The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-20 00:00:00

POOR-LAWS.

The Marquis of TIANSDOIIVNE presented a petition
from the rate-payers of Killernay, complaining of the
forty-seventh section of the Irish Poor-law Act.
GRAND JURIES (CORK).
The NOBLE MARQUIS also presented a petition from
the Corporation of Cork, praying for the equalisation of
the grand jury cess 'rate in that county.
REGISTRATION IN SCOTLAND.
The NOBLE MARQUIS (in the absence of the Duke of
Sutherland) presented a petition from the Presbytery
of Caithness, praying that births, deaths, and marriages,
might b 3 registered in Scotland as in England.
INDIAN RAILWAYS.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH wished to know
whether the Noble Marquis (Lansdowne) was pre-
pared to lay on the table copies of the communications
which had taken place between the Government of this
country and the shareholders in certain Indian rail-
ways, with respect to the granting of loans for their
construction. The Government had opposed, on finan-
cial grounds, tho granting of money for the construction
of Irish railways ; he was, therefore, anxious to
know whether the Government—or rather the Go-
vernment of. India—intended to act, on a si-
milar
principle, with respect to Indian railways.
The reason fin- his asking this question was because of a
rumour which ho had heard some short time ago, and
vdtich, if true, showed that the interests of India were
much injured by the course which was at present per
sued. It was well known that money could be raised at
31 per cent. to a considerable extent, for several
suce:es ire years, without producing any material
effect upon the money market in this country ;
but in India, at the present moment, he regretted
to say that money could only be raised at 5 per c'nt.
Very recently the Government cl India found theen
selves compelled to open a new loan at 5 per cent. A
return of four per cent. was guaranteed to those F pecula-
ties who were interested in the loom. Their Lerdships
would at once see that if the Indian Government wished
to return to the four per cent. loans, it was impracticable,
as the same amount of interest was now guaranteed
on railways and upon the same security, while
the many advantages of patronage, and, he regretted
to s ty, of the jobbing system,:were, secured to the rail -Nay
proprietor. If a 5 per c,nt. loan were now opened, if
it °Leo reduced the premium npen the capital advanced
upon fog met. 5 per cent. loans, fuel the per cent. went
down to 10 or I dieeount, it would produce the run.
serioue 1 uses to the Indian capitalists.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE sa!d, that if the
Noble Lord hail given notice of his queetion, he would
have been better informed on the salver. The state of
the ease was this. Two montbs had elapsed since the
Board of Control :Lade known to the Indian Railway Com-
pany upon what terms and conditions certain edvances
could be made to pay for those undertakinge. No
arise er had been received from those conipanii-s—a
pretty strong proof that the terms wore not considered
sufficiently advantageous, or they would at once have
closed with them. As soon as the correspondence was
in a complete state, it should be laid on the table of the
House.

Atter a few words from Lord BROUGIUM,
Thii Duke of RICHMOND said that with regard to
these measures he was very sorry that such an example
had been sot, as the people of Ireland would be furnished
with an additional argument for a repeal of the union,
a; offers of the assistance which had been refused to Ire-
land, hail been made to India.

The Marquis of LAN6I)O NNE said, that when the
correspondence appeared, the Irish people would not
have any additional argument for a repeal the union.
The Earl of RIPON said, that when he was in 1841, Pre-
sident of the Board of Control, the Government had declared
itself favourable to the general principle of the establish-
ment of railways. A deputation had called upon him, and he
informed them that he concurred in the general impression
that prevailed of the utility of the railway system in India, and
that he was sure the Government would give it their support.
They (the deputation) then intimated that that support would
involve pecuniary assistance, and without it they doubted
whether they coup go on. In that ease, he thonght the Go-
vernment ought to issue a canamssion, and a gentleman wan
accordingly appointed who reported upon the subject. He
conceived they ought not to du more for Ireland than they had
alre-Idy don'? for India.
The conversation then dropped.
BANK RETURNS.

