The Sun.
London, England, 1847-01-26 00:00:00

he ought to be relieved from all contingent expenses, but
when a tradesman or a merchant was unable to meet the I
demands made upon him, the country interfered and di-
vested him of that property. The Drainage Act, passed
in the time of the Hon. Member for Tamworth, had only
just come into useful effect, for the Act of
last session had not yet come into useful operation.
The proposal to advance money at 3 per
cent. tur twenty-two years would take away
all the just grounds urged by the proprietors
of land against the improvement of their property.
With the aid of these measures, he confidently antici-
pated, seeing Ireland restored to peace and happiness.
Mr. LEF ROY wished to ask the Noble Lord two questions.
Did Government intend to take steps to insure a supply of
food in Ireland ? Unless they did do so the proprietors of the
land would experience considerable difficulty in alleviating the
sufferings of the people. The next question he wished to ask
was, in what way will the proprietors of land have the benefit
of the borrowed money ?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL replied, that Government did
propose to interfere with the trade and importation of corn
into Ireland. With regard to the second question, he would
rather defer answering it for the present.
Lord LINCOLN said there were two questions which he
was desirous to put to the Noble Lord. The first was with re•
Bard to the drainage ; he wished to know whether the Noble
Lord proposed to extend the operation of the Million Act of
last year ? The Noble Lord would recollect that two millions
had been voted for the drainage of England and Scotland, and
one million to Ireland. Now, did he propose to limit the
amount to that sum, or was he prepared to advance sums from
time to time, according as there might be a demand for them ?
The second question had no immediate reference to the speech
of the Noble Lord, but it was exceedingly important that public
attention should be directed to it, and was becoming daily
more so. He alluded to the anticipated increase of fever in
several parts of Ireland. The late Government were so
strongly impressed with the necessity of taking some measures
to prevent such a calamity, that they passed a short Act called the
Fever Bill, that enactment would expire on the Ist of Sep-
tember next. Under it, power was given to constitute a cen-
tral board. Sir Philip Crampton and Dr. Corrigan were
named as presidents. He believed that the present Govern-
ment, conceiving that the board was no longer necessary, abo-
lished it. He wished also to know when the Noble Lord would
proceed with the Bill, with a view to the renewal of the dis-
cussion, and when he would be prepared to lay on the table
those papers to which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
alluded. He apprehended that the Government were in pos-
session of a great mass of other information, which it would
be most desirable should be placed its the possession of the
House.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Government intended to
have a separate Act for the drainage of Ireland. They wished
somewhat to enlarge the clauses, and although the sum would
be limited to one million, the Government would not hesitate
to advance such sums as might seem requisite. With regard
to the second question, the Noble Lord was aware that there
were many practical difficulties which he was better able to ex-
plain than he ( Lord John Russell) was. With regard to the
third question, I do not know that I can precisely fix a day.
Sir G. GREY—Say Wednesday next.
Lord J. RUSSELL—WeII, then the papers will be laid upon
the table of the House on Wednesday next, and I propose to
renew the discussion on Monday next.
Mr. LABOUCHERE explained that the operation of the
Fever Act had been very unsatisfactory, and many abuses had
erept in which had materially operated against its efficiency.
The Noble Lord opposite (Lord Lincoln) was aware, that be-
sides the Fever Act there were other Acts that could be
brought into operation for the prevention of Fever. There
was a provison under the Poor-law Act, by which the poor-law
authorities, with the consent of the commissioners could attach
fever hospitals to the workhouses. In many instances this
had already been done. There were likewise one or two other
Acts of Parliament. There was one of the Acts of George
111., cap. 55 and 56, empowering local boards to establish
fever hospitals, the expense to be levied for the time on the
county as the case might be. The Government had done all
in their power to meet the fever which was alleged to pre-
vail, but such had been the abuses of the law of last session,
that they were anxious to meet the evil by the ordinary laws.
