The Sun.
London, England, 1840-03-21 00:00:00

EVEN IN c; EDITION

paly's service, from entering the army or navy, or obtaining '
employment in any Government situation. He trusted
that he should bear from the Master-General of the Ord-
nance that no cadet had been removed or expelled, unless
for conduct by which his moral character had been tainted.
He up ierstaxi that the charge against three of these
youths was merely what might be considered a piece of fun
or frolic, three of them having combined together to test
the courage of another party. It appears they procured a
otaee of pistols, some powder, and a sponge saturated
with blood; but the courage of the bov was unshaken, and
he behaved in the most honourable and creditable manner.
Now, although conduct like that should be punished, it ap.
peared to him that a lighter punishment than one whith
would ruin the prospects of these young lads, would have
satisfied the ends of justice. He appealed to the Hon.
and Gallant General, whether it might not be judicious
to restore some of these young men who had not corn.
tnitted any grave offence, and he trusted the Hon. and
Gallant General might live long enough to see that his
kindness and mercy had not been misplaced. He felt
' strongly on the subject, because his military education had
commenced in that college, and he h sped the Hon and
Gallant Gentleman would favour the House with some
explanation.

Sir H. VIVIAN was not at all surprised at th,
anxiety which the Hon. and Gallant Member had show,
with regard to an establishment of which he himself had
been a student, and although that House was not the arena
in which the discipline of the Academy of Woolwich ought
to be discussed, still he 'etlt infinitely obliged to him fo.
bringing forward the subject, as it afforded him an op-
portunity of contradicting the many unfounded and libel-
lous statements which had appeared in the public papers
With respect to the occurrences which took place at the
fail of last year, the facts were these. For a considerable
number of years a system tantamount to what was termer
fagging, had been cruried on at the Academy, and under
that system some of the younger boys bad tyien extrernell
nPPeetged. In the month of August, when he ( Sir H
Vivian) was in the north of England, in the discharge 0
his dety, visiting the different barracks, into whici
an additional number of troops had been lately sent,
be received a report stating that one of the youths
;of the Academy bad been very ill treated. On
the following day he received a second report, stating tham
two youths had deserted from the academy, and gone ti
France. Not being able to return himself, he i.nmediatel)
wrote directing a Committee of inquiry to assemble, and
1 .rte composed of five of the most distinguished officers of
tie Ordnance assembled. He directed them thoroughly
to incrive into the state of the academy, and to report au)
li
youth who had misconducted himself. At the head of tha'
Committee was Lord Bloomfield, the kindness of whost

disposition was well-known, and he held in his hand al,
i abstract of the report of that Committee. He would not
read the names of the youths, but be would stare to tht
llous2 wi,at the crimes were, for which the Committee
~a 4 recr).,:mcnded their removal. No. 1 for striking
1 another cadet, leaving the hospital without orders, and
gross insubordination. Ncs. 2 and 3, desertion (these
two youths having gone off to France). No. 4, for
al-,use of his authority as corporal—that young man
was the beat conducted in the academy, and
ho bad soon afterwards restored him. No. 5, for
iii-tresting another cadet. No. 6 and 7, for insulting ano-
ther cadet, and being engaged in a mock duel. He would
not go into the whole of that case, but he pledged himself
that the Committee had no alternative in the decision

they had come to, and there was nothing he (Sir H.
Vivian) more lamented, because previously to that occur-
rence they had been extremely well conducted. No. 8
was also implicated in the mock duel, but his conduct had
been repeatedly extremely incorrect. Nos. 9, 10, and 11,
for ill-treating other cadets, and No. 12 for repeated mis-
conduct. Out of the twelve thus recommended for dis-
missal, eleven had been removed, and one restored by
him. Subsequently, upon the representation of the
Lieutenant-General, one had been discharged for a breach
of discipline, another for ill-treating a cadet, a third for
disobedience of orders, and a fourth for intoxication.
