The Sun.
London, England, 1841-02-09 00:00:00

TREATY OF TEXAS.

Mr. O'CONNELL inquired of the Noble Lord at
the head of Foreign Affairs if he had any objection to
ley before the House any information that he posseg.ied
with respect to the 'Treaty of Commerce with Texas?
Lord PALMERSTON replied that no information
could be laid before the House until the Treaty hind
been ratified.

Mr. O'CONNELL said, in that case his motion
would come before the House in anoN.
her form.
DUTIES ON RUM,
Sir ROBERT PEEL said, '•t lhad been stated
t
by a Right lion. Gentleman, upono 4c proposal
Member sb had
tefnocre of
the
equalization of the rum dutiesthath i
pose that motion upon the ground of tleeseruxhould op-
slivery in India, and the Right lion. l
since asked for papers, which the Hon. Baronet at
the head of the Board of Control had consented
to produce. He (Sir R. Peel) begged to ask whe-
ther it was the intention of her Majesty's Government
to postpone the measure with reference to the duties
on rum, until that information had been laid before
the House.
Lord PALMERSTON rsplied, Certainly not. It

was his intention to brirg the subject before the House

on Friday next.
APPREHENSION OF MR. M'LEOD.
Lord STANLEY wished to ask the Secretary of
State for Foreign Affairs, an explanation relative to a
statement made by him yesterday evening, and also to
ask the Noble Lord an additional question in reference
to the subject which formed a matter of conversation
between them on that occasion. He had asked tie
Noble Lord whether he had any objection to lay upon
the table the whole of the correspondence since 1537
with the United States of America in reference to the
s:izure and capture of the steamer Caroline
end also whether he would lay the correspond-
etice with reference to the apprehension of Mr.
M'Leod on the table. The Noble Lord said
he did object to lay on the table the correspondence
with reference to these two subjects, but that he bad no
objection, and there could not be any, to lay on the
table so much of the correspondence in freferen,:e to
the last-mentioned subject as had been already pub-
lished in the newspapers, inasmuch as it had been laid
before Congress. Now, he submitted to the Noble Lord
whether he ought, not to reconsider the answer he had
the❑ given. At all events the production of the cor-
respondence in that form would be a matter for his own
discretion. He (Lord Stanley) had asked the Noble
Lord for the production of the whole correspondence

—he did not ask him to lay any partial corres-
pondence on the table of the House, and
which the Noble Lord was about to produce, not
on the ground that it contained the whole of the facts
of the case as it really stood, but on the ground that
through some other and irr gular means it had ob-
tained publicity.—(Hear, hear) He could ❑ot but
think that that would lead to a very inconvenient pre-
cedent, and would place the case on a prineip;e
which would be liable to great misunderstanding as re-
garded Great Britain in the eyes et' her colonies and
the world generally. He did not ask for the produc-
tion of those papers which had b .en laid before the public

. .
He wished also for a more explicit answer to a
question which was asked yesterday, namely, whe-
ther her Majesty's Government had taken any steps,
and what, as retarded the liberation of Mr. M'Leod.
The Noble Lord had told him that her Majesty's (.73
vernment would, and indeed had taken such steps as
they thought necessary on tha subject. He did
not ask them what steps they had taken, if the
Noble Lord thought proper to withhold that information,
but he did ask him whether he had taken such steps
for the protection and liberation of Mr. M'Leod (who
had been apprehended on the 12th of November,lB4o),
as would bo effectual in point of time in reference to the
proceedings then going on. lie wished t• ask that ques-
tion, and also to give the explanation, though he did not
wish to press for the production of papers, nor
did he ask for them when they did not give the
whole information. At the same time he was aware of

