The Sun.
London, England, 1840-01-29 00:00:00

brought against Frost? Not one. The letter was in the
Noble Lord's possession, and no doubt he would produce it.—
(H.,ar, hear.) The Noble Lord must have known of Frost's
connection with the Chartists lcng before he dismissed him from
the Magistracy. Why had he not up to that time (January)
taken steps to suppress those Chartist proceedings ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said steps had been taken befora that
time.

Lord GRAN VILLE SOMERSET—lndependent of Frost's
proceeding, had the Noble Lord done anything to suppress that
dangerous publication, the Vindicator, which had to so alarm-
ing an extent inflamed the minds of the people ? Nothing, until
it was too late. That paper had done much to poison the
minds of the people ; indeed, it was now the opinion of many
that it had done more than anything else towards
promoting the recent outbreaks.—( Hear, hear, hear. )
With regard to what had been stated by his Hon. Friend, the
worthy Alderman, who opened that discussion, in reference to
the County of Monmouth, he could bear his testimony to that
st itement. He believed that the population among o hich the
disturbances had arisen, were in a state of comparative comfort,
and he had reason to think that they were in general a very
fine and honest people; and though he did not wish to say it
toeheir credit, he would mention it as an alarming symptom,
that in the entire of their long march, and during great stress
of weather, they had abstained from all acts of mischief. He
believed that, with very few excettions, no violence had been
committed by them—that they had received no refreshments
which they did not pay for. That seemed to him to be
an alarming feature in the case.—( Hear, hear.) The
whole progress of the insurrection had been marked by
that honesty, that absence of violence, and that determination
to look to the main object only ; and he repeated, that that
was a dangerous symptom in the feelings of that population.
The only exception to their good conduct was, that they
pressed persons to join them in their unlawful purposes. It was
far from being his intention to trespass at any length on the
time of the House, but he could state to them that, at the pre-
sent moment, the feelings of disaffection which had arisen in
those districts had not been put down—there was, at this mo-
ment, a feeling of irritation—there was a want of confidence
in the minds of a large portion of the inhabitants of that coun-
try, which he feared would mar its condition for many years.
There had been, hitherto, no district more prosperous; but he
feared that that prosperity had received a great check. He
did not think that the severity of the law was the only
means of remedying those evils ; but he was sure,
that if the Government did not devise some mode
of preventing the sale of the seditious and blas-
phemous publications which were circulated so largely
through South Wales, force and the rigours of the law would
be unavailing, and they would not have put down that unfor-
tunate spirit which now exists. He believed that there was a
strong feeling in those districts that agitation was not discou-
raged by the Government—he believed he might may, without
wishing to make any attack on the Hon. Member for Dublin,
that when a high judicial situation had been offered to him, it
was felt that agitation was rewarded in Ireland, while in Eng-
land it had been punished. That feeling might be erroneous,
but it certainly existed. Government might tell the Chartists
that their conduct had been wrong, but they would point to the
other side of the Channel, and they would say that the Hon.
Member for Dublin, who had been so honoured, thought he
was right, and that they thought they were right too. The
purposes of that Honourable Gentleman were not less illegal
than theirs. Was not the Union of Ireland and of this country
as binding and as solemn as any of those institutions of England
which the Chartists wished to overthrow ?—( Hear, hear, from
the Opposition Benches.) Those opinions he had just expressed
had been conveyed to him from a source, of whose accuracy
he could not doubt, and whatever might be the angry
remarks they might provoke from the Honourable
Member for Dublin, he could not help stating them to the
House. He did not mean to enter into a discussion of the va-
rious points alluded to by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir G.
Grey. He should, however, make one observation, that, if
it be permitted at. elections to make use of any weapons, it
would also appear from the speech of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, that in Parliamentary proceedings all sorts of logic were
allowable. He alluded to the inferences drawn from the speech
on the Corn-laws, of an election candidate (Mr. Dawson),
which he (Lord . Solnerset) had thought a most extraordi-
nary perversion of all the rules of logic. He had now done,
and had he not felt it his duty, he would not have addressed
those observations to the House.
Mr. HAWES rose and said that in another' place, and at
another time, it had been said that a great country could
not carry on a little war. He was sure, however, that this
debate would show that a great party could carry on a
great war, with little materials at its disposal.—(Hear.)
