The Sun.
London, England, 1847-01-29 00:00:00

fir a long time, to the loss of the service which had been made by his Hon. Colleague should be
in which they were engaged. Referring again to the enough to justify an investigation, even if the other half
Justitia, he would mention the case of another poor were unfounded. The Right Hon. Baronet said that he
lunatic who had been ordered to receive two dozen. knew nothing whatever of this matter, ho bad not heard
These had not been all inflicted upon him of it before. It was the more necessary, there-
and the officer, whose duty it was to see their execu- fore, that he should grant an inquiry.—(Bear.)
tioner, said to him on seeing him shortly after, "I owe The lion. Member had made these statements, and his
you three dozen." There was another case of an public character was at stake.—(Hear, hear.) It would
unfortunate lunatic who was lyipg in confinement be monstrous, when so many helpless creatures were
in all his filth, his urine, and his ordure. looking to that House for protection, that that protection
The Hon. Gentleman proceeded to detail the bad treat- to which they had a right to look should be DOW withheld.
ment experienced by Wm. Theobald, who also belonged —(Hear, hear.) So zealous were our predecessors with
to the Justitia, and who suffered from epileptic fits and regard to inquests held upon the bodies of persons who
great weakness of body. Jams Brandish, a maniac, and died in prison, and so careful were they to guard againe4
Cooper, a nurse in the establishment, who had a bad the injurious prejudice of the authorities, and in order to
liver complaint and a bag of matter lying at the pit of prevent any deception or collusion between the parties,
his stomach, also nit t with the harshest treatment. that they always ordered that the jury. sr
Mr. Alderman HUMPHREYS asked if the cases pointed to inquire into the death of the prisoner
might not be over-coloured ? should be constituted of one-half prisoners, and the other
Mr. DUNCOMBE said that he had authorit for all halt' being composed of the inhabitants of the neighbour-
he stated:; and, with respect to the last case, the unhappy hood. He, therefore, entirely disaproved 'of the proPo-
individual declared at his last moments that he was a sition to appoint a Commission consisting entirely of the
murdered man. Henry Driver, a Milbank pri- authorities, to inquire into the subject. His Hon. Col:
soner, entered the hospital, on the 21st of May, and league had said that many persons bad died on board
died upon the 26th, four days afterwards. W hen he the hulks upon whom no inquest had been held, spa he
died he was taken down to the anatomy-room and (Mr. Duneombe) further stated, that the conduct of
hest
e
dissected, and his entrails were thrown into the river. medical officer was cruel, and brutal in the hg his
When the dissection was over the vacuum was filled up degree. Was that man, then, to remain in hit
with flannel, and sewn up in order to await the position without inquiry. It was due to the medics'
coroner's inquest to sit upon it.—(Hear, hear.) officer himself, if to none other, that an rove
s-
Now he would ask the Right Honourable Gentleman tigation should take place. Ile, therefore, or:
was that legal, was it not against the provisions of the nestly entreated, the High t Honourable Barone!
Anatomy Act, in which it was provided, that forty-eight the. Secretary of State for the Hume Department t°
hours must elapse before dissection tikes place, and reconeid, r the opinions to which he had given expres
more particularly so when a coroner's inquest is to take sion. It was the duty of the House to instituW t:
place. Nu medical man attends these unfortunate inquiry when such charges were brought before the_
beings in their dying moments—all was left attention of the House. What were the duties of' ta
to the judgment of convict prisoners, for the chaplain independent members of this House unconnected ble
never visits the sick. These nurses watch them with the any of the ties of any party or of the Government, ic,'
eyes of hawks, and as soon as life is extinct, the yet they were not to inquire into such cases ? This licnibes
warm body is drawn out and laid upon the floor, when was the great inquest of the natium'and should not i,
the bed is ransacked for money, or other articles which backward in the performance of its duty. He wow"
they may have concealed. Now, he would ask, was it repeat that he would not be satisfied with any
right that these unfortunate creatures should be thus inquiry instituted by authorities. They awe
exposed ? They were entitled to a portion of their never satisfactory ; everything was softened nov.vos
earnings, he did not know how much, but he believed or'extenuated, and the final result was, the Honss '°':
it was about sixpence a- week, and this was the satisfied, and did not consider any further investigatt?!
