The Sun.
London, England, 1847-12-07 00:00:00

IRELAND.

In reply to Sir J. WALSH,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL stated that he
would inquire with respect to the changing of the
venue in Ireland. He was prepared to answer any
point of English law, but as the law differed in Ire-
land it would be necessary for him to make inquiries.
DEN UNCIATIONS FROM THE ALTAR

(IRELAND).

Mr. FITZNIAUItICE wished to know whether

the law, as it now stood, gave to the Government
power to bring to trial those priests in Ireland whose
denunciations from the altar had been immediately
followed by the assassination of the person so
denounced.—(llear, hear.) _ _

Mr. J. OTONNELC—I rise to order. I wish

to know whether it is competent for any Hon. Mem-
ber to ask any question which infers a calumny—an
unproved and atrocious calumny ?—(Order.)
Mr. FITZMAURICE trusted that the House
would not think it necessary to take any notice
of the interruption of the Honourable Member.
He wished further to ask, in the event of
his question being answered in the negative,
whether it was the intention of the Government to
strengthen the law in that respect, so as to enable
them to deal with those who, by the moral influence
which they possessed over their congregations, had
in certain instances incited the people to acts of
murder?—(Hear, hear.)
The AT FORNEY-GENERAL stated that he
was not aware of any facts connected with those cases,
except such as had appeared from time to time in the
various newspapers. This answer was however dis-

tinct to the question of the Hon. Member—if any
person could be proved to have been guilty of inciting
or procuring murder, they could be dealt with and
punished according to law.
MEDIATION IN SWITZERLAND.

Mr. OSBORNE wished to know whether the
Government had received any information from their
envoy at Switzerland, as to whether the joint media-
tion of the different Powers would be likely to prove
effectual in settling the state of affairs in that country.
Lord PAL ME ttsToN stated that communications
had been received, which showed that in point of fact
the civil war was at an end, and there being, therefore,
no longer any contending parties, the question of
mediation was at an end.—(Cheers.)
POOR REMOVAL BILL.
In answer to a question put by an Hon. Member,
Sir G. GREY stated that it was not the intention
of her Majesty's Government to propose any substi-
tution or alteration of the Poor Removal Act of 1846.
SCHOOLMASTERS IN SCOTLAND.
Mr. B. COCHRANE gave notice of his intention,
upon an early day, to move for the appointment of a
Select Committee to inquire into the duties and emo-
luments arising from the office of schoolmaster in
Scotland.
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND) BILL.
Sir GEORGE GREY moved the order of the day
for the second reading of this Bill.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL stated, that in the absence

of his Hon. Friend the Member for Limerick (gr•
W. S. O'Brien), whom he regretted to state was
labsent through severe illness, he rose to move the
amendment, which, otherwise, that Hon. 111serther
would have done, which was that the other orders of
the day be proceeded with. He felt it to be his
duty to oppose the Bill at this stage and upon
every stage of its future progress. In the .Bill
there was but one single point which he could re-
cognise as worthy of receiving his support—that
part was the conferring of additional powers upon
the Lord• Lieutenant to enable him to send addi-
tional forces of police into disturbed districts.
Some of the clauses of the Bill were mo.t unconsti-
tutional and arbitrary, and he felt determined to give
the Bill every opposition in his power. The Govern•
ment ought to have brought tbrvvard some measure
calculated to remedy the very great enei'd
distress which existed throughout that country.
He thought that betbre measures of coercion h;id
been brought forward those of a remedial nature
should have been tried. He would not at the pre•
sent moment go into the details of the Bill, hut he
would ask the Government in what way
they had
entitled themsleves to come to that House for the
present Bill, and in what way they dischaisted
themselves of the inconsistence of having
so strenuously opposed the measures of coer-
cion proposed by the Iste Government, two
years ago, and now coming forward with a measure
of coercion of their own—(liegr, hear)—without
having brought forward one remedial measure for
the amelioration of the condition of the people °I
Ireland ?—(Hear, hear.) The present Government had
allowed no less than five years to elapse without bring-
ing forward one single measure for the improve'
ment of Ireland. It might In said that it was
in consequence of the state of
artier
in the country
that they had :not brought forward such measures,
but such a statement was but an indifferent satisfac•
tion to the people of Ireland. What had the people
p
of Ireland to do with parties lin this country ? If the
Government could not pass measures of aineliorationt
why attempt at those of coercion ?—(hear, hear.)
He thought the Government had no pretext for
bringing forward a coercion Bill for Ireland:
in the present session ; they might at least have waited
till the actual time of the meeting of Parliament
had arrived.—(Hear.) Indeed, the Isioble Lord 3t
the head of the Government the other night stated in
terms that he had called Parliament together thug
early for the purpose of the appointment of the C°111;
mittee on commercial distress. If the Governmenf
had up to February, the usual time of the meeting
Parliament, exerted the law as it at present stood
and found it ineffectual, he would then have OP:
ported them in bringing forward strong ineasurt's,
The era of social improvement had not come, it thewU
o'
true, but it was upon the Government and f
English Parliament, and not the unhappy people
Ireland, that the shame must fall. They had eneci
glected all measures of a beneficial nature. They "sd,
applied no remedies to the prevailing evils of Irelaci s
n.
and therefore it was not surprising crime and
content existed in Ireland to a large extent. J- te
Bill, however, could not possibly improve this Wl_
of things. It would only serve still further of
exasperate the people, and he hoped it would r°
be persevered in. Let the Government bring,
in a short Bill, asking for power to increase the ait;
stabulary and establishing a registration of arm 4
and he would give them his strenuous support, but he
did say that they ought not to ask for the other power
A tried
contained in the existing Bill until they had " the
the effect of remedial measures in calming `,)
irritation which prevailed in Ireland.—(licas^,d
Mr. Carden, a Tipperary magistrate, had addres
a letter to the Lord-Lieutenant, in which be r_
commended that arms should be taken fr°'_,
all suspected persons—that all persons ,u_.`
bad character who were out after a certain hour
the evening should be liable to transportation, 2%
that heavy fines should be inflicted on certalof
districts in default of the conviction
held
guilty parties. A premium was thus ,
out to juries to find innocent persons gtlliti;o-„
in order to save the fines. There was a p !
cious specimen of a Tipperary magistrate for Yoth.
