The Sun.
London, England, 1841-05-15 00:00:00

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footing, and materially benefit the working classes. It
appeared to him that the true character of the
, - Proposition of the Government with regard to sugar
• had been most unfairly misrepresented by Honourable
Members on the other side of the House. It was
absurd to suppose that the Government had proposed
.the indiscriminate admission of all sugar. There was
still a high protective duty in favour of the production of
their own colonies; and he did not think the measure
- would produce any further. effect upon the West Indies
than to permit of a wholesome competition, which would,
at the same time, keep down the price and secure a suffi-
cient
• on high West Indian authority, that if that country
• would take off the restrictions upon their trade, which in
some cases amounted t.) 70 per cent., they would have no
.;,, objection to give up the monopoly they enjoyed with re-
gard. to sugar. He thoaght the true policy of that coun-
_ try, as a great commercial one, was to remove all restric-
tions, and establish the principles of free trade.
- Sir EARDLEY WIL MOT said he had been anxious to
make a few observations on the preceding evening, when
the Hon. Member for Kilkenny (Mr. Hume) rose and
- occupied the House to the adjournment of the debate.
It was not long ago since that Honourable Member
supported him (Sir E. Wilmot) in a proposition which
, he made to the House for the abolition of the
negro apprenticeship, and it was not without great
.4 surprise that he heard the lion. Member last
night, in a long and able speech, support the views of her
Majesty's Government, which had a tendency directly
„, the reverse of what the proposition which he supported
relative to the apprenticeship had. He (Sir E. Wilmot)
";;... would not go one step to confer any advantage on the
- West Indian interest, but if he would not do them
favour 'neither would he do them any injustice. He
•\tf,. conceived that the reduction on the sugar duties was
against the principle of the emancipation of the negroes
in all parts of the world, and for any measure which
Ai, would have such an effect, he could never give his vote.
It was to record his vote against such a measure that he
now rose, as he conceived it contrary to all Christian
principles.
Mr. H. BERKELEY perfectly concurred in the prin-
ciple of increasing the revenue of the 'country by a
reduction 'of taxation. He was likewise delighted to
find that it was meant by the Government to revise the
Corn-lavvs ; he felt sensible that it was a measure which.
was called for, and he had no doubt would be received
• by a great portion of the community with the approba-
tion it deserved. However, with respect to the proposi-
tion for the reduction of the duty on sugar, while he
gave every credit to Ministers for so much of their plan
. as would, in his opinion,- after a certain period, be attended
with beneficial results, both as respects slavery and the
interest of the planter, yet he could not conceal from
himself that in the West Indies a great experiment vas
now being tested for the abolition of slavery and the
slave trade. Upon the success of that experiment in the
-West Indies depended the welfare of the African negro
throughout the world. If he represented the whole
of the West Indian interest, and were the cause
• of humanity opposed to that interest, he would vote in
favour of humanity. But here the cause of humanity
and the interest of the West Indian merchant were, in
his mind, one and the same. He believed if the question
of the abolition of slavery was thrown over, that the
present would be the worst measure for the negro that
ever was passed. He would therefore vote for the reso-
lution. of the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Sandon).
Mr. J. PARKER said, that the Hon. Member who
had just sat down had left ont of the account the real
reasons- which influenced her Majesty's Ministers to in-
troduce the present measure. The present Government,
and the majority of their supporters, bad always perse-
vered in endeavouring to rescue the negro from the hor-
rors of Slavery ; but they would never sacrifice the
. rights of the people of England to the advantages of
the negro population. They had constituents—(Oppo-
sition cheers)—yes, he would repeat, they .had consti-
tuents, not only electors, but non-electors. He, for one,
stood there in his place, the representative not only of
the electing, but also of the non-electing population of
the district which did him the honour of returning him
to that House ; and for them he supported a measure
which would provide the necessaries of life at a cheap
rate. It was his firm helief that the course adopted by
the Chancellor' of the Exchequer was well calculated to
benefit the condition of the masses of the people of
England.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Whatever might
be the result of the coming division, he had no doubt
that Hon. Gentlemen would find that the principal and
. substantial part of the proposed measure would become in
• a short time the law of the land. 'Whether his friends
around him sat on the Ministerial or the opposite side of
the House, he had no hesitation in saying that no blind-
ness or infatuation, or laxity of principe, would ever
divert them from the course which they knew
Was for the benefit of the people ; they
would support the proposition which was now
made in whatever shape it might come before them.
It appeared to him that his Right Hon. Friend had taken
the proper course to protect the commerce of the
country, and supply the deficiency in the Exche-
quer. If there was any thing more clear than another it
was that the House should support the diplomacy
of the country, and strengthen the hands of the
Noble Lord who had so long and so honourably
presided over it. The more th-e House did so
the more it enabled him to say to Germany and Prussia,
to North America and the Brazils, we will take your
corn and timber, and other productions; the more it en-
tailed him to show to these great countries that our
'),t'om-house was not hermetically sealed, the more would
enable him to strengthen our diplomatic relations, and
, to illustrate still more the merit of his policy.—(Hear.)
