The Sun.
London, England, 1847-01-23 00:00:00

TILE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JANUARY 23, 1847

Is .........................-..........--
the brewers to resume their consumption of malt. i that under all the circumstances, the probable claim had
If it had been admissible to use plain sugar '
ln breweries, I been made out for Od. or 10d.; but the Chancellor of the
considering the present high price of malt, there would Exchequer of that period had not thought it ad-
nut have been any necessity to raise the price of
.beer, a visable, from the state of the revenue, to grant
circumstance which was to be regretted in an the remission, and he should, be believed, meet the jus-
article which was so extensively used by the Lice of the case by making the differential duty ls. and
labouring classes. Even in ordinary times, the Gd. This would give a difference of 6d. to the
measure, he was persuaded. Ns oultl,.piove of great foreign produce. The House was aware that the
benefit to all parts of the 'United kingdom. In the duty was the same in the three countries of
present state of the country, and the high price England, Ireland, and Scotland. A favour was
of malt, he believed that had the use of sugar shown to Ireland and Stotland, and rum bore a less
been allowed, the increase in the price of beer duty in those two parts of the United Kingdom, than
would not have taken place. Recently the price when introduced into England. In England the duty
of malt was 84s. per quarter, it had risen to 88s., and was 7s. 10d., in Scotland 3s. Bd., and in Ireland, 2s. Bd.
he was informed last night by a friend that it had risen Ile proposed to equalise the duty.-(llear, hear.)
as high
as 90s. Taking it, however, only at 84s, the A paper had recently been laid before Hon. Members,
price of sugar NV a 3 475. per cwt. NOW 180Ibs. of sugar, which would afford them every information upon the
at 475. per cwt., cost 755. 6d., and will produce a quantity subject, and if they would just take the trouble to refer
of beer equal to that yielded by a quarter of malt; so by to the 48th page of that paper they would find an account
the substitution one advantage would be gained, equal to of the rum consumed in Scotland. In Scotland the
the extent of Os. upon every barrel of strong beer. At amount had beenreduced from 43,000 gallons to some few
the present moment, therefore, the effect of the mea- 7,000 or 8,000, while in Ireland, from the commencement
sure would be to have a considerable quantity of sugar to of the present century down to the present day the cone
be used in breweries and distilleries, and the tendency suraption had fallen off from 1,000,000 gallons to only
would be to reduce the price of beer and to increase its some 12,000. Ile thought this sufficiently made out
consumption by the people. It was not his be- a case for the reductions he was about to propose. Now
lief that there would be, in ordinary times, if this he proposed that rum should be suffered to be imported
measure was permanent, a competition between into Scotland at a duty of 4a. 2d., and into Ireland at a
sugar and malt. If they took 02s. a quarter, the price duty of 2s. 2d. ; but he also proposed that some differ-
of malt in ordinary years, there could not be a euceessful enee should be made in the duties on spirits dis-
competition between that article and sugar, unless the tilled in these countries, and runs made in England.
latter was 355. per cwt. He was fully persuaded Ilk impreseinn was that the effect of these alterations
that while the measure would have a tendency at the would be that the consumption of rum would be in-
present time of liberating a considerable amount of creased in the sea-port towns. He believed that the in-
grain for malting, cheapen an essential article troduction of a good wholesome spirit would prevent the
of consumption, it would exercise no injurious manufacture of a spurious article. This introduction of
influence on the growers of barley.-(hear, hear.) It a sound spirit would benefit both the producer and the
was his intention, therefore, to introduce a proposition consumer. No doubt grave objections might be urged
that brewers should be allowed to use daty•paid sugar against the inequality of the Custom duty as levied in
in brewing. With regard to molasses, he was not pre- different parts of the empire. Rum might be, for in-
pared to make the same concession as in the case of stance bonded in an excise warehouse in Glasgow, and
duty-paid sugar. He found that all the Acts which had transmitted to any public warehouse in England by sea, I
passed upon this subject prohibited the use of molasses, but only by sea. These regulations he hoped would '
and although sugars had been permitted to be prevent smuggling, while at the same time he appre-
used in the process of brewing, the duty on molasses hended that the excise revenue would not suffer. On
was at present ss. 3d., and it was generally as- the whole, he did hope that this would be considered
sumed that 2521b5. of molasses was equal to by the parties interested as a fair settlement of the
a quarter of barley. Assuming, therefore, that 252 lbs. question. lie did not believe that he should gain or
of molasses was equal to a quarter of malt, they would loose upon the balance of his proposition. 60,0001. was
require to impose a duty of 9s. Bd. instead of ss. 3d. the amount be calculated he should loose on the reduc-
It was very easy to say they did not know which article tion on the price of rum last year ; but the importation
ought to be allowed to the brewers, for there were of rum during the last five months so increased that the
various articles which the brewers were prohibited duty was more than made up, and therefore he was con-
from having, but they allowed them to have a vinced that the revenue would not be injured by the
certain quantity of molasses. It would be very measures he had proposed. The price of sugar
difficult to distinguish between that which they had had been lower last year than during the preced-
allowed to them and that which had not paid the Excise ing one, and there was an increased import-
duty. It-would be indispensably necessary, in order to ation of rum, during the thirteen months end-
protect the interest of the revenue, to establish those ing the sth December, 1845, was 635,000 gallons,
minute surveys of brewers' stock which had been discon- and during a similar period, in 1846, it was 789,000 gal-
tinued for so long a time, but it was not necessary that lons, making an increased consumption of 134,000 gal-
any regular survey should take place in order to prevent lons. This, of course, made up for the reduction of the
this evil, as it would certainly cause a great loss to the duty on spirit, and he was sanguine enough to believe,
brewers. Therefore he did not think it would be a boon that any further reduction in the price of spirit would
of any great value to the West India sugar manufac- greatly increase the consumption in Scotland and Ire-
turers. It must also be observed, that the process of land, especially in the seaport towns, the inhabitants
the manufacture of sugar was daily improving, and the of which were principally in the habit of consuming rum.
consequence of that improvement was a diminution in But in point of fact the distillation of grain was almost
the quantity of molasses; and also the greater quantity completely stopped in Ireland. He held in his hand a
of rum that was produced the less the quantity of mo- letter from an Irish distiller, dated the 14th of January,
lasses, and theretore greater facility would be given to the which stated that by far the greater portion of barley
West India planters by the introduction of rum and sugar. which would be used would be foreign. Never-
He then came to the question of distilleries. By the theless, in the present state of circumstances there
law at present sugar might be used in distilleries, were additional reasons for the passing of these mea-
at least it was lawful for any distiller to give notice sures, and he hoped that the House would do so with as
that he intended to distil from sugar, but it was little delay as IV&S consistent with a due consideration
incumbent upon him that some time should elapse of them. (The Right Hon. Gentleman was almost in-
between his distillation from sugar and from grain. He audible in the gallery, from the commencement to the
could not use them nor distil from both at the end of his speech, so much so as to be repeatedly unin-
same time. It was necessary to make this arrangement telligible.)
