The Sun.
London, England, 1812-03-03 00:00:00

DRURY-LANE THEATRE BILL.

Lord HtLLAND moved"the second reading of the
Bill, for amending the A.at of last Session respelling
Drury-lane Theatre.
On the question, a short conversation arose be-
tween his Grace of NORFOLK, and the Noble
Mover.

The first mentioned Peer expressed his opinion,
that the measure was one that required much con,
sideration. No one could be more aware than he
was of the great advantages of a well-regulated
Theatre in a civilized stag; it not only promoted
civilization and refinement, but even went to im-
prove and ameliorate the mor.ils of the people. But
if not well regulated, it might have a contrary
effed. He thought the interval between the first
(which only took place on Friday last) and the se-
cond reading by far too short, greater time should
be allowed. Not only the principle of the Bill re-
quired sotne consideration, but some of the enact-
ing clauses, he thought, should be. materially alter-'
ed, to render them wotthy the adoption of the
House. He therefore proposed to amend his Noble
Friend's Motion, by inserting, instead of the word
" Now," as for the second reading, the' words
" Tuesday, 10th of March."

Lord HOLLAND strongly deprecated any unneces-
sary delay in the progzess of the measure, which
would tend to defeat the objeets for which it was
intended. He reminded his Noble Friend and the
ki.use, that, the priucille of the Bill had'heeti fully
lecognised by the Legislature in tfe Att of last Ses-
sion ; that the present Bill was in fact no more than
a proposed extension olsthe time and powers allow-
ed by that Ad. As circumstances had rendered it
necessary and expedient, and as his Noble Friend's
objettions seemed to lie principally against some of
the enactments of the Bill, the Committee, he must
be aware, was the proper place for such discussions.
He thought- it. preferable not to delay the second
reading.

Both these Noble Peers spoke in explanation.
The Noble Duke persisting in his Amend-
ment, a division took place, whe❑ there appeared
for the immediate

Second reading - - - 13
Against it - - . 6
Majority - -

A few observations were afterwards made, on the
question t4eing put as to the day of Commitment,
by- Lord ,RED-LSDALE and she LORD CHANCELLOR,
both these Noble and Learned Lords st:eming to
think the measure one that required some consider-
ation ; and tha► as some difference of sentiment ap-
peired as ►o the enaaments, some interval should
be ()Bowed between the second reading aoal the
commitment of the Bill.

This meeting the sense .of the House, the Bill

Earl GROSVENOR, in Warm and decided language,
expressed his strong disapprobation of the measure.
It was his intention to move to discharge the order.
In viewing ►he subje&, the Noble Earl frequently
glanced at sonic prominent parts of the conduct of
his Majesty's Government, especially the effects of
the Orders in Council, as the more effectual, though,
remote causes of the distress of which the poorer
orders of the Manufacturers complained. He par-.
ticularly censured the severity of the measure, which
went to initial the sanguinary penalty of death
upon what, he said, may tie only an entry into a
house. He trusted their Lord,hips would not suf-
fer themselves to be persu ,ded by Ministers into a
concurrence in an Any, which would he a disgrace
to the Statute-Book, to the character of ►he coun-
try, and which, instead of removing the evil, wil:(1
increase it, by more widely diffusing the- mischief,
and driving thtkunhappy depredators to ads of des-
peration. •

The Marquis of DOUGLAS could not let the op-
portunity pass without offering his marked opposi-
tion to the Bill. He deemed it a most arbitrary and
cruel measure, and which was by no means called
for by the necessity of the case. The principle
which should guide wise Legislators on such occa-
sions was to provide for -the prevention, rather than
effectuate tne punishment of Crimes; it was not the
severity of the punishment that deterred from the
commission of crime, but the certainty of punish-
ment being inflicted. He thought, with the Noble
Earl, that the excessive" severity of the punishment
would eventually tend to induce greater acts of cri-
minality, and he regretted that it should be thought
proper to visit those with extermination, who wet:;
'driven to such 'misconduct by a want of bread, or
the means to suPport existence. He conceived also
another ill effect it would have—to augment the
manufacturing machinery throughout the kingdom.
• The Earl of HARROW/BY argued ably and at some
length in su;port of the Bill. He pressed -to the
consideration of their Lordships, that the dangerous
and destrudive practices which the Bill was meant
to suppress, were now extending tapidiy to other
parts of the country, and that a speedy and vigorous
remedy had become absolutely necessary. The
exertions of the police and the existing laws were.
found insufficient: The measure seas, however,,
consonant to that which had been the course and
Condud of the Legislature on former occasions near-
ly similar, in (hat-of the Woollen Manufacturers for
instance, when, in the •14111 of Gef,rge the First,
punishment of death was provided for that which
pre iously was orly visited with a slight punishment,
Noble Lords (3,l;rosite were pleased to characterize
the measure in very harsh language, and to ,c3ll its
authors sanguinary and bloody winded; but they
were such bloody minded men as the Eirl 01 Hxd-
wicke, and afterwards Lord Talbot, both which
great and good men approved of the measures to
which be alluded. When the middle system was
inefficient, it was justifi-rble, it was necessary to re-
cur to measures of severity when called fur by cir-
cumstances and to leave the pradical.application
of that severer s)stem, as particular cases and cir-
cumstances may call for it. Upon these grounds
and principles, the measure proceeded, pi-111014,s
which more than once, on former occasions, govern-
ed the determinations of the British Legislature. •
Tine Earl of CARLISLE shortly but strongly con-

