The Sun.
London, England, 1847-01-26 00:00:00

impoverished and pauperised people, with its agricultere
teriorating from day to day. Supposing this area were to be ell-
vided into compartments of 20 or 50 acres, It would be laying
the foundation of one of the greatest e*illezed ereinid
—a rising population without means to enabler them to culti-
vate the soil. Let them look at France and see how
the subdivision of land was injuring that grew! country.
He would rese• ye to himself the opportunity on a future occa-
sion of giving further expression to his opinion on the measure
of her Majesty's Government.
In answer to a question put by Lord HAMILTON, we un-
stood the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say that it was not
lroposed to allow the proprietors of land in Ire-
and to obtain money from the Goveinrnent for the
purpose of carrying on the ordinary cultivation of the land.
He begged to state that relative to the parish of Skibbereen, it
should be borne in mind that there were an immense number
of persons now to be fed, who had never required to be fed
before; and in one parish in that union the deaths at present
amounted to 25 per day. Having stated this he was most
anxious to ask two questions of her Majesty's Government
whether it was their intention to bring in a Bill to enlarge
the Piers and Fisheries' Act by affording greater facilities, and
also whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Govern-
ment to take steps in consequence of the survey then making
of Cork harbour (which they had been requested to do in
consequence of an important meeting held there to take
steps for the improvement and extension of that harbour. He
thought that he might state that any outlay laid out on the
harbour of Cork would be a most politic measure in conse-
quence of its important geographical position, and its import-,
mice in the case of war.
Mr. GRATTAN thought it most important, in considering
the propriety of adjourning the debate, to consider what time
the debate should be adjourned to. He fully coincided in the
remarks made by the Noble Lord opposite, as to the state of
the parish of Skibbereen. He had received a letter from a
gentleman in whom every confidence might be placed, and he
stated that the only red ground seen now was in the church,
yard, and so great was the number of deaths, that five acres
more were taken ,in to add to the churchyard. The Ministry
said that nothing could be done to remedy this dreadful visita-
tion. He remembered when something was done. When the
Right Hon. Gentleman who sat beside him (Sir R. H. Inglis. )
and himself were young, the greatest names which the country
could produce, who then ruled the destinies of the empire, took
measures for the speedy relief of Ireland. He remembered
also, at a period not long remote, there were imported from
foreign. countries 3,700,000 quarters of grain, and from Ireland
1,776,000 quay ters, making over 5,000,000 quarters, and she
sent back to the fatter country 47,000 quarters. Out of a
revenue which Rome, in its palmiest days, could
never have boasted—out of a revenue of 53.000,000/.,
having an excess of 2,3oo,oool.—England allowed gram to
reach 325. a barrel, and oatmeal 4s. 2d. a stone, while the
wages of the labourer in Ireland only averaged Sd. and 9d. a
day. He thought, therefore, if they adjourned this debate for
a week, they ought to send over food in the meantime. If
they had sent some relief to the southern counties in time,
much of the present expense might have been spared them.
There seemed to be a determination on both sides of the House
not to continue this debate. The Noble Lord had made a
very able speech. He had drawn a picture of Scotland, Eng-
land, and Ireland. He (Mr. Grattan), would not quote from
the books referred to by the Noble Lord, but he would only
remind them of the state of Ireland before that country was
handed over to him and his predecessors. He would ask the
,Noble Lord why the Duke of Buckingham paid
only 6,0001. in his neighbourhood, when he (Mr.
