The Sun.
London, England, 1823-06-26 00:00:00

elation that they might all of them 'be perfectly well per-'
formed iii England : and therefore he argued there was no
more to be done but at once to rule Ireland directly from Lon-
-don. Ile l(Mr. (3oulburn) differed entirely in opinion from
the LIOn. Gentleman, and thought his proposition a fatal one
to the interests both of Ireland and of this country. He saw
ho point of recommendation about the motion beyond a possi-
bility of saving; and he had been obliged already more than
once to tell the lion. Gentleman that economy was not the
only business of a Government. Was it an argument to be
,listened to, that because Ireland cost England 400,0001: a-year,
that she shOuld therefore be left to have a King of her own,
anttaa manage her.affitirs herself? This wait the argument of
' the BiOnourable member (Mr. llama); 'but he (Mr. Goulburn)
trustful the house would concur with hint and other wise
and great men, that the question was not what could be saved
by the abolition of a particular office, but what was the
mode in which Ireland could . be governed Most efficiently,
cliff with the most of regard and conciliation to the feelings
of the people. The hon. Gent. had, as he was accustomed to
46.- made short work of the duties of the Irish Meerut-tient ;
one thing might be done one way—another thing might be done
another way-4 third thing Deed ,not be done Wall, and so on
, through the catalogue ;' but lie trusted to convince the House be-
fore he let down, that the mist important of the duties attach-
ing te the Office of Lard Lieutenant had not beete noticed by
the honeGerrt. at all. The hon. Gent. had not considered the
effect of withdrawing the executive government from a country
where its elmost daily Intervention was required, .either to re-
. piees tumult, or to ameliorate the condition of the people. Ile
. heti entirely omitted, in his deteil of the Lord Lieutenant's du-
ties, that most important one, the superintendence of the dispen-
sation'ofjustice, and of criminal justice more especially. He
had told the 'house that the Lord Lieutenant's only bueiness ley
in the signing of warrants, and had never supposed the necessi.
ty of any consideration as Ai the matter Which those warrants
eonteined; As regarded a country like Ireland, where criminal
eoevietions were unfortunately so nnmerous, it would be.
linpossible for the superintendence of executive jitetice to be
carried- on et. a ..distanee. In the course of the last year no
lets than 4th) capital cases had been referred upon petition, to
*the Lord Lieutetinnt. ,Ilow could those petitions be transmit-
teal to London tier consideration ? By granting a respite in each
case of ten days, perhaps, the Honourable Member for Aber-
. item would say, and so allowing time for an answer to coniefrom
.england t but surely the House would not be so dead to all feel-
. ings at' humanity, so forgetful of every principle of the policy of
executive jostice,aa to entertain, even in nrgiiment, such a prop°.
:Alden-nit. a moment. There were others reasons, however, and
forcible ones, fur continuing the Government of Ireland in its
present form. The people were pleased, their feelinge were
gratified, by the residence of an emblem of authority among
'therm Ile (Mr. Goulburr) was convinced, that if every vestige
of independent Government was removed, and the business of
Ireland transacted in London, there would be a universal, feel-
ing excited through that country that the interests and the
wishes of the people were neglected. The loss, too, of what-
ever patronage the Lord-Lieutenant's presence might afford,
was a matter which, if of small actual importance, would be
galling to the feelings of the Irish, and those feelings it was an
object in every way to soothe. But supposing, the Lord-Lieu.
tenant to be removed, there were two modes in which the Go-
Vertiment of the country might be carried on.--:the one, by mak-
ing a separate establishment in England for the particular pur-
pole ; and the other, by keeping an officer resident in Ireland,
not nominally a Lnrd-Lieutenant, but having, to most intents
and purposee, the 'powers and authorities of one. The hon.
Member for Aberdeen wished to have the business done in
England, and to vest all the duties of the Irish Government in
"thelutods of the Secretary of State. In fact,' the Hon. Mem-
lief thought those duties so light and trivial, that they might
be'added as a kind of makeweight to threw of an office already
existing. But it could hardly be necessary for him (Mr. Goal.
hurt;) to demonstrate the impossibility of much an arrangement.
—lf the 'millets 'of governing Ireland was to be transacted in'
thin country, it would be absolutely necessary to appoint
Another Secretary of State, who should give his undivided at-
tendee to the affairs of that kingdom ; and how such an este-
blieinnent should be much cheaper than a hordeLieutennney,
lie did met, he must own, very exactly see, unless it could
be shewn that it was less expensive to carry business to a dis-
tance, than to settle it upon the spot where it actually arose.--
AOd was this all the expence which would be conseeuent upon
the adoption 'of the llon..Member of Aberdeen's petition's By'
no means. The Hon. Member objected to the existence of one
Lord Lieutenant, but he had no objection, it seemed, to the
existence of thirty-two and his proposition indeed was to dee
pose the present 'ion? Lieutenant, creating at the same time
thirty-two other Lord Lieutenants (one in each county), each
of these 'officers being furnished with powers no whit inferior to
those with which the single existing Lord Lieutenant was In.
vetted ; for the Hon. Member talked of appointing Lord Lieu-
tenants of counties as in Scotland and England ; but he quickly
perceived that the ditforent condition of Ireland front those
countries would not allow him to stop there; and he was com-
pelled therefore to go .on; giving these officers military nutho.
rity over the troops ne their respective comities, and in fact en-
abling them to discharge, except as regarded the superintend.
emus of.executive justice, the most important duties belonging
to the Lind Lieutenant of Ireland himself. The hon. Member
however had other objects besides a mere saving connected with
his-proposition. He wished to put an end, or a check at least,
to the progress olfaction ; and he looked at the residency of Ire.
land as a sort of point round which it was apt to collect itself.
Bat did the hon. Gent.. then mean to have no officer resident in
Ireland ? Upon whom was the Secretary of State in England to
rely? Prom whence was that officer to derive his informetion
MIA) particidar, or even as to passing matters ? Wile lie to
trust to chance intelligence from persons of whose character lie
knew nothing ? He (Mr. (limlburn) wished to know how the
enumunication was to' be managed and kepi up? The men-
tion of Scotland was not witch in favour of the argitment of
thb Honourable Gentleman. Theinconvenienees arising from
• time to time from the wanrof a local executive there, had been
more or lase adtnitted ; but in any case there was enough to
prevent any desire of imitating the example set them by the in-
stitutions of that country. lie knew that there was a sug-
gestion put forivard by some, for establiShing a resident officer
in Ireland, instead of the Lord Lieutenant and hie Court. The
question then would be, If this new officer were to have as
much power linlged in his handy as the Lord Lieutenant, or
less ? if the powers were equal, there could be nothing im-
portant io the alteration ; it the officer were to have inferior
rank and powers to his Lordship, it was much to be feared that
his authority would be insufficient tbt the duties of his office.
The lion. Gentlemen had asserted, that the offices in Ireland
were chiefly, tilleel with Protestants ; he had offered the Stamp
Depertment as an instance, allegiug that there were two ea-
. tlielies employed in it. Now, to his certain knowledge,
• there were for the County of Galway alone, three Ca-
tholic Distribntors of Stamps. He did not deny that the
offices were chiefly filled by Protestants, and it must be
so as long as the greater part of the Property belonged to
the Protestation Besides, what particular benefit could
the honourable Member hope for front employing Cathollee in-
stead Of Pretegtant? lie could assert, upon the best authority,
that'neither the present Lord Lieutenant, nor either of hie
two last ;predecessors, ever made any inquiry ati to the religion
of persons appointed to fill the offices : the only ground of' re-
commendation Intel been'the fitness of the parties. The die.,
proportion of Catholics and Protestants was no evidence of the
pitetiality of thq Irish Governmeot. Ile would admit theta
-few thousands a-year might be saved by abolishing the Vice-
Itegal Government; but would it be desirable; in the present
sittrAiiors of Ireland, to do away with a local Executive at this
17 cry time so anxiously engaged in directing the civil and mili-
tia), departments; of that country, in order to restore its tran-
quality ? Above nil the topics in the speech of tile Hon. Gen-
ttereisn., !timelier, he objected to thaproposition of examining
int,rthe subject by means of a Commission; Upon what a foot-
ing wtfuld the Goverrunent of that country, even now not too
powerful for the exigency; be placed on the'artivid of Commis-
storierieto examine Into the functions of the Executive Officers,
tread .to rneke Inquiries among those who were subordinate into
,tti:4 manner of discharging those *functions ? It was plain that
the Government must s. into in its cone:Ate:nee, and that its au-
.tberit y would berweakeucd in the same proportion. If the sub-.
act demanded inquiry, he the House undertake the task. After
recapitulating his previous arguments, he concluded by oppo.
•sia4 the motion.
fisr H. PA RN ELL said, that after all the consideration which
-ballad given to thie subject foe a length of time past, be had.
been driven to the conclusion, that it would be for the benefitof
Ireland if the Motion of his lionouvablo Wend should be
carried.. If the Comititution of England: were to he imparted
to Ireland, the toed executive woUldbe rather a hindrance to
die efficacy of it than otherwise. his reason for thinking so was,
that, the Lord Lieutenants, generally speaking, soon after enter-
ing upon the Government, became totally separated from the
-views of the English Government. They were surrounded by
Mena or partizans of some kind or other, and it scarcely ever
otiappened that their conduct was not more or less, in the end,
qpubject to the bias (done party. He did not see any objection
to'sboliehing.the office on practical groilnds. Most of the Wee-
dye biesitterss was done in this country. All the business rehit-
, in co the artily Weis done here—all the business .of the Ex.
e dimple. Was now -done here. it to the reffitirs of internal.go-
vernment; they would be much, more. effectively administered
under a Secretary of State; .aided by county Lord Lieutenants.
If they would look into-the d 'patches orthe Marqu Is Wellesley,
(they would . see ,his Lordship generally communicating n'ith
a chief of. police, or a Colonel of troops, and sometimes
the* was the signature of a Magistrate who- was. scarcely
known to hi., own county.; there weseseldoin or ever any
one • or higher rank, than the labouring police—he believed
he , might say that there was no instance of any person
of dignificel,station being concerned in tha .eorreepondenee.
• „-ells knew that watt), difficulties might be set up in opposie

