The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-16 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, FEBRUARY l6, 1847

eoLdition, on account of the previous two hard winters ; for
e People, 'accustomed to mild and temperate- seaons, had not
laid up provo:ons in sufficient quantity. Disease and fever then
prevailed, and crime increased so much that they were
2bliged to send three judges on the assises to Munster and
Leinster. One of the judges had died of he gaol fever, and
the Attorney-General, who had voluilteered, for a benevolent
purpose, to go on the siime circuit, had died aho. The same
letter stated that the judges were off.nard daily with the
most miserable spectacles of expiring wretches, and the most
noisome effluvia. The Noble Lord continued to say that much
fiad been referred to the power of law, but he doubted whether
it could ever re-create any near approach to
In Irish Parliament. The rosition in which the
People of England (sere at prevent plat.-d was, that
though straitenedthemselves, they were called upon
for.ty advance of money which it was said would ho repaid
He would not question that the people of Ireland might. really
wish to repay, but what he had doubt of was, whether they
Would ever be able. But he hail another reason for spraking
Is he had done ; he saw that nol withstanding all the clamoured
necessity the Irish gentlemen still contrived to live in luxury
with liveried servants and their French wines ; and one thing
120 would put to them was, how was it they did not pay so
ninny
fixes as the English people? They were at least free
from those which pressed heavily on this country. There was
the income-tax, which was very heavy in its operations, though
not quite so heavy as it once was ; there were the seas-taxes,
and, he believed, the land-taxes, which they were Lot subject
to. (Lord Landowne—They pay quit rents.) Well, at least they
were free from the payment of the income and cess-taxes, amount-
ing;o four millions and a half, which this e. wary had to pay.
land in Ireland did not maintain its own poor, as it did in
England.
Nevertheless he admitted that something must be
, done to prevent the painful state of distress in the west of Ire-
land, for they had heard that 27,000 had come over to Liver-
Pool in one month. It was quite a mistake to say that persons
Who came over at the rate of nine hundred a day wore emi-
grants, intending to make their way to other parts of the
world. They were professional beggars, who came there to
obtain food, and to stay until they were removed. He was told
that persons in Ireland who occupied an inferior pchition in life
tept servants and carriages, which a similar class in this country
Would not dream of doing ; they were parties who were fit to
pay a higher tax than they did. There were very few mort-
gages in France ; but in Ireland, reckoning the value of the
rent of the land st 14,000,000/. a year, 5,000,000/. or
6'000,000/. went to the mortgagee annually. This was a
great exascerbation of the evil under which they laboured, for
the mortgagee did not care for the famine or failure of the
Potato crop.—( Hear, hear.) He was sorry to have felt it his
duty to utter these unpalatable truths ; but he was not in the
position of an individual who was bestowing his own charity—
k.e was a law-giver and a law-maker; he was not giving away
Own money, but the money of the public, one of whose
trustees he was. The money was for the relief of the em-
ployer as well as the employed, and would in his opinion be
19jurious in the end to both.
Lord LUCAN wished to ask the Noble and Learned Lind
from whom he derived his information that as many as 4,000
ejectments had been made in a short time in one part of
Ireland ?

and forced upon Ireland measures of perin.inent relief and pro-
vision for th people—which would increase the evil—would
be aoverse to the opinion, end condemned by the judgment of
the educated and intellectual classes of Ireland, and on whom
the burden of taxation was about to tall. Nothing could be
more fatal than the passing by a British Parliament of a mea-
sure of poor-law relief condemned by the principal representa-
tives of the country. He trusted, although the question was
not then before their Lordships, he might be permitted, in no
spirit of hostility, but ro.ther with the view of making some
suggestion, as he thought there were suggestions to be made
on points which should be regarded with the gravest con-
sideration—he would suggest to their Lordships on three or
four provisions much which ought to be borne in mind, and
which it appeared to him was not borne in mind in providing
a permanent poor-law for Ireland. They were about to frame
a poor-law for that country. They were about for the first
time to confer an absolute right of relief unless some alteration
had been mad- in the first clause of the Bill as it was
no v submitted to Parliament. By the Bill as it stood at pre-
sent, boards of guardians of the different unions of Ireland
were not only authorised and empowered, but authorised and
required to make some provision for all persons permanently
disabled, infirm, and so forth, either within or without the
workhouse, as it might seem to them fit. The present law gave
to the board of guardians permission to relieve but in the
workhouse only. The Bill they were about to introduce re.
quired the guardians to relieve either within or without the
workhouse. He thought he was not wrong in what he said
with regard to the aged, to the permanently disabled, the
aged and infirm. They ought to confer the right of relief on •
them, but they ought not at present to go further. He believed
on his part, that although many heavy burdens were borne by
the resources of Ireland, the provision was not a judicious one.
They were, however, going further, for it appeared that a pro- •
vision was to be made for the able bodied, either within
or in certain cases without the doors of the workhouse.
They were authorising the Poor-law Commissioners
to require the board of guardians in certain cases
to provide for the able-bodied out of the workhouse. The
provision might be a neces:ary one, but it was one from which
he completely dissented. It might be one for which there was
the greatest possible occasion, but it was a power which had a
tendency more than any other to extend and increase indefinitely
not only the pressure of the poor-rate itself, but also had a ten-
dency to create a desire in the minds of the Irish people to
desert their labeur.—(Hear, hear. The point to which he
wished to call their Lordships' attention was this, they were
about to lay every burden upon the land of Ireland—they were
about to require the land of Ireland to support the great body
of destitute persons. It was not unworthy of their Lordships'
consideration, and he trusted that it might not be lost sight of
by the Government, whether this provision under which a
limited amount of relief was now granted, and which might
have been found wise and effective enough with regard to the
present constitution of boards of guardians, might be found
equally wise and safe when they came to grant a more ex-
tended and a greater measure ; and he was sure that they
would find and impose on Ireland the full amount of burden
which England was called upon to bear, and they were bound
in fairness and candour to see that the property affected by
the measure was justly applied, and to grant a protection to it
at least equal to the protection granted in England. There
were two other points. He was not about to discuss them
then, but he trusted that he was not improperly occupying
their Lordships' time by making some suggestions.—( Hear,
hear.) The condition of things, with regard to the poor-taw
in England and Ireland, was different, because society in Ire-
land was very much divided into very high and very low, and
that fact formed a most important consideration. With refer-
ence to the formation of boards of guardians, the boards of
guardians in England, the middling farmers were almost gene-
rally the persons called upon to officiate, but that was the very
class which was most deficient in Ireland, and from which it
would be impassible to form boards of guardians. The tenure
of the power devolved in Ireland in a great measure on very
much lower and poorer classes than it did in England on
classes little above the labourers themselves. It might be
well for their Lordships to consider that, if this were the case,
there should be interposed between the guardians of that class
of persons and property some security that it shosed not be
wasted, and that there should not be less security in Ireland
between the guardians and property than could be obtained
in England from the present system, and yet the law as it now
stood limited the amount of er officio guardians to the number
ordinarily allowed in England. Those upon whom the pres-
sure of the Irish poor.law would fall in the first instance would
be the landlord rather than the occupier. It might be said
that the landlord was the proper person to bear it, and was the
person upon whom the pressure ought to be made to fall ; and
therefore it would be better, when they were about to make a
provision for out-door relief, to provide able-bodied per sons
from the funds of the parish, that those persons on whose pro-
perty the taxation would fall should have a preponderating
voice in the framing of that taxation ; and if they should have
the board constituted of small farmers, paying one-third of the
amount of taxation, while two-thirds fell upon the landlords,
i.e was afraid that in many cases there would be a great temp-
tation to an improper extension of the rate, and the misz,
management would be greater as the amount of parochial rates
levied upon themselves became smaller. The great object they
had in view was to raise this class of farmers to be themselves
employers of labour. They ought to compel them to
employ labour ; for to tell him that the landlord
could supply labour to the extent required was
to tell him that his property would be confiscated, and therefore
employment should be provided by the farmer. If they
relieved the farmer from this obligation they would induce
them to throw their labourers out of work, and trust to the
chance of obtaining labour at a cheaper rate out of those sup-
ported by the poor-sates. Ne measure could be more indis-
pensable than this, for where the rates fell directly on the far-
mer himself, the pressure was the most wholesome and only
safe mode to prevent the improvident expenditure which a
different system of poor-laws would introduce into Ireland.
Whatever might he said against the Irish landlord, he (Lord
Stanley) was satisfied that there was more justice and more
good sense in England than to make a provision by which, he
believed, that the farmer could impose duties and burdens
which could not be borne by the landlords of England ; and
to say that they should have no voice in the assessing of rates ;
that they should have them assessed on those who were the
persons to pay by small farmers, who were altogether exempt
from payments—who had not the means of employing labour—
who had not the inducement to employ labour, but who voted
for the relief of persons from burdened estates, which would
be in a great measure confiscated by him. He (Lord Stanley)
was satisfied that in England, where this class of farmers were
more respectable in point of property—he did not say of cha-
racter—that if they had the control, and only one-third of the
payment fell upon them, much dissatisfaction would be caused.
There were two other points, which, as he was en his legs, he
would venture to suggest to the consideration of her Majesty's
Government, and there was one which he considered as all
important, if they meant really to put a check upon profligate
expenditure, and that was the question as to whether the rates
should be levied upon the townlands or the electoral districts.
He knew that proposals had been made to throw the burden of
taxation on the townlands. He considered that impracticable,
because they were too small, some of them coming as low as
forty or fifty acres, and an assessment on se small a scale was
impossible. On the other hand, he was rather inclined to
think that the electoral division, as they were at present con.
stituted, did not err on the side of being too small; they were
too large to give scope, or sufficient scope, to individual
responsibility for the management of property—rather for the
prevention than the payment of rates. He was sure that if they
still further taxed the liability of proprietors, and from the
electoral divisions threw the burden of taxation upon the unions
of Ireland, instead of the electoral divisions, from that moment
there was an end to all inducement to the lauded proprietors to
take the smallest part or interest in the management of their
own property. He felt in some degree interested on this ques-
tion. Their Lordships must make all due allowance for that
matter in the weight they attached to his observations: but
when he said that he was an Irish proprietor, he said that it
was contingent upon the decision come to upon this matter
whether he should or should not continue so. He had one
mere point to which, if they would forgive him, he would
urge upon the consideration of the House, and he thought it
was one of sufficient importance to be introduced at this early
period, although it would be discussed when they came to con-
sider the provisions of the more permanent measure. It was
this—a declaration—a legislative declaration—which in Eng-
land would appear to be uncalled for, because he believed that
the public sense of every board of guardians would have carried
it into effect. Under the provision made it was stated that
no man could be allowed to be destitute or entitled to relief
when, at the time, he was the occupier, or in possession of
land. He did not mean, when he said land. sufficient for a
garden, about a quay ter or halt of an acre ; but when he made
the following observation, he should have the concurrence of
nine out of ten men acquainted with Ireland. It would be the
ruin of the country if they at mice sanctioned the union in one
person, the two characters of pauper and land occupier. There
were a great massy small occupiers in Ireland, who were quite
in as much distress as other classes, and the board of guardians
would say that he should have relief, so that hail of the year
he woul l be a land occupier and the either half a pauper, de-
teriorating in value the parish from wh.ch be derived his relief.
Unless ail these corniderationa were taken into consideration,
no measure could be introduced at all calculated to reduce the
distress of the country, without leaving behind it evils cone
than those it was intended to cure.—( Hear, hear.)
The Earl of NIOUNTCASHEL complained that the effect
of this measure would be to impose a burden on certain of the
classes in Ireland which they were altogether unable to bear.
The number of rate-payers who would be registered amounted
to 195,017, but out of this number not more than 50 or 51
would be able to pay. The Noble and Learned Lord ( Lord
Brougham), whom he did not then see in his place (Lord
Brougham here returned to his seat)—th, the Noble Lord
was present—the Noble and Learned Lord, in his tirade
themotmhf lan i spahwa epyi dtei
hnrt hai
portion
patch
atottheir
eht numberhroef
ploro ft ahtgo
labourersfr
ai
ground.
eru eut
run:
d•a h.
inl
had
a eb
eo
vu
er
re r
bs
e.
against the Irish people, said that labour on the reads had di-
t
g
enTithiethfeachtawbaits
Thmeoynceoyuld ntohwey pay the
labourers with neither, and, therefore, they were compelled to
resort to the roads. The Noble and Learned Lord had re-
marked that the Irish poor were not ashamed to beg, and,
therefore, they cared not to be employed. He (Lord Mount-
cashel) would instance the case of the Irish labourer in Eng-
land and in London. When in this country they were employed
in English labour, and paid with English money, they wereas
anxious as the labourers of any country to be at work. He
only wished that the Noble Lord resided in Ireland—(Great
laughter, much increased by Lord Brougham's gesture of
feigned dismay)—he would then have been better able to de-
scribe the feelings and habits of the Irish people.
Earl FITZWILLIAM said that it was not for the purpose
of adding anything to what had fallen from the Noble Lord op-
posite (Lord Stanley) that he rose at that time to address a
few observations to the House. He thought that every one
would agree with him that thee ought to be grateful to the
his
Lord, aneddipiatonewsso•erares principally for the purpose of recording
references
no(
fEiswtatarhecleaqFstu:i
atehznsevrtcgdoehiulntiaaehicdraemmibn;
measure
eh viewsne t
T e t advanced b
beforey the
th er Noble
Lordships,
Lord
ht he
to be provisions introduced wis ed to say one word in exemplification
yestatedinwtiht
personsregard electedto the rteol ifeofr
mcotmh -0
board of
sittings of the relief He was of opinion that there ought
came forward for relief
powers. When he was in Ireland last, he attended the
in the measure, limiting these
committee, and the first person who
almost generally
40 acres of land. He was a man in possession of some 39 or
ing appeal being made by tohe
ray, that they must do the committee the justice to
acquiesced in the propriety of
relief; and that. was after a touch-
was in as great distress as priest, who stated that the man
not admitting that person t
He (Earl Fitzwilliam) had any
person who could apply to them.
doubt of the truth of that state-
ment. He was grateful to the oble Lord for the explanation
he had given, and his only
object in rising was, that no doubt
might exist as to his opinion oni' 'this subject.
with Noble Friend who
Lord 'NTEAGLE wished,
to the Noble Lord
had his
pursmds.
well as Meralsers of
elipasil,o liatset f
.sreo
ttn,cetaorsreetuhren
the
t almperial
t I
p: Irish proprietors,dlie
r ready
It was most im-
passe. fully wished
per-
sonal sacrifices, and any pressure to vih,cnytio fl'ake,thnY pe'
sub-
jected, if such sacrifice- or the endurance or
be found benetienel to Ireland. .rut he ti: could
draw his Noble Friend's attention to one or two point„;,,,""
present Bill. The first ~f these did not so 11001-1 arise .o.:1;"e of
the Bill itself, as out of the constitution of the bo of com-
missioners in whom these extraordinary powers were to ho
vested. That board was constituted of five members namely,
Sir Johu Burgoyne, Mr. Twisli ton, the head of the board
of works, the pea of the constabulary, and the
heat elf the corn • 141 f sat. N iw. t,. any on,. acquainted
with Ireland, or who had tia-sed a half-hour in
the office of e tiler of these official departments,
it Aid louletling amounting to a farce to think that these

