The Sun.
London, England, 1841-03-16 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, MARCH 16,1841

On the motion of Sir THOMAS FRE MAN-
TLE, leave of absence was given to Mr. Thesiger to
go the circuit.

POOR-LAWS.

Col. SIBTHORP gave notice that when the New
Poor-law Bill next came on for discussion, he should
move that it be read a second time that day six months.
Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET said that
some returns for which he bad moved so long ago as
the 2d of February, had not been laid on the table of
the House.
Mr. WAKLEY said that as reports had appeared in
the newspapers stating that there was an intention to
deprive the public of access to the Green-park, he
wished to know whether there was any foundation for
that statement.
Mr. FOX MAULE replied that the statement was
totally incorrect. There was no intention either to
prevent the public from using the Park or to alter the
hours of admission. The arrangements which ha i been
mac'e would continue only until the ground was made
solid, and the grass sprung up.
SOUTH AUSTRALIA.
On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL, the House
then went into Committee on the South Australia Acts.
'clic NOBLE Loan then rose to move—That it is
the opinion of this Committee, that her Majesty be
authorised, by an Act of the present Session of Parlia
merit, to guarantee a Loan, not exceeding 210,000/., to
be contracted for by the Commissioners for South
Australia' and that provision be male out of the Con-
solidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Bri-
tain and Ireland, for the payment from time to time of
such sums of money as may become payable under such
guarantee ; and proceeded to make some observaeions
in a tone scarcely audible in the gallery. We
understood the Neble Lord to say that the co-
lony of South Australia was founded by Act of
Parliament. Generally speaking, the colonies of
Great Britain were under one or two species of govern-
ment. Tncy were either under a Local Government,
consisting of a Representative Assembly, or the general
affairs of the colony were under the sanction of the
Crown, or else they were colonies under the immediate
control of the Crown, which appointed Governors.
It was eeliether a Government entirely in the hands of
the Commission was not entirely under the control of the
Government at home. The provisions of the Act of
Parliament specified that there were to be certain Com-
mistioners, and that, they were to be appointed by the
Crown ; and by the Bth section of that Act, the whole of
the charges and expenses of the Government of the colony
were to be defrayed under and by the direction of the
Commis_ionere. That Act was proposed, in the first
instance, by certain Members of Parliament and other
gentlemen, and contains likewise provisions respecting
emigration and the sale of lands. From the very first
there seemed to have been very considerable difficulty in
construing the Act, and the law officers of the Crown wer e
referred to for their opinion on certain portions of it.
It appeared from this that the Commissioners were to
be considered responsible for the general expenses of
the colony, and that they were also to have the direc-
tion in their hands. From that time it appeared to
him practicable to direct to a useful purpose the
labours of the colonists. Another difficu'ty arose
in consequence of there being a Governor, and also a
resident Commissioner for the sale and grant of Crown
lands, these two persons holding different notions of
their authority, and disputes consequently arose. After
a certain period Lord Glenelg and the Commissioners
agreed that Captain Hindaearsh could not carry on the
affairs of the colony to any useful purpose, and Col. Gave-
ler was appointed Governor in his stead. On his arrival
he found the administration of justice, and every
portion of the colonies in a most deplorable state.
Subsequently it appeared that the expenditure
very far exceeded the revenue of the colony.
The expenditure, which at first was about 20,000/. or
30,000/., rose to 80,000/. or 90,000/. a-year, and af-
terwards to the enormous expense of 120,0001. In
July last the Commissioners reported that state
ut: affairs, and he immediately said that that
rats of expenditure must stop, that the Go-
vernor must be required to account for it ; and
that as the Colony had been founded by Acts of
Parliament, he would immediately, at the commence-
ment of the next Session of Parliament, move for the
appointment of a Committee to examine into the
whole question of what ought to be done with
respect to the Colony. In the month of November, after
further representations from the Commissioners, and re-
presentations of their total inability to pay the bills
which were drawn from the colony, he requested the
attention of the Treasury to the subject, and they
appointed one of the Lords of the Treasury to make a
Report to them with regard to the financiel affairs
of the colony. A Report was made, and the opinion
of the Treasury, as welt as his own opinion,
was that in the existing state of the affairs of the
colony, it was necessary, if the colony was to be pre•
served, that Government should propose to guarantee the
parties who were willing to lend their money on secu-
rity, and that a loan should be proposed for that pur-
pose. The effect of that declaration did not produce a
loan to the colony, but it did quiet the alarm which
at the moment prevailed, and induced parties to
withhold demands for payment of the expenses that
had been incurred till the meeting of Parliament.
At the meeting of Parliament, as this was a subject
exceedingly complicated in its nature, and as Parlia-
ment itself by its own Acts protected the colony,
he thought it was much better that a Committee
should be appointed, of which the several Members
might make themselves masters of the whole transac-
tion, than that he should endeavour to explain the whole
of the affairs of the colony to the House, and to adopt his
opinion, because it had appeared to him that a demand
for inquiry was certain to be made which it would not
be possible to resist. He had no hesitation, however,
in stating in what respect he thought the Acts re-
lating to South Australia were defective—in what re-
spect they had contributed to the present state of
affairs in the colony, and what was the general course by
which Parliament should be guided, without saying what
particular provisions should be made in legislating
for the future in regard to this colony. The first
Act relating to South Australia, was, as he conceived,
founded on two general principles, one of them he thought
an exceedingly sound and useful principle—a principle
which had been acted upon before, to a certain degree,
and which had been acted upon since to a much larger
degree ; viz., the principle that uncultivated public
lands in a colony, instead of being, as in former times,
granted in very large proportions to individuals without
the means of cultivating them, should be sold at a cer-
tain price, and the price thus obt lined should be
employed in sending labourers to the market—( Hear)
and so induce people of capital to come forward in aid
o f the colony, and at the same time supply labour, so
necessary for the progress of the new colony. So far
as that principle was embodied in the South Austra.
lien Act he conceived that Parliament acted wisely
in enacting it. But it appeared to him
that at the same time they hail adopted
another principle that was far more doubtful, and in his
opinion it was one that could not be carried out suc-
cessfully in the colony of South Australia. That prin-
ciple was that the colony was to be what was called self-
supported ; that the whole of its expenses, administra-
tive, judicial, and otherwise, was to be de-
frayed without any demand being made upon the
mother country. It was proposed that this should be
done by two modes ; first, by the revenue received in the
colony, and second, by the means afforded by the
emigration fund. Now he did not think that it was
probable that the revenues of the colony could be
able to pay the expenses that must naturally
occur in a new colony. In a small colony of course
the expenses of justice, &c., must be as great as in one
that was six times larger, therefore the principle was
not a sound one. In the second Bill there was a
provision that certain loans might be made• upon
the faith of the emigration fund, with a proviso
that at the end of the year not more than one-fifth
of the whole sums received from the sale of land should
be owing from the revenue fund. The obvious
consequence of that was that the colony was to be sup-
ported by loans. The intention was that although at
certain times such loans were to be paid, yet there were
to be large sums constantly borrowed, which were to
defray the ordinary expenses of the colony. Now there
were various ways in which such a provision might be
attended with dangerous results. In the first place so
long as such loans were allowed, while the extent to
which they could be raised was not defined, the local
Government had not a sufficient cheek not to enter into
needless expenditure. In the next place the plan
went on the supposition that there was almost an
inexhaustible amount of loans, and that the sale of
lands would every year realise a certain sure.
sßouructrei:pfo:ariisnnsaitmaipnloacasern:ble to calculate the profit which would
btereeedaoetriileevxeepdnelfrom such a source. In the third place, diffi-
culties may overtake the colony at its commencement,
doa
us
rttshh,ee
whichneeocleosnsyi
mightfiorh
thnb a repellingattended
enemies,sdeedm ewa inths
Zs.:;rassed ; so that the prgoposeyd system could
no longer be carried into effect. There was also
in the second Act a provision, which was in itself
very dangerous or totally impracticable. It said that
there were to be loans on the emigration fund, but that
tra3t
atlice.oernticilinofamtlniennyte.ar tNhoewmotini:y to he repaid. uph
means
freshto
repaylo nt vt:eoamns
w;the
ns assumption
Commissionersih enextp ill might
(lathe
Capsetiolansttlaututttulmie it
rne,
eigw:iguohlndt ibbneecufnorluerind impossible,
t r comply with the provisions of the Act. When
they had exhausted the eiergration fund they had no re-
source for making fresh loans, and their credit would
have
to two things—first, the revenue of the
colonies, and then the expenditure, which might be
o uldfallen.
look
w The persons who could lend the money
100,0001., while the revenue was but 20,0001. That
would be nu inducement to them to lend their money.
_
They might next inquire into the future resources of the
colony which might be found inadequate to the dernandson
it. He had now stated in what manner those embarrass-
ments of the colony had arisen. He thought those
embarrassments were derived from the Acts of Par-
liamentgoverned: He
regretted very mach that that
by which that colonywiwa
u.chs
he
00eattiered

sound principle, namely, the sale of lands at a certain
price, and the application of the sums arising from those
sales—either in whole or in part—to the purposes
of immigration—that so sound a principle shoull
not meet with approbation. The Act to which he ha I
referred had other provisions, which he thought were
ruinous to the financial affairs of the colony. But
while he stated that with regard to the finances of
the colony—while he certainly would not express any
strong opinion on the subject, ho would say there
were resources in the colony which would fur-
' nish means of paying off all the liabilities of
the colony. It was a colony which, even at the
present period, contained very cosiderable.resources with
much industry, and with a considerable appearance of
exertion, and it would, he was convinced, if it was sup.
ported by Parliament, get out of the difficulties which
had arisen around it. He did not think that Parlia-
ment ought to agre r in the continuance of the present
s} stem. He had very great doubts whether :hey
ought to rase any money for the purposes which the
Committee approved of-56,0001, which it was pro-
posed should be applied to immigration ; however the
Committee had adopted that course, and his (Lord
John Ituseell's doubt was rather whether it
was not better to hold an inquiry into
what was preferable to adopt, than to make such an
effort now. In proposing that they should relieve the
colony from its financial embarrassments, it was not
perhaps necessary that he should state his opinions as
to the manner in which the colony should be in future
governed—( Hear, hear)—but he bad no hesitation in
stating that he thought the principles of Government
which were applied to the other cclanies shoal I be
applied to it. That making what provisions they
thought proper respecting the sale of land, and the
application of the money derived therefrom, he
was of opinion that the provisions which placed the
coritrol in the hands of the Commissioners, and not
under the control of the Treasury, should be repealed.
He thought if the Crown had anything to do with
relieving it from its present embarrassments, it sliculd
have a direct control in the appointment of its
executive and government ; that the correspondence
between the Governor and the Secretary of State—
( Hear, hear)—and that with respect to all financial
statements and demands—that these questions, as in the
case of the old col mies, should be referred to
the Treasury, and that they should express their
opinion upon it to the Secretary of State before any
steps vs ere taken--(Hear, hear.) He could see no-
thing but mischief ;if that anomalous kind of govern-
ment, in which the Crown had no apparent discretion,
leaving in fact every thing to the Commissioner=, was
permitted to exist. If the House thought the Govern-
meat of South Australia should be represented—
although that was not his opinion—ha should
be realy to give his assent to it. He thought the other
suggestion the most advisable one—(Hear, hear)—and
he feared that every succeeding year would only in-
crease the difficulties that would arise if they de-
parted from all those ancient principles on which
the colonies of that country had flourished. The No-
ble Lord concluded by snoring his resolution.
Lord STANLEY said the Noble Lord had stated
very correctly that in the Committee to inquire into the
Acts rasting to South Australia, and to consider the
propriety of advancing a sum of money, very little diffe-
rence prevailed on one point, namely, that what-
ever step it might be advisable to take, should
be communicated to Parliament with the least possible
delay. He (Lord Stanley) had stated his opinion that
the subject WAS one which could not properly
be referred to the consideration of a Committee,
but one in which the responsibility'of administering
relief under its financial embarrassments, and of
bringing forward a plan for an alteration of the
present system of government rested principally
upon her Majesty's Government. Upon that subject
so strongly did the Committee feel, that although it
was true a report had been issued, recommending the
advance of certain sums, yet that was accomp tnied
by a resolution placing the whole responsibility of
the proceedings in the hands of the Government.
Tnat was carried not only by no large majority,
but by the casting vote of the Chairman,
he being a Member of her M ijesty's Government,
and two other members of the Government voting in
favour of the recommendation. He entertained the
opinion then, and he still adhered to it, that
;t was not the duty of the Government
to throw such a question loosely before the
Committee, but that corning down to Parliament on
their own responsibility, they should state the
course they. proposed to adopt, and afterwards
tike the opinion of a Select Committee. As
to details which could not be conveniently discussed in
that House. He remained of the same opinion still,
that it was the duty of her Majesty's Government to
come down to Parliament not only w th the proposal to
relieve the embarrassments of the Colony, but also
with a definite proposal as to tire alteration which
their experience suggests to them ought to be male.
He quite concurred with the Noble Lord in his con-
demnation of the so-called self-supporting principle.
He had always been of opinion that that principle
was founded upon erroneous calculations. Ile felt
bound to say that the original Act was introduced
most hastily, and passed without that deliberation
to which it was entitled. When he had the honour of
filing the office of Colonial Secretary, he had en-
tered his protest against the plan of govern-
ing a colony by Commissioners, the responsibility
rested then upon no one. He quitted office in
May, and almost the next day his successor was pressed
hardly to agree to a Bill which he (Lord Stanley) had
Lever seen, yet it was alleged that he had agreed to it,
and that Bill was agreed to. The colony was formed,
and all that had taken place was perfectly natural—the
bubble burst, and the self-supporting principle was
blown to shreds. What was to be expected from a
colony the expenditure of which was 140,0001. a year,
while its revenue was not more than 20,0001.—a colony
whore the Government House, upon a sanctioned
authority, was built at an expense of 24,0001.—a
colony where 22,0001. was spent upon making if road
to a harbour, which was badly chosen in the first in-
stance— a colony where the land which was originally
sold at 123., was afterwards sold at 5001., 1,0001.,
even 1,500/. an acre—a colony in which a body of po-
lice complained of inadequate pay while receiving
1/. I9e. a week, they complaining of the expense they
were put to in cleaning their white trowsers and white
gloves—(Hear, hear)—a colony into which had been
introduced all the conveniencies and luxuries of a set-
tled state while it was still in the state of a wilderness ?
What wAs the result? Why, that there were not 200
acres of land under tillage for the suppont of the colony.
Inst rad of the first settlers directing their attention to
defraying the expenses of their own maintenance, by
the cultivation of the soil the whole of their subsistence
was derived from England or from the colonies. There
was scarcely an acre tilled by them for their own support ;
and the whole of the colonists were occapi el with specu-
lations and land jobbing. He asseated to the pri-ciple of
the propriety of having the land sold applied to purposes
of emigration. But they should not fix on a uniform
price. He thought that the facility of obtaining land in
the colonies had the mischievous tendency of leading the
population to disperse iself over the country, and occupy
more land than they could manage. In order to obviate
that inconvenience, he thought that they should impose
such a price on land as would prevent large tracts from
being monopolised by parties who could not make upon it
a sufficient outlay. Let them not allow any parties to
occupy land, without any reference to the general interests
of the community, or at an insufficient price. Let it not
be granted, for instance, at a pound an acre, while it was
worth thirty or forty shillings. That was throwing away
the revenues of the colony in a way which the founders of
the system had never contemplat Al. Every precaution
should be taken to direct the attention of the colonists
from land-jobbing and land speculations, whirls were the
sources of the difficulties in which many of the
colonies were now placed. (Hear, hear, bear.)
The Noble Lord stated his intention, without reference to
the recommendation which the Committee may have
made, and very properly stated his intention to bring for-
ward his own measure for the alteration of the Act in that
respect in which he considered it defreient. The Noble
Lord here proceeded to show that the manner in which
the emigration fund was raised gave rise to unlimited
credit, and, in consecpienee, to unlimited exeeaditure.
The result was unlimited bankruptcy. He (Lord Sian-
ley) prrfi cdy concurred in the general principles and views
which the Noble Lord laid down for the future manage-
ment of the colony, but he thought that before the Noble
Lord called on that House to vote large sums of money
for that colony, without holding out any recurity or pro-
spect of repayment, he ought to embody those views in a
measure which he should submit to the House, and in
which he would give the details and provisions of that Act
which he said he would introduce. He did not know
whether it was the Noble Lcrd's intention, immediately
after that resolution was passed, in the ignorance of the
state of the colonies in which the majority of the
House was, that the Commissioners should go into
the market, and raise the loan proposed. Much as he
(Lord Stanley) desired to see an end of the difficulties
of that colony, he did not think that the Noble Lord was
entitled in the present state of information on the subject
to call upon the House t sanction such a
proceeding. He
(Lord Stanley) would be sorry to negative the propositions
of the Noble Lord, but he must say that it was not right
for Government to call on that House to sanction a grant
of money:without giving, in the form of a Bill,the measures
which they intend to introduce on the subject. While they
were called on to advance a loan, they did not know on
what principles the colony was her. after to be conducted,
or what security they were likely to have for that loan, and
how Government proposed to meet any financial difficulties
that might ari e. He would advise the Noble Lord to
consent that the Chairman do report progress, and post-
pone the p-esent measure for a week or so, that the House
might fairly consider the exigencies of the colony, and
would not call on the House to pledge itself to vete
`210,000/. in the present state of information on the subject.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that be brought forward
this question and had it referred to a Committee, because
the colony deprecated delay above all things, aid he con-
sidered it the duty of Government to bring forward some
measure on the subject with the least possible delay.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said that the difficulty might
be settled if the Noble Lord would state upon the reso-
lution pas,ing that he would postpone raising the money.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
so far as the Government were concerned they had no
other wish than to meet the &aims of the colony, and
the parties connected with it,

Lord HOWICK said that these parties who had ad-
vanced morey on bills drawn on the Treasury by the au-
thorities appointed under the Act of Parliament, had
every reason to he:ieve that these persons were authorised
to draw those bills, and under tho e circuinstacecs the
bills must be paid, but it was important that they should
be paid without delay. It seemed to him that by taking
the course suggested by his Noble F iend opposite there
would be a considerable delay. What he (Lord Howick)
would suggest was that it was desirable that the Com-
mittee should now assent to the resolution proposed, and
that that resolution he reported, and that Government,
hosing the authority from the House, would then be en•
aided at once to raise the loan, and they could altar-
wards have as much time as Naas requirsd to meet
the immediate difficulties of the colony.—( Hear.)
It appemmd to him that that would be a course which would
most completely meet both what was due to the interests
of pm i• ate parties in the colony, and what was dueto the
II muse and the country, which was interested in the ad-
v mace of the public money. hi many of the views of the
Noble Lord he fully concurred, aid in others be certsioly
differed. It eppsared to him, however, that they were
bound to provide for the immediate and pressing financial
necessities of the colony, and he should, therefore, support
the motion of the Noble Lord.
Mr. HU rT said the Noble Lord (Stanley) had thought
proper is attack the persons who had acted as Commis-
si mama, and were inte:.e tad in the management of the
c loney. Now the had r etc rhe and more rash or un-
founded statements than tie Noble Lord hal made to
the House. He had spoken of their extravagance in the
tronagerneit of the finances of the colony, and charged
them with having attached to it a fictitious prosperity.
He (Mr. Hutt) uverly dcnie 1 the truth of these state-
ment-3, and he regretted the Noble Lord had not bad
mere regard for his station and charac'er than to hazard
such assertion?. Having been connected with the Com-
mis.i mers of South Austra.i a, he truste'i the House
would indulge him fm a fes moments, while he
stated a few fat's connected with that colony to
the 11. use. Hitherto it had not cost the Government at
home siapenc —( hear. ) It had no share %abates', rin the
expenditure cf the public locals, and it was neither a naval
nor a military state me.—( Hear, hear.) It contained a
population of 15,000, many of whom, as the Noble Lord
ha I stet d, exhibited early indication of activity and good
conduct ; and although it hal been in existence as a co-
lony only four years, it contained a larger amount of
stock than New South Wales after it had been thirty
years a British colony.—( Hear, hear.) He need not
take up the time of the House by referring to the many
public works of importance which had been already un-
dertaken by the Commissioners, although they had en-
tered upon their functions under circumstances of great
and unprecedented dilicelty. After four years of the
performance of their duty, they ha I been disbanded by
the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Calonies. He did not
cesnplain of that, but he could state to the Committee that
since then the saes of lind which had been every year
progressing had gone back ; emigration had ceased, and
the capitalists, who had been in the habit of e.nbarking
their money in the Colony, had no longer speculated;
then came these untoward bils, which alone would have
been sufficient to produce considerable incorvenieace.
The Commissioners did not raise the money to pay them
off as they should have done, in his opinion, till the Colony
had lost its credit, and then they tried when it was too late.
Under these circumstances the Noble Lord came down to
the House to propose a loan, and he trusted the House,
considering the security it was obtaining, would sanction
the motion.
Mr. M'KINNON having been one of the C ammission•
era, felt it his duty fo say a few wcrele. The Han. Mem-
ber who had last spoken had stated that the colony had
been progressing ti'l the Noble Lord had removed the
C rnmissi 'ners, and in saying that it appeared to him that
this Han. Member had conveyed a stronger censure upon
the Noble Lard than anything that had been sai I on that
si le of the House. He thought that all the evils of the
present state of things arose from the appointment of the
salaried Commissioners. As a proof of that he would
mention that in 1839, under the old system, fifty thousand
acres of land had been sol I at the rate of a pound per
acre, while in the year 1840, under the Commissioners,
there wet e sold only 7,400 acres, and of these 4,000 bad
hem contracted for by a gert'emsn in Ireland.
Me V. SMITH denied the justice of attributing to
the new Commissioners the grievances of the colony. The
evils were really owing to the ombarrassments, nhich were
the necessary consequence of the system preciously pur-
sued, and especially to the number of bills which had been
issued by Colonel Gaoler, and which it was afterwards
necessary to meat. He did not think any further delay
was advisable, and the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Stan-
ley) had himself, on a former occasion, in•isted that by
postponing some measure far settling the question they
would only aggravate existing evils. Her Msjesty'y Go-
vernment had been ceesured for not taking upon them-
selves the responsibility of relieving the colony from its
&amities instead of submitting them to a Co nmi.t.m.
The a Cason why they ha f not dame so was that the colony
was an anomalous creation of Parliament itself, and they
thought the matter should, ther fore, be referred to Par-
liament. If the re-payment of this c migration fund would
set the colony afloat:it ought to be applied. Persons unae-
(painted with the peculiar formation of the colony hal em-
barked their property, and they would be ruined it Parlia.
ment did not interfere. NotwitintanOing the great em-
barrassments of the colony, ye', compared with other
colonies, he did not consider that it would
be a dear bargain at that price. The ex-
penditure of Western Australia in 1834, was
25,413/. That colony had at that time a population not
exceeding 2,000; whilst in S mush Australia, there was
already a population of 15 000. On tbo whole, therefore,
he thought the.propeets were not very discouraging. The
Right Hon. Gentleman then concluied h reading some
extracts from the correspondence of Colonel Torrens, and
explanatory of the conduct of the Colonial Secretary with
respect to the payment of the Commissioners' salaries.
Sir R. PEEL said he wished that course to be taken
which would prosi le far the exigencies of the colonies,
and, at the same time, prevent additional expense at a
future time. But was the proposal made of this kind ?
