The Sun.
London, England, 1847-05-01 00:00:00

LoNnori4r, SATTITTIDAV PVENIVer, MAY 1, P447.

I;
sioners, with reference to the inquiry into the Andover
Union, those proceedings appear to have been irregular
and arbitrary, especially in respect to the dismissal of
Mr. Day and Mr. Parker. It was now eight months
since that report was laid upon the table of the House,
and still the same Poor-law Commissioners remained in
full power, inflicting the same cruelties on the poor of
the country generally as those they inflicted upon the
poor in the Andover Union. Her Majesty's Government
had screened these Commissioners eight months, sod
they were now attempting to screen them still further.
The notice had been a long time on the paper of the
House, and yet the Government had not introduced the
Bill. It had been put on the list last night, when the
Right Honourable Baronet knew that it could not
be discussed It had also been postponed; till next
Monday, when there were four or five other mo-
tions which had precedence. If the Government
desired the Bill to go forward, why not have
fixed it for Friday night, when there were no other
motions on the paper? He wanted a pledge from the
Government that they would fix a night of theirs for
the discussion of the question, giving fair notice to the
opponents of the New Poor-law to be present. Unless
they did so, he weuld himself bring the conduct of the
Poor-law Commissioners under the consideration of the
House.

Sir G. GREY said, that when he gave notice of his
intention of introducing. the Bill he had no inten-
tion of taking the discussion on it then, 'but to
make a statement of its provisions, and fix a
night when the whole discussion could be taken.
He had fully expected that time would have been allowed
for the statement last night, but the lateness of the dis-
cussion which had arisen prevented him doing so. lie
had postponed the Bill, therefore, till Monday next, the
earliest Government day, in the hope that after the
Factory Bill was disposed of there would be time
enough for the statement which he had to make.
After he had made his statement, and the Bill was in-
troduced, he would name a day for -the secJnd reading,
when the discussion would be taken.

precedent for others to follow. He believed that the
more correct course would have been to go into Corn
mittee, when it would have been his duty to make a
statement as soon as the Speaker left the chair with re-
ference to this grant. He hoped that the
House would agree to go at once into Corn-
mittee--(Hear, hear)—and then, in accordance with
the torms which haq been established in that House,
he should avail himself of that opportunity of making
such a statement as the lion. and Learned Gentleman
would be well able to answer. At present he declined
saying anything farther until the House had resolved
itself into Committce.

The winery was then cleared for a division, when the
House divided, and there appeared— _

For the aniendment l4
Against it
Mujurity —lB9

The amendment was consequently negatived.
On our re-admission to the gallery, we found
Mr. HUIIE speaking, who said that the Hon. Gen-
tleman had stated that, in his opinion, it was wise to
make this grant; in his (Mr. Hume's) opinion, it was
not; but the proper time to make this amendment would
have been when the motion was put from the Chair for
going into Committee. But it should be recollected,
that those who voted for going into Committee voted for
giving money for making ruilroads.—(Cries of " No,
no.") Yes, but he asserted that it was, for the House
had decided upon going into Committee, and that Com-
mittee was for the purpose of giving money to rail-
roads—(Repeated cries of " No, ne")—and these who
voted for going into Committee who did not vote for
giving money to railroads, would have placed them-
selves in a state of stultification.—(Derisive cheers.)
The House then went into Committee.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that in bringing this matter before the House before
they went further in the debate, he thought it would be
necessary to make a statement of what the case actually
was. It was true that he had made that statement the
other night, but it was at so late an hour that it might
not possibly have been quite understood. There were
two distinct subjects on this question, yet though dis-
tinct of such a nature as to be connected with each
other. The real question before the Committee was, as
to whether the House she .uld grant specified sums to the
Commissioners of Public Works to be expended in the
formation of railroads in Ireland. At an early hour the
other morning he had an opportunity of making a state-
ment on this subject, nut at any great length it was
true, but sufficient to remove the apprehensions under
which several Hon. Gentlemen laboured, with respect to
the conduct and proceedings of Government. He be-
lieved the statement he mate was correct, as far as it
related to the currency. He stated then, and he must
state now, that the present depression was in no degree
owing to the operation of the Banking Act; but it arose
from other causes. Hon. Gentlemen must have observed
from the public papers, that the state of the Bank had
improved during the last week. On the 24th of April,
the balance sheet of the Bank presented a considerable
improvement over that of the 17th. It showed that the
liabilities were diminished, while the means of meeting
the liabilities had increased. They had, therefore, reason
to be more satisfied of the groundlessness of the fears to
which he had alluded there three days ago. He had
bean in communication with the Governor of the Bank
of England that morning, and was happy to say that
its condition was very much improved—(Hear)—and
from a feeling of this improvement the Bank of Eng-
land has been enabled within the last week, on two se-
parate (lays, to give increased facilities to the money
market—(Hear, hear)—and he was happy also to be
( nabled to say, with respect to the statement made a
few days ago, to the effect that the condition of the money
market caused great distress in the north of England,
that the condition of those portions of the north had
been improved in consequence of those increased
facilities.—(Hear. hear.) 11 appeared from the state-
ments which he had heard that more bank notes were
circulated, and more bills discounted, than those
imagined who entertained the misapprehension which
he had contradicted ; and it appeared that even it the
pressure had been greater than it was, it could have
safely been borne.—(Cheers.) He would not allude
to the increased price of stocks, as this might have been
caused by circumstances, which could not have been
foreseen—that was a circumstance on which no one could
have calculated, and, therefore, he did not take it into ac-
count. Exchanges were improving, and the last news from
America was of an important character. He thought it
right to say thus much, in order that the apprehension
that had been created might be removed.—(Hear.) lie
would now turn to the plan of the Government, and at
the outset he wished to correct a statement which had
gone abroad, that the Government intended to raise an
additional loan, for the purpose of making the advances
they proposed. In reply to the Bill of the Noble Lord,
he stated that the Government were about to take mea-
sures to relieve the distress in Ireland, by providing em-
ployment for the poor le, by employing them upon the
relief works. He stated when he proposed these mea-
sures, that it was the desire of the Government to foster
private enterprise in the employment of the people, and
be stated that for this purpose two Bills would be intro-
duced, one of which had since received the sanction of the
House ; it was called the Improvement of Landed Pro-
perty Bill, for the purposes of which 1,00,000/. was
proposed to be advanced by the Government.
For the other Bill, the reclamation of waste
lands, they proposed to vote another 1,000,0001..
Now he stated further, when he proposed to take this
loan of 8,000,0001., that a portion of that sum was to be
applied for the advancement of these Bills, which would
be afterwards repaid, and, therefore, that so much of the
sum should be subtracted from the whole amount. Hav-
ing stated so much he was at a loss to understand upon
what foundations it was urged that additional Exchequer
Bills were about to be issued by him. In the course of
discussion which had taken place on these two measures
it was generally agreed that by far the most important
of them, was that for the improvement of landed
property in Ireland. So the sum increased from
1,000 0001. to 1,151,0001. But in the course of
this discussion it was found that a very great
difference of opinion existed respecting the
advantages to be derived from the Waste Lands Bill, as
it was originally proposed to be a compulsory mea•
sure. After considerable deliberation, it was determined
to aeandon the compulsory nature of the Bill, although,
when they did so, they were aware that they were
abandoning a great portion of the Bill. The measure
for the reclamation of waste lands bad been found ex-
tremely difficult, and therefore the Government had
thought it the best course to abandon the measure, as far
as the present session was concerned. With regari to
the relief works, he was happy to state that a great re-
duction had recently taken place in the expenditure, and
the number of parties employed. In March last, there
were 734,000 persons employed. Before the end of
March they had been reduced 20 per cent. This left the
number 579,000. A further reduction had since taken
place, and by the Ist of Mey he expected that the num-
ber would be reduced to 280,000. Thus, while on the
beginning of March the number was 734,000, there
would be on the 3d of May 280,000. And while this
great redo, den had taken place, he was happy to say
that very little had been advanced to assist in the pay-
ment of wages in other respects than on these works.
The accounts which had been just received from Ireland,
showed that a much larger amount of land was sown
than before ; and wheat, both spring as well
green crop. And at the same time, in a great part of
the south and the south-west of Ireland, the ordinary
quantity of potatoes had already been planted.—(llear,
hear.) Nay, not only was it found that there were
plenty of potatoes foe the purposes of seed, but they
were actually appearing in many places as an article of
food. The relief-works, with some few exceptions,
would in a short time be reduced; but the people would
still be engaged on unfinished works or on important
public works that would yet be found necessary to be
constructed. With respect to that part of the country
which bad been under the operation of the public works,
he had to inform the House that many of the roads
made, especially in the wilder parts of the country, were
in the highest degree beneficial. That benefit also would
be felt in a higher degree in the time coming, and the
great line of railway to which they resolved to advance
the larger portion of the loan was, as the House knew, '
the great trunk which united the west and south of
, Ireland, and Dublin with Limerick and Cork. During
the last year this company had applied to the Treasury
for the loan of 500,0001. to complete their line, but the
Treasury, in the then circumstances of the country,
and at the rate of interest which was charged, did
not feel itself justified in granting this application ;
but convinced of the great importance of the
line, they recommended that the Loan Commis-
sioners should advance 250,0001. The Great
Southern and Western Company had not seen
fit to accept that sum, and for that year,
therefore, the matter was abandoned. On application
being made to the Treasury, the Government desired
the public works Loan Commissioners to decide upon
the application, and they reported favourably of the
securities offered by the company, anti stated that if they
had the funds at their own disposal they would not have
the slightest dejection to advance the money themselves.
The Right Hen. Baronet then proceeded to read the re-
port of the Public Works Loan Commissioners upon the
subject. The whole line is to be 200 miles in length, and
of these 200 miles there are already 56 completed, the
traffic upon the 56 miles being so great as to allow the
ordinary per centage for the working of the line, and to
pay a sufficient rate of interest in addition to afford an
ample security for the whole advance.—(Hear,
hear). The reason why the company made the first
application was because the rate of interest in the
money market was at the present so high. They had
called up every call they were empowered to make by
Act of Parliament, and some of the calls had even been
paid in anticipation. They hoped by the assistance
of the Government to be enabled to open the line
to Limerick, to Melton, and to Cork, within two years.
being a distance of abeet 115 miles. The whole sum to
be advanced by the Government, and the calls to be paid
up, would be expended in the earthworks of the line,
and in the employ merit of labour by this means, or equal
to double the amount advanced by the Government,
would thus be expm ii :ed in labour in Ireland, it being
expressly stipulated that for every 100,000/. advanced by
the Government, 100.000/. would be raised by the
company itself. The sum of 83.0001. vas also proposed
for the Waterford and Kilkenny. Railway, and the sum
of 36,000/. for the Dublin anti Drogheda Railway. In
the last session of Parliament a sum of 50,0001. was
voted for the purpose of promoting useful works in Ire-
land, on condition that those in Ireland who applied for
an advance under the Bill would advance one-half—that
is to say, a sum equal in amount to the sum which they
required. At that time there were not any applications
made under the terms of the Bill, but about three weeks
agoP p
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tolicatgoiofnu:vt:s made for an advance from the sum
The sum applied
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Th for
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out of a balance of 40,0001., not of the
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to carry out that object was

um orig. inane vote d; which hod 'not. as yet been iii spose
of. They h:ei found that none of the works were so ad-
vantageous a; those which came under the head of
fishery, piers, and harbours, for they not only employed
the people, tut they directly increased the supply ot
food. As nothing, therefore, in the nature of public
works has been found so directly beneficial as the inotiey
expended under this head, they proposed to give another
advance for that put pose.—(Hear, hear.) They
proposed to advance to the Upper Shannon improve-
ment 10,0001. There would then remain a sum of
40,000/. at the disposal of the House, and it
was his opinion that one of the most desirable
means of employine that money was in the
encouragement of the fisheries in Ireland. The whole
of this sum of 40 0001., it was now proposed sheuld be
directed to the fisheries, piers, and harbours of Ireland.
