The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-13 00:00:00

PRE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 13, 1P47

upon which there was now due 34,0001. of interest, but
no payments of any kind had been made on account
of either principal or interest. These were advances
made, not to poor and impoverished districts. Thus,
if they took advances made either for internal com-
munications, or to the three richest towns and cities in
Ireland, the same result would be found—no repayment of
either principal or interest, and all the advances and
the interest had been sacrifices!. A distinction
existed with respect to the advances in Ireland
made to private individuals, which had in most
cases been repaid, but the advances made to private com-
panies and undertakings of this description had, generally
speaking, not been paid. The advances made to the Dublin
and Kingstown Railway had, however, been all repaid.—
(Loud cheers from Lord George Bentinck and his
supporters.) He thought the Noble Lord would
not, however, be able to discover any parallel
between that railway and these country railways
which he proposed to construct all over the country. If this,
then, be so, and the fact was indisputable, he did not think that
he was other than justified in saying that it was by no means so
clear as the Noble Lord had supposed that the security to be
afforded by these railways was of CO unexceptional a, cha-
racter.—( Hear, hear.) There was also another objection to
the measure of the Noble Lord, especially if the measure was
to be considered as a comprehensive scheme, because it would
put both the good and bad schemes upon the same footing of
equality. If the proposed examination of the Board of Works
were to be of any avail, then if they were to reject all those
mersures which they considered as inadequate security, the
measure of the Noble Lord would not amount to the bene-
fit he seemed to attach to his measure; but if the Board should
think fit to recommend all the schemes, then it would be a
grievous injustice to those schemes among them which
were considered as really solid or good ones. He had been in-
formed that the best of the lines now in the course of construction
in which the companies had advanced sums sufficient to enable
them to barrow under the terms of their Act, had been f
some time borrowing money at 4% or 5 per cent. Upon the
announcement of the plan of the Noble Lord, that the other
railways would be able to obtain advances at 31 per cent.,tthe
value of the shares immediately fell 1 per cent.
Lord G. BEN TINCK—What line was that?
CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The Great
Southern and Western he believed. He would now call the
attention of the House to the opinions of other persons beside
himself as to the injurious effect of this measure. He
would trouble the House by reading a letter he had re-
eeived from a very wealthy gentleman, residing in Dribkn—
a gentleman whom he would not then name, but whose
opinions were entitled to the greatest respect. He said in
his letter, " If the Government were to give the means of
obtaining advances of money at 3i per cent., the project
would have the effect of rendering the most bankrupt con-
cern rich, and putting them upon a level with the best lines
of the country. If the Government should be insane enough
to yield to the cry persisted in for railways in Ireland
without the most stringent conditions, and the most satisfactory
explanations as to the proprietary and the paid up capital of
those schemes, the railways in Ireland will become no more
than mere sinks of speculation in that country. And if the
provision requiring a certain amount of paid up capital in
each company before they had the power to borrow were to be
leelenoetvneeryfro bestmmuhe s of them.p a
set aside, the effect would be to place all the worst lines in
the countryionmtintended
ded to r e
e g
o provisions
a
which
yellers
lh
o with
gentlemen
h
He confessed when he looked at this Bill he thought there
escuilfattihoenya
werewere
which had not met their original expectations. For
instance, the 29th clause provided that where any share-
holder could not pay up his calls the money advanced
by the Government should be applied to the purpose. This
looked very like helping the speculator rather than the public.
That did not seem to be a provision to insure employment
to the destitute poor. Then, again, there was the 31st clause,
which provided that in the event of a company abandonieg
works they should be taken up by the state who should be
liable for all the debts and undertakings of the company.
Now he did not think these were propositions calcula.ed to
provide for the employment of destitute persons in Ireland.
They were, however, he admitted, remarkably beneficial
to shareholders.—( Hear.) He confessed a great nanny of the
provisions of the Bill were better calculated for the relief of
destitute shareholders than destitute persons.—(Loud cheers. )
There had been, however, a much more tempting project be-
fore the House than that of the Noble Lord. Some time
before the introduction of the measure of the Noble
Lord a meeting was held in Dublin of shareholders
in different Irish railways, who agreed to a petition, which was
subsequently presented to the House, asking—not for so large
an amount of money as the Noble Lord sought—but for a much
less sum, as they proposed that no advances should be
made to the companies, except they had expended
20 per cent. of their capital, and that the Government should
advance 30 per cent. when they had expended 501. per cent. of
their capital..—(Hear, hear.) Thus they proposed that fur
every 501. p'r cent. of their capital expended on the
works, that the Government should advance 301. per cent.
This he considered a much more reasonable proposition, as
they only sought the Government to advance about
/4,000,0004, whereas the Noble Lord sought an advance
of 16,000,6001., or two-thirds of their whole expen-
diture. It came from the parties themselves, and
was a conch fairer proposition than the one proposed by the
Noble Lord's Bill. The Government did not entertain that
proposition, because they were about to propose large
grants far the purpose of preventing actual starva-
tion ; and, whatever was then necessary for that
purpose he should not hesitate to ask the House, but he dis-
tinctly refused to put a burden, or to risk the putting of a bur-
den of any kind, on the people of the country for the mere
benefit of railway speculation in Ireland.—(Loud cheers.) By
the calculation made on this subject by those parties, the ag-
gregate expediture was under 5,000,0001., but the Noble Lord
proposed the expenditure of 16,000,000 i., upwards of two-thirds,
and both proposed advantages nearly similar—they both
proposed to employ a similar number of men, but which of the
two was correct was not for him to say. It certainly was most
extraordinary that the petitioners calculated to employ so many
with one-third of the sum proposed by the Noble Lord. He
believed that the Noble Lord when he stated that the
capital of railway companies in Ireland was sixteen
millions, had included the capital of those com-
pat.ies whose lines had been already executed—if
such was the case a reduction should be made in the employ-
ment it would give.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord pro-
posed that railways to the extent of fifteen hundred miles
should be executed, which would give employment to one
hundred and ten thousand persons. Now if lie calculated the
amount of capital of railways already constructed, it was
likely he had fallen into the same error respecting
the number of miles of railway to be laid down,
and if such were the fact there should also be
some reduction made. But without presuming to enter into
any discussion on the subject with the Right Hon. Member for
Sunderland, whose experience was
,probably far greater than
that of any gentleman s in that House upon matters of the na-
ture they were discussing, he had made some inquiry as to
the number of persons engaged upon the construction of a line,
and he had obtained his information from a person of very great
experience, who stated, that to the best of his belief, five-and-
te enty per cent. was the outside of the capital spent upon
labour, five-and-twenty per cent, on four millions would leave
about one million to be expended in labour. Taking the
wages at ten shillings a week, and the number of men em-
ployed at twenty to thirty per mile,
which was the average, it
would leave the number of men employed forty-five thousand
instead of one hundred and ten thousand, as stated by the
Noble Lord. The Noble Lord went on to say, that calcu-
lating that one hundred and ten thousand persons were em-
ployed by the measure, and multiplying that number by five,
it would give support to fire hundred and fifty thousand per-
sons. He had shown the number likely to be employed, and
thee did not come up to the calculation of the Noble Lord.