Lord BROUGHAM said the statement was made by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer in the course of his address to
the House of Commons on Friday last, and that it was not
gainsaid by any one who heard it.;
Lord LUC.LN said it was stated at the last sessicras at Balli.
nar 6,000 processes were issued ; uow he was correct
in saying that 400 had lot been issued, and they were
issued at the instance of middlemen for consere, because no
ejectment could be made on such a process. When the Noble
Lord talked about wishing to discuss the question with great
feeling, he could not help thinking that the speech which the
Noble and Learned Lord had just delivered was more acri-
monious than any speech lie had ever heard. He did not
believe one word of the statement with respect to the eject-
ment'.
Lord BROUGHAM said it was stated that out of 6,200
eases 4,000 were processes, with this addition, that this
accounted for the immense number which had emigrated to
Liverpool. He naturally thought they were ejectments and
rant mere processes; for what could induce persons to come
ever in such large numbers, except that they had been ejected
born their holdings ?
The Marquis of WESTNIEATII explained that the pro-
cesses were simply for debt, and not for ejectment.
Lord STANLEY did not wish to offer any factious oppo-
sition to the passing of the measure, but was content to take
it as a temporary measure—as one, however, which in his esti-
mation violated all the principles of political economy, and all
the rules of common sense. It was a Bill which, if it had
been submitted to him except for the purpose of meeting a
ternporary calamity, and one which they all thought would
lead to the preservation of large masses of the population on
the point of perishing from famine, would hive encountered
his determined opposition ; and he was satisfied that sn far
from receiving the unanimous sanction of that or the other
House of Parliament, it would have been found
exceedingly difficult to have found any Member
In either House to take the responsibility of introducing it.—
( Hear, hear.) He wished in the first instance to address
himself to some of the provisions of the B 11, for the purpose
of showing their Lordships, more especially after the sech
which had been delivered by his Noble and Learned Frienpd,e in
Which he thought he threw too severe a censure on the conduct
'3f Irish landlords, the almost irresponsible power which it
Would place in the hands of the Government and of the local
committeese till applied under the Act. He wished their
Lordships and the country to understand, and to have placed
before them the way in which Irish landlords had voluntarily
consented to be taxed for the relief of the indigent in their
Own neighbourhoods, and how they had consented to hive that
relief dispensed. He did not think there was an instance in
which so much power was sought to be placed in the hands of
'MY Government as was sought by this Bill. There was the
Parer of local taxation to an almost unlimited amount, and ef
'suing money frog the Treasury without the control of the
Executive government of the country. It appeared that the
Lord-Lieutenant was author iced to appoint a certain number
Lot. persons to act in the capacity of relief commissioners, who
°id unlimited power of appointing as many officers, and with
as large salaries as might be required by the exigencies of the
Thatea in anyse:First of all, the Lord-Lieutenant was to issue orders,
electoral district, or any division of it, which he
might think fit to constitute, a committee should be constituted
as a relief committee, which, with the exception that the resi-
dent justices within that district, and the elected guardians,
must be guardians of it, was to be constituted by the sole will
1114 pleasure of the Lord-Lieutenant. The inspector was aloe
to be a member of it. This power of the Lord-Lieutenant
fright lead to the exclusion of the landed proprietors
ef the district. Alere committees had to frame lists
containing the names of those whom they considered fit
recipients of relief, with unlimited poser to select these in-
dividuals, and with unlimited power as to the number who were
to be placed on the lists, and receive relief; and this committee,
so constituted, was authorised to expend certain sums of
money which they and the Lord-Lieutenant might think fit for
the relief of those individuals. It might be said that there was
a cheek put upon any undue expenditure by the finance com-
mittee. It was a check, but the check was only upon the local
authorities, and not upon the Government. It was true the
Lord-Lieutenant had the power of altering or amending the
expenditure of those committees ; but he might amend the
expenditure by increasing it—at least there was nothing in the
Act to prevent him from leing so. The expenditure was,
therefore, at the option of the three or four persons who con-
stituted the committee, one of whom was the Government
inspector, and who were appointed at the will and pleasure of
the Lord-Lieutenant, to incur what expenses they thought
proper—there was no restriction. It was just possible
that they might consist of parties who were not
responsible for one farthing of the expenditure they
incurred ; and let it be borne in mind—let it be
in the recollection of their Lordships, that the measure had r e
ceived the consent of the Irish Members of Parliament, andof.
Irish Peers in that House, so deep was their sense of the pre-
sent calamity, so anxious was their desire to do all in their
power to meet an appalling emergency. lie did not say that
their conduct was reckless ; but he said Po simply to show the
great lengths they were prepared to go rather than allow the people
to die from famine. It showed that Irish proprietors were dis-
posed to entrust unlimited power of taxing the whole
property they possessed in the hands of those corn-
mittees.—(Hear, hear.) He would say that they had con-
sented to place their whole property in the hands of an irre-
sponsible tribunal. The way in which, without distinction of
party or political feeling, they had rendered the control of
their whole property, or rather the taxation of their whole
property, into the hands of the Government, and of the Lord-
Lieutenant, not only for the relief of thceet on their own pro-
perty, but those in their immediate neighbourhood showed
that at that moment the Irish laudowner did not deserve to
have imputed to him that he was indifferent to the sufferings
Of the people, and that they were unwilling to take upon their
Own shoulders the burden of supporting the people.— ( Hear,
hear.) Then with regard to the British people, this Bill gave,
for the first time, most extraordinary powers, because power
was granted to the Executive to dispose of British money for
the relief of distress in Ireland. ( Her, hear.) It
was true the Bill stated that the loans for this pur-
pose should be limited to 300,000/. ; but unless he
misunderstood the Bill, it gave, over and above, powers, with
regard to which no limit was plact d, as it gave the Commis-
sioners of the Treasury power to make giants of whatever sum
they might think proper in aid of the subscription raised in
various parts of Ireland in aid of alleviating the prevailing dis-
tress.

