The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-06 00:00:00

1847.

prepared to take measures this session to regulate the
public charities.

Sir GEORGE GREY stated that the question was
already undtT the nmiirieration of the Lord Chancel:or.
DESTITUTE PERSONS (IRELAND) ADVANCES

BILL.

On the order of the day for bringing up the report on
this Bill being read,
Lord CLEMENTS wished to call the attention of
her Majesty's Government to the Irish charities which
were at present lying dormant. He would name a few
of these charities. There was the Irish Peasantry So-
ciety and the British and Irish Ladies' Society, both of
which had received subscriptions to a very large
amount. The British and IrishiLadies' Society had
received the sum of 12,3001. from the subscriptions
of 1822, when the last famine visited Ireland,
There was another society which had received sub-
scriptions to a similar amount. There was also a
handsome subscription collected in the :city of Dublin
by a society, which afterwards dissolved itself, h-aving a
large balance in the Bank of Ireland. Now, these
funds could not be touched, unless by an Act of
Parliament, and when they were called upon for ad-
vances to meet the destitution which prevailed in Ire-
land, he wished her Majesty's Government to to©k
after the funds. One society, called the Repro-
ductive Society, had a large sum to their account.
He would not at present call the attention of the House
to the Destitute Persons' Bill, but he would say, that
there were divers provisions in that Bill which would
render it ineffectual, and still more difficult of management
thanithe present system of public works. He had asked the
Chancellor of the Exchequer last night what Govern-
ment intended to do to provide employment, and was
informed that it was proposed to do so by the Labour
Employment (Ireland) Bill. He did not know whether
Government was aware of what would be required to
carry out that measure. There were 2,050 electoral
divisions in Ireland. They would also require a staff
for each of these electoral divisions, which would be
under the control of a central committee, of which the
Lord Lieutenant was the head. He thought that was
impracticable, and he would beg of her Majesty's Go-
vernment to reconsider that Bill. He gave the Govern-
ment full credit for sincerity, but he did not think this
measure practicable. It would be necessary to form new
districts throughout the land, and this would require
some persons of considerable local information. He did
not see that it would be possible for the Lord Lieutenant,
with the machiaery of the present Bill, to come to a
just decision. He had no objection to the names
of Colonel Jones, and Mr. Redington, and
Colonel M'Gregor being introduced as members of
the board, but it would be impossible for them (were
they giving every attention to the measure, and he had
no doubt they would do so as far as in them lay) to
superintend efficiently the working of an extensive
measure of this kind.

In answer to a question from Mr. WILLIA➢IS, in re-
ference to the way the funds would be advanced,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
could only repeat what he had stated before. The ad
vances would be made from the Consolidated Fund
300,000/. was proposed now, and when more was re-
quired, he would come down to the House, and ask
them for a vote. The money would be voted from time
to time, as it was required. . .