His Noble Friend had given no opi ion adverse to time
loan, but had merely said that it was the duty of the
House, when contracting liabilities to provide a loan to Lave
distinct information on what footing the Government
of the colony was in future to be placed. Were they sure
that 220,000/. was all that would be required ?—( Hear,
hear.) The principle involved in the loan was more cx.
tensive. Suppose the estimate should be a fallacious one,
could they limit their advance to that sum ; would not the
Noble Lord bring forward a supplemental es imaec, and,
on the same principle as the first loan, call upon them to
contract a second ?—t Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentle-
man informed the House that Colonel Torrens was the
first to denounce the principle on which the colony was
founded, and thought the scheme was a total fai-
lure. He (Sir Robert Peel) confessed his confi-
dence in Colonel Torrens's opinion was a good deal
when he heard this and read the Report of Colonel Tor-
rens delivered in July 1840, in which he said (p. 11, 4th
Report) the unexampled prosperity of South Australia had
excited an envious spirit of hostility in persons interested
in promoting emigration to other settlements. But now the
lion. Gentleman said a new light had broken in upon
Colonel Torrens, and that he thought the experience of
this colony should be a warning to others not to found a
colony on the same principles. Now, was it not
a reasonable proposition, if a Isms were asked
under these circumstances, to ask the principles
on which the colony was hereafter to be founded ?
Distinct information ought to he conveyed to the
House in the shape of a Bill on the subject. Two
Governors had been already removed, aid was not this
with the Report of the Treasury, a Parliamentary ground
for inquiry? Were they not conclusive reasons why the
Noble Lord should inform them of the intention of Govern-
ment? The time was come when it was necessary to alter both
time territorial division and the form of the Constitution.
They were bound to make provision for the wants of these
15,000 people, who, in embarking their capital, could not
he supposed to enter into all the minutia connected with
the formation of the colony. He would suggest a course
which he thought would reconcile the two objects which
they had in view, namely, the desire to have some
assurance from Government that the colony should, in its
future governmetu, be placed upon a better foundation,
and, at the same time, meet the pressing exigency of the
case. He proposed that the questi an of a loan should be
postponed for a short time,but that the Government should,
to-morrow or the next day, or at as early a
period as possible lay upon the table of the House an esti-
mate of the expenses actually incurred, and of bills due,
for which provision must be made, and that the Govern.
ment should come forward and propose t o take just so much
as required by the exigency —( Hear, hear.) Even in
point of economy it would be unwise to delay the payment
of just demands. They would eventually have to pay not
only them but the incidental expenses which would have
occurred.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wished
to know how the Hon. Baronet proposed to make the
advance?

Sir ROBERT PEEL slid that his proposition wa to
take the bills due and to give the Government the power
of at once granting a loan.

Lord J6E-IN RUSSELL slid that before he addressed
himself to the proposition of the Hon. Baronet he must ex-
press his surprise at the course which had been taken by
the Nobl' Lord. He had certainly thought it right on a
subject of this kind that there should be a Committee.
The Under Sec-etary of State had stated to the House,
on the part of the Government, that the -e were two things
which would be kept in view, one, the relief of those persons
who required it, and the other, to pl lee the Colony under the
control of the Crown. In the Committee on this subject the
Noble Lord hai proposed a resolution to the effe3t, that
delay in adopting measures for relief could not but tend
greatly to aggravate the evil, and yet the Noble Lord
proposed a course which must lea Ito delay. Had he
( Lord John Russell) brought forward a Biel on the sub-
jcet, the relief might have been retarded by opposition on
that (the Ministerial) side of the House. With regard to
the proposition just made, lie thought that it quite met the
ex'g ncies of the case. lo whici cv.r shape the relief
was administered, it would be eqnally sati4actory to the
parties.

Lord STANLEY rose to explain. He had objected,
and did still object to del ty, hut he did not see how that
was inconsistent with what he had proposed, namely, that
they should be put in possession of the views which her
Majesty's Government entertained wi,h regard to the future
Government of the colony. The Noble Lord should
have brought forward his Bill at the commencement of the
session; and he ought not to have been influenced by the
liar of opposition from ciihtr side of the House. It wns
t his (Lord Stanley's) fault that no Bill had been laid
before Parliament, and that the Government had endea-
voured to throw that burden upon the Committee which
properly belonged to t'-e executive.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
Cie, there never was a case in which Government bad
shown less anxiety to throw off responsibility. So far
from shrinking, his Noble Friend, when he moved for a
Committee hail distinctly stated what measures the Go-
vernment intended to propose. If they had come to the
House with a Bill, objections would doubtless have been
made to that course of proceeding,._-(1./cer, bear.) The
government would thou have been OtC'etlied of Inking