tion to *fiat he 'had advanced. It Voultllie asked What
were to do in exigent cases where an immediate appeal to the.
Executive might be necessary,: such as in capital convictions,
where the Government might incline to remit the chief.penalty.
But it was to be considered that there were twilve Judges in
Ireland as well as here, and surely there could be no difficulty
between their exertions and those of the Lords Lieutenant to
provide for cases of that nature as well as was done at preient.
The feeling of the people of Ireland would, without doubt, be
offered as another objection. For his own part, he believed
that the greater part of the people of Ireland were totally in-
difkrent to any such question ; or, if they felt it at all, it was
with a desire to see the local Executive abolished. The visit
of the King produced more lively and agreeable Sensations than
the longest Lieutenancy had ever produced. He considered
that the vice-regal office was quite in the way of the proper in-
fluence of the Royal Authority. It would be for the advantage
of Ireland, and for the influence of Government in that coun-
try, if a more direct communication were opened between them
than the Castle at present afforded. There might be some feel.
ing of opposition among the people of 'Dublin, but their only
.reason could be the expenditure of a very small sum of money
among them, which would no longer be expected. They would
consider, however, that Dublin was growing in commercial en-
terprise ; the trade was 1,000,000/. a year more in 1822 than
upon the average of five years before the Union. The crowds
of respectable young men who flocked to the University, and
the passage of travellers going into Ireland, would more than
compensate them for the absence of a Court, the head of which
usually lived in retirement, and with close economy. Ile would
vote for the motion.