The report was then brought up and received.
DESTITUTE RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
The order of the day for going into Committee upon
the Destitute Relief (Ireland) Bill was then read.
On the motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair,
Mr. HUTT rose and said that he was anxious to say
a few words on the subject of the distress in Ireland.
He entirely concurred with his Honourable Friend in
lamenting that the Government should have adverted to
the subject of emigration in somewhat disparaging terms,
He lamented it the more, as he looked upon it
as one—if not the only means —by which
the country could be rescued from the terrible
calamities which were impending over them.—(Hear.)
There were in Ireland upwards of 1,500,000 heads of
families, who maintained themselves on the verge of
starvation, their wages varying from 2s. to 2s. 6d. per
week, and a -small portion of potatoe land, whilst, in
order to give them the coarsest and cheapest bread, it
was necessary that they should have from 7s. to
Bs. per week. Seven shillings were scarcely
sufficient, and yet the whole rental of Ireland, which
was barely ten millions, was barely enough to support
them upon the grossest description of food. Even sup-
posing that every source of dncome was sunk, it would
not give more than seven shillings per week
to each of the labouring population of Ireland.
The fact was, that it was utterly impossible for Ireland
to meet the demand of its population, from the destruc-
tion of thepotatoe crop. Let them say what they might,
or do what they might, a poor-law giving a right to
out-door relief could never be carried into effect in Ire-
land—and for this reason, that the gross revenue from
the soil would be utterly insufficient for the destitution
which it would be called upon to relieve. The acreable
production of England was four times as
great as the acreable production of Ireland. Why
then, he would ask, did this disparity
exist? The soil of Ireland was not less fertile
than the:soil of England, perhaps it was more so. It could
not, therefore, be attributable to that cause. The reason
he thought must be the indifferent system -of agriculture
which existed in Ireland, and until an improvement
took place in this respect, he was afraid that
this disparity would still exist. The minute
subdivision of the land in Ireland also
presented insuperable obstacles to improvement. He
found, by a report laid on the table of the House,
that the whole extent of Ireland was cut up into
small holdings of from one rood to ten acres. Now,
he would ask what sub soiling could take place, what
drainage could be made, or what rotation of crops
could be put down under such a system ?
When the land was thus cut up into those miserable
shreds and patches, it was impossible to employ profit-
ably either capital or labour. They found that the
farmers in England were more consolidated for carrying
out improvements; but, in Ireland, the peasant culti-
vated his ground by himself and unaided. It required
four labourers more, in Ireland, to raise the same pro-
duce that would be raised by one labourer in England.
His plan was that there should be increased production
of the soil, which could be done only by more skilful
cultivation, which necessarily required that there should
be some consolidation of the miserable holdings in Ire-
land. He knew there were many opposed to such a
scheme, nor, he confessed, did he wish to see such ex-
tensive farms in Ireland as there were in this country.
He would wish the farms there to be of the size of what
would be called moderate farms in this country. But
this plan would require the removal of cotters. Govern-
ment proposed two schemes—the first to reclaim the
waste lands, the next to promote colonisation. The first,
certainly, would be beneficial. Colonisation, carried on
to a sufficient extent, would, by diminishing the demand
for food at home, which certainly would change favour-
ably some of the present relations between the land and
the occupier. There existed in the British colonies a
considerable demand for labour; and he could say, from
his own knowledge, that in the colony of South Aus-
tralia the demand for labour was at this moment intense.
He could assure the House that in the mining districts
there existed a demand for at least 5,000 heads of
families and those dependent on them; in addition, they
had a large territory in Polynesia, and he had no doubt
that an equal number of labourers would be required
there, as the occupants of that land were equally in
want of assistance. He would not say what quantity of
emigrants might be sent to Canada, and the regulations
from the Colonial office; but of this fact he was quite
aware, that there existed, both at home and abroad, im-
mense means of providing food for generations yet to
come. Now then he came to the cost, and he was afraid
that this was a question which they would be compelled
to scrutinise very closely, what would be the cost then,
of an extensive system of home and foreign colonisation
to such an extent as would give a sensible lift to Ire-
land? The cost, he believed, to the Imperial Treasury
would be just nothing at all. He was sure that the
whole outlay would be repaid by the reclamation of
waste lands, as well as from other sources.
He had been one of the commissioners appointed by the
Crown to manage the colonisation of South Australia,
in which he was connected with a most worthy and phi-
losophic gentleman, Colonel Torrens. They had been
the means of partly laying the foundation of an impor-
tant and prosperous colony. In order to establish this
colony, they had carried out 15,000 persons, and in the
course of a short time they had converted a forest and
a wilderness into the abode of an industrious and
thriving population.—(llear, hear.) They had been
able not only to meet all their expenses, but had
realised 85,000/. The Government at the time granted
80,0001. for the security of the colonial revenue. This
sum had been since adopted by the Colonial Govern-
ment, and had been since liquidated by the revenue of
the colony. With such facts before the House, why-
should not the same successful experiment be repeated
elsewhere ?--(Hear, hear.) In considering the question
of relieving the people, the House and the Government
should endeavour to carry out a systematic scheme
of colonisation on the principle which had been
found so successful in South Australia.—(Hear, hear.)
That unless we can get the means of feeding the popula-
tion of Ireland from the soil, Ireland must continue to
be supported out of the purse of England and Scotland.
by means of the importation of corn. He believed the
people of this country to be as liberal and as generous
as any other people under the sun ; but he knew full
well that there were limits to their generosity, and he
was convinced that if the Government of this country
should find it necessary to apply again to Parliament for
another grant they would find them in a state of alarm
and terror. He did, therefore, entreat her Majesty's
Government seriously to consider the question of emi•
gration, which he considered had been too lightly
weighed. He believed it to he the only means by which,
in the dreadful and unparalleled distress, they would be
enabled to rescue the property of Great Britain and Ire-
land from confiscation, and the people from the horrors
of famine.
Sir GEORGE GREY desired to bring back the House to
the original question under discussion, which was with refer-
ence to a Bill framed in such a way as the Government had
thought right to meet the existing, the pressing, the daily dis-
tress which was now pervading the country. He hoped, there-
fore, the House would be allowed to go on with the considera-
tion of the Bill.

Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN (who was very indistinctly
heard) wished to press upon the House a proposition, for which
no Act of Parliament was necessary—for the Poor-law Com-
missioners possessed already full powers to carry it into effect,
and would do so, if they received proper instructions. He pro,
posed to make a general electoral division of the town lands,
consulting not only the population and fhe extent of the teat.
tory, but also the space which each indlO2ival pro-
prietor should have on the property 13f such town land.
He would not go into the whole aspect or political character of
centralisation, but if there was a country less fitted than at2s
other for centralisation, it was Irels,nd. He now called upon
the House to giyp him its attention while he arraigned the two
great classes; of Ireland against each other. They were called
i
qpon to vote away millions for the relief of the distress n that
country, He would not say whether that was right or whe-
ther it was wrong, but the prorerecurring, never-ending ques-
ticiu wits, when they to do with the landlords of Ireland?

There were conti..ual accounts of a most different description
brought forward in that House. On one hand they were met
by cases of the greatest cruelty and selfishness, and on the
other by inetances of tre greatest self-denial, and the most
general philanthropy. The question they had to consider,
after they had passed these laws, and voted them millions, Val
what they were to do with the Irish landlords. He would
have had sone. difficulty in answering this question,
if he did not know, from his own knowledge,
that the Irish landlords a ere divided into two classes. There
were some of them who still clung to the most disgraceful pile'
tice of their class. There were others of them who looked for:,
ward to a better state of things, and who were ready to do se
in their power to accomplish such an object. That House.
was called upon to act with strict impartiality, and ;II
to interfere more than was actually necessary; e
they were called upon to show, by
expressed, as to those who pushed the rights of property
'Os
to the extremest limits, and those who discharged their duti_o
There could be no just objection to his plan, it would be. :ire
the benefit of Ireland, and yet the Irish party were not lune
places. He had always found that those who ought to
the last
them when a measure of this kind was prepared Were th
the opinions th
to do so.—( Hear, hear.) Now it 'was proposed to levy
e;
absentee-tax upon Ireland. Whatever might be the trro
of that tax, he must be allowed to say that at present it
ill-timed. A measure was before them for facilitating He
transference of incumbered estates, and they were doing!,
they could to induce English capitalists to invest their Isee'ee
in Irish land, and yet what were the inducements held ee",f,
the Irish party. Why, said they, "We will do everytbingee
heartily W'r„
facilitate the transfer of the land, and we most
you success with it when you get it, but then you,,Whatnut s
exile to your own land or pay an absentee-tax. Ned
foolish policy was this? Why not let the English eel
tee
tee
invest his money first, and then come down upon him twee, is
absentee-tax. Now, what he wanted the House to do was
draw a distinction between the landlord who did -his etttl',„o
the landlord who did not—to pass such a law that all the le of
lands should share in due and proper proportions the bus
maintaining the poor. What had been the whole tenor of
debates this session. No difference had been made bee,ol,
free-trader and protectionist, or Whig ,and ipg
The whole course had turned upon one question be that
upon the rights and duties of town lands, and in settlingpae
question he maintained that it was unfair to press headily uestate
the landlord, who did all in his power to improve Ins,ets to
without calling upon the landlord who neglected his es-0 se
bear an equal burden.—(Hear, hear.) Let them take
nseer
illustration of his position England and Ireland, and e°
them as two large towns. England was prosperottst.ol
flourishing—lreland was unhappy and destitute ; and 'with
unfair of Ireland, the English people said, to vest theinoe
the consequences of the misdeed of Ireland. It was Ire,
isee,
they said, to call upon them to relieve the sufferings of
because in times gone by she had neglected to inaprovebeeate
dition, and allowed opportunities for becomin wasrosercere 0
happy too, to slip by her.—( Hear, hear;) He not t to,
say that these charges against Ireland were without founds Ire'
nor had he ever attempted to deny that the landlords bad
Ireland had very much to answer for, but whether theliarj
done their duty or had not, if they took England and Ir;
separately, they must confess that tke whole force °dot
debates during the present session had resulted into aenv
townland question. The Right Hon. Gentleman bedie"-0.11
stantly said to the landlords of Ireland, " Help yourserosed
The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth inn bt.
the same upon them, and not for the first time, the other pig we
But they had also said if we make you help your° tint
make you help your neighbours also. All he asked sieere