The Marquis of L A N SDOWN E— Sums voted for that pur-
ose—sums granted from time to time for that purpose by
arliament.
Lord STANLEY admitted that so far he was in error ; but
of the definite sums they had no means of judging. The
as he had said, was no doubt of a most
exceptional character, and violated every principle of political
economy. It might leave, as his Learned Friend had said, be-
hind it some evil, thou-ill it might do some immediate good.
• It would lead the People to an habitual dependence upon the
people of this country for support when their country was
afflicted by any similar calamity. Were their Lordships pre-
pared to overlook them ? The other House had overlooked
them before the prominent consideration that the people of
Ireland should not be allowed to starve. There were no other
considerations which could have justified the introduction of
the Bill. The powers granted by it with regard to many
public measures were almost unlimited, and with regard to the
local taxation of Ireland absolutely unlimited. It was to the
credit of the Irish proprietors of land, that not one word of
complaint had been offered as to the extent in which the whole
property was to be encumbered by taxation by irresponsible
authorities. That was one of the provisions of this Bill, and
which, perhaps, he should say, was snore objectionable than
any of the others. It was a greater power than was ever before
vested in any irresponsible body—that not oily they should fix
the amount of taxation for particular districts, but that they
should declare, according to their will and pleasure, who were
the persons who were to be called upon to pay it. That pro-
vision, strong as it was, was, in his opinion, infinitely less
objectionable and dangerous than the one which was to be
given to the Lord• Lieutenant of Ireland,
shouidl3a
wl; h
fir r A.
who not only laynt
do
have the power of saying that
/3 for B's poor, or A and B together should pay for their poor,
but the power of saying that A, B, and C, being together,
ct
inhabitancyoccu ed,
oafn da should pay conjointly for the district
for which C might not be responsible
edid not
was
it
single poor person. The power was unlimited.exercisd,
He
but
doubt that it would be wisely and properlyle
e' He was not
.
an enormous power to vest in any single
going,_ as he said before, objectionabsler- that t
a st person
e r.on
tillrw esal,os,ntsoibsiuligty-
gest any alteration ; he would rather
Ras left with her Majesty's Government,thoran that
alter
any attempt should be made to
ma-
terially amend the Bill. He would rather it
should at once be passed. This was a great na tonal emer-
gency, and these powers the Government deemed :nd, to bispense-
able. They asked for their confidence, and it cugh
given to them to the fullest and most unlimited exterlt ; rnd,
although he was conscious that there were some provisions
of this Bill which ought to be amended, yet, under these pe-
culiar circumstance., and the measure being a temporary one,
it would be better that the Bill should pass as proposed by
the Government, than that their Lordships should attempt to
amend that which in all its provisions was so exceptional,
that it would be difficult to interfere with it. That for which
he•' ruse principally was to express his earnest hope that on
this proposition—considering the readiness which the Irish
!lernbers and proprietors in the other House of Parliament
LEI
f shown to met the views of Government, in legislating
or
an immediate remedy for a temporary but most formidable
tmergency, the Gnverrn..nt w. uld be cautious how they ap-
roadie(' tho sehj,sis of a mor.• lif•r•ri en' rely f. ll"ar,
fe".) The evil which might be done h, improvident legis-
tiltl
ation for the next eight months might be inconsiderable, but
evil whie4 it would do if they introduced

gentlemen, having superadded to their present the additional
duties of this Bill, could undertake the business which would
hi imposed upon them. The late Mr. Drummond, than whom
no man was more able to cope with the work of the country—
if they were to tell the late Mr. Drummond that he was to
undertake the whole of the administration of the poor-
law in Ireland, to administer to twenty-two thousand and
twenty electoral divisions, he ( Lord Monteagle) would be bound
ttaokseaythtihsadtuAtlyr..,,DTruhenini,naosndre‘isp•
of It
hwei ll
constabularynot. und e r-
for Ireland, why the House admitted last session that the con-
stabulary was in itself a great organised army, and could they
believe that the bead of this great force could attend to the
duty they were casting upon him? A better selection than Sir
m
John Burgoyne could not be made, or better fitted to inspire
confidence in the Irish people with respect to the future
administration of this law. But with the exception of Sir
John Burgoyne and Sir Randolph Routh they had no man on
whom they could depend for the well working of this Bill. He
wished also In refer to a matter connected with the constitu-
tion of the Bill. The letter of Sir George Grey and the Act
itself admitted the fact of large contributions being expected
in aid of the funds, and the privilege of such contributors no-
minating certain persons to the attention of the relief com-
mittee. It was true that by the admission of this patronage
they might calculate nn the assistance of some who would have
otherwise remained neuter, but still it was reasonable that the
persons who contributed somewhat liberally should have in some
degree the power of distributing the funds they had created. There
had been much discussion in Ireland on this point, and the
general opinion was that the subscribers of twenty guineas
and upwards should become cx-qfficio members of the fund
committees. With reference to the principle of enforcing
a rate with the wants of each electoral division, he thought
that such a principle was calculated to throw Ireland into
a state of irretrievable confusion; they would require to issue
warrant upon warrant, and thus they would be adding
difficulties to what was in the first instance far more easy.
A Noble Lord had drawn a contrast between the people of
Ireland and of Scotland. He described the latter as a proud
and independent people, who would rather die than submit to
beg. He recognised in that speech the characteristic of the
country. He (Lord Monteagle) would at once admit the
superiority of the Scottish people, but he would ask, what
had been the effect of out-doer relief on proud and inde-
pendent Scotland, where the people were so independent that
they would rather die than beg for food ? They had the re-
sults before them. The House would remember that, ac-
cording to the hypothesis of the Niisle Lord, they were an
inferior race on whom they were to try this new experiment,
and, therefore, if with a country like Scotland the measure had
failed, what security had they for calculating on Ireland ?
He was about to read from the report of the Poor-law Com-
missioners, and there, in a letter from a mutual friend of his
own and the Noble Lord's, he meant Sir George Sinclair, that
gentlemen stated, as the result of the first year's experience of
the poor-law in Caithness, that the rate exceeded 800/. per
annum, and that incendiaries were busily at work, inciting the
paupers net to take sixpence per day for their labour, which
was a larger amount than they had ever before earned, and he
concluded that, in a few years, unless some plan were adopted
to prevent the spread of the evil, the greater part of the landed
rental would be absorbed for the mere maintenance of the
paupers in the district. Here were the Scottish peasantry so
proud, so independent, so unwilling to beg from individuals,
reduced to beg from the public. He (Lord Monteagle)
would throw no impediment in the way of this Bill; but
he hoped the measure would not be pressed until
_their
Lordships had well considered its provisions.
wy
froi
hgu
onh
dt:totoiuolandcoblafeimainshdoaufmstoeruydt
it nod wt
beghr e
Lord BROUGHAM was apprehensive lest, by giving a
relief,
we oo
would
nd t r
noti
yt w
bob e ue
aad
us
hs d
eae
ms
manyter
do y t
ot
ph
gee
or vs
aoe
nnr
dys
claim relief at their parish.
Lord CAMPBELL would not institute a comparison be-
tween the poor of any country ; he thought that, all over the
world, people would rather be idle than work. The offer of
gratuitous relief was, he believed, universally demoralising. He
hoped, however, that the results of passing this measure would
not be so dangeroua as the Noble Lora (Lord Monteagle) had
supposed. He did not think that the applications to the poor-
law guardians would be so frequent as seemed to haunt the
imagination of his Noble Friend.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, in reply, said that he
begged their Lcrdships to remember that when he introduced
this measure, he stated, in the strongest terms, that he con-
ceived the measure to be objectionable—as a permanent mea-
sure, utterly objectionable. Principles like those contained in
the Bill often crept into the Government without its
being at first aware of the evil. The measure was
called for only for a short time, and under the most distressing
circumstances, such as he was not prepared to contemplate
without making some effort to relieve. He was quite prepared
•0 admit that many abuses had arisen under the late Poor Re-
lief Act. but he believed, that if that measure had not been
passed by the Legisliture, there would have been, by this
time, at least half a million of persons who would
have perished for want, and of whose existence
their Lordships, the other House, and the Govern-
ment, would have been accountable. It could not
be denied that a considerable amount of good had been effected
under that measure ; those works which bad been considered
as useless and unpredictive were only exceptional cases, and
not the rule. He quite concurred in many of the observations
which fell from the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley). He
thought, however, that questions referring to the better secu-
rity of property, and the improved constitution of the
boards of union guardians would require the most serious
consideration of their Lordships previous to the introduction of
a poor-law for Ireland. He thought also that it would be a
great benefit to reduce the number of small tenements, and he
should be happy if, by the passing of a measure to that effect,
the tenants were driven from their small and precarious hold-
ings to a more certain and safer mode of obtaining their exist-
ence. He thought that under all the circumstances of the case
the present Bill was the best that could be introduced, and he
hoped that their Lordships would not refuse their sanction to
the second reading of the Bill.
The Bill was then read a second time.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

