The Sun.
London, England, 1840-04-01 00:00:00

EVEN LNG- EDITION

---
16,,money deposited in all the Savings Banks in the coun-
tie.— Ordered.
The Earl of ROSE BE RY presented a petition from
Linlithgow, prayii:g for atotal and immediate repeal of the
Cern-laws. It was almost unnecessary for him to state
that he could not support the prayer of the petition in all its
extent ; be %cal favourable, however, to a modification of
those laws, and he thought it would soon be indispensible
t ) modify them, particularly with reference to the scale of
deties. He was convinced that by such a plan much might
be done for the improvement of the country without being
at all injurious to the agricultural interest.
The Marquis of WESTMINSTER presented a peti-
tion from a parish in Cheshire praying for the repeal of
the Corn and Provision Laws.
The Duke of CLEVELAND presented a petition
from Durham, praying that a stop might be put to the
0l) ium Trade. Also one very numerously and respectably
signed by persons in the county of Durham, praying fur
the total and immediate repeal of the Corn-laws. Ile
could not go that length, but had the petitioners prayed
r for a modification of the laws, and a reduction of the duty
upon corn, he would most willingly have given the peti-
t' ‘n his support. He had the good fortune to possess a
certain portion of land, and he naturally wished agr7,,,ut_
te.e to succeed, but be thought the excessive protection
g: en to agriculture was the cause of much of (tie distress
ael poverty which prevailed throughout the, country. He
kL. ow that there were many able advi,cates both is that
I E.Ase and out of it for a contint:ance of the Corn-laws;
but, in his opinion, they ought
. to be revised, and the duty
rc-4eced, fur his maxim IrAti always been " to live and let
i livc."
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY, although he bad
tot the good fortune to possess the same influence and
?ewer in the county of Durham as the Noble Duke,
eeuld not permit it to go forth that there was not a
f very cettsiderable portion of the agricultural interest
iin that county hostile to any alteration of the
"Ir 2-14ws- He wished to ask the Noble
e e7ixeount opposite whether there was any truth in
irziyit he saw stated in the journals of the day, relative to
1
0 certain meeting said to have taken place in Downing-
e!ecet. From that report it 1
appeared
ad that two hundred
erns, calling themselves delegates, h taken Downing-
.l..aeeet by surprise, and had entered to a very considerable
eft
into the question of the Corn-laws. He should
fknow in what manner that meeting was to be
, -viewed, because, at the end of the report, the Noble Vis-
-1 'VW was made to say that he had received and answered
°:il in his private, not in his official capacity.
Now he (the Marquis of Londonderry) could
Ai,/ conceive how the Noble Viscount could
`five two hundred delegates upon such a ques-
tion in his private capacity. He wished to ask the
Noble Viscount whether the report was correct, whether
ie was a true statement of his opinions, as stated by him to
the Delegates, whether it was merely the private opinions
of Lord Melbourne, or whether those of the Ministers,
reseecting the Corn-laws ; and, if so, how was the House
tee look at the discrepancies between those answers, and
'ae statements made by the Noble Lord last year?
)(to declaration made by the ;Noble Lord last year was
I vary strong. He could not say that which he had last
=ado was exactly the same, but let their Lordships look at
the statement of what passed, and ask themselves if they
oeeeld gather from it what the Noble Viscount intended to
413 respecting the Corn-laws, for it was a mystification
i 'r.ehieh was unworthy the position he held as first Minister
i of the Crown. He thought the question was one of such
1 vital importance that the first Minister of the Crown was
ballad to tell them, whether he meant to repeal, or by
changing the duty, to alter the Corn-laws, or was deter-
mined to support them as they at present stood. He,
therefore, begged to know whether the statement was cor-
!, sect, and whether the Noble Lord had spoken in his pri-
-1 vete or official capacity.
Lord MELBOURNE said he could not say whether
I the statement referred to by the Noble Marquis was cor-
Ireel or noi, as he had not head of it, and therefore could
rot vouch for he correctness"; but what he apprehended the
Noble Marquis referred to was some difference between
, wheft he had said in his private and official capacity, not
relating to the main subject, but to some opinions he had
1 etated in the course of the meeting with reference to
l; foreign trade. He certainly stated an opinion he very
'such held, that they would not by relaxing the Corn-laws
obtain a greater facility from foreign countries for the im-
portation into them of our manufactures.—( Hear, hear.)
On which a delegate stated that that declaration would
bare u great effect on the country, and wished to know
1 whezther it was his (Lord Melbourne's) private opinion, or
i tae opinion of the Government, and he answered that
eloerly. lie stated it merely as his own opinion.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY then read
an extract front the report of the interview in the
! newspaper, to the effect that Lord Melbourne said that
the total repeal at present would be most injudicious ; t i
ive, all at once was not the way to obtain concessions from
e °reign Powers." He wished to know whether that was
1 tie be one of Mr. O'Connell's instalments. He thought
i the Noble Viscount should state the determination of the
government on the subject.