Mr. D. BROWNE opposed the motion, and felt convinced
that the very mention of it in Dublin would raise a sort of re-
bellion.
Mr. PEEL said, that as he had filled one of the offices which
the Honourable Gentleman proposed to abolish, and now fill-
ed that upon which is was proposed to charge the duties, he
thought he had some claim upon the attention of the Haase.
The question which they had to consider was, whether or no
they thought it advisable, in the present circumstances of Ire-
land, to abolish the local executive government. The whole
merit of the proposition lay in the advice of the Hon. Member to
put Ireland upon the sante felting of Government as Wales, or
any other subordinate kingdom or provinee' which had been in-
corporated with the British empire. lie conceived that Ireland
was by no means in i fit state for effecting that change. It was
not a question of expence, hut of expediency and policy; and a
few thousands of pounds could not weigh at all in the considera-
tion of it. He thought that a local executive was an essential and
necessary check upon a country so remote, which was an ancient
kingdom, and till within the last 20 years had a separate legis-
lature. On the other hand, what with the growingopulation
and commerce of this kingdom, the duties of the Home office
were now quite as much as one man could faithfully execute.
The House would consider, that in the exercise of that great
prerogative of mercy, it was the duty of the Home Secretary to
communicate personally with the Judges upon each particular
case; to try each case over again, in tact. This was only one
branch of the duties of that office, which, as he had observed,
were quite enough for any one man. Now, if the Irish affairs
were to be turned over to the same hands, as the labour would,
then be too much, was there no danger that between the inte-
rests of Wales, and Scotland, and Ireland, some of them might
be neglected, and was it not very likely to happen to the inte-
rests of that country which was most remote from immediate
observation ? To prove to the House what would be the pro.
hable augmentation of • business in the Home Office by acced-
ing to the motion, he would only mention, that in the past
year there were in Ireland 11,312 criminal convictions; out of
those, there were applications for mercy in 2,400 cases, out of '
which, 400 capital sentences were set aside. If a separate
Secretary of State should be appointed for Ireland, the incon-
venience of his abience from that Ireland would be highly injua
riot's, and yet it could not be avoided, for he must sit in Parlia-
ment.—(Mr. Hume said, "So he does now.")—Yes, he did so
now; but now there was a Lord-Lieutenant in Dublin, whose
presence effectually prevented the danger which might arise from
the neglect of subordinate agents. The lion. Gentleman had
said that the appointment of a Secretary of State instead of the
Lord-Lieutenant would remove hint from the influence of
party, and all the prejudices which party engenders, because he
would reside, of necessity, in England. If this reasoning were
correct, it would follow that the Secretary of State of Eng-
land could discharge his duty better by remaining in Dublin,
or perhaps at Holyhead, where he would not be assailed by
El-nth:et or Irish party prejudices, unless some gentleman
should think he was in danger from those of Wales. The
Honourable Gentleman had urged, too, as a reason why the
office of LoriMieutenant should be abolished, that lie had lost
all that patronage which wits of real importance to the interests
of the people still remained in the hands of that functionary—
that of the church and of the law ; and he would ask how it was
possible that this patronage could be usefully or wisely excr-
etsed without local knowledge of the country was possessed by
the person to whom it was intrusted. The Right Hon. Oen.
tlemen proceeded to expatiate upon the inconveniences which.
would attend the measure proposed by the motion before. the
House. He requested Gentlemen to conelder-:erecollecting as
well the rebellion of 1798 and the .disturbances of 1803, as the
existing state of that country—whether it would be wise to dis-
pence with the advantages of a local government, and whether
tt was possible that a sufficient vigilance could be exerted over
the affairs of Ireland without the immediate authority of a su-
perior direction. If these were conceded to him, then the house
must agree that it would not be wise to weaken in any measure'
that local government ; anti he would ask any. ono acquainted
with Ireland, whether the arrivaleif a commission at Dublin
would not be regarded as they superseding of the Lord Lieute-
nant. He did not stay to examine if the people were wise, or
it they were philosophers, but he knew that this would be the
effect. of the measure. It were much better that the Lord Lieu-
tenant should be removed at once ; he would rather that the
Government of Ireland should at once be committed to a Secre-
tary of State, who was not suspected, than that it should re-
Main in the hands of a Lord Lieutenant, the expediency of the
duration of whose office was thus to he made a matter of doubt.
He hiul the greatest doubts of ,the expediency of the proposed
measure • but, laying them aside on the present occasion, he
thought he had said enoueli to show the House, that in the pre-
sent circumstances of Ireland nothing could have a more sus.
chievous effect upon the country at large than disturbing the
local government. . '
Mr. AIIERCROMBV thought, that as the proptisition be.
fore the House was, whether an inquiry should be made into
the beat mode of governing Ireland, and as there was quite
enough of suspicion about the present Goiernment to justify
such an inqpiry, the subject deserved, at least, a fair and
im-
{p,artial consideration by Parliament. Ile thought his lion.
Friend (Mr. Hume) had been unfairly dealt with : he had men,
tioned the subject of expellee butonly as a minor part of the case,
and not that point upon which it was mainly tardy. It should not
be taut that this question was to be disposed of upon grounds of
economy, but upon the broad grounds of wisdom and policy.
He was willing to admit that upon abstract principles Ireland
was entitled to a local Government ; but the question to be do.
cided was, whether the experience of late yeara, and the change
`of circumstances, had not now rendered the alteration which was
proposed expedient. He would admit, too, that it was fit the
person intrusted with, the Government of Ireland should be
possessed of local information e but this argument was not
conclusive. The rulvantage of having the Minister for Ireland
identified with the Cabinet of England, and being ready to
answer in his place in Parliament to all that might arise, was
obvious, and would afford a better chance of security to the
people of Ireland by the scrutiny which the subject would
then undergo. How the matter wasto be carried into exe-
cution, would be a matter of detail which must be afterwards
considered. He had hoped to have heard from the Right
Honourable Gentleman, who, in his double capieity of Mi-
nister for England and for IMAM', was well qualified to
afford information upon this topic, sonic better reasons than
those which he had advanced against the 'resolution; but
with the exception of this single objection • respecting the
administration of justice in criminal 'cases, his doubts had
been confirmed, and even that might, he thought, be re-
moved. The object of appointing a Committee. would not
be to proceed invidiously ; it was only to lay before the
House, in the best Manner possible,' information upon a sub-
ject. which involved, perhaps, the best interests of Ireland. No
offence could be meant to, or could he taken by the Lord.
Lieutenant by any measure adopted by that House, in which, it`
it were polled, his Lordehip's Friends would be found to have
a large majority. • Ilis opinion had been strengthened by what
he had heard during the discussion; he thought the public was
much indebted to his Hon. Friend (Mr., Hume) for having
bronght this subject bef4e the attention of Parliament; and
he believed that the measure he had suggested, whatever might
belts fate now, and however it might be opposed, must eventu-
ally be adopted.
Sir J. NEWPORT could not concur in the resolution. lie
thought nothing could be moro'injurious to the interests of
Ireland, or more irritatheg to the feelings of the people, than
the proposal before the. House. .If lie were in,the situation of
the Lord Lieutenant, and a Comtnittee should be appointed to
inquire into the necessity of the existence of his office, he should
not feel warranted in holding it one hour longer : but he spoke
only from his feelings, and different people had different feel-
ings. 'When Gentlemen talked of the danger to which Ireland
was exposed, and reasoned front that in favour of the resolution,
he would refer them to a period 'of danger during a very wise
adminiatration—that of Queen Elizabeth ; and he reminded
them how different a policy was then adopted. When revolt
and rebellion disturbed Ireland, that Queen did not remove
the Lord Deputy, but sent a Lord President to the disturbed
provinces, to aid in restoring them to tranquillity: she caused
the seat of government to approximate as nearly as possible to
the disorders, and where mischief was, thither she sent the re-
medy. lie had spent a long life, and during a large portion of