papers o:is day, it appeared that the Lord-Lieu-
tenant had dismissed twelve magistrates for being
guardians of this union. He asked if the re-
port was correct, and also what steps had been taken
to supply the places of the dismissed guardians,
and whether any instructions had been given to recover
the 1,0791. of poor-rates due as arrears.
Sir G. GREY said it was quite true the guardians of
the union ha I been dismissed, but it was not by the Go
yernment or the Lord-Lieutenant, but by the Poor-law
Commissioners, in whose hands the power rested. The
step taken would require, according to law, that a fresh
election of guardians should immediately take place, and
if those do not discharge their duty, then the Poor-law
Commissioners would appoint paid guardians. Tie had
not received notice of the question, or else he would
have brought the letter of the Poor-law Commissioners
with him ; but that, with the other papers respecting
the Castlebar union, would be placed on the table of the
House in a kw days.
Mr. P. SCROPE wished to know if it was the inten-
tion of the Government to prosecute the guardians for
their heinous neglect of the poor? They had refused out-
door relief under the most distressing circumstances,
and a hundred persons had died in the workhouse, on
which inquests had been held.
Sir GEORGE GREY replied that he was in posses-
sion of no information at present as to what course would
be taken.

Mr. SCROPE said that perhaps the Attorney• Gen-
eral would answer the question.
Mr. F. FRENCH said, the Hon. Member (Mr. P.
Scrope) should have given notice of his question, and
the Irish Members would have been prepared to answer it.
THE WELLINGTON STATUE.
Mr. CRAVEN BERKELEY wished to ask the Noble
Lord, the head of the Commissioners of Woods and
Forests, whether any application had been made by the
committee of the Wellington statue to remove the scaf-
folding around it, and at whose expense the same was
to be effected ?

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 15.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
WOLVERHAMPTON RATES BILL.
On the motion of Mr. BROTHERTON, this Bill was
read a second time.
WOLVERHAMPTON GAS BILL.
On the motion of the same HON. MEMBER, this Bill
was also read a second time.
SHEFFIELD MARKETS BILL.

On the motion of an Hox. MEMBER, this Bill wars
read a second time.

LEITH HARBOUR DOCKS DUES.
This Bill was also read a second time.
SHEFFIELD CANAL BILL.

Mr. PARKER moved the second reading of this Bill.
Lord MORPETH was of opinion that this Bill should
not be proceeded with any further. In the year 1815
the Sheffield Canal Company purchased the lands and
tenements of the river Dunn navigation, subject to the
expense of repairing the roads in the district. I❑
the year 1836 a similar Bill to the present was
introduced, which was negatived, on a division on
the second reading, by a majority of 36. The
Bill was afterwards thrown out in another session
by the recommendation of a Committee• appointed to
inquire into the subject. He thought it. was hard that
the townships should be called upon periodically to
oppose this Bill. He would, therefore, request the
House not to allow the Bill to pass t►_tro ugh any further
stage.
Mr. PARKER said that clauses mig.ht be introduced
in Committee on the Bill for the protect ion of the town-
,hips referred to by the Noble Lord.
Mr. B. DENISON said that there .was a strong case
for refusing to read the Bill a second time. A railway
company had now purchased the canal company, with
all its responsibilities, and they now sought for a Com.
move, in order to throw off themselves the obligations
they had entered into with their eyes open.
Mr. BROTIIERTON thought there wex•e ample
grounds for this Bill K ink into Committee.

Cal tain E ;ERTON said that he had been very
strongly canvassed to come down to the House to support
the second reading of the Bill, and a statement had been
put into his hand, a peru,al of which had indueed him
to come down and resolutely to oppose the further pro-
gress of this 13il!.

Mr. S. WM?, I'LEY said, that in consequence cif the
Learned Counsel who had cluirge of the interests ,o,f the
promoters of the Bill, nut having been able to attend
.our, the Con mitt.' anl the conduct of the case being
eft to a junior, it was no wonder that the Conan tittee
not 13;-: able to understand the nature of the Bill,
aed that it was summarily dismissed He hoped that
the House would allow the Bill to be read a second time.

Mr. sTiturr thought that the Bill ought to 13,1 al-
lowed to be read a second time, on the ground that the
till did not receive a full &IA perfect hearing before
the Committee upon the occasion when it was refer Ted
to them.

Mr. STANSFIELD opposed the further progrel ;5 of
the Mil.

Mr. WARD hoped that, after the speech of his Rig ht
Hon Fiend (Mr. Strutt), they would allow the Bill
be read a second time. The points under dhcust;iwo
might be considered in Committee.

E. I)ENISON thought that this would be a most
unusual step. He would oppose the further progress of
:he Bill.

Lord MORPETH—Directions had been given to the
sculptor to remove the remaining portion of the scaffold-
ing, which prevents the view on the north side, as they
conceived a sufficient view was not obtained at present.
—(Laughter.) Certainly they (the Government) thought
a sufficient view had already been obtained. The
question was before the sub-committee and the sculptor.
The sub-committee had stated, that after removing a
portion of the sciffolding, if it should be opposed to the
views of the Government to have the statue remain,
they would remove it. The Government was of opinion
that the northern side of Waterloo-place would be
the best site.

Mr. MACKINNON would ask the Noble Lord
(Morpeth) if he was aware that it was considered an
indignity to remove statues during the lifetime of those
whom they were intended to honour? Was th•
Noble Lord aware that in Pompeii some statues were
placed upon arches, and in almost exactly the same poei-
don as that of the Wellington statue?—(l aftghter.)
Lord MORPETH—With respect to what the lion.
Gentleman stated, it could not be supposed in the
present state of public opinion to remove the statue, and
with respect to Pompeii, it could not be supposed that art
was in the most perfect state in the days of Pompeii—
(Hear, hear)—and it should be recollected that at that
time there were more violent methods of displacement.
FACTORY BILL.
Sir W. JAMES wished to know whether it was
sin-
tended to make any change with respect to the educa-
tion of factory children, and to employ the female chid
d craernce in l •
'riet-w
was
orks?
Sire e
e G.
to the GREY,
first whopo
point, spoke
,the understood to say that, with re-
fnchildrenotfeeeesto b
in
e
scarcely audible,
so low a
in
education
print-works, it was unanimously recommended that
such education should be afforded. With regard
to the second question, the subject was under con-
sideration, and a Bill would be brought in upon the
subject. With regard to the third point, he was not
prepared, in the absence of further information, to give
a decided answer.
Mr. BRIGHT understood that there was a clause in•
troduced in the Bill which the House had under consi-
deration that fully met the object of the Hon. Member's
second question.
Sir G. GREY said there was a general report of the
factory inspectors, recommending that certain portions
of machinery should be cased in to prevent accidents.
That recommendation was under consideration.
THE POOR IN IRELAND.
Lord GEO. 13ENTINCK wished to ask some ques-
tions of the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer
with reference to the Board of Works in Ireland, and
the employment of destitute persons in that country.
The first question which he wished to ask was—
What was the average weekly amount paid to each
officer of the Irish public works, the number of
whom were 11,587; what wars the highest and lowest
rates of wages paid to the officers of those works; what
was the gross amount of maintenance connected with
the Board of Works during the month of
January last; the gross extra expenditure con-
nected with these works as regarded clerks, etc.'
the gross cost of maintaining the destitute poor since
January; the quantity of corn bought by Government
for that purpose and the quantity in bond; and, lastly,
what was the ratio of the expenditure of the staff as at
present existing in proportion to the persons employed ?
Sir GEORGE GREY was unable to give the answer
to the first question of his Noble Friend in detail as
respected the poor in Ireland. The first question put, as
to the weekly amount of the money expended for the
relief of the destitute poor in Ireland—the answer to
that question was, according to the returns, 88,5871. The
next question, as to the number of the persons employed on
those works otherwise than labourers—according to
the returns of the officials employed on these works,
it was 486, and the number of persons employed as
labourers on those works was 10,897. The daily pay
of those persons is 2,7741. The Noble Lord then asks
the amount of the weekly pay of those parsons, and
if he would multiply this amount by six he
would find what the aggregate amount was. if
the Noble Lord would turn to the same blue
book, page 19, he would find that the highest
pay of the engineer was 30s. a day, with 10s. for travel-
ling expenses, with an addition of 10s. per day when
they were out. The lowest pay was for the surveyor of
the works, which was 2s. per day. The Noble Lord
then asks, what is the actual cost of theses orks, and
the maintenance of those who were engageto survey
their execution. To this he might reply that the
actual cost was 2,7001. odd per day, and the general
average cost of the week was 78,000/. To the Noble
Lord's inquiry as to the expenditure during the
month of January he could not reply, but the expense
during the four weeks of December was upwards of
71,000/. He was not in a condition to say what the
extreme expenses were, but he might say that the actual
y of the workmen was from Bd. to 10d. a clay,
and
he extremest p••ints ranged from Bd. to ls. 4d. for the
daily pay during the three months of November, De-
cember, and January, for the relief of the destitute poor.
The expenditure upon labour for four weeks in the
month of November was 308,351/. ; for the first four weeks
in the month of December, 588,045/., and for the nine
weeks of December and January it was 1,500,0001. The
amount of corn in bond during those periods amounted
to 218,000 quarters.—(Hear, hear.) should
Mr. P. SCROPE gave notice that to-morrow he
ask a question of the Government, whether, under the pre-
sent law, the boards of guardians in Ireland were respon-
sible for the relief of the poor ? and if they were, whether i
the guardians of Castlebar ought not to be prosecuatnef_
under the law by her Majesty's Attorney-General;
if they were not whether any steps would be taken to
render them responsible in future? HILL.
OPERATION OF THE PUBLIC WORKS
Mr. ROEBUCK stated that he had a petitionresidtonpl
sent from a poor man named John Hogan,Hogan,die
g out
Dire in the county of Limerick, and which
mahe was
rather a curious case of hardship under which
suffering. lle stated, in the petition, that ha
hre3the agents
w"itY h
short time since, were in number four, a
his son, were employed on the public
of the Government. He had the misfottur , to lose one
of nd in con-
e
of the members of his family—a daughter,
adie works,
sequence of his loss he was dismissed from
time
on
he and his son having been employed for
s U omne der this
them. His son only was retained.
to the board
singular case of hardship he applied
that they
of relief, and their answer
went
on to say that
could not relieve him. The petition
oppression
it was lamentable to allow such determinedno asingle
to be exercised uon a poor family who heal
to be, found in
perch of land, there were instances
whilst , and also
the locality of people who had lands
n these works, and
money in the savings' bank, working. an d cornvorlts,
oso of enablingpure
them to pay their rent better.
BAILWAYS IN IRELAND.—ADJOURNED
DEBATE.
Colonel RAWDON presented a petition from Armagh
in favour of the Bill introduced by the Noble Lord the
Member *Lynn.
The Marquis of GRANBY hoped that the House
would extern
1 its indulgence to him whilst he endea-
vouredke some observations upon the measure, now
undrttho m
the
coansideration of the House. H could assure
the House that it was his anxious de esire to ab-
stain from saying anything which could excite a
personal feeling. He hoped that he might be
allowed to say,.
that lie heard with the deepest regret
the determi
• atton which the Noble Lord. at the
o
had come to
head of the Government respecting
,q this
for
measure; be had hoped from the assurance his Noble
had given to the Noble Lord at the head of the
Friend •
Government, that he proposed this measure, not in
Ministers but as a ,
hos-
tility to her Majesty's
of , means of faci-
litating the carrying
out the measures proposed by the
Government, it would have been favourably received by
the
Government. The Noble
Lord the Member for Lon-
don said he could not support the Bill, and also ex-
pressed• if
his determination,defeated on it, to resign.—
Be(the Marquis of Granby) was •
(Hear, hear.) quite
sure the Noble Lord was actuated by high and
patriotic motives ; bat he reeretted the determi-
nation, as he believed it would be for the injury
of Ireland. He would not go into the comparative
merits of the measures of the Government and the Bill
now under consideration. as he did not think the two
schemes were incompatible. In considering any plan
of relief for Ireland, he would not enter into the causes
that had brought about the present state of that country.
IVhether it had arisen from unwise legislation, or from
the conduct of absentee! landlords—whether it arose
from any peculiarity of disposition in the Irish
people, or the s ye tem of letting land which
prevailed, he would not affirm; but this he would say,
that there were only two practical modes of meeting the
eeil—either by e ditninutieli of the population, or an
increase of capital. Thee was no other remedy.—
(Hear, hear.) Now the Noble Lord the Member
for the City of London had said, that he had no
Government or general plan of emigration. Though he
(the Marquis of Granby) thought a good deal might be
dose in that direction, still he did not think it would be
a cure for the • vile which afflicted Ireland. The next
course, therefore. was to introduce capital into Ireland,
end as from the state of the country and the want of