He had never heard anything so irrelevant to the question
under discussion as the speech of the Noble Lord who had
just addressed the House, and the matter which he had
brought forward. The greater part of the speech was occu-
pied m putting questions to the Noble Lord the Secretary for
the Colonies, which the Noble speaker ought to have put him-
self in a way to answer before coming to the House. This was
to be a great debate—but it was principally to the opinion
which it would produce out of doors they should look. No
party, however, he believed, ever felt more confident as to the
impression likely to be produced on the public mind with regard
to the matter of a debate, than Hon. Gentlemen on his side of
the House felt on the present occasion. They were not going
to let Mon. Gentlemen pass with vague generalities—they
would ask them what were the principles by which
they proposed to govern the country, and the measures they
intended to adopt. They were about to appeal to the coun-
try as to a jury—that jury had, however, already manifested
a decided bias with regard to the question in dispute. Whether
they looked to Edinburgh, to Devonport, Birmingham, or to
Newark—( Hear, hear)—they found that all had sent Mem-
bers to the House of Commons who would support the Govern-
ment on the present occasion; and they had certainly the sin-
gular advantage of being already aware of the sentiments of
those to whom they appealed. He (Mr. Hawes) was at the
same time prepared to show, that under the present adminis-
tration of the empire, the material condition of the people had
much improved. There had been two or three periods, he
should observe, in modern times, when attacks had been made
by Hon. Gentlemen on acts of useful and liberal policy. The
measures of Mr. Huskisson had been assailed by the same
party who now assailed the present Ministry. He was now
ready to show, that during the period of Whig Admi-
nistration—that is for the last nine years—the country
had suffered no deterioration in the elements of its
presperity.—( Hear, hear.) And, if that were so, it would
be for Hon. Gentlemen opposite to show what course they
would follow which could heighten that prosperity, or which
could avert that distress which he was at the same time pre-
pared to admit existed. The great object of Gentlemen on the
other side was to change the principles on which the country
was governed. They had twice an opportunity of seizing on
the administration of affairs—they bad once tried the tone and
temper of the country, and they had been driven from power by
a vote of the House of Commons. On a subsequent occasion
they had endeavoured to assume the reigns of power, but they
had fallen from their hands. It Has certainly a striking circum-
stance, that on a former occasion to which he alluded, namely,
in the year 1835, when the great object of the Right Hon.
Baronet opposite had been to form a Government calculated to
obtain the respect of the people, he had discarded old Tory
principles, and had not attempted to frame an Administration on
the principles of his party. The Noble Lord the Member for
Lancashire, and the Right Hon. Member for Pembroke, were
the Gentlemen to whom he had applied on that occasion, both
of whom had gone over to the other side of the House, from that
side of the House to the other, while they avowed that they
Lad not changed their principles. The Hon. Baronet must
then have changed his.—(," No, no," from an Hon. Member
on the Opposition benches.) Did the Hon. Member then mean to
say that the Noble Lord the Member for Lancaehire and the
Right Hon. Members had changed their opinions—for there
must have been a change somewhere. He thought, however,
some reasons should be assigned for that change. Was it to be.
