The Sun.
London, England, 1812-03-25 00:00:00

REVERSIONARY GRANTS BILL.

On the question for the second reading of this
Bill,
Earl GROSVENOR said, that a Bill of such a limit-
ed and temporary nature, only went to trifle with
the feelings and wishes of the country. He, there-
fore, would not agree to the second reading, did he
not cherish a hope their Lordships would agree to a
proposition he meant to offer, considerably to ex
tend the duration of the Bill. The general question
to which the measure referred, was one of the most
vital importance,and unless a general prohibitory mea-
sure was agreed to, the Constitution
,of the country
would be seriously injured. For his part, nothing
should deter him from bringing forward the question,
on whatever side of the House he may sit, and he
should persevere until, as he trusted, his endeavours
were ultimately crowned with success. The Noble
Earl then adduced and enforced a variety of his for-
mer objections against the system of granting plates
and offices in reversion—a system which he cen-
sured as not only injurious in a view of public eco-
nomy, but clashing with the best principles of the
Constitution. He adverted to the recent appoint.
ment of Mr. Buller to the lucrative situation of
Clerk to the Privy Council, which, according to the
admisiiion of the Minister in debate, was a reversion-
ary grant of a Dumber of years standing. - In this

A
11110100jhe filWl tio rendai+ on on that Ctn=
tie.,,,ao, or to say he wag not a proper person to fill
.the office. He also adverted to the existence W
.Sinecure Offices, a system also which he equally
disapproved of, and he charaaerited both as twin-
brothers, whose corrupt influence had long dete-
riorated the best interests of the people ; they had
lived together, and so they should die. Several of
the most eminent lights and charatters of the law
had from time to time expressed sentiments hostile
to the continuance of those sources and engines of
corruption, as Sir Matthew Hale, Lord.coke, Lord
Harthvicke, and others. The destruaion of the
system would, he said, be a day of joy and
jubilee to the people. His Lordship concluded
by repeating his intention, at the regular oppor-
tunity, to propose an extension of the term of years
in the Bill.

The question being put, the Bill was forlhwith
read a seconJ time, and commUted (-is we could
coiled) for the first Thursday after the access.

STATE OF PROVISIONS IN IRELAND.

The Earl of DAUNLEY, pursuant to his notice,
rose to submit some propositions to the House on
this subject. What he meant principally was to
call the attention of the House to the distressed si-
tuation of the poor in Leland, and he felt it his duty
to press their Lordships coo-sideration to the real or
supposed scarcity of provisions in that country. If
he really believed that any actual scarcity of prori-
sions existed in that country, the inclination of hi.
opinion was, that he should suppress the delivery
of his sewimenis in public, whatever he may feel,
as such may tend to increase, instead of alleviating
or removing the evil. But believing as he did, that
there etas no actual scarcity, no material deficiency
of the necessaries of life existing in the sister island
—believing, therefore, that tio immediate danger
was to be apprehended, or any thing like a pending
famine, at least before the next harvest, he telt nu
hesitation in calling their Lordships attention to the
subjeCt. In some distrids, aCColding to the best in-
formation which he could obtain, the peasantry were
exposed to all the miseries of scarcity, even nearly
to a state of famine. His ioformation, he alloAcd,
must fall short of those who had opportunities
from personal residence, but he certainly would
aver, from intelligence on which he relied, that in
certain parts of the country, the high prices, and the
difficulty of obtaining support on the part of the
.people were truly afflicting. His Lordship then read
extracts ham certain letters which he had recently
received, in illustration of his positions. Of part of
these, perhaps, a Reverend Prelate, whom he was
sorry not to see in his place, was aware, and of what
the inhabitants of his diocese (we believe of Meath)
sutThred in those respects. 'to the miseries of the
Iriah peasantry, he conceived no cause operated so
powerfully as the facility with which they were en-
abled to indulge in the immoderate use of spirituous
liquors, and to this injurious state of things the dis-
tillation from grain evidently must contribute. It
may he objected to hitn, it ‘sas now too late, as the
distillers had already purchased a sufficient quantity
for the supply of the year. In answer to this, he
would urge, that Government should have looked
into the matter earlier. . By his latest intelligence
from Ireland, he learnt that oats sold at the immense
rate of thirty shillings the barrel. If it were tune
that in certain parts of Ireland, the prices of neces-
saries had risen to an unprecedented height, and if
it were in the power of Parliament to apply a rcme-
dy to counteract the evil, so as to reduce those ex-
orbitant prices, it was the duty of their Lordships
even now so to do. To prevent the farther distilla-
tion from grain, though not the best, was now per-
haps the only practical remedy. It Ministers could
satisfy him that they had done every thing they
could in loch a case, and there were no grounds for
apprehending a scarcity in Ireland; he certainly
should not press his motion. He hoped their Lord-
ships would not think that he had come forward on
light grounds, or for a trivial object. He would
detain the House no longer, but more, in the shape
of Resolutions—First, That the present high price
of corn in Leland is productive of much distress to
the labouring poor in alit country. Secondly, that
it is the &Icy of Parliament to adopt such measures
as appear to be necessary to alleviate the same. And
thiraly, That it is expellent to stop the distillation
from grain in Itelaudiduriog thecoutiuuance of the
present high prices.
On the question being put,