These were the crimes for which they were discharged,
and he behoved nothing had occurred but what had fre-
quently taken place at similar large establishments,
and public schools and universities. On a former
bet:lesion there were thirteen dismissed. Such things
would happen from time to time, and they
must be put down, the great object being to preserve dis-
cipline, particularly in a military academy. Nothing on
earth bad given him more pain than to order the discharge
of these youths ; but a great degree of irregularity bad
sprung up—some appeared determined to resist his anxiety
to put down toe ill treatment of the younger cadets, and
nothing was left him but to enforce the discipline of the
establishments. He had in his hand the report of the
Academy, and nothing could be more satisfactory, but one
youth in the whole Report being men:ioned as having mis-
conducted himself, and there being no instance of ill-
treatment of the junior cadets—so that the object for
which the examples had been made had been attained.
With respect to the alteration in the age at which youths
were admitted, tho facts were these : he had looked a
good deal at the state of the Academy, and found, upon
looking back, that full half the youths who were admitted
never pass up to Commissioners ; he therefore appointed
a Committee to inquire into the circumstances, and of
that Committee Sir Alexander Wilson, an officer whose
name he could not mention without a tribute of admiration,
was the President ; and it was on the recommendation of
that Committee that youths were admitted at 15 years of
age, and nothing could be more successful than that mea-
sure had been. Now the Hon. Member had referred to
most libellous and calumnious statements that had ap-
peared in the newspapers, which charged him with having
brought about this state of things, because he had restored
a youth named O'Connell, a relative of the Hon. Member
for Dublin, at the dictation of that gentleman, and another
named Maund, at the dictation of two Tory relatives.
Now Mr. Maund was one of the young gentlemen just
mentioned, and his case was this—he was a remarkably
fine Young man, but unfortunately, by deliberately striking
3 fellow- student, he had so injured him that the boy was
obliged to be sent to an hospital, and therefore he ( Sir H.
Vivian) immediately ordered him to be removed. He re-
fused the application, not of his ‘Vhig uncle, but of a
Noble Lord his Tory uncle, and he refused also an ap-
plication from the highest authority in the Govern-
ment, and would not restore the youth until the
petition he then held in his band, and which he would
read, was presented to him by the Cadets, on their re-as-
sembling after vacation.—(The Hon. and Gallant Member
then read the petition, which expressed the regret of the
petitioners at what had taken place, which they pledged
themselves should not occur again, and prayed for the re-
storation of the youth discharged, on the ground of his
previous high character.) This petition was signed by
every Cadet in the establishment. He (Sir H. Vivian)
went down immediately after receiving it, pointed out to
them that, in a military point of view, it was improper in
them thee to address him ; but, however, that he would
pass over that, and take advantage of the pledge they had
given, and restore the youth. It was, therefore, at the
earnest entreaty of the youths themselves that he had re-
stored the youth, and not, as was represented, in order to
serve his Whig friends. The next was the son of a
distinguished general officer, now in Australia ; and he
wished the Ilonourable and Learned Member for Dublin
was now in his place, as be believed i e was a cousin of the
Hon. Member. At the earnest request of his father, be-
fore be went abroad, he had placed this youth in the aca-
demy, but he was found wanting at the probationary ex-
amination and ordered to be removed ; xnd he now held a
letter in hie hand from the youth, in which ho explained the
cause of his having beets found wanting at the examination,
and said that as his character would be utterly ruined, with
his prospects in life, by his dismissal, he felt confident he
( Sir H. Vivian) would not be offended at the son of an
old and distinguished officer thus throwing himself on his
goodness. Upon receiving this letter he inquired into the
vase, and found the youth had failed in a great measure
from the want of proper education before he was admitted,
and therefore he consented to restore him, and he
thought that he did not by so doing subject
himself to the charges that had been made against
him.--( Hear, hear, hear.) The Honourable Member
having quoted from newspapers various charges against
him, ha would, as shortly as he could, advert to them.—
( C:ies of " No, no.") The Hen. Member then read a
paragraph charging him with having used his patronage
to serve political purposes, and proceeded with respect to
political objects; and his having admitted the children of
his political friends to the Academy. He had not the
slightest hesitation in saying that whenever any of his
friends around him had made applications to him which he
ha I the means of complying with, he bad always had great
pleasure in doing so ; but he had also friends on the other
'tile of the House, for whom he had done the same
thing ; for he had always held that, with respect to
adenes;on to our military force, it was greatly pre.