Grattan) was actually taxed for teaching the children
of his tenantry? Did they think that if individuals
like the Duke of Buckingham, lived in the country, the loss of
this esculent would have ruined Ireland. He would impress
the Noble Lord on this point, that if he intended to tax those
men who lived at home, they should also tax those who had
abandoned their country, for he (Mr. Grattan) did not think
that a man discharged his duty to his country, if he ran away,
and left the people on his:estate to perish. Earl Fitawilliam,
took his 50,0001. from the same part of the country, and Lord
Portsmouth, was also a great proprietor. Ile trusted, there-
fore, that the Noble Lord would tax those gentlemen double,
and he could assure the Noble Lord that the union with Irelancl
could never be stable, until they had a contented peasantry, a
happy yeomanry, and a resident gentry.,
Colonel VERNER said that there was one important point
which seemed to have escaped the attention of all those who
had addressed the House that evening. He referred to the
purchase of *re-arms by the discontented peasantry. He
had had a communication from a gentleman connected with
the county which he had the honour to represent, and he was
assured by that gentleman that a certain dealer had sold in a par-
ticular district of that county net less than 1,000 stand of arms,
while at the same time not a farthing of rent was paid by any
of the tenantry. In fact, it was dangerous to walk along the
public road, for such was the practice at targets, that the pea-
santry, unaware to what length the guns would carry, very
frequently missed by a hair's breadth the lives of the passers
by. He would submit to the Noble Lord, that when people
were steeped in destitution like Ireland, it was high time for
Government to interfere and prevent the exportation of oatmeal
from that country. Just before he left Ireland he gave his steward
instructions to purchase a quantity of meal, but he had since
learned that there was none to be had. This state of things
could not have existed, had Government taken steps to prevent
its being exported by speculative dealers.
Mr. 'I UITE said he wished particularly to be allowed to refer
to one circumstance the Noble Lord had mentioned. The
Noble Lord had stated that farmers, who held 30, 40, and 60
acres of land, sent their son to participate in the distribution
of funds, which had been intended for the relief of
the peer starving population.—( Hear, hear.) Now
he had attended very closely to the working of relief
committees in his part of the country, and he was quite
convinced such a circumstance as that mentioned by the Noble
Lord could not take place without the sanction of the relief com-
mittee of the district where it occurred. He thought it due
to those relief committees, who had done their duty, that the
names of the committee who had suffered such a disgraceful
occurrence to take place should be published to the world. He
had no doubt that it had taken place, but he attri-
buted it all to absenteeism—the curse of Ireland.—( Hear,
hear.) He would net trouble the House any further, ex-
cept to regret that the Noble Lord had not named an earlier
day than Monday for the further discussion of those measures.
Mr. HUSIE had heard with great satisfaction the statement
of the Noble Lord, but still he must take exception to one or
two of his points. The Noble Lord had, with great candour,
stated the evils that hid atisen from the attempt of Govern-
ment agents to employ the peeple. The Noble Lord had
stated enough to convince them that the system had produced
as much evil as good, and the sooner it was brought to a
close the better. There was one experiment in which he
felt convinced Government would fail. He alluded to their
Intention to reclaim waste lands. These attempts had always
failed, and resulted in robbing this country of much of its
capital. if the land was worth reclaiming, their would always
be plenty of private capital to do it with, provided Govern-
ment would only consent to simplify the transference of land
in Ireland, and establish there a similar land registry to that
of Scotland. Now land agents had recently told him that there
was plenty of private capital in this country ready to be ap-
plied to the recovery of waste lands in Ireland, but for the
expensive and complicated machinery of conveying it, and the
continued intermeddling of Government.
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN rose for the purpose of putting
a question to the Government upon one point of the Noble
Lord's speech which he wished to have explained. It related
to the jurisdiction—the contemporaneous jurisdiction of relief
committees and boards of guardians. Did the Noble Lord
mean to put an end to the relief committee! or to combine
them as boards of guardians ? At present each had a separate
jurisdiction, and be should be glad to know how this was to be
in future.—( Hear, hear.) Since the commencement of this
session he had heard a good many charges brought against the
Government for passing the Labour-rate Act. Now, he was
quite ready to admit that Government could have been justly
blamed for bringing forward such a measure, but after the
House had passed a;measure, responsibility ought to be shared by
the kjeuse.—(Cheers.) He knew, from experience, that what
the Noble Lord had said with regard to the landholders of
Ireland was corrrect, and he was quite ready to allow that
whatever had been the errors of former occupants of the land,
it ought still to be made
_responsible for the maintenance of the
poor. Unless, therefore, the landholders were prepared to co-
operate with the Government, with self-denial, energy, and
exertions which were not to be confined within common bounds,
or limited within ordinary duration, Ireland never could be
freed from its wretchedness and suffering.—( Hear, hear.)
