The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-17 00:00:00

0011114 S of A. year or two, build up a measure upon the twenty years ago. It was his (Mr. P. Sceope'e) belief,
experience which they would thus be enabled to gain. that it ought to have been introduced a hundred years
It appeared to him that this Bill was at variance with ago. A poor-law tor Ireland was no new measure, for
the object it professed to have in view. It was wished in 1640 a Bill had been passed for that country which
to stimulate the owners and occupiers of land to embark was nearly altogether the counterpart of the Act of
their capital in the improvement of the agriculture of the Elisabeth, but it had never been carried out inconse-
y and the employment of the people. It professed quence of the opposition of the landowners, and he si "i-
-gnition, and yet its provisions were not cerely trusted that the Government would now remedy
:: encouragetr emigration,
a a nature calculated to make emigration a beneficial the defect.
measure to the people, nor was it at all likely to improve , Colonel VERNER would not have risen at all, but
or facilitate the collection of the poor-rates in Ireland. for the observations of the Hon. Baronet below him, hut
That such would be result of this rash experiment be he could not help observing-, that if this law were passed,
was assured. It looked, iu fact, more like the reckless and he had no doubt whatever but that it would
proceedings of gamblers than the cool and sagacious pass that House,thaotr itthawould
union be
-
that, either.
resolutions of statesmen. It was exceedingly singular altogether ineffective,
that, while their affairs were in a prosperous state, tween the two countries would continue no longer.
no measure of this kind was contemplated, but as soon It was true Ireland had occupied a good deal of the
se these affairs got into a state of confusion, then they , attention of Parliament
forced this Pleasure upon the House. He would give was not to be wondered
at when they considered the
his decided opposition to the Bill. state of the sister kingdom, and the magnitude of the
Mr. F. FRENCH wished to call the attention of the' measures which had been propounded for her relief.
Noble Lord at the head of the Government, and of the - The outcry the people of this, country had raised
Bight Hon. Baronet beside him, to certain comrnunica- against the landlords of Ireland was most unjust and
!ions which he had received of the lamentable state of most nndeserving, and he was surprised to see that the
some of the districts in Ireland. He found that, in the House of late had evinced a disposition to join in it.
workhouse of Castlecarey, the master, the matron, and The landlords were the true friends of Ireland; and
the surgeon, had died of the workhouse fever
instead of introducing measures calculated to harrass
which prevailed among its thousand inmates. them, Government ought to do all in their power to
He had now called the attention of the House to the assist them. In many respects the measure before the
state of things which existed, and he hoped some atten- House pressed most unjustly upon the landholders of
Lion would be paid to it by the Right Hon. Baronet the Ireland, and he very much feared that it would eventually
lead to the repeal of the union.
Home Secretary. Sir E. COLEBROOKE said, perhaps he might be
O upR
several
S .
MESfSroAmGEtheF Bills, . allowed to say a few words in justification of the
Messengers
brought THE
L
i vote he had given in opposition to the Government on
which were ordered to be laid on the table,
Viscount JOCELYN
wished to offer afew words. ; this question. He felt convinced that if the first clause
He believed that it was one of the most important mea- ! of this Bill could be successfully carried out, it would
sures ever introduced, and one which he could I tend to advance the happiness of a large portion of the
look upon without some degree of appre- i Irish people. lie had no personal knowledge of Ireland,
not look
lie wished that the amendments and al- 1 and all he knew of that country in connexion with this
terations which had been made might be the means I- question was gleaned from documents and returns which
of making it operate without danger to Ireland; still he had been laid before the House ; and the result of his
thought it would have been wiser if the Government had 1 examination of these returns and documents had led hiss
introduced a temporary measure to meet the evils, ! to think that this law could never be carried out in Ire-
instead of bringing in a misuse of a permanent i land. He felt convinced that out-door relief could not
character, during a time et excitement like the present. work successfully, because in Ireland there were not the
He was at a Liss to understand how they wereno come same resources and machinery ler carrying out such a
to any conclusion as to what might be the effect of the system as was to be found in this country. So far from
calamity upon the people,—(Hear, hear.) He felt that out-door relief tending to benefit the really poor and
this measure had not so fair a consideration as destitute man in Ireland, it would rather tend to increase
so grave a question demanded. He did feel the evils and sufferings that were now going on in
that they were legislating permanently for what Ireland. Looking, then, at the almost improbability
might be only a temporary calamity. No Minister at least for a short time, of carrying out this law in Ire-
ought to pass a measure inflicting the right of out- land, and believing that at the present moment, and
door relief without being at the same time pre- under existing circumstances, it was calculated to in-
pared to show that there could be a test im- crease the distress and sufferings of Ireland, he felt
re-
posed to prevent the abuse of the right. They luctantly constrained to oppose the Government on that
might be told that the poor law test might be applied, occasion.
