The Sun.
London, England, 1847-02-20 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 20, 1817.

would say, that if that distress had not existed, the Government
would have been bound to introduce this measure, in conse-
quence of the pledge given at the close of last session by her
Majesty's Government. The colonists of the \Vest Indies,
therefore, claimed this Bill as a right. If the present measure
were to be a temporary one, and only to last till next Septem-
ber, there would be no security whatever to the brewer, the
distiller, or the colonist, and the greatest amount of evil would
result from the speculation to which the measure would give
rise. He would explain to the House the operation
of the proposed measure. The duty on malt was
21s. 6d. per quarter ; the duty upon 180 lbs. of sugar, which
would be equivalent in yield to one quarter of malt, was 225. 6d.
He was not, however, quite sure but that from the improved
modes adopted by the brewers, he had reekuced 1801bs. of sugar
to an estimate much too low to be compared with a quarter of
malt. He believed that 200, or even 2101bs. of sugar was
nearer the mark. If, therefore, 18c11be. of sugar (taking the
lowest estimate), paid 225. 6d. duty, and one quarter of malt
paid 21s. 9d., it was clear that the Government would be a
loser to a trifling amount-9d. upon each quarter. He did not
think, however, that sugar could ever be substituted for malt,
except when malt was excessively high, or sugar exceedingly
low. Malt was from 87s. to 89s. per quarter, and already the
price of beer had been raised Id. per pot, at the rate of 25 per
cent., which to a labouring man was no small consideration.
Taking the price of malt at 845., deducting, however, from that
the sum of 2s. 6d. as allowance for grains, and the price of
1801bs. of sugar, at 755. 6d., it would cause a saving to the
brewer of the sum of els. upon each quarter, which to the
consumer would make a considerable difference. It was the
wish of the West Indians, that molasses should be admitted
equally with sugar for the purposes of brewing. The Govern-
merit, however, did net think it expedient to accede to those
wishes. The duty on molasses was ss. 9d., and if 2521b5. of
molasses equalled one quarter of resit, the duty would require
to be raised from ss. 9d. to 9s. 4d., in order to place them
upon the same footing. Molasses varied very much
in the amount of saccharine matter, and different
rates of duty would be required in order to make
it equivalent to the rate of duty now imposed ; and
great expense to the State and inconvenience to the brewer
would be caused by the Excise officers, whose supervision
would of course be required. Now, with respect to the use of
sugar in distillation : the present amount of duty levied upon
spirits equalled a sum of 5,200,0001. The great obstacle
hitherto to the use of sugar in distilleries has been the amount
of duty levied upon it. British spirit was produced from a
mixture consisting of 2 parts malt, 1 part oats, and 18 parts
of barley; and the spirit the result of that distillation was
7s. 10d. per gallon. It was now proposed that
the duty upon the sugar should be the same
as upon the spirits distilled from grain. In order
to carry this into effect, it was proposed that the dis-
, tiller should take the sugar out of bond, paying the duty upon
it, and when he paid his spirit duty an allowance should be
made to him equal to the difference of the sums he had paid
upon the sugar and the sum be would have had to pay upon
the malt. Now the quantity of spirit produced from sugar had
been proved by experiments made in the years 1799, 1812,
and 1831, by the excise officers themselves, and also by a most
em'nent chemist, that the yield of 1121bs. of sugar was equal
to Ili gallons of spirits at proof. Upon this IL} gallons of
spirits produced from 112Ibs. of sugar a drawback of 12s. 10d.
would be allowed, the duty upon that quantity of sugar would
be about 14s. in ordinary times, when the price of barley was
305., he did not think, therefore, that agriculturists would have
much cause for apprehending a diminished consumption of
barley. Believing that it was most expedient to pass the mea-
-1 sure without delay, he hoped the House would go at once into
Committee on the Bill.
Lord STANLEY hoped before he proceeded to comment on
the statement of the Noble Earl that he should not be consi-
dered disrespectful if he drew the attention of their Lordships
to a portion of the speech delivered by the Queen at the com-
mencement of the session. Her Majesty in her speech stated
" that it would be the duty of Parliament to consider what
further measures will be required to alleviate the distress," and
recommending Parliament " to take into its serious consider-
ation whether increasing for a limited period facilities for im-
porting the corn of foreign countries, and the admission of
sugar into breweries and distilleries, might not be beneficial."
It will not be denied, that when Parliament met, the inference
to be drawn from that recommendation was, that
her Majesty's Government would advise Parliament, with a
view to the mitigation of the existing distress, to adopt mea-
sures to promote a freer admission of corn tree of duty, and the
freer admission of sugar into breweries and distilleries ; and he
could not but repeat the regret which he had al-
ready expressed, that this Bill, unlike some of the others,
proposed for the purpose of alleviating that distress, should par-
take of a permanent instead of a temporary nature.-( Cheers.)