Those were the men on whose advice „ill.
Government had brought forward their •tr'
not
The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) was,
0„
unlike the sailor, who having plenty of grog ana
bacco, was asked what more he wished for, when 'l,
replied, " more grog and more tobacco,'' for he an'e
those who acted with him cried out for rn°r
Irish Arms Bills and fsr more coercion. He
back the epithets, " the vulgar expedient of repeal,.
and " don't parley with Ireland," with the contenW''
they deserved to those who uttered them.—(lll;
hear.) Under the Government of the Rig
Honourable Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) ts."
evils of Ireland grew day by day. It was to ti!°
door of his party that he laid the present state of lns
unhappy country. Ile blamed the Government Or
adopting such a measure as the cue they had pro•
posed, whilst they left the root of the evil-untouelle";
Let them lose no time in striking at the root °'
the evil, and of at once eradicating it.
trusted of all things that the a hominahil
police system would not be extended. He
given credit to her Majesty's Go.ernmeet for
good intentions ; he had not, however, much to he!'
him out in that opinion. lie had endeavoured is
vain to find out what remedial measures were to icie
proposed for Ireland. It was tree it was the intention
of the Government to bring forward a Grand Jury
But such a Bill would only be a modification
...°t
an existing institution, it would not go to the rl'hue
of the matter, or cure the radical evils Of
country. The Encumbered Estates Bill had not yet
been brought forward, and he did not k
ou,a,
when it would be, and even when it b.
passed it would be years before the slightest,out ed
neficial effect from the working of that measure 0
0e
be felt. There were no other measures proposed
brought forward as reinedial measures. It hlebreel
proved by Committee after Committee that t ",
root of the evil was to be • the le o"
found
question. Surely it was high timein
long agitated question should be settr
It had been said that that was a difficult q
,ould
Such had beer. the excuse made for years. It not
that teat
not be assumed that the statesmen of this age ha ion
considered the question, or formed seine
t0r,:,.,4,
upon it. The present Government ought. e d"rtf,
come forward boldly at once, and met th
trues
culties of the question. Prussia and other codowi
had obtained a settlement of the question, ar!_ their
should not this country endeavour to follow
course ? (The Hon. Member then read several
t!,,a
meats for the purpose of showing the miser„
I:ir"e a
distress that existed in Ireland.) He was .095 the
that they would have a recurrence in
inter
year 1848 of the severities of the "sures
of 1847, and yet no remedial Meo.
had been proposed or thought of by the
G
vernment. The principle of the Irish Y;',,to
law was to run Ireland more and more
s_';'os
debt, and do no earthly good. It was It e.;0„,
--oor
for ultimate good. denied that the ,od,
would be a source of regeneration for Ire'
It was an act of injustice to force upon Ittlati,une
poor-law in its pauperised condition ; and consider
the advantages this country had secured by the j
the
legislative union, he had a right to call tealler
House for an efficient measure of relief r Lilo(
than a coercive Bill. Twelve millions
money was the estimated loss Ireland
,Seure
tained from the potato disease, but ther.,
other losses which had reduced the capital of Ireland
ariteJ
within the last two or three years, and shish r could
to know how the present capital of Ireland,
ooid
not support its paupers three years ag?, c in the
chargeable with the support of its pauperisrtl__sotl,
present day. He wanted money for Irelands kap,'
oh.) He said it candidly, he wanted lnollPthsa
as this country owed Ireland much more meneY tiee
it had advanced, it was nothing but common Jue4yeot
that money should be paid by this country to Pr lie
the people of Ireland from dying of starvatinni.r.eiand
repeated, therefore, that money must be had• lit e or
was the mainstay of this country during the tt.oll. that
the war, and it was the height of ingratitude
„tetilt
House to treat the claims of her people with co'
,0 tell
and derision.—(oh, oh.) It was all nonsense.!tiotiat
him that England could not bear this ad° that
expense, and he could assure the Ilnlegene-
if it did not come forward nobly and tent
rously to the assistance of Ireland in its I!`,_c the
exigencies, he, for one, would not answer
ring
consequences.—(llear, hear.) It was utterlyrt its
possible for the property of Ireland to supr, With
poor, and unless this country came forwalrou_stinae
further advances of money, thousands upon ti
_et' bed
must die of starvation. Fever and disease
already taken root in Ireland, and as the,arope,
was making rapier strides through Europe'
to
he looked with considerable fear and appreheonuise to
the future. He therefore implored the 11.5_ .b,ro
come forward in a gracous spirit and ass': 'they
with another grant of money, in order
r.li.: they
might provide against conihig tielnarit Of
honour to themselves the present Lord-Lieu
made
Ireland and the present Chief Secretary I
hat; this si`'‘
strong representation to the Government of
spreorted
of the water to furnish funds to check the
disease. Those representations had been suPPt bad
wha n
,
by the report of the Board of Health; and
oontry ?