Such was the subject of the second resolution which he
had to propose:—" That the Commissioners of her
Majesty's Treasury be authorised to direct advances to
be made, out of the Consoadated Fund of the United
Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. to the Commis-
sioners for the issue of loans for public works and
fisheries, &c., to an amount not exceeding 620,0001. in
the whole, to be by them advanced towards defraying
the expense of making the following railways in Ireland,
viz.:—The Great Southern and Western Railway, the
Waterford and Kilkenny Railway, and the Dublin and
Drogheda Railway. And that a sum of 40,0001. should
be divided for the purpose of promoting fisheries, piers,
and harbours in Ireland."
The resolution was then put from the chair.
Mr. GOULBURN was surprised to hear the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer state that it was the intention
of the Government to withdraw the funds which had
been voted for the purpose of reclaiming the waste lands
of Ireland. He was happy to hear that the panic in the
money market had subsided, anti that the Bank was now
enabled to afford every necessary accommodation. Ile
quite agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet, the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer, that it was highly desirable that
the Bank should act with prudence. lie thought that
not only the Bank, but also the House was called upon
to act with prudence. And it was because he thought
so, that he telt it necessary to make a few remarks on
the resolution submitted to the House, in order that the
House might, by being forewarned, be. also forearmed.—
(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet had said
that the sum of 625,0001., to be advanced to three
railway companies in Ireland would be advanced out el
the general fund raised by loan for the general relief of
the distress of Ireland. He thought if such a course
were to be adopted great inconvenience would result.
There was nothing that the House should guard more
against than an augmentation of the charges upon the
Consolidated Fund, because the effect of those charges
would be necessarily to lower the balances in the Ex-
chequer, and increase in the same proportion the amount
of the quarterly deficiency bills ; and the Bank having to
meet this increased demand upon it, would be unable to
afford that assistance which was needed for the interests
of the general trade and commerce of the country.—
(Hear, hear.) There was also another point of diffi-
culty in making grants to these railways, which was,
that having afforded assistance to these companies, how
could the Government refuse similar assistance to others.
These companies, it appeared, required to borrow
1,000,000/. of money, they would have to go into the
market, and perhaps borrow it at the rate of 8 per cent.,
but the Government slipped in and said they would lend
them half of that sum at 5 per cent.; the company were
thus enabled to borrow its million at an average of 61
per cent., while a rival company, not having the assistance
of the Government, would be compelled to pay the full
8 per cent. Besides, this company having succeeded in
obtaining half of their money at 5 per cent., could afford
to pay more than its rival company for the remaining
halt, which they might require; and they would thereby
obtain an undue and unfair udvantage over their com-
petitors. It appeared to him that great caution and
prudence were necessary in measures of this kind, and
unless great determination be shown by the Govern-
ment in refusing applicants for similar advances, the
most serious evils would be certain to be the conse-
quence. He thought that, although the panic was over-
rated, and although it was true that the country was in
a prosperous condition, yet he saw enough to induce
him to call upon the Government to proceed with pru-
dence in future. The country was in a state, for which
no antecedent period showed a parallel. One of the
greatest calamities that ever happened, was now press-
ing upon the country, and not only on this country,
but every other nation in Europe. Added to this,
there was another matter which added to their difficul-
ties, and called npon theta for extraordinary caution.
