium which was altogether unde-
served.— (Hear, hear, and laughter.) He contended that these
gentlemen did their duty to their tenantry, and he could in-
stance the case of one nobleman, whose rents in Ireland were
stated to be 30,000/., but he did not receive his rents, and he
spent all his moiley on his estates in that country.—(Laugh-
ter.) He was not at liberty to mention that gentleman's
name, but he was sufficiently known by his truly generous and
noble character.
Sir CHARLES NAPIER explained. He had said, and he
would repeat his expressions, that it would be better for the
absentee landlords, for the Duke of Devonshire, the Marquis
of Lansdowne, and other great proprietors, if they in the
present alarming state of Ireland were themselves to visit
their estates, and see the necessities of the starving poor at-
tended to, instead of trusting them to the tender mercies of
their agents.
After a few words from Mr. ROSS,
The clause was agreed to.
Clause 16 was then agreed to.
On clause 17 being proposed, it was agreed that it be
postponed till the subsequent clauses, referring to the same
topic, should be proposed.
Clause 18 was then agreed to.
On clause 19 being proposed,
to what terms the
Sir G. GREY did not exactly understand
strAinl rge nStHasAiNtVnwnwousltdnowdi.sh that the clause should not be so
the Hon. Gentleman referred.
which
re
fAelrrr.edS Ilt
0A StVh
es ani de n
ei tsswi
tays
ftohrelatt cr
preventingp art
an
h
might have a beneficial interest in the operation of the
Act,who
from being engaged in the provision of food.
A 11•
d
Mr. SHAW left the matter to the consideration of the
the
t er
& c
ell ea su ms ea h,
taenrdamferwHw.arGdrsaftrtoamn, Colonel Rawdon, Mr. M. J. O'Con-
nelGovernment ; and the clause was agreed to.
Clauses 20 to 23 were passed.
The House then returned to the 17th clause.
thoMrepallyUmAelnEt oifngthuieremd
Sir R. FERGUSON wished to know whether there was
any means provided for the difficulty of providing the money'
relief
of the
Pailsri.ee Het
Sir G. GREY said that the only difficulty was in Par
nnwehyler there was any provision for
the interest, not in borrowing the money from the Treasury.
Mr. HUME wished to know why there should be any
alteration in the terms of clause.
takSeirthGe
c.,)GnsßidEeeititohnoounghtthethbartinthgeingbeutpteorfptlhaen 40ourltd. be to
Mr. EVELYN DENISON said that the granting ofun-
un-
limited grants from the' Treasury ought always to be avoided,
and in the terms of which he had given notice,
that some limitation ought to be placed on these grants• th
the
House had nothing like a full statement laid before it
great
production of Ireland. If he understood rightly
portion of the country was occupied for grazing P,%larir'clay,
anti it appeared from the report of Captain , '
ar, that
which was made on the 16th of October last }tee
d from
butter, of which a great quantity was
"1"r now sell-
Ireland, was formerly sold at 60s. or 70s. a cwt., Ireland were
ing at 9es. If this were the case, many parts otidbe
only lie thought
e
well able to support themselves, and they wou
Ipuadssinedg themselvesthe iii
tl in i
tasndpretenetivisntgatet.heiHr
ec=etone
tiaoyinf 00,1f-tibyt. : Yea
few words, rid would conclude by moving the d
I.:en-rein,' moveo( in
thehie ha
dhoep t iho and of giventhose
u''t'
terms,iee -
House to support it. The H in. Gentleman ".'he Gemees-
" That in no case shall the sum so advance(' ' , A
bysum nose. by
stoners of her %larsty's Treasury exceed the a
or elect oat
rate or voluntary. c.oitribotioli within the n"`"
divetion. Friend would
Mr. LAI:OI.3CHERE trusted that his Ilen•
_.....,5e0t would
consoler
the painful positi,,n in which the Gover""'
He' quite aareed 111
be pleeee if his proposition were adopted.