been the answer of the Government in this fever
They stated that they regretted to learn that the
had not diminished, hut they had no power urthe Ist
laws for making issues for that purpose after_ to this
of October. Why, then, did they not comv,nsteed
House to ask for powers to furnish means 0$
of seeking a Bill of coercion ?—Hear, odd
the subject of the poor-law, he would °"11, Ire-
one word more—viz., that by throwing urn were
land the support of her own poor, 311 elas ;17' the
suffering alike—the landlord and the far class
everyln
shopkeeper and the artizan—in short, ~Ihich
was partaking of the impoverishment Iln:teterr oses
the country laboured. Many of the b

Were reduced to a condition which almost made them did not redeem his pledge, he would be prepared to
fit inmates for the workhouse. The Hon. Member join his Hon. Friend in a vote of censure on the Go-
here read several extracts from the Irish newspapers, vernment. He thought the appointment of the Devon
to show the prevalence of distress, together with an Commission was most mischievous if the measures and
increased price of provisions. The Hon. and Learned recommendations it held forth were not realised.—
Member then alluded to some of the proceedings of (Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman then referred
the Irish council, and said that he entirely dissented to the accusations which had been made against the
from the proposal of extending the income-tax to Ire- Roman Catholic clergy, which he pronounced to be
land, which would, in effect, crush that country. unfounded and calumnious. He knew of instances
However much the Irish Members were divided on where the clergymen of that church were most active
other subjects, they concurred in thinking that no de- in dissuading from crime ; and he could show some
pendence could be placed on the poor-law for the threatening notices which had been sent to Roman
salvation of life in Ireland. Their representations Catholic priests and even to Roman Catholic bishops.
were met by the reports of Government officials, who lie hoped that the Lord-Lieutenant would not wait
had a direct interest in making favourable reports, fir the present measure, but that he would pour po-
tted representing things as better than they were. lice into the disturbed districts, which he had the
The memorial of the Irish hierarchy to the Queen power of doing at present. The farmers of Ireland
ought to command attention from Ministers, and were themselves most anxious for this Bill.—(Hear,
convince them that something far different from a hear.) He was prepared to meet those cowardly
coercion Bill was needed. The Irish hierarchy had assassins, not by an order to prime and load, hut to
the full confidence of the people ; their representations present and fire.—(Laughter.) Those were the orders
were supported by the bulk of the Irish Members, who he had given, and which enabled him to be there.
were unanimous in declaring the poor-law insufficient, He had received notices, and this was the way he
and in asking for some modification of the law of would meet them. It was due to the honour of the
landlord and tenant. Every one knew that a great country—it was their duty as men, as citizens, and
amount of capital had been hoarded, from the inahi- as Christians, to support the present Bill.—(Hear.)
lity of the tenants to employ it in the land; this Sir G. GREY said he was glad he had given an
money had now been applied for the purposes of emi- opportunity to the lion. Member for Meath (who
gration ; and its flowing out of the country could had risen at the same time with himself) to address
only be prevented by a measure establishing tenant- the House, for his address had confirmed th. opinion
right. Let parliament, while punishing the murderer, he (Sir G. Grey) entertained, namely, that it was
do justice to the innocent and protect the oppressed. almost unnecessary to appeal to the Howe to reject
Every past committee and commission had ascribed the motion of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny. Ile
the evils of Ireland mainly to the insecurity of felt a conviction that not only the majority of the
tenant-right. In the digest of Lord Devon's com- House, but the majority of the Irish Members, would
mission the same fact was stated and deplored. not lend themselves, he would nit say to obstruct
It was to be regretted that, while every pamphlet this Bill, but to obstruct the Government in reading
which maligned and misrepresented the country was this Bill a second time, in order that its provisions
eagerly laid hold of in England, and quoted on both might be fully and promptly considered. He had
sides of the house, the testimony of one disinter- risen only to express his earnest hope that gen-
ested witness, an Englishman, Mr. Wiggins, had ilemen would feel the importance of entering upon
been entirely overlooked. That gentleman declared a consideration of this measure with promptitude,
that the want of tenant right was the monster and that they would not be led away by the speeches
grievance of Ireland. The same thing had been of the Honourable Member for Kilkenny and of
asserted on the bench by Chief Justice Pennefather. the Honourable Member who seconded his motion
This fatal cause had been long in operation, and into the wide field of discussion which they had
would continue so, until Ireland was plunged in chaos opened ; and to state now, that it was not because he
and blood. In allusion to the unhappy victims of the did not feel the importance of the questions raised by
recent murders in Ireland, he was bound to state, the Honourable Member for Kilkenny—for he agreed
after the attempts that had been made to blacken the with the Honourable Member for Meath, that many
character of the peasantry, by representing the vie- of those questions did deserve the consideration of the
time as men of the most humane and unimpeachable house—but because he thought they might be more
character, that in several of those unhappy cases there conveniently considered upon other occasions—(Hear,
had been harsh treatment of the tenantry. The late hear)—that he asked the House to postpone the dis-
Mr. Roe was stated to have broken his word to a cussion of them now, and to allow the order of the
day to be read, that the Bill might be discussed, in
tenant. In proof of this the Hon. Member read a
letter from a Mr. W. Loghlin ; also an extract from which stage of the proceedings he should be in a
an Irish paper, charging the bailiff Hill with making situation to address to the House a few observations
an untimely distraint on a tenant named Quayle. The in explanation of some of the provisions of the Bill,
respecting which he had been misunderstood, and to
Right Hon. the Home Secretary having, in a speech
of three hours, raked up everything he could to remove some objections which had been made to the
blacken the character of the peasantry, and to exhibit Bill. This, however, was not the stage in which he
the crimes of those in low estate, he was bound to could enter into those explanations, and he should be
ex ose the crimes of those in a higher position.—
only obstructing the business of the House if he were
p
(Hear.) The Hon. Member then read some further to lend himself to the discussion introduced by the
extracts, reflecting on landlords generally in severe Honourable Member for Kilkenny and accept his
terms, and stated that he had several others invitation. As to any feeling in this House or in
in his possession which he should refrain from reading, this country against Ireland, he utterly denied it.
because his correspondent had stated that some —(Hear.) It was the wish of every Englishman
parts were perhaps too highly coloured. Government that Ireland should be rich, happy, prosperous, and
ought to pass a coercion Bill, not for the peasantry, contented.—(Hear.) In England, indeed, there was
but for the landlords, for the sake of teaching them a strong feeling against the unchecked progress of
their real interests. In Ulster, where tenant-right crime and assassination—a feeling entertained on
prevailed, the landlord was sure of his rent, and the both sides of the House ;and there was, he hoped, a
tenant was prosperous. The only objection to this
readiness to give the Government and the Lord-Lieu-
system was, that it prevented the consolidation of tenant of Ireland the means of checking a dastardly
small holdings; but that was a light evil, as weighed system of secret assassination, which was a disgrace
against the great good which resulted from the sys-
to any Christian country.—(Hear, hear.) He should
not attempt to go into the proceedings of the last
tern. He advocated no theory, but was confident
P
that a recognition of tenant-right would effectually Parliament with reference to this subject. The Hon.
stop the murderous proceedings that had recently Member had brought a serious charge against the last
taken place. To the present coercion Bill he objected Government and the last Parliament—that party con-
in toto, because it was unaccompanied by measures of
siderations had prevented a due consideration of the
relief. As to its details, he objected to them because affairs and the condition of Ireland. He (Sir G.
they made the Lord-Lieutenant a dictator, and gave Grey) would not enumerate the acts of benevolence
him a power above the constitution. The Right Hon. done by. the last Parliament, the acts of generosity
and of justice towards Ireland—for they were not
Baronet who introduced the Bill had described it as
one of merely local application ; but the Lord-Lieu-
only acts of generosity and benevolence, but of justice
tenant, if he chose, might enforce it in every county —he would not refer to the days, and weeks, and
in Ireland. True, he was a good and humane man,
months which had been devoted to measures to miti-
but it was not prudent to invest him with powers
gate the distress, and destitution, and permanently
arbitrary and unlimited. Another objection
relieving the state of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) This
so
Was that the Bill embraced the penalties of the White- was not, however, the occasion to defend the conduct
boys' Act, and made them applicable even where there of the Government towards that country; if the
was no proof of outrage and murder, as required by Hon. Member believed that the conduct of the Go-
the Whiteboys' Act. The power of search was a
vernment had been culpable, let him bring forward a
dangerous power, although given by this Bill only in motion fairly, and he (Sir G. Grey) would meet him
a mitigated form. As to the power to call upon the in the same spirit ; but let not a question as to the
country to go in search of the murderer, he believed conduct of the Government towards Ireland in
it would be utterly inefficient and inoperative. If the Past times stand in the way of a measure
Bill did reach a Committee, which he hoped it would necessary to meet a pressing evil, for at all events
not, he should have to battle the several clauses which a measure was necessary to check the progress
it contained there, and he would not, therefore, at of crime and assassination. For this reason he
this state go further into detail. He called upon the should not say a word more now, but to entreat
Government to relieve the distress of Ireland—to be the House to proceed to the second reading of the
just to her—and thus to avoid the necessity of such Bill.—(Hear, hear.)
Bills. Ireland could not be crushed down into utter The question was then put; when,
misery without this country suffering also—nothinp Mr. O'CONNOR rose and said, if he had the
could prevent the poor of Ireland from seeking rerug; slightest notion that the adopting the proposition of
in England, and they would bring fever into this coup- the Right Hon. Baronet would lead to the restora-
try, and throw the burden of their maintenance on its lion of peace and tranquillity in Ireland, he should he
people. Again, he would ask what would he the the last Member in the House to postpone the object
state of Ireland in the event of this country being at he had in view for one moment. But he was of
war—how could rebellion he prevented there if justice opinion that the Right lion. Baronet would not find
were denied ? Notwithstanding the wrongs of Ire-
himself the better for the aid of the Hon. Member for
land, the English people advocated this Bill—all the Meath. It was an old saying—" Defend me from
papers of this country, with the exception of the my friends." It had been the misfortune of Ireland
that there never had been unanimity in her councils.
Morning Chronicle, were hounding on the Govern-
ment to coercion ; but that paper, to its credit, was —(Hear, hear.) Those who had undertaken to re-
advocating a settlement of the differences between present the distress, the grievances, and the situation
landlord and tenant. The Hon. Gentleman proceeded of Ireland, never could agree amongst themselves as
to defend the Irish priests from the charges which had to the remedies.—(Hear, hear.) The Irish people,
been made against them, and declared that but for however, were more fortunate now than upon former
their exertions society would long ere this have been occasions, for they had a more patient hearing.—
at an end in Ireland. Ever since the connexion of (Ilear, hear.) The Honourable Member for Meath
the two countries Ireland had been oppressed, and had defended this Bill, but he had given only a poor
whenever relief was given it was meagre and tardy. and equivocal support to her Majesty's Government.
Eighteen months had passed since the last coercion The opponents of the Bill had at all events the de-
Bill was proposed in that House, and not one measure duration of the Honourable Gentleman that he ex-
of justice had been adopted—not one single act of petted remedial measures before coereion.—(llear.)
substantial kindness had been shown to Ireland, and The Hon. Gentleman's speech contained the strongest
now they found the very men who had so nobly op- arguments against coercion The history of the world
Posed coercion coming forward as its friends and offered no example like that of Ireland, where a mil-
advocates.—(Hear, hear.) lion of suffering people had been prematurely con-
Mr., POWER condemned a coercion Bill for Ire- signed to the cold grave, and all this was borne with
"Ind, unaccompanied by remedial measures. He patience. Until those measures were tried which had
wished to see crime put down by the strong arm of been effectual in the cases cited by the Hon. Member
the law, but he thought the existing law was amply for Meath, and until the Government had tried the
sufficient for the purpose. If extraordinary powers stringency of the ordinary law, this measure—he
Were to be created for the purpose, he implored the would not call it, with the Hon. Member for Meath,
Government to look at the character of the men who a poor, pitiful, and dirty measure, and no measure at
obey not
have to carry those powers into effect. Were all—ought not to be had recourse to. This measure
Iney not the Irish landlords and magistrates, who ge- would bring the ordinary law into disrepute ; he
brethren as an inferior race ? Surely they were aerelly had been taught to look upon their Celtic would show that this was the invariable result in all
countries where the ordinary law was not exerted,
dangerous persons to be entrusted with such autho- and coercion was introduced ; and he would show
ritY. The Hon. Gentleman then defended the Irish that the Government and the Lord Lieutenant had
Priests from the calumnies which he said had been not strained the ordinary law, nor even pushed it to
heaped upon them, and declared that they were active its ordinary limits. The Attorney-General had been
in their endeavour to prevent crime, rather than to asked whether the Government could change the
encourage it. He proceeded to contend that the venue in Ireland ;he (Mr. O'Connor) could tell the
Roman Catholic religion was not incompatible with lion. and Learned Gentleman that the Government
constitutional liberty, instancing Spain, Portugal, A could change the venue. The Lord-Lieutenant had,
part of the United States of America, and, finally, moreover, the power of ordering a special com-
the efforts of Pius IX. to give freedom to ta I Iy, in mission ; he had the power of selecting his judges ( a
Proof of the assertion. great power in England), and of appointing juries,
Mr. GRATTAN said he would support the mea- and he had the power of resorting to the written
sureof Government, because be thought the time evidence of the police when other evidence broke
had come when humanity required support in Ire- down ; and all this by the ordinary law. It was the
land.—(Hear, hear.) He would support the Bill for landlords of Ireland who were looking for this mea-
the honour of the Irish nation, which w. s tarnished sure. The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
by cowardly murders.—(Hear, hear.) His Hon. Tamworth had said, the other night, that he would
Friend the Member for Limerick introduced a great hold no terms with assassins and -murderers ; that he
deal that was irrelevant into the discussion. Ile would first establish tranquillity in Ireland. Whence
talked of the want .of assistance on the part of the were the seeds of these crimes ? The Right Hon.
Government to relieve the distress and misery of Ire-
Baronet had himself indicated them, when he stated
land. That was all very right, but the present was that he had bestowed 2,0001. in rewards upon 'men
not the time for that question.—(Hear, hear.) The who gave evidence against offenders. Money thus
question of distress had nothing to do with the ques-
given would have the effect of suborning evidence.
tion of outrage and crime. A man starving would Let the landlords of Ireland do their duty ; let them
come to ask for bread, but not to take away life.— not suppose that they had , nly the property of their
(Hear, hear.) If a man wanted to go to a relief lands, and that there were no duties attached to those
committee, he did not go with a pistol or a blunder- lands. A comparison had been made between Irish
buss,,, but with a can for his soup. He thought that and English landlords, but they could not be corn-
his Hon. Friend had taken away from himself all pared as a body ; good landlords were the exception
ground for opposition to the measure, because he did in Ireland, whilst there was scarcely a bad landlord
not support the amendment proposed in the Address, in ,England. In Ireland the tenant was sub-
on the ground that the Right Hon. Gentleman, the jetted to the folly, the impertinence, and the insolence
Secretary for the Home Department, and the Right of his landlord; whereas in England, even if the
Honourable Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, estate were sold, the tenant's rights were preserved.
ideclaredv that the people would be kept from starva- That was the reason why coercion was not required
in England, and was required in Ireland. But as
In. lie saw very little coercion in the present
-"111.---(Iteart hear.) When compared with the long as coercion Bills were obtained remedial mea-
leasures of 1814, 1822, and 183.5, it seemed to him cures would never be had. All crimes in Ireland
tn
'a be a mitigated ands wretched—he would not were perpetuated by the bad system prevailing there,
abuse the Bill he was going to support—(Laughter) whilst in England there was no inducement to agree
-- but he was surprised that his Hon. Friend did not rian crime. His only surprise was that Ireland was
see the almost invisibility of
called an arms Bill for it
of the coercion it con- so quiet, so calm. Let the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir
This could not b
tained. George Grey) prefer his indictment against Ireland ;
,
would only affect those who would be likely to use but they had not heard how the people of Ireland
them for the destruction of human life. He thought were mixed up with financial details. It appeared
it right, when 'it murder was committed, that the that the solicitor of the Provincial Bank of Ireland
had put on the file this term no less than 800 declare-
People should pursue the guilty P arties. But he
tions on behalf of the bank. It was not, because he
would go further than the Bill, for he would make
the rich thought the Bill too stringent, or that he did not de-
rmal go out in pursuit as well as the poor
sire to arrest the hand of the assassin, that he opposed
roan.—(Hear, hear.) If a man had property he
ought to defend it, as was done by Lord de Freyne this Bill ; he resisted it as a lawyer, upon principle
and Mr. Grace, who armed their tenants for that 4
pun. and authority. The Hon. Member then read a long
Pose- His Hon. Friend alluded to many_ Points extract from the work of Beccaria on crimes and
which deserved the serious attention of the (govern- punishments, showing that disproportionate punish-
ment, especially that which related to an amendment, nients tended to make a people hard and insensible.
the
ethe landlord and tenant law. The Noble Lord at After reading various passages from Montesquieu on the
en head of the Government declared, on the 2d of Spirit of Laws, and from Blackstone and Bentham,
pr, 1846, that no person could contend that the with a similar object, the Hon. Gentleman quoted an
relations io,ns between landlord and tenant in Ireland opinion of similar import from the work of Lord
Wereevilsof the law as could be rensedied by legislation England, and then asked whether it was possible to
ht
g to be soremedied without delay, for, by so doing, produce stronger proofs than these of the bad effects
inbe
Iy wouldirem_ove one of the great causes of crime of even straining, much less setting aside, the ordi.
Il
whicere Oughtd•—(Hear, to be set at rest ; and if the Noble Lord Ireland was likely to be a petitioner at their doors
for alms instead of bullets, and just after the people

had witnessed the sacrifice of a million of their fel- the Right Hon. Secretary for the Home Department
low-countrymen by famine, to meet them with a that he (Mr. O'Connor) would oppose this Bill from
coereioe Bill. He must say he was not astonished the preamble to the last clause; he was determined to
that Ireland should be a beggar at Britain's door, and divide on every possible opportunity ; and, as a rea-
that that country should be always in a state of dis son for not passing the measure, he begged to call the
:ress and disorganization, when he saw such men as attention of English Members to the position of the
the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Grattan) come down to Hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. S. Crawford).
that House, as he did on the debate on the Address, That Hon. Gentleman, who had divided against this
and as he had done now, and turn against his coun- Bill, was one of the largest and best landlords in
try, expressing reliance on the good intentions of a Ireland ; he sought for no coercion Bill to secure
Government that had ever deceived them.—(Hear.) him against his tenants' wrath; he could walk over
If they were near the period of a general election, his estate by night and by day in safety, for which he
would that Hon. Gentleman act as he had done ? fairly required his rent—he also performed his duty.
lie would ask, if the people were moved to greater If he (Mr. O'Connor) conscientiously believed that
vengeance than they had yet shown, on whose head this Bill, or even one of a more severe character,
would lie the responsibility of all the turmoils and would have the effect of repressing crime in Ireland,
savage outrages that might occur? The responsi- he would readily give it his support; but it was he-
bility would rest on the originators of the Bill and cause he understood the character, the condition, and
those who supported them, if conciliatory and reme- the constitution of his countrymen better than the
dial measures were not also introduced for the relief Right Hon. Home Secretary, that he had determined
of the people. They had been told that the Irish that this insidious measure should not go to the con a-
people were very bountifully treated by the English try—at least with the stamp of his (Mr. eiConnor's)
Parliament, but that it would not interfere with Irish approval. He was determined to perform his duty;
property. Was not the Tithe Bill an interference but he begged to say, that if the Right Hon. Baronet
with the landlord's property ? And when they car- (Sir G. Grey) thought proper to introduce efficient
vied free trade, was not that also an interference with remedial measures with regard to Ireland, he (Mr.
land ? And would they tell him that they were O'Connor) would have great pleasure in giving them
afraid and were not competent to interfere with the that support to which he might consider they were
raw material, when year after year, they were med. entitled.
dling with the produce of that land, and thus de. Mr. D. BROWNE should support the second
stroying the value of the raw material ?—(Hear.) reading of this Bill, because it did not go too far;
The Irish landlord was a poor, proud fool, who would because the circumstances of the country required it,
not engage in labour or in any course of industry by because it would affect only guilty parties in certain
which his circumstances might be improved. districts, and afford protection to respectable persons
Ireland was saddled with the law of primo- in the midst of a reign of terror. He also supported
geniture, and the people almost universally it because he believed it would be administered by
looked to the land for support, while they had the Lord-Lieutenant in a spirit of moderation and
no manufactures. Hence, they found a poor but humanity. He supported it because he believed that
proud aristocracy looking to the bounty of Britain, the majority of the people of Ireland had no sympathy
instead of putting their own shoulders to the wheel, with those crimes. He believed the majority of the
and endeavouring by industry or skill to work out people and the priesthood were anxious that these
their own salvation.—(Hear, hear.) They must not murders should be put an end to. He believed that
suppose that after sowing the seeds of evil for cen- the murderers were outcasts and traders in blood,
tunes in Ireland they would be able to eradicate and were not connected with the predial diffe-
those evils at once, or to remove all the vices of the rences between landlord and tenant. The murder
Irish character in a day. He would tell them that of the Rev. Mr. Lloyd was a brutal, dastardly, and
the vices of the Irish people were the consequence of barbarous murder, and such atrocious murderers were
misrule, while their virtues were the characteristics a disgrace to Ireland; and as he wished that the
of their nature. They got credit in that House for law should be vindicated he gave his vote for this
generosity and for industry and honest exertions measure. It might be said that this was an uncon-
in any country of the globe but their own ; and stitutional Act; but it was more unconstitutional to
why was this ? Because their tyrants, who ruled leave the country at the mercy of a set of lawless
them with a rod of iron, would not allow them the marauders. lie would give his vote for this Bill
fruits of their own labour. The moment a man without reference to remedial measures, lest it should
became industrious in Ireland that moment he de- seem that he had the slightest sympathy with such
stroyed his own prospects.—(Hear, hear.) As to crimes. The administration of the law in Ireland
the present Bill, he contended that its very mildness was most inefficiently carried on. The Crown pro-
was a thing to be feared. He knew what large pro- secutors were often incapacitated from performing
mises would be made as to the mild conduct of the their duties by reason of age and infirmity. In
Government, and how these promises would be acted Connaught the senior prosecutor had been ten years
upon. When weak the Whigs were always courting superannuated as an assistant barrister, and yet he
the people, but when strong they ever showed the intole- continued Crown prosecutor. The late Mr. Ellis had
ranee of a coercive Government. He remembered been five years superannuated as Crown prosecutor,
when, instead of sending to an agricultural country a and yet continued an assistant barrister. In Con-
Lord-Lieutenant who would encourage the pursuits naught the Crown solicitor was so incapacitated by
of an agricultural people, they sent Lord Normanby, age and infirmity that he had not gone the last five
who, sporting his regimentals, and with feathers fly- circuits. Such was the inefficient manner in which
ing, traversed the country like another Don Quixotte the law was administered. He felt confident that, in
—(Laughter)—proclaiming everywhere a gaol de- trusting the powers contained in this measure to the
livery, overriding the ordinary law, and relieving Government, they would not abuse it.
from merited punishment the theives and felons who Mr. M. O'CONNELL said he held in his hand a
by that law had been imprisoned for their offences.— book, entitled "An Account of the Debate on the
(Hear, and laughter.) He remembered when all this Bill for the Protection of Life in Ireland, in 1846,"
was done to court popularity among the Irish people, edited by R. Dillon Browne, M.P. (The Hon. Gen-
and now they came down to that House for a coercion tleman then read extracts from the speeches of Mr.
Bill, by which they might override the ordinary law Dillon Browne on that debate, in opposition to that
once more.—(Hear, hear.) He condemned the Bill measure, and in which he advised that coercion should
because it entrusted the law to the hands of an indi- he given up and remedial measures tried.) The Hon.
vidual, who, to whatever extent he might go in viola- Member for Meath (Mr. H. Grattan), too, who had
tion of the law, would be certain of indemnity from been one cf the most strenuous opponents of the
that House.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gen- Coercion Bill of 1846, he regretted to find amongst
tleman the Home Secretary had read letters descrip- the advocates of the present measure. Disguise it as
tive of the state of Ireland; but he knew well how they would, this Bill was as much an infringement of
nefariously such letters, and the information conveyed the constitution as that proposed by the Right Hon.
in them, were got up by parties interested. He could Baronet, and which the Noble Lord now at the head
relate to the House many instances to prove the base of the Government said he would never consent to,
means resorted to for the purpose of misrepre- unless it was accompanied by remedial measures.
renting and injuring, for interested purposes, the On the same ground put forward by the Noble Lord
people of Ireland. In 1833, while professionally in 1846, as against the Arms Bill of the Right Hon.
engaged at Clonakilty, he was thrown from his Baronet—the absence of remedial measures—did he
horse; and, while suffering under the injuries then (Mr. M. O'Connell) oppose the Bill now before the
received, was sent home by a friend in his gig. House. It was all very well to refer to the condi-
While so travelling, he fell into conversation with tion of society in Ireland, and point to the calendar
the servant who accompanied him; and this person of crime as a justification for such a Bill; but how
told him, that at the time Whiteboyism was at its did they expect human nature to endure patiently
height he was living with a captain in the army; the tyranny to which the Irish tenantry were sub-
that a major belonging to the same regiment was on ject, driven from their holdings, without food or
a visit to his master ; and that they, accompanied by shelter, prevented froth reaping the crops they had
two or three other persons, went out at night with sown, and deprived of all the advantages of their
their faces blackened, and swore in the people in outlay and labour ? Try the experiment in England,
their neighbourhood to he Whiteboys, in order that and see what would be the consequence.—(Hear,
they (the officers) might thereby get employment, hear.) He gathered from the reply of the Right
He (Mr. O'Connor) communicated this information Hon. the Home Secretary to the suggestion of the
to Lord Ilatherton (then Mr. Littelton, and Chief Right Hon. Baronet (Sir It. Peel), that a detective
Secretary for Ireland), and offered to bring forward police was about to be organized in Ireland. What
the man as evidence, provided measures were taken was this but a return to the old spy system, with all
for his protection, and the means given him of going its attendant horrors, its perjuries, robberies, and
to a foreign country, if necessary; but he would not murders ? How many instances were there in former
interfere in the case, because the parties concerned days of innocent men being entrapped into the coin-
were
gentlemen. After narrating one or two mission of crime, and then informed against for 'he
cases, to show that threatening letters were sake of the blood-money? In no country save Ire-
got up by the police and others in order land would such a system be tolerated. It had been
that they might find employment, the Ho- practised in 1798 under the notorious Major Sirr,
tioural)le Gentleman proceeded to condemn the lan- aided by the infamous Terry O'Brien, and yet in
guage tha• had been used towards the Roman Catholic these days it was sought to legalise perjury by Act or
priests. To calumniate those priests was the greatest Parliament. Notwithstanding the determination ex-
injury they could inflict upon the people of Ireland, pressed by some Irish Members to support this Bill,
because they were closely connected by blood, pur. he for one should give it the most determined oppesi•
alwayssuits, anrdeardeyligtoioani,dwainthd tchoenspooleorthpeemasainntaran,),,Asiiitduawtie,rme
etiaornneisnt every
asstaagni
exoofusitsapsroagnr3erssm.
in which they could be placed. He would tell them crime, and he ha not
a not only preached but practised
that if they hoped to destroy the religion of the people obedience to thew H
h
ae had endeavoured to
of Ireland, or the influence which the priests enjoyed, enforce a maxim laid anHein hdaednobueneenifalgs
d down by one whose memory
no attempt could possibly be more hopeless.—(Hear, he must ever revere and venerate, that the worst
hear.) In 1822 the Right Hon. Member for Mont- enemy of Ireland was the man who violated
gomeryshire (Sir C. W. Wynn), who was then Pre- the law. He would not parley with the murderer,
sident of the Board of Control, paid a just tribute to but he would strain the ordinary law of the land, in
the character of the Irish people. That Right Hon. order to secure his punishment ; but he protested
Gentleman said that, when he reflected on their many against arming irresponsible parties with extraordi-
admirable qualities, on their genius and intelligence, nary powers to do that which might be done by the
on their steady devotion to any cause which they smallest particle of resolution and courage on the
heartily espoused, on their patience under privation. part of the resident landlords in the counties which
and suffering, and on their generous hospitality, he were said to be disturbed, and which would be put
could not but condemn that policy by which all these down by the tenantry if the landlords gave them the
excellent qualities had been perverted, and all these slightest encouragement so to do. But he found
gifts of nature and of Providence had been rendered fault with this Bill on another ground, namely, that
the fruitful source of crime and bloodshed. But, not- it was entirely and exclusevely a landlord's Bill.—
withstanding that opinion, Parliament passed a coer- (Hear.) It was not a Bill for the protection of the
cion Bill for Ireland, and suspended the Habeas lives and property
of the people, but for the protec-
Corpus Act in that country. In passing any men- tion of magistrates, who would not do their duty,
sures for ameliorating the condition of Ireland, it was and to enable the landlords to collect their rents.