. The Earl of RADNOR, who was heard with great
Al
i 'cune was understood to say that, in consequence
I .e. the lateness of the two laet seasons, there would
ae
. te famine, if the Corn-laws were not repealed. He
1 !'egged their Lordships to attend to the effect of the Corn-
, 'laws on the Poor-laws. The object of the Poor-laws was
1 lo produce a free competition of labour, but that ought to
ti Ito aceovnpanied with a free trade in food. Although
he was favourable to the Corn-laws, yet ho would
support a modification of them, if an alteration
were not made in the Poor-laws.—( Hear, hear,

s The avowed object of the Corn-laws was to keep up the
k rice of bread. That was declared to be the object when
toy were established, and it was said at that time that if
the landlords were not protected in that way they would be
rcoined. After some further observations he expressed a
'eope that their Lordships would well consider the subject,
=gad be prepared to deal with it when it came before them.
The Noble Lord then presented a number of petitions in
Iroar of the alteration from Devon, Hampshire, Chester,
Loaerk, Somerset, and other places in England and Scot-
;and. We understood him to say that the petition from
Somerset was signed by a very wealthy landowner, Sir
f Tomas Lethbridge.—( Hear.)
The Duke of RICHMOND said the great object of
the Corn-laws was that the nation should be independent
of any other country foe bread.—( Hear, hear.) On this
view of the subject he would refer his Noble Friend '
( Lord Radnor) to the speech of the President of
Hear, hear, hear.) His Noble Friend,
iltcs other agitators, stated what he assumed
to be the opinions of the agriculturists, and then argued
noon them. They put the question to the people, as one
of cheap bread, but if they told them that the question was
vhether they would have cheap bread and butter, or no
employme'ot, or would have bread at a reasonable price
And go,,d wages—( Hear, hear, bear),if the question was
put in that way to the people, they would not be so will-
-1 sign petitions.—( Hear, hear.) 'Was it the fact that
th a labouring classes were in distress? Look to the state
of the Savings Banks. In November 1838, there were
'690,138 depositors, and of these 600,000 were deposits
of 71. on the average.—( Hear, hear.) That showed to
what class they belonged.—(Hear, hear.) But in No-
vember, 1839, there was an increase of 40,000 depositors,
and the amount of the deposits was 7,',00,00CL—( Hear,
12,nr.) ad that show that the people were in distress ?
lie should like to know what were the wages in the parish
in the Noble Lord's neighbourhood, from which one
of the petitions came ? In his own neighbourhood the
wages were 12,. a-week, and when the men were on task-
work they earned 15s. a-week. If the Corn-laws were
0 repealed undoubtedly there would not be full employment,
as a great deal of land would be thrown out of cultivation.
Lei d RADNOR believed that the repeal of the Corn-
laws instead of diminishing, employment would increase it.
' It would certainly increase it in the manufacturing districts.
The' Duke of RICHMOND asked how much able-
bodied labourers got in the part of the country which the
hie ble Lord referred to ?
The Earl of RADNOR—Their usual pay is about
9.. a week.
The Duke of B UCCLE LTG H said that if they were
so well paid, he did not see what complaint-could be made
on the subject.
Tise Earl of FALMOUTH appealed to the facts of
the ca-.c, which were all on one side, to prove that the
present system had succeeded in keeping the markets more
t,teady than they hal ever been in any given number of
years previous to their adoption. He should also say that
tho Noble Lord was entirely unfounded in his views
es to :he ((Teets which a repeal of the Corn-laws would
have on the labourers of this country. If the farmers were
depressed they would not be able to employ labourers, or to
aive teem any effectual assistance.
, The Duke of RIC H MJND presented petitions from
\Ve-t Grimston and Shipley, in Susstx, against any alte-
r:eihn in the Corn-laws ; also a petition from the Board of
Guardians of a union in the county of Sussex, and another
from a place in he county of Elgin, to the same effect ;
I also a petition from a parielt in Aberd2en against the intro-
.
non nt Ministers to 0-.. e Scottish Church.
Ti,c Bills on th, table were forwarded a stage, and the
o Clock, adjourned to Thursday.

ANT.LCORN-LAW DELEGATES.

using all other means to obtain food for his perish-
ing family without effect, to have taken food for them
wherever he could find it.—( Here considerable symp-
toms of dissent were exhibited by the meeting.) lie
did not anticipate any expression of dissent from one
resting upon the highest authorities in law and in ethics.