Though fever had arisen in cases where there was a defi..
ciency or want of food, in other respects the country was
generally free. He believed the alleged cases of fever that
had taken place in the workhouses were cases of dysentery and
not properly fever.—( Hear, hear. )
Sir R. INGLIS said, that from the observations of the
Irish Members, and looking at the state of the benches, the
feeling seemed general that the discussion should be ad-
journed. Still, he would he even more unworthy of a seat in
that House than he was if he suffered such a speech to pass
without expressing his cordial admiration of that address, re-
markable as it had been for the topics introduced, as well as
for those omitted.—( Hear, hear.) In discussing such a
question as the one under consideration, the difficulty was to
treat the state of Ireland so as to avoid those points of diffi-
culty through which other Ministers had been overset.
His Noble Friend had attempted to conciliate both sides of the
House, and had not attempted to provoke any opposition to the
measures he proposed. There was one point upon which he
(Sir R. H. Inglis) ventured to express some doubt, and thvt
was whether his Noble Friend might not re-consider his pro-
posal to great advantage. As far as he (Sir R. H. Inglis)
understood the statement made, there were no less than
4,500,000 acres in Ireland, which it was proposed to
reclaim. His Noble Friend proposed to divide this
large area into sections, so inconsiderable as not even
the most purely political economy would propose fur an
impoverished and pauperised people, with its agriculture de-
teriorating from day to day. Supposing this area were to be di-
vided into compartments of 20 or 50 acres, it would be laying
the foundation of one of the greatest evils of Ireland.
—a rising population without means to enable them to culti-
vate the soil. Let them look at France and see how
the subdivision of land was injuring that great country.
He would rese. ve to himself the opportunity on a future occa-
sion of giving further expression to his opinion on the measure
of her Majesty's Government.
In answer to a question put by Lord HAMILTON, we un-
stood the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say that it was not
proposed to allow the proprietors of land in Ire-
land to obtain money from the Government for the
purpose of carrying on the ordinary cultivation of the land.
He begged to state that relative to the parish of Skibberecn, it
should be borne in mind that there were an immense number
of persons now to be fed, who had never required to he fed
before; and in one parish in that union the deaths at present
amounted to 25 per day. Having stated this he was most
anxious to ask two questions of her Majesty's Government
whether it was their intention to bring in a Bill to enlarge
the Piers and Fisheries' Act by affording greater facilities, and
also whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Govern-
ment to take steps in consequence of the survey then making
of Cork harbour (which they had been requested to do in
consequence of an important meeting held there to take
steps for the improvement and extension of that harbour. He
thought that he might state that any outlay laid out on the
harbour of Cork would be a most politic measure in conse-
quence of its important geographical position, and its import-
ance in the case of war.
Mr. GRATTAN thought it most important, in considering
the propriety of adjourning the debate, to consider what time
the debate should be adjourned to. He fully coincided in the
remarks made by the Noble Lord opposite, as to the state of
the parish of Skibbereen. He had received a letter from a
gentleman in whom every confidence might be placed, and he
stated that the only red ground seen now was in the church,
yard, and so great was the number of deaths, that five acres
more were taken tin to add to the churchyard. The Ministry
said that nothing could be done to remedy this dreadful visita-
tion. He remembered when something was done. When the
Right Hon. Gentleman who sat beside him (Sir R. H. Inglis)
and himself were young, the greatest names which the country
could produce, who then ruled the destinies of the empire, took
measures for the speedy relief of Ireland. He remembered
also, at a period not long remote, there were imported from
foreign countries 3,700,000 quarters of grain, and from Ireland
1,776,000 quay ters, making over 5,000,000 quarters, and she
sent back to the latter country 47,000 quarters. Out of a
revenue which Rome, in its palmiest days, could
never have boasted—out of a revenue of 53,000,0001.,
having an excess of 2,300,0001.—England allowed grain to
reach 325. a barrel, and oatmeal 4s. 2d. a stone, while the
wages of the labourer in Ireland only averaged Bd. and 9d. a
day. He thought, therefore, if they adjourned this debate for
a week, they ought to send over food in the meantime. If
they had sent some relief to the southern couuties in time,
much of the present expense might have been spared them.