He warned the Noble Lord, however, that if the landholders
of Ireland were slow to avail themselves of Government's
assistance, it would not be from a lack of desire to do se,
but because they were ruled by an agrarian law,
that had its origin with their forefathers, and which placed
them in extraordinary difficulties. All those who were ac-
quainted with land holding in Ireland, must be aware that it
was not a very easy matter to induce a tenant, to increase his
rent, for the improvement of his farm. It was difficult to put
suck a question ; or if it were put, no doubt the landlord would
only give one very significant answer.—( Hear, bear.) The
Noble Lord must, therefore, be prepared to find a slow opera-
tion of his measure. He regretted to hear his Honourable and
Gallant Friend, the Member for Clare, blame the Government
for not putting a stop to the exportation of oatmeal from Ire-
land, because he was decidedly of opinion that it was for the
benefit of all parties that the trade should be free and un-
fettered. He would relate a simple anecdote to show why he
thought so, which would perhaps carry much more weight with
it than any arguments based un political economy he could
urge in favour of the principle. He spent the end of last
summer and the early part of autumn in two very different
parts of Ireland. He dwelt first on the alluvial shores of the
river Shannon, and then passed to the mountainous districts of
the county of Clare. He found in the last place that in con-
sequence of the peculiar nature of the climate they had to de-
pend almost entirely upon oatmeal. The crop, however, this
year was exceedingly short, and in consequence of the failure
of the potato crop they were compelled to carry their oats to
Limerick, then sell them in the market, and puwhase wheat
imported from England. The oats brought an excellent price
but had Government interfered to prevent their expor-
tation these poor people would have been entirely de-
prived of food. This showed the necessity there was for
the interchange of the commodities of the two countries.
He begged to express his entire concurrence in the general
views laid down by the Noble Lord. He cordially hailed the
proposition that the land of Ireland should support the poor of
Ireland. Before concluding, however, he would draw one
more moral from the calamities of Ireland, which was, that it
was to the landowners and proprietors of Ireland that the
country alone should look for its political regeneration.r
v.__
Mr. ROEBUCK could not entirely concur in every from
taken by the Noble Lord; he could not,
"iohdlifwfivienargh,at he would
expressing his admiration of the tone and
racterised the whole of the speech of the voblewLhoicrdh. hHats.
elaborate scheme.
find it easy to carry out t
the
money I r i shp
asselda
ol,noamNrndos,eB
ihnteeor,
Lord's plan referring to the pre-
' of the Noble
could not, however, allow
That portion
sent difficulties he ( •
Mr Roebuck)
referringw ouldt not
the
rtehgeenn a
rt
aotui cot
the
worldwhole to
his
o
That portion, however,
could not connect with the end proposed the
upn.
Roebuck)ngland considered
s i
fosterdered
whichghehad been proposed by the Noble Lord in his
the moHneey (Afriorna.
that
speech
meansch Ireland,
tattaking
night.
was a grievous
;ountry to Ireland
tweasriaaibbseonluohteelsy.)giveHnetohathdernse.e—n
loan
nomof ththeespluinhilsic
earnrdor. "Asillt the
money sent over to Ireland, but 'the had
ynever come back
again, and it was proposed to take only one-half of the money
in return for the advance which was proposed to be made.
He was glad to hear that a blow was now struck at the root of
the evil in Ireland, and that it was ackn,iwledged that the
land of Ireland must support the poor of Ireland. The Noble
Lord would no doubt meet with considerable opposition
from the landlords of Ireland, for the measure would no
doubt be a bitter one to them. He hoped, however,
that the Noble Lord would preserve that gallant bearing which'''
he had shown that night,and not spoil the effect of his measure
by endeavouring to sweeten it or make it more palatable to the
people of Ireland by taxing the people of England for them,
and he hoped the Noble Lord would recollect that there was a
large English population to be considered even in legislating.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would take
that opportunity of answering several questions which bad been
put to him by Hon. Members. He had been asked what was
the distinction between the functions of the board of guar-
dians and the relief committees. The Government did not
propose to make any alteration in the functions of the board of
guardians. They were to remain as at present
of the
prescnt constituted,
and to continue to superintend the administration
poor-
law, but in each electoral division a relief committee was to be
appointed. The members of the board of guardians and the
magistrates of the county would be ex-quieter members of the
re le committees. fThese committees were to be constituted