judicial to it, and of the greatest misfortune
to the country, to regulate it by political bias,
and he never could see any reason why the children of
be-h parties should not go forth together to fight the
oodles of their country,—( Hear, hear.) He could never
see why the sell of a Shaw, a Jocelyn, and an O'Connell,
y
should not go forth together to battle, for by so doing 11
w is sure there would be no harm result to
party,
butgreac
t
. -,,),1 to the country. Now, what was the
case with re-
, -i,-:ct. to Cornwall, Ile was accused of favouring the sons
, of hie: Cornish friends, but there were
only
s the son
I could be called Cornish boys, one of whom five boys vclio
was
i of the Clergyman of a parish in which, he had some
perry, who was opposed to him in politics, and voted ag prnos-
t
him, and another was the son of his Noble opponent
at the
, eleetion. So much for the charge against hint of the ad_mission to the Academy of his Cornish friends. Then with
rese•,:.ct to Devonshire, there was but one Devonshire youth
In the Academy.—(Cries of " No, no," and expressions
of impatience.) Oh, if the House were satisfied that it
was unnecessary to detain them by a refutation of such
charges, he had no wish to do so. Then with respect to
the children of old officers, the general custom had been
to admit about half the number as students of the children
of officers in the different services, and the rest of civilians.
In feet, they must admit civilians to cover the expense, as
they paid higher than others. Of 141 admitted during
the last two years, 78 were children of old officers, being
a larger number than had been admitted at any former
period. He hoped this was a sufficient defence to this
charge.--( Hear, hear.) Another charge to which he
would take the liberty of referring was, that the Master_
General of Ordnance had shown the vilest party spirit
in taking patronage out of the hands of the commanding
1 Officer i and that the Whig Government party were
most contemptible in their spirit and tyrannical in their
actions. Now when he read that, he could not conceive to
what it referred, and he directed his secretary to write
respecting it, and try to discover what he had possibly dare
to occasion such an attack, and Lord Bloomfield anewered
that he had looked into the circumstances, and it did rot
appear that he (Sir H. Vivian) had interfered with she
%es of the commanding officer. However, he (Sir'
• kin) still made further inquiry, and found it referred tII Manes where the commanding officer wanted
to
reit remarkably promising your., man Over the head
o''' 4 he most distinguished soldie'rs of the . '. 4 g been represented to hien by Sir A.NC.77505. and
! d, 77 nied it, stating that he never allowed favouritisml'he
'inz: .oTigher departments of the profession, nor would he
; t in the lower—that he never would permit the old
*Hier to he dealt unfairly with, and that they should
‘lll
niesive promotion in regular rotation, according to the

practice of the Ordnance Department.—( Hear, hear.)
He seas sorry to have trespassed on the House so long on
a matter which was somewhat personal to himself, but it
was at the same time of great consequence to the esta-
blishment. He trusted he had fully vindicated himself
against all the vile and atrocious charges that had been
made against him. With rest let to the readmission of
the youths, nothing could give him more pleasure than to
find that he could do so consistently with the welfare and
discipline of the establishment. lie had put the question
whether or not he could do so to the Committee, who had
4iven it as their opinion that he could not. He had,
however, kept his eye upon them, and if eventually they
were readmitted, it must depend entirely upon their con-
duct, and even then it must be confined to those youths
woo had distinguished themselves by good conduct previ.
ously.—( Hoar, hear.)
Mr. H Uel E wished to know how many of the hundred
youths, who were under eighteen years of age, had obtained
commissions during the two last years?
Sir H. VIVIAN said he had not the return by him at
aresent, but he thought about 25 or 30 in the present year.
There were 125 then at the Academy, and also a great
number of second lieutenants.
M. GOUL BURN said he had no connection with the
army, therefore if he said anything on the subject it would
not be to en:er into military details. He could not, how.
ever, avoid thinking that there must have been something
seriously wrong in the management of this institution, which
rendered it necessary to resort to so severe a measure as
the dismissal of no less than 25 youths of 16 years of age.
He felt sure that the Gallant Officer had acted only under
t sense of duty—that much of the necessity of such a me:-
sure must depend on the age of the parties imp'icated in
nese transactions. If they were of an age at which they
might be easily led astray, he could not help thinking that
expulsion, carrying with it, as it did, such serious consee
enences, was more than the necessity of the case required.
