The Sun.
London, England, 1841-05-19 00:00:00

THE SUN, _LONIION, WEDNESDAY, MAY 19, le4l.

ment Commissioner, as to the state of the poor
in Ireland, in which the Commissioner said tint
he had heard the question asked among them,
which was the most contrary to the will of
God; to extinguish the life of their children,
before they had arrived at the knowledge of good and
evil, or to give a nominal consent to their existence, end
to sec that for them the earth had not brought forth its
increase. He (Mr. Villiers) wished to inquire, when
we were boasting of the value of our possessions, of
what value were they to these unfortunate people ?
(Hear, hear.) We called upon them for taxes for the
protection of our possessions in the East and West
Indies ; but he wished to know of what advantage were
they to a people who were starving ? Of what advantage
were they to the poor, when if it was proposed to ex-
tend to them some of the comforts they produced, they
were told that they could not enjoy them because it was
essential to protect and maintain monopolies ?—(Hear.)
In contrasting the condition of the slaves with those
who suffered so much, he would refer the House to the
works of a writer who possessed great experience of the
state of the working classes, and whose writings con-
tained much truth, most powerfully stated—he meant
Cobbett, who said, " Poverty, after all, is the great
badge of slavery ; weary bones and rags are the true
marks of real slavery. What is the object of Govern-
ment but to cause men to live happily, which cannot be
without a sufficiency of food and raiment ? There
can be no morality, no virtue, no sincerity,
among
.people who are continually pining for want,
and it is cruel in an extreme degree to punish them for
crimes that are not theirs, but are brought about by their
all-controlling necessities." It might be said that these
were the opinions of a democrat, and that they were not
worthy of attention, but he should read the opinion of a
high Tory, Mr. Southey—(Cheers)—who said that we
had arrived at a state in which the inequality of con-
ditions was intolerable, and that, if a remedy were not
applied, a war between the poor and the rich was in-
evitable.—(Cheers.) What an increase of misery had
taken place since Mr. Southey wrote this !—(Cheers.)
He (Mr. Villiers) had made no exaggerated statement of
the condition of the people. He should be happy to hear
it proved they were not so miserable—(Hear, hear)—
that it was not owing to the state of trade that they were
so, and that the state of trade was not 'owing to the re-
strictions on our commerce. As he stated last year,
the manufacturers asserted that all the misery was owing
to their not-being allowed to exchange their produce with
other countries—that their warehouses were bursting
with food sent from America and other countries, and
that they were ready to take that corn for goods already
sent to America and those other countries.—(Cheers.)
They said that if they were allowed to do this they were
ready to execute further orders for the same kind of food.
—(Cheers.) He hoped they were going to a division.—
(Cheers.) He hoped to a dissolution.—(Great cheering
from both sides.) He hoped the names of the majority
would appear to-morrow.—(Renewed cheering.) He did
not say that he wished Hon. Gentlemen opposite to be
marked, but he wished that the people at large should
have an opportunity of seeing what were the constituen-
cies those Gentlemen represented.—(Loud cheers.)
The people complained that they now represented
sinister and sectional interests. On the contrary
it was insisted that the people were virtually
represented, and that they had influence over
the electors, who were only their trustees.—(Hear, hear.)
He said, then, if ever there was an occasion when the
people ought to judge of the conduct of existing consti-
tuencies, this was the occasion.—(Hear, hear.) Nobody
was less desirous than he of disturbing the Con-
stitution of this country, but those who had the
elective franchise should see that justice was done to all
classes alike.—(Cheers.) And it was coming to this,
that if the House did not do justice to the people, the
people would do justice to themselves.—(Much cheering
from both sides of the House.) The question before the
House had been treated as if it were whether one set of
men should take office instead of another ; but nothing
had been said from the other side as to the good which
they would do for the people.—(Cheers and laughter.)
