The Sun.
London, England, 1841-09-22 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAYBER 22, 1841.

.House might, therefore, infer that would be prorogued
until next February.—(Cries of " Order.")

PRIVATE BILLS COMMITTEES,

Mr. EWART
__then rose to move the following
resolutions, of which he had given notice :-
1. That it is expedient that Committees on Private
Bills should be approximated, more nearly than they now
are, to judicial tribunals, and exempted, as much as pos-
sible, from all motives of local and personal interest.
And that the responsibility and efficiency of such Com
mittees would be promoted by diminishing the number
of Members composing them.
"2. That, with a view of attaining these objects, the
number of Members composing Committees on opposed
Private Bills be reduced to seven.

"3. That such seven Members be appointed by the Com-
mittee of Selection, after the second reading of such Bills.
But that previous to such appointment, the ,Committee
of Selection do ascertain from each of such seven
Members that he is willing to serve, and that he is,
neither through his constituents nor himself, personally
interested for or against the Bill in question ; and that,
in case he is unable to serve, or is interested as aforesaid,
the Committee of Selection do appoint some other Mem-
ber to serve in place of him.
" 4. That the Committee of Selection appoint no
Member to serve on more than one such Private Bill
Committee at a time."

He believed that great ignorance prevailed with re-
gard to the transacting of busines by Committees
on Private Bills. He believed the Right Honourable
Baronet opposite had had many opportunities of see-
ing the baneful working of the present system of
Private Committees ; and he appealed to him whe-
ther reform was not to be desired in their ma-
chinery and construction. In the first place, these Com-
mittees were appointed ptincipally from the local con-
nection with the subject, and therefore it was impossible
that they could be altogether impartial, being in-
terested either through themselves or their constituents.
The system of canvassing that went on during the sitting
of a Committee, was at variance with the justice
of the case under the consideration of the Com-
mittee, and it was discreditable to the character
of the House. The Committees of the House
of Commons were not only partial tribunals,
but, from their size, inconvenient for accomplishing the
ends of justice. They ought to be purified, and dimi-
nished in point of numbers. The remedies which
he ventured to suggest, were, in the first place, to
propose that Committees should be more nearly
assimilated to judicial tribunals. How was that to be
effected ? By removing as far as possible all motives
of partiality. His next desire was to increase the re-
sponsibility and efficiency of Committees. A body of
thirty-five Members had a much more divided responsi-
bility than a body consisting only of seven Members.
He proposed, therefore, to increase their responsibility
by reducing the number from thirty-eight to seven. The
House of Lords had reduced their Committees from an al-
most unlimited number to five, and prohibited any Member,
directly or indirectly interested, from sitting. In the year
1838, the Duke of Richmond was examined before the
House, and his evidence would be found to confirm all that
he (Mr. E.) had said. In the same year the present Speaker
and the Hon. Member for Lancashire drew up a set of
resolutions on the subject, which, having examined, he
found to be essentially the same with those he
now proposed. Not only were the suggestions he
had made founded on reason, but they came be-
fore them sanctioned by the House of Lords, the
Speaker Of the House of Commons, and the
Chairman of the Committee of Ways and Means.
How had those rules operated in the House
of Lords ? Why, it was admitted that they had done
great good ; and, with respect to that House, he believed
they had rendered its Committees more effective,
and their proceedings much more beneficial. The
Honourable Member concluded by moving the
resolutions of which lie had given notice.
The resolutions having beeri read by the Speaker,
Mr. EWART suggested that each resolution should be
taken into consideration separately.
Mr. ESTCOURT thought that the principle laid
down by the Hon. Member was good, and he was
not disposed to contravert it, but he thought lie
had taken a wrong mode of carrying it out. He
would not deny—but that he entertained considerable re-
spect for the opinion which lie knew prevailed, not only
amongst many Members of that House, but also very
extensively out of doors—that in the constitution of
Committees on private Bills, the principle of representa-
tion ought to have due weight. Committees on private Bills
might be considered,under two aspects; first, as judicial
tribunals, and, secondly, as inquisitions. They had to
inquire as well as to judge. If their functions had been
purely judicial he would accede at once to the proposition
of the Hon. Gentleman, but where the matters brought be-
fore them might possibly* lead to .extensive inquiry,
it appeared to him that a larger number of Mem-
bers ought to be appointed than if their functions
were purely judicial, more particularly when, in
the result of that inquire, the constituents of the Members
might be interested. So long as the Committees had
been constituted, as formerly, of a very large number of
Members, belonging not only to the county inte-
rested, but to the neighbouring counties ; or so
long as the Speaker's list had been very large,
he would admit that considerable inconvenience arose
from the canvassing of agents, but both those evils had
been remedied during the two last Sessions of Parliament.
He confessed he thought there was very great weight in
the arguments of those Honourable Members who de-
sired to give that tribunal a representative character.
As far, however, as he had been enabled to form an
opinion, the amendments of last Session had given
general satisfaction. If, after a fair experiment, which
could not be afforded in a single Session, the objections
urged by the Hon. Member should be found to
have gained ground, he would then be prepared
to accede to his propositions; but as no discontent ap-
peared as yet to exist, he thought that was not a fit time
for the Honourable Member to press his resolutions.
If the same system was preserved in the present as in
the last Session of Parliament, and if-Hon. Members
would bind themselves to carry the arrangements into
effect, he had no doubt that there would be a most
satisfactory result—that no party would be disappointed,
and no unnecessary expense incurred. Believing the
motion was unnecessary and uncalled for, he should
take the liberty of moving the previous question.
Mr. W. FERRAND would think it his duty to support
the resolutions of the Hon. Gentleman opposite.
Sir G. CLERK, though admitting there was some
weight in the arguments used on the other side, would,
however, suggest to the Hon. Gentleman the propriety
of withdrawing the resolutions he had proposed, as
any alterations in rules which had hitherto worked well,
would in all probability, in the present state of the House,
when there were so many new Members in it, be
attended with considerable inconvenience.

