The Sun.
London, England, 1840-06-12 00:00:00

EVENING EDITION

thought so? Not one.—(Hear, hear.) The argument
was to assimilate the two countries, but he (Mr. O'Con.
nell) would say assimilate them entirely, and the first
point on which assimilation should be made was as related
to the franchise, and if the Irish have fair play ou that
subject, let it be first ascertained the best system of regis-
tration for England, arid let them apply that afterwards
to Ireland. That was all he contended for at present.
It was admitted that the EngEsh system requirea amend-
ment, and what lie asked the House was, first to see what
amendment the English registration system required,
and then consider how far those amendments were appli-
cable to Ireland. He would rather they had their own
national interests to consider than devising a system for
Ireland. Let them refuse that, and he asked, did they
put an argument in anybody's mouth in favour cf the
Union. They refused the people of Ireland the betefit
of a comparison. They insisted on disfranching seven-
tenths of the voters of Ireland, and let any man
say under such circumstances that the Union was a good
thing and ought to continue. All he asked was that the
English question should be settled in the first instance,
and then let the Irish people have the benefit of the ins-
.
provernents.—(t,ties of Question," and " Divide."
Mr. V. STUART, amidst cries of " Divide," said be
felt that the difficulties of Irish registration would never
be settled till the qualification had a good test given it.
The House divided,
For the amendment
Against it
Majority
—ll
ADDRESS TO HER MAJESTY.

A Message from the Lords brought down (we believe)
their Lordships' concurrence with the Commons—and ou
the motion of
Lord J. RUSSELL the House agreed to meet at
at half-past one to-morrow to take up the address.
Sir D. NORRE YS then rose to bring forward bis
motion for an instruction to the Committee, that every
person (otherwise qualified) who should have for two years
paid the poor-rates, on a fixed valuation, should vote,
This, he said, had struck many Members on both sides as
the best way to obviate the perplexities of the unfortunate
" beneficial interest." All that he would ask the House
was, to recognise the principle, that a new qualification
should be established, instead of that which occasioned all
the evils, the fraud and perjury, which it was the object of
the present Bill to terminate. He concluded by moving
that it be an " instruction to the Committee on the Regis
t•ation of Voters (Ireland) Bill, to enable every person
otherwise qualified, who shall have, for the period of one
year, paid poor-rates on a valuation of per annum,
to register his vote."
The motion having been seconded, and the question put,
Lord STANLEY said he had waited for a few mo-
ments, from the consideration that this was a question
upon which the Noble Lord opposite (Lord J. Russell), or
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Solicitor-General
for Ireland, might think it necessary to express an
opinion, as the motion proposed an alteration of the
franchise in Ireland. No man regretted more than
he did the doubt thrown upon the meaning of the words
" beneficial interest" in the Irish Reform Act.—( Hear,
hear.) He knew well what passed in the House of Com-
mons when those words were introduced.—(" Hear, hear,"
from Mr. O'Connell.) They were intended to have the
same force as the words in the English Reform Act for
which they were substituted, and upon which no English
Barrister had started the least doubt.—( Hear.) He would
be glad to see that much cexata ygeatiu.—( Hear, hear,
and a laugh.) But the motion of the Hon. Gentleman
seemed to be a new proposal—for the basis of the whole
elective franchise of the country—of a qualification which
was studiously left blank by the Hon. Gentleman who pro-
posed it.—( Hear, hear.) Exclusive of that he (Lord
Stanley) objected to the time when the proposition was
introduced—( Ilear)—becauie if one thing were more un-
derstood than another, from the time when the Bill was
introduced up to the present moment, it was that the re.
gistration alone should be considered, and that everything
relating to the franchise should be excluded from the dis-
cussion.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord (Lord J. Rue-
sell) and the Solicitor-General for Ireland had separated
the two questions of the registration and the frana
chile in the Bills for England and Ireland.—( Hears)
For his part,
.he should be most anxious and willing, 'to
adopt any course consistent with iris duty to suppott any
measure which would tend to get rid of the mistakes and
errors (to use r.o harsher term) which were commit ed
daily in the registration. But he did not think that this
was the proper opportunity, as the Bill before the House
related to the registration alone.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. WARBURTON did not agree with the Noble
Lord that this was an improper occasion for bringing for-
ward a measure relating to the franchise in Ireland. The
objectof this Bill was to take advantage of a fraud which
had been practised upon the people of Ireland as to the
franchise which they were to possess. It was unjust end
absurd to force on this Bill for the registration, until it
had been defined what the franchise should be. In one of
the discussions which took place upon the Bill which at-
companied the Catholic Emancipation Act, the Noble
Lord declared that it was enough for the tenant to prove
that he had a beneficial interest in his lease, to the amount
of his qualification, without proving that another person
would give him ten poueds a-year in addition to the
rent. By the interpretation which had since been put
upon the words " beneficial interest," an actual fraud
had b. en practised upon the people of Ireland.—( Hear.)
By means of that interpretation numbers were already
deprived of the franchise to which they were rightfully en.
titled, and which it was the intention of the Legislature
to confer upon them. The Noble Lord's Bill, at the same,
time that it diverted everything relating to the registry,
adopted that unjust and fraudulent interpretation. Was
it not time, then, that the House should refuse to consent
to a new Bill fir enforcing the most strict reg stration,
without first making clear what the franchise to be regis-
tered should he ? He would, therefore, support the iv-
struction.

Mr. S. O'BRIEN regretted that there had been such
lavish censure cast upon the people of Ireland, by Hon.
Gentlemen opposite. He hoped his Hon. Friend would
have no objection to insert in the blank the words "tett
pounds," and then he would vote for the motion.
Lord MORPETH then rose and said—The Noble
Lord the Member for North Lancashire had expressed his
surf rise that neither he nor any other Member of the Go-
vernment had risen after the Honourable Baronet.
It was not necessary for any Member of the Government,
while so many Irish Gentlemen were ready to join issue
with the Noble Lord.—( Hear, hear.) But the Govern-
ment would not be backward in proposing such amend-
ments as they thought necessary, if the Bill proceeded.
He quite agreed with his Hon. Friend, who had moved
this instruction, that none of the Bills placed the qualifi-
cation upon a satisfactory basis. He thought the meesure
which the Government had proposed a much better one
than the Noble Lord's ; and if the Noble Lord persisted
in cramming down their throats his measures they were
bound to meet him with a measure which they thought
more safe and less pernicious.__( Hear, hear.) The par-
ticular in which he thought the Bill of the Noble Lord,
and their own Bill was deficient was, that they both leP
the qualification to rest upon what he conceived the gr eat
source of all the evils complained of. It might be 'asked
why had the Government not made a proposition, them-
selves upon that subject ? It would give him Lord Mor-
peth ) greet pleasure to encounter °Ale difficulty
of settling the precise amount
the qualifi-
cation ; but it did seem to hi
position of the sort would have., been
7.1 that any pro-
premature at
the present moment, and for
because there was no rate I:aese threw reasons—first.
ree valuation in Ireland at pre-
sent on which they
...ald fix the franchise ; secondly,
because he looked ',iron the good and peaceable working
Poor-lay in Ireland to be a matter of such incalcu-
of the Poor-
lable imP"'lcance, far beyond all political and party con-
flicts. '.nat he was anxious the original valuation and first
rem should be established and fixed upon before they at-
tended to any thing so political as the ascertainment of'
the franchise ; and, thirdly, because he thought until they
saw what the general effect of the valuation was, it would
be working too much in the dark to fix the whole elective
franchise of Ireland upon any amount of rate not at pre-
sent in existence. He protested against any appeal being
given against the franchise until they had distinctly
settled the qualification, because it would be a fraudulent;
and indirect mode of abridging the franchise. However,
the question relative to Irish Registration might be settled
during the present session, he would not abandon the hope
that Parliament would, ere long, place the qualification
upon a fixed, known, settled, and impartial rating.
Mr. LUCAS thought dee House was indebted te the
Hon. Member opposite fo aving introduced this subject;
but in consequence of the excitement which prevailed after
the very close division that had taken place, very little of
what the Hon. Gentleman had stated reached his (Mr.
Lucas's) side of the House. He hoped, therefore, the
Hon. Gentleman would postpone his proposition for the
present, in order that it might receive due consideration.
Mr. RE DINGTON would vote for the motion of the
Hon. Member foe Mallow.
Af.er a few words from Mr. SLANE Y,
Mr. O'CONNELL said it was of the utmost im-
portance that the House should consider the Bill, so that
there might be satisfactory decisions upon it, both by judi-
cial persons its Ireland, and by Committees of that House.
The rating clauses were a fit subject to be considered is
Committee. The Noble Lord who had just sat down had
expressed his doubts as to the propriety of mixing the
Poor-law with the franchise. Why, the Poor-rates was
already mixed up with the franchise, because it was the
basis of franchise in Corporations, and was the basis upon
which the Irish Corporation Bill had gone from that House
to the Lords. The Poor-rate was therefore already made
the basis of the franchise in cities and boroughs, and he
did not think there would be much danger in extending it to
counties. There was nothing so uncertain as the valuation,
and the House ought to go into Committee for the
purpose of seeing if they could not find out a fran.
chise that would exclude perjury and false swearing_
The Noble Lord boasted that his Bill contained no defini-
tion of the franchi ; ',but that appeared to him to be one of
the greatest dere< o :the B:11. They attempted to re-
gulate the franchise before determining what the franchise
seas._( Hear, bear.) At present tbat was uncertain, and
opened a wide door to the imputations of perjury and ,
ca-
lumny against an entire country and people. It was well
I known that the most opposite opinions were daily pro.
I nounced by the most eminent legal authorities in Ireland,
from the difficulty of defining what the franchise really
was. Nothing could be more dangerous to the public
tranquillity in Ireland than to have it supposed that the
Judges were mere political partizans. In 1829, the Noble
Lord considered " the solvent tenant" test would make the franchise a 20/. instead of a 101. franchise. In 1832, his
opinion appeared to have undergone a change, and he
wished to know how the Noble Lord could reconcile his
contradictory opinions on the Reform Bill of 182/6 and the
Reform Bill of 1832. 'lihe Noble Lord substituted dif-
ferent words in the Bill of 1832 for those of 1829, show.
ing that he had alt.( ed his opinion, and the words inserted
in the new clause were " beneficial interest." It was
idle, therefore, to attempt to disguise the fact. The people
of Ireland knew and felt it, and until these difficultiea were
put on end to they would have the same differences of opinion
among the Judges and the Assistant-Barristers, and the
same contradictory evidence as to the qualification of the
party seeking to register. He should therefore vote for
the motion of the Hon. Baronet the Member for Mallow,
belies kg that it would best secure the objects of a fair and
impartial registration in Ireland.

After a fete words from Mr. LE FRO Y,
Lord J. RUSSELL thought the proper course would I
be to have a separate Bill for defining the franchise aed
the constitution of the Court of Appeal. That appeared '
to him the most advisable course, and therefore he should
not vote in favour of the Hon. Member's amendment.—
(Tore cheers.) He trusted, however, that in Committee
the declaration of the Noble Lord with respect to the defi-
nition of the franchise would not be persevered in. He
agreed with the Hon. Member for Monaghan that they
should endeavour to obtain some more satisfactory test of
the franchise, and thereby get rid of the contradictory evi-
. dence which the pr cent system created.—( Hear.)
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but no divi-
sion took place ; and on our return to the Gallery we found
:tip D. NO RRE Y S on his legs, stating, that in accord-
ance with the suggestions that had been made, he would
withdraw his amendment.
The amendment was then negatived, and on the question
that the Speeker do leave the chair,
Mr. WARBURTON rose to move an instruction to the
Committee, of which he had given notice, for defining the
quad cation of electors for countie,, in Ireland.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM submitted that it was net com-
petent ro the Hon. Member to move an instruction to the
Committee on the question that the Speaker do leave the
chair.
Mr. O'C 0 NN E L L said the question had not been put.
Loud cries of •• Yes.") If Hon. Members persevered
in taut. lie should mova that the House do now adjourn.—
Laod eiteere ;Arid :ouch uproar.)
Lord RUSSELL said that the general practice was
;lust a motion for instructions to a Committee should not
be given after the motion was put that the Chairman
sheuld leave the Chair. Ile thought, however, that the
Hon. Member rnigho without any inconvenience, be al-
.tenei to move Lie :instructions in the present instance.
Mr. O'CO NELL al-prated to the Chair on the sub-
jeer. The 1, cts of the cave were these ;-0.1 the motion
.hat the Speaker should leave the Chair, the lion. Mem- I
bet for Mallow moved that an instruction should be given
to the Commits, e. The Hon. Member bad, however,
efeemvards withdrawn his motion. He (Mr. O'Connell)
submitted that the motiou of the HOll. Member fur
bJai-
having been withdrawn, it was competent to any other
Member e, put a ,imilar one.
The SPEAKER said that the ordinary time for moving
inetreetioe to a Committee -.v:25 on the motion that the
Oder dthe Day ,would be read. The Hon. Member for
:Hallow hed inured an instruction to the Committee which
let had at terwards withdrawn with the consent of the House.
The mitt question was then put that he (the Speaker)
slimed leave the Chair; and that question having been
" put, it was not susceptible of' amendment.
Me. WARBLTRTON said that he would not then op-
e the motion that the House should go into Committee.
But when the House had gone into Con.mittce, he should
niece that it should resume for the purpose of enabling him
to move an instruction.
Ti.e SPEAKER then left the Chair, amidst the cheers of
this Opposition beueliee ; and the House resolved itself
into a rommittee, Me. FRESIIFIELD in the Chair,
On the :notion being put that the Bill should be read a
ties,. time,
Mr. W ARBURT ON moved that the Chairman should
report prog -cgs, and ask leave to sit again, in order that
he might move an instruction to the Committee.
Mr. LITTON opposed the amendment.
Sir C. G REY, who, on rising, was received with
groans from the Opposition benches, said that it would be
unjust to the Committee to deprive it of the power of de-
claring the law respecting the qualifica.don of electors in
Ireland. He would, therefore, support the amendment of
the Hon. Member fur Brideort.
Me. O'CONNELL complained of the advantages
which the Right Hon. Baronet Sir James Graham) had
token of the strict rules of the House. The Right Hon.
Baronet, however, had set him an example which he (Mr.
O'Connell) felt it his duty to follow. He would give
every opposition in his power to the Bill of the Noble
.Lord. The reason which had induced him to consent to
Ate withdrawal of the motion of the Hon. Member for
.llsilow seas that he imagined the other motion might be
brought under the consideration of the House. He found
that tire Speaker had decided against him, but be
now pressed on the Committee the necessity of
allowing the important question of the qualification
to be decided, which could not be done without an
instruction to the Committee. The present state of the
law as regarded the qualification was a most anomalous
eine.. There was a difference of opinion on the subject
aatnoeg the Judges, which it would be advisable to pot an
eld to. He wanted to bring the subject fairly before the
Heeese.—( Hear, hear.) , He asked whether there ought
not to' he an iustruction from the Committee before they
proceeded further. He would therefore press it upon the
Commit ee to report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
Lord STANLEY said that the Reform Act in no re-
spt ct whate eer conferred a- qualification on any freeholder,
which had noebeen possessed under the 9th of Geo. IV.
—( Hear, hear.
Mr. O'COININ'ELL (who rose amidst cries of " Di-
vide," " Oh, oh," end whistling) said he had no doubt
whatever that the Hon. Member, from whom the indecent in-
terruptions came, knew nothing of the subject.—( Hear, hear,
andlaughter. ) The Reform Act required the person regis-
tering to prove the qualification as set forth in that Act ; and
nut according to the former Act. What he complained of
was, that the Noble Lcrd, not being a lawyer, thought him-
self such, and it would not become him (Mr. O'Connell) to
give the Noble Lord a lesson in modesty.--(Laughter.)
Sir E. SUGDEN made some observations which were not
heard in the gallery.
Mr. O'CONNELL, in mere compassion—( A laugh)—would
en eke an observation. The Learned Lawyer, who had just
sat down, stated that the Noble Lord (Stanley) was quite
right, and that he (Mr. O'Connell) was not wrong.—
4( Cheers.) Now, was such a state of things to remain ?
(Cheeri>. ) He alled upon the House to decide the question
either way—for nothing could be more miserable than to
have the rights of a whole people uncertain.—(Hear, hear.)
The great reproach of our law was its uncertainty ; and he
asked the Committee to give the House an opportunity of
snaking 'an instruction for the purpose of getting rid of the re-
proach in this ease at least.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. H. GRATTAN said that when the Irish Reform
Bill was before the House, he met the Noble Lord (Stanley)
at the Irish Offiee by invitatioa. and there received an assur-
ance from the Noble Lord, that the words " beneficial
interest," were intended by him to convey a meaning
directly opposite to that interpretation which the Judges had
niece put upon them, and which the present Bill of the Noble I
Lord was intended to confirm.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir W. SOMERVILLE had gives the greatest po,sible
.attention to this question. He had taken every pains to
ascertain what had been the intentions of the framers cf the
Reform Act in the introduction of those words ; and he found
that the Noble Lord himself had introduced them with a
meaning altogether opposed to the interpretation put upon
them by the Judges.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Baronet then
'quoted several passages from the speech of the Noble Lord, on
the discussion of the Irish Reform Bill amidst considerable
laughter.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON said that the decision referred
to, as having hen given by the Lord Chief Justice of the
Qu..en'.s Beach in Ireland, was misreported. lie hoped her
31ajosty's Government would act consistently, and oppose the
motion of ,the Member fcr Bridperr.
After a few words from Mr. O'CONNELL,
Mr. WARBIJRTON replied.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the Com-
mittee divided. The numbers were—
For the motion
segainet it
Majority against Mr. Warburton's
'naction -93
Lace STANLEY said having negatived the proposition for
reporting: J‘rogres3, it was cot his intention now (considering
the hone ot ;lie night at which they had arrived) to object to
a simile.-
,„„ti,,:t. After seven or eight nights' discussion, and
been able to advance a single clause, or a single
without having
line, he trusted side Noble Lord would not think him dis.
court cons if he, not t,-I.Ling to interfere with the important bu-
siness that had been fixe,. Ito- to-morrow, fixed the Committee
'
hued take the sense of the House
fur Monday next, and he s::
on the morieu.—(Trerneneous o''eering•)
Lord .T. RUSSELL believed it wenhi be necessary, when
the Chairman repot tea peneress,thet he ehotild ask leave to sit
again on a precise day. If the Noble Lord eropesed Monday
mat, he ( Lord J. Russell) should eel tainly move :is an amend-
ment ti at the Committee be fixed for Wednesday —( jiecre. )
Ile Bill i:eing the Bill of a private individual, he saw no ,711-
son why it should stand in the way of the Government busi.
hess which tad been for a considerable time under the eon.
sideration of Parliament. More than 300 Members hail en.

