The Sun.
London, England, 1841-03-24 00:00:00

motives; but those very circumstances showed that im-
prisonment at home required so much strictness of disci-
pliee, or inspired so little dread, that it was necessary to
carry out the system with severity in the manage-
ment. If they compared that saverity at home
with the rigour of transportation abroad, they
found that in many cases transportation was not the greater
punishment. He had another objection to imprisonment
in the hulks for a number of years—it was that it led to an
inequality of punishment. Indeed ho could scarcely con-
ceive any system which would weigh with a more unequal
rigour on the different classes of offenders. Much had
been said against the inequality of the system of assign-
ment, but that inequality was nothing when compared with
the inequality of imprisonment at home for a term of yearn.
Persons who were used to labour in the open fields felt the
punishment of confinement in a tenfold degree compared
to the artisan, who had been all his life used to sedentary
occupations. To a person of a quick and sensitive mind,
imprisonment was intolerable, while one of a less active
disposition regarded it as no evil, if his meals were suffi-
cient in quantity and of regular recurrence. The same ob-
jections applied to the hulks that did to imprisonment, with
this additional one, that it was impossible to introduce into
the hulks the recent improvements which bad been intro-
duced into prison discipline. The hulks system had all the
evils of imprisonment without any of its advantages. An-
other objection to the hulks system was its expense.
He admitted that in such a question as the
present, economy ought not to be made a
paramount consideration, but yet it ought not to be alto-
gether set aside. The Noble Lord had himself calcu-
lated that the expense attending the transportation
of each convict was 151., and as on his arrival in the
Colony his labour more than maintained him, that
was the whole of the expense. At the hulks the expense
of maintaining a convict amounted, during three yearn, to
18/. a year. Now the Noble Lord calculated that hii
labour was worth 101. a year, leaving 8/. a year as the
actual expense, but that was assuming that every
convict at the hulks was able to work. Now
Mr. Capper had reported that a great number
of those at present at the hulks wore wholly
unfit for work of a laborious nature, therefore there
could be no set cff in those cases against the expenses.
Again no account had teen taker of the expense of
fitting up the hulks, which he understood was considerable,
great rnisapprchension prevailed as to the comparative ex.
prise of transportation and confinement in Ire hulks. The
expense of the farmer was 151 whilst that of the latter
was 1001. Tito Noble Lord would say prrhaps that they
should take into account the expense of maintainirg
the military and police establishments of the Colony.
That argument, however, had no practical applica.
tion. The Establishment was in existence, and it
would be a long period before it could he re-
duced. He came now to the rna'n and paramount
objection to the system, an objection which no improve-
moot in the discipline, no reformation in the crimi-
nal could ever remove.—( Hear, hear.) How were
criminals to obtain honest employment when they
were discharged?—(Hear.) The difficulties which arose
on this point were of the most painful na',ure. Ha
was happy to lean by the report of the Chaplains, that a
great reformation hart token place among the prisoners.
But, admi•tng the truth of such statements, and supposing
the prisoner to be a reformed cl erecter, how was he to get
a livel hood? Who would give him employment ? What
chance had he of obtaining a situation for which four or
five persons of unimpeachable character were amp ieants ?
It often occurred that women who had taken one false step,
who detested a life of prostitut on, were driven t that life
because they had nn other means of obtaining a livelihood,
The Noble Lord risen proceeded to read portions of the
evidence of the Rev. Mr. Winter and Mr. William Miles
before the House of Lords, in iilustration of this view.
Mr. Cotton, the Ordinary of Newgate, bore testimony to
the immorality of offenders after they had left the prison,
in consequence, in most cases, of the difficulty they expe-
rienced in finding employment. Mr Capper himsele, the
superintendent of the hulks system, give similar testimony.
He did not think that after such evidence the Noble Lord
would be enamoured of the system. But the Noble Lord
himself, when reerring to a similar system in France, said
th. t " that country was suffering from the mass of released
convicts who, after having been confined in glor, again
joined the part of the community, peifect adepts
in thieving and house-breaking. That must," he said, " be
the ca e in any country where crime has every tempt ition,
and indu ery is abundantly employed." These were the words
of the N able Lord ; and he (Lord Mahon) wondered how
after the es-ion of such an er inion, the Noble Lord
could ranch oa the introduction of a :imi'ar system int,
this c. u try. Ile wruld next direct the attenti ,n of tl e
Huse to ti e objections made to the system of transporta-
tion. lie should observe that he t ,ought the Report of
the Committee of the House on that suLject was I•able to
two main objections. In tha first place, ;they ref red to
par isular acts, and deduced from the general conclu-
sions. lie would give, as an instance, the feel mentioned
of a clue- . man having been implicated in some gross ire •
gul airy, from which the Han. Member far Leeds had
concluded to :t the whole der,gy of Australis were demo-
ralized. Rut the Bishop of the colony hal alt gs.the de-
nied the accuracy of such a statement. In the next place,
it appeared t him that the Committee had confounded the
abuses of the system with the system itselc. Notwith-
standing all its abuses, he contended that the system pur-
sued in New South Wales had reformed more criminals
than could have been done in England. In ord rto make
out this asserton, the Nobl.! Lord quoted the opinion
of the Jest'ca and the Attorney-General of
New Son .h Wales, aid also the testimony of seve-
ral clergymen who had devoted themselves to the
reformation convicts in Va t Die Tell'S Lend.—( Hear.)
These were au-horates that ought not to be dip staled
by the House, being FS they were tee highest in the law
and the Church. The eclonies themselves were not
against the discontinuance of the prese it system. Could
the house b lisve that pecuniary considerrtons would out-
wcieli all tlro cv Is Which were charged upon the system ?
That statement was made out by resolutions inmsed nt
public meetings in all the colonies, and he did not believe