The present Ministers proposed those excellent
measures ; and, before he consented to give his
vote for another set of men, he must at least
have some intimation that they meant to do some-
thing better. In the course of the debate he had heard
nothing of the kind from gentlemen opposite.—(Cheers,
and laughter.) He had heard one say that no distress
existed—(Hear, hear)—another that those measures
would increase it, and another that it would be best
cured by leaving it to itself.—(Cheers.) It struck him
that there were now three parties in the State—one of
which thought that no justice should be done to the
people—(Cheers)—another which admitted that justice
was not done to them, but that it ought to be done, and
that it could be done under the present Constitution.—
(Cheers.) The third party consisted of those who were
hourly increasing in numbers and strength, and who
thought that justice was not done and would not be done
without a change in the Constitution.—(Hear. hear,
and cheers.) At the head of the second party he con-
sidered that the Noble Lord had placed himself. He
wished to preserve the constitution and to do justice to
the people. In advocating the common weal against the
interests of a class, he had assumed a post that became
his name and disposition.—(Cheers.) He had done so
before and he had succeeded—he would do so again, he
was was satisfied, for he would go forward earnestly and
with spirit becoming the occasion.--(Cheers.) He would
not be daunted by the reproaches of those who opposed
themselves to the interest of the community.—(Hear,
hear.) Nor would he heed the silly twaddle that he
was causing dissensiod amongst different classes of so-
ciety by the reforms he proposed. That was not the
fault of those who assailed unrighteous laws like these.
—(Hear, hear.) It was one of the cursed consequences
of such laws that they did set one class against the
other, and required a fearful struggle to obtain their
repeal.—(Cheers.) That was an argument for tyranny
at all times, and of every kind ; that was as good in
1641 as it is in 1841. That did not influence those who
resisted the encroachments of the Crown at that time,
when the question was like the present one, unjust taxa-
tion.—(Cheers.) He would not believe that the commer-
cial and industrious classes would prove themselves de-

generate sons of those who had established liberty in
this country, and sown the seeds of liberty in the other
hemisphere ; and the Noble Lord, he was sure, would
not suffer himself to be reproached with having with-
held from them an opportunity of fully and fairly ex-
pressing their opinion on the subject.—(Cheers.) The
Hon. Gentleman sat down amidst much cheering.,
Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL would not be sorry
that the debate should continue for seven nights upon so
important a question—that it should be understood in
all its bearings, but for the injury which had been done
to the most important interests of the country by the
suspense in which they had been kept.—(Loud cheers
from the Tories.) The Ministers were to blame for not
having used their influence in preventing the time of the
House from being so much occupied.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
With respect to the calculations of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer as to the produce of the sugar duties, he had
no doubt they would be realised, if the quantity of sugar
from the colonies alone would yield the anticipated re-
venue. But the effect of the measure would be to en-

courage in foreign countries the horrid and inhuman
practice of slavery, which at so much expense we had
suppressed in our own possessions.—(Hear, hear.)
But, even if the measure were in itself advisable, it ap-
peared to him•to have been brought forward at a most
improper moment. Indeed, he could only look upon it
as a party expedient, tending needlessly to agitate the
country ' • for Ministers could not hope to carry out their
policy. On the timber question the feeling of the people
of Canada was opposed to them, and the people of that
country could not be denied their just claims upon that
subject. With respect to the Corn-laws, he begged
leave to say,. that the duty ought naturally to vary with
the price of corn in any sound system of.protective
policy ; and that was the opinion of Mr. Canning: What
did the Hon. Member for Marylebone (Sir B. Hall). say
last night ? He said that he supported the Ministerial
measure, becouse it would lead, in his opinion, to a total
abolition of all protecting duties. That. was the motive
which actuated many of the Ministerial supporters, The
Hos, Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. Villiers), who
was not then present, had made some severe comments
on the landed interests in regard to that subject, and he
(Sir E. Knatchbull) thought it was unfair of the Hon.
Member, after the course he had taken in his speech, to
retire from the House before an answer could be given to
it. That Hon. Member had entered into details showing
the sufferings of a large portion of the labouring classes ;
but Hon. Gentlemen on that (the Opposition) side of the
House were not less anxious to _ alleviate those suffer-

ings than the Hon. Member for Wolverhampton or
any of his party. A repeal of the Corn-laws could not
materially benefit the labouring classes, for if it
diminished the price of corn it would equally
diminish the rate of wages, and would place
the .labourer in no better condition than at present.
The .army, the navy, and all the public establish-
ments would certainly reduce their expenses in propor-
tion as the price of corn might fall ; and he had no
doubt but private individuals would imitate the. ex-
ample. He was sure that it those laws were repealed
this country would one day have reason to regret a
Course of proceeding which left her at the
.mercy of
foreign nations for her supply of food. It had been com-
plained of by the ,Bight Hon.. the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer that the Hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition
Benches had not explained the- course which they would

recommend under the present circumstances of the
look countryfer ; b a
dvui
et
eh
toe had never
mheard‘vhu thatt a Ministry
hey
habitually
ho udl
dif-
fered. It was the business of a Ministry alone to advise the
Crown, and Parliament as to the policy which it would be
fuel stet
et to adopteexpe ,
iaenntlt.