The Earl of CLADifiARTY said, he was fully inclin-
ed to give the Noble Lord every degree. of credit on
the score of purity of intention, in his coming for-
ward on the present occasion ; but it was with much
regret he felt obliged to oppose the adoption of the
Noble Lord's propositions. Their Lordships were
not now to be reminded of the great, the extreme
delicacy with which the agitation of all questions
connected with the subsistence of the population
was attended. They must feel the great importance
of having it alleged in so grave a pkce, that the
gxecutive Government had neglected its duty on an
occasion of such vital importance. But wit hoot the
existence of any actual scarcity, as the Noble Lord
had avowed his belief, and without which he must
contend that any measure'wou4l be injurious, he
thought it much to be lamented that the subject was
thus brought forward. His information, which he
had from the best sources, from almost daily convers-
ing with persons just art ived, or from letters almost
daily received from Ireland, led him todraw very dif-
ferent conclusions from those adopted by the Noble
Lord. There was no danger to be apprehended, or
even the appearance of any degree of scarcity tak-
ing place, at least during the present year in that
country; that an universal rise in the prices of grain
had taken place in Ireland, was a proposition which
he must deny. He had recently perused a written
statement of the prices in the principal markets,
particularly in the articles of the first necessity, of
oats, wheat, and potatoes. In some places, oats
were at thirteen shillings and sixpence the barrel.
At Bantry, they were at 14s. at one time, and af-
terwards at 12s. 6d.: on the very same day, they
were as high as 255. at the great Mart of Cork.
In other parts they were so low as 34.6 d. the stone,
while a very different price must be supposed to ob-
tain at Dublin, especially since the facilities of com-
munication were somewhat interrupted. The rise,
therefore, was far from being univ-:raal, and there
existed no apprehension of a scarcity. The pro1:0-
sit:ion of stopping the distilleries would not a& as a
remedy, particularly now the season was nearly at
its close, and the stock in a state, from the processes-
it
had gone through, so as to be unfit for the food
of man. The Government of Ireland had earlier

r.t(t IhtotriiHtion on tine subjthl tbdi either
himself or the Noble Lord, Gild it vtras re-
prehensible if it did not adopt evtry praaici;ble r-x-
-pedient to avert, the dangers contemplate.[ by tiie
Noble Lord. The principal cause, in his opinioo,

for a 1-se in the prices of graiti in Ireland, was the
great exportations of corn lrour that country, and
particulatly to Great &hair'. It had been stated
that the proportion of wheat imported here troth
Ire Lind was about one-tenth ; but of late years, the
proporiion, in the article of wheat alone, amounted
to one-third of the whole of the British tmorTa-
tin() ! To this the measure proposed by a
Hon. BMt. in another House, greatly contributed,

, -
He meant not to impugn toe measure, it IN2S Ci
advantage not only to Ireland, but to the Empire at
large. (Hear, hear from the Marquis of Leul.r.;
down). As to ally serious apprehensions 01 a scar-
city in Ireland, he was far from apprehending any-.
The Noble Duke at the head of that Goverimunt
did not sleep upon other occasions, and he was no:
likely to sluoiber on this. Judging and feeling as
he did of the Noble Lord's proposition, he should
take the liberty to move "Thai this House do now
adjourn."