* • Ile Was satisfied the more they increased the productions
- and manufactures of the country—(and herein he was
supported by the testimony of the Right Hon. Baronet,
(Sir R. Peel)--the more their own prosperity would be
augmented. lle apologised to the House for trespassing
on their attention, but representing a community inter-
ested as much as any, or above all others, in freedom of
trade, or reduced production, he felt he should not have
acted in the manner they had a right to expect from him,
if he had not raised his voice in favour of the proposition
advanced by the Right Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear.)
Mr. D'ISRAELI said that he was much struck by an
observation that had been made in the course
of the debate, that one remedy was seldom
found sufficient for two diseases. He thought
It would shortly receive an illustration, and
. that it would be found that the present proposition
Would not suffice to replenish the Treasury and keep the
Government in office. The Right Hon. Gentleman had
taken what was called high ground. He had arrogated
to his party the peculiar honour of representing the com-
. mercial interests of the country, speaking, too, against
the resolution of the Noble Lord the Member for Liver-
: Nol, backed as it was by the Hon. Member for Bristol,
who had just deserted him.—(Hear, hear.) With regard
jt. t‘o the question immediately before the House, there
vere. two points which he thought the present debate
• had established ; first, that the supply of sugar from our
colonies
was sufficent for the country, and that in case
Propositionthe of the Government was adopted, the
duction in price to be consumed would be almost
Ppo,sible to be computed from its littleness. Then it fol-
Gwed that the real question at issue was whether the
4„„:" adoption of the proposition would open new markets for
us• The Right Hon. the Judge Advocate had de-
teribed those with whom he-had the honour to act, as
hypocritical Pharisees thanking God. He (Mr. D'lsraeli)
supposed at the same time that he was a placeman and
.; . a sinner.—(Cries of " Oh, oh !") A fiscal point of great
importance on this occasion was the nature of the market
of Brazil. But when the House heard so much of the
Brazilian nation, and the importance of a comm ct eial
. treaty with that country, he thought it would be well for
the House to remember that the population of Brazil
was only five millions, of whom three millions were
negro slaves and 250,000 coloured slaves, and that it was
the result of general observation and experience that
the population in slave trade did not increase. lie
wished, therefore, to see the Government extending their
patronage to other and free countries--the Mexican and
the South American States—but, above all, he wished
them to remember that our exports to Jamaica were
„ greater than those to Mexico and Peru together. Hon.
Gentlemen had talked a good deal of the commercial dis-
tress 'in tl,e country. He had not heard that that dis-
tress was denied ; but neither had he heard any evidence
to prove that it was any other than one of those periodi--
. cal depre: sions' which must always occur in a country
where manuradures and commerce were carried on to
the extent in which they were in England. Similar dis-
tress and similar predictions of the decay and ultimate
destruction of her commerce had existed in the
time of Sir. Robert Walpole, throughout the whole
of the reign of George IL, in which the foundation
was laid of our commercial greatness ; in the time of
' Mr. Burke, and when Mr. Pitt brought in his commercial
' measures; and there were feW Hon. Members in the
House who could not remember periods of similar de-
pression. But if they would look to facts and official
documents they would find there was no evidence what-
ever of any permanent decay. It was said that it was
brit true the amount was maintained, but that its character
was altered. That was an important question, but one
-which could only he decided by the profoundest inquiry.
If they would look to the markets of the country they
• would"not find a single 'evidence of their decline—they
4 ' would find, indeed, that our exports were diminished in
"those countries which had been under the auspicious
Care of the Noble Lord Palmerston, but no one
WOnld suppose that our commercial tariff had produced
• these results. The Noble Lord admitted that these
markets had been disturbed, but attempted- to fix on
those around him the approbation of the policy which
had occasioned it. He (Mr. DI.) had never heard
statements more erroneous. He would not tantalise the
Noble Lord's memory by referring him-'to a debate on
'Which he had had a majority, but on the China debate
he was satisfied that no such approbation had been be-
, stowed as that which was asserted. But our exports to
those places, with whoM we had long maintained coin-
, taercial relations, had of late considerably increased ;
•• and not only so, but we were now penetrating into the
Interior of new countries with whom we had every reason
.„, expect we should form extensive commercial relations.
„6.,
Nothing in the course of this protracted debate had stir-
. Prised him more than the charge of faction made against
the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth—(Cheers)—
whose total want of faCtious feeling kept the Noble Lord
who made the charge in his present seat in the Adininis-
r,,... tration.--(Cheers.)
. , Sir H. VERNEY thought it was necessary- for the ex-
tkPion of the trade of this country, that measures such
4ii f; Mikjegty' s Government proposed, should be adopted.
1,11, a had travelled with commercial men in the interior of
South America, and the result of his observations was
• that the wealth phich Great Britain might derive from
a. free commerce with the Southern continent of Arne-
, ~. sea would far surpass all the gains that the two
had acquired from their mines.—(Hear, hear.)