for the sake of the revenue, as, with a due regard Lord G. BENTINCK said that the great mastery which
to its interests, it was impossible to allow corn and sugar his Hen. Friend had displayed over his subject, and the clear
to be used together in distilleries. He believed that ho and lucid manner in which he explained it, did not leave it in
should command the assent of every gentleman in that the power of any one to say that he could not understand it.
llouse, when he said that spirit was an article on which
1h h
Tihe, proposalte usual
objections of herjesty'siniste had
ers did not
often
No %
it was fair to raise the maximum amount of duty. namely, whichl l h
statedt to the House,,against
the remission of ft
of taxes
one was anxious to extend the consumption of spirits, paid by foreign produce, in detriment to the British grower.
and the only risk in raising the duty was the 'there was another reason why he had not any great objection
risk of incurring illicit distillation. In this country, to passing the present measure, as, according to the statement
the present duty being 7s. toil, illegal distillation was of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, its tendency would be
barely kept down, but in Ireland it was impossible to rather to increase than diminish the revenue. While they had
maintain a high da,y, in consequence of the many heard a gloomy statement respecting one branch of the
facilities for defrauding the revenue. Various attempts revenue, and considering the state of Ireland, it was some
had been made to obtain a larger amount of revenue consolation to those friends with whom he acted, that those
than that which was obtained at present; they had, how- articles with which political economy or free-trade doctrines
ever, failed, anti the present result had been found, after had not meddled, such as tea and tobacco, had yielded an
considerable experience, to be as high as consistent with- increased revenue, which, had they trusted to the
out encoaragitig illicit distillation. And, therefore, duty on the articles allowed by the free-trade tariff,
considering the vast amount of money which accrued
the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have come before them
a bankrupt.-(Hear, hear.) He (Lord George Bentinck)
to the revenue from the duty on distillation, had said he was prepared not then to follow theßight Hon.
Gentlemen would see that it was of essential importance Gentleman through all his details, and his friends (the Pro-
that they should not suffer it to he diminished.- tectionists) wished more time to consider 'the measure. His
(hear, hear.) There were three periods in the process object, therefore, in rising was to beseech the Right Hon.
of distillation, in which the spirit was raised in price Gentleman, to pass it as a temporary rather than as a perma-
and it was in the option of the revenue to choose vent measure. His (Lord George Bentinck.s) friends had
which they preferred, and which would be most every desire to support the Government in every measure re-
favourable to the revenue. One of those tests WIS garding Ireland, and though they might have some doubts as
to the principle in the propositions for this purpose, they
entirely lost by the process of the distillation of smear.
Thus the oGicers wou1:1 be reduced to two tests, and it intended t o throw no obstacles whatever in their
way.-(flear.) Be trusted, therefore, that the Noble Lord
was their opinion, as far as their experience went, that (Lord John Russell) would, without prejudicing the policy
it would not be s iSe, considering the interests which the Government might hereafter think proper to adopt,
of the revenue, to allow both sugar and corn to be die- consent to pass the measure as a temporary one, and at a later
tilled together. But this was not all; it was the opinion, period of the sestion, when the affairs of Ireland were settled,
of some of the, most extensive distillers in this military, come before the House and propose whatever for a permanent
that molasses and sugar coals! not be preatehly worked purpose they might
lthink most advisable.i. vllis (ftird George
tdiseusppreersaeiendt
together, me in other words, that they should be kept I"' rell'i"rnactke.so)f malt,".ll t statedli'n thatr l'flon'e 'enr, great e
separate. Mr. Smith, in his evidence, said that hebar'elnZroha
operations. If this were correct the effect of the
thought that molasses or grain could not be high price ;was to diminish the consumption of
fermented with advantage together, as it would ocea-
barley, so that he could not see how the tendency
sion an abso'ine loes by perfect fermentation. of the present system would be to create a large consumption
Other evidence to the same effect was read by the Right of grain for beer which might be used for food.-( Hear, hear.)
Honourable Baronet the Chencellor of the Exchequer, The present malt tax was one isMich did not fall entirely on
the purport of which was that they did not think it the consumer, as had been alleged by the Chancellor of the
would be advantageous to use corn and Exchequer. It was equally divided-one portion of it was
molasses together. The Right Ilenourable Baronet i borne by the consumer, the other by the grower of barley.-
went
on to say that they never did so when they had (Hear, hear.) The operation of the measure now proposed
the power, and they never would ; he did not thick in allowing sugar to enter into competition with barley in
therefore that any real advantage could result from a breweries and distilleries, would add one to the many other
provision for the use of molasses with corn. The real claims
rwhich
e the i t
o n agriculturalof t
i,e
o t interesten n, had a n
h beforeo the
,e
O h t
Govern-
objection to the use of molassee and sugar in distilleries Tlonn. Gentleirnamn had told them )that the prescript higTh pricße of
was the large amount of duty levied upon them malt had added a penny to the price of each pot of beer. if
before tle y could be used. That objection he pro- the Government woald take the duty off malt, he (Lord Geo.
posed by the present measure to remove, anti practically Bentinck) was persuaded that not only would beer and ale be
he proposed to allow the use of sugar duty free brought hack to their old price, but would be sold for a penny
for distillation ; practically so, at least, except to this a pot less than that. His reasons for censenting now to the
extent. lie would levy an amount of duty from the present measure, were in order that they might, without delay,
spirit equivalent to that at
consider other measures relating to Ireland, without
resent levied upon malt.
Its England the distillation of spirits was effected hindrance
Lord
o obstruction.r But he could assure the
opposite, that if he was determined
from -a mixture of various sorts of grain, in these to make it a permanent measure, at the present time,
proportions-two parts of malt, two parts of hops, and he should be obliged to offer it every obstruction in his power.
eighteen parts of barley; or to make that appear clear to Ile, therefore, hoped that the Noble Lord would reconsider the
the House he would give them these quantities, 2 quarters matter, and consent to the course he had proposed.
of oats, 2 quarters of malt, and 18 quarters of barley ; Mr. SMITH O'BRIF.N said he had never been more dis-
that would be a mixture of grain suited for the purposes appointed in any statement. He had hoped to hear how the
of distillation. Now, it was evident that the ditty proposed measure would increase the supply or food, and dimi-
had to be levied in two different ways--first, it was nish the use of grain in brewing and distilling, but he had
levied upon the spirit, the produce of that distillation, been disappointed. In fact some of his statements would lead
and it was also levied upon the malt from which them to infer that the tendency would be rather to increase
than to diminish the use of grain.-( Hear, hear
the spirit was produced. What he proposed to
It was clear to him that if mollasses were introduced, the
de was this -that a certain rate of duty should effect would be to diminish the we of grain, and therefore libe-
lee levied upon spirits, the produce of sugar or rate a considerable amount of food for the consumption of the
molasses, equivalent to the duty at present levied people of Ireland ; but the Bight Hon. Gentleman the Chan-
upon spirits the produce of malt and grain, together cellor of the Exchequer, said he had no such intention.
with the duty at present payable upon malt. Molasses were not to be introducel, but sugar was, in breweries.