_t o(
riperaorp:f)rueneld t
ht he e
Ministerialm e asur measures
hweint
ei chhe s
.i)t
He did not, however, despair of the fortunes of his country.
He placed the most implicit reliance on the spirit, the
ind,guleat, and the patriotism of the people. of England.—
(erkeer.; on both sides of the House.) He knew that
there were in this country men-of sound sense ; and he
'would repeat that he did therefore confidently hope in
the maintenance. of our prosperity. 'Ho believed that
with a strong and efficient Government they would be
enabled to uphold the &pity, promote the welfare, and
seeure the happiness of all classes of her Majesty's sub-
jeCtS.7-(Cheers.) .
~ , . .
Ur. CHARLES BULLER had never in the course
of his life felt so keen a disappointment in listening to
- any speech ,in that House as he had in listening, to
ethleesespeete.chs
hioafdtdesshreßßaronet, Right Hon. in which, at the
that information of whheichfi,nninly
given them some hope.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) lie
and-ajseuratsuntoeneisth. eelthe
ed
course of
eniti,eldiethheLni
must confess, always listening with the greatest de-
light to the speeches of the night Hon: Baronet, he 1
when,the l House. orda2t9heh aying
previousmoved
he should, when called upon to address the House in .its
se(cf:tit)rliet.eesßttwi
Bugler's)
ie,.ilmevreh,momentseso)rfse tifhd,
geweineanoi
tf‘i
1-
leeatmdhh
ecisstipr;ioivkgoi
:hue:,
House;
jo he
doasn wishedh .iiso oit
tit,
llhdoti nt
rise
speakt
then,l iegvot
oetrin:itrail evening,
the
dress . it.-..-.(Cheers and laughter.) -. He supposed the
Right gen. garonet,not having met with any single
..an-

;

tagonist worthy :rf.ins powers, had determined to reply to
twelve gentlemenitt once, and to spit all of them on his
lance.—(Cheers and laughter.) He was more willing
to suppose that than to give credence to a rumour
that the Right Honourable Gentleman had remained
silent tinder coercion—(Cheers and laughter ; " Oh,
no," from Sir E. Knatehhull ; and renewed laughter)
—that he had been induced to refrain, least he
should make some inopportune disclesures.—(Cheers and
laughter.) The Right Hon. Baronet, in the course of
his s2eech, had said the time was now come when it
would be right for them to speak out.—(Cheers.) The
countenances of Gentlemen on his (Mr. Buller's) side of
-the House had, at the commencement, been gilded with
the. expression of hope ; the hungry sheep had looked
up, but they had not been fed.—(Cheers and laughter.)
The countenances of the Right Hon. Baronet's paulo post
futuritm colleagues--(A laugh)—had fallen in terror at
the thought of the imprudent revelation which they
dreaded.—(Cheers and laughter.)—But neither the hope
nor the terror was destined to have long endurance.
The Bight llon. Gentlemen had said that the time was now
arrived when gentlemen opposite should speak out as to what
they thought of certain doctrines which had been laid down
by the Hon. Member for Wolverhampton. He had called
upon them to say what they thought, not what they would do.
On that point he supposed the Right Hon. Baronet was satis-
fied with the revelations of the Budget. —( Cheers and laughter. )
The Right Hon. Baronet had said that he should confine his
observations within a narrow compass and certainly
if by a narrow compass he meant a compass quite
outside the question in debate, lie had done so, for not
once in the course of his speech had he alluded to the sugar
duties. He (Mr. Buller) should not follow the Right Hon.
Gentleman through all the topics which he had
introduced into his speech. He hoped they would
have another opportunity afforded them when they
might discuss with more propriety, according to the rules of
House, the question of the Corn-laws—(Loud Ministerial
cheering)—and when the Right Hon. Baronet would have
an opportunity of describing the terrible state to which the
country would be reduced, by becoming a series of smiling
pastures studded with towns, and the horrors which might be
expected to overwhelm us when war should become unknown.
—( Cheers and laughter.) The Right lion. Baronet had
taunted :41embers on his side of the House with their inconsis-
tency. He wondered how the Right lion. Gentleman could
talk of inconsistency. He wondered that when his lips at-
tempted to utter that word they did not reuse to form the
syllables, and come out with the words " mall tax" instead.
The Right Hon. Gentleman had complained of the spirit of de-
ception in which these measures had been brought forward.
