The Sun.
London, England, 1847-06-01 00:00:00

t° say, that he had received a letter from Lord Bere-
haven, contradicting that statement. The Right lion.
Gentleman havires read the letter said, he deeply
regretted the alteration which the Lords had made, and
he feared it would greatly prejudice the good working of
the measure. But it was understood that the Lords had
given way in a great many things, and he therefore was
of opinion they ought not to peril the safety of the
measure.
Mr. POULETT SCROPE explained. His object in
making the statements referred to, was merely to
snow the unwillingness of many landlords to bring the
Relief Act into operation, and in doing so, he instanced
the case of the workhouse of Bantry, to show the mis-
management which had taken place. He begged how-
ever to say, that the statement he made in reference to
Lord Berehaven was completely confirmed by six gen-
tlemen of Bantry, including the Catholia clergymen of
that place, and it was not upon newspaper authority he
made it.
Sir B. HALL called attention to a printed paper
ordered by the other House of Parliament, where 600
eiectments were issued at Ballina sessions. He would
ask the Hon. Gentleman was this the romance which he
sttid was indulged in with respect to the Irish landlords ?
looked with great jealously on the conduct of some
Noble Lords in the other House with regard to this
I 1.5.11, and he thought it right to say that the Noble Lord
°Y whom the leadership was assumed had net taken a
16°Y disinterested part with regard to it.—(Hear,
ear') He would ask that Noble Lord (Lord
itlonteagle) if he himself would be inclined to
have the principle of no out-door relief applied to him-
self ?—(Laughter.) He was Comptroller of the Ex-
ch•
equer, and received a large sum yearly for that office.
esnld he be inclined to have that relief limited to a
year end a half's duration?—(Laughter.) There was
other Noble Lord also (Lord Abinger) who stated that
e Principle of out-door relief would lead to great im-
niOra I;
tY; that he looked upon such assertions with great
ansPicion.—(Hear, hear.) As long as the poor added to
the
„ importance of the Irish landlords at the polling
tic' they were fostered and looked after, but now
4t this state of things no longer existed, and
that the 40s. freeholders were disfranchised, they were
nnnsigned to death in Liverpool.—(Hear, hear.) At the
resent moment the English towns were crowded with
srish
ur, Paupers—all of whom should be at home, and
aerted by Irish landlords.—(Elear, hear.) The
4350 e rates to the poor in Ireland during last year, was
satth/el.l or about 7d. to the pound. Now, it was
ed that this annual vulue of the rental of Ireland
twenty millions, and he would ask, in the words of
Randolph Routh with such resources, ought such
pstate of things to exist ?—Hear, hear.) The Eng-
ai People were obliged to forego many relaxations, in
sehn of taxation, to which they were entitled, and
lure-e tbeY would have obtined, but for te exnd'.
required to meet the distress in Irelandh, and w pehich
1311ght to have been provided for by the landlords of
the inhabitants
hear.) He thought the conduct of
0 e inhabitants of the metropolis had been most getter.;
titliss and worthy of all praise.—(lronical cheers.) H
de-ught the effect of this clause would lead to a great
_
sr„,Of ejectment, and to a great deal of immigration of
that dupers Paupers into this country. He hoped, therefore,
sure next year the Government would introduce a mea-
si to facilitate the removal of the Irish poor.
eep-fariWnea.Barron, Mr. B. Osborne, and Mr. Callaghan
r' F. FRENCH did not mean to enter into the sub-
L. !natter under discussion, but be thought he had a
owgnuet to complain of the way' in which the Irish land-
the rs were treated, and he did for them complain of
Is taunts thrown out by the Right Hon. Baronet, the
iieenanater for Dorchester (Sir J. Graham), and the Hon.
lord l
er for Stroud (Mr. P. Scrope). The Irish and -
tau a, had in times past acted in a way to repulse all the
which had been thrown out against them.
shr' STUART said he was surprised that the Hon.