Mr. EWART, in reply, said, that if these propositions
had been founded only on his own opinions he should
at once assent to the recommendation of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Oxford, but as he found they were approved of
by many gentleman of great experience he felt he should
not be doing his duty if he did not divide the House.
He should therefore do so.

Lord J. RUSSELL could not go to the extent of the
Hon. Gentleman, though he considered it would be well
to exclude as much as possible all personal and local
interest. He did not think it quite right that the represen-
tatives of the people should be altogether excluded from
attending to the interests of their constituents' private
business, though he thought it would be well if some scheme
could be devised giving a more judicial character to the
Private Committees. He could not, as at present ad-
vised, go the length to which some persons did,
that the representatives should be altogether excluded,
for that, in fact, would be destroying, to a certain extent,
the representative character of the House. They had
certainly the best means of giving information on
the various subjects which came before them to the Com-
mittee, and all he wished was
.that it st.ould have more
of a judicial character than the present mode. He could
only say, that in voting for the previous question, he did
not totally differ from the Hon. Gentleman, and he hoped
to see still further improvements.
Mr. AGLIONBY begged leave to say a few words on
the subject. He was glad the subject had been
brought forward, for the House would see the
expediency of altering the present system. The
represented had a right to the service of the Re-
presentative to attend the Committee and advocate the
interests of his constituents, but he had no right to trans-
form himself into a Judge.
Sir H. PEEL was .sorry that they should be driven
to a division. He thought a fair trial should be
given to the existing system; yet he had no objec-
tion that the attention of the country should be called
to the present mode of conducting the public
business, whereby they would see the great abuses
existing in the manner of conducting it. Nothing could
tend more to lower the dignity of the House than to see
the decisions that had been come to on private Bills.
There was a strong impression that Parliamentary in-
fluence was the only thing necessary to insure success;
yet he trusted it would be better to give a fair trial to
the system at present in force, and not call on them to
make a hasty alteration. He did not think it would be
adviseable to take the sense of the House on the subject.
The constituency had a right to the services of their
Representatives, and they had, therefore, a duty to
perform in attending to private Committees.
He bad some experience with respect to railroads. In
such cases the representatives of six several counties
and towns would, by the proposition of the Honourable
Member, have a right to attend to advocate the interests
of their constituents. You could not exactly limit the.
time during which they should address the Committee.
Mr. AGLIONBY—An hour.
Sir R. PEEL-4f they appeared in the charbaecterthoatf
pbeer suoon use
eess
a representingr
ilyeou-
advocates, the inevitable consequence would
ltohcearleiluvtoeurleds
tsb,ethsautcmh numberuaohtime
wonf uld
summed, and the Committee would soon be reduced to a
could get a quorum at all.
despairing quorum, even if you
He feared also, that if local Members were disqualified
to giveisqual rise
ifiedfrom
sitting in Committee, the effect would to
those debates in the House which so frequently occurred,
panatd
iewnchei.ch were usually listened to with so much im-
Mr. EWART would have no objection that the whole
I pofrihviastreeßsoulsuituioesnss. should That bweoruelfderbreedatoth faire
mode
emnoif "
Committee b
tee
mon.
t
promise, and he trusted it would be acceded o y the
Right Hon. Baronet.—(Cries of "No, no.")
the present system should have a fair trial, which Sir R. PEEL thought it was highly necessarythhaadt
not yet been had.
Mr. EWART was perfectly aware that the majority
must be against him. Under suck circumstances, he
would, therefore, not waste the time of the House by
forcing a division ; but he would continue to press them
i on the attention of the House so long as he had the ho-
nour of a seat.

The amendment and motion were then, by leave, with-
drawn.

Mr. RENNIE then rose to move " That an humble
' 'cress be presented to her Majesty, that she will be
—aged to direct her Commissioners of Land
graciously p.,.
Revenues to take mett.,
7.'re4 iv rendering safer the re-

creations of bathing in, and 'skating on, the ornamental
waters of Hyde Park, St. James's, and the Regent's Park, by filling up the deep and dangerous places,
so as to leave not exceeding four feet depth of water
in any of the above-mentioned Parks. When he gave
notice of his motion on Thursday last it was re-
ceived with merriment, but as he was anxious only
to put an end to the deplorable sacrifice of life which an-
nually took place in the Royal Parks, he trusted there was
too much humanity in the House to turn the question into
laughter. As it involved no interests bat those of hu-
manity, he'trusted that that indulgence so usually bestow-
ed on a young Member would not be withheld from him.
At a meeting called to consider the propriety of his re-
solutions, it was resolved that upon a careful consideration
of the dangers to whichithe public were exposed, both in the
skaitingseason and the bathing season, it was the opinion
of the Committee that the suggestions should be adopted.
The Hon. Member then referred to a return of the num-
ber of persons drowned and recovered in the Regent's,
Hyde, and St. James's Parks for the year 1835 to
the present year, from which it appeared that 35 persons
lied been droWned, and 355 persons had been recovered.
He would ask",the House if this state of thiugs ought to
continue when a remedial measure could be adopted?
He would just state that the number of suicides com-
mitted in Hyde Park during the period referred to,
amounted to twenty-one. For that he did not propose
any. remedy.—(Loud laughter.) The Royal Humane
Society had incurred an expense annually amounting to
3,3371. for the purpose of endeavouring to prevent these
disastrous occurrences, but all their exertions had proved
inadequate. He thought he had shown this was a mat-
ter of no very trivial nature, and he would ask Hon.
Members if they could consider themselves exonerated,
if they refused to adopt remedial measures for the pur-
pose of saving human life? The Royal Humane Society
had stated that they believed the measure he
was about to propose was both remedial and
practicable. No fatal accident had occurred in the
Regent's 1 Park, and this was in consequence of
the shallowness of the water. In Hyde Park
and St. James's Park, the ornamental waters
were in some few places thirteen feet deep, and
he proposed to reduce that depth to four feet, so as
to make them safe. The materials sufficient to do this
would not be more than those required to make a third-
rate railroad embankment, and he was convinced that if
a depot for materials were opened at each end of the
lakes, materials sufficient would soon be accumulated,
without any expense except that attending the conveying
them in boats to those parts of the lake, and of the Ser-
pentine, where they were to be thrown overboard. The
work was practicable, and the expense would be inconsi-
derable. Although it might interfere in some respect
with the adventurous swimmers, it would very much im-
prove the winter amusements, as it was well known that
water would freeze much sooner when it was shallow
than when it was very deep. He trusted the Right Hon.
Baronet would give the subject his earnest considera-
tion. The Hon. Member concluded by moving the reso-
tion of which he had given notice.
Mr. EWART seconded the motion.