He would make every allowance. He might be underrating
the number, or his information might have underrated them,
but between one hundred and ten thousand and forty-five
thousand there was a very large difference; and he w
fully borne out, that nothing like the number named by
the Noble Lord would be employed by the measure.
He thought that the Hon. Gentleman opposite was a very erro-
neous calculator as to the average number of labourers likely
to be employed on railways, and from whose labour four per-
sons were to derive their substance. He thought that those
able-bodied labourers who were employed on railways were
not likely to have a family of four persons connected with
them, and supported by their labour. He did not believe that
any one would get up in that House and say that he believed
that amongst the railway labourers distress was most prevalent
in this country, and anybody who was at all conversant with the
subject, and who had been in the neighbourhood of a railway in
the course of construction, ust know that those pe-sons em-
ployed on railways were never family men, and seldom had
any number of persons connected with them. They employed
a considerable portion of their wages in good living, and con-
tributed, as the Noble Lord said, considerably to the Customs and
Excise. Ho did not, therefore, think that there was a reason
to sulipose that there would be anything like the amount of
550,000 parsons benefited, as the Noble Lord had stated.
There was another consideration in this respect
which he thought of still more importance, which
must be recollected also. ( Hear, hear.) The
labourers employed upon railways were very seldom the class
of persons
who were in the worst state of destitution in Ire-
land. The Hon. Member for the University of Dublin had
told them that he had been exceedingly anxious to bring cer-
""" Presentments under the Treasury minute, and his objec-
tion was, that he found railways did not employ the unskilled
•
labourer; that was also the., case in other parts of the country.
It was distinctly proven the other day, in the ease of a railway
passing near the residence of agentleman,residing in the south of
Ireland, that the contractor brought all his own workmen
with him, and not one single person in the neighbourhood was
employed. Early in October last, a Treasury minute was
issued, empowering baronies to make presentments for the
e
arth out of that minute
earth work of railways. In the
considerable difficulties had arisen with the baronies as to
the employment of the labourers on the spot.
Subsequently Subsequently to the issuing of the
minute,
had received a deputation from a number of gentlemen
in-
terested in Irish railways, who asked him what course they
o the
ought to take. They complained that in a great number
f
because the
baronies, presentments could not be obtained,
railway companies would net employ the labourers of
each barony through which the lines passed, in prefe-
rence to skilled labourers. The railway companies said
it would not be fair for them to repay the baronies in full
for the presentments they would make, and at the same time
compel them to employ their unskilled labourers, but they
expressed themselves willing to employ them in pre-
ference to skilled labourers, providing the baronies would be at
the loss of the difference between employing the two.—( Hear,
hear,) The baronies would not do so—they refused to submit
to make good this difference, to make up this small loss ; yet
these were the very ulite; in Ireland, who were complaining
of presentments being made for unproductive works. This
was the difficulty which had attended the operation of the
Treasury minute. But there had been one railway for which
presentments had been made to a considerable extent ; the
Waterford and Limerick Railway. In four baronies through
which the line passed, presentments had been made for
78,0001., but the moment this was done, a letter from the
secretary had been received, stating that the company did not
find it suit them to employ the destitute labourers of the Board
of Works in preference to independent labourers. In fact,
such labourers as the baronies supplied did not suit.—( Hear,
hear.) What he said was this, that the measure for promot-
ing the construction of railroads might be a good one for the
proprietors, but as regarded the relief of the destitute poor in
Ireland, it was utterly and altogether useless. The result of
experience was that railway companies employed skilful
labourers from all parts of the country, where-
ever they could get them, while it should be the
object of that House, and the country and the Government, to
afford relief to the unskilful labourer, who was starving__
(Hear, hear.) He believed that it was impossible to unite the
employment of one class with the relief of the other. There
was another circumstance which was worthy the consideration
of the House, and it was this—if any person took the trouble of
looking at the map of Ireland, he would find that the mass of
Irish railways were to be constructed on the east side of that
country, namely, from Dublin to Cork, and from Cork to
Limerick. Now, the destitution and distress which prevailed in
Ireland, existed not so much on the east as on the western side
of the island. These were the persons who lived upon seaweed in
consequence of the failure of the potatoes ; these were the persons
who really suffered
the greatest amount of hardship ; these were
the persons among whom disease and destitution were making
fearful ravages. IVere these persons to be relieved by the con-
struction of railways on the opposite side of the country ? He
believed that he had shown that even for the destitute persons
in even the counties and baronies through which the railways
undo fife railways would afford but very little relief; but for

the relief of persons living on the other side of the island,
sixty or seventy miles from the part of the country where the
railways was being constructed, the measure would be a total
failure.—( Hear, hear.) Why, if it were possible that rail-
way directors would sympathise in a great degree with the
miseries of the labourer, that sympathy would be bounded by
the necessity that existed for not sacrificing the interests of
the shareholders.—( Hear, hear.) But if they brought up
labourers from other parts of the country, and neglected the
resident poor, what would be the result ? What but an imme-
diate riot. Why they found that even in England they had
faction fights between the Irish and English labourers. The
result would be that the persons brought there as labourers
would inevitably fie ill-used and probably driven off. This
being so, and believing as he did, and as he had shown to the
House his reasons for believing, that the measure would not
prove adapted for the relief of the really destitute, even in
those parts of the country through which the proposed
railways would pass, because those parts of the country were
not the parts which were the most distressed, and that those
parts of the country where relief was most needed no available
assistance would be rendered by the measure. lie had also
shown that the present pressure upon the Government, the
state of the finances, and the depressed state of the country
rendered the measure of the Noble Lord totally unfitted to
receive the support of the Government. The Government
were prepared to abandon the mode of giving assistance by
means of public or other works, because they found that the
sums so expended did not go so far in the relief as they should
do, and that a considerable waste had taken place in the expen-
diture of the public money, and that a considerable por-
tion of the sums paid by this country did not effectually
afford relief to the distressed people of Ireland. It'.