In fact, his opinions might be summed up in his old motto
" Nusquarn: tuts fides."—(Loud cheers and laughter.) It was
not his intention to depart from the principle which had been
observed by the House by going minutely into the subject be.
fore it.—(Cheers.) The arguments in support of the propo-
sition of her Majesty's Government were so exceedingly special
es hardly to allierd matter for a very lengthened debate, and,
above all, the resolution of the Noble Lord not to take any
slave produce, seemed to him to be so completely the essence of
the most refined fanaticism, that he could not seriously discuss
it. The principle was worth nothing unless it was consistently
acted up to, and to realise it we must confine ourselves rigidly
to the use of articles the produce of free labour. Now, he
could not seriously discuss this question, because,
he believed that the supporters of the Noble Lord's resolution
did not value their consistency on that point as much as they
did a pinch of snuff.—(Cheers and laughter.) The arguments
of those who supported the sugar monopolies, were the extra-
vagant and absolute arguments:, by which a protective trade
had always been defended, and on this occasion they had even
been carried higher, for it had been contended that we were
bound to maintain those high duties, not only for the purpose
of maintaining but of creating a protective trade, for what else
were the arguments brought forward on the subject of East
India sugar ?—( Cheers.) At any rate that was not an esta-
blished or ancient trade—that was not a vested interest. Until
very recently our laws had discouragedthe preductionofsugar in
that country, but now the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite came
forward with a poetical description of the valley of the Ganges,
and said that it ought. to be devoted to the cultivation of sugar,
and that for that purpose the sugar trade should protected!
For whose benefit he would ask ?—for that of some great capi-
talist, perhaps, who might be induced to divert his capital
from the West to the East Indies; but would any one tell him
that it would be for the advantage of the poor native of Hin-
dostan that he should be induced to devert his industry solely
to the purpose of raising sugar fur the English market ?
It would be the greatest curse that could be inflicted upon
the natives of India to tempt them to raise sugar, not for the
market of the world, where they might improve by meeting
with competition, but for the protected and confined market
of the mother country, thus making their dependant upon
every fluctuation in our commercial poliey.—( Cheers. ) We
haareflected many injuries upon them ; we had needlessly in-
terfered with their prejudices; we had ground them down with
taxation, we had destroyed their manufactures of cotton and
muslin, but there were one curse greater than all whioh we
might inflict upon them, and that Was in fostering an artificial
and protected industry.—(Cheers.) Those who argued in
support of the West Indian monopoly, said that after all
monopoly was the best way. to support lowness of price ;
that after an indefinite time, if they were sufficiently
protected in the West Indies would furnish an ample supply of
sugar. But that was not the high argument which was put
forward that they should foster the growth of sugar in the
West Indies, in o.der to prevent the production of sugar by
slave labour. Now, no man, he thought, could be chimerical
enough to suppose that by refusing the sugar of the Brazils,
they should put an end to slavery in that country. The only
reasonable ground advanced in support of the monopoly, was
that it was desirable to continue it to give the experiment of
emancipation fair play. That was a most dangerous policy,
because it was leaving the success of that experiment upon a
result which must disappoint them. When they freed the
slavesethereeult ought to have been foreseenethat the industry of
the blacks would be transferred from exportable products to
articles of consumption. It was not to be expected but that
in Jamaica, when the old sugar lands, were worn out, and
vrhen there were plenty of other lands, the blacks should take
to the cultivation of other products, and the exports of super
should, consequently, decrease. In Antigua and Barbadoes,
where there were no waste lands and plenty of labour, the. ex-,
ports had not diminished; while in Demerara, Berbice,
Guiana, and Trinidad, where the lands were not worn out, tha
proprietors expressed themselves as not fearing the competi-
tion of the Brazilsif they could get a supply of labour. Mr.
