The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-24 00:00:00

titian, but he could not refrain `rem raying that it wes liturgy be thoecht to be in a state of pennanenee ar regarded
most reap& etably siene.l, theology, so far might they be regarded es :n a state of per-
Mr. Alderman HUMPIIERY and Capt. PECHELL manence in political opinion. There:ore the Hon. Member
presented petitions against the Government scheine. for Wolverhampton had no right to be surprised at what fell
WESLEYA NS. from the Hon. Member for Durham. Those who petitioned
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from a at Crosby
y Hall were not to be met with statistics of crime,
. en- asked, was such a state of things to exist ?
meeting of Wesleyens repudiating the compromise
For they said that they regretted such facts as much
tared into with the Government by seine of their own as they did lust. They believed that the course
body. pursued by the Government, wruid not ameliorate, but would
GOVERNMENT SCHEME OF EDUCATION. rather do harm than anything else. He wished come Hon.
Sir W. CLAY moved, on the motion that the Sp( ulcer Member would get tip in that House, and show that the Meta-
do leave the chair on going into Committee of Supply, hers for Durham and Nottingham, and the meeting at Crosby
with a view to the giant for the promotion of education, Ha.ll, ha
adspursued a course inconsistent with their own prin-
tceeireestaere
he a statement had not been as yet made, and
that it is expedient that in any plan for promoting
the education of the people by pecuniary assistance fromconsidered that the deot ute condition of the
people had been unfairly pressed
,titt-'tannehvieetre tsoei.tuhr(rthoebj?ncl
the State, provision should be made that in schoole
.t.e-
tions. The object of education aught
stitutions of the country, and to renderg hie and property more
ceiving such assistance, the opportunity for participating
secure than hitherto. This did not appear to him capable of
in all instruction other than religious should be etfor -
to children whose parents may object to the religious doe-
being effected without pious. religious, and secular instruction.
trines taught in such schools. Having stated the reasons Dr. BOWRING said that he felt it a shame and an or.pro-
which induced him to withhold his support, he should be brium to th.e.tcotur:try in which they lived that the people should
enabled to comprise his observations in a very short space have bee.:nel,laeden:nhteatni,cayot,naidhniedtiit,,,:in:liunc wtt.tl,ititetincotrtieeyxereiouwedftehuenmd.theHme.
The House had thought fit to affirm by a very large S eaa-ril
nd Germany,
majority the plans brought forward by the Government; had failed to
he bowed to that el ecisa oe ; but he deeply regrette .1 must.
instruett_tm to the grearntna,r.eYesePst?`" 'itiie
boo iiii, project of her I,iaje,ey 's Government I;:tasYsro'lfl.r:i'll,eedd
it. The House, instead of i•ndeavouring t,. h,rm a plat
that it ('051"1 tot di.peuse Ili,- tressiee, of edneatien. It had
of national education, }.laced itself at the head of a Nast
racer nu r' den anywhere, a, d it In vet v;,oglutlic3l.
reillge,,,aulsw;ayist
sects Dian scheme. As far as he was conc, reel he eheul .
be.ieeed th,t secul,r ins'ruction 0.1... cent
offer no further opposition to that plat in its general chit tea„ht Leine or, cl,ar.ts, ant tae du,:es c'• Inch one titan ow, d
ratter; but tie should by his motion endeavour to alter a to another. Wr.s not Cnis religious list list what was ger.et ady
portion of it so dolective, that he thought that his N able meant by religion? lAI
..',ly 1:e towel that the dis.
Friend would a ardl y orpose the remedy he pr-posed. t:tieteri, if creed se ere these wl,h.h . were under,t, od.
The part of the plan to which lie alluded, was that which As far as he could see his way in,ltlii. ~in,istri,
lt!'i• :.!'il's'eei'l as
i'''
I Y
took from the children of those persons who differed {rem oee solution of it. Ile desired to s.