prey for which these nurses waited. He asked the necessary. The House would fail to fulfil those der'
Right Honourable Gentleman bad he any idea that which it owed to the most help by less of their fellow-
these things were done, or whether they could tures, if it did not grant the committee reqaired °` .
exist if there were a proper system of inspec- Hon. colleague. •
Lion. There is a feeling among those unfortunate Mr. B. ESCOTT thought that the public would 11.
creatures that they are allowed to die for the sake of be satisfied if the House refused to grant the coinsde,ittei
their bodies for the School of Anatomy. He wished It was stated that immoral practices existed in IN Iti
that a return would be given by the Inspector of Ana- wich Hospital. Under these circumstances he 5,111 ed
tomy as to the number of bodies that had been sent from certainly vote for the present inquiry. He slrso
the hulks at Woolwich, and their places of destination. that Honourable Members would abstain, 'er°est
He would prove that Dr. Bossy, when a coroner's in- passing any opinion upon a report presented only Zee
quest was about to sit, went round to the convicts and morning, and he was surprised that it should have 1,,e,
told them not to answer any questions which might be presented so suddenly to the House, with Out any ey":.
put to them by the coroner or jury, but to merit from the Government.
refer them to him (Dr. Bossy) for an answer. Sir GEORGE GREY said that it was only hee,
The medical officer had stated, that amongst the 600 it was desirable that the matter should be brought hew
persons employed in the hulks at Woolwich, only 11 had the House at as early a period as possible. teitiv
died. But he saw, from the last returns, the number Mr. FERRAND said that he quite agreed to
was stated to be 28, and, from private information, he the opinion of the Hon. Member for Finsbury as. ie
believed that it was 41. It was very possible • that the Commissioners being generally trumped Ilk gia,
future returns might make a change in this statement, was well known, that if a Commission was aPP°IOO
but it was quite impossible, after what he had stated to to inquire into any statement, that it would
_eehe , the
the House, that these returns made to Government, by only in private, and how could it be supposed tri,'.og?
the medical officer, could be at all relied on, as re- public would be satisfied with this mode of proceereeuse
spected the convicts at Woolwich.—(Talear, bear.) If Mr. HUME—It was most desirable, Oat that o'°•,,,es
they granted him the Committee, and the facts were should come to some decision on this question. e't the
proved, which he had alleged in the House that slid by the Right Hon. Baronet, that considerOgweee
night, and he would undertake to prove those facts. number of persons interested, and that the charges go,
if it were granted, it was quite impossible that this so grave that it would'be only right for the RighLbeee.
system could continue, or that the returns of Mr. Capper Baronet to allow that Committee, he thought, no)
could be received by the Admiralty, or that they could fore, thee that inquiry should take. place.—(Hear' title
long continue to be received as authentic documents. He On that ground he thought the House ought to insttoes
should conclude by moving for the appointment of a Se- this inquiry, and that fully sufficient and strong ret/a be
lect Committee to investigate the returns made to the had been adduced in support of the motion, Oa es.
