The Sun.
London, England, 1840-01-31 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, J 31, 1840.

proceedings of last year had brought the person of the So-
vereign perhaps rather too prominently forward in the po-
litical conflict. He said that nothing could be more
dangerous, or contrary to all their feelings of loyalty than
thus to involve the authority of the Sovereign, and no
thing could be more contrary to all constitutional maxims
than to engage the Crown personally in their discussions.
He had been very anxious to state the grounds of the vote
which he was about to give. He thought the present Go-
vernment was not in a position effectually to administer
the affairs of the country. He did not mean to blame
them on this score—they were so opposed by the House of
Lords—(Cheers)—and by the educated classes—( Cries of
" No, no," and cheer,)—that their hands were absolutely
tied—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear")—and they were in-
capable of carrying out those measures of progressive
reform which the Right Hon. Baronet would be able
and willing to carry.
Mr. HANDLEY would not trespass long on the
House. The Honourable Baronet who brought for-
ward this motion, had said he thought it his duty
to give his reasons for having no coalidence
in the Government, but he ought to have gone farther. He
insisted not only on the removal of Ministers, but on the
accession of Hon. Gentlemen opposite, and it was there-
fore his duty to show their claims to public confidence. The
public ought to know more completely what had passed in
that House. The public mind ought to be disabused of the
calumnious and gross misrepresentations which had been
circulated during the recess—the public ought to know
whether that portion of the House who would support this
motion agreed in opinion with the Right Hon. Gentleman.
He wished that Right Hon. Gentleman would inform the
House if he, who in 1829 passed the Catholic Relief
Bill, would now consent to make the " No Popery" cry
a stepping stone to power?—(Cheers.) He trusted
also that the Right Hon. Gentleman would explicitly
state if ho were prepared to go so far as to justify the
language used by his followers at Canterbury and at
Ashby—(Loud cheers)—he trusted he would go further,
and give some information as to what was the mode of
legislation which he meant to adopt with regard to Ire-
land, whether he meant to govern Ireland as a conquered
province, or as a free and independent portion of the Bri-
tish empire.—(Cheers.) Notwithstanding the taunts of
the Right Hon. Baronet last night, he would still main.
tain that the present was a time when it was desirable
that Government should receive every possible support,
in order to enable it to suppress the disturbances which
now prevailed. Had one ground been advanced
0 prove that if the Hon. Baronet were advanced to office,
there would be one Chartist less, with the exception of
those now about to be hanged ? He maintained that in
such an event there would not be one Chartist less. Were
those proceedings and disturbances peculiar to the present
times ? Did the House recollect the halloo raised to the
Government of 1830, when he recommended them not to
truckle to the perturbed spirits of that day ? The Hon.
Baronet bad not only stated that Government did not pos-
sess the confidence of the country, but had actually charged
them with participation in the recent outbreaks which had
occurred. That charge was most unfounded; and he would
challenge any measure brought forward within the last
half century that could be compared to the Reform
Bill. Did he recollect the incendiary disturbances which
not long since had desolated many of the rural districts ?
How had they been dealt with ? And, on the contrary,
had not the present Government grappled in a commend-
able manner with those who had ventured to disturb the
public peace ? He would impress upon them to inculcate
to the people the great moral lesson that they were the
most independent who had to depend on their labour, and
that they were the best men who could earn the most
wages. Did he recollect bow much the wages of labour
had been curtailed by the operation of the Poor's Rate
under the old law ?—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable
Baronet had made a charge about the Corroder;
being made an open question. Now, however he might
regret to differ with many of her Majesty's Ministers, he
hoped that the making it an open question would be the
means of carrying it ; at all events he thought that was
a question which should be fairly left to the consideration
of all parties. But were they to expect unity from the
government of the Gentlemen opposite? He could not
forget the period when the unsuccessful candidate for De-
vonport turned round on his own principles ; and it was not
long since Sir George Murray had sent in his adhesion to
the Corn-law Advocates. What prospect of unity then
presented itself among the Right lion. Baronet's party ?
It would be as presumptuous as 3t would be unnecessary
for him to enter into the various measures of her Majesty's
Government after the powerful address made by the Right
lion. Baronet ( Sir George Grey). But he had one ob-
servation to make as to the want of confidence in that
Government. He (Mr. Handley) would look to the past
policy followed by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite,
for as a tree was known by its fruit so were men known
by their works, and those of that party were known
throughout Europe. It was to him a matter of the
greatest consolation, whatever other difficulties might be-
set the Government, and notwithstanding the statement of
the Duke of Wellington, that no man could predict a pe-
riod of six months' peace to Europe, we were still at peace
with all the Continent. The only charge brought by the
Hon. Member opposite of any weight was the agitation of
the Hon. Member for Dublin in Ireland. Hon. Members
on the other side would, he contended, take the weapon
which he so powerfully used out of his hands by a return
to a proper system of justice and policy towards
Ireland, —( Hear, hear, hear.) For his part, he reposed
the greatest confidence in the Secretary of State for Ire-
land, and he would entreat Hon. Members to view the
question now under discussion in a proper light. That
question was, did they wish to see Gentlemen on those
benches desirous of carrying out useful and constitutional
reforms? If they did then he would call upon them to unite
against the common enemy by voting against the motion
of the Hon. Baronet.—(Cheers.)
