The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-06 00:00:00

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these coo d be
o doubt that more were certain districts labouring
from what the Noble Lord properly called "local con-
gestion," which resulted from the circumstances of the
people of those districts having hitherto sub •
misted almost entirely upon the potato, an (
the failura of the land in producing that ror t
had rendered it incapable of supporting tea
masses that were congregated upon it.—(llear, hear.)
Mr. Ott,ay, one of the witnesses examined
before the Poor-law Ctmmittee, bore out this view
of the case. That gentleman was asked how he
amounted for the destitution of these districts, and his
answer was that the land was insufficient to support the
poor upon it.
An HoN MEMBER—And a foolish answer it was.
Mr. B. OSBORNE proceeded—Some Hon. Gentle-
man remarked, " And a foolish answer it was;"
but if that Honourable Gentleman would take the
trouble to reflect that the land had become too
impoverished to grow anything else but potatoes, he
would see at once that it was quite reasonable to sup-
pose that it could not produce food enough
to support the people upon it.—(Hear, hear.)
If the Noble Lord's Government deserved the name of
one it ought not to throw itself on the charity of the
House, but ought to come forward with some definite plan
which would do away with eleemosynary relief, and place
the people of Ireland in a situation to maintain
themselves, and by which those enormous
sums of money which had been wasted by the
House might bo saved to this country.
The poor-laws did:not add to the resources or the capital
of the country, but tended rather to diminish them.
Ho had himself been obliged to discharge a
number of labourers in consequence of having
been obliged to pay last year 1,0001. for poor-rates, and
yet they were told the property of Ireland must support
the poor population. That was a most dangerous doctrine
to promulgate, and they might talk of Louis Blancism;
and, speaking of that gentleman, he would do him the
justice to say that he did dot support the
ateliers nationaux ; and they might talk of
Poulett Scropism—(Laughter)—but he would say that
the doctrine that property was responsible for poverty
was nothing but a system of legalized communism.
—(Loud cries of Hear, hear.) There must be other
measures besides a poor-law, and he would ask the
Government what were they to be ? The Noble
Lord was bound to introduce a Bill to enforce the
sale of those lands which did not pay their
portion of the poor-rates.—(Hear.) There seemed to be
an idea in the House that the poor-law would promote
the sale of estates in Ireland, but that was one of the
greatest fallacies in the world. The produce was
liable, but not so the fee of the land. The Noble Lord
ought to have shown some of the legislative boldness
which was said to be his eharacteristic, and proposed
such a measure as that now suggested. One reason as-
signed fir the non- coil, viols of rates was that the pro-
perties were under the management of' the Court of
Chancery. The rental of property under such manage-
ment was upwards of 1,000,0001., and not more than
2,0001., or ss. per cent, per annum, was laid out on the
improvement of those properties. As regarded a portion
of rent, amounting to 100,0001., not one single sixpence
was laid out on improvements. The Hon. Member for
Limerick, who was a Repealer, and therefore more likely
to be asked his opinion than an independent Member,
recommended an indiscriminate rate between pasture
and arable land. He (Mr. Osborne) would not adopt
such an antediluvian system as should compel a man
to put a piece of land in grass. Ireland had been
described as a country with aristocratic institutions,
but without an aristocracy. In the printed papers
a case was mentioned of a large landed proprietor
in the west of Ireland who had been reduced to
support his family on the milk of two cows. They were
seized for debt, but, having been redeemed by a friend
and restored to him, they were seized again for Fer-
rates. If matters were come to such a pass, the Govern-
ment ought to afford facilities for making land an article
of sale, should simplify the process, and reduce the ex-
pense of transferring it from one holder to another. The
consequence would be, that the land would fall into the
hands of those who would turn it to the best advantage,
not only for themselves, but for the country. These
measures might be too bold for the Noble Lord, wile
might rather be disposed to content himself with coming
to Parliament for an occasional dole; but it was for the
House to adopt measures which would be adequate to
meet the circumstances of the case. He knew not WhliS
effect the Noble Lord's dream of the future might have
on the minds of Hon. Gentlemen. The Noble Lord had
said he had no doubt that Ireland was in a state of trap-
sition ; and that at no distant period she would be pros'
perous. The Noble Lord told the House that, when the
starving people should crawl like famished rats on the
barren soil, new modes of cultivation would be intro'
duced, and spontaneous harvests would follow.

Lord J. RUSSELL—I said nothing like it.
Mr. OSBORNE continued—He had come to the
cheerless conviction that, as long as the destinies of tbie
empire were swayed by the present combination of par'
ties, so long would Ireland have no hope but in looking
to the root which had caused her present destitution.
and England would have no protection from the painful
effects of that union which infused the infection of paw'
perism into her more healthy and less corrupted frame'
He should vote against the proposition on the press
occasion, though if the Noble Lord had come forwar
with some plan suited to the urgency of the occasions
no man would have been more ready to give it bi
support.
Sir ROBERT PEEL—Sir, without one word of
preface, I shall address myself immediately to the
two main questions submitted to our consideration'
its the present state of Ireland shall we leave the people
to be supported exclusively by the resources of the,
union or electoral division within which they live'
and, secondly, it we are of opinion that some
trinsio aid is necessary, from what source shall that std
be derived? Sir, I cannot reconcile myself to give 11(
vote which shall throw the sustenance of the people 0
Ireland, in the present condition of that country, 1113°1:
the individual unions. I have read these papers—lhe„';
seen the exertions that have been made in many of thesi,
unions to contribute to the support of the poor. I thine
great injustice has- been done in this country Beth
landed proprietors in many parts of Ireland.—(
s,'
hear.) I find conclusiveevidence that, at least in We%
parts of Ireland, the most strenuous local exertions bsv;
been made; speaking of many unions there has heenno
willing submission to the law; and if the whole alnene;i
of rate has not been levied it has been from a phyl°
impossibility.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore I think t'
attempt to create a prejudice against Irish proprietf ire
on the part of this country is most unjust. Not that
am prepared to deny that in many cases there has 1310
great impropriety, and that individuals have triedf
escape from a burden they ought to have borne. Int
not a word in respect to the system of eviction, which
is utterly impossible in many cases to prevent. Ont b 0
must say anything like indiscriminate censure of !oh
landlords of Ireland and the strenuous exertions
have been made in many parts would be most unjust" 00
(Hear, hear.) lam satisfied by this evidence that if ilia
do refuse any extrinsic aid the consequence must be
loss of life by famine, and by the spread of disease ertroi
pling the energies Of those who escape from set-„0
starvation.—(Hear, hear.) I cannot believe, whatever
I may think of our past policy, that a British Hottse,,e,
Commons will consent to adopt that painful alternatithe
—(Cheers.) I may be quite willing to admit thattreet
system of indiscriminate relief has the lamentable e".„i
of destroying the habits of self-reliance, of preventti,
the exertion of industry, of teaching men an
to work, and particularly Irishmen able to work, tl•
it is much better to rely on charity than on strentl°„,,
and continuous exertions for their own maintena, ,r1"O
Bat, granted that our policy in this respect has Pl'ol
wrong, what answer have we to make to the individn4o
sufferers ?—what answer have we to make to tbslr
whom we have taught to rely on charity and not on tbe,
own exertions ? If the policy be wrong we are rese
sible. 'Those who are now suffering from actual itun,,oo
iies
are not parties on whom we can with any justice ielbs
the penalty which belongs to our own policy. At 01
same time when we speak of the inipolicy of our PO5l
contributions for the maintenance of the poor, we 1334.
never forget that the country has been placed in a e,:ers
dition during the last three or four years to which t° r.)
is no parallel in the history of Europe.—(Hear, blot
The subsistence on which millions of people relied e,
for three or four successive years, contrary to boPer:
perhaps unwise hopes, contrary to rational ex t
pec_atte 4
been swept away. You have had millions throve vits
your hands, not from idleness, not from unwilling
to work, but in consequence of the failure ct:t„eil
species of food upon which they had exclas," to
relied ; and therefore we have been compelled
031 f a course which, had there been the opportaind,
of exercising a deliberate judgment, we should stnhi
ously have avoided. But then the people are taugh,4ir
our past example and our past conduct to rely for trPror
subsistence upon our benevolence and charity; and, 034
one never can consent, from whatever source aid
be derived, and whatever the ultimate consequeen
tag
teaching continued reliance upon it, instead of on t to
resources of industry—l for one never can consent le
adopt the horrible alternative of exposing those Pe
to death by famine.—(Cheers.) I therefore voted for
los
the 50,0001., and if there were no other means of Poo
viding aid, whatever other measures I might advise toil,
adopted tor the purpose of mitigating the future
ro,
and preventing such demands on the national resentaer
I don't hesitate to say I should give another vote °tiers
than leave those people to disease and start's olio
Updn that ground, under the present extra 2,
nary circumstances in which Ireland is 00700
shall give my vote for continuing some assistance to
other sources than the property of the uniontrt
those who administer relief to the poor in that con ere,
—(Hear.) The second question is, from what se°l3t,
shall that aid be derived? Now, I must say Irani- 011
think other parts of the empire have a fair right t,„° the
on Ireland for a strenuous effort to rescue us fr°7,
present difficulty.—(Loud Cheers.) I don't rest to., 0001
wand upon Ireland fur this strenuous effort on aen„a it
of the poor upon the ground that taxation in Reteats)
unequal as compared with this country.—(Hest' hared
It you rely upon the argument that Ireland as ccn!„tels
with England is unequally taxed, the conclusion woom to
logically you must adopt is—apply equal talatliot
ig
both.—(Bear, hear.) It is impossible to deny tobt to
the fair result. It lam satisfied that Ireland one co
bear the assessed taxes, and the duty on bricks Odd 005
or ought to be subject to the property-tax, Iv_entri°
consent to let Ireland off from her obligation to „ 0
bum equally with England to the public necessities, utioo
rate of 6d. in the pound charged on a certain deserfeetit
of property. I think that Ireland ought to make 'o'l the
effort to meet the tremendous evils arising outr_ this
o
present distressed condition of that country;
country when a union is manifestly. unable
sub)
the poor within it we adopt the principle of stl°).
the vicinage to the burden of contof'
say
to that object. We do not, in such a case, 7%5 Of
Ireland " Distress prevails in some of the tbeif
Devonshire and Cornwall, they cannot supPorti
poor, and therefore we call upon you, the people

s

lab6uring
local con-
ces of th 3
erto sub
ato, an
that roi
rting taa
ar, hear.)
examined

this view

how he
3, and his
upport the

t was.

►. Gentle-
it was;"
take the
Tome too
)tatoes, he
)1e to sup:

enough
Li., hear.)
ie name of
rity of the
?finite plan
and place
maintain
enormous
by the

country.
the capital
Milt them.
;charge a
f having
-rates, and
tst support
us doctrine
Blancism;
lo him the
pport the
talk of
d say that
br poverty
►mmunism.

for poor"
he Govern"
d an article
uce the es'
other. The
all into the
advantage,
7. These
Lord, svho
vith coming
vas for the
idequate to
qv not whet
might have
le Lord had
tate of OW
old be pros'
a, when the
rats on the
Id be intro'

t.
)me to the
'flies of this
don of par-
t in looking
destitution•
the painful
tion of pew
ipted frame.
the preFeot
ape torvinN

he oceasio?o
give it big