The Sun.
London, England, 1847-06-12 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT

HOUSE OF LORDS, June 11.

Their Lordships met at Five o'clock.
Messengers from the Commons brought up several
Bills, which were ordered to lie OR the table.
LUNATIC ASYLUMS (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion of Lord CAMPBELL, this Bill was
read a third time and passed.
HEALTH OF TOWNS BILL.
The Marquis of NOI{MANBY presented petitions
from Birmingham in favour of the Health of Towns'
Bill; also from Warwick, Canterbury, Coventry, and
other places, to the same efftvt.
PO UG AL.
Lord STANLEY wished to know if the Noble Mar-
quis the President of the Council had issued any in-
structions with respect to the prisoners of war that
might be taken by our naval forces off Portugal; and if
so, if he bad any objection to lay them before their
Lordships.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that he had not
reo-ived the papers, and therefore he could not give an
explicit answer to the inquiry; but he might observe
that the surrender of the prisoners had been to de with-
out any conditions, and that they were nut subject to
any peculiar r•-strictions.
Lord BROUGHAM then gave notice that he should
bring the stil*,ct of the armed interference i. ith the in-
ternal affairs of Pcistugal before the House on Tuesday
next, and he trusted therefore that any :nformation
which . the Government might possess would be laid
before the 11.,1130.
Lord STANLEY said that, under the circumstances,
and in consideration of the intimation of his Noble and
Learned Friend near him, he begged to give notice
that, on Tuesday next, he should raove that their Lord-
ships should take into consideration the present state of
the affairs of Portugal, with a view to obtain further
information than any which they at present possessed.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that all
he bad to state was that he really possessed
no further information than that which he bad already

given.
Lord BROUGHAM begged to explain, that as his
Noble Friend had given notice of a motion, he would
withdraw his own inquiry.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH thought that good
reasons ought to be shown why this interference had
taken place, for the decrees of the Queen had been issued
on the 7th of October, and this interference had only
taken place within the week.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—That might be at-
tended to at a tutwe time.
SPANMII BONDS.
Lord BROUG LIAM begged to present a petition
from the Sectety of the S anish Bondholders, praying
the interference of the Government in their behalf,
and that the authorities in Spain might be induced to
pay the arrears of their debts. In mAing this motion
he could not but observe that it was e cktes, able
and dishonourable for men to repudiate their debts, as had
been done with so much shamelessness by otherceuntries.
The petition stated that the Spaniards had the means of
paying, for their revenue had greatly inereased since
the debt was contracted. Tee petitioners prayed that
their Lordships would take their case intotheir most
serious consideration.
GREAT SOUTHERN AND WESTERN
RAIL WAY.
Earl FITZWILLIAM. was desirous of calling the
attention of their Lordships to the report which had
been laid upon the table of the House of Commons re-
lating to the great Southern and Western Railway of
Ireland. The report, which had been prepared by Mr.
Walker, recommended the encouragement of these un-
dertakings as one of the beat means for getting rid of some
of the prevailing evils of Ireland. Hithertothe labourers of
Ireland had been unaccustomed to receive money wages,
but the introduction of these works into the sister king-
dom had produced a great change in that respect, and
he thought Government could not do better than give
their assistance to similar undertakings. He begged to
move that the paper be laid upon the table of the House.
Motion agreed to.
NATIONAL EDUCATION SCHOOLMASTERS
IN HOLY ORDERS.
The Bishop o EXE rER, rose for the purpose
of bringing forward the motion of which he had given
notice, a few days since, That it is the opinion of this
House that persons in holy enders not exercising eccle-
siastical functions, ought not, as such, to be ineligible to
the office of schoolmasters in schools receiving the aid of
Parliamentary grants. In bringing forward that motion
he telt deeply impressed with the necessity of her
Majesty's Government adopting that resolution. It was
highly necessary, for the benefit of tae rising generation,
that the principle of his motion should be carried out.
Many of those whose interests he wee advocating were
persons of the greatest intellieeece, and though not men
of the we rid, they had their hearts true from those in-
fluences which would disable them from discharging the
duties of teachers, and wet peculiarly well qualified to
impart instruction. He said that the Noble Marquis, on
the 25th August last, when the Minutes of Council were
drawn up, had made no conditions which excluded
clergymen from the situation of schoolmasters. The
inquiry was as it affected the clergy. What was the fit-
nqss or the unfitness of deacons to teach? It appeared
by the resolutions, that the parochial clergy were to
assist in the examinations, and if that were so, it followed
as a natural consequence that there must be a course of
instruction in which he could concur, for if it were not,
how could they take part in the examination ? Then
there was anot.her question raised by these reselutions,
and that was as to how far the doctrines thought in the
school were in accorelaece with those of the Church of
England, and in conformity with the principles of the
authorised version of the Bible. The Right Rev. Prelate
then read a series of extracts from the resolutions, in
order to show the restrictions which are imposed upon
the clergy of the Church of Eteglanct. Ho could not un-
derstand why a clergyman could be eligible to the office of
inspector, and yet be deprived of performing the functions
of a schoolmaster. It was on anomaly he could not account
for, and he hoped the Noble Marquis would explain
clearly and distinc.ly why so singular a distinction was
made. If a clergy man were incompetent to fulfil the
duties of one situation, surely he was capable of pertorm-
ing the functions of the other, and he must c ntess to
their L.relships, that he was quite at a loss to conceive
upon what grounds this resolution of the Council was to
be justified. The motives which governed the Wes-
leyan body in their recent negotiations were evidently
that they wished the Government to support them, and
that the same assistance should be refused to all
'other sects, excel)r those who might happen to agree in
the same religiens opinions as themselves. That body
hie: most strenuously opposed the appointment of or-
dained persons to the situation of schoolmasters.
And the Government had, in his opinion, most
improperly given way to these objections. There
was one point to which he wished to call the
attention of their Lordships in the correspondence that
passed between the Committee of the Wesleyan body
and the Lord President of the Committee of Privy Coun-
cil, and that was with respect to the liturgy and cate-
cnism of the Church of England. The Noble Marquis
had consented, in reply to the application ot theWesiey an
body, to permit the catechism and liturgy to be dis-
pensed with in their schools, and thereby encouraged the
Wesleyans in their resistance to the original minutes and
regulations on education. He denounced this conduct
of tee Noble Marquis as most unjust, and a breach of
faith with tue Established Church. But this was not
only done now for the first time, but the act itself was in
direct vielatieu of the trust deed under which the Coun-
cil of Education was eetablidied. The schools carried
on with the funds raised by the minute of C uncil were
conduct. d upon the principles of the Established Church,
and et their Lordships had an instance of her Majesty's
Government committing themselves to a course of pro•
ceedieg that was ie direct violation of those principles.
The schools established by the Wesleyans were formerly
onlytwo per cent. of the whole number in existence,
and it was too bad that a body who had only availed
themselves
of the minutes of the Council to so small an
ext-nt should be suffered to extort such termswh as those
str, had the
hief
hmeart.hsisonc
oWf ews ihriyelthn edet°, done to neendti—(Hear,
icaoet concession it were to be called? Why,
they resisted the progress of education 'when based upon
Church principles. They resisted the educational"l
clauses of the Factories Bill in 1839, and on every
oc-
casion they had shown themselves antagonistic to al
advancement or improvement in the Church of England.
He would not detain their Lordships further, but simply
_
move the resolution of
hiowhichjn
of h
he
thad
is Housee
given
thaterp
notice—
namely, " That it is the op
suite in holy orders not exercising ecclesiastical func-
tions ought not, as such, to be ineligible to the office of
schoolmaster in schools receiving aid from the Parlia-
mentary grants."
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE (who was, as usual,
inaudible in the gallery) was understood to say that the
motion of the Right Rev. Prelate expressed nothing, and
when carried it could be productive of no good. It was
proposed by this motion covertly, if not directly, to
establish the rule, that the education to be afforded by
the public money voted by the state to the council of
education should be conducted and administered only by
clergymen of the Church of England. Now, such a re-
solution would be in direct violation of the opinions of •
Parliateent, already expressed upon this subject. The
Horse of Commons vested the money for the purpose of
education, aid to no other purpose could it be applied;
and yet, in the lace of all this, here was
the Right Reverend Prelates asking their Lord-
ships to to pass a resolution to sanction
diversion of these educational grants to the promotion
of the Church. He could not consent to such a pro-
ceeeing, but it the Church really required the aid of ad-
oittoital t mitts to secure the services of a new class of
clergy seen, let the Cuurch come forward and tell the
Parliament and the country st , and no, seek to attain the
object by indirect na, ans. Let them understand what 1
they were about, and if they were to vote money fur
educational purposes let the futela be apelied to those
e
pure: 'see, and to none other. The R,ght Rev. Prel
had aecased him of a breach of faith in treating with the
Wesleyans upon this subject. For the lite of him he
could not s.-e haw he had laid himself open to
such a charge. Parliament voted the additional
funds for the purposes of education, in
order that these education grants might be
rendered available to the Wesleyan body, who formed a
large proportion of the population of this country. How
could be biaMed then, or how could he have laid himself
open to the charge of a breach of faith by consenting to
an erratigemt nt proposed by the Wesleyans, which was
strictly in accerdatice with the spirit and principle of the
aahVdeshleoyeaotoissidweor.reed
grant, and would do away with the objeteions they must
powerfult heta elate.
body, and
otherwise entertain, to participating
ns
t that
ottasuhseear
he t theirus °aPci acted that a(tmh he had d fai subject.ilen underAtfnul:lst ith";
numerous
sueals. sddeatiublibtreyyd.;
of the Right Rev. Prelate, and
ihe course of c:,nduct wh,ch hiedwas not ashamed of
pursued. The re-
quest of the Weeleyan b .dy was the
that could possibly be made to thetemost rational one
Government.
reprotieutativeb of the whole body
were about to meet

together in a few days, and the deputation desired
to have some official intormation on the subject to
communicate to them. Nothing could be more reasonable.
Ile did not wish to charge upon the Wesleyans the gift
of prophecy, but they did most certainly state that a
short time only would elapse before the Bishop of Exe-
ter would endeavour to introduce some measure similar
to that which he now proposed. It was not till within
this very late period that the Right Rev. Prelate had
discovered the necessity of adding the stipends of the
schoolmasters to that of deacons. He believed that if
the motion were agreed to, the result would be that the
whole of the funds vote d for the purposes of education
and founding schools would be expended in training
deacons for holy orders.—(Hear, hear.) The effect of
ttis experditure would be that each of these persons
would receive item the funds of the Committee,
For apprentice-ship for five years A; 95
Expenses at normal school
bermes as schoolmaster