He was sure every one in that House would do him the jnstice
to say, that the temporary measures propounded by the Go-
vernment had not met, in that or the other House of Parlia-
ment,with any factious opposition, or that their progress had
been unduly retarded.-( Hear, hear.) He thought the Go-
vernment itself would admit that no disposition had been
shown to interrupt for a single moment the passing of mea-
sures which were proposed for the purpose of remedying
the distress that prevailed.-( Hear, hear.) The utmost
lie contended was this-that if his Noble Friend had intro-
duced this as a temporary measure there would have Wen no
occasion for discussion-no occasion for a Select Committee
to inquire into the merits of the provision. If they had
stated that it was a temporary measure brought forward for
the sole purpose of alleviating that distress, he was satisfied
that with respect to this and the other measures no opposition
would have been ffered.-( Hear, hear); but when he found
that it did not partake of a temporary character-that it was
not brought forward as a remedy for that distress-
or, rather brought forward under cover of that dis-
tress, for the purpose of altering a great portion of
our commercial policy, he did not think he went too far
in saying that the slight examination to which the Bill, if it
had been temporary, would have been subjected could be fol-
lowed, and that they should not do well to pass such a measure
without they had the fullest information as to the effect which it
would have upon the sugar producers of other countries, and
upon the barley growers of this. Another course was adopted
in 1795 and 1803, and upon many subsequent occasions, when
it was found that a sufficient quantity of grain could
not be obtained for the purposes of brewing and
distilling, as the measures brought forward at those
periods for allowing the use of sugar were tem-
porary. If the Government had come forward and said, as
other Governments had said In proposing similar measures, that
the stock of grain was small, and that it was desirable to econo-
mise the use of grain in ,breweries till the next harvest; he a
should not have opposed measure which propoacd to admit
sngar in breweries and distilleries in lieu of grain. No diffi-
culty would have been experienced in r btaining the sanction of
Parliament to such a measure. His Noble Friend had talked
about a pledge which was given to the West Indian interests
last year; but he (Lord Stanley) knew of no pledge, nor of
anything the Government had for making a pledge, that in
this session measures would be proposed for facilitating the
admission of their sugar into this country for brewing and
distilling. A pledge given at the end of last session that those
interests should receive the early attention of Parliament this
session was not tantamount to a pledge to bring forward such a
measure in this. But what he (Lord Stanley) said was-do
not let them take the necessity of this measure from the
Government ; but let them see whether they had justice and
policy on their side, and whether what was declared by them
to be a g-eat boon would not be found to be absolutely nugatory
and ineffectual, hut rather a boon to the foreign producer
of slave grown sugar.-(Hear, hear.) The West Indian
interests would gain nothing, as but a small portion of their
sugar would be imported, and the gradually diminishing rate
of duty upon all sugars would more and more bring producers
of slave-grown sugar into competition with West Indian sugar,
and with the producers of barley in this country. The Noble
Earl, in speaking of Canadian corn, alluded to a speech deli-
vered by him (Lord Stanley), in which he expressed an
opinion favourable to putting the producers of that corn on an
equal footing with the producers of corn at home. He had no
doubt that he stated, on behalf of the Government, that a
pledge had been given that the subject should receive conside-
ration in the interim, and that a motion, which was then be-
fore the House, was withdrawn on that understanding, but
when and where the pledge he had already referred to was
given he was at a loss to know.
Lord GREY said it was given in the House of Commons
during the progress of the Sugar Duties Bill.
Lord STANLEY proceeded to comment upon the state-
ment made by the Noble Earl that " restrictions upon trade
could not be permanently maintained, and that they could not
permanently place duties on. their own colonies," Now he
(Lord Stanley) thought the Government were, in speaking
thus, following a course, the progress of which they should
watch with jealousy. First of all, measures had beets passed for
abolishing the protection which the British agriculturists had
fur years enjoyed, using as an argument in faeour of it that a
measure to cheapen the price of sugar should follow it ; and
now the West Indian interests claimed a similar advantage.