Lord ASHBURTON then moved for the returns of the
account of capital or stock authorised to be raised by any rail-
way companies by any Acts passed during the two last sessions
of Parliament, of the amount of money actually so raised, and
of the a:nount remaining to be paid. Also, account
of the MUM authorised to be borrowed by all railway
companies under the powers given them by Acts
of the two last sessions of Parliament. Also, ac-
count of all stuns borrowed by all the several railway companies
from the period of their commencement to the present time ;
distinguishing each year, and stating the amount of such debt
still outstanding ' • stating also the rate of interest at which
such sums were borrowed, and the several periods when the
money so borrowed is promised to be repaid. Also, an ac-
count of the amount which each of the several railway corn•
ponies have stall power ,to borrow by their several Acts of
Parliament. And also, account of the proposed amount of
capital, and of the proposed power of borrowing, of all
railways of which notice has been given to the Railway Com-
missioners, of Bills intended to be presented to Parliament
daring the present session. Account of the value of
all goll and silver coin and bullion in the Bank
of England at the several periods when the returns are
made public, from the Ist January, 1846, down to the latest
period. A ;so a monthly return of Exchequer-bills, held by the
Bank of England during the same period. Also return of the
amount of discounted bills by the Bank of England during the
same period. And also, return of all investments by the Bank
of England in the bonds, debentures, or other engagements
for burrowing money of any railway comrany ; stating the
periods of such investments, the rate of interest at which they
mere made, the periods of promised repayment, and the sums
still remaining due to the bank.

The Earl of CLARENDON said that with regard to the
first and second returns moved for by the Noble Lord, there
could be no objection to the granting of them, but as regarded
the other threw he did not conceive it fair to the Bank of Eng-
land to give an opportunity to joint-stock companies and other
banking rivals, to know the whole of their investments and
private business—business the particulars of which was even
denied by the directors to their own proprietors. The Noble
Lord then read the 6th clause, to show what returns they were
compelled to make weekly. Parliament had, therefore, limited
the amount of information necessary to be published, and
those returns were accordingly published by the Bank of
England every week. If these returns were granted, a pre-
cedent might be established for calling upon the Bank of England
to give information as to the amount of assistance furnished by
the Bank to t tali merchant or other party. The Noble Lord
had not brought ferward any grounds for his motion, and he
thought that if the returns were granted, it would be con-
sidered as a slur upon the conduct of the directo• s and detri-
mental to the interests of the Bank. He hoped, therefore,
that the Noble Lord woald not press his motion.
Lord A SHBUR TON thought, that considering the present
state of the circulation, it %cis necessary to have the returns he
had moved for, in order to show to what extent
the circulation had been affected by the new
species of public securities by investments in railways.
It was quite trite that Parliament hair stated what
returns were to be published, but that was no reason why the
directors of the Bank of England should refuse, out of cour-
tesy, to grant those returns, which were necessary to assist the
Government in conducting the financial affairs of the country.
Lord MONTE A GLE ob.ervod that be did not think there
would be any objection on the Fart of the Bank to grant the
returns. The returns, if they were furnished, would afford the
House the means of judging of the vast extent to which
railway speculations were being carried, and would,
perhaps, lead them to be chary of passing such
a large number of Bills, within a limited period,
as they had been in the habit of doing. Yet he did
not think the returns necessary as his Noble Friend seemed
to him to possess all the knowledge which was necessary for
the object which he had in view.
Lord BROUGHAM said those who did not possess so
much knowledge of the proceedings in the " Bank parlour,"
as his Noble Friend (Lord Monteagle) could not form an
accurate opinion on the subject. The withdrawal of the
motion would not preclude the Bank of England from volun-
tarily offering the desired information; but if they did not do
so he should think they had some motive for withholding it.
Lord ASHBURTON begged to be understood as casting
no resection whatever upon the Bank, for he was convinced
that they were a highly honourable body. He ea:led for this
information with other views, and not with the view of in any
"at impugning its credit.
Altera few words from the Earl of RADNOR the motion
was agreed to.
LAST DAY FOR APPOINTING RAILWAY CONI-
MITTEESj
Lord REDS
SDALE moved that no Committee should to
appointed on anya.ra.iglwa4lßt ill after the sth of July next.
The motion w
Lord STANLEY r;resenot.edott..o petitions. The first peti-
tion was from alarge number farmers and landed proprietors
against the use of sugar m disteleries ; the second was from
several distillers in Scotland,
ships would not sanction aPrlying that their Lord-
than 4e. WI. per gallon or, rum. lower rate Gf duty
SUGAR BREWERY AND DISTILLERY BILL
Earl GI: EY presented a petition from the Standing.
the West India planters, praying for the remission'm-
mittee off
all duties ow sager used in distilleries and breweries.