e
they should separate the good from the bad landlords. tble°
were many landlords in Ireland who wished to gr's eyieg
with the people, and to lend their best exertions to cart Ass
out the most comprehensive measures of benefit. nisna'
by strengthening the hands of the goode„t and
lords that they would be able to carry "".t be
establish such beneficial laws.—(Hear.) It sen; that
well known to any one acquainted with the Irish pee' ese
mere law of itself, as passed by that House, had little P°l
on the people of Ireland. To remove them from that /Teo
allegiance should be the duty of all who took upon then::or
to direct the affairs of the country, whether in that Ilekoins!
acting in their own country as guardians. From his feel,
ledge of Ireland, and his acquaintance with thew!
ings and character of the people, and from the go
ledge he possessed of this country, he would repeat wee;
that these laws could not operate as efficiently as thee, sad
he had devised. Moral influences, ancestral influeeee agile
aristocratic influences, had more power over the Irisene rin•
than any law passed by that country. Seeing a motion tie itr
bility on the other side, he must explain that aristoers 0 the
fluence in Ireland had nothing to do with rank. It 'raid ble
influence of the landlord over his tenantry when heeteodee
duty. All he stated was to show the necessity he e"'" bode
for of making a distinction between the good and the badon the
lord. If they preserved the present system, you inflie`.. Ile
good landlord the punishment due to the bad
repeated that this distinction was warranted, for thee .10 with
of the different classes was known to all those fauue 0001
the
Ireland. It was not, perhaps, known to that House 004
acts of kindness which the recent circumstances of the edistere
called forth between landlord and tenant. How matr, bed
bailees had been crushed, how many unlawful charge, wore+
been reclaimed, how many evils had been soothed, jet etudes
how mach of kindness, and how much of heartfelt gill rry
to
—(Hear, hear.) Under these circumstances,. he was I:ebel%
see on the part of Government a desire, instead of dile din'
the area of territorial division to increase: it by the erect
eree
sions proposed. It was not his intention then to en bear/
the discussion of the Labour Rate Act—(Hear'
—but it was admitted to be, pro tant°'•lls
lity. Now that Act was going on ati ;033, be
another Act was coming in, which was the reason::ree
called the attention of the House to both Bills. The utter
ment said they were determined to proceed landloreistoon
with t other
rate instead of the electoral rate, they would injure rat, ip
than serve the country. He would oppose to
its every stage, with all the pertinacity which the forree °ipotesi
House permitted, the extension of taxation-410'4
not say dangerous, unjust, but fatal measures s on th°
the ut f the
Mr. LABOUCHERE said he should not treesla'ontotee,
attention of the House, now that it was going kite" Gentlero.
but considering the importance of what the fiesuiew bile
make
had said, that it was due to the House to
been
tions before the Speaker left the Chairs t. n. It had
flues to
by the Hon. Gentleman was not a new
by those to when
urged upon his (Mr. Labouchere) attention
and resPeCht;
he was bound to pay the greatest deference born t
namely, landed proprietors, magistrate.. and lU"' ear be
c,...arnment ; .1.. be. beard, the more neCe.- ciplo
considered it to weigh carefully the very important In!? was
involved in this question, and the more necessary
for Government to proceed with caution in deb be
ating upon it. Still they felt they would 10,00!
doing their duty to the people of Ireland, if they did not
nd
eider this question. The Hon. Gentleman had put le.r:iet
' this principle more clearly and strongly than it had ever to
The question raised
been expressed. His proposition was simply this--teieslt
provide for the distresses of Ireland it was necessary te.,",e)
not with committees, but with individuals.—(Heareeobe
It was admitted by deputations which he had received, tesoter
proprietors were willing to contribute largely, and t.„° icy,
into the system of electoral districts, and thus to give ewe the
ment to a considerable extent ; but they would do so moll ate
condition of being allowed to employ those to ;Oh
There
a, to
they gave labour on their own estates.
certainly, great objections to that ; they oaeuerd ere
him then, and he urged them ; but he wot
ti 0,00
now repeat them. What was the fact ? There wetnie
electoral districts in Ireland, occupying from ten
seffiele°t
,0
thousand acres each, which certainly was an extent ,„05ed
to induce co-operation for good. The questionePewleid yo,
deal with private property—Hon. Gentlemen sairiseing °re
deprive the proprietors in Leland of all motives 0" of tb
of their own property, and providing for the distressese the;
own poor. He did think it certainly wrong t°lllesepoe,fle
divisions so large as to prevent their taking care oftoe ter to g
their estates. But then to restrict the principles of tiSo
say, that they should enforce upon them the dote tent rt
care of any section of poor, merely 'I. Olt
fact of their being resident in a certain, in