'':'h"e-reliet of the
ty
e
hut he should recollect that this was a Bid fur
teh;oen storluidtahtetdi'''Ft l'itldw, 7ssh oaulritabY: madein'lvi
'ssAi tilti'etuht Vgra"firt'antniot'h'
ould not re
situation they would be laced in, if :hey c
..), ineaatire, and he
destitute pour. This was only
a temnrathe Government in
destitute poor, and it should be recollected al'', what a
was very unwlling to letter the power of
e ia.riade ye
theseircu circumstances,
etehse,
granting this relief. It would
is, but it would, under the eireurnstan:hs u
restriction. There
from any such responsibility if
to fetter the Government by any
therefore, oplpieovsee the
The whole benefit
wishedfetter t
the to knowG o-
people who were in a state of st .
oul _,
were many parts of Ireland which,
l
some portion of the poor-rate
wouldef tb e beA c
t would
unableul d
bto e
lost,
sesrts; e
ihiislet.
11: 'Bleir
linlh:a
sijaedfPai
Governmentlaansbi
utlet
motion. thought that no such monies
Mr. GRAINGER certainly
wereimp e whethersimposed.
f Government at all to restrict
(atisitedwafosrthtehe
such condition as that were
these advances, unless some
should be granted, unless at least
vv Certainly not. It would in every
Sir GEORGE Giles "'—
was unwilling, in the face of such a
way be inadvisable.
have any
dwith his mutton ; but he thought it but
vernment to proceed
mind the House that the Member for
genMerr.alEo.ppDoEsilltioinr tN°
right, nevertheless, to re.
Limerick (Mr. S. O'Brien had stated that no one could be
e wasevidently necessary, He would,
some restriction therefor
t.
n.
intention
however, withdraw this Ino wave notice, that on the b • •
Mr. GAINGER tbedn rinin
half of the amount for the relief of the
sure
fwmoanlyil
sums ue
from etxhtey ear;
Consolidated
clause
Bove for the adoption of
the report of the Committee was
tbe poor-rate.
received to-morrow.
then agreed to.
The remaining clauses w
urpFepous, restricting
ilf
hade:tui hnnegtbi reportel et ahnte raised ae advanceaissetedos fhnrocour from
ere
BREWING FRO
SUGAR BILL
brought The Houseand
resumedordered
I to
0 be
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE-
QUER, the order of the day for going into Committee on this
Bill was read.
Mr. MILES regretted that the measure was introduced as
a permanent measure. The experiments which had been
made, ureler the superintendence of the Excise, showed that
the use of sugar in brewerie4 would act perniciously towards
ine order the agricultural interest. Taking the price of barl yat be-
tween 325. and 41)s. per quarter, and adding to that l rice the
sum of 21s. for the duty and the expense of malting, that
bt
be e
greatequivalent
would give 565., and 645. for the price of malt. Now, when
sugar
o should
re be,re pr
prove
rd
uld, therefore,
was 565., the equivalent in the price of sugar
would be 31s. lid. ; when at 645. the price at
which
with the price of malt, would be 393. 9d. The effect of such
a measure
agri-
cultural interests of the country. He pressed on the Govern-
ment the propriety of making this a temporary measure, for
would, injurious
t so
to
he feared that its operation must prove most injurious. Ile
regretted that more inquiry had not been made with regard to
its probabes effect both on the coluntes and the agricultural in-
terest ; arid he trusted that in the other 11-;use it would
be subjected to that analysis and investigation, which would
show its practical working. He would, however, offer no op
1 position to the progress of the Bill.
Me. J 01E'; saw no reeaon why the Leglslattire shout.'
etteropt to prohibit the eolertiel sieepieeter from seihrig hi;- Or.-
~,,,, #'t, :lily ';;liiiii)...r ntoAt I)..#lPnei,' ~ 1-6,-, He t,-1i,,,,i tre.
with regard to beer, a very little barley mixed with some
sugar would make a better, a more healthy, and a more