\‘''"s... Aims
' use Members who supported the Government N I
!lot calling upon the House to abandon the West
tiriszte,,r_e_at, or to sacrifice Canada to the Baltic trade.—
hear.) The object of the measures proposed
'll.,,,‘,tti_et Majesty's Government was to give an impulse
Tie, and to benefit equally all parts of the empiure.
"Ped that Ministers haying thrown down the

' gauntlet would go through the fight like men, and if
they were beaten, it could not be to their dishonour
and it must be to the advantage of the country.
Mr. KEMBLE said that it appeared to him that they
were then called upon to undo that which the country
had formerly done for the emancipation of West Indian
slavery. The consequence of _the proposal of Ministers
• would be to give -fresh encouragement to slavery in the
Brazils and in Cuba, by creating a new market for their
sugar. The Gentlemen were now acting in direct con-
tradiction to the precedent which they had themselves
laid down in opposing the motion of the Hon. Member
for Wigan last year. There was nothing to justify such
inconsistency, as the price of sugar was now becoming
so low, that, according to the evidence taken before a
Committee of the House, there would be no limit to the
consumption. He confessed that he had read with great
astonishment in the papers of that day the resolutions
of the Anti-Slavery Committee of Liverpool—(Hear,
hear, from the Ministerial benches)—for he could not
have conceived it possible that those who had been in-
cessantly urging in the country the criminality of the
slave trade; would not come forward to support a mea-
sure which in June last they held to offer an encourage-
ment to the evil which they were formed to suppress.
It was, however, to the national wish—it was to the
people of England, they were in reality indebted for the
emancipation of the negroes ; and he confidently be-
lieved the people would not now shrink from the conse-
quences of the course they had pursued. He admitted
the difficulties of the country, and deplored them as
much as any man ; but it was to the conduct
of the Government themselves he attributed those evils,
and he hoped that they would not long have the destiny
of the country in their hands.—(Hear, hear.) How dif-
ferent was the state of England from what it had been
when the Whigs came into office after the downfal of the
Ministry of the Duke of Wellington ; and how much
had they forgotten the principle of Mr. Huskisson,
that there should always be in this country a surplus re-
venue of from 4,000,0001. to 5,000,000/. ? He did not
think that the present was a proper time for bringing
forward the measures introduced by the Government, or
that they could, under existing circumstances, be brought
to a satisfactory conclusion. Those measures might in
the opinion of some be ultimately successful.—(Hear,
hear, from the Ministerial benches.) They might pro-
duce some good, but it was possible, too, that they would
bring much of evil and of disorder upon the country.
Under these circumstances he would feel it his duty to
oppose, as he did on the 25th of June last, the motion of
the Government.--(Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
could not but regret that some of the leaders of the
party to which the Hon. Gentleman who had just ad-
dressed the House belonged, were not present during the
latter part of his speech, for he was sure that if the
Right lion. Gentleman the Member for Pembroke, or

the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire, who
had assisted in driving the Duke of Wellington from
office in 1830, though they had since united with his
party—he was sure that if they had been present du-
ring the observations of the Hon. Gentleman they would
have enabled him to give a different account of the state
of the country at the time from that which the Hon.
Gentleman had given, and they would have refreshed
his memory with some few particulars which he had
omitted.—(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches.)
They would have reminded him of circumstances which
he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should have
thought that a gentleman so much connected with the
City could not have forgotten. They would have re-
minded him at any rate that at that period, throughout
the whole of our agriculture, no one could sleep in quiet
—and that property was repeatedly in flames.—(Cries
of " Hear.") They would have reminded him that at that
time the King of England was not able to pass through
his own City of London; and, with respect to foreign
affairs, it should be recollected that a Noble relative of his

' (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) then declared that the
state of our foreign affairs was such, that he defied the
Government to keep the peace of the country for six
weeks. If the Hon. Gentleman, in his statements on the
sugar trade, was merely as correct as in his recollection
of political circumstances, he (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) was afraid that the House could not place much
reliance on his statements on that subject. It was a
great satisfaction to find that the Hon. Gentleman had
not so many facilities of obtaining accurate information
on the sugar question ; he only touched upon that subject.