oalet the Member for Marylebone (Sir B. Hall),
1 have converted some language used in another
pled
arguments on a public subject urged on public
th ands, into a personal attack, and should have abused
attPrivileges of the House, the freedom of speech to
snsites..k,, that person being absent at the time. Such a
socn, that seemed to have been written for the occa-
b-ut", and addressed, not to the Speaker or the House,
pri a Public out of doors, was a gross abuse of the
!lieges
of the House. He even named a Noble Lord,
Rroti taunted him upon receiving a pension on the
n
tid of holding a public office under the Crown.
had named another Noble and Learned Lord who
neith"ee occupied a seat in that House, and said he was
Weller remarkable for his eloquence or his wisdom.
wisdom
that Noble Lord, no doubt, would be quite a match
eouidsilinta or in eloquence for the Hon. Baronet, if he
The Lave had the opportunity of defending himself.
ground earned Gentleman then read a paper, on the
lion. °f which he called the accusation made by the
urßaronet
against the Mayor of Wexford unfounded.
were iNV't SON" said the question was whether they
they v° enact a union rate or an electoral rate ; whether
free th:uld throw the whole burden on the towns and
for the country. He spoke not to his constituents but
to na ; because the town which he had the honour
trnsr teePrcsent was overwhelmed with destitution. He
the preastehnatt they would reinstate the original clause, for
The system was full of tyranny.
and iltlestion was then put, amid cries of "Divide,"
yr Can't," when
atetal wh`teARTHY rose and said he could not under-
and she,. 3'f the House should secede from. their opinion,.
The dousee°r he should press the question to a division.
Per the then divided, when there appeared—
A s motion BO
Against it
• 16
Majority for Government, and the Lords'
amendments
Mr. D. NORREYS contended that the clause would
be altogether inoperative, because, by its present con-
struction, it contradicted itself.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that with a view to reconcile the discrepancies which
existed between one part and another, he had altered
some of the tenses in the clause.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said another difficulty would
arise from the difficulty of knowing where the applicants
for relief had been residing.
Sir R. FERGUSON said that a third, and perhaps the
greatest evil would arise from the derangement to the
workhouse account, occasioned by the introduction of
this clause. He thought that some little time should be
given them for preparation.
Sir GEORGE GREY said that ample opportunity
Would be given to arrange means to meet the change
which would be rendered necessary.
Clauses up to 17, were agreed to.
Clause 17 was negatived.
After a few words from Sir J. D. Norreys, Sir G.
Clerk, and Lord Hamilton,
The ATTORNEY GENERAL objected to the
Powers, given under the present English poor-law, of
tanvitlg such cases into the Queen's Bench, by writ of
!eortiorari ; and he would rather take from, than give
tlreland the same power.
The House then divided, when there appeared,
For the amendment
For the original motion 73
Majority
The amendments were then agreed to.
LANDED PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
that the Lord's amendments on this Bill be read.
Mr. VITZSTEPHEN FRENCH said that the 135

ILf' it at present stood, would be inapplicable to three.
earths of Ireland.
Ther,, amendments were then read.
thr:',4o CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
1;,,, the first amendment of the Lords be disagreed to.
ord G. BENTINCK hoped the House would not
sent to the course proposed, but agree to the Lords'
.7amendments, as they had done to the Lords' amend•
vnents to the English Poor-law on a former occasion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said he
could not agree to the suggestion of the Noble Lord.
to recommended the amendments to be disagreed to
because they affected the pecuniary qualifications of the
Bill,
and were therefore an infringement of the
privileges of that House.—(Hear, hear.) As a
question of privilege. he considered this as a matter
of great importance ; and, notwithstanding what had
fallen from the Noble Lord opposite, he trusted the
House would not depart from the usage of all former
Houses of Parliament in cases of this nature.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said the Right Hon. Gentleman
had based the privileges of the House upon a very
narrow foundation. The Lords were allowed to inter-
fere in matters connected with local rates, and
as he considered the funds to be raised
under this Bill were to be applied to local and not gene-
ral purposes, he could not see why any questions of
privilege should interfere to defeat the amendments of
the Lords.
