The Sun.
London, England, 1847-01-26 00:00:00

BILLS.

The Earl of CLARENDON moved the second reading
of the Corn-laws and Navigation Suspension Bills. The
Noble Lord entered into a brief statement of the causes
which led her Majesty's Government to introduce these
Pleasures. Great distress prevailed throughout the
world, and the prices everywhere were so much
on an equality, that the throwing off the
4s. duty which remained oa the importation of foreign
corn was a measure which the circumstances of the ge-
neral famine, and the great emergency which had arisen
in Ireland, rendered necessary. He deprecated the idea
'that the duty would go into the pockets of the dealers
in corn ; but, even allowing that some portion
of it did go in that manner, it did not furnish a
sufficient reason why they should not try to alleviate
'the distress by endeavouring to enlarge the supplies.
With respect to the navigation laws, he would trouble
their Lordships with a few observations. Vessels arrived
with a large quantity of grain at Marseilles. The
Americans were taking up all the ships they
could procure, and the consequence was the
freight was considerably affected. They did not
apprehend any great advantage from the removal
of these laws, but they would have the satisfaction of
thinking that they had done all in their power to miti-
gate the evils that at present existed.
Lord BROUGHA.M would not, under the circum-
stances, make further objection.
The Marquis of SALISBURY agreed with the Noble
Lord opposite.
The Earl of MOUNTCASIIEL said, as these mea-
sures were not to be permanent, he should decidedly give
them his support.
The Bills then went through Committee, and were read
a third time and passed.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said he now rose
for the purpose of submitting to their Lordships the
motion of which he had given notice on a former occa-
sion, and in doing so he thought he should be wanting
in respect both for their Lordships and of consideration
for the unfortunate country itself, if he were not
to lay before their Lordships a full statement of
ths facts of the case. The Nehle Lord then proceeded
to comment upon the magnitude of the calamity which
'had befallen Ireland, and said he should read to their
Lordships a calculation which would show the immense
loss sustained this year in Ireland. Now, taking the
valuation of each acre of potatoes at 101., the total loss
shown to have been sustained in Ireland by the
late visitation amounted to 11,350,0001., while it was
shown with equal clearness in the oat crop, the loss
amounted to 4,660,000/., making a total deficit in the
ordinary supply of food to the am .untof about 16,000,0001.
sterling. The conduct of the landlords of Ireland had
formed the subject of varied and strong opinions, but
although exceptions might be taken to some, yet, within
the last 10 years, there were others e ho had left no means
untried to amehorete the condition of the country.
Fault had bsen found with them for allowing the popu-
lation to be dependent upon such an uncertain and low
description of food as potatoes ; but he thought this was
not the most opportune time to discuss that question.
It was as little appropria'e as finding fault after a
calamitous fire with the sufferers, because their
building was not erected with marble or Portland stone.
If they had not been able by their own effin't to ward
off so great a calamity, it vim equally true that no
Government could prevent it. In considering this, the
nature of this question ought never to be
forgotten, that it was not a question of
money, but one of food—'bod for a nation,
which, whatever system might be adopted for
its distribution, conla never hive been crested by any
Government, yet that was just the existing necessity.
But, supposing money could have remedied the evil, he
asked how much would have been necessary? Suppose
ten millions of money would have been sutliei. nt.
But the money market was a market infinitcYy sensitive
to demand, so that the effect would have been, as soon as
the necessity of these ten millions had been heard of,
that the very next day other purchasers would have rushed
in, and the ten millions must have grown into 20 millions;
and then again, the iecrea-ing demands, and the in
creased price of money, into fork)/ millions. In fact,
Government was , the worst agriculturist and the
worst merchant and therefore increased obstacles
always lay in its way in the ease of meeting
such an emergency. The Noble Lord said he
would refer their Lordships shortly to the
measures which had been adopted by the Government
at the beginning of last year, before speaking of meet
sures which were now to be proposed to mitigate the
present evil. The Government at that time, when the
Labour rate Act was passed, did not anticipate so great
a calamity as that which had fallen upon Ireland, and
therefore the measures they had proposed were merely
temporary, hoping they might have been able thereby to
bridge over the difficulty into another year. The prin-
ciple of that Act was to unite profitable employment
and poor relief; an object which was not by any means
easy to be obtained. It was contemplated at that time
to employ the poor only on work, which would prove to
be permanently useful, and this was eff eted to a cer-
tain extent, and so far the result was beneficial. But
a panic was stirred in the popular mind, fears and
dread of the impending calamity grew mere pressing,
and from that time the beneficial employment of the
people failed. The panic that resulted when the extent
of the distress became fully known was such that the
people were reduced to a state of recklessness and de-
spair. Some idea of the extent of the machinery em-
ployed in administering relief may be formed from the
following statement :—There were employed in carry-
ing out the provisions of the Labour-rate Ace 385
engineers and surveyors, 2,832 'cheque-clerks, 6,894
overseers, 132 assistant clerks, and 495 pay-clerk., making
between eight and nine thousand individual,. Ile would
ask them if, with such an immense number of persons,
it was possible to exclude a great amount of abuse
from the operation of that law ?—(Hear, hear).