Lord WIN TE AGLE prweeted a similar petition from the
agents of tile West India planters to the same effect..
Lord CL A R ENDON presented three petitions, one from
ti e llauritius association ; one from the members of the London
West India and China Association; and one from the merchants
and traders of London, to the same effect.
Lord MOUNTCASIIEL presented a petition from
praying
fromthe
agrieulttuists of Itlacraom,
lacroom, in the county of
their Lordships to protect agriculturalinterestsa.gainst bthe
ef
Bill
operations of the Brewing and Distilling Sugar now
fere the House.
The Earl of CLARENDON said that it had been said that
this measure ought to be a temporary one, and that it had been
included in the measures of the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government with other measures of a temporary nature. Now,
although there existed a most distressing famine in Ireland,
and he believed that this measure would, if passed, tend to set
Ire* a great quantity of food for the people of Ireland, still he

would say, that if that distress had not existed, the Government
would have been bound to introduce this measure, in conse-
quence of the pledge given at the close of last session by her
Majesty's Government. The colonists of the West Indies,
therefore, claimed this Bill as a right. If the present measure
were to he a temporary one, and only to last till next Septem-
ber, there would be no security whatever to the brewer, the
distiller, or the colonist, and the greatest amount of evil would
result from the speculation to which the measure would give
rise. He would explain to the House the oneration
of the proposed measure. The duty on malt was
21s. 6d. per quarter ; the duty upon 180 lbs. of sugar, which
would be equivalent in yield to one quarter of malt, was 925. 6d.
He was not, however, quite sure but that from the improved
modes adopted by the brewers, he had reduced 1801bs. of sugar
to an estimate much too low to be compared with a tosarter of
malt. He believed that 200, or even 2101bs. of sugar was
nearer the mark. If, therefore, 18'llbs. of sugar (taking the
lowest estimate), paid 225. 6d. duty, and one quarter of malt
paid 21s. 9.1., it was clear that the Government would be a
loser t!) a trifling amount-9d. upon each quarter. He did not
think, however, that sugar could ever be substituted for malt,
except when malt was excessively high, or sugar exceedingly
low. Malt was from 87s. to 89s. per quarter, and already the
price of beer had been raised Id. per pot, at the rate of 25 per
cent., which to a labouring man was no small consideration.
Taking the price of malt at 845., deducting, however, from that
the sum of 2s. 6d. as allowance for grains, and the price of
1801bs. of sugar, at 755. 61, it would cause a saving to the
brewer of the sum of 6i. upon each quarter, which to the
consumer would make a considerable difference. It was the
wish of the West Indians, that molasses should be admitted
equally with sugar for the purposes of brewing. The Govern-
ment, however, did not think it expedient to accede to those
wishes. The duty on molasses was ss. 9d., and if 2521b5. of
molasses equalled one quarter of malt, the duty would require
to be raised from ss. 9d. to 9s. 4d., in order to place them
upon the same footing. Molasses varied very much
in the amount of saccharine matter, and different
rates of duty would be required in order to make
it equivalent to the rate of duty now imposed ; and
great expense to the State and inconvenience to the brewer
would be caused by the Excise officers, whose supervision
would of course be required. Now, with respect to the use of
sugar in distillation : the present amount of duty levied upon
spirits equalled a sum of 5,200,0001. The great obstacle
hitherto to the use of sugar in distilleries has been the amount
of duty levied upon it. British spirit was produced from a
mixture consisting of 2 parts malt, 1 part oats, and 18 parts
of barley; and the spirit the result of that distillation was
7s. 10d. per gallon. It was now proposed that
the duty upon the sugar should be the same
as upon the spirits distilled from grain. In order
to carry this into effect, it was proposed that the dis-
tiller should take the sugar out of bond, paying the duty upon
it, and when he paid his spirit duty an allowance should be
made to him equal to the difference of the sums he had paid
upon the sugar and the sum he would have had to pay upon
the malt. Now the quantity of spirit produced from sugar had
been proved by experiments made in the years 1799, 1812,
and 1831, by the excise officers themselves, and also by a most
eminent chemist, that the yield of 1121bs. of sugar was equal
to 11 gallons of spirits at proof. Upon this 111,, gallons of
spirits produced from 1121bs. of sugar a drawback of 121. 10d.