but that would be bringing them back to a pauper Mr. ADDERLEY said the whole rating system of
workhouse test, which had inflicted so many Ireland was looked upon almost as a farce. The rates
grievances already. In this change about to be in sear
an eardboitrewaaavehriyghlartgimeeprtotplaot mrstioonetti
to the w
totalaa doneassestso-
effected there would be a great increase of pauperism. m
He hoped that in 1847,
when the law was under re- remove this painful state of things; whether this Bill
consideration, the evils which had hitherto attended its would attain that object he would not venture to say,
iottitaiLd be remedied. He recollected that an but if it were carried he felt convinced that it would
gogn7tMember, on a former occasion, urged it upon the never be successfully carried into effect.
Government to carry through a poor-law measure Mr. C. P. VILLIERS said the Bill was considered by
pari passes with the measure of the temporary the people of this country to be the only remedy for the
relief. Now, he was of opinion that the far-sighted evils of Ireland, and he thought great credit was due to
people of this island could not be better employed than her Majesty's Government for having persevered with it.
in bringing out the capabilities of Ireland. He would It was a well known tact that one- third of the copulation
not now enter iato the question whether all kinds of Ireland were always iu a state of starvation, and when
of property ought to be subject to a rate. they remembered that the population was on an increase
He wished to impress upon the Government the neces- without any prospect of an increase in the supply or pro-
sity of calling upon mortgagees, annuitants, and others, duction of food, no time ought to be lost to provide for
to contribute their far share towards the support of the such another visitation as the one the country was
people, as proposed by this Bill. No doubt now suffering under. That provision, then, he
many. of the proprietors of land, if they had thought was made by the Bill, because it held
imagined that such a burden as this would be out the principle that the land should always
imposed upon them would not have entered into arrange- be responsible for the support of the poor.
ments with others, for the purpose of raising money This measure would now announce to the people of
upon their property; but that was no reason why the Ireland that there was no further necessity for crime
land should not contribute to the support of the poor. and mendicity in that country. The condition of the
He considered that no able-bodied labourer, who sunk peasantry of Ireland was, that they endeavoured by
into distress, should be denied out-door relief, because bidding high rents for lands to endeavour to ward off a
temporary aid might enable him to get work again in a state of destitution ; and the consequence was non pay-
short period. He sincerely thanked the Noble Lord for ments of rents, and all the outrages attending and fol-
the spirit is which he had brought forward his measures lowing the exercise of the rights of property. This
with respect to Ireland. At no time had Ireland measure would now tell the people of that country that
offered so ample a field for the labours of a courageous they need not starve. The House had last session
Minister, and he trusted that this measure, in thrown out a coercion Bill, introduced by the late Go-
conjunction with others, would redound mate- vernment, because they believed that that measure did
rially to the advantage of that unhappy country. not go to the root of the evil ; and it was, therefore,
He said that the present moment was one to introduce a the duty cf this House to adopt other and milder mea-
most efficient system of legislation for Ireland. There sures than had yet been resorted to by the Government
were many Gentlemen who thought badly of the of this country. He thought the present measure
landlords of Ireland; he wasnot there to defend that class; was one well calculated to promote the same end
but if they would consult the report of the Commission, as was sought by the measure of last session.