He had referred to the slavery case, but when lie came
to the details of the question before the House, he found
that the Hon. Gentleman handled it as gingerly as pos-
sible, and contented himself with referring to general
questions of finance and commerce. He would not follow
the Hon. Gentleman into these questions—he would say
nothing of the opinion of Mr. Huskisson, that we should
have at all times a surplus revenue to the amount of
4,000,0001. or 5,000,000/ ; that was one of those beauti-
ful dreams which financiers sometimes indulged in ; but
he would tell the Hon. Gentleman, if he consulted the
history of the country he would find that under no
Administration had it been realised.—(Hear.) In the
observations which the Hon. Gentleman had made on
the sugar question, he had fallen into the samein-
consistency with other Members of his party who had
preceeded.him. Some Hon. Gentleman told him that
he would get no foreign sugar, and that he could not
hope to make up the revenue from that source,
whilst others told him that under his scheme there
would be such a deluge of Cuba sugar—(Hear, hear)—
that such a quantity of it would come into the
British market, that the negro population of the
West Indies would be thrown out of employment,
that the West India proprietors would be ruined, and
that even the rich ryots of the Ganges would sink under
the weight of competition. It was very inconvenient to
deal with Hon. Gentlemen who did not know exactly
what line to take upon the subject. They should have
settled before-hand whether no sugar was to be imported
and he was to het no revenue, or whether there was to
to be an extensive importation of sugar, and he was to
get a large revenue at the expense of the West Indies.
The two propositions were utterly irreconcilable. His
Noble Friend (Lord J. Russell) had stated to the House
the mode in which the duty was to be raised ;
and he thought that statement would satisfy the House
not only that ample protection had been given to the
West Indian interest, but also that they could safely
calculate on receiving the amount of revenue which they
had stated. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) sin-
cerely believed that their expectations on that subject
would not be disappointed. Her Majesty's Government
had satisfied themselves that the proper way to meet the
financial difficulties of the country was to take an en-
larged view of its difficulties, to give a new impulse to
commerce, and not to lay additional burdens upon a people
already sufficiently burdened ; and they had thought it
their duty to consider what was the due amount of the
protecting duty to be given to West India sugar in com-
parison with foreign sugar. He would ask was that a
sufficient price to the West Indian—would those prices
secure to that interest a fair and reasonable return ?" If
Honourable Members would look at the paper which he
had the honour of laying upon the table of the House,
they would see that from 1820 up to 1839,
throughout the whole of that time, with the
exception of the two years, 1835 and 1836, the price
of colonial sugar had never exceeded 395., while in those
two and the last two years he would acknowledge the
price of sugar had been very much higher, but the price
he had secured to the British colonies was a price which
had not been exceeded, with those exceptions, during
the last 20 years. He had been taunted that 50 per cent.
was a very considerable protection to any article of ne
cessity or trade. The Noble Lord, the Member for
North Lancashire acknowledged on the other evening
that sugar now was an article of necessity, but his (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer's) object was not to inter-
fere in any measure, but to give ample security
to the West Indian interest, by giving them the
high protecting duty of 50 per cent. But it
must be remembered that that was not the only
advantage which the West Indian interests had obtained.
His Right Hon. Friend the President of the Board of
Trade had introduced a Bill giving certain facilities to
the West Indian trade. In 1833 a Committee of that
House sat, and long calculations were entered into. The
West Indian interest then stated that the restric-
tions upon their trade and commerce was a heavy addi-
tional taxation upon their sugar. He did not
want to tie them down to the statements then
made by them, for any interest making out a
case for themselves were generally carried away by their
feelings, but he was bound to say that by the Bill
his Right Honourable Friend brought in—which,
though it did not enirely remove, still greatly
reduced the restrictions pressing upon the 'West
Indian trade—that trade received a facility to the
-amount of the restrictions taken off. It had been said
that the 700,000/. which he expected, would not be
realised ; now, in his dealing with sugar, his object had
been to fix a certain sum beyond which the price of
sugar would not rise. So long as colonial
sugar could be sold below a certain price
foreign sugar could never interfere or come in competi-
tion with it. The question then was, what sum he could
really obtain at the price he had fixed ? He begged, then,
again to refer to the table which he had laid before the
House, and they would find that in 1825, when the price
of sugar was 38s. 6d. the consumption was 3,020,000
tons ; in 1826, when the price was 30s. 6d., being then a
reduction of Bs., the consumption had increased by
494,000 tons. In 1836, when sugar was 40s. 10d., the
consumption was 3,480,000 tons ; while in 1837 the price
having again fallen to 345. 7d., the consumption was
4,860,000 tons. Let the House look at the price of sugar
during those years, and they would find that by securing
the price of 365., while of late it had been from 395. to
495., he had therefore secured a fall of 65., and therefore
they could calculate upon a much larger importation
of sugar during the next year than any of those
preceding. Taking those amounts, and looking to the
increase of population, he found that, even taxed as it
had been, the consumption had increased. Taking
the amount of last year, and considering the reduction,.
they might rely upon an increase of 523,000 tons of
sugar, and taking it and the revenue, he proposed
it gave 660,0001.; he had placed at 700,000/., but that was
supposing that every ounce of sugar that came in was to
be colonial sugar, and introduced at the lowest rate of
duty, and that did not include any duty upon molasses.