would be allowed, the duty upon that quantity of sugar would
be about 14s. in ordinary times, when the price of barley was
305., he did not think, therefore, that agriculturists would have
much cause for apprehending a diminished consumption of
barley. Believing that it was most expedient to pass the mea-
sure wi'hout delay, he hoped the House would go at once iota
Commi, tee on the Bill. _

Lord STANLEY hoped before he proceeded to comment on
the statement of the Noble Earl that he should not be consi-
dered disrespectful if he drew the attention of their Lordships
to a portion of the speech delivered by the Queen at the com-
mencement of the session. Her Majesty in her epeech stated
" that it would be the duty of Parliament to consider what
further measures will be required to alleviate the distress," and
recommending Parliament " to take into its serious consider-
ation whether increasing for a limited period facilities for im-
porting the corn of foreign countries, and the admission of
sugar into breweries and distilleries, might not be beneficial."
It will not be denied, that when Parliament met, the inference
to be drawn from that recommendation was, that
her Majesty's Government would advise Parliament, with a
view to the mitigation of the existing distress, to adopt mea-
sures to promote a freer adrni'sion of corn tree of duty, and the
freer adnii,son of sugar into breweries and distilleries ; and he
could not but repeat the regret which he had al-
ready expressed, that this Bill, unlike some of the others,
proposed for the purpose of alleviating that distress, should par-
take of a permanent iastead of a temporary nature.—( Cheers.)
He was sure every one in that House would do him the justice
to say, that the temporary measures propounded by the Go-
vernment had not met, in that or the other House of Parlia-
inent,with any factious opposition, or that their progress had
heen unduly retarded.—( Hear, hear.) He thought the Go-
vernment itself would admit V•at no disposition had beeu
shown to interrupt for a single moment the passing of 'nee-
'tires which were proposed for the purpose of remedying
the distress that prevailed.—(Hear, hear.) The utmost
he contended was this—that if his Noble Friend had intro-
duced this as a temporary measure there would have been no
occasion for discussion—no occasion for a Select Committee
to inquire into the merits of the provision. If they had
stated that it was a temporary measure brought forward for
the sole purpose of alleviating that distress, he was satisfied
that with respect to this and the other measures no opposition
would have been offered.—( Hear, hear); but when he found
that it did not partake of a temporary character—that it was
not brought forward as a remedy for that distress—
or, rather brought forward under cover of that dis-
tress, for the purpose of altering a great portion of
our commercial policy, he did not think he went too far
in saying that the slight examination to which the Bill, if it
had been temporary, would have been subjected could be fol-
lowed, and that they should not do well to pass such a measure
without they had the fulleit information as to the effect which it
would have upon the sugar producers of other countries, and
upon the barley growers of this. Another course was adopted
in 1795 and 1803, and upon many subsequent occasions, when
it was found that a sufficient quantity of grain could
not be obtained for the purposes of brewing and
distilling, as the measures brought forward at those
periods for allowing the use of sugar were tem-
porary. If the Government had come forward and said, as
other Governments bad said in proposing similar measures, that
the stock of grain was small, and that it was desirable to eeono-
mise the use of grain in ,breweries till the next harvest ; he
should not have opposed a measure which proposed to admit
sugar in breweries and distilleries in lieu of grain. No diffi-
culty would have been experienced in obtaining the sanction of
Parliament to such a measure. His Noble Friend had telked
about a pledge which was given to the West Indian interests
lest year; but he (Lord Stanley) knew of ne pledge, nor of
anything the Government had for making a pledge, that in
this session measures would be proposed for facilitating the
admission of their sugar into this country for brewing and
distilling. A pledge given at the end of last session that those
interests should receive the early attention of Parliament this
session was not tantamount to a pledge to bring forward such a
measure in this. But what he (Lord Stanley) said was—do
not let them take the necessity of this measure from the
Government ; but let them see whether they had justice and
policy on their side, and sshether what was declared by them
to be a great boon would not be found to be absolutely nugatorj
and ineffectual, but rather a boon to the foreign producer
of slave grown sugar.—(Hear, hear.) The West Indian
interests would gain nothing, as but a small portion of their
sugar would be imported, and the gradually diminishing rate
of duty upon all sugars would more and more bring producers
of slave-grown sugar into competition with West Indian sugar,
and with the producers of barley in this country. The Noble
Earl, in speaking of Canadian corn, alluded to a speech deli-
vered by him (Lord Stanley), in which he expressed an
opinion favourable to putting the producers of that corn on an
equal footing with the producers of cern at home. He had no
doubt that he stated, on behalf of the Government, that a
pledge ha:l been given that the subject should receive conside-
ration in the interim, an that a motion, which was then be-
fore the House, was withdrawn on that understanding, but
when and where the pledge he had already referred to was
given lie wee at a loss to know.
