The Sun.
London, England, 1824-02-17 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Mr. BLACKBURNE presented a petition from the town
and neighbourhood of Lancaster, praying for a commutation
of tithes.

TAX ON COALS.
Petitions were presented, praying for a repeal of the duties
on Coals carried coastwise, from 600 inhabitants of Ulverstone,
by Mr. STANLEY ; from the inhabitants of St. Ives, by Sir C.
BAWKINS from the Mayor and Corporation of the Borough
of Deal, by Sir E. KNATCHDOLT„. from the inhabitants of
Ilfracombe and Iloldsworth, by Sir T. D. ACLAND ; from a
village in Cornwall, by Sir W. LEMON ; from the inhabitants
of Teignmouth, by Captain BarrAnD ; from those of Staines,
by Colonel WOOD ; from the town of Minehead, by Sir T.
LETHBRIDGE ; from the Isle of Portland, by Mr. Pon •r-
MAN ; from the, inhabitants of Romford, and also those of
Raynham, by Sir EI.IAE ILtnvicr.
Sir W. GUISE presented a petition from the woollen-manu-
factures of the County of Gloucester, against the importation
of foreign wool.
Mr. Alderman WOOD moved, that there laid before the
House. a Return of the total quantity of Spirits imported in
the last year from Scotland into England.—Ordered.
Mr. MABERLY Fare notice, that lie should move to-
morrow for the production of certain Returns relative to Malt
and Beer.

Mr. F. LEWIS rose in consequence of the indisposition of
his Right Hon. Friend, the Master of the Mint, who wished to
be present at the Debate, to ask an Hon. Baronet on the other
side of the House to postpone to some future day his motion
for " An Address for inquiring how far the Coin of the Realm
may be adapted to decimal calculation."

Sir J. WitOT'iESI4EV, in consequenceof the request of
the Hon. Gentleman, postponed his motion till Wednesday
se'nnight.
USURY LAWS' REPEAL BILL.
On the motion that this Bill be read a second time,
Mr DAVENPORT rose to give to it his most decided op.
position. -The country had grown great and flourished under present system, of law—where, then, was the necessity of
altering it ? Besides, the alteration proposed would be particu-
larly disastrous to persons with small landed estates, and would
absolutely ruin all those who had bought them ten years ago
when land was high, and when there was no objection to leav-
ing part of the purchase-money unpaid upon it. This Bill
might raise, but could not lower, the present rate of interest ;
and as he felt more for the borrower than he did for the lender,
he could do no less then move, as an amendment, that this Bill
be read a second time this day six months.
Mr. BRANSBY COOPER seconded the amendment,
because he thought that the repeal of the Usury Laws would
open a door to fraud and extortion on the one hand, and to
reckless profusion and extravagance on the other.
Mr. HUME contended that this bill was quite as much to
the advantage of him who borrowed as of him who lent money.
It would, be thought, bebeneticial to all classes of society, if
the lending of the • money was assimilated to the
.practice ob.
served in effecting insurances, -where the person by whom a ship
or cargo was insured was not prevented by any statute from
demanding whatsoever rate he pleased. Every transaction of
this kind ought to come fairly before the public;, and if any
thing unjust or unfair appeared to have been done, the indi-
vidual aggrieved might seek redress through the common law
of the country. He could see no reason whatsoever for post-
'rting po the second reading of the Bill. It ought to be fully
discussed,
and an opportunity given to those who opposed it to
bring forward their arguments, if they had any. It ought to
be observed, that the ordinary interest of money was, at the
present moment, from three to four per cent., being considera-
bly under the rate fixed by the statute. The country was, in
his opinion, much obliged to the Learned Gentleman for pent-
veringwiththis measure. •