Burnley, in Trinidad, had said at a public meeting in that
island, that if they would remove all restrictions, he would be
ready to enter into a competition with the whole world; but
that gentleman had net slumbered under the tree of protec-
tion, but immediately upon the emancipation had taken mea-
sures to procure a supply of free labour. But it was not, after
all, on these special grounds that the question was to be
argued ; it was not even on the ground of revenue, but it was
on the necessity of adopting such principles of free trade as
should not only maintain the existing markets but open up
new ones to the great export trade of this country. When
gentlemen talked so lightly of our foreign markets did they re-
member what it was that enabled us to maintain a more vast
population and a greater extent of comparative comfort than
any country in Europe? It was our export trade.—(Hear,
hear.) Between 1811 and 1821 the population of this
country had increased by 875,000 families, of these 65,000
Only had been added to the agricultural class. Be-
tween 1821 and 1831, while the agricultural class had
actually decreased in numbers, the population of the country
had increased by 475,000 families, so that altogether there
were upwards of 500,000 families, containing about two mil-
lions and a half of human beings, depending upon other em-
ployment than agriculture. Now, how could they be main-
tained except by manufacturing for the export trade -(Loud
cheering)—and if they distroyed existing markets, and failed
to raise up new ones, our population must beCome the most
beggarly in the world. Our trade with the Brazils, and the
United States were now in jeopardy. Both countries, in the
revision of this tariff, threaten retaliatory measures. Under
these circumstances, it was the duty of the Governmen to tell
the House they could not keep up the present system, but must
have free trade, that the people might live. A great deal had
been said about the present being an inconvenient time. lie
had ever found that the time proposed was ever the most in-
convenient to those who had to give up their privilege.—
( Cheers and laughter.) But he would ask them if last year,
when sugar was dear, the measure had been proposed they is ould
not have called it precipitate; and with regard to the Corn-laws
if the abolition had been proposed during a moment of fa-
mine, then they would have been swept away ; but without
any regard to existing interests, without even the protection
at which Hon. Genvlemen opposite affect to sneer. Gen-
tlemen opposite affect to sneer at what they called the agita-
tion of the Corn-law question. For himself he could only
say that the effects produced by the Government proposition
had been greater than he had anticipated. But they should
recollect that it wax the nature of' such excitement to go on in -
creasing.—( Cheers.) He trembled for the consequences if
they were allowed to go on. But the sin of maintaining the ex-
citement rested not upon those who had brought for-
ward the question to relieve the distresses, and to in-
crease the resources of the country, but upon those
who refused to co-operate wi•li them, who put an extinguisher
upon the measures proposed to alleviate the troubles of the
country, and who defended a monopoly which pressed with
such horrible effect upon the great mass of their countrymen.
—(Cheers.) They had not succeeded in eliciting from Gen •
tlernen opposite the course they would pursue; they had not
stated whether they would maintain all existing monopolies, or
whether, which, judging from the cautious plan they had pur-
sued, might be the case, as it had been heretofore, arid they had
opposed as an Opposition those concessions which they would
grant when in power.—(Clvgrs.) He hoped that so unworthy
a course would not again be adopted—(Loud cheers)—and he
hoped that Hon. Gentleman having attempted to displace the
Government, would let the country ace on what grounds they
were proceeding, and on what principles they. intended to con-
duct the Government, if, unfortunately, they should obtain it.
There was one thing in the power of the Gevernment, and he
trusted that they would attain that end. They might force
the Gentlemen opposites to say what they intended to do, if
not by words, by their votes. They could only prove their
sincerity in the propositions they had laid before the House
by the perseverance and determination which they showed in
carrying them out. Whatever imputation might be thrown
upon their motives, and abundant imputations were always
thrown out by those who wire in the expectation of succeed-
ing to office, but the country would not heed them. -The peo-
ple would see that the Government was engaged in a great
popular cause, which would justify a great and even unusual
struggle. Let them force the lion. Gentlemen opposite to
state whether, if they would not grant cheap sugar.
would they grant cheap timber—( hear, hear)—and
b
would they grant cheap coffee;ut, above all, force them to
if neither of those,
say whether, they would
grant them cheap bread.—( Loud cheers.) Perhaps in the
course of that discussion they
might extract
,from them, or it
might be let fall inadvertently, how it was that they intended to
provide for the national expenditure, and if they refused to
make up the deficiency by diminishing the burdens of the
people, let them at least explain• what new burdens they in-
tended to place upon the country.—( Cheers. ) He could
not have any doubt of what the issueof the stenggle would be.
He was old enough to remember when the advocates of a ma.--
sure were in a small mince ity in on' year, which measures was
carried by acelarnat ioti in the following, but he bad never seen
a permanent failure of any popular cause, when taken up by
any great party in that Howe. The advocates for the repeal of
these duties never battled under better auspices than now.
—( Loud cheers ) They had on their side the unanimous,
opinion of every writer and thinker on the subject.
—(Cheers, and counter
.cheers.) Ho repeated, of every
writer and thinker of any eminence on the subject ; but above
all, they had on their side the wants and urgent necessities of
the people—their sense of justice, their revolting sense of the
injustice which had been committed upon them in being so
heavily taxed for maintaining the luxuries of the aristocracy.
Those fighting under a standard like that, were sure to con-
quer.—(Loud cheers.)