said that the material elements of their prosperity had been
injured or weakened by the course pursued by the Govern-
ment? He would take the liberty of stating to the House a
few facts, which he had obtained by referring to the statistical
papers lying on their table. If he could infer what was the
state of the country by referring to the consumption of excise-
able commodities, he found a steady increase in them. He
would refer to some accounts on that subject, proceeding from
a Right Hon. Friend of his—the tormer President of the Board
of Trade. In the article of tobacco he found that there had
been an increase, since 1830, of 15 per cent., in sugar there
had been an increase of Bi, in tea of 3 per cent., in coffee of
124, and in soap of 33 per cent. In spirits there had
been an increase of 24 per cent. ; and in another
article on which the duty had been reduced, namely
cocoa, there was the large increase of 39 per cent. In
cotton wools there was an increase since 1832 to 1838, of 32
per cent. So far no decree had taken place in the material
productions of the country. In the article of timber there had
been an increase since 1430 of 5 per cent. There were various
other commodities to which he could refer, but he would refer at
present to the shipping interest. With regard to steam-vessels
which had come into existence in modern times, he found that
there had been 331) in the year 1830, and 600 in the year 1836,
while in the year 1833 there were 810. With reference to the
general shipping of the country, he should observe that in the
year IM4 we were the great carriers of Europe, and that we
then entirely commanded the seas. We had at the time a
shipping of 2,414,000 tons. In the year 1827 a new Act had
been passed, by which a great number of sh ps had been struck
off the registry ; yet in the year 1838 we had a shipping of
2,420,000 tons, being a slight increase on the tonnage of 1814. He
need not allude to the large investment of capital in railways,
and to the number of them which now covered the face of the
country. In 1830 there were sixty-one railways, but there
were now 103. With regard to the revenue in 1830 it was
50,000,000/. ; in 18,38 it was 47,000,000/. ; during the time
6,000,0001. of taxes had been repealed. He found that in 1839
there were 21,000,000/. invested in caving banks, while in 1839
there were 23,300,000/. The number of depositors was now
49,000, and the amount of deposits was 1,300,0001. a-year.
The amount of annuities paid was 12,000/. a year ; and the
number of societies paying them amounted to 300. .Perhaps,
however, Hon. Gentlemen opposite might wish to turn from
the internal condition of the country to the foreign policy of
the Government. —( Hear, from Mr. Colquhoun. ) He was glad
to hear that cheer from the Hon. Member for Kilmarnock. Was
he dissatisfied with the Austrian Treaty? He ( Mr. Hawes) had
taken some pains to ascci tain the results which followed from
that measure. He thought it might serve as an example to
all future statesmen; and that it hid been more fruitful of good
fleets than any other event he could point out. The results of
une pp constitutionalopt 1
ports
t ra
tta,ntreatya
with,
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influenceday,
grounds
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by
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the Austrian Treaty, as fir as regarded the Tariff and the Qua-
t
rantine
shills
in that
ti
.r‘
caerl,eatiarssneaogdmtfo
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Laws, had largely increased the amount of British ship-
sugar, and various other articles. These ships had previously
ft
l'Afe
Governmenta tL wasnd oan G Government
liberal motives, was sure to be taken advantage of, and to
be most vexatiously opposed by the Hon. Gentleman on the
opposite side of that House.—( Cheers from the Ministerial
aide, and cries of " " No, no, from the Opposition.) There
was one one subject touched upon by the lion. Baronet to which
he could not help alluding ; that Honourable Baronet spoke
of agitation, and ascribed it to a party at his (Mr.
Hawes's) side of the House; but did the lloneurable
Gentleman recollect the agitation that was got up against the
Poor-laws? Bathe (Mr. Hawes) thought he would not be in-
clined to allude to the question of Poor-laws, after the sever:,
castigation which he got with reference to that subject—
died with great caution by that party who were never un-
willing to resort to that alternative, wherever their prejudices
manifested so bitter an hostility to the Minis-
ever
oppositeside of that House, who never
Libe-
ral Government.—( Hear, hear, hear.). N_ o party
try as the
to appeal to
'ices of the people.—( Great cheer-
ing.)the passions and the preys(
he thought it
He bad no hesitation in saying
shrunk from any opportunity, however unworthy,
opinions generally support.---( Hear, hear.) The
grounded upon
dis-
graceful for any party to stoop to such means, in order to
ad-
vancedob-
tain
by the Opposition on that occasion, were
which had little
imagination, so
or no foueda• ion but in their own fertile
the most exaggerated statement of dangers, .
that he could only suppose them to be honest at the ex-
pense of their understandings.—( Cries of " Hear, hear,")
He should take the liberty of referring to one or two of the
misrepresentationforthecene:
Minutes of the Privy Council, not for the purpose of entering
of the grosspeoudot hSfaueri
upon
Trieste,ose
into the religious portion of the subject, but of complaining of
made of the benefi-
cent measure which was proposed by this Government. The
Committee of the Privy Council brought forward and main-
tained a measurelnspection of Schools upon
the Government plan. It was then distinctly declared the
grounds that would induce them to give their attention to
whicha
lv4.a was
these schools ; it was made a sine qua non, that they should
be carried on upon the clearest Christian principles--( Hear.)