Sir J. WRO"I"I'ESLEY supported the amendment. During
300 years the uniform practice of the Government of this coun-
try had been to prevent extortion and usury, by enacting those
laws which some individuals now wish to be repealed. This
country, instead of being injured, had been greatly benefitted
by the Usury Laws. Since the period of the last Act, that
of Queen Anne, there was no country in which capital had
accumulated to so great an extent as it had done in England ;
and yet they were now called upon to repeal laws which
brought the whole capital of the country into the metropolis.
If they were repealed, it ought not to be on mere theoretical
grounds—some practical good should be pointed out as like-
ly to be effected by the measure. He contended that those
laws had done no practical injury to the landed interest. In
times of distress, it was true, they borrowed money at a great
disadvantage. But it should not be forgotten, that when they
gave redeemable annuities, those annuities might, in time, be
taken up. The persons who now lent money to the land inte-
rest at 3i per cent., would, if those laws were repealed, change
their demand with every fluctuation. Now they would have
4, now 5, now 6 per cent. In short, there would be no cer-
tainty in the money market. If, in the time of distress, the
landed interest could borrow money at 5 per cent., what would
become of the commercial interest? In proportion as the secu-
rity they had to offer was worse than that afforded by the landed
interest, would the lender demand a more exorbitant rate—not
less nerhaps than 10 or 12 per cent. In tact, the mercantileand
manufacturing interests would be reduced to the utmost distress
if those laws were repealed. Let the House also consider the
situation in which the Government would be placed. During
the last war, whilst the mutiny in the Nore was raging, when
the Bank Restriction Act was passed, and when the public
funds were under 50, no difficulty was experienced in borrowing
money : but he was convinced, if those laws had not then. ex-
isted, that Government would not have been able to raise the
money which was absolutely necessary. They would not have
had that preference in the market which they ought always to
have ; and they would have been compelled to pay an interest
of 10 or 12 per cent. If, therefore, the repeal of those laws was
calculated to starve the merchant and manufacturer, and to
beggar the Government, the House ought to throw out this
Bill, and that, too, by such a majority as would induce the
Learned Gentleman never-again to bring it forward.
Air. J. SMITH said, the lion. Baronet seemed to fear that
the mercantile and manufacturing classes, and even the Go-
vernment itself, must suffer by the repeal of those laws. Now,
without entering into much argument on those points, it might
he enough to state, that the laws against usury had been done
away all over Europe, and no harm• had occurred either to go-
varnment. or to individuals; but, on the contrary, it was to be
believed that the interests. of all parties.' were, much improved
by that repeal.—(Bear !)—One or two circumstancechad come
under lais own observation, which proved that those laws had

occasioned the most destructive effects to families in this coun-
try, by compelling them to raise money by way of annuity.,_
(Hear!)—Money, like every other commodity, ought to be al-
lowed to fetch its just value in the market. Now, if an indivi-
dual wanted to borrow money, which if these laws were not in
existence, he might procure for 7/. per cent., he would be ob-
liged, in his endeavour to evade those laws, to pay 13, 14; or
-even 15 per cent.—( Hear !)—The Hon. Baronet-had only to
refer to the evidence given before the Committee, and there he
would find those facts distinctly proved. The Hon. Baronet
expressed sonic fears as to the situation in which the corinner-
cial body would be placed, if this Bill passed. -Now he (Mv.
Smith), as one of that body, must say that he had not the
slightest apprehension on the subject. He confessed: that he
never had met a man for whose judgment he had any respect,
who entertained a doubt on the question.—(Hear
Mr. GRENFELL said, the chief argument against the Bill
was, that the effect of the repeal of the usury laws would be to
raise the interest of money. Now, in Holland, there never was
any restraint on money dealings; and he could state it from his
own experience, as well as from history, that there was no
country in Europe where the rate of interest has been and is so
low as in the United Provinces.—(Hear !)—He hoped, there-
fore, that Government would countenance this measure, which
was in perfect unison with the liberal course of policy they had
recently adopted.
Mr. HUSKISSON said he had been a Member of the Com-
mittee to whom this subject was referred in 18113, and who had
reported their sentiments to the House. The opinion he bad
formed in that Committee he still entertained. „Indeed he had
never varied from it. He need hardly say that it was entirely,
in unison with the object of the Learned Sergeant. Ile con-
sidered those laws as only calculated to create difficulties.--
(Hear, hear !)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, when
this question was brought before the House last session, he
voted against the proposition, not because there was any ad-
vantagein the principle of the existing laws, against which, on
the contrary, many arguments could be advanced—but be-
cause he was not prepared to say that the moment had arrived
when Parliament ought to repeal those laws. lie did not think
that the opposition to the measure was now so strong as it was
last year; and if it were desirable at all that those laws should
be altered, he conceived the present period was as good as could
be selected.—( Bear !)
Mr. CALCRAFT said it would be very difficult, he was
aware, to defend those laws in point of principle ; hut, in
point of practice, he must say that it would be dangerous with-
out a great deal more consideration, to alter those laws in a
country where there was so general and so beneficial a distri-
bution of capital, and where money was to be had at all times
at a low rate of interest. If the Learned Gentleman with
whom this measure originated thought, while Government
was in the market, that any change of the law would make
the loan of money cheaper to individuals, he was very
much mistaken. He (Mr. Calcraft) believed the repeal
of those laws would raise the price of money to Govern-
ment, instead of reducing it. Gentlemen seemed to suppose,
that by carrying this measure, individuals would be saved from
ruin, because they would not then be obliged to get into those
annuity-contracts under which so many families suffered : they
believed that a complete end would be put to all ruinous money
contracts. But it was utterly impossible to hope for any such
result, unless at the same time that those laws were repealed,
they contrived to alter the conduct and temper of individuals.—
By repealing those laws they would facilitate the borrowing of '
money by extravagant persons, without conferring any advan-
tage on the steady and industrious part of the community,
whom they ought especially to protect. He was not on the corn-
mittee.—( The Bon. Member was here reminded that he was a
member of the committee.) —lf he were on the committee, he
had certainly forgotten the circumstance.—(A laugh.)—He had,
however, read the evidence; and, had he known that the
Learned Sergeant's brat, which had been bandied about froin
Session to Session, was to have been taken tip by Government,
be would have brought down that evidence, and proved that it
did not bear out the view of those who supported this measure.
No advantage had been pointed out that would at all warrant
them on such a speculation. There was no
country, n
embarking;
itself, in which wealth had so greatly
in eomt
evenbar fl
Icn
increased as it had done in England during the period when
those laws were in operation.
Mr. lierjeant ONSLOW defended the bill. The Gentle-
man who seconded the amendment and the Ilonourable Bart.
had fallen into very great mistakes with regard to these laws.
—They had spoken of the policy in which the usury .laws ori-
ginated;
rtostyoi sfc,outushruesreeerastrh: yewllrai
who charged
ihillwag;'ragoseftwiiniol
but let them look to the preamble of the old law,
and. they would find it therein stated, that, to take interest at
praised an i
propor-
tion d
the as
all was highly criminal, because it was "against a Christian
moneyothey
i
to the risk they ran, but who charged also on account of
highlyhparinvdesipolpfeo.ihi politic.
the odium they were compelled to endure. They were told
that this mearure would destroy the landed interest, who at
present could raise money by redeemable annuities. So_ they
could, and so they had done ; and the evidence taken before
the Committee proved that they paid 10, 12, 13, and even 14 per
cent. This was the excellent remedy which the Hon. Baronet
wished them to resort to. It was also said that the commercial
interest would be borne down by this measure. Let them
look at the evidence again, and attend also to what'had fallen
from his Hon. Friend (Mr. Smith). It was notorious that com-
mercial men, when in difficulties, had, to evade these laws,
borrowed stock, and lost 30 per cent. by selling it. His prin-
ciple was, that like all other trades, die trade is money should
be unfettered.

