The Sun.
London, England, 1847-04-27 00:00:00

as looking back with astonishment to the opposition offered
to the measure, and looking back with even greater astonish-
ment that this opposition should be offered in the name of
civil and religious liberty. But would not future ages look
back with still greater astonishment at the fact that
there were eight hundred thousand Catholics in this coun-
try, and that they were debarred the means of education.
Formerly the Catholics were only excluded with the Wes-
leyans and other parties from participating in the Government
grant; but now, when it was: proposed to exclude; them
alone, he considered them to be deeply injured and insulted.
They were excluded by the construction which Dr. Kay
Shuttleworth had put on the minute of council about reading
the Scriptures in the schools. He considered this a most un-
worthy course, and the motion which he had to propose was
to put an end to all ambiguity and doubt on the question. The
Noble Lord the Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire,
said the other night that when he became a Member of the
Committee of Council for Education, he found certain rules
in existence which he considered so important that he could
not consent to their being changed without the nt tice of Par-
liament. But he continued to say that if a notice fur
giving aid to the Roman Catholics were communicated,
he would continue a Member of the Committee. It was for
that purpose, he (Sir W. Mole:worth) had given notice, and
hoped the Noble Lord would give him his vote. He expected
also the votes of the Hon. Members for Dorchester and Tam-
worth on the ground of the liberal sentiments by which they
had committed themselves to the country, and the Roman
Catholics the other night before the House. Now,it was said,
it was not expedient to meet this question at the present mo-
ment; who were to blame for that?—why Government, for
bringing it forward at this moment. But why was it expe-
dient ? It was said that a general election was at hand—that
out of doors there was a strong feeling against Roman Catho-
lics. Well if there were was that House to participate in
such feeling. Were the Members of that House to be the
mere puppets of the elective body in carrying out
their wishes. For his part he believed that House were in
advance of the people, and he considered a seat in that House
was the highest honour that could be conferred on a man, pro-
vided he obtained it by fair means. He said, then, let them
do justice to the Roman Catholics first, and then go to the
hustings and command their constituents to confirm the Act,
and, by Heaven, he believed they would succeed.—( Cheers. )
The motion having been seconded,
Sir GEORGE GREY rose and said he would not detain
the House long in meeting the amendment of his Hon. Friend.
The Honourable Gentleman had twice risen to make this mo-
tion, but he had nothing to retract. He had pledged himself,
and he stood to the pledge, that a grant of assistance would
be given to Roman Catholics. The Hon. Gentleman had not
quite taken the right course to carry his proposition ; and he
thought it would be far better to leave the matter in the hands
of the Government, and when the minutes were framed for
the purpose it would be time to discuss the question.—
(Cheers.) For his own part, he would a great deal rather
that a minute was quite ready to lay on the table of the House.
The Hon. Gentleman had requested that there might be no
doubt, no ambiguity whatever, and after the speech of his
Noble Friend there certainly was neither. For his own part
he might say, that if it were possible to lay a measure before
the House this session, the Government would do so, but he
would not pledge himself on the present occasion.
Lord HARRY VANE thought that the Right Honourable
Gentleman was quite right in the course which he had taken.
He was gratified to learn that her Majesty's Government were
going to introduce a measure on the subject, and he thought
that the minute, when it was introduced, should state expressly
the course which the Government intended to take in carrying
out their intentions. He regretted that the Noble Lord
(Russell) did not bring forward the question before this, so
that it might be set at rest. But after the discussion which
had taken place, he thought that no time should be lost, and
he trusted the declarations made to-night by two Members of
the Government would be satisfac orb and that during the
present session the minutes would be brought forward. He
would, therefore, recommend to the Hon. Gentleman the pro-
priety of withdrawing his motion; as under the circumstances,
he did not think it wise that he should proceed.