Mr. GOULBURN must resist the amendments of the
Lords upon the grounds stated by the Right Honourable
Gentleman. The peculiar privilege of appropriating
the public money was vested in the House of Com-
mons, and the House ought to be cantious that it
was not infringed. Suppose they were to agree
to these amendments, what might it not ulti-
mately lead to ? Why, it might happen that
,nen this House voted 5,000/. to the navy, and
;'°ol. to the army, the Lords might give this as an in-
stance for their reversing or altering that appropriation,
--(Rear, hear.) He must, thefore, decline to be a party
to allowing the House to agree to these amendments.
After a few words from Lord John Manners, Sir G
Grey. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Lefroy,
.„,
M. J. O'Connell, the amendments of the Lords were
rejected.
Upon clause 29 being read,
Mr. FITZSTEPHEN FRENCH objected to the
amendment, on the ground of its interference with the
privileges of the House, it being a money clause.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that he would move that that clause should be agreed to
by the House.
The clause was then agreed to.
Clauseamendedwas then read,
Th
-e CHANCELLOR Hof the EXCHEQUER moved
thaTthte amendment h
•
amendmente be
.disagreed to.
was rejected accordingly.
The followingto. two clauses, as amended, were agreed

Clause 55, with amendments, was also agreed to.
Several other amendments were agreed to, and seve-
ral rejected.
The Bill, as amended, was agreed to, and the report
ordered to be brought up
The House resumed. *
DESTITUTE POOR (IRELAND BILL.)
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX
CLISQUEIt, the House went into Committee upon
this Bit
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
what he now proposed with reference to this Bill was,
that a further advance should be made on the security
of the rates. Since August last 4,700,000/. was ex-
pended, but he wag happy to say the olds ystem, under
which this money
was distributed, had been nearly
entirely discontinued. The reduction which had been

made, was greatly complained of, but it was attended
with great success, for it was effected when it was de-
sirable that the cultivation of the soil should be attended
to. Great indisposition was shown to this proceeding.
They had every reason to believe that the resident pro-
prietary had endeavoured to keep the expenses within
the strictest limits, for the ration system brought the
conviction home to their minds, that they should
either employ the people upon their estates and farms,
or feed them in idleness upon the produce of them.
The system which had been pursued was to encourage
the volunt try principle ; and so far had it succeeded that
in many districts the wealthy had volunteered payments
to prevent the levy upon the poorer classes, with the
exception of some twenty• eight or thirty electoral over-
seers, the new system had been introduced throughout
Ireland, and it was progressing with the happiest result.
The Right Hon. Baronet then read statements from the
reports of Mr. Fox and others to show that there were
abuses when the food was given in kind, and that a
considerable change for the better might be anticipated
from the new plans of relief. He believed the course
adopted by the Government was the best that could have
been resorted to under the circumstances, and he hoped
the result would realise their expectations. The sum
he now applied for was 600,0001., and if it would be
necessary to have a larger sum before Parliament rose,
he would come down and ask it. The Hon. Baronet
concluded by proposing the resolution.
Sir J. GRAHAM said there were two points to
which he wished to call the attention of the Noble Ba-
ronet. Since August last it appeared that the sum of
4,700,0001. was expended in relief, one moiety of which
was to be repaid. Did he understand that the half of
this was to be repaid in ten years ? He wished to
know, also, as the Relief Act was in operation in 1,900
electoral divisions, and that the public works were in
operation in 68, and that 2,200,000 rations were daily
distributed, what was the estimate of the cost of all
this? Whether in every one of the 1,900 divisions the
rate would be struck, and whether it would be met?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
the estimate was 2id. per ration, and the total esti-
mated charges 2,651,0001. He had already stated that
4,700,0001. had been spent in the department of public
works, and would be payable in twenty instalments, the
first by next summer assizes. He believed that the rate
was already struck in every union, but they had no in-
formation as to whether it was being met.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM asked whether Government
could come again to Parliament for a second rate, until
the rate for the previous instalment was in the course of
being raised ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
had not made any statement to that effect.