Sir A. DA L RYAIPL E said he had known Mr. J. An-
derson of Brighton, and he would say that the attack which
had been made upon that gentleman was most unwar-
ranted. He (Mr. Dalrymple) had great respect for his
opponents in Brighton, and he was persuaded that no step
could have been taken calculated to give greater offence
in that town, than the attack which had just been made
upon Mr. Anderson, and a better speech he had never
heard than that with which so much fault had been found ;
but the part to which he believed particular objection
had been taken was a quotation from Mr. Burke, in which
he stated that the question of the Church was one
which intersected all our institutions. Before the Gallant
Member alluded to had made that attack, he ought to have
made himself acquainted with the speech to which he had
referred. What had Mr. Anderson said—he complained
that a Roman Catholic had been appointed to the office of
Secretary to the Admiralty, That Mr. \Vise and Mr.
Shiel had also been appointed tooffice. The competency
and talent of these gentlemen was not denied—the grounds
of their being Catholics was not the ground of objection
raised against them—it was that they had shown themselves
adverse, not only to the Established Church, but to the
law, as evidenced in their opposition to the payment of
tithes. He heartily concurres in the resolution. Since
1823, he bed been a constant supporter of the Right Han.
Baronet ( Sir Robert Peel) and he intended to continue
that siapport. He had declared that intention to his con-
stituents, whose wish it was that the present Government
might be displaced, to make room for the Right Hon.
Baronet.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said he rejoiced to hear the
statement of the Hon. Member for Brighton, because
it had overthrown every semblance of the charge which
had been alleged, that there was any disposition on that
side of the House to repeal the Roman Catholic Relief
Bill. He did object to the appointment to office of the
three gentlemen who had been alluded to, not be-
cause they were Catholics, but because they had
distinguished themselves by their opposition to the es-
tablished institutions of the country, and for the
same reasons he would have objected to the appointment
of Churchmen had they distinguished themselves in a simi-
lar manner. He objected to those Hon. Gentlemen being
appointed to office, not merely because they were opposed
to the Church, but that they were equally opposed to the
laws on which the security of that Church depended, and
had put themselves forward as the advocates of measures
of violence to its best interests. He had heard
with pleasure the Honourable Member for Lincoln
when he stated that he rejoiced that the Corn-laws had
been made an open question. He believed that question
would be greatly assisted by being made an open ques-
tion. They lived in times in which it might be said,
as it properly had been, that we were in a state
of transition, for the bonds of society were threatened
to be rent, and at such a period it was
the duty of every man to stand forward. The
Honourable Gentleman the Under Secretary of State,
whom he did not now see in his place, had stated that
they were bandying backwards and forwards the charge of
having originated Chartism. He had attributed Chartism
to the agitation on the Poor-laws. The Hon. Member
might have had the candour and generosity to recollect,
that perhaps in the history of the warfare in that House,
there never was a question which had been so strenuously
contested as the Poor-law Bill. He might have recol-
lected that there were many Hon. Members on both sides
of the House who were most strenuously opposed to the
measure. lie for one thought that in that law there were
many things which ought to be altered, but be did not think
that in the present excited state of the country Government
could attempt to propose anything of the kind. At the
same time be had net hesitated in his position to go week
after week, and take hi.; share in the unpopularity connected
with the administration of that law.—( Tory cheering.)
They had heard much of the principles of the present Go-
vernment, arid he believed there were some among them
who held the five points of the Charter.—(oh ! and a
laugh.) He would take the liberty of !reading a short ex-
tract from a speech delivered by a Chartist at Kersal Moor.
" Why have you left your arms at home ? Because the Bo-
roughreeve and Authorities of Manchester placed the
greatest confidence in the loyalty of the people." So
it would appear that even the Chartists appeared
to be influenced by sentiments of loyalty.—(Cries
of " Name, name.") The speaker was the Reverend
Mr. Stephens.—( Oh and great laughter, in the midst of
which Mr. Hume exclaimed, " He is not a Chartist, but
a Poor-law man.") Why he (Mr. S. Herbert) found that
the person designated as the incendiary Oastler and Mr.
Stephens were identified.—(Mr. O'Connell, " They are
both Tories;" great laughter.) He would now turn to a
subject which had been scarcely mentioned in the course
of that debate, but which he hoped would be gone into
more into detail before it closed—he meant the state of
the finances of the country.—( Hear, hear.) Day by day
they had an increasing expenditure, with a decreasing re-
venue ; and he objected to the Government for having, at
such a time, introduced Mr. Rowland Hill's plan._.
(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He had no hesitation in saying
that he approved highly of its ingenuity, He gave
Mr. Hill every merit, while he gave the Government the
whole demerit of introducing it when the revenue was de-
ficient, and when its most sanguine advocates admitted
that there would be a loss to the country of at least one
million sterling. It appeared to him that there never was
a period when it required more ingenuity to devise any
tax as a substitute—they could not take off a tax which
fell almost exclusively upon the rich, and they must im
pose some which must fall with much greater heaviness
upon the poor. What was still more extraordinary with
that defalcation, they had, year after year been constantly
reducing their expenditure. But it should be borne in

mind that the present Government, although it
deprecated all idea of patronage, had established
numerous and expensive commissions in that period,
and, in fact, as in the instance of the eight naval captains,
they had resorted to arts which were unknown in the
darker ages, end in the most unblushing times of Sir
Robert Walpole.—(Loud cheers.) Much had been said
of the differences of opinion which existed on his (Mr. S.