The mode in which he proposed to effect this-and he The same applied to distillers; sugar was to be allowed, but not
believed it was free from objection-was this : that the molasses. The Right lion. Gentleman, in speaking of distil-
distiller should take his sugar from the ware- leriee, further stated, that if malt was less in price than 545. a
house upon paying the duty; that he should use it for the quarter there would be no inducement to usel sugar. They
fr
purpose of distillation, and that when he came to pay the twhere,
the appalling
statement.Y.
spirit duty, he should have an allowance from G
oe
vei present
nmo o
hameasure.reall
really
meant the measure to do some good, they
that spirit duty equivalent to the difference be• should have allowed the use of both sugar and molasses in dis-
tween the duty which he hal paid upon the sugar tilleries and breweries, and prohibited the use of gr: in altoge-
so taken from the warehouse, and that which he would ther. There was one point connected with the statement of
have been called upon to pay upon malt. Now that, ac- the Right Hon. Gentleman of great interest to those con-
cording to the calculation usually adopted in previous nected with Irish affairs. The present measure would destroy
Acts, is ls. 21 per cwt. upon sugar, which was equiva- the only manufacture at present in Ireland. He appealed to
lent to the duty paid upon malt used in distilleries, the Hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Callaghan) if it would not
Consequently, he would have an allowance or drawback occasion the total annihilation of spirit making-( Hear, hear)
of 12s. 10d. on the quantity of spirit which was calc
ut. -seeing that it was proposed to reduce the duty on rum from
hundred weigh
fated to be produced from one 9s. 4d. to 3s. 2d., which was the new duty proposed. It was
of sugar, which would leave that spirit in iiii, not his intention to go further into the subject to-night, as he
situation-that it would be relieved from all the dut' • was not fully prepared to go into the details; but he could not
paid upon sugar, and would have paid a duty equivalent remain silent after hearinA such a dangerous statement as had
to that which would have been pail upon malt. The beei‘ni made by the Right on. Gentleman.-( Hear.
effeotr.of sAt LLAGHAN thought the measure would have the
distinction between the duties upan beer and
spirits was this-that the duty was levied on Ireland and Scotland, wuslemotf grualidnhindistilleries generally
heitsEnglande
the raw material in the case of beer, but in the would leave the protectionistsw would
a
case ;of spirits the very reverse was the fact ; so that would be able, by a few simple arguments, to' showj gthat the
in the case of malt required for the brewing of beer, Chancellor of the Exchequer had not sufficiently considered the
a larger amount of revenue than on spirits was pro- case. Let them take the article of spirits. The result of-the
duced to the Exchequer, which, if not imposed present arrangement would be, that the difference between the
on the raw material, would be lost. Eleven and a half duty on rum and whisky in Ireland would be only about 6d. a
gallon ; and in Scotland, adding the duty on malt to that on
gallons of spirit were produced from eight cwt. of sugar, !rieirtits,ttilliee difference would only be llt. or 9d.-(Hear, hear.)
and, therefore, 12s. 10d. would be deducted from the
spirit duty payable on that quantity. This might take India Grovtervnment proposed to allow the West
some little tune to explain ; but he trusted he made
sidering the vast amount of capital
but would not proprietor
„tie')
and Inolasses
Scotchfor distilling,
embarked distillers.iotiistllin Con-
his statement perfectly clear.-(Hear, hear.) The
result was simply this, that :a drawback of 12s. 100. could not but look on the present measure with dismay, fa, he
would be allowed on every Ili- gallons. All sugars, with believed it would have the effect of causing all these great
1 establishments to be abandoned. Entertaining these views, he
the exception of Muscovado, which paid a duty. of las.
hat.l.breen induced to address the Hohuse. '
would have paid a differential duty on their importation; 1
LBANKES would occupy House hinuttroadsuheoerdt time.only
He .triouent the measure would therefore our colonies would enjoy, so long as the I
Chancellormeasoufreiherather than as a permanent
present low duty continued, an advantage over a,
The temporary
t'oreign possessions which produced sugar. He did one. aExchequer had said that it
not thick it necessary to go into detail. The pre- it would have been the
1
intention of the Government under any
gent Price of barley was stated in one of the circumstances to propose the measure. However that might
Price Currents to be 34e I
~ but he believed that was be, considering the state of Ireland, he (Mr. Bankes) prayed
leheo t
lowtli present rate, which was as high as 635., but i the Noble Lord at the head of the Government to pass the
c'''''' ,t t e
o4s, and sugar at 335., 1 measure
.15 a temporary measure. He knew that a strong
which was the a
compete succesPsfruel'leyntwiptrhice,b andl woul.d, therefore,
feeling existed =lone the agriculturistsithat the malt-tax should
at the peace
at ar ey if it continued
be repealed. It was' only yesterday that a most influential
But looking back
that when rum wart'atserses of years, and considering and
the duty in questien, or. at least a portion of the duty •
as low as 18S., and
competition ahnfiedot 30s. sugar was then the Noble Lord also knows that considering the
state of the country they consented to waive the
be the slightest think there would matter for the present. Considering, therefore, that these
sugar. When there Was a
rise
barley and parties consented to waive their claims, he trusted that the
suctsaertinhthe price of sure a
fall in the price of barley, ee a srei in. sugar, and a Noble Lord would also waive his intention of making the mea-
price of
barley, and a fall in the permanent one, and only pass it for a time. No doubt
no competition. He believed that' the tre could be there was a difference in the present question and one in
distilling from corn was so great that itac advantages
of which all the advantages went to foreigners: their colonies
considered, that either sugar or molasses coouldcb not be would. no doubt, benefit by the measure. Still, in order that
interfered with. He did not think, therefor e much it saittht be fully and calmly discussed, he hoped the suggestion
distil from molasses would supersede thee, that to of
0 nthtz Noble Lord the Member for Lynn would be acceded to.
system of distillation, and whatever small advantages present head t:i (a grounds he had stated, he hoped the Noble Lord at the
the Government would have no difficulty in acting in
might appear to result, he did not think that it was or e naznner desired by the friends with whom
he (Mr. Bankes)
sufficient importance to warrant a distinct provision for usuisat?..y ated......(llear, hear.)
molasses. Ire nOW Came to the duty on rum ; the sion of OII.ItOURN said, that at the close of the last ses-
duty upon Colonial rum last year was 9s. Gd. gentles aen Parliamentwhowereh had taken on himself to advise those
Many attempts, at any rate more than one attempt was to avoiml taking any rain,terested in their West India Col mies,
made to reduce the amount of that differential duty, but
soaut.of .cultivation, I3tli Tleuds' or to throw their estates
they were always resisted by the distillers, and others
weirdethtactbin consideration of 't‘heercing that advice to them, he
who considered their interests would be injured by the sures which et.l'ilex'odvagainst a foreignmgotition to which they
reduction. Last session of Parliament he felt satisfied forward, he thought tel':ienyraM a
had rt. in _l".aeomdityabe the mea-
that the arrangement then made, was such as milted on terms which would enablerihoznyte
oietiarttiownoctioucebraindg
ought to have met the wishes of all parties. with other provinces, either intthaern fairly to compete
lie considered that it was such as to meet the wishes of or 5n the Colonies. He felt, Unitedthe Kingdom
both parties, in this country and the West Indies. But he now lay under particular obligations r,etfc,ore, that he
found that the remission was not such as to give cone c.ssions whichii the Government proposed to support the
r ..1 cob ales. His on. Friend near him suggested grant to the
satisfaction to the distillers of the West Ames. interests .
this that
were, in country who had equally strop • there
These representations were made in the strongest terms,g claims
upog the GOTC111111011t) and be expressed A Owe that the ar-
sad the Iciaini9ll Wei sacgi ITT 15. 4iti. Ile bolieTed

rangements proposed by the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the
Exchequer should be only temporary. But the colonies
had a fair claim on the country, because in the last session of
Parliament, when their produce was exposed to great compe-
tition, there was an implied pledge given that their claims
would be conceded. The House must bear in mind that they
were not now for the first time discussing the question. They
were now only fulfilling the pledge given by the Right Hon.