demned the Bin. He was decidedly averse to any
at tending to take array the lift of a fellow-crea-
ture--t proceeding which could only he justified by
the strongest and clearest necessity. In this view,
it was incumbent on Ministers to seew 'hit every
exertion had been made under theexisting laws, be-
fore they recurred te Parliament for measures of ex-
treme severity. And he was apprehensive the pre-
tent Bat, instead of facilitating detection, would
greatly increase the eifficulty of it.
Earl of WESTMORELAND. supporti-d the Bill,
and vindicated the conduct of Government in acting,
-with- every precticable vigilance and exertion to re-
store tranquility and order, ere they recurred to Par-
liament for the present measure. His Lordship lob.
lowed the line of argument adopted by his Noble
Friend, who spoke last but one, as to the gentled
principle .upon which the measure proceeded ; and
be was convinced the law under the Bill would be
administered with a discriminaeng lenity, and
fully aced upon only when the necessity of toe case
required it. The measure, therefore, had hiscordiel.
support.
•Lord GRENVILLE spoke at considerable length
against the Bill, and enforced many of his former
arguments. The leading principle of Ministers
should be- not to provide in what manner, the corns
mission of crimes should be punished, but how that
commission should be prevented. lii considering
this, they should recur to the system, governing and
commercial, which they had adopted for. the last five
years; they should consider what
.were the inevit-
able effects of a depreciated 'paper circulation, the
issue of which they confided, not to a commercial,
but to a banking body, who were not bound to
consult any thing but their own interests. He
entered iota some 'detail upon what he con-
ceived to be the injurious effeats of such a
system of currency, which in the end would
lead to a Maximum, and which at present operated
equally eu the injury of the working and the em-
ploying, manufacturer, especially in the case of those
maeufattures destined for foreign consumption.-
1-he deprecated any enlargement of the Penal Code,
the complexion of which . was already too sangui-
nary, and beyond that of any countreein Europe.
Al the same time, he was aware, that, with respect
to a nterctful and upright adaiinistiation of justice,
this country far transcended every other. It was
not the frequency of the offence, but the enormity
of the crime that called for extreme punisement.—
How that principle could apply to the occasion in
question, the House a ould judge. On viewing the
tletailed provisions of the B 11, and the application
of the capital punishment, the . measure, he con-
tended, was severe in the extreme; and if this last
degree tif punishment could not bn.r. justified by the
necessity of the case, it could riot stand upon any
other grounds. The page of the Statute book, he
repeated, was already too much etained by sangui-
nary provisions, and this would add to thuSe blots
upon the character of the country's humanity.—
Want) his Nole'e Friends, he believed, the measure
'week! have an effect directly contrary to that pro-
po::ed, and so deeming of it, he would certainly
vote for any moCon tending to delay the Proccechng
of tire night.
The Earle)! LIVERPOOL coeceived teat the Noble
Baron had misuncerstood the nature of the argu-
ment of his Noble,. Friend. It was never intended
to deny that the manufacturers had experienced dis-
tres. All that hi 4 Noble Frieme had said was, t hat
the Orders in Council were not the cause of the
present state of things, and the whole of his argu-
ment went to slice., that since the existence of the
Orders, trade had been more prosperous than at any
an,tecedent period. There is no difference of opi-
nion that the great increase of commerce some years
back .would have the effect of creating a glut which
%A•ould not be immediately felt, but there could be
na doubt that in subsequent
,years trade must in con-
sequence experience distress: In 1 606, 7,8, and 9,
in which years there were considerable speculations
Carried on, the tiade not being a natural one, pro-
duced subsequently bid effects, which never was the
case when fairly carried on. The Noble Baron was
mistaken in•supposieg the distress arose from the
present state of things; it had existed in all times,
both in peace and in war, according to circumstances.
The Noble Secretary denied that the distress was to
be imputed lo the depreciation of the paper cur-
rency. With respect to the causes which led to the
scenes now under censideration, they were asssign-
able to the spirit of opposition, which net only in.
this district but in many others, the manufacturers
leave to the introduction of machinery, which they
imagine lightens labour.• The various Statutes now
on t he book were evidence to that point. Hewas anxious
that it should not go forth that his Noble Friend had
said, that there war; not any .apparent distress. All
that he had denied was, that the causes assigned
were not rite true causes. Tire objections which
had been urged to making the offence of conspir-
ing punishable with death, were fitter for discussion
in the Committee—the general principle of the B II
had not been objected to. The iaaeble Secretary
then quoted a pass le from Dr. Pelee', to strew, that
in framing these laws, the intent was nor'to pettish
the offeeder for his guilt ; but by affixing the pe-
nalty of death to prevent the crime, which if not
puni4tect would be most detrimental to the State.—
an the cases respecting hore-stealing, •sheep•steal-
inge and Inghway-cobbery, the single offence was
never punished with death.; that punishment was
only inflicted when the cases were aggravated, and
that discretion se ould 'be best left in the breast of
the Judge. It might be asked, was it right to give
that descretion ? T. that he would answer, that
the Legislature bad often so' decided, and expe-
ristrice had shown that not one case out of one hun-
dred was punished with death under the circum-
stances he had referred to. It was the principle of
the law ; whether right or wrong he would not now
discuss, but that principle he had no wish to -break;
it was a principle of flinch virtue and of little vice—
a principle white!) would not, he was convinced, lead
to a sanguinary execution of the law. He would
therefbre rather—

" Bear the evils which he could ascertain,

Than fly to others he knew not."
'lle Earl of 110S5LYN opposed the Bill, on the
grounds stated by the former 'Noble Lord.
The question was then put, and negatived.

The House then went into Committee on the
Bill, in which Lord Grentilie proposed to amend
the Clause, intli6ting the pdnishment of death for
inirly ion of crime, by omitting the word " Person,

After some observations from the Lord Chan-
cellor and Lard-Holland, this amendment was ne-i
g •tived.
The rrtnaining Clauses were, after some dis-
cussion, agreed to, and the- report ordered to be
received to-morrow.--Adjourned at Ten o'Clock.

ROUSE OF COMMONS.

MONDAY, MARCH 2.

The Vauxhall Bridge Bill was read a second time,
and oidcred be committed.

General MATHEw, atter a few observations on the
neeessiti of Catholic Emancipation, and on the bi-
gwry,,intolerance, &c. of Ministers, presented a Pe-
tition from the inhabitants of Tipperary, praying re-
lief for the Catholics. The Petition was read, and
ordered to lie on the table.

Mr. WHAtiToN brought in the Qqalificition In-
demnity Bill, which wai read a first, and ordered
to be read a second time to-morrow.

Sir S. .ROMILLY brought in a Bill to repeal an Adi
Of the 39th of Elizabeth, punishing Soldiers and
Sailors for begging, as for felony. Read a first
and ordered to be read a second time on Thurs-
day.
Accounts of the Annual Receipts and Disburse-
ments of the West India Dock Company were pre-
sented and ordered to lie on the table.

A Messag4 fro:n the Lords informed the House,
that their Lordships had given leave to Lord Gren7;
ville to attend the Committee on American Claims.
It also announced their assent to certain Bills (for
which *ee Lords).
.The motion for information respe&ing the Con-
vias sent from the Huiks io set ve in the Army and
Navy, was postponed till Thursday.
Sir J. NEWPORT postponed the Committee of the
whole HOuse on the Irish Population Bill to Mon-
day, April 13th.
MR. WALSH.

On the motion of Mr. BANKES, the Older of the
House for the attendance of Mr. Walsh this day
was read.

The SPEAKER direeted a Messenger to be called
in to prove that the Order of the House bad been
served on Mr. Walsh.

Mr. Skelton (a Messenger) was theft examined.
He stated the Order to have been served by him on.
Mr. Walsh, on Friday, at two o'clock.
SPEAKER—On whom-did you serve the. Order of
the Mouse ?—A. On Mr. Walsh.
SPEAKER—On Mr. Walsh himself ?—A. On Mr.
Wal,ll himself.

The SPEAKER said the Serjeant was informed a
medical gentleman was then in waiting to prove that
Mr. Walsh was incapable of attending in his place
from indisposition. `Vas it the pleasure of the
House that he-should be called in ?
The House assented.

Mr. CORNWELL REYNOLDS was then called in,
and examined. In answer to the questions put to
him, be stated himself to De aaquainted with Mr.
Walsh. He had been called upon to attend him on
Saturday last. He had been in the habit of attend-
ing Mr. Walsh some years ago, but not latterly, till
be was called upon to atteud hint on Saturday last.
He bad last seen Mr. Walsh about " two hours ago."
He (Mr. Walsh) was incapable of attending, front
the state of his inind; rattier than from bodily in-
clispoiition. He thoualit there was reason to hotx
that Mr. Walsh would be able to attend within a
little time. At present he laboured under mental
derangement. SO= few years ago, he had seen
Mr. Walsh, at which time be appeared to be men-
tally deranged. According to his judgment, it was
probable that in about a fortnight Mr. Walsh would
be able to attend in his vlice, sound in body and
mind. He-could not positively say whether or not
the apprehension arising flout an order to attend
that House would again reduce him to that state in
which he was at pr-!sent. Mr. Walsh harb been
very much gra-led by the apprehensions raised by
the order to attend in his plate, which had been
served on him. When speaking on the subject, he
(Mr. Walsh) was so much agitated, that he could
only speak in an incoherent manner, as was fre-
quently unable to give utterance to when I.e wished
to say. He (the witness) had not been called on to
attend Mr. Walsh previous to the trial, nor had he
seen him about that time. He had not seen Mr.
Walsh since the trial, till Saturday last, %viten he at-
tended him in consequenett of a letter which he had
received. That letter, lie believed; wa• still in his
possession, and he had no objection to produce it, if
it was the wish of the House.

The Winless was here ordei-ed to withdraw, but
told not to leave the House.

The SPEAK ER had now to inform the House,
that be bad received farther letter from Mr.
Walsh, in which tlen.Gentleman, though he inti-
mated that he should not attend in his place, ex-
pressed a wish that the proceedings befote the
House, in his case, might not be .delayed on that
account ; but at the same time stated it to be his
hope that the evidence of his Medical. Attendant
Would remove evz.ry objection to his former letters
to him (the Speaker), being tead to the House.
Mr. BAN &Es thought it would not .br regular to
put on their Journals that palliation or defence
which it was obviously the wish of Mr. .Walsh to
get inserted, through their being read by t he' SpeA-
er. He was not a little enabarraised how to., ad
It appeared that till Saturday last he had cal:ed in
no medical attendance. 0o Friday last he had been
served with an order of the House to woe,' inThis
place on Monday. He had previously been order-
edto attend nn Thursday, but it WAS not 'till Satur-
day, after hearing that it would not be regular to
read the letters he had sent to the Speaker, as no
incapacity to attend from bodily indisposition was
there set forth, that be called in a medical gentle-
man. Till then, it should appear that it never en-
tered his mind to make jodisposition a plea for non-
attendance. It appeared he was only anxious to
get his letters read, that they might be placed upon
.the Journds, and therefore to their being read, he
should for one ot-Jjett. To do so would, he thought,
under such citturnstances be inconsistent with the
order they had made, and with the regular, course
of their proceedings. It remained for then to con-
sider what should be done. He was ready to pro-
ceed with the motion of which he had given notice,
if it met with the approbation of the House : but it
it was thought there would beany hardship in de-
ciding on the case of a man •.v Ito was absent, arid
who might yet come down to the House, and reply,
to the charge made against him; if that was' defer-