,yl3

tirely dis.:lpproved the principle of the Bill, and considered. the
-whole measure as vicious and dangerous. After having waited
several oiglits on mere party motions, if the Noble Lord now
interfered with the t.usiness of the House by fixing the Com-
mitteefur Monday, he should certainly resist it.—( Cheers. )
Lord STANLEY said it was perfectly competent to the
Noble Lord to take that course. It would be necessary for the
HOUEe'ita resume in the first instance, and he would be ready to
divide the House than night on the question.—( Cheers. )
Mr. O'CONNELL would then move, as soon as they had
resumed, that the Howe do adjourn.—(Oh, and great uproar.)
The Bill was a Bill to trample on the rights of the people of
Tre.and.---( Laughter, uproar, and much confusion.) The Bill.
he repeated, was a Bill to trample on the liberties of the
people of Ireland.—(henewed uproar, hooting, and laughter.)
It the uproar was ten times as beastly he would repeat it.—
(Loud cheers, followed. by cries of " Chair," " Order," and
great confusion.)

Sir S. CANING appealed to the Chairman whether the
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin should not be made to
retract his expres,ions in the most positive manner.—(Great
uproar, and cries of " No, no," " Chair," " Order," &c. )
Mr. O'CONN ELL said the word he had used was bellow-
bea
ing( Cries of " Beastls.") Were any bellowings other than
stly.—(Loud cheers. No man would venture to deny
that. What sounds were they? Certainly not human sounds.
—( Renewed cries of " Order," " Chair," " " uproar.) Retract, and
Mr. LA3IBTON begged to ask the Chairman with great
respect, whether he had heard the extremely indecent inter-
ruptions svhich the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin
had met with.—( Loud cheers.) In his opinion they were
most disgraceful to any assembly of gentlemen.
The House at this period presented a scene of the greatest
confusion and excitement, the floor, from the bar half way up
the Ifiuse, being covered with Members, most of them waving
their hats, and shouting with the greatest vehemence. Seve-
ral Members also rose in their places on both sides of the
House, and gesticulated in the most violent manner; but, in
the confusion that prevailed, it was impossible to catch any ex-
pressions that were used.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Fresh&lo was satisfied the Han.
and Learned Member would retraoi•—(Loud cries of " No,
no," and uproar).
Mr. kIEUWORT" LAMBTON. .Sir, I beg to ask, with
great resrce, if, when the Hon. and Learned Member who.
was interrui t by the Honourable Member opposite (Sir S.
Cann,oa
,) f r using a vary strong extrotsi )ou hoard the
extremely in lecer,t interruption that was offered to him.—
Immen3e cheering.) He eedrecated the attempt that had been
made to tyrannize over an individual Mcniber.—( Renewed
cheering.). When the Chairman offered his opinion as pre-
siding over their councils, he ought to take that into hi 3 consi-
deration.—( Vu(ifernta cheering from the Ministerial benches,
followed by cries of " Order," " Chair," from the other side of
the House.)

Sir B. HALL would not comment on the expression that
had begn used by the Hon, and Learned Member for Dublin,
but it was his intention to state the course lie should take in
reverence to the notice that had been given with regard to the
proceedings of the House.—(Loud cries of " Chair," and
Question.") ')

The CH A lAA AN said the question before the House was
the expressions that had been used by the Hon. and Learned
Member forublin.--(Hear, hear, and cries of "No, no.")
Perhapg tKCornmittee would indulge him for a few moments.
He had with very great diffidence taken upon hinaselt to decide
the appeal that had been made to him, not being at all ac-
quainted with the interruptions which the Hon. and Learned