Lord MORPETH would press the matter to a divi-
sion, even after the speech of his Right Hon. Ficiend
(Mr. Strutt).
The liouse then divided, when there 'appeared,
For the second reading
Against it

Majority against the second reading ... --5
The Bill was consequently lost.
SECOND READINGS.
The following Bills were read a second time:—
Birkenhead Improvement (Waterworks and Purchase of
Birkenhead and tilaughton Waterworks).
Bristol and Clifton Oil Gas Company.
British Exchange Company.
Caledonian Railway (Edinburgh Station and 'Branches
to Granten, &c.)
Eastern Counties Railway Extension. (Cambridge to
Bedford, &c.)
Eastern Counties Railway (Cambridge , Royston, and
Ware line, &c.)
Glasgow, Paisley, and Greenock Railway (Branches at
Port Glasgow, and to the Caledonian Railway and
Diversion of Canal).
Leeds, Wakefield, and Midland Junction Railway.
London and North-Virestern. Railway (Bescot and
Wolverhampton Branch, &c.)
Lon.lon and NortY,Western Railway ( Ormskirk and
Rainford Branr_di., &c.)
Ply:walla and "'ay:stock Turnpike Road.
Salisbury and Yeovil Railway.
Whitehurn and Kelso and Lauder and B,:( Aso Roads.

Tavistock Turnpike Road.
RAILWAYS IN IRELA
Mr. B. OSBORNE gave notice, thr x in the event of
the Bill to stimulate the profitable er aployment of the
Poor in Ireland on Railways, introduce 1 by Lard George
R-nt;.nek, beitig thrown out, he shou lc 1 move the fol-
lok; lug resolution—" That is the oph 3 on of this House
that one of the rent means of pros to tang the profit-
ubie "PPl"ympot of the neople, s,nc t of deveiLipinz
tth rt,,sourees of I',-elaud, is .for the C:ovt Inn:tont tirrnalte
milvaovei to sue) rr,il,,vnys in Irel and as shall, in the
jod;.:lo4..iit of the, Ratixay C..ourdi•io tiers, be works
to b, of nortmstient tydoty, and ,e,ileulated to en-
Lid 00 I,l,.timr burd.,n upon the countrj 7.
Dr. HO WRING moved that the pr :titian from Malta,
date l
etrh: 2 c.)
rbit, February, , he print( d with the Votes.
Lord N a it Right Hon.
)uNc BtAh,ltt, UseNeL.nOgN.ll,,
vlce, roo to ask''ratcihne ?,-thi) e
:enmresiP):Peatirntgnithnet
"" ;bar union.. Emig a repo 1t published in the

confidence, from whatever cause, which prevailed in I then proceeded to read extracts, showing that, as re-
regard
to it, private individuals were not prepered to 1 gnrded his industrious habits, the Irishman was not
introduce capitol, the Bill of the Noble Lord the Member 1 second to the F,nelish labourer. There might have
for Lynn would be the effectual menus of doing so. 1 been eases of idleness and inattention, but as a people,
His Noble Friend had shown so clearly the benefits that he could assure the House that no men had performed
Ireland must derive frond that measure—he bad stated their duty • better. The Right Hot. Gentleman the
so eloquently the employment it would give—the new lute Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Goulburn), had
markets it would open—the increased value to that coun- stated that he spas quite inclined to bow to the opinion
try in the most essential points—the benefit the poor of his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland.
man would derive, not only from the employment it The Right Hon. Gentleman had stated that enterprise
would give, but from the industrious habits it would and capital had succeeded in forming railways in
cherish, by attaching him fully to the comforts of England, and he wished to know why the same capital
his home, that he thought it would be one of the and enterprise should not have been sueceesful in form-
most desirable measures ever proposed.—(Hear.) He ing raialways in Ireland? Why, the Right Hon. Gentle-
would refrain from expressing any opinion of his own, man might, perhaps, know, that the climate of Italy and
but he might be permitted to quote the opinions of others. the south of France was favourable to the cultivation of
He would call the attention of the House, in the first the vine. No capital in England, without the aid of
place, to a memorial presented to Lord Besborough forcing houses, could ever bring thevinetogpliearh-
in 1846. The memorial was from the inhabi- fe.ction ; nor could they without the aid of English
tants of the city of Dublin, whose Mopinions capital and enterprise ever form railways in Ireland, or
certainly ought to be considered on such a question. ever make them available for the relief of the people.
(The Noble Lord here read the document in question, There was one of the best lines in the country—that
which stated that the memorialists were aware of from Limerick to Ennis. At one end, of the line there
the strong opinion of the country to promote railway was a population of 60,000, and 12,000 at the other, and
enterprise, from which they expected the greatest pos- serving a population of from 100,000 to 400,000, and
sible good would result ; that 40,000 persons were which was calculated to take in the accommodation of a
employed by the works then in operation ; and pressing hundred miles of river. He had received a letter this
the matter warmly on the attention of his Excellency.) morning from a gentleman in Ireland, and it confirmed
He was not arguing that in a country where employment all the views that he (the Marquis of Granby) had ad-
was ample, where food was abundant, where artificial vanced. The Bill of his Noble Friend would confer the
wants had already been established, where happiness and greatest benefits on the people of Ireland without any
abundance reigned—he was not arguing that in such cost to this country. He hoped, however, they would
a country as that they might not quicken the pulse of that not look to the results that would follow the mere ex-
country to a feverish and unhealthy action; but what he penditure of the money, but to the increased prosperity
was saying was this, that in the present low of the country, and the various other concomitant ad-
and unfortunate condition of Ireland a system vantages which would arise—by which not only the
of railways well carried out might produce the present distress would be alleviated, but the foundation
most important benefits. Amongst the other important laid of permanent good.—(Hear, hear.) He begged to
effects a system of railways must have in Ireland at the thank the House for the patience with which they had
present moment, he thought would be the means of faci. heard him.
litating the transference of fish throughout Ireland. Mr. BROWNE said that the 20th clause of the Bill pro-
He held in his hand a latter he had received from vided that one-third of the stock should be advanced by the
a gentleman in Ireland who was well versed on this sub- shareholders, and that the Government should advance the re-
ject, and for whose talents and integrity he could vouch. mainder on the security of the undertaking. Now this was a
It was not, however, written for the purpose of' assisting mercantile speculation, and he doubted if the result
iau would be
t
the Noble Lord's motion, because it was dated, and he any thing but disastrous. All railroads in Ireland d w
esuch cirecreu
received it so far back as the end of October, 1845. present at a dscounhtietcept three;e schemeand,
that couldun be considered
he writer said, that at the end of October, 1845,
er stances,fav did
that the circulation of paper-
he was in Galway, and was much interestd with moneyv
,v ohuerable.notltt wasn
would not derange the monetary affairs of the country,
the proceedings of the Claddagh fishermen. The but if any one looked at the history of the financesof this coun-
herrings were on the bank, and he observed try, he would come to a different conclusion. Many applica-
at least a thousand boats stand out to sea. The corn- tions for the reduction of duties in various articles had been
munity were under the direction of a king, whom they made to the Government, but if the revenue was burdened in
obeyed more implicitly than any other monarch. the way proposed, there could be no attention paid to these ap-
The thousand fishing boats brought in, on an average, plications. He trusted the Chancellor of the Exchequer would
8,000 herrings, which sold at the rate of 10s. a thou- sustain the national faith, bat if that were to be done, all use-
sand, or 120 for is. This number was equally less iollnodneulniitveinrytreuxapt:ni dhietuarhenmuludstnobjnaevoidFd.—d (Hteard.)on
divided among the fishermen, and before the close
make, or
otzat
in
such observations he should think it right tom
of the day they were sold to purchasers who anything he should say he should be supposed to be averse to
attended with horses and carts, to hawk them over the the extension of railway communication in Ireland. On the
country. Eight thousand herrings at 10s. per thousand contrary, he was of opinion that no means could be more fairly
came to 41. per boat, and the gross amount was, or effectually applied to develope the resources of that country.
therefore, 4,0001. per day. The shoals of herrings He considered, however, that the measure was exorbitant and
continued off the head of the bank; but the King of unreasonable in itself, that its benefits to Ireland were ques-
Claddagh would not allow any of the fishing.boats to go tionable, and that its effects would be injurious not only to the
out until the hawkers returned.—(Hear, hear.) Thus public interests, but to the credit and commercial character of
the United Kingdom. It wasnot his intention to refer to the va-
four days elapsed, and on the evening of the
rious objections which had been'made te:themeasureby speakers
fourth day the horses and carts arrived, and the
in the former part of the debate, but there was one to which he
fishermen again put to sea. It was plain that begged to call the attention of the House, which was the Oa-
if railways had existed 4,0001. worth of herrings grant immorality of the measure. There was no one more
might have been fished on each day, and con- convinced than he was of the purity, the patriotism, and the
veyed throughout Ireland and to Dublin. Thus, for philanthropy of the Noble Lord who introduced the Bill, but
want of rail ways many thousands of pounds were that was not what they had now to consider, and he had no he-
lost, and the evil was the more ielt because sitation in calling it an extensive scheme for the encourage-
for want of these railways no curing was carried on ment of railway gambling under the auspices of the State. He
in consequence of the very high price of salt. trusted that in making that statement he should not be consi-
It bad been objected to the plan of his Noble Friend, dered guilty of misrepresentation or exaggeration. What was
that there would be such difficulty in carrying it out, that the definition of gambling ? Was it not staking money on
they would never raise the 16,000,000/e and that the , creditless adventures in the hope of realising large profits? Well,
If that
.were a correct definition, he could not believe that any
plan would therefore be refused. But he did not think
that this country is as in such a condition that the sum mrneeta,atrttyllrmix wouldruilwa cluesraatueutteurmweaasugafuorautheinesnecuouurerafued-
could not be raised. Ile would not obtrude any opinion creditless adventure. y They had only tyo look to the prostrate
of his upon the House, because it would be of no avail; but condition of railway stock in that country, to be convinced of
he did understand from a friend of his who was well ac- this. He did not know what the Noble Lord the Member for
quainted with the finances of the country, that it Lynn would say to this, but it was the only criterion by which
was preposterous to suppose that four millions of the matter could be tested, and, in his mind, the verdict was
money could net be raised in this country during conclusive. Now the whole scope of the argument in favour of
the year 1447 for the relief of the destitute the measure was, that the credit merely of the State was lent
poor in Ireland. Another objection was, that the people
natoenetaxecwuntneld
thief' reun.patlrakrufr ,hen that
uthhe
dint:l:get d-
of England would' object to the imposition of a tax whether such expectations would be veevvyer mrealised. He
for the relict of the people of Ireland. The Noble did not doubt but, by the proposed plan, a certain
Marquis thee read a series of extracts from the account value would be given to the shares in the various lines to which
of a friend, which stated that on last Monday morning there the Government advances were to be extended, but this would
were no less than 44 corpses lying dead in cue house, be but temporary, and they would soon subside into the same
and that over one hundred bodies had been deposited state as they were before. The wise were convinced of this
in the small burial grounds of Skibbeieea and the from the
.firste, aid twhoenlirlarvuedennf tthweosualdd
reality.
It convincedtwa by yo the
neighbouring places, and that in those places no less. sad
theylfopreer,letnherough the influence of some del'uysion that what
than 401 bodies had been found apparently dead from therefore,
starvation, and that not less than 1,600 victims
they now, in their lucid moments, considered valueless, should
be thought valuable from Government assistance. He
to this terrible calamity had fallen within these considered he was speaking most justly in designating
few months.—(Hear, hear.) Would the people of the scheme as one that held out encouragement to
England refuse assistance in such a case es this, or a system of gambling.--(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord on
hesitate at any measure calculated for the effectual she eloquent and lucid speech in which he brought forward
relief of the poor in Ireland? He was quite sure that at the measure, stated that one benefit to be conferred by it
the present moment no such measure would be refused would be that the Irish landlords who had shares in these
for the people of Ireland, and the only difference be- undertakings would sell them In order to improve their estates
tween the plans of the Noble Lord opposite and his with the proceeds, but the Noble Lord told them in the same
Noble Friend was, that the latter would enable breath that the way to improve Ireland was to construct rail-
the Government to use the resources of the ways. He hoped the House would not give its sanction to
Government, while the former would not. The such a great act of public profligacy. It was not a year since
Right Hon. Gentleman had said that some time the House resounded with denunciations of the pernicious
spaimribtahich tThhentpseprityraditeiwerd the countr with respect toherahiloweaed
must elapse before the railways could be formed, and
they would not
that during that time no return for the money would begive their sanction lyingt odcileo rpmreapnota,aia
ofd the Noblep
coming in. He did not see the Right lion. Gentleman in Lord the Membr for Lynn, and resuscitate- its slumbering
his place then, but he was quite sure that he would energies to work the same evils.
be very glad to hear that no such circum- Mr. Alderman THOMPSON was rather surprised to hear
stance could occur, for there was a clause in the the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down ;designate the
Bill which provided that the interest of the money Bill of the Noble Lord as a measure for the encouragement
should be paid by the Irish railways. This was not all of immorality in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) It was much to be
rfegretted that the Hon. Member had not been in the House
—he would go further—he could prove that not only
ing for soofme
manyt
imerapial
railway
otherwiseiills (qamui7ghhtterh)ave the
islioapKtudhla
pass-
would not a single farthing come from the pockets ofiiendthe English people, but it would put money beside him, reminded him —that with respect to some of the
into the Treasury. He would take a passage from railways in Ireland, both Houses of Parliament suspended the
the Spectator of last week, and be supposed standing orders, that their passing might be facilitated.
that gentleman could not suspect it to be a paper likely In his opinion, the present was the very time that the Govern-
to be unduly influenced by his Noble Friend or his ment ought to assist Ireland. The Hon. Gentelman had in-
party. It said that it was not only the magnificent pro- stanced America. But let him ask the Hon. Gentleman, were
mises which could be seen in the proposition of not the large canals, public roads, and other great works, for
the Noble Lord, or in the elaborately lucid the most part performed ;by the Government ? He believed
that thel objections raised to this measure might be divided into
sp soh of the proposer —it was the specific
privatetwo. nenthteerpfirrissteptawcietth wvcshsaLtehrnatmrea
nature of the object at which he aimed, and the
nittwastsoiviillrenO7nirieterrly-
explicit account of the way in which the plan was ex- fere ; and in die second place, that it would derange
pected to work. In all these respects the plan stood in the financial system as laid down by the Govern-
formidable opposition and contrast to the plan of the ment. With regard to the first objection, several
Ministry. It was like the substance placed op- cases had been cited where Government had come forward
posite to the shadow. They had these laid for public works, not only in England, Scotland, and Ireland,
down all the Noble Lord's data—they might be dis- but even in the colonies. The principle laid down by the
puted, they might be falsified, but, then, they were noble Lordhadbeen already approved of by a Select Committee
challenging scrutiny. Three Chancellors of the Ex- of that Home. That Committee had been appointed to con-
chequer had got up one after the other, and not one of eider this subject. Of that Committee some of her Majesty's
them had attempted to deny any important fact or state- Government were members. In page 7of that report, among
the remedial measures proposed for the improvement of
ment of the Noble Lord's.—(Hear, bear.) His Noble
Ireland, was the promotion of public works, and
Friend had said in his speech that there would be
theCsommoitftee
theexprilosen!e seriouslytheir desir
the
of
hecalling the
liaudest been
question.
600,0001. or 700,000/. put into the Treasury from the
attention
increase of the Customs and Excise under the A Billwas introduced for that
purpose. He to
himself
operation of tee Bill ; and could they say that consulted on the Bill, and the honour was even done him of
that was no advantage to the people of England? employing his name in it. He must allude to what had been
The measure wo ild, therefore, put 600,0001. or 700,00 e/. said as to there being less distress in the north of Ireland' than
into the Treasury.—(Hear, hear.) An endeavour had in any other part of the country at the present time. Now it
been made the of der evening by the Right lion. Gentle was owing to the employment that was found for able-bodied
man the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to prove that the labourers on those railways that that distress did
data of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn was false. not exist. It had been also said that the Irish
He had asserted that the scheme, instead of employin would not he employed on those railways; but
112,000 men, would only find em to ment fogr were there not hundreds of them employed on railways at pre.
45,000. It was not his (the ..fa of sent it this country ? With regard to the financial part of the
quunedsetri osno,mhee
fiwnaitsnrcleal difficulty, to im i twtliiialt haeffecountry i labouringnwqausestion sh l y
Granby's) intention to go into these calcu-
latiops at any length, as the Right Hon. Gentle- the Government securities. The Bill of his Noble Friend the
mans statement had been most ably exposed by Member for Lynn did not propose to increase the taxation, and
the Hon. Member for Newark and' the Right before Government was required to do so there would be ad-
Hon. Member for Sunderland (Mr. Hudson). vanced a sufficient sum to proceed with. Four millions had
They had shown that instead of calculating for been advanced for East India railways, for the liability of the
four millions of money, he should have taken Indian Governmentas t wets confirmedihtris
ie bsysi:.ohneld Government ofti
six millions, and that he had committed a thislre an country.
great mistake in setting down the earthwork at onl as well as in India? He regrettedy that the Noble
Y Lord did not feel it his duty to adopt the Bill even in a
25 per cent, of the whole cost. Now, he would call the modified shape.
attention of the House to one-Irish line, which was the Mr. F. FRENCH said be was anxious to say a few words
most favourable to the present plan, in proof of the in explanation of some statements which were made by the
incorrectness of the statement of the Right Hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer with reference to Ire-
Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer— land, but before he could do so, he desired to
it was the line from Dublin to Mullinga bear his testimony to the laborious research of the
and Athlone. The earthwork and labour of that finer Noble Member for Lynn, and his admirationheoffortehethluee.4 and
cost 3,6001. a mile. Now, it was said that a million of clear method in which opinionsehepdelabctednfhis
gratitude; he had been thee
money would employ 45,000 persons ;if so, a 1,000/ Irelandfirs t
statesman owed
who had
d
the courage to come forward and lift
would find employment for 41, or 3,600/. for 162 persons. country had so long withered ; and
the veil under whhichnaetdhpe
Therefore, accordine. t i the Right Hon. Gentleman's his example should be followed by those who would in future
own principle, a mile of the railway in question would attempt to govern the country. He felt it his duty to repel all
employ 162 persons. Now this was an unfavourable charges which reflected on the character of Ireland, and he
specimen of what the Bill would do ; inasmuch as, while cared not whether those charges proceeded from those to
this line cost 9,0001. a mile, and 3,6001. a mile for earth- whom he was politically opposed or otherwise, for,
work and labour, 3,600/ per mile had been pail for the come they whence they might, as long as he
grand canal, making the actual cost but 6,4001 (Hear.) possessed a seat in that House, he would raise his
It had been attempted Lobe denied that the Noble Lord had voice in defence of the country. The first circumstance to
no right to assume that 500,000 persons would derive ein• which he would allude, was the statement made by the Chau-
pleyment from his plan; but he could not understand that cellar of the Exchequer that the Grand Canal owed a sum
o case of 100,000 e which had never been repaid. Now the facts of
because men were employed in earthworks, that their thatTh
families, who might not be employed in other ways, would e
Gre
Grand were
cthese:—Theeeal
w h
when
t sum originally
het.tnnwas lent, lent w
had an income 4nc7ontoL
mof
be benefited. The Right Hon, Gentleman bad said 50,0001., and they bad a clear profit of 300/. a wile. They
that the really destitute would not be relievt d. How were anxious to extend the line to Ballinasloe, and had there
could they create any great work of improvement, any been proper security taken, there would not have been even a
great reproductive work, and not employ able-bodit d sixpence of the money lost. But the Chancellor of the Ex-
men ? Why, it was imposs,ble. If 112,000 men were chequer of the day took a security upon a line not
employed, would not they be of benefit ? The Right made'
which was and
wholly whichand entirely. bog. was to run throughconsequencewas
a country
T
Hoe. Gentleman had also said that the contractors would
that that portion did not pay either principal or interest, and
not take all the labourers from the immediate neigh a compromise had been lately offered of 10,0001. for the whole
bourhood of the railway s.—(Hear, hear.) He be- debt. The fault lay completely with the Chancellor of the
lieved that all the labourers would not be taken Exchequer, who lent the money upon bad security. The next
from the immediate:neighbourhood, but no doubt a large statement which was made was in reference to the sum of
number would, The Right lion. Gentleman had stated 12,0001. to the great city of Cork, which is annually rated at
that all the railroads went eastwards, while all the dis- two or three hundred thousand pounds. This sum is reported
tress was in the west. Was that the fact ? Were never to have been paid. This was a like case with the former;
there not railways from Waterford to Limerick, from and he would ask the Heine if proper security had been taken
Thurles to Cork, from Waterford to Cork, from Cork in this instance? Was it likely that the city_ohferCeorkassvoLlod
to Blackrock, and other parts of the country in the not have paid the_ debt?—(Hear,_ hear.) T
western parts of Ireland ?He feared also that the sum. of one. hundred . thousand pounds lent twfecbutaiitlyd
two bridges in Limerick, and the only •
House
Supposing the distress was not in the west of Ireland. taken was the tolls upon the bridges.—(Hear.) Let the House
Supposing he was correct in his second statement, that
all railways were on the eastward, what was the naturalsum merely from the tolls arising from t
suchconsiader whether a place like Limerick would be ablehtroidreepl
of wan Noble bridges
conclusion to come to, but that they would take their This had been done during the Chancellorshipt
he House—he meant Lord
labourers from those districts in which was distress and who did not then
an abundance of labour ? Well, but it was said this Monteaele-
would be taking the labourers from agriculture. He ad- avail tfohreTeelvesoi "I
drainage of their estates. But they were pro •
The
e atu soena of
ut
money
i n
Ireland'granted
last had
year endeavoured
h y
way
u tof
slated at once that this would be a great and serious loans
themselves of the provisions of
evil, bat when he reflected that two. millions of people
tenants vented,
for
rr ilifethacclonbideennodteacvi
ildeild by the Lord Chancellor that
u ort the Bill of Noble
were nearly dying of starvation from the want the Bil.—(
of employment, he could not help thinking that!rvitece- tibliCalllithenohtasd support
stated, the
and he
with in favour of the. amendment.e
with all their aid and assistance, there would r.o
wouldel forac c theer- _-(Hear.)
nreeagairsy.o)wn
be a sufficient number left for tilling the land. Mr. NEWDEGATE said he would support the measure of
He did not think that there was any danger of a want of the Noble Member far Lynn, which he considered well calms.
dated to meet the exigencies of Irelaiel.—(Hear, hear. He
bands to cultivate the land ; but the Right Hon. the
had been surprised at the Right Hon. Member for. Por
Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that the Irishman
mouth, and the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor ofthets-
Exchequer, stating that these railways never would regy the
was incompetent, either from his physical energes, or
lonseealgreeoantelirnnes proposed
his industrial habits, for the labour required on rail !vays•
capital, on account cf being merely
tehnePeeleilaidlYintgh directions. It concerns,
e dell
Why, they found that the Irish peasant was superior to hiedto
intersect t h t they e y Irelandw ere such,in
the Englishman, and he would read. to the House the se- to was we
known to every gentleman in the House, at all
could be no better investment
veral proportions of the two countries. He found that the
conversant with
e E height of the Englishman was sixty-eight works rd this kind, that there
inches, and the Irishman seventy; the average weight than through lines of railway, which not only took up all the
of the Englishman 15 llbs.Lof the Irishman leelbs ; the traffic of the districts through which they passed, but accoinmo-
average strength of the Englishman 403, and ei. the eased the terminal traffic of the principal parts of the kingdom.
Irishman 432.—(Hear. hear.) He thought, therefore, r—( flear, bear. ) A great deal had likewise been said, in the
that there existed no physical reason why the Irishman
progress of this discussion, about the principles of political
economy, and of their violation by the
should cot be employed on railways. The Noble L9rd present Bill. But was