Provided he could secure a low and fair price for sugar
for all turned upon that point, provided a certain price of
sugar were realized they might rely upon a certain re-
venue of 700,000/. He believed that that sum was
very much under-rated. In 1830 the consumption of
the country was 19Ibs. per head, taking the population of
1841, and the rate of consumption the same as
in 1830 instead of raising 700,000/. they
would raise a revenue of 1,606,000/. Taking
the duty always at the lowest rate, in the year
1831, when the consumption amounted to 201bs. a-head,
we would have received 1,659,000/. ; in 1832, 1,320,0001.;
in 1833, when the price had risen, 993,000/. ; in 1834,
1,000,000/. ; in 1835, 1,300,000/. ; in 1836, when the
price was highest, and the consumption lowest, only
549,000/. ; in 1837, 1,115,000/. ; in 1838, 1,128,000/. ;
and in 1829, 720,000/. So that, taking the consumption
of any one of those ten years, with the exception of the
year 1836, as the basis of their calculation, be would re-

ceive the amount larger than the amount he had calcu-
lated on.—(Cheers.) He would look at it in another,
point of view, and he would appeal to the experience of
any gentleman who had an opportunity of ascertaining
the habits of the lower and middle classes of society,
whether he was not aware that among those classes,
during the last two years, the habit of .consuming sugar
increased to such an extent that the stocks of the grocers
had been materially raue,ed.—(Cheers.) But during
the last year the poorer classes had been obliged to give
up the use of sugar, or, which materially affected their
welfare, to use adulterated sugar to a great extent.—
(cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman had borne histesti-
mony to the character of two of the witnesses who had
been examined before the Committee, and, therefore, it
was not necessary for him to insist upon the high 014-
meter and intelligence of these gentlemen. But what
did they say ? Why, they said this, that the moment
the price of sugar was raised above 605., the consumption
fell off, but that as long as you could keep the price at
from 50s. to 603., you might look for an almost inter-
minable consumption, for a consumption, in fact with-
out limit.—(" Hear hear," from Mr. Goulburn.) He
knew what the Right Hon. Gentleman meant by that
cheer. The Right Hon. Gentleman admitted it. in his
speech the other evening, The Right lion. Gentleman
said, " Let sugar alone, you will your get 700,0001. ; it
is my opinion you will get more."—(" Hear,' hear," from
Mr. Goulburn.) It was admitted then that he would get
his 700,000/.—(Hear, hear.) What then, became of all
the taunts which lie had heard on the subject ?—(Cheers
from the Ministerial benches.) What then became of
the observation of the Noble Lord the other night,
that he would not get anything like that money ?
(Cheers.) What, then, became of that taunt which had
been thrown out, and which stigmatised his proposal as
a legislative bubble ?—(Loud cheers.) A bubble that
would bring in 700,0001. a year was not to be despised.
—(Loud cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman said that he
would get the money from the home markets, he would
get that sum of money both now and hereafter from
that source ; and therefore he was told he ought not to
take any measure, and that was considered a triumphant
reply.—(Cheers.) Now his object had always been to
protect the West Indian as long as he could afford sugar
at a fair and reasonable price. But while on the one
hand he afforded a protection to the West Indian so long
as he could supply sugar at a reasonable price, on the
other hand he was bound to see the public protected.
So long as the West Indian was able to send
his sugar to the public at a fair and reasonable
price, so long would he be protected. But the
moment he got beyond that price, foreign sugar
would interfere with him, Thus, while he secured to
the West Indian a fair protection, he took a security on
the part of the poorer classes and the revenue, that they
should not be put to the inconvenience' to which they
were put during the last year, in consequence of the
high price.—(Cheer.;.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had
entered into a calculation, which he had produced, and
on which he had asked him (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) to rely. In the first place, the Right
Hon. Gentleman told him that the quantity of sugar which
they might expect from the British colonies and the
East Indies, would be amply sufficient for the consump-
tion of the country. His answer was, that he should be
glad to leave it to the consumers of the country to judge
what they thought was a proper quantity for the eon-
sumption.7--(Cheers.) The whole object and principle
of his measure was to fix a fair price, so that consump-
tion could go on to the utmost possible extent. But lie
thought if lie looked back into the papers in the Colo-
nial-office, he should find repeated and very recent re-
monstrances from those very colonies Which now told
them that they were able to give a full and ample supply
of sugar, complaining that their productions was falling
off, and that they were ruined.--(Hearomd cheers.) To
be sure those remonstrances were made before they
were . aware• of the present measure.—(Laughter.)
But they could not blow hot and cold at the same time ;
they could not complain of the produce falling off, and
at the same time state that they were now producing
more sugar than ever had been grown before.—(Hear.)
But that was not all ; they were, told that they could ob-
tain an unlimited supply from the East Indies. Now he
had had the honour to receive a deputation from ilia
East India, merchants, and had asked them what

they considered a fair remunerating price.
Now he had thought that 365. ought
to be the price but they had stated that they must
look for 403. So that the rich. valley of the Ganges
according to the statement would not supply sugar under
40s. Now, if he was of opinion that 365. was a fair
price for the consumer to pay in this country, and a
price which would afford • the greatest revenue, would
he be justified in trusting to the pledges and opinions
of Hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House,
that the supply would be amply sufficient without
taking any security for the truth of their pledges?
—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) But if they were
able to provide an adequate supply, and a surplus beyond
it, as they stated, then no foreign sugar would be ad-
mitted, avid no harm would be done.—(Hear, hear.)
When the question had been argued the other day, gen-
tle:nen opposite had referred triumphantly to the Price
Current, and had told him that even since the time that
he had introduced his measure prices had fallen. But
would they appeal to the Price Current now ? Had prices
continued to fall ?—(Cheers. Did they suppose that
gentlemen engaged in this trade did not look to what
Iva 3 going on in that House ; and what was the effect ?
P: ices were rising, and.would rise. Gentlemen said that.
last year the prices were high, but now they had fallen
from 495. to 365., and he was taunted that now prices
wire lower—he was about to interfere, and was asked why
he had not interfered 'last year when they were high.
If he had come down to the House and said, " The prices
are very high, and I will propose a measure now," did
the House suppose that Hon. Gentleman opposite would
be satisfied ?—(Hear, hear.) Would they not have
asked him, and most properly, not to take so ruinous a
step at that moment, but give them a little time to make
some alterations when the prices were more equal, and
then to propose this measure ?—(Hear.) He had chosen
a time, he admitted, when the produce of the East Indies
and other, colonies was large, and when he mighs
be taunted that what he proposed would make but a
small difference. But it was a time when he could interfere
the best, and the least inconveniently to the West Indian
interest—it would not materially affect them this year,
but then he gave . them warning of what was going to
take place. He did not taken them by surprise.—
(Hear, hear.) If it were true that the law was

waste paper for this year, the result was that it
was done with that courteous discretion and that careful
attention to their interests, which left them no right to
complain.—(Cheers.) While he was dealing with the
question of protection, he would call the attention of the
House to a point which had been referred to by the Hon.
Member for Newark and by his Right Hon. Friend the
President of the Board of Trade, and he trusted that
his answer would be perfectly satisfactory. In 1823
Mr. Charles Grant brought a proposal before the House
with regard to the sugar duties. On that occasion he
stated, that Mr. Huskisson, when President of the
Board of Trade, had pledged himself to recon-
sider the sugar duties ; that Mr. Huskisson
having left the office ; and being succeeded
by himself, he considered himself bound by that pledge ;
that in consequence he had given his best attention to
those duties, consulted parties on the subject, and even-
tually laid before the Cabinet, a reduction in the scale of
duty. In the debate which` followed, this fact was not
denied by Mr. Huskisson or by any Hon. Gentleman. Now
what was the scale ? On East India sugar 255., on fo-
reign—what ? 285.-50 per cent. ; Bs. upon 20. Het
knew the argument that was used by the lion. Member
for Newark was, that that was a great experiment ;
that at the time the question of slavery was in
agitation, what difference was made between free-

labour sugar and foreign sugar of Brazil or Cuba?
They gave a protection of 3s. only to the free-
labour sugar of the East Indies, in compariso with the
sugar of Brazil and Cuba.— (Cheers.) Now, he would
not quarrel as to whether the duty should be 2s. more
or less ; but he must make one obseration in this respect.
He was prepared to give a protection of 50 per cent. to
free-labour sugar. There had .been hitherto a protec-
tion of 3s. only, and yet Hon. Gentlemen said that it
was a question of principle, that they would not endure
that slavery and the slave-trade should he encouraged.
—(Cheers from the Tory benches.) Let Hon. Gentlemen
be assured that the people of this country took a deep
interest in this matter, and they would find these pre-
tensions to humanity would not serve them. They
would ask the question, how it came that they who were
prepared to admit Brazil and Cuba sugar, with a protec-
tion of 3s. only on free labour sugar when they were in
power, the people would ask the question how it hap
pened that they had forgotten that fact, and
now found it utterly inconsistent with their principles..
But there was another answer: The Hon. Member for
_ _ _ _

Newark had said it was nothing : that there was a large,
Surplus, and that, therefore, it was nothing. If such
were the case, if the surplus was ample for the con-
sumption, why was it that the objection was not made?
Mr. F. Buxton had said, with respect to competition,
that he was afraid that by it they would increase slavery,
and therefore he objected to it. Mr. Huskisson and Lord.
Glenelg, on the contrary, thought that competition was
most important, and they admitted that it would have
considerable effect in raising the trade to the Brazils.
At that time the protection was 3s. ; that was con-
sidered ample. And why, therefore, he would
ask, should not the protection that he proposed
be considered ample too ? He would now turn
to his Right Hon. Friend the Member for the Tower
Hamlets. He admitted that anything that fell from him
fell from a man who was persuaded that he was right.