Mr. AG LIONBY regretted when so great sums were
voted away for Ireland, that Members should not under-
stand how these sums were applied. The Government
had no idea what was doing in Ireland. Statements
were coming out accidentally in the Committee in which
he acted, and the schism it would seem which had oc-
curred in that country between the officers and the
employed were quite appalling. He assured the Go-
vernment that it would be absolutely necessary for them
to obtain more immediate and accurate information than
could be obtained by the ordinary printed reports. He
thought the most serious evils and abuses prevailed, and
thought that it would be incumbent on the Government
to adopt some such measures as he had recommended.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that the abuse spoken of
by the Hon. Member was the necessary concomitant of
the extraordinary measures which were adopted for the
amelioration of the miseries which had afflicted Ireland.
At one time the Government employed 750,000 persons
upon public works—a gigantic undertaking, such as no
Government had hitherto attempted. These great mea-
sures had been carried out without disorder, and the
people were kept at peace and in constant employment.
He believed that it was no matter of surprise that some
abuses had prevailed, for the operations carried on by
the Government were, he believed, altogether out of the
ordinary pale of legislative acts. He believed that no
Government could undertake to employ or to feed a
whole people, nor even such a portion of the population
as they had aided without much trouble and evil arising
from the measures which they adopted. He wished also
to correct the practice which existed of making sweeping
observations against the Irish gentry, for he knew very
many instances in which great personal trouble was un-
dergone, and great pecuniary sacrifices sustained for the
alleviation of the miseries of the starving peasantry.
In 1846 there were 100,6001. subscribed by private in-
dividuals, and from September, 1846, to May, 1847, they
amounted to 200,0001., so that there was not, therefore,
any want of public spirit on the part of individuals.
After a few words from Mr. AGLIONBY,
Mr. ROEBUCK said, that when he had heard the
landlords of Ireland spoken of as a class, he had heard
them described as not informed as to their duties; but let
that matter be as it was, he conceived that the Govern-
ment were departing from their legitimate functions in
their interference on the present question.
Sir J. GRAHAM differed somewhat from the Hon.
and Learned Member for Bath in his general statement
of the affairs of Ireland, and he fully sympathised with
the Government in the fearful emergency in which they
were called on to act. Still he thought it was time that
they reviewed their position, as he looked on the state-
ment of the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) as anything but cheering. There should
especially be no misunderstanding about the 600,0001.
row spent monthly in Ireland in various works. Steps
should be taken to get it paid back, and rates in all
cases where practicable under the present law should be
levied towards liquidating these advances.—(Hear.)
Mr. ROEBUCK wished to know whether the Go-
vernment were determined to enforce the payment of
irt
tha etroaar
appeared,l tdraes ja?d. successfully y
psoe
ser. a casesopposed gentlemen
h. . c
.collection
tlreland
on of had,the
RUSSELL said that the rates would be
enforced as far as possible. With regard to the ge-
neral subject, it ought to be recollected byl the Right
Hon. Baronet the Member for Dorcheker that
the time at which the Government
ilveaes called
to act was one of great emesgency. (
The case of Ireland was one of 5,000,000 of r,
depending on regular wages, but on the food Traphetililee t
themselves cultivated ; when that food failed, the statey
of society did not afford a remedy—society was dis-
organised. They had not to do with granite, but with
a loose, friable sandstone. The proprietors had no hold
on the affections of the people, the landlords were not
respected by the ecclesiastics, the loner classes were
excited by speeches which appealed to their imagina-
tions ; they were not affected by measures which were
directed for their benefit ; and however much the House
might admire the patience and constancy with which
they bore the calamity with which Providence had
afflicted them, they could not disguise the fact
that that evil had been considerably heightened
by their own want of energy an l f resight. It was urged
against the Government that they ought not to interfere
in a calamity like this ; it was urged that the Govern-
ment were travelling out of their way by introducing
measures to alleviate the sufferings which were daily ex-
perienced ; but when they found that these works
were successful in alleviating that distress—when they
found that much misery and much wretchedness had
been combated, he thought that the Government had
so far proved their wisdom in bringing forward such
measures. The abases attending the system adopted by
Government for the alleviation of this distress, had at
last the effect of inducing a better state of things, and
be trusted that the calamity which had already visited
that country, would, in conjunction with the poor-laws,
lay the foundation for a state of great and happier ex-
istence. He was still of opinion, that it was right for
them to adopt such measures as might meet the calamity,
and afterwards elevate the people in the scale of nations.