Mr. A. BARING said, the subject of making a change in
the usury law* WM, undoubtedly, one of very considerable im-
portance. It was, however, a change which would produce no
immediate effect whatever; and it was because it would not
produce any effect that the present appeared to hint to be the
best time for making the alteration—if for no other purpose
than to remove a system of false legislation on this subject. It
was, as his Hon. Friend had said, as improper to fix a maxi-
mum on the value of money, as on the value of any other article
whatever. This was the only period, for the last half century,
when Parliament could safely legislate on those laws, in support
of which the ingenuity of those who approved of them afforded no
argument. It was stated, that notwithstanding these laws, there
had been a great accumulation of money in this country. But
the reason was, because those laws, with respect to capitalists
and monied men, had been quite inoperative, as they were very
easily evaded. t was strange that the very class which would
above all others be be benefitted by the repeal of those laws,
namely, the country gentlemen, should view the measure with
so much apprehension.—(Hear!)—The interest taken in this
subject by that very respectable class of men was most evident;
and therefore the question ought to be discussed, in order that
they might declare their sentiments, and that an endeavour
should be made to remove their apprehensions and prejudices,
if possible. lf, in the subsequent stage of the proceedings, those
who supported the measure were not able to persuade the coun-
try gentlemen that this Bill would not be injurious, but favour-
able to them, they might then except from its provisions all
loans of money on mortgage, and repeal the law as it respected.
the manufacturer and merchant. If the country gentlemen
pleased, they would thus be left to enjoy all the benefits of the
present system, which, so far from being useful, appeared to be
the greatest- injury and curse they could labour under.—(Hear !)
Captain 3IABE RI. Y, Sir W. DE CRESPIGN Y, anti Mr. J.
M ART 1 x, severally expressed themselves in favour of the Bill.
The House then divided, when the numbers- were—
Tor the Bill - 120
Against it - 23
Majority for the second reading - - 79
On re-entering the gallery, we found the CHANCELLOR
of the EXCHEQUER on his legs, moving that the• Report
of the Committee on Ways and Means be brought up.
It was not his intention, the Right Hon. Gentleman said, to
move those votes on the present occasion which related to An-
nual Duties, because he understood that it was the intention
of an lion. Member (Mr. Bright) to move an amendment with
respect to the tax on Foreign Spirits.
Mr. Bitinwr and- Mr. MABERLY said a few words, after
which this course was assented to.
DEPUTY REMEMBRANCEBSHIP OF THE EX-
CHEQUER.
Mr. BARING requested to he informed of the circmstances
under which Mr. Vincent, after the death of the late Deputy
Rentembrancer, Mr. Steele, had been appointedAo this office.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that:Mr.
Vincent's appointment was temporary. The Liw whichcatne
into operation-at the deathof Mr. Steele did. not provide for
the abolition of the office of Deputy Retnembrancer, or fix the
manner in which the duties of that. office should. henceforward,
be performed ; it only•required that,' whenever thakevent took,
place the- Lords of the- Treasury should determine, what.
sho4, Le titauture duties_ of.titt office, Mid: Whfli IlhQUid;
the extent of the emolument arising from it. The Lords