Mr. GOULBURN trusted that the Hon. Gent Wan
opposite would not think he (Mr. G.) was inimical to his
humane intentions, if he opposed the motion which he
had made. He for one did not regret that the motion
was made, because it furnished an opportunity of hear-
ing testimony to the exertions of the Humane Society,
which it was extremely satisfactory to witness. But he
thought he could state some considerations which would
induce the Hon. Gentleman to admit that, whatever ad-
vantages might be derivable from his plan being carried
into execution, it would, on the other hand, be attended
with circumstances which would not make it so desirable.
Opposition was made to any demands that were consi-
dered unnecessary, and on that ground alone he thought
he might oppose it. But he was old enough to
remember that formerly great efforts were made
to have those very sheets of water deepened,
which the Honourable Gentleman now desired to
render shallow. From ten twenty thousand pounds were
granted, for the purpose of rendering the water deeper
in those places. Now, the Hon. Member wished not only to
undo all that was on that occasion performed, but to put
an additional accumulation of earth in those basins, so
that the water would be only four feet deep. He con-
fessed he was not able at once to calculate the expense
of that measure ; but even taking the expense to be what
the Hon. Gentleman stated it likely to amount to—
namely, that of making an embankment on a railway—
though he confessed he thooght it would amount to
much more ; but even taking that estimate, would the
profit to be derived from the alteration compensate for
the expenditure ? He remembered when the Serpen-
tine was so shallow that it became extremely offen-
sive, from time to time, in consequence of the mud
and offal from buildings in the neighbourhood, that
accumulated in it ; and one of the grounds
urged for deepening the water was the abatinr, of that
annoyance, to which not only those who bathed in the
water, but also the persons who went for recreation in
the Park, were exposed, and who were thus deprived, in
a great measure, of the pleasure which the Parks were
calculated to afford. He was aware that no man went
into the water without risking his life ; but, at the same
time, this was a manly and invigorating exercise ; and
he should be sorry to debar those classes of society from
it, by whom it was desirable such advantages should be
enjoyed.—(Hear, hear.) He would also ask whether
the proposition Of the Hon. Member would be practi-
cable, with any enjoyment, to the parties using the
water for their recreation.—(Hear, hear.) • He was also
quite certain that it would not provide a remedy for the
evil they desired to remove. Its effect would be to
drive the population to other pieces of water, and they
would have them bathing in the Thames or other places,
where there was tenfold danger to life, and where, he
believed, the, loss of life would be far greater. He hoped,
therefore, the Hon. Gentleman would withdraw his mo-
tion.—(Hear.)
Mr. RENNIE replied. The accumulation of mud
which formerly took place in the Serpentine, was occa-
sioned by a sewer that had been recently removed, and
shallow water would not become putrid, provided there
was a constant fresh supply. However, seeing that the
majority of the House would be against him, he should
not press his motion, but he hoped that Government
would take the matter into consideration at a future
time.—(Hear, hear.)
POOR-LAW COMMISSION.
Sir R. PEEL said that he had given notice of a Bill
to continue certain Acts .that would expire within a
limited time. Upon consideration, he thought he should
best consult the opinions of the House by bringing in
two Bills—(Hear, hear)—one to continue the Poor-law
Commission, and the other to continue the remaining
Acts. He also thought it right to mention, that those
who might wish to make any motion on the subject
should do so by moving an instruction to the Committee
on the Bill to receive the proposition they wished to
make. He therefore moved for leave to bring in a Bill
to continue the Poor-law Commission until the 31st of
July, 1842 ;. also for leave to bring in a Bill to continue
such laws as would expire within a limited period.
Leave granted.
THE HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
that the following Members be appointed the Select Com-
mittee on Ventilation of the New Houses of Parliament:—
Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Lord John Russell,
Lord Stanley, Sir John Hobhouse, Sir James Graham,
.Lord Viscount Falmerston, Lord Francis Egerton, Sir
Richard Vyvyan, Mr. O'Connell, Sir Robert Harry
Inglis, Mr. Wynn, Mr. Francis Thornhill Baring, Sir
George Clerk, Mr. Hawes, Sir Charles Burrell, Mr. Tuf
nell, Lord Viscount Sandon, Sir John Guest, and Mr.
Vernon Smith,

MAYNOOTII COLLEGE.
On the motion for bringing up the Report of the Com-
mittee of Supply,