they would find it stated that many of the cherges vise the protection of life and property. A great ob-
against the landlords of Ireland were exaggerated. jection had been made to the establishment of a system
However hateful the landlords of Ireland might be of out door relief in Ireland. Why, did not a system of
to this country, it was through them that they out-door relief' already exist in that country ? What
must assist the suffering people of that country. did that large amount of mendicity mean if it did not
The landlords only were in a position to give out to mean a system of out-door rein f ? What was the wide-
the poor people that assistance which tins country spre id evil of retaining possession of land without pay-
wished to extend to them ; and, therefore, it should be mg rent fir the same, but another system of out door
the aim of the Legislature to put them in such a position relief ? The present measure proposed only to legalise
that their good qualities could be exercised while their that which was now obtained by fraud and terror, by
bad ones could not be brought into play. Mueit had been upwards of 2,000,000 of vagrants, and place restrictions
said of the evils of the union of Ireland to this country, and a check upon that demoralising system. He thought
and many stated that that union would be that when the m -enure was pissed, all parties in Ireland
fatal to Ireland. Such a statement was incorrect. would feel it to be their bounden duty and int rest to
but he thought that if the union was fatal to the one put their shoulders to the task. and endeavour to i eve
country it would be fatal to the other ; for England relied themselves and their country froei the ruin which would
greatly for her prosperity on the well being of Ireland. otherwise overwhelm them. But it was said that the
Mr. TRELAWNY said, that as emigration was people oF Ireland were indolent and imprudent ;it surely
paid for out of the coffers of the State, it then was not the duty of this country to find
was only another mode of out-door relief. He industry and provident habits for the peeple? By this
would be against a poor-law, were he not assured that the measure, however, the House would say the people must
wandering paupers did much more injury to property not starve, and the rich, and the landlords of the country
than any poor•law could effect. He wanted to know must do their utmost to train them in habits of industry.
whether there was any intention to tax personal pro- From the paining of this measure, it was his firm opinion,
perty for the relief of the poor of Ireland. As yet no would be dated a new and successful era in the history
intimation to that effect had h :on given ; hut he trusted of that country. The measure was imperatively called
it would be done in the course of the present debate. for, and ;he people must be relieved from the fear of
He agreed in the main with the Bill, as he thought it starvation. The measure was also one of justice to the
sound and just in the whole, and therefore he would people of this country, who were called upon to make
not oppose it. greet sacrifices in order to meet the present distress of
Sir W. JAMES wished to offer a few words on the Ireland.—(Hear, hear.)
measure under the consideration of the House. He had Mr. MORGAN J. O'CONNELL thought that a
hoped that a system of emigration would have been in- system of well regulated emigration, or industrial ern-
troduced, but the statement of the Noble Lord at the ployment of the people of the country, would be attended
head of the Government had done much to damp their with great success, and form valuable adjuncts to this
expectations in that respect. Now one word regarding measure. This Bill had been exposed to great danger
the measure before the House. He agreed in the main by the clause which had been proposed by the Noble
with the excellent observations of the Noble Lord, the Lord the Member for Lynn, and which was only de-
Member for Lynn, that it was a measure which was feated by a very small majority, and if rumour
imperatively required, but they ought to beware that were true, there were strong reasons for
the evils pointed out by the excellent Prelate the Arch- supposing that a vigorous effort would be made
bishop of Dublin, in the other House, did not arise.— in another place in favour of the insertion of
(Cries of " Order, order.") lie thought that this mea • that clause. The object of that clause was to throw the
sure ought to be accompanied with another measure, burden of the poor's rates upon the tenant, and the argu-
giving some relief to land, from the great pressure to ments were founded upon the specious plea of assimilat-
which it was subject. ing the poor law of the two countries. It was, however,
Mr. P. SC ROPE said he regretted the many altera- one thing to legislate for the two countries upon the
tions which had been made in the Bill during its course same principles, but it was quite another thing to make
through the House ; alterations which had been hailed details of legislation the same in both countries; and he,
by the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn ; all of them as an Irish Member, begged to say that he was heartily