Sir ROBERT INGLIS opposed the motion, and he did so
on the merits of the question itself, irrespective of any other '
consideration. He would do so; no matter by whom the
question might be introduced, or at what time, or under what
circumstances. He objected to it, because he believed it to be
the narrow end of the wedge, by which it was sought to injure
the great Protestant interests of the country. He hoped he
might tell his Right Hon. Friend (Sir R. Peel) that not all
his protection, nor all his support, would enable the Noble Lord
to carry a measure of concession to the Roman Catholics, which
was inimical to the constitution of England, and the great
mass of the people. The great body of the people
were opposed to any further concession, and he ap-
prehended that any measure of that kind would be
hailed with the greatest disapprobation. According to the
report of the returns of Catholic marriages made by the Regis-
trar-General, the total number of Catholics in England was
less than 300,000. That report only gave 2,230 marriages
celebrated among the Catholics in 1844, and from the circum-
stances of Catholics elevating marriage into a sacrament, it
might be presumed that they would have all their marriages
celebrated in churches. He thought that when they had
heard the statements which had been made by the Secretaries
of State and the first Lords of the Treasury of the present and
late Government, that every exertion would be made to carry
this measure of concession to the Roman Catholics; but he
thought that the people of England would be too powerful for
them and would successfully resist any measure which had for
its object the payment of the Catholic priesthood in the exten-
sion of the public money to Catholic education. He would re-
sist any further concession, and he could not allow the speech
of the Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of State to pass, without
liberating his own conscience, and recording his determinatior.
to oppose to the utmost all measures of further concession.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said that whenever his Hon. Friend
expressed any opinions in that House, however emphatic might
have been his declaration of them, so great was his (Sir R.
Peel's) respect for his integrity that he alwaes believed that
he expressed them with sincerity. He could not, therefore,
but believe that he would have shown more of courtesy and of
truth had the Hon. Gentleman extended to others the same
justice. For his own part, in the sentiments he gave ex-
pression to a few hours ago he was only influenced by a desire
to act equitably towards all, and the only object he had in view
was to extend equal justice to the different classes of her Ma-
jesty's subjects. His Hon. Friend imputed to him a wish to
outbid the Noble Lord at the head of the Government in an
attempt to conciliate the Roman Catholics and liberal parties
He could assure him, however, that this was not the case. He
had no such object in view, and if he had, he greatly feared
that that was not the move by which it could be
best accomplished.—(Hear.) In giving expression to the
opinions which he did, he had only looked to the justice of the
case, and be apprehended that to the course he took he
rather subjected himself to the loss of popular favour. His
Hon. Friend said, that the entire number of the Catholics of
England was only 300,000. Now, if that were the case, he
would like to ask him what political purpose he could have to
serve in trying to conciliate this small number, who were but
the 148th part of the population. He did not think also, that
any measure in their favour was exceedingly popular in that
House, for he recollected that, not a week since, a measure of
concession towards them was lost by a majority of thirty-nine.
It was his decided opinion that the minutes ought to be made
to embrace the Roman Catholics as well as the other religious
parties proposed. Still he had no wish to press it, so as to embar-
rass the Noble Lord at the head of the Government. His ex-
perience of official life was too recent for him not to know the
difficulties which must surround the Government in dealing
with this question. The position of the Minister was different
to that of an individual in that course. An individual could
easily state a plan or bring forward a measure to carry out a
particular policy; but a minister had to consider all the cir-
cumstances by which he was surrounded, and his official re-
sponsibility, ere he could agree to such a course. At present,
therefore, he (Sir Robert Peel) was content with the mea-
sure, and while he had taken the earliest opportunity of stat-
ing his opinion in favour of the Roman Catholics participating
in the grant, he would not be a party to
any vote colculated to embarrass the Government. He
would hope, that after the speech of the Right
Hon. Baronet at the head of the Home Department, on this
matter, that the present motion would not be pressed.
After that statement, and the pledge of the Noble Lord to
introduce a special minute in order to embrace the Roman
Catholics, he thought the question might be fairly left in their
hands. Ilc agreed with them in not pledging themselves as
to any particular time, as it might embarrass them; it was
sufficient that for the present they were pledged to the prin-
ciple, and that they would bring forward a measure, after op-
portunity had been given them to maturely consider the
subject. He had seen enough of the difficulties of a Govern-
ment, under such circumstances, to admit of any other course
than this. Having made these observations on the question
before the House, he hoped the Hon. Member for Southwark
would not press his motion to a division.—( Hear.)