There was the railway system, which greatly affected
the capital of the country, and locked it up in that in-
vestment which for a considerable period made no re-
turn. There could be no doubt that the capital of last
year's railway had not yet affected the floating capital
of the country so much as would be felt in future. The
scarcity of food, also increased the necessity of import,
and greatly aggravated the difficulties under which the
country was labouring. There war, besides, the defi-
ciency- of the cotton crop, which should be added to
the pressure from other sources on the energies of the
country. It was, therefore, upon all these considerations,
that he was induced to call upon the Government to
proceed with great caution in dealing with the monetary
affairs of the country. Already a large amount of
money had been advanced to Ireland, and if he might
calculate on the future, the money which had been ad-
vanced would be insnfficient to meet the exigencies of
the case. The expenses of the country were increased.
In January last, there was a balance in the Exchequer
of nine millions; and now, in April, there were but five;
and if this balance was to go on decreasing it would be
necessary for the Government to draw upon the Bank,
and so disable it from applying its capital to the accom-
modation of the commerce and trade of the country. Ho
wished to explain that in pointing out these dangers his
.l jest was not to embaracs the Government, but to in-
culcate the necessity of timely prudence and the utmost
caution.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. F. FRENCH saw no reason why money should
not be given to other railways, as well as the three which
had been selected, provided sufficient security was given
for the loan. According to the Right on. Gentleman,
there would not be more than 280,000 men employed on
the public works in Ireland after the Ist May. With
respect to the works on which the men had been em-
ployed, he understood it would take 3i millions to
complete them. He denied the statement which had
been made, that private labour absorbed those labourers
who were dismissed from the public works. The middle
class in Ireland were rapidly leaving the country, for
the gentry were unable to give them employment. Ile
would like to know if the expenses of the pesti
lence which was now raging in Ireland,
was included in the 8,000,000/. which had
been stated as the money to be advanced ?
The lion. Gentleman then read a number of extract=,
setting forth the great increase of fever in Ireland. In
Sligo fever had extended to the main streets, and it had
committed the most creadful ravages in Fermanagh,
Waterford, Dungarvat, Armagh, and Cork, where
thirty-six bodies had been buried in one grave, and 320
coffins had been sold for the poor, in St. Nicholas parish,
in a few days ; one hospital was filled constantly, four
persons with surgeons certificates having been obliged
to be left at the door, and more presented themselves
for admission in the morning. Ile hoped, however, that
the money proposed to be advanced would not form a
part of the loan of 8,000,0001.
Mr. M. GORE was strongly in favour of the measure.
Ireland had got mineral resources, which only required
the aid of capital to develops, and as private interference
had been discouraged, it was the bounden duty of the
State to step forward and to afford a stimulus to the
employment of the unemployed in profitable labour like
railways. In England they had voted money for the
draining of the fens, and it was but right that such
assistance should be extended to Ireland when so much 1
good would be accomplished by so doing. Ireland was
a great expense to this country. For instance, the
keeping up of a large staff of soldiers and police, but
what a vast sum of money would be saved it troops
could be removed from place to place by railway. Ile
quoted the opinion of the Governor-General of India, to
show that in India 60,0001 a year would be saved if
troops could be conveyed by railway in India; and if
this was praPticable in India, how much
res more so
to the would
it be in Ireland.—(llear, hear.) With pect
argument that agricultural districts would not defray the
expence of constructing lines, he instanced the South-
ampton and Peterborough Railway, which traversed a
purely agricultural district, as profitable speculati n.
lie also quoted the opinion of Mr. Pete, the large con-
, tractor, who had had great experience in the construction
of railways, not only in this country, but in France and
Belgium, to show that agricultural railways invariably
turned out profitable ; and it was, therefore, not too
much to expect that the resources of Ireland would be
developed by railways in like manner. They would
tend also to increase and render more valuable the
excellent fisheries of Ireland. The lion. Gentleman
read an extract from a work by Mr. Maccullech.
