The Sun.
London, England, 1841-05-28 00:00:00

Ink might not this occur with respect to other measures of
!Neter importance If such a state of things existed, it was
clear ..A—.first'one Minister then another might be defeated on a
budget, by the same House of Commons. It was enough for.him
that the case wi's a probable one ; and in a nicely balanced
Roe of Commons such things might take place. The
night Hon. Baronet had coheson the House to declare that
the course pursued by the Government was contrary to the
,„
nstitution. He denied that the course pursued by the Right
`1,°12. Baronet was consistent with usage. The }tight Hon.
goner in his speech, had confoUnded that want of confi-
eenee which appeared in the resolution with that want of eon-
idence which, if a Minister had it not, he ought not to remain
in office. The Right Hon. Baronet bad stated that he would
go back to the time when the house of Hanover first ascended
the throne ; and having done so, he would ask whether it had
been ever known that aMinistry had retained office after hay-
ing had such severe defeats as the present Ministry. He need
en y refer to the times of Lord Stanhope and Lord Sunderland.
- was there ever a mere important measure brought into Par-
liament than Lord Sunderland's Peerage Bill? That Bill was
recommended by George the First from the throne, and was
thrown out by a large majority. But did Lord Sunderland
resign? Certainly not. And he (Mr. Macaulay) had no
doubt that if that Noble Lord had been told that he must re-
Sign, he would asked to whom he was to resign.
---( Hear, hear. ) So with the present Ministers. 'l'o
whom, hewould ask, were they to resin?—(Hear, hear.) Mr.
Pitt in 1786 did not resign although he was beaten on the ques-
tion of the fortifications. The resolution of Mr. Pitt on that
subject was to this effect, that the fortifying of certain dock-
yards was an object of essential importance to the safety of this
.ec°4l'trY• On that question Mr. Pitt was beaten, and imme-
- s'a4tely upon that he stood up in the House and said, " I take this
as the decision of the House," but did he tender his resignation ?
certa inly not,
sndit was clear those Members who opposed him
• never entertained the notion that he was called upon to resign.
orsuPPcoing such a resolution as the present to have been brought
forward, what would Mr. Pitt have said ? He would have
said,sai I consider it an important measure, and absolutely
ntial to the welfare of the country ; but with regard to the
Principles of my administration, I am satisfied I have the
- confidence of the country, and therefore I shall not resign."
..During the administration Of Lord Castlereagh, did Mr.
ith
Tierney. and the other great men who were associated
w;
ft, him, call upon the Government to resign when
Y were beaten on any important occasion ?—( Hear. )
Certainly not, nor did they ever think of telling them that it
Wasas at variance with the spirit of the Constitution to hold
°ee after they had been defeated. Now all these instances
that he bad adverted to took place at a time before the Re-
form B:11 came into operation, a measure which he was sure
•all must adm it, had effected a very great change. Then came
tile Reform Bill, which swept away 300 or 400 gentlemen
who represented only themselves, and they were replaced by 200
°r 300 gentlemen whoh ad large constituencies to account to, arid therefore no Government could expect to be successful
with any measure they recommended. Under the Reform Bill,
onwhen parties were so nearly balanced, if the resolution of the
ight Hon. Baronet was laid down as constitutional law it
would be impossible for any Government to carry on the admi-
• ttistration of affairs—(Cheers)—and if the Right Hon. Baronet
came into power to-morrow there would be very few months in
se"ion that he would not be reminded of it in a very unplea-
iVatt wily. As he understood the constitutional law it was this,
the House either directly or indirectly declared
its want of confidence in a Ministry they must either retire
or resort to a dissolution. But he was of opinion that there
'flight be legislative measures which a Government might not be
Peble to carry, and yet it would not become their duty to retire.