With respect to the B card of Works itself, he
thought they should speak with the greatest respect,
as he believed they had given the most undoubted proof
of their efficieucy. This much, however, could nut be
said of those whom they had occasion to employ ; but
the emergency which arose put it out of their power to
set otherwise. He had now brit fly stated what
were the vices of the system, and the motives which
influenced Government in advising those measures.
lie did not feel surprised that applications were made
that the Government advances should be applied for
private purposes. They had concurred in the funds
being applied in that manner, and he was therefore
gratified to say that a very great amount of relief
had been given by Mr. Lebouchere's letter, which
act he trusted would be legalised by their Lordships.
There were 930 relief committees established over the
country, many of which had to some extent received
relief from the Government. Much had been said about
the Government vessels, in reference to which he wished
to observe that the Admiralty could not interfere with the
course of foreign trade, but with regard to the distribution
of food, their efforts had been attended with the greatest
success. There had been .15 of her Majesty's vessels
employed in this manner, and before a week elapsed
there would be five more.
Lord M.OUNTCASHEL—WiII the Noble Lord have
the goodness to state the amount of food which has been
distributed in Ireland?
The' Marquis of LANSDOWNE—The Noble Lord
must see that his question was not relevant to the state-
ment he was then making, but he would refer to that
on another occasion. The amount of tonnage of the
vessels thus employed was 28,232 tons, and the
steam-vessels employed were 8,373 horse-power. He
bad also to state, though the details might appear insig-
nificant, that there had been no means omitted to meet
the evil, and there had been every endeavour made
te establish soup-kitchens, if means had been placed
fur that purpose at the command of her Ma-
jesty's officers.—(Hear, hear.) The best workmen
were monopolised by the system a6opted by
the Government, to the detriment of private em-
ployers, and
consequently, no doubt, great evils were
generatel from diverting labour from that channel—
cultivation of the land from which eh:Me they could
expect to derive permanent improvement. The individual
employer or proprietor was the one 'most interested,
the one best calculated to employ labour most bene-
ficially in the country. He would now call attention to
the plan of' Government. He alluded to the ;
loan at 31 per cent. for twenty-two years
to the proprietors of land in Ireland, and they
were also to be empowered, if they did not wish to
pay the principal, to pay for it six and half per cent,
tor he would be enabled to pay it in any way most conve-
nient to themselves, and by that means relieve themselves
at a trifling cost. It was
dr9inafee. but proposed to have extensive
was not intended to interfere
with peisas it • •
were a -e speculation in these works, for there
would be griZeraany cases in which private individuals
that in c
It was proposedcarrying out these works.
carrying out of certZ,liiere it was essential to the proper
proprietwoorks a power should be given
to compel other
le ssnese or other causes
who,
either through care-
irnef.led to
al co-operate or to
bear their fair share of the
to be assessed
for the joint expenses. Tee crtte jau:l result of et's e easures, in
his opinion, would
in Ireland but wouldbs not one proprietor
o amount
both himself
if he so chose, to employ a condition,
of labour in a manner profitable to vast
and the labourer, and he did not think sot
landed proprietary of Ireland as to imagine that, the
these facilities, few indeed but would avail the'se:iptethemselvess
h
e them immediately, or, at all events, within a
short time, and thus, from one end of the country
to the other, give employment to the mass of la-
bour, for which, in the ordinary modes, there Was
no call. This measure was one of the most important
which it could fall to the lot of her Majesty's Govern-
ment to bring before their Lordships, and it was one
which had long occupied his deep and earnest
attention. Pending the beneficial results to be I
anticipated from these measures, there must ensue !