the responsibility which attached to any Member cdliieg
upon the Government for papers which they were not
willing, on public grounds, to produce, at the same time
reserving to himself the expression of his opinions upon
the subject, and the full right of pressing upon the
Government at a future time for the whole of the cor-
respondence.
Lord PALMERSTON—When he stated yester-
day that he would have no objection—that he could
have no reasonable objection to offer against the pro-
duction of Papers which had already been laid before
Congress, he did not intimate any intention, on the part
of Government, to lay on the table of the House any
other part of the correspondence, therefore he thought
the Noble Lord had, and would exercise a sound
discretion in abstaining from pressing for it.
Lord STANLEY—I did not ask for it. I asks I
for the whole correspondence.
Lard PALMERSTON—With respect to the other
question, what he had to state was this. A case
of a somewhat similar nature happened, or was about
to happen, a year or a year and a half ago ; and
upon that occasion instructions were sent out to Mr.
Fox, laying down what the Government thought were
sound principles in the emergency. At that time it
was rendered unnecessary to act upon the instruction;
but the case having now actually occurred, Mr. Fox,
without waiting for further instructions from home,
acted upon the fernier instructions, and made the de-
mand upon the American Government for the libera-
tion of Mr. M'Leod. He then reported the whole
case to the Government, but from various
causes that communication had been much longer
on its passage than usual, and it was only
a few days ago that he had received the final portion
of what had taken place between Mr. Fox and the
American Government—it was, therefore, only that
day that an opportunity had presented itself for sending
out final and conclusive instructions—they were then
ready prepared and were on the paint of being sent off ;
but what the nature of those instructions was, neither
the Noble Lord nor the House would then expect him
to say, Mr. Fox had founded his remonstrances with
the American Government upon instructions sent him
by the Government respecting a case of a similar nature,
which it was feared would have occurred.
Lord STANLEY said he wished to understand
whether the Noble Lord received information of the in-
tervention of Mr. Fox relative to the affair of Nov. 12,
1840, and whether any instructions had been seat to
that gentleman upon the subject ?
Lord PALMERSTON said that the instructions
given were precisely to the same effect as those which
were stated as being given in the former case. It was
not till Saturday last that the Government had re-
ceived from Mr. Fox the last communications respect-
ing his correspondence with the United States' autho-
r►ties.

Mr. HUME said he wished to put a question
to the Noble Lord. The Honourable Member
then proceeded to read from a paper, purporting to ha
a general order, signed by Colonel M'Nab, announcing
his Excellency's great satisfaction at the destruction
of the steam-boat, which was effected in a man-
Der so creditable to the Volunteers, and stating
his Excellency's unqualified approv:.l of the important
service thus rendered by those brave men. The ques-
tion which the Hon. Member wished to put was whe-
ther there had been ever a communication from her
Majesty's Government upon the subject, and whether
they signified their approbation of the Act.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL believed the purport of
the Honourable Gentleman's question to be, whether
the Government approved of the orders of the Co-
lonial Government under which the Caroline was at-
tacked.—(Cheers.) His Noble Friend had already
answered the question.—(Cheers.)
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE wished to ask a question of
the Noble Lord, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, as
to whether the Government had adopted the act of
the captors of the Caroline as their own ? He thought
it right that the House should know whether they had
given their approbation or not, and whether, if they had
given it, they had since withdrawn it—( Hear, hear)—
or did they now adopt it ?—(Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON said, that if the question
were whether the Government did or not consider the
captors of the Caroline justified, his answer was, that
the Government did consider them perfectly justified.
Mr. HUME.—Has the Noble Lord, or her M
jesty's Government, ever signified that to the Govern-
ment of the United States in any form ?—(Hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON.—Yes. It has been com-
municated both to the Minister of the United States
here, and by Mr. Fox to the American Government.
IRISH RAILWAYS AND POOR-LAWS.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN wished to ask the Nob le
Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, whether he iotend,(l
to bring before the House any proposition relative to
railways in Ireland ; and also whether it was intended
to propose any amendment of the Irish Poor•law Act.
Lord MORPETH replied in the negative.
IRISH MUNICIPAL CORPORATION ACT.
Mr. SHAW wished to ask whether it was the inten-
tion of the Government to introduce any Bill for the
propose of amending the Municipal Corporation Act of
Ireland, inasmuch as many Courts of Justice and of local
jurisdiction were placed in great jeopardy by reason of
its not being certain whether, under the Municipal Cor-
poration Act, they could perform their functions or not.
Lord MORPETH said that his Hon. and Learned
Friend the Attoraey-General was preparing a measure
which it was his intention to propose to the House for
the purpose of remedying some of the defects of that
measure.