Colonel ACTON said he wished to say a few words
to the House on a matter personal to himself. He was
most anxious to explain that it was his intention to
have voted against the grant to the College of Maynooth,
and he communicated to several of his friends about
him in the House his fixed determination so to do, but
having inadvertently gone into the old lobby he did not
discover his mistake until the door was shut.—
(Laughter.) As soon as he was aware of his mistake he
remonstrated in the strongest manner against being
obliged to record his vote against his principles, and
contrary to his recently expressed opinions, but he was
informed that having gone into the lobby his vote had,
in fact, been given, and could not be recalled.—(Hear,
hear, and laughter.) It was most painful to him to vote
against her Majesty's present Government, from which he
had reason to expect such inestimable benefits to the
nation, but he never could conscientiously vote for the
grant to Maynooth College. He never intended to do
so, and never would.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted the
House would pardon his intrusion. He felt it due to his
own character, and that of the constituency he had the
honor to represent, thus to explain the apparent incon-
sistency of his eonduct.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. PLUMPTRE said the Gallant Colonel shortly
before the division intimated to him his intention to
vote against the grant, which he would doubtless have
done, but that in following the Hon. Member for Ox-
ford (Sir R. H. Inglis) he unfortunately went into the
wrong lobby.—(Laughter.)
Thy Report was then brought up.
On the vote for the National Gallery being put,
Sir CHARLES BURRELL said he had been informed
by good judges that the Perugino, which had been lately
purchased for the National Gallery, was a picture of an
inferior description, and by no means calculated to re-
flect credit on those who had been concerned in its pur-
chase. It had originally been bought by Mr. Beclzford
for 501., and had been purchased for the National Gallery
at the enormous price of 8001. It had been what was
called scribbled all over, that was, repainted—and a
bandeau, which had formerly been round the head of one
of the principal figures, had been removed. He trusted
the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Govern-
ment, in whose skill and taste he had the greatest con-
fidence, would endeavour that some right understanding
should be come to regarding that picture.
The Report was then agreed to.
WAYS AND MEANS.
Sir GEORGE CLERK moved that the House do to-
morrow resolve isself into a Committee of the whole
House to consider the Ways and Means.
Agreed to.
FOREIGN BISHOPS BILL.
The amended Report on the Foreign Bishops Bill was
then brought up and agreed to.
NAVY PAY BILL.
On the Order of the Day being moved for the third
reeling of the Navy Bill.
Captain BERKELEY said that he regretted seeing no
Member of the Government connected with the Admi-
ralty present, as he wished to direct the attention of the
Members of that Board to a grievance to which seamen
on foreign stations were subjected. He would relate
what had happened on board his own ship as an illustra-
tion. The men had received their pay at Gibraltar, and
in consequence of the rate of exchange, had
been subjected to a loss of fourpence on every
dollar they received. He had drawn the attention of the
former Secretary of the Admiralty to the subject, and he
trusted the present Secretary would adopt measures to

preient seamen from being subjected to such 'disitivaa-

taps,

The Bill was read a third time, and passed.
LUNATICS ASYLUM BILL.
On the motion of Lord ASHLEY, the House resolved
itself into a Committee.