Sir ROBERT PEEL—Mr. Speaker, this, Sir, is not the
first time that I have had occasion to feel the extreme ember-
ia.snient of being called upon to address the House when
every argument has been exhausted, and tchen the inge-
nuity 'of those who have preceded me had availed them-
selves of ever topic that Could • pressed into :the dis-
cussion ; and I would have been perfectly, content to re-
linquish any claim that I may have on the attention •of
the House, but that. I feel that the House must see that
I have no alternative than to prefer that claim—that I should
not permit this debate to close without giving an expression of
my sentiments.--(Loud cheers.) And as I feel that I have rus,
alternative left but to address the Houses I trust that, withOt, 4

allowing party feelings to interfere, the House Will grant me' a •
patient hearing.—, (Cheers.) Sir, I shall first address myself
te that which is the proper subject of debate on this occasion,
viz., the question which is involved in the resolution of my
Noble Friend. Sir, that resolution embodies an opinion on
the part of this House that, considering the sacrifices which
you have made for the abolition of the slave trade and slavery,
we ought not to sanction the proposal for introducing into the
markets of the United Kingdom sugar the produce of slave
labour. And, Sir, after all the reflection which I have given
to the subject, and which it so eminently &Mends, my opinion
remains the same, that it would not be for the interest
or the honour of this country—(Loud cheers)—to open
our ports to sugar, the produce of slaves. Sir, I -shall give
my vote on this abstract question apart from any other consi-
deration. If upon this occasion I heard nothing of the Con-
laws—had nothing been said respecting the timber duties, I
should have been prepared—without reference to any Other con-
sidei ation—l should have been prepared, Sir, earnestly to sup-
port the resolution of my Noble Friend. Ido not support it
upon the assumption that there is an overbearing moral oblieas
lion which compels us to abstain from the consumption of
the production of slaves. lam not one of those who con-
sider that the Right Hon. Gentleman opeosite can be charged
with any dereliction of principle in bringing forward this mea-
sure. I, Sir, have myself voted for a reduction of the duties
upon articles the produce of slaves. I have contended for a re-
duction on the duty on cotton, for the purpose of encouraging
the "industry of this country.—(Loud cheers.) Only last
year I supported the Right Hon. Gentleman in the attempt
to get rid of an absurd system, by which coffee, the produce
of certain slave States, was dmitted into this country at a
lower duty,, in consequence of its having been trans-shipped at
the Cape ; and it was from no opposition that I offered to that
measure, that it was not proceeded with. Ido believe, Sir,
that we must combine with the considerations of a moral na-
ture, prudential considerations of a powerful nature. Fur in-
stance, Sir, I am not at liberty to peril the manufacturing in-
dustry, and throw hundreds of thousands out of employ, from
a consc.ontiou= scruple that the produce of slave-labour should
not, under any circumstances, be admitted. Such large pru-
dential considerations, combined with the moral considerations
belonging to the question, are fairly within the cognizance of
legislasion. lam perfectly willing
i to admit that those pru-
dential considerations must enter into this discussion; that
we must look and inquire vhether its advantages or its
disadvantages most preponderate. Those considerations
I have maturely weighed, and my mind has been male up in
favour of the resolution of my Noble Friend—my mind ha=
been made up upon a consideration of the state of the West
Indies, and the progress which that great and important ex-
periment, upon which we have lately entered, has made. Ido
not ask you to continue the exclusion of other sugars
for the purpose of supporting any individual interests.
—( Hear, hear.) I admit that your liberality towards
the West Indians has been so great, that if their mete personal
interests were concerned you would have a right to ask them
to make some sacrifice for the public advantage. Sir, I look
at the moral and social condition of that part of the empire in
which we have made the greatest and must arduous, and I am
happy to say, so tar as it has gone, the most successful experi-
ment ever made in civilised-society—(Cheers)—and I cannot
bring myself to take a step which might decide for ever that
sugar cannot be produced by free labour in our West India co-
lonies. The Hon. Member for Liskeard said, "If sugar can-
not be grown in the old islands, let it be cultivated in Berbice
and Demerara." Now I will ask the House is that the way in
which to look at the interests of a great colony like Jamaica?—
(Loud cheers.) With what fairness can we say to the white
inhabitants of that country that it is necessary for the moral
improvement of the slaves whom we have emancipated that
you should be put to large expenses ? You must have a
large new police establishment—you must provide a large
Church Establishment, and you must provide the means of
education. How can we hold that language to them, and at
the same time time say that it is to us a matter of indiffer-
ence whether sugar can be produced in Jamaica or not ? Is
this, Sir, to be the result of this great, this gloried, experi-
ment? Is this, Sir, to be the example by which we are to
persuade other countries to remit their claims on slavery ?
—that in the greatest colony which England possesses, the re-
sult of that experiment has been the total expulsion of the
white inhabitants—the destruction of their capital, the posses-
sion of their country by the negroes, who are contented with
the mere agricultural produce of the land, and that trade with
England has totally ceased, and that is the happy condition in
which emancipation has resulted.—(Loud cheers,) And yet,
says the Hon. Member for Liskeard, there is not a writer of
authority, or a thinker upon the subject, who has not supported
this view, and one of the witnesses whom he cited, and whom
he justly stated to be a man of high character,
was Mr. Burnley. Now it is very odd that I am prepared
with a refutation of all the arguments of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, from the mouth of Mr. Burnley himself.
I have here a pamphlet, in which Mr. Burnley says, " Without
the power of combining labour and increasing it, before 1840
all the capital hitherto combined by slavery must perish ;" and
he further insists upon the necessity of extensive emigration,
without which he feared that the great experiment might be
disastrous ; and, if so, it would create an impression
throughout the world against emancipation, which no subse-
quent efforts would be able to coumteract. That is -Mr. Burn-
ley. But, Sir, I have here another authority. A few days
ago I had an interview with three gentlemen of high standing
in the commercial world. and of great ability ; they waited
upon me as a deputation from the Chamber of Commerce of
Manchester, in order to discuss this question. Of course I
told them that I must reserve any expression of my feeling
until I was in my place in this House, but I listened to them
with great attention. At the conclusion of the interview they
asked me to read a pamphlet, and they informed me that if I
would only do so with attention they had no doubt that even I
would become a convert. Of course, hearing that from such high
authority, I commenced my task with some anxiety ; but as it
was written by a gentleman stated to me to be of high autho-
rity upon the question of slavery, and as it was pressed upon
me by a gentleman of the very ~highest character, . and, as I
found in our interview, a gentleman of the greatest intelligence
and ability, I mean Mr. Ashworth, I did so. The pamphlet,
I found, was the production of Mr. William Greg. At first
I was inclined to believe that it was the production of the Hon.
Member for Manchester; but I am informed that it is the
work of his brother. At the end of the pamphlet he says,
1, the planters had no right to demand that the nation should
endure the payment of the present enormous prices for the pro-
duce of our colonies." He also is well a,quainted with our
Brazilian trade, and is a strong advocate for its being main-
tained. Yet, this chosen champion of the Chamber of Corn-
merce at Manchester, a man of enlarged and- enlightened
views, comes to this conclusion, that without a large emigration-
of labourers into our colonies the capital there employed in the
sugar cultivation would be destroyed, for the white inhabitants
would carry what of their capital remained to other parts, and
his words are, that "in such a case emancipation will then
have signally failed." "If ever the black population shall be-
come squatters on waste lands, or cultivators merely for
subsistence, then slavery and the slave trade will have re-
ceived the last encouragement which can be given to it."
The lion. Gentleman the. Deputy of the Chamber of Com-
merce foresaw that I should he convinced that their panegyric
upon their selected champion was not just, he foresaw, the argu-
ment which has been made use of in this debate, he foresaw
the argument that would-be used—" you consume tobacco and
you consume coffee"—arid he says " it may be ureed against
you, how can you conscientioissly permit the admission of slave-
grown sugar on the ground that-it would encourage slavery and
the slave-trade, when you receive into your ports, without im-
pediment, slave-grown cotton." He foresaw that his answer
to the objection is rather smart than sound—(Loud cheers).—
and its inapplicability will be obvious in a few mo-
ments.. I will not give you the whole :of ' his rea-
soning. He sums it up in a short sentence—" In a
word, the country is not called upon to exclude slave-grown
cotton, because it never has been excluded, and because of its
continued admission." (Here some observation was made in
an under tone from the Liberal benches.) You may not be a
member of theShamber of Commerce of Manchester ; but re-
collect the allifnber of Commerce are all adVocates for free
trade, the men who are agitating against the Corn-laws—they
asked me to read this pamphlet, and told me that they would
abide by the decision to which I came upon reading it.—
(Cheers from the Tory benches ) He says, " This country
is not called upon to exclude cotton.—this country is called
upon to exclude slave-grown sugar, because it has always been
excluded, and because its admission now would be the greatest
possible additional stimulus to slavery and the slave trade which
England for thirty years has been lavishing all her efforts to
abolish."—(Cheers.) And the conclusion of his pamphlet is
this. He says, " I think we have now clearly made out all the
propositions. The only method. of abolishing the slave trade
is by destroying the demand for slaves. This object can only
be attained, and may certainly be attained, by establishing,
through the prosperity of our West Indian colonies, the supe-
rior cheapness of frre labour, and that the prosperity will be
ensured and can only be ensured by extensive and systematic
immigration, and by a temporary contieuanee of the present ilis-
criminat ing duties on sugar."—( Cheers from the Tory benches. )
Lest the lion. Gentleman did not hear me, I will repeat
that " And by the temporary continuance of the present dis-
criminating antics on sugar."—(Loud•cheers. ) Now this is
not She first time that I have been indebted for an argument to
the ChaMber of Commerce of Manchester.—(Hear, hear.) I
have read the pamphlet which the advocates of free trade
placed in my hands. The result of the reading of that pam-
phlet is, great respect for the abilities of the author, and a
confirmation of my previous impressions in favour of the con-
tinuance of the present discriminative duties.--( Cheers.) At
the same time Icannot conceal f •orn myself the fact that there
has been, in consequence of the abolition of slavery, a great di-
minution of the productions of sugar from the %Vest Indies,
and if I could look to no other source of sul•ply, I believe the
pressure would be so sceere, that you could not maintain this

monopoly of the West Indies.—(Near, hear.) -If you could
only look to an annual produce of 115,000 tons of
auger, I think you could not maintain the protection.
But I look to that country which gives us hope of future pros-
perity ; I look to India, as affording a check upon extrav2gant
prices, and I have a competent hope that if you permit the ex-
periment to be fully made; the West Indies, the Mauritius, and.
the East Indies will afford you a supply which shall secure the
importati in of sugar at a moderate price. The Chancellor of
the Exchequer referred with some satisfaction,,only a satisfac-
tion, lam sure, as confirming an argument of his, to a sud-
den increase which had taken place in the price of sugar. Now,
I think the Hon. Gentleman will find that, subsequent to the
day on which he spoke, there has been, ft); some weeks past, a
progressive reduction in the price of sugar, and, notwithstand-
ing the expectation that the douse will not. confirm the scheme
•of the Hon. Gentleman for admitting slave sugar into the
. British market, that expectation has not tended, I believe, to in-
crease the price of sugar. What may take place hereafter I
of course cannot foresee, but I am told that since the COM-
mencement of this debate, there has been again a material
fall in the price of sugar. The Hon. Gentleman who spoke
last says we are going to inflict an enormous injury upon
India by giving to the West Indies a monopoly of sugar. Ido
not exactly understand the Hon. and Learned Gentleman.
Why, if we 'give this encouragement to the home market, we
are preventing East Indian sugar from competing with Bra-
zilian sugar in the market of Europe. The 'lon. Gentleman
says, " For God's sake don't divert the capital of India, don't
divert the labour of India by this production of sugar, which
is (ter:aut to end in subsequent disappointment." Divert the
capital of India! Why, hay., you considered the relation
in which we stand with India ? The. question
simply is between the introduction of slave-grown
• .sugar and the introduction of free. labour •sugar.
With respect to India, the amount of remit-
tances •• on account of Government is 3,200,00:1!.,
besides private receipts to the amount of half a million. If I
can encourage the produce, and find employment for labour,
shall I be told that 1 am inflicting an irremediable injury upon
India?-4 Hear, hear.) If I enable them to make these re.. •
mittances by it, by. encouraging the production of sugar and
protecting agricultural labour, shall I be told, with refarenee.
to a country from, which I deman I an annual remittance, of
3,220,000 i., which it has no other means of making up except
by agricultural produce, shall I be told that some clear, in-
f illible doctrines of free trade prevent me from giving
encouragement to . that ?—( Loud cheers). 1 recollect
some recent debates in this House upon the condition
of India. I recollect the amount of the injury you had in-
flected upon. that country by the unavoidable, unintentional
cheapness of our produce. The town of. Jappa was reduced
from 1.501),(00 to 15,001 or 20,000, and the Malaya was
gradually advancing upon it. I. recollect •in the debate re-
Fpeeting the Hill Coot (33, the speech of the Hon. Member for
Roxburgh, who had perFonil experience of the condition of the
labouring classes, and: - I refresh the Honourable Gen-
tleman's memory for •the purpose of calming his alarm as
to the extreme -danger of diverting.the resources, of India. The.
Hon. - Gentleman said he mas appointed to inquire
into the condition •of the - agricultural labour of
Bengal. He 'found that they were paid about Is. 6d.