But he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) must confess
that he entirely differed with his Right Hon. Friend in
the view and prospect he had of introducing foreign
sugar. His (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) opinion
was that competition between free labour sugar of East
and West Indies, and that which was produced by slaves
in Cuba and the Brazils, would be productive of consider-
able benefit to trade. He had no doubt that his Right
Honourable Friend sincerely and honestly believed'
what he had stated. But his (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer's) opinion was, that if they wished
to strengthen the trade in free labour sugar they must
recur to the true principles of free trade. If they wished
to have a healthy, a steady, a fair, and strong produce of
free labour sugar, the only way to procure that was to
allow it to be competed with by other sugar, and not to
bolster it up by protection.—(Hear, hear.) He was sure
that his Right Hon. Friend would agree with him that,
looking back at the commercial policy of this country,
nothing was more true than the principle laid down by
Mr. Huskisson, that if they wished to improve trade they
must admit competition, and the worst thing they could
inflict upon commerce was to caulk it up or to bolster it
up by protection. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Mem-
ber for the Tower Hamlets had asked how they could
reconcile it with their principles to prohibit slave grown
sugar and yet to admit slave grown coffee and other arti-
cles ? His Noble Friend opposite had stated the only an-
swer that could be given to the question. He said that
he was against slavery, but that he should get all he could.
He asked his Right Hon. Friend, although that might
satisfy his mind and many of flip friends with whom he
acted, when he came to deal with foreign rowers, how

woAd-he put that argument ? Let him go to the Brazils
and ask them to admit the cotton of England, and the
answer they would make him was, admit our sugar. He
would say he objected to it as being the produce of slave
labour. He would be asked in return where he gor his
cotton ? and his reply would be that he was a practical
man, that he could not exclude cotton, but that he -Would
exclude sugar, if possible.—(Cheers.) lie believed an
argument put in that way would only expose that coun-
try to the ridicule and contempt of that nation to whom
the proposition was Made. . The Noble Lord the
Member for North • -Lancdshire had challenged
him to show how he was giving encouragement at pre-
sent to the produce of slave labour. -He accepted the
challenge, and contended-that if he sent a large quantity
of goods to Brazil or Cuba, • even although they were
paid- for in the produce of 'those -mines which had -been
referred to in the debates, and not in sugar, still if they
sent that sugar into foreign countries, it came to the same
thing.—(Cheers.) It reminded him of the story he heard
when a boy, of the cherry .orchArd-- 01.Cr.e....-PUmber of
children seeing a large supply of cherries in an orchard,
and not having money wherewith to purchase them, they
set about planting straw, which they sold to another
part'y, and then they went and purchased the cherries.
So that- whether their goods
.were paid for in money
or in slave-grown sugar, the • encouragement to
slave labour was just the same. These were the prin-
ciples of Mr. Huskisson, and they were the principles of
common sense, although he admitted they were not the
vinciples of the Noble Lord.—(A laugh.) He would
now take the article of refined sugar, the produce of
Brazils or Cuba, which they exported to the West In-
dies. Did the Noble Lord mean to tell him that that
was not an encouragement to slave labour ? It came to
the very same thing as if they allowed the introduction
of so much Brazil sugar into England ; and it appeared
to him that the attempt to shut it out was only making
the matter a little more round about. Although
he had troubled- the House at some length„
there was one point he wished to allude to as related to
his own peculiar department. He was taunted with
having introduced a Budget founded upon a different
principle from that of last year, and he admitted that
his Hon. Friends had had some difficulty in defending
him. Now he submitted that he was neither entitled
to the accusation, nor did he entirely accept the defence
of his friends. When he considered the financial state
of the country last year, he could not conceive for-him-
self that, independently of the difficulty of Obtaininr,
additional revenue; he had to look to the strong feeling
on the subject, which, however wrongly, had
spread itself at home and abroad, viz., the im-
pression that no ,MiniStry could raise, and no
House would vote, additional taxation.—(Hear, hear.)
The people of this country, foreign nations, and the
friends of England abroad, as well as enemies (if
such she had), were to learn that whatever party might be
in power, whatever change might be made in the repre-
sentative system, there existed a spirit and a deterMina-
tion in this country to protect the public honour and in-
terest of the nation at large. Perhaps, not as a political
economist, but as one anxious for the general interests of
the country, he (the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer) had the honour, under those circumstances,
to bring forward a measure of direct taxation, and put
an end to that which he considered one of the deepest
calamities which could attach to a country. When he
came a second time to consider those circumstances—
when he found that they .Were called upon to have re-
course to the country to raise additional means of meet-
ing the public exigencies, relieved as he was from the
consideration which weighed with him on the former
occasion, he determined on that course which he now
recommended to the House, and which he believed was
infinitely preferable to the course formerly adopted. He
had endeavoured to find out, but without success, what
after all were the opinions of the opposite side of the
House on the present question. It was the duty, not
only of Government but of that House, to provide some
mode of 'meeting the financial difficulties in which the
nation was involved. He ventured to propose a Means
by which he believed the revenue would be increased
without laying additional burdens Upon the over-taxed
people. of this country. He proposed a scheMe which
did not pay attention to the interest of particular classes.