'Tile Marquis of LANSDOWN took the Opportunity,
to offer a few general remarks on the nature and
tendency of the alea,ure adverted to, in terms of
approba, ion by the Noble Earl, which had been
proposed by Right Hon. Friend of his (Sir John
Newport) in another place, the effed would be
more to qualify and render Ireland a grand granary
for supply, and Mimi; an inexhaustible source of
supply to the Etupire at large. A system of fre-
quent and reciprocal commercial intercourse bet weet}

the Sister I,lathls, was one, he thought, the most
to be wished for, as the system likely to be produc-
tive of the greatest reciprocal advantage.
Viscobnt MOUNIJOT made a few remark;
in suppo;t- of what had fallen from the Earl of
Clancarty.

Ile Earl of DARNLEY spoke in explanation.
Lord HOLLAND shortly observed, that from what
had transpired on the stibied, he felt it rather diffi-
cult to understand upon what principle, and
reference to the degree of scarcity to he apprehmi-
ed, upon what ground it was deemed advisable to
stop the dis:illeries in England, that would not
equally apply to Ireland.
Tire question as then regularly put, when the,
Earl of CLANCMITY'S motion for an adjournment
was carried without a division.

An Adjournment till to-morrow, of course, fin-.
mecliately took place.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

TURSDAY, MARCH 24.

Accounts of the sums paid fin the hire of trans.
ports, from the 1807, inclusive, to the present
time; were presented by Mr. Perkins, and ordered
to lie on the table.
WEALD OF KENT CANAL.
The report of the Weald of Kent Canal Bill W2S
taken into further•consideration.

Sir E. KNATCIItitILL spoke at some length against
the Bill, and concluded by moving as an Arnctcl-
- that
" As the Standing Orders of the House, as tar as relater;
to giving notice to the Owners and Occupiers of Land, had
not been complied with, the Report should be taken into
consideration on that day three months."

Mr. CALcRArr opposed the Amendment.

• .
Strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the ga'-
lery was cleared for a division. We understami that
S+r E. Knatchhull offered to withdraw his Amend..
meet, but was not permitted by the House.----
The question teas then put, the Amendment
Lived . without a division, and the Bill ordered for a
third reading.
A meisiige from the -Lords announced their
Lord,hinst assent to certain bilhf.—For which see
the Lords.

BREACH OF PRIVILEGE.
The Order of the Day having been read for the
attendance of Mr. Hiodsnu and Mr. Campbell,
Robert Campbell was called in and ex.amilied.
In answer to the several flues-nuns which were
put to him, he stated that he had had an mete,- to at-
tend a Caminittee of the House of COCIMIOOS ors
Monday (which order was here read). He hdd
been kept • front attending by an arrest. He was
wrested in his own house. He had left it to attend
the Committee; but recollecting that he hfjci
paper behind to which he should have occasion to
letet, he had returned to get it, when he was told.
that lie vas wanted up stairs, and on ,g,ing up, he,
found the Officer, who wrested him. He shewed
him the order he had to :mend the Com`mittee, and
told him that he conceived that was a proteaion to
him, but to no purpose, as the Officer answered
that he must go with him. He (thc Officer) clam
took him to a lock-up house, whete he (the wit-
ness) remained, while the Officer, whose name-wa4
Hindson, went to make inquities. He (the wit-
ness) lived at No. t, Waloot- place, Lambovh. lii
bad left his house at about a quarter past nine
o'clock in the morning. He passed the Horse•
guards at five tninutes after t welve, when, re-
colleding that be had not got with hint a docu-
ment which would be nece,sary, he crossed the..
bridge to his own hope, where he arrived at about
twenty minutes after twelve, when the arrest took
place.

Mr. WILSON rose to state why he apprehended
his arrest ought not to be cousidcrcd as a breach of
he privileges of the Howe

The SPEAKER, said the House could attend only
to tads at present. The statements of e.,,ch party must
heard in the first instance, to put them in possession
of the means of forming a judgment on the colour
of the transatition it would then be for the Hot).
Member to offer his arguments.
The Officer who had arrested Mr. Campbell (,dr.
Hindson), was then called in, and examined.
Mr. Hindson stated himself to be a Sheriff's Offi-
cer. He had arrested Mr. Campbell, at No. 1,
Walcot-place, Lambeth, at twelve o'clock, on a
Special Capias, for debt. Mr. Campbell had shewn
6-him a written paper, which paper desired his at-
tendance ta;.-ttore a Committee of the House of Com-
mons. This Mr. Campbell had told him he con-
ceived to be a protedion. The witness had never
seen such a paper befbte, and knew not what credit
to give to the assertion of Mr. Campbell, as there
were two defendants to the writ, Robert and John
Campbell, and ire knew not for which of them
the order might have been intended. He,
(the witnes9 then walked with
,Mr. Camp-
bell to Blackfriars-road. He then procured a
special iness.livr to go to Mr. Cao;pbeil's Attorney