Baronet who sat opposite, namely, that the question
should be fully considered next session. With respect
to the propriety of making this a merely temporary
measure as his Hon. Friend had suggested, he (Mr.
burn) would would wish to know to what period his Hon. Friend
would have it extend ? ( Here Mr. Bankes made some re-
mark, which was inaudible in the reporters' gallery.) His
Hon. Friend said that it should be limited to the month of
September next, but his Hon. Friend forgot that this was
not a measure merely brought forward with a view to the
relief of distress in Ireland. It would have been brought
forward had no such distress existed; it was a purely com-
mercial arrangement, consequent upon a previous understand-
ing, in order to deal justly with a great body of their fellow-
subjects. . (Hear, hear.) He would ask any man
of any commercial knowledge, whether a measure
limited to the month of September next was cal-
culated to benefit any class of men ? Why permanence
and certainty were essential elements in commercial transac-
tions. What inconveniences would not arise if they stated
that they enacted a law for the reduction of the duties on rum
in order to assimilate them with the duties on British spirits,
only to reconsider them again in the month of September.
He would ask them what would happen in the mean time?
They would have a great deal of speculation in the people's
mind. Persons would calculate as to whether Government
would be strong enough to carry their measures, and they
would have a great deal of improper speculation, founded
on current rumours, and information probably alledged
to be received from some individual apparently connected
with the Government. He did not believe that there
was any one who would have the hardihood to embark his ca-
pital in the manufacture of beer, or the importation of rum.
He could not conceive that any one would dare to venture
their capital on the assurance of a law which would last at
farthest only five or six months. He trusted that the Govern-
ment would take an enlarged view of the subject. It was a
question for the House to consider whether the colonies were
or were not entitled to share in the advantages afforded by the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. After the pledge given
during the last session—a pledge induced by the competition
to which their produce was subjected, as against the
produce of other countries—he thought that the state-
ment made by the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite
had been throughout so clear, comprehensive, and so ably ex-
, pressed, that he (Mr. Goulburn) should only weaken the effect
of that statement if he were to attempt to go through the argu-
ments. He agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman, that as
regarded the admission of sugar into the distilleries of
this country, an extradagant view was taken by the
colonies of the benefits to be derived. He entirely concurred
with the view that was taken by the Right Hon. Gentleman,
that they should protect the revenue, not only because that was
essential to the growers of sugar themselves, but to the country
generally. With this opinion, he thought the introduction of
molasses into distilleries and breweries would occasion a loss to
the revenue, which fully juseified the Government in the course
they were pursuing. At the same time, he thought that the
colonies which manufactured it had a stronger claim to the
remission of the duty on another article. The Right Hon.
Gentleman had just stated that sugar would not generally be
introduced into distilleries unless there should be con-
currently a high price for malt, and a low price for
sugar. He thought that this calculation could not
be overthrown. But experience, also confirmed this
view of the question. Experience had: shown that the in-
troduction of sugar had not excluded barley or malt. It was
well known that private brewers employed nearly three-eighths
of all the malt in this country. Private breweries were not
now confined to the houses of gentlemen, but they were cone
ducted by persons who employed large bodies of men, and who
reserved a portion of their wages in return for this beer sup-
plied to them. These persons found it an object to brew for
the smallest amount, and yet in no instance did he re-
member that su,gar had been employed. He re-
collected Mr. Calvert was being examined befose a
committee of the House of Commons, and he stated
that it was not admissable to use sugar in distillation.
even if malt was 775. a quarter. He (Mr. Goulbourn) was
not prepared that evening to enter fully into the question of
the remission of duty on rum,
.because he had not expected
that the Right Hon. Gentleman would have brought forward
the subject, be thought rather that he would have confined
himself to the subjects referred to in the Queen's Speech, and
he was not prepared, therefore, with documents to enter into
the particular amounts of differential duties which he proposed
to lay on the produce of the colonies as compared with spirits
distilled in Scotland and Ireland. He was aware that
there was nothing more difficult than to ascertain
what inconveniences one branch of trade might
sustain by the application of certain measures to the other,
and to reduce that inconvenience to a pecuniary value was, of
all other things, the most difficult. He would therefore con-
tent himself with merely giving his assent to the proposal of
the Right lion. Gentleman on the present occasion, and he
would reserve to himself the right of expressing his opinion
more fully when the question was brought before them in an
after stage. Generally, however, he might say that in this
case he fully believed that the Right Hon. Gentleman had
taken a course which was just as regarded the colonies, and
politic as regarded the interests of this country, because it
fulfilled a pledge given in the last session of Parliament.
Mr. WODEHOUSE begged to remind the Noble Lord
that all these measures had tended to put off to an indefinite
period the consideration of the repeal of the malt dax, and
therefore the House must be reminded that the situation of
the growers of barley was most materially altered by the mea-
sures of last year. It was impossible to forget the great dif-
ference that was now attempted to he made as regarded the
admission of foreign produce, and Government might be pre-
pared for remonstrances and resistances if a measure of
this kind were to be brought forward, or if they attempted to
extricate themselves from the difficulties of this period by
I making this a permanent measure.
\Mr. HUME wished to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer
whether he would lay before the House, in an intelligible form,
the reasons which prevented him from giving the publc a
great boon by the admission of molasses? It appeared at all
' events, that the remission of duty on sugar would be inefficient
to reduce the cost of brewing, and that the only article which
would have that effect would be molasses, and that was shut
11 up. He (Mr. Hume) desired to have some reasons shown,
why they should not get rid of the Excise altogether, if they
stood in the way of a good to the people. Let the Right Hon.
! Gentleman give them something in a tangible form to con-
/ sider, and they would then be enabled to say whether his
reas, ns did or did not justify him in the course he was pursuing.
Mr. FINCH said that the gentlemen of the county he be-
longed to, and he believed English gentlemen generally, were
incapable of forming a sound judgment on this question, arid
lie considered it was rather taking the House by surprise to
bring forward this question, and to ask Hon. Members to con-
firm this measure, before giving them an epportunity of form-
ing an opinion upon it. If this were the case with English
Nlembers, it was even more difficult for Irish and Scotch Alem-
hers to agree to a measure classing the duties on rum with the
duties on British spirits, when they were not aware that the sub-
ject was to be brought forward that evening with respect to
the colonial interest, he felt that they ought to be promoted in
any way. He felt that those interests had been shamefully
sacrificed. He felt that no part of the British dominions was
so neglected as the colonies. But it struck him that this was
no question merely of the English colonies, for it interested all
foreign countries and colonies. He had read, not long before,
in a paper, of the arrival of three ships with Brazilian sugar,
and it stated that further arrivals were expected, and the
article concluded by expressing a hope that Brazilian sugar
would be extensively used in the distilleries. He would not say
that the agriculturalists of this country intended to oppose the
measure. All he said was, that they cught to have had some
time to consider it.