MR. BLACKER.
Mr. SHAW asked for a moment's indulgence while
he alluded to a charge that was made the other
night against a gentleman of high respectability—he
meant Mr. Blaker, the Chairman of the County of Dub-
hn. At the moment when the charge was made against
Mr. Blacker, he and those gentlemen around him who
knew Mr. Blacker, 1;4 convinced that the charge was
unfounded, but he would now read a short passage from
a letter which he had received on the subject from
Mr. Bl.:cker himself. The passage was as follows—
" I gave up in 1826 going the Circuit, and neuer,
either before or since, have belonged to any political
society of any description, or worn any badge
either Orange or not, either in the Circuit or else-
where.—(Cheers.) Tic charge therefore, is not on!y
unfounded in fact, but is contrary to all my habits and
opinions."—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON had received a letter
from Mr. Blacker to the same effect.
Mr. BATEMAN had known Mr. Blacker for
thirty years, and he felt authorized by that long
acquaintance to state that the insinuation of the
Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin was
perfectly unfounded, and when the Hon. Member him-
self wore political midges in that house.—(Loud crier
of " Order, order," during which the lion. Member
resumed his seat.)
DRAINAGE OF LANDS IN IRELAND.
Lord MORPETH, in moving for leave to bring in
a Bill to amend the laws relating to the drainage of
lands in Ireland, said that in England much bad been
done for the drainage of lands, which had been under-
taken either by individuals or Companies ; but although
Ireland possessed an immense quantity of table-land
which might be rendered mo,:t valuable i):, drain-
!lT, the only kgislative enactment on the sub-
ject was the Act introduced by his Honourable

Friend the Member for Kildare, now Secretary
to the Admiralty, in the reign of the last King.
What he proposed by the present Bill was, to tak
from the Companies who at present controled th
drainage of land in Ireland, and placing it in the hand
of Commissioners. He believed that this would ha:
the eff?ct of improving Ireland greatly, increase it•
revenue, and improve the resources of that country. N
There were'many operations in drainage which were oi
too minute a scale to require a general provjsion, anc
severel proprietors in Ireland had suggested that tc
meet such cases a less expensive mode should be devised.
The Bill which he now proposed was in effect th,
s•title as that which he introduced on a former occasion.
when the late period of the Session caused it to be aban-
doned altogether. A Committee appointed by the House
to inquire into its merits had reported favourably. Ti
Bill which he now proposed to introduce was frame,
upon the evidence of Government engineers and other
practically acquainted with the conditions, the wants
and the resources of the country. Whatever might
be the faults of the measure, he believed it was calcu-
lated to do more for the solid good of helm),
than many of the measures which occupied the time r -
the House relating to that country.—(Cheers.) H
believed it was calculated to do much more good t
Ireland than either the Registration Bill of his Righ
Hon. Friend opposite or his own.—(Cheers an
laughter.) It was clearly more calculated to do good
than his Hon. Friend's.—(Great cheering and laughter.)
He did not however expect that it would be taken an
much notice of as either of the Registration Bills—
(Laughter)—but he sincerely hoped that it would not
encounter so mnch opposition.—(Great cheering and
laughter.)
Mr. GOULBURN should certainly protect an
grant of public money being made for the purpose o
carrying the Bill into effect. He wished to asl,
whether the Noble Lord intended to ask for an issue.
of Exchequer Bills, and if not in what way he proposec
to raise money for defraying the expenses of the works
Lord MORPETH said it was merely intended tc
place the promoters of any of the works upon the same
footing as the projectors of other public works, and tc
give them a power to borrow.
Mr. SHAW did not intend to offer any opposition
to the first reading of the Bill, and he agreed will
many of the general observations that had fallen
from the Noble Lord. There was no one project o'
improvement the Government could so well direct theii
attention to as the improvement of the agriculture of Ire-
land. He must deprecate any attempt to give an undue
influence to the manufacturers of Ireland, and to ex-
clude others, how much he might wish to see th
native manufacturers prosper. As the Noble Lori
here referred to another measure pefore the House
(the Irish Registration Bill), he would just observe
that it was rather inconsistent in the Noble Lord
while he professed a desire to improve the system of
agriculture in Ireland to attempt to introduce a
system of 51. tenements, the splitting of farms
and the minute sub-division of hand, for that was what
the Noble Lords' Registration Bill would ultimate])
lead to.