Lord GREY said it was given in the House of Commons
during the progress of the Sugar Duties Bill.
Load STANLEY proceeded to comment upon the state-
ment made by the Noble Earl that " restrictions upon trade
could not be permanently maintained, and that they could not
permanently place duties on their own colonies." Now he
(Lord Stanley) thought the Government were, in speaking
thus, following a course, the progress of which they should
watch with jealousy. First of all, measures had been passed for
abolishing tie protection which the British agriculturists had
for years enjoyed, using as an argument in favot.r of it that a
measure to cheapen the price of sugar should follow it ; and
now the West Indian interests claimed a similar advantage.
/le watched the measure with much jealousy owing to what had
taken place during the last few weeks. At the co.nmence-
ment of the session they were told that a temporary suspension
of the navigation laws was necessary. There was not a dis-
sentient voice to its passing as a temporary measure ;
but what followed? A motion was made in the
other House of Parliament on the ground that,
as all other restrictions had been removed, that the ship
owners had no right to maintain a monopoly; and that the
colonies had a right to receive their produce in the ships of
any nation ; but if the argument was received, and the propo-
sition were adopted, that protection which had made their navy
what it was, would be swept away as an useless relic of former
times. But what course did her Majesty', Government
pursue? They gave the proposition their cordial support, and
conserved to the appointment of a Committee. Sometimes
when a question was brought forward for examination on
account of the facts and figures involved the Govern-
ment thought it convenient to refuse an inquiry. Although
the Noble Lord stated that restrictions ought to be removed,
and that they could not shut out the produce of their colonies
by high duties, yet in the third clause of the Bill it appeared,
that if any brewer should make use of any molasses,
sugar, syrup, honey, except on what the duty had been
ea,
id or having them in his house, should be liable to a fine of
'2001.—( Hear, hear.) He did not say that that was an im-
proper restriction for the purposes of revenue, yet this was
consonant with their free trade notions.—( Hear.) If the
principles of free trade were to be held sacred, he saw no
reason wby,at least, they should not be extended to home pro-
duce.—( Hear.) If the figures of the Noble Earl were cor-
rect, the measure could hardly alleviate the present distress, at
the present price of malt and barley. What he wished to urge
upon their Lordships was, that before they adopted
this principle that they should be satisfied by inquiries that
those calculations were correct. He almost despaired to make
the calculations intelligible, on which the expediency of the
measure was based. He said it had been assumed that 112 lbs.
of sugar were equivalent to eleven gallons and a-half of spirits,
but then, he went on to say, to find an equivalent in barley and
in malt you must examine what quantity of spirits they would
produce, and unon the fact of those quantities the correctness
of his calculations depended. The Noble Earl said he was
undecided whether a quarter of malt was equal to 160 lbs. or
200 lbs. of sager, and yet on that difference, amount-
ing somewhere to about two gallons, one-tenth,
the Noble Earl, on these figures, was prepared
to bring these two commodities into close competition. He
said, however, he would argue on the assumption that 1801bs.
would produce that quantity. If he would refer to the evidence
adduced before a Committee in 1831, he would find roost con-
tradictory statements. One gentleman said that a quarter of
malt ought to produce 18i; another, that 18 gallons ought to be
produced from a quarter of the very best malt; and that he had
milted largely, and that the highest amount obtained was 18gel-
lons from a quarter of malt, and that the lowest was 14, but that
the average was 16 gallons. The difference, therefore between 16
and 20 gallons was just the value of one•fifth of the article.