tali; :on
ettfunie.eat;ihon
the Church of England all power of sharing in the etlu extended, hut he did itot o a
of
thatsoeteher classes. 6 order thaty
tion which was furnished at the ex pence of the Stele w•th- one class over the, ellnsicne,s, ~free,,ai, they ought to let that
out becoming parties to a rergion which they did net ow n.. religious insbtaructionn, by might '
the clergymen of the sect tn which the
The present measure would operate most unjustly against : instruction
ts helo
belonged—by by't e paren.s an by the guardians of the
the Nonconformists. In every parish in the kingdom
there would be a school established in connexion with I
' parents
themselves.n-e(- There was no such thing recognised on
'1
the continent as a religious education. He had vatted con-
the Church, and they would be enabled to comply with tinental schools, and i.e had asked the masters what was the
the conditions laid down in the Minutes of Education, religion of the parents of the scholars, and the utmost astonish-
so as to participate in the grant. On the other hand, in
.ment was expressed that he should have askicl such a question.
the rural districts the Nonconformists would rarely be He grieved to think that into this great field of national benee
able to comply with the conditions for a separate school, volence so much religious acrimony—so many antipathies—so
and they would either be obliged to send their children much bitter animosity—shou:d have penetrated. He, perhaps,
to the Church school, or go without altogether. The did not know like these opponents, what was charity, and he
Hon. Member here read an extract from a petition of
ht eltdhthat onh the. side of animosity was error, and on the side of
the London Auxiliary School Union, respecting the in- alr.wasTßeEreat.TNY said, that if he were disposed to op
vidious distinction. The petition was entitled to great the grant of her Majesty's Government he shoulcinot doscraosn
consideration, representing ninety-seven schools. He the ground that the grant was unconstitutional. Nor did he
thought the injustic of which he spoke ought to be re- object to the grant because it was different from the former
medied, and therefore he proposed the present motion. grants. He sincerely believed that this was essentially the
If it were agreed to, and the Minute altered in ac- same with the grant of 1839. Neither did he object to it on
cordance with it, then there would be difficulty in account of its amount, for he thought it was a trifle when com-
ared to the importance of its object ; but he did object to it
educating the children of both parties together. p
that it excluded the Roman Catholics from its advantages.
Now he directed his observations solely to the case, that
Neither would he object to it on the ground that it remunerated
those who were in the minority, either in numbers cr in
young men who were fitted for the offices of monitors and
wealth, had no right to complain—firstly, because he
teachers. He, however, objected on principle to schools in
believed that they would meet with the sympathy of the which religious tests obtained, because, as was proved by Dr.
House ; and secondly, because it was asserted that the Vaughan, they would engender continual quarrels and
children of Dissenters might obtain their education in jealousies from the conflicting sectarian interests. He
the schools of the Church of England. Of course, where thought it was a great hardship that Dissenters should
the Church of England was in the minority, the converse be obliged to receivheilerelitghieous
aiinusrterhumctainon
lalt
iThu.ch
egtehey thatdid
of this position would take place. He should therefore schools, because
move, that in all schools which might be established the Dissenterse h
taughtw what was true, but thata
through the aid of the Government grant, provision not teach th
should be made for giving to the children of Dissenters the Churchmenwole truth, the Dissenters again said that
taught more than the truth; therefore,
although the former might receive instruction from the latter,
all the instruction afforded other than religious. the latter, on every principle of justice, could not be compelled
On the motion that the order of the day be now read,
to receive' instruction from the former ; but in a matter of
Mr. CHRISTIE said that it was with great pain he education, he thought that the Dissenters had nothing to cora-
refused to accede to the request of his constituents, to plain of, because, although they might with justice complain of
oppose the motion of the Government, and instead of op- the inculcation of doctrinal points, that objection could not
posing it, he felt bound to give, not a cold and heart- hold in a matter of secular instruction. He should give his
less, but a cordial and earnest support to the plan. cordial support to the measure of the Government.
lie had made many ineffectual attempts to catch the Mr. BROTHERTON said to fit a man for his duties in
Speaker's eye during the last debate ; had he succeeded time and eternity, there must be a higher, than mere secular
in doing so, it was his intention to have stated the education. He might perhaps admit that this measure would
grounds upon which he was prepared to give his most enhance the power of the Church, while it restrained that of the
cordial assent to the measure proposed by the Govern • Dissenters; but that was not the main question. The question
ment. With respect to the amendment just proposed to was, would it be for the good of the people ? He thought it
would,he, and
.therefore. he_ should vote for it, inasmuch as he
the House, he thought that the proposed plan of the
Government for considering such cases as those referred plc.t ug
Tththate t
einn Iv. oledmohmegr
then
wasn r
ee assistingeededt thee
eonif thethe siseo-te.
to by the Hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Sir W. tistics of Manchester to show, proceeded
in the last few years the
Clay) as special cases, and treating them as such, would proportion of those who could neither read nor write was in-
sufficiently meet all the difficulties referred to by the creased instead of diminished, and this, he thought, furnished
lion. Member. He considered that the proposed sufficient proof that the voluntary system did not meet the exi-
minutes had been treated rather unfairly by the gencies of the country. He concluded that the rights of con-
i.locrieendce(.4oLgehnt
hadto bere respectedde.d
hHatetrcorlil7ttsed
ftheatootnoitlernbecese-
opponents to the measure.—(Hear.) In the year 1832 a
law was passed, placing the Catholics and the Jews uponh I
ought to be respectedc butmehnow weret those rights
precisely the same footing as the various sects of
.t e
petted if there were not opportunities given for the education
Protestant Dissenters, and he hoped that as tho claims of the children of Dissenters. He had many letters at the pre-
of the Catholics were promised to be attended to by the sent moment in his pocket, from Wesleyan Ministers, who corn-
Government, that the claims of the Jews would not be plained that there was no opportunity for the educe-
overlooked. The Hon. Member for Kent (Mr. Plumptre) then of their children under the agency of clergymen ; and
had stated that the House would, by giving assistance to he was therefore ready to vote for any measure which
the Roman Catholics, bring upon itself the charge of in- would have the effect of reducing this evil. They
thTle preventionheyhadta ekerxr
who stated, in his correspondence which
fidelity. Upon such a subject he (Mr. Christie) could many measures for the punishment andforth2e.scooor,roeocotilo.n
for
mund Burke,
not quote a higher authority than that of the late Ed-
criminals, but they had grievously neglect
crime. He could not forget that they
spent
the punishment ot crime. He recollected that they had spent
had been recently published, that a system of full, fair, 16,000,000/. in the army arid navy, and yet they grudged the
and perfect toleration would be in perfect accordance money that was necessary for the improvement of the eduea-
with his own opinions, and that his views of toleration lion of the people, and he believed that if they meant to ob-
viate the evil theymust akeeiducation on the basis of that
were even more universal than the ideas entertained upon
m not q
0o forget that
hl i
et
-hhe re were
and 20,000uil
that subject by the Dissenters themselves. In the corn- improvement. Re could
tnittee of supply they would-be called upon to vote nu- churches, while there were 1
merous sums for the cause of education. Among others they soberised the people they could Pnnot possiblyaa ses,
expect that
there would be a vote for the London University, to the crime should be at all reduced. He had none of
benefits and scholarships of which the sons of Dissenters dices against a dominant church which hail been so foriu
loudly
showed not the slightest objection to participate in the proclaimed for if they were to look at the voluntary system
advantages conferred by the State, and shared equally below the surface, they would see that there was much of
with themselves by the Roman Catholics, and he would compulsion in it, for so long as the principle prevailed that the
ask the Wesleyans, who had shown such a decided anti- lowuserbcelasaselsiadbesietedoll upon the richfortheir subsistence, there
pathy to allow the Roman Catholics to have any share the poor and labouring classes to be
ompprtessed by their mere wealthy neighbours. He had voted in
of the Government funds for the purpose of education, the minority last night, but on a reconsideration of the cir-
how it was that they could reconcile the fact of their cumstances he felt assured that many of the difficulties would
allewing their sons to mingle in that University with the be obviated, and so long as the Commons of England had a
Roman Catholics ? yearly power of controlling the principle by an annual vote.
Mr. VILLIERS did not think that the charges of ineon- they would have the means of exercising a judicious manage-
vistency brought forward by the Honourable Member for ment over the education which would be provided for the
Weymouth (Mr. Christie) could at all dispose of the people. With these views then he had no hesitation whatever
objections urged by the Honourable Member for the in supporting the plan of the Government.—( Cheers. )
Tower Hamlets, which was the duty of affording extended Mr. ACLAND said that it was with great diffidence he
education to the children of the Dissenters. The Dis- expressed his opinions on the present occasion, but a sense of
senters were, it appeared, resolved to refuse the assistance of duty alone hat; compelled him to state his feelings.
the Government, and this he thought would be a lesson to the He had to-day received a letter from a clergyman whose name
Government not to leave the subject of the education ot the if mentioned would command instant respect, but which he
people in the hands of any religious societies. Should the should not state, because it was probable that if published it
Dissenters refuse the aid of the Government, the consequence might possibly lead to a breach of the harmony that
would be that a great number of the children of this country now existed between him and his dissenting brethren.
would be left without education, and the efforts of the Govern- (Hear, hear.) That clergyman had established five schools
went to educate the people would eventually be made, through in his parish, in which there were 1,130 schools, 351 of whom
one religious society alone. He thought it most desirable that alone were the children of members of the Church of England,
there should be a general system of education, in the benefits so that only one third of the whole of the scholars were the
of which all could equally pertake, and this could only be offspring of those who were likely to accede, without hesitation,
done by separating the secular and religious education of the to the plan of the Government. In the whole of hisedeo
would educations
in people. He quite agreed in the opinion of Dr. Vaughan, that instruction, he had adopted the principle of uniform
in all schools connected with the Government .provision should and when it was put to the parents whether the
be made for the religious education of the children, who tinue their children or not, but a very small number ed rr.
might thus be allowed the benefit of such education in such inclined to withdraw their children. From another source ha
cases as their parents might think desirable. He thought bad received a communication. It came from a clergyman who
such a system was the only practicable one that could be carried had established, not day schools, but Sunday schools, and in
oat. He was quite ready to admit that they were at present those schools he had adopted one uniform system of tuition, and
only in the infancy of the cause of education, and when it was put to the parents, they had, without hesitation,
he was happy to hear the Noble Lord at the head of the Go- declined from withdrawing their children from the school, so
vernment, say that the present measure was not a final one that he was convinced that it was not because the Dissenters
and that his wishes lay in the direction of a more extensive plan objected to any system of education which might be adopted by
of education. The Noble Lord had done all that he could do the Church, but because he believed that they were indisposed
in the cause, and he thought that for such a cause he was de- to hand over the souls of their children to the care of the
serving of praise. He could not, therefore, join in the oppo- Church that they opposed the plan. But the plea
sition which had been raised (he must say most unexpectedly of the Government proposed nothing of the sort,
to him) to the proposition of the Government. If he under- and the question then arose whether there was to be
stood his Noble Friend, the Noble Lord at the head of the any education adopted or not, and if the plan was to
Government, in the two speeches which had been delivered by be opposed, it was really to be considered whether it was ad-
him on the subject, he said that he had been anxious to attend visable to occasion an opposition from the clergy of the estab.
to the wish of this country to extend the benefits of education to lished church, instead of a willing co-operation on a matter of
the poor, that he had done as much as was possible with the mate- so much importance. Truly and sincerely did he thank the
rials which were at hand, that he did not dispair for the future Government for the minutes, for he believed that the plan was
but that the system for the time being was not complete. But likely to be of the greatest advantage to the country, He thought
he (Mr. Villiers) did not join with those who objected to the that now the jealousy arising from the inspection of the State,
plan. He thought that the Dissenters in the objections which was entirely removed. lie had entertained very serious ap
they had takenhad rather taken their friendsby surprise. Consi- prehensions as to the ultimate designs of the Committee oi
dering the subject before the House merely in the view of a Council on Education, but he now felt bound to say that the
money vote, he could have no objection to the manner in Council had removed those apprehensions, and he for one
which the discussion had been introduced into the House. begged to express his admiration of the practical nature of the
But he was sorry that such a subject should have been dis- details, and the fairness of manner in which those minutes had
cussed as an item in the miscellaneous, and that no time had been drawn up. He thought that really the Sunday-schools of
been given for the discussion of any amendments that might this country were not deserving of the obloquy which had heel;
have been introduced upon it. He knew that the Noble Lord cast upon them. He thought, indeed, that the teachers of
at the head of the Government bad stated that no those schools who, voluntarily and at great trouble to them.