that there was a respectable colonist, except, indeed, one
holding office under and at the pleasure of the Crown,
aho approved of the system of the Noble Lord. He Re'.
qutesced in the abolition of the assignment system of the
Noble Lord, and although he thought that the Noble Lord
had acted hastily and without due notice in the case of
New South Wales, still he thought the time bad arrived
when convicts should not be sent to that colony ; but be
was decide d)y of opinion that the convicts might be very
beneficially increased in Van Diemen's Land. These
were his practical views, but he was anxious to leave
ttiem where they ought to rest, with the Government, but
he had thought it his duty to enter so fully into the ques-
tion. Upon these grounds he called upon the House to
affirm the resolution of which he had given notice.
Mr. PA KING TON seconded the motion.
Lord J. RUSSELL concurred in the regret expressed
by the Noble Lord, that that subject did not excite more
attention in the House. It was a most important one.
But after listening to the speech of the Noble Lord he
( Lord J. Russell), did not think there existed such a
difference of opinion between them as the tams of the
motion would appear to indicate. ne Noble Lord nil
not deny the gre.st evis of the assignment system. and ha
(Lord J. Russell) did not believe that the Noble Lord
could induce the tous., to eft tblish a system of slavery
in Australia so shortly after the/ had abolished it in their
other colonies. The Noble Lord seemed to thiuk that
there had been no inquiry since the Lords' Committeo
bad sat; in that he wa ; mistaken, for a Committee of that
House had sat for two yerrs; they took a great deal of
evidence, and came to resolutions upon which the e was no
difference of opinion. He did not believe there was a
division in the Committee, although it was composed of
Members of vicious political opinions, as well as of
those who had paid much attention to the subject,
These gentlemen came to certain resolutions, the effect of
which was, that transportation, to certain parts of New
South Walcs and Van Diemen 's Land ought to be die-
continu6d, and that it should be confined to p:rts net
settled. It was upon these resolutions that he had acted.
The Noble Lord said there was a great objection to the
punishment of the hulks. No doubt there was ; but when
they had once stated that capital punishment was not to be
used as an ordinary punishment in this country, there caste
a punishment to which there was another sort of objection,
and which could not be entirely got over. This punish-
ment was liable to certain disadvantages, but, until they
showed some better system could be established, there was
no foundation on which the House could come tea decision
OA the subject. No doubt confinement affected the health
of these persons, but the House must, at the same time.
keep in view that the object of the punishment was to defer
from crime ; and if the Noble Lord told him (Lord J.
Russell) they would remedy these evils by sending
t permanent
to New South Wales, where they woulq
k gecolisiderable
them
employment, with the prospect of in
fortunes, he replied they would then
they would
tion at the opposite end of would have the
theca
cease to have a punishment whichan -,
d by preserving- the
effect of deterring from crime;
would in effect tell a
incursalieniganother objec_
health of these persons, theiyation
of the country who
great proportion of the no
- Pouting crime, they would have
naeccoeussnatrryy
were in want that by
sentuaisd
taothat every
employment for those persons
at.c.utinirrictbbotihre.iNtuoabtlioenLbeortdtesria_te(dHz:
a good prospect of making
hear.)
A entry like this, one which they
effect in a settle. co
when theycnoouthlder
neoffte.efi
person who coma'
Sod employment. They would ri
d
where rid
where be would
e objection, but they
indeed of the
one
alluded. He would fall into the
ether to which
into
the ea, subject tftransportation, because it had
could nothovewcroeyilewolleietlativeldrnegamctrehidemba,ublukts
been gone into with great care by the Committee. With
to the expense,
the account given by Mr. With
regard
of the 4th Feb. 1841, stated that the expense of the felons
in the hulks was 30,2331., for the totalvalue of h •
should
if
Lem labours—
-32,4171. It was not therefore so much
had said. With regard to the whole as the Noble Lord
was one of degree between the Noble
Noble Lord (Id not
diminish transportation he Lord and himself.
question, be thoughTthiet
approve of the old system, and was not
prepared with any improvement
one by which we got rid of a colony a
depot of the crime of this the evil of
Thoughaking
anxious to
on the present. It was
I agreed with Archbishop Whateley and others that it ought
to be entirely abolished, and on the contrary, a great num-
ber were still sent out, to the amount of 2,000 each yea.%
Lord John Russell) bad not
He quite agreed with the Noble Lord that the sentence
etavtienu;
e
endured by the felon should be such as was pronounced by
the Judge, and not by the Secretary of State; but he did
not think the system of cammutation was carried on in
the
For wholesalethese
re a s
osnnsa.ntuheerwrofbra,i.c:dhi: tice Noblehshaloiun l
gd m
Ltovreth
e.
honour to fill
cI
the had o
question.—( Hear.)
Mr. PAKINGTON re
the situation of Chairman of Quit-ter Sessions he hoped
to be alloweil to express an opinion on the subject. Ho
thought great praise was due to the Noble Lord for the
thought the Noble Lcrd had given a very
improvements that he had effected on these subjects, but be
om:ottisset
say he answer to the cave made out by his Noble
Friend. lie was happy to hear what had fallen from the
' Noble Lord respecting carrying into effect the sentence
I pronounced by the Judge. Fie thought!this was essential
to the ends of justice. Another objection to the present
system was the groat uncertainty of cawing into effect

/

~~,: