The Sun.
London, England, 1841-03-16 00:00:00

EN iNG EDITION.

Le communicated to Parliament with the least possible
delay. He (Lord Stanley) had stated his opinion th it
the subject was one which could not properly
be referred to the consideration of a Committee,
but one in which the responsibility of administering
relief under its financial embarra;smeats, and of
bringing forward a plan for an alteration of the
present system of government rested principally
upon her Majesty's Government. Upon that subject
so strongly did the Committee feel, that although it
was true a report had been issued, recommending the
advance of certain sums, yet that was accompanied
by a resolution placing the whole responsibility of
the proceedings in the hands of the Government.
That was carried net only by no large majority,
but by the casting vote of the Chairman,
lie being a Member of her Majesty's Government,
and two other members of the Government voting in
&your of the recommendation. Ile eetertained the
opinion then, and he still adhired to if, that
it was net the duty of the Goi ernment
to throw such a question loosely before the
C ,mmittee, but that coming down to Parliament on
their own responsibility, they should state the
course they proposed to adopts and
.afterwards •
t ike the opinion of a Sleet Cemreettee. As
to details which could not be conveniently discussed in
that House. He remained of the same opinion still,
that it was the duty of her Majesty's Goiernment to
come down to Parliament not only the proposal to
relieve the embarrassments of the Colony, but a'so
with a 'definite proposal as to the alteration wale)
their experience suggests to them ougl.t to be made.
Ile quite coneurie.l with the Noble Lord in his con-
demnation of the so-called self-supporting principle.
He had always been of opinion that that principle
was founded upon erroneous caleulitions. - He felt
bound to say that the original Act was introduced
most hastily, and passed without that deliberation
to which it was eetitied. When he had the honour of
filing the office of Colonial Secretary, he bad en-
tered his protest against the plan of govern-
kg a colony by Commissioners, the responsibility
rested then upon no One. He quitted office in
May, and almost the next day his successor was pressed
leirdly to agree to a Bill which be (Lord Stanley) had
t ever seen, set it was alleged thet he had agreed to it,
and that -Bill was agreed to. 'rho colony was formed,
and al that had taken place was perfectly natural—the
bubble huts', and the self-supporting principle was
biown to shreds. What was to be exneeted from a
colony the expeoditure of which was 140,000/. a yeti-,
while its revenue was not more than 20,0001.—a colony
where the Government House, upon a sanctioned
authority, went built at an experise of 21,0001.—a
colony ishe.-e 22,000/. was spent upon making a road
to a harbour, which wes badly chosen in the first in-
stance— a colony where the land which was originally
sold at 125., seas afterwards sold at 5001., 1,0001,
cress 1,500/. an acre—a colony in which a body of po-
lice complained of inadequate pay while reef ivine
11. 19. t. a week, they complaining of the espouse they
were put to in cleaning their white trowsers and eine
lbws—(Thar, beer)—a colony into which had been
introducel all the convenieneies and luxuries of a set-
tled state while it was still in the state of a wilderness?
Whet was the result ? Why, that there were not 20Q
acres of land under tillage for the suppont of the colony.
•Intt 'ad of the first settlers direct' ng• their attention to
defraying' the expenses of their own maintenance, by
the cultivation of the soil the whole of their subsistence
was derived from England or from theecolonies. There
was scarcely an acre tiPe 1 by them fur their own support ;
and the whole cf the colonists were occaspi rd with specu-
lations and land jobbing. He as,eated to the psi- c'ple of
the propriety of having the land sold applied to purposes
of emigration. But they should not fix on a uniform
price. He thought that the facility of ontainir g land in
the colonies bad the mischievous tendency of leading the
population to disperse i over the country, and occupy
more land than they c ;old manage. In order to obviate
that inconvenience, he thought that they Ehould impose
such a price on land as would prevent large tracts from
tehig monopolised by parties who could not make upon it
a sufficient outlay. Let them not allow any parties to
occupy land, Wthout any reference to the general interests
of the c immunity, or at an insufficient price. Let it not
be g•a t id, for instance, at a pound an acre, white it was
• worth thirty or fo'ty shillings. 'That was throwing away
the revenues cf the colony in a way which the founeera of
the system had never corternplat_d. Every precaution
should be taken to direct the attention of the colonists
from land-jobbing and land speculations, which were the
sources of the difficulties in which many of the
colonies were now placed. ( Hear, hear, hear.)
The Noble Ler ! stated his intention, without reference to
the recommendation which the Committee may have I
mane, and very properly stated his intention to bring for-
ward
his own treasure fur the alteration of the Act in that
respect in which he considered it deficient. The Noble
Lord here proceeded to show that the manner in r hich
the emigration fund was raised gave rise to unlimited
credit, and, in conseqeence, to unlim;ted exreediture.
The result was unlimi.el bankruptcy. He (Lord Stan-
ley) pfrfiely concurred in the general principles and views
which the Noble Lord laid down for the future manage-
meet of the Many, but he thought that before the Noble I
Lord called on that House to vote loge sums cf money,
for that ccleny, without holding out any security yr pre-
spect of repayment, he ought t embody those views in a I
measure which he should submit to tie House, and in
which he wool f give the details and provisions of that Act
which be said he would introduce. He eii not know I
whether it was the Noble L,rd's i iteation, immer:.idtely
aft.r that r:soluti,in was-passed, in the ignorance cf the I
state of tie colonies in which the maknity of vie f
House was, sly:t the Commissioners should go into
the market, and raise the lean propme-I. Much as he
(Lord Stanley) de:i-ed to see at. end of the difficulties
of that colony, i.e did not think that the Noble Lord va;
eni I 'el in the present state of informati in on the ruTct
to cell upon the House t sanction such a proceeding. He
(Lord Star.ley) would be sorry to negative the propositions 1
of the Noble Lord, but he must say that it was not right
for Government to call on that House to sanction a grant
of money:without giving, in the form of a Bill, the measures
which they intend to introduce on the subject. While they I
win called on to advance a lOan, they did not know on
what principles the colony was bar after to be conducted,
'or what security they were likely to hive for that loan, and
how Government proposed to we et any financial difficulties
that might an e. Ha would advise the Noble Lord to
consent that the Chairman do report progress, and post- .
pone the p-esett measure for a week or so, that the House
might fairly consider the exigeacice of the colony, and I
would not call on the House to pledge itself to vote
210 000/. in the present state of information on the subject.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he brought forward
this question and had it referred to a Committee, because
the colony deprecated delay above all thing=, and he con-
sidered it the duty of Government to bring forward some 1
meaoare on the subject with the I at possible delay.
Sir ROBERT I'EEL said that the difficulty might I
be settle-I if tie Noble Ler I would state upon the le c-
lution passing that he would postpone r icing the money.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sa.'d,
so far as the Government were concerned they it :a no
other wish than to meet the desires of the colony', and
the patties connectA with it.
Lord 110 WICK said that those parties who bad ad-
vaaced money on bids drawn on the Treasury by the au-
thorities appointed under the Act of Parleenent, had
every reason to le.ieve that these persons wen° atithorked
to draw those billy, and under those circumstances the
bills must be paid,. but it was important that they should
be paid without delay. It seemed to him that I); taking
the course suggested by his Noble F iend opposite rsi
would be a considcreble delay. What be (Lord flawicke
would suggest was that it was desirable that the Com-
mittee should now assent to the resolution proposed, and
that that reso'ution be reported, and that Government,
having the authority from the House, would then be en
ablcd at once to seise the boar, and they could after-
wards have as much time as was rcetfr.cl to meet
the immediate difficult'es of the colony. Hoar.)
It appeared to him that that would be a course which would
most completely met t both what was doe to the interests
of Foliate parties in the colony, and what was due to the
House and the country, which st as kterested in the ad-
vance cf the public money. In many of the views of the
Noble Lord he fully concurred, aid in others he ceit a sly
differed. It appeared to him, however, that they were
bound to provide for the immediate and pressir-g financial
necessities of the colony, and he should, therefore, support
the motion of the Noble Lord.
Mr. BUTT said the Noble Lord ( Stanley) bad thought
proper to attack the persons who had acted as Comniis-
timers, and were. inte:e ted in the management of the
colohey. Now the had never heard more rash or un-
founded statements than tae Noble Lord had mode to
the Howe. Ile had spoken of tilt it• extravagance in the
management of the finances of the colony, and charged
them with having attache) to it a fictitious prospenty.
He (Mr. Hutt) utterly denied the truth of LI e:e stau
ments, and he regretted the Noble Lord had not bad
more regard for his station and chase er than to baz .rd
such assertions. Having been connected with the Com-
mis,ioners of South Austraar, he triote i the house
would indulge hint for a few momenta, Nellie I.'
stated a few facts connected with that colony
the House. Hitherto it had not cost the Government
home iisFenc —(Hear.) It had no share whateveriLera naval
cediture of the public funds, and it vcisinte contained a
nor a military statioe.--( Hear, hcar.)
the Noble Lord
population of 15,000, inthe
conduct ; and olibough it had tr..ie
eca
had stated, exhibited ernvearnyyi'n'idicwaitTom.u'oractivity
larger amount of
existence 'Aansdag.c7-1
lony only four years, it contaia.
stock than New South ftder it had bet tliety
Le Ir. He reed not
ytarkaersopatheßrtiitmiseh
(icrottoenyliV..l
::eolue(wsseflh
iche'yth
ir fhaedrribu,gent
yrs; aurtily.
puldie works of ittvorta.n
cl•tir''%unagl:tatahceeys oblad '
After four years ofrthe
sla en-
tendnera kuunepnporneb:tehtdeheienr
unprecedented
cm4t mrif
ffi‘ sess
lolutrin,cd.res
edeur
et duty, they
yt.'h
forey tiiireaic.„ll,eletiniesd.isbHaandeeidi
not
he could state to the Committee that
Pct loes Nrforoble neoc Lord
that,oorfd the eu
it
Sr
since then the sacs of hind which had been every 'year
:no. had gone back ; emigration had ceased, and
progre.s,
the capitalists, who had been in th habit of enibarkin:z
their money in the Colony, had no longer Speculated ;
then came these untoward bills, which alone would 11 EV
been sufficient to produce considerable ineary
theenien n
eeri
The Commissioners did not raise the money to
off as they should have done, in his Opinion, till the pay Colony
had lost its credit, and then they tried when it
was
too late.
Under these circumstances the Noble Lord come dow.
telorensHidocuriste,gtotbparosepnoureritay loitanw,
aasnotibtbeeir ,urst we aoultdb es
sanction
the the motion. • .e,
Mr. MeKINN ON having been one of the Commission•
ie rear,
wfeblto his
last
ty
spokenfo say
badfw e w
statedcrd r . T
keen progressing ti 1 the Noble Lord had
h
Conunisiiuners, and ill sayingthat td eh
etHec:norlico.vne;‘: el
theirnad-
it appeared to him that

the Hon. Member bad conveyed a stronger censure vpou
the Noble Lord than anathing that had Leen sail en that
ride of the Neese. Ile thought that all the evila of the
prceeet state of things arose from the appoinement of thee
Cemmissioners. As a proof of that lie would
menzion that in 1839, under the old sya'em, fifty thousand
acre,aeera arc
re
w
acres
lofh:ele soldlandia
ohatbdnely 7
bean soli at the rate cf a pound per
eArn
91 dnedr
otfie
hetCioEMe
L 4,000 had
-e m contracted for by a gerafeman in Ireland.
naounfmdtbi 'ewer,
hsoiyersht
ballseimt
Mr. V. SMITH denied the justice of tt •befrigt_ to
the new Commisrieners the grievancesj ortheac7 The
evils were really owing to the embarrassments,.owohnieY,h welt
eocenlenallleGyq t:o:ltechree,
tine!lsuseuden,:i (a;bn!ysds
Colonel
re,hously pur-
vsP'‘a.haielt:fthearl•baeredts?
necessary to treat. He did not think any further delay
was advisable, and the Noble Lord oppoa;te (Lord Stan-
ley) had himself, on a former occasion, insisted tbat by
postpouing some mereure fer settling the question they
would only aggiavate existing evils. Her Majasta'y Go-
vcrnnierit had been censured for not taking upon them-
selves the responsibility of relieving the colony from its
dlfioulties instead if submittiog them to a Co nmi'tee.
The reason why they Lai not done so was that the colony
was an anomaleus creation of Parliament itself, and they
thought the matter should, there fie e, be referred to Par-
liament: If the re-payment of this emigration fund would.
set t' le colony efie.seht ought to be applied. Persons unite--
quail-end with the peculiar formation el the c liony had em-
batted their property, and they would be rtiacci Parlia-
ment did net interf .re. Notwithstanding the great cm.
barrassmcnts of the colony, ye., compared with other
colocias, he did net consider that it would
be a dear barg tin at that price. The ex-
penditure sf Western Australia in 1834, was
93,4131. That colony had at that time a population not
execedirg 9,000; whilet in South Australia, there was
already a populatioe a 15,000. On the whole, therefore,
Ibe thought the propects were not very discouraghag. The
Right Hon. Gentleman then concluded be reading some
extracts from the corrc(pondence of Colonel Torres's, and
exploratory of the conduct of the Colonial Secretary Nitta
rear.ect to the payment of the Commissioners' salaries.
• Sir R. PEEL raid he wished that course to be taken
which wool i preaile for the esieenciess of the colonies,
end, at the same time, prevent additionalr expense at a
f_ture lima. But was. the proposal made of this kind?
His Noble Friend had given no opi ion adverse to the
loan, but had merely said that it was the duty of the
Hause, when contracting liabilities to provide a loan to nave
diitiect inforna'ion on what footing ti e Government
of the colony was in future to be placed. We-e they store
that 220,0001. was all that would be required ?—(11c-trir
heir ) 'rhe iavelved in the Ical was more ex.
fensiv'. Suppose the estimate shotald be a fallacious one,
creel I they limn tl,eir advance to that sum ; would not the -
Noble Lord bring forward a supplemental es iota e, and,
on the same principle as the first I )an, cal upon them to
cortract a s,.contl ?—t, Hear, bear.) The Hoe. Geatle-
man infurn.el the House th:-.t C hotel Torrent car the
first to denounce the principle en which the colony was
foundesl, arid thought the scheme na; a tc tel N-
iue-. He (Sir Robert Peel) confesse 1 his confi-
dence in Colonel Torrens's opinion was a good deal
when he lir and this end read the Repert of Colonel Ter-
rens del vared is July 1840, in which he said (p. 11, 4tis
Report) the unexera pled proaperity of South Ansiralitabad
excited an etivieus sphit of hostility in persons: interestoe
i.t prettrocie emigratron to other settlements. But mix the
Hoe. G.nt.cman sri-i a new liltt bed broken in upon
Colo' el Tcrrcns, and that he thought the experience of
this colony should be a warnino. to others not to found a
colony on the same prirc7plcs. Now, was it not
a reasonable propositen, if a loan were asked
under there ercumstarxes, a 4; the principles
on which the colony was hereafter to be founded?
Distinct information ought to be conveyed to the
House in the shape of it Bill on the subject. Two
Goveraors had ten: alteldv removed, and was
with the Report of the Treasury, a Parliamentarynot g
found
this
for inquiry? Were thee not conclusive reasons why the
Noble Lord should infor'm them of the intention of Govern-
ment? The tine was core when it was necessary to alter hotly
tie territorial eiviaion and the form of the Cons:itutieta
They were bound to make provision for the wants cf these
15,000 penile, whe, in embarking their caeitri, could not
be supposed to enter into all the naitiutim connector) with
the formation of ib" colony. He would sugge.st a course
which he thought would reconcile the two objects which
they had in view, namely, the deal a to have some-
essztraace from Government that the colony should, in its
f..nura governmeet, be placed upon a better feendation,
and, at the same time, Imo: the preishog exigency ( f the
case. He propeaed that the quea'i :n of a loan should her
postponed for a shert time, but that the Government should,
to•morrow or the next day, cr at as early a
period as possible Ity upon the table of the flou-se nn esti-
mate of the rotaences actually incurred, nerd of bills due,
for which prevision must he made, and that the Govern-
ment should come forward and propose to take just so much
as required by the exigency —( Hear, boa-.) Even in
point of (reel:env it would be unwise to delay the payment
of just demands. They would eventually have to pay not
only them but the incidental expenses which would have
occurri d.
Ti.e CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. wished
to know how the Hon. Baronet proposed to make the
advance?
Sir ROBERT PEEL said that his propu:iition was to
take the bills due and to give the Government the power
cf at once wanting a loan.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL via that before be addressed
hinielf to the prop,s'nion c f the Hoc. ,Baronet he must cx-
press his surprise at the course which had been taken by
the Noble Lorl. H,a had ce t slay thought it right on A
subject of this kind that there should be a Committee.
The lied r Secretary of State bad stated to the House,
• on the pert of the Government, that there were two thirge
which w-uld he kept in tier, one, the relief of those persoag
who required it, and the ether, to /lace toe Colony under the
con. r.. 1 of the Crown. In the Cerna i tee on this subject tht
Noble Lord bat propos.ei a reeclution to tlc (fleet, that
delay n n
d
greatly tona;tl,-”g t.v. ;TXrei r
ce , edit:. e y
ntt) notNo dci
proposed a coarse which must Ice Ito delay. Had he
(Lord John Russell) brought forward a Bit oSt ti.e sub-
jt.ct, :he relief m'glit have been retot ded by opposition ow
that (the Ministerial) side of the House. With regard to,
the proposi' ion just made, he thought that it quite met the
exigencies of the case. In whic'e ev r shape the relief
was administered, it would be cqnnlly satitf.xtory to the
parties.
Lord STANLEY rose to explain. He had objected.
and did still object to dell', but he did not sec how that
was inconsistent with what he had prelim-el, namely, that
they should 'be put in possession of the views which her
'Majesty's Gave-nrnent entertained c iA) regard to tile future
Governrneet ;of the colony. The Noble Lord should
have brought for card hit Bill at the commencement of the
session; and be ought not t) have been influenced by the
fear of opposition frdm (Our side of the House. It m;
fir t his (Lard Stanley's) fault that no all had been laid
before l'aelirient, and that the Government had ender,-
veured to throw that burden upon the Committee which
properly belonged to CAI executive.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER srid,
that there never was a case in which Governmeat bad
shown less anxiety to throw off responsibility. So far
from shrieking, his Noble Friend, when he moved for a
Committee heel distinctly stated what. measures the Ge-
l/erns:lent intended to propose. If they had ccmc to she
amuse with a Bill, objections wild doubtless have been
made to that course of proseedirg.—( Hear, bear.) Tho
Government would then have been accused of taking
upon themselves an undue authority. An in-
stance of that . kind occurred the other dae.
'' on the Goren:went propsniag an increase in the navy
vp
for Samford contended that the proaer course would have
expenditure on their own re-poesibiiity, the Hon. Nienibtr
been to send it to a Committee.--( Haar, hen'.) On the
whole he thought the cosy se tatea by the Noble Lord was
most unfair to the Government.
Mr. GROTE said he was ore of those who supported
la,. l.ia for ti c formation of this colon:, and notwith-
'an i;;
Ing.:.rY w' at had been said he must await the result of
further
before. he would be pre aged to say that it
dear, heir.) He quq, agreed in the
‘opinion ‘tirouhriceb—L 1 begin expressed that de'ay would in-
CielSC the mischief, and tnett _Parlieereat would cv ntually
be called upon to into fare tc, a much greater extent.
The Ileuse must not forget that the quantity of ealitat_
property-2-that there was a vast
now in that colony amounted to not liaz Nan 2 1500,00001.000 f
njoB(lo.thcr
sheep, and 15,000 heal of other cattie, and n.. 31
,obonr
colony had the stream ef enterprise and ir'dl;;at.l(Haat,
fl wed in so rapidly as in that of Sout'l Ausnra.
the circuae
hear. ) '1 here was nothing extraordinary
forward to ask
stances under which the colony had ca.Te
cx,,:icr. If
the aid of the mother country in a Pre •iegb
and s_pirit
ttatt party
the question vas divested of
.cd in the course of the
which he regretted to see dif
Pl:itind as t pri,.-
crliatity of eintle,
ei,eussion, they were
• wr.s.tee would recollect that there
e"'"din it' IlictC(rja3 1)11; erawn by Vie Go' truce
of
were a dLlionource. A vessel vvas about
eight on which the
upon the ,colonyi 3 "socught, and the vecnstity
sail.
ri'"; laosalds° INeroduc ive ultimately Li
to
l that
t that it muchla for an indefinite period
stble
that there was.no
. required, oth th
the
ey
f t ey
c',*(l'l)Ye n"t
knowns eettraenaasistiweallnlyi'asst pion:
the k tre pr,sp-ritv el the colony f
would
'o—ft,ve
tint understood it to be tt
nro,..cV .or a ions'
g cutest
o r of riin,,cLotiven t,e traces aienatd.3nni:teitsmeerll,li)icueriri.
ot
ef
parczmenlitiel:
.c general
atfi:PlAiton t(uCe4'.4ll,:atrt, et tocheessas'yanir; n.
( Hear, hear.)
regret, eat tinn igled withL
osuuar pir car
tul;
st
osapyi
ntilorant
thhies
c opinion,iin tttalet itti ut
Noble Friend near him—( tlt-had 14enherichh heard
fmwu.F
wlaes :Co
aff
int
oc et 0.;
Li i:y of the Government, there cliff. rcec
ueacisity of Parliamentar
It ape( arcs to him that l'ellaly'cr*P''iLi''pn.—(ll'.aar'e
would
be extremely prejudicial, lisnat rTeleent Cc 05n1 mitt cc
would racace; that bills to a 'a-g'. emount, %atria had
been, dishonoured, were still 1 (r'in the bands of the
me:c-aests t whom they bat 1)3-.;eung 7r,0,f rred. If thares
bills were leturned to the colony els,honoured the result
w ;e1 Ibe to paral se its energies—it would lead to discs-
should take
le-, and pabsolutely lunge there into irretrievable ruia. It waa,
theref we,
place.—( Ile reg.e...tcd that his Noble Frlend had
found it necess:,ry to express any (niaion upon the pro-
cc e linos of the Commissiotess, or to indulge in any tin-
e tiled for and unce;esra-y censure on the sound and ju,11.,,
necessary that no delay
citrus principle of aelf-suppoiting colorise'.—(he r, hear. )
The Nelda Lord appeaie•l fs.rget that the principle
which tb, thiltrd Sta•es Cr t started was a selF7suppottiag
one; a.l ough Colonel Gawler was not prctent
subsequet t disaA.?rs of the colony rri,,ht be
defend himself; ail must admit Vitt it was to his mismr-
eat'mitted that a largo turn had bean !ail mat
ttnoraargcpcemudb*elnietHt,t;'orha, but th.t was a sum allies the Gern.
meet wonld ultimately intce nn reason to regret. the did
ine think that country would suffer any groat or permanent
miss by the luau, hu`..cvsAtlf it did there were few of the
Australian colonies that had been acquired at so small an
expense.
Mr. PARKER said that be had endeavoured to make
as fair a Report as he possibly auld for his Right Rea.