much scarcity, and even famine, among those who
were infirm and without employment, and the I
Government proposed that food should be distribute 1

amongst such persons, but it was determined that no
person was to receive relief, except those who could not
possibly be relieved in the workhouse, and in aiding
those persons the establishment of soup kitchens, in the
most destitute districts, was considered as the
most effectual. Serious apprehensions were entertained
with respect to the ensuing harvest, and from autho-
rities which he had before him, he was sorry to say those
fears appeared but too well founded. This arose partly
from an unaccountable indisposition on the part of the-
labourers to leave the public works for the farm, and
partly from the inability of the small landholders to buy
seed. Now the Government proposed to advance loans
to the latter, at the rate of 3i per cent., to be secured
upon the crop, and repaid at the end of the present
year. The Noble Marquis then read extracts from a
letter in support of the assertion as to the danger to be
apprehended if immediate and effective means be not
taken to aid in the spring planting; and said, the next
subject to which he had to call their Lordships' atten-
tion was, the reclamation of waste 4lands. On this
subject, aware as he was of its importance, still
he thought the breadth of land alleged to
be reclaimable was rather exaggerated.—(Hear, hear.)
But considering the number of persons, who, from indi-
vidual observation, had noticed the extent of lands lying
waste, which were capable of cultivation, it had been
thought proper by the Government to introduce a
measure, authorising a grant of money to be laid
out on the reclamation and improvement of these
lands. He admitted that such a measure ought
to be introduced, and carried out with great
caution—(Hear, hear, from Lord Brougham and the
Opposition), and especially so, in order to prevent such
land when reclaimed giving rise again to the cottier
system.—(Cries of "Hear, hear.") He said it would
be for their Lordships to consider, when the subject was
before them, whether this evil could be guarded against.
The Government proposed to avoid that evil by reclaim-
iug the land and allotting it not into small but into large
allotments, which would be rented under such coadi-
tions as would effectually prevent the incurrence of such
an evil. Another topic which had caused much discus-
sion in the country, and been frequently before
the attention of Parliament, was emigration.
That was a subject which had lately occupied the
serious consideration of , her Majesty's Govern-
ment, and he for one wished that some stimulus
could be given to the people of these realms on that
subject, but he felt the difficulty which impeded it. But
he was of opinion that inducements might be offered
the emigrant on the other side of the Atlantic, by offer-
ing him, when once transported across, a security for
subsistence and employment. The Government had already
experimented in this way, having applied a very small
sum to the purpose of aiding emigrants when they went
out, and the results had been most beneficial, as their
Lordships would see from the correspondence which
would be laid before them. It was the wish of the
Government to increase that small sum, in order that
every emigrant when he reached the land of his destina-
tion should have reached the end of his toil, and that he
should have some security for obtaining such a situation
and employment as he might desire. He said, perhaps,
their Lordships would be surprised to hear the strong
disposition which existed in this country and especially
in Ireland in relation to emigration. It had been as-
certained that during the past year 32,000 had landed
at Quebec and 970 at St. John's, two-thirds of whom
were Irish.
Lord STANLEY—The number for last year was
100,000.
Lord GREY—It was about 110,000.
Lord LANSDOWNE rose, and said he was obliged
to the Noble Lord for the correction, but the number he
was stating was a return for the colonies of England.
He felt it was the duty of Government to encourage and
to aid the emigration of the people. There was one
other subject which had occupied the attention and
partly the efforts of Government with respect to Ire-
land. He referred to the Fisheries. He said Govern-
ment had established on the north coast—the coast of
Mayo and the neighbouring counties—three curing sta-
tions for poor fishermen who were not able to procure
the same advantages for themselves. Government '
wished to continue these which had been attended with
most beneficial effects, and to erect more round
the west and south coasts ; and they proposed
further granting a small loan to the land-
lords for the purchase of machinery, boats, and
tackle, which loan; would be on the same terms as
the others, viz.: at 3f per cent. and repayment Tiletei
he said, were the measures which Government propo4d
immediately introducing before the attention of Parlia-
ment. He was aware that any attempt to make a per-
manent provision for the poor, was attended with the
greatest difficulty, and though he considered that out-
door relief was rather an unsafe principle to introduce
into Ireland, yet he thought there was a class of people
to whom this might be extended under certain regula-
tions; he meant the sick, the aged, and the infirm. It
was also considered that by extending the repayment of
the first instalment of the money advanced by Government
from next spring to next summer assizes, it would be
exceedingly advantageous, and afford those who had
applied for it ample time to make provision, There
was one other subject to which he would refer to, he
meant the enabling those landlords who had mortgages
on their property to sell portions of their property to
pay them off. That was the last of the measures which
the Government contemplated to introduce. He had
thus thought it necessary to put their Lordships fully
into possession of the intentions of the Government ;
but, much as he expected from them, be only regarded
them as auxiliary to individual exertion. The Noble
Lord concluded by proposing that copies of the corre
spondence of the Board of Works and the Commissariat
Department in Ireland should be laid upon the table of
the House.