Admiralty of the number of' convicts who had died at trusted that, as the Hon. Member for Finsbury 11 the
Woolwich daring the last year? tablished the grounds of his application. the
'
On the motion being put, Government would not refuse the Committee. A been
Sir G. GREY said that under the present circum- Mr. MUNTZ said that no attempt whatever hnour for
stances, he was quite unable to follow the made to answer the charges of the lion. Mein weted a
Honourable Gentleman through his details, but Finsbury, and the medical men bad never atter°, Pteths
he did agree with him, that if there reply. The Right Hon. Gentleman et the bean °A the
was any foundation for these details, that they Home office, might be satisfied that if he refuse
were quite unworthy of a Christian country. lie must inquiry, the feelings of the public would be enlist tbst
at the same time say that he had made the utmost in- favour of the convicts. For his part, he thougu'otber
quire- into the conduct of the medical officers at Wool- the medical men perpetrated quite as bad things ite„,eeet
wich Dockyard, and so far as he could aster- men—(Laughter)—and he trusted that the mediettiroyeell-
tain there was not the slightest foundation for Woolwich would not be sheltered under the niorrer
the serious statements which had been made to-night. ment wing, but that the perpetrators of those e.. wold
The Hon. Gentle man had spoken of corporal punish- ties would be given up, and that the Governine°,„' would
Inente. In a conversation which he had with his Right agree to this Committee, and that the delinque"„e that
Hon. Friend the Secretary for the Admiralty, he had be given up by the authorities; and he did hope
learned that the reports lately given them had only been this investigation would be permitted. diii
one corporal punishment inflicted during the last 4 years. Sir W. JAMES thought that such accusationsreteels
The Hon. Gentleman bad gone over his points without should not be lightly brought against such reesPt whey
giving him any previous notice of either their nature persons as Mr. Capper; and he conceived, flat sonlet
or details, and, of course, he had come there un- such grave charges as these were to b 3 made• t'.,eiiiiten
prepared to meet the statements of the honourable intimation should have been given to the G°'.oford,
Member. At all events, however, if the Honour and to the parties concerned, as also that full loole
able Gentleman would supply him with the names tion should have been furnished to the Rightl3°' le Or'?
a
of the parties who vouched for the accuracy of his state- man the Secretary for the Home Department' los t.
merit, the Hen. Gentleman might rely upon the matter well known that the Hon. Member for finsbourfees edtt
being fully investigated. At present, however, he could the habit of making these charges, and that be aw-
not accede,* the motion of the Honourable Ge,ntle. titularly fond of clap-trap speeches such le eabjeed
man, and,' after the exaggerated statements which, made that night. Had he fully considered 'Libelee Ye".
it had turned out, a former petition contained he would never have made such statements °s this Coin'
on this subject, he trusted Government would not be notwithstanding the desire which he felt!" ts differed',
taunted with refusing Committees in the face of serious [iliac° should have been moved for
and revolting accusations brought against particular manner, he trusted the Government'
public officnn-s. It was impossible to speak of Mr. but he warned them,
Capper in other. terms than those of high eulogy, as he the charges of the Hon. Gentle
that if granted, ^
we retl:uld grant dilf
man re 0
had devoted from forty to fifty years of his life to that an entire abolition of the system. °WstlllbildiSitieeB473°
'
, if the
department of the Government which had the manage. Mr. OW EN STANLEY perfectly' agreed that "if the
merit of the convict establishments. It was the things stated in this allegation were proved, and tes
intention of the Government to introduce a facts with respect to Jacob Dodge were made Opt
d,
Bill which would provide for the employment of they were stated to be last year and were substsenhe
convicts under as vigilant inspection as that employed this commission ought to be instituted, and that -OS
in the various prisons of the City. It the Honourable report of the commissioners was not satisfactory bite
Gentleman would furnish him with the par- House. But yet, in granting this inquiry, they ogst tbs
titulars of the cases which he had stated to be careful to substantiate the facts asserted, while ipoer
the House, or of others which might come with- same time he would desire that the results of thisbeeeek
in his own knowledge, he would institute tigation should bring out the whole of tlie I:frau:o
l 0101 e
the most searching and rigid investigation, but it would and that they would support the assertions ab
not be well to institute an inquiry unless it Member. . ino.a
were clear that there were grounds for melting Mr. EWART thought that this inquiry neer he tits
it.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped he would allow him at diately concerned the military departmentehlteendse,,
all events to institute an inquiry in the way he proposed. say that on an occasion like this, when an llinere-ed es_
He hoped, therefore, the House would not accede to the Member of Parliament produced such reasonS,24.elr
appointment of the Committee which the Hon. Gentle- duced such facts as those which had been seatei7t pel°es,
man had moved for. Hon. Member fur Finsbury, this inquiry oug oeitlw
Lord MAHON said, as the llon. Member had brought granted, and he should therefore vote or the g .