•
that life list'. assisted in -t1 discus4ons of Parliament; in the
course a nature he should probably soon take his departure,
but he was glad to have this opportunity of stating his firm
conviction, the result' of his experience, that there could be no
measure by which the feelings of the people of Ireland were
more likely to be exasperated than that of the removal of the
seat of Government. They would look upon it as the last
scene of their degradation ; they would think that the expects..
dons which had been held out to them at the Union were all
destroyed.—(Hear, hear !)—The evils of non-residence would
Kincreased ; , the, nobility, many of whom, he could name if it
Were necessary, and who remained in that country at present,
would quit it as soon as the C'ourt should be removed. He had
never felt a more decidtsl conviction than he did in giving a
negative to the motion beforathe Heim.
Mr. CANNING said, that the opinion which he had
formed upon this subject before the debate had Commenced was
fortified•by what he had since beard. Although the testimony
was conflicting upon the subject, the conclusion from general
principles was so obvious that he thought it could not be mis-
taken. Let the House suppose that a few years had passed
since this measure of removing the Government from Ireland
had been adopted. The, Secretary of State would of necessity
be ignorant of all those local peculiarities which under the pre-
sent system were so accurately detailed. He could not con-
ceive any thing more extraordinary than that 'the House
should consent to strike away all those advantages which
were derived from the presence of Ministers who had served
an apprenticeship to the Irish Government. But the motion
before the House afforded in itself the best proof of the
value of local information : for it was proposed to send
a commission to Ireland to collect that local information
before the House should, decide. It was not ventured even
to • lay the foundation for that abstinent form of Govern-
ment which was to. be recommended until such information
should be obtained. If this, then, were to go on, commissions
must of necessity be appointed as often as it was necessary
to procure information ; and instead of collecting it without
shock or confusion, the House must send Commissions, each
with power equal to that of' a Ford Lieutenant, to collect and
bring home particulars which they were certain must be pro-
cured during a perturbed state of the public mind. That in-
formation was best gathered and laid by for future use, during
the ordinary current of events, and not by fits and snatches, as
often as separate events required separate inquiries. But the
chief objection to the measure was, that its effect would inevi-
tably be, that if the executive government were removed; the
practical power would be thrown into the hands of parties.
Two generations of English Ministers, however short, would
not have passed before the person.holding the office of Secre-
tary of State would find himself obliged to pin his faith upon
some individual or some connexion in Ireland ; and all those
evil consequences must ensue, to correct which the power of
England had been exerted. The table of the House would
be covered with petitions, complaining that, owing to the
distance of the- executive Government, no Minister, however
well-intentioned, could possess sufficient information for
the due administration of justice. He could not lay out of the
question, that in the present temper and condition, of Ireland,
the loss of the sum of 100,0001. a-year, and all thatgrew out of
the expenditure of the Court would be a conaiderableevil to the
people of that country, whether the chasm which it 'would make
in their commerce, or the effect it might have upon their feel-
ings were regarded. He could not but think this would be
breaking the last link which bound the two coontries together,
and adding to sore feelings and distress at a moment when feel-
ings were sufficiently irritated and distress sufficiently severe.—
On these grounds he not only decided against any change in the
Government of Ireland, but against any inquiry which should
seem to imply that Parlinmentmediated such a cliange—a mea-
sure than which lie thought nothing could be less advisable, or,
in the present state of that country, more mischievous.
After a few words froth Mr. DAWSON and Mr. It. MARTIN
against the motion, _ _