I Mr. WAKLEY said he hoped the Noble Lord would
I consent that the renewal of the present law, which was
the object of the present Bill, should be for one year
only, instead of for three. The subject of the treatment
`of lunatics had been much discussed of late, and there
could be no doubt that some alteration must take place
in the law without delay. Last Session not;ces had been
given on the subject, both by the Hon. Member for
Lambeth, and the Right lion. Member for Dumfries.
Thoe Hon. Members had not then proceeded further,
but there could be no doubt but that early in
the ensuing Session the House would have to.
inquire into the subject. He admitted that the ex-
isting commission had been of essential service, but still
he thought the public had a right to expect more infor-
mation from them than they had yet received. There
could be.no doubt but that the restraint in the treatment
of the insane had been much diminished, but at the
same time lie knew that a most outrageous system of
restraint existed in many lunatic asylums. The provi-
sions of the Act, which it was now sought to continue,
extended only within a few miles of the metropolis, and
it was of no effect in the country at large, and cense-
quently the visitations in the country districts were in-
effectual for the purposes of humanity. There was ano-
ther provision so obnoxious to common sense that it
ought not to be tolerated, for while a person desirous of
receiving two lunatics was Obliged to apply for a licence
to the Commissioners, if a person received only one
lunatic the Noble Lord and his colleagues had no power
of visitation over them ' - so that if fifty persons were
separately confined in fifty different places, and confined
unjustly, the Commissioners had no power of visiting
them. He had last Session presented a petition from a
a gentleman who had a relative, a lady of large income,
who was confined as a lunatic. He had tried to gain an
interview with her, and could not succeed ; he had
tried to communicate in writing with her, he could not
succeed ; he had tried to find out where she
was confined, but he could not find out the place of her
concealment. Ought a system so fraught with injustice
and inhumanity to be sanctioned? He had no doubt
but that there were hundreds confined in lunatic
asylums in the country who were as sane as many per-
sons in that House, and a great deal 'more so in some
instances.—(A laugh.) Even if the Commissioners
found a person unjustly confined they could not release
him until after repeated visits, and in many instances li
six weeks must elapse before his release could take plaoe.
This monstrous state of things called for inquiry, and
the provisions .of the Act should be extended to all Eng-
land. In one asylum with which he was acquainted
chains had been laid aside, and the patients were ma-
naged almost without restraint, and by the appointment
of additional keepers and kind treatment had been
rendered almost harmless—he alluded to the Asylum
for the county of .Middlesex' and the Magistrates who
had the superintendence of that Asylum had con-
ducted themselves in a manner that entitled
them to the gratitude of mankind. He did
not mean to say that in the majority of asylums
patients were treated in an unjust or cruel manner, but
the principle was a bad one. He would put a case.
Suppose he had a relative, of large fortune, in whose
conduct he had observed certain eccentricities. Having
a great affection for his relative, but a greater affection
for his fortune, he would sue out a commission of lu-
nacy, and his relative having been declared insane wolild
be placed in confinement. Now, did they attempt to
operate upon the selfish interests of the asylum-keeper to
cure his patient ? No. The keeper said as long as this
man continued insane I shall receive 4001. a year, which
I shall loose if he recover. Under such circumstances
it was not likely that the man would ever become sane.
If an Hon. Member had a liver complaint, would he
imagine that the best way of getting rid of it would be
to say to his doctor, I will allow you 1001. a-year as long
as this liver complaint lasts.—(A laugh.) The House
ought to devise some means of remedying this mono-
tonous and preposterous state of things. No doubt the
Hon. Member for Lambeth, or the Hon. Member for
Dumfries would bring forward the subject next Session,
and he, therefore, hoped the Noble Lord would consent
to the amendment he was about to 'propose, which was,
that in line 24 the words " one year" be substituted for
" three years."
Mr. HAWES seconded the amendment. He knew
the Noble Lord had devoted great attention to the
subject, and he must . be aware that great abuses
existed in the management of lunatic asylums.
In fact, there was no proper check upon them.
The Noble Lord would recollect the case of the Hereford
Asylum, and the scene there brought to light was dis-
graceful. Under the present law a single apothecary,
under special circumstances, had the power to send any
man to a lunatic asylum for ever, and in cases of paupers
a single Justice of the Peace, by his single certificate,
possesed the same power.
Lord ASHLEY—Not for ever.
Mr. HAWES—The Noble Lord said not for ever, but
such, 'however, was the practical effect, for what man of
nervous temperament could undergo the scrutinizing ex•
amination of .a medical man prejudiced against the idea
of his sanity, to which he would have to submit before he
could obtain his liberty. All that the Hon. Member for
Finsbury asked was, that the Noble Lord would not
seek to renew the Bill for so long a period. The Noble
Lord had rendered many and essential services to the
country, and he hoped he would give his assent to the
shorter period:
Lord ASHLEY, who spoke in so low a tone that he
was scarcely audible in tee gallery; was understood to
defend the Commissioners, but they had not sufficient
power to do all they wished. The authority under which
they acted was so limited that heinust Confess they did
not do all that might be expected from them. The Act
was intended rather as a prevention against abuses, than
as one of a remedial nature. And that was stated at the
time the Act was introduced. They had made periodi-
cal reports, but they were not laid on the table of the
House, but if it were deemed necessary the Reports
could be laid on the table, when the Hope would see
what had been done.—(Hear, hear.) If there had been
any omission, it was the omission of the Act, and not of
the Commission. A great deal of what had been done
was not by the authority of their powers, but by sug-
gestion and advice. They had, in a great many in-
stances refused licenses, but they had found it necessary
to resort to extreme measures in only two cases. In
many instances, however, they had found it difficult to
restrain the parties offending within due bounds, and if
it were known that their power was to cease in twelve
months, the proprietors of asylums may take advantage
of that knowledge, and the House may be certain the
Commission would have great difficulty in maintaining
proper control; at the same time he was not indifferent
to the imperfections of the Act—(Hear, hear)—to
remedy which he devoted his entire attention.—(Hear.)
He was glad the Hon. Member for Lambeth La 1 called
the attention of the Secretary of State to the subject ;
and it would be remembered he did the same himself
when the Member tier London filled the same office ;
and he had no doubt his Right Hon. Friend would be
ready to listen to the suggestions that were made.
Within seven mites of London the asylums were brought
to a very complete state ; but he was sorry he could not
say the same of the provincial asylums, which, he be-
lieved, were not subject to any official examination, and
that there were several of which they had no knowledge
at all. He conceived it would be necessary to have the
returns from all the provincial asylums. There were
other defects which he did not know how to remedy, as
that of the admission of persons into lunatic asylums.
There was a disposition, on the part of the fi leach of a
relative, not only to get rid of the unfortunate relative,
but to wipe from their minds all memory of him ; and
that was an additional reason why there should be, in
the provinces, a searching visitation—(Hear, hear)—
and to compel the relatives to do their duty. The only
question was, whether the Bill should be renewel for
three years, or for one ; but he considered that three
years were absolutely necessary ; and, for himself, he
would say, that all the time he could spare, and all the
energy he could devote, would be freely and warmly
given to the subject ; and he hoped, with the assistance
of others, he should be able to inform the House, as
soon as possible, of the adoption of some general rule,
whereby the entire management of those asylums would
be subject to a full, complete, and effective system of
visitation.—(Hear.)
Sir B. INGLIS begged to take the present opportu-
nity of making his acknowledgment with his whole heart,
and he believed his feelings were participated by nine-
tenths of the House, and were responded to by the entire
country, as far as the character of the Noble Lord was
known to it—not only for the present evidence of his
worth, but for all matters in which, apart from politics,
he had ever been engaged.—(Cheers.) There was no
title. which he ever earned—there was no title which he
could earn—equal to what he earned in that House as the
friend of every sufferer.
Mr. WAKLEY was ready to agree in the opinion of
the merits of the Noble Lord, but in his (Mr. Wakley's)
mind the speech of the Noble Lord proved that the com-
mission ought not to be extended to three years. The
Noble Lord said the act was difficult—he alluded to
want of power—he said that discrepancies existed in the
law, and yet the Noble Lord said " Renew the Act."
He said he would give all his energies to the subject—
hut if the Act was as he stated, would it not paralyse
those energies? When the Noble Lord the Member for
London proposed to renew the Poor-law Bill for ten
years, the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tam-
worth refused to accede, because he thought the power
belonging to the Commissioners ought to be subject to
frequent supervision. The same argument applied to the
present Commission. It was a well-paid Commission—
he did not object to payment—but what were they paid
for ? The professional men of that Committee_
psoamide ofone thegmuinleaawyaenrs,
hour
;
some physicians—were
andhe believed
et was optional with themselves how many hours they
would spend. He believed that one person, properly
selected, and responsible for his acts, as the Home Secre-
tary was responsible for his, would do more service than
the entire Commission. , The subject ought to be taken
in hand by Government, and placed undEr the searching
and effectual supervision of the Home Secretary. This
was a question unconnected with politics, and he hoped
the Noble Lord, seeing he could have no motive, per-
sonal or otherwise, in urging it, would consent to adopt
the shorter period, for the sooner it came before Parlia-
ment the better.
Lord ASHLEY said that the Commissioners were not
laid ; at least, that he was not.
Mr. WAKLEY had only alluded to the professional
Members of the Commission—and he said so distinctly.
He could assure the Noble Lord he never meant to say
he was paid ; but the professional Members had a
guinea or a pound for every hour's attendance, and the
Act, he believed, imposed no limit upon that attendance.
Sir J. GRAHAM said, that, as he had been so often
alluded to, he would say a few words, though he had i
not yet directed much of his attention to the-subject. It ,
was a subject of deep and grate importance, and it was
impossible to listen to the discussion without feeling that

it touched the heart and he cordially -4,;ieed vlil the
Han. Member for Oxford, that, amid the many claims
of his Noble Friend upon the gratitude of the British
public, none gave him so good a title to it as that which
he acquired as the friend of the unprotected, and none
gave him so strong a claim as the position he had taken
on the present subject.—(Loud cheers.) The question
before the Committee was simply, whether the Com-
missioners should be continued for three years, or for one.
He agreed with the Hon. Member for Finsbury, that it
was very desirable that the conduct of public servants
should undergo investigation. He also agreed with him
as to the necessity of inquiry into the confinement of lu
natics in general; and if it should be found upon careful
consideration that further steps were necessary, he would
in a future Session propose an alteration. But 'after the
declaration of his Noble Friend, if the question of one
or three years went to a division, he would vote for the
longer period.

Mr. WTAKLEY said he had moved this amendment
b2cause he believed that he was serving the cause of hu-
manity. It he thought there was any probability of his
succeeding he would go to a division ; if, however, he
was likely to be in a small minority, he would refrain
from doing so, believing that it would only injure the
cause he was advocating.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. ESTCOUR'I' said his opinions on the subject
coincided with those of the Hon. Member for Finsbury,
and had a division taken taken place, he would certainly
have voted with him ; but after what had fallen from his
Noble Friend, and from the Secretary of State for the
Home Department, he would recommend the Hon. Mem-
ber not to press the House to a division.
Mr: WAKLEY then withdrew his amendment.
The House then resumed, the Chairman reported pro-
gress, and the Report was ordered to be brought up to-
morrow.

On the motion that the Poor-law Continuance Bill be
read a first time,

Mr. YORKE said he would here give notice, that he
should move that the Commissioners be not empowered
to enforce indiscriminate separation between man and
wife, and that in no case should they sanction it, where
the application for relief arose neither from poverty
nor vice.

Sir J. GRAHAM said, that •as he should to-morrow
propose the second reading of the Bill, that, perhaps,
would be the best time for giving notices of amendment.
Mr. YORKE said he would give notice of his motion
to-morrow.
The Bill was then read a first time.

Sir J. GRAHAM gave notice that to-morrow he would
ask leave to bring in a Bill for the payment of the per-
6011s employed in taking the census of the population.
The House then adjourned at a Quarter-past Eight.

MANCHESTER AND LEEDS RAIL-

WAY HALF-YEARLY MEETING.

The tenth half-yearly meeting of the Proprietors in
this undertaking was held on Thursday last, at the Com-
pany's Offices, Clowe's-buildings, Hunt's Bank, and was
rather numerously attended, there being nearly seventy
Proprietors present, several from a considerable distance.
H. HouLnswouTit, Esq., Chairman of the Board of
Directors, having taken the chair, called on the Secre-
tary, Mr. Jellicorse, who read an advertisement in the
Manchester Guardian convening the meeting, and stated
that a similar notice had appeared in the Leeds Mercury.
The Chairman, having first taken the vote of the meet-
ing to authorise him, next proceeded to affix the Com-
pany's seal to the register of Proprietors, and then re-
quested Mr. Entwisle, one of the Directors, to read their
Report.

Mr. W. ENTWISLE then read the Report. It is too
long for insertion entire, and printed copies are in the
hands of the Shareholders ; but the following are the
principal passages of general interest
The total receipts for the first six months ending on the Ist
instant, have been 103,070/. 175., showing a weekly average,
during the first three months, of 3,2511. Os. Id., and, during
the second three months, of 4,619/. 18s. 2d. And though
some part of this improvement is, undoubtedly, due to the in-
crease of traffic that always takes place at this season of the
year, yet the Directors feel justified in stating their opinion
that the traffic is gradually developing itself, and, under more
favourable circumstances, when trade shall have recovered from
its present depressed state, will fully answer the expectations
that they have always entertained. The average weakly re-
ceipts, during the six weeks ending on the 6th instant, have
amounted 'to 5,1981. Os. 3d. The total disbursements on
capital account, up to the Ist of July, amounted to 2,728,270/.
Is. lod., which sum includes the payments on account of
the extension line to Hunt's Bank, and of land and materials
available for re-sale, amounting together to about 80,000/.
In the financial exposition given to the Proprietors at the
special meeting held on the 3d of June last, it was stated that
the questions of a dividend, and of the issue of the new shares
to be created under the powers of the recent Act of 4 Victoria,
would form subjects of consideration for the ir ssent meeting,
and that in the present state of the finances of the Company, they
were inseparably connected. By postponing a division of the
profits, the issue of the new shares might for a time be de-
layed; but the Directors, after much consideration, and with an
anxious desire to meet the wishes of the shareho!ders, have de-
termined to recommend that a dividend, in proportion to the
amounts paid upon the shares, viz., of 2/. on each share of
1001., and of 17s. 2d. on each share of 50/.. amounting to-
gether to the sum of 37,158/. 6s. Bd., be de. lar.td out of the
surplus receipts derived from the partial corking of the line,
simultaneously with the issue of the new shares of 25/. upon
which a deposit will berequired of 21. per share ; and they fur-
ther recommend, that the new shares be offered to the Proprie-
tors in the proportion of one share of 25/. for every 1001. if
the stock of this Company held by au), Pooprietor.
Although the capital stock of the Company has recently
improved in value, as the Directors had anticipated, yet the
rise is not yet sufficient to ensure that the new shares will be
taken up at par, and the Directors had, therefore, to consider in
what manner an adequate inducement should be held out to
the Proprietors or the public to subscribe for these shares.
The issue of them at a discount would deprive the Company
of a portion of their Parliamentary capital; and, in order to
avoid th s, it has been determined to recommend that an extra
value be given to the new shares by engaging to pay dividends
upon such deposit and upon all' sums called up and paid upon
them, at the rate of ten per cent. per annum for five years ;
and that such shares be entitled to dividends after the expira-
tion of the said term, in proportion to the amount paid upon
them in exactly the same manner as the other shares. Under
these conditions, they believe that the shares will readily be
taken up; and, as it will probably be thought desirable to raise
as much of the future capital as possible by loans on bond, in
anticipation of calls, the expenses to the Company of placing
the shares will be but small and temporary.
Since the special meeting in June last, the contract for the
Oldham Branch Line has been entered into, and the contractor
is bound to have it completed and ready for opening early in
January next. The total cost will be within 50,000/. The
Halifax Branch Line will form the next subject of the attention
of the Directors.

The continued indisposition of the Directors of the Liverpool
and Manchester Railway Company to proceed with the con-
nection line, together with the unfavourable state of the times,
and the serious inconvenience which would be caused to the
Proprietors, by calling upon them for any large amount of capi-
tal, under the great depression which has taken place during
the last half-year in the market value of the stock of this Com-
pany, have combined to deter the Directors from submitting to
the Shareholders on the present occasion any proposition for
the immediate commencement of the works upon the Exten-
sion Line to Hunt's Bank. But, as the powers of the Com-
pany to purchase land expire in July next (unless their
renewal sliould be obtained in the next Session of Parlia-
ment, for which notices must be given in November next),
some pa s:tive decision has become unavoidable. As the
question at present stands, the Directors of this Company Lave
reason to believe that the project of a junction line round the
southern side of the town, is virtually abandoned; and that
the oily point at issue is the sufficiency of the thorough traffic
to afford adequate remuneration for the outlay. The opening
of the Manchester and Leeds line has been looked to by the
Directors of the Liverpool and Manchester Company as being
likely to afford a basis on which to found their calculations for
the solution of this question; but it has long been the opinion
of your Directors, that no result obtained from the traffic
between the lines, while disconnected, can ever afford that de-
gree of certainty of success which the very cautious policy of
the Liverpool and Manchester Company seems to iequ;re ;
for the question is not so much as to the amount of existing
traffic through Manchester, as the amount which would be
diverted into this channel by a continuous railway communica-
tion. This can only be determined by actual expe-
rience ; but, from the immense extent of the intercourse
known to subsist between Liverpool and the populous
districts on the line of the Manchester and Leeds Railway,
the result may, in the opinion of this Board, be as certainly
inferred and relied upon as any data on which such works are
u.ually undertaken. In puisuance, therefore, of their posers
under their Act of Parliament, the Directors have determined
to proceed with the purchase of the remainder of the land re-
quired for this purpose, by which means they will secure for
this Company the power of forming a direct communication
with the Old Ricer Company, in case the Directors of the
Liverpool and Manchester Company shall allow their own
powers to expire unexercised. The advantages of this con-
nection with the water conveyance to Liverpool would be, in
the opinion of your Directors, inferior only to those of a direct
railway communication ; in proof of which they would refer
the Proprietors to the recent introduction of an improved class
of boats upon the old river, an experiment that appears hitherto
to have been attended with complete success.
The CHAIRMAN then said that it had been usual to
follow the reading of the Report by a few observations,
to supply details on subjects noticed in the Report, or
to give information on other subjects, known to interest
the Proprietors at the time ; although they were now ap-
proaching a period when, he trusted, facts would speak for
themselves, and would require no comment. But, in refer-
ence to the present half-year, he thought a few observations
might be desirable. In the first place, he would advert to the
opening of the line, on the Ist of March last, as an event
which would not only set at rest all doubt and anxiety as to
the completion of the line, but at the same time remove all
remaining obstacles to that remunerating traffic towards
which they had so long looked. They might now very
properly congratulate themselves on the completion of
so stupendous a work. Whether they looked at the
nature of the country through which the line passed,
the engineering difficulties which opposed themselves, or the
pecuniary difficulties of the times in which the work was car-
ried on • to the energy and skill thus employed in the expendi-
ture of ;he capital, or to the immense advantages which the
railway was likely to confer upon the district through which it
runs, and the addition which it could net fail to make to the
productive energies of the country—all these were reasons
for congratulating themselves; and, if there were no other
similar wcirk in the country, this line would, he thnught,
bear ample testimony to the industry, zeal, and enterprise
of the age. When he last addressed the proprietors in
June, the Directors expressed some disappointment that.
the increese in the traffic had not answered their expec-
tations ;. but, at that time, they had overlooked a fact which
subsequent experience had shown to have considerable effect
on their traffic. At that time they had not contemplated
their present arrangements with the carriers; so that in May
last their increased traffic was exceedingly small. Since then,
however, the traffic had continued to increase steadily and pro.
gressively, so as sufficiently to indicate that the Manchester
and Leeds line was to form no exception to the rule, as to all
the principal railways, that there was, and would continue to
be for a long time after the opening, a steady and progressive
increase of traffic. During the six months just elapsed, to the
Ist September inst., their receipts had been 103,000/., and
in that time the average weekly receipts of the first
three months was 3,2761. ; of the second three
months, 4,6161. These sums differed a little from the
accounts as published ; but, as would be perceived,
during the last six weeks or two months, they had
occasionally to add the receipts, ere they accrued, in
balancing the accounts; and, if the corrections were made, the
result would be, that in the first three months the weekly re.
ceipts would be 3,2761., and in the second three months
4,6161. Their average weekly receipts, during last month
(August), had been 4,895/., when these corrections were
made. Though this was not sufficient amount to make an
adequate return upon the amount of capital expended, it