Lord STANLEY would not trespass on the attention
' of their Lordships for more than a few minutes, fur after
the able speech of the Noble Marquis, he more than ever
adhered to the opinion he had already expressed, that
any attempt to discus the measure proposed by her Ma-
jesty's Government would be premature. He thought
that the course which had been pursued by her Majesty's
Government, or rather the manner in which it had been
proposed, was very impartial. There was no Member
of their Lordships' House who did not feel the magni-
tude of the evil with which they had to deal. They
should also look to the effect of this measure upon Ire
I,nd, not only at the present moment, but as a remedy
for the evils to which the country in future might be
subjected, with a view to restore the proper tone of
society in that country, and to ensure a more prosperous
condition for the future. He fully concurred with the
Noble Marquis in considering the interference of Par
[lament last session in the Labour Rate Act
as most iejurious. The consequence had been,
that by that interference, employment had been turned
solely to public in,tead of private works. It had been
stated that eight or nine Government functionaries had
le en appointed to superintend the employment, and for
the efficient supervision of looking after these works they
had been intrusted with money to employ persons who
were not provided with other labour, or who were
auxiou• to ob:ain such employment. 'ln many cases
this had operated most injuriously, and some days
ago he had received a letter from a gentleman
in Ireland, stating that under the Act of last
year coreederable mischief had been effected, and
that a heavy expenditure incurred unnecessarily,
some of tha pay clerks and other officials having disap-
peared with the money.—(Hear, hear.) He concurred
also with the Noble Marquis, that whatever might be
the dangers and difficulties at the present moment, that
it would be nothing compared to what might be expected
to take place if there were au: abandonment of agricul-
ture in Ireland. At the same time, he did not take the
same gloomy view of the extent of the evil complained
of as the Noble Lord. It did appear that there was a
groat remissness in the agriculture in Ireland. He
would now take the liberty to express his
strongest opinion that her Majesty's Govern-
ment would have done better if they L had
sacrificed some of their opinions to political economy.
He agreed fully with the Noble Marquis, that the pre-
sent was a question not of money but of food—(Hear,
hear)—and provisions and not money should be sup-
plied by Government. The corn had got into the hands
of petty local speculators, by whom it was purchased.
New, that was not a description of persons with whom,
in his opinion, Government should not interfere. He
thought that there should be depots established
throughout the country, in places that were remote or
difficult of access, for the sale of corn at fair commer-
cial prices, and the effect would have been to withdraw
the corn that was stored up, and enable the people
to obtain it at fair bat remumerating prices. He re-
peated remunerating prices—not famine prices. He
had been told that her Majesty's. Government had no
right to interfere with such, but that night, to his utter
astonishment, the Noble Marquis told the House that
her Majesty's Government had already done this, and
intended to carry this plan still further. It had been
stated that there had been established 950 relief cone-

mittees. His Noble Friend had said with respect to the
employment of ships, that, what he (Lord Stanley) had
contended for; and that her Majesty's ships of war and
war steamers had been employed in carrying corn
to the different ports. •Now all that was in-
consistent with the principle of non-interference.
On the subject of emigration he entirely concurred with
the Noble Marquis, that it was a subject surrounded
with difficulties of no ordinary nature, and one with
respect to which it would be hard to devise any plan
likely to produce a tangible or practical effect on the po-
pulation. He felt that abuses were likely to arise from
the proposed plan of advancing small sums of money to
emigrants to British colonies, because many of those who
most successfully emigrated had funds of their own; or
were going out to meet friends or relatives, and the re-
sult of the proposed advance would be, that few,
if any, would go out on their own resources.
With respect to the question of poor-laws—decidedl-
i
one of the most important of those under con-
sideration—he should not long detain their Lordships.