this was not the principle of any poor-We,'
world with which he was acquainted. It certainly "eetie,tori,
principle of the law of England. It belonged to "°,
"4 fee del
and was merely a remnant of serfdom and a principle „
ism. It was to him a great objection that it tolesevb.,,.
principle, and such a principle as he considered to "1941'
inapplicable to Ireland or to England 'in the Yearieetedee
( Hear, hear.) But even if the principle were ad sew,
would be found that it would be utterly impracticable
voge
out the details. If they had 60,000 town lands ton d
if they had separate machinery far each of these, or sul
they had only one-half or even one-fourth of those lt:l:eget
utterly and absolutely impracticable to carry it 1131. t
But he would not go into that, as he held t..teobls'
arguments he had already gated were utterly unanswolt
He would take the case of a man possessed of large P all re
and he would suppose him to be called upon to suePereet se",
poor who might be located on his land, he asked, was 7,1 d be
a principle wholly inadmissible ? He held that it wee ore
discouragement to the improvement of property, all'ool
produce in many cases, monstrous injustice. He rant „nee:,
that the plan of the Hon. Gentleman was utter!) eee
ticable in the case of towns. The principle of diesetileS
townlands would throw an intolerable burden onto mes- plo"„i
villages. When he came, therefore, to the conclusle%
he did, he assured the Honourable Gentleman that itettee
without great deliberation and examination of the ET, f_Alfr
was not walnut consulting the most intelligentoPl-dere
were able to form an opinion, and considering themeeueeetee°'
crowded state of the population, as well as the gfseee" t
ost
tion of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He held then,o
townland, as the unit of taxation, would work erbe P
monstrous injustice, for while some proprietors amok: .thine'
tirely exempted from burdens which of right belonged '° not°
others would be crushed by the weight of what they wer.‘,
justice entitled to bear.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. S. O'BRIEN observed that he never bald the-
lands should be the unit of taxation. stiPP
f
Mr. LABOUCHERE said the' if they left the yft„
of electoral districts, the next lower division tobet
principle, come, as the unit el taxation, was townlands;
principle, he asserted, was not applicable to a free Pl!' el",
to a population in a state of serfdom. It was a fell.„0,
ciple, anti one which he never could recognise or stePtee efi
( Hoar, hear.) He thought the Hon. Gentleman eilt, oeff
much underrated the advantage of electoral elietreeetsgo
townlands in another point of view, namely, the Wee
•
co-operation and mutual support. The Honourab,' spe)
tleman himself might be in a condition te°„eciterej
of this from his own experience, but he (Mr, Lae:t Lori
could state that it had been productive of the grest-d Int
The relief committees which had been established he
fin e
the means of bringing those together who never met beim...AP:l
( Hear, hear.) The priest and the Protestant reeeeleree
landlord, the tenant, and the cess-payer—men of tee,'
creeds, and of different politics, were brought to act wiitobreeiri
to know one another, to appreciate one another, and
procate the advantages of mutual assistance.—(learns:ej,
He saw that during the last autumn, and De r",
opinion that it had tended very much to the tbe4ee
vantage of Ireland. He thceight, therefore, tie, bed
principle of working by communities, instead of by tewe'etifeei
would in the present measure be much the prefers 041
that it would be the most effective way to support
to assist the Government, and to carry out that neeeee'e wbj4b
ee
would require the aid of them all to realise the beee'sit ld
was intended by it. Theo, advantages he believed weetie tee
suit from the divisiee into electoral districts. Hew °OO,
then go into the pestion, whether electoral district° orotoblo
were preferable but he oould assure the o°°
Gentleman, that 'her Majesty's Government would aPPrea The
consideration of the subject with the greatest care.4o toe
question, however, was not whether they wouldtelectoral divisions larger, but whether they would in 0 a
smaller—whether they should proceed by electoral distrliederd
by townlands. He had given his reasons why he °o°l Ate°
the former the preferable mode, and he believed the tres -ere
evil would result UK was not adopted, If any gentian
_w_nr,
again disposed to raise the question, he would have an ~rlO
tunity of dobeg
at
the
A fter a
few
words
ordons
ianfuextuprlesnoacteiaosoionfr;embult
ihro. h:Te:tir
Meantime, the Bill would be allowed to proceed. ~0010
O'BRIEN, al °Pe
Mr. MORE O'FERRAL believed that the subject wed p 1
which called for the most deliberate consideration from
Government, Les
Government, and one on which English Membersld wemr.ries
liarly fitted to give an opinion. His Hon.
perfectly distinet—the division into electoral districts ee'ren,
bouchere) appeared to him to confound two Errand
plieable to the Poor-rate Act of last session, and to the P
to posed Poor-law. He (Mr. F. Malik) was opposed
landlords of Ireland when they made the application yew.
4'l 3114 Ilia wawa was,. becaun this -
which we