hnboth sides of the House he hoped it would be assented to
Itat many ways might be found to test the question then under
iscussion without putting on record in the Journals of the
neose such an unwise, uncertain, and, as he believed, mis-
e'levous Proposition as that moved by the Right Hon. Bas
irTet• Up to that time the Ministers were perfectly jus-
"",ed in the course they had taken, for they fully
I.liered
nt that their general
_policy commanded the as-
they,a majority of the House. Up to that period
es °ad reason to believe that they could administer the G0..--rwroant
..--rwroant with satisfaction to themselves and benefit to the
ittritrY• It was but little more than one year since the
t• --use refused to entertain such a motion, and during that
0141,,e had the foreign policy, he would ask, been that of a weak
verinnent ?—( Loud cheers.) He would ask whether, if the
Ministry was possessed of a majority snch as Lord Grey's Go-
Evernment commanded of about 250, could it be wished that
ngland could speak in bolder or nobler language than had
„sn used by her Foreign Minister ?—( Hear, hear, and loud
s'eer'.) Let the present Government give the reins of
Power into %hose hands they might, they would leave
the political influence of England abroad ueimpaired,
her
ohs Hanle respected, and her arms untarnished. (Loud
s—eers.) Then, with respect to our domestic policy ; two years
-g° we had been threatened with one of the most serious out-
. breaks of the many, which hadthreatened, since the French
oI non ; but his Hon. Friend, who
.was then Secretary
or
ea withthe
Home Department, had succeeded in crushing that out-
k without the right of meeting being invaded, without
50y violation'of the Common law, without the Habeas Corpus
Act having been suspended, without one right of the people
being placed in abeyance. The old constitutional tribunals of
Entiland alone were appealed to, and the Government,
Telt was now accused of weakness—a Government
ieh, on many occasions, could scarcely command
I " majority of two in that House—freed the country
from those evils without suspending or violating the principles
of the Constitution.—(Loud laughter.) He would allude, but
briefly, to one other part of the policy of the Government,
niOlel the administration of Ireland.—( Cheers, ) On that
Siabjejt' he was able to appeal to a distinct vote of the House.
Weak as the Ministry was In that House, if they were able to
administer the foreign policy with honour—if they were able
to put down discontent at home without invading any prin-
ciple of liberty—if they were able to govern Ireland
trnnilniliitYl were they not justified in retaining
'• office, although they were unable to carry every•
measure they proposed? It was his opinion a crisis had
arisen. They were under the necess,ty of providing for a
' deficiency caused not by any act which should deprive
them of the confidence of the House. but caused by an increase
tlf those establishments that was necessary for the honour, the
Iliguity, end the security of the country—caused also by the
remission of a tax which pressed upon the commerce of the
444 k, vry, which chilled the hest affections—a tax the repeal of !
v"WI was called for and supported by all parties, and which
as supported by many Hon. Members opposite. Money was
,Jited in the Exchequer—orders were wanted by our
roanu-
''eturers ; and they were of opinion that both objects might be
attained by a removal of the restrictions which pressed on trade
"I' mitt they supply those defects by relieving the people from
nine of their burdens, or by adding to them, and by providing
. tnaikets tor their industry ? With these views it was that the budget had been resolved upon. He had said in that
ili'luse before, and he repeated it, that he never expected that
Hwhole of these measures would be carried through the
nbut he did say that he anticipated that the sugar and
iner monopolies would be broken up, and that the
ai°,i'n•laws would be placed upon a better footing,
th,, °ugh be did not anticipate a majority for
jee:PrnPovitions. The plan had failed, and although lie
deliberate
to the resolution of the Right Hon. Gentleman, his own
"liberate opinion was (although they might not adhere to
ttierlpart of the plan) that the principle was one by which
At thleneen's Ministers should stand or fall.—(Loud cheers.)
the same time when he considered the deep importance of
to r,leueesti°o ; when he considered the support they expected
tion, :ye from those who were deeply interested in the ques-
be,n hen he considered that the grounds on which they had
li°-,"P°sed had sunk from under the feet of
Opposite—( Cheers, and cries of " Oh, oh")
question of saw with what contempt the attempt to mix up the
Noblel he flumanity with it had been received—( Loud cheers. )
• L
with the Lord the Member for Liverpool was dissatisfied
but woldrunner in which he had referred to his resolution,
societies fEn submit that resolution to the anti-slavery
the prete`'n '-'ngland?—( Hear, and cheers.) Had he not seen
Itene4ed "‘Which it was based. hooted out of Ezetor-hall ?
looked upon sneers.) He believed it was universally
that the 'll one light by all parties in England, and
groes tg re°Ple would uo longer allow the sufferings of the
(Much c tun
e'eerta)_ Pretext for grinding the people of England
and having seen that t down by the
einfleutiernnee of truths nd reaosn, his belief was hat under all the
1:. stances they were bound not to shrink from taking every
Gision vgit triiate
of and constitutional means for obtaining the de-
thin the people generally upon these important ques-
Mitdi solve ar, hear.) It had been said that they should
t'Neh ex • upon 4, question on which there was so
• dinolve ettements On what question then should they
the e 6.7( Hear, hear.) As regarded agitation, he believed
.