o show that fisheries were materially improved by
railways; and also one of the letters of Mr. Foster, the
Times Commissioner, in favour of the construction of
piers and harbours for the promotion ot fisheries. They
would enable men to go easily out to sea, and, therefore,
he thought they would do better by spending money in
giving them those facilities, instead of spending money
in feeding them in idleness, or at unprofitable tasks.—
(Hear, hear.) Dr. Rush, the clergyman of Caddar, in
the eeighbourhooi of Galway, strongly urger, in a
letter, the censtruttion of piers and harbours, and the
construction of caring stations. The Government de-
served the greatest praise fer the proposed construction
of those curing starions. Dr. Rush, by the aid of some
benevolent persons, had been enabled to send several men
out to sea, and the fish they had taken was worth 800/.,
and it was eagerly bought up by persons about
the place.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore, it could not be
said that the Irish were wanting in energy, and were
afraid to brave the elements in order to obtain their
living by severe toil.—(Hear, hear.) They only stood
in need of the mesas to enable them to work for their
living. And there was nothing in the condition of Ireland
which was worse than other countries at a tortrier period.
For instance, Scotland and Wale:, had been at former
periods in a most listressed state, so much so t:lat both
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it
was unfortunate that such a lengthened period should
have elapsed with a better and wiser system having
heen adopted. He looked however on the present
measures as a step in the right direction, and it was for
this, and the other reasons which he had urged, that he
would vote for the measure of her Majesty's Govern-
inept. He honed to see the day when Ireland would be
a blessing and a safeguard to England, and when they
should reap a rich harvest for the steps which they were
then about to take.

Mr. W. COLLETT said that he did not regret not
having been able ;o address the House upon the previous
occasion, when tte House entered . into a discussion on
he principles of the Bill, as his Noble Friend, the
Member for Linn, had fully argued the question,
and left nothing further to be Advanced.

The principal objection which was then urged
'against his Noble Friend, was the impossibility
of securing the money to be lent; that, however, had
been admitted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer as
easy of accomplishment; here, then, was the principal,
and almost the only argument which was strongly urged
lagainstlit annihilated. It had also been admitted that t'.e
Exchequer Loan Commissioners could lend a sum of
20,0001., this had been denied on the former occasion.
The Hon. Gentleman concluded, by saying he would
support the Bill.
Mr. CAYLEY, believing that the present was a
statesmanlike measure, he could not withhold his sup-
port from the Government measure. Fr-an the turn
which the debate had taken, it appeared to him the com-
mercial state of the country was the real question which
they were now debating, and whether the bank charter
of 1844 had really answered its purpose—that purpose
was threefold—first, that the Bank should maintain its
credit untainted ; secondly, that its stability should be
ensured ; and thirdly, that the country should
not be exposed to this monetary fluctuation,
which of late had occasioned so much alarm.
He asked the country what had been the state of the
banking department of the Bank of England. He feared
that it was nut in so flourishing a state as it was thought.
Ruinous fluctuations took place in trade, and in: tend of
improving, the banking department became worse. No
doubt the framers of the Act would be very glad to
throw aspersions upon the Bank of England, and he con-
fessed that he thought his Right Hen. Friend had not
dealt fairly with them on the subject. His Right Hon.
Friend said that the alarm which was felt in the country
was unnecessary, and that there was plenty of money in
the country. Eli thought that the causes of the depres-
sion which existed in the country had not 'oeen fairly
appreciated. The country had seen at a critical moment '
that the Bank was compelled to go into the
market to supply the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
and they naturally became alarmed at the
circumstance. Immediately succeeding that, when
the Bank refused all discount, was not that sufficient to
create alarm? What was the consequence? Every-
body who had a note determined to keep that note.