There seemed to be a determination on both sides of the House
not to continue this debate. The Noble Lord had made a
very able speech. He had drawn a pieture of Scotland, Eng-
land, and Ireland. He (Mr. Grattan), would not quote from
the books referred to by the Noble Lord, but he would only
remind them of the state of Ireland before that country was
handed over to him and his predecessors. He would ask the
Noble Lord why the Duke of Buckingham paid
only 6,000/. in his neighbourhood, when he (Mr.
Grattan) was actually taxed for teaching the children
of his tenantry? Did they think that if individuals
like the Duke of Buckingham, lived in the canary, the loss of
this esculent would have ruined Ireland. He would impress
the Noble Lord on this point, that if he intended to tax those
men
3nacisvonhon lived at home, they should also tax those who had
d their country, for he (Mr. Grattan) did not think
y
that a man discharged his duty to his 'country, if he ran away,
,and left the people on his estate to perish. Earl Fitzwilliam,
wok his 50,0001. from the same part
tof the country, and Lord
Portsmouth, was also a great
there-
fore,that the Noble Lord would tax He trusted,
gentlem.en double,
.and he could assnre the Noble Lord that thee union with Ireland
could never be stable, until they had a contented peasantry, a
happy yeomanry, and a resident gentry.
Colonel VERNER said that there was one important point
which seemed to have escaped the attention of all those who e
had addressed the House that evening. He referred to the
purchase of fire-arms by the discontented peasantry. He
had had a communication from a gentleman connected with
the county which he had the honour to represent, and he was
assured by that gentleman that a certain dealer had sold in a par-
ticular district of that county net less than 1,000 stand of arms,
while at the same time not a farthing of rent was paid by any
of the tenantry. In faet, it was dangerous to walk along the
public road, for such was the practice at targets, that the pea-
;isary, unaware to what length the guns would carry, very
frequently missed by a hair's breadth the lives of the passers
by. He would submit to the Noble Lord, that when people
were steeped in destitution like Ireland, it was high time for
Government to interfere and prevent the exportation of oatmeal
from that country. Just before he left Ireland he gave his steward
instructions to purchase a quantity of meal, but he had since
learned that there was none to be had. This state of things
could not have existed, had Government taken steps to prevent
heisting exported by speculative dealers.
TUITE said he wished particularly to be allowed to refer
Noble
oe Circumstance the Noble Lord had mentioned. The
acres ofl had stated that farmers, who held 30, 40, and 60
'Ad, sent th • to participate in the distribution
of son
of funds, sew,
the poor st: h had been intended for the relief of
he had attendertlinss7tes population.—( Hear, hear. ) Now
Payrt closely to the working relief
.committees in his
.canvinced such a eircums ofn the country, and he was quite
placeta as that mentioned by the Noble
Lord could not take
without the sanction of the relief cern-
.aiseeee of the district where
wilicr.e.iientsdrred. He thought it due 'to those relief committees,
I,nd deny, their duty, that the
suffered such a disgraceful
names of the committee who
dished to the world. He
occurrence to take place should be
but he attri-
aor, lreland._
had no doubt that it had taken
any furthern,
hilted it all to absenteeism—the curs!)
hems) He would not trouble the House
ex-
cept to regret that the Noble Lord had not named an earlier
day than Monday for the further discussion of those measures.
Mr. HUME had heard with great satisfaction the
cJf the Noble Lord, but still he must take exception to o
'cvo of his points. The Noble Lord had, with great candour,or
stated the evils that had arisen from the attempt of Govern.-
..meat agents to employ the people. The Noble Lord had
stated enough to convince them that the system had produced
eve 'much evil as good, and the sooner it was brought to a
eelose the better. There was one experiment in which he
: felt con;sinced Government would fail. He alluded to their
intention to reclaim waste lands. These attempts had always
Mailed, and resulted in robbing this country of much of its
.-capital. if the land was worth reclaiming, their would always
Ilse plenty of private capital to do it with, provided Govern-
ransnt would only consent to simplify the transference of land
Lir. Ireland, and establish there a similar land registry to that
scotland. Now land agents had recently told him that there
Va t plenty of private capital in this country ready to be ap-
rue, tto the recovery of waste Linda in Ireland, but for the