Those gentlemen must remember that in Scotland the un-
employed labourer receives no relief f-om the poor's fur ds,
and that any man in the position he had described hid no
alternative between being accessory to the commission of
murder—to the death of fellow creatures, of a wife and
children depending upon them for subsistence, or the be-
coming a criminal in the eye of the law, though justified,
as he thought, by the great principles of morality and
religion. It was thus that the people were thrown out of
employment by the operation of the Corn-laws, and being
driven to desperation by their sufferings, some of them
became the inmates of prisons, and had the brand of
crime fixed upon them for life. He knew something of
and
the
feelings and opinions of the people ofScotland ;
though he felt convinced that the dcmaad for farther re-
forms beyond the repeal of the Corn-laws could not now
hc! stopped, yet that an immediate and total repeal of those
1 laws would greatly tend to render the progress of those
reforms safe and constitutional. He had just been in-
formed by some of his friends now present, belonging to
Paisley, that thousands would immediately be thrown out
of employment. He asked how, without any means of
relief to the unemployed in Scotland, the authority of
the law could be maintained?
Mr. DICKENS, the Mayor of Carlisle, entered into a
detail of the distresses to which our labouring population
is now exposed, adding that those distresses were yearly

increasing.
Mr. BROOKE, the boroughrecve of Manchester, stated
various facts which had come under his own knowledge in
Manchester, showing the misery endured by the poorer
classes of that towu. From a printed document it ap-
peared that there were 1953 families in which the average
earning of each individual did not exceed is. ,lid. per
week. A large part of that sum must have been spent in
pawn-offices. The mill-owners were every day declining,
and had greatly reduced their hours of labour. Ha had
sold a mill in Manchester four years ago for 32,000/.
and he had lately re-purchased it for 10,000/.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that he need hardly observe, that
in giving his opinion en the present occasion, be spoke
merely as a Member of ['ornament, and not in his official
capacity. Ile was afraid his opinions would not completely
satisfy the gentlemen present. lie was certainly opposed
to the present system, as he thought it was attended with
many disadvantages, and made the corn trade little better
than a gambling transaction. He was satisfied the system
was a bad one, and he would never refuse voting for in-
quiring into it. He would therefore support the motion
of Mr. Villiers this tear as he had done last year, but at
the same time he could not advocate a total repeal of the
existing laws. He believed that such a change would
be of too violent a nature, and he did not think it would
he advisable to deprive our agriculturists of all protection.
His vote would not, therefore, be for a total repeal, but
for a fixed duty, which he thought would be a more ra-
tional, moderate, and just system than the present.
Mr. ELLISON, of Dewsbury, said he was a Poor-law
Guardian in the centre of a manufacturing population, and
he felt convinced that the Corn-laws and the Poor-laws
could net subsist together,
The CHAIRMAN said in allusion to observations which
had often been made, that he thought Government might
inquire into the possibility of entering into negotiations
with the Governments which bad entered into the Prussian
League for the purpose of enlarging our commerce with
them.
The Chancellor of the ExcueorEa said that the facts
which had been brought forward undoubtedly deserved
the attention of the Government and the country. It would,
however, be very difficult to enter into negotiations with
foreign Governments, unless there was a certainty of their
being sanctioned by Parliament. Nothing could-be more
dangerous than such a proceeding.
Mr. Coecers said that the present question was of far
too important a nature to allow the Government to remain
undecided on it. He thought that no Ministry could any
longer stand without being committed one way or the other
on the subject ; and that a Ministry taking up the repeal of
the Corn-laws would eventually have the support of the
majority of the country.
The Deputies returned to Brown's Hotel shortly after
three o'clock.
The CHAIRMAN, on taking the chair, stated that he sup-
posed all present had been to the interview, and had heard
all that passed, and from that every gentleman could form
his own opinion. One thing was perfectly clear, and that
was that there was only one course to pursue, and that was
to go on with their appeal to their fellow citizens over the
whole country. To enable them to do that, one thing was
necessary, namely, funds, and they would, therefore, allow
him to call their attention to the subscription list which
was laid before the meeting yesterday. Many gentle-
men, yesterday, stated that they wished to have time
to consult with their colleagues as to the sums
which they should put down. It was necessary for them
to buckle on their armour and proceed in the course which
had already met with such success. Mr. Beaden, a Dele-
gate from Taunton, was present, and would be enabled to
inform the meeting of some extraordinary exertions in their
cause that were taking place in the agricultural districts.
Mr. Alderman COBDEN said he should not be doing jus-
tice to Mr. Beaden if he did not state that he had been
agitating their cause in Taunton, where he had lectured
and spent much money in the glorious work they bad in
view.
Mr. BEADRN then camo forward amid much cheering.