formed a basis on which he thought they might very properly
found some conclusions in endeavouring to estimate the future
traffic on the line And although it was scarcely the business of
the Directory or the Chairman to enter much into such state-
ments, still he thought it their duty to put the Proprietors
in•o possession, as far as they could, of all those circumstances
which tend to show the ultimate prospects of the concern.
The receipts—taking for a basis the present receipts, and mak-
ing those deductions to which he had referred, and which were
derived from the experience of other lines—would be very
nearly 6,0001. a week. This showed, he thought, that they
could not but expect an advantageous result for the under-
taking.
The next important subject was the expense of working the
line. They had not yet the data sufficient to enable them to
ascertain at what rate per
.annum they could work the line;
but, taking every pains to ascertain the probable amount, in-
cluding maintenance of way, the depreciation of stock, and, in
fact, every charge they could conceive could come in, and they
found that with a receipt of from 5,0001. to 6,0001. a week, their
expenditure would not exceed 100,000/. a year. If they succeeded
in keeping it to that amount, they would work their line at
R more moderate cost than any other of the large lines.
Another observation with respect to the profits. Different
principles were in operation in different, Companies as to the
mode of conducting their traffic ; and as those principles were
essentially afferent, and as the Directors conceived that the
principle on which they intended to work this line was the
rtAht one, he might explain wherein the difference lay. It
had been tt.sumed on some lines, that the expense of convey-
ing passengers or goods was a certain amount, say Id or lid.
per passenger, and, consequently, any traffic which would not
yield something more than lid. per passenger, was not
worth while for these Companies to secure; but the Di-
rectors of this Company did not look at their traffic in
this light. They had a fixed expenditure, say 100,0001.
a yoar, whether their traffic was large or small ;
and they set aside the receipts of the first traffic
to pay that 100,000/., and all surplus beyond that amount they
looked upon as profit. Consequently, guided by that princi-
ple, their endeavour was, first to secure such traffic as the dis-
trict yielded through which the line passed, at the highest
charges consistent with the interests of the Company. Par-
liament had sufficiently protected the public, and the Company
endeavoured to get the most out of the district. But, when
they looked further than their own district, they saw that, un-
less they reduced the rates very materially, there would be,
beyond what they were able to derive from their own district,
a considerable portion of traffic which would take other routes.
With respect to the new shares, they trusted that the con-
ditions on which they were offered would be satisfactory to the
Proprietors, and that they would be taken up; and, as they
had been obliged to connect the issue of new shares with the
payment of the dividend, he was anxious to prevent the possi-
bility of any one conceiving that the dividend was a payment
out of the call. The fact was, that their revenue account had
already borrowed the money, in order to make good the excess
of expenditure beyond the capital they had raised; they had
had to borrow from the revenue fund all the money that had
accrued from the traffic, and the call would enable them to pay
that back, and then that fund was the legitimate source from
which to pay the dividend.
Mr. KAY assed, whether it was a rule that no porterage
should be allowed to third-class passengers ?
The CHAIRMAN—It is.

Mr. KAY.—Then he—should recommend the Directors to
take that rule into further consideration. A few days ago, at
one station, a female came with a box, which she wanted placing
on the luggage-train, and none of the porters were willing to
assist her. At length a gentleman standing by, seeing her
situation, took it up, and carried it to the luggage-train. One
of the porters came to him, and wished to know whether he
was a passenger ; and it was not till he had shown his ticket
that the interference of the porter ceased. He thought this a
case deserving the attention of the Directors.
The CH AIRMAN said, the Directors had, on a former occa-
sion, explained to the Proprietors the principle which they
found it absolutely necessary to apply to the working of that
traffic, so long as they maintained that class of fares. It was
a question how far the public convenience was better
provided for by having only two classes of passengers, and
giving the usual attendance and porters to both, or having a
third class at a much lower fare. The Directors conceived
that it was mre e for the interests of the public that the Com-
pany should provide a liw class of carriages for the conveni-
ence of those who could afford to pay a high class fare ; and,
in order to make that meet the interest of the Proprietors,
they were obliged to limit the expense as much as possible.
They could only do so by using carriages to hold a much
larger number of people, and by not incurring any expense in
porterage. There would occasionally be cases of hardship like
that named; but the question would be, whether it was not
better upon the whole for the lower classes that they should be
conveyed at the rate of Id. or lid. a mile, than that no such
conveyance should be afforded them below 2d. a mile. The
Directors believed that it was for the interest of that class of
people that it should be as at present.
Mr. KA v s: ii, he understood that the lower class passengers
formed as large a per centsga upon the capital as any class.
The CHAIRMAN said they did so ; but, if they allowed por-
terage to the third class, many second-class passengers would
become third-class passengers.
Mr. E. LOYD, banker,said he had been exceedingly gratified
with the Report ; and he had great pleasure in moving that the
Report of the Directors now read be received ; that their pro.
ceedings be approved of and confirmed; and that their accounts,
up to the 30th June last, be passed.
The motion for the adoption of the Report was then put from
the Chair, and passed nevi. dis.
A PROPRIETOR asked—Have you made any estimate of the
expense or making the branch to Halifax ?
Mr. Goocsa said the estimate was about 55,000/., the length
being about 1% mile.
The CHAIRMAN said it was their intention to commence
that branch early in the spring.
The PROPRIETOR then asked if the Directors kept the ac-
count of Sunday traffic separate from the rest ; because the
Proprietors, who had strong conscientious objections to parti-
cipating in the profits of Sunday travelling, might wish to
know what these were ?

The CHAIRMAN said they had the accounts so made out,
that the Sunday traffic might be distinguished ; and they could,
if the meeting wished it, state, at the bottom of the dividend
warrants, as the Liverpool and Manchester Company did, the
amount of the Sunday traffic.
After a long dissertation by Mr. James Wood against Sun-
day travelling, which led to no result, the meeting separated.