then, that be a good and valid season fur aban-
doning and discontinuing that system of affording relief,
and he thought it was, and the other system which the Go-
veernment were prepared to adopt, would cause the same sums
to go much farther towards the relief of the existieg distress,
then he thought those circumstances conclusive against the
doctrine of the Noble Lord. Upon the data which he had
laid before the House, it uppeared, that one quarter only of
the funds had been made available for the employment bf
labour, and that the labour so employed would not be that de-
scription of labour, for those which the Government were most
anxious to find relief. lie was well aware that this scheme
had, in the opinion of many lion. Members. great charms,
because it would afford some employment for the people of Ire-
land, and the Government were told that if this great scheme
were rejected to what other sources were they to look for the
relief of the people of Ireland? If there were no other scheme
before the House it might be made some reason for pressing
this measure. But if there be other schemes before the House,
the expenditure of which was very large and tended more
directly to the relief of the poor, then he said that the argu-
ments fell to the ground, and there was no reason for adopting
the present scheme, in preference to other schemes based sim-
ply upon the advance of large sums to Ireland. He did not
mean to deny that if a large amount of English capital were to
be carried into Ireland it would be of considerable utility to
that country. When, however, such advances were
to be made from the produce of English taxa-
tion, the House ought to consider the subject
before they gave their assent to such a measure. The House
must be just before they were generous, and that they should
watch carefully over any grants that might he made, and see
that they were properly applied. Taking into consideration
the present amount of the distress in Ireland, it should be con-
sidered that the measure which had been read a third time
this evening (the Destitute Persons Relief Bill), involved a
considerable outlay, and would also afford effectual and imme-
diate relief to the distress of the people of Ireland. The vo-
luntary and unaided exertions of many districts in Ireland had
supported the whole starving population. Not many days ago, he
had received a letter from one district relating that a number of
persons, who were but little removed from destitution, by their
own exertions had raised the sum of 1761., and supported the
destitute poor, of which sum 1361. were subscribed by the
farmers, and only 401. by the landed proprietors. He never
read an account with greater pleasure and satisfaction, and it
gave him hope that the condition of Ireland might still be im-
proved by her own exertions. Ile regretted, however, that
the same post brought him another letter, from the county of
Mayo, and there he found the landlords were pursuing a
system of ejectment far beyond anything ever attempted yet.
The processes entered at the quarter sessions of Balleybay
were 6,400, of which 4,000 were at the suit of the landlords.
The consequence was, that the people were flyiee from the
spot, and no doubt many of them had been landed in Liver-
pool. He despaired of improving the condition
of Ireland while this system was going on. The
Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Bath (Mr. Roebuck),
asked the ether night to what extent the means which had
been prepared for the relief of Ireland would be carried. He
had a right, and the country had a right to demand informa-
tion on such an important matter. Before many days passed
he should be able to state definitely to the House the extent of
the relief which the Government proposed should be given to
that country. He was surprised to hear the Hon. Member for
Limerick (Mr. S. O'Brien) inquire when this enor-
mous expense was to cease ? Enortnoes he could
not believe it to he, so long as persons were suffering
from starvation in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) But however the
lion. Members for Limerick and Wycombe might despair of
the success of the measure which the Government had
proposed; yet they, and others failed to point out any other
measures which would accomplish the objeet which they had
in view better.—(Loud cheers.) If he thought this scheme
of lending money to Irish railways was a better scheme than
those the Government had proposed—that it would bring both
food and salvation to the people who were starving in Ireland—
he should not be ashamed to adopt it, from
.whatsoever quarteri t
came, not less from the Noble Lord opposite, than from other
lion. Members, but believing that it would not answer
the end for which it was preposed, and as no suggestions had
been made by those resident in Ireland, and practically
acquainted with the question for the framing of a better mea-
sure, he should rely as confidently as he could rely upon the
measures of the Government, as those best calculated to afford
relief to the indigent people of Ireland at the present moment.
In saying this, h. was perfectly aware that it was not enough
to deal simply with the present calamity, as he believed that
measures must be framed which must go much further than
dealing with the starvation of the people.—(Loud cheers.)
He was fully convinced that a great change—a revolution, he
might say —in the social condition of the people of Ireland was
necessary.—(Cheers.) He had long entertained that opinion,
and had expressed it before he had the honour to hold his pre-
sent office—six weeks before, and immediately after he had had
an opportunity of reading the papers which arrived at that time
from Ireland. So fir back as September last he expressed his
opinion that, in addition to the question of starvation, there
were others of a much snore important character. which that
distress had shown more than ever necessary. In fact, from
the present suffering much good could not fail to be derived.
The failure of the potato was not the least important. The
plots of land ceased to be valuable where they failed to produce
crops, so that those ag arian outrages which took place for the
purpose of obtaining land would in all probability cease when
that land ceased to be valuable. Labourers who came to this
country for the purpose of labouring in the harvests in England
and Scotland did so in the full confidence that their families in
Ireland would derive support from the patch of potatoes during
their absence. Now this would no longer be the case. Though
the people of Ireland might no longer be maintained by the
potato which they cultivated, if advantage were taken of the
calamity, they could not fail to be placed in a better condition.