Mr. D. BARCLAY said that he would not dwell on that
part of the question which related to the distress in Ireland.
He deeply sympathised in that distress, but his object
in rising was rather on behalf of the colonies. A
pledge had been given by the Right Hon. Gentleman
at the close of the last session of Parliament, and
it was but just that that promise should he redeemed.
He did think that Parliament, at the conclusion of last session,
had given a pledge that when the protection upon the produce
of the West Indian Colonies was abolished, and the protection
which they had hitherto enjoyed was also withdrawn, that no
restriction should be placed on their commerce with this
country. He thought that this was simply a mere matter of
right and justice, and one which ought not to enter into any
political consideration. The imposition of a duty on sugar in
Jamaica, was just the same thing as the levying of a duty in
England. What would the Noble Lord opposite say if it were
to be seriously praposed to levy a duty on wheat in England.
It was neither just nor right that the restriction on the com-
merce of the West Indies should remain when the protection
on their produce was removed. His Right Hon. Friend only
opposed the measure because it was to be only of temporary
effect, but he thought that the colonies ought not to be thus
subjected to such a capricious system of legislation. Their
great distance from the mother country will prevent the mea-
sure, if it were of a temporary character only, from being of
any use to the colonies; and he did not see why it should be
limited to the first of September, Ile did hope that the dis-
tress in Ireland would not prevent the Noble Lord from doing
justice to the Weed Indian colonies.
Lord G. BENTINCK said the Right Hon. Gentleman
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer), in the introduction of these
measures, had expressly stated that the ground for entering
upon them was the distress that pervaded Ireland, and when lie
and the friends who acted with him, had agreed to assent to
their passing, it was agreed, that his Noble Friend at the head
of the Government should first settle the affairs of Ireland.—
(Laughter.) He had understood from the proposition of his
Noble Friend that this was to be the foundation of
their present proceedings, and he trusted that this dis-
cussion respecting the potato crop would not cause
the calamity that had befallen Ireland to be l'orgotten ;
but that the introduction of sugar into breweries and distilleries
would not prevent the case of reland from being fully con-
sidered. From the speech of the Hon. Member for Cork, he
was lead to believe that this measure of the admission of sugar
into distilleaies, is not to be taken simply as a remedial measure
for Ireland. His Right Hon. Friend had, in some respects,
misrepresented, though most unintentionally, he was certain,
the observations of hieTriend behind him ; and when his Noble
Friend, at the head of the Treasury, made his statement on
Monday next, respecting the affairs of Ireland, he trusted that
the circumstances would be made fully apparent, and the mode
of relief that he intended to adopt. He could assure
the Gentleman who had just sat down, that the
Members on his side of the House were as deeply
interested in the conservation of the colonies as he was himself.
He begged to assure him that he and his friends acted in no
spirit of hostility to the West Indian interests. Did his Right
Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, remember the
evidence of Mr. Calvert, the brewer, before a Committee of
that house? If be did, he should also recollect that since
that time, that the cost of malt had risen from 755. to 80s.,
whereas the duty on sugar bad been reduced from 275. to 14s.
per cwt. ; and the duty on slave grown sugars had been reduced
from 635. to 913. The Hon. Gentleman asked how he would
like to have a tax imposed on corn; why, there was a tax of
4,500,0001. on agricultural produce.—(Hear.) Why, was not
malt a portion of agricultural produce ? And what would the
Hon. Member for Manchesser, who had formerly been a
Member for a county have thought if it had been at that
time proposed to levy a tax on agricultural produce ? and how
would he have conceded that which affected prices? When
he asked this question, it should be recollected that, in fact, the
introduction of sugar into breweries was neither more nor less
than to occasion barley to be displaced. Ile thought it would
have been better to have reduced the price of spirits. He found
from the returns, that since the year 1823 the maximum of the
consumption of spirits had been doubled.
Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to interpose, and to re-
mind the Noble Lord of the increase of the population.
Lord G. BENTINCK continued.—e Why, the consumption
had increased from 13,000,000 to 26,000,000 gallons a year,
and if any Gentleman would only walk down Oxford-street or
Holborn, and view the number of the gin palaces which were
to be found there, he would quite agree with him that the re-
duction of the duty had doubled the consumption. Now what
was the case with regard to the consumption of beer ? It had
not increased 25 per cent., although the population had in-
creased far more than that. And that evidently showed that
the consumption of spirits had increased at a greater
ratio than the consumption of beer. His Right
Honourable Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer
seemed to desire that rum hould take the place of
n
tive spirit in Scotland, lie hardly expected that re.

suit, for he was not at all surprised at any one preferring of certain Acts. Those employed in the administration
Glenlivet to rum. This was a formidable question, of the poor-law should be placed more immediately
which he would recommend to the attention of his Noble under the control of the House. Therefore he thought that
Friend. But still he would express a strong hope that the this board should be differently constructed. There should be
House would not allow their interests in the colonies to inter- one officer who should be styled president, and who should be
pose before the affairs of Ireland ; and he begged to assure entitled to a seat in the House of Commons. He should not
him and the friends who acted with him on that side of the have any more authority in that matter than his Right Hon.
House, while agreeing with this temporary measure, he felt an Friend the President of the Board of Control.—(Considerable
anxious desire that it would not prevent any remedial mea- laughter.) He should propose that there should be two
sures for the affairs of Ireland. secretaries, one of whom should be enabled to sit in the
Mr. P. BORTIIWICK conceived that an insurmountable House of Commons, and the other should not; but merely
difficulty to the future prosperity of the colonies would be in- carry the ordinary law. Therefore it would be the case, that
stituted if this measure were to be made the foundation of per- one of the secretaries would be able to explain the conduct
manent operations. For it had been justly observed by his of the different officers under the poor-law. lie wished only
Noble Friend the Member for Lynn ( Lord G. Bentinek), there to state generally an outline of the plan which Government
were two sides of the question to be considered; there were desired to propose. With respect to the general regulations,
the interests of the colonial producer, and the interests of the as they were called, he should propose that the rule adopted
British consumer. When these measures were first introduced, by the present commission should still continue in force. fie
it was with the express view of alleviating the distress of Ireland. proposed to make a different regulation altogether in the
But if they interposed these affairs of the coloniesennd made administration of the law in Ireland from that of England.