Another stated that eighteen gallons ought to be produced from
very superior barley malt. Mr. Ure, who was examined be-
fore the Committee, stated that the produce from the same
quarialtity was not eighteen, nor sixteen, but fifteen gallons.
if Were so, instead of making the comparison of
the
ENeoble. Lord, they would have to compare with 160 lbs.
ecoeßmepetit.iOnoulhdbetawd therefore, be a difference of 401b5.,
thosebe differ
which
eento decidedent
artltiieeles.nat‘uvrie2ereofstattle_
carefully into the '
tnents were so varied, it asbincumbetit upon them to inquire
as the operation of such statistics,aanto
measureefore coming to a determination,
could not fail, ultimately,
a4produce, by the intro-
ductionHe found, when
to injure the agricultural
r relied for the
of foreign sugar at a smaeliiii
avannreate;
the experiment was tried on whichthe Government
success of this measure, the price of
' Supposing on the calculation of the Nol sugar
awria,s 4ttt
a quarter of malt was equal to 200 pounds of
sugar was enrree, the calculations of the Excise Commis-
sioners at 50s. 4d. was equivalent to the price of malt at 90s.

per quarter, but until malt was at 40s , sugar could -
not be brought into competition with it. If that was
so, it disposed of the measure as a remedy for the present
distress, because at the present prices sugar could not be brought
into competition with malt and barley at the present time.
The Noble Earl had adopted, in point of fact, the principle of
the sliding scale. He (Lord Stanley) was surprised to hear it.
He said that he would admit sugar practically, but that he
would admit it just in proportion to the rising or the falling of
the price of corn, and then passing over the operation of the
sliding scale, in other respects, he came forward and told them
that they must adopt the measure, for the purpose of avoiding
the uncertainty in the prices of colonial produce. That un-
certainty being, according to the Noble Earl, dependent on the
fluctuating prices, in production of the article itself. He
would not then enter into that calculation, because it was not
a matter of discussion for that House ; it was a matter of dis-
cussion for a Committee, where it could be examined and
tested and sifted, and if her Majesty's Ministers were correct
in their statement, he was sure that there would be no indis-
position on the part of those who advocated the principle of
protection for the country, and adopted the measure without
looking whether the result upon the manufacturing interest, or
the benefit of the colonies were likely to be derived from it was
better calculated. He wished to call the attention of the
House to the manner in which the Noble Earl thought
the colonies likely to be benefited be this measure. If the
colonies were to be benefited by this measure, the greatest
benefit to them must be the greatest rise in the price of sugar;
but if a rise took place in the price of sugar—unless a large
and material rise—took place in the duty on other sugars, it
was impossible that the colonial produce could come into con-
sumption at all. The Noble Earl said that a very large in-
crease in the consumption of this country must benefit the
West Indies very much. But if any increase in the consump-
tion of sugar in this country would benefit the West Indian in-
terest, while the duties were low, and the duties on other pro-
duce remaining fixed, what hope was there of the slave-grown
produce being diminished? On the contrary, he believed, that
any increase in the consumption of sugar in this country, would
increase the consumption of slave-grown sugar also; and if the
price of the sugar rose, while the duty of the slave-grown sugar
still remained fixed, the colonial produce could not come into
competition with it. In the course of the year 1844, the con-
sumption of sugar in this country was 206,000 tons.
In 1845, the consumption was 240,000 tons of
Briti h sugar, and 3,867 tons of foreign ; making
altogether 244,000 tons, as the consumption of the year 1845.
Supposing that the consumption of the last month of tt.e year
1846 was a fair average for the remainder of the year, the total
consumption of sugar would have risen in 1846 from 244,000
tons to 266,000 tons. Was that for the advantage of the
colonial grower? The result was, that, of that amount, 244,000
tons in the first year-240,000 tons British and 3,867 tons
foreign ; and in the second year, 266,000 tons, the produce of
British possessions, that the foreign slave grown sugar increased
from 3,867 tons to 28,196 tons.—( Hear, hear,) Unless he
was wrongly informed, that increase was going on at the pre-
sent moment—for, during the first, six weeks of this year—
where there were 27,000 tons of sugar introduced against
13,000 tons of the same period last year—there had been an
increase of 1,500 tons of British sugar as compared with last
year, whilst there has been an increase of 9,772 tons of foreign
slave-grown sugar. He stated as this, the result of one of their
late measures. That increase in the consumption of slave-
grown sugar being the result of the opening of the ports to
sugar which had already taken place; but the stimu:us they
had given to the slave trade had not had time to work. It was
the surplus of former production which had now come in, and
it came in under a duty of 21s. against a duty of 14s. Let
them take the state of things three years hence—the year 1850.