Then he believed that a change will have taken plat in Ire-
land which would tend materially to the future benefit of the
country, but it was an exceedingly different thing to interfere,
as now proposed. The Irish came over to England to work
upon railways to get in the hay harvest, end the other crops,
but they had yet to learn the use of stated employment and
wages from day to day, that was a mode of employment far
more conducive to the establishment of a sound relation between
master and man, farmer and labourer, in Ireland, than any
landlord or tenant Bill whatever. To promote a system of labour
for Ireland, not upon railroads, but upon agriculture, a Bill had
been introduced, carrying out to a greater extent the principle
of making advances to the landed proprietor in Ireland. Much
had been said most unjustly against them ; he believed by means
of the Government measure many will be induced to cultivate
their land, who, heretofore, has not paid sufficient attention to
the improvement of their estates, and he was also of opinion
that a great quantity of land, by means of this system, would
be brought into a state of cultivation, affording in-
creased quantity of food and employment for the people.
Their first duty and care ought to be to increase Ike production
of the soil, and the means of agricultural employment. Other
Bills there were of a similar description with which it was not
necessary to go into at any length. They were Bills for the
improvement and drainage of waste lands; and all these Bills
were framed with the object of improving the soil and increasing
the food of the country. For these purposes he was inclined to
make any advance necessary, and for the purposes of present
relief, and he was sure that the poorest classes in Ireland would
willingly bear their share for the assistance of their Irish bre-
thren ; but when he heard, day after day, of the distress in the
country, and knew that many of the mills were stopped, he
should ho ashamed to come to the House and ask for advances
to be taken out of the country. For these reasons he would
oppose the measure of the Noble Lord, and move that it be read
that day six months.
Mr. BAILEY opposed the motion. He could not consent
to the present measure for the construction of railways in • Ire-
land when Scotland was in the same condition of distress. He
would not agree to the Arent for Ireland unle•s there was one
for Scotland also.—( Hear, bear.) The people of Scotland
were suffering from a similar calamity which was afflicting the
people of Ireland ; but because the landed population of that
country were trusting to their own resources they heard nothing
of grants for public works.—( Hear, hear.) With the permis-
sion of the House, he would point out the course the proprietors
of Scotland had taken to meet the national crisis, and he saw
no reason why the proprietors of Ireland should not have
adopted similar means. In doing so, he would take the ex-
ample of two proprietors in the county which he represented,
not because they were more entitled to notice than many
others in Scotland, but because they had come more especially
under his notice. They were the chief proprietors of the island of Skye—Lord Macdonald and Mr. Donald Macleod. Skye
contained 26,000 inhabitants, while the rental was 25 00 d.
year. It was manifest that at the present price of grain
this rental would not support the population more than two
months. Had not these landowners taken early precautions the
whole population would have been starving.
The potato crop
which supported them nine months in the year, had been an
entire failure, and the oats by which they were maintained the
other three, had also been
short. He did not believe there
was any part in Ireland which was in a worse condition. In
Aegust last, they were aware of the total failure of the potato
crop in the island, buitmthmeeyddiaidt notl wait till the calamity over-
took them, but they applied to the Government
for a loan, for which they offerede' the
Act,
turihtyu of their estates.
They were referred to the Drainage
that it would not answer their purpose thtetpreyseanar form.
' They met the views of the House, and the Housee made such
amendments in the Drainage Act aes,maelt the views of these Gen-
tlemen. The people in the Highlands had, in consequence,
been set to work at drainage and the culture of land. Of
course, in so large a population, there must be
many persons who could not get labour—(Hear, hear)
and who must be supported. These had received some little
assistance from the relief committee at Edinburgh, but, with
that exception, the single and undivided support of the people
had been borne by the Scottish landlords. He knew not if
their resources could carry them through the harvest, but at
all events they had the singular honour of having made their
best endeavours to meet the difficulties of this crisis. Now,
with respect to the measure of the Noble Lord, he could very
well understand why the Right Honourable the Lord
Mayor of York could easily convince himself that the
construction of railways was a universal panacea
for every evil.—(Laughter.) But he was really astonished
that the Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn, should consider
that the future prosperity of Ireland might be trusted to such
a system. Instead of depending on a railway system, it were
better that they turned their attention to the cultivation of
land, and if the population of that country were to have a
better description of food, and he prayed God that they might,
that could only be procured by a better system of cultivation,
which would ultimately, he thought, relieve that country
from her present distresses. He had already stated
that he did not rise for the purpose of consi-
dering the question before the House, but simply
to protest in his character of a Scottish representative against
this outlay of the public money. 1f they wished to assist Ire-
land, let them grant the proprietors every facility by way of
loan for the improvement of their lands. Let the Govern-
ment have good security for the money advanced, and let them
leave the outlay to the Irish proprietors, who were the per-
sons most favourably circumstanced to superintend the distri-
bution of it.
Mr. STUART agreed with the Hon. Member for Inverness
in the compliment ho hMI paid 'to the Scottish proprietors,

whose mode of meeting the present evil had made it unneces-
sary for this House to consider for their sake any one of those
important measures, which they were now compelled to con-
sider, with reference to the alleviation of L ish distresses.
When they were discussing questions to relieve the present
calamities of Ireland, it was essential that everything calculated
to excite acrimonious feelings should be avoided, and he
wished that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had followed the
course which he himself had laid down on this subject. But,
so far from doing so, to his surprise, the Right Hon. Gentle-
man had referred to personal considerations, and had merle
Boned the names of the Gentlemen upon the back of the
Bill. He thought that if any two names in the kinsedom were
more calculated than others to give force to a measure of this
description, they were the names of the Hon. Members for
Sunderland and Westmoreland. He denied altogether the
character which had been given to this measure. He denied
that any man who looked into it could say, that it
was a measure prepared for the relief of the share-
holders and other persons connected with railway's.