-Mr. C. H. HUTCHINSON regretted that he could not
concur in the motion of his Hon. Friend. He was convinced
that very great mischief would be occasioned if, at this moment,
there appeared any disposition on the part of Parliament to re-
move the Marquis Wellesley from the. Government of Ireland ;
and were the proposition now before the House to be carried,
he had no doubt that it would give rise to an idea that Par..
liament slid entertain such a feeling. If it were to go abroad
that Government did not intend to support the coarse of
policy marked out by that 'Noble Person, very unfortunate
consequences would inevitably be the result. Although some
circumstanees had occurred in the course of the Noble Mar-
quis's administration, which were calculated to prod-ace
feelings of pain, still he thought it was wise and proper to sup-
port him, until bis system of policy was clearly and plainly de-
veloped. His should,' therefore, give the motion a -negative,
lest the motives of the House should be misconceived if they
came to an opposite conclusion. It might be right to appoint
such ,a commission as his Hon. Friend moved for, but the
imment, in his opinion, was not a proper moment for such a
.proceeding.; When his lion. Friend spoke of the enormous
expenee meanest by the military force, and by the number of
barracks in Ireland, what answer did ie (Mr. Hutchinson), as
an Irishman, give to him P It was by retorting on his Hon.
Friend, ;nd on the British nation, that abominable system of
misgovernment, which had been pursued for centuries by this
country towards Ireland—a system which had converted Ireland
into one great barrack. It was true there had been, and there
was, a promse eitpenditure, at once injurious to Ireland and-
disgraceful to this country t lint the Government of England
was to-blame-for it. lie felt most deeply the miseries under
which Ireland now suffered.; and, if his voice could reach that
country, he would exhort every portion Of his countrymen to
bear their fate with
.patience, and not to let feelings of anger
hurry them to a- breach of the laws, which would only add to
their miseries.

Sir ii.i111414 opposed the motion.
.Mr. LWME .replied. In submitting this proposition to the
Hotiset he had no idea of reflecting on the government of the
,Marquis Wellesley; and if Gentlemen pleased, he.Wlll4 willing
to add to his-rnotton, that it was not meant in any degree to
refer to that Noble Person. The Chief Secretary for Ireland
andt ,
z
for me Departinent, had
the
ot,h l
in
aniiyghway,ol. anSmecv.erreetsql.is
the llti
observations, 'I hey. had con-
tended against arguments conjured up bithemselvoi but Which
he .(111r. Hume) tail never even thought of. - 'rue saving of
130,000/, a year, which would be 'effeeted if his motion were
adopted,' was nothing it compered with the extent of benefit
which would be securedin other respects. He did not propose
that the change should take place now : that was an error into
which the Gentlemen opposite had most unaccountably fallen.,
He was willing, Wit would please the House, to leave out the
words, a, commission to inquire," and to substitute " take
into its consideration.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the gallery was
nearly cleared for a division, when - •
Mr. IItIME expressed hia intention not to divide, observing,
that probably a similar motion would, ere long, emanate from
the other aide of the House.
The motion was negatived without a division.'
IRISH DIOCESAN SCHOOLS..
Sir J. NEW POE.? rose to submit to the House the motion-
of which he had given notice, relative to the accounts of Dio-
cesan and Parish Schools in Ireland, and the reports of the Com-
missioners of. Education there, with the view of more detailed
inquiry,at the commencement of the ensuing Session into, the
means of impartintr most efficaciously to the whole body of the
people, without tril,;ions distinction, its essential benefits, and
rendenng the funds available which were destined for that great
national object. His object, lie obServed, was to pledge Par.
!lament that they would. at an early period neat year, enter
into a foil-investigation of this interesting qUestion,' in order
that they
might deliberately consider what had been done
for the general education -or the people of Irefarid. Parliament
ought to exercise its inquisitorial r,pow, and to see that funds
which were left for the education of lie people, without
gard to difference of religion, were applied, thrcragh the proper H
channels, to that most important purpose. e had, at the
commencement of the Session, moved for various papers, which
threw great light on this subject. However Gentlemen might
differ on other points, he believed they all agreed on this—that
general education was the most certain mode by which the situ-
non or Ireland could be ameliorated. Diane years ago, edu-
cation WIN looked upon as the only effectual cure for
the evils by which Ireland was borne down. In 17117 the sub-
ject was deeply considered, and a plan of general educations,
woabout to be set on foot : but the death of the Duke of
Rutland prevented the project from being
carried into effect.l
In March, 1780,
a Bill was brought in, appointing Commis-
Monet% to inquire into the disposition of all revenues which had
been intended for charitable institutions. The Commissioners
discovered that in the province of Ulster, the public grants which
were voted fbi the support of the Protestant free schools had
been diverted from that object. The Commissioners under that
act of Parliament, which is continued by a subsequent act down
to Jun) MO, detected numerouS abuses of the grossest re-
tore t ley found that in many instances the money which
should have been devoted to the education of the people,
hail made its way into the pockets of private individuals. In
1796, it being discovered that persons of weight and consi-
deration had
to expire, anti
in those abuses, the act was suffered
ti no report was made to Parliament. In 11106
Magistrate's book, containing a statement
of the conduct of those
who bad abused certain charities, happened to fall into his
(Sir J. Newport's) bands, which'be immediately cornrouni-,
cated to the then Lord Lieutenant, the Duke of Bedford, and
also toot old friend of his,
who was then in office. With their
'assent and approbation he subsequently brought forward a mo-
tion for the appointment of Commissioners of Education, who
were nominated under the Act of the 46th of late King. A
number of mast useful reports emanated front those Coinmis-
sioners. In consequence of their representations, beneficial mea-
sures were adopted with respect both to Royal andprivate
lactic foundations, and they afterwards entered on the aubject of"