• concessions in favour of the landlords of Ireland. One glad that the good sense of the House had led it to re-
of these concessions was an alteration in the second jest the obnoxious clause. Although he was not one to
clause, limiting the authorising of out-door relief only join in animadversions on Irish landlords, yet he must
in case the workhouse was full. Another concession was say that there was some truth mixed up in the false alle-
the; immense increaseof ex- officio members of the board of gations made against them. He believed that at all
guardians. Applicants would, before they can receive re- events they took a very short-sighted view of their own
lief, be obliged to give up their farms, and operatingha interests. The curse of Ireland was the want of a com-
on 300,0( oor 400,000 individuals, would have a must mercial spirit among the people. They did not look upon
disastrous effect. There was another proposal of a most - the relations of landlord and tenant in a proper light—
infamous kind which would have the effect, he believed, namely, as a gain for each. They took a contrary
of throwing the whole of the rates upon the tenants, and view. They believed what was' the landlord's gain was
the Bill would in consequence, it was asserted, become their loss.
practically inopentive, and therefore ought to be re- Sir J. WALSH said he would remind the House that
boefro a r
e the When
jected by the House. Then there was the clause with the present meeasurrceamwaes
totally. louse. different
il
nhe
respect to the leases, which would again have the eff ct to that which se
y
of throwing the whole of the weight—an unknown were about to institute such an extensive system of out-
weight—upon the tenant, which would be excessively door relief, they were bound to see that the proper
oppressive at a future period. Something had been al- checks were placed in crder to guard against the abuses
leged in a pamphlet published by the Archbishop of which otherwise would arise. It was, then, in conse-
Dublin, which went entirely upon an assumption, for there quence of the extension of the principle of out-door
was not the slightest ground of proof to support the elle- relief that those with whom he acted felt themselves
gations to which the conclusions of the author led. bound to take the course they did. The apathy with
The author of this pamphlet asserted, that in the first which this question of such transcendent importance
place a poor-law never could be levied upon Ireland; arid was attended to was a curious illustration of the state of
if it were levied it would, secondly, be so burdensome a- parties in the House. All the great political economists
to be a greater evil than a benefit, so that it could never were against a system of out-door relief.
be carried into effect; and, thirdly, even if it were to An HoN. MEMBER—No, no ; Mr. Macculloch is in
be carried into effect as its directors desired, the result favour of it.
would be a destruction altogether of the poorer classes. Sir J. WALSH was not aware of the fact, but all the
Bat this was all assumption, and the assertion that there others held the opinion which he had stated, and among
could be no relief to the able-bodied poor; tor, if it were others the present Archbishop of Dublin. The present
aft irded it would altegether destroy the rents of the Bill, in rovTishmenres, introduced
differences the Englishh
to
were
were
the someml
lands, was equally groundless. For his oen part, he poor-law into Ireland.g
believed that the imposition of a sound poor-law would be sure, but its main features
be influential in improving the rental of Ireland. The which had been in operation for the last triertay tyears
eeltahiwne
Noble Lord the Member for Lynn (Lord G. Bentinek) England. Now, were they able to come befor
had asserted that the rental of Ireland was upwards of Irish people, and say we recommend you a law
17,000,0001., and other authorities, among whom Mr. which had been found without fault or blem-
Senior. had estimated it at _13,0Q0;009/., while others ish ? NV hy, what was _ the fact ? Why, they
again had stated that it was no more that, found some of the bitterest oppont nts of the mea-
-6,000 0001. Between these several accounts there was sure were in favour of its being enacted in Ireland. The
a sufficient margin, and take it as they would the rental pr sent was a moment which he considered far too dans
constituted a tolerably extensive fund, and one whieh gerous to introduce such a tremendous change as must
-would not be easily exhausted. At any rate, it would he Billow the enactment of this law. The whole history of
sufficient for the present, and there would be suffi,dent the Irish people was of one who had the mere neces•
to give an opportunity for bringing the pour-law into series of life, and who were contented to go on in•
effective action. Then ther; was a third allegation, that creasing and multiplying without an endeavour to ob-
the imposition of such a law would demoralise the Irish tain anything better, and that when that ";necessary"
peasantry. But what ground was there for this asser- failed, the whole population were thrown into destitution.
