The Sun.
London, England, 1840-02-12 00:00:00

to submit to tint condition. All they w---71s.lier1 wee to be
alone, and they did not wish to interfere with
Ecclesiastical- Sffairs. He bad taken the suggestion
iron an article that recently appeared in the Edin-
Azitgh Review, in the October number. The Hon. Gen-
tleman then read an extract from that periodical, which
suggested that, as a remedy to the existing, evils, ves-
tries should be attended by no persons who were not
members ; that the Established Church should defray
•tsown expenses by means of those of its own comme-
t and that, if Dissenters appeared there, they
should be subject to the tax. Disgraceful scenes had
occurred in vestries. At Margate, in October last,
all the town Lad been thrown into commotion by a
vestry to make a Church-rate. Was this the way in
which the Church should be supported? The Este-
bli3hed Church certainly could not be injured by Dis-
-enters ceasing to contribute to the Church-rates.
The English Church was the richestin the word of
Christian Churches. The consciences of Dissenters
should not be ridiculed on this point. Believing this
measure founded on justice, he now moved for leave to
bring in the Bill.
Mr. GILLON seconded the motion, impelled, he
said, by the horror be felt at the atrocities which had
been practised on this Dissenter for refusing to pay a
small Church-rate, to support a Church but half a de-
gree removed from Popery. —(" Hear," from Mr.
O'Connell.) He trusted that this measure would be
persisted in by his Hon. Friend.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, he thought the case of
John Thorogood hardly merited the characteristics which
had been attributed to it by the Hon. Gentleman.—
(Hear, hear, bear.) It appeared, from the petition of
John Thorogood himself, that having been summoned to
appear before the Ecclesiastical Court, he had refused
to appear. Now, though he (Lord John Russell) might
regret that any person should incur imprisonment
through his objecting .to appear before any Court, still
he could not think that Parliament was bound to pay
attention to such objections, and to admit that every
individual was entitled to say before which Court he
would, or would not, appear, however thct trust might
be established by the law and the Constitution
of the country.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear, hear.")
Whatever might be the grievance of Church-rates or
the general policy of the country respecting them, be did
not think that Parliament could be called on to give
Mr. Thorogood a remedy because he suffered imprison-
ment for thirteen months. The petitioner stated that
he wa3 charged with no moral crime, and that the only
allegation against him was that he did not obey the
summons of the Court ; but he (Lord John Russell)
thought that if the House was prepared to do away with
those Courts, their authority should be maintained, and
their summonses were not to be neglected.—( Hear.)
John Thorogood was as much bound to obey those sum-
monses as any other of her Majesty's subjects.—(Hear.)
No doubt he was impelled by conscientious motives to
arrest the principle of voluntary payments and to oppose
the principle of an Established Church. He stated in
his petition that there ought not to be a State religion,
and that the principle of an Established Church was
unjust and inconsistent with the Scriptures. But so
long as an Established Church was maintained by the
law of the land, that law should be obeyed even it it were
not founded on the b,st principle, and no individual
was at liberty to disobey it. But he (Lord John
Russell) thought that law was fosinded on just, and
wise, and Scriptural principles, and he therefore did
not subscribe to the petitioner's theoretical opinions—
but even if he did he could not admit that any indivi-
dual was at liberty to decide what laws ha should obey
or disobey, without any penalty whatever.—(Hear,
hear.) He (Lord J. Russell) was of opinion that
Church-rates, as they at present existed, were a most
unnecessary and vexatious cause of dissension—
(Cheers)—and to remove that would be a great be-
nefit to the Church and to the religious harmony of the
country. It was with that eiew that he had more than
once assisted in proposing measures to remove the
grievance. One proposal was at once to abolish Church-
rates, and to transfer the burthen to the estates of the
Church—that was objected to on the part of the Dis-
senters, who showed that if the law were passed they
would endeaiour to get rid of it by the same system
which they employed against the existing law—
so that the same contest would be carried on, but
on new grounds. Another proposal had been
introduced by his Noble Friend (Lord Monteagle)
when Chancellor of the Exchequer, who showed that
the Church lands, if properly managed, would be suffi-
cient to defray the expenses to which Church-rates were
applied. But that measure was objected to by the
Church, both in that House and in the country, so
strongly that it mlght have been impossible to carry it
into effect. Those two measures having failed—one of
which he thought most reasonable—the jealousy be-
tween the Church and the Dissenters continued. In-
deed he believed that jealousy was not confined to the
subject of Church-rates, but prevailed to a great ex-
tent on other questions also ; and it•would be difficult

to propose any measure to which the Dissenters would
not object that it was too favourable to the Church, or
the Church say, on the other hand, that too much was
conceded to the Dissenters. He came now to the plan
which had been proposed for the consideration of the
House. The measure of the Hon. Member for Fins-
bury was one by which that portion of the people who
conscientiously differed from the doctrines of the Estab-
lished Church were to be relieved from the payment of
Church-rates. It was proposed that, in order to ascer-
tain who were the individuals to be thus exempted,
from the payment, a declaration of disseut should be
made. He should say that such a measure appeared
to him very unsatisfactory. In the first place the de-
claration in question afforded a temptation to dissent
from the Established Church, by giving a peculiar be-
nefit to those who should have made it. It was, how-
. ever, obvious, that that was a plan which held out a
snare to conscience by holding out certain advantages
to those who should agree to a certain declaration. It
is said that those who arc members of the Established
Church must pay ratesfor the maintenance of the establish-
ments of that Church, but those who did not belong to
it, by making a declaration to that effect, were to be
free from such a payment. This he thought would lead
to evil consequences. There might be a man, for in-
stance, who should be a lukewarm and almost indiffe-
rent member of the Established Church ; and what would
the proposed measure suggest to him ? It would tell
him that Dissenters were exempt from the pyment of
Church-rates, and he had immediately a temptation,
and a bribe as it were, to the amount of the sum for
which he should be liable, to declare himself conscien-
tiously opposed to the rights and doctrines of the
Church.—( Hear, hear, hear, from Mr. Home.)
The Hon- Member for Kilkenny might bring forward
some measure in favour of the petition that had been
prescribed, but he thought that there were many obe
;ections to the course proposed to be adopted. He should
be sorry to see the time when those who professed the
doctrines of the Church were obliged to look to volun-
tary support. He must therefore disagree with the
petition that had been presented, and with the motion
that had been introduced by the Hon. Member. He
was prepared to go as far as any man, but he could not
go to the extent asked for in the petition. As at pre-
sent advised, however, seeing the difficulties that must
arise, all that he (Lord Joi)) wes prepared to do, was
to provide, by some measure, that the remedy for the
nonpayment of Church-rates should not be by a sum-
mons to the Ecclesiastical Courts, but should be
left to the Ciril Court, being wholly a civil de-
mand.—(Hear, hear, hear.) And secondly, that the
penalty for non-payment should not be against the per-
son, but against the goods of the party.—(liear, hear.)
As to the measure proposed by the Hon. Member for
Finsl;ury, he altogether objected to it.
Mr. HUME was sorry to hear the decision of the
Noble Lord. Admitting the cause of the perpetual
dissensions and irritation against the Church, the Noble
Lord yet refused to temove the origin of that cause.
Did the Noble Lord deny that Church-rates were
cruelly unjust ?—',Hear, hear, from Lord John.) Why
then did the Noble Lord concur with Lord Althorp in
bringing forward a Bill to abolish them ? He wished
the Noble Lord to grapple with the principle. Did-
the Noble Lord mean to state
that the Church of
England, when the Church Establishment was formed,
was the same as it is now 9 Didthe
i Noble Lord be-
lieve that the people of England, onehalf of whom were
Dissenters, would permit their
and their persons imprisoned for taxes property
to be seized,
maintain
the
fabric of the Church, so amply and so liberallyo
theendowed
as it was ? John Thorogood might not,in
opinion
of the Noble Lord, be entitled to sympathy,
(Mr. Hume) would tell the Noble Lordlhatt hhee
had the sympathy of millions out of that House.
The Noble Lord was sufficiently acquainted with his-
tory to know that some persons had always set them-
selves up in opposition to had laws, and they had been
martyrs in all causes. What relief did the Noble
Lord propose in these times, when infidel opinions were
likely to overwhelm the religious institutions? Why,
he proposed to change the law by giving power to
adopt a civil process. Did he suppose the people of
England would permit such proceedings to go on
(Hear, hear.) Was Mr. Thorogood the only man
doubting the law, and the institutions? What were
the clergy in Scotland now doing? Why laughing at
the House of Lords, and stating that they looked only
to the Scripture as their guide.—(Hear, beer.) If
the Noble Lord wished to preserve the peace of the
country, let him re-introduce the measure for providing
the support of the Church, out of the rich funds of the