Ther Ri7L„een comparatively little on the present question.
from a gratin on. Baronet surely would not prevent the people
gottat ing among themselves the merits of a question which
pre'veenot home to their pockets and interests—he would not surely
time their reading, and writing, and conferring, and peti-
ts lug on the question, and returning snob Members
iwteutld carry out their views Hear, hear, hear.) He
haq deePlY read in the papers of the day, but he declared
lehol d not seen attributed to any person, throughout the
piea,eedcourse of what the Right Honourable Baronet was
an to call agitation, a single word referring to
• Y aPPeai to physical force. As to discussion, they could not
interdict and discourage that without interdicting and discou-
every principle of freedom and discussion. If the people
Itoerhe gprepared to defy corruption and aristocratic influence—
eorruy,,ll)7? they were prepared to resist and overthrow these
ape influences, in that case their task would be an easy
° but if the result were different, the people would have
• ...ot,reason" to find fault with the Government, who had no
" ambition than to maintain fairly, through evil report and
gaeod rsport, those principles which they bad ever advanced and
o
eulZimstered.—( Loud cheers.)
n the motion of Mr. SYDNEY HERBERT, the debate
ST. ALBAN'S ELECTION,
was the, adjourned till to-morrow.
' r,,Mr' WYNN wished to know whether the Hon. Gentle-
-11 who sat on the St. Alban's Election Committee thought
Z0t..0 41114 to the House measures tor the prosecution of the
Perjury which took place on that occasion. olr. MILDM A Y observed, in answer to the question of the
sAo; Gentleman opposite, that the counsel gave up the case
;Zits e it %YU completely gone through ; and in that imperfect
th:i the proceedings, no measure of the nature alluded to
11.,„n5"
e‘non. Gentleman could be fairly brought before the
N.:Mo 1%. WYNN said, when positive attempts were sworn toby
• ftn. witnesses, it was sufficient ground to institute a prosecution
if erjury, and put the matter in a course of investigation; and
_ o oarther Member would do so, he would him elf bring forward
iori for the prosecution the first opportnnityhe could seize
wima'ithuqt interfering in the question before the House.
rt '7" 1 I DNIAY made some observations respecting the evi-
;.,. CO bsfore such Committee, which we did not catch in the
Itter part of his observations. We understood the Hon. Gen-
Np°_,tnit to say, that if the Hon. Gentleman opposite"( Mr.
„,,Ydu ) thought it necessary to proceed with the matter
t...rsiTasideration, he (Mr. Mildmay) would render him all
si4entt4. !we In his power to bring the guilty persons to pu-
Mr• c
• HULLER rose amidst cries of " Order, order,"
Chair, chair," and much confusion. The Hon. Gentleman
,w,ag_p_r_oceeding to say that he never witnessed such a
thing in
House—an Hon. Gentleman to get up on the other side
7.1 o make a one-sided party speech
fkuhair, chair," " Order,
order a."—d (
nClries of " Question,"
1.0 Midst of which, n uch confusion.) In
The SPEAKER said that the Right Hon. '(Gentleman
(t Wyse.) had put a question to a Member of the St. Al-
~n s Election Conow pur
suedmmitte b.
to the course That question had been answered,
.n
.uller) was therefore irregular.y the Hon. Gentleman ( Mr.
Mr, Q, BULLER rose, and seas met by loud cries from
the Oppositlott benches of " Order,
Aorder ; chair, chair,"
length
was i
which lasted for a considerable time.
Sir It. INGLIS rose, and said, At
tt
'louse he never knew any person but one ton;e'esist the dencitshioant
of the Speaker; and he was sorry that allfctnleman whom
he called his friend should be the second.
4,l„'i• had distinctly sta.' ed that there was no question thbeefoSrpeeaktheer
•tt it was out of order that any Gentleman should persist
1,." I>Rleddrasslng the House.
Airs C. BULLER said, if the House would just allow •
--(Cries of " Order, order," from the Opposition behhell
SPEAKER said when he decided that point, and the
the House, acquiesced in that decision, if the Hon. Gentlem lot 0.
bed in the course which was declared to be irregular, itanwa..rin
the highest decree disorderly.
SuAitle,; C. BULLER again arose amid loud cries of "Chair
lengthruer,) from the same quarter. _The confusion was at
put an end to by
Lord JOHN RUSSELL
when moving the Order of the Day,
Mr. C. BULLER lose aid Said that the instant the Speaker