Herbert's) side of the House, but it was scarce necessary
for him to refer to the differences that existed on the oppo-
site side from the Noble Lord's finality of the Reform
Bill, down to Mr. Owen, of whom the Noble Lord must
have been thinking, when he said that no Sovereign had
ever been m:re insulted than her present Majesty.—(Vehe-
ment cheering from the Tory benches.) They could not for-
get that a large portion of the supporters of the Government
held opinions subversive of the Constitution of the country,
and their confidence was not in the strength of the Go-
vernment, but in its inefficiency.—( Cheers.) He gave
full credit to the Noble Lord opposite and his Colleagues
for nut partaking of the opinions of that party ; but when-
ever a hostile demonstration was made on them, the No-
bin Lord called upon the Hon. Member for Finsbury and
his party for their adherence, while that Hon. Member,
with his hard biting mother wit had said, as he understood,
on a former occasion, that he supported the present Go-
vernment as they were made of squeezable materials.—
(Much laughter.) The Noble Lord said to that party,
" True, we,wish to preserve the institutions you are bent
on destroying ; but look at the hostile party opposed to us,
who would give you only practical reforms, but no real or-
ganic changes; give us the assistance of your 30 or 40,
and enable us to repel the hostile attack."—(Cheers, and
laughter.) lbidimus quocurtgue procedcs.—( Hear, hear.)
The Right Hoo. Gentleman the Secretary-at-War had
gratified the House with high-sounding periods and ex-
traordinary eloquence, and bad given them an historical
and philosophical dissertation upon every Ministry except
the present ore—(A laugh)—and his (Mr. H.'s) only
regret was, that the speech ended before the subject
began. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that England
bad been a mother to the minority, and a step-mother to
the majority, of that House. But it appeared to him
that a change bad taken place, and that she was now a
mother to the majority, and a step-mother to the minority.
When they crushed bigotry and intolerance on the one
side, it arose upon the other; and notwithstanding the de-
fence that had been made for the Marquis of Normanby's
administration he thought that it could be considered no-
thing but the old system of governing one party by the
other. He (Mr. H.) wished to see a Government which
knew no distinction of creeds.—( Cries of " Oh, oh I") He
congratulated the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
Devonport upon his consistency upon becoming a convert
to the Ballot, although he admitted that he was not con-
vinced of its efficacy ; and if converts were made in that
way from the pressure of external circumstances, were Hon.
Gentlemen surprised that there should be great alarm for
the safety of the institutions of the country ? The Right
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh insinuated
that there were divisions upon his (Mr. Herbert's)
side of the House upon very important questions.—
(Hear, hear.) There was a division, it was true,
upon the question of their privileges which an Act of Par-
liament would settle in a week. There was a division also
upon the subject of the Corn-laws, but would the Right
Hon. Gentleman compare the opinions of 320 gentlemen
in Parliament with the opinions of one out of Parlia-
ment ?—(Loud cheers.) If the Right Hon. Gentleman
had any hopes arising from these dissensions, his hopes
must be vain—they were a compact phalanx—(Much
laughter)—and in all sincerity they were taught to main-
tain their opinions unflinchingly, and to estimate at its
proper value the character and station of the Right Hon.
Gentleman, who acted as the leader of that great party.
It was to him they looked, and it was to him the Noble
Lord, the Member for Northumberland, would be
obliged to lock, when time had shaken still further his confi-
dence in an Administration which he considers too co ntemp
tible to join but not too contemptible to support.—( Hear.)
It was to the Right Hon. Baronet that that Noble Lord
must eventually look, and to him the country would look
for the defence of institutions under which they had en-
joyed more happiness and rational liberty than any coun-
try on God's earth, and who stood as the only bulwark be-
tween democratic encroachments and the Throne.
Mr. WARD had not intended to allude to any matters
of a personal nature, and he should have left the question
of the admission of Roman Catholics to the Government
to be settled by the Hon. and Gallant Officer near him
and his colleague; but the Hun. Member opposite had
given some importance to the question by stating
that it was the only semblance of a fact
that indicated the desire or intention of the
Conservative party to interfere in any way with the
Roman Catholic Emancipation Bill. He knew nothing
of Mr. Anderson, except as being an eloquent and able
man ; but he must say that there was a most remarkable
coincidence between the observations of the Rev. Gentle-
man and the religion of the party alluded to. There
might have been objections to the Hon. Member for Wa-
terford on other grounds besides his religion, and he would
remind the House that the Hon. Member for Tipperary
never belonged to the Central Board of Education. With
regard to the Hon. Member for Kildare, whose name had
been alluded to, he had stood forward most manfully in
the breach against the Repeal agitation, and had thereby
lost his election, and yet it had been stated of him, although
no objection had been ever taken in that House on
the ground of h s talents, on standing for the office which
lie held, that his religion ought to have been a bar to his
appointment. Mr. Anderson said that he spoke simply on
the broad relation of Chinch and State, and upon that
broad relation of Church and State, the Rev. Gentleman
had brought a grave charge ; that the place of Mr. Wood,
who was a conscientious member of the Church of Eng-
land, had been filled by Mr. More O'Ferrall, a Roman
Catholic.—( Bear, hear, hear.) It would appear as
if that word implied a complete disqualification for
place and power. He did not wish to carry the
Brighton Question any further, although it was an ob-
jection recognised in every place but that House,
where it was very inconvenient to admit it. Hon. Gen-
tlemen found it convenient to disavow the degrading and
shabby, as he ( Mr. W.) had once called it, agitation of that
question. The Hon. Member for Wakefield had never
said a truer word than when he admitted that both parties
were put upon their trial by that motion. It was per-
fectly true. The motion was an appeal to the country on
what principles the Government was to be conducted—
upon that appeal he would stand or fall. In the present
case there was no proportion between the means and the
end proposed. Nothing was more important than the
end—.nothing more lame and impotent than the conclu-
sion. The lameness was very conspicuous—the change
was most magnificent, and calculated, if established, to
change the destinies, not only of England, but the
world. The lameness was in the ground upon which
the charge was made.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.)