The Noble Marquis had laid much stress upon the bene-
fits likely to accrue from the fact of enabling the land-
lords to relieve the incumbrances upon their property,
by raising money in the way of a loan. Now this would
be most advantageous, if there were a simularity of
circumstances existing in Ireland to thosa prevail-
ing in England ; but, he regretted to say, that
after a landlord had expended a sum of money upon the
improvement of his tenant's property, he found it
utterly impossible to get a due and fair increase of rent
fors the increased value of the land. He could state from
andm
hpi present
twledge that there were many landlords at the
moment
abntiinr4yto
Ireland,imprwuhvoe
theirpossepiss:je
dperbtotsh, the
meansbut
they found it impossible to do so with the slightest pros-
pect
thought their Lordships
as to the beneficial effect
of getting a tair return for their outlay, and there-
foreenabling the landlords t a said to be likely to arise from
Ills ought not to be too sanguine
o borrow money in the manner,
proposed.o There existed in many
and for the purposes,
bolding under old
parts of Ireland a class
all the benefits
leases and at low rents, wilt:llra
head land-
from the land, to the total excluj
lord, and who, for the inereaseonof
rile:lthe
promoted a large sad accumulatingtheir own profits,
pauper
Population

upon the land, the head landlord having no control
whatever over the mode. of-tillage, letting, or anything
else connected with the management of the property. It
might be said, and was said, that this state of things
arose from improvidence. He would grant it. But then
they must bear in mind that it was improvidence of a
very ancient date. He alluded to these circumstances to
show the great difficulty of guarding against what in
England would be most easy of
.consummation, and he
hoped her Majesty's, Government would, before they
threw. additional burdens on Irish property, take into
consideration the propriety not only of imposing bur-
dens upon the head landlords, but also upon those per-
sons to whom he had just referred, and who received
the whole benefits from the soil, and were the
means of creating a surplus and pauper population.
He said he would strongly advocate the advancement of
capital on indisputable securities, for the purpose of
being laid out on remunerative works ; he meant on
railways. Considering the present state of Ireland, and
the political insecuriry of the country, advances of
money could not be mace in a more beneficial
mode than this, where remuneration might cer-
tainly be looked for, and the persons on whose
security the advances should be made would superintend
the employment of it, and in a more efficient way than
could be done by the Government. Such a measure, if it
should be deemed practicable and desirable by her Ma-
jesty's Government, would more than any other call
forth the capital of these railway companies, and at an
earlier period than it was.likely olherwise to be the case.
He suggested this measure to her Majesty's Govern-
ment as one most likely to call forth capital into profit-
able application in Ireland, at a moment when Go-
vernment was about to withdraw their relief by employ-
ment of the poor; and what was more, it was less likely
to drain off labour from agricultural- employments. The
Noble Lord said that he would offer no ooservations on
the measures of the Government, and he might say
what ho had already said before, that from the House
generally, when the measures came before the House,
they would not meet with any captious objections.
Lord BROUGHAM said the Noble Lord who had
just sat down had spoken of objections to the measures,
he (Lord Brougham) for one, whatever might be his
opinion of these measures, had a strong wish to know
the amount of money comprehended by these measures,
the number of millions proposed for the loans, the soup
kitchens, and the out-door relief, and also the amount
of loan that would be required, and the interest, and
how that was to be found? whether the taxes which
had been handed down from preceding Governments,
heavy enough already, were not to be increased to meet
this demand, and even the property-tax itself, whether
it too would not be added ? He had heard that morn-
ing that the amount comprised in the Government Bills
was 15,000,0001. He hoped that his Noble Friend would
surely give him some idea of the amount. Ho agreed
with his Noble Friend that the Government ought not
to be corn merchants, agriculturists, or traders,
but he went further, he thought they ought
not to become loan contractors. That was a
new capacity for a Government, it had generally been a
debtor,' but it was to become a creditor now, and would
be felt to be the harshest of creditors. • Why, the
Government proposal was. to lend .money to -the Irish
landlords at 31 per cent, interest ; but as soon as the
Irishman heard that it was to be 6 per cent.- if the loan
was to be sunk, and 31 per cent. if it was not to be sunk,
and to continue 31 per cent. for ever and ever ; he was
sure no loan would be taken on such terms. He was
afraid that this, like many other' measures of the Go-
vernment, would prove a complete falure, as much so as
the crops of last year, or rather as a more complete
failure than that, he meant the Labour Rate Act. The
Noble Lord went on to state that a friend of his
rather than submit to having an improvement of his
road, such as the Government staff would have made, im-
posed upon him—rather than have the road unmade,
which was the word descriptive of the reality—he asked
what would be the expense of the improvement, and on
being told that it would amount to 1801., he immediately
drew out a cheque for the amount and begged they
would leave his. road alone. Such, in fact, was the ope-
ration of this Act—an Act which was as lurnbersome is
its working details, as it was inefficient in
the general result. Why, there was one functionary
employed at present in the superintendence of the works
for every 30 labourers. The staff of overseers was im-
mense, and yet it was so necessary to extend the works,`
that the staff also must be increased; for without continual
oversight, it was impossible to prevent jobbing in Ireland.