He hoped the House would grant its consent to those
sums; he did not ask the House to grant that consent
in•the expectation that no abuse would be exhibited in
the expenditure of them, but he could assure them that
the fullest attention of the servants of the Government
would be given to the proper distribution.
Sir D4NORREYS expressed himself satisefieuendouuli;asttublyde
statement of the Noble Lord, but still he could not help
sndinhattabt
feeling that the landlords Hon moefmlrbeelra
treated by many
particularly by thellonr.eaantdhLodeyarnoefd
tMheemlebredredforgßenattrh;
The truth was, the g
hilt
tnteh their bestere hteos e
tmei mitigate
all g
sides
s sufferings
dfa .
they
yheir efforts had not been so oceuff Irelandttheiesp,eand
npdl hadep,
suc-
cessful as they h t in all they did Govern-
tained no doubt whatever t a
ment was actuated by the be. st feelings and intentions
might otherwise have been. He perhaps their t .
was
.sipnege speech
coo fm thelt Hon.
oftowardsthing
things
Irelandtha
t;
unfortunatebu t t hei their ignorancecountry
hado t thele d
themreal stateinto
many errors.
a nd
the throughout
modeee con.ththeat
Gentleman
Afr ROEBUCKwho
ha jsaidust
stal
do
ot
down
firmation of what he had been ,
to the distress of that
wholewas ad soepstseido ni
ni n
and ordered to be
country.
The resolution was thent
reported to the House to-morro.
Ir
eia
nd) Bill was read
The Punishment of Vagrants (
a third time.
ht gr aiia Brnllry
, t to
elto
regulate
electors.
the
Lord
payment of rates and taxes by
limiting the time of
Mr. WARD brought in a Bill for
ienaee
Lord J. RUSSELL broug
service in the Royal Marines.
oTuhs
ae
aodr
jdoeurrsn
eodf theat a dayqua
rwt ee
two O'clock.
Hand I
rretothen disposed of, and the

The marked
of a ' .-her clia-
._____-----
wbZicEbisboalis
has induced him to put forth a productionnig
the fortunes of
racter, in the shape of a narrative, illustrating.b
'attTenlidEed thleAwßoTriksß.o—ithTe
the reign of the
Zenon, a Christian martyr, who livedtdurei
wghen so much at-
tention Emperor Domitian. At the present rnßairckheatc•ld Csuobebeeelsds,
Church, such a production cannot
the author gives an
narrating the advertures of his heroLourt,
as
well
a 3
of
is being paid to the early hfailismltoiey
beof wtheelceernht;i.stialnn
animated picture of the Emperor's C
many details of classical Rome during
ecially the
the habits and manners of his principal ntobbelesirasntdedinytarbodeeusceesf
Christianity. To the general reader, and esP , .
his attention far superior to those which obtaine , _
Christian reader, " Zenon" must therefore presentd cotatitanrsgeona
share of the public patronage to the histories of
Catchpole," and of' " Mary Anne Wellington."
EXTRACT OF A LETTER FROM GIBRALTAR DATED
t
MAY 21.—" The appearance of the Straits for the as
" Margaret
three days forcibly reminds me of the return from
Epsom on the day of the Derby. I scarcely think
it an exaggeration to estimate the vessels pressing on
at 1,000 ; upwards of 200 had been long anchored
at Frogerola, in sight of the Rock, distressed
for provisions and water. The French steamers
were extremely active in seeking out and taking through
the Straits all vessels in which Frenchmen were into •
rested, while England, with her boasted fleet of steamers,
• had only one lying here, with three leaky boilers, so
that if authorized to act she is compelled to be motion-
less. I fear a large portion of the English cargoes must
be heated, some of them arrived here having been loaded
130 days,'