them the foundation of a permanent measure, he did not hesitate The administration of the poor laws in England and Ireland
to say that it would occasion the ruin of the West Indies. would therefore be separate. Ile did not think it necessary to
What would be the consequences? A merchant in the West make any further observations with reference to the plan which
Indies would have invested his capital in the expectation of a he proposed for the adoption of the House. The plan had
certain return, and when his cargo arrived in England he already been embodied in a Bill which had not, however, been
would find that, through the conduct of the Pritish Parliament, finally arranged ; at an early day it would be ready to be laid
it was rendered nearly valueless. upon the table of the House, and if it should receive its
Lord JOHN RUSSELL wished to say a few words in reply sanction, he hoped that the adruistration of the lase
to his Noble Friend, who had shown so much moderation and would be perfectly satisfactory to all parties. It was,
such an absence of party spirit, at the commencement of this in his opinion, of great importance, that where
session, that he should be glad
t° grant any concession so much information as to the working of a law was desired
which was consistent with s public duty, and by Hon. Members, it was necessary that its administrators
do anything that he could to meet the wishes of should be always present in the House to give the required in-
the Noble Lord, and of those who acted with him. The Noble formation. If any lion. Mt rnbers were prepared with any
Lord seemed to have no objection to this as a temporary mea- motion, or suggestion upon the subject, he could assure them
sure. But since his Noble Friend had made this proposition, that it would receive the most serious consideration of her
that this measure should be only a temporary measure, and not Majesty's Government.—( Cheers. )
a permanent measure, it appeared to him that he The motion having been put,
had mixed up two subjects, the abrogation of the Mr. BANKES said, that had he followed his own in-
corn-laws, and the suspension of the navigation laws. clination, he should most certainly have proposed au
If, therefore, they were to accede to the proposal of his Noble immediate repeal of the existing poor-laws. Ile felt
Friend to continue the measure only for a few months or a convinced that in consequence of the great feeling
year, and hold out a prospect of its ultimately becoming per. which existed in the country against the poor-laws,
anent upon the principle propounded by his Right lion. the best mode of settling the question, would be at once to re-
'Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it would be pro- peal the laws.—(Bear, hear.) When, however, he recol-
longing the doubts and anxieties which prevailed upon the lected that the present measure hail been sanctioned by two
question. It would give rise to a good deal of inconvenience, Attorney Generals, and two Solicitor Generals, and a number
and might lead to a good deal of excitement, being got up in of influential persons, he could hardly suppose that he should
the country. He was, therefore, obliged to come to be able to succeed in his motion for that object, and he should,
the conclusion that it was far better for Par- therefore, in his opinion, best secure the completion of his
liament to decide, whether the question should be per- wishes by supporting the proposition of her Majesty's Govern-
manent or temporary. It was quite in the power of his ment, more especially when he recollected that an instruction
Noble Friend at any time to raise a discussion upon the point would be given to the Committee to report upon the existing
of proposing a separate clause limiting the operation of the law, as well as the recommendations of her Majesty's Govern-
measure to a given period, then if the House concurred with ment.—( Hear, hear.) A great number of complaints had,
him in opinion, the clause might be inserted in the Bill. He, within these last few days, been forwarded to him upon the
however, trusted that this would not be the result of the dis- subject of the poor-laws. One of those, and the principal
cussion ; and although he felt much indebted to the Noble one, was from the constituents of the Noble Lord, at the
Lord and his party for the assistance they had afforded him, head of her Majesty's Government. It was a report from a
he could not help thinking that it would not be fair for them committee appointed by the guardians of the city of .London
to raise any excitement upon this question. Union, to inquire and report upon the existing poier-law.
Lord G. BENTINCK said he had no desire to get up any They stated in their report, that they found in the construction
excitement on the question, and he would readily consent to of the Act the most opposite and conflicting opinions, which
take the opinion of the House upon his own proposal at a later had involved in the different parishes throughout the City the
stage of the Bill. greatest diversity, which was most detrimental to the interests of
Mr. B. ESCOTT said the Noble Lord, who had just sat the poor; that many of the unions of parishes which had rated
down, had long been an advocate of political economy, but with feelings of liberality towards the poor, were taken advan
recently the Noble Lord had evinced the discretion of an old tags of, in consequence of the uncertainty of the Act, by
politician in his recent political contests. The Noble Lord, it other parishes, who relieved themselves of their just burden
seemed, was to be the friend of the Noble Lord the First Lord of by casting their poor upon those parishes which, influenced by
the Treasury, till the Irish question and all its difficulties were humane feelings, allowed them to remain ; and they recom-
settled.— ( Hear, hear.) When that day would be he did mended that those provisions should be continued which had
not pretend to tell ; but when it did come, he supposed been previously granted to the poor, without putting them
the Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn and the Noble to the necessity of proving their titles afresh, and that in order
Lord the First Lord of the Treasury would not to prevent the hardship which would befall the aged, the poor,
be in the amicable intercourse which they now witnessed every and the infirm, by a withdrawal of their pensions, the
night. With respect to the question immediately before the Committee were prepared to recommend an increase in the
House, after what had occurred last night and on previous rates of the parish. That was a recommen•lation which did
nights, the course he ought to pursue was clear. lie took the the board of guardians of the city of London great credit.—
measures as the best Government could propose with the (Hear, hear.) With reference to the proposition of her Ma-
largest chance of carrying them. That better measures could jesty's Government upon the proposed altered construction of
be proposed no one would pretend to deny, but he with others the central jurisdiction for the management of the poor-law, he
questioned whether they would be carried if those better mea- believed that the measure would give general satisfaction. He
sures were brought foeward at the present time. The Noble thought it quite right that the poor should have their repre-
Lord the member for Lynn had let out another secret for the sentatives in Parliament, and the choice of those
benefit of the farmers. In the last session of Parliament the representatives, which would fall upon her Majesty's
Noble Lord told the farmers that they would find compensation Government, he trusted, would be made with re-
for the repeal of the corn-laws in the abolition of the malt tax. ference to the most competent persons in all respects
There had since been several gatherings throughout the as well in regard to their diligence, judgment, and effect_
country, as well as sumptuous dinners, at which the (" And mercy," from Mr. Ferrand. ) If such persons were
Noble Lord was an honoured guest, and at which the appointed, he had no doubt that the country would be highly
Noble Lord promised to secure the farmers the corn- satisfied with the proposal of her Majesty's Government.
pensation he had previously held out to them. Mr. HUME had heard with great satisfaction the announce-
It appeared now, however, that this compensation ment of her Majesty's Government, that they were deter-
was to be abandoned by the Noble Lord. This was mined to change the rules of the poor-law.— (Cheers. )No
somewhat strange, when it was remembered that the Noble man was more anxious to support the system than he formerly
Lord was the president of an anti-malt tax association, was, and when he was appointed as a member of the
to which he (Mr- B. Escott) certainly had not been solicited Committee to inquire into the conduct of the Poor-law
to become a member. In fact, he could nut help thinking that Commissioners, he certainly had an opinion favour-
the Noble Lord had sold the farmers just in the same way as he able to them ; but when lie heard the evidence
had got up a sham fight in their favour in the last session of that was then adduced, and the evidence of the
Parliament, and now the promised compensation was to be put commissioners themselves, he could not but consider that they
aside until some indefinite period. Now, he wished that the were most seriously involved.—( Hear, hear.) And there was
farmers of England should know what was going on. They no wonder that so general a feeling of hostili yto the adminis-
were to have no compensation till the Irish question was settled, trators of that law should have been manifested throughout the
and when that moment arrived, the Noble Lord would be ready country, when it was known, as was the case, that each indivi-
to attack the malt tax. dual member of the commission acted entirely upon their own
Lord G. BENTINCK said, whatever opinion the responsibility, while the Act directed that noshing should be
Hon. and Learned Member for Winchester might done without the consent of all.—( Hear, hear.) He had
entertain as to the duration of the friendship which given notice of an address to dismiss the commissioners
existed between himself and the Noble Lord, the First from their office ; but in consequence of the announce-
Lord of the Treasury, he trusted as that friend- ment of her Majesty's Ministers, he would not now
ship had subsisted for many years, it would not be so easily press that motion. With reference to the persons to be
broken up as the Hon. and Learned Member seemed to anti- nominated, lie would impress upon her Majesty's Govern-
cipate. For his Noble Friend's private, personal, and ment the necessity of appointing persons who should possess
political character he entertained the highest respect, the confidence not only of that house but also of the people.