red for the present, he would be the last man h the
House to oppose its being postponed. He, how-
ever, could not but suppose, from the cornmunica,
Lions which he had made to the Sreakeri thdt Mr.
Walsh bad no intention of appearing to the charge.
Whatever might be urged in defence, or rather in
palliation of what he had done, the fad of his hav-
ing committed the offence with which he was
charged, was admitted under his own hand, and
therefore could not be shaken. This being the state
of the case, he did not know that it would be im-
proper to proceed. He wished to pause, to hear
the sentiments of some other MeMber, and to hate
time to consider what step it might be necessary to
take. He did not wish to do any thing that might
make the case of Mr. Walsh a case of hard,hip, but
as he thOught the infamous condo6t of one Member,
in some sor:, threw a di•grat e on the whole body,
it appealed necessary to lose as little time as might
.be in proceeding against a person in the situation
of Mr. Walsh. On 'this ground he had taken up
the subject, and on this it was.his determination to
pursue it. He wished to hear the sentiments of
others, but for himself he thought the letters of
Mr. W.11,h ought not to be put on tie Journals,
and that it was desirable to avoid delay in the case of
a Member against whom so serious a charge was to
be made.

The CHANCELLOR Ofithe EXCHEQUER. was of opi-
nion, that from the representation which had been
made before them of the state of Mr. Walsh,
_what-
ever they might suppose to be his intention, whe-
ther they supposed he would or would not appear,
a case was made out-which ought to stop their pro-
ceedings for the present. From the evidence given
.before them by the Gentleman they had examined
at their, b.ir, it appeared that in a fillnight Mr. W.
might attend in his place. He thought that the
House was placed in that sileation that t hey could
not proceed immediately. When a Member • was
ordered to attend in h's.place, and was'unahle to do
so from ill health, they ought not to decide on his
case till he was able to come down to the House.
This he suggested, not to favour the individual, but
for the sake of the general principle. He thought
they must feel, that whatever might be the senti-
ments of that House, with respect to the offence of
Mr. Walsh, whatever reason they might 'have to
think that he would not attend, or that attending
his defence could not be satisfaaory, still it was then
dui), to guard themselves and their posterity against
a Member's being called on to attend when un3tAo
to do so, and condemned in his absence, without
proper opportunity being afforded to hint Of meeting
the charge to be preferred against him. Under ail
the circumstances of the case, it might probably be
best to move the adjournment of the subject over
the time which had been mentioned, as tbat in
which it was probable Mr. Wal,h would be able to
attend in his place. He did not intend making a
motion to that etrei9 ; but the,
,Honourable Gen-
tleman had wish, d to hear the sentiments of some
one on the subject, and lie' had
_therefore thought
proper to offer his.

M. BANK ES, adopting the sr.ggestion of the
Right Hon, Gentleman, then moved to adjonrn the
consideration of the case of Mr. Walsh to Tuesday
fortnight.
Mr. W. WyNtqn concurred with the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman in what he had advanced with
respett to the necessity of giving the person against
wituin a charge was to be made, a pauper oppor,
tunity of meeting it.
• Sir F. BURDETT made some observations on the
conduct of an Hun:int-able Member, whose case
had been before the lionse, (Mr. Mansell Phillips
it was understood) and against whom proceedings
were stopped, in consequence of some atrange-
went having been made, the conditions of which
he (Sit F.) understood the Hon. Member had not

Mr. LQcxtlittur said, that when he saw the Ho•
nourahle Member alluded to on the suhjed,
kid promised to appear and to plead, which was all
that the Petitioa desired. He had appealed,• and
hid ideided, and having done so, he (Mr. L.) had
not thought it his business to look to the conduct'
of that lion. Gentleman any farther. •

The quest:on was then put and carrietl, and
Mr. Walsh stands ordered to attend on luesday
fortnight.
The Irish Small Still Bill went through a Com-
mi;tee, the terort of which was received, ordered
to be printed, and taken into farther consideration
on Thursday se'nnight.
. Mr. LUSHINGTON brought up the Report of the
Irish Court-houses Bill, which was agreed to, and
the bill ordered for a third reading to-otorrow.
The Nottingham Watch and Ward Bill was read
a third time and passed.

The Marine Orlicers' Regulation Bill was brought
in, read a first time, an'd'ordered to be read a second
time to- mom row.

l'he Mutiny Bill was read a second time, and
ordered to he contmited on Thursday next.
Mr. WHITBREAD gave notice, that he would
move for the poitponetnent of the Wootton-Basset
Elediiin Petition to-morrow.

The House then went into a Committee on the
Loci! Militi3

long tikci:ssio.) ensued on thr- postponed clause,
after winch the Ilonse rcliurned, 311 d the repo; w•rs
received, ;:nd ordered io be taken 'into further con-
sideration on Thursday.
The Bill, as amended, Was ordered to he printed.