parodhial schools. These schools were-cadered to be founded it
the time of Henry VIII.; immediately after the Reformation.
It was then enacted that every parochial clergyman, on enter-
' ing on his benefice, should contract a solemn engagement to
keep or causeto}se kept a school for teaching the English lan-
guage. Annexe
these schools were to be various Fends, the
profits of which were to be applied to the extension of the be-
nefits of education to the people in' general. At a very early
period the anxiety of the people for those benefits was very re-
markable. Generally speaking, the legislature was too much
in a hurry, however, to reap the fruits before the soil had been
properly cultured; and he could not help expressing his wish
that before any particular tenets were endeavoured to be taught
the poor, their minds should be first properly prepared to re-
ceive and understand them. The Right Ilonourable Baronet
then alluded to the establishment of diocesan schools in Ire-
land, as projected by a statute passed' the 10th of July, 1813,
in conformity
.with the report of some Commissioners who
had been appointed to inquire into all matters connected with
this subject. To chew how little the original project had been
pursued, and to prove how necessary inquiry into the matter
was, he would refer the House to the returns of diocesan schools
lately laid before them. From the dioceses of lailaloe, Meath,
and others, and the Archbishopricks of Armagh and Tuam,
no return at all had been forwarded. These returns, however,
were, in fact, almost entirely unintelligible. In the Archbisho-
pric of Tuam, where there were 24 benefices, only 6 had schools,
and of these, three were entirely supported by the Clergy.—
In the diocese of Cloyne, 58 benefices were returned, and of
these only 20 had schools. In an account lately published, it
appeared that the value of the benefices in the diocess of Cloyne
was 40,0001. a year ; and this was confirmed by the statement
of Mr. Bates, in the first volume of his Parochial Survey. In
the diocess of Elphin there was a considerable cumber of dio-
cesan schools: but those were maintained by the London Hiber-
nian Society. There was one case, however, in which a Pro-
testant school had been kept up in a manner so disinterested
and honourable, that the House would willingly pardon him (Sir
J. Newport) if he mentioned one or two particulars. In the
parish of Archol, in, the diocess of Ferns, a return had been
made highly creditable to the clergyman of the place, Mr.
Mahon, who had built one of two school-houses at his aole and
entire expence.—( Hear !)—Efter entering into some further de-
tells connected with the management of such schools, the Right
Ilon. Bart. concluded by stating' that he thought the only proper
system of education to be pursued there, was one which, by the
exclusion of any set formula or catechism, should induce the chil-
dren of Roman Catholic and of Protestant parents indifferently to
participate in the advantages of religious instruction. The Bible
might there be put into the hands of children with such a com-
mentary as he (Sir J. Newport) had lately seen, going solely to
elucidate particular passages rquiring explanation, but which
were explained without any, view to the establishment of this or
that particular dogma or tenet. His object was, to extend to Ire-
land, in the best and mostuseful way, a system of general edu-
cation for the people. He should therefore take the liberty of
moving two Resolutions, (which were to this effect:—)
" 1. That. this House deeply impressed with the serious
responsibility imposed onlPurliament' of providing by every
proper means for the general instruction of the people, will, at
an early period of-the next Session, enter into an inquiry as to
the state of education in Ireland ; with a view of extending us
blessings to all classes, without religious distinction or prefer-
ence, and in such manner as to make available for these pur-
poses the funds that may have been provided either by private
benefactions or public bounty, by private donors or by statutory
gift ; subject to no other limitation than such as the will of the
donors, or the wisdom of Parliament, may have respectively
suggested.
" 2. That in order to facilitate such Inquiry, returns be forth.
with prepared and presented of all the diocesan schools of Ire-
land (under 53 Geo. 111. c. 101), their foundations, endow.
ments, ; also of all disbursements made out of such funds
and endowments, during the last 10 years ; and that statements
be made out by the Commissioners of Education and Charities
in Dublin. of the amount of all property recovered to the funds
of such schools, after having been misapplied or otherwise di-
verted."—( Hear )—lf wished to name any additional reason why
the appointment of this Committee of Inquiry, next Session,
would be desirable, he would say that the last Report of the
CommissionerA in question was very meagre. - 4

• Mr. GOULBURN thought it was a foolish and inexpedient
thing in general, and. particularly in the present case, for Par-
liament to enter into pledges in one Session as to what it would
do in another.' He objected also to this species or mode of Par-
liamentary interference with the management of the parochial
establiSliments. As little could he concur in the proposition of
educating Roman CAliolic and Protestant children on one and
the same system without making them sensible, as suggested by
li
the Right on. flaronet, of the distinctions between their respec-
tive creeds. While he was opposed to the motion, he was
friendly to inquiry next Session, and assured the Right Hon.
Baronet that he was very willing to give all the information on
however,these ntters
to withdraw that l )
his
eeolult
Resolutions.con
command. He did recommend

Air. S. RICE contended, that inquiry, such as was propo.
Sell by the Bight Hon. Baronet, was clearly called for ; and ex-
pressed his satisfaction at the promise of the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman (Mr. Ooulburn) to give every information on these to..
pies in his power.

Sir. J. NEWPORT, in explanation, said he willingly with-
drew his resolations: his object, which was to ascertain the
disposition of the Right lion. Gentleman upon • the subject,
being completely obtained.
Mr. PEEL having introduced a Bill about Parochial
Schools, to which the Right Bon. Baronet had alluded, begged
to say, that he hoped their condition would form one of the
principal subjects of the inquiry of next Session, in whatever
way it might be instituted.
After a few words from Mr. C. On ANT, who gave an account
of the first establishment and subsequent progress of the
Diocesan Schools, the Resolutions were withdrawn.
The Labour of Convicts' Bill was then read a third time,
anti passed.
CAPITAL PUNISH3IE'STS.
-