while he no less admired his Noble Friend's political con- It would require no ordinary amount of prudence on the part
sistency, and his own battles showed not, he trusted, that of the Noble Lord to select proper persons for the discharge of
when he differed in political principle with his Noble Friend, that office. He was formerly of opinion that Members of the
he might still be able to meet him in strong opposition without Board, appointed to manage the affairs of the poor-law, ought
any interruption to their private friendship.—(Cheers.) The not to have a seat in the House of Commons. He .was now,
Hon. and Learned Member for Winchester had 2sserted that however, of a different opinion. lle thought that the Seers-
he was the president of an anti-malt tax association, tic tart' of State had too much business to attend to be able pro
would not enter into any discussion upon that point, but lie pet-1y to superintend the operationsof thaAaw, and to give to lion
could assure the Hon. and Learned Gentleman that lie might Members the information which they might require, from time
i rest perfectly satisfied that whatever society he (Lord George to time, upon the various points that might be brought under
L Bentinek) might belong to, unless he wished to have it be. their consideration, either in consequence of their own obser-
-1 tray ed, he would never invite the lion. and Learned Gentle- nations or the representation of their constituents. He had no
man to become a member.—( Hear, and cheers.) doubt that many a time the late •:eeretary of State for the
Mr. BROTHERTON was desirous of putting an end to Home Department had, ape: vrouldi admit the fact, made
this personal discussion arid bringing the mind of the Com- excuses and apologies in order to disguise his real ignorance,
mittee back to the subject immediately under consideration. end which, had he been acquainted with the facts and the
The returns which had been so often alluded to during the bearings of the case, he would not have made.—( Laughter. )
debate showed that there were 27,000,000 gallons of spirits H should support the motion of her Majesty's Government.
annually consumed in this country, being about one gallon each Mr. VERNON SMITH regretted to find that not one
for every man, woman, and child in the United Kingdom. word had been said by the Noble Lord with regard to the law
There was upwards of •I0,00°,"° gallons of malt consumed in of settlement. • As the subject, however, was to corns before
the same period, and he thought that upon a the Select Committee, it was not his intention then to say
moderate calculation the malt consumed in spirits nything. It was always with great pain that he differed with
might extend to upwards of 100,000,000 quarters. the Noble Lord on any public question, but he could not help
Upon a fail" calculation, he might reasonably state entertaining such a feeling when he heard the Noble Lord in-
that there were 400,000,000 gallons of beer annually consumed timating his intention of proposing that the law of settlement
in the United Kingdom. Now the inhabitants of this country should be referred to a Select Committee. It was his opinion
were considered an enlightened people, and yet they paid that the Government should deal with that question, and not
50,000,0001. in spirits and in intoxicating drinks. If the a Seh ct Committee. He could not understand why they
House was really in earnest in its desire to alleviate the distress should refer it to a Select Committee, for there was nothing
and suffering which prevailed throughout the land, it might which they might elicit in that inquiry that could in the least
easily accomplish that object by doing away with that guide them in coming to a decision. With this ques -
50,000,('001. of taxation, which he considered as so much money tion eaery Member in the House was better acquainted
thrown into the sea, because it produced nothing but poverty, than with almost any other public question. At the close of
crime, and wretchedness. He was, therefore, convinced that if last session, before the Committee, appointed in the House of
the House would only lend its o moral influence to the societies Lords, to investigate the special burdens on land, evidence was
established for inculcating into the minds of the people princi- gene into at great length on this subject, and were it not for
pies of temperance, it would be doing more good than removirig the lateness of the hour, he would make some extracts from it.
The facts which were then stated, made it quite unnecessary,
Mr. B. PERI? AND had heard the Hon. and Learned in his opinion, to submit the matter now to a Select Committee.
Member for Winchester charge the Noble Lord, the Member . And, if he recollected well, the Right lion. Baronet, the
for Lynn, for having directly attendedi. there to-night to sell the Secretary for the Home Office hail, at the close of last session,
farmers. At his last
le election lime Honourable and given a promise to the effect, that a measure on the subject
the duties off intoxicating drinks.
Learned Member literate into Winchester at the hea i would be introduced by the Government. His own opinion
of a great procession of farmers,t to whom he pro- was, that union settlements were perhaps the best medium
protectionist, and declared they could obtain, if it would not be considered better to abolish
nounced himself to be
their battles on the floor of the House, settlements altogether. He believed that no greater
fthtaeh
.i interest. Afterwards, when he curse could be edtailed upon the country than the present
came
edliinfetoint
madeheeh a grand speech in favour of his system of poor laws. There was another subject to which
he stuck up
constituents, and in whir. _Ops for protection to agri- he would refer before he sat down. He wished that the ques-
culture. He assisted the
.11 . and Learned Gentleman to time of rating should be also taken into consideration, along
correct that speech, for the yourpose„ of having it circulated with the law of settlement, for he considered that both subjects
among his constituents.— IN
4entl no, fro,m Mr. B. Escott. ) were so intimately connected that they should go together. If
The Hon. and Learned
would prove it.
• On
readyha that defencethouse,o fight
of
a articularp occasion he happened to be he foresaw that they would protract the settlement of these
lineal', when the Hon. and Learned
in the shop, b 9, Palineall, Member questions to an indefinite period, and every species of investi-
that he was there the H Hon. and Learned gation should afterwards arise, notwithstanding the resolutions
came in ; seeirg
d• I think of
" What diet you my speech the other which might be come to by the present Committee. lie corn-
Gentleman said,non. and Learned Gentleman that it was plained of the feebleness of the resolutions of the late Corn-
night." He told the
but that he did
a great piece
of oratory, not understand how mittee appointed to inquire into the conduct of the Poor-law
would be able to construe •
the Winchester farmers _ . his long Commissioners ; and if some better result did not follow the
Upon that advice the Hon. and Learned labours of the proposed Committee, little progress would be
Latin quotations. made in hit s e h pec , and had it made in the settlement of this important subject.