more sums of money would be voted for this purpose. selves, devoted their time and attention to those
except by Bills brought before Parliament. (Lord J. Russell schools, were deserving of the greatest praise. He
—No, not by Bills.) He certainly expected that the same roust, however, admit that the schools established
order which had always ruled in that House on religious mat- throughout this country, were not altogether what
ters, should have been observed on that. They know that no- they ougbt to be, and in some cases_ the present minutes of
t
thing affecting either religion or commerce could be brought in the Council would not reach
hecaseof those schools, and he
unless in a Committee of the whole House. That made him hoped that on
somnentfpagurteeup.reereollctochaesdimiodainntnhotetesthinimnskininethhtteeaat Counciltomhfeanpnreersenast
bury (Mr. Duncombe) somewhat appropriate, and therefore he
think the amendment moved by the Hon. Member for Fins-
tmoigahfftorbed tehnatbaededvraet
deserving of the charge which bad been
eid not vote against it. At the same time, he thought the Government a
w l
Government had met with great difficulties, and they had con- brought against them, of not bringing the situation of the
tended with them to the utmost; they had all that they Catholics, with respect to this measure, fully and fairly before
its could. Therefore he hoped that the words of the Right the House. He gave his mostc
saordniagleithnaenekxaspteo. etathteieGnsoveefrne
Honourable Baronet the Member for Tamworth in ment for the measure they had introduced, and
the House last night, would be pondered over throughout the measure would fulfill the most trusted that
the country when he in effect said that that was not the time promoters. The Dissenters had taken a great objection to an
of day when they ought to exclude the children of the poor expression used by a Right Rev. Prelate, with respect to the
from the benefits of education by squabbling upon religion, ordination of the schoolmasters. He (Mr. Acland) must say
which if pursued must necessarily retain the country hopelessly that he should most decidedly object to the money, to be paid
in the same situation as it was at the present moment in regard to the schoolmasters, going to the support of ordained deacons.
to education. He hoped that such a question would not again be disturbed by
Mr. FORBES felt it necessary, after all that took place in a party spirit.
hat House, not to vote on the measure without some MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
_ _

Messengers brought up several Bills from the Lords.
Mr. F. BERKELEY rose to oppose the proposition of the
education would be most worthilyc Is.
h the dGsovernment had brought
disapproved of the way in eh
Government He considered the whoelrevevdo.te
Hsfe,
however.devoted
h d beeni
introduced into the House in
in the subject;fifforeredtheemstoestthpeardtethaiaz
' acceded to the principle, ey
disapprove of the domination which
He felt it necessary to
hands of certain parties named in-
ehytmhaigvhetd
Who were these inspectors to be? Why, nine were
the form of a Billo,railfthitothugahtrethi
spectors.
to be clergymen of the church of England, two of the church
of Scotland, two lay inspectors, and the remaining two were to
be dissenters. He did not wonder at the fears
the scheme threw into the.
which had arisen
out of doors, when such a proposal was made to increase the
wealth of a church which already possessed that in abundance.
It was less a source of jf alousy to the people than of serious
thesgreato some
Membere
years a fa i 8 l
guf
oor
re.
Dorchester in
li eprf ae
ic
t t iict e
il ads v t
necessaryrhe ev
aSi
consideration to the Members of that House. He was afraid
whether this measure would not ultimately turn eat as
tlmoe
dar mall
enoDrt
dhe
ebht
Hiss
voouts Act,ee two
againsthp iaes
sk
the measure, and those with whom he had been in the habit of
acting.
Mr. PAKINGTON rose to call the attention of the House
back to the subject before it, viz., the an.endment of the Hon.
Member for the Tower Hamlets. He felt himself obliged
\to vote in favour of the principle of the amendment.
He was not prepared to give up the principle.
long held sacred in this country, of associating re.
ligious with secular education. Still he was not
ready at that moment to accede to any motion which would
I make it compulsory on the schools in connexion with the
national system to adopt that as a part of their course. The
concession would very soon have to be made in favour of the
voluntary efforts in religious matters
' 1 Sir BENJAMIN HALL thought that the great object of
1 the Government, now that the House had assented to the
I scheme of education, should be to render it as palatable as
1 possible to all classes of the people. He would therefore sup-
' ' port the proposition of the Hon. Member for the Tower
' , Hamlets, and he, was surprised to hear the course which the
' • Government were likely to pursue on this occasion. The Hon.
l Gentleman
was I,roceekiing to enter into. the general question,
iwhen he was interrupted bPSir J. C. Hobbouse with the re-
mark that " Alelesworth's motion came on on Monday." He
was aware that Molesworth's motion came on on Monday--:
thought
_
1 ( Laughter)—but this was the twelfth time he bad attempted
I to address the House on this question, and he therefore
) that he should now be permitted to express the opinions been.