Hon. Gentlemen opposite had suffered this case to rest on
two speeches which he (Mr. W ) could not better charac-
terise than by using the words of an Hon. Member near
him, namely--that those Isere two of the most unanswer-
able speeches ever made. There was not a word in either
of them which could call for any observation or opposition
from him. The Hon. Member for Kilmarnock had made
a most ingenuous argument in favour of his own views—he
said he was afraid that the House might be swamped by
statistical details, and yet he himself entered into details
which he (Mr. Ward) should say ought never to have in-
duced him to vote for the side he had joined. His whole
argument proved that the state of the country became
every day more alarming, and that the wants of 9.5,000,000
were increasing. He had traced those evils to the present
Corn-laws, and yet he was united to a party who opposed
their repeal. No Government, he said, could heal the
wounds of the country except one by whom Liberal
principles were applied, and yet he ended by saying that
he should support the vote of want of confidence in those
Ministers, nine-tenths of whom were in favour of a change
in those laws—( Cheers from the Ministerial benches)—and
yet he would give a vote to a Ministry which would not
make any change in the Corn-laws, as the Right Hon.
Baronet had told them last night. That Right Hon.
Gentleman had the merit of being the first to place the
motion then before the House on what might be called
intelligible grounds. He had certainly made an indus-
trious, laborious, and clever speech, as he always did.
It was not a speech of good nature perhaps—for good na-
ture was not the Right Hon. Baronet's fault.—( Hear,
hear, and laughter.) The Right Hon. Baronet had called
his (Mr. Ward's) attention forcibly, he might say, to take
part in the present debate, by alluding to so humble an in-
dividual as himself.—(Hear, hear.) No inan had the
power to give so much force as the Right Hon. Baronet
to different or conflicting statements. He worked them
out with the greatest skill—they were in his hands like the
minute carvings of ancient oak—work which modern art
in vain endeavoured to imitate. The Right Hon. Baronet
stood unrivalled in his art, and he bad certainly given them
last night a most characteristic speech.__( Cheers from the
Opposition Benches.) That speech had ranged over a
long period of years—ever since himself had, he believed,
the honour of a seat in the House. The Right Hon. Ba-
ronet had repeated some words of his (Mr. W.'s) regarding
a difference of opinion among his party, so long as two
years ago, on the Appropriation Question. He should
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separated themselves from the Ministry. While he consi-
dered all this, he could not, with any regard to common
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into office. It was true that there were differences on
that side of the House, but there were differences quite as
great, as he could show, on the other side. The Right
Hon. Baronet had given facts, and those facts which he
had found fault with, were the very things which had in-
duced him (Mr. Ward) to give Government his support
on the present occasion.—(lronical Opposition cheers.)
There were differences of opinion, he allowed, on his side
of the House, but there were greater differences among
his opponents. His party had in addition a middle point
on which they might meet.—(Opposition cheers.) The
principles which the Right Hon. Baronet bad most blamed
iu Ministers were precisely those which placed him
among the followers of the Noble Lord on that occasion.
—( Opposition cheers.) He thought that every one who
had ever listened to him in the House should allow that as
long as the Noble Lord had advocated finality, he (Mr.
Ward) had withdrawn his confidence from him; and if the
present motion had been broueht forward las, year, he did
not know but he should have voted with Hun. Gentlemen

opposite, or at all events be should not have voted tof themselves sufficient to draw down the indignation of
in favour of Ministers. ( Hear, bear, and cheers heaven on this land.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
from the Opposition benches.) He knew that all this He did not exaggerate, he spoke of facts of which he
vas very pleasing to the ears of Hon. Gentlemen oppo- was cognizant. At a meeting of a Society in his ( Mr.
site, but those were the foundations of union on this side Ward's) own county, Lord Verulam moved a resolution
of the House.—( Loud cheers from the Opposition (he did not know whether that mast excellent and Hon.