The avowed purpose of the Bill was to stimulate railways
in Ireland, and thus promote labour. They were told
that the Government was not a set of money lenders to ad-
vance money on these occasions. If that were to be so, the
objection applied equally to all the measures which they had
been discussing for the relief of Ireland. The object of the
Bill under discussion was, that the Government should inter-
pose its credit for the assistance of works of a public nature—
( Hear, hear)—likely to employ the people. The Chancellor
of the Exchequer said in answer, that the plan had already
failed, and he referred to the case of the Ulster Canal as an
instance of money lent, and lost to the country. He reterred
to the work of Mr. Porter, who had applied his attention to
the subject of the money lent to the Ulster Canal, and to its
effects, and he found that this gentleman speaking of
the canal, says that during its progress the work
proved a great blessing to the district through
which it passed, and gave constant employment at
fair wages to a great number of labourers, and cured them to a
great extent of their passion for ardent spirits, and enabled
them to save money out of their wages. The instance to which
the Right Hon. Gentleman referred to as a failure, he referree
to as a suecess, and he asked if it had not proved a blessing to
the country ? And though it was an improvident loan it weir
of real service to the labourers and other classes. Another
public work referred to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer as
an instance of money lost to the country was the Dublin and
Kingstown Railway, to which money was lent. They had before
them many returns of the extravagant cost of railways in their
construction, but the Dublin and Kingstown Railway beat them
all. for it cost no less than 60,0001. per mile, arid
yet, with all these disadvantages, the railway
had contrived to pay the money advanced and
now returned a profit of 9 per cent. A reference was made
to an Hon. Member for Scotland, and when that Hon. 'Mem-
ber was referred to, he (Mr. Stuart) was surprised why he,
above all men, had not spoken in favour of tne expenditure
made by Government. if Lord M'Donald and Mr. M'Leod
of M'Leod were enabled to support the poor upon their own
estates, was it not owing to the money expended in the coun-
try by Government, and which had conferred the most lasting
benefits to the country ? It was matter of notoriety, that not
only had the condition of Scotland been improved by money
advanced by wise statesmen one hundred years ago, but of late
the money advanced by private enterprise had materially
tended to the improvement, and enhanced the value of the coun-
try. There had been formed in Scotland, at the Government
expense, 1,186 miles of road, and more than 1,000 bridges. Mr.
Porter had applied his attention to Ireland, and he had already
referred to his account of the result of the loan to the Ulster
Canal ; and he would now refer to Mr. Griffith, one of Mr.
Porter's authorities, to show the material benefit of interna-
tional communication between even the most barren districts
of Ireland. He had referred to the district between Cork,
Kerry, and Limerick, in the year 1822, as one of the worst
districts in Ireland, and the refuge and habitations of White-
bays, smugglers, and robbers ; and on the formation of a
turnpike road, the country in 1829, only seven' years after,
presented an appearance of very considerable inprovement and
industry. Mr. Nimmo, another of Mr. Niter's authorities,
had also referred to this subject, and stated, speaking of a part
of the come y of Kerry, that a few years since there
was not a decent public house in it, and the nearest poet-office
was thirty miles distant; and since the new road was made
the most considerable improvements had manifested themselves.
He would ask any Hon. Member what in a financial point of
view was the result of the constructions of those works of in-
ternal communication, and whether it had not contributed
materially to benefit the revenue of the country, and to im-
prove the social condition of the people ?—(Cheers. ) The
measure of the Noble Lord had been called, most unfairly, a
measure to promote speculation and gambling, and to put the
money of the English tax-payer into the pockets of the Irish
landlords. It was easy to demonstrate to any person, who would
take the trouble of inquiring into the subject, that when the
Noble Lord was accu,ed of bringing forward a people for such
a purpose, and calling upon the people of England to pay whe-
ther they would or not a large sum of money for the construc-
tion of Irish railways, that never was there a misrepresentation
more gross, or one which showed more convincingly the igno-
rance of those who made it.—(Cheers from Lord George Ben-
tinck. ) He ventured to tell the Hon. Member for Bath, who
seemed to take so much interest on behalf of the tax-paying
people of England, more even than they did themselves, that
neither he nor the people of England would be called upon
to put their hands in their pocket for a single sixpence.
The way in which the money was proposed to be raised was
such as, he would venture to say, that, if the Hon. Member
fur Bath, were carefully to consider, he would feel inclined to
give the measure his most cordial support.—(Cheers. ) It
was not proposed to take 4,000,0001. per annum from the
taxes of the country. What was proposed was this, that if
good security were given, money should be advanced to the
different railway companies, upon the credit of the Govern-
ment.—( Hear, hear.) No advances would be made until a
mest searching scree my had been instituted by an officer
appointed by the Government, into the merits of the raelway
requiring the loan, and until the receipt of whose certificate
was obsained as to the probability of the line when constructed
being such as to afford ample remuneration to the share-
holders, and also whether the line were of such a nature as
would afford immediate employment to the people and benefit
to the cout.try, but not till then, was the credit of the Govern-
ment to be pledged.—(Cheers from Lord G. Bentinek's party.)
If the money was raised by means of Exchequer Bills,
Government security would be given to them, and any person
would be at I:herty to purchase them or not, at his pleasure.
The capital of the Exchequer Bills had the security of the
Government pledged for the payment of the principal and
interest of those Bilis. Those Exchequer Bills would only be
issued upon the certificate of the Government officers, who seas
to report upon the merits of the scheme, seeking the aid of the
Government.—( Cheers.) It was not a compulsory measure
to intitle the holders of all shares to come in for a general
scramble of the public money.
Lord G BEN.FINCK—The officer of the Government
was to be held responsible for the report which he made.
Mr. STUART—His Noble Friend had rightly reminded
him of the responsibility of the Government officer who, if he
should make a false report, either by fraud or by error, was to
be held responsible to the Government and the House. The
issue of Exchequer bills would not be the only mode of raising
the necessary money for this purpose; there was another mode,
which was by the issue of loan debentures similar to those
issued for the construction of railways in Canada, making the
interest payable at the Bank of England, and guaranteeing the
security of the consolidated fund for the repayment of the
principal and interest.--(Cheers). It was nothing new for
the Government to interfere in the construction and manage-
ment of railways. In Belgium and France the Government
had interfered to a great extent, and although in Belgium the
rates of fares were so low as not to pay a fair rate of interest
for the money expended in the construction of the railways,
still considerable benefits had resulted to the revenue at large
in consequence of the advantages possessed by the
people in their cheap mode of conveyance.—(Hear, hears.)