He ventured to consider the general interest, and if they
thought he was wrong let them tell him what course they
would pursue.—(Opposition cheers.) He was aware—
he saw from the course of the debate, that that was the
very question from which Honourable and Right - Ho-
nourable Gentlemen opposite would shrink.—(Minis-
terial cheers.) When Mr. Huskisson was in that
House, without being a member of the Government,
and disapproving of the financial measures of the
Government of the day, he had the manliness to tell
not his particular measure, but the line of conduCt which
lie thought ought to be pursued on the occasion. When
Earl Spencer was, with a small and hopeless minority on
the other side of the House, opposed to the Government
of the diy, he had the frankness to state the financial
course which he thought it desirable to pursue.
When Lord Ashburton made his comments on
the finances of the country his noble relative (to do
him justice) always stated his opinion boldly and openly.
There existed a great party in that House, the Budget
had been brought forward, and for a whole week they
had been in discussion—(Opposition cheers)----and he de-
fied friend or foe to tell what the principles of that (the
Opposition) party were.—(Ministerial cheers.) . He defied
them to tell him what was the course which they were inclin-
ed to pursue. But he should say there was one Gentleman,
the Hon. Member for Stamford "(Sir G. Clerk), who had
entered into a financial budget—who talked' a great deal
upon principles of finance—upon disturbing causes—for
'one whole hour, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
listened to that Hon. Gentleman telling what were his
Views, and if, in one sentence there could
be by any means, any glimpse of his mean-
ing 'caught, the next sentence would completely
do away with the impression made by the former.' He
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could perfectly under-
stand that that was suited to Hon. Gentlemen opposite.
He could understand that it was extremely good policy
on their part that nothing should be said which could
enable one to tell what was the courselhey adopted, or
pretended to adopt, on the present occasion. But
that policy was not the old mode of proceeding,
and would not answer the people of England. The
fair mode in which the public business had been car-
ried on was by both parties stating before the House
and the country their principles, and asking the country
whether they approved of one or of the other.
I have been taunted (continued the Right Hon. Gentle-
man) for being a plain spoken man. Whether intended
as a sneer or a compliment I cannot in either sense re-
turn the compliment.—(Cheers.) I ask you for infor-
mation, not such as was wrung from me last year, and
which was inconvenient to the public service,. and 'which
you refused, upon the motion of the Honourable Mem-
ber for Ham ich ; but I ask you what course you
purpose to pursue. You are called upon, the House is
called upon—for it is the duty of the House to find se-
curity for the public faith, and sufficient means for carry-
ing on the public service--and I ask you, if you are pre-
pared to reject this proposition, what mode you propose
to effect this object ? I ask you, not whether you are
prepared with immediate taxes, but are you prepared, in
preference to this course, to adopt taxation ? I propose
a course by which I propose to raise a sufficient revenue
without imposing additional taxes—are you prepared, if
you reject my proposition, to impose additional taxes ? I
propose a course by which we shall open new markets to
the suffering trade and industry of the country. I ask, are
you prepared to declare to the country, if you reject
these principles, that you will not try others of a
different character ? I propose to give you an opportu-
nity, I hope, of uniting with foreign Powers in commer-
ciol intercourse, which,- after all, is a stronger bond than
any that my Right Hon. Friend, with all his talents, is
able to maintain. I ask you, are you prepared to declare
to foreign Powers that you will not abandon any prohibi-
tion or monopoly—that you will insist upon their taking
our goods, but will admit none of theirs ?

I know you will give no answer. I know that
the Right Honourable Gentleman (Sir Robert Peel)
never displays his talents more than when he makes an
able, valuable, and important speech, but rendered more
particularly able, valuable, and important, by not stating
anything which he intends to do.—(Loud cheers.) I
know he will take especial care not to commit himself on
this occasion. 'The Noble Lord the Member for North
_ .

Lancashire, differs widely from the Right Hon. Baronet
in caution and concealment; no one can be less accused

of either quality, but even in his speech, I defy you to
find any sentence in which a principle is laid down that
is not overthrown by the sentence that succeeds it.—
(Cheers.) Sir, whatever may be the fate of the motion
before the House, lam not ashamed, and shall not for
a moment regret having laid these principles open before
the country.—(Hear, -hear.) Whether the country may
feel that those who brought them forward should carry
them into 'execution, or whether we shall have to give
effect to them in other hands—whether we shall have
exhibited the honest and noble and generous
.course,
pointed out by the Hon. MeinberlorKilinainock, of not
attackinge_Netieih' those great monopolies in a body; but one by
on f
this is to take place, and upon the opposite
benches I shall have to support these self-same measures,
one by one reluctantly admitted by those who noW array
all their strength in opposition to them, is to me eons-
peratively a matter of indifference provided that eventu-
ally they are carried into effect.—(Loud cheers.)
Sir J. KNATCHBULL moved that the Debate be ad-
journed till Monday.—Agreed to.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of,
and the House Adjourned at a Quarter to Twelve: