The Sun.
London, England, 1847-01-22 00:00:00

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that the measure was founded upon the Bill of 1817,
when a set of circumstances existed similar to
those which were now experienced ; and he repeated
that corn might be imported in any vessel, from any coun-
try free of duty, and that corn also warehoused in this
country might be taken out of bond without paying
the duty.
Mr. BRIGHT did not know why they should adhere
to the old law at all, for when making so great a change
it was not worth while, when making this alteration, to
be restrained by such usages.
Mr. M. PHILLIPS did not recollect the circum-
stances of 1817, but he felt quite satisfied that unless
the suspension of the navigation laws was made to
affect all the articles imported, it would be next to use-
less, and that ships would be boating about for
freight just as much as they had been of late
He was persuaded that, notwithstanaing the strong ex-
pressions of feeling made in Ireland against this
country, they would do all they could for the relict
of the country. He knew the difficulties the Govern •
ment had to contend with, because they were not
foreseen. Even so late as the first of October last, the
prices which ruled gave no indication that a
scarcity was likely to occur, At that time
in the Midland counties wheat was 18s. the
bag of three bushels. He thought that if the
Government had interfered earlier great mischief would
have ensued, and the freights and prices would
have risen much higher than they had done.
It was not for him to make any suggestions to the Noble
Lord in anticipation of the measures which lie intendtd
to bring forward for Ireland. One thing, however,
he would observe that in whatever mode or shape
it was proposed to afford relief it would be desirable
that the largest amount of seed should be sowed
that may be required by the wants of the people.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL wished to observe. in reference to '
the remarks of the Hon. Member for Durham, that the Go-
vernment, in proposing the suspension of the laws, had the
various difficulties he suggested under their consideration.
They-liad acted on the precedent of 1817. It would be diffi-
cult to adopt the course suggested without an evasion of the
Navigation laws ; or to make a measure that would enable
them to ascertain whether the conditions referred to were ful-
filled or not. These difficulties induced him to adhere to the
precedent of 1817 ; but if any method of obviating the diffi-
culty were pointed out he would give it his best consideration.
Mr. ROEBUCK considered that the navigation laws
should be entirely done away ; their great object was to have
vessels for the transport of corn, lower the rate of freightage,
and that object would be obtained, and they had no right to
limit it to corn alone.
Mr. T, BARING said that if he understood the meaning of
the Member for Bath it was that the navigation laws should
be entirely suspended. Now, if that principle were admitted,
the American tea cargoes would came into competition with
the English. The Noble Lord had shown the difficulties of
transporting mixed cargoes; there was perfect truth in what
he stated ; but he believed that these measures would be very
inoperative, and he would not consent to them save to show
the sympathy which he felt for Ireland; and he could assure
the Right Hon. Gentleman, if he proposed a general repeal
of the navigation laws he would have to submit to a strong re-
monstrance from the commercial bodies in the country, and to
some opposition in that House.
Mr. BRIGHT was not quite sure that the Hen. Member
for Huntingdon (Mr. Baring) was quite so good an authority
upon great political questions, although he was the
representative of the largest mercantile house in the
world. His productions upon the question of the repeal
of the Corn-laws had been proved by experience
to be fallacious.
Lord GEORGE BENTINCK thought it would require
some assurance on the part of the Hon. Member to charge his
Hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon with ignorance upon
the subject of which he was speaking. The Hon. Member
might have recollected, that at every meeting of the Anti-Corn.
law League, he had assured the people that the effect of the
repeal of the corn-laws would be to give a large loaf and cheap
bread to the people—(Cheers from the Opposition benches)—
and also to increase the exports of the country. When they
had heard that in the county of Lancaster 500 mills were work-
ing short time, and that the exports of the country had fallen
off five millions in the face of their free-trade and corn-laws
—(Cheers)—it certainly required great assurance for the
Hon. Member for Durham to charge his Hon. Friend with
ignorance in the predictions which he had made.—( Renewed
cheering.) With reference to the navigation laws, he was
prepared to support her Majesty's Government, provided the
suspension was restricted to corn alone ; but he could not sup-
port throosition for their suspension as regarded all other
articles.e p
The navigation-laws involved a great political and
national question. He had always predicted that free-trade in
corn would only be the precursor of a demand for free-trade in
everything else.—(Cheers, and counter cheers.) He took
occasion to tell the shipping interest, when they joined in the
agitation for the repeal of the corn-laws, that such wooldthbee
the consequence, and that the shipping interest would be
next to came. He would not, however, avenge the
that causel
of
the agricultural interest by lending his hand tothteherreepeawas a
the navigation laws. He had not forgotten
time when the Dutch bad the whole carryingine
bootr,adteheytthe
of the
esvaith
world, and in consequence of their gr
_rn
enabled to lead their Van Tromp
haacromrmemreea.
i-
e
mast head, to swee the Thames ot' Brits
l
should resist to the p uttermost any atternptio
gation laws, and to allow the cotton of ManchesterrePa the nev
(fur that
was the object of the Hon. Member for Durham) to be brought
home in any ships at the cheapest rate.—(Hear, hear. )
Coupled with the navigation laws, he agreed in the
opinion that it would have been better to have sus-
pended them some time since; still he could not agree
in any strong censure upon the conduct of her Nlajestv's
Ministers. He did not believe there was a man in the country
who, upon the 3d of August last, in his heart believed that
there was any calamity such as the present impending on the
country. He would not, therefore, condemn Ministers for not
having foreseen this great famine. Regarding the suspensionte
of the 4s. duty, though he would not refuse consent to the
measure, he begged it to be distinctly understood that
he did not believe that the step would enable the
consumer to get his corn one farthing cheaper.
Neither would he censure the Government because
they had delayed the suspension of the duty, though
he regretted that they had been led away with the clamour and
the cry from without to change their intentions. He did not
look at the matter as an agricultural or protection question,
but he could nut help thinking that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer was not so lull-handed as to do without the duty at
present raised from grain. Let them look at what passed only

their grain, though the people were perishing. The Shah said,
" These men have done well in keeping a supply of corn.
Nadi: Schah then made a proclamation that 10,000 golden
tomauns should be the reward of that good man who should
produce the largest supply of food. Alany claims were sent in,
but an Armenian gained the prise, for he had greater store
than any one else. He thought the people cried out, and men
and women and children asked for food—dying in the streets,
he refused to sell—saying, "prices will yet rise." The Schah
ordered his treasurer to go to the treasury and bring 10,000
tomauns, that the Armenian might be paid. He said, when
they were brought, "Sit down, my friend, and count over thy
gold." The corn merchant, having counted over his gold
tomauns, said, " They are all right." It is told that then
Nadir Schah ft owned on him, and, turning to his chief execu-
tioner, said, " Lay hands on him, and take him forth—tie
the 10,000 tomauns to his feet, and hang him to the highest
gate of the city of Rocharem —that all Persia may see that
Nadir Schah does iustice to such as take advantage of a judg-
ment of God." That was the course, but in a milder form
which had he been one of her Majesty's Ministers, he would
adopt towards the forestallers and regraters, and other political
economists in Ireland, who held out to get large prices from
the starving children of Ireland.—(Loud cheers.) He would
have recourse to that milder expedient by the enter-
prise of sending large supplies to compete with
the existing prices of corn by the dealers. So that the people
of Ireland should have the opportunity of purchasing corn at
something nearer a proper price, than of purchasing it, as it
was known they were, at 9s. per bushel for corn which cost the
importer not 4s. Had her Majesty's Government pursued
this course, as sure he felt that they should not now have had
to lament the distress, and starvation, and death in many
parts of Ireland, the people of which were starving as much
from want of provisions as from want of money to buy them
with. He was not going to offer any opposition to her Ma-
jesty's Government, but he could not support the measure
without protesting that he for one was not ot opinion that there
would be any result from it, save that of putting into the
pockets of the corn merchants, and more especially into the
pockets of foreigners, to whom he grudged it still more than he
did to the merchants themselves, the amount of the difference
of duty ; and although he supported it, he was not to be held
responsible fur its consequences, and if he hail it in his power,
he for one would have maintained the high duty, and offered
that duty so levied to the maintenance and subsistence of the
people of Ireland. —( Cheers. )
Mr. BROWNE said, in rising for the first time in the
House of Commons, he felt naturally diffident, and he had not
intended to speak at all, but that he had heard such arguments
from the Noble Lord who had just sat down, that he could not
help noticing them. The Noble Lord had related an Eastern
tale ; he would tell a story to match it. At the time of the
Emperor Julian, the city of Antioch was in the same position
as Ireland was at present, and in order to relieve it and its in-
habitants, its ports were thrown open to all vessels. The Em-
peror Julian, among others, contributed largely from the
public purse, and the consequence was that those
vessels which brought in corn were compelled to
:ell their goods at the reduced prices, and therefore neither
they nor the farmers would bring in their corn under any cir-
cumstances, and the city of Antioch was very nearly starved.
What, another case in Bombay? They had a stock of rice to
last 'hem for sixteen months at a time that the people were in
a state of starvation. The Council deliberated for days and
days, and at length took the step of keeping all the corn at
home, and opening their ports to all vessels. After an anxious
calculation, it was determined that it would be hest to permit
the corn to go out, as it was wanted, in the confidence that all
ships going to India would look in to see it Bombay was sup-
plied, and finding a demand, would sell their goods there.
When it was known across the country, numerous vessels en-
tered the port, and having inquired the prices, and finding them
fair, disposed of their cargoes of corn. He had not intended to
have addressed the House on that occasion, but having done
so, he thanked them for the attention they had paid him.
Sir C. NAPIER, who was very imperfectly heard in the
gallery, raid that in his opinion, to make use of an expression of
the Noble Lord's, the navigation laws were the very bane of
the shipping interests, and he felt satisfied, that if the naviga-
tion laws were totally and entirely abolished, much more enter-
prise would take place than was going on at the present mo-
ment. They would see that the seamen of this country would
get more protection, better paid, and the Government would
build much better ships than those which they were in the
habit of building at the present moment, if it were once known
throughout the works that the navigation laws did not exist.
He wondered whether the Noble Lord was aware that from
50,000 to 60,000 British seamen were employed off the coast
of America in consequence of the indirect operation of these
laws. In his opinion, if the Navigation-laws were altogether
abolished, they would not find any power able to cope with
them. What had they done with respect to America ? It
was found that the ships sent to trade with America were far
inferior to the American ships brought to this country and
what was done? All the energies ot the merchants were set
to work, and they constructed those splendid steam-boats
which now carried on the entire trade between England and
America. He was surprised that the Noble Lord, with all his
boldness, did not think proper to suggest, instead of opposing
free trade in corn, did not suggest suspending by an order in
Council the navigation laws.
Mr. ROEBUCK said that he had been in some doubt with
regard to the meaning of the Noble Lord thrst after-
noon, who, in speaking of the Member for Bath, seemed to
throw some doubt upon his knowledge of the subject on which
'he had spoken. he would just draw the attention of the
House to the construction of what the Noble Lord first said.
The Noble Lord had said that he believed that the measure
would be mischievous, and yet he supported it. That was his
first proposition. He said he believed it to be mischievous,
because it would not lower the price of corn to the people of
Ireland, but the money world go into the hands of the fore-
stallers and regraters, to whom he went on to say he would
do in a milder form, it he were empowered, w hat Nadir
Shah did. Nadir Shah hanged the lsrmenian with ten thou-
sand golden tomauns at his feet, on a high gibbet. He sup-
posed, in the administration of the Noble Lord's infliction, the
gibbet would be somewhat lower, and the ten thousand
tomauns would not be at the feet of the men, but some-
where else. The Noble Lord ventured in his state-
ment to say that the measure of last year was
mischievous, because it increased the price, of. c!irip.,
and yet, said the Noble Lord, he did riot oppose it aswhaßti:e
He was convinced that the Noble Lord did not kr, vv
corn during several
said after he once sat down. He bad acopy I?
which had been made of the duty leviedheaded
c'a
return of the
months of the last year. It wassetween
the 25 th of June of
ave-
rage of the duty levied on corn between fthe return
and he would just read it
last year, and the 14th ot
,J
d by
that return, that under the Act passed
June was 4s. :1 ,
owablheilLeour'idideir"thijete'e ladndlaswomiet.
ffroirenthdes.edififiecaftoitionn of thdeuring
last session, the duty and
Ss., and 10s,
under the od law it would have been ISs. In July it would
have been 55., 65., and 75.,
195.. d
lawln Aititg
would
ahaav7es.
'been 20s. In
would
ttohe
jahviel. beuenndledrs
September, 10s., 10s., and 95., while under the old law it would
have been 205., 205., and 20s. In October it wa.s tits. , is , 55., 41 s
and 45., while under the old law it would have bean .20s and.
16s. In November it was 4 4
s., s., arid 45,., while under the
old law it would have been s, 15 135., 195.., and I'2s. In De-
cember it was 45., 45., and 4s , while under the old law it
would have been 125., and 125., and 12s. Now he wondered
what would have been the position of the country it the Noble
Lord who had presumed to come down and assume the office of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if, atter such a statement as
he hail made, any Member ot the House of Commons bad
given such an answer to his observations as that which be
had just read from the returns which be held in his hand? He
trusted they were not comb g bank to the period when any man
who followed an honest. trade was liable to be sent to prison, or
any merchant was to endure hanging, for differing from the
powers that be. He would like to know, if this principle were
to be adopted, how it would further the prosperity of a great
country like this? Yet it was only clinching the nail which a
Noble Lord had inserted, llowe‘er lightly it might
tend to induce other countries to follow our
example. It only reminded him of two players
of chess, and one of them was so long in making the move
that his adversary fell asleep, who, when he awoke up, urged
his opponent with so much vehemence, that he made, the move
in desperation and lost the game. If the Noble Lord at the
bead of the Treasury would take his advice, he would imitate
the conduct of the damsel who sent her three brotbars, accord-
ing to the eastern tale, to scale a mountain, where they were
to sail by supernatural agencies, and shortly after their ascent
began, were turned into marble. The damsel on hearing tlsis