On this subject I beg to ask the Government a question. Do
they mean to erect a regular staff of bailiffs in order to carry
out this design ? If they did, they would cause the
continuance of one of the greatest evils that Ire-
land hasever suffered from, and property would
be split out into still smaller quantities than it is
now. He might recur to the old .distich that every rood of
land should maintain its man, but in Ireland every half rood
was made to maintain its man, and that was the consequence
why that the money to be paid now would never satisfy the
necessities of the country. It was said that the money now to
be ,sent over would never meet the occasion, and his (Lord
Brougham's) impression was that if they sent over 40,000,000/.
the same would be the case. Indeed something like the latter
sum had been suggested, and on the suggestion being made
another worthy individual had immediately said, " Why, you
have not asked half enough. They owe us 60,000,0001."
It was said that Parliament intended to extend the poor-law to
Ireland, and shut the door of the workhouse by granting out-door
relief. Why, instead of shutting the door they were opening
the door, and had already discovered that the poor would do
anything rather than enter it, and if they carried out the
system of out-door relief, as it seemed was proposed, they
would commit one of the most fatal mistakes that could pos-
sibly occur; but he trusted that his Noble Friend had no such
unhappy intention. See what the effects already were even to
the extent at which out-door relief was already administered.
Within five days, between the 16th and the 21st of this present
January, as he had learned from an official friend
of his, no less than 2,200 men, who were paupers from
Ireland, 2,056 women, and 897 children, making a total of
• more than 5,200 paupers, had been brought over from that
country. And these were not brought, as some gentlemen had
ingeniously supposed, in order that the owners of the steam
vessels might realise a freight by taking them back again ; but
one vessel alone, the Rover, from Sligo, had been paid 75/. in
one day, for bringing over a freight f paupers. This was,
indeed, a growing evil, for, in, five days, the detail of those
who received casual relief at Liverpool, was truly frightful.
On one day, Monday, the number was 18,095 ; on the next
day it was 19,200 ; on Wednesday it was over 19,400; and
on Thursday it was 22,095, who received relief in that
one parish. Then it was evident that there was no exception
to the sad rule that pestilence followed in the train of famine ;
mit that the greatest exertion was not made by the wealthy
and charitable who could 'administer to the wants and neces-
sities of these people ; he did not mean to say that it was, but
the official friend of whom he had spoken had taken additional
premises for the erection of a fever hospital. And such was
also the case with Manchester and Glasgow. They were not
a bit better. Let them, then,.extend the poor-law to Ireland,
unless they intended to bring over the whole of the poor popu-
lation. It had been said that Ireland was for the Irish, but it
seemed that England was to be for the Irish also. But
let them have fair play. if. Ireland was to be for
the Irish, let it keep its own poor. , Let them make their
election. But in the present plan, he, at first, saw no
chance. He did see that there was likely to be a great
advantage for one class of persons—the place hunters—there
was to be a large staff of that class for superintendents of the
public works, superintendents of labeurers, farm overseers.
superintendents of police, and he did not know how many
be-ides. Whether these gentlemen would be ready to work
or not, he did knew, though he was quite satisfied of one
thing—that they would be quite ready to be paid. This was
the class of pensioners of whom they were quite likely to have
sufficient. Then there was another subject, which was
well worthy of consideration," that was, how was the
interest of the millions of these loans to be paid?
If that interest was to be paid, he trusted that the property-
tax, as well as the assessed taxes, would be extended to Ireland.
He did not see why the man who had 1401. a year should be
exempted from the charge, for- the safety and protection which
he enjoyed from the State, any more than he who had 160/.