ahiCh
forward charges without furnishing his authorities. He of this Committee. 'pie' ere
could not expect her Majesty's Government to concur Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said, that if the-prinet_wo ,
in the appointment of a Committee. lie ought to rest the Right lion. Secretary had ventured to lay tt got
satisfied with the assurance of the Right Hon. Baronet to be acted upon, no independent Member of tfotitsrt
that he would order an ample inquiry into the would dare to make a statement that was not g, thotiKi
circumstances which he had detailed to the House, by some such authority. For his own part, i)Zooler
lie must say, with respect to the system of the hulks, as it was quite sufficient that an independent
_.'ir.ol4
hitherto conducted, it was in every one respect deficient; that Reuse made out a prima facie case for, inglit'e'lligt;i:t
and as a proof of that, he wenld refer to the fact, of title him to the committee which he sought.. the PO
the re-imprisonment of many an offender after dis- Hon. Gentleman had asserted that he was nt sod li,
missal. It' the House would refer to a report presented in of making assertions without sufficient preelitotiq
1842, by Mr. Capper, the superintendent, they would brought forward the case of the Milbank dents n,
find that the total number of prisoners confined at the The commission had only this morning asede2o 01_4.7
beginning of that year was less than 1,625, who had and therefore it was utterly impossible to tanbei c7,a
been previously convicted for various offences, and 487 servations upon it. lie would only remark the
known to have been before in custody. There were only mission consisted of Lord Chichester Lord Sol by elli,
1,450 who were not known to have been in prisons be- Mr. Biekham Escott, and the report was signe wes pee,
fore, and from this number must be again deducted those two out of three of the Commissioners, and he oserie
who had been imprisoned under different names, and had fectly content to rely upon the report of 01% ehe i
assumed an alias. That spoke volumes against the sys- sioners themselves, for a justification of 04 re! ,oi
tern ; but it was premature to discuss the question until which he had brought against Mr. Capper, ar,-; 01111 Z
the papers promised by the Right Hon. Gentleman statements which he had made. lie was dub- eted P 0
should have been laid on the table. He would only say, to stand by the facts which had been pnblishePi;sa be.ecit
in resieting the motion of the er fur Fins. was uite ready to rely on the report whichete Whille
bury, that he was not to be supposedpp to support the published for the justification of the stateineu ee 1.1 ~
system of the hulks if he voted in favour of the Govern- as an an independent Member of that House! :post;
merit on the present occasion. made in his place in Parliament. And if sucto/*/
Mr. AGLIONBY said he was by no means in favour lege as he assumed were to be denied to M e
of the hulk system, but at the same time that he made Members of the House, there would be an77,ediff tett
investigations which could only be substantis
inteitte ,
that statement he was very glad to hear that the system
had been in some degree amended, and although It was evidence to be adduced before such ,°°.tb 10
admitted that there were abuses, he was glad to bear as that which he now sought. "1 011
that inquiries were to be made. If the Right Hon. sped to the committee on post-officence 170
Member should feel it 'his duty to divide the House, he it should be recollected that , the evidence We its
should on this, as on former occasions, divide with him, never been made public, and therefore the Pate/01J
He .did not mean to impugn the conduct of the Right altogether in the dark as to whether the btu
Hon. Baronet, but when an Hon. Member in his place which he (Mr. Duncombe) had made were subettron se
made charges of this description, he must have satisfied or not, but it was evident that this investigetod OA
himself of their correctness, especially when it implicated, been useful, and that the statements which be
tool tha
were borne out by the fact, that it was understueolisher;
men by name. lie was happy to hear that' there
would be a commission to inquire into this case.—(Cries the power given for opening letters was to be at.", etee't;
of "No no.") Well, he had been misled by the allue and he thought that the secret espionage ougl:,`,l Ore
sion made to a commission by the Right 11,,n. Baronet be done away with. The Hon. Gentleman 5000,4
with reference to the Penitentiary , and which he un- that these statements ought not to be made,,The ti's
derstood by parallel reasoning would be granted in this communication having been previously ma`hee
.fleas
case. His objection to a commission was, that it -Would' Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for le..nieed.,,,
be private, and the public press would not be admitted. Department. They had had such a cue'lol7o ,:,
Who were interested in having this committee ? Was with the Home Secretary, and nothing ice 00;
it the parties accused, or the public ? He thought that suited from it ; but he repeated that ado tiro,' to
liance with the rule would entirely ~,s riittelejo
both were interested in having the matter sifted to the P
bottom. Even in justice to Dr. Bossy (as he believed rights of an independent Member of 41' jot it,
he was called), and the other parties connected with With respect to Mr. Capper, he would rep at?
he ,
him, he thought that the truth of these statements believed that Mr. Capper had not done his chli(4lo,
ought to be investigated, for surely they were as much ever much he regretted that circumstance! Right ta.
interested as any parties in the country. He knew me mission were to be appointed, he hoped the swigoelt Pile
thing of this case whatever ; he had never heard the Gentleman would be made one member and hd conellte
names of the parties, and the only ground on which he other, and himself the chairman. , He shota toe ecit,
voted for inquiry was, justice to all, by a public and im- by moving that a Select Committee be aPP°i•oolifired
mediate investigation. What object could there be in vestigate the condition of the convicts at cottr
the Right Hon. Baronet's refusing this ? lie (Mr. and to ascertain the number of deaths ail" esti.
Aglionby) confessed that he would rather that the Hon, amongst them during the laSt year. ,A, OP :ilia
Member for Finsbury had supplied the Right Hon. Sir G. GREY explained that he had had - chat co t%
Baronet with the dates and particulars of this case, at cation with the Hon. Member for FinsburY9 eter es -
,•,
the same time concealing the names of the accusers. not at that time pledge the Government to en
But even then all that the Right Hon. Baronet would the investigation which he desired.
. the
have done, would have been to have sent down these The House then divided. ailed
allegations, that they might be investigated ' • and, if On the re-entrance of strangers to the g . '
eeei
possible, contradicted ; and he would have laid that numbers were ascertained to be— - 44
contradiction on the table of the House, and expressed For the motion let
his belief in the truth of it. He should certainly divide Against it • ,
..____-.11 a
with the Hon. Member for Finsbury, if he pressed the Majority
10°.
House to a division. CHARGES AGAINST THE LATE Sg.,--re. 0.
Mr. WAKLEY said that after the statement which FOR THE HOME DEPARTIeIEc"e the 01..e0
his Hon. Colleague had made he was bound in justice to Mr. FERRAND then rose to bring forwat cans
press his motion to a division. His colleague had said tion of which he had iven notice, relative wie.,e Tie
that he believed the statements that had been madecharges which he
;
bad SO pray
how could he then fail in pressing his motion? He con- 1 cretary for the Home Departments He tiegitethe
fessed he was surpri:ed and disappointed with the obser- house for an inquiry into the truth of the aco of vs
vations of the Right Hon. Baronet. He thought it was he had to make, and ho asked the indelgenits 01
not for any Hon. Member to go to a Government office, House while he endeavoured to bring before mall
and there make statements which would be better ex- the
_grounds on which he asked for tchitretarispit,
pressed in his place in Parliament. He could not forget -In 1244 the Right Hon. Baronet the latevi'bee-t 1100'-eo.
:
that when Hon. Colleague had brought the abuses of State for the Home Department did him deed b, t be
the Post-office before the House last session that and what he would feel to the hour of his that V
b li 0 the.
the principal witness before the committee, a per- , an act of the most cruel injustice. He le Souse dat
son named Mitchell, was dismissed after he had would that evening be able to convince the
‘re be bsifr
held Ids office for ten years, and no fault bad he was justified in making use of the languks ato jovial;
been found with him. His lion. Colleague asserted that the meeting at Leeds, and that when he refusettee he „so
in the treatment of these prisoners erery point of the that language in the House, he did so heee,bet Ifewitt
law had been violated. lie (Mr. Weide)) confessed that by no right could he be called upon int: be eligo,
that he could not believe what Lau been stated with to answer or to justify any remarks whicm" hlic L)
, •to the 13° e th*
respect to the medical Officers.—(ghter.) But if make out of doors when examining in se ester .1,0
he did not believe that, it was no reasenti why an inquiry duct of a public officer. He did not intend wiort, for P.
Should ,not be demanded. One half of the allegation i evening into theconsiderationof the new Poor'Poor'