He watched the measure with much jealousy Owing to what had
taken place during the last few weeks. At the commence-
ment of the session they were told that a temporary suspension
of the navigation laws was necessary. There was not a dis-
sentient voice to its passing as a temporary measure ;
but what followed? A motion was made in the
other House of Parliament on the ground that,
as all other restrictions had been removed, that the ship
owners had no right to maintain a monopoly; and that the
colonies had a right to receive their produce in the ships of
any nation ; but if the argument was received, and the propo-
sition were adopted, that protection which had made their navy
what it was, would bo swept away as an useless relic of former
times. But what course did her Majesty': Government
pursue? They gave the proposition their cordial support, and
consented to the appointment of a Committee. Sometimes
when a question was brought forward for examination on
account of the facts and figures involved the Govern-
tm
aneedn
Noble
thattol ibol
teuhgehLy to
cri
odt
slcdt oa nt
evodet r
s, iht eh:a
ttt
rot
eous
out the
rrtiehefetui
ospenrsawno
uu igenehqt:
finroyt
h.beeirA removedel
ot hl
oonuigehs,
by high duties, yet in the third clause of the Bill it appeared,
that if any brewer should make use of any molasses,
sugar. syrup, honey, except on what the duty had been
paid, or having them in his house, should be liable to a fine of
2001.-4 Hear, hear.) He did not say that that was an im-
proper restriction for the purposes of revenue, yet this was
consonant with their free trade notions.-( Hear.) If the
principles of free trade were to be held sacred, he saw no
reason why,at least, they should not be extended to home pro-
duce.-( Hear.) If the figures of the Noble Earl were cor-
rect, the measure could hardly alleviate the present distress, at
the present price of malt and barley. What he wished to urge
upon their Lordships was, that before they adopted
this principle that they should be satisfied by inquiries that
those calculations were correct. He almost despaired to make
the calculations intelligible, on which the expediency of the
measure was based. He said it had been assumed that 112 lbs.
of sugar were equivalent to eleven gallons and a-half of spirits,
but then, he went on to say, to find an equivalent in barley and
in malt you must examine what quantity of spirits they would
produce, and upon the fact of those quantities the correctness
of his calculations depended. The Noble Earl said he was
undecided whether a quarter of malt was equal to 180 lbs. or
200 lbs. of sugar, and yet on that difference, amount-
ing somewhere to about two gallons, one-tenth,
the Noble Earl, on these figures, was prepared
to bring these two commodities into close competition. He
said, however, he would argue on the assumption that 1801bs.
would produce that quantity. If he would refer to the evidence
adduced before a Committee in 1831, he would find most con-

tradictory statements. One gentleman said that a quarter of
malt ought to produce 181; another, that 18 gallons ought to be
produced from a quarter of the very best malt; and that he had
malted largely. and that the highest amount obtained was 18 gal-
ions from a quarter of malt, and that the lowest was 14, but that
the average was 16 gallons. The difference, therefore between 16
and 20 gallons was just the value of one •fifth of the article.
Another stated that eighteen gallons ought to be produced from
very superior barley malt. Mr. Ure, who was examined be-
fore the Committee, stated that the produce from the same
quantity was not eighteen, nor sixteen, but fifteen gallons.
If that were so, instead of making the comparison of
the Noble Lord, they would have to compare with 1601bs.
There would, therefore, be a difference of 401b5.,
on which had to be decided the nature of the
competition between those different articles. Where state-
ments were so varied, it was incumbent upon them to inquire
caytelf,eully into the statistics, before coming to a determination,
operation of such a measure coald not fail, ultimately,
to ix3*,
ire the agricultural and colonial produce, by the intro-
duction of forei
the experiment wgasa zdarotiawt h
iach tsmallhe duty. Government ile
rfoeul
ined fo
d when,r
the
measure, the price
success of this
of Ilavaunah sugar was 495.
Supposing on the
ealcuwliatison of the a quarter er
wasart correct, of
etNoble Earl, that
uthe calculatiZtrol the
f Exc
malt at 90ise Commis-
sga ue, malt 200 pounds of
sinners at 50d. 4d. was equivalent to the price of

per quarter, but until malt was at 40s , sager could
not be brought into competition with it. If that was
so, it disposed of the measure as a remedy for the present
distress, because at the present prices sugar could not be brought
into competition with malt and barley at the present time.
The Noble Earl had adopted, in point of fact, the principle of
the sliding scale. lie (Lord Stanley) was surprised to hear it.
He said that he would admit sugar practically, but that he
would admit it just in proportion to the rising or the falling of
the price of corn, and then passing over the operation of the
sliding scale, in other respects, he carne forward and told them
that they must adopt the measure, for the purpose of avoiding
the uncertainty in the prices of colonial produce. That un-
certainty being, according to the Noble Earl, dependent on the
fluctuating prices, in production of the article itself. He
would not then enter into that calculation, because it was not
a matter of discussion for that House ; it was a matter of dis-
cussioe for a Committee, where it could be examined and
tested and sifted, and if her Majesty's Ministers were correct
in their statement, he was sure that there would be no indis-
position on the part of those who advocated the principle of
protection for the country, and adopted the measure without
looking whether the result upon the manufacturing interest, or
the benefit of the colonies were likely to be derived from it was
better calculated. He wished to call the attention of the
House to the manner in which the Noble Earl thought
the colonies likely to be benefited by this measure. If the
colonies were to be benefited by this measure, the greatest
benefit to them must be the greatest rise in the price of sugar ;
but if a rise took place in the price of sugar—unless a large
and material rise—took place in the duty on other sugars, it
was impossible that the colonial produce could come into con-
sumption at all. The Noble Earl said that a very large in-
crease in the consumption of this country must benefit the
West Indies very much. But if any increase in the consump-
tion of sugar in this country would benefit the West Indian in-
terest, while the duties were low, and the duties on other pro-
duce remaining fixed, what hope was there of the slave-grown
produce being diminished? On the contrary, he believed, that
any increase in the consumption of sugar in this country, would
increase the consumption of slave-grown sugar also ; and if the
price of the sugar rose, while the duty of the slave-grown sugar
still remained fixed, the colonial produce could not come into
competition with it. In the course of the year 1844, the con-
sumption of sugar in this country was 206,000 tons.
In 1845, the consumption was 240,000 tons of
British sugar, and 3,E67 tons of foreign ; making
altogether 244,000 tons, as the consumption of the year 1845.
Supposing that the consumption of the last month of the year
1846 was a fair average for the remainder of the year, the total
consumption of sugar would have risen in 1846 from 244,000
tons to 266,000 tons. Was that for the advantage of the
colonial grower? The result was, that, of that amount, 244,000
tons in the first year-245,000 tons British and 3,867 tons
foreign ; and in the second year, 266,000 tons, the produce of
British possessions, that the foreign slave grown sugar increased
from 3,867 tons to 28,196 tons.—(Hear, hear.) Unless he
was wrongly informed, that increase was going on at the pre-
sent moment—for, during the first six weeks of this year—
where there were 27,000 tons of sugar introduced against
13,000 tons of the same period last year—there had been an
increase of 1,500 tons of British sugar as compared with last
year, whilst there has been an loci ease of 9,772 tons of foreign
slave-grown sugar. He stated as this, the result of one of their
late measures. That increase in the consumption of slave-
grown sugar being the result-of the opening of the ports to
sugar which had already taken place; but the stimu'us they
had given to the slave trade had not had time to work. It was
the surplus of former production which had now come in, and
it came in under a duty of 21s. against a duty of 14s. Let
them take the state of things three years hence—the year 1850.
The increased market for foreign slave-grown sugar would
then be in operation. They would have assisted cultivation,
extended the importation of slaves, and increased the produc-
tion—and that increased production would come in com-
petition with that of colonial growth. In 1850 they would
have an additional seven shillings per quarter in favour
of the foreign slave-grown sugar, and could it be doubted that
it would have the effect of increasing the consumption of slave-
grown sugar in this country? if it had any effect at all it
would be to i,erease the consumption of slave-grown sugar,
and the benefit would not go to the colonies but to the pro-
ducers in the Havannah and the Brazils. The Noble Earl
had referred to the case of the distilleries, and had told his
Noble Friend that when malt was at 60s. per quarter, it would
require sugar to be at 365. in order to render it possible to
make it come in competition. In the first place, that de-
pended altogether upon the question not only of the quality of
the spirit which was to be forced from the sugar—a question
which was altogether omitted from the consideration of her
Majesty's Government— but also on the amount to be extrareed
from one quarter of the malt. When the Noble Earl said
that 365. must be the price at which sugar must be in the market
to be introduced into this country, and at that price it further
appeared that out of the 365. a drawback of 124. 10d.
was to be received by the importer on the con-
version of the sugar into spirit, it was to be
received back in the shape of a dsawback—the most objection-
able of all modes of receiving it—which covered nearly the
whole amount of duty. It was a subject which (lid deserve
the consideratiun of a Committee, and it was most desirable
that the House should be satisfied of the prospect of a large
importation of sugar. The Noble Earl had quite forgotten
until then, to inquire whether the duty on sugar was as low as
it was at the present time, and now it was about to be still
lower than ever it had been. When the Noble Earl said that
sugar was never as low as 355, he (Lord Stanley) begged to
remind him that in 1830, Jamaica sugar was brought into this
market and sold for 435., paying a duty of 245., and a very
short time ago. Havannah auger which the Commissioners of
Excise declared to be 3 per cent. better than the ordinary run
of foreign sugar, was brought into this country at 21s. minus
the duty, so that a drawback of 12s. 10d. made it consumable
value about 225. 2d., so that even if the price of Jamaica
sugar, which was 19s. minus the duty, were raised 2s.
higher than it was in 1835, the price of sugar would he 22s 10.,
instead of 365., as stated by the Noble Earl. He was net pro-
posing to their Lordships to reject this Bill. If it were a tem-
porary measure, and he could see in it a prospect of relief, he
would say, " Adopt it at once, and make no inquiry," but if
they were asked and invited to take this measure avowedly in
the course of free trade, and as one cf the measures in the
course of free trade policy to which they_ must come, and
through which they must adopt measures which' Would' lead
still farther, because it was impossible to continue any restric-
tion upon trade—if they were invited to take this course, which
would have a permanent effect upon their commercial policy,
he would say—do not take this step blindfold ; do not take it
upon the statement of the President of the Board of Trade.
All he aked was, that the House should examine into it, by
the evidence of competent witnesses, who would to the best of
' their judgment show—not for present purposes, but ultimately
arid permanently—the effect of the measure upon the intei est
of the sugar cultivation in the West Indian colonies, and upon
the slave grown and produce of Cuba. He asked that they
should adopt measures which would satisfy their own minds
as to the effects which would he produced by this Bill, and
then vote for it—if they ultimately decided upon voting for it
as a permanent measure—with thee- eves open. That was all
he proposed, all he askel from their ardships, that they shouls;
legislate on this important question with satisfaction to the
public and with satisfaction to themselves; that they should
examine not only the papers produced by the -officers of the
excise, however credible and worthy they might be, but that
they should inquire from other sources to satisfy themselvesthat
they were not doing mischief where it was their earnest desire to
do good, and that they were not injuring the cultivation of the
colonies under the plea of relieving a temporary distress,
which the measure, as he was convinced, would not do. He
asked that they should not do mischief upon the plea of grant-
ing a boon to the colonies, which the Bill would not do, and it
was upon these grounds, and not professing any opposition or
hostility to the measure, but merely with a desire to be satisfied,
that he invited their Lordships to refer this Bill, not to a
Committee of the whole-House, but to a Select Committee,
where this facts might be investigated carefully, stated with a
tolerab:e certainty, and where a deliberate judgment could be
come to as to the probable effect of the measure.—( The No-
ble Lord sat down amidst loud cheers, but rose again immedi-
ately, and moved that the Bill be referred to a Select
Committee. )
Earl GREY said that he could not help thinking, from the
speech of his Noble Friend who had just sat down, that he
(Lord Stanley) had a very bad cause indeed ; because he knew
so well his Noble Friend's ingenuity, that whenever he saw
him during the greater part of his speech altogether leaving
the great question before the House, and entertaining their
Lordships with very ingenious and acute arguments upon
points which hail nothing to do with the real merits of the mea-
sure, he felt very certain indeed that his Noble Friend had a
consciousness in his mind that the cause which he was defending
was a bad and a rotten one. 'their Lordships would recollect
the course of his Noble Friend's speech, and they would per-
ceive how completely, in the greater part of it, he had avoided
the real merits of this case. He had entered upon an argument
at some length, and read a passage from her Majesty's speech
at the opening of the session, for the purpose of proving that in
that speech this measure was introduced to Parliament as a
measure intended to relieve a temporary distress, and, there-
fore, not to be a permanent one. On that point he had only
to say, that whatever might be the construction which the words
were capable of bearing, the intention which the passage of the
speech conveyed was well known ; becau'c some explanat on on
the point was sought by his Noble Friend on the first night of
the session, and it would be in the recollection of their Lord-
ships who were present at the time, that it was stated distinctly
that this measure, with respect to the introduction of sugar in
breweries and distilleries was intended to be a permanent one.
His Noble Friend had commented at some length on this very
subject, and had objected to that course. He, therefore, ad-
mitted his Noble Friend's view of the Royal speech so far,
and what was the result ? merely that her Majesty's Ministers
in the wording of the Queen's speech, had not shown them-
selves very skilful ine composition - (Loud laughter.) That
was the whole result of the long and elaborate argument of his
Noble Friend. His Noble Friend had alio endeavoured to
alarm the House, with regard to the measure itself, and had
objected to the dangerous policy to be pursued in the present
instance, and referred to the pledge given by the Government
upon this Bill in the other House. The Chancellor of the
Exchequer, in the other House, had stated that it was im-
possible,usoo ans tt eb
benefit
considerationtab tetthheenß periodrliattoiesfht
colonies.hthis
c omfp
_ltheieTa
The
complicated
spsiqieoudneg,setti
question,
:eenantne
bdr
yfputr!
pro-
mised to place sugar upon an equality with corn in distilleries,
Government had not bound the House, but it had bound the
Government. When on the other side of the House, they had
given it out as their conviction that duties should only be im-
posed as with a view to increasing the revenue, and not
to turn industry and capital from their natural sources.
But his Noble Friend said that the appointment of this Com-
mittee was getting themselves into the position of the fine
edge of the wedge. Did that not mean that they had not
understood the subject. But, further, he thought that he did
hear something of the hostile intentions of the Committee. He
the more 'believed that he was right in this opinion, because he
had hear his Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack 'say,
" Oh that gives us a clue to what will be, and, therefore, I
pre-
sume,
this Select Committee is a convenient instrument for
rejecting the measure to which we are asking you to assent."
But what were the grounds on which the Committee was asked ?
What were the legitimate grounds of this inquiry ? What
were the principles which they believed ? They considered
that the sugar of their colonies ought to come into consumption
subject to no impositions save what the safety of the country
required. If required for distillation or brewing, they ought so
to arrange it that no more bias would be left on the minds of
distillers or brewers than in the case of there being no tax
levied at all. If their object was to raise a revenue, then they
should so impose a tax that they would not in any degree give
a greater bias than if no tax had been levied at all. They did
not require a Committee to ascertain if this was a good
principle or a had one. He maintained that the erinciple was
carried out. His Noble Friend made as curious a confusion
between malt and raw grain as he had between sugar and
molasses, arid he had got far beyond his (Lord Grey's) depth,
although he had tried to follow him. The reason he believed
he could not follow him was because that there was some

confusion in his own mind, but if he followed his Noble
Friend's argument it would resolve itself into simply this__
would it answer the purpose of the brewer or distiller to use
sugar er not ? That was a question with which they had
nothing to do. That was a question for the manufacturer to
determine. All they had to do was to take care that the

revenue was so conducted that the manufacturer should not
be injured, at the same time that the public would be bene-
fited. This measure would be of the greatest importance
as giving a security in a spare season, by pre-
venting the u,e of malt in distilling, while it
prevented sugar falling to ruinously low prices. The tendency
of the measure would be to give an equalisation of prices.
They knew that the smallest quantity of sugar that was
capable of yielding an equal amount of spirit with a quarter of
malt, was 180 lbs. The malt paid a duty of 11. Is. Bd., while

the sugar paid 11. 6d., so that this measure on the most
unfavourable calculation they could take, would not give the
smallest advantage or abatement of the tax on sugar, and if
they took sugar on its real calculation of 2JO lbs. to the quar-
ter of malt, it would, instead of 1/.ls. Bd., pay a tax of 11. 55.,
therefore, in this respect, there could be no partial duty. The
question was one of such perfect equality that it would
be in vain to refer it to a Committee. With respect
to spirits it was equally clear, and ho did not think
that any man had ever maintained that the drawback on sugar
was more than was necessary, in order to put distillers in
sugar, and distillers in malt, on an equal footing ; he said there
was no doubt that they had, as nearly as possible, equalised the
burdens on these classes of manufacturers. Now, he never
recollected a case in which a matter oglathis kind was referred
to a Select Committee. The practice was, that the Govern-
ment for the time, acting fairly towards all parties, should
make some proposal to Parliament ; if they were wrong, their
views were contested, and the House divided ; but if they ap-
pealed from their views, they should appeal to one of the
Houses of Parliament, and not to a Select Committee. A
Chancellor of the Exchequer, he forgot which it was, but in a
proposal
of this kind, one of the Chancellor's of the Ex-
chequer said, that he would never consent to have
his office put in commission. If his Noble
Friend thought that their calculations were wrong
he might have prop. sed an amendment, and the question
would have been fairly discussed, and they on that side of the
House would have been prepared to defend their own. He
would remind their Lordships that his Noble Friend wished
them to go into a sort of fishing Committee, in order to discover,
if possible,lsome error which was not before them. He only said,
,• you are wrong," but he did not tell them where they were
not right. He (Earl Grey) confidently appealed to their Lords
ships not to assent to a course which was unusual, not to say
inconvenient. There was one point in his Noble Friend's ar-
gument which excited in his mind so much surprise that he
must advert to it. He (Lord Stanley) said " this he supposed
was a measure fur the advantage of the colouies, but the
colonies knew nothing about it. He (Lord Grey) presented
petitions from the West ladia planters, and his Noble Friend
beside him presented similar petitions from the China Associa-
tion in favour of this measure, yet his Noble Friend said they
knew nothing about it. He said that the measure was for the
benefit of the slave sugar grower. Their Lordships might
remember that by the provisions of the Bill passed last session,
the duty upon slave grown sugar would be reduced every year
till, at the end of five years, the duty upon slave grown and
colonial sugar would be equalized, and during that period the
proposed measure would operate in favour of the colonial
planters. There was advantage to be gained from the
extension of competition. This was a proposition so
plain that it could hardly bear argument. He could
not help saying that his Noble Friend, when he
said "competition in sugar would be injurious to
the colonial planter." He entertained the most confident belief
that the British colonists would be enabled to reduce the prices
of sugar, and he could not help expressing the greatest satis-
faction at the evidences which were afforded them, both in the
West Indies and in the Mauritius, of the tendencies on the part
of the planters to introduce a better mode of cultivation and
generally improving their system of grorriug, SU as to increase
the amount of their produce. These improvements were pro•
gressive in Jamaica, Trinidad, Antigua, and in almost the
whole of the colonies. The planters were beginning to see
the identity of the species, and they were commencing to im-
prove the condition of the negro. He believed that the crop
which was now in course of coming to the markets of this
country would turn out greatly superior to former crops; and
in proof of the progressive improvement, he might instance
the imports within the last few years. In the year 1845 the
imports amounted to 45,000 tons • in the year 1846 the state-
ment was 50,000 tons ; and at the present time there were in
course of being sent to this country 60,000 tons, being an in-
crease of one-fifth on the produce of last year, or 15,000 tons
on that of 1845. For these reasons he would reject the amend.
ment of the Noble Lord.
Lord ASHBURTON totally objected to the course of legis-
lation adopted on this subject. The negroes in the British
colonies, with an inferior soil, were expected to cope with the
cheap labour and better soil of Cuba and the
Brazils, and the result would naturally be, that the
British colonists would he driven out of the markets.
They were seeking to reduce the price of a small article
of consumption, by sacrificing the interest and lives of
hundreds and thousands of individuals. There never was a
subject which demanded more of their Lordships' consideration
than this, because the measure itself depended upon evidence
and calculation. It would lead to the introduction of the
worst kinds of sugar into breweries, and thus it would have the
additional effect of stimulating the slave-trade. It was rather
irosonsistent for them to be spending large sums of money in
attempts to suppress the slave-trade, while they were directly
stimulating it in another way.
Lord MONTEAGLE wished to explain the vote he was
about to give, because he did not wish it to go abroad that he
was supporting a measure of the serious character represented
by the Noble Lord. Whatever might be its effects upon the
evenue, it had become absolutely necessary that sugar should,
fur the present, be introduced into breweries, but really its
effect upon the sugar market would be so insignificant, that it
was not worth while instituting any inquiry into that branch
of the subject. Its effect upon the market, it had been de-
monstrated, would be infinidecimally small. In saying thus
much, however, he did not wish to commit himself upon the
measure for the reduction of the duty or, rum. There he
thought an inquiry was necessary, and, when that Bill came
before them, he should vote accordingly.—( Hear.)
The Duke of RICHMOND said it had been urged that this
measure would confer no very material benefit upon any class,
and that in his opinion was a sufficient reason for inquiry. In
his opinion the measure would produce injury rather than
good. The Noble Lord, who had just sat down, had told them
that there was a Bill about to come up to that House that he
was anxious should be inquired into, because it was based
upon erroneous calculations. Now, these two Bills came
from the same shop, and if the one was wrong
he had a right to suppose that the other was too.
Last session the agricultural party had been deceived,
with the free-trade measure, and it was the duty of their
Lordships to see that they were not deceived again.—( Hear.)
The manly declaration of his Noble Friend now at the head of '
the Board of Trade admitted as much, and he must be allowed
to say that he better liked a fair and manly opponent than an
insidious friend.-411eai; hear.) It was the duty of their
Lordships not to allow any measure to pass without a full and
ample ittquiry into its details, or the agricultural party might
be victimised again.—(llear, hear.) If they wanted to give
the people good wholesome beer, let them get rid
of the malt-tax.—(Hear.) A partner of Mr. Whitbread in
his evidence given before the committee which sat upon this
subject said, beer made from sugar was wretched stuff, and the
only way to make it good and wholesome was to manufacture
it from English malt and hops. He asked whether the parti-
sans of that measure would go to the hustings and say to the
people, " We promised you cheap bread, but rhea ) bread yod
have not got ; but now we promise you cheap beer ;" and some
poor man, more daring than his neighbour, would taste this
cheap beer, which would half poison him and all his boon com-
panions.—( Laughter.) He thought that Parliament had been
for some time in the habit of passing measures which ulti-
lmitatlteelysatisifnactiothneitro the, country, in ,y, by
their defects, gave
consequence of passim,
measures with little inquiry, or with no inquiry at all, and they
might expect by and bye that the country would not respect the
measures of Parliament at all. He begged to be understood
that he did not give his vote for going into Select Committee
for the purpose of defeating the Bill, and he hoped that the
Noble Lords who agreed with him would get. credit for it, that
it was no intention of theirs to defeat the Bill by the Com-
mittee which had been moved for; indeed, if the Noble Lord
in that Committee should make out the case which he had pre-
sented, he (the Duke of Richmond) would support the Bill,
but he certainly would like to know, before the Bill passed into
operation, that the effect of it would not be to poison half the'
people.—( Laughter.) Much had been said on the other side
etinenar(no
reil s a
n of_
ile interests. He and his Noble Friends did not act as the
free traders bad done in reference to the navigation laws,
mostsatisfactory
o
hr e inquiry
public
thelie
hi
ba beou not of
puttingthis
objection last,o
fft
o ftdheefaelrlr
ing Bill
; but surely in the
casethemeasures, there could
for two or three days,
or even a week. He had always been the advocate
ttf heo
nre
di
enpnge
conypi rl
tyeo—, ausi
rna
stqheutaittrl
eyw which
et
p those wuabsle
mind subjects
on great
with minds hostilely set against these laws. They moved for
this Select Committee in a friendly spirit, believing if it were
granted that it would assist the manufacturing interests of the
country, and certainly not destroy the maritime supremacy of
the nation, and render her a secondary power in Europe.