In his opinion he was borne out by the statements
of Mr. Porter who, in his remarks upon the subject of the
railways in Belgium, stated, "that although the interest ob-
tained from the railway was only a nominal per tentage, still
the nation at large reaped anmeasurahle advantages from the
dimini•hed charges of conveyance, which hid been of immense
benefit to the people at large. Some Honourable Mem-
bers seemed inclined to oppose the measure, fearing that
another and greater calamity would arise, upon the grounu
of the Prime Minister of the country having threatened to re-
sign if the measure were carried. It was not impossible to see
that some embarrassment and difficulty would exist in conse-
quence of their resignation. He hoped, however, that Hon.
Members would not be induced to vote in opposition to their
honest opinions upon this subject in consequence of this threat.
The Right Hon. Baronet, the late Prime Minister of England,
once came down to the House, and used the same threat, and
stated that if the House did not rescind their resolution he
would resign. Some Hon. Members, certainly not much to
their credit, in their anxiety to return the Right Hon. Baronet
to power, accordingly rescinded their votes, and the threat of
the fearful resignation was not carried out. At a later period
during the last se•sion the Right Hon. Baronet endeavoured
to use the same threat upon the Irish Coercion Bill. He was
not, however, able to keep himself in power by such means,
and all the efforts to keep him in power had proved unavailing.
He hoped, therefore, that Hon, Members who were inclined to
support the measure would not be the less inclined to do
so in consequence of the threat of the Prime
Minister to resign if the present measure were carried.
People might say, however, that Belg.um was a country where
the Guvernment was despotic, arid held mere power than any
Government, ever which the people had more control. tell,
what was the case with Great Britain, where the peopl • had
the greatest influence? tie would take the American Go-
vernment—a Government who were wi-e arid prudent, and
who would weigh well, not only the stork itself, but the mode
of doing it. What did Mr. Porter say of this Government ?
by that the New York canal, a work of great public import-
ance, was constructed by capital borrowed on the credit of that
Government. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that no
such outlay should take place, unless in a case of great emer-
gency ; but he would ask, when the States which he had re-
ferred to, who were wise and selfish, had executed such works,
could any one doubt fora moment but Ireland apart Croat the great
importance of the works themselves, had an especial demand
of such works? It was said that the money
on them from her present circumstances for t lel
jeobnesatruiefttiotno
'haonudt so absurdg as
the Irish landlords, but that. was
b fory hat: thequestion hea head
not to owreereseu itrheeaw objectionsord
rnbade thse mockeryNohle refutation. ;,.1;
6. Co was, that it
jec'S
to induce them to reject it. His first o
of the Government to the. proposed scheme of sufficient weight
would give a preference to some railways over others. Suppose
he admitted that, how
.wete the
ipublicsurerto ? That was,
in his opinion, no justification for the rejection of t scheme.
The next objection he matte was, that he was afield they would
only employ the able-bodied. But he would ask was that no
benefit ? If the money to be expended was to be employed
in that way, he considered that this would be a
material benefit to the labourer who was not able-bodied, for it
would leave him to be employed on works of a less laborious
character. But the Noble Lord said, that the railroads were
on the east coast, and the starvation was all on this west.
Such an objection was, in his opinion, absurd, for
who could doubt but the able bodied of Galway' and
Mayo would le sort to the east, to the north, and to the
smith, where employment was to be procured.—(Cheers)
These arguments were a mockery.—(Cheers.) For,
as his
Noble Friend beside him reminded him, why did the poor of
Ireland dock to Liverpool, and other parts of England.—
L( Co
rhd, ees rwse. )r e
s 10l tat
contingenttliere r a i lawnadysr,eminotte in theirheopin benefits,ion ottle
as
sbtloe
make them unavailing for the relief of the existing distress.
But he would ask, was
giving the people of Ireland imme-
diate employment no benefit ? Now, this system of railways,
proposed by the Noble Lord, would give immediate employ-
was adopted,
ment, and he had the most sanguine hopes that, if the scheme
the greatest benefits, and the greatest blessings
would be conferred on the Irish people.—(Cheers.)
Mr. F. T. BARING thought, th.at if the lion. and Learned
Gentleman who had just sat down had directed his attention to
the arguments of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, insmad of
dwelling on topics which were not so immediately connected
with the measure, the House would be in a better position to
judge whether these arguments could be answered. But, in-
stead of that, the Learned Gentleman declined to meet these
arguments, and made a long speech on a variety of subjects
which were not relevant. He would not follow him through
these topics, but confine himself to the state of the
finances. Now, he should like to know how the
money would be raised for this immense outlay.
It was said that it could be raised without diffi-
culty, but of this he had very great doubt, and if they
issued the Exchequer brills, the Noble Lord who informed them
last night that he was ready to assume the responsibility of
Government, might find that they would not go off se particu-
larly easy in the money market.—(Hear, hoar.) Excheqatr

bills were at present wavering on the borders, and let them take
care when these Exchequer bills should be issued they should
have to raise the interest not only on the four millions but off
their other millons.—( Hear, hear.) He must say that if that
would be a benefit to the people of England, he had very
lit t e confidence in the financial management of the Noble Lord.
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said that they were quite
sure of repayment for the advances, but when he came to that
part of the subject he glided into the advantages which would.
in a general way, be derived from public works. He would.
ask, however, if they received repayments in similar cases when
money had been advanced? If they were paid the advances on
the Kingstown railway, he would ask if they rested their argu-
ment only on that?—( Hear, hear.) The Learned Gentleman
then fell hack upon the circumstance that due supervision would
be exercised over the security that would be required on the
advances. He was afraid, however, if they did that the Lein
would not be likely to have extensive operation in Ireland. Oue
of the objects tea, to employ the labouring population. If they
gave the advances only to these lines which were likely to pay,
the consequence would be that the bad lines which ran through
the most impoverished districts, would be neglected, and the
people who lived in those districts would be unemployed.—
( Hear, hear.) The arguments in favour of the scheme rested
on two grounds. The first was, the temporary aevantage
it would confer under Vie present circumstances of leeland,
and the eceend was, the permanent advantage that would result.