it not absurd to talk of political economy in the present state a
Ireland, when the people were starving? The circumstances
of England and Ireland were altogether different. During
the last eleven years there had Bills passed for 7,200 milts
of railway in England,'of which one-third, or 2,600 miles, had
been completed, leaving yet to make 4,600 miles. In the
same time Bills for Ireland had passed for the con-
struction of 1,523 miles, of which but 123 miles
had been completed, leaving yet unconstructed 1,400
miles. By this it would appear, that while England had con.
structed one-third of the lines for which Acts had been ob.
tained, Ireland had constructed but one-twelfth, and of this
one-twelfth they had been told that the great proportion of
capital had been subscribed by England. If this were so, and
if such a small proportion of the Irish railways had been made.
the result could only be attributed to the deplorable condition
of Ireland during the last few years. To talk therefore
of applying the principles of political economy under
such circumstances wal perfectly absurd.—(Hear, hear. )
The people of Ireland required employment, and the
plan of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn was expressly
adapted for the purpose. There was a vast amount of capital
in this country which at present could only be employed in
Government securities, and he saw no better mode of employ-
ing it than by the carrying out of the works contemplated by
the present Bill. He admitted that there were evident signs of
a coming financial difficulty and a commercial crisis ; but that
was in connexion with the present monetary system, and the
altered circumstances of the country, occasioned by the abro-
gation of the protective system last year. The commercial
difficulty which he apprehended would, therefore, arise out
of the present monetary system, and the excess of imports
over exports, occasioned by the legislation of last year; but
because there was a probability of such a crisis, were the peo-
ple of Ireland to be left to starve ? Was no provi-
sion to be made for them ?—( Hear, hear.) He submitted
that there must, and that the Bill now under the consideration
of the House was well adapted for the purpose. The Hon.
Member then proceeded to show how the present monetary
system operated against the extension of railway and other
public works, and in support of the views he advanced, read a
long extract from a letter which he said he had received from
an esteemed friend, in illustration of the injurious effects of the
currency measures of Sir Robert Peel. He believed that
the real difficulty existed in the monetary system. Why four
millions annually was only a part of the means adopted to
meet the emergency of the war, when the expenditure of the
country was 73,000,000!. Was there then any real impossibility
to meet the exigencies of Ireland ? In 1843 the income-tax
was ten per cent., while now it was only three per cent. The
whole of the tax proposed now was less than nine per cent.
Could they refuse to raise less than one-half ? He believed
there was no difficulty, and if there was a difficulty, it arose
' from the monetary system. The difficulty, if one there was,
arose from speculations in foreign railways, and when the crisis
has come, and when the bullion might be assorted, the specu-
lation in foreign railways kept capital short. He asked
whether it was wise to restrict one department whereby
the exchanges were regulated, when the other
department was confessedly employed to restrict the
enterprise of commercial capital ? He saw the Member
for the city of London smile, but he only spoke
on the authority of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and if
there were no difficulty there was no necessity for restricting
this accommodatio4.—( Hear, hear.) if these opinions were
erroneous he alone was responsible for them ; but he would
turn to another podit. He believed that in 1835 the drains
for gold on the Bank began, and with the commencement of
that drain all the difficulty arose.—(Hear, hear.) He
must confess that he felt considerable surprise at the spirit in
which the Government had met the proposal of his Hon.
Friend.