Making a total of £29o
to be expended in the formation of deacons for the Esta-
blished Church. lie need hardly say such was not the pur-
pose of the ciovern merit in bringing forward their measure
and he hope;i that their Lordships would not sanction
any departure from their intentions as embodied in the
minutes of Council on education, which had received
the cordial assent of the Legislature. With respect to
the motion itsolf, he would beg to say that persons in
holy orders were not now ineligible to the office of
schoolmaster, but there was no doubt that it was inex-
pedient under cover of such a measure to augment to so
large an extent as was, to all appearance, the desire of
the Right Rev. Prelate to do, the number of persons in
connexion with the Established Church receiving funds
appropriated by Parliament for a totally distinct and
different purpose. He should, therefore, feel it his duty
to move the previous question on the motion of the Right
Rev. Prelate. _ _

Lord STANLEY thought it unfair on the part of the
Government to lay down a rule at the request of the
Dissenters, debarring the clergy of the Established Church
from a participation in the benefits of the Government grant
as schoolmasters in connexion with the national schools.
He was not a bigot in education, and had no wish to
prevent the disseziting bodies from participating in the
grant for education, and if they were to urge that the
master proposed to be appointed to one of their schools,
belonged to the Church of England, they would he per-
fectly justified in doing so. lie wished, however, to
speak of the Dissenters with the greatest respect, because
a more disinterested and respectable body, and one more
desirous to promote the purposes of education did not
exist; but he did not consider that they had any right
to demand that a clergyman of the Church of England
should not have aid from the State for educational pur-
poses when he sought it.—(Hear, hear.) The
Noble Marquis said. that it was not their in-
ten'ion to train up schoolmasters who might at a future
time enter into other pursuits, but he (Lord Stanley)
thought that if they were to enter into holy orders that
their services for the purpose of education would be far
better secured than they would if the present state of
things continued.—(Hear.) For instance, employment
as clerks on the railways, and in other occupations, which
are better paid than the office of schoolmaster, would be
sought after ; but if he were called upon to enter into
holy orders, such a state of things would not occur, and
his whole attention would be secured for the purpose of
education. He did not think that the Noble
Marquis had met the case put forward, and thinking that
this was an unjust exclusion, he should support the
motion. He thought, however, that the object of the
Right Rev. Prelat., would be answered by the discussion
which had taken place ; and, therefore, he advised him
not to divide upon the motion.
The Bishop of NORWICH considered that if the
motion were carried by their Lordships, that it would
not be carried in the other House, because it would ex-
asperate the Dissenters, and these, as the Noble Lord had
said, were not times to turn from the work of conciliation.
Even it it were adopted, he did not think the thinking
portio of the Church would be satisfied with it, because it
wcula partake of an exclusive character, and would not
be tolerated. Still he thought that a schoolmaster
should be elevated to a higher office. He was most
strongly opposed to the funds of the country being ap-
propriated to those who at a future period were to be
paid by the Church. It was their duty, he thought, to
lessen the gap which existed between the Church and
the Dissenters.
The Earl of CHICHESTER saw no reason why
schoolmasters should not enter into holy orders, as he
believed that the prospect of their elevation would
induce tlsem to discharge their duties with greater effect
than if they were simply to remain teachers. He was
opposed to this motion, because he thought that it would
not be for the benefit either of the schools or of the
Church itself. The Right Rev. Prelate had read several
extracts, which showed the anxious care which had been
devoted to the system of instruction in schools, but he
hoped that that instruction would not suffer by the
absence of the honour which the Right Rev. Prelate had
it in view to confer upon the schoolmasters. In opposing
this motion, he did not wish to separate the office of
schoolmaster and religious teacher, but he thought that
they would be much better left upon their present
basis, and therefore he could not give his assent to the
motion.
The Bishop of S rILISBURY said that he did not
intend to enter upon the general subject which had been
raised in the course of this debate. He entirely con-
curred in what the Noble Marquis had stated with re-
spect to the arduous end difficult functions of the Com-
mittee of Council upon this subject, and he thought that
had such a proceeding as the one recommended in the
motion of his Right Hon. Friend been advisable it would
have been adopted. He thought that in order to allay
the unfounded jealousy which was entertained by cer-
tain persons in respect of the application of these funds,
the Government had laid down rules which might have
somewhat injured the Church of England schools, but he
was extremely glad to hear that such was not the case.
After a few words in explanation from the Bishop of
EXETER,
The motion was withdrawn.
Their Lordships then adjourned.