Mr. VERNON SMITH hoped the speech of the Hon.
Member for the University of Oxford would open the eyes of
the Government, and that they would at once act on their con-
victions, and bring in a measure to promote the education of
the Roman Catholics. He did not think there would be much
difficulty in framing a minute, as there were Roman Catholic
bishops waiting to be put in communication with them on the
subject. They had already an excellent ground-work in the
British and Foreign School system now in operation in Ireland.
The question ought to be settled now, without waiting further.
No doubt the "No Popery" cry would be again raised,
but the Noble Lord should pay no attention to that,
but act justly in the matter to all parties. At the present
moment, however, he trusted the Hon. Member for Southwark
would withdraw his motion.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL thanked the Hon. Member for
Southwark for making the motion ; for whatever it would lead
to, the discussion which had arisen on it must do good. What-
ever injustice the Government had done to the Roman Catholics,
in excluding them from the grant, they had believed in that
coarse they had done the greatest harm to themselves.
There was one point to which he was desirous of referring. It
was the treatment of the Roman Catholic prelates. They
ought to have been treated in an entirely different spirit, and
consulted in a more decorous manner than had been the case
One thing, however, he begged to insist on, notwithstanding
what had been said by the Hon. Member for the University
of Oxford, and that was, that the Roman Catholics should be
placed on the same footing as the other sects and portions of
this country. If the Hon. Baronet, the Member for South-
wark (Sir W. Molesworth) divided the House on this question
he should certainly vote with him, but he acknowledged that
be was not sufficiently impartial to give him any advice on the
subject ; but whether he came to the contest now, or at some
future period, he had fully entitled himself to the gratitude of
the poor both in this country and in Ireland.—(Loud cheers. )
Mr. LAW quite felt the difficult position in
which the Noble Lord (the Member for London) was placed.
But this much he would say, that he had well done his duty,
both to his country, to his party, and to the House. He had
himself given his ready support to the Government in the plans
which they had proposed, and he was quite ready to give his as-
sent to the defence of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
Tamworth, which was conclusereon the score of popularity ; and
whether he looked to the late divisions, or to the feelings out of
in stating that the plan was satisfactory to
dalolopra% hetie was hap
parties thePpcommunity.otestant community. But what was to fol-
low was a matter for future consideration, and whether the
plans to be hereafter brought forward were to be satisfactory
not only to the Protestants, but also to the Roman Catholic
o f question,t h e Dot ya
and
version
until
that
was
gto gentlemen, who took an interest on this occasion, it would be
was ascertained, it would be impossible to express any opinion
upon the matter; but this he might say, that whatever the plans
might be, that no plans, come from what quarter they might,
used
o rn o
t to
wasdiscuss.
yet
matter Whether
would be received with so much gratification as from him.
Yet he must reserve his guarantee till any of those plans were
uibtee premature
fairly before the House.
with whom he had acted, he had stood by the
oppo-
sition to those
ago, when he was engaged
side of the Noble Lord many years
Acts. The Hon. Mein-
in carrying the Corporation and Test
Mr. LIDDELL well remembered the time when, in
ber for Kerry • •
of charge on the Noble Lord, that he had neglected the
sort
general assistance, but to this the House, by its late
(Mr M. O'Connell) had endeavoured to fix a
principle of
divisions, had shown that they were decidedly opposed, and he
that seeing the difficulties to which the Noble Lord
was exposed,
toeadvantage,a
a f acto r
y thet n bringing
th
he felt it but due to him to say that on the pre-
sent occasion he should give his decided opposition to the mo-
tion say,
tion of the Hon. Member for Southwark.
e vrhole out
of
Mr. MORE O'VERRALL said that no body was mere
decidedly interested in the grant to general education than were
the whole of the Catholic body. but the motion of the Hon.
Member for Southwark had at least brought forth this benefit,
ex-
planations body. bad for many years knowevery Mem-
that
i t
had
whhaidc lat
i to
He least
t this
h