Neither did he see any reason why a line should be drawn in a
direct line down the Bris•ol channel to separate mortgages, for
there
was a great probability that as soon as the mortgage was
removed, that the holders of estates would begin to mortgage
amstala
hn:looo:9aek again._(
making
ut-T-nha
gttenob(l
/see::
aghaplr inrrseigips.nihhrpc;Aignrn.)l responsibilities
ooel:ertsHhdp.dewoe
which
na dgosslyb
naii
adopted
bdiec
ehni
blneii
nfotbi teeredsmi
o,
another
dearoian.
ndnd
that
not
Pitt
ofbtouioutttr
burdens
allegedmho occasions,
a nrak6:v e,
gave
anylas 001
oataghchargeszaaithat
ioosnfft
thefr form
sooner benetfihtes
dtntmlSahuof ikeiewsaen i
nsu trayreaTye,nyhaderreiea.ntmr laved their measure from the character of a per-
manent measure, the better. If it were to be made a permanent
mightnsee
all
ne hteeh s tthnhreeitnesus consideration,
narer necessary
st„ that
temporaryeo shoulde
tnhtsecuredes
owoccur t
being
nmeasureotuhlinterestthe
wait
there
sTeidtrhseeni
xywtootamsat
taxation. Mr. Percival affirmed the same thing in 1811, as did
also Lord Granville in the same year, contradicting the opinions
which he had entertained in 1795. Mr. Fox and Mr. Baring
(now Lord Ashburton), also entertained the same opinion. In
the terms of that loan it was expressly stipulated, that no Com-
missioner, or any Member of Parliament in either House,
should receive one farthing of the Exchequer loan, and he
trusted that some such self-denying clause would be inserted in
the Bill for the loan now proposed. At least his Noble Friend
would not take anything.—(Laughter.and" Hear, hear," from
the Marquis of Lansdowne.) Oh, he knew that his Noble
Friend was one of the wealthiest individuals in En rope, and
one who did not need such assistance.—(Laughter.)
One great advantage would be, to relieve the tenants
for life from the trammels in which they were now held,
for it might prove of immense benefit to those who were yet
unborn. But it was not money but food that the Irish people
required. The people were dying by thousands daily for the
want of food. They wanted corn, meal, something to eat,
which money could not immediately procure. Now,i on the
west coast of Ireland there was an abundant supply of some
of the finest fish in the world, and they had only to send
nets and tackle to secure the food ••required by famishing
millions. They wanted but nets and tackle to bring this
fish to market ; and they only required this assistance to ob-
tain au abundant supply of the most wholesome and nutri-
tious food that any one could desire. This would save the
corn and meal. He was sorry. to say, that he was old
enoughtotbroeocgoblltecttbatthe
tbscaerrecltyougobft thtoe
beyeara l7leilt.gal
and he
covenant such as existed at that time when the loaf of bread
around family
waswas pdleabeaerdreodnfrtohme ttaobul ee ,h
ra,
gn d the an
it
as mseorevbatas and e
ifit had
dey one
been gold
andNo et
be ee
nwbaesAlloweddealt
it toon
tt oi
nu crhe
ai
ttt,
iebtuetdt hgen
aumtaisttieera ot
of tahl
le
and none had more than their share, not a crumb was lost.
Some such rule might be adopted now, and it would prove
highly beneficial. Again it would be of the utmost benefit
i of which a great f a restraintwererputt upon the
of flour w
useolpastrays
used,inth o
the consump-
tiona4still
r could
soups, no tfish o attain,
any would
ifouartobeeierab,enanefidt wbooduldaccrue resources
tof terhebihebightbeerirclpaoosserser neighbours
oehrobooyuerds
Ho had taken the liberty to throw out this suggestion,
Nen his recollection of 1800. He could assure their
othernutrimentrefrain from
with
vegetables usig bread
inasd t but
a instead.
use
Lordships that these measures had been very beneficial.
He would wish, however, to ask of the Noble Lord
whether he was able to give any estimation of the amount
of supply ?
impossible at present to state how much.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE -said it would be
Lord DYSART said that while he was not of opinion
that the Government should go ransacking all the
granaries of the world in search of grain, he did think
they should have established depots. But, coming
to the
immediate state of the country, there was unfortunately
no doubt that the greatest scarcity existed in Ireland. He
had received a letter from a Noble Friend of his,
who had visited the scene of some of these appalling