Mr. J. O'CONNELL felt considerable difficulty in giving
his vote on the present occasion. He felt that there was
one great benefit in the Noble Lord's proposal, and that
was, that it promised immediate employment.--( Hear, hear.)
But the Irish Members felt themselves in this difficulty,
that while the Noble Lord at the head of the Government
promised immediate employment, yet the plan of ti.e
Noble Lord the Member for Lynn (Lord George Bentinck)
promised something commensurate with the distress now ex-
isting in Ireland. He was quite ready to allow that the Go-
vernment and the people, both within and out of the House, had
evinced the warmest sympathy for the people of Ireland, and
he did hope that the Government would have taken up this
plan, and even if it were modified, that they would have car-
ried it out. France had adopted some such plan, and it had been
discovered that in their taking possession of the railways in
that country they had found their account. Not only had the
Government of that country realised all they expected, but had
obtained a dividend out of the returns. The plan of the Noble Lord
the Member for Lynn seemed to give the only chance of getting
the relief that was necessary, and for that reason he would give
his humble vote for the motion of the Noble Lord opposite.
He deeply regretted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should
have felt it his duty to advance a position that the officials in
Ireland had not done their duty. He deeply regretted this,
because that Right Hon. Gentleman had stated to the House,
when something more than 300,0001. had been advanced for s
wide street in Dublin, that nothing of this sum had been
repaid. This was entirely a mistake, and he would take the
paper which had been given in a return of the moneys carried
from the English to the Irish Exchequer, and the contrary.
By that paper it appeared that the remittances front
the English Exchequer to the Irish Exchequer was
7,000,0004, whilst the remittances from Ireland during
the same period, that was from the period of the
union till last year was 26,000,0004, making the
difference in favour of the Irish Exchequer of 19,000,0001.
Was this any proof that the advantage had been all on the side
of Ireland ? Then there was a question respecting
the expenditure of 500,0001. on the part of Eng-
land for the improvement of Dublin, but the same
principle held good in this as in the ether case.
By the financial returns it would appear that 3,600,0001. were
advanced for the support of the Irish police. Now, if this
were solely and purely an Irish loan it would be proper that
Ireland should pay all of it, but it must be recollected that the
constabulary of Ireland did the duty of soldiers, and if this
police force did not exist the army would have to be extended by
some 7,000 or 8,000 men. Still the sum was in the course of
repayment. With regard to the roads and bridges there had
been upwards of 600,000/. advaneed to Ireland on that an-
, count, of which all had been repaid with the exception of
24,000/. He must now go into other matters. In the Scotch
isheries upwards of 1,400,000/. had been expended by the
public exchequer since I 809,while the amount advanced to Irish
fisheries since /800 only amounted to 300,000/. Now, he found
that although large sums of money had been advanced to Ire-
land, the treaty of union had been violated by this country ha
its fiscal provisions and other of its provisions. He did not in-
tend to go into minute details upon the point, but the House
might rely upon the figures he was about to quote ; indeed they
could be proved by Parliamentary returns. Since the union
Great Britain bad been relieved from taxation to the extent of
47,100,00 W., while Ireland had only been relieved to the ex-
tent of 2,670,000/. The taxes imposed on England since the union
amounted to 40,120,000/., and the imposition upon Ireland
was 5,510,000/. 'Therefore England had had an excess of
relief from taxation over the amount imposed of 6,500,0004 ;
whereas Ireland had experienced an excess of taxation amount-
ing to 2,800,0001., a sum greater in amount than the relief
given. On these grounds alone Ireland was entitled to a large
measure of relief in her present emergency ; but the relief
would be useless if the House did not follow it up with mea-
sures to raise the general condidition of the people.
It was their bounden duty to do so in strict
honesty to their own interests. At all events, it
they did not do so, they would leave themselves
open to a recurrence of the terrible calamity which threatened
to drain the coffers of the country. The condition of the
people must be raised, and then Ireland would be in a position
to repay the debt. But, even supposing Ireland should be
unable to repay the whole of the debt, if their condition were
improved they would be able to repay this country in the shape
of an increased revenue. Out of thirty millions paid to the
revenue of the United Kingdom Ireland only contributed
seven. Now this was by no means proportionate when it was
remembered that the population was as eight to eighteen...-.
(Hear, hear.) The truth was the people of Ireland
were too poor, and could not afford to purchase excisable
and customs-paying articles in proportion to England. There
was, besides, a large quantity of foreign manufactures consumed
in Ireland, upon which the duty was paid in this country, which
were estimated at the value of 380,000/. per annum, and some
60,000/. or 70,0001. derived from Crown lands, for which Ire-
land was not given credit. The people of Ireland were taxed
at the same rate as the people of this country, but they were too
poor to be punctual to the same extent. Ho might men-
tion a simple hypothetical case, as an illustration of the
position of the people of Ireland. Supposing a local rate of
one penny in the pound were levied upon meat, the poor man
purchased his two pounds and paid his twopence, while
the rich man bought his eighteen pounds and paid his one
shilling and sixpence There was excess of taxation here.
The poor man, in proportion to his money, paid the
same as the rich, and that was exactly the position
of Ireland. Now, what the House should do,
would be to endeavour to better her trade and condition, and
thus enable her to contribute her proper share to the revenue.
Mr. CORRY explained the course which he adopted
when he was invited to join the Irish party in their deliberate,
tions, namely, that before he took any other step he should
wait the result of the Government measures already proposed.
He agreed with his Noble Friend that the construction of rail.
ways in Ireland would be productive of much good, but he
thought they would be ill adapted to relieve the present dis-
tress which prevailed in that country. He considered that it
was the duty of the State to arrest the progress of the famine,
and he was glad to see that her Majesty's Government did not
hesitate to come forward to meet the emergency. They had
already expended nine millions for that purpose. He could not
assent, therefore, to the great additional outlay which was pro-
posed by this Bill. He did not take so favourable a view of
the calamity as to suppose that it would terminate with the
next harvest, as the scarcity of the seed for this
year's crop, and the anticipated failure of the potato crop again„
were not such as to warrant such an expectation. He, there.
fore, thought that the resources of the State should be hue.
banded, and kept to await the possible continuation of a state of
things much worse than the present. Besides, even if they did
expend all this money, they might find, a' the expiration of
the four years, that the withdrawal of the expenditure then
would leave the people who were dependent on it in as helpless
a condition as that which it was intended to relieve. Ha
thought, moreover, that it would beget a feeling of dependence,
which, more than anything else, contributed to depress the
energies of the Irish people. The scheme was a dazzling
posal, but lie did not consider it would be a justrtronneaouf measure
the people of this country, and that a great portion iinstead of
money would go into the pockets of thed speculator._
those for whose benefit it was intend: should, there.
fore, vote against the second reading
dire I
e I3ill.
Bill. He was not
Sir WILLIAM CLAY
opposed out of the hands of the
disposed to take so large
Government.
such expenditure.
He did nont measuree,nisider the House e ofd did
dContnonat
Commons
did its dutsy
in
Idditi"agdsvuanced to railway companies at 34
why
ceme°t.nev,:hsehrthe market rate of interest was so much
higher. It was said that Government interference with fresh
railways was against
the principles of political ccononiy ; but,
.
though be was opposed to the measure, he could not assent to
such a doctrine, for he believed that many of the measures
formerly adopted, and now advocated, partook of the same
nature. He thought, however, that though the Houle should
not legislate for speculators, they should take care that a good
system of railways should be constructed to develope the re-
sources of the country. They ought, however, to follow, not pre-
cede, the development of commerce, as they did in this country.
It was also said that railways would not afford immediate relief
to the distressed labourers; but the point of fact was, that the
earthworks to be executed would afford a very considerable
amount of labour ; and lie was inf,:rmed that the Dublin and
Cashel Railway had been willing to have made the whole of
their earth- works, from one end of tke line to the other, but
the presentments were refused, and the money was expended
upon public works, when it might have been more profitablji
expended.—(Herr, hear.) It was to the future which he most
looked to. They should not alone examine the preseof
pressing calamity, for it was necessary that the"
should endeavour to restore a sound social system',
which would not he until there was a perfect
security for the investment of capital, either in commerce
manufacture, or agriculture. A system of railways would bS
most beneficial to Ireland, as it would be a means of den.,
loping the application of capital. He therefore consider
that the question of a system of railway extension was wet
worthy of the anxious consideration of the House ; and hi,
hoped that the Government would devise some plan whie,'n week
involve the principle of the Noble Lord.
Mr. SHAW said that he did not mean to enter into tbf.
particular merits of the measure before the !douse. His feel.
ings would lead him one way, but his judgment and reason let
him another. Considering the Oat:anent which he heard it