Out of what was the four millions which had been
taken, supplied? Was it out of the notes of the public
or the notes of' reserve ? It was evident, that if the
till of the Bank was supplied out of the notes of reserve,
that the reserve itself must be shaken. The Bank never
before refused discount, and was not that sufficient to
shake the confidence of the mercantile interest in the
country? and that he believed to be the cause of the
panic which had existed. If there were, as it was said,
fourteen millions in reserve in the Bank of England,
and only seven or eight millions in circulation, was it
not a bad system which, by keeping so much money idle
should chec-k the individual operations of the country. His
Right Hon. Friend blamed the Bank for this. Was it
only upon the Bank that this evil should be charged ?
The system was one which, like Midas, in the midst of
gold, produced starvation. With every deference to his
Right Hon: Friend's superior information, it appeared to
him that the Bank was not to blame, but that it had
skilfully managed most difficult and complicated machi-
nery. In August 1846, the Bank had a maximum of
bullion, and according to his Right Hon. Friend, the
Bank ought to have lowered the rate of Discount. The
Bank did so, and pushed out 21,000.6001., but in strict
accordance with the system professed. by his Right Hon.
Friend, it ought to have pushed out 26,000,000/. The
Bank did not do so, and acted most wisely in not going
to that extent in sending out its money through the
country. It had gone as far as it could in prudence
with the system, but it exercised a very wise
discretion in not going too far. What was the condi-
tion of the Bank of F ranee, the state of trade at the
time, and the state of the people ? The Bank, in all
probability, prevented a very serious evil at the time.
The question which they had to discuss was, which was
right ? The Bank or the system. If the Bank had in
1846 pushed out more notes, the state of the country,
instead of being sound at present, would have been the
very reverse. In the spring of this year, when the sys-
tem called for the Bank to apply the screw, the Bank
acted upon a contrary principle, and again proved that
its discretion was more to be trusted to than the system
which was to be pursued under the Act, He thought,
after all these examples, that it was but fair to infer
that it was the system which had failed, and
not the Bank. In the present depression of
all trade in the City—when East India Bills were, in
some instances, undiscountable—or only discountable at
16 per cent., when the ordinary bills of commerce were
virtually not to be discounted, arid when all credit was
suspended, the effects of this sound system were found,
out, and if such were the effects of this sound system he
could only say that the sooner they returned to the old
and unsound system the better.—(Cheers.)
After a few words from Mr. CHAPLIN, in support of
the measure,

Sir W. CLAY said that his Right Hon. Friend had
stated that in September last the Bank ought to have
pushed out its notes, and reduced its discount to two
per cent. That would have been bad banking to force
out money, and thus encourage careless speculation.
His Right Hon. Friend had, however, defended the
conduct of the Bank during the present year, when
there was a drain of money and bullion, the
Bank had not increased its rate of discount, so
that as far as his Right Honourable Friend's
defence of the Bank went it was of no value.
In the year 1846 the imports were very great; showing,
a considerable excess over the importation of 1845. As'
far as the Custom House could afford any guide to the
amount, the imports in 1845 were about 20,000,0001.; while
in 1846 they were 21,840,000/. The same was observable
in the importation of the raw material of our manufac-
tures in the same year; fur while articles of food had
greatly increased, the articles of raw material had di-
minished. This year again, there would be a very large
excess of imports, although, no doubt, that ultimately
orders would come for goods, and the exports would be
equalised to the imports. Still, in the mean time the
exchange must be balanced by specie. No other plan
of meeting the difficulty would suffice. Neither a pure
gold currency nor an issue of notes would have avoided
the rise of prices and the state of things to which he
had referred. Notwithstanding al that had been said
about the measure of 1844, he was persuaded, had it not
been passed this country would not have been so well able
to meet the crisis as it was, and when it came it would
have lasted much longer. He maintained the soundness
of the measure of 1819, the object of which was simply
to provide for the convertibility of paper into gold at any
time when it might be required. He believed that the
Bill of 1844, which regulated the issues of paper in pro-
portion to the gold held by the banks, had induced a
more healthy system of banking and business, and the
country was in a far better condition in many respects
than it would otherwise have been. The operation of
this measure ought not to be charged with the present
state of the money market, but rather they should attri-
bute the crisis to the great imports of provisions which
had taken place in the last two years, and the extensive
application of the wealth of the country to the purpose
of railway construction. He believed that they would
with caution get out of their present difficulty, though
he did not expect for a long time that they would be able
to procure money at such a low interest as it had been
obtained for some time past. He had been anxious thus
far to trespass on the House to state his views of the real
cause ,f the present state of their monetary system.