On the motion for repealing
the Capital Punishments Repeal
Bill,
Sir J. MACKINTOSH rose to propose an amendment.—
He observed that he had taken the earliest opportunity of ex-
pressing his objection to the amelioration of the criminal laws
lasttn et
Session,it w. as
satisfy
yrltbiame
wiensthegsavoer
OtoPosed by,the Government this Session, because he thought
the public.. The object of the amendment which he intended to
I nalidirtlital tneor gottarpelneodigigehwthoicsah
submit was not to effect a more extensive reformation of the
criminal laws than was proposed by the bill, but merely to make
the bill do what it professed to do in its preamble, namely,
to take away the capital punishment in certain cases which
were. apecified. The House was aware that many Bills had
been introduced to repeal the act of the 10th of Milian',
which
made shoplifting to the amount of ss. a capital offence Seve-
ral of those Hills had passed the House of Commons, but they
had always been thrown out in the House of Lords, except in
the last instance, in 1821, when the House of Peers amend-
ed the Bill by declaring that shoplifting, unless to the amount
of 1.5/. should not be a capital offence.. Since the passing
of.the act of 1821, the Judges had held that stealing in a
shop attached to a dwelling house to' the amount of .10s. was
a capital offence under the statute of the 12th of Anne, com-
Monly culled the stealing in a dwelling-house act. This jutil-,
cial construction completely defeated the intention of the act of
1821. • The object of his amendment, therefore, was only to
carry into effect that act. For that purpose he moved, that
after the words " privately stealing gmls or chattels in any
shop, Wfitehouse, coach-house, or stable," be added the words,
" although such shop, warehouse, coach-house, or stable, be
attached to, or detached .from a dwelling-house."
The A TTORNEV-GENER.AL felt himself hound to op-
pose the aMendment. The object of the Bill before the House
was merely to carry into effect what had been proposed by his
Hon. and Learned Friend himself—namely, to repeal the Act
of William, brit to leave that of Anne untouched. He could
5.2. e no reason why privately stealing in a shop, which formed a
material parcel of a dwelling-house, should not be considered
as great a crime as stealing in any other part of the house.
Mr. J. WILLI:N.3IS was of opinion, that the intention
of the act of 1021 would be defeated, unless his Honourable
and Learned Friend's Lmendment were carried. 1

The SOLICITOR-GAENERAL opposed the amendment.
Mr. F. No:Toll and Mr. G. Laatu suppofted the amend-
ment.

Mr. PEEL defended the principle of the Bill, and contend-
ed, that in it he was pursuing the course adopted by Sir S. Ro-
'luny in the measures which he had introduced some few. years
back. •

After a few words from Mr..- Wilberforce, Mr. Alderman
Thompson, and Mr. Martin, in support of the amendment, and
from Mr. Courtenay and Mr. Aiderman Bridges in &your of
the BM without amendment, the House divided, when there
appeared—
. For the Amendment - - . 19
Against it :15
Majority - —l6
On our return to the gallery we found the SPEAKER putting
the question—" That the Bill do pass," which was carried in
the affirmative. __ _

On the motion of Mr. PEEL, the felonies (benefit of clergy)
Bill was read a third time, and passed.
On the motion of Mr. PENL the sentence of death Bill was
read a third time.—On the question that it do pass,

Sir J. MACKINTOSH said, he had two Amendments to
propose to the Bill. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, after
some Law observations, concluded by moving an Amendment of
the Preamble, by leaving out Certain words to:suit it to the
enacting clause; and a clause to gtve the Judges the power to
pronounce the punishment of transportation or imprisonment,

in cases whare they ao not think it reetotal& that the Funisl:-
ment of death should be inflicted.
Mr. It. MARTIN complained that his Hon. and Learned
Friend had proposed as an amendment the very words of a
clause which heMr. R. Martin) had introduced in his Bill,
and which the lion. and Learned Gentleman had then opposed.
The ATTORNEY -GENERAL opposed the amendment.
After a few words from Mr. F. Iluvrox and Sir JAMES
MACINTOSH, the amendments were put, and negatived with-
out a division.—The Bill'then passed.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Two o'CLoctc.

A LIST OF THE MINORITY
Who voted for Sir Henry Parnell's Motion, "That a Com-
m
ittee be appointed to inquire into the present state of Ire-
land, before the Insurrection Act should pass."
Barrett, S. M. }fume, J. Rumbolcl, C. E.
Bennet, Hon.H.-G. Hotchinson, Hon. Robertson, A.
Bernal, Ralph C. H. Smith, J.
Bright, Henry Knight, R. - Smith, W.
Button, T. F. Kennedy, T. F. Tennyson, C.
Cavendish, lA. G. Lushington, Dr. Whitbread, S. C.
D.tvies, T. 31arjonbanks, S. Williams, Sir R.
Denman, T. Martin, J. Williams, W.
Ellis, Hon. 0. J. Milbank, M. Williams, J.
Evans, William Monck, J. B. Wood, M.
Farrand, Robert Newport, Sir J.
Fergusson, SirR.C. Nugent,, Lord
Hamilton, Lord A. Palmer-„ C. F.
Hoblionse, J. C. Pares, T.
Honeywood, AV. P. Rice, T. S.

TELLERS.
Grattan, J.
Parnell, Sir H.

MINORITY
Who voted for Sir James Mackintosh's amendment, for taking
away the Capital punishment for stealing in Shops attached
to Dwelling-houses.
.kbercromby,lln.J. Leader, W. Smith, Wm.
Bankes, Henry Martin, R. Thompson, W.
Evans, W. Mackintosh, SirJ. Wilberforce, W.
Hobhouse, J. C. Monek, J. B. Wilson, T.
Knight, R. Newport, Sir J. TDI.LEUS.
Lamb, Hon. G. Rice, T. S. Buxton, T. P.
Lennard, T. B. Robinson, Sir Geo. Williams, J.