Gentleman had alterationsd circulated among
his constituents, Sir JOHN PAKINGTON wished to. express the great
and published, an
printedthe 184 '
In year 6, he freely quoted from satisfaction he felt at the alterations which were proposed to
at his own expense.
that powerful and lengthy speech, and even since then, it was be made in the constitution of the board of Poor-law Corn-
foundwer Now, he
distinctly charged missioners, and at the tone of the Noble Lord in bringing the
to be difficult to ans •
with .
d Alember selling his constituents; subject before the House. The evils of the old poor-law ren
the Hon. and Learned
and Leareed Member hash charged the Noble dered it necessary that some change should take place in the
aLnod as the Hon.
rd the Member for
Lynn with attempting to sell the farmers, central board. He agreed with the Noble Lord, that some
i Learned Member that any Member member of the commission should be a Member of that House,
he must tell the Hon. antnot would
in that House who could sell his
consititucnts hesi- and he believed that the proposition was one which would meet
hear, and cheers.) with approbation.—(Herr.) lie considered that the proceed-
tate to sell himself.—(Hear, ' when his • '
ESCOTT admitted that,
Mr. B.
•the corn-laws underwent constituents had exercised a considerable influence in the House and the
the subject of explanation. He gave that ex country. He himself was a member of that Committee, and
had a perfect right to have some
sio .
Bill Passed last .ess n, and although he was bound to state, that he agreed with tlae Noble Lord that
planation before the Corn l'
etines of pia constituents •
•of the largest me , the Commissioners had acted with the best possible intentions,
he delivered it at one
that he had ever attended ; all of them but three expressed and had exercised the soundest prudence in their proceedings.
conduct. At the close of the He could not concur in the regret expressed by the Hon.
their entire approbation at his .
tin I I
a public mee g assem ) ed, and ber Northampton, that the question should be referred to a
Mem-
session he met them again, at
~
expre..sed themselves sat s- Select Committee as the
,law of settlement was a subjent which
for the second time his constituents
eech, he could ^ only should be approached with the greatest possible caution and
fled at his conduct. With respect to thelsop
have
state, that when he thought it necessary
__ any speech of consideration. His own feeling on the subject, confidently, was
Member for Knaresborough that the result of the labours of that Committee would be amo
his corrected, artainly the Hon.
l to for this p -
purpose. dification of that law which, more than any other, pressed upon
would be the last man he should appeal
f the Hon
He had listened to one or two speeches o _ ,
that.
._ Member, the labouring classes. With regard to the Poor Removal Act
and had heard one or two of his friends remark, if he had of last session, he did not concur in the censure passed upon it
anreated them his b the Hon Member for Dorset lf
studied those speeches a little more, y . s ire, and the Hon. Member
and lau hter '
—( Hear,g
.•
)
for Northampton. He thought it a very good Act, and he
oratory would have lost nothing.
d to. hoped that the Committee, now proposed, would not depart
The resolution was then put and agree
On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL, p Corn Importa. from the principles laid down in it, andwould ' -
' time and recognise an
tion and Navigation Laws were read a third passed. industrial residence in a place as giving a claim to relief.
SETTLEMENT.
POOR-LAW Sir G. GREY had thought that the Hon. Gentlemen had
to move that a Select had sufficient of Parliamentary Lord JOHN RUSSELL begged . experience experience to know
• to the poor-laws of Ire- that no power such as that he assumed, would be delegated to
Committee be appointed to inquire in
l Act W' - '
land, and particularly the Poor-law Remove
d.. ith one person of the committee. If the House wished to place
regard to the law of settlement, there were certainly 'faculties him (Sir George Grey) on the committee, he should but be
to be encountered on every side, and lee did not think that they an individual member, and at that moment he could not say
could come to a just conclusion on the subject until they had what course he should adopt if he was so appointed. If the
had the advantage of the advice of persons who were House agreed to the motion, he should propose a motion to the
acquainted practically with these matters, and who should effect, that the committee should inquire into the working of
be called together for that purpose. He wished to take this the Poor-law Removal Act, and to report especially
opportunity, as several questions had been asked with respect to upon it to the House, as he thought it very necessary that
the inquiry instituted last year, that that inquiry had been very a committee of the House should have an opportu-
satisfactory. With regard to the proceedings that had taken nity of making an inquiry. He confessed he was rather
place at the Andover Union, it was not the intention of the led to entertain the opinion of the Hon. Member for Droit-
Government to take any steps, unless it were introduced by witch, although he admitted in some instances that the Act
some other Member of the House. The Government looked induced considerable hardship, and though its operation
he
had
rather to the general question. The House was well aware that, been contrary to the intentions of the Legislature. _
with
according to the Act passed last year, the powers of the question of the Law of Settlement was not so easy to deal it.i
l
lion.
Poor-law Commissioners were limited till the next session of as many Hon. Members seemed to suppose. :I
that the late Go-
Parliament. In considering this question he must say that he Gentleman opposite (Mr. Bankes) stated
that the
thought it was absolutel• necessary to have some body which vernment had adopted three Bills on the subject, and
us to improve,
should have a central controul,. and which should also have a present Government ought to adopt some mea _
.r
G.
Grey)
local inspection._( Hear, hear, from both sides of the House.) and to give more effect to those Acts. To him Si
( stood in
Under the system which formerly existed there was no doubt it appeared that the whichdifficultieso.ao.,;
he in the
that great evils existed, and it was most necessary that the the way were far from easy of , I "
his opinions
mat-administration that existed under that system should be course of last session had stated what
d h t
of Settlement, an t a
exposed which could only be done by means of some Minis- were with regard to the Law
part of the measure, he
terial controul. But with regard to the manner in when the House came to consider that.
upon it, and the
which this contract was to be exercised or rags- should be quite ready to express his opinions..
that he could
1 for its better working;
fated, there was the greatest difficulty in bringing plans which be proposer
difficulties which toad presented
it to the rule that would satisfthe House. The constitution see his way through all the
v t the Committee would present a
of the officials should be changed. With respect to his own themselves, and he hoped tha i _
go a
great way towards recti-
part, he believed that those Commissioners had exercised their Bill to the House, which would
,dston. ,
rue question of rating
powers to the best of their abilit • and, further, he believed fin g the evils of the presets se
which were coming
that their general administration had' been successful, but he was inseparable from the other questions
the Committee ; unless they
could not say that in every instance that had been brought under the cognisance of
• t of the subject, they would, in
before Parliament that th • had been considered this par
en. powers rightly exer-
deal with the whole matter in an
cited. He believed that the want of success had been owing his opinion,
Hear, hear.)
to the circumstance of the control having been imperfect way.—ecessaid ~
when he heard the Right Hon.
id
placed in different hands. In one case they had to receive Mr. FERRAN')
of State the Home Department
the statements of officers under different circumstances. In Baronet the Secretary._
Hoy-. f0r`,„..i.,,,.
~.„
~
clout.
..
oon of the .•.--., - ' ‘.IOG inJ
one instance it was necessary to act upon the adrice of the answer the qtv's
inclined to believe that he was e late
officials, and in another instance the Ministers of the Crown evening, he felt almost
(lid
te for the Home Department. B the
had to state what were the circumstances under which, Secretary of State
Ps eject suppose, or the Noble Lord ut did
at the
and that were the ith59115 that led to) the adoption Right Ii" 11 61 r