Mr. ROEBUCK said the proposition they had before
them, was to grant a sum of 620.000/. for the construc-
tion of Irish railways. Several Hon. Members had
spoken on the currency and the state of trade, but no
one seemed to enter into the real question before the
House. The Hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets had
made an excellent speech on the state of the money
market, and the causes which had led to it, and here
was the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of thue,
Exchequer, proposing to aggravate the evil,
further derange the monetary market by advancing
and
van andcig c n this
large sum ot money. It was a course
unjust, not only to the people of this wcoUntryp, but the
other parties in Ireland, who were not to participate
the grant. He had certainly been much surprised at the
speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for
the University of Cambridge, who, while he had
spoken decidedly against the appropriation of the money,
still meant to vote for it. He was desirous, however,
that it should be taken out of the eight millions already
voted for Ireland. Now, when the Right Hon. the
Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed that 620,0001.
should be deducted from the eight millions that were
originally, voted for the relief of the people of Ireland,
he should like to know what were the different circum-
stances in the state of that country, and in the intensity
of the distress, that warrantee film wahlus aest
diversion. But supposing the Right Hon. Baronet spoke
in this way. (The Hon. Member for Bath here read a
long extract from the speech of the Right Hon.
the Chancellor of the Exchequer on proposing the
grant of eight millions for the relief of distress in Ireland.)
Ho believed that there was nothing to justify the princi-
pl,3 laid down in the proposition of the Right Hon.
Gentleman, as they did not know what the harvest
might bring forth, he thought it was sacrificing all that
was just and right and honourable to a false expediency
to accede to this proposition. He felt himself called
upon to divide the Committee upon this question, for he
did not think that which had been hardly won by the
intelligence, and by the sweat of the Englishman's brow,
should be frittered away in this idle and unthinking
manner.
Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE said that he fully
sympathised in the difficult and embarrassing
circumstances in which the Government were placed.
Something, he thought, was wanting in grasp of
thought, but no one would deny that,the measures of the
Ministry were founded on good intentions, however de-
ficient they might be in wisdom. The poor-law bad
been passed as a measure calculated to improve the
social condition of Ireland. But what were the other
measures that were required to carry that previous mea-
sure into effect ? Was this 620,0001. to be the maximum
of assistance that was to be given to that unhappy coun-
try ? But it was said that 1,500,0001. had been voted to
improve the lands of Ireland. True, one million and a
half was given to the Irish landlords,
Mr. F. FRENCH—Not given, lent.
Mr. B. OSBORNE.—The lion. Member need not
betray such extreme susceptibility.—(Laughter.) This
money then was given—no, lent—(Laughter)—to the
landlords of the country, for the improvement of land
and the employment of agricultural labourers. Why
the improvement of land necessarily led to the discou-
ragement of labour.—(No, nu.) Would any one deny
that whereas, there were only four or five labourers em-
ployed on each hundred acres ot well cultivated land in
England or Scotland, they in Ireland employed some-
times four or five times that number. He doubted much
that the Right Hon. the Chauceller of the Exchequer
was no farmer. He told the House that
thatth erethwe green
was an
abundance of potatoes in the
ecountry,
and
g were not more plen-
crops were laid down.
If
enveroel the country would be in a
he
tiful than potatoes,
deplorable state ; the finance
said that the green crops were on
the ground. Why, the period for sowing turnips Was in
June. They were rated for the soup kitchens, and as
he had received, perhaps, one of the first copies of that
he should favours op
House with it. The soup.
rate,