It was true, as had been stated by Mr. Alderman Cobden,
that he had devoted his time, and not a little money, in
agitating the subject. He had within the last few days
delivered a couple of lectures gratuitously, and the result
was a Working Man's Association. He had never wit-
nessed such excitement. It was said by the chairman that
they must proceed in the agitation ; now all that he was
afraid of was that agitation on this question could not be
stopped.—( Cheers.) Lord Bacon said there was no
reasoning with a man who had a hungry belly. He be-
lieved that the people were ripe for revolution; the Go-
vernment would do nothing for them till they were in a
scrape, which he was afraid would soon be the case. It
i appeared to him that they ought to get this question
continually before Parliament; let detached motions
be brought forward ; let one, for instance, be for ascer-
taining the cause of distress; let others be for other sub.
jects, all of which would have a tendency to the repeal of
the Corn-laws. Such motions would pester the Govern-
ment, and something like alteration would be the result.
--(Cheers.) As far as he could agitate he would do so ;
he was no new convert to the question, but had been its
advocate for years. Sir Thomas Lethbridge had told him
that he was for a fixed duty; but rather than DO alteration
should take place, he would vote for a total re-
peal. But he was ready to support a fixed duty of 7s.
if it was an expiring one. Sir Thomas Lethbridge
had got much odium for the courso he had adopted, but he
was determined to persevere in his good work.
A DELEGATE said that Lord Hatherton was of the same
opinion ; if ha could not get a fixed duty he would vote for
a total repeal.
Mr. HAYWARD said that from the interview they had had
that day, it was clear that it was the conviction of her
Majesty's Ministers that the great mass of the people were
not prepared for a repeal of the Corn-laws. This was
their fortress, and how was it to be attacked? Why, by
enlightening the people on the subject of the Corn-laws,
which starved them. By agitating the question in the
manner they were doing, the result would be pressing the
people on the Minivers. That was not to be done without
funds, and he trusted, therefore, that all should come forward
quickly.—(C heers.)
Mr. HINDLE Y, M. P., apologised for attempting to ad-
dress the meeting, not being a Delegate, but he trusted
those present would excuse him if he said a few words, as
he was intimately connected with the commercial in-
terests of the country. His object in coming there to-
-1 day was to know whether they really intended
Mr. Villiers to bring forward the motion to-morrow,
and to express the strong feeling he had against pressing it
forward.
A DELF.GATE observed that he had seen Mr. Villiers;
that he had passed a good night, his health was much im-
proved, and that he would certainly bring forward the
motion to-morrow evening.
Mr. HINDLE Y did not at all desire to interfere with
the determination of Mr. Villiers who had taken such a
prominent part in this matter that of course his opinions
ought to be consulted, but he ( Mr. Hindley) felt that lie
would be wanting in his duty to his constituents if he did
not come to state his opinions--these opinions might
be taken for what they were worth. If the
motion were brought on to-morrow, the division would in
all probability take place on Friday ; and he heliered that
all expected a strong majority against them. It was said
they should appeal to the country. The Ministers said the
majority of the country were against the repeal, and that
;hey must enlighten the country upon the subject.—
( Ilenr, hear.) Now he would ask, would the chance of
enlightening- :he country he so great after the determina-
tion of Parliament was known or, the subject ?—( Cries of
" Yes, yes.") His opinion was very different. He would
hitill
tusiet s uwcah, allow that the feeling of passion among the people—the
feeling
terms—mg
psssionate g on which they
not that kind of
of • regretil t be a ngdr e adtee'rP craartnhe'.f mhoememnitg,
trade oueht to Y
I""tes I))ftleefereannd his oc;inion afar)
oughtpeal
to
t to
bree lrs• a s Thein ga,
Fas
eturned to their
ter, and the Delegates in the meantimeoriere
would be a
that if Mr. Villiers' motion were postponed till after , ._
of the peoi
eonstitueets and agitated the country ,
it were brought on this week. Another thing to w. ,
miy
much better chance of the 'notion then being carrileidatblitaititeif
The present -
,aiu,,,gdhwthvesalook was the state, of parties.
nist.,rs were not certain of continuing in office three weeks,
l)
'prrtiecei ps"i-teartee, so nicely
i ceeili yd
endeavour etdo t 121 ought
: hii'eult
to be too i
would offer the highest prize.—( Hear, hear.) Ile begged
pardon for obtruding his sentiments on the meeting, but he
should deeply lament if they persevered in their present
determination.
The CHAIRMAN said the Delegates were greatly obliged
to Mr. Ilimiley
fur the expression of his opinion, but this
subject was very fully
~,,„ing, and thocirehasdiscussed by the Delegates last
wasli, havingscarcely
u ea s tdi oi dissentient
ebnrtoi eulg' th
brought voice
(tlinetell'%l"..o—prifeltlear, hear. hear.) A note hid been re-
ebnasmeto.
colsepeiiviliebidi,le:Fal3n-Niitnrigt-atVt the eoitnuC'igtibi notnwnt(o,ii::httooh-ebmesot to-morrow, rut thatierivih,ea: ndd
el ilteah)aw,ct(d.llisi
( Hear, hear.)
LORD ASHBURTON'S MISTAKES.