tn get Ifni to Wilt-upon the Clic;fr.'mai of Ole Ccitlti• traduce. He went'on to "M'es.rs. D•in and tro Bland,
ao gct invrudions 'how to proceed; and sa* Mr.
Pan, vvho'Conc! Avecl the order in qiiesiion to be no
legal Protetiion against an arrest, and diretled hiM
not to discharge it till a proper inquiry had been
n'ade• He then went to P. C. JaMes, .Esq. the
Wader Sheriff, who said he had "never met with
such a case,. and &sired him to go to Mr. Burcheil,
the Snerilr of Middlesex. • He did so, when
lie was told by Mr. Burcliell, that . as the "House
Commons' was 'not in the Connry of Surrey,
s.l'e did not know that its jurisdiction extended
-(3 the place in which Mr, Campbell had been ar-
rested. He (Mr: Burchell) conceived that it would be
'Proper for him (the witness) to wait before he dis-
charged the arrest, till a new' order was issued for
Le attendance of Mr. Campbell, which' he thought
''might perhaps be made as yesterday. After this he
Went back to the- lock-up-house, and saw Mr.
Dam Dani pbell. He 'told him he had been to Messrs.
and Crossland s, and that Mr. Dan had refused
to discharge the arrest, and also of his having been Lb
The Under Sheriffs of -Surrey and Middlesex, &c.
8:C. The debt for whir2.l) the arrest was made was
',6901. and upwards. He was afraid when the
'older was produced, th'at it was a trick on the part
Mr. Campbell, and was afraid to discharge th'e
aftrest, lest it should bring ruin on himself and
- He had not 'tried to ascertain at the House
°' Commons if the order were genuine. He had
never before been nearer the House than the Court
,°lKing's Bench, in Westminster Hall. He had
,ntiy got home Ifefore the notice was kerved on
'in), by virtue of which lie attended the House that
day, or he mould have sought infotruation in the
manner stated by the Speaker—(by application at
the House of Commons).
Ordered to withdraw.
-Mr. EDEN Ilion moved, " That the Privilege of
the House be allowed- to Mr. Campbell, and that he
be forthwith discharged irons arrest."
Mr. WILsoN was as anxious as any man to main-
ta,in the Privileges of Parliament, but he conceived
that, as there had been no intention to dispute them
n the present occasion, he did not think they should
be re(rarcled as infringed by the arrest of Mr. Camp-
htli.

Mr. EDEN felt there could be no doubt on the
question before the H .use. As Mr. Campbell had
bgett ordered to attend the 'Committee at one, and
'as passing by the Horse Guards at five minutes
alter twelve, nothing could be inure probable than
that he had returned for time document he had for-
gotten.

Lle CHANCELLOR Of the EXCH EQU ER said, if the
'its had been bona fide on his way to the House,
'ts privilege ought unquestionably to be extended
t® ; but his being found at home might natu-
-1.44 enough 'tad the Officer to suspea, when the
Order wds ploduced, - that it was some trick, if the
than was pa,sliz the Horse-Guards at twelve o'clock
and wera home, as he had stated, for a paper which
tie had forgotten : all this might be considered as
11' Progress, towards his attending the Committee,
ftt)d the privilege of the House ought to• 5e extend-
rtl to hint. He conceived it must be admitted, un-
less the veraci y of the witness were questioned,
that he was entitled to the privilege the House.
l‘Tr. Wrisobt observed, he had been somewhere
t'se all the morning previ,us to h;s.passing the Horse
uards- at twelve o'clock, on business not conned
with the Committee.

Mr. LocxuAaT thought, the Order of the House,
'which was in his posSeslion, ought of itself to have
Protected him from an arrest.