benches.) His party had formed a middle point on Gentleman, the Member for Hertford, who took the chair
which they might agree. Could the same be said of Hon. on that occasion, was mime of the uncharitableness that
Gentlemen opposite? He would ask where the Hon. was then exhibited) inculcating on the whole country
Member for Oxford, and the Noble Lord the Member for humiliation, fasting, and prayer—prayer in public—
North Lancashire, could find that middle ground ? He prayer in private—prayer in the family—prayer in the
should like to know if the Member who was not opposed cottage—and all to avert from the land the
to the passing of the Catholic Emancipation Act, and wrath of God, because the Hon. Member for Tipperary
the Right Hon. Baronet by whom it was carried, could had been introduced into the Privy Council.--( Laughter. )
agree on that subject? He would repeat that his party He would tell Hon. Gentlemen opposite, for they seemed
had a middle point, and that point was progressive re- to be ignorant of what their party had been doing—
form.---( Loud cheers from the Opposition benches.) (Laughter)—that that was not all. The book of Reve-
He should say more—it was not progressive reform as the lations had been quoted—the most abstruse pages of
Noble Lord the Member for Northumberland meant it, God's word had been perverted in order to make them
which was a nominal reform without progress, but the apply to the miserable political disputes in that House;
real bona fide progressive reform.—( Hear, hear, from the and he would ask the Hon. Member for Droitwich whether
Opposition Benches.) Would the Noble Lord ( Stanley), that was a proper spirit in which those questions ought to
who was taking down his words, hear his definition of pro- be discussed ? Why the Hon Member himself did the
gressive reform ? It was a definition of Reform to which same thing in his speech last night, for he told the House
nobody on the Benches below him could feel it inconsistent that the country wanted a firm, a steady, a Protes-
to accede.—( Cheers from the Opposition Benches.) They tant Government.—( Hear, hear, and cheers from the
did not ask the Noble Lord the Member for Stroud to con- Opposition.) • What did that mean, what did those
cede any opinion of his, he already conceded open questions. Hon. Gentlemen, who cheered that expression so loudly,
—( Loud and long-continued cheers from the Oppo- mean ?—(Ministerial cheers.) Did they mean a system
sition Benches.) The Right Honourable Baronet the exclusive of Catholics from power, or did they not ? If
Member for Pembroke had told them last night that they did not, what conceivable pretence had they for using
open questions were but a mor) skilful means of avoiding the word Protestant Government ?—( Opposition ironical
a duty which statesmen should perform.—(Here some chums.) If they did mean it, he would tell them they
Hon. Member on the Opposition benches observed that were no legitimate partisans of the Right Hon. Baronet
these were not the words of the Right Hon. Bart.) Mr. the Member for Pembroke, who disavowed last night an W y
ard proceeded to say, that the passage was quoted from intention, however remote, of tampering in any
way with
a speech of Lord Brougham, and it was, he believed, as the Catholic Relief Bill.—( Hear.) However, he would
follows ;—" That open questions were a means resorted to leave Hon. Gentlemen, whom be left impaled on the
by statesmen who preferred keeping their places to doing horns of this dilemma, to justify themselves to that
their duty." He (Mr. Ward) took an entirely opposite House ; they were throwing dust in the eyes of the coun-
view of the case; and he thought that open questions try, if they meant exclusion. If they meant that no
were necessary steps to great changes.—(Loud and re- Catholic was to be admitted to power because he was a
peated cheers from the Opposition Benches.) If he Catholic, let them avow it.—(Loud cheers.) He
wanted a proof of that, he should find it in the speech of could understand that, but it was not a principle which
the Hon. Member for Wiltshire, who had just sat down, such a statesman as his Right Hon. Friend, the Member
who told the House distinctly that Catholic Emancipation for Edinburgh, designated, would dare to apply to the
could not have been carried to this day if it had not been practical concerns of the country.--(" Hear, hear," from
made an open question.—( Cheers from the Ministerial Lord Stanley.) If the Noble Lord cheered that, how
Benches.) What was there inconsistent in a Radical did he mean to keep his partisans in order?—(Ministerial
like himself taking the fittest means to advance the cheers.) Would the Hon. Baronet, the Member for Ox.
objects which he had in view ?—( Opposition cheers ) ford, say whether he meant to repeal the Emancipation
What was there inconsistent in the Noble Lord, the Act or not, for he was going to support the vote
Member for Stroud, admitting manfully, as he had done, of want of confidence ?—( Hear, hear.) Let him
that he could not keep his party together on any other say that there was no division on the other
terms.—( Vehement opposition cheers.) He had admitted side, and that all they wanted was to form the strongest and
that that concession was wise, just, and necessary, to the the steadiest Protestant Government.—( Cheers.) He
great majority of those with whom he usually acted.— would not apply in the debate instances of that kind. Hon.
( Ironical Opposition cheers.) The misfortune of quoting Gentlemen were pleased to disclaim them—that was part
Lord Brougham was that you could not find a statement in of their tactics. They appealed to the "No Popery " cry
one of Lord B.'s speeches which did not contradict some on the hustings, but they appealed to the Catholic Relief
statements of his in another speech. In a second speech Bill in that House.--(Cheers ) Why at the last election
of Lord Brougham's, in which he commented on a decla- for Newark, as his Hon. and Learned Friend the Solicitor-
ration of the Noble Lord the Member for Northumber- General well knew, Mr. Thesiger, a most distinguished
land, that he had consented to the introduction of the member of the Conservative party, had told the people of
Ballot as an open question, not with the view of forward- England that it was because the Government were the
ing the measure, but for the purpose of defeating it, Lord minions of Popery that he opposed them.—( Loud
Brougham, in commenting on that statement, says that, cheering from the Opposition side of the House.
in his view, as an ordinary statesman, he did conceive They had not even spared Royalty itself, for it had bean
that when seventeen or twenty names were added to a di- hinted that there were fair grounds for the change of
vision on a question, for which they could not have voted dynasty that occurred iu 1668. —( Cries of " Oh, oh.")