If, on the other hand, they were of an age capable of ap-
preciating the consequences of their conduct, then, how-
ever painful it might be, he could not deny the punish-
ment was unnecessarily severe ; but what he wished to
urge upon his Hon. Friend was, that constant watchfulness
ever the institution would prevent those evils getting to
that height, that to prevent them it was necessary to resort
to such severe measures of punishment. He could not
but think if care were taken, and the progress of these
young men watched, and they received moderate punish-
rn .nt fur the first offence, the necessity would be avoided
of recurring to extreme punishment, which not only
affected them immediately, but all their prospects in life.
Sir H. VIVIAN said the thirteen youths whose names
had been mentioned were expelled a great number of years
age, when a most distinguished officer was at the
head of the Ordnance. The youths now removed were
of the Senior Class, and for the oppression of the Juniors;
and it was a curious fact that during the time the Commit-
tee was sitting, a great degree of oppression was going on,
and there seemed a sort of determination among the youths
ro continue it, and that four who were excluded had com-
mitted the offence while the Committee was sitting.
Mr. GOULBURN explained.
S.r 11. HARDING E said, as an officer, he felt bound
to state his acquiescence in the measure resorted to in the
case of these young men. Mast of them were fifteen, six-
teen, or seventeen years of age, and persisted in their mis
conduct, and he did not see anything his Hon. Friend
could propose, but place the circumstances before a Com-
mittee, and take their Report into consideration ; and he
must say, if he were in the situation of his Right Hon.
Friend, he should think nothing would be more embarrassing
hereafter, and fatal to the discipline of the College, than
to attend to applications for the restoration of
these youths, unless under special circumstances.
No doubt the college was composed of ardent spirits—of
young men who required a severe discipline ; and when
they knew their misconduct would be visited with severe
discipline, it was to be hoped they would reflect upon the
consequences that would attend it. He must confess, at
the same time, the explanation of his Right Hon. Friend
gave him great pain; considering the character of liiiis
Right Hon. Friend, and the long time he bad served n
the military service, he had heard him with great pain con-
descend in that House to enter into details to defend himself
from anonymous attacks of the newspapers. Why, if
public men thought themselves compelled to come to the
House and give explanations on every attack that was
made on them in newspapers and anonymous publications,
not only would the time of the House be wasted, but, in
his opinion, that of men in high stations would be mate-
rially lowered. He did not know what papers they were
to which his Hon. Friend referred, for he had never heard
of or read one of them. He should not oppose going
into Committee, but was sorry that his Right Hon. Friend
had made these explanations, which, in his opinion, his
high character rendered quite unnecessary.
Colonel ANSON said that the Right lion. Master-
General of the Ordnance having been attacked in the
manner in which he bad been, had no alternative but to
adopt the course which he had adopted in defending him-
self. The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had stated,
that in his opinion there must have been great relaxation of
the discipline of the Academy to render these punishments
necessary. Now, he would put it to the Right Hon.
Gentleman, whether it might not be barely possible that
such relaxation of discipline may have taken place before
his Right Hon. and Gallant Friend had come into
office.—( Hear, hear.)
Sir ROBERT INGLIS said that the Hon. and Gal-
lant Officer had made no attack whatever upon the Right
Hon. and Gallant Gentleman opposite. He (Sir R.
Inglis) complained that the House should have entered
into the consideration of this subject at all. He com-
plained not of what the Right Hon. and Gallant Gentle-
man had done out of the House, but of what ho had done
in the House in making these explanations. He could
never approve of making that House a board of review
for the proceedings of the Royal Military Academy.—
(Hear, hear, hear.) He knew that some Honourable
Gentleman might say that because the Academy
was supported at the expense of the State, that therefore
the House had a right not only to inquire into the general
management of it, but to institute an inquiry into any petty
detail connected with each individual student. Unless
such was the conclusion come to, he trusted that never
again would one whole hour of the time of that House be
occupied in such a discussion.
Mr. WARBURTON thought his Right Hon. Friend
the Master-General of the Ordnance had acted perfectly
right. He had, in fact, no option. There was nothing
uncourteous in the observations of the Hon and Gallant
Gentleman opposite, but he had read certain statements
from newspapers reflecting on his Right Hon. and Gallant
Friend, and had asked for explanation.—( Hear.) It was
a price that all men who attained to eminent rank or high
station must pay for their eminence to have their conduct
canvassed, and when it was so canvassed they were per-
fectly right in offering any explanation they might think
fit ; there was nothing humiliating in such conduct. The
Hon. and Gallant Gentleman opposite had considered that
there was something in the conduct of the Military Aca-
demy which required explanation—he was perfectly right
in requesting that explanation. He had very properly
asked a question, to which he had received a most satis-
factory answer.—( Cheers.)