The question was then put and carried, and the
arrest disehArged.
Mr. EDEN was of opinion that no censure was de-
served by the unfortunate Sheriff's Officer, and he
should therefore net propose to proceed with any
verity against his ; but he thought Mr. Dan, the
Attorney, i.tight to be ordered at attend to receive
a rein-imand for the language which he bad held
with respeet to the order. He would, therefore,
Move that Mr. Dan be ordered to,attend.
The SPEAKER wished to know if the Hon. Gen-
tleman would pursue this motion before the House
decided on giving an order for the attendance of
liiudson again to morrow.
Mr. STEPHEN, before Mr. Dan, was orJered to
attend, wished to observe that there had appeared
Ito intention on his part to infringe the priviieges
°f the House. lie would put it to them, if when
the amount of the debt was considered, it could be
expeaed that any man would take upon I:.,uself the
heavy responsibility of ordering a discharge of the
!"treat, unless he was certain that the order would
justify his doing so.
Mr. TIERNEY thought Mr. Dan ought at any rate
to be called to their Bar, add told bow the lAW stood
to that respea.
Mr. C.ADAIis offered a few words on the subjea,
but was nut distinctly heard in the gallery.
The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER said it was
question of fad, and was of opinion that no prima
facie case was made against. Mr. Dan, and that, as it
did not appear he- had any disposition to treat the
the privileges of the House with contempt, it was
nut necessary that he should be ordered to attend.
Mr. TIERNEY thought if nothing farther were
(lone, and it appeared on their Journals that no steps
viere taken in consequence of such a breach of pri-
'ilege,At torn ies might hereafter refer to this case, and
tell those offendiorina similar._ manner, that it was
Of no consequence, and no notice would be taken
of it by the House.
Mr. OWLN, when the responsibility of the man
Who discharged an arrest'was considered, thought a
fair excuse appeared for Mr. Dan. It seemed there
was no Christian name mentioned in the order, and
therefore it might well be suspected that it was in-
tended for another Mr. Campbell, and that the
Person arrested attempted improperly to . take ad-
.vantage of it. He thought enough had been done,
to assert the privileges of the House, and -hoped
they would give the parties concerned no further
• trouble.
- .

Colonel -13ismao understood Mr. Dan had said,
" Don't mind the order of the H.use, but keep
your prisoner." He thought he could not say this
ignorance, and that consequently a farther in-
cy was necessary.
[The Short-baud writer's notes of .the evidence
Were here read.)
Ur. PONsoNBY agreed that this was a question of
faa;but thought the attendance of .I.l.lr.ain necessary.,
as he had doubted w !tether 'or pot an order. of -the
House could lenti

, . .
..
If he stdiild- apkar to have doubled not the area
. ...
of an order of the House, but whether the order
produced were genuine, or if he had doubted Who.,
ther Mr. Campbell was the person entitled to its
proteEtion ; he thouqht there would be but one opr-
nion in the House, that he should be - discha.ged.—
Since, however, Mr. Dan had been stated to have
doubts on the subject, it was proper that he should
be ordered to attend to state on what those doubts
were founded.

The 'SOLICITOR-GENERAL thought it appeared
that_.ll/Ir. Dan, considering the circumstances alto.
gethr, wished to have the opinion of Counsel, be-
fore he discharged the person; but if it was thought
necessary to have an explanation ftom his own
mouth, as to whether he disputed the authority of
the House, or only the authenticity of the instru-
ment, he should have no objection to- his being

Mr. W. WYNNE said, the, a& was a manifest
breach of privilege, and those who state the- case
mast favourably
.for Mr. D.m, must own that there
was at least great doubt in his expressions. If the
motion before the House was, that he should be
taken into custody,'what had been stated by the
Gentlemen opposite would have great weight, but
they did notgo the length of disproving the proprie-
ty of au order for his attendance.

The motion was then agreed to, and Mr. Dan
ordered to attend to-Morrow:

Mr. Hindson was also ordered to attend again.
Another motion was made for the attendance of
Mr. Burcheli ; but, after a few words from Mr.
\Vynne and Mr. Lockhart, who suggested that his
opinion should be looked on as a private one, he not
being concerned in the case itself, the motion was
not pressed.

Mr. PONScNBY moved for an account of the num-
ber of Bank of En4land Notes presented for pay-
ment since the suspension of payments in specie,
and refused upon the ground of having been
forged.

• Mr. BARING slid he saw no objettion to present.
ing such Rt-turns; but thought it would be better if
the Right Hon. Gentleman would give notice of it
for to•tuorrow.

Mr. PONSONEY stated that he had no obje&ion,
provided the Right Honourable Gentleman oppo-
site would fix the s-:cond reading of the Bill re-
speaing the Paper Currency for Thursday.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEOUER assented,
and Mr. Ponsonby gave no►ice'tpr to-worro A'.