The increased market for foreign slave-grown sugar would
then be in operation. They would have assisted cultivation,
extended the importation of slaves, and increased the produc-
tion—and that increased production would come in com-
petition with that of colonial growth. In 1850 they would
have an additional seven shillings per quarter in favour
of the foreign slave-grown sugar, and could it be doubted that
it would have the effect of increasing the consumption of slave-
grown sugar in this country? if it had any effect at all it
would be to increase the consumption of slave-grown suear,
and the benefit would not go to the colonies but to the pro-
ducers in the Havannah and the Brazils. The Noble Earl
had referred to the case of the distilleries, and had told his
Noble Friend that when malt was at 60s. per quarter, it would
require sugar to be at 365. in order to render it possible to
make it come in competition. In the first place, that de-
pended altogether upon the question not only of the quality of
the spirit which was to be forced from the sugar—a question
which was altogether omitted from the consideration of her
Majesty's Government -- but also on the amount to be extracted
from one quarter of the malt. When the Noble Earl said
that 365. must be the price at which sugar must be in the market
to be introduced into this country, and at that price it further
appeared that out of the 361. a drawback of 124. 10d.
was to be received by the importer on the con-
version of the sugar into spirit, it was to be
received back in the shape of a dsawback—the most objection-
able of all modes of receiving it—which covered nearly the
whole amount of duty. It was a subject which did deserve
the consideration of a Committee, and it was most desirable
that the House should be satisfied of the prospect of a large
importation of sugar. The Noble Earl had quite forgotten
until then, to inquire whether the duty on sugar was as low as
it was at the present time, and now it was about to be still
lower than ever it had been. When the Noble Earl said that
sugar was never as low as 355., he (Lord Stanley) begged to
remind him that in 1830, Jamaica sugar was brought into this
market and sold for 435., paying a duty of 245., and a very
short time ago. Havannah sugar which the Commissioners of
Excise declared to be 3 per cent. better than the ordinary run
of foreign sugar, was brought into this country at 21s. minus
the duty, so that a drawback of 12s. 10d. made it consumable
value about 225. 2d., so that even if the price of Jamaica
sugar, which was 19s. minus the duty, were raised 2s.
higher than it was in 1835, the price of sugar would he 22s 10.,
instead of 365., as *timed by the Noble Earl. He was not pro-
posing to their Lordships to reject tkis RM. If it were a tem-
porary measure, and he could see in it a prospect of relief, be
would nay, " Adopt it at once, and make no inquiry," but if
they were asked and invited to take this measure avowedly in
the course of free trade, and as one cf the measures in the
course of free trade policy to which they must come, and
through which they must adopt measures which would lead
still farther,. because it was impossible to continue any restric-
tion upon trade—if they were invited to take this course, which
would have a permanent effect upon their commercial policy,
he would say—do not take this step blindfold ; do not take it
upon the statement of the President of the Board of Trade.
All he asked was, that the House should examine into it, by
the evidence of competent witnesses, It ho would to the best of
their judgment show—not for present purposes, but ultimately
and permanently—the effect of the measure upon the interest
of the sugar cultivation in the West Indian colonies, and upon
the slave grown and produce of Cuba. He asked that they
should adopt measures which would satisfy their own minds
as to the effects which would be produced by this Bill, and
then vote for it—if they ultimately decided upon voting for it
as a permanent measure—with their eyes open. That was all
he proposed, all he asked from their Lordships, that they should
legislate on this important question with satisfaction to the
public and with satisfaction to themselves; that they should
examine not only the papers produced by the officers of the
excise, however credible and worthy they might be, but that
they should inquire from other sources to satisfy themselvesthat
they were not doing mischief where it was their earnest desire to
do good, and that they were not injuring the cultivation of the
colonies under the plea of relieving a temporary distress,
which the measure, as lie was convinced, would net do. lie li
asked that they should not do mischief upon the plea of grant-
ing a boon to the colonies, which the Bill would not do, and it
was upon these grounds, and not professing any opposition or
hostility to the measure, but merely with a desire to be satisfied,
that he invited their Lordships to refer this Bill, not to a
Committee of the whole Haus?, but to a Select Committee,
where the facts might be investigated carefully, stated with a
tolerab:e certainty, and where a deliberate Judgment could be
come to as to the probable effect of the measure.—( The No-
ble Lord sat down amidst loud cheers, but rose again immedi-
ately, and moved that the Bill be referred to a Select
Committee. )
Earl GREY said that he could not help thinkirg, from the
speech of his Noble Friend who had just sat down, that he
(Lord Stanley) had a very had cause indeed; because he knew
so well his Noble Friend's ingenuity, that whenever he saw
him during the greater part of his speech altogether leaving
the great question before the House, and entertainieg their
Lordships with very ingenious and acute arguments upon
points which had nothing to do with the real merits of the mea-
sure, he felt very certain indeed that his Noble Friend had a
consciousness in his mind that the cause which he was defending
was a bad and a rot ten one. Their Lordships would recollect
the course of his Noble Friend's speech, and they would per-
ceive how completely, in the greater part of it, he had avoided
the real merits of this case. He had entered upon an argument
at some length, and read a passage from her Majesty's speech
at the opening of the session, for the purpose of proving that in
that speech this measure was introduced to Parliament as a
measure intended to relieve a temporary distress, and, there-
fore, not to be a permanent one. On that point he had only
to say, that whatever might be the construction which the words
were capable of bearing, the intention which the passage of the
speech conveyed was well known ; because some explanat'ori on
the point was sought by his Noble Friend .on the first night of
the session, and it would be in the recollection of their Lord-
ships who were present at the time, that it was stated distinctly
that this measure, with respect to the introduction of sugar in
breweries and distilleries was intended to be a permanent one.