Lord BEAUMONT said, in rising to address their Lord-
ships, he was convinced most distinctly that this Bill would
either effect the intended object, or certainly that it could pro-
duce no harm. H was rather inclined to think that any
effect it should produce would be very small, if it produced any
at all. But he could not suppose that it would at all injure
any colonial interests. If he were called upon to produce any
a •
argument in support of this, f this, and against the amendment, he
would instance the speech made by the Noble Lord who had
moved for the Select Committee. That. Noble Lord
had moved for it in a speech not only exhausting the
principles of the
general subject, but exhausting
it in the details. He would give the Noble Lord credit for
his statements and his calculations, as correct. The Noble
Lord, however, who followed put forward calculations which
varied from those considerably, for his figures were from 180
to 210. But on whatever calculations the Noble Lord rented,
he was.conv'nced that sugar would never come into competi-
tion with barley, for sugar used in distilleries would only be
used in assistance to the inferior qualities of barley. In the
Committee on the subject last year, it was given in evidence
that there was no market for the inferior qualities of barley,
and therefore sugar coming into use as an assistance would
rather be in favour of than against the sale of barley. But
this Bill, which was of little or no importance, was one which
would produce little effect, and certainly one which would pro-
duce no harm. He acknowledged that the Bill was bat a part
of a consequence and a chain of measures some of them already
passe, and some
d of them vet to follow.—( Hear, hear.) He
always had maintained that when they had passed that first
step, by repealing the corn-laws, it would be an injustice to
stop short of free trade in full. If their Lordships had adopted
a principle they must carry that out into all the ramifications of
free trade; the Sugar-duties Bill was a necessary sequence to
the Corn Bill. The abolition of differential duties was a
matter of mere justice to the colonies after the repeal of the
duties en corn ; and this Bill was a just consequence, and if the
colonies demanded it their Lordships could not refuse it. He
doubted not but that after the excise duties had been con-
siderably reduced on manufactured produce as well
'as agricultural produce, that those sties that should be ure-
tained, such as the malt-tax, which was a burden on land,
would come forward more prominently than ever.
The Marquis of SALISBURY said he had been the mover
for the Committee last year to consider the burdens on land, and
he begged to remind their Lordships that the inquiry into the
effect of the malt-tax, which he considered a burden upon land,
was interrupted before they had well entered into it. This,
therefore, he thought was the time for getting that inquiry
resumed, and it ought not to be lost. The Noble
Lord then proceeded in a very few sentences, which
were almost inaudible in the gallery, to contend for the reduc-
tion of the malt tax, as a compensation for the object proposed
by the present Bill.
Lord REDESDALE said the principle of the Bill before
their Lordships was not the principle of free trade, for that
principle was contradictory to prohibition, produced by excess
in duty on one article • but now, in this case, there would be
an excess of duty, and it would be against the British pro-
ducers, the refiners of sugar. He believed that for the pur-
poses of brewing, malt and sugar might be reduced to equality
in duty without bad effects ; but, as in the case of spirits, sugar
would not come into competition with malt, he contended that
it would become prohibitory if they should relieve sugar and
have the duties on malt. He contended, therefore, that the
effect would be to produce a prohibition against the British
producer.

The Marquis of WESTMEATH said that he felt it his
duty to vote against the motion of the Noble Lord. He could
not lend himself t• any measure calculated to embarrass the
present Government, who had taken office under very peculiar
circumstances in their financial Inca tires. Upon all those
questions relating to Ireland, on which he thought himself
better informed than the Government, he would reserve to
himself the liberty of voting as he thought proper.
Their Lordships then divided on the original motion, when
there appeared—

Contents
Non-Contents 27
Maorit..
The Bill then went j
throuy gh.. Ceramittee withoutB
amend-
mentE.

DISTILLING FROM SUGAR BILL.

This Bill also passed through Committee without amend.
ments.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE laid upon the table of the
House several returns relating to the state of Ireland.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 19.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
LONDON (CITY) SMALL DEBTS BILL.
Mr. MASTER MAN moved the second reading of thiS
Bill.

Mr. BODKIN' moved the adjournment of the second
reading for a week or ten days. This Bill proposed to ex-
tend to the city of London the provisions of the Act passed
last session for the recovery of small debts. The judge to
be appointed under this Bill had not been appointed, in
consequence of the existing differences between the Court
of Aldermen and Common Council, and he thought it much
better to postpone the consideration of this Bill until
some adjustment of the differences had taken place.
After a few words from Mr. MASTJtRMAN and Mr.
WARBURTON, strangers were ordered to withdraw; no
division, however, took place, and the Bill was read a
second time.