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINUS.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Mercurii, 25° die Juni:* 1803
- •

CUNLIFFE'S DIVORCE Bills rend a third time,
LABOUR OF CONVICTS • 5 and passed.
BUILDING OF GAOLS-.-hill read a second. time, and corn.
mitted.
EQUALIZATION OF " to prevent higher Du-
ties being paid in Ireland than in England," presented, read
a first time, and to be read a second time to-morrow (this
dayi.
OYSTER FISIIEntEs PN:OTECTION—BiII considered in Com-
mittee, and reported; further consideration of Report put oti.
for three months; Bill, as amended, to be printed.
CllURCll—Hutltlersfieltl—Lords Amendments agreed to.
MESSAGE FROSt THE Loaps--That they have agreed to
Congerston (Leicester) Inclosure Bill, without amendment.
• That they do communicate a Copy of the Report from the
Select Committee appointed by their Lordships on the Ap-
pellate Jurisdiction of the House of Lords, as desired by this
House.
RECIPROCITY or DUTIES—BiII to be read a third time on
Tuesday. Bill, as amended, to be printed.

NOTICBS OF MOTIONS for THIS DAY.
I. Mr. Brougham—To refer Petition from Roman Catholics
of Ireland, on abuses in the administration of Justice in
Ireland, to'Orand Committee on Courts of Justice.
2. Mr. Grattan:—Motion respecting Pipe Water and Metal
,Main Acco4ints in the City of Dublin.
3. Colonel Palmer—Foreign Policy of this Country.

ORDERS of the DAY for THIS DAY.
1. Holyhead and Howth Harbours Bill—Third Reading.
2. Law Merchant Bill—Second Reading.'
3. Capital Crimea Defence Bill—Second Reading.
4. Post Horse Duties Bill--Committee. • -
6. East Itdia Postage on Sailors' and Soldiers' Letters Act—
Adjourned Debate.
6. Occasional Freeholders Bill—Further consideration of Re-
port.
7. Roman Catholic Qualification Bill—Further consideration
of Report.
17. Insurrections
apo(;:rnree(elldlaanrneßtiadl )01n1Bdolli)ilailBltiiloing_seolm:o:fmur:13tti0tieethre.
8. Settlement of the Poor Bill—Committee. ..
9. Building of Gaols Bill_Committee.
10. Juries (Scotland) ltill—Third Reading.
11. Lotteries Bill—Second Reading. • -
12. Exchequer Bills Bill (114.700,000)-8econd Reading.
13. Equalization of Duties Bill-,Second Reading. .. .
14. Distilleries Bill—Further consideration of Report.
16. Elective Franchise Bill—Further consideration of Report.
16: Prisons Bill—Lords' amendments to be considered.
pnrlartlididll
otlit.
13. Insolvent Debtors Act Amendment Bill—Committee.
June to be considered. •
April
Presentments Consolidation BlB—Second
22201291....
CSciUuhrnlinanulaPreeedwiapoldf—urijnall:lurg).ye
stsat.
23. Lottery Commissioners, Salaries and Allowances--Corn:
mince thereupoa.
24. Disembodied Militia Bill—Second Beading. • •

NOTICES GIVEN YESTERDAY.
Tuesday, JO/ I.
Pr. Phillimore—To amend the Laws which affect the Mar-
riages of English Roman Catholics, and the Registration
of the Births of their Children.

COLONIAL TRADE.

S 1.1 I MOT 0 24', MAY, 1823.

Sir—Having reason to believe that an immediate removal of
the alien duties on tonnage and imports now levied on British
vessels entering the ports of this country from his Majesty's pos.-
sessions in North America and the West,lndies, is generally ex -
pected, in pursuance of a late act of Congress regulating the trade
between certain of those Colonies and the United States, I em-
brace the earliest opportunity permitted by the state of the ear.
respondence on this subject with the American Government,
toinform you, and through you to inform his Majesty's Con-
suls at the out-ports, that the act of Congreas is considered to
require not only that the corresponding duties, in the large: t
sense as they affect the United States, should actually cease to
co-operate on the side of Great Britain, but also that on "orris
lawfully imported into anr.of. the open colonial ports in an
American vessel, no higher duty should be charged than the
like articles imported "from elsr.where.”
The term ekerviare being unders'oxi to comrr !bend the Bri
tish territories themselves, tt is wholly out of my power to make.,
a declaration 'on this point satisfactory to the American
vernment • and, however to be regretted, it is therefore maw-
fest that the prevailing exputation is not likely to be realized
under the pruent circurnstances.—l am, &c.
(Sigied) - STRATA)ILD CANNING,/
To his Majesty's Consul-General in the United States.

MI LANcnowy the morning of
Sunday,; the lbth inst., as sortie young men were bathing,
in the river Wear, at the Nah's End; near Durham, one of
thmi, of the name of Witair., a shoemaker, got out of his
depth and was sinkine.7; when one of hit compi.tnions, mined
Howe, went in to his assistance,- but being seized round the
waist by Wilkie, they both sunk.' Another young man, called
Irvine, en their agent rising to the surface, attempted to get
them out;but was caughOaold of by both and dragged to the
bottom. There they got disentangled, and Howe and Irvine
again appeared above water; a fourth young man, of the name
of Baker, succeedet. in dragging Irvine out, and then pro.
ceeded to Howe, but was so exhausted that he was unable
to render him any assistance, and went down with him.—
Howe never rose again, and Raker on coming to the surface
was, singular to relate, rescued by Irvine, who had in the
Mean time partly recovered, and brought to the shore in netrly
a lifeless state.—(Ediub::rgh Cogrant,June 23. )
Molt fictitior..—iii the course of last week,
certain arrangements were completed between the Town Council
and the Subscribers to the New Town Academy. The Council
have given up their claim to the three acres of ground in the
the rate, we believe, of twelve bolls of wheat and
Distillery Park, which have been feued to the Subscribers, at
money per acre. This is a considerable burden, but looking to
school were anxious to get the Excise Office and
the increasing value of property in that quarter, the sum is not
more than the growth is worth. The
_promoters of a centr_al
lower division of the North Loch, by raising teinis:moutnilins,
and a petition was sent to Government for this purpose sonic
time ago, but no answer has yet been received. its this appli.
cation may fail, we understand the idea of improving the
its surface a few
feet, and draining and levelling it, to serve as a site, is not
abandoned.—(Ediestiegh Courant, Julie 23.)