But the House were informed that only 1,000,000/. out et
every 4,000,001. advanced would be paid for labour. He pre-
tested, on behalf of the people of England against giving ad--
vantage to Irish railway shareholders, by allowing them to use
for their sole advintagef the capital of the people of England.
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Stuart) contended
that employment would be given in places where the people
stood most in need of it ; but as railways did not run through
parts of a county where there was little or no trade, and where
the people were in a destitute condition, no advantage would be
given to those parts.—( Hear.) To pour in money into the east
of Ireland, without corresponding advantages to the west,
would do little good It would be useless to pour money, into
the east whilst the people in the west were starving. Then,
when a railway ran through a destitute district, the people ite
that district who stood so much in need of employment, would
not obtain employment.—( Hear' hear.) Even the Hon.
Gen leman (Mr. Stuart) had not denied that. It was true he
had employed the arguments of political economy to show that
if a certain number of persons were out of the labour market,
others would fill their places ; but instead of the destitute poor
of Ireland being employed, skilled " navvies" from England
would be employed. Any' one who had read the blue books,
which had been published, relating to the condition of
Ireland, could not fail to be of opinion that it was net
advantageous to employ men in masses, but that it was to britale
as far as possible, the work to their own doors.—( Hear, hear.)
That object would not certainly be obtained by this Bill. Thy
Bill had been represented as a great and comprehensive mese"'
sure, and the Hon. Gentleman had devoted a great part of his
to quoting authorities—Mr. Porter amongst the mum'
her—to ghow that it was entitled to come under this definitsesee
He admitted that in some instances it was advisable for the
Government, in some cases, to advance money for the
construction of great public works. In 1839 he voted for
Mr. Drummond's Bill with respect to Irish railways-(" Hear,
hear," from Lord George Bentinek )—but he never had more
difficulty in giving a vote in his life, than he did on that tie'
cation, and subsequent considerations had not removed thee
difficulty. Such undertakings as railways ought, he thought,
to be left to private and indivicual enterprise. Other countries
had followed a different course with respect to railways, and the
systems were not deficient in advantages ; none of which were
to he found in " this great and comprehensive measure." Did
Belgium advance money to railway companies? No. it
took the whole railway communication of the country into it,
own hands. But he should have objected to such S
project if it had been proposed. But the management of
railway by the Sta e possessed great advantages. In the hand°
of private persons they were monopolies,' but as in the oche"
case the Post-office would have free transit, and the people
would have the advantage of travelling at a moderate rate. be;
cause railways, in that case, would virtually be the property of
the public. The Noble Lord's measure proposed nothing 1,
the kind. There were great advantages to the proprietor o
railways, but no advantages to the public, as in Beigiuess.
After the passing of the Bill the monopoly in railways would
be the same as before. The lines would go on, but those
which did not would be handed over to the Govetnment.--'
( Loud cheers.) That unquestionably would be the result.
What be said was, deal with the pressing emergency first'
and then calmly deliberate on such a project.
That, certainly was not the time for such a measure. France,
for instance, did not advance funds to parties fee the construe'
tion of railways without securing great advantages in return.
The mails passed over the lines free of expense, but there was
no such provision here. They granted a lease for a certain
number of years, at the expiration of which they fell into the
hands of the Government, in trust for the benefit of the
public. The advantages derived from such a system were
stated to be so great, that if this country had adopted it when
railways were first constructed, the profits which they woulle
have produced would have paid the national debt.—(Hear'
hear, and cheers.) This certainly could not be accom plishe'e
by the proposition of the Noble Lord ; as it seemed
to him so deficient in advantages, that he was Nee
prised that the lion. Gentleman, the Member for Essex, (Sit
J Tyrrell), should sueport it. It was not capable to meet
the emergency of the present moment, and was wholly cite
cent in the requisites for a permanent measure altogether. e"
however, they lent 16 000,0001 out of the funds destined for
the employment of the people of England, for the ensp!er
merit of the people of Ireland, they should have some equivai
lent advantage in return. And if they followed the police°
foreign Governments, at least let them follow their prudence
also; and do not let them advance their money, not for the
purpose of meeting the emergency of the moment, but for the
purpose of adding to the strength of monopoly. and would
not accomplish the object for which it was brought forward-
-( Hear, hear. )
the.l. e'Y Rr
rescue
Lo said,f
Goverment
0 vael trhmoeungth
theythe Hon.had w
comSe to ir
extraordinary things in the conduct of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, arid his conduct on this occasion had shown this
Gietnntelsts•medan some had
more forcibly. He had travelled through various parts of Ire-
land, and witnessed the lamentable distress of the people. The
poor-law of Ireland was extremely defective, so much so that
he feared no proper machinery could be devised. He thought
that the measures proposed by her Majesty's Government—
their " potato arid kettle measure," and their soup ticket mea-
sures"—utterly :ailed in comparison to the measures of the
Noble Lord. The Noble Lord at the head of the Government had,
improperly he thou ht, made the question one of " confidence."
He did feel most anxious to ascertain what were the sentiments
which the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tarae-orth
held on this occasion, but neither he nor the late Chancellor
of the Exchequer had as yet thought proper to favour the
House and the country with their opinions. But as they had
I not that satisfaction, it might be pleasing to the country to
I know what were the opinions which the Right
nourabble Gentleman formerly held and it was po':,
Bible that the Noble Lord at the head of the Government
might asrive at a proper conclusion of what those opiniel
were, by arguing that they were now exactly the reverse 0
what they formerly were.—(Laeghter.) In March, 1639. °"a
question of a grant of money to Ireland fur the purposes 0'
railways, the Member for 'l'amworth stated that the mood
difficulty was the last which he contemplated, and that if he
opposed the adoption of the measure, he desired
that it might not be understood that the green
d
of his objection to it would be money.—( Hear')
fie
let it once be shoe n unto him that the measure would belie
Ireland, and the expense attendant would nut deter him frc::o
adopting it. But that he greatly feared that the very propo:
would expose the Government to enormous difficulty, from I.f,
interest or the proprietors of the estates contiguous to the di a
ferent lines. In the county of Essexef he sum of eixty thougee
had been expended in law proceedings in the Colchester an
Harwich line, which was only twenty miles long. It was
monstioss that such a suns should be thus lost. He would b
every Member in the box to prove the great danger sebce,
arises from Weenie these kind of speculations to private enter,
prise. Any person coming down to the blouse, about feed
o'clock, would find the street& throngsd with legal men ee
their blue bags. He firmly believed that two-thirds of thee,
jewellery in London ea• purchased by members of the le7V
profession.—( Great laughter.)