necessary to enforce the rights of the people, or the He had expected after the numerous commissions of
landlords would take care to derive all the benefit, inquiry which had been issued by various Govern-
When the Legislature gave the landlords of Ireland ments, that at the commencement of this session the
25 per cent. of the church property, did the tenants present Ministry would at least be prepared with
gain anything ? No ; the landlords pocketed the some remedial measures for Ireland. He understood
whole, and the wages of labour, instead of being that the Landlord and Tenant Bill was actually in
raised, were reduced. Of the amount which had print, and, being of the Irish table of the House. kept back,
people, been recently granted for the relief
It was, however,
and not a word
advanced had yet been s •
so, it ought now to be on the
in patronage, while only 30,0001. had been stated to the House. In fact,
to landlords for the improvement of their estates. nothing__ whatever had been done to carry out any
And why was this ? Because so many technical itn. of the recommendations contained in the report under
pediments were thrown in the way of granting such Lord Devon's Commission.—(Cries of " Divide.")
advances.—(Bear, hear.) He (Mr. O'Connor) was One of those recommendations was
satisfied that they could not improve the condition of burdens on the land, and yet, by the to lessen the
he operations of
the labourers and farmers of Ireland without improv- this Bill those burdens would be increased by fixing
ing the condition of the landlords ; and how was this on the land the charge of the extra police employed
to be done ? Not by giving the landlords money, but at the will and pleasure of the Lord• Lieutenant.
by inducing them to make their estates worth money. Hon. Members opposite had spoken of certain state-
He was ready to maintain, in spite of agriculturists, ments alleged to have been made by Roman Catholic
and of free-traders, and of political economists, that clergymen from the altar, but the Attorney-General
there was not an acre of land in England or in Ire- told them tnat wherever such
land which was let at half its value; and that if a charges could be authenticated prosecution would
had very properly
better system of agriculture were established, the follow. 'With respect to the denunciation of Major
value of the land would be very materially increased. Mahon, the clergyman implicated had himself denied
The landlords of Ireland had managed their property in print that he had ever mentioned that gentleman's
according to the science of politics, instead of by the name or that he knew anything about him. What
science of agriculture; and their great object had would the House think of an English landlord, who,
been to obtain bishoprics or commissions in the army coming into a property, should commence with a
for their sons, and good matches for their daughters, small village at his park gate, and take from the in-
instead of endeavouring to improve their estates. In habitants their little gardens, from which they had
the good old times of the Hutchinsons and Beresfords, obtained their winter's subsistence ? The Honourable
boys were down in the army list for promotion from Member proceeded to detail other instances of Major
the time of their birth ; and when he (Mr. O'Connor) Mahon's conduct towards his tenants, but was con-
was eleven years old, there were two lieutenants in tinually interrupted by loud cries of " Question."
his class at school.--(A laugh.) At that time the He complained that the deceased gentleman had sent
Beresfords got everything, and when Lord Cathcart a number of his tenants on board ship, bound to
visited the family, as he had seen a great many Be- America, but the vessel being wrecked, the people
resfords in the army list, he requested to be intro- were obliged to return, when, sick, starving, and
duced to the young heroes ; and, after dinner, these shipwrecked as they were, they were left on the road
instructions were given,—" When the lieutenant without shelter to perish. Until the Noble Lord at
wakes let him come into the room; when the captain the head of the Government had laid his remedial
wakes bring him down ; and when the colonel wakes measures on the table, the House might expect that
put him on his regimentals, and bring him here."— he (Mr. O'Connell) would give this Coercion Bill
(A laugh.) He (Mr. O'Connor) must say he was every opposition in his power.
glad that the Honourable and Learned Member for Mr. GARDNER gave a reluctant support to the
Limerick (Mr. J. O'Connell) had seen the prudence Bill. He was not one of those who would vindicate
and propriety of opposing the measure now before murder, or who did not wish to see it punished, hut
the House ; and he hoped the Hon. Gentlemen who he could not help having some compunctious visitings
usually acted with him (Mr. O'Connell) would adopt when he remembered the gross ill-usage which Ire-
a similar course. He (Mr. O'Connor) had suffered land had experienced at the hands of this country.—
much persecution, but he was willing to forgive the (Hear, hear.) He regretted, therefore, that the Right
Government for their share in it if they were pre- lion. Gentleman while proposing coercion had not
pared to redeem their pledges with regard to Ireland. more clearly indicated the remedial measures he
The fact was, that the present was a Government of proposed to introduce for the benefit of the sister
toleration ' • and the best way to promote the welfare country. He was not one of those who thought that
of Ireland would be by a combined action of the Providence had endowed one race more than another
Irish Members and landlords, irrespective of politics, with instincts of crime and indolence. He was will-
of classes, and of religious creeds. If those Gentle- ing to admit the defects of the Irish character, but he
men boldly stood out for the rights of property (not was inclined to attribute them, not to the providence of
only for the rights of the landlords, but also for the God, but to the misgovernment and tyranny of man.—
rights of the labourers), they would be too strong (Hear, hear.) That country had for 600 years been
for the Government. He regretted that the Right under the dominion of what an eminent foreign
Hon. Member for Tamworth was not in his place to- publicist had called a bad aristocracy. Pure
night ; for, if the Right Hon. Gentleman had been blood, no mill-owners or manufacturers, to grind
present, he (Mr. O'Connor) would have been glad to the people, nothing but lords, squires, and serfs.
have given him some information on the subject of To these England had added an alien priesthood
tenant-right; but, as that question was to be brought and in her superstition bad shut out every avenue
before the House by the lion. Member for Rochdale, of advancement from the great body of the people.
he (Mr. O'Connor) would abstain from commenting The outward and visible sign of all this oppression—
upon it at present. Lie begged, in conclusion, to assure the Protestant Established Church--still existed in