of the Treasury, accordingly, upon the death of Mr. Siteeif, •
lost no time in calling upon the Barons of the Exchequersrand
upon the Chancellor of-the Exchequer,,t,o report to•thent as to
the nature of the office; but the tact was, that_. the -
it,• from the nature and constitution of the Exchequer, weizet•ala-
-30111 tely necessary to be continued until some new •systegi
could be arranged; and it was not very easy to decide ,by •
what system the business would be best done, and with jiai,t
expence to the public. Pending
,this• inquiry, howeyer,
Mr. Vincent had been appointed. He was required, himselgtO
perform the duties of the place, and allowed -tio,cleputy;atM
he was directed to receive the accustomed tees for the,present,.
not keeping them for himself, but paying them into the copeo-
litlated furd ; the Lords of the Treasury, of course, reserving
to themselves the power of giving him_ an adequate competuna-
tion for his labour. For himself, thg•Chancellpr of the .I'...4Che-
quer added, he was most anxious to regulate the office in that •
way which should be most conducive to the public servicel'and
whatever difficulty there might be in determining the precise
mode in whiCh the necessary duties should be executed, 'there
could be no doubt they would be performed at a considerable
less expence than they had been heretofore. For the appoint- •
ment of Mr. Vincent, it was merely temporary ; and there was
a full-understanding that he was to have no claim to the,situa—
tion when the Treasury should he prepared to arrange a permit-.
nent establishment.

•
Mr. BARING professed himself satisfied with the Right
Hon. Gentleman's explanation ; and trusted that the new al.-,
rangement would amount to a complete remodelling of the
Exchequer. It was high time that the country got rid of a
system of keeping accounts so cumbrous and so•ineffici:nt, that
it might almost disgrace a tribe of Indian savages.
WAYS AND MEANS.

The report was then brought up, and.the resolutions read.
To the pension duty Mr. HUME objected as partial and
unproductive. The whole sum produced by this duty,was
300,00 W. a 'year ; for the Treasury had power to relieve any
persons or classes from it that they might think fit. As. it
seemed to him, the tax. ought to be re-modelled, or entirely
abolished and he should take a further opportunity (as we-
understood the honourable Gentleman) of adverting to the
subject.
The resolutions were then agreed to.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.

On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER;
that the house should resolve itself into a Committee of
Supply,
, .
Mr. HUME rose to present a petition connected with the
charges for the Navy. The petitioner was a gentleman of the
name of Burridge, who had lately written upon the subject of
" Dry Rot ;" and the petition stated very-extensive injury ac-
cruing of late years front that disease to our shipping ; inso-
much, that nearly one-half the vessels in the Navy were more
sea-worthy
o t
or t rye
or less visited by it; and several ships, the Lord Nelson, the-
. Lord Howe, the Queen Charlotte, and others, had lately, upon
a survey, been. found to be entirely destroyed. The peti-
tioner added, that it would appear, upon calculation, that ow-
ingl to this disease, the number of
1
h repress
ss
)e which
evil.a
at
present composed our Navy was smaller than that which
; and prayed that the
3wBleor
a. hriaii du
ofe.
Admiraltyawinatsa desirous
ineestilroin
l wouldi thelil :to know what the Admiralty
n s
etyearake m 7
was prepared to do in this matter, which seemed to him to be
one of the very highest importance. It was quite certain that
the English oak had not been used formerly to decay, as it
did now. For the coal tar, which had been supposed a remedy,
he understood that it did nothing but mischief ; it injured the
health of the men, and did no good to the timber. He was in_
formed that ships built in America,_ from wood felled at the
season when the sap was not in the tree, were not subject. to.
dry rot,—or at least, not in the same degree with those built by
us, from wood felled when the sap was in it. Whatever might
be the merits of the petition, he thought there could be no
doubt that the subject was one which demanded the fullest at-.
tention and discussion.