before, that question must be advanced. It was because That had not been disavowed, at all events, by the Gen-
' the Government had allowed the Ballot to remain an open tleman to whom the words had been attributed, although
question, through a just, wise, and necessary deference to a with feelings that did him the utmost credit he had
1 majority of their supporters, that he would give Ministers expressed his regret for the injustice that, under those
his vote.—( Cheers from the Opposition benches.) There circumstances, he had done to the Queen.—( Cries of
were undoubtedly other questions on which, as the Right " Oh, oh," and " Hear, hear.") He should not have
Hon. Baronet had said, there might be a difference of opi_ alluded to those things had not Hon. Gentlemen oppo-
nion between the Nuble Lord the Secretary for the Colo- siic talked of the schisms and divisions on his side of
Ines and himself. But the Noble Lord had a right to his the House, but they were nothing like the schisms and
own opinion as he (Mr. Ward) had to his, and nobody divisions there were on the other. Their opinions were
could doubt his integrity and his ability to defend his views. mach more deeply seated and extremely conscientious—
He found in a letter to the electors of Stroud that the they were all based on religious bases, and that
Noble Lord was not opposed to an extension of the 101. was the worst basis of all. —( Hear.) There were
household franchise to counties. The Noble Lord had nullifiers and repeaters on the opposite side, but they
already assented to the abolition of the rate-paying clauses. were not united.—( Cheers.) If he had wanted any
--(lronical Opposition cheers.) He was willing to con- other reasons than those which he had named in the
sent to a proper system of registration. He thought that earlier parts of his speech for the vote he intended to
the Member for Stroud and his party would not consent to give, he would have fount' them in the course which had
such measures. Ho did not want to distues the franchise been taken by the Conservative party on this question
question. It was too great to be discussed incidentally in during the last six months. Nothing was worse for the
the present temper of the times. He should say, however, safety, honour, and religion of England, than to revive
that be thought there was no man in the House—and he the distinctions of 1899. They could not do it—they
was sure the Right Hon. Baronet would agree with him— must admit the principle fully they must admit the
who could doubt the actual necessity of some measure principle of religious equality, if they wished the country
being resorted to conciliate the vast masses who were to be powerful— tranquil at home, and respected abroad
now placed hopelessly beyond the constitutional pale, Wherever he looked —to the outrages at New
whose passions were embittered by their exclusion from po-
litlcal power, which had thrown them into the hands of port, or the capture of Gituznee—he saw the
some of the most unprincipled adventurers, and some of 'Catholics and Protestants fighting together. He said
the worst of men. No one who knew the manufacturing with earnestness, that if they interfered with the present
districts would deny that Chartism began where the right arrangement, on them would lie the responsibility of
of voting ended. Would they make a barrier still greater dragging them down through every stage of national
humiliation ; disgrace would succeed, an they would
between those parties and the rest of the state ?
or would they not rather trust to some extension of be what they deserved to be—the laughing-stock of the
the right of voting, which would give men an interest in world.—( Hear, hear. )Lord STANLEY then rose and said--Sir, I have waited
the property of the country to which they belonged? The till this late hour in the debate, in the anticipation that some
Right Hon. Baronet told them that he was quite 'leis- other than the " first Cabinet Minister" who spoke—(Loud
taken in thinking that Government was behind public cheers)—would have attempted to answer the lucid, the emu-
opinion. He said, on the contrary, that they had given mentative speech of my Right Hon. Friend, the Member for
direct and indirect encouragement to the Chartist dis- Pembroke—(Cheers)—for in the absence of such a reply, I
turbances. The Right Hon. Baronet would permit him feel the ground cut from under my feet.—(Hear, hear.)
hThat
however, to say that he was the last man from whom those speech,t e mibnottisrq House,as itandid,
will the
euprinciplesrstil
loon,.
ewa'theiec
party
observations should have proceeded. He told the House gureta party
of this House—(lmmense cheers)—maintain that the
that the speech of the Noble Lord the Member for Stroud
°Government is not worthy of possessing the confidence of the
had been read at Chartist meetings, and had been pleaded
House, and, whatever the result of the division, that it does
as an apology for their outbreak—that speech, however,
not possess the confidence of the people.—(Loud and con-
had not been correctly reported. Would the Right tinued cheers.) Sir, I feel the sincerest respect for
Honourable Baronet now allow him to say that when the talents, for the honesty, for the zeal, in propagating and
the Chartists wanted something particularly exciting or supporting his principles, of my Right Hon. Friend (Mr.