Sir DE LACY EV AN S entirely concurred with his
Hon. Friend who had just sat down. He had listened to
the reply of his Right Hon. and Gallant Friend with the
greatest satisfaction, and although the Hon. arid Gallant
Gentleman opposite had not made any charges against his
Right Hon. and Gallant Friend in bringing this question
forward, yet that Hon. and Gallant Gentleman had alluded
to certain charges which had been made in the newspapers,
therefore his Right Hon. and Gallant Friend was per-
fectly right in replying to these charges. He entirely
concurred with the Right Hon. and Gallant Member for
Launceston in the conviction that
.the high character of
the Master-General of the Ordnance placed him entirely
above imputation, but still that very high character made
him the more anxious to give explanation, and feel the
more acutely any imputation that might be attempted to
jbe cast upon him. The knowledge of the possession of
that high character made hint the more anxious to
sustain it.—(Long-continued cheering.) He concurred
in the observations which had been made on the
subject of the College, and regretted that it had been in.
troduced at all, as he was sure that the present discussion
would not tend to the preservation of the good discipline
of the College. Among those young men who were in-
tended for the military service, it might expected, if any-
where, that youth would be found of strong feelings and
active energetic minds, who would wits difficulty submit
themzelves to command. Ho had, a short time ago, seen
an account of the expulsion of several students from Eton
College—that was not a military college, and, from what
he had heard on the subject, he was not disposed to find
fault with the conduct of the head of that establishment
on that occasion, but he thought the House would admit
that if it was necessary to maintain strict discipline in any
college, it was more particularly so in a military one.—
( Cheers.) I[. a strict discipline were not maintained
among the youths when et college, the consequences to
themselves, when they entered their military career, would
be still more ruinous, as they would be subjected for
brca -hes of discipline to a still more severe punishment,
and which would affect ti eir future prospects still more
severely, as coming upon them at a later period of their
life, when it would be almost impossible far them so to
change their habits as to fit them for entering any other
career.
denied
ehat
ide
mma po
andeopany.
att Ca
earnapi no
n 13D
the° L
RightE R°
Hon.
Site, or brought any charge against him ; hne had merely
asked for an explanation, and he thought he was per-
fectly justified in so doing—he was glad to find, from
what he had said, that the Academy was now in a better
state of discipline, and he hoped that the discipline would
e.t.a:nue to be such as would enable the Right lion. and
Gallant Gentleman, consistently with his duty, to consent
to the restoration of at least some of these young men.
Coloael ANSON explained.
sir TREATMENTTHONAS c OFoc PACKETH R A N
1,,, , b
ePt.
oAr
eS
tSh PASSENGERS.
N G
HouseE R
went
e. u t
into Committee of
tSb'uopply, wished to draw the attention
made of conduct pursued
of the House to complaintsb
o ffi tevehrise hi
n ware
her
Majesty's
whopaeitets.._( Hear, hear, hear.)
service towards persons
be passengers with their
alludedmight tuhatiiiipeenmedtio
These complaints more particularly
terranean steam-packets—and one of the persons ag_
pieeed, a lady, had at length come forward, ard, and affixed
of
fta board one of b
the
grievances
e packets.
which she had
under some
suffered
retriaemd edotorinagataatemn
passage
t
o
He hoped that these statements had been made u
m'sappreheneion or mistake, as they involved theob araeters
of several officers. The system, in his opinion, o
be altered; as it made officers in the navy and army liable
e
to
to be constantly called to a public account for their co n
duet, or submit to be accused of conduct which would he
derogatory to persons of the lowest description, lie
therefore thought the Admiralty should devise some other
means of conducting this branch of the public service_
such, perhape, as by appointing a superintendent to each
packet, so as to relieve officers from their liability, and at
the same time he would be a person to whom passengers
might apply for protection ; as the Admiralty participated
itx the profits, they were bound to afford adequate pro_
tection.
Mr. MORE O'FE RR A LL had heard of no complaints
from any passengers on board her Majesty's vessels, over
which the Admiralty possessed control, and could ask
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