His Noble Friend had commented at some length on this very
subject, and had objected to that course. He, therefore, ad-
mitted his Noble Friend's view of the Royal speech so far,
and what was the result ? merely that her Majesty's Ministers
in the wording of the Queen's speech, had not shown them-
selves very skilful im composition - (Loud laughter.) That
was the whole result of the long and elaborate argument of his
Noble Friend. His Noble Friend had also endeavoured to
alarm the House, with regard to the measure itself, and had
objected to the dangerous policy to be pursued in the present
instance, and referred to the pledge given by the Government
upon this Bill in the other House. The Chancellor of the
Exchequer, in the other House, had stated that it was im-
possible, at the then late period of the session, to enter fully
upon the consideration of this complicated question, and pro-
mised to place sugar upon an equality with corn in distilleries,
so as to benefit the British colonies. The pledge given by the.
Government had not bound the House, but it had bound the
Government. When on the other ride of the House, they had
given it out as their conviction that duties should only be im-
posed as with a view to increasing the reveaue, and not
to turn industry and capital from their natural sources.
But his Noble Friend said that the appointment of this Cem.
rnittee was getting themselves into the position of the fine
edge of the wedge. Did that not mean that they had not
understood the subject. But, further, he thought that he did
hear semething of the hostile intentions of the Committee. He
the more believed that he was right in this opinion, because he
had hear his Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack say,
" Oh that gives us a clue to what will be, and, therefore, I pre-
sume this Select Committee is a convenient instrument for
rejecting the measure to which we are asking you to assent."
But what were the grounds on which the Committee was asked ?
What were the legitimate grounds of this inquiry? What
were the principle which they believed ? They considered
that the sugar of their colonies ought to come into consumption
subject to no impositions save what the safe!), of the country
required. If required for distillation or brewing, they ought so
to arrange it that no more bias would be left on the minds of
distillers or brewers than in the case of there being no tax
levied at all. If their object was to raise a revenue, then they '
should so impose a tax that they would not in any degree give
a greater bias than if no tax had been levied at all. They did
not require a Committee to ascertain if this was a good
principle or a bad one. He maintained that the i rinciple was
carried out. His Noble Friend made as curious a confusion
between malt and raw grain as he had between sugar and
molasses, and he had got far beyond his (Lord Grey's) depth,
although he had tried to follow him. The reason he believed
he could not follow him was because that there was some
confusion in his own mind, but if he followed his Noble
Friend's argument it would resolve itself into simply this—
would it answer the purpose of the brewer or distiller to use
sugar or not ? That was a question with which they had
nothing to do. That was a question for the manufacturer to
determine. All they had to do was to take care that the ,
revenue was so conducted that the manufacturer should not
be injured, at the same time that the public would be bene-
fited. This measure would be of the greatest importance
as giving a security in a spare season, by pre-
venting the use of malt in distilling, while it
prevented sugar falling to ruinously low prices. The tendency
?f the measure would be to give an equalisation of prices.
they knew that the smallest quantity of sugar that was
capable of yielding an equal amount of spirit with a quarter of I ,
malt, was 180 lbs. The malt paid a duty of lf. Is. Bd., while