inflammatory, it was not to the Ministerial benches they Macaulay,) who attempted to answer—(Cheers and laughter
applied. It was to the Conservatives they went back, and from the Opposition)—my Right Hon. Friend near me, (Sir
to the Right Hon. Baronet's former heresies.--( Cheers, James Graham.) I will not even say attempted to reply—
and laughter on the Ministerial benches.) A short time (Hear, hear)—for though itnhyßi
ght
Friend
c r e
r rin opposite
a - before the outbreak at Newport, his famous Privy Council said
it was
tion we
hadeaspiler to
plenty.—(Cheers.) reply than torecriminate—ofl-1
cers.) An eloquent essay—(llea',
speech, as violent, he should say, as any Chartist speech
that was ever made, had been read at one of the
hear)—but of answers to facts—of reply to arguments, easy as
it might be, there was not even an attempt.—( Cheers.) We
Chartist meetings, and read with unbounded applause. had a splendid historical review of the last half century, with
Did the Hon. Baronet recollect that the sponge was quite the exception only of the five years we are now discussing.—
a favourite with the Chartists—( Hear, hear)—that his (Laughter and cheers.) But in that luminous essay—that
arguments on the Corn-laws and the Currency had fur- laboured speech, of the only Cabinet Minister who has yet spoken,
niched the staple for many an article in the Northern Star ? the last introduced into the Cabinet, and therefore the best index
—( Hear, hear.) In fact, there was
li
the greatest possible of the principles of the Government, it appeared to me a some-
analogy between the political principles the Right me what dangerous course in the present state of the public mind,
Baronet then held and those of Mr. F. O'Connor
and the state of the country, especially at home, that the " only
was now the Chartist candidate for the West Rid ng of ,
Cabinet Minister"—( Laughter)—in discussing these topics,
i who
should have occupied the greatest portion of his speech in a
Yorkshire. He did not think, under those circumstances,
that it became the Ri ht Hon. Baronet to criticise the laboured eulogy on the benefits of agitation as the basis of good
g
Government. Of what was it that my Right Hon. Friend's
on the Ministerial side of the House. It aht exist between political men speech was composed ? Mainly of these two great principles,
pp that agitation was the mainspring of Government, without
( Mr. Ward's) opinion, the Radical party could not have a which no greatt, nfoausGefouNlemeasurte ever
in
,lhtadhb tireabout
eneoldunhteryashorueald
give than the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet.—(t
H ar, to foirneteheeesnufrdpeonreeo
it
was -esrsnemntenal
thatii' there e
hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet had told them what they,, pmaltitude of " open questions," so that there is no possible
might hope and expect; he had told them that he was op-
combination of discordant elements, which. if base and mean
enough to sacrifice their own political opinions, for the sake
Reform ; but the Right Hon. Baronet's definition of
posed to the Ballot, but that he was in favour of progres-
siveof accepting office, a Government would not be justified in
adopting to carry on the Administration. There has been
progressive Reform was similar to that of the Noble Lord's
no controversy of the facts of my Right Hon. Friend (Sir
the Member for Northumberland—namely, nominal Re- J. G). Up to this moment the whole of my Right Hon.
form, without airy progress at all. The Right Honour- Friend's statements—the whole of his charges—the whole of
able Baronet had also said a great deal about colonial his arguments—the whole ground be laid last night—stands
oy p lic , but, in every colony, the Church question was nnrefuted, untouched.—(hear.) It stands not only unrefuted
the great bar to all arrangements. Had it not been the and untouched, but better still—for though no second Cabinet
great bar to the settlement of differences in Upper Minister has come forward, a proximate Cabinet
.Minister—
Canada?t
And when colonial
questions were mentioned, if (Laughter and cheers)—has appeared (Mr. Ward) in support
he who, three short years back, he stated, had
he wanted any additional reason for the vote he was about of the :Ministry,
been ' guilty of the grOssesrteeter iversation be ever'
to give, he would find it in those words. He was indebted
menso cheering)—he comes fgerward, and grappling with my
knew—(lm-
personally to the Noble Lord the Secretary for the
Right Hon. Friend —or as I hoped, about to do so—by disputing
Colonies for having introduced a most useful and gene- his facts, by answering his arguments,—says the Hon. Mem-
ficial reform in our colonial system, which he had tried boas—" The Right ?lon. Baronet's facts are my facts—l stand
in vain to obtain from any Member on the opposite side, by those facts—his assertions, his facts, his positions, are my
The Noble Lord had adopted, to a great extent, the justification for voting confidence in the Government." Sir, my
principles recommended by the Colonial Land Committee, Right Hon. and Learned Friend the Judge Advocate-General, in
of which he (Mr. Ward) had the honour of being chair- his speech, which I listened to with the highest pleasure—( Oh,
man in 1836. The Noble Lord had appointed an from the Ministerialfh .benches)—because,i howevreerssemdumelain!
Emigration Board to work them out, although he might diiiffferranrkolm
and
iinn
aopv,m_aionmsiitieri they
dwereesireexipn
my had not yet arrived at the conviction that an full}
mer-taarn life to imitate—(Cheers)—because they were stated in
Parlia-
Act of Parliament would be necessary. He ( Mr. Ward)
manner,) and with a power worthy of the name he bears—
felt it would be impossible to give the plan a fair trial un-
—(Cheers)—a name of which I shall never speak here or else-
less an Act of Parliament were obtained. There was only where, without respect—(Che, rs)—my Right Hon. and Learned
one more question with which he would trouble the House, Friend (Sir G. Grey) commenced by asserting his great satis-
and that was the religious question which had been most faction that at length the Conservative party, departing from
wisely, prudently, and effectually tabooed. It had hardly the position they had hitherto occupied, were about to try the
been alluded to on the other side during the course of the strength of the respective parties in one greatcontsttheatr the
the
debate.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Baronet the Member commencement of a Session—which was to decide ~
for Oxford, had not come forward in this front rank of the one party or the other was worthy the confidence
of that' House.
battle
The Right Hon. Baronet rejoiced, he said, to see the Conserve-
for
five party taking a more manly course, instead of pursuing the
Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Colquhoun) who was a great Kent (Mr. Plumptre.)—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and he had looked in vain for the Hon. Member
line they had adopted of late years, of canvassing, of impeding,
of obstructing the measures of the Government in detail
authority on these matters, had made a speech in which (Cheers)—and he expressed his surprise that at no earlier
there was not the slightest allusion to any religious differ- period had this step been taken.—(Hear, hear.) Without re-
ences existing bet ween Hon. Gentlemen opposite. One ference to the speech of the Hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr.