Mr. DILLON BROWNE said he was not influenced iU
the vote which he was about to give by the statement of any
threat threat on the part of the Government ; in fact, he believed
that no threat was really held out. He was not prepared to
support the proposition of the Noble Lord the Member for
Lynn, because he conceived by such a vote he would be de-
claring a confidence in the Noble Lord,and a want of confide";
in her Majesty's Ministers. Under no circumstances WTI,
d
he be prepared to support the policy of the Noble
Lord until he found out from him what war
his intentions respecting the political amelioration
Ireland. He could not forget that the party of which the
Noble Lord was the powerful and intelligent leader, for cent
tutees had been the consistent opponents of civil and religious
liberty. He could not forget that they had been the On'
sistent supporters of monopoly, both as regarded the coramerci
ce 1 and poetical interests of the country; and until he lee
heard the distinct declaration of the Noble Lord as to ons;
would be his policy, he was not prepared to give him a eieete-
that would have the effect of bringing him into office. Ile
could not forget that he opposed the Catholic Erelfjci
ciliation Act—(Cries of " No, no.")—that he opPd7
the Reform Bill.—(Cries of "No, no.") His party. ie.--
that he opposed any settlement of the Church euestion free
land -and his party were opposed to the present settlement cf
the Church question its Ireland. He most cordially declared
that he would give his vote to the Member for Lynn if he de;
clared to him what policy be was prepared to pursue in regal*"
to the franchise, or to give an increased representation to Ire-
land. He desired to know what policy he would adopt re-
specting an appropriation of the surplus revenue of the
Church •in Ireland to secular purposes, and alt©
with regard to a measure shortly to be brought before
the House respecting waste lands in Ireland—a measure which,
he looked upon as one calculated to infuse a new element in the
social system of that country. tie consinered that it would
create a body of independent yeomen in the country. He con-
sidered that the Noble Member for Lynn's measure was more
calculated to benefit the landed interest than the people.
insoAntpounti
vriy,dilet
sirfaon onuokii
t:hers
,eluascsa;
sihhi od,kaenwr
susrlys;
rural Population
tusdepumti:o,
por erct recommend
systemoe fri dI
Ireland
efor
lan himselftdh ;e to
carteti
dha
creation
popularoen couldof
e
oratsintgliethepremseenasturGeovoefrnthmeent
otti
Lord opposite. He entertained doubts of the sympathies
for,
or the deep interest taken in, the condition of the peasantryeri
Ireland, by either the Noble Lord or his party ; and before be
could give his support to the Noble Lord's Bill'
The
people must have some guarantee upon that point.
people of Ireland required that guarantee, and if the
Noble Lord wished to Garry this Bill, or make hie',
self popular in Ireland, he must prove that lie was actuated
by no selfish motives. There was no unanimity in the Nobtif.
Lord's party upon the subject of supporting or assisting
tenant in possession who was desirous of improvi
supported
a system which characterised the Government in
London and engendered absenteeism, and if the Noble Ler
intended to perpetuate that system, he must make land reset";
sible for the maintenance of its own poor.—(Hear, hearg
Representing, as he did, a large constituency in Ireleedl
had felt it to be his duty thus frankly to express his views
ct
upon the measure now before the House, and upon the sub)!
of Ireland generally, rather than to give a silent vote upon this
occasion. Ile attributed the want of energy and improved
n
ment in Ireland to misgovernment and class legislation, e,'
until these abusive systems were abandoned, Ireland would tiel`c
continue to be a burden to this country.—( Hear, hear. ) Ht
must, however, thank the Noble Lord fur the generoes spiri
he had displayed towards Ireland. He thought it was well cal]
culated to improve the feeling in Ireland towards England, an
:
while he disapproved of his measure he could not forget his noe
statement, that he would stake his head upon the block for the
loyalty of the Irish if they were treated with justice, nor l
truthful statement that the Irish people would spill the last
drop of their blood in defence of this country were they prO"
perly treated and properly legislated for.—( ]seer, hear. )
Lord BERNARD should give his vote in favour of the Noble
Lord's measure, because he considered it was highly calcite
lated to meet the present emergency. He did not believe
that
it was liable to the objections that had been urged against it,
nor did he believe that it would enhance the value of any
railway which did not merit, or which was not
intrinsically valuable in itself. He confidently expected that
before any money were advanced to a railway under this Bill'
its merits arid features would be carefully scrutinised, and he
therefore could not understand how the measure could gieeee
stability to wild and bad schemes without conferring any benefit
wouldupon the good. It had been said that these railways wouldno go though thesediericto krolfuld which PIM reVircu

emaeims
hem take
ey should
rs but orr
.at if that
had very
ble Lord.
sere quit*
ne to that
rh would,
de would!
axes when
vanees on
ieir argu-
entleman
ion would
3 on the
the
and. Our

If they
V to pay,
through

such ti
Dent 01
the hart&
the °thee
he peophr
rate, b e;
•uperty
lothing
rietcr ei
Be/glare.
Sys vrcalg
but those
e result•
!Ley first,
project•
France,

construe.
return.
there Was
a certain
1 into the
it of the
tem were
it when
ey would
—( Hear,
plished
seerura
eras fur-
lea, (Si°,
to meet
olly defi-
her. If'
stincd for
ern 011-
e
policy of
prudence
t for the
at for the
id would
forward.

•man had
sed some
or of the'
sown this
is of ho-
le. The
so that
,thought
•nment—

s more
people.
popular
in of a
e could
nt bad
Noble
es or,
itry 0(
'ore he