Sion? The Irish peas
trustworthy, 41'.1-11 had invariably shown himself It was
the greatest mistake in the world to suppose that
wherever his ever es could be brought into
play, and where his truth this poor-law would compel landlords—quasi landlords
at had been said that an Irishman relied upon; and although —to find employment for those who at present they had
long as he had a loaf of bread left
would never work so no inducement to employ, as the cultivation of the land
lmifeti, and that they were was in not in any way te be trusted, the majority of cases in the hands of the occupiers,
been shown to be the case, where Irisnhowever, had never and the greater proportion of the labour would
to the impulses of their own good ;amen had been left continue to be employed by them. It was absurd
the benevolent Mr. Foster had gone arn7ne ; and when to imagine that landlords would put occu-
men, who were in urgent distress, g the
fisher-- piers in their land, and provide crops and
lent them money, they had invariably baened had labourers for them. The public mind ought, therefore,
to go out, and bad done so with considerablensurceeady
been lent to be disabused of this notion. After all he had heard,
and had brought in such a quantity of fish as had peesos: he confessed that his opinions as to holicy of the
measure remained unchanged. Out-door relief would
diced 800 per cent. on the money which had
It
was I entail far too great expe' se upon the land. It would be
to them, and which had honourably been repaid. 1 entail
that the proprietors of land would be over
evident that the Irish people were alwaya ready
Na
muurenlikiel
to avail themselves daisy advantage that.could be thrown 1 landlords,
Eda.r_adieted of it,
unlikely
would
three destroyfor
all
timethe existingtoe om t.
not effect much good. But he in their their way, and had evinced the utmost readiness to llt certaini3anwil nicit
exert themselves to procure a subsistence for themselves 1 cerely trusht"tbuh:asitnit would not aecomplish all the mis-
land their families ; in all cases where they had been put chief that
-as object mwaissretopraeffs
oe nr
dt a
ot iuotn.
to task work, no men had excelled them in the results Mr. S. CRAW,'
-which had arisen from their labours. In England they of' the Bill to say,the
able
thtiatDitsaid " w a
-
had always shown themselves ready to undertake work i door relief to
.which English labourers would not touch. Such was I only to be afforded when the out-door relief was
workhouses
the case in America, and in the latter country the poor ito hold them. Out-door relief was 0 were too full
lexpetritted Irish had aha-lu-ely made lip a fund of ! of the measure, and by no means its of
the exceptions .
AVE ,v. 344 he relief of their distressed fellow-country- I the Horn. Baronet who had • s general object. If
just addressed the II
p....::, ...3,, . (mid conclude with reading a letter i would refer to the blue books containing evidence°11"
t 1 ". - ..,1)- le, written in the year 1831, which .the state of Ireland, be would find tint thepresenton
- . if
prOphi".,44 ' 4IW If some sufficient previ.ien was I condition of Ireland was caused by the WA-
. tot tr 4410 giai the poor. that the whole foundation lords whom he had stood up to defend.
' , pril4,lty.- to ;yid be broken up. That prophecy had and instesd of preventing the sub-division of the land,
I
pot..ay coma re pass. But it had been alleged that this they had from time to time done all in their power to
ra hid beva too suddenly and too frankly intrAueed I
i promote it ; and it had been let and under-let, until the
. UM 4 ouglat 4)11370 bettil tatroduc‘d real occupation could not afford to pay the :en: winch '

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