Mr. O'CONNELL must complain of the opinions
the Right Honourable Gentleman expressed with
regard to the manufaCturing produce of his coun
man had discussed that subject with his friend Pro-
try. He wished the Right Honourable Genet:-
lessor Butt. But what had the question of Irish ma-
nufacture to do with draining. The draining of Ireland
was the -question before the House—a process which
that Assembly had for many years past beer
pretty familiar with.—(Laughter.) Tne Right
Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Goulburn) was
so alarmed and terrifiTd lest any money should go from
this country to Ireland, even in the shape of Exchequer
Bills, that he had felt it necessary to rise immediately after
the Noble Lord to enter his protest against it.
Why the Right Hon. Gentleman appeared to forget
that 74,0001. annually, the produce of the Woods and
Forests in Ireland, was remitted to beautify London
and improve its streets and squares, and that
there was also a surplus of two millions from the Irish
Exchequer. He hoped the House would not participate
in the antipathy of the Right Hon. Gentleman
to Ireland, and that, if money was required upon good
security, it would not be withheld, even if England were
the lender.

Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
PUNISHMENT OF DEATH.

Mr. FITZROY KELLY rose to bring forward
his motion for leave to bring in a Bill to abolish
the punishment of death in all cases except mur-
der and high treason. It would not be ne•-
cessary for him to intrude upon the attention of
the House at any length, because it was impossible
to mark the progress of legislation for the last
forty or fifty years the spread of education and know-
ledge, without feeling that the severity of the criminal
code had been most materially and judiciously ameliorated
in that period. Since then the number of crimes hay e
been diminished, and the number of convictions in pro-
portion. In the beginning of the present century there
was three hundred offences punishable by death by the
laws of England. Since that period owing to th,
great exertions of a few individuals, notwithstanding the
powerful and determined opposition of :many persons
among whom were a number of gentlemen belonging to
the profession to which he bad the honour to belong
There had been a great reduction in the number of
crimes which were denominated capital, and they were
now reduced to about 30. The last occasion was in
I 83L, when several Bills were introduced in Parlia-
ment by the Noble Lord opposite (J. Russell), and
these had, after full discussion, received the sanction
of Parliament. Feeling, in common with many
who had devoted their attention to the subject,
that a sufficient period had elapsed since then to enable
the public and the Legislature to decide on the pro-
priety of further improvements. He had in the last Ses
sion of Parliament introduced a Bill to exempt from ca-
pitai punishment all crimes but murder and high treason
It would be in the recollection of the House that last
Session his Bill passed through all its stages by large
major ities, and that it was only on the motion that it
be read a third time that in a thin House and
by no means a large majority it was defeated. Be-
lieving that he would be giving effect to the wishes
of a very large majority of that House and
of
,the well thinking of the people, he begged
leave again to submit to Parliament the propriety
of abolishing capital punishments in all cases except those
o'murder and high treason. As he had often before stated
the general arguments in favour of the Bill ; and as hi
understood that he was to meet with no opposition in
introducing his Bill, he did not think it necessary to
trespass further on the time of the House than
state that the object of the present Bill was co-exten-
sive with that of last Session.
(LEFT SPEAKING.)