word more to the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir James Gra- Ward), which gave a pretty good reason for a considerable
ham.) It was not with reference to the Corn-laws, bat alteration of sentiments since the last Parliament—(Laughter,
with reference to this religious question, that before his and hear, hear)—and who said, that if thisk motionhhaedeboeuend
constituents he (Mr. Ward) had taken the liberty of en- brought forward last Session, he did not -now that 1
ricking his vocabulary with one of the Right Hon, Be- have voted for the Government—(Cheers)—without referring
ronet's words. He thought it a word peculiarly applicable to that
etyir,
their discretion as to the
to the tactics of the party opposite. The Right Honourable exercising
Baronet called the Government a shabby Government opposition, are to take theiorppleosssitoinosn,,
forward their measures of those
howth
ey to
oppose. bring
—he (Mr. Ward) called the Opposition the shabby
—(Hear,
hear, hear.) But, Sir, if the Right
tHedonl. andl
whenfrom
Opposition.—(Dear, hear.) He did so because when, Learned Gentleman asks why we so longhesitfiaxed, ;Li _
during the period of a whole six months, without one frankly tell him—that it has ever been the
syllable falling from the Right Hon. Bart. opposite, who ciple of my
declared himself in favour of religious equality—without and of the party with whomnt, he never to endanger the
Right Honourable
acts, Friend (Sir Robert Peel)
unless at the same time they were
one word from the Noble Lord, the Member for North existence of anGeorytearkne e
Lancashire, they had tried a system of unprincipled agita-
Now I will tell my Right Hon.
prepared to undertake
cheering.)dmt responsibility of forming another.—
tion—( Cries of " Oh, Oh" from the Opposition)—they
had allowed it to be tried at all events—they had en-
)—that we have observed the feelings of the population sef
and Learned Friend that we have watched—( Immense cheer-
' couraged it with their patty—( Cheers from the Ministerial g
month—one
till's country—(Cheers)—and we know,. that one change after
benches)—they had worked it out in every town and vii- another—(Cheers)—weknowitteferros7 highenatuhtholrity—( Cheers)
lage of the empire, preserving to themselves the power, if —we saw it day by day ( C
they could not profit by it,when Parliament met,of coming to by one—the mosti respectable,— the steadiest—m adalyter
that House and disavowing all that had been said, doning. them_ 'nthereckless, downward course the
suing.—(Tremendous and long-continued cheery
i n
We
vr -ii
He ( Mr. W.) went to Sheffield shortly after the visit of sin
careering.)
adn
Ida.
I; --
two Rev. Gentlemen, Mr. M‘Neil and Mr. M‘Ghee,who
(kcnonhigeve.rtsh.e) efveectksnothwatthhatavGeenbteleemnenproopdpuocseidte
guish for something like a Government.--(Cheering ) But
pant, and England.—
were paid, he believed—( Opposition cries of " Oh!")
who were the apostles of calumny, and his opinion of them guish
let not my Right Hon. and Learned Friend flatter 'himself
was that they were retained for the special purpose
that if in this battle we should be beaten, as I hesitate not to
founding and dispensing every species of uncharitableness,
say, on a division, we certainly shall—(Cheers)—let not my
calumny, and falsehood in the name of the Protestant roll- Right Hon. Friend flatter himself that there will be the slight-
gion.—( Opposition cries of " Oh, oh," and Ministerial.nths eat alteration in the course which the groat Conservative party
cheers.) Those gentlemen who bad had theirdwayi resolvedhrethat to ursue.—(Tremendou3 cheers ) I assure
to allow h
respect during the vacation,would now be so goodmeasure. byy measure—(Cheers)—step by step—(Con-
an answer to be. given to them. He had aright,am, we will eers)—failure after failure—(Cheers)—we will watch,
connect this agitation with Conservative p Eycheck,
We
Will control the Cabinet.—Long conti-
oh,ften
areOnserva- nued cheers.)
and cheers.) The leading Members of. the V% e will support them, when (as they often
fire d have
themselves with it.—( enewe . done) they are glad of our support—(Renewed cheer-
criestire party had connected
ld Ler i Wharncliffe was mg)—and no consideration shall restrain us from thus pur-
of " Oh, oh !") At Sheffield
t Reformation Society, suing the fixed line of duty which shall be the great, the
the President of the Protestant
individuals were received united policy of the Conservative party—( Continued cheers)—
by which those two very
The
Honourable Mem- from observing your measures, from confounding your plans,
and entertained.—( Cheers. )
cheers from obstruct-
) stated last night
from obstructing, if you please—(Loud cbe
bar for Droitwich (Mr. Pakingtohn
the Cabinet ing, if you please—( Cheers)—and from throwing out, as wee
that he knew of no instance in wine t . promo- have done—(Cheers)—measures which we believe to be
tions had been received or commented upon in improper detrimental to the best interests of the country.—( Loud cheers. )
the Hon. Member's conscien. • end of the Session,
terms. Now,
if that was . , We will, from the commencement to the
We will leave to
tious opinion, he must have .
been remarkably uninformed, closely watch every measure you introduced. .
n had to wield the
sbeen the standing others the name of power, while we are content .
because those Cabinet promotions
Sir, my
for the Hon. Gentlemen D authority of the Government.--( Hear, and cheers.)
dish—the staple commodity _
throughout the
posite 1 recess.— II o'
- Right Honourable Friend, the Judge Advocate, came
whole ( ear, hear.).
boldmanly front and said, " I meet this
appointments, the Popish Privy I forward with a and a .
Those three atrocious
e—l invite a vote o
with
f confidence."
Secretary of the Admiralty,question with a direct negativ . a direct
Councillor, the Popish Seer and No, he did not go so far, ‘, I meet this question .. .
Treasury, had been the Popish Lord of theheld up as negative," but he dared not go so far as to say that the division